Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Forty


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621 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Forty

  1. morning Ken. I have a wea k, but odd solve in
    n. NM. Mr. Dal offered graciously to post it, but I didn’t want to use his time & data space. As i am not a serious botg threat to searchers due to 4
    squishy lumbars, and wld like 50k if it works for someone, i will send in bits my info to anyone requesting.

  2. Good morning to all! Nearly a foot of snow for us here in Wales.

    Given that I think logic plays a vital part in the Chase, I wanted to offer a few thoughts and questions.

    1. This first question has been argued to death, but I think it bears repeating.

    Forrest has declared that one of his primary objectives was to get people off their texting devices etc. and out into the wilderness. He has also suggested that you’ll need multiple BOTG sorties to complete the job (I’m NOT referring to the two trips from his car in one afternoon quote). Leaving aside the irony of spending countless hours poring over Google or reading/posting on the blogs, which is more likely: that you can solve the entire poem at home or that the Chase is designed so that you have to get out there a few times at least?

    (It’s the latter for me, and this is something that I’ve changed my mind on completely since my early searches. At one point it seemed logical that you could simply think your way through the poem to the ending. Now, for me, it’s clear that that isn’t the case, and if you want to find the treasure chest you have to get off your backside at some point – and not just to go pick up Indulgence. This seems to bear out what FF was saying about wanting to get folks out there.)

    2. Given that Forrest was a pilot, has written a number of articles about his flying experiences, and has exhorted us to consider the “big picture,” how likely is it that the total distance from WWWH to the hiding place is only a few miles or less?

    (Even if my current solution turned out to be incorrect, I’d still be convinced that the Chase covers many miles in geographic length. If it were contained within a confined area, the chances of accidental discovery would be magnified considerably, IMO. Also, you might be able to hit on the right spot simply through a process of WWWH elimination [however long-winded or unlikely that is]. If, on the other hand you are required to make a number of “course corrections” over considerable distance, the likelihood of accidental discovery is reduced by quite a margin, especially if the ending spot is geographically quite distinct from the start, and so is not “guessable.”)

    3. We have been told that we must follow the clues precisely. If you’re not into coordinates, how do you interpret precisely, particularly over distance?

    (I’d be really interested in a convincing theory for an alternative to coordinates over distance.)

    4. If more than one BOTG trip is necessary to find the treasure, how do you think FF has made sure that we are able to stay “on track” as we progress, particularly if considerable distance and course corrections are involved.

    (My own theory is that there are both physical and satellite image markers at critical points in the Chase. They are well camouflaged for obvious reasons, but for the observant they offer both confirmation and food for thought as you try to understand what to do next. The extent of these indicates that FF put a colossal effort into the treasure hunt beyond writing the poem and book.)

    5. Again, if more than one BOTG trip is required, why do you think that is?

    (I believe that FF has deliberately left the end point unknowable without a physical, confirmatory visit to the places the poem directs you. However, I also believe that once you near the actual hiding place you realize that the spot is “buried” logically but deeply within the poem itself. However, you’d have to be some kind of savant to be able to put it together without the knowledge picked up on BOTG searches.)

    6. We have been told that GE is a good resource. Why specifically GE?

    (I have noticed differences between, say, Google and Bing, that make Google Maps [or Earth] a much better resource. Not only are the images different, but you can achieve a level of magnification in Google that the others can’t match. Where I have an open mind is whether or not the relevant images searchable on Google have been achieved solely through manipulation of items on the ground, or whether, in a few cases, digital effects are involved. Where stones have been placed into formation, these are certainly discoverable on-site, but where it looks like sagebrush etc. has been repositioned or otherwise manipulated, I just don’t know… either way, it’s a lot of work! I know that many will doubt that such “signposts” even exist, but the logic of FF providing them is pretty much unassailable, IMO, if the flyer has made this a “flight plan” hunt.)

    Whatever people’s response to this type of question, I don’t think there’s any doubt that logic plays a huge part in the Chase.

    • Vox,
      Some interesting thoughts, and I’d like to comment on a ‘concept’ that seems to be prevalent through multiple points.

      In point 1, you write:
      “…which is more likely: that you can solve the entire poem at home or that the Chase is designed so that you have to get out there a few times at least? ”

      IMO, Forrest has commented multiple times about ‘knowing the location beforehand’ (paraphrased), and this seems to imply that, yes, “you can solve the entire poem at home”. However, it’s extremely unlikely, IMO, that any searcher would solve the poem on their first BOTG search, or even the first several searches. To my under-powered mind, the poem is very vague and open to a broad range of interpretations, and solving it requires, for me anyway, significant trial and error. IMO, solving the poem is an evolution of thought that consists primarily of finding the right mixture of logic, imagination, and perspective.

      In my experience, once I’ve glommed on to an idea or concept I believe F is utilizing for an informative word and/or phrase in the poem, I find it difficult to move my mind beyond that thought until I’ve proved it wrong. Unfortunately, proving it wrong usually involves BOTG. But for me, I won’t lace boots until I have a predetermined spot – typically a relatively small area – and that means when I’m BOTG, I’m no longer searching for answers to the poem, but for evidence of the TC’s spot (see 5 below).

      This same ‘evolution of thought’ concept is, IMO, relevant to your points 3, 4 (more below), and 5 (more below).

      With regard to point 4, while there may be superimposed markers on satellite imagery depending on the resource utilized, I don’t believe Forrest is using any intended on-the-ground physical markers (exception: see 5 below) that may or may not be visible on commercially available satellite imagery.

      Regarding point 5, I believe the endpoint is predetermined prior to BOTG given this theoretical ‘evolution of thought’ concept. Due to previous comments from Forrest, I believe the poem can be solved from the comfort of a chair using resources Forrest has mentioned. Once a searcher arrives at their location, I believe the appropriate question to ask is, “If I’m correct, what should I expect to see?” What I look for is the subtle touch of a human hand.

      All mere speculation based on what I’ve experienced. Good luck to you, sir.

      • Joe, thanks for your very detailed and coherent thoughts. One slight difference in our respective opinions would be that while I think one should be able to go with confidence, that doesn’t preclude having to make a number of exploratory trips beforehand, as an intended part of the Chase. I can’t recall the precise quotes, but I believe Forrest has said something like 5, 10, 20 etc. trips are in the ballpark, that one shouldn’t expect to take the treasure home in one trip, and that it’s not achievable on a Sunday afternoon picnic. (Seeker probably knows the exact words FF used on these three occasions.) To me that says that the hiding place probably can’t be completed prior to trip number one.

        I find your thoughts on satellite imagery very interesting indeed. I’ve heard it suggested that it might be possible to “intercept” what we see prior to us viewing it. I can’t imagine how that might be achieved, and would welcome knowing how such software might be utilized.

        Good luck to you too, Joe!

        • Thx, Vox. I don’t think we’re too far apart regarding the likelihood of success in early searches. Don’t we all want to believe we’ve figured it out? Reality asserting itself usually leads to humility – at least that’s my frequent experience.

          Regarding your “intercept” comment, I’m not sure if I understand your meaning. I recall a short while back someone responding to one of my comments with a response that mentioned “remote viewing”, but I think that’s more than a bit unrealistic. I believe we commoners are pretty limited in satellite imagery available, but it would certainly be interesting to see HD imagery used for military and/or scientific purposes at different times of the day to counter the problem of shadows.


          • Yes, Joe, I recall that remote viewing comment (not a method that I can subscribe to). I think I misunderstood your initial response in that regard. I was musing about how likely (or even possible) it would have been for Google’s digital image files to have been manipulated for the purposes of the Chase. I assume not very likely! But I do believe there are things for us to find and they seem to be there on Google more than via other media, which gave me pause for thought.

          • Vox,
            Yes, I agree it’s unlikely Ggl imagery has been modified for The Chase.

            With regard to GE versus other media, I would caution against relying solely on GE for named points accuracy, and I’m not talking about a ten to fifty foot nominal difference that seems quite common. I’ve found at least one significant contradiction between GE and good digital maps with regard to named geographic features, and that might be important to a searcher’s solution.


      • Joe ~ ‘ Once a searcher arrives at their location, I believe the appropriate question to ask is, “If I’m correct, what should I expect to see?”

        IMO, exactly the right question… the problem I think is happening is, The searcher have a predetermined clue “reference” [ and they could be correct ]
        But they don’t see it the way fenn might. This is where I think fenn gave us the video to explain… it’s not what you see, it’s what I can make you see, line of thinking.
        I also think that many searchers believe once the have a first clue, they must go to the sight and run the hill sides and valleys, look under every rock and log.
        IMO the is exactly what fenn hoped the poem would do… simple get folks out doing what he did all his life… exploring. But that imo is not the challenge.

        This is a “challenge” needing solving, and fenn gave us the information to be predetermined to; as you said; ‘finding the right mixture of logic, imagination, and perspective.’
        That part, imo might need the botg to finalize [ not find the chest at first ] but to see the clues in action – so to speak.

        Just for fun; a sorta step by step idea…
        1. analyze and think of the poem until a methodology appears with all the 9 clues ‘references’
        2. decide botg is now required.
        3. study the land / location… in this part, Imagination might be the key here, more than a point to point stomping. Observe and Adjusting what you have for clue references.
        4. Plan your trip… this may sound like I’m saying pack extra sock. But I think we need to imagine what fenn sees this location and uses the clues as he intended, not what we hope. This part of the challenge might require time. An extended stay for the searcher to observe… a time of year, a particular month, a morning or afternoon etc. etc.

        Fenn obviously has the advantage here… he knows what he’s looking at… we “only” [ at this point of the challenge ] have clue “references”… I think we need to utilize them or at least most of them.
        The smile on the face going to the locations certainty beforehand, and leaving with a grin, knowing the final stage was right in front of many people… but they might have lack or had the wrong imagination. or just simple kept going and going and going…

        Vox ~ ‘ Again, if more than one BOTG trip is required, why do you think that is?’

        I think that is the whole reason of the poem itself… it’s [the poem ] difficult enough, to make you “explore” the area… the reason fenn wanted everyone outside and away from the toys… and the lure if gold to give many the kick in the butt to even try.
        To find the chest is actually a second thought, imo. a lure to get you looking, out the wiles of nature.
        The solve is something completely different… it’s a challenge of the mind, not the hit and miss search mode.
        Fenn is going to make you work for that prize, but the work is not going to be physical, as much as, mental.

        “it’s not a matter of trying. It’s a matter of thinking…” Forrest Fenn

        • Seeker, you said
          “The solve is something completely different… it’s a challenge of the mind, not the hit and miss search mode.
          Fenn is going to make you work for that prize, but the work is not going to be physical, as much as, mental.”

          I thoroughly concur with this. One of the problems I find is that the concentration required to make breakthroughs is very hard to muster during the heat of the Chase itself. It’s almost always once I sink back into the plane seat or am tucked up in bed that those insights occur (and by then it’s frequently too late). But I also find that the BOTG search acts as the spur to these later insights.

          Although I’ve used the phrase “hit or miss” in relation to adjusting from one mode of thinking to a different one (as has been necessary in my two-part solution), I agree again that you need to have your ideas and groundwork pretty thoroughly mapped out prior to committing to a BOTG search.

    • Vox;
      I found your post interesting and evocative. Are multiple BotG trips necessary? Absolutely.
      Why? For me, the answer is simple. Multiple “trips” through the poem are required in order to find Indulgence. I know, this flies in the face of logic, and seems to go against a couple of Forrest’s ATF posts or writings.
      Almost two years ago, I developed my first solve. It took me to a particular place in Wyoming. “Everything fit” – but NO Indulgence. Back to the drawing board, back to maps and back to GE. Where did I go wrong? I found a logical answer – I had not gone far enough up a particular stream. So, I went farther upstream, and found another Blaze that made perfect sense. A thorough search of this area, involving multiple BotG searches revealed NO Indulgence.
      I was about to give up. One last “Trip” through the poem led me to a “man made” blaze. The previous two blazes had been natural (big) land features – This new blaze was “man made”. Undeniable – It gave me a direction to follow next. I followed it, and I then found Blaze #4 – It too was “man made”, and it too has pointed me in a specific direction, to a particular place. These are NOT coincidences, I was LED from two big natural blazes to a series of smaller “man made” blazes. These blazes follow a pattern. They were designed this way. By pattern, I do not mean a geometrical pattern on the ground, but something about each blaze fits a pattern. Knowing this pattern allows me to KNOW what the next blaze will look like.
      It takes knowlege (no d), experience and imagination (and a bit of ego) to keep searching. Each trip, I ask myself if this will be the one. So far, each “correct” solving of the poem has not led me to Indulgence, but rather, has led me to a NEW Blaze, and a NEW trip through the poem. How many trips will it take to find Indulgence? I have no idea, but because of hard facts – the hard fact of finding a new blaze each time I have correctly solved a “trip” through the poem, I am convinced that I am on the correct path.
      I have had several disappointments, but in the end, I have been amazed at Forrest! What a puzzle he has constructed! What an amazing journey. What an amazing “Thrill of the chase”.
      No, it will NOT be done on a week-end or even over a summer break. It has taken me two years, and 16 trips so far, and I can see at least two or three more trips, but I am confident that I AM on the right path.
      Good luck to all searchers – Armchair and BotG searchers alike. Think HARD this winter, just as I am doing, and one of us is sure to succeed in the end. – YES, I KNOW I am CRAZY, (but it keeps me from going insane – JDA

      • JDA, I don’t think you’re crazy at all! I’m also not sure it really does “fly in the face” of FF’s comments, given that he really seems to expect us to engage in multiple searches.

        For me, I’ve discovered I’m not smart enough to figure it all out beforehand. I used to think I had the hiding spot prefigured before a trip, but I was invariably wrong. But at least, like you, I’ve been able to find a path that, although much, much longer than anticipated, provides enough confirmation to keep going.

      • JDA,
        In the key word thread you asked me to read this…
        My response is going to be from two other searcher, but I think it fit.
        ~The poem was designed for failure [ at first ]~.
        The motive to get folks outside and exploring, and the poem as done it’s job well.
        ~ In the end the poem will be elegant and understood ~.
        The challenge was not intended for folks to simply get outside and enjoy the sunshine… the “challenge” was of imagination and thinking and matching wit.

        I don’t understand how you and some others say things like ~ Are multiple BotG trips necessary? Absolutely. Or Multiple “trips” through the poem are required in order to find Indulgence.
        When you even admit they contradict fenn’s comments…
        You believed and fought about the chest being in water and made the almost the same statements that.
        You have multiple blazes when one blaze [ not plural ] is mentioned in the poem.

        You said; ‘but because of hard facts – the hard fact of finding a new blaze each time I have correctly solved a “trip” through the poem, I am convinced that I am on the correct path.’
        What facts…?
        You also said; This new blaze was “man made”. Undeniable – It gave me a direction to follow next. I followed it, and I then found Blaze #4 – It too was “man made”

        LOL… others may say, great job, good thinking, I agree… But for me and I’m just being as straightforward and as logical in thinking as I can… You’re doing everything fenn seems to be saying not to do.
        Undeniable facts: from ff
        ~ Certainty of the path, the location, beforehand.
        ~ Blaze… not Blazes
        ~ the chest is not associated with a structure [ I’ll give ya this one because I don’t know exactly what you blazes are ]. But “man made” is sending up red flags.
        ~ In part, quote “…looking for a blaze, because that’s one of the clues, but you can’t start in the middle of the poem and find the treasure,…” { while this talks about *the blaze* [ *a* clue ] being in the middle of the poem, you seem to have a blaze in every step of the poem.

        LOL you can believe whatever ya want that gets your motor running… I guess I’m more dumbfounded at some of the others responding… good thinking. IF ya want to twist fenn’s comment
        [ that seems to attempt to help us to not go off on wild goose chases.] OK.
        I just don’t understand how a talented artist, a guy that seems to have working intelligence, someone who has been through life for as many decades as you… simply ignore the guy who presented the challenge and gave us food for thought in so many ATF related to the challenge ].

        This reminds me if the guy who asked about answers vs. answer differences in the poem vs. the Santa Fe trading site… fenn’s answer was; one is a typo. So this guy who asked the question then claimed the typo had to be in the poem, because it fit “his” solve.

        Do you think fenn made any typos in the poem?
        I’m not downing you.. but you may take it that I am. LOL because as you said; Ego. and sometimes ego doesn’t listen to our other friend common sense.

        I’m only commenting, so others [ especially new folks to the chase ] read this and attempt to logically understand “your perspective” vs. “my perspective” and hope they come up with a better perspective than ours… and match it to fenn’s perspective.

        • Thanks for the comments Seeker. You have valid points. All I can do is keep listening to what I THINK the poem is saying, and hope for the best. If I never find Indulgence, so be it. I have had one heck of a good time trying. a FENN-atic – JDA

          • JDA – I am assuming that you interpret blaze as meaning something along the lines of “a series of independent things that, once combined, make up a single pointer to Indulgence” and I can appreciate that possible definition.

            Such would seemingly satisfy the ATF comment:
            Q1: “How far is the chest located from the blaze?” / A1: “…If you find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious.” (Your trail of blazes are seemingly leading/directing you to further refinement of the spot where Indulgence is hidden).

            Conversely, it would seemingly be at odds with these ATF comments:
            Q2: “Is the blaze a single object?” / A2: “In a word – Yes.” (You stated that the first 2 you have ID’d are geologic/natural, and the successive ones were man-made. I concede that if you use the definition I stated above, it would take all of the separate blazes combined to get you confidently going to where Indulgence is hidden, making the Blaze a conglomerate singular object.)
            Q3: “Which direction does the Blaze face? North, South, East, or West?” / A3: “I didn’t take a radial of of the blaze Foxy. I’m thinking it may not be any of those directions.” (Increasing the number of blazes would seemingly increase the chances that one of them is facing N-S-E-W, especially one of the two geologic/natural ones?)

            I’m not entirely sold on your approach, but I am not BOTG and privy to your blazes either, so all I can do is thank you for contributing and wish you luck in your endeavors.

          • Thanks Bowmarc, and the best to you in your searches also. None of my blazes have pointed in an “absolute” N,S,E or W direction – one or two close, but none pointing directly at a N,S,E or W direction.
            – JDA

        • Seeker, JDA
          I like to remember those early concepts…like the ones from the “Architecture…” thread.
          I always notice when someone uses these other two from the “Wolf” and “Goofy”. Simple but so realistic in terms of logical…

          • You mention concepts of earlier times, Ken. You’ve been around long enough to know the [ what I call ] headbutting debates that even continue with others today, many think some are being “rude”, or “overbearing” and or even “insulting” attacking an other.

            Like I said to JDA, I comment on post like his with an argumentative approach using fenn’s ATF comments to present arguments for or against what is being posted by others. Not to agree or disagree as much as seeing if anything that seems stated that contradict what an AFT might mean to me.

            I think the ATF are important… not as clue or hints… but to try an attempt to see them as truthfully stated by fenn… even when we think that contradict each other at time.

            Example [ and you know this as well as anyone ] how two clues can be “deciphered / solve” and searchers [ all of the ones that relayed this information to fenn, not just some ] didn’t know they solved the clues or even the first 4 [ almost 1/2 ] clues.

            Then we have comments like certainty of the path and location before hand, and not know you solve the first clue until the chest is found and, need to nail down the first clue or “stay home” or if you know hoB why be concern about wwwh. etc etc etc etc etc.
            In my mind, any searcher not attempting to see how all theses ATF comments are to be truthful to each other, is going to make things up to force them to work in an particular searcher’s favorite location… That’s target fixated 101 in my book.

            LOL My favorite location went up in smokes after Utah and Idaho got kicked. But I’m no going to keep trying to make it work or twist fenn’s other comments because I like the area because “IT has to be, it fits everything, and I’m positive I know, I just have to keep diligent to MY mind and blah blah blah.
            The complain later about how much money and and time I put in.

            Oh right, Wolf and Goofy.. LOL two guys who couldn’t, wouldn’t, and sure the heck shouldn’t ever agree with each other… one having a kitchen sink idea solve, the other a down to earth be there solution, idea. While they didn’t agree… they gave me food for thought. Even if they didn’t know they did.
            LOL I’m not talking about what they whispered … those guys and others [ self included ] don’t know how to whisper… we’re not loud, just louder than most.

            Sorry.. I’m a bit off topic… Please excuse me while I bring fenn back his soap box I borrowed.

          • Yes to what you said…The ATF are gifts from Fenn to keep on track…not wander off into oblivion trying to make an idea fit. One of the hardest notions with anything is to admit not being right or misguided by unsound reasoning.
            I go back to the earlier threads to keep those early mistakes fresh so as to not wander too far off. I used to make it a point to comment on the “fictitious” facts…not for kicks but to keep it real for the newcomer or day tripper that stumbled in here. Too much thin skin these days.
            It was good to see colokid stop in recently and stir things up with point blank reasoning vs. no follow up that had any gas.
            Back to my theories and I do appreciate the direct reality…

      • JDA,

        I will have to agree with Seeker there. When you use words like *undeniably* and *absolutely* or that the -facts- sent you through the {right} path and this have shown you multiple blazes sounds more like you want this place to work for you. You also said ‘so far each correct solving of the poem has not led me to Indulgence’.

        If you can’t find the treasure go back to the beginning or the first clue…

        I think he meant go back and find out if you have the right understanding because if we have the wrong first clue nailed down we will never find it no matter if it is 16 trips or 100. Don’t you agree?

        • No OZ10, I do not agree. I used “Undeniable” because it was obvious that what I found had been put there by man. Nature could not of created what I saw – It was “Undeniable (to me at least) that what I was seeing was something that Forrest had created, and sent me to.

          “Absolutely” = the same as above.

          No, the LAST thing I want is to have “correct” solve after “correct” solve, and NOT have Indulgence. Why “correct” solve, because of what I find after “Looking down.” – when I am “supposed” to be seeing Indulgence.

          If I “Looked down” and found nothing, I would know that it was NOT a “correct” solve. The fact that I found “Something” at that point says I had a “correct” solve up to that point – or so I believe.

          “If you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue.” f is Forrest’s advice.

          I think he meant go back and find out if you have the right understanding because if we have the wrong first clue nailed down we will never find it no matter if it is 16 trips or 100. Don’t you agree?

          If I had the wrong first clue, would I be finding the things that I am finding? Don’t think so.

          Thanks for your input though – JDA

          • JDA, I’m attempting to follow you and yes I get that you don’t want to say what you have found. So What I’m hearing is you followed the 9 clues to A blaze and found notta. So from that blaze you’re starting over with the first clue – wwwh- and find 9 clues and another blaze. Still not finding the chest and from that second blaze, you’re starting at yet a different first clue – still being wwwh – through 8 more clues to yet another Blaze… with all the blaze[s] being made by fenn. { I can only assume your blaze[s] are cravings in stone or similar and of the same design }…
            Am I following you correctly?


            Are you saying you start at wwwh… go through 8 clues and found the A blaze, Went back to the same wwwh, through 8 different clues and found A blaze that is the same as the first one you found… but still no chest and then go back to the same wwwh, different, clues to yet a third blaze that is the same as the other two etc. etc.?

            I have read many pf your post and I still don’t understand which approach your doing… or even if I have those two thought out right.

          • JDA,

            “Undeniable (to me at least) that what I was seeing was something that Forrest had created, and sent me to.

            Alrighty then, as long as you keep it real. Stay safe.

          • Seeker – Blazes #1 and #2 were not made by Forrest. These two are natural geologic formations or things. All later blazes are “Forrest” or man-made JMO JDA

          • JDA ~ ‘Seeker – Your first postulate or proposal is the correct one. JDA’

            OK. This is not a unique approach. Some like the idea that the poem tells of different adventures [ for lack of a better term ] where you solve one adventure and leads to another… at the end of 9 specific adventures you found the chest… a kinda… walking in fenn’ shoe throughout his life. { but those idea were combined into one full 9 steps to the chest solve}

            So you must have thought of the only possibility / conclusion to your ‘blazes’ is, that there must be at least eight, maybe nine altogether, right? Even three or four would be a stretch for me… but lets go with what you have… In the end what would hapen is the chest is not found??? Which wwwh do you start back at???
            The possibilities of wrong clue references, wrong turns, wrong blaze[s]-[ seeing there are many, there must be others right?] IMO the the path would not “be direct” or even difficult… it would be vertically impossible without years, decades, maybe even 100 years, and few couple of generations of searchers exploring to get it just right / correct.

            You said one time you have 16 miles from start to finish… just adding 1/3 of the miles with many solves and blazes [ lets say 9 each ] that over 90 miles of traveling total for each blazing correct solve.

            I mean, how long can the out of work Texan keep the kiddies out of school and pay the mortgage and property without going bankrupt in the mean time?
            I’m curious… does anyone at all in your team raise any concerns or questions about this method?

          • Seeker;

            Your logic is good, but a tiny bit flawed with what I find on the ground. You say:
            “You said one time you have 16 miles from start to finish… just adding 1/3 of the miles with many solves and blazes [ lets say 9 each ] that over 90 miles of traveling total for each blazing correct solve. ”
            Let’s say I have about 16 miles from wwwh to my END location, or my “No paddle location. This NEVER changes. I drive from wwwh to where I park. I get out of my vehicle, and walk – at the very most 4 miles – most of the time I walk only between 1 and 1.5 miles. Two at the very most.

            From parking spot – Blaze #1 is only a few hundred feet.
            From parking spot – Blaze #2 is about 1 mile.
            From parking spot – Blaze #3 is about 1 mile
            From parking spot – Blaze #4 is about 4 miles
            From parking spot – Blaze #5 is about 1.5 miles I think..
            My search area will now be about 1.5 miles from Parking spot until I find Indulgence – I am fairly certain.

            How many total blazes? Not sure, but suspect 9

            How many more to go? I need to confirm one blaze, and then search for the remaining blazes. I suspect that I will find 4 of the blazes in one location.
            One will be natural, two will be man-made, and the last one is “special”

            I guess that only time will tell if I am completely crazy or not.

            I do expect that confirming the one blaze will be the most challenging. Once I find it though, finding the last four will be a LOT easier – I hope. JDA

          • LOL JDA,
            I’m not being a hard ___. But you have so far, you walk out four miles to blaze number four and now walking back towards the car. That’s at least 8 miles round trip once. 16 miles total IF the other blazes are on the return trip as well.

            16 miles x a 2 miles per hour walking. is 8 hours. How long is one afternoon in this area.. Alaska come time mind, but that’s not in a search state.
            The other thought would be why fenn would need to “follow” the clues if the last blaze is closer to where he or you park?
            If fenn followed the clues to the hide the first time… wouldn’t he had to have done the same for the second trip as well… now we’re stomping 32 miles and done in 16 hours.

            Is my math right?
            None of this give you a second thought to what fenn as stated and the poem itself?
            Fenn did warn us if we can’t walk several hours to our solve, twice, then don’t go… imo that would be pushing the 8 hour window, nevertheless 16 hours.
            I mean one afternoon is basically noon to evening or approx 6 hours. even using these numbers, the one trip would have needed to be done in 3 hours up and back at the most [ to stay with in reasoning of the comment ] That’s 1.5 hours one way from car to hide… sure, that is nothing more than an educated guess… but much more reasonable for the time span fenn gave… two trip, from his car, done in one afternoon, walked less than a few miles.
            I think my calculations fall within fenn’s comments… IF… fenn meant total time and distance.
            Which seems to be in line with fenn saying… do go where an 80 yr old can’t with a heavy backpack, twice, compared to 16 hours total for your two trips. He would have had to start at 5am to finish by 8pm, walking most of that time, right? [ I’m not even counting rest stops or eating or time spent at the hide ].

            As far as the “things” you find… ever searcher “find” things… Vox is great at finding things, we have pictures from all over four states of folks finding things… I would really love to know what your blaze[s] look like that has you riled up.
            Seriously don’t you have a picture of it somewhere you can show us…

          • Seeker;

            Again, I am sorry, I have not made myself very clear.

            One of the blazes is 4 miles from the parking spot. It took Forrest 15 years to construct the poem and puzzle.

            Forrest could have hiked up to this one spot when he was 70 – not 79 or 80.
            Put his mark on something and left. Who knows, he could have even camped over night, and then enjoyed a day fishing near my Blaze spot – or at least watched the wildlife.

            I suspect that the final 4 blazes will be between 1.5 miles, and 2 miles from the parking spot.
            I just looked it up, and the average person walks 3.1 MPH. Let’s subtract a bit for being in the mountains, and subtract a bit for age, and settle on 2MPH as Forrest’s average speed.

            If he has to travel 2 miles at 2 MPH even I (Who hates numbers) can figure that out – 1 hour – one way.
            1 hrs up and maybe 1 hrs back – twice = 4 hrs total in probably July, August or Sept. Plenty of daylight to get the job done.- even if he had to so something “special” at the hidey hole – Don’t you think?

            And as I said, it MAY not be 2 miles – It MAY be only 1.5 – 1.75 miles – the time is even shorter.

