The Nine Clues…Seventy Eight

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This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Forrest has told us that  “Begin it where warm waters halt” is the first clue. What is the next clue.

646 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…Seventy Eight

  1. He said that “Begin it where warm waters halt” was the first clue, in a New Zealand radio interview back in 2013. The recording only got reposted in 2017. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XmRex5DRfCc However, Forrest also said that you can’t ignore any nouns, so presumably the first, fifth and sixth stanzas have hints in them (even if they don’t contain any of the official nine clues).

  2. In my opinion the first clue, where warm waters halt, refers to
    Ojo Caliente Spring in Yellowstone National Park.
    The second clue is the Canyon Down is the Firehole Canyon north.
    The Home of Brown is still a mystery to me because there are so many places, people, and things named Brown. But F has said that it is not a structure.

    • I thought He said THE TREASURE is not associated with a structure. He didn’t say anything about the home brown- unless you think they are one in the same.?

      • True, at the time. Now with Cynthia’s statement it look like when Forrest said that “The treasure is not associated with a structure,” he meant that NO structures were associated with ANYTHING related to the treasure hunt –
        wwwh – Not associated with a structure,
        canyon down – ditto
        hoB – ditto
        Meek place – ditto etc.
        As usual, there can be multiple meanings to Forrest’s words. We may HEAR what Forrest is saying, but are we UNDERSTANDING what he means? JMO – JDA

          • An architect designs buildings (structures) – most, to the best of my knowledge, construct only models of their proposed buildings or structures. – they do not actually construct the buildings. They check to see that the blueprints are being followed, probably, but no actual construction – JMO – JDA

      • I think that I got that from a conversation that F had with Cynthia. She had posted that recently. But I could be wrong. Dal had posted that he discovered that Bakers Hole near West Yellowstone was formerly known as Brown’s Camp. This would be a good example of how the Home of Brown may not be a structure. And it’s a great place to put in for fishing. IMHO

      • Hi Heidini: mark me down in the camp that believes none of the nine clues is associated with a manmade structure. If Forrest really thought the poem would still be solvable in 1000 or 10,000 years (though harder then), it casts serious doubt on the theory that any of the clues could be a structure, whether buildings, roads, bridges, towers, monuments, what have you.

        • I now quite agree. Trashed my old (structure associated hoB) in favor of a near-by Natural hoB – Much happier now, although I liked the other one quite a bit – Took a bit of “cogitating” to figure out the Brown connection, but once found “It Works” – “Don’t you just love it when a good plan comes together?” – JDA

          • Oh JDA,
            You said the wonderful words: don’t ya love when a perfect plan comes together!
            Respectfully, Martha

      • Along these same lines…it might be smart to think about “known” as well as “unknown/not discovered” “sites” can be historical in nature and limited access either in place now or in future. Folks are finding/ rediscovering these frequently. This can be a limiter.

        • I have wondered about this Ken, as it relates to my new hoB. If this area has a past history that I am presently unaware of (but hope to do some research on), and it is related to a later hoB, this would be significant for me.

          As I said, I plan to do quite a bit of research during the winter recess on this area, to see what I can find – JDA

          • JDA…The reading and deciphering of the poem and finding the “correct” first clue is probably the key to the correct solve.
            My opinion matters not…but I think the nine clues could be compromised by time if they referred to “structural” or “man made” characteristics specifically. Who the heck knows…?
            Fenn has said it repeatedly…solve the poem….sounds simple. HA !
            As a side bar….anything that can be substantiated as a “true” statement from Fenn should be looked at with an open mind….no matter the source.

      • In Mr. Fenn’s book, “Too Far To Walk”, he tells his story of swimming there in the nude when he was a young man; his secret bathing spot.

      • Seems plausible. I have also considered the popular swimming area at the top of Firehole Canyon.
        But my gut keeps leading me to believe the “halt” part makes it more of a significant separation, eg Firehole joining the Gibbon, or Madison crossing the Yellowstone Park boundary, the latter not working for me because I don’t see a canyon to take it down at that location.

        • Hayduke – There are many who lean toward the confluence of the rivers at Madison Junction as a starting point and then search down toward the West Entrance and beyond.

          A few think there should be a shotgun start next year at Madison Junction (wear your running shoes) but that would scare the bison! IMO

          • the madison and firehole junction is a really good wwwh, take the madison canyon down, not far, i take this as a short distance but seperate from tftw. i feel tftw is the pecific place he floated down the madison to bakers hole. put in below the hob, lots of options here, bears,fish,beavers… does anyone know what the name of forrests boss was when he was a paperboy? forrest says it was a dirty name,brown? dirt is usually brown. no place for the meek i presume because of the bears that live there. the end is ever drawing nigh, turn left?, ending soon? no paddle up your creek,just heavy loads and water high. does that just simply describe the tributary we need to be at? a small creek with a mountain lake at the top maybe 9500 feet elevation? gonna be a busy place next year.

          • my first mental imagery after reading “heavy loads and water high” was the stonefly hatch below Quake Lake

          • When I consider the lines and his words in a soft sense, considering a place where one that has spent time in that area would want to be laid to rest, I keep feeling drawn towards the West Fork area, or some place like that, very serene, woody, and yeah, a little scary.

      • That was in response to Michael Henderson’s comet above saying that F said that the HOB was not a structure.

    • Warm is subjected to interruption like Webster: : an ocean or sea not in the arctic or antarctic regions. The one true fact I believe is water stops being warm when it freezes. If you have been wise you will know that place.

      • Warm is a matter of perspective imo. Is water warm before it reaches its boiling point or warm before it reaches a freezing point? Is water warm in Liquid state or solid? So in my opinion warm water is from 32.1 degrees to 212 degrees

    • MH –

      Same question I always have for the Ojo Caliente Springs crowd.

      Why?

      Why do you select Ojo Caliente Spring for Warm Waters Halt?

      Lugnutz

      • The conversation about WWWH belongs on the WWWH page…same for HOB discussions…They belong on the HOB page…
        This page is for general discussions about the nine clues…

    • A couple years ago I first heard about the Chase. I found the Grizzly Lake area to be promising, I emailed Forrest asking if it was wise to go to Winter Creek in Yellowstone. His response- “No its too cold, stay by the fire. f”

      That led me to the Firehole (but obviously he could just be saying don’t go out in the winter). No need to go over the significance of that famous river, or even the potential clues that fit to get there, it’s just the finish that matters here.. his favorite swimming spot.

      On Google Earth, there was a geo-tagged Panoramio picture of Sapphire Pool tagged right beside the Ojo Caliente. Not sure if its still there.

      The person who posted the picture is named Steve Mason. It is the only image ever posted by this person and it was posted on September 24, 2009 (9-24-2009). 9 clues, 24 lines, potential time of hiding. The coordinates of the image are 45 deg N -111 deg W. 45 – 111 = -66. (166 words in the poem, 66,000 links north of Sante Fe, 42 pounds + 24 lines = 66). Obvious question here…why would a person post only one picture and in the wrong spot? And on that date and coordinate? And of something (sapphire) that is in the chest, and the word fire (blaze) is “in a word” sa-pphire? And in a mega-sacred spot to Forrest? Simply put, it all just doesn’t make sense to me. Unless, Steve is Forrest.

      Also, Sapphire is the stone of wisdom.. And the stone of the 9th month September is Sapphire.

      A man named Steve Mason was a famous Vietnam Veteran poet, and is called the Poet Laureate of the Vietnam Veterans of America. He read an amazing poem at the dedication of the Vietnam Memorial in Washington in 1984. He died in 2005 of cancer. He was a strong proponent for death with dignity (a topic very much connected to Forrest’s life), and a truly inspiring individual. There are more curious things connecting Steve and Forrest, if you are interested I am sure you’ll find them. Who better than this great vet poet to stand over a soldier’s memorial?

      The Sapphire Pool picture points to logs that I now know are naturally arranged. They were not moved by a person, like I had hoped. The image is tagged to a 4-looking log formation, and if you look quickly down, there is an F formation of logs not far. I checked the F (which I was the most excited about), I checked the 4, and kicked all of the surrounding logs and rocks in that whole area and did not find the chest. I also checked the real Sapphire Pool area south of there without any luck.

      Maybe I am just a step short, who knows. I also feel compelled to let people know that my friends and I thoroughly checked the logs, trees, and rocks in that Ojo Caliente field when there was no snow on the ground and did not find anything. I don’t want someone to make the expensive trip to Yellowstone for those logs alone. If anyone does pick up this trail, good luck, stay safe, and don’t trespass down Fountain Flats Drive when it’s closed. Side note: This was a couple years ago. I should have just bought crypto.

  3. Anyone consider Halt as speed-?- in relationship to wwwh…
    I mean, if halt means stop in the conventional sense, change in speed relates to both definitions of the word; to stop, and a temporary change in movement… Not unlike marching to a stop to make a left hand turn.
    The AND in the line seems to mean; in addition to. And not so much merging with…such as hot and cold producing warm, line of thinking.

    Note; if all we’re doing is attempting to understand wwwh only… ship this thought. My point also relates to other parts of the poem as well. One part might be why “quickly” is references or why Tarry scant might refer to a short amount of time for gazing.

    End of commentary.

  4. As I have gone alone in there!
    Brown!
    Canyon!
    Put in below the home of BROWN!
    No place for the Meek!
    Their be no paddle up your creek!
    Just heavy load and water high!
    If you been wise and found the blaze look quickly down your quest to seek!
    Your efforts will be worth the cold if you are brave and in the wood!
    My nine clues!

  5. Just for fun and not to scare Spallies too much.

    TTOTC page 135 (1+3+5=9 ) f tells us how to calculate the length of metal required to make a horseshoe, or L = 2x + 1.

    Sorry Spallies, not only might math be involved, but algebra might be as well.

    Just saying…….. pinatubocharlie

    • Tarry scant… Tarry point equation and 9 point circle.

      If so… is it special knowledge if the reader is told what they might need?
      Does a clue need to be a reference of a “place” only?
      If we’re supposed to draw lines to find an X.. what do these equations do?
      This also give credence to why fenn may have felt it necessary to tell the reader; the poem “9” contains not clues to follow precisely and/or why the poem alone can be solved by its “words” alone… Nope.
      But even if so… the clues still need to be deciphered to what they refer to, prior to this idea of mathematics. But they at would show exactly where if, the other clue references are correct.

      Theoretical at best….

        • Imagination is more important than knowledge – or something to that effect. Knowing the definition of a word is fine, having the imagination to know HOW that word should be used may be the key – Just a thought – (And it hurts when I do that 🙂 )

          • There are numbers in the poem…
            we talk about some of them all the time.
            9 lines, 9 sentences, 6 stanzas [ I mean why are there 6 is all you’re going to use in 3 of them ] Where told to analyze the poem;
            ~examine *methodically* and in *detail* the constitution or *structure* of (something, especially information), typically for purposes of *explanation and interpretation.*

            Each word was deliberate, right? and risky to discount them, right?

      • “Theoretical at best”….especially remembering that the #9(number of clues) was not planned according to Fenn’s comments.
        I believe threading the words together in the correct order and meaning will result in the correct solve.
        Add to that…it is also probably imperative to identify the necessary hints beforehand…and hold a shotgun wedding right on that spot on the map!

        • ken,
          You don’t need all 9 clues to be places to figure out the equation… some of the clues, such as Tarry scant is information needed to be known.
          *In geometry, the Tarry point T for a triangle ABC is a point of concurrency of the lines through the vertices of the triangle perpendicular to the corresponding sides of the triangle’s first Brocard triangle…*

          Really you only need three point to create the need to know point. It’s the points that are needed to be deciphered with the rest being instructions.

          Tesla,
          LOL did you think it was going to be easy?

          • Seeker…That’s a great theory…one that I have looked at early on in my searching. The “tarry point” was in one of my early solves. Unless the educational system improves dramatically…I highly doubt this approach allows a “level” playing field for all. This seems to put a good majority of folks at a serious disadvantage right off the bat.
            This particular math setting is not for everyone…although it can be taught to the willing. Seems “specialized” at the start…but good arguments for sure.

  6. Alex,

    Welcome to insane asylum and I sincerely hope you find a job soon. Maybe that environment will soon improve.

    pinatubocharlie

    • From there it’s no place for the meek,
      The end is ever drawing nigh;
      There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
      Just heavy loads and water high.

      Considering the purpose and use of a semicolon, how would it seem if words were used instead of the semicolon…

      From there it’s no place for the meek,
      The end is ever drawing nigh because
      There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
      Just heavy loads and water high.

      From there it’s no place for the meek,
      The end is ever drawing nigh since
      There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
      Just heavy loads and water high.

      From there it’s no place for the meek,
      The end is ever drawing nigh as
      There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
      Just heavy loads and water high.

      • The use of commas and semicolon simply give a pause for the reader.
        Not unlike; “Look quickly down” comma ~{pause or add a thought ~ your quest to cease/ be finalized} But~ in addition to ~ gaze at for you’re quest to be finalize.

        In stanza three the information can simply be saying that ~ no place for the meek IS heavy loads and water high. The information between is added information, not unlike the example above… The end is near for your quest to cease… there’ll be no paddle up your creek but tarry scant with marvel gaze.

        This reading is not moving words around… its nothing more than understanding what is being told. Not unlike begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down. “Take it in” can mean view of the canyon at where you begin… And… look in the canyon down, as understanding of what is being instructed to do.

        I’d be very leery to add a word, and it meaning, to replace a comma or any punctuation. { see what I did there?} even if it’s only in thought.

        End of commentary…

        • “The use of commas and semicolon simply give a pause for the reader.”

          Not for me. They ARE distinguishable. If you don’t take my view, hit the net sites for grammar use.
          So the question is(for me at least), was FF’s use of the semicolon deliberate or not?

          • I say yes. it had to be deliberate fenn said in many ways he crafted the poem… ever word was deliberate. So the use of punctuation had to be as well.
            The idea is to know why they are where they are. But has far as grammar use… or properly used, I have to revert to fenn’s comment [ I’ll try to find it later ] He basically has control as a writer to pause the reader when he wants… academically correct or not.

          • The semicolon use was deliberate in my estimation. Proper sentence structure would allow for only two possible punctuation marks, the semicolon or a period.

            Using a period would have been as proper but would have created 10 complete sentences. By employing the semicolon ff created 9 complete sentences.

            Having 10 sentences in the poem would have given the poem less profundity of meaning.

            Crafting the poem to contain exactly 9 sentences has created endless debate over the use of the semicolon.

            The punctuation of the poem is meaningless to the solving of the clues. How deep a hole do you wish to dig for yourself? IMO

            Forrest is a sly old fox. FACT

          • I do not believe Fenn crafted the poem so that it “HAD” to have 9 clues. He has said that was just happenstance. I tend to believe him…

  7. FF mentions the words in the poem and not to ignore any of them but I never heard / saw a quote about punctuation.

    • He uses “And” to start a line 4 times. Only one use of a semicolon, so I am trying to see the significance of it.

        • The three little ducks mean nothing without the right map….and in the Xmas spirit I put that out there only for thought….there is quite a bit more to it.

    • Covert One: it’s probably not a quote that’s as well known, but Forrest has actually provided some guidance on punctuation in a reply to Mindy once upon a time:

      “Mindy, I would never encourage you to ‘screw responsibility,’ as you say. I have encouraged everyone to get out in the mountains, but you should always think of your family first. Please don’t become obsessed with the search like some others. I have always said the poem will lead you to the treasure if you have the right map and know where to start. It is straight forward so there is no need to over-think it or look for commas and misspellings as clues. It was not written with the idea of fooling anyone.” F’

      • Zap,
        And there is the mention of the RIGHT map… and that map should able to be found on GE… “GE and/or a good map” comment. If that is not helpful, I don’t know what is.
        As to the commas… they are there in the poem and can’t be ignored… technically a poem doesn’t need commas or even periods if the poem is staggered by stanzas.
        Do you recall fenn talking about the academic rules of commas and he uses commas when “he want” someone to pause…? That comment is not second had information either. I’m not saying Mindy didn’t quote fenn accurately… but we don’t know the whole conversation either, to put context to fenn’s reply.

        • There is a stark difference between leaving out a semicolon vs using one, IMO.
          Disregard it how you will; it takes no skin off my back; it may not matter.
          🙂

          • LOL Hayduke,
            I’ve used and abuse that colon so bad, I have to register every time I move to another state to search for the treasure.

        • Thanks Loco ! I knew where it came from. Another searcher had brought it to my attention(through private email) back when all that transpired…I was just interested in other folks having that same advantage. It seems to be a dead issue…

          • Oh…and “you” can email me anytime in regards to anything…just refer to this post and get email from Dal.

    • I read about it on wikipedia just now, and nothing there would correspond in any way, shape or form with your use of “easier”.
      LMAO
      🙂
      I’m too old for that kind of geometry, or whatever that falls under.

    • Covert
      That gave me an “Ah Ha….now I have a headache moment”.
      Thanks.
      Now, when you got to WordPress how did you make your quilt go away?
      I like the new picture.

    • Covert One, that Tarry Point triangle is a whopping brainstormer BUT to my surprise at first glance, my points of interest look as tho they may just fit. Got plenty of time to head scratch on it til the snow melts.
      Thanks for sharing!!
      🙂

      • Oh my,
        Smoking…..I have to o plenty of time to think this winter!
        Someone needs to find that hot box and put out the fire!
        I’m so sorry I missed and opportunity of completion and really talking to the wonderful man!
        I know he called me, but didn’t talk to me!
        I thought about that for several weeks!
        I could be totally wrong, but my intuition got the better of me!
        That’s no way to play, it could get you killed, it’s
        Surreal!
        No emotion is the way!
        Respectfully,
        MJ

      • Smoking Bear – the Tarry Point depiction can be graphically over-layed if you want to see if it fits your solve. I don’t know if that has anything to do with the correct solve, just put it out there as it had really cool angles and stuff….oh, and designated points and dashed lines along with solid lines.

  8. Hi Guys,

    I’ve figured out the nine clues, you take the first letter of each clue and add it to the first letter of the next clue and so on.

    Once you have solved all nine clues you get the following answer;

    Clue 1. O
    Clue 2. A
    Clue 3. K

    Clue 4. I
    Clue 5. S
    Clue 6. L
    Clue 7. A
    Clue 8. N
    Clue 9. D

    The Treasure Chest is hidden in the money pit X marks the spot.

    It’s too far for me to go and get it, so if any of you guys fancy going and getting it then please remember who told you where the T.C was.

    Ronnie the Scot

      • Covert One and Ronnie the Scott – What Ronnie doesn’t know, is that he probably brought home some Elemental Spirits with the bronze chest, who are most likely cousins of the Brownies in Ireland and the Little People, who hide in caves in the Pryor Mountains in Wyoming. Good luck with that, Ronnie.

    • whoa, Covert, that’s not too far to walk from my favorite fishing hole on the Madison

      thanks for the imagery share, that is pretty cool

    • Covert One.
      Can you make an equal sided square using just circles?
      This system only involves two stick with equally length rope tied to both, and four circles placed side by side of another. The very edge of those circle are now used to have an exact square of any chosen size.

      It’s how the pyramid’s base was calculated for the amount of weight it could hold to it’s height and angle. Over 4000 years ago.
      While the diagram you shown was a bit overwhelming… it’s not impossible to understand.
      http://jwilson.coe.uga.edu/EMT668/EMT668.Folders.F97/Anderson/geometry/geometry1project/construction/construction.html

      9 point circle’s equation came from tarry point’s method.
      Does the math [ if involved with the chase ] have to be just as overwhelming or will a triangulation be enough.
      The idea isn’t about the math at all really, and more towards the idea, the poem telling us what we need to be precise.

      Or that line could just be saying … get the heck out of there before you get caught.

        • My point was not so much the math, as much as, is the poem telling us to use math?

          I’m not saying Tarry scant truly means Tarry point… lol but ya can’t argue that’s not a good thought.
          We are told to follow 9 clues precisely… looking for a 10″ sq pieces of land. It would be logical to think that some sorta calculation would be involved even if it was simple pacing. But IF so, there must be points to follow using math, right?
          Fenn said he didn’t write the poem an “architect” did… said he “designed” and “crafted” the poem, and not to discount any words. Fenn talks about navigation school, and how many flights he had and tell us we need to decipher 9 clues and marry the clues to a place etc etc.

          So I’m simply asking for feed back about not only what calculation might be involved [using an example I posted as a kick starter], but does anyone else see how the poem can be read as such…? Any and all parts of the poem.

          End of point.

          • …testy, testy…I don’t share my methods.

            Sorry Seeker – good luck in the chase! Stay Safe!

          • Covert,
            What exactly was testy?
            I don’t care if you don’t want to share your methods… I never asked for your method… I asked “…does anyone else see how the poem can be read as such…? ”

            Good lord, if ya don’t like what I say, at least give “reasons” for it. That is how a discussion works.

          • “but does anyone else see how the poem can be read as such…?”

            If so, then I may as well ‘KISS” my simple a** out of the chase here and now.

            🙂

      • **** Seeker supposed – “9 point circle’s equation came from tarry point’s method.”

        Nonsense. Back that up?

        Jake

          • Jake.
            I may have misread your question… are you asking how 9 point circle came from tarry point… Look up Dorothy Brown… she created the equation from tarry’s equation.

          • **** Seeker proposed – “are you asking how 9 point circle came from tarry point… Look up Dorothy Brown… she created the equation from tarry’s equation.” ****

            I have no idea who Dorothy Brown is or was, and can’t find anything relevant – can you point me in the right direction?

            I’m saying 9-Point Circle didn’t come from Tarry Point.

            The 9-Point Circle was done (1862) before the Tarry Point – aside from both having to do with triangles, they’re not related; neither depends on nor is derived from the other. Nor was there a Dorothy Brown involved in either that I know of.

            Gaston Tarry (of the Tarry Point) is more interesting (maybe even useful, though I doubt it) for his 1895 solution to the problem of labyrinths/mazes, translated here:

            http://www.cantab.net/users/michael.behrend/repubs/maze_maths/pages/tarry_lab_en.html

            JD or voxpops might find something in it – their solves seem to me to be more labyrinthine style than the other more treasure-map style solutions I’ve read about.

            Jake

      • Seeker,

        You said “Can you make an equal sided square using just circles?”

        You’re trying too hard… By definition, a square is “equal sided” . No need for circles.

        K.I.S.S. {Keep It Simple Stupid}

        • LOL seriously, fennatical… four circles cant make a sq. by my explanation. The Egyptians, The Inca, The Maya etc, used this technique thousands of years ago…. at least that is what the ‘archeologist’ claim.

          LOL is this getting to, difficult but not impossible for some?

  9. Warm is subjected to interruption like Webster: : an ocean or sea not in the arctic or antarctic regions. The one true fact I believe is water stops being warm when it freezes. If you have been wise you will know that place.

  10. Only 9 clues???
    Sure, there are 9 clues in the poem. We all know that WWWH is the first of those 9 clues because Forrest has stated that.
    But why are we so focused on the poem’s 9 clues when there are more clues than just those 9? Plus “…hints in the book that will help you with clues in the poem.”
    The book contains hints and clues. Forrest has said it contains hints. He also wrote that there are clues in it.
    “There are other subtle clues sprinkled in the stories” TTOTC pg. 133
    “Unlock the clues that are scattered among these pages….” TTOTC dust jacket.
    Some use his quote, ‘Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f’ They ‘assume’ he said TTOTC because it contains the poem and ‘obviously’ all the clues.
    I would have to disagree with their assumption.
    The two quotes from the book state that there a clues ‘in the stories’ and ‘among the pages.’ The 9 clues in the poem therefore CAN’T be the ONLY clues. The poem is only written on one page in the book. There are more than just 9 clues.
    How many are in the book? Only Forrest knows that answer. Perhaps only 2. Maybe 10. Possibly more.
    Rather than completely focusing on WWWH and the HOB (which Forrest has also stated is a poem clue) and some of the other lines which some believe or don’t believe are clues, perhaps we need to start putting more of our energy into the book which very well could contain more clues than the poem itself.
    This is just my opinion.
    Good luck all.

    • Hi Kevin….a long time ago, I stated I think there were 11 clues embedded.

      I really haven’t changed my view, but I did change my view on how to look at a hint and a clue.

      FF stated the hints will help with the clues, but the clues will lead you to the treasure.

      What about those hints/clues that do both?

