Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Forty Three


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628 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Forty Three

  1. Seeker,

    You are on a roll… Santa must have brought you a new keyboard to type comfortably. I have no suggestions, I think ‘end of commentary’ is good to keep, cause it also remind us that it was a blog post what we just read and not a novel, lol. I fear that if they get a little longer you will need to finish them with a double omega, lol lol… But seriously now, your last post to pd regarding TLIG was a good read.

    • Ha! Oz,
      It took 70 plus words, 6 lines, 5 sentences?, w/ added ‘…’ and ‘lol,’ to tell me I talk too much? – [insert smiley face]

      Oh crap… did i just dissect your post? I’ve been at this poem way took long…

      End of… err,… thinking and analyzing overload.

      • Hello Seeker. I’m sorry I missed your response yesterday. What you had to say is interesting and very possible. I think Mr. Fenn’s comments certainly need to be considered and looked at in an overall view…big picture. I think in the latter part of his quote for which is in question, the word “disabled” made me pause.

        • My memory is that ff gave that response about disabled people having a lot of fun searching in response to a question from a woman whose husband was in a wheelchair…asking whether or not they could potentially find the TC, given his physical limitations. I can’t find it on TS. I could be wrong about it. But if not, that may also be why that sentence doesn’t follow at all from the question…

          • Hello Lady V. I seem to recall slightly about the response, but not enough about it. It’s possible the response may be something to do with the couple. Thank you for responding.

          • Is this what you are referring to?

            5Q) Your treasure hunt has inspired people worldwide to discover history, culture and nature, but many people, (even in the US) might be deterred because they don’t live near the Rockies or can’t afford to travel. Should they be deterred? Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?

            I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.

  2. I’d like to pick up on something LIG said on the previous Odds n Ends post. She hypothesized that FF didn’t expect GE to develop as quickly as it has, and that the Chase was initially designed to require BOTG. If this is true, it certainly fits with my experience.

    The early part of my search, connecting the first four or five clue locations, revealed a number of physical objects. The later clues revealed a mix of physical objects and Google satellite representations. It fits with a lengthy development time span that saw the available technology gradually improve, and become an integral part of the plan. Of course, I’m well aware that not everyone believes in this scenario, but it nevertheless dovetails neatly with the history of the Chase.

    I still don’t know how it was all achieved, but Mr. Fenn seems to have some rare talents. I must admit that, at times, I’ve been guilty of taking for granted the staggering amount of work that I believe FF has put into his treasure hunt.

    To conclude, if you’re open to considering a “flight plan” solution, rather than a confined area hunt, you may get to see just how remarkable FF’s input has been (fake turd on tire excepted – that’s [mostly] at home with me!).

      • Yes, it carried on improving, and actually is able to provide a remarkable level of confidence now.

        • Expanding upon your note and “remarkable level of confidence” with GE, perhaps that could also lead to a “remarkable level of over-confidence”.

          Too much information can be counter productive. It reminds me of an old saying:

          “a wealth of information creates a poverty of attention…” Herbert A. Simon

          • That’s always possible, Covert One, but I’m happy to run with what I’ve got. If we all sit around second guessing each other’s solutions, this box of tricks is never going to be found. At some point you just have to get out there and do it. Right or wrong, you’ll know soon enough.

  3. Happy New Year!
    Odds & Ends…This morning I have been working with the first stanza of the poem. I am trying to work out the meaning of the words as they are placed. First “As…” The first line works without that word. Why is it there? Then, “…in there…” In there? IN? The first stanza may not be a ‘clue’ in the ‘party of nine’, but hints…ah, hints maybe? “I can keep my secrets where…” why not “I can keep my secrets THERE”. Why does ff distinguish ‘new and old’ riches? Is it a ‘hint’?
    Anyway, the fates are talking to me…one of my facebook friends reposted from five years ago something that they had posted back then…
    A photo with the caption overlayed that states:
    “The cave you fear to enter holds the treasure you seek” – Joseph Campbell. Normally, I would interpret it as a ‘be brave in life’ admonition.
    But since it came while I was thinking hard about the first stanza, I’m gonna try to work in the concept that “IN THERE” actually means IN THERE. Maybe the Indulgence ain’t actually ‘in there’ but, part of the beginning of the chase involves an enclosed passage of some kind.
    Looking around the webby places, I see little indication of caves or passages as part of this quest.
    I’ll get back to you on this particular chase theory…

    • Over 40;

      And so the chase begins. Yea for you. Others disagree, but I have used the following as my guide:
      “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f

      Sorry if I have posted this to you before, but it is MY guide.
      ” study every line, every word. ” I have looked up almost every word – like “AS” – As can mean “Since” – “Since I have gone alone in there…” – You too should be alone when you go “In There” (Where-ever “In There” is. I agree, it could be an enclosed passage or chasm or something like that.

      Good luck with your search – JDA (Have FUN)

  4. Add to my last post…I see little indications of caves or passages as part of this quest…

    Add: …that would fit the rest of the clues.

    • Over 40 something,
      fenn has said; the treasure… um the chest is not in a cave, tunnel or mine. So ya have to wonder if any of the clues would refer to such as well.

      But while we’re talking about stanza one, the interesting part of the beginning of the poem “As I have…” might relate to stanza’s 5 “I’ve done it…”
      Why are they written the way they are?

      In stanza one we are told of “Hints of riches new and old” in stanza 5 we are told of answers.. “I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak” ~ related?

      But, lets take some thoughts a bit further; ‘IF’ hoB is not associated with a structure because the “treasure is not associated with a structure”… then it could be assumed none of the clues or the “treasure” or the chest is as well.

      Why did I separate treasure and chest?… I didn’t… I separated “treasures”… Could stanza one be saying, fenn went to where his “treasures” are at?
      As I have gone [ is in past tense ] alone in there “with” my treasures [ to be past tense as well, or “Known” of prior to be there ] “With” in this case would mean to “accompanied” or to go and be present with. And the riches of new and old is what is, and has always, been there, in fenn’s special place.

      So why would “I’ve done it” be important to understand vs. “I have gone” They are both past tense to something that was done [ past tense ], right?
      Yet, the question is asked… “why is it I must go and leave my trove…? That is present or future tense, and doesn’t really line up with having “Done or Gone” anything or anywhere.

      Why might this be important?
      It tells the possibility of why the words like “treasures” vs. “Chest” vs. “Trove” are used and placed in the poem. Because we have been told, every word was deliberate and we shouldn’t discount any word…

      The funny thing is… and I have looked hard for this… I have not found in any ATF comment fenn ever saying “treasureS” in relation to the chest or retrieval of it… So why is it plural in the poem?……… “With” in relationship to “Treasures” doesn’t have to mean; bring along… it might be [for meaning, example ] “go to – to accompany” his “treasure{s}” of riches new and old < his special place. In an interpretation of a poem's word usages.

      Maybe, Just maybe, the location of the clues are within/realted to, the answer{s} he already knows, of… where his treasure{s} wait for him.

      Just another way of analyzing the poem as a whole [using those pesky filler stanzas]…
      but it won't get much leg action… it may be over-complicated for some who think this poem is not such a cake-walk straightforward decipher. lol, I mean, one little word like "With" or 'have-ve' couldn't have such an impact on the poem, right? That sound like it would be a key to understanding something.

      End of commentary [translation; BSing]… well, for now.
      Ha! Ozzy.. I think I found my closing line. or I could just go back to I..M..O

      • Yes ,Seeker.- The Golden Handshake ! It is the “it” in the golden years- treasure(s) bold. IMO .

      • Hi Seeker:

        “Why are they written the way they are?”

        Maybe because sometimes you need to use odd words or odd grammar to force certain letters to appear where you want them.

        • Right, but for what reasons?
          It’s a thin line to walk when we think about a “letter” to a word vs. the word itself or the placement of it.

          Example; If counting words is part of this… do we count I’ve or there’ll as one or two words.
          { I’d say one for this example only because the spelling out of two word vs one doesn’t change the sentence or line, just the word count } A type of needed exchange to keep things just right.

          But if we take a letter from one word and work that into a number, or letters from many words and create another word… is that not a cypher or code?
          Some call the poem a puzzle. Sometimes I’m not sure how they mean that… so I say clear of those conversations most of the time.
          A puzzle is pieces that need arranging or aligned [ cross word puzzles for example ] or it can just mean the poem is a puzzling, as perplexing. The first would seem to be a coded message within a poem.. I have a hard time that is how we solve this with fenn’s after the fact comment.

          LOL trust me when I say I have looked into these possibilities… but fenn debunk those, imo. with his comment… they will not assist a in solving the poem.

          It’s a very thin line many are walking when thinking about ~’Maybe because sometimes you need to use odd words or odd grammar to force certain letters to appear where you want them.’ LOL you even use the words “force” them to be where ‘you want them’… I heard a whoooshhh, didn’t you?

          • Seeker—-
            Can I give an example of “forcing” letters to appear where you want them? I am not a word with. But I did this in a short period of time. This is a very poorly worded sentence– but I am just using it as an example:

            Seeker’s best ideas look marvelously prepared.

            Seeker’s bEst idEas looK marvElously prepaRed.

            I have placed your name into these words by moving over one letter at a time in each word. SEEKER appears as first letter first word (S), second letter second word (E), third letter third word (E) and so on to hide the name seeker in the sentence.

            This, or something similar may be what Zaphod is referring to when speaking of letters “forced” into position. This is a bad example, (I’m not too bright), but it might help a bit.

          • Hi Sparrow: don’t sell yourself short. That is a perfect example of steganography. I suspect Seeker may not like it because it “smells like” a code, but honestly is it that difficult? No higher math required, no degree in cryptanalysis. Simple enough for a child to figure out.

          • Sparrow,
            I just saw this. Sorry for the delay.
            Code, how can it not be?
            It is designed to create a word that is not present as a word in normal writing. It is meant to be hidden and not seen unless another understands they need to look for it. It’s far from “plain English” and has “subterfuge” all over it.
            IF this is ok… then using the capital letters in each line and having their given order in the alphabet – such as A = 1, B = 2 in order of placements… then we have 5 A’s then 2 B’s, or 52 …etc. and those can be used as coordinates, right?
            We could even count how many letters appear in each line, such as; E = 5 in the first line of the poem and do something with that as well. I have even suggested the need for 6 stanzas might infer word count of each line giving a stanza 4 numbers, such as stanza 5 being 8588 and might be a elevation point for a clue.

            The ideas go on and on and on… But where do we draw the line to what is a coded message vs. meaning of words for deciphering in a poem? In the beginning of this challenge it was a anything goes idea for possible theories… but now, we have many aft the fact statements from fenn telling us what not to do and where not to look, right?

            If folks would heed fenn’s comments, with just a little common sense, nobody would fall off cliffs trying to climb them, or drown in freezing cold waters in mid winter, or get arrested for being places they shouldn’t be digging up the place. So, when fenn tells us codes and ciphers will not assist in finding the chest… tells us not to mess with the poem [ and rearranging letters in a word or words to create other words with completely different means… imo is messy ].

            I always fall back to the ATF to help me. The one that sticks in my mind the most is; “I looked up words and definition of words and changed them, went back and rebooted… it turned out exactly like I wanted”

            Here’s the way I take that comment… He looked up meanings of words to find words that worked just the way he needed them, by their definitions, and some meanings are not what many would think they should be. he went back and forth, changing words [ not their spellings ] until it worked.

            One of my examples has been “take it in the canyon down” at first this seem to say; we need to travel into a canyon. But now we know fenn needed to make ‘two trips’ right? is an 80 yr old going to hike in and out of a canyon with a heavy backpack up and down twice?… there is a Q&A that implies he wouldn’t.
            So can take it in mean to observe more than go? and does that change how we can read the poem?

            Is hoB a place after wwwh? or is hoB the location of wwwh sits below?
            Does HLnWH need to be a separate location miles away from wwwh or hoB? Or can HLnWH ‘ just ‘ be WWH and HOB, line of thinking.

            Some will say this take the order and messes with it… but does it? or are we simply reading the poem too literal because we only think the words can mean this or that and nothing else.

            Fenn said this was difficult… and he also ruled out the use of codes and ciphers… LOL but at the same time… one comment itches my britches… Andrew got it mostly right!

            Wait?! What? the guy’s entire theory was a coded message -?- with multiple key words! What did he mostly get right?
            Did he have the correct word that is key among all his key words?
            Is his method correct?
            Is the area he was looking at correct?
            Did he stumble upon many correct clue references?
            Is Zap really Andrew’s twin brother?

            Umm, sorry, I got on a roll there for a moment… I don’t believe, by your example, this is a correct method after reading fenn’s ATF’s… and trust me when is say I have played with these methods… lol how do you think I found out that from the A in As to the T in treasures is 42 space counts? LOL… it was one of my, couldn’t get to sleep nights when I figured that out… However, after a while, we need to ask ourselves this one simple question; ” what took me so long”
            That comment doesn’t tell me we need to try every possible coded, cryptograph, or build an enigma decoder, or buy another cracker jack box because my decoder ring must be broken.
            It’s obvious that understanding the poem is difficult… Yet, something along the way should tell us, Ah ha! that wasn’t so hard.

        • Zap….Are you still trying to coax the clues from the words in the poem by picking and choosing which letters to use? Any kind of those shenanigans I think would be considered some form of “code” or “cipher”.
          I know you have argued that your method is exempt from that category because…I am not sure. I just paid attention to those threads… and it still makes no sense to me.
          Is that how you found your WWH ?

          • Ken–
            I don’t think Zap is “picking and choosing” which letters to use. He is seeing certain patterns which have been placed in the poem.

            They are not codes or ciphers– they are part of the architecture of the poem. What I gave above is a bad example— though it was “designed” to hide “seeker” in the words.

            Forrest has employed other ways IMO, but they are designed into the poem and cannot be found by random means.

          • Sparrow

            You can use steganography to pull words out in multiple ways. Zap most certainly is choosing which.

            I can pull names of Montana towns out of the clue lines. So what. There are lots of town names.

            Let’s not forget JP pulled New Mexico names out of the lines eons ago.


          • Lug/Seeker

            Oh sure, I can “pull” anything I want out of the poem. That’s easy. But once again, I am not talking about “pulling” words from the poem.

            I am talking about “finding” words that have been placed in the poem in an exact manner— not coincidence— but by architecture.

            I will give one small example, though there are many better ones. Gone Alone In There– each first letter when put together spells GAIT. Now, I didn’t “pull” that— it is THERE.

            Now, has “gait” been hinted at by Forrest? It most certainly has. If you want to discount it or call it coincidence that is your prerogative. I believe it was “placed” there in the poem’s architecture on purpose. It is not a code or cipher— it can be plainly seen. Again, this is just one small example.

            I respect your opinions though– I truly do. Far be it for me to not take your inquiries and suggestions seriously. I just think it is a mistake to discount these things. All the best to both of you!

          • Sparrow –

            What I am telling you as that you can use the same technique to FIND all sorts of words including names of places in Montanna.

            And so what? There are lots of words GAIT and town names like MARSH. It doesn’t mean he put those there intentionally.

            You tell me. Does your solve include the word gait and Marsh Montana?


          • Lug—
            No. I don’t know anything about Marsh, Montana to be very honest.

            As far as GAIT goes, I do not have a solve that uses it. But I do believe it has been placed in the poem for a reason. It can very likely be related to “walk” and “halt”.
            When Forrest speaks of his three ducks he mentions one with a strange “gait” which causes it to walk slower– he calls it “Tail End Charlie”. There are other hints to the word “gait” also. So “gait” appears to play a part in the puzzle.

            Again, I know nothing of Marsh, Montana— I have centered far more in Wyoming since I started searching a year ago.

  5. Nice rendition covert one. And voxpops just a wink and a nod.. I will be boots on ground asap to see if I am correct although the thaw will be late this year. It is a blazing 14 degrees here so must be subzero where I am going. The metal detector would make a quicker sweep but the borrower did not return it. Even though I think I have solved it wisdom tells me it might just be a fig newton of my imagination. Or all that sugar I ingested over Christmas.. No creatures are stirring this new years eve here in okla

  6. I live 95 miles south of tulsa in the rolling hills. I inherited a 90 acre old farm here. Where does the sparrow have it’s nest?
    I saw it was warmer in my hidey place guess than here so I mispoke

  7. Very nice!! I live in Southern California. I asked because one of my “solves” actually starts in Oklahoma near Broken Arrow. Wow– 90 acres is great. You are one lucky person! lol

  8. I wanted to share something I was thinking about again this morning. There is this dumb riddle that goes like this:

    Three men jump in the river and only two get their hair wet. Why?
    The answer is that one of them is bald.

    Dumb riddle, but interesting in that it shows we normally don’t think in obvious directions. If you ask this most people will say something like: “did one of them have a bathing cap on?” or something to that effect.

    The poem may have an obvious answer to it by that we are not seeing. We want to “add” something to make it work— at least I see myself doing that quite a bit. There is something very obvious, and right in front of us that we just aren’t seeing. I know many have stated similar things— but it just makes me want to go back to basics— just read the poem.

  9. It is I live on the hilly tree side of the state. but weather dictates everything. Hot cold tornadoes and now earthquakes. Definitely no place for the meek. Maybe we will meet. In the middle near a mt in the Rockies somewhere!

  10. Happy New Year Searchers,

    As something to consider I keep coming back to the possible connection between Fenn’s treasure location clues and Osborne Russell the famous trapper and journalist of the 1800’s. What a fascinating person he was. He was uneducated yet articulate and could document his travels in a very imaginable and vivid way. He experienced the West at a transition stage after the Lewis and Clark expedition, as hostilities with Indians were at a turning point. If you haven’t done so, I urge you to read Journal of a Trapper.

    I keep thinking there might be a link between Russell’s journeys and the poem, but just can’t quite make any confident connections. There are so many places in Russell’s journeys that relate to Fenn and his poem/books. Like Jackson Lake, Lewis Lake, Yellowstone geysers, lakes, streams, geographic features and even a path which could tie in with the poem.

  11. @anyone – I posted this at Chase Chat, but did NOT get much of an answer to my question … so I’ll try again here. On the thread Collection of Statements here, not clues and not from the book (on CC blog) at 09-22-2013, 11:24 AM, #34, James Perotti posted this gem: … he did have a spot in mind where he wanted to “inter” himself with the chest. Mr. Fenn said that the spot was just big enough to squeeze his body and the chest “into”. (His words)

    Squeeze into? Just big enough? Huh? I’ve NEVER heard that statement. Is James Perotti correct? Did FF actually say that?

    • Yes. One of his original plans was to dress up like Santa and,”squeeze” himself and the chest into a chimney somewhere in Montana. But he changed plans apparently after he regained some weight. My New Years resolution is to stop with this very bad humor, so you should be free of it in 2018. It is still 2017 where I am so I am allowed this post. Thank you.

    • Becky…why are you mixing your comments and questions with references to Chase Chat ? You have been around long enough to know that probably isn’t a great idea.
      Am I seeing a pattern here?

    • Hi Becky, Mr. Fenn, made that statement in an early article or interview, I don’t remember which.

    • Thankyou Becky this is confirmation for my solve. I had never seen that comment about not being able to squeeze his body in.

  12. Happy New Year to everyone on this blog. Have a great 2018!!!! Happy New,Year to Forrest & Peggy too should you happen to visit the blog. And thanks to Dal for providing this place for all of us!

  13. Happy New Year to everyone on the chase including Forrest, Peggy and his family.

    I would also like to take this opportunity to say that whilst I was not taking part in the chat over the last week I was however still reading the comments.

    Like most of you guy’s I also read some of the comments regarding some of the people that have not had a good year (2017) through either poor health or businesses not doing well.

    I would just like to take this opportunity to wish you guy’s all the best for (2018)

    Ronnie the Scot

  14. I’m just finishing up a very long 12 hour shift at a 911 disptach center. A lot of the calls around the holidays are domestic issues. Families can’t seem to get together without fighting….

    Thank you all for being civil to one another (for the most part) … be safe and be kind to one another!

    Happy New Year!

  15. For JDA, here’s an example, which I found in this new year, that dovetails nicely with my statement that searchers might want to put more weight on a f quote that comes later on than a previous f quote dealing with the same topic. As I said, it could be that f cleaned it up a little since saying it the first time.

    “Well in my book there is a poem and there are 9 clues in the poem and the clues are in consecutive order; If you want to find the treasure chest, you have my book there, I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally, the poem and the rest of the book, then go back and read the poem 6,8,10 times, study every line, every word, then after you do that read the book again slowly with the idea of looking for clues or hints that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” ff — Report From Santa Fe with Lorene Mills(May 13-16th 2011).

    “What I tell people to do…if you’re really serious about looking for the treasure…get ‘The Thrill of the Chase’ and read it and then go back and read the poem over and over and over again. And then go back and read the book again, but slowly looking at every little abstract thing that might catch up in your brain, that might be a hint to help you with the clues. Any part of some is better than no part of any.” ff — Moby Dickens Book Shop in Taos/11-2-13.

    The first quote is what you have often quoted when discussing what you use as your guide. You pointed out to me that f used both of the words clues and hints to describe what he used in the book to help searchers with the clues in the poem. I’d say my statement to you comes into play there also as f cleaned that up by only using the term hint in his very next sentence (came later). That quote of f’s was in May 2011.

    The last quote was made over two years later. It speaks only about hints in the book.

    • FD –

      You do know Fenn says there are clues in the chapters of the book, right?

      He wrote it in the actual book, didn’t he? Am I crazy? I don’t want to have to dig my book out.


      • Lugnutz,

        I’m having trouble finding any direct reference in TTOTC to clues in the chapters. However, if that is the case I would really like to know. Far as I can tell the only mention Forrest makes to the Treasure is in the chapter Gold and More, where the poem is published. He does state on the page following the poem that “there are also subtle clues sprinkled in the stories”. Interesting that here he uses the word “clues” rather than “hints”.


        • McKendree;

          I am not sure you will find any DIRECT reference in TTOTC to clues in the chapters.

          Like you say, Forrest says that there are subtle clues (or HINTS) in TTOTC, but they were not placed there deliberately to help the searcher. If they were not placed there deliberately, certainly thwere will be no DIRECT references – they ARE subtle!

          You have to look for them, and you have to recognize them for what they are once you come across them – JMO – JDA

  16. Happy New Year to Forrest, Peggy, Dal and all the great folks on the Chase! Warm wishes for a safe and prosperous New Year.

  17. Mr. Fenn said, that he hid the chest in the summer. He said that no one was around when he hid the chest, but he also said that people continue to arrive at the hiding place. This makes me think that the hiding place might be a spot that gets traffic on the weekends, but not so much during the week?

    • Or a winter place, like near a ski hill. Nobody would be there in summer, and people are likely to be passing by in winter without knowing the significance of where they are at.

      • Hello Jonsey1. This is a good thought. I believe there have been searchers who have considered Taos Ski Valley. Twining comes to mind, which reminds me of the story, “Tea With Olga”, being Twining is a name brand of tea. Also nearby, is Bull of the Woods, which reminds me of the story, “Buffalo Cowboys”, which Cody being a male buffalo, bull, in the woods. It may not be correct, but it’s a thought.

      • Hi Jonsey1, Yes, exactly. One of my sister in laws manages a big ski resort, It’s crawling with people during the season, but in summer it’s just the manager an assistant, and one or two staff working on the equipment and slopes.

        • I’m a fan of the Ski Santa Fe area….got drawn in on a tangent with Tesuque Peak. They did fall time rides on the Super Chief with the most beautiful views at the resort area…and the area is quite literally the mountains North of Santa Fe. 😉
          Its a fun rabbit hole to hop around in. Coincidences galore!

          • Plus…it shines some fun light on the “Millenium” Lift. Ppl aren’t actually hiking up the mountain. Lol. my stupid pun on ppl not being able to find it for a thousand years aka Millenium. Ba Dum Ching. Maybe closer to the Parachute or Free Fall run. Ill have to reconsult the map/off trail areas and figure out what I define as “close proximity” on the map. Coincidentally, like the ski run map, made by Brown.

      • Jonsey1, That is an interesting idea and one I had not thought of. My favorite solve (and really my only complete solve) is located not near a ski resort but in a cross country and snowmobile area. In the summer the trails are used by all terrain vehicles and motorcycle enthusiasts. However in my experience those folks don’t generally get off the beaten trails often and usually don’t hike much. Now I suppose I’ll get an earful from the atv people out there refuting my point and stating that I am implying they are lazy. However I think it’s generally valid. I have run across many atv riders in my years as an exploration geologist, and believe me most don’t bother to walk much after they reach their destination.

  18. It could also be a campground, that sees more traffic on the weekends. Or a campground, that opens later in the summer, after the snow melts.

  19. @James Perotti – Thank you, James, for your input. I tend to put more belief in the things that FF said in the beginning … rather than his later statements. But FF “squeezing” himself & the chest into a small space is very unusual because evidently he NEVER repeated that. A one-time “something” that he wanted to gloss over with the passage of time? Hoping that we would forget it? Maybe. I’va always heard him say that he planned to throw himself onto the chest. Oh, well … thanks again, James.

    I like your posted quotes about HOW to locate the hidey spot from TTOTC, but I cannot comprehend FF saying that “the hints are NOT deliberately placed to help the searcher”. That statement in conjunction with his instruction to “slowly look at every little abstract thing” seems to contradict FF’s other statement. Does that make sense, James? If so … HOW?

    @Ken – No deceptive reason for me mentioning Chase Chat. I simply wanted to supply my source. Besides, Ken, aren’t we all brother & sister searchers in the Chase? Several of us post on different sites. What’s the problem with that? None that I can see.

  20. I tend to believe like many others that the second stanza of Fenn’s poem is critical as to where to begin. The line “Begin it where warm waters halt” seems straightforward to me, and like some others I think this should be a unique location (not some obscure hot spring discharge for example of which there are hundreds) . Stated another way: this place where warm waters halt cannot, if you assume that it is a crucial and unambiguous beginning point be most of those places that you and I have come up with. So far I have only two unique possibilities, one of which is high in elevation and the other is of relatively low elevation. The following line of the poem states “And take it in the canyon down” . Now assuming that this is a literal statement, then the searcher must go down in elevation. I know that there are wordsmiths out there that think this may not literally mean downstream, but I disagree. And then there is the fourth line “Put in below the home of Brown”. Again implying going downstream or downhill. So isn’t the general discovery path one of going from high to low elevation ? If not, I must completely re-consider my concept of geographic clues imbedded in the poem.

    • McKendree,

      After putting in below hoB, could be a relatively flat area and could be one goes down further or one goes up in another direction. A canyon goes down but at what slope, some steep and some shallow and anywhere in between. Only one can decide after following the rest of the clues.

      Just say’n

    • McKendree ~’The line “Begin it where warm waters halt” seems straightforward to me, and like some others I think this should be a unique location (not some obscure hot spring discharge for example of which there are hundreds) .’

      I don’t think wwwh can be that unique either… there has to be some below SF [ whatever wwh refer to ]. So, places like the triple divide is out, imo. Even Isa Lake is a bit of a stretch because it drains opposite of it’s staring points.
      Glacier National park would need some twisting as well.

      But, It really depends on what other clues refer to. So, the problem does seem to be what wwh is… folks have deciphered it and have been there… what else brought them there?… did they have HLaWH correct? or any other clues, but just not correctly executed?

      We do have fenn saying if you know what hoB is, why would you be concerned about wwwh? And if you knew what hoB is, you’d go right to the chest… I doubt wwh is so unique there is only one or two…and we have been told, there are many and ‘nearly all’ are N. of SF….

      • Hi Seeker, I think it’s most likely that the searchers that got the first two clues right, simply made a lucky guess. To me the most bothersome thing, is the searchers that were at the hiding place, and had no idea that they were there. It’s very disheartening, to think that they went past 8-9 clues, and had no idea that they were on the treasure trail, that there was absolutely nothing that tipped them off. So much for BOTG. It seems that actually solving the clues, is the only hope.

        • “There are no shortcuts.” YUP – YUP – Ya’ gotta’ solve the clues (probably more than once in my estimation) – Once you solve the clues (For me, that means ALL of the clues) then put BotG – JDA

          • So solve like 40 clues then botg. The do as I say, not as I do approach…got it.

          • FD;

            40 clues? Nope, just 9 but once you solve the nine, you MAY not have found Indulgence, so you must try again, and again, and even again if necessary.

            Solving it once and walking away has not worked for close to 8 years FD – why not try something different.

            Who knows, you MAY have been in the area Indulgence is – solved it once, and then walked away to a new area – FAR from where she lies.

            We each have our own way of solving this riddle. You have yours, I have mine. I try not to ridicule your way… JDA

          • Yes, around 40 clues as you have described before…if I remember correctly.

            It’s not ridiculing to describe your process that you have explained. It’s not ridiculing to say that now you are saying don’t do botg till one solves all the clues when that’s not how you have described your path.

          • Sorry FD;

            I do not believe that I have ever said that I placed BotG to look for elements of the solve or clues. Each time I have gone out, I had solved the clues, I then put BotG to verify that how I had solved the clues was correct. Mostly they were, a time or two I blew it. Such is life. None of us are perfect.

            Solve one took me to an area – No treasure.

            Solve 2 took me from that area, up the trail (road – whatever) about a mile. –
            No treasure.

            Spent about four months looking in every nook and cranny (above or below water level) in this area – same result. BotG were to verify (or not) my analysis of what the clues meant.

            Next solve – A wild goose chase – Oh well.

            Next solve led me to exactly where I thought I should be, and evidence I found told me I should be there, and I learned a LOT!

            Next solve, I again solved ALL of the clues before putting BotG. I again found what I expected (Except Indulgence) but I found information that told me I had NOT made a mistake in going to where I went.

            And now, it is winter recess. I have again worked my way through the nine clues. I KNOW where the clues lead me. I KNOW what I will find, and THIS solve will NOT lead me to Indulgence, but I have already “solved” the next “Solve”, and this one WILL lead me to Indulgence (or so I believe) Solve, and verify – Solve and verify. That is how I do it.

            You do it your way, I do it mine. Enough said. You may not agree with my methodology, but you can NOT prove that it is wrong – just as I can not prove that your methods are wrong.

            But again I state, I TRY not to ridicule your by misrepresenting your methods. JDA

          • FD;

            When you are writing a software program, don’t you do the exact same thing? You develop an idea that you THINK will meet the needs of what your program is supposed to do – and you start writing code. Do you write the entire program before you make your first test? Certainly not. You write a portion of code and test it. It works, or it doesn’t. If it works, you stress test it to see if it will hold up against various outside influences. IF it holds up, you move on to the next hurdle. IF it doesn’t, you figure out why it didn’t work, correct it and test it again. etc.

            This is a logical approach. IF you are near the final piece of software, and it blows-up, do you start from the beginning again. Heck no, you start again from the last place that it worked well. I do the same.

            You see, FD, we are not so different after all – JDA

          • I never said we’re different. Some just don’t have the same interpretations of the method you are describing.
            F said this “If you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue.” f

          • JDA, you have posted before some of your latest botg trips (which you’ve done 16 or so) that you had figured out the clues well enough to have a good chance of bringing indulgence home. (That is paraphrased cause it’s a nightmare to go back and try to find the actual quotes on here).

            That means you think you have solved the clues well enough to get the tc.

            It also means that you need further information to get you to the tc on future trips. That defines what an additional clue or clues is/are.

          • Hi FD.

            I mean no disrespect to anyone, but I still have this itch to know why someone will go out so many times and not come back with the trove?

            Think about it for a moment. I’ve said they moved in haste.

            IMO – this is still my point.

            When these folks come home empty handed, I wonder what they think about.

            I also have thought about my misses, too. But learned from my mistakes.

            Why did I not come back with the chest? I was so sure I’d find the blaze!

            Should I just look locally? Go back to my original area? Gut instinct or not?

            Did I misinterpret a clue? What clue?

            These are just a couple of questions I asked myself when I too didn’t have the chest.

            Hopefully these are asked by those who venture out and come back with just a story.

            FF warned us it is a thinking game. IMO – thinking requires “time”.

            Time to just sit still and meditate on the poem. Think about the motivation of why it exists.

