The Key Word…Part Five


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“Many have given serious thought to the clues in the poem but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key.”

The above is a quote from Forrest. This page is where we can discuss what that key word might be.




738 thoughts on “The Key Word…Part Five

  1. Keuword, has some connection to do with bones. So part of this key word is “bones” IMO.
    Not sub-ing. “Sub” has nothing to do with the word that is key. If you insist on stating “sub” here on the discussion of this thread, then please state a case for your “Sub” comment. I for one say that “sub” is not the word that is key because “sub” is a naval term as an abreviation to “submarine”. Maybe some of you are trying to imply that Indulgence is sub marine meaning below water. Or maybe you believe the word that is key is “sub” in the sense that its root meaning is below as in BELOW the home of Brown. Well, I ask, what is it Chasers are connecting to SUB that they could be havi,g a tight focus on? Those of you whom have stated “Sub” as your contriibution to this thread about the word that is key, please enlighten us with your explanation of your sub-mission. Do you actually have a sub-mission? Are you trying to undermine the integrity of this blog. I hereby make no accusations. I would just appreciate some expanetary input so that I may remain focused and not lose focus due to a sub-mission.
    Again, my belief is that the word that is key has a connection to “Bones”. I wonder what f would say to that.

  2. Key word? The one that unlocks his meaning. Wish I knew which one to focus on.

    [With apologies to Slurbs: Sub]

    • A key is used for opening something and “As” is the opening word to the poem. There’s a certain logic to it.

      One could also use this definition of key “vandalize a car by scraping the paint from it with a key”, in which case blaze might be the key word. I found an old rusted out hulk of a car on one of my searches this year, maybe I should go back to look for scratches. I really need an emoji with a dunce cap on it for my comments like this one. Since necessity is the mother of invention how about something like <:~)

  3. If you write the poem on graph paper without any spaces you will find the word KEY written vertically.

    But that is not conclusive of anything that I can see. So, I think that the word that is key is IN.

  4. Subscribe – because Forrest used to deliver newspapers and I’d love for him to deliver a special headline that the chest has been found.


  5. I want to share with all on this week of Thanksgiving what i think the Word is. I think it is the Word of God. To me the quest is about learning to not be judgemental, accepting others as they are. My God is a loving God and a forgiving God. Only if we find contentment within ourselves and what we have, can we cross over on that special rainbow with a light heart. This world is not about silver and gold. It is about loving your fellow man and each day going in peace with a heart as light as a feather.

  6. I think the key word in the poem is “it”. Begin “it”. Begin what? A boat ride? A train ride? A car ride? Take “it” in the canyon… in my opinion , once u decipher what “it” is, you will be able to plug it in , wherever “it” is mentioned in the poem.

    • I believe ‘It’ in the poem can only be about one thing. The journey of life and finding contentment in your heart.

      • BW
        I believe you believe that and TTOTC poem, treasure and author all have much ado with the journey of life – which to me means just about everything one can imagine. When it comes to matters of my heart, contentment is but one of many emotions I hope to feel and have influenced others to feel by when I reach end of my rainbow.
        Chase well…Stay safe…

      • This poem is fraught with words that have double meaning. ‘It’ in the metaphorical sense is, to me, our life’s journey, but in solving the poem ,’ it’ is a trail.

        • IF “it” is a ‘life journey’… how can it be a trail?
          or is the “trail” a metaphor also…

          • No. Life’s journey is a search, but one of the mind. For the poem it must be a physical search on a trail.

        • In literature double meaning/dual imagery is often a vehicle used to make the reader use their imagination to interpret what the writer is trying to convey. Hence the word”paradox” comes into play. Fenn has told us the poem is essentially a map…and it is loaded to the gills with this imagery that needs to be translated in the “correct” way.
          I agree BW…it is a journey seen through the minds eye of the writer. I suspect that Fenn is a bit more spiritual than his “rocks, dirt,outdoors” persona…he is not immortal after all.

    • I honestly believe that “it” is the search, begin the search wwwh, and take the search in the canyon down.

      In the case of a fighter pilot, “it” could mean “your run”.
      Begin your run wwwh, and take your run in the canyon down.

      If you’re familiar with 9 liners, or 9 line JTARS, then it will make more sense. There are 9 clues in the poem, so each clue is another line in the target description. Doesn’t really help a lot, as you still have to figure out where these waypoints are. Seeing as F. was a fighter pilot, it would make sense that he might encode his clues in this type of format.

      1. is the IP or Initialization Point(WWWH)
      2. Is a heading or azimuth from the IP to the target or in this case the Treasure.
      3. is the distance from the IP to the target/Treasure
      4. is a description of the target/Treasure
      5. is target/Treasure location, it’s a grid coordinate.
      6. is marking method, in this case The Blaze.
      7. is usually location of friendlies, not sure how that would play into this.
      8. is the egress route, or the way out. Go in peace? Perhaps a reference to Tribal lands.
      9. is remarks, additional information. Maybe the first stanza. As I have gone alone in there…..

      What do’ya think?

      • Which Ken is this?
        Are there 2 or did your profile icon change?

        It’s been green since like 1989 and now it’s red.


        • Lug…this is me. ken not Ken. I’m green through and through…after the 85 lbs. of turkey and pie. I’m going for some more pumpkin later.
          Ken…I know these things, and it could work that way, maybe.

          • Yes, it means you’ve been one color always.
            Now it’s a different color?

            Dal – are there 2 Kens?

          • Lug…there are /have been many Kens along the way…most have moved along. There has only been one “k”en…me….that I know of.

        • My original color was red for a long time. It looks more pink actually…somewhere along the line it did change to green. It matters not…I ain’t going no where…voluntarily.

        • No, there are not 2 kens.

          There is 1 ken
          There is 1 Ken

          They are 2 different people, but there is only 1 ken, and there is only 1 Ken.

          o.k.? O.K.?!

          : )

      • Ken,
        I think therefore I am…confound it, I’m trying to connect your dots but don’t have the first clue where to begin. Are you suggesting I might start at that Blaze of a Promontory now called Inspiration Point (point of being inspired or spiritual) on the north rim of the Grand Canyon of The Yellowstone River? If so, I can’t even imagine how that’s WWWH. If not, never mind me. Then again, maybe WWWH tain’t the start?. These days, I’m more like heavy lead (or led), dazed and confused.
        Chase well…Stay safe…

        • KidUtah, I think you’re mixing what I said with what you have been thinking.

          Read the 9 liner again, WWWH is the IP.
          The blaze is how the treasure is marked.

          • Ken
            Read again what I wrote cause I thought that is what I wrote you thought You think WWWH is IP or IP is WWWH. I can’t imagine either. Although it wouldn’t surprise me that you have better knowledge, imagination and tight-focused thinking than me right now – I’m clueless. Good luck.
            Chase well…Stay safe…

        • KidUtah, I mean wwwh is the IP, where ever wwwh is, as in Begin it where warm waters halt.

          Get it? Get “it”???

          • Ken
            No I don’t! No I don’t! Really, it’s me. Really it’s me. Thanks for the extra effort trying, but don’t trouble yourself any more with this for me. You could well be right and there’s only one sure way to find out.
            Chase well…Stay safe…

      • What is this -it- then??? Do we find ‘it’ outside the poem or within (it)? why is -it- that I must go, I’ve done -it- tired…

  7. IMHO:
    THe most important word is CANYON.

    What is a CANYON?????

    It is a valley with high cliffs with usually a river in the middle..
    This leads you to translate river in the middle to Rio En Medio.
    Translate Rio En Medio from Spanish is RIVER IN THE MIDDLE.
    Using this location; all the other nine clues fall into place.

        • Correction:: 6-8 miles north of the Santa Fe northern most boundary (depending on when / where the boundary was created). [The latest northern most boundary is near Tesuque, NM.]

          Google shows it well if you zoom in on Santa Fe (and click on the “Santa Fe” designation/title.

          • ~The treasure is hidden more than 8.25 miles north of the northern limits of Santa Fe, New Mexico.

            But only one counts…

          • Seeker

            Are you directing that at me?

            There Are at least two places named Sante Fe in New Mexico.

            Did Fenn ever say 8.25 or just 66k links? Are you just quoting the line from this site?


          • Lug,
            The quote was from Richard Sauniers blog (Mountain Walk) which apparently is no longer accessible . Seems the domain has expired but there was an old link at the bottom of HOD. Fenn response was to what Richard had written. Here’s the quote in full which I retained from many years ago.

            ForrwstFennapril 17, 2012

            “Since Richard mentioned the olden days lets harken to 1620 when universal land measures first became law in England and America. As you rode your horse into town you had to pass 80 telephone poles in order to reach a mile because they were 1 chain apart, or 66 feet. And each chain had 100 links, if
            you wanted to break it down further. Road rights-of-way also were 1 chain wide.
            And 80 square chains made a square mile, or 640 acres – and that was 1 section of land.
            But if you’d rather count fence posts you had to pass 320 in order to reach a mile because they were a rod apart, or 16.5 feet. And since everyone knew that an acre was 10 square chains (43,560 square feet) it was easy to tell how many acres were in your neighbor’s farm.
            Some aspects of those measures are still in use today in the horse racing business because a furlong is 10 chains in length, or 660 feet. You should feel smarter now because that’s so easy.
            If you want to apply those important figures into the thrill of the chase I will give you an additional clue. The Treasure chest full of gold and precious jewels is more than 66,000 links north of Santa Fe.”

          • Colokid

            I am asking if Fenn ever later said 8.25 miles because it is suspicious that the lengthy of chain he chose is the same as one square acre.

            I don’t know what he might mean by referencing an acre north rather than a linear measure, but Fenn is odd.


          • Lug,
            Colokid gave you one. Here’s the other;

            * “The treasure is hidden more than 8.25 miles north of the northern limits of Santa Fe, New Mexico.” ~ Fundamental Guidelines at the top of the page.

          • Seek –

            I know it’s in the guidelines.

            I am asking if Fenn said it, wrote it agreed to it. Looking for the source.


          • Thanks Colokid… I always found this particular comment from Fenn a bit more than interesting than most.
            Fenn went out of his way to throw some lesser known facts out there in terms of land measure. I still wonder why. He then offers that this info is “important”. Is it important to the Chase in terms of method? Or is it only a boundary? He calls it another clue. Or is it just a hint/guideline?
            This one sticks with me…and sometimes I wonder why most do not even know the particulars.

          • Additionally, I was recently trying to recall the exact gist of Richard’s post that motivated Fenn to comment. Time sure does fly and I am missing that content. Do you recall the gist of it? Thanks

          • Ken,
            Since Mountain Walk can no longer be accessed I’m relying on my memory here but, as I recall, Richard was writing about how Forrest had held a job as a surveyor at some point in his career. Maybe someone else will remember more but I think that was the basis for the blog entry.
            F chimed in with this comment.

          • **** Lug asked – “Did Fenn ever say 8.25 or just 66k links? . . . . do we have the Fenn quote?” ****

            “But the treasure is more than eight miles north of Santa Fe in the Rocky Mountains, and south of Canada, and I’ve excluded Idaho and Utah.” ff 9/14/2015 Richard Eeds Radio Show

            “I hid the treasure chest more than 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe in the Rocky Mountains some place. Nobody knows but me.” ff 7/6/2016 Great Big Story

            “. . . it’s buried more than eight and a half miles north of Santa Fe in the Rocky Mountains but below the Canadian border.” ff 7/17/2016 Rudy Maxa Travel Show

            I don’t find any “links” references beyond the aforementioned and oft-cited 2012 post from Richard Saunier’s Mountain Walk site.


          • Thanks Jake

            Those are good solid quotes.

            One of my strongest solves is for a location that bus not at least 8.25 miles north of SF.

            Hermit Peak


          • Colokid – And Forrest’s reply to Richard in his comment below:

            Forrwst Fenn on April 17, 2012 at 5:37 am
            Since Richard mentioned the olden days lets harken to 1620 when universal land measures first became law in England and America. As you rode your horse into town you had to pass 80 telephone poles in order to reach a mile because they were 1 chain apart, or 66 feet. And each chain had 100 links, if
            you wanted to break it down further. Road rights-of-way also were 1 chain wide.
            And 80 square chains made a square mile, or 640 acres – and that was 1 section of land.

            But if you’d rather count fence posts you had to pass 320 in order to reach a mile because they were a rod apart, or 16.5 feet. And since everyone knew that an acre was 10 square chains (43,560 square feet) it was easy to tell how many acres were in your neighbor’s farm.

            Some aspects of those measures are still in use today in the horse racing business because a furlong is 10 chains in length, or 660 feet. You should feel smarter now because that’s so easy.

            If you want to apply those important figures into the thrill of the chase I will give you an additional clue. The Treasure chest full of gold and precious jewels is more than 66,000 links north of Santa Fe.

          • LOCO ! That’s nice! Now it is saved!
            After a reading a few words it came back like yesterday. Saunier’s plug on Russell, and Brown, was where this stuck in my craw.
            Thanks Colo and I owe you Loco.

          • Nice detective work as always, Loco! The internet never forgets anything. The land measuring system has played an integral part in my solutions since before I ever found out that Forrest had once been a land surveyor.

            In Forrest’s response to Richard, he mentions linear measures (links, chains, rods, feet, furlongs) and area measures (acres, sections, square chains, and square miles). What he doesn’t mention is that in the Public Land Survey System, land is divided into townships that are (approximately) 6 miles square. Townships are divided into 36 sections of 1 mile square (and 1 square mile) — the sections that Forrest mentioned in his response — laid out in a 6 x 6 grid. So one township is 36 square miles.

            How many bottles in one layer of Peggy’s spice drawer?

          • Ok so lets say there is a clue here.
            Number of spices equals a township.

            How does that help locate the treasure or Blaze or water halt?

            Thank you in advance.

          • Lugnutz: I’ll give you one possible angle to consider on that. Forrest repeatedly comes back to cloves in that SB. In what position(s) do you find the cloves bottle(s) in the drawer, e.g. reading the drawer like a book (left to right, top down)? How many stumps in the axeman illustration? In what block is Forrest’s father buried? How might such a hint system work geographically?

          • Zap –

            As I mentioned previously I don’t need to figure out your clues in addition to Forrest. You can tell me what you see or keep it to yourself.

            Here is a question for you to consider in response to your idea.

            Does the geographic hint lead to the spot that you had predetermined? If so, at best its confirmation bias;, at worse, it lets you know that its not aactually a hint.


          • Zap second response to your question. Read the other first.

            Wow! Holy Cowza! You can’t be talking me you have thus narrowed down to a township and can’t find it, can yiu?!?

            In absolute disbelief

          • Hi Ken,

            “Those drawings were done by a graphic illustrator and F. had no input.”

            Surely you know that many of the stumps in that illustration have been Photoshopped in, as have a number of the stars. So do you prefer to think the illustrator was lazy, or would you at least consider that Forrest ~might~ have made minor changes to it?

            The number of stumps is not at all critical to the theory, so I’m fine chalking it up to coincidence. But the Block 23 is all Forrest’s.

          • OMG Ken!

            Do you miss the tens of thousands of words devoted to that picture? Fenn has said and Dal has explained that Fenn had absolutely nothing to with the processes by which that image was made to fit the page. But they went in and on about it.

            Artist made the drawing. It needed to be enlarged for the page. The artist had nothing to do with it. So one at the printer copied the logs to make the image fit. And then it was done.

            People hold up no mirrors to the page. It never ends.

            It’s all nonsense OR Maybe I’m just stumped!


          • Zap, ain’t you ecwaterseeing this a bit??? Okay, where is the 23 in the poem? If it is not in the poem or can solve something within it, how are they hints at all? He who brings fantastical claims must bare the burden of showing their fantastical proof.

          • Exactly. I’m willing to bet that Row 4 of Block 23 looks a lot different than the stumps in the book.

            He(F.) was only talking about how relatively unknown someone who was such a large part of his world was to the rest of the world.

          • Ken: just look at the illustration. Many stumps are duplicated and/or resized and/or mirror-reversed; entire strips of stars are duplicated. Now, I realize that if an illustrator is in a hurry, he could “cheat” and just cut and paste stump primitives, resize them, reflect them, and so on. But it seems to me that with something as simple as a star or a stump, just drawing it would be faster.

          • What?
            Are you joking?

            The printer flipped the logs because the pic didn’t fit the page. Not the illustrator. You were in that convo.

          • The human brain can be much like an illustrator in a hurry, when it runs out of ideas, it will begin fabricating elaborate theories from every day objects, simply because it’s easier than putting together real world data.

            In other words, it makes a SWAG.

          • Zap; are you familiar with Occam’s Razor? It’s a theory that states when there are a large number of explanations for an event or occurrence , the simplest explanation is the correct explanation. It has served me and many others well over the years.

            In the case of the Dove on the moon drawing, the simplest explanation is that the illustrator did it that way, because it was the most efficient way of doing it.

            At one time; however, I was convinced there was a hidden meaning in the drawing. I imagined F. or whomever the man with the ax represents saying to himself “Where will the birds nest when they cut down all the trees” The drawing’s answer is on the moon of course, then I thought to myself “The moon, a bird’s nest on the moon. Hmmmm, Huston, The Eagle Has Landed”, then I started looking around Eagle Nest, NM. Then I thought “You know, I’m really way out on a limb with this one”.

          • Zap here is a quite from Jeremy P.

            The illustrator didn’t do that. It’s clearly a Photoshop job, post-illustration, pre-press.

          • Jeremy can you chime in here please?

            The printer resized the image, correct?

            Manipulated the sky and foreground, but not the figure, to fit her page, yes?


          • That can only prove that the image was put together using certain techniques, it in no way proves that F. did it, nor does it prove it’s a clue.

          • Lug: I am agnostic as to WHO was responsible for that illustration’s final appearance. But Ken seemed to be questioning that the picture was Photoshopped at all, and that is not open to debate.

          • I wasn’t doubting that it may have been photo shopped, only asking how you knew it had been, since I haven’t been exposed to all the assumptions that have been made on it. All this time I thought I was the only one who even noticed that the Dove sitting on the moon seemed out of place.

          • Zap

            I apologize, I was getting to excited.
            It was as if we all went back to not knowing what the first clue is. Once something is settled and we move past it I breath a sigh if relief.

            The possible debate about the image Fenn had nothing to with literally raised my blood pressure.

            Ken makes a vaildpointbin that you do not KNOW what happened. An we agree in that?


          • Lug: there’s a lot more going on in the alteration than simple resizing. Individual elements have been copied, some resized, some mirror reversed, some not. Left edge of picture mirrored to right edge. This is beyond what a printer can do. This was done by a graphic artist, as Jeremy P. indicated.

            Again, I only brought this up because Ken seemed incredulous that the illustration had been altered. It doesn’t matter to me whether the number of stumps is 23 or 123. But it’s a cool coincidence that it matched the cemetery block number given at the top of the very next page.

          • Lugnutz ~ ‘I am asking if Fenn said it, wrote it agreed to it. Looking for the source.’
            Fundamental Guidelines;
            **UPDATED JUNE 26th 2017
            **By Forrest

            My understanding is, fenn sent this to Dal to post it exactly as seen/read.
            Dal could clarify if he wants… But as you can see by Loco’s and others postings… it’s not the only time fenn made the same comment.

            To be honest, Lug. I’m surprised that you don’t seem to have read or heard these comments. Sure, it’s easy for things to slip someones mind… and as I read the conversation this morning about the Illustrations… I personally, thought fenn made a comment that the artist did all the illustrations on the book.

            So guys, I have to ask, If that be true… and all the information to find the chest is in the poem.., the book as subtle not deliberately place hints… one of two things must happen here; the artist is in on the plan~[ highly unlikely] or fenn out right lied ~[ and did some of the illustrations as hint/clues himself]

            I’ll even say, that there are ‘pictures’ in the book that seem to be Photoshop ~ the coins for example. IMO only, this was more than likely done to get a better affect for the picture, for the book [ using different picture supplied and not asking for more] by those assisting fenn with the layout of those pictures.

            To assume that these are important would mean, that fenn would have had to advise someone to do so, right? I mean, If those folks and the artist knew these prior to the release of the book [alterations]… wouldn’t that be a huge advantage for them to know exactly – what was what?

            I would think so.

        • Right you are Fennatical. I can’t find my way there using the poem though.

          It’s near an area I was looking at for some time, but I couldn’t fit all the clues to that place.

          There’s another place near there that 1 clue fits nicely, but it’s a stretch trying to tie any more to it.

      • Hi Ken,

        Just curious why you think that location has to be in the Rockies?


        • Hi Pinatubocharlie,
          I think so, because FF said he hid the treasure somewhere Norht of Santa Fe in the Rocky Mountains.

          • Ken,

            This may cause some debate, but to my knowledge he has only said the treasure chest is in the RMs and nothing about the clues. If someone has a quote stating otherwise that I can’t find, please by all means share it.