      Now you can’t discard it as a hint because it is a clue, but you can’t discard it as a clue, because it is a hint.

      11 clues.

  11. Upthread, JDA wrote:
    “… when Forrest said that “The treasure is not associated with a structure,” he meant that NO structures were associated with ANYTHING related to the treasure hunt –
    wwwh – Not associated with a structure,
    canyon down – ditto
    hoB – ditto
    Meek place – ditto etc.
    As usual, there can be multiple meanings to Forrest’s words. We may HEAR what Forrest is saying, but are we UNDERSTANDING what he means? JMO – JD”
    ———————————————————————————————-

    Okay, JDA, kindly quote FF’s comments that he said that a man-made structure is not associated with ANY of the nine clues.

    Here’s what FF has said:
    in one interview >>> “I said on the Today show that the TREASURE is not associated with any structure … The clues can lead you to the TREASURE, and it will be there waiting when you arrive.”

    .. in the above statement he’s talking about the chest; he clearly distinguishes between treasure and clues.

    in a second interview, a woman asked FF this question: “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits?” FF’s response >>> “Yes d, it means the TREASURE is not hidden in or about a structure.”

    Again, JDA, please show us where Forrest Fenn himself (not some searcher) has ruled out structures for all 9 clues. And if you can show that, how exactly do you reconcile that newer statement with his above earlier statements that “not associated with any structure” applies ONLY to the treasure chest?

    Thanks,

    Ken (in Texas)

    • I agree, Ken. Also, there is the quote “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did.” This leads me to believe that at lease one clue didn’t exist when F was a kid, otherwise he could have said all. This means it could be man made. So, to narrow one’s solution to one with no structures could be too limiting. IMO.

      • JBL…this is a great point that has garnered a lot of discussion over the years. There are good arguments to be made about what exactly that ATF means.
        I believe that the clues did not exist when he was a kid….because he had not created/made them clues at that time. He did that when he planned and created the Chase.
        The second part is more subjective and open to different interpretation. I believe that Fenn is saying that the clues(9 of them) are places. The word “most” is where it gets tricky…and yes…I tend to think that at least one of those places(clue) did not exist as such when he was a kid. Is that a “correct” assumption? I am not sure of anything….

        • Yes, I believe that because of the uncertainty, someone should not eliminate a place because it is man made. To do so could lead him/her to a wrong solution. In other words, only certainties can lead to the elimination of places. JMO

        • Ken ~ I believe that Fenn is saying that the clues(9 of them) are places. The word “most” is where it gets tricky…and yes…I tend to think that at least one of those places(clue) did not exist as such when he was a kid. Is that a “correct” assumption?

          Could be… or that most of the clue are places but not all the clues are places.

          How can NFBTFTW be a place? It could be, but in plain English it doesn’t seem so.
          The end is ever drawing nigh, might be questionable as a place… that sounds like not far or too far.
          Is “wise” a clue? or fenn just saying ya had to be smart enough to figure out where the blaze is.
          “Tarry scant” a clue referring to a place? is it a clue at all?
          Why does there have to be 9 places to match 9 clues?
          water halt
          canyon
          hob
          Is meek a place? or is meek “just” HLNWH
          HL and WH
          Blaze.
          I can only count to five places… mainly because I need the other hand to point to the fingers on the first hand… but that’s neither here nor there…
          Show me 9 places of references?

          • Fundamental;
            I’m gonna need a bit more..
            Are you saying just because “from there” takes you do a place that is not for the meek. line of thinking? And to that, HLaWH is a separate places? or any of the other lines in that stanza…

            They could be one in the same… “from, wherever,” the remaining line of no meek, and drawing nigh, and no paddle up your creek, could just be directions and what is seen as we make out way to the next place HLaWH… making HLaWH ~ no place for the meek to get to “From there”

            Then, what might be possible [ but many don’t like to think it ] is, WWWH
            HOB, HLaWH are the only ‘places’ the clues represent until you have found the blaze… the question now is… is the blaze represented by HLaWH to look quickly down from?

            I mean if I said, start at Joe’s go down the road a country mile to the brown house and from there it’s a bit nasty of a drive because the end of this section of the road is pot-holed. At the end is a rock quarry and water tower.
            How many places are there to reference?
            Joe’s
            a brown house
            A quarry and water tower…. right?
            The other “clues” are really nothing… but if you not on the right track and don’t see them as explained a country mile and rough road or and end to the road …you didn’t go the right way.

            The line simply say it’s “no place for the meek…” not that meek is a place. The only real place that appears next is whatever HLaWH refers to.

            This could be the reason the other searchers walked by all the clues… they wanted 9 places to stomp to, when there could only be 3 actual references to a ‘place’… before the blaze, that is. lol but once we’re at the blaze… “from there”~the blaze, it should be obvious to how far it is to the chest [per fenn’s Q&A]

            In theory….

          • Seeker, you said…The line simply say it’s “no place for the meek…” not that meek is a place.

            Yes, you’re right that’s what the line says. I didn’t say that meek is a place.

            You said it yourself…it’s no place for the meek even though you didn’t include a quotation mark before the word it’s.

            It’s no place for the meek acts like a double negative if one considers meek in a negative connotation. That means that line can read From there, it’s the place for the opposite of the meek (an antonym). This simply means there’s a possibility that the line can read From there, it is the place for the confident searcher.

            Just one what if…

          • Fundamental,
            Or meek refers to the brave. And in the wood refers to HL and water high. Which might refer to wwwh and it all is one location below hoB.

            The poem sound like a high elevated lake, snow melt fed in the location of HoB.

            I’ll go a step further and say all the other clues seem to be sight as seen…
            What one would see if standing at the chest.

            In theory…

          • being a fly-fisherman,
            And having fished the Madison, Firehole, Yellowstone, Henrys Fork et al; I interpret “heavy loads” from THAT perspective.

            And, I appreciate reading others’ perspectives.

        • Hi ken — I always keep in mind that a “deep thinking” searcher using logic would have to consider the possibility that “most” in this context could also mean “all”. Any number from 5-9 would qualify based purely on logic/math. Of course, if any of the 9 clues are NOT places, then Forrest’s “most” can be a number less than 5.

          • Ding Ding Ding ! Bonus round….
            ” I tend to think…” and…”Is that a….” was the “catch” at the end.
            After a bazillion(like the ants on the tree) trips around the proverbial tree that is where my thinking has led me.
            This sort of sets or alludes to a pattern of Fenn giving the straight answer while disguising it in a shroud of mystery/vagueness. A food for thought sort of scenario.
            Is this still the “correct” avenue? Couldn’t say one way or the other…but I’m going with it until something else better comes along.
            And Seeker…you know I always look forward to your “look see”. In my scenario…I am looking at the statement as a whole. Fenn starts by saying ” the clues”…at this point I am inferring that is an ALL inclusive( 9clues) blanket statement from him. Why would he then jump to only “some” clues in the same description? I don’t know…but I can’t assume he is then being exclusive…and make the ATF true for sure. Or at least make myself feel better about it. I’m still reconciling keeping my wants and needs out of the picture. Keep it coming…

          • Ken, oops ken,
            The easy assumption is fenn didn’t jump to ‘some clues’… a clue is a clue whether a place or not.
            So most of the “places” that the clues refer to ~as places~ did. [ it doesn’t matter what the number of places are unless you try and force all clues to be places]
            This might say that the non-placed clues are of fenn’s making ~ imagination to understand; such as NFBTFTW… a possible non-place but still a clue nevertheless.
            Just that line in the poem as a non-place makes ‘Most’ of the clues references places, and around when fenn was a kid.
            It the same as fenn saying the clues didn’t exist when he was a kid because he didn’t ‘think’ of them as a clue. but the places he used as physical clues were, the other clues are made by him through thought.

          • “Around or not around when Forrest was a boy.” “Place or not a place”?
            Recognized as a clue today or not.
            Following is my opinion:
            wwwh – a place that existed. Not recognized as a clue.
            NFBTFTW – a distance A to B
            hoB – existed as a place – not recognized as a clue.
            No meek place – existed, but not as it is recognized today. – most would not recognize it as a clue today.
            End ever drawing nigh – existed, not recognized as it is today.
            No paddle up your creek – existed – Some would probably recognize it as a clue.
            Heavy Loads and Water High – existed – recognized
            Blaze – existed, not recognized as a blaze
            Tarry Scant – existed, not recognized – most would not recognize “it” as a clue today.
            Just my opinion – JDA

      • **** JBL quoted – ““The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did.” This leads me to believe that at lease one clue didn’t exist when F was a kid” ****

        The Hebgen “Quake Lake” earthquake was 1959.

        From around the same time we have Flaming Gorge Reservoir and Navajo Lake as major man-made features.

        Glen Canyon Dam and Lake Powell are also of that time but off the Chase map. But remember that the battle over its construction involved a trade-off for NOT building a proposed dam and reservoir at Echo Park in Dinosaur Nat’l Monument (CO), at the confluence of the Yampa and Green Rivers. (I only mention this one as I think it precludes Echo Park as a possible chest location – ff would know a potential revival of that proposal would submerge the chest under a reservoir).

        Those are the biggest ones that come to mind. Then there’s Fossil Butte and Florissant Fossil Beds’ designations as Nat’l Monuments.

        Also, we’re reading the quote as
        “most of the places the clues refer to ALREADY did [exist when I was a kid]” [but some came later].

        There’s a remote possibility, but maybe worth a moment’s thought, that he instead meant
        “most of the places the clues refer to STILL did [exist when I was a kid]” [but may not now exist].

        Jake

  12. Covert One and Lisa,

    I did find what I thought was indulgence, however when I took it to an expert to find out it’s true value it turned out to be a very good replica.

    I just had a thought maybe some of you guy’s came over to Scotland and hid the replica indulgence underneath Edinburgh Castle to throw us Scots of the trail.

    Haggis Mcbagpipes is investigating this at the moment, however further investigation may need to be carried out and may take several months to complete.

    Mel Gibson has also offered to help Haggis Mcbagpipes with the investigation if he so wishes.

    Having done some further research I now believe it’s possibly on oak island or Lisa as you would say my island (Ireland) although there is no proof of this at the moment.

    While I’m here and as a matter of interest can any of you guy’s tell me where the 1980s series Grizzly Adams was filmed?

    Ronnie the Scot

      • Jeannie,

        The crew must have been brave whilst they where filming the series.

        Ronnie the Scot

        • Ronnie, I think you should tell your friend Haggis McBaggis that a person can only eat so many bad fish before it catches up with them, they will do anything to make it stop!

          • Jeannie,

            I told my friend Haggis Mcbagpipes about what you said regarding eating to many bad fish.

            His response was that he would rather see you eating to many bad fish and not eat to much haggis as they are an endangered species

            Ronnie the Scot

    • Ronnie:

      Not much more, but more about Grizzly Adams: Sunn Classic Pictures headquarters were in Park City, Utah along with the primary cabin set location. Almost all of the filming was done there and in the surrounding areas including Heber Valley to the south and Uinta Mountains to the east. Most times, weather was not an adverse factor in filming, yet some filming was done at two alternate, look-alike locations in Payson, Arizona (nearby Pine and Strawberry, too) and Ruidosa, New Mexico.

      The show’s opening featured the snow-stormy peak of Utah’s Mt. Timpanogos (The Sleeping Princess or just “Mt. Timp”) which is the second highest peak in the Wasatch Range. My wife and I climbed Mt. Timp over Labor Day holiday weekend 1977. It was 14 hours 21.2 miles round-trip, yet not too far too for us to walk from Robert (Bob’s) Redford’s home in nearby Sundance, Utah.

      Here’s a photo of us on that day with about 1,500 feet to go after traversing what we called “The Saddle”.

      https://i1.wp.com/kidutah.files.wordpress.com/2017/12/utah-hebervalley-mttimpanogos-trail-1977-labordayweekend-21-2milehikeglenda-collage0.jpg?ssl=1&w=450

      Enjoy…Chase Well…Stay safe…

      • Hi Kid Utah, I used to hang out in that area myself, it’s beautiful! And I used to have a terrible crush on Bobby Redford but eventually someone else came along. I lost a bracelet that I bought at Sundance, that thing had a lot of sentimental value to me, such is life, right?

      • KidUtah,

        Many thanks for all that information, that was one of my favorite programs when I was a kid.

        I still remember the song from all those years ago.

        That’s what I also like about Dals Blog getting this kind of info, whilst being on the chase.

        Nice photos, that was a good hike that you guy’s done that day.

        Not far, but too far to walk carrying 42 Ibs

        Ronnie the Scot

        • Ronnie,
          My wife and I easily could have packed-out 42 lbs on our return trip even though her knees were not in the best of shape due to a prior skiing mishap. In some other adventures, I often muled a fairly heavy pack with minimal overnight gear – just in case – and my wife a lighter day-pack load. I don’t recall it a difficult trek and we could have done it in less time save for a couple factors. We hiked with 8 friends and we all relaxed & roamed a bit too long around the upper alpine basin / Emerald Lake area before starting our ascent up the Saddle then final leg to the summit where we stayed only about 20 mins. We returned back the way we came down the east side of the mountain and about 2/3rds of the way back it was already dark when two women in our group could no longer walk. One had twisted an ankle and the other had some very bad foot blisters. We took turns carrying the two at a much slower, deliberate pace with many rest stops. Most of the time it was piggyback style, although on some wider trail sections we did two-man chair seat carries. We reached the trailhead about 3 hours later than we had planned. Only a couple times since have my knees ever ached so much from the constant downward pounding of such weight. Given I’m a bit more tired and weakened today, I nonetheless intend to go alone in there and mule-out 42 lbs of Indulgence – first I need to locate her!
          Chase well…Stay safe…

  13. Dal- at the top of this thread you write…”what is the next clue.” i notice a period instead of a question mark. so you are not actually asking us searchers what we think the next clue is, you made a statement…”what is the next clue. ” (period) so i will tell you what is the next clue. and im not asking any questions either, making a statement. :the canyon down is the next clue. it is a distance from wwwh to hob. it is too far to walk.

    i never understood how we are supposed to start at wwwh and then go in the canyon down to hob. because most likely, we passed hob on the way UP the canyon to wwwh. well, if we went to wwwh from the east anyway. those coming from the west took the long route. so there is your second clue Mr. Nietzel.

    i think

    • “i never understood how we are supposed to start at wwwh and then go in the canyon down to hob. because most likely, we passed hob on the way UP the canyon to wwwh”

      kind of sounds like you are discounting your solve yourself

      • HaydukeCC:

        Simple explanation: You are driving from point A to point Z.
        At some point, you stop and look at the scenery (Point B) – Now let’s say that point B turns out to be wwwh.

        You continue on down the road (happens to be a canyon). You stop again to stretch your legs (Point C)
        Happens that point C is hoB.

        Back into the car, and continue to point Z (passing the other clues as you merrily drive down the road.

        That would be one way. JMO – JDA

      • Sorry HaydukeCC – I had not read the post above yours from dodo bird. My response should have been directed to him – Sorry – JDA

      • hey duck CC- everything i write confirms what i already know and confounds what you think you know.

        its the Dodo’s revenge.

        i think.

      • What if there are two canyons in close proximity to WWWH. One is at a lower elevation than the other. Could “canyon down” be a search area and not a direction of travel?

        • richard;

          Where do the two canyons lead? Does one lead to a spot that could be called a hoB? If so, take that one, If neither lead to a logical hoB – go look in a different area – Just my advice – JDA

    • Dodo Bird,
      How big is this canyon -?- that fenn left his car went down,the canyon and up to the hide, turned around at the hide, back down and up the canyon to his car, turned around, and back down and up the canyon again to the hide, and turn around and down and back up the canyon to the car?

      Just curious.

    • dodo bird,
      My favorite solve in western Colorado is a case in point. I drive in from the east UP the canyon heading toward wwwh, but pass HoB first before reaching it. There is a way to drive in from the west and cross wwwh, but it is much more roundabout and would take a lot more time.

      • McKendree- passing hob on the way to wwwh is why FF stated that if he told what hob was, we would go right to it.

        i think.

  14. My question above about poem clues and man-made structures, in response to JDA, still has not been answered, least of all by JDA..

    FF’s actual comments say that “not associated with a structure” apply only to the chest, not to all 9 clues.

    Subsequent comments got off-topic to a discussion about “places”. I wasn’t talking about places the 9 clues refer to.

    Good grief, with meandering, non-focused “thinking”, no wonder the chest has not been found.

    I won’t ask again. I have a pretty good idea already of how some posters here seem to “think”.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken. I looked around at all I could see on his quotes of ” the treasure is not associated with any structure”

      1) “No need to dig up the old outhouses, the treasure is not associated with any structure.”
      2) “I said on the Today show that the treasure is not associated with any structure”.
      3) “No need to dig up the old outhouses, the treasure is not associated with any structure. The treasure is not in a graveyard. I know the treasure chest is wet.”

      I can only think to point out one thing in these quotes to investigate a sprinkle of a difference. He always says ” treasure” when spoken of associated with structure. In quote #3, in the last sentence of a same answer, he says ‘ I know the “treasure Chest is wet”. So Treasure and Treasure chest , in this lens of associated with a structure, is always the word Treasure, never inclusive with chest. That’s all my can zero in on.

      In the poem, it’s : treasures, trove, chest and gold. I just cross reference the poem and can see he has used 4 words referencing the same item of topic. They are different words . There is more than gold in the treasure chest, also.

      Could just be a simple mental skip of the word ‘chest’.

      🙂

      • Tesla,
        There might be reasoning for those word’s differences.
        To start, Treasure[s] is the only 9 letter word in the poem. Treasure by meaning is ‘possessions’ having value important to the owner [ not to say it’s not of values to any one else, But doesn’t need to be] vs. Trove as of value but no ownership.
        A chest is a container for storage… with a lid, and often with a lock. Not unlike a trunk… the two words share comparison synonyms, not only that chest is a trunk and a trunk is a chest…
        The one that I find interesting is coffin. Do you know what ‘wood’ could refer to? Hint far and nigh some times refers to the side of a horse. Wood, is the center of a horse hoof which is also know as the coffin bone. In the wood is a phrase for being in the saddle. a mountain passage is some times called the saddle. Other possible connections a horseshoe canyon.
        Can these words relate to the location?

        I’ll stop there with the examples… there are many.
        Thinking about Multiple Meanings and word usages, imo, can give insight to why the words in the poem are deliberate and none should be discounted as we are told. If we look at words and their usages, many words relate differently than what many read the poem as, at first.

        If imagination is the key to understanding the poem… why is it almost everyone who reads the poem straight forwards as it seems… never seem to know a clue when it’s right in front of them or deciphered… Will a magical figure will appear in the field? A rock that looks like an owl perhaps? Is hoB Beaver Mt. because the illusion of what it looks like?
        Does the word treasures only refer to what is in the box?
        ‘Alone’ means on ones own, not unlike a treasure being important to one, but not always of value to others…
        fenn calls this place he choice to hide the chest special…never gave thought to any other… he knew where he want his last resting place be, for both him and his chest.
        I have been puzzle by some who want to think; the place is beyond belief in beauty, a little utopia, and a walk through it, when the place could just be important, special, and held in high regards for another reason…
        Are we being told of all the treasures and hints of, riches new and old?

        Treasures and Chest and Trove imo, are important to attempt to understand. Maybe those at the clues location, just didn’t understand -?- what they were looking at or why there?

        • Seeker. Good analytics. I tend of look at the poem structure , within the story, for it to give direction for word meanings, if I can . My 9 clues locations are stanzas 2,3,4 . The totality of the poem all inclusive of the 6 stanzas, is the poems story line. IMO . Wearing the hat of this thinking , the 4 (it) words and the only (it’s) word, just may be able to be connected to a specific word they individually ( are referencing) represent. I don’t think there are two (it) words alike. These could represent , treasures bold, my trove, the chest, or the gold. An (it) could be concidered to be any one of the 9 clues also. So though a word can have multiple meanings, of course, though within the poem gives the actual intended meaning.

          What really is imagination, fundamentally? How did or does FF use imagination to function in practicality to be contiguous with physical steps (locations) and observations? This I ask myself and answer myself- it’s what poetry is! Lol . IMO .

          Poetry is the practical -applicable expression, through word usage, with imagination. The site,-the spot -may have been picked because it might be very poetic in sight, sound and experience. Could be why it’s possible to hide the chest before finishing the poem. Probably could write poetry all the day long day there- what to choose for a finally. IMO .

          I don’t really think I would bring a calculator to the Rockies to write a poem . Lol.

          Just some opinions my protein brain tries to interpret coming from the mind ( imagination)! IMO .

        • Hey Seeker, those nigh/far/wood references to equine knowlege are interesting. For discussion what say ye searchers to this spot? (personally I thought a little too far out there, distance wise, and a strenuous ‘hike’ nevermind with 42lbs. So not really, but interesting name game and why map knowlege is important (mislabeled or otherwise wrong designations)

          http://www.summitpost.org/devils-graveyard/907577

    • Ken;

      I looked for Cynthia’s quote again, but could not find it. As I remember it, Cynthia was talking to Forrest about a recent search and she mentioned that her hoB was a ruin. Forrest interrupted her and said something to the effect that – I thought that I told you that it (the treasure) was not associated with a structure.

      Since Cynthia was not talking about her final location, but rather was talking about her hoB location, to me at least, this implies that when Forrest said that the treasure was not associated with a structure, he was saying that there is no structure associated with ANY of the clues in the treasure hunt.

      I MAY be wrong, but since Cynthia was talking about hoB, and then was interrupted and Forrest said something like – I thought I told you that the treasure is not associated with a structure – I get the impression that NO structures are associated with ANY of the clues – how do you interpret these words? JDA

      • My advice to all searchers would be to try to solve the clues without preconditions and see if they lead you to a reasonable search location. I generally trust the exclusions that Dal has listed on this site as I believe Forrest would have spoken up if there were any glaring errors. As for the potential exclusion of a structure being the home of Brown, I think that is probably correct, but even if it is, we cannot be sure what “structure” means to Forrest. So, I urge fellow searchers to be wary about excluding clue solutions that you believe in.

  15. Alsetenash wrote:
    “Ken. I looked around at all I could see on his quotes of ” the treasure is not associated with any structure”
    Yes, Alsetenash, I am aware of the various FF quotes you posted … I posted those exact same quotes, upthread. 🙂

    Here’s one of his quotes you may have missed:

    in a second interview, a woman asked FF this question: “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits?” FF’s response >>> “Yes d, it means the TREASURE is not hidden in or about a structure.”

    How much clearer does FF need to be?

    It’s only the treasure chest that is definitely not associated with any man-made structure. It’s up to the searcher to determine whether any of the nine clues connect to human structures, and if so, which ones.

    This controversy came about because, based on second-hand information from another poster, poster JDA concluded that NONE of the nine clues were associated with a man-made structure. JDA’s message remains where he posted it, upthread.

    And JDA’s conclusion is absurd, on the face of it. Even FF drove a sedan on a man-made road to hide the chest.

    Further, some posters put way too much emphasis on the chest still being searched hundreds or thousands of years from now AS A RATIONALE for not using human structures as clues.

    Did it ever occur to these people that the clues are configured in such a way as to be valid both a thousand years from now … and valid now … complete with roads and other structures man-made?

    So despite JDA’s message way above that none of the 9 clues were associated with human structures, … my conclusion remains the same >>> yes, SOME clues do indeed pertain to human structures. And when those human structures are destroyed 100 hundred years from now, the poem’s clues will STILL be valid.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Of human structure:
      It has been previously agreed and noted on the cheat sheet
      Not in grave yard
      Not in out house…..not associated with a structure
      Not in a mine, tunnel, or cave
      Where warm waters halt is not a dam.

      Now some believe that the Home of Brown is not a structure. Myself included. There is no other portion of the poem that implies a structure IMO. I have not read an argument that would explain why the Home of Brown may be a structure. My only question is whether or not Brown was a person.

