Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Forty Two

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dal…

607 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Forty Two

  1. “‘One side will make you grow taller, and the other side will make you grow shorter.’”

    “….and she at once took up the little golden key and hurried off to the garden door.”

    Merry Christmas one and all!

  2. Merry Christmas Mr Fenn, family, and to all.

    And to those who share the day
    Happy Birthday. ( I do )

  3. I agree, I think he cares more about someone solving his poem, than finding the chest. He could have just gone and hid the chest, written the book, and never said another word about it. It’s the human connection that he craves.

  4. Merry Christmas/Happy Holidays everyone and many thanks again to Dal and Mr. Goofy for hosting this wonderul forum.

    • Thank you too Lisa. I wish I had your research skills, an apparently speed-reading skills.
      I thought Ambrose’ quote was a subtle tribute to Rhonda, The phrase itself adds no topical content to the story except in that ‘other dimension’ Fenn keeps mentioning…. where comprehension & beauty & humor exist. I imagine the phrase struck Fenn that way too, and his use of it was likewise a tribute to Peggy. Sort of an ‘inside joke’. I really find the ‘architecture’ of the book fascinating,

      • Maybe Sacagawea is another “illustration of why we don’t need an equal rights amendment in this country” LOL. That would be the 4th, by my preliminary count.

        • I disagree, but maybe your ‘lol’ indicates irony. Sacajawae and York were both slaves ….

          Had the ERA been ratified in the 70’s, (or even better, in the 1920’s) there would be a tried and tested body of civil law in effect today, that ‘long arc’ thing (recent history noted). Funny, those who fear/deny universal equality often celebrate the heroic female… the Amelia Earharts, Molly Browns, Pocahontas’. I guess it lightens the chauvinist burden. IMO.

          • OS2 – I’m sorry my comment came across poorly. It was a backdoor reference to the 3 different and very puzzling (to me) occasions that Forrest has used the phrase that I quoted. He told the stories of 3 women – Bella Abzug (TFTW), Diggin Gypsy (in SB 50), and lastly a woman named “Ann” (in a response to her email) all as “an illustration of why we don’t need an equal rights amendment in this country”. Seems curious that Fenn repeated the same phrase at least 3 different times, referring to 3 different women.

            You probably know this but Glenna Goodacre not only designed the Sacajawea coin but also the Women’s Vietnam Memorial – a smaller replica of which is at the Vietnam Veterans Memorial State Park at Angel Fire NM.

            I have wondered if Forrest changed his plan to put the $1000 bill Glenna gave him (that he was originally going to put in the TC) for the far more valuable “Cheerio” or Gold Sacagawea coins in honor of their friendship. Maybe one of each…honoring Glenna and Sacagawea simultaneously.

            Also of note, Lewis and Clark thought so highly of Sacagawea that she was allowed to vote on the L&C Expedition.

            Lastly, I have mentioned before that Sosoko sounds like Sudoku to me…which is solved by determining patterns of 3 (and 9). The Sosoko story was in TFTW, it appeared again as SB 81, then again in OUAW. Is that story telling us to look at patterns of 3?

          • Thanks for you explanation Sandy, I did misinterpret the comment. I find this an awkward forum for real dialog but it is what it is. At one time I was using the latitude of Glenna’s D.C. memorial extended into the Rockies, but lost interest in those long markers. Too many numbers to keep in mind. Sosoko looks to me more like loose socks … on a line, pg 29, and, on a paved road, pg 57. … every thing you brought up just keeps swimming in an ever widening pond of things I should think about more..,,. I am exhausted and overflowing at the same time, and Santa will be here too soon. So, to all, a Good Night.

          • Hi Sandy: since you mentioned SB 81 and the patterns of 3, it’s pretty clear you recognized that 81 = 3^4. 😉

          • Gosh Zap – I appreciate that you think I’m smarter than I actually am…that is a huge compliment from someone whose “hobby” is finding invisible/hidden objects and whose avocation is probably even more complex. My only solace is that I see you and I are interested in and find some of the same patterns.

            Hope you are hitting the slopes somewhere during the holiday season – I think we might even share a favorite ski mountain. I’m working lots of overtime as I await the end of the high pressure system from hell currently plaguing the 4 corners area. By now I usually have 10-15 ski days in and thus far my count is zero. Can’t wait for the Jackson Hole / ProLeisure tour to commence soon. If we can’t search at least we can ski.

            Pray for snow, the good health of all searchers and their families, and a very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year – search season to all.

            PS I’m thinking of changing my name to Sally Colorado.

          • Merry Christmas, Sandy! Life is indeed all about patterns. One pattern I wish would go away is this high pressure *omega* that has been parked over the west for the last 3 or 4 weeks, adding to the desiccation of southern California. Our rain total for the last 6 months stands at 0.24″. NoCal is doing better, but not by much. At least Jackson Hole has gotten 20″ in the last 72 hours, but they are well off their historical base for late December. So, sadly, no — no ski plans any earlier than at least mid-January.

            “I think we might even share a favorite ski mountain.”

            I’ll assume you’re talking JH, which I do love. Mammoth is my “home” mountain, but for the last 5 years I’ve added Jackson as an annual trip. (Too bad downhill skiing and Fenn treasure hunting don’t mix, else I’d try to retrieve the chest some February or March!)

            If you’re a Colorado girl, you’ve sure got a lot of ski options, most of which I’ve never experienced. All I’ve hit are the resorts around Aspen — and I certainly like Snowmass!

  5. merry christmas to everyone,its 23 degrees here in arvada,denver metro area.will have a white christmas.pray for my husband ralph.his cancer has grown,they went up his groin and mapped out the blood vessels,now on dec.27th,he will go in and they will go up that groin and shoot his right side of liver with radiation.to shrink the tumor down.won’t cure it ,but will give him time.the one in the small intestine grew too,but they have to take care of this large one covering his right side of liver.don’t mean to complain,just need prayers from yall.

    • My prayers are with you and your husband Virginia Diane……
      Have a merry Christmas ….
      Until next time… see ya my friend

    • Virginia Diane – Big prayers going up!!!

      And it was 2° last night in Sun Valley, ID. But it will always be worth the cold for me to continue living here…

    • A very Merry Christmas and Happy New Year to you and Ralph, Virginia Diane from Sam and Teresa…

      On a side note, research some on Alkaline Diet…Most human bodies are normally acidic in nature due to sugar intake…

      Encouraging reports from around the world indicate altering body chemistry from acidic to slightly alkaline through diet can kill cancer cells naturally…It doesn’t appear that it requires much of a change either…Worth considering with your hubby’s condition…

      Keeping you guys in our thoughts and prayers…

    • Virginia Diane,

      Going thru serious medical issues at this time of year is especially hard on the immediate family. Your love, willpower, and dedicated support to Ralph will help get him past this tough time. I know it’s hard, but try and be positive.

      We are all thinking and praying for Ralph and for you Virginia too.

      Pinatubocharlie

    • Prayers you have Virginia.

      I’m not far from you (near Boulder). If you want company or coffee as you go through this, please reach out. It would make me happy to be there to just listen, talk, or be silent support.

      Merry Christmas to all.

      Welcome home Forrest, all those years ago. Welcome home.

      • Merry Christmas Virginia Diane and Ralph, you’re in our prayers too. It does my heart good to see all of the support here from your
        extended Fenn Family.

    • Hi Virginia Diane, I just wanted to offer my company again. I’ve learned through life that it’s really hard to accept help at times, especially when in turmoil or fear. Please know it would be my treat to meet you and just be present to listen, play cards, enjoy a cup of coffee. I’ve spent much of my son’s 18 years of life in medical scenarios. I’m a mom pro and cheerleader extraordinaire! Dal can give you my personal email if you ever need a friend.

      Happy new year!

  6. I’ve been reading all the good wishes for the Holidays and a good New Year, this makes me very humble and happy. I send out a very special prayer to Virginia, Ralph and family that all goes well this coming year. Happy Holidays to all.

    Food for thought for next year, maybe it’s coincidence, I found a little humor in a clue that has made me chuckle some. It came to me while reciting the poem to myself which pertains to my solve. I wouldn’t put it past F to interject good humor.

    Happy Holidays, and a best New Year. 🙂

  7. I’ve been reading all the good wishes for the Holidays and a good New Year, this makes me very humble and happy. I send out a very special prayer to Virginia, Ralph and family that all goes well this coming year. Happy Holidays to all.

    Food for thought for next year, maybe it’s coincidence, I found a little humor in a clue that has made me chuckle some. It came to me while reciting the poem to myself which pertains to my solve. I wouldn’t put it past F to interject good humor.

    Happy Holidays, and a best New Year.

    Sorry for the second post as I didn’t put in the right email. 🙂

  8. Virginia and family – God answers prayers – And he is listening to ours keep the faith your husband will be ok — Merry Christmas to all –frank

  9. Merry Christmas

    Time to slow down,
    And catch up with what matters,
    No presents or things,
    But rather, people and laughter.

    Or if you prefer a quiet get away,
    Then open a book by a fire,
    And remember when…
    Mistletoe dreams danced in your head.

    Cheers

  10. Virginia Diane, may the peace of the Lord be with you, I will pray for you and Ralph and his treatment, the physicians and his speedy recovery.
    TT
    PS MERRY CHRISTMAS TO ALL AND TO ALL A GOOD NIGHT!

  11. I wish you a Merry Christmas,
    I wish you a Merry Christmas,
    I wish you a Merry Christmas,
    And a Happy New Year!

    May 2018 be the one!

    Love y’all xoxox!

  12. Every time a hand reaches out to help another…….
    That is Christmas….
    Merry Christmas and Happy Holidays to you all!

  13. Having a white Christmas here in our little corner of the Rockies.

    Merry Christmas to all and wishes for a wonderful New Year filled with the treasures of Peace and Joy!

  14. Hi Oz10: In Odds n Ends 41, in response to the part of my post where I wrote (of hints/Easter eggs) “Rather, they are subtle references to geographical entities in the immediate vicinity of the search zone,” you wrote:

    “I do have an issue with that and I have explained it before, it comes down to my understanding that hints will help with deciphering the clues, then the clues will take you the location of the chest. I have seen many places and lots of mountains that shared the same names in CO, WY and MT. Still, I am trying to be more flexible on that point and on what a hint could be.”

    If Forrest supplies a hint that can be associated with a relatively common place name that is found in multiple states (and perhaps even multiple places within a state), then I think it’s safe to say that that hint wouldn’t help you. If he were to give hints to two place names that are somewhat near each other, that’s marginally better, but since Forrest writes about so many different things, how would you ever distinguish a hint from a non-hint?

    But suppose he supplied hints to ten different place names that were all within a few miles of one another. That might be a little more interesting. But again, how in the world would you pick out which ten things were hints out of the tens of thousands of Fenn’s words floating out there? You see, it doesn’t work very well in the forward direction.

    But if you first solve WWWH, and then later discover that Forrest has sprinkled hints to ten or more places close by to that WWWH, you can see how such “hints” might help you with your clues in the sense of providing some backup support. Such hints wouldn’t be considered clues by Forrest’s definition since they wouldn’t (independently) take you closer to the chest, and in fact may not even directly reference any of the 9 clues.

    “Back to the backwards, what is all that about??? Is FF just having some fun with his writings? Maybe he is.”

    Forrest has talked about aberrations. Even a “blaze” is an aberration because it is something that stands out. So I tend to sit up in my chair and pay a little closer attention when something “isn’t right” and looks purposeful.

    “I just can’t ignore that in the poem we find the line: There’ll be no paddle up your creek. It has been discussed many times that the saying goes ‘you’re up a creek without a paddle’ and it means that you are in trouble or in a hard spot. Is he hinting to this line and its composition? Should we look into it and THINK and ANALIZE its meaning and different interpretations?”

    It can’t hurt to consider the possibility. But it could also just mean that if, as you follow the clues, you encounter some directional uncertainty, this line tells you to NOT take the fork that takes you up a creek. (Personally, I think the word “your” in this line is the interesting one. It suggests that *you* selected this creek as a consequence of solving a prior clue.)

    The bottom line is that there are a lot of aberrations, and when you consider that Forrest has claimed he does not intentional deceive, mislead, or utilize red herrings, I lean toward those anomalies as containing helpful information.

    • Good thoughts, Zap
      “provide some backup support”
      Interesting idea……
      After solving the poem, if you read Mr. Fenn’s writings, yes, it seems like there might be some support.
      It seems like these “hints” would make you smile and even laugh at the connections.
      Yet, IMO, no hints will get you closer to the treasure.
      The poem gets you to the treasure.

      • I would make one distinction to your following statement, Clearly Clueless…Yet, IMO, no hints will get you closer to the treasure.

        I think searchers need to analyze the part about what’s a hint and what’s a clue a little deeper. You said no hints will get you closer to the treasure. I’d say, closer than what? Where you are now? If you were botg and just happen to be 1000 ft away from the chest and somehow figured out a hint…is that permissible? How would f know how close 100,000 searchers are to the tc?

        There’s a ton of questions that can be asked that would needed to be known to clarify your statement if it’s not thought about in the correct way. To me, the only way to clarify it is to understand that the correct wwwh, or clue 1, is where f said to begin in he poem. Anything before in the poem and including ttotc book is considered a hint.

        So a hint can get you closer to the tc than where you or anyone else lives. A hint in stanza 1 of the poem can get you closer to the tc. A hint just can’t get one closer to the tc than the first clue or any clue after that or it would be called a clue.

        • Why can’t a Hint in stanza #5 or #6 get you closer to the TC if it gets you closer to WWWH?

          As I have stated before, to me, stanza’s 5.6 and 1 contain the “hints” and stanza’s 2,3 and 4 contain the clues. Why isn’t this possible?

          Where does a circle begin? to me the architecture of the poem is a circle, so, for me at least, there is no real “beginning.” So, if I find something like “in the wood” in stanza #6, that leads me to an understanding of where WWWH – “It’s all good” – at least to me .

          If my thinking is flawed, in your estimation, please explain why – JDA

          • Ok, If it’s in the poem it is a clue, right?
            There are 9 clues
            That go to the treasure, right?
            And, there are hints in Mr. Fenn’s other sayings.
            Clues in Book
            Hint sinister places….
            Right?

          • Clearly Clueless: “If it’s in the poem it is a clue, right?”

            No, not necessarily. There is nothing in anything that Forrest has said that precludes hints from also being in the poem. And note that those hints (if there) do not have to be in any particular order relative to the ordering of clues.

          • I believe you are correct JDA. I clues in the poem take you on the path to the treasure, the hints in the poem narrow the area that the treasure is in. The hints elsewhere help with the oath. All in MHO.
            EOG

          • You use the term path to the treasure but I’m curious on everyone’s thought is a path is a human trail?

          • Hi JDA,
            Your last post makes a lot of sense to me. You must be spending less time in that mind-numbing cold water!
            LMN

          • LMN;

            YUP – YUP – Finally came up for air, took a deep breath, and got out of the water – YEA! – JDA

          • JDA, your thinking may not be flawed or it may be. It’s an opinion based answer to your question which I tend to try to stay away from because it’s not very compelling to weigh in on.

            There are tons of things that appear to searchers from the poem that aren’t helpful. I don’t know if what you suggest is one of them.

            I agree that it could be possible that you have it right. Some prefer the hint/begin/cease approach that means those words in the poem mean what they say and it’s a straight shot through hint and clues. I’ve seen many like approaches like yours.

          • JDA, you are right, his comments were in reference to the hints in the books and not to hints in the poem.

    • Hi Zap, thanks for the thorough response. I will keep that in mind when identifying the patterns. What is best for me is to keep that in the back burner until I need to decipher the clue/hint there’ll be no paddle up your creek.

      I will try one more time to explain my reasoning for believing that the hints in the book should not take us closer to the chest as per ff comments. Let’s say that you identified your wwh somewhere between West Yellowstone and Bozeman.

      Forrest speaks plenty of this areas in his books and writings since we know his family used to vacation there every year for the first 16-19 years of his life or more. We know the rest, he was a fishing guide around there, he personally walked that distance, he got lost in the Gallatin Forest looking for L&C, etc.. It will be easy enough for ff to hint to anything that has a name related to mountains, rivers, creeks, valleys or any other geographical feature with a known name in that area. Also, it will be easy for a searcher to make the connections to those places with a map or google earth.

      Now, since the chest has not been found we can make any of those supposedly hints of locations found on the book or elsewhere fit our chosen search area. This has been done thousand of times by searchers on all 4 states, also Idaho, Utah and possibly Canada too in the beginning.

      You say that those 2,5,10 hints you found on the book or elsewhere point to locations around your wwh, and then you say they are only good after you found the correct wwh to kinda confirm or give you confidence that you have the correct wwh. In my opinion that is not the test to eliminate confirmation bias if that is what you meant with the (after you figure out wwh). Why? Because those places were already there before you found that wwh. If you used them as pre-hints or post-hints do not make a difference. Wouldn’t that be exactly the same reasoning for those who found their perfect wwh in Wy, Co or Nm?

      Going back to the West Yellowstone example, I imagine that of course the highest probability to match most of those location hints will happen in this area since the stories of his childhood point there too, and that will give the searcher a higher confidence that he/she is in the right path. I think that is a statistically true statement.

      Now, if the chest is found in New Mexico tomorrow will you say then that ff was not being truthful or that he was playing games? You can show evidence of how your 2,5,10 hints are pointing to places around your wwh in MT, and how they confirm that you have the correct wwh. Also those in WY and CO can do the same but all Forrest needs to respond is that he told us the hints in the book will not take us closer to the chest and only the clues would, and he will be 100% correct and true to his statements.

      I may be over-complicating it at the moment, but I also want to be realistic that it is no easy task. After 7 years now and Forrest still says that only one or two (maybe 3 or 4) clues have been mentioned but no one has given him the clues in order.

      • The simple fact is that there are no confirmed hint identifications, and therefore no known correct hint interpretations.

        FF tried to articulate a definition of hint (to differentiate one from a clue, and to keep searchers entertained and engaged), but it sure feels more like a rough guideline than a pinhead designed for angel-dancing or rules-lawyering.

        Jake

      • Hi Oz10,

        Since you wrote: “I will try one more time to explain my reasoning for believing that the hints in the book should not take us closer to the chest as per ff comments,” I get the impression that you think my hints guide me closer to the chest. They don’t — they are useless for deciphering the path to the chest. They’re just places in the immediate area. They’re akin to Forrest’s statement about what he’d experience if he was at the chest’s location: “If I were standing where the chest is, I’d see trees, I’d see mountains, I’d see animals, I’d smell wonderful smells of pine needles or pinion nuts (sic), sagebrush, and I know the treasure chest is wet.” Those are all interesting tidbits of information, but they reveal very little about where the chest is located.

        While I agree that there is a higher probability of making unintended connections to the Yellowstone or West Yellowstone areas because of how often these are mentioned by Forrest, my hints don’t work that way. It wouldn’t be a “subtle hint” to just come right out and name a place like Hebgen Lake or Grebe Lake. IMO, the hints are sneakier than that, and refer to things very few people have ever heard of (except for the locals).

        “You say that those 2,5,10 hints you found on the book or elsewhere point to locations around your wwh…”

        Just to clarify, it isn’t just 10 hints. It’s hundreds of them that refer to the same ten-odd places over and over and over again. If it was just one hint for each place, I would assign little significance since Forrest’s writings are so voluminous. But dozens for each is too much to ignore, in my opinion.

        “Now, if the chest is found in New Mexico tomorrow will you say then that ff was not being truthful or that he was playing games?”

        Hah! That’s not a scenario I worry about. In my opinion, Forrest’s word that is key has absolutely nothing to do with New Mexico, and that key word has been hinted at over 100 times. Heck, even Cynthia seems to have abandoned New Mexico (at least for now). Who’da thunk that would ever happen? 😉

        • Zap,
          On one hand you talk that you ‘married the clues to the map’ (poem only, right?), then you talk about ‘hundreds of hints that refer to the same 10 places’…I realize you apply a statistical ‘reasonableness’ to how you play the game, but can you talk about any examples of HOW you interpret some of these hints? I guess what I’m curious about is how much ‘imagination’ you’re applying under these ‘hint’ scenarios…that you can then interpret/apply to 10 places? I realize we don’t have any bounds on how ‘far out’ a hint may be, but your justification sounds a lot like bias confirmation.

          On another point, why do you believe your ‘map’ based clue solving is correct, given the popularity/commonality of that approach? 7 years of map reading seems all of the possibilities could have been extracted…do you really believe yours is so unique that no one else has considered it? Seems a bit arrogant, given we have maybe 10% of searchers who ever speak up here or at MW? All IMO of course, not trying to say you don’t have it, rather your confidence is unconvincing (since you can’t/won’t detail any of your ideas/spots). I see you on the JDA/Vox path…optimistic, tragic hubris, lots of crow for dinner. Maybe you could describe your thought process/idea/interpretation/imagination without giving a specific detail away? How deep do those leaps of faith go (at this point that is all they are for any of us…myself included…so help us believe why that step into the black is the right one?)

          • Hi TBug;

            Optimistic – you betcha!
            Tragic Hubris – had to look that one up – excessive pride or self-confidence.
            What is excessive? Self confidence – You betcha!
            Lots of crow for dinner – YUP YUP,but had I not told the world about my exploits, who would know? I chose to tell the blog about every adventure, and ate crow when it appeared as though I had failed. I am proud of my exploits. I have learned something every trip, and I have told the blog about every trip. “YOU” may interpret these trips as failures – I do not. Every trip out is a learning experience – every step may not be in the exact right direction, but every step has gotten me closer – or so I think. Is that over confidence? I guess we shall see. JDA

          • Well said, JDA. Some of us get out there and report what we find. Others like to sneer. So be it. It’s the experience that counts.

          • P.S. – I do have the option of becoming a “Lurker” and not telling of my exploits. Were I to do that, I would have no crow dinners to eat. Would that be a more honest approach? – I think not. JDA

          • Spot on – JDA!

            You said: “I am proud of my exploits. I have learned something every trip, and I have told the blog about every trip. “YOU” may interpret these trips as failures – I do not.”

          • JDA/vox – apologies for the negative connotations with my comment…I am not disparaging your willingness to share, that is to be commended, especially in light of all the crow (many of us are well versed in the various flavors of crow). Also, boots on the ground is commendable, and the confidence to do so, is not in and of itself a bad thing, rather, I was trying to point out the larger narrative…in a tragedy, the main character, while lovable, ‘fails’ due to pride…tragic hubris. By no means do I consider your adventures ‘failures’ in that they have certainly provided you with information/learnings…no chest sure, but I am of the opinion that your interpretations/application of that learned information might not be correct (JMHO)…I might be way off.