            Take care……… Pinatubocharlie

          • My apologies Ken. It would appear I did not fully understand the context of your comment.

            I was simply trying to point out that IMO there is a difference between the chest location and the possible location of the clues.


    • crossbow,

      Hey, just some food for thought…an ort leftover from
      Thanksgiving, perhaps: not all “canyons” are equal.
      Upon originally reading FF’s poem, I too envisioned a
      deep narrow valley with high walls / cliffs carved by
      a river a la the Colorado RIVER carved the Grand Canyon.

      How many canyons have been carved by a CREEK, I
      now wonder? I have found a spot where there is a
      groomed dirt road running down alongside a creek
      that is in a very gentle valley at best, certainly not a
      “canyon”. The creek may be 20 ft wide; one could walk
      right down to it and across it (if foolish enough to
      brave rushing ice-cold water) and right up the other side.
      Yet this gentle valley (in places) IS a “canyon.” How
      do I know? The maps say it is! The crafty old bugger FF
      can “get away with” calling it a canyon because the
      maps say it is! So maybe don’t focus entirely on the traditional
      picture of a deep narrow valley. Perhaps upstream the
      contours change to more dramatic landscape but still…
      it’s only a creek.

      I could tell you the name of the creek and the canyon
      but I have no idea if they are THE correct ones, and I
      have been cautioned by Seeker “to use correct infor-
      mation that we know of.” I could send you a picture
      if there is a way.

      In a similar vein, maps are full of places designated
      “hot springs” which are actually only warm springs
      (temps of 90 – 120 F or so). Just sayin’ in case you
      think that WWWH could be warm springs but were
      ruling out places on the map called “hot” springs.
      Again, I have no idea what WWWH is or means;
      I just make guesses like most anybody else here.

      Good searching to you.

      • Conversely, a canyon which is NOT on a map can still be a canyon according to the strict definition(s) of what a canyon is. Go ahead, look up canyon and all the synonyms. Very revealing and interesting when looking at various creeks and canyons in the 4 states.


      • D. Crockett – Cabin Creek follows a canyon all the way down from my hidey spot, which is above a meadow, to the Madison River. And I wouldn’t want to be caught on that trail with My Grizz, because it is a steep slope down to that creek from the trail.

        I heard a story when I was staying at Campfire Lodge about a family of four that had to do just that, and who had to pick their way along the rough, rock-strewn creek to get back to camp for almost a mile. They had a young child in tow and a baby on their back. My Grizz followed them all the way along that creek back to the confluence at the Madison River, and was sighted 2 hours later next to the Madison.

        My canyon down is Madison Canyon, traveled tired, via sedan. But clearly my home of Brown is no place for the meek.

        • D. Crockett – No paddle up your creek? From the L&C story:

          “We decided to follow a fast running stream that seemed to have an anxious purpose of some sort. At least we could have water and surely it would lead us to a road or a Forest Service man trail somewhere. Gradually, that little stream got narrower and narrower and deeper and deeper until it developed vertical sides that nothing could get through but water. I think Donnie was getting delirious because he kept saying, “If we don’t change course soon we’ll end up where we’re going.”

          Notice the potential home of Brown from the thunderstorms’ runoff below Donnie’s horse in that photo. That would be a colloquialism specific to avid fly fisherman, IMO.

      • David Crockett, are you related to the bear killing, pioneer, brave man killed at the Alamo? I wonder where you live,what state? You know Davy Crockett , didn’t like to be called Davy, but rather David!
        WWWH is ambiguous because it’s not so warm water is all around us! Springs of water is like a bridge over troubled water? Well that’s my opinion, put in below the home of brown is my key words! Davy that’s my opinion. Have a wonderful day Davy, thank you so much Dal.

  8. To Tom Terrific:
    One tin soldier
    Listen people to a story
    That was written long ago,
    ’bout a kingdom on a mountain
    And the valley folks below.
    On the mountain was a treasure
    Hidden deep beneath a stone,
    And the valley people swore
    They’d have it for their very own.

    Go ahead and hate your neighbor,
    Go ahead and cheat a friend.
    Do it in the name of heaven,
    You can justify it in the end.

    There won’t be any trumpets blowing,
    Come the judgment day,
    On the bloody morning after
    One tin soldier rides away.
    So the people of the valley
    Sent a message up the hill,
    Asking for the buried treasure
    Tons of gold for which they’d kill.
    Came the answer from the kingdom,
    With our brothers we will share,
    All the riches of the mountain,
    All the treasure buried there. ETC

    • Crossbow
      Thank you for reaching into my aging memory and awakening this gem. Now I can’t get it out of my head – but that’s a good thing, tain’t it.
      Chase well…Stay safe…

  9. I feel that the “word that is key” does help with finding the start point and therefore a lot of searchers don’t want to reveal their thoughts on it.
    I was thinking that “peace” could be significant. It has many meanings:
    *freedom from public disturbance or war.
    *a quiet and calm state of mind.
    *to keep silent or quiet.
    In the book TTotC Fenn mentions the “peaceful” clearing in Vietnam, and the bird nesting on the moon (page 146) is a white dove, a universal symbol for peace. “go in peace” could mean much more than the common pleasantry. After all how many other notable words rhyme with “cease”?

    • Maybe cease wasn’t in the other pre-poem drafts.
      If, just take the chest and leave my bones, was an accurate recounting of a prior draft, were would cease fit in?

      • Seeker –

        When two words rhyme in the poem it’s because one is needed and the other is just a rhyme.

        Or Fenn just needs a rhyme and neither word matters.

        How about this? If we believe the early draft ended the line with Bones, what was the original rhyme word. Looking for the line

        Look quickly down you’re quest to cease

        That line may have ended with what? Home?

        If you’ve been wise and found the Blaze
        Look quickly down you’re almost home
        But Tarry scant with marvel gaze
        Just take the chest and leave my bones



      • You forget Fenn also said:
        “Leave my bones alone. Take the chest and go in peace” and
        “Take the treasure chest, but leave my bones and go in peace”.
        ( is your friend 🙂 )

        • In any case… the point was “cease” didn’t seem to matter in the original thoughts.

          The line that is now in the poem states; Look quickly down , your quest to cease ,

          The two comma’s placement seems infer a second thought; do this for your quest to finalize… But… do this as well [ But tarry scant with marvel gaze… Finishing the task at hand, then go in peace.

          So look at it this way… even if someone came across the remains… is there going to be a chest right there? Or would the placement of the body [ say, head to toe ] be an indicator for a “searcher” to look for the “hidden” chest.

          IF someone came across this body of bones, a criminal type of investigation would follow… IF archeologist are called in because of the age of the bones…[ 100 years, a 1000 years ] a dig / grid search would be the next step. The reason I bring up these scenario’s is I don’t think fenn would simply leave a headstone type of information… he would still want a searcher to understand the chest is close… but not the everyday Joe, line of thinking.

          Now that there’s no body or might not be one… is “alone in there” enough for a searcher to understand?

          On the other hand; stanza 4 could be saying nothing more than, I hid the chest under the Blaze… and the rest of the stanza means absolutely nothing at all. That leave 18 words basically useless, right? Not to mention stanza 5. What is the reason for asking a [present tense / future tense] question at this point in the time span, when supposedly we are to think fenn had; already ‘Gone’ alone in there and with his treasures… Was this stanza also change because fenn “ruined the story”?

          Was “brave and in the wood” added much later for the same reason of ruining the story? This kinda reminds me of fenn’s comment; he followed the clues when he hid the chest. IF stanza 4 was changed so drastically, essentially 18 words were not needed… why add ” But tarry scant with marvel gaze”?
          Just a filler line to get to a rhyming word-?- “peace” to be the important word.

          IDK… but there seems to be a lot to think about, as to, where this word that is key might be placed in the poem… At the beginning. the middle, the end? And why there.

          • In my opinion, after you find the blaze, Mr Fenn uses a word that is a key to advance a searcher to the next clues. Without knowing this word, you won’t be able to move past clue 4.

          • “So look at it this way… even if someone came across the remains… is there going to be a chest right there? Or would the placement of the body [ say, head to toe ] be an indicator for a “searcher” to look for the “hidden” chest.”

            Interesting Seeker.
            A body would be easier to find than a chest so it wouldn’t make much sense to put them both in the same spot. I agree that the chest is relatively close to the “death place” but it’s not in exactly the same spot.

            In Treasure Island, one of the clues is a skeleton laid out with it’s hands pointing the way to the treasure.


          • Seeker, I thought FF’s earlier plan was to throw himself onto the TC while taking his last few breaths.
            Do you now believe that he would not have done that, but instead would have arranged to die more than 12 feet away from the TC, but within — for lack of any numerical suggestion — 200 feet of the TC?

          • Dramatic and colorful “figure of speech” tf. Who in reality would want to lay down on a 10x10x5 rough and pointy hunk of bronze?

          • Tighterfocus,
            The original plan to my knowledge was; to go to the hide with the chest and take sleeping pills.
            The Comment of “throw myself on the chest” was later… after fenn ruined the story… and IF he was ever to become ill with another disease. he’d go throw himself on the chest.

            I think it’s a figure of speech to ‘throw himself on it’ ~ hidden or buried ~ the chest would be out of site in my mind. This line of thought falls in with the idea, no one will stumble upon it.
            I’d say, that includes a searcher who has not fully solved the poem’s clues.

            This is only an assumption on my part… then again… folks have been at the first two clues, and all the other clues, and did recognize what they were looking at either, right?

          • Seeker;

            Here is another quote: “I recovered after planning my future up to one detail short of the final bier. I had even plotted to have my bones rest forever, in silent repose, beside the treasure chest. If I had to go I wanted to do it on my own terms as my father had done two years earlier, with no hospital bed to offer a temporary postponement. It was important to me that I dared to be myself. Today I live my life with renewed meaning, but always with the awareness that some insidious strain might sneak into my body. I hope my age has pushed me far enough ahead so as to discourage even a most persistent chase.” f

            Here he says “…beside the treasure…”


          • JDA – Me thinks Forrest reads the Sonnets of Shakespeare: tight focus on bier:

            “Borne on the bier with white and bristly beard; Then of thy beauty do I question make, That thou among the wastes of time must go, Since sweets and beauties do themselves forsake.”

            No Fear Shakespeare: Sonnets: Sonnet 12

    • Hi randawg,
      I’m with you on “Peace” as being a significant word, in the poem. If you have a copy of Flywater( the newer edition by Grant MCClinock), in the Forward, by Tom Brokaw, he talks about fishing is high church…. and then ends with “Go in peace”. Take a look at this and see what you make of it, IMO.

        • Jeff C – And, weirdly, I have a connection also to Jack Hemingway and his funeral. I was working next door to the cemetery where he was buried, at the Knob Hill Inn in Ketchum, where all of his extended family stayed for that event. And I have connected frequently with his daughter, Mariel, here in town over the years.

          • Thank you for posting that link Lisa.

            Even though I have occasionally used flies when fishing I was not a fly fisherman. A memory that comes to mind was when I was fishing alone on the Sol Duc River (Olympic Pennisula) downstream from a salmon fish hatchery targeting summer Steelhead. I was using a metal spinning lure and had several strong strikes, but then all of a sudden nothing. That called for a change in tactics, so I switched to a fly and did the best I could to land it just upstream from the rivulet that LED to a nice deep hole protected by a big boulder and a log snag.

            After a few clumsy casts, WHAM, he hit the fly forcefully and the fight was on. Shortly thereafter I landed him, a nice 10# or so steely. That made my day and my top 10 recreation memories and is the only time that technique worked.

            Not to change the subject but I have a question for you regarding a quote from “Forrwst Fenn” in one of your earlier posts. Is that one his old blog handles because I’ve never seen it before.

            Thanks……. pinatubocharlie

          • Lisa,

            Thank you for the compliment and for the clarification. We all have some great stories to tell about family, career, hobbies, and fun stuff, etc.. Unfortunately, I lack the creative side of the brain and therefore severely hampered artistically, which in my case includes writing skills.

            But being a retired engineer I know how to draw straight lines…..using a pencil that is, though I am getting better with GE. But so far, I don’t think any of them are crossing at the right place, though I’m getting better at that too, or so I would like to think.

            We head home tomorrow after a nice long Thanksgiving visit with our family and so I will be able to find the time to focus on my latest thought on how to crack open the poem that I hope will serve to confirm I have the correct WWWsH.

            Have a great evening.


          • Hi Lisa – I think it’s important to note that Forrest went from being the spelling bee champion in this article to forgetting how to spell caddis in TTOTC.

          • It’s difficult to ignore how the first stanza seems to point straight to the Firehole River when you consider what Fenn wrote about it(the Firehole River I mean).

          • Why?

            He went alone there?
            He went alone pretty much everywhere.
            Secret would point to his fishing hole near Bakers Hole before Firehole river. I mean one makes as.much sense as the other.


          • Firehole River, Fenn’s secret bathing spot, Madison River, It’s all in the same area. It’s not like one is in NW Wyoming and the other in New Mexico.

            I’m not familiar with Baker’s Hole.

          • My apologies for assuming you knew Bakers Hole. It’s on the Madison north of the town of West Yellowstone. It may be the secret fusgung hole Forrest refers go as 10 miles walk.

            It’s not 10 as the crow flies but if your walking from the spot where young Forrest would put in off of 191 it could be a 10 mile walk.

          • That area has always been at the top of my mind; the time frame is the one issue that concerns me. F. said he made 2 trips to hid the treasure and that he did it all in later half of the day, which would have required him to fly to West Yellowstone during the morning and hid the treasure after lunch, then make an IFR return flight(filed flight plan required), unless he spent the night and flew out the next day. Then he said, when he returned home, he told his wife he had been out to hid the treasure and she said she didn’t even realize he was gone. So, he couldn’t have gone very far, or he stays gone so much that his wife doesn’t notice when he doesn’t come home at night.

          • Thanks Lisa, for the link.
            Forrest’s love of fly fishing is the central theme for my solve.
            Although still waiting for a bite….

          • Ken ~ ‘ Then he said, when he returned home, he told his wife he had been out to hid the treasure and she said she didn’t even realize he was gone. So, he couldn’t have gone very far, or he stays gone so much that his wife doesn’t notice when he doesn’t come home at night.’

            WaiT! WHAAAT?! Ummm did I miss a year? Did I slip into a coma? Did I… oh forget it… why do I bother sometimes. Ya might want to fact check… whatever the hell that was.

          • Maybe I didn’t repeat what he said word for word, but he did make a statement to the effect of he did it all in one evening. When he came home his wife asked him if he’d been out or he simply told her he’d been to hide the treasure(can’t remember exactly) and she said she didn’t realize he was gone.

            Splitting hairs doesn’t change the fact that it happened.

  10. FF gives away a lot with his hints. To lead us to a “key word” that most are missing, he said, “[The poem] was written by an architect…” and “I felt like an architect drawing that poem.” He was trying to tell us something. When you discover the “key word,” you will understand his hint.

    Please don’t chat unless you have something to contribute.

  11. Seeker – A message from the home of Brown for you:

    Cerca Trova


    “Sub rosa,” Langdon said. “The Romans hung a rose over meetings to indicate the meeting was confidential. Attendees understood that whatever was said under the rose— or sub rosa— had to remain a secret.”

    • All I know about roses is they get me out of trouble when needed. Or if I’m really in the fryer, diamonds usually shut ‘r up.

      • Seeker – I was just trying to find another creative way to Subscribe. But I loved your answer. Maybe you can dive down in a Submersible to where Rose threw The Heart of the Ocean? Weirdly, I was sitting next to someone who dove down on the actual Titanic project at the library last week.

    • Many ceilings in grand old Europe (especially eastern Europe) are painted with roses… and old Italian restaurants in NYC. I think I saw them also in several of those restaurants in Venice around St. Marks Sq.

          • Ken, ok, how many words can you pull from that one word that relate back to the poem??? That is all I have, no more questions… 🙂

          • You mean the word Brown?

            I’m not actually pulling any words from it. It’s not a magician’s hat, although it could be, but that’s a whole other thread. lol


            I was only using the word Brown as a sort of key or legend to the map, as it’s the only word in the poem that can be used as such. Is it actually a key that will lead to the treasure; I haven’t found a way to apply it that seems workable.

        • ken – You could pull a Big Brown Rabbit out of that magician’s hat:

          Big Brown Rabbits Often Yield Great Big Vocal Groans When Gingerly Slapped Needlessly.

          Please don’t slap the Brown Bunny, though. 😉

          • I was thinking your double omega island looked more like a big brown rabbit. : )

            lol, just kidding.

          • Lisa, you got it. You can’t find a rainbow in the home of Brown but you can find Brown within Rainbow…

          • OZ10 – Oh! Cool! I didn’t notice that:



            Put in below the home of Brown.

            If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down your quest to cease.

          • Go ask Alice, I think she’ll know

            One pill makes you larger, and one pill makes you small
            And the ones that mother gives you, don’t do anything at all

            Go ask Alice, when she’s ten feet tall

            And if you go chasing rabbits, and you know you’re going to fall
            Tell ’em a hookah-smoking caterpillar has given you the call

            And call Alice, when she was just small

            When the men on the chessboard get up and tell you where to go
            And you’ve just had some kind of mushroom, and your mind is moving low

            Go ask Alice, I think she’ll know

            When logic and proportion have fallen sloppy dead
            And the white knight is talking backwards
            And the red queen’s off with her head
            Remember what the dormouse said
            Feed your head, feed your head

          • The blaze could be white, so that’s a go.

            For a rainbow to be a full 360 you’d have to be airborne, or at a special vantage point.

          • Ken
            Actually I saw a 360 degree rainbow once in the Virgin Islands it circled the sun on a clear day. I was told this was called a corona and consisted of high altitude ice crystals. Very cool and I have never seen another one. But, I’ve only seen a green flash once as well.

          • Lisa,
            Pardon me for interceding…but you have the wrong “k”en. “K”en is the one that you should be responding to.
            Example #1

          • ken and Ken

            Could one, or both of you add the first letter of your last name to your ken and/or Ken – It sure would be easier on us OLD blind guys – keeping you apart. Just a suggestion. About one year ago, I had to become JDA instead of JD because of a similar problem. JDA

          • I don’t know how to add whatever it is you want me to add to my ken or/and/or Ken.

            Could you include detailed instruction on how to do that?

          • As well as I remember – which one might question – All I did was to start typing JDA instead of just JD – along with my web address. Maybe someone smarter than I can chime in – Thanks for considering it – JDA

          • JDA…I reluctantly added an avatar today. I will remain the small “k” as has been for quite some time. Hope this helps you out…

  12. It seems like “time’ is a possibility,. Archeology of itself has a time factor, the poem appears Time enthused. The chest idea sprung by a man thinking he’s out of time. IMO.

    • And TIME is certainly involved in creating the poem. 15 years I believe. Why did it take 15 years?

      Why does someone need to be WISE?

      Why is there BOLD OLD COLD GOLD?

      If Brown has a home, what is Brown?

      If a person does something while already tired, then they certainly will be weak. Why not do it while rested and fresh?

      Just hanging out, swinging in the breeze


        • – I imagine it could take 15 years to write the poem if many of the clues are the same place just different years in TIME. Or something like that.

          • Yeah, I’ve played around with it for a long Time, mentioned it through the years on here
            but was just randomly checking for the issue of TIME that would have been upside down in his trash and was tickled by that headline. I assume Eric would have smiled. I like to get old stuff like that and read it on tangents. Kinda makes me feel like I was in the room back then or something. Lol. I’m a Fenn ephemera junkie on the side…may never lead me all the way to the chest, but comes with built in consolation prizes I can neatly stack on a shelf. Lol.

          • Jonsey1 – Awesome! What if the Time Magazine references for Forrest over the last 15 years are as relevant as the Rockwell prints seem to be? That would be really great. Please let me know anything else you find out about this.

  13. I’ve considered the word “halt”.

    Where warm waters “halt”.

    Did you know that hot water can hold more dissolved minerals than cold water? The process of hot/boiling water going from a gas to a liquid is called deposition, that’s how mineral deposits are formed; makes sense doesn’t it? Hot water holds and therefor deposits more minerals than cold water.

    A deposit in rock is referred to as a load or vein. Heavy loads and water high. I’ve often thought that the blaze is an outcropping vein that can been seen from only a certain vantage point.

    It all leads me to believe that, maybe, the search area, that is the area Fenn described in the poem, doesn’t extend for very far. At least not in geological terms. Fenn himself has said that some searchers have figured out the first two clues and then went right past the treasure. I suppose if you were set on getting to a certain point in your solve your expectations might lead you astray.

    • Ken… whichever Ken you are… LOL… You’re on to it in a certain manner of speaking. which state are you looking in?