      • I disagree Michael…heavy loads and water high for me hold the possibility of both being imaginative references to man made structures. I agree that the box itself is not near/associated with a man made structure, but to me (imo) many clues may…while the physical elements of a structure may be gone in 1000 years, do you really believe all EVIDENCE of that structure will be gone? I will put this out there: while WWWH is not associated with a dam, what if another clue(s) were? I have an ‘all fishing’ solve that incorporates a dam for JHLAWH…and in my state nearly all dams of this scale include ‘multi-use’ design elements. For some possible FF confirmation consider his radar electronics background and the resistor color codes…a resistor falls under a specific electrical concept in relation to the big picture (of a circuit). Ahhh winter, so many WhatIFs

        • I admit that I had previously believed that Heavy Loads and Water High may have been a human structure. On my list were:
          Flumes, such as the hanging flume in Dolores Canyon.
          Earthen dams, such as at Fenton Lake
          Water Towers used by old trains such as the Cumbres Toltec and the Durango Silverton.
          Pulley system that used containers of water as a counter weight. I read about one but haven’t found it.
          I am currently believing that it refers to the remnant of glaciers that left boulders in a creek forming a natural dam. Such as along the Winsor trail above Santa Fe, and a thousand other places. I haven’t been able to work electrical loads into my solves, unless it would be a hydro electric power plant. But I don’t think so.
          I am going to stick to natural features because the essential theme of the Chase to to get out into nature. IMHO

          • How about a tramway as it relates to “no place for the meek”? Look it up regarding wounded English sailors sent to a place to prevent desertion. I had a solve related to an old ore tramway site in Colorado near the town of Placerville. The mine is even called the Omega Mine. I gave up however when I realized how steep and thickly vegetated the old tram line is. Also, the area of the old mine on the high mesa above is a non pristine area with evidence of home site development.

        • Tbug and Michael Hendrickson – See also: Brownout.

          https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Brownout_(electricity)

          Montana PPL, now North Western Energy, control the heavy loads and water high flowing through Hebgen Dam on the Madison River. When the 1959 Hebgen Earthquake happened, I am sure a Brownout was called for in that emergency. Could that office across from the dam be considered hoB then? There is always a conflict between the fly fisherman and the downstream agriculture needs in regards to water flows through that dam.

          • yes hydro-electric. In one state there are lots of them, and a few that share functionality in a symbiotic way that addresses your point Lisa…time to research water law and minimum flows (since I know you love rabbit holes!). My current ‘general’ solve has some plausibility, but the spot I landed at does not…but I assure you water high and heavy loads are right there…with a short walk…wwwh was the weak point and not really a ‘why didn’t I think of that’ element within it.

      • I agree that the hoB is not a structure. My question is: could it be a location where there used to be a structure associated with a person named Brown?

        • That is exactly what i’m hoping for, WC. My confidence level got torpedoed with the thought of no structure for HOB but hey, my HOB as well as many others are “used to be” structures. Now just a placard on the map or a historical sign. Feeling a good bit better again since considering that very real possibility.

          Best of luck with your search!
          Smoky

  16. One more thing:
    “nigh”

    From there it’s no place for the meek,
    The end is ever drawing nigh;
    There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
    Just heavy loads and water high.

    I found an alternative definition for nigh, WASH
    That would go with drawing, because a draw is a wash.
    That would make heavy loads and water high another sort of wash.
    As in a Laundry. Ojo Caliente Spring was a place where FF would wash.
    Just west of there is an old human structure called Queens Laundry.
    The water drains down Sentinel Creek, just a couple hundred feet north of Ojo Caliente Spring.
    There are other connections but I will end my brain storming here.
    https://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/nigh

      • That’s cool info about Queen’s Laundry. You can see the structure on Google Earth. I’ve been down the road before they closed miles of it off, but I had never heard of that hike up to that.

      • Hi Lisa –

        This isn’t the first time someone has mentioned WASH, we had a discussion just last month. These things run in cycles.

        I don’t think about laundry or bath tubs, when I think WASH I think of the bend of the river. Or the riverbend if I’m Fenn

        Lugnutz

        • A “Wash” in the southwest can mean a gully or arroyo – Like a dry creek bed – no paddle up your creek idea – JDA

        • **** Michael Hendrickson wrote – “I found an alternative definition for nigh, WASH
          That would go with drawing, because a draw is a wash.” ****

          I wouldn’t call that an alternate definition of the English word “nigh”, Michael.

          The “nigh = wash” you found is instead a translation of an unrelated word (that happens to be spelled the same) in a completely different language.

          For example, “alone” is an Italian word that means “halo or glow” in English.

          That doesn’t make “halo or glow” an alternate definition of the English word “alone.”

          They have completely different roots and meanings, and just happen to be spelled the same.

          Jake

          • Yes Jake. I believe your point is one that should be heeded. There seems to be certain lines that should not be crossed for success.
            This is another good example why the ATF comments from Fenn are valuable.

        • Lug said—-

          “This isn’t the first time someone has mentioned WASH, we had a discussion just last month. These things run in cycles.”

          They definitely do. And Maytag is still one of the best.

    • Great find, raises meek to a meaning I had discounted, therefore broadening my options. Alas, the end is not nigh, or in the rear.

  17. After pouring over this poem for some time, I think I’m getting close to a solve.

    The nine clues aren’t necessarily in numerical order with the stanzas of the poem. i.e. if you start at the beginning and follow it through to the end you will have gone past the hiding place. IMHO the poem contains the solve, and in fact others have searched near where my solve shows, however they have went right by the area on the way to follow, as if taking steps, although FF tells us directly when to stop earlier in the poem.

    I think that I will hopefully make a trip this next summer and see what I can make of the location. I’ve actually never stepped foot in search of this treasure before, just spent a healthy amount of time reading the poem. First post anywhere also.

    Think, FF said one word is ‘key’ and few are in tight focus with it. That is, “tight focus” is to show a focal shift with respect to the geometric focus.

    Happy chasing folks.

    Cheers,

      • Thanks, regardless of the outcome it will be an adventure! I’ve spent a great deal of time hiking the wilderness in Montana, Idaho, and Wyoming and as if I needed another excuse to go stretch my legs.

      • No, not Montana, although my first instincts to the solve were located in Montana. I think people are trying to bend things to fit the poem, or make a rational reasoning as to why it would be there. Actually Wyoming is where I think the chest is located.
        Boots on the ground may be required to identify the actual solve although a good topo map certainly seems to help. I would highly recommend other searchers to buy topo maps for their search area from the forest service, or another agency/product that shows the level of detail they believe will give them adequate information and detail.

      • My solve has a lot of similarities to yours regarding the use of the poem. I keep it simple and listen to Forrest. I believe wherever found a kid will have just as safe of a chance as me. So I attack reading it like a kid also. Love not having to grow up solving this!!!lol

  18. Does anyone have any thoughts on. Take it. in the canyon down is referring. Take it in the canyon where it comes down now you are going up the canyon

    • I believe that take it in the canyon down doesn’t mean to take a literal drop in elevation. You might actually see both a raise and fall in elevation as it relates to sea level.

  19. I have a question, and i most certainly bow to
    the wisdom of seasoned searchers.
    I have stayed away, in my mind, of queries about the blaze. I am secure from past posts of others and Mr. Fenn, that the Blaze is
    probably something of substance with a
    long lived history. But,… “” look quickly down””.. instead of just look down,
    could this imply that there is also something temporal part of the blaze, as in the right
    time of day for viewing? Does this make any
    sense, or just my typ. batpoop?

    ..

    • I’ve seen a few post here about the sun needing to be at a certain angle but I don’t really buy that myself. IMO you can find it at any time of day as long as you have enough light to see by.

      Let’s entertain the “quickly down” theory though. If you need to get to a certain spot and only have a short time to see what you are looking for is there anything in the poem before that line that what lead us that direction? Is there something that says get to this spot at this time? If so then I could see the need to look quickly.

  20. I personally don’t believe the blaze is some kind of light display or temporary object that only viewed from a certain angel or time of day but a real significant item that will be obvious when found.

  21. I have a Forest Fence boundary in Colorado. It’s on published maps. Maybe a little too clever play on words however.

  22. My solve has a lot of similarities to yours regarding the use of the poem. I keep it simple and listen to Forrest. I believe wherever found a kid will have just as safe of a chance as me. So I attack reading it like a kid also. Love not having to grow up solving this!!!lol

  23. This fence thing is curiously coincidental. That is exactly what I was thinking as I considered crawling under a fence this past summer to examine a ledge. Am I trespassing to set foot on this ground? (but no – this is Public property as in Forest Service) I did eventually slide under the fence against my better instincts, However I spent only a small amount of time (maybe 5 minutes) searching the site. It may not have been enough. Who knows? Anyway, most people encounter fences in their ground search. It is up to them whether to cross the fence or not based on their best instinct and knowledge.

  24. So just to throw a curve ball out into the search community over the holidays – a new thought hit me today which made me go back to the map in a brand new way – (“to my uncertain knowledge” no one in the forums has mentioned this kind of solve)…

    The innuendo above is to a “one important possibility” which Forrest is a “little” surprised nobody has considered.

    In another post he said, “look at the big picture, there are no short cuts.”

    In another post referencing a question requesting he reveal which lines were the clues, he said; I don’t won’t to “broaden” the clues and hints. A synonym for broaden is ENLARGE…

    OK so when I stepped back and looked at the Rocky Mountains as a whole (in their entirety from Canada to Santa Fe, NM) what stands out is the “Great Divide Basin” practically in the middle of the map.

    In the Q&A referencing “the big picture” he prefaces this part with:
    “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe” – Look at the big picture!

    Lastly, in another Q&A – he says, “a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.” Another way to say this is a broad or wide-ranging understanding of the physical features of the earth… Hmmm.

    Viewing the Rockies as a whole and then interpreting the 2nd Stanza from a top down approach, you could then see the Great Divide Basin as The Canyon of the Rockies —- where would that take the search and how does this re-contextualize the 9 clues?

    GCG

    • Forrest Fenn:
      “Your destination is small, but its location is huge” (2-19-2016)

      “Don’t let logic distract you from the poem” (2-12-2016)

      “After reading (Dal’s Blog) I am prompted to ask, have you considered the what ifs?” (3-4-2016)

      • I think the biggest piece of this poem being solved comes from knowledge outside of the poem. I’m pretty sure I’ve found the marvel. Mr. FF, if you’re reading, I’m going to eat an apple and keep working on this.

        Cheers

  25. These I believe are the 9 clues in order from top to down.

    1. wwwh
    2. canyon down
    3. hoB
    4. no place for the meek
    5. up your creek
    6. heavy loads
    7. water high
    8. blaze
    9. in the wood

    These are the hints:

    1. Not far but to far to walk
    2. The end is ever drawing nigh
    3. look quickly down
    4. Your effort will be worth the cold
    5. If you are brave

    Naturally all IMHO 🙂

    • Charlie—–

      Good list. I am being picky here, but #1 should be:
      “Not far, but TOO far to walk”

      There aren’t two “to’s” in the sentence. Just a “to” and a “too” too. Thanks

      • Sparrow,

        Thanks, Instead I should look at the poem and not from memory, it’s showing its age.

    • Charlie,
      fenn said; all the words are deliberate… lacking a word or two from a line doesn’t bother, for my question, but it seems you skipped stanza 5 altogether. And stanza 1, as no help at all… even though fenn stated “And hints of riches new and old”

      Want to fill in the blanks?
      Just curious….

      • Seeker,

        1 is intro, 5 is why which can be found in TTOTC

        “And hints of riches new and old” I interpret there are hints (Clues) as to where TC is. All of the contents are new and old.

        IMO

    • nd here is my slice at the apple:
      Clue #1 Begin it where warm waters halt
      And take it in the canyon down,
      Clue #2
      Not far, but too far to walk.
      Clue #3
      Put in below the home of Brown.
      Clue #4 From there it’s no place for the meek,
      Clue #5
      The end is ever drawing nigh;
      Clue #6
      There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
      Clue #7
      Just heavy loads and water high.
      Clue #8 If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
      Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
      Clue #9
      But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
      Just take the chest and go in peace.

      Hint #1 So why is it that I must go
      And leave my trove for all to seek?
      Hint #2
      The answers I already know,
      I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.
      Hint #3 So hear me all and listen good,
      Your effort will be worth the cold.
      Hint #4
      If you are brave and in the wood
      I give you title to the gold.
      Hint #5 As I have gone alone in there
      And with my treasures bold,
      I can keep my secret where,
      And hint of riches new and old.

      Just a different slice at the apple – JDA

      • I would use “worth the cold” as more of a clue than your #9. I feel like it is something very significant to consider in the search.

        • HaydukeCC;

          “Worth the cold” I consider a hint, because it gets me closer to a clue. – Not closer to the chest. Upon reading the poem for the first 20 or 30 times, this line told me to “Look in the mountains” – where it is colder.

          The final interpretation tells me to look at a particular place in a particular location – look for the “colder” side of this place – the most shaded – “Your effort will be worth looking on the shadier (colder) side of this particular place. It is a “Hint” (to me at least) since it gets me closer to a specific clue, but not closer to the chest in a direct manner.

          Hope this makes sense. I can only say so much without giving too much away. – JDA

          • JDA, makes sense. I have another idea about it, which also falls into the “only say so much without…”
            🙂

          • Good luck to you with your interpretation. All interpretations are valid until it is found – JDA

          • “Now we are in mid-summer, and if we assume that no storms have passed through recently, would you know that the treasure is wet now? ~Thanks, B

            Yes B, physics tells me the treasure is wet.”

            hmmmm?

          • What I know of Dinwoody relates to two things –
            1) A geologic strata called the Dinwoody formation. Lots of fossils
            2) Dinwoody petroglyph found near the town of Dinwoody.
            3) Dinwoody is south of Dubois about 1/2 way from Dubois to where 26 and 287 split (Had to look it up)

            That’s about all I know – sorry

            Why do you ask? – JDA

          • I found a curious old paper about it. It provides information that piqued my interest as I imagine Forrest Fenn taking the old highway to Yellowstone back in the 40’s. Then I noticed the Dinwoody and looked up the word.
            What popped up was this: http://penelope.uchicago.edu/Thayer/E/Journals/AmAntiq/15/3/The_Petroglyphs_of_Dinwoody_Wyoming*.html
            As I read this report I thought of how many of these petroglyphs can only be seen from certain angles. The report above seems to describe a place that might have been secret and important to him. I’m still working on it but I have an area between that, and other sights all the way down to Lander. I’m pretty convince that area would be a special place for a young man discovering himself and Wyoming. This place still may have a ton of artifacts and information that would be right up Fenn’s alley. And the idea of finding blazes in petriglyph- art that will stand for centuries just seem so Fennish to me. Could be wrong. Probably am….but it’s interesting and I didn’t even know about it yesterday. I figure you are all over the hiding place and it’s just a matter of time. Good luck

          • Very interesting article – Thanks for sharing it with us. Yes, it sounds like the kind of place that would interest Forrest as a young man, and in later in life as well. This kind of find matches some of the things I have found as well.

            Thanks for you vote of confidence. JDA

          • I’ve taken a break and hit the reset button for the winter and keep my head in a place that might look like the mid forties and what FF may have been seeing for the first time going to Yellowstone. As I read the poem I try to see the water and canyons as he might have seen them. When I found the petriglyphs I really wanted to find one that looked like a celestial body with a dove sitting on it. Haven’t found that yet but did find the owls…lots of them. They all seem to stand the test of time with many clever ledges available to hold an invisible bronze box. Follow the direction of the ancients. Could be

          • I am so happy that you are pursuing the Dinwoody solve. It has long stuck in the back of my head like a raspberry seed in my wisdom tooth.
            Thanks for the link, it really fills in some important details.

      • In what state the TC lies in its environs is of great interest to me. Any of the hints or clues apply?

        • FlyFishin;

          We all have our own ideas. For me, the words “In the wood” tell me that it is in Wyoming. Why? – there is a particular definition (not easily found) of “the wood” that leads the searcher to a specific geographical area within Wyoming – Others will not agree. JDA

          • whoaaaaa, I think I just might have found what you mean, JDA. I have never been over in that place, but crazy how 2 separate words popped out at me on GE.

          • I like WY too, JDA
            I guess what I’m wondering is how the TC sits in its location. Most likely, not readily observable by a passerby. Maybe, placed in a natural formation, with room to jump in if the opportunity arose. Nothing extreme but doable.

          • FlyFishin;

            Don’t we all wonder that. Solving the riddles within the poem is not a week-end project. It takes a lot of work, research, imagination and perseverance.

            Read the cheat-sheet and the Fundamental Guidelines at the top of every thread.

            This quote has been my guiding light for a bit over two years now:
            Forrest once said, “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f

            Good luck, and happy hunting – JDA

  26. I recently learned that to be “in the wood” is a pretty common term in competitive darts. It means the bullseye, which is made from wood in contrast to the rest thats horsehair or the likes. Also a term for a cask/barrel of liquor. To be “in the wood” is to be still aging, or stored until ready to be retrieved. Random but fun thoughts to ponder.

    • “In the wood” can also mean in the saddle, like in-between two hills or the shape of a saddle which is more in tune with the area of the blaze. IMO

    • Nice post, Jonsey. The bull’s eye reference, IMO, would explain the first half of the ninth clue in my solve. My “brave and in the wood” point on GE has a few lines crossing and looks a bit like a target.

      Ron.

  27. Pdenver, glad you enjoyed the article. There are more to see but I just googled a 1940 map of Wyoming and went the usual route of the day to Yellowstone. Trying to be a Fenn in my mind, things get very interesting once get to Lander and keep moving up 26. Dubose, Dunior and Crowheart are in the area I like but when I saw Dinwoody and it’s petriglyphs. I don’t have it all together yet but this area is off radar and just looks like it might be special to Forrest/ With Parkinson’s I doubt I am a threat to anyone and have only done one BOTG, and that was in Montana. Many reasons for Dinwoody, weatherwise and otherwise seem to call me in. All the best. Everything I write is my own senior moment opinion.

      • Bob, I hope my response will show up for you. In the meantime, I wish you all the best and hope to learn you’ve done another BOTG.

    • Bob—-

      I think you have the right area. I checked out Dinwoody right after I found out about the Chase a year ago. I have stuck with Wyoming ever since, though I moved away from Dinwoody shortly thereafter and have focused on another area since then. That 1940 map is a great idea though. Good thinking!

    • Bob – I too looked at old Wyoming state issued highway maps (the kind you find at a rest stop)…hwy 26 was not paved until the mid 1940s…IMO, I believe the Fenns (the family, all in one car), would have been more likely to go through Casper, Shoshone, Thermopolis, Meteetsee, Cody and then to W Yellowstone. Thermopolis was marketed as ‘The Gateway to Yellowstone’ throughout the 30s-60s. I agree that hwy 26 is a viable route, but what would it have looked like back then? IMO, there were but a few ‘worthy’ places to stop on that route, plus over a mtn pass (togwotee), add in mountain weather and I think it just makes more sense going through Cody…all IMO…I too have had a strong pull to the Lander area, but more about the mountains to the west…there is sooo much water. Also, those interested in archeology/native American links to the chase, should look up the ‘high rise village’ near Lander, very interesting info. Good luck all.

  28. I’ve said in the past that I thought there were 11 clues in the poem.

    With a hint or a clue, since both, in some ways, can be both a hint and a clue, I probably will teeter on this definition for quite a while, but we do have some resolve on the actual number of clues.

    From Dal’s blog – “Forrest gets Questions from Middle School Students”…

    Our final guess is that the treasure may be along road 156 in Wyoming. Thank you for taking time out of your day to help us in our class!

    f. “You cannot solve the problem by starting in the middle of the poem. You should start with the first clue and then solve the other eight in order.”

    Nine clues.

    So community….of you have more….those extras are now hints.

    I hope this helps.

    Best of luck.

    • Tim….that answer from Fenn to the students is one that makes me pause as I look through the poem and read it over and over. On the one hand it makes me think carefully about the poem structure( 6 four line stanzas) with the middle at JHLAWH and IYBWAFTB. I then look at the wording and see that the poem is reading…found the blaze. When I think about the students’ question and Fenn’s answer…it appears he is saying that the end(hidey space) is in the “middle” of the poem…and that in order to get there(the hidey) they have to first figure out the “previous clues”…eight of them…in order.
      At this juncture…the other hand…the question remains. Are the other eight clues(in order) as read, prior to the “middle” of the poem….OR as some believe…the poem must be “maneuvered” and deciphered out of it’s “structured” sequence ? Goodness gracious…that hurts my head…again!

      • ken,
        You’re looking at the poems as having a middle because of it’s outline of 6 stanzas, right?

        WhatIF the poem’s middle for a solution is different to the outline [ structure] of the poem. LOL, I mean, fenn said don’t discount any words… if the end of the solve is at or near stanza 4 … what a waste of time and space… right?

        Clues are clues, hints are hints, information is just that… a solve might look different… We are told to follow the “deciphered” clues, but that doesn’t say the solution ends in the middle of the poems structure / design.

        For example; The poem has all the information, so we have been told. So, wwwh is the first clue… does that mean HLaWH is a clue or a reference to wwwh? Is hoB a clue or simply a location of all the clues? Could, in the wood, be hoB? and if so… which is a clue, or hint, and how does it effect the order of the clues -?- to what we hope are clues.

        We’re only guessing that the order starts with wwwh and end in stanza 4.
        Logical, but not written in stone. I mean… why is there a question that has answers in the poem… yet many ignore is as useless for a clue or a hint, and call it a filler.

        Personally [and I can’t stand poems for this reason] to decipher a poem, it doesn’t act like, deciphering clues in a story line or setting… ‘A’ clue reference/solved could be [for example] 4 clues in one stanza referring to a single answer and/or location to those deciphered ‘clues’…Which could mean… less physical places to stomp out, and more thinking about how a clue works.

        Just food for thought…

        • Yes Seeker…We have all theorized on everything you mentioned…and have come up with all sorts of theoretical avenues on how to approach the break down. What you say here is not beyond my ability to comprehend…and my comment is simple.
          Fenn’s ability to truthfully answer questions seems to follow a fairly straight pattern. I’ve mentioned many times that his “early” answers seem really basic and “straight forward”…whereas his later statements seem “loaded” and well thought out…with some pretty good “twists” added. You’ve even mentioned many times how his comments seem to be offered in a way that fosters further “thinking”.
          * My thinking on his afore mentioned answer to students is pretty “logical”… and totally not based on anything I “need” to make my ideas move forward. With this in mind…one could very easily see this as possible…AND…move forward without excluding ANY part of the poem. The poem needs to be read as a whole to understand it…yes/no? Read it over and over…and it becomes more clear(hopefully) as more things are understood…yes/no?
          * Straight forward * factor is not compromised at all by understanding what is offered in the poem without rearranging anything…and “I think” that is what messes everyone as they try to force a solve.
          And! I freakin’ have some poems that I never did even begin to fathom from years ago! I’ve always thought that some poets(maybe more than some) just couldn’t write a good story…so they wrote poetry to mess with folks! HA !

      • It seems like it all comes back to solving WWWH. Then, HoB.
        Does looking at the poem backwards, upside down or inside out solve that?
        IMO, Either one becomes convicted they ‘see’ where FF wants them to be, or we grasp at straws.

        (no disrespect intended)

        • Forrest once said, “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times –STUDY EVERY LINE, EVERY WORD. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f

          “Does looking at the poem backwards, upside down or inside out solve that?” Not for me, but looking INSIDE (look up almost every word) is the key for me – JDA

          • JDA, likewise.
            And, FTR, I’m still grasping at straws…
            But I look forward to exploring places on my next trips around Yellowstone in the Spring.

      • Hi Ken.

        All I implied was that there are nine clues before one finds the trove.

        The students phrases the question by giving them “their final location.”

        With understanding the answrr FF gave – while keeping the question in mind – we can extrapolate the starting point to be clue #1 and the “example location” as if it was the TC final location.

        We don’t count the TC location as a clue or a hint, so that would indicate that there are nine clues prior to the physical location of the trove.

        If the first clue is BIWWWH, then there are only eight clues needed from that point on order to find the chest.

        Now is the time to devise an attack on what are the nine clues to use.

        Begin it where warm waters halt……

        That was all I implied…you can or cannot read more into what I said, but that would be your choice.

        Good luck.

        • BTW,

          I need some help finding something in the vast body of the Fenn Quotes.

          The one in question refers to his direct answer to a searcher who believed they had found his treasure on an island in a lake…

          Forrest answers him very specifically; asking the searcher exact questions relative to his supposed solve.

          The questions he asked were like:
          Does your solve have a creek?
          Where is your waters high?
          Do you have a home of Brown…

          Or something like this. I’ve been trying to locate it so we could post it on the 9 clues thread since Forrest exact questions referring to specific things in the searchers solve seems to suggest that they are the lines which contain clues!!!

