The Hidey Space…

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This is the place to discuss the the space where the chest is hidden. Is it in a cave, a hole in the ground, in a river or creek, behind a waterfall, out in the open? Tell us what you think the resting place for the chest looks like.

414 thoughts on “The Hidey Space…

    • The beautiful gaze of Santa Fe, the poplar trees, the wildlife, water not far, the ability for one to thrust himself from a height and not walk away, the last inch is what counts, not far to walk to, and ponderosa Pine just above the pinions and juniper. Water country is above the arid broad valley. Tarry scant of the remaining blaze. History tells where Meek would have traveled and now we do in old faithful, on another road. A dry dusty trail quests thirst. Nature calls. Some drawings are educational, some capture the moment or season. I now have Omar’s note, you didn’t pay attention and must have been lost in the wood next to your car or on the trail. Odious and Merry Colorful Christmas. Bronze is forever. Other colors change as time passes. Nature … Red, black, then green.
      Stay safe if you are near the solid rock because history washes away footprints in the sand. The hidey place.

  1. It is half exposed as the poem tells you. Probably in a crevice. I don’t think it is in water but you have to through water or around it to get to it.

    • The poem tells you it’s half exposed? Amanda, I don’t interpret the poem that way.

      What in the poem says it’s half exposed?

  2. I think it’s within a small rocky outcropping next to a river or stream, possibly covered by a few rocks on top just to make it hard to see, but not particularly hard to get to.

  3. In an opening amongst a pine thicket with a log laying over it.
    Not buried but covered well enough so as to not gump into it.

    • That seems reasonable; if the TC is not there, then two other places nearby can be searched . . . all on the same search hike. I’m lovin’ it. IMO.

        • It was a tidbit I ran across couple of years ago. In nature, the occurrence of two stacked stones could be coincidental…”three” stacked stones could be coincidental, but not likely. Three stacked stones(ducks) were common and sometimes included a pointer on top…wink wink.

          • This is interesting. I’ve forgotten that’s what they’re called. My first cairn I saw was an earthen one with a bent twig on top. I took a photo of it my first year not realizing what I was really seeing. When I got home, I looked at my photos and saw it and immediately thought of Mr. Fenn’s stick people. The following year I returned to my spot and checked it out, and found it to be just a earthen cairn. The Chase has been a lot of fun.

          • It is not surprising to not have remembered…this is not a common term…but true. The wink wink was to refer to the “one” duck with the pointer…

          • PD,
            I only offer suggestions… don’t listen to me… I’m ducking mad.
            I mean, I like Ducks.

    • I am still haunted a little by the cairn that I dismantled but did not dig beneath in my second search trip detailed amongst my entrees in the others adventures section. The cairn was right where I thought the poem led but by the time I physically got there I could not believe the position was appropriate. Felt too exposed to be the hidey spot. I also was firm in the belief that Fenn did not bury it. I did not take the search too seriously at the time but now wish I had probed the earth with a stick at least.

      • FF originally intended to throw his body on the chest and had wording for such in a previous version of the poem that said something along the lines of ‘Take the treasure chest but leave my bones…’.

        If the treasure chest were buried, he’d essentially have 2 choices:

        1) Throw himself on the ground above where the chest is buried and leave some other type of clue with his bones to:
        a) indicate that these are his remains (for an active searcher), who would presumably have found this spot and knows to dig here, OR
        b) communicate to an accidental finder of his bones that there is a treasure buried beneath his bones.

        For either to work, FF would have to ensure that his body remained above the chest (and not get carted off by some hungry wild animal, for example) and that his clue also remained (didn’t deteriorate in the weather, get blown away by the wind, etc.).

        2) Dig up the chest and:
        a) Throw himself in the hole with it, leaving both unearthed
        b) Engineer a way to rebury the treasure chest with him on top of it

        Each of these dig up scenarios, IMO, aren’t plausible, because FF digging up the chest presumably would negate clues in the poem that direct the searcher to dig here, etc., and I am not sure FF wants to take that away from the person who comes up with the winning solve.

        IMO, it is much more plausible that the chest is hidden (which includes the possibility of it being only partially buried) which makes throwing himself on the treasure chest a very real possibility and such action would not otherwise detract from the solve for his published poem.

        Just food for thought and IMO.

    • IT’s all BSing Sam.

      If your looking for information from bloggers.. lol.. ya might as well throw the poem in the trash. Bloggers, Searchers, Explorers or whatever anyone wants to be called, are simple talking about.. WhatIFs
      But, ya can rent a boat and paddle anywhere on the swamp, I’m sure many folks will be happy to tell you.. they have all the information you’re looking for.

  4. IMI (In My Interpretation) of the poem, it is almost certainly “in” something, but in saying that you’d have to consider other hints – like that it is still subject to the elements…

    I have my wager on a stone pile/formation large enough that a man could fit in (or partially in) to deposit the chest and I’d also wager that those stones are in close proximity to a flowing body of water. If you pick apart some of the words that Fenn uses to describe the resting place of the chest, it is hard to consider much else IMO. It also goes perfectly along with several other statements made by Fenn, both in the poem and otherwise. These are paraphrased, but you’ll at least see where I am coming from:
    – MANY times Fenn has said that he doesn’t want anyone to get hurt – this is important with a phrase from the poem
    – “I have gone alone IN there” – could be interpreted as “the wood”, like “in nature”, but I suspect otherwise.
    – “look quickly down your quest to cease” – I personally believe that this sort of helps the theory that it is in something. I just don’t fathom the chest , very obviously looking like something of value, is completely in the open. If it were, IMO, someone will have incidentally found it or it would be a strong possibility which Fenn himself has already put to rest that the probability of an accidental discovery is highly unlikely if not impossible.
    – “but tarry scant with marvel gaze” – This is the part of the poem that I think points back to Fenn’s not wanting anyone to get hurt. He associates wherever you are right now (looking at the chest) with, at minimum, a potential for some level of danger – to keep you safe he specifically tells us here not to stay in this place for an extended period of time, thus minimizing the potential for harm. “linger short with curious admiration”.

    Obviously these are all just opinions, and I while I have what I consider a solid theory – I haven’t been to my theorized resting place. Curious to see what some others think!

    Happy Contemplating!

    • Don, IMO tarry scant means to get the chest ans get out before someone else sees you. I keep thinking that the hidey space was special to him as a boy or young man. If that is true then the very private space may not be so private anymore. I think it is relative close, less than 500 ft, to a road but out of sight of the road.
      Also IMO “gone in there alone” could very well mean a Park or forest.
      All speculation on my part.
      He has stated that it is not a man made structure.

      • Yes that is my fear. When you are in a place like that it is hard to believe that it could be the hidey spot. If he ever really considered dying there it would certainly not be appropriate to be in plain sight. The treasure would be found as quickly as the body.

      • Not Obsessed, please tell us specifically where “He
        has stated that it is not a man made structure”.
        In other words, show us where we can find that
        statement. Thanks in advance.

      • Tighterfocus: I would ask for clarification from Not Obsessed — what is “it” in his sentence “He has stated that it is not a man made structure.” What isn’t? Obviously the chest IS a manmade structure.

        AFAIK, the only public quote from Forrest that is germane is this one from Scrapbook 35: “I said on the Today show that the treasure is not associated with any structure. Some people say I have a desire to mislead. That is not true. There are no notes to be found or safety deposit boxes to be searched. The clues can lead you to the treasure, and it will be there waiting when you arrive.”

        *Treasure* is not associated. Multiple ways to read that. The least restrictive is that the specific location of the chest is not associated with any structure. But he didn’t unambiguously say that *none* of the clues are associated with any structure. Still: I trust Cynthia’s private email exchange that she shared with us: that home of Brown isn’t associated with a structure. And based on that, I’ve extrapolated that to mean that none of the clues are. But I wouldn’t kill a solution based on that assumption.

        • “I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure. f.”

          As they same in comics;
          ‘NUFF SAID

  5. Good morning folks. Being the magician I think he is, I’m thinking it very well could be in plain sight, perhaps a cairn as PDenver suggested above.

    Pinatubocharlie

  6. I think you will find it on the ground, below the blaze, in a scary place, by a dry creek, too far to drive to, after you have turned at the Brown house below a hot spring. That’s what I think…

  7. I’ve just been to Edinburgh Castle to retrieve the Treasure Chest, I am now back home sitting on top of it.

    Ronnie the Scot

  8. It’s inside a hollowed out petrified fallen tree. It’s at the end of the log though where it’s too dark to see the chest. So you will have to be brave to crawl in there. But once you begin to crawl towards the chest you are “brave and IN the wood”.

  9. A lot of opinions have been given to the ‘hidey space’. Which of the following do you think is most likely?
    ♢ Lying on the surface. (hidden by rock(s), bark, or other debris).
    ♢ In or under something wood. (a tree, log, stump, etc.).
    ♢ Under something rock. (a space under a boulder or pile of rocks etc.).
    ♢ A hole in the ground. (covered by a rock (or rocks), bark, or other).
    ♢ Buried in the ground. (covered with dirt, sand, gravel or mud).
    ♢ Other. (ideas?).

    • “Which of the following do you think is most likely?”

      ♢ Other: number one on my most-likely list is “not in the wet part of Great Salt Lake.”

      Beyond that I won’t speculate – there is no number two on that list.

      Why subconsciously handicap or harden one’s mind’s-eye so far in advance of being in its vicinity? Better to go with soft eyes, open to everything. You spot the owl or hawk hidden in the branches with a slightly indirect and unfocused look, and let the form come to you rather than trying to force-stare it out of the surroundings.

      Jake

    • Hi randawg…..all is just in my opinion.

      The hidey spot….is a place that will play tribute to long lost warriors of past conflicts…. AND probably will be like what he tells us in TTOTC….like the gravestones he found in Nam…..

      I envision FF placing the chest in tall grass, in a meadow, and one will just…”happen” upon it, as he did with the gravestones. It is concealed, not buried, yet it sort of is, and someone will know right where to go.

      “Buried” and lost forever, until found by chance.

      I also DON’T think FF really wants that, because he chose not to die with the chest, but instead, give someone else a piece of his life – one will be reliving or reenacting the same moment he did. Why not with the chest.

      That is a thrill…..don’t you think?

      • Given Fenn’s interests, I do think it’s probable that the spot has had human occupation in the past.
        But I don’t believe it’s in a place that would likely ever be found by chance.

        • “But I don’t believe it’s in a place that would likely ever be found by chance.” – randawg

          Logic dictates that “someone” found the hidey spot by chance. The only other option is that Mr. Fenn had prior knowledge of the spot before he went there. But then the person passing along the information to him would have been the person that happened upon the spot. I hope you are all able to follow my line of thinking on this. Either Mr. Fenn found it, or the information was passed along over the generations person to person.

          I suspect Mr. Fenn found the spot at an earlier time in his life, (maybe with someone else along with, maybe not), and then “kept an eye on it”, to see if others happened upon it. When he observed that no one did “stumble across” the spot, he knew he had found a spot to hide Indulgence.

          The other possibility is that Mr. Fenn was on the receiving end of information passed along down through the generations, and knowing he was the last one in line with that particular bit of information, he chose instead to pass along that bit of information through this chase.

          If it is the second reason, then many of us have been looking at this chase the wrong way.

          IMO, that’s why no one has found it yet.

          • Swwot;

            I think it is the former, not the latter. I think that Forrest found this special spot as a boy, and that he has many, many special memories of things done here. The views are terrific, the wildlife abundant and the perfect “fort” for a boy of 10 – 12. The perfect “Hidey Hole”.

            Forrest, Skippy, and probably their Dad know/knew of this “Special” place. “Special” because of the many memories created here.

            I think that it also has significance related to Forrest’s interest in Native American life in the past.

            All just supposition on my part – JDA

          • I have wondered if there is a picture in the chest of either him and a friend or one of them at the hidey space years ago. That would be a nice addition to the treasure.

          • Of course Fenn or one of his family members originally found the spot by chance. I meant that a searcher (or random hiker) is not likely to.
            IMO.

          • I believe that all of you are on to something… I’ve been thinking along these lines for some time myself…. An undiscovered archeological site, littered with relics! Unfortunately, it doesn’t make the task of finding it any easier… Now we are looking for an otherwise unimpressive site whose archeological significance can only be determined by botg…
            It seems to only broaden the possibilities!

