Where Warm Waters Halt…Part Eleven


This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the conversation please go to the latest WWWH page.

This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion begin…


817 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…Part Eleven

  1. Well Dal.
    I believe it’s just run of mountain water rain water but drys up in the summer time.If you are in the right canyon.

    • Mike mike.. excuse me Dahlins… I have nothing to add at this point… I am just checkin in…

  2. I recently found a location that can be interpreted as meeting 3 criteria; WWWH, HOB, and title to the gold. Canyon down is there too, but meek is a long ways away. That solve is on the back-burner for the moment after I found a what I believe to be a good map yesterday.

    Time will tell if either works out though. Who knows, maybe they’re related in some way.

    Take care everyone.


    • I believe theres one canyon and one small gully that the creek set’s in.

      One ideal would be crossing a fence
      No place for the meek.

      • MM,

        I had little respect for fences when I was young, but have a completely different perspective nowadays, unless it’s like in serious disrepair, which would tend to infer to me that no one cares. So in that case I would cross thru it.

        But if I could find the land owner, I’d simply ask for permission and hope for a green light. Otherwise, I will respect the decision. No question about it.


      • Wildbirder,
        Should no place for the meek refer to go in confidence, then it would seem we don’t need to find a representation of a place [for meek] but find the “end” of home of Brown.
        … From there [ hoB ] the end is drawing ever nigh.. right?
        Does the end refer to the solve itself, and all we need now is “just” HL n WH. to get to the blaze.
        In which case’ find wwwh and canyon down. locate hoB… then HLnWH. Sounds like three places to me, right?

        Here’s a WhatIF… what IF hoB is the location/home of WWWH and the canyon, and “just” HLnWH is “Just” WWH. So we are basically to ‘put in’ N possibly ‘take it on” [ as a view ] there/where the first clue is to find/discover the blaze.

        If using antonyms for meek is ok, why not synonyms for put in and take in, to mean; ‘view at’ or observe, or even gaze? And all represent one place to find the blaze at and view where the chest is.

        • BTW I was trying to reply to Pinatubochcharlie “I hope I typed that correctly.
          I only used the an antonym for meek so I could understand what it means. I made us a dictionary of every word in the poem – meanings, synonyms, antonyms. the reason We went with the “opposite meaning” of meek is Mr. Fenn said in the poem “From there it’s no place for the meek,”
          If you are meek it’s no place for you. Meek = Lack of Confidence. this works for us but someone else might use another meaning. Mr. Fenn also said people over complicate the poem. we tried to find simple meaning without getting to twisted up in the words. If a 10 or 11 year old cant follow your solve it maybe to complicated. IMHO

  3. I believe wwwh will be unique… I.e. not where one stream meets another, etc. ( Mine is, yet definitely makes sense.) The other clues fell into place after. I will very much go in confidence.

  4. “My WWWH is not a natural feature.”

    Something for that poster who doesn’t like “sub/submarine(?)/subscribe/etc” as an entry.


    Thanks Dal!

    • Just trying to help. I said unique , doesn’t mean it still couldn’t be a natural feature. Ugh.

      • Hey Santa….*hugs you* Thanks for the presents!!

        Anyhow…are you Canadian or German decent?


        But you are right – it could be a natural feature, I just didn’t go with that explanation of it.

        I went with somewhat of a child’s interpretation….”the edge of civilization is where the warm waters are and there ain’t none in the wild”…..*smiles*…..

        That is where I began. Tough choice, huh? FF said it wasnt going to be impossible, so I went with the next thing easier – it is difficult.

        Why not make something extremely difficult by concealing the name of the location within 100s of thousands possibilitiy. I know I would, especially if I wanted it to last many, many years.

        Think……”difficult”……but how difficult is what you have to determine.

        Good luck to us!

        • Tim –

          We discussed this 2 years ago.
          The idea that Forrest is using Where Warm Waters Halt the way Silverstein used Where the Sidewalks End.

          That would mean get out of the civilized world, out to where the wild things are.


          • Hey Lugnutz.

            WWWH: “edge of civilization”

            Then I would have to think, that without using that info, I think I did good then, considering, my explanation above was decided upon as early as 2013/14.

            I guess one could say this is just confirmation bias, but IMO – clearly, your information is more than just that to my thinking and solution.

            I’ll stick with my starting point.

            Good post…Good luck and thanks.

          • Tim –

            Many searchers, and I think, everyone else here, is looking for a starting point that references water.

            I just don’;t think there is anything particularly clever about referring to spring as Where Warm Water Halts. Our way is more creative and more Fennish.

            Whether you are looking for a body of water or the edge of a town there are thousands North of Sane Fe int he Rockies.


          • Oh…don’t get me wrong….I agree with the wording.

            But that is just about it.

            Words can mean many things….

            Art itself has man interpretations….in any format….
            – two people see things differently all the time

            FF knows these things…especially with owning an art gallery.

            Perception is interpretation.

            Interpretation is Self.

            Self is the mind, body, consciousness, thougjts, decisions, effort, will, action, etc…etc…etc….

            You won’t get anywhere without it.

            Those words are mine. You may quote them as being from me anytime…..*smiles*…..

            Good luck L.

    • Tim (ZosoRocks), Forrest says he likes Sub Mariner as a comic book character… there’s a reason for that.

      • Huh? Forrest?…..a avid comic collector?…..no WAY!!??

        Hmm…I can now add another connection to Fenn. I have over 800+, in addition to buying and sell pop culture on the side!

        Think he would trade? Sell?

        Oooohhhh….maybe that is the “surprise” in the box….a vintage comic book……now that would be amazing to me……X-men #1? Sub-Mariner #1, oh the list could be fun to image.

        Unfortunately, I know that water and comic books don’t go to gether well, but if the box is only 10×10 and sealed properly (he did say no mildew is in the box)…..it is plausible…….hmmmm…..interesting thought pattern.

        I’ll have to make a note of this……Interesting James…..thanks!

        WOW….you really know how to boost a guy’s confidence!


  5. WWWH is such a broad clue, it can apply to thousands of areas, just like canyon down. Only when you get to HOB will the search narrow.

    • Seems reasonable, there are many wwwh and nearly all are N. of SF. .. some need to be south as well… so, “it” is where wwh, and it should be at hoB. In fact all the clues could be. Unless we are given the staring location and all the clues fall within. If the location of all the clues are ‘contained’ within that location… where is it in the poem? and how can it not be considered a clue? The option is… the answers.

      End of commentary.

      • Yes, the starting location has to be given to us in the poem, imo. It’s not considered a clue cause it’s a hint, imo. It’s a hint because it comes before the first clue which says begin it here…it’s covered cause of that.

        Some are baking an upside down cake and some are making an ‘I left out some ingredients’ cake.

    • Hi Dwayne: I don’t think anyone ~can~ get to HOB without figuring out WWWH first. Yes, there are thousands in the Rockies (and maybe even a few out of the Rockies south of Santa Fe), but the poem singles out just one.

  6. What is wrong with SUBMARINE? Consider that warm waters may mean sea or salt water.

  7. I think there are 2 wwwh that are different analogies and locations. Though they are within the same path .

    • Well could wwwh be the same as there be no paddle up your creek. The same creek for both

      • No, not in concert to what I mean, Mike. No 2 are the same but on the same path or area- this being because there may be some physical distance and another different meaning. Such as this example using your example: ‘there could be a creek there’ and another being ‘ it may look dangerous’ ( no paddle up your creek). Each one of two for the nine clues are not the same ‘physically viewed ‘in meaning but are all relative on the same path to the chest IMO . This is within the art of poetry. IMO .

      • Meet? I interpret you mean-do the 2 meet, as in intersect? I would say no they do not meet. Though my 2 (they) are of/on the same path, 2 different locations, 2 different interpretations and locations. But they lead to the same finale. There is distance between them. In my perception and poem analysis, this applies to all the clues- there are 2 of each of the nine. I would not say parallel because all of the two’s are different in meanings. Difficult for me to give a short answer on this without sounding chaotic.

        I see 2 of everything for the clues and I can relate this strongly to my site. Confirmation bias notwithstanding lol. I can relate this philosophy in FF’s ATF’s. It appears to me that he speaks to any 1 of the 2 of any of the nine at any given time. Which this can give interpretive confusion when lining up an ATF to another ATF comment or answer of a similar topic.

        I see 2 wwwh and 2 of each of the others also- in meaning and geographic locations ,all within the same area. (The double omega.)

        In my opinion.

        • Interesting take on the way the clues are contructed, Alt.

          Soooo…just to show much “confirmation bias” I have with each clue i am using……here are my “coincidences” – by clue # – ones that I have come across – and not to say I could be wrong in the amounts – I probably am…..

          1 – 3
          2 – 3
          3 – 4
          4 – 2
          5 – 3
          6 – 4 or more
          7 – 2
          8 – 2
          9 – 4

          …as you can see….there is a mix of numbers (min total = 27), but in the least there were two hits at least – to show I did see at least the duality feature embedded.
          – eliminated an association to “24” lines in poem
          – did NOT eliminate “2+7 = 9” – thus another link tothe chain

          Others – hmmm lsom numbers are arger, huh? Are my lower numbers right and my higher numbers wrong? In reverse of that maybe? Who knows, huh? I can only GUESS, untill I pick up that darn box.

          But it is something to go on.

          Maybe you can find more…..no messin’ with the poem!!

          Anything like your set-up? Did you do this attempt like me?

          Does it give me any confidence? Oh I have confidence in the answers, is it enough?…. Not sure.
          Is it worthy to try? Sure….why not.
          Does the above help in anything? Sort of….it does give me some sort of base line to work with, I GUESS!!….LOL

          Guessing until someone picks up the treasure box. It is that simply put.


          • Tim. I have a question before I can understand your post.

            Do these:
            1 – 3
            2 – 3
            3 – 4
            4 – 2
            5 – 3
            6 – 4 or more
            7 – 2
            8 – 2
            9 – 4

            ….mean the left are the number of clues 1 through 9 and the right side numbers are the amounts at your site of potential meanings of the clues?

          • yep…exactly.

            clue # – “bias”….but to me….they are factual…..again I guess.

            Some are true and factual….others are just connections I made through research and “guessing”……only FF really knows at this point in time.



          • Well, multiple potential meanings applicable to in ones site location is, in my opinion, a good practice with this poem. Poetry has less rules ,in literary story telling and perceptions ,owning to the beholder. Hence ,this simple complexity of this poem- as a map. I just know I need to be open to multiple interpretations and a possible story within a story- it is poetry after all. IMO .

  8. Where do warm waters halt?
    Is it where sufficient cool/cold waters join in the flow? Or???
    What made these waters warm? Geothermal, solar???

  9. Could be a lot of different things. The obvious would be hot springs of some sort or another. Although it could be something more akin to where tears fall, or life ceases. Or even where a lake becomes a stream.

    I would love to hear a good argument for a wwwh though. Seems most are off the mark.

        • Thanks Kal! For me just too many places where water changes temperature, too much specialized knowledge of trout waters in NM. These could be anywhere. Wwwh. Should stand alone imo.

    • Kal;

      For me, wwwh has always been where two bodies of water converge – Say, a fairly small steam meets a bigger stream.

      Let’s call the smaller stream – “Tepid Stream” and it meets
      “Bigger Stream”. Up to the point that they converged, the waters of “Tepid Stream” went by that name, and the waters of “Big Stream” went by that name. At the point of convergence, it did not become “Big Stream/Tepid Stream”
      At the point of convergence the “Tepid Stream” halted – It lost its identity – as an entity, it halted, or ceased to exist. Thus
      “Tepid Stream” (Warm Waters) halted – or ceased to exist as an entity. At least that is how I see it. Make sense? It does to me at any rate – JDA

    AT ALL.”..

    • Yes! My point exactly!!! At this point the last place I’d search is Yellowstone below the Joe brown put in!

      • Hi again Santa (weird use, but okay) –

        *Tim thinks – the elves must be on vacation and Sant is taking a stab at something other than Florida this year!!*


        Just poking fun at the name – not you by any measure, okay…..

        :o) :o)

        Anyhooo…..but since it seems you are new to the chase…..I have always wondered and may have posted my views on why someone would be searching where probably many others are doing their searching.

        Why? Well, granted, much land can be eliminated – okay that is a plus, but I would have thought someone would have found it by now…..with all the searching going on. But it hasn’t, huh?

        Another factor that plays hard into my solve is the legal issues with YNP….damn….those would be horrendous…..why would FF do something like that to the seeker/finder? I don’t think he would. I’ve actually put my two cents out here on just the legal issues.

        I know there is a “cheat sheet” also out here on those things too…you should check it out….good ideas and helpful if you live in the US.

        Not so much if you are Canadian, huh?…well according to Alt.


        Good luck in your search.

        • Tim,
          There are no legal issues with YNP or other places.
          Dont try to bend the spoon, that’s impossible, instead, realize there is no spoon.

          • Hi Kira…thanks for responding…..I think this is covered elsewhere in the hoD…but here is a link to a “Today” article on treasure hunting on YNP.

            There are others….this is just one random pick.

            You decide for yourself if you think it is legal. But I would also check the US Government as well, so you aren’t misled with supposed “fake news” stories.


            Good luck in the hunt K!

          • Tim
            What?? You normally don’t go hicking with 42lbs of gold, jewels, and whatnots in a beautifully aged box?
            How odd.

          • Hi Kira. Going off trail in YNP is a no-no. NOt that I have ever been there doing that…..because I have been. But I didn’t go off the human made trails..

            Now…..if you are, be safe.

            Too many grizzlies IMO – therefore – eliminated because – the place FF chose is safe enough for a child [with help] to be the finder.

            Your scenario doesn’t fit those aspects.

            Id suggest thinking harder…but that is just me.

            Good luck to us this year!!

          • Tim,
            Griz is an overfeared animal, but I dont recommend going wild for a novice. There are many places in YNP where you can gonoff trail amd camp in the wilderness. Not withstanding Fenn did provide a solution to your dilemma, catch an extra fish and toss it to the Griz as you run down hill, as their front legs are shorter than their back and you’ll have the advantage. Read the book.

  11. I believed that wwwh was the convergence of the Rio Ojo Calliente and the Rio Vallecitos near La Madera, New Mexico. Also the Canon de la Madeira was there. So that would have solved wwwh (Rio Ojo Calliente is fed by the Ojo Calliente hot spring), take it in the canyon down (Canon de la Madera) and in the wood as the English translation for madera is wood. I even found a nice large juniper tree in this canyon next to the river. However a thorough search found no blaze, but some interesting rock formations. One appeared to be an owl (if you’ve been wise). No luck after 2 days I gave up moving with confidence after no treasure. It was beautiful there and there’s even a home of Brown in the way of Owl Peak Pottery. The owner, who also has cancer, makes micaceous Apache clay pots which are orangish brown and shine because of the mica. All of these clues gave me a wonderful adventure though.

  12. So this is what I have so far… A wwh. Then an obvious canyon down. A too far to walk, a home of Brown (person, capitalized). Definitely heading towards no place for meek, heavy loads, water high, no paddle up a creek ( super solid, not just class 4 rapids or a dry Creek bed) and!!!! An end drawing nigh. Then, once I get here ( poem and map) I’m in a singular ” wood” and brave! (Meaning of words, not scary) cross small creek ((cold) also: in elevation range, off trail, still able to access nearby in a sedan… I’m honestly just trying to talk myself out of driving from Michigan, although I Know I’d enjoy anyway. ( avid fly fisherman). Just have to convince the wife.

    • Santa, …convincing the wife is harder than the solve itself. Had to do it twice last year. Our trip was 13 hours [one way]. Was so sure about my WWWH until FF scratched Rio Grande.

      Now i have a new WWWH and it will be a crazy (wifey’s description) 16-hour haul. Softening her up with gifts and shopping trips.

  13. for my warm waters halt i am thinking and have been thinking like many of us double or triple meaning. Not only warm springs but medicinal waters as well.

    • near a river. I still like madison or yellowstone. Dal i think you and i have come really close to it. i should share why my solve is near yours but a little different might reveal something.

  14. Tim, I never saw a problem with going off trail in YS. I did it several times with no problem. I think it is more of a suggestion than an enforced rule there.

    • Yes but Forrest does:

      Apr 5, 2017 · “Generally speaking, there are places where one should stay on established trails; Yellowstone is one.”

      In my personal opinion also based on Forrest’s TV interview; Yellowstone and National Parks are O U T


      • GCG, FF’s statement: “Generally speaking, there are places where one should stay on established trails; Yellowstone is one.”

        like many other of FF’s statements does not say anything definitive one way or another. Yes generally speaking a person should stay on established trails. But what does that mean really? A general opinion as it relates to a large group of people. There tons of people visiting YS every summer and as it relates to most who are there to see the sites they should stay on trails. IMO that does not mean that a prepared searcher that has done their homework needs to.

        • GCG –

          You and I agree.
          Fenn is saying stay on the trial while in Yellowstone. If it doesn’t fit for a chaser, he/she will just say Well Fenn used the word Generally.

          If he hadn’t used the word Generally and someone needs an off trail solve like at Ojo Caliente then they would just say Fenn is a trickster.

          Aaron, not attacking you, just illustrating the point to GCG that chasers ignore Fenn’s statements or bend them.


          • Yes Lug, they do and I’m not going to assert that I am free of this however like I said in previous comments if you are going to place the treasure within 500′ of a human trail, then you should have a solid piece of logic as to why you feel or interpret “very close proximity” as meaning less than 200′ let say, because Forrest has said that one searcher has been “close” and that searcher later was said to have been about 200′ feet from the treasure.

            Therefore unlike some people, I’m OK with the treasure being less than 500′ from a human trail because “very close” too Forrest, I suspect means just a bit off of a human trail, some distance under 200′ ; say 50-100 feet…

            And in the previous example of:
            on trails and off trails
            In YNP or Not in YNP

            A searcher shouldn’t use ambiguous phrases to assist in interpret the poem anyway only to corroborate (it never works the other way)

            Lastly Forrest has said so many things, about so many aspects of the search for the treasure and otherwise; a searcher can usually group things – the larger the group and its consistency the more reliable the interpretation becomes…


          • GCG –

            I don’t know where you place the treasure in relation to where Fenn parked his sedan, but I place it within 100 yards.

            Simple fact – People do not go off trail when there is a trail to take.

            Look at the high route along the Divide through the Beartooth moutnains. The nickname of that trail is The Well Worn Trail. Very few divert.


          • GCG…since we really haven’t heard hide not hair of the Game Master in quite a while….in your opinion…do you think that distance has changed? It has been a few years since that was spoken.

            Good luck to you.

          • IMHO ff is speaking about the YS area from about Old Faithful, north ward towards the Gardiner entrance, where there are many areas that the ground may give way and you fall into a hot spring .

        • I agree with Aaron. Forrest’s life and stories all scream TRAILBLAZER. He also self-identifies as a bold maverick and trailblazer.

          I don’t understand why anyone would be willing to eliminate a massive chunk of potential search area that Forrest proclaims to be “In love” with (isn’t this just the sort of place one would likely find a spot that is very special to Forrest), based solely on this response to a question about “leave no trace” and “staying on established trails.” The person asking the question considered these two things to be one and the same thing. IMO, Forrest is sending several messages regarding this concept:

          1. He’s saying that leave no trace (aka, stay on established trails) should not be taken literally.
          2. If you ain’t the lead dog (aka, trailblazer) life is pretty boring (he intended TToTC to be an adventure).
          3. When he’s out there (anywhere in nature), the last place he wants to be is on a trail because there’s no adventure (fun) in that.

          Surely most searchers have noticed that Fenn is not a fan of the government telling the people (owners) of this great land what they can and can’t enjoy. Forrest has spent the vast majority of his time in YNP off-trail. Read the preface of TFTW for just one example.

          • At the top

            Honestly I love your breakdown and comments on this; entirely lucid and I’m in agreement with you.

            One of my favorite stories of Forrest is the one where he takes his high school football coach fishing one last time at a favorite spot in YNP. Clearly Forrest is willing to break the rules.

            However he created the treasure hunt for everyone and he had to take legalities into consideration as well as a number of other factors – remember he worked hard to think of “everything.”

            Does Forrest live YNP absolutely, did he hide the treasure ini there? I don’t think so too many complications.

            Just my opinion…


          • GCG,

            I’ve been tracking…err…reading your posts closely because they scare me 🙂

            Your posts are also quite lucid and you are a good thinker; exactly the kind of person that is likely to crack Mr. Fenn’s riddle. Your posts regarding “IT” and “CONTEXT” were leading me to believe you and I have the same solution. Who knows, it is possible we have the same IT, and thus, CONTEXT, but are applying it to different geographic locations.

            Regardless, I must say I’m relieved you’re not in the YNP camp 🙂

          • At The Top –

            If we are talking about how and where Forrest has spent his time, let’s be clear and complete.

            The 45 years spent in New Mexico dwarfs the 16 spent in Texas/YNP.
            His business, fame and fortune were built in New Mexico.
            His children were born and raised in New Mexico.
            H appears on the New Mexico 3 dollar bill.

            Oh Wait I forget. He bathed in the warm waters of the Firehole River several times. That must be it!


          • Ahh, thanks Dal.

            New Mexico is certainly important to him.
            Many dismiss or equate the time spent in New Mexico with the time spent in WYS.

            He was what, 41 when he moved to Snaate Fe, so ofcourse this makes snese that the children were born before that more.


          • Tim,

            I do not believe that 200′ distance has changed. I believe no searcher has been closer than the 200′.

            This last summer at one point I thought that I may have come within the 200′ but now I don’t think so any longer. I’d put myself in the 500′ club…


          • Hello Lugnutz – (Interesting side note, my son’s T-Ball team was the Lugnutz this season),

            I didn’t see your response to my post until just now, but your point is well taken. If I am in error in my assumption here, please let me know, but perhaps you thought I was attempting to exclude NM or other locations, other than YNP. That’s not the case at all.

            I thought it worth pointing out to the readers of this forum that a different take on Fenn’s comments is quite feasible and perhaps marking a substantially large and, IMO, quite viable search area (YNP) off the list should be done with a certain level of caution. The same level of caution should be applied to marking ANY viable search area off the list without evidence much more compelling than what I saw presented via a partial quotation of his comments.

            The time that Mr. Fenn spent in YNP over the course of his life, although not irrelevant, is not my reason for suspecting the treasure might be found there. It’s based on my solution of the poem which, at least in my opinion, is quite concrete and compelling.

            Again, I’m not proposing to eliminate any other search areas in any of the states in play.

      • Correction to the first line in the previous comment:

        Yes but Forrest doesn’t
        think people should go off the trails in Yellowstone National Park
        The treasure isn’t in very close proximity to a human trail.

        That’s simple logic to me especially when you combine it with his discussion on TV with a reporter regarding the legalities of the treasures ownership if found in a National Park.

        For me National Parks are not in the picture and neither are Indian or Native American Reservations.


        • Indian Land is completely different to National Parks… In actuality we own the parks. The Native Americans Own the reservations… their own rules and laws.

          Fenn once describe a scenario where we the people own our parks and if he wanted to secret a can of DR. Pepper on his portion of allotted land, what’s the big deal?
          Is by doing so a criminal act? Is it a criminal act for you to find his soda and take it?
          Or is this nothing more the a value problem of the find where the park’s officials are concerned.

          While I, personally, will not consider a ‘general thought of a solution that bring me to a reservation’ A National Park is owned by the people. Yep, there are rules and regulations in place… but at one time YS was attempting to ban, Fenn treasure searching. NM law enforcement attempted to make a big deal out of it as well for hunting in NM. [well, only fenn’s hunt, apparently others didn’t matter ]. You have to ask yourself… maybe these rules and regulations are not always correct…
          Safety wise, stay on a path… but if ya pay for a permit… they’ll let ya wander the back woods, but only if you pay to do so.

          I will add this; Torg n Elliot; 3:30 mins. mark.
          Q~ Reservations or what nots, do you ever worry about Indian spirits or ‘removing’ some of this stuff, it might bring a bad ju ju on you?
          A~ Well, I’m not worried about that. But you ‘should not take ‘anything’ off Indian reservations.
          IMO ~ if your wwwh or any clues is on Indian land… walk away from that ‘general solve’ and show a little respect.
          NPs are another story…

          End of commentary.

          • Seeker,
            It seems like every other day you choose to drop a little hint about the correct solve. One day, someone’s going to pick up on them and leap-frog you…. if someone hasn’t already. So my advice is don’t boast, or be vain.

          • How do you know it’s “correct”?

            Do you use my hints as part of your general solve?

            Does that make mine correct too?

            Did you attempt remote viewing? Use esoterism, Numerology, logic, facts, etc.

            What makes you say “correct”?

            Cheers Quelle…inquiring minds want to know?

            Good luck.

          • Just a WhatIF…what if FFs plan was in fact to ‘endow’ a reservation by placing the box on their land? For me it is still a possibility, because at the end of the day the box itself may not be the true ‘value’, rather the story is where monetary gain could be had…I envision it goes something like this: searcher follows clues to (just an example) the wind river range in WY…the reservation’s south western corner includes a large chunk of the wind river range (2800 sq miles total, lets say 30% is indian land…that’s a lot of area still, IMO), searcher finds the box and realizes it is on reservation land…the law is very clear, it belongs to the people of the reservation. Searcher consults lawyers and realizes to be able to tell the story (the true one) the only way out is to give them the box…but you as the finder still ‘own’ the story, IMO, and you go forth. The beauty in a solve like this is two fold…it presents the finder with the prestige of solving the puzzle and gives the tribe a tourist attraction unrivaled, and allows the box and its contents to be shared by all. I do not exclude tribal land for these reasons, I do agree it would add a layer of difficulty for the finder, but I think it is still possible that FF ‘thought of everything’, IMO.

            For you newcomers, you should look at the ‘legal’ section here on HOD, many have looked into what happens if you find ‘property’ on certain land. BLM land is the ONLY clear cut ‘finders/keepers’ land, all others including Nat Park, Nat Forest, Nat wildlife refuges, etc. all have clear legal precedent.

          • Tbug,

            “what if FFs plan was in fact to ‘endow’ a reservation by placing the box on their land?”

            The special place to Fenn came before the Chase, no?
            If so, that would be why I would doubt your premise. Too much secondary intention, IMO.

        • GCG.

          I have to agree. I don’t see FF causing legal issues with the chase, especially knowing of his own legal interactions.

          I just don’t see FF knowingly and putting these situations or happenings onto “a guy down on his luck” or really into ANYONE for that matter.

          FF doesn’t see that kind of guy…..
          …philanthropist and all….donating sales to charity…..it’s not his style.

          I don’t bite nor follow/subscribe to, any of those rabbit holes……


        • FF talks about being a fishing guide in YS and this absolutely requires taking people off trail to spots that your average tourist wouldn’t know about. Heck when I used a fishing guide in YS he took us off trail quit a distance. People photographing wildlife go off trail there. I saw other random people go off trail. Some with backpacks who I suspected maybe treasure hunting as well.

          GCG, I don’t know if you realize how common it is to go off trail in YS. I could be wrong but I don’t think that it is an enforced rule except perhaps in areas where there grizzlies or sensitive habitat.

          • Arron,
            I love YNP and was just there again this last summer completing the North end tour of the park from Gardiner to Lamar Valley and out the North East end.

            We ended up driving into Cody via Chief Josephs Hwy….. AMAZING!

            If you haven’t seen this part of our country it should be a must on your bucket list.

            Anyway, I’m not going to convince everyone but the treasure IS NOT in YNP.

            I went through the potentials extensively and there just isn’t a viable solution there… IMHO.


          • Dang! Sounds like another searcher went past the treasure.

            Some light-repartee for you, GCG.

    • There are rules against going off trail in areas of Yellowstone where there are thermals.

      Check 3rd bullet:


      This concerns me. I ran across a youtube of someone asserting he had the correct solve in a location near the old cargo road, and it directed to a thermal area where there are no legal trails.

      I wish FF would clarify on this issue to keep idiots out of places where they could do permanent damage to something important to many of us that love that park.

      • HayDuke,
        From Fenn comment
        “Generally speaking, there are places where one should stay on established trails; Yellowstone is one… There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty to where I hid the treasure.f”

        How you define “very close proximity” is how far off a trail youll need to go, be it in YNP or elsewhere. However the first part of his statement tells you its not in YNP, imo.

        • Kira,

          I agree. Yet, it is vague enough that there are people going places they shouldn’t. FF could make it more clear, IMO.

          • It doesnt matter though as there will be those that will ignore what is said, its these people who would do what you worry about. They would justify it as ‘Fenn said that to keep the search going’.
            Rangers will blame searchers even though non searcher visitors walk all boardwalks, take soaks in acid baths, put baby bison in the back of their car, to name a few.

          • Hehehe….”baby bison in their car”….bad Kira!..

            But I get your point…..people do things without really knowing what they are doing is actually not helping anyone or anything.

            Sad story all around.

        • Kira,

          The quote you offer has the middle part left out. Here’s the middle:

          “However, it reminds me of the worn-out axiom, “If you ain’t the lead dog, the scenery never changes.” When I am in the mountains or in the desert, the last place I want to be is on a trail. Ain’t no adventure in that for me.”

          • Yes the … is a tool used to indicate a condensed quote. You seem to find flavor in this as a vital piece of information, care to explain why this axiom is relevant to the information provided?

          • I recognized your ellipsis. I think what Forrest was trying to convey is more clear within the context of the entire quote, which is why I provided the middle part as well.

            You draw the conclusion that “…the first part of his statement tells you its not in YNP…” I certainly can’t prove that your conclusion is wrong, but my opinion is that it’s a bit of a reach based on just a portion of his response.

            I can’t offer irrefutable proof of the opposite either, but every searcher must draw their own conclusions. I’m suggesting that when we interpret what Forrest is trying to convey from a statement, it’s better to draw our conclusions from ALL of what he said.

          • MikeMike;

            Since no one has yet found Indulgence, I doubt that anyone can say “for sure” what the Big Picture is, but, If I may, I will give it a try.

            I am only guessing, but I would think that the “Big Picture” has to do with Forrest’s love of Fly Fishing, his love of the out-of-doors, and his love of Native American culture. How can these three things be rolled into a “Big Picture”?

            As a real estate person would say, Location, Location, Location. We know that the place that Forrest hid Indulgence is “Special” to Forrest. Why would it be “Special”? Special because of its beauty? Possibly, but for me, I think that “Special” relates to memories of a place. “Special childhood” memories perhaps.

            Special “Fly Fishing” memories – whether as a boy or as an adult.

            And lastly, I think that the “Special place” relates, in some way with the Native American culture, and its history. A history possibly going back to when man first walked the Rocky Mountains 10,00 – 12,000 years ago.

            Where is this “Special Place” that can incorporate these three “Special” things that help to make up the “Big Picture”? Not sure yet, but I think that once found, that it WILL include these three elements – But then again, I don’t know very much. JDA

          • P.S. The “Big Picture” might even go back farther than when man first walked the Rocky Mountains – It MIGHT even go back to the last Ice Age, that carved the valley that man first walked in once the glacier began its retreat – Who knows? JDA

        • Kira ~ ‘How you define “very close proximity” is how far off a trail youll need to go…”
          You have to add [ to get the full flavor ] a “human trail’ IMO, there is a difference between a trail and a created human trail…
          In YSP a boardwalk or chained/rope guide walking area etc. is a ‘human trail’…A paved road or dirt maintain access road is a human trail, or even a designated mark path for the purpose of control…
          But, is a beaten path [ lets say, on a rim of a canyon ] a “human trail” just because we walk the rim of the canyon? Is the Continental Divide really a trail [ a human trail ] or do we just call it that because folks enjoy walking it for recreation. Is a saddle of a mountain pass a true human trail, or just an easy way to travel instead of around said mountain?

          Could it be that fenn might be implying… he parked near a human trail [a road] and walked ‘to the clues’… not in very close proximity to a human trail [the road]. Followed the clue to the hide, walked back to his car and rinse and repeat -?- less than a few miles in one afternoon…

          My only reasoning for posting this [ in the wwwh thread ] WWH might be the place we need to start the clues with… but … do we just jump out of our car at wwwh, or do we need to walk away from the human trail [a road] that brought us close enough to get to it?
          I think “very close” might indicate that the travel fenn made from his car was, in part, meant to say… we need to get to the first clue from there, and not so much where he parked is the first clue or any clue. Leaving the idea… not only the chest, but all the clues are not in “very close proximity of a human trail”

          • Seeker,
            perhaps you should reaearch and ponder the TC is not associated with a structure to help you think your way through this.

            Someone asked Fenn something very similar regading your musings.

            It seems from reading these topics you like to overthink these things. Perhaps stepping back and looking at the big picture may with the complexity in which you make of all the information overload.

            Good luck

          • Sure, you can call it over thinking… I call it filling in the gaps.
            But seeing how you brought up structures.. where was a structure in my response? I have never considered a structure involved with the poem at all, to be honest.
            And if we take the conversation Cynthia recalls with fenn… [summarizing and assuming] ~IF hoB relates to~ “the treasure is not associated with a structure, so hoB is not a structure… WWWH shouldn’t be either… because WWH is [ on paper – a clue ] associate with the treasure, line of thinking. Which also seems to relate to WWWH is not a dam.

            But I could, yet again, be over thinking… as I have been told in the past. Maybe I should read up on the AFT… yep, that a good idea. Wy didn’ I’d thunk that…

          • Seeker,
            No wonder you were not able to follow along with my comments.
            Your response makes much more sense as to how you think and the assumptions you are making. Its quite an interesting approach how you are taking and lumping everything together like that.

          • Kira,
            I have tried many approaches; as how this all unfolds… some I have I never mentioned. At the start if this, the approach was like many… 9 clues, nine places. Clues in stanza 2 3 and maybe 4 etc. But in actuality, I see 3 maybe 4 places, and not so much 9 places.. even then.. they seems to be spread out. So, nailing down wwwh was the first step to decipher and move from there, right?

            But without fenn’s later involvement, answering curious questions from searchers, we’d still be at square one, imo. I have taken those ATF into account as to a few things that seem to transpire in the poem. One is, what size of an area we should be considering; Such as, is wwwh a large area like YSP… but that doesn’t seem to fit the ATF comments… so do I stick with YS as wwwh or move on? These are questions needed to be asked to avoid target fixation, line of thinking.

            Fenn tells us he walked from his car and followed the clues, he did it twice in one afternoon and walked less than a few miles and tell us we should do basically do the same within several hours for our theoretical solves.

            None of the above tells me a vehicle is needed to travel clues, or clues are 10 or 20 miles apart, etc. as some have suggested. That idea of distances and time in searchers solves that have been talked about is nothing more [ politically correct ] IMO… than target fixated, or they just can’t let go of their favorite spot and dismiss reasonable and logical thinking of ATF comments.

            My scenario of wwwh being, bunched up with other clues, as you said… is an example of how the ATF comment might help in reading the poem without forcing or dismissing the bones we ask for.

            LOL deciphering the clues is another story.
            I don’t believe that thinking and analyzing stops at deciphered clues… it continues into ‘field work’ [ not stomping clues, but observing them ]…IF correct, we may also have to plan this out as well.

            I could go on and on with ideas and methods and how the ATF might line up thoughts to it all… but that is the idea.

            This is not a Sunday outing to kick over a few logs… whatever the outcome… fenn will make the finder work from start to finish, and as he said; the actions of the searcher will have “certainty beforehand.” That to me is, knowing what to do vs. stomping out clues.

