Home of Brown…Part Five


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This is for a discussion about “the home of Brown” in Forrest’s poem.

Got an HOB that didn’t work out…or maybe you need an HOB for a certain area…or perhaps you have an idea that needs some fleshing out..

This is the place to discuss all things HOB…


807 thoughts on “Home of Brown…Part Five

  1. Brown is capitalized…
    I don’t think it’s brown trout because it is not a specific noun.
    What do you guys think it is?

    • Hi Cheyenne: agreed that it’s not brown trout. I believe it’s capitalized because it is referring to a geographic place that has a proper name (and not a proper name that includes the word Brown).

      • Zap –

        I like that thinking. For example Bunsen Peak or any other named peak. He’s letting us know that the place has a proper name.

        I did find a new Home actually owned by a Brown and so I do need to explore that further. Oh well.


      • Hi Lug: thanks. You just have to be mindful of the dividing line between common knowledge and specialized knowledge. To me, this means a clue solution based on anyone named Meek or Brown is out the window, but I don’t thoroughly discredit such a solution if it fits a candidate solution. But if a solution *starts* there, it’s dead on arrival on my estimation.

          • Zap –

            Have you looked up halt in the dictinary?

            Home of Brown is a stand in for some other named place. The capitalization lets us know that the place will carry a name.

            Again like Bunsen for example. We are in agreement right?

            I added that since I found yet another place named Brown I would at least need to peek at it. I would say I added that tongue in cheek.

            By the way…
            Have you looked up Halt in the dictionary?

          • Lug: yes, we’re in agreement that “home of Brown” is a stand-in for an otherwise-named geographic place. And no, I haven’t looked up halt in a dictionary. I know what it means.

          • I am making a joke about Tighterfocus continually asking people if they have looked up Halt in the dic

      • Agreed, but I would say Dual structure, one for Brown Trout and one for a very famous Brown, of Colorado fame, she was Unsinkable in the Titanic disaster, Browns Canyon is just below Buena Vista, Co and the Arkansas River runs through it. Awesome rafting and Kayaking too, in my younger days when there was traffic across the Royal Gorge..


    • Hey Cheyenne, if you google images of “crayons”, you will see that where the color of the crayon is written on the side of the crayon, sometimes it is capitalized and sometimes it is lower case, depending upon brand. But even the most famous brand, Crayola, sometimes capitalizes it and other times doesn’t capitalize it,… depending upon what specific set of crayons it is. Mostly it appears to be lower case, but can be upper case. So, just the color “brown / Brown” can be capitalized, or not, and can mean nothing more than the color of brown. This is just my opinion, but it works for me.

      Safety First … Always


    • “Home” can be the place where someone or something lives, but it can also be a place of origin. Brown may refer to brown trout and could possibly be capitalized because it is the home of “Big” brown trout. Brown trout are not native to the US. They were brought here from Germany. I think it could be possible that Fenn is referring not only the location of big brown trout, but one of the locations where they were first stocked- their “home”. I like this assumption because it narrows the possibilities. A lot of rivers and lakes have brown trout, but not all of them are rivers or lakes where they were first stocked. My opinion for what it is worth.

      • I have thought about the first Brown trout stocking as HoB as well strait. FF suggest though that we cannot find this without finding the first clue right? Just an opinion but I’m not sure that FF designed this so that we could pin point a HoB so easily.

    • The first word in a sentence is capitalized, just a thought.. doubtful there’s anything to it but I haven’t seen it mentioned

      • This is true, but also the first letter of every line in the poem is capitalized (This is a norman convention used by many poem writers), not just the first letter in a sentence – hoB is the exception – Brown is the last word – OOPS. JDA

    • John Brown (May 9, 1800 – December 2, 1859) was an American abolitionist who believed in and advocated armed insurrection as the only way to overthrow the institution of slavery in the United States. Santa Fe Trail is a 1940 American western film.

  2. This is my best idea on interpreting “home of Brown” – I think it is Barns Hole on the Madison River.

    I think by “Brown,” Fenn is personifying Bessie, his “fawn-colored” cow that he loved, as “Brown.” He refers to her, and her home, a barn, several times in his book TTOTC.

    I know, you don’t think there is a blaze in that area. I have an idea for that too, but this is not the page for that.

    Home of Brown=A barn, namely, “Barn”s Hole on the Madison.

    Don’t let logic distract you from the poem, imagination is more important than knowledge.


    • Barns Hole is named for the old Barns that used to be in hat area, it is right inside the entrance from West Yellowstone. An area Fenn would be intimately familiar with.

    • In support, I think Fenn gave us an example of him doing this in The Totem Cafe Caper, “when the owner gave Frosty an inch, he thought he’d become a ruler, Frosty I mean….The Ruler thought both excuses were pretty lame…”

  3. Zap ~ “A big part of successful problem solving is deciding which pieces of information are not relevant.”
    I agree. That is why all the ATF are important as to, not dismissing one over another just by picking and choosing what works for your thoughts / solve. And I agree that, what we knew of from the start can’t override or undermine or dismiss the ATF as well. For me the use of the ATF must be all or none, if using as a check and balance of what we did know of at the start- in conjunction to – what is factual now. ex. wwwh is the actual first “clue” eliminating a “clue” [ one of 9] in stanza 1, but doesn’t eliminate stanza 1 as important.

    • At the danger of causing the Yellowstone Supervolcano to erupt by saying so, I completely agree with you!

    • I know some time back one of the regulars here put together a checklist gauntlet of tests. Since that time, additional ATF remarks have been made that should be appended (e.g. not under water, not near the Rio Grande, not under a manmade object, no need to move heavy rocks). It’s actually a quite lengthy list of prohibitions now.

  4. I never post, but just to throw this out there: Bb if you look up the letter b on Wikipedia the Phoenician pictograph (I don’t know what to call it) is called “bet” and the actual image is a “house”. The Egyptian hieroglyph is a foot and calf. The rune for B is Beorc and it means “birch”.

    Just the letter B has a lot to think about, and it may be capitalized simply to draw attention to that or it could be in combination with several other ways to look at it that are necessary to pin point a location.

    Just food for thought.

    • I have read thoughts of B for a musical note, but your post I don’t think has been mentioned. Thanks for that.
      Is this ‘the Becky” who asked about the “blaze” in the poem or only in the field Q&A?

      • Hi Seeker, I’m just Becky the up-to-now lurker 🙂 Guess what I just now found after I posted that:
        Burke (Forrest’s middle name)
        Irish (of Anglo-Norman origin): habitational name from Burgh in Suffolk, England. This is named with Old English burh ‘fortification’, ‘fortified manor’. Norwegian: Americanized form of Børke, a habitational name from any of eight farms in southeastern Norway, named with Old Norse birki ‘birch wood

        So there’s another possible connection with the Rune for B

        • Welcome to the madhouse. My only advice is don’t read my posts… read the poem… which i think we’re not reading correctly. lol.

          Example; Not far, but to far to walk. Many want this to be a distance, and that does sound logical. But I’ll attempt to type out a different reading of it…
          Not far, [ in a normal tone of voice ] But [ as in arguing against doing something ] too far to walk [ as saying there’s another option ]

          Is fenn saying – not far- but no need to go or walk there at all-?- stay where you are. So can the waters be actually putting in below hoB were we are standing at or the waters stop there, below the hoB and “put in” mean the location of wwh? This would mean “take it in” as a view of what to observe over where to go…

          LOL – I did advise not to read my posts, right?
          But I like the way you think…

          Loco, Goofy and others are probably saying… great a new comer, and the first blogger she meet is Seeker… that poor girl!

          Like fenn said, read the blogs for entertainment. That there [ fenn’s words ] is the best advise I can give you.

          • @Becky,

            “Loco, Goofy and others are probably saying… great a new comer, and the first blogger she meet is Seeker… that poor girl!”

            Welcome to chase….poor girl! Sorry Old Yeller met ya at the door. He chews through the leash all the time. 🙂

          • Seeker, on the contrary, I love your posts. I’ve been involved with the Chase for three years and so I’ve gotten to know and love many of the bright minds that post here and elsewhere.
            I’m glad you like the way I think. Maybe I’ll share some more of my craziness. It hasn’t done me much good so far and I can always use a fresh perspective.

          • Hello Seeker. ‘…the first blogger she meet is Seeker…’? I’ll agree with the ‘poor girl’. 🙂

  5. My last $0.02 on my HOB—the Lamar Ranger Station

    Here’s an FF quote from MysteriousWritings.com:


    “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f”

    FF said the “clues” did not exist when he was a kid because he wrote them when he was an adult.

    But, most of the “places” he refers to did exist.

    For example, the home of “Brown” didn’t exist when he was a kid, but the Lamar Buffalo Ranch did, and will continue to exist for hundreds of years (hopefully). https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/historyculture/lamarbuffaloranch.htm

    FF said some clues “might still exist in 100 years”, but are at the mercy of natural geographical changes (I think this refers to any canyons, homes, blazes, woods, etc.)

    The Lamar Ranger Station, for example, could remain a clue for 100 years as long as it wasn’t devastated by wildfires or an apocalyptic Yellowstone eruption.

    The treasure, on the other hand, could remain in it’s location for 2000+ years, but it would be more difficult to find because it would be hidden by geographical/topographical changes, and the geographical clues would become less relevant and noticeable over time.

    I don’t think Forrest ever said the clues or the clues locations would remain for thousands of years.

    A solid bronze chest, however, could last in it’s location for 10,000 years.

    Just my opinions. Good luck all!

    • AllenK,
      I’m not sure if I agree with you on; “FF said **some** clues “might still exist in 100 years”, However I do see how you came to that conclusion as to fenn’s wording; “most of the clues” meaning that most is only some of the clues. Unless one clue is not a place at all.

      Still my thoughts go to fenn thinking “down the road,” to mean the clues in the poem. If a fire can, or could have already, taken out a clue or clues… that thought of down the road for 100, 1000, years doesn’t seem well thought out.
      I guess I keep asking myself, how much research would someone in 3009 need to do if a clue or clues were to disappear yesterday.

      “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

      Maybe this is what fenn meant by; “People don’t understand that.” ?

      But you did put another thought in my head… let ya know how that turns out if it hold water.

    • Thanks AllenK for your opinions. I disagree with the hoB not existing when he was a kid. It would be a far stretch to put in below without a Brown from long ago. Just my opinion as I am still fleshing this one out.

      • I think the “home of Brown” existed when he was a kid, but I think he nicknamed it when he was older.

        In other words, the “clue” didn’t exist when he was a kid, but the home did.

        In my solve, the Home of Brown is the Lamar Ranger Station, and that has existed since 1906.

    • You’re welcome, Becky. I had wondered if it was you. Glad to see you posting here. I continue to enjoy your thoughts.

  6. I don’t think we are supposed to pay as much attention to the letter which is capitalized as much as where it is placed. Because there is capital involved as well as a Capitol.

  7. New topic (still HOB): Does ‘Home of Brown’ hold more meaning as a singular thing or do you view it as possibly plural, specifically the word Brown? I have a couple ideas with trout and in that case HOB would mean plural, not singular. I can see the case for a singular place/building/grave for a person, but for other brown things plural seems to keep popping up…here is my latest…this is copied from an official gov website, it was interesting to me as all listed seem to share some shade of brown: “…sanctuary for more than 330 species of animals, including bison, black-footed ferrets, deer, coyotes, bald eagles and burrowing owls.” I will confirm the where if someone correctly guesses where I got this…the spot (and website) also have ‘warm waters’…I just saw this, didn’t find any other clues for this spot, but it triggered the thought about singular/plural. What say ye o blogodytes? Brown=singular or plural, and why? or does it matter at all? If your answer involves some form of ‘the rest of the poem confirms my HOB’ and that is all you can say, please don’t bother…explain it please

    • Sherif: I don’t know about anyone else, but your AOL links are apparently not viewable by anyone who isn’t an AOL member. (Question: AOL is still an ISP? Last time I used them I had a 300-baud dial-up modem!)

    • You’re welcome! And I’m still curious to see the pictures; maybe you can put them in Photobucket or Dropbox.

  8. There are many of all the twist andt urns but i think i will share a few words that have been heavy on my mind mr Fenns treasure is in the field of dreams not yours or mine but his as a advid searcher that has viewed new mexico montana yellow stone colorado wyomining to many travels to mention and fun on every adventure a writer might start with the first word he thinks of so the pen takes him to his minds eye and here we are in the center of the storm tracking a quest of freedoms orry i spelt that wrong but free we are and MR FEnn is a part of the reason why so ty sir but the beauty around the induldgence must have the reason why we must think of this on our adventure good luck to all make sure you take a candle and a blanket if your venturing out this winter and a lighter and stick matches be safe alli ran into a masonic gold symbol that was a central fun for the day please be safe stay warm just rambling jb

    • Good to hear your words Jeff , you be safe yourself. Have a great day….. see ya buddy……

      • wow same day a year later ty it took some time to catch this thread reply still looking for that beauty spot see you all too

    • Good thoughts JB! I was JB too – before I married L. (smiley face). I also think that F’s rainbow includes significant people/events/things in F’s life as well. That is where the importance of imagination comes into play for me. IMO, the clues take us to places that, symbolically, are important to F. The journey he takes us on is his rainbow. The hiding place is just the end of that rainbow. And to me, the end is symbolically significant as well. Keep posting, JB. I don’t post often, but I am listening.

      • Your absolutely right JBL, did you know within the Hopi tribe there is a Rainbow Clan? I think it all ties together.

  9. its good for me to think some one is hearing what i say thought are never wasted if some one listens

      • The “boys” back home told me…(But I don’t know if I can trust them)……Tell really means to count….used in a sentence like a bank teller. Now the word good…..means math…..I sure everyone probably already knew that. BUT it was new to me.

        I was never very good in schoolin… that is why I went into sherifing.

  10. Home of Brown- good question. Grizzly dens in dense wooded Northern 30-60 degree slope about 8000 feet in upper half of mountains. So below half way down a northern slope 10000 foot mountain.
    Well no help there. Like if one of his fathers cabins was acquired from
    Mr. Brown. Only FF would know that answer. Its probably what a kid would say Home of Brown is Mr. Browns house. Which could have come from somewhere in the West Yellowstone area. I still think brown trout.

  11. I have come across some more browns. One Brown in particular was interesting a woman in Pueblo donated her natural blond hair to the war effort. Her hair was the perfect shade for making cross hairs. The bombers particularly used these……

    • Wow – that’s definitely one of the oddest things (in the best possible way) I’ve learned in the course of the Chase.

      I just marked Nov 22 as Mary Babnik Brown Day on my calendar – thanks mosby!


    • I remember a long time ago a TV segment with a man who raised black widow spiders in fish tanks in his basement. Their web threads were used for cross hairs in scopes. Might have been 60 Minutes or a like type show. I thought human hair was too thick or something.

    • Bt the way, the German version of Brown is Braun…as in New Braunfels, Texas. There was a such a man in Wyoming history. I only offer this because I have exhausted hundreds of Browns in the rockies.

      • Wow, and what did you do to exhaust these hundreds of Browns in the Rockies? Make them walk long distances? Climb mountains?

  12. Kyle Sandau if your reading this blog I need you to lookup this book. Sing for a Gentle Rain by J. Alison James. Remember little Alison and the million dollar clue? Close but no cigar, you are a very observant man.

    Fait Acompli

    • See also page 382 Pueblo Indian Religion, Volume 1
      By Elsie Worthington Clews Parsons

      Kyle here’s your answer about “The Lost Kivas of San Lazaro” Ric Hajovsky

      Excerpt from TTOTC
      Everyone on the TV was talking about how he had revolutionized
      writing novels in his day, and so on. The news said he was very
      secretive about what he did, and even Diane Sawyer mentioned
      that he’d written a lot of books and had hidden some in a vault
      so no one could read them. He seemed like my kind of guy but I
      couldn’t figure out how he could be such an important writer
      when I’d never even heard of him.

  13. “W.R. on October 16, 2017 at 1:26 pm said:


    So your are a sinks canyon fan based on that comment.

    If so, provide an email and I’ll provide somewhere you may have not considered. If not, the Minnesota is a long way off as that’s the only other spot that is like that in the US.”

    W.R. – I’ve been at that spot in MN numerous times on family camping trips – quite intriguing.

    • It’s also on/boarding property of the Double RL Ranch – belonging Ralph Laurens….

  14. Is it possible that “below the home of Brown” is an altitude reference. This would give 1) starting point. 2) direction. 3) distance. 4) altitude.
    All info that a pilot would need

    • rvdoc4000 –

      Yes sir!
      Altitude is super important to a pilot and altitude and elevation are not the same, but work together. There may be references to altitude in the book or poem that we are not recognizing.


  15. Charlie Brown comic strip; “home of brown”

    it fits his data as it did not exist when he was a kid.

  16. Last night I read a post that Cinthia said she heard and another heard Forrest state that HOB was not a structure. On Odds and Ends thread.
    I know that Forrest said the treasure was not associated with a structure. So now we see that it’s something else.
    Brown is a color. Brown could be a Fish or Animal or it’s home.

    • Lou Lee;

      I think that it has been said that where Indulgence is secreted ” is not associated with a structure. I do not see why any other clue might not be a structure. Good luck with your search – Stay out of the outhouses though – except if you need to use it – 🙂 JDA

      • Yes JD, we all know that but many, (not me). Thinks HOB is a structure possibly. However Cinthia stated last night on odds and ends that Forrest stated HOB it self is not a structure. So this eliminates places like Lamar ranger station, and many others, that searchers have thought of like Molly Brown’s home.
        Put in would mean a starting point for a journey, a river trip or a plane destination.

          • Thanks digging, I was trying to share this important piece of info. Did Forrest post This? Well no, but it makes sense. Cynthia seems reliable. It’s something to consider. I thought it was important. Heck even Forrest said something to me never was posted or wrote on a blog or book but I hold it as dear valuable information that eliminates some things on the chase!

          • Digging, Cynthias post is on the now closed comment thread last night, near the bottom of Odds and Ends thread.

          • Here is the post you guys are refering to: cynthia on December 9, 2017 at 6:53 pm said:

            JW, I’m not actually trying to sell you my book but there is a section in it where I talk about Forrest telling me HOB cannot be a structure. In my search story I was telling him about one of my searches (2014, I think); my hob was an old abandoned CCC cabin. I also talk about another searcher who used an Indian ruin as her hoB, and he told her the same thing. No structures.

            Hope this helps. Not having read Cynthia’s book, I can not put these “second-hand” comments in perspective, so will file them as “Interesting info.” JDA

          • JDA,

            I understand what you’re saying, but IF true, this is very disturbing to me because it would appear certain searchers are receiving huge clues not shared with the rest of the community and it’s real hard to conduct a fair game if the playing field isn’t level. At least one time in the past Forrest did just that because of a slip of the tongue regarding WWWH not being related to a dam and resulted in SB 68.

            So with that precedent being set, and with all due respect, I would like to request Forrest share his remark to Cynthia and others regarding HOB. This is very important to me because, in a word, my HOB is a structure.

            And if true, what about the other clues?


          • Hi Pina.

            First off…I want to say, I’ve never rcvd a response from FF from any email sent to him. Actually never thought I would, but just wanted to express my thoughts on his effort and the hunt…..but I also agree with you that email hints or help, is not keeping the playing field level…..

            Unless….those responses are not relevant at all.

            Could FF actually be responding with false information, just to throw a person off?

            I can’t say if this is true or not, but i do feel that what others have said, should not be occurring….even if you “think” you are more than just an acquaintance to FF.


            Just my two cents worth.


          • Tim,

            I believe Forrest to be an honorable and trustworthy man and certainly don’t want anyone to think I am accusing him of not being forthright and honest with all searchers.

            It is certainly plausible he again inadvertently said something he didn’t realize at the time. If that’s the case IMO he correct the oversight to re-level the field.


          • Pina-
            You must live in an imaginary world where life is perfect and everyone plays by the same rules. We’ve heard these unrealistic requests before on this blog…about others perceived to have gotten “insider information” about the chest and how darned unfair it is. I disagree.

            Forrest inevitably talks with others, searchers, family and friends about the chest. New information is bound to be revealed from time to time. Forrest is under no obligation to run this treasure hunt by anyone’s rules but his own, and given his independent and teasing nature why would you expect anything different from him?

            Imagine the conversations, recorded and otherwise that go on during a typical media interview. These interviews can go on for an hour or more. Yet, what is released to the public may be only a couple of minutes of edited aftermath…less than five percent of the actual interview. Is there information in the rest that could be useful? Of course there is.
            Imagine the conversations that go on in Forrest’s office with his family…a curious grandson at the age where he now grasps the value of grandpa’s hidden treasure and has a couple of questions.

            Pina, I hate to break it to you but there are thousands of pieces of information out there that are floating around in private minds that you will never hear about or be able to plug into your solutions.

            If you feel it should be otherwise than I think you should give up the chase before it causes your blood pressure to rise significantly.

            Instead, do as the rest of us do, who suffer no illusions about the flow of information that passes us by…take the volumes of information that we do have and work with it.

            One final thought about this…searchers should be grateful that folks like Cynthia and Doug are so willing to share. They didn’t have to. They could have held on to it for themselves…

            Have you ever heard a single hint shared by Shiloh or Chipper? Of course not…

          • Thanks for the head slap coach, but not so hard next time please. The wife put me that blue concussion protocol tent for evaluation this morning. I’m fine now.

            Kidding aside, I can be naive at times. It’s just that Cynthia’s revelation hit my solve pretty hard, one that I’ve been working hard for several months now since my last one didn’t work out, and the HOB I found was unique and fit very nicely into my puzzle solution. I have another, more natural HOB in the area, but it just doesn’t really do anything for me if that makes sense.

            I’ve lost a lot of time, but at least I didn’t waste money and even more time putting BOTG so thank you very much for that Cynthia and for being so unselfish in sharing your knowledge.

            Time to go back to WWWH and start down the canyon anew.

            I do appreciate the wake up call Dal.


          • Hello Covert One. Go to “Searchers Discussions” link and you’ll find Archive pages there, too.

          • Hey CO…just to spark a conversation….

            Being new…do you think you have a fresh set of eyes on the hunt?

            Have you tried to read the previous years blogs in order to the various theories and solves?
            Can you summarize your mine clues to places/locations/elevation/things FF said, etc….?

            How well have you achieved any of these things?

            Are you a spiritual person? Can you think on many levels? Are you willing to be brave and put aside your fears?

            So much to think about, huh?

            Crazy fun!!!!


          • Tim – so many questions, so little time!

            I was actually joking when I mentioned being a newby….just couldn’t remember how to get to the archived information on this site.

          • Excellent points, Dal. Any time anyone speaks with Forrest in person, or receives a personal email, he or she is receiving “private information.” That Cynthia chose to share a piece of private, apparently Chase-relevant information with everyone is a testament to her character. She certainly was under no obligation to do so.

            Nevertheless, it is second-hand information and so it is up to individuals to decide whether to embrace or ignore it as they see fit. (I happen to take Cynthia at her word, though frankly I’ve never had any manmade structures play any part in any of my clue solutions — it would seem too “impure” and unFennlike to incorporate unnatural elements in the Chase.) In any case, it’s not an especially helpful piece of information; kind of like ruling out outhouses or graveyards.

          • “I would not have hidden the treasure if I didn’t want everyone to have a fair chance of finding it. f ”

            “If they don’t know the rules, tell them to stay home and play Canasta.” f

            Thank you for explaining the rules, dal. I see now that I have been laboring under a misapprehension for several years.

            Thanks again for the forum, and all your, and Goofy’s, hard work.

        • I’m not going to get into the fair play or not idea.
          But I would like to review…
          Q&A, MW’s a questioned asked directly to fenn and answered by fenn for posting on a blog…
          “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits? Thanks, d.”
          “Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information.f .”

          Now, If Cynthia heard or was told by others information… [I personally could careless, I’m not going to get into what anyone thinks fair play is, but only what I think it is]… I have to ask ‘myself’… What exactly was stated?
          We tend to hear what we want to hear.

          I don’t know what Cynthia means by “I talk about Forrest telling me HOB cannot be a structure. ” or “no structures”
          Was there a reason hoB “can not” be a structure? Was it stated exactly like that? Did fenn specifically say “no structures” and what was he talking about at that moment or how it was stated… hoB? WWH? In the wood? All the clues?

          If Cynthia would like to post this part of her book to help clarify, that might be helpful, even in our own minds. But even then, it’s still would be only [ no offense Cynthia ] unsubstantiated. Or if fenn would like to help clarify this in anyway, he can do so, if he chooses. Not unlike; wwh is not a dam.

          My point is… without the exact wording, I personally can’t jump the gun and make any real changes to what my thoughts are at this moment… { lol which has always been no structure related to any part of the poem’s clues… not now or in 3009. anyone who ever read my post knows I think that… And that is simply an opinion}.

          I also seem to me I recall another searcher who stated fenn saying; “Don’t mess with my poem.” It was some time later fenn made a comment that seemed to clarify that searcher to be correct in his recalling… Maybe time will tell with Cynthia comment.

          But I can also say.. other books have been written by searchers that have extraordinary words from fenn or themselves and not been substantiated either, and fenn never said anything about those… One title; How I found the solution to FF poem < really, I'm curious to who actually bought that book? I'm sure someone did.

          O'well… that's my commentary for tonight…

          • Clever last line . . . I get it.

            OH! I almost forgot to say something
            about the treasure hunt . . .

            It appears that FF is a fan of Tony
            Bennett. I wonder whether FF is
            also a fan of Lewis’s partner (not
            Clark), whose “well” known words were related to this treasure hunt. IMO.

          • A different, but possible way to read FF’s quote could be:

            Q: “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues…”
            A: “yes,”
            Q: “or just where the chest sits?
            A: “it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure.
            Q: Thanks, d.”
            A: Google “structure” for more information.f .”

            Grammatically, if he wanted to only say it was not hidden in or about a structure, he should have said “No,” but says “Yes,” and then explains.

            This is different than how I had previously read this quote.

  17. if a memory of a brown resides inside a structure does it not make that the home of brown we know indulgence is not inside

  18. im associated with you even if we haven’t met its another twister how is it personal with sir fenn and how can we ever know for sure

  19. Thanks JD for Posting Cynthias info. Maybe too I should just say. Forrest hints to things when he communicates. We glean from it and make our conclusions. No one said Big Clue. However this HOB comment is subject to interpretations. Who knows? I’m listening.

    • As I said, not having the context of the “Second-hand” conversation, I will file it under “Interesting Info.” – JDA

  20. I am new to this hunt. Just started reading all I can this year. So I will soak up any help that is offered. Is it possible that THOB is a reference to elevation? I.E. —- THOB Could be some place in Utah at an elevation of 6000 ft. If the clues were leading to NM, then if you “put in” below 6000 ft, would this work?

    • Not following your logic – What is there in hoB that leads you to Utah (not one of the 4 listed states) and 6,000′?

      Sure, ANYTHING is possible if the poem leads you there. Just the chattering of an OLD fool – JDA

      • I guess my logic is not very clear. I’ll try again. If the hoB is in any state, can I find the elevation of that place and “put in” below that elevation in another state, and still fulfill the clue “put in below the home of Brown”

        • mvdoc4000;
          As I said, Sure, ANYTHING is possible if the poem leads you there.

          I would NOT start with hoB though. Begin it where Forrest says to begin it – Begin it wwwh – That is clue #1. IF you find a wwwh location, that has a canyon going down (south or in elevation), and this canyon crosses – say Utah into NM or CO, sure, give it a whirl. Same for CO to NM etc. Just sayin it COULD be okay, provided the poem tells you to go there – JMO – JDA

          • Thanks JDA
            Like I said, I am new to this hunt. I am developing a theory for next summer that starts with wwwh. But getting a handle on how FF thinks has been a challenge. And fitting the hoB into my theory isn’t easy. But then, if it were easy, it would have been found already. rvdoc

        • rvdoc,

          Sure, any clue could be in one state and the chest in another… whether elevation be the factor or even lat or long. I had at one time, the “Browns Valley man as hoB with the 45 degrees to a location in MT, to put in below. I’ll toot my own horn and say it was a brilliant solve, one of a kind, couldn’t be wrong, every thing fit like a glove…
          Well, until fenn came along with these pesky ATF comments and said; Searcher who had the first two clues walked by all the others, and the chest.
          One of those quote goes as;
          “It’s not a matter of trying. It’s a matter of thinking. Sure, I mean people figured out the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest”

          I mean, didn’t he know how smart I am, or how long I worked on that solve… how rude.
          Sure, I guess an elevation in one state can work for another clue in another state… but imo doubtful

          Oh! By the way… welcome to the mad house. White coats with long sleeves required… a tie is optional. Please check in and register with the from desk, ask for Goofy, who will be please to hand you a password key to your special reserved padded room. If you have any concerns or FAQ, dial 0 for management, and ask for Dal…

          • rvdoc,
            lol, You must have the older version.. the new style used belt buckles. Were a trendy group here… just check out the hat competition thread. And who doesn’t like a gal in cowboy boots? Zebra or any other kind.
            Is that still politically correct-?- “cowboy boots”
            Hmm, would a gal be considered a dude or a dudette… I just hope there not all Bro’s. I still get confused if that means a surfer or a gang-banger. I guess women can be both as well… sorry what was I talking about?

            Oh right! clothes are optional, Umm I mean, style of clothes. It’s not that kinda hotel.

          • One of his ATF comments sent me though a , “debunk my solve”, crises point too ,once. But then I recouped- I think. Lol.

      • JDA….

        The TC is located in one of four states.

        I don’t think FF had ever stated the map didn’t start elsewhere. He did state 8.25 miles north of SF….so that latitude is pretty wise spread.

        I think you get my point.


        • BTW – my WWWH behind in one of the four states…..just in case you were windering, so I don’t fall into that camp.

    • If your idea fits with how you read the poem ,as a map , resulting in a conclusion location to in one of the 4 states; then your idea has possibility . I haven’t read the poem in the way you are thinking but I wouldn’t say to eliminate the idea. IMO .

  21. Although Cynthia did not need to share…she did. Her shared comment should spark an idea that the treasure is not associated with any structure. Fenn has alluded to this in other comments but folks seem to think it only means one thing or aspect of the Chase. I just do not understand where Fenn may have ever thought that any structure would be a wise clue choice that would survive 1000yrs. ? Mind boggling.
    Thanks for putting it out there Cynthia.

    • Thanks, Ken, for your support. As a fairly new searcher in 2014, I felt like ff telling me “Don’t you remember I said it can’t be associated with a structure” (regarding my hoB) was really revealing, when in actuality, if folks really listened to what he says over and over using different words, now makes this seem so obvious to me 4 years later. Like you stated, how could any of the clues be a structure? Look at the forest fires that have ravaged huge areas, including YNP, and many places in Colorado and NM over the last 8 years. I doubt Forrest thought he was giving me any significant information. He was probably silently wondering why I was so dense when we all should know “the clues need to withstand the test of time.” cynthia

      • Cynthia, ~’As a fairly new searcher in 2014, I felt like ff telling me “Don’t you remember I said it can’t be associated with a structure” (regarding my hoB) was really revealing,..’

        While I get the quotation to be what you felt / thought fenn was relaying… just by putting that in quotes, others may, and will, perceive it as fenn’s actual words. LOL I can almost guarantee those words will be used later by an other stating ‘fenn said this’… and not so much Cynthia felt like…

        What was actual said to you and not so much what you felt was being relayed?

        I also [ as I posted earlier ] believe for any clue to last and meet fenn’s thoughts of down the road and / or the RM’s movement will surely have an impact… the clues, imo, are of natural features and not structures. So sure, it seems obvious to me.

        But unless we can verify what fenn stated with more accuracy… a conversation from 2014 leaves us with a bit of a conundrum. The WWH is not a dam comment killed a few theories [but helpful], the many wwwh in the Rockies comment knock out some others [but helpful], The treasure is not associated with a structure, is what many have lived by while attempting to solve the poem.

        Was this conversation you had with fenn a recorded interview? Does your book say anything different to the post[s] on the blogs, and if so would you be willing to share. Was the conversation in an e-mail and do you have that available? Just curious, and I’m sure many others are as well.

        • Makes you wonder? Fenn was saying the treasure was not associated with a structure. Could he slipped and said home of Brown. The older I get I say things that slip out etc. Lol. I have to correct myself.
          However another heard this too. I’m rethinking my “home’s ” of Brown. There are a few. Don’t focus on that….Start at the beginning. And try to unlock that darn Key!

        • Seeker, Since you asked so nicely, I will reply. In my book I write about the entire conversation I had with Forrest 10/02/2014 at the Collected Works Bookstore. (I have a Word Document that is my time-line with the date of EVERY conversation, visit, emails I’ve had with him as well as media I’ve done with or without him, and events of his I’ve attended. So I’m not just stating this from memory… it’s in my notes., which is what I used when I wrote my book.) The CONTEXT of the statement in quotes is there in my book but not on this thread. That is understandably important to some of the readers of this blog…others who know me, not so much…they know me.