          • And far enough off of the beaten path that it hasn’t been discovered by accident…

        • Hi swwot: my guess is that Forrest and his father (and maybe Skippy, too) found the general area together during one of their family summer trips. It’s unlikely that Marvin could have been told of this spot as a boy himself: not too easy to get to Wyoming or Montana (assuming the chest is in one of those two states) from Texas in the 1920s or earlier. It would be interesting to know when Marvin first went to Yellowstone — perhaps Dal knows.

          But there would be a difference between Forrest being taken to the general location as a boy, and the *specific* location in that area that Forrest chose to hide the chest. And I’m reminded of the paragraph from Flywater:

          “Those great places, which were personal secrets to me then, are now busy with the flourish of fishermen and women who cast a midge or floating cadis upon those same waters, never knowing I had been there, or even caring yes or no. I always thought that space was mine alone, and many of the memories there bred are even now still so personal that they exclude the intrusion of strangers. How dare they go there?”

          If the hiding place is not far from popular fishing waters, it might not be surprising that so many have been within 500 feet of the chest (and quite unawares). But thankfully, this isn’t horseshoes (double omegas not withstanding); close doesn’t count.

          • Zap,

            Mr. Fenn has said something along the lines of, “Two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead.” It is my opinion that if Indulgence is not found before Mr. Fenn passes, the secret dies out of “waking human knowledge”. And until Indulgence is picked up in the wood, that secret is safe with Mr. Fenn.

            I am not so sure that it is within 200 or 500 feet of a fishing stream, because I have my doubts that he found this spot as a boy. He may have, but my hunch is that he found it because he was looking for it, or at least something like it. I think that way because nobody else seems to have “stumbled upon it”, and nobody will. We really need to start thinking like Mr. Fenn, not so much about Mr. Fenn. But what do I know, I don’t have Indulgence, do I?

          • Hi Swwot,

            “Mr. Fenn has said something along the lines of, “Two people can keep a secret, if one of them is dead.” Yes: this is another one of those aberrations/anomalies — he altered the Ben Franklin quote: “Three can keep a secret, if two of them are dead.”

            “It is my opinion that if Indulgence is not found before Mr. Fenn passes, the secret dies out of “waking human knowledge”.

            Ah, but which secret? The secret of the chest’s location, or the secret of who else knew? Or both? I’m not on my home computer to check my files for the exact quote, but I believe Forrest once said that his father would know where he hid the chest.

          • Zap,

            Yes, both secrets at once. I do think that this was his intention all along and he has lived longer than he himself thought he would. Hope that doesn’t come across as too morbid, but I am beginning to wonder if the whole “experience” of the search would be at its current fever pitch if he had passed within a year of his placing the chest in the wood? But that’s a whole ‘nuther rabbit hole.

            It’s another reason I tend to think that he found the hidey spot later in life. It is my opinion he wanted folks to research him and his work, not necessarily his life – if that makes any sense. FWIW

      • CharlieM: I can’t find a direct quote from Forrest where he claims the treasure chest isn’t in a tree, though I certainly think that idea is inconsistent with his original plan: “I told myself that with my last gasping breath, I was going to fling himself on top of that treasure chest and let my bones go back to the dirt.” Also, trees don’t live forever and are vulnerable to forest fires, bark beetles, landslides, etc. Forrest said he tried to think of everything, and if so, hiding the chest in a tree wouldn’t be very sage.

        On a related note, there was this MW Q&A from 6/24/2014:

        “Did you really say the blaze is a white streak, as has been rumored? Thank you. ~Deb”

        Forrest’s reply:

        “Thanks Deb, No, I did not say that. There is a lot of bad information floating around the blogs and many posts that are not well thought out. One person said (I’m paraphrasing) “He said the treasure is hidden in the trees. Then he contradicted himself and said it was in the sun. How could it be both.” Makes me wonder if that person has ever been in the forest.f”

        • Zap-
          The “white streak” blaze concept started with me. I was sitting in Forrest’s office while he was being interviewed by the press. The journalist asked him a sort of rhetorical question about the blaze and Forrest responded by asking the question right back…
          He said something like-
          What is a blaze? A horse’s white mark on his forehead is a blaze….and then Forrest mentioned several other things that could be called a blaze… I noted immediately that all these things seemed to be white…
          After this interview the journalist and I went over to Desertphiles ranch where the first Fennboree was being held. While there I was discussing this “blaze” moment with Desertphile and I mentioned that I thought it was curious that all the examples of a blaze that Forrest mentioned, were white. I further said that I wondered if that could mean that the blaze was white.
          Someone eavesdropping on our conversation heard what I said and contorted it to say that Forrest said the blaze is white…
          In fact…Forrest never said that…
          I simply wondered about it based on the examples of blazes that he named…
          But this person went ahead and made the all “untrue” statement on several blogs that Forrest said -the blaze is white-
          Forrest never said that.
          We must be very cautious of “quotes” that cannot be cited.

        • Could this be a mistake by FF and mentioning the chest is in a forest?

          “…..Makes me wonder if that person has ever been in the forest.f”

          Hmmmm…

      • CharlieM-
        The “not in a tree” thought came from Stephanie very early in the chase. She reported that Forrest wrote or told her-
        “It’s not in a tree but it’s surrounded by trees. Of course everything is surrounded by trees if you go out far enough.”
        Some folks believe it…some do not…
        This was at a time when Stephanie’s word was trusted and also at a time when she and Forrest were communicating via email regularly…
        I personally have always taken it as a true quote from Forrest…but he has never claimed it as far as I know.

        • I had never given that statement a second thought but it’s interesting that she said (that he said) “surrounded by trees”.
          He could have said “there are trees nearby” but he chose to say surrounded which means “to enclose on all sides”. In that context ‘everything’ in a given search area is not surrounded by trees.

          • @randawg, this tree comment is much like his “no need to move large rocks” comment. Why “large” rocks, are we to assume that it may be required to move rocks that are not considered large?

          • Everything Mr Fenn says should be considered a potential clue. Especially when he makes comments as to the specific nature of the hidey space.

    • Seems to me that ithe chest must have rocks around it, or it’s in a crevice as you suggest for it to be stable for centuries as Fenn intended. Also, I do not expect to find it in an “open” area, like a meadow. With Fenn’s comment about there not being a human trail in close vicinity, yet he knows that more than one searcher has walked past within 200 feet, I think the treasure is in a narrow canyon or ravine.

      • Tom B, if you believe that FF knows that more than one SEARCHER — for the FF treasure chest — has walked past the TC within 200 feet of it, please tell us where you got this info.

        Thanks in advance.

        • Tighterfocus: Forrest used the plural “searchers” in this quote (Forrest Gets Mail #9):

          Q: “Are there signs that people are getting closer to solving your puzzle? How many clues have people solved now?”

          FF: “Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.”

          “Searchers” not “a searcher.” At the risk of repeating myself, there is further proof from “The Lure” post-screening Q&A (May 18th, 2017):

          “How do you know searchers have been within 200 feet of the treasure?”

          Forrest answers: “Well, because there … people have told me exactly where they were, and that’s the only reason I know. And, and, that 200 feet I think is pretty accurate. But there weren’t very many people within 200 … lots of people within 500 feet of the treasure. But, uh, the people that were with(in) 200 feet didn’t know that they were that close to the treasure, and they walked right on by. And of course I would never tell ‘em that, ‘cuz they’d, uh, they’d try to remember where they had been.”

          Pretty cut and dried to me. More than one searcher has been within about 200 feet.

  10. On the question of features of the hidey place, there is one possible clue from the Santa Fe New Mexican story:

    http://www.santafenewmexican.com/life/features/forrest-fenn-strengthens-resolve-as-controversy-over-hidden-treasure-grows/article_b13e3993-8fd4-563c-a2f2-58a799eca24c.html

    “Even if Fenn wanted to stop people from following clues published in a poem at the end of his memoir, The Thrill of the Chase, there is no way to make that happen. No one dedicated to the hunt would listen, he said, unless he retrieved the treasure himself and posted a photo of the gold on the internet, all covered in mud from the wilderness where it is hidden.”

    • But Zap-
      That is not a quote from Forrest…
      That is simply summarizing what Forrest told the writer and it is not in quotes so it is second party hearsay…just saying…
      I know Bruce and I trust him as a journalist and suspect that the non quote is accurate…but still…
      It’s not in quotes so I can only assume that it is summarized rather than the exact words of Forrest…

      • Apologies — I should have made it unambiguously clear that the quotes were from the journalist’s article, not verbatim information from Forrest. So there is opportunity for journalistic license with the comment about mud (though it would seem to be an unusual detail to include if the idea hadn’t been put in his head by Forrest).

        • “Mr. Fenn, In your interview with New Mexico True Stories, you mentioned that you know that the treasure is wet. I checked out the date of that interview and it looks like you said that in a February, which could mean that you knew that it had snowed or rained at the site of the treasure chest, or simply because of higher water.
          Now we are in mid-summer, and if we assume that no storms have passed through recently, would you know that the treasure is wet now? ~Thanks, B

          Wet + dirt = mud Who woulda thunk it? JDA

          • OOPS cut off reply – sorry
            Yes B, physics tells me the treasure is wet”. f – NOW wet + dirt = mud etc. JDA

    • Copper – Forrest has said that no tools are required. It MAY be “buried” but I lean more towards Interred. – more to the idea of a hollowed out place with Indulgence placed inside and probably a “capstone” placed over it.
      . In “Charmay and Me” in TFTW Forrest describes the following: “…I carefully removed the flagstone lid. To our astonishment, we discovered a black, smoke-smudged pottery jar that had been buried up to its rim under the floor. Inside the jar rested a rectangular painted bowl….”
      This pretty much describes what I think the searcher will find once he/she finds Indulgence – JMO – JDA

  11. Hmmmm. So you could simply sweep the sand or dirt away perhaps? Not necessarily dig but uncover the top layer? Interesting. But I hope you are wrong because my metal detector didn’t pick anything up. And if he didn’t bury his treasure there then I’m going to bury my own, because this place is truly the best.

    I’m also asking Santa for a better metal detector because I’m pretty sure my Dad got mine from Walmart. There were no beeps that day. What a sad day that was.

  12. FF said (paraphrasing)- my father would know where I hid the treasure.

    He also said in one of the books (TFTW , I think) they would hide their stuff at the end of each summer so it didn’t have to be driven all the back to Texas.

    My summation is that TC is hidden either where they would hide their stuff, some kind of hollowed out hole or space that could be covered in some way or in a similar place that his father would recognize instantly upon reading the poem.

    Just my thoughts.

  13. Sean: can you provide the quote wherein Forrest indicated his father would know where he hid the treasure? I agree with the premise for my own reasons, but I have not read anything direct from Forrest that supports it.

    • I read that as well. It’s in-between. A stop off. The midway point was always the most exciting. I don’t have the quote but I remember reading it. I remember my Dad taking me duck hunting one fall. We were shooting ptarmigan. The best part was the gas station on the way to Manley. It’s the anticipation. It’s being with your parents.

    • Zap,

      No, I can’t. I don’t keep my own database (yet) but I’ve read it a few times so I believe it’s accurate. I couldn’t find it on a quick search of TarryScant. I know that violates the strict standards of accountability we have here (which I love, btw) but I will keep my eyes out and post when I see it again.

  14. If you had a valuable item to hide in the woods how would you go about it? I don’t mean the special place you chose, but the actual ‘spot’. If you were in a hurry you might push it into the space under a boulder or cover it with bark or leaf litter. Or maybe scoop out a shallow ‘grave'(?)
    But if you had lots of time, …or even years to think about it I’m sure you could do better than that. It would be a spot that would be safe and secure and provide protection for the object. And look natural as if nobody had ever been there before. A place that would not be disturbed accidentally by things like erosion or animals (or humans). The spot would be cleverly thought out yet simple in concept.
    I like the idea of a shallow hole just deep enough for the object to fit into covered by a rock or rocks. Simple but effective. As a wise man once said: “Rock is permanent. I like rock.”
    🙂

  15. This is in my own string of notes, and I didn’t put a reference, so I don’t remember where I found it….

    “FF has said some kid looking for a new fishing hole is the person most likely to find it accidentally.”