            If you are out hiking the wild with no real facts to back up your trip, why even go? Save yourself a trip and build upon the facts first, and then apply the facts to the geography of the region you search.

            Can you match factual data to the selected area the clues refer to? No? Your general solve is probably inaccurate. Probably is a strong word to take into consideration.

            Can you justify what the facts mean and how the clue is tied to it?

            How does the confirmation, if associated to itself, tie to the next clue? Does it connect to the next clue and geography?

            These are the questions that patience does not conform to. Eagerness and excitement voids patience.

            Patience is not done with haste. Haste will always lose.

            Forrest warns us.

            Best of luck to all this year….including me!


          • Once again FD….no disrespect…just giving others something to think about before they start their trek.

            We know FF means on the extreme and sometimes outlandish….but in truth, I think he is straight on with speaking to guide us all equally.

            Good luck to you.

          • I really don’t think many people are looking at the facts they need in order to solve the clues.

            It is an interesting way to look at why people go searching and come back with no trove.

            How many facts do these people actually have that relate to the area they search?

            Just because we can find a path, it does not mean it has relevance to FF’s life.


          • I know what you mean, Tim. Makes one wonder when some searchers start in the 5th or 6th stanza if they are not missing something in the first stanza that is crucial for the first clue…simpler too.

            Good luck to you, Tim. Cheers to all.

          • Good thoughts, Zap, on the buried part. It will be interesting to see what f meant with that quote of being exposed to rain and snow.

            Sometimes it just looks too easy as in this case with a possible meaning that the chest is just sitting there in the open…exposed to the elements. That doesn’t square too easily with no one will stumble upon the tc.

            Maybe f took the route of meaning something similar to a home’s foundation (the part underground) can crumble from being exposed to rain and snow. The rain and snow (water) still finds the underground foundation and applies pressure. So, the foundation is exposed to water’s destructive forces even underground. It just takes more time. Who knows?…lol.

        • James,
          That doesn’t surprise at all, In ‘full’ honesty.
          Sure, sure, I have asked many times in the past how searchers who live and breathe the chase can’t see what is in front of them, or even when they had solved a clue, they still dodn’t know it.
          But again, in ‘full’ honesty… it’s almost expected. fenn said this dang thing was difficult, nobody [ and imo, that means searchers as well ] will stumble upon it. If we haven’t figured it out yet, the man is meticulous and has great deal of patience. When he said “precisely” I take it as just that… exact and pin point… for all the clues.

          What I didin’t understand, is how searchers couldn’t understand when on site… looking at things, scanning the area, reading the poem, some even bring the book with them.

          This, imo, tells me no one has ever solved the poem far enough to “understand it.” Some have solved a clue ‘ reference ‘ but didn’t know why or what to do with it. Fenn said the clues are contiguous; meaning neighboring or touching, right?… I think the little beggars need to used from one point to another to be ‘precise’ for each of them…

          This is one reason I have pondered are we reading this poem wrong? fenn calls it a blueprint… but all I see is stomping… is anyone attempting to build anything from the poem??

          The first searchers, imo, didn’t get lucky… the actually solved the decipher at least two clues and it got them to a location… It was the location and lack of a “complete” solve that seemed to screw thing up for them.

          Fenn followed the clues… before the poem was complete… C-mon folks… why was the poem NOT complete (completed).?
          Just deciphering a clue reference is not enough… this is where I agree with Goofy and others… you need to see it the way fenn had to see it himself.
          And he warned us this would not be done on a Sunday picnic or spring break. Am I the only one asking why -?- about that as well.

          Even when clue’s reference are being solved… something is missing. Fenn seemingly needed to “complete” the poem “as he followed” the clues… what is it we’re not doing?

          End of commentary…

          • Yep, Seeker.

            I think the few searchers that sent f exactly where they were sent the correct locations of the first two clues because they were there and that’s how they traveled. They didn’t write anything more specific on their journeys to f so he can’t comment further.

            I also think that means those searchers didn’t fully understand the first stanza and that’s why they don’t have a good foundation for the architect’s plan.

          • Seeker: for all your talk of architecture and blueprints, I’d think you’d be more open to the idea of the building blocks of words (letters), as opposed to just their meanings. Your definition of a code or cipher does not match mine, but that’s not what matters. What’s more important is that your interpretation might not match Fenn’s.

          • Zap
            It more than apparent nobody’s interpretation matches fenn’s…
            But I do know what the definition of codes and ciphers are.
            And in this case the word ‘decipher’ means; succeed in understanding, interpreting, or identifying (something).
            And not so much; convert (a text written in code, or a coded signal)

            It’s kinda hard to convert “plain English” and keep it straightforward [ by any definition of the word ] If you only use certain letters of any word or combined words and use that to create, yet, another word.

            I highly doubt this comment is really an opinion to be honest… we have been told what fenn did… he looked up words and definitions of words… well, you know the rest.
            But to be politically blog related correctness; I’ll say I.M.O

            Which definition do you use?

          • Hi Seeker: in a true code or cipher, a message is hidden via letter substitution and/or transposition following some set rule(s). Thus, I do not consider anagrams or acrostics (for instance) to be codes or ciphers. In the former case, there is no tidy transposition rule to recover the original word. It is simply a letter scramble. Anagramming is an unreliable way of providing unambiguous information since as the pool of letters increases, the number of readable anagrams grows geometrically.

            Acrostics (like the GAIT and HORN that have been mentioned here a zillion times) are more a case of steganography than a code/cipher. No letters are rearranged, and there is no letter substitution. It is a technique that has been used in multiple armchair treasure hunts, so it is hardly unusual, irregular or unexpected. Even Arnold the “Governator” used it to humorous effect in a short letter to the California State Assembly many years back. (This being a family-friendly website, I will not share a link, but you can find it easily enough.)

            That said, if Forrest had used a simple acrostic in his poem, it would have been found within the first month.

          • Maybe it just e Zap.
            But if you place a message within in a message, it’s a coded message. One message says something different than the context of the original form.

            If you use definitions that don’t seem useful, because they are commonly use as a different definition. Then what you have is a cleverly written form of information that needs to be studied and understood.

            Do this with 166 words and the task becomes difficult to keep track of, with meaning or meanings that are to be utilized.
            Example; I say the word saddle to you… you may automatically think of a riding saddle. If I add geography might help… the definition or meaning of saddle just changed dramatically.

            If I use the term “In the wood” and that term means; to be in the saddle The the interpretation for geography and map use seems to imply a mountain passage.
            Or If I say “take it in” does it always mean to go in, or can it be viewing of.
            Can we take that even further when we are given a 147 pages of references to help? Then the task can become easier, or in some cases, very confusing.
            But that is our job… to figure out a poem’s interpretation…

            Each word, phrase, line, sentence changes as the poem progresses… each word used, has many meanings and usages…. changing its usage from one line to another… Such as the difference between treasure, chest, and trove.. changes the meaning to another possibility.

            And now add a book with 147 pages of references… the task becomes very difficult, because we now need to see if any in the book terminology helps with the poem.
            But it’s not impossible… LOL ya just needs a little more brain function than I apparently have.

            *IF it was easy, anyone could do it. fenn put decades into this… it’s going to take dedication to understand it fully.
            If you haven’t found a 10″ sq spot by now with a coded system or whatever you want to call it… it’s wrong. Once ya have the system broken it should reveal the answers, bang bang bang and have the chest…. Either ya got the wrong system or there is none.

            End of commentary.

          • Well, Seeker, we each have our approaches to tackling the poem. Mine relies as much on the interpretation of the words in the poem as their placement, while yours emphasizes deciphering the correct interpretation of Forrest’s words. I think my approach is more open-minded since it doesn’t eliminate some possibilities from consideration that yours does. But if you don’t believe stego is possible, then including it in the toolbox will tend to obfuscate the solution to the poem rather than reveal it. So I get your reluctance.

            “If you haven’t found a 10″ sq spot by now with a coded system or whatever you want to call it… it’s wrong.”

            I suggest that your hypothesis is in error. There is absolutely ZERO, I mean ZERO chance Forrest’s poem can lead you to a 10-inch spot out of the entire Rockies. No searcher has the tools necessary to navigate to that level of precision — even if such precision were imparted by the poem (which it is not, in my opinion). And frankly, it isn’t unnecessary. A 12-foot radius should be more than adequate by Forrest’s own reckoning — that’s an area over 200 times greater than your implied requirement of 10″-precision for success.

          • Zap wrote:

            “There is absolutely ZERO, I mean ZERO chance Forrest’s poem can lead you to a 10-inch spot out of the entire Rockies. ”

            I disagree.

            If you actually think this, then you really shouldn’t be playing this game.

            Good luck.

          • Zoso: navigate me to a 10-inch precision location 100 years from today. Sorry, you cannot. Even if the searcher has been provided precise latitude and longitude coordinates (where did she get ’em, btw?), she cannot do it because she has no means of establishing her own coordinates to that precision. Furthermore, even if she could pinpoint herself that accurately, the ground itself is moving relative to the datum of any coordinate system (as Seeker is fond of pointing out). In other words, the coordinates have a shelf life.

            If instead you are using landmarks, there is no landmark of the tiny size required that is going to reliably last or stay put for centuries, let alone 10,000 years. Even the semi-permanent USGS survey markers (of which there are about a quarter million in the U.S.) are distributed at an average density of only about 1 marker per 16 square miles. So unless you’re suggesting that Forrest hid the treasure on top of one of these benchmarks, you have a navigational precision problem.

          • Hi Zap.

            You wrote.

            “Zoso: navigate me to a 10-inch precision location 100 years from today. Sorry, you cannot”

            Not in 100 yrs…..I’ll be dead……but I will….eventually. :o)

            As for my theories and actions that I have taken on this journey……wow….where to begin?

            I have posted many of my techniques out here…..well sort of……

            You may have forgotten, but I am living a life using esoterism. Many cannot even fathom the effort it is required to achieve the peace I have acquired. Is it some magical ability or peace beyond recognition? Nope…..but one can achievve those levels of thought if one practices and learn those techniques. Some can take many, many years to even reach a level of that nature. Not a level I have achieved.

            But then again, many probably never even tried…..*shrugs*…..

            We each have a goal to reach, and we all do it in ways that we think we can achieve the goal. Evidently, that hasn’t worked to well, huh?

            Oh, I’ve stated I have a general solve, and will be put into action. My plan of attack includes nothing but facts, does yours? Can you define each clue as a fact associated to FF? IMO – you will need to.

            Begin it WWWH…..that is where I begin. I worked my way thru what I think are the nine clues, and now have the confidence to make another trip.

            You may second guess me….no worries….. I have already done so as well. I won’t know if this is the solve needed or not until I pick up the chest, huh?

            I know, I know…..I’m all talk…..but it is of being positive and optimistic.

            Didn’t FF say we need confidence to go look? I think I have enough…again.

            Cheers and good luck to you.

          • Zap;

            If I can lead you to say, a 10′ circle, but let you know EXACTLY what to look for within that circle, I have done my job.

            If what I direct you to, that is within that 10′ circle, indicates EXACTLY where the 10″ X 5″ box is hidden, haven’t I led you to EXACTLY where it is hidden?

            I think that the poem, Forrest’s 3 books and his ATF comments do EXACTLY that. I could be wrong, I have been wrong before, but I do not think I am wrong on this one.

            Come on Spring or early summer!!!
            JMO – JDA

          • Zap ~’I suggest that your hypothesis is in error. There is absolutely ZERO, I mean ZERO chance Forrest’s poem can lead you to a 10-inch spot out of the entire Rockies.’

            Seriously, did you actual say that?
            An off the top of the head response… If you find the blaze the chest is right there, line of thinking. maybe the blaze its self is only 6″

            Lets go with something easy… HLnWH to be a Glacial Boulder[s] [ it’s heavy right, and they are all over MT, WY, and CO… personally not sure about NM].
            Water high could be the water or Ice thickness stamped into a Geo-marker that can last for hundred of years. Or a water level of a highest point, etc.

            A simple explanation of a 5 0r 6″ Bronze plate can be a clue marker, location, elevation, boundary area, and an object that is not feasible to remove, and directly below could the chest hidden, just under the soil or smaller rock left by the same glacier deposit. Maybe even a volcanic rock picked up miles from its drop off point… a 10″ sq piece of land.

            The funny thing is, the whole dang poem could be about exact point of Geological survey markers and should stand the test of time, and will move with natural movement of the land… so for those hunting coordinates… this might be a fun try.

            Would it answer the question of: what took me so long? And what fenn might have been thinking down the road 100 yrs, 1000 yrs? and he followed the markers to complete the poem? { dang, now I sound like JDA with 9 blazes… sorry JDA… I couldn’t help myself }

            Zap, I like going head to head with you… especially when we disagree. Arguments against my thoughts and theories give me the means to think of something I have neglected to think about { not so much another searchers idea, just things they say as the explain their ideas }{ example JDA’s many blazes}
            But do you really think the poem could have ~’absolutely ZERO, I mean ZERO chance Forrest’s poem can lead you to a 10-inch spot out of the entire Rockies.’

            That IMO [ politically correct response] is the biggest understatement you can make. The chest is hidden, and probably so well hidden that only the poem can lead someone to it… short of an archeological dig in the far future.

            Fenn’s 12 foot remark, and another Q&A about; IF you can find the blaze the distance from the blaze to the chest [ whatever that distance is ] will be obvious… was [both comments] about a “searcher” in the process of searching.

            It would seem pretty obvious to me that the searcher got there by the poem… to locate the blaze and have an obvious detection of where the chest is. [hidden]. Regardless of any distance from the blaze or directly down from it.

            At least that is MY take on; “no one will stumble on it…” including a searcher with no idea of how the poem unfold… “precisely” I doubt fenn just threw that word in for the heck of it.

            LOL… end of commentary.

          • Hi Seeker….You could be into something with the geo markets.

            Those could very well be used it someone where to apply the tarry point math to a group of three markets that form the outer triangle.

            Interesting look at the poem, and using another theory…combined….


          • gotta love when someone brings out the “rockies are moving so cannot be accurate” line. Very crudely, Rocky’s formed 55 million years ago. The highest point being 14,400 ft or so. So, very crudely, in one hundred years, the mountains will move around .312″.
            Obvious not using sediment levels and erosion, but you get the average. Stop using the mountains will move over time line. I would hate to have to think that the mountains within 100 years just may have a spurt and uplift an explosive 12″ or so. Lol, wow, I really don’t think we need to worry about that. Let’s go 100 years back. 1918, how much has the land moved where I couldn’t find the same spot now with coordinates? Lol, that same 12″ spot is more than likely at that same 12″ spot. Man, anything to fit a solve….

          • Zap says, “I suggest that your hypothesis is in error. There is absolutely ZERO, I mean ZERO chance Forrest’s poem can lead you to a 10-inch spot out of the entire Rockies.”

            I am privy to a private forum where a searcher has demonstrated precisely how the poem leads to a 10″ location and it is not just two dimensions but three dimensions requiring zero search. The location has not been searched yet, so only the methodology is known and all I can say is it is incredibly ingenious and it is definitely a game changer. So can confidently reject the null hypothesis of “Zero Chance”

          • Charlie,
            Off the top of my head… I’m a history channel watcher… a Mountain did just that, and raising a lake, or moving the lake short more than 20′ in YSP. Found when the son of the original survey was resurveying the land.
            You might be surprised just how much the movements of the land can be in a short life span… just look at Hebgen lake area… land sunk and/or lift 20′ in some areas. That was only in 1959. In another fifty yrs would your grand kids notice that lift after being eroded for that amount of time or would it simply look like an incline.

            Example; “In the 1970s, a resurvey of benchmarks discovered the unprecedented uplift of the Yellowstone Caldera of more than 28 inches (72 cm) over five decades…”

            The stories are easy searchers, have a peak.. I mean peek.

          • Hi charlie: like you, I worry not at all about the movement of the Rockies over time. That being said, there is a flaw in your reasoning:

            “Very crudely, Rocky’s formed 55 million years ago. The highest point being 14,400 ft or so. So, very crudely, in one hundred years, the mountains will move around .312″.”

            I understand how you came up with the figure, but the Rockies didn’t start at 0-foot altitude, nor was their rise linear over time. And as far as finding the treasure, altitude is the least of anyone’s concerns. Lateral movement of tectonic plates is what fouls coordinates over time, not mountain-building. Just compare any NAD27 coordinates with NAD83 (WGS 84). In the space of half a century, coordinates have changed by tens of METERS (mostly east-west in the U.S.) The 10-inch budget is blown annually.

          • Hi JDA: to some extent, you and I would appear to be on the same page:

            “If I can lead you to say, a 10′ circle, but let you know EXACTLY what to look for within that circle, I have done my job.”

            Seeker suggested that the POEM must take you to a 10-inch-precision location, which I said or implied was impossible, impractical and quite unnecessary. As in your example, if the poem has given you a “target image” (whatever that may be), then Forrest only needs to direct you to a location close enough to spot it. Ten inches would be overkill. Even 50 feet could be overkill.

          • Zap,
            WhatIF things are done the old ways?
            I don’t believe Geo-chasing is going to cut it, that was example of pin point idea.
            But, the Shadow many know, line of thinking. It’s not a stretch of the imagination fenn was exploring and wandering an place he enjoy to go to, and discover a Shadow design that caught his eye. Something that happens only during certain parts of the year maybe. The entire poem could be set up with way with way points [ lets say 3 ] as pointer to specific stops… something that needs planning for and something observed over on afternoon and would ensure the following of the poem to be difficult and it would impact the clues further [ much further – 3009 ] down the road.

            It’s funny how a lot of folks here don’t even consider fenn’s comment of down the road. No, it may not point anyone to a spot or location.. but he was thinking about it as he designed the poem. LOL, I mean, fenn’s talking about feeling like a “architect” and “creating/crafting the poem” and talks about the blueprint of the poem…is mentioned by many, but i never see in any solve posted how it is worked into a solution.

            So, the next tie you’re sitting on your porch or front steps… have a gander at a tree and watch it’s Shadow… see where it leads you.

          • Zap, I don’t agree with what you said here….There is absolutely ZERO, I mean ZERO chance Forrest’s poem can lead you to a 10-inch spot out of the entire Rockies. No searcher has the tools necessary to navigate to that level of precision.

            I think it’s simple to show a way that a searcher can navigate through the poem and while botg to a specific 10” square spot without using coordinates.

            Example: A searcher feels the first stanza refers to a specific mountain. They notice that mountaintop can be seen from their wwww. While they travel down canyon and put in below hoB the mountain top can’t be seen because of a few other mountain ridges eclipsing it from this new vantage point.

            They walk up their creek eventually (your creek) and this is where the mountaintop comes back into view.

            Remember, this mountaintop was possibly hinted at in the first stanza (hint of riches new and old among other things). It becomes in view for anyone walking that creek at a certain point because the topography of the land adjoining the creek finally allows that. Bingo…you stop in one precise point as anyone else would who’s looking for the mountaintop while slowly walking the creek that is perpendicular to the mountain peak.

            Btw, you originally posted isn’t unnecessary which means it’s necessary.

          • FD: your example is possible theoretically, but not really in practice. You’re talking about a Stonehenge-like alignment system. The trouble is the precision. Unless the closer obstruction that temporarily blocks your view of the more distant mountain is extremely close to you, a shift left or right on your trail of even a foot or two will significantly alter the point along your trail that the mountain comes back into view. Alternatively, if it is an overhang that is eclipsing the view of the distant mountain, a short person will spot the mountain (come out of eclipse) before a tall one.

            I like the idea of such a system, but for it to work in practice and provide the necessary amount of precision, the eclipsing object must be awfully close to the searcher, or the searcher has to be walking a tightrope.

            I just think it is sufficient for the poem to provide instructions that put the searcher close enough to either outright spot the chest, or recognize something conspicuous that marks its location. When Forrest wrote, “I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12′ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it,” that tells me that getting you within 12 feet is good enough. That’s what I’ve been harping about — that 10″ is overkill.

            Unless you think it’s buried with no above-ground marker. (I don’t.)

          • Zap, i’d say pretty much go with opposite of the points you brought up about my example, lol.

            The closer alignment position is about an arms length away from you, it’s the contours of the creekwall…so it’s not an overhang that can corrupt by a view from a shorter person.

            Also, the creek is one human body wide. No alignment problems with that either. I guess I’m back into my example being possible in practice.

            You asked if I think the tc is buried without a marker? I guess you mean a marker in the immediate vicinity. The example I gave above has a marker but from a far distance away (the specific mountain which is like maybe 1 mile away). You quoted…I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12′ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it”.

            I never trusted myself to lock into one position on this quote. F never mentions getting close to what in his last senctence. Could be something about the mysterious “it”s in the poem that many have picked up on. But I do think it’s buried. F has shown plenty of know how in things buried.

          • Hi FD: okay, sounds like you’re talking about a very specific example. Basically a very narrow slot-canyon (not unlike the one described by Forrest in TTOTC when he and Donnie are getting squeezed tighter and tighter by the walls to the point that only water can get through.)

            As for burial, I think you’ll have a hard time squaring that with this quote: “The chest is exposed to rain and snow, and could be scorched in a forest fire.”

          • Zap,
            FD’s example doesn’t need to be judged or misjudge because of a searcher moving,… it almost forces the searcher to do just that, to be in an exact spot…
            Using a distance mountain peak as a front sight [ not unlike the barrel of a rifle ] if a searcher end up near the blaze[spot] and can see that mountain peak through a point [rock formation or a crack or something] shaped like a rear sight of a rifle, Then, match the mountain peak into the ‘V-shape’ [ just go with it, it could be U shape]… a searcher would have to move slightly right, left, forward or backwards to be in the correct position. filling the sights

            This places a searcher standing on a very small spot [ how small? depends on the size of the rear sight to the mountain peak being used. But in theory it can be a very small spot… less than a couple of feet.

            There are many ways, natural features can be thought of and used for a very precise spot…. it’s finding that sights is the tricky part. We don’t know what this location has or looks like… but we are told to observe.

            Fenn tells us, if we can’t find the chest to start with the first clue again… Maybe we don’t need the first clue to figure out hoB or worry about it ‘there’… but later we might need the first clue in the example above.
            Thinking along the lines, turn around to see where you came from, and not just where you’re going. Or knowing the place for the first time? Or you won’t know if you have the first clue correct until you find the chest?

            Ya’ll like saying fenn is sending out hints like candy… do these ATF comments fit this theoretical possibility? Does it even answer why we need to nail down the first clue or stay home.? .. without it, we would not have a front sight, and not know where to be at, right?

            A hypothetical, yes, but it also can explain why movement of the land might impact ‘finding’ the ‘chest’ harder in a 1000 yrs. Will that impact today’s solvers? More than likely, No… but it does make ya ‘think’ of ‘why’ or ‘how’ it could later, and help think of what could be the ending part we might need to observe.

            Although I have to admit… I can’t see why, if we knew hoB we’d go right to the chest, comment, for this scenario. lol, that’s why I attempt to use the ATF comments as a check and balance and not as hints or clues.

            Just food for thought.

          • Seeker: I will concede that your “Staff of Ra” system could do the trick. But is it likely that Forrest chose his special spot specifically because of this precision alignment? (Who knows, maybe so — after all, he did cover up Philadelphia with his thumb.)

          • It’s not that he chose the spot for that… it might be, that is the way he could make it work and be difficult to find.

          • Really good write up, Seeker!! I’ll have to screen shot that as your rifle sights description is excellent along with maybe needing something from the beginning of the poem to get the ending right.

            I think a way to explain the hoB quandary is that the only way a searcher would know the correct hoB is because they would have to have had the correct wwwh and any other clues in between. So if they knew the correct hoB than they can continue and not worry about the previous clues.

          • Seeker, love the History channel. Anyway, you may have noticed I used words like “Very crudely”, Lol, my plausible deniability.
            I know the mountains at this time move a lot more. The Himalayas over the next 100 years will uplift somewhere around 10′, I’m sure the Rockies will move even more than that, It’s just I don’t think f really took it into account too much. If any of us really thought this chase could last 100 years, we would quit. F may have been thinking down the road, but realistically, he knows.
            To say something along the lines of: if I was standing on a spot in 1918, I couldn’t find that same spot using coordinates in 2018, seemed to me to be ridiculous. Even more so by saying the land will move. It gives the impression to noobs that coordinates may not play a role, or numbers, and that just is not so. Maybe that is why f has stated it will be harder to find in the year 3009 or so.
            If you think about it, a lot has changed in 100 years. I think it would be more of an advantage if searchers actually thought about the chase in a “times” point of view.
            And Zap, I don’t want this to sound like I’m once again attacking your theory. That is also not the case. Like stated above, I was using a very crude sense of reasoning. The point was to show that some angles of solving this puzzle should not be overlooked because of something that really will not come into play for us. I really do not think the Rockies will move only half an inch in 100 years. I just wouldn’t want others to think that with just coordinates, they couldn’t find a certain spot. (how nice of me).
            Really though, if someone just has coordinates from the poem, I would say they will not find the chest. Just no way, as far as I can see. There are feet references also. And, at least for me, the seconds do extend two places right of decimal point. That could get someone within a foot. The thing is, for me, from the blaze, we start talking “feet”. Moving this distance puts you at coordinates the poem has given. Yes, coordinates alone would still have you in an 80′ circle or so, (I calculated long ago, forgot what it actually was), It’s just at that point, the distances travelled are in feet from a precise location. And, that precise location, (the blaze), is not moving.
            If in 100 years, you asked me to find the exact spot of the blaze, I could do it,(depending on if it was the correct blaze). If you asked to find the chest, I would be able to do it, (depending of course), no matter the movement of the Rockies. Unless Yellowstone BLEW, that’s totally different.

          • Hi charlie.

            There are many unsolved mysteries existing. Many have been unsolved for decades and centuries.

            The Money Pit on Oa Island is a perfect example.

            Someone mentioned “On the trail to the Golden Owl” which has lasted over 30 years.

            The Dahlia Murder – unsolved

            Did Hitler commit suicide? Not accordiing to the research uncovered by investigators

            Did the Templars make it to America prior to the Norsemen?
            – evidence is building that they did.

            A mystery will stay a mystery until important clue is realized……”Begin it WWWH”.

            That is the starting point. That is where I began. That is where the finder of the trove is supposed to start – based upon Mr Fenn’s direction.

            Good luck.

          • Hi charlie: I didn’t feel you were attacking my ideas, but would be fine if you wanted to. I’m thick-skinned. 😉

            I have only one point of clarity to point out in your latest post:

            “And, at least for me, the seconds do extend two places right of decimal point. That could get someone within a foot.”

            In engineering, this is what we call “empty precision.” GPS is wonderful (especially since Selective Availability was disabled over a decade ago), but the general public cannot use GPS to navigate down to foot- or sub-foot precision. 10 feet is about the best you can count on. So even if your GPS unit reports the seconds to the hundredths place, it’s really meaningless data. 0.01″ is about 1 foot, and for GPS I wouldn’t trust anything past the tenths place.

          • yea Zap, I remember something on that line of thinking. In fact, early on it made me kind of leery to think about coordinates. Maybe I should explain a little better. For me:
            Breaking down the poem yielded obvious letter values. Those values, going through the poem again and again yielded obvious coordinates. Down to 100ths. One real quick way to maybe see this would be the word “secret”. Sec abbreviation, then the letter values after, along with the 4th line, gives seconds.
            Of course, coordinates like that will not pin point a spot. I look at them more as support info, but also, with those coordinates, I can back track,( only one way in), and find a starting place. The 8th clue is basically the spot of the coordinates. Now, my blaze is my 4th clue, it’s very precise, I’ve put pics up, you may have seen. Anyway, my 5th clue is to pick something up there. My 6th clue is a direction, Southwest. (So why is it that I must go= Sowyst). My 7th clue is distance in feet. So, from the blaze, head Southwest a certain amount of feet. Just so happens you arrive at the coordinates. (this is where the thing you took at the blaze is stood up).These coordinates have their support info, and is also a place I believe a bell is buried. My 9th clue goes with the key and it is a distance in feet.
            So, as you can see, the coordinates are not the “tell-all” of exact positioning. They couldn’t be, but, they do support and have their own support. A lot of this proves that proves this and that which proves this kind of thing. The letter values have a ton of support and I would bet they are solid. It’s with so many ways to interpret the poem, break it down, it takes a long time with trial and error to finally find the true path. Only one way truly fits. That’s my extent on the coordinates. I don’t live or die by them, it’s just what was presented. Same with the letter values. My whole solve is breaking down each line by following that lines instructions. Each line can be broken down this way. It’s one reason you can’t mess with the poem, to move or change one letter may result in an instruction change. So, if you ask me, yes to numbers, yes to coordinates, and yes, the correct solve will get you to within 12″. Now, and 100 years from now.
            I’m not so aloof to think this solve is totally correct, but it is pretty good. I know I could not come up with the stuff I’ve found. I could very easily say that the searcher that does find the chest will be the one who has listened to others ideas, and angles of how to solve this thing, and has put it all together with their own ideas. No chance that one person solves this on their own. Dal may be wrong in his solve, (just playin Dal), but I for one am very appreciative of his sight. With all the brain power floating around, it’s lead to what I see as a pretty good solve. A lot of trial and error. After 7 years, I could only hope I have at least some part of it right. If I was to bet, it would be the letter values.

          • Interesting solve Charlie, I like it. As good as most others. Without divulging too much does the distance traveled to the TC reduce dramatically toward the end of the clues? Meaning after say the 2nd clue the geographic area remaining to search is a small area.

          • FlyFishin, I basically have the starting point, park car, head into canyon down. This is the start of the walk. The 3rd clue is around a mile. The 4th clue, the blaze, is around 3 miles after that. The 5th clue is there at the blaze, 6th clue is a direction, 7th clue is a distance in feet, slightly over 100′. This arrives you at clue 8, which is, think, Indiana Jones in the map room, where you stand up “Y”. The 9th clue is a time and distance, it goes with the key which is a date. Basically a distance of a couple hundred feet, into the woods.
            So, I have clues 4-9 roughly in tight focus. A few hundred feet.

          • Interesting Charlie, yes I was just trying to compare it to FF remarks ( I think I have this right) about people being within 200-500ft after traveling two clues, which keeps the remaining trek close after the two clues.
            Your scenario seems within that realm.

          • Fly Fishin;

            I have read the quotes where Forrest says that people have been within 200′ and within 500′

            I have read the quotes where Forrest has said that people have solved the first two clues, and then walked past the other seven.

            Nowhere have I ever seen the two connected. Can you provide me with a quote that links these two disparate quotations, or provide me with your logic that you use to connect these two statements. JDA

          • Hi JDA,

            That’s why I said I think. You have a better grip on it than me. I’ll have to review that. But my sense is there is a lot happening in a short area with many of the remaining clues. You made a good clarification because I’m not certain how many clues were actually traveled when the searchers were within 2-500 ft. But, that’s why I said, I think, because that’s the sense I have on it.

          • Fly Fishin

            This string is getting too long and narrow. I am going to respond to your post at the bottom of this thread OK? JDA

        • Good one, y’all . . . I mean “James”. In case
          you were wondering, I “get it”.

          Oh! I almost forgot to add some info about
          the hunt itself. “Hear” goes.

          It has been suggested that “hear me all” in
          the poem means that a searcher should
          carefully listen for something to be heard
          while BOTG (a waterfall, perhaps, or
          some swiftly-moving water in a creek).

          I don’t think this is what FF meant. Read
          the poem a few more dozen times.

          All IMO.

          • Focus, that line for me was a turning point into how to read the poem.
            I felt like he was saying to listen to the words in the poem, (looking for instructions). Words like: on, in, with, can, keep, is, etc….All could be instructions. He then takes it a level deeper ( and listen GOOD), or not only the words, but the letters. B, C, R, etc… all could be seen as instruction letters.
            When I break down that line I get: Some all and l is ten go od. Ends up A=7, L=1, but that line at face value seems to hint towards how to read the poem. Instruction words and letters.
            I’m with you on not thinking that a searcher would not be listening while boots on the ground. That just seems ridiculous. I believe f is telling us what to do in regards to his poem. Not only to listen to his words, but even the letters.