            The thing about the ATF’s that has given me the most food for thought up to this point is; fenn comment, he follow the clues before the poem was complete (completed) …A question that as been on everyone’s mind from the start… Did fenn take a short cut? It’s apparent to me, he needed wwwh, just like he tells us we need to nail it down or stay home.
            So in my mind if your solve [ meaning any solve] skips wwwh and moves to a later clues… I don’t see it working.

            I’ll add to that; if you have wwwh deciphered… there seems to be more about it than just knowing what it refers to… which leads me to believe… their is more to this than simple deciphering of clue references… they need to lead us… how that is done -?-, Ha! if only I had that answer. But I have ideas.. and I check and balance them with each ATF comment we receive.

            Yep I think and think again, and think some more [because of those ATF]… The simple idea of; following the dotted line to the chest is great for the movies… but I doubt that this challenge will play out that way in the end.

          • Seeker
            In the following exchange.
            Question posted 6/30/2014:
            Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits?
            Thanks, d

            Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information.f

            How do you arrive at a variety of clues as being joined the way you expressed.
            The only interpretation to me is only the TC isnt associated with a structure and therefore leaves hob or other places that could have a structure/or not, no requirement for a structure that I see, but its always a possibility.

          • Seeker…You wrote….

            “So in my mind if your solve [ meaning any solve] skips wwwh and moves to a later clues… I don’t see it working.

            I’ll add to that; if you have wwwh deciphered… there seems to be more about it than just knowing what it refers to… which leads me to believe… their is more to this than simple deciphering of clue references… they need to lead us… how that is done -?-,”

            I can agree to this, because….

            My solve of WWWH, was helpful in the remaining 8….but…..once decided upon as it seems, I sort of married the poem to a geographical location….which in turn allowed me to revisit WWWH and implications it could have on other clues. And then sort of worked in parallel.

            Is that what you are trying to say?

    • okay Aaron….thanks…..

      So you think YNP is still viable considering the legal issues that may be involved.

      I take it you have a plan of attack if its there?

  15. Here
    Let me ask a question
    And if people who’ve been around a while want to chime in all the better;

    If “where warm waters halt” is a Clue, then What Exactly is the Clue? AND don’t forget the preamble; “Begin it”
    Is this a Clue by itself or part of WWWH.

    Do we end up going in the direction of the warm waters or away from the warm waters?

    If it’s a hot spring of some kind does it halt at its origin or in the clouds when it evaporates?

    What makes them warm; temperature, fishing rights, proximity to the treasure, to the touch or to the law, to a brown trout or to a person, are they warm due to elevation or due to Longitude.

    And finally how would any of these answers yield an exact starting point for our search???


    • GCG-
      In my opinion the first stanza tells us where WWWH is located. For many years I thought that the first stanza was describing the location of the chest. But now I believe it is describing the place we start.

      To begin, I am sure that WWWH is an actual place. I believe this because of many remarks Forrest has made about the clues in general and specifically about WWWH. Here is one:

      With a radio interview on the CBC there was the following exchange between the interviewer and Forrest-
      Interviewer: “I guess you have to know where the home of Brown is.”
      Forrest: “That’s right, and you have to know where warm waters halt.”
      (March 2014 http://lummifilm.com/blog/CBC2013.mp3)

      Forrest also made the following remark when asked a question on Jenny Kiles Blog-
      “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.”
      (August 2014 http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-questions-with-forrest-warm-waters-and-geography/)

      That last quote undermined my belief that WWWH had to be a unique place…if there are many of them then it is impossible for it to be unique. This brought me back again to the possibility that WWWH could be a thermal event.
      So now I had to discover a description in the poem that would tell me which thermal event…or if not a thermal event…what the heck it was.

      The realization that the first stanza could be describing WWWH and not the hidey place was a eureka moment for me and I became convinced that it was a thermal event and even which thermal event he was describing as I read that stanza over and over.

      That also gave me insight into how the poem could be constructed and how to use the other lines in the poem that do not contain clues..

      This fresh approach has not gotten me much further than I was two years ago but I do feel better about my limited understanding of the architecture of the poem and how to use it in a more complete way.

      However, I have not found the chest and I could still be completely wrong…but eureka moments are fun and it certainly made me feel more confident…

      • Thanks Dal! This may be a little off color, but – I just recited the first stanza in my head again and thought “where would Forrest go alone? – to take a bath, and with my treasures bold? – His family jewels?” So river bathing is best might be WWH. Did he mention where he bathed in TTOTC or only in TFTW? If only in TFTW, then I would disregard all of the above.
        This is not my area, but it is for a lot of others. This post could now compete with my dumbest or my most brilliant. Who knows. Sorry for these posts on nights I can’t sleep.

        • And hint of riches new and old – new (his children and generations to come) and old (his parents and previous generations). His memoirs is filled with the people he loved/loves.
          Just continuing the previous thought a little further.

        • I think that could be a viable interpretation of “treasures bold”… ala skinny dipping.

        • Why would you discount TFTW…it is advertised as “a hinting memoir”. Which I can only assume means there are hints in there.

          • I was just thinking that everything you need is in the book TTOTC. But, you are right, he could have put River Bathing is Best as a very good hint in TFTW. He talks about how humiliated he was when he had to take a bath with others in the cabin, so going alone in there (the Firehole) must have been very important to F.

      • i totally agree with the stanza one comment. How else could you narrow down a 4 state rocky mtn region enough to find the right wwh if all you have to go on is stanza one at that point? have to go in order right? so that stanza has to point us to an area, mtn range or something that contains the right wwh…imo

      • Dal must have read my book “Our Eureka Moments”. He didn’t skip the part about the first stanza to just look at the pretty pictures…lol.

      • Dal, To me, “riches new and old” as a general ‘then & now’ reference seems too trite and wasteful for a deep thinker & sparse poem. It must mean something specific… perhaps something bathing-adjacent, like modern showers v waterfalls & geyser spray?

        Why is a skylight flat over the shower IN THE PREFACE? Can Olgas 36” bathtub be anything but a shower? All that rain near Borders? Three SB’s about Fenn’s walk-in shower?

        Does ’halt’ support it? Old Faithful halts; a river confluence doesn’t.

        Is Sky Country the skylight flat above WY?

        Keep thinking deeply. I always enjoy your provocative thoughts. Good luck. OS2

        • OS2…another idea for Olga’s 36″ bathtub…36″ may be hinting to the width of a narrow gauge steam engine train track.

          • Could be, Sandy, but it’s a bathtub. Maybe if another word were associated to the 36″ in Olgas casita … like a box for a box car, or a back porch for a caboose, etc. My deep thoughts may not be as deep as yours. Give me a reason to consider a narrow gauge RR w/ Olga.

          • If I remeber correctly OS2…there were some tke on this….relating to a “basin”.

            Did you put that into the mix?


        • That could be JDA, Olgas story is about death & reunion, and a 36″ place might be big enough for the TC and a body.

          • Hi Tim, Yes, basins, sinks, washes etc are all in the mix, but rainbows in the light & mist have that temporary quality that ‘halt’ implies.

            Do you ever wonder why those women in IMP LIT are sniffering?

          • Sorry OS…acronyms to me are plentiful in the hut and in my real life…..sometimes all I see are letters and they don’t mean anything nowadays.

            IMP LIT is nothing to me, unless I know what the letters couold stand for.

            i.e – in my line of work….DRP = Direct Replenishment Procedure, yet others call it Direct Reorder Process

            Similar, yet two different process – one is a manual, one is an electronic.

            Maybe you can open up your “hint” a bit?


        • Tim. IMP-ortant LIT-erature, Opening chapter after the Preface in TTOTC … where the 3 novels are, Hemingway, Fitzgerald, Salinger… plus ‘store number one’, dirt, time, and so much mystery talk.

          • LOL

            Don’t I feel not-so important now!!



            Important literature……in the book…..gotcha…..

            But…..believe this or not……I rarely used the book. I truly wanted to see if I could make something happen with not using the book, but only the poem which I first found online, and prior to reading the book.

            Oh, I’ve read the book…..couldn’t set it down when I first got it. But after I read it…..maybe a couple of times…..afterwards…..I began my journey.

            So with limited use…..and only the poem, a good map, a bit of imagination, some backstory of Fenn, I jumped on “my horse” (I don’t own a horse – wife only dreams of one – so I bought her a 2002 Ford Mustang off the lot with 13 miles on it) and went looking for Forrest Fenn.

            This is not news to the site…..I literally immersed myself into a thinking mode.

            Some say my “remote viewing” technique is crazy as heck!….okay….let them think it….CIA didn’t.

            I found a viable WWWH because of me thinking like FF, nothing to do with re-reading the book hundreds of times….etc…..etc…..etc…..

            In truth…..I think I got lucky……*shrugs*….who knows….I still am on these blogs hunting for my next treasure “A-ha” moment.

            I’m now in “observing” mode to see what little nuggets surface out in the “Global Conciousness” – in which many, I think just can’t grasp at it yet.

            But yet it sits right in front of them, in so many ways!

            Even if I am just fine tuning the path…..I still think many have great ideas.

            Good luck OS! Good luck to us! Good luck to all.

      • Just remember, if you get the first two clues right….. that far trip down the canyon has fooled several searchers early in this chase….. so …. I’m out of advice at this point.

    • GCG
      There is a lot in this post and too few room to address it all but addressing the 1st question will go a long way for you to search out the rest. The newest, best resource is tarryscant.com to find historical fenn information.

      If “where warm waters halt” is a Clue, then What Exactly is the Clue? AND don’t forget the preamble; “Begin it”
      Is this a Clue by itself or part of WWWH.

      WWH is the 1st clue, Fenn has said so in an interview. Did we need Fenn to confirm Begin is the start, no, but there are those who refuse to see what is there until someone tells them something is there.
      The full clue is,
      Begin it where warm waters halt
      However what is “it”? There is a blog in the searchers discussion asking this, is it the chest, the search, the chase, something else?

      Decrypting the 1st clue could be something like, Start (the search) at the spot where warm waters (stop, pause, end, other, or not water at all according to others around here).

      Where can you find this spot? Read the book and see what may indicate wwwh to you and go from there.

      • Kira, thanks for the kind words on the tarryscant.com website – we have tried very hard to make it an easy-to-use research tool for The Chase. I took a new job, which has been quite demanding on my time, so I haven’t commented here on Dal’s for a while (I’ve always been more of a lurker anyway).

        I’ll give my thoughts on WWWH for the crew to share, dissect, and/or laugh me out of town.

        When coupled with the next line in the stanza (and take it in the canyon down), WWWH makes me envision a place of high altitude. As one goes up in elevation, waters become colder, until there is so little water, life becomes scarce. So for me, WWWH is a clue pointing to the “Alpine Tree Line” (which varies on local factors, but is usually under 10,200 ft).

        However, I second guess my interpretation of that all the time. Cheers!

      • Kira,

        I was sipping a very nice local Vodka last night when writing that WWWH question.

        Transitioning back to nightshift — ugh!

        Anyway it was largely rhetorical and intended to stir up/stimulate a list of possibilities that are distinctly in the “clue” department…

        When I first went about putting together a solve for the nine clues which made some logical sense and was in alignment with the few things I knew Forrest had said regarding the chase/challenge (as he says). I brainstormed a fairly lengthy list of “clue” possibilities or an Interpretative list versus a Literal list of say “warm water locations.”

        The alliteration nature of the phrase “where warm waters halt” just sounds like a classic riddle to me since as Dal so nicely quoted Forrest there are thousands of warm waters north of Santa Fe.

        To me something in the riddle should somehow “clue” us in to precisely which warm waters he’s talking about…Something has to point us to A place in the Rocky Mountains.

        This approach was extremely helpful and as Dal said allows the searcher to start somewhere, to frame a context, to put a stake into reality…

        From this position (right or wrong) it is possible to test hypothesis and build a relational understandings. The primary goal of this process (IMO) is to rule things out fast, to narrow the field and put together something that is highly plausible based solely on the info in the poem and TToTC versus hunches. You can’t leave the poem!

        Anyway Kira, I have been looking at Tarryscant – very nice resource site.

        Every comment you have made that I’ve read possess a lucidness, to which I believe Forrest would say,”who is that person… … you better watch them?”

        Lastly, the second Stanza is unique in the poem in that its first 3 lines (lines 5 to 7) are distinquished as a single sentence and there is no comma between the line 5 and 6… Hmmm!

        I will suggest to the forum there is more to interpreting the poem than viewing line 5’s clue entirely by itself precisely because the poem says in plain english:

        Begin it… …
        And take it… …


        • GCG
          Rhetorical is clear as black and white.
          I dont believe the poem does give a hint as to how to find wwwh or help with any other clue.
          How does that work when all you need is the poem right? I believe Fenn rule 26 is the answer.
          “If you don’t know where to search, any trail will take you there.”
          I could give a lecture and quiz on particple physics and its possible to get the quiz right, but if I also said you needed a book as a guide, do you think you can still pass the quiz with just my lecture? I didnt lecture from the book afterall.
          For me, Begin is start and cease is stop and in between is the 9 clues.
          If only I had time and money to get out there to test my ideas.
          Thanks for the nice words.

          • I’m sorry Kira I can not follow your logic:

            Clue #1, according to Forrest is, “Begin it where warm waters halt…etc.”

            Forrest has said (paraphrasing) All you need is the poem.

            Just taking clue #1 by itself, there are no instructions as to WHERE to begin, except “Where warm waters halt” – and there could be thousands of these in the mountains north of Santa Fe.

            Therefore, there MUST be some more information hidden within the poem that can direct us to the correct wwwh – or so it seems to me – Otherwise it is all one big guessing game or dart-throwing contest, and I am sure that neither of these is the case.

            Logic, therefore, tells me that somewhere hidden within the poem are instructions (hints) that MUST direct the searcher to the correct wwwh.

            Can you help me understand your logic? Just askin’ – JDA

          • JDA
            I included my reasoning in the post above with using a lecture/quiz which equals the poem/treasure as the example.
            Fenn rule 26 also shows Fenn logic in regard to tjhe comment of just the poem is needed.
            The reference material is what will get you there imo.
            Simply, you need the book to solve the poem.

          • I believe Forrest has said something to the effect of ” the searcher won’t know if wwh is correct until they get to the end”. I take this to mean once you’ve found a good wwh, the following clues will present themselves ( on a good map) in succession.

          • Kari,
            Fenn stated you don’t need to read the book… You need to read the poem.

            But the book will help.

          • Kira wrote, “‘Fenn rule 26 is the answer.
            “If you don’t know where to search, any trail will take you there.”'”

            …because no trail will take you to the treasure, IMO

          • Lady V
            There is more meaning to this rule than that
            This is essentially an Alice in Wonderland phrase/quote.
            (Not a perfect copy of the text)
            “Alice came to a fork in the road and saw a cheshire cat in the tree.
            Which road do I take? She asks.
            Where do you want to go? The cat asked.
            I don’t know, replied Alice.
            Then, said the cat, it doesn’t matter.
            So long as I get SOMEWHERE,’ Alice added as an explanation.
            Oh, you’re sure to do that, said the Cat, ‘if you only walk long enough.”

            Either road will take her to where she is going, just as any trail will take a searcher where they dont know where to go.

          • Kira,

            I don’t know how far down this thread, this comment will post so I’ll include the your phrase of concern;
            “I don’t believe the poem does give a hint as to how to find wwwh or help with any other clue.”

            Forrest, says that everything is in the poem and in plain sight for everyone to see. Along with a large number of other quotes that says the poem can be enough on it’s own to lead a searcher to the treasure…

            Note however that Forrest also says, that his book Thrill of The Chase and the poem is enough to lead a person of average intelligence to the treasure…

            So Forrest is saying that its possible to pass the quiz with just the poem (lecture) however its going to be easier if you also read the course material..

            I solved the poem, initially, only using the poem but will admit that several wrong ideas and assumptions with a bit of luck, finally got me to WWWH…

            However afterwards, I ordered the book and it significantly corroborated my solutions.

            The poem provides enough information to find the Treasure provided you use it in conjunction with a “good map.” So I agree, the poem by itself, without maps of areas in the Rocky Mountains or without a photographic memory of the right area in the Rocky Mountains – would be useless but Forrest has said explicitly how the poems clues should be applied; on a map, in geographical locations.


          • If you use ATF info, such as “there could be thousands of these in the mountains north of Santa Fe”, why not use the story of River Bathing. That story was on his web site long before it came to us by the book, TFTW.

          • If you use ATF info, such as “there could be thousands of these in the mountains north of Santa Fe”, why not use the story of River Bathing. That story was on his web site long before it came to us by the book, TFTW.

            Ok, now, is it the exact one. Maybe. Maybe not….. but it at least let’s us know the characteristic of one halting warm waters. This being on his web site way back is why early in this chase, the first two clues were solved.

          • Musstag-
            I agree. But in my opinion the poem’s first stanza also tells us which thermal event is the WWWH.

            For years I thought the first stanza was describing the hidey place…the place where the chest is hidden.

            But a few months ago I had a Eureka moment and saw that the first stanza could very well be describing WWWH and not the hidey place. Others on this blog have voiced that idea for years…but I didn’t fall in line with their thinking…

            If that is true I think that first stanza also tells us which one of the “thousands” of thermal events in the RMs north of Santa Fe is our WWWH…no map needed…but some knowledge of geography would help…

            I hope I’m right…I plan to be using that WWWH this summer…unless I have another Eureka moment…or spontaneously combust from over thinking… 🙂

          • “For years I thought the first stanza was describing the hidey place…the place where the chest is hidden.
            But a few months ago I had a Eureka moment and saw that the first stanza could very well be describing WWWH and not the hidey place.”

            “And with my treasures bold”.
            Skinny dipping instead of taking the chest.
            I’m open to either option.

          • Did ff say, you must find the correct one (wwwh)? That bothers me, because there are seemling away at least several in the area…. have not found anything all by itself…. any ideas on this?

          • Musstag,
            Its a maze that has thousands of start points.
            A maze that doesn’t show the end.
            And you have to follow the correct path for 9 points that are unknown turns.
            So yes, you need to correct wwwh, but Fenn also says the clues are to be followed in order and they get easier as you go.

          • It bothers me that , lets say the TC is at Ghost village.
            I could pick a spring on the Fiirehole river, or one on the Gibens river, or Bakers hole deep cold water for a ‘wwwh’, and any of those might get me to the TC at Ghost village….?

          • Kira – “…clues are to be followed in order and they get easier as you go”. I think that’s an understatement although I believe that ff said it.

            Nothing about this has gotten easier along the way. Except it may be easier to go crazy!

          • HaHa, cute, but you know my point. I guess if you think a hot spring is the wwwh, and ff sez there are many, and ff sez you need the right one, then the one he bathed in alone at the Firehole is a good one, afterall it may be the last ‘Named’ hot spring on the Firehole . I know there is another down stream. But it may not be named, but maybe it is. Maybe ww do halt at the Madison.

      • Begin is the beginning. Remember how Forrest said to start at the beginning? There is a hwy in jerusalem called begin. It is hwy 50. So let’s start with that, the beginning. then “IT” I believe this to mean “The Chase” so begin the chase at Hwy 50. Well where on hwy 50? Well let’s look at the next couple words .. “WHERE WARM” another word for warm is “CHAFE” ok so hwy 50, Chaffee County, CO. Next “waters halt. “. Another word for “halt “ is Junction. So we are looking for a junction on the water in Chaffee county, Hwy 50. = Heckla Junction. Coincidence that is the south border of Browns Canyon ….. and that’s all I am gunna say for now…. hehe

        • On pg 48 in TTOTC, the end of the first paragraph the words canyon and brown appear in the same order as the poem. With a sentence between and also her refers to washing dishes and having to dip in scalding water….. “put in” , “dip in” mean the same thing … coincidences?

    • Hi GCG: to answer your question (though I certainly haven’t been around as long as many here), it sounds like you want to know if people think WWWH by itself is the sum and substance of the first clue (i.e. a geographic point), or if perhaps the first clue is both a location and a direction of travel (i.e. a vector = point plus direction). I favor the first option, mostly because Forrest has said you need to figure out where warm waters halt, as opposed to “where warm waters halt ~and~ which direction to go.” Also, there is the oft-quoted line: “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did.” It would seem these multiple clues refer to multiple places (though I note that this doesn’t necessarily mean one clue can’t refer to multiple places, or more than one clue can’t refer to the same place.)

      About warm waters, you asked: “What makes them warm; temperature, fishing rights, proximity to the treasure, to the touch or to the law, to a brown trout or to a person, are they warm due to elevation or due to Longitude.” I’ll go with temperature as being what Forrest is referring to when he says warm.

      “And finally how would any of these answers yield an exact starting point for our search???”

      Those answers wouldn’t. Too many choices, and no way to select among them without more information beyond the description “where warm waters halt.” But in my opinion, Forrest provides that missing information in the poem more than once.

      • Zap,

        Hopefully you read my reply to Kira and my intent just to spark a conversation around WWWH as a clue as a riddle perhaps.

        This worked for me, in combination with the book TToTC to provide a couple supporting major hints to corroborate the interpretation of the clue and its literal meaning…

        And I can be even more specific here. I have never once made an exhaustive list of thermal waters in the Rocky Mountains this way of approaching the puzzle has little appeal to me.

        Cowlazars vlog once proposed the idea of methodically putting together a list of canyons in the Rockies but I find this only slightly less daunting and still not in the spirit of the chase or the challenge (IMO)…

        Forrest has said a literal sense the poem is in plain English and so I have taken him at his word and also believe that “warm” is warm and referring to temperature. But let’s say this is correct and he is referring to where literal warm thermal waters in the Rockies come to a stop But what is the hidden or figurative meaning of the 5th line in the poem which would narrow the field or provide a searcher with some idea that they had discovered the correct warm waters?

        For example: so I have heard others say we need to use an absolute literal reading of the poem so, Begin “IT” with were warm waters halt therefore the first clue requires the searcher to begin the word “IT” with the last letter of waters or “S” and the First clue in the chase is: SIT

        Then: And take “IT” or perhaps the clue word “SIT”
        in the canyon down. So using a literal reading a searcher might then like a crossword puzzle place it up and down somewhere through the word “canyon.” This could then give us Clue #2 perhaps through the “A” for “SITA” or “NSIT” if through the “N” if you think “in” means “N” in canyon.

        Just as an example.


        • Taking my example above another step further (just for fun).

          I could then say that line 7: Not far but too far to walk is filler and the next step in my word puzzle is the Put in below the home of Brown.

          Therefore the literal home of the word Brown is its first letter “B” and that is why he capitalized it. So he said, Put “iN” below the “B” which means the word from the previous 2 clues was in fact NSIT, so no for Clue #3 we have the strange word or acronym: BNSIT

          GCG (just having fun but this could in theory provide us the exact WWWH location)

          • As a note here; this is a good exercise because it forces us to think about the poem from all angles, just as Forrest did over the 15 years he refined it.

            Forrest once chastised Dal for not recognizing how, his apparent ridiculous hint of “300 miles west of Toledo,” could have many interpretation and been a real hint…


          • Simple wwwh IMO.
            Just as simple as snow melting
            Rain fall come to a halt in the canyon down in the summer these ww comes to a halt in these canyons.

        • Oh oh! The no code, no ciphers police will be coming down soon. You better run and hide gcg…

          • GCG: re 300 miles W of Toledo, it’s 298 miles from Toledo to Sandwich, IL, 294 to Sheridan, IL, 287 to Gardner, IL, and (my favorite) 321 to Forrest, IL …LOL….

        • Hi GCG: re: “I have never once made an exhaustive list of thermal waters in the Rocky Mountains this way of approaching the puzzle has little appeal to me.”

          I concur. It’s a waste of time (and I should know — I spent over 1000 hours doing that for Montana, Wyoming and Colorado).

          “Cowlazars vlog once proposed the idea of methodically putting together a list of canyons in the Rockies but I find this only slightly less daunting and still not in the spirit of the chase or the challenge (IMO)…”

          Another unworkable idea. These brute force approaches don’t even look good on paper, let alone in practice.

          “… I have taken him at his word and also believe that “warm” is warm and referring to temperature.”

          We’re on the same page there.

          “But let’s say this is correct and he is referring to where literal warm thermal waters in the Rockies come to a stop.”

          That’s one assumption. But I don’t think it’s the right one.

          “But what is the hidden or figurative meaning of the 5th line in the poem which would narrow the field or provide a searcher with some idea that they had discovered the correct warm waters?”

          Ahh! That is indeed the million dollar question. Your example word-game of taking the last letter of waters and beginning the word IT with it to form SIT I believe has been suggested before. Similarly, someone once upon a time posited that “Put in below the home of Brown” could be taken literally, a la:


          These are not unreasonable ideas to try; at least they’re a little off the well-worn path of hot or warm springs emptying into cold rivers.

        • IMHO its trail and error, there is no pointing out by the poem of which WW to use, but the story River Bathing is best, gives an example of the characteristic of a wwh.

  16. Some are convinced that the location of WWWH is found in the fishing regulations for the state of New Mexico. Does anyone know of a reference in the TTOTC or elsewhere that quotes Fenn talking about fishing in New Mexico? Lots of references about fishing, but I can’t find any about fishing in New Mexico. Doubt that he is familiar with NM regs. I looked at the online version of the regs and noted that they have separate laws for warm waters and trout waters. Warm waters are all waters that aren’t designated as trout waters. How someone can come up with a place WWWH from the regs is a bigger mystery to me than the location of the treasure.

    • Strait,
      I agree… I have been thru the NM “Warm Waters” definition with what I believe to be a fine toothed comb.

      I find it interesting that the “metes and bounds” description of trout waters (a.k.a. NOT warm waters) is nearly identical to the “highlighted region of the TFTW map”.

      I found 1 small exception at Maxwell Lake 13, but that area is not in the mountains (just east of Cimarron, NM)

      Perhaps I missed something, but I have personally discarded the NM Warm Waters definition from having any relevancy to the TTOTC.

      All in my humble opinion!


    • Hi Strait, In the Regs. warm waters are waters, with a temperature, above 74 degrees F.

  17. Strait,

    One river that you can cancel out. At the top of this thread click on Safety First

  18. Hi All , Hi Dal … =)

    Im not saying a thing Nothing about this …. Notta.

    No Lo Contendre

    Again my opinion is – Halt dose not mean stop .

    It means to hold and await orders . Stop and be ready

    Not stopped permanently .

    What do I know =)

    • The sun does. (I know, duh) but most waters unless very shallow have the warmth “halt” ‘at the bottom’. I think there’s even a specific dept where sun is only able to penetrate at a low enough percent that anything below that depth is considered cold. Not sure all the intricacies though.

      • Oh, and in commercial dishwashers / food health scenarios dishes are required to go through a “hot” rice cycle. Water is considered ‘warm’ until the 144° mark where its then ‘hot’. Coincidentally inside two of the postmark in TTOTC are 144 and TEMP. Ive often thought this could be the type of ‘hint’ that would be useless out of context (wouldnt get one closer without the poem) as well as the clue IN the poem could be solved without the ‘hint’, yet together seem to have, but who knows.

          • Also when you mix equal parts hydrate of sodium (brine/ lye) with water like when making old school soap like F talks about his mom making the boiling point is 141° cSo it seems F would have known both these things both being a dishwasher and watching Lillie, though not necessarily what the poem says. Just examples outside of fishing.

          • I dont know how laundry temps work….I’d assume maybe cooler with fabrics ans color
            and stuff, but could be. I just know dishwashing from having a bar. If the ‘hot’ rinse goes below 141 the heater kicks on to keeo it out of ‘warm’ and in the ‘hot’ range . Did F talk about laundry somewhere?

    • Michael,
      What is your physical temperature?

      IF, there’s not real / true consensus of what warm for water can actually be, temperature wise, not fluctuation… Then logically, warm is basically liquid water… which gives two options for halt, steam or frozen states.
      Or the interpretation, is something different.
      What I mean by that… can the poem be talking about seasonal change?
      Begin when the location has frozen waters [winter] and canyon down refer to [spring]. Below hoB being the tree line [ not all exact tree lines, just the local ]… from there is woodland and it’s inhabitants [Summer, as thing bloom and animals wander ~the wiles of nature] the end is ever/always drawing near/nigh [ fall is around the corner ]… etc. The concept is seeing the place for the first time, in all it stages of “riches.” The line of thinking here is spring as birth.. fall as near the end.. winter hibernation and back to rebirth once more in spring. The big picture? {summer hunt season}

      The problem with this idea is location location location… Most folks want a clear answer to each clue. ~ wwwh is this and that is all there is… HoB is that and this all it is. I don’t think that happens until the full solve is understood…

      While each clue can be deciphered [ that has been done for at least two and possibly four clues, in the correct order ] It seems to fall down to how those clues work with each other… That might give us the big picture idea.

      I can’t help to think that this is not an ‘A Typical’ map quest we need to follow…even when married to a map… it doesn’t seem to be; start here at the sign that says; ‘you are here’ continue by following a dotted line to a waterhole, shimmy down a canyon, turn at a brown cabin, pass through a graveyard until your at a mountain lake, idea.
      Whatever wwwh is, it’s more than likely its a reference that we all know of, but we all don’t see it’s connection to why we need to understand it.

      • Seeker,
        This in my way of looking at the poem, is pretty good thinking however you might be overcooking his poem just a bit (interesting choice of words Forrest used there; “don’t overcook my poem.” )

        He has used the word “recipe” also to describe how to solve the poems clues or how to view them.


        • GCG,
          All that, was an example of how the poem might need to be thought out…not so much the seasonal idea, but as the connection idea.
          Contiguous means touching… it could be in the literal sense as being side by side, or in an order of baking a cake… add an ingredient wrong, or too little or too much heat, blah blah blah, and the chocolate supreme cake just became an upside down cake.

          IMO the clue are connected, and not so much by a dirt path, but a path just the same.
          The thing is… when using a recipe… there is always a binding agent. I’m looking for that. Is it the “word that is key”? Is it that “important possibility” nobody seems to know? Is more adjusting needed to be considered? Do we need to adjust anything along the way-?- to get our ducks in order, even with deciphered clues.

          Whatever the kicker is… imo, field work has more to do with planning and observation, than just stomping point to point. Fenn followed the clue “IMO” ~ because he had to, to complete ( completed ) the task.

          • Forrest followed the clues like any good pilot would do.

            Its a “dry run.”

            I write procedure from time to time and before they can be implemented they have to get a full “walk-through” by someone who is qualified prior to it being approved.

            Forrest did his own walk-through of the procedure he wrote.

            Your comments made me realize something though, I had forgot about the word, “contiguous.”

            Another word people should be thinking about is “Correct” as in a “Correct Solve.”

            Forrest invented this term to differentiate from a “General Solve”

            I find “Correct” to be an interesting choice for describing the solve which will get you to within say 15 feet of the treasure…


          • That’s good logic….didn’t FF say something like….if we were with a viewing spot of about “12 feet” – we could see something that flags us we found the chest?

            Just thinking out loud.

            Good luck.

          • GCG,
            I’m not sure you can call it a dry run… he said he followed the clues when he ‘hid the chest’
            The idea of a dry run is to see prior that something will work properly.
            I think fenn executed the clues as we are told to… we just haven’t figured that out yet.
            The idea of knowing or having certainty of the path “beforehand” [ I don’t think ] means mapping it out is all that is needed… I think the idea is we need to utilize the clues… A few things come to mind;
            Triangulation for example; while some call this special knowledge, I say ya’ll should have the basic understand of how that works by now, even school kids… especially kids, not a child.
            An alignment; that is just an observation which we are to we need to observe… I doubt that means looking on GE and making up a bend in a water way to mean it’s an omega design.
            Another thought is calculations or math; Folks are looking for an unknown distance, or I should say, not easily seen/understood distance. When one thought could be that each step of the way is the same distance, idea.

            Start at wwwh and to the next clue… the first two clues… the distance between them [ not far ] might be the distance between the next and the next clues, and only able to be done in the field. The concept of the line to mean.. each clues is not far apart but all the clues combine equals a full distance need to be covered. It could also mean; the distance between the first nailed down clue to the next clue is now doubled for the third clue and the next [ physical places of clues ]
            [I’m not thrilled with the last idea… but it is a possibility and precise [precisely?] followed.

            Example; IF you have 9 places 100′ apart that’s 900′ total. IF you have only 3 or 4 places and they are 500′ apart you cover an area of 1500 or 2000′.

            There are many option’s fenn could have used that required him to [ for lack of a better term ] step out clues or watch how a clue progress. I just don’t think this is a typical follow the dotted line treasure hunt… In Fact… for me, this is not a “treasure” hunt at all… this is more like a survey to find a single point. The trove is just the fishing jigger in a tackle box. We’re looking for the fishing hole.

          • Hi Seeker.

            Your method is similar to what I have.

            For me…Numerology helped in that
            the number 3 became involved.

            My total distance is divided by a new concept some one mentioned recently…four blazes.

            For me….are there four blazes beginning at WWWH….or do I move to my first spot, and look for the four blazes to start then.

            Maybe only 3 blazes is the target, and I could be understanding my theory incorrectly. It is another question on the list I haven’t checked marked yet….of many…..LOL

            BOTG!! Yep…that is what I have decided upon.

            Walk the path…

          • GCG,
            You also mentioned the general solve comment. When I read the guidline about walking twice to out “solve” a solve means a completed task. General solve means ‘certainty beforehand’
            BUT the word ‘solve’ might also indicate the place itself. We’re told to marry the clues to “A Place” on A Map… why A Place and not marry the clues to ‘places’ on a map, like many are doing with miles between clues.

            We need to be able to make two trips “to our solve” a singular “place.”
            Folks call the poem vague and look for answers somewhere else… IMO. the poem was designed to do that… this is not a walk in the park. I think we need to work this puppy all the way to the end… figure out the blueprint and build off of it in the field work.

            End of commentary.

          • I agree with Seeker.

            We are looking for one place and not multiple places with distance between them.


          • Tim;

            I believe that this is the quote that you were referencing: ““I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.” – JDA

          • Hi Lug: nope, multiple places in my opinion. And you will hit them all in order, unavoidably, just as Forrest did. In other words, there is no short cut. It’s the only ~realistic~ way to get there.

          • Zap

            You drive from WWH to the next clue isn’t that correct?
            You exit the car at the 2nd or 3rd clue?

            How long is you distance in the car can you say? Miles?
            If so I will look forward to hearing how one drives miles and yet there can be no other way in. What is the Fenn Quote?

            There is no other way as far as I know??


          • Tim,
            He couldn’t imagine a searcher within 12′ and not find the chest… no flags waving or ticker-tape parade, no bells and whistle.
            He also said it you can find the blaze the distance to the chest would be obvious. The only possible flagger would be the blaze, i would imagine.

            It kinda gives the impression the chest and the blaze, are in view of each other, and possibly, close to each other… But close in a judgement call. fenn never put a distance on the two in any ATF that I’m aware of.

          • Okay…thanks for responding.

            I have a plan.


            You hope Ronnie isn’t listening…..

          • Zap ~’…multiple places in my opinion… It’s the only ~realistic~ way to get there.’