      • Right now I’m in a state of confusion, there’s a lot of places in the Rocky Mountains that have the same names, likewise, there are a lot of people in the Rocky Mountains that have or had the same names. I think F. knew that when he wrote the poem, and he used it to his advantage.

    • Ken, I like the way you are thinking, but do want to point out that a deposit in rock is spelled ‘lode’.

      Not that spelling is a deal breaker with the FF way of doing things.

      • FF and I type a lot alike. Probably because we spend more time talking about what we think than we spend thinking about what we say(how we say it or spell it I mean).

    • Ken-dissolved solids with regular solubility dissolve in water. Hardness and scale, minerals that deposit, have inverse solubility. Meaning they become harder and less soluble the hotter the water gets. So if steam is condensing into liquid, then you actually have less likelihood of deposition. Warm waters halting could be water going into a gaseous state or warm waters simply cooling.

    • OS2, you may well be old enough for legal over-indulgence
      in firewater. But I don’t recommend that you make a habit
      of it.

      • Ha! tighterfocus… I hadn’t even thought of glassware. Its an old word, haven’t heard it used in years. Thanks. I was only thinking of the key that turns the pin-tumblers in Yale locks… come to think of it, there are those towns on the upper Arkansas named after colleges. Hmmmm.

    • Hrrmmmmmm Word association.

      Tumblers. Earthquake

      Mining, ball mill or hammer mill
      Land slide, fault line

      • Ken, …. mining? ball mil or hammer mil…. this I don’t get at all. can you explain the connection? Thanks.

        • Pin tumblers make me think of bowling balls. Rollin’, rollin’ down the river/ canyon/ gutter. Its all a big ball of string!

  14. The basis for this blog topic is this quote:” It is interesting to know that a great number of people are out there searching. Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a WORD THAT IS KEY. The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated. f”

    It seems that most searchers are locked into thinking that there is a ‘word’ that somehow unlocks the secrets of the poem. In fact, finding this mysterious single word often becomes the basis for ‘confirmation’ that they are on the right track in their solution.

    But isn’t it possible that the phrase “word that is key” could have a connotation that is significantly different than just a ‘key word’ that unlocks something?

    For example, F has frequently expressed that the use of imagination will be important to solving the poem. If ‘imagination’ is the crux to a correct solution, wouldn’t this qualify as a word that is key? More of a word that describes an approach rather than a cryptological unlocking of the poem?

    Just a slightly different perspective that I think is often overlooked. Discuss.

    • Personally…that is exactly what I believe Fenn was trying to convey. Without possessing the Chest, there is no way to know for sure…but logic does lean in that direction.

      • I do not think there us a key word that unlocks anything.

        I agree that this just leads to confirmation bias.

        If you have an idea where the TC is and THEN you look for supporting evidence, you will find it.


        • Lug,

          With all due respect I have to disagree. I won’t quote chapter and verse because we all know it well, but that comment was made while addressing the poem itself. So I don’t understand how you can say the word that is key is not somewhere in the poem itself.

          I trust in what he says and suspect most, if not all folks here at the HoD share that same respect as I am sure you do.


          • Pinatubocharlie

            If he said key word I would agree with you.
            He didn’t he said no one is in tightbfocus with a word that is key.

            At the time chasers were talking about WWH, the Blaze and HoB. I think he was merely yelling us that we weren’t focusing on an important word.

            I don’t believe you need that word to unlock anything. Just a word that wasn’t being considered as important or as a clue.


        • Lug;

          You might want to take Forrest’s word for it:

          “It is interesting to know that a great number of people are out there searching. Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key. The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated.” f

          Forrest appears to think that there is something called “A word that is key” , and therefore is of some value – Just quotin’ Forrest. – JDA

          • JD

            IMO he wanted to let chasers know they were ignoring an important word in the poem.

            That doesn’t mean it’s a key word needed to unlock anything.

            I would love to hear any one of you that believes the key word is needed to go ahead and explain it. Tell me the keyword and how it unlocks anything.

            Then I can see how that works or doesn’t. As is you all have a different KW accept Zap and HMA share one of course.


          • Lugnutz,
            I agree with you on this. Forrest could have said a word that is a key if he meant that there was a word that could unlock clues. My words do little to unlock opinions around here though.

          • JW

            And he has never repeated it.
            Any one can go to Tarry Scant and search for KEY.

            If you think IMAGINATION is the key word you are reinforced. If you think DISCOVERY is the key word you are reinforced. Etc etc


          • Lugnutz,

            “I would love to hear any one of you that believes the key word is needed to go ahead and explain it. Tell me the keyword and how it unlocks anything.”

            this is just an example- lets say you follow whatever strange directions you see in the poem, and you build a kite- the kite string is above a simple word in the poem- it reminds you of Ben Franklin- a key at the end of the kite… a word that is key- literally.

            anyway, thats an example of how it happened to me in one of my theories.

          • Lug;

            IF – and that is a BIG “IF”- I find Indulgence, I will be glad to share my “Word that was Key” – To tell you what it is (and it will need little explanation) now would be to give YOU Indulgence, and I am not about to do that – JDA

          • Rob,
            In one theory I use answers- related to blaze. but in this theory I’m referring to, the directions created the blaze… but I no longer think the kite is valid because I missed an important word… IMO a word that is key is one of the following: As, in, of or the… all working theories, all different ways to look at this poem.

    • Colokid,

      In my opinion, you have the right idea here. It’s a word which is not in the poem, but the word sends the searcher out with a totally different perspective.

      In October of 2010, Forrest told a radio interviewer that all a person needs to find the treasure is resolve and imagination. So in my solve, you take those 2 attributes, and combine them with my favorite word that is key.

      My solve is not technical, geothermal, geological, historical or scientific in any way. All I can say is that I agree with your thinking here. My word that is key encompasses these other attributes very well, and it sends me on a new type of search.


          • Colo…I have only listened to that, one time…eons ago. This time around…I noticed Fenn said, “….there are nine clues in my book…” Not as preplanned or practiced…at that early stage in the game? Or…?

          • ken,
            “Not as preplanned or practiced…at that early stage in the game?”

            That’s probably the way I’d put it. I believe he also accidentally agreed that the chest was buried or at least didn’t correct the interviewer.

            I think you have to accept the occasional mis-speak without reading too much into it.

          • Ken;

            You are correct, but not completely. Forrest did say it in an interview, talking about his bells, but it was in quotation marks, indicating that he knew that it had been said by another (Albert Einstein) – here is the interview:
            Dear Mr. Fenn,
            The definitions of words seem to interest you. What dictionary, and year of dictionary, do you use for looking up words? ~ wordsmith

            Interesting that you would ask that Mr./Mz Wordsmith.

            I don’t use dictionaries anymore. I just type the word in Google for a faster response. It’s fun to make up words and play with different spellings. When someone calls me out after noticing the corruption of a word I use, I just smile, especially when I say something that in my mind is correct but in an academic sense it’s a horrible malfunction.

            For instance, emblazoned upon some of the bronze bells I’ve buried are the words, “Imagination is more important than knowlege.” If I had spelled that last word correctly it would not have had the profundity of meaning I wanted. To misspell the word emphasized my point that having knowledge is, in fact, not as important as being resourceful. Also, when I make a mistake through ignorance that ploy gives me a degree of deniability that I routinely need.

            Now I will test you Wordsmith. Write down the full definition of the word “several.” Then Google it and learn that many of us don’t fully understand some of the words we use every day.f

          • I like this one “when I make a mistake through ignorance that ploy gives me a degree of deniability that I routinely need”

  15. The poem starts with the word “As” which could be substituted out for the word “While”, as in “Once Upon A While”.

    and “With” my treasures bold.

    I can keep my secret “Where”?

    and “Hint” of riches new and old.



    • Ha, Sparrow, I know the feeling. I would say that is the perfect end of the discussion, or perhaps the ends…

      Either way, I’m done with it, so I guess I’m forked.


      • Joe…This is one of those adventures that I believe is meant to inspire folks for the long term. Fenn has warned that it will be difficult, but not impossible. There are many who have tried…and have thrown in the towel. There are also those intrepid folks who are drawn by the intrigue and mystery of it all. This Chase has become a challenge that will inspire them, and many more, for years to come. I just hope I live long enough to see it solved. The searchers who believe they have it all figured out…or have the inside track are just grasping at straws looking for that magic wand that will keep their dream alive. I’ve been there myself…At this point I just remind myself that Fenn has exhausted himself telling folks that the “correct” solve, followed precisely, in order, will lead right to the treasure. “Certainty” beforehand !
        I am content with testing my ideas in the field and chalking the failures up with the mindset that this challenge has given me a great avenue to experience more than I would pre-Chase. I do not have to rush out the door to catch a flight in a frenzy…in fear of losing something. One trip a year is good enough for me…even though the little pirate inside me is wanting more.
        Have some fun Joe…and keep the Chase alive !

      • Joe—
        “The end is EVER drawing nigh” may be the one clue to really listen to. lol. I keep “trying” to throw in the towel. I think the title to the poem is INSANITY based on a quote that Albert Einstein once made.

        • Sparrow’

          One definition of “ever” = on more than one occasion. Also, one definition of “end” = boundary. So, the boundary will be drawing nearer more than once. How can this be?

          Let’s say you are driving or hiking up a road. You cross three or four cattle guards. Each cattle guard represents the border or boundary between one ranch and the next.

          So, “The end (boundary between ranches) will be crossed more than once” (my interpretation of this line in the poem.) JDA

        • Ken—-
          I’ll most likely keep searching. I am not trying to make the poem fit my solve. I still believe many avenues are open. I just wonder sometimes if there is the chance that it truly is unsolvable.

          “Prove there is a God”. “Prove there isn’t a God”. Neither can be done with physical facts. I believe the first statement to be true due to my personal experience.

          “Prove I didn’t hide the Treasure”. Well of course I can’t prove you didnt . It would be pretty hard to prove something coming from that direction. “Prove I did hide the Treasure”. The only way to do that would be to find it wouldn’t it?

          One possibility, and of course we will not know until the treasure is found, is that the treasure really is never supposed to be found. Like a Lost Dutchman’s Mine it is intended to be sought for for ages to come with the have Fenn associated with that Treasure for all those ages also.

          Hope not. It would be great to see someone find it.

          • Sparrow…You do have some very “quick” ideas that make me think. This is all just a game really…one that I personally enjoy. Keep at it and who knows ?
            Stick with it…from a safe distance….

          • Will do Ken. I really don’t mean to be negative. I truly believe there is a treasure hidden. I believe what Forrest says.

            But Forrest has that quality most of us do not. He is able to consider his legacy—his name after he is gone. Wouldn’t it be great, 500 years from now for people to be talking about the “elusive Fenn Treasure”? Perhaps Forrest can envision that scenario and smile broadly.

          • Ken, a dark cloud seems to be forming,
            the possibility of which has had me
            concerned for some time. Thanks for
            the warning.

        • Hey Sparrow: if you have TFTW, check out the illustration of Forrest and Bella having coffee. What’s the only piece of silverware on the table? How useful is that to folks only drinking coffee? And what does Bella say about topics of discussion?

          • Zap—
            I don’t have any of Forrest’s books—I’ve thought about buying the new one. I mainly have just stayed with the poem—-and the SB’s for hints. lol. But if it is a fork in the illustration that would be interesting.

  16. Seeker Zap Lug…that thread is way too long to reply up there. Common sense has to dictate that the book was enhanced to present itself well to the public. Balanced and pleasing to the eye…so to speak. There is no collusion with the illustrator…unless Fenn misrepresented himself. MO

    • ken,
      Agree completely, “aesthetics” being the key word when discussing TTOTC illustrations, especially considering this comment:

      March 2013 Chicago radio WGN interview:
      ~10:45 Q: Does the book give me any more information than I would get from the poem?
      A: “There are some subtle hints in the text of the book that will help you with the clues.  The poem will take you to the chest but the book by itself won’t.” f


      • The poem will take you to the chest but the book by itself won’t.” f

        Based on that statement, is it okay to still think that the chest may be somewhere on the banks of those rivers/lakes mentioned in the book? The Madison, Firehole, Gallatin, Yellowstone, Hebgen, etc… Do you take those as hints?

        • Oz10;

          Sure it is OK. Is it wise? that is another question. Do I think that those are hints? Nope – but I search in Wyoming – but NOT in YNP – JDA

        • Oz10…your question is one that has and will continue to spark a flurry of opinions(non-facts). I have offered before the idea that the “unintentional” hints in TTOTC, logically(to me), would not be any of those places. I just don’t see the point really. Why label the hints unintentional…and then put out a short list of one particular area by including them in some stories? Especially while omitting the remaining vastness of the RM in the search area with the exception of a few other additions. It is still ok in my book…

        • I see way too many solves out there based on those places mentioned in the book from ff childhood stories. They used the book to locate wwh and from there the poem to find the blaze. If it said, ‘the poem will take you to the chest but the book by itself maybe’ then there is a small chance. (Won’t) means will NOT, and there is no way around it.

          • I agree(with an open mind). Won’t is a strong word. Definitively.
            I try to remember that a hint will “help” with understanding the clues…and the “clues” will get you closer to the treasure…not vice versa.

          • Oz, IMO you may have highlighted a good hint… it’s why Colorado isn’t mentioned in TTOTC. Seekers should extract info from the stories, and apply it to the one state that is not mentioned. A kind of Fill-in-the-Blalnk hint. OS2

          • Additionally…just pre-Fenn comment(early on) on 1st two clue folks; a majority I think were not yet in YNP…that is my recollection anyway.
            A massive shift happened just after those comments started.

          • But a hint is a hint, right? Just because it is mentioned doesn’t make it a non-hint.
            I mean, what’s the point in telling readers; the book will help, if the hints are not talked about in some form or another.
            “Won’t” is strictly for the book ~ can not take a searcher to the chest… nothing saying the book “won’t” get you started in the right area… Such as… 9 clues, or rainbow, or in the mountains N.of SF. Or even at almost 80, equates to; don’t go where an 80 yr old carrying a heavy backpack can’t.

            Funny thing is, I haven’t seen a question about; Hey Forrest, is the “9 clues” mentioned in the “book” a hint?…. well, it would have to be at least a “hint” Right?!

          • Seeker…your point is well taken. However, taken in context with all of Fenn’s ATF in re: that the word “subtle”, directly following the poem in TTOTC, “logically”, means just that. A while back we had this same discussion where I listed all of the uses/defs. of the word “subtle”. None of them relates to “blatantly” listing, writing, mentioning something.
            I can agree to disagree on this aspect because the waters have been muddied enough.
            ex. Hey guys, I hid a treasure somewhere that is special to me, and just so you know, I used to hunt, camp, fish, hike, work and get into mischief every summer in YNP. I also live in Santa Fe NM.

          • Solving the 9 clues will take you to the location of the chest, the hints in the book will help with solving the clues but will not take you to the chest. How difficult is that? Maybe we need to repeat this to ourselves for 21 days so it can become a habit. lol…

            The 9 clues in my poem, mountains north of SF, 66k links north of SF, over 5k and under 10,2k and all other comments can be taken as anything you want clues, hints, help, tidbits, whichever. Those don’t help with solving the clues.

      • Oz,
        My comment was really directed at TTOTC’s illustrations, but what you mentioned I don’t consider hints. Others might, though. I’m mostly a poem purist with GE and/or a good map as resources, and the poem leads me elsewhere. In general, I use the resources F recommends.

        He did say (paraphrased) ‘there are a couple of good hints and a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge’ in reference to the book (TTOTC). So, I try to make sense of a few things in TTOTC that have been constant thorns in my mind.


        • Ooops, in my first para above, it should be ‘a good map and/or GE’ as it makes a big difference, IMO.


    • Ken,
      I think its hard for some folks to grasp the idea fenn alone is the only person who knows anything. Even when folks say they believe that to be true… they come up with ideas [nothing wrong with ideas and thinking about possibilities] that some how others helped fenn without knowing they did so.
      Like, someone flew fenn to the hide, or someone change an illustration, or fenn magically added something to the book right before printing etc. etc. The problem [ as I said earlier ] would be that, those folks would have a great advantage knowing what was done or changed, the moment the book hit the shelf… those ideas… we all keep guessing and hoping could be the thing that breaks the solve wide open.
      Unfortunately, when someone get an idea stuck in their head, because they think it works for them and their solve… all of the sudden common sense and logic is lost with very little thought that; fenn took 20 plus years to finalize it all, covered his tracks, planned every step, to hide a million plus in gold and trinkets, only to have the artist or associates working on the book to find the chest?

      Maybe it’s just me… I give fenn much more credit, than to over look such an easy thought, beforehand.

      • Yeah…To be honest…I truly admire all of the ideas and perspectives that have been offered up over the years. Even the ones that just give me two black eyes from trying to follow the common sense, or lack of. There are none who are infallible here…but many who seem lost in the “Lure” of it all.
        This has been an interesting study on the mysteries that govern the human mind. There are a few incredibly intelligent folks working on this challenge and I cannot help but notice that even the simplest concepts or details are often missed…most times because the emotional aspect has prevented solid judgment. Me too, until I’m flat on my face!
        I ain’t done yet…

      • Seeker…Your last; I give fenn more credit…is an understatement. This guy has put a spin on this ball that ranks right up there with some of the best in the business. Sharp as, attack!

  17. I and ny son in law traveled to New Mexico in July 2017.
    We went to Rio en Medio.
    Took trail 163 from the Aspen Cattle ranch down to Little Chasm Falls.
    “Put in below the home of brown”
    How now brown cow
    At the Falls were in my opinon three clues.
    One the treasure is wet. Quote FF
    Two there was a marker in the odd shaped 4 trunk tree. (blaze)
    Three there is an out line of an owl in the rock formation.
    “If you’v e been wise and found the blaze”
    Wise as a wise old owl.
    Unfortunately even with an underwater metal detector we found nothing. We even stopped at Forrest Fenn’s home but he did not answer the bell.
    I took plenty of photos of the area including FF home.

  18. I think the ‘word that is key’ is “Morse”, as in Morse Code.

    I use one-syllable words as “dots” and two-syllable words as “dashes”.
    For instance, “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down” translates to “-…-……-.” which is “Drive”. That word looks promising! But I can’t seem to put anything together immediately after that.
    Also, “Look quickly down, your quest to cease, but tarry scant with marvel gaze,” translates to “.-……-..-.” which is “River”. Another promising word!

    In-between I find some words, but can’t make out what exactly to do with them. The most promising words are: Fish West Red

    So my current (stuck) solve is:
    Drive Fish West Red River [with jibberish in-between all of those words…] Ugh…

    • Brian P

      That sounds like Wild Rivers and the Red River Fish Hatchery.

      What are the gibberish words in between?

      Let’s go get it!


  19. This is all I M H O.

    Forrest called it “a word that is key”. This phrase connotes a different understanding then simply identifying one keyword within the poem. I have always felt that the word that is key is not a word occurring in the poem.

    I believe I know the word that is key. It hit me last evening, so I slept on it. I realize this word creates new parameters and expands beyond my original favorite solve. I wanted confirmation, but instead I have more work to do.

    This is the most excited I have ever been. Hard to contain myself.


      • Thank you JDA. I’m pretty stoked. Have been pouring over my maps and GE. Do you recall a more recent comment by Forrest about how GE can’t “see” the TC because it doesn’t go down far enough?


    • Here’s another point I wanted to make:

      Forrest said, “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve..” (from the website Mysterious Writings On February 4th, 2015.

      This one aspect of the winning solve is, in my humble opinion, in having the correct “word that is key”. These 2 things go together like hand and glove. In my opinion, that one important possibility he speaks of is unlocked by having the correct “word that is key”.

      All IMHO


      • @Franklin How can a few be in tight focus and at the same time no one to his uncertain knowledge be the same word? Not the same IMO….

        • As I said, it’s my opinion. If you have the correct word that is key, then you may be able to see new aspect of the solve. Makes sense to me, but perhaps not to you.

          All IMHO

      • IMO,IMO,IMO
        The word that is key can be figured out by using words from within the first stanza of the poem. It is NOT a single word from the poem. Focus & look! The word that is key is mentioned in TTOTC. I’m feeling generous today, so here ya go. There is only ONE key word & it is used to solve the entire poem. Everywhere you turn, you will run into this key word. So, if your entire solve doesn’t have ONE KEY WORD that keeps coming up, you might want to focus more. Best of luck to ya!

        • Hi Birdie.

          I do agree with your thinking that….

          “There is only ONE key word & it is used to solve the entire poem. ”

          I found one….and yes, it confirms the starting point.

          I also agree that it can take you to the search area….but you will need the poem/map in order to find Indulgence.

          In other words, I believe a seeker needs the poem in order to find the final location.

          Only other way I can think of, would be by pure luck….and/or stumbling over it.