    Anyone recognize this, and is it valid, or not?

    • Hi HaydukeCC: don’t know how much validity to attach to that. It was a statement (not a Fenn quote) made by whomever mrt41114 is on another blog.

  16. Hear Me All,

    All of the below is IN MY HUMBLE OPINION:

    The Hidey Space

    I have found a large rock blaze in my search area. It has a big opening on one side, and there is only a dark shadow below it. However, with GE I can get a good angle in front of the opening, and by reflected light, I can make out specific shapes under this rock blaze.

    The first is a cylinder shaped bottle or can, straight sides, with a beveled top. It looks like a metal can just sitting there, straight up. It is conceivable that this is some kind of trash left by a past hiker.

    I also see a strange hour glass shaped thing that looks like a light, with purple on top and white on the bottom. This is the most out of place shape you would expect to find under a rock in the middle of nowhere. It appears to be connected to something behind it.

    In the photo, I also see another very cool thing. The shape is like something I have seen in the books written by Forrest Fenn. Very compelling indeed.

    I took several photos until I got one which allows the enhancement to show the items. Looking under a rock from outer space is not an exact science of course. Until now, I didn’t even realize I could do this.

    I am following the clues, and this rock blaze does fit within the parameters of the steps in the poem. It is not the only one I have found. There is actually another one which forms a perfect F in the rocks.

    For me this is frustrating because I did not check these things out the last time I was in this area. These blaze possibilities are all on the other side of my creek, and outside of my canyon down. All of my previous explorations had been within the canyon itself.

    Franklin
    “Imagination is more important then knowledge”

  17. Keep in mind that Forrest parked his car and made two trips to the hiding spot and back without being discovered. And, he must have expected that the chances of him being discovered were minimal, in order to even take the chance. I suggest that taking this into consideration can eliminate a significant percentage of proposed hiding places.

      • @HaydukeCC,

        As an IT professional, I must ask…

        What is an “innerweb”? LOL

        Internet, Intranet, WideAreaNet, MetroNet, LocalAreaNet, WorlWideWeb, and many others, but now we have an “InnerWeb”? C’mon! 🙂

        • ha, it was sarcasm, used often among computer nerds. I held back on using “teh innerwebs”. Gore would have been proud.

          🙂

          • Thanks for appreciating my sense of humor.

            BTW, I have enjoyed your posts here on DAL.net (aka dalnet, interwebb)

            You obviously have a lot of experience in the Montana / Wyoming search region …

            Best of luck on your future searching!

            –Fennatical

    • he would just have to avoid peak tourist season so later in the fall made sense when school had started or was close to starting.

  18. Thank you Dal for keeping the quotes straight.; means a lot to me.

    Just got back from my third expedition…Colorado is cold at 10,000 feet and I will bring oxygen if I ever go back there again …no place for old biddies or a flatlander for that matter. Feeling blessed, be safe everyone!
    Most perplexing to me is “…in the wood…”. Insights anyone?

    • Boaz

      This is just my opinion:

      “If you are brave and in the wood” might just mean you were like a Native American brave, or scout, who followed the signs correctly to lead his people to the new desired destination. The part about being “in the wood” may mean simply, that the new location is just somewhere in the mountains, or it could mean the wood inside the treasure chest itself.

      Some of my thoughts here. Just opinions.

      Franklin

  19. So I’m wondering if the original hidey space that FF thought of back in 1988/89 is the same space where he ultimately hid the TC? Is it possible that there is more than one spot that would qualify as having “precious memories” and lots of meaning to him? Did he say definitively, that there was and is only one place?

    • Box-
      You should listen to the Moby Dickens Books Signing video…maybe 3 or so minutes in Forrest says the following:
      “My plan was … If I was going to die of cancer … They said I had a one in five chance of living three years. They told me I had a year probably anyway. I decided I knew where I was going to hide the treasure chest. I told myself with my last gasping breath I was going to go out there and fling myself on that treasure chest and let my bones go back to the dirt. It was a great plan. The trouble with it was that I got well and ruined the story.”

      The video is here:
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RzrIu3hMec&list=PLg2bCqbxRU9VRTmYsKwrL8q08qvwLSMnk&index=10

      A transcription of the video is here:
      https://dalneitzel.com/2017/02/28/moby_dickens/

      There are other places as well, where Forrest ties together the place where he wanted to end his life as the place where the chest is hidden…

      • Thank you so much Dal! I will check that out. My compliments to you on an exceptionally thorough and beautifully put -together website.
        – BT

  20. Also, I seem to recall an interview where FF talks about “looking down” at the TC spot, as from the “crest” of a hill. I specifically remember him using the word “crest”. Does this ring a bell for anyone?

  21. I used to think the treasure was at my “X” marks the spot location, until I went there and it wasn’t! Now I believe the correct solve puts you close to the chest but you still have to walk around and search a little to spot it. Am I imagining this or has Forrest said that after you solve the poem, or solve the 9 clues, there is still some more work or searching to be done? Or is it other searchers only who have said something like this?

    • I can only recall Fenn saying that the clues would “lead you right to it”. This is why I think the blaze must somehow mark the spot. Or else how would one go about pin-pointing a 10″ X 10″ box in the wilderness, even if you did narrow it down to, say, a few hundred yards?

    • Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey. Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help?f.

    • If you find the eight clues, then you will be close to the treasure. IMO

      But the poem says “if wise” then talks about being “brave” and about “wood”.

      Fen said he does not like trails.

      Then one would expect him to leave some trail and enter the forest to hide the treasure.

      Keeping this in mind and remembering that he walked “less than a few miles” to hide the treasure in two journeys on foot:

      You can imagine that he has hidden the treasure a ~ 1/2 mile from where he stopped the car. I M H O

      And he made it clear that the BLAZE could only be found BOTG.

  22. not at all. If u have solved clues up to the blaze, u know how tricky they are and I don’t think it is simple.

  23. Bringing the 200 and 500 foot discussion over here on this thread – or at least trying to.

    OK gang, without giving too much away, which means I have to be somewhat vague, I can see in my mind’s eye how folks can be in both camps at the same time. And this has been hashed about most thoroughly, I believe.

    But here’s what I want to add to stir things up a bit. Has Mr. Fenn definitively said that he hid the “gold and trinkets” inside Indulgence? Or has it always been inferred? We know the olive jar and his biography are inside the chest, but could the “loot” be someplace else “in the wood”? We know he took two trips from his vehicle, but does he emphatically say he went to the same spot twice AND put the loot inside Indulgence? This is another way that a person could be both 200 and 500 feet away from the “treasure”, by being between them.

    I know that some of you are quote search experts and can either bolster my assumption or shoot it down pretty quick. If Indulgence and the “loot” are separate, how does that affect the nine clues being used to find them both?

    • Swwot: I’m pretty sure I can dig up a quote for you that assures that the loot is inside the chest… give me a few minutes…

    • Look at Scrapbook 163 – It says: “It took you two trips from your car to get ALL of the treasure to THE HIDING SPOT (singular) because it weighed 42 pounds? (Combination of chest and contents)
      Yes\

      Caps and Parens are my inserts to highlight important items – JDA

    • Okay, I’d start with the Richard Eeds interview. I think the following extract may address your point:

      Eeds: So, gold 6-7 years ago. $800-$900 an ounce? Or was it over a thousand?

      Fenn: Yeah, I think it was like $1200-$1300 an ounce. But you know, if you read the prognosis on gold, they’re saying it’s going to go to $5000 an ounce. When that happens, this treasure chest is going to be worth a lot of money.

      Dal: But it’s not just gold that’s in there right? We’ve seen some of the things that are in there.

      Fenn: Well there’s two little carved ancient Chinese jade carved carvings. [how’s that for redundancy?!]

      Eeds: Right

      Fenn: There are some pre-Columbian gold figures. Waka’s, and cast gold frogs that date … and there’s a beautiful Tyrolian and Sinu necklace that dates to 2,000 years old with wonderful fetishes made with quartz crystal. And cast gold jaguar claws and it’s, it’s … The person that finds that treasure chest and puts it on his lap and opens that lid is going to faint or start laughing. One of the two.

      Dal: Forrest, this chest weighs 42 pounds.

      Eeds: But it’s small enough to put on your lap.

      Fenn: Well there are 20.2 troy pounds of gold in that treasure chest, and 265 gold coins. And a lot of them have numismatic value way beyond the spot of gold.

      • OK – white flag is waving. I don’t want to get fixated on a possible solution. But some things got a little easier if there were two caches in the wood. Thanx folks!

  24. I haven’t contributed anything of substance in awhile (mourned my dear white Persian cat, Lila; retired from one of my jobs [more time for searching!]; gardening like a madwoman), so here’s something that may help someone:

    Indochine soldiers were repatriated and buried standing up.

  25. A possibility for the nature of the hidey space. Many searchers have rightly focused on the first line of the poem — specifically the words “in there,” and have tried to resolve that with Forrest’s statements that the treasure is not in a mine, cave or tunnel. Some have suggested that in a forest works okay, and I agree. But there’s another possibility potentially hinted at by a couple Scrapbooks. Compare this picture of the Mummy Joe cave from SB 92:

    https://dalneitzel.com/wp-content/uploads/2014/08/digmummucavesite60s.jpg?x36947

    with the fourth picture in SB 172 from San Lazaro pueblo:

    https://dalneitzel.com/2017/04/05/scrapbook-one-hundred-seventy-two/

    Now, with those two images in your mind, consider the last stanza from Invictus that Forrest slightly misquoted at the very end of the Moby Dickens bookshop video on 11/2/2013:

    Out of the night that covers me,
    Dark is the pit from pole to pole,
    I thank whatever gods may be
    For my unconquerable soul.

    Forrest then concludes with “I think that’s a good place to stop, don’t you?”

    Impressions?

      • How about…*Doug Hyde in stone*….? There are many of these throughout the writings. Are they *hints*, nudges…or just good stories?
        The *correct* interpretation of Fenn’s poem holds the answers.

        • For me, they are far more than jusat “good stories.” I see the Two sculptures – One “Rotund one” – 24″ tall. One more slender 27″ tall, with “Ear lobes” or ear rings dangling down as “hints”. They fit into my solve as “Guardian Warriors”.

          He also mentions hundreds of stones lying around, and also 20 stones and a Marquee – I think that these are also hints – but what do I know? – Probably NADA – JDA

    • Hi Zap, the term ‘in there’ can be understood as a pitt based on those hints you listed. Any other line in the poem can be used to describe that hidey place???

      • Picture #4 in the second link is of a Kiva. I think that this well could be a hint – but who knows? If a “Kiva-like” place, how is one to get to the bottom and out again? Any hints left around regarding this? HUMMMM??? JDA

      • Oz10: perhaps “look quickly down” 😉 For a couple years I’ve actually had a pretty clever answer to the meaning of those pictures and the Invictus reference, but I felt it was safe to at least share the links and let people ponder their possible connections.

        • Got it. It seems like oversimplification of the clues and hints but it doesn’t make it less probable that it is in a pitt.

          • The Pitt connection has/had been there from the beginning. Que sera sera.

        • Hi Oz10: it’s hard to hold a pit in “high regard,” so no, I don’t think the treasure is in a pit. I think it’s just part of a hint to a landmark.

      • Foundations of an abandoned hut. Like on FF’s nephew’s farm.

        They are just stones heaped together, they are not exactly a structure.

        It can be considered a gap.

        They demarcate an “In” perimeter.

    • exactly Zap… why do you think he writes “Well”…. at the beginning of some sentences in TTOTC… he never “Talks” in such a manner.

      • Hi James — yes, he does start over 20 sentences in TTOTC with “Well”. There is also A Farewell to Arms. 😉

        • how many sentences exact Zap? 22 or 23? I forget.

          IMHO if you have the number correct that’s hinting at something that will lead you to the TC location if you have the right “your creek”

        • Hi James — 22 occasions as the first word in a sentence, including the first word of the first chapter. 8 other instances when not appearing as the first word in the sentence.

          • Lol… Now I understand why you recently posted that ff has given hundreds of hints everywhere. Can we give ff some flexibility in how he wants to start his sentences without calling it a hint? How else could he communicate? Conf. bias?