            What is realistic or the only way about it?
            Lets go over a few things that have been stated…
            Marry the clues [ plural ] to a place [ singular, not places ] I highly doubt a place is a very large area… clues can be in a small area and fit the descriptions we read.. its all about perception.
            IF hoB relates to the treasure in such a way that it can’t be a structure, and it appears to have clues in-between hoB and the chest… it’s likely that the clues could be close.
            fenn tells us to walk to our ‘solve’ in several hours, twice. And tell us he walked to the hide twice, from his car. Then tells us he followed the clues… There seems to be a separation between following the clues to the hide and traveling from the car to the hide.
            Scenario; he leave his vehicle walks a distance to where all the clues are, in a small area, follows what they refer to, to the hide… leaves and repeats for the second trip.

            What is it about any of the above that is not realistic? and keeps within the usage of wording fenn used… Clues to a place… walked to the hide and followed the clue when he hid the chest… walked less than a few miles, from his car.

            Can you call the idea of driving from one clue to another [ any distance ] and doing that twice, realistic to his comments? or the idea he states ‘clues to a place’ and not places. and if I add, if you’re walking long distances you’re walking too far comment…

            I’m not saying each clue that is a physical reference is not a place… I’m talking about the scale of the location that fits best to what we are told. I think the entire clue area could be 1000′ give or take [ just the location, the hike to it could be more ]
            How big of an area does your clues reference take up?

          • Seeker;

            I quite agree with you, the final set of clues are within about 1,000′ – And I agree that the hike to this “Clue Area” could be more than 1,000′ JMO JDA

          • Seeker asks: “What is realistic or the only way about it?”

            I’m just saying that for my solution, there is only one sensible, non-outrageous, safe way to get there (e.g. no helicopters, parachutes, ziplines, submarines, powerboats, etc.)

            “I highly doubt a place is a very large area…”

            Mine isn’t. And HoB isn’t a structure. None of my clues are structures.

            “fenn tells us to walk to our ‘solve’ in several hours, twice.”

            Easily done.

            “And tell(s) us he walked to the hide twice, from his car.”

            Of course.

            “Then tells us he followed the clues…”

            Not necessarily all of them on foot, but most of them.

            “Scenario; he leave(s) his vehicle walks a distance to where all the clues are, in a small area, follows what they refer to, to the hide… leaves and repeats for the second trip. What is it about any of the above that is not realistic?”

            Nothing. The only difference in my case is that he doesn’t walk out ~all~ the clues, just most of them. This is our greatest point of disagreement — that you insist he walked all 9 clues, and I say he didn’t. That’s not to say that he ~couldn’t~ have physically walked all the clues, but in my case it would be silly — especially with 25-odd awkward pounds on my back for two of the four legs.

          • Zap,
            I don’t believe all 9 clues are walked out… in fact, I think there is only reference to 3 or 4 physical points. I just don’t think the point to having folks get out is to put them back into anything.
            In a couple of my earlier theories distance [ even thought it was much larger ] was not about walking or driving either… if was more about time and / or a section of land area that is need to be known of, by what it does for the RM’s system.

            You are working on an assumption theat one comment can be bent, because fenn didn’t add the words “ALL”… we know there’s 9 clues to be followed, and fenn said he followed the clues… The only difference between your theory and mine is… you substitute walking for driving to keep your solve intact.

            We have a time line [ it’s not an exact time line ] and we have a distance [ it’s not an exact distance]
            “walked less than a few miles twice”
            “done in one afternoon”
            And now, we have fenn saying he followed the clues.
            Following clues = walking to the hide = done in one afternoon… twice.

            Yet you are still insisting Not all the clues, only walked part of the full solve, You call this ‘our greatest disagreement… OK you can disagree on my examples related theories… but how can you disagree with fenn’s comments. Does he really need to add ALL the clues to mean 9 clues?
            Does he need to say walking doesn’t mean driving clues…

            I thought I was being head strong about wwwh being the factual first “clue” especially when there is a full stanza prior with information contained in it… But you can’t answer;
            “And tell(s) us he walked to the hide twice, from his car.”
            Of course.
            and still say he drove anywhere but to that one spot… to do that you’re imply fenn is being tricky about following clues ‘when he hid the chest’ vs. his action of doing the hiding of the chest.

            IF you are remotely correct, then the clues can stretch from NM all the way to the Canadian border or vice versa or from one side of a state to another… lol… do we ever get out of the dang vehicle to stretch are legs?

          • Seeker….this back and forth you are doing with yourself on what or what is not a clue, walking or driving the clues or not…..could be the reason why you still haven’t gone searching. I don’t know our teasons….maybe….

            You want to be sure of your Self first (“confidence”).

            I get it…trust me I do….I am very similar in your thinking, but how will you know the geography to determine distance, location, driving or whatever….if you don’t go at least once to your region? GE is not all encompassing.

            Trust me…I know. It had revealed one thing, but afterwards, while BOTG, it was very disappointing…..BUT…..I learned the lay of the land for my region….and built upon those errors.

            In my theory…..I do believe you need to know the lay of the land, with at least one time of BOTG.

            this is not even speaking on how to find the supposed blaze that supposedly will lead you directly to the treasure.

            That is a different topic altogether that IMO does require BOTG in order to find.

            Cheers and good luck…..put yourself into action mode!!

          • Seeker: “I don’t believe all 9 clues are walked out…”

            Based on your past body of work, I’m a bit shocked, but then again not really. I suspect you think it’s enough to “observe” some of the clues without physically traveling to them. And that’s fine.

            “… in fact, I think there is only reference to 3 or 4 physical points.”

            Are interpretations are not as contradictory as you might think.

            “I just don’t think the point to having folks get out is to put them back into anything.”

            Well, you’re going to have to get in a car to get there, so I don’t quite see your objection. Who cares if you knock of a few clues while still in the car that you’ve probably been in for hundreds of miles already?

            “You are working on an assumption that one comment can be bent, because fenn didn’t add the words “ALL”…”

            I’m not bending the comment at all: *you* are ADDING information to Forrest’s quote: you are replacing “the clues” with “the 9 clues.” That’s dangerous, because you’ve made a judgment call on what Forrest meant by “followed the clues.” Consider the alternative: if Forrest drove the first 2 clues and walked the final 7, do you really think he’s going to say “I followed the final 7 clues on foot”? That’s probably more information than he wants to reveal. He “followed the clues” says nothing about the method of transportation while doing so.

            “The only difference between your theory and mine is… you substitute walking for driving to keep your solve intact.”

            I substitute nothing, Seeker. Your interpretation is more restrictive than mine: you ~require~ walking all 9 clues (or perhaps more charitably, you do not ALLOW driving any of them) when Forrest has never said that’s what he did.

            “IF you are remotely correct, then the clues can stretch from NM all the way to the Canadian border or vice versa or from one side of a state to another… lol…”

            They could even start in Outer Mongolia for all I care — Forrest never said WWWH was in one of the four states that he has restricted the treasure chest to. (For my solution it is, but as far as I know there are no ATF statements that preclude WWWH from being anywhere in the world, or frankly anywhere in the universe.)

          • Zap –

            I don’t get it. You are posting this like it will make sense.

            Assuming when he said the clues Fenn was referring to all the clues is the obvious path. You have to go out of your way to Say that he meant only a portion of the clues.

            I side with Seeker and your contention that it is dangerous to assume he meant all 9 clues is crazy. It’s not dangerous. It’s the more fitting for the two considerations.

            That’s My opinion

          • Zap….I think…..

            Just my purist side of the brain thinking……

            Walking versus driving……the blaze can be found.

            “If you have been wise and found the blaze,”

            ….skip all the outside white noise..all the blog chatter about driving…..

            Bottom line is…after BIWWWH…..we need to find a canyon, a “hoB”, and then the blaze.

            It seems to me that this can only be done by walking.


            I’ve driven my route….I didnt/ couldn’t find any thing while driving and paying attention to the road….nor could my team. And I was looking hard for a blaze of some sort.

            To me…it just seems futile and you will never get to that “end” which is “drawing” closer.

            I just don’t see it happening.

            Good luck Z.

          • Lugnutz: I maintain that my reading of Forrest’s statement is less restrictive. But you and Seeker are certainly welcome to walk all the clues if you want the exercise, and choose to utterly ignore Forrest’s poem’s admonition that the next destination from WWWH is too far to walk. I guess you’re calling Dal crazy, too, for driving from WWWH?

          • Zap –

            To Far to Walk is a phrase that Fenn has used to mean that he won’t do something again. Today you can drive to Baker’s Hole and park within 50 yards. So when he says he would like to go but It’s To Far to Walk he means he won’t make the effort again at this stage in his life. Not Far, But Too Far to Walk means the exact opposite of what you are claiming. He is saying that it is not along distance, and regardless, he won’t do it again. Why? Because in the poem he is deceased. (as was the plan when he wrote it.)

            You can disagree but you should be able to see this.

            I believe this is at the very core of why you and previous searchers have walked by the other clues. The distance is too long.

            That’s my opinion and I think it’s a good one.


          • Did Dal drive from WWWH?

            Maybe I missed something in the blog, but when he went up Grayling Creek, I thought I read that they started from West Yellowstone, even though they considered Madison Junction as their WWWH. Am I wrong?

            Why would you have to act out in a literal maneuver what you have solved inside your mind and can be walked through mentally?

            Yes, I can envision geographical situations where one would HAVE to start physically at the beginning.

          • GCG;

            Have you given consideration to the idea that you both could be right? Maybe from wwwh to the END place there is only one road in-one road out, but from the End place, where you start hiking there could be a couple of different approaches.

            If you follow the clues precisely, I can see where there is only one way – BUT – if you plot these clues on a map, it might be possible to reverse engineer it and “enter from the back-side. It would not be as precise, possibly, but doable. Just my opinion – JDA

          • Tim Zeppelin,

            “GE is not all encompassing.”

            Understatement of the year.
            (yeah, only 10 days in)

            When I go Jeepin down in Canyonlands area and explore GE first, well… ha, it’s worlds apart.
            It’s great, though. I use it, regardless. It helps me recognize stuff before I have actually been there.

          • LOL….I just caught that snippet….

            I’m slow today…..10 days in….hehehe….

            I’ll check where I am in the standing on Monday….Trump is sure to knock me out in no time !!


          • Tim;

            Why were you or your team looking for a blaze while driving down the road? It would seem to me that since Forrest has said that in theory all nine clues can be solved from home, but that you need BotG to actually retrieve the chest – You should already know what the Blaze is. I know that for ALL of my solves, I have known, before BotG, what and where I would find the blaze.

            How can you “go with confidence” if you have to gawk out the window, or even scan the trail ahead, looking for a blaze? Doesn’t make sense to me, but what do I know? NADA – JDA

          • Hi JDA.

            I failed twice thinking I would find the blaze with my designated choice and target area.

            I really thought it would be a stand out after the first clue was discovered.

            I too, went in haste in some ways, but….I also had already decided upon the WWWH I would use – it was in place for me, so all I had to do now is just to marry the poem to the geography/lay of the land….for my region. Find the description inside the poem to something GE can zoom in and out into.

            Probability gave me choices. Statisics, well, they improved as well, of course with additional research, so I finally took another shot at it. Oh yeah..this all happened in a course of 2 years and after my 1st trip.

            Second trip allowed me to redefine some errors of the first trip….using all the same sources….I worked on where I went wrong – from marrying the poem to geography. That was last year…..nw 4+ years into it.

            I then understood my own thinking and techniques needed to be useful.

            I went into my esoterism/spiritual/meditation side of being – if you can say that. I perceived myself in my area and walking….looking….thinking…..imagining my Sunday drive through the mountains that I have spoken upon before.

            I was remote viewing in a sense of the technique (please do not go there)…..trying to experience myself in FF’s place years ago….what would he see….look for……do…..why……alll of these questions seem to show themselves. I answered them all.

            I found my way.

            Good luck.

          • Oh I understand your thinking.

            That is why I came home empty handed.

            I accepted that, BUT I was also willing to spend a little money on another trip to see if I could improve upon what I did find.

            Sort of like what you have said you did. Trial and error.

            I went too hastily. I honestly thought I would find the blaze. I didn’t. We had hoped.

            My wife gave me her two cents, knowing we could very well be looking for a needle in a haystack.

            It was only this past year did I really come up with a blaze. My next trip will test it out.

            I have a path, the blaze should be in that path. I drove twice without finding it, my next trek will be BOTG.

            If what I am searching for shows itself to me…,i know for sure, I will be able to use my General solve for how i,have designed it to work.

            Who knows, right?

            *Throws a dart at a map with already thousands of holes in it*

            Good luck.

          • Lugz ~’He is saying that it is not along distance, and regardless, he won’t do it again. Why? Because in the poem he is deceased.’

            I agree in part… I also think fenn made up his mind -, [ unless he changes his mind and cancels the challenge altogether by retrieving the chest himself, or an other, do it for him] – at some point, it will be too far to walk… so at age almost 80 he executed his final plan… never to go back… too far to walk might not be about a searcher as much as fenn. Because he ‘walked it’ out follwing the clues when he finalize the last steps, of the now challenge.

            Is this part of the reason he asked; “So why is it I must go and leave my trove…?” He will be too tired and weak [ age ] to accomplish the original plan if he didn’t act.

            I think we need to keep in mind, not only did fenn take more than a decade to write the poem… he changed it as required as time proceeded. We don’t know much about the original poem, so we don’t know what changes he truly made. However, we do know changes [in his cancer recovery, for example] that have happens since, and the book seemingly relays this… he waited as long as he could.

            “Indecision is the key to flexibility.”
            And I think some of the poem relates to that fact. “Done it tired and now I’m weak,” for me means… age will not allow him his original plan to unfold, nor ‘does it need to be’… and this challenge is now, “out of his hands.”

            Out of his hands one change to think about… because the original plan; was to keep it in his control [die on his own terms and not have cancer dictate it] and take it with him…

            Do the comments;
            Followed the clue to the hid before the poem was complete [ completed?] seem to read a little differently?
            Or He could have written the poem before he hid the chest, but he didn’t.

            Of course, I might be over thinking, again. End of commentary…

          • Seeker –

            Fenn is not deceased and he may not be deceased as the voice of the poem, we agree. He is saying he won’t go again for whatever reasons, he is lamenting. We may even say this is true of his whole memoir. He shares the memories and knows he can’t revisit them.

            I have spent the last 17 or so years trying to find a bunch of lost stuff from my childhood, like a lodge my family vacationed at in the 70s. I found the lodge but it’s not the same (emotionally) as it was when I was a kid. Being there again was great. My daughter won’t necessarily develop the same fondness of meaning that I attribute to that place.

            For those who care to know I am referring to Lake Lawn Resort in Delevan Wisconsin. When I was a kid I knew it as Lake Lawn Lodge.

            Here is a pic of how I remember it:

            We can never really go back


          • Big difference in our childhoods Lugnutz.

            I never went camping. Never went anywhere.

            That is why I dreamed of treasure hunting and those adventures.

            Never to Cedar point and it was right there for the taking….but I understood.

            ….Both parents struggling to raise six kids in a 980 sq ft home with no garage. That would be tough.

            We went to Sea World Sandusky once I remembered. Maybe when I was 8? Who knows.

            Oh the memories.

            Michigan…a place to visit…not to stay!!


          • Hi Lug — wow, this thread is skinny and long like that blasted olive jar. Might be a good idea to refresh it at the bottom if exchanges go on much longer.

            “To(o) Far to Walk is a phrase that Fenn has used to mean that he won’t do something again.”

            It certainly ~can~ mean that — a bridge too far. But in the context of the poem, it would at first glance seem that the searcher is already in motion: he or she has begun it (presumably their journey or quest) and “taken it in the canyon down.” Now perhaps you and Seeker are interpreting this beginning as strictly a mental exercise: you’re standing at WWWH, and instead of physically going anywhere, Forrest is instead saying something to the effect: follow these clues ~visually~. Allow your gaze to proceed down the canyon — not particularly far, but not a destination you will be driving, walking or physically going to. I can appreciate the attraction of such an interpretation.

            I simply choose a more literal interpretation of the poem. I think your main objection to my approach is that you feel nearly everyone has interpreted it that way, and has nothing to show for it; therefore it must be wrong. But the problem with that conclusion is that it doesn’t take into consideration that more than 99% of the tens of thousands of people who have tried this approach did so from the wrong WWWH. So naturally they failed — most of them weren’t even in the correct state.

            We’re not talking about a lot of people who have tried traveling the clues from the correct WWWH. But apparently all of them (or nearly all of them) hiccuped at this point. My solution provides a clear explanation for why that would be. You think they all went way too far, and on this I agree — just not for the reasons you think. People assign a distance to “Not far, but too far to walk.” IMO, as soon as they make this assumption, they set themselves up for failure. Forrest tries to impress upon searchers the importance of understanding the significance of the starting point, but instead they go racing down their canyon looking for a home of Brown, and *that* is why they fail.

          • Zap –

            We agree on much here. People start at WWH and go rushing don the canyon to HoB.

            We agree for different reasons.

            I changed my view of the line is question, Not Far But Too Far to Walk when I heard Fenn use the phrase when describing no going back to his fishing hole. Now it makes sense to me that way. It changes and has changed my entire perspective on the set of clues and the geographic locations that reference.

            I like my interpretation


      • To me warm water would be water above our body temperature but not hot enough to be uncomfortable.

        As far as the conditions for warm waters to halt you said either by freezing or steam. I am not sure if I can think of a condition where warm waters freeze. If they are normally warmed thermally then don’t they stay that way regardless of the temperature of the air? If they are shallow waters that is warmed by the sun in the summer then they would be cold before they freeze in the winter so this would be cold waters halting.

        Definately agree with your statement “Whatever wwwh is, it’s more than likely its a reference that we all know of, but we all don’t see it’s connection to why we need to understand it.” How to make that connection?

  19. IMO when reading Forrest’s poem warm seems to mean liquid temp and cold is not related to liquid temp. It might mean absence of full human emotional capacity? By design.

    • I totally agree with that line of thinking. I collect old inscribed books and lots have letters tucked inside. He almost always signed them “With warm regards” “Warmest personal regards” or “With warm thoughts”. I answered about the water because that’s how Mike asked it and was all I had to offer on physical water….but I’m more on the emotional meaning too. Just wish I knew where to go from there 🙂

      • We need to find out what WWWH means right? It is interesting that we can determine other meanings to warm such as comfortable or relate it to feelings but what can we do with the word waters? Is it that waters is in fact liquid waters and we can change up warm how we need to make it fit the poem?

        • Aaron, add the word halt [ to mean stop or change ] then water is no longer warm. It halted being warm… in this idea, we might not be looking for warm [water] at all… were looking for cold [frozen/ice/snow packed], or steam[ a gaseous state of water].

  20. My warm water will halt when I pass this vale.

    What percentage of the human body is water? Time for Google. I think it is high percentage. And when we run out of water, the vale is within reach.

  21. @ Cris L @ 10:44 AM
    AT LAT 40°, centeral CO,
    tree line usually @ approx
    11, 200 or higher, that of course
    lowers, the more N you go.

    • Thanks Batty! Agree w/ your insight into tree line elevation changing with latitude… also differs if north or south facing.

  22. A very batty ps,
    BETWEEN 42.5° N. LAT AND 44 °N Lat.
    approx. based on most N tree line in
    Alaska of about 69°, N lat

  23. psss corretion,,, 42.5 to 44. 5
    +-140 mi wide E-W strip,
    with Atlantic City, Wy &, Afton, Wy
    on the S. line,, and Cody, Wy, and approx.
    W. Yellowstone on the N. line.

  24. To me, the biggest stumbling block is imagination. A possible WWWH, is the only thing that I’ve found, that I feel I got from the clues in the poem. The only thing that feels like it has a grain of tangibility. Everything else seems to rely on imagination. Hypothetically, I can see where I can plug one thing imagined, into another thing imagined. But the problem is, I can’t see how to plug something that might be (tangible, into something, imagined). I don’t see anyway to make that connection.

    • James,

      Here’s how I approach that.

      Where do you imagine he would want to be laid to rest?
      How would he take us there?

      • Hi dukeCC, I get what your saying. In TTOTC, Mr. Fenn, mentions the deep white canyons in his fingers from washing the dishes. So I find White Canyon CO., and notice it’s below Pagosa Springs. So I read up on Pagosa Springs, a warm spring, called “the Mother of Springs”, because it’s the deepest, it looks like an Amen, moment for sure. But, not at all what I would imagine as FF’s final resting place. Too deep, too dark, too cold, And too remote in some way. He sprinkled Olga’s ashes, in the closest thing he could find to an eternal springtime. That’s the kind of place I think he would choose for himself. And most definitely, a place that gets occasional visitors. He’s a people person.

        • Hi James…..”he’s a people person”

          That is a wonderful way to say that…..I totally agree.

          The poem is for the people……yet if you really think about it……one individual will never forget it.

          *goes back to studying his WWWH*



        • James,

          “And most definitely, a place that gets occasional visitors. He’s a people person.”

          I believe he’s a people person, and there is that motivation behind this Chase. But I don’t believe his special place is visited. I believe it has some significance for him as a place to be alone, and it is only his.

          • Hi dukeCC, Mr. Fenn told us that searchers had been at the hiding place, but didn’t know it was the hiding place. What would have caused them to be there? He also said that people continue to arrive there. It sounds like a place that gets visitors, for some reason, other than the chase.

          • James;
            You say, “Mr. Fenn told us that searchers had been at the hiding place, but didn’t know it was the hiding place.” Will you please provide a quote where Forrest has said this? He has said that people have been within 200′ and 500′ – I do not consider this as Forrest saying that people have been “AT the hiding place.” relatively NEAR, but not “AT the hiding place.”

            Can you please provide the quote and/or clarify – Thanks – JDA

          • Well, Fenn didn’t word it quite like that… but… “within 200′ ” could be construed to be the hidey spot.

            He has also implied no one has given him the correct clues in order past the first two clues. Then says, some many have the first four clues in order but he’s uncertain…

            If you take those comments… It could be, that folks got that close to the chest even though they didn’t have the correct clues in the correct [precise] way the poem describes. But, the chest still lays in wait because the poem wasn’t completed as told or described.

            A 200 X 200 area is 40,000 sq feet. That is the size of my dogs fenced in pen. Almost the size of my neighbor’s barn… SO, if the blaze marks the exact hidden 10″ sq spot… is “with 200′ ” that far off, to consider it the hidey spot?
            Fenn did say one searcher would faint if they knew how close they were…

            This is why I say, not only should the poem lead a searcher to an exact 10″ sq. spot… but it is hidden so well, searchers that close [ without the full correct solve ] could walk right by and never stumble upon it… along with anyone else strolling by.

            Now, for example… this location is nothing but a stony area, yet overlooks woodland and animals… does the perception of the hidey spot look different in anyone’s mind?

            JDA, you like the stone marker idea… you are a stone sculptor… can you imagine a small place laid out with natural stone of many sizes, some even stack upon others, and not far is deep woodland and waters and animal wandering about… and attempt to find a stone marker among all the stone, if you don’t know exactly where it is? Would you even look there?

            James screwed up the comment a bit… but did it make anyone think about the possibles?

          • Seeker
            How do uou view Fenn comments wjen it comes to the search? Literal, figuratively, or something else?
            Someone that was 200 feet away could be either one.
            Do you see all Genn comments to be answered the same way or some combination?

          • Seeker;

            As you describe it, it would be pretty darned hard to spot. What do you know that we do not know? 🙂 JDA

          • Kira,
            I see a pattern of truthfulness in many comments Fenn makes… Some being years apart… Even if a couple seem to contradict each other at first, later with other comments there a flow of accuracy.

            My thoughts above involving what fenn did and his guidelines comments seem to say the area of the clues just can’t be miles apart. But to get around this and to keep a solution, some can’t let go of… Driving just became part of thier solves.

            We were told many moons ago there are no short cuts and as far as I’m concerned from fenn’s comments of following the clues and his time line… He didn’t take a short cut either.

            I’m open to anyone’s idea of how my thoughts don’t add up as explained… Just don’t say it doesn’t work that way in my solve as a debate of opinions.

            Use fenn’s ATFs to present examples and examples.

          • Seeker
            I believe you can be truthful using figurative speech.
            Fenn was asked what was the minmun number of clues needed to solve this. He responded, just the last one.
            Does this mean we only need the last clue or is it just an expression.
            Or his use of, a metal detector will only help if its right on top of it.
            Both are factual, but also figurative.

            Is a car needed? This will depend on which clue did he parked at.
            If the 1st clue, then how do you get pass not far but too far to walk?
            Is there 3, 5, 7 clues to drive to? I dont believe so. Start at 1, drive some and park, then hike, put the chest in a bag and leave YNP, if at YNP.

          • For what it’s worth I tend to believe all of the clues need to be walked possibly from WWWH but most likely at least by the second clue.

            We have: “the little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues.” To me this means either she has to be on site to walk out the clues from at least the second clue or there is something on site that makes her know to drive to the third clue.

            When asked about any other mode of transportation used when following the clues FF only answered by refusing to answer. I find his answering by not answering just as curious as his answers. In any case to me it sounds like he probably walked out all of the clues and answering this way would give too much away.

            I say all of this though to say that despite his statements of following the clues and a person being so close yet only determining the first clues he has not shut the door on driving from WWWH.

            FF said, and i’m paraphrasing when he heard the second stanza it sounded like 3 or 4 clues. I can’t say whether CD is the second clue, part of the first clue, or just a hint. The best potential for driving if any IMO would be from the first clue to the second or from the second to the third.

          • Hi Aaron….the logic is there….but then you have to consider the details within the words.

            Let’s look at the “ATIITCD” phrase.
            – single clue or just clue #1
            – double clue or clues #1 & 2
            – just a hint
            – nothing at all

            IMO – a clue will lead you to the trove.

            A hint will only help you to get to a hint.

            The poem, as a “purist”, is locked for clues and highly unlikely there are hints embedded. This is not to say I still believe there is a word that is key to its unlocking. But I have decided that there are only clues,in the poem. Now are there only 9 clues. I have stated there are eleven, but again, I’m being very specific I’m the quality of words being used.

            We have four options. Only. I cannot think of any others…Maybe you can.

            So, we now can analyze the poem, the choices above, and the meaning FF attributes, and if we can see something that is reflected within the TTotC and other interviews and writings to find clues or hints.

            Lots of differences that you really need to investigate, in order to, truly come to arealistic brainstorming idea on where to start.

            Its tough…trust me….and in truth…confirmation bias really is a stickler….so be careful.

            The question you need to ask yourself, as I did…..how difficult are these answers as compared to being “not impossible”.

            Good luck.

          • Sorry Aaron…typo.

            I wrote…
            A hint will only help you to get to a hint.

            Should have been…..

            “A hint will only help you to get to a clue.”

            Good luck.

          • This is too early for me. My apologies again…I didn’t even give you my theory on if it is a clue or not.

            I think…BIWWWHATIITCD are two clues.


            I read them both as a starting point and an action, thus, both will lead you to the treasure.

            Thus, both are considered clues to me.

            I think this is where I figure/add in one of my extra clues (of eleven) or how it comes into play.

            1 – BIWWWH – clue #1
            2 – ATIITCD – clue or combo clue with #1
            3 – NF,BTFTW – Hint or clue or both? I’ve had trouble with this from the gitgo, because it a so vague. IMO – it is the only one of the clues that actually mean some sort of distance????
            4 – PIBTHB. – clue
            5 – clue
            6 – clue
            7 – clue
            8 – clue (possible extra clue embedded – of eleven, unsure)
            9 – clue

            I still haven’t determined if an “action” that is built into the poem is a clue or a hint, because an action does both….hint towards a clue, but can lead you to the treasure.

            As you can see….each portion of the steps you take, involve multiple steps to achieve the resulting answer/clue.

            And that could be just for one word. Each word plays an importance (“don’t mess with my poem!!”) to the poem.

            *begins to pull hair from the sides of his head*

            CALGON TAKE ME AWAY!!!!!!

            I feel better now.

          • Good thoughts Tim. Hopefully you still have hair by the time you are done with this chase.

            IMO even after finding the chest we may not know what exactly a clue is in FF’s mind. The only one we really know about is WWWH. After finding that I intend to not label any lines as clue or hint but instead focus on the path it takes me on.

          • Tim
            Have you considered

            1 – BIWWWH – clue1
            2 – ATIITCD NF,BTFTW – clue2
            4 – PIBTHB. – clue3

          • I have…..NF,BTFTW to me was relative….and thus a bit descriptive to mean a place, so it had to do with travelling.

            With conjoining it to ATIITCD, it does appear to be telling you to drive….I don’t dispute this, but if we are to find a blaze, then driving to me, makes it harder.

            Thus…..I’ve chosen to walk the path…maybe have my wife drive along side me….just in case.

            I stay safe…she stays warm….we both arrive at my location together.

            Now….do I drive back?…darn tootin’ I will.

            Just am being sure I in the least…do what FF asked if us….FOLLOW THE CLUES…..

            if I can’t see them, I can’t follow them….you know what I mean?

          • Hi Seeker;

            You asked how the poem might say that driving, or something other than walking might be indicated.

            For me, the line, “Not far, but too far to walk” is the first key. This tells me that the distance between wwwh and hoB is “Too far to walk” – so drive, or use some mode of transportation other than your feet.

            “Put in, below the home of Brown.” Although “Put in” COULD mean something like put your boat in shore, and tie it to the dock – indicating the end of your alternate travel mode, I do not take it this way. I see “put in” more as a directional change. Continue “driving”, but take a different path, trail, or road from here.

            “From there…” this indicates that I must continue traveling – so if driving, continue to drive.

            “…it’s no place for the meek the end is EVER drawing nigh;”

            To me “no place for the meek, the END is EVER drawing nigh” seems like a continuous journey, with no interruptions. Nothing in these lines indicates that I should stop, So, if I am driving – keep on driving until you reach the END. Here, at the END, for me, is the place that the poem indicates one should stop driving, park, get out, and start hiking.

            I hope that you understand my logic.
            Start driving at wwwh, take it down the canyon because Forrest says it is too far to walk – put in (change directions) below hoB, but keep driving because the poem gives no indicators that one should do anything different. Pass the meek place, keep driving to the END – and since the poem says that this is the END – stop, get out of your vehicle, and start hiking. That is how I think the poem directs one to travel.

            Could one hike the entire distance? Sure, if you are young and full of spunk. Is it necessary to hike from hoB to END? It is a beautiful hike, but not necessary to hike it if you are young – I am not.


          • Seeker;

            Although it would match my solve, I will not say it. Looking at the poem alone, I would think that if one started at wwwh in a canoe or Kayak, my above post would work, Paddle from wwwh to END place – providing the found water course(s) would permit such travel – Just as in my driving post, of course, appropriate roads would have to exist. JDA

          • Kira,

            Even though I am not Tim….

            “1 – BIWWWH – clue1
            2 – ATIITCD NF,BTFTW – clue2
            4 – PIBTHB. – clue3”

            I am open to that, because I try to figure how to make room for “worth the cold” as a legitimate clue.

          • JDA,
            Coulda shoulda woulda… Where’s the boat coming from for put in? Is there a rental place near by? Will it be there in 100 years?

            BUT, you bring up a good point as to a water course solve. Which brings up a whole new set of problems… Why do we need to make two trips to “our solve” If all we need to really do is get close to the hide on a map?

            The clues seemingly can be deciphered ahead of time… what’s the point of being at wwh or a canyon or hob or HL or WH if we just have to drive as far as we can, on a map?

            Fenn said he followed the clues when he hid the chest… some want that to be only some clues on foot… because fenn didn’t say ALL the clues. My logical point / argument is; he never said he followed ‘some’ of the clues either, right? BUT we tells us we need to follow the clues… and walk several hours, twice or don’t go. Many like to think this is only a precaution so we don’t sprain our backs… Well for some of the more senior folks, this might be good advice… But I dare say a 42 lb backpack isn’t an impossible task… overnight or week long hikers do this all the time… making a one trip easliy done IF that is all there is about… two trips, and following clues.

            A quick check of google; The Modern Soldier’s Inventory. Today the average US soldier carries at least 60 pounds of gear, with an extended patrol often doubling that weight. Specialized warfighters, such as Automatic Riflemen, Combat Medics, and Special Operations can see totals much higher.
            60 or double [120]… grant you that is full supplies…
            Then fenn tells us; we might want to leave our partner in the car? Gee, id’ think he/she could help carry some of the load, right… I’m sure DG and the GA Clan, already have a plan on who carries what… that’s approx 14 lbs each. Or they can make a stick gurney and carry all their backpack and the trove with little effort.

            So fenn didn’t say “ALL” the clue and didn’t say SOME of the clues… he simply said “clues” But tells us we should be able to make two trips as well… Might there be a reason we’re not thinking hard enough to understand two trips could required-?- to follow the clues, in there?

            Just more rambling and rumbling…

          • “Why do we need to make two trips to “our solve””

            Will your next question be if we need to drive a sedan to solve ir?


          • IMO.The person that was within the 200ft of the TC passed the home of Brown.The people that as been within 500ft has not made it to the home of Brown.

        • Hi Seeker;

          Thanks for your response.

          Question about a boat – I mentioned a canoe or a kayak – a bit smaller than a boat. Many outdoorsmen have these items, or yes, they could be rented.

          Why the need for wwwh, canyon,or hoB if all you are going to do is drive? These places had to have been deciphered from the poem, to create a map so you would know where to drive. And, if there is only one road in/one road out – thus the need to drive in as I laid out in my earlier post.

          I still stand by my assertion that the hiking – two trips made in one afternoon – starts at the END spot and ends at where Indulgence is secreted. It just makes sense to me.

          I will always have at least one other person with me, and yes, we could construct a litter to carry out the 42 lbs in one trip – or even a travois – JDA

          • The main question that should be asked is if he followed all the clues in both trips? With all the ATF’s, any scenario is possible. If we just knew if he followed all the clues in both trips, then we would fully know.
            If he didn’t follow all the clues in the second trip, that leaves even more possibilities. That opens up driving and the one day scenario. If he followed all the clues both trips, that only leaves the option of different days.
            Since he does not explain the possible different ways to interpret what he is saying, we must look at all ways and make note, not just the one, popular way. An example is the Eric Sloane comment. He married housekeepers. If he didn’t give us the punch line, Most likely 99.9% of the people would think E. Sloane married women that cleaned houses, or kept up their house. But, f explains/gives punch line, they kept the house. If we are honest with ourselves, we realize that we would have been wrong in this situation. More likely than not, if we just take the interpretation of what he is saying as what would commonly be taken, then we would also be wrong.
            If someone has a walking distance of 4-6 miles, this is possible. If they just have a short walk, possible. If they drive 4-5 clues, possible. If walk from wwwh, possible. It’s just the need to marry all the ATF’s, and match them to a plausible scenario. This leaves the possibilities almost endless. f knows that a lot of what he has said can lead to multiple interpretations, he loves the fact, if he wanted us to truly know, he would tell us. We have to keep all angles in mind and not just the obvious.
            If you are going to use the “straight forward” excuse, just remember the E. Sloane example, that should give a person pause enough to not just take f’s words at face value.

  25. Has anyone thought that google earth could be WWWH? Outerspace. Start big and zoom in. Much like Thor jumping from wherever he reigns? Canyon down is zooming in. HOB is our first physical clue. WWWH is still the beginning, HOB is BOTG. Google earth was named by a 9 year old boy named Edward Kasner….where have we heard those two names before? WWWH=google earth. IT=zooooooooom! He’s always zooming around. This would indicate that you really only need to find two locations. HOB, Blaze, and chest. You need google earth a whole lotta luck.