          • TBug;

            Apology accepted. We are all entitled to our opinions. I, of course, disagree with your opinion, but that is to be expected.

            Good luck to you in figuring out what secrets are held within the poem – JDA

          • Hi TBug,

            “On one hand you talk that you ‘married the clues to the map’ (poem only, right?)…”

            Yep, poem + map, and nothing else.

            “… then you talk about ‘hundreds of hints that refer to the same 10 places’…I realize you apply a statistical ‘reasonableness’ to how you play the game, but can you talk about any examples of HOW you interpret some of these hints?”

            Sure. Many of my hints are word games (e.g. letter scrambles) or plays on words. Others are transliterations. Some are proper names that refer to people in his stories but happen to also be place names or portions of place names. Some are homonyms. And in many of the pictures Forrest shares I’ve found visual clues.

            So how to differentiate a hint from confirmation bias? I think the extreme repetition is one way; in other cases, something fishy is going on that makes a phrase or sentence stand out (e.g. all those reversed sayings).

            “On another point, why do you believe your ‘map’ based clue solving is correct, given the popularity/commonality of that approach? 7 years of map reading seems all of the possibilities could have been extracted…do you really believe yours is so unique that no one else has considered it?”

            Well, certainly several someones have considered at least the beginning of it because they figured out WWWH a long time ago. But as near as I can tell those folks must have run off the rails after the first two clues, and I can certainly understand why. I believe “Not far, but too far to walk” represents an unexpected, imaginative twist that just doesn’t enter most folks’ minds. Everyone gets hung up on it being some indistinct distance that must be traveled.

            “Seems a bit arrogant, given we have maybe 10% of searchers who ever speak up here or at MW?”

            I doubt the percentage is even that high. That’s why I’m more concerned about the lurkers: the few that have figured out WWWH but never post and in fact may never have visited this blog.

            But I’m encouraged by one thing: the comparatively low numbers of searchers who have purchased TFTW and/or OUAW. I think any searcher without at least the second memoir is at a tremendous disadvantage — not because there are critical clues within its pags, but because in my opinion the book is such a rich resource of hints, without which the searcher’s confidence will not be as high.

  15. Yes Zap,

    I totally concur with this for example; “hint of riches new and old.” This refers to the general location of WWWH where as the last line of the poem; “I give you title to the gold,” is a hint as to how to proceed from WWWH to the treasures location…

    The first hint occurs in Stanza #1 and addresses the first step/clue in the search, whereas the last line refers to how to apply the clues which occur later on in the poem…

    GCG

    • Additionally
      After reading several responses to Zaps post; there seems to be questions regarding how to interpret various phrases or word uses in the various lines of the poem in stanza’s 2-4.

      I would like to address one in particularly and that is; “there’ll be no paddle up your creek”

      The use of the phrase “your creek” is specific in that it is being used to define the exact creek which defines the correct path to the treasure…

      It’s not any creek but instead “your creek” refers to the creek you are looking for on a map!

      1) It is not a creek you will paddle up therefore it is a dry creek
      2) It is not a creek you will paddle up because it is seasonally dry
      3) It is not a navigable due to how small it is…
      4) It is not a creek you will paddle up because it is simply to be crossed.
      5) Finally, you are not paddling up because it is a creek you will go down stream on…

      GCG

      • GCG: a good start on possible interpretations of the paddle-up-your-creek line, but I fear far from complete. For instance, could be too steep or the current too strong to paddle upstream, independent of depth. Or could be “your creek” is a direction you shouldn’t be going at all.

      • GCG,

        -It’s not any creek but instead “your creek” refers to the creek you are looking for on a map!-

        So literally there will be no paddling it for one or more of those reasons you listed and figuratively because we found it on a map. That is what I was thinking.

        • Yes that is basically the idea but as Zap says you need to have an exhaustive list of reasons why your route doesn’t require paddling up THE CREEK which is critical to determining your path from below the HOB…

          But don’t forget the semi-colon???

          GCG

        • Many creeks are on land that is not accessible because of “boundaries”…or restricted use. In any given area there may be some of those(above mentioned) as well as others that are legally accessible(your creek). This could be a great descriptor.
          These things have been discussed at length over the years…legalities of access using the “high water” rule etc.
          Then again….” There’ll be no paddle up your creek” could have another clever meaning altogether….I guess the “correct” solve will govern that.

      • GCG –

        OR
        There is no creek at all.
        It’s euphemism.
        When I say I’m up a creek without a paddle, there is no creek. I am in trouble or having difficulty.

        This concludes this hour’s class Fenn Speak 101
        Lugnutz

    • GCG, you said…where as the last line of the poem; “I give you title to the gold,” is a hint as to how to proceed from WWWH to the treasures location…

      I don’t think this is possible given f’s definition of a clue. If a hint did as you suggest above it would be a clue and not a hint…just from simple reasoning.

      • Sorry FD,
        My phrasing was poor.
        The last line is a hint as to how to interpret the clues after WWWH – NOT directly how to proceed from WWWH.

        GCG

  16. Just a question. What if “Begin it where warm waters halt” directs you back to a,word in the First stanza? So the first clue actually causes you to reverse back to something said in the first stanza?

    • Forrest says:“There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. …” f Why read it over and over and over?6, 8, 10 times? Familiarity might be the answer, so that you are not just looking at a line or two, but the whole poem an one BIG clue. Maybe the “Hint” that will lead to the correct WWWH is in an earlier/later stanza – like Stanza #6 – but to you, it is all ONE poem – ONE stanza, not 6, so it doesn’t matter where in the poem the Hint came from – JMO – JDA

      • IMO – Just because the clues are in consecutive order doesn’t mean they follow a straight line, especially if one subscribes to an “X marks the spot” solve process.

        • I am not sure anyone has ever subscribed to a theory that all of the clues take one in a straight line. Mine certainly do not. Good luck in your search Bowmarc – JDA

          • JDA – I didn’t mean a perfectly straight line, as I know you described your clues as going in a circle. My point is nothing says that the clues don’t backtrack at times and would still be considered to be in consecutive order.

        • Good Day All,
          This seems to be a good place to post an answer to Tim and OZ in #41 discussion.
          Having been away from the blogs for a while now and catching up now.
          I am one that has been out nearly 50 times. Why?
          I have followed the poem, the SB’s, and MW comments – mostly IN ORDER but having to refer back to a few at time – Hmmmmm………. that means I have Repeated certain parts of the Poem on my trail – which has been exact. I tend to take each step and exhaust the possibility in the area before moving on, in some cases I have had to THINK a lot about the next step and usually did it while driving back home – about 6.5 hours.
          I can tell you that “all” and 3 as well as Tired and Repeated are important and each step has to be taken to get the context of the steps that Forrest wants us to observe and follow as I am on my 3rd location in the same area due to the fact i now have been through the Poem for the 3rd time in my solve with BOTG – each location building on the other and deciphering the Poem with a change in THINKING each time – It has gotten easier each time through. It is why you – need to go through all the steps to the end to open the lid and – title to the gold!!!
          Best Regards

    • Each clue should be in progressive order as you read the poem normally. If going back, where do you go from there? Its seems jumping in after where you started, sounds like missing something important to where you would think you should go next.

      IMO the 1st stanza is an introduction to the fact he was alone, with the TC, he’s the only one that knows where it is and he hints as to where it is in the poem. Right? No clue or hint there in the stanza.

      Oops, There is a hint, there is a treasure that was hidden!

      • I look in the first stanza to see who else in time did the precise same steps in the Rocky Mountains as what’s described in the first stanza. Seems like good reasoning.. Seems like there’s only one other instance to choose from. Narrowing down to one instance is compelling in a treasure hunt.

        • @FD, I have seen several searchers employ this same belief that the first stanza is alluding to a third person of historical significance. And I do not understand this method as it seems to be an over complication of the problem, and not good reasoning as you say.

          • The Wanderer, what’s over complicated about it? Lol

            I’d figure many other methods are 50 times more complicated, maybe more. I’d say the method I described tries to follow precisely what the recipe of the poem seems to be. Isn’t that what we are suppose to try and do?

          • @FD, uh……you said that the method you described tries to follow precisely what the recipe of the poem seems to be. I’m sorry I don’t understand what that means. What recipe do you speak of? And your use of the word seems, alludes to an opinion, not fact, as to the correct method that must be employed in order to precisely follow the poem. Please clarify as this all seems very contradictory to me.

          • the Wanderer, I explained the part about the recipe in a post downthread. I’ll add to it here…in general, f wrote in ttotc to follow the clues precisely (paraphrased)….that would be synonymous with the idea of a recipe. F has also replied to a question by asking his own question…

            Question posted 7/1/2014:

            Dear Forrest,

            You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:

            a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and
            b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”

            Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve

            No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?

            So you can see how the idea of a recipe can apply to the Chase.

            And, of course, I said seems in the post you refer to as I’m not stating as a fact that this is the correct method or idea that I have been discussing.

          • @FD, Going with your recipe analogy, which is partially Forrest’s, is it not possible that the recipe is the poem itself and its words the ingredients? If so, then aren’t all the ingredients we need to complete the recipe are contained wholly within it?

            So why would one look outside a recipe for additional ingredients, ones that might just cause the final outcome to be flawed. Obviously we are not talking about baking grandma’s cookies here, we are trying to precisely follow a set of instructions to a 10″ box somewhere within 380,000 +/- square miles. So disregarding the context of the provided ingredients or adding potentially flawed ones doesn’t, in my opinion, provide one the certainty that their cookies will come out right, if you know what I mean.

          • Now let’s play out a fun little hypothetical: lets’s say our little girl from India is planning on partaking in her school’s upcoming bake sale in order to earn enough money to finally visit the US Rocky Mountains. She has obtained my grandmothers cookie recipe, but does not have or even understand one of its key ingredients: cinnamon, and instead of taking the time to comprehend what cinnamon is she substitutes it with what she believes is it’s closest replacement: curry. Do you think she got any closer to the Rocky Mountains?

            Now maybe those cookies would do well in India, but has she precisely followed the recipe or has she taken a short cut, and arrived at a different than intended outcome?

            This is all rhetorical of course because the answer is obvious, at least in my opinion.

            Have a happy new year everyone.

          • The Wanderer, who’s looking for ingredients outside of the recipe or ignoring ingredients in the recipe. Give examples as I have no idea where you come up with stuff like this. Are you saying I’m doing that?

        • “As I have gone alone in there
          And with my treasures bold,
          I can keep my secret where,
          And hint of riches new and old.

          These words seem very vague (deliberately) FD.

          How can you say that only one other person did the same precise steps in the Rocky Mountains some time in the past?

          Any trapper could be mentioned. Bridger for example – As I have gone alone in there – gone alone into a new valley (new to him anyway)
          And with my treasures bold, – With his traps and rifle.
          I can keep my secret where, – I can keep this place a secret so no other trappers venture here.
          And hint of riches new and old. – But I can tell you about the rich furs that I caught there 🙂

          Just sayin’ JDA

          • JDA, yes I agree the words in stanza 1 seem very vague (deliberately). But that doesn’t mean that they don’t hold a secret recipe that if followed precisely opens up the correct wwwh.

            In your trapper example with Bridger, you haven’t mentioned enough information to form an opinion about it. The missing info is is there evidence that helps one narrow it down to one distinct valley (the new valley to him)?

            The other problems with your example is can one provide evidence that Bridger actually kept this place a secret so no other trappers would venture there?
            And hint of riches new and old. – Did Bridgett actually tell about the rich furs that he caught there? If one can find evidence that he did hint of this, I’d say the job isn’t complete. The final question I would have is “why would Bridger hint of his secret”?

            That’s the compelling question. I can think of only a couple instances where one is “compelled” to hint at a specific secret of theirs because it is necessary for one’s ultimate plan. That is the case for f’s Chase. He is compelled to hint at his secret place for the Chase to thrive. I think it’s the same for the other possible case in stanza one. I’d say with your Bridger example, Bridger is not compelled to hint about his secret. That is the difference. That is what makes it different than all the other cases you attribute to this.

          • FD;

            Question – Did Bridger (as an example – could be any trapper) trap for sport? Nope – They trapped for the furs that could be sold or traded. By selling or bartering the furs, the trapper had to “Hint of riches new and old”. Yes, they were “compelled” because they had to sell or barter the furs in order to get staples like coffee or flour etc. JDA

          • P.S. I have to disagree that Forrest is compelled to “Hint of riches new and old” to keep the chase alive. Forrest did not have to describe all of the baubles in the chest nor even tell of their true value. Most searchers are enticed by the value, but most seek “The Thrill of the Chase” – I know that it is “The Thrill of the Chase” that is most important to me. Forrest is not compelled to give out hints, nudges, or whatever. He could have published his book, and “Settled down for a long winter’s nap”. Forrest is “compelled” to do nothing – IMO – JDA

          • FDA, I understand that. But your answer still shows a bunch of unspecified leads to lock down…which trapper (in your example) does stanza 1 specifically point to? Because you keep telling us it could be any trapper….

            And once you figure out which trapper is specifically alluded to in stanza one, what valley, of the thousands out there, is the one that is specifically hinted at and is that information that is actually known somewhere and findable? You have 3 major hoops to jump through with your example that you haven’t even got started with in your posts.

          • Poor use of the English language – Forrest is not compelled to do anything – except what Peggy may ask him to do 🙂 JDA

          • JDA, I disagree with both your points.

            A trapper like Bridger is not compelled to hint at where he got his tradeables at. His furs speak for themselves. His own reputation and career of being a trapper speak for themselves.

            And I’m not talking about those kind of hints from f about the baubles in the treasure chest. I’m talking about actual hints, that f has said he has used, to help with the clues in his poem to help find his treasure chest. 2 completely different focuses. No one can say the word hint isn’t in the first stanza of the poem.

          • And yes f is compelled to get the story of his treasure hunt out there somehow or it goes nowhere and we aren’t having this conversation right now.

          • FD;

            And you have the same hoops to jump through. You want us to believe that in the words of stanza #1 all of this information is revealed to you. which trapper (in your example) does stanza 1 specifically point to? Because you keep telling us it could be any trapper…. I don’t “Keep telling us it could be any trapper” – I mentioned it only once, but I also mentioned one possible trapper – Bridger

            And once you figure out which trapper is specifically alluded to in stanza one,
            – You also need to tell us who, other than Forrest “Went alone in there” – You won;t because it would divulge too much and I understand this, but you can not criticize me for not naming names (although I did name “A” name) when you do not.
            what valley, of the thousands out there, is the one that is specifically hinted at and is that information that is actually known somewhere and findable? Are you saying that stanza #1 provides you with this information? If so, why hasn’t anyone else seen it? = Why haven’t you found Indulgence?
            You have 3 major hoops to jump through with your example that you haven’t even got started with in your posts. 3???? you only mentioned two – a person and a valley – Just sayin’ JDA

          • @pdenver, the word where has many different meanings, your example is just one of them. Maybe you ought to figure our why he uses the word can, in the line you quoted.

          • @FD, I’m monitoring your discussion with JDA about trappers and noticed something interesting you said. So if I may ask, do you believe that the word “hint”,contained within the first stanza, is a hint or clue to look for hints in the book that help you correctly identify the correct starting point and or WWWH?

            If my interpretation of you words is accurate, then this theory closely resembles something that was alluded to by Jonsey and Seeker back in early 2016, that the poem is sort of the legend that tells us how to read the book or vice verse. I don’t necessarily agree with this theory, but it is an interesting take.

          • Hello the Wanderer. One possibility for “can” to work with “a journal” is the idea of something written/mapped.

          • JDA, yes, you did mention twice about the many trappers. Look a few posts down from the first time you mentioned about that.

            Yes, I know I have the same 3 major hoops to go through also. And yes, I mentioned 3. The 2 you quoted and that the information you are basing your case on is findable as evidence…not just a flimsy assumption or opinion.

            And I didn’t criticize you for not naming names. You used a good example so I explained the details with your example that I’m using on my solve. I think it’s important to bring up details as many of them probably haven’t been thought about by many searchers. That’s the reason for this excellent blog.

            Why haven’t I found the tc? I don’t know, that’s another opinion based answer that isn’t compelling cause it can’t be figured out.

            Yes, I’m saying I think stanza one provides the best hint out there that specifies a geographical location close by to the correct wwwh. You’ll know it’s the correct wwwh because it’s the only one that can be seen from the hint location.

            I think ttotc has a couple of hints that are easier but still tricky to piece together that also gets one to the same general area where you then can find wwwh.

          • the Wanderer, I’d i haven’t already answered your question about the word ‘hint’ in stanza one I’ll take another quick and easy stab at it.

            I think the whole first stanza is one clue. I think one needs to find out the 4 ingredients in the stanza and figure out what those ingredients make when used in the same, exact order that f used them in his poem.

            It’s simple and straightforward. It’s why I postedthat I think one can narrow down the correct one answer to that mystery in the first stanza, imo.

            I think other approaches like the one JDA brought up can’t narrow it down to one specific answer/place.

          • **** James (TZP) – “Has anyone mapped out the route in “The Journal of a Trapper”?” ****

            The 1965 Aubrey Haines edition (U of Nebraska I think) has maps of Russell’s Rocky Mtn travels (the Journal covers 9 years 1834-1843, so there’s not ‘a’ route).

            Frequently reprinted – I don’t know if the maps are in any/all of the reprints, nor which ones. Try your library and inter-library loan if necessary.

            Jake

          • @pdenver, you said:

            ‘I can keep my secret where,”

            A journal?

            I would agree that the place he could keep his secret would be a journal, if the line had been written:

            “I keep my secret where,”

            Because that would come off as a rhetorical statement, but it was not written that way. The word “can” in that phrase makes it come off as a statement of fact. Therefore the not so obvious question then becomes: how does he know that he can keep his where a secret?

        • @FD, thanks for the reply. Unfortunately this forums format doesn’t flow well and one can miss a reply.

          So if I understand you, you are of the belief that the entire first stanza is a singular clue, and that wholey possesses four ingredients that allude to or hint at a historical person and or place that one could then find the correct starting point or WWWH within? Is this accurate? And if so where does one find the confirmations of these four ingredients?

          • the Wanderer, yes that is fairly accurate. When one writes it out like you did or I have it looks convoluted. But if one just thinks about it, once they understand it, then I think it’s straightforward and easy. To me, straightforward and easy equals elegance.

            If the finder comes forward one day and releases their solution I’d hope the mystery would be elegant in some fashion. A big part of that to me means an element of being easier than some made the mystery out to be.

            You asked about where would one find confirmation about the 4 ingredients. I’d say the first step is figuring out why one would hint at their own secret like I mentioned to JDA. Who is compelled to hint at their own secret?

            JDA didn’t think that f is compelled to do that but he is. Anyone who has created a major mystery for others to solve is compelled to somehow have that mystery (secret) spread to others so they know that there is something to get involved with. There’s no other way to get around that.

            F’s reasons for creating the Chase like getting others out like to smell the sunshine and to get the kids off of their texting machines are just some of the reasons that f has mentioned that he architected his mysterious poem.

            If this method has merit, the next trick is to figure out who else back in the day also came up with a major mystery in the Rocky Mountains (yes, on the treasure map).

          • The way I’m reading the first stanza is that it contains a specific reference to a place and 3 additional characteristics of that place. One of those characteristics is that it was his “secret weir”, a fishing spot. So I’m mostly in agreement with FD here, except that I don’t get why there needs to be an order to the 4 elements (I’ll look at it with this in mind though).

            To answer Wanderer’s question the only confirmation I get is the same one I’ve used for other parts of the poem. Many of the clues that I see have some redundancy. In the first stanza that redundancy comes from the extra characteristics that are listed.

    • The first stanza contains a hint, i believe, for the location of the treasure. And, I think the hint is “alone in there”. To me, this says that the treasure is in a relatively small, defined, area. A cave would be ideal, but Forrest has ruled this out. I think the next likeliest location to fit “alone in there” is a small canyon.

      • Tom,

        I disagree, “As I have gone alone in there”, we all know he went by himself into the mountains, That’s all, even as you said “the treasure is in a relatively small, defined, area.” we all already know that. Heck yeah, it’s in the RM.

        I don’t see a clue, we all know ,”take in the canyon down”, so why repeat the 1st stanza in the 2nd stanza”

        Just saying

        • I see the first stanza as describing the end of the journey into the mountains; the part where he walks from his car to the hiding place. This, this is not the same as the canyon associated with where warm waters halt.

      • Hey Tom. Where did Forrest rule out caves? I know he ruled out mines but not caves as far as I know.
        It could be under a rock shelter though. AIMHO.

        • JohnR;
          Look at the cheat Sheet – Item 5 – ♦Not in a mine, tunnel, or cave. Take a look at the Cheat Sheet and Fundamental Guidelines – Good Info there – JDA

          • no JDA… he asked where did Forrest rule out caves…

            The Cheat sheet #5 is under “what we take as fact” area…

            he wants to know where Forrest said that? so would I.

            what (audible) interview or direct written response location would that be found to make that a legit “what we take as FACT” list item

          • Here is a quote that might answer your question then:
            Question posted 6/30/2014:

            Hi Forrest, I would like to know if the blaze can be found during the day without a flashlight. Thanks, Ron

            Perhaps your question is wrought with trickiness Ron. Are you really asking if the blaze could be in a cave where it is dark during the day, thus the need of a flashlight? If there is no subterfuge intended in your question then I would say yes.f

            Will this work for you? – JDA

          • James: more specifically in that podcast at the 24 minute 30 second mark Forrest says — correcting Richard — (my transcript): “No, I said that it’s not in a cave or a mine. I don’t want people getting killed in the mine.”

    • Just to add. In the treasure hunt “in search of the Golden horse” Amanda (the main character) learns in one chapter that “sometimes the best way to move forward is to move back”.

      So, what if the First Clue actually sends you a stanza BACK in order to solve that clue? We normally think we should begin with the sentence “Begin it…” But what if that is not the case? For example what if warm waters actually halt at the word “secret”? You would then need to GO BACK to BEGIN the search. Just an observation and nothing more.

  17. IMO, it looks like f wrapped a belt around the chest. Maybe he did it to remind the searcher to buckle up… IMO.

  18. Good morning to all. & a Happy safe New Year.
    IMO I sure hope TC is found in 18.
    Should FF pass, God forbid, before it is found, I am thinking that all kinds of nere-do-wells and wacky doos are going to crawl out of the wood work.
    Good hunting.

    • BATTY, if the folks you mentioned “crawl out of the wood work”, how will we know this has happened? What should
      we do? What would/will you do?

  19. There is by and large a considerable hiccup in most searchers reasoning, and that may lie in their propensity to disregard context in favor of personal bias. This is fortunate for the wise.