      • Seeker,
        Good points. However I was not aware that Fenn said something like “if you know what hoB is why would you be concerned about wwwh?” That would totally change my mindset, because I think I have a plausible candidate for hoB. However Fenn’s statement would also imply that you can skip the next two poem lines – “and take it in the canyon down” and “Not too far but too far to walk”. Correct?

        Could you direct me to where Fenn made this statement?

        • Here you go, McKendree:

          From Mysterious Writings Q&A (7/2/2014): “Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt? ~Ben Raylor”

          Forrest’s reply: “Thanks for the question Ben. If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck.f”

          • I have been a searcher for 7 years or so and my search buddy I made many trips with and just 41 years old passed away today I feel lost already without his wit and no quit attitude his name is Ryan Benton and will be truly missed thought I would let the hod searchers know even if you never met him or me he was one in a million would drop everything to help someone out and is greatly missed

          • My condolences to you OC.

            Just think of the positives…he is enjoying the likes of Jimi Hendrix and Janis Joplin!

            Be safe out searching!

          • Hello Old Choctaw. Thank you for sharing this with us. Ryan sounded like a great person. Thoughts and prayers are with everyone he has touched.

          • Old Choctaw;

            I am sorry for your loss. My thoughts and prayers go out to you, your family, and certainly his – JDA

          • Thoughts are with you O.C. Just 41, He sounds like a true searcher. Find the chest, I’m sure his spirit is with you. Stay safe…

          • Thanks zaphod. Actually I did read this Mysterious Writings conversation quite a while ago. Guess it just slipped my mind. Of course Fenn’s reply makes logical sense if you are following the clues in consecutive order as they appear in the poem and each one is getting you closer to the treasure. If you can bypass several clues, so much the better. Just not sure what Fenn thinks about the odds of doing this.

          • Hi McKendree — I can answer your last question for you:

            “If you can bypass several clues, so much the better. Just not sure what Fenn thinks about the odds of doing this.”

            Words from Fenn that address the idea of trying to start in the middle and skip clues:

            “If you don’t know where the first clue is, you might as well stay home because you’re not … you’re not going to find the treasure chest. You can’t go out looking for the blaze and expect to find the treasure chest. There’s ten billion blazes out there. So you have to start with the first clue and let it take you to the blaze.”

            I think Forrest is pretty adamant that without solving WWWH, you are dead in the water.

    • The waters don’t halt, they “halt and take”. I am not sure how you interpret that stanza as telling the searcher to go down a canyon, it doesn’t say that at all, it is telling you what the waters do. English, when the grammar is clearly correct, is not up for interpretation.

  21. @Batty – Spunk, huh? That’s what FF told me in 2013 I had because I relentlessly spent 11 days alone in the wilderness of some uncivilized mntns in CO. That may be one of the most silly & dangerously stupid things I’ve ever done. I simply refused to believe my spot was incorrect. After all that time my solve is still the same location … but my spunk has deteriorated considerably. Difficult to stay revved up without making any headway.

    Hey, Batty … here’s what fries my biscuit. FF says his treasure location has NEVER changed. So he planned to leave his corpse there after he committed suicide. Right? Okay then. But FF also says that people continue to arrive there. How is that possible? How far away from a decaying cadaver does the smell travel?

    If bears can smell food several miles away … wouldn’t FF’s body be a sitting duck for all carnivorous predators? Maybe being on an island in the middle of a vast body of H2O could keep large predators at bay, but I doubt that very much. What say you, Batty?

    • Becky,

      I can tell you for certain that a decaying body all by its self out in the open air usually can’t be smelled until your about 30 feet away. If the nearest people have been no closer than 200 feet, I would say can’t be smelled by another persons. A confined area such as a room the smell is sickening as the decay is much slower.

      Just say’n

    • His corpse would be carried away and ripped to shreds by animals within 1 or 2 days if it was out in the open. His corpse would last a very long time if it was submerged in a bog or even a fen which are highly acidic. But, since he said the chest is not in water, that is ruled out too.

      Do you know what a stalagmite is? They exist outside of caves too in some places, and if he were to lower himself into one of those, he would last a long time. Same with a crevace behind some rocks in a wall. Natives buried the dead like this, they also buried them standing up sometimes inside rock formations. This is probably what he was considering IMO.

    • BTW, that might be why he said “look quickly down” when at the blaze. Quickly down might mean look down into something below the blaze.

  22. One thing that has been on my mind for years is this.

    If you were to ask anyone with even just a small amount of USA Geography knowledge to come up with the answer to “canyon down”, what do you think they would say?

    I think: The Grand Canyon – It is without a doubt the most famous canyon in the USA if not the world.

    Second, if “IT” is something that begins and goes into that canyon, what can IT be?

    I think they would say: The Colorado River

    So there are two obvious choices here if you back track:

    1) The Colorado river headwaters (which are at 10,200 feet).
    2) The Green river headwaters (which are also at 10,200 feet).

    IF the poem is so simple and IF we are to show it to a kid, to me it doesn’t get any simpler than “The Grand Canyon” and the point that contains water that begins the Colorado River upstream. So it seems highly likely that this would be the easiest WWWH to discover. It could also be the Green River, since that is the main tributory to the Colorado, but I am going to assume that IT does not change names, so the only IT that begins and ends up in that canyon is “The Colorado”.

    I said this a million times, and here goes 1,000,001:

    People need to really read stanza 2 and understand it properly. The word AND is a conjunction that does NOT have a comma before it. The reason why it has no comma is because the only way a comma could properly be used is if both sides of the sentence (left and right of AND) would need to be independant clauses. In this case, they are not.

    Left = “Begin it where warm waters halt” = Independent clause
    Right = “take it in the canyon down” = Dependent clause

    This means the verbs on the left and right of AND, which are “halt” and “take” both apply to the subject of the sentence. The subject exists on the left side, “waters”. So, the sentence is telling us that the “waters” are what “halt and take” it in the canyon down. Nowhere does this sentence tell anyone to go down to the canyon (which is not far, but too far to walk, meaning it is a long distance and you need a vehicle of sorts).

    So why rule out “The Grand Canyon” as being the canyon down since we are NOT supposed to go there in the first place, and second if you keep it simple that is the most well known canyon in existence?

    If we don’t properly read the poem all hope is lost in solving it. Now lets face it, almost all canyons have (or had) a river. All rivers go through canyons all over the Rockies. We need “the canyon”.

    I think some incorrectly think that “IT” in stanza two refers to the chase. I believe IT is something that begins and takes waters down to the canyon. So if we assume The Grand Canyon, this narrows down our choice of what IT is, and that would place us in Colorado because there is no other IT that ends up in the Grand Canyon.

    To me stanza two means we are looking for something that begins (IT) where warm waters halt and takes the warm waters into the canyon down. I believe both IT’s in that sentence refer to the same thing, “Begin it and take it”.

    I also belive WWWH is a cold place, un-comfortable! Since warm = comfortable, and halted comfortable is a negative, this means uncomfortable. Rivers in the Rockies are all formed by cold water, some glacier fed (such as the Green). All the small creeks/streams bleeding off the mountain tops have uncomfortable water (not warm), those creeks and streams halt/cease to exist and BEGIN a river. A River, like all rivers goes down into a canyon. Our task is to find the unique one, and if its simple it doesn’t get any more simple than this.

    The only part of stanza two that might tell US to move is “Put in below the home of brown”. I say might because that line might be telling us that whatever IT is (Begin IT) is put in below the home of Brown.

  23. @CharlieM – That makes sense. So there could be dead bodies everywhere & we’d never know. How cool is that?

    But one of my animals is a Beagle. I can wrap a piece of food in foil, place it in a plastic bag, encase that in a sealed container, hide it in the gun safe at the back of my upstairs closet in a room far away from her … & she still worries me to death about it. After several days if I allow her to search, she’ll go directly to it. My vet says, “Yep! That’s a Beagle for ya!”

    My driveway is almost 200 ft long … so if someone in my neighborhood dies, I’ll test out your theory by having them placed at the top of it for a day or two. But since my house is down from there, it might NOT be a fair challenge. I should probably be higher than the rotting guy … because smell rises, I think. I’ll have to give this some more thought, CharlieM. Thank you much.

    • Becky,

      Your talking about a dog, we are talking about people. I can speak from experience.
      Just say’n

    • Hi Becky, I like the point you make about “And” between HoB and take it in the canyon down. I’ve found that it makes the most sense to think about it this way. The “it” is the word in poem that helps us interpret this more IMO.

      We also have a beagle. They have great sniffers!

  24. MISS Becky, let’s don’t go down that
    rabbit hole any more…
    Change your looking glass to view a warmer spectrum.
    Endeavor to persevere, but care
    in the wilds.
    poco y poco

  25. Would you like to fly Forrest’s F100 Super Sabre on a bombing mission…?

    Some might…some might not…
    Captain Bob Ward was an F100 pilot in 1970 and flew missions for a year in Vietnam.
    He put together some of his actual gun camera film with simulator animation to show you what it was like flying sorties in a state-of-the-art combat aircraft during the Vietnam War.
    The radio chatter is actual ground and air communication recorded in Bob’s cockpit.

    Okay…it’s a bit high schoolish in the beginning…but it gets better..
    Hang on!

    • My heart breaks for all the pilots, especially the pilots, the people and animals on the ground, and the scorched earth left by senseless war. Still happening to this day all around our world. May peace and freedom ring in 2018.

      My God, I covered up Philadelphia with my thumb comes to mind.

  26. Guy’s,

    Can someone please tell me the following;

    If Forrest hid the T.C in the summer, when does your summer time start?

    I would assume that your summer time starts at a different time to ours.

    Our summer time starts about middle of June in the U.K

    Ronnie the Scot

  27. In six years or so, I’ve spent more time thinking about, and looking for possible hiding places than studying the poem. In that time, I’ve only come up with three possible places. And I could only fit Mr. Fenns, 200 foot and 500 foot, comment to one of those places, and I don’t have any idea how that place could fit the poem. All in all, I do feel that I have accomplished something.

    • James;

      We all have our own way of solving it, and I wish you the very best of luck. From what you say, it appears to me that you are trying to solve the mystery from the back-end, to the front of the book. By not spending time with the poem, how do you even know who the cast of characters are? Much less, what their motives might have been for killing Mr. Badapples?

      The answers are in the POEM. I know, everyone has told you this, including Forrest, so I doubt that you will listen to this old guy.

      I hope that you have a LOT of fun on your vacations in the Rockies. JMO – JDA

  28. A quick question to those who have been in the chase for a while. Those searchers who have been within 500’/200′ from the chest and ff comments about it.

    Did that happen more frequently before the end of 2013?
    Or more have gotten close after the beginning of 2014?

    • In the past, when Mr. Fenn made a comment, that some searchers could relate to, it was months after the event took place. An example might be Dal’s story about meeting the dog walker and friend, at Ojo Caliente, nm. Some months later, Mr. Fenn did a scrape book,( I think it was a scrape book) about the weight of twenty lbs. bags of dog food, to illustrate, what twenty lbs. of weight felt like to carry.

  29. Yessir—I get the part about the poem being the guide and instructions. But, my theory is based on ‘hints’ that were found in the book. With those hints, I was able to narrow my search field to establish a theoretical and what seems to me – without BotG –
    a reasonable and plausible WWWH, HoB, etc…btw I, too am well beyond 40yrs. but the moniker is homage to my favorite singer, Mr. Jimmy Buffett…

  30. If any of you guy’s on the chase are fortunate enough to find the T.C would you share some of your wealth with your friend/friends.

    Here is a little poem to think about just in case you’re the one.

    I once had money and a friend in whom I laid great store, I lent my money too my friend and saw my friend no more.

    If I had money and a friend as I had once before, I’d keep my money and my friend and loose my friend no more.

    You have been warned

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Hey Ronnie.

      I plan on doing the sharing. I’ve already have a tentative on a couple people who will help with my plans, if I ever get to unfold them.

      Lots of people will be wearing smiles.


      Good luck to us!

      • Me too Tim… I know several people I’d help out if I was fortunate enough to find indulgence…. they too would be wearing smiles……

        Have a great day Tim….. until next time…. see ya

  31. How do you know if your interpretation of the poem is correct or just Confirmation bias? Many of us think we are on the right track but what if our minds are just confirming our own opinions? Psychologist Peter Wason conducted series of experiments in the 1960s to demonstrate that people are biased towards confirming their existing beliefs:

    • Thank you randawg I enjoyed reading that post and I believe you are on to something. I believe for one to get to the end one will have to correctly eliminate many wrong paths thereby leaving only the correct path which can’t be eliminated. Perhaps this is the only way to confidently proceed all the way to the end.

      • No prob Dm. I like when he says “Try as hard as you can to disprove your theories, only then can you get at the truth”.

        • Randawg,

          Funny that you should ask, “How do you know if your interpretation of the poem is correct or just Confirmation bias?”

          I tried an exercise last night and even though there are only (9) clues, I totaled up those and some hints that came to mind and stopped at 25 confirmed reasons why this should be a correct solve. IMO, just have to make certain that I do not “stretch a tangent” next time.

          You mention, “disprove you theories,” and to be honest, if one is relying on “theories” they might as well regroup..

          Curious to know if anyone else has counted 9 clues + ____ hints = ____ reasons why their solve -has- to be correct? Doubt that I am the first to try that.

          • Interesting theory LMN.
            Could you elaborate on how counting clues and hints helped to confirm your solve?

          • I did basically the same thing last year. I believe it was 27 good indicators. I was absolutely convinced, and had close friends absolutely convinced. My solve was straightforward and made perfect sense. They looked at other solves posted on the internet and like me considered them reaching and not convincing.
            That was my #5 absolutely correct solve, and I plan to go this year to test absolutely correct solve #6.

            Confirmation bias is a sneaky beast!

            I am going on 5 years now and see the same patterns in most searchers, including myself. But I can’t wait to go again.

            By the way, I don’t think the idea of “9 clues” is helpful, and is probably a hindrance for many. I prefer to consider all of the poem important. I don’t really know how to define a clue or a hint, and don’t want an improper definition, or selection to leave me short of information.

          • Hi Meadowlark.

            You wrote:

            “I don’t really know how to define a clue or a hint, and don’t want an improper definition, or selection to leave me short of information.”

            Sounds to me that you aren’t sure you are accurate, especially if you begin “your quest” with not even being sure on the clues you use for your general solve.

            Are all your “clue locations” confirmed with factual data that connects them to Mr. Fenn?

            if you cannot, then you probably missed something and your clues will lead you not to the trove.

            How sure are you with the data you have uncovered? Are you able to verify the data to be connected to FF?

            Not to give me any of your secrets, have you triple checked your research.

            I would before I venture to a place that won’t produce my results.

            Good luck and be safe out there.

          • So Meadowlark, by ‘indicators’ you mean things that are related to the poem and Fenns stories?
            Like if your area was near ‘Flutterby creek’ or ‘Olga street’, or ‘Tarry’s mill’?
            (Made up examples by the way).

          • Tim, I primarily use the poem; what if FF had said there are clues in the poem that if followed precisely will lead you to the treasure, without the 9 ?
            So is a clue a word, a phrase, a stanza, a dual meaning of a word? Are you sure you have exactly 9 clues identified as FF intends? Is the rest of the poem irrelevant?

            Aside from the poem I use some FF quotes, and a “good” map.

            I am trying to avoid hints from the book or the scapbooks since there are 1000 rabbit holes/hint there.
            Primarily I use those resources for my reading enjoyment, and secondarily to try and better understand who FF is.

          • Hi Meadowlark.

            You wrote:

            “So is a clue a word, a phrase, a stanza, a dual meaning of a word? Are you sure you have exactly 9 clues identified as FF intends? Is the rest of the poem irrelevant?”

            IMO – remember I haven’t acquired the trove……so these are just my notions…..others may agree to them, thers may not. I also am the one who promotes remote viewing, if that is helpful.

            – clues will lead you to the chest, hints will lead you to clues.
            – one word or many words can form a clue. Yes, even a whole sentence.
            – are my nine clues the cluess FF has dreamed up? I don’t know. They seem to fit in all mannerisms that I talk about. Who knows. Forrest did say the finder won’t know until he/she locates the chest.

            I’m confident I have a good general solve. Is it right? I’ll know eventually if it busts open through logical questions and/or when I find the trove..

            Did that help?

          • Randawg, those would be examples of a type of “indicator”. Last year I had my spot picked prior to the Scrapbook about saving mementos, FF talked about saving a Magnolia seed pod from their wedding church and listed an elevation that was the difference between Santa Fe and Temple. My chosen hiding spot was at that exact elevation. So that was definitely an indicator.

    • It is called “delusional behavior” Randawg. There are many forms of it…brought to the surface by many different emotional settings. Recognizing it is not always easy….

    • Thanks Randawg, only collecting ‘evidence’ we like – for more logic discussions (warning: philosophies studies ahead), look up ‘proving a negative’, ‘burden of proof’ and my favorite:

      Argument from ignorance (from Latin: argumentum ad ignorantiam), also known as appeal to ignorance (in which ignorance represents “a lack of contrary evidence”), is a fallacy in informal logic. It asserts that a proposition is true because it has not yet been proven false or a proposition is false because it has not yet been proven true. This represents a type of false dichotomy in that it excludes a third option, which is that there may have been an insufficient investigation, and therefore there is insufficient information to prove the proposition be either true or false. Nor does it allow the admission that the choices may in fact not be two (true or false), but may be as many as four,
      3.unknown between true or false
      4.being unknowable (among the first three).[1]

      In debates, appeals to ignorance are sometimes used in an attempt to shift the burden of proof.

      I think FF shifted the burden of proof to the finder!

      Many searchers (at least in how they discuss things, so yes, grain of salt) seem to lack the ability to see the WHATIFs…the first question IMO should always be ‘what if I’m wrong’ on any of this…as no one (at least with any ‘hard’ proof) can claim they have ‘factual’ evidence of their hypothesis being correct. We can also argue that we do not have evidence they are wrong yet either, but that is shifting the burden of proof…it is on the claimant! (I didn’t claim you were wrong, you claimed you were right!)

      It hurts my head when I see so many talk about how they ‘figured it out’…of course they don’t have the chest, and are working on it…but can’t reveal details, explain further, present their methodology with an allegory/metaphor, etc. I appreciate that folks like to talk, especially the ‘out of the box’ types, but I think at some point all need to step back and consider that just because you haven’t ‘broken’ or ‘proven’ your solve wrong, does not mean it is right, it may simply mean you have not asked the right questions/tests yet…given the lack of real PROOF.

      That said, I am by no means telling people to stop talking or they are wrong, simply that I really want them to talk about their ‘facts’, tests, questions, methodologies, mindsets, etc. Many have ‘checklists’ that use ATFs to ‘test’ their solves…its a good first step, but does not constitute ‘proof’, what about this hypothesis: you don’t have the box because you’re wrong! I know it is negative/cynical/Debbie downer, but still…did you ask the question? Someone saying…’well, I have these 25 things that ‘prove’ I’m right’ does not mean you’re right, it MAY mean you have not asked the right question that proves you wrong.

      Before people jump all over me, I love reading all the crazy stuff here at HOD, much of it has triggered new ideas and new ways to look at things, what I would like to see is these folks who are so confident, begin to apply what they know/learned/experienced in new ways. The psychology of obsession is interesting in that the deeper you dig that rabbit hole, the less you see…only a small point of light above you…I think the dedicated searchers here indeed have a leg up on most of us, but only so far as their ability to stay flexible and move on…part of why I’ve admired Dal from the first few stories I read…he is proof that you can move on from a solve!

      I have not yet done a BOTG yet, I did read all the books, I have a couple incomplete solves that have not provided confidence and I think we all have years of entertainment ahead of us still.

      • Tbug;

        If this were a college course, you would get an “A+” for knowing what a “correct” solve should look like, and what questions a “student” should ask before he/she hands in his/her paper prior to the final exam. But this isn’t a college course. This is a real “Puzzle” (riddle) solving contest for the grand prize of over 1 million dollars… and a bit of honor for knowing “I did it”!

        Forrest has said that the guy in the pick-up truck with umpteen kids has as good a chance as a professor – yes I know, he never actually said that, but he has hinted as much.

        If I thought only a college professor, who had all of the Correct Hypotheses’ could win this prize, I would have quit long ago. Like Forrest, I graduated high school only because of the benevolence of my teachers. Sure, I have picked up a college course or two, but only the ones I knew I could pass. (Logic and analyses courses were not among the ones I took.) And yet, I feel I have as good a chance as the next guy or gal.

        Time will tell who wins the prize – The college professor, or the guy with the pick-up truck. P.S. – not a lot of kids, but I do have an OLD pick-up 🙂 JDA

        • I would put money on the guy with the pickup. I’ve seen a lot of professors that didn’t have a lick of common sense, nor real logic outside of the field they are in. I’m not saying all, its just the ones in know.

          • Hi CharlieM: I’ll put money on the Renaissance Man (or Woman). Jack or Jill of all trades, and not necessarily master of any. That’s the soul that’s going to solve it.

          • I’ll double down on Zap’s bet. Someone who has worn a lot of hats in their life, now who do we know who fits that description?

          • Hi JW: I think it’s safe to say that Dal has worn his share of hats! And so has Diggin Gypsy. 🙂

        • Seeker,

          You always have something to say about anything. I think you just want the attention and a little narcissistic.

          So why go after someone that you think you can intimidate, stop it’s not necessary and immature. lol !! That’s all I’m asking

          End of Comment

          • Charlie,
            Boy did you take that the wrong way… Who the heck went after anyone???

            I just thought is was funny… kinda like; you can please some of the people some of the time, but you can’t please all the people all of the time.
            Cool the afterburners

            Note to self; Send flowers to CharlieM. Are pansies to your likening? I’d hate to send roses, Cuz ya might get pricked about it.

        • Thanks for the friendly discourse (sincerely), JDA, I truly respect you as a dedicated searcher, I think you’re miles beyond where I’m at (and most others are as well). JDA and a few others are pretty good at providing the additional thoughts/context about their ideas so we can discuss, and that is difficult without giving away the store, so I commend those that do/try. I agree that any specific ‘book learnin’ may not win the day over ‘experience’, and the redneck with 12 kids in the back of his pickup (while stupid and illegal) has just as much chance as all of us, keep on keepin on.

          This thread was about confirmation bias and it triggered some thoughts about logic (I am a novice in the philosophy realm at best, by no means a ‘professor’), everything I posted was a quick google search and copy/paste. I was trying to suggest some more ‘thinking’, was all, not trying to put anyone down. I think the Dal, Cynthia, Vox, Zaph, you and some others indeed have a leg up due to time involved and sheer will/commitment to the puzzle. I wish I could shove you all in a room for a year and somehow force you to work together! cest la vie, its just the way it is. Continue the long winter thoughts.

    • Ran,
      Dealing with “confirmation bias” is what moves a searcher out of the “foolish” category provided being a “serious” searcher is truly your goal (IMO). Otherwise you can just use the poem as a touchstone for adventure and there is nothing wrong with that and you still have a real chance of finding the treasure albeit with reduced probability.

      Many people are unaware of confirmation bias
      (as well as a host of other biases that impact quality choices in our lives – Charlie Munger has identified 25 key human biases which is worthy reading if anyone is inclined…); and an interpretive poem for a hidden treasure is the ideal recipe for this condition, especially when the author says, analyze and go in confidence…

      Best ways I know of to combat this affliction is to give your poem’s interpretation to a trusted friend who knows nothing and has no investment in your solution. It also helps if they are a critical SOB.

      The other option is to just assume that your solution is wrong and start over a few times. Or find another spot on the map anywhere in the Rocky Mountains that seems to fit the clues and see if you can make a compelling solve for that location. This usually provides insight into unseen biases.

      Also compile a list of everything you know Forrest has said about the search and make sure that your solve doesn’t contradict a single thing, if it does then you need to weigh your reasons with heavy, heavy scrutiny…

      For example a Forrest quote that may have some wiggle room is, the treasure isn’t in very close proximity to a human trail. IF your solve has the treasure within say 500′ that doesn’t necessarily invalidate your solve as long as you have a very sound reason as to what would qualify as “in very close proximity.”


      • It could be called ‘confirmation bias’ or it could be called ‘confidence’. Both are derivatives of some form of formula. The complete one is yet to be known. IMO . I sure am not sure. 🙂

        • Confirmation bias:

          the tendency to interpret new evidence as confirmation of one’s existing beliefs or theories.


          This can be removed through the use of facts – as long as the facts pertain DIRECTLY to the theory, in relativeness, action, date, how well asssociated, and other variables.

          Confirmation bias is a trait, humans create themselves, to “pat themselves” on the back for thinking they have a sure thing. But is it really?

          The idea of giving your solve to another trusting person, and have them rip it apart for every minute detail….then you can also remove any confirmation bias.

          If they cannot…then you have something solid to move forward with.

          Good luck to all.

          • Can ypu connect it to FF.

            If you cannot, then FF probably didn’t think of it….thus it would be an incorrect association.


          • Ran,

            I believe Tim would say that there is no way to prove your theory is correct prior to actually retrieving the Treasure chest and Forrest has said pretty much this previously;

            “Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”


          • However Ran,

            It does seem that Forrest has employed a method which when understood provides a precise path or place of the treasures hiding spot to within say 15 feet.

            Also, according to Forrest this method has elements which are logical and when understood provides a straightforward, uncomplicated assurance.

            It requires “deliberate” actions which also implies clearly understood instructions.

            Lastly, it seems to me if your solve is the correct solve the following should also be true:

            1) TToTC should CLEARLY corroborate your interpretation for WWWH.
            2) TToTC should have what seem to be at least 2 major HINTs which corroborate your interpretation of the poems clues.
            3) You should be able to identify at least a few things in TToTC which seem to coincidentally corroborate your interpretation of the clues.
            4) Forrest Fenn-eese (the way he has provided Hints, has told stories and specifically answered questions regarding the poem’s clues and the treasure) should be uniquely or peculiarly understood by you. (e.g “everybody needs an intersection…am I way out on that?”)

            Does anybody have anymore?


          • Sure a lot of lists , isms and a shoulds going on, these which I am abhorrent to. LoL . What discipline was architecture refered to as being similar in expression of it. I think it was poetry when an architect was asked the question .IMO . Architecture in all its applications,same with archeology and poetry, are all I use for giving this poem solving a try. I hope and think it is enough.

          • (from wiki/google): Circumstantial evidence is evidence that relies on an inference to connect it to a conclusion of fact—like a fingerprint at the scene of a crime. By contrast, direct evidence supports the truth of an assertion directly—i.e., without need for any additional evidence or inference.

            On its own, circumstantial evidence allows for more than one explanation. Different pieces of circumstantial evidence may be required, so that each corroborates the conclusions drawn from the others. Together, they may more strongly support one particular inference over another. An explanation involving circumstantial evidence becomes more likely once alternative explanations have been ruled out.

            Tim, I would love to hear about how you ruled out alternative explanations about your ‘connections’ to FF, but also I don’t know much about your solve(s) (I realize intended), your comments about ‘facts’ and ‘evidence’ are hard to be open to and I looked up the above to make a point, it actually showed me that if you can make ‘enough’ of those, you might have something…but Occams Razor still says you’re LIKELY wrong (IMO of course!). Care to elaborate? Or can we expect your super helpful ‘be the chest/remote viewing’ response? Sorry, not sorry.

          • Hi Tbug.

            You wrote:

            “Tim, I would love to hear about how you ruled out alternative explanations about your ‘connections’ to FF, but also I don’t know much about your solve(s) (I realize intended), your comments about ‘facts’ and ‘evidence’ are hard to be open to and I looked up the above to make a point, it actually showed me that if you can make ‘enough’ of those, you might have something…but Occams Razor still says you’re LIKELY wrong (IMO of course!). Care to elaborate? Or can we expect your super helpful ‘be the chest/remote viewing’ response? Sorry, not sorry.”

            Well, I won’t give you my clues, as I have posted them – with many of my thoughts out here in Dal’s world.

            Besides that….IMO – circumstantial evidence will not solve this puzzle. If you think it can, you are inaccurate in your thinking. Of course, that is just my opinion of how to solve the poem.

            But i will try to answer what i can without revealing any info,

            “how I ruled out alternative explanations/answers”
            – great question. Diligence. Research. Re-researching. Imagination. And of course, facts….oh yeah…trial and error…..5 years of dedication.
            – I realized that if I am to play this game, I will have to listen to the creator. I have to be like the creator. I have to do what he told us to do. No exceptions. If I cannot, then I should not play.

            I can also say that my techniques, those I’ve stated out here…..worked for me. Some may have limitations to these techniques, because some do take years to learn or understand, but anyone can utilize them. How open to this utilization is always an obstacle. The public library is a great place to start.

            Tell ya what…and others…..these are topics I have used to acquire a vast knowledge base in esoterism. Finding yourSelf will suit you very well in your own resolve of this hunt. Notice the variety of topics…..many relate to a philosphical world, the paranormal, and the unproven.

            Some have even called some of the topics as “pseudo-sciencces”…….

            Geology was a pseudo-science at one time too.

            The Tibetan Book of the Dead
            The Egyption Book of te Dead
            Shamanism, the mystical, Numerology, Astrology, Divinity techniques
            Native American cultures, mythology, and creation stories
            The Maya, Inca, Aztec, Meso-America history and archeology
            Animation Art
            The definitions of every word in the poem
            English language
            Fine art
            Texual criticism
            Knowledge of Geography and map usage
            Listening to what is being said but not only by FF, but others in the world, this blog, and just relationships, their techniques, how they define things and why
            – Global Consciousness asserrtiveness can capture this
            Observing how things are said
            Understanding why and how things are said or written.

            How deep can you go into Forrest’s mind?
            – I suggest you dig deep into your own psych.

            How deep do you think Forrest went?
            – I dug in deep….because of these three words……”difficult, not impossible”

            How deep is the thinking needed?
            – Deep – many connections I have made are dead on, but I had to really venture down multiple avenues in order to finally get to a direct connection to Forrest. But it can be done with diligence and time.

            Do all rabbit holes lead to nowhere? Not sure. I went down one hole and thought I’d never get out, but evventually, as I went deeper into the hole, I uncovered what made me realize that the answer I finally acquired would be hard to negate.

            That is where I began.

            How does one think like Forrest and then, pull out the answers he has thought of – that refer to the clues?
            – Sit and meditate and try to apply your own mind to that of Forrest’s.
            – Are you willing to match wits with the creator, in order to win the prize he offers? Then I would think one must be as close as they can be – through thought – like the creator…..in order to overcome the creator,

            It is like the padawan becoming the Master as in Star Wars: ROJ. Eventually, if one pays attention to what the Master states and does, you too can achieve the same or more.

            In this case…the more is the chest.

            Interesting way I look at things, huh? Can you find untruths in any of that?

            Of course not, becaue facts tell the story the hints and clues cannot.

            Good luck to you Tbug….good post.

          • To all new-comers to the chase;

            All I can say is that Tim is a very unique individual with a unique view as to what is necessary to solve the poem.

            Please do not be frightened or discouraged. I would hay that Tin’e approach is unique. I applaud him for his outlook on life and I admire him for the depth of study he has put in in order for him to “Hind his way” to the chest.

            So far, Indulgence has not been found. It may be found by a “redneck with a Pick-up and a dozen kids” or it might be found by Tim – or even me. We all have a chance – Don’t be disheartened by Tim’t list of materials he feels necessary to succeed.

            Just the opinion of an old geezer who has been searching for two years, and who has absolutely no idea what most of Tim’s reference materials relate to – JDA

          • Exactly correct JDA…..thanks for including that.

            My techniques are mine…..no one else’s.

            I concur…..someone else may come up with a totally different way to solve the puzzle.

            I only add my two cents……and even that is probably too much.

            Thanks again for clarifying that JDA…..I totally agree.

            I’m just trying to be part of the community and exchange ideas.

            Best regards and good luck to you.

          • P.s. – Do I think that it is necessary to “get into Forrest’s brain” in order to solve the poem – No I do not.