    • that opens the search area a bit to wide for me but fun just the same ty waiting for warmer weather

  26. that opens the search area a bit to wide for me but fun just the same ty waiting for warmer weather good day all

    • Makes perfect sense. This is me working backwards. I am one of those crazy gals who believes she found the blaze before wwwh, but not before HOB. If that makes sense. The continental divide runs through HOB, also a possibility. Thanks for the response.

  27. Hi All, My bad, I just considered the 500/200 foot comment, close enough to be at the hiding place. Particularly so, when most searchers want more distance than that between there clues.

    • I wish that you were right. I feel that I might have been within 500′ a time or two. Sure wish that it had whistled or something – maybe even yelled out – HAY JD – I’m over here 🙂 JDA

  28. Jonesy, I saw your comment above about laundry and you asked if Forrest had commented about this anywhere else. Yes he has a couple of times with the most important one I feel is the comment on Jennys site when he was 1 year old. The experience he still remembers very distinctively yet today.

    “My Mom had a rub board on which she scrubbed our dirty clothes. It was before we had a washing machine. That work was done in what we called the “wash room” and it was outside our house by the garage.
    There was a small wooden stool in there also. It was about 7″high and my Mom used it sometimes when hanging wet clothes on a line. One time she saw me struggling to get on the stool so she lifted me on it and I giggled.”

    To me this is important. I know of very few people that remember an experience at one year of age that distinctively.

    I have analyzed this and see a lot of connections here with other things in the poem, scrapbooks and TTOTC and TFTW.
    This is what I get from this:
    He was 1. 1 is the loneliest number.
    Laundry. Queens Laundry in Yellowstone?
    Washing machine-agitation.
    A ” wash room ” outside the house by the garage that he would go in . Watershed
    Wooden stool-wooden legs
    Wet clothes- wet, wimpy, weak. Clothes-soft fabric
    Giggled- means nervous laughter, foolishness( there is the foolishness again!), and quiver or agitate. Humor.

    For other WWH people should consider Forrest said warm meant comfortable to him. Warm is comfortable, soft, gentle. Soft Water. Soft water is natural rainwater. When nutrients are added the water becomes Hard or chalk water.

    Another WWH to consider is Humor. Look up the word and see what humor meant in Medieval Times. Think quest and knight. Anyhow Humor is a sense. A smile, grin, laughter and also cold and warm fluids that flow thru the body. I may have said too much.

    • Another idea of WWH is like Lady pretty blanket. A blanket is warm. Covering is warm. A lot to think about here.

      • DPT;

        I also think that Lady Pretty Blanket, and the other statue describe two things that the finder of Indulgence will see as they near Indulgence. But I hallucinate a lot – JDA

    • The stool/chair stood out for me here. Think about Bessie as well. The bucket getting knocked over so she pulled her clubbed tail out from under him and he toppled. For me the stool is the “wood” the “perch” the “sentinels throne.” Good posts from all.

      • I like your use of the word “sentinels” – Think more about DPT’s second post, more than the first – 🙂 JDA

      • Good Evening Ms Copper –

        I am just not as quick some of my kin around here.
        What do you think the stool(s) could mean?


        • Good Evening Lug-you sound like a gentlemen. Great question. I don’t know. My brain works in patterns. There are many stools, brown backsides, and a need for washing. My final location has a perch. What I noticed about Bessie is that she swatted the flies so he tied her tail. Skippy had a fly catcher as well….where is that scrapbook. I can’t remember if poop was involved but if so it would make sense. It’s not to stool that’s so intriguing….it’s what/who I think is sitting on it. The whole thing stinks.

          • What is he buried it under a cow pie! That’s why you need gloves. Now that would be rad. If I see a preserved pile of scat I’m going in. I’m not afraid.

          • You win!!


            I’m not sure I am going in….LOL

            Sounds like another whole set of issues the finder will not have thought of….and them have to tackle….

            I hope they brought plastic sheeting and nose plugs!!!!


        • Lug, I think the stool is very important. But what it exactly means I am unsure of. His dad sits on the stool in TTOTC and look at the bottom of the stool and his dad’s heel in the drawings and also the stump with roots is like the stool, the wood.

          • True story.
            On my first BOTG trip my wife and I threaded the pass, following the clues and the map as I had interpreted them initially when finally we were getting close to the spot where I expected to find the literal Blaze which would mark the exact spot of the treasure chest… Well as we approached the stench of death wafted across us and I’m like, OMG! We haven’t heard from Forrest for a couple months now … because he’s gone and thrown his dying body on the Treasure with his last gasping breathe!!!!

            Well it turned out (thank God) it wasn’t Forrest but a huge dead rotting cow —exactly where I thought the TC would be!!!

            It had NO head and it kinda freaked us out … we didn’t get near it and made a wide circle around the Icabod carcass, keeping a wide eyed look out for predators!!!

            Anyhow we weren’t moving the thing to see if instead the sacred cow had thrown itself on the brass wonder!!!!

    • Dpt;

      Funny how we see different things in the same paragraphs.

      The things that jumped out at me were:
      1) rub board = corduroy texture – bumpy surface
      2) “Wash Room” – In quotation marks
      3) “Outside by the garage
      4) 7” high
      5) wet cloths
      6) struggling to get on the stool
      7) lifted me, and I giggled

      I wish that I could tell you why I think all of these things are important, but I fear that I would give away far too much. Suffice it to say that I think all 7 comments have to do with the final location of where Indulgence is secreted, and what one will find there. JMO – JDA

      • Yes, JDA. Good thinking on those as well. One thing I forgot to point out is the 7. Lucky number 7. The fortunate one.

    • DPT,

      You said, “For other WWH people should consider Forrest said warm meant comfortable to him.”, where is that comment, warm meant comfortable? Curious

    • DPT –

      If anyone here eve actually considers someone else’s solve, you may have said too much, but I doubt it.

      As I mentioned recently one searcher here uses a bath and/or laundry in Montana, another uses one in New Mexico, not the one in Yellowstone.


  29. “Begin it where warm waters halr” could be a starting point in history. The poem may have to do with oppression and discrimmination. “The Trail of Tears” ends in Oklahoma. Tears may be warm waters. This was the oppression and horrible suffering of the Indian people.

    The “canyon down” is the path to the next step in history “not far, but too far too walk”. In “Brown vs Board of Education” black children were being discrimminated against by being made to walk further to school than white children, who could use a bus. It wasn’t far, but too far to walk. Home of Brown may refer to the birth place or home of the person “Brown” in this landmark case.

    I throw this out as an alternate definition. One of my solves starts in Oklahoma and is based on history of oppression and those who grew strong because of it. Did you know the first black woman and financial success in Denver in the late 1800’s had the last name Brown?

        • Sparrow –

          I have spent many hours looking at the trail of tears and the other forced migrations and how the reservations were formed. There are many stains on the American tabletop.


      • Cris—

        Thanks. The person I was referring to by the way is named Clara Brown. She is really an amazing story if you get the chance read up on her (you can google her). Imagine a black woman in 1870 going to Denver and becoming financially successful! She didn’t let anything hold her back—-amazing story in my opinion. Check it out.

  30. GCG –

    We disagree on two things here.
    1. The no other way
    2. The idea that there is a Canyon to go down.

    When it comes to that 2. I gotta say that’s not very creative thinking. To just think he literally means to take something into a canyon.


    • Think, hwy 212. Temperature at which water boils. . . Cold canyon… near hoB if you believe in structures as that portion. Critical part of solve is located there as well.

      • Kal –

        If the answer to this riddle was Hwy 212 because water boils at 212 I think maybe this would have been solved by now.

        It’s good to think about these things, think about all the ways the poem can be read and interpreted.


        • water boils at 212 —at sea level. At 7500′ it’s around 198 degrees…I don’t think this is a hot lead, so to speak.

  31. Tim –

    I was just shocked to find out she like Zeppelin. She’s nuts for them and I had no idea.


  32. Those are great points GCG.

    Additionally…..I think as others have stated….the use of a “mirror” may help.

    Not necessarily in the manner you have a physical mirror, but when reviewing a map from one singular position, if viewed from the opposite side of the map (imagining it in a mirrored form)….well….you now have to read the map in the “reverse” it from a new view……what does this change in viewing do?,

    East is now on the left and west is on the right.

    As you can see.,.on a normal 2D map….east is on the Right and West is on the left….reversed.

    Just one of my ways I have defined in using a map for this treasure hunt….after all…”a good map” is required…..be imaginative with your map….something may click with you like the above….brainstorming is very critical.

    Good luck to you and others…

  33. I did not have time to read all the comments so forgive me if I am repeating something.
    I think it is important to remember that ff said WWH MANY PLACES IN THE ROCKY MTNS, AND MOST ARE NORTH OF SANTA FE. I still am convinced WWH is the Continental divide, and the first stanza clues us in to which WWH we are looking for…just my opinion.

    • FF say there are many wwwh north of Santa Fe.BGIWwwh ff tells us there are many IMO you have to know a canyon that represent a home of Brown and it has to be the right canyon you go down.

      • I agree. But the only way to find which WWH along the continental divide is the correct one, we need to know HOB right?

    • MichaelD,
      If you’re going to think that.. cooper below mentioned hoB…I’m not sure is that narrows it down enough. In your bold lettering.. all we knew was the mountains N.of SF. While the chest is not in Canada, the range is and so is the CD.

      In this kinda theory… you would have to consider some of the thoughts others have about distances between clues. Not driving them, but allowing them to lead you to a place.
      In this type of theory, My suggestion would be [ because of the huge area covered ] the clues should be on the CD to hold true that the clues, should be / might be, in order of following, and contiguous with each other.

      This would mean fenn followed the clues, only on paper, like we should be able to at home, and they ended up at a place that connects them all ~ naturally… and then parked as close as he could to the chest and walked to it. The problem with this theory is… Is the divide a region? or an idea of a clue that puts all the other clues together?
      Another words.. to know hoB or any other clue… you must know why the CD would be considered WWWH?

        • Hi Seeker, speaking of swarming…I need to talk to you. Did you all know that the upland areas surrounding the continental divide can be referred to as “benches?” I messaged you over at Kpro’s place. Have a nice evening everyone. Alaska is getting a whole 24 minutes of daylight. I’m really working on my tan…….

  34. FF tell us to look at the big picture.
    Look at your map and tell many how many canyons are they Now how many wwwh are they see my point.

    • Hard to see your point MikeMike when that point is barely understandable. Are you sure you’re not a bot?

  35. Now could one searcher check every canyon in there life time IMO no narrow down to home of Brown.

  36. if theres a lot of wwwh north of santa fe in the rocky mtns why not look for the one that is not far but to far to walk from santa fe jmo

  37. I am thinking…
    Put in below the home of Brown and begin the trek where warm waters halt and go up the ‘canyon down’ for a long hike.

    This fits better when you get up your creek without a paddle…

    • Over 40 (I will not add – victim of Fate for I do not believe that we are ever “victims” of anything and certainly not Fate” JMO)

      Anyway – Interesting view. Why does Forrest say, “Begin it…” if you are going to jump to hoB, go upstream in a canyon and then get to wwh and continue your quest from there? Seems a bit backwards to me – JDA

      • Yes I am a Pirate 200 years too late.
        The cannons don’t thunder,
        There’s nothing to plunder,
        I’m an over 40 victim of fate
        Arriving too late…
        -Jimmy Buffett ( A Pirate looks at 40)

        • Sounds good, once you know the song – Take care, and happy hunting – Glad you explained it – JDA

      • Not far is all you need to find home of Brown.to far to walk you just passed the home of Brown.IMO.

  38. To paraphrase the thought the way I twisted it…

    To begin your adventure you want to be in the area where warm waters halt and you will take your trek by proceeding up the canyon nearby
    you’ll walk for a long way (really too far for old guys)
    So, hit the trail below the home of Brown

    My working premise is based on warm waters halt being defined as a broader area and home of Brown actually quite nearby.

    • Parrot head – can you explain why we NEED wwwh if you’re just going to go somewhere else? Why is wwwh important? Another way to look at this question…what is so unique about ATIITCD, NFBTFTW PIBTHOB…if all four ‘things’ are connected, what is telling you in the 3 other lines of the stanza that you have the correct WWWH? How do you go w confidence? Not saying you’re wrong, just wondering how you score on your mental gymnastics there.

      • WWWH is a place where it all begins-not a pin point, but an area.
        ATIITCD is the direction (upstream in the canyon that is coming down from the location of the treasure) to start the quest.
        NFBTFTW is informing you of the distance you’ll travel.
        PIBTHOB is the place where you would stop walking on land and don the waders and walk upstream because the canyon has no trail.

        I have a place in mind that when using the logic above works toward what appears on GE to be very likely the spot where I will be picking up a box full of stuff…


        • Over 40;

          Darn, I can not find a thing in your post that I can agree with.

          1) I think that wwwh is a specific spot – not an area
          2) ATIITCD – Canyon DOWN – so why are you taking it in the canyon UP?
          3) NFBTFTW – OK, I can agree with this one – It is a distance.
          4) PIBTHOB – Stop walking? I was driving, and put on the waders – sorry, I am still driving.

          Well, I guess one out of four ain’t too bad – and this is just one stanza.

          Good luck to ya Over 40 – JDA

          • JDA-
            I guess between us, something will come of it, eh? At least we ain’t beatin’ the same bushes…

          • with all this chatter, it sounds like a BOTG effort and a quick survey of where you will be. GE is good…but to me….it just isn’t good enough.

            IMO – no map is……they are helpful….beyond help in many ways……but like GE….they just don’t see it all.

            My first look at a lake I was looking at, all I saw was a green lake in GE. Come to my surprise when I got to the spot….the darn thing was covered in lily pads!! DOH!! I didn’t think of that at all.

            But it did get me to think more. I think I have a picture somewhere of that spot.

          • JDA…taking you responses to my remarks…
            1) what is it that would lead you to believe its a specific spot?
            2) Kinda like driving north on South Elm
            3) Yup.
            4) Why would Mr. Fenn set up a chase that was about driving? I understood him to want all of us to get out into nature.

  39. Read the book. Read the poem over and over. Read the book again…. and figure out where warm water halted. I think its personal.

  40. Billy Barty left me this note:

    “Sparrow— I was reading the “warm waters” thread and wanted to ask what is so unusual about a 36″ bath tub? I just don’t get it. Thanks, Billy”

    • There is a lot of lunacy. Lol.

      I think it comes from people reading into the clues too much! But then again I don’t have a conlclusive solve.

      I guess I’m playing devils advocate a little and holding my solve close to chest for now. I’ve done no searching, ever. Just reading the poem and rereading. Study material and reread. I think I might still be missing one critical element of the solve. Maybe I’ll soak in my bathtub and think it over. Ha!

  41. http://w3w.co/warmed.waters.halt

    Here’s my location for wwh.. specific, falls into place with browns canyon, tftw. Also the address for hecla junction (25mi from wwh) is 10142…242 walk. Put in below home of brown would be hecla because when he bid the chest hecla junction was just below the southern border of brown wilderness study area..

    • Interesting.

      I may have to include a zipline excursion as a side adventure? Now that would be a thrill of the chase, literally.


      Uhm…I think, is something I will pass up. I need to keep my feet on the ground for now. Others….”think it is fun!” Uhm….yeah sure.

      My son showed me his certificate for skydying.

      “Why jump out of a perfectly good airplane? is my thinking on that!!!”

      Me – this gent doesn’t really have it in him for that kind of thrills yet. Sheez…I’ve just got over the unnerving aspect of camping…..

    • princess, think if you were going to put your solve out there to be critiqued. How did you come to that wwwh from the poem? Is there something in the poem that you solved to start you here, or, are you just picking a place because area around it has coincidental references?
      I see your address could be a 242, but to think that “too far to walk” is the same as 242, just is wrong. Too far to sounds like too far to, not two four two. If you can show that there are things in the poem that you solved in order to get the places you are talking about, I’m all ears. That is very difficult with the wording in the poem. Have to ask yourself, “am I guessing”. Guessing at a start place, that nothing really told me to start there. Guessing because things fall in place, there are a lot of places that can do just that. Just trying to help, lol, I could be wrong just as easily.

      • Charlie….good day.

        The poem is vague, huh? Blank to me….blurred…..fuzzy….unknown…..

        Squinting will help, but it will only hurt your eyes more.

        Eventually, this poem will be figured out…..shoot….everyone has a button that triggers the key. We just have to figure out what that button is.

        One can only imagine being in FF shoes for as long as he is alive……so I don’t think it was even worth attempting. As you can see I am talking about my own remote viewing aspect of pseudo-sciences.

        Books are read and known, motivations are understood and those perceptions are learned and known.

        Charlie….we are our own enemies in this hunt. I won’t let it happen.

        Fenn said it…..We have to plan and observe. You are listening to Forrest, right?

        IMO – we need not a mindest of “to do” – although “to have” is much better…*smiles*…..neither can be achieved for one without “will”.

        I am trying to will something to happen. Why not from 1000s of miles away? Foolishness I say!! Foolishness! Yep, the naysayers exists. Plenty of them to go around, one could also say.


        Don’t get me wrong, charlie….my mantra is of my own making….my little view of the world around me. Just the guy you may have smiled at. Who knows.

        But please don’t get me wrong on other things…..somethings……
        – I won’t cross fences that say “warning” or something of that nature…but for a few trinkets, well……i think the misdeamonor charges are minimal and worth the risk. LOL My wife had to coax me past one last trip out!! She’s the brave one in the wild – grew up on 8 acres of woodland. I had rock-n-roll, music, LPs, and “D.R.E.A.D.” -oh they were some fun times.

        I’m glad she wanted to go to YNP, too.

        Open up your mind to the possibilities that exist charlie…..there truly are an endless amount of ways we can use our mind.

        I found a way reading Dr. William Teller’s book on Human Transformation and subtle energies – a fundamental physics book about how light and energy interact and cause one to see new things. You do get a real appreciation for many of the finer things in life like art, friendship, music, and just a conversation.

        Art probably had more of an impact on me that anything else. It opened my eyes to see beauty in even the smallest of brushstrokes and its imagery overwhelmed me. I live in an art filled world……the pieces in my collection make me happy…..not the riches of new and old or whatever they maybe…..someday I won’t own them…..someone else will. But they make me happy. Shoot I’m selling two “Meet The Beatles” LPs I’ve had since I was 13 yrs old. A treasure in themselves. But I know someone will find that treasure I had….and at a nice discount….*smiles*……

        I’ll enjoy the time now…..we only have now.

        Good luck charlie…..thinking is my life…..many do not…..you are up against many smart people…..play it smart….play it your way…..play it out……you’ll just never know what you see and find.

    • The clues do fit there. Good job Princess. People have already been there and come away with nothing but you never know.

  42. Here is a list of WWWH that may be of use to searchers both new and old. I have compiled these over the last 4 years and have used them in a physical geography class as a teaching tool :

    The continental divide : fits multiple locations and provides an axis.
    The 45th parallel: also many locations and true on a global time scale
    Old Faithful: Warm water standing at attention: March march and Halt
    Ancient ocean beaches: Often at high altitude some standing at attention
    Thermal spring to colder river : so the temperature changes to cold
    Extinct geothermal features: Plenty of those
    The caldera rim : perfect for Yellowstone or New Mexico
    Orographic Precipitation: My favorite. Also many locations

    FF described warm as ‘comfortable” in a question response so that fits nice with ancient oceans that were tepid and teeming with life. And also fits the hot springs.

    HOWEVER: What I have learned is that the word “warm” may not be just temperature. Has everyone made a false assumption from the start ?
    I area I was stunned at sunset one evening by the amazing color of the water due to its heavy silt loads. The golden flow before me was so stunning I photographed it but I was so much in awe I had my camera on black and white setting.
    There are more to list but this is something to give new searchers a head start.
    Best of luck to all.

  43. It would seem logical to me that WWWH is not in a canyon seeing you have to take it “in” the canyon down.

    • You don’t see any way it could fit the poem with it being IN a canyon?

      IMO, your logic is up for debate.
      But good luck. 🙂

      • No, I only see WWWH as not in a canyon but there should be at least 1 canyon nearby to go in & down.

  44. Dal and others, including myself, that consider Madison Junction a possible WWWH,

    How do we reconcile the uniqueness of Yellowstone and that specific location with this:

    “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.”

    Do any of you interpret those words that there are many places that could be interpreted in various ways in order to fit the poem.

    Does my question about the possible discrepancies make sense?

    • “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.”

      Do any of you interpret those words that there are many places that could be interpreted in various ways in order to fit the poem.

      I lean that direction HaydukeCC. While others believe there are many examples of the WWWH used for the clue I believe he meant that there are various interpretations of WWWH north of Santa Fe.

    • How does anyone find their wwh reference?
      Regardless of what, there seems to be many either way.

      Think about it this way… fenn was ask about someone meeting another by the idea of going to wwwh in the mountains N. of SF. Or only having those two clues…

      Maybe the question isn’t what wwh is, But where are all the clues.
      If I tell you to start at the highway and travel down, go below the statue, and from there find a lake… what is your first question going to be?
      There are many highways, right? The only way to know which highway is correct is to “know where to start”. You can pick Madison Junction if ya like… But that is all you seem to be doing, picking a place, or in this scenario, picking a highway… That’s a dart toss in my book.

      “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

      Am I reading this wrong? Seems to me we need to know the “location” < of the clues, beforehand, to know where that "path" is < start of the clues, to leads one to the chest.

      Does the comment: need to nail down the first clue… make more sense by ~knowing where to start.

      • Maybe the only way to find it is by throwing darts. Perhaps this is why FF expected it to be hidden for so long. The only people to find the correct WWWH did not move with confidence and did not know they even found it. The move with confidence line could be based on some unrealized expectation, or maybe based on the fact that the searcher will have searched everywhere they could throw a dart at already. Who really knows?

      • Seeker,

        “Am I reading this wrong?”

        Like I said in another post, I am losing confidence in that location being WWWH because it is feels ‘loose’.
        Nothing fits snugly for me to match a hoB down the canyon from there that would be not far, but too far to walk, because the more I linger on this last one, the more I tend to believe it is less than 15 miles. But that is still an open idea for me.

        thanks for the feedback

      • Am I reading this wrong? Seems to me we need to know the “location” < of the clues, beforehand, to know where that "path" is < start of the clues, to leads one to the chest. (seeker)
        A word that is key, answers this .

    • Hi duke CC, I’m not a yellow stoner, but my guess is that more searchers have gone there than anywhere else. Considering that. The laws of probability would suggest that the searchers that were closest to the chest, were probably there, somewhere.

      • James, totally agree about the Yellowstone area being not likely at this point. And with the previous post. I believe one’s wwh should lead to canyon down, then on to the next clues in succession, until you reach a relatively small area that one would find a blaze. Not sure how else one could “go in confidence” otherwise.

        • Santa,

          “I believe one’s wwh should lead to canyon down, then on to the next clues in succession, until you reach a relatively small area that one would find a blaze.”

          I agree. That is where my struggles lie with this location.

    • ” “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.”

      Do any of you interpret those words that there are many places that could be interpreted in various ways in order to fit the poem.”

      I interpret this as nothing other than a Fenn witticism. Nearly all of the Rocky Mountains are north of Santa Fe. So, for ANYTHING that occurs in the Rocky Mountains — canyons going down, homes of Brown, creeks not requiring a paddle, elk bugling, people smelling sweet sage, pines growing, deer copulating, and yes even warm waters halting — by definition, nearly all of these activities occur north of Santa Fe.

  45. I had a different idea on BIWWWH. An odd thought that it’s a road sign. Road signs do cause things to halt after all. I’m probably being too “imaginative” but I’m curious if anyone had a similar idea.

    • JW!!! I have a very similar thought. Not a road sign exactly. But very close. I like this line of thinking… glad someone else sees this as well.

    • Hello JW. I have not thought about it in this way. Does “warm waters” fit into the thought with the road sign? Also, do you believe the road sign will last a long time? I’ve enjoyed reading your post.

      • pdenver, warm waters hints at what the sign says in my idea. Sorry, but I don’t want to say more than that.

        The specific sign might not last a long time, but it would be replaced by a similar sign if it was knocked down, faded out, got too many bullet holes, etc. So that location would remain recognizable as the clue.

        • IMO
          There is a road sign that indicates where warm water halts. Yes, it would be replaced by the state highway department if it was damaged. WWH is about 5 miles west of there off the highway. IMO

          Best regards;

    • JW—-
      Someone once mentioned that a “DIP” sign was part of their solve. But haven’t heard any other solves with signs in them.

  46. Lets do a little test and keep everything simple here.

    First of all when we discuss the lower 48 states of the USA, where are the most warm waters? Answer: The Gulf of Mexico

    How is surface water tracked in the world? Answer: Watershed maps. They are called HUC’s: https://water.usgs.gov/wsc/map_index.html

    A watershed starts out large and gets smaller and smaller as you traverse from river to river at the lowest point to the highest points of the mountains. Our lowest point is the mouth of the Mississippi River. If one were to follow that river and all of its tributary rivers until we reached the highest and most further WEST and SOUTH you will discover that the most furthest west and south point in the Rockies that have tributary rivers that drain into the Mississippi, you will be standing near the glaciers, you will be at the headwaters of the Popo Agie River and probably near Christina Lake. In theory if I dropped a message in a bottle from the south west most point of the middle Popo Agie River, it would flow to the Gulf of Mexico (I know it would get stuck in a rock, but I mean those waters flow to the Mississippi).

    If you were to look at watersheds as places where waterS halt, you can consider ALL the flowing watersheds as warm because they are still water that is moving. The halt occurs when you are at the tips of the tiny creeks and streams that turn to ice which melts and feeds this river from the Popo Agie – Wind – Bighorn – Missouri – Mississippi. This is why the indians called the Popo Agie “Beginning of the waters”.

    Incidentally if we cross the Continental divide near this spot, we are at the Green River. The Green River of course ends up in the CANYON DOWN, or what we call the Grand Canyon. So now we have fed TWO of the main watersheds in the USA (the Gulf of Mexico to Atlantic Ocean which is the warmest, and the south pacific, second warmest). Now move a bit further north past Union Pass and Togwotee Pass… Whats here? Ah… the Snake River! Now we have fed the Pacific Northwest all from this same area where 3 major watersheds BORDER each other.

    There is NO other spot in all of the lower rockies that feeds 3 seperate ocean basins! Colorado only feeds the Mississippi and the south pacific, it has no connections with the north west pacific. So basically WWWH to me is in Wyoming.

    Now here is something cool I will leave for you. Go look for a certain map made in the 1800s (its a specific map from a specific year). Look at the areaa I am talking about in the northwestern reaches of the Wind River Range. Notice the big bold text that says “WARM WATER” right smack over the area. Forget about the silly fishing maps, show me a real geographic map other than this one that actually says WARM WATER right across the coldest human inhabited areas of the lower Rockies?

    We do not take it in the canyon down, we do what the poem says and it says the water goes. What we need to do from this specific point is put in below the home of Brown.

    You want big picture? That is the big picture, and it is simple as can be. It took no real research or history, just simple geography.


    • In laymens terms:

      1) Ask them where warm waters are that surround the USA borders. Answer: The Gulf of Mexico / Atlantic (the Pacific is colder).

      2) Ask for a river that empties into the gulf. They will say the Mississippi

      3) Since water doesn’t halt/cease to exist at the rivers mouth, we ask them where would the water in a river halt? At its source seems pretty simple.

      So if you trace the Mississippi through all the tribuatry rivers until you arrive at the point furthest away (in river lengths), one possibility is that is where WWWH.

      NOTE: Of course this is NOT the only option, the goal is to suggest things that have not already been talked about. For example, fishing guides and Madison Junction. Not that either or both are wrong, just that perhaps we need to look at other geographic options. In no way am I saying that the above is in fact WWWH, it is just an option/opinion of what might be.

    • WyMustIGo

      Do you have the map reference?
      I have mentioned several times that the Indians called Wind River valley Warm Waters but I don’t recall my source. I cannot locate it.


      • Yes sir, I do…
        I hope the link works. Its on two maps, 1879 and 1888


        Basically the maps are at http://www.davidrumsey.com

        You search for “Territory of Wyoming”, then on the right side look for 1879/1888 U.S. General Land Office.

        When the map is up, zoom in around Dubois/DuNoir area and see “warm water”, its near Union Pass.

        Current maps this is Warm Springs/Mountain.

        • WyMust,

          “and see “warm water”, its near Union Pass.”

          small detail; it says “Warm Water Cr.”

        • WyMustIGo –

          I use the Ramsey maps also.
          That’s how I was able to see the town names that aren’t on Google along the Clark Fork.

          I will look at maps I have saved links to.


        • I’ve been over the Dubois connection already a couple years ago. Here’s a clue , on Google search type in: Dubois meaning. It’s interesting.

          • Right on TW 🙂 You know it…

            Trust me, I know the Dubois connections, knew them since early 2015. In fact, since 2014 ALL my research was focused on Fremont County, WY. I am convinced it is there 🙂

            DuNoir is also part of it.

            Things are moving real fast for me now that I have a Fremont County resident as a partner. Their family lived there for 3 generations. They have done work for the museum in Cody and Lander. Their dad and grandfather worked at Lucky MC. They are also into big game hunting and are very familiar with the mountains there. I also have access to the reservation (to visit most places on their land you need a permit, or be with a native who lives on there).

            The knowledge I gleamed from the locals has been tremendous.

            All my bets are hedged on that state, that might be a huge mistake, but instead of throwing darts at a map I am trying to focus on the place most likely (and of course I do not mean the national park, that is the last place I would look).

            If I am wrong, I have a feeling that it is in Montana. I’m old, not as old as Forrest, but old enough over 50 to know how older people think.

            Want to know something cool about Dubois and Dunoir? Do a search on newspaper articles from the 1940s, use the term “heavy loads” 🙂

            Good luck to you!

    • I just hear a lot of geography, history, and assumptions. Not one time did you use anything t5o solve in the poem to tell you any of that. Your guessing.

      Solve the poem, playing a hunch will not help you in the chase.

      • Nope, read it again, its as simple as it gets.

        Warm waters = the Atlantic/Gulf of Mexico
        Canyon that is too far away to walk to from that point = Grand Canyon

        Tallest peak = Elbert, BUT the waters from Elbert do not make it into the Grand Canyon.

        Second Tallest Peak with waters that do make it into the Grand Canyon = Gannett Peak at the Glaciers (halt = freeze).

        No history, no backstory, no assumptions and no guessing. Even a kid would know this stuff.

        Good luck in your search, I hope you keep it simple like I did.

        PS: From there I go north because the poem does not tell you to follow the waters to the canyon, the poem says to put in below the hoB and from there…

        I doubt you even read the post.

        • Sorry, I did read it, and I still have the same comment. How did you solve the poem in that it told you:

          Warm waters = the Atlantic/Gulf of Mexico
          Canyon that is too far away to walk to from that point = Grand Canyon

          Saying, Warm Waters= the Atlantic/Gulf of Mexico, and not backing it up with how you come to that conclusion from the poem is a GUESS.

          Gannett Peak at the Glaciers (halt = freeze)
          Ice is a different form of water, still water. Are you saying that it halts being a fluid? Glaciers do not halt, just because water turns to ice does not mean it has “halted”. Are you saying that the “warm” waters are what halt? Because they still seem to be travelling. There are 16 or 17 phases of water. Each explains the different temps and pressures needed to cause a reaction to water. Water might feel cold or freezing at 32 degrees, but in relation to water at -55 degrees……
          Maybe you are keeping it to simple. Just because f said that does not mean to make it as simple as possible. Nothing about this is simple. I’m sure f thinks it is simple to fly a plane. Some of us don’t think that would be too simple. If he told us to keep it simple flying a plane, we would crash on landing.

          You are picking a spot and because some of the history or maybe the supposed clues you figured could be in relation to other spots in the area all seem to match, you are trying some test of yours with answers that really involve just guessing. That is how you think f has written this poem and how he wants you to think when solving it? There is not one reference to solving anything in your post. Not one way of solving the poem, just random guessing. I realize you are just throwing things out there, but you have to realize that this approach is not solving the poem. It’s just basically a history/geography lesson. Ideas on how to go about solving the poem is what people are looking for. Doing research is the easy part, in keeping it simple, the dart board has been used way too much. Re-read your post, again, tell me where you are solving the poem, tell me how the poem told you to start there, tell me what in the poem told you to do any of what you posted. I know what your answers are to your questions, that’s what I get from the post, that has nothing to do with the chase.

          • I read all this river stuff… sounds possible to me… Sounds like a big ball o’ string — too big to get through the door, but it all leaks out somehow.
            From my armchair, Moms window is a map, & postman is bog.

        • Charlie, I did say how I got it, it was not a guess. You simply trace the warm waters of the Gulf up to the source, seems simple to me.

          Warm waters halt when they freeze, also very simple.

          • what in the poem told you to do that? Water/nothing halts. Even ice gives off heat/energy. You are guessing about the gulf. You are guessing about warm waters. You are guessing because you offer nothing from the poem that told you to do what it is you are doing…Simple.
            I don’t see the word “gulf” in the poem. Is there a word in the poem that lead you to the Gulf. No, then you are guessing. You are not solving the poem, you are giving a History/Geography lesson of something you have researched, nothing pertaining to the chase.
            I put warm water in the freezer and get ice, doesn’t mean my fridge is wwwh. I know this because it is not in the poem. If I said it is, that would be a guess. Very simple.

          • I just don’t see how it is possible for warm water to freeze. It has to be cold to freeze.

  47. Yes its been said 1000 times on this site that

    “Warm Waters” is from the New Mexico Fishing regulations.

    Warm waters include all streams, lakes, and ponds…

    Since I got to New Mexico from the first Stanza, it seems to me the warm waters halt at the border of New Mexico and Colorado.

    The pretty much give me two choices… Rio Grande or the San Juan.

    There may be others, but these seemed like the logical ones.

    I chose the San Juan, and now we know its not along the Rio Grande, so i guess I chose wisely.

    …And take it in the canyon down…

    • Hate to be the one with the bad news, but that NM guide is not the only thing that defines warm waters. It also doesn’t make sense because the poem mentions nothing about Fishing, and Fishing would require research beyond the poem.

      Forrest said keep it simple, this means that it should be something that the average person or even child would know.

      BTW, its also been said 1000 times that Madison Junction is WWWH, who is right? Answer: Nobody knows until the chest is found, so its best to heed Forrests advice. Other than a bit of grammer school Geography (that FF said would be helpful), no special knowledge or research should be required.

      • WMG,

        I really like your thoughts in regards to WWWH however your research may be in error since I’m not quite sure why you believe the Popo Agie River or Waters on the Wind River Mountains travels the farthest to reach the Gulf of Mexico…

        This subject has been discussed before in these forums and here is a great link to the true source of water that flows the absolute farthest to reach the Gulf of Mexico (it is however in Montana but Lewis & Clark never identified the true source of the Missouri):


        Its a good read and certainly worthy of the chase!

        Please let me know however if I missed your actual main point…


        • That is not correct when we discuss the highest point and the headwaters. Obviously the Madison curves northwest, so distance wise it is the furthest. But if you track through all the tributary rivers to the source of the one furthest SOUTH in the west, you would find the Popo Agie being the furthest south, and river distance furthest (not as the crow flies).

          Second, the Popo Agie is the only river there that the natives refered to as “Beginning of the waters”.

          Lewis & Clark had it all wrong, in fact they did not even know about the Wind River, they thought the Bighorn was the end. It wasn’t until later that they discovered that the wind river cuts through the mountain. So historically they rename the WInd at wedding of the waters and we have two major contributors to the Bighorn: The Wind River and Popo Agie which extends much further south than the Firehole, Madison, Gibbon or even the Yellowstone.