            I will not know until the end I guess, but it certainly seems do-able to me – What say you Seeker? JDA

          • Sure if he walked 4 miles round trip… but that’s not how you explained your theory…
            fenn said he followed the clues, I would assume it would be the same way as you stated your theory works. The only thing we don’t know is… did he mean a few miles one way or both trips combined.
            I think by your last comment you agree that fenn made two trips, in one afternoon, from his car, walked less then as few miles, and he followed all the clues.. in total. If that is accurate… your theory doesn’t match the time line or distance.
            Not with searching out, more than one wwh, canyon down, hob, meek’s place water high etc. and 9 blazes with 9 solves.
            If your saying he didn’t follow all the clues… what would be the point of him saying he “followed the clue when he hide the chest”? IF he only followed ‘some’ of the clues, that would be an out right lie in anyone’s book. I just don’t see him doing that. whether the poem was complete or completed? We are told we need to follow 9 clues… and you have many more when you re start so many times.
            The math doesn’t add up.

          • Hi JDA – Do you remember f’s answer to Kristie the desk person about long distances? If you do then why are you walking long distances? If not go to Jenny’s site and read the q. & a.. My personal opinion is that you attribute an excess of distance that Forrest would have traveled when it may not be so.

            And some questions about the special place. You have been very clear that you search an area not anywhere close to Yellowstone. Why do you search in an area that is not in an area that he loves based on what he told us in TTOTC? If Forrest was playing tricks, and he has made it clear that he doesn’t, then why go against what he has provided? I think Forrest deserves some credit for steering people to the area where the special spot is located and not away from it.

          • Hi HMA.

            IMO – if I hid a treasure….I wouldn’t steer anyone towards the location….at all.

            Especially, if I wanted it to last a 100 yrs or more.

            The location, to me would not be of the “ordinary”, but of a secret place, as he stated.

            I.E. tell me if you can figure out my secret place I would runaway to…in my mind….

            It is a place I went to as a kid and loved to play Tarzan while there. I now know many people have been to my secret place, but may not have enjoyed it as much as I did.

            That is all you get. Sound familiar? Sure it does….it is an echo of what FF has stated.

            Now………sit back….and then put your mind to work…….think, visualize, observe, read, listen and try to understand what I wrote.

            What exactly would you require to determine “my secret” – or as FF stated “I can keep my secret where”….use imagination…and visualize a question mark at the end of the phrase….and him asking YOU the question.

            IMO – FF gives us a hints…in TTOTC…..vague as they are….but there none the less. They do NOT give a precise location, but hints are there to lead you to a starting point.

            That is the game you need to play if you even want to see if you can win.

            Remote viewing is viable, if you know how to expand your senses…..a nudge to all those naysayers out there….*winks*…

            “Practice does make petfect” as stated in reference to that old adage.

            Cheers and good luck to you.

          • Darn Seeker how can I make it clearer?

            Solve #1 took me from wwwh – canyon – hob etc to an END – a parking spot. I walked a few hundred feet (I had already seen my blaze driving up to the parking spot) searched where I thought Indulgence should be – It was not there – walked back to my car and drove home.

            Solve #2 – I drive to my same parking spot. I get out of my vehicle – I start at the place I ended solve #1 – found a NEW wwwh – a New canyon etc Hiked 1 mile up a canyon – Found a NEW blaze (#2) – looked down, no Indulgence.
            Solve #3 – Drive to same parking spot – Hike one mile up the canyon – Find a NEW wwwh (#3) – NEW canyon – etc. Had to hike less than 1/2 mile to new blaze from where I started after hiking 1 mile up canyon.
            Solve #4 – Hiked 3/4 of a mile up canyon, hiked 1/4 mile in different direction to last found blaze – #3 Hiked 3 miles up a different canyon – Did not find Blaze #4, but know approximate area it should be – ran out of time to search. Further research told me what I would have found, IF I had found it. We MAY go back and search this area again – BUT, I am pretty confident what this blaze would look like and I feel confident I know what information it would have imparted had we found it, so we MAY not make the long walk back to this blaze site.
            Solve #5 – Will drive to same parking spot – Hike 1/2 mile to new trail I have found. Hike 1 mile to a new location. Hike about 1/4 mile to where I think Blaze #5 will be.

            This blaze will give me information needed to hike to where Indulgence is hidden – either on this trip, or the next.
            (Probably on same trip since new distance to hike I expect to be quite small – less than 1/4 mile)

            Make sense now Seeker? Five, six or seven DIFFERENT solves, all centered around one geographic area. Each solve has nine clues – Each time, the clues have led me to a specific NEW blaze, and so far, when I look down, No Indulgence BUT each new blaze has “Directed” me to a new site, where I have found a new blaze etc.

            I have completed 4 solves. On paper, and in my head, I have “solved” – Solve #5. AND Solve #6. I need to put BotG to prove solve #5. I THINK I know about where Blaze #5 will take me, but it will take BotG to find out for sure.

            Solve #6 SHOULD take me to where the last four blazes are, and where Indulgence is secreted.

            If you don’t get it this time, I will quit trying to make it any clearer. I have divulged about as much as I can without drawing you a map of my search area. Good Night Seeker – JDA

          • Hey JDA.

            I disagree that there are multiple legs to the map.

            in my research, there is one path with one blaze….although, I do believe the main blaze – trail/blaze – is made up of multiple markers on that trail….to keep the seeker on the right path.

          • so JDA… Is it now your opinion that ff made the blaze he put in the poem for us to solve? Just curious

    • Hi Voxpops,
      I would like to add my thoughts to your observations, if I may.
      1. At least in my solution there is almost 0% chnce to solve the second part of the poem with no BOTG. In my opinion this part of the poem has multiple solutions (all logical) and the only way to proceed is by elimination.
      2. In my solution the distance from wwwh to the fnal clue is in excess of 20 miles. It actually might be more than 30 miles (my solution of the second part of the poem is not finished yet). The 20 or 30 miles distance is if you follow the clues. It is less as crow flies.
      3. I do not use coordinates, but I do have method to follow the clues precisely. This applies to the second part of the poem only. The frst part of the poem in my opinion is discriptive and does not require precision.
      4. In my opinion the second part of the poem has multiple, equally logical paths that have to be eliminated by BOTG. At the moment l estimate at least 10 BOTG searches.
      5. See above.
      6. When Mr Fenn hid the treasure, Google Earth was a very crude tool, but you still could do a lot of measurements and bearings using it. Today’s GE has so many 3d features that with a bit of imagination you can skip many of the BOTG trips that would be required 7 years ago and this is also why I think I can get pass second clue with no trip to the Rockies.

      • LIG, I agree with your first point 100%.

        I’d be interested to get an idea of the way you deal with precision, as long as it doesn’t reveal too much.

        Your point 4 is intriguing. I have found only a single, but very difficult and tortuous path. Theoretically, you could take an alternative route, but my reading of the poem limits my on the ground movement.

        I agree that you can get past the second clue before requiring BOTG (although, very late in my search, I did go to visit those places). I doubt you can get more than halfway without BOTG, but you never know.

    • Mr. Vox-

      I agree, someone (probably Mr. F) has messed with the google earth images in my search area. I just couldn’t believe it and wondered how it was possible. Then I found out that if you are the owner of the property, the people at google maps will allow you to obscure out what you don’t want others to see.

      Very close to what I considered the blaze, the deputy and I found a white spanish X on google earth. Next to it is a silver star and a shadow that looks similar to the shadow in TFTW.

      It took three different BOTG trips to that location to confirm that the markings were not real but virtual. I just couldn’t believe someone could be that crafty.

      The white Spanish X was “drawn” by shading or filling in an area that should have had full sunlight, with black, leaving only the uncolored area in the distinct shape of a Spanish X. The silver star was crafted in a similar way.

      Nearby there appears, on close examination to be the word “Peggy” but I am less sure of that.

      I just couldn’t believe it. But yes it is true, someone has messed with google earth. IMO

      Best regards;

      Sherif Billy

    • Vox,
      You said: :”We have been told that GE is a good resource. Why specifically GE?”

      Actually what he said was “GE and/or a good map.” This has considerably different implications. ‘And/or’ is a logical operator that means you can use both together (GE and Map) or either one interchangeably (GE or Map). If GE and the ‘good map’ are interchangeable, than anything you do with one, you should be able to get out of the other.

      If he intended that you over-magnify a GE image and find hidden pictures in the pixels, you should be able to do the same on a regular map right? How would you go about that?

      I would also add that the pixel pattern you see is dependent on the resolution of the original image. If you looked at a higher or lower resolution image your pixel patterns would be hugely different. There’s no guarantee that every individual would be getting the same resolution image (if they do use other maps or digital map substitutes). The way he worded that any ‘good map’ should do…right…not format specific?

      I don’t think Fenn is advocating GE as much as extending a variety of options for people who might not have access to a good paper map.

    • I’m still in the “It’s pretty close to where you start” corner. F. said searchers had figured out the first 2 clues then went right past the treasure.

      He also said searchers had been within 200 feet of the treasure.

      1. Begin it wwwh And take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.
      2. Put in below the HoB

      In my opinion, you’re close by the time you get to the waypoint below the HoB.

  3. Some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing they had been so close… Some of the searchers have been within 500 feet I know*******
    This quote by FF tells me the treasure is is right next to WWWH. I could be wrong, but how can you mention the first 2 clues and he knows your within 500ft

    • Vikesrule. For me, without the certainty of knowing the distance between clues 1-9 , it’s hard to know how many different locations within the clues there may be. He had said ( paraphrasing) that if I knew where WWWH is, then I am half way there , figuratively speaking. So, is this meaning a half way there imaginitive wise, or practical , physically wise?

      “If you’ ve been wise and found the blaze ”

      So, I am thinking that the treasure would be closer to another clue, other than WWWH. IMO .

      The folks walked right by the next clues, mentioned by him as by a distance. Contiguous can really be attached infinitely,not limited to a distance. It may not be far to imagine distance, but further it can be,in practice. IMO .

      • Yes I agree closer to another clue I agree what I meant was if they mentioned where their wwwh is and they went by the next clues I’m thinking that it’s not miles away it’s close to wwwh

        • Vikesrule;

          Sorry, I very much disagree, and here is why.

          “…wwwh” – a place
          “And take it in the canyon down,” – in order to be a canyon, it has to have length of some kind – 100′ – 1 mile – ten miles. Doesn’t it? so, how far?
          Answer – “Not far, but too far to walk.” How far can you walk? I would guess at least five miles, probably double that, or even triple that – 5, 10 or even 15 miles,

          “Put in below the hob (another bit of distance.

          “From there, it’s no place for the meek”
          “From there (The hoB place) to another place (The no meek place) – so some more distance. How far? Who knows.

          “The end is EVER drawing nigh” = This implies travel of some sort, over some distance doesn’t it?

          “There’ll be no paddle up your creek, Just heavy loads and water high” three more implied places. Each “place” has to take up a certain amount of space – or distance.

          “People have been within 500′ ” (of the treasure) – where were they when they were within 500′? Since we have agreed (I hope ) that all of the places I mentioned will take up “some” amount of space, and will require “some” distance to travel to get to – No, I can not agree with your statement that: “This quote by FF tells me the treasure is is right next to WWWH.” Can you explain your logic in coming to such a conclusion? I tried my best to explain why I can not agree with you. JDA

          • JDA, Vikesrule could just be describing a spiral pattern where wwwh starts on the outside and the tc is pretty far away with the path you take but somewhat close to wwwh as the crow flies.

          • JDA, The logic is that FF has said that people have correctly identified the first two clues then just went right on by the next ones but yet still says that people have been within 500′ so I guess it’s just confusing! Trust me I have many other theories I have some where u have to travel as well but just can’t figure out for the life of me if people have found the first 2 clues and went right on by the next but yet have been so close and didn’t know it then I’m lost

          • IMO – people read the words “within 200/500 ft.” inaccurately.


            Let’s say the TC is hid near the Madison River.

            If anyone has every been to the Madison River, they will notice that he river can be pretty close to the road at different areas…some within 50 ft of the road….others…no feet from the road.

            As one can see, if I pass the TC while driving down the road, I have met the quote 28th all regard…..I am within 200/500 ft of the treasure….and never new it was there.

            Simple…straightforward….and logical.

            Fits all of the parameters of the AFT comments also.

            People read way too much into the words….and thus…still refuse to “keep it simple”.

            That is why the chest has not been found yet.


            Good luck to all.

        • Vikesrule. So, are you saying that you think all the clue locations are very close in distance to each other? Like, in the same area?

          • To me, the begin it wwwh clue ( first clue) is the one clue that creates a bit of fog. No matter how many times and years I have driven the same road home, I always drive much slower in the fog, always combining my known perceptions to figure out exactly where I am. Perceptions of time and distance changes when being in the thickness of fog. WWWH is the figurative fog , not literal fog. IMO . WWWH was my last clue to ( I think I did anyways) figure out. I found that the other clues were essential to pointing to WWWH. IMO .

          • Alsentenash: very interesting that you solved the other clues before solving warm waters. Were you able to place the other clues on a map before you solved warm waters, or did knowing what the other clues meant as a group give you a general location in which to search for warm waters? Just trying to understand the process if you don’t mind elaborating.

          • Tom B. I don’t think I would say I have solved anything lol. Through trial and trying, it wasn’t untill the last clues I became confident about what could be WWWH. Being confident with my area , I visualized ,via imagination, from here where and what would be the wwwh? Expanding out from this location , like a sonar, investigating as to what wwwh could be from here. This eliminates the need to shrink a large part of the map. Instead, I expand from the area; it’s the simplest way to expediate the location of the other clues to this spot . At the end, I know where I started kind of approach. There was only 1 clue that made it all work. Anyways, that’s how my mind works with this. My thoughts still need to be tested BOTG . Just confident ,is all one can have. IMO .

          • Hey Alsetenash,
            Yes it is one theory of mine that the clues are very close to each other, but I have many other theories that they are not!

          • Covert one,
            There is a quote from Forrest that says you can leave your friends in the car while you go grab it so I think they are very close to each other

          • Vikesrule – it seems your logic and deductions are different than mine. Good luck and stay safe in the search.

      • Alsetenash

        It’s hard to tell what exactly F. meant by that statement “If you knew wwwh you’re half way there”.

        I mean, I’m in Virginia, so half way there is quite long ways for me.

        The only way that statement of his makes sense is if wwwh is below the HoB, which makes wwwh the put in point and the HoB is only a reference point to get you to wwwh, which would, technically, make the HoB the first clue.

        • His statement can make sense if one attempts to figure out why it made sense to him, figuratively speaking. Imagine an island being a half hour boat ride off the coast of a main land. The Island representing WWWH. The main land represents the main area of the chest location. Only 2 locations. You realize you just need to get to the mainland , where the chest is, from the island- you’re half way there now, figuratively speaking. Half of 2 locations. IMO .

          • I think I heard a wise person once say
            *”knowing is half the battle”

            Or maybe that was a public service announcement….

          • A searcher could certainly be forgiven for considering the possibility that the chest is on an island. After all, on the page right after the poem in TTOTC Forrest mentions dreaming he was reincarnated as Capt. Kidd and went to Gardiner’s Island looking for the treasure. Then there is the MW Featured Question on 4/12/2016: “My wife would probably suggest that Justin Bieber play my character, but I would think Wallace Berry would be more appropriate. f” – note the misspelling of Wallace Beery. Beery played Long John Silver in the movie Treasure Island. Also, in Forrest Gets Mail #15, there is a color cartoon of a searcher in a boat up a creek without his paddle. In the text of the email it says, “Go ahead and let Dal post it if you want but first why don’t you put an X on the map so everyone will know where the treasure is hidden.” There is a rock in the middle of the creek with an “X” on it.

            Certainly if the treasure ~is~ on an island, it would explain why Forrest could say “Nobody is going to accidentally stumble on that treasure chest.”

          • Well sure it can be found evidently in some of the things he has said. A large rock topped with trees and vegetation ,in the center of a creek surrounded by water , can look like an island to a person or an ant. Lol. As long as it is safe and no special equipment need to get to it- it’s possible . IMO.

            Do you see an island influence in he poem?

          • Hi Alsetenash: “Do you see an island influence in (t)he poem?” I could argue that certain lines could point to the possibility: “There’ll be no paddle up your creek, Just heavy loads and water high.” If you’re fording a creek to get to an island, you’re not paddling up it, and you could experience some “water high” while carrying your heavy loads. Also “Your effort will be worth the cold” could point to a water-crossing necessity. If “worth the cold” refers to a physical, personal experience, then about the only way to guarantee you’ll experience “cold” in the Rockies in all seasons is to be forced to enter water.

            But do I think the treasure chest is on an island? Nope. I think the wheelchair quote from Forrest all but eliminates water crossings from reasonable consideration (even though I did once favor island solutions).

          • Zap. I also entertained the Island idea ,as being a large rock in the middle of a low level stream . But same as you, some quotes eliminated the idea. Good eye, you noticed my missing ‘T’ . Lol.

          • SB-167

            “FF: Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking.”

          • Alsetenash – OK, I know FF said, “metaphorically speaking, but here are the distance specs for my WWWH in relation to my put in below the hoB at Cabin Creek Trailhead:

            West Entrance YNP to WWWH at Madison Junction = 14 miles.

            West Entrance YNP to Cabin Creek Trailhead, via Hebgen Dam = 28 miles.

            I know where my Where Warm Waters Halt is, and it is halfway there to my hoB. That’s 14/28 miles. I have yet to set foot in YNP, which requires an even higher fee this coming year. And I don’t like traffic and crowds. Like Forrest, I prefer to be at least 20 miles away.

            I don’t need to go there to Madison Junction. I can go straight to the home of Brown, because I know where my WWWH is. What did Forrest say about that again?

          • Lisa. Saying ‘metaphorically speaking’ doesn’t eliminate literal physical distance either. IMO . To me , this means both. Meaning, half way there in the poem ( speaking) and could possibly be also mean for BOTG . IMO . He just spoke of one method. I think he speaks in three method forms at any given time -Physical, mental and spiritual sense. He could be speaking in any one of those methods in any answer, just as there are many meanings of words. It could be said as -by the method leans to the meaning. Perhaps this is can create some head scratching when lining up applicable quotes when a similar topic is addressed in questions and answers. IMO .

            Your ideas are very much applicable . IMO .

          • Alsetenash – Here’s that quote. And my ‘IT’ in this case, and in the Poem, is the Madison River, which begins at Madison Junction, and intersects with my below the home of Brown. That 14 miles is Too Far to Walk, and they even charge to ride a bike into YNP from the West Entrance.

            <>” — The Thrill Resource Page/Old Santa Fe Trading Co; HDNet Story by Jennifer London/10:35 mark.

            At about 10:47 she asks, “Who’s Brown”……FF replies, “if I told you that you’d go right to the chest”!

          • Punctuation problem:

            “You just can’t get out of your car and walk over into the woods and walk to it.” — The Thrill Resource Page/Old Santa Fe Trading Co; HDNet Story by Jennifer London/10:35 mark.

            At about 10:47 she asks, “Who’s Brown”……FF replies, “if I told you that you’d go right to the chest”!

          • I am going out on a limb here. I think what Mr Fenn meant about being more than halfway to the treasure refers to the longitude. Think about it. Latitude is 2 digits, longitude is 3 digits. If you know the longitude then you are hypothetically over half way to knowing the location. Of course this theory does not work if you think that WWWH is the first clue. I do realise that there are 6 or 7 more digits involved in the longitude and latitude, but you still end up with more numbers in longitude whichever system you use. All IMHO.

          • (Metaphorically speaking is a turn of phrase that means that what has been said has not to be taken literally.)

            So you’re not 1/2 way there.

          • Metaphorically speaking doesn’t mean what has been said is not to be taken seriously; it’s a declaration by the speaker that they are speaking in metaphor(which is redundant, because most people recognize when you’re speaking in metaphor anyways, whether they know what metaphors are or not).

            The story of The Fox and the Grapes is a metaphor that describes the ego’s defense mechanism of denial(how people shrug things off by blaming it on something else).

            The fox couldn’t reach the grapes, so rather than admitting that he had failed he shrugged it off, by saying “Oh well those grapes were probably sour anyways”.

            Or how about “My solve was correct, but someone else beat me to it”.

    • Mr. Vikes-


      He knows because people email him their hunt adventures. You see, IMO, Mr. F hid it near a place people frequently visit. You see, if your WWH a ways away, but then you get stuck and give up on the hunt, but then decide to go visit that other spot that tourists go since it’s relatively close nearby, you might pass within 500′ of indulgence.

      Then when you go home you email Mr. F you didn’t find it but you had a great time and (lets say) send him a picture of you on the South rim of the Grand Canyon. Then IF HE HID IT on the South rim of the Grand Canyon, he would know you were within 500′ but didn’t have a clue. IMO

      Just my opinion


  4. Odd and even ever persist
    In company of another to exist
    Save for one an infinity are prime
    Yet only one keeps secrets in rhyme
    Chase well…Stay safe…

  5. Subscribe. Thanks Dal.

    Carry-over from previous entries…..

    Franklin wrote:

    “But so far I have not read anyone on this blog state what they think it might be.”

    …and they probably won’t. I know I won’t.

    IMO – it is too critical of a clue.

    Good luck.

  6. Vox,
    I believe Forrest wanted the one who finds the treasure to love the place as much as he did. Multiple BOTG would be just one way to get to know the area where the treasure is hidden. There are things you cannot see on GE, including an eye that appears on the top of a geological feature at certain times of the day from a certain angle. Looking down with GE has exposed a few other things that I also believe to be mentioned in the poem. I think Forrest said “imagination is key” in one of the scrapbooks. I have found a word in the poem by using my imagination and GE, zoomed in (tight focus), that is key to solving the poem (IMO). I wouldn’t have found that numbers in the poem can be used to calculate distances, headings and even elevations without studying the poem. I have had quite a few points connect up and lead to notable features on the ground. All of this is just my opinion, but it comes from over 46 BOTG, hundreds of hours spent with the poem and GE.


    • WOW welderon – 46 BotG – I am impressed. I would guess that you live in one of the four states, or fairly close by. Perseverance just might be the key – or at least I hope so. Try to STAY SAFE (you obviously have) – JDA

      • Hi JDA,
        I’m only about a four hour drive to my search area. It makes for a long one, but I can search and get home in a day. My wife says it’s over 50 trips now with over 300 miles hiked according to the GPS.

        • I am about one hour more away from my spot. usually drive there, spend the night, search next day and then drive home, or stay one more night. At 75, it takes a lot out of me, Darn! – JDA

          • JDA,
            I hope that when I’m 75 I still dream dreams and act on them like you, but my love of extreme sports may have already limited my future abilities.

            Keep on going!

          • Even with a bunged up body, one can still dream dreams, and find relatives or friends that can help you fulfill them.
            (I have a bad heart, but compensate with an oxygen concentrator and going a bit at a time, sit, rest, go a short distance again.
            I go with my search team as far as I can go, and then take a break, and let them complete the given task, and we all go down the mountain together knowing that we each have contributed what we could.

            Keep dreamin’ – Keep a-lookin’ – JDA

        • Good to hear you’re using GPS, welderon – it makes so much sense in every respect.

          I agree about what can be extracted from the poem with perseverance. It’s all in the application of those numbers that will make the difference, IMO.

  7. I’m curious what others think are the most important things to have to get to the correct solve…not to be mistaken for a “method”, it’s simply a list of the most important things. So here’s my list (point in time) of things that are important to solve – what’s yours?

    1. Logic (correctly balanced w/ Imagination)
    2. Imagination (correctly balanced w/ logic)
    3. Patience
    4. Persistence
    5. BOTG and Failure
    6. Adjustment after Failure
    7. Coffee – lots of coffee -OR- Sweet Tea -OR- Wine

    It’s a very simple list for a very complicated puzzle. IMO

      • pdenver – good point but Logic remains first IMO. Let’s say it does have an edge over imagination.

    • I like your list, Covert One (but I’ll take the tea without the sugar, thanks!). Must admit I’m not the best at number 3, but the Chase is teaching me. The one thing I’d add to the list is deep thinking. It kind of goes with logic and imagination, but takes both to the next level – almost a transcendental state which may occasionally result in new revelations.

      • voxpops – I consider deep thinking logic grouped under logic and highly imaginative state (transcendental state) grouped under imagination but you make a good point.

        It is important to stretch the limits of both and let’s say “extreme” deep thinking logic and “extreme” imagination is required – with both in the right balance at any specific point in the poem and the chase. IMO

      • I’m going to agree with voxpops, but call it “Contemplation”. It wouldn’t be the same as logic or imagination, because both of those you can have in fleeting moments. Contemplation is a long deep thought.

        I’d also add that this is the only rabbit hole you need to be getting to the bottom of:


      • Hi Wig….welcome!….and good to see you are contributing.

        I felt your post is referring to the possibility of “a good map” – by pointing out intersecting grid does and columns on the map….is that what you are referring to?

        Id so, I’d have to disagree with that notion, because I have the “good map!”


        Need a sammich? It’s ham and cheese??!

  8. The one thing that F had found out on occasion in his life that not all things are what you think they are. One thing F found this to be true is, the area in Vietnam with the waterfall and the area seemed so serine and beautiful, in all reality this was not the case after he went there. Another was that he made a city disappear with his thumb, knowing that is not the true reality. One more is that it would be easy to follow the Lewis and Clark trail when it proved to be otherwise.

    Point being that not everything is what you think it is. What I am Not saying AT ALL is the poem is not what it seems. I’ve known this to be true as an investigator most always this was the case. There is the one thing in the poem that displays this the best, the all elusive blaze.

    Just food for thought!

    • Hi CM.

      “Point being that not everything is what you think it is. ”

      Well put.

      My first trek out in 2015, I used GE for most of all the travel planning and BITG exoloring,…..everything…..but also used any paper maps I could get a hold of, just to prepare, but even as much as I planned, I still missed my target area by six miles, and waisted a while day looking for something that was not there.

      After finally realizing my team and I were not in the place I intended, we packed up, backtracked on the route we had taken and then “put in” at another location. We found the spot in about 20 minutes of hiking.

      A birds eye view can mislead in itself.

      What I LEARNED from experiencing BOTG….
      – GE is not current
      – GE is too high up to actually see the correct lay of the land
      – foliage and overgrowth hinders BOTG, especially if you are not expecting it, because the environment does change from year to year.,,,trees die…although they stood for years….then one day that tree fell…..GE was not updated. Now you have a tree to trek over….around…etc.
      – water erodes every moment it moves, rivers and creeks change shape because of this. Rivers don’t usually die out, but creeks and stream will.

      There are other items that could be added to your thinking.

      Good post!

    • Such a good point, CharlieM. I think we all need to be very careful how much weight we place on things that are outside the poem. If there appears to be a contradiction between poem and external hint, I’d take the poem any day, simply because there are things in the poem that can’t lie and are immutable (IMO). I’m not sure we always understand what FF really means in his ATF statements (except those directed at safety).

    • “The poem is not what it seems”
      Very true!
      Yet, we know, all we need is the poem….
      I am trying to keep my eyes and ears on the poem…
      Other things are just distracting.

    • “food for thought”:
      Cultivated inhalation eases fallowed cerebration. If your mind and belly are full, thank God… and a farmer! 🙂

  9. A reply to Michael Hendrickson’s comment in the closed Odds n Ends. If I’m guessing your interpretation correctly, that geological formation isn’t unique. It is rare and the only place it occurs in the Rockies is in the region where you’re searching. There are some well known, large examples of it and other places where it consists of a single rock. But just wanted to let you know that there are, by my estimate, about 50 of those geological features within a 20-30 mile radius of there.

      • Accessibility and other constraints do rule out most of them. Sorry that you can’t get to more on your own. I also have a bit of an issue with getting into certain places and I agree with you that the correct one is very accessible. All of them that I’ve gone to (most not related to my solve) have been beautiful and fascinating. I’m glad to see someone else looking in this area. Enjoy the chase.

  10. Mr. Fenn’s comment, about the chest , not being in close proximity to a human trail, tells us nothing. It does not describe a distance. Another thought I’ve had, is that a parking area, is not a human trail.

    • If something is “on” the trail… Would it “not be in close proximity of the trail”. (It’s not “close”)( it’s “at”) (it’s “on)


  11. Hi guys,

    Just wondering what your thoughts are on the following;

    Some searchers think that HOB may have something to do with bears?

    Forrest has said repeatedly that there are nine clues within the poem and must be followed in consecutive order

    Please stay with me on this one.

    Brown Bear has nine letters.

    Nine clues, Nine letters.

    It may be possible in my opinion that we are all missing something here, could it be possible that the first letter of the first clue matches up with the first letter of the second clue and so on.

    For example;
    Clue 1. B
    Clue 2. R
    Clue 3. O
    Clue 4. W
    Clue 5. N

    Clue 6. B
    Clue 7. E
    Clue 8. A
    Clue 9. R

    Once you have solved the nine clues will reveal what the Blaze is?

    I would like to know what your thoughts are on this.

    Ronnie the Scot

      • Michael H.

        Go for it, you just never know?

        If you find the T.C then
        maybe you can send me a gold coin for guiding you in the right direction.

        Ronnie the Scot

      • James P

        Unfortunately you don’t have the first letter, you only have WWWH, and not the name of a Waterfall, Creek etc.

        Ronnie the Scot

    • I believe Forrest also said that the number nine isn’t significant, in that he counted the nine clues after the poem was written. He didn’t necessarily intend for there to be nine clues from the outset.