            Well, this sounds like an echo chamber. << see what I did there? that will be a hint.

          • Oz10: *I* don’t consider the word “well” to be a hint (except possibly for its ubiquitous LL/ELL that is found in the proper names that Forrest uses throughout his books). Maybe James does — I was just supplying the data he asked for. I’m a scientist — I know what confirmation bias is. And I also know when statistical anomalies are deliberate design elements.

          • I never had the occasion to be subjected to an echo chamber prior to this experience, before.

          • Zaphod, no humble pie??? Being a scientist didn’t give you any advantage over anybody else here. Accepting it is the first step.

          • Oz10: you are welcome to think that having an analytical mind doesn’t give me an advantage if it makes you feel better.

          • How’s that working out for ya Zap, seriously?

            I don’t know what kind of field of science you’re in… But a theory having many parts has to get past the first step to have a chance of working out. What part of your theory do you think stumped you?
            Legitimate question, Because it seems to me if you have correctly pass the third clue, and possibly the fourth… you should be well on your way to the chest.

            Not long ago fenn said some may have solved the first four clues, only he wasn’t certain.
            Then, his gut feeling about the chest might be found this summer. ‘Statistically’ if you have up to, or more than, 1/2 of theory correct… the rest should fall into place rather well.

            What ever happened to the idea of “What took me so long?” That we all should be saying to ourselves when all is said and done…
            I mean, as bright as you are, you claim the clues get harder as one moves through them. fenn claims they get ‘progressively easier’… you claim an analogical mind should give you an advantage, yet fenn has stated the challenge will be done mostly by imagination. Your process [ my opinion only ] is a coded solution. fenn has eliminated, the knowledge of codes and ciphers will not assist a searcher…

            I could go on… yet, all I’m hear is your thoughts / interpretations are completely opposite of what we have been told by the guy who blueprinted the poem.
            You were certain that you would produce a find this time out, came back running on empty, and still want to argue points of being analogical, and absolutely positive you’re in the correct spot.. with at least the first clue solved correctly.

            Throw us a bone… seriously. Something we can actually have a discussion over, without dancing around excuses [ on a blog dedicate to those type of discussions] and not how smart anyone is or is not, or how many pieces of framed paper is hanging on one’s wall.

          • So Seeker, how’s it working out for me? By what measure of success? If binary (i.e. chest or no chest), then it has worked just as poorly for me as for everyone else. If base-9, then I think I’m doing fine so far.

            “What part of your theory do you think stumped you?” To use Forrest’s words, if I knew that, I’d go right to the chest! 😉
            Wherever the miscue is, it’s not in the starting location (IMO).

            “Legitimate question, Because it seems to me if you have correctly pass the third clue, and possibly the fourth… you should be well on your way to the chest.”

            I know you and others keep toeing that line, but the evidence suggests that solving two clues in the first 2 years, or up to 4 clues in the first 5 years, has not led to an announcements of treasure recovery. Of course, you will counter that the people who have solved two clues or more had no idea they had done so, but I think that’s a cop-out.

            “‘Statistically’ if you have up to, or more than, 1/2 of theory correct… the rest should fall into place rather well.”

            When you reach the point of solving a few clues, you may feel differently about that.

            “What ever happened to the idea of “What took me so long?” That we all should be saying to ourselves when all is said and done…”

            I certainly had that feeling over the winter. Perhaps I’ll have it again someday. But I’ve already had a couple “what took me so long” moments in this Chase — the keyword and the starting location. Those shouldn’t have taken a year, but for me they did.

            “I mean, as bright as you are, you claim the clues get harder as one moves through them.”

            Whether a clue is hard or easy kind of depends on the person, don’t you think? Would you say the next letter in this series is easy or hard?

            O T T F F S S E ?

            My third clue had the same level of surprise for me as the first one, and subjectively I think it’s more difficult than the first. But I solved it faster than the first clue, so does that make it “easier”? What I’m trying to say is that Forrest claiming “they get progressively easier after you discover where the first clue is” is subjective. Hard to judge when you already know the answer.

            “… you claim an analogical mind should give you an advantage…”

            Puzzle-solving is a combination of many skills, including the ability to think logically or analytically. A person who is not organized or systematic in their problem-solving approaches is going to spend a lot of time chasing rabbits down unprofitable holes. Doesn’t mean they won’t ultimately find the solution, but efficiency is a consideration when you aren’t the only one in the race.

            “Your process [ my opinion only ] is a coded solution.”

            Whether I agree or not depends on your definition of “coded.” By the simplest definition of the word, Forrest’s solution is certainly coded — there are clues, after all, that have to be solved. Forrest doesn’t just say, “The treasure is there. Go get it.” The clues are cryptic, hence the solution is coded pretty much by definition. It is the *method* of encoding that you have to figure out.

            You seem perfectly fine accepting that the clues could be metaphorical in nature — and yet that *is* a code. Searchers going digging into dictionaries and extracting synonyms for poem words is ALSO a coded system, but I don’t see you objecting to that either (in spite of Forrest’s warning not to mess with the poem).

            Forrest’s poem is not Kryptos. There is no monoalphabetic or polyalphabetic substitution, Caesar shifting, bible-coding, or matrix-based transposition. I’m in complete agreement with you that Forrest has ruled out these methods (and many others even more convoluted), and I have not and do not employ them in my solutions. The technique I’m using is far simpler and more imaginative than that, and is something that anyone could do — including a child.

          • Zap…I gotta give you a ton of credit for being tenacious. That may be truly understated…your heart is definitely in the right place and I always have admiration for that.
            Always at this time of year I think back to the first days of the Chase and the folks involved. Not many of the originals are still kickin’ their heels up looking for Fenn’s treasure…but I bet that poem is stuck in their head for eternity. *Well*…keep chippin’ at the ole salt block pard, and oh yea…did you say that you thought you were within 500′(feet AJ) this time too? I think you responded yes?

          • *If base-9, then I think I’m doing fine so far.’*
            What does that mean? You said you basically couldn’t get to hoB, so you don’t know if you have TFTW correct either… your stuck where everyone else has been. Ya kinda have to ask why? right?

            *’When you reach the point of solving a few clues, you may feel differently about that.’*
            Well, back at ya.. when you actually get there, we can talk more.

            *’Whether a clue is hard or easy kind of depends on the person, don’t you think? ‘*
            Nope… I think your reading the poem completely different than intended. IF anyone truly understood wwwh and all of the poem, “beforehand” ~ things should fall inline on site… no matter what is expected to be done. [ which all so far seemingly have not, by fenn’s account] Would it be a totally different outcome-?- if they had known that particular wwwh?

            *’It is the *method* of encoding that you have to figure out.’
            There is a huge difference between a coded message vs. understanding how one phrases words in a poem. [ example; take it in – physical movement vs. a view.
            Just for fun, why not show how your method works with a single clue. I’m sure many have forgotten your examples, and I’m one of them.

            *’Forrest claiming “they get progressively easier after you discover where the first clue is” is subjective.’*
            Here is where we kinda agree. but it really falls down to the clue we need to nail down or stay home, line of thinking. However, for later clues to be deciphered vs. locate, I think is the down fall of not having the correctly understood first clue. [Example; a waterfall,.. we can match pretty much any clue to the location of a waterfall anywhere there is a waterfall]
            So, just knowing what wwh is a reference of, does that really satisfy the clue the way we need to nail it down?

            *’Puzzle-solving’*… I won’t get into it. We are just too far apart here, and there’s not enough space on the blog for that discussion.

            Now we’re back to codes again. You say synonyms and such are codes… how, how can you actually claim word usages, meaning, definitions are codes? If fenn wanted cold to mean the flu, would you call that a code vs. temperature? If wood is meant to be petrified “wood” by definition and not “woods” defined as multiple trees area, is that a code?
            I mean, fenn actually told us what he did… “I looked up words and definitions of words and changed them, went back and rebooted…It turned out exactly like I wanted.”

            fenn used google to search words [ reboot ] fenn, changed words, each word is deliberate, the way he wanted it to all unfold.
            fenn stated the poem is in plain English… straightforward. etc etc…
            fenn ~”people don’t see it the way I do”

            LOL Do you not use a method that involve only parts of words to retrieve an answer?

            We can go back and forth all day long, Zap… but like I said… throw us a bone we can bite on for a real discussion about how you comprise an actual clue using your method.

            I’m only admit about your method because for many months you have claimed it is correct. Yet if that was remotely true… you would never be stuck on any clue nevertheless the same clue all the others are stuck on as well. Your method is too precises in its specification, and should pass the litmus test… IF correct.
            I can say the same for the puzzle bock [grid] method. Or using ever other letter to spell out something. Or any other method that has a single way of retrieving a clue’s reference.
            YET, they all have failed… why is that?

          • Hi Ken — I take my tenacity cues from Dal, Diggin Gypsy and Cynthia … just minus all those Esmeralda miles.

            I do wonder about the Chase turnover — as you say, there are few such as yourself that seem to be in it for the long haul. Just check the Nine Clues #1 page from over 5 years ago for anecdotal evidence. 476 posts by 68 posters. Of them, you’re still around and of course Dal; occasionally frank posts, and I think I saw a recent post from James Perotti. So 4 out of 68. If I go to Nine Clues #2 (722 posts, 116 posters) I see
            you, Dal, mdc777, James Perotti and Colokid. (Some names are short enough that it’s hard to tell if it’s a new person or not, and many searchers have changed avatar names over the years). Apologies in advance to anyone I missed out of those two archives that is still posting away.

            Of course, just because people no longer post who used to (e.g. Goofy) doesn’t mean they aren’t still in the Chase. But it sure looks like a lot of the originals have dropped out. It would be interesting to know the various reasons for people throwing in the towel.

          • Zap, that wasn’t a jab, just tough love. Lol… Don’t forget that you are here day in and day out calling on searchers for their lack of imagination, unwise choices and/or poor solves. So now we have the right to add you to Forrest’s resume of 350,000 (plus one mad scientist) failed searches over 8 years. 🙂

            I agree with Seeker on his recent post. I say don’t give your wwwh away if you don’t need to but kinda walk us through your thought process. I’m not a fan of acrostics but if that is what you do, then how does it work?

          • Seeker — My base-9 quip was a nod to the number of clues; my point was just that if you measure progress only by chest or no chest, we’re all at zero, and that’s not an inspiring or helpful metric. Nor does it recognize that measurable progress can be made. I consider a solution to the first clue significant progress, and so does Forrest (“more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking”). If you don’t nail down that first clue, you should not leave home to go searching. Again — Forrest’s advice, not mine. So Forrest seems to think that it is indeed possible to know beyond a reasonable doubt you have the first clue solved.

            “You said you basically couldn’t get to hoB, so you don’t know if you have TFTW correct either…”

            I said no such thing. I have a very good hoB, thank you very much. I’m just not so bold to claim it’s the only one possible. It’s just the best one that I’ve identified, and it works just fine with NF, BTFTW.

            “I think your reading the poem completely different than intended. IF anyone truly understood wwwh and all of the poem, “beforehand” ~ things should fall inline on site… no matter what is expected to be done.”

            That’s your opinion, based on your interpretation of Forrest’s ATF remarks. You think there’s some deep truth or mystery to be understood at WWWH that eludes all who’ve been there. I do not. I don’t think Forrest gives two hoots about WWWH. It was a conveniently located, unique starting point that would stand the test of time, and one for which he could design a cryptic clue. That’s all it is, IMO.

            Seeker, it’s clear you think that because Forrest looked up words and word definitions that we must do the same if we are to have any hope of solving the poem. Again, I 100% disagree because in my opinion I know why he had to do this — and it has nothing to do with challenging us to decipher an obscure twist of phrase. IMO, he made extra work for *himself*, not us, because of what he was trying to construct within the poem’s framework.

            “LOL Do you not use a method that involve only parts of words to retrieve an answer?”

            Laugh all you want, Seeker. But if you don’t open yourself up to the possibility that there is more to words than the meanings you can attach to them, I don’t think you can ever solve WWWH.