          GCG

          • GCG—

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ieqFmUvuldc

            I think this is what you may be looking for—unfortunately the person actually believes the hunt is not real based on the timing of his letter. You can investigate further. He believed the treasure was on an island and that a helicopter was used to take the treasure there.

          • GCG…this is interesting because of the questions asked by Fenn in the YouTube presentation….but because it has not been acknowledged or presented by a “reliable” source…I would not bet the farm on any of it.
            That’s my take…

        • Tim…rest easy! My comment has NOTHING to do with you or your solve…or the comment you offered that included the Fenn quote. I merely made a comment on that particular Fenn interaction with students….period. Carry on…

          • No worries Ken….I’m easy…..

            I jus don’t want others to think I implied something I didn’t….as it has occurred in the past.

            Just clarifying I guess.

            Cheers and good luck to you.

      • Ken,

        9 definitive clues
        3 Instructions
        3 hints

        However the circular nature of the poem is that the clues are recycled (so to speak) in order to find the final hidey spot…

        I’m just not positive about where my lines are crossing … … Just Yet!

        GCG

  29. Sparrow to the rescue!

    Thanks — Yes, that is the one I was looking for…

    And Ken – yes its very reputable but the Fenn reply seems to ring true.
    It sounds like questions Forrest might ask a confused searcher especially one that thinks the hunt is a fraud…

    And IF this is an actual response from Forrest then this highly suggest that we can say:

    Clue #1: Where warm waters halt
    Clue #2: Take it in the canyon down

    Its curious that Forrest doesn’t ask him how the island is, too far to walk but does ask if an 80 year old guy could make 2 trips from his car in one afternoon? Which does sound a lot like Not far, but too far to walk…

    Clue #3 or #4: Put in below Home of Brown

    Clue #5 or #6 maybe?: There’ll be no paddle up your creek,

    Some food for thought here.

    Now if we assume that at a minimum the first 6 clues are in Stanzas 2 & 3; then what are the remaining three clues IF, they all reside in Stanza #4???

    #7: If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
    #8: Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
    #9: But tarry scant with marvel gaze,

    Does this seem about right?

    GCG

    • GCG – Others may not agree, but this works for me:
      Clue #1 – Begin it where warm waters halt
      And take it in the canyon down,
      Clue #2 – Not far, but too far to walk.
      Clue #3 – Put in below the home of Brown. Clue #4 – From there it’s no place for the meek,
      Clue #5 – The end is ever drawing nigh;
      Clue #6 – There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
      Clue #7 – Just heavy loads and water high. Clue #8 – If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
      Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
      Clue #9 – But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
      Just take the chest and go in peace.

      Good luck in figuring it out – JDA

      • JDA
        Not to be critical but isn’t there a video interview where someone reads the Stanzas and then Forrest says looks like a few clues to #2
        And then a “couple” clues in #3???

        GCG

    • GCG…none of that whole scenario from the youtube scenario will influence me in ANY way…period. That is unless Fenn comes out and confirms it. To me…it never happened.

      • Ya Ken my butter fingers miss typed my previous response – that YouTube is highly UNreputable .

        I essentially break the poem down into 3 clues in each of the Stanzas 2,3, & 4
        Reinterpreting the second stanza’s clues to yield a 4th Clue later in the poem.
        That’s why it has 3 or 4 clues…

        In The 3rd Stanza you have to resolve the use of the semicolon.

        “The semicolon [ ; ] is a powerful mark of punctuation with three uses. … A semicolon can also team up with a transition—often a conjunctive adverb—to connect two sentences close in meaning. The pattern looks like this: Complete Sentence + ; + Transition + , + Complete Sentence.“

        • GCG…I have brought the semicolon to attention before…but no takers. I believe it is there for a significant reason. I am still on the fence “which way to go” there. I have a couple of guesses…and either seems viable.
          I am waiting on some further info from a good resource that may prove…or disprove what I am thinking. Making sure my “nouns” are in order first. Have a good one.

    • Hi GCG…you are still missing two clues.

      4 or 5….&…..6 or 7.

      See….a team effort can work together.

      :o)

  30. Not sure what happened to my last
    Comment, whatever.

    I reran the poem on a whim, I don’t think that clues will be particularly useful until you have figured out the key word, and then unlocked where that takes you. Let’s face it, the name Brown is possibly one of the most common names, and also used extensively across all areas.

    WWWH, I think that might be a euphemism for something other than literal warm water.

    Going down a canyon can occur just about anywhere in the mountains.

    End is ever drawing nigh, could be a plethora of things.

    And just maybe the Poem is about Fenn’s greatest treasure. His family. Child birth etc. Think about it…

    Cheers and happy hunting folks.

    • I agree. At least for me my greatest treasures are my memories growing up as a child and those I’ve made with my family. If I pretend for a moment that I am Forest I would want to hide it in a place that would remind me of those treasures. The million dollar question being how would he do that?! Maybe one day someone will answer that question.

  31. Why 9 clues? There are 9 players on a baseball team. 9 ball is a game played in billiards. There are 9 fingers on my hands (I used to run a band saw). There has got to be a reason for 9— what is it?

  32. No, actually I ran the band saw when I was in my 30’s. I switched to the band saw after losing a big toe at my lawn mowing job. Oh, or do you mean 9 refers to Forrest’s age? You know, he mentions the age 13 a lot— do you think that is a hint to check out a 1943 map maybe? Oh well. Who knows?

  33. Mr. Fenn tells us that the nine clues, must be followed precisely. How can such vague clues, be followed precisely? Does that tell us anything about the nature of the clues?

    • James,

      Yes, the clues are vague, they become clearer after wwwh. If you have the right wwh, then you should be able to find the vague clues. If the clues were clear, then you could go right to it and it would have been solved quite some time ago. 🙂 IMO

      • Hi Charlie, Searchers have been at the hiding place, 200 feet and 500 feet from the chest. And had no idea that they were at the hiding place. Don’t you think that one of those clues that get easier as you go along, would have tipped them off? They were looking for the chest. I think there has to be something more to it. JMO

        • James;

          To me, it is all in the details. Let’s say that you interpret “Heavy loads and water high” as being some “Big Rocks” (Heavy loads) that water flows over (Water high) {A waterfall} You look EVERYWHERE around your waterfall, and alas, no treasure.

          What if there is a small stream that flows into your BIG creek and waterfall, not too far away. Suppose that next to this small stream, there is a big Boulder (Heavy loads), next to the little stream (Water high) and next to this little stream is a “Hidey Hole” that contains Indulgence. It was there for you to find (with the clues) – you were within 200′ or 500′, and yet did not find it because of your incorrect interpretation of “Heavy loads and water high”.

          For me, that is how you could be in the area, and diligently searched, but did not find it. JDA

          • Hi JDA, The question is, How is the word precisely, applied to the clues. Does the word precisely, tell us anything about the clues? Just thinking out loud.

          • James;

            Forrest has said: “Questions posted 6/13/2014:

            “Forrest,
            You talk about how you worked on, and changed, the poem for many years. As you read it today, are you still completely content with the belief that someone will eventually understand and follow your poem PRECISELY to the treasure?” ~ John

            Thanks John,
            I think your question is wrought from misinformation. I have no real feelings about when the treasure might or might not be found. But eventually sounds too far away. The treasure is there for the person who can find it and I think that person will be positive in their attitude and deliberate in their actions. No one has any secret information that will take them to the hiding place. IT’S IN THE POEM FOR ALL TO SEE.” f

            Believe it or not, “Heavy loads and water high” are the most valuable words in the poem. If you can figure out that these five little words mean, you will be well on your way to figuring out PRECISELY where Indulgence is secreted. JMO – JDA

          • The location of the chest is static, it never changes no matter how anyone reads or interprets the poem and clues. From the perspective of the person(FF) that knows where they placed it, it is precisely where the clues lead from what he intended.

          • HaydukeCC.

            {in Part} ~ “…The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f

            While it’s possible that the spot the chest lays in wait might be static… will movement of clues throw of the preciseness of those clues to get us to a 10” sq piece of land.

            I mean, if all this is, is to look at a location wwh- look at a canyon down- look at hoB etc etc. What is so precise about seeing the land and feature -?- that would have an affect in a thousand years or maybe even in a hundred years.
            IF wwwh is a lake and a change in the up lift of land happens [ under normal conditions ] and the lake shore moves a foot or two … is that such a big deal -?- if all we need to do at the lake is look for a canyon?

            I personally think when fenn used the word “precisely” It is meant as exact. One clue gets knock off kilter the other clues may not work very well, or as well as it does at this moment in time.

          • I’ll add; fenn stated he followed the clues when he hid the chest… using the words before the poem was “complete (completed)… this might not be a popular thought, because many seemingly like to view nature through a tinted glass, AC, leather seat, w/9 cup holder, vehicle … But did fenn need to “complete” the task [finish the poem] of hiding the chest by following the clues that can be so exact… he needed to wait for “summer” to hide it?

          • Seeker,

            “when fenn used the word “precisely” It is meant as exact. One clue gets knock off kilter the other clues may not work very well”

            ummm, I thought that was sorta what I was trying to say.

            😉

  34. Seeker—-

    The year mentioned in your quote above is a hint. I’ve noticed FF disperses hints in very unusual ways. He is a spy Fox. Lol.

  35. The word “precisely” has been bandied about as if the poem, which is
    relatively short, will define a location that can fit within a square having
    sides of 10.5 inches in length.

    I have never believed this much precision has been achieved in the
    poem. But I do believe that if the poem is thoroughly and “precisely”
    understood/solved, it can lead a searcher to a place within “a few steps”
    (whatever that means . . . I’ll estimate about 240 horizontal inches) of where the TC is. Some careful eyeballing may be helpful to a BOTG
    searcher who is within about 240 horizontal inches of the TC. Some
    searching will be required for success. And this probably wouldn’t work very well (eyeballing, that is) during winter, when much or most of the local area is snow-covered. I’m still trying to determine why FF seems to
    think that one’s gaze will be “marvel” about the time one finds the chest. But it may not matter too much, even if the word “marvel” is ignored.
    I wonder whether the “kaleidoscope” principle applies here . . . all IMO.

    • It’s ironic that you don’t believe the poem is precise given your forum name?

      But I agree with you fundamentally.
      15 foot radius or 30’ circle

      Is what I get from the clues.

      GCG

  36. Hi All, Thanks for the thoughts on “precisely”. We know the clues have to be followed in the order they appear, so I guess “precisely” was just the word smith, being wordy.

  37. Here’s My Take…

    1) Starting Point (on a map, not the ground) – where warm waters halt
    – This is a flowing body of water
    – He is using fishing terminology (something he is very well versed in)

    2) Follow this “path” downstream (on the map, not literally)

    3) The distance you’re drawing should be “an awfully long walk” for an 80(ish) year old guy
    – I consider this to be 2-5 miles
    – I wouldn’t think this is too long, but I am 27 – so think relative to Fenn

    4) At that distance (TFTW) downstream you should be able to associate the area to a “home of Brown” and you should “put in” (BOTG – Finally!).
    – More fishing terminology
    – Water temperature probably averages about 60° (worth the cold)

    5) From where you’re now at (BTHOB) the journey gets more difficult/takes a little courage.
    – Meek – “timid”
    – Could be a sneaky way of saying no place for “Indulgence”… but that is loose. Meek comes from “Meoc” (middle english) – courteous or indulgent. But I don’t submit to that.

    6) There is a pronounced symbol made from the river path that is “ever drawing nigh” – river is always drawing closer

    7) You need to head up stream and shouldn’t be in a vessel
    – He wants you in the water like a fly fisherman
    – He has traversed countless miles this way
    – Probably important to your ability to see the blaze
    – “no paddle”

    8) You’re looking for a spot in the river where you’d encounter “heavy loads” and “high water”
    – A pronounced “V” shape in the river or a hard bend
    – The bottom of that “V” will be where the water deepens – this is how things naturally form because of the forces generated by the water following that path. The outer water will be moving quicker digging out the bottom and coming through the bend more rapidly
    – The top of that “V” will be where the heavy loads collect – this is also how rivers naturally behave as the water here is more shallow and moving slower. Oddly enough this creates a secondary HOB because that is the exact type of place Brown (or any) trout would hide out. They are lazy fish so barriers and slower water a great for them

    9) The blaze… ahh the blaze. It is now easily visible to you and below it is the end of your quest
    – The blaze will tell you that you need to enter the deep part of this “V” (based on where you’ll see it)
    – You’ve already seen this symbol
    – The chest is close to the bank and wet, but also difficult to see without a keen eye
    – You’re not exactly supposed to be where you’re at (must not be meek) so quietly retrieve what you’ve come for and leave
    – In the event legalities do arise… I give you title to the gold.

      • Fisin’,

        Thanks!

        I think that he’s using terms associated to a favorite hobby – trout fishing. If you look at maps generated and maintained by the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish – Warm Waters are all lakes rivers and streams that ARE NOT designated as “Trout Waters”. So find a river where you can apply this logic to find a stopping point (Wwwh) then head down stream a long walks distance and locate a home of Brown. I found a spot that lines up with this. No BOTG yet but I lined up the rest pretty darn well and it’s worth the cost of a flight! Won’t be until mid-late spring.

        If I told you the exact spot you’d probably laugh because it is THAT unassuming. But I think too man people are looking in places that immediately seem special. Ruins or popular cliffs and I don’t think that’s necessarily true. I picked a random few people at work and asked them this question: where I’d a special, dear place for you. I told them to answer instinctively rather than think about it. Most of the answers were places or things you and I would blow right past! So given that the clues as I read them lines up… I’m finally going lol

        • Don,

          I’ve had those same thoughts about WWWH referring to warm water fisheries. But I am not willing to travel down there to pursue it.
          I also see “heavy loads” as a fly-fishing term, loading the rod with a large fly.
          The stonefly hatch on the Madison comes to mind with “heavy loads and water high”.

          Good luck!

      • Thanks mate!

        I have, however, recently pulled away from this literal of a theory as it is (even my deeper interpretation than what was shared) a bit too vague still. I found some very interesting comments that have me “moving through the words with confidence” and in a significantly different way.
        Cheers!

  38. Happy New Year, searchers!
    Can anyone tell me the source of the following quote: “The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.” (This appears to refer to clues, to stay on topic.)
    (Also, please let me know if my version is accurate. I’ve tried but can’t seem to locate the original.) Thanks!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  39. Count me in with those that had their wonderful solve bashed by the release of the New Zealand radio interview. Previously I had always thought there was not much for us in the first stanza, then just recently, the skies opened up and a new solve revealed itself to me that relied heavily on the first four lines pointing to the starting place before WWWH. All other clues matched also and I was planning a search in the spring. Now with that radio interview being shared publicly, Im turned on my head again. Does everyone take that radio interview as gospel now, with no question?

    • Hi Ken….bummer to hear of your bust……okay….you are past that now.

      Breathe…….slowly.

      Okay….start again.

      Don’t dismiss your clues just yet….because….you never know….what you have found, may still be able to fit into another location….maybe one, maybe two, maybe all nine clues….who really knows, until you start applying what you have and know about FF.

      Your previous general solve……did have facts you can connect to FF, right?

      Anyhow…..he is the one who hid the chest…he is the one you need to “follow”. Be Forrest…….be the chest….be the path he took…be him in his car….be him walking/hiking……be him in anyway you can.

      YOU CAN DO IT!!!! Seriously….in order for any of us to unlock this mystery…..we really need to think like the maker.

      He has said he will tell us how to do. I’m now starting to believe this wholly.

      It is in these interviews that you will HEAR him speak about many things…..but the key to me is trying to understand what he is saying. Maybe the instructions are there?

      Think for a moment. You want a promotion. How do you go about and get a promotion. You play by the set rules first – and then you adjust yourself to play by those rules for the future – and then you (well I hope to) “impress the boss”….so you can get that promotion.

      BUT…..did you think like the boss? Did you learn his “book”….his motivational aspects. You do want that promotion, right? So you try your best to get it….using many tools I would imagine.

      We know the list is plenty with FF…..and I think Dal and others can agree to that too. Anyhow.

      If you see the point I am trying to make – we need to figure out FF before you can figure out the poem. Reverse engineer FF? – HA!! Impossble you say?

      I don’t think so…..his iwritten and verbal nterviews can help dissect FF. His past weekly questions that other sites host – are helpful to dissect FF.

      We have our ways of getting to the truth!!! :o)

      TRUST NO ONE!!

      MWUHAHAHA!!

      :o)
      Good luck to us!

  40. My 9 clues:

    1- BIWWWH
    2- TIITCD
    3- NFBTFTW
    4- PIBTHOB
    5- FHINPFTM & TEIEDN
    6- TBNPUYC & JHLAWH
    7- IYBWAFTB
    8- LQD,YETC
    9- BTSWMG

    GCG

    • Hi GCG,
      What about the second half of the poem?
      If the poem was that simple Dal or DG would enjoy the spoils of the chase by now. Sorry, imo your list is less than 30% accurate.

      • LIG,

        I hope this answer doesn’t duplicate but my previous response doesn’t appear to be here…

        The poem structure and it’s clues and their subsequent interpretation aren’t simple.

        The basic structure is:
        Stanza #1: Proclamation or Heralding the Teasure
        2,3 & 4: Puzzle or Clues to the Treasure
        5: Purpose or Motive for hiding the Treasure
        6: Promise or Affirmation of the Treasure

        With I believe;1,5 & 6 providing one strong hint each. Although admittedly the 5th Stanzas hint evades me nonetheless only the clues are necessary.

        So what 30% am I missing?

        GCG

        • Hi GCG,
          Thanks for the explanation.

          Well, it’s just my opinion but I see it in diametrically different light. In my opinion every stanza contains information required to solve the 9 clues. I’m still concidering possibility that even the last line might contain information pertaining to clue 9. Also, in my opinion clue 9 is the hardest after clue 1.
          I guess time will tell who is right. Good luck to you.

          • LIG,

            Its difficult for me to say, if Clue #9 is the second most difficult (I don’t have #9 nailed down in my solve yet, only ideas) but Forrest seems to think the puzzle gets progressively easier…

            Forrest said he felt like and “architect drawing” this poem – this implies an architecture and I believe once a searcher understands the specific architecture, then the interpretations of the clues come easier.

            GCG

  41. However clue #7 is super tricky if you haven’t figured out what the blaze is figuratively…

    Otherwise the clues kind of get easier as you go – if you’ve been wise…

    GCG

    • GCG,
      Your 9 clues are similar, if not the same as mine.

      A figurative blaze, though? Are you talking about a campfire that no longer exists?
      TimM

      • No Tim!

        Haha there is no campfire.

        The poem had two distinct levels:
        1) is the literal path or route the searcher/hunter is to take
        2) are the clues

        So the way I see it the Blaze is both a physical thing at the treasure site and it is what the clues are trying to tell us…

        GCG

        • GCG,

          I’m intrigued by your posts. I think that you have hit some points right on the head. Very thought provoking.

          I appreciate your reply.

          TimM

        • GCG, I always believed about the ‘literal’ and figurative sides of the blaze. Since ff comment about it being a physical object many stopped chatting about it.

          It is best describe as -in a word, yes.-

          • Oz10:

            The key in that particular answer is the question:

            “Is the Blaze one single object? ~ Scout Around”
            Synonyms for object:
            objective, aim, goal, target, purpose, end, plan; ambition, design, intent, intention, point, idea

            “In a word, Yes!”

            GCG

    • GCG,
      Just wondering how or why you think; If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, is a clue in itself?
      Sure, we need to find ‘the blaze’ but we need to find the chest too. But the line says ‘found’ it [ the blaze ].

      Can you break down your thought process?

      I’m wondering because, if you think the blaze is the location of the chest [ a marker for the chest ]… it’s not so much a “clue” as it is the final destination.
      Fenn stated; “I mean, there’s people driving down the street looking for a blaze, because that’s one of the clues, but you can’t start in the middle of the poem and find the treasure, I don’t think, I mean, it would be a miracle if someone did.”

      This comment has made me wonder, if ~”because that’s one of the clues” was meant literally, or people think its a “clue”? because they are looking for it before the other clue.
      I can read it both ways… but only one way tells us there is more to do. So, If the blaze marks the exact location of the chest… The rest of stanza 4 is basically useless. Well other than the obvious. look down… I guess it could have been look up if the chest wasn’t below the blaze, but it would still put a stop about worrying what tarry scant might means… making that line a non-clue or even a hint.

      • Seeker,

        Read my answer to TimM

        Perhaps that will help.

        Each of these 3 Stanzas starts with a logic directive:

        -Begin it
        -From there it’s
        -If you’ve been

        These are all prompts to the Stanza’s Purpose.

        Does that help?

        GCG

        • I’m reaching here …. What is the difference as you see it between a hint and a clue? As you say, those three stanzas start with the logic directives as almost the physical direction in the real world to the TC, and weve been told by FF that the first “clue” is BIWWWH. If, by chance, the first stanza hinted to the area or general location you should be in before starting the physical path of the first “clue” BIWWWH, would the first stanza be considered a hint or a clue?

          • To each their own, but I am not seeing why people spend energy and attention on whether something should be called either a clue or a hint.

          • hi Hayduke.

            IMO – and just use it s such….there is a big difference.

            A hint will lead you to a clue…..a clue will lead you to the treasure.

            this is rule #1 for me.

            #2 goes something like – if the hint only leads to another hin, then it is not a clue. If the hint leads to a clue, it is a hint and then you can work on your clue.

            #3 – clues are direct instructions – whether that be a place, location, object, etc…..things that would be involved with what the path to the treasure intends.

            If you can keep yourself from moving out of these three guidelines, I think you may be able to figure out what is what. Be studious……truly…I have….it seems to pay off…..rabbit holes and all……it just takes time and thinking.

            Be the chest! :o)

            Good luck in the hunt, my brother in arms!

            :o)

      • Seeker,

        I wanted to address something in your last post more specifically.

        Your comments regarding the “rest of stanza is basically useless.”

        This is definitely not true in my interpretation of the clues/poem. Forrest has said that if you understood the geographical location for each of the clues then you could find the treasure or something like this…

        The 4th stanza (except take the chest and go) is the last geographical piece and it is both literal and figurative. And what I’ve discovered in my interpretation of the poem each stanza has one or two lines out of the four which are more one way than the other.

        What I mean by this is; the poem is providing 2 things simultaneously:
        1) a literal path for the searcher to follow physically in the real world.
        AND
        2) Clues to the starting place, route and final precise location of the treasure.

        And these are closely intertwined but some lines are more geared to the physical path and other lines are more geared to the clues.

        Stanza #4 I believe is two and two. With the first 2 lines being Clue oriented and the last 2 lines being real world actions to be taken.

        So in this explanation you can see why I use the word “intertwined” because if the versus, “But tarry scant with marvel gaze,” refers to actions needed to be taken at or near the treasure chest hiding spot, then its still sort of cloaked in poetic license…

        Literally stated this line seems to mean:

        But take a bit to look intently around for the treasure.

        The question then is what am I looking for exactly – what is the interpretive Clue telling me I’m looking for?

        Hopefully this answers your question better…

        GCG

        • One last note on “But tarry scant” as the 9th clue… I can’t believe Forrest intends us to “Tarry Point.” As compared to a Steiner Point.. I’ve heard some discussions on this and feel it definitely fall into “specialized knowledge” which is outside the bounds of imagination and resourcefulness that Forrest expects of the person of average intelligence and I see nothing in his writings or comments anywhere that would support this interpretation.

          If someone has a reference, even a loose one, I’m all ears.

          GCG

          • Hi GCG.

            “Steiner point”

            How is this not specialized knowledge as well?

            Geometry – as a whole requires specialized learning to undersand.

            If you go deeper in that thinking, I can see how something like this could be used in the construction of the poem, but to unlock it……???….I doubt it.

            IMO – Geometry may/could be applied…..but FF said he was like an architect, thus, he built upon something….was Geometry included…maybe….why?….because….you may not be aware that Steiner Point, is similar to Tarry Point, but could it actually be part of an even more larger build?….yep…..that is what I just said.

            Combinatorics. Analytical, math, crypto, desgin, order, and many other components.

            If this type of design format, structure, or level of thinking was applied, I can see why this puzzle is so hard and difficult….and could take many years to figure out…..may never be.

            Many will not be able to utilize many of these processes, although some seem to be pretty simple to comprehend.