    • Hello Wanderer
      A good train of thought on searchers and personal bias.
      I heard it said Mr. Fenn does not throw out red herrings.
      IMO, he does not have too.
      Many of our thoughts without really listening to the poem, give us our on red herrings.

      • @CC, agree. Forrest has said that there is no tomfoolery and or subterfuge in the poem, he wasn’t playing any games it is straightforward. He has even said that he has never purposely mislead a searcher ( all paraphrased). I believe he also one time asked why we were hung up on waterfalls, and to not force fit our ideas upon his poem.

        So it may be easy to then infer that it is us searchers who misinterpret the poem thus misleading ourselves and unfortunately others along the way, not him or his poem.

          • I remember as a kid opening those boxes with 500 piece puzzles in them. The puzzle is pretty straightforward–there is usually a picture on the front of the box of how the puzzle should look when finished.

            But you know—I don’t think any of us used the exact pieces in exact sequence every time we re-constructed that puzzle.

            “Don’t mess with my puzzle” might mean don’t alter the pieces, or throw any of them away. But as far as putting the puzzle together there may be more than one way. just saying

          • @Sparrow, a good puzzler will first construct and or define the boundaries of said puzzle, the framework so to speak.

          • Sparrow…when I was little my mom did the super sized jigsaws in her sewing room. I figured out that most of them had a pattern when they were made. Once the pattern was figured out…it was easy to spot the next piece. Fun stuff…but it ruined the whole idea, kinda.

        • “So it may be easy to then infer that it is us searchers who misinterpret the poem thus misleading ourselves and unfortunately others along the way, not him or his poem.”

          @Wanderer,
          That is certainly the understatement of the year! Many(most?) are convinced the solve has to be long, drawn-out, convoluted and eloquent. That, IMO, is the first rabbit hole, from which they never find an exit.

          https://bloggedinthewoods.wordpress.com/2015/11/13/fenn-emails/

          On 6/14/2016

          (Erica Jorre)Me: …how many pages would it take to write down the solution AND steps in how to get there?

          FF: Size of a sticky note.

          *yup, most(99.9%) of ya’ll are gonna scream and discount his reply cause it ain’t first hand…..but, I believe this searcher is reliable.

          🙂

          • LOL. Did you know that there have been people who have written the whole Bible on a sticky note? 🙂

          • Hi Loco: sticky-note is all I’d need for mine. The solution is simple; imagining it was the hard part.

          • From what I understand Forrest has written his whole autobiography and reduced it in size so it fits into a small glass tube–so fitting the clues and steps on a sticky note wouldn’t surprise me at all.

          • That’s what I believe at this stage of the game Loco. Short and sweet !
            All the clues are inter”twine”d and point to ground zero/extraction point.
            Harvey Goodwin

          • @Loco, we agree. Call it: Hueristics, Occam’s Razor or just plain common sense; If indeed all the information one needs to find the treasure is in the poem, then keeping to just that, the poem, may be the most direct approach to solving this riddle. Is this approach the easiest, well that is clearly debatable, but it surely is not impossible, and it may be the only approach that provides one with the certainty that the eventual finder will have, as Forrest alludes to.

          • @Sparrow,
            “LOL. Did you know that there have been people who have written the whole Bible on a sticky note? ”

            Yup….and a whole passel of searchers better have that talent, to draw upon! (or have a post-it the size of a poster board) 🙂

          • Then again, f did put a 20,000 word autobiography in an olive jar. But yea, sticky note, pretty much.

          • I think, in the end, if the solution is made known, that it will be something that most of us will say “I should have gotten that”.

    • The Wanderer

      Oh well, there’s Flo on my left and then there’s Mary on my right
      And Janie is the girl well that I’ll be with tonight
      And when she asks me, which one I love the best?
      I tear open my shirt and I show “Rosie” on my chest

      Aound around around around
      Lugnutz

  20. I’m sure this has been discussed, but here goes anyway (since today is Dec. 27)…

    I was looking at postmarks in TTOTC, and I discovered an oddity on pg. 72. It wasn’t the postmark that I found odd, but the caption near the photo of Forrest & Peggy’s wedding.
    Our wedding, Dec. 27, 1953
    That would be a Sunday! Perhaps he was married in 1952, or the date was not the 27th?
    I just found this to be *very* odd… IMO

    [rabbit hole spoiler]..

    –Fennatical

    • Hello Fennatical. Not necessarily an incorrect year. Churches could hold a wedding service on a Sunday. Church service(s) during the morning, possibly free in the afternoon…..one service in the morning and one in the evening, with the latter morning/afternoon available.

  21. After reading the posts about the 1st stanza having a mysterious hints prior to the 2nd stanza doesn’t hold water at all. As I said before the 1st stanza is an introductory to the chase. I don’t know where all of this came about that the 1st stanza has hints to wwwh. I feel those that continue to believe that are looking for a short cut to wwwh, and grasping at straws for their starting point.

    The reason I keep saying this is because there are ifs and no firm reasoning. The rest of the poem past stanza 1 does create more reasons to be reasonable with probable solutions. All in all I haven’t found or read anything that convinces me that there are hints in the 1st stanza.

    As always my opinion 🙂

      • Sparrow,

        Yes the first stanza is really the first stanza. As F has said don’t mess with his poem.

        • CharlieM;
          If, as I believe, the architecture of the poem is a circle – stanzas 1,2,3,4,5,6,1,2,3,4,5 etc – Does it matter which stanza you start with? Forrest says clue #1 in in stanza #2 – so, why not start with 2,3,4,5,6,1 etc? The stanza’s are still consecutive, the clues are still consecutive – we are just starting with clue #1 (Stanza #2) – JDA

          • JDA,

            What you said, “the poem is a circle” The poem does not go around and around, this creates no beginning and no end as you describe.

            The poem starts at stanza 1 and ends in the 6th stanza. I have not figured out your method of finding the TC. IMO wandering around in circles is not going to lead to a solve.

            F simply said read the poem over and over to understand what the poem is saying. He is not implying circles within the poem, nor does within the poem mention circles.

            The poem is straightforward and I am not saying go in a straight line.

            IMO

    • So you haven’t read that the word “hint” is in the first stanza or you don’t think the word hint means hint?

      I don’t understand why you said this… I don’t know where all of this came about that the 1st stanza has hints to wwwh. I feel those that continue to believe that are looking for a short cut to wwwh, and grasping at straws for their starting point.

      What is wrong with looking for a short cut to figuring out the correct wwwh? Can’t a short cut to the clues be hints like what f described when he gave the definitions of a clue and hint? I mean, it’s not my opinion that the word “hint” is in the first stanza. That certainly allows for the possibility of there being a hint in the first stanza.

      Isn’t part of f’s best advice for searchers looking for the tc is to look for hints? I believe the things I’ve said here are firm reasoning since I back it up with actual information that backs it up. Don’t some of f’s quotes hinge on figuring out the correct wwwh and stay home or play Canasta if you don’t have the first clue nailed down? That seems important.

      • FD,

        ” I can keep my secret where and hint of riches new and old” This line is a statement that F is keeping the secret where the TC is and he is giving hints to where the TC is at in the poem.

        Just pulling out the word “hint” out of context doesn’t mean there are hints in the 1st stanza. There is no place that points to a hint of wwwh. I stay within the context of the complete sentence of Stanza 1.

        The 2nd stanza “begins” the start of all clues with some hints included. Clues & hints has been debated, so I won’t go there. There are no short cuts to wwwh.

        IMO

        • Shortcuts – well maybe not – Hints in other stanza’s that lead you to exactly which wwwh is the correct one, I believe so – JDA

        • CharlieM, you said…just pulling out the word “hint” out of context doesn’t mean there are hints in the 1st stanza. There is no place that points to a hint of wwwh. I stay within the context of the complete sentence of Stanza 1.

          I use the context of the complete sentence of stanza 1 and I believe that there is a place in stanza one that points to a hint. Lol

          You said yourself f is giving hints in the poem after you read stanza 1. You have nothing but your opinion that states there’s no hint in stanza one.

          I like how some “don’t want to go there” when they can’t provide a reasonable explanation how hints and clues can be interspersed within stanza 2 and beyond. Like they don’t have to reconcile f’s definition of a clue…A hint in the poem can’t be interspersed between clues or it would be considered a clue.

          • Oh, and we can take the word “begin” out of the second stanza’s context and still understand that begin = begin. Just more evidence to back up my position.

          • FD;

            You make these grandiose claims like: “A hint in the poem can’t be interspersed between clues or it would be considered a clue.” Says who? Just because that is the way that you interpret what Forrest has said; does not make it so. You have provided NO examples or proof of what you say, and then criticize others when they take a differing view. It is my personal opinion that you suffer from Myopia –
            my·o·pi·a
            mīˈōpēə/
            noun
            noun: myopia

            nearsightedness.
            lack of imagination, foresight, or intellectual insight.

            If you would explain, in detail if necessary your views, and not just say paraphrasing – This is truth, accept it or you are wrong! I might be a lot more receptive to your posts – JMO – JDA

          • JDA, I’ve discussed in detail for the better part of the last two days why I believe f’s definition of what a clue is precludes a hint showing up between clues in the poem in response to you and others…so I don’t no what you are talking about.

            If you want to consider it a grandiose claim that’s on you. If you want to call it my interpretation that f has defined a clue and hint to be two different things then, again, that’s on you. It’s not an opinion that f has defined a clue and hint differently, it’s a fact.

            Proof and the source have been provided by Zap in the form of f’s quote that I speak of.

            I have provided an abundance of detail of why I think a clue gets one closer to the tc and how I hint can’t do that or it would be referred to as a clue. It’s just that it’s a simple concept to understand so there’s not a lot of detail needed to provide. I also provided an example…..remember when I said a hint can’t help get us hoB, the meek place, canyon down or your creek. It’s because if a hint did help us figure out the correct hoB then that would get us closer to the tc than wwwh and canyon down and therefore be defined as a clue.

            I have not criticized anyone who thinks elsewise. I’ve asked questions of others and offered insights to help. I’ve offered a lot of that without saying paraphrasing, lol.

            Do you think the few in tight focus with a word that is key suffer from Myopia? Lol

          • FD;

            You win. I am dense. I do not have the mental where-with-all to comprehend your logic.

            Have a GREAT day, and good luck in your search for Indulgence. You know what a clue is, and you know what a hint is. YEA for you. I hope that the Clues lead you to the treasure, and I hope that the hints help you determine what the clues are and what they mean. I hope you find it so you can explain to us all how you did it!

            JDA

        • Fun D,
          CharlieMs comment is easy to understand from a ‘straightforward’ point of view, he is suggesting there is additional context around the word hint, and its in the words around it…FF is telling us about the chase, and the hint is about what’s in the box…just my OPINION, why do you discount this very basic, plain English, understanding of those words? I don’t believe he said ‘marry the HINTS to the map’ did he? I get your clue/hint reasoning, I just think it is equally too strict/loose in how you see it…to us outsiders it looks like confirmation bias, to you just the first word. Good luck, and not saying you’re wrong, just that your justification is a leap of faith that you have not supported in an easy to understand way (and maybe you can’t, but still…calling us dense, while true, does not MAKE us believe you)

          • Thug, I never said I discounted CharlieM’s comment suggesting there is additional context around the word hint, and it’s in the words around it. Heck, I even showed that I think that too.

            I even agree that f can be describing things in the tc in the first stanza but that doesn’t mean it is not possible that f could have hidden more information there if correctly figured out, right? Why is the possibility of there being more hidden information being discounted? Can you answer that?

            You said… don’t believe he said ‘marry the HINTS to the map’ did he? Does he have to for it to be possible?

            Then you said…to us outsiders it looks like confirmation bias, to you just the first word. I don’t know what you mean when you said to you just the first word so I can’t answer that.

            What could be an easier way to understand what I am saying than showing one thing….that f defined a clue as something that gets us closer to the tc and a hint helps with the clues. It’s obvious from that f statement that if a hint got us closer to the tc it would be called a clue. So a hint can’t do that.

            What’s so hard about that or wrong? And I never called anyone dense, accusations like that from you guys reflect on you, not me.

          • OK FD I will try one last time to explain why I disagree with your position.

            For over one year I had a hoB, and could justify why it worked as a hoB. It was a logical choice.

            Questions arose as to whether a hoB could, or could not be associated with a structure.

            My primary hoB had a structure associated with it.

            I had a secondary hoB that had no structure associated with it.

            I could easily explain WHY my primary hoB was something that Forrest might call a this place his hoB

            My secondary hoB has no structure associated with it, but I could not figure out the “WHY” Forrest would call this geographical feature his hoB.

            1) There are nine clues found in the poem – Fact – because Forrest has said so.

            2) Within a story in TTOTC, I found what I believe to be the reason WHY Forrest would call this geographical feature HIS hoB.

            3) The words of the poem led me to this geographical feature, thus it is a clue.

            4) A clue can not exist outside of the poem since Forrest has said that there are nine clues, and they are within the poem.

            5) What I found in TTOTC is a HINT – not a clue, since clues can not be found outside of the poem.

            6) What I found as a HINT DID get me closer to solving the riddles of the poem, and yet it CAN NOT be called a clue. It DID get me closer to to solving a clue because it explained WHY Forrest would call this place HIS hoB.

            I hope you can see the logic I have expressed. If not, so be it. I at least tried.

            If you disagree with my logic, please explain why. JDA

          • JDA, yes I remember you asking about Cynthia’s previous comments about structures and hoB. I’m the first one that posted I thought Cynthia was under the impression that f meant all clues.

            Your point 1 I agree with.

            Point 2 is ok on its own…meaning I take what you are saying here on face value and noting that you haven’t called what you found as a hint or clue yet here.

            Point 3- You said- The words of the poem led me to this geographical feature, thus it is a clue. I’m assuming you mean since you found your geographical feature in the poem it’s a clue since you are using hoB as a clue. That’s ok.

            Point 4 I agree.

            Point 5- you said- What I found in TTOTC is a HINT – not a clue, since clues can not be found outside of the poem.

            I’d say you what you found in TTOTC is a “possible” hint and that it can’t act like a clue.

            And somewhere on your list of points I’d like to see f’s definitions for clues and hints cause if that’s ignored then that could cause mistakes. You are still focusing on the location of where you find something to define if it’s a hint or clue more so than the definitions.

            Point 6- you said- It DID get me closer to solving a clue because it explained WHY Forrest would call this place HIS hoB.

            Here’s a test to show what’s more important to keep in mind, the definitions of a clue and hint or where you find something. If I said f told me something that exactly explained WHY Forrest would call a geographical feature his blaze I don’t know how tons of searchers wouldn’t bemoan that I got a clue from f. It obviously would get me closer to the tc than wwwh. If I found in TTOTC the same blaze info I’d say the same thing. I mean, that sounds exactly like the type of information that we are trying to find in the poem. Who else other than f can say that the actual clues in the poem don’t give us that same type of information for hoB, canyon down, or blaze. I think there’s an issue on how you’ve worded your statement by using “HIS hoB”. That places an emphasis on the info being correct.

            It just things to think about. I’m not saying I’m right. Thanks, JDA and all for the discussion.

          • FD

            You say,”And somewhere on your list of points I’d like to see f’s definitions for clues and hints cause if that’s ignored then that could cause mistakes. You are still focusing on the location of where you find something to define if it’s a hint or clue more so than the definitions. ”

            Why? You never give Forrest’s definition. all you say is it is the one zap posted. Also, my Items 4) and 5) do just that – they say where a clue must reside (in the poem) and how that differs from a hint which CAN be found outside of the poem.

            You then say, “Here’s a test to show what’s more important to keep in mind, the definitions of a clue and hint or where you find something.” Will you please provide me with those definitions, as provided by Forrest, that you seem to feel I have overlooked?

            Forrest said (paraphrasing) that I wrote a poem that included nine clues, if followed precisely will lead to the end of my rainbow and Indulgence.

            Therefore, CLUES (nine of them) can ONLY come from within the poem. Any other information, whether it gets you closer to the treasure or not can NOT be called a clue, it therefore MUST be a hint – period!

            I too am not saying that I am right – only Forrest can answer that question BUT from all I read that Forrest has said, I can not get around the fact that the nine clues are within the poem – period. Even if a bit of information gets you closer to the chest, if it was found outside of the poem, “It ain’t a clue” – period – At least that is how I see it. Obviously you do not agree – so be it. JDA

          • @JDA, immediately following the poem it is written: There are also other subtle clues sprinkled in the stories. It might be worth the effort to look up the definition of subtle.

          • Yep, so be it, JDA. I don’t agree with your reasoning, nothing wrong with that. I understand what you are saying but I think you are missing something. You seem to feel that no searcher has ever mistakenly tried to use some information they find in the Chase incorrectly (like use info as a hint when f would consider it a clue) even though f said the nine clues are in the poem. We are talking about searchers solutions as they pertain to the clues and hints. It can’t be assumed that since f’s statement states there are 9 clues in the poem that searchers follow that guideline and get it right with every decision they make about clues and hints. Searchers can easily and unknowingly make a mistake with one of their decisions thinking the info they found is a hint or a clue in the poem or ttotc. Claiming info found is a clue or hint doesn’t automatically mean it’s accurate to f’s specification of how info is delineated.

            I don’t understand why I need to repeat the definitions that Zap posted and that i have talked about. I properly gave Zap credit for posting your requested info first. You are wrong that I have not stated the definition of what f says a clue is. By f defining what a clue does for us it implies that a hint can’t do the same thing.

          • Tbug, above you posted…’FF is telling us about the chase’ in the first stanza. Essentially that means it’s the backstory like the searchers who feel stanza 1 is only used as an introduction. That take on it then allows them to ask other searchers, who think there’s hidden and crucial information in stanza 1 that helps solve the clues, why they discount this very basic, plain English, understanding of those words.

            Here’s why…Hello Forrest,

            If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?

            Thank you ~Nope
            Thank you Nope. Nope. f

            One way to interpret that Q&A is if a person doesn’t have the backstory they’re doomed. You guys are all saying the first stanza tells about the Chase, tells about f going in there and hiding the tc, f went alone in there and kept his secret where, it’s an introduction, the backstory, nothing more.

            Well, f can be thinking in this hypothetical scenario that without using the backstory then a person would not have available to them the first stanza. F answers the question of could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem to find your treasure chest with a big nope! It can mean that just the clues in the poem aren’t enough to find the treasure because having the first stanza is critical. That’s because it has a hint to help with the first clue- wwwh. This scenario laminated that crucial hint.

  22. All this is In My Opinion (IMHO)

    In the first stanza Forrest is telling us that he went into his special area alone. “In there” to me means, in the special area. Treasures bold mean what is contained within that area. Treasures in a box, covered up in the dark, are not bold. So for me his great treasures exist within the area, and hints of riches new and old probably means his life experiences, stories, tales and truths of his past and recent times. I also believe he wanted the reader to know there was no accomplice with him in the whole effort.

    Within the many stories in TTOTC and TFTW, there are many hints of what he considers important in this world. Look for keywords to describe treasures he might love to find in the natural world. For me, “hints of riches” can simply come down to some very distinct phrases and words he works into the stories in the books. I believe he did this on purpose in most cases.

    Remember, this is not an argument, just my personal humble opinion(s).

    Now when we seek a place where warm waters halt, we have many to choose from. However, the field narrows when we seek that place which also coincides with great “things” which might be given great value by Forrest. To do this we have to read the books and the stories over and over, and then the poem over and over. Things start to “click”.

    I could write a huge essay about all this but heck, what fun is that? This is how I see stanza 1. I have noticed that these discussions go in circles a lot, and I certainly understand how this happens after over 7 years :-))

    Franklin

  23. Charlie said—-

    “As I said before the 1st stanza is an introductory to the chase”. Yes– YOU may have said this before but does it make it true? Is stanza 1 just an introductory? Far from it IMO. Stanza One could be the most important stanza in the poem (if it really is stanza one that is—lol).

    • Sparrow,

      It is only my opinion and for me it is true, weather or not others believe it to be true. You believe what you want to believe, I simply disagree.

      • Understood Charlie. Not belittling how you would approach the poem. I happen to agree with JDA above though—-I do think the poem is circular. It has been 7 years now and most are still pursuing the “straightforward” interpretation of the poem—-and that’s fine.

        I think there is something that almost all are NOT doing, and that’s why it hasn’t been found. I am pursuing unorthodox methods, and re-thinking a lot. So, don’t mean to “rock the boat” lol.

        • Seeker,

          No boat rocking here. 🙂

          There’s no harm at all trying things different ways. My understanding of “straightforward” is to tie each clue together and not in a straightforward line.

          I like to think the book TTOTC means more as it was his thoughts and getting to know him a little right from the get-go. If you know something of a man and hopefully understand him has a lot to do with solving the poem. There are adequate hints in the book, I don’t know how many or even know if they are the right hints.

          I believe the poem at the start requires a lot of thought, where would I go to hide my body that was completely out of character or obscure. Now look for what could be warm waters.

          Bang!! And we’re off and running. The case begins.

  24. IMO, stanza one has some important information in it; whether you want to call it a hint or a clue is, to a certain extent, irrelevant – particularly until you have identified WWWH. However, I would err towards “hint,” since, for me, the nine clues lie elsewhere in the poem.

    That said, I have long held the opinion that there is nothing superfluous in the poem, and therefore the arguments over what constitutes a clue, or which stanzas contain relevant information, are not very helpful. There seems to be a lot of discussion around what’s relevant and what’s not, which words make up a clue, and which can be ignored. Wouldn’t it be a good idea to consider everything as equally important until you can be sure it’s not?

    Finding WWWH is the essential first step – and that’s where all the energy and focus should be applied. As someone who has never read Forrest’s books (apart from short snippets), I would say that it’s more of a “technical” problem than one requiring deep knowledge of anything surrounding Forrest’s life. I accept that until the chest is in hand we cannot be sure we have the right place, but I believe the hider of the treasure has left enough confirmatory signs, both within and without the poem to help us be reasonably confident.

    • voxpops,

      To add to your post the following supports what you said,
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti2peP8jWYM&feature=youtu.be
      (36:13) OK, do we look at the poem more of a physical location or metaphysical location? “What’s metaphysical mean? When I wrote that poem I wasn’t playing any games, It’s straightforward.”

      IMO I take the last 2 words, the poem is straight forward. That is the most reasonable approach to solving where the TC is.

      • Agreed. The poem does not lead to a metaphysical location. It leads to an actual location. But even Alice in Wonderland is considered a “straightforward” story. Just playing “devil’s advocate” today. lol

      • This, I think, highlights the danger inherent in taking ATF comments and reading what we want to read into them. My solution is straight forward in one sense, but it has required years of deep, intense, and lateral thinking to reach its conclusion.

        That conclusion can be displayed in a coherent and “straightforward” solution that is totally logical, but there was nothing easy about it – and it had a heck of a twist in the tail! So I think we need to be careful when we interpret words such as “straightforward.”