            Do I think that a “reasonable” knowledge of who Forrest is, how he grew up, and do I think that it is important to know something about his major interests in life – You betcha’ JDA

      • Thanks Tim, for not taking offense. I think that you have a lot to add to the discussions, and you bring a very “Settled and mature” aspect to “The Game” – Thanks for “Playin’ – JDA

        • Yep JDA….”balanced”

          I think I actually being a side that I have not heard others speak too much on.

          Although some think of my “style” is “unorthodox”, then so be it. I guess it will be unorthodox to them. I don’t control the mindsets people place upon themselves, but I can open a door for them to look in.


  32. Lugnutz,

    My friend Haggis Mcbagpipes is wondering if you are a Scot and what is the name of your tartan?

    As we would say in Scotland ” You are a fine figure “O” a man”

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Ronnie –

      I am Irish!

      I enjoy the Highland games with my wife and daughter. I own several kilts. The plaid I wear is Blackwatch. I also own several utility kilts.

      If reading the phrase utility kilts isn’t upsetting enough I own a hybrid kilt. That’s a utility kilt with cargo pockets in a tartan plaid. I do not recall the plaid/clan name but it’s red and green and I wear it for Christmas.


      • Lugnutz,

        Thanks for the info, I have passed it on to Haggis Mcbagpipes..

        My mum and dad where both Irish, they both came from a small place called Raphoe in County Donegal.

        Ronnie the Scot

        • Hi Ronnie.

          I too am Irish…50%…..with a lineage taking me back to County Clare.
          Y wife and I have only dreamed of taking n the Irish landscape.

          Maybe one day.

          Cheers from across the pond – HNY!

          • County Cork, here. Along with English & French, too. I have a pumpkin head to prove it, with freckles.

          • Irish also in heritage.

            Giants Causeway area County Down.

            Hmmm? Do we have a trend here?

            Or is it confirmation bias…


          • County Tipperary here. Our family has a float in the St. Patrick’s Day parade in Louisville. One banner reads – So Irish Our Livers Hurt.

  33. Has anybody out there looked into the distinction between Cryptography and Steganography? No these are not species of extinct dinosaurs, but different forms of embedding secret code in a message. So from my understanding of these different methods, Steganography can involve a separate media, like for example Fenn’s book The Thrill of the Chase as deliberately isolated and possibly containing an unlock code from the poem itself. So bingo, there could be some possibility of a mathematical or alphabet code which is not contained in the poem itself as an anagram or cryptogram or whatever, but as a separate code in the book. Does that make any sense?

    • Not to me it doesn’t. Sounds more like grasping at straws in a tornado – But what do I know- NADA – JDA

    • Hi McKendree: I’ve done cryptanalysis for close to 20 years, so borrowing the line from Farmer’s Insurance, I know a thing or two because I’ve seen a thing or two.

      The poem needs to be self-contained: if there are any “unlock codes” as you suggested, they would have to be within the poem, and not exclusively found somewhere else in the book. Sure, they could be ~redundantly~ found in the book(s) or Scrapbooks, but once upon a while Forrest seemed pretty adamant that the poem’s clues could be solved using just the poem … and a good map … and/or Google Earth … and knowing that the treasure is more than 66000 links north of Santa Fe, and maybe having a comprehensive knowledge of geography, etc…

      • For a long time, I’ve wondered about the “more than 66000 links north of Santa Fe” statement.
        I’m not sure that FF meant it only as a comment about distance/location. I suspect that the statement may also be referring to something
        else, because the word “link” can have several
        different meanings.

        One possibility I am considering is that the treasure
        CONSISTS of more than 66000 links of some
        material (such as gold, perhaps?), perhaps
        comprising a thin chain, net, or “veil”. If so, then
        the “veil” might be used to “cover” something that
        is related to the location of the TC. If this is the case, the “veil” would likely be gold (or at least gold-colored), rather than stainless steel or
        silver. My reason(s) for believing this are secret
        for now, but will be not treated as a secret after
        the TC has been found.

        Good luck to everyone. All IMO.

    • I think there is some steganography happening in The Chase, but perhaps happening in a more archaic way and apparently in the opposite direction of your example.

      Remember Forrest’s “whisper” comment? That one made me wish I was smart enough to send coded messages to him, ’cause it seems like one or some are doing just that. Makes me think I should have stayed awake more often during indoctrination.


      • Joe–

        When has indoctrinated Steganography produced educated results? Almost never. Whispers are worth nothing. Listen to those who yell. lol.

          • Really Zap?
            You think that’s “clever”?
            I should think you find it run of the mill.


          • “Look unto Goodness, never utilizing tyrannical zest in some aberrational, nonsensical, irritating display involving overt tepidness”


          • Mr Sparrow

            Name calling is never allowed here.

            I guess your hoping the moderators can’t figure out your code?

          • To remove yeller stains scrub with a paste made of baking soda and water and add 1/2 cup of distilled vinegar during the rinse cycle.

          • Hi Lugnutz: if you had paid as much attention to my posts over the years as you have to Sparrow’s, you’d know the keyword.

          • Zap

            I pay more attention to your posts than anybody.

            Please remember I do not believe in the key word.

            You are looking in the wrong area. I can’t be more clear. You identified a recipe for creating the perfect cocktail and then you looked for more ingredients. Because you were looking, you found them. You added them and now the cocktail looks beautiful but does not taste good.

            Someone asked you yesterday why it is that you cannot acknowledge that you may be wrong. That is the key, for you and for each chaser. To recognize that you may be wrong and reexamine your solve.

            I will end this diatribe by again recommending that anyone interested in finding Penn’s cache pay more attention to Cynthia.

            Um, in my opinion

          • zap….you wrote:

            “you’d know the keyword.”

            IMO – what the key word is to me – it has been posted on the blogs, but not in the context to help them unlock the poem.

            Good luck.

          • Lug—

            My apologies. I wanted to see if you were paying attention. I see that you are. You are correct– that was uncalled for and very stupid of me. I’m sorry.

          • Sparrow –

            A couple of years ago, or within the last 2 years, Zap found words in the text of the poem. The technique he used was Stegonography. The words he found had been found previously but we just didn’t know the term stegonography. I have asked several times to discuss what he found. He thinks he is doing something so unique that he alone can find the treasure. Or to be fair, only he or HMA. HMA read the hints Zap provided in his comments utilizing the same type of encoding. At some point he will tell where he is looking and then he can learn about other experiences there.

            I am not an idiot. I do appreciate that you were attempting humor.

            Actually before I hit send I will add something about Zap. Right about the time that he joined the blog Jeremy P and others were discussing the fact that you can find the word Cimarron in the poem. Or, to be accurate, the word Cimaron. They took this to mean Fenn was hinting at an area that may not even be on the map. He absolutely knows that people used many different ways to spot words in the poem including my technique that produces 9 Montana place names including Condon.


          • Lugnutz—

            Thanks for your explanation. Thanks for a accepting my apology. I was trying to he funny and it backfired on me.

            I do understand what you are saying—- and we do need to be careful not to try to “see” things that really aren’t there.

            I do believe that acrostics play a “part” in the solution— but I think FF may have employed several different methods to hide the solution to the poem. You most definitely are hot an idiot– and I should not even joke about something like that. All the best to you! PS– it there is anything “hidden” in this post it is purely coincidental. 🙂

          • Sparrow –

            Back when chasers started looking at the poem they employed every technique possible. Share numbers insures that everything has been tried. People having varying skills sets and so some failed. I, for example, am not particularly good and breaking codes and so I needed to enlist software and even people. The way that I knew that the results were insignificant I shall now detail.

            Any code break, cipher, computer program, coordinates discovery produces a false positive along with a hit. For example there is no Cimaron. Fenn didn’t make a mistake or fail to code the poem properly, it is coincidence. I pulled co ordinates for the search area but using the same technique on the rest of the poem pulled coordinates in Asia.

            I will agree with Zap and others that if Fenn hid any words in the poem they should be plainly evident through a simple technique that a child could employ. I just think that my words make more sense than Zaos. I am not pulling easter eggs and hints, I am pulling names of places in Montana from lines that I currently consider clue lines.

            And here is where I am at right now. I think that each clue requires a different solve, a different technique.

            If we sat around a big table at the end of the week in Oak Island fashion, and shared our ideas openly, by now we would be telling our story of finding he treasure.


          • Hi Lugnutz.

            You wrote:
            “If we sat around a big table at the end of the week in Oak Island fashion, and shared our ideas openly, by now we would be telling our story of finding he treasure.”

            “Curse of Oak Island”…Damn I love that show.

            IMO it is a direct reflection of upon how long a mystery can be preserved AND how much money can be involved with treasure hunting.

            As you can see….that is also a team of people….who IMO are on the brink of busting that mystery wide open. The middle eastern decent bone they found give importance and now the connection of the holy land, Templars and NS…..all before Columbus’ supposed 1492.

            I’m talking that this can lead to a 200 year variance in the discovery of the Americas.

            And no…..I won’t reveal my findings, sorry….*winks*….

            Good luck…..”OI” does have good treasure hunting techniques to think about.

            Science will solve the money out mystery.

          • Hi Lugnutz – you have a pattern of vacillating between thinking I’ve got it figured out and (admittedly more often) thinking I couldn’t be more wrong. You say you don’t believe in any magical keyword, and that’s fine — just so long as you recognize that that is a “belief.” If it turns out you are mistaken in that belief, then there is the risk that lacking that information could hinder your solving the poem.

            “Someone asked you yesterday why it is that you cannot acknowledge that you may be wrong.”

            Of course I may be wrong! (Though not about WWWH.) I’ve been wrong three times before, and I have been open about that. But you’ll notice I don’t make excuses for it — I learn from past mistakes and don’t make the same ones twice.

            You recommend paying more attention to Cynthia, which I gather means you are commending her ability to accept each of her failures gracefully, reexamine, and attack anew. (You’ll notice that for the moment she has abandoned NM for the only state I have ever or will ever search.) Cynthia is persistent, and that is one of her great strengths. The same goes for Dal, and Diggin Gypsy, and Mr.D & Heather, and all the others that have been out 20, 50, 100 times. They don’t fall in love with their “solves”; when they don’t work, they accept it and move on.

            I’m just as persistent and obstinate; it’s just that my approach is more cerebral than physical. I’m never going to make 20 trips looking for Forrest’s treasure, which is why I have to be super-critical of each of my solutions before committing to each BOTG trip. If my next trip isn’t my last, it will at least be for a very solid solution.

          • Zap,

            My solve for the poem has a triple verification of the WWWH location is and this doesn’t include the book (TToTC) which has another two major hints for the location and many, many coincidences (“aberrations”).

            However, just this week (IMO)
            I discovered the exact structure of the poem and its methodology of revealing the Treasure’s “precise” location (and no I’m not a part of this private forum group).

            But even with this, I’ll quote Forrest here; “Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue”

            I know, you know this but what I can tell you is; this is exactly correct!

            If your methodology/solve doesn’t clearly explain why you don’t know for sure, your WWWH is correct, until you find Indulgence, then IT is not correct!

            Now I’m getting ready to say something that sounds contradictory but its not because of the methodology and this is why the poem is difficult to “interpret”:

            Even though I’m 100% sure of the location of WHERE warm waters halt is & I know the first 8 clues & the methodology , there is still remains some “wiggle room” as to the exact placement of the first clue on the map…

            If your solution doesn’t explain or reveal WHY the answer to this seeming paradoxical comment – then I’d take a long look at your solution.

            Let me elucidate on this so the apparent vagueness of this comment seem more understandable.

            Forrest says:
            – people don’t spend enough time on the first clue!
            – I don’t believe someone can find the treasure with out the first clue.
            – if you don’t have the first clue or know WWWH then you don’t have anything

            And yet still … … he says we won’t know for sure that we have the first clue correct until we find the treasure.

            And yet still… …he expects the successful finder will be confident and move delibrately…

            How can both these situations be true???

            Then how can we be both confident of our solve but still not be sure of the first clue, if the first clue is that important?

            Please understand I’m not confusing CERTAINTY or Absolute Certainty with the word SURE or confident. I understand that no one will absolutely know until they walk out with the treasure chest…

            And to preemptively answer doubt to my above statements – knowing 8 clues is not enough especially with the bit of “wiggle room” still left given the first clue’s exact nature. Also I have a family, responsibilities and limited resources and ultimately I believe Forrest when he says wait till the snow melts and the muddy conditions clear up…

            AND I’ll leave everyone with this;
            the last clue and the reason why BOTG is essentially necessary is;

            “But tarry scant with marvel gaze,”


            “Try to marry the two. The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can MAKE all the lines cross in the right spot.”

        • Sparrow,
          Ha, I hear ya – preaching to the choir, brother. Whispers may be helpful in The Chase but, elsewhere, they seem to be mostly detrimental. I’m guessing there’s going to be a lot more yelling before we get rid of the whispers and whisperers.

          • There’s been a torrent of “yelling” going onandonandonandonandon
            for a long time. I don’t think more of the “yelling” is needed — or even appropriate –, because it is continually degrading the value of the “legacy”.

            But of course, what I say in these
            blogs has little value to anyone, because like so many others, I don’t
            have the TC in hand. And I never
            say “I told you so” to someone,
            after being proven correct about
            advice I offered that was scorned.

            Good luck to everyone. All IMO.

          • TF—-
            Old Yeller was one of my favorite books as a kid. I’ve noticed as the years March on that I have become an Old Yeller myself.

        • Sparrow ? Can you speak up I can’t hear you!!! Did you say you have an old elf named Yellow?

    • Hi Mc Kendree, Mr. Fenn has said that the chest is not a door prize. He has said that he wanted the chase to be an epic quest. He’s not giving the chest away, he wants searchers to work to find it. Simply finding a code or a set of coordinates, would be contrary, to everything he wanted the chase to be. He has told us that the clues are “in the poem”, that the poem is straight forward, and that the words in the poem mean exactly what they say, as they appear on the page. That being the case, codes or ciphers, would seem unnecessary.

  34. From Wikipedia: steganography is concerned with concealing the fact that a secret message is being sent as well as concealing the contents of the message. The advantage of steganography over cryptography alone is that the intended secret message does not attract attention to itself as an object of scrutiny.

    I think FFs ATFs suggest no…and since he TOLD us to use the book, would that fit the definition? I’m leaning to no, and logically, that he didn’t hide anything but a box.

    • Fair enough. I like your opinion statement “he didn’t hide anything but the box” and this is alluded to in some ATF comments like “all you need is my poem etc”. Maybe the concept of steganography is not realistic given that Forrest himself suggested looking in his book (or books) for further “hints” and that the poem is published in the Thrill of the Chase book (although many people including myself originally found the poem online without or before purchasing the book). Could this be a ploy to promote his book sales? Probably not IMO. However Mr. Fenn has made somewhat contrary statements also, such as “if you had it’s coordinates you could find the treasure” and “the book chapters are important” and “If you have the hoB why would you be concerned with wwwh”. I paraphrase these statements from memory but I think they are close to what he said. Followers out there can correct me on his exact quotations. To me this does not totally rule out the possibility of some external codified set of coordinates that if solved would be a short-cut to the treasure solve. It kind of seems he has left the door open here.

      • Perhaps Forrest’s only message with his “coordinates” comment was ‘use a GPS!’

        If you have a GPS in your hand and someone gives you coordinates for some location on this planet, of course you can go right to it. Sorry, but I don’t see any hidden message there – just me, though.


      • McKendree,

        “if you had it’s coordinates you could find the treasure” I think the operative word is “if” you actually have the coordinates. The coordinates can only be determined “if” you are sure of where the TC is at, or very confident. It comes after the fact.

        “the book chapters are important” after the poem in TTOTC he says there are subtle hints in the book and he did not intentionally put hints in the book, never the less they are there. [its not an exact quote its the gist] The hints are in the chapters.

        “If you have the hoB why would you be concerned with wwwh” This was a response to a question about reverse engineering back to wwwh. If you are sure or very confident that you have the correct hoB, why would you be concerned about wwwh. I think this too is pretty much the gist of the statement; the wwwh has been correctly identified, why worry?

        As always my opinion

        • CharlieM,
          Forrest answered the reverse engineering question with, “If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?” I’ll agree it’s possible he was trivializing wwwh if you know hoB, but it’s also possible, IMO, he was asking us to seriously consider the imprudence of not understanding the entire poem.

          The poem says, “Begin it…”, and Forrest has stated on multiple occasions the importance of knowing where to start. Obviously, starting at the right place is important if the hope is to finish at or near F’s special spot, but could there be more to it than just that simple notion? Could there be some link or similarity between the poem’s end location and the beginning location, and could this then provide (additional) affirmation of a ‘correct solve?’

          Just saying there might be a different perspective to F’s comment.


  35. and also, since the poem was FIRST published in TTOTC, how is that ‘isolated’ from the book? It’s not…originally, and by intent, searchers did not have the poem, without ALSO having the book…of which it’s instructions tell us to use the book to look for hints…but that ‘all you need is the poem’ (paraphrasing). I think many have used the goofy sketches throughout TTOTC, mirrors, overlays and other steganographic methods to extract information that ‘helps’ with finding the chest…success rate? yep…nope. I will say, the bomb dropping sketch (pg99) is weird, but then aberrations are everywhere.

    • same wiki page for steganography:

      it is not possible to reliably distinguish data containing a hidden message from data containing just noise – even when the most sophisticated analysis is performed.

      the objective for making steganographic encoding difficult to detect is to ensure that the changes to the carrier (the original signal) because of the injection of the payload (the signal to covertly embed) are visually (and ideally, statistically) negligible. The changes are indistinguishable from the noise floor of the carrier. All media can be a carrier, but those with a large amount of redundant or compressible information are better suited.

      IMO, these suggest a level of difficulty in direct contradiction to some of FFs statements

      • Tbug – those are mighty big words that you are using there but I picked up on a key part of your message:

        “(the signal to covertly embed)”

        So as you mentioned “covertly embed” – I think I will do just that. Good night.

        Covert One

      • Yes, Tbug: hiding HORN in the 20th column of the first stanza is too difficult for Fenn to do, and too hard for us to find. Never mind (H)int (O)f (R)iches (N)ew in that same stanza. Bah.

        • Sparrow: FYI, I emailed you yesterday. If you didn’t get it, check your spam folder… 😉

        • Zap – I was waiting for you, you mentioned Stega earlier, thank you for putting it out there (I learned from the suggestion), and I get that you’re ‘on the inside’ and likely have a substantially better understanding of these things. To me within the construct of the poem being inside the book (by the architect) then by definition the poem is TELLING us there is a secret message, and therefore is not Steganography? and your HORN example…since when do poems have ‘columns’? Remember Shel Silverstein or Dr. Suess? Those poems were ‘aligned’ in strange, artistic ways, that IMO, would be ‘messing with’ them if you put them in a spreadsheet to see the ‘columns’, IMO, its a big leap to assume word counting/columns are the answer here…I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that you MIGHT be wrong, why is that plausibility so hard to understand, given lack of producing indulgence? I truly want to understand, maybe its beyond my simple mind…nope, nope no specialized knowledge here

          • Hi Tbug,

            “To me within the construct of the poem being inside the book (by the architect) then by definition the poem is TELLING us there is a secret message, and therefore is not Steganography?”

            I would agree that the point of steganography is that if it is done correctly, no one even knows there *is* a hidden message to look for — except the intended recipient. But how is that different with Forrest’s poem? If I’m correct (and I feel quite confident that I am), then wouldn’t you say Forrest has been rather successful in executing stego? Very few people seem to be finding the hidden message(s) or even looking for them. Instead, they are focusing on the main problem of properly interpreting the words in the poem. Just FYI, I wasn’t even looking for hidden words or messages when I discovered what I did. It just jumped into my head one night.

            “… and your HORN example…since when do poems have ‘columns’?”

            I would just counter that Fenn as architect is free to utilize any system he wants.

            “IMO, its a big leap to assume word counting/columns are the answer here…”

            I wouldn’t say they are “THE” answer; if I thought HORN was that critical, I certainly wouldn’t have blurted it out on a public forum. I felt safe in using it as an example of the kinds of things Forrest could easily have incorporated into the structure of his poem. It’s not rocket science — either to insert it or find it.

            “I’m not saying you’re wrong, just that you MIGHT be wrong, why is that plausibility so hard to understand, given lack of producing indulgence?”

            Sure, the HORN could just be happenstance. It’s only a four letter word. But I would think someone with a modest grasp of probabilities would at least find it curious that it appears twice in the first stanza of the poem — once horizontally, once vertically. I wasn’t the first to notice it; others spotted it years ago. It’s precisely the sort of thing that puzzle designers like to do, which is why successful puzzle-solvers go looking for these sorts of things.

          • Tbug,

            Although I don’t use the column approach, I can understand why people have attempted to solve the poem this way. You don’t necessarily need to mess with the poem in order to extract new information, as long as you don’t shift the start and end points of each line to suit a bias.

            For me, the poem is already “hardwired” with the information you need, and it is unnecessary to lay it out in a particular form to have it reveal its secrets. You just need to find the correct WWWH in order to make use of the info. As a result of this, I think it would be a good idea to find WWWH before hoB, as you could find yourself missing some critical info later on. Note that FF doesn’t state that if you find hoB first, WWWH is then redundant – he merely poses a question.

            As a general point, not directed at Tbug, there is a lot of fairly heavy criticism of people’s methods, usually without offering any alternative that has any greater degree of “proof.” Not one searcher has proof of where Indulgence lies, and so while it’s good to probe and challenge, blanket assertions of something being “ridiculous” or “not what FF would do” are as without foundation as the alternative viewpoints, IMO. This is a mystery unlike any other, and all ideas are equally valid until proven otherwise.

          • Hi vox.

            I concur…thre are a lot more people looking for this thing, without ever speaking up.

            Those are the scientists and the Texan rednecks of the world, who want to keep it their secret of their efforts.

            I’m fine with that, but it also encourages me to think harder if I am going against the best in the world.

            “To be the best, one must beat the best.”

            I.E. I play pool (8/9 ball). But when I first started playing at the age of 19 years old, and when playing a friend in the USN, he kicked my arse all over that table, and many others.

            …but…..as I played him – everyday for what seemed like hours at a time – I picked up on his techniques, he showed me how he plays, and what to look for in bank shots, the diamonds, angles, how you hold yor stick, etc….Eventually I did beat him…..300+ games later.

            I ran with the motivation to continue to achieve wins. I eventually became an equal to the teacher.

            That is how you become the best…..and once you are the best, you will win.

            It is all about how you look at yourSelf.

            Those were the “Proverbial Wisdoms Of Tim”.


            Cheers and good luck.

          • Thanks guys for the discourse, it is sincerely appreciated. Zap all your points are well taken, despite my disagreements. I’ve enjoyed your statistics/probability comments over the years, and you tend to apply those layers of logic in a easy to understand way, so thank you. So do you think ‘puzzle solving’ is ‘specialized knowlege’? I see both sides there, so yes acrostics can be super simple like your HORN example, and if ‘concealed’ can fit your steganography angle…since this rabbit hole is yet to be explored by me, I just see too many possibilities…and/or am not picking up on the ‘key’…which tells me specialized knowledge and/or a cipher (literal or otherwise hidden). As you said, FF was free to choose his path, I counter that he was then free to choose to combine an infinite amount of ‘tools’ and how would we ever know we’re using the right ones at the right time? very deep rabbit hole riddled with confirmation bias…all IMO IMO IMO. good luck and keep em coming, the whole chase has been a great learning experience, and I am far from equal to the teacher(S).

          • Hey Tbug.

            Good post….but…..not all rabbit holes are bad. You just have to pick the right one….*smiles*….


            You also need to put your imagination in front of the logic and then go back to the logic and then finish out the rabbit hole.

            Huh? What does that mean?

            Pay attention to the hole you are in…..the rabbit has dug many tunnels.

            Be safe.

          • Hi Tbug: Thanks for your post yesterday, it is appreciated.

            “So do you think ‘puzzle solving’ is ‘specialized knowlege’?”

            It certainly can be. It depends on the difficulty. Personally, what I ~think~ Forrest has done in the poem is not difficult. Even a simple Caesar cipher would be harder than what I’m assuming he’s done.

            “As you said, FF was free to choose his path, I counter that he was then free to choose to combine an infinite amount of ‘tools’ and how would we ever know we’re using the right ones at the right time?”

            Well, Forrest did say the problem was difficult — but not impossible. As for recognizing when you’ve used the right tools and solved a problem correctly, sometimes the answer itself provides that assurance.

    • Hello Tbug. The sketch on page 99 has been discussed that it was done by an acquaintance of Mr. Fenn’s many years ago. Others have discussed that it is a map. Did you view the video Dal posted last night? It was quite interesting.

      • Hi pdenver, I did watch those videos (yours and a few others as well)…I was fairly sure the pg 99 drawing was not by FF, so thanks. My comments above were about steganography (embedding messages in pictures is one method, but usually digital images, so not really in this case, I was sort of making a joke), but yes I was aware of the various theories about that drawing. I did not notice anything in Dal’s posted video, your mark in your video was a little more obvious (but I did not see the guns, so not exact match, and I can discount it as coincidence), more you care to share?

        Also, I’m a Denverite as well, and I’ve enjoyed your comments over the years, thanks, if you ever need a traveling companion, I’m able, willing and would consider it an honor…I may try and get a little fishing in this week, I got a new reel from santa!

        • Info given to Cynthia by a friend and posted in 2016: “ff said it was drawn by a Vietnam war correspondent with the initials JF who he has since lost contact with.”

    • “Mirrors” doesn’t much play any significant roll in my solve.
      G’s, now I’m emulating the flyer himself. IMO.

  36. Good analysis involved there T-bug. That is a good explanation of why steganography may not have been used. There is a basic need in all of us to pursue what is mysterious. Being an idealist takes patience, so we all want a short cut sometimes, so thanks for a wake up call so to speak—-What a funny thing the mind is at times. It is hard to stick to a straight forward approach, but we all need that reminder to stick with what is obvious and avoid the mysterious draw our minds seem to have towards codes and hidden messages. Thanks.

    • Hi Sparrow,
      Since sarcasm doesn’t always come thru clearly in writing I wanted to verify, you’re shading me right? My only point in the last couple days was that our awareness of those ‘other’ possibilities (not enough info, we cannot know) should not be thrown out because we convinced ourselves of some ‘facts’. I learned myself some things today that ‘enough’ circumstantial evidence with a unified inference (Tim suggests if you ‘connect’ enough things to FF, then it must be FF), AND you disprove the MORE LIKELY alternatives, then you may have something. Occam and definition of insanity are my guiding light…and I’m very much in the dark! Interesting parallel…Socrates’ allegory of ‘the cave’…how do we become enlightened? I would surmise NOT by listening to those shouting they have the answer…all IMO.

      • TBug—-

        lol— I was using a little steg to pull your leg. Sometimes I don’t even really understand some of the posts. Basically, I’m just weird.

        • haha, no problem…I of course did not consider a hidden message! so yes, well done!…wait…what was the message? crap…I can’t even figure that out…I got no chance at finding the chest!

          I do enjoy your posts, always makes me laugh, so thanks for keeping the fun part alive…I need to work on that…wait…work?

          • Tbug– I was using gait and bait, and I threw waft in there too.l for good measure. lol. No real message just acrostic from the poem.

      • I believe it t’was Plato and not Socrates who wrote the “Allegory Of The Cave”, it doesn’t matter here, but just thought that others may take your statement as true…. We become enlightened through our “experiences” and the use of “a priori knowledge .” This poem is drawn from Forrest’s life experience and knowledge. I say try to understand where he’s coming from, his time, his outlook of life, his writings, his travels, and his apparent need for a legacy. I think this will help you to understand why he chose the words he did to write his poem and in doing so will help you determine the answers to the clues in he poem. W.I.S.E.

        • Hi MoW.

          *offers you a key to the main gate of Difficulty-land*

          Be safe in your travels.

          Remember….that white rabbit that is always trying to get you to do what he wants?…….wiley little critter I tell ya!


          • Hey Tim, …yeah, the white rabbit has been all over this chase but he may just lead you to the right place.

            The key to this poem is in the ………?.
            I must go, have safe travels also.

        • you got me MoW…plato..ha, I even looked it up and my frazzled brain made it Socrates anyway…ha.

  37. It’s been a long haul.Going to sit down with a nice cup of Rosie Lee. Think I deserve it.

  38. Hi community….not to pat my own back….but this is the email I rcvd this morning…..is it a good sign?? I hope!

    “Omg, Timothy…

    Everything you desire just might become your reality, and sooner than you think.

    After an atypically tumultuous “1” Universal Year (2+0+1+7=10, 1+0=1) marred by disasters, disease, political turmoil, and a cosmic clash of turbulent events in December…”

    Numerology…..gotta love teh positive energy it affords!


    Good to all and of cource, me too!

  39. I am new here, and I see people post “subscribe”. Is that the only way to get notifications without making an actual comment on the topic?

    • HaydukeCC: I would say it may not be the preferred way, but yes — you have to post ~something~ in order to check that “notify me” box which leads to a subscription email being sent your way. Doesn’t actually have to be the word “subscribe” (no keyword is needed to signal subscribing). Dal would probably prefer a post that contributes something to the topic at hand other than just “sub,” but I don’t think he has a strict rule about it.

      • And please, please for the love of Forrest, we have seen enough “clever” ways of subscribing using subxxx…

        A good thing to do is simply comment on what’s been said right above or compliment somebody.

        Looking good Goofy!

        • Where is Goofy?
          I kinda miss the heavy panting and the tap- tap- tap- tap on the coffee table. Hope his truck didn’t break down… or maybe he found the chest and is out playing with his new monster.

          • that’s true, you can hear the panting through his words. How funny. I use to think it was some code, that he was leaking hints, now I see it as him trying to catch his breadth from laughing at our comments. The Hills have eyes…

          • Boy, you guys must be bored.

            Truck is doing fine Seeker…….and I don’t have a new F650. Yet.

            If you only knew Charlie. 🙂

    • thanks for the replies

      for some reason I didn’t get any notifications on this, or from the Tarry Scant discussion


      • Make sure you look out for a follow up email with subject:
        ” Subscribe to comments on … [NAME OF POST]”
        and then click on the “Confirm Follow” button.

        Check your junk/spam folder for either the subscribe email or for the thread posts (mine recently redirected themselves into my junk folder).

        • thanks, Vox, it had one this time, and then I got a notification for your response

  40. That’s a halting rhythm you display, wdor. Some kind of periodicity going on there. 3 very arresting posts! Need to stop and think about it.

  41. OK—so this is what I think. The treasure is hidden underneath a partially exposed triceratops skeleton in southern Montana or Wyoming. I’ve been having strange dreams lately so bare with me. lol

  42. Tim Z and Jeannie,

    Having Irish blood we could all be related?

    That’s the great thing about the chase bringing all nationalities together.

    I’m not getting in to politics but I’m going to have a talk with P.M Teresa May to see about getting F.F a state visit.

    I only heard about Forrest in May 2017, and having read a bit about the guy, he has to be commended for what he has done in his life.

    Especially being a pilot like so many of these guy’s around the world putting there life on the line, so that we can have our freedom.

    “O” I forgot to mention Jeannie that Haggis Mcbagpipes told me to tell you that if you get fed up eating fish you can always eat frogs.

    Ronnie the Scot

      • Tim Z,

        Does that mean that if we are brothers and you find the T.C that you will share 50/50

        Ha Ha

        Ronnie the Scot

        • :o)


          But I will say, if I ever make it over to the isles with the treasure, I’ll be sure to let you sit on stage with me as I explain my solve.


    • Hey, Ronnie, great idea! If you succeed in getting that state visit organized, can you put in a word for me with Her Maj? I think all us Brit searchers should get an invitation. I’ll bring my own sandwiches, cause after Brexit there’ll be no budget for palace grub. Should be fun!

      • Voxpops,

        Her Maj is due me a couple of favours as I done a few repairs to Buckingham Palace over the years.

        Perhaps it’s now time to call those favours in, I will put a word in for you.

        Ronnie the Scot

        • Cheers, Ronnie!

          (You want to watch those Windsors – make sure they pay up front!)


          • Voxpops,

            If all else fails then we could always team up and kidnap Her Maj corgis.

            Ronnie the Scot

    • Hi Ronnie, I can tell, Haggis is a funny guy. I hear frogs taste like chicken so that would be ok.

