Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Thirty Seven


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719 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Thirty Seven

  1. And we come to the end of another odd collection of thoughts – and a new beginning for all – JDA

  2. Hi Tom B: You said, “I think that the ones who “solved” the first two clues were not convinced they had done so. If they were committed to their identified “where warm waters halt” location, I do believe they would have solved the remaining clues.”

    I disagree. I for one am committed to my WWWH because I know it’s correct and have not wavered from it since figuring it out over a year ago. I think it’s possible that some may have considered this spot without solving the clue in the intended way, and if so they wouldn’t be “sure.” Such people could grow discouraged after repeated failures and lose confidence that they had the right WWWH. But anyone who figures out Forrest’s word that is key will have no such doubts. In my opinion, the clues that follow are not easy, otherwise I would have found the chest a year ago.

      • CharlieM — I’ve made 3 BOTG trips to three separate end-to-end solutions in my zone. Obviously none have panned out. This is why I claim that clues 3-9 aren’t easy because I’ve found multiple clever interpretations, and yet none are what Forrest had in mind. So I have a long fall, winter and spring to come up with a 4th solution. I am not discouraged by the failures — if anything I’m a bit relieved because it means the puzzle is hard enough that I no longer worry that I have to rush out of fear that someone else will beat me to it.

        • My last botg, I was a little disappointed, but I never relegated to defeat, I’m stubborn that way. I knew I was missing something, that one important thing the blaze threw me off as well as in the wood. I still have the confidence that I am in the right area. Even though I believe I’m still in the right area. Even with that I’m going over and over to disprove my theory and still loosing sleep, I’m still very confident in my solve.


        • CharlieM: stubbornness and perseverance are necessary personality traits for success. I’ve been working on Kryptos for over a decade with no intentions of giving up. By comparison, I’m just getting warmed up with TTOTC. 😉

          • Zap, I agree with JDA in believing the word that is key doesn’t help us in figuring out the first clue. I believe that because f has many times told us his best advice. That beat advice, paraphrased here, involves looking for hints in ttotc to help with the clues in the poem. In this link below he says something very interesting about the first clue in conjunction with finding the hints.


            That quote starts @ 49:45

            Personally, I think the word that is key helps us figure out the blaze. I think the majority of us would pass the blaze and not give it a second thought.

          • Hi FD: thanks for the audio link (I hadn’t heard it in a while, but pretty much know Forrest’s advice in it by heart via transcripts). And I definitely follow Forrest’s advice. My keyword isn’t found just in the poem; it’s in both books, dozens of Scrapbooks, multiple MW Q&As, and elsewhere. But that said, in my opinion he supplies subtle hints to lots of the clues, not just WWWH. Hints for the blaze and home of Brown are there too, in my opinion naturally.

            But when Forrest says “only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key,” how could that be for the blaze? That would imply (at the time he made the statement back in February 2014) that those few must have solved more than two clues, which contradicts his claim that no one then had gotten past the first two clues. No, the word that is key logically must refer to the first or second clue — pr even both.

        • What I don’t get from you Zap is how you can be so sure you nailed down the first clue…

          I mean, I get the poem is difficult, and more than likely, not as easy as some hope the later clues might be, Yet, fenn has said the clues do get easier [ I assume once we have the first few clues ]
          And fenn has said the one who finds the chest [ again, assuming all the clues are solved ] will not feel lucky but ask, what took me so long?
          And fenn has said the path… certainty for the one…

          So I’m a bit baffled to how you can say you know you have the correct [ and by fenn’s indications, the one clue we all need or stay home clue ] and still be so stumped as to have multiple trips under your belt and still no correct solution?

          Stubbornness and perseverance… it’s great to have the determination, but it’s a killer to unchangeable. The only fact we know of as to date is; those who deciphered, indicated, been etc. the first couple clues and the location of all the remaining clues and the chest … “didn’t know” they had the first couple of clues [by fenn’s comments].

          I’m not saying you’re deliberately contradicting many of the AFT comments… but your post doesn’t seem to line up with any of them. I don’t care what your thoughts are on your interpretation of wwwh is… however, I am curious to how you could ‘know’ you have it [ the clues fenn says we need to nail down or stay home ] and still not find the chest, after-all this time?

          I’m being very serious… “knowing” this clues seems to be the golden ticket… so what’s the problem?

          • Hi Seeker,

            “What I don’t get from you Zap is how you can be so sure you nailed down the first clue…”

            I guess I would counter your question by asking why you think I wouldn’t be sure? After all, Forrest has essentially said that if you don’t have that first clue nailed down, don’t bother leaving home. By “nailed down” I don’t think he means you have some wishy-washy, fingers-crossed feeling that it’s probably right. I take nailed down to mean you’re as positive as you’re ever going to be, short of Fenn telling you you’re right.

            “… Yet, fenn has said the clues do get easier [ I assume once we have the first few clues ]”

            Since Forrest knows all the answers, he’s not in the best position to judge what’s easy and what’s hard for others. I’d say the fact that people long ago figured out the first two clues, but after 7 years no one has the chest is pretty solid empirical evidence that the clues don’t get easier, or that at least one of them is a choke point.

            Now, from a perspective of geographic scope, the possible clue answers are much more constrained if you have the starting point vs. the vastness of the Rockies. So in that sense, the clues are “easier” since you’ve probably eliminated 99% of the colored map with those first two clues. But if there is some backwards-bicycle riddle to solve, the answer could be staring you in the face and you won’t see it because you aren’t thinking the right way.

            “So I’m a bit baffled to how you can say you know you have the correct [ and by fenn’s indications, the one clue we all need or stay home clue ] and still be so stumped as to have multiple trips under your belt and still no correct solution?”

            Because my brain is wired differently than Fenn’s. I’m sure I’ve come up with solutions he would never dream of.

            “Stubbornness and perseverance… it’s great to have the determination, but it’s a killer to unchangeable.”

            Surely at some point you’ve had a moment of clarity in your life where you figured something out and knew it was correct. That you would no more question it than question that the earth orbited the sun. That’s the sort of certainty I’m talking about with WWWH. It’s not like I don’t know what the other options are out there — before that moment of clarity I had spent over a thousand hours poring over 5,000+ topo maps in three states. That brute force approach would never have worked. The correct answer is the “Duh” answer.

            I get the feeling that you think just having WWWH with a high degree of certainty should be some kind of golden ticket to the whole kit and caboodle, and that since no one has the chest, the only logical conclusion is that those who figured out WWWH simply didn’t know it. But I don’t share that point of view. Anyone who figures out the keyword and goes on to figure out WWWH would never consider another spot.

            I wish I knew how many others have suggested my WWWH to Forrest, and of them which ones got there with a keyword and which ones simply guessed right. It is possible to do the latter, but those searchers would have no certainty, and repeated failed searches would probably cause them to move on to a different WWWH.

          • Zap;

            Just about the time I start to think that MAYBE you have something going, you say something like, “have suggested my WWWH to Forrest, and of them which ones got there with a keyword ” For me, and I could be wrong, but my keyword has absolutely nothing to do with wwwh. As long as you see a connection, in my book, you are barking up the wrong tree. You MAY have accidently found the correct wwwh, but your keyword IMO is wrong. But that’t just me. JDA

          • JDA: it should be no surprise that you and I have different keywords since you search in Wyoming and I search in Montana.

          • Have you ever been curious as to why Fenn ever mentioned a key word.
            This additional piece would be counterintuitive to Fenn goals, so why give it without being asked?
            His goal is to seek a long life of the chase, so why try to put a neon sign out there that screams find me sooner?

          • Hi JDA – Maybe you, Zap, and I could sit down and break some bread over the correct path to the the treasure chest. You would have to look at the chase from a different angle though.

          • W.R. ~ “… so why give it without being asked?”
            Q ~”…Does it make you think the chest might be found earlier than first thought?
            A~”Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key. The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated.”
            [The full Q&A can be found on MW’s]

          • Seeker, so a simple yes, sure it’s possible, or any other affirmation could have answered this question. How is “but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key” relevant to this question? It offers nothing but a big neon light to a yes answer.

            Does excluding this change it?
            Q ~”…Does it make you think the chest might be found earlier than first thought?
            A~”Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated.”

            Again, perhaps from one that can give serious thought, why was this tidbit offered without being prompted?

          • W.R.
            Why was the information given…? well, he answered a question the way he wanted to, is the simplest answer. But I get what you’re saying.
            Yet, fenn has done [ for lack of a better term ] tactic before. The one off the top of my head was replying to a question [ given to him by a blog owner who passes on searchers questions for fenn’s considerations ] about the blaze in the poem or only in the field? He replies by telling us he took 30 mins. to not answer the question, right?

            LOL, why did he bother sending that back to the blog owner for posting… I’m pretty sure he doesn’t give a response to all the questions given to him… well, at least four of mine anyways… But here’s a thought. IF and that’s a big IF the first clue is so important to nail down, and folks have deciphered that clue [ and not realizing, or understand it ] maybe the word that is key is about the first clue?
            LOL maybe fenn is just as dumbfounded as I am about; how some can decipher this clue and not know they did, and walk by everything else, and gave us a hint to digest?

            Fenn didn’t have to give us ” the Rocky mountains ” as “the” mountains N. of SF… but he did. And he did, knowing that other searchers were looking in Nevada and other places outside the RM’s.
            Fenn could have said nothing about Canada being missing on the map in the tftw book… yet, that was almost the first thing he mentioned about that book/information.

            There are a lot of things that puzzle me about things fenn has said and ‘not said’… lol…if I truly knew what anything really meant, you and I would not be chatting right now.

          • Seeker,
            Thanks for an actual answer.
            I have two possibilities as to why,
            1 he is selling the need to engage with the chase, as in hurry up people are getting close, so get on out there…. I have the 200/500ft in this category as well.

            The other would be as you eluded to as well. Nailing down the 1st clue. So the key word to that is, where.

            Whete, doesnt have any mystical properties to it, just serious thinkiners ponder where wwh and thereby it falls in line with his other phrases of the 1st clue. People assume it’s some word, alone, halt, etc etc, but chances are there isn’t any and it’s just a reference to this.
            Obviously only Fenn knows for sure, but when asked to clarify statements that were vague, the follow up statement isn’t too far from the original.
            But because he said ponder a key word, the rabbit hole was created, I guess it’s up to those who wish to fall into it or not.

          • WR, that is a good question and I wonder if before that comment there was any public discussions about a word that is key. Was he leveling the playing field?

          • i def agree WR – it doesn’t seem logical that a man puts 15yrs into a 1000yr riddle, then presents a “keyword” that potentially holds no substance – albeit i’m past naive enough to believe it’s a silver-bullet either, tbh

            but if i had to bet my last dollar, i’d bet it’s a word contained within the poem

            (…umm SL? can i please borrow another dollar? ..& nope, def not for gambling!! 🙂 )

          • Seeker and zap…no one will “know” they have the first clue…until they get to the end and retrieve the chest. Fenn has said that…and implied it. So, anyone who thinks that they “for sure” have the first clue and more, are just prolonging their fantasy. It is great to have confidence, just read all the search stories… confidence is always the beginning….then things change in a hurry.
            Being ready to adapt…and move on to other ideas is going to produce the “correct” solve. I appreciate all the ideas presented here(most) and especially look forward to the “what ifs”…but for Pete’s sake…don’t come here and say “I know for sure” repeatedly and expect harmony and good feed back.

          • Hi Ken — if you really want to get down into the nitty gritty, philosophically no one actually “knows” anything because reality is filtered through that individual’s 5 senses and life experiences. So yes, I don’t *know* that my WWWH is the same as Forrest’s because I’m not inside his head, nor was I a witness to him hiding the chest. But we also don’t *know* the chest is in one of the four states Forrest has indicated. We take his word for it, else why waste years working on the puzzle?

            When people are sufficiently confident of a fact, it is a common colloquialism to say they “know” it, because it is less cumbersome than saying they know it beyond a reasonable doubt. For instance, I’m sure a lot of people would say they “know” O.J. Simpson killed Nicole Brown Simpson and Ron Goldman, even though the only living person who really knows is the killer.

            So it isn’t helpful to keep repeating the obvious that no one will know they have the right WWWH until they find the chest. (And in fact, this statement isn’t even true. Someone could conceivably find the chest by accident, or even having a wrong (but nearby) WWWH.) All that matters is that a person has a high enough level of confidence that they have “nailed down” that first clue (Forrest’s words) that they are willing to commit the time and expense to test their theory. Frankly, it amazes me that so many people trek out in all four states with some really arbitrary choices for WWWH with the thinnest of support. That’s one of the great advantages of Dal’s website: you can gauge the quality of your own solution against those that have come before you, and for that I’m thankful that so many are willing to share their adventures and solutions.

            “Being ready to adapt…and move on to other ideas is going to produce the “correct” solve.”

            Yes, but that adaptability must be wise enough to separate the wheat from the chaff, and not throw out the baby with the bathwater. Consider Dal’s case: when his first use of Madison Junction as WWWH didn’t pan out, he didn’t wipe the slate clean. He pursued alternate hoBs, and for all I know he’s still pursuing solutions that start with that spot. The searcher that is willing to reject ANY of their ideas is not going to be the one that finds the treasure.

        • Zap – time not searching in fall / winter is some of the best “down” time for research and developing possible solves.

          • Covert One: totally agree. It’s actually relaxing knowing there’s no time pressure. That said, I’ve already researched this thing to death; there’s nothing Forrest has written that I haven’t read 10 times already. But I am looking forward to checking out the new book.

          • Me too Zap! I think the new book will provide several months of good material to pour through.

            What I am really curious about – will the new book change my solve(s) in some significant way? We shall see….

        • I’m still in that “rush out and find it state” Zaph so I understand your feeling. I too am confident my location is part of the solve, but I’m not confident I’ve solved the poem completely. I keep finding tangents that wrap back around…it’s never ending….yet exciting. Best of luck.

          • Hi Copper: with so much raw material from Forrest, you can almost pick any point in the Rockies, find some support for it in the poem, and then go digging through the books and Scrapbooks discovering all sorts of “connections” to whatever general area you’ve settled on. The more imaginative and persistent you are, the more “matches” you can find.

            So, having read all this material over and over to the point of knowing much of it by heart, I’m mostly back-burnering it for now. Instead, I’ll spend my winter trying to unravel the methodology for using the points on the map that I’ve married to clues in the poem. I’m sure up to now my solutions have been a bit too clever for my own good. I need to simplify. Forrest is not complicated; for the most part he’s a straight-shooter. So best of luck to you to in the Chase off-season!

          • Hi Sherif: sure. The first part of my moniker traces to Mr. Beeblebrox, Ex-Galactic President of Hitchhiker’s fame. No one has ever asked about the 5-digit suffix nor guessed its significance, but I will say it is not random.

          • I looked up the Zip last year and it was Oklahoma. But then I think someone said your work in Cally.

          • I think I know what the 5-digit code stands for zaphod73491, but I don’t want to say it here because I think it might expose your real name. If that’s right, let me know 🙂

          • Sounds like you’ve got it, Jeremy, which makes you the first. I appreciate your not blurting it out for the reason you indicated. 🙂

          • First let me say that although I thought we were in the same biz generally I am surprised by how closely we are related.

            Second searchable or not no one should print anyone’s name including Zaps!

          • I meant zaph could email me, geeze. 🙂

            Seeker, your initials, BY, obviously means your real name is Bigfoot Yeti.

          • It’s an open forum with approx 500-600-700 hits a day… Nothing real secret about it, right?
            You guys don’t think others are attempting the same thing right now.
            Pssss, was I right? what do I win…

          • Hi Sherif/Lug/Jeremy/Oz10 and anyone else lurking. Yes, it is certainly Google-able with little imagination. The point is that in 2 1/2 years no one did. Newcomer Sherif posing the question apparently was enough to generate the necessary
            intrigue for some to investigate.

          • Zap –

            Actually is was our smug response to him that prompted us. You literally challenged us.

            Anywho, D and G will clean it up.

          • oops, I google everything so I did know for a while… I thought you knew it was out there. Yes delete these posts…

    • Well said my friend;

      That’s what we need to see more off, chasers having a bit more confidence in there solves.

      Ronnie the Scot

    • Zap. How far past warm waters have you gotten? Do you have a home of Brown that you are committed to?

      • Hi TomB: all of my solutions have had answers to all nine clues. I’m confident many of them are correct, but that there is some overarching theme or ordering that I’m missing that puts all the pieces together. (I admit to harboring some hope that Forrest might have been referring to me when he said that no one had given him all 9 clues in the right order.) As to your last question, I have a hoB that I favor; the trouble is that there are three others in the immediate vicinity that Forrest could just as easily have intended.

        • Zaphod,

          I’m really confused, at the first you say you are confident, then you think your missing something, then you say you have a HoB that you favor and there are 3 other HoB.

          How can you say your confident when you are waffling between 4 HoB, how is it many of the clues are correct when you can’t fully identify HoB?


        • CharlieM: I’m not confident about my entire solutions since none of them panned out. My confidence is restricted to WWWH, canyon down, and the significance of NF,BTFTW. Those I will not change. And I have several additional landmarks that I’m pretty sure play a role. What I lack is the big picture solution of how to put it all together.

          • Zap –

            I wasn’t guessing. I was wondering if you had come to realize Anaconda is the home of Brown. I am referring to the actual person the poem is referring to.

            When I read that the person Brown’s Descent was written about was from Anaconda I thought hmm, that’s interesting.

            Also your response leads me to belive that your solve takes place all in one county. That separates you from the many people starting at Madison junction and then heading out into Montana.


          • Yes, there are many who follow the poem into Montana (from Madison Junction). Time will (or might) tell if this strategy is successful or not. IMO

          • Hi Lugnutz: I’m going to hold off on saying whether all my clues are in the same county, but I will confirm that Madison Junction has nothing to do with my solution(s). I know lots of folks are fond of Madison Junction for reasons that Dal and others have explained many times. It’s certainly better than all the singular warm waters that empty into colder bodies of water. But the big picture answer is better.

          • Zap-

            I mean to say that I would bet your solve is more compact than the chasers driving from WWH at MJ to say HoB W of Hpen Lake.


          • Lug, Anaconda is mine. I would have to charge you a toll if you go. Pay at the hardware store in town. If you would like to pay in person, please take Veterans Memorial Hwy to Evergreen st. turn left and park in the church parking lot. Fifer Gulch is gated off, no motorized vehicles, so you’ll have to walk from there. Don’t worry about the no trespassing gate just inside the tree line about a mile and a half in, some locals go hiking this way towards Hearst lake, I’ve done it so you don’t need to be scared or anything. Lil Indi may not follow, but you’re good to go. Only one way in/out so hope you don’t get lost. Sure you wont. I’ll meet you at the blaze, since you can’t initially see it. I’ll be using marvel gaze so bring some hot dogs and buns. We could use the “Y” stick that is there. Just have to remember not to throw it away since it still can be used. I’ve done the math so know where it is exactly. So we come to the payment amount. Simply, I’ll be tired and will need a piggy-back ride back to the church. I’m 6’1″, 230, plus the chest, plus misc other items (the bell for one), you can handle about 300lbs, right?
            So, if you are going to venture into my area, start working out.:)

          • Well I like it Charlie.

            I have had several reasons to look at Anaconda and she is always on my mind.


          • Lug, A place that is dear(deer) to him.Deer Valley.
            To rest his bones, Deer Lodge.
            Whole area is considered part of the Yellowstone geyser system, just dormant now.The end I sever drawing nig/h, Mount Haggin. Lil Indi can’t get pass the treeline, no trespassing gate. The hardware store that use to be a train station right near Warm Spring Creek, on Veterans Memorial Hwy. And of course, the landscape blaze that initially cannot be seen. No go in November though. Yes I tried once, not one of my brighter moments.Oh, and if you have Google Earth, match up the landscape with the gold nuggets on page 133.30,000′ perspective would be about right.

          • Zap –

            I was on the 7th floor of the high rise I work in. The receptionist is named Izzy.

            I zyy told me we have a new parking garage we can use that costs less than the one we have been using.

            My hand to god she said

            “It’s not far, but it’s too far to walk, right?”

            The new garage is .3 miles or in Chgo we say 3 blocks.

            When she said the word “it’s” is was almost imperceptible. Sounded like “buts too far”

            What are the odds?


          • Lug: in the Windy City on a crisp February day, I would have to say 3 blocks might very well be too far to walk. 😉

          • Being one who spent February in boot camp in Great Lakes, just north of Chicago, I can attest to this. Marching and running in snow and ice long distances is too far and not worth the cold.

        • Zap. Not to say that your starting point is incorrect, but I believe home of Brown is unique and should stand out once the location of where warm waters halt is identified. If the one you favor is similar to the other three in the area, then I would have reservations. Just my opinion.

          • I have 4 spots that could reasonably be construed as hoB solutions. One is stronger than the others because it’s precisely identified in the poem and strongly hinted at in TTOTC. But the others can be made to work so I still hold them in reserve.

          • kudos TomB – hoB appears to be the juggernaut ‘clue’ and should be obvious within any potential search area IMO, otherwise canasta looks far more exciting. I always find it interesting how FF tends to avoid hoB and redirect searchers towards wwwh. So, I can only conclude that any solve lacking a knock-your-socks-off hoB needs another wwwh (and another hoB).

          • Matt. Yes. I believe that “Home of Brown” is THE clue to solving the poem. It’s not the first clue in the poem, but it’s the clue I located first. Doesn’t mean that I am correct. That’s just the way I see it.

          • TomB: just as a reminder, Forrest doesn’t think your strategy will work: “I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly. f”

          • Hi Tom B: all I’m willing to say at this time is that each of the blazes that I’ve considered were named, natural landmarks.

          • Mr.Zap—I’ll tell Deputy Katie to watch out for you. I hope you’re a straight shooter.

            Best regards

            one f Billy

    • For me…after choosing a WWWH, I eventually came across a spot that fits the clues in the poem to a certain location and then the location was confirmed by a certain word that I think is key.


      Because the clues took me to the spot and then:

      – if you figure out the riddle for the location…..and it comes up with the same “word” that represents the location you are at, then right there
      – it can and is a logical assumption that the spot is viable and probably the location one needs to be at in order to find Indulgence.

      Cheers and good luck!

    • HMA –

      Half the book TToTC is about New Mexico. He has lived there for half his life. He has done the majority of his solo flying in that state. Its the only state he has owned a home in. He owned San Lazzaro. He built his fame and fortune in New Mexico. He wrote each of his books in New Mexico. His family lives in New Mexico.

      He chooses not to live in Montana. He has mentioned going to Montana in the second half of his life rarely. He has been th Colorado and Wyoming more often than Montana.

      Why Montana? One summer he did some logging for a couple of weeks? Went fishing west of West Yellowstone a couple of summers?

      Hell even the most significant stories with Skippy take place south of Montana. The drive home is in Wyoming . The Ford vs Buffalo Cody?


      • Lugnutz: Over our married life, my wife and I have chosen to live in three different places including a number of years across the big pond. One of these places is our not-so-secret favorite where we lived the shortest amount of time. We’ve had occasion to revisit and we’ve discussed moving back but it’s too far from our children, grandchildren and extended family. Your analysis might prove true. For me, it’s a very slippery slope doing it this way to narrow down and identify ff’s special place. I tell myself to stick to the poem – and that hasn’t worked well for me yet, as well!

        • KidUtah –

          I was responding to HMA who said he doesn’t understand why Fenn might find New Mexico important. He actually suggested I should go back and read the book, which he thinks is all about Montana, I guess.

          Also this is a great spot to mention that revisit does not mean visit again. It means reconsider. So when the school kid asked have you revisted the spot he said NO even though he has been back there. I missed an opportunity to mention this yesterday.


          • Lugs,
            How did you get reconsider from revisit?

            Revisit always ment going back to something in some form be it a location or thought process.

          • Yup, you revisited it. But the answer is still flawed. Doesn’t mean you reconsidered anything.
            We can revisit this all day, and you still wont reconsider.

          • Lugnutz: Got it. Thanks. By the way, from your other post, sounds like you plan to ride a Harley to a special place. Or am I mistaken?

          • KidUtah –

            My wife would never allow that.
            Do you recall what I said that made you think that?

            Feel free to just recall don’t worry about the quote.


          • Lugnutz: Seems your wife and mine think alike. For me, the choice between a Harley and her presented itself over 40 years ago. To be honest, it was a no brainer for me cause I had met the thrill of my life and got to keep my El Camino SS! To your question, comments related to Anaconda, MT being home of Brown for professor whom Brown’s Descent supposedly was written about. I tried to make a little play on words – guess I didn’t do too well.

          • W.R.
            Revisit; consider (a situation or problem) again or from a different perspective.

            Fenn answered two questions about the treasure… the third he was asked if he revisited the place. The answer of “No” can mean he [ fenn ] did not ‘reconsider’ the place where he hid the chest… didn’t change is perspective of the place, didn’t consider another place, or action.

            If you noticed prior to answering any of the kids questions, fenn said he would answer them the way they were asked. IMO. this was a teaching lesson for the kids [ and adults ] to think about word usages.

            Hence fenn’s Q&A from a SFpodacast “… I looked up words and definitions of words and changed them, went back and rebooted… it turned out exactly like I wanted.
            “Now I will test you Wordsmith. Write down the full definition of the word “several.” Then Google it and learn that many of us don’t fully understand some of the words we use every day.f ”

            You might want to revisit Lugnutz ‘response’ for reconsideration.

          • Seeker
            So answering the question as presented, goes from the kid wanting to know if Fenn went back to the location, to Genn answering a completely different question by reading into the kids question so he can give a completely different meaning than the one being asked so as not to confuse the kid but all the while knowingly confusing searchers would would pick up the fact that revisit doesn’t actually mean reconsider but to go back to to assume it’s reconsider because the kid used the wrong verb?
            Wow, that is quit the thought process.

          • W.R.
            That’s the point I was making and what I think Lugnutz was pointing out… fenn didn’t read “into” the question… he read it as “presented.”

            This is one of the reason I have pondered ‘Becky’s’ unanswered, but deliberately posted Q&A.
            Fenn could have answered, both, neither, one or the other… but he saw something in the question that gave him pause, imo. One thought is… the poem is the Blaze [ not just a word in the poem ] and in the field we need to reenact, mirror, observe the clues… utilize them is the correct order. Which if a correct theory, I highly doubt the clues are driven, or expand over many miles. And if so, this would give a different perspective to area size. Like a mud puddle to an Ant, or which way the blaze points, or can the blaze be found only in the day time and on and on…

            Just more rambling and rumbling…

          • I don’t agree a lot with lugnutz and i’m sure he thinks the same about many things I chat about… But in this case I think he is hitting the nail on the head.

            FYI, I’d rather chat with folks that attempt to dissect my postings, rather than agreeing with them… all I have ever asked is give a plausible argument with some backup information and not so much… it works for my solve.
            Lugnutz does this from time to time, so I do appreciate many of his postings… umm well, maybe not many, maybe several. Naaa that sound like a lot too. How about a few… that’s one or more, right? Errr lets just say, I always mostly read some of them.

          • So when some asks you have you revisited a place you lived.
            Your go to thought is, no I never reconsidered moving there?
            Vs no I never went back there.
            Hey as I said, its your choice to make a mountain of nothing.