        • Exactly Vox. In the end, it seems so easy, but nothing about it was easy. We have to look at every possible angle to find one solution, not easy to do. But, when you find a way, it seems so elementary.

  25. Pedal ligaments artistically lubricated and well illuminated for the infinitesimal remuneration of 5 cents per operation

    • Very astute. But are you talking non-sequential colloquial and positronic aptitude or just the foibles of generic inbreeding?

  26. Happy Anniversary Peggy and Forrest!

    In the meadows there grows,
    Earth’s majestic robe
    of green grass and trees of old,
    flowers decorate the fold
    in hopes you will find one to hold.

  27. Does onyone think a hint in the book could help with more that one clue? For example say Spanish class was a “hint” in the book that maybe some of the English words in the poem could be merried to their Spanish word counterpart on the map. So “Spanish class” would be a hint to that idea and possibly help with 2 or even three clues. (?)

    Yes I know on Jennys he said a Spanish to English dictionary wouldn’t help….but didn’t mention English to Spanish.

    Anyhow, the idea I’m trying to illustrate with that example isnt really about the merits of Spanish vs. English at all and know that’s a seperate debate….just using it as an ANALOGY as to how a “hint” could easily “help” with more than one clue….while “Spanish class” itself wouodnt do anyone any good in getting any closer by itself, jist help hint to how to solve the clues…
    And possibly more than one.

    I.e. does One Hint really even need to apply to just one clue? I havent seen anything that implies it would….

    • Yes?

      Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents “a lack of contrary evidence”), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,
      1.true
      2.false
      3.unknown between true or false
      4.being unknowable (among the first three).

      In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof.

      I think FF has placed the burden of proof on the finder of indulgence.

      • So I take it that you believe what you have just posted is true? Are you appealing to our ignorance?

        • I think he’s technically shifting the burdon of proof to F amd the finder…..a fine display dichotomatic gymnastics. Probably a beast on the uneven bars. Impressive in both form and style. 8.9

          • Jonsey, that shy, retiring exterior doesn’t fool me one bit. I do believe we are in for a real competition! Mind you don’t slip on those uneven bars… 😉

        • Tbug—-

          Just kidding. I’m terrible at logic, though Spock was always my favorite Star Trek character.

    • Lol. Tbug….although I didnt postulate any conclusion so not technically an argument at all…..I try not to make claims based on fallacies and justify them as true. My ego does not require that….though my curiosity can’t resist asking what people think a hint relates to a single clue or if they think a single hint may relate to more than one clue….

      A great man once postulated that good educational system that does not allow its graduates to live within their various competences as in a castle,
      protected by moat and drawbridge, but one that encourages them to look outside, even on occasion to step outside and view their castle from without.

      Maybe there’s something tonbe said for trying to ENJOY….not merely tolerate…but actually enjoy cognitive dissonance and ambiguity.

      ….somehow you strike me as that type, however ;)….so thank you for the smile. I enjoyed your comment more than most I see. Cheers.

      • Jonesy et. al. – I certainly understood you were not making any argument, just posing a chase question, by no means was my response meant to be a ‘downer’, rather I was just pointing out how any ‘answer’ was likely to be just as open ended as the question. I think most here like to discuss the possibilities, I was just reminding us all that logic includes ALL the possibilities, not just yes or no. Also, since I was first on this string I thought I would stir the pot (mission accomplished!)…that said, I don’t have enough information to know if FFs ‘manner’ (as an e.g. double/triple/quad – entendres) could lead one to conclude that a hint could have multiple applications/meanings to clues…it is of course a possibility, and I can see both sides, but what if we simply cannot know that? Also, I very much enjoyed your ‘gymnastics’ analogy…I blew the landing a long time ago, ha!

    • Jonsey1. I don’t think all hints are supporting evidence for most of the clues. My thinking is that many hints are not specific as supportive to any clues but supportive descriptions of the things in the same area and path to the chest. Hints and clues could also be said to be independent in their meaning and usage . A way to say this can be a hint could be a description of something observed along the way to the chest. A clue as being more of a pronounced/specific description of something marking the way to the chest.

      I don’t think many of the hints can be absorbed into the clues . I think most are independent in this way- in the poem and books.

      In m opinion.

      • In the long run it doesn’t matter what any of us think about each others interpretation, in the end if any of us find TC be happy no one else understood our way of thinking and beat us to it. Lol

      • Hi Alt…good post…I like how you were clear in you thoughts.

        If I may add a couple of thoughts I have had.

        A hint in TTotC is something that will lead to an adventure. While trying to relive that adventure, you will unravel what the hint represents. From that point, I now think that within the adventute, you have yet another hint that is also a direct reference to the poem in some way.

        That 2nd “hint” – “within a hint” – and “not deliberately placed” – will lead you to a clue within the poem. Once again, we see how duality can be applied to an answer, but yet still require another answer before we conclude.

        It is sort of like a dream inside a dream, and we need to be observing what the dream is about or how it is referencing the poem.

        Now, as difficult as it will be with doing this, I think this is the avenue we need to take.

        It fits well with TTotC and the duality theme FF seemed to have used.

        Cheers.

        • Thanks Tim. I think I understand what you’re saying and I like the perspective.
          FF quote 2/4/15:
          “nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”

          That was almost 3 years ago now.

          An Archeologist digs up some pottery,cooking tools and then a partial wall. This might indicate there was once a dwelling there. Hints ,along the way to another discovery. The Archeologist finds more walls, more structures more artifacts. Realizes now the area was a village conducive with the multiple architectures around. A poet writes a story today, daydreaming of the life lived in the village in the days past.

          Duality=Time. Same idea. 🙂

          In my opinion.

    • How about this thinking.

      Page 47 ttotc – “Anyways, I made a penny for every paper I sold and it soon added up pretty good. But the sack my eighty pound body had to carry was so heavy it was tiring even to think about it.”

      In the last sentence, we have the words heavy, it and tiring. And pound can refer to the word “loads”. These words appear in some form in the poem.

      You might think that in one sentence, one hint, ff is referring to at least 2 to 3 to more needed solves in the poem.

      And as I think many/most/all of us (who use the book, not only the poem) have figured, we then have to think deeper.

      • The potholes on Canyon certainly could make a case for water high as well. I like the way you think Rob.

        • And maybe even HOB, dirty brown muddy water. But I’ll say I used ff’s reference here to help me with HOB elsewhere.

  28. Charlie M.

    I will try to give you some proof on hints in Stanza 1 that will help you to figure out WWH.

    Canasta means basket. A basket is also a basin. Forrest says paraphrase, if you don’t have the first clue figured out stay home and play Canasta.

    First two lines of poem. I , alone, my. All words that mean Vain. The map on page 99. Next to the two bombs there is a small 1 to the right and if you blow it up looks like a small thermometer. The bombs both have peculiar vanes on them. My war for Me. My and Me , Vain. That story is about wwh- the most important starting clue. There is also a 1 in that story which dictates it’s about the first clue- I am not able to tell you where to find those numbers that reference each story to the clue number. Also SB 99 and 99.5 both talk about wwh. Read 99.5 again. Picture of Vanity, naked by himself. Vanity means Vain. Get acquainted with these terms. Vanity is a Sink. A sink is by definition ” where water collects”. A vanity, sink are both BASINS. Also the many references from weather Vanes.

    Now Forrest says paraphrase about the first clue on Jenny’s site that with it can be expensive Folly.

    Folly and Vain mean foolishness.

    So I have just showed you how the first two lines of the poem give hints that connect with SB, map page 99 and War for Me in TTOTC which is about the first clue.

    Now look at cover of TFTW and think Vainly. That picture is a self image. A picture of self alone.

    Now there are many basins and most of them are north of Santa Fe. We just have to find the correct one that the poor , unfortunate limping Vagabond would have followed. If we can understand weary and where the begger asks we may be able to find indulgence.

    Oh and don’t forget to stay warm , comfortable in the Blanket like the little girl from India uses or the little Indian girl in the Joseph Sharp painting. Just like little pretty Blanket and the Blanket the Nez Perce Indian has gone alone in. They are located in The SB about Doug Hyde.

    • I forgot to mention that Canasta also means to meld as in the game. Now on page 99 Forrest said he melded his special place with his Vietnam experience- paraphrase. Now meld also means to merry. And Forrest says- paraphrase, merry the first clue to a map. Merry, meld and Yoke very interesting words. Not far is near, nigh, close .

    • DPT Charlie(s) and Ken –

      This is why we ask people to share their ideas.
      It gives us a a chance to say.

      NO

      There is no way, no chance, whatsoever, that Fenn intends what this chaser thinks. From there we can discuss what Fenn might mean. Maybe there are some good ideas in the above??

      This is why Tbug says Vox and JDA cannot be helped and based on a response today I no longer think Zap is objective either. The first two can’t see it in the mirror and I have always thought previously that Zap could.

      Lugnutz

      • Lug, how can you say No. No way, no chance, whatsoever what Fenn intends?
        Unless you have the chest in hand how can you be sure on what he intends?
        I have just tried to connect what he has placed in his writings and what he has said and tried to connect or meld them. I have been wrong before and I will always stay objective until I know for sure.

        To Me that is a good and viable way to try and solve the poem.

        • I try to listen good and pay attention to what Forrest has said and is writing. When he uses the same examples again and again. Like the Bum, Vagabond, Hobo, poor unfortunate one in a lot of his stories.
          He even said he was going to name TFTW , chasing a Vagabond and he was going to dress up as a bum at the masquerade party but Peggy wouldn’t let him. To be Vain is idle, a vagabond. A loafer. A bum. An unfortunate person with no purpose or good sense.
          Why do you think Forrest uses ME most of the time and in the wrong context?

        • DPT I am expressing my opinion of your ideas.
          It’s too complicated firstly.

          And then also your ideas could be applied to multiple areas. This is precisely why I ask people to share. If you say well these photos, ATF comments and SBs lead me to Great Sand Dunes National Park I can say Look DPT those same ideas lead me to Browns Canyon.

          Some people can’t agree on what color the sky is, so we don’t have a starting point. Stay home and play canasta is like something an old man says. An old man in a movie with terrible actors that all sound the same. Guys that made 250 movies in a career and shot them 4 at a time on the backlot. IT means exactly what he says and doesn’t mean basket. Why would you go so far to draw meaning from that phrase? Why make this more complicated than it already is?

          I am not asking you to get a n answer, I’m asking so that you think about it.

          Lisa is another person who cannot accept criticism or even base logic. The wonderlust grabs people and it comes with blinders. Read you idea if see if you can hear Fenn explaining it that way after you find the chest.

          Lugnutz

          • Lug,
            I get what your saying and I agree with you some of what you said. You make good points.
            But I also believe that some of the words Forrest uses are very vague in the poem and could mean about any wwh in the Rockies. So I believe we have to find out which specific one. Which Forrest says is difficult but not impossible. To me that sounds like parts of it are complicated and almost impossible.
            Thanks for your insight Lug, always appreciated.

      • A reminder – don’t search on private property or where it’s not legal. Some of the overlay appears to show private property – don’t search there.

        There’s probably winter conditions at this location too, so don’t search there when it’s not 100% safe.

        Stay safe. These depictions and overlays are just for fun and entertainment only. These are NOT serious solves.

        • It should be said that your “private property” comment is an opinion. While those areas are no place for the timid Mr Fenn never said the chest is not on private property.

          • But he did say;

            “I always get permission before forwarding it to Dal to post.” – SB 69

            “To get to the exact spot we received permission to take a fence down, drive cross-country through gullies……..”. – SB 104

            “I told her I would like to have permission to fly the general’s F-86F.” – SB 168

            Take care………Pinatubocharlie

          • randawg,

            I guess we might hear of you being in custody of the Sheriff for trespassing. Which shows in your timid comment, sounds like there is no respect for private property. Wait, Whaaat? 🙂

            I sincerely hope that you and others are respectful and I can’t imagine F putting the TC on private property. What a legal quagmire that would be.

            Just saying 🙂 Stay warm

          • He also had ‘tacit’ (implied without being stated) permission to climb over a low wall and into a 2,000 year old back yard.
            And he was thrown out of Pompeii three times was he not?
            It would seem that Mr Fenn is not afraid of occasionally trespassing.
            IMO.

          • I agree with you CharlieM.
            I think searchers should obey all laws and obtain permission if they intend to look on private property. 😉
            (Mr Fenn said”: “What if there’s not a legal question?”)

      • Covert One –

        Is there anywhere on the defined area that anything could be left to find? This is a map of literally the most searched area.

        maybe?

        Fits one of my ideas. When Fenn said FOr Whom the Bell Tolls but he was actually referencing A Farewell to Arms I think the clue/hint is AFTA whereas Zap took the clue to be FWTBT. And here we are between the Arms, right?

        DPT is going to ask why this is OK but his idea isn’t. Well, it’s about not over complicating the Man or his Puzzle.

        Lugnutz

  29. Tom B
    I think, in the end, if the solution is made known, that it will be something that most of us will say “I should have gotten that”.

    Totally agree!

  30. JDA—

    Never mind—-wasn’t that important. You had mentioned in the past about moving stanza 5 and 6 on top of stanza 1. I was wondering if you had pursued that any further. That’s all I wanted to ask. Good luck with your search!!!!

    • I sent you an email. Answer to your question – YES, that is now my format – 5,6,1,2,3,4 – 5,6 and 1 are hints – 2,3,4 are clues – JDA

      • JDA—-

        Thanks—-haven’t seen the e-mail yet—but I wanted to tell you that I think that is a very good choice. Makes good sense. All the best to you!

        • Sorry you didn’t get the email – My address is SculptorJDA at aol dot com. Glad you like the format – JDA

          • JDA—

            Thanks—I did get it—went to my spam for some reason. I will e-mail you again later from my work address—I am having problems with yahoo for some reason. Thanks for responding.

      • JDA,

        I understand what you are doing, however 1 and 5, IMO have no hints as I believe they are 1, and introductory and 5 is a statement as to why F hid the TC, which is clearly answered in TTOTC.

        I do agree that 2,3, & 4 contain clues, but 6 contains clues also.

        If you are using 5,6,1,2,3,4 as your order of doing things, I think that is messed up and messing with the poem.

        I hope you follow the order of the poem as it is written.

        Just say’n, as always my opinion 🙂

        • CharlieM;

          As I have expressed before, It is my opinion that the architecture of the poem is a circle – Stanza #6 feeds back into stanza #1.

          IF (and that is a big IF) this is correct, that it is a circle, does it matter where you start? Where does a circle begin – anywhere around its perimiter. This being the case, I do not see that starting the poem at the start of Stanza #5 is “Messin’ with the poem”. I keep all of the stanza’s intact, and with no changes to any of the lines in the poem. I keep the punctuation the same.

          Asking the question, “So why is it that I must go And leave my trove for all to seek? – Seems (to me) like a logical place to start.

          The end result of this change is that:
          “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
          Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
          But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
          Just take the chest and go in peace.” becomes the last lines of the poem – which makes sense to me.

          I could be wrong, but I like the new format, and it works – JDA

          • JDA,

            I disagree with your method because wwh is the first clue and the end clue is “in the wood”. The blaze is not the end of the clues. “look quickly down” is a hint.

            There is no beginning or an end in a circle.

            IMO

          • “There is no beginning or an end in a circle.”

            And that is why “the end is ever drawing nigh”.

          • Charlie – I agree- “Begin it… is the first clue, and I say that.

            Who says that “In the wood” is the last clue”? You may think that it is, but that does not make it a fact, so please do not state it as fact – Thanks – JDA

          • JDA,

            Once again, “It is my opinion” –I clearly state that in my posts.

            Please– Mine and yours are different, it’s a discussion. 🙂

  31. New to the chase, I am. I’ve been trying to sort out one basic premise…FF lugged the box and contents from a parking spot to the site it now is in repose in two trips, in one day. Is the poem a description of this path? Or, is the poem an invitation to find a defined starting point (other than a parking spot) and then follow a route that is “too far to walk”. This seems to indicate some dissonance. It weren’t too far for our benefactor to walk-in his own words…yet, the poem indicates that the route to the treasure includes a portion that is too far to walk…
    How to resolve this conundrum?

    • over 40-
      Many folks believe that neither Forrest nor a searcher begins walking til the “Put in…” direction.
      That is to say that you identify WWWH and from that place you take it in the canyon down with your vehicle (bike, car, map or whatever) because it is too far to walk..
      So the place to park is below the HOB and from there you are walking and probably finding the remainder of the places represented by the rest of the clues in the poem, on foot.
      This may or may not be the method to use but it is what many steadfastly believe and employing this method seems to have a certain logic that is Forrest friendly based on other remarks he has made about the route to the chest.

      • Dal/Over 40,
        I personally believe that Mr Fenn did not even drive the whole route described in the poem when he secreted the treasure. In my opinion, he drove/walked the route many times when writing the poem, but during the last trip, he walked from his car less than 0.5 mile (2 return trips = less than 2 miles). I know, this position is contradictory to some of his statements, but there is a way to resolve it. The plot here is similar to a good comedy where an author creates a plot with two contradictory threads discussed two different parties. Only the author and audience know the whole story and have a good laugh. Just think how many contradictions will go away if this is fully resolved.
        The above is just my opinion.

        • LittleIndianGirl,
          I don’t believe that he drove/walked at all when creating the poem, because that was not necessary. Way too familiar with the spot to do that. Yet ,what rings true is the remainder of your points. IMHO. However, I am still hung up with that blog name, not believing… (you are little, Indian or a girl) .

          • LMN,
            Weĺl, I’m a female, born in India (still living in Asia) and I’m 5’4″ tall. So, don’t you think that based on this alone, I do have a right to call myself LtleIndianGrl?
            Going back to the poem, based on your comment I have the impression you do not appreciate the poem’s complexity. Mr Fenn took 15 years to create it. In my opinion, significant part of this time was spent on mapping the area. By mapping I mean scouring the area looking for distinctive features to code them into his poem. As I mentioned before, I belive the area covered by poem to be in excess of 200 square miles. If this is the case, it would take significant amount of time to drive/hike the area looking for distinct features to be coded into the poem. But, again this is just my opinion.

          • Hi Little Indy…..

            You wrote:

            If this is the case, it would take significant amount of time to drive/hike the area looking for distinct features to be coded into the poem. But, again this is just my opinion.

            An I understanding this to be….FF was right….you can’t get past the first two clues?

            :o)

            Secondly….I can see why you cant, especially if what you say is true…..your solve requires you to have BOTG …..because you even say so….

            “In my opinion, significant part of this time was spent on mapping the area. By mapping I mean scouring the area looking for distinctive features to code them into his poem. ”

            I agree…..with FF and now with you confirming it…..

            You cannot get past the first two clues without BOTG.

            Thank you.

          • Zap

            I can’t see what you are responding to from the email I received.

            If you are referring the the Bunsen Peak solve I no longer consider it valid, it served as an example.

            Recently I mentioned that one need not walk or drive the solve. It may be possible to see the locations on the map and then only find the blaze on foot. Did I mention that in the same comment you are responding to?

            I am 100 emails behind, see ya down canyon!

            Lugnutz

        • LIG,
          Here’s a thought… What if he already had a framework for the poem and used that to help him write it? Remember that as a child he went off on horseback trying to follow the path of Lewis and Clark? If that were the case, he wouldn’t need to drive or walk any of it, because it had been done by someone else. He also mentions ‘A journal of a Trapper.’

          Also, this could be the source of a ‘good map’.

          I have been working on my solve since July. I made my first BOTG trip to the search area but heavy rains prevented me from searching the area I wanted to. When I returned home, I really started studying my solve and discovered that I had only skimmed the surface of the information. I found something that matched the poem… and I could pinpoint places on a map (or marry them)

          At this point, I’m to the blaze… and I think I have a good idea where and what it is.

          So, I think FF may have walked or driven the route but he was not the first. I think he already had a foundation for the poem and he built off of it.

          Of course, this is all IMO

          Stay warm, search safe…

          TimM

          • TimM,
            I agree with you about the spot where Mr Fenn hid the treasure. He new this spot very well for a very long time. Mr Fenn has said – (paraphrasing ) ‘ the destination is small but the whole area is large’. In my opinion the poem is mapped to a very large geographical area (more than 200 square miles). Just ask yourself why so many searchers over the last 9 years have not been able to find the treasure? If the whole area was walkable, as some searches think, Dal or Digging Gypsy would have found it few years ago. The above is my opinion only.

          • LIG, you offer wise words, but I suspect few will heed them.

            Btw, which one of the 29 Indian states do you come from?

          • Lugnutz,
            I would keep your current name, in my opinion it suits you better. Somehow I always associate it with a nut.

    • Over 40
      Great questions!
      Please don’t lock yourself into those two questions.
      There could’ve another “or”
      Which you have not considered.
      There also, could be another “or” which you have not considered.
      And so on…
      Try reading the poem and studying it and focusing on 9 clues.
      It is Mr. Fenn’s finished work and in my opinion will lead us/somebody/you/me/ablogger
      On a fun adventure.
      Buckle up, at home, and get ready for a great ride.

    • Over 40, you raise an interesting point – but you don’t need to be Uri Geller to know the answer. The poem is always the authority. It tells you that it’s too far to walk – at least as far hoB. From there, you make the choice, but it’s interesting that the poem doesn’t tell you to resume walking. However, it does tell you there’ll be no paddling!

      So for me, once I’d latched onto the concept of the “big picture,” it was clear that we’re not talking about a Sunday afternoon stroll. Maybe I think of myself as a passenger seated alongside the ace!

    • ~ To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f (posted 6/5/2107)

      Some may say fenn didn’t finish writing the poem as of 2009 or 10, prior to the release of the book TTOTC.
      Personally I think the poem was done many years before those dates. [ in written form ] The questions now are;
      Did fenn have to wait for something?
      Or
      Did fenn need to actually follow the clues during a certain time of year? [although that certain time of year could be known of prior ]
      Or even,
      fenn used the clues, in such a manner, as to be precise -?- [exact] of a 10″ sq piece of hidden property.

      As far as “not far, but too far to walk”… if all you’re going to do is consider a physical traveling… you might over look something else, the line might be relaying.

      If you want to get down to the nitty-gritty… what is needed imo, is to figure out how many physical places the clues represent. Many attempt at 9 clues must be 9 places. I think there is much less, and for the most part, I think it all could be one very small location. But, it may take a hike to get to the clues.

      Knowing fenn parked a car somewhere is of no help to me. The factors I attempt to utilize is … walked twice, less-than a few miles and done in the same day [one afternoon]. As well as fenn telling us we should be able to walk several hours to our solve… The only real question here is… How close could fenn get to where he stopped with a vehicle? But that will never be answered until the poem is solved.