      • I remember that. I don’t know if he actually said ” not significant” but he did say he “counted after he wrote the poem” I do believe.

  12. Mr. Fenn, said that he he walked, less than a few miles from his car. That can mean , ten feet, or half a mile.

    • OR – as he said, “Less than a few miles – which could be three or four miles – IMO – JDA

      • Question – Is that “Less than a few miles” one way or two? One trip or two? My guess is about 2 miles one way – twice = 8 miles total – JDA

        • I think 8 miles is good for an upper limit for the total distance he walked. But I really think that half that distance is more likely. And I admit that is only my opinion.

          • I really don’t think F. carried the chest then the treasure 8 miles on foot on his birthday. IMO

          • Kenn –
            2 miles carry the treasure
            2 miles walk back empty-handed
            2 miles carry the box – put treasure in box – hide treasure and box
            2 miles walk back empty handed with a grin on his face
            P.S. don’t forget the bike he mentioned.

          • 79 – 80 year old man.

            We have several hiking trails here in VA, one of them is the easiest trail I’ve ever been on, and I’ve been on a lot. I regularly see 79 – 80 year old people on it, few of them ever hike out more than 2 miles and they’re not carrying anything heavier than a belt pack with a bottle of water and a cell phone in it. That 4 mile round trip takes them the best part of an afternoon.

            IMHO, I don’t think F. would have carried that treasure more than 1 mile from where he parked, and likely less than that. My gut tells me the treasure is within 1/4 mile of where he parked.

        • My guess would be, no more than 3/4 mile. Carrying 20 lbs. of dead weight, concentrated in a small area, is not the same as having that weight spread out on your back.

        • @JDA, I would think that 8 miles would be considerer “a hike” by a 79-80 year old, let alone someone half that age or even less. Now if Forrest has said that searchers should never hike alone in the Rocky Mountains, but then also said if you have a searching partner it is best to have them wait in the car, then it may be easy to infer that if you are walking/hiking 2 miles one way, or a total of eight miles, then your search area might not be correct.

          • I know it sounds silly, but everyone forgets about the bike.
            “Forrest responds-

            I am a very simple person and you want me to have copious meetings with lawyers, preachers, undertakers and your family. What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the “water high” when I am through with it? You don’t know how many man hours I have spent on that subject. Thanks for the input but I think you should mobilize your club and hit the trail searching for the wondrous treasure. Besides, I’ll probably get hit by a train. When you find the treasure please come sell me the great turquoise and silver bracelet that is in the chest. I wish now that I had kept it.” f

            To me, Forrest as much as says he took a bike with him when he hid the treasure.

            Would a 79 or 80 year old man “RIDE” a bike up or down a 2 mile trail? Probably not. BUT – If I were him, I would strap a backpack to the bike, walk the bike up the hill – IT carrying the weight, not me. – Ride or again walk the bike back down the trail – wash, rinse, repeat.

            Using a bike this way would have made the trip FAR easier – Didn’t Forrest say that he had thought of everything? Just supposin’ JDA

          • I think one thing f. always takes with him to interviews is his smoke machine. He’s not going to let anything slip that would give away the location of that chest, if it sounds like he did it’s a smoke screen. IMO

          • Yes, it does sound silly. Someone at 79 or 80 on a bike planting blazes miles and miles into the forest. Come on now, kinda funny though.

          • “I’ve done it Tired and now I’m weak”.

            He’s probably road a bike there before, so it’s likely you take a bicycle trail. Thing is, you can’t throw a dead trout without hitting a bicycle trail in the Rockies. I was gonna say a dead grizzly, but that didn’t sound doable.

          • Hi JDA – I could be wrong but I took the comment about the bike to be for when and if Forrest ever returned to the area to pass away with his treasure. I’m not reading his response to that question that he used a bike when he hid the treasure. Also if the chest is not near a human trail, it might be hard to lug a bike through the wilderness with a heavy lode. Just some thoughts as I see them.

          • Oz10;

            I know you are trying to be funny, but you are also misinterpreting and misrepresenting everything I have said.

            You say: “Yes, it does sound silly. Someone at 79 or 80 on a bike planting blazes miles and miles into the forest. Come on now, kinda funny though.
            1) I never said anything about “Planting blazes” – that is YOUR interpretation of what I said. “Planting Blazes” implies that the blazes are small enough to carry around and “plant” – Nothing could be farther from the truth.
            2) “miles and miles into the forest”
            I said that one blaze was 4miles from where I (and I believe Forrest) parked – that is not miles and miles. All of the rest of the blazes that I have found are less than 2 miles from the parking spot.

            3) My reference to the bike, using Forreast’s words, not mine relates to the day he hid Indulgence, not some other day when Forrtest was “Planting Blazes”

            Kindly separate fact from your distorted interpretation of what I said.

            You do not have to agree with what I say OZ10, but please refrain from contorting what I do say into something that has no resemblance of what I posted.

            Good Natured fun is fine, contorting a poster’s words into something that is not even recognizable when placed against the original post is not. JDA

          • 1. Planting blazes- you did say some of the multiple blazes that you have found are man made and you did implied that it was his blazes left there for you to find. If he didn’t plant them, did he painted them on rocks? Still, that could be considered planting a blaze.

            2. 4 miles each way can be (miles and miles) into the forest, regardless if one blaze is at 2 or 4 miles from the car. We know from the way he described his special place that it is a forest. I don’t see a difference.

            3. I know the comment he made about the bike, why was he not joking about it. He also said that the chest is not on top of a mountain but it could be close to the top. If you take that one literally, then how about riding your bike up close to the top of a mountain. Can a 79-80 year old do that? In his answer, didn’t he said he walked less than a few miles that day. So you are saying, WALK is just a figure of speech, he was actually riding a bike. Also, if he had a bike, why did he still need to do that second trip? Wouldn’t he be smart enough to take the contents in a backpack and attached the chest to the bike at the same time? Again, why keep suggesting that he is not telling the truth when he said he took 2 trips because the darn thing was heavy.

            I’m not here to distort anything, your ideas and examples are somewhat distorted from reality. Do you want searchers to agree with your ideas only? Pat in the back?

          • P.S. – Who said anything about a forest? again you superimposing what you thought you heard over what I actually said. I am quite sure that I have never implied that where I think Indulgence is is in a forest – “In the wood(s) yes” but I think I have been quite careful not to say it is “In a forest”. Just sayin’ JDA

          • OZ10
            No, I am NOT asking that everyone agree with me. It is obvious that you do not, and that is fine. Where I am taking exception is you distorting what I said.
            Yes, I did say that some are manmade.
            “Planting” implies that they are small – that is a distortion on your part. You have NO knowledge about their size.
            You then say, “did he painted (sic) them on rocks? Why would they have to be painted? There are a multitude of other ways to put a mark on a stone or tree or log or even on a cliff face. Again distortion.

            Why double the miles just to fortify your point? I said clearly that one blaze was 4 miles from the parking area, and others half that. 2 miles or 4 miles is NOT miles and miles.

            You then say,” 4 miles each way can be (miles and miles) into the forest, regardless if one blaze is at 2 or 4 miles from the car. We know from the way he described his special place that it is a forest. I don’t see a difference.”

            ” into the forest” – again I never have said I went “into the forest.”

            “We know from the way he described his special place that it is a forest.” – Please show me where he has ever said this. He has said, “”If I was standing where the treasure chest is, I’d see trees, I’d see mountains, I’d see animals. I’d smell wonderful smells of pine needles, or pinyon nuts, sagebrush” Trees – Not a forest.
            Mountains – maybe in the distance.
            Animals are found in the mountains, high desert plains or even in the desert itself. Pine needles – Pine trees can grow in relative small groves, not necessarily in a forest. Sagebrush grows throughout the four states, mostly NOT in forests.
            If you interpret these words of him having to be in a forest, that is YOUR interpretation – some may disagree.

            He might, or might not have been joking about the bike. WE do not know, why discount it even if it was a joke?

            As I said earlier, I doubt that he DID ride the bike up the mountain. I suggested he could have used the bike like a pack animal – walking the bike up the hill and back.

            If he had a horse, I could see the logic of not needing to take two trips. Try loading five gallon bottles of water or milk on a bike and walk it anywhere – even on a flat road – good luck OZ!
            You are not being logical.

            Nowhere have I suggested that he was not telling the truth when he said it took two trips. I absolutely agree with that. YOU are the one that suggested that he put on a backpack for 1/2 of the load, and put the other half on the bike – YOU suggested it, NOT ME!

            Lastly, you say,”I’m not here to distort anything, your ideas and examples are somewhat distorted from reality.” It is MY opinion that you may not be here to distort, but you certainly did a good job of it, for not trying.

            It is YOUR opinion that my ideas and examples are somewhat distorted from reality – Others may or may not agree with YOUR opinion.

            Enough said OZ. I started off by saying that I thought that you were just having a bit of fun. Your response indicates that you were not having fun, but that you intentionally distorted what I had to say. Your second response indicated that you hardly even read my rebuttal, but listened to only what you had already decided was the “Truth”.

            I will have no further rebuttals. Have a great winter recess OZ10. JDA

          • JDA, my original post was a very short one. Maybe to help you jolt out of an unlikely scenario. You snapped back at me with a long post because you seemed to hate dissent. Lets just keep it a conversation, no need for attacks. I don’t want to keep littering the blog with nonsense.

            So, it comes down to this: it is okay for you to interpret ‘walked less than a few miles that afternoon’ into 16 miles on a bike (possibly). But it is not okay for me to interpret your 16 miles into miles and miles??? What is wrong with this picture?

            You said: -There are a multitude of other ways to put a mark on a stone or tree or log or even on a cliff face.- I interpret that as planting a blaze, not because it is small enough to carry with him but because he had to make an effort and go paint, scribble, mark, sculpt something. The question is, did he had to get off his bike? Jesus…

            I see no difference between woods and forest when talking about it here. I didn’t call it a rainforest.

            Don’t forget that you have been wrong before, under water, one clue per sentence, etc, etc, etc… WALKED LESS THAN A FEW MILES and IN ONE AFTERNOON. Good night…

          • So you’re walking 3 miles one way? In my opinion, that’s too far. “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.” 12 miles in several hours with over 20 awkward pounds on your back for half of it is asking a lot of a 79-year-old man.

    • James,
      The fact that fenn use “miles” as his choice of measurement seems to indicated at least one mile is involved.
      When we read all the comments about what he did on the day he hide the chest… wouldn’t be likely fenn is telling us of the complete outing.
      The mention of two trips. From his car. Walked less than a few miles. And “done” in one afternoon.
      Now, take fenn’s suggestion, if we can’t walk several hours to our solve, twice, don’t go.
      We now have a time line of, several ‘hours’ and less than a few ‘miles’ for two trips… “Less than” doesn’t seem to mean a measurement of feet under 5280 ft. for two trips… a completed travel for hiding and/or retrieval.

      imo of course.

      • I would think that the scale of miles would be just a good way to keep the actual distance somewhat vague.

      • Something I found interesting; Fenn said the chest was hidden between 5000 and 10200 feet, a difference of 5200 feet, almost 1 mile.

        Probably just coincidence IMO.

        • In other words, no minimum is given , just a perceptible limiting maximum. Walking 20 feet is less than a few miles, IMO .

          • I’ve always believed that the best place to hide something is where no one would ever think to look for it. Right out in the open, right under their noses.

            Think about it, we have even right here on this site people who have solutions that take them hundreds of miles from point A to point Ω, some say f. walked 8 miles one way, some think he hiked down a canyon that I wouldn’t hike down empty handed. People think that because something is so valuable it has to be hidden waaaaaay out yonder beyond the sage brush and the rattle snakes where few have ever set foot, and that’s where they go looking.

            Meanwhile, the chest sits and waits right where f. stashed it when he was 79 – 80 years old. He did it in an afternoon. There’s a reason he did it in the afternoon, I think that’s because 79-80 year old men take that long to get out the door. My grandaddy used to tell me “when I was your age I used to hang my trousers on the bed post at night so I jump into them when I woke up in the morning”. I never saw him do it(jump into them I mean). I have seen him walk 3 miles one way and back, but he was used to it. The last car he owned was a model T Ford, I think when they stared requiring a license to drive he decided he’d done enough driving. But I digress.

          • Ideas are limitless. Wherever the spot he hid the chest is, I think he has been many times prior and knows the easiest ,quickest way to it. The Rockies terrain and forests can easily hide many things not noticeable even in close proximity IMO . How close or how far it is from where he parked is unknown. Not more than a few miles and in one afternoon could also be a 10 minute walk. No minimums are added within those statements . IMO . Many varied points of focus of the ATF comments. It’s a perfect time for another SB to add to the mix . IMO . Remote viewing 12:12:20:17 frequency lolol. IMO .

  13. Ms. pdenver-

    About a month ago I was walking along a dirt road with my metal detector, when a Jeep drove by ad slowed to a near stop. I could tell the woman driving wanted to ask me something, but her male passenger talked her out of it. That wouldn’t have been you would it? It makes me nervous when I find other searchers in my special spot.

    Best regards

    Sherif Billy

  14. Today was great. I was kind of having a bad day. Then this afternoon my wife came walking in with a priority mail box. The mail man came on Sunday and it was my copy of “Once Upon A While”. It’s really a very nice book–only got to read a little of it so far—but so thankful it showed up today!

  15. So no one has seen anything concrete that contradicts the tenet that the first two clues are “mapable” and the rest need to be BOTG?

    • Well I for one believe every clue can (and should) be solved from home. Forrest at least seems to think it’s theoretically possible:

      Interview question from May 2015:

      “How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Another way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?)”

      Fenn’s reply: “All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.”

      • Yeah, I’m not sure where to go with that. I guess “in theory” you could find videos or photographs of the site you’re thinking of and proceed….or actually…maybe that’s exactly what he means? Substitute a BOTG with Boots On The Internet?

      • The key concept from that quote is the “in theory” part.
        We can all theorize whatever we want, to whatever extent we want, wherever we want to do such mental exercises. A theory won’t pick up Indulgence and carry it back home though.

    • Fenn said “if you knew where the chest was hidden you could find it on that map”.

      So yeah, you can figure out the clues with putting BOTG.

  16. In answer to Colokid’s post above:
    “Colokid on December 10, 2017 at 4:26 pm said:

    You said: :”We have been told that GE is a good resource. Why specifically GE?”

    Actually what he said was “GE and/or a good map.” This has considerably different implications. ‘And/or’ is a logical operator that means you can use both together (GE and Map) or either one interchangeably (GE or Map). If GE and the ‘good map’ are interchangeable, than anything you do with one, you should be able to get out of the other.”

    I agree with this apart from your last statement. GE and the map provide overlapping but not identical resources; they don’t replicate each other in every respect. They can be used independently, or one can be used to assist the other.

    “If he intended that you over-magnify a GE image and find hidden pictures in the pixels, you should be able to do the same on a regular map right? How would you go about that?”

    This is a fundamentally flawed statement, IMO. Firstly, if I can use the +/- zoom buttons on my computer to achieve an image how is that “over-magnifying?” Surely it is simply magnifying. Secondly, if you can achieve satellite imagery on a paper map, you’ve got one heck of a good map! As I said above, they overlap but are not identical.

    As for seeing the pictures on a paper map, with respect, that’s silly, You can find your way with a good paper map, but you won’t have the confirmation provided by GE. That’s where the and/or comes in. I know that you don’t see (or don’t wish to see) what I’ve found in the images I’ve posted, and that’s absolutely fine, but they are available to all if they can extract the info from the poem, and marry that to GE.

    “I would also add that the pixel pattern you see is dependent on the resolution of the original image. If you looked at a higher or lower resolution image your pixel patterns would be hugely different. There’s no guarantee that every individual would be getting the same resolution image (if they do use other maps or digital map substitutes). The way he worded that any ‘good map’ should do…right…not format specific?”

    That’s really my point. GE provides specific images that are distinct from those provided by others. All useful digital mapping information I have obtained has been from Google. He specifically points to Google and/or a good map. If he doesn’t think Google is useful, he only needs to say “good map” as that could include digital maps from any supplier.

    “I don’t think Fenn is advocating GE as much as extending a variety of options for people who might not have access to a good paper map.”

    Then why single out Google? He didn’t point to Benchmark as a good paper map. The devil is in the detail.

    • Just to clarify: when I mentioned the +/- zoom buttons, I meant those in the Google Maps or Earth browser window. They both magnify a wider image or load a more detailed close image.

      Also, when I said, “If he doesn’t think Google is useful…” I meant more so than other digital mapping tools.

    • Vox, Colokid,
      This is not a comment for trivia’s sake as I feel it may be important in a searcher’s solution.

      Regarding Forrest’s “GE and/or a good map” phrase, you both are, IMO, making correct statements regarding “and” and “or” logic. However, I feel what’s being left out is an important component of the “or” outcome – that it defines not only interchangeable entities, but also describes exclusion with the one to the right of the “or” being dominant or, in this case, authoritative.

      I use both, and I use GE far more than the map, but when one contradicts the other in some way, I believe F’s statement is intended to define the authoritative data. Perhaps it is a random statement and it’s just as likely he might have mentioned “a good map” first, but he didn’t.

      Just my opinion.

      • Joe, you make an interesting point, although I don’t think we can be certain whether more weight is given to the “good map” or not. If you’re correct, it still doesn’t indicate why Google is singled out over alternatives.

        In my search the map has usually come first, as I can more easily obtain a broad perspective, check place names without them appearing and then disappearing as you zoom in/out in Google Maps, and get an approximate coordinate fix. I then use Google to pinpoint specific locations and see how they lie in relation to roads and physical features. When I have found the precise spot on the satellite image, I look to see if there is something unusual that marks the spot. Sometimes there is and sometimes not. When there’s something that ties in to Chase imagery, I have confirmation that I should visit that site. It’s pretty straightforward really.

        • Vox, my comment is more related to data elements inherent to both, and not the visual aspect, though I certainly agree with your GE usage. It’s a fantastic tool, and IMO, required for any serious or casual searcher.

          My supposition that there is a dominant/authoritative element to “or” logic should be questioned. It makes sense to me, but I’m certainly interested in other opinions.


        • F singled out Google as his dictionary these days. I don’t think that points to any important leads.

        • I think localized paper maps could have more detail than GE—Names and alternative names for canyons, creeks, etc. If such isn’t listed on GE, turn to another “good map” to refine your search (the paper map labeled with localized knowledge, terminology, legend, etc.)

        • Q- “Is the map that needs to be used to discover where warm waters halt found online or in paper form? or both?” ~mdc777
          A- “C’mon now agent 777, a map is a map. The more detailed maps are most useful if you have the right map, but I’m not sure I needed to tell you that.f ”
          And Marry the clues to a place on a map…

          Has Joe indicated “and/or” in fenn’s other comment about a good map, I think relates to the “right” map with the “right” details. Maybe ya’ll would be better off asking… what details is fenn referring to. I doubt pixels have anything to do with any type of map as to pixels, as Colokid pointed out, paper maps don’t have them.

          The “and / or” simply says GE is all you need or similar maps that can have the same information / details GE offers [ nothing so far indicate the ‘need’ for both or to need to overlay.
          If you can zoom in to a small location with GE… then you can do the same with a paper map by getting another paper map of the same smaller area.
          Example; the state of WY to the region of YSP to YS lake to the fishing bridge… etc.

          The difference from a paper map to a satellite mapping is; on a satellite map you can remove certain details… roads, churches, schools, historical sights, yep even labeling or names etc. or basically working with the ‘details’ of the land and waters… right down to a small boulder and pond type images, in almost real time… a paper map can’t do that, unless it’s specialized, and very hard to locate, or even understandable by the average person.

          I just don’t think fenn meant a searcher to supply themselves with all kinds of mappings. Just using GE seems to be enough for the average person. Again, might the question be… what kinda details fenn is referencing to the “Right Map”? Funny thing is… when we hear the word map, we automatically look for a type of store bought map. What about property maps?

          Why can’t the details of ‘the whole map place’ be of something seen from GE with the information within the place/location?
          A good example of this would be, the medicine wheel as a good or right map.
          Why can’t a map of ‘all’ water ways or watershed details be the right map with the right details…
          Then again, if ya’ll want roads to drive on from point to point… skip that idea.

          fenn stated; “They’re contiguous {the clues} …I knew where I wanted to hide the treasure chest, so it was easy for me to put one foot down and then step on it to get to the next foot. That’s what I did.”

          • Seeker,
            I agree with your comments regarding map usage. IMO, paper maps are not necessary for research/solving the poem. I haven’t purchased a paper map in decades. I’ve been able to locate free digital maps that have a good level of detail and decent elevation line intervals.

            For BOTG, I always utilize a GPS, and I use the same digital maps on computer and GPS. I print appropriately-zoomed local maps for my searches – a backup is a must-have, IMO, and that includes an old-school magnetic compass. That was the only option until not too long ago, it seems. Since I’m rarely on trails, I always plot my intended path using both GE (visual) and digital map (elevation lines). In apex-predator country, I try to stay in relatively open areas, to the extent possible. The harsh reality of BOTG will always modify, to some extent, a plotted path. Moving things back and forth between GE and digital map usually provides pretty accurate intended paths and waypoints’ placement. Eventually, these make their way to my GPS.

            As you mention, the right level of detail in any map is crucial. You also mention property maps and, yes, these too are available in digital format and free. On some of my searches, avoiding private property was a concern with regard to parking and early/late parts of the hike. I don’t believe too many searchers, if any, look forward to an irate landowner with a Sheriff in tow.

            If anyone is wondering, I use Garmin Basecamp software to view maps, import/export to/from GE, computer, and GPS, and manage maps on the GPS. My GPS is a Garmin, but the sw is, I believe, compatible with other GPS types.


      • Vox, Colokid,
        After a bit of research, I redact what amounts to a false premise in my previous comment, that being there is exclusion and therefore, a dominant/authoritatve implication from an “and/or” statement in rhetoric. Sorry, my premise was wrong, and your logic statements are correct.


    • Vox,

      I know you are hooked on GE and that I won’t dissuade you from the way you’re using it. The fact that you asked the question makes me wonder if, deep down, you are really sure it’s doing what you want. Troubleshooting 101 says, if something isn’t working, go back and reevaluate your base assumptions.

      You: “GE and the map provide overlapping but not identical resources; they don’t replicate each other in every respect. They can be used independently, or one can be used to assist the other.”

      I agree but this is the ‘and’ part. I don’t think you are following the ‘or’ argument. The or, as a logical statement, implies that they are interchangeable for the purposes of the chase, not that they provide identical functionality. So the wording, from a strict reading in the logical sense, tells that, whatever resource information is available on GE (that might help with the Chase), the identical information can be gotten from a map. I’m not saying this, fenn is saying this.

      You keeping asking: “Then why single out Google?” I’m not sure he does. Just because that’s the only digital map he mentions does not imply he’s advocating that it’s necessary, needed, or best. I think you have drawn a conclusion based on his omission….not an overt statement. He knows not everyone has the same resources available, and people want to use their computers, so it’s an option he threw out. Where does he say that it’s best or better than any other map software? A straight read of the sentence is that it’s an option.

      Actually he did point out the Benchmark map, said how good it was, and how he hoped it would be a benefit to searchers. (paraphrase)

      • Thanks for the response Colokid. I’ll try to address your points.

        You said: “The fact that you asked the question makes me wonder if, deep down, you are really sure it’s doing what you want.”

        Lol! I wondered if someone would suggest that. No, I asked the question because I’m curious as to the way others are using the resources available, and I’d like to know if people think Google is being favored by Fenn. For me, my analysis of the poem, verification via Google and then on the ground, is doing exactly what I want – no doubt of any kind in my mind. I’m also trying to cope with my impatience and the long wait until spring by engaging here. As soon as I’m able, I’ll be out there again to cease my quest.

        You said: ” I don’t think you are following the ‘or’ argument. The or, as a logical statement, implies that they are interchangeable for the purposes of the chase, not that they provide identical functionality. So the wording, from a strict reading in the logical sense, tells that, whatever resource information is available on GE (that might help with the Chase), the identical information can be gotten from a map. I’m not saying this, fenn is saying this.”

        I don’t think Fenn is saying that identical information is available on both – that’s your assumption. Certainly, I agree that either can be used to the exclusion of the other, but I have found that GE provides something extra – namely visual confirmation and an easy way to draw connecting distance lines/measurements. In addition, a good map also provides something extra – namely contour lines and more detailed place names. You just get more by combining these resources.

        You said: “You keeping asking: “Then why single out Google?” I’m not sure he does. Just because that’s the only digital map he mentions does not imply he’s advocating that it’s necessary, needed, or best. I think you have drawn a conclusion based on his omission….not an overt statement.”

        That’s a fair point. I really don’t know if he’s mentioning Google for any particular reason – hence the question. It’s just interesting to me that I find marked differences between some Google images and Bing Maps. But it does feed into my general premise that it’s best not to be hard and fast about the ATF statements unless they can be corroborated by the poem, as FF is a master of hiding what he wants to say within innocuous-sounding words.

        • Vox,
          One last try.
          You: “I don’t think Fenn is saying that identical information is available on both – that’s your assumption.”

          Again, I’m not saying or assuming that they provide identical information. They don’t. I’m saying that the ‘OR’ statement indicates that they should be of IDENTICAL BENEFIT for the purposes of the Chase. Another way of saying this might be that either one could provide the same level of confidence in the success of your search. If you really agree that one could be used exclusively over the other, than an interesting exercise for you would be to see if a paper map of your area is just as useful.

          That you say GE provides ‘extras’ sounds like you’re saying that one can’t be used at the exclusion of the other.

          Just trying to help you exam your base assumptions. “The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust. “f

          Another thing to consider is the statement that all you really need is the poem (paraphrase). This should bring in to mind that the poem can be solved without any map or map program. These are only mentioned as a resource or aid.

          Ultimately it’s searches choice.

          • Colokid, I was responding to this statement of yours:
            “…whatever resource information is available on GE (that might help with the Chase), the identical information can be gotten from a map.” So I hope you’ll forgive me for interpreting that the way I did – that you were saying identical information was available on both resources. Now I understand that you meant to say of “identical benefit.”

            I stand by what I said. You can use either or both, but you get more info by combining them. The poem provides the precise points that I have needed to travel to, and I could have got to where I am now with the aid of just a paper map and a GPS (since my solution relies on coordinates from the poem). However, my confidence has been boosted hugely by using GE. It is also a real convenience to be able to plot trajectories on a digital resource, particularly during a BOTG trip.

            Again I am very happy with my base assumptions: poem plus digital and paper maps, plus GPS = happy searcher! As for not using any map at all… good luck with that!

        • I agree with Colokid’s logic: the “or” option of “and/or” means that EITHER option alone will do the job. Therefore, if there is some feature of a “good” paper map that is not found in Google Earth, or vice versa, then that feature cannot be critical to solving Forrest’s clues. If Forrest had meant that the ~union~ of the two map types was necessary, there would be no purpose to the “/or” part of his statement.

          • Exactly, Zap. That’s what I’ve been saying. You can use either or both. But there is more than just essential info. If you find an image of something online, that boosts confidence. Google is a friend with benefits!

          • I liked this map discussion a lot…I think GE is actually really useful…I like the ‘history’ function where you can move the sun on a given date to see how shadows change, etc. I think FF is quite tech savvy for his age, and I think as a pilot he was used to seeing hi res satellite images from his AF days, and watching the progression was probably interesting for him.

            For an interesting data point, and I offer this up to anyone interested…I recently came into possession of USGS 7min series topos of several interesting WY maps…including Yellowstone…the fun part these are circa 1951-1961…very cool to see these from FFs time. I can take a pic and text if you want to ask me for any in particular. trevorsmith369@hotmail.com

          • Zap and Colokid…I was going to go down this road with comments yesterday…but alas…the point is actually kind of redundant. Some folks just have a mindset/or their mind set, beforehand.
            The whole idea of using Google Earth images of trees and rocks for justification of a clue just seems way too far out there to make any sense.
            The word “or” is really not ambiguous.
            I personally prefer the hard copy form of map. The only possible twist I see is the inclusion of the word “good”. I am not reading anything into that…but one certainly could go down that dead end road as well. I will say that some of the “vintage” maps have some pretty dang interesting stuff included….

          • Vox…I brought it back up here to illustrate where my questions stem from. Your 12/11 @3:36 PM posting to anyone new…
            Your post is in response to the long back and forth w/ ColoKid. You are asserting that “coordinates” are necessary to the solve. But then are saying that each coordinate brings you to a place that points to a certain marker of sorts( gas cylinders/ frog rocks etc.). You also state that you have provided only some photos of these objects. I’m curious to know why…after all of the ATF from Fenn you believe that there are coordinates that show a path…which then leads to a marker(gas cylinder) which then allows you to seek the next coordinate(from the poem) which leads to another anomaly…and so on? I mean…does this method not make you even suspect that something doesn’t seem “correct”?
            All of Fenn’s ATF seem to indicate something OTHER than a “scavenger” hunt…looking for non lasting( I pick up trash) laying around indiscriminately in nature? I am not knocking anything here or looking for bad vibes…but…this seems to fly directly into the face a long, arduous cycle of an unhappy trail. I know, I know…this is your solve and I respect that for sure…it just does not seem very tidy or eloquent.
            I still get very lost(I’m thick) when I try to see the relationship to following the nine clues to a place where the searcher is on their own?