          • WMG,

            That is all very interesting. Using Google Earth I was able to trace the source of Little Warms Springs Creek off of Forrest Road #600

            It curiously looks like the source is at approx. 10,000′ just under the highest point of 10,200′.

            From the source you can take 600 in the canyon down (in elevation) to Wy 554 along the Little Warms Springs Creek.

            Not far down but too far to walk there is Spruce Creek and then a little further down is Bachelor Creek.

            Its an interesting location…


          • WMG,
            Trying to be the devil’s advocate here….
            Why NOT choose the Madison? Isn’t your conclusion purely subjective? And then if you choose the Madison, what is the closest canyon to there?
            And with each connecting clue (or what we believe is the next clue), each next location is also subjective. How can we then go to our final location with all confidence (as Forrest has stated) if every step along the way is open to someone’s personal interpretation?
            Explain nothing what you have and tell 20 different people your ‘perfect’ WWWH. How many different ‘perfect’ end locations do you think you’ll be presented with in a week? My guess is about 20.
            So, with that, how can the poem be solved in this manner?
            Just a little food for thought.
            Good luck all.

      • @WyMustGo et al, a few days late on a minor rebuttal! The notion about no research needed I thought pertained to ‘historical’ research. I don’t see anything wrong with researching outside of the poem, such as learning about fly fishing, trout, spawning, fly hatches.

        To me the whole first stanza could be talking about going to his favorite ‘secret’ fishing spot, alone. The entire poem could be a map to his favorite fishing spot/location.

        Heavy loads is a fly fishing term, meek was a type of reel, water high or (the line where it’s okay to walk along a navigable stream even if private property). Heavy loads , nice string of freshly caught trout. ‘In there’ does sound like going into the Park. Just my thoughts, haven’t chimed in lately.

  48. Hello everyone I am new to the hunt and had a question that I haven’t seen anywhere yet. When Forrest says he parked his car and made two trips in one afternoon has he ever said if he parks at the beginning as in “WWWH” or does he park later on like maybe at “put in”. Sorry if this has been asked already I just haven’t seen it anywhere.

    • SS, he has not said where in relation to the clues that he parked is car. People have theories but it is anyone’s guess.

  49. Put in below the home of Brown. Park below the home of Brown. IMO look for a parking lot. Once you have found WWWH.

    Montana Marv

  50. While my mind was trying to wake with a new day, it was thinking, “Where does warm waters halt?” I thought of the basins, tubs, etc. Mr. Fenn sat in, which led to think it halts at the thermostat, which looks like Thermopolis/Thermopolis, WY. Crazy how the mind thinks when one isn’t fully awake.

      • Covert,

        thanks for sharing those images

        solve or not, that just got added to a place worth visiting

      • Good morning, Covert One. Thank you for the links. My family and I exit Yellowstone via the East entrance/exit, and travel through Thermopolis. I don’t recall seeing this. It’s possible I just wasn’t paying attention. When we go through Thermopolis this year, I’ll have to look for it.

        • A google search of: “picture of Thermopolis, WY arrow world’s largest hot spring” produces several good pictures of the area.

          If nothing else, appears to be a good area to visit and sight see.

          • Its a beautiful place. The 2nd pic you added is at the boat launch. Right next to those mineral deposits you can stand in the warm water from the thermal.

          • Thank you, Covert One. I hope to be able to do so some time. Many times I’ve wanted to stop into Cody on our way home, but my husband prefers to just head home because of the long haul. A couple weeks ago, he said we would take one of our vacations in Yellowstone and travel to Cody and check out the museums. Hooray! 🙂

          • glad to see some discussion of thermop…look at the ‘searching in WY/CO’ thread as well, I posted some thoughts there recently. Just FYI…the area around thermop is mostly BELOW 5000′, has a lot of private land, reservation land (including the entire canyon) and other ‘issues’…however, it does have some great possibilities for a starting point…it was marketed as the ‘Gateway to Yellowstone’ throughout much of the 20s-60s, as well as a storied past…the hot springs park is very old as well and became a state park very early. Also, you may want to refresh on my Armchair solve…to think about some of the ‘issues’. Good luck and yay Wyo!

            My latest WWWH is the Great Divide Basin…just a possibility…I don’t have a 9 clue solve yet.

        • pdenver,

          I plan to do my yearly trip to Cody this spring. Let me know when you might be there and perhaps we can meet up. I can give you a tour of the museum and show you some really cool things not even the curators know about.

          • Hi Geydelkon. That was fun, IMO.

            Did you know of the statue’s location in Wisconsin?

            Did you know it is near a street called “Madison St.” to mark the artist’s (Fraser’s) home town?

            Fun stuff…..good luck.

          • Tim,

            I have seen the statue you mention. It does remind me of many of my days long pasted.

            I have plotted where most of the statues the Poem talks about.
            Paintings are harder to find.
            I was able to find 3 of the Code of the West statues. Actually one is located near Santa Fe in someones back yard.

            I wished I would of visited the Leanin’ Tree museum but I will take what I can get.

            The Little Turtle and Sacagawea statues were once in front of Fenns Gallery and are now located at the museum in Code Wy.
            I can only imagine what Forrest was thinking each day he went to work. It must of been a wonderful sight.


    • Thermopolis, WY claims it has the “World’s Largest” hot spring – so that could help narrow down the WWH as this is the “Largest” and there can be only one largest…just a thought to narrow down the field to one.

      Of course, it could be nothing as well…..

    • pdenver,

      “Crazy how the mind thinks when one isn’t fully awake.”

      yeah, one day I was napping before my swing shift started, and suddenly awoke with an epiphany that it HAD to be right above the Firehole Falls. Then I woke up completely and realized I couldn’t solve for a hoB anywhere in that location

        • pdenver,

          yeah,a couple times a year now. Almost 20 times a summer back in the 80s.

          I thought you saw the pictures I shared last week.

          • My goodness, you’re correct. I did see them. I’m so happy you get to go there so often. My family and I LOVE Yellowstone. We usually go every year to every other year since 2001. When my husband was a boy, he and his family went many times. I enjoy the stories he tells of those younger years there. Would love to have seen folks fishing off of Fishing Bridge, but only can do so through online articles or old post cards. My mother-in-law, when my husband was a boy, had tossed a chip out the window to get the bear out of the road so that they could pass. By the time she rolled up the window, the bear was at the window trying to get in. I was told they had teeth marks on the vehicle door handle. So many great stories and memories.

          • Those old days were great.

            My parents took us often, and back in the 60s was so memorable, but looking at their pictures from before I was born, I literally laugh out loud at the shots of bears in the roads, including Grizzlies, and they are taking the pictures from outside the car.

            Back when the road to Old Faithful was right next to Morning Glory, it gave me nightmares about the worry of my baby sister falling in. Back then there were no railings, you just pulled up right next to the thermal pools and walked over to the boardwalks that were right next to the deadly pools.

          • The old days sounded great. As of recent years, my children’s children are experiencing Yellowstone. Most will be gathering with us this year. I can’t wait!

        • HdCC,

          My grandparents took me to Yellowstone when I was six years old for the first time -that was 1972.

          I seem to recall Old Faithful the same way or at least very similar to how you describe it.

          I too clearly remember the bears in and along the roads…tourist often made the mistake of feeding them back then. It’s also my first memory of seeing deer – we woke up one morning to find them just outside our cabin door…

          Yes, it’s not the same today – better in many ways and yet having lost something as well… perhaps we’ll find what’s now missing in the Chase.

          In Yellowstone it’s best to stick to the paths but Indulgence will be discovered in its own setting;
          – not in “very close” proximity to human trails
          – in the presence of mountains, pines and wildlife
          – fragranced by pine & sagebrush
          – And it’s cold & wet

          Certainly NOT:


    • pdenver – just go to rio grande and the chama where they both meet then use the -it- as a map the t is the high way that comes to a dead end and goes north and south – the i is the creek that ends at heavy loads the period of the i is the eye of something that is near and deer to him but don’t take my word for it its just an opinion

    • pdenver – just go to rio grande and the chama where they both meet then use the -it- as a map the t is the high way that comes to a dead end and goes north and south – the i is the creek that ends at heavy loads the period of the i is the eye of something that is near and deer to him but don’t take my word for it its just an opinion

  51. Simplify – Let’s play Jeopardy!

    Me: I’ll take “mountains north of Santa Fe, Alex to $100″

    Alex: Name something that BEGINS in the mountains north of Santa Fe and takes waters to a canyon down that is too far away to walk to?”

    Me: What is a RIVER, Alex?
    Alex: Correct!

    Me: I’ll take “mountains north of Santa Fe, Alex to $200″

    Alex: Name a canyon down that gets its waters from the mountains north of Santa Fe”

    Me: What is The Grand Canyon, Alex?

    Alex: Correct

    Result: We need to find the source of the waters in the Grand Canyon by tracing them up into the mountains north of Santa Fe.

    The tallest mountain is Mount Elbert, but it does not drain into the Grand Canyon. The second tallest mountain that DOES drain its waters into the Grand Canyon is Gannett Peak.

    The major river of water to the grand canyon is the Green River. What do we have in Gannett Peak that is one source to these rivers? The only living glaciers in the mountains north of Santa Fe. Remember, according to the poem the “canyon down” is too far to walk to. So if your canyon down is walking distance from the “waters” that begin the river, you have either the wrong river or the wrong canyon.

    Am I right? Who knows. I will say this, we have 4 things going for us: 1) Second tallest mountain in the rockies that contains a source for the Grand Canyon. and 2) The Grand Canyon is not walking distance from the Green River beginning. 3) ZERO special knowledge, even a kid should know about the Grand Canyon and that it has more than one river that starts in the Rockies (Colorado River that starts about 100 miles north of Mount Elbert, and the Green River which starts right next to Gannett) and 4) Gannett Peak is on Fenns Map too.

    • In addition:

      What is at Gannett Peak? Answer: The only living glaciers in the Rockies within the lower 48 states. Montana has no living glaciers. WY has the largest ones being at Gannett Peak area, Second largest are at the Tetons at “Thor Peak”/Mount Moran (Thor sound familiar?), just south of “Owl Peak” (wise?).

      The Glaciers in the Wind River range provide waters for 3 major rivers: 1) Popo Agie, 2) Wind River, and 3) Green River. The Popo Agie is the furthest point (in river miles) that provides waters that end up in the Gulf of Mexico. Popo Agie to Wind to Bighorn to Missouri to Mississippi.

      The Green River is the one that is at 10,200 feet and uses the same waters but on the south side. The Grand Canyon is without a doubt the first canyon a kid might think of. If we trace the river in that canyon to its source that is furthest north we end up at the Green River headwaters. We did not follow the Colorado to its headwaters because they are not at the highest peak and there are no glaciers in Colorado. Colorado owns the tallest peak (Elbert), but that is almopst 100 miles SOUTH of the Colorado River headwaters up at the pass. In addition, Elbert does not provide the waters that end up in the Grand Canyon.

      That might not matter though because the poem says:
      “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down”.
      1) Halt = “Freeze!”
      2) The conjunction “and” is linking HALT + WALK to the main subject “WATERS”. So in my opinion, when properly read, the poem is not telling us to go down to the canyon, the waters are going down there”. It is very easy to miss this because the poem lines are not sentence lines. Make it a sentence and ask any English teacher what it means. We need to be careful and pay attention to the words in the poem.

      Now since “Put in below the home of Brown” is in the same stanza, the poem “might” be telling us that this feature (Gannett Peak and the glaciers there) themselves are “put in” below the home of Brown. Our first instruction to move might be “From there…” In other words “Move from there to no place for the meek”. I am not so sure about that though, but I am pretty darn sure we are not supposed to follow the Green River to the Grand Canyon, especially due to the word UP. UP could mean north.

      In any case, it takes no history or special knowledge to know about the Grand Canyon. Also no history to know that a river exists in the Canyon, and that IF the canyon is DOWN, then it makes sense that WWWH is at a higher elevation. Not much effort is required to understand that although the Colorado river does not go into Wyoming, the other tributary does, and that is the Green River. Since we are going up in elevation, wouldn’t it make sense that we go to the highest peak on Forrest’s map with a tributary to the Grand Canyon?

  52. It bothers me that , lets say the TC is at Ghost village.
    I could pick a spring on the Fiirehole river, or one on the Gibens river, or Bakers hole deep cold water for a ‘wwwh’, and any of those might get me to the TC at Ghost village….?

    • if you’re bothered when you find it there, let me know… I’ll help out


      on a serious note, though… you’re right, that location could allow for multiple WWWH, and also multiple hoB, ie Baker’s Hole or Hebgen

      but I wouldn’t be bothered by it

    • Another option is that since “freeze” is synonymous with “halt”, there are only two places in the search area that stand out.

      Gannett Peak – Second Tallest peak in the lower 48 Rockies
      Thor Peak – Grand Tetons

      Both have one thing in common: The only living glaciers in all the Rockies.

      Could the chest be just outside the south border of Yellowstone?

      Or maybe in the Wind River Range?

      Both good options since freeze is another option. It might even make more sense than Madison Junction because halt does not always mean cease to exist. The Firehole and Gibbon cease to exist, frozen water that melts along with precipitation forms tiny creeks and streams which become the headwaters that “take the waters” to the canyon down. If the word that is key is “halt”, we might want to consider freeze since boiling water doesn’t halt, it ceases to exist and becomes steam. A pot of ice will melt creating water. A pot of boiling water will eventually be completely empty if not covered. So frozen water can transition back to a liquid without intervention AND (this is important) at the same exact position. Evaporated water will eventually come back down to the ground, but that will almost never be at the exact same spot (the clouds and wind will move the molecules).

      Food for thought anyway

      • As I have gone alone.
        How is your assessment any different than getting lone cone out of this 1st line because that is what it seems like. A name that Fenn uses just happens to be a name of a standout landmark, in your case Thor.
        Then again my warm isnt temp related or fishing regulated but there is waters with it.

        • Oh and some imagination courtesy of Jeremy Clarkston, S2 Grand Tour “concrete canyon of Manhattan”. Perhaps there isnt a canyon at all in the normal sense of a canyon.

        • Hi Kira,

          Here is my opinion on how stanza one comes in to play. I believe it is a riddle, and the riddle solution becomes IT in stanza two.

          I believe the poem is a map, but it is not a geographical map, it is a map of the memoir, the missing table of contents if you will.

          I believe that it is a map to the hints that are not deliberately placed to aid the searcher. The poem is solvable without TTOTC, but without using the hints in TTOTC I believe yes it can still be solved, but that would take ages through brute force.

          I wish I could elaborate on that… But in a nutshell I am saying that the hints that the poem leads to greatly help narrow down where the geographic location of the clues are. But it is not a direct mapping, for example he YNP is talked about, but using it would be too easy. Same with Montana in his trip with Donny. It is a little bit trickier to find the hints and how they work back in the poem.
          But two good examples might be Thor and Wimpy. I think he is describing features themselves.

          • I concur the book is needed to solve the poem.
            Also that anything Fenn wrote specificly about will not be associated with the poem.
            Im just curous why you latched on Thor as a dart throw than say string lake, or mystic island, or any other number of rabbit holes in that area, simply because it has a name associated within the book.
            These words wont match from hint to clue to location. Because you could just as easily use Meek Peak there as well. This isnt going to be a word find, imo.

          • Thor was just an example, as you indicated we have Meek, Owl (wise) and others.

            The focus was also on Thor because of the glacier origin that formed the coulee/canyon that runs down towards Riverton.

            The trianlge/arrow head formed by the Wind River velley has 3 main points, one near Dubois, one near Lander, and one near Shoshoni/Riverton.

            The other hints would be JC Fremont, and the trappers who crossed over Union Pass. When they had the rendevous in Riverton, then in Lander area the following year, I do not think Meek went over the pass with the rest of the trappers.

            This is all part of what drew me to the area back in 2016 when I went there. I believe too that the Fenn family went over that pass while heading to west yellowstone Montana because it is the shortest path, Cody would be out of the way.

            When Forrest says that they went 50 miles out of the way to visit a schoolhouse, I think that Schoolhouse was along the north fork of the Popo Agie, southwest of Lander.

            When I went there, I avoided the natural bridge area by DuNoir camp/ruins because it was already searched. Instead I went upstream to the ruins, and south west towards the border (and beyond) of the Shoshone NF. The land up there is all private, some BLM, and a ton of abandon lots where the tie company buildings and flume start used to be.

            This year I have some other ideas, but I have a very strong feeling that the chest is in Fremont County for many reasons I cannot go into.

            As a side note. After reading TTOTC and really studying it, FF’s early life was not a bed of roses. I feel that stories like the one where Skippy left him between Casper and Shoshoni are embelished a lot. What I think happened is either Forrest ran away (jumped out of the family car) or his dad put him in a boys camp to help straighten him out. His dad being a principal who has a son cutting class, running on desks, and failing grades probably did not bode well.

            If you look at Eric Sloane, his early life was similar but he was a bit older. He technically ran away, and spent time at the Taos Pueblo.

            There is no way I can be convinced that Forrests parents allowed a 16 and 14 year old to drive from WY to TX. Same thing with finding Lewis and Clark. Are we really to believe that his family simply let him go into the forrest for six+ days at 16 years old? If Forrest enjoyed YNP so much, why did he work 12 hours a day? I think his family was strict and Forrest was in the middle. We see Skippy Graduate with pictures, what about FF? Dad liked Skippy, perhaps Forrest felt more than him. Now June, being the youngest was the family baby. You never look down to her or you get the switch?

            Could Forrest have spent time in a place such as the Wind River Reservation for a few days until his family caught up with him? Could Forrest and his dad have “patched things up” at a location that would now be considered special to him and his dad?

            My reasons for WY and MT are not due to all the Yellowstone talk, its more psycological in nature. I am not as old as Forrest, but one thing anyone over 55 knows is that we tend to think about our past a lot because this is usually the time in our life that loved ones begin dying off like flies. We cherish our memories long gone by, and no amount of money can buy them back. Like Forrest said, his body grows old but his mind remains 13. He may have made his riches in Santa Fe, but at this point in his life dying with $50 would be okay because money is no longer important, he did his job and raised his family, now he yearns to be with those in his memories. Someone who is not older simply cannot understand this, they have yet to reach that point in life. When we are young we cant wait to be old, then when we are in our 30s we are career building and raising family, when the mid 50s come we start to ponder where the heck did everything go? Time passes so fast life is gone in the blink of an eye. When Forrest was faced with death in 1988, I think his views on life were also changing with his age.

          • We could make a great team, seeing similar things, but my deductions leads elsewhere.

            A few things, you wrote
            Forrest and Skippy were 14/16.
            They were more likely 15/17. TTOTC was release in October 2010, Fenn wrote nearly 65 years ago and Genn being born in Aug, makes him 15. There was somewhere that I saw it took him about 6weeks to write the book, so 15 seems to be the correct age.

            “I believe too that the Fenn family went over that pass while heading to west yellowstone Montana because it is the shortest path, Cody would be out of the way.”
            This doesnt seem true. See Fenn story of mummy cave where Fenn sat on a rock near the mummy found there years later during excavation. Cody seems to be the path.
            This then going into how Skippy and Forrest could drive back to Temple by themselves as it was a 5day trip of 320miles per day. The stops would be known and they could catch up with the family each night.
            Could they go through windriver goung up, maybe, or change the route, not likely, so I dont this would be the path they took.
            There is “made up” stuff but the basis of his stories seem real.

          • WyMustIGo –

            You realize this is an old favorite topic of James P right? He is going to go nuts when he reads the word Wimpy.


          • Kira, the mummy cave story FF says they would stop as the LEFT YNP…doesn’t exclude going TO the park. You guys should look up wyo state highway maps, between 1930-1943 (ish?) was not PAVED, while the Cody route was. If it were me I would have taken paved roads over dirt…but, IMO, I think his family did all of the routes, just for different scenery. As to the skippy/fenn solo trip, I agree, they could have met up with the family each night, or it was just not a big deal…different times. WYmust – I think your assertion that you must go to the highest peak in your river solve is a major assumption on your part…might be right, just saying that is bias…what led you to that?

          • Tbug
            Also have to factor in gas stations along the way and overnight stays, going through windriver would be really risky back then.
            Youre also goin up hill in a small ” lil engine that could” car.
            I went from Denver to the winds in a rental Nissan Sentra and that thing lost power going up those hills. I would also factor in three kids getting on Dad nerves, so the easiest route would be the choice.
            Side wisdom, always use a rental when exploring, that way you dont tear your car up.
            Going Thermopolis -cody -YNP isnt the only way but would make more sense. Once the other route was built up though, anything is possible. With being able to Fenn at Thermopolis at 15 there is another 5 years of possible YNP trips till he turned 20 and went to the AF 1 of them was in ATL so potentially 4 more trips.

          • Tbug,

            A couple things made me think that.

            1) Freeze and halt are synonymous. Gaciers do not stop, they halt, weight of snowpack (and warming) makes them thaw and they refreeze almost always moving, just extremely slow.

            2) When Forrest said to keep it simple, I thought ok let me try this again. When I read “begin it”, I am looking for something that begins, and after it begins it takes waters to a canyon down. I see this as a river. The most famous canyon is the Grand Canyon. So I was looking at the rivers which contribute to the Colorado River, and the two main ones are the Colorado and Green.

            Now Forrest said “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. So what better place then to start at the largest mountain, this is Elbert in CO. However, the colorado river head is 100 miles north. It does have glaciers, but the peaks are not taller than Gannett. Gannett has a few things going for it… 1) Second largest mountain in the Rockies and 2) The headwaters of the Green are right there. 3) The largest active gaciers in all the Rockies (lower 48) are in the Wind River Range between Gannett and Fremont.

            So essentially I traced the Colorado river up to the Green river up to its source.

            I believe that Thor, Wise, Wimpy, the trappers, John Charles (Fremont) are all hints but just to the general area. I think if he said peaks in the Wind River Range it would be too obvious.

            So now I had:
            “Begin the Green River where warm waters halt and take the Green River to the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.”

            So it has a distance from source to canyon that is too far to walk. It is down south from the source.

            So why did I not go down the Green River? Because I strongly feel that the first part of stanza 2 is defining what to look for. It tells me that something begins and takes water down to a canyon far from walking distance. I feel it is NOT telling me to walk that way, espcially considering that I am later told to “look down” which is pointless to me if I am at a canyon base.

            Now “Put in below the home of Brown” to me means that the “feature” or area described by stanza 2 itself exists, is put in, below a home of Brown. My home of Brown was all of Yellowstone, not just due to the Grizzly (there are Griz south of YNP), but because of the way Joe Meek described the geyser basins.

            If I look at the continental divide there, directly opposite of the Green headwaters is “The Shoshone NF”, which was my no place for the meek.

            When the poem says “from there” in stanza 3, I take that to indicate our first movement. We are going from WWWH described by stanza 2 to an area not for the meek.

            There is much more to it than indicated here, but I am just trying to highlight WWWH part so I won’t get into it here.

            Since this solve I have come up with more ideas. I felt I was missing “precision”. FF says the person who solves it will walk right to it, to me this means I will not be wandering around a forest flipping over rocks. Well, I think I found out how to get this precision, and it requires using the hints in TTOTC. I can solve it with just the poem, but that would be brute force with no precision. I think that the TTTOC book provides the (not required) precision.

            Without giving away the barn, the poem is a map of the book. And there is a reason why the book seems to have a weird order to it, if it was in chronological chapter order linking the poem to it (without making the mapping to the real world not work) would be extremely difficult.

            For me, stanza 1 is a riddle, not a clue. But without solving the riddle, you will not know what IT really is. In the real map IT is different than what IT is in the imagination world. This sounds strange, but it is difficult to explain without giving away a solve.

          • Just for fun.
            Ill see your Thor and raise you a Biscuit basin, since Fenn mom was so meek should wouldnt bite a hard biscuit, traveling along up to mud pots, across the bridge where a sixdraw dead dog was, along the way to fairy meadows ecaise he was happy to get something from that lesson. However be sure not to go too far to the mud pots errr gravy pots, because thats by morning geyser and Fenn no longer wakes early in the mornings since he left the AF, a hint you went too far.
            Sadly YNP isnt my location.

            Be careful with the book, its dangerous.

          • James P.

            I promise you the poem is neither capricious nor arbitrary and “Begin it where warm waters halt” has a definitive answer. An answer that can be worked out by methodically going through all the different common possibilities and combinations that have been presented overtime in the forums.

            There is one guy on the forum who says; permutation after permutation…when you can’t see clearly the correct solution, one most work through option after option until the correct or most correct becomes clear.

            I had to do this and it was not until later when I purchased and read the books; after doing my homework on my reading, it became clear that much of this work probably could have been avoided since “The Thrill of The Chase” provided clear confirmation of the correct permutation…

            However, doing the work to eliminate the other possibilities does provide a great deal more confidence to the searcher, once the correct interpretation is set upon.

            Lugnutz and I have been in a conversation via private emails on this very topic and unfortunately short of me revealing the correct interpretation to the entire Stanza #2, I don’t believe its possible for me to convince him that:

            1) It is relatively simple in its interpretation
            2) That it is clearly hinted at in TT0TC – at least 2 major times.
            3) That knowing where warm waters halt and knowing clearly why it is correct; is critical to solving further clues in the poem


          • Gcg
            Why worry about convincing others, if youre sure go seek the treasure. But a sounding board helps expel confirmation bias, determine which is which is near impossible, so just do it.

          • James,
            The problem (and I agree with Lugnutz on this) is dealing with “confirmation bias.” Where basically a person down plays evidence or information which doesn’t fit preconceived ideas and up plays anything that supports a preconceived idea or solve in our case…

            It’s so easy to fall into this trap in our regular and usual affairs of life BUT in a Treasure Hunt with hidden clues and possible hints – well its just whipped up to a whole new level of psychological trickiness…

            For instance in our case of; “Begin it where warm waters halt”
            “And take it in the canyon down,”

            Is the word “IT” important or is it just used commonly in English or does it’s use in the poem simply aid in the rhythmic meter of the verse?

            As you can see from that sentence alone; “it” was used twice naturally…

            So if you are a searcher which has determined “IT” is important, then every time Forrest uses the word “it” you may be easily biased to believe he is providing a Hint of some kind…

            I’m in the camp that “IT” is important and may be the “key” word which Forrest has referred too… (of “tight focus” fame).

            In any case, use ruthless objectivity but don’t be so adverse to coincidence that you can’t see the Forrest in the trees.


          • CGC, I already solved it, I have no need or desire to prove the location to anyone really.

            It is fine that you do not share my opinion, but don’t state your opnion as fact.

  53. Here is a thought for where warm waters halt,


    I have long believed that “heavy loads” could mean the water in a particular creek or creeks carrying heavy loads of silt. If this is the case, then there would be a place where the silt piles up, and that would be my place where the warm waters halt. They halt in a fairly big pond of silt, but eventually the water filters through, and enters another water course, lake or river.

    In this hypothetical scenario, the halting is temporary, but is obvious to anyone standing at that location. It might look like quicksand in that area where the creek or creeks enter the big pond of silt. Because of the plural water(s), my scenario would involve 2 or 3 small creeks or water courses coming together before they both flow into the silt pond, where they halt.

    This idea opens up many new locations where the special place could be, and it allows for new interpretations for home of Brown, water high and of course, the blaze. Any thoughts on this idea from the left or right sides of your brains?

    All in the spirit of sharing and discussion, in my opinion only,


    • Franklin,

      You put “heavy loads” before wwwh, the ” heavy loads” are after wwwh. I see no mention of taking the canyon down which is before “heavy loads”. Every thing is out of order of the poem and do you have water high? In your scenario the water does not halt. IMO

      Just say’n

  54. CharlieM

    No I didn’t mean for the order to change. I only mentioned them in a different order to draw attention to my idea of “silt” as being heavy loads. Just forget the order I listed, and focus on the silt idea. Do you think that silt could be the definition of “heavy loads”?


      • OK CharlieM that’s honest and fine.

        I have been looking at this for awhile and can’t figure any other feasible explanations for heavy loads, but one day the answer will be revealed ( I hope anyway ).

        How about my idea of “from there it’s no place for the meek” meaning “cross the creek”?

        Does that make any sense to you?


        • Really Franklin? no other Heavy Loads? How about snow loads, train loads, electrical loads (hydro electric specifically)? All are possible, silt is too, but it seems lacking in ‘location specific’ attributes…all rivers, creeks, streams, ponds, lakes carry/have silt…all to varying degrees. crossing a creek as ‘meek’ seems reasonable/straight forward, but during snow melt in the rockies many creeks become impassable…how do you temper that with the search season including those times? How do we know to only go later in the season when water is down? IMO, we don’t.

  55. Somehow after all the theories, conjectures, half awake epiphanies, and what has at times seemed as pure genius, I keep returning to the Rio Caliente meeting the Chama as WWWH.The Chama is a Special Place for trout fisherman in southern Colorado and northern New Mexico. It is north of Santa Fe. Near the Ghost Ranch (no place for the meek). Tierra Amirillo (once a home of Eric Sloan) is in the vicinity as is Chili New Mexico (red and green chillies as in the colors of Tea With Olga). The Christ In The Desert Monastery has a magnificent window (designed by a famous architect) that at night is a truly blaze of beauty. If you google images of Christ In The Desert Monastery and look at night shots of the monastery you will most likely agree. Begin It Where Warm Waters Halt.

    I am most of the time a simpleton, and rather childish in many ways and these ideas have been discussed. IMO

    The monks at the monastary brew beer, if the TC is near…you do not have far to go and have that six pack to celebrate the find.

    Wishing everyone joy, wonder, and adventures of a lifetime.
    Walk soft upon the earth. Make peace with your fellow man and your creator if you believe in one and you shall find treasure at every bend in the stream. -guy-

  56. Warm does seem to be a qualifier & warm waters must turn cold before icing up.
    So it’s not where cold waters halt IMO. We need the warmth.

    • Warm is relative. If you put an ice cube on the table, it will make a puddle. The puddle will be cold, but compared to the ice it is warm.

      I think it is similar to what FF said about the ant and the puddle.

      Also need to remember that heated water turns to steam/gas, it is no longer a liquid. Frozen water is not a liquid, but it is liquid that when thawed will become liquid again without changing positions. In other words it halts. Steam doesn’t halt, and after it condenses back to liquid, it will not be at the same place it turned to steam.

      I think using warm was planned because if he said cold it would be obvious (ice).

      Who knows really, anyone could be right, but that is my thoughts on why. In a nutshell, warm is subjective based on the source.

      I used to think Madison Junction. The biggest problem that stands out is that the water doesn’t halt, and second the first canyon the Madison enters is only 4 miles west which is not too far to walk. So my solve that did use MJ, it left SOUTH along the Firehole (down) and out the southern exit of my hoB (all of Yellowstone). The other thing was that Meek was near MJ when he made his comments of how the geyser basins looked (it was no place he would go). So “from there” heading south was no place for him. Which way did the trappers go? They went west.

      • Talking yourself out of MJ. What about the warm water ending….. as if it halts, as ff explains in river bathing? And at 75, 4 miles is to far for me.

        • BTW, I am aware of exactly where he bathed, but that story is not in TTOTC, so this time around I ignore it.

          To me warm is relative, the puddle from an ice cube is warm compared to the ice. I focus more on the verb halt, and I am looking at the synonym “freeze”.

          My old theory was based on the Firehole and Gibbon halting, cease to exist, and “Begin it” meant “Begin the Madison River where warm waters halt and take the Madison River in the canyon down”. The verbs “halt and take” apply to the waters, not the searcher (when using the grammar in the poem). My task was to “Put in below the home of Brown” now that I am standing at the starting point of MJ.

          I just never got it to work with the whole poem and leave the park, and I strongly believe that it is not in the park. Since my focus is only on Wyoming, I did not follow the crowd down the Madison. Not saying that is the wrong way to go, just that I decided it wasn’t correct and I wanted to limit my research to the state that has the most going for it (hint wise). That might be a mistake, but it is fine with me.

          One important thing to remember is that Forrest said (paraphrased) “There are many places where warm waters halt, and most are north of Santa Fe”. This means that at least one spot is south of Santa Fe, so that kind of kills the theory of the Firehole and Gibbon. There are mountains south of Santa Fe that have frozen water on them, not glaciers, but frozen water. That is the current mindset I have. Might be wrong, but nobody can say what is right or wrong until we have the chest. So we all need to use our own judgement and just go with it.

          • WyMustIGo – when you mention “I strongly believe that it is not in the park”, it sounds like you have done the homework within the park before excluding it. MJ seems to still get much searcher attention…good luck wherever the trail takes you.

      • Osbourne Russell’s journeys traced a more circular path annually, following the beaver and the seasons. Rendezvous was important. So was salt.

      • MJ was my first WWWH in 2014, but instead of going with the flow of the Madison, I first went up the Gibbon, then up the Firehole.

        But over time it changed, especially the last year. I don’t really post solves, so it is hard to explain why. At this point I choose to only use TTOTC and the Poem. Some of my posts are not using just those two things, but since I cannot prove that I am right or wrong (nobody can), I figure that the information might help someone else.

  57. I’m thinking there must be a way to derive the correct WWWH from the poem. Because early in the chase, searchers would email Mr. Fenn with there solve, and Mr. Fenn would reply with, “but, where do WWWH”? I had seen that reply posted on the blogs several times. I just don’t see why he would continue to ask searchers that question, if it wasn’t possible to derive the location from the poem. What would be the point of his asking the question, if the only possible response, would be a wild a$$ guess?

    • I believe the entire poem is two layers, the poem As a whole covertly reveals wwwh, then after you’ve deduced that info, it’s a point by point search using stanzas 2,3,4… now how to get the info is the question, latitude and longitude, cyphers (which he says won’t help) a 24 line riddle, letter counting, who knows, a map is useless without a key…. or the poem could just describe a place only fenn knows about with no real way to determine which warm waters halt, as much as I like fenn this is always a possibility, it could just be a very vague poem at face value and that’s it, after so many years of people searching, dedicating their lives to this chase, it very well could be the answer, I hope it isn’t, but it is the simplest

      • The Greatest Thing about ‘The Chase’ is…

        Typically in life- “you have to pay if you want to play”. With Forrest… you have to play; to get the pay! 🙂

    • @ James Perotti. that is a great question. My speculation is that his father would know that. makes me want to re-read the book through is father’s eyes to see what hints surface for WWWH.

    • James P. (this post was sloppily answered above but I have reposted it correctly here…)

      I promise you the poem is neither capricious nor arbitrary and “Begin it where warm waters halt” has a definitive answer. An answer that can be worked out by methodically going through all the different common possibilities and combinations that have been presented overtime in the forums.

      There is one guy on the forum who says; permutation after permutation…when you can’t see clearly the correct solution, one most work through option after option until the correct or most correct becomes clear.

      I had to do this and it was not until later when I purchased and read the books; after doing my homework on my reading, it became clear that much of this work probably could have been avoided since “The Thrill of The Chase” provided clear confirmation of the correct permutation…

      However, doing the work to eliminate the other possibilities does provide a great deal more confidence to the searcher, once the correct interpretation is set upon.