      To be honest… IF alternate transportation is needed [other tan walking] for traveling clues, I’d quit the challenge right now. The whole point was to get folks out… not in a mom’s taxi with music and TV and hand held games and cell phones to past the time traveling 10 or 20 or 200 miles between clues. But that’s just me.

      End of commentary….

      • Seeker;

        I like your line: “As far as “not far, but too far to walk”… if all you’re going to do is consider a physical traveling… you might over look something else, the line might be relaying.”

        I agree, I think that there is hidden meaning in these words. JMO – JDA

      • Good thoughts for sure…I only question your assumption/interpretation of Fenn’s “…several hours…” comment.
        Isn’t it possible…given the events of the time…that Fenn was not setting a walk time limit by using “…several hours…”? He could have been just commenting on the long arduous treks that have been presented by searchers…and without giving any tangible hints…he says…if you need to walk more than several hours in an afternoon(2 round trips) you need to rethink that?
        *Also…another logical interpretation of Fenn’s …”…although I hid it before the poem was complete.” could be rather simple. He could be simply saying…I did follow the clues and hid the treasure…and this was done BEFORE the poem ended. Like…the treasure was hidden right after the blaze part of the poem…where he looked down?
        *As more time passes I become more aligned with the idea that the clues point to a larger general area…which as the clues progress…points to the WWH/canyon/hob place…..which conceivably could also be at, or very close to creek/HLAWH.
        The devil is in the details and won’t be known until the light comes on!

        • Ken,
          The hypothetical done before the end of the poem doesn’t really take into consideration three stanzas … Looking at the poem the way most do.

          That’s not to say you’re not correct… I need more for me to say that.

          • Seeker…My two posts this morning…in response to yours, and one commenting to the quote in Tim’s post pretty much sum it up.
            In Both instances… your Fenn quote…and Tim’s Fenn quote…my explanation/interpretation is less invasive in many ways. By invasive, I mean it takes way less gray matter for it to make sense and still fit the bill for a searcher to move “straight forward” without having to manipulate the presented poem…nor does it make Fenn’s comments complicated to understand. Coincidentally…both you and Tim made comments that brought this same concept up.
            Let’s face it Seeker…there have been many folks working on this and one would think it should get easier…but *I think* the more ‘info and ideas” out there just makes folks take a harder look than necessary. Maybe that’s why Fenn has implied it will be a head slapper!
            Who says the *punch line* has to be at the end !? Or…who says the poem has to be read out of order for the clues to be *understood in order*!?
            Fenn has made it a point to let folks know that he doesn’t follow the crowd in a conventional way…or… that he doesn’t find it amusing to follow the same *trails* as others.
            The switch is coming into view….or maybe…the guillotine!

        • Seeker…here is an easier way to see what I mean.
          How many movies have you watched that start out with a scene that is actually something that either happened long before the movie, or, is telling something that happens later on in the movie? Keep in mind…this may be important info for later understanding.
          At this point, the movie shifts into what leads up to that point, or, goes back to another time, and so on. ALL of the “scenes” are necessary to understand the movie.
          * At this juncture, are you compelled to edit the movie to your liking? Or, fast forward to see the end ? Or, go complain and get your money back? LOL…or fall asleep?
          You have mentioned similar styles of writing before…or eluded to this same idea at least.
          Without “messing” with the poem…rearranging Fenn’s art work…I think this could work and still “utilize” all of the stanzas as intended.
          Didn’t Fenn mention movie stars? Maybe wanting to be one? Didn’t he say something about how the opera changed gears at the crux of it? Call me crazy! I think I may be!

      • Seeker, you said: “To be honest… IF alternate transportation is needed [other tan walking] for traveling clues, I’d quit the challenge right now. The whole point was to get folks out… not in a mom’s taxi with music and TV and hand held games and cell phones to past the time traveling 10 or 20 or 200 miles between clues. But that’s just me.”

        Why does traveling a (too far to walk) distance between clues preclude walking after you arrive at each clue area? I had to walk to locate the precise spot for each clue. Usually only a short or moderate walk was required, but they were frequently in magnificent locations that fully embraced the Fenn philosophy. Most people have to drive to get to the Rockies, so why not a drive between clues?

        As far as additional information in the NFBTFTW line, I agree with you.

        • Vox,
          simply because fenn has put in his comments; “he walk” to the hide twice in one afternoon… “he” followed the clue “when he hid the chest — two trips.
          Tells us… folks got the first couple clues correct and “unfortunately, walked past the treasure chest”
          Why is it that many like the idea that driving is involved? Maybe because they can’t wrap there heads around how NFBTFTW could mean something else?

          If driving clue are involved then we can start a Glacier national park [ more precise. waterton lake], drive down be below Canada, drive thru YSP, pass CO rocky [RM NP] mountain high and into New and Old Mexico.

          All the clues match to the landscape if you think about it… all involving N, which would be a heck of a tour… But where’s the walking??? The hiking? the exploring? the adventure?

          Well, I guess you can take some nice pics as you slowly drive by… and I doubt that anyone would need to travel the clues “twice” Like we have been told.

      • Seeker,

        I believe you over think the poem and it’s creator. If Forrest parked his car all afternoon at the place where warm waters halt, Then why use the term “too far to walk”?

        (use your imagination for this)

        Let’s imagine a road which follows the top of a canyon. At the beginning point, you stop and look at the spot where you believe warm waters halt. Then you clearly see the road follows the canyon further down (or up) to where it is adjacent to the home of Brown.

        Now if that distance is 3 or 4 miles (just my idea) and you could avoid walking it, then why not drive to that point?

        So, if you must stick with your contention that no driving is needed upon arrival to the area, how do you define Fenn’s term, “too far to walk”?

        This is all meant as healthy debate, not as a put down or as ridicule. Just remember,

        “Imagination is more important than Knowledge”

        Franklin

        • That’s logical, Franklin. I think we could all use a little more logic, and a lot more imagination.

        • Franklin: I’ve tried this exact same explanation of logic to Seeker on more than one occasion, but he won’t accept it. He is firm in his belief that you will walk all of the clues — not just some of them — twice in an afternoon.

          I will concede this much: you *could* walk the whole darn thing if you wanted the exercise and wanted to enjoy the extra time in nature (while lugging 20+ awkward lbs. on your back for half the total distance). But if you choose to walk all the clues, in my opinion you’re not going to finish those two trips in an afternoon.

        • My thoughts of NFBTFTW, considers ‘time’… we are told that we might want to brush up on are geography, right? If you want to know about the RM’s… you need to go back in ‘time’.

          Would you consider fenn’s memoirs to possibly mean… Not far back in time, but too far to walk, because you simply can’t go there, physically, in that time period… however… you can go to the same places today and observe it for the first ‘time’ in two ‘time’ periods.

          The concept is easy to understand, and doesn’t force an unknown distance or have to wait 3 years or later for the correct distance to be mentioned in a later book…. That is the point. How can you claim any distance as to how far a walk is? There is no reference to a distance in the poem, and we have many miles of distance to guess from the book… 90 mile, 20 miles, down the road from the families home to the cemetery etc. Pick one, any one,.. it’s still only working on a hunch.

          But the most important factor we now have been told is, fenn ‘followed the clues to hide the chest’ – TWICE. Why in the world would he need to drive back to any clue, rinse and repeat -Twice?

          • Seeker: Forrest has never said he followed ALL the clues on foot, either once or twice. He followed “the clues”: could be 9, could be just 2. You object to WWWH not being the parking spot. I agree that you certainly CAN park there, but it wouldn’t be very sage if your goal is to retrieve the chest in the easiest manner.

          • Zap,
            I don’t see how anyone can truly say fenn drove clues as many say they have solves that do just that. It doesn’t matter how many physical places a clue[s] refers to… what matter is… fenn stated he walked to the hide and he followed the clues to get to the hide…

            I’ll add another comment;
            … I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map.f.

            Funny thing is; “Clues” marry “them” to “A” place [ not places ] on a map.

            Maybe it’s just me, but when you add up all the comments about hiding the chest, and suggestion of what a searcher need to attempt… it all points to one place… Not a region, not many states, and all on a single map, not maps laid-over other maps.

            Like I posted earlier;
            He “walked” less than a few miles.
            Make two trips from is car, to follow the clues.
            Tells us we need to follow the clues.
            Tells us we should be able to “walk” several hours- twice- to are solve.
            Has said it took him one afternoon to do that walking… which kinda matches our several hours – twice- for a same time span.

            If you want to use a vehicle and travel clues, great. But ya haven’t shown a logical reasoning for the need… other than you might have the wrong idea of too far to walk.
            What is so funny about all this is; the ‘drivers theory’ of clues warps the heck out of fenn’s many ATF comments; about ‘his walking out clue’ ‘our walking out clues’ and ‘prior searchers on location walking past all the clues and the chest’

            You know these comments and quotes… but I’d be will to list the 10 or more comments on the topic if ya like… and not one mentions driving clues.

            So, how can you say; ‘ But if you choose to walk all the clues, in my opinion you’re not going to finish those two trips in an afternoon.’

            Fenn stated he did just that… how the heck can ya say different??? Your comment is not only a poor opinion… it is completely opposite of what fenn stated he actually did.

            You said fenn didn’t say he followed all the clues… ok he stated he “followed the clues” lol he did say some of the clues… so what does logical tell you he meant as to what clues are? 2 – 5? Or 9 clues he consistently tells us we need to follow. { if you want to debate how many physical places there might be, that’s a whole other topic }.

            Show me, in all good intent by fenn’s comments, how a vehicle is needed for two trips??? Cuz that is what we have been told is needed… ‘for following the “clues”‘

          • Seeker: it just seems so obvious to me that you drive to WWWH, you drive the canyon down (not far, but too far to WALK – hint, hint!), and then you put in (i.e PARK) below home of Brown. The driving is now done. You’re on foot the rest of the way. Twice, if need be.

            There is absolutely nothing that Forrest has ever said that contradicts this interpretation of the proper chain of events, and it is the simplest reading of the words in the poem, in my opinion. Quite straightforward.

        • Franklin – I believe Seeker’s point about NFBTFTW is that it can be a description rather than movement (if you use your imagination). IMO

      • Seeker,
        You said:
        ~ To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f (posted 6/5/2107)
        The above comment from Mr Fenn is a typical example of fine comedy where two (in this case 3 plots) contradict each other. In my opinion, in the above sentence, Mr Fenn does not refer to the ‘INDULGENCE’. I’m not willing to say more at this moment as this would give a huge advantage to people that were already in the area.
        For your other points:
        I agree with you that the poem was finished long time ago before the chest was hidden.
        NFBTFTW to me has 2 meanings. One of them is a distance.
        In my opinion, after the initial driving, a searcher must do lots of hiking to get to the chest. But, at the end with a correct solution, a searcher will not need to walk more than 0.5 mile to retrieve the chest. All of the above is my opinion only.

          • locolobo,
            My statement ‘lots of hiking’ doesn’t mean hiking long distances. In my solution the whole area is accessible from nearby roads. On the other hand, people who stick with ‘whole poem walkable solution ‘ won’t do much hiking. Hiking for couple of hours to get to the chest wasn’t his idea of family fun. Again, all of the above is just my perception of the poem.

        • Little Indy,
          Even though you’re not willing to say why…
          I just want clarification… are you implying the treasure chest is not Indulgence -?- even though fenn has told us he named the “treasure chest” indulgence.

          Have you ever consider had to ‘complete’ or ‘completed?’ the solve…to mean… there’s work on site we must do or observe or plan for? That idea of certainty of the path beforehand, to mean, knowing what to do.
          And we may have to do the same to finalize the correct solution.

          • The poem tells us that it is “too far to walk” from warm waters to below Home of Brown. I Interpret this as too far to REASONABLY walk, not impossible to walk. So, is it possible to walk from the beginning to the end (treasure)?. I would say yes, it’s possible, but not necessary. I assume that for Fenn, it’s too far to walk (as the poem says),and that he walked at most from home of Brown to the treasure, and probably not even that far. That’s how I see it.

          • Tom B,
            Sure, I can see that as a possibility.
            However, is it the only possible conclusion?
            The first complete sentence in stanza 2 could be talking strictly about the waters.
            The second stand alone sentence simply stated, put in below…

            If I said; Start at the water tower and take it in the canyon down… could that not refer to the piping that goes in the canyon
            [ basically a ditch… high sides and lower bottom, depending on perception of what is there, line of thinking].
            And add; Put in below the hoB as where the water tower sits? – example- the ‘correct’ water tower [out of all the possible water towers] sits below Mr. Browns home.

            Is that taking the clues out of order, or just reading the poem as instruction and observation of the ares of the “correct” wwwh?

            So, is it possible that stanza 2 is talking about, what is around a searcher at the first clue reference? And the searcher hasn’t taken one step yet…. So in theory, 4 clues equal one place… and “from there”… is a second place… “no place for the meek”

            This idea doesn’t force any unknown distance for NFBTFTW [ but explains what the water does ] and doesn’t force every clue to be a place that needs stomping or driving to.
            In fact, in this theory, the next stanza might only be describing what HLaWh is.

            LOL.. that makes two places out of 8 lines, right? But a lot of folks won’t be able to see that as a possibility, and I’m ok with that… I’m just here to BS about the possible WhatIF’s. Nothing more.

          • Hi Seeker,
            The answer to your first question is yes. In my solution I consider them to be two different things. For the second question, once you resolve (figure out ) the chest/treasure contradiction you will know what Mr Fenn meant by saying (paraphrasing ) ‘I hid the chest before the poem was completed’.
            In my opinion the treasure chest was hidden in 2009 or 2010 long after the poem was completed. For a while I thought the chest was hidden on the 5th of June 2009, but unfortunately this contradicts his statement of the chest being hidden during summer.

          • Ahem…Seeker, your 4 clues/ one place scenario does not fit any of the ATF check and balance criteria.
            If folks figured out the first two clues…blah blah blah…how could that magically become “4” in your scenario…?

          • Hi LIG:

            “For a while I thought the chest was hidden on the 5th of June 2009, but unfortunately this contradicts his statement of the chest being hidden during summer.”

            I’m afraid t contradicts it worse than that: Forrest was 78 on 5 June 2009. He says he was 79 or 80 (and if you believe Doug Preston, then Forrest could not have been 80).

            Independent of that, I think it’s a mistake to assume that Forrest couldn’t have hidden the chest on June 5th, or any day in June for that matter. In Forrest’s parlance, “summer” could be any day in June, July or August.

  32. Thanks for the feedback, everyone. I don’t want to beat this to death, but I’m torn on how to approach the poem and what to do with it. On one hand, FF seems to have placed the chest in an area that was very familiar to him and is so enamored that he is okay with it being his final resting place. This place is within the walking ability of an 80 y.o. from a parking spot. On the other hand, the poem seems to direct the seekers to a starting point—not a parking spot? From there, the poem seems to guide the seeker ‘over the river and through the woods’ kind of route. Did FF ever actually follow the path that is described in the poem? Perhaps in his younger years? Was the trek so memorable at the time FF was able to recall enough detail to pen the poem? The part that causes dissonance is-couldn’t someone bypass the ‘scenic route’ and just trace footsteps from FF’s parking spot and ‘cut to the chase’, if they were really dialed in to the mind of the author? Again, I don’t wish to bore readers here with details that have been dealt with previously, but I’ve looked around on the web and this issue doesn’t seem to have been discussed much, nor resolved.

    • Over 40;

      Here is the answer to your question:
      “My question is… when the treasure was hidden, did you follow the clues just like they are mentioned in the poem or did you just go to where you wanted to hide it, knowing that the poem would lead someone there? Does that make sense? ~Tim

      Tim,
      I knew from the beginning where to hide the treasure. It wasn’t until later that the clues were provided to find that spot. I don’t know “…that the poem will lead someone there,” as you asked, but the poem does provide everyone with that opportunity. f

      Here is another:
      Question posted 6/20/2014:

      I have a question for Mr. Fenn:

      When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?

      Thank you Curtis

      The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f

      And one more:
      Q. When you wrote the poem, did you start with the first clue or the ninth?

      A. ” I knew all along where I wanted to hide the treasure so I didn’t need a map or any information to write the poem. Everything was in my head. It took me a while to get the wording exactly how I wanted it. Counting the clues and hiding the chest came later. It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, at least in their mind.”

      Hope that these quotes answer your question.

      http://www.Tarryscant.com is a wonderful resource – JDA

      • Here’s one more from Jenny’s Mysterious Writings blog, under periodic words RESOURCE page, 6/5/17:

        “To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f “

    • Over 40…what you say has been flogged to pieces for years ! The only real hard truth so far is that the first clue is…BIWWWH. After that everything becomes pure conjecture and at best…nothing more than a theory. There are those that believe that their solve is “The One”. I’ve been in that category and it took years to realize that when “The Correct” solve shows it’s face…there will be no lingering or drawn out theories, or guess work involved…The light will come on and then it is go time.
      Given the enormity of The Rocky Mountains north of Santa Fe…Fenn could hide that dang chest just about anywhere and be sure that no one would stumble on it. That’s the beauty of this game! Hide and Seek on a grand scale !
      Dal’s blog has so much stored data that includes tons of Fenn quotes, videos, interviews, searcher stories, Scrap Book tidbits from Fenn, many blog threads to peruse and the list is endless. Dig in and have some fun….
      It’s the thrill of the Chase!

    • Hey Over 40.

      I don’t think you have read enough of the forums in the hoD.

      Your topics have been discussed in detail in the past.

      Did FF ever actually follow the path that is described in the poem?
      Yes.

      Perhaps in his younger years?
      Yes….and to hide the trove in his senior years.

      Was the trek so memorable at the time FF was able to recall enough detail to pen the poem?
      Uhm…subjective. We don’t know if FF has memory loss at times or not. Probably not, based upon all that I have read.

      “The part that causes dissonance is-couldn’t someone bypass the ‘scenic route’ and just trace footsteps from FF’s parking spot and ‘cut to the chase’, if they were really dialed in to the mind of the author?”

      That’s the rub, huh?

      Have tried remote viewing?

      Be the chest.

      :O)

      Good luck to you. Be safe in your travels.

  33. Over 40, you said: “Did FF ever actually follow the path that is described in the poem? Perhaps in his younger years?”

    Only FF can answer that question (Forrest, are you there?), but I believe he did – just not to hide Indulgence. He took the means of transport that was appropriate to the geography.

    Then you said: “The part that causes dissonance is-couldn’t someone bypass the ‘scenic route’ and just trace footsteps from FF’s parking spot and ‘cut to the chase’, if they were really dialed in to the mind of the author?”

    Your last phrase is the most pertinent, IMO. But to be dialed in to that extent, they’d need to have been paying such acute attention over the past few years, that their brains would have exploded by now. 🙂

    I’ve stated my opinion before: the Chase is designed in such a way that it’s almost (but not completely) impossible to bypass anything and find the resting place. This is the beauty of the architecture. It’s designed to get you out there, finding what ISN’T there, adjusting, and continuing until you’ve completed the drawing and found the key.

    Of course, the author could drop so many ATF hints that an observant searcher might just circumvent the entire process. But would they feel they’d cheated themselves? Probably not, knowing human nature.

  34. For those that believe the first stanza of the poem only includes a straightforward narrative of the history of f hiding the tc before the Chase began, some backstory, that doesn’t also include some hidden and critical information on how to solve the poem to find the tc…here’s two quotes:

    *Will the poem lead you to the treasure? Yes, if you know where to start.

    *Hello Forrest,

    If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?

    Thank you ~Nope
    Thank you Nope. Nope. f

    The easy way to look at it is to see that the only difference that f has had to deal with from the two questions is to remove any backstory from the poem for his nope nope reply. That only difference has made the poem, that was once sovable on its own and able to lead one to the tc, now unreasonable to just use the words in the poem and find the treasure chest. I’d say that backs up my position that the first stanza has a hint in it.

    • I disagree Fund…what if he is simply replying that the finder has to do it…put boots on the ground…to actually pick up the chest…to ‘just use the words’ does not physically put you out there…just my opinion…its classic doublespeak, he’s not wrong/lying, but his answer is not straightforward/plain English either.

      • Tbug, I’d say you haven’t squared that with f’s first quote that I quoted…

        *Will the poem lead you to the treasure? Yes, if you know where to start.

        The poem, and only the poem, was good enough then for f to say it’ll lead you to the treasure.

    • FD….
      Fenn has talked himself blue in the face about his poem. I believe it is fairly safe to say that if any words in the poem are discounted…there is little hope of locating the treasure.
      That certainly includes the first stanza….and all of the stanzas that follow.
      I think the resistance to folks “agreeing ” with you is just the presentation and nothing more.
      I do take note of how the Chase has evolved. Fenn has changed the initial claim that Only the poem is needed…or at least made that more clear. Also…things have changed in regards to whether his other recent books are helpful.
      I guess if one sticks around long enough…more things will come to light. Anyways…good luck.

    • I believe that the only way one would know where to start is if they had married the answer to the first clue to a place on a map. Therefore, from that point forward they would be using just the words in the poem and the right map. And maybe that is what was missing in Nope’s question, the right map.

      • Or f could be referring to the importance of the first clue like he so often does.

        As far as I know the closest person to the treasure was a man, but there may have been a woman with him. The most common mistake that I see searchers make is that they underestimate the importance of the first clue. If you don’t have that one nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta.f

        • @FD, your writings give the impression that you place a high importance on the “back story”.

          Is this true?

          • Good question, the Wanderer.
            I can remember placing importance in the backstory when I first heard of the Chase. I remember not continuing with the Chase after reading the backstory and the poem. The backstory said in the mountains North of Santa Fe at the time. That was not enough to convince me of where any sort of boundary was north of Santa Fe.

          • When I read the term “back story” in Nopes question, along with the context clues (mountains, 9 clues, etc) it seems that Nope is asking if someone found the poem with no backstory of the treasure (i.e. they don’t there was a guy named forrest who hid a chest and clues etc) it makes complete sense why there are two different answers.

            The first quote F responds that that person could find the treasure with the poem only IF they knew where to start. This implies the first person knows to LOOK FOR IT in the first place.

            The question from Nope assumes that that person has NO backstory. They would not even know there WAS a hunt, clues, or a real chest. Of course they couldn’t be reasonably expected to find the treasure….they don’t even know they are supposed to LOOK FOR IT.

            Personally I dont see anything mildly confusing or contradictory about Fs two statements at all.

            Theres tons of poems about treasures that are just that. Creative writing and poetry. With no backstory of Forrest and a real treasure I doubt any person could reasonably be expected to assume there was a real chest and then also FIND IT?!?…..jeez. We all KNOW the story and he thinks its reasonable we may not even find it for 1000 plus years. How the heck could he possibly answer affirmatively that a person with no knowledge of the back story of the treasure would Look AND find it just because they saw a random poem 500 years from now with no history of context??