        • Vox,
          I think we beat #6 to death so lets move on to #3.
          You:”If you’re not into coordinates, how do you interpret precisely, particularly over distance?”

          I think part of the answer I would give is that it probably isn’t distributed over a large distance. We have no way of knowing but if you consider we only have 9 pieces of information to work with (clues), then every one is vital to moving us closer. I you believe it’s spread out over a large distance, then a good portion of the clues are simply leading us on a scavenger hunt from point to point (miles apart) rather than homing in closer and closer to a refined target. This seems like a waste of the limited info to me.

          The short answer is: if Begin=Begin (and we know this is true), then it’s logical to assume Cease probably=Cease. If that’s the case then the precision rests mostly on identifying the blaze (having previously solved the other clues). If a searcher can interpret his words and ‘marry those clues to a map’, as he suggests, what’s so hard about that conceptually? To me, this sounds a lot more appealing then stating that ‘all the information has been exhausted’ at some point in the search.

          So coordinates….(boy this is going to open a can of worms). Isn’t the lure of the coordinate just what you said…precision of getting to a spot? If you told me the coordinates for the chest itself are in the poem then coordinates=precision would make sense…..however if that were true then why do we need the rest of the poem….short-cut time? Using coordinates to get you part way there doesn’t seem like it sweetens the concept of precision.

          Disclaimer: I’m not saying coordinates aren’t possible….just seems a lot harder to me to make that work.

          • **** Colokid wrote – “I think part of the answer I would give is that it probably isn’t distributed over a large distance. We have no way of knowing but if you consider we only have 9 pieces of information to work with (clues), then every one is vital to moving us closer. I you believe it’s spread out over a large distance, then a good portion of the clues are simply leading us on a scavenger hunt from point to point (miles apart) rather than homing in closer and closer to a refined target.” ****

            I agree, Colo-k. In addition, it seems to me that to start off negotiating large distances from clue to clue really reduces the possibility that “there’s no other way, to my knowledge.”

            In other words, if you go (say) 20 miles from WWWH to the next “place on the map”, then there are probably many ways to get to that next place without having to have identified the correct WWWH.


          • Let’s play with the idea that coordinates don’t tell of the chest, but the start?
            Seeing there are many wwwh in the RM’s and its the first clue to “lead” us to the chest… would a set of coordinates that tells us where the correct wwwh is, be a clue itself? [ the starting point of the “clues” ]

            I can’t see that any coordinates would be of the hidey space… like Colokid said… that’s a short cut [ even if the clues present those coordinates ]. And fenn said he followed the clues when he hid the chest. In the case of coordinates being the clues themselves is highly unlikely,as well.

            IF we know what hoB is.. why would we be concern about wwwh [ reverse engineering ] wouldn’t wwwh be needed and not skipped in that case?
            However, seeing the poem holds all the information to find the chest… Something must tell us where the starting point is.

          • Seeker,
            Yeah, I don’t wholly discount that the starting point (WWH) could be a coordinate but even that has a huge problem IMO.

            A complete coordinate (Lat and Long) is represented by somewhere between 17 and 21 digits (depending on the system you use). So we are then looking for 17+ hidden pieces of information (digits….in order) to make up on clue location. Once again we are faced with the idea that an ever expanding amount of data has to be pulled out of the poem rather than simply thinking we only need 9 things/places. Is it even possible to encode 17 digits into the first sentence?

            Maybe it’s just me but coordinates seem to be making the problem harder not easier.

          • Colokid: on the question of coordinates, there is a hybrid possibility that I keep in mind. Suppose Forrest provided only the latitude or longitude, but not both? That would not be too useful for pinpointing a location, but (for instance) if in solving and then following the clues your route was narrow and took you across a supplied latitude or longitude line, you would have all the precision of a coordinate pair with half the data.

            This would (mostly) thwart attempts to use the single coordinate by itself to short-circuit the clues. In DMS format, 7 digits is all you’d need to get the latitude to 3-meter accuracy. In decimal degrees, 7 digits would get you down to 1-meter accuracy (better than GPS precision).

          • Zap…I’ve got to say that is a good possibility…one that was in my cross hairs for a bit. It has never panned out in any useable fashion for me…still a good back up idea.
            If one couples this with Colo’s idea about the blaze and precision…this might be viable.

          • I’m not sure if this is correct, but someone – may have been a couple of yrs ago – had once stated that they found the number “44” in the poem and tied it to the YNP latitude…I think…..*shrugs*….

            I’m not one to think that there are coordinates, but never have fully discarded the thoughts surrounding on how people can come up with them without “messing with the poem”.

            Can it be done? I guess it could….but then I would think it becomes a cipher, and FF said we didn’t need any ciphers.

            But….if you think about not messing with the poem, and applying some sort of numeric description to the words in the poem, you may very well come up with a pattern that is embedded inside the words in the poem.

            Is that a cipher? I’m not sure.


          • Zap,
            Sure, there are a lot of hybrid possibilities. Yours could work but I think the ‘precision’ would still be a question. It would depend on being able to follow a very precise bearing (kind of like Vox’s extrapolated line) so that you hit the known coordinate line at the right spot. Any errors following the bearing get larger the further away you get from your last known point. Tricky but certainly possible.

          • For anyone new to the Chase, the following is my opinion only.

            Simple answer, Colokid, is that the coordinates for the hiding place ARE in the poem, but there’s no way to recognize them until you’ve found them! Yes, that’s a crazy paradox, I know. So how do you deal with that? You follow the clues – with absolute precision. There is no way to shortcut the process. If you think you can jump ahead, you’ll come unstuck. It’s pretty much foolproof!

            In some ways, this IS partly a scavenger hunt, but it also homes in on the target – gradually and following a tortuous but logically geometric path. And there is something about the path that is mapped that suggests the hunt has a wider dimension than just Forrest’s whim or family homage, although I believe it contains those elements as well.

            Since I’m not going to reveal method, I expect those that want this to be a small-scale, find-the-blaze-and-then-you’re-home-and-dry hunt will dismiss this concept out-of-hand. That’s their privilege, but I am not seeing anything offered by anyone that provides any evidence to the contrary. Whether people accept the validity of the physical and digital evidence I have provided over the past two or three years, these items nonetheless show consistency with Chase characteristics: omegas, squares (see “IDEA” in the poem), frog, smile, asterisk, “1”, “?”, etc. (and there’s plenty more that I haven’t published – not least what lies at the end). One or two items could be dismissed as coincidence, but dismissal of a growing body of them smacks of closed-mindedness – and that’s not a healthy searcher characteristic, since we all know that imagination is required.

            So how has this evidence been accumulated? By finding the coordinates in the poem and then going to the relevant sites. And all of them – bar none – are in accessible places, the kind of places that an eighty-year-old man could go.

            I am really content for everyone else to ignore coordinates and the big picture, but I think it’s a shame how narrowly people interpret this amazing construct that is the poem. To me it’s a palace that contains many, many fabulous rooms. 9 clues? Sure, but don’t think that’s the end of the story.

          • Colokid. I know we have our disagreements but… You said, “I you believe it’s spread out over a large distance, then a good portion of the clues are simply leading us on a scavenger hunt from point to point (miles apart) rather than homing in closer and closer to a refined target. This seems like a waste of the limited info to me.

            What is a large distance? We don’t know, right? If the start of the Chase is at point “A” and the end of the Chase is “I” being the TC, all in alphabetical order by (clues)… I will concede to 9 for you for this example…. Let say that the distance is 42 miles apart. Then I’m not understanding your answer of “Scavenger hunt” and “not honing in” ?

    • Google Earth is a fairly good resource; Google Search has become so add ridden and biased that it’s practically useless now.

      • Seeker, when did Forrest say he followed the clues when he hid the chest? I’ve never heard that. I’ve always understood that he was able to get to the hidey spot via a shortcut.

        • I think that the answer to your question is here:
          Question posted 6/20/2014:

          I have a question for Mr. Fenn:

          When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?

          Thank you Curtis

          The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f
          “There is no other way” says to me that it is a “One way in, one way out.” But, that is just how I interpret it. JDA

          • The one that JD posted, and this:

            “To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?)” f   (posted 6/5/2107)


          • @JDA, you are missing one:

            Posted in November 2014:

            My question is… when the treasure was hidden, did you follow the clues just like they are mentioned in the poem or did you just go to where you wanted to hide it, knowing that the poem would lead someone there? Does that make sense? ~Tim

            Tim, I knew from the beginning where to hide the treasure. It wasn’t until later that the clues were provided to find that spot. I don’t know “…that the poem will lead someone there,” as you asked, but the poem does provide everyone with that opportunity. f

          • The Wanderer – Good find. I had found it also, but didn’t want to overload, but good detective work – JDA

          • Jake…your posting of that particular ATF from Fenn brought to mind the discussions about the timeline of the completion of writing the poem…and was it completed before or after he hid the treasure.
            Many think it was written in its entirety after(because of his comments)…and many also believe otherwise. There is an argument either way because of how he worded his comments.
            Another take on how he worded it…is when he said, (…although I hid it before the poem was complete.(completed?)…is that he was referring possibly that while hiding the treasure(following the clues) he hid it before the end of the poem. This could simply mean a couple of basic premises…The clues end before the end of the poem…or…because of how close the clues are in relation to each other, he was able to do the deed before the last clue.
            Either way…either one is more than viable.

          • ken – I think he may have hidden the treasure, then finished writing (the ending to) the poem. In other words, the clues were followed to hide the chest, and he polished the parts of the poem that did not contain the clues (especially now that he wasn’t intending to throw himself on the chest and use the line about leaving his bones).

          • Bowmarc…That is certainly a possibility. The reason I put this back out there is because of Colokid’s comments above about logic…and Begin=Begin and Cease= Cease. Along with Fenn’s ATF posted by Jake it reminded me of this.
            I reconciled and checked this one off my list long ago.
            I believe Fenn made a “correct” response and worded it just so. He knew it would spark a flurry of dissections and give searchers another point to debate.
            None the less…his wording does support what I proposed. The clues were complete and the chest hidden… before the poem was complete(completed?).

        • I think you need a cup of coffee and a nap, cause I never said Forrest followed the clues in the comment you’re replying to.

  17. Zap, Vox, Joe and everyone who has posted recently has made some enormous progress IMO and are making the leap into a workable solution of pinpointing the exact “General Solve” this is the way logic works when a target acquisition is made. ff knows a lot about “Target Acquisition” and he also knows how to find those guidelines, and borders that allow for an exact spot to be found using our given 9 clues to within a few steps.

    “How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Another way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?)”

    Fenn’s reply: “All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.”

    Now lets say that Forrest wakes up one morning in the 1970’s and wants to clear his head about the trials of life, the agony of the Vietnam War and its unfortunate result, the trifles of day to day struggles, building a business, raising a family, looking after friends who have lost their way in life, all these things that we humans face daily. So what do you do to relieve your stress? You go out to the Airport, and you open the hangar door and climb into the cockpit and investigate a place in your imagination, a Shangri-la of escape, with a destination in mind of something from your childhood, a memory of times which were more pleasant, and life was full of intrigue and mistakes were coated with much less consequence that mistakes made later, in senior moments, when life presses in on us.

    So he spent 348 days in Country and flew 328 missions, 2 of which had serious, life threatening possibilities, those experiences make one realize what is important but also you ask yourself why was I spared and my roommate was not? Why is that I must go and leave my trove? What purpose (s) am I still (left) here on the planet for? That is why he wrote his “Memoirs” with such profundity, and why a scrapbook would include “Candy Ann” now ff can’t stop adding to this body of work.

    Ask what place in his reverie would represent a spot that evokes his point, a place or frame of reference to his experiences in life, and there you will find his resting place, that probably is not the spot where he found his first arrowhead with his father at a field in Texas, but this spot may incorporate an element of that event, like a little Arrow head Image if you use your imagination? Even stuck in a Buffalo Skull on the left side, embedded there forever, I know where one exists and I could show it to everyone, but it is there in plain sight on Google earth for everyone to see.

    Yellowstone is no stones throw away and to fly from Santa Fe, NM to it, the heading could be 328 degrees NNW and the heading for his meetings at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody, Wy might just be a heading of 348 degrees NNNW just saying, Why is it 630 miles to the gate from Santa Fe Airport? Why did Rob Johnson mention 630 characters in the poem? Now how far could ff fly on a take of gas in the his airplane?

    If we look at the “BIG PICTURE” and frame the 4 states of the Chase and the Rocky Mountains along this path we will surely find his special spot, after all he left us this pathway, it exists somewhere and all the elements the 9 clues included from the poem, the salient points he called “hints” in the Thrill Book will be there too our mission is to look for that target, it may be on that tangent and surely all the hats that Forrest wore in life will be displayed there since it is his special place.

    I think it is nearer to where he chose to live but was rarely visited by him and a few special people, all who have now passed, except for possibly those who have flown over and marveled at the place, for it’s simplicity and elegance, a place of graceful beauty and serenity where his bones and the chest could rest undisturbed until someone puts “it” all together and retrieves his Indulgence, which may in essence represent his mortal coil. Thank you Shakespeare we all have our stage and our part…what will yours be?

    If I never find the TC I have found my special place, and I am at peace.



    PS if you wish to see the Arrowhead Archway and the Buffalo Skull just use Google Earth and Zoom in on the Garfield Memorial Tunnel near Osier, Co it will be there, a perfect image, the RR tracks are the horns and click on the posted pic of the archway. I shot my video from about a mile away, on a brass marker that Dal has a photo of, ask him to post it since I can’t.

    • Lovely post, TT! I often wonder why so many searchers ignore the pilot aspect of FF’s character and have such small-scale solutions.

      • Voxpops, the key might just be NAVIGATION? Nautical terms are also Avionic Terms along with V.O.R. all those systems I fixed in the Navy, few people truly understood Gyroscopic Compasses, did you know that the Arma dual rotor compass floated in a vat of Pure Mercury? Also Sperry’s Gyros were suspended like a pendulum on Piano wire, in the 1960’s analog tech at its best, we even used Thy-tron Tubes to broadcast signals to synchronous repeaters throughout the ship. Truly this technology has all been replaced by GPS, and computers, but it is still the back up plan on ships, aircraft and even tanks, artillery and the guidance systems in rocketry. Some stuff is hard to replace… kind like us old guys and gals.


    • TT,
      I just leaned back in my chair and watch your flick, enjoying the symphony, watching the antique locomotive chuggin ‘long …. then at the start of 9:36 point, I saw it… a square tarry scant of colored rock, embedded into it’s larger cousin as the train disappear behind it…
      So, I have to ask… is that a tourist train and where can I get a ticket.
      I always want to take a vintage train ride through the high mountains, listening to the rhythmical clickety-clack, and draw in the aroma of essence smoked wood, while each imperfect dip, crook and sway lazily flexing my senses, emoting the scenery slowly changing around each bend.
      Nice Video…

      Oh! and did you happen to see that rock?

      • Seeker, I know that rock it and the entire area of where I shot this video, for some 71 years of my life on earth, almost as soon as I could walk and explore my family would take me to this pristine canyon called the TOLTEC, some carried me and later I carried some family member into there, I know it so well. There are graves of some train workers in the bottom, but someone took their headstone. I know it right down to the name of the best fishing holes in the Los Pinos River bottom, like the one where “Old George” lives, he is a rather large, perhaps 20″ cagey Brown Trout, likes to hide under a rock as big as a 10 story building, I know he is living there cause I took his brother out and unceremoniously ate him a few years back. The problem is if you do not go down at the right spot you might fish just one hole and have to climb out 600′ to the RR tracks to get to the next fishing hole, a lot of work if you do not recognize the easy way down.

        But since all you searchers are my friends and we all share our solves so unselfishly, go back and watch my video at 8:38 min in, look directly below and there you can see is an unmarked trail down from the RR tracks, it is due south and directly below my vantage point, that ridge will give way to a left turn into a nice huge grove of Aspens, easy walk to wind and wend your way to the bottom of Toltec Gorge.

        Do not try to go down from this elevated vantage point some 500′ above the tracks where I shot this, too dangerous, and remember my place has no trial and no markers to it, it is however all in New Mexico, I can assure you that a 6 year old has walked to it in a snow storm the day I shot this video.

        PS, we have driven a Toyota Camry to the nearest place and parked but it is not a paved road, however well maintained by Colorado because it goes to the lunch stop at Osier, halfway pt of train ride. Where you park is 1.29 miles away from this point of majesty. But you can get lost and its 1500′ decent to the River from the ledge and ridge along this gorge.

        There will soon be 8′ to 10′ of snow up at 10,200′ on this ridge and as ff cautions, do not tread there in winter..


        PS What were the Ancient Toltec’s famous for?


        • TT,

          I will tell you that my absolute original solve was for the Toltec Gorge with WWWH being the Privately own land which keeps you from fishing the Los Pinos River North of the Osier halfway point.

          However it is this location that taught me how powerful Confirmation Bias can be and how important it is to clear your mind of all preconceived ideas. Because the idea of Architecture and Wisdom (“wise”) were the stakes I was using to justify or start looking at this location.

          This made me spend a lot of time trying to make the spot conform to a solution and in truth I was just minutes from going there directly from Nebraska, after watching the Total Eclipse this summer…

          Is it in the canyon down from not far from the Osier lunch point, Maybe but I could never really and rationally make it conform to the book TToTC nor the Poem nor all the many other artifacts which I have collected since then. If someone has a good solve for this place I wish you the best because WOW what a special place it is!!!

          I do want to address a question that has come up previously in this thread regarding Forrest Fenn’s comments and Rednecks.

          In other threads people have suggest that even though Forrest says his target audience is every redneck with a pickup truck, that doesn’t mean he believes that is the type of person who will eventually find the treasure.

          Others have said this certainly can’t be the case due to what it cost to undergo the pursuit of a search.

          Please keep in mind Forrest perspective. His family went to Yellow Stone National Park as kids and literally fished and hunted to survive cheaply. So from his perspective (I’m asserting) a Redneck with a large family to feed and a pickup truck might be the perfect scenario. They drive, like his family did, up into the wilderness for the summer, enjoying the wonders and the bounty this land has to offer but at nighttime when the Gypsies music is playing and the spirits are dancing, they could ponder the poem and imagine how their hunting and fishing locations put an ‘X’ on the map’s . And maybe this family would systematically go about doing this summer after summer, just as his family did — until they found the very right spot!

          My father died this weekend and I wish my family had been those rednecks…we would have spent a lot more real time together


    • TT – piper Malibu’s have a range anywhere from 1000 to 1500 nautical miles, depending on load and which model. Seems reasonable he could cruise to anyplace he wanted in the search area from Santa Fe NM. I have a giant ‘X’ that is highly visible from a small plane, is on a ‘easy’ flight path to Cody (that would allow for safety/refueling/less wind,etc), is within the search area map, would be an easy drive at a later time. I have not had luck getting the rest of the clues to line up, but maybe someone else will…tell me this X does not intrigue: 42.4069, -105.6244. I have not heard of many discussing this area, but for those that don’t know…the major city nearby hosts an international air show each year, usually a big military presence as well…my bet is FF has been there once or twice (not necessarily chase related). I absolutely believe FF has flown over his spot at sometime…does that play into the chase…I don’t think so…the ‘Redneck from Texas with 12 kids in the pickup truck’ comment.

    • Nice video TT ! I like trains and one of my bucket list items is a Trans Canada vacation. Toronto – Vancouver.
      Thanks for sharing…

      • Thanks ken, the country of Canada is like much of the Western USA there are a lot of prairies and mountains too, Banff and Lake Louise are two very beautiful spots do not miss them, since your going across don’t miss taking the Alcan AKA https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alaska_Highway

        I have traveled to Alaska 10 times in my life and in 1995 I landed a 300 lb Halibut, and two 69 lb Kings with a 9wt Flyrod, transported 385 lbs of Filet’s back to New Mexico…Awesome Adventures, no place like the Great North.. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=OUZGWjv1L68

    • SmokyBaer, These Steam Locos are filled by water (towers) high as they pull those heavy loads, this is the highest RR track in USA and the max grade is 5 percent, thats why it weaves in and out of these mountains, crosses border 11 times in 64 miles, built in 1880 in only 9 months time, we could not do that feat today.


  18. Forrest said that he “sprinkled hints throughout the book” to me it’s so incredibly obvious !
    When wrote about going to Borders Book store and that it raining both days.
    Borders: Indian Reservation
    Raining both days: The Water Clan of the Tewa
    The story of his Spanish Toy Store where he talks about making marbles.
    Marbles: this is how the Indians made the beads they used.
    The story of him sneaking out his window to stare at the stars.
    Stars: the Hopi believe their Gods came from the stars
    The story of watching the gypsies dancing around there camp fire.
    Dance: does this not sound like the ceremonial dances of the Kachina?
    The story of tea with Olga and that Fenn preferred Black, Red, or Green
    Tea: Black, Red, or Green is the color of the Indian pots Fenn has excavated.
    I could go on and on. . . .why is no one seeing this?

    • Carol – I’d say you have more than a passing knowle(d)ge of Native American customs/traditions so these things may seem obvious to you. By all means, go on and on—I’m listening. 🙂

      • Forrest has stated himself that he is not a religious man but yet a spiritual man. Even the custom of putting your spirit belongings all in one place screams the customs of Native American Indians. Archaeology is Forrest Fenn special place, after all he spent his 84 Birthday at San Lazaro! What more can I answer for you?

        • Carol-
          Personal solutions are allowed on the blog. There are scores of them already published here.
          What isn’t allowed is a solution that is written as if it is the only solution rather than the searcher’s opinion or personal belief.

          Submit your solution again so that readers will understand that it is only “Your Theory” and not “The Solution” and it will be allowed.

          For more on this…click on the “rules’ tab at the top of this page.

          • Clearly-
            I think that phenom has only occurred recently, within the past six months or so…and perhaps 2 or 3 times in that period.
            Unless I am simply naive, I think most folks wanted to give me information in the hope that I would see how amazing their solution was and partner with them to go get it.
            For the past several years I have asked folks not to send me any solution unless they want it published on the blog. In fact, I’ve never seen a solution from anyone that seemed likely. At best they were as poor as my own poor solutions and at worst, they were unimaginably bad and included places like trash piles, toxic waste dumps, runoff ponds, sewage treatment plants, golf courses, obscene scratches on trees, rocks and barns and other unlikely places as clues. It has always seemed to me that some folks grasp at any handy place they see as a clue rather than grasping the “back story” of Forest’s childhood, which in my mind is a journey to a special place through Forrest’s lovely outdoor church.

      • Bow, I really didn’t Bow, my philosophy was study the man FF and one may gain a better understanding of the poem and possibly where he is coming from in his heart. When he spoke of his fond memories of searching for arrowheads with his father, I think it had a deep impact on him and lead him to a world of discovery that he still pursue to this day it seems. So much so that both he and his brother pursued archeology, Forrest on land and Skippy at sea.

    • Carol, maybe no one is seeing this is because all you are doing is guessing. Have not seen anything you have written regarding solving the poem. Since you are into dancing, Indian culture, and staring at stars, maybe “dancing with the stars” is more the line you should play. Ding ding, as long as the poem references it, by all means, go on and on and on…

        • Wasn’t trying to be funny, was trying to get you to the Bighorn medicine wheel. Ring any bells? Sun dance, stars, page 137, bells, summer solstice, etc…..

    • Stands in Timber, a chronicler of Cheyenne Memories, was named Forrest by the priests at a mission school, but he said “that didn’t stick”. A different Forrest said in 7th grade “they couldn’t take my name away.”

      RU thinking about titles & ‘brave and in the wood’?

  19. Tbug, you’re right, GE is incredibly useful and informative. Whatever map you prefer to use for searching, I would say you’re missing out if you don’t tap into Google as well.

    Those government topo maps are useful as well. I’ve downloaded a whole series of them from USGS. You can get a fairly precise idea of height and elevation gain, and sometimes there are things that may not appear elsewhere, such as the source of small creeks. Also, looking at different publication years can reveal changes to names and the deletion or addition of certain features. I think its worth pointing out to those who haven’t yet discovered them that they are free to download if you don’t need the paper copy.

    • I think the 3D modeling and satellite view of GE are also useful and examples of features a paper map doesn’t so easily exhibit/afford the viewer. I’ve made no secret of my belief that WWWH is some sort of turbulent waterway and it is a lot easier seeing examples of such on GE than any paper maps I have viewed.

    • topozone.com allows you to toggle between map, satellite, and classic USGS topo map views.

      You can also of course scroll around and zoom in and out. Incredibly useful, especially the USGS topo map view of any area.


    • Yes, you can get the UPDATED USGS maps for free…I have some old ones…things change. But yes I enjoy GE for the ability to look at an area’s elevation…of course just plain Google Maps is good as well…just gotta watch where place names get pinned…that seems all over the map so to speak.

  20. As a pilot, wouldn’t Forrest refer to coordinates in the degree/min/sec format rather than the decimal format?
    How many times throughout TTOTC does he reference time? The word ‘time’ itself as well as hours, minutes or seconds? It seems that sometimes he goes out of his way to even mention ‘time.’
    I believe that coordinates are important. He even mentions more than once that we should take a GPS while searching. Is that only to not get lost or to find the exact location where he hid the TC?
    GE displays coordinates in the degree/min/sec format. Perhaps that is why he suggests we use GE.
    Just food for thought.
    Good luck all.

      • Very good example covert one. People like you are the ones that forrest wants to give the chest to. Absolute kudos to you. Great job. Try hard and go find that treasure!

      • on Edit

        To encrypt a message, the agent would select words from the poem as the key. Every poem code message commenced with an indicator-group of five letters, which showed which five words of an agent’s poem had been used to encrypt the message.

        The words would be written sequentially, and their letters numbered to create a transposition key to encrypt a message. For example, if the words are YEO THOMAS IS A PAIN IN THE ARSE, then the transposition key is: 25 5 16, 23 8 17 13 1 20, 10 21, 2, 18 3 11 14, 12 15, 24 9 6, 4 19 22 7. These are the locations of the first appearances of A’s, B, etc. in the sentence.

        This defines a permutation which is used for encryption (25->1, 5->2 etc.). First, the plaintext message is arranged in columns. Then the columns are permuted, and then the rows are permuted.

        For example, the text “THE OPERATION TO DEMOLISH THE BUNKER IS TOMORROW AT ELEVEN” would be written on grid paper as:


        Wikipedia : poem code

          • That would be a different sort of encryption. I can’t tell you what it is, but I know it’s very different.

          • Hi Carol…et al….

            Does anyone know FF military call letters he used in the military?

          • Tim,

            Sorry for taking so long to respond. Is this what you are looking for?

            SB 152 – “I received this story from an old friend. We flew the happy fighter skies together in the 1960s when he was a major and I was a 1/Lt. His call sign was Black Bart and I was Comanche.”


          • Hi Pina. Thanks.

            What is odd….Charlie found an article with Litter 81….as a rescue call name for FF.

            I wonder if he changed names as he changed squadrons…..or new orders.

            Thanks again.

          • Call signs change(usually every day) that way the enemy has a harder time figuring out who’s who and setting an ambush based habitual patterns.

          • I agree KeΩΩ

            If I remember correctly, when I was attached to my US Navy squadron, the pilot’s nickname was painted under the cockpit, but call letters change every day.

            Litter 82. was probably the call letters of the day, versus “Commanche” was FF’s nickname he carried through his career in the AF.

          • KeΩΩ,

            That’s exactly what my brother told me a long time ago. He was a F-4 RIO and flew A-7s out of Korat during the Vietnam War. But he did have a nickname that followed him thru his AF/Navy flying career.

            I was simply responding to Tim’s question.


          • I wasn’t contesting what you said. I only wanted to put that information about call signs changing out there in case anyone was about to jump down a rabbit hole.


          • Mr. Tim-
            Canasta 404 was not Mr. F’s but IMO it is very important.

            “You might as well stay home and play Canasta”


          • Litter 81…Hum…seems appropriate.

            It seems “Litter” means……… the “den of a FOX!”

            Go figure..

      • Carol,
        Didn’t Forrest say no codes? However he did say Key……is this the same thing? Kinda? Or different?

        • I don’t know Lou, good question. Interesting though I was watching a documentary last night on Native American Indians and the word “Key” was used in reference to the Exact moment when the Summer Solstice marking an area on a stone face! Won’t that just be a brilliant use of the “Blaze” If you were not in the right area just when the sun was rising on Summer Solstice one would never find the “Blaze” Forrest never stops amazing me! He is one clever man!

          • Carol, again, see Bighorn medicine wheel. The summer solstice forms an “X” on the wheel. It’s support info for the place a bell is at. Also, the coordinates of the poem. “X”. IMO. It has nothing to do with solving “X”, just good support info. With his talk on bells, goes to figure that he probably buried a bell somewhere along the path to the chest. Ring it so his spirit will know kind of thing.