            *shrugs*

            Hmmm….something to ponder upon.

            Thanks for making me think deeper.

        • Interesting….

          “Intertwined” could be the meaning of the barb wire in that digital picture I just mentioned on the “TS” thread.

          I’ve always wondered what all those meanings were, and to be honest, I think that was one of only two things I couldn’t figure out in it.

          The other….the floating fedora….I have a few ideas, but always wondered why it was floating.

          “Hog heaven for the finder” maybe…throwing your hat up in the air?….some others too….but never have figured it out.

          Maybe I’ll ask Dal to reveal those secrets…..*nudges him lightly*…..Yes?…

          That picture I do believe holds many of the nine clues in a visual sense.

          “Meek”
          The location envirronment clues
          Of course FF expressing his involvement

          Just thoughts I have had over the years.

          Great! Thanks!

        • GCG, you make good points about the poem providing clues, and routes or paths. I am assuming you mean the same thing when you say routes and paths.

          As far as what you said “Stanza #4 I believe is two and two. With the first 2 lines being Clue oriented and the last 2 lines being real world actions to be taken.” I have to question a little. I am trying to figure this out myself to hence the questioning. It seems that some lines may not be either a location or a direction but both at once. For example TBNPUYC. This may elude to both a location and the path or way to traverse. Or maybe not?

          I’d love to hear other opinions on whether they think the clues can represent a location, a path, or both in one clue? To me some are obvious but not all. Is no place for the meek a direction or specific spot?

          One reason for answering path or spot for each clue is to plot these on a map. If FF felt like an architect then perhaps an architectural like drawing on the map is needed.

        • Yes, GCG
          I can see what you describe as paths and clues but wonder if path and clue can be together in one line as well.
          “Take the chest and go in peace.”
          Perhaps the chest is located in a geological configuration that appears as a symbol of peace, such as a dove.
          Just a thought.
          And thank you for describing a form of dimensionality that is possible.

  42. “I can’t quote this but didn’t Forrest say he believes many will be surprised by how simple the solve actually turns out to be???

    JDA do you have this quote in your list.?

    GCG”

    So I’d like to ask this question. If you can’t find a simple quote, how do you expect to ever find a treasure chest in the RMs?

    Pinatubocharlie

    • I doubt that this is the one you want, but maybe…
      Question posted 7/6/2014:

      Forrest, you talk about the clues being difficult to solve (opposite being easy) yet that the solutions are simple (opposite being complex). Yet when I read the stories of other searchers, I often think that their solutions to the clues tend to be either easy solutions or made out to be very complex and over-thought. Are there any suggestions you would give in approaching the clues and solving them? ~Craig

      Craig, there is no substitute for thinking and planning and observing and looking at maps, unless it’s the desire to keep it simple.f

      .JDA

    • Oooch PTC,

      Ya, this treasure thing might be harder than I thought!

      hahaha

      But truthfully I’ve read and listened to so much material I don’t have everything cataloged and I’m at work and the dang internet filter doesn’t like Tarryscant.com

      What can I say but …. help!

      GCG

  43. Noted GCG.

    My opinion was just that.

    I’ve been hand slapped for judging too harshly…..I guess….and too directly in the past.

    I won’t get into it anymore…..so that is all I was saying.

    If this poem is built upon combinatronics as the foundation and base format, it COULD very well last many years without being solved.

    This is just an idea I’ve had, because I see that the poem DOES include many of the components – imagination, probability, thinking, logic, opinion, math, cryptology, and other “treasure map” components. Combine them together. But how.

    …and an FYI….they do contain many parts of this structural phrasing…..if I were to use some sort of wording to explain my thought.

    One needs to think on multiple levels at certain times, but then again, only on one level at others. Perception plays a role for me.

    It is plausible in regards to many of FF comments….*shrugs*….I really don’t know.

    But of course….I read Tarot cards and work in the pseudo-sciences….my imagination continues to flow in various ways……not that which confirms to the normal way.

    But what would I know, huh?

    Good luck.

    • “One needs to think on multiple levels at certain times, but then again, only on one level at others.”

      Tim, I have similar thoughts about this chase. Part of me thinks that the best way and maybe the only way to solve it is to have a number of searchers that think in a variety of different ways sit down together and figure it out.

  44. Aaron,

    You just brought up the quote:

    “One needs to think on multiple levels at certain times, but then again, only on one level at others.”

    This perfectly speaks the intertwined idea mentioned above and this also relates to his comments about searchers needing to get back in the box.
    That yes imagination may be necessary but people are imagining the poem to be more difficult to decipher than it actually is…

    He said its about your ability to adjust (like the guy in the video he suggest watching, who had to relearn how to ride the bike which was geared to steer backwards).

    This has caused me to really strip my solve down and my final product is embarrassingly simple…

    GCG

  45. So I just heard about this treasure hunt. Very interesting stuff. Has anyone searched in white river national forest? He clearly is referencing a river in the poem and also mentions wood. It definitely seems like it’s going to be in the water somewhere. I’ll never have a chance to search and I don’t know the area, so maybe some one that does might possibly be able to link more clues to stuff.

    • Maybe around new castle. That would link to new and old bc castles are thought to be old. He read that he says it’s above 5000ft and new castle is 5600ft

  46. For me boots on the ground is most helpful in deciphering the clues. I made 5 trips to the same location and ruled out to my satisfaction all possibilities of my having the correct solve. But in doing so I gained insight into various ways that the phrases containing the clues can be read.

    For instance the phrase “Look quickly down your quest to cease” can be interpreted as:
    Look down at your feet where the blaze is found
    or if you are on a slope in a valley:
    Look down the steepest part of the slope to the bottom from the blaze
    Look down at a slight angle from the blaze
    Look down not far from the blaze

    Taking this together with other hints that Forrest Fenn has revealed (smell of pine needles and sage) may rule out some interpretations and so narrow the search.

    So how’s this working for me? Haa ha ha! Not so good yet. But this is how my mind works with the clues as I see them. I spend a lot of time pondering and for me that is part of the thrill.

  47. Loco,
    I have a question for you. Back as early as 2013 Dal posted:

    “$bill-
    Remember when Forrest stunned a couple of searchers last spring by writing that he has never handed out any clues. That the things he has said and written since the poem are not clues….

    He went further to say that his definition of a clue is something that will get you CLOSER to the treasure…”

    https://dalneitzel.com/2013/12/28/the-nine-clues-2/#comment-29493

    Ever since then the blogosphere has repeated this and the statement has morphed into : the difference between a hint and a clue is that the clue will move you closer and a hint only helps with a clue.

    The only real first hand F quote I can find says:

    “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will POINT you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”
    -Richard Eeds interview

    Do you have any knowledge of a first hand F quote using the word “closer” in this sense?

    • Colokid…I’m with you on that mutated/morphed hint/clue interpretation. Last year I started fresh and tossed the majority of my cache of files and notes. I figured why not do a reboot and see what sticks to the wall this time! It has been enlightening to have a better sense or feel for what may/may not be pertinent. Lots of new stuff popping up without the bias blinders in place.
      Anyways…I have not found what you are asking Loco for in my travels through the dredges. A really good source for primo early Fenn words is Lorene Mills interviewing him( 5/13/2011) I believe it is his first appearance. He says
      ” You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help with the clues.”
      Of course there are many times later where he alludes to this same idea…but I like the earlier, less prepared words.
      Good luck amigo…

      • Thanks for looking in to it Ken.
        Hopefully Loco with weight in but I’m pretty convinced there is no direct F quote regarding clues/hints using that word.

        • agree…
          Another interesting quote from Lorene’s interview that I did not catch way back…
          ” If you can follow the clues to the chest, you can have it, and the poem says that.”
          I remember reading this as stated early on…but it has a markedly different meaning to me now.

          • Ken;

            Sure sounds simple doesn’t it? – Just follow the clues, and you can have – I wish that it were that easy – Come on spring – JDA

      • Of course the very first time he mentions clues is in TToTC right after the poem.

        “There are also other subtle clues sprinkled in the stories”

    • whelp, you boys got me on that one…..CALF ROPE!! 🙂

      “He went further to say that his definition of a clue is something that will get you CLOSER to the treasure…”

      I couldn’t find anything in my stuff. Aaannd, hardhead that I am, I spent a few hours Googling every word/phrase that I thought might pull something and read 10 pages of returns for each search…….NADA!!!!

      It appears, IMO, that Mr. Neitzel possibly owns the distinction of being the first to post that one????

      (anyone else have/find anything??…LL???…JCM???))

      • Loco: I’ve got nothing from Forrest on clues taking you “closer” to the treasure chest. In my opinion, Forrest would never say it because it would be too big a clue (if it were true). Personally, I don’t think every clue brings you physically closer to the chest; I believe the route to the chest is somewhat circuitous, and I think there is a lot of evidence in Forrest’s ATF comments that supports the idea that the path to the treasure chest is not direct in any rectilinear sense.

      • still digging…..

        per Dal (Aug. 4, 2014): “Forrest later told us the difference. ***A clue (paraphrasing) will get you closer to the treasure.***
        https://dalneitzel.com/2014/07/30/the-nine-clues-4/#comment-47103
        ……………………………………..

        So, it appears that Fenn ‘told'(?) us sometime between Scrapbook 39(that’s what started it all)Aug. 31, 2013 and Aug 1, 2014(dal’s post above)??

        ??Did he ‘tell’ us here on this site?? (and how was it ‘phrased’???)

        LOL!! I don’t know that I’m going to go back and read the comments made on every Post that dal put up in that time frame!!!! 🙂

        IF, I at some point find anything, I’ll tell ya…..but don’t hold yer breath……….

        Good Luck Everybody!!!………..loco 🙂

        • Loco – search my chronological document for ‘take you to’ and it will pull up several comments that are in line with the idea that the clues will take you close to the chest. My long term memory, for what it is worth, still pulls up that ‘closer’ comment as likely being a statement from Goofy.

          • Could be?? I really ain’t that worried about it. I just wanted to help Colo out….like us, he been around awhile.

            But, it is curious that Dal said, in two different posts, that Fenn had ‘told us’.

          • Oh, and I did search both documents, after I could find nothing in mine……and I agree, there several comments Fenn has made that are in line with the idea that the clues will take you close to the chest.

            But, dang it, if he did make the comment that Colo is referencing, and that Dal says that Fenn made…..I wanta find it!!!! 🙂

          • Course Dal, being the kind, sweet gracious host that he is, could weigh in and tell us where it’s at???…..then we could get back to discussing how to find the dang chest!!

    • Hi Loco/Cologuy- this sounds remeniscent of the email rounds (I think it was email – may be wrong on that) that Goofy went with f over what a clue was versus a hint several years back. I had missed that whole conversation at that time and never did read the details that I think Goofy posted about that incident with f; I only remember discussions later that referred back to Goofy’s comments.

      I may be completely off with this whole thing. If I am even remotely correct and it is buried in the comments from several years ago, I don’t think a google search will turn it up as google algorithms don’t crawl and index the comments section of blogs like this.

      • Hi JCM, thanks.

        Yeah, I checked the SB39 thread over at the other place. Dal posted there, what fenn had explained to him about his(fen’s) remarks which had set every body off….it has no mention of what Colo is searching for.

        And google does crawl the comments section….I usually have pretty good luck with a few key words or a short phrase

        example……. JCM site:https://dalneitzel.com/(or anything in place of JCM)……course it sometimes takes a while to read the returns and determine if there is anything pertinent. 🙂

        • Loco, JCM,

          Thanks fellas….I figured if anyone could find it you guys would. I did a similar search and came up empty. My recollection was that this might have been something overheard by Dal….similar to the YSP is too big to be WWWH. Could have been Goofy though.

          I think it’s obvious that the clues do take you all the way to the TC (so closer) once you get started from the right spot. And we’ve been told time and again that clues will lead to the chest but hints (by themselves) will not. The distinction I was interested in was the difference between what a clue does compared to a hint. If ONLY a clue can take you closer, then that greatly restricts what a hint is or how a hint can function. Seems we’ve cleared that up….I hope.

          • Colokid, good discussion!

            You said…”If ONLY a clue can take you closer, then that greatly restricts what a hint is or how a hint can function. Seems we’ve cleared that up….I hope.”

            I think there is one important aspect of what you said that doesn’t get brought up by searchers.

            If a clue gets us closer to the treasure then one must ask themselves closer from what? Not your house or mine but from clue one. So hints can be utilized before clue one to get one closer to the tc but not closer than clue one or any after that, imo.

          • To add another example… if we are talking about clue 5 then clue 6 has to bring us closer to the tc than clue 5.

          • Hi FD: “closer” measured how? As the crow flies, or along the specific path laid out by the clues? I would not necessarily assume the former since the path could be circuitous.

          • Zap,
            Even if the path were circuitous, one could argue that each step takes you ‘closer’ to finding the chest. Closer is a relative word like ‘warm’. It could mean physically compared to a starting point but it doesn’t have to.

            Just for arguements sake, why do you believe the path is circuitous? What’s the added benefit to F to create a torturous path (natural terrain aside). Seems like it’s hard enough just to get started. LOL

          • Colokid: I was just trying to point out that nature is rarely rectilinear; routes have twists and turns. If at any point following the clues you accumulate a change in direction that is greater than 90 degrees, then some portion of your journey will necessarily have taken you further from the treasure (even if only temporarily). It doesn’t have to be as severe as a trail switchback.

          • Perhaps another intriguing way to look at the “closer” distance issue would be to consider Fenn’s many comments about the first two clues. The first two clues gets a searcher within 200′ of Indulgence ! This is the find it or walk/drive on by spot. Circles, loops, 7 more passes through some layers does not really sound like the way to go. I think the failure rate and Fenn’s ATF’s seem to indicate that the remaining clues have simply not been deciphered correctly, or at all. I personally believe that is it. One foot down and step on it…and so forth.

          • Yes, I believe that to be the case. IMO there is a big misinterpretation of clue 3 or 4 that leads searchers astray.

          • Ken;

            I am confused. When has Forrest ever said, “The first two clues gets a searcher within 200′ of Indulgence” He has said that several people have solved the first two clues, and he has said that searchers have been within 200′, but I have never seen where he has said that these statements are connected. Can you provide a quote and source? Thanks in advance – JDA

          • JDA…there’s a cute little video done by Julius Brighton 5/20/15 with clips of Dal searching and talking…and interview clips with Fenn talking. It is nicely done and informative. At the 6:25 mark or so You can watch Fenn say…”There have been a few people within 500′. I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.

          • Seeker-
            I wrote an accompanying story about that shoot in 2013 after the BBC filmed us. In the USA we could not watch the BBC program until Julius posted it to YouTube in 2015. Please remember that in 2013 we didn’t know about the chest not being in water…I made lots of mistakes…
            I still make plenty of mistakes but they are new ones…
            Anyway…if you are interested in knowing more about the BBC crew and how that shoot materialized you can read here:
            https://dalneitzel.com/2013/08/17/the-british-are-coming/

          • Don’t feel bad JDA…there are MANY in those same shoes. This video is real and what I wrote came from Fenn’s mouth. I can anticipate there will be those that will find a “loop hole” that fits their needs…but I believe Fenn has been linking first two clues and 200′ consistently for quite some time. It is just his choice of words in many instances that shades the facts. I have an old link to this video, but I believe you could TS it (the first two clues) and see it yourself. Adjustment…

          • Hey Ken –

            As you predicted Zap came on and told us how Forrest didn’t mean what he plainly said.

            He did that because he can’t walk his solve from a sedan. Zap, that’s correct right?

            Forrest clearly equates solving to clues and being within 500 (or 200) feet.

            Park your sedan. You are at The place where warn waters halt. Now walk the solve in half of one afternoon. Alternatively, you can stay home and shoot craps.

            In my opinion dearies
            Lugnutz

          • I think there is still room for interpretation in Forrest’s three sentences:

            1. “There have been a few people within 500 feet.”

            2. “I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet.”

            3. “They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.”

            Who is the “They” in sentence #3? The people within 500 feet, or the people within a couple hundred feet? The closest antecedent is the previous sentence, but I can see how a searcher could take the third sentence as a more general statement about people who have been close.

          • Yes, he did not clarify “they”. It does seem to make the most sense that “they” are the 200 footers since he said “They figure the first two clues…” immediately after the 200 foot statement, as you stated.

            FF is vague about things much of the time but to me this is pretty clear.

          • Zap…adjustment may be more critical than trying to conjure up a different way to use or interpret what Fenn is clearly saying. You choose…
            I believe that there is more to what I am saying and have shared here today. The first two clues combined…contiguously…to the third clue. Therein lies the rub…

          • Lugnutz: I’m sure you’d like to believe you can get inside my head and know my thoughts, but believe me you aren’t even close.

            “…Zap came on and told us how Forrest didn’t mean what he plainly said.”

            No, I did nothing of the sort. I provided an EXCUSE for those searchers who don’t like the 200-foot, first two clues comment. I am so far beyond the 200/500 debate that it no longer concerns or interests me in the least.

            “Park your sedan. You are at The place where warn waters halt.”

            Park there if you want. Take in the view.

            “Now walk the solve in half of one afternoon.”

            Err, no thanks. I prefer to do what the poem tells me to do.

    • Here’s the most direct quote I’ve found concerning hints vs. clues, “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.” f Unfortunately I did not save the source for this quote.

      • scroll back up to Colokid’s OP….he tell’s ya where to find the quote. 🙂

        Good Luck to Ya, kg………loco

  48. I’m not sure that this the right place to post this, because it doesn’t really pertain to the 9 clues. But, on the map, regarding the highlighted areas, has there been clarification about areas just outside what is definitely clear? For instance, Douglas, WY. Is that considered outside the area? I can easily see that Trinidad is in the area, but how far to the east does the searchable area go….just a little past the Y? I thought at first that the area I was looking was in the map, which it was. But, after Google mapping another place or 3, I found one which is a little questionable. Like on the area east of Raton, does that go to the 8^0 line? Bandelier Nat Mon, is the Bandelier portion (written) within the zone, and not the area covered by Nat Mon? Hoping this makes sense. Happy Hunting to all and thank you so much, Dal, for having this site! I have lurked for a while.

    • TK,
      Fenn specifically ruled Bandelier in the searchable area because it is on the map. https://dalneitzel.com/2014/06/25/scrapbook-seventy-eight/

      There is some debate about whether it really is 8.25 miles north of SF though.

      In general, anything east of I-25 would not be worth considering….That far east really isn’t in the Rocky Mts. Douglas is right on the line so I would rule it out.

      Probably best to stick with the colored areas of the map and places actually ‘in the mountains’ IMO.

        • As you say Ken, SB-78 should be required reading. Straight forward and to the point on several important issues. I personally like #7 the best – I guess that that would put most of us at about #100 or so on the list. JDA

        • TK, you’ll still need to make the call yourself, but I believe we cannot necessarily exclude areas ‘on the map’ in the blurry portion…here is my thinking…do the places not ‘on the map’ cease to exist? Of course not, they are indeed there in the real world, the real question then becomes, ‘What does “within the highlighted region of the Rocky Mountains” mean’? Simple test, ask someone if Denver is ‘in the rocky mountains’, my guess is many will say yes, unless they latch onto that word ‘in’, living here most of my life I say no…NOW, the thing you need to consider is that where the chest lies, Forrest can see mountains, trees, animals, (paraphrasing)…additionally, we have anecdotes from 2 searchers who claim they were told by FF directly that their solves at that time were not ‘in the mountains’, one involved a desert area, very clearly in the highlighted region the map, another similar, not ‘in the mountains’. The point here, IMO, is that mountains play heavily into the solve…but don’t forget, this only applies to the END point of where the chest lies, it is entirely plausible a starting point/or other clue could be outside the map, or in the blurry areas, IMO.

          My example: The Rocky Mountain Arsenal…has the name Rocky Mountain in it…(so you could be ‘in’ it, yes a bit of a reach), the elevations are above 5K, has a warm water body, has several ‘homes of brown’ (critters), but I ended there when I focused on the ‘in the mountains’ and ‘I see trees’ ATF comments…but good to think outside the box! (And just in case someone decides to go look there, remember, it was a nuclear and hazardous weapons manufacturing facility through the early 1970s, several heavy metal holding ponds, various sketchy areas, so not exactly in line with something FF seems to enjoy about the outdoors (IMO), albeit the area was rehabbed and is now a FEDERAL WILDLIFE REFUGE (legal issues IMO). Another thing I don’t see a lot of folks discuss…what about that list of ‘public lands’ on the right of the map…interesting order/colors IMO…anyone, thoughts?

  49. I’m not convinced or favorably impressed by the above posting
    (March 15, 12:45 PM) from “Ken”.

    I DON’T BELIEVE that solving just the poem’s first 2 clues provides enough information to guide a searcher to a place within 200 feet of where the TC now is. But “Ken” didn’t use the word “feet”, so may
    have (very sneakily) meant “minutes” (a navigational term), which is
    WAY different.

    This would tend to mislead a bunch of folks. Please re-read that
    message and do some calculating. And, like I’ve been preaching for
    a long time, don’t under-estimate FF.

    I also suggest that you don’t under-estimate any other searchers.
    The prize has attracted a lot of brainpower into this hunt.

  50. In my solutions I have always imagined that Forrest parks his vehicle near where we “put in below the home of Brown”. In my opinion the distance from “Begin it….” to “Put in…” is, as Forrest states, Too far to walk…so don’t walk it..
    Take a vehicle …I think that’s what he is telling us in that section of the poem…and if you have to take a vehicle you have to get out and walk at some point because we can’t “drive” to the hidey place. There is no nearby human made trail.
    The place where you might park is a place where you also might have to move your vehicle…hence his suggestion that if you bring a friend have them stay with the car…(not a quote)…while you go get the chest.
    Just some thoughts…shows you how my dysfunctional brain attacks a problem..

    • Dal, good thought on f’s poem needing to tell us when to get out of our vehicle. I’ve pictured the Put in line as a fork in the road. I’ve considered the semi colon as the transition from vehicle to botg.

      • Mr. Ken–

        Something you posted a while back helped me understand what I believe to be the last clue:” Brave and in the wood.”

        Thank you. If the deputy and I find it….remember I owe you. If you think I could ever repay the favor, just let me know.

        Best regards;

        1 F Billy

        • I wouldn’t be surprised if there’s a durable
          ladder (or other “bridge-like thing”) hidden
          among the trees there.

        • Hey Billy! No thanks needed…
          If you find it I just want a personal invite to see the goods ! I may seem gruff in some of my comments…but I really do want someone to find this thing. Preferably me…but there are a ton of folks out there on the hunt…it is only a matter of time.
          Best regards and good luck to you and your deputies.

    • I am guessing from your earlier solve that you begin it where the headwaters meet. Then you drive down to ‘Browns’. It is there that you start to walk.
      There is a lot of open space there though.
      I am still looking in canyons.

      • Okay, I was wrong about the too much open space.
        While looking at google earth I saw some nice spots down stream from your ‘Browns’. On the west side of the road there is a butte that looks nice. IMO

      • Michael-
        I have a couple of different WWWH locations in the general YNP area that I alternate between…(keeping my options open…being open minded…hedging my bets…or once I convince myself that a solve didn’t work out)..but…yes..I start at one of my WWWH locations…then I can follow it in the canyon down on my map to see where it is going…all the way to the HOB..(which depends on the WWWH). I park near there in a public area and begin walking and searching for a blaze.

    • You see, Lugnutz? Dal gets it. Park at WWWH at your own peril. The poem clearly says that’s a bad idea. It’s “Put in below the home of Brown,” not “put in where warm waters halt.”

      • I don’t know. To me you guys are saying two different things. Dal says he looks on the map for HOB and parks near there. You say Dal gets it “Put in below home of Brown”.

        So people if people are going past the TC at the 3rd clue then what would you guys say is the second? CD or TFTW? When FF answered the question about number of clues in the second stanza he said it sounds like 3 or 4. If he gave an exact number he would give too much away. If there are only 3 clues in that stanza what do you subscribe too? FF said WWWH is the first clue yet that is only half of a sentence. Can half of the sentence be the first clue? So many things to ponder..

      • Zap

        Say WWH is Madison Junction. HoB is Fs bathing spot on the firehole.

        If you can see both on the map what was the point of including Madison Junction?