          • Zap
            You posted to my question ~’What part of your theory do you think stumped you?”
            {answering} To use Forrest’s words, if I knew that, I’d go right to the chest! ‘

            I assume you meant hoB as the clue that stumped you, by answering the above in the manner you did.
            I responded ~’“You said you basically couldn’t get to hoB, so you don’t know if you have TFTW correct either…”

            You then reply; ‘I said no such thing. I have a very good hoB, thank you very much.’

            Care to elaborate? The only clue fenn ever made such a remark about was hoB.
            So out of curiosity… how many clues did your theory take you, to not get to the center of the tootsies pop?

            I mean, [ depending on what your ideas of the clues are]… hoB is normally considered clue 4 by many… did you get to hoB? Get to clue 5? 6?
            Or are you still at the first two clues?

            You can’t have clue three completely known as solved, IF, it did not produce the next clue.
            No matter what science you study, rocket or otherwise… common sense dictates NO 4th clue, then clue 3 is wrong. { and that’s given the benefit of a doubt that you have the first two clues correct }

            How, IF you deciphered all the clues reference up to the blaze as you have claimed, you still can’t get past clue two and onto three to locate clue 4?

            If you don’t want to answer “directly”, that’s ok, just say so. No need for us to go back and forth about what is being said now.

          • Hi Seeker: this is a challenge to attempt on a phone on a skinny thread but I’m going to give it the old college try and maybe decipher my phone’s cut and paste feature. 😉

            “You posted to my question ~’What part of your theory do you think stumped you?”
            {answering} To use Forrest’s words, if I knew that, I’d go right to the chest! ‘”

            Apologies if I misled with that quote. I was merely trying to be funny/topical, not give an indication of where my choo-choo went off the rails. It was not an allusion to my perceived progress. The truth is, I don’t know where the failure point is: clue 9? Clue 5? The whole solution was really good I thought, but clearly not good enough.

            “So out of curiosity… how many clues did your theory take you, to not get to the center of the tootsies pop?”

            All the way, in this particular case. But I allowed for the specifics of the 9th clue to only be solvable in person. I still think 1-8 better be figured out pre-BOTG.

            “I mean, [ depending on what your ideas of the clues are]… hoB is normally considered clue 4 by many… did you get to hoB?”

            HoB was #4 on this occasion, or more specifically the put in below aspect of it. It is the starting point of my BOTG. I am actually pretty sure you’d be a fan of my hoB: it’s not obvious, but it’s pretty literal and clever. It’s straightforward and thematically aligned with Forrest’s interests.

            “You can’t have clue three completely known as solved, IF, it did not produce the next clue.”

            No argument here. To summarize, I think my hoB is right, but I am open to the possibility that it isn’t because the third clue has multiple reasonable interpretations. What the 3rd clue represents is not the issue; it’s the proper interpretation *why* Forrest identified what he identified, IMO.

            In a month or two, I can dispense with all the subterfuge and tell someone (you, Lugnutz, Dal, Cynthia, somebody) my WWWH and the logic behind it. I’m pretty sure whoever reads it will be just as convinced as I am. Ironically, it’s not rocket science.

    • Zap,

      One of my first imaginings of the hidey spot was a depression or cove in a semi-hilly area that would be fairly easy to overlook/not see unless you were right on top of it. I grew up in the woods (figuratively speaking) and I can take you to a spot that I have “memorized” that is in the middle of the forest near where I grew up. I do not know how many people know about it, but none of my friends do – because I never told them about it. In part, I think that has drawn me into this chase, because I shared a “secret” with Mr. Fenn, if you follow. I have not visited “my spot” in at least 44 years. Not sure I ever will, as I moved away from “home” when I went away to college.

      I kind of doubt that Mr Fenn would choose a “public place” to hide Indulgence in. I want to believe it is more secluded and has few, if any, signs about previous civilizations to be unearthed by any future anthropologists. My vision is of a solitary place, where he is alone and surrounded by nature.

      I’m a hopeless romantic…

      All in my opinion.

      • I agree. I do think it is in a beautiful, quiet place, very secluded. This is very hard to describe because it is more of an emotional “feeling” that I have when I read one of Forrest’s stories,

        He mentions going back to a place he fished many, many years ago, and then finding one of his old flies stuck to a tree branch. It’s like a moment stuck in time—kind of like a photograph. You were once in serenity–alone–in peace—a beautiful place.

        Then you move on with life. In Forrest’s case he sees the horror of war, and so many different things, Then you come back to that place that was once so special, and find a fly you had once been fishing with when you were very much younger. And the magic comes back for a moment. You remember yourself for a minute.

        There’s a Twilight Zone episode that has that “feeling” to it. Gig Young is a busy 40 year old businessman that is thrown into his past. He even sees himself carving his name into a tree. He meets his father and mother and himself. Suddenly he is back in the 1930’s. The episode ends with him chasing himself on a carousel trying to tell his childhood self to hold on as long as he can to childhood. But in doing so he causes his childhood self to fall off the carousel and hurt his leg. So when Gig Young goes back into the future he now has a limp he didn’t have before. It’s a wonderful episode. But it has the “feeling” I was describing in it. We would all like to go back and re-visit our childhood I think. Maybe hiding the chest is a small attempt to do just that. I wish I was a better writer so I could put into words much better what I am trying to say. Oh well, I tried. lol

        • Sparrow;

          I think that you did a very good job. I think that we all know what it was that you were expressing. Childhood is supposed to be such a special time. For those like Forrest, it was special. “And hint of riches new and old” – “Treasures bold” Riches old – memories of long ago – memories of childhood – Riches new – rich memories of coming to this special place to heal from the ravages of cancer. Ravages of both body and soul. “Treasures bold” – all of these combined memories – memories of fishing, and hiking, and “doing nothing” – Not only Forrest’s memories, but memories of the place itself. Mother Earth has a memory too – memories of its creation, memories of when it might have been a sea, or tidal flats, or a desert, or as mountains up-thrusted into what they are today. Memories of the last ice age. Memories of when man first set foot here, and hunted and gathered. Memories of the wildlife that roamed the hills – BOLD memories all. But my imagination runs wild again – JDA

        • Nice Sparrow. And the carousel motif is also at the end of Catcher In The Rye. Round and round, layers and layers.

      • Sparrow: I think you captured the sentiment quite well. There is a flip side to it, which I expect many of you have experienced, and we know that Forrest has. It’s the melancholic discovery that you can “never go home.”

        Some childhood places when revisited do not measure up to our memories of them. Sometimes this is simply because the place has changed, but other times it’s because there is more to a memory than the mere physicality of a place. *You* have changed. Forrest’s Bullet Comes Home is a good example.

      • I think few can see the big picture.

        So many like to think that FF bothered to hide the chest somewhere that was special to him in his youth.

        They are looking for HoBs in Yellowstone or in places of their childhood.

        For FF the past are only warm memories.

        If he hid the chest in a “really” special place, this place is part of his “current” life and not the past.

        Look how he would live his life again, if he could, and then answer me truthfully:

        Do you think the secret fishing hole, or the tree where you wrote a note to your wife, or a fishing pond from your youth, has any chance of being important to FF “today”?

        It’s only to see that he qualifies as a Maverick, that you already eliminate a lot.

        Read what he says about reliving the past:

        I never wanted to go down the center line. I wanted to bounce off the curbs and I think I’ve done that. I got caught a few times, but… I think if… If I had my life to do over, I said in my, one of these books that, if I had my life to do over, I’d change nearly everything. Why do the same thing over and over again? You know? You read in these different magazines, they ask a different question, “What would you change in your life?”

        “I wouldn’t change anything, everything’s been perfect.” I think that’s such a, a, an idiot thing to say, I think. Why do the same thing over again when you can… Nothing wrong with slamming a door and starting out new again.

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RzrIu3hMec&list=PLg2bCqbxRU9VRTmYsKwrL8q08qvwLSMnk&index=10

        • McB-
          You are ignoring the fact that the Yellowstone Region was not only a childhood haunt of Forrest’s, but also a playground he returned to over and over as an adult and a place he not only spent time in as an adult, but contributed to as well. He helped his dad build cabins on Boundary Street when he was out of school. He helped his brother build a motel there when he was in his 30’s. He was still fishing and taking friends there when he was in his 70’s. He wrote articles for the West Yellowstone newspaper when he was in his 70’s. He and Peggy contributed to the Yellowstone Historic Center when Forrest was in his 70’s and 80’s. In his 80’s he once suggested that he and I should float down the Madison and do a little fishing. The plans were cancelled but the point was not.

          Finally…Forrest keeps a family history called Rumblings and Ramblings. It is filled with stories about all things Fenn. It was started and continues to be a family history to be handed down to his off-spring. Parts of its text have appeared in various places on the internet. Forrest handed it to me one day in his office. He started writing it as a senior and continues adding to it as memories emerge. One particular line that he wrote stuck in my mind like an earworm…”Enter Yellowstone, that is where my heart is.”…

          Forrest loved the place as a child and as an adult. It is very special to him even today. There is certainly no shortage of warm water there. I can think of no reason to disqualify it as a likely location for the chest…either inside the park or outside the park.

          • Dal,

            I consider you as a master, worthy of solving the poem.

            In the post above, I did not disqualify the park, just put as an example, for having your youth connected to the park. And I shared a thought based on what FF said.

            When I did analyze the woodcutter figure at the end of the TTOTC book I said that “ONLY IN MY opinion / analyze (I do not remember)” the image would exclude 3 states of the hunt. I don’t say the states.

            But as we get into the matter, I’ve had two solutions in Yellowstone.

            One of them was so perfect that any questioner would agree with me.

            I did not post her because it was too obvious, to be an enigma. (almost childlike)

            The other post here why even I found it a little unreal. It was at Gardiner’s Gate, remember?

            I was at the very beginning of my research.

            Today, after hundreds of hours studying the poem and FF, I can guarantee one thing: If I post something and say “I think”, it is because something I have found.
            If I say “IMO-JMO”, it’s just an idea to think about.

            When I find something important, that will not compromise my solution, I usually share by email with blog friends. (although not always well received)

            And I never affirm ideas as “fact”. After all, I do not have the chest. No one has the chest.

            As for my solution, I may be wrong, but my margin of error is quite small.

  26. Seeker, I have to agree with some of what you said here. I have found something using the poem, a map, and imagination that requires no knowledge of place names, history, codes, anagrams, or anything other than geography knowledge that a child could understand. If it is right then it would be easy to say “what took me so long?”. Regardless of right or wrong, I believe that this is the type of solve needed.

  27. Zap and Seeker, if I were to guess I would say people throw in the towel because they simply run out of ideas. If after a few BOTG and getting stumped from there where else do you go? My guess is a vacation on a beach instead of in the woods. Some have probably been where we are at right now and did not progress.

    I keep preaching a team effort might be what it takes. I believe I have an excellent solution, but (Seeker’s favorite word) how can I know it is possibly correct until I search it? It seems very obvious that this is the correct path though with thousands trying before me how can I suspect that this is the first time this has been thought of? I can’t but I will go and search it still.

    Both of you are excellent candidates for a team effort. Seeker is a good thinker but his best quality might be getting information from other searchers and using it for his own theories. Zap is very analytical but not quite imaginative enough IMO. There are several other members on this blog with various other contributing qualities, as you know.

    If these solo missions do not prove to find the chest at some point we either must quit the chase or team up to find it. Like I said before this won’t be worth perusing until 2018 solves are all failed, if that does happen. If nobody finds the chest then this can be addressed again.

    • Zap, I realized later that I could have worded this better. I was in a hurry to post before dinner and really should have proofread it first. I didn’t mean to say that you personally are not imaginative. I can’t assume to know what you are thinking. What I was thinking is that usually the type of person that is very analytical is not as imaginative and creative. Everyone is different though. Everyone has something good to offer when it comes to solving the poem. It will take the right mixture of thinking to solve it I believe.

    • Aaron ~’Seeker is a good thinker but his best quality might be getting information from other searchers and using it for his own theories.’

      Allow me to rephrase that for you… I dissect others thoughts and process so I don’t make the same mistakes.
      When another searcher post’s a wild and crazy idea, most skip it by. I actually do read them, why? because they normally give me something else to think about.

      I’ll pick on JDA for a minute [ if he doesn’t mind ]
      He repeats the poem in search mode, basically having two or more of every clue. I highly doubt we have to run through the poem more than once, and keep going and going. But it did make me think of a WhatIF.