        • Lou Lee, he said codes will not help, BUT, they have been used in positive solutions.
          Take that as you will. She is right though Carol, the overwhelming thought on the matter of codes is that they will not help. If you are the type that sees code in everything, (the alphabet is considered a code), then maybe one can be used in a positive way.
          I think it is safe to say that codes, obvious ones, are not needed. Also, I think f would make it a little more difficult than the normal: A=1, B=2, C=3, D=4, E=5, etc…
          My opinion, he gave letter values, but his own values. It’s the basis of his number system. It’s in the poem, it’s just getting by the thought that there is no way because there is no “X”. I ‘ve found that the whole alphabet can be solved with number values, even “X”.
          Using substitution ciphers, letter frequencies, shift ciphers, etc…etc…etc… will not get you a solution. They are fun to play with though.

  21. Covert One,

    Your video on the import of Time can’t have been more appropriately timed than for my life. As I held my fathers hand while he took his last breath, what became so crystal clear is the misprioritizations (don’t believe that’s a word) in life – of time!

    I work a lot of overtime and my father worked right up until his illness beat him.

    No real golden years for him — no golden time for me or my children with him…

    I write Forrest often (he never writes back – I’m good with that) but when first discovering the idea of “The Gaze” in artwork, it immediately made me think of the quote by Fredrick Nietzsche, “… if thou gaze long into an abyss, the abyss will also gaze into thee.”

    I told Forrest his memoirs, poem & chase, were the antithesis to the Abyss and if taken in the proper dosages, an antidote to the miasma plaguing modern living and much of the common things on display to be valued.

    “Once Upon A While”, he gets its right — INDEED!

    When it comes to maps, if you are a serious searcher, then Google Earth is a must since it has tools that let you rapidly explore areas in terms of technical details: distances (in most measures), degrees, elevation & particularly the PATH tool with elevation profiles (which helps me plan). It even has a flight simulator for those who like to imagine Forrest scouting out his special place.

    However the USGS maps are also required since they provide a lot of detail not provided by Google Earth is crucial; like the names of roads, trails, creeks (draws or arroyo) and other details which aren’t major enough to be included in Google Maps. Garmin maps have this info as well and I would suggest pretty important to finding the final resting spot of Indulgence.

    Also these maps have another curious detail eluded to in these pages and that is the Public Land Survey System labeling.

    Lastly it’s Christmas time and we may or may not get six questions with Forrest this year so I’ll give you one of my “finds”:

    1) The word “Indulgence” is what Forrest calls the Treasure Chest and he has said in his books as well as in interviews that he finds having enough money is much better than having too much money (paraphrasing). This is because “over indulgence” causes things to become blasé: French for boring. Today our society is sick because we are over indulged and bored – the Treasure Chest & TToTC is his way of injecting wonder and the wildness back into us (for those willing to listen good)… Anyway bla·sé is pronounced: bläˈzā/ and so I think this is a clever pun for the Blaze.

    Clever, yes!

    Well here is something interesting: a “Blase” in German means “blister” or “bulla” which is a rounded prominence or in our case – potentially high water point.

    I believe Forrest would be familiar with this word because in archeology a Bulla refers to a special seal or an amulet worn like a locket, was given to male children in Ancient Rome nine days after birth – late Bronze Age.


    • As a side note to the above – The idea that Forrest has placed a special item in the chest just for the person who finds Indulgence has me working to predict what it is…

      I grew up playing Dungeons & Dragons and a part of me screams Oh No it’s booby-trapped!

      That would send me away laughing also…

      However I’ve come to believe it’s an Amulet of some type (Talisman). Perhaps an Ankh of Life from his time in Africa or a Roman Bulla with something inside the locket to boot – I know, now I’m getting greedy but he did originally have a $100,000 IOU in there but “found a better way” to know when someone discovered the Treasure.

      Maybe it does have some kind of “booby-trapped signaling device.”


      • I would love to know the story of how he owned one, since they weren’t circulated in the general public.

      • It is my belief that if you know “The word that is key” – you know what that special gift will be – I easily could be wrong though – JDA

        • Why a book… fenn seemed to remove anything that could be damage by moisture and made his autobiography small enough to fit in a olive jar { do you think he may have done the same with another book?}.
          If I had to throw an idea out it would be a limited print gold coin, designed by a friend… both shes might be happy when they see it.

          • Well Seeker, it’s not a quick to answer lol. In my hour of thoughts upon waking up, I compartmentalize the poem, ATF’s and the Q&A’s in my mind and try and see links. Getting past all aloof ideas, I deduced the saved item as being a book.

            Native Americans ancestors lived in harmony and respect of Mother Earth (Gaia). That is , to me, the “She” whom will be pleased-Gaia, not a human. IMO. The “See’s it” is , in my opinion, is something of in the Book. It’s a book of secrets where. 🙂 . Its the ” title to the gold” . The poem has no title but it’s in the book ,TTOTC. It pertains to the singularity of “gold” relative to treasures, trove and chest. There’s more items other than gold in the chest. So, the title to the…gold. is of what?A book?

            A book made of any material can be sheathed easily well and protected for eons.

            He did say “It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues”. I find it interesting he doesn’t mention finder of the chest but “solves the clues” .Then he continues ‘I think that person will be pleased when she sees it. f. So my takeaway of this, is the title of this (possible) book is the title of a special place on of earth – the secret where of or about gold or something made of gold .She is GAIA. IMO .

            A very important book of some kind. IMO. I can say more ideas but I think this is gist enough? Maybe?

          • Seeker—

            I think you were right a week or so back when you said it might be a pair of bronzed baby shoes. lol

          • Funny stuff Sparrow! When Seeker said that…my cartoon maker started…Fenn sure has given us plenty of pics of his shoes/slippers/boots/sneakers/zebra boots. I guess bronzed baby shoes could be.
            I have a sneaky suspicion that secret item is neither coin, book or shoes.

          • An imagination can lead to stranger things. IMO . I read what I see and deduce what it could possibly mean .

            “Oops, I forgot, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it”
            “Did you name the poem The Thrill of the Chase?” “No. I forgot to name it.”

            IMO . Scan it how ever you choose.

          • I think you can use the same olive jar where the autobiography it’s in as a magnifying glass. He thought of everything…

          • It’s an interesting concept, Tesla…
            Sparrow… you remembered I said that? Dang I barely remember…
            Charlie… I thought there is a antique magnifying glass in the chest, or at least there was talk about one.
            OZ10… You need water in the jar for that to work… just make sure you take the bio out first.

            Whatever is in the chest, imo wouldn’t shouldn’t help with locating it or help with the clues… By that Mike guy is a smart one… don’t ya think?!

          • It’s just a concept that really has no bearing on assisting in the chest location. If I only could have had the clues in the right order. 🙂 IMO.

          • Personally, I would like to read fenn’s bio from the chest… I’d have it decorated in its very own Gold Leaf book cover, and printed in bronzed color ink, shadowed in dark ink, with the original copy placed in glass, being displayed next to the chest.

            Then give my wife the biggest stone in the collection as a necklace.
            And replace my old clunker of a truck for a new 4X4.

            She’s an older model with a few dings and dents, the body is still in great shape, has a little less get up and go, yet still purrs like a kitten when you treat her right, and she has never let me down.
            But I really would like a new 4×4 truck too, because mine is a piece of crap.

          • I too am curious to read his autobiography. I wonder if he explains how he got the book lol. I have a new 4×4. I kept my other one untill it’s last breath and door handle- I couldn’t get it safety certified lol.

      • Can someone help me with the exact FF quote?
        The quote about something special hidden for someone who finds the treasure?

        • Here you go:
          ”Are there any objects placed in the Bronze Chest that are connected, or have meaning to the place the chest is hidden? ~ Mike
          No Mike, everything in the chest is straight forward and visual, except my autobiography, which some might find dull. Oops, I forgot, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues. I think that person will be pleased when she sees it.” F
          Hope this helps – JDA

          • I would guess a legal document that gives you clear “title” , and possibly a leg to stand on when the inevitable land owner representative tells you to hand it over to them.

      • Very funny GCG. It would be great if it had a booby trapped explosive brown ink dye.

        If I were to guess though I would say that the special thing is some sort of trust. When the person retrieved it then the institution would let Forrest or his kin know.

    • I think you maybe on to something there. They also refer to the rounded top of a dormant volcano as a bulla.

  22. I got my copy of “Once Upon A While” on Sunday and I have been reading a little for the last couple of nights. During this time I developed a code. But I bought some Nyquil which helped alleviate that a bit.

    I just wanted to say that the “Chase” is a load of fun. I’ve been at it for over a year now and I’m still excited. I have no idea where the dang thing is hidden—but I’ve sure learned a lot in my attempts to find it. I truly enjoy reading everyone’s ideas here. Thanks for keeping this blog going Dal—it’s a great place.

    • I so wish their was a like button ! Couldn’t agree with you more. The knowledge I have gained I would never have acquired if not for the Chase! Cheers Forrest Fenn and thank for the push of knowledge it self.

    • LOL…on curing your code problem.

      I keep telling my family “I love this poem….this poem is driving me crazy….”

    • Sparrow.
      I got my copy as well a month ago or so. I opened it up to the first page and that was it. Maybe someday, I will read it. I have been too busy just having a good day.

      I feel I planted a good seed the other day. A young lady came up to me needing a little help. She had no direction and hustling the streets. Gosh she was only 23 years old. I knew by looking into her eyes she needed someone to tell her something but she didn’t know it. I told her to listen to what I have to say. So I proceeded to give her a few words of encouragement. She looked down and quickly spoke my words to herself. Yes, she seen the blaze of hope. I have been thinking about her yesterday. I have this feeling her life is changing.

      • Hi Geydelkon…welcome….

        Giving just a smile can change the way another looks at like.

        Thank you for showingbotherscyou are AWARE and have chosen to share the awareness.

        We need more people in the world. Like you. We are the ones who can change it.

        Thank you.

  23. I am posting some geographic information which might be of interest to bloggers following this site. Below are two separate links to my Google Drive account. Copy and paste them one at a time into a Browser window and you should be able to view each file. One of these is a Word document with a Fenn treasure hunt visual map guide which I made for my own purpose as well as to assist other Searchers. Inside this document there are actually two maps: one is a map of the entire Rocky Mountains search area and the other is a more detailed version of Colorado/ N. New Mexico.
    The other file link is a jpeg image showing the extent of pinon (or pinyon) trees in the four state Rocky Mountains search area. Accept this for what it’s worth. If you think that Fenn truly slipped up in referring to the smell of pinon pines, then you might want to stop looking in Montana or Wyoming. However, if you suspect that this might be a bluff by Fenn, then feel free to ignore this bonus map.
    As a disclaimer, I am not responsible for inability of any subscribers to download or view these files.
    The links:



    • Dude!! thanks you for providing us with the fruits of your labor. I appreciate the thoughtfulness you put into it.

      The only part of your reasoning that I would disagree with would be about Wilderness areas.

      In my mind Wilderness areas are ideal places to hide treasure – low probability of logging/cows/other types of development that could disrupt or bring a worker into accidental contact with the treasure. So, if someone’s solve involves a designated wilderness area that is reasonably accessible to an 80 yr hiker and is within elevation limits then it may be worth some BOG exploration….

      • Agreed. But read the map explanation: Risky and Roadless. A treasure location had better be very close to the external boundary of a WA, otherwise an 80 year old hiker might have problems hauling the tc in.

  24. Posting this question here because I am new to being on a blog…..
    And, I know someone here can answer.
    Why are some people 3D people and others are colored quilts?
    When Forrest posts, is he 3D or a quilt?

    • I asked someone at work to verify—-and they said that yes indeed they did see me in 3D. No one said I looked like a colored quilt. As far as I can tell Forrest is 3D—though I’ve never met him personally—so really can’t confirm that for you.

    • Clearly Clueless, as Spallies states Forrest Fenn is a quilt, with sometimes “Forrest Fire” as his stated name and ff, FF, and many other pers. pronouns that he may conjure up… an image which is often, just a “fig” in our imagination….


  25. Ok – maybe this inquiry will help clarify some things for people:

    1) How many clues can be determined from the arm chair and what is meant by Forrest’s response on theory vs. practice?

    So this has been gone over and over but let me put the spot light on a few things:

    Forrest quote on the first question ends with – “a searcher will have to be in the field to retrieve the treasure.”

    What this could be saying is; Yes, most of the clues can be solved from home but ultimately the searcher who finds the treasure, will be in the field to complete the last couple steps. Further, Forrest uses the phrase “in practice.” This seems to suggest he expects searchers will require some fine tuning of their solve once on location and this also coincides with his comments that the person who does eventually find the treasure, won’t know for sure they have a “Correct Solve” until they actually leave with it.

    However, if we dig into this question a bit further though it could be misguided to wait until you have even 6 of the 9 clues “solved.” In reading the biography of General Schwarzkopf, he said a successful leader needs to take action with 35% of the knowledge, waiting until you have 65% is too late and often leaves victory in other hands.

    This point is made even more poignant by this statement of Forrest;
    “If a person reads the poem over and over…and are able to decipher the first few clues in the poem, they can find the treasure chest.”

    And then one of the most peculiar of his Questions & Answers ever:
    “You told a reporter that there are three or four clues in the second stanza. Were you telling the truth? ~Alison R
    FF; “I don’t know what it is about girls but when I say something they automatically ask if I’m lying. Shame on you Allison R. I promise you that I get more things right than most reporters. If you were here I would make you take a dose of castor oil. Besides, if I lied to the reporter what makes you think I would tell you the truth? Sorry Alison, I’m off my soap box now.”

    I don’t hear many people talk about this Q&A probably because it’s so convoluted but its examination is worth it because, it seems to suggest Alison is baiting him with a question based on a false or incorrect paraphrasing of some reporter interview. Regardless, it appears Forrest chose to answer the question anyway saying in effect that the “first few” clues are in Stanza #2 alone…

    If this is true then finding the Treasure is mostly a case of absolutely solving the Clues in Stanza #2 and most likely the correct solve of these first few clues will provide the searcher with a great degree of confidence…I know my solve did!!!

    And I will postulate that these quotes tell us why:
    “Although many have tried, I doubt that anyone will find the blaze before they have figured out the first clue. f ”
    “I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues.”
    “What surprises me is that so many ignore the first clue in the poem. Without IT … …all the searcher has is the memory of a nice vacation… … I doubt that anyone will find the blaze before they have figured out the first clue. f ”

    Notice the “IT” in the last quote – I’ll have to end by saying it seems highly likely the reason why a person will be confident and can find the treasure if only they have solved the 2nd Stanza is because the Blaze is also strongly determined from these lines…

    PS. If clue #1 gets you half way metaphorically the next couple get you perhaps 80% of the way —– just saying

    • GCG ~’ if we dig into this question a bit further though it could be misguided to wait until you have even 6 of the 9 clues “solved.”
      I see what your saying, but it still seems something missing. Fenn said “all of them, in theory” but not in practice. Logically this say all the “references” 1-9 can be deciphered at home and one just simply need to go get the chest for a ‘complete’ solve {“solve to be the completing the entire challenge, including the retrieval of the chest}

      But, very few, if any, ‘general solves’ I have read use the clue references. Is this whole thing just a walk in the park from point to point… or is there things needed to be understood about all the clues being “contiguous”? [joining, touching, neighboring, and yes..imo… utilized in some fashion].

      Good thoughts… this is exactly what we’re supposed to be doing, anal-o-gizing all those WhatIFs

    • GCG, good write up. Nice thinking but I have one of your points that I feel might be a little off.

      You said…”I’ll have to end by saying it seems highly likely the reason why a person will be confident and can find the treasure if only they have solved the 2nd Stanza is because the Blaze is also strongly determined from these lines”…

      I posted a couple of days ago on the Blaze thread that I think that the blaze cannot be determined from the lines in the poem that are clues 1-8. This would include what you wrote about (the second stanza). This is beacause of what f has given us as the definition of a clue in the Chase. F tells us the definition of a clue is something that’s gets one closer to the tc.

      If the blaze was described to us in stanza two an example of that would be in the line that describes clue 3. Clue 3 can only give us information that helps us get closer to the tc than clue 2. Accordingly, clue 3 can’t get us closer to the tc than clue 4. So, my thinking is that clue 3 can’t do that exactly that (keep us on the right path between clue 2 and 4 and also give us the blaze information which is a much later clue in the poem. It would go against f’s own definition of a clue. I think searchers need to understand f’s definition of a clue and keep it at the forefront of their scope.

      This is why imo the blaze is described to us in the first stanza. I think it reinforces the 2 quotes from f that you posted once analyzed…this is because many feel that the answer to the correct wwwh is from the first stanza. Since it seems the first stanza isn’t a clue it doesn’t need to follow the definition of a clue.

      “Although many have tried, I doubt that anyone will find the blaze before they have figured out the first clue. f ”
      “I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues.”

      • Fun D….
        Your comment here implies a similar thought that I posted just down thread. My example eliminates any clue past the first clue(maybe first two) because I believe that too much emphasis is wasted on later clues. I say this because of the ATF from Fenn that allude to nothing past the first two…maybe four…even matters at this juncture in the Chase. Keeping it basic/simple seems prudent.
        I do believe that you have the correct read on the order of clues and the purpose of, one gets you closer to the treasure and so forth…in progression.
        I also believe that the “Poem” does give all of the info. necessary to be successful…and that the “blaze” is incorporated in the wording of the poem. Until I feel confident about the preceding clues, and the correct order, I am not going to even try to predict what it(the blaze) is. I have a couple of ideas…but I think the first 1/2 clues are going to open the correct door/s.
        Nice clear post and thanks.

      • Fundamental,

        The Blaze is where Forrest has said searchers concentrate too much energy because the earlier clues are so much more important.

        My previous post might have been better served if I hadn’t thrown in any comments about the Blaze at all…

        But I have posted elsewhere in this Forum about the Mystery of the Poems circular nature and that according to my solve the clues are ‘progressive’ as well as consecutive and once a clue is clearly understood it can serve not only its initial purpose but a later purpose as well…This still allows each clue to continue to moving the search forward and it also would explain why Forrest can say Stanza #2 has 3 or 4 clues.

        One last thought – Has anyone here ever heard the expression of “Blazing a Target” or to blaze a target/objective?


  26. P.S.S. Forrest says over and over people seem preoccupied with later clues without having nailed down WWWH – This seems to suggest that most people (including myself) who think they have WWWH are wrong…

    IF this is true, then dwelling on the last 3 maybe a very academic discussion.

    • What’s really odd … is the few searchers who WERE in TIGHT FOCUS, still haven’t found the treasure even though Forrest thought it was possible they might, or since some had discovered the key word so soon in the Chase others surely would!!!

      The only thing which makes sense here to me, is those few may have been sharing their breakdowns of his clues with Forrest and were getting close to the correct interpretation but NEVER quite made it…Otherwise wouldn’t they have been going every year in confidence circling closer and closer until they eventually found the chest???

      • GCG…Nice ideas and definitely worth rehashing these points again. These comments were made years ago and did bring forth many threads. Again…Fenn has said that he looks for key words when looking at emails from searchers. He has also stated repeatedly that even though folks were close…they didn’t even know it. Combining those two thoughts always makes me pause right there.
        Seeker also repeatedly infers that we are missing something in our method of reading/interpreting the poem. Forget the clues following the first two…even the second one…and there we have it. The first clue seems to be the stumbling block…as you also referenced.
        How is that possible? That folks wrote Fenn their ideas…and walked him through their thoughts…and he identified key words that led him to state what he has….and the searchers did not know what they were saying?
        One of my theories is that the clues are all very closely tied to one another and in a relatively confined area. His wording in the poem seems on the surface to indicate a possible long spread out area.
        Take the word “down” for example. Let’s say that a searcher has arrived at WWH, and let’s for example say that the searcher arrived there from a southern approach. The canyon there runs W to E…and let’s say that it(the canyon) basically begins right there.
        Does “canyon down” really mean go in a southerly direction, or downward? Even if this canyon rises in elevation would it not be an indicator that the ” correct” definition of down would be…to enter/ go in/pass through? Most searchers seem fixated on the idea that the canyon must run N-S, or decrease in elevation and thus could be why everyone has passed on by?
        This is my newest approach to the dilemma. I hope it helps someone…

        • Another example of the canyon “down”…could also be reversed around.
          Let’s say the searcher knows for sure wwh and arrives from the North. Low and behold…there’s the canyon. Just because it(the canyon) travels East to West…or west to east…does that mean it absolutely has to be incorrect?

      • GCG Another possibilty is perhaps that person emailed Forrest the correct key word but that person doesn’t know that and has not gone there to retrieve the TC.

      • KeΩΩ,
        That’s easy to say.. or repeat. But what does it mean?

        We have searchers who solved clues 1 and the second… but didn’t know. Searchers on site walking by the whole kit’nkaboodle and not recognizing anything.
        In a Q&A fenn said, if you know what HOB is why would you be concerned about wwwh…
        In an interview fenn stated if we knew what hoB we go right to the chest…

        Without attempting to make excuses for searcher making a wrong turn or something. And without saying something like, if you found hoB you had to get there by wwwh…

        How do you make that comment you posted to be true?
        What I’m asking is; reading these comments seems to imply that wwwh is null in void, if we can get hoB nailed down, right?
        Whether or not we have deciphered wwwh, canyon down, NFBTFTW or even if we have any idea of what stanza 1 might imply.

        My idea, and I would like to know yours and that is why I’m asking… my idea is; hoB might represent the correct wwwh. It might even represent/present all the clues. Which inadvertently make “put in below” hoB the location of wwwh. Which means, if correct, 99% of searcher are wandering about looking at all these different wwwh, and spread out all over the search area. My simple deduction/theory is that the poem contains the information… but many seem to dismiss the idea that one clue or more than one clue refer to a previous clue.

        So i’m curious to understand why later information in the poem would prove none productive? By saying that… do you imply that the clue for ‘wwwh reference’ must be in in stanza 1 only?

        Don’t get me wrong… the clues are told to be consecutive, but doe finding the information for the clues have to be? I would think, if so, stanza 5 and 6 are completely useless for anything involving clues.

        • Are you suggesting f. isn’t as brilliant as people think he is?

          “I wish I could have lived to do, the things I was attributed to”

      • Other Ken…
        What exactly are you referring to? Other than an open ended repeat of one of Fenn’s ATF?
        It is okay to let it hang out there and say exactly what you mean. Are you referring to what GCG brought to the table? Or are you referencing Fundy’s post, or Seeker’s, or mine, or Vox’s ?
        Just curious…

        • “It is okay to let it hang out there and say exactly what you mean”

          I don’t know; is it?

          BTW; what is an ATF?


          I wasn’t referencing anyone’s post(is that required), I was referencing what f. said.

        • O.K. I think I see what’s going on here.

          I’m replying to posts I get through my email, and they’re showing up somewhere on the forum that makes it difficult to ascertain what they’re in response to.

          I thought the forum would automatically quote what I’m replying to the way it quotes them in emails, but I guess it doesn’t.

  27. Hey guys I’m so sorry – I just reread that first post and the Q&A between Alison and Forrest was incomplete and I left off the most important part so here it is in its entirety (I know most of you know it but to be rigorous):

    You told a reporter that there are three or four clues in the second stanza. Were you telling the truth? ~Alison R
    I don’t know what it is about girls but when I say something they automatically ask if I’m lying. Shame on you Allison R. I promise you that I get more things right than most reporters. If you were here I would make you take a dose of castor oil. Besides, if I lied to the reporter what makes you think I would tell you the truth?
    Sorry Alison, I’m off my soap box now. No, I was not lying but I don’t remember a reporter asking me such a question.f

    To break this down just a bit to make the point even more clearly; Forrest prefaces is final answer with;
    “I promise you that I get more right than most reporters.”
    and then,
    “No, I was not lying”

    This is big! The next biggest thing to this is the Interview he did on TV regarding the legal ownership of the treasure when found. At the end of that Interview he seems just a bit agitated and IMO eliminates all National Parks from the possible search area…


    • GCG,
      The interview about stanza 2 and also 3 seems to say; each line has a clues. Stanza 2 was read and fenn responded ‘sound like 3 or 4 clue’… stanza 3’s last two lines read, and fenn responds ‘sound like a couple of clues’ [everyone should watch the video to make up there own minds of how it went down]
      As far as the first clue and confidence?… The clue has been told to fenn, but in fenn’s mind the searchers didn’t know they had solved it, nor the second clue. With out knowing… there is no confidence.
      The question is not about confidence at all, but more to why they didn’t know or ‘fully’ know about the first clue. It seems to me, just deciphering clue’s 1 “references” isn’t enough, and this might be why fenn is saying “nail down the first clue” it may have more to do then just knowing its a body of water, or something comfortable, or a snow cap mountain or any other idea.

      You said; ‘This seems to suggest that most people (including myself) who think they have WWWH are wrong’

      I don’t believe ‘wrong’ as much as ‘the wrong idea’… it’s possible that the searchers got things a bit backwards and misunderstood water high as wwwh… yet still, fenn would be able to say they solved clue 1, but the didn’t know it.
      fenn said [ at one point in this chase and I have not heard anything different yet ] [ paraphrasing] No one has given him clue in the correct order beyond clues 1 and 2.
      [ although fenn said once… someone might have solved clues 1 thru 4, but fenn himself is uncertain the did ] Could it be that many of the clues have been solved, and most everyone, have the correct clues mixed match?

      IMO, there is a very good possibility that the clues ‘references’ are being solved, but either the order is out of wack within the searchers ‘full solve’ [ example above ] or the searchers still didn’t completely understand why the clues are ‘what they are’… this leads me to think many WhatIF’s, however one of those thoughts relates to knowing of the poem containing 9 clue and not just clues in the poem… or… there is more to the wording in the poem [especially stanza 2] where the searchers all read it differently than fenn might have intended

      A simple example could be; “take it in” ~a searcher physically doing just that vs. take in it to be a viewing area for some reason… and not so much a wrong turn, or the next clue being harder to ‘find’… just a simple reading comprehension to the intent.

      End of commentary…

      • Seeker, you said:
        “The question is not about confidence at all, but more to why they didn’t know or ‘fully’ know about the first clue. It seems to me, just deciphering clue’s 1 “references” isn’t enough, and this might be why fenn is saying “nail down the first clue…”

        IMO, this has hit the nail on the head and pushed it right out the other side! And although it’s a comment that will probably get lost in the millions of words about the Chase, it should be lit up in neon by the side of the freeway! You can “know” where the first clue is, and start your journey from there, but until you FULLY know it, you’ll not be able to complete your search. I believe that’s one reason why FF has said “go back to the first clue.” Once you understand how to find your way in the poem, you can return to the first clue and understand it completely.

        As far as clues being related to FF in the wrong order, if you accept that you might need to reapply clues after you’ve completed your “first pass,” it’s possible that, even though you’re clue solutions are contiguous and correct, you may have applied a solution too early in the search.

        • Vox,
          I get what you’re saying about reapplying and first pass. But I don’t thin it’s necessary to have to physically travel anyone’s full solve more than once. You make it sound like botg is a must do multiple time as the intended way to solve the poem. While it’s not unreasonable to give it a go, so to speak, I think this is the problem to why searchers are so close… but walk by everything.

          It doesn’t matter how many times a searcher walks by all the clues or even if the have some correct… I think there is much more than just being there stomping. LOL what that exactly is, I’m not sure, but fenn tells us to go back to the poem… so the answer is there, and not so much in the field.

          But don’t get me wrong… I think “field work” is needed… even imagination in the field. But we should know what to expect, look for, and do, prior to leaving home. IF then we screwed up a solve, imo, it’s more likely we didn’t have it right / correct beforehand.
          Although, it would be nice to drop everything and just go out and explore on a whim… but I think the design of the poem eliminates the “need” for that.

          • Don’t misunderstand me, Seeker, I don’t think you need to go over the same ground twice in a physical sense. And you don’t need to return physically to Clue One; you just need to understand it completely. But what I am saying is that the clues are recycled while you keep going.

            It’s also a waste of resources to go out on a whim. But unfortunately, you can’t be sure that you have a complete solution until you’ve gone to the “end” of your solve. If you find the chest there, well, end of story, but if you don’t find it, but instead discover something else, that’s where the recycling comes in (and it may be gnlicycer). You can’t escape BOTG before you retrieve the chest.

          • I think this is where we differ… Your saying, find something else, on site.
            I’m saying we shouldn’t need to. All the information to find the chest is in the poem, we have been told.

            For me it’s not about finding anything new… and more about what it is, or might need to be done, as we “follow” the clue’s “references” … that’s more in lines with the thought of “following instructions” vs. directions.

            Fenn is making us work… but the work is more thinking than doing… we’ve been told that.
            My point is; we shouldn’t need to find anything. We should have figured out prior… hence fenn’s warnings;
            “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f
            “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve. ff ”

            The second comment is not so much a ‘warning’ in the traditional sense, as it seems to be something important to know about, beforehand as well. [ “Warning” in both cases means, to be alerted to, beforehand. ]
            The first comment to me means, warning don’t go until you have it nailed down or your just wasting your time. And again, we should be alerted to what and why of this location, beforehand.

            I see no reason for multiple searchers IF, big IF, a searcher can correctly understand the poem’s [ for lack of a better term ] “needs” – in theory.