      Lugnutz and I have been in a conversation via private emails on this very topic and unfortunately short of me revealing the correct interpretation to the entire Stanza #2, I don’t believe its possible for me to convince him that:

      1) It is relatively simple in its interpretation
      2) That it is clearly hinted at in TT0TC – at least 2 major times.
      3) That knowing where warm waters halt and knowing clearly why it is correct; is critical to solving further clues in the poem


      • CGC,
        You said: “The Thrill of The Chase” provided clear confirmation of the correct permutation…” ; not directing this specifically at you since I don’t really know how you are using the term ‘confirmation’….But when people use the term ‘confirmation’ related to the book hints, I’m very interested as to what that means. Let’s review for a moment.

        “There are hints in my book that will help you with the clues, but a clue will point you toward the treasure chest and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”

        Q: How many hints.
        F: “Ah, there are 9 clues in the poem but if you read the book, uh, there are a couple …There are a couple of good hints and then there are a couple of aberration’s that live out on the edge.”

        Q. “You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?”~BW
        A. “No I don’t madam, sorry.”

        So taking these quotes at face value, we can conclude that, in TTOTC, there are only a couple (2 maybe) good hints, and (2 maybe) very obscure hints, and the book hints do not give a ‘correct answer’ to what the major clues might be (even in a subtle way). Confirmation means ‘the process of supporting a statement by evidence’. Confirmation probably is being used differently by different people but it sounds like most people think there is hard evidence in the book that’s “clearly hinting at” an actual answer to what a clue might be rather some kind of obscure help with a clue.

        So my questions are: If a hint doesn’t provide an answer to what a clue means, then do any of us (including myself) really ‘understand’ what a hint does or how it ‘helps us with the clues’? Do we delude ourselves into believing the book holds evidence that confirms a clue (gives ‘correct answers’)? Is it possible that a hint only provides an example of a thought process or indirect way of thinking that could provoke or help our imagination along the right path?

        Anybody want to weigh in about what they think CONFIRMATION means and how it squares with the above quotes?

        • Ckid,

          I believe taking f’s quotes “at face value” puts him in a honorary position. However…I think he is just plain ornery (harmlessly mischievous:)!

          • Mia,
            Not sure what your comment means, LOL, but I’ll assume it was intended as humorous.

            F has told us time and again that he is not trying to mislead us (I’ll reframe from trotting out all the quotes) so taking him at his simplest meaning is probably the safest approach. Not saying he isn’t clever, but everything he says can be contorted and stretched to support any conclusion, if that’s really what a searcher wants to do.

            An attempt to ‘interpret’ his statements is to risk misinterpretation. IMO

          • So Colorado Kid,

            This is exactly the kind of conversation I’m having with Lugnutz relative to the trickiness of “hints.”

            Here is the question you posted:
            “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?”

            Here you have to pay close attention to the context. In this particular case, when Forrest says, No, he is referring specifically to if his book tells the searcher how to correctly apply the hint which TToTC has somewhere in the entire book.

            This brings me to the other Forrest answer regarding the Hints in TToTC where the questioner ask Forrest, if the hints in the book are organized in any order just as the clues in the poem are consecutive.

            “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search.”

            Forrest has also said, “Hints in the book are not that organized. f”

            So this could lead the reader to think that no hints in TToTC are purposely placed and are merely coincidence however, IMO this would be an incorrect interpretation of these statements because the first answer is in context to the hints in the chapters and NOT the hints themselves. And the second makes the point to say the hints, “are not THAT organized;” implying there was some small bit of thought given to their locations…


          • Ckid,
            I appreciate your ‘assumption’. 🙂
            Don’t get me wrong, I get ya. But doesn’t the entire challenge of the “Chase” revolve around the poem being properly construed? I just don’t think Forrest counted on us doing it so badly, lol!

            Heck, of the 90 acronyms for “LOL”, several are relatetable to my particular solve.
            Are you trying to mislead me?!; Lol, jk

        • Yeah, I noticed this in myself early on. It’s easy to get stuck on a possible solve, and then allow the mind to do what it does naturally–screen out the perception of evidence against what we don’t already believe.

          Confirmation? The TC. Everything else is just speculation. Maybe what people mean is “seeming support for” their ideas.

          • Example: regarding the first line of the poem, many searchers have written about 11 or 111 (as I [one] have gONE [1] alONE [1] in there). And others have written about other numbers in the first stanza which may lead to WWWH. 111 could be a highway or a coordinate or a trail number, or… Who knows?

            So we go to TTOTC, wondering if FF put 111 in there, somewhere, or we count the 111-th paragraph or word or whatever and find something that fits a place. Or we see numbers in the drawings. Or there’s a 111 referred to by a postmark. Something. And we say that that 111 “in” TTOTC is ‘confirmation’ of the 111 in the poem. It’s really easy to do.

            I’ve found SO MANY seeming indicators like this, and indicators from words. Today, I spent an hour or so reading about St. Helena, an island in the middle of nowhere where Napoleon was exiled alone at a place called Longwood, where he died.

            It’s madness, it’s fun, it’s all probably a lot of rabbit holes. I love rabbits.

        • Kid, That’s the thing. The poem being in the book, is it that nothing in the book could lead to solve a clue, because f just didn’t put that in there? Are the hints confirmation/ support for the clues? With those two ATF’s, He said there are a couple good hints, but not that those hints help solve a clue. If the second quote is saying that there are no answers to the blaze or wwwh in the book, the poem being in the book, then there are no answers to those two known clues? He just has never given that information?
          I while back, he said something on the lines of coincidences. That after so many coincidences that one at some time has to believe something as true. Is that what the hints are? That you find so many that your left with the fact that it’s true? Do so many hints need to be used to solve for an individual idea? If he is not giving info to solve some of the individual clues, then how do we solve for them? It seems that it can’t be solved this way, that it takes a lot of different hints to get confirmation of something being correct. Confirmation, support info, checks and balances, all the same thing. I think all the hints are used parallel to the clues, now and then crossing each other, which gives confirmation, because, those two ATF’s, straight up, seem to be saying that f has not supplied the info to solve a couple of clues. “Actually, that’s my interpretation”, but how else can they be read? Maybe once we have so much confirmation, that leads to the confidence needed.
          You said it, “Do we delude ourselves into believing the book holds evidence that confirms a clue (gives ‘correct answers’)? Is it possible that a hint only provides an example of a thought process or indirect way of thinking that could provoke or help our imagination along the right path?
          Searchers don’t want to admit to that, can you imagine all the solves that center around solving each clue being a huge waste of time? Going back to the drawing board? Searchers don’t want that to be, but it just may be.
          I’m finding more and more things that seem to point in that direction, kid. We just cannot solve all the clues from the info provided. We have to “find” the clues, interpret them, and follow them. The path to the chest will contain all the clues, leads to the thought of only solving the poem will give you your path. Good by to those solves that are focusing on solving clues…
          We think we are so smart, here’s a what if. What if f is saying “your so smart, huh”. Okay, here’s a poem, it has 9 clues that can be followed to find a chest. You need to find and interpret the clues to find this chest, but I’m not going to give you the info needed to solve for all of these clues. I’m not going to trick you or nothing, there are 9 clues that will be followed. It’s your job to find the chest, you so smart, go for it. With that thought, do we try to solve individual clues? Do we expect confirmation of the clues, of course, if we don’t have the info to solve the clues, we need some kind of confirmation. Since the hints won’t directly help, what are we left with?
          It’s a good point Kid, I think you’ll get a mix of answers. Confirmation has to come from somewhere, along with confidence, using those ATF’s, it’s not the book. I don’t think f says anything to just talk. If it involves the chase, he is careful. Might slip now and then, but corrects. Always that “plausible deniability”. Confirmation has to be from multiple sources. How many hints are needed to confirm a clue to give confidence to solve one thing? Maybe that’s the story of car mechanics. One with four years experience or four years book smart. The four year guy will see many problems, more then a book guy, it’s the number of situations that prevails, not the “A” in mechanics school.

          • Charlie,
            LOL…trying to give Seeker a run for his money on the verbiage? Ha, ha

            Here’s some thoughts.
            You : “Do we expect confirmation of the clues, of course, if we don’t have the info to solve the clues, we need some kind of confirmation. Since the hints won’t directly help, what are we left with?”

            Well that’s kind of my point. We want confirmation therefore we find it. F never offered that expectation….we grasp at it. The only expectation is that a ‘hint’ offers some kind of help with a ‘clue’ whatever that means. It’s kind of the same with the ‘confidence’ statement. At face value, its just a statement of the obvious. Paraphrasing: It will be very difficult if you don’t have confidence where it is. Well of course it will . Similar (in a way) to his other statement that if you knew precisely where it is you could go to it (in any weather). But he doesn’t really give any way for us to gain confidence other than solving the first clue.

            You: “The four year guy will see many problems, more then a book guy,” . Again this is a good point….the guy who has learned via trial and error is probably better than the book learner….experience.
            Q: ….Who would be the best person or family to find the treasure?
            F: A family that joined together and going out looking for the treasure, 4, 5, 10, 50 times….

            So, possibly, F holds out the expectation that there could be a learning curve and/or trial-and-error experience to solving this rather than certainty. I don’t like this anymore than you but it’s a real possibility.

            Finally you said:” I while back, he said something on the lines of coincidences. That after so many coincidences that one at some time has to believe something as true. Is that what the hints are? That you find so many that your left with the fact that it’s true?”

            I don’t remember that quote but how many times have we read a solve where the searcher said some like ‘ this has to be true…there are just too many coincidences for it not to be true”. Coincidence is in the eye of the beholder, it’s not basis for logical conclusion.
            Good chat.

          • confirmation is a very strong word in the chase. I think it goes hand and hand with confidence. Kid brings up a very good point. Whether we use the book or ATF’s, at the core of a solve, we need to get it from a very vague poem.
            With those two ATF’s, if you really think about it, f has to give info to give someone that confirmation, but it’s not in the book, or the poem, since it’s in the book. Flip side, the poem is all we need.
            So, where does it lead us? ATF’S, interviews, maybe other books? That must be the places to find confirmation, and confidence. So, when we look for a wwwh, nailed down, or canasta, or staying home is something that needs to be seen within that wwwh solve. Is that enough to give someone confirmation they have the right spot? With this clue being so important, I think it’s going to take many things to give someone confidence. ATF’s will come into play, some of his stories, possibly book hints in the sense of support, maybe history of the place, but most important, something in the poem must confirm that is the starting spot.
            Kid, another good point, “We want confirmation therefore we find it.”
            I think, whether we really know it or not, we force fit. So much time spent with this puzzle, we need confirmation so badly, we pick and choose what we need and make excuses for what we don’t, so our solves seem perfect. (I’m guilty of that) wish I wasn’t. My example, the 200′ comment. I find people should be a little closer. With so much I can answer, sounds so good, but the 200′ comment should be closer. That statement might be elevation, might not, the thing is, the word “that” is key is how far people should have come. That is in the poem and I could match it to a distance in feet. My thing is, with so much answered, if I have a problem with 200′, I have a huge problem with the solve. Or, I don’t have one. With all the confirmations, all the confidence, it just takes one wrench to make all the gears stop working.
            With the ATF’s having multiple ways to interpret, searchers rely on your last point, “how many times have we read a solve where the searcher said some like ‘ this has to be true…there are just too many coincidences for it not to be true”. Coincidence is in the eye of the beholder, it’s not basis for logical conclusion.”
            If they see it, in the poem or not, it must be, or their solve is screwed. That is not the basis for a logical conclusion.
            Best post in awhile out here Kid, we’ll have to get back to disagreeing on the next post…

        • CKid,

          So to be clear in my answer regarding your quandary about the value of hints:

          Most of them are scattered in the book and are kind of coincidental meaning that they haven’t been placed there with any particular structure and that some of them are hints only by chance. For example lets just make up a story in the book where, Forrest when he was a kid, loved trains and he remembers clearly the 693 which always came through town at exactly one in the morning.

          Let’s then say, when solving the poems clues we figure out in the first Stanza “As I have gone alone in there” as a clue “alone” was meant to be interpreted as ONE… This would be more of a coincidence than an intentional hint.

          At the same time there are at least 2 strong hints – I would suggest more thought went into these, than the ones which are “aberrations.”


        • The hints can point to a specific geographical place and this can be done before you start working on clue one. While working on clue you’d have the answer to the hints in your back pocket already.

          I never use the word ‘confirmation’ when going about the hints for the reasons Colokid mentioned.

          • Agreed that “confirmation” is far too strong a word. “Confidence boosters” is more accurate (whether real or imagined).

            When Forrest said, “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence,” that is not the same as saying that the winning searcher will move with 100% certainty or assurance of the outcome. They will have reasoned out the problem, found no flaws in their solution relative to Forrest’s statements, and they’ll be taking a purposeful path without hesitation or reservation because there is only one reasonable way to get to their final location. They won’t be absolutely certain of any of it until they find the chest, but there won’t be any guesswork as far as getting there, IMO.

          • Zap,
            Pretty much agree. I consider the confidence statement as pertaining to SELF confidence which is kind of what I think you’re saying.

  58. Hi Cris L, The other thing about him asking the question, was that he expected, that they would have the right answer.

  59. Hi GCG, I’m glad that there is at least some of us, that think it’s knowable, from the hints and clues. I couldn’t see any point to the chase, otherwise.

  60. Too ignore a possibility simply because one doesn’t want to believe it, is ignorant and shortsighted. Until indulgence is in someone’s hands, every possible solution remains plausible, including the chance the poem is unsolvable without prior knowledge of the chest location and will ultimately only ever make sense to fenn, I know it’s an unpopular theory, but it is a possibility none the less, regardless of wether or not one believes it… I’m not saying this is the case, I can’t say that because I don’t have indulgence, but that’s also the very reason no one else can say it isn’t the case … I’m still actively trying to solve the poem, but beings that I don’t know where it is , I have to be open to every possibility, including the ones I’d rather not be open to

    • Liam,

      Thank You!
      Something that resonates strongly as I sift through posts, not just here.


      • I’ve been involved in the chase on and off since 2013, just recently have gotten back into it (life has a tendency to get in the way of living) and I always thought there has to be specific info for a definitive location for wwwh, then one day I realized if I were hiding a treasure worth potentially millions, but my main objective was to give people hope and get them active and outdoors, I would just make it incredibly vague, And applicable to 10’s of thousands of areas, thus all but ensuring the chase will continue. I’m smart enough to know there are a lot of people much smarter then I am and I just gave them millions in incentive to apply that brilliance and crack my code, the only way to make certainthey didn’t crack it immediately and spoil the fun for hundred of thousands of other people would be if there was never anything to crack in the first place…. After 7 years of highly intelligent people (most of which reside in this very forum) nothing has been found, I can’t be the only one beginning to feel like maybe there’s nothing to solve…. just to add a little credence to this theory, he has said a few searchers have mentioned the correct 1st and 2nd clues… ask yourselves this, if you uncovered some hidden coordinates, or info that gave you the 1st clue, you would 100% know it, and you would never go to another spot, so the only explanation that makes sense, is they didn’t know where they were, they were there by accident, not by design, if I had coordinates I’d be moving to the location and searching til I found something, not leaving and sendiing fenn an e-mail about my vacation… fenn said to simplify, but what if the poem is too simple?

        • Maybe if someone has found something like that, they’ve done BOTG, and have been simply unable to move on through the clues yet–because the clues are too hard, too vague, too ambiguous. Or the “coordinates” leading to WWWH encompass a very large area.

          • Could be, but Forrest said the clues get progressively easier, and also take into consideration, this would need to be in the middle of nowhere so as to not simply be stumbled upon, so how much could fenn really have had to go on to even write the clues ? We would need to work with what he had… when your dealing with something this vague, it’s incredibly easy to fill in the blanks and have it make sense

        • Liam,

          Once you figure out the first clue and understand precisely why you have the correct interpretation of; “Begin it where warm waters halt” – then Forrest comments pertaining to early searchers who correctly identified “where warm waters halt” and why he says they may not have fully understood the first clue and in fact didn’t understand how close they were to the actual Treasures hiding spot and just went by it…

          “Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to …”

          “They left the poem.”

          I will assert the important words in the first statement by Forrest is “process” and in part 2 of that comment “oblivious.”

          So with this in mind and his second statement “left the poem,” I suspect those who had found it through a “process” were just following through on various possibilities they had come up with, whereas the others had gotten to the right geographical location but more by luck of the numbers than by an actual correct interpretation of the first clue.

          Therefore in each case, neither party fully understood what they had accomplished and were then ill equipped with the confidence necessary to correctly interpret or identify the next couple or few clues…


          • Further Liam,

            The clues only get progressively easier IF you are aware that your interpretation of “Begin it where warm waters halt” IS correct…

            If it exist in your mind as one of several good possibilities or IF you don’t understand the correct nuance of your correct interpretation (as in how it is to be correctly applied to the puzzle as a whole), THEN the following clues won’t be easier since they still exist outside the absolute correct context…


          • Yeah that is basically what I said above, they arrived by accident not by design, they didn’t know now they they were at the correct wwwh because they didn’t find anybody definitive info within the puzzle that pointed them there, it was just happenstance…. to address’s what you wrote below, how do you know? You speak so matter of fact as if it were you that wrote the poem, or as if you’ve already found the treasure, but neither is the case.

  61. Kira,

    Thank you for the encouragement to follow my own ideas & theories – I appreciate it.

    Confidence isn’t something lacking in me – right now I’m just patiently awaiting better weather in the area (the snow to be gone and the mud to have dried up … mostly).

    Well, perhaps patiently isn’t entirely true! Forrest having said, if a person new precisely where the Treasure is, they probably could retrieve it in any weather — honestly has me a bit edgy… I’m working to be patient!

    But basically, as soon as I get a decent weather report – I’m BOTG 2018.


    • GCG
      Happy hunting.
      Arguing about who is right takes me back to being a kid arguing with my brother as who was right. According to our parents neither one was, even though I was, lol.
      Dont try to convince or persuade, stand your ground but listen, then reevaluate.

      • Kira,
        I work hard not to argue on the forum but instead to foster a healthy exchange of ideas and critic. This is especially true in the case of the searchers like Lugnutz who I respect.

        Having these longtime and knowledgeable searchers shoot holes in my ideas or challenge a post is important feedback that keeps me honest and less susceptible to say confirmation bias.

        My reasonings and solve will have to conform tightly to a logic in order to pass their scrutiny…


  62. Upthread, poster “GCG” wrote: “I had to do this and it was not until later when I purchased and read the books; after doing my homework on my reading, it became clear that much of this work probably could have been avoided since “The Thrill of The Chase” provided clear confirmation of the correct permutation…”

    In response, “colokid” responded: “Anybody want to weigh in about what they think CONFIRMATION means and how it squares with the above quotes [from Forrest]?”

    If there were no “confirmation” to the correct solution, why would anyone want to travel long distances, requiring time and expense, to search for a will-o’-the-wisp? Can you imagine a searcher from England or Australia flying to the Rockies with just a few bare bone clues, but no confirmation of their solution? A long distance, expensive trip wouldn’t make any sense, no matter how attractive the gold appeared at the end of that far-off rainbow.

    No, there has to be some sort of confirmation somewhere from some source. Which is only fair to all searchers. After all, FF said he tried to think of everything; and I believe him. On the other hand …

    Every time I see the word “confirmation” made in the same breath as TTOTC, I think … confirmation bias. Which is a well-known logical fallacy.

    I don’t think a searcher will get any kind of real confirmation (aside from the poem) from anything in TTOTC without risk of it being an illusion. We see something that appears to be confirming, and we hang on for dear life.

    But if some item or number or comment or picture or some juxtaposition of this or that in TTOTC seemingly “confirms” my solution, how do I know it’s a real confirmation and not an illusion? No matter how one tries to rationalize some “item” in that book as “confirmation” (and some searchers even think there are “clues” in the book), no matter what torturous logic a TTOTC reader applies, it’s still just confirmation bias.

    Yes, I do think FF has provided ways for searchers to “confirm” their solution as valid or not valid. But in my opinion those methods are not in TTOTC … or any other book …

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken, well thought out and said.
      I agree….
      Our minds wander where we want them to wander.
      We see what we want to see.

      IMO, it’s all about the poem and so will confirmation be all about the poem.
      Clearly Clueless

    • I’d think f would say oh well to Ken’s first point.

      And I don’t agree with Ken’s s cone point.

      • Ken,
        Well I guess I have to agree with Fundy on the first point.
        I think it’s not realistic to expect fairness in this endeavor. Not everyone has the same resources (time, physical ability, money, problem solving skills, the list goes on) so how could Forrest ever expect to completely level the playing field? It’s a risk/reward decision everyone has to make for themselves.

        You said: “No, there has to be some sort of confirmation somewhere from some source.”

        Do expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?
        “No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first ” https://dalneitzel.com/2015/11/02/forrest-gets-mail-9/

        Sounds like no beforehand confirmation to me.

  63. Ken,

    After reading your comment, perhaps “Confirmation” with a capital ‘C’ is too strong a use in terms of the chase. On this I have to agree with you.

    However, there are a couple of expositional inconsistencies in the book TToTC, that when examined provide very solid “corroboration.”

    This is what I’ve said in the past and is more accurate than “confirmation.”

    Also I will say, there are then the “aberrations” which are numerous. And many, if not the largest number of them that I’ve recognized, provide further assurance to WWWH, because they clearly explain why Forrest refers to them as variations or “something different.”


    • Further Ken,

      The reason I fell into the trap of using the word Confirmation is because Forrest (IMO) has worked a confirmation of the Correct WWWH into the poem’s clues and this is why the searcher who finds the treasure will, in Forrest opinion, go in confidence. They will be positive in their attitude and deliberate in their actions…

      So to me a “correct solve” must have these 3 characteristics:
      1) Everything Forrest has said and the Poem itself should make a very solid and simplistic sense.
      2) Most of the clues should be strongly corroborated by TToTC
      3) The clues once interpreted and employed correctly should provide the searcher with a confident means to locate a 500 to 600 cubic inch box in the Rocky Mountains and more specifically in the area of WWWH…


  64. With so much discussion about WWWH and confirmation of the clues, it seems some are missing the basic point made by FF. He mentioned the person who solves it will:

    “…move with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental”.

    This brings up an interesting way of viewing the clues and the journey to the TC. One can have 8 of 9 clues and still not know the location – and still not find the location for a million years. A good way to view this is a “branch structure” where, even if the first location is known, the number of potential options continues to get exponentially more if a person cannot determine the subsequent exact clues – is this the reason nobody has found the TC?

    Suppose one had the location of WWWH (and no other clues determined), then it would be like saying they have the correct “trunk” of the tree but not the exact “leaf”. Link below for the basic example:


    Until someone finds the location of the exact leaf on the ever-branching number of possibilities / tree, the TC will stay safely in its location.

    The same is true if one has 8 of 9 clues completely worked out, there are still a very high number of possibilities getting to the exact solve / location. Even solving the 9th clue will not be accidental – FF said “…move with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental”.

    If a searcher is struggling with confirmation of some or all of the clues they supposedly figured out, that might simply mean they are not moving “with confidence” as mentioned by FF. Said differently, it might mean some or all of the clues the person thinks they figured out were not correctly solved.

    …no pun intended by using a tree branch example.


    • But then how do we reconcile the comment that the finder will not be confident they have the first clue solved until they have the chest. Confidence and confirmation are two different things because thousands of searchers have been confident and still no chest. I can’t imagine anyone searches without being confident, so confidence is overrated and not really a factor in finding this.

      • …and one can be confident that the earth is flat but that confidence is not based upon a correct understanding.

        “…move with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental”. The premise of this statement is that there is a correct understanding – of the clues. IMO

      • Indy,

        “and not really a factor in finding this”

        I disagree.
        To me it is like a one-way door, or a yes/no door. You need it to go through, but then you are only through one part.

        Or look at it like this; you need to read the poem to find the chest. Yet thousands have read the poem and NOT found the chest. Would you conclude that reading the poem is not really a factor?


        • I would conclude that confidence is not a factor because of confirmation bias. I can’t say with confidence that there is no confirmation in the book or poem, but I can say with confidence that too many people have found false confirmations.

          As for whether the earth is flat, I can say with 100% confidence that the earth is round. In high school we did the experiment with a hand-made protractor to calculate the curvative of the earth based on the nearby mountains. We were within 20% of the actual results. Now that is confirmation and can be experimentally determined.

          I’m not saying we can’t know a clue could be right, but there is no way to know a clue must be right. Your imagination does not rely on experimental confirmation and in my solve I don’t waste time on confirmations. I concentrate on the poem and dream about where it’s telling me to go.

          • Indy,

            ” I concentrate on the poem and dream about where it’s telling me to go.”

            At the risk of arguing semantics, or splitting hairs, what if no one ever acted on their dreams of where they believed they should go? Would anyone recover the chest if they stayed home? Even though many have left home and returned empty-handed… leaving home is necessary, no? And THAT is where is see the relevance of “confidence”. Having that, or whatever other word better suits you, to get one out of the house, and the dream, to open the option of it even being possible to locate the chest.

            Whether or not any of us agree, oh well, it is actually a moot point in the big picture.

          • Indy saying confidence is not really a factor in this is missing something. Indy is basing that on just the basic concept of confidence and how that’s a subjective thing for us searchers looking for the tc.

            But there’s a possibility of an objective use of confidence in the poem. Confidence could be a word that is key. That key could very well be of objective help for the finder. A comepletely different tract then searchers just sticking with an unimaginative view of confidence.

      • @Indy, you nailed it. Confidence can be a by product of confirmation bias. Searchers get over confident in their interpretations when they find so many confirmations outside of the evidence provided. And confirmation bias is never in short supply when your looking for it. If one can simply minimize, if not eliminate completely, outside influences, to include personal preconceived emotions, and just focus on the evidence provided, certainty can be gained.

        • I think I understand what everyone here is saying about confirmation bias. If I find my wwwh, then a canyon. Great. But if I find a tea bag on the trail (tea with Olga) I must be on the right path!!! But no more solid clues in relation to the poem after. However, if I’m in my canyon, and I come across the home of “Doc Brown” I then can move forward with confidence, assuming I next find no place for the meek… I.e. certain death gorge? And so on. Am I right on the difference between confidence and confirmation bias here?

    • Covert One

      I like the idea of branches. Certainly from where warm waters halt, there will be options. In my opinion there will only be one or two logical directions, depending upon the lay of the land around the location, but options for branches nevertheless.

      I am of the opinion that warm waters do not necessarily mean thermal waters heated underground by volcanic activity. It can simply mean “warmer waters” dropping into a larger body or river that is “colder waters”. Ruling out the DAMS in the 4 states, it requires a different way of analyzing the water courses to discover these other locations.

      All just my opinion.

      I like the idea of branches.No matter which final solution is correct, branches could be mapped and eliminated one by one.


  65. Since we are on the Warm Waters Halt thread, and we could go on and on with confirmation and confidence, can we just put to rest that warm waters halt has nothing to do with temperature. Is it possible we could all agree that “warm” has nothing to do with it in regards to temperature. Are we all on the same page with that at least?
    Seems some “ill-info” is going around about water not being warm when it is frozen. This is wrong, and with f, anything with the chase, I’m sure he would know this. If anything, he would have found out.
    Water DOES NOT halt being warm when it is frozen, cold, refrigerated, or whatever. It is still moving and it still has heat. It stops being a liquid, but he didn’t say. where liquid waters halt. We can at least lay this assumption to rest. Nothing to do with temp. If you are new, if you are trying to solve the clues for some reason, if you are trying to solve for wwwh, trash the idea of warm as far as temp. having anything to do with it. You will be a lot better realizing this one point.
    Water freezing or frozen, or ice is still warm, and is still moving. If you have a solve that centers around water to ice or thinking that glaciers or snow packs are a good place to start, then you need to reevaluate your starting place. Since it is a very important clue, if your solve has this as the case, then the whole thing is probably wrong.
    This discussion comes around every year. We need to bury it and move on. It’s one thing we can scratch off our possible list. It can only help to understand this point, IMO. Good luck.

    • charlie,

      With all due respect, your recent comments are concentrated on dispelling someone else’s solution (BTW, the word “solve” is a verb and cannot [should not] be used as a noun).

      Perhaps you should concentrate on your own “solution” to the poem, and don’t let other’s solutions muddy your waters, as it were!

      Best regards,


      • I just hear it every year, we should either prove it or dispel it. Again, it is false info for anyone new. If everyone goes for the temp thing, good with me, just don’t throw out false info.
        Not trying to put down anyone’s solve. Just stating a simple fact.

    • Charlie-
      Since you posed this as a question I feel obliged to chip in.
      No…I can’t give up just yet on warm referring to temperature…
      This poem was devised by Forrest…not by a hydrologist or meteorologist…
      Forrest speaks the language of the common man and it seems quite likely that BWWWH does have something to do with temperature…particularly considering his statement that there are many of them in the Rocky Mountains and most are north of Santa Fe…
      I am not saying that it is not possible that warm refers to something other than temperature. I am only saying that I am not willing to rule out that by warm he is referring to temperature..not yet anyway…maybe tomorrow…or the next day…

      • Well Dal, if you aren’t on board, then it most likely will go nowhere. I should have said, let’s stop posting false info. My bad. I was a little jumpy, maybe it’s just too soon for that position. Okay, but I will say, if you are new, don’t do it. :)…Use your energies on something more worthy of a discussion. I did come off a little aloof, didn’t I? apologies all around. when it comes back around some day, I won’t say I told you so. It’s just such a hard sell… Oh well, one more year won’t hurt…

    • Hi charlie — I’m going to side with Dal on this one, and actually take it a step further. I believe it absolutely DOES have to do with temperature. People get all hung up on *specifying* a temperature when that is irrelevant in my estimation. I think when Forrest wrote “warm waters,” he simply meant waters that were *warmer* than they ordinarily would be for a more typical location at that altitude, latitude and time of year. In other words, any warm or hot spring would qualify (but those are just two examples). Where people go off the rails, in my opinion, is in their interpretation of “halts.”

      • That is fair Zap. Taken in a more simple way, it very well could be a “just passing by” kind of comment. Not so scientific. I just feel f would know even the slightest detail on what he wrote and know people would tend to migrate in that direction. Knowing full well, water does not halt, and frozen water is still warm. I tend to bend towards Liam’s example. Also think there will be many, many things that will make up wwwh. I also tend to side on the one possibility that searchers have not considered. That with the info we have, wwwh cannot be solved. Same with blaze. Same with the 3rd clue.
        Back then to Kids post, confidence, confirmation, or bias, either way, the info just is not there for an individual solve of wwwh.
        I’m a little surprised with your answer Zap. You’re a scientist, you would know that water doesn’t stop moving and frozen water/ice has heat. But you’re right, it may just be it’s less warm in one place then another. It may be just that simple. (in a whisper, if you’re new, don’t believe it).
        Dal, can I post the same thing next year? And where is Goofy and Seeker? Maybe it’s a Bruce Wayne/Batman thing going on. Never see both of them in the same room. hmmmm…

        • Charlie, would you mind telling me how ice has heat? As water freezes it does release heat keeping it close to the melting point. Temperature does not drop during the freezing stage but once it is complete it does. So in this completely frozen state how is ice warm?

          • Jim,

            You beat me to the real zero and I agree.

            So I wonder how many folks out there are now looking for Kelvin?


          • Absolute zero is like light speed. Cannot quite get to that point. Of course there may be ways, but all in theory. Actually, with enough pressure and temp influence, water is thought to turn into a metal. Whole different discussion. Have to also remember that at the right temp and pressure, water could exist as all three, liquid, gas, and solid at the same time. I don’t think we have to get that much into it. Talking more and more about it, almost hope that Zap is right, need to just keep it simple.

      • Zap –

        Did you spell that wrong purposely?
        I you doing the thing where you give out a “clue” as if we ere searching for your treasure and not Fenn’s?


        • Hi Lugnutz: spell what wrong? I am not immune to typos, but re-reading my last post at 9:32 pm I’m not seeing a single mistake.

          • Zap –

            I just mean that you typed HALTS as opposed to HALT and thought maybe that is your way of giving a clue.

            Where people go off the rails, in my opinion, is in their interpretation of “halts.”

            I don’t know if you are trying to get clever with that or not.


          • Lugnutz: my apologies — good catch. The error was not intentional. I don’t have any plans to slip any more hidden clues into my posts.

      • Hi charlie: I wouldn’t get too wrapped around the axle about scientific definitions of “warm.” Forrest has no inclinations toward deceiving others (everyone is already skilled at deceiving themselves!), and I think a simpler “country-spoken” interpretation of his words is likely to be closer to the truth than something complex, scientific, convoluted, or overly dependent on specialized knowledge.

        You opined: “I also tend to side on the one possibility that searchers have not considered. That with the info we have, wwwh cannot be solved.”

        I’m aware that you believe that, but I’m quite confident you are mistaken. I’m in 100% agreement that the six words “Begin it where warm waters halt” without additional information is unsolvable. But other lines in the poem do provide the necessary missing information.

        Let’s face it, for the poem to be solvable, you have to know the starting point, otherwise you’re just twisting in the wind. Forrest certainly believes that WWWH can be solved, otherwise why all his wasted words about nailing down the first clue? Furthermore, we have his word that multiple others have solved it. Yes, yes, I know, some will quibble about whether Forrest really meant that people have truly solved WWWH when he uses words like “deciphered” or “identified.” I just think people don’t like the idea that others could have figured something out that still eludes them, and so they try to manufacture loopholes in every statement Forrest makes. I think people should instead rejoice that WWWH has been solved by multiple folks — it should give a searcher hope that the task isn’t impossible, rather than despair that no one out of a quarter million or more people could even crack the starting point.

        “I’m a little surprised with your answer Zap. You’re a scientist, you would know that water doesn’t stop moving and frozen water/ice has heat.”

        Sure, I’m well aware that anything above absolute zero radiates energy, and “warmth” is relative. But these facts are completely irrelevant to solving Forrest’s clues, IMO.