      Should a searcher follow all the clues correctly, locate the blaze and the distance to the chest be obvious from that point. IS it possible that the blaze looks back on where we started? A place that can only be seen from the blaze point, and at that blaze we see something we can’t see while at the ‘starting point’. So a searcher would then, basically repeat the solve in a mirror [opposite] image.

      The idea does seem to ring plausible with the AFT, fenn would of had to follow the clues to see the exact location of the hide. [ at least at some point in time ]. That doesn’t change the fact he walked less than a few miles when he hid the chest, or he had to make two trips because of weight [ he could have parked near the blaze ]… and… it gives credence to why we would need to be able to walk several hours to ‘our’ solve, with the ‘need’ to do it twice.

      Many want to believe we need to make two trips ourselves because of the weight. Yet most searcher always have have someone with them [ not all, but most ] Why would fenn indicate “we” would need to be able to make two trips to our solve?… the above scenario may explain that.
      I recall a comment about climbing a hill just to turn around to see where you have been. It also make some sense about Elliot’s Quote… knowing the place for the first time. As well as, two other comments; You won’t know you have wwwh correct until the chest is found, and need to ‘nail down’ the first clue.

      So no matter how mind boggling a searcher’s theory is… many of their post gives me an alternative food of thought.
      LOL so it’s not about ‘getting’ their information for my own … I abuse the heck out of their thoughts, to see another possibility.

      • Seeker,

        You’re right.

        Other ideas increase our ideas.

        It is no waste of time studying other researchers’ solutions or ideas.

        A single word can open a universe of new ideas, new interpretations, new thoughts.

        Plant “one” tree in your house and you will have “one” tree. Plant “one” idea in your head and you will have a “world” of ideas.

        What if?

      • I honestly believe everyone does and should use others thoughts to help with theories, and you do a great job of it.

        If I could rewrite that post so that it better reflects my actual thoughts I would. To be truthful I had a few beers last night before I wrote it. I have to remember to not drink and post. I did that once while talking trash in a fantasy football league and after reading it the next day I realized it was very bazaar and not at all what I meant to say.

        I apologize if I offended anyone.

        • No offense taken, Aaron.
          Ya can say how intelligent I am all day… Only you forgot good lookin. It ok, your not the first to let the obvious slip by.

    • Hi Aaron — I took no offense, but thank you for your follow-up nevertheless. While I wouldn’t say my solution methodology is “imaginative,” I think people here will find it quite unexpected and unconventional when revealed. Very backwards-bicycle-like.

      • I think imagination, I remember:

        “My church is in the mountains and along the river bottoms where dreams and fantasies alike go to play.” ☺

      • Hi ken: no immediate plans to reveal to all. I’ll float a trial balloon revealing WWWH and the methodology toward a few prominent HoD’ers this summer to elicit feedback.

          • A prominent member knows quite a bit about Proms and other kinds of dances. It’s kind of like trackability—-that refers to what events in track you were good at—-I used to do the sprints.

        • Hey Zap…I was not really serious. I know that you are still in it…so actually it would be ridiculous to even do that. IF you are correct in your *methodology*…why show your cards?
          On the other hand…IF you are not even in the ballpark…maybe you should show your hand so that you can move on. Have a good one…

        • Hi CovertOne: it wasn’t meant as a snub to any particular searcher. My idea was to select a few folks who everyone knows and respects on the blog and get their two cents (sense?) on the reasoning behind my WWWH. The motivation is admittedly completely selfish: many searchers think I’m blowing smoke, and this would just be an attempt to prove otherwise.

          • McB: a precise geographic point on a map described by the combination of WWWH and the keyword.

          • And is that key word part of the poem or the TTOTC book?

            Or was it created from deduction, analyze?

          • Dejoka: actually ideally the opposite of like-minded. The solution if valid should work for my staunchest critics. Echo chambers don’t interest me.

          • McB: poem, TTOTC, TFTW, OUAW, MW Q&A’s, Scrapbooks, Vignettes, public email replies. Pretty much every venue of communication.

          • Zap,

            In your solution does the keyword fit into all the possible poem variables?

            Or does it follow a unique context?

            For example, as you break the poem does it align with the solution of the poem or do you need adjustments at certain points?

          • I have sense, it’s mostly common though. Most everyone has heard of me, but I’m not sure about the respect part. I mean, some make fun of my typing skills and llack of poof readen… how rude.
            Still Zap, I would like the change to have a go at your method of WWWH.
            If it’s done by e-mail.. it stays in e-mail. More than likely the spam folder… but it will stay there only.

            Just saying.

          • Maybe you’re not comfortable talking to me. I’m new here.

            And because of the time zone, I need to sleep.

            So if your answer is “no” to just my “second” question, your WWWH has chances of being correct.

            In this case my last question would be:

            If FF tomorrow back and say that WWWH “no” is the first clue, that the first clue is in stanza 1, will you still consider your WWWH or your keyword to be the correct one?

            If so, you are on the right path in your solution.

            If not … : (

            Just my opinion for a companion in the hunt.

          • Seeker: you are certainly someone I’m considering because if *you* like it (and when I say like it, I mean better than anything you’ve heard or read so far), then anyone aware of our long-standing, um, history (wink) would figure something serious is afoot.

          • Since I was ignored, I’ll shoot:

            Ah, these are not “my” opinions only.

            Bang!
            “*Complacency is the misuse of imagination. (Posted Dec. 18th, 2015)”

            Bang!
            “*Don’t be influenced by those who say they know, but don’t.f (Posted June 10th, 2016)”

            Bang!
            “Dear Mz. Mary,
            The solve is difficult for many searchers because their minds think the clues are tougher to decrypt than they really are.

            Some say they are trying to think outside the box, as if the solution lies somewhere out there.

            Until now I have resisted telling them to get back in the box where their thoughts are comfortable and flow more easily.

            The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust. To illustrate my point go to YouTube – Smarter Every Day.” f

            http://mysteriouswritings.com/weekly-words-from-forrest-fenn-on-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

          • Zap…I would love to be included when you share your methodology. I’ve noted that you and I often seem to get to the same place but I think it is via a different pathway. I’m curious. Thanks.

          • McB: you weren’t ignored — we are four time zones apart and I’m a night person, so call that effectively 5 or 6. Our search states couldn’t be further apart, so I’m not sure I see the point in answering leading questions, but I will go ahead and answer your first:

            “In your solution does the keyword fit into all the possible poem variables?”

            No. That is not the purpose of Forrest’s word that is key in my opinion. In my solution(s) all the clues are connected to it, but its main purpose, as I see it, is to identify the starting point.

          • Hi Zap: I think you can count on several folks here providing their two cents and objective feedback. IMO – you are one of the most technical thinkers here so it’s puzzling that you would put information out for all to see especially if it involves your work and real solve location (or portion of your solve like WWWH).

            In about 30 seconds, lurkers from all around will start to test your theories and, who knows, take it all the way to the finish.

            For what it’s worth – I don’t think you’re blowing smoke and some of the things you mention here are very logical and insightful. Best of luck – whether you test a key theory here of decide to retain your work without disclosure….

          • Hi Sandy! I already have you on the short list. Your past posts show that you understand the game that Forrest is playing, and that you are not one to ignore the intentional “errors” that he makes. 85% is 85%.

          • Zap,
            Just in case I was being considered. You can leave me out, your methods and ideas are too foreign to me. There is no way I could help.

            Thanks and Good Luck.

          • Dekoka: “Just in case I was being considered. You can leave me out, your methods and ideas are too foreign to me. There is no way I could help.”

            That’s actually what would make you an excellent sounding board. I’m pretty good at explaining things, and I think you would find my ideas are not foreign to you at all. They are really simple. I would think they would fall more into the category of “OMG — I should have thought of that.”

          • Dejoka: fair enough. No worries. I still think that most folks when told what my WWWH is and why will have a reaction something like, “Duh. Why didn’t I think of that?”

          • Fundamental Design: shorthand for the tedious “a word that is key”. But in my opinion there’s difference whatsoever.

          • Zap, I’m going with a big difference between “a” and ‘the’. Plural versus singular. Many versus one.

          • Hi Covert One: just to clarify, I’m not going to publish my WWWH on any blog while I’m still actively in the Chase. That would be “metaphorically” giving away more than half the solution, and while that’s a far cry from delivering the chest to a lurker, I wouldn’t so casually hand over the fruits of a few thousand manhours. Rather, my eventual intent is to share it privately with a few searchers, and give them the opportunity to provide constructive feedback.

            I do want to thank you for the compliment, and for sharing with me that you don’t think my ideas are just smoke and mirrors. I think you may be in the minority on that score, but I’m okay with that. 🙂

          • echo chambers should interest you Zap… Its part of the chase and will be revealed when someone finds it. IMHO.

          • All you need is eyes in the back of your head. Turning the seat around also helps us guys – If ya’ know what I mean – JDA

        • I believe that if one were to create a device like a periscope but with three mirrors at the correct angles to allow you to see ahead that you could easily ride a backwards bicycle. One mirror would reverse the image but you would not be able to see straight unless you literally rode it backwards. Two mirrors would cause the image to be the same as looking ahead but adding a third would do the trick!

  28. In odds and ends above here somewhere there was a discussion on the dove nesting in the crescent moon. I’m just curious out of everyone that’s here and even those who don’t post much what they’re solid guess is to what it means.

    Here is my guess the dub is a mourning dove . In the story where it is at forest is talking about his father the dove represents the loss and love for his father but I also believe in my humble opinion that the moon and the dub represent where the treasure chest is hidden I believe it is an exact spot where the dove sets in the Crescent moon where the chest is hidden.

    • I take that back. After reading your next reply I’d say it is possible we have the same key word. Probably not but possible.

    • Aaron: only because you’re focused on Wyoming is it theoretically possible we share the keyword, but like you said I strongly doubt it.

  29. Fennatical, I have seen that video thanks. The mirror trick would have been faster, and he would be able to ride a normal bike after 🙂 A more efficient smarter every day IMO

  30. I may be in an altered state, but think I figured out where the authentic Dr. Who is. I don’t have a good poker face, but I am pretty good at Blackjack. I hope the clock isn’t ticking too fast.

    “Who looks outside, dreams; who looks inside, awakes.” ~Carl Jung

    All IMO

    Thanks to you, and all that have served this Memorial Weekend.

  31. Does anyone think Forrests Dad would know his special hidy spot to leave his bones? I know there was a second hand comment that “his Dad would know” but do you think his Dad knew his plan or just his Dad could figure it out?

    • Also, I think Skippy would find Forrests hourd quicker than his dad… 🙂 Has he ever said anything about Skippy and the treasure?

    • I don’t see how his Dad could have known… he past before fenn’s own on set of cancer. If we take fenn at is word, the idea of all this only started at that time… 1988.
      I’m not even sure if his Dad could figure out the poem… but it would not surprise me he at least knew of the location.

      • Seeker,

        Have you read the poem that Forrest’s father sent him a few years before he died?

        Read through until you fully understand. See the poem with your mind. See the landscape, the grass, the warrior, the bow bowing, the arrow flying, time passing, the father of FF with arrow in hand, seeing and imagining the same as you.

        Now do this with the FF poem. You will notice surprising similarities.

        https://dalneitzel.com/2013/02/23/scrapbook-seventeen/

    • A Father’s Day musing. My guess on it is that the poem is in the same style as puzzles or games that he used to play with his dad. So his father would have known how to approach solving it.

      • ff’s father would have easily solved it to the blaze but from blaze to tc would have taken him longer imo.

        • We’ve all solved it easily to the blaze, it’s that last part that gets us. Trying to find that path that goes from a figment of our imaginations to an actual bronze chest is a tough one.

          PS, since this is in the hidey space page I’ll add a scintillating insight I had about the special place. If I wanted to hide a treasure so that wouldn’t be found for 1000 years I would have put it at a nuclear waste dump. Nobody would find it til things cool off a bit.