            Seems his answer is pretty simple to understand. NOPE. they couldn’t.

          • @FD, so you no longer place importance on the back story, or has some new information or interpretation changed your thoughts?

          • Jonesy…That’s exactly where I’m coming from! Everything that man says has all of the elements of truth within. *It appears* more and more apparent that we readers are the ones confusing the issues. Really great post….

          • But that’s not how I framed my post…Jamie Jones seems to have a knack for trying to make a case for something that isn’t really what
            the op states…I clearly started my post with “For those that believe the first stanza of the poem only includes a straightforward narrative of the history of f hiding the tc before the Chase began, some backstory, that doesn’t also include some hidden and critical information on how to solve the poem to find the tc…here’s two quotes:

            That clearly refers to the ones in the last few days that told me the “first stanza in the poem” is just the history of f secreted the tc before the Chase. History, backstory and the first stanza is just an introduction are synonymous.

            If they were right then and the first stanza is just adds details of the history of f and no hint then I’m still correct because of this OP. If they were wrong to begin with I’m right also.

            The nope question has in it “no backstory”. That would include anything any searcher feels is just an introduction or history that doesn’t have any further value. Those searchers can’t have it both ways…

          • the Wanderer, yes I would think one needs to always try to stay true to the previous details given that outline the Chase.

          • FD…I think you are still looking for someone to agree with what you presented…and how you presented it.
            I am not picking and have no motives here.
            You seem to be “loading” your presentation in a fashion that is not consistent with the original statements from Fenn.
            Nope, specifically said, ” a person”, not a “searcher”. This makes Fenn’s response mean something different in simple terms. How could just any person pick up the poem 500 years from now…knowing nothing…and find something they don’t even know about?
            Loco has put this “Nope” thing out on this blog enough times to poke my eyes out! I can’t see!

          • Well the Nope quote clearly says the person has the poem and doesnt have the backstory. It then gives contextual clues of the backstory which it is referring to and provides examples of the backstory of the treasure hunt itself.

            If your intention is to rehash a discussion or continue a prior argument with other searchers about stanza one then it might be useful to include examples that actually relate to stanza one.

            If your intention is to generate a giant discussion about backstories so that you can then divert the discussion into you believing the true back story is that F doesnt have his own story and based his hunt off the Diamond Hoax of 1872 and thats what you believe stanza one is about then why not just start there? It seems a waste of time to generate a bunch of discussion about an unrelated backstory quote then get all bent out of shape when people discuss the quotes and context of the backstory you are actually referring to/mentioning in your quotes.

          • Ken, that is not my premise at all. What I wrote about and what you, Jamie Jones and a few others are picking up on are two separate things. I explained this in a post a few minutes ago. I’m not sure if you read that one.

          • Jamie, you are doing good at making my point for me that you’re all over the map.

            Why would I be getting bent out of shape? Hilarious, unfounded accusations from you just get a dilly, dilly.

            You’ve got the wrong person that you’re trying to convince that the first stanza doesn’t have some kind of backstory, history, an introduction and/or it’s just f telling us about the Chase. It’s the other searchers that posted here saying that. Go crow at them.

          • Huh?? I haven’t made a single assertation about whether or not I believe stanza one contains a backstory of any sort or not…..I merely stated that the Nope quote you provided seemed to be related to the backstory of the hunt itself and in my opinion had nothing to do with stanza one. Nor do I believe that Fs response in either of the quotes you provided are directed stanza one.

          • Great, Jamie. But what’s that got to do with me? I already showed that has nothing to do with me…lol.

          • Yes. I know. Its about the details. And you were right on one of them! Congrats. I wish I had a gold star sticker for you. Im a mean liar for misreading a year. Please. Do. Carry on with whatever point you’re actually trying to make relating stanza one to Nopes question in attempt to argue with others. Ill pass on that porridge. Yawn.

          • @FD “what’s that got to do with you?” Well if you read the post above you claim I’m making assertions either way about stanza one. Which I’m not. I merely claimed the two gems you posted had nothing to do with it, I then implied I felt you were trying to generate a big hoopla about it to start arguments and manipulate ppls words. Which I believe is what you are doing here as a prime example. Good night. This is boring and expected.

          • Jamie, you said…yet he’s upset with and arguing against anyone who supposedly feels there is a backstory possibly in the poem.

            So you can show us who I’m upset with who supposedly feels there is a backstory possibly in the poem?….

          • Jamie, You said…If a person has only the poem AND they know where to start they are aware there is an actual hunt. They know to LOOK FOR IT in the first place as they know where to start. This statement (your first quote) does NOT provide context as to where that “start” is….therefore is a poor argument about the contents of stanza one, or any other stanza for that matter.

            Yes, f’s first quote does not provide context as to where that start is. So you said it yourself that your interpretation doesn’t have to be the right one. One possible reason for f not providing context for where the start is because this is a treasure hunt and obviously f has to keep some things a mystery. Seems like f keeping the proper starting place of clue one can be a legitimate part of his Chase that he wants the searchers to unlock for themselves.

            Your statement also doesn’t mean my point is any poorer of an argument than your argument. Of course, I have many other f statements that have been brought up countless times that back up my point. I will provide a few later on below.

            The rest of the clues hinge off of clue 1. Of course, there’s the word “begin” IN the poem that can allude to that’s where the mystery of where to start is…especially now since we have verification that biwwwh is known to be the first clue.

            F statement- You cannot solve the problem by starting in the middle of the poem. You should ***start*** with the first clue and then solve the other eight in order. f
            Of course, it’s difficult to just pick out the correct wwwh, of the thousands of them out there, with just the biwwwh line in the poem.

            Oh…and of course I don’t see anything about the potential success of finding the tc reliant on needing to know where to start in this f statement….Emily, All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. F

            One other point, you are missing two things with your quote here…After I said that (your fantasy about my supposed diabolical motives) you claimed I was saying there was no backstory in stanza one when what id actually said was that the quotes you provided offered a backstory of entirely different context OUTSIDE of the poem.

            Yes, your statement can imply no backstory in the poem, hence stanza 1, because you are arguing that those two f statements have nothing to do with the first stanza, or on top of that, the poem at all. It’s not that hard to figure out. Furthermore, it’s really not me that is arguing about backstory in the first stanza. As I have repeatedly stated, it’s the other posters here that argued that. I just picked up on their side of the discussion. So, it’s not my claim…it’s their claim!!!

            I hope your stickman doesn’t become a nuttyman in a future sketch of yours.

        • @FD, so I ask again: You appear to place high importance on the back story based upon your quoting of Forrest words, and it also appears that you think that some historical figure, place or previous Rocky Mountain mystery alludes to the place where warm waters halt is located. How then do you arrive at this conclusion from the words in the first stanza?

          • the Wanderer, somewhere on here I posted part of my answer to this question…it might have been to you. And in other comments I’ve added more details.

            I said a couple of days ago that the aha moment I got from the first stanza was who out there hints at their secret? Like a real big secret that one wouldn’t or is compelled not to speak of. For example, f just got telling us in stanza 1 (obviously people think it’s f talking if they don’t think it is anyone else) that he can keep his secret.

            You bet he can. He ain’t ever gonna tell it. He’s gonna keep his secret. So why hunt of it? As I discussed with JDA, f is compelled to have his secret hinted at (spread by whatever means happens) or his mystery, the Chase, goes nowhere.

            So, find the one major happening in the history of the Rocky Mountains that follows the same recipe. This other mystery went in alone in there, the other mystery had a bold treasure, the other mystery kept it a secret until they were compelled to hint about for their objectives.

          • @FD, so you believe that it is someone other than Forrest speaking in the first stanza?

            And you believe this because of some other historical person who may have done something similiar in history?

            Therefore your belief is that the entire first stanza is nothing more than a hint to the place that this person hid their treasure?

          • @Wanderer – he thinks the backstory is the Diamond Hoax of 1872. Hes apparently trying to play “puppet master”and run people in circles discussing other examples of backstories to get people to say back stories are important, that way when and if people say its not likely that the hunt would be based on an old hoax unrelated to F that is no longer a secret he can come back and start more tangential debates claiming people are contradicting themselves because they said that backstories are important. Im beginning to believe this entire line of discussion is more of manipulation ploy and a waste of time.

          • @Jonsey1, huh, that’s interesting as I just watched an episode of Mysteries at the Museum about just that, a few weeks ago. But why or even how would the first stanza allude to this. If Forrest has said that all the 8nformation we need to find the treasure is in the poem, and no US historical data is needed, why then would we need to look outside of the poem or even history to then find the correct starting point. All of this seems very counter to what Forrest has told us, unless he intends to mislead, which he says he doesn’t.

            And how do you know that this is what FD is alluding to?

            And is this true FD?

          • Jamie, love your use of the word apparently which you think allows you to completely make up some things about other people and it’s justified.

            So I can do that to you? I’ll just say you apparently and just chuck in whatever comes to mind? Is that a deal? Can you get Dal to sign off on that?

          • the Wanderer, when you get Jamie to rescind her post where she thinks it’s ok to state apparently I’m doing or think all the crap she came up with then I’ll answer your questions. Or she can prove all of that mess she conjured up.

          • @FD, my conversation is with you. Jonsey1 has alludes to something that is, at this point just hearsay, until you prove false or true. I admit it is an interjection into our conversation, but it is something I now question. So I ask, is it your belief that the first stanza alludes to this Diamond Hoax of 1872?

          • the Wanderer, I gonna maintain my position. It’s not about interjecting on Jamie’s part, this is a blog for discussion…so no harm there.

            It’s when she thinks she can just make up some things about one of us and just think that’s fine by saying apparently. Like that makes everything fair. Well, it’s not.

            Why don’t you tell us about what you saw on the Mystery at the Museum show and what you know about the Diamond Hoax.

          • @wanderer….well he wrote and self published a book claiming it to be so….and has posted on other blogs about it….and just this month he was starting a side group to discuss the stanza one containing the story of the diamond hoax….I tried to attach links but went to moderation. Surely you could google Diamond Hoax and Forrest Fenn or 1872 or Fundamental Design and the cross reference would yield results.

            It could be a great discussion….not sure why dancing around all the issues instead of just mentioning it here too….which is why I assume one may be trying to get people to take stances on backstory to later quote in a different context. I just dont unde4stand how els3 someone wouldnt unde4stand those 2 quotes of Fs unless there was an underlying motive to steer the conversation elsewhere. Just IMO

          • @FD, well it seems as though you are making some connect or possible belief that the chase may be a hoax because of your mention of why would someone hint towards or at their secret if it was not part of their initial objective to decieve another.

            I mean if I recall correctly that was a main component of the Diamond Hoax.

            So are you of the opinion that the chase is some sort of deception or hoax?

          • @Jonsey1, hmmm…….I see your point. I wasn’t aware of a book written by FD. And as you say his main premises, in the book, was about correlations between the poem and the Diamond Hoax, yes why then dance around the subject. Just get to the point.

            @FD, so then why not just get to that point, unless you objective was to see if another would or could arrive at the same conclusion. I can understand if that was your objective, but please verify if all of this is true, your book and theory. And then we can discuss it’s validity.

          • What the community is discussing – “Is stanza 1 a hint or eludes to a back story, but really isnt, because it is a hoax….so why put a treasure hunt together based upon a hoax, to make others think it is not a hoax…..???”

            Right? Or something like that maybe?

            IMO – and I have recently wrote about this…well sort of….in the book I intend to release someday….

            “His [FF] stories were renowned to be eccentric and vivid, but not always spot on.  I think it was to allow others to feel the thrills and inspiration he felt when he initially dreamed or acted them out.  It was in the way that he spoke or wrote them, well, they spoke to you, so all you could do is listen and read them too, in all their glory.  He gave them the dues they deserved, because he wants to have others know of these unknown stories, otherwise, the people involved will disappear into the annuls of history”

            Now…..do I think the poem is a “backstory”?

            That will be a question I answer in my book.

            :o)
            Good luck everyone.

          • Jamie, a lot of bad assumptions coming from you lately.

            Your smoke and mirror show that entangled the other posters upthread into believing you about my OP even though you didn’t even have the correct topic involved was entertaining.

          • the Wanderer, I told you Jamie Jones caused the ‘dancing around’ the subject. She’s not doing a very accurate job of telling my story but I’ll make you a deal.

            Have her tell you and us all any factual information that would show us that just this month I started a side group to discuss the stanza one containing the story of the diamond hoax…

            If she can do that then I’ll reconsider and answer some of your questions that I have not answered yet. If not, and I don’t want to hear that moderation is the reason she can’t, then Jamie Jones gets moderated out of here for good while. Because lying like that isn’t very nice. She needs to prove that false statement..

          • Well Fundy, you get to be right about something!! I was wrong. I googled to find the links for your “proof” and misread 2016 for 2017. The post about starting a group was Dec. 4 of 2016. I apologize for making that “false statement”. If anyone would like to read it they can check out CC and search for diamond hoax.

            I do not believe that mosquoting the year actually detracts from the actual poin5 of the matter as it merely points to how long the subject has been danced around here ad nausium…however you are correct. I miss quoted the year it was 2016. I am sorry for any internal stpress my 3rd in the date has caused you. I hope this makes you feel better.

          • …”lying like that isnt nice?” ??? Seriously?? You think it was mean to accident my read Dec 2016 as Dec 4, 2017?? You think that was “mean” and I should be removed from the blog for it? You must be kidding….

          • Jonsie – I’m sorry, I can not make heads nor tails of your last post. What are you saying? JDA

          • @JDA I had said that FD posted about starting a group on stanza one/ backstory relating to the diamond hoax. When I googled it the date said Dec 4th 2016 but I misread it as Dec. 4 2017. He was hurt by this and felt it was “mean” to “lie” like that about it etc. I was just formally correcting the date to 2016 and apologizing for any internal turmoil my err in reading caused him.

          • The point of the matter is being accurate in details…nice try with more smoke and mirrors but it doesn’t work with me.

            I do not believe that mosquoting the year actually detracts from the actual poin5 of the matter as it merely points to how long the subject has been danced around here ad nausium…however you are correct.

            Ummm, that subject hasn’t been danced around here for over a year or the others here wouldn’t be asking questions about it…more smoke and mirrors.

          • Thanks for the reply. When I googled Diamond hoax and Forrest Fenn and Fundamental Design, I got nothing. Oh well, it probably is not important.

            From my interactions with FD, I see that he is a master at deflection. Rarely have I ever seen him answer a question directly – But, that is just MY observation. JDA

          • Hang Jonsey by her toes… how dare she have a typo. Or misread/mistype something. 50 lashes I say… 50!! Make her an example for others!!
            The nerve of some folks…

            Oh! right!… all that crap is just an opinion of this commentator. No real action should be brought, or any charges files… because… well, she so dang cute. Just look at those puppy dog eyes.

            End of commentary…

          • Seeker, its not just about a typo. Can you personally vouch for all the things Jamie said I’m “apparently” doing here that I’m actually doing or did? What a joke! If you can’t vouch for them all then I should be to make up all kinds of stuff about you and cover myself by just inserting the word “apparently”. When can I start that compelling contribution to this blog?

            Jamie has gotten plenty of things wrong the past couple days. It’s just a pattern that she has. I’ve called out many things wrong in the past few days from her. So, please don’t tell me it’s just a simple typo.

            Look at all the other posters here that congratulated her post in response to my OP but none of them realized that her response had nothing to do with the point of my post.

          • Fun D,
            I get what you’re saying about things folks talk about… but all in all… its nothing more than talk. My attempt at humor was only about a simple typo and she explained it as such.
            If we’re going to have debates and discussion, that stuff happens all the time.
            LOL… I’ve had folks complain when I quote fenn and others complain when I paraphrase to save time and space. It’s a friggin no win situation. I also have attempted to correct others who have misquoted [the wording ] of a comment only to be told, that is not what they think the comment means., and hide behind those three little letters as a safety net.

            Ha! even as of this date, nobody has been able to show the exact quote that ‘many’ have used for years, saying; ‘a child can walk right to the chest’; even after fenn has debunked that wording.
            LOL, again, it’s a no win situation. Whether you agree or disagree with someone’s thoughts is part of the fun to debate the theories thrown out here… but to argue a typo, is just going to lead to one big headache.

            I’m not vouching for Jonsey… heck, most of the time i don’t have a clue of what she’s talking about… The gal has a very interesting mind, and my mind just can’t keep up some of what she talks about at times.
            Ha! Then again, many have said the same about me… Not, that I have an interesting mind… but, they just can’t keep up with me…lol

          • Yes, please Seeker, read it. FD made a claim that two separate quotes were related to whether or not there was a backstory in stanza one. I made a point that the quote from Nope, while mentioned a backstory, was referring to the backstory of there being a hunt at all and totally unrelated to whether or not there was a backstory in stanza one. Because IF there WAS a backstory in stanza one the person in 500 years wouldnt even know to LOOK FOR IT in the first place as they wouldnt even know there was a chest. It was 100% related to the post, it just wasnt what FD wanted to hear.

            I further asserted that I felt he was trying to dance around issues since HIS OWN SOLVE involves the “backstory” of the Diamond Hoax in the poem…yet he’s upset with and arguing against anyone who supposedly feels there is a backstory possibly in the poem.

            He also somehow twists my words to say that I’m claiming there’s no backstory in stanza one whilst simultaneously attacking me for misquoting a date, yet failing to even acknowledge the whole point of him HIMSELF having the Diamond Hoax story.

            Yet I’m wrong for getting his panties in a swivet by saying ‘apparently’ there may be ulterior motives involved in his internally contradictory and constant arguments.

            Peas porridge in the pot nine days old.

          • Yes, Seeker, reread my OP if you have to. Jamie was of the opinion that the nope quote referred only to the overall backstory of the Chase but totally unrelated to any possible backstory in the first stanza. That doesn’t mean she’s correct.

            Jamie said…Because IF there WAS a backstory in stanza one the person in 500 years wouldn’t even know to LOOK FOR IT in the first place as they wouldn’t even know there was a chest. Really? I can easily show that’s laughable. From the poem- Just take the chest and go in peace wouldn’t help one person out of the whole world population of 20 billion people to figure out there’s a chest involved in the poem??? smh

            My OP was clearly about the few other posters in the last couple of days that do think the first stanza has backstory, a history or it’s an introduction as they had posted here while also believing there’s no hint/clue in stanza one.

            Since they think that, I showed the two quotes and how the only difference is no backstory in the nope reply and how that made the poem suddenly not reasonable to solve. Jamie hasn’t been able to square her comments with the first f quote…Will the poem lead you to the treasure? Yes, if you know where to start. I don’t see any reference to backstory in that question or reply. It’s just about the whole poem and it can get you to the tc.

          • Back story? I’ll give you a back story. Jonsey won the stickman drawing contest. Jealous? I wasn’t jealous. Why should I be jealous?? Who wants a stupid free book anyway!!! She can keep the free book for all I care. I’m telling you I am not jealous. That has never entered my mind when I think about how cool it must be to win a free book in a contest. It’s never crossed my mind. So what if she can draw stick people better than me. Why should I care??? There– now you have the back story. I hope you are enjoying your free book Jonsey because I could care less. 🙂

          • Yes Fundy. As I said in my original post that upset you…
            If a person has only the poem AND they know where to start they are aware there is an actual hunt. They know to LOOK FOR IT in the first place as they know where to start. This statement (your first quote) does NOT provide context as to where that “start” is….therefore is a poor argument about the contents of stanza one, or any other stanza for that matter.

            A person that finds the poem in 500 years and has no backstory outside of the poem (as suggested in the context clues in Nopes question: “mountains”, 9 clues, etc) They wouldn’t know to LOOK FOR IT in the first place. They would not no where to start. They would not be reasonably expected to even know TO start. They could not be reasonably expected to find a chest after reading a random 500 year old. poem they weren’t aware was a real hunt,

            Yes the word “chest” is in there….there are many poems about treasures that people read for pleasure and do not go searching for as their pragmatic context does not suggest that there is an actual hunt, as in the scenario suggested by Nope. Most poems are generally considered creative writing and not expected to lead to actual treasure chests.

            Both of Fs responses seem to clearly make sense in both cases, and neither require any formal or informal deduction or induction about the specific contents of stanza one.

            So while your “argument” that you yourself claimed you’d “win” no matter what side anyone took…”apparently” seems to me to contain ulterior motives to bait people into saying things about backstories you can twist into other contexts. After I said that you claimed I was saying there was no backstory in stanza one when what id actually said was that the quotes you provided offered a backstory of entirely different context OUTSIDE of the poem. In this case it seems the ends have begun to justify the means.

            Get some rest.

          • Omg Sparrow…..its.seriously the greatest book. SO GLAD I WON….and I see youre really astute for how you pick up on all my greatness. Maybe we could start a private group and I could help coach you on how to draw and what ideas to come up with and stuff!!

          • ….plus drawing lessons will keep us busy since apparently the one person out of two billion people that happens to pick up the poem in 500 years and knows nothing about the hunt existing will miraculously have a reasonable chance of solving the nine clues they dont know exist and retrieving the chest! Even though F said Nope. What does he know anyhow? May as well throw in the towel now and get those ink pens agoin!! Well be knee deep in books and prizes before we know it!!

          • ….I hope you will not be allowing a posthumous entry from Dean Krakel, as I believe he may already have the market cornered on that backstorys backstory…

            If not please name the contest and time ASAP…I’m drooling

          • No wait. Crap. Hes still alive. Arg. Well….I hope you’ll consider excluding professionals, thus giving me a much needed advantage.

            I bet that thing smells up whole room with calf skin and casein as soon as you slide it out.

          • Reposted to put at the bottom of the discussion.

            Jamie, You said…If a person has only the poem AND they know where to start they are aware there is an actual hunt. They know to LOOK FOR IT in the first place as they know where to start. This statement (your first quote) does NOT provide context as to where that “start” is….therefore is a poor argument about the contents of stanza one, or any other stanza for that matter.

            Yes, f’s first quote does not provide context as to where that start is. So you said it yourself that your interpretation doesn’t have to be the right one. One possible reason for f not providing context for where the start is because this is a treasure hunt and obviously f has to keep some things a mystery. Seems like f keeping the proper starting place of clue one can be a legitimate part of his Chase that he wants the searchers to unlock for themselves.

            Your statement also doesn’t mean my point is any poorer of an argument than your argument. Of course, I have many other f statements that have been brought up countless times that back up my point. I will provide a few later on below.

            The rest of the clues hinge off of clue 1. Of course, there’s the word “begin” IN the poem that can allude to that’s where the mystery of where to start is…especially now since we have verification that biwwwh is known to be the first clue.