          However, I also added in my book in this same paragraph and I thought on the old thread here that FF told another searcher the same thing when she revealed to him that her hoB was an Indian ruin, and he told her the same thing “Don’t you remember I said it can’t be associated with a structure.” This woman told me this at Fennboree 2016, and I was so happy to hear he confirmed to her what he told me. She is a local searcher I’ve known for several years and keeps to herself.

          Fenn has stated the blogs are for entertainment… Use this information or don’t. What astonishes me is how many people don’t want to hear things Fenn told me or other searchers one-on-one because it doesn’t fit their solve. They dismiss it like I/ we made it up. A good example: how many times did I mention in my stories or comments here that WWWH was the first clue? All the searchers who wanted the first clue to be in the first stanza didn’t want to hear it. And that’s ok… Fenn did say the blogs are for entertainment.

          Everything I wrote in my book is correct and not mis-stated. I used my notes… not my memory. And I shared more than just “hoB is not associated with a structure.” But I guess I better never state that info here.

          Now when Mindy wrote on ChaseChat last month that FF told her “it’s not in Yellowstone”, should I believe her or not. I guess I’m experiencing the same dilemma as some of you. To believe or not to believe… hmmmm. We each need to figure out what information from searchers we want to keep, file under “maybe but…maybe not”, or just plain reject.

          Dal summarized it best earlier in this post regarding Forrest talking to tons of searchers in the previous 7 years. He said lots of stuff to lots of searchers, both face-to-face at lunches, visits to his home, or in emails. I actually offered a local guy $100 to see what ff wrote in his TTOTC book…. something that ff told him (about 4 years ago) that he “never told anyone else.” This guy let me see the inscription for free, but if I find the chest, I owe him one of the large nuggets. And he told me I was not allowed to share this with others, so I never have shared it. It is not in my book, but I sure wanted to add it to one of the pages of Fenn quotes. It’s a doozy! I’ve never seen it posted or heard it mentioned.

          This firestorm is why I seldom post comments anymore. I’ve received personal emails, messages on FaceBook and emails from ff that people are complaining to him. AGAIN! My gosh, this cycle has been going on for 4 years… Someone please find Fenn’s treasure chest to stop the madness!

          Seeker, I hope this answered your question… I understand your concerns. cynthia

          • Woo hoo ! Again Cynthia…nice post and certainly more than gracious.
            Interesting additions… Mindy’s , not so much…but the guy with the inscription that you peeked at, that one made my ears perk up quite a bit!
            The folks that complain to Fenn should be ashamed….leave the guy alone, he’s done enough! And, don’t let the storm keep you from posting…
            psst…tell the guy with the inscription that this other guy(ken) will give him 2 nuggets and a couple of Eagles…

          • Thank Cynthia you truly seem like a great person. I’m so blessed you are a part of this great and moral treasure hunt.

          • Pdenver,
            Great to see you again. We should really meet up sometime and trade ideas. I live in denver too!

          • Hi Cynthia-

            You are one of the people that let us know Fenn had only one question when he met a searcher for the first time.

            Where’s your warm water halt?

            I appreciate that piece if knowledge. It’s the reason I knew wwh was the first clue and I shared that on HoD. Nobody listened.

            As I keep saying.
            Listen to Cynthia

          • I am still just absolutely enthralled with the positive and lovely comments Cynthia has made. She is a true searcher and an absolutely wonderful person. Go get get em Cynthia. Good for you. I see such a bright future for you

          • Cynthia,
            Thanks for getting back…
            First, I don’t want you to think I’m saying what you stated to be not true. But I personally need to work the ATFs out in the hopes the help me to not travel down a rabbit hole.
            I don’t look at the ATF as “hints” or “clues”… I attempt to find truth between all of them combined, even when they seem to contradict each other at times

            Fenn’s Q&A…
            “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the *chest sits*? Thanks, d.”
            “Yes d, it means the *treasure* is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information.f .”

            Lets play this simple at first…
            The answer seems to say. The treasure means the chest, and inadvertently the treasure/chest is not in or around a structure. There is no mentioned of any clues [when asked directly about them] in fenn’s answer.

            Logically, that leaves the door open for a structure to be another clues, right?
            Sure, I know we have other comments that can be perceived as no structures for a clue… as I said earlier.
            So to be straightforward, in all honestly, My thoughts are asking why fenn didn’t include the 9 clues, but only answered “treasure” ..and.. how you could make the statement that seems to contradict fenn’s own words in this Q&A.

            Ok, I stated all that for this reason[ings];
            1. One of the two, comment/Q&A, is wrong or misunderstood.
            2. fenn didn’t want to give out anything that would help in the Q&A, not unlike fenn saying he “hid” the chest but that doesn’t mean its “not buried”, line of thinking… so he stuck to his guns [ so to speak ] and answer the Q&A to match a prior ‘clues’ from the today show, line of thinking.
            3. And it’s a long shot,
            There might be more than meet the eye with the words chest vs. treasure vs. trove, to think about.

            Whatever the final out come… all of this has me thinking. Nottin wrong with thinking those WhatIF’s.

            Thanks again…

          • LOL!! Seeker, I feel ya pain!!

            First, I have never entertained the idea that HOB could be a ‘structure. So Cynthia’s revelation means nothing to me.

            Second, in case anyone was wondering, I have never written Fenn complaining about anything. If I choose to challenge someone, Fenn included, I do so out in the open, here on hoD!!…..at least, until Goofy hits the button! 🙂

            In her OP, Cynthia wrote: “….I talk about Forrest telling me HOB cannot be a structure.”, when she was telling him about one of her searches.

            In a subsequent post, she wrote: I felt like ff telling me “Don’t you remember I said it can’t be associated with a structure” (regarding my hoB)…..

            So, without context, I suppose it’s possible that she could interpret his remark, in her second post, as meaning as “HOB cannot be a structure”.

            As far as the searcher Cynthia references for corroboration, we know absolutely nothing about her, or the context of her interaction with Fenn.

            Maybe he was talking about HOB,who knows? After all, he is slightly hearing impaired. Who knows if he correctly heard/understood what Cynthia was saying?

            And, apparently if you want the context of Cynthia’s conversation with Fenn, as she remembered when she got home to write it down, you will have to buy her book(but, you will also get more hints). Buy the book if you wish to pursue this further….I don’t.

            Cynthia, if you read this, I am not attacking you. Everyone who posts here gets challenged at one time or another, especially if they post something about confirmation of a clue. I like you a lot and enjoy reading your stories. I think you are being totally truthful, in your understanding of what you thought Fenn was referring to, within the context of your conversation with him.

            And, Cynthia, I certainly have no problem with searchers ‘thinking’ that Fenn has given them private info,(even when he has repeatedly said he won’t do that)……you know, that means less competition!! 🙂

            I was always 99 percent sure that BIWWWH was the first clue. However, it was nice to find absolute confirmation. You want us to accept your statement as fact…If the context of the conversation proves your claim, that is wonderful. We, as searchers, have very few absolutes in this Chase that we can rely on. (If ya can get Goofy to add it to the Cheat Sheet, then that would do it) 🙂

            Cynthia, all I’m trying to accomplish (and I think Seeker), is to keep the separation betwenn fact and opinion. Dal has addressed it in the Rules.

            Anyway, Cynthia, you go girl….keep on, keepin’ on!!

            And Good Luck to Ya!!

            (I ‘spose the real question is: What did Fenn tell ya that made you drop New Mexico all of a sudden…and make a run for the North country??) 🙂 

          • Hey Cynthia,

            I hope that all is well with you and yours. I just ordered your new book. I am sure that it will be a good read. However, I will not be reading it or Mr. Fenn’s new book for a while until my eye is healed from retina surgery. I hope that you sell lots of copies. I also hope that your new search area proves to be fruitful for you. I was disappointed to hear about Fennboree, we missed 2017 but were looking forward to 2018. But, that is life. If we find our way to West Yellowstone in June, which is unlikely but not impossible, we will try to make your mini-Fennboree.

            Windy City

          • Cynthia – As a fellow competitive searcher it is hard not to feel somewhat slighted when learning that FF has given out seemingly significant information to an individual or group of individuals by whatever manner or means while balancing an understanding that this is his TTOTC and he can do as he wishes with his information. We are all only human.

            I will admit to being one of the people alluded to who has written to FF in “request mode”. Specifically, my request was regarding his First comment from SB78 and I simply asked that if he (FF) feels like something should be shared, let us all know somehow without the possibility of censorship. That letter was not intended as an attack by any means on either of the two men (Dal or FF) and the bulk of same was actually thanking him for the things TTOTC has done for me and my family—just a request for as level a playing field as possible for the greatest number of participants possible. Life doesn’t always make such possible.

            Like many people, where I make a living and raise/care for my family means that, despite a strong desire to, I can’t hobnob with FF or perform daily/weekend searches, so all I have to put into the TTOTC I glean from online, his books, ATF’s, etc. and am very appreciative of the sharing that goes on. While your revelation that HOB (and apparently the whole chase) isn’t associated with any structure does little to impact my own current solve, I am sure you can imagine how such knowle(d)ge could devastate a searcher’s psyche when their whole solve revolved around HOB actually being some form of structure (I think it was Iron Will who recently gave up the chase after something was posted about where FF parked his car).

            Those who think TTOC doesn’t have its costs as well as its perks are fooling themselves.

            I’ll probably get blasted by some for posting this, and others may agree with me, silently or otherwise.

            I’m only human, too, and will continue my TOTC despite all the odds.

          • Over the seven years of the search for Indulgence there have been many “leaks” of useful information from folks close to Forrest. In each instance there have been those who feel it is important to somehow express their angst with Forrest for divulging information to some but not all…
            But there have also been those who were upset when Forrest provided new information to all of us at the same time. For instance, when Forrest ruled out the states of Utah and Idaho…
            I remember one searcher who was so upset that he seemed to lose his ability to think objectively when he told me that he wished that Forrest never gave out any new information at all because now he knew that he had spent his time and money foolishly when he first started out since he was then looking in Utah.

            Reminds me of these words:
            “Two things prevent you from becoming a success: dwelling in the past with regret, and following others blindly.”
            ― Debasish Mridha

          • Cynthia,
            It’s a doozy! I’ve never seen it posted or heard it mentioned.

            I can sense this got to you… Well, no more sleep for me.

          • Bowmac and others,
            Perhaps those of us that have stuck to the poem and the poem only have a better chance of coming to a correct solve sooner than those who listen and analyze and ponder and dissect and construct and re-
            I fell in love with the poem.
            It has 9 sentences/clues.
            I have listened and followed directions.
            And then listened some more.
            All is good.
            All we have to do is keep our eyes on the title to the gold.
            And keep reading and listening.

          • Thanks Cynthia,
            “This firestorm is why I seldom post comments anymore.”
            Well stated, IMO, it’s hard to disagree with a respected botg searcher.

          • Clearly Clueless – I can appreciate that you seem to be telling me (and others) that you are a poem purist. In rebuttal I would simply ask if the poem itself has led you to rule out such things as Canada, Idaho, dams, the Rio Grande, outhouses, graveyards, etc. or has your perusal of other information posted online influenced you as well? Like Seeker has stated on more than one occasion about his own search method, I, too, attempt to prove/disprove things using the ATF quotes/information to verify or refute what the poem is saying to me. Ignoring the other things FF has said/done regarding TTOTC may turn out to be an expensive misstep, including information graciously shared by other respected searchers which some see as a monumental-whopper-of-a-doozy.

          • Hey Bowmac,
            While I have been called a poem purist myself… and I kinda am. The reason being is fenn consistently telling us to go back to the poem… and … all the information to find the chest is in the poem. So I work with that… mainly because, even thought the book can help with the clues [per fenn], That’s 147 pages of many possibilities to just say… page, whatever, says this and I think it means that and I’m gonna run my entire thought process around that.

            However, anyone who says all anyone needs is the poem alone is fooling themselves. It’s so obvious that its dumbfound to think if i simply found the 24 line poem i could solve it. Why?
            We were told there are 9 clues… why there are 9 and why we were told has yet to be seen… but fenn must have felt it important to give that number.
            We were told, In the mountains N.of SF… again, without this, could the poem be solved… I highly doubt it. Even when we have read the ATFs about the RM’s I still don’t understand why fenn just didn’t say RM’s to start with or why SF and not SF NM.

            Are these pieces, of after the facts pieces of information, we take for granted now -?- but was a need to understand [and possibility understood by those who solved the first two clues and were on location? ]

            Which brings me to my point; There is no mentioned of rainbow in the poem, yet fenn stated the clues will lead us to “his rainbow” before even mentioning the ‘treasure chest’ in the sentence prior to the poem… Important? A metaphor? IDK, But it is interesting he stated it and before the chest itself.

            IMO ~ the book can be very confusing [ because many look for ‘answers’ within it, but without any information from it… the poem can’t not stand alone. That is one reason I say… we’re missing something, and we’re reading this poem wrong. We’re not seeing fenn’s big picture. Whatever that is.

            End of commentary..

          • Seeker – I understand where you are coming from and only mentioned you to assert that I also use ATF comments to check/balance things about the poem, other ATF comments, etc., not to call into question your reason(s) for doing so. We (sometimes) think alike.

          • Thanks Seeker, for reminding me about – “The clues will lead you to the end of my rainbow” – This was very helpful – The END of somewhere where there is a rainbow of colors maybe? – Thanks – JDA

          • Evidently, as I peruse this conversation, I’m noticing no one even visiting the subtle and yet obvious use of these words.

            Metaphorically and in only legend, a pot of gold is at the end of a rainbow.

            Rainbows and gold are associated to hidden treasure….just ask “Lucky” or the nearest leprechaun.

            One knows that rainbows are associated to water…..this it is practical to say, that the location of the TC could very well be situated under a mist/splash of water that can cause a rainbow to be seen.

            FF reflects that at the end of his tainbow, a pot of gold exists.

            IMO – The rainbow is his glorious path to his gold.

            A forest holds many colors of the rainbow, and as you visit our national forests in the Summertime, you will also find that they are vibrant with many colors on top of other even many other colors.

            It you can find [the path] to my rainbow, you will find my pot of gold.

            Metaphorically speaking.


          • Bowmarc and Seeker,
            Thanks guys. I stand corrected and have no problem with that. Thinking back when I found this poem about 2 years ago online, I did also read about the 4 states which were still in the running. I also, read in the article about there being 9 clues.
            Obviously, looking at only these 4 states gives us a good place to start.
            From the very beginning 9 clues has been important to my theory. So, yes, I appreciate Forrest giving all of us those facts.

          • I didn’t think that, Bowmarc… I was just rambling more about it. It’s always good to revisit thoughts of why or why not the poem can work on its’ own, or is there information from the book that is needed to be heard of.
            I always wondered why fenn stated in the mountains N. of SF… was it simply a general idea to keep folks from wondering into his property? Didn’t want to narrow down a stated or region or even to the USA [ at the time of the book release ]. Or is there something we need to know about the RM range in total and not just a state or region.

            LOL hence; a few of my theories revolved around the mountain range itself. One theory was using national parks as to fenn’s later comment of drawing lines… the first 9 to be exact… then later… the oldest to newest in the search area [ new and old , line of thinking ]… Unfortunately I don’t think the clues {references} are that far apart… even if drawing lines can pin point a place.
            Especially now, when fenn said he follow the clues ‘when he hid the chest’

          • Clearly Clueless,
            Don’t sweat it… your screen name says it all..lol… Welcome to My World. The sky is clear and clueless here.

    • Mr. Ken–
      IMO The HOB did not survive 1000 years….it didn’t even make 100. IMO all that remains is a sorry bit of the foundation. BUT…..history will always know where it once stood.

      Only my thoughts;


      • Sherif, I like this idea. Maybe the foundation doesn’t even still exist at the hoB. On a map of the Pecos Wilderness, there is a place designated Beatty’s Cabin because in the 1800s, there was actually a cabin there. Now there’s nothing there but everyone who hikes or hunts there knows that particular spot as Beatty’s Cabin.

        • Oops, I stand corrected on Beatty’s Cabin. I received an email from a person saying they hiked there several years ago and there is indeed a cabin. I was sure I read the history and it was no longer there… my bad. I apologize. I stopped short of the spot because it was a long hike… I mean an all-dayer one way. I’d have to backpack and spend the night there… and then return to my vehicle the next day. I hope to do a pack-trip there where you pay a cowboy and mules to take you up into the Pecos. As Fenn said “I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak”. For me, that translates to I’m old and tired and need a mule to carry my stuff.

          • Wow Cynthia. Just such an excellent and hard working searcher you are. Keep up the great work. I’m truly impressed.

          • A new structure was built at the original site of Beatty’s Cabin, which is again called Beatty’s Cabin.

          • Cynthia

            May I suggest you are confusing a couple of infamous Chase cabins? Beattys Cabin and Amelia Earharts cabin.


      • Billy…those are great thoughts…and who knows really. I would still say that your “scenario” still suggests a structure. But…that’s just me.

        • Oh Billy! You sly fox. You special little puppy pillow. No but really I while heartedly agree.

  22. Cynthia has confirmed to me that Forrest told her that home of Brown is not a structure. That appears to exclude a lot of potential solutions presented here, including mine. ;-(

    • Tom B… man that stinks…but think of all the new ideas you can now entertain!! It almost feels good to start fresh….

    • Maybe it’s not a structure but it’s many structures. If someone asked do you have a car, I can say no, because I have three cars. I can say no and still be telling the truth, just not all of it. Forrest is very good at that type of foolery.

      • By the way, Am I the only one ( I must be , never heard it from anyone else anywhere) here that thinks that the sentence “Put in below the home of Brown.” is two of the nine clues?

        We know that THOB is one clue (geographical location), right? So put in below it is another clue (geographical location). So that one sentence is two clues. Remember Forrest said in response to an interviewer, sounds like 3 or 4 clues to me.
        This just might help someone in their plight to solve the poem. Just trying to be helpful.

      • You may “well” be able to say “no”. People lie.
        I don’t approve of the telling of lies.

  23. The HOB, has always been a problem, for me. I just make the assumption that WWWH, is already below the HOB.

    • James;

      Doesn’t make sense to me. Forrest says to begin wwwh OK -a spot on a map.
      “And take it in the canyon down” – Has to mean south or lower in elevation.
      So, take the canyon south or lower in elevation some distance – what distance?
      “Not far, but too far to walk.” Let’s say 10 miles just for the heck of it. (Could be more, could be less).
      “Put in BELOW the hoB”. If we were going south, we “put in” somewhere farther south than the hoB – Isn’t that right?
      If we were going lower in elevation, from wwwh, I guess that we could be traveling in any direction, N,S,E or W. Few waterways in the Rockies flow north – a few, but not many.
      We can mostly check this one off our list.
      Some flow east for short distances, and then turn south. Almost none flow West, except if you are on the western slopes of the Rockies, and usually that puts you in Idaho or Utah. – out of bounds so we can eliminate most of these. Am I right? So, in almost every case, you will be going south, or at least southerly, even if you are using the elevation thing.

      So, considering all of the above, why would you ASSUME that wwwh is already below the hoB? Sorry, just does not compute for me. – But what do I know? NADA – JDA

      • Hi JDA.

        I see an error in your thinking.

        Not so much as an ‘error’ error….just something I noticed you seem to have already discarded…..

        You speak of…in your post that “hoB” is a reference to a “waterway”? We’ll that is my understanding of what you wrote.

        IMO – you dismiss many other possibilities….isn’t that just guessing, but do you have something that gives creedence you are correct in your guess?

        Good luck.

        • Tim;

          My logic is this. “Begin it where warm WATERS halt…” This implies to me that at least some water is flowing in some sized creek or stream – up until the place it “halts”.

          Since Forrest says there is no dam, I have to assume that the “waters” in the stream or creek enter the canyon that must be taken “down”

          I suspect, but do not KNOW, that the warm Waters creek or stream join some other stream, creek or river – Just a guess, and it matches my solve area. Even if it does not join another body of water, it still must go DOWN the canyon to a place below hoB.

          That is my logic – JDA

          • JDA,
            I believe Fenn is referring to the blog that Toby did on ” When And Where Warm Waters Halt” Not to mention the Hopi Indians are some of the warmest people you will ever meet! I believe he is also referring to the Water Clan

        • Tim – My hoB is a stream that empties into the Blue Ribbon canyon down fly fishermen’s waterway, aka my “IT”, and that creek classically turns the proverbial Brown, during Spring runoff or during heavy thunderstorms, ie. those experienced during Forrest’s and Donnie’s L&C story. There was a Brown Indian Blackfeet settle mentioned, up that Cabin Creek canyon, per Osborne Russell, and My Grizz and all his Brown bear friends have established permanent residence there. And then there is the 10lb Brown trout caught on video by Bob Jacklin in the deep hole in front of my wise glacial erratic Owl Blaze Boulder, located across the Madison River from the secluded Day Use Area, where I think Forrest parked his sedan. If that was on Father’s Day, 2010, that was a really long day.

          Put in at my hoB at the Cabin Creek Trailhead, if you dare…

          Lions and Cutthroats and Grizzes, Oh My!

          Follow the Yellow Brick Road, from West Yellowstone’s YNP Entrance.

      • JDA, here’s a brief point I want to make . . .

        FF has cautioned us to pay attention to the nouns
        in the poem. Have you looked up “down” in a

        It’s gonna be a very long winter.

        • tighterfocus

          Yes, I have looked up the MANY meanings of down,.. and use two or three different interpretations as I work my way through the poem – more than once. JDA

      • “Below The Home Of Brown” in the old censes reports the Native Americans were referred to as The Brown People just as White or Black is capitalized. In his story of visiting Border’s Book store he telling you it near the Border of an Indian Reservation and that it’s a reservation consisting of The Water Clan as it rained for two days!

      • Hi JDA, When I read the poem, It seems to me, that from “begin it where, to put in”, can be read as a continuous sentence. Putting WWWH, automaticaly below the HOB. It’s just a way of eliminating something that seems to be a problem to solve, but has no factual tangibility. Like the entire first stanza.

          • What are you doing with the lines “And take it in the canyon down, Not far but too far to walk”? Are you ignoring these lines? If you are, it might be a mistake – JMO – JDA

        • James;

          Please look closely at the punctuation. There is a period (end of sentence) at the end of “walk”.

          “Put in below the home of Brown” is a separate – stand-alone sentence (The only one-line stand-alone sentence in the poem. There are a couple of other stand-alone sentences, but they use two lines – Just a thought. Why emphasize this “One line” that way? …Then to add the capital letter on Brown. Interesting— Food for thought – JDA

    • My thinking, of late, has been that WWWH is visible from an airplane, fly down into the canyon and land at the airstrip “below the HoB” wherever that is!


  24. Thanks to Cynthia for sharing! This new info. Is taking me back to the drawing board! I am now going back to my original way of thinking, before all the blog talk about Lamar and other structures. Games changer? Yes for many.

  25. Per MysteriousWritings interview here: http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

    Searcher’s Question:
    Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits?

    Forrest’s Answer:
    Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information. f

    The treasure is not hidden “in our about” a structure.
    In my opinion, this does not exclude any HoB that is a structure. It just means that the treasure is not hidden “in or about” the structure.

    “About” is another relative term intentionally used by Forrest…because he is clever 🙂

    Cheers and goodnight luck in 2018 everyone!


    • Allen,
      There’s always a WhatIF possibility that, at the very least, hoB is very close to the chest or hidey spot… if not all the clue’s references. If so, Then “about” just became as interesting as “close proximity”

      Another comment fenn made, might imply all the clues could be in a small location; marry the clues [to mean all the clue{s}] to a place [ A Place and not places{s} ] on a map… giving the impression there might not be 9 places but one or two, line of thinking.

      Lets go even farther and use the comments of the first two clues and searchers walking by all the clues and the chest… seems relatively close, right?

      If we look at fenn’s comment about two trips in one afternoon and tells searcher they need to be able to walk several miles to there “solve” [ solve to mean a complete task ] and not so much to each clue as any major distance apart [ such as a 10 miles between wwwh and hoB, idea ]

      Now for the fun of it [ let’s play with some of the ‘second’ and ‘third’ hand information other searcher have stated they have been told ] hoB; not a structure… or no structures for clues. Or another searcher comment, being asked; where is your home? And another that I like [ I just wish there was a way to verify it ]; Folks did quit, the left the poem. [ note again… these are second hand pieces of information ].

      And a Q&A about reverse engineering hoB to wwwh… replied as… if you know hoB why be concern with wwwh [ which could imply hoB is where wwh or tightly connected, idea ]

      So, as we analyze the crap out of the poem, the ATF’s, even second hand info [ whether folks want to believe the accuracy or not of those comments ].
      I agree, as you said, in regards to that Q&A, that there is a slim chance hoB or any clue could have a reference to a structure… But how likely would that be with the ATF comments we know of, and hope, other second info might be close to accurate?

      fenn also said [ paraphrasing for space ] he was thinking down the road… a very long period of time… how many structure will not change or disappear in any period of time? Very, very few I would say.
      Then again, there are man made cairns that are stacked, built, designed, that have lasted 100’s of years. So what kinda of “structure” is fenn relating to? Or what exactly does fenn mean when he talks about details on a map?

      Many like the theories, trains are involve some how or water towers or railroad tracks or look-out tower… some like the idea we need to travel roadways because of a line in the poem NFBTFTW [ including crossing bridges ] IF that line is a clue… and we use those structure to drive from one point to another, as some have claimed is need as part of the “solve” Structure??? If no structure are involved with any clues…

      My point is… we need to look at both side of the topic, and hopefully use the ATF comments as, checks and balances, to come up with a logical reasoning for them that does send the poem into a whirl spin.

      Personally I can’t find a reason for a structure [ especially man made, but not limited by ] that related to any “individual” clue “reference”
      But I can think of how a structure can be involved in an other usage.

      • Good points Seeker.

        I also contemplate what a “structure” is and/or how one could be related to the poem.

        For my general solve….I’ve stated and used “edge of civilization” as my starting point.

        Did you know, even though I am not stating that a structure is my starting point, I can say that a structure is nearby. Does this discount the clue I’ve selected.

        But if you really think about it – technically – my starting point is not structure.

        I agree, a structure can be used along with the poem, if you understand what the word parameters are or the use of the location.

        What is a structure? Are they only man made?

        It we are not to associate the poem with a structure, then can we used a struction just as a reference point or landmark?


        Put in below the home of Brown.

        If one were to read the context of this line, it pretty much states…..you, the seeker, will need to put in below the home of Brown.

        There are no dimensionalized specifics for what or where Brown is located at, so we have to presume that it is near – in some relative way – to WWWH. That is one way to think of the line.

        For me….my home of Brown is a small place north of WWWH and the “put in” location is actually quite enormous…but south of WWWH.



        I can understand why the LGFI cannot get past this point…..because there are so many entry points into my “below the hoB”, thus the difficulty begins.


        • Because you think fenn said little Indy can’t get past…
          That is not the same as, can not get closer than the first two clues.

          This comment is just another comment that might relate to the clues being very close together. ( Other of my thoughts are posted above).

          If I was to say, in regards to fenn’s comments… A mud puddle is an ocean to an ant, or Fenn description of the canyon on his hand… Would those be considered hints to help with the clues… Or are they too subtle , and a hint is more like an answer or more helpful for a clue?

          I really think it’s important to use the exact wording… Changing can not get closer might actually mean the next clues reference is right there or even the chest is very close..or both.

  26. Hi Seeker,
    You said:
    ‘3. And it’s a long shot,
    There might be more than meet the eye with the words chest vs. treasure vs. trove, to think about’.
    Just think, how many contradictions will be resolved if you accept the above.

  27. To me, The HOB, is so vague, it could be anything or nothing. I just count it as covered in my solve. There’s a 50% chance I’m right. IMO

    • Forrest was asked to reveal the location of the home of Brown, but he declined. He said it would lead someone directly to the treasure. So I believe it is a very big clue, and important to the solve.

      Not only that, but since it is referred to as the “home of Brown”, I also believe there is a “Brown” involved as well.

      Based on all I know (which is limited and my opinion), I also believe the blaze is located very close to the “hoB”.

      Here’s a radical idea: Maybe “Brown” is the “blaze”.


      • My belief is like yours Frank. I think it is so close you will pace off 500′ from the blaze (maybe two hundred depending). Darn ideas boiling in my mind. I hope a kid finds it playing king of the rock pile. Lol

  28. Dear Mr. Frank—

    The trouble is as I see it….is that we aren’t given the RULES to solve the poem. You see… IMO Mr. Fenn is not playing by the “common” rules in solving the poem.

    The common (accepted) method is to read each word and sentence, and then advance to the next sentence, and the next..until you get to the end and the treasure. However, Mr. Fenn hasn’t specified the rules, and we are assuming he plays the game like everyone else…

    IMO.. He alludes to an alternative set of rules when he says something like…”the person finding the treasure, will have failed over and over, each time returning back to the poem.”

    To me..that means you might get part way along the path and then to ADVANCE you have to go back to the beginning of the poem, using those words a second time,..or maybe three times.

    That is why I have found at least three blazes, and two homes of Brown along one continous path….

    All is my opinion.


    • Exactly!
      Forrest plays the game different than others.
      Part of the thrill of the chase is figuring out his rules with the his words.
      His puzzle is intriguing and once captured by it, it is hard for us to let go of it.
      We chase theories with our own preconceived ideas, only to hit a wall….
      Fun stuff!

    • Hi Billy

      I cannot totally disagree with this idea of yours. It does kinda make sense in a fairly ominous way. Maybe then, it is even more urgent to discover the correct “word that is key” to see the rules more clearly.

      Fenn spent 15 years on the poem, so that fact alone backs up your theory. So until I march in there and bring out the TC, all ideas are valid and worth investigating. Do you think the “word that is key” is part of this process? I tend to think so, but it is just my opinion.


      • Maybe searching words from the poem in books that F enjoyed is a good idea? Like “journal of a Trapper”. IMO the treasure will be secreted the way trappers hid fur’s and valuables. He treasurers the old ways and sought out those adventures when he was young. No abundance of banks back in the good ole days of 1830’s.

        Food fur thought. 🙂

    • Sparrow and others,…It’s not a fact that the home of Brown is not a man made structure or associated with a man made structure. It’s not a fact unless Forrest says it is and not some hear say from someone even if they are close to him. So keep that in mind. Don’t throw out your solve based on that feeble comment.

  29. I just thought of this after reading Scrapbook 181. I don’t think anyone has proposed this idea before, but I could be wrong.
    In the scrapbook Forrest calls the stone sculpture that was made by Doug Hyde ” Lady Pretty Blanket”. He capitalized the name because he named it.
    What if HOB is a rock formed by God or mother nature and he named it Brown?

    • DPT – An interesting idea. I have had a particular hoB in mind for all of my solves. The recent comment about the hoB not being a structure has raised some doubt in my mind as to whether I have the correct hoB identified.

      Right behind “my” hoB there are some beautiful Brown cliffs – maybe these cliffs are the hoB??? Hummm. I will have to “cogitate” on this a bit. – Thanks for the insight – JDA

      • Yes, JDA. That is interesting. Forrest could have named that cliff Mr. Brown.
        It makes more sense that Forrest puts so much emphasis on the first clue wwh to get it correct. Because if Brown was a popular named entity on a map or a persons grave you could just start there and walk right to the chest. Hmm, this is interesting indeed.

    • Wait! Whaat! Hold the press… How come ‘mother nature’ isn’t capitalized??

      DPT, I think in this case “Lady Pretty Blanket” is not so much a name as it is a title. However, with that said… hoB could represent a title, or importance, of something.

      Rocky for example; the mountains were rocky as a description vs. a name or title to the Rocky Mountains or Rockies.
      A bird is a symbol of my homeland vs. “The Bird” is the symbol of my homeland. “Bird” being capped to represent the name and/or its title reference… The Eagle… home of the Brave.

      So, within the poem and my examples… could hoB relate to a title, yet not the name brown -?- to why it [ brown] was capped?

      Oh! and please respect Mother Nature…

      • Thanks Seeker for pointing that out. Yes, I did forget to capitalize Mother Nature in my hast. And yes she is very respected by me.

        You bring up some good points Seeker on a possible title of HOB. And I like the Rocky mountain analogy!

        I will continue to contemplate this, but as I do it makes logical sense.

      • I like your analysis, but please, why do we give more honor to the thing created then to the creator.

      • Seeker,

        You may be right, but this even creates a bigger quagmire and completely impossible to find the treasure. We can name things and no one else would even know ever, unless you let someone know that you have named something, let’s say a car named Betsy.