            Of course you could have just caught Fenn in a lie, because he did after all state “Fenn did you really just do that?,” he also said something to the effect, of course I could get it later if I chanhed my mind but decided no.

            So there WAS reconsiderations with Fenn but he told the kid, no.
            So why did Fenn lie to the kid?

          • I was actually able to make it all the way through this post by Seeker.

            It’s pretty rare that I can accomplishment said.

            Lugnutz love

          • W.R.
            There’s a difference to, reconsidering a place to hide something vs. reconsidering the action of setting the challenge into effect. fenn could go back and get the chest if he changed his mind about the challenge? Sure…But the place is what he never gave any other consideration, as to “where” to hid the chest.

            ***“I thought it was the most atrocious thing that I’d ever done.*** But in the back of my mind I told myself if I’m sorry tomorrow I can go back and get the treasure chest.”

            That’s the thought and action of hiding the chest, not the location. Which brings a lot of these discussions of distance full circle. I’m not exactly sure of the ages… but fenn did say several times he could go right to the chest at; 84? 85? 87? in different statements.

            That doesn’t sound like there is many miles of traveling involved [ with the clues themselves ] Or the need to cross rivers [ at the very least, needing a blowup dingy to do so ]. or hiking in and out of some very gnarly canyons some folks have posted about. ]

            As far as what I would think about the word revisited means, at any given time, doesn’t matter… it’s what fenn might have implied it to mean from a particularly worded question.
            None of this is making a mountain out of a mole hill… it’s all about a thought process for understanding… and those three questions are an excellent example of how we [ the searchers ] don’t think… we run with are one and only thought of what we hope it means.
            THAT is why some claim fenn doesn’t tell the whole truth imo, because their stuck on their own simple meanings of words.

            Not unlike straightforward to be; the execution of the clues only vs. ‘in all honesty’ of the word’s meaning. I wonder how folks would act if “creek” was used as; a narrow passage, and has nothing to do with water? Or wwwh related to death and not some lake or waterfall…

            So, in the wood, must mean a forest or group of trees or petrified wood or any other quick definition, right?

            Did you know that ‘wood’ is also the center of a horses hoof ~ also called the coffin bone? or that in the wood to mean in the saddle? And if we take that one step further, a saddle is a geographical area of a mountain passage. [ if wanting to marry it to a map ]
            Sure, Sure, this might be making a mountain out of a mole hill. But I call it analyzing word’s usages… until my computer starts to smoke and no longer reboots.

          • Seeker
            You’re still in thr he knows I know that he knows that I know so I’ll choose this option because I know he’ll know this so I now know which cup is the cup that doesn’t have poison in it.
            I agree with Hobbit, poison creek is the answer!

            Sometimes it’s better to let people fall. Enjoy the ride down.

          • Seeker

            Hey now you are getting somewhere. He used language that sounds like water and wood and temperature and fist distance. But maybe they are just the language of the poem and not the meaning. Maybe he made it sound like a nature poem.


          • Hi Seeker….good thinking outside of the box, and trying to analyze FF thought pattern.

            Tough, huh?

            We have to sift thru cleverness, obvious, elusive, clearly spoken words in order to move forward with the poem.

            Riddles are a key do,the solve….which impacts the outcome of our thoughts as compared to the answer we seek.

            Cheers and good luck.

          • Seeker – “until my computer starts to smoke and no longer reboots.” Are you sure it’s your computer starting to smoke or are you smoking something unusual? LOL Covert One

          • Wow ! A lot of mileage out of speculation about mileage, and revisiting Fenn’s comments about revisit. I think I will reconsider what I thought Fenn thought at the time he made his comments.
            My eyes are burning now…and Seeker never inhaled… just to be safe. I sure am glad Fenn did not revisit and go back to get the treasure. Ha Ha…fun stuff ! Several is a tough word to nail down.

          • Seeker: “in the wood” to mean “in the saddle” has definitely been something sitting in my “maybe” pile. After all, what’s sitting on the ground in the TFTW end papers at the foot of the Mountain Men (from page 236)? What’s Forrest sleeping on (backwards) on the title page? What silhouette does Forrest use to represent the One Horse Land & Cattle Co.? More saddle-mention in the cartoon on page 75. An ancient saddle in the bed of the truck in Chapter 26. And of course, Forrest’s uncomfortable saddle in “Looking for Lewis and Clark.” Finally, let’s not forget the horseshoes and omegas. Fine line between imagination & association, versus rabbit holes & tangents.

      • What’s the best part of every vacation? The trip there!! It’s somewhere “in the middle,” like Forrest. Sorry I keep chiming in, I can’t help it….bad habit.

    • Lugnutz – I concur that NM has a lot going for it, but with so many searching NM with relatively scant area in play, how could TC remain hidden? I’m with seeker in that we must be missing something…something major that obscures the correct path which might explain those who got wwwh but blew by the rest. I’ve been hung up on NM since revisiting the chase, but always snagged on fruitless searcher/acre issue until recently. My only current solve resolves this issue by nixing one small common assumption that most searchers consider a priori, and nearly aghast that seeker hasn’t gamed this.

      • Lugnutz – no, I haven’t been to NM, yet. I’m in SoCal and plan to go next year, but hoping for a grand tour of northern NM vs merely chasing TC. My current ‘bucket list’ includes a wide range of stuff like Folsom site, various pueblos, Chama lookout, etc.

        No doubt, the land of enchantment…

        • Matt Brown –

          I think you are new on this blog too yes?
          There are so unbelievably beautiful places out that way.
          It’s the reason that Georgia O’Keeffe, Echo Theatre and Benedictine Abbey of the Dessert are out there. Also if you look closely on the map you will see Fenn’s treasure there to the west.

          If you are using Google Earth you may even catch Desertphile out of his den, but I warn you, he doesn’t always where clothes!


  3. CharlieM (carryover from prior thread): Even though a multiple-choice question, I was going to answer his story. Sometimes my imagination lightbulb outshines my knowledge.

    • Bob – re: warm = comfortable ..i’m unsure how much stock to invest in Forrests answer tbh, but have you considered soft/hard mineral waters?

        • Hobbit,
          Thanks! I’ll need to consider how to ask my question.
          At this point I don’t know how to ask without revealing something I don’t care to share on HOD or any where else at present.


        • Kanafire? ..yes/no/maybe/or other (i.e why ask?)

          (sheesh! ..for once i have to (uber-reluctantly) admit that Lugnutz is actually right about something, mysteriously 🙁 )

  4. hot rhonny – i’m unsure why you think any of my comments were directed at you previously (?) as most don’t make much sense to me tbh, but if you’ve made a botg search for the TC, i’m keen to read about it

    and don’t worry, i’m not gifted enough yet to ‘watch you while you think’ 🙂
    (paranoid much? 🙁 )

    • hobbit:
      you interpreted me as a bad friend, sorry for that, more so than you being a ground pilot, using the book and poem and a map as instruments of navigation of a fighter airplane of the second war, then read the book and then my poem and so 6 times, use the poem with a map and as a map, my book is the instrument, with subtle tips that will help you in my poem and anger will take you to my treasure. If you stop and think for a second about a story that your FF traveled to CHINA with a friend that if I remember correctly was called JOHN, if you remembered very well, this is a word that is somewhere that I do not remember, (the poem was 900 years before someone broke) , looks like the Chinese poems that formerly 900 years were only written and some years or centuries was added image on the side of the poem, as well as (GROUND) AND ITS MEANING OR ALONE THERE.
      As the girl from India discovered the 2 clues see this is what I think she used, so let’s go.
      Indian chicken coat, this is an object that was of the father of his ff.
      scrapbook 172 the bell of Eric Sloane, this bell his ff I buy from ERIC SLOANE, OBSERVE about the ringing of the bell he says his wife Peggy calls him, this is used in some methods, like steam train with bell or horns of explosions which has an exit code and others and in India also exists ok.
      Graciella’s art scrapbook, also read the last paragraphs of this story and try to find out which psalm he is reading and the object he has in relation to indulgence. You know what I say and understand.
      FF bathroom tile, look at the picture of the 3 photo carefully, what it looks like, good, (BEAR).
      In some research on the ghost, he decides to search for ancient cities, as well as the city of ABIQUIU, which his old name for American Indians (bold), as well as other cities, after all his FF is a historian and a pottery archeologist with several hobbys, plus one is exceptional that he loves a lot, plus which one will be in several.
      scrapbook 125 shop of his FF friend, hear 2 explosions in his store, also conbina with a ghost place to the north of Santa Fe in the mine of CARSON, that had 2 explossões, the houses of the city was sold and the mine closed as well as the line to CIMARRON.
      scrapbook 168 GENERAL SPICER, read the part where your ff asks to fly your airplane and when the general decides to smoke a CACHIMBO, AND HIS QUOTE, (DO NOT BREAK MY AIRPLANE). was found an ancient CACHIMBO in the rocky mountains north of santa fe, the old CACHIMBO was valued at $ 16,000 dollars.
      these are combined SCRAPBOOK
      27,174 there are some relatives in the chest of brass, (jaguar claw).
      178,173 read and you will understand what I say.
      Good if you like it and want more information I give you, this is to help not only you more at all ok.
      have a good safe hunt as a fighter pilot.

      • thanks for that rhonny – no slight intended nor apols sought

        in actual fact, i think you might have me mixed up with randawg tbh – easy mistake to make admittedly

        ( ..he’s def NOT the chipmunk in the combat helmet 🙂 )

      • Interesting. What have you found in relation to 3 – three (3) of a lot of things has to mean something.

        • Pen Ghost
          see scrapbook 116, bathroom tile of your ff, in the third photo there is a big bear, see the next, fourth photo, there is also a bear, but with a difference there are some rocky mountains behind and one of these mountain there is an X, OBSERVE CALM AND YOU WILL SEE.
          MY KEY IS (From there) ta in the poem, is that for me is the real beginning of the place, because the WWWH is half way, so it was his FF that said.
          Let me know your opinion

          From: side, or the other side.
          there: point of a place or beginning of a place.
          have a good safe hunting there

          • I don’t see a bear in any of the pictures. Looking at his pictures reminds me of the search for skulls in ice cubes in magazine picture ads – the subliminal advertising kind of stuff of the 1970s. It all looks spooky to me; get rid of the tile, ff. I think the half-way comment was from somewhere else. But I don’t think half-way has to do with horizontal distance. For me it is vertical distance. It’s like traveling in different cities. Most states and cities place their business signs up high and the driver needs to read them from a upward level. However, when driving in a number of cities in Arizona like where Arizona State University is, the law is that the signs must be a certain small size and must be displayed low to the ground. Imagine encountering that city for the first time – you can’t find a business! Perhaps half-way has to do with travel and eye level looking distance for something – the blaze?

      • Spallies – summers coming (here) ..so a much anticipated ‘hobbit-thaw’ is imminent 🙂 🙂

          • Alsetenash – pessimistic much? 🙂

            oh wait!? ..is ..is that another “heavy/constant/rain/sleet/cyclone” fore-ca[- end of transmission -]

          • oh wait – did you mean “real” hobbits?
            ..nope, never ever heard of them 🙂

            ( ..the darn pesky trouble-makers!! 🙁 )

        • only after a full-body Brazilian wax-job JW, which makes us look sorta Sphynx-cat-like, tbh 🙁

          ( ..but at least we don’t get stuck on anything that mildly resembles Velcro tho 🙂 )

  5. Thanks for the suggestion Zap, I’ll ask if we can add it. I figured that most seasoned searchers will get 8/8.

  6. Seeker said:
    “Fenn didn’t have to give us ” the Rocky mountains ” as “the” mountains N. of SF… but he did. And he did, knowing that other searchers were looking in Nevada and other places outside the RM’s.
    Fenn could have said nothing about Canada being missing on the map in the tftw book… yet, that was almost the first thing he mentioned about that book/information.”

    After all this elimination, which 4 states did he leave for us and how are their “Borders”, you know, those itty biddie tiny lines, how are they defined? Latitude and Longitude, what other states are shaped like picture frames? Picture frames are normally made of wood? What is the starting latitude of those 4 states? 32 degrees, AKA WWWH, What is the dual significance of that? Rio Grande River courses the border, called Rio Bravo in Old Mexico, what course must you steer or fly to Montana Wyoming borders? Try 328 degrees to 348 degrees from Santa Fe, Draw a Radial from Lander Wy to Santa Fe, NM or try that same experiment at 328 degrees, what does that tangent tell you? What is the Canadian Border latitude? 49 degrees, the reason ff mentions Canada could be that he has mentioned another Border, I hold that when the TC is found it may well be on a Border, and probably at 10,000 to 10,200 feet since someone has been within 200′ of the chest, and if it is near a mountain top, it must be a wimpy one may be only 10,700 feet, why ? Why define borders, altitude, and the key is longitude, because that puts an x or + on the location, so bombs away.

    If November 2nd is worth any one question it would be this: Mr Fenn is there any dimension, element or relation of Latitude and Longitude encoded in the Poem?


    • TT,

      Why does boarders and numbers have anything to do with the poem? Boarders has nothing to do with the poem, the Rockies do. Try coming up with longitudes and latitudes of the Rockies, which I’m sure doesn’t even get you close to TC.

      I believe you are grasping for anything because you don’t have one clue figured out. I’m just going by what you just said.

      CharlieM IMO

      • CharlieM, it’s spelled BORDERS not BOARDERS, unless we talkin ski runs or surfers of which there exists a distinct possibility, show it to a kid comment.

        The reason Borders is important is three fold, first on Page 9, why 9? of the Thrill Book he mentions Borders Books, and goes on to say it was raining now why would he sprinkle that comment in there? Oh yes those Border Line Biddies were wasting his precious time, but why this comment:
        “ Read the clues in my poem over and over and study maps of the Rocky Mountains,” he said via email. “Try to marry the two. The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.”

        “Craig, there is no substitute for thinking and planning and observing and looking at maps, unless it’s the desire to keep it simple.f”

        KISS, Charlie Borders makes sense and it is simple.

        If logic and reason is grasping for anything, lets hear your version….


        • TT,

          So I miss spelled a word a couple of times and you go on to make an issue, and now your calling me stupid. 🙁

          The only way you can make the lines cross is after the fact if someone found TC.

          Secondly he was talking about the bookstore literally, not a subtle hint, your grasping at straws that aren’t there.

          So your telling me is you can think of nothing else except borders, longitudes, latitudes, circles and wood frames and where 4 states meet.

          I think you are looking for short cuts that aren’t there. IMO

          Good luck with your solve.

          • CharlieM, Sorry if you thought my message to you was criticism, to the contrary, I was complimenting your Imagination, in fact it reminded me of Mark Twain quote:

            “Anyone who can only think of one way to spell a word obviously lacks imagination.”

            Now while on the subject of IMAGINATION, I am still waiting to hear your solve.


    • CM – “Read the clues in my poem over and over and study maps of the Rocky Mountains,” he said via email. “Try to marry the two. The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.”

      “Craig, there is no substitute for thinking and planning and observing and looking at maps, unless it’s the desire to keep it simple.f”

      Q1: do (straight?) lines ever exist within nature?
      Q2: does planning/obs/mapping suggest a basic map-skill?
      Q3: is “keep it simple” a hint at poss celest.nav?
      Q4: what was Lady Gaga even thinking, wearing “that” dress??

      ( ..if ya got more than 1 (one) right, ya doing better than me 🙂 )

      • Curious Hobbitt – you have some of the most profound questions related to the chase. I too wonder “Q4: what was Lady Gaga even thinking, wearing “that” dress??”. Although I’ve never seen that written anywhere here or on other blogs related to the chase, it’s a key question in the correct solve.

      • A1: Yes.
        A2: Yes, the ability to plan and read a map is a skill.
        A3: How would using the stars to pinpoint an object on earth be “simple”?
        A4: Who is “Lady Gaga” and how is her wardrobe related to the Chase?

        • Randawg, in an impulse to your comment above:
          A3: How would using the stars to pinpoint an object on earth be “simple”?

          If you and I were standing on/at the North Pole ie 90 degrees….and we look straight up, ie vertically what would be the star directly overhead? It is straigth up above, as I have seen it from the bridge deck of nuke submarine at the north pole, that star is what all Navigation was formed around, and when I say that the border of NM Texas And Old Mexico is at 32 degrees, it means that the North star is 32 degrees above the absolute horizon if the horizon is at a (sea) ie level plane. If you were on the border of Colorado and New Mexico that angle of Polaris above the horizon would be 37 degrees above the absolute level horizon, Canada Border is 49 degrees and that North star, Polaris would disappear at the equator and no longer be in the sky.

          This is why I sense that there is an element of Latitude, and perhaps Longitude encoded, if someone is Wise enough to figure it out in the poem, that IMO is the hidden

          TT Thank you Nicolaus Copernicus, Viking Norseman Leif Erickson and Christopher Columbus and Magellan. There contributions were key to understanding how to pin point a spot on the globe using Lat/Lon. Why would Fenn who understands Navigation so well not use this knowledge?

          • But Polaris will do you no good in 10,000 years. Even now it is more than half a degree from ever being overhead at the North Pole. In 1,000 years it will be more than 5 degrees from zenith. In short, solutions that are tied to the stars as they are today will fail in a matter of centuries.

          • zaps – Polaris was never at true zenith to our celestial n.polar axis in the first instance if mem serves – and the 5º drift is just that pesky procession/equinox thingy, so will be all normal again in 26k yrs, give or take a few minutes

            ( ..don’t worry tho mate, if Magellan & Zheng He can do it, then so can we 🙂 )

          • Hi CB: not to mention that poor 2nd magnitude Polaris isn’t even usable for navigation by Hobbitses down under!

        • Using the stars for navigation is a given. Using them to locate a 10″x10″ object on the surface of the earth is quite another issue.
          I assure you the solution will be a lot less complex than all that Mr Terrific.


          • Randawg, the use of GPS and moving from traditional navagation, call the old system Analog/Dead Reckoning, but man is ingenious he and has created artifical stars, which triangulate spots on the earth that are a pinpoint on the big ball. When I went into the US Navy in 1964 our window of accuracy for a Polaris Missile target was 25 miles using Gyroscopic co-ordinates and a dead reckoning Grid, another words with a 20 kiloton H Bomb we could at 1000 to 3000 miles place it in at 25 mile window with confidence, however when I was discharged in 1970 we had moved that window to something that resembled a chimney top, remember the first gulf war? My job in as a Gyroscopic Technician was to repair, remove and replace most of that antiquated/old system an replace it with something provided to us by NASA, called GPS today.

            Zap, if you think we will base our navigation 1,000 years or 10,000 from now on the North Star being in true north position above as man’s reference point from celestial orientation, you must be smokin crack, I hold we will most likely be using a constant of time/space continuum just like we use the Digital Data today in the Information Age, because it is more precise.

            What ff said and I paraphrase was by the next millennium it will be more difficult to find Indulgence, why? Not because of the North Star being off its True North Orientation, but most likely that layers of debris will cover it or its location will be less accessible.


          • Tom Terrific: I was just correcting your misstatements about Polaris. We need to pinpoint a spot on earth to perhaps 50-foot accuracy, and yet in your example you put Polaris at zenith at the North Pole, and at 32 degrees elevation angle if you are at 32 degrees north latitude. In the former case, your imprecision results in an error of over 45 miles — more than 3 orders of magnitude worse than what’s required. At least in the latter case you’ll be right twice a day (following the broken clock analogy).

            If you believe Forrest utilized celestial coordinates in any fashion to encode the location of where he hid Indulgence, then you’ve just eliminated every redneck in Texas from having any hope.

  7. I do think the treasure is hidden close to a border of some kind. Not necessarily a State border, but a border just the same.

    • i abso agree Cap’n Sparrow sir ..if only our uber-super-padded cell doors weren’t so darn impenetrable, sheesh! 🙁

      but don’t worry just yet, it-just-so-happens that i happen to possess a highly trained mouse, whom specialises specifically in E-cell door unlocking technologies, that i’ve just now instructed to scamper directly for your door 🙂

      ( ..oh wait ..is …is that a cat?! 🙁 )

    • Sparrow — in my opinion you’re on the right track — just not necessarily specific to where the chest is hidden. Forrest isn’t even consistent in his spelling of Borders (the bookstore) — once with an erroneous apostrophe, once without. Throw in borderline biddies in the same chapter and you’d think more people would raise an eyebrow. He’s also “undecided” between book store and bookstore. Right. Aberrations. Learning “where the edges were.” Nothing to see here. A border couldn’t have anything to do with it.

  8. Following up on responses to the distance walked from the previous page, as follows:

    Pdenver = I think we all know for a fact that FF is a clever wordsmith who will bend and shape and stretch a word until it is molded into something that conforms to his vision and meaning while simultaneously allowing for “a few” other possibilities as well. That being said, I think his original response to Ron cannot be taken to mean that in total he walked less than a few miles. I say that because I am of the opinion that he hid/carried in the chest first, then all of the other items on the 2nd trip, at which time, by joining the two, made the whole thing the treasure chest. In other words, while I concede that the chest in and of itself is valuable, it is only a chest and does not become the treasure until all the other things were placed inside it. To me, then, FF’s response to Ron describes only the 2nd leg of the trip to deliberately obfuscate the subject. Similarly, he deliberately uses the word few instead of three (with 3 being one of my associated numbers with the word few, up until now, that is—lol) when describing how far he walked.

    As to your thoughts on visiting the exact spot versus the general area, it is plausible but I am leaning towards my original premise because these were questions from children (allegedly, that is, as we are all familiar with “the little girl from India” storyline—lol) who I think were asking about the exact spot and not the general area.

    KidUtah – My post was intended to convey that a few can be said to be defined by FF as a number up to and including 7 based upon the logic of the 3 quotes I cited. Based upon his exact answer (less than a few miles) I would say that he walked less than 7 miles one way.

    Seeker – I agree that just when you think you have narrowed something down, your narrowing bifurcates. As stated above in my response to pdenver, however, I think FF was describing the 2nd trip to the spot and only 1-way as the return trip to his car would have been emptyhanded (again, FF’s answer was truthful, just not the whole truth—AKA being clever).

    W.R. – I’ll let you and Seeker hash out the purpose and intent of this comment

    Ken – the verdict hasn’t come back yet on the exact usage/definition of a couple, few, several, and many with each person having their own generalized/localized usage/definition. Here is a cute poem someone wrote in an effort to differentiate them:

    “A thing is just one thing
    And a couple things is two
    And if you have three things
    Then you say you have a few
    And you start to say there’s several
    After you have four
    And keep on saying several
    Even after you have more
    But at some point you’ll have many
    And that’s the word you choose
    When you have so many things
    That there’s no other word to use”

    I was always of the opinion that a couple = 2, a few is at least 3 and around 3-5, several was close to 7 so around 6-9, with 10 or more being many.

    I already spoke to my interpretation of how clever I think FF was at crafting his answer to Ron’s question and as a whole would limit my walking distance to 7 miles maximum 1 way and I only offer that as an extreme case for use when analyzing an area as a potential solve. I’ve read most all of the arguments about maximum walking speed vs age vs elevation vs knowing the route, etc. and will agree with Seeker that it will be at least a mile (since FF stated his walking distance in miles) and add that it is more likely between 2-3 miles 1 way with 2 trips certainly doable in one afternoon as FF did indeed know where he was going. That same trip, with all of us searchers looking under every tree, rock, etc. will certainly take much longer unless, as FF intended, that someone is the one who finally solves the clues and walks with confidence.

    IMO 🙂

    • Bowmarc,
      It seemed obvious from the start that fenn would have ‘followed’ the same clues we are told to decipher… now we know fenn did so. The point is, we understand that we need to follow the poem and use the clues reference to get to a single point. Distance aside, why would fenn have to follow the same reference? [this is an attempt at a check and balance line of thinking]

      1. The path is a one way in and out [ makes sense ]
      2. The clue references are need more for calculation a location, than simply stomping point to point.
      3. The clues are nothing more than point on a map.
      4. The clues can be all of the above with a twist… the word follow, has different usages, and in this particular thought, I lean toward such usages as; Mimic, Mirror, act in accordance, observe or monitor,…come after in time or order. I think there is a good possibility that the poem is set up for the chest to be found during a certain time of year [ or two times within a given time period ].

      The thought of hidden well enough so it will not be stumbled upon [ including random searching imo ] seems to imply that the location can be known prior IF the clue have been utilized properly, beforehand. Another words, fenn had to create clues to be followed by instructions as well as directions.
      My example is, how to build a sundial, and how to use / read it [ not the greatest example, but you get the concept]. So in theory, all nine clues or at the very least 7 clues are needed to be ‘followed’ by using / utilizing each point… that leads to a single point. This falls into the “planning and observation” part of the challenge, imo. And why it may have taken 15 years to bring it all together using certain wordings/multiple meanings in the poem to do just that.

      At this point in time, fenn’s distance of travel is not really on my mind [it’s just a fun past time to play with] as much, Why “he” would need to follow the clues. I mean, many searchers have said; fenn hid the chest and looked for clue references to match the area on is way out… Sure, that could be how it was done… but that doesn’t tell me ‘he’ “followed” them. So, for discussion purpose I think fenn had to use the clues as we are told to follow them.

      So, just for fun… we have been told that a search might take several hours with two trips involved. Should the distance of all the clues traveled be shorter than 1 mile, why would several hours be needed. On the flip side, IF the distance is 6 -7 miles, why is it we simply can located a shorter way? [IF we are certain beforehand of the path?] 7 miles is a large area to cover in one afternoon, even once. So, again… it’s not so much the distance involved [ because that will drive a force fit solution from the get go in my mind ] but why fenn followed the same path as the clues? Or is it just a one way in and out and not so much ‘needed to follow anything’, but had to just walk by the clues. That doesn’t make sense to me when it comes to the searcher who were botg, with clues deciphered, and only one way to travel. So imo, thought #1 is shot. [ That check and balance thing I try to use ]

      • Seeker
        Does Tim’s inquiry if Fenn followed the clues to the chest, and the typical vague Fenn answer we all come to love and embrace equate to yes he followed them? It seems, no he didn’t follow the clues.
        He knew where he wanted to hide it, so let’s assume some places to provide this thought process with some logic. If wwwh is old faithful, did he really need to go there before he went to say canyon, because it’s too far to walk? And so on.
        Then have the waterfall there as the final spot.

        Why did Fenn have to go to old faithful 1st?
        Why couldn’t he just go straight to the falls?
        How does him going to the start be necessary to him at all?

        • W.R.
          Using your example… he wouldn’t. That’s the point I was attempting to make. fenn did follow the clues [ my assumption is he means all the clues in the poem ]. So the question or thought isn’t about ‘what ‘old faithful’ is [as an example], but more about where it is… a specific point, line of thinking. The same would be for any clues….and possibly why these points or features are needed?

          I mean, IF old faithful is a starting point, the canyon is a good distance from it, and so on… there really wouldn’t be a reason to ‘follow’ [ as being lead on a leash from there ], all anyone one would need to do is get as close to the last clue/point as possible [ map wise ].
          But it could be a point that we need, as geographical spot, to line up with other geographical spots for, lets say, a type of triangulation.

          Look at it this way… if I want you in the a location of a center point in the USA… I might use NYC, LA, Miami, and Spokane as fix point to draw an X [ four of more clues to understand those four locations, and other clues to explain how to use them… [ as an example ].
          So even if fenn knew where he wanted to hide the chest… does that mean a 10″ sq spot or a spot for a 6′ man to lay? Or just an ‘area’ he wanted his last moments to be at. In the latter, fenn would need to design clues that can land his hidey space to a very small spot within that area.