        • Zap, don’t get me wrong. Wwwh of course can be solved. I’m just saying it can’t be solved with the info given. That sounds contradictory, but really, I think about his comments: go to the poem, the poem solved puts an “X” on a map, solve the poem, everything needed is in the poem, one way in, need to find the clues, follow all 9 clues, and countless others. With the poem solved, it gives a spot, okay, a map will show how to get to that spot, okay, where you start, most likely will cover a lot of things that pertain to wwwh. If not, you probably have the wrong poem solve. If you have the right poem solve, all the clues will be in order, will be found, and understood. Do they mean anything? Not all of them, if you knew where the blaze is why worry about wwwh? If you knew the hoB, why worry about wwwh. He tells us the first clue is so important but then says if we have the right hoB why worry about wwwh. With there not being any shortcuts, and all 9 clues will be followed, and 1 way in, then wwwh becomes not so important. It’s just a clue on the path to the chest. Since your path would be true for the one who had the correct solve, it’s the poem solve that is critical, not solving the clues, or I should say, not solving some of the clues. They will be part of your path, a ‘confirmation’ that your path is right. (like how I stuck “confirmation” in there?)
          We differ, of course, but the “what-if” of his statement, the one very thing that searchers have not considered for the correct solve, the one whole hearted important thing that searchers need to realize is………..Kind of sounds like it’s something we all take for granted, but we need this thing to solve the poem, the one idea…….I say it is the possibility, that all the clues cannot be solved with the info available. The end point yes, the poem will give that, seeing where to start, yes, knowing the end point will give that, we can’t know we have the correct wwwh until we have the chest, the poem gives us that. Google maps doesn’t go down far enough, and with a forest probably in the mix, a clue could be hidden from view from all the trees, nothing tells us what the 3rd clue is or looks like, we just know a little kid will have a problem with it. Saying that we need to ‘find” the blaze, why not say “If you’ve been wise and solved the blaze? Maybe because you can’t solve for it, only can find it.
          We could definitely go back and forth with this. You make valid points, I make valid points, it’s just the nature of the chase I guess. It does make one think though, (the realization that all the clues cannot be solved), that would be a huge assumption. It’s this possibility that makes me say, solve the poem, find a way to solve the poem, no guessing. We can’t guess what a clue is, we can’t just pick some random spot because it fits, we can’t even match up all the info we do have outside of the poem, it must come from a solve of the poem. There are 24 lines but only 9 clues. We know one clue is line 5, (which I believe you are right, no way to solve wwwh with just that line), and we know that “the blaze” is another clue, forget the words that proceed that, he only said “the blaze”, because it’s one of the clues. So, it’s anybodies guess on what a clue is, where it is, what it looks like, or even it’s placement in the poem, we only know that they all come after line 5.
          It’s another tough sell, from lines 6-24, all the info for each individual clue is there. What it is, looks like, the distance, direction, whatever. With the wording at face value, it sure isn’t there. But yet, if we solve the poem, we have the spot.
          His point of view, he knew his spot, he wrote the poem on the assumption of finding that spot, the poem was written to be solved and yield a spot where the chest is. The clues were noticed afterwards. He didn’t write the poem by establishing clues to be solved to find his spot. He didn’t pick and choose clues, or base solving the poem on the clues. Him noticing there are 9 clues came after. So the solve was already there, the spot was already fixated. The clues had nothing to do with it. So, like him, we will find our spot, from the poem solve, and will find the clues, just like he did, afterwards. IMO.
          To solve the clues would be like f writing the clues within the poem to get to the special spot. That’s not what happened. He didn’t notice the 9 clues until after. So, how could he explain in the poem a solve for the clues if HE didn’t even know what a clue was at that time? That’s the big question Zap, if he didn’t know there were 9 clues as he was writing the poem, how could he put the answers for those 9 clues within the poem? Lol, just realized that. I do get things done here at work.
          It’s a pretty good point. If I write something saying where a certain spot is, finish that writing and notice that there are a couple clues on how to get there, I couldn’t have put the info there to solve for those clues because I didn’t know those clues were there. Lol, uh ohhhh…..

          • Charlie, you’re my new favorite person here. I love the “reverse engineering” clues from the spot. All you need is the poem and a good map. Pick a random wwwh, follow clues as far as you can… Dead end after 3 or 4? Pick a new wwwh until you can get to 8 more. Then, and only then can one be realitivley sure of the correct wwwh. This part is just my opinion…. The only thing you can’t find from home is the blaze. Good luck to all!

    • You speak as tho you knew fenns intent when he wrote that line, it very well could have to do with temp, as of now only one man knows for sure, and what does it’s matter to you what other people are doing with their solves, work yours the way you want and allow others the same courtesy… I won’t get into a discussion as to wether or not ice is warm as I feel that would be a long road to nowhere … as to wwwh being temp based I tend to lean more towards warm being a description of the name, mainly because temp is subjective, just ask my wife, she’s freezing while I’m sweating my ass off, but I won’t force that belief on others simply because their solve isn’t in line with mine… after all this is Merica And I have the god given right to be as wrong as I wanna be.

      • All I’m saying is that ice is warm. F would know this, so why make it about temp. It’s foolish to think otherwise. We hear it every year. You tell me to not tell others what to do while you’re telling me what to do. Okay, just pointed out a simple fact because I read somewhere somebody say when water freezes it’s not warm, it halts. It seems to wiggle into discussion every year. All I’m saying is to let the thought die in piece.
        I force nobody, searchers do what they want, but putting false info out is not helping anybody.
        To me, “I tend to lean more towards warm being a description of the name”.
        You can’t tell people to not tell people what to do while you’re telling someone what to do…You don’t even believe it is temp based, come on ……..

        • No I don’t beleive it’s temp based, but I’m not going to tell everyone else they’re wrong because I think I’m right, I have no clue of fenns intentions when he wrote that line, it’s merely my interpretation of it, and what makes sense to me, this forum is all about suggestinons because none of us really know the truth, your post had the illusion of suggesting while matter of factly telling everyone with a temp based solve for wwwh that they were wrong simply because you beleive yourself to be right, that’s not a suggestion that’s a statement..
          And I wasn’t telling everybody they’re wrong and to give up on a solve while providing zero evidence to back up my claim, I told one person NOT to tell everyone else what to beleive, there’s a very big difference between those two things

          • lol, I never said I was right. I figured most everyone would know ice has heat, but if you need an example:
            To boil water you need to apply heat. To boil liquid, you need to apply heat. The comment was when ice freezes, warm halts, or ice is only cold. That is not true. If I had a bucket of water, and added water to it, it does not boil. The liquid is at an equilibrium. If I have a liquid with a low temp boil rate, then cold things can make that liquid boil. Because one thing is applying heat to the other. Case in point, if I have a bucket full of liquid nitrogen, what do you think happens when I put frozen water/ice in the bucket. It boils like crazy, because you applied heat to get the reaction.
            If f is going to write that line, he is going to know about these things, he had 15 years or so. He tried to think of everything. Of course people are going to think temp. when they read that line. If someone actually thought about that line, they would know what f knows, that water does not halt and water frozen/ice has heat.
            Now, like Zap said, maybe he’s just saying something in a simple form. Maybe it’s just a spot that is warm and there is a small temp change, but that does not seem likely. It’s trying to figure out the usage of “halt”. I’ve already admitted that I may have been a little stern on my post and commented about that, you want to keep dwelling on that instead of addressing that actual thought and it’s intension. If a new searcher hears info on the blog, I’m sure he or she would like to believe that it is fact based if they are going to take a position. To just throw out info that is just wrong is not what the discussions needs. Plus, it’s all up to the individual searcher. If they believe one way, if they are so sure, what does it matter what another searcher says?
            I’m the only other one that knows where the chest is, I just don’t need to go get it, or everyone is wrong, SO WHAT, who cares? Whatever dude. Searchers will make up their own mind. If it was such a huge comment to post ice still has heat, really, who cares. It is not bogus info though, it is fact that can be considered. It’s also valid info that can help someone actually see the truth and approach at a different angle. I’m definitely not the one that sees only one way to solve this puzzle. I’m always looking at the flip side of any suggestion, and most of my posts try to show the other possible sides to solving a specific comment or hint or clue or ATF. All sides need to be addressed, it’s almost my own little saying.
            The thing is, you don’t believe it involves temp either. But tell me what to do because I told others what to do, and saying it’s wrong. You are doing exactly what I’m doing but I’m wrong, lol, okay…You are still telling one person what to do, there is no difference. I told others to re-evaluate their solve in regards to wwwh on factual info. Not just bogus information. My error is thinking everyone would know this simple fact, like I said, my bad. At least it is a better discussion then believing in a falsehood. It does make one think, and that is a good thing. Even if it came off a little aloof, I’m Aquarius, what do you expect??? (not that I believe in that)

    • “can we just put to rest that warm waters halt has nothing to do with temperature. ”


      “Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

      Not making anything certain or definite at this point.
      Options and possibilities are open, for me.

      • Hayduke,
        Couldn’t agree more, everything is still on the table simply because the treasure is still out there, and only one person knows where it is. So wether wwwh describes temp, or a feeling, or A urinal fenn used once at a truck stop in Colorado, if you can make it work go for it, and most importantly have fun

  66. Leaving the canyon out of Yellowstone several miles to Gallatin Gateway, at the Gateway the river cuts into several streams the Gallatin River changes character once again the water extremely warms . The textbook qualities of a classic freestone Brown trout fishery are evident here as it flows uninterrupted through the ranchlands and mature cottonwood stands towards Headwaters State Park and its confluence the Missouri River.

    • I dunno, DT. Both Gallatin Gateway and Headwaters/Confluence are under 5,000 ft elevation (Headwaters Park is barely 4000 ft). Are you considering going upstream from Gateway?


    • Forrest hiked along Gallatin Gateway from West Yellowstone to Bozeman with a close friend. I’m not sure if it had that name then. I wonder if this Gateway needs a key.

  67. “Begin it where warm waters halt” … I ask myself, why do words mean what they mean? FF’s words are written in a high frequency. Maybe our own visual reality becomes more important then what we read or hear. Imagination without programmed patterns will get one on the right path and in the wood. Find the language spoken in the poem and you will find the TC…. IMO

  68. How can a searcher have “WWWH, nailed down”, if they wouldn’t know they had the correct WWWH, until they found the chest? The “nailed down comment” sure makes it sound, like there’s a way to find the correct WWWH?

    • And the “wouldn’t know they had the correct wwwh until they find the chest” suggest that there isn’t, ive noticed fenn contradicts himself quite a bit, he also says that “the searcher who finds thebtreasure will have moved with confidence” how can you move with confidence if you don’t know your at the right spot until you find the treasure? Also the little girl in India can’t gt closer then the first 2 clues, which means you must be botg for clues 3-9, how can you move with confidence with only 2 out of 9 clues figured it out … he says people have figured out the correct wwwh and Home of brown, but went passed the rest of the clues, which suggest to me they were there by happenstance, not because of some secret message hidden within the poem that they uncovered, they just picked a random wwwh and went out looking… this poem is either incredibly complicated, or only makes sense to fenn.

      • Correction
        I said figured out wwwh and Home of brown, fenn actually said the first 2 clues… my apologies, that’s just what I interpret to be the first 2 clues

        • I can justify the little girl in India by not getting *physically* closer. For example. Wwh is eastern edge of Montana, canyon down is central Montana. The next clues then run basically north – south.

    • James,

      If I’m right, “nailed down” is a hint related to the big picture.


  69. Hi Liam, I also wonder why WWWH has to be nailed down, but we are not told that the HOB, has to be nailed down. It makes me wonder if HOB is even a clue, or maybe HOB is obvious, if you have the correct WWWH?

    • I am trying to refine my theory which works when I have HOB as acreage and WWWH as a location within that acreage. I know it does not comport with the general philosophy that is on this site, but, I have some compelling rationale based on an array of ‘hints’ gleaned from TTOTC and subsequent remarks made by FF. I am trying to ‘reverse-logic’ my theory to hopefully eliminate confirmation bias. There’s a fair to good chance that when it’s muddy in the Rockies, I’ll be stomping around and chasing with thrills abounding….

    • Maybe home of brown isnt that important, just made to appear like it’s really important, i don’t know tho… my problem is with not knowing you have the correct location until you find the treasure, that would suggest that there’s no definitive way using the book and poem to zero in on a spot, if you found some hidden info that said “start here” and all the clues lined up you would know you had the correct spot and you would move with confidence, he says the searcher who finds it will have read the poem over and over, read the book, thought and analyzed, and moved with confidence, how can you be confident when you won’t know for sure until you’ve found the treasure? That’s a paradoxical statement, you can’t be 100% confident before you find it, because you won’t even know your in the right spot until you find it.

      • The poem is what supplies the right spot. If you have the right spot, why do you care what the clues are? If f didn’t even know he had 9 clues until he was done writing the poem, how could he have written the poem to solve for clues?
        Are you trying to solve clues, or are you trying to solve the poem?
        He hides the chest, finishes the poem, notices 9 clues, writes the book, finalizes, distributes. Where are you going to find hints to the clues? It won’t be in a place before he knew there were 9 clues, right?
        They would be in a place after. Aka, the book, ATF’s, interviews, comments, posts, things like that.
        He says constantly, back to the poem, read the poem, analyze the poem, see the pattern? The poem is all that is needed. It was written to find a spot that has a chest. The clues were not written on purpose, they were noticed afterwards. Now, whether the clues were certain parts of the poem that revealed the path, well that is different. But, as far as purposely writing out the solve for 9 clues within the poem, that just did not happen.
        It leads to this: (and since you don’t like me offering what to do, I will yield to common sense), you may be right, in fact I think you are, hoB just is not that important. neither is wwh, the blaze, place that’s meek, etc… Sounds foolish, right? But think, it is the poem itself that is important. If you are so worried about having the correct wwwh, hoB, etc… then that would lead to trying to solve clues, not the poem, right or wrong?
        So, think about it, how can we know all the clues for sure? like you said, only after we have the chest. How do we know where to start? like you said, only after we have the chest. So, what is so “paradoxical”? Is it that we won’t know the clues until we have the chest? That tells me that there is an emphasis on solving clues, or, the clues are what need to be known first to find the chest.
        So, think about it again, the poem was not written that way, it was written to lead us to a spot, the chest. That is it’s purpose. Not to solve clues. He didn’t even know all the clues while he was writing the poem. He did know the spot though.
        If you were trying to only solve the poem to get that spot, needing to find wwh, hoB, or whatever would not be so important. The clues will be on your path, if you don’t have the correct starting place, you didn’t solve the poem correctly. The only way to know that, is to go to your spot the poem told you to go to and look. If you have the chest, you had the correct starting spot, and will know what the clues are, if you don’t have the chest, it’s not that you have the wrong start spot, it’s that you solved the poem incorrectly.

        • That’s a very lengthy response to have completely missed the point I was making… I agree, you don’t solve the clues you solve the poem, I’ve always approached the poem like it has two layers, on the surface is a point by point treasure hunt, and in a deeper layer, hidden in plain sight is the starting point… my point that I was making is that if you solve the poem (not the clues, but the poem) you should know for sure where the correct starting point is, you would have to otherwise it’s still just Up to interpretation … so how then can you not be 100% certain you have the right spot, unless you find the treasure? If the poem is “solvable” then there should only be one possible conclusion, it shouldn’t rely on finding the treasure to know for certain that you’ve solved the poem, indulgence is just the prize not the goal, the goal is solving the poem. So yes if in fact the poem is solvable then it is a paradoxical statement that you can’t know for sure you’ve solved it until you find the treasure, it’s the chicken and the egg, solving the poem leads you to the treasure, but you won’t know for sure you solved it til you have the treasure, so what comes first, the solve? Or the treasure ? If it’s solvable there can be only one answer

          • Liam you wants asked me how it was that I seem to answer questions or make comments so matter-of-factly on the forum.

            This is because my interpretation or solve for the second stanza in the poem has a triple verification of where warm waters halt and This location also fits the hint given in stanza one; “hint of riches new and old.”

            Nanny will claim that this sounds too good to be true however when forest says that it’s solvable it is and when he says that a person can’t be absolutely positive that they have the first clue solve correctly that is true also given the correct interpretation of how to solve the poem’s clues in their entirety.

            And further proof of this can be found in Forrest own comments; in that a searcher could possibly find the treasure if they had solved at least the first few clues.

            That’s how important the first four or five clues are.

            I believe that I have correctly interpreted at least the first five clues and they give me great confidence -additionally my current solve makes everything that Forrest says about the hunt seem perfectly logical given my understanding of the poem…


          • Im not sure why the confidence and wont know statements are so hard to understand.

            If I studied for my exam, I can go in with high confidence, but I won’t know if I passed until I get the grade.

            Wheres the conflict at? I studied the poem, read the book, looked at maps, reviewed other things, and gained a high confidence when I go to my wwwh. I wont know that I am right until I get the chest though. I have to pass 8 other clues as well, so my wwwh could be right but my other answers are wrong.

            Trial and error will be needed imo. An armchair solve, while possible, will be extremely unlikely to get to the chest the he 1st time searching.

          • The confidence statement is nothing more than talk. It’s meaningless and even harmful to your success. If I walk into an exam with confidence, I can guarantee that I won’t fail.
            But, this is a challenge unlike any other on the planet. Confidence is overrated because everyone has it and yet all but one will fail.
            I have no confidence in any of my clues and that’s my secret – I never stop trying to find the right answers.

          • The previous post was done using voice to text — I won’t be doing that again with out a very good proof reading!

            Liam – you once asked me… …

            Many (not Nanny) will think this is too good to be true… …

            Kira, I agree with your analogy of taking an exam (being confident doesn’t in anyway conflict with NOT KNOWING for SURE).

            “home of Brown” (HOB) is very important in fact critical to solving the poem and finding the treasure!

            Remember its part of Stanza #2 and the all important first few clues!


          • Indy, you are ignoring other possibilities for why f used the word confidence. Using confidence in another way than just how you are interpreting it can maybe help and not be meaningless as you suggest.

      • Liam,

        I have no idea if my current path thru the poem is getting me closer to the chest or not, but I am convinced almost everything in it is important in one way another.

        it has been mentioned here before and I agree that there are hints and clues. What’s a hint and what’s a clue is for the searcher to decide. And who knows, a hint could be combined with a clue. I’ve found eaxamples of these, but again, who knows if I’m right.

        The key is to keep an open mind and try to refrain from discounting anything, including the possibility that some of the hints/clues are not in the RMs. I could give an example but that would be giving away too much in terms of means/methods and a big hint to boot……..IMO.


  70. Warmwater rivers are flowing waters with maximum water temperatures typically greater than 25 degrees Celsius. They usually have watershed areas greater than 500 square miles and mean annual flow rates of more than 200 cubic feet per second.

  71. A watershed is the area of land where all of the water that is under it or drains off of it goes into the same place. John Wesley Powell, scientist geographer, put it best when he said that a watershed is:

    “that area of land, a bounded hydrologic system, within which all living things are inextricably linked by their common water course and where, as humans settled, simple logic demanded that they become part of a community.”

  72. I had another thought on WWWH. Even though Mr. Fenn said that a searcher wouldn’t know they had the correct WWWH, until they found the chest. Doesn’t mean that the book or poem, doesn’t give us a WWWH. We still wouldn’t know it was correct until we found the chest.

    • I believe, James, that you could only get wwwh from the poem solve. Nothing solves for wwwh except the solution of the poem. The poem finds your spot, the path is mapped out how to get to that spot, where a start place can be deciphered. He said there are 1000’s of wwh in the Rockies, they would match any clue, hint whatever, that f could come up with. Especially with the wording he has used. It was still end up being 1000’s of places. There is only one, just like there is only one spot. Start at the end to find the beginning.
      He has not said to solve who he is, he says to solve the poem. If we go by his back stories, and get a profile of him, it may help in seeing his way of doing things, but will not give a wwwh. So, just because he bathed somewhere, or has vacationed there, or it’s just something that fits the wording, will not help in deciphering wwwh, IMO.
      That is the reason he could say, you won’t know until you have the chest. Word it better like, you won’t know until you have the spot. You could only know wwwh if you know the spot, you can only get the spot if you solve the poem.
      Solving the poem is different then solving clues. He has even said that to solve some of the clues you need BotG. So, if you have a solve where all the clues are identified and deciphered, and you have not been BotG, then the solve is wrong. The info for all the clues is not there. The searcher has fabricated a solve, instead of solved the poem.
      This is another reason he has said, playing a hunch or guessing has no place in the chase, paraphrasing. As soon as someone says, I start at a certain spot because warm waters halt, or tears of some people, or train stations, or whatever, or give us some history of a place, without showing how they solved it from the poem, is a hunch or a guess. It won’t work. If someone wants to share their wwwh, then they would have to convince they have the correct ENDING spot from solving the poem. When our thoughts, guesses, interpretations, definitions, or beliefs of what we would do come into the mix of solving the poem, we are looking for disaster. The poem is the tell all, it takes care of all that because f thought of almost everything. 15 years is a long time to adjust the solve, we’ve only been trying to solve it for half that time, imagine the preciseness he could come up with. He will tell us wwwh, and he has said you won’t know until you have the spot. So, no solving that hint on it’s own. IMO.

    • Goodness, charlie, are you capable of a concise reply?

      “Nothing solves for wwwh except the solution of the poem.”

      Your opinion, and utterly false in mine.

      “He said there are 1000’s of wwh in the Rockies, they would match any clue, hint whatever, that f could come up with.”

      Again, disagree. IMO, Forrest provided the hints/clues necessary to isolate one WWWH from all the others.

      “Start at the end to find the beginning.”

      VERY, VERY BAD IDEA! Utterly violates multiple statements by Forrest.

      “Solving the poem is different then (sic) solving clues.”

      Not is isn’t. They are the same.

      “He has even said that to solve some of the clues you need BotG.”

      No, those were not his words.

      You think “solving the poem” is finding hidden coordinates within it and back-solving all the clues. This thinking is delusional and self-serving, in my opinion. Your coordinate extraction system is fanciful, overly complex, and in my opinion completely erroneous. I can conjure up better, simpler systems that generate coordinates using a minimal number of steps that are more believable than yours, and even so I would never hang my hat on them.

      You have convinced yourself that there is no way for a searcher to select one WWWH from of all the others, but you lack imagination. The poem gives exactly one precise spot, IMO. And no, you don’t need to solve ANY of the other clues to figure it out, and it won’t be a guess. You’ll be very confident it’s correct.

      You have been trying to solve the end point. Forrest says you will fail. The clues must be solved and followed in order. There is no other way.

      • come on Zap… James, Charlie and anyone else can use whatever (means of understanding) they want to. there is NO wrong idea until after the TREASURE is found.

        Let’s say that the treasure is found this summer and that person says “they first found what they believe to be the Blaze and then everything fell into place where their solve took them from the the correct wwwh back to the blaze and then the final resting place.” For them… that is how it worked out. Are you gonna tell them they were wrong for solving the chase in such a manner?

      • Hi james (TZP): “come on Zap… James, Charlie and anyone else can use whatever (means of understanding) they want to.” Yes, they absolutely can. But I’m surprised anyone would deliberately choose an approach that Forrest says will fail. Why ignore Forrest’s advice? Why make it harder on yourself?

        “there is NO wrong idea until after the TREASURE is found.”

        Well, that’s not really true, as I’m sure you know. There are plenty of bad ideas out there that we “know” are wrong (e.g. treasure in Idaho, in a tunnel, in a cave, on top of a mountain, buried under an outhouse, submerged in a lake, etc.)

        “Let’s say that the treasure is found this summer and that person says ‘they first found what they believe to be the Blaze and then everything fell into place where their solve took them from the the correct wwwh back to the blaze and then the final resting place.’” You can hypothesize this, but the odds against it are astronomical. Forrest said there are ten billion blazes out there, and you’ll never find the treasure that way because the odds of a searcher just stumbling across the right blaze are almost nil.

        In my opinion, the future successful searcher will have first figured out WWWH and the correct canyon — as many have done before him or her. What will differentiate them from the others is solving the correct home of Brown — and deciphering which direction to go from there. There won’t be any guesswork, and their path will be complete unambiguous because (IMO) they will already know what and where the blaze is, will know why “lots of folks” have been within 500 feet, and will fully appreciate why no one before has gotten closer than 200 feet.

        • “Let’s say that the treasure is found this summer and that person says ‘they first found what they believe to be the Blaze and then everything fell into place where their solve took them from the the correct wwwh back to the blaze and then the final resting place.’” You can hypothesize this, but the odds against it are astronomical. Forrest said there are ten billion blazes out there, and you’ll never find the treasure that way because the odds of a searcher just stumbling across the right blaze are almost nil.”

          Yes the odds are astronomical against finding the blaze first and then figuring out the rest of the poem, but not impossible. The first time I saw a picture of the blaze, I said thats it.

        • Hi John: it’s doubtful the blaze is unique to the point of being recognizable by anyone from just its picture (e.g. it’s not Old Faithful). I suspect that if and when a photo of Forrest’s intended blaze is produced, few will have any idea where the picture was taken.

          • You are correct, few would have any idea where the photo was taken. But I am sure that many people would recognize it as the blaze. The blaze is unique to the point of recognition. Remember Scouts question: Is the blaze one single object? And Forrest’s response: In a word – Yes. I believe there are 4 blazes in the poem. The first one is the one that drew me to the location. The other 3 blazes were trail markers as I solved the clues. These additional blazes would not be recognizable unless someone had solved the clues.

          • Zap, you said, ” it’s doubtful the blaze is unique to the point of being recognizable by anyone from just its picture (e.g. it’s not Old Faithful). I suspect that if and when a photo of Forrest’s intended blaze is produced, few will have any idea where the picture was taken.”

            In a way true and in a way false. IMHO when the picture of the blaze (is) shown… people will go “Damn… I see it and understand it”… again just my opinion. NO body has said it was a very well recognizable famous image.

          • James(TZP): I guess what I’m trying to say is that I could show you 100 pictures of 100 different places, each with something distinctive in it that stands out, and you would have no way of knowing which picture corresponded to Forrest’s blaze. Unless the clues led you to it, I don’t think you would have any way of choosing Forrest’s blaze out of the billions of other blazes in the Rockies. In other words, it may be locally distinctive, but not globally so.

      • Zap, when have I ever said I did not solve clues? I have stated many times that the coordinates are not the tell all. You said:
        The poem gives exactly one precise spot, IMO. And no, you don’t need to solve ANY of the other clues to figure it out, and it won’t be a guess. You’ll be very confident it’s correct

        Well duh, isn’t that what I’ve been saying?

        You go on about what I think, half the time I don’t even know what to think, I’m sure you guessing at what I think is somewhat how you approach solving this puzzle. It’s Zap’s way or forget it.

        “He has even said that to solve some of the clues you need BotG.”

        No, those were not his words

        Sorry, I didn’t quote him. A physical presents tells me I have to be there, but you think what you want.

        You think “solving the poem” is finding hidden coordinates within it and back-solving all the clues. This thinking is delusional and self-serving, in my opinion. Your coordinate extraction system is fanciful, overly complex, and in my opinion completely erroneous.

        Lol, not even going to reply to such foolishness.

        Zap, you have said to solve clues, in order, that the previous clue is needed to move on. Now tou say, The poem gives exactly one precise spot, IMO. And no, you don’t need to solve ANY of the other clues to figure it out, and it won’t be a guess. Lol, just keep changing things around so you can tell yourself you’re still in the chase. I think you have to much imagination and not enough common sense. IMO, you cannot get the one wwwh until solving the poem. Not until you have your spot. The poem was not written to solve all the clues. He didn’t even know he had 9 clues until he was done, how could he have told us how to solve for something he was not aware of yet? You are reading the poem wrong, IMO. Common sense, Zap, common sense.

        • Good evening, Charlie. I think you and I may just have to accept that our approaches to solving Forrest’s puzzle are “diabolically opposed” to one another, to borrow Forrest’s amusing turn of phrase. I have tried to write succinctly but clearly, and yet understanding doesn’t seem to be forthcoming. Perhaps the fault is mine. So here I’ll be as blunt as I can, all of the following being of course my stated opinion, not demonstrated fact:

          1. WWWH is clue #1 and the starting point (and I’m almost ready to say that it isn’t just my opinion, it is a fact from Forrest’s own mouth)

          2. If you had only the poem line “Begin it where warm waters halt,” and Forrest’s statement that the treasure was hidden somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe, you would likely never solve it. Not in a hundred thousand guesses.

          3. But if you have the first stanza, you have enough information to correctly identify WWWH, but you won’t be 100% sure you’re right.

          4. If you have the entire poem and TTOTC, you still won’t be 100% convinced you’re right about WWWH, but you’ll be sure enough that you’ll never consider another starting point.

          5. Many tens of thousands of people have been to WWWH, and a not insignificant number of them happened to be searchers. Most of those searchers were probably oblivious. But some of them absolutely knew it and were there deliberately.

          6. WWWH is solvable without having any idea what the solutions are to clues 3-9.

          I don’t think you’ll agree with most of my points 1 though 6, and since I’m confident I won’t be persuaded into disagreeing with even one of them, we should maybe just leave it at that.

          • Actually Zap, I agree with all except 3. I believe the first stanza is seen from the beginning, when he was sick. My first line says, as I have the ail, but it gives a hint on how to read the poem. The first stanza that is. The way I see the poem, Break down each line, make it it’s own puzzle, follow the instructions, that’s it. It just so happens numbers come up, that’s all.
            So, #1- I agree, have for a long time, before the interview.
            #2- Agree, line 5 does not solve wwwh. I’ll even say that it’s a reference, and that’s all. A lot of ways to see wwwh is in this line, I think the correct wwwh will have in it, :Nailed down, warm water, (be it by name), something with tears, something with a train halt, if not more references from somewhere else. But line 5 alone, and some info, no way.
            #3- I disagree, I just don’t thing the first stanza holds the answer to a unique place, I don’t see it, doesn’t mean it’s not there, I just don’t see it.
            #4- I don’t know if I agree or not. If you have the whole poem solved, then yes,
            #5- Yes and no, I just don’t think the one’s that were there knew. They still question it in their heads.
            #6- Agree, 3-9 will not help with wwwh.

            I think the poem is solvable, (forget numbers), it gives you a spot, we agree, It’s through this solve, that gives you this spot, that you can figure out what wwwh is. I believe you have no choice in the path you take to start at wwwh is. To get to the spot the poem yielded, you must start your path somewhere, at wwwh.
            I’ll say it like this, Does f need the clues to get to where he hid the chest? Of course not, he could go right straight to it. His path would most likely involve all the clues, but does he need them? No. So, If I solve the poem, I know what f knows, I don’t need the clues, I most likely will follow them, but like f, I could go right straight to the chest. F did not write the poem thinking about just 9 clues, he thought about one spot, that’s how I see it.
            Don’t get me wrong, I still believe the poem answers clues, just not the obvious one’s. Remember, he said there are no hints in the book that will help you solve for: wwwh, the blaze, Brown, hoB, with the poem in the book, the info was just no supplied by him to solve those things. Again, I think it’s the one thing that searchers have not considered for a winning solve, that all the clues cannot be solved.
            It’s good discussion, to think we both have totally different spots but both have so much info to prove they are right. Like you, I spend a lot of time trying to prove it wrong. There’s just that little bit that just is not possible, must be by design, just no other way to look at it. To think, the coins in the chest comes into play, along with, alligators, marbles, E. Sloane, his name, pages in the book, book of days, just so much info that can be answered for.Like I said before, and maybe you feel the same way, for everything I have, I’m just not smart enough to come up with it all, something told me. Something instructed me to do something and it worked out. When I do finally post a solve, and you see how to get the numbers, and what they add up to and everywhere they are, you will agree, I’m just not smart enough to have it work out the way it did. At least with the time spent so far.
            I do think you are right. We could Rowe vs. Wade this thing to death and still not inch to either side. I’m okay with that…

          • Charlie,

            You said “Remember, he said there are no hints in the book that will help you solve for: wwwh, the blaze, Brown, hoB, with the poem in the book, the info was just no supplied by him to solve those things.”

            My recollection is that he said exactly the opposite many times, like this from a CBC As It Happens radio interview on 3/5/13; “The clues are in the poem and my book has hints that will help a person with the clues. The book won’t take you to the treasure chest, but the book will help you with the clues that are in the poem.”

            And then we have your recent post of the Blaze is meant to throw off the searcher that you’re now trying to find in your notes.

            Observation – Credibility suffers when accuracy wains or takes a back seat. Just something you might want to seriously think about when posting in regards to something Forrest has said.


  73. My WWWH spot is Gardiner, MT. I am lead here by thinking of the boiling hot water from the Boiling River (Mammoth Hot Springs) mixing with the cold water of the Gardner River creating warm waters. The Gardner River empties into the Yellowstone River at Gardiner, MT. (IMO: where warm waters halt). What I like about this location is that Gardiner, MT. is the very first opportunity one can begin to float the Yellowstone River, floating the Yellowstone is not allowed in the park. (IMO: Begin it). Take it in the canyon down (Yankee Jim Canyon is not far from Gardiner, MT. but certainly too far to walk). Put in below HoB (Joe Brown Put In). The word below is used by fishermen to pinpoint locations along a river using landmarks. (IMO: below this or above that along the river, not meaning directly below). I know at some point Joe Brown lived in the Gardiner, MT. area, but I could not find exactly where. No place for the meek, Yankee Jim Canyon has white water rafting (certainly not for the meek), it also has heavy loads and water high. After going through the canyon it leaves you to a beautiful valley….I forget whats its called. Forrest was a fly fishing guide, lived relatively nearby, and liked to bath in hot springs. This is all in my opinion of course and I know there have been many in that area but I am not aware of any laying it out like I did above. I always try to find valid information that supports my thoughts. The trouble I am having is the blaze.

    • Josh- It sounds like a reasonable place to look given the solutions you present to the clues. IMO, the blaze is something we are all going to struggle with because I don’t think you can know for sure what it is without BOTG, even if you think you have found one on a map. I *think* I have found mine on a map, but it’s the only part of my solution that I am not completely confident in. So if you have made all those connections and have an opportunity to go search, I say go for it! Happy Hunting

      • Thanks KK, I did make one trip out there. Not 100% sure on my blaze and my trip was cut short, so I had no time to further investigate.

    • One thing to note with your solution, which I’m sure you’re aware of Josh, is that you are flirting with the 5,000-foot minimum elevation. Yellowstone River is still safely above 5,000′ if you don’t go too far downstream, and of course the surrounding terrain is higher still, so technically you’re still okay.

      • Thanks Zaphod. I remember the name of the valley now…Paradise Valley. I had to go down that rabbit hole to explain my theory and then support it by a physical location. I am working on that Blaze though. Good luck and I am looking forward to learning about some of your theories.

        • This was part of my first solve….”No place for the Meek” i wondered could be Paradise Valley. (I even ran into another searcher halfway up the mountain at Joe Brown Creek). There were other interesting supporting clues around this website which eventually lead us a nice waterfall. This was where i turned to go and saw an elderly man with his wife and a younger woman approaching the waterfall, smiling.

          NO WAY.

          I immediately scheduled another week off work and scoured the area to no avail. It’s a beautiful place, that valley. I’m still not sure it was him, my GF thinks it was.

          • Sean, my solve keeps me near the river banks. The river is public property includng the areas marked by the high water mark when the river is low. I believe the no paddle up your creek is an idiom (IMO: that line in the poem is suggesting you will find yourself in an unfamiliar position that requires effort; to me it does not mean go up a creek). Also the line in the poem… if you are brave and in the wood (IMO: another idiom; your in the wood because you are not out of the woods/to me also supporting a similar thought to the up the creek line).

          • Josh,
            The legal challenges of finding a Treasure of significant value, could indeed be greatly reduced, if it were found in a fundamentally public accessible area like between the high water marks of “your creek.”

            However the difficulty here is, Forrest has said that the treasure isn’t underwater… If the treasure chest were hidden between the high water marks of a specific creek or draw then at some point, by definition, it is underwater.

            Also I love your comments relative to looking at lines in the poem from the context of the “idiom” or the home spun wisdom or home spun idea the line expresses.

            I have especially dedicated a lot of EXEGESIS to the phrase;
            “There’ll be no paddle up your creek,” specifically because it seems Forrest use of language (IMHO) works like a magician in its means of misdirection.

            Also Forrest has said that perhaps the key to successfully solving the poems clues will be a matter of “adjustment.” The question here is; what kind of adjustments is Forrest referring too?

            It seems to me that one of the mental adjustments necessary is unraveling our preconceived notions relative to particular phrases and clauses. For instance, the classic phrase is; “Stuck up a creek without a paddle.” This of course means YOU are in a bad situation WITHOUT a means to get out of it or you could even say NAVIGATE out of it…

            However Forrest turns this well-known saying on its head in the poem by saying; “there’ll be NO paddle up your creek,” instead of “up YOUR creek WITH NO paddle.” So the reader then has to mentally “twist” their mind because this is a play, on a play of words, or a twisting of an idiom for an all new creative purpose!
            Forrest has used this phrase himself; “Well Andrew, I’m not sure “admire” is the right word but if we twist it a little maybe we can make it work.”
            So what is the TWIST, Forrest intends us to make of his new phrase?
            In the original idiom a paddle is the tool used to propel and steer a canoe threw treacherous waters but in the poems case there will be no paddle… … Therefore what or how do we navigate ourselves out of the predicament we are in? If not a paddle, then what is the tool needed? We are not, “UP A CREEK” but instead, “YOUR CREEK.” What is the creek of our predicament?