        Nowhere that I know of did F speak of something named Brown.

        Just saying

        • Charlie,
          My examples show why it might be capped. Not so much a made up name, but a reason for what it’s interpretation is [ might be ] and why capped.

          Lets try this.. president is not capitalized until it is used in a formal title. If hoB represents a formal title… many if not all would know of it…
          In a poem, a writer has freedom to choose how he wants to present this information… our job is to figure out what it may interpret to, and the word being capitalize might give us a clue to what it might refer to… even though normally it would not be capped. Such as; brown for color or an animal species etc etc. it’s the formal usage of the word that make it so.

          • I have to agree with ya Seeker. It makes sense to me.
            It definitely opens up other possibilities and explains why this is so hard and searchers are still scratching there heads seven years later.

          • I follow you but if it is a title reference then how does one go about determining what it is a title of? It would have to be in the poem right? The title of the poem?

      • What if hoB is even more abstract than the Eagle Seeker mentions above? Could it be a “concept” that “we’ll get” when we see/grasp it? The following is a spurious example, but I am using it to make the point: ‘Brown” is found in a dictionary, so we are to put in below Webster’s Falls. It’s not the best example perhaps, but I think you catch my drift. I suspect you cannot paint the home of Brown brown, because it is not an object, per se. IMHO

        • Swwot;

          You say that hoB can not be painted brown because it is not an object. I very much disagree. It may not be a structure, but who said it is not an object. That is an observation or interpretation or opinion made by you.

          I very much think that hoB IS an object. It can be seen and touched. Whether it is a Brown trout, a Brown bear or even a Brown hill, it can be considered an object – JMO – JDA

          • JDA,

            Sorry, I’m a bit tardy in my reply. Please notice I didn’t say you could not paint objects brown, if that’s what you want to do. I was trying to get the point across that hoB might be an abstract idea that cannot be painted – like a waterfall. I suppose you could put millions of gallons of paint into the river and let it flow over the precipice to “paint it”, but why? The “object” being discussed is more a “place” than a particular piece of the earth, living or dead. As such, this “place” might be spacious and grand in size or scale.

            Others on other threads here on hoD have alluded to the fact that some native Americans refer to the whole sky as “brown”. If this is what Mr. Fenn is referring to, then anywhere we “put in” is going to be below the “home of Brown”. I’m not saying it is or isn’t, just trying to reinforce the idea that some of what is in Mr. Fenn’s poem is less concrete than we, or at the least, I first thought.

            Currently, my hoB thoughts are a little more “down to earth”, but still large enough that I cannot imagine why on earth you would ever want to paint it/them.

            From your reply, I sense your hoB is a bit smaller and more easily covered by some Dutch Boy.

            Just offering some of what I am thinking, so definitely just one fellow’s opinion.

            Good luck to you as you put botg later this searching season!

          • swwot;

            I certainly do not wish to paint hoB. I was just saying that I think that hoB may not be a structure, but I do think that it is an object – period. End of thought – JDA

        • It is a good theory swwot and could explain why people get that have gotten close leave the poem. I have some thoughts on HOB and can use those for them for solves however on site I feel I need to keep on open mind on “below the home of Brown”. This might be something we won’t understand until we are were we need to be.

        • Swott,
          I’ma pickin up what ya puttin down, but…
          we need more reference than just a single word, such as brown, in order to form some kind of idea that might be feasibly logical.

          We need to remember ” the home of”… without that we have no real frame of reference to brown anything. LOL in this case, ‘more abstract’ opens too many doors to travel through.
          I also think to have any of these ideas to work, we have to consider what “I give you title to…” is or might be, when we analyze a thought.
          Sure, sure, title could be a legal reference to ownership, but I highly doubt it. I dare say any court of law would give such an ambiguous line within a poem as legal precedence. [ unless there was a case that is similar, prior and known. ][ known to mean; by the finder who was somehow told this information, by the book or poem for legal reasons]. <<<< again, I highly doubt that.
          The "idea" is title to represent that to which requires capitalization, and more about the "home" than the brown. And might show how one part of the poem relates to another [ whether or not they are meant as hints or clues, but how the poem seemingly would have "all the information to "find" … the chest, the location, the spot…

          Don't get me wrong, I'm not knocking your thought… I personally would need some correlation within the poem to point your idea to be reasonably logical. What in the poem would help your 'more abstract' "Idea"… lol, i really enjoyed that 'more' part…

          • MC,
            Many think the same… I have a very hard time attempting to connect it to a place. [because there are so many places it could relate to]
            Even IF i had a correct WWWH and Canyon down, understood; Not, far, but too far to walk. I have to ask… where along any waterway, we are at, would be specific enough to be consider ‘home’? to be below? Unless all that means is, to be below the river… then we need to think “below” could mean South of the river… but that still doesn’t give us a real place to be at on that river / waterway.

            I think by now, we can rule out fish hatcheries, because of man built holding tanks …etc.
            But we still need a smaller location for home of Brown to be any section of any river or waterway, right?

            If you could explain, by other parts / sections of the poem, how that can be accomplished, I would really like to hear your thoughts.

            For example; My theory from dec 2015 was hoB was Canada, and no place for the meek was [ home of the brave ] the USA side of the Continental Divide.
            To further the thought process… stanza 6’s “brave and in the wood” might refer to in the wood as reference to; in the saddle to reference saddle to a geographical place [ the CD ] and as a mountain passage [[[ example shorten for typing ]]].

            What in the poem helps explain “Brown” as brown trout?

          • Seeker,

            I hope Google Translate does it right.


            I think it will depend on WWWH, CD and TFTW.

            If, between or just after these clues, there exists or has existed something specific with HoB (in this case Brown Trout).

            Below = downstream.


            4th definition

            Who else would name this fish “Brown”, who “LOVES” to fish and spent his life talking about it?? Forrest foi até guia de pesca!!

            Without saying that he may “want” to confuse the researchers.

            **>>I can change my opinion in the future.<<**

            More my ideas:

            For us Forrest said Geography. No story. Not buildings. Things that will exist from here a thousand years.

            In the fourth line of the poem he is talking to someone from a thousand years ago, with someone from today and someone from a thousand years from now.

            He is not talking about new and old "riches", he is talking about new and old "clues".

            It is for us to search the poem for natural things on the clues.

            The same is no said for someone who in a thousand years will find the poem when some of the places have already been renamed ou destroyed, and ele it will have to be "wise." (Then he will study history)

            I'm more attentive to places than to things, to find clues 1 to 4 (a location that presents the first four clues (IMO – WWWH, CD, TFTW and HoB).

            Then "much" online search on local features to find other clues.

            The impression I have is that from this it will take BOTG and a good view of things and a lot of intimacy with the meanings of the poem.

          • I really like your concept of the line; “hint of riches new and old” I have asked the question in the past could someone 100 years ago solve this poem with the book as reference, as we had from the start, and the same for future searchers… with no real need research involved?
            This type of question is really asking if history is involved… But as you implied some research might be needed is something was to change a clue reference in the future… however, the same can be for someone 200 or 300 year back in time. Could an even have happened that change the landscape after that time… {Earth Quake lake in MT, for example}

            This would be a good question to present to fenn about his comment “thinking down the road”… will the clues work for someone from our distant past? [ distant to equate to 100 to 1000 years ago to match 100, 1000 years in the future ].

            Hint of new and old, to give reasoning for what we should be looking at… natural landscape, for the poem to be reasonable work in 500 year from now.

            PS, the google translation seems to be working well enough to get your point across.

          • Seeker,

            Like many on this quest, the whole phrase “put in below the home of Brown” is a real head scratcher. I am still not certain what it is, but my current thinking is that it is larger than a breadbox. 🙂 Seriously, like I shared with JDA just now above in this thread, I do believe it is an “object” in the sense of it being a “place”, but I am not certain it can be dissected out of its environment without losing its meaning. Back to my waterfall illustration. If we take the water away, we simply end up with a ledge. In the same way, if we remove (or paint over) the part of the object that is “brown”, it ceases to be the “home of”. Does that make any sense to you? I hope so.

            Thanx for working with me to help clarify my thoughts and keep me on my toes, so to speak.

    • I was out of town so maybe someone already posted this Fenn quote from On the Trail of Treasure in the Rocky Mountains
      By Mary Capterton Morton (Sunday, February 15, 2015 )

      The author of the article wrote “Curious about the long-term fate of both the chest and the quest, I asked Fenn whether the clues in the poem will also withstand the test of time. “I am guessing the clues will stand for centuries. That was one of my basic premises, but the treasure chest will fall victim to geological phenomena just like everything else. Who can predict earthquakes, floods, mudslides, fires, tornadoes and other factors?” Fenn says. So in FF’s answer to her, he says “I am guessing the CLUES WILL STAND FOR CENTURIES. That was one of my basic premises…” IMO, this is another way of ff saying “it’s (hoB) not associated with a structure.” And he also goes on to say “….the treasure chest will fall victim to geological phenomena…” He differentiates between the CLUES and the chest, acknowledging the clues will withstand the test of time but the chest won’t.

      I’m not trying to get any doubters to believe me; I’m just trying to provide a published statement by Fenn that you all can verify. I hope this helps some of you. I wasn’t trying to create a controversy…

      • Cynthia;

        In the Cheat Sheet, it says that the treasure is not ASSOCIATED with a structure. Can you recall, when Forrest said something about hoB and structure, did he use the word ASSOCIATE or ASSOCIATED in the conversation i.e. hoB is not associated with any structure, or did he just say hoB is not a structure?

        Thanks in advance for the clarification – it COULD make a difference – JDA

        • I could be wrong, JDA, but I thought I read somewhere Cynthia mentioned that f reminded her that he said the treasure wasn’t associated with a structure…as in all of the clues aren’t associated with a structure.

          I could be very wrong with my memory on this one.

          • I hope that Cynthia can verify what you say. For me, having hoB not “associated” with a structure is a LOT different that “hoB is not a structure” – subtle, but important difference. – JDA

          • Hi JDA – If Forrest came out and said that hoB was not related to or a part of any structure, would it make a difference to you? I see the hoB as being something that can last longer than any structure thereby reducing worry about strictures or anything related to a structure. F has indicated that the search could last a long time, and structures we create don’t stand the test of his time.

          • Thanks Loco – both references say “associated” – This is a big help to me. It keeps one hoB in play. This conversation has been very helpful in convincing me that POSSIBLY hoB that I was using as my primary hoB is wrong, and that something that I had considered a “Back-up” – is in-fact a better choice. Changing to the back-up in no way changes my over-all solve – it just might make it a better solve that will stand up under close scrutiny – JDA

        • JDA, When I was telling him about a recent search I’d just done and I was telling him what each of my solutions to the clues were to take me on that particular search, I told him what my wwwh was, then I told him what my take it in the canyon down was, then I told him what my not far but too far to walk was. Then I told him what my hoB was… which was a CCC cabin there at my search spot. At that point he said to me “Don’t you remember I said IT can’t be associated with a structure.” I hadn’t gotten to the rest of the clues yet. I don’t see how there can be any other interpretation to this… However, I don’t have the treasure chest so maybe you know better than me. Also, I think with him saying that to me whether you believe it literally or have a different interpretation, IMO, it means clues 3 thru 9 are fairly close together. I think that is why he could say IT…. IT is not associated with a structure.

          Please everyone don’t create a firestorm again over my comment… this is to answer JDA. I hope it helps him.

          • Thanks much Cynthia. Your words have helped me to come to a decision about my hoB. “Associated” keeps my OLD primary hoB still in play, but I have decided to go to a “Back-up” hoB that I have had as a “Back-up” for a long long time. Goint to this “back-up” in no way changes my basic solve. In fact, going to the back-up may prove to be a better one than my primary.

            My back-up is a natural feature, that will withstand the test of time. My primary was associated with a man made structure, which might not withstand the test of time.

            Thanks for your openness and honesty – You have been a big help JDA

          • JDA,

            I have accepted the fact that HoB is not a structure and have since moved on, actually found a much better one, which if I am right with my WWWH, they are very near to each other. So that is a good thing in my book.

            Unfortunately for me, it looks like I am now in need of looking for a new “no place for the meek” as well. Too bad. I thought I had found a perfect fit and clearly supported (IMO) by TTOTC.

            Thank you very much Cynthia for helping me locate a better Hob!

            By the way, disgruntled searchers writing angry email to Forrest is shameful and I’m sure you feel responsible. But please don’t let it get to you.


          • It’s not a fire storm or fighting or a spitball battle.
            All anyone is doing is trying to figure anything out..lol.. yep some of us buck heads, and normally shake hands at the end.
            So, here’s another head banger… You capitalized IT… was this fenn using an elevated voice, a use of emphasis on your part to make notice of? We’re just attempting to see how this all unfolded.
            I get the feeling the, what is IT, thread is going to explode later…

            IF “it” was emphasized during the conversation, this give more credence to; if you know hoB you’d go right to the chest, line of thinking. Meaning hoB might actually be the location of IT.. the chest.. In theory

            But then, we have the dilemma of clues in the correct order idea. So you can see why [ at least Myself ] we would like to know more…

            So to get the ball rolling for that thread… IT could mean the treasure or IT could relate to the ‘Hint” riches new and old. Which inadvertently could lead us to the word that is key.

            While were on the subject of hoB… wasn’t it said by DG fenn asked her ‘where is your home’… does this sound like hoB is where the chest lays in wait… and possibly all the clues. I mean of we’re investigating this conversation, we might as well investigate them all. right?

          • Seeker, no problem. I capitalized the word IT to emphasize Forrest used the word “It”, not hoB or the word treasure. In a few comments above, someone thought he used the word hoB and someone thought he used the word treasure when talking to me. But it was neither of them. Hope this clarifies your question.

            And the “firestorm” I alluded to isn’t about the comments from searchers on the blogs… it’s the angry emails sent to Forrest.

          • Cynthia,
            Thanks… Just one more question.
            Did he happen to say anything, anything at all, about wwwh? Any little thing, a scant of anything, something, some thing, any new or old thing… I would have settle for the blaze thing, but it seems the chat didn’t get that far..lol.

          • Cynthia – you are a good person to provide factual information about your conversation.

            It’s disappointing that anyone would send an angry email to Forrest (the firestorm you mentioned) . I hope anyone that sends an angry email to ff understands the Chase itself has its own “checks and balances”. Any searcher who has done their research should remember that Forrest once had a bit of an IOU planned as part of the chest. This was to be drawn on his bank. That’s been changed to a better “way” as is mentioned in his new book.

            At this point, anyone sending an angry email to ff shouldn’t make any plans to collect a certain portion of the trove. (a old saying about looking a gift horse in the mouth comes to mind)

            Forrest makes the rules, he made the Chase, and everyone searching should show him respect. It’s seems a little foolish for any searcher to send him an angry email – if they find the chest one day, good luck in collecting that special “remainder” of the balance. IMO

            Covert One

          • What was the original comment ‘the treasure is not associated with a structure’ or the treasure chest is not..? Can we deduct from his answer to Cynthia about hoB that none of the clues are associated with a structure?

            When he says ‘don’t you remember I said IT can’t be…’ seems to mean (nothing) there is associated with a structure.

            Or shall we be more specific as to say that -only- hoB and the chest are NAWAS, meaning they could be the same or in the same place or related to each other somehow but this revelation says nothing about other clues.

      • Hi Cynthia.

        Usage of textual criticism, states the chest is not associated.

        I’d fly with that….IMO – it is the correct way to read the phrase.

        Thanks for drilling down further.

        Good luck to you.

    • Why? Just saying it, does make it so… why is Brown capitalized to “have no relevance” even if recited.

      Ya had to read it at one point… ya had to see a word capitalized at the end of a sentence. So, are we to dismiss this fact, when we simply recite the poem from memory?

      If I say the president of the united states… does it change the fact that it’s capitalized always? the President of the United State.

      I’m not even talking about proper daily academic usages, as much as, the author of the poem deliberately capitalized this word… no relevance?

      • Hi Seeker, Mr. Fenn said a number of times, that searchers should memorize the poem. When you recite the poem to yourself from memory, I suspect that your not seeing any capital letters or punctuation. which makes a difference, but most don’t catch it, because they read the poem.

        • James,
          The very first time anyone was supposed to see the poem was within a book. The poem was never release by fenn in any other fashion… It would be interesting to pose that question to fenn;
          Did you ever consider an auto-book, and recited poem, version or does a searcher need to read/see the poem?
          Just because folks can memorize a poem, not unlike a song, doesn’t mean the deliberate act of making Brown capped is not important. I’m just not following the logic.

          I mean, I like to twist and bend the poem too. but when fenn says read the poem [memorize it, line of thinking] it was meant to be able to recall it while reading the book again, looking for information.

          Ya have to start at the ‘seen’ of the crime… {pun intended}
          In my mind, that B in the poem should be on everyone check list as to, why did he capitalize this word.
          I’ll add… I would not dismiss the capitalizing of any word in the poem… even IF it is used in a poetic fashion.
          Fenn made it very clear… he was the architect, designing, creating, blueprinting the poem, crafting it for 15 years.

          • Hi Seeker, I see your point. I see HOB as a clue, I just can’t do anything with it. So I don’t let it become a distraction.

  30. subscribe – yeah, I’m a little behind. (Watching the pre-game festivities for the Stagg Bowl while I try to catch up. NCAA D3 Football season is almost over.)

  31. Well, it looks like HOB is the last place we are directed to. From there, it’s no place for the meek, isn’t a direction, but the area around the HOB. IMO

    • In my theory, everything in the poem, that comes after the HOB, is located in the area at the HOB.

      • Hi James, may I ask if you hoB is a structure, a forest, a region, an association to an animal, or a name of a oerson or place?


        For my hoB, it can be many things if you technically look at the way the phrase is written.

        I think some people miss the duality within the phrase and thus miss the meaning.

        Shoot…of the list above…my home of Brown can be related to grizzlies, trout, people, and the place, well, it isn’t very small.

        Welcome to Difficulty-land.

        Good luck to you.

        • Hi Tim, I’m just picking apart the poem. My idea is, that whatever the HOB is, that’s the area, to look for the blaze and the chest. And all the rest of the clues in the poem, should be in the same area. I know that’s not what others think, but that’s what I come up with. And if I was going to do another search, I would go with it., hands down. JMO

          • Hi James, Good thinking but I would look below the Home of Brown instead of in the area of it. Maybe 500 yards or so, (sound familiar.)
            Just a suggestion.

    • from
      indicating the point in space at which a journey, motion, or action starts.
      “she began to walk away from him”
      indicating the point in time at which a particular process, event, or activity starts.
      “the show will run from 10 to 2”

      For me, IMO, it feels like it IS a direction separate from HoB

      • Yes, and from below the HOB (maybe 500 yds.) is where there is no place for the meek, where the end is drawing nigh and your dry creek..

        • dry creek?

          “There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
          Just heavy loads and water high.”

          What is the “water high” to you?

          • IMO, there is no water (most of the time) in the creek (deep ravine), that goes up in elevation to a small lake that sometimes spills over into the creek.

            At the entrance of the lake are large boulders that are heavy loads, and if you’ve been wise you wouldn’t travel up this creek. You would find an easier way to this place and in doing so you will find the blaze. The blaze is also above this creek or ravine, so when you get there… look down into the ravine. It’s there in some little hidey spot. The marvel gaze is up at the blaze so don’t stay there very long… just go down in the ravine a get it!

          • HaydukeCC,
            Like ManOwar explication A glacier made lake. { knowledge of geography, might help} Drains into a seasonal creek {summer time hiding of the chest} down the canyon. NFBTFTW may refer to the hike to the lake which means the hike is too far because hoB is below the lake.
            “From there” no paddle means crossing the creek [ now nothing more than a narrow passage eroded by water ] to no place for the meek reference… This might be where the idea of looking at maps as if you’re putting an X on it. Hike from the car to the lake [ but not needed if you know hoB ] because you would pass hoB on the way to the lake and all the other clues as well.

            But we need to nail down the correct lake [ if that is what WWWH referrers to ] in the correct location.
            I ahve wondered why fenn could answer Becky’s Q&A because the blaze is more on a map and we need to know this first… The location of the X, to located it in the field, known of from the poem. The question never asked about maps… and if needed… fen couldn’t answer the question without the missing piece of information.

          • Seeker –

            In the Rocky Mountains all lakes west of the Continental Divide are natural and all lakes east of it are man made reservoirs.


          • Lugnutz
            I think you are incorrect on this one. Yellowstone lake the largest high altitude lake is not west of the continental divide and it along with all the lakes in the Beartooth mountains drain eventually into the Yellowstone River and eventually into the Gulf of Mexico.

          • Hi Frank –

            Believe it or not it moved.
            Originally it drained to the Pacific via the Snake river.

            It’s a general note for you. Natural lakes west of the CD, Reservoirs made by damming east ov the CD.

            Don’t go looking for lakes to stump me just notice as your looking for your treasure.



          • Hi pdenver, I don’t see it in a floodplain, I see the (sometimes) dry creek runs lateral to the river and is rising above the river as it goes back and up to the lake. When is it is running with water it is because the lake is overflowing from the snow and ice melting in the spring. In either case, dry or wet, you don’t go up there. There is another way to get to JHLAWH.

      • Lugnutz,
        I am only hoping to educate you on what is obviously a misunderstanding on your part. There are over 300 lakes in the Beartooth mountains and none are manmade and all drain eventually into the Yellowstone. Look it up.

        • Frank –

          I’m not going to argue about this or try to look at the map or decide whther a lake is alpine or not, etc.

          It’s a general note. If you are standing at the continental divide the lakes to the west are natural and to the east are man made. I provide that as it may be helpful to people. Another way to say this would be.

          HEY if Forrest is including a body of water in this search, IT WILL BE WEST of the CD.

          One of the lakes favored by a prominent old chaser was created by damming in Fenn’s lifetime, and so, probably won’t meet the test of time.


          • Lug,

            If I may interject, you said, ” If you are standing at the continental divide the lakes to the west are natural and to the east are man made.” which is a broad statement and not factual. Since when does the west side of the continental contain only natural lakes? There are natural lakes on either side.

            Just say’n

          • Hi Charlie.

            You wrote:


            If I may interject, you said, ” If you are standing at the continental divide the lakes to the west are natural and to the east are man made.” which is a broad statement and not factual. Since when does the west side of the continental contain only natural lakes? There are natural lakes on either side.

            Just say’n”

            Okay – I can understand this viewpoint. But did you also remember that there are two Continental Divisions?

            If you have then Lug knows it two and is only making a true statement….while not really mentioning another aspect of the truth that would further define the initial meaning that was thought of by you…..thinking only East and West.

            So – while we are all in Geology 101 together:
            – The CD does have man-made lakes to the East and West
            – But does the CD have man-made lakes to the east and west if you are at the North/South Continental division line.

            This is something new to me….I’ve always though the “Great Divide” was through the “center” of the US some where….in the Plains states.


            yet….according to this map…..I’ve now noticed the Great Divide doesn’t even come close to a truer E/W location…..it seems to be much farther west.

            Although…..I did notice they both meet at a northern point in MT.

            Hmmm….good stuff and very interesting…..east or west is where we need to decide now.

            Cheers to you and good luck to us!

          • I totally agree CharlieM – Lugnutz is WRONG on this one. Is Yellowstone Lake man made? There are hundreds of lakes in Wyoming that are ALL glacier fed and natural – not man made. Not sure where you got your info Lug, but you are not correct on this one – I will bet you a bottle of whatever you drink – JDA

          • Residing in the state of the headwaters of the Mighty Mississippi, I’ve always heard the “great divide” is the East or West banks of this river.

  32. Merry Christmas All;

    Well, Santa brought me a fantastic gift for Christmas!

    For those of you that have followed my exploits for the past two years, you know that I first learned of the chase December 23, 2015. I quickly settled on a WWWH in Wyoming. Followed the Canyon Down to my hoB etc. I was happy with my hoB, but after about 6 months, found a back-up very close to my primary hoB.

    Over the next year the importance I placed on the primary and secondary hoB began to balance out.

    Early this month Cynthia posted something that said, essentially, that Forrest had indicated to her that there was no structure associated with hoB. Since my primary hoB had a structure associated with it, I had to fall back to my secondary. My old primary might not have withstood the “Test of Time”, where-as my secondary would.

    My secondary was fair, but I just could not figure out EXACTLY why Forrest would have called it his hoB.

    I developed Theory #1, and it was OK, but not great. I developed Theory #2 that was much better, but had no proof.

    Forrest has said that there are “hints” sprinkled in TTOTC, in the TEXT, that would help with the clues.

    Well, there ARE!!! I found three little words, hidden within one of the stories that explains EXACTLY why Forrest called this land feature his hoB. Sprinkled within this story he even provided conformation that my chosen area was correct.

    WOW – what more could one ask for for Christmas. THANKS Forrest for sprinkling these few words within one of your stories that “Put the bow” on my Christmas package.

    Good luck to all in the coming search year and TRY to STAY SAFE – JDA

    • Glad somebody has it figured out!! .

      I’m stuck on do I walk from the 500ft spot or the 200ft spot. Lol. From 200ft would be safer I guess…..hmmmm.

      Well…..Amazon. Com…..snowshoes.

      No time to drink hot chocolate now.haha

      JDA, you still in Wyoming? Your sounding dangerous!!

      It feels good when things click on a solve…Merry Christmas.

    • P.S. Big boys believe, that’s why we stay at home and wait for the perfect gift from Santa. Am Ever-Grateful old man and FENN-atic – JDA

    • Merry Christmas JDA. Going to be a long winter so I may just take all the “Claus and clues” you have provided and find your search area! 🙂

      • Good luck – Don’t think I left any ” claus or clues” but who knows – Merry Christmas, and happy hunting – JDA

        • Claus = Santa brought you 3 little words in a story from the TTOTC book so I will re-read that at some point to see if the same pop out at me.

          Clues = You have 2 natural blazes followed by a series of man-made ones which exist in a canyon which you enter by way of your singular parking area from which you walk through your numerous trips through the poem…

          You’re right, JDA, probably not any “Claus or clues” in any of that. 🙂

        • JDA,

          I too have what is an excellent hoB, with a little imagination I can see 4 different blazes. I had to discount them because there is no need to be brave, however there is no wood below.

          In the TTOTC a word that could be very well be a blaze. I however discounted because its a structure of sorts because of what F said the TC was not associated to a structure, but I will keep it as a #2. My primary is an excellent blaze as after the hoB the stanza after fits without any effort.

          I would like to think I have very good imagination because I’m an artist at heart. I’m kind of like F, I can see things in the most obscure things, mostly the things I see is not deliberate they just jump out.

          Never the less after finding a hoB the rest became easier and I found one clue that points to some humor relating to one word, “your”, I had to chuckle.

          Spring needs to come very soon, I hope I won’t be disappointed, which ever way it goes I will have fun below the hoB.

          Merry Christmas 🙂

          • What I can see as something being fun for all..,,why we wait out for another season to come…..

            Forrest should make a post that says something like this in the late Spring…..

            “Are you ready? Alright!! Get set!! Go and be safe!”

            Merry HannahKwanzMas!!

    • JDA,

      I found a similiar gift the other day in the poem, but it took me to a different state than yours. I look at it as new beginning, so who knows where I’ll end up.

      Even though it’s not my word that is key, it is very closely related and has unlocked an enormous door, one I peaked through earlier this year but failed to make the connection at that time.

      Good thing we all have plenty of time to ponder our findings over the winter AND recover from the over-eating I’m reasonably certain is plaguing most of us today.

      Happy trails and again, Merry Christmas all.


      • Good luck with your “Special Gift” – hope that it leads you to where you yearn to go – JDA

      • Pinatubocharlie,
        If your ‘special gift’ leads you to different state than Wyoming, then in my opinion you are 100 % closer to the chest than the searchers looking in Wyoming.

          • Hi JDA,
            I have nothing against Wyoming. I never been there but I imagine it must be beautiful out there. In my opinion though, it is the least likely state the chest is in. I did read some of your posts and agree with some of your ideas but not on the state that you are so transfixed on. I wish you all the best though.

        • Hey there LtleIndianGrl,

          I certainly feel like I’m closer now after finding what I believe is clear direction to WWWH and how to interpret the poem. That idea has taken me to what I believe is an outstanding Brown, but I haven’t found the right home yet because I haven’t gone right to the chest yet per his ATF comment. More homework (read, study, think, interpret) in that regard.

          The one thing that has been bugging me for some time now is his ATF to MAKE ALL the lines cross? “The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.” Business Insider, 2/9/2017.

          This infers to me we must choose the correct (precise) points in order to draw those precise lines, which in turn infers possible multiple choices, hence at least 2 points. Because of “all”, my assumption is one line/clue is drawn and they must intersect……..somewhere. But again, we have to MAKE them cross. And IMO, the length those lines can vary a lot.


          • Pinatubocharlie;

            Just my opinion, but I think you are taking this quote far to literally. Forrest talks about putting an “X” on a map, indicating (to me at least) the place where Indulgence is secreted. I do NOT think that the clues (in and of themselves) cause you to place an “X”
            on a map because you actually cross a trail or path or place that you had previously been at. JMO – JDA

          • JDA,

            I hear what you’re saying, but he’s the one who said ALL the lines. I’m just trying to figure out how to draw those lines from each clue. As I think I’ve posted before, I’m seeing 2s, pairs, and twins in what I believe to be hints. That’s how I envision being able to proceed with confidence.

            I can’t draw a line with one point, but I can with 2 points. That’s why I starting to think each clue has two solutions connected by a line, BUT, that line might extend beyond the one or both points.

            Hope that makes some degree of sense though I’m sure you’re not buying what I’m trying to sell so to speak.


            I believe the above answers your question and your though regarding lat/long has crossed my mind several times, especially considering military and civilian applications, but that being said, I’m not that kind of numbers guy, though I certainly believe numbers are involved. More along the lines of what I mentioned above.


          • I’m not talking numbers…..I was talking lines…map lines…long/lat lines on a map….grid lines…etc…no numbers needed, just lines on a map that form an “X”…

          • IMO Pina.

            Two lines intetsecting…one lat and one long will create an “X” on a map.

            Another thought I had is…..what about the land features….maybe they create an “X” at the spot. Like a line of trees and a stream.

            Imagination does have its benefits.


          • Metaphorically speaking, the lines can cross from the poem to the good map—we are supposed to marry the two afterall. Just food for thought.

          • Pinatubocharlie,
            What kinda “lines” are you referring to exactly?
            I know the quote.. I want to know what you think they are.

          • Pina…Good quote from Fenn! Another great example of a well thought out choice of words to keep things interesting. Fenn knows folks are approaching his poem from every imaginable angle(except his) and turning this into a science fair project.
            Imagine the burst if he said something like…the one who dots all their I’s and crosses all their T’s ! AHA ! There’s that IT word again!
            All joking aside…I think that statement could possibly be just saying that when all is said and done…all of the clues are closely related and have direct bearing on each other, and the hidey spot. One clue will lead to the next and so on…and un-mistakenly point right @ ground zero.

          • Ken,

            You very well may be right, but for the moment it’s up to me to prove or disprove that line of thought. That said, based on what I’m finding after that gift last week, my interpretation is the clues are certainly related to one another.

            Ground zero – that took me back to a deep rabbit hole I ventured into last Spring, taking me to a great WWWH, a possible HoB, & a decent “in the wood”. I just couldn’t make it flow like the current path I’m on.

            Take care……….Pinatubocharlie

          • Pina;

            Because I see the poem as a circle, I go through it once – point-to-point. I can see these points on a map. I go through the poem once, and do not find indulgence.
            I start again, but from where I ended, and create a NEW map – point-to point. So, my approach is different than yours. I do not see two parallel “trails” if you will, with some individual legs being longer than the other.

            Good luck with your approach. Who knows? It just might be the approach that works – JDA

          • Actually JDA, I’m not “all in” as they say regarding my 2 point line theory. I recognize I very well could be wrong, but as I said just a bit ago, I need to convince myself one way or the other.

            So if I fail in this approach, then my backup will be very similiar, if not identical to yours. My thought being one level is new riches and the other is old riches.

            For the time being, my theory is old and new are points on a line simply because he said make them all cross.

            Take care my friend. Pinatubocharlie

            P.S. – my son bought a racing drone similiar to the one used in that YouTube link I posted of the guy flying in and around a moving freight train. He’s having a blast flying it, but not to the level in that video.

          • Pinatubocharlie,
            In my solution, the lines cross in two places. The first crossing forms an X, but I don’t think the chest is in this spot. I believe that the correct poem solution leads to a second crossing (perpendicular this time) and this is where the chest is located. In my opinion this is the solution to the last clue ‘brave and in the wood’.