          But that is the catch 22 for all of us… Did fenn mean he knew where he wanted the chest to be in a “10” spot” or a “place” he holds special/ in high regards/ with respect… [ which could be 1000′ sq or larger for all we know, right? ]… and hide the chest within that ‘area’ which now, he would need to use the clues to pin point that 10″ spot “precisely”

          Which brings me to another possible eliminating factor… some like to think a waterfall is near or is actually the blaze and the mist creates a ‘rainbow’ at some point during ‘one afternoon’. The problem is the comment about… if you ‘know’ where the chest is, you can ‘probably’ retrieve it in any weather.
          Did fenn give that comment up to suggest the rainbow effect might be a lost cause, or was fenn giving thoughts to the word ‘rainbow’ as something we should consider? Another words, rainbow might not be the common usage that many think it is, but something else altogether.

          I have to look at many possibilities of thoughts when it come to the ATF comments. However, I don’t think fenn is handing out hint/clues on a golden platter… but more to the thought… we need to think more about what the clues really mean and not so much just where they are.
          All those first two clues comments have suggest to me that, there is much more to solving the poem that simple ‘finding’ a clue reference. { < that is my opinion only }. Otherwise we have several blind searchers who only got lucky.

          • Seeker there s a lot there to breakdown…
            But it almost sounds like the way youre describing it is.
            Fenn wrote the clues so he followed the clues to ensure he gets the person to his X. Vs driving his sedan from clue 1, 2 3, etc to walking to clue 9.

          • Seeker, your stated possible meaning of “follow” does have a lot of merit. Fenn apparently remarked the same, several years ago:


            Q. When you wrote the poem, did you start with the first clue or the ninth?

            A. ” I knew all along where I wanted to hide the treasure so I didn’t need a map or any information to write the poem. Everything was in my head. It took me a while to get the wording exactly how I wanted it. Counting the clues and hiding the chest came later. It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, at least in their mind.”

            FWIW…..You can choose to discount this Q&A because it came from a third party…..but, although not a prolific poster, ‘Waterhigh’ has been active for as long as you and I, if not longer. And, she has had some interaction with Fenn, at least early on.

            no map needed to write the poem…..follow the clues, in your mind?? hmmmmm

            🙂 loco

          • Loco,
            You know me with second party info… I don’t dismiss it, but I don’t use it for bait to catch the big fish either. At least until it can be confirmed, to be exact.

            I think, and I believe you do as well [ but do correct me if i’m wrong ] many of the ATF comments Q&A etc. are for thought and not so much direct hinting or clues. I am in complete acknowledgement that fenn will not “aid” searchers… But imo, has given some very insightful comments for thoughts… if we just take time to actually think.
            That is why I say I use the ATF comments as a ‘check and balance’ compared to fenn handing out clues like candy on Halloween.

            I don’t recall see this post before, or I just let it slip so far back in the cobweb department of my brain that I don’t remember it… either way, thanks for posting it.

          • Loco, I can’t remember exactly but didn’t f say more recently that he could have written the poem before hiding the tc but didn’t…or something like that.

            That would contradict this statement from f if he did.

          • Hello Fun-d, how ya been…..

            10/14/17 from MW: “I could have written the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t.”

            “…..It took me a while to get the wording exactly how I wanted it. Counting the clues and hiding the chest came later…..” – Waterhigh has had this posted to her blog for something like 4 or 5 years(or longer?)

            Really doesn’t matter ‘when’ he says things. If you take both statements as true, then there has to be a common thread that ties them together.

            *On the surface, the two in question here appear to be contradictory. However, if one recognizes a circumstance where they both would apply, then they are not contradictory at all!.* 🙂 ………loco

      • Seeker,

        I understand a lot of what you are explaining in your reply, and will add the following as more food for thought:

        Paragraph 1 = FF would have to follow the same reference if his poem describes several points on a map which, once drawn out, create the proverbial “X” where “X”, geographically speaking, only has one plausible route to reach by walking (the method that FF has stated that he used twice in 1 afternoon). FF has commented at least twice about drawing lines and finding the treasure so this seems to check & balance. Regardless of the mental picture he is painting with his poetry, the only way to get to indulgence is the way FF has taken.

        Paragraph 2 (Your List of 4 Items) = I like #4 as my reply should be conveying.

        Paragraphs 3 & 4 = He certainly had to wordsmith the poem to accomplish a lot of things if it indeed describes and defines points on a map which, once intersected to make the “X”, results in giving the searcher a rough estimate that GE could further refine or pinpoint a little better (give us LAT/LONG). From that refinement one could go BOTG based upon the geography surrounding “X” and determine how best to get from a place where you can park your car to the “X”. This also tends to check and balance based upon FF’s comment that “The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowledge” (I don’t think I am taking that out of context from the question Curtis posed which was “When you hid your treasure, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?”) Without the poem you cannot draw the “X” and locate FF’s route.

        Paragraph 5 & 6 = If the poem does what I have described above, the distance traveled becomes a little more relevant…perhaps to find the most feasible place to park the car and walk less than 7 miles.

        • Bowmarc,
          I’m holding off on the X thing…
          We still need to understand the “right map” and details, before I can jump on the wagon heading to any X that could mark anything at all.
          So when we talk about a “path” or matching things to a map… the first thing I do is grab the pink solution. lol, and I man up and take it straight from the bottle…

        • (the method that FF has stated that he used twice in 1 afternoon). He never said that, the context you have.

        • Hi Bomarc, I posted this same theory here about a month ago. A couple of questions though have come up since. How to follow the clues contiguously while finding an X? Does the first clue tell us how to begin creating an X? Is there something in the poem that leads us to know that this is what we need to do? Thoughts?

          • Aaron – That is what we “X ers” need to figure out. As an example, what if BIWWWH starts our first line and PIBTHOB is the last point of that first line? You are still following the clues in order this way, just interpreting and utilizing them in a different way. I like this line of thinking, just haven’t fleshed it out beyond sharing the quotes and “X” theory.

    • Thank you for your response, Bowmarc. I greatly appreciate it. The area I had searched the past couple years, I’ve found myself walking a roundtrip distance of approximately seven miles. With this in mind, if it is truly needed to walk it twice, we have fourteen. The distance and terrain can be walked in one afternoon, by someone in their 70’s. I believe the people we saw on this path were of this age this year. The only thing I don’t know if it’s possible is having approximately 20 lbs. on one’s back walking this distance, especially one in this particular age. I’m sure there are many that could, but the likelihood isn’t in its favor. I concur, Mr. Fenn is a wordsmith and a very good one at that, and we have to look at everything from all different angles.

      • Do I think Mr. Fenn could have walked this distance with such weight on his back? Apparently I felt he could, hence why I went. 🙂

        • PS – FF could certainly afford a decent backpack that distributes the weight making the exertion bearable—that’s what I intend to do with all #42 as I am only making one trip in and out. 🙂

          • Here is another tidbit pdenver

            *Posted on August 25, 2014 by Jenny Kile

            Mr. Fenn,

            When you made the two trips from your car to hide the chest and the gold, did you carry it openly in your hands or in some type of bag or backpack?

            .I did both. It was a special time of fulfillment for me and I can still sense now, the elation I felt then. It’s the only time I recall laughing out loud at myself. Hiding that treasure chest full of gold and jewels was fundamental to how I feel about living life to its stretched best, and it emphasizes my aversion to seeing anyone be a spectator to today’s opportunities.f

          • Bowmarc, thanks for all of the insight you have shared here; especially this quote from Forrest. This was a new one to me.

            I suppose that it could provide some information as to how much of his walking trip from his car to the hidey spot was along a trail vs. off-trail through the wilderness? There’s nothing too specific in the quote, so it requires some guesswork on our part. I would think that if Forrest felt confident enough to carry the chest out in the open, he must have been confident enough that he would not be seen, so to me that indicates that at least a good portion of his walking trip was off-trail. That’s just me taking a guess. What do you think?

          • Bowmarc,
            That sound about right…
            with what we know, the approx weight of a single item [ the chest ] is about 20 lbs. Every thing else [ approx 20 lbs, can go into different compartments of a normal backpack.. distributing weight. [ I doubt fenn carried 265 coins and hundreds of pacer nuggets, loose diamonds and other precious stones without containing them some how, maybe ziplock bags or plastic holders]

            The most difficult part would have been the [empty] chest… If I was to consider how I would attempt to make that 20lbs easier… I tie a rope around the chest to the handle of the backpack to have it sit higher, rather than lower inside the backpack. Ya’ll can try this with a shoe box filled with dirt or stone weighting the same… let me know if you feel a difference.

          • Bowmarc – This could also mean that he packed the chest for some distance and then (by hand) took it out of the pack and placed it in its final location. He plays with words so could be a simple reference to backpacking a portion of the way until he took it out of the backpack by hand.

            Thanks for sharing the quote.

          • I’m thinking the chest was in the backpack as to me it would be the easiest way for an 80 year old mountain man to carry such a bulky item knowing he was going to have to make 2 trips. Plenty of time to marvel at it when he took it out at the hidey spot as well as when he was filling it after trip #2. As to what he had out, i’d guess perhaps his favorite bracelet (possible worn, which still counts as out) and some other odds n ends to hold/admire from time to time as he walked. IMO, of course.

    • FMC, it appears I have missed the post. When I began the Chase, I used Google Earth, and I, too, thought I saw the treasure chest, but I couldn’t see it clear enough to determine if it was. It certainly looked like a box of the approximate size, but couldn’t be sure. It looked like a brownish-orange color from Google Earth. Since that early stage of the Chase, Google Earth has changed, and I cannot see the area as clearly as I did then. I hope to go to this area next year, just for curiosity’s sake to see what it was I saw. This Chase has been a lot of fun, and I’m sitting here giggling about it all. 🙂

        • Thank you for sending the link, FMC. When I’ve used Google Earth, there are places that brings me to ground level, but, there are other places I have searched that does not do so. I only see blur of an image. As I’ve mentioned in my previous post, from the three years I’ve been searching and have viewed this particular area, the image has changed in clarity, unfortunately for the worse. It may be possible the treasure chest is in the open, or, could be hidden amongst the forest, which we more than likely would not be able to see because Google Earth couldn’t go beyond the canopy. You’ve asked a good question. I don’t believe Mr. Fenn would answer the question if asked, but it seems to me one may never know if one doesn’t try.

          This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

      • pdenver
        My church is in the Rocky Mountains.

        scrapbook178 GRACIELLA. story stretch
        What could I do but capitulate? After all, she was a good friend and she was a good customer, and I offered to her, and I felt she was about to have an unfortunate physical problem. Not to mention that I needed the money.
        An hour later, my wife came into the office and asked why I was reading my Bible. I did not want to be rude, I just did not want to talk about it.

        Scrapbook 173
        The Prince of Comancheros
        Quanah was angry with his old friend. “If I already get José Tafoya, I’ll boil him in oil.” With that said, the great Comanchero, his wife and four children, retired on his sheep farm in New Mexico, where he died in 1913.

        If my church is in the rocky mountains, then I am a sheepfold.
        example: said this which psalm your FF was reading, I believe it should be psalm 23, well it’s what I think I do not know if I’m right or wrong.

        • Hello rhonny. My apologies for missing your post yesterday. I will need to go back and reread these two scrapbooks this morning. You may be absolutely correct and certainly wouldn’t dismiss this possibility.

        • rhonny, I tried to reply, but it didn’t show up. I hope it will be found and brought up for you some time today.

  9. Here’s a thought— have a chairity raffle for the backpack he used to transport the chest to the hidey spot .

    • Here’s another thought – what if the chest is still in the backpack used by Forrest to transport it to the spot? Waiting there for the right person to come along and pick up the backpack.

      • An antique bronze chest full of priceless treasure AND a free backpack?! Ok, now I’m going to REALLY try finding it! 😉

      • Covert One –

        I do not believe the chest was ever in the backpack. I believe he carried that in the open. He then carried the treasure in the backpack. When he arrived back at the chest he added the contents to the chest.

        That’s why when asked if he used a bag or backpack or carried it in the open he replied “both”


        • Lugnutz – makes perfect sense considering he would need to lighten the load carried for each trip – especially so if his hike to the spot was a considerable distance for someone 79 or 80 years old.

        • That’s a strong possibility too, Lugnutz. If Forrest did carry the chest in the open, I would have to think that the vast majority of his walking trip was off-trail. I can’t imagine Forrest jeopardizing his great chase by risking the off-chance that another person hiking along a trail would happen to see an old man carrying a conspicuous bronze chest.

          But then again, the rest of Forrest’s quote about people not noticing an opportunity almost seems like he would enjoy taking such a risk. What do you think? Do you think he carried the chest in the open at least partially along a human trail and risk running into other hikers?

          • Blex –

            This is conjecture.

            He drove a car to the spot. In the car he had the chest. He had the backpack containing the treasure. He also had a sandwich he intended to eat afterwards. I don’t think he ever intended to carry the treasure in the chest and the chest in the backpack. He probably planned to carry the treasure in the backpack WHILE holding the chest in front of him.

            He found he could not resonantly carry both. He carried the chest first leaving the treasure in the backpack in his trunk. He returned carrying nothing. He ate the sandwich which he had intended to eat afterwards. He nabbed the backpack of treasure for the second trip. He noticed the flashlight rolling around loose in the trunk and hooked it, (just in case it got dark on the walk back.) If was, after all, afternoon.

            He deviled the treasure and filled the chest slowly, recalling how he had acquired each special token.

            He arrived back at the car. He looked around and saw no one. Asked himself; Forrest Fenn did you really just do that? Hopped in his car and lit a cigar. Forrest was back in time for dinner and told Peggy that he had done it. She replied that she didn’t even realize he had gone alone.


        • Lug – I am still having trouble believing that FF, at 79-80 years young, is going to carry a 20lb chest out in the open as he traverses an assortment of terrain in the RM’s. It makes more sense that it was in a backpack for most of the trip and out in the open only when he first placed it inside such and then again when he took it out to put it in his secret place.


          Regardless, makes no difference to the actual solve so I am going to end commenting further.

          I will pose the following for discussion, however. FF was asked about what direction the Blaze faced (North, South, East, or West) and his reply was something along the lines of “I didn’t take a radial off of it, but I am thinking it isn’t any of those”.

          My comment/question is “Under what conditions can a thing be considered not to face any direction?”.

          I come up with a couple of answers, as follows:

          1) It faces all directions equally, therefore no one in particular

          2) It does not face any direction

          My inclination is to lean towards conditions which validate #2. For instance, if the chest were in a small hole and covered with the Blaze, technically the Blaze isn’t facing any compass direction but sure has a nice view of the sky?

          Thoughts and comments from all are appreciated.


          • Bowmarc –

            I don’t think it matters which way the Blaze faces. All Fenn was saying is it may face something other than true. So SW as one example was not covered by the question.

            I think that the distance from the car to the tc is really short. Much shorter than most would ever claim. To me these aren’t directions you follow. The clues represent what I will see all in one area. There will be a path marked by the blaze, but it is a short path is what I am thinking.

            As I mentioned before I believe the person at the car will be able to hear the searcher say “got it”, even though she may be out of sight.


          • I believe it faces the searcher as they are looking at it on a map! I can’t seem to find much concordance with this idea here on the blog, but I think it fits and makes sense a lot of Forrest’s comments as well as the poem. Anyone with me? Any good arguments against this assumption?

          • Perhaps a better question to have asked…If a searcher followed the clues precisely to the point of finding the blaze…which direction(NSWE) or variation of…would the searcher be facing?
            Maybe a book signing guest will ask…

  10. I believe, with all the Q&A’s, the scrapbooks and emails etc… is a lot of smoke [not all smoke],to avoid giving out more clues. You know FF is a master with words, a very intelligent man with imagination and a very good story teller. He shares his life with everyone past and present. I am not saying he’s a liar at all, just misleading.

    With all that he presents is very interesting, none the less I believe some of what he does and says is to draw away the focus. Vague answers and some truths. But I try to put aside all the clutter and keep going back to the poem and the book TTOTC with it’s subtle clues.

    My comments and beliefs probably will create some ire. So why do I come back to this website, blog if I feel that way? The answer is simple, I need some different views, ideas and some entertainment. Believe me I’m not smarter, just a logical thinker and researcher and work with abstracts.

    All is good and all is IMHO 🙂

    • Hello CharlieM. I believe it isn’t a matter of misleading, but a matter of misunderstanding.

    • (Second try.) CharlieM., I don’t believe it’s a matter of misleading, but a matter of misunderstanding.

    • CharlieM,
      It’s easy to say fenn is misleading when we don’t know all the facts. The problem is simple if you really think about… we just don’t see it the way he does. That’s not misleading, but our job to figure it out. There’s no deadline to work with, no adding information / clue / hints on a regular basis like some other treasure hunts do… [ although many would like to believe it – even when fenn stated he wouldn’t give more clues.] With the exception of the “safety first” posting… lol even then, some still claimed ‘misleading’ comments because it screwed up their perfect little simple solves, causing them to blow a fuse.

      The really sad part is; too many are jumping on that bandwagon and forgetting two simple reasons for all this.
      To get folks off their butts and get a thrill to be in the chase. LOL… there’s only going to be one winner, and we may never know who… especially if this challenge takes the long road.
      Yep, it’s easy to forget that some actually enjoy the challenge [ even if arm-chairing the ride ] and others who have life time stories to past down to the kiddies…

      • Seeker,

        I completely agree, about getting people out and about and paying attention to the outdoors and seeing all that nature has to offers.

        In this day and age of electronics, I believe that most are sitting on their duffs, expecting electronics to do every thing for them and to entertain them, when there is way more to offer.

        But, hey I’ve got my computer to do research, instead of going through piles of books, I’m lazy in that way only!! 🙂

        CharlieM IMO

      • Seeker
        It’s very misleading.
        For every thread Fenn wants to remove for safety reasons or common sense, damages peoples potential solutions.
        While the TC may not be in a graveyard or outhouse (forget common sense already excludes these) people have taken the extreme that any solution with these is wrong.
        This is evident with the recent Rio Grande chest exclusion. A searchers still put forth that is their wwwh and another searcher here was going crazy that Fenn ruled it out, when in fact he only ruled out the chest being there or underwater… why? Because someone that they had to go down the river for some reason, who knows, they may habe watched the Destination Unknown episode too manu times.

        So yes by good intentions Fenn is misleading people due to the style he addresses these things because people don’t understand what he says. This has been evident with a complete lack of understanding what revisit means and how people want to see what’s there.
        You may not feel it’s him misleading, but perhaps you could revisit it later.

      • More likely than not, f explains the point he’s trying to get across when he feels so inclined. The problem is the overall average census people would use to interpret. Example. we all know the answer to this, but put that aside. What if someone comes up to you and says,” hey, I know that guy, he’s been married a couple times, says he always marries housekeepers”.
        95% of the people would think that the guy likes maids, or house cleaners, or something along those lines. 95% of the people would be wrong.
        It’s because they kept the house. In the book, f explains this or better yet, gives the punch line. In a lot of his ATF comments, he’s not so giving. Like, ” It is interesting to know that a great number of people are out there searching. Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key. The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated.
        Questions: A few what? people or clues
        Question: Is there some key word or is something in tight focus with the key?
        F doesn’t explain, so does that make him deceptive? The 95% would think that many searchers are in tight focus with some word that is key to this whole thing. And that’s the thing, best see/interpret these kinds of ATF comments all ways possible. The 95%’ers may be wrong in this situation. He may be saying that some of the clues are close together with the key.
        The masses are trying to keep it straight forward, or keep it too simple, when it is not. Thus the confusion. So, is it deceiving or misleading if you know what the masses would think or interpret a certain thing you say, and let them believe it, without describing the actual meaning of what you are saying? Is it misleading to know that some of the things you say can be taken in different ways but you rather not say which way is correct? All I can say is who cares? Become a 100%’er and don’t see only one way. Keep in mind this is part of the norm with this puzzle, and all avenues must be noted. Who really thinks that finding over $1,000,000 is going to be straight forward or easy? He flat out said the blaze is meant to throw off the searcher. Isn’t that admitting deception? If you’re confronted with a multiple answered question in this chase, best to know all sides. At least then, you may have a lot of wrong answers, but you will also have the right answer. Better than just having one wrong answer but force fitting that round, wrong answer into the square hole of your solve.
        Is it the 9 clues we must follow precisely or is it the poem we must follow precisely? Solving the poem will solve the 9 clues, but yet the masses still try to figure out what the clues could be. If you can’t answer every line in the poem, if you guess, or if you just see it as not important, don’t fret, you are part of the 95%.

      • The reason why Fenn’s messages are misleading is because he’s the only one who knows where the chest is. For instance, let’s say I hid a gold coin in my sock drawer. For seven years, that coin has been sitting in my sock drawer and nobody but me knows where it is. So I start lining up hints through “sometimes” fake searchers.

        For example:
        “Copper, how exactly are we supposed to pair the clues to pictures in your book when you’ve given us four entire states full of mountains to search for a stinkin’ penny?” Thx, Cold Feet

        “Cold Feet, great question. Use your melon, read the poem, bring a sandwich. What did I just say?” c

        So now everyone throws ideas back and forth on sandwiches and watermelon for seven years while missing the entire point. It’s like that line from Austin Powers….”we’re putting the wrong emphasis on the wrong syllabels.”

        But, once you’ve got the beat on the sock drawer, you won’t miss the hints anymore because you’ve been tuned in. You’ll be looking for foot references. He’s not trying to be misleading, he just misleads because so many searchers are barking up the wrong tree.

        If you are confident in your solve then look for any and everything he says that relates directly to your solve. Support what you already know. This is more of a pep talk for me than all of you. I’m needing a confidence boost this week.

        Good luck to you all and stay safe.

        • Nevermind. Weekly words came out and I have no idea what I’m talking about as usual. Don’t do what I’ve been doing.

        • Copper. My advice is to carefully read and consider what Fenn has written and said, and do not rely on interpretations put forth by others. Fenn’s statements are not misleading in themselves. Rely on your own ability to figure out what they mean.

    • CharlieM. I don’t believe Forrest has been intentionally misleading with his statements. Rather, I believe searchers put too much emphasis on many of his comments, equating them with poem clues and hints in importance. Examples being his statements about searchers having been within 200 feet and 500 feet, and statements about making two trips from his sedan to hide the treasure. To me, these statements tend to cause confusion, more than being of help to the searcher. I put this on searchers, me included, rather than on Fenn.

      • Tom B,

        To cause confusion I believe is somewhat misleading, isn’t that what confusion does? If I mislead someone is in not an effort to move them away from the facts and truths?

        Just saying….:-)

  11. Zap. You said: TomB: just as a reminder, Forrest doesn’t think your strategy will work: “I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly. f”

    I think you are misreading this statement by Fenn. “Without first identifying the starting point” to me simply means that you need to identify the starting point before you can find the treasure. It does not mean that where warm waters halt has to solved before any other clue can be solved.

    • Tom B,

      Ignoring wwwh is like wandering around the Rockies in hopes of finding the canyon down and the HoB. You truly need a starting point. I never understood the logic of bypassing wwwh before you found the treasure. Where ever you go you need a starting point to get to the destination. I can find nowhere where FF said in a round about way to ignore wwwh.

      Are you smoking or injecting something?


      • CharkieM. Apparently you are not aware of this exchange with Forrest. Perhaps you should do a bit more research before responding with that attitude: “Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt? Ben Raylor Thanks for the question Ben. If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck. f”

      • Tom B – i strongly suspect the key-words above (re: “if you are SURE about the location”) are, ‘if you’re ABSO-sure about the location’ ..which could be attributed to “luck” more-so than wise research (imho alert!)

        however, i also suspect (re: “HoB/straight to the treasure” etc) that Forrest was being purely hyperbolic
        ..but if i told ya that Tom B, i’d have to shoot ya!!

        ( ..see what i did there? 🙂 )

    • Hi TomB: thanks for your feedback on the home of Brown thread earlier today. I did try to be thorough and logical, and look forward to a rejoinder from Seeker.

      So, to the matter at hand. Paraphrasing, Forrest has said you need to figure out the starting point; you need to figure out where warm waters halt. And that 2013 New Zealand radio interview cleared up any doubt about WWWH being the starting point. He has also indicated a linearity to solving the clues, that they must be solved in order (whatever that ends up meaning) and that there is no other way. But perhaps most damning he has asked why anyone would be concerned with WWWH if they knew what home of Brown was (or was it the blaze? On my phone so no access to my files). In any case, it suggests you have no need of the starting point in the event that you know one of these later clues. So you have a contradiction on your hands.

      Forrest doesn’t think you can short-circuit the clues. He says searching for the blaze first is essentially pointless — that there are “10 billion blazes out there.” While I don’t recall him saying something equivalent about hoB, he did say that if he told you hoB you’d go “right to the chest.” So I think it is “expensive folly” to attempt to solve later clues before locking down that first one.

      • Zap. See my response above to CharlieM concerning home of Brown. This response from Forrest indicates that your starting point in solving the poem could be home of Brown. Of course you are free to believe what you wish, as is Charlie.

        • Tom B
          Once again with all that has been said of the first clue wwwh you can not discover the correct HoB without nailing down wwwh. I think you should point to us where F said that “HoB could be the starting point. F has said you need to stay with the poem to solve it. [That is not an exact quote, but close.] What I took away from F’s statement was the he was being sort of snide in answering the question.


          • CharlieM: here is the quote once again:

            “Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt? Ben Raylor Thanks for the question Ben. If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck. f”

          • You can interpret this any way you wish. In my view, he is hinting that this is a good way to proceed.

          • Tom B

            Sure you could reverse engineer the poem after you figured out wwwh and found the correct HoB

            F said, “But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take.” That quote says it all as I believe he was answering in somewhat being snide.

          • As I said earlier, I think where warm waters halt may only be needed in order to validate a specific home of Brown. But you are free to believe Fenn wasn’t being truthful if you want.

        • Hi Tom.

          There actually has been some discussion on this thought….but also that WWWH is within the region labeled/known as “the hoB”.
          So your thinking isn’t too far off course.

          IMO – one needs to follow the clues, but foremost, need to figure out the riddles within the poem that explains the clues.

          What if, huh?

          So many to choose from.


          Good luck!

    • When I first found my wwwh, it took awhile before I finally discovered my hoB. After I did find it, then I identified my canyon down, my no paddle creek and so forth. After over 3 months of searching both on GE and BOTG, now I think I might have identified my blaze. In fact, the last time I went there, I was about 500’ from that blaze, but failed to see it then. So I no longer look much at my wwwh. I just go to the rest of my area for more details. However, if I had not first found my wwwh, the rest would have escaped my attention.


  12. Has anyone heard from Forrest in past few days? With book coming out, surprised not a few more teasers!


    • Hi Twingem – i (officially) vote that Forrest should submit a bad ‘toon to the Contest page too, tbh ..WHO’S WITH ME!!??? 🙂

      ..oh wait!? – where’d everyone go suddenly??

      ( ..DARN that William Wallace guy!! 🙁 )

      • Ok Curious, lets see how well you understand that William Wallace Guy:

        How much higher, in feet is the William Wallace Memorial in Scotland, than Sterling Castle, home of Robert the Bruce, King of Scotts and betrayer of William Wallace? Why that many feet higher? …..