  32. Reassure me here guys please, if Mr Fenn said either ‘Lots’ or ‘Many’ (Cant remember exact phrase) have been with in 500ft and a ‘Few’ within 200ft then going by the word bending geniuses pass, ‘`lots’ or ‘`many’ technically could of been within 201ft right?………am I correct in thinking that or shall I call for the men in white coats!……Again!! 🙂

    • Hi Butch. Forrest said “lots” of people have been within 500 feet, but not very many within 200 feet. Technically, yes, “lots” could have been within 201 feet, and Forrest’s statement would still be truthful. But realistically, in most instances Forrest cannot estimate to within +/- 20 feet of where a searcher has been, and probably not even that accurately. So, no, I don’t think he’s shaving it quite that close. Maybe the 500 footers have been within 250 feet, but I doubt that was the intent of Forrest’s statement. When he said 500, I think he meant roughly 500 feet, not 201 or 250 or even 300. After all, he was willing to say he thought the 200-foot figure was pretty accurate. Artificially inflating the distance from 250 (or whatever) up to 500 wouldn’t seem to serve much purpose, given the existence of 200-footers.

      • Hi Zap,

        Thanks for the reply, its just that I can make the 200 fit in my solve but not the 500, the nearest I can get is about 348ft……..buy surely for Mr Fenn to. come up with an accurate 200 he must be using measuring tools on GE no? which would mean he cold say 200/1000ft the bigger the 2nd number the more vague and bigger area he can insinuate when realistically its a very small area? IMO

        • Butch, fenn said he didn’t us maps,he recalled from memory when he wrote the poem… he knows the location very well. And folks have told him exactly where they were… like fenn said, he look for key word in the e-mails… it could be just as simple as a searcher saying, I sat on a larger round rock over looking the waters about 20 feet from the waters edge… fenn then would know that boulder is 200′ from the chest. In theory.
          Can you describe your child hood home inside and out…? Mine sat on two acres with the home 50 from the road, a horseshoe driveway just off the the left and a road frontage of 200 going back 400 feet with a second home the size of 36 feet sq and 80 to 90′ from the end of the back property, having a oval 32′ pooling between the homes. leaving a 75 foot blue-spruce stationed near the fence line of the neighbors property. Just be hind the driveway. And the main house 30; off the other neighbor’s land.

          I could tell you within a few feet of where anything in that yard would be at. I’m sure fenn can do the same with his special place.

          • seeker- I too recall every small detail of the house where I was raised, as well as my grandfathers house, where I spent many a summer day.
            If in fact, f knows his special place as well as we know ours, I wonder what made this place so special. Seems like it would be more than innate beauty, or even a great place to fish. He would know of thousands of those type of places. What’s so special about this place that he was determined to hide the treasure there?

          • emmett1010;

            I am not Forrest, nor do I have the chest – therefore, I can not know for sure what the answer to your question is – but – here I go anyway.

            Few of us have faced death and survived. Think about it for a few minutes. Not just a second or two, but a few minutes.

            You are having to face your immortality. Forrest was diagnosed with cancer at a time where this was like having your death certificate signed. He was given – what – a 20% chance of survival? What must have gone through his mind? Well, he beat the odds. He survived.

            His body was healed, but what about his mind? I know that I would have to escape to some special place to heal my mind – to reevaluate life, and my place in it. It is easy to live day-to-day when you don’t fear death. How do you live day-to-day when the days are numbered? How do you live day-to-day when you have been given a second chance?

            Forrest may have gone to a place of his youth. A place that was full of memories of that youth. A place that was “fun”. A place to fish, a place where he could commune with nature.

            While here, thinking back on his youth, maturing, and fearing death – Maybe he saw the same thing in the place itself. Here was a place that had been “Born”. A place that had a “childhood” – A place that has a “Present” , and a place that has a “future”. This place became a personification of “his” life.

            The future of this “Place” is unknown, and yet it’s future can be predicted by looking at its past.

            Could Forrest’s future be predicted by his past? Yes, and no. We are who we are, but we also have the power to change how we act. Forrest may have been well pleased with who he was, and who he would be “tomorrow” – or He might have decided to become a bit “different” in his future – to change the course of his remaining years.

            Maybe he saw this in the “Place” that he was in. Maybe a stream once flowed one way, but today takes a different course. Just like his life – he had followed one path, but now could choose a different one – “If he wanted to”.

            Think back to the ice age. A glacier carving out a valley – a phenomenal “force”. Or think about that same glacier melting – drop-by-single-drop – becoming a rivulet that becomes a creek or stream, that becomes a river that carves out new valleys. From a drop of water, into an earth-changing force.That same force lies within each of us – if only we channel it correctly.

            Maybe these were Forrest’s thoughts, in this special place – the place that he came to to heal his body, his mind and his soul. Maybe this is why this place is so special. This “Place” became a personification of who Forrest had been, and who he could be, now that he had been given a second chance. Read “My War For Me” and “Flywater” and some of what I have said may make some sense.

            I have NO idea, I can only conjecture about how “I” would have handled facing death, and escaping it. JDA

          • Emment,
            Regardless of why… I think it’s more important to ask; did he tell us-?- where his location is, be it the poem or the book.
            I’m not sure the poem contains “ALL” the information “we” desire. I think the poem is only the path. While the book can help with the hints… I think this might be misunderstood as answers to the clue’s individual places. I lean toward the idea, the book will help with the clue’s location only. The rest is up to us, deciphering the poem’s path.

            So, basically, you can tell me everything about those two places you remember as a kid, points within them and even lead me to a place you enjoyed being at when there… but how will I find those places if you don’t hint to where they are located?

            “Special” to you and I are going to be different to each person. And as you said; fenn tells us of many places special to him… and each seems as likely as the next. Kinda like everything is a clue to fenn [ even the “useless clues,” lol ]

          • JDA,
            Nice sentiment and all, but you’re working with mostly your feelings of how fenn should feel.
            I doubt fenn fears death or worry about facing his immortality [ during the time of the illness ]… Every time he flew a mission, that possibility was always there, line of thinking, and for 20 years.

            However, If you’re talking about healing of the mind? lol, ya might be in the wrong state. Reread the pinion nut comment and see where fenn chose to live to recover / heal / get his head on straight or any other terminology usable for the thought.
            If I was to only think about what you stated; My first guess/pick is NM. It would almost have to be… after fenn said what he said about NM jut prior to the all known pinion nut comment, Right?

            It’s very difficult to get into another thoughts about such matters, especially if you never dealt with them yourself. I don’t think we can look at just one aspect of the cancer for answers… IMO, the illness was only the igniter of a thought to… why do I need to be conventional?

    • At the risk of making some folks unhappy with my comments, I’ll apologize now.

      It is my opinion all 200 and 500 footers have been taking nice vacations. While some of them may have been searchers, they had not solved the poem. It is my belief that Mr. Fenn wants us to know that solving is more important than searching (botg).

      Your mileage may vary,

      • I agree that the poem can be solved in its entirety without botg up until take the chest. I think they may have also solved clue #1 for the wrong reason that I’ll explain after I post my solve and may have had #2 pegged and just happened to pick a trail within 2-500′ by sheer luck

      • swwot…I agree. Thinking and observing and planning come to mind.
        Those folks “obviously” did not understand the full answer. Their map was incomplete….

    • Butch,
      “Lots” of people could mean private property. So within 500 ft of a private “lot” …? A lot can be small or very large…
      Just throwing that out there…
      🙂

  33. I think the hiding place is a traffic loop , off a hiway to a scenic view or fishing spot. There’s no reason why anyone would venture to the inside of the traffic loop, because on one side is the hiway, and on the side is the attraction.

  34. I have an idea that involves solving the first stanza of the poem. Solving for “there” and “where” narrows a search area for WWH. Then solve the 9 geographical And contiguous clues to the Blaze. Any thoughts?

    • Jeff;

      To me, “In There and Where” is the final place that Indulgence is secreted. For me, I could not solve these two until after I had solved all of the other clues – but that is just me, and I do not have the chest. Go for it guy – JDA

      • JDA,

        All logic suggests you are right. And my logical mind agrees with you.

        The honest truth is I have always wanted to go to YNP. My 12 year old twins and I have created a really great treasure map to include in the fun along way while in the Park. My brother is coming along as well because growing up when and where we did; one could play hooky from school, go fishing, and no one was the wiser. We dreamed about going to Yellowstone as most young boys did in our time. So long story short, we made the poem fit that area. The idea of using the first stanza to narrow the search area for WWH is in FLYWATER. Pretty sure this isn’t a new idea. From what I’ve read, it is the most searched area, and seemingly safe area if one is prudent about safety.

  35. Reconcile these two statements:

    “In the end, the person who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself “What took me so long?”

    “People will be surprised when they find out where it is.”

    • The person that finds it is going to realize in hindsight how simple and straightforward the poem is. People will be surprised it’s not in Yellowstone or New Mexico.

      • I see the “being surprised” as having two possibilities:

        1) You are surprised at the general area.
        2) You are surprised in the manner the chest is hidden AT the location.

        Certainly, if it was ANYWHERE in Yellowstone, almost nobody would be surprised. (Also, I believe Yellowstone has been ruled out by Forrest’s own comments regarding the use of trails).

        For the “What took me so long”, I agree, once you figure out the solve, it will seem obvious.

        • I probably should have said “Greater Yellowstone” meaning people think one or more clues have something to do with Yellowstone.

          • CRM114: that’s the million dollar question, isn’t it? I think people would be surprised if the chest was underwater, but we know it isn’t. They’d be surprised if it was on top of a mountain, but again we know it isn’t. I agree that the people who are convinced that Indulgence is in New Mexico will be surprised (or more to the point, dismayed). It’s hard to imagine being surprised by a hiding place that no searcher has approached to within 200 feet. Seems to rule out most of the “surprising” locations.

          • CRM114;

            As you know, I believe that Indulgence will be found in Wyoming – not in or near YNP. IF I am correct, and it is found in a relatively obscure place in WY – will you be surprised – since most of the focus has been northern NM and the greater Yellowstone area? I imagine that you will – JDA

          • Zap, Yes, applying other ATFs to the situation limits what you can be surprised about. I’m under the potential delusion the 200 footers were simply on a sightseeing side trip possibly a 100 miles from their search area, and the 500 footers are just people, not searchers. Between F’s CTRL-F search ability and 10s of thousands of emails, I’d guess the chances of an obscure spot popping up is pretty good.

          • JDA,

            I would not be surprised if it’s in an obscure spot. I will be surprised if it’s in greater Yellowstone or New Mexico.

          • CRM114: well, I for one would be surprised if Indulgence was inside the Old Faithful maw. Hard to approach (legally) to closer than 200 feet, and it wouldn’t be under water per se (more like under steam). Not so sure he could smell pine trees from that location given the overwhelming smell of sulfur dioxide. 😉

      • ** ** ** Reconcile these two statements:
        ** “In the end, the person who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself “What took me so long?”
        ** “People will be surprised when they find out where it is.” ** ** **

        (de-fenn-ition of the phrase “so long” – an amount of time somewhere between “over spring break” and “a hundred years down the road”)

        Those statements suggest to me that the guy who’s only ever been inside may not be the best judge of what it looks like to all the folks who’ve only ever been outside.

        I don’t usually wonder about the unknowables, but one that pops into my head now and then is this hypothetical:

        If the chest were found, but the *only* information released was the exact little location (coordinates and all) the box was sitting on . . . nothing at all about the clue solutions that took the finder there . . .

        . . . how long do you think it would it take us to figure out *where warm waters halt*?

        . . . and agree on it? 😉

        jake

    • Hey interesting quotes.
      I can’t find them on Tarry Scant.
      Do you know when and what context these were made?

      “What took me so long?” is interesting wording.
      Thanks
      Clearly Clueless

      • Clearly: here’s the context/source of the latter. It was an email (here) from Forrest on 10/10/2012:

        “Occasionally I forward parts of emails to Dal for use in his blog to add human interest for others who are in the search, but I never would if it made a difference or in any way might point someone toward or away from the treasure. Dal is also a searcher. I am determined to stay aloof of providing any additional clues that are useful. Everyone has the same information to work with. Some few have stopped within several hundred feet of the correct location, and then passed it by. I said in my book that the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination. I have done only a few things in my life that were truly planned. Hiding the treasure chest is one of them. And at the end, the one who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself, ‘what took me so long?’”

        • My pleasure! (I don’t have a quick reference to the other quote, but no doubt someone else will dredge it up if it’s legit.) Have a great weekend!