            F statement- You cannot solve the problem by starting in the middle of the poem. You should ***start*** with the first clue and then solve the other eight in order. f
            Of course, it’s difficult to just pick out the correct wwwh, of the thousands of them out there, with just the biwwwh line in the poem.

            Oh…and of course I don’t see anything about the potential success of finding the tc reliant on needing to know where to start in this f statement….Emily, All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. F

            One other point, you are missing two things with your quote here…After I said that (your fantasy about my supposed diabolical motives) you claimed I was saying there was no backstory in stanza one when what id actually said was that the quotes you provided offered a backstory of entirely different context OUTSIDE of the poem.

            Yes, your statement can imply no backstory in the poem, hence stanza 1, because you are arguing that those two f statements have nothing to do with the first stanza, or on top of that, the poem at all. It’s not that hard to figure out. Furthermore, it’s really not me that is arguing about backstory in the first stanza. As I have repeatedly stated, it’s the other posters here that argued that. I just picked up on their side of the discussion. So, it’s not my claim…it’s their claim!!!

            I hope your stickman doesn’t become a nuttyman in a future sketch of yours.

          • The way @FD and @jonsie1 have been going at each other the past couple days you would swear they were an old married couple lol

          • My assertation was and is, simply, that the quotes you provided do not support your conclusion about the contents of stanza one
            It was not a well thoight argument and does not provide insight into the contents of stanza one

            As far as my circumstantial opinions/predictions of your behavior…well I think you’re doing a fine.job of carrying on with endless (aka ad naseum) examples of the sort of 5hing I was referring to.

            Carry on.

          • …but please refrain from carrying on about my thoughts on stanza one.

            It COULD have a back story. It COULD not have one.

            Surely there COULD b3 good arguments either way on that. Unfortunately yours was not one of them. as you provided 2 quotes -neither of which- support either way on stanza ones specific contents.

          • Barely Watchable Smoke and Mirrors Show, you said…It COULD have a back story. It COULD not have one.

            (^ I agree)

            Surely there COULD b3 good arguments either way on that. Unfortunately yours was not one of them. as you provided 2 quotes -neither of which- support either way on stanza ones specific contents.

            You keep painting yourself into a corner and don’t realize it. Like you can tell us all the exact, specific contents of stanza 1. Because of course, the specific content of stanza one doesn’t just include the words written. It includes any hidden specific information that f could have placed there. Hilarious!

            The other problem you still have is you allege that the nope quote I used does not support my conclusion about the contents of stanza one.

            It’s clearly been stated in this discussion by another searcher that they see merit in the fact that the nope reply is a blanket statement about backstory. The nope reply doesn’t put any restrictions on where the backstory can be found. Outside of the nope reply, no one, including f, has put restrictions on where any history, backstory, and/or introductions to the Chase are located.

          • Considering this back story thing with all the inclusive pertaining quotes. I can interpret 2 perspectives. 1 being that a person would need to know what the poem is about and why it was created- left brain logic. 2nd ,I can see that of in the poem, that there just may be another person in the poem , not being only the writer, FF. This being the right brain creative visualization of in alignment of another persons life story-using imagination. This context trigger in the light if this, for me, is the beginning of the poem starts, ” As I have gone alone in there”. It’s almost a start in the “middle intersection ” of a story and the ending isn’t complete as of yet.- the stories finale. IMO .

            I see two kinds of back story: the purpose of the poem and the “whom” is the other person in the poem. I can see also that the poem speaks of ” the searcher” ,of course. IMO . But of these, I can identify FF and the Searcher but whom is the hidden back story person?

            “I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.”

            Just my opinion.

    • If this is a riddle, The correct answer is Rock Hudson because ‘Cary Granite’ is a fictional character.
      If it’s not a riddle you are not a very good researcher (or speller) Mr Sparrow. 🙂

      • no–it wasn’t a riddle. But I’m pretty sure either Rock Hudson or Cary Granite visited his store. If not it might have been Pebbles Flintstone. 🙂

      • And what do all of these actors have in common?

        Cary Grant: 6′ 2″
        Gregory Peck: 6′ 3″
        John Wayne: 6′ 4″
        Rock Hudson: 6′ 4″

          • Pdenver—

            Very good. I was going to say they all played a role that required an eye patch. Peck as Captain Bligh—Wayne as Rooster Cogburn. But then I couldn’t think of a roll where Cary Grant wore an eye patch.

            So your answer makes far better sense. 🙂

        • An interesting sidenote that vaguely has to do with the Chase:

          Jimmy Stewart was 6′ 4″ tall. Harvey the rabbit was 6′ 3-1/2″ inches tall. But Jimmy Stewart looks up at the invisible Harvey throughout the movie.

          This tidbit brought to you by Yamaha golf carts. When it’s “not far, but too far to walk” try Yamaha.

          • Correction: Stewart was 6′ 3″— but he still looks up as though Harvey is much taller than him, though Elwood P. Down says the rabbit is 6′ 3-1/2″.

        • They were all nominated for an academy award.
          None of them used their real first name.
          They were all taller than Mr Fenn.

          • Hello Zaphod. As you can see, there are several common factors in regards to these men. Can one truly state which is the correct one?

          • (Second try.) Zaphod, there are several common factors. Can one truly state which is the correct one?

          • Hi pdenver: I wouldn’t say there is a right or wrong answer. I just thought it was mildly interesting that those four men mentioned by Forrest were all tall, leading men from cinema. (Add in Clark Gable at 6′ 1″ and we’re up to five.) But then there are also a number of famous men he mentions that aren’t over six feet (e.g. Michael Douglas, Elton John).

  35. randawg—You Rock. We should take nothing for Granted.

    A peck is an imperial and United States customary unit of dry volume, equivalent to 2 dry gallons or 8 dry quarts or 16 dry pints (9.09 (UK) or 8.81 (US) liters). Two pecks make a kenning (obsolete), and four pecks make a bushel.

  36. Desertphile has pointed out that you can now purchase “The Lure” from the video’s website,
    http://www.the-lure.com

    The Lure is a film about the search for Forrest’s treasure and has several folks from this blog in it..including Desertphile..
    and, of course, Forrest…
    The film was created by Tomas Leach of Moxie Films and has garnered many awards since its release a year ago…

  37. I feel the need to scream as loud as possible in a remote wilderness I call my own.

    My solution.

      • I have only nubs left. My thread is oh so thin. A spider silk has me all tied up and holds me tight within.

        Sand. Gems.

      • A scream so loud it it silent to all but those with 6th sense hearing. And wolves, of course.

        It was awesome to put a face with your posts at the book signing!

        • Yes it was nice to finally meet you at the book signing Twingem. Maybe next time we can spend more time in conversation, it was kinda busy and hectic……
          Have a great night my friend… until next time… see ya…..

  38. Seeker, I believe you’ve made something of a straitjacket for yourself out of all the quotes. Trying to synthesize a solution out of so many contextually fluid elements may be leading to a dead end. The poem stands like a beacon in all of this. It never changes. That should be our guiding light, IMO.

    I know you won’t listen to me – and rightly so, as I have no interest in helping you beat me to the treasure – but others have been offering you very good advice. Listening out for whispered words may be worth your while.

    It’s time for me to back away, or else I’m going to divulge something I will definitely regret. Why are winters so long in the Rockies?

      • Buddy,
        I think I sprained my humorous. My athletic ability is not what it use to be… I guess I’ll just have to man up and be an athletic-supporter for here on.

      • Hi Buddy.

        FYI….if you have decided to discount the “mental gymnastics” as nothing more than a rabbit hole, so be it.

        I’d advise against it, if you truly want to retrieve the trove.

        This game is a thinking game in every stretch of the words.

        Good luck to you.

        Be safe out thre and of course, “be the chest”.

        :o)

        Tim

    • Vox…I believe that ALL serious searchers/participants have willingly put themselves into this Chase. Some have ventured forth and found peace in the mountains in their search for Fenn’s treasure. Some have shot out of a cannon and have managed to amass a quantity of searches that boggles the mind. Some speak of their adventures, some don’t. Some offer ideas and are willing to converse about the yeas and nays. Some just try to be a part of. There are many who just hang back and soak it all in with nary a word offered. There are tense times and times of excitement. I used to feel like this was a race…or a contest of sorts…but now realize that this Chase will quite likely last for a lot longer than we all anticipate…or individually believe. Quite frankly…I just want to know the answers and could care less who finds it. I actually relish the constant flow of ideas and banter tossed around here…no matter what I believe about them. It’s like the best cartoon or comic book or best selling novel all wrapped into one. No straight jackets required !

    • Vox ~’Trying to synthesize a solution out of so many contextually fluid elements may be leading to a dead end.’

      I’m not trying to make a solution out of the AFT. I am attempting to make the AFT truthful to any solve I create from the poem. I mean, if my solve end below 5000′ I’m not going to say, fenn is only telling us 85% of the truth to force my solve to be legit..
      If fenn states he was thinking down the road as to what the clues refer to [ 100 yrs a 1000 yrs or more ], and I come across a turd on a piece of tire or an old propane tank, or a broken bowl…I have to ask myself… well, to be honest, I’m not going to ask myself a dang thing about them… it’s just garbage that will never have any connection to clues.

      LOL, I mean as far as you’re concern… you took that tire [pointer] out of the equation from your search site… Geezzz, thanks for that. Ya just ruined it for all the searchers who needed that turd pointer. So, it seems you already divulge a top secret piece of information. Now no one will ever find the chest.

  39. Having been on this forum for well over two years, I have read post after post after post where “seeker” has claimed there is no driving required in this treasure hunt. He has even stated above that he would quit the chase if any of the clues pertained to driving. For a poem whose meaning is so vague, seeker is expressing a pretty strong opinion. But his opinion is nothing more than that, and I would caution readers about it.

    Upthread, seeker wrote:
    ” fenn has put in his comments; “he walk” to the hide twice in one afternoon… “he” followed the clue “when he hid the chest — two trips.
    Tells us… folks got the first couple clues correct and “unfortunately, WALKED past the treasure chest” (caps added by Ken)

    Seeker’s upthread comment continues for next 4 paragraphs …

    “Why is it that many like the idea that driving is involved? Maybe because they can’t wrap there heads around how NFBTFTW could mean something else?”

    “If driving clue are involved then we can start a Glacier national park [ more precise. waterton lake], drive down be below Canada, drive thru YSP, pass CO rocky [RM NP] mountain high and into New and Old Mexico.”

    “All the clues match to the landscape if you think about it… all involving N, which would be a heck of a tour… But where’s the walking??? The hiking? the exploring? the adventure?”

    “Well, I guess you can take some nice pics as you slowly drive by… and I doubt that anyone would need to travel the clues “twice” Like we have been told”
    ———————————————————————————————–

    Discounting seeker’s last 4 paragraphs which are sarcastic in the extreme, it annoys me when seeker misquotes Fenn, and based on this incorrect quote tries to persuade others that driving cannot possibly be part of the clues.

    seeker wrote: “folks got the first couple clues correct and “unfortunately, walked past the treasure chest”.

    But for the benefit of the reader, let me quote dal’s Cheat Sheet, which matches word for word what is found on the Tarry Scant website:

    Forrest Fenn’s exact quote: >>> “Some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they WENT right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close”.

    Here’s another Fenn quote, taken from Tarry Scant: >>> “Others have figured the first two clues and WENT right past the treasure and didn’t know it”.

    And a third Tarry Scant quote from FF: >>> “There have been two different parties that have figured out the first two clues but the, they WENT right past the treasure chest and didn’t find it”.

    So seeker, kindly stop implying that Forrest Fenn always uses the word “WALK” after reference to the first two clues. He doesn’t.

    I can easily see where searchers would identify in an email to FF the correct first two clues, but in the field they didn’t find the chest because they could not connect the first two clues with the remaining seven; instead, they drove a couple of miles north or south or east or west of the chest, which is “close” given the expanse of the Rockies. The interpretation of “went” (rather than walked) thus leaves open to searcher interpretation whether the searcher drove, biked, swam, parachuted in, or walked. To my knowledge, FF has never said that you can walk from clue 1 all the way to the chest. Yet that is precisely what seeker is implying.

    And seeker’s conclusion upthread that he couldn’t care less where Forrest parked, to begin his hike to hide the treasure chest, is outrageous.

    So seeker’s implication to readers that FF is telling searchers that the last seven clues are within walking distance of the first two clues is highly, HIGHLY misleading. Seeker, please stop!

    For readers who trust seeker over Forrest Fenn, kindly consult dal’s cheat sheet in this blog; the word is “WENT right past”, not “WALKED”.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken…nothing wrong with opinions or shared ideas.
      There are other quotes you have missed in your research that contain the words….”….deciphered the first two clues…and “walked” right past…’
      One of the earliest instances was the Moby Dickens video. This was a very candid and revealing interview…one of the memorable ones for sure. Not casting judgment at all…but you are not being thorough in your argument here….
      Have a nice day and good luck in the Chase…

    • Ken,
      You do realize that everything said here, by any blogger is BS, right?
      You say I am “highly misleading” You say “I misquote fenn”
      LOL~ but what I see you doing is only using one quote at a time and running with it… such as the wording “went by” as if, that is all fenn ever said. A bit hypocritical on your part, wouldn’t you say?
      Here’s another quote [ word for word ]
      “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking.. Sure, I mean, people figured out the first couple of clues and unfortunately “walked” past the treasure chest”
      Or some of the other quotes [ in part ] “…searchers “walked” by the remaining seven clues..” But by your standards of evaluating my comment; “went by” can’t mean “walk past” in no shape or form when you consider ALL the comments related? Ok sure. Ya just can’t fix stupid!

      I really don’t give a rats ass what the “cheat sheet” says… it’s a cheat sheet… not the US Constitution. If all you’re working with is someone else summary of the many, many, many, comments fenn has stated… well, good luck with that.
      **See what I’m talking about Fundamental design… even when I quote fenn [word for word]… folks get ticked off.

      But the real belly chuckle here is, you [Ken} seem to think I have some kinda major influence over folks. Umm errr. lol,
      dang! I didn’t know I had my very own fan club… I have always said; you’ll love me or you’ll hate me, but most just love to hate me.
      So, if your attempting to get me booted by saying I misquote fenn or being deliberately misleading and all the other crap you claim… I’ll ask you this… show me something, anything, that implies driving is part of the solution and use/explain Forrest Fenn quotes to back it up your hypothetical theory… Because Ken, That is all anyone has is ‘hypothetical scenarios’ ‘personal interpretation’ ‘Ideas of whatIFs’ and we’re here to BS with others from around the world….
      Dang, some of you folks take this thing so serious, it mind-boggles me how you can even function in reality at all.

      End of commentary…

      • Seeker, your (end of commentary…) line is misleading, we know they never end… lol.

        Yes, Ken was selective on the quotes he used for the went vs. walked issue.

        But if I was the devils advocate I will point to the comment about reverse engineering from HOB to WWH. Fenn said something like ‘sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some (gas money) for a percentage of the take’. Why will there be an extra gas expense if you can walk back to WWH from HOB?

        Sure we can say he was being playful with his answers. That could also apply to (people figured out the first couple of clues and unfortunately “walked” past the treasure chest) Was he playing with the words a bit? Forrest could say something like ‘let me walk you through the clues in my poem’.

        • Ozzy ~’…we know they never end… lol.’
          Ouch!

          We can say fenn plays with a lot of wording in his after the facts comments… say he’s only telling us 85% of the truth 100% of the time.
          But if we don’t utilize ‘all’ the AFT for a logical assumption… why do we bother asking, hoping, dreaming, wanting more bones thrown on the scrap pile?
          Picking and choosing only what works for what we think are perfect solutions, just forces a wrong solve to be correct in our minds… nothing more.

          • yall all need to remember the quiet deep thinker will find the treasure chest not the rambling angry name calling people…. IMHO IMHO IMHO

            the point is, quit “wasting your energy”… (on the neg) and stay quiet and do research over the winter IMHO

            but what do I know anyway.

          • James, maybe the name calling here is needed to relax the brain from the deep thinking stress and frustration. :-p

          • Lol seeker, you know I was teasing. Not only do you chew through leashes but now also through straitjackets… 🙂

          • Seeker you said, “Picking and choosing only what works for what we think are perfect solutions, just forces a wrong solve to be correct in our minds… nothing more.”

            I totally agree and I fell that is exactly what you are doing. You are picking one quote that is arguably a figure of speech and is countered by “went” vice “walk” in similar quotes. There are plenty more Fenn facts and evidence that refutes the treasure being very near WWWH, if you look. But if you cherry pick one quote and focus only on it in a literal fashion, then that is all you will see and believe.

            This game will be won with imagination not literal thinking. Solve the riddle!

      • Hi Seeker.

        *hug*

        I’m a fan!

        Probably not your biggest, and I don’t always agree with your synergy…..see what I did there…..but hey….you, me, “ken”, etc…etc….all have an opinion……an opinion that is ours until proven incorrect.

        How is that done? When someone walks away with the trove…..”to their sedan”….*smiles*…..and we finally hear about the story.

        You – no driving….fine with me. You can even change your mind, if you decide to with further information you find. A great example is an inventor trying to invent something. They continue to try and figure out the “errors” in their thinking, but may keep many “errors” because they still are good “work arounds” for some of the obstacles encountered.

        Me – no driving, because I don’t think the blaze can be found while driving. Driving defeats the purpose of the map and goes against what FF said in some mannerism…., walked/went”….right past the other clues. To me, those individuals were either driving, did not know the area they were in was applicable to the map, or just visiting the area and didn’t even realize the first two clues were involved with a treasure map some where, etc…..etc….etc….
        – yep….I can think of may more reasons why – but in reality, they were not discovered….and statistically, you can claim with an high percentage, they weren’t looking for the blaze, because they were not walking.

        JDA – drives, hikes, drives, hikes, etc….or something like that to finally arrive at a specified location that he could actually just drive the whole path in. Sounds odd, but, okay…it is his way of figuring out the map.

        Others may be in these camps or not…who really knows. We all have an opinion that we will work with most of ouor solves until the very end of this hunt.

        Only then we will know we are/were right or wrong.

        That is the way I look at this….always have.

        I look at the hunt as knowing one person will be the winner….a lottery of sorts. I want to be the lucky chap who gets to be in the limelight, just like pretty much everyone who is searching. Will I? I can still say maybe.

        IMO – Anything is fair game if you can prove it with facts. That is the name of the game, it is how we play it, it is why we play it. If you can play by Forrest’s rules, you can play to win the prize.

        If you think you have the imagination that will allow yourself to play against the wits of another, a true master, then this game is for you. If you have the motivation to apply your wits to the poem and solve it, then this is the game for you.

        Can you actually “be the chest” and “find yourself” through the “danger” and adventure?

        Good luck sir!

        • Tim;

          You say, “JDA – drives, hikes, drives, hikes, etc….or something like that to finally arrive at a specified location that he could actually just drive the whole path in. Sounds odd, but, okay…it is his way of figuring out the map.”

          In the past I have said that I drive, stop, look, get back in car and drive some more etc.

          Today I drive all the way, from wwwh, all of the way to my END spot where I park. I hike about one mile to final site. Find Indulgence (I hope) and hike back one mile to “sedan” and go home with a bigsmile 🙂 – JDA

          P.S. only one trip – I will have help with the weight 🙂

      • “You do realize that everything said here, by any blogger is BS, right?”
        I prefer the word ‘opinion’. I think many post their honest thoughts and insights on the Chase even though some may interpret it as BS.

        • BS or BSing is opinions.
          It’s not meant as a derogatory or with disrespect [ you’ll know, without a doubt, if I get to that point ]… It’s simply my vernacular.

          Most of the bloggers here have chatted for years [ some from the very start ], and many have their own ways of expressing and expressions.
          Think of it has a bunch of folks who meet at the same coffee shop everyday and talk about how they can solve all the worlds problems… If ya’ll don’t know me by now… well, what can I say.

          If ya’ll are new to the game… Disclaimer; I come with a warning label given to me by my second grade teacher… “Seeker doesn’t play well with others”
          It’s in my “permanent records”… so apparently, it must be true.

        • “Disclaimer; I come with a warning label given to me by my second grade teacher… “Seeker doesn’t play well with others””

          Seeker, has anyone asked you if you had Aspergers?
          (not admitting if I have or haven’t)

    • Ken, since you like the tarry scant website, maybe you should do a search with “walk”, because all I see him saying is a form of “walk”. Maybe I should do a search with “went”. Lol, you can’t say Seeker is misquoting and then misquote. Forrest uses “walk” so many times, it’s not out of the ordinary to think that walking is involved. Just search walk so you can change the mistake you have made.

  40. Does anyone want to talk about the little girl in India again?
    Not the poster … you know, the one from Jenny’s question…and why she couldn’t get past the first two clues….? Just wondering.

    • LOL ken. Blessed are the peacemakers. I think there could be a topic page devoted to the little girl in India. As for the poster, I think that person demonstrates a high level of understanding, so much so that I don’t believe that they are a little girl in India. Don’t get me wrong, I look forward to the posts from LIG.

      Ron.

      • Jeez wron…I keep my Peace Maker in my nightstand these days….I never know when someone’s gonna try and hug me or something ! LOL…
        I don’t really follow LIG’s posts much because the posts are always cryptic…or I just don’t get what’s being said. Most times I don’t even know what I say!
        Oh well…still fun stuff.

    • C’MON ken… fenn never said “get past” are you misquoting fenn deliberately, are you attempting to mislead other readers [ lol that still kills me… like folks can’t think for themselves. Haaahaahhaaa err pfft ]

      Ok. a short list of whatIF’s
      Too short? Maybe she need to be as tall as Rock Hudson.
      Doesn’t have a passport?
      Wrong map? cuz we’re looking for the right map? Oh wait… and/or GE.
      Maybe she need to see and observe something we need to plan for?
      Maybe the clues are closer than many would like them to be, and “can not get closer” related to all the clues, as well as the chest?
      Maybe all the clues create the blaze? and understanding the clues puts us at – “A” place on a map?… in this case, size does seem to matter. Even when we’re told it doesn’t.
      Maybe she on the no fly list, cuz we need to fly over the area and not walk or hike it?

      What are your thoughts to the “flute” inquiry?

      • Here’s a good one…
        Q+A 5/22/17
        Hi Forrest, we are now aware that the poem is a map. If the poem is a map and will tell us exactly where to go, why couldn’t the little girl from India “get past” the first two clues ? I think it’s because after solving all nine clues from home, the ocean prevents her from journeying to the precise location to retrieve the treasure chest.
        ” Dear Whoever Asked This Question, Thanks for answering it for me. f “

        • So, are you saying the ocean prevents little Indy from getting closer? I think she could get to the USA with no problems by boat or flight… wait, did I just answer my own question?