        Also are you saying HoB is Clue 2? Because Forrest clearly says it exactly as Ken wrote. People have solved only the first 2, been within a few hundred feet, not understood the next clues and walked past the TC.

        Anyhow you and I have been over this before. You don’t believe any of the various statements by Forrest that point to walking all the clues in half of an afternoon from a sedan as an 80 year old man who couldn’t comfortably carry the load in one trip.

        Finally, just because Dan agrees with you on something doesn’t make you right.

        Lugnutz

        • That’s a fantastic typo as I typed Dal and my phone corrected to Dan, which is my name in the real world.

        • Lugnutz: no, I have never believed HoB was clue #2. As for walking all the clues, you are in the minority in believing that’s what you’re supposed to do. It is not a well-supported theory by any ordinary reading of Forrest’s poem and ATF remarks.

          • Zap –

            We are discussing what F said in the interview that was posted.

            Here is the quote in plain English:

            ”There have been a few people within 500 feet. I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.”

            Do you understand?

            He says people have been within hundreds of feet having solved the first 2 clues but no the 3rd and 4th.

            Lugnutz

          • Lug;

            It is all in the interpretation. I see it is three separate, disjointed sentences.
            Sentence #1.”There have been a few people within 500 feet.” – Period – end of thought.
            Sentence #2 – I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet.
            Period – end of thought.
            Sentence #3 – They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.” Period, end of thought.

            To read it any other way, to me, creates problems. Clue #1 BIWWWH. This we can all agree on.
            Clue #2 And take it in the canyon down, Not far, but too far to walk.
            You are saying that this trip, that is too far to walk, takes you to within 200′ AND within 500′? Sorry, the logic just doesn’t work for me. Once you reach this spot, you still have to “put In”, you still have to go where the meek would not want to go, you still have to go to the “END”, go to a no paddle creek and find heavy loads and water high, and then the blaze – ALL within a circle with a diameter of 250′???? Sorry, just doesn’t male sense that one would be within 500′, looking for all of these landmarks, and yet “walk right past it” – Please explain – JDA

          • If it was not for the pronoun “they” in the last sentence you would have a good argument JDA.

            They: used to refer to two or more people or things previously mentioned or easily identified.

            They refers to people in one of the previous statements. Since the previous statement referred to the 200 footers it is hard to deny that the people in that statement is the “they” in the next.

            Confidence in a solve can make a person conjure up lots of different meanings to ATF’s. Be careful…

          • Aaron;

            Probably good advice – advice that you might take to heart also.

            “They” can refer to searchers in general, no necessarily those few searchers that were 200′ away from Indulgence.

            Look at my comment to Lug – Can you explain the point of view that says you must find all but the first two clues in a circle with a radius of 250′? Hard to explain from where I sit. JMO – JDA

          • “Can you explain the point of view that says you must find all but the first two clues in a circle with a radius of 250′?”

            Why can’t 7 clues be within 250′? The clues point to other things besides a location. HLAWH likely just things you see on the way to confirm you are near the blaze. In fact, perhaps NPUYC and no place for the meek are the only clues that refer to covering some distance out of the last 7 clues. I can see those two combining for 200′.

          • Aaron;

            We each have our views, and that is good. Logic has to fit in somewhere though, don’t you agree?
            “Put in below the home of Brown”. = A place of some kind. A “Thing” if you will. How big of a “Thing” – big enough, at least to be noticed – but it takes up space in our 250′ radius (500′ circle).

            “From there (Indicating that it is not exactly at the hoB, but FROM there some distance) it’s no place for the meek.” What is this “Place”? In order to be a “Place” it must also take up space of some kind – there goes a bit more of our allotted distance.
            “The end is ever drawing nigh” – this implies movement from the “Meek Place” doesn’t it? Movement = distance – OOPS there goes some more of out allotted space.

            “There’ll be no paddle up your creek”
            A creek implies distance of some kind, or else it would be (at least) a puddle of some kind – or a small pond or small lake – again distance – Darn, there goes some more of our 250′ distance.

            “Just heavy Loads…” Anything that is heavy MUST take up some kind of space. Even a lead marble (Doubt that heavy loads = a lead marble though – too hard to see) must, by its nature, take up some space.
            “…and water high” even if “Water High” is a small puddle – even that will take up SOME space – maybe not a lot, but some. Will a small puddle last 100 or 1,000 years? Probably not, so one could easily postulate that “Water High” = more than a small puddle. = more space or distance.

            “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,” Again, the blaze has to be a “Thing” of some kind – no matter how small. So, it will take up “some” space.

            “Look quickly down, your quest to cease.” Why look down? To see “Something” – Something – ANYTHING takes up space, so alas, there goes some more of our space.

            If you stop here, as many searchers do, we have already used up a heck of a lot of space don’t you think?

            If we go on, “So why…etc to: Your efforts will be worth the cold” – probably no “Things” here.

            “If you are brave and in the wood…” Whether “wood” implies a forest or a single tree, or “something” made of wood, we are again at a spot where “Some” space has to be taken up.

            “As I have gone alone in there” – IN where? it makes no difference – “In There” implies space, in a group of trees, in a crevice, in a glen – In Wherever – that “Place” implies space – some more of our precious 250′ or 500′

            Sorry – I just can not picture all of these required “Spaces” being in a space 250′ – or even 500′ Even if it is a 500′ circle, and all of these things are like a spiral maze, starting at the outer limits, and working our way into the center, where we find Indulgence.

            Draw yourself a little picture, and try to place all of these items inside. If you can’t draw, create a spiral diagram with just the needed words that represent the “Things”, and you will have to write pretty small to get them all to fit inside your circle.

            I could be wrong, and you could be correct, it is just hard to envision how you can fit it all into such a confined space. Go outside, draw yourself a circle with a diameter 05 500′ – now, start reading the poem at hoB. Give hoB “some” dimension – some dimension that you think logical by what you have figured it out to be. Mark of a “chunk” of your circle – continue to the end, and see for yourself if it can all fit in your circle. – Have fun! – JMO – JDA

          • JDA

            Perhaps this is a game of up the river down the river.

            Think of roads where you think, thats a nice view (bwwwh), but you cant stop at that spot to take a picture, instead you have to go another mile (tiinycd) and park (bthob), so now have yo you walk back up the hill (tbnpuyc). But something catches your eye, (a blaze).

            I didnt want to fill in all the clues, dont think theres somethung. Perhaps everything is on the same road/river that goes through a canyon.

          • JDA, you make some valid points but I see some things different than you as you stated. Putting in below HOB, to me, doesn’t mean it takes up any real space.

            No place for the meek doesn’t have to take up much space IMO either. It could just mean you walk off trail here.

            There is nothing in the poem that gives us distances. Walking less than a few miles doesn’t give us a minimum distance. The 200′ and 500′ feet remarks are the only things we have heard from Fenn regarding solid distances. For all we know all 9 clues can fit into a 500′ radius.

            I could write similar clues with similar sounding verbiage and keep them all in my backyard if I wanted. It’s funny because I actually do have an area that resembles a canyon, as well as heavy loads and water high with a rocky waterfall leading into a goldfish pond.

          • There’s no minimum or maximum distance in the poem.
            He said he followed the clues when hiding and we should to.
            We know he drove some of the way.
            You could follow the path in your mind.

        • Lugnutz

          Are you interpreting
          “People have solved only the first 2, been within a few hundred feet”
          That these are the same people?

          • Kira –

            I am not interpreting anything,
            I am quoting the man.

            ”There have been a few people within 500 feet. I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.”

            https://vimeo.com/128361901

            Many will ignore this because it goes against their “solve”.

            Good luck!
            Lugnutz

          • Lignuts

            Maybe I should have written, how do you see this statement from fenn. As 1 2 or 3 different teams.

          • Lugnutz, we all know the quote, so there isn’t much point in repeating it over and over. I say it can be understood to mean several things, and so I don’t understand your reluctance to acknowledge that. Your interpretation involves an assumption. Sure, it’s not an ~unreasonable~ assumption based on the usual rules of English, but it is not the only way to read it. Be mindful of Twain’s line: “It ain’t what you don’t know that gets you in trouble. It’s what you know for sure that just ain’t so.”

            My prediction: most of the searchers who have solved the first two clues and been within 500 feet of the treasure chest have never been within 200 feet. Frankly, it’s not so much a prediction on my part — it’s pretty much a statement of fact based on the things Forrest has said/written.

    • Dal, I think you may be onto something here . . . I tend to
      think of the friend in the car as a bit of a sentry . . . provided
      that cellphones would work between there and the hidey
      place. IMO.

    • Then why BIWWWH? Good question. Without that one nailed you have nothing. The only reason I can come up with is that the starting point in the poem… not necessarily the physical staring point… is part of the blaze.

      • Dwrock

        Sure that makes sense. I was talking about the people who see WWWH as a stand alone clue some distance away from subsequent clues.

        What too hard saying makes sense. WwWH may be inextricably linked to tge otgwr clues/location.

        Lugnutz

  51. Here’s another thing…Water High…
    Forrest made an interesting statement about the poem in general here:
    https://dalneitzel.com/2012/10/02/forrest-gets-mail/
    “What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the “water high” when I am through with it? ”

    Does that mean Forrest could actually ride his bike out to Water High? Does that mean Water High is something you could actually toss a bike into? …and why would he be through with his bike at Water High?

    Is there help in those few lines or just more rabbit holes?

    • IMO – Forrest either owns the land or his friend does which is along that stretch of water high. Therefore he could just ride his bike down the walking path, throw it in the water high and finish at the blaze. IMO

      Billy

      • Hello Sherif Billy. This may be a possibility, especially when in an interview he says (paraphrasing), “What if there’s no problems?” when talking about retrieving the treasure chest.

    • Mostly rabbit holes. It would seem to say that a portion of the boots on the ground involves a trail. That trail can be ridden on a bike. Or, that he didn’t have to drive his car to the first clues.
      Now I have to think of the places where he mentioned using a bike. 1. Riding to his bathing spot on the Firehole River. 2. Going to Grebe Lake with Concy. He also mentioned going there with his father. 3. He could ride in any direction out of West Yellowstone, and down any rabbit hole. That’s all I have IMO.

    • It was the old Water High bike shop, but it’s no longer there. Good luck finding any trace of it on the internet.

    • Dal

      This is just my opinion. I think he was just joking around with that bike statement. I do not believe it has any hint or real meaning.

      Franklin

      • Of course he was joking.
        He is messing with us for thinking so little of his poem that we think there is water up high somewhere.

        Lugnutz

        • Of course he was joking. That is my opinion. I’m sure you agree. After all, why toss a perfectly good bike into the water high when you could just hide it behind the heavy loads?

          Franklin

          • I agree, he was joking with us. I do however, interpret the “it” as Indulgence and not the bike.

          • Franklin –

            Whenever I leave that house I wear a hat as all men should, and did up until about 1964.

            The straw diamond crown pork pie in my original avatar is my favorite hat.

            No hat maker had made a diamond crown pork pie for decades until someone at Scala rediscovered the missing hat block. About 17 years ago they used it to make one inexpensive wool hat and one inexpensve straw. When I first wore it into Hats Plus they were unaware that a diamond crown block was in use again. I bought mine as a second because the rim was cut wrong. I replaced with a new one with the proper rim, but the second has been through a lot with me. I keep it in a box on my island of misfit hats. My hat maker in Oregon wants to repair my old hats but so far I have never taken him up on the offer.

            Lugnutz

    • Rabbit holes.

      Please note that a question is not a statement or claim of anything.

      Here’s a question . . .

      What is wrong with me just welding your toothpick to the
      cloud in the largest crater on Mars?

      I don’t believe that FF rode any kind of bike on the day that he hid the TC.

      Please remember that he has told us about ditching his
      class, as well as other — shall we say — “mischief”. I
      honestly believe that he was –shall we say — “mischievous” on the day he hid the TC. But not
      witnessed in the act of being “mischievous”. So it’s not
      a big deal, and no huge harm was done anyway by the
      “mischief”.

      It’s good to have a Jeep (or similar vehicle).

      The above is my opinion.

  52. Does anyone know if Forrest’s sedan had a trailer hitch on it? Just to eliminate if he used a boat to get to a creek.

  53. I think when you park your car at the HOB you are within 200 feet of the treasure. A road is not a human trail IMO. He knows searchers have been within 200 feet as they have told him what road they are on. When they keep driving down that same road they have gone past the other clues.

    • Considering Mr. F’s statement that goes something like….searchers have been within 200′ but didn’t understand the clues and walked right past”

      To me that means the searchers were focused and going toward a destination they were fixed on when they walked right past. What or where was it that were fixed on? IMO If we knew that, we might know where to look without being distracted.

      Best regards to all

      Billy

      • Mr. Jim A. Wi—-

        The ski areas in NM have web cams which you can use to get an idea of the conditions there. IMO Be safe, and take plenty of water.

        Billy

        • Thanks for the info. Much appreciated. I was very suprised that in 2015. FF said ; to his knowledge nobody has come up with one possibility to the solve. That’s after 4 years of emails & letters he was receiving . My one notion is you need to look at the big picture as he says. I don’t believe using the whole map to get back to one location is correct. I was convinced until tonight. All 9 clues where mentally referring to the same thing. Intertwined. Which would have you circle back to the starting of the poem. And then physical starting on foot from there. I can’t get into my latest. My mind already hurts. Lol.

  54. You have to follow the clues in order because that road eventually comes to a dead end as there is one way in and one way out.

    • Kelly, I think you’re manifesting some assumptions that
      are not valid.

      The nearest road to the location of the TC has two ends,
      each of which intersects another street/road/highway.
      No “dead end” is involved, and even with regards to
      accessing the hidey place by hiking, there are several
      ways in and several ways out by hiking. All IMO.

      • Hello tigherfocus. Was there a “Featured Question” where Mr. Fenn stated (paraphrasing) he only knew of one way to get to the treasure chest? I tried to do a quick search, but I couldn’t find it.

        Are there searchers who know what I may be talking about?

  55. Dal’s post above about water high may seem off kilter in terms of the possibility that Fenn rode his bike…then tossed it. Rabbit holes??
    This may very well be…but…Fenn has talked of his plan to go out there and toss himself on the treasure and let his bones go back to the Earth.
    Unless the Starship Enterprise was going to beam him to the location, I would have to believe there would be a reasonable plan that he concocted to evade discovery…starting at his vehicle. Putting this into perspective and matching to a possible area is likely important.

    • His sedan would likely give away the location of the treasure and his bones.
      Game over when he’s reported missing and the vehicle found.

      • So, Forrest parks his sedan in a designated parking area – somewhere. Let’s assume that this spot is the trailhead for 2,3 or 4 different trails. Forrest takes one of these trails. He walks along the chosen trail some distance – let’s say 1/2 mile to 1 mile. He leaves the trail and “Bushwhacks” for some distance – let’s say 1/4 to 1/2 mile, and reaches his hidey spot. Let’s assume that it is not “in the open”, but rather among the trees, and maybe along a craggy bluff of some kind. He enters a crevice of some kind, lied down in a very small “niche” among the rocks, takes a hand full of pills, and gently pats Indulgence, and says “Good Night dear friend”.

        Of course, his vehicle will be found. Search teams first have to figure out which of the 2,3 or 4 trails he took – good luck. so they fan out – searching all of the trails. They hike several miles up each trail – no luck. They decide he must have left the trail – but where. They send up helicopters or drones – no luck – Forrest is hidden in his crevice.

        A few days later, a bear catches Forrest’s scent, but all he can reach is a shoe, and finally gives up.

        Forrest and Indulgence are comfortable in their special hiding place, until, at-last, someone figures out all of the clues. By then, all that is left are the bones, and Indulgence. “Forrest has thought of everything.” – JMO – JDA

      • I don’t know if we would have had much information about how to find the chest if he would had gone through with leaving his body. He made the poem more elaborate with better clues since that original plan. Even if he left his car parked within a few miles of the chest it still may have been difficult to find.

      • Mr. Chance—-
        I can think or a million places you could find Forrest’s car and it wouldn’t help you find the box. For instance……What if you found his car at the Denver airport….now what?

        Billy

    • Simplest solution indeed involves a bicycle — I explained this on one of the other blogs (forget which). Reader’s Digest version: Forrest rents car, stashes Indulgence, returns car (preferably at rental place hundreds of miles away). Takes bus/train/whatever to town nearest the treasure, buys a cheap bicycle with cash. Rides xx miles back to treasure location, or as close as can be reached by bicycle. Ditches/hides bike well off any beaten path. Walks remaining distance to hidey place and settles in for the Big Sleep.

      Car rental is of no help. Bicycle purchase could take months to track down — assuming the store clerk was even paying attention to what the customer looked like. Even if the bike place is found, if Forrest bikes 20 miles, that’s a 1200-plus-square-mile circle for just his starting point. (Not really, since he’d only be able to ride the bike on a finite number of paths, but still a huge area.) And then add on a 1- or 2-mile walk in any direction from the bike-ditch-spot. I’d say the secret location would have been quite safe.

      • Zap;

        Instead of buying bike at nearest city – Buy the bike where he rented the car – hundreds of miles away maybe – stash bike in nearest city on way to hiding Indulgence. Like you say – return car, catch a ride to nearest city, retrieve bike, peddle to site and throw bike into No Paddle creek, or hide it near-by. Good Night – JDA

      • Yep, JDA — even better. The best plan puts point of origin for all modes of transportation as far from Indulgence as possible.

      • I would say the bike thing is Genn giving a rrspinse to such a poorly framed email rather than an actual bike usage or could be used.

  56. These recent comments about using a bicycle to just get closer to the
    hidey place all seem reasonable. But this all relates to a possible future
    visit there by FF.

    I still don’t think he used a bicycle to transport the TC on the day he hid it. I believe he used a 4×4 sedan. Not a horse, pack mule, or other animal. Not a motorcycle or trike. I can imagine a small ATV having 4 wheels. The ATV could have been on a trailer towed by a jeep or car
    to a “reasonable parking place”. All IMO.

    • I’m sure a atv would be prohibited in most eras. Back to my question earlier. Does anyone actually know what type of a sedan F.F. had in 2007-09? To me a Jeep is not even close to a sedan. I know he used to have a Jeep in his Air Force days. If I the sedan was like a Caddilac or such. It helps eliminates the chance of towing. And I hear people convinced thst sincr he said he took 2 trips from his car. Means he went right to his secret spot? Why couldn’t of he made 2 trips from his car to a horse then . To the secret spot. Also how he uses the word secret In many quotes seems very odd.

      • Jim A.

        The definition of a sedan = an enclosed automobile for four or more people, having two or four doors. – This covers a variety of automobiled, and a Jeep certainly fits. ANY SUV fits, as well as your conventional Ford, Chevy or Cadillac.

        I have thought about a horse, but if a horse, why the need for two trips? A horse can carry Forrest AND 42 lbs of treasure. Just a thought – JDA

        • I don’t believe he used a horse. But I meant, he took two trips to the horse from his car. Or to a boat. I’m trying to factualy eliminate the possibility of a small island In a Reservoir. (WWWH) The reference to what make was his sedan? Generally speaking if you where searching to buy a sedan. You will not be looking at Jeeps, SUV, Hummer etc.. you be looking at cars that typically would leisure cars. I’m guessing since he was already a millionaire. He had quite a nice luxury Sedan. AKA.. No trailer hitch. But I rather know facts over my own assumptions. Thanks for the follow up.

          • If you did not mean he rode a horse, I still do not get what you mean. You say, “he took two trips to the horse… Where did this horse come from? None in the poem that I know of. Just askin’.

            If you are looking at the poem in a simplistic literal sense such as: sedan = only cars that typically would be leisure cars, may I suggest you re-evaluate? I do believe that the poem is straight forward, but I also believe that every word needs to be evaluated and every meaning of every word explored until you can pick the meaning of a word that Forrest wanted you to use. JMO – JDA

          • Sorry . For the miscommunication. I’m not equating the sedan with the poem. Or a horse. Forrest said he took his sedan. Ff. -” I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon. ” I’m trying to eliminate the possibility of from his car to the hiding place could involved a small boat. (PUT IN) When he was asked about alternative transportation in between. He would not answer that question.

        • @ Kira = Or riding a bike 20+ miles, IMO (Well, if it was an all down-hill trip, maybe). 🙂

          IMO, if FF used any other mode of transportation from his parked car to the hidey space, 2 trips would not be necessary—plan on said mode being optimal for making just 1 trip, then sit and enjoy your favorite spot and a sandwich or two before departing.

  57. Oh, come guys & gals. Forrest didn’t ride a bike anywhere. No one knew he was hiding a treasure. He took his car, or a rental, drove to the location. Parked (put in) hiked to hidey spot, returned to car, hiked to hidey spot, returned to car, went to rental or to where he was staying. No one the wiser.
    By the time he releases the book and people start getting interested no one would ever remember he had been in the area of the hidey spot!
    IMO
    Lets get back to a more logical discussion. Or not.
    EOG

  58. JDA

    Hi, there is nowhere to reply above and I am not getting the emails so I hope you see this.

    I do not believe the clues are directions.
    To me the clues are just references to places.

    So there is no conflict between NFTW and my assertion that all the clues are together.

    Fenn said that all in one breath, one thought amplified through his mouth. At that time in 2013 Fenn was not aware of anyone having solved clues 3 and 4. At the same time he was aware that searchers had been within 200 feet.

    You see?

    There is nothing to interpret. He is plainly saying change TC is within 500 feet of where we begin.

    I don’t understand how you can see this any other way.

    Lugnutz

    • Lugnutz,

      Somewhere after the second clue, the second clue is NFBTFTW, so most people missed every thing past that point. But maybe some have solved all of the clues to water high and missed everything after that. There is no distance even hinted in the poem.

      Sure f has said searchers have been within 200′ to 500′ of the treasure. Doesn’t necessarily mean that distance is near the starting point. ‘From there” in the poem to me means more travel.

      In your theory, that with in 500′ every thing is all crammed into a small area, such as wwh, canyon, hoB, creek, water high and the blaze.

      I don’t think that is plausible, there is much more distance in the poem. I believe f said, (paraphrased) that 10 miles is too far to walk. Question is why did f say in the poem, “but too far to walk.”? Doesn’t that suggest more than 500’?

      All my opinion

      • I need to correct, “There is no distance even hinted in the poem.” my incorrect statement. “Too far to walk”, suggests distance.

        • Charlie M –

          Fenn uses Too Far To Walk as euphemism.

          He is giving you a clue, but he is not giving a direction.

          That’s my opinion. There are no directions and there is no distance being given.

          Here is an example. You are standing at Artist Point looking at the falls. Your are looking at waters halting and taking it in a canyon down. So you are there because the falls or Grand Canyon of Yellowstone is your starting point.

          Now you need to figure out where to go. Down the steps? Other side of the canyon?

          You tell Forrest you were there and you drove down to Canyon Village.

          He is scratching his head.

          Lugnutz

          • Lugnutz,

            So, what happened to “And take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk”?

            F is saying that it is too far to walk, that is a pretty good distance. You need something to take you to the TC other than using your two legs.

            It seems that you are ignoring that part of the poem and bypassing the second clue and going right to hob as the second clue. IMO hoB is the third clue.

            CharlieM

    • Lugnutz: so you really see no other way to interpret these sentences than that WWWH is within 500 feet of the chest?

      “There have been a few people within 500 feet. I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.”

      I ask you because it is easy to draw a diagram that puts the chest many, many miles from WWWH and yet have the diagram be in complete agreement with those three sentences.

      • Zap –

        If you only solved the first 2 clues.

        And you were within 500 feet.

        One of the 2 clues is within 500 feet.

        And you say HoB is NOT one of the first 2 clues.

        Not only is one of the first 2 clues within 500 feet.

        But also HoB is within 500 feet.

        I am not interpreting. That is what the man said.

        You don’t want that to be true.

        Simply because your solve requires more distance. IMO

        Lugnutz

        • Again Lug, THAT is YOUR interpretation of what “the man” said. MANY of us do not agree – JMO – JDA

        • Lug…there are a ton of scenarios that I have conjured up that can refute either yours or Zap’s point of view. Truthfully…it is up to each searcher to work through the poem and decipher what the clues mean. My point of putting up the original post was to bring it to everyone’s attention that there is a ton of info out there that can be interpreted every which way under the sun…once again.
          Without looking for the clippings on the floor of the studio where the video was edited and smashed together, it is nearly impossible to REALLY say for sure what the context was in that segment with Fenn saying what he did. That said…it could go either way. It’s a heart stopper though! Bon appetite ! And…go with your gut.