          • Hi Tim,
            I replied to you earlier but it didn’t show up for some reason. I agree with you to a certain extent. I 100% agree that you need the poem but without the key word, it’s going to be a long journey. In my previous post to you I gave this example. Let’s say purple is your key word, then every part of your solve will have that key word in it. The purple mountains, purple creek, a statue of a purple peacock, etc. if that key word doesn’t follow you throughout, you’re not on the right path. IMO,IMO,IMO
            Also, I believe that once you’ve reach the blaze you don’t need the poem anymore, not if your solve is correct. When I reach my blaze & look quickly down, I can see the area where indulgence is. The ending of the poem just tells you what to look for next.

          • Also, my visa paperwork is completed & I can leave the country now. See y’all in the Spring!

  20. Hi Ken/Lug/Oz10 and anyone else that’s been following along on the axeman/dove illustration thread. Putting this down below because this is in response to multiple posts from the last 14 hours, and I didn’t want to clutter up the page with a half-dozen individual replies.

    Ken: yes, I’m intimately familiar with Occam’s Razor. You opined: “In the case of the Dove on the moon drawing, the simplest explanation is that the illustrator did it that way, because it was the most efficient way of doing it.”
    In this case, Occam is probably failing you. The illustrator almost certainly did NOT make those changes; a graphic artist probably did for aesthetic reasons (as others have pointed out). I am fine with the 23 stumps being a coincidence and nothing more. What people should be asking themselves is why Forrest would even mention such a benign factoid about the specific block and row his father is buried? What does it add to his memoir?

    You then at least conceded that the original illustration had been edited (for reasons that likely have nothing to do with the Chase):

    “O.K. that got me to thinking, BUT F. said the treasure is not in a cemetery.”

    Yes. The treasure is not in a cemetery. I don’t think cemeteries have anything to do with a single one of the 9 clues. That’s not why I brought up Block 23. I was offering an example (to Lugnutz) of how Forrest could provide a more or less useless hint (23) that might reference a section number in the Public Land Survey System — particularly given that Forrest was once a land surveyor. In the PLSS, section number 23 is a 1-mile-square “block” that happens to be in row 4 of its 6 by 6 township. A bottle of cloves is in position 23 of Peggy’s spice drawer. (Another bottle of cloves is in position 23 of the bottom 36 bottles, but that would take a long separate post to prove to everyone.) Again, not actionable information. But suppose something in the poem — quite independently — put you at a geographic landmark that just happened to be in section 23? Can you see how that might be interesting?

    On this point, Lugnutz asked: “Does the geographic hint lead to the spot that you had predetermined? If so, at best its confirmation bias; at worse, it lets you know that its not actually a hint.” We’re working with hypotheticals here. In my example, you would not know to even use 23 for anything. It would only ~potentially~ mean something if your own decipherment of the poem happened to take you to some spot that just happened to be in section 23.

    Oz10 writes: “Zap, ain’t you ecwaterseeing this a bit??? Okay, where is the 23 in the poem?”

    See above. It ain’t, really, unless perhaps you think the number of W’s in the poem is unusually high, or that the alliteration of WWW is significant.

    “If it is not in the poem or can solve something within it, how are they hints at all? He who brings fantastical claims must bare the burden of showing their fantastical proof.”

    Why are searchers so close-minded in their thinking that Forrest’s hints have to help you SOLVE clues? What if some of Forrest’s “hints” are just Easter Eggs to give a clue-solver some confidence that they’re barking up the right tree? This example of something innocuous like Block 23 was meant to show how this type of “hint” would be useless unless solving a clue put you in a place where 23 was unambiguously relevant.

    • I don’t recall ever hearing, seeing, reading anything that remotely suggested that FF was surveyor; how did you come to this conclusion?

      Even if he obtained a certificate from a local college for the purpose of excavating his Indian ruins; how did you find a paper trail that leads to section 23?

      • Fenn stated he was a fishing guide [ I think for Yellowstone park ] at age 13…. I doubt there will be a certification for that as well in 1943-44. Ya have to remember… during the 30’s and 40’s were different time than today, as well as, there was a war in progress and many were over seas… woman manned the factors, and kids got jobs at an age that by today standards would be illegal. I’m surprised in this day and age the Gov. hasn’t taxed babysitting…

        • That I’ve heard, the part about him being a surveyor is news to me. Still F. said that you don’t need any special skill to figure out the clues, and I’m pretty sure surveying is a special skill since I took a few classes in it myself( being an engineering student, it was a prerequisite).

    • Ken — I could very well be mistaken that Forrest was ever a surveyor. He cleared trails for the Forest Service, and is evidently very familiar with the PLSS since he posted a lengthy treatise on the subject. I was probably just misled by the link that used to be on that had the folder name /forrest-fenn-land-surveyor/.

    • Zap,
      I have often wonder if fenn, at times, is just having fun…
      How many time has a SB or Q&A come out and searchers scream; I e-mail fenn and now this ‘clue’ comes out, in one of those avenues. Maybe your not the only one that sees 23 and fenn arrange the clove to be number 23 just to see if anyone noticed. The stumps might just be nothing more than enlarging a ‘drawing’ by cut and paste [ or whatever method ] to fit such a large book and keep the copy of the drawing from being distorted.
      I’m a numbers guy myself… example; there are 42 spaces from A in As to T in Treasure… that’s gotta be a clue, right? the chest weighs 42 so it must be a clue… maybe its longitude… right?… what else could it be, right? That is the first step in digging a your own hole, imo.
      For a number or number counts to be useful it would have to be a clue or part of one… I don’t see any other happening. IF a number simply gives a type of confirmation for a searchers solve… again, imo… you simply looked for that number, found that number and think that number is only there to say… ‘Hey searcher nice job, but it’s not a clue only something you think will help.’

      Personally I can come up with a dozen reason for fenn to lay out the exact location of his fathers plot. I could even say that stanza 1 could be Mr. Fenn and Forrest doesn’t pop in the poem until stanza 5. I could say that stanza 2 refers to a cemetery / graveyard… which is, no place for the meek. The point is, And this is only my line of thinking, a single number is more likely a rabbit’s-foot wishful thinking, unless it lines up in the poem as needed, and not so much a confirmation.

      • Seeker: as long as someone has a firm understanding of probability and statistics, they can assess how meaningful (if at all) a correlation is. Simply matching up a clue answer in the poem with a single instance in the book or one of the Scrapbooks means nothing. And since we have three memoirs, almost 200 Scrapbooks, a zillion Q&A’s, interviews, and ATF comments, there probably isn’t a single geographic name in the four-state area that can’t be found somewhere in all that volume of material.

        However, if you can locate a relatively small geographic area where every labeled feature can be found enough times throughout Forrest’s various communication channels that it rises above statistical chance, then I’d say you might be on to something.

        • Ummm errr, I’m gonna go with what fenn stated… Paraphrasing… aftre Utah and Idaho were kicked out of the running he wasn’t going to give out clues / hints ~[ call the little beggers whatever ya like ]

          Except for the “safety tip”;
          “When I said the treasure was not hidden in Utah or Idaho it was my plan not to narrow the search area further. But in the light of a recent accident, and in the interest of safety, I feel it necessary to alter that plan.”

          Now if your working off a SB or Q&A prior to 2013… I can’t argue if they are clues or hints or not. However, ‘I do think’ fenn does give food for thought to chomp on, but nothing that is going to help with a solution directly… I mean, was that the whole plan to begin with… put the book and the poem out there and see what happens???

          Sure, sure you could try and argue “narrow down the search area…” as only clues that do only that, and anything else is open as actual clues for solving… Then again, I’d be force to inundate Dal’s blog and send Goofy into orbit with the length of my post with quotes saying just the opposite. LOL

          Will not aid a searcher, for one.
          And this { in part };
          “… I am determined to stay aloof of
          providing any additional clues that are useful. Everyone has the same
          information to work with…”
          I won’t even mention the useless clue debate that almost started WWIII…

          O right… an opinionated posting.

        • So I take it you disagree with Doug Preston about there being clues in “Once Upon a While” since the oldest Scrapbook referenced is SB 46 which came out in October 2013, and all the Vignettes and Passages date from 2014 or later.

          • I don’t see how a forward, by an other, can say there are clues in this new book can be held as 100 percent.

            I don’t have the book does it say he knows there are clues?
            Has Fenn said there are?

            Personally, I like to nail down that thought from the author and not a forward

          • Hi Seeker – I think Forrest is correct when he states he won’t provide clues but did you consider that he can provide “hints” all day long? IMO there is a reason that Forrest picked 39 of his best stories to share in the latest book. It wasn’t for entertainment, to sell books, or just for the fun of it. I think Forrest has actually created a treasure hunt where he wants someone to find the treasure. Why else would he hide a treasure and continue to stay involved on the level that he has? If Forrest had wanted this to continue for hundreds or thousands of years, he could have easily melted into the background but he hasn’t.

          • Hi Seeker: Doug said it in front of Forrest and Shiloh at the Collected Works Bookstore (while admitting that Forrest told him not to say it). Forrest sort of smirked/smiled and slowly looked up at the ceiling as Doug claimed there were clues in the book. Soon after, Forrest said something like, “You mean in THIS book?” You have to watch Toby’s video to draw your own conclusions about Forrest’s body language.

          • Seeker – I would suggest that you watch the video and purchase “Once Upon a While”. There are aberrations galore, which have jolted me wide awake. I was at the book signing; I believe parts of it were choreographed; some with and some without Forrest’s knowledge. See for yourself.

          • I’m gonna be perfectly honest, Zap I haven’t seen the video, But if there are more supposed clues in this book… Then we all are a sorry bunch with that many clues floating out there. How many SB stories are in this new book? 20? 100? 120? possible more clues??

            I’d truly would like someone to show a possible solve that includes: No outhouse as a “clue” Not in graveyard as a “clue” Not In Nevada, Idaho or Utah as “clues” …
            Because if They are “clues”, are they not supposed be utilized to get one to the chest?
            If they are “hints” are they not supposed to “help” with the “clues in the poem”?

            So, lets start with an easy one [ one of the first things fenn stated ] How does “not in Nevada” in your solve work?
            No need to be shy… lol… we all know it’s a clue, right?

            I don’t know how many times a searcher has stated something like; fenn said this and grinned, that has to be a clues, or fenn stuttered when saying this or that, and that has to be a clue… One time fenn had to stop while reading the poem to get his reading glasses and folks claimed that was a clue as well.

            Do I disagree with Preston? The man was asked to write a forward… a forward is not written by the author of the book… It might as well have been you who wrote the forward and added the word clues… do you think I would agree with you?

          • Fenn already knew everything there was to know about the place, and he left it up us to figure out where he’s talking about in the poem.

            It’s just that simple.

          • “Because if They are “clues”, are they not supposed be utilized to get one to the chest?
            If they are “hints” are they not supposed to “help” with the “clues in the poem”?”

            This hint and clue labeling to me seems like a little subterfuge. Not purposeful by an means but think about it, if there is anything helpful in this book or any other it doesn’t seem quite that easy to label as a hint or a clue. If a hint helps point to a location and a clue is a stronger hint to that location aren’t they similar. If a hint helps with a clue isn’t it also a clue or at least part of the clue? It is how all of it is pieced together that matters.

            My autographed copy of the book arrived today and I am excited about starting on it. I’ll share if any of it helps with the poem but like the others I’m sure it will be hard to tell for sure until the chest is found. IMO the books and SB’s are like a test full trick answers to questions. While they may make you think and lead you toward them they may not be right and you do not know for sure until the test is graded.

          • Repost from ‘Book review’ thread:

            Now how would Preston know there are clues unless Fenn told him? And why would Preston be so adamant to mention there were clues in the book if it were not true? (Especially if Mr Fenn supposedly didn’t want him to talk about it). And also not just clues, but “vital” clues(?)

            Whether Preston and Fenns exchange was choreographed is up for debate, but I think Mr Preston was surely coached on his statement beforehand.


          • PS: How can someone comment about the “foreword” statements Preston made at the ouaw signing if they never watched the interview?

        • Zap…pardon me for interrupting you, but your last ; “However, if you can locate a relatively small geographic area….” seems a bit off kilter. Where have you been? Folks have been coming on this blog for years, spouting off myriads of anomalies that have led them to such places time and time again. Some go on for days trying to back up their assumptions/assertions with more tidy little examples of, Fenn wrote this, said that, drew that, etc. The end results have been batting 1000 so far. Don’t get me wrong, I admire your imagination, and you are one of the folks I pay attention to….but, when does your pony parade come to the end? I mean, You are trying to tell us that you have matched every labeled feature of some mystery place “enough” times, that it has to be the one?. I’m not even close to buying that. I’ve gone down too many of those roads. I could(but won’t) give you ten places where I have found very similar circumstances…hundreds of miles apart. I bet, not one, is your spot. Don’t be miffed…I do admire you and your brain.

          • I forgot to humbly say that is my opinion….and also I meant to ask, Have you married these labeled places to the poem/map? I mean…the poem is supposed to do the job, right?

          • Hi ken,

            “Where have you been? Folks have been coming on this blog for years, spouting off myriads of anomalies that have led them to such places time and time again.”

            I’m quite familiar with the fanciful theories that have been posted here over the years, all of which can be instantly eliminated by their failures to comply with one or more known facts.

            “I mean, You are trying to tell us that you have matched every labeled feature of some mystery place “enough” times, that it has to be the one?”

            Please reread what I wrote above. I provided a strawman for *a* scenario under which one might be encouraged by a poem solution that brought them to a particular location.

            I am still waiting for the first solution posted to Dal’s blog that does not violate one or more of Forrest’s ATF comments. I don’t think anyone who has posted their solution publicly to this blog has solved WWWH.

          • Hi Zap.

            Your use of “all” is very incorrect.

            “I’m quite familiar with the fanciful theories that have been posted here over the years, all of which can be instantly eliminated by their failures to comply with one or more known facts.”

            I’ve yet to debunk my facts and my solve.

            You are being a bit suggestive and that seems to be very “Trumpesc”.

            First off, you are not sure of “all”….it again is just your opinion.

            I’ve stated this before….if I were to mention my starting point, you and many others would lick on and realize I’m not just shooting the shite.

            We’ll see if your “all” eventually knocks me out. Right now..,i cannot say it does.

            Cheers and good luck.

          • I think I have(solved WWWH I mean), actually twice, there are 2 possible meanings for WWWH, actually there seems to be 2 meanings for most of the clues. It’s odd.

          • Agree with regards to seeing things twice, though I am seeing dual locations as your term “meaning” confused me a little. HoB and meek too I might add.

            Kelly and Zoe

          • Zap…Your strawman seems bold enough… and in theory has some merit. I do believe that Fenn tosses a lot of “conceptual” mind sets out there. But, I do not think they are meant to point the way. Heck, that would be nice though…to have a couple hundred hints! And be aware of it.
            I truly hope your theory works out…and just so you know…I do not believe the “hints” come close to “solving” anything. And for the record…it is all just theoretical until the chest is in some one’s backpack.
            Are you sure there is no flesh behind that straw veil? That’s what got me going really…

    • Graphic artist or illustrator it matters not, it’s still a simple explanation when compared to being part of some elaborately coded clue.

      I believe Occam’s Razor is alive and serving me well.

      • Hi Robert: I was being compared (presumably negatively) to the fanciful ponderings of longtime poster E.C. Waters (who has been pretty quiet of late).

    • Zap, I will take the insult of being called closed-minded. Lol… I think it was worth it.

      You are right about the 23 with the cloves, it will be hard to call that a coincidence. It is from top left to right down and from bottom right to left up. In both cases the bottle count is exactly the same and even though we can’t see the back row we can tell there must be 36 for a total of 72. 2 inch bottles only 3 for sure, so another 23 with a bit of imagination. The bottle of whole cloves must be in the back row, hidden, but we know it’s there. Is that another hint, what do you think? Great observation skills.

      I don’t know about the stumps though, hard to tell specially when there is a second smallest image at the heading off the next page. That will be inconsistent if compared to the cloves arrangement.

      • Oz10: Please accept my apologies for implying that you (or anyone, really) was close-minded. I get frustrated with the insistence by many searchers that “hints” must always help *solving* clues. I don’t have Forrest’s quotes handy on my phone, but I don’t believe he’s ever worded quite that way.

        Thank you for keeping an open mind. On the whole cloves question (good observation!) pay attention to the bottle cap color. Forensics. There are other 23’s out there, but one must caution against confirmation bias. Example: 20% chance of living 3 years. Or count the words in the reversed Tony Bennett lyrics (an error that was preserved in OUAW). Caution: 23 is a small number, and thus not as statistically meaningful as a 3- or 4-digit number or beyond.

        • Zap,
          “hints” must always help *solving* clues. No, I haven’t seen a quote from ff saying it in that matter. The issue is what is a hint in the ttotc? You know the quote, the 9 clues will take one to the chest, the hints will HELP with the clues.

          The hints may help with the *solving* but not always exclusively. There are many ways in which hints can help to direct our attention like in your case with the cloves. But we can also deduct that a hint will not point to a location that will take us closer to the chest. In other words, if I take the word Clove or the #23 and start matching that to a map I would be using them as clues and not hints. Right?

          • Oz10, I think there is one element that most searchers don’t consider when they think about what does a hint mean/do and what does a clue mean/do for us.

            Your observation was… But we can also deduct that a hint will not point to a location that will take us closer to the chest.

            And you go on to say if you did that with a hint then you would be using that hint as a clue. I think the hints can pinpoint a location and still be considered a hint.

            It’s all because we know what f’s definition of a clue is which is it gets us closer to the tc. But you’ve got to ask yourself closer than where?…home or the first clue.

            I think it has to be closer than the first clue because that’s the defining line between the first clue and the rest of the clues on one side and what comes before on the other side. Since a hint can’t be a clue like you said there’s no reason that a hint can’t give you a location further away from the tc than where the first clue correctly takes you. The emphasis on this is the definition of a clue and work your way back to what a hint does.

            If you were to say that a hint can’t give you a location between clue 7 and 8, I would agree that it can’t because then it would be acting like a clue.

            Imo, sorry for the long write up.

          • FD,
            In what way do you mean? Do you have an example on how a hint can point to a location but is not taking you closer to the chest? Is it outside of the search area?

          • Zap – Forrest was rescued by that Jolly Green Giant helicopter in December. if you read the Sir Gawain and the Green Knight poem, you’ll see that’s when the Knights’ feast happenened, and it was also in December a year later, when Sir Gawain meets the Green Knight in the Green Chapel for his judgement.


            “We were wondering if the Jolly Green Giant, the mascot of the Green Giant canned and frozen produce company, was inspired by the Green Knight. Their website says he’s “inspired by folklore and fairy tales” (source). So, we’re not exactly sure, but we kind of think our hunch is right.”

          • Zap – And ‘clove’ can be a verb in reference to the actions of an Axe Man, aka the Green Knight:

            “. Green Knight’s neck], and schade hit in twynne” [“cut the flesh cleanly and clove it in twain”] (425). … After Sir Gawain has flinched from the first stroke of the Green Knight’s axe…”

          • Zap – From Forrest’s super Caterpillar Club story, as he was rescued by that Jolly Green Giant helicopter:

            “It didn’t help my morale any when I looked up and saw the hoist operator (M/Sgt. Maples) with his hand on the emergency cable cutter; the “Guillotine.” But when I cleared the trees, he signaled the pilot, and we were up and away at flank speed.”

            Saved! Just like Sir Gawain was.

          • And please note the “addendum” as he calls it at the very end of the story where a few months earlier where battle damage resulted in a DEAD stick landing at 205 knots! Jet fighters fall like a rock as compared to a propeller driven plane. Such is a testament to his flying skills.

            And I would like to point out, he stopped in about 250’ after dropping the tail hook and taking the emergency cable. 250’ – humm. The numbers 200-500 come to mind.


    • zaphod73491,
      In my opinion, nubers do matter in the poem but not number 23. Mr Fenn wife’s spice box scrapbook that you are referring to, has a hint that allows you to nail down the start of the chase, but #23 has nothing to do with it.

      • LIG, I can’t say for sure if the number 23 will have anything to do with the final solve but numerically and statistically speaking it is there for all to see now that zap brought it to our attention. Maybe is not the number but the exercise itself.

        What do you have in mind?

      • LIG: I’m with you that numbers matter. Any searcher that has considered the endgame must strongly suspect that numbers are unavoidable. Why? Excluding the use of famous landmarks, how could Forrest navigate anyone to even a 100-foot-accuracy arbitrary location without numbers, let alone get you within (say) the 20 feet necessary to find the chest? I don’t think people focus on this aspect of the problem enough when considered in conjunction with the longevity wish.

        I encourage folks to try it. Close your eyes and put your finger down on a (detailed) map. How would you provide clues to get someone there without any numbers?