          • Pinatubocharlie;

            If the peg doesn’t fit. find a hole where it will fit, or start whittling 🙂 Just joshin’ Ya’

            Keep pluggin’ away my friend. JDA

            P.S.Glad you son is having so much fun. I wish I had the bucks and the gumption to buy one and teach myself how to fly it – Oh well – such is life – JD

          • I prefer a smooth factory fit as I was never very good at whittling, plus I wood cut myself. Oh, maybe that’s what those gloves he tells us to bring are for.



    • Go get ‘er JDA, Thanks for this post, and all all the others. I’m on pins and needles waiting for you to sculpt those 3 little words out of Fenn’s granite walls and show us what you see there.

      • Thanks OS2. With this new find, I am SOOOO excited. I can hardly wait for spring or early summer. 🙂 JDA

        • JDA, Stay calm, stay healthy, and confide to a trusted family member just in case. The right two people can keep a secret, or, keep a journal.

          • My search team, and my son in Virginia know my secrets – just in case. With a wee bit of luck someone in this team will find her – hope it is all of us. What a thrill for all! JDA

            Thanks for the reminder though – JDA

    • I would consider the following from JDA a clue and not a hint…I found three little words, hidden within one of the stories that explains EXACTLY why Forrest called this land feature his hoB.

      Just an idea from using f’s definition of what a clue does for us which is gets us closer to the tc.

      If f explained exactly why he called JDA’s land feature (if JDA’s hoB is correct) his hoB that obviously gets one closer to the tc than the correct wwwh and canyon down. So, I wouldn’t consider it a hint.

      • FD;

        From wwwh I took the canyon down, (Clue #1) NFBTFTW. (Clue #2)
        The next “clue” for me was to find the hoB. (Clue #3)
        I found it from the poem, because of the distance traveled (NFBTFTW) I just did not know why Forrest had called this land feature his hoB. The “Hint” I found told me the “WHY” Forrest called this land feature “HIS” hoB – So, for me it was a “Hint” (which got me closer to understanding the “Clue” of hoB. I hope that this explains my thinking – JDA

        • Also, the fact that I found it in TTOTC made it a “Hint”, and not a “Clue” – The nine “Clues” are in the poem, the “Hints” are in the poem and also sprinkled in TTOTC (and TFTW and OUAW and other postings by Forrest such as SB’s etc.) NO “CLUES” outside of the poem – so says Forrest – JDA

          • JDA, I’m going off of f’s definition of a clue, not where one is found. I would say that f’s definition of a clue can’t change. So that means the definition pertains to TTOTC book too.

            My write up explains why I think that.

          • FD;
            Please quote “Forrest’s definition of a clue” – I am not aware of such a definition. Thanks. Could you also provide the source – Thanks again – JDA

          • Hi JDA:

            From Mysterious Writings (May 2015):

            “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that. f”

          • FD;

            From the cheat sheet:
            Fenn has said:
            ♦ There are nine clues in the poem.
            Q: Are there clues in the TTOTC book? “Yes, because the poem is in the book.”
            All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search.”

            But this one MAY support your argument:
            Q: Are there clues in the TFTW book? “Yes, because the map is in the book.”

            In this quote, he uses Clues and hints Interchangeably – so. I ghuess you COULD be right???

            “There are nine CLUES in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for CLUES or HINTS, that are in the book that will help you follow the Clues. You can find the chest with just the CLUES, but there are HINTS IN THE BOOK that will help you with the CLUES.” f

            I think I will stick with the 9 CLUES in the poem, and that hints found elsewhere (including in the poem) that will help me with the CLUES. JMO – JDA

          • Don’t forget this one, if we can believe Douglas Preston..”The final clue, he said, would be where they found his car: in the parking lot of the Denver Museum of Nature and Science….” From the into to OUAW.

          • Thanks, Zap, for the definitions.

            If I discovered hidden within one of the stories something that explains EXACTLY why Forrest called a land feature a clue like canyon down, hoB, meek place, my creek or whatever else one considers to be a clue location after wwwh then I’d say it’s the same problem. It’s a clue cause it got you closer to the tc than the first clue.

            I don’t think searchers have put a lot of thought into that dilemma and found a logical path to go foward with.

          • From all of the responses, it is obvious that there is no consensus as to what is a clue, and what is a hint – even to Forrest. He seems to intermix the two terms pretty frequently. Maybe that is why we are all still confused. I KNOW what my definition is, I can only hope that it is the same as the one Forrest used when creating the poem.

            When asked, Forrest said something to the effect that once finished, he counted the clues, and there were nine. He didn’t plan it that way, that is just how it turned out. Happy Hunting all – JDA

          • Maybe you all might benefit from looking up the actual definitions, and not just Forrest’s interpretation of what a clue of hint does.

          • The Wanderer;

            I agree that looking up the definitions of words is valuable, but what good is looking up the definitions when Forrest intermixes them? – as in:
            Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for CLUES or HINTS, that are in the book that will help you follow the Clues.

            Definitions don’t help here do they?
            noun: clue; plural noun: clues

            a piece of evidence or information used in the detection of a crime or solving of a mystery.
            noun: hint; plural noun: hints

            a slight or indirect indication or suggestion.

            MOST of the time I would agree – Now, is that a clue, a hint, or what? JDA

          • Well, I’d suggest one take the route of using f’s latest words on the topic for what is a clue and what a hint is. They obviously aren’t the same thing.

          • FD;
            Why be so secretive? Why not just quote what he said? I have no idea what his most recent definition is. JDA

          • JDA, you’re assuming that I know his latest words on the topic of the definition of a clue. I don’t. I assume he always gives the same definition that Zap provided.

            I think that’s a different thing than when f was interchanging the words hints and clues in some of the quotes you brought up. I’d think he’s cleaned that up in later versions to say there’s hints in the book that help with the clues. But the definition of a clue has never changed. That’s why I suggest some look further into the matter and figure it out for themselves. But to say that since you found something in the book doesn’t make it hint because you found it there. You have to go by the definition of a clue and hint.

          • FD;

            Not trying to be nit-picking but if you do not know what the latest definition given by Forrest is – why did you say. “Well, I’d suggest one take the route of USING FORRECT’S LATEST WORDS ON THE TOPIC for what is a clue and what a hint is. They obviously aren’t the same thing. Sure sounded to me like you knew what his latest words were – Just sayin’ JDA

          • JDA, I said that for many reasons. I think f has been consistent in defining what a clue is and what a hint is. I think that is different than the point you brought up which is f has intermingled using those two terms in some of his statements. I also gave that advise cause it has worked on other topics in the Chase. The latest words from f on topics like mountains north of Santa Fe versus Rocky Mountains is an example. Narrowing down to the 4 states left is an example. There’s been plenty of ATF statements from f that add value and are more pertinent than the original information.

            It makes sense for each to use all the information how they want best. So if others don’t agree with the theory I brought up they can still look for whatever they think the last words f has spoken on a subject.

            One other point is I can recall f often say I never said that to things that searchers have attributed to him. I think f speaks in specific details that many, including me, don’t always pick up on.

        • JDA – I recall your ‘too far to walk’ distance was more than 5 miles. Is that still so?

          I hope I remembered that correctly JDA.

          • The preface to “Too Far to Walk”. Forrest describes a float down the Madison River, a float of about 10 miles, and he describes this as now “Too Far to Walk”.
            Yes, my hoB is almost exactly 10 miles down a canyon from my WWWH. – JDA

        • Hi JDA…you wrote…

          From wwwh I took the canyon down, (Clue #1) NFBTFTW.

          We already know clue #1 is WWWH.

          are you saying WWWH is only a hint?

          Or are you saying WWWH it is a clue, but not the first one? Which one?

          Or are you saying WWWH is both a clue and a hint?

          Or is WWWH neither?

          Not many choices to determine, huh?

          Interesting….because after reading your post, I figured you seem to begin with it, but don’t consider it to be clue #1. It appears you think it is a hint. How?

          • Hi JDA ,

            I dont post much any longer about the Chase I have my own sight on some things and
            decided not to tell what I think .
            But since I have been on a word study of the poem , may I interject
            this presumption .
            late Middle English: variant of clew. The original sense was ‘a ball of thread’; hence one used to guide a person out of a labyrinth (literally or figuratively). Sense 1 of the noun dates from the early 17th century.

            So yes the words can be seen by all as well as the definitions.

            But it to me is not the definitions
            but the order of them .

            And not changing the poem or moving words around – or even finding words that mean the same .
            I like that f said ” what dose it matter what the words mean if the person understands them .

            First thing is; how would the person understand the words
            if no one knows how they are being used? And why would no one else understand them .

            This is a rhetorical question , because I think I can answer them a bit.

            I had told many searchers I tracked f to Denver and he disappears there.

            I said that years ago, and still I have not found the chest.

            Over 100 trips in all kinds of country .

            And my thought of that is :
            How would he hide it in the mountains and protect it from the elements.

            Any ways Merry Christmas to everyone . Hope you have a wonderful New Years .


          • Nope – I am saying that “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down,” = my clue #1.

            NTFBTFTW = my clue #2

            And, “Put in below the home of Brown. = my Clue #3

            All of the clues are found in stanza’s
            2, 3 and 4.

            Hints are found in stanzas 5. 6 and 1. Other hints are found in TTOTC, TFTW and OUAW plus other Forrest posts such as SB’a etc.

            Clearer I hope – JDA


  33. Last night, I thought we were talking on this thread about Lander Wyoming? And how the Original name of Lander was Brown. Does anyone know where this thread is or went?

  34. This is all in my humble opinion – IMHO

    The home of Brown is a distinct thing, and so is Brown.

    As far as I know, I am the only one saying this. Consider the words carefully. He refers to “the home of Brown”. I would love to hear the logic behind a solution for this clue (if it is a clue) which defines it as a separate item while “Brown” is not even considered.

    As I said, this is my opinion and not established fact. What is “Brown” if the “home of Brown” can be identified? I am very curious if anyone will respond at all.


    • Franklin: for my solution, sure, home of Brown is something specific, as is Brown. But Brown by itself is not a workable clue, nor is home. You need both.

    • Franklin;

      What I think you are suggesting is that “Home” is a clue, and that “Brown” is not even considered, or in other words – useless.

      I think, and that is just my opinion, that this logic is flawed in two respects.
      1) If “Home” is the clue, it brings to mind a structure, which Forrest has said that “hoB” is not associated with a structure. Could a beaver dam or beaver “home” be your “Home”? If it is, is that a structure? Not made by man, but still built, so I would say it is disqualified.

      Home can also mean something like birthplace. “Put in below “somethings” birthplace or place someone or something grew up. What is that “Something”? “Brown defines what that “something is, and you are about to throw it away.

      2) “Brown” is not even considered. Why would Forrest have put it in the poem, and even brought attention to it by capitalizing it if it were not important to the correct solve? I would say, just my opinion, that “Brown” is VERY important. I personally would be VERY hesitant to discard it. JMO – JDA

        • JDA,

          When I said “not even considered” I meant on this blog by most of the posters. I do not see much reference to “Brown” being a separate and distinct thing (or entity). Just about everyone thinks “Brown” is a person somehow. I do not see it as a person at all. However, as you said, it is important and should not be discarded. I agree it is very important. All of this is just my opinion, but I do not believe “Brown” is a person.


        • Franklin: if you mean Brown is a specific historical figure with that last name, I agree: pretty bad idea. Too blatant, and also dependent on information that I would classify as “special knowledge” for all the Browns I see searchers post on blogs. Two strikes.

          • Thanks for that and I agree. In addition to the knowledge being specialized, it is pure speculation to think the same knowledge would be available in 1,000 years, or even 500 years. Somehow this thing “Brown” must be something that can still be identified a long time from now. Again, my opinion, but I also do not believe “Brown” refers to a lake or river full of German Brown Trout. Too many environmental changes over time for that explanation. Imagination and resolve, a good map and/or GE will be sufficient.

          • Franklin;

            You say: “Somehow this thing “Brown” must be something that can still be identified a long time from now.

            I agree

            Again, my opinion, but I also do not believe “Brown” refers to a lake or river full of German Brown Trout.

            I agree.

            Too many environmental changes over time for that explanation.

            I agree

            Imagination and resolve, a good map and/or GE will be sufficient.

            Not quite – Add a very special “Hint” in TTOTC and I will agree – JMO – JDA

          • Yep, Franklin, the whole brown trout idea is quite peculiar, but I know many searchers go with it, despite the capitalization.

          • Not to mention that in baseball home equals a plate that pitchers, batters, and umpires use to determine balls and strikes (which changes depending on the height of the batter). Too bad there might be a stadium around a solve like this,

        • I have to admit that my first solve location at the Toltec Gorge relied on the Brown Trout idea but after reviewing this over and over again and in light of the previous clues in Stanza #2; eventually I came to understand that Brown Trout was NOT the correct interpretation for figuring out “home of Brown.”

          I will share however that hoB has two correct interpretations, one literal and one figurative.

          The Redneck with 12 kids and a pickup truck could definitely figure out the one interpretation and it would be sufficient to aid them in correctly finding the treasures general location…


          • PS and yes the correct interpretation for “home of Brown” will most likely exist for hundreds of years into the future – both the literal and figurative interpretations should stand the test of time…

            When Forrest discusses the idea that geography could impact the accuracy of his clues in a 1000 years; he is referring most specifically to creeks and warm waters. These are geographical features most effected in the millennial time frame…


      • In the poem, I think “home “ refers the location where something or someone lives. The implication being that it or they currently live at the location, as opposed to a location where it or they used to live. In this case, we are looking for the “home of Brown”. The question is, why is Brown capitalized?

        • Tom B

          Yes that is exactly correct. The 2 things, home of Brown, and Brown, both are there currently. It is not about a past person named Brown – IMHO

        • I believe that “Brown” is or was a person’s name, hence the capitalization. I do not
          believe “Brown” refers to a crayon color
          or trout or bears or cliffs or stream temper-
          atures or mineral deposits etc. etc.

          Here is my reasoning: whenever anyone
          has mentioned to FF about him BURYING
          the treasure he has always corrected them
          to say he HID it (it may or may not be buried.)

          In a 4/2/2013 interview (tarryscant.com) a
          reporter Jennifer London said,
          “… there are references to water, there is
          a reference to Brown’s house (sic). Who’s

          Fenn: “There’s references to wood.”

          London: “But you didn’t answer my question,
          who is Brown?”

          Fenn: “Well, that’s for you to find. If I told
          you that, you’d go right to the chest.”

          Fenn did not disabuse her of her premise
          that “Brown” is a “who” i.e., a person. He
          could have said something like, “I never
          said “Brown” is a person,” or ” what makes
          you think that “Brown” is a person?” etc.
          Instead, FF said, “Well, that’s for you to
          find” (out) (who is Brown?)

          I interpret this to mean that FF agreed with
          her assumption that “Brown” is a person’s
          name. Your interpretation may differ.
          Happy trails.


          • D. Crockett: too big a clue for Forrest to disabuse the woman of the notion that Brown is a person, living or dead. You need to ask yourself how “Brown” can refer to a specific person (dead or alive) and yet have the knowledge of that individual’s existence be common knowledge. Awfully short list, and in my opinion none of them relevant.

          • Zap,

            Perhaps I am misunderstanding your reference to “common knowledge”, but if you are saying Brown must be exactly that, then I guess I have to disagree, because what may be common to you may not be to someone else for many reasons. Some that come to mind are age, heritage, education, ethnicity, religious, profession, etc. and I’m not talking about specialized knowledge.

            Good examples include, his girls not knowing who Clark Gable was, or that he didn’t know what being “canned” meant when a boy. Though I see them all the time, I didn’t know what a kippa was until I looked up the word one day because I wanted to know what it meant. I had enough sense to enlighten myself, but I would not call it common sense.


          • D. Crockett,
            Sure, Brown could be a person, or a place or a thing. Or all three…

            We have many things to think about;
            ~If you knew hoB you’d go right to the chest… But…
            ~You don’t have anything without the first clue… then again…
            ~Why would we be concern about wwwh if we knew what hoB is… and yet we have been told…
            ~ You can’t find the blaze without knowing the first clue, wwwh, right?

            fenn’s never corrected interviewers who stated “house of brown” or “Brown house”… why would he correct them if they thought Brown was a person? or a building? or a thing?

            The interesting thing is fenn mentioning the reference to “wood.”
            Was that a hint -?- to what Brown refers to? Or an attempt to blow off the question about a clue?

            If we knew what hoB is… why wouldn’t wwwh be just as or more important of a clue? Seems like, by those two comments hoB is more important than wwwh, right?

            YET… fenn repeats, Looking for later clues is a waste of time… we need to dwell on wwwh more, we need to nail that clue down… right?

            However, we have another conundrum… all the clues can be solved at home? Yes, in theory, but not in practice…
            So it seems we shouldn’t need any of the first clues if we can figure out [lets say] 5 thru 9, or even the last clue.
            Well, except fenn said he followed the clues to hid the chest, hmmm.

            Hold the press! What? how can that be?
            Where does the “Planning” and “Observation” fenn tells us we need to do in order to solve the poem’s clues??? AND why the heck, when folks are on site with deciphered clues, they don’t know what it is their looking at…?… as they walk by all the clues and the location of the chest.

            I find it interesting with all of our chit chats about what we think, this or that is… and not much is mentioned about why; “planning and observation” is as much a need as; “thinking and analyzing” and lets not forget “imagination”
            LOL when do we use that? deciphering clues, or in the field, or looking at the “right map” with all the details?

            There has to be common ground to deciphering a representation to a clues is [ such as the many wwwh or canyons, or places the meek wouldn’t go or the billions of Blazes, etc.] And knowing what we see in the field… that doesn’t see so obvious.

            But… it seems more apparent as the years go one, having a representation of a clue reference is not enough. It would seem we need to actually decipher the “physical place” itself. Which can only be done on site, with a correct ‘complete’ solution, prior to going on site, and then have a ‘completed’ solve by observing what exactly it is we see from our properly deciphered clues.

            So, IF hoB is a person… how does that work?
            Birth place, place of death, buried?
            Mr. Brown’s home??
            Which doesn’t seem likely, per Cynthia comment of her recalling fenn implied ~ hoB can’t be a structure…

            What can home of Brown refer to that “several” “more than several” “many searchers” walk right by and not know?… lol… does size matter in regards to hoB?

            Just because fenn didn’t correct an interviewer about “who” or Who’s “house” doesn’t call out to me that it must be a person… cuz we still need to know what that clue ‘looks like’ in the field, right?

            End of commentary….

          • Who is not observing and planning.

            * in his best Gary Coleman voice”

            “What chu talkin’ ’bout Seeker?”


          • Tim,
            What is your Planning and what are you observing?
            Seem to me, anyone that has deciphered, solved, indicated the correct clues didn’t know or possible even seen it the way fenn might.
            It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to read the many quotes to get the gist that there is more to a clue than just picking out what it refers to.

            I mean, we have many ideas floating around about wwwh as a river or rivers… and if so, what is it about that river or those rivers folks don’t know about? or any other idea of wwwh.

            How can a person be a clue reference [ such as hoB ], and still be a physical location, that searchers seem to walk right by? It as to be a physical location, because if we knew it… we’d go right to the chest. right?

            I mean, if we’re supposed to be certain of the path beforehand … Who really is, planning or observing anything?? So, what are your plans and how do you observe the clues?

            Is it just going to the location an saying… Ah ha… that’s warm waters and there’s a big hole… yep there’s hob and that scary place must be home of Mr. Meek. so I just need to follow this little brook and find fenn’s initials on a rock… That’s not observing… that’s accepting what you see and not what is.

          • Hi Seeker…thanks for the response and questions.

            You wrote:
            “what are your plans and how do you observe the clues?”

            I plan an expedition. I make sure I am prepared for that expedition. Trust me…I need to plan…..

            I observe what has been said, what is being said, how things are stated, why things are stated or spoken, and then discern the relevance of any is or can be associated to the words through textual criticism.

            So yes, there are variables….many.

            I have found a pattern. Is it accurate? Hmmm….good question. I have proven much of it with facts, so the coincidence side of things are really irrelevantbat this point.

            But….it fits well and I will doubt that no one will be able to solve all the clues without observing first, then planning secondly. I also doubt the beginning will be found unless it is told of or found by luck, like I think.

            I’ve done lots of research Seeker…..research of the clues. They are playing out….they tell me the things I need,…those directions needed in order to find the TC location.

            “Everything you need is in the poem.” f

            But that really isn’t completely true….almost true…..because we do need to use other things to solve the poem’s meaning.

            But…..it is true, because all the “nouns” are important, so they help with the decipering.

            Plan to decipher the meaning of the poem and then observe through textual criticism the results of the answer you plan out.

            Duality is truly evident in the deciphering. Use duality in your meanings.

            Good luck.

          • Hi PinatuboCharlie: with respect to home of Brown, and indeed all of the clues, what I’m suggesting is that I don’t think anyone needs to go to the library or search online for information (whether general or specialized) in order to solve the poem. Between the poem, the proper map(s), and some of the well-known (mostly exclusionary) hints from Forrest, the searcher in my opinion has all the information they need to put the pieces together.

          • But Zap,

            He said “you can’t ignore any of the nouns in that poem.”. I am not a walking dictionary and therefore forced to words, their origin, prior usage back in the day, etc.

            And I’ve learned a lot and honestly believe we are LLC being taken to school by a master teacher. He learned from his father well.


          • Zap –

            Haven’t you done extensive research yourself?

            How do you know now that you did or didn’t know what you now know when you started to chase?

            How can you be certain?


          • Zap,

            I understand your point, but my position remains unchanged. That background and personal experiences in life influence perception and interpretation.


          • Hi PC — clearly many searchers believe that potentially unusual or obscure uses of words play a part in deciphering the poem; I’m just not one of them. I firmly believe the poem is straightforward and solvable by the redneck in Texas or the little girl in India for whom English is a second language. I think people get attracted to the idea that there is some off-the-wall idiomatic word usage going on that we have to figure out because Forrest says he looked up words and their meanings when crafting his poem. But I suggest that Forrest’s reasons for doing so may have had nothing to do with increasing the difficulty of the poem.

          • Gotta say it, when did f say hoB was a clue? Zap, you keep saying it’s a clue, where did f say or confirm this?
            Since we are talking Brown and structures and wood, maybe f is just pointing out Brown rot. Maybe the chest is hidden under a tree with Brown rot, and that line is in future tense. It wouldn’t be a clue, just an observation. To say that line is a clue is force fitting a solve. It is too general of a comment to actually be solved. hoB is not a clue. If you could go right to the chest if you knew hoB, and it is only the supposed 3rd or 4th clue, why would you need clues 5-9? Place names change, people’s names, lol, forget it, if hoB is so tightly wound with the chest, how can any of that even be considered?

            Seeker, The interesting thing is fenn mentioning the reference to “wood.”
            Was that a hint -?- to what Brown refers to? Or an attempt to blow off the question about a clue? Right….
            If you knew hoB you’d go right to the chest. Right…
            How could hoB be a clue when it is right at the chest? Being that it is the 8th line, don’t think the chase is over at the 8th line of the poem.

          • Hi charlie: Forrest has never explicitly said “home of Brown” is a clue, but he has certainly suggested it:

            Female interviewer: “You say begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down. Not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown. That seems like a couple of clues to me.”

            Forrest: “That sounds like three or four to me.”

            Since we know WWWH is a clue, where are the other two or three clues in that stanza she quoted, in your opinion?

            Brown is the only capitalized word in the poem that doesn’t begin a line or require capitalization like “I” or “I’ve.” So I would tend to think that if it’s *not* a clue, I would have to classify it as a red herring, because any normal person would assume it’s a clue due to that capitalization.

          • Hi Lugnutz: sure, I’ve done my share of research (much of which was totally unnecessary — like the thousand-plus hours of topo map grid searching through 3 out of 4 states). I even typed in all of TTOTC on my computer so that I would have a searchable soft copy.

            But nearly all of my research over the last year has been cataloging Forrest’s hints (or at least what I believe are his hints). At this point, it’s mostly for my amusement and a bit of OCD thoroughness. Those hints didn’t help me one bit in coming up with my solution(s). But they did make me feel good about the solution(s) I generated.

            So one of things I do wonder about is whether a searcher (with the correct solution) would have the necessary confidence in it to commit time and $$ toward a BOTG search if they had only the poem, maps, and Forrest’s ATF comments. Personally, I lean toward “no.” I know Forrest has said you don’t need the books, but without all the book hints I don’t know whether I’d pull the trigger.

          • Zap –

            I am asking if you can tell what is common vs specialized knowledge in your own chase. Specifically if you no longer espouse of your research, are you confident that none of what you learned was necessary?


          • Hi Lugnutz: I am confident no specialized knowledge went into my solution. All the answers to the clues were staring me in the face on the map. I just had to think in the right way.

            Of course I unavoidably learned all kinds of wonderful new things in the last 2 1/2 years, like the difference between “For Whom the Bell Tolls” and “A Farewell to Arms,” Tony Bennett song lyrics, Invictus, T. S. Eliot’s Little Gidding, quotes that Einstein did and did not say, that Hopalong Cassidy wore a black hat and not a white one, a Babylonian fishing saying, and so on. But none of those things gave me WWWH.

            What I can’t be sure of is whether just reading Forrest’s books and Scrapbooks gave me subconscious insights into how the solution should unfold. But I never went to a dictionary, or read up on Lewis & Clark or Joseph Meek or Captain Jim Bridger or Molly Brown.

          • Exactly Zap, it’s too easy. Any normal person would think it’s a clue. Any normal person would think you “put in” somewhere. Not too many are going to think that line is written in the future tense. Think about it, I know you will, before you rebut,
            “If you knew hoB you’d go right to the chest”.
            They are tied together, but hoB is in the 8th line of the poem.
            “Female interviewer: “You say begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down. Not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown. That seems like a couple of clues to me.”
            Forrest: “That sounds like three or four to me.”

            Let’s say 3, this makes hoB the 3rd clue, Congrats, you are right at the chest, nothing more to do…

            Let’s say 4. How is f not sure if someone has it correct or not? And again, congrats, game over.

            I do not believe we should try to distinguish what a clue is. We cannot read f’s mind, if we designate hoB as a clue, we force it to a solve. Until f says it is a clue, we have to think it’s not. If you are at the chest at hoB, then what is drawing nigh? why do we go to a place that is no place for the meek? Why have we found the blaze?
            Brown Rot is a good example, I’m not saying that it is it, but it puts reading that line into future tense more plausible. He never said that hoB would throw off a searcher, with all the possibilities it could be, it’s just too generalized to be a clue at that junction of your path. People find some wwh near a canyon then look for something that would constitute Brown. That is just not the way to go about it.

          • Hi charlie: the flaw in your logic is that you think the chest and home of Brown are co-located, or so close to one another that if you were at Forrest’s home of Brown, you couldn’t help but find the chest. But you are basing this “fact” on a single flippant response by Forrest to a persistent reporter’s questioning, which I think is a mistake. If instead she had asked multiple times, “But where do warm waters halt?” he could have said the same thing — if I told you that you’d go right to the chest. On the scale of the Rockies, that’s essentially a true statement: he’d be putting you practically on top of it. So of course he isn’t going to answer those sorts of questions.

          • Zap, I’m using that comment as support, not basing it on it. I’m saying that the 8th line could be read in the future tense, like he’s in the canyon, looks out far ahead, and knows it’s put in below the hoB. Yes, the chest is close to the hoB. That is why it is not a clue. My logic is right in line with his comment. YOUR flaw in YOUR logic is thinking hoB is a clue. Take the ATF comment away, doesn’t matter, the fact is we don’t know hoB is a clue. You are now just picking things he is saying to fit your solve. If it doesn’t fit, then he must mean something else, right? F guards what he says very well, he said they basically co-exist, are you going to next tell me I’ve twisted it or read it wrong? It is what it is. There is nothing in the poem that describes the hoB. If you are walking at this point, the term “put in” would not mean to put some boat in the water, your walking, how would knowing something you are going to walk by help in getting you closer to the chest? The thing is, you cannot know it is a clue, sorry Zap, however you spin it, you only have line 5 and the blaze as clues. You can’t know you have the clues until you have the chest, so you cannot leave your house confident unless you come to the realization that you are wasting your time trying to figure the clues. If from here on out you said you were trying to solve the poem, I’d listen, but to say you have a solve because you solved all the clues, lol, how is that possible?
            My logic isn’t flawed here Zap, forgetting the clues and solving the poem is the best advise. Using a map before solving the poem will get you into a rabbit hole, trying to force a path from what the poem says at it’s face. His map comment was much later in the chase, all you need is the poem.
            But logically, to you, hoB is clue 3 or 4. Whichever, doesn’t matter. If 3, why can’t lil Indi get to it? Or is that just another “flippant” comment meant to mean nothing? If 4, why doesn’t f know if someone has it correct or not? From what I gather from reading that stanza, he has something, he’s taking that something into the canyon, and he’s putting it somewhere. You have it as he has something, takes it in the canyon, and then you have to put in somewhere to find what you still have with you. “it” is put in below the hoB. Not “you”. Or it would say, you put in below the hoB. What is being put below the hoB? “it” is. Not the searcher. Take “it” in the canyon down, not take “you” in the canyon down. So, if it is not entailing you, the searcher, to do something, then it is describing what has already been done. “it” was put in below the hoB.

          • Charlie: I’m afraid our thinking is so diametrically (diabolically in Fenn-speak) opposed that I think a mutual appreciation of each other’s ideas is probably impossible. Let me illustrate by some of our points of 100% disagreement:

            “Yes, the chest is close to the hoB. That is why it is not a clue.”

            In my opinion, solving home of Brown does not give you the treasure chest’s location. Not even close. Home of Brown is unquestionably a clue in my opinion, and if you were to take a poll on Dal’s website, I’m betting 90% or more of respondents would agree with me.

            “YOUR flaw in YOUR logic is thinking hoB is a clue.”

            As far as I’m concerned, it’s a clue. And pretty much obviously so, via multiple lines of evidence.

            “There is nothing in the poem that describes the hoB.”

            So? Why should there be? There’s nothing in the poem that describes where warm waters halt. Do you think the answers to the clues are supposed to be in the poem?

            “If you are walking at this point, the term “put in” would not mean to put some boat in the water, your walking, how would knowing something you are going to walk by help in getting you closer to the chest?”

            I ain’t walking prior to home of Brown, not that that is terribly relevant.

            “If from here on out you said you were trying to solve the poem, I’d listen…”

            You mean solve the poem on site? That ain’t happening. If I can’t solve it end-to-end from home, I don’t leave home.

            “… but to say you have a solve because you solved all the clues, lol, how is that possible?”

            I throw it back to you: how do you explain Forrest’s answer to the question of whether it is possible to solve all the clues from home?

            “But logically, to you, hoB is clue 3 or 4. Whichever, doesn’t matter.”

            Yes, it’s one of those.

            “If 3, why can’t lil Indi get to it?”

            Jeez, really? Because she has a crappy map that doesn’t show the answer to the third clue, that’s why. We’ve been over this before. Little Indy bores me.

            “From what I gather from reading that stanza, he has something, he’s taking that something into the canyon, and he’s putting it somewhere.”

            That is a bizarre reading of the poem.

            “You have it as he has something…”

            Stop right there. NO. That’s not what I believe he’s saying at all.

            “… takes it in the canyon, and then you have to put in somewhere to find what you still have with you.”

            So far off as to be unworthy of response. As I started, our ideas are so mutually exclusive as to apparently prevent any sort of sensible dialog. You are probably best off ignoring my posts.

          • Zap –

            I think you are miss-characterizing Fenn’s comments.

            Fenn clearly, as you say to 90% of pollees, is suggesting the Poem CANNOT be solved from home.

            Can you put the question and response up for me?


          • DC, You stated above: Here is my reasoning: whenever anyone
            has mentioned to FF about him BURYING
            the treasure he has always corrected them to say he HID it (it may or may not be buried.)

            I just want to point out that in this same Jennifer London interview at the 7:31 mark, FF DOES NOT CORRECT THE WORD BURIED. Jennifer asks: “How did you pick that particular spot to bury the chest?”
            FF replies: “Well, I don’t want to give too many more clues but it’s a very special place to me and otherwise I would not have done it. I mean, I could not have just taken it out and buried it in the ground some place where I didn’t know where I was.”
            Here is the YouTube link:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvIGaVt7C8. For anyone else who needs the link, it is titled Forrest Fenn’s Hidden Treasure on HDNet by Jennifer London published 4/02/2013.

            I am not suggesting that the treasure chest is buried, but there are a few interviews where ff hasn’t corrected the reporter/journalist when they used the word “buried” (this YouTube video is one of them) and every now and then, Forrest has used the word “buried”. I think one of them was on Richard Eeds but I’m not sure but other folks have posted the sources on this blog over the years.

          • Tim ~’I plan an expedition.’