          • Oh…and maybe Dal could rekindle that contact and see what’s left of the original?? Not very likely…

        • JDA I am not interpreting anything. I am listening. Too hard interpreting.

          Ken –

          He said that in 2103. If he said it in 2018 and had time to plan a response we could look for meaning.

          I think he meant exactly what he said. People had solved 2 clues and been within 500 feet.

          2013

          Zap and JDA, as you say, are free to look at it differently. I am just pointing out why they are doing it.

          Lugnutz

          • That is one of the reasons why I won’t completely discount that video clip Lug. The early responses from Fenn were less pressured and I feel he was more “free” with his words.
            On the other hand…a fully solved(up to retrieval) poem will tell the full story without trepidation. There will be no false interpretations…or bravado involved.

          • Ken

            He spoke clearly back then.

            We agree.

            If by read everything from before the date of that interview and never read anything new it may lead to a different way of reading the poem.

            There wasn’t any gotcha, there had been a lot if scrapbooks. It simplifies.

            Lugnutz

          • Lug…I’ve been on this angle since a couple of months before the EEgg days…Patagonia, Willy post.
            Let’s just say that there is a way to do this…that makes complete sense.
            It has everything to do with WHERE Fenn would park his car. And it’s not in Denver….

          • Lug. So what you’re kind of saying is that the treasure is within 500 ft of WWWH? If that’s the case why the 9 clues? Mr Fenn could have done it in 3 clues.

            Begin-WWWH
            Middle-Find the Blaze
            End-Take the Chest

            This is only an interpretation BECAUSE Mr Fenn has not told us the Original/Only all 9 clues. He hasn’t confirmed anything as far as (Numbering) the Clues.

            Are you ignoring the fact that the poem is long and full of words that might give locations, directions and distances? The poem is full of those for a reason

        • Lugnutz,

          “If you only solved the first 2 clues.
          And you were within 500 feet.
          One of the 2 clues is within 500 feet.”

          This is where you are reaching an invalid conclusion IMO. He said searchers/people were within 200 feet and 500 feet–not that one of the first two clues is within that distance.

          People could have figured out the first two clues, passed them and traveled a significant additional distance before passing within 200/500 feet of the chest. They could have passed right by later clues and not even known it.

          Just because he stated two, three, or four clues may have been solved and people passed within 200/500 feet, that does not require any of those to be within that distance–it just means people continued to move in the correct direction after passing the geographic locations those clues refer to.

          If traveling down a road, following a path, or moving through a canyon, is it not reasonable for someone to move closer and then pass right by? They correctly identified the first two clues but then passed right by the treasure, not knowing they had been so close.

          • Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close.

            There have been some who have been within 500 feet because they have told me where they have been.  Others have figured the first two clues and went right past the treasure and didn’t know it.

            There are several people that have deciphered the first two clues. I don’t think they knew it, because they walked right on past the treasure chest.

            Searcher were the ones within 200′ add first two clues deciphered and those searcher unfortunately walked passed the chest [http://www.koat.com/news/man-says-poem-will-lead-hunters-to-treasure/32606038]

            …sure, I mean, people figured the first couple clues and unfortunately walked past the chest

            Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking.

            Who else knows where the treasure is buried?
            I never said it was buried. I’ve avoided that word. I hid it. I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t buried. I just didn’t want to give that as a clue. It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know.

            “The Lure” post-screening Q&A video
            Q: “How do you know searchers have been within 200 feet of the treasure?”
            A: “Well, because there … people have told me exactly where they were, and that’s the only reason I know. And, and, that 200 feet I think is pretty accurate. But there weren’t very many people within 200 … lots of people within 500 feet of the treasure. But, uh, the people that were with(in) 200 feet didn’t know that they were that close to the treasure, and they walked right on by. And of course I would never tell ‘em that, ‘cuz they’d, uh, they’d try to remember where they had been.”

            There have been a few people within 500′. I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.

            …I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.f

          • Seeker

            Can you walk me through that again. I may missed something.

            But are we actually walking?

          • Kira,
            These are just some of many comments [in part] fenn as spoken about in regards to actions he did to hide the chest, and searchers while in search mode…

            These are not complete comments [ that’s why I didn’t place quotations ] they are parts of interview, book signings, Q&A’s etc…. I did leave any comment of my thoughts… this was more for others to have some part of all those ATF to look them up themselves and come up with their own idea of walking vs. alternative modes of transportation between clues.

            To answer your inquiry; I think walking / hiking gets you from wherever you can park, to all the clues… no other means of transportation is needed.

            But, in all honesty, because there is always wiggle room for thoughts… there could be something on site we need to utilize. A train ride, a sky tram, a boat tour, etc. But personally, I highly doubt that… imo the clue references, and how to get to them, should last many hundreds of years… the above alternative examples could be gone tomorrow or already gone as we speak, IF used back in 2009 or 10 by fenn. Even the thought… the area fenn parked when he hid the chest could not longer be a place we can park today.

            Hence IMO, fenn’s waning searchers to be able to walk several hours to their “solve” twice or don’t go…
            Solve ; in my mind means; a completed deciphering of 9 clues from clue 1 to the chest, one way.

            There’s enough info in the post above that can be searchable and get you to all the info, in each ATF… I hope that help to explain the post.

          • Seeker

            We need to walk through this together, you seemed to have passed by what I was saying

          • Kira ~ you asked ‘But are we actually walking?’
            My short answers is yes… the questions that still remain are; how many physical place are there, how far apart are they, and how far do we walk to get to the locations of the clues, before we even start on the clues.

            Many like the idea; we park or drive right up to wwwh or past by that clue and go/drive to later clue. I simply think fenn’s walked from his car/parking and walked to the location of all the clues, which imo is a very small location [ the clues themselves, not the walk to get there] and possibly all the clues within a 1000′ area. BUT, that doesn’t say there’s the possibility that 7-8 of the clues could be very close and the blaze and/or chest location be a bit farther [ but not by much ]. Feen did say it you can find the blaze, the distance to the chest would be obvious. LOL that still could be 10′ or 100’… we just don’t know yet… or at least, I don’t know.

            How much walking we might need to do at the location of the clues’??? totally a guess… it really depends on the lay out of the clues and IF theres’ a need to utilized them in any shape or form… it fall down to perception, really… If you think a canyon must be traveled, then the perception of that solve will be much larger.

            If that doesn’t explain my thoughts, could you explain what your asking about “are we actually walking?”

          • Seeker

            There is no evidence of this. As you pointed out when Fenn is asked after its found… how is this possible from your comments. And he would answer do you not know what walk means?

            To entertain your thiught though is perhaps these teams stopped at what they believed to be hob and was wrong. They got out and walked to erroneous clue points after.
            So to balance Fenn statement these searchers either a. Went too far or b. Not far enough, when they took it in the canyon.

            Simple explanation to match Fenn comment, or he was being figuratuve in them walking. This does explain why they only solved the 1st 2 clues. Simply, they parked at the wrong spot and didnt see Brown.

          • Kira ~ ‘There is no evidence of this. As you pointed out when Fenn is asked after its found… how is this possible from your comments. And he would answer do you not know what walk means?’

            Now, I’m confused… evidence of what -?- exactly.
            And i don’t think i said anything about ‘after it’s been found’

            as far as searcher doing A or B in your example… I can only refer to this Q&A as a thought of what or what shouldn’t be done, as the way I see the process unfolding;

            “Who else knows where the treasure is buried?”
            “I never said it was buried. I’ve avoided that word. I hid it. I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t buried. I just didn’t want to give that as a clue. It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. ***And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again.*** As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know.”

            Some will say this only relates to Randy, when he went missing… other will say this means fenn could or had to drive into canyon etc. I ‘personally’ see this part of the total answer to be a message and was not provoked by the question, but volunteered by fenn… don’t go in the canyon.

            You may think differently, but think this falls in line with fenn telling the chief of police who wanted this hunt to stop… he’ll give clues regarding safety, but will not stop the hunt. And since them we have had additional clues or what I call pieces of information; the chest is not underwater nor is it near the Rio Grande River, the chest is more than 8.25 miles N. of the “northern limits” of Santa Fe, New Mexico, etc…

            I also can see the poem as read; you are at wwwh you look down the canyon, you observe many HLnWH, but the one you want is below the hoB… So from the hoB the end of HLnWH draws back to www’halt’ and the location your standing… So IF you have been wise… and not found the blaze might be closer than you original thought [ instead of going into a canyon up and down 4 times ]… Look quickly down.

            Again, it’s all about perception, and the wording in the poem read with just a slight ‘adjustment’ to words usages.. in plain English..

        • If I may but in, when people are searching and do not have all the clues deciphered, they wander around. Those who had the first 2 clues figured out and were within 500/200 ft. could have wandered around and then got close to the chest. Just like Spallies said – anything is possible. The poem is where I derive my solution, not from F’s comments.

      • Lugnutz, you claim (and I quote only for clarity, not to annoy you):

        “If you only solved the first 2 clues.
        And you were within 500 feet.
        One of the 2 clues is within 500 feet.”

        Incorrect. Proof by geometric counterexample: let clue #1 = point A, clue #2 = point B. Draw a 100-mile-long line connecting A to B. Put point T (the treasure) halfway between A and B, but 500 feet off that line. Any searcher going from A to B along that path will come within 500 feet of the treasure, and yet both points A and B are over 50 miles from the treasure. If Fenn knows a searcher has figured out A and B, and there is only one way to get from one to the other, then he knows that searcher has been within 500 feet of the treasure.

        For the record, I don’t think the first two clues are anywhere near 100 miles apart, but there is nothing that Forrest has said that precludes the possibility. And actually, I don’t think the second clue is a point at all. But in any case, you can draw no conclusions from Forrest’s statements about how far home of Brown is from WWWH.

          • Zap…I’ll put this here under JDA to stay close to your comment. Hi JDA.
            Your posit is plausible, assuming the exact nature of clue #2. The poem (properly interpreted) actually does define the parameters of distance if your solution has correctly identified the starting point(clue #1). The folly of your example lies in using #2 as point B. Think about that…I believe you are trying to say that clue #2 is TIITCD NFBTFTW? Why would you put the T @ the halfway point [between] A and B? No comprende.

          • Zap…I did not pay attention to the word “Incorrect”. Your example is of Lug’s premise…ha ha
            My opinion of the poem (correctly deciphered) defining distance still stands. Also…clue #2 is a point where it meets #3…technically.

        • Zap, for debate purpose.. can’t you come up with a better example, than having half the nation going by the chest [ in 500 ] by separating the first two clues by such a mileage?

          Allow me to enter a hypothetical; Folks are at the first clue [ more than likely the first two clues within their references ] What happens next? Paraphrasing ‘ they left the poem ‘…
          Hypothetically, WhatIF they were not supposed to move at all?
          WhatIF a butterfly is a flutterby and we read the idea of “take it in the canyon down” wrong ~butterfly… when we can read it as “take it in” as a viewing point, a flutterby ,an “observation” we need to plan for… WhatIF the end is not a place we go to, but a place we see that comes “drawing” [pulling] toward wwwh from HLnWH?
          WhatIF we just need to re-adjust the different usages of words in the poem that are in plain English… I hope you understand my “take” on this line of thinking?

          Hypothetical scenario;
          You are at wwwh you view the canyon down… this can be a level area where wwh is, and it is below the hoB… this place’s HLnWH above the waters that halt [ possibly a pooling of the waters and /or change of directions [ a waterfall ]… so this may relate to the end of HLnWH is drawing ever near [pulled by gravity] to wwwh… where we are told the first clue to start at.

          Three location [references], all possibly 500′ near , and at wwwh, all the searchers leave to look for their hopeful, unknown distant clue… walking right pass the remaining clue and the chest. The diference between your scenario and mine is, you force the separation of the first two clue to work when he has comments about that explaining, searcher were at the first to clues and walk past the other clues and the chest… WITH the only reference we know of on… 500′ and later 200’ and later ‘within’ 200 and all or most starting at WWWH for whatever reasoning that brought them there.

          ALL after, your scenario of any major mileage between any clue be it A, B or T doesn’t stand up to the sniff test that fenn said he “walked” twice to the hid from his car and later stated he followed the clues when he hide the chest and in doing so he walked there in every comment to date.

          So I’ll as this old question one last time… why would fenn need to travel back to the first clue if that clues was 50mile away and return in the same car to where he parked for his second trip to the hide? And why would fenn tell us he is not going down and up canyon …? twice… So why would we?

          Where is your planning? your observing and thinking? All the comments above suggest fenn walked, the early searchers walks and in doing so, walked by everything

          End of commentary…

          • “If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck.f“

        • Welcome back, Seeker! You asked if I couldn’t come up with a better example than having so many people coming within 500 feet of the chest. Well, sure I could. 🙂 But I wanted to give a simple, absurd answer that contradicted Lugnutz’s assumption and yet was a perfectly acceptable solution based on everything Forrest has said. (But to be honest, I think over a million people *have* come within 500 feet of the chest since Forrest put it there 7+ years ago, most of whom know nothing of Forrest Fenn.)

          I don’t disagree that your scenario (all the clues close together and all clues walked starting at WWWH) can also work. My only goal (so far unsuccessful) was to get Lugnutz to admit he was wrong to say that the chest MUST be within 500 feet of either WWWH or the second clue. Sure, it ~could~ be. But no way do Forrest’s ATF statements require it.

          “So I’ll as this old question one last time… why would fenn need to travel back to the first clue if that clues was 50mile away and return in the same car to where he parked for his second trip to the hide?”

          He wouldn’t. As you must know by now, in my scenario he doesn’t walk all the clues. And there’s nothing wrong with that. Forrest never said he walked all the clues.

          • Playing horseshoe zap said he walk from his car to the clues twice one afternoon and state he followed the clues while doing so, to hide the chest, IF there is lack of mentioning any particular clue the the assumption is all the clues… followed by either directional or by understanding… either case can be debated but the idea is to follow the clues as understood, there would be no reason for nine individual place

            He walks to a single place [ possibly a mile, rinse and repeats finishing task, go back to his car and drives away. In a scenario he walks to wwwh and views the canyon watching the ,,,no place for the meek drawing the water near to www [lest say a large pool of water at the “end’ of a waterfall,, not far but to far to walk is that creek and if one does, the left the poem so all we have is HL nWH and it relates to wwwh at the bottom of the falls Contiguous, touching. this has a searcher at the bootom of the falls and the entry wwwh… no one has moved an inch from the first clue because all the clue seem to flow toward it…. a 500′ location of all the clues, right?

            So when folks started moving away, from clue one, they left the poem an the chest behind.
            Which scenario might be more accurate? Observing the place we stand at or move on passing everything?

            It’s up to all how they want to read the poem… my job i to understand how fenn created a blueprint on a location we can build off if… “marry the clueS to A place on a map” not places and not many maps… if you have the right map with the details.

            I put up comments relating to this topic that seem to imply a contiguous set of clues revolving around each other in a geographical style… places that can work without the others… but I only count four physical geographical types the blend into within the poem. The only travel necessary is two trip from the parked car… a car that doesn’t move until the solve is completed. Any other mode of transportation will eliminate the need for two trips because of weight and fenn said if we can’t walk several hour to our solves [ completed task ] twice, don’t go…. there is no mention of alternative transportation nor a distance because of one

            It’s all, or most of it , for you to read for your self above @ 6:13 time mark

          • Evening, Seeker. Let me ask one more time, because any future exchanges with you hinge on your answer. Will you return the favor of conceding that my explanation is at least logically possible (based on the entire volume of Forrest’s ATF remarks). Specifically, that there is no requirement for the chest to be within 500 feet of WWWH. I’m not asking that much. I’m not asking you to say my opinion is right, or even most likely. I’m only asking you to admit it’s possible, just as I freely admitted that your view that all the clues are either tightly bunched together or even describing the same thing is possible. If you are unwilling to concede that, then all future debate is pointless.

          • Can I answer for seeker? Because anything is possible so the chest could be within 500 feet of WWWH.

          • Spallies: if you’re answering for Seeker, then I don’t understand your answer. I want Seeker to concede that **NO** maximum distance requirement has been established between WWWH and the chest.

          • Sorry Zap, I was just trying to say anything is possible… I just wanted to establish that… 🙂

          • Zaphod73491 “But to be honest, I think over a million people *have* come within 500 feet of the chest since Forrest put it there 7+ years ago”

            this comment has to be a joke

          • Why Chris,
            If he hid it in a touristy location such as YS, then, well they get lots of visitors and the number would be high. If he hid it is elsewhere, then yes its absurd, but whichbis true, with true being the key word.

          • Understood and no problem, Spallies, and I agree with the spirit of your post. But I doubt Seeker will.

          • Zap,
            Without facts, anything is possible… But, we’re the one who are suposed figure out what the facts are… lol fenn isn’t going to tell us everything…

            My theory, posted many moons, ago about how none of the clues need to stomped out gave the same idea as you are attempting about some of the clues. Many if not most searchers have looked into ever possible scenario, in the hope, to understand the poem the way fenn see it and intended.
            With that said; if you take all of fenn’s ATF [ Q&A, interviews etc.] the trend is; searcher walked the clues… fenn walked the clue [ see many of the examples of quotes above on March 17, 2018 at 6:13 pm said ].

            Can you disagree with the thought that there might only be only two or three [but no more than three] places we need to move to [regardless of any distance]?
            IF all your going to do is use words in the poem to be what you want them to be, such as “take it in the canyon down” as a physical movement, be it walking or driving or hang gliding, you automatically eliminate “take it in” as a view.
            IF all your going to do is use “drawing nigh” to mean “your” physical movement from a point to point, you automatically loss the idea that something else [ water ] is moving toward you from the “end” of where you may have view it from WWW.

            Your theory, is not unlike many, who can only imagine that we must move to 9 different location and force any unknown distance to do so, or make up a different mode of transportation. The problem I see in your theory/thoughts is one word that you seem to want hang on to… fenn never saying “all” the clues.
            Well, In my mind [ when reading as many ATF as I could find ]… the words “the” “clues” folks figured out the first couple of clues”..and.. “walked past” “went by” the remaining clues… and his own action of him “walking” twice to the hide, and telling us he followed the “clues” “in” the poem… tells me there is not, nor ever was, the idea of a different mode of transportation other than walking, for any clue.

            Now think of this… until fenn told us he used his vehicle to go hide the trove, scenario after scenario had horse, quad, plane, another person to drive him etc etc. Now, even after he has stated he followed the “clues” and “walked” less than a few miles twice from his vehicle in one afternoon and tells us we should be able to “walk” several hours “to our solve,” twice… [ note solve should relate to a complete task ].

            You still hang on to that single thought fenn should have used the word “all” the clues.

            So with this line of thinking… when fenn says to follow the “clues” in the poem, because he didn’t say “all” the clues, we can skip a couple?

            I won’t get into the idea that millions could have been 500′ from the trove… But I’ll remind you that fenn said the chest s not in very close proximity to a human trail… a place, he originally want to be, his eternal resting place of his bone… ?millions? @ 500′ from the chest? Sure, why not…

          • Nice post Seeker! Good to see you back and willing to share your views. I have missed your input. I still hold my view that one can drive from wwwh to the “end”, and walk from there – two trips in one afternoon. If I were younger, I guess I COULD walk them all, and it certainly would be a nice walk, but, for me, a walk or hike or stomp of a bit over twenty miles is a bit “too far to walk”. JMO – JDA

          • Zap and Ken and Seeker –

            I am listening to Fenn in that video.

            To me, the only way that people who solved ONLY the first two clues were not ALSO within 500 feet is if the interviewer asked:

            Can you quickly summarize how many clues have been solved and also say how close searchers have been and even those these two thoughts are not connected will you please speak all at once so that they appear to be connected? Thanks!

            Sure that’s my opinion dudes. I am just telling you that I cannot see the way out of it.

            Zap if what you want is for me to concede that what Fenn said doesn’t mean what he said so that you can maintain your driving scenario, you have that above.

            lugnutz

          • Well, Hey,
            Maybe “Not far, but too far to walk” means 500′
            That’s a heck of a stretch.

            To me it means any other type of movement other than walking.
            I’ll use a sedan.

          • Lugnutz…keep thinking man!
            There is a way to actually make what Fenn said true…without twisting or making up any alternate questions…
            Are you searching this year?

          • Hi Chris Yates: no, not a joke. Well, actually in a way it is: it’s Forrest’s joke on the world putting the treasure chest so close to under their noses. Outrageous! No wonder he was smiling all the way back to his car. 😉

      • Hey Rich…I read that one when it came up. Good thoughts…but Fenn rarely worries about proper grammar or punctuation in his communications…especially live ones. In fact…he has made many comments in that regard.
        Thanks for sharing that here at Dal’s for others to see.

        • Hi Ken,

          he may not be big on grammar but he’s big on definitions and usage of words (including conjunctions) something to think about

          • Ah, the noble, overlooked, misunderstood apostrophe. A guy like Forrest could have a lot of fun…
            DZ

  59. Charlie M

    No place to punch in a comment above, hope you see this.

    To me, Forrest uses Too Far To Walk as a euphemism. It means something he doesn’t want to do.

    Like, I am supposed to get a new drivers license at 90 but it’s too far to walk.

    That’s an interpretation by me. Looking at it that way removes the distance and, super important, the direction. To me the clues are descriptions of places, and NOT directions to follow.

    Why don’t you try that one time. Don’t go down. Don’t go far. Don’t put in. Nothing is below. The end is not nigh The creek is not up. The water is not high. The blaze is not “found”. Nothing shall cease.

    What do you have to lose by doing an exercise to look at the nine clues as descriptions instead of directions?

    Lugnutz

    • Lugnutz,

      So your saying that 500′ was too far for f to walk, but f himself said, (paraphrasing) that 10 miles is too far to walk. That’s a whole lot more than 500′ I don’t honestly believe that f wasn’t able enough or not willing to walk 200′ at the least & 500′ at the most.

      Remember the poem is a map, maps give you direction don’t they? IMO you have to follow directions to get where your going.

      Too each their own 🙂
      I interpret things way different.

      CharlieM

      • The only relevance I give this statement is that Forrest was trying to keep people engaged and excited.

        My take on his 200-foot comment is that the treasure lies about 200 ft from The Blaze..

        • morecowbell,

          And the likely hood that 200′ may not be the distance from the blaze to the TC. It could have been, let’s say 400′ from the blaze. The 200′ is the nearest distance from the TC only, IMO.

          • I think many have unknowingly been at the blaze but didn’t realize it. No way Forrest admits that but that is my belief. The difficult part is getting from blaze to tc imo.

          • mocowbell-
            IMO… Many people have been in the vicinity of the blaze, and some may have been within 50′. But to my knowledge, no one but the deputy and I have been there ( in ten years) and seen it firsthand. You see… the blaze is concealed and most walk right past it without knowing. Those that have come closest to it are fishermen. There may have been one searcher, but Elly (our dog, pitbull mix) scared him off. She does security for us.
            All IMO.. Best to you…

            Billy

          • lol. Good luck to you too Billy. Hoping for warm weather to get the snow off. Feeling a bit impatient lately.

  60. Below is my opinion on FF’s quote,
    “What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the “water high” when I am through with it? ”

    Dictionary lingo. One needs a good old dictionary. The newer ones do not have origins of the words in them and the internet is not as helpful.

    The word riding is a form of ride. Ride is “An excursion or journey by any means of conveyance”. Old english or germanic of reidh.
    Bike is a form of bicycle. Bicycle (kwel) is old english and germanic as well. It means “that on which the head turns”. Would this be a body?Could this mean that Forrest would drive out there and throw himself in “water high”. Not literally ride a bike to the spot.

    Ride and bicycle are Proto-Indo Euopean words with origins in Europe.
    I believe Forrest uses PIE words to their literal meanings when writing so as to not give away too much. After all he is an archaeologist and historian.
    He said the one who finds the TC would have studied the poem over and over. The poem is an easy read and not too complicated on the surface, so why the need to study it over and over? But after you break down the words to their origins it becomes more clear in the meanings….at least to me. That is why I believe the need to study each and every word to understand the origins. Almost every word in the poem has a PIE origin.
    “Meek” for instance means slippery. No place for the slippery? To me this means wear waders because you will have to be in the water at some point. Anyone who has fished in a stream/river/creek knows how hard it is to walk on the river rocks without waders. The rocks are too slippery and there is a good chance you might sprain an ankle. Especially carrying a heavy chest. You need the proper footwear.
    I believe that Forrest is a wordsmith by nature. Very clever in his wording. When discussing the Chase he thoughtfully thinks of the word usage/origins before speaking or writing.
    Just my two cents worth. Hope this can be of help to someone.