            Well, that’s might be a white lie… you see… I have a thought that it is possible that there might be one need for multiple trips… but not so much to find something new… but to work out the final design of the poem ~ basically saying building the poem on site… because the map might be on site as well.
            Can this be done at home? For someone smarter than me, sure. But I’m a hands/tangible on guy, and would need to see it play out for myself.
            And one reason fenn tells us to look at the Big Picture, and think down the road, and the chest won’t be found on a Sunday picnic or Spring break.

            If I can’t resolve the ATF comments to meet what the poem might be telling us… I’m staying home, till that is done.

          • Thank you Seeker. You just stated something that makes me think I have something good.

            “I have a thought that it is possible that there might be one need for multiple trips… but not so much to find something new… but to work out the final design of the poem ~ basically saying building the poem on site… because the map might be on site as well.”

            I agree – one needs to be on-site in order to fine tune the details…..trial and error send to be a requirement.

            What you stated….the map is on-site….is a great way to look at it….that could be the “good map” everyone is looking for.

            Funny in that you mention that, I found a map, while insite in my search area…..and it does give me a boost of confidence to what it holds…..but 39th you staying what you did, and I found this one….it makes me wonder if you actually have stated something important.



        • Vox…Your point is certainly understandable on all levels…in this posting. When I read it with your last few postings in mind…it gets fuzzy. In one of your last, you have indicated that while searching/interpreting/acting out the clues…there comes a point when the clues/info is basically used up and you/the searcher are on your own to figure out the rest….using what has been revealed/learned from the nine clues. This is where I don’t understand. Are you still thinking this in this post? Just trying to get it…

          • LOL ken, eerr me too.
            I’m not knocking Vox for going and exploring/searching… But he seems to think searching to look for things on site are not in the poem. That doesn’t make sense to me either.
            Well,maybe what doesn’t make sense is Vox finds to be more exact. I don’t see, well basically, how trash can be considered directional pointers for clues. An old piece of a tire with a particular pointing object, or an old propane tank or broke pieces of a vase or bowl or something… or especially needing to take a picture and invert it upon itself to reveal something.

            IMO, the only thing you’re going to find at the end of that trail is a hobo or very messy campers.

            I think, and of course I can be completely wrong, that many searchers think “certainty of the location/path” only means the first clue. Which gives the idea of needing to be on site to find other things not in the poem.

    • IMO, a lot of people interpret what f. said in a way that supports what they think. So we end hearing reporters and searchers asking him the same questions over and over trying to nail down what he actually meant; it’s no wonder he seemed agitated.

      • I believe…other Ken…that folks here…some of them anyways, are trying to discuss exactly what everyone is doing wrong, or not doing at all. I think this mainly involves deciphering/interpreting the poem as well as the ATF that Fenn has provided. This primarily boils down to figuring out the way/s Fenn utilizes words…and what he considers the definition of those words at the time.
        The pattern I am/have been seeing is his insistence to twist/bend the rules in every day speech amongst one another.
        I agree to some extent that searchers (including myself) at times see what is convenient…but believe me…I see many attempts here on Dal’s site where folks are trying to get past that and work things out.
        I do not get the sense at all the Forrest Fenn is agitated by how he has fooled everyone up to this point! In fact…as he should be…I believe he is proud of it…and only slightly troubled by folks who insist on contacting him with foolish requests.

        • I didn’t say “Forrest Fenn is agitated by how he has fooled everyone up to this point!”. You said that, not me.

          I said he’s likely agitated, because people keep asking him the same questions over and over as if they don’t believe him. He’s a pretty straight forward guy f., so if people aren’t listening to what he tells them he’s going to restate it in a way that makes it clear. Perhaps that is what you considered to be agitation on his part.

          • Don’t twist what I said… another perfect example of not seeing what is said vs. what is convenient for arguments sake. Fenn is proud of what he has offered us and how well he has executed the Chase. What makes you think he is agitated? He seems perfectly content to me.
            I do not think folks ask the “same” questions because they do not believe him…I think it may be more that folks do not understand how he thinks about certain things. Especially this Chase of his. If folks did understand more…maybe some better questions might appear.
            It’s all good…

          • I honestly think you’re a case of the pot calling the kettle black.

            So why don’t you stop this nonsense?

        • Ken – I can relate to what you are saying here. I have been using my keyword to verify ATF’s and so far each and every one I have applied it to checks out/balances. That is not saying that this “keyword verification process” is at all easy—it does involve some deep thinking logic, which is what led me to the keyword in the first place. The result is that I am starting to get a grasp of FF’s cleverness in his ATF’s, which I am hoping is leading to a recognition of his thought processes and eventually to that other “Aha chase moment” needed to get me BOTG.

          • Bow…Fenn has said that folks do not see things the way he does…go figure. Truthfully…that is about all we really have…check and balance and check it again before moving on. Just about everything he has offered up( which is monumental) is on the table for dinner. There are a few items I personally wouldn’t stick my fork in…but that’s entirely up those seated at the table. Bon appetite !
            As a side note…I personally had a ceremonial burning of all my notes a while back…sticky notes, files, you name it. It feels good to feel clean. The good stuff is etched in real good…the rest…history.
            Somewhere around “down” and NFBTFTW there’s a tripwire…

          • Hi Ken….

            IMO – bad mistake with the circular file fire.

            Brainstorming ideas have always given me the help needs to overcome obtacles.

            But I do agree, starting fresh can be exhilarating….I did it with a bankruptcy the same year I had cancer….on my birthday of all days.

            Talk about synchronicity!!

            After my cancer in 1995…I vowed to live on the edge and create my life the way I choose to.

            I’ve never regretted it and now live in the moment….as I also suspect FF does now too.

            Good luck.

      • KeΩΩ,
        I don’t see fenn agitated… at least from where I’m sitting. But if he is a little annoyed at all the repetitiveness, he put himself in that position. Fenn choice to be very involved with his project… it’s only natural folks are going to ask question, bark for more bones to be thrown, beg for a treat… fenn could have easily sat on the side lines and watch it all unfold. Then there would be no Q&A’s, Interview, or even this blog with as many bloggers yacking about this and that, because this and that wouldn’t have been known of… If Mr. Fenn wasn’t so involved.

        LOL… I’m kinda surprised he hasn’t gone back to the hide and swallowed a bottle of pills just to get a way from it all. However, he seems to me, to be enjoying 93% of the folks he has influenced, because of his challenge.
        I guess we just need to figure out whether each of us falls into that 93% or the other 7%…

    • Thanks for laying this out for us. I’ve read this before but there are more than a few new searchers here, GCG you explained it well.
      I’m up a creek without a paddle! Lol…now figure that one out!

      • LL
        that’s a good place to be…”up a creek without a paddle”
        You are very well on your way!

        • It’s funny this old saying. Forrest used it in reverse. What does it mean to You? Growing up if my family said it, it meant your not getting anywhere fast. Something like this. This is one of the more thought provoking sayings in the poem.

          • I’ve always interpreted “up the creek without a paddle” as being stuck or being in a place where a paddle would come in handy, but not having one.

            In the poem though, I interpret it to mean I won’t need a paddle to go up this creek or it means to go down the creek instead. “water high”

            Then there’s the other solve that completely eliminates that one.
            ( Ω|Ω)

  28. Does anyone find it odd that FF used first two letter Ls in the first Alison but only one in the second? I wonder because doubled letters played a role in a previous solution of mine that tied into the Golfing Hiccup story.

  29. Ken and Seeker, I know that because I’m only giving you part of the story it doesn’t make complete sense.

    Firstly, I’m not going on site in order to find something (other than the chest), I’m going to the places that the poem tells me to go – within a few feet. More often than not there is something there. Sometimes it’s a physical object, and sometimes it’s something relevant revealed via Google’s satellite images. What I find usually has to be understood before being able to move forward. And when you find something in a “field of nothing” you have to work out whether it’s telling you, “yes, you’re on track,” or “no, that’s the right idea, but you haven’t fully understood it yet.”

    These hints are subtle and easily ignored/passed by. The average hiker, or even a searcher who doesn’t know why they’re at that spot, will probably completely ignore the item. So “trash” that subtly fits a line in the poem and/or a SB hint is expected. (I’ve already stated that I don’t know for sure whether the gas cylinder is a Fenn clue, but it fits what comes next. On the other hand, I’m absolutely certain that the triangle of rocks is from Fenn, and it gave me a huge amount of info.)

    Online shapes that are symbols from the Chase perform a similar job, but probably have greater longevity, and are usually confirmatory and instructional.

    Secondly, this doesn’t contradict what I said about needing to “fly solo” once you get to a certain point. After you work out what “in the wood” means for the place you find yourself, that allows you to adjust to the start of your “solo” mission. From there, until you find the blaze, it’s up to you to use what you’ve already discovered to think your way forward. From FF’s point of view, this makes sure that only those who have solved the clues will know how to progress. Then, when you’re at the blaze, you need to reapply clues you’ve already solved, but in a different way. Then, you’re on your own again through to the end, with only logic, imagination and a few on-the-ground hints to guide you.

    I don’t expect many to understand what I’m talking about – particularly not until you’ve experienced it for yourself. I should point out that only one of the discovered items is no longer where I found it…

  30. GCG,

    I am so very sorry about the loss of your father. Parents and siblings are especially hard. At times like this I try to focus on childhood memories.

    So perhaps the key word of the day is to give your dad “thanks” for the memories.


      • Thank you ken.

        You know besides our good looks () we have something else in common. My dad’s name was Kenneth as was an uncle on mom’s side. But dad was a Teamster and his nickname at work was Mac, a headnod to our family name and European heritage. And I say “Thanks” to him and mom everyday.


      • Thanks guys – my father loved this treasure hunt…

        I secretly wanted to find it to make him proud as well…

  31. I didn’t know where to post this question: please let me know if there’s a better spot for it.

    If the finder of the box wanted to stay completely anonymous (no name shared, no interviews, etc.): **Are there ways to prove to the general public’s satisfaction that Mr. Fenn had no part in the discovery?**

    My guess is that when Mr. Fenn or his family makes an announcement that the box is found, many will suspect (and some may accuse) him of either:
    – collusion: the discoverer was a relative/friend
    – scam-artistry: he created an elaborate hoax; in other words – he never hid the box and now someone is “pretending” to have found it.

    The only thing I’ve come up with that might mitigate negative speculation is for the discoverer to share their “solve” with someone who’s trusted in this community. Any other ideas?

    • Good question; Some on here have stated that f. said there was something extra in the chest for the person who finds it, maybe it’s a RPTD(Real Property Transfer Declaration) or something of that nature that makes it legal for the finder to retrieve the treasure and carry it out as it is a legal transfer of property from one person to another.

    • Quiet,
      Not only could you use someone trusted in this community but it might even be better to use someone in the press (or say even Doug Preston as a witness simultaneously) that is widely trusted by the masses.

      Just do one anonymous interview providing the requisite proof.


  32. Hi All — a couple weeks ago I mentioned that I was putting together a checklist of tests that searchers could try applying to their solutions. I’m sure I’ve left out some good ones (so feel free to append!), and I’m also quite sure that many searchers will not agree with some of these, though I have made an honest effort to make them 100% consistent with statements Forrest has made over the years. But I’m not infallible, and so I welcome any corrections or adjustments. So here we go:

    First, the “Rookie Mistakes”:

    In your solution, is the chest:
    1. Outside of New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming and Montana?
    2. Less than 66,000 links (8.25 miles) north of Santa Fe?
    3. Below 5,000’ in elevation or above 10,200’ in elevation?
    4. In a mine?
    5. In a cave?
    6. In a graveyard or cemetery?
    7. Submerged under water?
    8. In a tree?
    9. In a desert?
    10. On top of a mountain?
    11. Near, under, or associated with a manmade structure?
    12. Near the Rio Grande River?
    13. Near a human trail?
    14. More than a 90-minute one-way walk from where you park?
    15. In dangerous terrain or a dangerous location?
    16. In a location that requires climbing up or down a steep precipice?
    17. In a location where you can’t see trees or mountains?
    18. In a location where you won’t smell pine needles or sagebrush?
    19. On private land or tribal land?
    If the answer to any of these questions is Yes, you need a new solution.

    More Advanced Tests:

    20. Is your first clue something other than WWWH?
    21. Are any of your nine clues in the first stanza?
    22. Is your home of Brown a manmade structure?
    23. Is your WWWH a dam?
    24. Do the solutions to more than four of your clues refer to places that did not exist when Forrest was a kid?
    25. Is your solution to “where warm waters halt” the Continental Divide?
    26. Is your solution to “where warm waters halt” all of Yellowstone?
    27. Does your solution depend on knowledge of U.S. history?
    28. Does your solution depend on any specialized knowledge?
    29. Is your WWWH determinable using only “Begin it where warm waters halt” and Forrest’s statement that the chest is hidden “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”?
    30. Does your solution involve “switching back” or “making a loop”?
    31. In your solution, is it likely that anyone would pick your blaze if they had not first found your WWWH?
    32. Could a 3-year-old child walk to your treasure location without assistance?
    33. Does your solution depend on solving a cryptographic cipher?
    34. Does your solution depend on ANY information not found in the poem?
    35. Does your solution depend on the placement of commas in the poem?
    36. Is it “feasible to try” removing your blaze?
    37. Could all of your clues, at least in theory, be solved from home without ever putting boots on the ground?
    38. Is it likely the treasure chest would be wet if it was hidden in your location?
    39. If a searcher solved your first two clues, but not your third or fourth, would they go right past the treasure chest?
    40. Can your blaze be described as a single object?
    41. Is it reasonable to conclude that “lots of people” have been within 500 feet of your treasure chest location?
    42. Is your treasure chest location in a spot that searchers are less likely to approach within 200 feet than within 500 feet? In other words, is there a specific reason that only a fraction of those that come within 500 feet would also come within 200 feet?
    43. Is it possible for people to arrive at your WWWH without having any idea of its significance?

    If the answer to any of questions 20-36 is “Yes,” or any of questions 37-43 is “No,” you probably need at least an adjustment to your solution.

    • That’s actually a pretty good list, although I can’t agree with all of it, if I had time I’d want to ask you about how you came up with several of the items on there; however, I don’t have time right now, but I’m wondering about number 39.

      39. If a searcher solved your first two clues, but not your third or fourth, would they go right past the treasure chest?

      Wouldn’t have to be psychic to know that? I mean they could solve the first 2 clues or even the 3rd and 4th and 5th and so on and still go past the chest. They could solve all the clues and perhaps not be able to locate it due to it’s being camouflaged somehow, so it would be very easy to say yes or no to that question without ever knowing for sure. At best I think it’s inconclusive.

      • Hi KeΩΩ: I agree that I need better wording on #39. What I’m trying to capture here is Forrest’s oft-stated remarks about how people solved the first two clues, but by failing to solve the third or beyond they went “right on by the chest.”

        Perhaps a better question would be: “For searchers that solve your first two clues, is there something unusual or tricky about your third clue that would cause most of them to miss it?”

        • Yeah, that, IMO, boils down to one of two things or both things probably.

          1. The failed to recognize the next clue.
          2. They already had the next clue figured out(wrongly).

          It’s like they said “O.K. here’s wwwh, and here’s HoB”(correctly), then they said “Now we have to continue to clue #3, and we know where that is don’t we”? Then they walked right past clue 3 on the way to *their* clue 3.

          • For me clue #1 = wwwh
            Clue #2 = canyon down
            So the missed clue is the hoB – I can see where many people could miss this one, not recognizing it for what it is, and going right past it. My meek place could also be very easily missed for being what it is.

            So either way, yes, it is easy to see how people could just walk (or drive) right past it and miss all of the others too. JDA

          • O.K. I found where f. talked about the different land types and the laws regarding things found there HERE

            In this interview f. neither confirms nor denies the chest being on National Park lands, private property, or “INDIAN LAND”.

            I’m still waiting for a reply from the New Mexican reporter.

          • Well for whatever reason the link takes you to a different video, the correct on should be in the list on the right. Scroll through till you find the one titled “Who does the treasure belong to” or something to that effect.

          • KeΩΩ
            Put in below home of Brown is either the 3rd or 4th clue…

            Clue #1 WWWH
            Clue #2 either ITCD or NFBTFTW or ITCD & NFBTFTW combined


          • Kenn;
            If hoB is not a clue, then why did Forrest say that if it were known, you could go right to the chest (paraphrasing) – JDA

          • KeΩΩ ~’“Who’s the rightful owner of a found treasure”? is the title you’re looking for.

            Yep, we know fenn said; what if there’s no legal questions… but wouldn’t it be more important about where the chest is hidden at, prior to any legal questions… the location may answer this legality without the poem holding anything.

            The reason I say this is; If a reader reads into the legal aspect with word in the poem [ simply guessing that is all it means] … could they be misinterpreting what might be important information about ‘how to “find” the chest’?

            Like I said; we’ve known for a long time that fenn consulted and thought about the legal side of all this before he hid the chest… so if there’s no questions about that… why would the poem need it, line of thinking.

            Possible yes, probable? maybe. but thinking any part of the poem interpreted only for that reason, might not be a good line of thinking.. fenn seemed to resolved the legal questions, prior to acting out the plan.

            But I do keep an open mind of the possibility. I just don’t dismiss anything that could get me closer, because of a chance there must be some legal statement in a poem that no court in the world would consider.

            It is, after all, a poem designed for interpretation and a challenge, not a last will and testament.

            Just saying……

          • Hi Seeker.

            IMO – legal issues prior to hiding was a step this generous man took.


            Think out the whole picture.
            – whomever finds it, “worry will be left behind” – paraphrased from FF.

            This tells me, he has handled the legal issues he could think of. Granted, he probably didn’t think about international crossing of the TC, BUT, I do think domestically, he did.

            The undisclosed ‘surprise’, could be a business card to a specific attorney, to finalize the paperwork, AND also the way FF knows someone has found the chest.

            I have a location and it is not on private or tribal land if it helps. As you can see, I have now reduced, drastically, my legal issues.

            If I were to remove NPs, that would also reduce my legal troubles a bit more.

            Is it a fair “assumption” with imagination involved? I think so.

            Sheez…the man eats to give away a treasure trove!! Kindness would ensure a complete package of what is being given….no loose ends.

            So you honestly think FF wants to go to court?

            I’ve always like this conversation I may use one day….
            GOVT: Sir, did you find this treasure?
            Me: Yes.
            Govt: Where?
            Me: in the RMs
            G: specifically?
            Me: I can’t tell you that.
            G: Why?
            Me: it’s a secret
            G: Sir, you will have to report it
            Me: only when I dilute it to cash will that be required.
            Govt: Sir, if it is on a certain land it doesn’t Belong to you yet.
            Me: correct. Until you can prove where I found it, then I think you should get a warrant for any more questions.


            Thus, I think FF took care of this scenario, and many others…. therefore, this trove will be free and clear of most obstacles it could face in law for transfer to the new owner.

            Best of luck to you and be safe out there.


          • I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again; the phrase “I give you title to the gold” says a lot. He’s saying I put it there for you to find and if you find it then I’ll give it to you. That’s a legal contract. No different from saying I’m going to the bridge over the Madison river at the junction of the Firehole River and the Madison River with a chest full of treasure, if you’ll meet me there I’ll give it to you, but don’t tell anyone about it, because some wiseacre will claim they have rights to it for one reason or another.

          • **** KeΩΩ claims – “I’ve said this before and I’ll say it again; the phrase “I give you title to the gold” says a lot. He’s saying I put it there for you to find and if you find it then I’ll give it to you. That’s a legal contract.” ****

            Any possible legal contract in the poem reads “IF you are brave and in the wood (THEN) I give you title to the gold.”

            I have a copy of that same contract here in front of me. And with me here are three witnesses ready to swear that I am brave and in the wood.

            My lawyer’s pretty sure that just taking the chest and going in peace will trump any attempt (or need) to enforce that weakly worded contract.

            In fact, she recommends that right after the taking of, and the going with, the chest, the taker and finder thereof discard all copies of, and disavow any knowledge of, the poem.


          • I’m thinking there’s a copy of the contract in the chest, or maybe just a cell phone and f.’s number.

        • zap wrote”
          “For searchers that solve your first two clues, is there something unusual or tricky about your third clue that would cause most of them to miss it?”
          Yes, that’s much better.

          Your questions 41 and 42 are too literal. Why couldn’t Fenn have simply meant that searchers have been within few hundred feet … Why hold him to precisely 200 feet or 500 feet? And Q 42 is so convoluted, I skipped over it.

          Overall, a good list.

          Ken (in Texas)

          • Hi Ken: Forrest has thrown the 500-foot number around a lot, but since it’s a “round number” I agree that we shouldn’t hold him precisely to that number. The point is that he does make a clear distinction between the 500-footers and the 200-footers. And he has made at least one statement that suggests the 200-foot number is not far from the truth. On 5/18/2017: “How do you know searchers have been within 200 feet of the treasure?” Forrest’s reply (my transcript):

            “Well, because there … people have told me exactly where they were, and that’s the only reason I know. And, and, that 200 feet I think is pretty accurate. But there weren’t very many people within 200 … lots of people within 500 feet of the treasure. But, uh, the people that were with(in) 200 feet didn’t know that they were that close to the treasure, and they walked right on by.”

    • Zap. Thanks for compiling your list. That took some major effort! It’s amazing how much thought and study is involving in this chase .

    • Zap; has f. ever said the chest is not on tribal land?

      I recall him saying something to effect of (paraphrasing)if it’s on tribal lands then it gets even more complicated.

      I’ve never heard him actually deny it being on tribal lands though.

      19. On private land or tribal land?

      • Hi KeΩΩ: on the question of tribal land, the writer of this article claims Forrest said the treasure is not on tribal land, though I admit it is not a direct quote:


        “And Fenn has cautioned searchers against trespassing on private or tribal land and cemeteries, saying the treasure is not hidden there.”

        • You’re referring to this line
          ” Fenn has cautioned searchers against trespassing on private or tribal land and cemeteries, saying the treasure is not hidden there”.

          The reporter wrote that in his article; however, I can not find anywhere that f. actually said the chest is not on tribal lands. The reporter left his email at the bottom of the page, I might email him and ask him to quote his source.

        • From the “I spent a bunch of money with a lawyer . . .” interview (CBS Sunday Morning 7/12/2015:

          “If you find it on Indian land it really gets complicated.” ff


          • TnE podcast,
            Q~ Reservations or what nots, do you ever get worried about Indian spirits or removing some of this stuff, it might bring a bad juju on you?
            A~ well I’m not worried about that. But you should not take things off Indian reservations.

          • And good luck trying to mosey around, just for example, on Sleeping Ute Mountain, or in the Ute Tribal Park. Or the extensive backcountry of Mesa Verde NP, reportedly monitored by motion detectors to ward off pothunters.

            Of all the odd ways searchers have got themselves in trouble, I’m really surprised we haven’t heard of anyone being picked up by tribal police. I bet it would only have to happen once for that question to get clarified real quick.

            Unless of course it was FF’s intent to return the bracelet to whence it came from (metaphorically speaking).


          • Hello J A Kraven. Visited Mesa Verde and stepped out of the vehicle and walked several feet away to take photos of the wild horses, when an officer stopped and told those of us taking the photos to get back in our vehicles because it wasn’t allowed to be on the grounds. Vehicles had to stay on the paved roads. I was surprised and had no idea that it wasn’t like being in Rocky Mountain National Park. I had never been there before and didn’t know. To return the bracelet from whence it came? I honestly don’t know if that would be possible.

      • Hi Windsurfer: on Imagination, I don’t know that I could come up with a question that everyone wouldn’t answer the same way. For instance, “Does your solution involve some imagination?” is going to be answered “Yes” by everyone because it’s so subjective.

        • Thanks Zap,

          my only point is that imagination can make some of Your Yes answers become No and your No answers become Yes. So it is really difficulty to know what Mr. Fenn had in mind with some of the ATFs. Where was his imagination at when he said things. I also think it is better to attribute things to Mr. Fenn that he has written down and not simply stated. For example I could verbally tell you and you think you hear that I have an Asian counselor helping me, but if I write it down, what I would write is that I have an Ancient counselor helping me.

    • In some way, could this list be misleading to some searchers?
      Zap, this is a lot of work and you did a good job.
      It just seems like some of these might be subject to original context.
      It seems like Mr. Forrest likes to play with words and we need to remember that when we make lists.
      And, yes, I read your disclaimer…..
      I have no corrections.
      I have studied the poem so much more than I have read Mr. Forrest’s quotes.
      I am now starting to read more in the blog and it’s past.

    • Ha! Zap, I’m unto you… You should have come out and say it. Does your solve takes you more than 500 feet from where you park your car? I know that you want that to be so, who knows, maybe you are right and we were fooled.

      I understand that you and others believe that ff was giving a maximum distance and not a minimum. But his comment about walking less than a few miles that day, and the fact that he did two trips because the weight speaks for itself. You cannot possibly think that ff can’t carry 42 pounds for 500 feet.

      Other than that, awesome job and thanks.

      • Hi Oz10: keep in mind that just because searchers might get within 500 feet (or 200 feet) of the treasure chest as the crow flies doesn’t mean they won’t have to walk quite a bit further than that to physically get there.

    • Disagree with number 14 Zap. And that’s it. That question should be taken out for the simple fact of:
      “A polite-like email from Kristie, who admits to being a desk person, prompts me to say that if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking too far. F
      This can be seen as the searcher needing to walk “long distances”.
      If you are basing that time of 90 minutes because of the 2 trips/one afternoon comment, that can also be taken a couple ways. The only real thing is that it is unlikely that a searcher will need to walk 6 hours, 1 second to the chest and back. That’s a searcher, f being direct may have an easier way. Plus, some people walk faster/slower than others. Putting a time on your walk isn’t giving an accurate assessment of a solve. At first quick glance though, list looks good. Just oust number 14. Replace it with “guessing” or something like that:).

    • I count about 6 errors, depending on what one would consider an error, IMO. I could make the case for up to 8. No offense intended, Zap. And please don’t think me a mook, but I’d rather not point them out.

      • g, It has been acknowledged by Forrest that the very FIRST Clue is: Where Warm Waters Halt, New Zeland listen to time mark at 9:40 of this interview…https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmRex5DRfCc

        That WWWH is the first line in Stanza 2, therefore if any thing exists in the first stanza, it is only a Hint or maybe not.


        • Forrest never said there were no clues in the 1st stanza; he only said the 1st clue is wwwh.

          It’s like he said when the interviewer implied that he “buried” the treasure; f. said “I never said buried it, I said I hid it. I don’t want to give that as a clue”.

          If he said definitively that there are no clues in the 1st stanza, then he would be giving a clue as to where the rest of the clues are.

          And that’s all I have to say about thaaAt.

          • Ke omega, omega, ff stated that the clues are in order and each one moves you closer to the TC as you solve it, and as to the INDIAN RESERVATION Question, it is clearly a bad idea, since I am a tribal member and from treaties of from ancient times, what exist on reservations and sometimes off if tribal in origin or in country owned by a sovereign nation stays with the people, and is fiercely contested, so unless you would like a visit by Triabal Police, FBI or similar agencies do not tread on tribal sovereignty when traveling, it ain’t worth it..

    • Zap—
      Thanks for all the time and effort you put into that. This be will be a great help, especially to those new to the Chase. Good job!

    • Zap,
      ~ First off, you neglected to think about wwwh in regards to “south” of SF… I would think if you have a wwwh that is so unique there’s no reference Below SF it might not be right.
      The triple divide comes to mind, idea.
      ~ You forgot to mention NO tunnel. If you’re working on facts you should have that as well.
      ~ Man made structure at this point in time is not a wise idea for many reason. But not truly an eliminating factor, as proof possessive, yet. but logic say Nope.
      ~ why can’t the CD be in play? That is only a judgement call. I mean, if you’re being realistic, that call can not be made at this time. just because you can perceive a possible solve from it, does automatically eliminate the possibility.
      ~ I agree with tribal and private land… but that is a judgement call… a poor judgement… but not factual, yet.
      #38 is ridiculous to be honest, we know the chest can be wet… The idea should be if the location allows the chest to be constantly wet. Example directly behind a waterfall, line of thinking.
      ~ #’s 41, 42, 43 are unreasonable judgement calls with no way of knowing how many people [ searchers or non-searcher] could arrive at wwwh or how many searchers have been within any distance 500′ 200′ 1000′
      Even fenn admits very few tell him where they been… if you do the math at 100,000 est. searchers, at a small fraction of an amount that might have been that close [ say 1% ] that could be 1000 searchers.. we can’t guess at how many! But lets break that down by one of 4 states … it’s still 250 possible searchers. Is that considered “a lot” or “a little” -???- regardless of where anyone solve leads them.

      These evaluation are fun to think about, but never are they truly useful… I mean if you asked the question a couple months ago about, is wwwh your first clues… you might of had a 50 – 50 response. Now we know. What will we know tomorrow or next week or next year?
      The way I see it, you eliminated, prejudge or over-judge somethings that just can’t be understood at this point in time… wouldn’t you call that bias because you simply want your location to work for you?