        My family name is McGregor, and Rob Roy was a distant relative of mine…


      • TT – in actual fact, your highly-secretive direct lineage to that historical trouble-maker (re: Rob Roy) is def safe with me, comrade – so don’t worry!! 🙂

        (pssst Dal ..am pretty sure that TT is Irish tbh, and prob related to that rasculous Billy Connelly guy too, imho)

        ( ..quickly! DO something!! ..i have that instinctual Nathan Fillion/FireFly sorta “trouble-bump” ..again 🙁 )

  13. A quick rereading of two FF quotes today makes me think I for one may have been falsely interpreting them.

    1. “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.”

    Perhaps these two trips were not actually BOTH done in one afternoon. The term “it” is singular, and he refers to this singular trip in ONE afternoon, but not necessarily in the SAME afternoon. Plausibly each of these two trips could have been made in one afternoon over two different days.

    2. “Ron, your question sounds like a travelogue, but I’ll answer it. No, I don’t want to be that bold. But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles?”

    I believe it is likely that “few” means more than three in this context, otherwise why the need to look up the definition. Three is obviously a few. More than three may need a quick review of the technical definition to make sure not to give untrue information.

  14. My son and I are headed into the woods this weekend. But lest you all misconstrue our intent, we’ll be looking for scrapes, rubs and other sign while there. Then in two more weeks we’ll go back to set up camp and stay there until we have our full measure of treasure hanging. I’ll be mulling over Mr. Fenn’s puzzle while I while away my time meditating in the wood. Good luck to all my fellow treasure hunters. Be safe out there!

    Oh, and when walking in the woods, it is my opinion that time is the more important aspect when considering distance – even Einstein figured that out. 🙂

  15. Question for Forrest: If a searcher is on a mission to find the treasure chest, will anyone or anything actively interfere with their mission?

  16. Seeker. Correct me if I’m wrong, but isn’t it you that says you can walk from where warm waters halt to the treasure site? I can see a way this is possible, even if we accept that too far to walk refers to distance between warm waters and home of Brown. There could be a heading change at home of Brown that courses in a manner that brings you closer to warm waters rather than farther away. Such that the direct line distance between warm waters and the treasure site is actually less than the distance between warm waters and home of Brown, and is not too far to walk.

    • Whaaa?!? There’s a Red River (aka ‘warm waters’) in NM??

      Under Searchers Discussions in right margin, see Searches in NM and Searches in NM Archive.

        • Ken and all who are interested over 5 years ago, I was sent an email letter from the director of “Red River Trout Hatchery” informing me that they do not raise Brown Trout, which I knew, but not everyone knew so I confirmed, and posted it to Dals site, early knowlege is key…that in fact Rainbow Trout are raised there.


  17. I think a collection of thoughts should exist or be created for early submission of Questions for Forrest and even Preston, can I get an AMEN!

    Dal you got ears to hear?


  18. “But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.” f

    There’s a lot of open debate about what lines in the poem may be referring to what, but in terms of geography, I think that there are two facts that (almost) all of us can agree on, with respect to solving the poem:

    1. There is a canyon involved.
    2. There is a creek involved.

    That said, here is a question that I would like to bring up: Does the canyon and/or the creek need to have a proper name that appears on a map of the Rocky Mountains? Can one or both be an unnamed geographic feature? If so, then a comprehensive knowledge of geography takes on an added level of importance, IMO. Being able to recognize what a canyon or creek is without having a proper name stamped across it on a map seems to be a useful bit of geographic knowledge. There are plenty enough named canyons and creeks in the Rockies to make the search challenging enough as it is, but I’m curious to know if anyone has been searching unnamed canyons and/or creeks.

    • I had never been to the Rocky Mountains until this chase. There are creeks and canyons everywhere. Made me wonder if I needed to adjust my approach after BOTG #1.

      This winter I am going to spend time attempting to gain this comprehensive knowledge (as long th TC is still on the loose) and I wondered the same thing. I keep going back to FF’s statement about “a good map” so I assume it will be named. IMHO

      • IMO, A good map does not necessarily need to have all geographic features named; a good map needs to give accurate information of the surrounding geography, which I have found to be easier said than done in itself.

    • Blex,

      Q~ Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem. ~Steve R
      A~ No Steve R,
      The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.

      I don’t have an answer to your questions or suggestion of names that might help… But I do wonder if we take the “comprehensive knowledge of geography” a bit too far to the general aspect of the definition, and not enough with the Question presented.

      This might be nitpickin but two things come to mind; “might” help, and “US history”… geography is basically the study of the land and air and the affects of life [ animal and plants ] to that. [ animal include us, well me, more than most ]. Is also pertains to natural and relative a arrangement of places and physical feature.

      Again this might be nitpickin… but, is it possible fenn’s talking about geography prior to US history? IF possible, do those names of place change any thoughts you might have towards them… Is that where the comprehensive knowledge part come into play – prior to and might help?

      Fenn said he could have written the poem before he hid the chest, but didn’t… this may imply fenn’s clue references might be prior to US history and involves different names of location changed over time.

      Just another step in this line of thinking, about names of places…

      • Seeker, I have wondered about the possibility of feature names changing over time. I certainly have some significant instances of this in my solve area, both pre- and post- U.S. However, I think that per the full quote you listed above, knowledge of historical changing of place names over time would not be necessary in order to solve the poem.

        In my opinion, geographic knowledge and definitions are more black & white. A canyon is a canyon, whether or not it is labeled with a proper name on a map (such as “Browns Canyon”). Likewise, a creek is a creek. If we were given a topographic map (or aerial photograph/GE image for that matter) completely absent of any labeled names, we could still identify canyons and creeks relatively easily.

        • I wonder if a question submitted to Forrest about this would be worthwhile? Something along the lines of: “Would one be able to find the treasure location using a detailed map of the poem’s described area that does not include any proper names of geographic features?”

          I’d be interested if that was one that Forrest would provide an answer to. I don’t submit questions to Forrest, but if anyone feels like submitting one along these lines, you are welcome to do so.

          • I just remembered that there was the past related question regarding geography vs. typonomy. I can’t remember where that quote is located; nothing is showing up on tarryscant.com.

          • Ya might get an answer like this;
            C’mon now agent 777, a map is a map. The more detailed maps are most useful if you have the right map, but I’m not sure I needed to tell you that.f

            But I agree… when you’re on the ground or in a plane we don’t see dotted lines, letters floating in a body of water or a black dot on top of a mountain indicating much or “Rocky Mountains” covering four states.
            For me, the idea of changes over time is something I just can’t ignore. We have been told that land movement will has some impact on the search/clues… That seem to tell me fenn thought of changes of names [ or human activity associated with changes ] when designing / crafting / drawing [ call it what you will ] the outcome of the poem.

            Personally, I skip looking at maps because I don’t know what fenn’s “right map” is.
            To list a few type;
            as you said a topo map.
            a watershed map.
            a road map.
            a geo-map.
            a land tax map.
            a map of a national park.
            a map of a state
            a map of borders of those states
            C’mon! the list is longer than my arm, and really only useful IF you actually ‘know’ the location.

            Think of all the changes in his life span he has seen on the same ‘road trip’ ~ vacations from south to north.
            Is this what he meant by looking at maps… start out with a USA map, get a RM’s map, get a state map, a county map, a city map, a town map a village map…The get the topo maps all all those area, over lay with watershed maps, place on BML maps and add a geo-survey map…?

            When the heck would anyone have to time to eat, drink and search?

          • Seeker,
            “Personally, I skip looking at maps because I don’t know what fenn’s “right map” is.”
            Ok, fair enough, you don’t look at maps. No one really knows what the ‘right map’ is. But what you’ve listed are various “types” of maps. What makes you think that Fenn’s comment referred to the right ‘type’ of map’?

            Perhaps a simpler explanation to his comment is that he referred to a map the includes the area surrounding the hiding spot. It would be hard to argue that is not a good map to have and the more details the better.

            I think he likes to state the obvious and then watch people chase off in different directions looking for more complex answers to his statements.

          • Colokid: well said. Any map is better than no map. Seeker: for someone who has made a career of analyzing the what-ifs, I’m flabbergasted that you haven’t examined maps. Not just in detail, but at all! Forrest has told you to do so (you know the quote), and in this one case you ignore him? What if a map is just as crucial as the poem?

          • Ah, thanks Pdenver & Fennatical. I just need to quality-control my spelling more frequently! 😳

    • Blex, I don’t know at what time does the geographic knowledge comes to play.

      I listened to that audio again from the New Zealand interview and the question from the DJ was specific when he asked if the Texan on a pickup with no job was coming to have a look, does he need local knowledge, geography knowledge and ff answer was:

      ‘No, the first clue in the poem is begin it where warm waters halt… if you can’t figure that clue out you don’t have anything.’ and just before that he says -they are gonna have to figure out the clues, decipher what they say and go (straight to the treasure chest)-.

      My take is don’t get hang up with waterfalls…

      • IMO, geographic knowledge is something that is helpful throughout the solving of the entire poem and not tied to one specific line or clue.

        • Not to decipher the poem at first, but once you have the meaning of your clues then geography will come important imo. The second tier.

  19. Over at Jenny’s site:

    Mr Fenn, You’ve been awfully quiet lately. Is it because someone might have given you a correct solve within the last 10 or so months? Thanks ~John

    No John. F

    Crimsonblaze October 17, 2017 at 4:01 pm
    Dear John,
    Meet me at Borders and we can discuss the end is drawing nigh.
    IMO you are one of the few people who might actually understand the importance/significance of Borders as in code WW1 (For Whom the Bell Tolls) verses WWWH, Borders is a latitude, and at 32 degrees where Ice forms and WWWH, Texas, NM, and Old Mexico, at the Rio Bravo AKA Rio Grande, now the next border of Latitude is 37 degrees, Colorado/NM Border.

    Nobody has given him a correct solve, only a general solve. Nobody has given him the clues in the correct order. However IMO someone has been close, generally close, but not correctly, exactly within a few steps close…

  20. A quick rereading of two FF quotes today makes me think I for one may have been falsely interpreting them.

    1. “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.”

    Perhaps these two trips were not actually BOTH done in one afternoon. The term “it” is singular, and he refers to this singular trip in ONE afternoon, but not necessarily in the SAME afternoon. Plausibly each of these two trips could have been made in one afternoon over two different days.

    2. “Ron, your question sounds like a travelogue, but I’ll answer it. No, I don’t want to be that bold. But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles?”

    I believe it is likely that “few” means more than three in this context, otherwise why the need to look up the definition. Three is obviously a few. More than three may need a quick review of the technical definition to make sure not to give untrue information.

    • Anthony,
      Reading between the lines of your post it seems that you are trying to make that case that hiding the treasure required more miles of travel and a much bigger effort then most think.

      Did you also consider the the fundamental guidelines at the top of Dals page….e.g. “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”
      LOL, guess that just opens the door for arguing what ‘several’ means.

      Couldn’t ‘it’ refer to the hiding of the treasure as a singular activity (whether or not the hiding was done in two trips).

      But lets play devils advocate. Say he did do it over two days, and walked more than 3 miles each way….how does that move us closer to finding the stash? By the way, there are many people here that still hike dozens of miles and end up in the hospital with hypothermia or altitude sickness because they refuse to believe it could be hidden in a relatively close location. Just say’in.

      • Colokid,
        Thanks for pointing me to the fundamentals quote! That slipped through my radar somehow. I stand corrected. I thought these ideas might be helpful in preventing someone from discounting a solve too quickly. I for one hate when people I invite along on the search start naysaying the location because they think it’d be too hard for an 80 year old to make the hike. Every time I go out on a search that question is continually going through my head. It’s a hard standard, though, because so much changes from year to year. I’ve had boots on the ground to the same area for the past three years, and each year the trail becomes more and more scattered with deadfall from the blasted bark beetle epidemic. For example, this year I logged 5 miles on an otherwise easy 2 mike round trip hike because I was forced to zig zag around all the deadfall.

      • ColoKid.
        Howdy neighbor! Good to hear from ya. Been a while – I recollect last time was near Four Corners. I might be mistakin’ – it coulda been with AZKid. Anyway, haven’t heard much from a several other neighbors: NMKId, WYKid and MTKid. Think they dodge me cause of ff’s map. Sounds like you’re givin’ serious thought and havin’ fun. Hope all is well with ya.

      • Colokid,

        Playing devil’s advocate some more…
        Other than the weight problem [ a 10″ sq. box, compared to weight that can be distributed for easier carrying, idea. ] and [ there are some bulls out there searching that even 42lbs in a backpack wouldn’t affect them ] Why would fenn [ other than a simple safety tip ] suggest two trips… IF it was possible that two trips were made in two different afternoons?
        He made two trips… from his car… and did it, in one afternoon. The possibility, however unlikely, could be the need for ‘a afternoon time period’?

        While others want two trips to be needed because of distance… which in my mind kinda forces excuses to fit the idea of a location a searcher hopes its in, more than fitting the clues.
        There could be value in the thought that two trips were necessary [ even in a short hike ] on two consecutive days at the same time of day. Or a subtle hint that a time of day, [weather, season] is needed to be understood.

        Whatever the case might be… it does seem fenn doesn’t care about distance [ as to his Q&A “… I walked less than a few miles, IF THAT helps.”] But is consistent with two trips, and telling us we need to be able to make two trips in a time period [ several hours ]… Then again, it could be just me… I see the poem with “time” involved.

        LOL.. you know me, always looking for that “important possibility”

        • time is neither an event nor a thing, thus it is not measureable nor can it be travelled…be that as it may be. The “physical aspects/quantities of time determine other quantities, thus being “circular” in nature.
          Just weird nerd stuff. Fenn’s restrictive comments about walking less than a few miles…two trips…done in one afternoon, are definitive in nature…but I think he offered this up as a back drop for SAFETY reasons to protect the long distance trekkers. Still…good measuring stick to use in one’s possible path.
          And yes…how did Fenn discover this place to begin with? Was it similar to another special place from another time/place? Or did he “stumble” upon it by accident on a foray?
          As an aside…just for today…I think Fenn parked at

          • * * * * * * ken posited – ” Fenn’s . . . comments about walking less than a few miles…two trips…done in one afternoon, are definitive in nature…but I think he offered this up as a back drop for SAFETY reasons to protect the long distance trekkers. ” * * * * * *

            I agree that his time/distance comments mean what they say, ken.

            And safety, sure, but intended also to open up the audience participation – “you don’t have to be a waterfall-rappellin’ grizzly-wrassler – if you can hold a map north side up and hike a few miles in a few hours, you’re in the game.”


          • yes JAKr…it does take away some of the unnecessary things folks have done on their searches. You would not believe the location I found flippers stashed behind the rocks!! My search partner and I busted up real good on that one. It made my day. Two days later we found a fairly large RC airplane w/camera crashed in the rocks a mile or so away.
            Seeker’s question below about Fenn following the clues physically vs. only map or other…is one(of many) question/s that makes my head hurt a wee bit. I use that one as a measure stick too. In reality…I think Fenn offered that one up to illustrate/emphasize that a searcher has to follow the clues precisely. After all…when deciphered all the way…the clues will lead to end of Fenn’s rainbow, and the treasure.

    • Antony, the way I take these two quotes, Fenn walked less than a few miles (which to me means 4 or less) in total for the two round trips, so that would equate to a distance of one mile or less between where he parked his car and where he hid the treasure.

      • TomB.
        Your calculation might be spot on… at least I think they can be.
        The problem for many is more than just a distance from the car [in regards to the poem clues sequence] and more to where he park during the clues themselves. At hoB, at wwh, drive around or down a canyon, go from the car straight to the chest? Did he follow the clues on a map only? did he follow the clues physically? Did he “need” to follow the clues because of one way in and out?

        But as Colokid implied, Does that move us any closer? My answers, Nope.
        However, are we stuck on the thought of distance because many think it works for their solves if it’s only ‘one’ of the above, or could we be missing another factor… a possible need to know how much time is needed?
        One afternoon and/or several hours time span, a very subtle hint that we need as to finalize the location of the hide? Something fenn would need to follow as well.

        Wouldn’t it be a kicker if all we need is to find wwwh, and observe the sun by its casting shadows along the path of the clues and the chest, type observing.
        Or as Goofy said; searcher have their predetermined notions, and don’t see whats right in from of them.
        Little Indy can not get closer, because we need to “plan and observe”??
        Can the clues be located on a map beforhand? Yes, in theory, but not in practice…

        Yeah, I know… C’mon Seeker ya make it so complicated. lol… Why did it take so long to write a poem? if it’s so precise that over time [ RM’s are still moving ] it will be more difficult to find the dang thing…

        JDA, no need to read… it won’t make sense to your solve.

        Food for thought folks…. nothing more than thoughts.

        • To me, the distance walked is only useful in excluding a potential blaze (treasure site) from consideration. Such that, for me, any blaze I consider has to be a mile or less from a point that is accessible by auto. It doesn’t matter how far along the clue chain that occurs.

          • Seeker’s point here was that WhatIF the SUN is the blaze…pretty sure distance to IT becomes less important and your point of observation becomes more so (and of course time of year). This thought is somewhat supported by the ‘sandwich and a flashlight’ ATF comment…WhatIF you are at your spot, looking for the blaze and just have to wait for sundown to ‘look quickly down’. My Thermopolis/Gold Creek solve I had the sunset as a possible blaze, I did not do a BOTG, but the idea that you have to be there at the right time is an interesting idea, but I don’t see anything in the poem itself that gets you there. But the idea that you’ll be getting the box in the dark and/or walking out in the dark is interesting…gives the ‘worth the cold’ line a different angle, as above certain elevations it will be cold at night even in summer.

          • Tbug,
            The thoughts not so much about the sun as the blaze, although the word can be an indicator.

            The real point was crafting a poem to make it work and still be straightforward… Taking a long time to do it.

            Cold may not be so much waiting for a sunset as much as a sunrise maybe. An overnight campout?
            Whatever the reason for planning and observing… Fenn has said… This is not going to be done on a Sunday picnic or spring break.

            Why the heck not IF all we have to do is just stomp out clue?

            Have you ever asked yourself…if fenn followed the clues, and there’s no other way by his knowledge… How did fenn find this place to begin with?

            Could it be he did it by something he saw too? And use that observation to create clues?

          • Tbug,
            Let me try and explain a bit better…
            We are to use imagination over knowledge line of thinking. Should imagination fall more toward observation in the field, than a map or even the poem, Then you can see why it could have took so long to create just the right wording to explain what it is your looking “at”; over telling you what to look “for”. Does that make sense…? Cuz, other have and didn’t know notta

            The idea is… the first clue is a must to get started on exactly what the next clues is and it’s exact location. That doesn’t have to mean a go into a canyon perse, but viewing [take it in] of the canyon possibly.

            What’s a blaze? ~ something that stands out… Is it possible that certain physical landscape give an image of something the imagination picks up on [ why kids may have an advantage?] At a certain time of day, season, year, when the alien return … Yada yada yada.

            The point to the thoughts… not examples… is how can we think down the road, think of how movement of the land could affect clues, why crafting the design of the poem took so long, why we can’t find it on a spring break or Sunday picnic [ which fenn used the same exact examples in three different time that I’m aware of] [ why not say on vacation or Christmas holiday or any other examples… that always seemed odd to me. ] But as of late… we ‘know’ it was ‘summer’ when he hid the chest.

            Think about that for a moment… I’ll leave that there. But if you’re going to ask, is this information is the poem?… I can say, I see it.

            The one example I’ll say is, because we’re in the middle of that discussion of distance… Not far [to view], but too fat to walk… [don’t go]. Or as fenn stated, searcher didn’t give up or quit [ or something like that ],”they left the poem.”

            “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. ***People don’t understand that.”

            Am I saying any of this is true… nope… but I’m looking for a way that all or almost all these ATF comment can hold true to a possible theory of a solve. Not picking and choosing which comment works for my solve…
            LOL I want to be ready “if” I ever figure out that first clue – where to begin – need to know where to start, important possibility little problem we all seem to be dealing with. Well, not the knowitall, of course…

  21. Hi All: for those that watched Ken Burns’ excellent 10-part Vietnam War series, I thought I’d share a Chase-related chuckle (since our puzzlemaker cheated death a couple times over there). In episode 9, there is footage from the Democratic National Convention (McGovern). For a brief few seconds, you can clearly see Bella Abzug on the convention floor… always with hat. 🙂

  22. I have been on this site for awhile, as of late I have not seen anything helpful thus far. All I am seeing lately is a bunch of nothing, no intelligent conversation about the poem or giving fresh reasonable thoughts.

    As Dal has said on the Home page under “Caution” he should have included, “children at play”.

    IMO 🙁

      • pdenver,

        Yes I have looked at the Archive pages, Thank you 🙂

        Also I am curious as to what part of Denver you live at.
        I’m at the far southwest part of Denver, close to the foothills.


          • pdenver
            check the scrapbook 116, YOUR FF BATHROOM TILE, carefully and see what I see, look at the third photo what it looks like, yeah, (a bear), now see the fourth picture what it looks like, yeah, a BEAR AND BACK MOUNTAINS AND ONE OF THIS MOUNTAINS HAS AN X.
            This is what I see.

            I saw that your ff read a verse of your poem, and that’s how I see it and other methods as well.

            He did not move far, far too far to walk.
            my interpretation of how to read the poem
            Not far from there, far too far from there to walk.
            because I did this, see this.
            From there, it is no place for the meek.
            (From there) or (there) indicates a starting point or point on the start side, for example:
            can be conbinado with home of brown, tame, and very far.
            More it says start at the beginning WWWH, but do not forget that this is already half way to the tc, so your FF said:
            so this method I used is not to tinker with poem, but I’m just interpreted it as your FF did in your poem on the back, (brave)
            my motive for doing this is kind of crazy and simple, because your FF always mentions (there), this word is point of a place, so like I went alone there.
            May everyone have a good safe hunting there.

          • Hello rhonny. Thank you for sharing your thoughts. I’ll be sure to look at the scrapbook and see what you are describing.

        • I’m in Lakewood, 6th/Simms. If anyone needs a botg partner. Could do our own Fenn meetup maybe? I’m still armchair-ing it, but only because I lack the confidence in any spots. Pdenver I very much enjoy your perspective and grace you bring to HoD, would be fun to meet you someday.

          • Tbug,

            I might consider a partner, but you would have to do the work with, heavy loads, as I have only one good working leg.

            I’m not all greedy. 🙂


          • I used to live right in your neighborhood when I first moved to Colorado, Tbug. Small world! Unfortunately, I moved away JUST before the light-rail stop was opened up; that would have been nice for my commute!

    • Charlie, this is the ‘Odds and Ends’ thread. After you have been in this chase as long as some of us, you will be a little ‘Odd’ too. Until then you can be an ‘End’! Lol. 🙂
      Seriously though, there is a wealth of knowledge on this site. Get ready to be pulled in, hook, line and sinker!

    • Sorry Charlie! Star Kist wants tunas that taste good! not tunas with good taste.
      try fishing different waters Charlie M.

      opinion mine.

    • I need to retract my complete statement above, As I was feeling a little frustrated. I need to be more, a lot more patience with trying to find things that would be helpful in my solve. I greatly need to apologize to all on this blog.


      • Charlie your apology is a testament to your character. Oh, the things you will read and the places you will travel in your mind. Enjoy the journey.

    • Alexander Hamilton was the first to propose the concept of manifest destiny. Does that help?

  23. With respect to “a comprehensive knowledge of geography…”
    IMO, Seeker’s reminding us of F’s quote is quite relevant.
    I would suggest, IMO, that searchers review, say, a college level introductory book on geography. It “might” help.
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  24. The FF quote- “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did”.

    I think the ‘The clues didn’t exist when I was a kid..”, simply means he hadn’t thought of his clues descriptions when he was a kid. He just didn’t think if them until he wrote the poem. IMO. Though, the places his clues describe and refer to did exist when he was a kid.

    Just my opinion.

  25. How is the ff comment about a sandwich relevant to the poem? Remember; “You might want to take a sandwich and a flashlight.”

    Why? Simple as that sounds it may be profound, IMO ff is telling you that the poem is layered, once a light shines on the full dimension of it’s architectural structure the picture comes into focus.

    Now ask yourself if we build a sandwich up vertically or is it structured horizontally?

    It has been said that straight lines do not exist in nature so when people ask why I think borders are important it makes sense if you see the layers like a sandwich, horizontally, just start with those itty-biddie not naturally created lines but latitude lines at the borders (not the Book Store) but hinted there, consider the 4 Mountain States. WW1 (Bell Tolls) is at 32 degrees, go north, layer upon layer since ff started from the South in Texas, who’s border is also at that 32 degree ie the bottom of our sandwich at Old Mexico.

    When and where was the TC last seen? Santa Fe, NM so if each layer moves one closer to where he hid it and we head north and assuming he followed the clues, why wouldn’t the Border Lines be in play?


    • “How is the ff comment about a sandwich relevant to the poem? Remember; “You might want to take a sandwich and a flashlight.”

      To me this simply means that I will need extra nourishment and a flashlight to see better in shaded spots such as a crevice; or better to see in between objects shaded of sunlight. When at higher elevations, for those less accustomed , it is recommended that a high carbohydrate meal ( such as sandwich) before and during is eaten. I need to eat far more calories and carbs when I am hiking in higher elevations. This really helps to keep elevation sickness in check- proper hydration etc.

      It could be at peak daylight time of day and between rocks or crevices can be of a very dark shade. Having a flashlights in hand would help see better in these circumstances.

      “You might want to take a sandwich and a flashlight.”

      Just seems to be simple advice relative to elevation and location of the poems clues.

      Just my opinion, for me.

      • Alset, maybe the sandwich is needed to offset the excessive adrenaline rush so you don’t toss your cookies and the flashlight is needed to look for scorpions and blackwidows.

        • Within the current status of this chase, ‘maybe’ is an inherent apparent spark of thoughts and ideas .Lol. IMO .

    • TT,
      The thought process is good. But are you relying on the flashlight and sandwich analogy too much in hoping to make the thought process more convincing?

      I ask, because fenn said they are certainty not clues, right?
      Yet, as you explain,… the comment seems very important, enough to be clue[s] because you use the sandwich’s layer [ sandwich state by fenn ] to match layers of latitude lines. That would be a huge clue in my book, because it would actually get you closer, right? The layering of lat. lines.

      So why would fenn later say… they are certainly not clues? LOL, I mean, not in an outhouse is a “clue” right? Not in a graveyard a “clue”… and I can’t see those “clues” getting anyone closer… so how is this not a clue in your eyes?
      Don’t get me wrong… I have looked into the 32 degree things in many ways, as well as latitude lines. But we have fenn’s more recent Q&A saying… nope.

      Trust me, when the comment that there are many wwwh in the RM’s and “nearly all are North” of SF came out… it killed a theory of mine. Didn’t the Q&A give you pause to say… oh crap?

      • Seeker –

        I am not a 32 degrees person. I have spent a lot of time looking at the 45th parallel.

        Lots of great sounding stuff between 44 and 46 degrees.


        • Me too. Actually, “below” the 45th.
          But as explained, fenn killed my glacial period theory with just two words ~ ‘nearly all’
          I mean, he doesn’t even know how many man hours [ thousands of years! ] I put into that perfect, one of a kind, fit all the clues, solve… How rude.