        • I am 100 % with you on numbers in the poem. What’s more , in my opinion every scrapbook ( with exception of scrapbooks written by Dal and searchers) contain hints (not clues). These hints pertain to geographical location of the chest or the way the poem is structured. If you dissect his wife’s spices box scrapbook, you will find yourself in close proximity of ‘where warm waters halt’.

        • zap wrote:
          “Excluding the use of famous landmarks, how could Forrest navigate anyone to even a 100-foot-accuracy arbitrary location without numbers,…”
          To answer your question … by the use of words.

          Are you sure you have an adequate knowledge of geographic vocabulary?

          Numbers may be unavoidable, but in my opinion, not in the way you have yanked “23” (or any other arbitrary number) from out of your magic hat.

          We can play the numbers game till the cows come home. And searchers have been doing it for years. Consider the coordinates searchers. Numbers haven’t led to a thing …

          Ken (in Texas)

        • Hi Zap.

          IMO numbers may help solve this, but are not as important as you imply.

          I’m sure in that, we seekers will have to travel some sort of distance (numerical) and FF has already stated the “8.5 miles” (numerical) in regards to other numbers related or associated to the poem.

          But this doesn’t mean we need to become mathematicians in order to solve the puzzle (“no specialized knowledge”).

          You are moving away from the simplicity aspect.

          *shrugs* sorry brother, just my opinion of the facts.


        • Ken and Tim: what I am claiming is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to navigate someone to an ARBITRARY location in the Rockies without the use of numbers, whether that’s latitude and longitude coordinates, or paces, or furlongs, or rods measured off in some direction from a named waypoint or precise geographic feature. You can’t get away from counting *something*. Sure, you can direct someone to ~specific~ locations in the Rockies: named features, intersections of creeks and rivers, and so forth, but arbitrary spots (to even 20-foot accuracy) outnumber such places billions to one.

          • No it’s not.

            Follow the Firehole River North until you see the bridge, then turn left and follow the Madison until it turns north, at that point continue West until you see West Yellowstone.

            No numbers used.

          • Kenn: that’s not an arbitrary spot, nor is it specific enough to direct you to a searchable area. Sure, it’s easy to direct someone to the Mangy Moose in Jackson, or the ice falls in Ouray. Direct me to a random location in the Rockies that isn’t a named geographic feature. You can’t do it without numbers.

          • That is arbitrary; I picked a place out of thin air and gave you directions to another place with no rhyme or reason; how much more arbitrary can you get?

          • Zap,

            I believe numbers are used as hints to help you understand a clue, but not in the way you are thinking if that makes sense.


          • Kenn: perhaps I shouldn’t have used the word “arbitrary” but rather “random.” But even in your example (using a named place), you did not navigate me to a 12-foot spot. I could hide something in West Yellowstone, and you would never find it in your lifetime. Your directions have to be more specific.

            Unless the spot you want to direct me to has some lasting landmark at, or right next to it (and of course, a lot of searchers think that this is exactly the purpose the blaze serves), you’re going to have trouble getting me there without the use of numbers.

            Now, I ~can~ think of an exception that doesn’t require numbers or a blaze right next to the chest — provided the chest is in the open and not buried or concealed (in essence, the chest is its own “blaze” in this case). If the clues put you on a narrow path that takes you unavoidably close to the chest, then no distance information would be necessary. You’d just have to walk long enough until you encountered the chest. But that’s a pretty specific case, and would risk discovery by a non-searcher who inadvertently found themselves on that same path (whether an animal trail, fishing trail, or just following a creek or ridgeline).

          • How about a 2′ x 6′ x 6′ spot

            “Let me put it this way. If you ever start feeling sentimental, go to Barstow, California. When you get here, walk into a florist and buy a bunch of flowers. Then you take those flowers to Huntington cemetery on Fuller and Guadalupe, look for the headstone marked Paula Schultz, then lay them on the grave. Because you will be standing at the final resting place of BEATRIX KIDDO”.

            Elle Driver “Kill Bill Volume 2”

        • Forrest provides “paths” to follow (canyon, creek) and specific landmarks to reach (warm waters, home of Brown, and blaze). No numbers needed in my opinion. Once you are at the starting point, you follow the “path” to the treasure. Numbers also not needed to identify the starting point (again my opinion).

          • Hi Tom B: somehow my message is just not getting through. I’m not talking about the starting point (which is not arbitrary, IMO) nor the path from it. I’m talking about the endgame. Forrest has to somehow direct you to a very precise location. (Clearly 200 feet is not precise enough.) The treasure chest location is not going to be some major tourist destination, or even a minor one. If we believe the 100 years, 1000 years, 10000 years, it’s not going to be at the base of a tree. Suppose (today) it’s in the middle of some 3-acre meadow of purple and yellow flowers. How can he direct you to the spot without using numbers in some fashion?

            By making the assumption that no numbers can be involved, you’ve eliminated 99.9999% of all the possible hiding spots for the chest. You are REQUIRING the chest to be within (say) 12 feet of a named feature, or a lasting (non-living) landmark, or an intersection of lasting features. And perhaps it is. But that’s extremely restrictive relative to the totality of places the chest could be located.

          • You wouldn’t necessarily need numbers or a grid coordinate if you have a blaze with instructions to look quickly down once you find it.

          • I believe the poem tells you that the treasure is at the blaze. That is a specific, defined, location. And, the blaze is along the creek.

          • If that’s what you believe, then yes — you can get by without numbers (provided your blaze is small enough). But I don’t think Forrest’s blaze is small at all.

          • Zap,

            Wholeheartedly agree that the blaze is NOT small. The mistake I believe those 200-500’ searchers made is that they were not WISE and found the blaze he WANTS you to find, but they didn’t find the one hidden in plain sight, only a few hundred feet away, and where I suspect it might be found.

            Again, the magician strikes with his slight of hand.


          • Pinatubocharlie –

            imo No one has ever found the blaze. I believe that’s why chasers that were close walked right by.

            But good luck!

          • I believe that the lines:
            “From there it’s no place for the meek,
            The end is ever drawing nigh;
            There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
            Just heavy loads and water high”

            When interpreted correctly give you enough detail that you will be within 10 – 15′ of the treasure.

            The next line:
            “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,”

            Will take you within 2about 14″ of Indulgence,and – “Look quickly down, your quest to cease,” tell you EXACTLY where Indulgence is. – after a bit of work.

            The last two lines tell you to get the heck out of Dodge with your booty.

            If all goes well, Friday or Saturday I should know. JDA

          • Thanks Tom B – A little over twenty-three months and 16 trips – Let’s hope that that is the key – JDA

          • Lug;

            “no one” and “ever” Pretty strong words. How do you balance this against people being within 200′ and 500′ of the treasure? Doesn’t seem logical that a searcher could be that close, and not have at least seen the blaze, even if they didn’t recognize it as such.

            Why would searchers have been that close, if not led there by the clues?

            What clues would have gotten then that close, and them not be aware of there being a blaze in close proximity?

            Again, to me, not logical Lug. Maybe you can help clear away the cobwebs that are getting in the way of my logic – JDA

          • Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help?f”

            This quote makes me think that it would be hard to find the blaze without finding the chest.

          • Aaron,

            Try and look at it this way. Perhaps the blaze is actually made up of 2 distinct features of the landscape. A searcher “finds” the first feature, sticking out there like a sore thumb, thinking that’s THE blaze and looks all around it, finds nada as JDA likes to say and decides that ain’t the spot and moves on.

            But around the corner and further up the gulch or whatever, and out of sight is the other feature. Together they make the blaze. And as someone else mentioned earlier, if you see both features from a single location (focal point), then perhaps that’s where we find our reward.

            Sorry for being so obstinent in this regard, but I have my reasons, because I think he’s told us so.


          • Someone asked F. in one of the interviews “Is the blaze one thing”
            F. replied “In a word, yes”.

          • And that implies to me multiple objects comprise the blaze, which reinforces my case, perhaps JDA’s case too, but he needs to weigh in on that.


          • When I heard him say it(F. I mean) I thought it sounded a lot like he was taking a mental pause to formulate his answer without telling a lie.

            So, the blaze could very well be something that we refer to as one thing with a word, yet could be made up of multiple things, such as a rainbow or a waterfall, or what have you.

          • That is what leads me to believe the search area is not that big.

            1. Searchers have figured out the first 2 clues then went right past the treasure.
            2. Searchers have been within 500′ and 200′ of the treasure.

            It stands to reason, that get that close you have to figure out the first 2 clues.

            It also stands to reason that in order to figure out the first 2 clues and then go right past the treasure, the first 2 clues have to put within 500′ of the treasure *at least*, and within 200′ of the treasure if you go the right way without realizing you’ve past it.

          • JD

            That’s my theory. No one has found the blaze because if they did they would have diverted and found the TC. They miss the blaze and walk right on by.

            I see it as a marker that tells you where to divert. So JD is walking along a trail or track that stretched for a mile. 20 yards in he finds the blaze and heads off trail. Or he misses it and walks right past.

            I think finding the blaze ensures victory.
            It’s just my opinion.


          • Lugnutz, you said: “imo No one has ever found the blaze. I believe that’s why chasers that were close walked right by.”

            I agree. The question I have is did they pass by because they did not recognize the blaze, or because the blaze was not visible from their location?

          • If I may interject Tom B,

            If a searcher was at what I now think to be the blaze, then there is no way they would have thought otherwise unless they were not in true search mode.

            I mean, if I ran across this thing unexpectedly (not looking for it) the first words out of my mouth would be something like “OMG, that sure looks like a blaze to me!!!!”. And my mouth would be agape in awe.


          • The blaze is very close to the treasure IMO, so close in fact that you can glance down and see it; however, I think it may be in such a place that it doesn’t occur to you to glance down.

            “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down your quest to cease,”.

          • Tom B

            I don’t usually think of the blaze as a mark. Some will think a blaze is a mark on a tree or stone to indicate a path.

            To me Fenn is talking about the path. He’s talking about one of the famous trails that were blazed through New Mexico or one of the other states. In New Mexico you can be standing close to the Camino Royale of the ST Trail and not see it. The guys were created 200 years ago.

            So I think chasers are simply missing the blaze even in close proximity.


          • Best of luck to you JDA!

            Search and be safe out there!

            Where exactly are you going so someone knows just in case? 🙂

          • Thanks Bowmarc;

            I will have four generations of searchers (Two adults + 1 child) and myself. We always check in with others. A local motel will know when to expect us back, and they know to contact authorities if we are more than two hours late. We will “Try to STAY SAFE” – NO treasure is worth injury – but it can always happen. We ALWAYS go prepared – but thanks for the reminder – JDA

      • Hi LIG.

        I disagree.

        IMO – I’m not seeing anything in that SB that is helpful in a starting place.

        But then again, none of this SB was mentioned in TTotC, and thus, I’ve deemed it is just another rabbit hole.

        If I were to use this scrapbook with my General solve, it would not help in any way. In yruth, it has no bearing at all. I would have thought differently if it even made one connection. But it did not. I’ve discarded this story.

        But then again…I’m biased on what FF is telling us to do.

        “Keep it simple”.

        Your use of #49 is a very long stretch that doesn’t seem to connect to anything.

        Care to share the “hint” you are working with?

        No wonder FF says you can’t get past the first two clues…..LOL

        Good luck to you and stay safe in your journeys.


        • Interesting sieve you have there Tim for filtering which SBs you will focus your time on. But I think you need to read TTOTC again if you think he didn’t mention a spice at least once, and twice if you use your imagination.

          Be the SCRAPBOOK.


          • In Fennology, one does not know what words mean until you look them up.

            I didn’t find anything. You may have.

            Okay, great.

            I’ll agree to disagree.

            Best of luck to you.

            “One needs the book, the poem, and a good map.”

            Nope – nothing there related to the scrap books.

            You can venture down those holes, I’ll wait for you to return, okay?

            Be safe.

        • Tim,
          Sorry, cannot share the hint yet. There is a long winter ahead of us. I’ll release more of my solution closer to the spring time.

      • LIG – You wrote,

        “has a hint that allows you to nail down the start of the chase”

        That sounds like a clou-related clew to me:

        “Cloves are the unopened flower buds of the clove tree. … Dried cloves are brown, hard, and nail-like in shape. The English name derives from the Latin clavus (nail); the French word for nail is clou.”

        And the 23rd line of the Poem is:

        If you are brave and in the wood,

        That comma looks like the mark Forrest made in the table, during the spice drawer debacle…

        Maybe that line of the Poem was referring to his brave attempt to fix the table, before Peggy returned home!

        • Lisa Cesari,
          Solution to the spice box scrapbook is not a clue. You cannot find wwwh start based on the scrapbook alone, but the solution to this scrapbook will confirm correct wwwh start point. In my opinion, scrapboos are good conformation tool of your solution.

          • I couldn’t disagree more. SB 49 is loaded with hints and IMO, one or two could be considered tween a hint and clue. Let’s call it a Clint.


          • Pinatubocharlie – I agree, there are a couple of hints in this SB – as printed in the new OUAW. For me the big hint is “cloves” – mentioned three or more times – even circled. Cloves have a strong smell – or words to that effect. There is a bush called a clove current that has beautiful fragrant yellow flowers – For me, this is the hint. I am sure that there is at least one of these bushes near where Indulgence is secreted.

            The “scratch” on the table (circled) I also feel is important – especially is you turn the book – top-side-down, Sprry, I can’t say why, but I am sure that the relationship of the “scratch” and where the cloves are is a hint.

            But then again, I KNOW I have an over-active imagination – JDA

          • Cloves are a natural parasite killer in humans. It is one of 3 ingredients for a parasite cleanse I do every couple years. Also good for adding to pickling spice for ribs I use. Cloves are anti-parasites.

          • JDA, you lost me regarding the circled table scratch. I don’t see it.


    • No arguments from me. Just saying that ff stating Block 23 Row 4 would be a huge coincidence (as it relates to a map) if it meant nothing.

      Block 23 Row 4 can lead you to solve a clue(s). Oh yeah, imo.

    • Hi Zap –

      I needed to read through more than 100 emails today from HoD.
      The Fenn quote about how the hints help you solve clues is from the Club Thrifty Interview. I like that you are being more specific lately. This affords me AND YOU the opportunity to challenge your thinking.

      Forrest: Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues.

      Are you familiar with this quote? I am curious to know how you can read that and come away with a scenario other than the Hints help with solving Clues only? Is it just because he didn’t say ONLY? Is that what you are hanging your hat on. That doesn’t sound like you. (IMO)


      • Hi Lug — yes, familiar with the quote. I have all of Forrest’s important quotes in a database on my computer. Occasionally, a new one will surface that I somehow missed, or a new interview will occur that requires transcribing, but I’ve got all the old ones.

        As for Forrest’s definition of hints vs. clues, we have a number of his quotes to provide guidance. For instance: “… And in my book there are several hints that won’t take you to the treasure chest but they will help with the clues that are in the poem.” As you know, I consider the erroneous mention of “For Whom the Bell Tolls” to be a hint by this definition. It doesn’t take me to the chest, but it helps me realize there is more to “Not far, but too far to walk” than meets the eye. Other hints are of the same flavor.

        But then (IMO) there is a whole class of oddities that Forrest probably doesn’t even consider to be hints, but rather “winks” or (as I’ve called them before) Easter Eggs. These don’t even help with the clues — for me, they are little teasers about the local geography.

  21. –carry-over from previous blog–

    charlie wrote:

    “and that is fine. if it’s not just some random guessing and if you could incorporate it into the poem, and figure it out with the poem, i’m all ears. but with most just throwing words out there, guessing, makes no sense.”

    I can agree to some extent in what you say above sir. BUT….and there is always a “but”, huh?……you forgot to add in…. that the selection of where ever the TC lies in waiting, will always be a guess, unless we actually know of the place to start.

    For my starting location, I stumbled upon it….by chance….I wasn’t even expecting it.

    Is it right? I’ve yet to prove it wrong…..even with BOTG.

    Soooo….back to what you stated…..I went out initially on a guess. I happened upon something that makes me believe wholly where to begin.

    IMO – one can only prove they are wrong with BOTG as part of the effort….exactly what FF intendes to have done.

    Be the chest….but first be Forrest.


    • Tim wrote: “For my starting location, I stumbled upon it….by chance….I wasn’t even expecting it.”
      I don’t mean to be discouraging, but what you are saying is tantamount to throwing a dart at a map and the location turns out to be WWWH.

      You must be really good at darts.

      Ken (in Texas) 🙂

      • Ken,
        In my opinion, the numbers in the poem have nothing to do with coordinates and anybody who was/is trying to match the numbers to coordinates was/is set for failure. The numbers come to significance in clues 5 to 7 (or possibly 8, don’t have full solution yet). In my opinion the biggest mistake searchers make is to underestimate difficulty of clues past clue 2.

          • Oz,
            LOL, but in my experience only one clue took less than a couple of weeks of focused study of the corresponding lines in the poem. If you have the first two clues you’ve only done 1/4 of the mental work, IMO.

            What state are you looking in?

        • The numbers in the poem have everything to do with coordinates. Anybody who was/is not matching the numbers to coordinates was/is set for failure…By the way, how did you find your numbers?
          If it’s not through letters, then when you do have it all solved, don’t be surprised when it’s not right. We are not talking a=1,b=2,c=3,d=4,e=5, etc..etc…etc…f gave different values and they are all in the poem. Even “X” believe it or not. First and second stanza starts your latitude, 5th and 6th your longitude. The ending coordinates are your 8th clue. The coordinates do not give you the chest.

          • JW,
            Revealing the state where I am searching is part of my strategy to find a BOTH partner. So, at the moment I can only tell you, that it is not Wyoming.

          • Charlie,
            It seems from your post that I am finding my numbers same way as you do but I don’t believe they mark coordinates. Wow, I also agree with the X, but in my case the X is a crossing of 2 important lines.

      • Agree with Ken here Tim. There will be no stumbling, or accidental finds IMO. It must be solved from the poem.
        Does this WWH that you have, once you stumbled upon it, did you go home, go over the poem, and solve for that spot from the poem?
        IMO, it is foolish to try to solve for the clues. Solving the poem will get the chest. There is no possible way that any of us can know for sure what a clue is, nobody. But we are led to believe we will leave home with confidence. That only means that the poem is what will give your spot. We only know two clues, who says hoB, paddle up creek, nigh, quest to cease, terry scant, why is it, etc….are clues? They might not be, can’t say for sure. You will only know the clues when you have the treasure, so how do you leave in confidence? What is confidence? What shows me that I am confident? How is confidence defined?
        Trying to solve the individual clues, stumbling around and knowing what a clue is, and guessing doesn’t seem to be a confidence builder.
        “Is it right? I’ve yet to prove it wrong…..even with BOTG.” I think that is suppose to be the other way around. It should be, “Is it wrong? I’ve yet to prove it right….even with BOTG.”
        We can only know where to start from the poem being solved correctly. All the ATF comments, mails, etc…. will support what the poem gives. Nothing will be chance…

        • Believe what you may Charlie.

          I had stumbled upon something that I truly believe is accurate. It is a place that meets all of which FF has stated.

          We’ll just have to see, huh?

          BTW – It can be done – it’s called “DUMB LUCK”….if the right question is asked to retrieve the answer. But for me…luck comes natural in many shapes ways and form. I’m open to the universe that way. I live an esoteric life and on the edge. I live in the moment, and enjoy each second. I let the world come to me and express its means and ways.

          You should too if you care to achieve “success”.

          I’ve yet to discount this place by anything FF has said…..AFT or otherwise.

          It is what it is. I knew others woulgn’t believe me. I’m fine with that. I will continue to try and prove myself wrong.

          I even suggested that this blog site to prove me wrong….yet no one ever tries, they just tell me I’m wrong. I think they are “afraid” in some way, thinking that I will solve it before they can, and REFUSE to show their skills.

          Ask me questions that will help me debunk this location. Will you? Can you?

          This much I know….when you see someone mention “Block 23″….and my search area just so happens to be a “Block 23” on a map I am using….AND that “block” is where my search area is located….I can call that another confirmation to my General solve. I’m on the right track.

          Tell ya this much…..

          I’ve already made close to 20+ confirmations with this spot……historic, geographic, imagination, esoteric, and have even come across some exact words made by a few of the bloggers here in Dal’s world…..which descibes my location exactly. Coincidence huh?

          How many coincidences does one need to finally realize that it is fact? Come on tell me….

          I’m just silly and travelling down rabbit holes, huh?

          You go on believing what you will, as will I. I’ll know directly if my location fails next year…..and I will begin again if it does.

          I’m not afraid to fail, because I never fail at all. Shoot…no one fails when they involve themselves with the beauty of nature.

          Cheers and good luck!

          • Pardon me for blurting in here,

            I’ve always challenged logic when what is stated overlooks the laws of physics.