      • I’ll ad this one as well;
        34. Does your solution depend on ANY information not found in the poem?
        You said if we answer yes the solution might not be right…
        Do we dismiss the knowledge from “the book” about following “9” clues contained in the poem? [ not told in the poem] or dismiss rainbow as absolutely no help? Would we know that by following those “9 clue” clues it would lead “precisely” to the chest.
        I mean with out any information outside the poem how would we know what to look for as clues or how many?
        Like I said before; we tend to forget the obvious and now some attempt to ignore them.

        You did a descent job, but too many flaws that could kill an actual correct solve.

        End of Commentary.

      • Hi Seeker — the keyword here is “depend.” Forrest has stated that all you *need* is the poem. In fact he’s gone so far as to say you don’t need his books at all. Now I would argue that you will *need* a map of some sort, but I think that’s about as obvious as saying you need to know how to read English. Personally, I don’t think a searcher will *need* to know that there are 9 clues. Does that information help? Perhaps. But is it critical? Would not knowing there are 9 clues prevent solving the poem?

        • That’s the point, it was stated clearly there are 9 clue to follow. He could have simply stated follow the clue in the poem. to eliminate that piece of information could be critical.

          • I think the 9 clues remark is helpful, but I don’t think it’s critical to solving anything. In my research, it wasn’t until after I’d got my main clues solved that I bothered to count them – and yes, there were nine.

            But it might be wise to remember that there are also hints in the poem, and in addition to those specific nine clues, I found many other very important pieces of information. As with all of this, being too black and white could be counterproductive.

        • Zap,
          I also think your *need* in the poem is going to get a possible solve into deep waters. “All the information to “find the chest” is in the poem”…
          That comment almost yells… solve 9 clues, not 5 or 25. So, if that is a possibility that 9 very specific references are needed to be followed exactly… missing one or adding others could be the death of a correct solve.

          If fenn had written the poem slightly different… in the end there may have been 10 clues, right? Would that be important to know? I would think so… again, he mentioned a specific number when he didn’t have to… is what you seem to be saying and relying on.

          It doesn’t matter if he started with the thought of 5 clues 9 or 29… it’s what he ended up with, that made the poem “just right” is what he wanted us to know… and made that number known for preciseness and/or precision.

          Your check and balance to what you think should be or not, is flawed right there, imo. and may kill any correct potential solve by tossing it.

          Not unlike the CD can’t be involved with wwwh… that is a personal assumption with no real fact or even logic. The same for attempting to count how many searchers might have been in your theoretical solve area [for any reason]… it’s an impossible calculations to even consider, but you have it as a dismissal for a “likelihood and personal opinion” of “less likely to approach within 200 feet than within 500 feet?”
          How do you judge your less likely to fenn’s less likely and throw away a solve?

          A check and balance for keeping or tossing a theoretical solve needs to be based on known facts, not personal assumptions.
          The first clue is a great example of assumption vs. fact. Sure, it may have seemed likely [ and overlooked by many because we only have one verifiable comment about it ] But no one knew for a fact… that is why many just didn’t dismiss it on a whim.

          I could say the comment ‘ if you knew what hoB is, you’d go right to the chest’ was nothing more than blowing off the question about a clue, and that answer could have been given for any clue… fenn even said “In the wood is in the poem” So that MUST be one of the 9 clues because he mentioned it, right? That’s an opinion as well.

          Do you have “in the wood” as a “clue” ?

          Many folks dismiss fenn Q&A about an 80 yr old is not going up and down a canyon… simply because the interview was at the time Randy’s went missing… do we dismiss that as a possibility to a solution or even hold it as 100% true and make it work for all the possible solutions thought about?

          I didn’t see that comment in your evaluations… why wasn’t it? I mean, that could be a huge game changer, right? Did you forget it?, dismiss it? Not use it because it didn’t work in the solve you have at the moment?

          I am beating to death your “check list” because you posted it as such…But I would think if you’re going to attempt to have one… it needs to be much more accurate with factual thoughts, ATF and information we had from the very start.

          • A simple…basic checklist…unadulterated in any fashion…may be…
            Is your solve based on anything outside the poem?
            Yeah…I know…ATF, book/s etc. etc.

          • Hi Seeker: I’m happy to oblige you and add it as a requirement that there are 9 clues to solve. I’ll still stand by the statement that none of the books are required (though I really don’t think anyone will solve the clues without at least his first memoir).

            “Not unlike the CD can’t be involved with wwwh… that is a personal assumption with no real fact or even logic.”

            No, not my personal assumption. See Dal’s post on 12/29/2013 in Nine Clues part 25:

            “$bill-I agree.. Forrest once told a searcher who suggested that the entire YNP could be the place where warm waters halt that he was wrong… That it was a specific place and not a region… Which suggests to me that it could not be something like the continental divide or the western front of a range of mountains… as has been suggested in other posts on this blog..”

            Yes, it’s second-hand information, but I think you’ll agree that the source is reliable. 😉

            “Do you have “in the wood” as a “clue” ?”

            No — I have it as a hint because it is out of order (IMO).

            “Many folks dismiss fenn Q&A about an 80 yr old is not going up and down a canyon… simply because the interview was at the time Randy’s went missing… do we dismiss that as a possibility to a solution or even hold it as 100% true and make it work for all the possible solutions thought about?”

            I think it’s sufficient to say that Forrest did not gain or lose significant elevation while walking to/from his vehicle. That’s my take-away from his “up and down a canyon twice” remark.

            “I didn’t see that comment in your evaluations… why wasn’t it? I mean, that could be a huge game changer, right? Did you forget it?, dismiss it? Not use it because it didn’t work in the solve you have at the moment?”

            Seeker, cut me a little slack, okay? The list was meant as a conversation-starter, not the Ten Commandments. I said right up front that people will certainly have suggestions for additions/improvements. Why get so defensive?

        • well Zap,

          Yes, he has stated you don’t need the book. But, there is definitely something, from his perspective, that is ‘needed’; besides just the words in the Poem.

          Is it a map? Like you, I think that is a given. So, what else could it be?……the entire back story? in the Rocky Mtns? there are nine clues? What???

          Nice list. Doesn’t work for me, but if it works for you, I’m tickled pink!

          Hello Forrest, If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in your poem and find the treasure chest?
          Thank you~Nope
          Thank you Nope. Nope. f

          • And out of the wood work….Loco appears !
            That one freaking cracks me up every time. Thank you~ Nope
            Thank you Nope. Nope.f

          • Hi Loco,

            “Yes, he has stated you don’t need the book. But, there is definitely something, from his perspective, that is ‘needed’; besides just the words in the Poem.”

            Yes, I well recall the Nope-nope exchange.

            “Is it a map? Like you, I think that is a given. So, what else could it be?……the entire back story? in the Rocky Mtns? there are nine clues? What???”

            I think the critical piece of information that Forrest is alluding to is that the treasure chest is in the mountains north of Santa Fe. The reason, in my opinion, is that if you don’t restrict the application of the poem to North America and instead open it up to the entire world, WWWH is no longer a unique location.

            I don’t think the number 9 is at all critical, nor the mention of his “rainbow.” Helpful, maybe, but I think the poem is solvable without either of those bits of information.

            The point I was trying to capture with that line was that many searchers craft solutions that critically depend on obscure information that is not common knowledge and definitely does not derive from the poem. (The whole bible verses, head pressures quote.) So a revised wording that allows for the potential importance of mountains north of Santa Fe, 9 clues, and even a rainbow is fine with me. But dependence on Middle English, Latin, magnetic variation, acre feet, cubic inches, or anything similarly arcane should be flagged. Would you agree?

          • Zap;

            I have to disagree with you assertion that the “Rainbow” is not important.

            Up until two or three days ago, I would have agreed with you, but recently I spotted a”Rainbow” in my search area. I now feel that this is the final key that will take me to precisely where Indulgence is secreted. Only time will tell – come on Spring or Summer! JDA

          • Zap ~’Yes, I well recall the Nope-nope exchange.’
            LOL is that all you got? no response? It’s the whole premise to your check list about 9 clue, and mountains N. etc.

            Zap [ regarding mountains N of SF comment ] ~ ‘The reason, in my opinion, is that if you don’t restrict the application of the poem to North America…’

            Well that’s good to know that it’s an opinion, because for almost 3 years the Canadian Rockies were in play. fenn even pointed it out in the second book as important. I guess I could say; we need to restrict our search area to one stated, because two states is to large an area as well. Lets pick NM… Dal and Cynthia and all the others can have a nice vacation… lol we’ll call that; Check list # 49.5

            But I reall have to ask how you can call rainbow and 9 clues ‘arcane’
            what is so mysterious about fenn saying the poem contains 9 clue that IF follow precisely will lead to his rainbow? and of course the treasure, stated second in ‘order’

            Is that simply dramatic writing? A sales pitch to get the excited over?

            I think you might think folks are making fun f=of you or the check list, but I for one am very serious about my replies… if we let go or the idea that the poem contains 9 clues and fenn felt the need to tell just that… Then I truly would give up this challenge… especially, when fenn has repeated there are 9 clues to “decipher.”

            Being bound to a check list with ideas and opinions, is going against the whole point of having a check list, or a cheat sheet, or PDF ATF information… if it all falls down to any “opinion” at all.
            A check list is supposed “fact check” ones opinions, as to be factual as possible…lol

            I might as well go back to my first solution if that’s the case… it was brilliant, imo, until fenn started those pesky ATF.

            Commentator ends commentary due to tears in eyes from laughing so hard, and can no longer read the keyboard.

          • Aha! So only Fenn can make ATF statements?!

            So, that means ATF statements are actually statements made by Fenn that oppose statements made by Fenn at an earlier date?

          • Which are you referring to as useless- ATF,poem or books? I think they all are useful. IMO .

          • Seeker: I don’t get the impression you read to the end of my reply to Loco:

            “So a revised wording that allows for the potential importance of mountains north of Santa Fe, 9 clues, and even a rainbow is fine with me.”

            And I’m not sure what your point is about the Canadian Rockies. North America INCLUDES the Canadian Rockies. I opined that Forrest’s statement “in the mountains north of Santa Fe” might well be critical extra information — particularly if failure to restrict the scope of the poem to North America yielded multiple places elsewhere in the world that could fit his clues.

            “But I reall have to ask how you can call rainbow and 9 clues ‘arcane’”

            I DIDN’T. Read my darned message and stop trying to guess what it says.

            “I think you might think folks are making fun f=of you or the check list, but I for one am very serious about my replies…”

            Well, if you were serious I would think you’d at least read what I wrote, because if you had you would know that I was not talking about 9 clues, or rainbows, or mountains north of Santa Fe when I wrote “arcane”.

          • Zap,
            The check list is basically all ATF information… while good to know… the only true resource we [ the readers ] we’re given was the book, the poem within, and yes, “the rules.”
            There are rules: The poem contains 9 clues, follow 9 clues that lead to a place in the mountains N. of SF. that will take one to fenn’s rainbow…

            This as been fennology 101 since day one. How this is done, is up to the readers to determined how to go about deciphering the clues.
            For the life of me, I don’t understand how anyone [ and many many have ] can say ‘there are no rules in the chase’

            Fenn admits he was a little surprised that so many picked up maps [ if you can’t find that comments, I’m sure Loco can pull it out of a hat for ya ]
            But I think we all agree it really shouldn’t have been as surprise…

            Any check list style, check and balance must have what is known… You eliminated the most fundamental pieces of information we had long before fenn did his very first interview.

            Your opinion was, these pieces of information don’ help ‘you’ and/or being seven years later have not ‘seem’ very important to you.
            That is not a fact to what was given us to work with. Just because it hasn’t panned out for anyone at this point in time [ or the first year or the 4th or even the up coming eighth year] Those are the “rules” the readers were given.

            We needed to determine where in [ the world ] the mountains are and why … fenn’s ATF helps some, but didn’t eliminate the fact we need to understand it and “maybe” still do. *You can’t simply put “restriction” on those. And the only reason we know the chest is located in 4 states is because fenn eliminated them for us… NOT that WE figured out anything.

            Others have done these check list and ‘all’ that I have seen did exactly what you did… removed or dismiss what was given us from the very start of the challenge [ or at this period of time feel it’s none important almost 8 years later ] and have an incomplete list [ as I stated in my first comment about your list ]

            A check list is only good, or helpful, if it’s factual… even IF you don’t agree with it, or not sure what to do with the facts known.

            While others gave you a thumbs up for a great job done… I had to laugh. you killed your own check list right at the start… because you were not honest with yourself. Ya can get mad at me all you want… but in all honesty, you’re going to need to prove me wrong by finding the chest… then you can rub it in my face if ya like…

            End of commentary….

          • Just to make things clear for all the new kids in town…

            There are NO RULES!!!!

            Mr. Fenn has not (said) follow these “rules”.

            What he has done is to give us his POEM in his BOOK and has talked about Clues and Hints in different ways and methods. These are the simple FACTS. That’s it.

            Be CAREFUL all you new kids… Some old kids in the game might miss quote some things. There are enough on this blog to provide quotes that can be checked and they will usually give the source of the quote.

            One must interpret this stuff on their own, as it is (your) individual Chase that you dedicate yourself to… not someone else’s Chase or ideas.

            Make your own variation for yourself.


          • James,
            Did you even read the quote [ that is older than dirt ] loco posted as a reminder to another conversation from earlier this week?

            Before ya become the town crier, ya might want to take fenn’s words over anyone else… including mine…before ya yell out the red coats are coming.

            Hint; you can find it on the hoB thread posted this week. Skip that… I’ll just post the dang thing, Again.

            “If they don’t know the rules, tell them to stay home and play Canasta.” f

            If you want more context of this quote, you can look it up.
            **Just to make things clear for all the new kids in town… **
            Clear as a bell, right?

          • ken.
            Amen to what?
            Clear as a bell?
            or James calling me an old kid?

            lol… only looking for some clarity.

          • Between Loco’s and yours…it should be obvious that there are “rules”…I mean Fenn has attested to it more than necessary. I think that folks often interpret “stuff” the way that seems to fit their own purposes, and that is natural, but not prudent in the Chase. My short…Poem “only” quip was less than sincere…meant to highlight that. I agree that Zap’s “list” is less than sufficient and perhaps self induced…but at the same time he does put in some good effort….at least for conversational purposes.
            IF…he had included ALL and broke the list into more “subjective” categories and without “yes” or “no” options…this may have garnered more traction as a group discussion.

          • ken,
            Yep, I enjoyed reading Zaps check list for just that purpose, as you stated it get the discussions going…
            it really doesn’t matter to me what is one or not on the list, and more to the fact many jump in chatting about many things that have been left on the back burner… nothing wrong with rehashing and updating ourselves.

            But at the same time, and Zap know this, there is going to be head bucking. And that’s a good thing… This way more thoughts and analyzing for what is known [verifiable] to what is subjective, and yes, to what is circling the outer solar system, can help with an already complex challenge.

            You said’…often interpret “stuff” the way that seems to fit their own purposes, and that is natural,..’

            Yep, and it always be that way. However, my contributions to the chat or my intent anyways is to avoid ignorance [self include] Ignorance is not meant as knock down… that would be stupidity by definition. Ignorance is meant to be; lack of knowledge or lack of supporting information.

            My example would be James barking;
            ~Just to make things clear for all the new kids in town…
            There are NO RULES!!!!

            If he wants to work on the premise… I’m fine with that. Ignorance is bliss in this case.
            But my philosophy of is to present existing knowledge [fenn’s own words] with reasoning and hopefully some value to that conversation… and not just blurt out what I personally want things to be like.

            LOL but there will always be a knowitall that will throw on a red cape, try and save the day, by throwing out personal beliefs as “facts” and no reasoning to back it up.

            I want to thank Zap for posting his list… it got folks to chat. lol, Zap and I have bucked heads before, but like i said… bucking heads is a go thing to keep one on there toes.

          • Hi Seeker — so along the lines of trying to expand the conversation and hash out some ideas, I think I have a better wording of the 200/500-foot issue:

            “Does the chest’s location in your solution provide an explanation for why Forrest says “lots of people” have been within 500 feet of the treasure, but only a few have been within 200 feet?”

            I wouldn’t say the answer to this question has to be a hard “yes;” I would say a solution was slightly more promising if it did make a clear 500-foot/200-foot distinction. And even better: if a solution provided an explanation for why people apparently got within 200 feet many years ago, and yet no one since then (to Forrest’s knowledge) has gotten any closer.

            I think this 500’/200′ delineation is possibly one of the most important hints Forrest has ever provided. That no one has gotten closer than 200 feet suggests some feature of the geography that prevents it — at least by a direct, line-of-sight approach.

          • Zap

            The distance idea, imo, needs to be thought about.
            But to narrow down a reason for searcher [ And I believe fenn only talks about searcher and not so much tourist ] being that close doesn’t really matter, even if the distance was 1000′ or 100′ does it? close is close…

            it’s more important to creating a solve that can explain; why searcher didn’t see? understand? overlooked? misinterpret? [ that a hard one because we don’t know what brought them there ] than it is distance from the chest. We know the thing is hidden… so someone could even be closer, and still not know or maybe see it.

            I think as a check and balance to help with keeping one’s solve from going off a cliff, would be a solve that would say… ha! now i know why no one knew the clues or recognized them when on site.
            How you want to word that is up to you…

            I mean, we have fenn walking less than a few miles… that’s a lot of 200′ areas to consider. He has us being able to walk several hours ‘and’ this is with a correct solution… again, that’s a lot of 200′ areas… no matter the pattern of the search location; straight line, curved, box, circle, zig zag.

            WHY didn’t the notices clues to such a straightforward hopeful poem is the real question, at this point in time.

            LOL if you had asked me that question in 2012… I would have given you a completely different perspective.
            Simply because of fenn’s comment about his hiding the chest and our attempt of hours to walk our solve, twice, that were not known then.

            Let me ask you this… the Q&A about distance from the blaze? “The answer to your question will be obvious,..” right?
            Can you put a distance on that Q&A? I can’t.
            It could be the chest is at your feet or across a gorge 1500′ on the other side, with an arrow point at the chest. While all the clues are this side of the big hole.

            Can your solve explain why so many who had the first two clues indicated, didn’t know they did, and why…? Is on my mental check list.

            Distance does matter, imo, how a ‘searcher’ was that close.
            fenn gave us a parameter to work with, narrowing down distance… Less than few miles and several hours of walking, twice ~ or less.

            So I guess if you have a solve that start on the CD, near Canada working its way to the CD in NM… ya might be a redneck… but, you’re hears your sign.

      • Hi Seeker…Zap.

        IMO – I thought the list was more expanded than the first one someone put out – I saw it a couple of years back – but I think this is a great “checklist” or “guide” for the newcomers to the search, as it is always expanding as new information is out into play.

        Granted, you both and myself have been involved with our own missions to retrieve the chest, so we actually can better gauge these questions.

        Newer folks can’t because they may not have tackled some of the obstacles we have.

        Granted “Zap’s” attempt was forthright, but of course there are going to misperceptions….but that is what the community can do to help as a whole….correct the errors….or…….are there truly errors?…..LOL


        This is teamwork. *smiles*

    • Hi Zaph, I was wondering about #19. I am very curious to why it is not on Tribal Land. Thank you

      • Zaph, I am sorry, it was impolite of me to not say thank you first for making a list for all to use. Thank you for that. I saw the answer to my poorly worded question above.

      • Hi Alopes — no apology necessary, and I thought your question was worded just fine. Not all of Forrest’s remarks are common knowledge, as evidenced by searchers asking about the private land/tribal land issue. To be honest, I don’t think Forrest’s statements utterly eliminate any chance the treasure is on tribal or private land, but they certainly lean strongly that way. I know I’ll never search for the chest in such areas, but recognize that others may be more permissive in their interpretations.

        • I have two areas that are in my realm of possibilities. One of the areas is on Tribal land. I am not going to go to that area. I would love if F said it wasn’t on Tribal land but to me that is giving away a lot of information, imo. I would wonder if the reporter was directly quoting F as having said that or if it was their own interpretation. I wonder if F did put it on Tribal land as a peace offering of sorts. From what I have read, when a weapon is buried it is symbolic of a peace making. When it is dug up, it is a declaration that peace time is over. I have wondered if ‘go in peace’ is a way of telling us it is buried. This would make more sense to me if it was buried on Tribal land. I hope that it is not. I personally do not think it is on private land.

    • Zap- im confused by your list. you begin by making reference to the “chest” and then somewhere down the line chest morphs into “treasure” and then even further down the line “treasure” becomes “treasure chest”. i tried to answer all questions either yes or no but got mixed up as to what you are talking about. im looking for the bronze box. can you make a list for that?

      obviously i fail. (again)

    • Hi Zap…..wonderful work….and a nice collection of things to includes in a seeker’s thoughts.

      You wrote….
      If the answer to any of questions 20-36 is “Yes,” or any of questions 37-43 is “No,” you probably need at least an adjustment to your solution.

      I have to disagree in some form, because some questions are vague enough to go either way. Some are just too vague.

      Let me explain. For the most part, I answered the way I should to make it a true statement….but some…..IMO – I’m not so sure you are looking deep enough into the questions.

      11.Near, under, or associated with a manmade structure?
      -Possibly….”near”….just how much of a distance is this term….over 500 ft?
      – it is subjective, therefore, unknown — thus, one cannot really answer this accurately.

      28.Does your solution depend on any specialized knowledge? Yes
      “Remote viewing” – lean techniques –
      geography – metaphysical and esoteric techniques and usage – history – and then carefully listening, observing, and understanding what Forrest Fenn says or means. Are these all really specialized? Hmmm….it would be special if you can decipher his words and their meaning.

      30. Does your solution involve “switching back” or “making a loop”?
      – Not a clear question.
      – if one were to use the commas as directional, there may be something to moving always left….in a circle, like someone else had stated….a marvel gaze, may include a 360 degree turn to the left.

      34. Does your solution depend on ANY information not found in the poem? Yes
      – if you think of this question, a dictionary is required.

      35.Does your solution depend on the placement of commas in the poem? Yes

      37. Could all of your clues, at least in theory, be solved from home without ever putting boots on the ground? Yes

      39. If a searcher solved your first two clues, but not your third or fourth, would they go right past the treasure chest?
      – Yes and No
      – they would have to understand the reason why they arrived there….if they do, they can move forward.  If not…they can’t move forward and stuck.

      Hope this helps.

      Best of luck and thanks again for posting.

    • Nice job on the lists Zap. A few can be somewhat subjective but it is not likely that anyone can do much better considering we haven’t found the chest.

    • Thanks for posting this, Zaphod. Very stimulating, as evidenced by previous replies.

      One can read the poem plainly and flit from one clue location to the next toward the end. This is because the poem’s spatial directions do truly map onto specific landscape features, albeit with some poetic license. However, TTOTC is fairly required to accurately interpret the clues, and only in hindsight is the plain reading at all plain. And thus when the chest is claimed, the correct solution will elicit a “Why didn’t I think of that!” response.

      13. “proximaty”

      22. Men can make homes that aren’t structures, bear in mind.

      28. Specialized knowledge, no. But knowledge outside of the poem and TTOTC which is probably considered common knowledge, yes. Just basic geography and history to guide you on your journey through time.

      34. Again, there are two ways to approach the poem. In the plain reading, no, no outside information in required. But the plain reading only makes sense with information from TTOTC and a few other sources which is necessary to solve the clues. Clearly, if only a plain reading were sufficient, then those searchers who have solved the first two clues, or three, or seven, would simply follow the remainder of the poem’s navigational instructions to arrive at the chest’s precise location. But we haven’t yet.

      39. I’d just add that continuing “right past” the remaining seven clues and the chest doesn’t necessarily mean those clue locations are aligned arrow straight. Perhaps far from it.

      By the way, Zaph, I’m one of the lurkers you’ve always worried about.

        • Yes – proximaty – Forrest once said, ““Generally speaking, there are places where one should stay on established trails; Yellowstone is one. However, it reminds me of the worn-out axiom, “If you ain’t the lead dog, the scenery never changes. When I am in the mountains or in the desert, the last place I want to be is on a trail. Ain’t no adventure in that for me. There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty (sic) to where I hid the treasure”. f

          A little research wouldn’t hurt you much KeΩΩ – Just sayin – JDA

          • P.S. Go to tarryscant.com – type in proximaty and it takes you right to the quote. A GREAT research tool – JDA

          • OK, I bit, I had to research who Alex Nullen was – a memory expert.

            No I do not think you are Alex Mullen, that is why I suggest research – but I am sure that my advice is falling on closed ears, since you appear to already know it all – JDA

      • My pleasure, pdenver. My primary goal was to stimulate conversation about what “facts” are agreed upon, and what requirements and prohibitions are only strongly suspected. So to that end, I suppose the list that I offered up for consideration served its purpose.

  33. Ohh, number 13. Define “near”. About 200ft? 500ft? Very close proximity? We know “close proximity” is around 2 1/4″, don’t know what “near” would be. No fair saying between 2 1/4″ and about 200′.

  34. Zap…my first turn around the block says your effort is spectacular and kudos for putting the time in for conversational sakes…and sharing.
    There are a couple of grandiose assumptions which are perfectly understandable considering what folks have been given to work with and particularly how these may be/have been interpreted over the years.
    Shoot…I still like it a lot though…good stuff.

  35. Zap maybe I missed it but did you address driving a sedan to disembark with the chest in tow for the long walk to special place? Perhaps I missed that?

    Great Job, borders on bring tears to a treasure hunter….


    • Hi TomT: good point on the sedan (though some will quibble about what a sedan is). I assume what you’re getting at is that the treasure should not be in a location that requires a 4WD all-terrain vehicle in order to get close enough to reach the treasure chest on foot in a reasonable amount of time. The redneck with the pickup truck needs to be able to drive within a few miles of the chest. We also have Forrest’s remark about no special equipment being required, which I tend to think would rule out special vehicles that most would not have access to.

  36. Zap,
    Clearly the Technician on this Treasure Express.

    I love the list – I doubt any serious searcher will ever use the list in the exclusion of other information so therefore it is a great tool to work from.

    Each serious searcher will then make their own choices on the subtleties there in…”and that’s what makes it so interesting.f”

    • Zap,

      I do agree that as the search community learns more each year – the list can be improved on. Its very similar in its concept to how one of the long time searchers in a recent post said, they wanted to start over in their search and be guided from only the FACTS.

      It is a worthwhile pursuit to refine this list and Dal might even think about giving the list its own place on the site with himself as the final judge to its ongoing refinement.

      What do you think Dal?


      • In fact there could even be a section of the site devoted to “probable hints” that are determined over time – just a thought.

        • GCG…Dal has a section here called the Cheat Sheet. It is added to occasionally as time passes and new things are said by Fenn…or discovered. Fundamentally it is as good as it gets if one takes into account the nature of the Chase…and the ambiguity of what is out there for folks to work with.
          I admire the effort Zap has put into the Chase…that speaks for itself. He is also subject to wearing blinders at times…just like the rest of us.

          • Yes Ken,

            Dal cheat sheet and the section on “Most Important Info” particularly the section on “Fundamental Guidelines” and “Rumors” have a lot of this kind of info however I don’t know how Dal can keep up with it all — REALLY!!!

            One of these sections or perhaps multiple sections could be condensed with this kind of list since its very efficient. Dal needs all the help he can get.


  37. Thanks for putting in the hard work and thought, Zap. Your list could be a useful tool, particularly in relation to reminding searchers of unequivocal statements by FF (not below 5000 ft., not in a dangerous place, etc.).

    However, I would caution against being too prescriptive. There are nuances in many of FF’s writings and interviews. Literal interpretations may be correct, but they could also inhibit someone from making an inspired leap. For example, we still have no idea whether the 200′ / 500′ comments relate to distance on a linear plane or change in elevation. Or, for another example, when talking about the blaze, it’s worth remembering the precise words used by Forrest and his questioner:

    “Is the Blaze one single object?” ~ Scout Around
    “In a word – Yes”

    He doesn’t just say “Yes,” period, he hedges with, “In a word…” Why?
    It’s these subtleties (and there are many) that it would be worthwhile taking into account before making hard and fast decisions.

    Just my two cents.

    • Vox,
      Very good point – each item on the list could have a very short explanation or link or nuance next to it.
      and in your example given the name of the person asking the question certainly adds an additional possibility…

    • Hi Voxpops: agreed on the nuances of some of Forrest’s answers. I intended this list to be the ~start~ of a conversation (as opposed to, say, the 43 Commandments), and wholeheartedly want people to make suggestions about how to improve upon it. There have already been some excellent suggestions, and numerous flaws have been pointed out.

  38. Zap,
    Another example would be the often quoted statement by Forrest; “Don’t mess with my poem.”

    However the context of this statement really is critical because it lets the searcher have a much better idea or context of what Forrest means by to “mess with.”

    Dal; “Once when I tried to substitute words in the poem…”


  39. Zap, #’s 3 & 8 make me smile and chuckle or chuckle and smile. You choose the order. Does the order really matter? f is a crafty, nimble feller. Don’t let him fool you. IMO, if you take what he says and break it down, your eyes will open more and you will be able to have a better focus. I suggest sitting down with some nice clear bottled water and clear your head sometime (perhaps, in the mountains). That last statement is just a suggestion. I suggest doing this over and over until… until… until, well who knows when. You get my point, right? Oh yeah… and please be a steward of nature and remember PIPO (Pack In, Pack Out). I’m sure f and others would appreciate it. A discarded water bottle matters. It all matters, depending on what’s the matter. Dang, I hate it when I catch myself rambling.
    Note to f: Thanks to your persuasion, I got myself a new lid.