    • Twingem –


      You get the genius award for today. This is why so many of our friends and fellows cannot see the light. They do not understand what the best part of the sandwich is. It is the vary essence of the sandwich we seek!


    • If it’s an Oreo, then my vote is for the “middle” as the best part of the sandwich. I can’t remember…what is the difference between a hint and a clue?

      • My vote is for the cookie outside… because it hints at “Home of Brown”. The Cross of Lorraine logo may hint that “Home of Brown” is a mission. Missions were run by Brown Franciscans…

      • Clues get one closer to the tc and the hints help with the clues.

        It’s an important distinction that f made that I see get overlooked and miscomprehended often, IMO.

  26. JAKe,

    My apologies for taking so long to reply, but I’ve been out of country and out of touch with the HOB and have been playing catch-up for several days now. Only 700+ posts and Odds and Ends part 37 to go.

    So on 10/4/17 you posted “Thanks for fact-checking, Pinatubo. I appreciate your concern and your request for confirmation, and I agree with you 100% about care and accuracy in quoting.

    I only use quotation marks for actual quotes. But we all make mistakes, so I went back and triple-checked. It’s from a 7/17/16 interview on the Rudy Maxa Travel Show:

    (1:57) FENN: “Well it’s buried more than eight and a half miles north of Santa Fe in the Rocky Mountains but below the Canadian border.””

    Thank you very much for finding that quote. Now my head is really spinning. Not only does he say it’s buried, but he also said 8.5 miles, not 8.25. That said, IMO he misspoke saying 8.5. But he’s been adamant that he didn’t want to say buried, using “hidden” instead. This really throws a wrench into my line of thinking and if true require a precise location before you start digging.

    But here’s my dilemma which has been discussed here at the HOD recently. How can it be that if a searcher is 12’ away from the TC that “It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.” f

    The inference to me here is he is referring to someone actively searching (looking). But if it’s buried then you can’t see it. I’m giving myself a headache trying to piece together the logic and your surprising quote.

    It sure would be nice if the boss man would correct himself if these are accidental mistakes.

    Take care………Pinatubocharlie

    I must say that is the first time

    • Pinatubocharlie,

      Fenn has Umm errr screwed up a few times, actually.
      Once he said in his car, instead of from his car to hide the chest… so of course many thought that to be a clue. One time he was reading the poem and stated; If you’ve been brave and in the wood… so that raised a few eye brows as well.
      I think over the 7 plus years he’s allowed to make a few mistakes now and then… I mean, in the Q&A’s alone there are several misspelled works and names / SB’s as well, and we know those have to be all clues…
      But there is a quote floating around that might help with the ‘idea’ of buried. You could look for that and it may help to understand ‘buried’ Something about debris blowing in there…

      Just food for thought.

    • I believe the TC is more than 8.5 north of Santa Fe. This
      is not in conflict with the TC being more than 8.25 miles
      north of Santa Fe. It’s all good (i.e., in keeping folks
      away from FF’s home while searching).

      The TC may be buried by now with pine needles, bark,
      and similar bits of natural vegetation, even if not buried
      by FF. No issue there, as far as I’m concerned.

      If he put some kind of “marker” (such as a “tarry scant”) there, then the fortunate finder can move the pine needles, bark, etc. (as well as the “marker” if necessary)
      aside in order to see the TC. No biggie. All my opinion.

  27. Bowmarc, to make the X theory work it could be after hoB that you start the second line if you take the words “from there” to mean you are moving to another spot on the map.

    • Aaron- Have you found the 10′ X 10′ white X ? It is in my basement now as a souvenir, but it is still there on Google Earth!

      • OMG you removed a possible clue or the blaze, That’s two pieces of cra, umm, I mean, clues that might have been removed… we need a ruling on fair-play here… how many yards penalty will this affect the chase??

        • Seeker- You didn’t even know it existed until I told you. It is still there, but only on Google earth, where you can look back in time, forever. It was getting boring on the blog and people were stuck. I am only trying to help you. If you don’t need help- I’ll shut up.

          • I’m gonna put more thought to the poem’s clues as being; something a single searcher could not easily remove… that would mean anyone could remove any one or more clue[s] at any time… knowingly or not.

            Which might be a good question to ask fenn.
            Mr. Fenn~”Can a person easily remove a physical object or part of a landscape that involves a clue and / or in-part, of the solving of the poem?”

            The question’s keyword is ‘easily’ such as ‘you’ simply picking something up and taking it home, thinking it’s involved with the poem ‘this X thing’. Or a ‘scrap pieces of tire as a directional pointer’ Or ‘chopping down a tree as the blaze where the chest once laid in wait in wait but is gone now’ ~ regardless of some satellite imaging… or the use of a backhoe or chain saw or dynamite.

      • Sherif…I hope you were just kidding. A lot of those types of markers are installed for mapping or survey update purposes. carry on…

  28. The following is just an interesting twist on reading the poem…

    And take it (some of the water) in the canyon down
    Not far, but too far to walk (water doesn’t walk it runs)
    Put in (the water that you brought) below the home of Brown

    The end is ever drawing nigh ( the water is running through something or along something)
    There’ll be no paddle up your creek (the little creek you just made)
    Just heavy loads and water high (is the water flowing along an edge taking your eyes to a blaze?)

    Again, this is not a solve of mine, just thought I’d share another way to read the poem to get the juices flowing….all IMO

    • So, what is BIWWWH, and FTINPFTM. Not saying this is your solve or anything, just a different way to look at the poem is fine, but, the thought doesn’t interact with two major lines in the poem. Would f really do this? Plus, it’s not really following any instructions.
      I’m not trying to be total negative, it’s not your solve, just a thought, but Seeker for awhile now has been posting about the water thing, and that it’s the water you take in or follow. If you’re going to try this thought out, I think you should talk more with him on the subject.

    • I like the play on words run and walk, to mean the waters run into the canyon and not so much the searcher walks into the canyon. Poetic and analytical to what water does vs. what we may not need to do. Oh! and keep an almost rhyming / half rhyme word.
      Some times that method is used to put more emphasis on another part or parts of two lines [ thought here is begin it and take it ] thought; we begin it at this clue and we take it in… the view down.
      That was a nice catch to an obvious… If planned that way.
      But how do you use halt if some waters still ‘run’ down?

      Sometimes I think we forget … its still a poem.

    • That is a great idea. But I think “Begin it..” is linked to “take it”— and if so it is not referring to taking some of the water with you. But it’s great to see a new idea like that.

  29. We all know from wwwh, you take it in the canyon down, why couldn’t it be that F went back up another canyon to put in below the HoB and from there went up futher away from the HoB to where the blaze is at, then down to where he hid the treasure?

    I’m also thinking that there maybe more than two trips to retrieve from where the treasure is to get it in the car. He may have used a backpack to carry the treasure in two trips because the terrain was somewhat steep and his footing may not have been that good. Because the footing may not be good requiring the assistance of both hands to get back up one may need to make more than two trips because of the terrain.

    I believe one could do this and not be very far from where the blaze is at and it would take some time to navigate the landscape which would be very tiring which would make F weak. I also believe a 79 year old could do this.

    All IMO

  30. Broadcaster, actor, filmmaker, reporter and penman Allen Abel has produced a riveting story about Forrest and the treasure hunt published in the latest Maclean’s Magazine. Look here:

    By the way-if you are interested in knowing more about the pervasive Mr. Abel, look here:
    if you’d like to hire him to voice your next documentary look here:

    • Thanks Dal,

      That is a well written and very interesting article. I appreciate your sharing that with us.

      • I wonder how recent an email has forrest received from a seeker indicating they have been within 500 ft.

    • Thanks for the links, Dal! Nice writing, and some good, condensed information included. For instance, the summary of where the chest is NOT:

      “It’s not in Canada, not in a graveyard, not in a mine, not in a cave, not underwater, not in Utah, not in Idaho, not south of Santa Fe, not lower than 5,000 feet above sea level, not higher than 10,200 feet, not near a dam, and not under an outhouse.”

      We can add a few more NOTs: Not on top of a mountain, not near the Rio Grande River, and not under a man-made object.

      I liked this new quote: “The poem is written in plain English words that mean exactly what they say. No need to figure pounds per square inch, head pressures, acre feet, square roots, or where true north is, to find the solution.” That last example should put a bit of a wet blanket on astronomy-based solutions, or those that depend on archaic word definitions, or words being translated into other languages. Plain English, not scholarly or deceptive English.

      • Zap…Do you think that is a new quote…or a paraphrased quote by a lazy writer? It matters not for me, but other passages in this story sounded paraphrased as well. I do like plain English words though…

        • Ken –

          As I have said for years.
          We are OFTEN not quoting Fenn. We are quoting the reporter. A distinction should be made.

          Classic example Good Map. Fenn did not write that. So he may have been referencing Goode, the cartographer. But we all ran with Good.


          • You know the guy that made all the maps and the actual RM almanac, because it’s made up of his maps.

            When I look at the old maps there are town or cities that do not appear on Google.

          • It’s in Scrapbook 62, Lug – why do you think he didn’t write it?

            (It’s possible he dictated it, but it’s not like it was transcribed from a talk or interview – at least as far as I can tell).


          • Hey Lugnutz.

            “A good map….”

            Ah yes….what constitutes a good map. I posted a small treatise on this a while back…if you don’t recall it, you should check it out…..

            One thing about the research of this comment by F, was that I found out FF is a AAA member. AAA loves maps…all kinds.

            I pulled plenty for Yellostone back in 2014 and still wonder to this day, if one of those maps is the “good map” to use.

            I just don’t know.

            Cheers and good luck.

          • Tim –

            I have a drawer full of old folding road maps. I love those maps.

            I also use the internet to tap into collections of old maps.

            The old maps show lots of things that Google does not. The old maps contain earlier names for geographic locations.


      • Ha, Zap,
        So plain English only means modern English?
        Isn’t that the same as saying; perspective, only means what is seen.
        Or cold is only a temperature, not a sensation, or a reference to.
        Archaic might be a word you would like to look up.

        Or could plain English mean, no subcategory of the root word needed…such as Latin to English?
        Or simply mean no translation from other languages needed? Such as Spanish…

        Why do some dismiss the fact, yes fact, that Fenn told us he looked up meanings and definition of words and changed them and the poem came out exactly like he wanted.

        So, I have to ask… Ya should have seen this coming, lol… How does your theory related to “plain English”?

        • Seeker,
          I believe Allen Abel wrote what he thought he heard and you quoted as “plain English”. For a fleeting moment I thought I heard “plane English”. Big stretch? Deep rabbit hole? Too much specialized knowledge?

      • Hi Ken – Since the author is a professional and put those words in quotation marks, even if they are paraphrased I think they are likely to be close to the spirit of what Forrest intended. Forrest again and again has warned against “overcooking” interpretations of the poem.

        • Ha, what does over cooking mean? You would need a slang dictionary to help with that clue, compared to… Plain English. And in either case (using that tool) there is always a context needed for a full understanding.

          So I kinda agree with you…in concept… We need to be careful of how we look for “information”

      • Seeker: I’ll leave it to you to overcook Forrest’s words if that’s your thing, but I think you’ll have some difficulty reconciling that strategy with the skill sets of Forrest’s self-proclaimed target audience (every redneck in Texas with 12 kids, etc.)

        “Or could plain English mean, no subcategory of the root word needed…such as Latin to English?
        Or simply mean no translation from other languages needed? Such as Spanish…”

        I think if you spouted off like this to Forrest, he would likely have a response similar to the one about maps to Agent 777: “Come on, Seeker. English is English.”

        “So, I have to ask… Ya should have seen this coming, lol… How does your theory related (sic) to “plain English”?”

        It relates to it just fine. There is no obscure, scholarly, slang, archaic word translation that I have to uncover in the OED. The instructions are simple. Read the poem and try to marry its clues to a spot on the map.

        • Zap…I can almost see the veins in your forehead!… from here. The quoted sentences seemed abridged in comparison to the common(similar) ATF we have heard over and over. Allen’s article was well written with an obscure/mystical element to it…and I am thrilled that Dal shared it with us all. BUT…even with his pedigree(Allen’s) taken into account…I don’t take those folks too seriously. I mean…look at all the misquotes over the years. Tony D. AKA the Joker wouldn’t know a real story if it punched him right in the head…even after doing a lengthy interview. Quotation marks are not real until the person being quoted backs it up…period. Another but…I think Fenn probably did mean or say “plain English”. Ha!
          Harvey Goodwin

          • The “thing” is Seeker…who is thing one and who is thing two? jeez…I’m glad I did not read that before bed yesterday….I think you burnt it!

          • kens – which “fore-head” are you referring to, precisely?

            i mean ..i’ll take the two on my far left if you take the three to your right!
            ..& don’t forget to use ya shield as a mirror, btw!!

            ( ..think “Odysseus” here 🙂 )

          • curious…what up? How do you come up w/five- head…we was talking four-head. I see that the general election has given you a new PM.

          • i know right!? ..there’s def a great Tarantino movie right there i reckon!! 🙂

            ( ..eat ya heart out Isaac Asimov – ken’s about to go Wellywood, big time!! 😛 )

          • Hi CH:/Ken: Seeker doesn’t boost my BP, though there might be a few dents in my wall from banging 2 or more of my heads against it. Each (searcher, not “of my heads”) has his preferred approach for deciphering the poem, and Seeker just happens to have a dictionary and thesaurus near the top of his toolbox. I might be more inclined to dig out the Random House tome if Forrest had specifically called out a dictionary as being one of the “good research materials”. I chose to focus on maps since he did name them.

          • Zap,
            You like the idea that fenn never said the word “dictionary” as a tool… But you do recall Q&A’s and auto interviews where fenn actually tells us what he did? Give’s examples of word usages … wordsmith Q&A about “several” for example, or bending the word “admire” to make it work in Andrew’s Q&A, or the book-ttotc itself saying; “I tend to use some words that aren’t in the dictionary, and others that are, I bend a little.”
            or the podcast where fenn explains;
            “I looked up words and definition of words…. IT [the poem] turned out exactly like I wanted”

            Maybe it’s just me, that sounds like
            “plain English”

          • Zap…most “thing”s I say are merely food for thought… or just random bits meant for the circular file.
            When Fenn talked about the poem being a map…and he referenced research materials…I did “feel” a positive reaction. I love maps and have used them in many ways over the years. I have never burned one though.
            Marrying the poem to a map is going to get the job done. With that said…I will openly admit that I also have not disregarded Fenn’s comment about looking words up…and I have honestly spent a ton of time re- learning some words that I thought I had good command of. I also like to remember Fenn’s remark about it not really making a difference what words correctly/improperly used… as long as folks understand what he is saying. And that is the understatement of the year….
            I’ll say this one again…listen to Fenn read the poem and note the pause and total disregard of the written punctuation…sounds like it’s Creeleyized.

          • Yes, Seeker, well aware of all the Fenn remarks about what he did in the course of crafting his poem. If he had used a word that I didn’t know, I might have consulted a dictionary. But I definitely needed maps because I don’t have a comprehensive knowledge of geography of the Rockies.

          • Zap,
            Of course maps are needed… it’s common sense to utilize them [simply because of the description within the poem]. But IF fenn never “said” GE and/or Maps would you not think about using them? Or even think about geography… long before fenn suggested it?
            Would you argue the use of GE if fenn only mentioned “maps”. There would be no indication of electronic satellite mapping, right? But it is still a map, right?
            So when the man indicated he looked up word, and the poem is exactly like he wanted it… how can you argue that plain English doesn’t mean [ for example ] warm; a color, or a feeling or even a condition or take it in as only a physical track and not a view?

            But now, attempting to use your logic… you said; “But I definitely needed maps because I don’t have a comprehensive knowledge of geography of the Rockies.”

            Kinda ironic you added that, when we didn’t have the “Rockies” mentioned in that particular original quote. Nor the fact that the study [comprehensive knowledge] of geography includes not only the land, but animals [humans] plants and water life… to the affects they have on a planet.
            I’m not being a smart-ass here… think about the word “affect” and think about the comment; The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult f

            My thought is this… IF normal movement can have an affect of the poem and/or clues, and fenn thoughts of ‘down the road’ …How important do the words in the poem become to be precisely able to lead one to a 10″ spot… or did fenn simply mean something like… If YS pops it cork.

            You don have to agree with anything I say or think about the ATF and the poem… But for me only, and for a conversation between you and I, Can you give me reasonings I’m wasting time understand the words in the poem as very important.

            My ‘thoughts’ of plain English is to mean “non-technical” and though knowledge of geography might help… we still are looking for the words in the poem to be followed “precisely,” right?
            What is your usage of “Follow”? or for that matter “lead”
            Follow only to be of a physical movement or an understanding?
            Lead as shown how to go, or be lead on a halter
            LOL see what I did there…halt’er – halter… plain English.

          • Hi Seeker — since this is a treasure hunt with clues, yes I would have looked at maps regardless.

            “So when the man indicated he looked up word, and the poem is exactly like he wanted it… how can you argue that plain English doesn’t mean [ for example ] warm; a color, or a feeling or even a condition or take it in as only a physical track and not a view?”

            But I don’t need a dictionary for those interpretations, Seeker. That’s my point. There are no words or common word usages in the poem with which I am unfamiliar, and I don’t believe Forrest looked up words for the purpose of selecting a few with obscure or arcane meanings that we were meant to uncover through research. Instead, I believe he chose some words for purposes beyond their connotations. At times this may have left him with choices that were not ideal such as the failed halt/walk rhyme, and a somewhat clunky first stanza. He was “limited in his ability.”

            As for your example subset of topics falling under the umbrella of “geography,” I would recommend applying some common sense to Forrest’s remark about specialized knowledge coupled with his somewhat flippant “a map is a map.”

            “Can you give me reasonings I’m wasting time understand the words in the poem as very important.”

            “Thinking” about the words in the poem and their many possible interpretations is just fine! I’m totally on board with that. But why do you need a dictionary or thesaurus for that? William F. Buckley didn’t write the poem. For “plain English” your imagination should suffice.

            “… we still are looking for the words in the poem to be followed “precisely,” right?
            What is your usage of “Follow”?”

            For me it means to make the proper connections between the poem’s words and either the names, features or properties of places in the natural world that match them.

          • Zap.
            OK I guess we can forget the topic of word meanings and usages…
            I still need to look up “several” words from the poem, even if you don’t.
            However, the list in the understanding of geography is not a subset but the actual full study of geography.
            ~the study of the physical features of the earth and its atmosphere, and of human activity as it affects and is affected by these, including the distribution of populations and resources, land use, and industries.~
            In part, is the study of; the nature and relative arrangement of places and physical features.

            Ya see, it doesn’t take a rocket scientist to understand, if you think you know something… all ya have to do is double check yourself.
            With that thought in mind, I wonder if this relates to the backwards bike and being able to ‘best adjust’

            “…Write down the full definition of the word “several.” Then Google it and learn that many of us don’t fully understand some of the words we use every day.f ”

            Many of us don’t fully understand the words we use everyday? Aren’t everyday words the same as plain English?

            I guess because fenn said we need to “decipher” clues, we can dismiss the thought that;
            “…**codes,** depth meters, riddles, drones or **ciphers,** will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions….”

            I just want to finish of the last part of that quote as well “…Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f”

            And skip over; “… When you read the poem it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that.” [architect design]

            Like you said; “But why do you need a dictionary or thesaurus for that?”

            Well, plain English might mean; clarity, brevity, and avoidance of *overly complex vocabulary.* clear and unambiguous language, without the use of *technical or difficult terms.*

            Ya know, for the redneck in all of us. even if your pickup is a made by Cadillac.

          • And I will bet FF loves hearing that someone needs not look anything up because they are already familiar with all the definitions of each word.

          • Seeker: I think the most significant difference between how you approach solving the poem and how I do is that you prefer to maintain a very open interpretation of Forrest’s ATF remarks, while I adopt the most restrictive interpretation that I feel is safe.

            So on geography, while you favor an all-encompassing view that includes its atmosphere, morphology, population distribution, animals and so forth, I care only about the man-created elements: the boundaries, the geographic names of waterways, mountains, canyons, ridges and so forth, and ~possibly~ their geographic coordinates. I know that the mountains are moving, rivers and creeks change course or dry up, and preferred names have changed and will continue to change going forward. To me it matters not a wit. If that restrictive interpretation is the mistake that prevents me from finding the chest, I am fine with it.

            A big part of successful problem solving is deciding which pieces of information are not relevant. Information overload is just as effective at preventing discovery of a solution through obscuration as overly aggressive filtering is via elimination.

          • I would like to correct what you said if you don’t mind sir.

            Deciding which pieces if information are irrelevant is the a way to one successful solution. That doesn’t mean it is the correct successful solution.

            I represent a small piece of the work put into the most complex IT systems on the planet. We sometimes come up with a successful solution that the white coats and the suits and the brass agree on. Subsequently we revisit and advance the solution.

            What makes the difference is big data. We are better when we look at all the data. I try not to exclude anything prematurely. We each have too many prejudices and preferences.

            I have solves in 4 states because there are 4. I had solves in 5 states. When Fenn pulled Idaho that made me strongly reconsider my methods.

            Think of it this way, and I have recommended this to you previously Zap. What would you do if Fenns pulled Montana? I don’t belive you would quit. I believe you would change your thinking.


          • Good morning, Lugnutz. If we were all working together collectively to solve Fenn’s poem, we would have the luxury of considering a very broad solution space and pursuing all paths in parallel. But because of the value of the prize in this case, the situation is not analogous to something like GIMPS (those interested can Google it), and that sort of global data-crunching is eliminated.

            So, as individuals or small, mostly independent groups, I believe serious triage is necessary in order to have a chance of finding the correct solution in an average person’s lifetime.

            So as you correctly point out, each has his or her own biases, prejudices, strengths and weaknesses in problem solving, and it’s likely that few people possess the right mix.

            As for your hypothetical case for my consideration, if Forrest eliminated Montana, I actually ~would~ quit and move on to something else. It would be a painful decision after investing 3000+ hours, but the right one because it would mean the deck was stacked with Jokers.

          • Good Morning Zap!

            We are all working together, whether you realize it or not. You provide more data than most!

            When someone says maybe Brown is a reference to Casper Wy, I do not disregard that, I add it to the data set and analyze it.

            Let’s look at your theory, or one of your theories that I have embraced. You theorize that BTFTW is significant. You think that because Fenn uses those letters to begin words (sometimes) contiguously but at any rate in close proximaty that this holds significance. Close enough to how you think for hand grenades?

            Ok, so since you told me that I have identified several places in the 4 state area that contain geographic references or names that fit the bill. I have mentioned a couple on the Home of Dal. Clark Fork river valley is one.

            Noxon, Furlong, Belknap, Thompson Falls, Tuscor, Woodlin
            I think you can find place names in that valley for each letter multiple times actually. But I like the way one proceeds down canyon from Noxon to Woodlin. Wher’e WWH, maybe the border. Hey maybe Canyon Down represents CD so the whole sequence is NFBTFTW CD. Then CD can be Coeur D’alene forest. So then CD is not a direction or travel, down. It’a another place name.

            There are many, many places to explore between Sandpoint and Missoula. That’s where I have been focused this year and I get all that and more just from one of your ideas.


            I will add that Furlong does not appear on Google Maps. It’s on an older map I have.

          • Lugnutz: I’m glad you feel that I’m contributing something useful, and that you’re willing to explore the possibilities and implications of some of my hints. If nothing else, some of my posts bring lurkers out in the open — if only to tell me “Shhh!” And they may have a point…

          • Well I don’t know what your WW HoB or Blaze are. Maybe you have it all nailed down.

            I have never heard Fenn say that anyone has nailed Home of Brown. Although he has mentioned chasers were close enough to TC that I can figure they must know HoB.

            I think you are searching in the wrong loc. Based on this I don’t think you need to keep anything to yourself. I also think that per your own theory the more you share the closer you get.


        • There ya go again… Seeker: I’ll leave it to you to overcook Forrest’s words if that’s your thing,”
          The thing is, Zap…
          it’s fenn’s thing.
          Next contestant… for one million dollers and the win:
          Can you pick the correct plain English meanings and usages of “thing” for the above post?

          noun: thing; plural noun: things; noun: the thing; noun: one’s thing; plural noun: one’s things

          an object that one need not, cannot, or does not wish to give a specific name to.
          “look at that metal rail thing over there”
          synonyms: object, article, item, artifact, commodity; More
          device, gadget, instrument, utensil, tool, implement;
          entity, body;
          informalwhatsit, whatchamacallit;
          thingummy, thingy, thingamabob, thingamajig, doohickey, doodad, dingus
          “the room was full of strange things”
          personal belongings or clothing.
          “she began to unpack her things”
          synonyms: belongings, possessions, stuff, property, worldly goods, effects, personal effects, trappings, paraphernalia, bits and pieces, luggage, baggage, bags; More
          informalgear, junk;
          goods and chattels
          “I’ll come back tomorrow to collect my things”
          objects, equipment, or utensils used for a particular purpose.
          “they cleared away the last few lunch things”
          synonyms: equipment, apparatus, gear, kit, tackle, stuff; More
          implements, tools, utensils;
          “his gardening things”
          anything (used for emphasis).
          noun: a thing
          “she couldn’t find a thing to wear”
          used to express one’s disapproval or contempt for something.
          “you won’t find me smoking those filthy things”
          all that can be described in the specified way.
          “his love for all things Italian”
          used euphemistically to refer to a man’s penis.
          an inanimate material object as distinct from a living sentient being.
          “I’m not a thing, not a work of art to be cherished”
          a living creature or plant.
          “the sea is the primal source of all living things on earth”
          used to express and give a reason for one’s pity, affection, approval, or contempt for a person or animal.
          “have a nice weekend in the country, you lucky thing!”
          synonyms: person, soul, creature, wretch; More
          informaldevil, bastard
          “you lucky thing!”
          an action, activity, event, thought, or utterance.
          “she said the first thing that came into her head”
          synonyms: activity, act, action, deed, undertaking, exploit, feat; More
          task, job, chore
          “I’ve got several things to do today”
          thought, notion, idea;
          concern, matter, worry, preoccupation
          “I’ve got other things on my mind just now”
          remark, statement, comment, utterance, observation, declaration, pronouncement
          “I keep remembering things he said”
          incident, episode, event, happening, occurrence, phenomenon
          “quite a few odd things happened”
          circumstances, conditions, or matters that are unspecified.
          “things haven’t gone entirely according to plan”
          synonyms: matters, affairs, circumstances, conditions, relations; More
          state of affairs, situation, life
          “how are things with you?”
          an abstract entity, quality, or concept.
          “mourning and depression are not the same thing”
          synonyms: characteristic, quality, attribute, property, trait, feature, point, aspect, facet, quirk More
          “one of the things I like about you is your optimism”
          fact, piece of information, point, detail, particular, factor
          “there’s another thing you should know”
          an example or type of something.
          “the game is the latest thing in family fun”
          a situation or activity of a specified type or quality.
          noun: a thing
          “your being here is just a friendship thing, OK?”
          a romantic or sexual relationship.
          “Phil and Lisa had been having a thing”
          an established or genuine phenomenon or practice (typically used in expressions registering surprise or incredulity).
          “according to media reports, sleep texting is now a thing among serious smartphone addicts”
          what is needed or required.
          “you need a tonic–and here’s just the thing”
          what is socially acceptable or fashionable.
          “it wouldn’t be quite the thing to go to a royal garden party in boots”
          synonyms: fashion, trend, style, rage, fad
          “it’s the latest thing”
          one’s special interest or concern.
          “reading isn’t my thing”
          synonyms: what one likes, what interests one; More
          informalone’s cup of tea, one’s bag, what turns one on
          “books aren’t really my thing”
          used to introduce or emphasize an important point.
          “the thing is, I am going to sell this house”
          synonyms: fact of the matter, fact, point, issue, problem
          “the thing is, I’m not sure if it’s what I want”

          • LOL, Sorry Dal… just having some fun… just delete this post. Its way to long for only fun and game.