            To say that one can only find or go to a place IF they start at point A and continue in sequence to point Omega would assume that the path is somehow limiting in such a way that it is impossible to get there by any other route.

            Unless my previous paragraph be true, then it’s certainly possible to begin at any point along the route and get to point Omega.

          • Kenn –

            For me this is precisely why most solves won’t work. If you can drive a car from WWH to HoB then you do not need WWH.

            Fenn has said that there is only one way and that eliminates most ideas or solves I read. The whole thing must be pretty tight and with a celar entry point.

            That’s my opinion and It’s what Fenn said.

          • Precisely; this is also why I believe the search area is rather small. It only stands to reason that to have such a limiting avenue of approach the area would have to be both small and confined.

          • I smdisagree with driving to the final search area of the chest…..BUT…..only after you have found WWWH. Otherwise you cannot drive to anywhere except to WWWH.

            I.E. IMO – my WWWH is solved, so I can move to what I think is the nextvclye, solvebit, move, solve the next, etc….oncevi can decide upon a target zone, I could drive to that location.

            In fact I have….but I missed something. I don’t know the blaze. Its a stopoing point, unless I can know what the blaze is.

            But…I could still drive past many clues….being I think I have solved those already and now no longercrequire them.

            UNLESS…..I walk the path…and look for the blaze that should be embedded within the path….which…if found accurately, should lead me to the trove.

            It is of my true belief, one needs to walk the path to retrieve the chest.


          • Tim – You wrote:

            “But for me…luck comes natural in many shapes ways and form. I’m open to the universe that way. I live an esoteric life and on the edge.”


            And then:

            “You go on believing what you will, as will I.”

            Willie Took a Tumble in that video, but he got right up, and headed on his original trajectory, right towards Forrest. I intend to do the same on The Chase.

            Be Forrest….

            Be Willie…

            Be the Chest….

            Big Smile. 🙂

          • Tim –

            I will try you on this instead of Zap.

            There is no point when something fails to be coincidence. We have the word to describe precisely what you are describing. To you it doesn’t seem possible that 20 “things” can point to an area that isn’t correct. You are literally describing coincidence. This is why the word exists in our concept.

            You and Zap each say 20+ “things” point to your spot. The two of you are looking in different spots. One of you is wrong. Therefore you must allow for the possibility that you are both wrong.

            Yes it’s coincidence.

          • Hi Lug.

            LOL…yep….I can agree with this type of logic.

            I could be wrong, but it is sure a lot more fun to think you are right!


            Zap and I are not right until one of holds “the key” in our hands. I can live with knowing that.

            What can you do to help me prove I’m wrong? This is my goal. Seriously. If I can prove it to be wrong, then I begin anew.

            This is how someone finds the trove….through the PROCESS of elimination. Lean manufacturing techniques now play a role in that reduction process…..not only with word selections and meanings, but also of the area to search. Some (many) dispute this level of thinking….*shrugs*… works for me.

            Oh…I have many coincidences that are not just coincidences to the the area, but also are facts.

            “Coincidentally,” they all are relative to the same region, but found at different times during my investigation.

            You realize that those connections, add confidence to the seeker, right?

            …and what are we all to…..”move in”?…..yep…you know.

            Sooooo….right or wrong, one can have many coincidences. Whether or not they are direct facts to the relationship of FF’s life is still a question, huh? I chose to think it does because it is factual…..not coincidental.

            In fact, I think it such an obscure connection, I can see why no one would find the trove…without knowing this location. It is logical and concise. IMO of course.

            Okay…I can agree to the coincidence statement in part, because I also believe if the coincidences are factual, the coincidences now become factual & coincidental notions are removed.

            I’ve come to believe this throughout my life. And it has worked well for me in doing so.

            I am a skeptic in truth, but have realized that proof is needed to substantiate coincidence.

            Thus, coincidence is actually an anomaly or unknown with some sort of a ‘variable’ connected to it, because, after all, it “just showed up”. Why did it occur? What did I do to have it shown to me?
            – I listened and observed and used my imagination. Not much of imagination, when you realize it is factual. It gives you a new perspective of the poem and the instructions within it.

            How good are you at following instructions will play a major role in this Game.

            Good luck and GREAT POST! Test the edge…digging deeper…..peeking into the cubby holes just to see if something is there is wise.

            Move past the words and understand their meanings.

            Don’t be blinded by the mystery, be part of it.



          • Like your point about Lean manufacturing techniques. I am actually in a Lean Six Sigma Green Belt course right now and see the value there. This chase could actually use some lean techniques. The most efficient way to find this thing would be to work more openly together.

          • Lugnutz: I see no problem whatsoever driving from WWWH to the next clue, and there is absolutely nothing that Forrest has ever said that would invalidate that possibility. If anything, *walking* from WWWH is an ~apparent~ violation of the directions in the poem.

          • Well here is one of the quotes I am thinking of:

            Question posted 6/20/2014:

            I have a question for Mr. Fenn:

            When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?

            Thank you Curtis

            The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f

            If you can drive a car from WWH to Clue 2/3 then there is another way. You could join anywhere along the path that you just drove yes? Or No?


          • That is a good point Lug. The most obvious way to me that fits a scenario where you can only follow the clues in order and you are able to drive some portion is that the only way you can get find HoB is by seeing it while driving and not on a map or GE. That is the most obvious scenario but of course I have a couple of other ideas on how this can be done.

          • Aaron –

            Here is a point that others will not concede because it does not fit there solve.

            The man say he made two trips from his car to the TC in one afternoon. To me that means the whole things. WWH to TC. How can we interpret this differently? WWH to HoB is while in a car. PFTM through Blaze/TC on foot?

            So when he said he made the trip twice from his car to the tc in one afternoon he is only referring to half the steps? Why not start the directions there?

            To me, no car. If there is a drive involved then I can skip steps or access the path at multiple points. The quote I cannot find is the one that said something like:

            To the best of my knowledge there is only one way in or out.

            Google and TarryScant are failing me so I must have the quote jacked up.


          • Hey Lug. Perhaps it’s this one?

            I have a question for Mr. Fenn: When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area? Thank you Curtis
            The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege. f

          • Alsetenash –

            I posted that one in a response earlier.

            The other one is like “only one way in or out”. Cannot find it.


          • Lisa –

            I should mention that you have eclipsed EC Waters. Every single thing anyone mentions you are able to relate to personally and to your solve/location.

            I will lump you in with Zap, Tim and Faulker. Each of you says that these cannot be coincidence. And yet you are looking in four different areas. at least 3 of you are wrong. Right?

            You are also seeing the same hints and claiming they mean something different. Again one of you may be right, you may all be wrong.

            From now on instaed of referring to overseeing clues everywhere as EC Watersing I might just say:

            Oh, Cesari!

          • Hi Lug: I will counter with this: what if in order to get to clue #2 or #3 you unavoidably must go by WWWH?

            I take it you are not fond of all the searcher solutions that use Madison Junction as WWWH, since I haven’t heard of any searcher who parked his or her car there and started walking the rest of the clues.

          • Zap –

            1. I doubt that the TC is in Yellowstone.
            2. Most of those are too large in scale. IMO

            I have several solves I would explore on foot in that area. WWH can refer to any of the following for example:

            North End
            Boiling River Hot Springs – Walk down the Gardiner River
            Mammoth Hot Springs – Walk across Pinyon Terrace
            Rustic Falls – Walk toward Bunsen Peak
            Indian Creek Camp Ground – Walk to Garner’s Hole

            West End
            Madison River Cross State Line – Walk to Baker’s Hole
            ISA Lake/Continental Divide

            But you need to park and walk the solve as Fenn did. Probably you too will need to make 2 trips from your car.


          • In this case how would interpret TFTW? It is TFTW but he did it anyway hence tired and weak? Rode a bike? Could an 80 year old ride a mountain bike on a trail?

          • Aaron –

            Thank you for the question about the phrase
            Too Far To Walk.

            To me, Fenn does not use that phrase to refer to a distance, he uses it to refer to a circumstance. Now this is my opinion and I don’t have a tape of Fenn saying any of this. Most people use the phrase A Bridge To Far. To Fenn the saying makes no sense. It’s not the bridge that is too far, a bridge isn’t too anything. It’s the walk or the effort that is overbearing. It’s the walk not the bridge you might say.

            When I say it’s A Bridge Too Far I mean that I am not going to do something because it requires to much effort or it’s a moral imposition.

            So Fenn uses Too Far To Walk he means what I mean when I say A Bridge to Far. Something that I am unwilling to do. Of course, I may then do it anyway, right?

            In the context of the poem it conveys the same meaning as No Place for the Meek, a sense of trepidation.


          • Thanks for sharing your thoughts Lug. It sounds like a reasonable enough interpretation of TFTW.

          • He did mention the phrase Too Far To Walk in an interview but I cannot find it. Someone here will know what I am talking about.

          • There’s a line in the book where talks about a fishing trip he made on the Madison I believe, he said that he’d love to make the trip again, but it was simply too far to walk.

          • Yes good one.

            If course it’s not physically impossible he just means it’s not gonna happen.

            Thank you!


          • Zap – Exactly. I done IT tired. In my Sedan. All the way, can you down, from that very WWWH to below the hoB at Cabin Creek Trailhead.

            Check. Check. Check.

          • Just curious Lisa,

            Do you pronounce it sa-dan, c-dan, or see-dan? Or yeah, and don’t forget the Bullet is a Tudor.

            And while I’m at it, Skippy’s float plane at Hebgen Lake. It was a 2-seater and how many pontoon does a float plane have?

            I’m having trouble staying up with you guys today, so if someone has already posted this, sorry.

            Lugnutz, regarding SB 13 I’d like to point out that according to the Piper Malibu Mirage specs and equipped with a 350 HP engine the plane has a range of 1,343 nms (1,600 miles) with a 45 minute reserve. Driving the most direct route is only about 950 miles, so he would have plenty of fuel to get from Santa Fe to West Yellowstone without refueling. Of course Range would drop if he decided to fly fast and low all the way, but the plane certainly has the capability to fly there non-stop if desired.


          • Pina

            You can Google it, anyone can, and come up with a number.

            I am presenting Fenns own words.
            Do you think Fenn is lying in order to hide the fact he could fly to West Y? I don’t.


          • Lugz,

            I didn’t say that. I was simply trying to point out that the airplane specs from the manufacturer show that his plane can easily fly to West Yellowstone from SF on one tank of fuel. It could easily be a simple mistake that we are all known to make.

            That said, I really don’t have dog in this fight because my area is not in close proximaty to WY.


          • I don’t understand Lug’s point that if one drives their car from wwwh to clues 2-3 that it violates f’s quote he used. Are you saying that if someone started out at a point between clue 1 and 3 that the poem told them to start there? Cause if not then it’s just a guess to start somewhere after clue 2. I think you got holes in reasoning on this theory.

          • FD –

            If you pass anything in that drive than you could have begun at anyone of those places and called the WWH.

            For example If I begin at Madison Junction as Zap suggested and drive to HoB in West Yellowstone, I could just begin in west Yellowstone. OR I could begin at Hebgen Lake and Drive to West Yellowstone. If you drive it makes the starting point meaningless.

            he parked his car at WWH and walk to the TC is how I read it. I do not see how you can drive anywhere unless the drive is so secluded that there is only one way in. Dessertphile’s box canyon may be an example.


          • Zap – Correct ion: Madison Canyon down.

            FYI to Lug – Faulkner helped me vette my solve on another blog, including verifying via Google Earth that my hidey spot was almost exactly 500 ft from the human trail.

          • Yeah, Lisa I read your conversation at Mike’s. I commented to Faulker there and I commented on your conversation with Faulker back her at HoD.

            You don’t have to say another blog it’s ok to say Mike. He’s not Voldemort!


          • FD;

            I totally agree. I just can not follow Lug’s logic – It escapes me.
            Lug says,”For me this is precisely why most solves won’t work. If you can drive a car from WWH to HoB then you do not need WWH.

            What difference does it make whether you walk, trot, run, drive, fly or skip rope between wwwh and (take the canyon down) and hoB. You will always need “A” starting point ie wwwh.

            Start at “A” – pass through “B” – arrive at “C” regardless of mode of travel. What am I missing? JDA

          • JD –

            If you ask Fenn he can just tell you he parked at WWH. I think he is saying so but I can see that many people disagree with me.

            Ask him, not you, maybe Gypsy, ask him if he means that he parked at the first clue. He will say of course that ‘s what he meant. You know, cause that’s what he said multiple times. Parked his car and walked tot he TC.

            Sir, what do you think he means by walked from his car to the TC twice? Do you think he means hey forget the first 4 clues, but once you finally arrive at the 5th clue, I want you to know that from there its a hike you can do twice in one afternoon.

            How can that make any sense to you?


          • The point that Lug, as well as myself, is making is that it would be very difficult, if not impossible for an 79 or 80 year old man to walk(carrying a pack with 22lbs of anything in it) from WWWH to the next point, due to something that makes it very difficult.

            Remember F. said don’t go anywhere a 79 or 80 year old man couldn’t go.

          • JDA,

            I agree with everything you said concerning why does matter what mode of transport we use to follow the clues. What I don’t get is where does it say I must follow the clues at all when on site?

            If I’m confident I have the correct solve and I know precisely where it is, I could simply go get it. I followed the clues virtually, why must I do it again with BOTG? I just don’t get the logic in that.


          • That is a great question PB, but it assumes that the clues can be followed virtually. Wasn’t FF’s motivation to get people out and exploring the outdoors. If the clues could be followed virtually or all online through GE it would seem that would mean years worth of staring at a monitor and one afternoon worth of hiking.

            It is very possible that like little indy you cannot get past the second clue unless you are on site.

            I did stay up late at a Gun’s and Roses concert last night and am a little sleep deprived right now. Totally worth it though. They were great!

          • Lug;

            You say, “The man say he made two trips from his car to the TC in one afternoon. To me that means the whole things. WWH to TC. How can we interpret this differently?

            Here is how “I” interpret it differently:

            If you say, “I made two trips to the store today.” Does that mean that you walked from your house two miles down the road to go to the store? Why couldn’t you have driven the two miles, parked your car, and then walked from the parking lot into the store – maybe even did it twice if you forgot something. And then driven home – and even driven back if you forgot something else? Please explain how your explanation of Forrest’s actions is any different than the above example.

            Please explain so that I will have a better understanding of how you think.


          • JD –

            You are talking about from your house. He is not. He is just referring to the solve/path. If he was talking about from his house it wouldn’t begin with I walked to the tc, it would be gin with. I made two trips from my house tot he TC in an afternoon.

            I asked you what you think he means.

            Does he mean the first 4 clues are followed by car and the reaming on foot?


          • JDA,
            Your hypothetical left the car out completely, nor did fenn’s comment have an exact distance other then he walked less than a mile… we don’t even know it that was one trip or two trips combined.

            The main problem I see with all this talk about driving or where to start is… many of you have the canyon to be a huge place, some with raging rivers within and you force fenn’s clue to have to start at a later clue ~ regardless of what you think NFBTFTW means.
            To me that almost force fits a guess at the correct wwwh… and make many solve wrong to begin with.

            But while we’re the subject of the word that is key… ya’ll remember Andrew? who got it mostly right? Do you or anyone supposed fenn meant he got the “word” correct… the method correct… the location correct… or will ya’ll just say fenn is only telling 85% of the truth. Just curious

          • Seeker;

            In my hypothetical, I say that he DROVE (meaning in a car) the two miles to the parking lot of the store.

            I was not trying to correlate any distance driven in the poem with my two-mile drive in my hypothetical.

            Lug says, “The man say he made two trips from his car to the TC in one afternoon. To me that means the whole things. WWH to TC.” I am just questioning this logic.

            In my solve, I drive close to twenty miles, and walk only about one mile – (walk one mile and drive 20 – one way).

            Total: walk 4 miles, drive 40.

            Foes this help? JDA

          • Hi JDA, that is some fuzzy math… 🙂

            You walk one mile each way but they total 4 miles? It will only makes sense if you are walking twice from your car, which I guess will be okay if you found the treasure and can’t take it all at once.

          • OZ10;

            Forrest said he made two trips in one afternoon because it was too heavy to make only one trip. IF I find indulgence, I plan to do the same (or have a couple of strong bodies to help me). So yes – 1 mile up – 1 mile back twice = 4 miles. JDA

          • Got it. I thought you been walking twice from your car every time you go out looking for the past 16 times. Or 32? lol…

  22. Nah, not negative. EC himself allowed someone to coin the phrase to be used in place of -overanalyzing- something to the 3rd power. Lots of searchers are having lots of fun with that, and it is fun to watch.

  23. I’ve noticed something about the structure of the poem. It seems to follow a sort of logical flow, such as you’d find in a computer program.

    IF – AND – THEN

    IF tells you to check for a condition being true
    AND modifies that condition by adding another element to it
    THEN tells you what to do IF the condition or set of conditions is true.

    The 1st stanza starts with As “As I have gone alone in there And with my treasures bold” It also uses the word AND
    “I can keep my secret where AND Hint of riches new AND old

    In the 2nd and 3rd stanzas there are Direct instructions that imply movement. “Begin it wwwh AND take it in the canyon Down NOT far BUT too far to far to walk. PUT in below the home of Brown.

    The 4th stanza is the Conditional statement “IF”, it’s an instruction to check the accuracy of the path you’ve traveled following the 2nd and 3rd stanzas and IF you’ve been Wise AND found the Blaze look quickly down, and you’re done. Anyone can find a Blaze, but how does one be Wise?

    The 5th begins with the word “So”; in this context “So” is used to deliver a debriefing of sorts or a reveling of Fenn’s mind set “So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek”?

    The 6th stanza also begins with “So”; however, this time it gives further instructions “So Hear me all AND Listen Good”, which implies that the 5th stanza has given you a very important clue “So” listen up now and think about that. And/Or this next part is more important than the previous.
    “IF you are Brave AND in the Wood
    I give you Title to the gold”

      • Kenn –

        “It seems logical to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use logic to determine an important clue to the location of the treasure. Is someone doing that now and I don’t know it? It’s not what they say on the blogs that may be significant, it’s what they whisper. f”

    • Kenn, I like how that plays out between the 5th and 6th. I posted something about this a while back. I could be wrong but it seems to be directing the reader to loop around. Once we get the ‘message’ from the 5th, your effort will be worth the cold. Go back up and re do it. As in, you are cold, cold, still cold, getting warmer. As we get ‘warmer’ we get braver, at that point in the wood should make sense… Do I make sense?

      • Loop as in a logical loop

        IF condition A is true AND condition B is true THEN do this
        Else Loop = Go back to the Beginning AND start over again.

  24. I’ve been thinking about what FF said “all you need to find the treasure is the poem and a good map” or something to that effect.

    Maybe that’s true, it probably is possible if you have an adventurous spirit and some imagination, but I think it would take a lot of trial and error, and perhaps that’s the way F. wanted it to be, because that’s the way he’s always been.

    IMO though, if you want to find the treasure quickly, then you’re going to need a bit more than just the poem and a map, you’re going to need some knowledge of the area, some history, or Google Search. Was it Einstein that said “Research is what I’m doing when I don’t know what I’m doing”?

  25. Kenn – More from that same link, to appease Ronnie the Scot:

    “The Loch Leven strain of brown trout comes from the lake of the same name in Scotland. According to National Park Service records, it was first stocked in the upper Firehole in 1889. The Von Behr strain from Germany first showed up in Nez Perce Creek in 1880 after 9,300 fingerlings were planted in this Firehole River tributary that enters the river not too far from where I and my buddies fished that day.”

  26. Tim — what I meant is that every published end-to-end solution (in my opinion) violates one or more of Forrest’s ATF comments. You haven’t posted your end-to-end solution, so I can’t comment on whether it runs afoul of anything Forrest has said.

    • Zap, Given that there is some things that contradict whether purposeful or not. Also, knowing the 85% rule (it could apply only to books). Will you rely on all of the ATF comments as a way to check your solves?

      I have a general solve that I have only found 1 maybe 2 ATF comments go against, and even those comments leave room for interpretation. They do give me trepidation to be sure but it is hard to be sure if it should be thrown out because of those comments.

    • Hi Aaron: I have had a past solution that violated one of Forrest’s ATF comments, that I made the mistake of accepting (just because the solution was otherwise so excellent). I won’t make that mistake again. If a solution violates a SINGLE thing that Forrest has ever said, it’s now a no-go for me.

      I’ll even tell you how that old solution violated an ATF comment because it’s instructive. There was no way to differentiate between people getting within 500 feet of my spot and 200 feet. That is to say, *if* you got within 500 feet, you would unavoidably get within 200 feet. I should have accepted that that was a solution-killer.