  40. I am not sure who created this check-list. I found it almost 2 years ago when I first started the Chase. My thanks to the person that created it:

    The treasure is located above five-thousand feet sea level
    No need to dig up any outhouses, the treasure is not associated with any structure
    The treasure is in the Rocky Mountains at least 8.5 miles north of Santa Fe
    The treasure is below 10,200 feet and is not on a mountain top
    The chest is 10” X 10” X 5” and it total weight = 42 lbs. took 2 trips in one afternoon
    No codes or ciphers to determine the location
    No anagrams (anagram = type of cipher)
    The nine clues must be followed in consecutive order
    At least 300 miles west of Toledo and not in Nevada
    Does it use a little imagination?
    Can you see the architecture of the words putting a smile on FF face?
    Does the poem lead to a precise place?
    Where Warm Waters Halt is not a dam.
    No substitute for thinking, planning, observing and looking at good maps
    Could a child get there with help?
    Is this a place that a person 80 years old can get to?
    The clues did not exist when I was a kid, but most of the places referred to did
    Does it explain, “Nobody is going to happen on the chest, you’re going to have to figure
    Out the clues in the poem to go to it?”
    Does it explain why he is not worried if his secret place is revealed?
    “It is not on top of a mountain, but it could be close.”
    Not overly complex; some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about
    Head pressure, foot pounds, acre feet, Bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts,
    graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones, or
    cyphers will not assist anyone in finding the treasure location, although those things have
    been offered as positive solutions.
    Does it explain “With my last gasping breath, I was going to fling myself on top of that
    Treasure chest and let my bones go back to the dirt?”
    Seems logical that a deep-thinking seeker could use logic to determine key clues
    Explain why some people got 1st 2 clues but missed next 7
    Use of comprehensive knowledge of geography helpful
    Nothing about finding the treasure will be accidental
    Tight focus with a word that is key
    He wasn’t playing any games, Poem is straightforward
    Able to be found 1,000 years down the road.
    Does it consider mudslides, forest fires, earthquakes and floods?
    Does the solution identify the hints in his books, including TFTW?
    Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth and/or good map
    Does it explain how he would know that the treasure has been found? When asked how he
    Would know it would be found he said, “I really don’t want to answer the question because
    That would be an answer I really do not want to reveal.”
    The treasure is hidden, but he did not say it wasn’t buried.

    Somehow I seem to recall something about E.C. Waters having posted this, but I easily could be wrong.

    Thanks again to whoever put in the work – JDA

    • Notice Utah and Idaho and Canada or lack of?
      LOL these check list are fun at the time they are created. But so much is known now from then or even has changed. How reliable will they be tomorrow?
      The list maker needs to be truthful to him or her self… not leave out something just because it’s not to their liking, or add something that is questionable because they do.
      Not to mention, being able to adjust… Lately I don’t see many attempting to adjust…
      Some have a solve that is 2 3 4 years old working of the same premise of the old checklist, and won’t let go, only working on what AFT’s that work in their favor.
      That’s not an honest check list or check and balance process, that’s a Christmas wish list.

      Dang JDA, LOL…how much dust was on this list when you dug it up… I personally agree with most of it, but definitely needs updating.

      • I agree it needs updating. Maybe you will take that up as your “Winter Recess” project. 🙂 JDA

        • My check list is much simpler. When I see an ATF comment or anything that has been called a clue [ even fenn’s useless clues ] My attempt is to make the true to each other look at any possible solution of thought.

          For example; We’re we supposed to understand the RM range vs. any mountains N of SF? Can wwwh be the RM ‘range and it’s watershed -?- Why not. many don’t like the idea because it not specific in their mind as an individual clue… But… If hoB could be something like the Browns Valley Man { not a name but a given title that will not ever change, idea } you might say that can’t be because it is outside the search area, right.

          But WhatIF the location of the clue is? The reference to the clue is about the Title but the location is the 45th parallel.. to put in below, in the Rocky Mountain range. NFBTFTW may refer to the distance of the title reference but not the outcome of the clue. Basically saying; stay within the Range.

          OK, But now what? were in the Rockies @ the 45th and we need to go below… where is below? NPFTM might refer to the “backbone” a reference of the CD… the Range’s watershed or wwwh.. So now we’re at the 44th par. on the CD in the RM’s.

          Can any of that be correct with the AFT in all honestly? Well, by Zap list I should throw this away. Is that a reasonable assumption just because Zap doesn’t like the Idea the CD can be wwh in a small area below the 45th and before the 43rd par?

          The point is; it can be. However, t there are other ATF’s that tear the idea apart; but not the idea wwwh can’t be involved with the CD, or the RM “range” is of no use, or even the use of coordinates that align with a clue reference, and other things on Zap’s check list… those are nothing more than a bias opinions.
          I don’t see how Zap, in good faith say te number – 9 clues has little bearing on a solve if any, or the CD is N/A and we don’t need to know the RM’s are important overall to be considered.

          For another example; This list is missing Canada, missing Idaho and Utah… do we dismiss the possibilities that a border of a two states might not be involved if one stated has been kicked? Without getting into much discussion about it… wouldn’t it be a hoot if the chest sat smack on two states border line? IDK the legality of it all, but it does raise an eyebrow.

          Or how about Canada… anyone ever hear of the free-zone? [ think it’s called ] land agreed to be of no ownership to either country…
          The idea of this theory is in part the RM “range” .. the end as boundary/border.. the semi colon as 1/2 the distance of the range and might refer to NFBTFTW as 1/2.

          These theories do have to pass a sniff test, but Zaps and this ‘older’ post don’t have the information, or dismiss it, even before a theory can reach any possible conclusion.
          { I understand this older post is old, but Idaho and Utah should be on it, because later ATF are }… so this list is wrong or incomplete at the time it was created… ya have to ask -why- did the searcher leave them out? The most likely answer is they were deliberately overlooked because they would have hurt that person’s solve in some manor.

          A rush to judgement of what is, to what might be, or might not be is not a good list to work off of… lol.. but they are a blast to read for chuckle.

          End of commentary….

          • Seeker and Zap, the 4 states exist from the 32 nd (degree) parallel in the south at the Texas, NM, Old Mexico border, note a small deviation at Rio (Bravo) Grande River created….by…https://www.google.com/search?q=gadsden+purchase&oq=gasden&aqs=chrome.1.69i57j0l5.6039j0j7&sourceid=chrome&ie=UTF-8
            … so surely a geographical boundary and borders exist in that perspective which is beyond the Map in “Too Far Book” also consider the northern boundary or border we have the end of the Big Picture at the Canadian Parallel of 49 th (degree) so 32 minus 49 equals 17 degrees of workable Rockies, large, but not as big as what he was alluding too in our wild imaginations in 2010/11. Now eliminate the over 10,200′ elevation and perhaps the Indian Reservations etc.

            What you both are exploring here is the whittling away of this Big Picture to something more manageable, most of the elimination process is like JDA says but has not stated yet… the sculptor believes that this final form exists in that block of stone, wood or whatever medium, ie Rocky Mountains in our case, what we need are these kinds of tools, sharpened and applied like a painters brush strokes which produce the form of art, I think when each of us create art it is the same process, mine is the medium of video, JDA is granite, soapstone etc. but when we all illustrate our take on the “Chase” a diaphanous form will appear in the collective expression of all these comments by searches, it is the WHY we read this stuff… We are absorbed in creating a picture of Forrest special place and it will need a lot of collective thinking, straight forward meanings and logical, yet imaginative expressions.. I like the kinda THESE tools that cut to the Chase…


          • Tom
            I like your analogy – Very nice. Yes, the form is in my head as to what the final product (the hidey hole) will look like – Ifonly I can chip away all of the “bad” stuff, and leave behind only the “Good” stuff – Let’s keep “chippin’ away at it guys and gals – JDA

          • I’ve seen it thrown around quite a bit here, and I’ve asked about it a couple of times, but I haven’t gotten definitive answers.

          • Hello Ke (double omega). There are those before you who have asked what “ATF” means and searchers have been kind to let them know it stands for “after the fact” for which it was used in posts.

          • Yes, someone said it stood for After The Fact.

            I see as a rabbit hole of sorts, if you will, because any idea or statement about f.’s treasure would be an ATF…

            Unless of course someone who happened to be very psychic way back before f. hid the treasure jumped up one day and said “Forrest Fenn is going to hide a treasure in the mountains somewhere north of Santa Fe, NM and I want to be the first to comment on where I think he’s going to hide it”.

            Can you see the dichotomy in that?

          • Ke (double omega), would you consider the following as an after the fact statement(s)?:


            Heading out on another search to a spot I think has a lot of merit. I was hoping to get your take on a couple of questions before I head out.

            1) Can you give me the context in which you said the treasure was “in the mountains North of Santa Fe”? It seems a lot of people have taken that phrase and ran with it. My question is whether or not this was intended to be a clue.

            2) Was there significance, beyond an anecdote for the book, of the Horseshoe in “Thrill of the Chase”?

            Forrest responds-

            The treasure chest certainly is in the mountains somewhere north of Santa Fe, and that is a clue. That is not to say it is exactly 360 degrees from Santa Fe, but generally. If you start chasing horseshoes you may go crazy, but it’s the thrill of the chase, remember? Other clues I have given but are not commonly known are: It’s not in Nevada and it is more than 300 miles west of Toledo, but those won’t help you much. Good luck. f


            (paraphrasing) In the Rocky Mountains north of Sante Fe.

          • I eventually caught on to how “in the mountains north of Santa Fe” turned into “in the Rocky Mountains north of Santa Fe”.

            The latter I would now consider an ATF statement, and have probably made a few myself.

    • An anagram is not a cipher. A cipher is a specific way of substituting letters in a message that can be decoded with the correct key. An anagram is a random rearrangement of letters that requires trial and error to unscramble. The one comment by Forrest on anagrams that I found, in Jenny Kile’s blog, doesn’t answer the question about possible anagrams in the poem one way or the other.

      • I think this keyword thing has gotten out of hand.

        Searchers are taking everything f. says and trying to decipher it as if he’s always speaking in code; what is Forrest Fenn, a code spitting machine?

        No, he’s straight shooting guy with a love of nature and adventure, nothing overly complicated about him, IMO.

        When f. said “a word that is key”, I honestly believe he meant a word in the poem that will ring a bell when the correct area is researched.

        Who will be the one to figure it out


        • FF quote:

          “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental “.

          Seems like a best practice ,uncoded. IMO .

  41. Cynthia’s book on her experiences searching for the treasure is a treasure itself, in my opinion. Wonderful photographs, lots of Forrest quotes, and some revealing information that Forrest has shared about some of her solutions. Certainly gives me a lot to consider. After reading the book, I am convinced that when Forrest says “warm”, he means warm to the touch. That eliminates a lot of “warm waters halt” possibilities for me.

  42. (From The Lure Q&A)
    Q4: Has anyone determined the nine clues and what they represent?

    FF: “Well there’s about 250,000 people that think they have. I don’t know that anybody has told me the clues in the right order. ”

    Bit of a head scratcher of an answer. Was someone right about the 9 but wrong in their sequence? Weird. IMO .

    • Remember that FF originally didn’t want that Lure Q&A released. There weren’t supposed to be any Chase questions at the screening (maybe even no Q&A at all, I can’t really remember), for one thing. And he reportedly didn’t feel like he was on top of his game in responding.

      So, even more so than other verbal Q&A’s, I take answers from this one with a few grains of salt. As opposed to his written Q&A and comments, there’s a limit to how tightly you can parse the verbal stuff – it’s not a congressional hearing with a lawyer leaning over and whispering in his ear before every answer to make sure he doesn’t trip up.

      From the same period is the “you can’t ignore any of the nouns in that poem” statement (On the Road with Charlie pt1). I think it’s just as likely he meant “words”, and there was no “can we do another take.” (But I also got out the highlighter and listed all the nouns anyway.)

      Even in earlier interviews, when he was hitting the same talking points over and over again, we hear in successive sittings “8 miles,” “8-point-two-five miles,” “eight and a half miles,” “hidden,” and “buried.”

      Yep, he did say “buried”, more than once. You gotta admit it’s a word that can just come right out your mouth when talking about what you do with treasure chests.

      So yes, it does make you look up, and it makes me scratch my head too . . . but there’s only so many angels can dance on my li’l pinhead at one time.

      In any case – or rather in this case – what he did do was not answer the question that was asked while still leaving us all reaching for our pencils.


      • J A Kraven. You have some very good points that can convince a belief into a truth. But I give this statement by him ,a little bit more inspection. For a moment , thinking that the Q&A was a perfect setting for him, , what I wonder is this: How could the correct 9 clues be given, but in the wrong order? How so , being as the clues are contiguous?

        I think this requires some more open thought, anyways. It could be as you say but also it could not be. IMO .

        • Let’s say that someone uses the “One sentence = one clue rule, and this person creates a “solve” and sends it to Forrest.
          Maybe in Forrest’s mind, the nine “Clues” are in Stanza’s 2,3 and 4., and that the “Hints” are in Stanza’s 5, 6 and 1.
          In the solve, the correct clues were used, but not in the “order” that Forrest had envisioned that they be used.

          One possible explanation – maybe – JDA

          • JDA, yes that is what I am getting at. I used the meek and brave as an example, though my decision of the clues spread is stanzas 2,3,4. IMO Someone or persons may have identified or explained the clues , just in the wrong order. Or even their meaning of a hint ( outside stanzas 2,3,4) was actually a meaning of one of the clues. This could be meaning -valid in the poem as a clue meaning but they said it’s meaning as something in stanza 5 or 6 ( hint) A couple of possibilities I’d say; clue line for clue line more so than or hint meaning of a clue crossed. I think more likely the clue for clue line myself. Since he was answering about clues. IMO .

      • I think it’s safe to say that f. is determined to keep the location of the chest a secret and not give any clues other than those in the poem.

        All the time and effort he has put into this, it would be way out of character for him to deviate from his plan.

    • One possible thought is, the clues were told to fenn as other clues in a searcher’s process.
      Mr. Fenn, we started here [ wrong place] went there [ wrong place… went here and here and there {correct first two clues} then came to the end of our search and didn’t find your chest.

      Point is; maybe the got HLAWH as their WWWH or any other two clues mixed up.
      Fenn also said, as many as the first four clues solved, right? Can the same scenario act out, that a searcher mentioned the correct four clues in the correct order… but not in the correct order of the poem.
      LOL I mean, how can folks walk by all the clues IF they were at the first two clues from the very start, as being the first two clues?
      This also seems to imply the clues could be closer because the area of the clues could have both WWWH and HLAWH very near each other… as well as all the other… it might be nothing more than mistaken Identity.

      • Seeker. That’s is around what I am thinking. I applied the same imagination of possibilities . Solved the first two and/or four clues and walked by the other clues. This could apply to the ” in the right order” . My example in the poem ,of such a scenario , is ” no place for the meek”, with “brave and in the wood”. The stated meanings of these could have been correct but applied meaning is of the other line- switcharooskie. They are very similar in meanings one could think about. Meek doesn’t necessarily mean ‘not brave’ . Some think ‘ meek’ is going into the spooky forest ,to a city slicker lol. I wouldnt think FF would apply the ‘meek’ meaning in this way. IMO .

        So, in the right order answer, could have a handshake to the understanding of why they solved the first 2 or 4 and walked by the other clues. Close by ,but the counter wise of like wise. IMO .

        • Only a few searchers have been within 200ft and a bunch more within 500ft, then how close would the searchers who found the first 2 clues have been when they walked past the remaining clues? I could see where “walked past” meant that they walked past the remaining clues, not one at a time, but all at once when they took the wrong turn. For example first two clues are in a main canyon, remaining clues covering a half mile up a side canyon that the searcher didn’t go up.

          • Ke??,
            Yes, but things, distances, moments of breathless rapture, etc could still be walked past without noticing. Especially if there’s something that looks like it just maybe could be a blaze in another direction.

          • O.K. I’m going to perform a little magic.

            (paraphrasing) “the person who finds the treasure will not happen upon it by accident, he will move with confidence to the final location”.

    • I agree, it is baffling especially since we have this too:

      “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order.”

      He didn’t say people have told him the 9 clues, and he said that he doesn’t know that anybody has told me the clues in the right order. Because of this I can only guess that not only have they not told him the 9 clues but they also haven’t told them to him in the right order.

      IMO he is good at leading is us in a direction he wants by conveniently leaving out pieces of information that might be important to know the true answer.

    • I was the one that asked that question at the Lure. Knowing Forrest is an honest man, I felt that the question would be very easy to answer. So it was answered like I expected with no mistakes. Its not the Poem that needed be in the right order. I think I said that right from the start somewhere.

      An Indian Scout and A Saint

    • Al – Perhaps they aren’t in the right order because what FF considers a singular clue was referenced as a conglomerate clue? Sure, all 9 clues have been mentioned to him, even in order because they are consecutive, but they were not precisely as FF envisions them—inclusion or exclusion of words on either end would skew the required precision enough to make his reply true. In shorthand, all 9 clues are mentioned, in order, just not with precision.

  43. Zap…I see what you’re trying to do….like things aren’t all mixed up enough! It’s like the best Fun House you could ever imagine….
    I am seriously just kidding…kind of.
    I believe part of the overall process to this challenge is the “serious gut check” that every searcher needs to experience for themselves throughout their involvement with the Chase. It is imperative that every “step” of the process gets checked better than Santa’s Christmas List before putting that foot down and moving on to the next. Failure is solely a learning device…not the end of the trail. If it was easy anyone could do it. Able to adjust with no target fixation comes to mind. If there was a know all fix all handbook to find Fenn’s treasure there would be none on the shelves…but that’s just another pipe dream.
    That’s what I admire about you Zap…putting the work in and forging ahead. Ain’t nothing gonna happen without at least trying something.
    Is it Spring yet?

  44. Hey Zap, great list.

    My question is on 23 I think it was. Where is it stated that “home of Brown” cannot be a structure? I thought the structure statement was pointed at the treasure not being in one. Can anyone set me straight?

    • In a recent post, Cynthia stated that Forrest had stated that hoB was not a structure. This is second-hand information, but Cynthia has a good history and record of telling only the truth, and has a friendship with Forrest, so it is very possible. JMO JDA

      • Thanks for the feedback on being 2nd hand info. If it is true, i’ll be losing a ton of confidence in my current solve. Been flawlessly easy up to the head of the no paddle creek too. Hope she remembered that saying wrong.

        • You are welcome, sorry to be the carrier of bad news, hope you can find a “work-around” your hoB structure dilemma – JDA

      • JDA, and it is very possible that Forrest or Cynthia misunderstood each other and I think she stated that she had the feeling that was what he said. That doesn’t sound very convincing to me. I wouldn’t take it as a fact.

        • I’m sure hoping you are right, MO. I’ve been on cloud nine with my current solve just waiting for the snow melt. At this point, there is a bit of credence given Cynthia’s “friendship” but anyone can misinterpret what’s conveyed in a brief conversation. It’s gonna be a lonng winter.

          • Smokybaer – have good running shoes for the Spring…there are many at the starting block waiting to start then.

    • I was wondering about that one also, but I didn’t have time to ask.

      Fenn said the treasure is not associated with any structure, which IMO means it’s not attached to or in or touching any man made object.

      He didn’t say that about HoB, actually I can’t recall ever hearing him say much of anything about HoB other than “if I told you that you’d go right to it”, which I interpret as “if I told you where HoB is you’d go right to HoB, which would be a problem, because HoB is so near the treasure”.

      • Kenn

        I have to disagree with you interpretation – You say: “IMO means it’s not attached to or in or touching any man made object.” A man made object can be almost anything made by man, a pencil, a book, a car. an ANYTHING! A structure in this instance, I believe means: “something built or constructed, as a building, bridge, or dam. ”
        Associated then becomes the next hurdle – Associated can mean: “allied; concomitant. ”

        So, what does it mean to be allied or concomitant with something built or constructed (by man) as a building, bridge or dam?

        If a car is in a garage, is the car concomitant to the garage? Maybe. If so, the TC can not be in the car.
        Can the TC be in the garage, if there is no car in the garage? Forrest said that the treasure is not associated with any structure where the TC is hidden and also at hoB. If the treasure is in the garage, is the TC associated with that structure? Interesting question for both where the TC is, and for hoB

        I wish that I had Cynthia’s quote – It might help unravel this conundrum. If Forrest said, hoB is not a structure.” That is different than him saying that hoB is not associated with a structure.

        If hoB is NOT a structure then hoB is NOT a man made building, bridge or dam. (etc) This will eliminate a LOT of “Places”, and make a LOT of people upset.

        If hoB is NOT associated with a building, bridge or dam (etc) then this leaves a bit more wiggle room.

        Questions, questions, questions – and so few answers – JDA

        • If you’re going to quote what I said, then I ask that you quote what I said accurately.


          • Kenn;
            I cut and pasted what you said – How can I be any more accurate that that. What is it that you think I misquoted?

            I admit I did not cut and paste the: “Fenn said the treasure is not associated with any structure, which…” I was not addressing what Fenn said, I was addressing what you said. – JDA

          • I have to disagree with you interpretation – You say:

            ‘ “IMO means it’s not attached to or in or touching any man made object.” ‘

            I never “IMO” means anything.

            I said “not associated with means the chest is not attached to or in or touching any man made object” .

      • KeΩΩ – You quite clearly listed the letters “IMO” in your posting on December 14, 2017 at 4:43 and that is what JDA appears to be referencing. Is the “IMO” part of someone else’s quote that you failed to appropriately cite as a quote by using quotation marks?

          • KeΩΩ – You seem to be answering my question about not assigning quotations to the letters IMO from the post you made on 12/14/17 @ 4:43, yet tell JDA you never used IMO and that JDA misquoted you by including such in his response to your post. Confusing to say the least. I’ll let you and JDA hash it out if need be.

          • JDA is the one who put IMO in quotations. That’s why I asked him to quote what I said accurately.

            Wasn’t that clear???

          • KeΩΩ;

            This is getting stupid.
            I put the whole line in quotation marks because I was quoting what you had said – I was giving you credit for your statement, not taking credit for myself.
            Your entire quote was, “Fenn said the treasure is not associated with any structure, which IMO means it’s not attached to or in or touching any man made object.”

            I cut out the first part, “Fenn said the treasure is not associated with any structure, which” – because I was not addressing what Forrest said, I was going to address your comment, which was, ” IMO means it’s not attached to or in or touching any man made object.”

            Of course I put it in quotes – I was quoting what you said. Period – end of discussion from my end – JDA

          • Sorry JDA, I’m not playing that game with you, so why don’t you stop this nonsense of yours?

  45. What if YOU hid a box?

    And after you hid that box, you decided to write a poem, well a treasure map really, which contained some clues that would lead a person to that box? Within this poem each word you placed there had a very specific meaning(s). An important meaning which the reader must interpret before they could ever solve your riddle.

    Then one day what if people started asking you questions. You want to answer their questions because that is just the type of accommodating person you are. But there is a problem. Every time someone asks you a question they keep using your words, the words in your poem, but it is obvious they have no idea what your words mean otherwise they would have asked the question differently.

    Do you make an assumption about what the questioner intended to ask? Do you provide an answer based on what you think the words they use in their question to mean, even though you use the same words differently? Are you not then adding to their lack of understanding about the words in the poem and hindering their ability to solve the problem?

    Or…you can answer truthfully based on what the words in your poem actually mean? At least you won’t be lying. Wouldn’t that be better if anybody was ever going to have a shot at solving the riddle? Problem with that approach is that you know everybody is using the wrong definitions, ergo while your response is accurate it will ultimately lead them down the wrong path with their flawed assumptions.

    You can’t correct them otherwise you give away the answers to your riddle…

    You ever get the feeling Mr. Fenn has been firmly shoved between a rock and a hard place. You ever think that maybe everything outside of the poem and the book is oh so dangerous!

    I wonder which approach he chooses when faced with this dilemma? I think I know which one I would choose.


    • Forrest Fenn is sticking to his plan. If you want the treasure, you’ll have to solve the poem and go out and locate the chest and retrieve it.

      That’s all there is to it.

    • Clee,
      I think these are good question. I also think they have been answered [ sorta ]
      ~Do you make an assumption about what the questioner intended to ask?
      In the Q&A from the students [ can’t remember where it is located [ SB, Forrest gets mail… ] But anyways… fenn stated he would answer the questions as presented. I think he does that with everyone. The answers are more than likely true to the question than they are “assumed” by the questionnaire to be true.

      ~Or…you can answer truthfully based on what the words in your poem actually mean? I agree with KeΩΩ on this one… fenn is sticking to his plan, not to assist, not to point out clues he as written about, not to deliberately aid a searcher… we all have the same information / opportunity.

      End of commentary.

      • Good observation seeker. I would say however that the opposite could be argued. If he answers 10,000 questions and only states explicitly for a few that he will answer them as presented (arguable what that even means) then it sounds like it could be more of an exception rather than a rule.

        My intent is not to debate the merit of either position so no need for me to defend either. But I will say that beleiving either to be true is one of the biggest assumptions people make who rely on the things he has said as part of their foundation for a solve. And since a large part of blog talk revolves around things he has said…well you get my point.

        I will say that if I were in his position where I knew no matter what I said it would be scrutinized later under this microscope, I would constantly tell people to go back to the poem and to start with the first clue…. my point is there is no right answer.

        • Clee…Your last…” I would constantly….back to the poem…” is pretty much exactly what Fenn has repeatedly done. And yes…the seemingly “vague” aspect to much of the available data precludes any assumptions. There sure is a ton of concrete evidence available as well. Nice ideas…Clee.

        • Clee,
          I’m pickin up wha’cha putin down.
          fenn has been very consistent with his answers. I can also say, he has stated things, that later to be clarified, that folks took as clues or hints but never intended by fenn as such.
          Some searchers used the thought ‘ bring a flashlight and a sandwich as a clue or hint. This seemed to me to be nothing more than avoiding answering a question by answering the question with common sense… if your searching and out all day, have a flashlight and a snack.
          Now fenn answered a direct question about that…”they are certainty not clues” lol
          One poster commented that this might be a clue in of its self, by saying there not clues but hints. It doesn’t matter what he says really… folks will always think what they want. Under water vs. In water is another example of how some will just not except anything even when fenn clarifies it.

          I truly think that some of fenn comments, eliminations of locations, SB’s Q&A’s etc have food for thought, and / or truth within them. Just not as blatant as some think.

          An example of this [from my perspective] fenn stated in a long answered Q&A about the sealing of the jar ~ he wasn’t ready to say the chest is not in water. This caught my eye long before fenn’s comment “the chest is not underwater” Could I assume from the Q&A fenn might have hinted about searchers thought that the chest is in water. yep and I did, But i didn’t let that assert into any thought while attempting to solve the poem… at least not until fenn came out and clarified my assumption in a later comment.

          As to how fenn answers questions, and I know you don’t want to debate it, But I will add my thought… it seems to be his personality to answer a question in a way to allow someone to think about their own question.

          Like when asked; which clue he would want out of all the clues… he thought that was funny, and turn the tables to the bloggers to think about which they would choose.
          That’s like asking a dog which steak bone he wants… what do you think the dog will say?

          End of commentary …

    • Clee – I like your post, and take from it that you are saying that FF has answered questions based upon his understanding of his poem, and since the poem is confusing enough, his answers only further confound us since we don’t yet (fully) understand the poem and all the word choices, phrasing, etc. I posted to Ken yesterday that my keyword is helping to verify his ATF’s and I am starting to see FF’s cleverness in his responses, so I agree with what you are saying.

      • Wasnt it Mr. Fenn that said “You take the blue pill, the story ends. … You take the red pill, you stay in Wonderland, and I show you how deep the rabbit hole goes.” Oh wait, that was Morpheus.

    • Clee,

      I agree with your post. The evidence to that is his comment about ‘quibbling and prevaricating’.

  46. So I guess Odds and Ends is the best place for this but my gf and I were strolling in downtown Santa Fe doing some last minute shopping. We bopped into the Collected Works bookstore for some coffee and guess who was there? When I sat down I looked at FF and he looked at me. I am always at a loss for words in the presence of fame. He could tell I recognized him and he was probably thinking “Oh God who is this” He was chatting with a nice woman with a foreign accent. I didn’t introduce myself but that is a nice bookstore and we always enjoy our coffee there.

    • Glad to hear you got to see Mr. Fenn, although not speak with him. Collected Works is a really nice place. The day I was there, Dorothy was preparing for a famous author’s book launch. I believe it was Barbara Park, but my memory may be off. I do recall the author was famous and wrote children’s books.

  47. Dal,

    I was wondering why you haven’t set up your own YouTube channel on Forrests Hidden Treasure, maybe you have and I just don’t know about it.

    Ronnie the Scot

  48. Does anyone think the clues start outside the search area and end up in the Rocky Mountains or does everyone think all 9 clues are within the search area.

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