            What exactly does that mean? Are you planning to bring extra socks -?- or planning utilize the clues somehow?
            fenn warns us that the path should be certain beforehand, right? Ok.. so what plans do you have for that path? Just stomping them out? I would really like to know about the “clues” planning… not so much how much it will cost you to stay at motel 8.

            You said ~ ‘I observe what has been said, what is being said, how things are stated, why things are stated or spoken, and then discern the relevance of any is or can be associated to the words through textual criticism.

            That is what we are to observe? Those are all ATF’s…
            What are we to observe in the field?
            I mean, folks are walking by clues not knowing what they are.
            The comment about ‘thinking, analyzing, planning, and observing is almost as old as the chase itself… I doubt it was meant for 8 years of SB’s and interviews or Q&A’s.

            Think about that… certainty beforehand, and go with confidence, and fenn saying the clues can be solvable at home in theory, “but not in practice…” assuming he menat from the start… 2010
            What is it that we need to plan and observe regarding the clues? Especially, if those clues can be deciphered at home, prior to a physical travel of the location.

            IF fenn needed or had to follow the clues… it seems to me that each of the 9 clues have to be understood completely and not just deciphered to what they pertain to. Other wise we just find the last clue on a map and walk to that, right?
            lol… that doesn’t seem to be working, and fenn seemingly followed the clues as well… why did he?… is this the “completed” effort to solving the poem… planning and observing the clues?!

          • Hi Seeker….let me see if I can explain…..in short….to All your questions….I’ll be brief…..

            You wrote:
            “Ok.. so what plans do you have for that path? Just stomping them out? I would really like to know about the “clues” planning… not so much how much it will cost you to stay at motel 8.”

            I have solved the poem from home – theoretically speaking. I will have to make a trip to confirm my findings.

            I will walk the path from start to finish, and hopefully the clues I need to confirm, namely the blaze, will show themselves, based upon my findings. This confirming my theory further.

            I have pretty much a plan of attack on the expedition and what I need to do, buy for the trip, where I’ll stay, etc.

            So, in essence, I could care less on what others have decided upon, because my solve is about what I have discovered….not someone else’s. I learned a long time ago that you can’t really “rely on others to give you the whole truth”….so I apply this to everything I don and make the final decision my own. Free will is very important.

            Please remember…I’ve been to my area twice, so in truth, I have already stomped out the clues, while being there…But also built upon the clues I had already established.

            You wrote:
            “IF fenn needed or had to follow the clues… it seems to me that each of the 9 clues have to be understood completely and not just deciphered to what they pertain to. Other wise we just find the last clue on a map and walk to that, right?”

            Correct. In fact I just posted on what a hint to me is…..but if you read what you stated…it pretty much matches your thinking too.

            Must be just a coincidence, huh?


            “Difficult not impossible, thus, solvable.”
            – quote by Tim (ZosoRocks) – March 2013 – said to my friend at the time he presented me with the poem and FF’s first interview.

            It will be solved, why hide a treasure that no one will find. If that was the case, then it would only be possible for the chest to be found – if by chance. FF changed the rules to his liking.

            How the chest can be found by chance AND by thinking. He has sort of leveled the playing field for pretty much everyone.

            Now we play the game he has devised. Of course, you don’t have to play, because of choice, but if you do, there is a prize at the end.

            How well can you think like Forrest is the game we are playing, Seeker. It isn’t about much more than that.

            Shoot…he told us how to play.

            Either you play by his rules or you don’t.

            You wrote:
            “that doesn’t seem to be working, and fenn seemingly followed the clues as well… why did he?”

            You are incorrect. It worked for me. Maybe you atent thinkning deep enough.

            And yes, I do believe FF walked the path….to create the blaze.

            I also think it is possible for him to walk from his car to the hidey spot twice in one afternoon.

            I could be wrong. So be it if I am. I will have learned from my mistakes and will move forward again.

            But not too many more……I can see why this hobby can be an expensive one.

            For me…three times is a charm. My next trip will be the third.

            Three is a magical number, as I have already posted on before.

            Just some thoughts…thanks for responding.

            Good luck to you when you seek.

          • Tim,

            You said “Three is a magical number, as I have already posted on before.” I agree, though I don’t see it as magical.

            For me, it’s more like cadence, a 1-2-3 kind of thing if that makes sense. Think Lawrence Welk. Not that I’m a fan, but mom and dad sure were.

            Take care………Pinatubocharlie

          • Roger that Tim. I totally missed the correlation and even like numerology.


          • Thanks Bob….brief for each of the sections.

            Well….I tried to…..LOL

            Cheers and thanks for reading my posts.

            Anything in them gotcha tongue tied yet?

            Do any remote viewing lately?


          • Hi Lugnutz: here’s the full question and answer. This was posted on Dal’s site on 2/27/2017, but the interview was from May 2015:

            “How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Another way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?)”

            Forrest’s reply: “All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.”

            This says to me that it is at least theoretically possible to solve all the clues without physically being onsite, otherwise why would he make the claim? For instance, it’s not the sort of answer I would expect Forrest to give if only the first two clues could be solved from home. And why add the final sentence? Of course we’ll have to go to the site to actually find the treasure. In the context of the question and the first part of his answer, the simplest reading to me is that you can (and probably should!) solve all the clues from home. Remember: “it’s not a matter of trying; it’s a matter of thinking.”

          • Hi Zap –

            To me this is another instance where Zap should be arguing against this line of thought. He can’t because it’s his.

            When I ask someone if something can be done and they answer theoretically, they mean NO. They just won’t exclude ALL the possibilities for the desired result. He actually goes on the sharpen the point right?

            He says not in practice.
            It’s not piratical to think one can solve the poem from home, not according to Fenn anyway.

            I think he is clear.
            You must nail down WWH before going afailed, agreed?
            The person who finds the treasure will have… and will move with confidence, agreed?
            It is possible but not practical than the Finder will have solved it from home, right?

            To me, if you cannot see that you are interpreting Fenn to benefit your solved, as opposed to with a eye for logic, than you cannot get any further then TLGFI.

            What I think does not matter for your solve. I am just suggesting that you are closing yourself off to the very Spock like magic that YOU brought to this board. Maybe, like Luke, you are not the one.


          • Hi Pinatubocharlie: I fully agree with your statement “That background and personal experiences in life influence perception and interpretation.” Each searcher is going to bring a unique combination of talents to bear when tackling Forrest’s poem. We all have the same “information” (or at least reasonable access to it), but that knowledge isn’t what’s going to solve the problem — it’s imagination. Thinking the right things, making the right connections.

          • Zap –

            I agree with this.

            I’m not sure the Other Zap I’m talking to agrees though. The other Zap isn’t as thoughtful.


          • Well, Lugnutz, I think we just interpret the quote differently. There is no way I would ever go searching for Forrest’s treasure without an end-to-end solution. That has been my position from the beginning — long before this Q&A. I figure if it can’t be solved from home, fresh insights aren’t going to magically materialize while standing at WWWH. Also, I’m mindful of this quote from Forrest:

            “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental.”

            Showing up on site without a full solution doesn’t sound like a case of “moving with confidence.” It sounds like wishful thinking and a formula for a nice vacation. I guess my question for you is: how many of the 9 clues do you think can be solved from home? It’s gotta be at least two, since Little Indy can do that from a continent away.

          • Hi Zap –

            When folks here take a literal meaning instead of the way something is generally understood, you take issue. That’s what I wanted you to consider.

            To your question, How many clues can be solved from home?

            All but these two: Heavy loads and Water High” — “If you’ve been wise and fond the Blaze, look quickly down your quest to cease.”

            Is the TC at the Blaze? No, but the clues cease there. That’s my opinion.

            Please do consider this. Fenn must be saying there is a clue that cannot be solved from home because he says you need to be out there to find the treasure. Well the treasure isn’t a clue, it’s the target of the clues, right? ergo, there is a clue that must be determined in field. Please pull the quote. if you have it.

            Like this. Bunsen Peak is the Home of Brown and the TC is there, not at the summit, but above the trail. Mammoth Spings (wwh) down 89 (CD) to the Bunsen Trail head (PIBHoB), on trail you pass the part of the forrest that burned leaving the dead black forest (meek), glen creek, you get the idea.

            At some point you find the blaze and follow a direction to Indulgence.

            This is one example of how I think of solves. Since you like to see the hinting evidence, immediately after the poem and clues statement he mentions Gardner Island and the Gardiner River is at the foot of Bunsen Peak. Why was he thinking of Gardner when he worte about his treasure?

            Oh, if you haven’t heard me mention previously, this type of solve is a Brown’s Descent solve. The idea being that as in Brown’s Descent the Home of Brown is at the top of a mountain. I no longer believe there is any driving involved as you know.

            You get it, you nail down WWH, proceed without or without a canyon, there is a creek etc. Blaze found or discovered when you are out there.


          • Lol, now you see Zap. I agree with your last paragraph. There is still hope for your “see it only my way” solve. You say something, we show you examples of what f has stated, and you read it somehow different. Yes, you are right, I cannot gain anything one way or another from that. Pointless.
            I hope that I am not of the 90-95% of agreement with the masses, why would anybody want to be? I still wish you luck though, don’t get the critiques twisted. I just know, (scratch that), I just think you are wrong with some of your ideas, that’s all. Have a shot of Jager, watch Half Baked, pick some flowers, pet a cat, IDK, chill out.

          • cynthia on December 28, 2017 at 8:37 am said:

            “DC, You stated above: Here is my reasoning: whenever anyone
            has mentioned to FF about him BURYING
            the treasure he has always corrected them to say he HID it (it may or may not be buried.)

            I just want to point out that in this same Jennifer London interview at the 7:31 mark, FF DOES NOT CORRECT THE WORD BURIED. Jennifer asks: “How did you pick that particular spot to bury the chest?”
            FF replies: “Well, I don’t want to give too many more clues but it’s a very special place to me and otherwise I would not have done it. I mean, I could not have just taken it out and buried it in the ground some place where I didn’t know where I was.”
            Here is the YouTube link:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvIGaVt7C8. For anyone else who needs the link, it is titled Forrest Fenn’s Hidden Treasure on HDNet by Jennifer London published 4/02/2013.

            I am not suggesting that the treasure chest is buried, but there are a few interviews where ff hasn’t corrected the reporter/journalist when they used the word “buried” (this YouTube video is one of them) and every now and then, Forrest has used the word “buried”. I think one of them was on Richard Eeds but I’m not sure but other folks have posted the sources on this blog over the years.”

            I wonder if Mr. Fenn has taken to “lawyer talk” concerning how Indulgence rests in its hiding place. Finding “buried” treasure may come under a different set of recovery obligations, whereas a “hidden” treasure may not. Just a thought and another opinion over the discrepancies over time.

      • Hi JDA….I think you have limited the terminology of the word “structure”.

        I also believe that FF stated this anomaly somewhere….and also explained that we should pay attetion to the “nouns” (he uses).

        the arrangement of and relations between the parts or elements of something complex.
        “flint is extremely hard, like diamond, which has a similar structure”
        synonyms: construction, form, formation, shape, composition, anatomy, makeup, constitution;….


        Cleary….you dismiss something that is quite important….a structure does not necessarily mean “man-made”.

        For my general solve, hoB is already used in the figurative in the poem, so I kept it in the same way when I apply it to the map and geography.

        Good luck.

        • Tim;

          Using your definition – the arrangement of and relations between the parts or elements of something complex. – this would eliminate almost everything from being the hoB – If the hoB is not associated with the arrangement of and relations between the parts or elements of something complex. Soil is complex – Sedimentary rocks are complex – almost all life forms are complex.

          JMO, but I think this is too radical a definition to base your solve upon. Almost left with hoB as being a Brown Amoeba – 🙂 JDA

          • I think you misunderstand my point.

            I don’t think FF ever stated it in the way you think.

            FF is vwet vague in many statements and in the words he uses.

            So vague, the meaning is obscured.

            Just because some think that “no structures are associated with the treasure”….to me….that has no meaning at all.

            I can agree that Maybe some “structure” of molecules exist, because the land it resides upon is structured in some way.

            This FF’s use is not accurate, basing it upon my supplied definition.

            I don’t think FF was even thinking of this word at that level, even though it was the first noun definition of the word when googled.

            Why? Just don’t….everything in the universe is structured, so it really is irrelevant.

            Now if you remove that thinking and set it aside, what else is it can be a structure?

            A building of some sort
            A house of cards
            A beaver dam
            A fallen tree across a river or creek now becomes a bridge – which is normally constructed by man, but not this time, it was done by Nature.

            Do you discount this to be a structure?

            Imagination is important….

            Sound like you are still inside the box and not seeing what can be outside the box.

            Forrest is clever. How clever can you be, in order to play his game?


          • Tim;

            Not patting myself on the back, but if you only knew how much imagination I have used, and how far out of the box I have gone, you would slap yourself across the forehead and say “Damn, why didn’t I think of that?” Just sayin’ Remember I (like every other poster) post only what I want others to know, I never tell ALL that I know – what did Forrest say about the whisperers? – JDA

        • Tim,
          The one thing you missed out of all those definitions is… supports. [foundation, pillars etc,]
          Even in the example of Flint to Diamonds, the supports is on a molecular level of the atoms, because of man’s intervention… But there is always something that ‘supports’ a structure that is ‘made’ including that example. {example, if a diamond is not cut properly, it will split at a flaw [ in a natural stone ] [a man made flint or cut diamond are produced by man ]

          The question is… do natural features have the definition of “supports”? [something done to make something stronger or stand on it’s own, line of thinking.]

          Your example of a fallen tree across a river is not a structure… sorry. Whether or not it is usable as a bridge, or crossing, doesn’t automatically make it a structure. It’s just a fallen tree. If it fell in a field, would it now be a pathway? or just an obstacle?

          • Good points Seeker.

            You are right…it wouldn’t be a walkway…..I was just trying to show how imagination can be applied in ways that express meaning to things said, but not necessarily to the meaning of what was said.

            You helped express it. Thanks.

            For my solve, there are no bridges, and mine is based upon the patterns I’ve already mentioned.

            I personally think JDA’s methodology has way to much walking…and too long of a walk.

            I don’t think FF stopped, after a three mile walk to walk four more miles to the next clue, nor do, I think the whole trek is more than 10 miles from start to finish.

            But those are just my feelings.

            Remember…I’m the guy who uses remote viewing….*smiles*…

          • Tim;

            I have never (I don’t think) said that a searcher, nor Forrest walked the entire way. I believe I have stated that I drive to my wwwh. stop look, get back in car, drive down the canyon (Road overlooks canyon) past “Put in” spot, get off of road I was on, get on another road, and drive past the Meek place to the END place and park.

            Only hiking is from there. One leg I followed took me a LONG way, but then I was sent back to a place near where I started.

            My FINAL solve, from the parking spot, I hike about 1 mile to Indulgence and back to parking lot – repeat – Total about 4 miles – In one afternoon. JDA

          • Okay…I understand now…..you use a hybrid solve of both walking and driving.

            Gotcha. I misunderstood your previous post where you “link” everything in series/continuous.

            I’ll disagree for now, as I think FF walked the path, in order to mark the path. Not to say he could have driven part of the way (because he knew the location well enough) and then,stopped, marked a trail, got back in his vehicle, drove to next spot, marked a trail, etc…through the path, and ended with the placement.

            This is plausible, considering the environment, conditions, distance, etc….but…FF probably is implying we should walk the distance, just to enjoy the surrounding area, and be in wonder.

            I still believe you cannot find the blaze without having BOTG – walking it.

            But that take will be for another day.

            Good luck, and sorry about my misunderstanding….well agree to disagree that the total distance from start to finish is more than 10 miles.

            Best of luck to you…*waves his hand your way to the North*…..be safe out there felow seeker!.


          • Tim;

            You said, “I still believe you cannot find the blaze without having BOTG – walking it.” Yes-No

            Blaze #1 – drove right up to it…Kinda.
            Same parking lot as all solves – looked out front windshield, and there it was – “In your face”!

            All other blazes, had to hike at least 3/4 mile. – Most about 1 mile – One, a LONG hike of about 4 miles. Final solve, 1 mile there, 1 mile back – Twice. YES, the final blazes will be at site where Indulgence is secreted. JDA

          • Seeker,

            I just had the privilege of reading your post from back in Decemeber of 2017 regarding all Forrest comments which when taken in total seem if not contradictory, at least mysterious.

            This is absolutely critical for the searchers since the resolutions to these apparent contradictions profoundly improve your chances of producing the correct solution!

            As Sherlock Holmes says, “when you have eliminated the impossible, whatever remains, no matter how improbable, must be the truth.”

            Or as Spock says, “… what remains, now matter how improbable, becomes probable…”


          • GCG,
            That may sound like a process of elimination, line of thinking, But it also refers to the idea, what is left should have been tested to be likely. That is the basis of a theory…
            I think this is what fenn implied when he stated the clues solved at home Q&A…
            In theory, but not in practice. Here is where I’ll add the idea of… solve vs, general solve. The only way to prove a “solve” is by a correct completion of the task ~ retrieving the chest, or at the very least, proof of the hidey spot.

            So, “in theory, but not in practice…” seems to mean we can solve the clue’s reference, beforehand, but that is not all that may be needed to prove to references correct. We may have more work in the field than just simply stomping from point to point…
            Is this why fenn made the statement he “followed the clues when he hid the chest”… even he had to do something to “complete” the task { completed? } the poem’s blueprint?

            In theory anyways….

          • Veins in a leaf are the support for the leaf’s structure. Atoms are the support for molecular structure.

            I’m with Tim. Structure is so broad it becomes meaningless.

            Go back to Forrest’s Today interview and listen to what he says. And even there, we fill in the blank as to what we assume he means by structure. I keep what he said as limited as possible. The chest itself (not the chase, not the poem) is not associated with a structure — and you also need to understand what he means by associated with. I take it to mean the chest is not directly connected to, not attached to, or not underneath or sitting on top of a structure.

            As for structure? No outhouses, okay I get it. And I won’t be looking inside or under any other buildings. But how close or how far away is a thing before it is no longer “associated with” a structure?

            ps. Go back and re-read Cynthia’s post to JDA where she hoped to enlighten him about what Forrest said to her and what it meant. I beg to differ with her conclusion. As far as I am concerned hoB can be a structure — so long as your solve does not place the chest at the location of hoB or close enough that it could somehow be associated with hoB.

    • Tom B

      I think you are close.

      What if “home of Brown”
      was meant as “Brown home”
      like butterfly vs: flutterby.

      As far as Brown being capitalized, how about just because Forrest wanted it capitalized because it is an important place for him and has named that place “Brown” not unlike the name of any town or city.

      Fenn’s place the “home of Brown” has been and will be for 1000’s of years in my opinion.

  35. Pint, Zoso… way up-thread… RE: your crossed lines & X comments:

    THING ONE: … “Like you’re making an X on a map”…. So start at WWWH and draw a stroke down the canyon, a SW direction (assuming you’re right handed.) Go about as far as ‘too-far.’ But don’t look for the HOB there. Lift your pen, go due North and start your cross-stroke at the HOB which is due west of WWWH. You get where I’m going?

    The second stroke is a SE direction. First stroke was on the canyon floor, 2nd one is probably across the ridges ( the high water line).

    I don’t know where the blaze is, unless you are already looking at it after you make the X. Look quickly down, under the intersection for the hidey spot.

    THING TWO: …. Fenn likes to make rules, so use a ruler. Grandma told me that in the meat locker. A pirate told me how to make the X. He had to abandon his ship near Hebgen dam.

  36. I have two solves where a Brown previously lived but the structures are no longer there…not even ruins. Should I disqualify them?

    • Hey Frank,

      In my opinion the historical homes of a person named Brown have already been investigated. They have been looking for this person and his old cabin ruins for over 7 years with no success.

      Solving this home of Brown mystery requires that we think like Forrest Fenn. He has, IN MY OPINION, left many hints in TTOTC for us to identify it, and in what form it exists.

      If I am right, there is humorous irony in the solution. But to answer your question directly, I believe you should disqualify them and move on.


    • Frank. I would be hesitant to throw out a possible clue solution based on second hand information. I personally think that “Brown” involves many of whatever makes it up, but that’s only an opinion. If you have a solid poem solution, don’t be too quick to discard it.

    • Frank;

      No one can tell you whether to keep it or throw it away. All I can say is that my hoB has never related to a person, or where this person might have resided. All relate to physical land features of one kind or another – JDA

    • I don’t think a structure needs to exist anymore for the HoB clue. Consider the context of an early rancher or miner or lumberjack named Brown.

      The homesteader act of 1862 gave 160 acres to those people who worked it. A person working long hours tending his 160 acres would consider the land his home. The ephemeral structure housing his bed and stove was one of many parts comprising the homestead.

  37. New fun-I was playing with an imagination oriented interpretation of hob, I think if we all had to choose our state’s most recognized license plate we could, my possible idea involves a Mr Cowboy Joe and his home being the state, put in below that…look at the big picture. Any thoughts? Note that ATIITCD did not lead me here so I don’t feel like I’m giving anything away but please share if you had used this hob prior, please? For me this leads me to a close to home possibility and I’ve gone down several rabbit holes but I don’t have a complete 9 clue solve yet

  38. So i am on the San Juan River, a little ways below the Navijo Dam, because that seem like its “not far, but to far to walk” down the canyon.

    Just a recap of how I got here.
    Clue #1 – new and old = New Mexico
    Clue #2 – WWWH = river starting at border of New Mexico and Colorado (San Juan).

    Looking at towns and landmarks wondering if any of them have any connection to “Brown”.

    Well, I came across this “https://www.urbandictionary.com/define.php?term=turley”.

    turley – The toilet, the pot where one goes to the bathroom in.

    Seems like “home of Brown”. Didnt he say it wasn’t under the old outhouse.

    I am thinking, hmmm, maybe I am on to something.

    I guess I will have to look for a “put in” below Turley.

    • Question for all: Can mail boxes, fences, flagpoles, small masonry monuments, small bridges, short boardwalks, picnic tables or any free standing small stuff be considered human structures?

      My unsure answer: IMO, a structure must be ‘substantial’ in its dimensions and/ or must have a roof.

    • DeerX2: “or” perhaps, but not “and/or.” A radio tower is undeniably a human structure but has no roof. Any man-made bridge, however small, is a structure in my book. I would say a picnic table also qualifies. Anything inanimate that was “constructed” by a human being is technically a structure. So even Ikea furniture (once put together) would be a structure. One definition of structure to be mindful of is “anything composed of parts arranged together in some way.” So sounds like a mailbox would qualify, or a boardwalk (like those found all over Yellowstone).

      • As an aside, how about Stonehenge? No roof, but clearly a human structure. (unless you consider Ancient Alien Theorists) 🙂


      • Hi Fennatical: Stonehenge is definitely a (roofless) structure. Those blue stones didn’t start out as nicely consistent parallelopipeds. They were hewn to size, and transported a great distance to the Salisbury plain. Sculptor JDA could tell you that was no small feat!

    • No.

      Read carefully what Cynthia wrote to JDA. Look back at the Today Show interview.

      And if you’ve been paying attention elsewhere, then you know how people mess up the question when later talking about it, so that Forrest’s answer is misinterpreted; or how they later mis-remember the exact words of what Forrest said, so that their reinterpretation spreads false information, in other words context is everything.

      I believe Cynthia believes what she has shared is true. And I do not fault her for it at all. But I do not have a recording or a transcript of the conversation with FF so I have no context, no way to verify what was said before, during or after the relevant words. I also do not know her so have no way to assess her credibility in a general way – although she is highly respected here.

      I also know people here can agree on things that simply are not known to be truth, like what is or is not a clue.

      I think hoB can be associated with a human structure unless your solve places the treasure chest so close in proximity to hoB that it is “associated with” hoB.

      I also think people have made some excellent arguments here against a lot of hoB structures based on other thinking. But I do think hoB can be a structure – because I have neither seen nor read definitive evidence to convince me otherwise..

      • T Hunter;

        You are welcome to your opinion and interpretation. I happen to disagree. I believe that NO structure is associated with ANY of the clues – including hoB. As you say though, what is a “structure” and what does “associated” mean? I think that there are some rocks above where Indulgence lies. Is this a structure – even if Forrest put a couple of them there? I think not. JMO – JDA

      • T Hunter –

        You do understand that Cinnamon mountain isn’t made of cinnamon right? Echo Peak isn’t the only place you can here your echo.

        Reliving that Home of Brown is a reference to a physical Home is about the same as believing those.

        What the heck I will add that these are my assumptions. If it turns out that Cinnamon Mountain is made of Cinnamon I will eat Jake’s hat!

        ♪ ♫

      • T. Hunter,

        All of the clues are associated to the treasure, therefore none of the clues are associated to a man made structure and it doesn’t matter how close or far away its still a clue.

        The Chase is about nature as the mountains are F’s chapel, I’ll eat my boots if hoB is a structure, in fact this applies to any clue. Its about places and direction.

        Just Say’n

      • T hunter,

        Just one question. Will “your hoB” structure be around in 3009? I mean, If it was built 1000 years ago would it still be standing today. I would assume your structure is made of stone.. right?

        Ok more that was more than one question… Jake don’t read this post, it may be hazardous to the environment.

        • Brown has been a dirty word and color for most for many years. I feel bad for brown and maybe it should be Brown. Give it a little more respectability being capped.

          If Brown in the poem was or is a man-made structure, then I’m out! That’s how I feel about brown and Brown. Now just put in.

          • To be honest with you Idle,
            I don’t think HOB has anything to do with any structure, man made or not. I’ll eat my hat with cinnamon mountain dirt if it is. Yes I do have some Lug and I have tasted it.

    • Michael, I was just chatting with JDA over on the WWWH thread and realized this is the more appropriate location for discussing HOB.

      I just learned about the Cynthia quote and looked it up on the Odds N’ Ends Archive #39. Her post was 12/9/17 @ 6:53 PM towards the very bottom of the thread.

      This was new information to me, and right now is enough to convince me that hoB is not a human structure. Most of my past hoB’s have been a human structure, so I’ll need to rewire my thinking a bit now!

  39. in light of my brilliant comment to Meadowlark over on the odds and ends thread i would like to continue discussion on a basement. i feel the thoughts belong here on home of Brown thread.
    so “put in below the home of Brown”
    has anyone considered that Forrest is just giving a clue to a basement here? he chose one of the most common last names he could think of. Brown is capitalized to indicate last name. certainly many of you searchers have found every home of Brown in the search area. if i am correct in assuming that below home of Brown is SIMPLY a basement, then any other common last name would work for this line of the poem…
    put in below home of Smith
    put in below home of Anderson
    put in below home of Carter
    get the picture? put in below any home is a basement.
    by using Brown he leads searchers to as many different places as he can.
    and here is how i put basement into the poem map directions…
    first stanza is the place.
    second stanza is directions to that place with the last line telling you to go to the basement.
    third stanza describes the journey from the structure above ground to the basement.
    fourth stanza tells you what to do in the basement.
    fifth stanza confirmation you are at the correct place.
    sixth stanza is confirmation you have performed the proper tasks.

    i think.

  40. FF says the nouns are important. I wonder if Brown is capitalized simply to point it out as a noun and not an adjective.

    • sean- i agree. Brown as noun. capital B proper name noun but not brown. the homeowner’s last name begins with B. and the home is a shade of brown. and always will be. because it is protected.

      i think.

      i wish someone would have protected us.

  41. I was just thumbing through “Flywater” (1994) and read on page 105:

    Brown trout were first stocked in the Firehole in 1890—a hundred generations’ worth of adaptation. These trout not only survive but actually prefer the inordinately warm water of the Firehole (mid 70s summer)

    photo of page 105 – https://imgur.com/a/3A1VI

    (Just sharing information—Firehole isn’t my HOB)

  42. I have a separate question regarding Home of Brown, and am hoping someone here might be able to shed some light:

    Though I’ve been searching half-heartedly but actively since 2011, I haven’t paid much attention to the on-line community and forums that have sprung up around the search, other than this one… until recently. In at least two of those other forums, it has recently come to light that several searchers “might” have have had improper and unfair access to Forrest. I think most of the chatter is pure, trashy gossip from untrustworthy people and I take it all with a grain of salt. However, one key person in particular claims to have been directly told by Forrest that “HOB definitely had nothing to do with trout.” (This appears to be just one such assertion made by this person, but it provides this thread provides the opportunity for this discussion.)

    My questions, for those who know what I’m talking about but without debasing this conversation with unnecessary details, is directed at Dal or others who have attended Fenboree events or who know Forrest personally: Are we to take these claims as reputable and established fact or, exactly the opposite given the nature of the person making them, assume they are completely baseless and possibly even deliberately misleading? More important, is there any chance that Forrest will address these rumors and either confirm or deny, in an effort to level the playing field and keep things fair?

    • Hi WYSearcher – I look forward to reading Dal’s opinion on the subject. Personally, when the source has been untruthful in the past, then there is probably little to be gained by pondering the reliability of current claims. That being said, if it is any consolation, it is my ~own~ personal opinion that home of Brown has nothing to do with trout.

    • I believe Mr. Fenn to be a respectable & honest man. That being said, no, I don’t believe he said that, he wouldn’t. IF he didn’t, he would post it for all to see, he doesn’t play favourites. If they can’t show the quote, don’t believe it. We are all just giving our opinions, he is the only one who can give facts.

      • Thanks, Sparrow. I should have noted that my ‘quoted’ words were really a paraphrasing, so the “HOB” abbreviation was my own. I don’t know exactly what the original conversation was, but the meaning was clear.

        • WY—

          Yeah—actually I was kidding with you. Everyone on the board knows HOB is Home of Brown. But I would agree with everyone posting here that Forrest is a man of integrity and plays very fair. I don’t remember hearing that he said it had nothing to do with trout—but Home of Brown is so vague it could really be anything anyway. Happy hunting!!

          • Thanks again. And count yourself lucky that you hadn’t heard the context in which this clue was supposedly given. I agree with all here that believe Forrest is trying to be fair and that we need to take him at his word. You have to, and if we can’t, then what’s the point?! It’s just that, given the circumstances and magnitude of corroboration that certain conversations “did” take place in one form or another, I just wish he would clear the air in some way. Kind of like he did when he sought to clarify the remarks around the subject of WWH and dams, when he realized he’d told different things to different people. And something less vague than “I never said it didn’t, but I never said it did either.”

    • WY- yes, its me who has improper and unfair access to Forrest. I pecked a hole in the side of his head and looked around. I found nothing of interest to me.

  43. It is my personal opinion that Forrest never denied or confirmed that the home of Brown has (or has not) anything to do with trout.

    It is a very integral part of the mystery of the poem.

    Forrest has played fair with all of us. He would never privately tell anyone a critical thing like that. It’s not how he operates.


  44. Question: how can the home of Brown last a thousand years as a Forrest Fenn treasure hunt clue?

    Answer: its on the National Register of Historic Places.

    i think.

  45. My take on the recent Mystery Words.

    FF, you say “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt.” My question- Is there more than 1 home of Brown? Thanks, Jill

    “No Jill, there is only one home of Brown in my poem. f”

    It is no secret that I feel that the clues in the poem point to the Memoir. To me stanza one is a riddle, the answer is Memoir.

    So what color is the Memoir cover? Where is the poem? Answers: Brown and in TTOTC

    Where is the home of Brown? In TTOTC above the poem in the book.

    • WyMustIGo,

      I like it! Your approach is just the sort of novel thinking that can crack the code, metaphorically speaking (I don’t think the solution is related to codes or ciphers, that would be boring, IMO).

      I come up with a different answer to the riddle, but I share your view that stanza one is exactly that. It MUST be hinting at something. If not, it would be an incredible waste of an entire stanza.

      Best if I stop talking now 🙂

    • Wy, I like to read your ideas, too. I was just perusing FF quotes for a new blog article and came upon these two:
      “If you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure.f.” (MW April 5th, 2017)
      “You’ve got to solve the riddle in the poem.” “You can’t ignore any of the nouns in that poem.” Isaac Cole podcast 5/8/201730:40

      So if we use your thoughts and combine both these quotes, can we marry the nine clues to their geographic locations? and use the other NOUNS in the other 3 stanzas (1, 5, & 6) to find these locations using TTOTC and the text within it, including your comment above about hoB?

      Definition of “geographic” in The American Heritage Dictionary: Concerning the topography of a specific region

      Definition of geography in same dictionary: 1.) The study of the earth and its features and of the distribution of life the earth.
      2.) The geographic characteristics of an area.


      • Hi Cynthia;

        I very much agree with your using a complete definition of “Geography” in solving the riddles.

        I also agree that the clues reside in stanza’s 2,3 and 4, and that stanza’s 1, 5 and 6 contain the clues.

        When I first started the chase, 26 months ago, I was in the camp that said 9 sentences = 9 clues. About one year ago I moved into the camp described above.