      • Jeannie,

        Haggis Mcbagpipes say’s that he will take your word for it that frogs taste like chicken?

        Ronnie and Haggis

  43. I thought sub meant the treasure was partially underwater half the year and in ice the other half, with no mildew, and an intense glare on top of it when the sun hits it at high noon.

  44. WWWH

    Which set of letters do you think should come first? Weird question? Yes. That’s why I’m putting it in Odds & Ends. Just curious what you think.

  45. R. Buckminster Fuller (paraphrase)

  46. Seeker, I wanted to say a quick “thank you”. You asked me a question a few weeks ago after I posted my most recent search story. It was a very pertinent question that I avoided answering. The reason I avoided answering was that my solve was very nearly, but not quite, complete, and although I couldn’t truthfully reply, not having been to the spot, I did have a misgiving about that particular location in relation to one of FF’s statements, and wasn’t yet ready to acknowledge that to myself or anyone else until I’d verified everything (as much as one can).

    Both your post and one or two others, along with past experience, prompted me to keep working, and I’m very glad I did. I discovered that the spot I’d identified was not the final location but the penultimate one in my solution. After some vacillation I managed to tease out the place I was looking for, and it does now align fully with FF’s statements. Even though your approach irritated the heck out of me at the time ( 😉 ), it was successful in getting under my skin enough to encourage me to keep working.

    As it turns out, I had already identified my final spot at the tail end of my trip, but had been thwarted from going to it due to running out of time and energy. Then, once home, I made the mistake of second guessing my own instincts because I didn’t “like” the spot. More fool me…

    Anyway, although our approaches to the poem and manner of interaction may differ wildly, I have to admit that your thoroughgoing questioning of everything has its merits. I still think you’ll have to climb down from the fence one day, but on this occasion you did me a favor – so thanks!

    • Dang, and all this time I was trying to knock out the competition. I might need to inflame my approach.
      {insert smiley face}

  47. Fly Fishin’

    There are several searchers who believe that several of the clues are bunched together. The question is, “Where does this “bunching” logically occur? Let’s take a look at the poem and see if there is a logical spot.

    “Begin it where warm waters halt And take it in the canyon down, Not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown.”

    The only line that references any distance = NF,BTFTW. So, how far is “too far to walk?” I personally settled on about 15 miles. I then got the book, TFTW, and changed this to about 10 miles.
    So, I “put in” at about 10 miles below my wwwh spot.

    No bunching yet.

    “From there it’s no place for the meek, the end is ever drawing nigh;”

    “From there (your hoB spot) it’s no place for the meek.” This implied “some” distance away – No bunching yet (for me).

    “The end is EVER drawing nigh” – If the poem had said – “The end is drawing nigh” I would have interpreted this as being a fairly short distance, but since it said EVER drawing nigh, I felt that this increased the distance. So, in my mind we traveled “some” distance from hoB to the meek spot, and then traveled “Some” more distance (probably a bit longer than hoB to meek spot) to reach the “END spot. No bunching yet.

    There’ll be no paddle up your creek. In order for it to be a creek, it has to have length, or it is just a pool. Right? I MAY not have to travel up this creek though, but IT has length.

    “Just heavy loads, and water high” So, there are “Big things” (Heavy loads) in or around our creek – “And water high” – Maybe a waterfall, or at least an indication that the creek starts at a higher elevation (don’t all creeks start at a higher elevation? – Sure they do)

    So, after our END place, we have a creek that requires no paddle, some big things (heavy loads) and maybe a waterfall or a need to go higher up our creek. We have grouped three things that COULD be in close proximity to one another – our first possible “bunching”.

    “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down, your quest to cease, but tarry scant with marvel gaze, Just take the chest and go in peace” Nothing here that indicates movement or distance – at least to me.

    Nothing else in remaining lines indicate (to me, anyway) the need to move, or distance. So, to me the “bunching” occurs after the END is reached. This is just how I see it – you, or others, may see it differently – JDA

    • Bunching aside ~’“From there (your hoB spot) it’s no place for the meek.”
      I thought the whole point was to locate wwwh. That said, where in the poem indicates where WWWH might be.
      If we’re looking at the poem with any logic in mind… “Put in” is a nice indicator. But Seeker, fenn said the clues are in consecutive order and we need to follow them in consecutive order!
      Well, What is the poem saying? Begin here… put in below. From there… HLnWH. Where IS the “begin”? We know WWWH is the first Clue… but it doesn’t say where WWWH is.
      IF, all the information to find the chest is in the poem… where does the poem tells us to go to,that gives us anything to actually work with… HoB?

        • James…In case no one else has noticed…this is about the 20th time you’ve slipped this notion into your posts over the past few days.
          Are you trying to start a conversation about this? If so…why don’t you lead off…

      • Hi Seeker;

        I was just trying to answer Fly Fishin’s question regarding “Bunching” or how close clue “locations” are to.each other after hoB.

        To answer your question, for me, I use a VERY obscure definition of “in the wood” to direct me to a geographic area in Wyoming.
        Once at this geographic area in Wyoming, it is pretty easy to pick out a wwwh location. I then take the canyon down, and then “put in” BELOW the hoB.

        Like you say, “The CLUES are in consecutive order. For me, “in the wood” is NOT a clue, but is rather a HINT – which I think can be used “at any time”, as long as the HINT helps with the clue.

        Hope that this explains my thinking – Good questions – JDA

    • JDA

      you stated that ““The end is EVER drawing nigh” – If the poem had said – “The end is drawing nigh” I would have interpreted this as being a fairly short distance, but since it said EVER drawing nigh, I felt that this increased the distance. So, in my mind we traveled “some” distance from hoB to the meek spot, and then traveled “Some” more distance (probably a bit longer than hoB to meek spot) to reach the “END spot. No bunching yet.”

      I know you and maybe most look at this a a distance, ever coming closer.

      What if it’s a time thing?
      Sure as the end is ever drawing nigh?

      Just a though, I believe it has been looked at before, maybe time for a 2nd look.

      • Can you explain your “TIME” thing? The END
        will be here in 45 minutes? The END will be here tomorrow, or next year? How will it arrive? – Not sure I understand. JDA

        • The time thing would be the end of your time. Lets say you are searching Yellowstone and are afraid it my erupt again.

          If someone “MEEK” were searching in Yellowstone and the though of a major eruption could occur at any moment that would be no place for the “meek” because the was “drawing nigh”

          Drawing nigh, again is it time or distance? It could also be to the left and I would guess there are other thoughts also.

          Just another way to look at something.

          • Jim;

            Why would Forrest put this in the poem?

            You are saying, “If you are meek, and afraid to go forward with your search, the end will be coming soon, because you will turn tail and run.” This may be true, but why would Forrest put this disclaimer in the poem? It helps NO ONE get closer to the treasure/solve.

            Sorry, this one just does not compute. Art least not for me – JDA

          • JDA
            sorry it does not compute for you.

            it’s just part of his description / clues to the treasure. it tells what lies ahead of the searcher if they continue down the canyon.

            You say it “HELPS NO ONE” that’s your answer. my thoughts are it’s to bad it did not compute for you.


      • Jim,
        Ever means always.
        If that interpretation can be usable… The end seems endless in its draw nigh.
        Like you said if IS was only used it would read differently as well.

        Are we really looking for an end of anything in that line or could HLnWH have something to do with endless?… And like you said, involving time.

        • Both those notions work for me: endless, as in never ending, and a concept of time – including one’s own demise.

    • Your message tells me a BUNCH of things that I have
      suspected for a while. Good luck to y’all. I said “y’all”.

      By the way, I think I have found a(nother) reason that the
      number 3 seems to be mentioned so often. I see it as a

      So we have 3, 5, and 9 being talked about as somehow
      “special”, it seems. I can see reasons for each to be,
      although they are not huge hints or clues. Still working
      on the number 66,000. Please stay comfortable, everyone. I said “comfortable”. All IMO.

      • ….and as odd as it seems……

        Here you speak of something I had already sspoken upon.

        The magic of the number 3.

        Nah!! That would be just silly and obsurd and……”supernatural!!”

        Uh-oh….I think you just poked at the skeptics.


        *hands you a key to Difficulty-land”

        Be safe up here…..many are in the hunt!!

  48. JDA,

    ” “The end is EVER drawing nigh” – If the poem had said – “The end is drawing nigh” I would have interpreted this as being a fairly short distance, but since it said EVER drawing nigh, I felt that this increased the distance. So, in my mind we traveled “some” distance from hoB to the meek spot”

    I wonder if “ever” could be interpreted differently, such as ‘always’, making it descriptive of the current location, rather than directing to a location. Maybe it is warning to not go “from there”?

    • Hi HayDukeCC: I think your interpretation of “ever” is about right — that once you reach this point of solving the clues, the end is continually getting physically closer. (And of course this suggests to me that the end was NOT necessarily continually getting closer at earlier poem clue locations.)

      • Hi zaphod73491,
        This is a brilliant interpretation of ‘ever’. But on the coding method used by Mr Fenn, I agree more with JDA and Seeker.

    • HaydukeCC;

      For me, EVER means more than once, for you it means ‘always’. Who is correct? Forrest isn’t talking as far as I know, so until the chest is found we each have a 50-50 chance of being right or wrong. Good luck to ya’ JDA

      • JDA,

        I threw it out more as a question. I’m not yet sold one way or another on many parts of the poem. I’m pretty open and like to ponder various options.

        I want WWWH to be Madison Junction, but so many uncertainties from there, that I am not going to force anything in place to fit a place I like to be.

        Maybe “end is ever drawing nigh” might work if one were trying to go upstream below the Hebgen Dam…


    • Then again, it probably should be noted that we are all reading the poem incorrectly.
      I look at “the end is ever drawing nigh”, and hear everyone defining words, and talk about distance, but what if it is being read wrong?
      I read it as “the end I sever drawing nigh”. Draw “ing” “nigh”, sever the end, so, nig/h. Gives the end is “nig”. The place that the chest is at ends with “nig”. The last letter being “n”, second to last letter being “i”, and the third to last letter of this place is “g”. As you walk your path, this place is getting closer from this point of the poem. Without the word “ever”, that line would not make sense. The end is drawing nigh. If “draw” is an instruction, it is followed by 3 letters, (ing), that is what you would draw. We need to draw it “nigh”, that makes no sense. With the word “ever”, we are told to “sever” the end, or the “h”. It now makes sense. Draw “ing” “nig”. At that point, the place that ends with “nig” is getting closer. That is one way to break down the line by following instructions. That is about as straight forward as it gets.

  49. Hello everyone 🙂 I found out about the chase in May ’17 and like everyone else I have been trying to figure out the poem (in my spare time).

    There is something I’ve been pondering and I thought I’d throw it out there for comment…

    Begin IT where warm waters halt and take IT in the canyon down…

    What is IT? Why didn’t Mr. F say: Begin where warm waters halt and take the canyon down…

    I think IT is significant.

    Is IT the search? Like, Begin the search where warm waters halt and take the search in the canyon down…

    Presuming IT is the search, then the above doesn’t have anything to do with water flowing down in a canyon. The search goes down the canyon. And, if there’s no water flowing down the canyon then maybe where warm waters halt has nothing to do with water… but that’s an entirely different topic to discuss.

    I’m curious as to what you think IT is or can be.

    Thanks and have a great day!

    • Hi Jasper, we posted the same question. I admit I did not see yours before my post as yours didn’t show up in my email until 10:46 despite you posting at 9:42. I guess there is a little lag. Anyway, apparently we are thinking alike here. Is ‘it’ a tangible thing or the search, and does it change to something else in the NPFTM line?

    • Jasper;

      There is a whole thread called “What is “it””.

      On the list of topics on the right of your screen, Look for: Discuss the chase. Below this is “Searcher’s Discussions” – click on it. A new screen appears – Item #14 = What is “IT” – click on it, it will take you to a couple of threads – start with the most recent, and work your way back as far as you like – JDA

    • Jasper –

      The word It makes the two early lines 8 syllables.

      I truly think this is the only reason.


    • Jasper, a lot of people will give you ideas on what “it” is. I would say not to follow that advise and try something on your own merit. If you want to just know what searchers think, then my two cents would be to break down the line by following it’s instructions. “here” in the word “where” could be seen as an instruction. Begin “it w” here. This could lead you to “begin wit”. You now have “warm waters” and the letter “h” alt. Alt could be an instruction, alternate. So, by following the instructions, you would get “Begin with warm water salt”. Or “Epsom”.
      You also have to look at every way the line can be broken down and make note of it. Some lines can only be broken down one way, others could have 10 possibilities. The thing to realize is that in normal speech, poems, blogs, etc… You would be hard pressed to find 4 lines that can be broken down by instructions like this. To find 8 lines is basically impossible. This poem has 24 lines that can be broken down in such a way. That is only done by design. If you follow the instructions, you will see why we cannot mess with the poem, and will discover what the poem is hiding. It’s straight forward, just follow the instructions. Line 21 basically tells you this. Hear the words he is speaking, and take it even farther. Words in words, letters that make up the words. This is a way not really looked at within the community. I have yet to find in the poem something telling me to look up words and use my definitions of those words, except in line 16, the word chest. See hest. It’s the only place I have seen in the poem that tells me to look something up.
      Look for a way to solve the poem. That will go a long way for you. Believe me, the masses have tried to define words, moved words, guessed at what they think f would do or means by the words he has used, and have come up with things that just makes no sense. The guessing game. If that is the way to go, someone will have already beaten us to the solve. Find a niche, be different, enjoy the comments of everyone telling you that you are wrong when you know you’re not. Just follow the instructions, my best advice. It may seem way out there but you will see it’s not, the poem will open up without playing the guessing game.

      • charlie….you seem to not know what you are telling others…. You are guessing just like the rest of us!….You have no facts! You are guessing how to interpret the poem are you not? Detective or not you are guessing!

        • how is following instructions guessing? If you have the words “And with my”, are you telling me that I’m guessing when I say to put the word “and” with the word “my”? If the poem TELLS you to do something, how is that guessing? How am I guessing when I put the word “and” and the word “my” together.
          A word that is key. How am I guessing when I say the only words that he is referencing is “that” and “key”.
          The poem tells you how to solve it by giving the instructions. To not follow the instructions is guessing.
          Lol, I have no facts? The facts are right there, for everyone to see. The thing is, I’m not guessing like the rest of you. Don’t know why you would involve everyone else in your foolish way of guessing at the answers, but so be it.
          I am not a detective. Never said I was, where are you getting your info?
          You tell me what I don’t know what I’m telling others. Tell me there are no instructions, that the one who does the best GUESSING will be the one to find the chest. Yea, you must be trying to just make waves, you cannot be serious. Most everyone on this blog is pretty smart, that’s it, you must be just making waves or having just a little fun, because that post is about as dumb as they come. But, I am guessing at the thought of you just kidding, IDK, maybe you aren’t like most on this blog. I guess I’ll just have to see. Lol, guessing, good one. Hey, the word that is key might just be “inconceivable”. Wait, that’s a guess.

          • Charlie, if I may. I just happened to tune in and read some posts. It looks to me that Poster Manowar meant in his response of “Detective” , may be referring to poster CharlieM. I just read his post and noticed he said he was a detective/investigator . Different Charlie, Charlie. IMO .

          • charlie,
            I find this interesting. For one, I don’t see a lot of posters being as detailed in showing their methods. You might be on to something. My opinion doesn’t count for much though.

            In terms of a word that is key I’ve recently been thinking it might be “word” using similar logic to yours. But since neither your “that’ or my “word” is in the poem everyone else will think we’re crazy. I’m comfortable with that.

          • Sorry, Charlie about the Detective remark, two Charlie(s) here. As you say you are following the instructions in the poem. Where does it say to “The end i sever drawing nigh”. It doesn’t say that. It says “The end is ever drawing nigh.”

            I would suggest to not mess with F’s poem. Look at SB 62 and other comments made by F. He has said outright…Not to mess with his poem and at other times said it’s straight forward. To me you are messing with his poem in you interpretation of it. And, guessing on how to follow the instructions. Just like everyone else. Until you find the TC there are no facts just opinions. JMO.

          • Hi MoW.

            I’m what others have called “those who think the poem should be kept the way it is” – a poem purist. Rightfully so in this hunt.

            IMO – ANY messing with the poem skews the outcome and results. One must solve the clues, then afterwards, applying the clues to a location, then applying the location to a path one will have to go, then embark on a journey of BOTG on your path. Unfortunately, then trial and error begins for each clue all over again.

            The hazards of a “poem purist”.

            This hunt is “difficult, not impossible”.
            – my method could also be the same method others have used on those multiple trips. Who knows. I dont and haven’t.

            But…..Why a poem purist?

            1. Forrest said not to [“mess with my poem”].
            – notice “my” – directly and rightfully owned – as in possessive. In some ways it is a very clear warning not to do so. “You won’t win!” is how I’ve accepted it to be.
            2. This also seems to be an indicator that if you do, you will fail. Because you didn’t listen to FF.
            3. If you question whether you are messing with the poem, question the variables of “the twisting” first, to see if they reflect factual data that can keep you on track with “understanding the poem” and what it is telling you.
            4. Everything we need is in the poem.
            – what is everything? This is another question you should have asked your Self prior to beginning the hunt.
            – okay, okay, TTotC, a sandwich, a good map and possibly a flashlight will/may help too, but those are already stated as such….yes, they are all outside the poem (except the book, in which we know the poem is in the book) so that is why the book is helpful. The flashlight is needed if it gets dark on your quest. The sandwich, if you get hungry. The good map will supposedly take you to the destination. I’m just referring to what is inside the poem in order to get us to the trove.
            – I’d even add in a compass, because I WILL NOT forgive myself if I get lost in the woods, and did not have one with me. I think that is a lifesaving device over a GPS. Not much more, but still up there.

            Of course, people use all kinds of techniques that they think will unlock the answers they seek….so I can’t really know if what I say will help, but I’ve never done those things [“messing with the poem”], and without doing so, I seemed to have a pretty good general solve.

            …and that was just using the contents of the poem and the 166 words contained therein.

            Good luck and stay safe out there.

          • Hi Fly…..see what I did there….LOL

            I can’t control on how you feel.

            I also only give a wide-eyed version of my thoughts, in order to put myself squarely into this hunt.

            My opinions….are mine….many disagree withbthem, because they are “out there”.

            *shrugs* I’m thick skinned.

            Do I think the trove will be found…..by me? I hope. This year? If I can do another search, I will keep hoping. I have begun a coin jar!!

            Personally, there are a lot of smarter people out here in the hoD, than I….I respect that.

            But, I’m not a Texan either….just Tim….with a slight passion for LZ. 🙂

            But am in this thinking game against those smarter people. Like you, we now need to do two important things….
            – solve the clues before “they” do….AND….
            – get your solve to take you to the treasure before “they” do.

            I think it is a foot race and will be solved this year, but then again, I’ve been on that race since 2015. Paranoia? Maybe? Confidence? Maybe?

            People have said things they thought the poem meant, and some of those things from the Global Consciousness had mached my General solve….soooo, I do think people a e getting closer….just from that vibe.

            I hope something I have said has helped you with your general solve…..I’d hate to have given you an answer, that I would have to chase down!!


            Good luck.

          • Thx Tim,
            I’m less nervous now. Only yesterday I thought I had an equal chance of finding the now not so shiny bronze chest full of gold, gems, notes, etc. and a frog. Now, competent anonymous searchers speak of keywords, coordinates and dimensions with intents to search as the ice thaws so they can claim the treasure as theirs, finders keepers. If I pull a rabbit out of my rear end and solve this thing I’ll let you know. The pressure is mounting but the coffee still flows. Peace.

          • JW, it’s kind of funny, but the word ‘that’ is in the poem. To let a little out of the bag, one of my distance measurements is 113′. It struck me kind of ironic that the word “that” is the 113th word in the poem.

            ManOwar, sorry I jumped on you, no excuse, just apologize. As far as messing with the poem, it’s not doing that. To mess with the poem would change the instructions and/or anything else in which the poem would not be read correctly. We already know how f feels about commas, spaces, etc… to string the poem out is not changing it. It does say the end is ever drawing nigh, but, it also could be the end I sever drawing nigh. That was an example anyway, to show that there are instructions and other ways to see what f is saying. We cannot possibly have a solve reading the poem at face value. The one fact that holds true about this poem is that every line has what could be seen as instructions. All 24. This doesn’t happen, believe me, I’ve looked/tried everything and the most I found was 6 lines that could possibly be considered along the same line. But 24 lines, that is most definitely without a doubt, done by design. It’s not easy to do, and would have taken a lot of thinking on f’s part to pull it off.
            I’ll agree with you as far as it is just all opinions, you are definitely right. But the messing with the poem, I don’t see it. If I mess with any part of the poem, I would change the instructions I am to follow. Example: f has told us not to mess with the poem. Those are instructions, and we don’t mess with the poem. If f says ‘and with my”, isn’t he telling us to put the word “and” with the word “my”? If I do exactly that, am I following an instruction or am I messing with the poem? If I, before following the instruction, threw out the word “and” now that would be messing with the poem, and would cause what is suppose to be to actually be something else. In this case, I would have “with my” not “and my” like I should have. To solve this poem by just what’s there by face value is impossible. It just would not be able to pinpoint a spot. When you see something in the poem that has no explanation except for it is obviously done by design, you have to see it through. Lol, I never said I liked the solve, but in the end, it works out, flows very well, and I know there is no way I am smart enough to get what I have. I just couldn’t do it, I think that is a question searchers should address. Look at your solve, could anybody have guessed or come up with the same thing you have? Do you think f made it that easy? Or, do you see how it must have taken someone a long time, and looking at it, to know that you could not dream this stuff up, but yet there it is. You know that you that things just cannot possibly work out the way they do unless someone has designed it.
            I would challenge anyone to right a 24 line poem containing instructions on every line on how to find a small space in the Rockies. You would need the perfect words, containing the perfect lettering, in perfect positions in the poem to pull it off. It would take years of trial and error. Believe me ManOwar, I tried many different ways to approach the poem. I had my days of reading it straight forward, face value, Past tense, future, word definitions, sounds likes, you name it, I’ve probably did it. I’m on every day for the last seven years, not to toot a horn, but that is a lot of research and trial and error. I could post a lot of what not to do, for sure. This final way feels solid, it is good, but like you said, and like I’ve already gone through, it is just an opinion. It may just be another thing I know what not to do, but some of the stuff, lol, I just think “come-on”, that just cannot happen, that is a design.
            Alsetenash, I believe you are right, I’ve apologized. I should maybe change my name back to what it was back in 2011, poisonivey. I’ll think about it. (no, Ivey is not spelled wrong, my last name).
            I’ve re-read my post to ManOwar and feel it was stupid on my part. Went a little overboard. He didn’t deserve the sarcasm. Ohh, he is wrong, but he didn’t deserve the sarcasm,lol.:)

          • Hi Charlie…and no I won’t rehash out my poem purist philosophy, but you wrote something that caught my eye….probably related to “messing with the poem or not”…it was unclear to me.

            “We cannot possibly have a solve reading the poem at face value.”

            I disagree. Because the poem is intended to be read that way in order to understand the geography or lay of the land per se, in order to get to the trove.

            In fact, I actually think that the clues only serve one purpose…..you have to “marry” the clues to a map/geography, and then etc..etc…etc….

            Think about the logic of building something, like an architect (FF), he normally will start at the basic foundation (everything he needs) and then builds this design (the poem) with all the necessary components he has acquired (the clues, the geography, etc, etc) and now commences upon making it completely vague in tone…..sound….the way it is written….etc…etc.

            You can reverse engineer the poem in some mannerism, by just observing…..*smiles at Seeker*…..especially on things that relate to what has been said, written, heard, seen. Observing has many variables, including imagination…..and….though not directly thought of…..it also has an “indirect” line to building confidence – based upon those different variables.


            Good luck and be safe.

          • Charlie, you wrote; If f says ‘and with my”, isn’t he telling us to put the word “and” with the word “my”? If I do exactly that, am I following an instruction or am I messing with the poem?

            Yes you would be following instructions, I agree with that, it’s in the poem exactly the way f wrote it. No problem with that. It was splitting the word “is” and adding it to “ever” to make another word “sever”, that was making your own instructions.

            Yes, do follow the instructions in the poem. Good luck, and I didn’t take offence to your reply.

          • F, in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest? Thank you ~Nope
            Thank you Nope. Nope. f

            Incase some have forgotten.

          • Tim~ ‘You can reverse engineer the poem in some mannerism, by just observing…..*smiles at Seeker*…..especially on things that relate to what has been said,…’

            So you’re the one… that reads my brilliant post… lol I don’t even proof read them.

            I wouldn’t call it reverse engineering. It was something fenn said something about climbing a hill or a mountain and so fixated on where you’re going ya forget to turn around to see where you been. When you take the Quote from the book about knowing the place for the first time… things seem to click.

            I one theory I have clues [ for lack of a better term ] walking to you. You start at wwwh but view all the clues coming to you… to do this, one might need to be in a very ‘precise’ spot [there’s that word again] to see all the clues line up in order. The catch 22 here is; HLandWH might be wwwh.

            So ya might ask why fenn would need to take two trips ‘following the clues. In this scenario… the trips are from the car to the “solve” “A” place on the as map. and not in very close proximity to a human trail. Which infers a hike to get to wwwh and the location of the chest.

            Hold on Seeker, fenn said searchers walked past the remaining clues… Yep it seems the did… and never found the chest because they might have simply left the location of the chest. fenn is not going to narrow down footage, but he has said “with in two hundred feet” So it might fall down to a very small spot to view the clues properly and those who were there only got close… they were fixated on leaving to find the clues.

            It’s simply a theory and to be honest, not a very good one. What I don’t like about it is… fenn’s comment about hoB. The only way for this theory to work is hoB as to be the location of wwwh. I like that thought… but in a viewing manner of clues coming to you… it doesn’t really seem to work well. Unless hoB is only telling us where wwwh is.

            What was I saying? oh right… you actually read my post? I don’t think Goofy or Dal read them any more and they kinda have to… just in case.

          • Hey Seeker.

            I told you I was a “fan”!! :o)

            I’m just surprised you haven’t gone out and have searched.

            IMO – you have some good ideas.

            But – I don’t think you are ready to make that “trial and error” leap, huh?

            I’m understanding ya……I just can’t afford that angle either. So I sit and take time to read the “world views” of the hunt – patiently waiting for my next break in the “temperal order of time” and try and seek out a nugget or two or three or even nine clues….*smiles*…..

            As for that theory of yours….hmmmm….never crossed my mind to look at the poem this way. But I can’t really subscribe to it, because “following the clues” to me seems to extend to – “by walking forward”……not allow “the clues to come to you”.

            If you think about that at a higher level, an unproven technique in many ways – you are requiring the “spiritual world” to bring to you the path that you are to take.

            Not that I don’t think the spiritual world can help you, because I rely on it all the time, but some just think that it is insanity to even venture on that path.

            So be it. Do you think you have this ability within you to just live in the now and let the world around take over? Many, many, many people wiil not or cannot.

            Although I can’t control the “Global Consciousness” or what it affords to others…..I can access it for my own doings – knowing that many thousands cannot or will not. To me, that puts me a step ahead of many.

            Just crazy thoughts, huh?

            Cheers and good luck.

          • Seeker,

            “The only way for this theory to work is hoB as to be the location of wwwh. ”

            You can’t construct other scenarios that would fit into the poem where WWWH and HoB has some distance, even TFTW distance, that would still apply to the situation?

            What if Madison Jct were WWWH, and Hebgen Lake were HoB, and searchers put in below the dam….

            Why would that not work for you in your analysis?

          • Seeker,

            That’s some very valid thinking you’ve presented in your above theory, IMO. I’m not sure, but you may have been thinking of a statement made by Fenn on MW. It was the featured question on March 24, 2016 in which Forrest encouraged searchers to consider the “what ifs:”


            Down in the comments section, searchers were speculating on what a “what if” might be when Fenn posted the following comment:

            “A hypothetical example of a “what if” might be, what if I was looking so far ahead that I neglected to notice what was beside me.”

            IMO, your theory regarding his statement about noticing what’s around you, combined with the statement in the book about arriving where you started and knowing the place for the first time, is a solid line of thought.

            I will say that I lean away from the idea that the point of perspective is from WWWH or that hoB and WWWH are the same location.

        • Charlie ~’ If you have the words “And with my”, are you telling me that I’m guessing when I say to put the word “and” with the word “my”? If the poem TELLS you to do something, how is that guessing?’

          I really like the way fenn put this in the poem. I think [ agree ] he is saying something important here, but not telling us to ‘do’ something… at least not yet.

          We all are doing the same thing as we move along in this challenge; at first; read the poem, then think, then read and analyze etc.
          Then we get to a point where we dissect words, some of us right down to the letters of words…

          I’m reading this line as a possible “and with” to mean more like; a meet up, to join his “treasures” rather than carrying a box in there.
          Sooo, fenn has gone alone to meet up with his treasures bold,{ line of thinking.} he can keep this place of his “treasures” {plural} a secret, but is willing to hint they are *’riches’ new and old.*… and not so much that he is talking about the “Chest” or the “Trove”

          The fact that fenn uses TreasureS, chest and trove doesn’t necessarily make each the same. When fenn talks about the treasure chest it is always singular as an object or item. The same for the chest and his trove he leaves… all singular.
          It doesn’t make sense that fenn would call the chest, treasureS, to mean the chest and it contents, in that line of stanza 1. And never use that term /word again.

          The “with” in this case doesn’t seem to imply, going with, in the normal use or common use we might think it is… but it might mean… to join up with, in a poetic usage for interpretation.

          It would still be straightforward in meaning of word usage and definition, but a little bit of word freedom that a poem allows over the academically correct editing. Even when you read Focus Poetry you will see how words can be twisted to make them work somewhat out of the norm.

          This, imo. is why fenn chose the avenue of a poem to present the clues… poetic freedom of word twisting/bending and still straightforward in honesty and word usage. It changes nothing in the poem… not a word… not any of the word’s meanings or definitions… it simply is not common to our eyes to see it this way. But it does change the outcome of how the poem can be read as.

          The possible point to all that? IF the idea is remotely true… we might for be look for “Forrest Fenn’s Lure” but actually looking for his “treasureS”… If we can understand what fenn refers to as TreasureS [ probably, explained in the book ]… the clues will make more sense when deciphered.

          BY definition;
          Treasure or treasures are important to the one who owns it / them, and may not hold value to an other. { think like your mom keeping your very first baby shoes }… basically worthless to everyone else. lol Unless you’re famous.
          Compared to Trove; having no ownership and is of value { such as gold and precious jewels or because of age }.

          “With My TreasureS” can simply mean “to join with” and this could help by understand Riches New and Old, to what the clues represent.

          Just thinking and analyzing while rambling and rumbling.

          • Seeker…nice write up. Short version….perhaps the impetus of the whole motivation behind the Chase.
            TreasureS being his life to date…all inclusive…and how it is embodied in this special Place. Probably NOT where/what most folks think…I believe.

          • ken,
            I don’t know what short means when I chat about the challenge..lol.
            That will happen only at the end of it all.
            As far as fenn’s life date for help with the clues? Sure.
            The trick is, which is needed to be understood that matches a location. ALL his stories, one in particular, a combination of types of experiences [ younger years to older years ], the war or service? and on and on.

            My short version of my comment is more about; treasure{s} being a place that hold importance to him… and relates to “riches new and old” to give us a possible location. I think fenn’s treasure chest is nothing more that a lure to get other’s attention. The real reason fenn is leaving, his he want to be with his treasure{s} … what is and has been.. the location itself.

            LOL Holy crap that was mushy… I may need a tissue.

          • Seeker…mushy and you don’t come in the same box…too messy.
            I have always equated the TreasureS as the meat and potatoes..so it is easy for me to skip over the small stuff.
            I believe it is a fine line as to which is more important…the Place… or the events/motivations from his experience. To discount one over the other prematurely would be to strike out(pun intended) in the wrong direction…or start at the wrong place completely.
            All folks hope that their life has meant something leading up to the end. Fenn has just taken his hopes to the ultimate level. Somewhere north of SF in the Rocky Mountains is a place that embodies Fenn’s entire life(metaphorically) warts and all. And yes…I agree that the treasure chest is partially a “lure”…but I suspect there is more to that too.
            The right mix of motivations/experiences and locational background may be the correct formula.