          LOL what do i need you for…

        • Hi ken,
          I already told on this site why she couldn’t. When Mr Fenn uttered this statement Google Earth was a very crude tool. Currently, Google Earth with all the 3d features allows a searcher to see way more than a 2 dimensional map. As I already revealed, in my opinion, the 1st part of the poem is discriptive and therefore, back then, it required BOTG. Mr Fenn thought of everything, but didn’t predict how fast Google Earth will change. Again, all of the above is my opinion only.

          • Um…okay. Sounds great.
            I think there are some/a couple of much easier explanations to this debacle that do not have any bearing on GE or size of maps….
            good luck LIG !

      • Anyone tooting his own flute too much should relax
        a bit more than he has been lately, IMO.

        Did y’all notice a reference to a limousine?

    • Yea she couldn’t Get past the first two. So the rest I gues u need the book Did she have google earth darn now I gotta go back and look Yea dal you should make a post for this topic

      • ◾5Q) Your treasure hunt has inspired people worldwide to discover history, culture and nature, but many people, (even in the US) might be deterred because they don’t live near the Rockies or can’t afford to travel. Should they be deterred? Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?

        I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.

        • PD,
          The interesting thing about the question is, if you read it without little indy’s involvement.

          We now have been told the poem is ‘plain English’ IMO that eliminates other languages and there different definitions.
          The question {in part} relates to people who don’t live near the search areas, and should they be deterred about solving the poem because they live far away.

          So, the real question here is about, beforehand, as to how anyone would feel as they proceed.
          The first part implies; “but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue,…”
          fenn has stated, this in theory, this can be done at home… [I’m not sure how confident a person would feel about the clues — lol — we have seen many claiming a bucket load of confidence, only to return empty handed.]

          Which leads to the second part of this question; “or only confident when she has solved them all?”
          This two part question of ‘confidence’ doesn’t add anything to a “solve”… a “solve” is a ‘completed task’… The completed task here is, to “go” to an exact spot the clues lead to.

          So, now we have fenn’s response which seems to imply nothing about confidence, but more of a physical nature… regardless of distance between clues… The answer seems to say; you can not “solve” the task without being there. Seems pretty obvious, seeing that is the whole point of this challenge.

          But… [and this is the reason I say we need to fulfill the idea of having all the AFT ring true]… fenn said he followed the clues “when he hid the chest”
          That is a physical statement of his action… not a statement of confidence. I mean, he knew where he wanted the chest to be, before pen hit paper, right?
          So… IMO, No one can get closer [to the completion of the task.. retrieve the chest] without knowing the layout of all the clues – physical features, directions, instructions, blaze[s] because the clues are more than just decipherable… they need to be “followed” exactly as told.
          Apparently, that might not be able to be done ‘on’ maps. so ‘field work is necessary’… not just walking from place to place.

          We have been told, “all the information to find the chest is in the poem”… so the poem and the field work seems to fall hand in hand, or as Tesla like the term; ‘Handshake’. IMO the clues and location have to have that handshake for a complete solve. Anything else is a general solve… and all Generals do is bark orders but never do the work themselves.

          IMO… fenn has us doing more than simple stomping of clues… there is work to be done on site… thinking, analyzing, planning, observing, doesn’t stop at home.
          IMO… the clues are usable, utilized, a handshake with the words on paper and the land around, for a complete solution of the challenge… and it seems to start at the very beginning.

          Basically, I see fenn’s comments [ plural ] as saying… no one can get closer [to a completed solution] than the starting point, because the clues need to be used, not just known of.
          Ha! I guess I should have lead off with that comment first…lol

          End of commentary… Dang Ozzy… you we’re right! I need to change that.

      • Hi pdenver – I’ve never shared this before, but I’ll throw it out there just to add a little fun to the mayhem at the close of 2017. Doesn’t that last sentence from Forrest seem odd? Unsolicited, with not much in the way of an antecedent — especially the final independent clause. IMO, it’s a hint for the “word that is key.”

        • Zap—
          Your post made me halt and think for a moment. So you think it may have something to do with a word that is key huh? Interesting.

        • Hi Sparrow: yep, that’s my running theory anyway. But perhaps just one of 100+ cases of confirmation bias.

        • Zap – there seems to be much that he said that seems odd. The challenge is parsing what is good, usable information.

          It’s also important to differentiate between what he said verbally and what he noted in writing.

        • Covert One: totally agree. In my opinion, what he writes is far more important than what he says. When he writes, he has all the time in the world to craft clever replies … and conceal a hint or two if he so desires.

        • I have always scanned this Q&A to mean that only 2 or 3 clues are reachable in understanding and locating on a map of their locations remotely ( map/research).The remainder 6 needs BOTG to get the same level of confidence for understanding and their affirmed locations. The last sentence seems odd by its alluding to the needing to be physically on site requirement for getting closer and understanding/following the clues. This would really depend on what the second clue is and where the first one is and what it means, what these first 2 means. I would add the third clue in with this as well. I don’t think its workable towards knowing with confidence to map the remaining 6 clues non-physically ( map/research) before BOTG. IMO .

          Highlighted by his last sentence. The first stanza is on a map , the remainder are not. Some other ATF’s jiggle and jive this way in my opinion.

          That’s what this Q&A scans to me as a hint. IMO .

          • Edit correction

            I meant the second stanza is on a map- not the first. IMO . First stanza with the clues.

  41. For an occasional lurker…can someone remind me what the abbreviation used in several posts above…”SB” stands for. Thanks!

  42. I am a searcher tried and true. I have made mistakes and will endure many more. If the chase is a hoax then I am a hoax too, if the chase was not real then neither was my poems, writtings, and all things I have done related to the chase. They are real, therefor the treasure is real, and so am I.

  43. The clue that someone was 200 feet from the treasure is the clue that will solve the hunt. How many people actually send ff emails disclosing their location, how many are women. FF gave someone a great clue.

    • that was ages ago FlyFishin…and it has not helped one bit.
      There are folks who have immersed themselves in trying to figure out who Fenn may have been talking about. No worky….
      Fenn has also said…he…and she…at different times.
      That’s almost like trying to reverse engineer the poem.

      • Ken, My take was ff said a couple people man and woman were close. I cited a woman since it would probably reduce the amount of potential searchers emailing ff. I could be wrong but I believe less women are searching than men. I have no reason to doubt what ff said. Just because the clue is old doesn’t mean it should be discounted. Especially when most people don’t even know where warm waters halt.

        • No bad intentions intended…or discounting your post. I was just posting that this has been talked about for a long time. Some folks think it was DG…some folks think otherwise. And you are right…nothing is obsolete in the Chase.

      • Diggin, you may be right. What is the “evidence” for this?

        I’m skeptical about any searcher(s) while BOTG
        searching for the TC, being within 200 feet of it. I’m more likely to believe “within about 500 feet”.

      • DG,

        I believe the woman ff referenced being close to the tc has the best chance of discovering it. Even if after exhaustive searches and retracing steps coming up empty. It’s still the best clue.

      • Hi Diggin: of course I have no knowledge of all the places you and your sisters have tromped around Montana, but if the chest is where I think it is, you’ve certainly been within 500 feet of it.

  44. can someone tell us how often Google earth updates? I was thinking it was every 2 or 3 years as the satellite rotates

    • Hello James. I did a little research online, and it’s really hard to say. Some say it’s every 6-20 days, or when needed/emergency. Others say it’s every month, but it won’t update on the Google Earth map, while others still say something else.

    • It depends upon where – some places seem to update almost every year while other more remote places are less frequently updated by GE.

  45. James – You said: “yall all need to remember the quiet deep thinker will find the treasure chest not the rambling angry name calling people….”

    I agree.

  46. Does anyone have an opinion of the likelihood the tc is in a State Park rather than a National Park?

    • I looked a bit into what the legalities would be for a treasure hunt on state and municipal land. I found that in the few I checked it would probably be doable with the treasure being classified as lost or abandoned property. The finder would have to leave the found property with the authorities for 30 to 90 days (depending on the local law) to give the authorities time to locate and contact the owner. If no owner claims the property it becomes the property of the finder.

      The caveat on this is that I’m not a lawyer, but the municipal codes I saw were fairly straightforward (state codes less clear) so I’m reasonably sure I got the gist of it. So for me I’m not ruling out state and municipal property.

        • F made a comment once about not wanting to say some sort of parameter defining questioniin or something. I dont have the exact quote but he said something like ‘lets just say it might be fun to redefine some of those terms”….Its cause me to wonder on occasion if maybe related to a land dispute, or area incorrectly labeled or whatever….or even that maybe the “finding of TC” itself could trigger a bigger even ultimately forcing a bigger look or investigation into “who’s land it ACTUALLY is”…that could be part of a bigger picture I guess.

          • Thanks pdenver

            So what do you think about that? I probably watch too much CSI late night…but I dont know if id put it past F TO secret it somewhere that WOULD somehow trigger a redefining of terms. Like it would force some type of legislation to correct or look into land that isnt actually owned by the national parks but has been claimed to be so…or whatever. I dont know how land rights work…but I think it’s be real cool if F somehow worked I. The correcting of some misjustice or whatever that would get flagged when TC was claimed.

          • You’re welcome, Jonsey1. I don’t know much about land rights either, but would find it quite interesting. With his passion for the land, history, and people therein, which we have read in Mr. Fenn’s stories, I wouldn’t put it pass him if he had done something like this. Over the past couple years, one of the places I’ve searched has changed and the changes have made me ill and disappointed to say the least.

          • Jonesy…you may be thinking about Fenn’s…” This is going to get me in trouble….” story about our allotted 2.086 acres and hiding the Dr. Pepper ?
            I have often thought that Fenn seems to be the kind of man to put some kind of twist like you are suggesting…just as a parting volley.

      • Many places, have that typical law in place…
        The problem come down to “contact of the owner of the item{s}” fenn left is autobiography. This brings up a few problems… prior or after death of the previous owner of the item{s}.
        In most case, if death has occurred, the next of kin or estates gets the ownership of the “items” {and we’re not talking about a lost wedding ring here}… so we’re back to…
        What if there is no legal question?

  47. Sometimes things are taken out of context of what F has written or said, it sometimes is illustrated on this blog. And sometimes when F says something that I believe is metaphorical, some take it as literal. The point being is that hanging on to every word that F says or speaks may be part of the problem in solving the poem.

    Please don’t think I’m saying F should be ignored. I also think that he is misunderstood simply because things where said in different ways back when he was younger as an example on page 12, 4th paragraph of TTOTC, when he was talking about the cashier’s wages he says, “….six-bucks-fifty and hour….”, Most people would not say it that way now. People also say things in a different way across the country. This does cause people to say, whaaaaaat? The metaphors back in the day are somewhat different.

    I think the above makes it hard to use what F means, that makes me to listen harder, to pick out important things but not to hang onto other things as some causes clutter. The things I rely on the most is the book and the poem which I feel both are key to a good solve. The rest I put in a category of “foot notes” they are not as important, but still important.

    The one thing F said on one occasion people have been within 200 feet of the treasure, and on another occasion it’s 500 feet. It has to be one or the other, F if you are reading which is it? Also the maximum altitude he spoke of, was that a guesstimate “above” the TC or actual? The altitude is more important to me

    Just say’n IMO 🙂

    • Note: I didn’t mean that F was young when he was in the book store. Most of us learn and say a lot of things when we are young and carry those things on through out our lives. IMO

    • CharlieM;

      You say, “The one thing F said on one occasion people have been within 200 feet of the treasure, and on another occasion it’s 500 feet. It has to be one or the other, ” F

      Why must it be one or the other?

      I am walking down a trail. I stop at an “overlook” spot. I am
      200′ away from Indulgence, but do not know it. I continue walking down the trail to a sign that says trail #1 right, Trail #2 left. I am now 500′ from Indulgence.

      I email Forrest and tell him about my adventures. Forrest recognizes the “Overlook” spot and the “Sign” spot – He now knows that I was within 200′ of Indulgence, and also within 500′.

      Seems logical to me – JDA

      • JDA,

        What you said is possible, but I’m talking about 2 different occasions which creates the question, which one is the nearest anyone has been?

        • “Which one is the nearest anyone has been?” DAH – the 200′ or am I missing something? JDA

          • JDA,

            I believe you are missing something, the two are contradictory to me.

            I can’t find where there is a video of either, I would like to see the actual statements, so I can see the physical reaction of F. If it is just written that is no help, because I can’t see a reaction.

            I would like to see a video if there is one, about the highest altitude limit.

            I was a investigator, physical reactions means quite a bit.

          • I did find the video at tarryscant, F said in an interview with KOAT News, “People that have been at 200 feet from the treasure, didn’t know they were there.” So the closest is 200 feet, for my solve 500 ft is null.

            I still can’t find a video about the highest altitude.

          • I’m not sure someone within 10 feet could find it. The manner in which ff hid it seems to be his ace in the hole.

          • Hi CharlieM: Forrest makes a clear distinction between inviduals that have been within 500′ of the chest, and those that have been within 200′. I’ve posted this many times, but here once again from “The Lure” post-screening Q&A video on 5/18/2017 is my transcript:

            Q: “How do you know searchers have been within 200 feet of the treasure?”

            A: “Well, because there … people have told me exactly where they were, and that’s the only reason I know. And, and, that 200 feet I think is pretty accurate. But there weren’t very many people within 200 … lots of people within 500 feet of the treasure. But, uh, the people that were with(in) 200 feet didn’t know that they were that close to the treasure, and they walked right on by. And of course I would never tell ‘em that, ‘cuz they’d, uh, they’d try to remember where they had been.”

          • I am not sure Forrest has ever said anything about altitude. All he has referenced is “feet”. Some have interpreted this as distance, some altitude or elevation.
            The only references to altitude that I know of relate to 5,000 feet and 10,200 feet elevation. Good luck in your search – JDA

          • FlyFishin;

            Not sure where you got your 10′ – Here is one quote from Forrest

            “I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.” – Please note that Forrest DID NOT say, “It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not SEE it,”

            I interpret this to mean – If you are within 12′ it is because the clues have led you to this spot, and you will know what to look for – JMO – JDA

          • Thx JDA, I had not read that. My 10 ft was a random thought. If ff said it then I believe it.

    • CharlieM,
      If I may I would like to add a to this conversation. My take on his commitment is slightly different than yours. In my mind, the area where the chest is hidden has a road, I’m fairly positive it would be a gravel road. There will be a lookout about 0.5 mile from the road. The chest is hidden within 500 feet from this lookout. There are occasional visitors to the lookout and in my opinion these are the people that Mr Fenn classified as being within 500 feet. It is my opinion the chest is hidden below this lookout within 200 feet of a hiking trail or an animal path. One, or possibly few searchers too this path and wrote to Mr Fenn describing where they where. I think I know who one of the searchers is. If I am right, she got there purely by accident. This is not the person that solved that first 2 clues. All of the above is my opinion only.

  48. At the risk of repeating myself . . . since FF apparently showed the TC
    and the contents of it to several people before he hid the thing in the
    Rockies, then it’s possible that “lots” of people/folks/friends/relatives/etc.
    have been within 50 feet of the TC . . . But not while being “searchers”,
    hereby (arbitrarily) defined by me as people on a search hike in the
    Rocky Mountains, while on an expedition having an included purpose
    of finding/retrieving the trove secreted in the Rocky Mountains.

    And while I’m being technical, FF may not have even used the word
    “feet” in this context. One of his postings used a symbol ( ‘ ) which
    can mean “feet”, but can also mean “minute(s)” — i.e., in the context
    of navigation.

    Go back to the poem, folks.

  49. If many people, or searchers have been within 500′ of Indulgence, and only a small number, perhaps on or two a few have been 200′ of TC’s resting place, why would you have to walk an appx.one to several miles to secret it away?

    Because the access to this Marvel Gaze is is a Tarry Scant problem, meaning perhaps the treasure is not exactly stashed at the view of the Marvel Gaze, say just short of it, I speculate that it would make sense for us to understand why that dichotomy exists? Many at 500 few at 200?

    Let’s say that the Marvel Gaze is a beautiful overlook and the location is very scenic and grand, but there is not a trail to the spot, and even if there is, it is not safe, crumbling rock or slide area for example, so to insure safety, you must tarry scant, stop short of this scenic point or ourlook/outcropping but if you are bold, brave you may view the Marvelous Gaze, but not to find the chest, because the chest is short (scant) and the distance is a measurable determinant in the poem due to a sublime or secreted design like half the distance, or certain number of steps short but in a “tangent” to the place where he parked his sedan and walked the possible 1 to 2 miles IMO, since it may be at 10,200′ if it is near a mountaintop, and most lesser than 10,000′ pinnacles are not even marked on Google Earth or a good map of any state in the 4. So if close, how tall can it be?

    Also, since there is not human trail to this spot, it is likely popular for some reason, hence the many people/searchers within 500′. Ski run? Deep Gorge? What?

    What is the barrier that we must overcome that requires ust to walk the 1 to 2 mile walk is required? How would and 80 year old fare carting and bush whacking with 22 plus once and again with 20 lbs? 1 to 2 miles at best. But why many at 500′. Road, Train Track, Airfield?

    My theory is this, it cannot be thick brush, more like aspens or thin forest vegetation, and not to steep naturally almost level for most of the walk, so I smell Cattle Trail or similar non human animal trail, elk, deer etc…

    No human trial may rule out a ski run, or cross country ski run and most trial to mountain peaks, since most of them are human improved and designed to be Back Packed…Where does that leave us?

    If Forrest found this place like most good fishermen, which makes perfect sence, since ff likes the challenge of presenting the perfect cast with the hatch or nymph to drag Old George up from that bottom of a river in the rocks where it lives, it was probably located while he was searching for a short cut to some favorite holes along a small to medium creek/stream/river since most of the big ones may attract a lot of human trails along their banks.

    All of this converges in this “Marvel Gaze”, it is exactly 90 miles from Santa Fe, so look carefully my friends it was filmed on “The Threshold of a Dream” is actually on the border and in and out 11 times on its 64 mile journey. I will write a Winter Thoughts II very soon and post it for all to see. Why would kids like this? Show it to a KID..

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-GD4vhA3No

    TT

  50. charlie wrote:
    “Ken, since you like the tarry scant website, maybe you should do a search with “walk”, because all I see him saying is a form of “walk”. Maybe I should do a search with “went”. … Forrest uses “walk” so many times, it’s not out of the ordinary to think that walking is involved …”
    ——————————————————————————————————
    Charlie …
    Oh I am absolutely of your opinion. FF expects searchers to walk/hike. That’s a big part of the chase; it’s called BOTG.

    Another part of the chase is driving to the parking site, which posters here like to ignore. I happen to think that the poem contains clues to get searcher to the correct parking spot. In other words my geographic scale for the clues is quite different from the scale of other searchers. But I have learned that most searchers on this blog do not even know what is meant by “geographic scale”; even worse, these searchers apparently have no desire to learn.

    FF uses the phrase “WENT right by” (which could refer to driving), several times, charlie, as I quoted way above. I guess you, like others here, don’t trust dal’s cheat sheet, which duplicates FF quotes found in Tarry Scant and other resources. (A word in readers ears >>> as one poster did above, don’t PUT DOWN the cheat sheet, which is part of dal’s site here).

    Charlie, I did go back through the Tarry Scant website, using the word “walk”. I came up with 2 FF quotes, as “walk” relates to the first 2 clues, as follows:

    FF said: “There are several people that have deciphered the first two clues. I don’t think they knew it, because they WALKED right on past the treasure chest.” In other words if these searchers didn’t know the items were clues, they didn’t really “decipher” them at all, did they? They guessed. Later, they accidentally walked in close proximity to the chest. So this quote is largely irrelevant because it is so ambiguous.

    FF also said: “There have been people that have figured out the first couple of clues and WALKED right past the treasure chest”. Basically the same quote.

    In conjunction with FF’s use of 9 clues in the poem, for him to say that people deciphered the first 2 clues and “walked” right on past the chest is … inane … in a literal sense. I think he uses the term “walk” to emphasize his hiking-in-nature theme.

    I would thus be wary of these post-poem verbal comments of his if taken in a literal sense. To hang one’s entire solution on 2 verbal comments, vague and inane, made external to TTOTC is risky, in my opinion.

    I will go with the 9 clues in the poem, with some clues telling searchers how to get to the parking spot, and other clues telling searchers how to get from the parking spot to the chest, and this second part involves walking/hiking, to be sure.

    Others can take FF’s verbal comments literally. Others can also express disrespect for dal’s cheat sheet all they want. I actually find it useful.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken ~’ To hang one’s entire solution on 2 verbal comments, vague and inane, made external to TTOTC is risky, in my opinion.’
      Two?! Only Two? that is all you have found is two comments that refer to “walking”… LOL I posted more than that in a single comment and I didn’t even hit the top tip of the Iceberg.

      The only beef you have, seems to be; you don’t want terms as “went by” to have any association to the many other terms fenn has used… “walked by” “walked past” etc.

      Your argument is base solely on, what you hope “went by” means, to have it be Incorporated into your “scale” of your theory. That’s great, knock your socked off and have a go at it.
      Your argument / debate / or just being overly protective of your precious “scale” theory… lacks any real information to back up the idea; that alternate transportation [ other than stomping ] is needed to be used between clues.
      And don’t play the whine game … ‘Another part of the chase is driving to the parking site, which posters here like to ignore.’
      The man had to drive somewhere to hide the chest, right? Because we ‘know’; “The treasure is hidden more than 8.25 miles north of the northern limits of Santa Fe, New Mexico.” I highly doubt an 80yr old man is going to carry 42lbs from his home in a backpack just to get to that distance from SF. NM. Or did you miss that comment in “fundamental Guidelines” created by fenn himself… at the top of every page, in the header, on this blog.

      IF.. all you are able to find on two personal blogs, are ‘two comments’ with the term “walk” used… LOL Ya might want to dig a little deeper, and not just stop at what works for your theory and dismiss all the others.

      I get it… you have a theory that involves driving. You argue points that driving between clues is part of the solution to the challenge… But you have not shown any logical reasoning for your argument, other than you feel, “went by” can’t mean the same as “walked by” when fenn talks about the process he took to hide the chest, the process searcher told fenn they did in e-mails, the process fenn suggests to us, by way of other Fundamental Guideline;
      “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”
      But I’m sure you and I have different opinions of the word “solve” as well. So, just to be clear on my end… a solve is a completed task, start to finish. So, IMO… the start is at your vehicle, working through the 9 clues, to the hide, twice.

      End of BSing… that’s because, that is all anyone are really doing when we visit a blog.

      OZZY, My ending commentary is starting to be as long as my post..lol.. any suggestion? [ hmm i left that wide open. didn’t I? lol ]

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