      • Zap;

        Does it work the other way? Let’s say I am walking along a trail, and the treasure is off-the-trail to my right – let’s say 185′. I am near a trail marker, so I can identify the spot and tell Forrest about being there.

        I walk past the sign, not knowing how close I came to Indulgence. A few hundred feet on down the trail, I am at a place that the trail splits – one trail ahead, one trail to the left. I am now about 500′ away from the treasure, although I am unaware of this fact.

        I write and tell Forrest that I was at the new sign, and took the trail to the left.

        Forrest now knows that I was within 200′ (at the first sign) and within 500′ (at the trail-split sign) and I walked past the treasure. According to your logic, should I have torn up that solve because of your 200’/500′ rule? Just askin’ KDA

      • It sounds like you are talking about a trail that leads both 500 and 200 feet. Just a guess, no matter.

        I have used the 500 and 200 feet rule as well while looking at potential spots. I think that comment is a bit easier to go by because it is very precise. Would about a comment like and I am paraphrasing “If I told you what Brown was you would go right to the chest”. Does this mean it is so close and easily found after finding HoB that we should avoid anything that leads us far from HoB? That is just an example of what I mean. I don’t know that all ATF comments are so easily checked against a solve.

    • …and I can’t/won’t because it has not been searched completely.

      Oh….there are questions you can ask to debunk my solve….

      Is it a place where FF is familiar with? Yes.

      Is it a place mentioned directly in the book? No.

      Can you decide upon this place with all the hints or clues? I think so…but will take a big investigation. I’ve noticed on the boatds, some people have seemed to skirt the topic that will take you to this level n the playing field.

      Will I reveal that? No…because it gives away a very large portion of the trek. Too m ch fun in keeping a secret.

      Anyhow…you can see that there are questions that can be asked that can help guide….but not give away, but also can debunk and cause cross offs to solves…this eliminating paths to take.

      You want to be interactive on this site with meaning…this is the interaction oh and others can use to help guidevl you.

      Like all treasure hunts…observing is just half of the battle with thinking. Which, evidently leads the way to success.

      Are you really up for the challenge of having me debunk you solve as well?

      “Shall we play a game?”

      Best of luck sir.

      I look forward to hearing your most difficult questions.


      • Tim: didn’t mean to suggest that you should post your end-to-end solution since I know you are still investigating it. I think most searchers fall into this category. For instance, I think it’s quite natural to have a WWWH that one has confidence in, but then spend years investigating downstream (no pun intended) possibilities for the remaining clues. I fall into this category; I imagine JDA does as well. And since I think we can all agree that WWWH has been solved by only a tiny fraction of searchers, people are not likely to share their starting points.

        So I think the more practical approach is to provide a checklist for searchers to “score” their own solutions. I’ll work on putting one together. Off the top of my head I can think of at least 30-40 tests that a solution would need to pass.

        • If you have the original “survey” questions someone put out here, elimnate those, I passed all of them.

          I think someone then put together a listing of quotes by FF. I think I answered all of those the way it was posed or had a defined answer. You could eliminate those two…as I think I managed to clear those questions too.

          I’m running out of questions or statements that can help.

          Thanks zap…no harm no foul….I guess I like to be direct in my thoughts and some folks find them to be a bit “too direct”. No intendions at all to be disrespectful….just collaborative in some ways.

          Did I give you any new ideas or avenues you haven’t travelled?

      • Tim –

        I should say I love this idea. It’s the best idea ever. I would love to see you and Zap sitting across a table in the courtyard of Taos Inn.

        Zap Is your TC above 500 feet but below 10200?
        Tim Yes


        • …mine sits below 8k and yes, above 5k.

          I also believe the elevation is related to the “200” in the “below 10,200 ft” refetence FF made.

          Why would he use a specific elevation above 10k (10200k), and not just 10k?

          Coincidence? – my search area is at one of these three levels – 5200, 6200, or 7200 feet (below 8k)….okay….okay……or……there abouts….GE gave me this elevation.

          Did that help?


          • Tim

            I’m sorry I wasn’t clear. I’m not asking you. I’m saying I would love to see Zap interview you to see if your solve passes the test.


      • Hi Tim,
        I’m your huckleberry ! I’m going to be honest and say that I really don’t follow everything on here. That being said, I don’t have a clue about your solve or even what state you’re looking in. BUT…I would like to ask you a few questions for my own piece of mind, some are on point, some have noting to do with anything. I can’t be straightforward ! Lol If you don’t answer, I understand.
        1. What state are you in?
        2. Do you have more than one blaze, like many in here do?
        3. Do you have to cross bodies of water from WWWH, if so, how many times?
        4. Does your “marvel gaze” have anything to do with star gazing?
        5. How far is it from your WWWH to your blaze?
        6. Have you figured out what the dancing gypsies mean or represent?
        7. Is there a Sedan near your blaze?
        8. Knowing your own strength & health, how long do you think it will take you to go from your car to the treasure in one trip?
        9. Would you be able to bring a 2 year old with you to your spot safely?
        10. Do you think that the statement of 4 cards & a joker has anything to do with poker?
        11. Why does a 79 or 80 year hid a treasure he can’t carry in one trip?
        12. Have you found the beaver in TTTC?
        13. Do you know what the 96 is in reference too?

        There, just a few for ya! Sorry, 13 is my favourite #! Please only answer what you like or non at all, just a curious mind!

  27. Hi Tom,
    You said, . The question I have is did they pass by because they did not recognize the blaze, or because the blaze was not visible from their location?
    IMO, They didn’t recognise the blaze for what it is & walked right by the blaze & indulgence.

    • I’m leaning that way too Birdie. But I also think it is possible that searchers were walking along a trail that parallels the creek; that this trail is 200 to 500 feet away from the creek, that the blaze is in or adjacent to the creek, and trees between the creek and the trail blocked the view.

  28. No worries Zap. I agree with you, only because I posted on that a while back. I know what you are saying.

    “Let me put it this way. If you ever start feeling sentimental, go to Barstow, California. When you get here, walk into a florist and buy a bunch of flowers. Then you take those flowers to Huntington cemetery on Fuller and Guadalupe, look for the headstone marked Paula Schultz, then lay them on the grave. Because you will be standing at the final resting place of BEATRIX KIDDO”.

    Come on Kenn, do you really feel that is how f wrote up the poem? How would anything like that stand the test of time?
    How could you go into the mountains and forest with that type of thinking? How would I know what tree to go by? How many trees? or rocks, or whatever? No man made structures, no trail close, no cemetery, lol, good luck without numbers…

    • When I was in the military we did it all the time. You have to spend some time in the mountains or afield as they say to tune into that sort of environment. Get away from numbers for a while and it’ll become second nature.

    • “Come on Kenn, do you really feel that is how f wrote up the poem”?

      No, I don’t think that is how F. wrote the poem, nor did I imply such a thing.

      I was merely showing you an example of how to give someone directions to a “random place” without using numbers.

      Do you think Forrest Fenn just picked a random spot to hide his treasure???

      • I believe the spot Mr. Fenn picked for indulgence is the spot his family would stay on the road trip to & from Yellowstone. The same place they would leave their camping gear. I know a lot of people believe that it is hid near the park but they wouldn’t need camping gear in Yellowstone, they stayed in cabins there, they didn’t camp. I think Mr. Fenn & his family came this way for a particular reason but that I can’t share.

        • Birdie-
          There are so many things wrong about your statement above that it’s hard to know where to begin with corrections…Maybe it’s easier to just ignore it…

          • Dal,
            I hope that didn’t come across arrogant, I am so far from that. I’m as easy going as they come & I apologise if I came across that way to you or anyone else. Time will tell if I’m right or wrong. If there is an announcement around June 2018, that might be me but you will never see my face on the morning shows. Thank you for your opinion, it really is appropriate.

          • Birdie – don’t worry, you’re not arrogant imho ..tbh i strongly suspect Dal is jus’ grumps coz his triffid escaped again 🙁

            (Dal – don’t worry, it couldn’t have scuttled too far 🙂 )

          • curious hobbit,
            Thanks, for the pep talk,! Dal shot me down about 3 1/2 years ago too. I offered him all my information for a small fee if he found it. I was in the process of moving to Australia & didn’t think I was ever going to search again. I have a thick skin, a country girl gets knocked down all the time but no one has ever keep me there. 😎

          • no worries Birdie – hope ya moved to Oz anyway, as i’ve trav’d both coasts extensively and abso-agree your philosophy re: ‘no thin skinned humans need apply’..
            ( was a fun learning curve, tbh 🙁 )

            (Dal prolly had bothersome guests again, i reckon – yeap yep yep yep yep yep 🙂 )

          • Thanks JDA,
            Email me & I will tell ya what those 2 pictures are y’all were talking about on page 90 the other day. I can prove to you what they are. Again, thank you for being so nice to me in here, it’s a hard crowd in here.

          • Since I do not have you email address -email me at SculptorJDA@aol,com – Thanks for the kind words – JDA

        • Everyone always goes a particular way for a reason; do you think F.’s father’s reason was that important to F.?

          • Kenn,
            You asked, Everyone always goes a particular way for a reason; do you think F.’s father’s reason was that important to F.?

            I think his father’s reasons for taking that route was important for the whole family. I think he picked indulgence’s spot because of something his family found on one of their stays there.

          • Birdie;

            Again I agree – Are you sure we are not in the same area? – email me so we can talk – JDA

          • I agree with you too B. Don’t fret if folks don’t agree, they shoot holes in my theories too. This place will thicken your coat.

        • If your numbers tell you WWWH, then it has to be a place, as such that place CAN be found without using numbers. So why do you need numbers to find it in the first place?

          F. said all a person needs to find the treasure is the poem and a good map.

          If you use numbers to pick a starting point; how are you going to check it against the poem?

          • numbers get coordinates. The path to get there starts at a certain place. F has also said, if you had the coordinates you could go right to the chest. Also, here’s someone who may find the chest because she’s done the math and knows where it is.
            If you don’t have numbers, you don’t have a solve…

        • Charlie,

          When you find the treasure you most certainly can give the coordinates.

          I believe using coordinates to find the 1st, 2nd, 3rd etc, clues is of no value. There is nothing to suggest that using coordinates in the poem. All F ever said, “…. if you had the coordinates you could go right to the chest.”

          I could give the exact coordinates when I find the chest and never use Longitude and Latitude in my search.

          Using coordinates or even any numbers is folly on the outset. Just because F made the comment is not an indication that one must use coordinates in the search. Use the poem and a good map, is a means to go from one clue to the next like a road map when you travel. Do you use coordinates only when you travel? Most likely not.

          All IMO

          • Why so many darn Ken’s and Charlie’s? I wouldn’t doubt it’s FF using a few Charlie and Ken surnames to mess with us. I know one Charlie, my uncle, and zero Ken’s personally yet there are like 5 are 6 here.

          • That’s your problem Charlie, you are trying to solve the clues. You don’t know what clues there are besides WWWH and the blaze. That means that you have to guess at what a clue is, and guessing finds nothing. The only real thing that can stand the test of time is coordinates.
            Solve the poem, trying to solve the clues is fruitless. Also, there is only one set of coordinates in the poem, there are no coordinates for clues 1,2,and 3 like you say. Scratch that, there are two sets of coordinates. That’s it.
            No, I do not use coordinates when I travel, but I didn’t hide the chest.
            Lug, you open yourself for a good come back with that line, I won’t take advantage.

          • To simple Charlie.

            If there were coordinates in the poem the TC would have been found.

            Unless,not course, you are the smartest person that has ever tried them.


          • wait a minute ..there’s a “good day” here on HoD??

            (shhh!! – don’t tell everyone ..or they’ll ALL want one 🙂 )

          • Well said CharlieM. I agree completely. Forrest has given us landmarks (warm waters, home of Brown, blaze) and routes (canyon down, creek) to guide us to the treasure. No coordinates needed in my opinion.

          • Well spoken Tom B. If FF planted coordinates in his poem it is hard believe that he believes the TC could stay hidden as long as he thinks it will. The clues in the poem are much harder than a solution that leads to coordinates IMO.

          • Charlie,

            I never guess at the clues, and I have never left out any clues. That’s just lopsided thinking by you and guessing.

  29. Zap…First, let me start by saying that after all is said and done; your efforts to share what you have worked diligently on, is beyond reproach. There will be those that agree and those that do not. That is human nature at its best.
    I believe Fenn has done his best to keep the playing field as even as is possible given the exposure the Chase has received. His willingness to remain active and extend himself publicly is just phenomenal. There have been a few dark moments along the way and he has gone above and beyond in all regards.
    With that said…We all know(I think) that Fenn has repeatedly said that he will not hand out any more “clues”, and that everyone has the same info to work with. Fair enough.
    There has been heavy debate about what a clue is/does; and what a hint is/does. There also has been heavy discussion about where the clues are/are not, and where the hints are supposed to be. A good debater could argue all of those points until we all fall over…even taking into account all of the ATF and other Fenn particulars.
    I will end this by saying that I have kept track/noticed an enormous number of abernomalations(new word) over the past few years that have been presented in all manners of Fenn’s comms. What to do with them? Is he just messing with folks? Stirring the pot? Repeating things folks send him? Devising little scenarios with his staged photos from his house that relate to something from his stories? Misspelled words? Misquotes? The list goes on…and on. Are these real hints? Are they “Easter Eggs”? Are they trail markers? Sign posts? Red herrings?
    The scenarios are endless, and I have spent a ton of time plugging them into different angles I have. Your “strawman” scenario had a bit more “flesh” in it than you admit, so….here it is. In your estimation, how many “Easter Eggs” have you actually plugged in to your search area?
    I don’t care where your area is, I am just curious to what you have in that respect. You tell me…I’ll tell you.

    • Hi ken — sorry for the delay in getting back to you. Wasn’t ignoring you, just trying to take care of low-hanging fruit first.

      Thank you for your kind words regarding my efforts to share a little bit of information on our favorite little island of misfit toys.

      “I believe Fenn has done his best to keep the playing field as even as is possible given the exposure the Chase has received. His willingness to remain active and extend himself publicly is just phenomenal.”

      It is certainly unusual for the puzzle designer to continue to interact with the would-be puzzle solvers.

      “With that said…We all know(I think) that Fenn has repeatedly said that he will not hand out any more “clues”, and that everyone has the same info to work with. Fair enough.”

      No argument. I am in agreement that it is fully his intention to remain aloof as far as providing new clues.

      “I will end this by saying that I have kept track/noticed an enormous number of abernomalations(new word) over the past few years that have been presented in all manners of Fenn’s comms.”

      There are certainly a tremendous number of anomalies and aberrations.

      “What to do with them? Is he just messing with folks? Stirring the pot?”

      I’m sure that’s what most people choose to believe, because the alternative would suggest that something bigger might be going on, which could be a pretty disturbing revelation if you have no idea what it could be.

      “Repeating things folks send him? Devising little scenarios with his staged photos from his house that relate to something from his stories? Misspelled words? Misquotes? The list goes on…and on. Are these real hints? Are they “Easter Eggs”? Are they trail markers? Sign posts? Red herrings?”

      Nobody knows for sure, except to say he’s doing something deliberately. I tend away from the idea that they’re red herrings because Forrest has in the past said he had no intentions to deceive.

      “Your “strawman” scenario had a bit more “flesh” in it than you admit, so….here it is. In your estimation, how many “Easter Eggs” have you actually plugged in to your search area?”

      I have not counted — there are too many. It’s well into the hundreds. I have no doubt that some of them are simple coincidences, but the shear volume of them in my opinion eliminates any chance that they’re ALL coincidental. I think Forrest has had a lot of fun dreaming up different ways to tease us all with a wide variety of puzzles, both verbal and visual.

      • Are you saying you have plugged hundreds into your search area? Or…are you saying you have uncovered hundreds period?
        If you are saying…your SArea, What is the radius(in miles) of the area with the anomalies.

      • Hi ken — the hundreds of winks/eggs/anomalies/aberrations that I’m ~claiming~ I’ve found each refer to one of a dozen or so named geographic features in my area of interest. In other words, there are dozens of these for each geographic feature. I don’t want to give a precise radius that encompasses all the features, so let’s just say it’s less than 10 miles.

  30. Ken – Abernomalations!!! Siriusly great word. Speaking of perhaps “staged” photos or funny coinkidinks, the other day I was browsing Nedra Matteucci (rhymes with Gucci) gallery in Santa Fe and there is an actual treasure chest there…much bigger than the one we are looking for but it looks just like the traditional pirate’s chest. We had a lot of fun posing with that. The funny thing is, I walked right past it and it took my 85 year old dad to point it out to me. No wonder I haven’t found the real deal yet.

    • Sandy….I would love to see that other chest at Nedra’s. Your dad sounds like a hot ticket and I bet he loved all the art.
      Kenn…don’t read the posts that don’t have paragraphs, just move along nicely.

  31. hi i use the term sub so i might receive the comments being made. I can then read them. if i feel i have something to add i add it but most days i just read along to keep up. without subbing i have no idea on what is being discussed nor do i know if i have something to say. bye

  32. Every spot on earth has a coordinate. So, if you knew the coordinates of TC ,of course you could walk right to it! I have a solve and I never deduced to a spot using coordinates . It’s is inherent to see numbers in the poem with letters and words being given a numerical representation. I don’t think numbers created the words but the words simply can be allocated a number or number sequence. Numbers are simply a bi-product of a formed word but not having any part in the process of the creating of the words. IMO of course. Many are ardent about numbers being key to that of whatever is. Maybe them are right and my opinion is not. Maybe that is why it took 15 years to write the poem using numbers forming actual word clues of location points that will rhyme together and make it all make sense coordinately .A perfect marry of numbers to words, rhyming so succinct of descriptive clues of a specific spot, that you will see coordinates applicable to a map.

    Key word or word that is key? My mind is now numberd.

    I dunno and I really only have an opinion. Nothing more. I just don’t know anything for certain. If numbers are important he I am hooped. Lol

    • hi Alt.

      Remember….coordinates are made up of multiple sections – one being “minutes”.

      Unfirtunarely, without BOTG, one minute of ‘travel time’ even for a satellite, can be a number of feet.

      I know in one minute, I can walk about 200 ft, so that tells me that coordinates will only bring a person to that closeness anyhow…which causes BOTG to occur.

      Also remember GE can zoom in closely, but the actual details of the area will be different, due to time and envirnment, this causes one to realize BOTG is inevitable.

      Could Coors mates exist in the poem…I think so…shoot, some folks have found these “numbers”….or do they say.

      – the date 06-20-2010 – “Father’s Day”
      – the number “23” – relative to a “row” & “block” per pg 147….
      – “44” – not sure on how, but it had been mentioned as a longitude/latitude reference
      – the number “9” – repeats itself
      – the number “166” – word count
      – the number “6” – six stanzas

      …we could go on…maybe Dal can create a new blog…just based upon all the theories that include or how numbers play a part in the hint.

      Interesting topic, if you ask me, but that is because I love numbers and there meanings.


      • Hey Tim. I can see numbers in everything and anything. Heck, I am darn good at roulette. Numbers are my thing too. But in this case of the poem , I do not see numbers as part of the process of creating the 9 clues. It is poetry ,after all! Seeing numbers is an easy choice in perception but I don’t think it is in practice.

        Anyways, remember FF forgot to name the poem.

        In literature:
        The end always gives nod to the beginning . ” I give you tittle to the gold”. There is not tittle of the poem. There is more than gold in the chest, trove and treasures.

        Hmm…..give you tittle to the gold. So, could this be a hat tipper to the word that is key? Not inferring one of the words of this last line is the word that is key. But I explore this idea present. There are two anomalies that handshake in the poem. They are: no poem title and ‘ tittle to the gold’. There is more than gold in this chest ( do the math if you like) So , perhaps the word is not what I see but what I hear when I finish reading it.

        “Hear me all and listen good” .

        Word, not a number. In my opinion.

    • Of Course Alsetenash –

      If there were coordinates in the poem they would have been found by now.

      No one here is going to say how they found co ordinates and what spot that is on the map. If they did I would just knock it down. That’s easy because you just take whichever method is being used, apply it to another piece of the poem and see that it leads to Mongolia. Literally I have done that.

      Somone showed me what they have come up with last weak and it was so non sensible that Fenn should be offended.

      The person that is the biggest mystery is Zap. He is smart enough to see how off base he is and it’s not greed. I’m stumped as to what compels him to peruse lines of thinking that he would shun others for, absolutely flummoxed.


  33. PB, just to clarify, when you said “I have my reasons, because I think he’s told us so.”, are you saying that you believe that he said there is more than one structure that make up the blaze? If so, do you care to share what he said that made you believe that?

  34. I believe the numbers come from the pages in the book. Page 43 and 109 are the exact same location, I think. I’m happy to share that info in hopes of helping someone. My new key word is “power.”