          • Seeker;

            A very nice write-up. I have now included this idea in my “book” – It fits very well – Thanks – JDA

          • Seeker, thank you. I was just making points about how the poem may be read incorrectly and what we should watch for. You just did a lot better job than I did explaining.
            It seems to be running on all cylinders, the thought of straight forward, face value, can solve. When someone first reads this poem, like all of us, didn’t it just sound “off”? You and I see the poem totally different, but the concept of reading the poem is not far off. Forrest has used “HIS’ rules and “HIS” style, which is outside the box to begin with, that’s kind of why I posted above his ATF with “Nope”. The words alone are not going to do it. It’s not so much in defining words, or proper sentence structure as it is just one person saying what he wants to say and saying it the way that gives him what he wants.
            The poem is a creation, and one he is proud of. Looking at Forrest, seeing how he is, how he explains things he wants the person to know, knowing if something said may be taken another way and either telling how he wants that saying interpreted or just not saying to let the other person rummage in their minds what he is saying, and with everyone that has met him basically saying the guy is unique, to interpret his “creation’ in a normal sense, lol, makes no sense.
            Everything has been done by design, it’s just finding that design. And again, like you have stated before, there will be a “checks and balance” system to support.
            Yes, I like a lot of ways f put this poem together. There are many angles to consider. ‘With” may be an instruction, it may lead one to read the poem differently, to think about it, maybe all the “instruction words” do that. Look at them all:
            in, here, with, can, keep, take, own, no, are, below, is, add, load, at, must go, leave, on, will be, etc…etc…etc…
            Look for the nouns,lol, yea, and the conjunctions, verbs, etc….
            Messing with the poem is foolish, following the instructions not so much, but, if you think it is messing with the poem, isn’t putting your own definitions and trying to make words into what they’re not a form of messing with the poem? Not you Seeker, I’m saying it to those that may not see the difference. Messing with the poem is just taking things and moving them around with no reason or in this case, not being instructed to do so. If I say the poem should start at line 9, so I move the first two stanzas to the end, that is messing with the poem. If I just put a word or letter in a different spot for no reason, that is messing with the poem. If I see “and with my”, and from that I get “and my”, that is not messing with the poem. It is a way to solve the poem by following instructions. It may not be right, but is plausible.
            You are right, Seeker, it’s almost a pattern of how to decipher the poem. You go in stages, read the poem, plot a spot, try to answer the clues, acquire the path, force ATF’s, reanalyze the solve, find mistakes, re-do, find different angles, we’ve all gone through different stages and exhausted many hours. Hopefully, the final stage is seeing the design. The “no doubt” it’s done by design solve. Einstein’s theory of everything. I would bet Einstein would have quit a long time ago. Nein, nein, nein, back to gravity…

      • I would be happier about more people thinking this way if it didn’t also mean I’d have to be reading it for the next 6 months.

      • Charlie

        I will not comment on far out there our ideas are.
        Rather I would like to ask a question.

        Where does the idea of “Epsom” take you?

        Other searchers have been lead to New Mexico by the bath connection. Some to Anaconda.


        • E + P = 3 + 1 = 4. It turns out to be the first number of the latitude coordinates. It’s also support info for wwwh. Because the next line, I get “And city”. (which turns out to be the second number of the coordinates). Also support info. Lines 5 & 6 = Begin with Epsom and city.
          A place that is dear to him is “Deer Lodge”/ Deer Valley. Got it’s name from the deer coming down from the mountains to feed on the “salt deposits’, The whole area is part of the Yellowstone Geyser system, just happens to be dormant now. The only “city” here is Anaconda, once voted on to become the capital city, lost out to Helena. Warm Spring Creek runs through Anaconda, along with hwy 1, veterans memorial hwy. Off hwy 90. In Anaconda is a hardware store that was once a train stop/depot (halt). The place was built by Robert Nickel.
          Anaconda is wwwh. The hardware store just “nails down” the start.

          • oh, sorry,lol, Epsom is the sum of e+p. (I didn’t explain that to well, you probably got it anyway).

          • We discussed this before, Lug. You may be right, it just wouldn’t fit being nailed down. Doesn’t matter, the start place is Anaconda. Have to go there to get to Evergreen st and the “canyon down”. (second clue).
            Here’s something dumb Lug. Look at Anaconda. “on” is an instruction. “anac” on “da”. Anacda, an anagram of Canada. Remember that warmwatershalt website with the clock counting down. Everyone wondering if it was Fenn or not? (I have no thought on it either way, maybe, maybe not) Anyway, remember when the message was repeating: Yankee, Hotel, Foxtrot 6 times then went to some radio garble? Well, Yankee, Hotel, Foxtrot, or YHF are the call letters for an airport in Canada. Hearst Canada.

            I may be on the coattails of some idiot with a good solve, or maybe f. Who knows. Lol, no, I don’t put much weight to it at all, just find it ironic. Knowing my luck, probably most likely I’m following the idiot. Will admit, if so, that idiot is pretty smart.
            (lol, have to save face somehow) Sucks my blaze has an owl with a mushroom beak (cepe’s toe) and at his toe is a “Y” stick. The shadow may know, but only if you follow the guidance of cepe’s toe. lol, (cepe is French for mushroom) how disappointing, I think??? My “Y” stick is what I stand up for the shadow, Indiana Jones in the map room. Two people can keep a secret if one dead. The dead one being the shadow.
            No worries, when I don’t find the chest, won’t ever say someone must have already found. I will never say that unless I actually saw someone get it. Cannot believe people have actually said that, and proceed to share their ridiculous solve. Please don’t tell me you are writing a book. Ranks right up there with: f must have moved it, or, I found it but it’s not there now. I swear it’s under water, just follow the 8 blazes and don’t forget the 5 keys needed to unlock the hoB. It’s just a short walk, and make sure to do everything in one afternoon. Even though f said, It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. basically saying he did not make both trips in the same day, we will ignore that, because that would make things not fit. Lol, sorry Lug, started rambling…

  50. What does ‘it’ within the poem represent? Does ‘it’ just represent the chase?

    If the answer is no than ‘it’ is one thing in the first two lines of stanza two and maybe something else later.

    If ‘it’ in the first two lines, BIWWWH ATIITCD is representing something tangible and not the chase then it seems it would be either a creek, river, or road.

    The next ‘it’ we have is in the line FTINPFTM. This could suggest that it was one thing earlier and now it is something else and that is NPFTM, though maybe not.

    Any thoughts this mysterious ‘it’?

    • I have thought the FT,INPFTM ‘it’ is a marker where one would know to park their vehicle and go botg.

      • I have thought that too but still not sure. So you believe that it is different than the 2 previous it’s?

        • Yes, Aaron. A perfect place to hide something right in the open in the poem is to disguise it with a bunch of other ‘it’s that are more mundane. Imo

      • Thanks JDA, I continued some IT thoughts over there.

        By the way I have been wanting to ask you. If you care to share, what made you decide that in the wood was important for you to use to find your starting point?

        • Aaron;

          When I first learned about the poem – the last two stanzas stuck out to me.

          “So why is it that I must go
          And leave my trove for all to seek?
          The answers I already know,
          I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.

          So hear me all and listen good,
          Your effort will be worth the cold.
          If you are brave and in the wood
          I give you title to the gold.”

          Stanza #5 asked why Forrest might have hidden the treasure, and Stanza #6 (For me at that time) told me where…”Worth the cold” = in the mountains somewhere…and “in the wood” said “in a forest somewhere”.

          Since I was focusing on these two stanza’s, I looked up every word in both stanzas. It took a couple of months before I found my obscure definition of “in the wood” but I found it.

          Previously, I had developed a couple of failed solves in Montana, I had developed a methodology of how to start – how to find “A” wwwh, so, I had already settled on “A” wwwh in Wyoming. Once I found my obscure definition – it “proved” that I had chosen the right one.

          Had I not used my “Montana Method”, or had I not picked a wwwh the obscure definition would have led me to the correct wwwh.

          IF I had chosen the wrong wwwh, as a place to start, the obscure definition would have indicated to me that I had chosen the wrong one – it is that powerful – Probably more than you wanted to know – JMO – JDA

          • Finding the right method to reach the right WWWH is what it’s all about. Good luck with yours.

  51. Since there’s been some talk about whether or not clue places might be bunched up or spread out, I’d like to run a scenario past you.

    Suppose for a moment that FF wrote his poem around a journey that is perhaps between one and ten miles in total length. There is only one WWWH, one canyon, one hoB, one creek, one blaze and one hiding place next to or near the blaze.

    Now imagine that in one search season somewhere between 10 and 100 people decide to start their search at that particular start point (after all there’s only one correct WWWH, and so it’s very likely that a number of people will find it each year).

    What’s the likely outcome? Surely, a number of people will converge on that one blaze – possibly even on the same day. Realistically, how long can a treasure hunt like that continue? Is the fact that this hunt has gone on eight years simply down to the fact that our searchers can’t find the hidey-hole? Or are we saying that WWWH is so obscure that only a couple of people have discovered it in that time?

    Frankly, that scenario doesn’t seem logical to me. So let’s try an alternative.

    Imagine instead that the journey is (for example) between 100 and 200 miles in length. There’s only one correct starting point and canyon, but there is more than one hoB, more than one blaze, more than one creek, but only one (genuine) hiding place – although there might be decoys.

    Our same 10 to 100 searchers turn up during the season, but what is the chance that they will all take the same route? How much more likely is it that their interpretations will differ more and more as their individual journeys progress. How much more likely is it that the hunt will continue over many years? And ho much more likely is it that the searchers will experience the huge variety of terrain and situations that the Rockies have to offer, and that Fenn would wish them to experience?

    • vox,

      Love the insightful questions… makes one wonder, about a lot of possibilities. Makes this puzzle all that more interesting, and the idea that one of us might consider something in all of that that others haven’t.

    • Vox;

      Yes, it is logical that the bigger the search area, the more likely it is that there will be more of everything – hoB, meek places, END’s, HL & WH etc.

      My guess is that the total length is more than 10 miles, less than 50. My guess is that several people have either logically, or accidently wound up at the END location, and then got the wrong HL & WH and Blaze locations. This is just my guess. JDA

    • Vox – you wrote:

      “Or are we saying that WWWH is so obscure that only a couple of people have discovered it in that time?”

      *hands you a key to Difficulty-land*

      I agree.

      Stick with the obscurity in all the clues…..that is where you will find the nine clues.

      Do you honestly think FF would make finding a couple of MIL “easy” in that use of the word? Or do you think he would have made it so difficult and obscure in finding the clues and their meanings to become “simple” once the solve is complete – like he announced (paraphrased)?

      “Simple” is a subjective view.

      IMO – I think that is a very true statement.

      Good luck to you.

      • Thanks, Tim. I agree with you about there being a high degree of obscurity or opaqueness, although I believe there is a “key” that makes some of it much clearer. But I was really asking people to consider whether or not a truly big picture approach might suit FF’s objectives better.

        • Vox;

          My question to you is, “When does taking the “Big Picture” view come into play? Do we use the “Big Picture” view at the beginning, near the middle, or only at the end?

          If I zoom out too wide in Google Earth, it becomes impossible to pick out an exact spot to begin – at the correct wwwh spot.

          I have to zoom in quite a bit in order to locate a spot that might work – so, for me no “Big Picture” view at the beginning.

          Near the middle of the search? Not sure. I do not think that Forrest has divulged enough information yet for us to get any real idea of what those words mean yet – “The Big Picture.”

          I believe that you have to be nearing a correct solve before the poem (Forrest) reveals enough information for you to begin to formulate an idea as to what the “REAL” Big Picture is. Once you grasp what it is, all of the clues that you have “Solved” begin to have meaning.

          Only then do you begin to understand WHY this particular wwwh had meaning to Forrest.

          Only then do you grasp WHY Forrest called a particular land feature “hoB”

          Only then do you understand why “Water High” is so important – not just in solving the poem, but why it was important as it relates to all aspects of geography.

          Only then do you understand the significance of the Blaze(s) – significance to Forrest and significance as it relates (again) to geography.

          But what do I know – probably NADA – JDA

          • JDA, thanks for the questions. It’s nearly eleven pm here now so I’m going to bed. I’ll try to remember to reply in the morning.

          • JDA,

            I love how you summarized that.
            I first try to consider where and why FF would want to be laid to rest in a place, then what would work for the first clue that we are told to solve.
            I believe that if one knew for certain where his WWWH was, that many could go and recognize further solves.

          • JDA, you said:

            “When does taking the “Big Picture” view come into play? Do we use the “Big Picture” view at the beginning, near the middle, or only at the end?”

            For me the big picture began at the very beginning – even before WWWH, and then immediately narrowed with laser focus.

            It broadened out again very soon after that. And that pattern of wide-narrow-wide repeated itself again and again.

            Approaching the end, the big picture becomes a middle-sized picture before dropping down to a pinpoint location – but I warn anyone taking this path, the landing is bumpy!

            You said:
            “If I zoom out too wide in Google Earth, it becomes impossible to pick out an exact spot to begin – at the correct wwwh spot.”

            That’s true for me, too. After using the big picture at the very start of the quest, you use the poem to narrow it down to WWWH. At this stage Google Earth is just a tool – no more helpful than any reasonably good map. Then, once you’ve found the general location, the poem provides the information to locate the exact starting point. It doesn’t matter too much if you haven’t solved this part of the puzzle yet, as the descriptive part of the poem will help you along the way, but eventually you’ll need to return to the beginning to find that precise location.

            You said:
            “Near the middle of the search? Not sure. I do not think that Forrest has divulged enough information yet for us to get any real idea of what those words mean yet – “The Big Picture.””

            This is where I think that a lot of searchers fall into a trap. I did too, and it took a lot of effort to free myself. The big picture, and a dawning awareness of the precision required helped me. I will tell you this, JDA, IMO your creek is a vital part of the Chase, but it’s too easy to get bogged down there.

            You said:
            “I believe that you have to be nearing a correct solve before the poem (Forrest) reveals enough information for you to begin to formulate an idea as to what the “REAL” Big Picture is. Once you grasp what it is, all of the clues that you have “Solved” begin to have meaning.”

            I think this is an extremely perceptive comment. In my search, once I’d extracted most of the essential precision tools, I couldn’t make full use of them until I had glimpsed part of the big picture that is at the heart of the search. Then, I was able to deploy them to reveal the picture.

            But that’s not the whole story. Even after understanding the big picture, there’s more…

            In many respects, JDA, I think you and I have similar approaches; it’s just that my big picture is bigger than yours! 😉

          • Hey box….you wrote….

            “it’s just that my big picture is bigger than yours! ”

            When you start mentioning “buttons”…in outta here!!



    • Voxpops, I like the analogy that was used by another searcher/poster that the poem is like a maze. And the maze has many entrances (WWWH).
      So of 100 searchers in a given area will they all enter at the same place? Not likely, and of the ones that are correct they likely have an immediate choice of canyon down, 2 at a minimum – down as in south or down as in downhill. And if there is more than one option for canyon the maze gets even larger. So if half pick the right entrance and half of those pick the right direction from there we are already down to 25 at best. So by the time you get near the blaze maybe a few make it or none. And then the options for blaze seem endless.

      It is quite the maze, even if you were limited to 1000 sq miles.

      All you have to do is read this blog to see that the number of ideas and solves is endless.

      And for each group of new searchers you end up back at square one.

      • That’s an interesting concept, Meadowlark. Are you saying that a searcher can choose their point of entry? If so, I wonder how those possibilities might be “encoded.”

        • Voxpops, For me the poem is only coded by the words that FF chose. Remember he said they look like simple words but he felt like an architect constructing it. And we would be jeopardizing success if ignoring any of them.

          We have the words, we have logic, and we have imagination. The finder will have used all of these in the right combination.
          Too much logic won’t let you far enough into the maze. Too much imagination will get you lost in the maze.

          And the finder will have made many trips to search; there is a BOTG learning component as well. I think you can vouch for that.

      • Meadowlark;

        I have to disagree. You say, “Voxpops, I like the analogy that was used by another searcher/poster that the poem is like a maze. And the maze has many entrances (WWWH).”

        True, there are MANY wwwh in the Rockies, and most are north of Santa Fe – BUT, there is ONLY ONE wwwh that will lead to the treasure – therefore, there is only ONE entry into the maze that will lead to the TC. Any other entry, even if it leads to “A” wwwh, can NOT lead to the TC, and therefore will lead to a dead-end somewhere.

        In order to accommodate every possible wwwh – your maze would have to be gigantic – multiply this by the (then) wrong canyon down options, the “then wrong” hoB options etc and your maze will be as large as the universe itself (well, almost) To work, your maze can have only one entry, at the correct wwwh, and one final prize at the center. Sure, there will be lots of dead-ends, and wrong choices, but that is what a maze it.

        Assume I have picked the wrong wwwh. I enter the maze marked – wwwh entry – I can take several paths marked “Canyon down” ONLY if I have picked the right wwwh starting point, can I find the correct “canyon down” leg – right? If I picked the wrong wwwh, ANY canyon leg I pick has to lead to a dead-end – either immediately, or at some point after that – at the wrong “Put In” spot, or wrong hoB etc. – but you WILL end up at a blocked path somewhere, because you picked the wrong wwwh in the beginning – There is only ONE correct wwwh – JMO JDA

        • JDA, there are dozens of WWWH just among us here. I agree there is only one path to the chest, FF said “precisely”.
          The maze is gigantic, you make the point well.

    • voxpops – you said “Imagine instead that the journey is (for example) between 100 and 200 miles in length. There’s only one correct starting point and canyon, but there is more than one hoB, more than one blaze, more than one creek, but only one (genuine) hiding place – although there might be decoys.”

      You may have a point. FF said it was difficult but not impossible to find so, to me, that means almost impossible. What you have described aligns with almost impossible. Who knows? Your theory about why it’s not been found might be right.

    • Vox,
      Sure… But we have a problem. This sounds like Dal’s example of a maze puzzle… try and try again, by opening a new door to see where it goes, or is it a dead end.
      While this might be that kinda challenge… I have to wonder if it would take a long time if we really know what the clues are and why 9 clues. I mean, If we have figured out the first few clues then something should click, or as fenn said, gets easier, and if we figured out the first few clues we could find the chest.
      The problem doesn’t see to be in the guess work of which way to go, and more to, why searchers didn’t know they had the correct clues or location. It doesn’t matter how many times a searcher is at this search area… they didn’t ‘know the clues’ even when deciphered.

      For example; JDA has many blazes… this could be true. But I don’t think his method is correct. But, the fact that he mentioned ‘many blazes’ when the poem says “blaze” does ask the possible question, are the clues reference just that… blaze markers. The thing is… are they “human trail markers?” And no, I’m not talking animal trails either… it’s way to simplest and they change season to season.

      However, IF wwwh is a type of Geo marker, well it can work.
      A high water level, or even a high elevation level of a once glacier [ comprehensive knowledge of geography comes to mind ]. Canyon down, could represent the low level [marker] of said landberg, and “not far but to far to walk” is simply describing the travel of the ice-sheet or ‘Ice-river” carving out the now canyon over “time” [ not far in it’s travel over it’s life time, but can travel back in time ]… so each step of the way can refer to a Geo marker [ many blazes ] and involving geography, and the thoughts of down the road thousands of years etc. All it would take is to understand a deciphered clue and why it is a clue. WWWH a glacier [ but maybe the searchers didn’t understand the significance of why they were there ]… the searchers didn’t understand that the glacier is represented by a Geo marker or that all the clue references could be.

      Fenn said ‘most of the clues “references” existed when he was a kid… this would mean, at least one of the Geo markers was placed after 1930ish, so that works as well.

      You have folks on a scavenger hunt looking for places that resemble what it looks like today… but it may not look like that at all in a thousand years, or even today… the Geo Marker scenario is precise to the inch, represents land features, border/boundary lines, even heavy load etc. [ whether here now or from the far past ] and will have markers of those references in the far future.
      It may also explain why fenn might have had to follow the clues to “complete” the poem. Another words BOTG for a completed task/solve. [ for the exact reason I’m not sure, but there could be many reason ]

      Your scenario is more like turning over every rock and looking under every bush until something shows itself and then move to the next location and do the same… and still if that location isn’t quite right… start over and look under another bush or follow another creek or kick another stone, rinse n repeat… no offense… that sound like guessing what the lottery numbers might be, and with the same chances of winning… and nowhere near “precise”

      JDA theory or his explanation of his process, is to find one WWWH and walk through the poem to get to another WWWh and repeat this process for many times… which results in having many blazes AND results in having many of all the clues…. I just took his thoughts and gave it a twist for one solve with many blazes to mark “a” clue reference and a single solution with one trip, without driving, which guessing an unknown distance, without relying on later books for answers, without codes and attempted to finalize a check and balance to the ATF bones we all beg for.

      With all that crap said;
      I’m open to a better explanation of your theory IF you can give reasoning, that logically matches the ATF comments, to give credence to why this idea/theory of yours is nothing more than a poke and hope… Just keep trying and trying and trying until every sq inch of 10 miles, or any other area size, is grid searched. It just doesn’t make sense to me that this is the method…

      • Gosh Seeker, my end is ever drawing nigh – and it’ll soon be right here if I have to wade through all that! I’m just on my way out the door, but will attend to it when I get back.

      • OK, let’s give it a go… in small picture form!

        No, it’s not really like the maze. Don’t forget I use coordinates in addition to descriptors, so I have very specific places to go. The coordinates are derived from the poem, BUT they don’t tell me whether I’ve reached the (true) end of the hunt or not. It’s only when I arrive that I find out where I am in the big picture. If I were to start over with hindsight, I could save myself a huge amount of time and effort because I would know how the drawing pans out. But approaching the poem blind – as we all do when we first start searching – I can only do it bit by bit. I’ve said before that I’m not the brightest – more of a plodder – so it’s taken me much longer than perhaps another person armed with the same info.

        Think of it more like a series of frog hops. You need to make both mental and geographic leaps. It’s not guesswork (although plenty of room for error), just a huge amount of mental calculation based on logic and imagination. The imagination is required to adjust from where you are to where the next place is generally located. That’s because you are not given complete sets of coordinates – you must fill in the blanks from the oblique references in the poem. But Mr. Fenn has kindly left markers – some visible on satellite, and some visible on the ground. These help you understand whether you’ve calculated correctly or not. If they’re no longer visible in fifty or five hundred years, then the poem is still solvable, but it’ll be a bit harder without that visual confirmation.

        At one time I thought that Geo markers might play a part, but soon realized that they don’t. IMO it would have limited Forrest to places that might not fit his blueprint. He has substituted his own markers – and some of them are pretty amazing (I have not revealed all that I’ve discovered).

        I’m not going to try to match ATF comments to what I’m saying. If other people don’t accept my reasoning and pictorial evidence it’s of no consequence to me. I know from experience that it’s extremely hard to accept other people’s methods if they don’t chime with one’s own. We just have to find out for ourselves – or not.

        Believe me, if I thought my method was just a poke and a hope, I wouldn’t be getting on planes every few months to cross the Atlantic. Yes, I’m as hooked as everyone else here, but I’m also a reasonably rational person. It’s not a question of digging up mountainsides – it’s a question of understanding the clues – fully and completely.

        When I first realized that the clues repeated, my heart sank. The Chase seemed endless. But gradually it narrows down until your hops are getting smaller and smaller. And the blaze near(ish) the end is a stunning find. But do you think FF could make the final ending a nice easy stroll in the park? No such ffing luck!

    • Vox,
      I think your question is based on a false premise….that, somehow, distance between clue points is the main difficulty in solving the poem and/or individual clues. Or to put this another way, your contention seems to be that having a large separation between clue/places makes each clue harder to solve? In your first scenario people quickly solve all the clues and get to the blaze. In your second scenario the searchers are suddenly stymied due to the distance between the clue/places and can’t solve clues or get to the blaze? I guess that only makes sense to me if your approach to solving the poem has you wandering aimlessly between each clue (BOG) hoping you stumble across the next place by accident.

      You said: “Our same 10 to 100 searchers turn up during the season, but what is the chance that they will all take the same route? “ The route they take should be dependent on solving the next clue correctly and knowing where to go ….not how far away the clue is.

      I fail to see how the process of understanding and deciphering each clue (in order to get to the next point) can be dependent on the distance between each point. Also we have the Fenn statement that the clues get easier as you go. If clue solving is dependent on distance between points how do longer distances make it progressively easier?

      I would suggest the two main reasons searchers fail is that they haven’t correctly identified/understood the first clue (like F has suggested), and then assume the clues are strewn over a long distance.

      • Colokid;

        I think that you are missing Vox’s point. What I think Vox is saying is this:

        Pick a spot on a may – and call this point wwwh.

        Probably this point has a “canyon” associated with it, since there is almost no place on earth that it perfectly flat. Take this “canyon” south, or lower in elevation.

        The next spot to look for will be a spot below a hoB.

        If the distance south or lower than wwwh is 10 to-15 miles, there may be only one place that COULD be a hoB. If, on the other hand, the distance is 100 miles, then you could probably find 5 – 10 different hoB locations. You have many more choices, and thus have a MUCH better chance of choosing the WRONG hoB – The greater the distance, the greater the chance of error is all that Vox is saying,

        Once you choose the WRONG hoB, there is no way you are going to find Indulgence. This was all done at your armchair, until you feel you need to put BotG, and find out – no treasure – So, back you go, and pick another hoB – that MAY be the right one this time – or not. I can not speak for Vox, but I think that this is what he meant. Keeping your search area “reasonable” in size will increase your chance of success – JMO – JDA

        • JD,
          Well if I’m missing Vox’s point that wouldn’t be the first time. LOL

          But the process you describe is essentially guessing at succeeding clues based on what you did with the first one WWWH. My point is that this doesn’t sound like the approach F intended. I think you need to solve the clues, not pick a region and start guessing.

          To go one step further, I think it’s entirely likely that at least some of the follow-on clues need to be solved BOG. Not a stanch believer in the total arm-chair solve. I know you differ.

          • Colokid;

            I totally agree with you. Going back to my example – 100 miles – multiple choices for hoB. ABSOLUTELY it should NOT be a throw-the-dart kind of choosing.

            Analyze what each choice offers – if anything. Choose the one that fits the clues, but don’t force it. If the glove don’t fit – choose a mitt that does… or go some place else. JDA

        • JDA, your understanding of what I posted is pretty close to the mark. Thank you.

          Colokid, distance is not the main difficulty at all. It just allows for a much broader and more involved hunt. You can’t simply arrive at a place, follow the canyon to hoB, find the creek near there, and either go up it or not to a single blaze. To me, that’s a rather measly sort of treasure hunt. By contrast, the one we have is truly majestic, IMO.

          The canvas is so broad that unless you work out the ways in which the clue information is secreted in the poem, you have no hope of finding the treasure. You could go off in any one of a thousand directions. So absolute precision is a requirement. Clue solving is not dependent on distance – it’s totally dependent on what the poem reveals.

          • Hi Vox…across the pond, too? FF has truly gone glubal, huh?!

            You wrote:

            “You can’t simply arrive at a place, follow the canyon to hoB, find the creek near there, and either go up it or not to a single blaze. To me, that’s a rather measly sort of treasure hunt. By contrast, the one we have is truly majestic, IMO.”

            Yes you can. If your general solve matches those characteristics in the poem. Why would you think it won’t? That could very well be describing that “I could’ve had a V-8” hit on the head or that special “A-ha!” moment…..

            IMO – it is both.

            Once solved, again IMO – I’ve always thought it sounds like a Sunday drive through the mountains and the poem describes what you will see when on-site for the clues.

            I still think this way, because….as the poem reads…..if you are to read it right now….
            A. It is the most simplist way to read the poem
            B. It is also the most cleverest way to conceal the instructions.

            Now….try combining both methods….and what do you get?…..a masterfully drawn puzzle that can be stated in the most simplistic of ways.

            Good luck.

          • You’re right, Tim. I didn’t express it very well. Obviously, I’m talking about my personal interpretation based on my own experience of the Chase. Yours, and perhaps most, will differ.

            Good luck to you, too!

          • Vox,
            Well I suppose you can see how I got confused. You start off the post talking about whether the clues are ‘bunched’ or not and then later on you meander into whether or not there is more than one of everything (HOB, creeks, Blaze, etc).

            ”You can’t simply arrive at a place, follow the canyon to hoB, find the creek near there, and either go up it or not to a single blaze. To me, that’s a rather measly sort of treasure hunt.”

            Really? The guy puts 1 or 2 million in gold out there for you to find and if the clues aren’t convoluted enough for you you see a need to characterize the Chase as “measly”? Is the objection that you don’t believe in literarily translating the clues into directions or that having just 9 clues just isn’t good enough for you?

        • What I’m seeing in both, and most, examples of canyon is; depth and size… This is a predetermined mind set. As to fenn’s example a mud puddle to an Ant looks like an ocean…
          If the canyon fenn speaks about large and deep? or only by description of what a canyon represents; upward sides to a lower bottom.
          We could say the same about WWH… Such as dam. That’s a big piece of area in almost all man made structure to hold water back flow. But is WWWh something that big or larger? Or can it be a pool size for example?

          What makes the poem difficult [ in part ] is our own perception of what we think things and places should be. I’ll even take it a step further and add; should no clue be of a man made anything, and are of natural features… just by forcing any unknown, or proven distance, could kill and solve right off the bat.

          All the clues could [by description and definitions of the descriptions] be within a 1000’sq area. And yes, still located on the “right map” and/or “GE” if those details can be shown/seen. The idea that the poem is difficult because of the size we think things should be, doesn’t allow for a solve to develop on it’s own… you just made the job harder by your own perception that is must be the way you think it should be.

          That’s an excuse for failure, not a WhatIF possibility.

          This is why I have questioned… what details are on the “right map”

          • Seeker;

            I very much agree. When Forrest said “Canyon down”. What did HE have in mind? Does the “canyon” have steep vertical walls, and a narrow bottom? Or is it possible that Forrest’s “Canyon” has short sloping walls, and the canyon might be a couple (or more) miles wide? Either is possible, and everything in-between. Don’t let your definition of what a “canyon” is get in the way of what Forrest might think a “canyon” is – Well said Seeker – JDA

          • JDA, you make a very good point. People take for granted that Forrest meant that you, the waters, or your search follow the canyon. What if it doesn’t mean that at all? Why does he place “down” at the end – is it simply to scan and provide the rhyme for “Brown”, or could there be another reason as well? What does “down” mean? Maybe there’s more to this instruction than might appear at first glance.

          • JDA,
            I don’t know how every thinks subtle hints help… That’s a long lasting debate. all on it own.
            But one that I think does help is perception… of how fenn might have… hinted that size is an illusion; being, the thumb over Pittsburgh or whatever city it was…A simple story that wouldn’t help get a searcher closer but might help with the clues.

            Sometimes I think the book is way over used by ‘looking for answers’ and not so much ‘suggestions’ on how to go about solving clues. [hence folks seeing clues in pics and drawings, or think warm must be a bathing whole or 10 miles from another book hold the answer to a clue in the first book]… that is too exact for any ‘hint’ or even a clue… Those are answers.

            Now, if that is what the book does, ok… but that is why the book confuses me. I start looking for answers. But imo, I just don’t think the answers are there… I think the answers are in the poem itself.

            But that is all a guess at this point too.

          • To an ant on my computer screen, a lake looks like a puddle. No problem walking around, or over, that.

          • Seeker,

            “I think the answers are in the poem itself.”

            Do you consider that Fenn probably hid the treasure somewhere VERY important to him? If so, do you take that into consideration when you try to solve the clues?

            For me, that is one of the first things I consider when I am trying to figure out if a particular WWWH and HoB would be probable or not. Or if I should scrap the idea.

            Does that make sense?

          • I agree, Seeker. Hints in ttotc book can’t be answers like answers from clues in the poem.