          • What in Blazes are you talkin about Seeker? If thing def. is long, what is the definition of “Blaze”.

            Wow, sometimes you just can’t take a word outa textual intent, note textual not Sex__, isn’t that why we study the writer? To appreciate intent?

            Some how this meaning gets lost in translation..


          • I should have posted “this” instead of “that” so you wouldn’t get confused about the “thing”;
            ~”I looked up words and definitions of words and changed them, went back and rebooted… it turned out exactly like I wanted…”

            Just for fun. Here’s a thought;
            Plain English; Writing the English language without using ‘technical terms.’

    • Thanks Dal,

      Interesting article, thanks for the link.

      The author is he serious? Just asking. There are inaccuracies such as jewels, nothing much about gold in the chest as an example.


      • Jewels means precious stones,. Where is that inaccurate?

        I know this because my smarty told me.

        • To me he said very little about the gold and all the coins and put more emphasis on the jewels. I believe is the other way around.


          • All he was doing was quoting Edgar Allen Poe,s ” The gold bug”. His dream was then shattered by” we are almost out of gas”.
            I like his penning even if I think the Area is not correct..ie; it being private land etc…imo. 🙂

      • There are many inaccuracies in this article plus his insult towards are community:

        To search for, but not find, Forrest Fenn’s hidden treasure is to join a society of losers who salve themselves with the bromide that the hunt itself is the real reward

        IMO Does seem like he paraphrased much of what Fenn said, so how useful can quotes like these be?

        • Count…yes, it was his tone that ticked me off and made me realize that his views were biased…and likely written with a less than positive attitude toward accuracy. I believe more folks with his same interests will chime in to be heard amidst the clamor to attach themselves to Fenn and the growing interest in the Chase. The Trilogy…and the quest to be heard.

    • Thanks for sharing, Dal.

      My big takeaway from the article is that we have another instance (the 2nd that I am aware of, the first being this TV interview: https://www.cbsnews.com/videos/whos-the-rightful-owner-of-a-found-treasure/ ) of Forrest giving very specific instructions as to what one is legally supposed to do in the case of the treasure being found at a National Park, and not bothering to go into any similar detail with other possible areas (State Parks, BLM land, Tribal land, etc.).

      IMO, this seems to be a strong indicator that a National Park is the correct place to search.

    • Can anyone confirm the following taken from the Maclean article, “and on this road there are areas for kayak put-ins and take-outs and for the monks’ sanctuary as well.”, because this is the first time I’ve ever seen such a reference. To be clear, I don’t think this a quote from Forrest, it’s just a reporters idea of what he think he heard, but I may be wrong.


      • It doesn’t read to me like he’s attributing all that to FF, Pinatubo. More like this:

        “. . . he [ff] did say that ‘he was able to deposit his cache at the age of 79 or 80 in two easy walks from a parking lot,’ *** and on this road [where I am right now with Rosy and Petey] there are areas for kayak put-ins and take-outs and for the monks’ sanctuary as well.”

        The first part of the passage, Abel’s paraphrasing FF’s comments, and the second part he’s describing the road/area Rosy Verdile is showing him in New Mexico, that has places where one could park a car.


  31. While looking at a real estate page about a place in the Jemez mountains I noticed that they had misplaced a map. The map showed road 79. Naturally my interest was triggered about the number 79. FF made a comment about how he was 79 in TTOTC when he hid the treasure. To me that was a hint.
    I looked it up, and it turns out that road 79 is the Upper Canyon road. It goes along the Santa Fe River, passing the city reservoirs. It is also a place where earlier searchers went, but I have never got around to going.
    The road doesn’t appear to go the full 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe. However, I believe that there is a trail head at the end. This may be a good place to look at the fall leafs changing to gold this week.
    Has anybody been up this road?

    • Years ago I went up and roamed around some. This was not Chase related. Audubon Society has a place up there too. Probably good leaf peeping area though…

  32. The article yesterday was really interesting. “…two easy walks from a parking lot..” . So if you are walking long distances or the walking isn’t easy, you might want to go back to the poem.

    • From a parking lot? 1st time i have heard this. Wondering if Abel,s article added this . Anyone ever read or heard from Forrest himself that the two trips made to hide the treasure was from a parking lot.COMMENTS

      • I think it was Ken who said it many posts ago… The article was most likely written from notes or memory [close enough for horseshoe]… the author of the article also could have done some homework and researched some blogs to get a feel of the participants… Now step back and be that author. [ who gets paid to write something exciting ]
        How many time have we heard “parking lot” used for a solve. And as far as memory and notes go… lol… searchers themselves don’t have a great track record for accuracy either. Not to mention that the forward of the new memoirs, there is mentioned of a “parking lot”
        While these interviews are great IF the quotes are accurate… the only way to “know” for a “fact” of anything, is through an audio of fenn saying it. A perfect example of this is Loco finding such an audio of fenn say… wwwh is the first clue. The other “only factual avenue” we can trust fully is fenn stating something in writing / typing, such as Q&A’s and those type of interactions with searchers, because he deliberately wanted them posted.
        Seriously, how many times has a poster claim fenn said something by e-mail, and after much coasting to post said e-mail, we discover that the searcher original post was nothing more than “their interpretation” of the e-mail.
        Or we never actually see that said e-mail and other bloggers re-posted it, and now many think it was actually stated the way the original poster hope it meant., and think it if factual to the chase.

        Buried vs. hidden is the perfect example of how an interview can create a wrong message by saying something like; A buried treasure in the Rocky mountains of NM, north of SF, a man placed a chest with 5 million dollar in gold for anyone to find.
        Kinda, sorta, right?
        Note; quotes used in “this” post are meant as “emphasis,” and “not factual”… even though that should be “obvious”

        Oh right, all above is nothing more than opinions. Nothing to see here folks, move along…

    • Thank you. It is a good article and helpful since I finally have decent waders – Overnight drying happens on a hook in the RV shower stall –

  33. JDA, are you out there? You have had some brilliant deductions (IMHO) regarding lines in the poem. Seeker just brought up the “buried vs. hidden” idea. Forrest said could be either. However, a shovel and a metal detector are not needed. Gloves would be a good idea. Has anyone come up with anything in the poem that might shed light on this? Has Forrest indicated in any interview that there could be rocks set on top of the TC in its hollow?

    • EOG-
      I agree that Forrest has ruled out that any tools are required to retrieve the chest…
      Which would suggest to me that it is not buried.
      Back in 2015 Forrest gave an interview to KOAT-TV in which the reporter claimed that Forrest said “If you know where it is you won’t have to dig around. You don’t need to disturb anything.”

      Forrest has made other remarks similar to this on record and in my presence. I believe he has ruled out the possibility that it is buried…subtly…rather than directly…

      • Hi Dal – Based on my interpretation of the poem, it does say how the chest is hidden. So if one was in the right spot and had not solved the final clue, I think it’s very possible that a searcher would not find the box. My current theory suggests that there have been some people whether searchers or others that have been very close like a few feet close, but weren’t able to connect with the final clue thus missing the opportunity of a lifetime. I realize Forrest said it’s not likely that a person would get within 12′ and not find it. I think that comment is a strong hint to a clue and doesn’t necessarily mean that one will see the chest when standing within 12′. And the fennwork continues.

      • Agreed Dal. There are no tools required to retrieve the chest.

        No shovel required.

        No metal detector required.

        No ax required.

        No tools – so that also supports the notion that a child can be the one who finds and brings it home! IMO

    • Ecstasy of Gold,

      If I said to you, the treasure is buried in the hollow log and then come back later in the same conversation and said it is hidden in the hollow log. Wouldn’t that be the same meaning or inference? Can using gloves be wise as to not get splinters or be poked with pine needles etc, in the wood?


    • In contrast, there is the Collected Works Bookstore interview in 2013 where Forrest made it sound like a metal detector could be useful…
      A question was asked by someone in the crowd if a metal detector would help locate the chest…
      Forrest answered-
      “A metal detector will help you if you are in exactly the right spot.”

      This is always the case with a metal detector. They won’t help at all unless you are in exactly the right spot…
      Here is an example..
      A woman drops her silver band ring into a gravel parking lot. She knows within a few feet where she dropped it. She gets down on her hands and knees to look but can’t find it. The ring is down there somewhere but it is pretty much the same color as the gray gravel and does not stand out.
      She goes to the trunk of her car and gets her metal detector and starts scanning the area where the ring was dropped..
      Nothing happens at first but the moment the detector is directly over the ring it signals that there is silver underneath…
      In other words a MD only helps when you are in exactly the correct spot.
      Further, her ring was not buried. It was simply camouflaged by the surrounding materials…hidden, not buried…
      If her eyes were better she might have found it without the detector since it was not buried…

      I think the chest might be in a similar situation.

      • It’s hard enough to find the right location. The “camouflaged” worries me if that is the case. Many thanks.

      • …but if you have possession of a metal detector in a national park, it’s a felony (not using the metal detector, just having it!). So for those folks that travel in Yellowstone, beware. Not everyone knows this.

        I don’t think a metal detector will help in this chase, The reason is that you must be in precisely “The Spot” and that’s what nobody has been able to do yet.

        It’s figuring out the poem to bring on to “The Spot” that is the difficult (almost impossible) part. IMO

      • This is one of the reasons I tell folks that just because someone else has searched an area where the clues lead you is not a good reason not to check for yourself. The previous folks may have been looking up when they should have looked down or simply didn’t recognize it. You should always check for yourself…regardless of how many folks have been to that spot…if the clues lead you there…

    • Safety first thread~”…It is not necessary to move large rocks or climb up or down a steep precipice, and it is not under a man-made object.”

      LOL… I hope this doesn’t start a debate on large as in size or in weight… but there is its.
      It also kinda removes the thought, fenn made something as a maker for the spot of the chest… Please note; the word “spot” to infer under that spot or directly aside of, as to the chest’s location. AND just to be clear… a mark in my mind is not a man-made “object” as is a marker.

      • Being that the treasure has been at large for a few/several years…it is good to have discussions about how Fenn has “hidden” said treasure.
        I agree that if he made/manufactured a mark of any kind at the exact chest location…that would mean that would be something manmade. I wonder if that holds true for the blaze as well. A manmade blaze would be easier to spot…would it not?

        • Hypothetically, scratching a mark doesn’t necessarily mean man made… if a bear did the same would it be animal made and still fall in lines as a object that is made?

          The blaze is a different story, If it’s not on or very near the ‘spot’… lol but now we have ‘associated’ with to worry about.. in the same hypothetical.
          [Personally] ~ I don’t see a clue or clues being man made unless those clues can past the time standards, and, not directly a point that is going to be at the hidey spot. Example for my thought only; hoB is probably not a house, as some interviewer have stated ‘ house of Brown ‘ But it could be a dwelling of sorts for habitation. Would it be impossible to think that wwwh could also fall into the habitation location.

          I mean, we don’t dwell on that clue enough as it is, right?

          Ecstasy of Gold, You said; It’s hard enough to find the right location. The “camouflaged” worries me if that is the case.

          Just wondering why worry about the hide if ya don’t even have a location. Seems if we figure that out the hide will present itself.

          • Of course the reply comes to mind “Who says “we” haven’t?” 🙂
            One can always dream. One last BOTG before winter.

          • Funny you should say that “we” part.
            With fenn’s comment about…no one has give him all the clues in order, does make ya think, that all the clues [over seven years] might have been mentioned. Just not by one person or group and not in the correct order.

            That will surely open a can of worms.

      • However, a few smaller rocks or a handle of gravel would probably be enough to cause the searcher to miss the TC. IMO

        • Hi Ecstasy O’ AU: a lot of forms of such obscuration would not last long (wind, water, rot), and we also have Forrest’s remarks that you won’t have to move heavy rocks or “disturb” anything. As Dal pointed out, tends to kill the outright burial hypothesis (thankfully!) But if Forrest was also looking decades or even millennia down the road, geographic positioning of the chest would be a concern. For example, hiding the chest at the base of a scree or talus field risks future burial and impossibility of recovery if not outright destruction. So a meadow is better than a mountainside. It’s not that easy to hide something so that it stays hidden from the casual eye, yet can still be found well into the future.

        • Many suggestions by many searcher were, fenn could have made;
          a bronze plaque, a hollowed rock, carve statue, an alien egg [ That whole soul snatching thing a few years back. But that might not be man-made, unless… ]

          One of my favorites was a hole quicksand, only a foot deep or so, [don’t want the kiddies to get stuck in there]. I don’t know the exact process, but I’m sure you can google it… if you want to.

  34. To my knowledge, no one has noted that f actually says in the poem that the cache is at the end of the rainbow. That is spelled out in the line “I have done it tired and now I’m weak” I don’t think it helps much but
    1. Done= end 2.Tired comes from tiered which= row or rank 3. weak= Bend

    Put that all together and and you have a rainbow!

    Therefore f is saying it is at the end of the rainbow.

    I have helped you. Does anyone have useful info that will help me?

    • Sherif Billy…many folks have pointed out that in TTOTC pages 131+132 Fenn wrote “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my “rainbow” and the treasure.” My opinion is that this was less contrived and spelled out in plain English. Thanks for sharing Billy and good luck in your Chase…

      • Ken –

        Or maybe the Sheriff is on to something. Maybe in each clue phrase we should be putting words together to hint at a location.

        It’s not a bad idea and I would like to hear more form him.


        • Which would be a good idea for why halt and walk are needed or B for brown etc. But are we pushing the idea that 9 clues in consecutive order would only produce ‘nine’ needed words?

          The idea has been done before though… using different method and including this example.
          One was counting 42 letters out or 9 letters or letters and spaces, another was simple Scrabble type word meshing, others with computer programs and ciphers etc. etc.

          The problem I see in the above example is making a new word from tired to tiered while adding another letter. If each word was deliberate, why use a sound alike and not a correct letter in the right place, only to end up with a single word or a line.
          “hear me all and listen good”?

          Could be IDK, but for any type of method to work, it can’t be one word spelled out using letter, and another word for a sound alike… to make another needed word… holy crap, the options we could think of, that could produce 9 words, just went into the millions [ umm give or take a few hundred thousands ].

          I’m not discrediting, I’m dissecting.

          • My thoughts zackly Seeker. I will not discredit the idea… because at this point, who knows anything for sure. I just do not see a haphazard method working towards the end goal.
            My idea on the halt/walk dilemma is that the word *halt* was used because it of the necessity to describe a stop of sorts at that exact point without interrupting the rest of the line. That word(halt) fits that use and still has a similar sound as walk.
            That also fits “deliberate”.

          • I may not be following Ken, wouldn’t be the first time.

            Balk means the same thing if we mean pause or stop. I guess specifically Balk would mean something like about or delay.

            Anywho the word Balk fits and rhymes will walk.

            On the other hand if Halt USA must have and we are trying to rhyme it, well its tough.

            Of course if Halt is necessary and Walk is just a word that almost rhymes, that’s gonna throw Zap off.


          • Lug: “balk” cannot be used in place of “halt” for my solution. While the word balk shares some similarities with halt, it is not interchangeable in this particular instance. If it had been, I think Forrest would have used it.

          • I agree Zap.
            So that means he tried to rhyme it.
            “Walk” being the rhyme word means it could be substituted, which then kills BTFTW.

            One cannot have it both ways, right?


          • If you do your research on the origins of words and their meanings—you will find that the word “TIRED” originated from the word “tiered”.

          • Sherif: me don’t like it (apologies to The Clash): tiered vs. tired doesn’t rock my casbah. Methinks the knowledge required be too specialized.

          • **** Sherif Billy – “If you do your research on the origins of words and their meanings—you will find that the word “TIRED” originated from the word “tiered”.”

            Mmmmm, not in the two senses you’re comparing. A rubber tire on a wheel may just possibly be related to a tier, but tired for fatigued has no etymological connection with either.

          • And what’s the utility of finding “end of rainbow” encoded so elaborately in the poem when we already have it clearly written in the one-line intro to the poem?

            Even if true
            What does it do?


        • Lugnutz- Tell me how to contact you privately and I will give you some top secret info.

          • My example of showing the rainbow in the poem was just an example to get you to think. Yes, I already knew everyone was talking about the end of F’s rainbow. I was just trying to show you where it was in the poem. You really don’t think I would publicly reveal a major clue do you? That would be as stupid as being kicked twice by the same horse.

          • Sherif Billy

            I am the keeper off top secret information.
            Generally I think It’s a bad idea to be in email contact with arch other.

            I would like to hear you express more and elaborate hear on the HoD


    • Hate to tempt anybody to leave a busy rabbit trail. But, what does it matter? Yes, you would be at the “end of the rainbow” at this point but who cares, if you can’t – see – the rainbow at all.

      The hint to this line would be in the comma (IMHO)…”I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.” Do you think that ff just wanted you to know that he was tired and weak?

      Or does the comma tell…the rest of the story?

      • Then again it kinda makes a difference depending on the type of rainbow you are looking at. IMO

        • I also remember f saying if he had to fight the Indians, that he would like to fight them in the RAIN. He said the sinue on their BOW stretches and they can’t fight anymore. Do YOU think there might be a clue here?

      • LMN

        Looked at it as an actual clue may lead to a location on the map.

        Sherif Billy believes just that.


  35. That moment when you realize that the book signing for Fenn’s new book is the day before Thor: Ragnarok opens in theaters, and that both words “Thor” and “Hulk” appear in The Thrill of the Chase, and you pause a moment before thinking, “Naaaah…”

      • There’s a lot of folks who think “marvel” might have something to do with “Marvel” comics, and I love both Marvel Comics and the Chase, so, yeah, definitely was a pause moment. But there’s all kinds of weird coincidences I notice that relate to the Chase, that I think are interesting, but have nothing to do with an actual solution.

        Then again, most people don’t go around praying to Thor these days, so who knows! 🙂

    • Fenn mentions that he read comic (funny) books as a pre-teen (SB-82). And some have deciphered “marvel gaze” as meaning X-ray vision. Well most of us know that Superman is from DC comics not Marvel. But did you know that an obscure superhero named: “Olga Mesmer” was the first to have this power?


      • Randawg – uber-glad to hear you survived that ‘small rodent’ dilemma recently – sheesh, are you ok now?? 🙂

        as-it-so-happens tho, i was just chatting with uncle Clark, and he DID indeed confirm that he moonlighted with Marvel for a brief spell during the ’80’s..

        apparently that Harvey-guy was ‘creative director’ at DC at the time – but i def could be wrong ’bout that

        ( ..are you calling Superman a liar, Randawg?! 🙁 )

        • I’m fine Bert. Skunks are as commmon here as “Orcs” are where you live.
          But that was the first time one charged at me and it was a little unsettling.
          (Note: Superman told Lois he never lies).

        • c.mon Theo, i’m def sure (as mature adults) that those big-smelly “Orcs” are just another figment of Michael Jacksons vivid imagination, i mean..

          ..wait a minute?! ..is that a super-scary armoured creature (with a large sword and white handprint on it’s massive forehead) walking directly towards my location?? 🙁

          darn it!! ..where’s that Superman-guy when ya need hi[- end of transmission -]

    • The book signing is on a “Thors”day – our days of the week are named after the Norse gods. I actually love rabbit holes. But it should be no surprise that Ullr, stepson of Thor and god of snow and skiing, is my favorite Norse god.

  36. “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze…” the alchemical symbol for fire is an upright triangle. Fire corresponds to the zodiac sign Leo, the color red, the direction South, Summer, Wands (tarot) and Midday (the time of day Forrest hid the treasure?)

    “Look quickly down…” the alchemical symbol for water (the chest is wet) is an inverted triangle. Water corresponds to the zodiac sign Scorpio (Peggy), the colors purple/blue, the direction West, Autumn, Chalice/Cups (tarot), and Sunset.

    Just some bits and pieces of thought.

    • Hi Becky…you and I may be in an elite camp with thinking FF added esoterism to the map.

      I’m like you, I highly think he did add it into the thinking.

      Your post once again helps validate my previous thpughts I’ve sprinkled through the hoD.

      Welcome to Difficulty-land….just be yourself here.


      Good luck to you.

      • Hi Tim, thank you for the welcome *smile*. I’m by no means an expert on esotericism, but I’ve learned a lot about a little bit of everything in my search for patterns with the Chase.

        I hope that I can add to the conversation periodically. I’ve enjoyed reading your comments over the years.

    • Dal has stated that no tools will be needed to retrieve the treasure. Does he have a FENN quote ? Curiously waiting

      • Arnold,
        Without going through a big process… myself,
        I’ll “try” and paraphrase some comments you can look up for accuracy and judgement… if that helps. None will be exact— I’m working from memory and some comments are old, and even combined in the same comment.

        No need to disturb anything…
        If you can find it, it won’t be a big job to get it…
        While fool argue about tool, another will walk away with the chest…
        Then we have other comments, such as, the four elements and what could effect it.
        There is yet another comment fenn explaining, {somewhat} of why he didn’t want to say buried vs. hidden; debris could be blown in there [covering the chest]

        JCM’s documents has most, if not all of these comments and/or links to audios; found in “Books By Searchers” [right side of these topic pages.]
        The wording above should have enough ‘keywords” to do a search for the correct comment, Q&A etc… If on video or audio, obviously more searching is needed. But also note there are others comments on the subject that can be found, I didn’t mention.

    • Becky – you are such a rascal for suggesting Tarot cards, as Forrests comment re: Dame Fortunes Wheel has always peaked a curiosity in my search-world to date (79card deck/talking in circles etc)

      and your researched symbology of North/West (water/blaze) seems to align nicely with his “I’m thinking it may not be any of those (direct N,S,E or W) directions” imho

      btw, the “Magenta” colour (red vs blue/purple) officially represents ‘boundaries’ on our digi-Land Survey maps over here in NZ, but that’s another rabbit-hole entirely i s’pose
      ..sorta like Forrest Gets Mail #12, but not as weird 🙂

      • Can I call you CH, curious hobbit? I’m so glad you mentioned that about the Q&A from Mysterious Writings because there was a Surprise Words (or possibly Weekly Words?) where Forrest says to be “Mud Aware” and what makes mud but earth and water.
        I didn’t want to mention that before because I was afraid I’d seem like I was on a tangent :o)
        Here’s an example of the symbols for the four elements:

      • Happy (belated) Birthday Becky, and thanks for the interesting link – and yes, you can call me anything ya like, as long as you don’t call me “late home for dinner” 🙂

        personally, i suspect that symbology is currently a great tangent to bet on, esp given that toponymy doesn’t seem to be a relevant thing now (to whatever extent) and i’d easily bet SL’s last dollar that Forrest is well-versed in geographical symbols/map legends etc

        besides all that, symbols within a modern treasure map just feels sorta like “good ol’ classic piratey” stuff, imho

        re: mail#12 – i can’t help feeling that Kendra’s submission was either too outlandish to take seriously
        ..or too outlandish to ignore

        ..hmmmm (heavy sigh 🙁 )

        • I agree wholeheartedly………..then again there is that one little problem that f said it was below 10200 and above 5000′. That’s odd isn’t it? Why not say above 5200′ to match? WHY would he say 10200 and not 10000 or 11000? My head hurts…..go with the symbol thing.

          Best regards;

          1f Billy

          • Hi Billy.

            My take on this is the the “200” number is a hint to the actual elevation….to help us narrow down the location…..

            Could Indulgence be at…


            …..feet in elevation?

            If you think of this action, you not only can help narrow down a location, but may even help eliminate other target areas too.

            Good luck.

        • SB – i’m betting that “10200ft” is either a major hint, a major red-herring ..or both

          (fact! 🙂 )

          • I agree with both of you, SB & CH. It could go either way, but I’ve always been placing a good amount of importance on that number myself.

            No treasure chest yet for me, so maybe Forrest is chuckling as I repeatedly slip on his herring!

  37. Hi Bowmarc — for your translation of “As,” you’ve missed a usage that I believe is the simplest and most logical one for the sentence:

    “As = an adverb meaning that or while.”

    “As” can also mean “because” or “since”: “As the hour is late, I should be heading home.” Since I (Forrest) was alone when I hid the treasure, the secret of where it is hidden is known only to me.

  38. 1st Stanza – 1st person – I have gone . . . I can keep . . . and (I can) hint

    2nd Stanza – 2nd person (“you” understood) – (you) begin . . . and (you) take . . . (you) put in

    3rd Stanza – 3rd person – it’s no place . . . the end is drawing . . . there’ll be

    4th Stanza – 2nd person – IF you’ve been . . . and (you’ve) found . . . (you) look . . . (you) tarry . . . (you) take . . . and (you) go

    5th Stanza – 1st person – I must go and leave . . . I know . . . I’ve done it . . . I’m weak.

    6th Stanza –
    line 1 2nd person – (y’all) hear me and (y’all) listen
    line 2 3rd person – your effort will be
    line 3/4 conditional 2nd person/1st person – IF you are . . . (THEN) I give

    • 6th Stanza –
      line 1 2nd person – (y’all) hear me and (y’all) listen

      Why would the “2nd” person being “you” or a searcher? be saying hear me all and listen good?

      I follow the thought, but your “persons” seem to be playing twister.

      • Hey-O, Seek –

        If I say “Listen up!” or “Write this down!”, the subject of those imperative command sentences is “you”, since “you” are doing the listening or writing. So 2nd person it is.

        “You there – listen good!” FF’s not listening, he’s telling you to listen.

        “The unstated subject of a command sentence, where it is assumed the subject is the person(s) to whom the command is directed . . . the word “you” is usually not even in a command sentence, and so the subject is actually called ‘you-understood’, and is parsed like this: (you) + 2nd person verb form.”


  39. Stanza 2:

    Start doing it where comfortable, affectionate flowing water come to an abrupt stop
    And take it in a deep gorge with a river flowing flowing through it toward or in a lower position
    In no manner at or to great a distance in space or time but to great of a distance in space or time to move your legs at a speed slower than running
    Move to a particular position to a position within limits at a lower level than the place where Brown lives permanently, originates from, or is kept

    • Aaron you are correct. IMO How far can you go with it? Do you know the blaze? Best regards

      • Sherif, I have a thought on the blaze but I do not know it for sure. I do not think I will know it without finding the chest.

        • Aaron….. It gets only more complex and difficult. You found it if you search the area and find a can of pepper and some olive jars that are impossible to open.

  40. With all that is said about the words and punctuation, etc… I might consider as clutter that is all about the uses of English. When I believe the words in the poem are simple in meaning as used in every day communication. When we talk or write is to communicate, we use the words for simple communication and don’t think at all about different meanings a word may have. We may communicate at different levels based possibly on education and use different words to mean the same thing in different parts of our country.