          • ** ** ** “People will be surprised when they find out where it is.” ** ** **

            source:
            https://dalneitzel.com/2014/05/27/more-unwelcome-in-yellowstone/#comment-39678

            “Confirmed direct response from Forrest, in an email”

            Here is a differently worded one along the same lines that *can* be sourced:

            ** ** ** I [Taylor Clark, author of this article] observed that the treasure — one small chest hidden in a 3,000-mile-long mountain range — didn’t seem likely to be found anytime soon. The Fenn sparkle came back into his eye.

            “Well, you don’t know where it is,” he said, grinning. “When somebody finds that treasure chest, everybody’s going to say, ‘My God! Why didn’t I think of that?’” ** ** **

            source:
            https://stories.californiasunday.com/2015-07-05/the-everlasting-forrest-fenn/

            jake

          • JAKe;

            I see these two quotes as saying very different things. #1 I read as Forrest saying that most searchers will find the actual location a surprise, because it will NOT be in NM or in the Yellowstone eco. area.

            I see quote #2 as saying – The method used by the solver will use or employ elements that the “average” searcher will not have thought about.

            Just how I read the two quotes – JDA

          • Hi JAK: unfortunately the link in the UK that leads to the quote: ** ** ** “People will be surprised when they find out where it is.” ** ** ** is broken, but there is ample evidence that the quote (from a private email) did at one time appear there.

          • True, Zap. Chris Yates’ post here on HoD (that I linked above) was the earliest reference to the quote that I found.

            Someone on another site said you could get to the UK source using the Wayback Machine, but I didn’t bother testing it due to perceived lack of any additional nutritional value.

            JAKe

  36. has any one thought of asking a psychic to locate the hidey space?
    i have heard that they can locate lost or missing things.
    just a thought

    • My psychic told me that she knows where it is. I’m still trying to raise the $1,000,000 fee that she wants for that information. Maybe I should ask for a money back guarantee?

      PS I’ll pass the information on to you at only a 10% markup, but I won’t be able to guarantee it.

    • There have been a lot of comments on this site about psychics over the years. The search bar at the top of the page will probably lead you to them…

    • Or better yet, one of those people who specialize in “reading” people’s body language. We could pay an expert to review all the Forrest videos. Perhaps there is a key body movement Forrest employs, or a “tell” that he is not even consciously aware of. I seriously think this could reveal useful information.

  37. If you were standing where treasure chest is….it would look like “Almost heaven”…quoting John Denver’s “Country Roads”; Views to die for…

  38. I asked myself the other day how and where I want to die if I had a cancer like Fenn when he was diagnosed with a kidney cancer. IMO he wanted to die at the place where he knows the best, the most beautiful location for him when he was young and spent time “in there”, and the safest place protected by rain, snow, animals, and people. If he had died in that hiding place in 1989 with the TC, nobody would have found his dead body nor the TC for almost 20 years now.

    I don’t want to die in an open field where animals and birds can get to you, or in a river or a lake where the water rot your body away, or deep in the woods where all you can see is trees above and the dirt below. I want to see the water, but not actually be in the water. I want to see the sky, but not in the open lying down. I want to see the mountains and valleys. I want to see all the colors, green, white, yellow, brown, red, blue and black. I also want to feel the breeze passing by. I want to touch the cold of the rock. I want to smell the pines nearby and dirt below my feet.

    I do not want to be wet from rain. I do not want to freeze under the snow. I do not want sun scorch my body. I do not want to be bothered by the animals, birds, and even people. However, I want to feel the presence of them. I would like to hear constant water streams (even though warm waters halted) and birds singing, and to see the never-ending visits from people all over the world (even though there is no human trails in very close proximity).

    Can I ever find that hiding place? Can my solve lead me to that secret place? Maybe, or maybe not.

    — MajinKing

        • Idle and JDA,
          going strickly off memory…..
          Forrest said, something like this….if I was standing next to tc I see blah blah blah…he goes on to say he knows the tc is wet.
          What he doesn’t say he sees is water. ..

          • Thanks pdenver for below. He doesn’t say he sees water but he also doesn’t say he doesn’t. Probably in part because saying either would be a huge clue.

          • Just because he does not mention seeing water does NOT mean that he can/could not see it. If I asked you to tell me everything that you can see out your living room window, I bet that you would not mention a number of things that are actually there. Just sayin’ – JDA

          • Eaglesabound: as others have pointed out, we can’t draw conclusions about things that Forrest didn’t mention that could be visible from the treasure chest’s location. But it’s hard to imagine a life-long fisherman wanting to rest for eternity somewhere that didn’t have line-of-sight to a creek, stream or river.

        • Well you guys,
          There’s literally thousands of things he didn’t mention…
          I think we should go with what he says he sees…Jmo

        • Sorry Seeker, you have no reply button under your post….
          I guess if you believe the poem is describing 1 single place. That’s not how I read the poem. Your opinion may differ. .

  39. If I’m correct in my current solve I think I could see the sky, the mountains, warm waters and cold waters, canyon walls, rocks, dirt, pine and other trees, of course the treasure chest, and could sometimes hear people’s voices also when I am standing at this hidey space. I might be able to see a couple of animals too. Once I get to THE place myself on my BOTG, I think I will be able to describe the scenery better. Again all this is just my opinion and my thought.

    — MajinKing

      • Hi Jake,

        Thank you for your encouragement. I think this hidey space is not located at a faraway place miles from the trails, but at a very secluded place close from the trail frequented by the visitors, but hidden from casual sights. Therefore, IMO, even if people are very close to it, they either don’t see it or want to bother with the idea of reaching that space unless they are specifically looking for it with the intention of retrieving the chest, since they come to that place confidently knowing that the chest is hidden in that place.

        — MajinKing

        • Makes sense I-Majin-nation-King.

          Though when I took my Mother on hunts this last summer she checks everything. She has a beautiful i-majin-nation.

  40. “… but it’s a very special place to me. Otherwise, I would not have done it. I mean, I just couldn’t take it out and bury it in the ground someplace where I didn’t know where I was. I think that was a crucial part of it.”

  41. I think the place is also close, not very close, to the landmark where visitors frequent, literally around 10′ to 12′, possibly in vertical direction, not horizontal.
    — MK

    • I think the hidey spot has to pass the sniff test, literally.
      Remember, he was going to die there and so close to where visitors frequent does not make sense. The treasure would be found so fast using your nose without using the poem then why bother with the poem?

      • Hi Jake,
        I think I’ve mentioned about this a couple of times on other discussions, but the reason why I’m saying this is that the place is close to the trail but nobody is interested in getting there because:
        1) The purpose of people coming there is already satisfied so they don’t have to look any further,
        2) The actual path to it is blocked by rails and they are discouraged by them. Why do they want to dare to go outside the rails unless they are specifically looking for the chest?
        3) That’s why the last clue (at least in my solve) should be “if you are BRAVE and in the wood”.

        — MK

        • The smell of a decaying body MajinKing?
          You have not addressed this major issue.
          People passing by will eventually tell a forest ranger about the stench and will investigate and find the chest and Fenns carcass without the use of the poem.

          • Wild animals will completely consume you ever before you get to that degree of decomposition. Larger mammals are dying everyday in the wild and no one smells the “stench”. Now die in your car, where they can’t get to you that’s called a “bloater”. Drown and then you’re a “floater”.

            Many people want to work in the Medical Examiner’s office. They think it would be like CSI everyday. One day Billy was doing some work there when they were training a newbie. They had a drowning victim they had just brought in. They were filling out their checklist as they were explaining to him everything he needed to do.

            Then they told him he needed to feel inside his pockets and record anything he had in them. I watched as he slipped his hand into the dead man’s front right Jeans pocket. His eyes seemed to enlarge, as his instructor asked him if he felt anything. He nodded and then pulled out a ….FISH!

            See it’s possible to make friends even after you’re dead…Keep the turtles away from me though!

            Morbid Billy

        • ** ** ** MajinKing – “The actual path to it is blocked by rails and they are discouraged by them. Why do they want to dare to go outside the rails unless they are specifically looking for the chest?” ** ** **

          Anymore, they “go outside the rails” to take a selfie doing something stoopit.

          And then there’s this yahoo from Greeley CO:

          https://www.nationalparkstraveler.org/2018/09/man-arrested-walking-cone-old-faithful-yellowstone-national-park

          JK

          • Hi JK,
            I’m not talking about those stupid people, I’m talking about us searchers, educated, determined and focused.
            — MK

    • “…I will always consider it to be mine alone.f ”

      “If you ain’t the lead dog, the scenery never changes.” When I am in the mountains or in the desert, the last place I want to be is on a trail. Ain’t no adventure in that for me. There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty to where I hid the treasure.f

      Seems to me the last place he’d want to be is where others are.

      • “Each “”close proximity” is different, relative, and site- specific, as you pointed out.. So I can’t answer your question. To an ant a mud puddle can be like an ocean. f “

      • Hi Seeker,
        I think Fenn is teasing us again. Even though he said “There ISN’T a human trail in VERY CLOSE proximity to where I hid the treasure”, I think there IS a human trail in CLOSE proximity where he hid the treasure. Also I think we need to decide how much we’re going to accept his hints, 100% or 50% or 0%? It’s up to each individual.
        — MK

        • I don’t think of the ATF has hints, MK.
          But I do believe there is factual information within some of them, if not most of them.
          I think fenn has given info that is helpful only to keep most from doing stupid things.
          One example is a Q&A where fenn was explaining how he sealed the jar that holds his bio. In the comment he stated; he not ready to say the chest in not in water, but he wanted the jar sealed [paraphrasing]
          IMO.. this was the first time he mentioned the chest and water or mentioned it was not in water… but never stated it directly. Not until later when he may have felt the need to do so…”The treasure chest is not under water,..”

          Other comments have been stated in the same manner. One was a Q&A about; who else knows? where the chest is hidden. In the answer fenn stated; an 80 yr old is not going down and up a canyon. also adding from the “safety first thread” It is not necessary to move large rocks or climb up or down a steep precipice,..

          In an interview; [paraphrasing] fenn was asked about voodoo or something when going on reservations. He answered -in part- no one should take anything off reservations.

          IMO. fenn has given thoughts to what he has heard searchers talking about or e-mailing him there process. I think he has been giving info that is not critical to a solution, but does help in some of the wild ideas we can come up with. So, in my mind, the chest was never in water, not in a reservation, and if fenn is not going down, up and down again when he hid the chest, I’m not going down a canyon either… Does this get me closer? Nope. Does it help me so I can think different thoughts, I’d say it has.

          Personally, I highly doubt the chest is hidden within quarter mile from anything considered a human trail, nevertheless 12 feet as you predict, or a place with many ‘visitors’ that could easily be feet away. I’m also one of the very few that think all the clues are within a smaller area, or seen from on point. I think fenn has us right where he wants us… right near the chest… at WWH.

          • Well Seeker;

            We can hope that he has us where he wants us … right near the chest … at WWH – Just hopin’ JDA

          • I agree with you, Seeker, that all clues are within a smaller area. In fact in my current solve, I can see WWWH and HOB from the blaze, and the distance is not far away.
            — MK

  42. From my internet search I found one opinion is that a decaying body could be smelled from probably a quarter mile away, depending on the wind direction.
    Another site said: Temperature is the number one thing that influences the rate of decomposition, affecting the bacteria and insects that aid in the process.
    Whether it’s sunny, hot and humid, or shady, dry and cool matters. Also if it’s cold and snowy.
    Since Fenn said in Weekly words that “You will find no mildew in the treasure chest” and that most molds need a temperature of 70 degrees Fahrenheit to grow we can ascertain that the hidey space is in an area that stays cool year round.
    A colder spot like that would slow the rate of decay as well as reduce the smell.
    Also, if the area is home to a lot of wild animals the smell of a dead carcass is fairly common and does not attract the attention of locals or CSI officials.

    “your effort will be worth the cold.”

  43. An interesting side note: Did you know that the head and body of baseball great Ted Williams have been cryogenically frozen in Arizona? If one day Science finds a way to revive the frozen dead then Ted’s “effort will be worth the cold” wouldn’t you say? I would also note that no mildew exists where Ted’s body is either. And there is no odor because he isn’t decomposing.

    I just wanted to add this as I find it interesting.

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