          • HaydukeCC,

            Somewhere among the postings in that last 24 hours alone, I gave examples to what “treasures” might infer.
            The basic idea is, not the contents of the chest, but the place itself. Fenn has even stated he holds the location with high regards and respect. Stated this location is very special to him, said there was no other location even considered, So yep, I have thought about it a lot.

            The word ” with,” as many would think means; he took the chest alone in there “with him”… a logical assumption at first read, lol, or even the first 100 reads.
            But “with” can mean to meet up, or to join.
            In context to fenn’s original plan, as to go and make this location his final resting place… it could be that he “went to be ‘with” what he considers is a lone… where his treasures are.

            So what’s your take on why this location might be important?

          • Seeker,

            One reason I am drawn to this chase, is from my own memories of fly fishing. I spent a considerable amount of my summers in the 80s fishing the Madison, Firehole, and Yellowstone rivers. It was special enough to me that I also want my ashes scattered into one of those rivers.
            With that, there are places in those areas I would consider beyond words. Then there are places that are good fishing, but not that ‘special’. Such as around the Barns Holes, Bakers Hole, lots of stretches below Quake Lake.
            So, as I relate somewhat, I find myself narrowing the areas where clues might fit along with where I consider might be special. I want to explore the Cabin Creek area. I’ve never been up it, but driving through that area, it is beautiful, and might be a place where one would take a break from ‘heavy loads and water high’ fishing to have a lunch rest/nap in solitude. That’s just one idea for an example of how I look at the point I was asking of.
            Do I make sense in how I express it?

          • HaydukeCC –

            You are hitting on something that I think is true.

            Many of these places we discuss here are, well, boring. I am not sure I am allowed to say that about the mighty Baker’s Hole, but it’s true. No one looks back and says I want to rest my bones at Baker’s Hole.

            There have been a ton and a half of searches up by Cabin Creek. If you asked one chaser here she would say she has turned over every rock. Another here would say she is 100% sure the treasure is there.

            Have some fun, make a pot of coffee from pine needles. (Maybe don’t drink it.)

            I cannot remember, in which of Fenn’s stories did he mention making coffee from Pine needles? Anyone know?


          • It makes sense, HaydukeCC in regards to only one part of fenn’s passions. There is also collecting, artifact hunting, animals… the man owned crocks, rescued horse and mules and other animals and other passions.
            Then we have yet, more to consider… he enjoyed flying in the military for 20 years and he bought his own plane. He moved to NM for a reason… if anyone recalls the comment just before everyone went nuts about pinions. He has been on a few board of directors or involved with museums, and archeology… bought his own dig site, and if I’m not mistaken, started an archeology school in WY or financed for the start of. Formed archeology conferences… and on and on.

            Just picking something you like to do and hope that is what the poem is about is ok IF you picked correctly.

          • Seeker, no disagreement there. I will freely acknowledge i am even less than a half-assed searcher for this treasure. IF I can incorporate some searches in conjunction with my regular visits to West Yellowstone, then I am definitely up for exploring gorgeous areas, treasure or not. This Chase adds to my interest if being up in that area, and can make it more fun and exciting in between chasing geysers and wildlife.
            I enjoy your thoughts, thanks.

  52. Can any of you guy’s help me on this one?

    Getting away from the chase for a moment.

    I remember watching a western years ago, I can’t even remember who starred in it, it was so long ago.

    I’m sure that it was about a bunch of outlaws who stole a load of gold bars and hid them somewhere in the mountains, I’m not sure if it was the Rockies.

    However months later when they went back to recover the gold they couldn’t find the spot and so the story goes that the treasure was never found and remains hidden in the mountains to this day.

    The film was based on a true story, and I think but I’m not 100% sure that the value of the gold at that time was about two million dollars.

    It was a film that always intrigued me and do any of you guy’s know the film that I am talking about.

    If so what is the name of the film, was the gold hidden in the Rockies and was the gold ever found?

    I would appreciate your feedback as I would love to see this film again on dvd if I can get it.

    I love my western films

    Ronnie the Scot

  53. One word that is important here is “assume” even though it is not said outright but clearly demonstrated on this blog and other blogs. Here is a good example; most assume that the area around West Yellowstone with all of the warm and hot waters is the place to start. This comes about in the book were F wrote of his summers in WY and holds a lot of memories, so many assume the start is there. Many assume without the facts, which causes misdirection. F doesn’t do that, but the searchers do. Please keep in mind this is most of what I am saying is just an example.

    During my time working as a detective, I prefer an investigator, when people are hiding the truth they deliberately hide the facts and some think a little deeper making things out of character of themselves. Not all things are what they seem, basically it is an assumption until the facts make it true. This can also cause a “what if” which promotes “imagination” that can help in finding the facts. Clues that one has to work with, most always leads to facts that are logically sound.

    Here’s an example; most think that F’s resting place has to be a beautiful or nice place to hide himself and the TC, but F’s cunning he finds a place that he thinks no one will find him, which would be out of his character as others know him. The place he hides is obscure and most assume he wouldn’t do that.

    Fortunately F writes a poem, which in all reality is a map to the spot he hides, I think we all know that. The poem is abstract in a sense but at the same time is truthful. We can be in tight focus when the clues are facts, which they are. I think each step of each clue has to be a fact and not an assumption.

    I think using obscure methods such as cypher’s, numbers, picking letters, etc, is not what F intended. Not all of the searchers understand those obscure things. I believe F intended a level playing field for all and the words in the poem is straight forward, one has to read the poem in order to find the clues which leads to facts. A little imagination causes “what if” that has been demonstrated that children have that some adults loose.

    I’ve taken the poem much like a conversation and standing there with F trying to tell me how to get to a place that is unfamiliar to me. The one thing that is vague is wwwh and from there the directions are clear and factual.

    In different parts of the country the use of certain words have different meanings or different ways of relaying things. F is originally from Texas and words are used or ways of relaying things that are somewhat different in WY, combine the two and where F has been in the country or overseas he picks up different ways of saying things. I did throughout my life. So sometimes we assume things as we understand them, but not the way they are meant.

    All-in-all, listen carefully to the words in the poem, like one is having a conversation and not twists words out the way they are meant. Don’t assume anything and go with the facts. When you have the facts, disprove those facts soundly, if you can’t clearly disprove the facts then they are facts pertaining to the subject at hand. Anything else is an assumption.

    This is my way of approaching the poem. Time to relax and cheers with my drink in hand.

    As always my opinion 🙂

  54. The Call of Distant Places book is not mentioned very frequently…

    Anyone else wonder why Fenners don’t talk about this book much? Its a great read with quality vodka to keep you warm.

    Maybe I missed the discussion since I bought the book a year later than most people.

  55. i think that you can narrow the areas to look by profiling forest.his life has been about flying,selling art,fly fishing and indian ruins.ruling everything else out from the i went alone.

    • Dear Mr. Kingfox:

      I concur with your comments. I do believe it is important to know and understand the author of the poem, in order to interpret it. However, besides flying, art, fishing and all things Indian…..I would add Ancestry, Education (quest for knowledge), Poetry, Valor, Honor and Love of History.

      Getting to know Mr. Fenn, is a little bit like a cartoon I once saw of several people blindfolded holding on to different parts of an Elephant and then asking them to describe the elephant.

      The person holding the tail described something totally different than the one wrapped around his leg, which was wildly different than the fellow being accosted by the trunk, which wasn’t anything like the impression from the guy sitting on his neck.

      You need to see all the parts to understand.

      All above is IMO

      Best regards;


  56. In reply to 9equals9 on January 2, who said:

    “I am privy to a private forum where a searcher has demonstrated precisely how the poem leads to a 10″ location and it is not just two dimensions but three dimensions requiring zero search. The location has not been searched yet, so only the methodology is known and all I can say is it is incredibly ingenious and it is definitely a game changer.”

    Well this is very interesting. Should we all just give up the Chase then? If said searcher has really found the tc location with 10″ precision, and if the methodology was revealed less than about a month ago, I have two questions: 1) why didn’t the methodology discoverer retrieve the treasure last Fall before the snow fell, and 2) if the method was discovered just a few days ago, why not go out and get it right now in the middle of winter, because you have an exact location. Why would a few inches (or feet) of snow hinder you? Take a shovel and go in on snowshoes, on a snowmobile, or charter a helicopter and get it. The reward will be worth the expense and risk as well as the cold. What if some poor fool accidentally stumbles on the treasure location before this person gets out there this Spring? I can already envision the scenario when the discoverer of the precise location gets out there and finds a 10″ empty hole in the wet ground: “Aw dang it !!!

    Or maybe the mystery searcher is a multi millionaire who is only interested in The Thrill of the Chase?

    By the way, can you sign me up for this private forum 9equals9?


    • We now can only presume FF and the searcher know the solution.

      I’m also one to think that now that about 30 days have passed, FF would have also said someone found the box…..if they truly did.

      But then again, I am also thinkning of waiting to let FF know I found the trove, and surprise him with the answer in person….LOL.

      So whether it is there or not, I have a general solve too…..I’ll keep considering mine is better at the results than someone else’s and continue to keep my search alive.



        • 1 dimension – Front to back
          2nd Dimension – Right to left
          3rd Dimension – Up and down

          Go forward five steps – move to the left two steps and then look down, and maybe dig a hole 1 foot deep = 3 dimensions. Sometimes referred to the “X”. “Y” and “Z” axis – in a perspective drawing – JDA

          • Google Earth provides a 3 dimensional view Right- Left – – – Forward and Back – – – elevation – A topo map is only two dimensional – It is flat. Elevation is indicated by the elevation lines, but the map itself it only two dimensional

            Kinda like the difference between a painting and a sculpture. A painting “indicated” depth, by making a road appear to get smaller as it goes back in the painting or a nose “appears” to stick out from the cheeks – With a sculpture you can actually feel that the nose sticks out from the cheeks – JDA

          • JDA…..GET OUT OF MY HEAD!!


            Or more probable….great minds think alike.

            I prefer the latter!

            Fly….now you heard it from two different people.


          • Tim;

            I had to look up “Textual Criticism” – here is what I found:
            “Textual criticism is a branch of textual scholarship, philology, and literary criticism that is concerned with the identification of textual variants in either manuscripts or printed books. Scribes can make alterations when copying manuscripts by hand.[1] Given a manuscript copy, several or many copies, but not the original document, the textual critic might seek to reconstruct the original text (the archetype or autograph) as closely as possible. The same processes can be used to attempt to reconstruct intermediate versions, or recensions, of a document’s transcription history.[2] The objective of the textual critic’s work is a better understanding of the creation and historical transmission of texts. This understanding may lead to the production of a “critical edition” containing a scholarly curated text.

            There are many approaches to textual criticism, notably eclecticism, stemmatics, and copy-text editing. Quantitative techniques are also used to determine the relationships between witnesses to a text, with methods from evolutionary biology (Phylogenetics) appearing effective on a range of traditions.”

            How does how scribes may have made mistakes in transcribing, say the bible, have anything to do with the poem, and how we interpret it? I just do not get the connection.

            I admit I am slow, but I just don’t get the connection – HELP – JDA

          • Hi JDA.

            You asked:

            “How does how scribes may have made mistakes in transcribing, say the bible, have anything to do with the poem, and how we interpret it? I just do not get the connection.”

            Who says anything about errors? Oh wait….you are.

            You misunderstand the philosophy of the techniques. The key aspects of using a technique like this.

            What you see and hear is not what is actual.

            Yes, the Bible is a great example of “pulling the wool over your eyes” – so whoever readsd the Bible cannot see the truth for what it truly is.

            FF did the same but on a much higher level. He concealed the truth within the words he writes. The Bible does not…..no religion does…..UNLESS….you look past the words and understand their meanings.

            What you see and hear is not necessarily what is meant.

            Self takes control again, huh? What questions you ask, what decisions you make, and what do you actually read and see and hear…..all suitable questions related to this hunt. Those who dismiss this will not win the chase. They should stay home.

            This is clear to me……and I now think you see too can see what I say can clearly be defined using textual criticism……..which is in relative form……the dissecting of words to find their true meanings.

            And yep….this is exactly what is required of all of us to determine the final location in the poem. “Read the book, study the poem, re-read the book,, study the poem, etc….etc…..etc…..We know what to do…..so I am doing exactly what FF has asked of me…..well not me personally, I’ve nevver met the man…..but you get my drift.

            As I have stated, this is just a suggestion…..one that is viable…..one that I know helped me better understand the poem and its contents.

            Good luck.

        • Hi Fly!

          Huh? Did I mention something about 3D?

          Can you provide my quote, for context? Oh wait…was that on my list?

          If so……we humans are in 3D, right?

          Okay….GE can be seen in 2D as well. Most maps are 2D, but some maps have topography elevations, that now, with some imagination, you can picture the 2D map to be 3D.

          So now you have GE, 2D and 3D paper maps that you can use to figure out a place higher than 5000 ft and lower than 10200 ft.

          We observe the world in 3D, but in truth, theoretically, there are 11 dimensions of “reality”. Why not apply the multi-level/dimensional/architectual way of looking at the world, as to the poem?

          Widen your view. There is so much in life we miss.

          Good luck.

          • Tim, you lost me on that one. I didn’t say you said anything about 3D. I was referencing McKendrees comment that spoke of 3D.

          • oh….my bad……I missed the name.

            *shy back into a corner with his slurpee*

          • Hey Tim(ZR). With your dimensional-reality-architecture realm of thought process, I have a question to ask of you. Being as all things are inherently symmetrical. Is there any meaning in the value of the word count in the poem- 166 words? Is this random or symmetrical in architecture ?

          • Hi Alt.

            You wrote:

            “Is there any meaning in the value of the word count in the poem- 166 words? Is this random or symmetrical in architecture ?”

            Hmmm…good question. Let me think a minute about your question and apply it to my general solve.

            I do find value in the 166 words in the poem.

            FF already implied that and that the poem is “architectual”.

            Now for my opinion……Symmetrical? No so much. My general solve is linear like FF somewhat stated thatb it will be if we follow the clues. Asymmetrical? Could be based upon perception and analysis, i guess….I don’t twist anything to my liking. No, I dont force fit anything. That was never my intention….we have to marry the poem. To me, being married and all, its a union – a compromise – a solid way forward if you work together, Very similar to the poem and why I initially formed a team.

            For me, I don’t use math or geometry…..or whatever “stegography” is…..although I understood it and that it had the “Bible Code” similarities. I think like others have stated, there could be words pulled out of the poem by letters…..I was able to do it with every single letter in my clue answers……one must figure out the clues first. Even then, I was only able to remove less than half of the words in the poem in order to do this. Coincidencce in my book. If I was able to remove the entire poem with the answers to the clues, then I would have been more excited. That didn[‘ happen. BUT….I also did NOT do it twice, for the duality aspects I think are embedded, so it very well may tell me something new…..who knows….I just didn’t have the patience, especially doing it once took a few hours.

            One of my previous answers were associated to and contained the letter “X”, and since “X” is not in the poem, I abanded that effort just because of that detail.

            Sooooo…does that mean we can eliminate any location with an “X” in the name? Hmmm….I’ve always pondered that……with……maybe we are to look for a place that does contain the letter “X” within it……or……like others have pondered….how do you draw an “X”. All I ever get in my mind….”X” is missing, because “X” marks the spot like all treasure hunts seem to have or imply.

            did that help answer?

          • Tim. Thanks for answering and yes, you gave an answer lol. I also don’t apply any mathematical formula, codes or such. I just read the words as they relate to geography. I just thought within your methods of interest that maybe you would relate the word count of 166 to something, but you do not as you say.

            I don’t work with numbers but I do see them in symmetry.This could be just a natural flow, rather than engineered, that I see in the architecture of the poem. This is within the duality perspective- the 166 word count, stanzas and number of lines . My perspective in what I see this is within being ‘contiguous’ with words being clues-convergence with geography and geometry . The numbers aren’t within or derived by words, but are within the architectural framework of the completed poem . IMO .

            Another way to say it would be- the poem Draws something, a blueprint if you will, but not a map in this case study. IMO . The words can be aligned to on/ place on a map and numbers draw a form. The two communication styles of the poem- the duality. The 166 is the completed form- drawing, (as I see it) that the numbers represent in symmetry.

            All handshaking : stanza count, clue count, line count and word count- symmetry. No math or formulas, just design.

            Just something I noticed, just checking to see if you did also.

            In my opinion.

          • Ya know Alt.

            As I look at the number “166” it could be related.

            Someone recently mentioned “four blazes” – I think OZ did….(???)….anyhow…that isn’t important.

            What I find interesting is if you use Numerology in “1+6+6= 13 = 1+ 3= 4

            Now could four be a vaiable in the poem and mean something. Could be four blazes like the other poster reflected upon.

            I did use the number four after they mentioned it, so if technically you were taking notes, the number “166” MAY have a connection.

            For me….I’ve now added – “look for four blazes along the path I intend to take” to occur on my next BOTG effort. Why? I think the four blazes are set-up at a certain distance interval. Look for one blaze, then keep walking “not far, but too far to way”, and you will find another, and this continues for a total of four blazes, until the final fourth blaze is near the trove.

            Crazy as it seems, it seemed to work very well with my defined distance I use.

            This is also where the number “3” showed up for me another time in my research. Odd as I say it….the number 3 was clear. Which is a prime number unlike the number 9. Although we already know “9” is important.

            Okay, I did use some Math…simple adding….but primarily I used Numerology to come to this point.

            There are scoffers out ther Alt…..who don’t think pseudo-sciences are useful…..be careful in your journey.

          • Hey Tim. Pseudoscience is not my science lol. For this poem exorcize I am very basic in my approach. No complex nor special knowledge is required for solving the poem ,in my opinion. Complexity comes with checking and researching the simple interpretations. Seems odd or oxymoronic but things go more in depth when I am seeking supporting evidence, hoping to achieve confidence to a conclusion. Looking for synergy and symmetry can transition me from my basic poem analogy ,to me being more complex.

            This is where the 166 word count and other noticeable consistencies come into play. To me 166 =12+1 . In numerology the steps lead to validate a 13 or =4. I don’t use numerology in this exorcize but just the basics of math. The anscestor Natuve Americans and all other indigenous peoples of the world used 12+1 geometry. It’s in their art, drawings and construction- it is architecture harmonious with earth science.

            Not pseudoscience but the forgotten science. This is what I mean with the poem. For me, I can see that the Archeologist in FF, he seems to have the awareness of this. This is just an added tool used in awareness creating the poems symmetry. I just look for alignments and this is a way I can check.

            In my opinion.

          • LOL

            Maybe I should’ve ended it with “end of commentary”

            would that be more to your liking?


            It appears you must’ve read it….what did you think of it besides the post length?
            – I notice many like to comment, but never on the actual post. Interesting.

            Good luck.

          • Tim,

            “we already know “9” is important.”

            How do you know that a 9 is important?

          • Tim,

            OK, I expected that would be the answer.
            So yeah, the CLUES are important. And it helps to know that he told that there are 9 of them. With that, is 9 important as a number in any way? I don’t see it being anything other than the quantity of something that does matter. Nor would the number of total words play of any special significance to me, as I personally believe people lose their way in detritus.

            Thanks for replying. 🙂

          • :o)

            See…textual criticism in action.

            You didn’t ask the “right” question at first.

            – 9 clues in the poem
            – 9 sentences in the poem
            – we must solve 9 clues in order to understand 9 locations
            – 9 is divisible by “3” – three times – to become “3”
            + “3” is a magical number

            Okay….you get the point…..you must not be thinking deep enough or researching these things, if you have to ask.

            I’m sorry Hayduke…I won’t give you the answers you seek…I can only point you in the direction to take. You have to make the decisions on where you go from here.

            Although I will answer your questions when asked, it will be done to my discression. I’m not doing the work for you…..that would be silly.

            Use your mind in this game. Really use your mind. Home of Dal is a great place to be……read everything you have not……you’ll find your way.

            Good luck.

          • Tim,

            “you must not be thinking deep enough”

            THAT is quite a presumption, no, for such a cerebral person as you present?

            Perhaps I offered you some line… and let you run with it.

            As an aside, I am more playful than mean, so if one were to wonder how to take anything I post, pick the one where you would see me smiling.

          • Presumption on my part? I agree…..it is a guess….an opinion….just an observation on how you wrote your post………because in truth, I do not know how deep you are thinking or even if you consider yourself a deep thinker.

            I just think no matter what level you are at….you should dig deeper into your thoughts. I think you may be onto something.

            clearly you didn’t take my suggestion that way.

            Good luck.

      • Tim,
        It always seems that someone is one step ahead of me, and in this case that’s you. I never thought about the possibility of a delayed report to or from Fenn about finding the box. But the way the post that I refer to was written makes it sound like the discovery is pending and may not take place for some time, and maybe not even by said person.

    • McKendree;

      You ask some interesting questions.
      “1) why didn’t the methodology discoverer retrieve the treasure last Fall before the snow fell,?”

      Maybe the discoverer had not yet formulated the exact location yet.

      .”2) if the method was discovered just a few days ago, why not go out and get it right now in the middle of winter, because you have an exact location.”

      Forrest has said that “The treasure is wet.” If it WAS wet in the Summer and Fall, it is probably frozen in by now. As far as I know, the temp is below freezing in almost all parts of the Rockies by now – certainly at night.

      “Why would a few inches (or feet) of snow hinder you? Take a shovel and go in on snowshoes,”

      Assuming you are young enough, agile enough or even know how to snowshoe.

      “…on a snowmobile,”

      Unless the “trail” leading to where it is is too steep, too narrow, or has too many switch-backs for a snowmobile to go.

      “…or charter a helicopter and get it. The reward will be worth the expense and risk as well as the cold.”

      Would you rent a helicopter to fly you into a place that you only suspected the treasure lies? Let’s say that you send Forrest your solve, and Forrest slaps his head and declares – At last, someone figured it out. Will Forrest then email that person back affirming that YOU have solved it – Not likely, since Forrest has said that he will not help anyone directly. If it were me, I can not afford to take that risk – I just do not have that kind of money. Maybe you do.

      “What if some poor fool accidentally stumbles on the treasure location before this person gets out there this Spring?”

      Is that likely? Forrest has said that no one will stumble on it. Only the person who has precisely followed all of the clues is going to find it. If I think I am that close, I am going to tell Forrest all about it – Then Forrest will again slap his head and say, Now Two people have figured it out.

      “I can already envision the scenario when the discoverer of the precise location gets out there and finds a 10″ empty hole in the wet ground: “Aw dang it !!!”

      Again, from my perspective – not likely – but what do I know? NADA – JDA

  57. A correction in my post a short time earlier: In the second paragraph, the phrase “and if the methodology was revealed less than about a month ago” is more correctly stated as “more than a month ago”. The reason being that if it was only “discovered” in the previous days or weeks, then the person responsible would not have had time yet to mount a ground check, even if he or she intends to do so this winter.

  58. Hi all and Happy New Year,

    Thought I’d throw this question out to the masses…

    Does a large rock (boulder) split all the way through to the ground classify as a ‘Scant’?

    • Question? Are the two halves still adjacent to each other? If they are, I would say no.

      If one side has fallen over, and the single standing boulder has a relatively flat side, I would say yes – JMO – JDA

      • thanks JDA — one side has tipped away from the other on an angle from when it split – it looks like it had split a long time ago when it had fallen from a mountain (when it landed)

      • James,

        When you first read, “But tarry scant with marvel gaze”, what was your first thought about what the line meant? Or did you look up tarry and then scant? My bet the way you read it and understood it is the way to go. Now if you didn’t understand the words and had to look it up, it creates a lot of rabbit holes. Remember F doesn’t like dictionaries much to look up words.

        Just say’n

        • CharlieM;

          You say, ” Remember F doesn’t like dictionaries much to look up words.” This is a bit misleading – Forrest doesn’t like dictionaries, because he finds Google much easier.

          Forreat LOVES words – here is one quote, among many:

          “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem, it looks like just simple words there, but I guarantee you, I worked on that thing … I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

          Forrest talks about how he looked up words, changed words and rebooted.

          Forrest is the MASTER wordsmith in my estimation. He appears to LOVE using words in ways that are not normally accepted or used.

          All my opinion, and you have yours, just PLEASE do not mislead – JDA

          • JDA,

            On page 4 of TTOTC paragraph 4, F wrote, “I tend to use words that aren’t in the dictionary, and others are, I bend a little.” This shows “I believe”, that he does not much care to use the dictionary but meets in the middle with those that are on occasion.

            How would you interpret that sentence?

          • Read seeker’s post below yours. I think that that pretty well sums up what I would say –
            Add this quote, and I think you know how Forrest feels:
            , “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – STUDY every line EVERY WORD Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f JDA

          • P.S. How can you STUDY every Word, without using a dictionary of some kind? – To me the answer is obvious – You CAN’T


          • ….then JDA……it doesn’t appear you are using your imagination completely…..and thus if you have already discarded it…..your logic side of the mind is more active.

            You may want to tone that down a bit to equal and balance the imagination.


            Good luck to you sir.

          • Tim;

            We are talking about whether Forre3st like to use dictionaries or not. How do you get from that discussion that I am not using my imagination?

            .and thus if you have already discarded it… When did I indicate that I have discarded my imagination??? Have I missed something???

            I may want to tone down my logic side??? Where are you getting this C**p? All from a discussion as to whether Forrest like dictionaries or not??? Please explain – JDA

          • Hi JDA.

            You wrote:

            on January 5, 2018 at 2:38 pm said:
            P.S. How can you STUDY every Word, without using a dictionary of some kind? – To me the answer is obvious – You CAN’T


            “Can’t” / cannot – conclusive answer.

            I disagree with either your premise or your conclusion – in that one CAN study a word without using a dictionary of any kind.

            In martial arts, which I used to participate in for over 8 years, I would have to study words in order to understand their relationship to movement of my hands or legs or feet. Each word was an equal movement of a body part.

            I then could hear the word and know what I did or had to do.

            So in truth, you can study any word, if you use the right technique and/or with the conjunction of textual criticism.

            Good test of your skills……using textual criticism…….and studying a word without using a dictionary….

            Listen to the POTUS speaking, but listen closely to the words he uses and the conjuction of them together and the final conclusion of his speech.
            – You’ll see misdirection or unanswered statements throughout.
            – You’ll see diversion and “shiney objects appear”

            Apparently, even body language can be used to help studying words being said.

            Think deeper JDA! :o)

            You CAN DO ITTTTT!!


          • Well Tim;

            If I have to learn martial arts in order to solve the poem, tell that to Forrest who wrote the poem, who, to the best of my knowlege (no d) never studied martial arts, then I might as well give up.

            You published a list of 15 or so “Studies” that you use, and now comes Martial Arts. I hope that it all works out for you – It is beyond me, and what I THINK Forrest had in mind.

            Forrest said to STUDY every word – I follow his directions – I do not feel that I must “become one” with each and every one of the 166 words that he used, I just need to understand which, of many, definitions I feel Forrest wants me to use. If you do, and it works for you – YEA for you. Just because others do not use YOUR process does not mean that they are not using their imagination. You know almost nothing about what process or methods I use. If putting down others that do not use your methods is what “The Tibetan or Egyptian books of the dead” and Martial Arts has taught you, I am glad that I am just an ignorant old fool. Good Night – JDA

          • Whoa JDA.

            please don’t get frustrated at me if something I said you didn’t think of or because I poked a hole in a thought out solution of yours.

            Oh….I will continue to poke holes in a solve If I see there is one….it helps to fortify my own.

            And furthermore, not once have I told anyone to use my techniques, but I have only stated that they are useful….even if they may fall into the specialized knowledge category or “unique” in your words.

            For me, that is a plus. I’m sorry if you think I judged your solution in a manner that you weren’t used to.

            Persnally, your solve is way out of my league, and I intend to keep it that way.

            You go with it and determine for yourself if it works. I’ll never know, huh?

            Thanks for responding.

            Good night to you as well.

          • Tim you said, “please don’t get frustrated at me if something I said you didn’t think of …”
            Tiim, your comments about my not using my imagination had nothing to do with anything you had said – You were not even a part of the discussion.

            And you continue, “or because I poked a hole in a thought out solution of yours.”

            We were discussing Forrest’s use, or non use of dictionaries. Absolutely NOTHING was said about any solution of mine.

            IF I post something about my solve, or my way of thinking – Fire Away – I am open to that. To jump in the middle of a discussion, that you had had no part in, and then to criticize me for not having enough imagination, when imagination had NOTHING to do with the discussion – despite your interpretation that STUDY of words might involve martial arts.

            IF that was the point you wanted to make – make it. Say – “It is my experience that through the study of martial arts, one can study words etc.”

            Don’t just jump in and say that I need to use less logic and use more imagination. Get real my friend.

            P.s. You are not the only person on the planet who has read “The Tibetan Book of the Dead”, or practiced some form of Buddhism. I happen to be a Buddhist who has practiced my faith for over 50 years – But that is neither here nor there. PEACE my brother.

            Be less inclined to judge, and you be less judged. Karma is a powerful force. One tends to get back what they serve – Just a thought – JDA

          • Hi JDA.

            I apologize if I upset you. I did not mean that to occur.

            1. There are no private conversations on the blog, unless through email. I think you and I both realize this.

            2. I interject with direct thoughts. my thought equal “My Truth”. I own my words and never regret using them. Now if you didn’t like the way I said them, as it was clear, then okay, speak up – correct me, etc. But you know as well as I do, I post ot give others suggestions to think of….THAT IS ALL.

            If you want to make it as if I am judging you, you are very wrong. I’m tyrying to help think things through.

            Every thing I post is ONLY ABOUT THINKING!!

            I will continue to poke holes in any theory I THINK is not valid.

            This is a game that we all have placed wild theories upon. Mine is probably the wildest of every other. I know it is wilder than yours – based upon my findings and how yours plays out.

            Why do you discard or denounce my thinking skills?

            BTW – I do have karma in my life all good. I also use it for “the good” in the world. I use it to survive. I use it to solve this darn puzzle. It is part of my life.

            Oh yeah… I never said I was Hindu or affiliated to any religion.

            Religion is man-made. I don’t subscribe to any.

            Good luck and I hope you accept my apology – there was no harm intended.


          • Tim;

            Apology accepted –

            P.S. Buddhism is NOT Hindu – Two entirely different religions and trains of thought. Just in case you were interested – Good luck in your pursuits
            – good luck if you get to make that third trip – JDA

          • :O)

            Buddhist, Hindu, Christian, Jewish, Coptic, Baptist, Orthodox Jew or Christian, etc…..etc…..etc……the list goes on and on. Names to keep people separated and not in unity.

            All have similarities in belief, people just prefer to stay separate and exclusive.

            I’m so glad FF didn’t do that with the poem.

            He removed those obstacles that would not allow inclusiveness and/or a much different awareness.

            I understand the reason why his church is the mountains. and it really has nothing to do with religious values or beliefs.

            We all have a church we “go to”. But truly, it is YOU who have to make the effort to arrive at that church. It will be YOU who prays or hopes or wishes in a church.

            Your Self is the church FF expects to see in the mountains.

            Cheers and good luck to us.

        • “Dear Mr. Fenn,
          The definitions of words seem to interest you. What dictionary, and year of dictionary, do you use for looking up words? ~ wordsmith”
          “Interesting that you would ask that Mr./Mz Wordsmith.
          I don’t use dictionaries anymore. I just type the word in Google for a faster response. It’s fun to make up words and play with different spellings. When someone calls me out after noticing the corruption of a word I use, I just smile, especially when I say something that in my mind is correct but in an academic sense it’s a horrible malfunction.
          For instance, emblazoned upon some of the bronze bells I’ve buried are the words, “Imagination is more important than knowlege.” If I had spelled that last word correctly it would not have had the profundity of meaning I wanted. To misspell the word emphasized my point that having knowledge is, in fact, not as important as being resourceful. Also, when I make a mistake through ignorance that ploy gives me a degree of deniability that I routinely need.

          Now I will test you Wordsmith. Write down the full definition of the word “several.” Then Google it and learn that many of us don’t fully understand some of the words we use every day.f

          SFpodcast. apporx 100 min. mark.
          “I looked up words and definitions words and changed them, went back and rebooted… it [the poem] turned out exactly like I wanted…”

        • I go by what F wrote in the book, these are my first impressions as there are a lot of AFT comments since then, the amount is huge to take in. I’d rather be on a blog and learn from there.