    What I am trying to say is that I take the poem in that an average person can interpret to be just that. It is being simple so all can understand. Some poems don’t rhyme and others do. I’m not personally in to poems at all.

    I don’t believe the words in the poem to be cryptic in it’s nature at all as the above debates have done. How about this, use the words in every day communication and not in abstract.

    A little imagination would be needed, lets say to figure out wwwh and the blaze only in discovering what they are and keep the words simple, Blaze has simple meaning as a marker and not a fire.

    All IMO

    • Just word regarding “communication” since I teach this at a university. Communication is the co-creation of meaning. So, if you encode a thought (word) and transmit it to someone else, they decode the symbol (word) and hopefully the mean is the same on both ends. If not, communication didn’t happen.

      • Bob Miller,

        What you say is true, the context of the words while communicating helps greatly, misunderstanding is created when not understanding a word, or not relaying in terms of not being clear as to what one is trying to convey is miscommunication. There still is communication although not being understood.

        Your wording of, “If not, communication didn’t happen”, to me it means that speaking or writing didn’t exist at all. [no words have been said or written ever.]


        • Charlie,
          I was trying to be brief. Symbols in communication can mean spoken or written words, verbal or non-verbal, etc. Bottom line is both sender and receiver have to agree on the meaning.

      • I disagree when we are discussing art.
        If I draw a picture and show it to 10 people and only 5 understand my meaning am I only 50% communicative?


        • “The single biggest problem in communication is the illusion that it has taken place.”
          – George Bernard Shaw

      • Wow, Bob M, I thought I was one of the only on the communication encode/decode notions. That is why one word is key – it is the word that perhaps there may be two or more decodings. The key is to decode the correct version for that one word.

    • Charlie M.
      I can say that I agree to certain degree. Simplicity is often overstated…and frequently underestimated. Your statement about usages of words differing in others areas is an interesting point. I have noticed and encountered this all my life in my travels. Fenn’s own admission/s of looking words up and rebooting has got to have some bearing or why would he even make those comments?
      My read on this aspect is that the words used in the poem are basic every day…with a twist or two added in…to give extra confirmatory indicators along the way. I agree that some imagination( probably a lot) is necessary. The end result will most likely be very “subtle”…and probably a real noggin smacker.
      To be clear…I am not a letter(alphabet) substitution, first letter of each word code breaker of any sort in regards to Fenn’s mystery poem. I believe these things are clearly a type of code system…so out of bounds in my book.
      Also Charlie…I agree and Fenn backs this up by saying, a blaze is something that stands out. The blaze gnaws at me like a thousand little fleas. My last BOTG…I zigged and zagged back through my failed path several times from different directions taking it all in. Late in the day I almost fell over when I saw the perfect blaze. It was quite happenstance and from maybe 50 yards distance…perhaps a bit more. As I straight-lined directly towards it…it got better and better. I can say that at 10 ‘ it is as good as gets for a blaze. I spent the better part of 2 days looking in, around, over, under, you name it…but zip zero zilch. I even stood on it. I did not dig anywhere, and won’t. When I am done with that solve I will share a picture here at Dal’s. Every true redneck and outdoorsman/woman will get a good hoot out of it…

    • CharlieM

      What I like to call ‘fenn’s second challenge’ SB 124
      From this SB give an example of how Plain English is not so plain and easy, but can be cleverly words to mean something slightly different… ” I caught a nice fish and with it he took my photo. I mean he took my photo with it.”

      He took fenn’s picture with a fish
      He took fenn’s picture, and with it, he took fenn’s photo
      He took a photo of fenn’s with fenn and the fish.

      Sure we get what fenn means, yet it also seem like fenn friend is using the fish to take a photo?
      Plain simple English right? Everyday words and wording right?

      The Idea of word meanings and usages is not about – ‘the poem to be cryptic in it’s nature’ – and all about how we misuse or misunderstand, when we only think we know what the context of the writing is about, and not the full intent of the writer.

      A good example in the poem might be;
      “Look quickly down” [ comma ] a second thought, in addition to [comma] “but”; to mean in addition to as well “tarry scant with marvel gaze” [comma] adding the second thought in addition to “your quest to cease, Just take the chest and go in peace.

      We know how the stanza reads, but do we know how it was meant?
      Possibly ~ “Look quickly down, but tarry scant with marvel gaze, {all are action and time related words} your quest to cease, just take the chest and go in peaces

      Is this reading the understanding of the intent of the stanza through analyzing? [ the same idea as the example in SB 124 ] With the meaning of words like ‘but’ to mean; ‘in addition to’ -and not- ‘only, or no more than’ … The use of commas to place a thought about what and to finish – the quest – [also to separation of a thought -to finishing the quest – by doing something else.]
      messing with the poem?

      It seems to me the word “your quest to cease” can’t be a clue… however, it can be the ‘thought’ of the goal ahead.

      No words changed , no words moved, no replacement of words… just a simple everyday, plain English “understanding” of what is being stated… The possible intent of the author.

      • Cut and past is my worse enemy;
        He took fenn’s photo with a fish
        he took the fish, and with it, took fenn’s photo
        He took a photo of fenn and the fish

        Good god I hate computers and typing!!

      • Seeker.. your example of the photo and the fish was exactly what I was thinking. Fenn’s play on words…almost riddlesque(that’s a new word), is how some of this may go down(imo). I can see this method working pre-clue and post-clue as a lead in to next succession. That is plain English and fits well in poem form.
        The punctuation is another story….

        • Seeker,

          I don’t see the ” I caught a nice fish and with it he took my photo. I mean he took my photo with it.” that you do.

          I believe F was correcting himself because the words came out the wrong way other than he intended. It was a clarification and not clever words in this case.

          [Please don’t think that I’m saying he’s not clever with words.]

          All IMO

  41. I would tend to hope this does get it’s own page to discuss. To throw two cents in, I was wondering where the instructions are? I can see it is a way to define the words in the poem, but most, if not all believe there are instructions. Do you believe this to be true? If so, where are they? If not, how do we draw an “X” on a map?
    Also, didn’t f say, paraphrasing, that he doesn’t look words up any more? Granted, he probably has an extensive knowledge of words and their meanings, but in saying he doesn’t look words up, is that a hint on something we really do not need to do? Unless we are “instructed to”?
    I think it’s a good spark for discussion Bowmarc, and a good job. It can bring up some new ideas and revisit some old, but needs it’s own page, Dal, because the comments will be extensive. Critique or agree.
    For now, those are two I see. “So hear me all and listen good”, is more like a, listen to what I’m saying statement, with “and listen good” takes it into a different level. Not only the words, but what is in the words, the letters. The instructions are then very prominent.
    Maybe if the definition thing can gain some backing, it would be more in the way of defining which words can be looked at as instructions. And yes, I see the whole thing is about the 9 sentences, but it also involves word definitions, where did f hint or make the searcher feel he/she needs to do that?
    It is an attempt at solving the poem Bow, I like that, takes guessing out of the equation if you can get it to stick. Needs more minds and a little deeper thought, good job…

    • Charlie, if you try the X drawing theory then you have to see much of the poem being instructions. I do not want to give away to much of my thinking,
      and who knows it even amounts to anything honestly, but the line “The end is ever drawing nigh” is a good example.

      • Aron,

        I agree fully that the poem is a set of instructions, but, there are also descriptions of the area that helps clarify the instructions as to what to look for while having botg to fill in what a map can’t say all by its self. Then there are statements as your example = the end is near, as saying one is close to finishing the poem, or the end of the search or the end of the trail or road. It is vague which creates imagination as to the real term.


      • Aaron

        How do you think nigh is used in the poem?

        There are many interpretations of Nigh. What’s yours?


          • Sherif with one F –

            Here’s the thing sir. Whatever it is that either you or Aaron are going to say has been suggested before. You just won’t realize that until you print it here. Also, if you have something that no one has ever thought of before you will get lots of accolades. Folks here will think you are a genius.

            But, and it’s a big but, even if you have a new meaning for Nigh that the rest of us never ever considered, it doesn’t mean that you are correct.

            There is absolutely no reason not to post it. Like I told Zap one year ago today, just tell us your idea and I will show you where it was discussed previously.

            Waiting on your brilliant answer and Zaps explosive thread,

          • Dear Mr. Nutz—
            I already did… did you read how I caught the gnomes? Have Aaron confirm it.

            (They drink a lot of Scotch.)

        • Lug, For me nigh means nearly. I know some have said left and that actually works in a solve I am working on. Left though is not an easily found definition when googling nigh. The solution I am working on can explain most of the poem without over-complicating things.

          Is there an interpretation of nigh that you prefer?

          • Hi Aaron –

            The Sherif with one F thinks you use a third meaning for Nigh. One that he uses.

            I don’t want to get to nuts here, maybe he will.


          • KLT: it’s not clear where the 12-foot comment originated. In Scrapbook 78, Forrest makes it seem like he was responding to someone else claiming that a searcher had been within 12 feet:

            “Second, I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12′ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.”

          • The 12′ comment is years old, originate from a searcher claiming it from an e-mail… and the story picked up with other saying they believed they could be in that same club… hence the 12′ club was born.

            Almost the same style of thinking happened when actual comments from fenn about the first two clue, and the egotesticle claimed they are in the first two clue club. Then the 500′ foot club fan-wagon, 200′ club, and even within the 200′ club etc.

            This is not unlike comments actually stated by fenn inferring; Like… kids have an advantage… which ignited this popular quote ~a child can solve the poem~ because yet, another search claimed they were told by fenn; a child can go right to the chest [ which fenn correct this and the 12′ comments ]

            And until this date, no one can find that wording in that supposed quote, about a child could/capable of solving the poem.
            Yet, for years it’s bounced around as an actual fenn stated quote…

            *IF* someone has a verifiable, same worded actual quote, I would really like to see where and when it was said. [ this many times asked request has not had a response ].

            It’s a good thing to ask when not sure… but you will surely see/read other searcher claim it even well after fenn corrected… Some searchers [ 12′ club wannabe members ] as resent as this year claimed they know/knew where the chest was within 12′ … Don’t ask me why these supposed quotes get so out of hand… but they do.

          • Good to know. Thanks. I feel like I am in the right area but can’t nail down the last clues enough for an X marks the spot. 12′ might have helped.

            So if FF is a master at word play and there are multiple meanings of words then couldn’t there be infinite possibilities of how the poem could read? Wonder what it is that we are all missing?

            Sorry about the not going bald/pretty hair comment to you a few weeks back – just a bad way of letting you know that I was girl. New-to-blog insecurities mixed with the excitement of feeling close to having a general solve = disaster. I’ll take my humble pie a la mode.

          • KLT, I also feel like I am in the right area and need to nail down a final clue or two.

            There are indeed multiple definitions that lead to multiple ways the poem could be read. I have dabbled in a few different ways myself and I’m sure others have many more. Do we need to find what makes the most sense to us or will the solve be so perfect that it is incredibly obvious as the correct solve? That is the question IMO.

          • Aaron,
            You are so right, the solve has to fit perfectly, I just can’t seem to get there. I keep putting my thoughts into what the poem says, things I can relate to. Maybe we all do that? Wish so hard that we are the one to solve this riddle that we miss what he is saying.

    • * * * charlie wondered – “Also, didn’t f say, paraphrasing, that he doesn’t look words up any more?” * * *

      [[[[[[[Not exactly, charlie. I think you’re-***************++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ thinking of this –

      Q – “What dictionary . . . do you use for looking up words?” – wordsmith

      A – “I don’t use dictionaries anymore. I just type the word in Google for a faster response.” f

      • [[[[[[[***************++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++ = crazy new kitten jumping the keyboard. 😉

      • Everyone, I think the quote Charlie is looking for comes straight from TTOTC, pg. 14:

        “I never thought I had to believe everything I said and if I had to look up a word I just wouldn’t use it.”

        • “Any darn fool can make something complex; it takes a genius to make something simple.”
          ― Pete Seeger

          I know two things, I’m no genius and Forrest is a lot smarter than he lets on 🙂

    • Charlie – If you are speaking directly to me, there are no directions per se in my dissection of the 1st sentence. As I delve further into this matter, directions do/may/will evolve with the other 8 sentences.

      As to FF not looking up words any more, I believe that was an ATF stated after the poem was published. The tarry scant website may be able to isolate that quote for you and will have a date for when he said such, but again I am pretty sure it was after he published the poem.

      FF’s goal is to get people out into nature by challenging us to decipher his poem and prove that we have by finding the chest. To decipher it we first need to understand how it has been built (he felt he was an architect when he wrote the poem), so understanding the basic building blocks (the words, parts of speech, definitions, etc.) he used seems logical. Through trial and error, I think, the various combinations of word meanings will eventually give someone that eureka moment of a confident solve, their “X” on a map, their big picture…IMO

    • ****** charlie ” . . . was wondering where the instructions are? I can see it is a way to define the words in the poem, but most, if not all believe there are instructions. Do you believe this to be true? If so, where are they?” ******

      I’d say a search for instructions derives from the line with which ff introduces the poem in TTotC – “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if FOLLOWED PRECISELY, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.”

      “Clues” aren’t things we usually think of as being “followed precisely”, but “instructions” and/or “directions” are.

      And we can also follow a map, and ff has mentioned knowing “the geographical location of each clue”. He also wrote “The treasure will be found by someone who FOLLOWED THE CLUES to the location.”

      Early on, I cleverly (heh) tried to follow instructions precisely by putting the word “in” below the phrase “home of Brown” in the poem. I’ll also admit that I tried looking quickly down when I got to the word “blaze” in the poem. Stabs in the dark, both of those.

      You could experiment and see what you can make of following the imperative commands in the poem, the verbs that tell you to act, or do something (each one below followed by etc, of course):

      Begin it where . . .
      take it in . . .
      Put in below . . .
      Look quickly down . . .
      tarry scant . . .
      [**and maybe** gaze with marvel . . . ]
      take the chest and go . . .
      hear me and listen good . . .


      • Looks like I have a lot to respond to, but you get first dibs Jake. :). Ohhhh Jake…So close.
        My intent on saying that was to see if anyone would take the bait, and I only get another Charlie to nibble.
        I believe there are instructions and see others say they believe so also but never give examples. Aron will not divulge and that’s fine, but don’t say you see instructions if you wont back it up. Charlie M does not give any examples, and Jake….. early on examples need more looking into but since first try failed, you ditched. But Jake, your example is at least someone giving one, so applause. Here’s what I get Jake.
        When you look at each line, and follow the instructions like you started, the lines can be broken down. Example:
        Put in below the home of Brown. The thing is to make note of all possible ways to break down a line. home of Brown
        “h” in(this is an instruction) (let’s say following word definitions) in= used to indicate inclusion within a space. So, “h” in “o”= ho
        Continue on, no= instruction , “me” = what the instruction is directed at. In this case “me”.
        So, we have “ho” no “me” of Brown, or hoof Brown. So hear me all and listen good. Not only the words(listen), but listen good(in the words=letters). R= are, instruction, B are o wn.
        You now have the first stab in the dark relit, or, “hoof own”. Keeping with the stories of the chase, you could come away with ‘frog”.
        Now, you may not like it, I really don’t, but it’s following instructions and arriving at something else. In other words, like or not, we as searchers cannot 100& rule this out. It is possible. So this will lead to a question. How often in normal speech, poems blogs, sentences, whatever, can lines be broken down to arrive at something that follows with a story. So here’s the answer. Just randomly find lines and break them down. Okay, I looked everywhere, poems, blog posts, news articles, etc… even on this blog where the topic is the chase, to find 4 lines together, that have instructions that can be broken down to arrive at something that makes sense like above, is very difficult. I say this because it is very, very difficult. Try it, good luck. You may, somewhere find the 4 lines. Now, to find 8 lines in such a manner, lol, no way. won’t say impossible, but just isn’t easily found, I didn’t. So, now you’s be interested and wonder, what if all 24 lines in this poem follow this path and all can be broken down this way. That is beyond impossible, unless for one thing…..It was done by design.
        All 24 lines in this poem can be broken down in such a way, by following the instructions.
        Again, don’t like it if you will, but you, no one, can deny that the architecture of the poem is in such a way. You are only left with, it’s by design, and, if by design, then someone took the time to design it in such a way.
        Look, I don’t like it either, everyone and there mothers could say no way, but, no one can say it is wrong. It’s a way to solve the poem without guessing. Which leads to, how are you not guessing. Especially sense there could be multiple ways to solve each line. Some have only one interpretation, but how about the ones with 10 possible interpretations. Need to guess there. Not exactly, not when 9 of the ways do not fit. The poem solves itself. There is only one solve per line that you will see. And, it all flows.
        I wouldn’t say it if you couldn’t see for yourself.
        2nd stab. blaze. b l az e. Az is the instruction for “as”. BL as E. You might think that it’s nonsense, until you find that B=2, L=1, and E=3.
        Why is a butterfly a flutterby? Simple, obvious:
        B = FL, so when you find B=2, F=1, L=1. You start to get it.
        It’s not that you were wrong or were at a dead end, if you felt you were following instructions, keep with it and realize the many angles that can be seen. You get to a point where you say something most definitely is done by design, like or not, should spark attention. “So hear me all and listen good”. So ‘he” (ar=instruction) me.
        Some all and l is ten go od. Ask yourself, sum of A+L+L+L is ten, A=1,L=3, or A=4, L=2, or A=7, L=1. How did this line in the poem understand itself as to know to tell us that we must “go” od? That to make the statement true, there was 2 odd value answers and 1 even value answer? The purposely used word of “good” now has meaning, drop A+4, L=2.
        Then again, if you are the kind that says, no way there are letter values, then don’t believe what’s right in front of your face. The chest is not underwater but I’m sure some still think it is. F said that he believes that the blaze is still there, but I’m sure people believe there are more than one blaze. All and l is ten but I’m sure there are no letter values. Don’t be surprised if you try that g az e equals g=3, Or no paddle up your creek turns out to be No “p” add le up. And that the end I sever drawing nig/h,leads to ht’ll be No ‘p” add le up your creek. And that you know L=1, E=3, that ht’ll turn out to equal 4.Especially if h and t equal 2, then maybe two “t” will be “for’ your creek. Like latitude, equaling 4, bet longitude ends up equaling 5.Lol, I don’t like really either, but end result is awesome. Relight the fires Jake, if anything, it wouldn’t hurt, and I only say because you can find a lot of answers. Oh, Marvel gaze is a reference to Andrew Marvell. He was born in 1621, which is what his name ends up equaling:). Remember one “l’ is used, mirror- Marvel Andrew=16 21.Just like :Sloane Eric = 19 10. Might want to involve Blex on that one, “age wise” anyway, you may just find what the “blaze” looks like.
        Aron, those are instructions, divulging a lot, and saying nothing. If you feel that in any way that you may ‘divulge” too much, then I think you have a lot of questions to ask yourself. Just saying, a small part of a solve is not going to get anyone within 12’ of the spot. My warm waters halt is Anaconda Montana, I would say, that with my solve, giving away the starting place is huge, given what f’s ATF comments regarding the first clue is. So, now that you know, go find the chest. Get what I’m saying.
        I hope nobody tries this line of thinking as a solve, or at least attempts to understand it. If you think it’s foolish, you should see my blaze. Laughable, and 100% perfect. I’ll say again, it fooled me at first, and Dal also. To be fooled after being in this chase for so long, Dal 6 months before me, if it holds water, that’s really funny Forrest. If right, you know Forrest that nobody would expect that. Who would do that? I’d be laughing back at the car too. Just know half of your “marvel gaze” is laying in the forest( I told her it was to tall for a walking stick). Lol, Skippy. FF, 6th letter of alphabet, 66, age in ’97, “Upon Appleton House”, …. up to you Jake. (in a whisper, Andrew Marvell lived to age 57, with Eric Sloane living to 80, would be weird if the letter values you found have primary and secondary values of 80 and 57. Might be a hint to a ‘bell’) Wonder if “Bighorn” could help with that? Now Aron, that is a freaking load of information. You’ll find me and Dr. Eddy dancing with the stars. I’m a dancin’ machine.

        • Haven’t forgot about you Bow, I like the write up, will comment on other topic page. Still say, good job, I do like some points. I’ll try not to agree with Seeker too much, he makes it difficult though. Luckily, he spells like a numbers guy…His spell check is even worse. But we get what he’s saying, that, I guess is the impotant part. Well, you know what I mean…

          • LOL Charlie,
            Many comments I read sound too complicated as well… I like to think some believe my ideas seem difficult because I don’t want to leave out an escape route… you never know when one road gets block or turns into a dead end.
            But I’ always reminded of;
            “Some searchers overrate the **complexity of the search** By knowing, well basically, technical junk and out of the box research…

            But it’s true, I’ll never be hired for my typing skill… just my looks. You should see me in a fashionable yellow holiday dress, which emphasis my shapely four legs and five dazzling eyes, not to mention a large ornament.

          • Charlie,

            I believe there are instructions that I bit on but didn’t say why. So here are what I believe are instructions in helping to create the map:

            Begin it
            And take it down
            Not too far
            Look quickly down
            Put in below

            I used those instructions as literal, The poem is telling you what to do. It’s simple and uncomplicated.

            All IMO

          • WHOOO-WEEE, Seeker, That was you!!!??? It was that orma,,orna…onar…orn….ormenand……Shoot, WWHHHOOO-WEEE.

        • Charlie, that is a ton of dancing that you are doing.

          So tell me how would you prefer that I “back it up”? I suppose I could do this by giving you my entire general solve. I could give more examples of what I think are instructions but that doesn’t really back anything up either.

          I’ll try and consider other ways that I could back it up without giving away a solve but I’m not sure if there is.

          Enjoy your dance!

          • Lol, yeah, was a long blah, blah post. Sorry all. Excuse…hmmm. Have a friend in the hospital, no sleep, and sshhoooott, have you saw dat Seeking dude, WWHHHOOO-WWWEEEE. Made me smile from one side of my tooff to da udder side of my tooff.

  42. Forrest said your gonna love the first 2 things in the box . I have only heard him say box that one time he always says chest just a thought but he was also a sculptor I believe .I guess it’s time to kick rocks in other words a false rock . The first 2 things would be the chest being1 and contents the second

    • Didn’t Forrest tell us that the finder wouldn’t have to “disturb”
      anything? If the TC is hidden inside a “false rock”, it seems
      that if the “false rock” is covering the TC, then the “false rock” would be “disturbed” by being lifted/moved . . .

      . . . or maybe something that is not living can’t be “disturbed”
      by anything, because unliving implies unfeeling.

      I remember reading something about FF’s “church”
      being some “natural” things in the wilderness . . . such
      as mountains, rivers, etc. Maybe he has more “pet”
      rocks than almost anybody else. Maybe a mound of

  43. Wow and I do mean wow. Lots of great thinkers on this thread. Took me awhile to get through it. Many are heading in a good direction from what I can tell. (Good One) Well tomorrow is another day that will pass. Everyone keep up the good work..

  44. Just got back from my latest search. I saw the usual herds of deer and a Lot of turkeys. One “rafter” had about 12 birds! I started my hike early and it was very dark with no moon. The stars looked close enough to touch and I saw several “Orionid” meteors in the night sky. I also had an interesting interaction with a skunk. I saw him waddling up the trail ahead of me and when I was about 12 feet from him he stopped and looked back at me so I slowly removed my camera from my pocket. Before I could snap a pic he started running toward me! I quickly shuffled backwards and almost tripped before he finally broke his “attack” and scurried off. No chest but no disappointment. These trips are always an adventure.


        • And he said that on April 27th, 2017.

          If you are hearing something different Zap, please let us know.


          • Loco –

            There are people right now, on this blog, friends of ours, who believe West Yellowstone is involved. We can’t go a week without someone bringing up brown gravy.

            Based on Fenn’s email statement to the interviewer can we say Forrest hasn’t been back to West Yellowstone since 1950?

            I am curious to know what you are suggesting.


          • Lugnutz ~”…can we say Forrest hasn’t been back to West Yellowstone since 1950?”

            This is an iffy one, but fenn did tell a story about the grandkids at the bathing hole [ obviously born after 1950 ] I bring it up for informational checking… -I think,- in the story, SB, wherever, there is mention of W.YS. on that trip… if that helps.

            Personally, it doesn’t make sense to me why I would try and find out where fenn was or wasn’t in the past 60- 70 years… doesn’t seem to narrow down much of anything really.

          • Seeker

            It absolutely matters!

            If Forrest hasn’t been back to the Firehole in 50 years we should take him. We should jump in and let them arrest us with an 80 years old man.

            He literally predates the law prohibiting swimming in the middle of nowhere.

            If any of the ladies want to meet us, I suppose we could swim with some clothing on like the English.


        • Last time up there in the summer cabin they stayed in back in the 30s and 40s, not last time up in Yellowstone or West Yellowstone. I can see how someone who didn’t know Forrest might ~think~ he meant he hadn’t been in West Yellowstone or the Park, but that’s just a case of (an admitedly understandable) misunderstanding of the antecedent of “up there.”

          • Did you listen to it?
            If you did, you are hearing what you want to hear.
            It’s clear and I will provide transcipt.

            “Well that’s after my time.”
            “I spent 19 of my first 20 summers in 3 months in Yellowstone or West Yellowstone”
            “The last time I was up there was 1950”

            I don’t understand what you say he is referring to when the tape seems like plain english Zap.


          • It seems unlikely Forrest would eliminate one of the most popular search areas from consideration so easily. I would like to see a clarification from Forrest on his comment. I believe there is record of Forrest visiting Bozeman, MT and the Wind River Indian Reservation since 1950. It seems like Forrest either misspoke or accidentally narrowed the search area. I’m surprised this interview hasn’t been discussed more.

          • Lugnutz, Zap,
            LOL see how this ‘plain English’ is not so plain… here ya are, two guys [ and others that can’t even seem to agree on plain English. ]

            Ok how about this to rage the waters…
            Fenn said, in regard to the “place” of discussion, The last time he was “up there” in 1950 seems to relate to { “that was after my time” }

            The other part; “I spent 19 of my first 20 summers in 3 months in Yellowstone or West Yellowstone” ~ is a region [ and seems to be a second thought running through fenn’s mind ], and not so much “up there” ~as to~ the ‘place’ the two men were ‘discussing’… a more specific place, than YS and WS.

            Is that Nitpickin? or plain English?
            Then again,
            if “we” are going to be honest with ourselves, there was a lot of ums and errs and thoughts going on as fenn was speaking. Could it be a slip of the tongue and the cats out of the bag, or simply a roll of the tongue while recalling, thinking, reminiscing…

          • Seeker –

            What should we value more highly? When Fenn has all day or a week to craft a response and send it to Jenny/Dal? Or when he has to answer in a conversation.

            I value the interviews more. In the first portion of that podcast/interview they weren’t talking about the treasure and Fenn had his guard down. Pod dude should have called Fenn and asked the followup to see the immediate reaction.

            Anyway, I believe Fenn. He doesn’t lie or mislead. That’s my opinion. He does make mistakes though. So the thing to think about is whether he made a mistake when he said not in 50 years or he crafted a story with purpose when he wrote “River Bathing is Best”.


          • Lug — the prior context of the conversation matters. They were talking about cabins in the West Yellowstone area. If you extract a single sentence from the transcript, you lose the thread of the conversation.