        When I first started, I used the “Hints” to direct me to my search area – Specifically “In the wood” and “Worth the cold”. Stanza #1 told me that eventually I would have to go “In there” to find Indulgence, I just did not know where “in there” was yet.

        As I have said before, I think the searcher must solve the clues more than once. There are multiple wwwh’s, canyons down, hoB’s etc. The clues (stanza’s 2, 3 and 4) are enough to get me from point A to B to C etc – then start over again. The “Hints” do not play a part (again) until I am at the final destination.

        It is like the clues get me from my house to the front steps of the grocery store. Once at the front door, where within the building am I to find what I came to the store for. Where is one to find the dried mustard? The “hints” tell me to look for the isle that contains the spices – then to look on the middle shelf – near the center – in a white tin marked “Ground Mustard”. The “clues” got me to the store, the “hints” get to to the final product (Indulgence).

        At least, that is the way my solve works. Other’s, including yours, may differ. Only time will tell if I am right or not. Is it May or June yet??? JDA

          • If you are using an allegory for “overcoming mountains of decisions”….I think I said that right…..*shrugs*…..then….

            Jimi Hendrix’s “Voodoo Chile” has the lyrics of “chop it down with the edge of my hand” in reference to “his mountain.”

            In both cases CO, yours and mine, both are related to the mind and how much power our imagination holds.

            Both are visualizations of the same context….”moving mountains with your mind”.

            An interesting way to look at it, is what I thought.

            Best regards and good luck.

        • JDA, Thanks for sharing… you explained your method of using the entire poem perfectly. I love it. I was doing something similar only the opposite. I need to use the “macro” clues (stanzas 2, 3, 4) and then the “micro” hints (stanzas 1,5,6) … Maybe one of us can bring the treasure chest to West Yellowstone in June. Good luck.

          • That would be nice wouldn’t it? I wish you luck (kinda) :-). I have decided that if I find it, I will divulge the general area, but not the detailed solve. It will take about 1 year (I am guessing – “IF” I find her) to get my book published, and figure out how to turn Indulgence into needed cash. This “year” will give others a chance to try and figure out the exact location. I might even offer an incentive – say $1,000.00 to each of the first 5 people who can figure it out. Not much, but a little something for their efforts.

            Maybe some kind of “Sliding scale” reward. Question is – Bigger the sooner you figure it out? or if no one figures it out early, bigger towards the end of the year, when there might be fewer total correct solves? Hummm? Something to ponder “IF” I find her – JDA

      • cynthia,

        You are absolutely correct about geography the one quote, “If you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure.f.” (MW April 5th, 2017) has always been my mainstay in finding the treasure.

        The geography changes from the beginning to the end. I mostly prefer “landscape” in what I see in person on the ground. I’ve already had Botg so I understand the area, yet there are parts that I have not been to.

        After “Put in below the home of Brown”, which is a location that is hard to recognize, every clue after is not easy unless you are physically there, then every clue after hoB is much easier to solve using a map that is also a topographic map to ensure that you are above and below the elevation limits set by F.

        All of the 9 clues, which are geographic locations that are married as one moves along the route to the TC. None of the clues can be forced, if they are, then the route is more than likely wrong.

        As always my opinion.

      • Hi Cynthia,

        I believe that the poem is at least two layers, one being a map (or missing table of contents) for TTOTC, and the other a map to the real world. I believe that all 9 clues in the poem have homes within TTOTC where the hints are. Although the book may not be required, if you use the poem to get to the hints, it sort of helps remove some vaugness of the poem.

        If we work on the poem, the very first connection I see to the book is page 23. “As I have gone alone in there”. If you search the entire book, with the exception of the title page and copyright the ONLY place “Forrest Fenn” exists is on page 23. It also just so happens that “Forrest” is the 23rd word in the book sentence, and “As I have gone alone in there” is 23 characters.

        The difficulty is that the pattern is not the same. I believe that the book itself provides the hints of how we are supposed to use the poem.

        I wish I could discuss it better and more clear, but it is very hard to do so without giving away too much.

    • Wy—-

      I actually think the riddle is “So why is it that I must go?” Stanza one is not the riddle. Just my opinion.

      • To be more specific the riddle is: “So why is it that I MUST go and leave my trove for all to seek?”

        • Sparrow,

          I think I have the answer to the question. To stay on topic I put it under the thread, The Poem…..

      • It could be, but the reason why I think stanza one is the riddle is because the first clue is “Begin it wwwwh”, and I believe that stanza one is there for an important reason (define IT).

        To me Stanza one tells you to use the book and apply the algorithm starting at “Begin it” on the book itself to locate the hints in the book. Once the hints are located, you apply them back as solutions in the poem and then map it to a real map.

        If we skip the hints in the book we can still solve it, but it becomes a brute force trial and error attempt that could take thousands of attempts.

        • at the risk of under-complicating the solution, didn’t Forrest Fenn say words to the effect that the person who finds the treasure will say “duh…what took me so long?”

          • IMO
            I strongly believe that quote is referring to Mr. Fenn, not myself. Any quotes with me, mine, ect I replaces with Mr. Fenn to see if it made more sense.
            You will ask yourself what took Mr. Fenn so long

          • Bob;

            I think it is kinda’ like learning to ride a bicycle. Without ever having ridden a tricycle, the idea of peddling to go forward is a new concept that must be learned. Once a child masters the tricycle, he/she advances to a bicycle with training wheels. Balance was not required with the tricycle, but it is with a bicycle. A new skill that must be learned. And then the day that all children look forward to, the training wheels come off. W O W – and down the road they go, until their first fall. Back up again, and soon comes mastery and the child shouts – “What took me so long?”

            Solving the poem’s riddles, to me at least, is like this process. Slow, methodical, painful at times. And then the “TA DA” moment when it all comes together, and you shout – “What took me so long?”

            Is the process easy? Heck no it isn’t. Once solved, is the methodology that Forrest used simple? – Well, to me at least, Kinda, but not quite.

            Many things in life become “simple” once the underlying processes are understood – but seem VERY complex or complicated until those underlying principles are understood.

            Try teaching algebra to a 1st grader, who barely understands how to add and subtract. It just isn’t going to work, but once the fundamentals are learned, algebra is not a giant leap forward – well, for most anyway – It was a BIG leap for me –

            For you, it may be different, but this is how I see the process – JDA

          • Nice analogies, JDA. You’re a smart guy. Now, find the darn treasure so we can all get some sleep. 🙂

          • “Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.” Albert Einstein

          • Bob. I don’t think the solution will be complicated at all. Not easy to figure it out initially, but so “simple” that you will wonder why no one else got it first. No unusual word meanings, no hidden numbers, etc. Everything should fit easily, in my opinion.

          • JDA,

            In response to your response to Bob:

            Just last week in the car my wife says to me, “Why is it in life that everything is difficult until it is easy?” She was referring to her mom’s having to learn to use a walker while wearing a neck brace (the result of three broken vertebrae from a car accident two weeks earlier). Everyday mom makes gains as she goes through physical and occupational therapies on a dailey basis.

          • Swwot;

            Here is to a speedy recovery for your mother-in-law. One step at a time – Take care and Happy Hunting – JDA

          • JDA, and any other interested folks,

            My MIL comes home later today after 26 days in the hospital and rehabilitation. Oy.

            Thanx for the kind words!

  46. It makes me wonder why the cap B.
    Most of our attention is drawn to this shortly after we read the poem after a few times.
    Could it B we pay way too much attention to the cap than we should?

    • Kraft;

      Just a thought. To a very young child a capital “B” is just a BIG “B” instead of a little “b”. Maybe we are to look for a BIG “B” instead of a little “b”. – So what might a BIG “B” – be? In Buffalo Cowboys, Forrest talks about roping Cody – A Big Buffalo.

      Have you ever been to Yellowstone and seen a BIG Bull Buffalo up close? They ARE B I G ! ! !

      “Oh give me a home where the buffalo roam…” Hummm???

      Just musin’ – JDA

      • Billy used to have buffalo….that is until they started to get out. The plan was to buy 3 heifer calves and a dozen bull calves. Then I was going to see which of the bull calves was the friendliest and get rid of all the other bulls. I was told by the buffalo people that if a calf grows up within a fenced area, they will learn their boundaries and not challenge the fence line when they grow up. That made sense, I thought.

        Well I never got around to culling out the bulls, and after about three years, I had 3 cows and 12 full grown bull buffalo. I wasn’t scared of them because they knew me, because I would feed them cattle cubes. They would run to the front of the pasture (more like a stampede) when I would honk the horn on my pickup truck. The trick was to shake out the cattle cubes fast enough on the ground, as I walked along to keep from being trampled. (there is lots of head butting and shoving amongst buffalo)
        Well all was well and fine until they realized, a barbed wire fence was no match for them.
        One time when they got out, I walked out into the neighbors pasture to “push” them back across the fence back onto my place. It isn’t hard to do, but you want all of them to go at the same time or a straggler will panic when they realize they are alone, separated from the herd.

        On this particular occasion, the Biggest bull (with a capital B) was off by himself and the others were already moving across the fence back home. I called to him and eventually he saw me. He looked up and started running picking up speed. The trouble was that he was running straight at me. This made me think the herd had moved back behind me. No… nope, as I looked behind me, they were taking turns jumping back over the fence to my left about 300′ away. Yet Mr. BIG was barreling down on me. What to do?

        Well I can tell you there is not much anyone can do to avoid a 2000# Big bull intent on making you toe jam in the middle of a pasture. Soooo….I awaited my fate for about 10 seconds as he lost his nerve and ran past, just missing me at full speed, coming to a jump stop about 25′ away facing me, letting out a few good snorts.

        I never again approached them again unless I was on horseback. Later I learned that Mr. Big was Psycho. I rounded them all up and had them in a corral by the barn. They could come in the barn from the corral when I fed them the cubes. I learned mr. Big was a psychopath one day when feeding them. Most were in the barn eating some cubes when Mr. Big entered…. Then … pandemonium ensued as the remaining 14 buffalo immediately ran to the exit all pushing and shoving trying to escape the company of Mr. B.

        I should have such respect…. and IMO Bulls in the woods relate to finding the treasure. Where’s my horse?

        • Sherif Billy,

          Now there’s imagination and truth. I enjoyed the story a lot, reminds me of my life on a farm.

          Good One

        • I agree Sherif B
          “Bulls in the woods relate to finding the treasure – Nice story. We were talking about Brown weren’t we – Brown skivvies is what I would have had with Mr. B charging at me. – Just sayin’ – JDA

          • P.S. – Twelve bulls – 3 cows – – – Talk about contented cows – Just jokin’, I know it doesn’t work that way. Who won the “Range wars” between the bulls – Mr. Psycho? – JDA

        • Hahahaha…thank you, Sherif Billy! Still laughing…

          Going up to buffalo land in 3 months. (Not a threat for the TC. I get distracted by the beauty up there and can gaze like a statue for hours.)

        • Last night, I told the story to my son-in-law of a herd of buffalo running down the middle of the road at night and we came upon them and all we could do was stop and brace for impact and hope turning on the high beams of the vehicle would stop them. They did. The nose of the Big Boy was nearly touching the bug guard.

      • I love it JD,
        Chapter 4 buffalo smoke.
        Page 14 TFTW
        “on the Madison and thought how nice it would be if all animals, humans especially, would just go on about their business in peace, as we did that morning, and leaving others alone.
        There must be a moral in there somewhere”

        My HOB. 4th line after where to begin.

  47. Brown is a neglected color, so he gave Brown a special distinction in his poem.

    A tribute to his best friend Eric Sloane.

  48. I have been here on my couch for too many minutes thinking about what I’d like to say about the HOB. Do I want to see it? Not per se. PIBTHOB? Why not? I guess I’m just checking in to let all of you know I’m here. Wish I were there… In due time… In due time…

  49. If you don’t put in below the HOB, I don’t think one can find the blaze. HOB first, blaze second. I doubt anyone would make it to the blaze without putting in below the HOB. IMO

    • Covery One

      In my solution, the home of Brown is above in elevation, so when I put in, I am below it. I don’t see much discussion along these lines.


      • I do like that theory Franklin and have mentioned that possibility once on here. Below could be below in elevation, down stream, south, or some combination of the three IMO. In any case to find HOB we have to find below first. And who says we even need to get to HOB? Putting in below is all the poem is telling us we need to do on the surface.

        • Aaron;

          Sorry, I can’t agree – to me, below means past.

          It well could mean lower in elevation, but I also think that it means you must come to hoB, then go past it. If it just means lower in elevation, this has already been covered in “…canyon down” – why even all “below the hoB”? Forrest could have just said BIWWWH, ATIITCD and then “put In.” From there …etc.” BELOW hoB HAS to have significance, or it would not be there. – JMO – JDA

          • I am not privy to your exact translation of the poem but I don’t understand how below home of Brown means come to HOB and go past it. Love to hear how though!

          • Clue #1 says, “Begin it wwwh, And take it in the canyon down.”
            “Not far but too far to walk” (This line not needed for this discussion, although an important line.)
            “Put in below the hoB.”

            So we start at wwwh, and take a trip down a canyon some distance. We are then told to “Put in” BELOW a place called hoB.

            If we “Put in” ABOVE hoB – (since we are going down a canyon that may or may not have water in it – although the term “Put in” is a nautical term, impyling that our canyon has water in it.) – we will not have passed hoB – since we are ABOVE hoB.

            BUT if we “put in” BELOW hoB, we will have passed the hoB. Make sense now? Hope so. JDA

          • Now I see where you are coming from. If you are traveling south down a canyon and home of brown is to your right, lets say, you keep going and put in just below or past it. Now do you go toward it and past it once you put in below it or continue another direction?

          • I guess that that depends on how you interpret where the “meek place” is.

            You are heading south down canyon – you pass hoB. Is your “put In” spot on the east bank or west bank of the watercourse you were in? Only you can decide. “Certain for the one…etc” You had to know in advance. Does the position of hoB dictate the correct “put in” side of the watercourse? – Maybe yes, maybe no – up to you to decide.

            For me, knowing what the “Meek Place” is answered your question, at least for me. JDA

          • Thanks for the explanation JDA, I was just curious if you, and others, felt like you needed to be physically at home of Brown on your path to the TC.

          • JDA wrote this- If it just means lower in elevation, this has already been covered in “…canyon down” – why even all “below the hoB”?

            It wouldn’t be covered before if after heading down in elevation in the canyon the path or dirt road splits right there once one reaches the hoB. One leg heading below the hoB and the other leg heading away from the hoB.

        • When Forrest says to “put in below the hoB”, I believe he is saying to “put in” the canyon down, not the water. I know this is not a popular way of looking at this, but it is my opinion. Not stating it as fact. It goes to the way I interpret the poem.

          When he says, “And take it in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk” I believe he is saying at the moment you are at WWWH, it is too early to go in the canyon. After getting to the point where you can put in the canyon, below the hoB, then you put in the canyon.

          All in my opinion. I know it is not agreeable to most, but it is the way I see it when looking at my search area. Then it makes sense.

          I know it seems crazy to many, but if you could see my search area, you would totally understand.

          In my humble opinion only,


        • JDA/Aaron: IMO, put in “below” the home of Brown is no less mystical than take it in the canyon “down.” If you are confronted with a binary choice (up/down, above/below), specificity clearly matters. I think it’s funny that so many people think “take it in the canyon down” isn’t a clue. I’m not saying it undoubtedly is, but what if WWWH is somewhere in the middle of some long canyon? Seems to me that “canyon down” vs. “canyon up” would make a significant difference. Same goes for put in below vs. put in above.

          • That is true Zap, now do believe up and down or below and above has to do with north or south, or a change in elevation, or something else?

          • I’m not Zap – but the answer is yes. it relates to N/S AND up/down AND elevation – all at the same time – JMO – JDA

          • Aaron;

            Let’s say a “river” runs basically North to South (Could be NNW to SSE as an example) so the N/S applies.

            It flows “Down hill (All do) so you take it DOWN the canyon. Thus the UP/DOWN applies.

            Flowing “Down the canyon” it looses elevation (7000′ down to 6500′ as an example) so elevation plays a part

            So, all three apply – JDA

          • zap,

            I believe “take it in the canyon down” is a clue. FF could have easily said “take it in the canyon up”. The would mean to start at the other end.
            Many canyons have roads, rivers, creeks, streams running through them and the very nature of a canyon has a loss or gain in elevation depending where you start.
            So taking it down indicates to go down canyon after you have found WWWH.

          • The truth table may not be as straight forward and a simple up / down or forward / backward or other. IMO

    • The poem can be solved well beyond its mention of hoB,
      without leaving one’s home. And one doesn’t need to
      “make it to the blaze” (walk/hike/climb) physically. But identifying it is important, and actually seeing it, while
      BOTG hiking, could be helpful.

      I don’t see steam in your avatar; steam is invisible to the human eye.

      • I have no idea what you are talking about. I saw steam just the other day coming out of a manhole in the street.

        Of course, you probably were’t addressing me 🙂


  50. After considerable lengthy contemplation of “Brown” possibly being a human just doesn’t make sense. Why would Forrest have another person in the poem that becomes more important than him and his treasure?
    Now I’m down to a place and/or a thing.

    • Kraft- correct! the place is a museum, and the thing is a log cabin.
      like an old bird house.

      i think.

        • Chasing fish to find a treasure. That -is- a unique concept. I doubt that many have tried that BOTG…because you would not actually be OTG you would be BITW. OMGness, I hope that translates in Portuguese. Anyway, that is neat that you found this adventure all the way in Brazil! Kind of like freedom…it’s contagious! Welcome to the Chase, where every idea is a good idea, until we learn otherwise.

          • In fact I’m just deciphering the poem.

            It’s the only thing I can do from here in Brazil.

            I think it’s just the challenge of opening the poem.

            As I do not suffer from the influence of language, I have to detail every word of the poem.

            Maps are all the same. Only the names change.

            And these names also have to search completely.

            This is being very cool and interesting.

          • Marcelo,
            I envy your situation… There is truly no bias involved as you work your way through the challenge. You really only have; the stories, the poem, and maps without all the other cluttering knowledge of people who live in the USA have, from simply living here, and attempt to look at this with a clear mind….
            I think fenn wrote the poem with that in mind, because in 3009 those searchers would probably need to do what you are doing… looking at it from the out-side in.

        • That would then lead one to think that his statement means hoB is right at the treasure, and, since that line in the poem is so early, it must not be a clue, and all he is doing is stating something in the future tense. It looks like you are trying to solve for clues? Some may agree with you, but I say that is a waste of time. Solve the poem, don’t worry about clues. You can’t solve all the clues, the info just is not out there. But you can solve for a spot. Using the words in the poem will not find the chest. The words must turn into something else that will allow you to solve for a spot. Find the instructions, and follow them.

          • I “affirmed”: HoB is a metaphor.

            You will never find a “house of Mr. Brown” related in the treasure.

            “I did not askfor clues.” “And I do not need it either.”

            I’m still in “WWWH” – which is difficult and can “also” be a metaphor.

            Open your mind to new ideas. Only then read the poem.

            It will do you good.

      • Aaron…The track record speaks for itself. This is probably where things have gone awfully wrong since the beginning. The possibility that someone “maybe” erroneously got to the 3rd and 4th clue does not mean they actually understood it at the time. Fenn has repeatedly spoken of using the words in the poem…and yet here we are.
        Folks are chomping at the bit with concrete solves and ideas…but the reality/odds is/are not in our favor.
        The person that digs deeper is going to get further…

        • Ken;

          The person that “DIGS DEEPER”??? You know that that can be taken a couple of different ways don’t ‘cha? Just ribbin’ Ya’ JDA

          • Ken –
            I 100% agree about the vastness and depth of the Chase but you shouldn’t expect anything less from f and a million dollar puzzle.

            For instance:

            There’s a piece of chapter in TFTW where f pretty much describes the solution, it’s very deep and very subtle, you just need to know when to look and what to look for.


          • Dejoka ~’There’s a piece of chapter in TFTW where f pretty much describes the solution, it’s very deep and very subtle, you just need to know when to look and what to look for.’

            Ok, sure… I would have to wonder though, Why would fenn do something like that; ‘describe ‘the’ solution’ in a another book 3 years later into the challenge. No matter how subtle.

            However, you peaked my curiosity when to said ‘when to look’… What was your impression of when?

            We know he hid the chest in summer, We have a good Idea that shoulda, coulda been done prior to his birthday in 2010 [ at age almost eight ]. leaving a couple of months window. and a few of us have ideas of which month and even days…

            Does this second book hint at hoB in your analysis of that chapter-?- if as you say, describes ‘the solution’?

          • Dejoka…that “for instance” sounds good…but I highly doubt Fenn described the solution in any of his books. He admits there are “hints” in his books…but he seems to always refer back to TTOTC in particular.
            Maybe…but not probable.
            I’ve read some of the chapters in his books more than I care to remember at this point…

          • Seeker –
            Why would f do that, you ask?
            What better way to gauge progress and provide confirmation to those who have gone through their paces. It’s all there for all to see, but remember, it is deep.


        • Totally agree Ken. I remember similar levels of confidence this time last year yet here we are. I can’t help but think everyone is missing something and it all revolves around the third clue.

          • It is the same every year. Hope is sweet and fuzzy, but I do not think it is going to find the treasure.
            On another note…Seeker is proposing over on “nine clues” that wwh is the biggest problem. I agree to a point. But what if a searcher is confident of wwh?

          • I don’t know how confident one can be without the chest but if I knew for sure what WWWH was I don’t think I would vacate the area without the chest.

          • If all I have are the words in the poem, I cannot find the chest. Pretty straight forward. Especially if all you need is in the poem.

          • Charlie,
            Two thoughts that relate to the same process [imo].
            “All the information to find “the chest” is in the poem”
            “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of “the location beforehand,” but sure for the one who did.” f

            While they seem the same… they also are different.
            One talks about “clues” that will “find” the “chest.” The other talks about the “location of the path.”
            IMO. the path, are the clues… the location is hints from the book.

            ~The “hints’ in the book are not deliberately place to aid the seeker, right? It might be because, it only hints to where we can locate the clues.
            ~Hints in the book will help with the clues, right? Well, many are looking at the book for answers to the clue references…IF… the book gives up the location of the clues, it helped, right?
            But it’s still our job to decipher the clues and place them to “a” place on a map… the good/right map and/or location for GE.
            Fenn knew where he want to hid the chest… 1/2 of the problem solved. But we need that piece of information to get started.
            fenn created a blueprint to the hidey ‘spot’ hence the avenue of a poem to present the blueprint/clues… that is how the chest is ‘found’ and not stumble upon.

            This, imo, is why so many are hanging their hats on the second book for a distance, a bathing hole, and other things unknown not present in the first book… they’re looking for ‘answers’ that may not be there.

            Of course, all that crap is an opinion, and simply another way of having straightforward; to be honest, but yet, not as simple as many think it should be.

            To add; we also have the line in the book prior to the poem… we would not know of 9 anything without it, would not think of a rainbow anything without it [ just from the words in the poem]
            It could be just as simple as… those are a couple of good hints.

            Nope… without something from the book, background or whatever, the poem is missing something. My idea is “the location beforehand” of all the clues.

  51. Hey, Charlie. Been a while since I’ve checked in here. Been busy working on my math permutation and validation issues. Needless to say, I was missing an important concept that provided an intractable barrier to success. Shoot me an email if you want to know more about my latest insight.


  52. I just had a new thought about what hoB may be.

    Since “home of” something could legitimately mean the place where the thing exists, here
    is an example: Pennsylvania is the home of coal mines.
    (Because they are in Pennsylvania)

    If the word “Brown” in the poem means literally the word “Brown”, then a place where the
    WORD “Brown” is would then be its home. For example, a dictionary could qualify — although it would also qualify as the home of thousands of other words. A sign could
    qualify, if the word “Brown” is on the sign. A map could also qualify, as well as could any location that has the word “Brown”. I’m talking about physical reality, such as a printed,
    painted, chiseled/carved/engraved version of the WORD “Brown”. And all of this — if this
    is what FF meant in the poem — can be regardless of whether “Brown” is the name of a person, animal, color, or whatever. Because I’m not talking about any of those THINGS
    having their home in a particular place; I’m talking about the WORD “Brown” having its home in a place somewhere.

    Where would the word “Brown” be — in a PHYSICAL representation — found? Please remember that if this treasure hunt was intended to be valid for more than a thousand years, that the word “Brown” — if I am correct — would be need to be physically findable
    (probably visually) by a searcher a thousand or so years from now. This suggests that
    the printed/engraved, etc. word “Brown”, in some form, should be somewhere in the Rockies, on the search path. I imagine that if there is a concrete monument containing
    the word “Brown”, in a location where not too much “real estate development” takes
    place, that the monument could still be there about a thousand years from now. But what kind of monument (for example) would be along the search path? I believe that the monument — if that’s what the thing is — would be referring to a person by the name of Brown, as a capital “B” is used. I favor the idea of a stone or concrete monument, rather than simply a (wooden, for example) more common type of sign . . . for the sake of the required durability qualification.

    Furthermore, this kind of thing could withstand the “test of time”, regardless of known
    history. A thousand years from now, the knowledge/awareness of whoever Mr./Ms. Brown is/was may be lost. But the (in stone) carved word/name “Brown” could still exist, and
    function as a visual cue to a searcher-for-the-Fenn-treasure. For this reason, I am now
    searching for evidence of a durable (i.e., stone, stainless steel, or similarly durable
    material) marker with the word “Brown” displayed on — or as part of — it. And, of course,
    the location of this marker must be along what appears to me to be a reasonable path of
    “locations” referenced by the clues of the poem. All IMO.

    • Hi TF;

      I’m sorry, II just can not agree. It just does not seem like what Forrest would have devised – A NAME (Brown) embossed on “Something”.

      Only one of the 7 wonders of the world exist today – the pyramids of Egypt. Sure, a few sculptures from the Egyptian era, from the Greek or Roman eras are still around. Will a mini-marker dedicated to a “Brown” that no one has been able to identify today, be around in 1,000 years?
      I kinda’ doubt it.

      New ideas and thoughts just might be what solves it in the end though, so “Keep a Thinkin’ – JDA

    • TF,

      I really like your concept of “home of Brown” being that the word Brown is found in it, like a dictionary, for instance. As JDA has already said, it seems unlikely that Mr. Fenn would tie that kind of thinking to a “trinket” of some kind. If this is part of the way to look at hoB, one has to wonder if it isn’t something a bit more grand. Hmmmm, more to chew on.

  53. Home = abstract idea of “his place”.
      “My home is where I” feel “safe.
      “A man’s home is his” kingdom. ”

    House = literal idea of “his place”
      “My house is very safe.
      “Nothing like a well-made house.”

    Home is not the construction

    House is the building

    HoB = can refer to its place of origin, or to its natural habitat.

    IMO – IDK

  54. John Brown (May 9, 1800 – December 2, 1859) was an American abolitionist who believed in and advocated armed insurrection as the only way to overthrow the institution of slavery in the United States. Brown first gained attention when he led small groups of volunteers during the Bleeding Kansas crisis of 1856. Dissatisfied with the pacifism of the organized abolitionist movement, he said, “These men are all talk. What we need is action—action!” In May 1856, Brown and his supporters killed five supporters of slavery in the Pottawatomie massacre, which responded to the sacking of Lawrence by pro-slavery forces. Brown then commanded anti-slavery forces at the Battle of Black Jack (June 2) and the Battle of Osawatomie (August 30).

    In 1859, Brown led a raid on the federal armory at Harpers Ferry

  55. Funny you mentioned painting a river. When we went fly fishing for the first time in Yellowstone the river that we were fishing in was very muddy. It was normally a good spot but because of recent rains mud slid down into the river from somewhere and made fishing impossible in that river. I thought, could home of Brown be mudslides into a river? I dismissed it though, thinking that mud could come from different locations at different times but who knows?

  56. ken on March 24, 2018 at 12:01 pm said:

    “It is the same every year. Hope is sweet and fuzzy, but I do not think it is going to find the treasure.
    On another note…Seeker is proposing over on “nine clues” that wwh is the biggest problem. I agree to a point. But what if a searcher is confident of wwh?”


    Or even, what if a searcher, in fact, does have the correct wwh? I suspect some do. What those searchers don’t have, is confidence. It is my opinion, that is why Indulgence still rests and waits. Which is what I am hoping to gain as I plug away at understanding the poem fully.

    Good luck to you all,

    Some Where West Of Toldeo

    • swwot…I believe that those who have “figured” the first two clues have failed to move in accordance to the directions in the poem on to clue # 3. I won’t blow smoke up anyone’s shorts and claim to know exactly why that is…however…I think I may have a really good idea.
      What I have done since rebooting in the middle of last year is to work on what Fenn’s plan may have been IF he had actually carried out his original plan to stay with the treasure. The logistics of that idea and how to avoid being located after the fact has given me a better set of ideas to work with. Given the fact that folks have been close to the treasure and figured the first couple of clues makes me question the logistics of how. My belief is…if the searcher has not figured out HOW, he/she cannot get to clue #3.
      good luck…and Harvey Goodwin

      • Ken,

        And how does the stench of a rotting body stay out of the nostrils of folks 200 or 500 feet away? A dead deer on the side of a road can be powerful smelly for quite a while. I would think the first few weeks after his passing would have been the easiest for finding Indulgence. Maybe that played into why he changed his mind? Don’t know, but it’s possible.

        • I agree – the first week or two would have attracted a bit of attention. Attention from carrion eaters as well as carnivores of many kinds and sizes. Not a pretty picture to envision, but nature is sometimes not pretty. JDA

        • Ken, swwot, all,

          That’s exactly what makes me think.

          Lots of people at 500 feet.

          How could he be hidden (dead) and still not noticed by the stench, if having people passing so close to him?

          It’s not a cave, it’s not a hole, it’s not a cliff …

          No need to climb cliffs, it’s not in the water (sling) …

          Children would be safe …

          It’s not a built structure …

          And if he have using the 15% of “not true” to it?

          Is it “really” the place where he was going to lay his bones?

          For think…

          • Maybe he would not have cared that much about what happens to the body. If he was going to leave something saying leave my bones and take the chest, paraphrasing, then perhaps that was on the assumption of someone finding his body from the smell. It wouldn’t have been from the poem.

        • Fenn has stated that the special place never changed. His plans did…So…there has to be a way for the old plan to be viable. Taking EVERYTHING into consideration; certain geographical characteristics, natural elements, wildlife, possible planning on Fenn’s part, among a few other things—-I can see a few different scenarios working just fine.

          • We will only know by seeing … in loco

            Maybe he had to prepare his deathbed before the fact.

            So it remains the same place, but without proper preparation.

            IMO and logic… ; )

          • Ken (and others),

            Without twisting words, maybe the plans that changed were how he was planing to release the poem/search parameters. Perhaps he was going to delay “publishing” for a period after he left this world, and realized that made Indulgence vulnerable. Once cured of cancer, he had more time to refine his plans. And now we have what we have. The place didn’t change, just the timing/releasing of the information/poem.

          • I have a rendezvous with death….
            I will not fail that rendezvous.
            pillowed in silk and scented down.

          • swwot…that “delayed plan” is the best case for the original plan. Even then…some logistical planning would need to be enacted given the facts. Even so…”The place” did not change…so…there has to be a viable plan to enable Non detection of his body…more importantly, his vehicle.

  57. Background: Last night I attended a physics demonstration/lecture by Dr. William Phillips, Nobel Laureate from 1997 (https://www.nobelprize.org/nobel_prizes/physics/laureates/1997/phillips-bio.html) where he mentioned Einstein’s Brownian Theory. So I wondered if anyone had researched this in any way as being the “home of Brown”. If one uses the search feature on hoD, you see that I am just the third person to mention it. It seems a reach from what we know of Mr. Fenn concerning specialized knowledge. But if any of you are a bit intrigued by what was discussed in passing in the lecture last night, check out Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownian_motion

    May every mention of Brown cause you to consider its home.

    • WhatIF Fenn tells us what knowledge might be usable… Even if we don’t have much knowledge of it… We would need to figure it out

      Let’s say constellation are involved with the idea if the right map… The same system used for centuries to move about. Will we cry fowl it we think it’s special knowledge? What about math and triangulation method?if the poem by way of a clues gives up what is needed.. is it still special knowledge?

  58. “Whiskey Flats = Home of Brown”

    LOL, maybe.

    I have long agreed with the Cheyenne (first post at the top of this page).

    Fenn has said the clues are like points on a map that you can follow to the chest.

    Brown is capitalized because it is a proper noun; the name of a particular point with a name that can be translated/converted to mean brown.

    Fenn has also said a child’s might have an advantage, probably because young minds make connection, are usually straight forward, and don’t over complicate thing. I have been trying to see everything this way.