          🙂 So, I made unintentional misstep, I’m not up to date as you long-timers are.

          I like how Seeker responded, right to the point!

  59. Zap –

    I was responding to your comment after sparrow used your technique to call me a name. right?

    You said – had I been paying attention to you I would know what the keyword is. My reading of your posts has absolutely nothing to do with Fenn’s keyword right?

    I guess what you mean to say is that if I am looking for what the keyword is AND I believe you have found it, I can read your comments to retrieve it. That’s true. You just don’t like that I don’t agree with you.

    I think it’s odd for you to code the keyword here. If you just said the keyword for the rest of us dummies than we would be more of a threat than the smart people who figured it out when you coded it.?? How does that work???

    If you want to say what you think the keyword is that would be well received by some chasers. You don’t because you are afraid of hearing me, or whoever, tell you that you are wrong.

    I am of the opinion that doing so would more you closer to the treasure than you are without doing so.

    I am not vacillating. You have it figured out AND could not be more wrong at the same time. I explained how in one of my comments.


    • Greetings Lug – re: “I think it’s odd for you to code the keyword here,” I mostly did it for my amusement, and to mimic what Forrest has done 100+ times (IMO, naturally). If people aren’t finding it in Forrest’s communications, it’s not like my one instance is going to make the difference.

      I know you’d like to think that the reason I won’t divulge my keyword is out of some fear of embarrassment that you or others would take me to task, but that just wouldn’t happen. I’m a ruthless self-critic. Instead, what would happen is people would say “Crap, he’s right. How did we miss it?” That is, except for the quiet searchers who figured it out years before me. They’d be saying, “Crap, why did he give away the farm?” New Mexico tourism probably wouldn’t be too happy with me either.

      • Zap – did you find one of the four keys? Congratulations if you did! Remember ff said several were in tight focus with a word that was key, but he didn’t mention the total count of keys to anyone (at least that I have heard).

        That leaves only three more to go!

        They get progressively harder but open up new information with each one. IMO

          • ff never quantified how many there were – he only mentioned one and that several people were in tight focus with it. He never mentioned the remaining three that I know of, but they are progressively more difficult. IMO

          • Good post Oz.

            “four blazes” must’ve clicked something for me, because that information actually gave me some additional details that relate to my general solve – even though I wasn’t even looking at that direction or pondering a multiple blaze theory. My blaze is one, but marked with multiples of the same blaze – like the old trails were with cairns (still are today). Now….will it be a true fact?

            Interesting it will be if this pans out to be correct when I finally go BOTG.

            Good luck.

          • Good Luck to you too Tim. Some of you have to watch out for whiplash injuries for quickly looking down so many times out there. 🙂

          • Hi Oz.

            Not if the blaze is at eye level, in which I now think.

            Thanks for responding and good luck to you as well!

        • Hi again Strawshadow.

          I disagee.

          “verbal communications”
          – the speaking of words from an individual
          – the poem has been spoken by FF

          I think the key word is in the poem.

          But – I just added something that doesn’t make your statement completely true.

          That is how we can eliminate and deduce paths and rabbit holes.

          Good luck.

          • You shouldn’t have added anything to my true statement, IMO, which is something I think you forgot. Tim did I read that you have never been botg? Just curious.

          • Hi Strawshadow.

            I’ve been BOTG twice in the past 5 years. My wife allowed me a budget of $3500.00 5 yrs ago – towards this lifelong dream adventure and then I have to stop. I agreed.

            I’ve spent $2400.00 – so I am down to $1100.00….actually I’ll spend $1200.00 on my next trip, because that is what the previous two trips cost on avg.

            So, I have one more try at this……and thus, I have made every effort to make “3 times is a charm” happen to me. Literally I am willing it to happen. Can youdo this technique?

            If you have read any of my posts…..I stated that Lady Luck has been at my side for many years, and now I finally get to prove to the world how lucky of a guy I am.

            The ULTIMATE PRIZE, in many ways, is just waiting for us to solve the puzzle.

            Bragging rights for ALL OF HISTORY!! What a prize that could be!

            If my techniques work, then I will be able to also show many people in the world how the power of thought and the union of how minds have helped overcome the most difficult situation.

            This is an opportunity for me to show many people in the world – to become aware of a world that they only scoff at.

            FF knows of this world…..I can see it in his poem. That is why I was drawn to it.

            Many refute this thinking….so be it. IMO – they will be surprised when the solve is completed…..it will be an “a-ha moment” and then change the world yet again.

            Good luck.

            Pay no attention to the crazy man behind the curtain……he really is just a plain old guy with a passion for peace and light!


          • You don’t think I should’ve added another viable answer?

            Why not? Does it make the path more misleading?

            It sure does. But it also speaks in truth.

            To solve the poem, you must venture into those zones that refute and cause discourse. Many will not, because they want to “be sure they are right”.

            If one does not, you will never knowyou are wrong.

            I chose to be know if I am wrong first, before going down a path I know I am already right.

            Those are personal questions that many refuse to acknowlege and accept as fact and their own truth.

            Defining yourself is just as hard at defining the answers to the poem.

            Good luck – and no disrespect is ever meant in my post.

            Read them with a rational mind for the most honest and direct answers to the questions you ask. Use textual criticism when you read them…..and you will see the answer is right there.

            I read a quote once that involved how we see, hear and understand art – in any of its form – including poetry. It had to do with……..what our minds see, is not actually what you are seeing, because of how the neurons interpret what you may see or hear differently for even a split second, and can give an even more “visualization” of what is being seen or heard.

            I think most musicians can “feel” me with this concept – as they “live” for the music. It’s in the music we play and share – in order to give back to the world something from our world.

            Can you “feel” me and my thoughts?



        • Forrest Fenn on February 18, 2016 at 2:02 pm said:
          Spoon, “If person had the correct GPS coordinates they could find the chest.” Physics says this has to be true. How can it not be? The key word here is “correct.”

          spallies on February 18, 2016 at 2:57 pm said:
          Forrest you said…
          “If person had the correct GPS coordinates they could find the chest.” Physics says this has to be true. How can it not be? The key word here is “correct.” Logically, yes… but wouldn’t that “distract you from the poem”
          Forrest Fenn on February 18, 2016 at 2:59 pm said: Yes it would. F

          Forrest is explaining this. He would be the one that is “correct”.

          “A little of me is also in the box”. Is he talking about the key?

          A word that is key, again, has only two words that make this statement true. The word “that”, or the word “key”.
          Either the word “that” is a key in solving something or whatever (searchers or clues), are in tight focus with the ‘key”. (a word that is key, IS KEY). stop defining ‘key” to fit your solve! And yes, you are doing just that, proof, replace the word “key’ with any other word. What then would you say the word is that he is talking about? Hmmmm, A word that is “lake”. A word that is “car”. A word that is “omgthereisnomagicword”.
          You would then think that this supposed word is one of those words. Just because he uses the word “key”, lol, everyone starts throwing out some imaginary words. Because it fits there force fit solution.

          Some are in tight focus with the “key”, the “key”, is Forrest Fenn.
          A little of himself is in the box- the “key”.
          The “key” is correct, it is Forrest Fenn.

          The only other thing is the word “that” is (now you can define the word “key), the word “that” is key to solving some part of whatever it is you need to solve. Forrest has never said there is a “keyword”, if there was a “keyword” he would have said “keyword” not “a word that is key”.
          Some are in tight focus with a “keyword”. If this was the case, then yea, you all would be right in all your guesses. That is not the case. Sorry to be the bearer of bad news, but, unless you come up with how either the “key” or the word “that” are important, YOU ARE WRONG. I wouldn’t say people are wrong unless just joking around, but in this case, lol, think about it.
          Also, the key can be found in the poem, the word “that” is also in the poem. At least, if you are going to continue to guess about a (I want to say “keyword”,lol, anyway, make sure it’s IN THE POEM. His poem is his communication, come on…

      • Greetings Zap –

        So, Forrest says we only need the poem, but he has gone and provided you, and maybe a handful of others, with hints that confirm a Keyword more than 100 times. I understand that you believe that.

        I have an unrelated question for you. I believe you to be person who notes such things and maybe records them somewhere.

        How may times has Forrest in the Thrill of the Chase, the Poem, the Scrapbooks and his ATF comments/interviews referenced buffalo?

        Happy Counting!

        • If you “Tarryscant” Buffalo – The word comes up 36 times. If you look in JCM’s documents, the word only comes up twice. “Buffalo Cowboys” in TTOTC – the story about lassoing Cody is one story, and in TFTW there is at least one story about Forrest walking near a group of Buffalo that were bedded down. Why the interest in Buffalo? Just askin’ JDA

          • JD –

            It’s a matter of whether something often referred to is a hint or just a pattern in the man’s life unrelated to this hunt.

            But Zap won’t bite.


          • One thing I like about the chase is how words can be so far out, and still be honest in meanings..
            Buffalo in one respect mean to fool someone… Ha! I think Tarry Scant has done just that… no not that Tarry Scant the other one.

          • Because there is a reference to Cody in the woods story nearby indulgence….IMO

      • Zap,’“Crap, he’s right. How did we miss it?” That is, except for the quiet searchers who figured it out years before me. They’d be saying, “Crap, why did he give away the farm?” New Mexico tourism probably wouldn’t be too happy with me either.’

        Ok I understand folks wanting to keep a lid on what they hope is correct… I don’t blame anyone for thinking that… But I’m also my own ruthless critic… If you and others have figured this out; this word that is key, that will make all crap out… where’s the beef? I mean, chest… It apparently hasn’t done anything for anyone who thinks they have it.

        So, two thing should click the light switch into the ON position… the word isn’t as strong as we hope it is, or Ya just don’t have the correct word. IF we add the correct method of working the poem into this equations… where’s the beef? I mean chest.

        Are ya going to really sit there and say; I have the method and the keyword and all would say Holly Gotham Batman… the Joker as it all figured out? IF that is the way you really feel… Thor’s hammer couldn’t stop me from going to the hidey spot, I’d would make Ironman into scrap metal, I’d Kick the hulk’s butt, and take Captain America shield and demote him to corporeal… go get the chest, and tarry scant away with the Black Widow.

        • Seeker: this word (again assuming it’s right) is only used for WWWH. As you know, many people have apparently figured out WWWH — some of them quite some time ago. Having WWWH is clearly not enough to figure out where the chest is, otherwise it would have been found over 5 years ago.

        • I think the word is confusion. That seems to be the result with the search community trying to make sense of the statements made by, or attributed,to Forrest after the publication of the poem.

        • That ain’t happening any time soon Seeker…
          Zap has been talkin’ this game for quite some time and NOTHING has come of it. Personally…I do wish he or one of the other surefires here would actually be right. But…I don’t think that’s happening either. As a calming disclaimer…if your name wasn’t mentioned…don’t assume anything.

          • Ya talkin about me bud!?

            I was being very serious with Zap. And, unfortunately [ I don’t know what else to call it ] the excuse comes following the claim. It’s onlt for wwwh of the clues get harder as you progress thru the poem of you need hoB because it’s more important than wwwh or we can skip clues and drive by them and on and on.

            Except if I was to post fenn saying, the clues get easier or we need to nail down wwh or we have nothing and stay home, or if you can figure out first few clue you can go to the chest.. folks get a little testy, so I won’t say it.

          • I don’t know what to tell you, Seeker. Fact #1: people have figured out WWWH a long time ago. Fact #2: in all likelihood, the chest is still out there waiting to be found. You seem to be suggesting it’s a slam dunk to figure out where the chest is if you have WWWH, and yet here we are many years later. What’s your explanation for that? Why are people solving the first 2 clues and walking (or going) past the other 7?

            You are hanging your hat on your interpretation of a single statement uttered by Forrest in 2013 that the clues “get progressively easier after you discover where the first clue is.” Easier does not mean easy. Given how few people out of tens of thousands have figured out Forrest’s WWWH, I think it’s a mistake to conclude that it’s a cake walk after you nail down that first clue. What if the skill set(s) needed for later clues are quite different from the ones needed to decipher the first?

          • Zap ‘What’s your explanation for that?’

            They didn’t know… Sure fenn said the clues were deciphered, figured out, solved, But no one supposedly knew they did.

            Ok that’s my explanation… what’s yours?
            The comments I talked about but didn’t want to say have been stated by fenn over the years… clues get easier… not just one, but a few times. If you don’t know them all or most, not my problem if you only know of one.
            The guy who created this tells us we need to nail down that first clue or “stay home”… without it you have nothing… does lightening need to strike for that comment to be truthful.

            You said ‘ Easier does not mean easy. ‘ Well, sure it does… E.A.S.Y or IER. It’s in the words themselves, they are synonyms, Both as adjective and adverb mean the same thing!!!

            But ya never heard me call this challenge a cake walk… that is what you seem to be imply with your comment “Crap, he’s right. How did we miss it?” That is, except for the quiet searchers who figured it out years before me. They’d be saying, “Crap, why did he give away the farm?” New Mexico tourism probably wouldn’t be too happy with me either.’

            If the word that is key is such a head banger… why didn’t that help those who decipher any clues thus far -?- On site, and walking by every thing that the poem represents and the chest. Ha! Big whoop!… you and maybe some others have the word that is key… Where’s the beef, I mean chest.

            But in all honest, when anyone says things like; ‘You are hanging your hat on your interpretation of a single statement uttered by Forrest ‘
            Again, it’s not a stand alone comment… but it begs the question, why do you bother reading anything the man says if all you do is pick and choose certain comments and dismiss the others or make them less of a value because he may have said it once or twice…?

            ~”WWH is not a Dam”
            Dam… I guess we can just skip that as well, he only said that once as well.

          • Seeker: well, then we disagree at the most basic level. I say the searchers who solved WWWH absolutely knew it. They nailed it down. They deciphered it. They figured it out. Choose your verb, or let Forrest choose for you. How you can seriously think “easier” means easy is beyond me. Climbing Everest is “easier” than climbing K2.

          • Hi zap.

            IMO – i think the “anonymous” searchers were lucky.

            They probably mentioned the starting point to FF, but I thi nk they didn’t realize the importance of the place – because they literally “didn’t figure out the clue” – just happened to be there for the chase, let FF know, and thus, we have the response FF gave publicly.

            That souonds plausible – with a little imagination thrown in.

            Maybe their second and third or more trips to the place – they then were stuck.


          • Zap,
            Easy vs. easier in the idea of “advancement” is the same… not the idea of the start.
            When fenn said [ paraphrasing because I’m tired of having to look up what has been posted uncountable times ] the clues get easier… it means as you advance from one to another…
            Layman’s term; Things should start to pop one after the other. I just don’t know how you can disagree with me, I’m not saying it … fenn is the one who says these things…

            A guy named butch left the challenge when fenn said wwh is not a dam, cry like a little girl saying fenn was misleading us all. Others whine that fenn didn’t mean ‘in water’ when he stated ‘not under water’ { i think the answer was clever as to not mean buried below river bottom, imo }
            Fenn answered a question about the comment of a flashlight and a sandwich, saying, they certainly are not clues… yet some either didn’t read it of ignore it.

            When the guy says the clue get easier as we progress through them… why the heck shouldn’t I believe it?

            When he says folks deciphered clue by telling him what he knew where the clue… wouldn’t he be the best to judge of who “knew” anything? We have no idea what the e-mails stated.

            What part of NO don’t you understand?… The N or the O… fenn said they didn’t NO { kNOw }.
            But you claim ~ ‘ I say the searchers who solved WWWH absolutely knew it. They nailed it down. They deciphered it. They figured it out…’

            Are you so fixated on your theory that you won’t even acknowledge what he says anymore?
            That is a perfect example of: ignorance is bliss.

          • “Easy vs. easier in the idea of “advancement” is the same”

            I wouldn’t assume that. If not that many searchers have successfully solved the first clue, then it must be a long ways from what the word “easy” represents. That the following clues are easier, does NOT mean they would fall under the definition of “easy”, IMO.

            Using the Everest example, which I loved… the Khumbu Icefall may be easier than the Hillary Steps, yet alas…


          • HaydukeCC,
            I get the idea that this is not an easy solve, and I understand that easy is not to mean simple… but meant as in progress from the first few clues being the hardest… It’s really apples and oranges at this point.

            On the other hand, climbing a mountain vs. another climb analogy/comparison is a physical task compared to this challenge, as more a mental task.
            Again, apples and oranges… but we have been told “Imagination” is a big part of understanding, told “It’s not a matter of trying, it a matter of thinking…” Told the one who can best “adjust” will figure out this blueprint….

            But even as I repeat fenn’s quotes, suggestion, advise, I know some one will come back and say something against what those imply, or say the reason it gets harder because the distance between clue get greater or something.

            I’m simply remind folks, like I did with Zap, what was stated by the one who created this… not what “I” hope things should be.

          • Seeker, you are not alone in your thought. I just don’t get f saying ‘the” blaze but yet, up pops 4-5 blazes in a solve. Guessing will get you nothing but yet, it’s a guess fest. It no longer does any good to quote what f has said, because it just doesn’t fit that particular solve. And, given that some have spent endless hours on that solve, it’s easier for them to dismiss what f has said. If not, what a waist of time, right?
            Going back to the drawing board sucks, some may even quit, and before going back to said drawing board, they will find any way to show that they do not need to. These are the ones that will quit the chase when they find out they are wrong. When they realize that they have been chasing with blinders on, some fully blindfolded, it’s just too much. Maybe they think that solving this thing will prove their intelligence, when solving this does no such thing. ‘The greatest mistake of human endeavor is”…. yadda…..yadda…yadda….

            I guess to some, it is just to overwhelming for them to know they are just as dumb as the rest of us. Lol, I would bet you that there are still those out there that think the chest is underwater, or in Idaho, lol, you gotta love this chase, if for anything, the comedic value alone. I thought we learned from our failures. Do people actually “one-and-done” things and succeed? I guess we can throw out “learn from your mistakes”.
            I can’t wait to go BOTG and find nothing, I get to start on something totally new then, the chase will keep going. Then again, I’m probably not wrong, will find the thing, and it will be all over, lol. How many times can I type, lol, in one post…
            Keep going Seeker, you’re on a mini roll as of late. Vox even has you on a fence, just remember what happened to Humpty, and he had a wall. Oww, my neck…

          • One thing I have noticed in my short time perusing the posts here, is that sometimes people quote Fenn along with their own interpretation of said quote, making minimal distinction between the two.

            Does anyone else observe that?

          • Hi Hayduke.

            If I were you…I would not depend upon any quote supplied on the hoD, unless you have verified it yourself.

            Lots of paraphrasing.

            Shoot I do….BECAUSE – I’m like others, why do I need to keep rehashing out a quote by Forrest. I read it, others have read it, so they can devise their own thoughts on what it means. Sheez…that is common sense.

            So now…I will try to paraphrase FF with my best understanding of the words spoken, but will justify my way of thinking with a portion of or the whole of the quote, in order to express the point I am writing.

            Facts mean a lot to me and to this hunt….many are not following the facts.

            My suggestion in your researching…..look for the facts, you will be better suited. Then add the imagination of how FF would use those facts. Eventually you will elimate many WWWH….thus helping you determine a viable BOTG effort.

            Well, okay, to make it clear for others, that worked for me. This may not for you. But I encourage you to try it out…..it is an interesting path of adventure…..even though you will end up in many rabbit holes……the facts you find will stay with you for a long time.

            Cheers and good luck.

          • Tim’

            Do you mind if I take a critical look at your response?

            You say,”They probably mentioned the starting point to FF, but I thi nk they didn’t realize the importance of the place –

            I can agree with this part. I have figured out a location from the clues, but it took me quite some time to figure out why a spot was important to Forrest.

            “because they literally “didn’t figure out the clue” – just happened to be there for the chase, …”

            This makes absolutely no sense to me and I see no logic in your statement, Why would someone be at a particular spot, and were there because of the chase, and yet “didn’t figure out the clue.”

            If they were at a spot – any spot – and were every-day visitors, I can see where they “didn’t figure out the clue.” But, you specify that they were at this spot “because of the chase.” Can you please explain your logic in coupling these two disparate items?

            Even with a little imagination thrown in, I can not see the logic – HELP??? JDA

            let FF know, and thus, we have the response FF gave publicly.

            That souonds plausible – with a little imagination thrown in.

          • Hi JDA.

            Of course you can be critical of what I say…..I encouraged it many years ago. Very few are.

            In fact, be very critical of my thinking…..because I will of yours.

            And in turn, I expect you to be critical of your own workings of the poem. I am of mine.

            “Being there for the chase, but not realizing it is a startiing point.”
            – Yes – “visitors” maybe.
            – Maybe the seekers had their starting point somewhere else, and just happened to pass the correct WWWh starting point without realizing that it was where they should have began…..this could have happened on their way to their next clue…let’s say clue #5….(just saying a clue number)….

            So there may be no real reference to what I just said, because this is only theorized.

            But, I do think this clearly answers your question:

            “If they were at a spot – any spot – and were every-day visitors, I can see where they “didn’t figure out the clue.” But, you specify that they were at this spot “because of the chase.” Can you please explain your logic in coupling these two disparate items?”

            As you can see….my theory is logical, plausible, fits the parameters of all quotes, and even allows the seeker to configure a certain parameter to work with after hearing the quote.

            These questions I have already asked myself after I heard FF say this.
            – How, if they were 200’/500′, did they do this?
            – Where were they that he would have said this in association to?
            – Is it a place where FF is familar with, visited, knows in heart and soul?
            – Is it a special place? Why?
            – Does it meet all of his quotes?
            – Can it be a part of the poem? Embedded into it in some way?

            How many more questions do you need to ask? I really don’t know.

            Now times this by nine clues.

            How long do you THINK you can actually play a game that has so many variables? I committed myself to almost 5 years now….how many more, who knows.

            How well can you think JDA? Just how well do you know your Self that you didnt miss a key question that wouold give you a direct clue answer?

            Can you match your wits with the Game Master?

            We will see the final solve eventually…or not.

            But IMO….if you can answer yes to every one of these and probably many more – for each of the nine clues, then you may just have a legitimate solve on your hands.


            Oh yeah…..”Be the chest!”

            Good luck to you sir. Good luck to us.

          • Tim;

            Basically, you said, “Can I answer “YES” to your several questions – and probably more?” – The answer is “YES” – without reservation. – JDA

          • JDA
            I know you probably do not buy in to the theory that wwwh is close to hoB. But, would you share what your take is on what the nuts and bolts of that theory is and why those who believe it, would. I was hoping to hear your take on that.

          • Tim,

            “My suggestion in your researching…..look for the facts, you will be better suited. Then add the imagination of how FF would use those facts.”

            I agree.
            What I have done for my own organization is created a group on Facebook with my and my daughter as the only members (chuckle). I copy quotes to a post, then make my own thoughts in posts under them.

            I also copy other things that stick out to me from other people, and paste the links.

          • No on Facebook…..This a a few other websites are probably my only solcial media interaction.

            Sideshow Collectibles anyone?

            just rambling…..way off topic!!


          • Fly Fishin’

            You are correct, I do not subscribe to the idea that wwwh and hoB are in close proximity to each other.

            I am not the one to answer your question, but I will try. As I understand it, those that do subscribe to this theory say that NF,BTFTW is not a measurement, but rather a viewing distance. So, if you are at wwwh, the distance between there and hoB can be very short, because you can easily see hoB from wwwh. Emphasis is placed on the “Not Far”, and less emphasis is placed on the BTFTW. – Since it is too far to walk – don’t walk, look, and it is right there. That is my understanding of why some think that they are close together.

            Maybe someone who believes in this theory will chime in and give their reasons why they support this theory. – JDA

          • Hi JD

            To me, Fenn uses To Far to Walk as a euphemism.

            When I say – It’s a bridge too far – you understand there is no bridge right?

            Or if I tell you – Take a long walk off a short pier – there is no pier

            I think it’s the same thing here. This would mean the emphasize for distance is on Not Far.

            That’s the opposite of what most are doing here. Many are either traversing or viewing a long distance when the clue may be of short distance. This matches Fenn’s comment on MW about looking something in the distance and not seeing what’s right beside.


          • Hi Lug;

            Not sure euphemism is the correct word.
            Euphamism = “the substitution of an agreeable or inoffensive expression for one that may offend or suggest something unpleasant; also : the expression so substituted ” …But be that as it may – How do you equate your interpretation (a meaning opposite of what was stated {Not far = close}) with the poem being “Straight forward”? – Just askin – JDA

        • Hi all,
          I’m with Zap on this one. For a while I struggled with this issue because in my solution the clues are getting progressively more difficult (e.g. clue 2 is easier than clue 3). But look at the issue here, Mr Fenn stated: (paraphrasing as I don’t know the exact quote) – ‘frst clue is most difficult and subsequent clues are getting progressively easier’. Look up the definition of ‘progressive’. Here it is: ‘happening or developing gradually or in stages; proceeding step by step.’
          If my quote of Mr Fenn is correct and assuming that certain geographical topology conditions are met, then there are 2 solutions to Mr Fenn’s statement:

          First solution. Clue 2 is easier than clue 1, clue 3 is easier than 2 and so on.

          Second solution. Clue 1 is harder than clue 9, clue 9 is harder than clue 8 and so on.

          Unless my quote of Mr Fenn above is incorrect, Mr Fenn didn’t give a hint here. Seeker’s postulate is as good as Zap’s. Personally I side with Zap. Clue 2 is easier than clue 3.

          • Hi LIG….you wrote…

            “If my quote of Mr Fenn is correct and assuming that certain geographical topology conditions are met, then there are 2 solutions to Mr Fenn’s statement:

            First solution. Clue 2 is easier than clue 1, clue 3 is easier than 2 and so on.

            Second solution. Clue 1 is harder than clue 9, clue 9 is harder than clue 8 and so on.”


            But alas….there IS yet a third reason and probably the most logical of them all….

            If one were to figure out clue #1 and then proceed with that position with BOTG – by reading the poem as it is written……is one other way to look at this.

            Maybe, after you figure out WHERE clue #1 is, then the geographical location is easier to figure out as you progress through the clues……continuous.

            This post is just another opinion on my “Its a Sunday drive in the mountains” general solve”….copyrighted BTW!


          • So the clues get easier after the first few because Forrest is making an assumption and it relates to his response relative to people telling him the answer to the first couple clues but then going right on by the treasure because they didn’t understand the first couple of clues.

            Forrest is saying, if you FULLY understand the first clue, then the clues or the hunt become progressively easier because the CONTEXT is known to the searcher not the place…

            I told Lugnutz previously in this forum that I could give everyone WWWH and I still don’t think people could find the treasure (although the place would be overrun with zealots and it would possibly be terrible), because without understanding the nature of the first clue as well as its location, there is little chance an individual can find the treasure…

            One more thing, I have adamantly stated that “Canyon” is the word which is key, BUT based on my recent revelation I’ve come to understand that Canyon may have gotten me to the location but it is NOT the word in the poem which got me to the context of the clues and subsequently, the tentative location of the treasure.

            But since someone just brought it up in this recent discussion, I believe Forrest is referring to OUR or the searchers understanding of “IT.”

            IT; is the context of the clues and there is a word in the poem for all to see which can lead one to IT!


            P.S. Lugnutz – there is also something in his stories which corroborates or hints at this context. Like Forrest said, I take nothing for granted and everything a person of average intelligence needs to find my treasure is in my book and in the poem…

          • GCG –

            On this blog many fall under the spell of the Wizard. People that are rational when they discover it begin to succumb to the insscesent pull coming from inside. It’s happening to you in real time.

            A month ago, confirmation bias was for you solid and visible. It is already becoming malleable.


          • GCG,

            You’ve said some things that resonate with me.

            Would you agree that Stanza 1 could be “IT” speaking to the reader of the poem?

  60. I truly believe that whoever solves this great puzzle of a poem will be someone who thinks similar to Forrest.

    As we all know Forrest is one highly intelligent individual, I’m not talking about somebody solving his poem having the same I.Q as him.

    What I’m talking about is an individual who can think out of the box, whilst at the same time use a bit of imagination.

    Talk to any detective for example who is working on a case of lets say a serial killer, the first thing that they do is to try and get in to the individuals mind and think how they think.

    Only then can they start to try and solve the clues step by step, solving the clues to Forrest Fenns poem is no different in my opinion.

    Once you start thinking how Forrest thinks I do believe that you will be able to start solving the clues to his poem.

    I have my own thoughts on what WWWH means which I am keeping close to my chest.

    Ronnie the Scot

  61. Does anyone know how to see the results of the survey monkey survey asking searchers what they thought the key word was?

  62. They’re taking me back in now. Must admit it’s very comfortable – lovely soft walls, and three meals a day. Don’t like the things they stick on my head from time to time, though, they make me twitch. May be gone for some time.

    A thought before I go. This is not so much a treasure hunt, but more like chess. Trouble is we only have pawns, and we’re playing against a master with all his pieces, and his moves preplanned. Our job is to get to the end of the board and become a queen.

    Bye for now.

    • Just be careful with the one nurse, Ratched?, she can be a spiteful one.
      Care for some gum, first? It’s Wrigley’s Juice Fruit.

    • Vox – slight correction if I may. The searcher is a pawn, singular. We have to get on a train to leap forward 2 rows. Then it’s 5 water crossings and we are crowned. I’ve been playing this game of chess for awhile now.

  63. Question, Mr. Fenn said that all the information needed to find the chest is in the poem. We know the nine clues are in consecutive order, but what about the information needed to solve the clues, is that also in consecutive order? Or can the information needed to solve a clue in stanza two, be located in stanza, 4, 5, or 6?

    • James, Just my personal view. For me, clues are in stanzas 2,3 and 4. Hints are in stanzas 5,6 and 1. JMO – JDA

    • “your effort will be worth the cold” in 6 seems very significant to me in what to consider in the search

      clue or hint, undecided

      • In reality, I don’t even concern myself with labeling something either a clue or a hint, I find that a distraction. Rather, use whatever seems to matter and go with it.

      • Mr. Hay-

        “Your effort will be worth the cold” translated means it will be worth following Mr. Fenn’s tracks. You see Fenn means cart or sled. He is using the term like we sometimes say…..”the trail went cold” Ever notice how he likes to post his picture leaning against a wagon wheel…..maybe that is a clue. Hope that helps…

        Best regards;


        • Billy,

          Interesting. Can I ask what evidence leads you to be so certain of that translation?

          • I figured out the “key” word in the poem. Then you can apply the same methodology to “unlock” the other words in the poem.

  64. Does 208 or 209 mean anything to anybody? It seems to me to have some importance, but I can’t figure it out.

    Mr. Vox, I think the lobotomy will help you….

    Good luck;


  65. I had a wonderful dream last night. I was looking at a creek and I realized I was at the place Forrest hid the treasure. I had this great feeling I knew it was up there! Right as I was headed up the creek. I was woke up by a voice. I still have this lingering feeling. Now I just need to figure out where this area is!I have the surrounding trees., Lake and inlet creek. Canyon too.
    It’s clear in my mind. I just don’t know where it is. But I will know it if I see it!

  66. My effort to solve the poem lately has been focusing on the word play and word choices in the poem. Obviously, the poem has some “unconventional “ construction with word placement, word choice, etc.

    I really like the idea of kennings and “marrying/melding” incompatible words to make a new “useful” word. Like “heavy loads water high” could be “Washington” or “ Queen’s Laundry” (like the geyser in Yellowstone).

    Another way I could see the poem worked is in the way some phrases sound…

    For example, “Just take the chest…”

    A popular idiom is “Home is where the heart is.” If your heart’s home is in your chest, I could imagine:

    “Just stake the chest” = “Homestake” which is a place name in an interesting (to me) in MT.

    Just some thoughts…

  67. There was a discussion about confirmation bias, not too long ago. Up this thread was about facts are important. I see a lot of bias with each others reasoning. I think its important to be non-biased in solving the poem, which gives more flexibility to find the true facts. I go with “what if” first, then disprove if you can, if you can’t then move to the next “what if” and so on.

    The correlation between wwwh and hoB needs to be strong and sound, before you continue on. I didn’t forget canyon down etc, it marries wwwh and hoB. IMO

    Trying to help

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