    Some of you long time searchers should actually get together and hash out your ideas face to face. There is so much brilliance floating around these pages. Build a team and plan an unforgettable spring hunt. I’d like to take my son to see this chest in a museum before he’s too cool to go to museums with his Mum.

    • 43 and 109

      Hey Copper. It that a reference to North and West positions?

      43 North and 109 West places you right below Yellowstone does it not? Any further clues to more precise positions?


      • The 43 is. Page 43 in the book matches a location of 43N. However, the Western piece landed at 108. Page 109, for my solve, is actually the same location as page 43…..the blonde kids holding the rope passing the vehicle. It took me a looooong time too see page 109. Side bar: look again at the pictures of Forrest’s daughters. When they were kids side by side, the outline of their little hairdo’s forms to matching omegas. Could be coincidence.

        I have a piece of this puzzle but not all of it. I’ve decided not to hunt physically any longer so I’ll be happy to share my thoughts.

  35. If you don’t see the numbers it may be that you just don’t follow the instructions in the poem. No big thing, just one different way of solving the poem. Darts and a map don’t work, guessing doesn’t work, might as well try something different in accordance to what he ha s been saying all along. Some examples (I apologize to all the vets for bringing this up again):
    Line 21, So hear me all and listen good. ar is an instruction, So “he” AR “me”. Gives you Some. Some all and l IS ten go od. Is being an instruction, The sum of a+l+l+l is ten go od. This is one way to break down a line. There are 3 values: A=1,L=3, or A=7, L=1, or A=4,L=2.
    The thing is his choice of words. The word “good” serves a purpose. To go odd. Now you have 2 choices. So, now you cannot say there are no numbers. You may not believe that is the way to solve the poem, but it is following what you are instructed to do. All 24 lines can be broken down this way. That is impossible to have unless it is done by design.
    The answer to the above is A=7,L=1. You have examples all throughout the poem of Fenn giving letter values, all you have to do is look.
    No paddle up your creek. No is an instruction, NO “p” add le up your creek. Blaze, bl as e. Gaze, g as e. With his ATF comments of coordinates and do the math, along with countless email comments to support, it just goes to figure there are numbers. Shouldn’t say no before at least trying to find them. Or not, just when it’s time to go into the woods, I hope there is no counting involved for your sake. Here’s a bone:
    Eric Sloane. Sloane Eric= 313723 3133. 19 10. Who’s who. Why is a butterfly a flutterby? Because B=F+L. Everyone has there way of breaking down the poem, and getting numbers, if you don’t have a number system, it wouldn’t hurt to try and find one. The “alphabet” may unlock the poem…

    • charlie;

      I can barely remember my phone #, my address and SSAN, and you want me to figure out what you just wrote?
      you say, “Line 21, So hear me all and listen good. ar is an instruction, So “he” AR “me”. Gives you Some. Some all and l IS ten go od. Is being an instruction, The sum of a+l+l+l is ten go od. This is one way to break down a line. There are 3 valuesThere are 3 values: A=1,L=3, or A=7, L=1, or A=4,L=2.” Sorry charlie – it’s just too deep for me. Not saying you ar(e) wrong, just too deep for me – JDA

      • Shoot JDA, I even know your phone number and address. The more you post, the closer I get to your SSN. :), just kidding.
        It’s just one way to break down the poem. Not hard at all. Believe me, After almost seven years, I have tried a lot of different things. And my end is your beginning, funny.

    • Charlie…that’s some “deep” thinking there. Fenn has spoken about imagination many times, and you sure are using yours. Keep up the good work…hope it works out.

    • Charlie. Exceptional effort you have put-in to this number scheme. Like, I said, there are always numbers in all things matter in form; though, not all things matter are derived by numbers. A word is a word with the intended use of the word. Not all words are intended as numbers in this . IMO . I see numbers within the poem only as a counting system and not cyphers or codes ( didn’t FF say something about this?)

      “Try the wheel “if ever you find TC.

      Happy number hunting.

      Just my opinion.

      • Alsetenash, good post, that’s what I expect from someone that can think. I follow what you are saying, maybe it’s just the way I explained it. Actually, there are only a couple number examples. Sometimes a word is just a word. There is no cyphers or codes, even though those have been positively used in solving the poem.
        I have a good wheel:
        The distance of the tangent is a number that he has used.
        Zap has commented on his number 23. For me, 23 lines of the poem will get me to the 8th clue. The coordinates. And the spot where there is a bell. The ninth clue goes with the key. Line 24 and the key. For me again, to know the key is to know the numbers, to do the math, and follow the shadow. It’s just the numbers in the poem apply to all. To many coincidences to not be done by design. Plus, I’m not smart enough to come up with what I’ve found. No way. In it’s simplicity, I know I didn’t fabricate it. It would have taken someone time to figure this out.
        It’s winter time, if you already have a solve then would not hurt to try or look for the numbers, it may pan out. Always looking…

        • Thanks Charlie. Numbers are always involved in everything. Numbers are not always an intended factor defacto being represented . There’s 9 clues and there is also unknown amounts of places the clues refer to. There is numbers to be seen because it is also language. There’s only 9 digits for numbers no matter the figure. There are 26 letters in our alphabet and there are as many words as there are number figures.

          I dunno. Hard to write a poem using numbers as a catalyst for words. IMO.

          I mainly just use the poem and FF’s Q&A’s for focus of a solve.

    • Charlie,

      I completely disagree using numbers, alphabet and involving Erik Sloane is going to solve the poem. How is that working for you so far?

      How about using the poem as you read it, to lead you to the treasure.

      My way is working great for me, its simply following the directions and knowing what wwwh, hob, blaze, etc are. The proof to me will be this coming spring.

      All IMO

      • Okay, when did Fenn say hoB was a clue? You show me that. How do you know what the blaze looks like? How are you knowing wwwh? you don’t have the chest, I thought we would only know that we had the first clue right when we had the chest? What about your other 6 clues? All guesses. If that is great for you, so be it. I GUESS we will see in the Spring.
        I don’t see your point, how could you think E. Sloane has nothing to do with it?
        The fact is I did use the poem like I read it. F spells words wrong, in the military, a pilot, a hustler, lol, no numbers, really. Good luck.
        And, for me so far, it turns out pretty good. I guarantee I have a lot more than you, by the mere fact that I know you are guessing. Do you follow directions to make a cake or instructions? Fenn uses instructions, I think I will try the same.

        • Charlie,

          I never said I did’t follow the clues. The point is your basis to Eric Sloane hasn’t proven in any way to solve the poem for anyone. Nor has the use of numbers etc proven in solving the poem.

          I truly believe your use or anyone else that those methods will prove to be false when all is said a done. That is my opinion and to use the poem as it is. I would tend to believe that those that are using the poem in an un-convoluted way will have better results.

          • Hard to take this poem at face value at first and come up with a solve. Eric Sloane helps with the blaze. It’s not the numbers that solve the poem, they give you coordinates. If I said Begin with 4 and 6, what would you think? Latitude, right? That’s what I get from lines 5 and 6. In the end. They don’t break down to that. Line 5, to me, Begin with epsom. Or better yet, Begin with warm water salt. There’s a lot going on. For my wwwh, since the numbers gave me the end coordinates, my starting place would be Anaconda Montana. What I know of the area: A place that is dear to him= Deer Valley, to rest his bones= Deer Lodge, Warm Spring Creek, highway 1= Veterans memorial highway “that shiny black war memorial, which is constantly being washed clean by the tears of a million visitors.” The area is part of the Yellowstone Geyser system just dormant now. Anaconda has a hardware store next to warm spring creek that use to be a train station, nailed down. Built by Robert NICKEL. Follow hwy 1 to Evergreen st, church at the end of the street is where you park, Fifer Gulch is the canyon down.
            It’s not just one thing that makes up wwwh, it’s many hints, but you first started there because of the coordinates that the poem gave. The poem does not solve for wwwh, IMO. As you can see, if you were to ask me what I get for line 5, I would just say 4. Or Begin with warm water salt. That sure does not direct to Anaconda. That is one reason I say you cannot solve all the clues before you head out, because the third clue is just passed the tree line. Would not know unless BOTG. Could guess, but wouldn’t know for sure.
            The poem does not solve a wwwh, or lets you know what the blaze looks like. Those are the only clues we know of, and there is no answer. Just guesses. If you solve the poem, it’s like putting an “X” on a map. The clues will be followed in order because there is no other way. Some clues you can solve with the poem at home, but not all. It’s the solving of the poem that in the end solves the clues. But, who really cares about the clues, just the last one is important, remember? If it’s difficult but not impossible, to me, that says it’s almost impossible, and that seems to go with the thought of not being able to know the clues or solve for all of them. In theory yes, in reality…lol…you decide.
            After your solve of the poem, you then could see the face value of the poem and understand what he is saying, but to get to where you need to be, need to find a way to solve the poem, and face value will not cut it. Need to be “confident”, only one way to do that. Just need to define confidence, that’s all. Knowledge, physical training, and a good 9 will help.

  36. JDA, you said “Why couldn’t you have driven the two miles, parked your car, and then walked from the parking lot into the store ”

    Correct me if I am wrong Lug but by FF saying that the clues must be followed in order Lug is suggesting that we have to park at the beginning. If there were clues to get into the grocery store in your example had to be followed in order then parking at the parking lot would mean starting at a later clue unless parking lot was WWWH.

    • That’s right, parked at WWH.

      Other wise, as I keep asking, someone please tell me what he could possibly mean.

      By “I walked from my car to the TC twice and did it in one afternoon” does he just mean steps/clues 5-9???

      • Lug;

        Take the words as they are presented: ““I walked from my car to the TC twice and did it in one afternoon”

        He walked from his car – wherever it was parked.
        It COULD have been parked at wwwh
        It COULD have been parked at hoB
        It COULD have been parked at the meek location
        It COULD have been parked at the END location.
        It COULD have been parked at the No Paddle site
        IT COULD have been parked at the Heavy Loads loc.
        It COULD have been parked at the Water High site.
        It COULD have been parked at any site or location between any of the above mentioned places.

        From WHEREVER it was parked, he walked (hiked) to the TC location (twice) in one afternoon.

        What has Forrest EVER said that would indicate that he HAD to park at wwwh site. Yes, I know the quotes about solving the first two clues and walked past the others. For me, this too is open to interpretation.

        Ain’t the chase grand? So many ways to interpret even the simplest thought or word – even what is “it”?

        I am not saying that Iam right Lug, nor am I saying you are wrong. All I am saying is, leave room in your thought processes for other ideas. It is “MY” opinion that you are restricting your search area FAR too much by looking at the world as you appear to be looking at it – JMO – JDA

        • p.s. – I am not sure that LOGIC can be taught.

          We each see the poem from our own backgrounds. Some of us wear rose colored glasses, some of us goggles, some of us binoculars, some of us glasses, and some of us blindfolds.

          How do you describe the color red? We each know what we see, and interpret as red, but are you seeing the same thing that I am seeing? Probably not. Something similar, but probably not exactly what I am visualizing. Ain’t life grand? JDA

          • JDA,

            You and I must be brothers from a different mother so to speak. I say that because I was just considering something related to eyesight this afternoon, but going down that real dep rabbit hole is something this old brain cannot/will not process.

            Just curious, I’m Cancer, what’s your sign?


          • Agreed JDA, and I think one of the most difficult things about this is that FF sees something different than all of us.

      • WWH–Driving–Take it in the canyon down–Driving–Not far but to far to walk–Park the car–Change of venue–Just one mans opinion…Thats as far as I got,had to shut her down till spring…

    • Lug,

      The only time you would park the car is to retrieve the treasure.

      In the beginning from wwwh, you can’t drive any vehicle and you can part way of too far too walk. The rest of the travel, one can use any vehicle to get to, below the hob and to where the blaze is at. From there you do have to walk to get to where the treasure is hidden, which is well inside of 500 ft, more closely to 200 ft. From wwwh to the treasure is a little more than 15 miles which by all means is too far to walk.

      One can travel from wwwh to the treasure simply looking at a map. I will say it is the best method of travel that brings one to put botg to get the treasure. All IMO

      • CharlieM. I happen to agree with your estimate of around 15 miles from where warm waters halt to the treasure, but i’m not as sure as you seem to be. Could you explain how you came to that distance?

        • Tom.

          I determined the distance using the map and the clues. My solve easily IMO fits the poem and its description of the area to a tee. No guessing at all. When I guess in my past line of work will put me out of work.

          • Tom,

            Is it would be Coincidence only if you are in the same area. No way to tell as I will not disclose my area or state, nor will I confirm your area as mine.

            Good luck 🙂

    • F. never said the clues “must” be followed in order, he said they “should” be followed in order.

      • One of the things he did say was: ““There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f JDA

          • Hey JDA , Hey Ken

            I like this …
            May I chime in a little?

            JDA is correct f did say those things.
            But I completely disagree. If that were
            true then why would Doug Preston write ; the last clue would be where he left his car in Denver?
            Wouldn’t the last clue then be in your understanding of the clues be the position of the chest .. Thats how most see it . I do not. But thats just me.
            No offense guys this is just my opinion is all . But he did say both things. Wouldn’t you agree.


        • The distinction is this…

          “must” means it’s necessary.
          “should” means it’s a good idea, but not necessary.

          • Nope, sorry Kenno

            When the police says you should keep the speed down, he means keep it down.

            Clues should be followed means that they to be followed


          • Ok when he says the clues should be followed in order that means follow the. In order.

            I guess of you want to bet that he didn’t mean that I will wish you luck

          • I think it’s a moot point, because I’m going to follow them in whatever order they present themselves in.

  37. Lugnutz: so if you believe you must walk all 9 clues from where you park, what mode of transportation are you assuming from WWWH down the canyon? Cuz you can’t be walking … or are you ignoring the “but too far to walk” instruction? At least you and Seeker are in agreement with each other that you’re parking at WWWH, but you two are definitely in the minority on that opinion.

    I don’t park until I “Put in below the home of Brown.” *That* is a straightforward reading of the poem. You protest that if that’s the case, why didn’t he make home of Brown his starting point and dispense with WWWH altogether? Answer: because WWWH is solvable as a first clue, and home of Brown is not (in my opinion). There are a million homes of Brown and a billion blazes, so those don’t make good starting points. IMO, there is precisely one WWWH (as Forrest has designed it), and so starting there with his clues goes a long way toward eliminating all the incorrect homes of Brown.

    • Zap, put me in the Seeker, lugnutz group. Park just before heading into the canyon down. No motorized vehicles.

      • “Zap, put me in the Seeker, lugnutz group. Park just before heading into the canyon down. No motorized vehicles”

        I tend to agree. Because it is to easy to lean toward PIBTHOB as the parking and walking spot I doubt it is that. Since the majority are going with that theory and hundreds or thousands have been wrong thus far it is hard for me to side with them. When sports betting in Vegas people say do the opposite of the majority many times.

        I would not be surprised if either you are walking from WWWH or the direct opposite and you are walking from either water high or the blaze.

    • Zap. That is well stated. A straightforward reading says that, in Forrest’s opinion, the distance from where warm waters halt to home of Brown is too far to walk, which would mean some other form of transportation.

      • In my opinion the poem covers an area of about 200 square miles. If you really want to follow the clues, you have to drive a car for over 20 miles. The driving is from ‘where warm waters halt’ all the way to ‘the end is ever drawing nigh’. I know, this violates Mr Fenn’s statent where he says followed the clues when he hid the chest, but there is a simple way to reconcile this contradiction. If the chest was hidden at the blaze, as some searches think, the chest would have been found long time ago. In my opinion Mr Fenn parked his car very close to clue 9 and then walked fraction of a mile with the chest.

    • Oh I thought that was obvious. I do not believe you go down into a canyon.

      Be said he didn’t and you know the quote. I will paraphrase.

      AN 80 year old man isn’t going down in a canyon and back up twice.

      He said that after the the death in the Rio Grande of the Parson. The Parson, by the way, was NOT going in the canyon, just leaning over the edge to look down.

      Did you take that to mean Fenn drove down the canyon?

      And you are not answering my question.

      When Fenbs says two trips from his car in afternoon do you think he is just referring to the second half of the journey???


      • He drove along a road from wwwh to the place where the road and the canyon are adjacent to the home of Brown, then he got out and walked over to the canyon, then he went down it it. Then he walked up the creek for a short distance, crossed the creek and went up the other side, and planted the TC beneath the blaze. Then he went back and did it again.

          • Franklin, So there are many roads, waters, canyons, Browns, creeks and even blazes…it should not give anything away for you to say which state you have identified. So which state is it? And finally, what about that pesky “wood”?

      • Lugz,
        I believe it was when Randy went missing… the Q&A;
        Q ~ Who else knows where the treasure is buried?
        A ~ I never said it was buried. I’ve avoided that word. I hid it. I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t buried. I just didn’t want to give that as a clue. It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know.

        This Q&A is the only one I know of that fenn used the word “in” my car instead of “from” my car.
        Slip of the tongue…
        True statement…

        Who knows, but like I said, this is the only comment about any trip that states “in” my car while all the others state “from” my car two trips in one afternoon, with the contents and the chest second, and walked less than a few miles… [ multiple statements ].

        The other comment that that might be of interest;
        “To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete [ completed? ]”
        Does completed mean released to the public…
        Not finished…
        Had to do something that represents a clue that was done at the time of the hide…

        Then we have;
        “…I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.f ”
        And many other comments. Personally, I think many are attempting to reverse engineer fenn’s comments of hiding the chest, in hopes to make their favorite place and clues work for their solves. Maybe it’s just me… but that backwards process is only going to make a solve work no matter where one thinks the chest is, and less on the actual poem itself.

        • Seeker

          Thanks, that’s the sure about an 80 year old man not going down in a canyon. Should cover driving or walking right?


      • Lug: short answer is yes. Fenn didn’t retrace all 9 clues twice in one afternoon. He only retraced the clues from home of Brown (in my opinion). It’s logical. It’s consistent. It violates nothing Forrest has said. And it’s simple. If you park at WWWH and start searching there, in the words of Ricky Ricardo, you’ve got a lot of ‘splainin’ to do.

  38. Tom B – I think that’s at least 20 miles. From Forrest’s story, Treasures Galore:

    “If some of my friends think I’m wrong to be a distant dreamer, vaguely disinterested in many of life’s modern habits, they could be correct. But “wrong” is one of those concepts that depends on witnesses and that’s why I’m always right when I’m alone in the mountains. I’ll happily share my national forests with you, but please try to stay at least twenty miles away..”

  39. Pinarubocharlie – I am answering your post down here, because the other thread above is waaaay too long:

    Thank you for posting the Piper Malibu specs for Lugnutz. That was really helpful. I could prove that Forrest flew into West Yellowstone Airport by calling a contact there, but I won’t bother. I don’t need to.

    As to the answers to your questions:

    1) sa-dan
    2) I am named for a Tudor also, kinda just like Bullet. My formal name is Elizabeth Anne, so technically, I could go by the initials, E.C. also. Ok, Lugnutz, don’t lose your head over that one.
    3) Skippy’s float plane was.a 2 seater with 2 pontoons. Are you saying that is a sedan?

    • Hi CharlieM

      If I an reading that correctly, sure it makes sense. As long as you don’t mean physical travel. If the solve by map allows you to “travel” From WWH to HoB that’s cool.

      That path by map would need to meet the standard of clues follows precisely, consecutively and only one way to do it.

      Am I understanding you?


  40. “The letter that you wrote me
    Made me stop and wonder why
    But I guess you felt you just had to set things right.

    But let me tell you this, my girl, when you look up in the sky,
    You can see the stars but still not see the light.

    And I’m already gone….
    And I’m feelin’ strong…
    I will sing this victory song..
    Cause I’m already gone.”

    The song makes me think of the poem. lol.

  41. charlie – i also believe your co-ord theory could hold some valid merit, for three reasons:

    1) Forrest was fluent at navigation/unit measure etc.. “You should feel smarter now because that’s so easy” which suggests that no especial knowledge is required for basic nav/alotment sizes etc, just a simple curiosity perhaps (?)
    (thanks loco/ColoKid for the too lost/forgotten FF:Land Surveyor link)

    2) followed by.. “If you want to apply those important figures into the thrill of the chase I will give you an additional clue..” and yes “north of SF” is obvious, but ‘important figures’ shouldn’t be totally over-looked either imho

    3) in NZ surveying, and bearing (with acquired distance) is more often referred to as a “line”

    4) if the Jolly Green Giant hadn’t already obtained a co-ord from the obs. rescue plane in Laos, Forrests ass might’ve been toast within 72hrs, imho

    but if i were forced to throw a coin into Trevi Foundation backwards (left hand over right shoulder etc) i’d hope that a ‘possible’ co-ord directs one toward WWWH ..or the proceeds go towards a local supermarket for the needy

    ( ..albeit, latter preferred 🙂 )

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