    I came across a sign on Google Maps for the “Whiskey Flats” in Yellowstone not far south of my favorite WWWH.

    Whiskey is typically a brown liquid. And, a flat is also a single level apartment or home.

    Therefore, Home of Brown.

    I have found at least three more HOBs this why and even a “heavy loads and water high.” But, those seem extremely promising and I will be out there this summer. If they don’t turn out, I’ll post them after.

    • Hi Reap, I’m thinking that it would something large on the landscape, and would explain the connection, to no place for the meek. I think your on the right track.

    • Another possible consideration – Could Whiskey be something that the meek would want to stay away from – “No place for the meek” = Whiskey Flats??? JDA

  59. If Brown is a person, why does Forrest wants us to know this person? Why does he want us
    to research him or her? Why is this person important?

    Any thoughts?

    • It is my opinion that it is NOT a person. But then again, what do I know? – Probably NADA – JDA

    • Agree with JDA: Forrest’s Brown is not the proper name of a person. Reason? “Specialized knowledge.”

  60. IMO you don‘t even have to know nor find HoB… its significance is quite low in my solve… maybe that‘s why FF needed to capitalize Brown… I recognized HoB in my solve but only needed it to verify that I am (possibly) at the correct spot to put in…

  61. Cleveland….mt. Cleveland, mt; Cleveland, wy; cleveland, nm… f does get one thinking of ohio with his Toledo comment…makes one wonder.

  62. Someone was just saying we don’t share our ideas, so here’s one.

    Great Falls Montana

    The home of Brown University is Providence RI. We don’t have a Providence MT. We do have a University of Providence in Great Falls.

    But is there enough there, there for a right proper rabbit hole? Sure. If you look quickly down you have Lewis and Clark Forest. If you put in below you arrive at Rainbow MT. That’s where Rainbow Dam and therefore Rainbow Falls is.

    Anything else that would peek our interest? Like maybe even peek Zap’s interest. He’s a tough cookie.
    Well, the C.M. Russell Museum is there. That ties to Fenn’s collection and the Denver Art Museum.

    What do we think? Is this a right proper rabbit hole? (RPRH)


  63. I see many looking for HOB before beginning at WWWH & wonder why.
    It’s like looking for the blaze 1st.

    His poem tells me that HOB is not a person, a labeled place on any map anywhere & is only known to Forrest in his poem & mind.

    You can go ahead & search all the Brown places & names, Brown Mountain, Brown Creek, Molly Brown, Travis Brown, Joe Brown, Brown canyon, on all the maps available & search all of history as well but you will never find his answer to something he only knows what HOB means to him if you have gotten the 1st 2 clues.

    I don’t know what HOB is or where exactly it is but I suspect it’s on the Madison.

    For those of you that use Brown as a person or labeled place, that we can find on a map or anywhere, I think you should think again & go back to the beginning.

    • I have to agree with you on this one Jake. I think there is a hint in TTOTC as to HoB. But I could be wrong. I totally agree that it’s HoB in Forrest mind and imagination. It will take BOTG and imagination to find.


      • I don’t think there’s a hint in TTOTC to HOB.
        I’m pretty sure Forrest addressed this but then again there’s imagination. involved

  64. Did Forrest Fenn ever know Ranger Gary Brown from Yellowstone?
    Gary was about the same age, both were Air Force vets and both spent a great deal of time in the Montana/Yellowstone area.|
    Any help on this?

    • They were good friends & fished many times together.
      Dinner was offered by both in a mud pie sandwich and they both worked and played in their church.

      Just kidding Mark.
      I haven’t a clue & know his name has been mentioned here before.
      I personally don’t buy into any people as HOB or Brown as a persons name or a man made structure.
      I think the poem is all about Fenn.

      • Jake,

        I have a strong tendency to believe most of the poem is not about ff, except for Stanza 1 & 5. I do agree that HOB is not a person, fish, mammals or about structures, it is however a place.

        Just Say’n

        • Who wrote the poem?
          As I have gone alone in there
          Who the heck is “I” ?
          As Kit has gone alone in there….
          I need a break for a KitKat bar.
          It better be a place or I’m out.

          • Jake,

            We all know ff wrote the poem, and I did say that stanza 1 & 5 where about ff, the rest is about finding the treasure. Your being snarky again, why?

          • Don’t forget the 6th stanza CharlieM.
            “I” give you title to the gold.

            It’s not fair to categorize a whole stanza as being about him or you. Could be about both.

            Each line speaks for itself including:
            And leave MY trove for ALL to seek?

            I’ve gone over this a couple years back and helped me to dissect the poem to the roots if you will.

            I’m past that point in the Chase.

  65. Like the name says, you really are a Faulker.
    You had me going there for a second with the mud pie story.
    I agree with you about the HOB, but you have to keep your options open.
    Happy hunting!

  66. Any thoughts on the usage of the word “wise” in the poem?
    If the poem describes a specific path to the treasure, and the clues are in chronological order as stated by Forrest himself, then the word “wise” should be of utmost importance, as it is the last key word used in the poem before the discovery of the blaze.

    • To me the past tense nature of that line suggest that you should/could know the blaze prior to that line in the poem but in all honestly you might not realize it is the blaze until you reach that line of the poem.

    • Mark;

      Just something to think about. An owl relies on its livelihood by being able to spot its prey. Therefore, an owl (A wise old bird) finds a perch high above its hunting area. Is Forrest telling us to look “DOWN” on the blaze, like am owl does? – Just something to think about.

      Think about the use of past tense also. “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze…” If you were wise yesterday, or some other yesterday, and found the blaze… When might you have found the blaze yesterday? Maybe when reading TToTC? Did you spot something that, today with BotG, you subconciously filed away “Yesterday” – and now (today) recognize as the blaze? Just something to ponder – JDA

      • I often wonder if Forrest ever wonders if you have been in his mind JDA or if the two of you just happen to flock together.

        I especially like: “Therefore, an owl (A wise old bird) finds a perch high above its hunting area.”

        • Idle Dreamer;

          I can only HOPE that Forrest and I seem to think along similar lines. Forrest being the originator of the thought, and I only being smart enough to have figured out what he has said. JDA

          • JDA,

            I use the avatar of an owl just as symbolism of what it takes to be “wise” as in smart. The term to be wise like an owl has been around for quite some time.

            “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze” when I first read that line I thought of an owl. But the word wise is simply just that, being smart which has nothing to do with intelligence as we all are intelligent to be able to comprehend. No I didn’t look up the meaning, its just how I see it.

            Being smart enough to figure out the blaze.

            I do like your thoughts,

            Just Say’n

          • Thanks Charlie; I do like your “wise” avatar. Like you said, wise does NOT correlate to intelligent – at least most of the time – JDA

        • An owl collided with my fast-moving automobile. Not very wise, that bird. I think any thoughts about owls (related to this
          treasure hunt) are like rabbit holes, and should be avoided.
          As always, IMO.

      • I believe a particular location or geological formation near the blaze has a name that is synonymous or related to the word “wise”.
        “Sage” or “Owl” (as you have mentioned) are both possibilities.
        I am leaning more towards “sage” at this time, as it is a popular synonym for wise, and is also specifically mentioned by Forrest in his description of the surroundings of the blaze (“I smell sage”).
        Either way, I think the word “wise” is being overlooked as a clue.
        Happy Hunting!

        • Mark- iv’e known a few owls in my life…how in the heck they got to be known as wise is beyond me….none of em can get a day job.

          • dodo,

            How’s the unemployment search workin’ for ya? LOL

            I still lean towards “wise” as referring to some sort of convergence, as in Y’s. IMO

          • Fennatical….LOL I have a job, I manage a Kentucky Fried Chicken. LOL

            why is this so funny?

  67. Very important info in my mind here and I want other opinions and please try to debunk.

    If “Put in” is used as a nautical or water term or reference in the poem which I think it is we must vision lakes, ponds, streams, creeks, streams etc…

    Why would it matter where we put in after going in the canyon down?

    Say the canyon down took us to a lake and we have to get across the lake to a specific area.
    Would it really matter where we “put in” on the lake? NO!
    It only matters where we draw out cause the canyon down took us there already.

    Same scenario for rivers, streams, creeks etc…

    I want some other possibilities within the defined limits of nature only.
    No numbers, codes, deciphers and I will exclude “Not far, but too far to walk” as a clue.

    It doesn’t matter where you “put in”. It only matters where you draw out.

    • @Jake re: put in below….1) anywhere else the water in the creek is to deep or to swift, it’s any easy wade/shallow below 2) above HoB would not help you find ‘your creek’ . IMO

      • Cholly,
        So you need to “put in” the creek or waterway where it is not to deep and swift? I don’t think “Put in” refers to walking , wading or walking.
        It refers to a floatable device.

        • Jake F

          On a ship “put out” means leave the shore and “put in” means to dock.

          I told you that like 3 years ago.

          So as Seeker would agree it is the waters that take it in the canyon down and put in below the home of Brown.

          The waters dock or disappear or in some way put the in.

          IMO as relates to using put in as a nautical term and in a solution that relies on movement down or into a canyon or such.


    • You are right–The poem tells you where you go next Your draw out…In my opinion he is telling you ,you can walk if you want to but I suggest you Put In below home of Brown..I have been waiting for over a year to go back and finish my solve..I was hoping JDA or you or someone else would find it by now..If not We hope to go finish my solve Boots on the ground in 2 weeks..We are battling forest fires and smoke in our area-Safe where I live so far,but lots of Evacuees in the area…Safe Travels to ALL

      • Thanks R–B,
        You need to worry and take care of you and your close ones well being than worry about the chest at this time.

        • Thanks Jake–We were actually supposed to be on site today had to postpone a couple weeks hoping things start to settle down here–We won’t leave till some of this thick smoke settles down..Safety First for sure

    • Hypothetically: Could it be that you are driving in a canyon downstream parallel to the river. It would matter if there is class 6 sections on the river, you’d want to put in below them.

      • Seeing it’s “too far to walk”. I can visualize you driving down the canyon downstream parallel to the river and possibly ending up at a lake, river or stream.

        I don’t think Fenn would need instructions in the poem for someone to avoid class 5 rapids. I know some have met their demise but uncommon sense lives on for another day.

    • I think you aren’t aware where Joe Brown had his homestead.

      The new road was being built by James George across the river, so Joe didn’t have a driveway; he had a boat and a launch.

      The poem line is not a direction, but a place, I think.

      • I’m well aware of most of the Browns whether they are geographical, structures or people in all the 4 states and many have been in multiple states Muset.

        It is a place as you state but has nothing to do with a person other than Fenn and it doesn’t matter what “Brown” is. It only matters where you take or draw out.
        Doesn’t matter where you “Put in” as long as you do after the canyon down. Read what I said and visualize in your mind and if you are a logical thinker, you will get it.
        It’s logic at its best.

        • Ok Jake. I re-read. Your question was “why would it matter where we put in after going in the canyon down?”

          I believe the canyon down is not a clue by itself. The home of Brown above the boat launch in the canyon down is all one clue, IMO. Only clue number 2, too.

          I think people in India could get there from their chesterfields and Helen Keller already wrote a book about it. I’m getting all my ideas from you and Helen but you guys disagree about the beginning bits.

          • Sorry, not Helen but Rudyard Kipling. He wrote about that spot. He was right there fishing just across the river.

    • Jake;

      Aren’t “Put-in” and “Draw-out” the same thing? If I am in or on the water, and I leave the water, in nautical terms, I am “Putting-in.” If I am standing on the shore, I might consider the person “Drawing out.” or “Getting out” of the water.

      So, “Put in below the home of Brown” = Get out of the water after you pass a place or spot called or that is “home of Brown” – whatever that is.

      “Home of Brown is merely a “Marker” – an identifiable spot that let’s you know when it is time to leave the water. Like, get out of the water once you pass the third tree, past the bridge. Anyway, that is how it works for me. – JDA

      • They are opposites JDA.
        I should not have to tell you that and gives me a “tell” on your thinking process. You can put in anywhere but you need to take out at a certain place. Think about that.

        • Jake;

          I agree. Yes, you can put in upstream, and draw out down stream.

          Or, as I said – If you are ON the water, you can put in by getting out of the water. If you are onshore looking at the boat, the boat is Drawing in as it approaches the shore.

          We are saying the same thin g Jake – we just express it differently – JDA

        • Jake;

          Said another way – I can “Put-in” the boat into the water.
          I can then “Draw Out” the boat when I am finished with it.

          If I am IN the boar, I can “Put-IN” to shore – meaning, I can head to shore. Once there, I can “Draw it out” of the water – JDA

          • You guys are missing the point.
            I’ll say it again and break it down in simpler terms.
            We are talking about waterways, Rivers, streams, creeks, lakes & ponds.

            Is it more important where you put in or where you take or draw out in the poem?

            If you put in at the wrong place you can still get out at the right place in these situations.

            If you put in the right place and get out at the wrong place, will you be able to get the next clue???

            I can’t “put” it any simpler than that.

            What’s your answer(s)?

          • LOL Jack is all you’re asking is :
            ~If you put in the right place and get out at the wrong place, will you be able to get the next clue???
            NO… You need to be precise following the clues.
            So disregard my other post.

        • Jake et all – here in “inflatable device” land, where a river runs right thru town, we call a “put in” the place where you launch your boat/raft/canoe/paddle board/inner tube/air mattress. The “take – out” is where you get off of the body of water. The trick is, one person’s “put -in” may well be another person’s “take-out”. Also, colloquially, as you are floating down the river, it is not uncommon to use “put-in” interchangeably with “take-out”. Both put-ins and take-outs are fairly well defined locations; generally you need road or trail access, flat water, or an eddy. The bigger the eddy, the better. I think that muddies the water pretty well.

          • For the most part I agree with Sandy regarding the more colloquial meaning of “put in”: it is where you would launch a boat, raft, canoe, kayak, etc.

            However, why assume that Forrest’s “put in” has anything to do with a water entry, or indeed water at all?

      • I concur that hoB is probably a marker. You don’t need to actually get to it (unless an earlier clue took you there); you just need to know where it is as a point of reference for the “put in”. Like a blaze. (But probably not THE blaze. Although maybe?)

        As for “Put in” itself, I have seen the term (in non-Chase contexts) used as a point to put a raft in a river. (With a paired “take out” or “draw out” further downstream.) I have heard it used in the sense of setting up camp, as in “put in for the night”. I have seen it used in the sense of a rest stop, as in “put in for lunch, then hit the road again”. But I am inclined to think of it simply as a point where you change your mode of transportation, whatever that might be. And, of course, for taking a moment to admire the view.

        Perhaps the “put in” is simple where Forrest parked his car and started walking. Find the hoB and park below it (or south of it).

        And if you are looking for a “draw out” to pair it with, maybe you do that “at the end”, anywhere on the left side. (“The end is ever drawing nigh.”)

        Or, I suppose it could be a fishing hole. “Put a line in the water.” That might even make sense if Brown refers to trout. But I don’t think it refers to trout. My feeling is that “Brown” might be a proper place name, but something that *substitutes* for Brown (or home of Brown) either literally or metaphorically. Like “Tanner Overlook”, “Umber Peak”, or something like that. (I just made those up, btw.)

        Meh, whatever. I think I’m more confused now than when I started typing this comment. I think I’m late for my appointment with Sand Mann.

        • Hi Ray: so many of your thoughts in this post match mine:

          “I concur that hoB is probably a marker. You don’t need to actually get to it (unless an earlier clue took you there); you just need to know where it is as a point of reference for the “put in”. Like a blaze. (But probably not THE blaze. Although maybe?)”

          100% agree.

          “As for “Put in” itself, I have seen the term (in non-Chase contexts) used as a point to put a raft in a river.”

          That is the more common interpretation for a kayaker or white-water rafter — basically the opposite of a sailor who spends most of his time at sea.

          “But I am inclined to think of it simply as a point where you change your mode of transportation, whatever that might be.”


          “Perhaps the “put in” is simple where Forrest parked his car and started walking. Find the hoB and park below it (or south of it).”

          That is precisely my take.

    • You are in a way correct where you leave the water is ultimately the relevant part. The issue however is some interpretations of the following clue or clues may only be in the proper context if you put in at the specified location.

      Hypothetical example: Lets say home of brown is a river (If I recall you think it is a lake but you did ask for other bodies of water as well) and you interpret “below” as south. Several creeks may feed into this river at different points from different banks. Assuming you also interpret “no paddle up your creek” to mean exit the river and walk up the first creek you encounter.

      If you were to choose the wrong bank (or wrong side of the lake) or be too far up or down stream you may not encounter the intended creek as the first one.

      Assuming the creek in the poem is both singular and of any relevance, in a situation where multiple creeks exist the only way to differentiate between them is based completely on where you are approaching from.

      But I suppose if you had already sorted that all out ahead of time on google maps or something I can’t imagine BOTG that it matters where you physically put in.

    • I was sitting on may sofa, watch AGT, when a whirl of air rushed by, hearing a whisper of a sound … Ppleeaaseee ttrrrry toooo deebuuunk.

      Ok Jake, you only want it to be a ‘nautical’ term. You only want it to be in a canyon because as you assume ~ ‘…we take it in the canyon down…’ And you want it to be only involving waters of any sort, as well as, and you only want to use the two words “put in”… I mean, don’t we need to consider “below” as something other than a water entry or exit location? Anyways…

      First bunker obstacle; “…And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again…” [ take it as you wish] I’m not going down the canyon.

      Second bunker obstacle. You simply need to know you’re on the other side of said lake [water obstacle]. “Put in” may just mean – after the water or on dry land. ***Which is what I think you were implying. So # 2 is not really a debunker as much as an alternative to “put in” to mean “go to”
      {I don’t understand this need to be “in” water during any part of the search }

      Third bunker obstacle; “from there” It’sNPFTM… From hoB, right?
      “the end is drawing nigh”.. is stated after NPFTM. If [meek] is a location of its own, how would “drawing” work with the idea of hoB… wouldn’t “from there” mean from hoB -*to*- NPFTM -then- at the meek place, the “end is ever drawing” [meek city]-?- not from the hoB reference?
      Or do you consider the idea of water travel/involvement to be from hoB right to HLnWH?

      LOL it’s hard to debunk working with limited info.

      If I’m on one side of a river [lets say at WWH], and “not far” is the other side I wish to be at… yep, it might be “too far to walk” around, but it is where I want need to be at… so I walk around it, line of thinking.
      [regardless of the distance, which could be {for example} 500 hundred feet in the process, but only 50 feet on the other side of the river from where I was]
      This keeps the ‘idea of a nautical term’ reference to be ‘water involvement’ for “put in” and as a ‘natural feature’ of a water location – But do we need to book a passage for it?

    • I get what most of you are saying and some agree although it’s a conditional situation.

      My bottom line is that “Put in below the home of Brown” is not as important as the first clue and really doesn’t matter where you put in but definitely matters where you draw out.

      I was watching Columbo “Requiem for a Falling Star” when I saw “The Seekers Book Shop” while you were watching that talent show.

      Never stop asking questions.

      • Jake Faulker,

        The idea way above on this thread you said, ” I will exclude “Not far, but too far to walk” as a clue.”
        I think is a big mistake to exclude because that is a clue, you have to go “not far” in this day and age not far could be about 5 miles and “too far to walk” may be about 10 miles, that is for a normal person in average shape.

        “put in” does not necessarily mean a nautical water reference, but more than likely a term F would use as a pilot as landing. But “put in” could also mean down in elevation from the canyon to the lowest elevation point.

        What I can see is one would travel by car down the canyon and below the HOB, and your saying F had to have parked his car and go by raft into a lake to proceed on with the other clues. I highly doubt F would use a raft and expect searchers to use a raft. I guess as you are implying that F drove to the put in place, got in a raft, landed the raft and drove again to the hiding place.

        Here on HoD under “Cheat Sheet” says otherwise with, Q: Were both trips made on the same day/date? “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.f”. This shows he used a car then walked twice to hide the TC.

        So I would say that what you are presenting is flawed.

        Just Say’n

        • Hey Charlie
          I got a question.
          Forrest stated he completed both trips in one afternoon.
          Does that timeline include the drive to the parking lot and the subsequent walk, or just the walking portion of the trip?
          I believe this piece of info is very important in determining the search area better. Any thoughts?

          • This should answer your question: (6/19/2014)

            “Also, you’ve mentioned on multiple occasions that it took two “trips” to secret the chest and contents to a very special place. Perhaps someone has already asked this, but I’ve not found an answer yet posted or video recording that contains an answer. Forgive me if this is redundant, but were both trips made on the same day/date? Not to be anal, but that would be one spinaroo of the giant ball we call Earth that constitutes a single 24-hour day to its humble inhabitants.
            Thanks so much.
            Kind Regards,
            Joe, you make this thing so complicated. Reminds me of the reason I don’t like meetings. I hope you don’t belong to a PTA someplace. I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.f

      • Jake, how would this scenario fit anything other than taking a boat out on a lake, or a pond?

        • You don’t actually have to physically take a floatable device anywhere in his poem.
          Just follow the clues in your imagination and see where it takes you and then park your sedan and hike to find the last few clues clue.

          BTW, a lake or pond has been eliminated from my solve.

      • I just happen to have one question, Jake.
        It involves two comments [paraphrasing for time]
        ~If you know what hoB is ypu’d go right to the treasure. [interview]
        ~ If you know hoB, why be concern with WWH [reverse engineering question]

        You stated; ‘My bottom line is that “Put in below the home of Brown” is not as important as the first clue and really doesn’t matter where you put in but definitely matters where you draw out.’

        Why would hoB not be just as important as the first clue?
        I mean, in your original inquiry all you want to be considered was the line with “put in”. I think by the ATF’s above hoB could be just as important. if not more important than previous clues… if you know what it is. Apparently several, more than several, have solved the first two… didn’t seem to help much, did it?

        You have to wonder if hoB was / is / when solved… will that searcher be able to find the trove.

  68. Jake,

    I believe number 5 below may help WRT water. In that sense it’s opposite what you might think.

    “put in
    1. Make a formal offer of, as in a court of law. For example, He put in a plea of not guilty. [Mid-1400s]
    2. Interpose, interject; see put in a good word; put one’s oar in.
    3. Spend time at a location or job, as in He put in three years at hard labor, or She put in eight hours a day at her desk. [Mid-1800s]
    4. Plant, as in We put in thirty new trees. [Early 1800s]
    5. Enter a port or harbor, as in The yacht will put in here for the night. [Early 1600s]
    6. put in for. Request or apply for something, as in I put in for a raise, or John put in for department supervisor. [c. 1600]”


  69. Hey Jake, I’m guessing the effort wasn’t worth the cold? How long have you been working on this?

  70. Hi Ray Henry,

    I liked your idea about pigments. I’ve always wondered about some of the pigments mentioned in the book “lapis lazuli sky” “waters deepened into cobalt” and wondered if they were the right pigments for the scenes described (I’m not an artist or painter). Here’s some Brown tones, not sure if they are of any use to anyone but just in case: (I hope this formatting works)

    Sienna Lake Lake MT Stillwater 45.259575 -109.9995775
    The Mummy Summit MT Gallatin 45.4471543 -110.9424428
    Mummy Mountain Summit WY Goshen 42.1833013 -104.6407945
    Ochre Springs Spring WY Park 44.6029964 -110.3974228
    Van Dyke Gulch Valley MT Beaverhead 45.3557579 -112.7850281

    • None of those fit my current solve, but they do mesh with my line of thinking on the subject. Certainly viable possibilities.

  71. Well, today is Forrest’s Birthday – So I am going to give the search community a Birthday present. My present may be of little or no value, or it might be valuable to some.

    As most of you know, I take three laps through the poem for my “complete solve”.

    For me, in Lap #1, hoB is “Home of Buffalo.” – A Place where Buffalo once roamed – “Oh give me a home where the Buffalo roam…”

    In Lap #2, hoB is “Home of Brown trout.” – A place where Brown trout spawn. A lovely pool that Forrest might well have fished on more than one occasion.

    In Lap #3, hoB is “Home of Brown sedimentary rocks” -“…and even though the rusty old iron thing marked the tail of my britches pretty good with a heavy brown color, it was worth it.” f

    “Brown’s Valley Man” also plays a role in my solve, but in a less direct way.

    Hope that this helps someone to think in a different way – Happy Hunting, and “Happy Birthday” Forrest – JDA

    • I don’t look at it as 3 laps, it could be 3 layers and may be the same.
      I have also thought “Oh give me a home where the Buffalo roam” could be HOB.
      The individual 9 clues could have multiple meanings to each clue but you would still need the first to unlock the others.

      “Brown’s Valley Man” could be categorized as specialized knowledge by some other hypocrites here by means of searching history on Google but US history is different and helps to sculpt what this country is today.

      But let’s face it, HOB can be all of those things and more or less and I think F only knows and we will only know when the time comes.

    • *sigh* I’m not yet sold on the multiple layers approach, but you did say something that gave me an alternate possible hoB from my current WWWH that is metaphorically almost a 180 degree flip from what I’ve been working. It reminded me of something I read in TToTC.

      I guess it is time to do a fork and add another “working solve” to my notebook. 🙂

      • The only reason I think it may be multiple layers but I’m not sold on it either completely is Forrest may have given himself a way out in the poem to cover his specialized knowledge statement.
        BTW where are those 2 “specialized knowledge” statements?

        Where’s the quote police when we need them?

        • Question posted 6/27/2014:
          Is any specialized knowledge required to find the treasure? For instance, something learned during your time in the military, or from a lifetime of fly fishing? Or do you really expect any ordinary average person without your background to be able to correctly interpret the clues in the poem? ~mdavis19
          No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f

          Not the “quote Police” – but here is one – JDA

          • Where’s the other quote?
            I thought there was 2.
            May be I got double vision in the brain.
            Thanks guys.

            So, what exactly is specialized knowledge?

            If it’s something that has to be looked up on the internet, then it might be.


          • I only know of the one quote that specifically calls out specialized knowledge. However, he alludes to it in Scrapbook 62:

            “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, … will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map. f”

      • MW Q&A (6/27/2014): “Is any specialized knowledge required to find the treasure? For instance, something learned during your time in the military, or from a lifetime of fly fishing? Or do you really expect any ordinary average person without your background to be able to correctly interpret the clues in the poem? ~ mdavis19”

        Forrest: “No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure. f”

        • I’m curious how y’all feel about knowledge learned by boots on the ground. Everywhere I’ve been have been all sorts of brown signs, and information and I kiosks telling about specific events in history of the area. While one could learn the same information reading history books or googling, dues the fact that this information is laid out just waiting for someone to come and read it make it now general knowledge?

          • There is nothing better than BOTG after 6 clues.
            Just heavy loads and water high and the blaze need boots IMO.

        • Meg M: question: when you say brown signs, are you referring to their color? If so, consider that Brown is capitalized in the poem.

          • Yes I was referring to their color. Though not as a reference to the Brown of the poem.

      • A multi layer idea is not what JDA has. I’d call it a helix theory. He is creating new location over and over having [ at one time 9 x 9 ] clue’s references being in many different areas/places.
        A layer idea IMO is more stacked than screwed… The stack term means; the place[s] is/are the same, just seen differently… depending on the present time line.

        My idea of a multi layer idea would be of the past combined with the present. The kicker is, the present is always changing. A searcher in 500 years, a 1000 or beyond sees the same location slightly different. Kinda throws off the “Precisely” following the clues.
        So the need to know the poem is talking about the past and present may actually be in the poem; Riches [knowledge] new [present] and old [past]. Right smack in-front of the first clue…

        The idea is, the clues represent the landscape as it once was to what it is today, while using both landscapes to follow the clues [ imagination is needed at this point ] This idea is of two journeys [ for lack of a better term ] and works in any present time if known of the past.
        “a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.”

        LOL ya’ll can call that special knowledge if ya like, but I’m not the guy who stated it.

        • To me, a helix is just a form of layering, like a stack. If you look at a split-washer from the hardware store, it forms a full circle in two dimensions but the start and end points don’t touch in three dimensions. If you stack a bunch of them together all oriented the same way, and glue the ends that touch, what you get is a spring (helix). Each washer is one layer in the helix.

          I mean, I see what you are trying to say, but it feels like a difference without a distinction to me. Multi-layer, stack, or helix, it just depends on what a single layer looks like before you start stacking.

  72. Thanks for the intel JDA. Much appreciated.
    So if I’m reading that correctly, he spent the afternoon walking.
    Very interesting.

    • I don’t think that is true, Aaron.
      If everyone knows about bicycles but not everyone can ride one, Is riding considered special knowledge, and if so, when we learn to right, does it be come common knowledge?
      The thing is fenn gave us suggestion of knowledge to use; the book [TTOTC] GE and or a map. If we learn something that is needed from the book… maybe the idea of Geography, is geography to be considered special knowledge-?- if fenn never made the comment?

      Zap post another quote that seems to give the idea of what is in lines with knowledge ~ specialize or not ~
      “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, … will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map. f”

      Although, when I read this from Zap’s post I cracked up laughing because “codes and ciphers’ from the original ‘full’ comment went poof! LOL.

      I mean, if the solve has anything to do with art, flying, archeology, celebrities, presidents… I’m double helix.

      • Seeker: I only edited the quote because it has been posted so many times that everyone knows it by heart. I’ve never used ciphers in my solutions. I’m also diabolically opposed to the use of numerology: stupid crap where 123 and 456 both “equal” 6. However, if you consider A=1, B=2, etc. to be a code, then I suppose I could be accused of applying specialized knowledge for some hints.

        • Are we ever going to see the result?
          I mean, if it works for wwwh, would it not work for all the clues?

        • Seeker: I don’t understand your question, so I’ll take a stab at an answer that seems like it might be relevant. My WWWH is derived from nothing more than the first 5 lines of the poem, a map, and very general (kid-would-know-it) knowledge. No math, no codes.

          • I one time you implied you may share your theory… after your last search was done…
            ‘My WWWH is derived from nothing more than the first 5 lines of the poem, a map, and very general (kid-would-know-it) knowledge. No math, no codes.’

            Would you now share how it was accomplished? No need to give up the exact findings… just make up an example we can follow /understand what was done.

          • Hi Seeker: I’m still intending to honor that promise — more specifically, that I would reveal my keyword along with sufficient evidence that even the most pessimistic of searchers would have to conclude it’s correct. I haven’t gone on that final search yet, nor do I want to telegraph precisely when that search will take place. (But obviously there isn’t that much time left in the search year.)

          • Zap,
            Allow me to clarify. I personally am not looking for your explanation of a solve…
            Only the ‘process’ of your first clue… regardless of a ‘key’ word, unless to two work hand in hand.
            You have stated, and I forget what is is call, a type of deciphering method. I’m more curious as how ‘you’ put it to use… and has you said, using the first stanza.

            To be honest… the idea of such accuracy information that would give up WWWH clue’s reference to an exact location… in my book is a clue itself. So this is one reason I’m asking.
            I would also think that this ‘system’ should apply to the entire process of solving the poem’s remaining clues or at least to or near the location of the blaze.

            So it makes me wonder how the poem can be straightforwards. Use this type of method for only clue one, and not the others /or most. And should it be used for the others, why hasn’t it worked for you?

            So there are some questions/inquiries [without knowing exactly how your process goes to work with] that you can dwell on, when your ready… after your next trip.

      • Seeker, if I had to guess I would say anything most people learn as a child could be considered common knowledge. Being able to ride a bike, and reading being two of those things. He also has mentioned GE. I would guess being able to open GE and look at the Geography that is presented to you would not be specialized knowledge. If you have to do a ton of research on Geography that seems a bit much. These are my thoughts on the subject.

        • Aaron,
          I see special knowledge as an advanced level of knowledge on any subject.

          We all know of stars and planets and some have even studied them more closely then others… special knowledge would be an astrology professor type, NASA type etc.
          But doesn’t “comprehensive” mean the same-?- knowing all the elements involved in whatever the field of study ?

          Or is the idea of comprehensive knowledge to mean; just being able to understand… regardless of a common knowledge on a subject.

          So my point is; we only know of one thing that fenn stated ‘might’ help. [other tan the book and mapping] Even if many may not know it well… wouldn’t understanding the subject more [ learning more of it ] be more helpful? Does that now become ‘specialized knowledge’ just by learning more about a subject? [geography]

          Personally this is why I think fenn added to the Q&A ~ he has no expectations… it us to us to figure what is needed to understand, learn about if we should need to be more understanding of a subject that might help with the poem… yet again, so far all we have is; the book [ and who hasn’t studied the snots out of that] Maps and or GE [ heck I think the world’s average temperature jump a degree with all the GE mapping being done ] So now we have / had the suggestion of geography… should we look into it?