            But really, this is making a mountain out of a molehill, and I think we should give anyone talking in an interview without a teleprompter a little bit of leeway. The man is not under oath to speak perfectly 100% of the time. To borrow a phrase from Yoda, “Talk as well you should when 86 years of age you reach.” Far better to pay attention to what he has written. For instance:

            “Several years ago, with my daughter Kelly’s family, my wife and I drove to the little road (it’s paved now) and walked to the river. I tried to get my granddaughters to swim where I had spent so many peaceful hours. The idea didn’t interest them much. That spot, which was so important to me sixty-six years ago, is mostly overlooked now by the occasional passerby. My memories of those experiences are so dear to me that I hope in time all of my grandchildren will follow my footprints to that special place.”

          • Zap –

            I disagree. The off the cuff comments in interviews are the most honest. Sure, he makes mistakes and corrects later.

            As I have just mentioned in a comment to the Seeker Fenn may have crafted the Firehole story with purpose. he may have been hinting at something like you often think he does.

            You are more inclined to believe what he write when he has unlimited time. I am more inclined to believe there is truth in what he speaks without preparations.

            On another note I just read an old Weekly at jenny’s and commented there. Did you read the one about the girl who had parrots in her earnings? Same post as bring the tobacco with the sauerkraut etc.


          • Lugnutz,
            I’d rather read a planned response. While it might be difficult to understand what he actually means at times… It more than likely to be a correct response, than an off the cuff response with a mistake in it and we the searchers blow it out of proportion…and more than likely Fenn will let it ride, unless he feels it would directly interfere with and actual clue.
            My example, not a dam dam.

          • Lug: if you want to take Forrest’s spoken word as gospel over what he has written, that’s your choice. I guess that means you know the treasure is buried, since Forrest did say that once clear as day. But ask yourself how many hours of recorded interviews do we have of Forrest? And how many mistakes would ~you~ make speaking publicly in all that time? If you think the Firehole bathing story is an utter fabrication and that he never went there with his granddaughters, then why would you believe anything Forrest has written, or that he ever hid a chest of gold?

            Do I think the chest is hidden in Yellowstone or West Yellowstone? No. But there is nothing he has written that eliminates it as far as I’m concerned.

          • Zap –

            I think you are the perfect person to help me with something.
            I cannot remember why I put a star on the map for Sula National Forrest. Does it ring a bell with you?


          • Opinions are just that…opinions. Personally, I would graciously accept ALL Fenn statements. That is without exception. Impromptu vs. rehearsed matters not to me. A little of something… so to speak.
            SB, videos, interviews you name it…I’ll take it. Thanks Fenn.

          • Wow – I guess I didn’t listen to this one before. It does seem ff eliminated Yellowstone altogether based on his comments.

            There could be a few searchers who have to rethink things for next year based on that.


      • Oz10 –

        Couple of possibilities.

        He doesn’t hear well and was just covering up something he couldn’t quite make out.

        Or maybe it’s all made up. He didn’t spend summers in Yellowstone and the pictures aren’t of Fenn and his family. The entire thing is one big story written to enhance the chase.

        You know, one of those two things probably.


  45. Maybe I was dreaming , didn’t f say once he took his family up there and tried to get his granddaughters to take a dip where he used to bathe? Maybe he had any grandchildren in 1950.

    You know, never mind that. I think I would stick to your guns with the 1950 thing.

  46. As far as Fenn’s written statements versus his verbal statements, I can see some validity to both side of the argument for relying more on one over the other. I personally place more confidence in the written statements because he has more time to think about, and correct if necessary, statements in writing. That’s not to say that I necessarily don’t believe his verbal statements. But, if a verbal statement seems to contradict a written statement, I will go with the written statement.

    • I think people should cut Fenn some slack on his minor errors. You all should hope your as sharp as him when you reach his age.
      My mom is in her eighties and hasn’t called me by my correct first name in years!


      • I always cut Fenn slack.
        Others hear the error (zap) and see a hint. Well, only when it suits them sometimes a mistake sometimes a hint. Also they tell us how we should interpret that mistake.


        • wait, are you saying he is not the official and appointed fenn whisperer that goes around telling everyone whats right and whats not??? bummer…

          • If Mr. Fenn were to post a solution to the poem under a nom de plume here, it would be hilarious to watch as his solution is attacked and shredded by other folks on the blog. If only….
            Meanwhile, I’m back to seeing things in Wyoming that are tantalizing…warm springs creeks (yes, plural) Brown’s creek, Brown Mtn., Brown’s Campground, Sage this and that, Wood River, treasure box…oh wait the last part is still pending.
            Anyone else’s spouse think they are crazy?
            Happy trails…..

  47. Chasers –

    Speaking of that interview, Fenn mentions the word brown again. He said brown trout for like the 50th time.

    I’m curious to know if any of you have heard him use the word Brown when referring to something other than the HoB or trout?


      • Right, and are there 2 brown hats, both Stetson?
        Because he says he has George’s bat but he also says he paid for his hat and added manure.

        Anyway, he talks about Browns meaning trout often.

        I am not a fan of HoB means trout, but…

        • Lugnutz
          History of the typewriter Underwood, FF.
          Maybe this will help.
          When I was middle-aged, I forgave myself for not being named a better actor and began to write prose, which resulted in the creation of some books. But in the sixties it got tiring and my life needed different mental textures to continue its existence. So I decided to become a poet. This was a regrettable decision because I started by starting each line with a capital letter and continuing to write prose. This made me more versatile, but less productive. My world was stagnant as a myriad of new electrical technologies exploded around me.
          Then a friend gave me a computer. But it did not make the clicking noises when I typed in the way my old Underwood typewriter did. This is one of the things I miss, in a stubborn way. Perhaps the constant pecking cadence of the typewriter gave me a sense of accomplishment that is now lacking in my life.

          • Lugnutz
            there is a t-rex dinosaur bone hunter with a brown name where he discovered some of the biggest bones of this animal in 1902 if it was not wrong it was in montana or wyoming he also had a storage train wagon, if this helps, I’m happy.

        • Also…last I checked…there are a ton of references in regards to Fenn mentioning “brown” at Tarry Scant site if one cares.

    • Hi Lug – There are more than a dozen times Forrest uses the word brown in his books, SB’s, and in answers to q’s on Jenny’s site.

    • Lug – I find this interesting. Page 8, TFTW – picture captioned “Dad with a trophy brown trout he caught”… brown (correctly) not capitalized. Elsewhere on the blog, I think 2 different people recently stated that Fenn told them there are no “trout” in Grayling Creek. Page 39 in TFTW, Lucca is catching “Loch Leven” fish in Grayling Creek with her hand tied flies. Notice Loch Leven is capitalized; Loch Leven is a subspecies of brown trout, capitalized because the fish is named after a place I suppose? Loch Leven could be a backhanded reference to brown trout if you follow my drift. Kinda confusing. He also refers to a “cute brunette’ who staked claim to a corner spot page 57 TFTW. I always wondered if that was Peggy…

  48. FYI
    Most National Parks out west will be jacking up the park entrance fee’s for 2018, Its currently $30 a week for Yellowstone, they are going to push it $70, over double what it is now, and that does not sit well with me, these parks are for the People and we pay taxes, Just another way for the Government to stick it to us.

    • The National Parks have been facing ever-increasing attendance rates, while at the same time having to cut staff and postpone maintenance projects due to federal budget cuts. I don’t see any other way that the NPS can stay afloat financially, short of just allowing the park infrastructure to deteriorate further. It’s pretty straightforward pragmatism on their part.

      • I agree with you, HJ, but Blex has it right. In 2016, the National Park Service set a record for recreation visits for the third year in a row – nearly 331 million recreation visits, breaking 2015’s record by 23.7 million visits.

        Overwhelmed Parks like Zion will likely go to a reservation system very soon. And that’s not even a budget issue. There’s only so much real estate in Zion, but so far there’s no cap in sight on the number of folks ‘n cars we’re turning out.

        It is a shame, but also a genuine dilemma. 30 years ago, in my backpacking heyday, NatParks were resorts for the working guy. Now, as I’m finally on the verge of my $80 Golden Oldie lifetime pass, there’s a rapidly diminishing number of parks that I still care to get away to, or that I can even call a getaway in any meaningful sense.

        Still a decent amount of choice terrain outside the Park system out here that hasn’t been bought up for golf courses, fortunately. But it’s going faster than we think.


        • JAKe,

          Most of the parks are being overwhelmed and lots of damage is being done in various ways, too many to mention.

          The money is I believe to restore lot of things that have been damaged and restoring buildings and trails, trash, dog poop, vandalism, campgrounds etc, I could go on and on.

          The other part of it may be an effort to reduce the number of visitors to help elevate more damage.

          To reduce the continual out of pocket money and not to have to pay for day, a long week visits you can save a ton of money by getting the year long pass to any national park. That is if you visit parks quite often.

          But I don’t go to the parks as they are always over crowded. Public lands work for me.

          All IMO

      • My step dad (now gone) has a lifetime pass to all national parks that I inherited, along with his license and passport. Both expired but he was not allowed to renew due to Alzheimer’s.

        Instead of “dude dressed like a lady” I guess I need to be the “lady dressed like my stepdad dude” so I can enjoy those lands without breaking my bank. 70$ folks for one day pass during peak season. That’s the price of admission to American parks.

        • I wonder if those that would benefit the most from a day in nature can afford that? Not likely. Nature and solitude is becoming a luxury for the wealthy.

          Sorry. Bad day. Just venting I suppose.

        • Not that I like it, but just for accuracy –
          At this point, it’s still just a proposed rate hike, and the proposed rate hike only applies to about a half-dozen of the most popular Nat’l Parks.

          And (at least currently) those vehicle passes are usually good for 3-5 days.

          • And only in Summer months and this is is literally the least and last expense I consider. My flight, car, gas, hotel and sneakers cost more than 70 bucks. Heck, my lunch cost 70 bucks if I am with 3 people.

            To me 70 bucks is a bargain.

            Some cannot afford it and there should be a way to consider this.

            Of course, it has nothing to do with the chase IMO.

    • Admission to Disney land is almost a 100$ ahead for one day, off season. Yep, it’s the people’s park but the cost of everything might be because the people’s politicians don’t give a rats tail. Thing is {using some of JAKe’s numbers} with a 10 mil. jump in a short time… ya have to ask why. Is it because other private place charge 100 plus for just a day admission, and folks go to the park because it still cheap for the family?
      or in reality it’s much safer to travel to a super volcanic location, than traveling abroad these resent years?

      LOL in 1953 park admission for a car and trailer 3 bucks for 15 day. Minimum wage about .75 cents or about 6 to 7$ today… meaning someone had to work [@ .75] 4 hours to pay for entry.
      Min wage today 7.25$ ~ about 9-10 hours for a 70 entry [ but for less stay time ]… but ask yourself… what changes were done over those years as well. More employees, and healthcare for them, more places to stay or eat, more camping ‘sites’ { electric, showers, water hookups, RV locations, etc. }
      The again, min. wage for 2018 [ bill 312 33 ] is expected to wiggle up to over 10$ an hour… Do ya think the park services don’t know about that possibility?

      Welcome to the rat race…

      • One of the things I found interesting upon my visit to Yellowstone was the number of people that come to work there in the summer. People come from all over the country and abroad just to work the summer so they must be getting paid well enough for it. My fishing guide there lives in Alabama the rest of the year.

        • When I worked there I was paid $1.65 an hour and they withdrew .90 an hour for room and board. After taxes I had just enough left over every 2 weeks to get an education in poker at the local Montana pub.

          • Early 70’s? Strawshadow. ha! You still seem very agile hurdling that fence.
            What was it like then compared to today? YS, not the fence.

  49. One more thing on the Rainbow thought…. Once about three months ago while my Deputy and I were riding out on patrol late one night, we came across three short men taking a shower under a waterfall. These were not ordinary men at all. At first I thought they might be professional baseball players since they had long hair and unkempt beards.

    My deputy and I dismounted and snuck up closer to we could make out what they were saying. At that point I thought they might be politicians since I couldn’t understand anything they were saying. The Deputy and I wanted to question them to ask they what they were doing so far out there, so we gathered up their clothes and waited till they were done.

    When they came out, they dried out and started looking for their clothes. There was some arguing between them as to where exactly they left them. But when they got close to the bushes, where the Deputy and I were hiding, we jumped them.

    They wouldn’t give us any information, their names or anything. They had no identification whatsoever. Not getting any answers, we arrested them and took them to our headquarters. We figured they were illegal aliens and were about to turn them over to ICE. when one of them blurted they were gnomes.

    Then the other two started swearing and sputtering something awful. From their accent we deducted they might be Irish. And indeed they were.. There is a lot more…too much to tell here. However did you know gnomes in Ireland are known as Leprechauns?

    We are still interrogating them and slowly by golly we learn more each day…. I am going loco… the boys replay this youtube video constantly… any thoughts? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=juLAbt7E4A4

      • Nutz and Aaron…

        Yes there is a third, very important definition of nigh. I was mistaken, I thought Aaron you knew. Does anyone know how to contact the king of the leprechauns in Ireland? He would know. IMO

        • Hi Aaron –

          For the love of St Peter, this guy is never going to say what he means. He is talking about nigh as a term for bath. We discussed this in 2013 and maybe earlier because one of the very first things Fenn blogged about was bathing in the Firehole River.

          Anywho, doesn’t matter, no one here cares what anyone else is searching. They only care about there own search. They jam new pegs into old holes and nothing advances.

          Graciella Gallatin Goodnight

          • Ah, so the end is drawing a bath. Interesting. I wasn’t around the chase in 2013 so this one is new to me. I wonder how many spots could be good bathing spots other than the Firehole and Boiling River. Perhaps another bathing spot nobody knows about? I was honestly just thinking about this not long before reading your post.

            You are right. Unless you can really sell someone on your spot most do not care where others are searching. Perhaps that is why most work alone instead of group up.

  50. Just FWIW, I finally got the chance to do some additional research on the “probably a bush” picture I linked to a few weeks ago. I went into GE and looked back in time to see how long the “bush” was there. It was there in 2013 for sure. It didn’t appear to be there in 2009, but the image was too blurry to say for sure – you couldn’t really tell anything beyond the shape of the underlying rock. So… inconclusive.

    I also zoomed in and used the GE measuring tool to try and get a better idea of the size of the “bush”. I got a perimeter (for square outline) of ~44 inches, which is intriguing given the potential for some expansion of the dark area due to the shadow effect. So… also inconclusive.

  51. Got those who are discussing instructions and directions, how are you differentiating between the two? Are directions not instructions?

    • I don’t think anybody’s relied much in the discussion on differentiating the two. I can give you directions to the airport, and/or instructions for how to get there.

      In a different discussion, you could slice and dice if you wanted, as in go south on the highway then east toward Omaha versus you can get a Green Rides shuttle at the convention center.

      We should wait for shorter days and more snow on the ground before having the debate about whether clues provide instructions or directions.


  52. This whole treasure thing is confusing and not always straight forward…….

    Take the following example–
    Three guys go to the bar for a couple of beers. When they get ready to leave…they each give the barmaid a $10 bill ($30 total) The bar tab is exactly $25 and the bartender gives the barmaid five ones in change to return.

    The barmaid noting it is cheapskate Billy and his friends who are unlikely to tip her keeps $2 for herself. She gives three $1 dollar bills back to Billy and his buddies.

    Now Billy and his buddies each paid $10 and got a dollar back…so 3 times $9 equals $27. The waitress has $2 and that makes $29


    Sherif Billy is going to arrest someone for thievery

    I’m confused………

    • Very, very old Accounting-101 T Account lesson.

      Billy Bud1 Bud2 Bar Maid
      _____ _____ _____ _____ _____
      10| 10| 10| |30 |
      | | | 5| |5
      |1 | 1 | 1 | 3|

      1. DR the boys 30 & CR the Bar 30
      2. DR the bartender 5 & CR the Maid 5
      3. CR Billy and each bud 1 (3 total) & DR the Maid 3

      Results: Billy and boys DR 9 each (27 total), Bar CR 25 & Maid CR 2.
      Total DR 27 = Total CR 27 and GL is balanced.

      Really very old.

      • My T Accounts didn’t post well (ugh) – use your imagination to align them to right. But my math description is sound.

    • Sherif Billy
      Plus if the bar bill is $ 25, and they were in 3 people plus $ 2 of the hangman would be TOTAL $ 81, of $ 27 each, then only one paid and the others not, then $ 54 missing

    • nice puzzle Sherif Billy – but it’s obvious that the missing dollar is directly attributed to “inflation” 🙂

      ( ..Billy should be thankful he doesn’t live in Zimbabwe 🙁 )

    • Sherif…I can see where you may be confused. You should just be content being the sherif…and leave the math alone.
      The “other dollar” never existed.

      • Ha! Ken.
        Some just don’t get. “The mystery of the lost dollar”
        This isn’t a math problem as much word problem…. “they each give the barmaid a $10 bill ($30 total)”
        If all the information is known, idea [to do the math correctly]… they didn’t actual “give” the barmaid 30$ for the bar ‘tap’ and ‘tip.’

        Which bring me to a thought on how easy it is [self included ] to overlook the obvious…
        “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

        I read this or interpret as, i’m sure many did as well; to say; certainty of the path beforehand, line of “thinking”
        Lets have another peek at the wording…
        The location, refers to what? [chest?].
        A path to be direct, refers to what? [ not stumbled upon ? ].
        Beforehand, refer to what? [ location ? ].

        Fenn said he followed the clues.. I think he may have had to. Not a one way in and out thought… a monkey could do that. But the only way “in there”

        If this line of thought could be correct, are we looking at a “location” itself that is hidden, idea?
        Let me use Dal’s example of a maze puzzle to explain… In that theory, it seems it’s a hit and miss, process of eliminations to which door to walk through, to find the direct path.

        Reading that warning, and keeping in mind a few ATF’s ~ will not be stumbled upon, need to nail down the first clue, fenn followed the clues, there are no short cuts, the destination is small but the location is huge… huge in this case might be along the line of High Regards and Respect, over size. Which could refer to huge as small. [ ken, that is why I asked Both? to your earlier posting of huge ]
        But I think the important thing to remember is “in there” alone.

        In theory… the clues, even though married [singular, as to couple] on a map… the *direct path is unknown and the – *only way “in there” – that will not be stumbled upon.
        Now the question is, if Little Indy *could understand the first two clues from the poem and a RM’s map. I think the poem now falls to planning and observation for that *only way “in there”

        See Goofy, I might be a bit slow, but I do listen to suggestions I read on the blog ..lol, But I’m handicap with the use of only one working brain cell. Now all I need is to understand what wwwh refers to… does anyone have Little Indy’s e-mail?

        • Yes Seeker
          “The Lost Dollar” idea presented by Sherif Billy is a classic. This could create a plethora of threads that would boggle the mind…but the points would be faulty from the start. Good stuff though! I will say that this does bring to light the fact(IMO) that most, if not the majority of thinking in relation to this Chase is primarily incorrect right out of the gate. This is supported by the # of searches to date(speculated in the hundreds of thousands) and Fenn’s ATF in terms of how far folks have progressed. Bottom line…the treasure is still incognito.
          I do recall not responding to your “Both” as I did not want to answer at the time. No reason. I follow your thinking up to this point…and agree that Fenn DID follow the clues to hide the chest. I can say that I also agree that it is the only feasible way to have done so. Yes, Both, is my answer. I must be(haha) in the “yes man” mode today because my theory focuses on “in there” as the lead in to nailing down the first clue….so, I agree there too. I call it “my back door theory”, and I would not discard the map/s after nailing down the first clue. The more detailed map will pave the way(I believe).
          I thought I’d better let you know that Little “I” is only “hypothetical”…before you send any embarrassing emails to her!
          Where’s the one place Fenn could disappear to?

          • Ha! little “I” was a fluke… the answer was more direct… of course, imo… “can not get closer” vs. not get pass…

          • LOL, so I don’t ‘sound’ like a cryptic knowitall… I’ll explain with examples of thought.
            With “just” the poem and a map, a searcher can not get closer, without being close, on site.
            Those; general solve vs. a solve, or deciphered at home? yes, in theory, but not in practice, direct path vs. certainty of the location…

            Sure, sure others might have had these thoughts long before… I just needed more info. in the attempt to make it as plausible as possible, before jumping on a hunch.

    • Look at it as if one person paid $25 for the tab and gave the waitress a $2 tip and he got back $3. 25+2+3=30.

      The way that this puzzle is presented makes it a faulty premise. The bill is actually $25 and they got back $3 and the waitress kept $2. 25+3+2=30. The $27 thing is presuming that the bar bill is $24 instead of $25. Here are the facts on that: bar bill is $24+$3 returned+$2 for the tip. 24+3+2= 29. The difference is that it tries to fool you into thinking that the bar bill is still $25. There is the DOLLAR.

  53. $30.00—-she keeps $2.00 = $28.00. $3.00—$1.00 to each person = $25.00. There is no money missing.

      • $25 was the bill. They paid $30 and got $1 back each which makes $3. She kept $2 and $2 + $3 = $5. $30 – $25 = $5.

        one f Billy, you are making a mistake by multiplying 9 x 3.

        • Using this example maybe you can understand the difficulty of solving the poem.

          f made the poem backwards from the end to the beginning. We are trying to solve the poem from the beginning to the end.

          Isn’t there a similarity in how you account for the money in this example? If you work it forward, you’re short a dollar. If you work it backward…it makes sense..

          Best regards;
          1f Billy

          • I am thinking on having the “boys” make a photo collection of pictures the Deputy and I took of our 30 some odd trips to round up indulgence. I don’t know if it would be of any interest to you. None of us a very tech savy, so unless I think some would like to see them….I won’t bother.

            Best regards;

    • 10 x 3 = 30 paid out – 3 returned = 27- 2 for the tip = 25 – 25 bar tab zeros out.
      9×3 paid = 27 – 2 tip = 25 bar tab 25 zeros out. each guys only paid out 27 dollers.
      10 x 3 = 30 – 3 returned =27 – 2 for tip = 25 – 25 zeros out.

      The Math is not wrong your understanding where the money actually came from and went to is wrong. The guys only “paid out” 27 -2 tip -25 bar tab…. $ not 30.

      The real question is, what color was the bear?

  54. All I was trying to do, was to show……some things are not as they seem

    Best regards to all but old Utah

    Thin skinned 1 f Sherif Billy

    • Ha! Sherif Billy,
      I go through the same every time stop at some fast food joint…
      They can’t make correct change unless the little monitor tells them. And they have the nerve to put out a tip jar.
      I like to watch their faces when the bill comes to 5.99, and I hand then a 10 and a penny… just for fun.

  55. Question: How many cows make a herd? How many geese make a gaggle? How many lions make a pride?

    Answer: We’re tempted to say two, but then it would be a small herd and a “giggle” instead of a gaggle! Actually, if you’re speaking of domestic cattle and geese, the only limit we can think of is the farmer’s ambitions.

    Found this somewhere on the internet.

    • As for the size of a pride, we think it depends on the great good nature of the dominant male (although 30 is considered a crowd). While on the subject, there are lots of little-known collectives, such as these bird groupings: a “chatter” of budgerigars, a “twittering” of magpies, a “murmuration” of starlings, and an “exaltation” of larks.

  56. Mr. FallingRock- What do you do? I see your advertisements all over the Rocky Mountains when I’m driving…….

  57. Could something serious be crumbling?

    Zaphod’s posting of 10/24 at 2:34 PM looks pretty strange to me.

    I’ve been suggesting to various (?) posters that they relax, but my
    advice is apparently not worth much to him . . . I mean them.

    Stress isn’t always good. It’s been known to contribute to the growth
    of cancer. I’m serious, and don’t want ANYBODY to suffer from cancer.

    • I meant 2:24 PM, not 2:34 PM. The posting is up above.

      I realize that we should accept a person’s “right” to make
      mistakes. But a (written, posted) message should be
      proofread before being sent. Especially of someone’s
      reputation or legacy significantly depends on this kind of

    • Tighterfocus: can you be more specific? I see nothing erroneous in the post of mine you have referred to, but I welcome a correction if you found something in error.

    • Yeh, with national healthcare too big for small government, we’ll have to start throwing raffles again for cancer victims.

      • Sherif Billy and Deputy Katie know something about healthcare. Don’t believe the media and politicians. You show up at the hospital with cancer…with or without health insurance, you’ll be taken care of. I have never seen a woman having a baby under a bridge because she didn’t have any insurance.

        But you should expect to pay something…For instance..Deputy Katie did some schoolin in the healthcare bus…Sherrif Billy paid for her under graduate schoolin..But now she owes $400,000 just for her healthcare schoolin and they charge her 8% on those loans.
        Unlike your car mechanic….where you can’t get your car back until you pay…In healthcare, you get treated first and then we try to figure out how to get paid. If you can’t afford the bill….write a letter to the hospital explaining your circumstances. Then again you can’t expect to be driving a brand new pickup, your house is paid off and expect your providers to write off the bill. If you’re truly broke….you are treated like everyone else and they won’t take your clothes or old pickup from you. The drug companies will give away the most expensive drugs (normally $100,000 or more) for free to those truly indigent. I have found you can’t get blood from a turnip (Mr.f pay attention) but everyone honest can afford at least $5 a month. ( After three consecutive months if someone pays me $ 5 or one time with a money order..I write off the bill.)

        Sorry…It’s a pet peeve of mine…you touched a nerve

        • Talk about hitting a nerve… you are, in theory, partly correct, Sherif. But not factually.
          This post is not on any topic header for this site… so I’ll keep this short [ even though it may be deleted anyways ].
          The hospital’s only requirement by law is to stabilize… that’s a big difference in “care” for. Pharmaceutical companies give meds away for advertising, possible trial testing of one med for a different medical condition, addiction recovery, etc. and some cases, required if there is a emergency for it [which in many case, the tab gets paid by taxes dollars] such as flue shots for example [ during, what the government calls, an outbreak ] etc.

          Look up the story of the Doctor who discovered the use of plasma… the name escape me at the moment… in the 1950’s. died because he was refused his own invention… which kick started a better caring of all patients who need it.
          The sad part…[ even though slightly better] from then [ 50’s ] to now… we can’t get a reasonable and affordable system in place, for ‘all’… WTH is the problem???

          Yep, that nerve thing….

          • Seeker..I appreciate your comments.

            And I know there are exceptions to everyrule. But..Telling the Sherif and Deputy about healthcare is like you explaining the law to a judge……

          • Sherif,
            If you had all the information, you’d might know, I have also argued points of laws with judges, as well. The same is said for insurance companies, hospital’s coats and ties, long term health facilities, doctors… and know a bit about how the pharmaceutical sections works.

            I’m not here to buck-head on who’s more qualified… and more to the fact; in that time span of 77 plus years… we still haven’t come close to the actually “care sysyem” for all people. And, the future still looks bleak…

            Thanks for the memory kick… yes Drew.

  58. Mr. Seeker-

    How many years did the judge give ya…..How long have you been out?

    Best regards

    • LOL… whether your comment was meant as sarcastic or humor or sarcastic humor… rule one is to never let the badge or robe go to your head.
      The similar thought can be applied to the challenge… whether a geologist, literature professor, cryptologist or even a Goofy-old-guy who has long time mountain experience N. of SF. shouldn’t allow themselves to be fooled to think it’s only black and white to their studies and experiences.

      Something that Goofy-old-guy always seem to remind me not to forget, even if not intentional.

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