    • Tar….

      Yes!!! emphatically yes! Two or three times f has said something like I don’t think people know the definitions or origins of words we use.
      That….IMO… is a clue that has been the most help.

      By the way, to get to the blaze, you must wade across the creek. For safety, when walking in a creek or river always walk up stream. That way you can’t “step” into a hole. Walking downstream, you can step into a sudden drop (hole) and lose your footing…a potential disaster. IMO

    • Word origins such as “tarry”:

      1275–1325; Middle English taryen to delay, tary a delay, of uncertain orig.

  61. Morning Seeker…I liked your initial return post emphasizing some of Fenn’s comments about how close folks have been to the treasure. You are more patient than I am putting them out there time and again. It does keep it fresh though.

    • I’m completely lost like everyone else, ken. I only admit it…

      I have two goals or thought processes i’m attempting [beside clearing my head of all my other thought processed ~ I guess you can call that the “adjusting” part]
      1. attempt to make all the information fenn has mentioned in the ATF to be true to each, even if they seem to conflict. And there are many comments that seem to do that… at first.
      2. understand how the hints ‘help’ with the “clues”… note; clues as in ‘all’ the clues… as in; certainty of the location, beforehand.

      For example; how can… not get closer than the first two clues, ring true to, solving the clues references at home and still have certainty of the location for the correct path, in theory, and yet ‘need’ to be on site from approx clue 2 on?

      The hints in the book help with the clues, idea, being “all” the clues [ location, of the path, beforehand ]… but the clues in the poem lead to the chest, but the clues can only do that IF we “know where to start”… IMO… knowing “where to start” is not the same as WWWh being the first clue… WWH is just the first clue of the 9 we need to “decipher”

      While I still think of what wwwh could “refer” to, and all the clues, even IF I got that right… I still need to know where, in all of the RM’s they are at. Other wise, even IF I had the correct wwwh, I’d still would be throwing darts from state to state, at all of the many location over the entire ranch. I ain’t doing that either.

      To simplify all that… clues get me to the hidey spot, hints only get me to the clues, line of thinking.
      “All the information you need to “find” the “chest” is in the poem” right?
      Where is the info that finds the clues -?- when there are many wwwh and millions of blazes and just as many HL n WH… canyons, creeks…

      Sure, sure, we need to “dwell” on the first clue [to solve the poem’s challenge]… I’m only attempting, at the moment, to find where its dwelling is.

      LOL… I’m not concentrating on WWWH to get this all kicked-off [realistically, that is an impossible task]…. I’m looking for the location… yet, I’m still sitting here chatting to you… Soooo !?!

      • I get it man ! This treasure hunting business is taxing! But this one is VERY different than just heading out with a metal detector somewhere.
        Mid- year last, I circular filed everything(almost) and started fresh. I did this after finding that 2013 video that was posted in 2015. Funny how that one got past everyone…I remember it from then but did not pay attention at the time. Folks still want to dismiss it…oh well.
        Cynthia has a new clue/hint posting 3/17/18 with answered question from Fenn on her blog.
        Two things….
        Is the poem’s current design compatible with Fenn carrying out his original plan?
        If so, then I would believe it nearly impossible for wwh(clue #1) to be near clue #3 and still allow Fenn to evade being found by parking that close.
        Nice seeing you post….

        • Ken ~’I remember it from then but did not pay attention at the time.’

          I think this is a major problem with many of the comments we read… as you said this was a posted video [ here on the blog ] from 2013… and now we have many many ATF comments relating to that. It’s difficult to keep up with it all but, if anyone is attempting to align the ATF, and not just run with one or two… a lot of info is being missed… and that was my point.

          You also said ‘ If so, then I would believe it nearly impossible for wwh(clue #1) to be near clue #3 and still allow Fenn to evade being found by parking that close. ‘

          The idea here is; fenn warning us to be able to walk several hours to out solve, twice. And he walked less than a few Miles.
          I contend that we walk a pretty good distance from that parking location… he park at… before we get to clue 1 and the rest of the clues. { estimated… up to 1 mile, one way } And this would help with the clues possibly being close or even as one [ in relationship to each-other ] and still be far enough of the beaten track from any available parking area. So, it can work.

          We also neglect that fenn would know this area like the back of his hand… he never thought of any other place… there is nothing eliminating a partial 4 wheeling over a field or open wooded area for fenn to get closer than we think… not unlike his family driving a 1935 Plymouth into the woods to store their summer supplies [ in YS ] so they didn’t have to haul it back to TX.

          There is a Q&A that is asking about transportation [ you’d have to look for it ] that IMO seems to relate… if I have time later I’ll look for it… it might be a good conversation kicker … inline with what we’re chatting about.

          • To be honest…I wasn’t going to even share that video find…and didn’t for quite some time. But, I did the right thing and put it out for everyone to decide for themselves. Some will pay attention…and some won’t.
            The real early stuff from Fenn is gold…not as guarded/preplanned…and lots of it still not discussed.
            I believe there is a stark difference between searchers deciphering/ acting out the clues…and Fenn actually just doing the deed short of actually staying there to die. Because of this I believe it has limited searcher’s abilities to actually “plan” or imagine the whole deed from start to finish…and then skip the part about evading being found. That part is obviously not necessary to find the treasure…at least…not from my stand point at this time.
            Personally…I do not think Fenn could venture anywhere near a clear answer to any question about “actual walking distance” from his car when he hid the chest, versus how that would play out if he completed the “entire” escapade.

          • There is only one scenario that would actually work in regards to my last sentence…and that’s the dilemma, I believe….

          • Right,
            While we don’t know if “less than a few miles” means one way or both trips… we can, within reason, surmise two scenarios…with miles and the time span of one afternoon [ and not making excuse that two different afternoons are needed, or a vehicle is needed between clues, etc. ] We seemingly have a 6 hour window.

            Without getting into all the math… we have a good idea of distance and time to relate to a plausible solve area. That’s a heck of a lot more than we had from the start… helpful , but yet not fully conclusive.

            So when looking at an area that is viable, if the clues extend pass the most reasonable time and distance [ or max time and distance ] the thought process is more than likely wrong. This should help save a lot of wasted time [and to some, money] instead of dismissing it, and force other variables of unknown, to make something work.

            I’m still looking for that Q&A about transportation, while doing other things… But if i recall part of it correctly… fenn said something like if all that facts were know, we might think it was misleading or had subterfuge or something … I did however come across this one;
            Hi Forrest,
            You once said you walked the 92 miles from West Yellowstone to Bozeman to just experience it. Obviously you were much younger than you were when you hid the treasure. Too far to walk means different things at different ages so I was wondering if you would be so bold as to give an estimate of how far you walked to hide the treasure after leaving your car: was it >10miles, between 5 and 10 miles, between 1 and 5 miles, or less than 1 mile?   ~Thanks, Ron

            Ron, your question sounds like a travelogue, but I’ll answer it. No, I don’t want to be that bold. But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles? f

            So, if fenn is answering this Q&A without subterfuge… the use of “mileS” should be an indicator for a distance, below a ‘few’ whether one or two trips involved.. I lean for two round trips with a twist… does done in one afternoon and less than a few miles imply a two full round trips back to the vehicle or two trips to the hid, with only one trip back to the vehicle to start the second trip with the second part of the trove?

            It only changes the numbers a bit in, out and back in again [ leaving out the last return trip because the task of hiding was actually done at that point ]. But it does give pause to how he can answer truthfully and not give too much away…

          • Why does his use of miles infer more than a mile? That kind of thinking seems forced, considering Fenn’s recent quote,
            “I don’t know I could physically get it. I’m not as agile as I once was. When I walk 50 yards, I have to sit down.”

          • The transportation Q was from Edgar…3/2/15
            were all the evidence known
            quibbling
            prevaricating
            This is one of the dandies that can help someone if they take a couple of chances with what to pay attention to. I believe Fenn is really trying to be as truthful as he can…and yet is limited because of the wording in the question.
            Another recent one that I think folks are not taking the right chances with is the “road trips” post over @ MW….
            I think the easiest take away is just how they traveled…stops, taking turns in the middle and so on.

          • 9=9
            There’s two main reason… one is the use of “few”… no matter how you look at the comment, “few” means two or more, but not much more. When you add the word “mileS” it offers a standard distance of 5280 feet. It the distances can not be less than at or the use of mile{s} would be incorrect by anyone standards. fenn use plural that seems to indicate the same thought of over one mile at least… but we still don’t truly know if that was for the total 2 round trips, or one way of two trips to the hid to complete the hiding of the chest and contents…

            IF his use of “miles” refers to less than a single mile… imo that would be a deliberate misleading. fenn has made this point very clear… he would not lead anyone toward or away from the location. Also remember, fenn chose to relay this Q&A to the public / search community. He could have just skipped it or sent it to the questioner without a public viewing, right?

            He also could have answer in a manner that gave no perspective of feet or mile or miles, [ like he has with other answer , example which way does the blaze point NSEW? none of those….] but he chosed to indicate a multiple mile answer, And later, tells use to be able to “walk” several hours to our solve.

            What do you think the comment means and why?

          • Ken, that was the question I was referring to… thanks.
            Yep, it is an interesting answer and agree that fenn answered it in relationship to how it was asked… like he seems to with all Q&A’s and even told the kids/classroom the same when he answered their questions.

            Sometimes it’s more important how the question was presented than the answer given.

          • Seeker;

            My guess is that He is saying that the distance from the parking spot to the treasure = a bit more than 1/2 mile – therefore one full trip = say, close to 1 and 1/2 miles – two trips = about 3 miles.

            3 miles in one afternoon seems about right + time to secret Indulgence and have a sandwich and a Grape HeHi 🙂

            Just my guess – JDA

          • Seeker, I think Forrest’s only reason for mentioning walking distances/times was for safety. As such, he would only want to provide the minimum information that would keep folks out of trouble; his goal wasn’t to provide a clue about how near or how far he traveled from his car to the chest’s location. He’s trying to prevent logic-challenged searchers from hiking 4 miles one-way into the wilderness and gaining 2000 feet of elevation in the process.

            When he wrote “I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help,” he is not saying the searcher MUST walk more than a mile. That is an erroneous conclusion that disregards his sole reason for saying anything about the distance: SAFETY.

            Face it: if you only had to walk 200 feet from the car to the chest’s location, do you think Forrest would have said “I walked less than several hundred feet if that will help”? Of course not, because that would be a gigantic clue. Conversely, he could have said, “I walked less than 20 miles if that will help,” but then people would have been getting themselves into even more misadventures. Instead, he chose a distance that was far enough away to be unhelpful in solving the clues, but close enough that it would hopefully curtail some of the more ridiculous solutions that searchers have come up with.

  62. Seeker,
    Seeker’s quote to Zap, “…you force the separation of the first two clue to work when he has comments about that explaining, searcher were at the first to clues and walk past the other clues and the chest”

    Are you not also “force fitting” this “walk” thing to your “all clues are at one place” theory? Fenn has been so elusive about giving specific information away and has only done so when forced by safety or field levelling. Do you think he is just going to give away the farm by repeating this “walk by” term? It doesn’t fit his pattern. Have you ever considered this is a puzzle, something to solve and we should not think like he suggests us to think?

    Also I would like your opinion on Fenn’s “gut feeling” the treasure will be found this summer, does this suggest the poem is solved?

    • 9=9,
      I wouldn’t say forcing it… fenn as only mentioned walking and in some cases went by… the thing is he also tells us to be able to “walk” several hours, so I don’t see the idea the clues might be closer than many think is a force fit at all.

      LOL as far as the “gut feeling” fenn talked about… who knows? There are a number of blogs with searchers yacking about a lot of things… fenn talks to searchers in person… he receives many e-mails a day about the challenge, he may know of some or someone that doesn’t even chat on line about the chase… or he reads my posts and is telling me to go get it…

      Yep, let’s go with the last one…. that’s my gut feeling. Or it could be gas.

      • Seeker you say “IF his use of “miles” refers to less than a single mile… imo that would be a deliberate misleading.”

        Really?! This is a treasure hunt! How else do you vaguely tell some desperate treasure hunter hoping to gain some advantage over the lead dog?

        50 yards x 4 is 0.11 mileS. That is plural and it is not misleading.

        Speaking of treasure hunt theme, did you ever consider your interpretation of “walk” is not what Fenn was hinting at? I think Fenn is pretty clever with those quotes, he seemed to have sucked more than one in to interpreting as you have. He must be having a ball back home reading your replies.

        Oh, one last thing, Fenn said the last clue can only be solved on site. Unless you have been on site physically searching, I think the odds of him referring to you are “astronomical”

        • 9equals9,

          Do you remember when ff said that? I’m trying to find the reference.

  63. What if Fenn is using figurative language?

    “Begin it where warm waters halt
    And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.”
    Could mean:
    “Begin where the dead are
    Taken to the deep tomb,
    I have not been far, but now I’m far from there. ”

    “Put in below the home of Brown.”
    Could mean:
    “Go through the graves of ordinary people (Brown).”

    Just an opinion to help think in different ways.

      • Extract of Young Goodman Brown:

        It was now deep dusk in the forest, and deepest in that part of it where these two were journeying. As nearly as could be discerned, the second traveller was about fifty years old, apparently in the same rank of life as Goodman Brown, and bearing a considerable resemblance to him, though perhaps more in expression than features. Still they might have been taken for father and son. And yet, though the elder person was as simply clad as the younger, and as simple in manner too, he had an indescribable air of one who knew the world, and who would not have felt abashed at the governor’s dinner table or in King William’s court, were it possible that his affairs should call him thither. But the only thing about him that could be fixed upon as remarkable was his staff, which bore the likeness of a great black snake, so curiously wrought that it might almost be seen to twist and wriggle itself like a living serpent. This, of course, must have been an ocular deception, assisted by the uncertain light.

        “Come, Goodman Brown,” cried his fellow-traveller, “this is a dull pace for the beginning of a journey. Take my staff, if you are so soon weary.”

        “Friend,” said the other, exchanging his slow pace for a full stop, “having kept covenant by meeting thee here, it is my purpose now to return whence I came. I have scruples touching the matter thou wot’st of.”

        “Sayest thou so?” replied he of the serpent, smiling apart. “Let us walk on, nevertheless, reasoning as we go; and if I convince thee not thou shalt turn back. We are but a little way in the forest yet.”

        “Too far! too far!” exclaimed the goodman, unconsciously resuming his walk. “My father never went into the woods on such an errand, nor his father before him. We have been a race of honest men and good Christians since the days of the martyrs; and shall I be the first of the name of Brown that ever took this path and kept”

  64. Hi Seeker — moving this down below where it won’t be quite so “skinny.”

    “Zap, Without facts, anything is possible… But, we’re the one who are suposed figure out what the facts are… lol fenn isn’t going to tell us everything…”

    Okay, I guess I’ll have to take that as your concession that my interpretation isn’t impossible.

    “With that said; if you take all of fenn’s ATF [ Q&A, interviews etc.] the trend is; searcher walked the clues… fenn walked the clue [ see many of the examples of quotes above on March 17, 2018 at 6:13 pm said ].”

    Our views don’t disagree that much. You believe Fenn walked all the clues; I believe he walked most of them.

    “Can you disagree with the thought that there might only be only two or three [but no more than three] places we need to move to [regardless of any distance]?”

    Quite possible. Personally, I think there is only one place we *need* to move to: the blaze. You choose to start your foot journey at WWWH; the only difference is that I start mine after I have put in below the home of Brown.

    You mention again your alternate view of “Take it in”: basically absorb the view as opposed to transporting yourself down some canyon. It’s a viable alternative, but is it a “straight forward” reading of the poem? Let’s add some punctuation (DANGER: messing with the poem!) to more clearly force your interpretation:

    Begin it where warm waters halt,
    And take it in: the canyon down — not far, but too far to walk.

    So far so good, if a bit clunky. You’re at WWWH, you see a canyon, you see it goes a long way down — further than you would want to walk, and certainly further than you would want to walk twice with 20+ lbs. on your back. But now you’ve got a poem problem that I don’t see a way out of:

    “Put in below the home of Brown.”

    Unlike “take it in,” there is no getting around that “Put in” describes physical action involving motion that you must take. Therefore, home of Brown must be quite close to where you are standing (WWWH), in which case I would find myself asking, “Well what’s the point of mentioning anything about the canyon down? Home of Brown is right here; the canyon would seem to be irrelevant.”

    This is the point to bring up one of Forrest’s rather important ATF quotes: “I have always said the poem will lead you to the treasure if you have the right map and know where to start. It is straight forward so there is no need to over-think it or look for commas and misspellings as clues. It was not written with the idea of fooling anyone.”

    By leaving out the colon after “Take it in,” if your interpretation is the correct one, I think you would have to say that Forrest is being deceptive with the poem and certainly far from straightforward. A normal, simpler reading of the poem is that “Take it in the canyon down” is an instruction to physically move down the canyon. And the simplest reading of the following line is that the distance is not particularly far, but far enough that you don’t want to walk it. I think your biggest objection to this is that it means you will not walk all the clues, which I know you find objectionable. But which is the more objectionable: introducing deception in the proper reading of the poem, or strict adherence to ATF comments describing what other searchers did who solved the first two clues? And before you answer, how do you know that driving wasn’t involved getting from clue #1 to clue #2, and that walking or going past clues 3-9 came subsequent to clue #2? Forrest doesn’t talk about searchers solving one clue and walking past all the other clues. He says two clues. Do his ATFs preclude driving from clue #1 toward clue #2?

    • There’s our differences Zap… you see take it in and put in, in the simplest manner possible, but kinda dismiss the idea of the adjustment video as possible, or even plain English for thoses. I mean fenn said the poem was difficult but not impossible… could that in part mean the way we read it? I’m sure he didn’t want to say outright… Look in the canyon down, or that below home of Brown could be the example I said to Kira above [ summering ] standing at wwwh you look into the canyon and there you might see many references to HL n WH, but the one your looking for is Blow the hoB that lead that ‘water’ back to you, as you observe it’s course… now your through the poem to the point of “if you’ve been wise” and the blaze is closer than you could imagine [ thinking of the poem in your manner ]…

      Now while I said, because we don’t have fact… that’s our job to figure the facts out… even though your theory could be possible… imo… reading the ATF… and relating them to the poem, It’s highly unlikely. I know you said you were going to look this spring or so. I would truly like to know [ when you get back ] where this location in your theory is… I am curious.

    • Zap,
      I’d like to point out that the source of “this rather important quote” you mention came from CC and Mindy so it’s not a direct Fenn quote …it’s second-hand and/or hearsay. IMO

      I admit that it sounds like something f would have said, but I’d still be cautious about using it since the source is suspect…. IMO.

      Just sayin….we have a lot of trouble around here with these thing’s becoming fact when they aren’t or may not be.

      • Thanks for putting that out there before I tried tracking that one down…saved me the trouble.
        Never seen that one for sure.

      • Question posted 6/28/2014:

        “Is the map that needs to be used to discover where warm waters halt found online or in paper form? or both?” ~mdc777

        C’mon now agent 777, a map is a map. The more detailed maps are most useful if you have the right map, but I’m not sure I needed to tell you that.f

        • I think we’re talking about the one …I have always said the poem….
          Thanks pdenver, you did good.

      • Good point, Colokid: it isn’t fully vetted information. At the time of the alleged email receipt, I don’t think Mindy would have had any motive to lie about it, just as Cynthia has no motive to lie about Forrest telling her that home of Brown isn’t associated with a structure. But it isn’t right from the horse’s mouth, so I don’t hang my hat on it. It’s probably legitimate, but I wouldn’t use it to kill a potential solution that seems to conflict with it.

    • Seeker wrote: “There’s our differences Zap… you see take it in and put in, in the simplest manner possible, but kinda dismiss the idea of the adjustment video as possible, or even plain English for thoses.”

      Yes, I believe it’s a straightforward reading with no subterfuge. The backwards-bicycle adjustment video plays an integral part in my solution, both in the determination of WWWH and the interpretation of “Not far, but too far to walk.” The latter in particular is far different from anything that anyone here has ever posted. This, in my opinion, is why the poem is hard: not the parsing of the English in the poem, but the marrying of those sentences to their proper place.

      “I know you said you were going to look this spring or so. I would truly like to know [ when you get back ] where this location in your theory is… I am curious.”

      I’m pretty sure you’d find the location and solution are excellent and original. But I’m having trouble thinking up a scenario under which I could reveal my solution to you (or parts of it), whether right or wrong. If I say in advance I’ll spill the beans about my spot if it turns out to be wrong, then on the off-chance that it turns out to be right, then my sudden silence (followed by a prompt announcement from Forrest) would speak volumes. Maintaining anonymity (from the crazies) under that scenario seems improbable. So at this time it’s more sensible for me to promise nothing. Leaves my options open post-search.

      • After reading this thread. I must say there is some very impressive thought being shared. What came to mind for me was a poem and statement from ff

        Mighty oaks from little acorns slowly grow
        Then finally fall and wisp to naught,
        But those who plant a seed of words
        Live on in groves of human thought. f

        *It seems like the longer one thinks about the search the more they complicate the problem. f

        ~Murmur

  65. Would someone enlighten me on what ATF means? I can’t figure it for the life of me. Thank you for helping.
    Tim

  66. “I have always said the poem will lead you to the treasure if you have the right map and know where to start. It is straight forward so there is no need to over-think it or look for commas and misspellings as clues. It was not written with the idea of fooling anyone.”

    The above statement from F is very true, the one part of his statement should be listened to carefully, ” It is straight forward so there is no need to over-think it or look for commas and misspellings as clues.” I believe most don’t heed this at all and are way over thinking for their solve.

    I don’t care to count the clues, and I personally don’t care how far he walked or rode. Those things are not necessary to have a good solve. F recently said on Feb 14 over at MW, in short, “simplify” yet I feel most still aren’t listening.

    As always my opinion

    • Nice Charlie…good luck this year!
      While walking my dogs in our field I found thirteen or so 4 leafs last season…one fiver ! They seemed to kick me in the shins…too bad the chest wasn’t that easy!

    • No of fence CharlieM
      But what about the first thing fenn told us [ well, one of the first things ]… the poem is difficult but not impossible?
      IF the poem was so straightforwards as you seem to imply, What is warm? What is cold? How do we judge whether it’s a temperature or something to do with comfort or emotion?
      What is not far but too far to walk if we need or don’t need a distance to match it? Why use quickly with down? Is it an action of just a BS filler word?

      It seems to me that folks want it to be much more “simpler” than fenn has stated in the past. We have been told to think, analyze, plan, observe, and ‘imagination’… told it more about thinking than trying… Personally I think fenn’s quote you posted, about over thinking, fall in line with other things he has stated… mainly going out of the box ~ seemingly leaving the poem ~ with other research; codes, Latin, bible verses, or the use of drones etc etc., and this comment, about commas and misspelling of words etc.

      Everyone is looking for WWH because we know we need to nail that down, right? So why did early on searcher, and even recent searchers “deciphered”, “solved”, “figured it out” the first clue, and the next clue as well [ and now possibly the first four clues-?- 1/2 the clues? ] and not know they did?…even when on site and told fenn where they were.
      Does that sound simple?

      I really hope I’m around when to solution is made public, I think many will be a bit put off about how it unfolds. [ that, of course, in my personal opinion ] but we’ll see.

    • Amen CharlieM

      “Simplify if you can. That’s good advice”

      If we have a map, and it is the correct map, then we can locate the TC without circles, hidden numbers and other very complex mechanisms. “No specialized knowledge is required …My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.”

      Franklin

      • Why is that person, “average”? Or in the middle? Is it because clues are spaced out from each other as in near, but far? Only word in poem thats average is warm, between hot and cold.

        • 1st and 2nd clues in perimeter of 200 feet of treasure, f.
          “Home of Brown” a short walk from the treasure, f (ie off the perimeter).
          So the other clues are within that 200 feet perimeter?
          The treasure hunt would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.
          There are hundreds of “Warm Water Halt” out there!
          Did he walk 200 feet into hiding by following these clues?

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