          • The comprehensive knowledge of Geography in the Rocky Mountains comment is an interesting one. Comprehensive and specialized are not the same however. Since the poem has plenty of geographical references than it is easy to assume that people should gain some knowledge about Rocky Mountain Geography.

          • Comprehensive;1. complete and including everything that is necessary.
            Secondary definition; Comprehensive; relating to understanding.

            Specialized Knowledge’ an advanced level of knowledge or expertise [normally through training, research, education etc]

            They seem to be the same to me Aaron, with one ‘slight’ exception… Comprehend means; grasp mentally, understand, encompass.
            In this case, “understanding” doesn’t give the element of how much “advance level” might be needed.

            Basically saying, we don’t need to become an ‘expert’ on any given subject, but advancing our own personal knowledge is different from one to another.
            Example I know math, but if I have to count over 20… I need to call a friend. That’s where Charlie come in..lol

    • To me, the opposite of “specialized knowledge” is “general knowledge”. It’s not necessarily information that everybody *does* know (that would be common knowledge), but it is information that the average person has a reasonable *likelihood* of knowing, or at least knowing where to look to learn it.

      For example, the typical non-fisherman would probably not know to look in fishing regulations for a definition of “warm waters”, but could reasonably be expected to know (or imagine) that warm waters “halt” at a waterfall, or at the rim of a cooking pot, etc. “Warm waters” in a fishing context is a specialized term because you pretty much have to already be involved in that activity to know that such a term exists in that activity, but the waterfall and the cooking pot are images that would be conceptually attainable by just about anyone with an active imagination and an elementary school education.

      • Ray: that the ideas in your posts so often align with mine AND you are drawn to Montana suggests to me that you may have figured out the same WWWH I have, or at least have the kind of mindset that you will.

        • Yes, I have. I have also looked up every other word in the poem in the dictionary. And in my thesaurus. And looked for metaphors and similies using those words. That was practically my first step in my Search for Indulgence.

          My late wife was a librarian, a writer, a micropress publisher, and just generally a word geek at different times over the years. It kind of rubbed off on me.

          Oddly enough, the parts of my solve that I have the most confidence in were inspired from TToTC, not any dictionary or thesaurus.

          Here is a fun tidbit that hasn’t proven at all helpful for me, but that might be useful to someone else:

          One possible meaning of “marvel” is “to gaze”. If you “gaze gaze”, that’s the poetic equivalent of a “doubletake”, such as when you realize you just saw something odd, so you take a second look to see what it was. And “look quickly” can be a glance, which gives you 3 “looks” in a row in the poem. That’s a lot of looking for just four words of a 6-stanza poem.

          • Ray,
            All those words can be considered as ‘fix’ or to study, or as we have been told “observe”
            Look; with fixed eyes
            Gaze; steadily
            Down; moving or at a point further along the course of (something).
            While quick[ly] can mean; prompt to understand, think, or learn; intelligent.

            All with the idea of having “been WISE and FOUND the blaze”… to be wise and to have found, is a discovery; learning of something, understanding… and not so much just coming across something.

            It has also been suggested the need to “learn” WWWH.
            It has been suggested [ in a Q&A ] to look up word[s] “several” and see that ‘most don’t understand the words we use everyday’
            fenn also has stated; ‘ He~ looked up words and definitions of words, changed them, rebooted… It [poem] turned out exactly like I wanted it.’
            And implies; a/the word that is key to be tight focus on.

            Now while the book can help with the clues… are the words in the book only common, present, simple usages?
            Or is it our job to ‘try and simplify the clues’ ~ maybe by understanding a poem has freedom of multiple meanings of those words [meaning different to the common idea [example quick[ly] to mean fast only] and/or more than one usage for any single word or phrasing].
            We Also have Tarry which mean “to linger” and scant; small or short amount [idea]… both of these can imply the possible need to take time and observe/learn [ marvel gaze ] from the point of the Blaze… which we have “discovered” by knowing what we should do with it or do at this point in the solve.
            fenn talks about ingredients, tells us [ through ATF’s ] you need all the ingredients in the correct order. As well as ” think the right thought ”
            I can’t fathom why some choose to ignore the idea of learning meanings and their usages [ in a poem, nevertheless ] in the attempt to solve the challenge.

            Fenn has stated; “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking… People have figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”

            All taking wrong turns, or skipping clues,
            Or could it be… the just didn’t *understand* what they read?
            Example of thought;
            Q~ Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman

            A~ *There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues.* There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. fRM’s

            Add another ATF about; ‘all the words in the poem were deliberate’… and the time spent creating the poem…
            LOL I just don’t understand why some bark about ‘no dictionary’ [meanings and usages] idea… but would rather chop up words into letters for a deciphering mode.

            Just an alternative line of thinking, while attempting to utilize information we have received through the ATF’s
            *apologies for the long post folks… but I just can blurt out a fortune cookie post… I only attempt to explain the thought process with examples, and not just claim; No dictionary.

            Closing of a rambling and rumbling commentary

          • JDA,
            I’ll make a short comment… lol
            Look up wise and quick[ly]… both with synonyms; “clever”; apply ideas

            Now read the line; “If you been wise [clever] and found the blaze” … with the addition of “look quickly down your, quest to cease, but tarry scant with marvel gaze.

            What is possibly needed to be ‘applied wisely’ as we read the next line”s addition, as instructed?

            Fenn stated if you can find the blaze the distance [from the blaze to the chest] would be obvious.
            So is there a reason a hidden chest that should not be stumbled upon for hundreds of years be simply at a marker of sorts? [Especially when tens of thousands are out looking and searching every blaze they come to, and surely more, as years roll on].
            Do we need to use the blueprint and “apply” it to the final task? [Most of it not all of stanza 4] Do we even need later parts of the poem to be applied here as well?

            Instructions can be found in the words IF you can wisely understand how all the deliberate words in the poem connect.
            I guess, at this point in the poem we can just try to run, don’t walk, get the heck out of there, jogging with a 42lb 10″ sq box. [as some suggest there interpretation is]
            “your quest to cease” doesn’t say to me that the task is done…it’s a purpose… to do something to complete the quest, and suggested/stated between the idea/instruction of the task at hand.

            Otherwise, we might as well just stop reading the poem at “found the blaze”

            Well, that was kinda scant… in comparison to my other posts.

          • Seeker;

            I agree, there is more to be done AFTER you have found the blaze. I believe I know what the blaze will look like. I must “Look quickly down” = look BELOW the blaze… “Your quest to cease” = and my quest will end.

            “But tarry scant with marvel gaze” = Don’t just look at the tarry scant, do something with it (and we know what that is) – “Just take the chest and go in peace.” Taking the chest from where it is will require more than just picking it up, but once done, depart, peaceful in knowing that the last riddle in the poem has been solved. JMO – I hope that I know what to do IF I am lucky enough to find Indulgence where she is secreted –

            Thanks for the thoughts – JDA

  73. ok Jake, u do ask the right questions. this is my opinion and mine alone. I ‘m not looking for rebuttals, so please don’t fuss over my ideas. Please.
    you’re at WWWH. you leave and travel canyon down. you pass HOB, and began looking for a put in place. you come to a bridge and decide this would be a good place to put in, but its too shallow and filled with heavy loads, but u notice a road/trail that runs alongside this creek, so you turn , and follow the creek searching for no place for the meek., and then you wake up.
    In this scenario,
    Began it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk, is the first clue. the second clue is put in below the home of Brown. everyone wants to make the hob the clue, but the clue is “put in”, because this is a departure from your previous path, going down the canyon., and is water involved, but requires no water craft or hip boots.
    maybe this will help, good luck- Emmett
    everyone is entitled to their opinion., but my solve is fixed, and needs no helpful corrections. thanks anyway.

    • I really like how you paced out that story, i could honestly picture myself walking along the very area that i just can’t shake from my mind.

      What if they both work in unison, as if the complete sentence were the clue. perhaps this is a similar scenario to the one where forrest states that if you could find the blaze, its relationship to the chest would be obvious. this whole game that we play is based on the stacking up of logical yet coincidental evidence until it inspires us enough to take the botg leap. I often think that you first think you find a clue and that process leads you to think you notice something else and their combined sum becomes the evidence. I think establishing a h.o.b. and combining it with whatever your idea of put in, is the clue.

    • Another Idea would be “put in” is not meant as a physical trek… unless you’re dead set on “take it in” as a movement as well.
      Should ‘take it in’ mean a view / perspective of… the ‘put in below’ is a instruction rather than a movement.
      That would make “from there” being from where you are viewing from, seeing hoB and stanza 3 is a description “drawing’ to you… back to HLnWH. {yep, “Just” WWWH}
      Ya’ll want 9 clue’s to be individual places, Why can’t some clues be of the same place, only told of differently, for observational need.
      I simply think fenn is telling us what he sees following the clues to his hide from the hide. [ a need to be in at precise point to see it all unfold. No stomping, No driving, Boating, climbing, repelling, wading… use of horses or quads. There’s no switching, circling back… No leaving the poem.
      But you may have a hike to get to it all.

      Well, In theory.

    • emmett1010, this is not questioning anything, just a clarification. Not barking down your throat or anything, but, did you mean, Begin it where warm waters halt is the first clue, and take it in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk, are hints, then, the second clue is put in below the home of Brown?
      f has said the first clue is Begin it where warm waters halt, and knowing that you wouldn’t add to what f has stated, I’m just thinking maybe you got it slightly twisted when you posted.
      It still keeps your original idea, but when stated on the blog, I think we should adhere to what f has stated. The first clue is Begin it where warm waters halt, the second clue is put in below the home of Brown, is what I believe you meant. This is not a helpful correction, doesn’t mess with your fixed solve, it’s just a helpful blog post suggestion.

      • Charlie;

        I am not emmett, but he was quite clear in what he said. – He said: “Began it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk, is the first clue.” He says nothing about hints. He sees all of the above as Clue #1.

        He then says: “the second clue is put in below the home of Brown.” Period. Seems pretty clear to me

        You are putting words into emmetts mouth by saying: “f has said the first clue is Begin it where warm waters halt, and knowing that you wouldn’t add to what f has stated, I’m just thinking maybe you got it slightly twisted when you posted.”

        Maybe YOU would think that adding “and take it in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk, ” would be adding to what Forrest said – Many would look at the punctuation, see commas and keep reading to a period and call it one sentence.

        Maybe you are reading Forrest’s words too literally. Just because he said that the first clue was “Begin it where warm waters halt” does NOT necessarily mean that that is ALL of the first clue – Keep reading to the end of the sentence – Just a thought – JDA

        • New Zealand radio, 04/03/2013, Fenn: “No. The first clue in the poem is Begin it where warm waters halt. That’s the first clue. If you don’t, if you can’t figure that clue out you don’t have anything.”

          If the first clue is what you say, then how could he only say the above and leave out the rest and still say it is the first clue?

          I said hints because I was trying to give him the benefit of the doubt.

          Okay JDA, you said:
          Maybe YOU would think that adding “and take it in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk, ” would be adding to what Forrest said – Many would look at the punctuation, see commas and keep reading to a period and call it one sentence.

          I look at what f said and you are right, I see periods. Can YOU? I know you can read, so I will just repeat, for YOU, “The first clue in the poem is Begin it where warm waters halt. (PERIOD). That’s the first clue. (PERIOD).

          Maybe you are reading Forrest’s words too literally. Just because he said that the first clue was “Begin it where warm waters halt” does NOT necessarily mean that that is ALL of the first clue – Keep reading to the end of the sentence – Just a thought – JDA

          Okay, you end a sentence with a PERIOD, this time I will not repeat.

          I can add the rest of the poem the way you say it, would that be a first clue?

          All I did was to let him know he posted something that could be confusing to someone new. If I wanted to be blunt, I would have said “WRONG”, and not cared that he didn’t want any backlash, he posted a false.

          Now with your post, JDA, some may be confused, because your answer is confused. So, it is what it is. If you and others want to think the first clue is line 5 along with whatever other lines you may want to add, have at it. I will not deter you of your thinking. But if a false is posted, no matter how small, it should be retracted. So bluntly, he was wrong in his post, he even said in a later post, “So I don’t understand your point- fenn said
          !- if you dont have WWWH, u might as well stay home and play canasta
          2- u cant start in the middle of the poem.
          3- the 1st clue is WWWH”
          where is the rest of number 3?
          And you are wrong in your back-up of him.
          Emmitt’s way is not valid in his first post, is valid in his other post. The only thing you are right on, JDA, is that you are not Emmitt.
          (On a side note JDA, I went to Vegas a couple weeks ago and had breakfast at this country place just outside of town. I forget the name, maybe Decall could help with that, but this place had a lot of old soda bottles, filled, that they sold, NeHi, Grappette, a bunch of others that f has mentioned. It was really pretty neat. Just thought you might find it interesting.

          • Thanks charlie,
            He is half deaf but can read pretty well.
            The first clue is the 5th line only according to what F said & I believe him this time.

            Canasta might as well be the word that is key for some.

          • Thanks for the info about the Grapette Soda.

            I guess that this one is another that we will just have to agree to disagree on. You found a quote with a period after the word halt – but there is no period after halt in the poem.

            I see it one way, you see it another. What did Forrest mean when he made his several statements? I guess we will again have to wait until Indulgence is found. JMO – JDA

          • I’ll get the name of the place with the soda someday, in case you want to know a place that you can buy the stuff to pay off your bet. But okay, we will agree to disagree. Good enough.

            Good to see you back Jake… I missed the avatar…:) I like video poker myself:

      • May I please add that the word CAN is contained in Canasta?
        I mention that because of the many times Fenn references a container for liquids such as a can or jar.

        This might be a rabbit hole, but if start noticing each reference to something that holds water, well you will be making a lot of notes.

        • Several years ago in National Geographic, there was quite a prominent person at the time, an archaeologist, who presented his theory. Since then that theory has been completely updated, as his theory was found to not hold water. It was Leakey.

  74. Hear me all and listen good.
    Your effort will be worth not using Brown as a persons name for it.
    What use would the first clue have if you could find a creek or Canyon by the name of Brown ?

    • I tend to agree that “home of Brown” is probably not a literal person/place/thing named Brown. For one thing, that seems a little too obvious and plain for a man who is known to enjoy wordplay. Rather, “Brown” is meant to call some image to mind, with the capitalization suggesting some sort of special emphasis (since it is the only capitalized noun in the entire poem that doesn’t start a new stanza line). Once you have the image in mind, it should map to some location that has a logical relationship to the location(s) pointed to in the previous three lines. In my two current solves (both of which start at the same WWWH), both of my most likely hoBs are inspired by “Brown”, but are not named “Brown” on a map.

      • Ray,
        Is logical to me and your thinking is such.
        I wish I could see the image F is seeing about HOB.

    • I have now seen that image of Faulker so many time that I actually bought one of those dumb boonie hats.

  75. So I don’t understand your point- fenn said
    !- if you dont have WWWH, u might as well stay home and play canasta
    2- u cant start in the middle of the poem.
    3- the 1st clue is WWWH

    I dont believe I said or even implied that a creek or canyon named Brown was involved in any way. What i was trying to convey was that no watercraft, or hip boots were needed. IMO

    • I was not replying to your comment.
      Just making a general comment.

      I do get your comment and agree. No watercraft needed.

      I tend to put comments to others in the same thread.

  76. I agree. My two most likely hoBs are not water features, nor are they canyons. They happen to be near water features and canyons, but that is not why I chose them. And my “put ins” do not necessarily involve going into or getting out of water. (A bridge is an interesting idea though.) I have also rejected the idea that “home of Brown” is a residential or commercial building; too literal, in my opinion. Forrest likes his wordplay.

    As far as hip waders go, I’ve used them for flyfishing and found them very useful for that purpose. But if I was carrying over twenty pounds of metal (twice: two trips), I’m not sure I would want to deal with the tricky footing of a slick and irregular creek bottom. Just wading around while holding a fly rod can be tricky enough. In the places I’ve fished, anyway.

    WWWH is definitely critical. As the first clue, it provides context and dramatically reduces the possible locations of the next clue (and so on). If you don’t have confidence in your WWWH, you can’t have real confidence in any of the clues that follow, even if you are lucky enough to have guessed correctly on some of them. You can speculate about what you will find around the next bend, but you cannot be certain until you get there. Even a good map doesn’t always tell the whole story. And “there are no shortcuts”.

  77. Within the context of the built environment , the term ‘structure’ refers to anything that is constructed or built from different interrelated parts with a fixed location on the ground.

    This includes buildings, but the term structure can also be used to refer to any body of connected parts that is designed to bear loads, even if it is not intended to be occupied by people. Engineers sometimes refer to these as ‘non-building’ structures. Common examples include:

    Aqueducts and viaducts.
    Cooling towers and chimneys.
    Retaining walls.

    • Aaron,

      One of the things that F said, ““I said on the Today show that the treasure is not associated with any structure.” All of those that you listed are structures and non-Building determined by engineers, which is specialized knowledge.

      Not disagreeing, just adding.

        • Would you consider a ford to be a bridge… since it bridges a gap?

          I really want to see that Gilbert Gaul picture.

          • Thanks Lug, that really put it to bed for me. I had wondered for a number of years about the bridge … was it built with Brown Trusses that are used for Covered Bridges? FF & Sloan were interested in them, but it is just a foot bridge.
            I have a wholly different interpretation than Tony about the ‘story’ in the pic, but it is not relevant here. Thanks again. OS2

          • Yes, thanks Lugnutz! I looked all over for that thing.

            (P.S. Loved the Spurlok story! B.C. @ Epcot still makes me laugh. You’ve got an unfair advantage on us if you have a flying camel and a search team with such an awesome imagination)

          • Hi OS2 –

            By the way I think you are cool! Tlo makes that list too. There’s someone else who is cool but I can’t think of it right now…

            Now, Far be it for me to disparage another searcher, but I am just simply unable to see things the way Toby does.

            Seeing that painting is the most unclimactic, is that not a word??, moment in the Chase thus far. I mean, Zap’s post about the Date the treasure was hidden wasn’t as sleepy as Toby’s video.

            Do you agree Zap?


          • Arg –

            I told my daughter that I told some friends about baby Connie et al. She would like me to make corrections.

            Baby Connie is no longer a baby. Connie is a boy of 7 now. he is still bored to death by Epcot.

            Spurlock no longer flies. I don’t know how I hadn’t noticed. He is so tall that he now walks along the car in the trees. He is taking enormous, but gentle, steps. I never hear or fell them land.


        • Thanks Lugnutz,
          I’ve posted it two different times in the last couple months and I am amazed that it gets ignored. I actually heard it back in September of 2013 when it was first released.
          I was ok with no one talking about it all this time, because as far as I was concerned, it kept everyone on the wrong path.
          Sorry everyone!
          I feel that once he said it, he had to keep up the same narrative.
          Do you think this is what “Listen Good” is?

      • Luckydog — catching up on your post from last week. Forrest specifically excluded outhouses by name, and in fact did so on The Today Show six months prior to your link above. See toward the end of this 3-minute clip:


        So if The Today Show was squeamish about the use of that word, they didn’t object to it in March 2013, and their onscreen graphics included it.

  78. Seeker, I tend to agree with your statement. I think the one difference that you refer to as ‘slight’ is a little more than slight. Lets stick with math as an example. A comprehensive knowledge of math might mean being able to count, add, subtract, multiply, and divide. Calculus, or Algebra is a little more specialized. To quote Dodo – I think.

    • Right, I’ll go long with the premise.
      My only point is, WhatIF we ‘need’ to learn something?

      Seemingly we need to ‘learn’ WWH, right?
      Seems we need to brush up on geography, but how much?
      LOL IF tarry scant [Tarry Point – ( point Circle )] could mean a mathematical triangulation to make all the “lines cross”… do we not need a bit more knowledge than adding and subtracting?
      Why would fenn post on a blog, suggesting a searcher [wordsmith] look up the word “several” and make the comment; many don’t know the meanings of words they use everyday… and add an interview where fenn stated… I looked up words and definitions of words, changed them and rebooted, It came out exactly like I wanted [ the poem ].

      There are many comments and suggestive thoughts to the readers/searchers to be able to “adjust” their thoughts, imo.

      I personally think, and have said before, The Poem may be telling us ‘how’ to solve itself… if true… does any of that become special knowledge IF “all the information to find the chest is in the poem”-?- and we need to ‘learn’ something we may not know of or improve/advance on what do know of it?

      I would think if we can understand that something from the poem, [ other than deciphering locations ] the poem may be telling us what to do with those locations and/or how to finish the task, line of thinking.
      I’m not buying into the idea yet, this is nothing more than a point to point stomping only.
      fenn wouldn’t need to follow clues he created if that is all there is to it. But he did, and he did it before the poem was complete (completed?) What did he do to “complete” it?

      Aaron, I’m not arguing / debating the words, as much as, the concept of the words…. Are we to learn along the way on ‘how to solve’ the poem’s [ I’ll call it ] ‘task at hand’, and is that to be considered special knowledge, if we are told to?

      • I’ve been thinking about Forrest following the clues when hiding the treasure. The simplest explanation (in my mnd) is that there is really only one practical route from the first clue to where the chest is hidden. So even if someone were to stumble across the chest by random luck, they still would have had to pass through *all* the clue locations to get there. There is simply no other way to do it without falling off a cliff, or walking through a grizzly management area and getting eaten, or crossing private property and getting arrested for trespassing, etc.

        (Yes, hypothetically you can get from anywhere to anywhere by any number of routes given an appropriate application of technology, but we’re not discussing Herculean efforts to get there, just methods and routes available to the average person, since that is who Forrest started the Chase for.)

        For example, you can travel to Clue 1 (WWWH) from anywhere in the world by the route of your choice (obviously). Then, you have a choice of paths, but only one (the correct solve) that leads to Clue 2. Some paths are obviously wrong, like over the nearby cliff face or through the nice stranger’s back yard. But other paths may look promising if you haven’t done your homework.

        When you arrive at Clue 2, you realize there is no other way to get there but the way you came, through Clue 1. That will also be your only available exit on the way back out. Like a wye (Y) junction in a road or on a tree branch (but possibly with many prongs on the base instead of just 2). Now you have a new set of choices, but only one path leads to Clue 3.

        At Clue 3, you see that you could only have gotten there from Clue 2, and will have to go out the way you arrived.


        So, (in my opinion) Forrest didn’t follow the clues just by choice, but because it is the only way to get there from here. No shortcuts. All he did in writing the poem was consider each multi-pronged wye in the journey (he identified 9 including the endpoints) and come up with a clue to the correct navigation of each one. Then he fine tuned the list to make it into a poetic form and make sure it was just exactly as tough as he wanted it to be; hard enough to outlive him by a thousand years or more, but also easy enough that he *might* live to get a certain item of jewelry back.

        In computer science (my field), this kind of approach is called a “tree algorithm” for obvious reasons. You can use it for sorting, storing, or retrieving information. Here, we use it to retrieve the chest that Forrest stored in the algorithm. (Applying it to this Chase, I like to call it my Forrest Algorithm.) The treasure is at one leaf on the tree. There are many routes through the tree, but only one unique route that leads to the correct leaf. All other routes eventually either end or lead back home to the Canasta cards.

        If we take WWWH as the “root” of the tree (the starting point), and the location of the chest as the “correct leaf”, that leaves 7 decision points. (8 points if you don’t put the last clue directly at the chest, but we’ll stick with 7 for this example.) If each decision point has just 2 possibilities, that makes 128 possible routes to the chest *IF* you have WWWH “nailed down” and correct. In reality, most clues may have many more than just two possibilities, so the number of possible routes could explode into the thousands or tens of thousands; it’s not a perfectly symmetrical tree. But only *one* of those routes will lead you to the leaf where the chest is hidden. Every consecutive clue that you solve correctly cuts the number of remaining possibilities dramatically.

        That’s why you have to proceed with confidence; there are too many possible “wrong solves” from the right WWWH to get there just by throwing darts. If you try to solve the clues starting somewhere in the middle, you may come up with an awe-inspiring clue solve, but have no idea if it goes on the correct solve tree. And if you don’t have the right WWWH, the number of possibilities is simply too enormous to contemplate.

        It’s a good Chase. Very challenging.

        Sorry about the length. I seem to be getting long-winded frequently around here.

      • Seeker, I’m not sure I can buy into a Tarry Point or circle idea. That does seem like a little bit of specialized knowledge.

        I do like your thoughts about the poem possibly letting us know how to solve it. IO believe that we do need to learn how to solve the poem, and the only way to do it is through imagination. Imagination > specialized knowledge.

  79. Charles Schultz, the creator of Charlie Brown, had a house in Colorado Springs, CO.

  80. I recently ran across an article about an old timer living in the mountains, that was said to be the epitome of a “mountain man “. What caught my attention was when he said as a youth he would get “browned off “with civilization and escape into the “wood” for days to recover. I had to do some research to find out “browned off” meant unhappy or upset. The phrase seems to be of British origin but used by mountain folk. Don’t know if it fits into HOB in the poem, but I never rule anything out at this point.
    Any thoughts?



    • The first thing that pops into my head is something a Desolation Peak, Misery Bluffs, or something along those lines. (I just made those names up.) Following that logic, “home of Brown” is a place “where unhappiness lives”.

      If it fits your solve, go forth and seek! 🙂

      • Ray Henry,
        Thanks! I like the way you think! I wouldn’t have thought of that. I had a total solution and did several BOTG and have since been shot down by some of F.F.’s recent comments. So back to the drawing board.


          • JDA,
            Thanks. From recent post it sounds like
            you’re about ready to head out again.
            As far as being discouraged. I’m used to going BOTG and coming home with only memories of a good trip.
            As you know, this is not my first rodeo.
            I have had some success treasure hunting and like F.F. I do it for the thrill.
            Nothing beats BOTG . I’m never disappointed.
            Safe travels my friend.

  81. I recently ran across an article about an old timer living in the mountains, that was said to be the epitome of a “mountain man “. What caught my attention was when he said as a youth he would get “browned off “with civilization and escape into the “wood” for days to recover. I had to do some research to find out “browned off” meant unhappy or upset. The phrase seems to be of British origin but used by mountain folk. Don’t know if it fits into HOB in the poem, but I never rule anything out at this point.
    Any thoughts?


  82. Does anyone have the specific quote where Forrest talks about whether or not someone has found the HOB? Something to the effect of “someone might have found the HOB, but I’m not certain”? Also, the date? Was the quote specific to HOB, or was it the quote about maybe solving the first 3 or 4 clues?

    • I think it was phrased as maybe the first four clues. Sorry, I don’t have the date available.

    • Forrest Gets Mail – 9

      In this email from Forrest to a journalist in Italy, Forrest answers some questions you may have been wondering about yourself.
      Are there signs that people are getting closer to solving your puzzle? How many clues have people solved now?
      Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain. – Posted on November 2, 2015

      Best I can do – JDA

  83. So… this chase started before I really got on the internet much, and nowadays if you google “put in below” all you find are people talking about FF treasure. Google has this great feature where you can say an end date to search, so I looked for “put in below” references prior to 2010. Here’s what I found: I opened the top 77 pages.

    Who is putting in?
    56% (43) kayakers/whitewater people
    31% (24) general boaters/canoers
    4% (3) fly fishing
    1 each of dictionary, ESL site, homerowner, manufacturing process, sales tax, tiger habitat, utility, website.

    So 91% of the references referred to rivers.

    What (where?) are they putting in below?
    38% (29) a dam
    16% (12) rapids
    13% (10) bridge
    13% (10) falls
    The remainder are logjams, ledges (in the water), on a website, campgrounds, old ceiling, chemicals, a creek, a culvert, a fort, grammar usage, an island, a lake, a tram, and on a utility pole.

    I’ve seen people on here say that “put in below” could somehow mean get out of the water, but 90% of the usage on the web prior to 2010 (and 100% involving water) meant: go in the water, downstream of a location.

    Of the 3 sites that dealt with flyfishing, 2 were put in below a dam and 1 below a bridge.

    These results would totally cement Hebgen Dam for me except that FF said it doesn’t deal with a structure. So, personally, I’m still uncertain where to put in, but I hope this info helps someone!

    • Hi Emma

      On a ship you put in to shore and out out to sea.

      Even on a river if I say I travelled from St Louis to New Orleans and put in at Canal street, that means ended the trip.

      A “put in” on a river is the physical location to enter it. That’s a noun. Those put ins would be below an obstacle or landmark.

      We have debated the direction vs. place for many years.

      When I piloted a tourist boat on a river put in meant the place where I dock.

      • I am in the camp that believes Forrest is referring to a “put in”. It is located below the home of Brown. I believe these are each specific places and there is no direction to do something.


    • Hi Emma

      Interesting “put in”, I’ve wondered what does it mean?
      Put into a shore line, as in stopping / halting?
      Or put into a river, as in starting a trip, not halting.

      Start where warm waters halt or stop, then go down the canyon………
      and put in…… put in to stop OR put in to start a new leg of the search???……….put in to something below home of Brown.

      What connection, if any do you think there maybe between the two words or two lines in the poem?

      • Hi Jim,

        I’m prolly not the one to ask as I’ve been looking at this for 3 months only. I think that you’re probably driving/traveling down a canyon by a river. “Put in below” the mysterious home of Brown to me could mean one of the following:
        a) get out of your car, you are on foot.
        b) that you are (NOT) taking a boat at this point. (*)
        c) maybe turn off the main road you are on.
        d) maybe you are crossing the river or walking in it.
        e) some unique Ms. Ford / Flutterby interpretation.

        *I’m pretty sure it’s not (b) b/c of Forrests “prevaricating” reply to a message. Q: did you use any other method of transportation? A: If all the evidence was truly known, and I said yes, you might say I was prevaricating (lying, being evasive). And if I said no, you may claim I was quibbling. (I paraphrased)

        examining that, if we assume FF used a boat, or a skiff, or a tram, or a trolly (and “all the evidence was known”) – he couldn’t say that we might say he was being evasive by answering yes. So it means he didn’t use another mode of transportation.

        Bonus round: I think his answer to that question also means that maybe he was wading, crawling, skipping, climbing, hiking, running at some point. But depending on how picky you are, it would be prevaricating/quibbling if he answered yes/no.

        If you (or anyone) has any great insights into options for PIBHOB, I’d love to hear them!

        • Hi Emma;

          No great insight, but, I am driving along a canyon that has water in it – after leaving my wwwh place. – Down the watery canyon I go (but in a car beside said watery canyon) – I pass my hoB. I can see what I have picked as my hoB.
          I turn off of the road I am on – I “Put in” – I turn onto a new road and head towards my meek place on this new road.

          Nothing exciting or new. Just how it works out for me. JDA

          • Hi Emma and JDA

            Earlier in the post people were talking about what the meaning of “put in” was.

            I’m trying to compare the mean of “halt” and “put in” to see if there was a way to tie them together.

            To me halt means stop. Put in could be either, say “put in” put your boat in the river and start your trip OR “put in” put your boat up to the dock to end your trip.

            Hope this makes sense.

          • The poem says “no place for the meek”.
            If you are going to a “meek place”, good luck.
            I could comment on something else you said, but that
            would be a big hint I don’t want to share right now.
            Good luck, though. As always, IMO.

            P.S. I couldn’t find “towards” in the dictionary.

  84. just rambling again…. Brown might have “premeditated intrinsic value” … like in Dal’s 2016 Spring Interview / Buckle.

    • Hello OS2. If I understand your comment correctly, I believe it to be a possibility. Rather than looking at just “Brown,” I’ve considered “put in below the home of Brown” as a clue, with “Brown” as the “premeditated intrinsic value”. I may be incorrect in this way of thinking.

      • Hi Pendever… I agree, I should have said HOB not just B.

        i’m still pondering HOB possibilities & recently reading about fens, their foliage & trees, this sentence made me think of “listen good” & “in the wood” — — “Wood from slow-grown trees at high altitude has a specialized use in making musical instruments such as acoustic guitars, harps, violins, and pianos.” …. And from another article about the same wood, it is used in “airplane parts.” So, now I’m scanning TTOTC stories & listening. Thoughts? OS2.

        • OS2;

          “Wood from slow-grown trees at high altitude has a specialized use in making musical instruments such as acoustic guitars, harps, violins, and pianos.” – Isn’t this specialized knowledge – I certainly did not know it. Just sayin’ – JDA

          • Nope. Dont think it anymore specialized than Yukons are better for hash browns and Russets are better for mash. Just depends on the circles you move in. … but if you want to read for yourself, check out the ubiquitous Englemann Spruce. Or was it pine… I forget so easily these days. OS2

  85. so im, sitting out side watching 5 or 6 turkeys in a circle and they are gobbling at each other saying turkey then one on the out side says time and they all start running my question is Why? if i gave you a hint and said happy thanksgiving youd get it i hope resolve to is a river is not a creek all tho it it may appear that way in nm good day all. i really did see the turkies this morning thats what made me think of my daily hummer.

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