          • GCG, thanks for your reply. I appreciate and agree with your thoughts. It’s still a work in progress but I think I have a tight focus on the big picture. What are your thoughts on the blaze?

  74. I wish I could share my “WWWH” interpretation. It would potentially unravel my entire solve. Although “heavy loads and water high” did stump me for a bit. but after that my solve just “happened” I could be dead wrong of course. but i didn’t try to pick out the 9 clues, but the phrases that led me to my spot ended up coming out to 8 geographic locations/map features. With the blaze possibly being connected with a map feature, but I can’t rule out other spots close by especially given the 6 questions interview. I’m gonna head to my spot in a week or so. hopefully I dont join the “200ft club” and walk past it. After I get back I’ll share my entire solve. I’m only giving it one shot after that im done with the chase. so if i somehow miss the chest someone else can pick up where i left off. maybe they’d share a few gold coins in return.

  75. Josh,

    My comments regarding the Blaze are in that section of the Forum site.
    I only mentioned “paddle up your creek above” as an example in exegesis of the poems potential clue lines.

    The same level of exegesis is possible with WWWH and “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,”

    Interestingly enough to me is that the word “found” and “drawing” are the two most complex words in the poem, in terms of potential meanings.

    The breakdowns of “where warm waters halt” and “no paddle up your creek” are more about the nature of the idiom or the riddle of the phrase versus other lines which I believe are more about the breakdown of the individual words themselves. This too is a matter of adjustment that the searcher or decoder has to perform in the process of unraveling or twisting out the meaning of the 9 clues in the poem.


  76. IMO…. Warm Waters cannot physically halt. Imagine a border on a good map. The map is in the book.


        • yup, we all know warm water does not physically halt. (halt meaning stop) Since f thought of everything, I’m sure that he would know the science types out here would educate the masses on the subject if it came up. In trying to think of everything, I wonder how detailed he actually would get, thinking 100 years in the future? It would have to be simple enough to not give certain groups of people an advantage. Also vague enough to last some time. There will be references to his stories.
          Hasn’t Kryptos been solved for two parts? Police probably have figured out who the zodiac killer is, some of it has been solved, Enigma, solved, all these things I consider very hard, so why is f’s puzzle just as hard? But in a simple way? The two clues people have been to, they didn’t know it. So basically, not one part of this puzzle has been solved. If it was to keep it simple, this thing would have been solved a long time ago.
          So, when we look at things like wwwh, I believe f knew who would be searching and knew what he was saying. Nobody starts with an advantage…To tell you the truth, f could have just said “I hid a chest with two million dollars worth of items in the Rocky Mountains” and left it at that, we would still all be at the same place…

          • Well, whats left of Kryptos (one would guess) and Enigma could be solved by sitting and thinking. If the “final” solution to Enigma was in Berlin somewhere, or Kryptos (which may actually be in Berlin somewhere, I saw the clock) and one must be BOTG to figure it out, then it would probably he just as hard as the Chase. My opinion.

  77. I say study fly fishing and the difference in warm water fish and cold water fish. Brown Trout are cold water fish.

    • IMO- Mr. f uses warm in the sense like it is used in the saying….”He received a warm reception”. Now you don’t think a warm reception means it was hot in the room do you?

      IMO- Find a place on the map where it suddenly is the opposite of a “warm reception”

      Best regards;


      • IMO- Trying to find WWWH by studying warm and cold water fish, is analogous to studying the difference in people who go to church and those that go to boxing matches.. Brown trout don’t go to church…….IMO


        • John,
          Correct on studying fly fishing. I do not believe it is Brown trout but does have something to do with fly fishing.
          There is a very specific answer to the WWWH clue.
          Forrest knows what this is as he was an avid fly fisherman.
          As a caveat….my thinking applies only to my solve. I am not saying I am right and have found the treasure. Any other solve is just as good or valid as mine.
          Just my two cents.


          • Lug,

            Would really like to but would be giving too much of my solve away. Still want to get out to my search area one more time.
            My wife and I came across the specific subject while reading a trout fishing book.
            That’s why I said Forrest would know…only because a seasoned trout fisherman/person would know….of which I am not one. Just read it in a book.
            He referenced a trout book in one of his scrapbooks….one he was fond of and was printed many years ago.

          • Flywater has a couple of editions. I have one, but one of the newer ones. Probably does NOT have a picture in it that is important to Forrest – DARN! JDA

  78. If you have never been botg it is much more difficult to identify any of the clues. Wwwh is most likely easier to identify when the waters are warm. Unless you have been botg and you know the difference. Just another nuts opiñon.

    • Right Falllingrock, BOG is much much harder… perhaps thats why FF said to try and marry the clues to places on a MAP.

      That ‘draw an X’ thing is very tempting. Draw from point A to B, lift your pen, draw from C to D, then check out the intersection.

      Well, back to the meat locker for me. Good luck.

  79. WWWH is IMO a very broad term. It encompasses multiple areas. But you do indeed have to know where it is in order to find the next clue. The clues get more specific as you get to the bottom, and don’t be mislead…although there are only 9 directional clues, there are many more that allude to the area.

  80. I once thought that WWWH meant geysers. since they shoot up and for an instant in time when the water reaches the apex it stops and falls back down. but there are too many geysers out there so i dropped the idea for one i liked better. I had to find somewhere that could only be one spot. my current WWWH makes sense when I interpret the line in 5 different ways. After I test my solve I’ll share my ideas here.

    i think my idea is pretty cool and I want to talk about it. If my solve leads me to the chest, and if I ever tried to create another chase I dunno if I could keep my secrets as well as forrest does. I have a big mouth. I guess I could have my wife write one part of the riddle and I write the other. that way we don’t know each others answers. it probably doesn’t matter anyway cuz the odds my solve is the right one are small, but i’ll give it a shot.

    • Good luck. Your “moniker” gives new meaning to the statement, “I hope that the treasure is found by someone else”
      Again good luck to you – JDA

    • Somone Else –

      I would like to hear your thinking on a WWWH that is unique.

      Sounds interesting. (And impossible)


  81. New to this, and don’t intend to look for it on the ground, or spend anymore time on this, but my take is that the warm waters (plural) is fairly well defined. Firehole, Gardiner, Madison, the Yellowstone. If you look at the big picture, it’s a watershed. All watersheds have boundaries, defined by their catchments, an edge, where it stops, halts if you will. In this case it’s the continental divide. Now the divide spans the entire search area, but these warm waters limit this and gives direction down. Needs to be far more specific, if we use the whole poem, what sticks out to me are 6 stanzas of 4 lines each, 64 does not seem to do much, but 46. The 46th parallel crosses the divide near Anaconda Montana, in what looks to be a fairly assessable area. Beaver Creek, home of Brown? maybe?

  82. Access to the Boiling River (Gardner R south of Gardiner, MN) has been HALTed. Ooops, went and gave away my WWWH.

  83. Boiling River feeds the Gardner. The spot it feeds is a very comfortable place to sit and enjoy as long as you do not get out too far and pushed away with the current.

  84. Whew, just blitzed through this thread to try to catch up. Lots of plausible places that could be “where warm waters halt”. It occurred to me that nobody has mentioned in my uncertain knowledge “fire water” – cheap whiskey. This thought arose from the thought of it not being about temperature, but perceived heat. Acid burns, as does dry ice. What might be in the Rockies that tricks our senses into thinking we are warmer than we really are? (And I really don’t think Mr. Fenn was talking about our livers, where alcohol is broken down.) Just trying to kick-start some more “out of the box” thinking about where to start the search.

    • @swwot re: alcohol being WWWH, this was touched on a few years ago about the time I first got into hoD and thinking about ‘dry counties’ places where booze isn’t or wasn’t sold, prohibition etc. I’ve read a few good stories by Hemingway regarding bootleggers too! F has said there’s lots of places WWWH and most are….you know the rest. I’m sticking with warm water temps that turn cooler due to cascading down some rapids and other cooler streams mixing in. Where the one and only is located I do not know! Thinking I’ll be sad if the TC is found this season, hoping it last a few more years.

      • Cholly, I’ve only been around now, going on three years or so, so I had not heard about the dry counties, et al. FWIW, I won’t be surprised if it is not found in my lifetime (turned 60 a couple months back). But I really enjoy “listening in” on the various conversations to see if anyone has thought of anything novel that might help my tired old brain along to something resembling a solution. I have no real good idea of where to begin, as I have not “nailed down” a WWWH.

        Floundering around anyways,

        • swwot;

          You say that you recently turned 60, and then say,” that might help my tired old brain” – At 75 I do not yet consider my brain as being a “Tired old Brain”!!! Heck, you are a spring chicken – Just as I am a spring chicken to Forrest.

          All I have is two good brain cells, and one flutters on and off every now and then – but it “Ain’t old” yet 🙂 haha – JDA

          • JDA,

            Thanx for the encouraging words calling me a spring chicken. I consider myself fully sprung, however – ha! 🙂

            I’m with you though on the number of synapses that still carry a spark of thought in my noodle.

            Thanx for the friendly rejoinder.

    • Let me be first in line if there is – you know guys like me need to get an edge somewhere – somehow – 🙂 – JDA

      • JDA ,

        If ever you do begin to feel your memory is not what it use to be, there is a lot of research going on in the field of Alzheimer’s disease and we are going to beat it but more importantly there are a large number of clinical trials people can take part in and the vast majority of them can only help…

        Do your own research but the experimental of us, can look into self medicating — a very interesting molecule which is a potent reducer of levels of beta amyloid, the main constituent of amyloid plaques in Alzheimer’s disease is called;
        (R)-(−)-2-Fluoro-α-methyl-4-biphenylacetic acid

        Anyway, just some thoughts to keep your thoughts going strong and your warm waters hot!


  85. Someone has thought that the emphasis may be:

    Begin it WHERE warm waters halt.

    And not

    Begin it where warm WATERS halt ??

    What we have to look for:

    A PLACE or THING where Warm Waters usually accumulate?

    Which Warm Waters can be any liquid, even blood ??

    What would be a UNIQUE AND SINGULAR place ??

    Where would we find ALL the clues ??

    Why is it so hard to find ??

  86. Something to think about. Lately, I’ve been saying that the searcher will know the final spot before they knew wwwh is. Meaning by solving the poem you would get a spot, then you can see where to start from. That wwwh really does not have a way to correctly solve for it. F has said as much. To back this up, remember he said this not so talked about comment:

    You have to find out- you have to learn where the first clue is. They get progressively easier after you discover where the first clue is.

    If the poem does yield a spot, then you would need to find “out”, and learn where the first clue is…Your starting point.

    So, when f also says this:
    You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh, and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
    No I don’t madam, sorry. F
    I believe him. There is no correct answer for some of the clues. you just cannot solve for some of them.
    F knows all the clues, but is not sure if someone has figured out the forth or not? Someone could have taken a picture, and not known it was the forth clue. With f knowing that the searcher has arrived at the forth clue, and that he has not given the info to solve for it correctly, what else could he say. Obvious the searcher didn’t know, but arrived without knowing still the same.
    With the first clue so important, or the importance of the “starting point”, the fact that the first clue cannot be solved is something to think about…

    • Charlie ~’…the fact that the first clue cannot be solved is something to think about…’

      How do we get around the many comments about; if you don’t have the first clue…wwwh… stay home, line of thinking. To have or understand the first clue prior to a search seems imperative, regardless of how you deciphered it.
      Learn means; by studying, taught, experience… one of the first suggestion fenn ever gave was to think and analyze. We only had two things to do this with, the poem and the book. I’ll add, fenn said the book his enough to ‘help’ the average person [ paraphrasing ]. Never did he say ‘answers’ anything.

      I mean, does just being at a clue’s reference say it’s been deciphered, solved, figured out? I believe at one time fenn may have said; he looks for key words [ e-mails ]. Regardless if the searcher [e-mailer ] realized they solved a clues reference or not… it seemed enough for fenn to say they indicated it correctly.
      It seems Little Indy could have solved the first two, and never been to the location, right?
      WWWH seems a must to be able to decipher, from home, and prior to ever setting foot in the search area.

  87. The idea of “thinking outside the box” seems to be a popular one, so here goes . . .

    There have been many different ideas posted about what “warm waters” might mean. The
    list of these ideas seems to (so far) include

    water in a river
    water in the Gulf of Mexico
    people (since they contain water)

    But today I had a new idea that might be a valid (if not very helpful) one. Saliva is mostly
    warm water. And since we are talking about the Rocky Mountains, Moose Drool ale
    comes to mind . . . please “bear” with me just a little while longer . . .

    If someone seems to be “drooling over” the treasure chest and gold, etc., then when the
    person gets to their search place and doesn’t find these goodies, they may be a bit
    disappointed, and — at least for a while — stop “drooling”. So maybe any search area for
    this thing may be where THOSE warm waters halt. In other words, dozens of different
    places in the Rockies (where folks have searched) may qualify as places “where warm
    waters halt”. Carry on. Happy Mothers day, everyone.

    The above is all part of my opinion. Yours may diFFer.

    • I noticed you didn’t include rain or clouds above in your list as candidates for “warm waters” so wanted to add those also.

  88. Think outside the box a pine box. If you haven’t got the first clue nailed down
    A coffin or pine box

    • Tim W-

      I’m not sure that works in the context of this response from Forrest. Just an FYI for you to consider.

      “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.”

      • KK,

        The quote from Mr. Fenn has to be taken in context. The inference is that WWWH is a physical place North of Santa Fe. That may or may not be true for the correct solution – in my humble opinion.

      • There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where people have died and have memorial markers. Forrest even references a couple of them in his books.

        • Tim,

          Yes there are many places in the Rocky Mtn North of Santa Fe where there are memorial markers, or pine boxes, coffins. All I am stating is that there are likely just as many of those things in Southern Santa Fe.

          IMO, perhaps Forrest meant that there is something special, different, or unique about his WWWH and why “nearly ALL are N of Santa Fe”.

          And I do agree his statement does need to be taken in context. I am only suggesting that this might be a consideration.

  89. Lebanon Kansas; The geographical center of the 48 contiguous US states!

    Just a FFun FFact. 🙂

  90. McB,

    Thanks McB, a theme song of mine. I like to chase rainbows, that’s why I’m in the chase! 🙂

    Sparrow, We certainly have our days here, but it is beautiful in it’s own way.

  91. KK—–

    I have a few “solves” and in one of them Kansas is involved. Since Kansas is flat lands it would be “no place for the meek” (Joseph Meek, the mountain man).

    • Sparrow- We truly are “flatter than a pancake”. It is a stark difference to see. I have fallen in love with being in the mountains, but after living here my entire life, being anywhere else can feel a little claustrophobic to me at times.

  92. So, I updated my opinion on where warm waters halt and have a video about it (see below).

    I wish I could afford to look in CO too, I love that place.

    This is about as simple as it gets IMO!

    1. Name a canyon?
    2. What is in the canyon?
    3. That thing, IT, in that canyon, where did is start?
    4. How far is it from the start to the canyon?

    Almost no research and just about anyone might say:

    1 = The Grand Canyon
    2 = The Colorado River
    3 = Colorado at La Poudre Pass
    4 = About 700 miles

    Rewrite the second poem stanza…

    “Begin the Colorado River where warm waters halt and take the Colorado River in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk (700 miles).”

    + Where warm waters halt is where cold waters start. A synonym for halt is FREEZE. WWWH could be a headwaters or snow capped mountain where most major rivers begin.
    + La Paudre Pass is 10,200 feet – The top of our search range
    + The Colorado River is down to 5,000 feet by the time it meets the Green River tributary
    + The canyon is not in our search state but he never said all the CLUES need to be, only the TREASURE!

    Our task is to “put in below the HOB” which may not be all the way by the canyon, it could be somewhere between the headwaters and where it leaves Colorado. People talk about keeping it simple, that is as simple as it gets.

    The key to me is “something” (IT) BEGINS WWWH, and IT is very likely a river because they form from MULTIPLE streams and creeks where the waters FREEZE (turn to a solid). When they freeze, the WARMER waters in the canyon down run low downstream.

    So yes, freezing headwaters can cause the warmer waters to HALT downstream which is when they use the Reservoirs for fresh water until the next MELT cycle when the waters at the HEAD of the river are no longer halted!


  93. Dear WWWH,
    As the search season starts to gear up significantly, I just wanted to ask you why you have to be so stubborn? Why do you feel compelled to hide from so many folks that want to meet you? Folks from across the globe have been looking forward to starting their adventure right where you are, but you find it necessary to be elusive and ruin everything!
    Already there have been quite a few searchers that have returned home from nice *vacations* and I feel that it may be your fault. What gives? Don’t you care? Some folks are heading out probably as I write this and I have a feeling that you may be smirking because that’s what you do. Why don’t you try to be a little more friendly and outgoing for a change?
    Just thought I’d give a shout out and let you know that I’m onto you buddy…and I’m coming to see you later on this year ! Don’t think you are going to keep up this behavior and get away with it *forever*. I know you think Mr. Fenn is going cover your butt for 1000 years…I’ve got news for you ! Maybe his recent *stomach* ailment was because of you! Ever think about that? You think you’re so warm don’t you? Why don’t you just *stop* IT?
    Anyways…I hope your friend Mr. Canyon( big shot) never finds out what you have been doing for the last 7.5 years, he has friends you know. Well…you take care WWWH…I’ve got your number. One last thing…where in the heck did you get that weird last name? Halt….sure…you’re gonna be halting all right! You just wait!

    PS, When you write back…could you put your *correct* address this time?

    • Loved it Ken!!! Sure hope he answers you, and gives his correct address. I am pretty sure it is in Wyoming, but what comes before that seems pretty blurry on my note from him Is it his writing or my old eyes? HUMMM??? 🙂 JDA

    • Dear Ken,
      I have continued to halt waters and searchers for years and do not plan on stopping any time soon. If you do happen to find me, like all the rest, you will not know it was me without the chest!

      Haha, right… address.. Nice try and see all of you searchers soon!

      Mr. Halt

  94. My warm water halt concept is heart spring yellowstone. I take the first stanza to refer to the heart, as in “I have gone alone in THERE” etc. and of course this combined with the beginning of next section of poem leads to heart spring. Recently on the Fenn hint of riches site people were asking about a WWWH location somebody posted a picture of, and the picture was of a spring with another picture superimposed, one of hearts, as if the visual pun “heart spring” was being made. But nobody at the hint of riches site made this connection. I saw it while I was on my way to Yellowstone and got nervous, thinking people would be swarming the place soon if they thought WWWH was heart spring. I’m telling everybody this now because I’ve pretty much given up on trying to beat people to the treasure and I’m more concerned on just solving the poem, having fun on an intellectual adventure. I will of course get the treasure if I solve it and if nobody even after my telling them so takes any of my thoughts seriously.

    My home of brown is to park down at daisy. My no place for the meek is iron springs creek (remember that picture Fenn posted of Eric’s with a car with iron springs which twists like a snake?). My end is drawing nigh is sunset lake which is up iron springs creek. My heavy loads and water high is Asta/hillside springs area. And so on…If anyone searches around my area, which of course is our national park, just respect the place please. Don’t litter, scare the animals, tear the place up, etc. Just go in clean and hopefully come out clean with the treasure.

    • Thanks for your post Daniel. It seems well thought out. Sorry you did not find it. Better luck next trip out. – JDA

  95. Hello, all. I’m Andrew, first time posting on this board, but have been reading TTOTC and pouring over Google Earth for a few months now. I’m in NC, so I doubt I will be able to go BOTG unless I really have a “Eureka moment.”

    I have read other people obliquely refer to my idea about WWWH, but I have searched the archives on this topic and don’t think my interpretation is getting adequate consideration. Like Forrest, I am a licensed pilot. Every pilot knows exactly where warm waters halt. It’s one of the first things you study in ground school, because it dictates when and how you can fly. When warm waters are put in motion, their stability or turbulence–that is, their ability to halt–are determined by two factors: 1) the latent energy of the water vapor and 2) the lapse rate of the surrounding air. Stable air exists where adiabatic cooling exceeds the lapse rate. If adiabatic cooling is less than the lapse rate, warm waters accelerate as they rise and form towering cumulus–highly unstable warm waters that never actually halt. Warm waters halt when adiabatic cooling equals the lapse rate, capped by dewpoint. This is commonly known as a stratus cloud.

    So, I have been scouring the maps for anything related to clouds–Cloud Peak in the Bighorns, Stratus Mountain west of Rocky Mountain National Park, Lake of the Clouds in the Beartooth Mountains, etc.. I have several solves, but none that would let me “move with confidence.”

    Best of luck to everyone.

    • Hi, Andrew. Welcome, and thanks for sharing from a pilot’s perspective.

      Make sure to look for the stream and river and creek names, too. You can find whole lists of names online, but sometimes those lists miss some.

    • Hi Andrew! In my very first solve WWWH was at the Upper falls of Yellowstone because a pilot who is flying right above the falls will have the impression of a halt where the waters are falling down or away from him…

      • TLo
        Thanks for your contribution to the searching community— I would have found a seat with you, had it been possible for me.

        Still hope you plan to do Mount Washburn with your son later this summer and look forward to your future adventures … you don’t strike me as a man who can be chained down to a desk for long.

        Ask Dal for my email – I’d love the opportunity to share tales!


    • Andrew,
      Superb work and analysis. A while back I asked people on this thread to share ideas about the phrase WWWH, in the context of an idiom or riddle and yours is my favorite so far — it is deep thinking and
      Forrest has said it doesn’t require “specialized knowledge” but imagination and deep thinking!

      Thanks for sharing your thoughts.
      If you don’t have confidence that’s fine; just keep working it…


      • GCG,
        It might be helpful to review all of the Q&A…

        Is any specialized knowledge required to find the treasure? For instance, something learned during your time in the military, or from a lifetime of fly fishing? Or do you really expect any ordinary average person without your background to be able to correctly interpret the clues in the poem? ~mdavis19
        No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f

        Many concentrate on “special knowledge” Yet fenn has stated the book was enough to help that average person along. IF the stories do allow for thinking… such as fenn’s time in the service, as a pilot for example… Just because most may not be pilots does that exclude thinking and analyzing the view of what he did for 20 years-?- and beyond. If so, we should exclude fishing, archeology, even math… or navigation?

        What caught my attention in the Q&A was “…. and I have no expectations.” Or to believe something woulda shoulda coulda happen. Why would he have any expectations… there is information in the book that is supposed to help with the clues… if we don’t see it as fenn does, that’s our fault not his.

        Should fenn have given us the tool / references to analyze and think about, would that not include piloting?
        I dare say a pilot uses math as well. Should fenn have given us the ‘idea’ that math is involved with the solve… do we dismiss it because it might be over our heads a bit?

        Or are we supposed to learn along the way in this challenge?

        Personally, many like the idea of the KiSS method… well, If that were truly the case, when folks have been on site with deciphered first clues and still didn’t know or understand… KiSS does seem to apply.
        When folks walk by remaining clues and never seen or understood, KiSS didn’t seem to apply.
        When folks were within a 500′ to 200′ location of the chest… KiSS left the building.

        We have the information in the book and fenn’s comment to “try and simplify the clues”………. should the poem / book give up information we may need to “adjust” ourselves to… is that called special knowledge? Or using references / tools supplied?

        An example would be tarry scant.
        Should tarry scant be a clue, there are some options to look at. Some like a dark colored stone. Some say it means get the heck out of there before you get caught…
        WhatIF it means Math? Tarry Point, line of thinking. I mean, we all know and use math on a daily basis… WhatIF fenn is explaining we need to triangulate positions of clue reference to “precisely” / exactly locate a 10″ sq. hidden box, some where in the vast area of the RM’s? IS Santa fe mentioned for that type of reasoning? Did fenn attempt to plant the idea with the comment on surveying?

        I Personally don’t like the idea of clouds mean WWWH… I think that references is a point on a map that is fixed. **However, Andrews thoughts brought it full circle to such a point and was analyzed by using fenn’s stories from the book.

        Just because information may not be common knowledge to all … do we dismiss it altogether, or do we utilize because it is given to all of us as a tool to work from??

        My point is… fenn warned us it would be difficult but not impossible. Gave us the tools we should “analyze” and “think” about. To be perfectly honest… Andrews point/idea gives the thought of [ in part ] “What took me so long,” line of thinking.

        Although, Andrew would need to explain how there are many of this type of WWWH in the RM’s with at least one below SF to be factually correct. That is the part that I don’t see…

        End of commentary………..

        • Seeker,


          And not to offend.

          FF could have written WWWBalk.

          So “very” difficult to understand “what” is WWWHalt.

          Even harder for Americans.

          • Coulda Shoulda Woulda…
            He could have wrote stop. and change NFBTFT Hop.
            Not Far, Walk and/or hop is a movement. The question should be what is moving, and when and where is it moving.
            Halt was needed for a reason. However, Halt has more than one usage / meaning. Which one do we use, or can we use all of them?

            But just for fun, balk basically means a mistake.
            Maybe we are concentrating on walk too much as a physical movement and not so much as a movement of time?

          • Allow me to give and example of thought. McB.
            What takes a canyon down. The line is in present tense for us to begin. Could the line be interpret as past tense or from the past ~ on a geological scale?
            Example; “IT” began to take the canyon down… only poetically it is sated at “begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down”… Not far back in time, but too far to travel back… meaning the landscape was different than today, and will be tomorrow [ in 3009 ].

            Are we to see the first clue as past, present and future? I mean, someone 1000 years from now would need to do just that, right? And did the first two clue solvers neglect to think about that possibility? It is a poem and word usages and meanings can be bent and bend for a full affect.

          • Seeker,

            I consider the word “and” as variable.

            For “me”: Begin … “and” take … walk?


            For “water”: halt “and” take … walk?

            Although, any one of them is correct for my solution.

            But for other researchers, this can be the difference between: right path and wrong path.

            As for the time of the sentence, I consider FF speaking us face by face, in the present time.

          • Ah, “warm water halt” is the action of something I know, and there is in the USA.

            But the meaning Americans consider is what does not let them identify the location.

        • Seeker- “WhatIF fenn is explaining we need to triangulate positions of clue reference to “precisely” / exactly locate a 10″ sq. hidden box”.

          Doesn’t his statement of “can’t imagine a person being within 12′ and not finding it” annul the need for us to be concerned with the other 11′ 2″?
          Yes, I know my math doesn’t add up…but I’m counting on you figuring my drift.

          • I would assume the idea is… if you followed the clues to that point… it would be obvious where the chest is… the idea is to get to that point.
            12′ could be 6′ or 20’… only we need to get to the blaze for that final distance to be known / obvious.

            Could the blaze be that last point in the triangulating theroy? Sure it could. Basically you only need 3 point. For example; WW – HLnWH – The blaze… three lines intersect from three points… to the chest.

            The idea is’ nailing down the first clue. Follow the poem’s clues to the ‘found’ blaze [ having another point within the clues ] and producing the hide. The 12′ comment was a correct that a search stated fenn said… which he never said. So, the idea is that any given feet the triangulation produces the chest is within that distance ~ because of the method to get there.

            All speculation at this point, but it doesn’t annul the method.

          • Seeker,

            “So, the idea is that ‘any given feet’ the triangulation produces the chest is within that distance ~ because of the method to get there”

            Isn’t that kinda fudging the “precisely / exactly” purpose of using a formula to begin with (per your quote I began my previous post with)? The only reason I ask is because of several recent mentions from you about getting it down to a 10″ sq. box. I feel the “12′ comment” suggests that isn’t necessary.

            ‘My bad’ for not quoting exactly, I was going from memory. That… “which he never said” is not the telling part for me, it was his ‘unnecessary’ follow-up to that ‘which he did not say’. I believe it speaks volumes to the precision that Mr. f is willing to lead us. It’s by no means impressive for horseshoes, but should certainly be effective when the grenade blows up!

            To keep with the correct Dal-ilect of this thread: the quote about wwwh/ n. of Santa Fe- I can’t say what Mr.f’ meant by “warm waters”, and as far as the associated possibilities that that might encompass in his mind…Holy cow! But I will say this… one word in that quote eliminated a multitude of them for me.

            Now go live up to your name and get out there, do your “viewing” down the canyon or “tromping out” the clues or whatever it takes instead of twiddling your thumbs waiting for the cows to come home. At least JDA can say THEY were probably waiting for HIM! JK! ; )

        • Seeker,

          I have addressed the topic of “specialized knowledge” previously and essentially IMO, Forrest is meaning “esoteric” knowledge. He has gone much further in other comments to discuss the knowledge necessary to correctly solve the clues in the poem stating:
          “Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds,… …”

          You know the quote.

          He expects us to be resourceful and use the tools available to a person of average intelligence, like; The internet, Google Earth, maps and of course TTOTC.

          But inside his expected tool box is logic, analysis and synthesis – might also add craftiness and creative license…


          • To clarify the previous comment: Forrest quote regards specific knowledge NOT required to figure out the clues to the poem like magnetic variation, formulas, graphs, charts, curved lines etc…

            This is a large hint, it simplifies the bounds of our solutions and makes it accessible to all.

            Egalitarian he is…


          • I’m with Seeker on this one. Specialized knowledge is clear and easy to understand. Everyday people can used specialized knowledge with the help of the internet. Here is how I see it and I could be wrong. If I can figure something out without doing a ton of research but maybe just confirm it online then it probably isn’t specialized knowledge. If I have to go searching for information that I have no prior knowledge of then it is probably specialized knowledge.

    • Welcome aboard the good ship “hoD”,

      Thanx for sharing a bit of insight that most of us ground-bound searchers were not aware of.

      Good luck in your search,

  96. IMO he used halt because a temporary stop of movement associated with the word halt. This doesn’t apply as much with stop and balk.

        • Travis…I have no solid plans for this year. There is no urgency for me. At this point I am content to play the odds…everything is a calculated risk. I’ve been studying ants and their habits…quite interesting actually, and I’ve devised a way to lasso them individually…much safer than buffalo. They don’t seem to be fond of the mud puddle I made and they are not circling as I expected…but I am patient.
          How about you Travis ? Are you heading back out soon?

          • Hey there Ken I like your responses ant to a puddle. Might be an ocean to most it’s just a little pond. An I, and an X, bring it all together which draw the line to a switching. I am headed back soon. Cant say to be exact or maybe I know but not saying.

            “Kettle Corn”

          • Make it out to your spot yet Travis? Did you save me from having to make a hike?

      • water[s] to the same outlet.

        LOL, I’m throwing fortune cookies posts today… ya’ll can fill in the creamy center.

  97. Has anyone ever traced the route from Toilet Bowl, Utah? My solve gets me to the Colorado/New Mexico border. But then I would be dealing with the Antiquities Act of 1906 (something FF would be familar with) and I don’t want think my effort is worth the cold steel bars of a prison cell. Not quite sure I’m brave enough to be in the wood of the newspaper headlines.

  98. I believe WWWH is a warm spring, has to be. He mentioned that no local knowledge is needed and that back history and man-made structures are not associated with any of it. SO the only WWWH that makes sense is a natural spring. The problem is the word halt. Water doesn’t just halt. That has me in a whirl.

  99. Dal –

    New to this, however I’ve pretty much gone through anything and everything that’s ever been said by Fenn himself, your site, YouTube searchers, etc..

    I have a preticular question though.. I’ve seen it be said that Forrest said ‘WWWH’ has nothing to do with a Dam. Is that to say there is NO Dam in the area of ‘WWWH’ or is it to say that a Dam is not the reason for ‘WWWH’ and that there still could indeed be a Dam in the same location?

    -This may be in this blog somewhere, however when it goes off topic I scroll until I see longer comments, eventually ending me here at the bottom. So I apologize if it’s been answered and discussed already.


    • Seth:
      I am not certain what the core of your question is…
      Forrest’s actual quote is here:

      Maybe reading it in context will help you understand it’s meaning.

      He says that WWWH is not related to a dam…
      He does not say anything about a dam not being in the area…
      How big is an area…5ft…a mile…the rest of the county???

      He also does not say anything about the “reason” for WWWH…
      He simply says that WWWH is not “related” to a dam.

      That seemed pretty clear to me at the time. He was telling us not to use a dam as the place where warm waters halt…
      Nothing about dams in the “area” surrounding our WWWH…nor does he give a reason for where warm waters halt…

      Seems to me it was about as clear a statement about a clue as we can get out of Forrest. If your WWWH is a dam…you need to get a new one.

      • Thanks for the link, Dal.

        My WWWH, I came up with without thinking of a Dam. However, the exact location once I invastigated further is a Dam. Obviously it didn’t use to be a Dam & I’d imagine before the Dam was built the location could still have been referenced to WWWH.

        I was just uncertain by the way he said, WWWH doesn’t ‘relate’ to a Dam. Does that mean, a Dam is not associated with the area at all (the exact location) no matter how you came up with your WWWH .. or .. Does it mean, he simply wasn’t referring to WWWH as a Dam, so don’t go searching for Dams, but the exact location could still have a Dam?

        I hope that makes sense, I know it’s confusing.


        • Seth;

          From my perspective – you can talk yourself into anything.

          You want to justify your wwwh location, and that is understandable. BUT – If Forrest says that wwwh is not related to a dam, I would take that to mean in any manner – today, yesterday, or tomorrow. Personal advice – find yourself another wwwh – but that is just me. Why invest a bunch of time, effort, energy and money on a solve that you had to “Justify” from day one? Just does not make sense to me – JDA

          • JDA,

            Indeed Sir,
            That’s howcome I’m trying to determine exactly how he meant it.

            Bc he also states, ‘some of the things were there when he was a kid but some were not’. Which indeed hints forth a man made structure, however he’s also said, it has nothing to do with a man made structure.. mines, graves, etc.. — just a Forrest word play reference — & I’m not necessarily trying to justify my spot .. as I more or less commented to have someone convince me differently. – For what could be the chances I picked the location before researching or ever touching the book? Simply from reading the poem (screen shot off FB, someone shared) and having a map? Probably zero to none.

            Though, I honestly don’t want to think I got it correct, I don’t yet see anything to show me I’m wrong. I know his words could be interpreted to say I’m wrong, but if his words were, ‘WWWH does not relate to a Dam.’ The straight forward point (to me) would be, ‘don’t go type in Dams on google & try following it in a canyon. You see my point?


          • Seth,

            I think I understood your doubt now.

            The dam “no” is your WWWH, but she’s on the way of your solution, is that it?

            If so, then it depends on “where” in the poem the dam is.

            FF said very clearly: “there is no structure associated with the chest.” In other words, the chest will not be hidden in the structure of dam.

            Your question has been discussed here in the past.

            I even commented that a dam could be considered a blaze, because it is something that draws attention.

            But here comes the question: The dam is a structure, so there should be more clues beyond the blaze. And we know that blaze is the last, FF suggests. (I do not agree with blaze being the last, but I do not disagree, I’d rather just follow the poem without counting clues)

            So I think it depends more on “your point of view” than on the normal rules most accepted by most researchers.

            Only my opinion.

          • Seth;

            Here is the exact quote:

            “MAY 2014
            Many searchers have thought that warm waters halt at a dam because water being released through flues near the bottom of the dam is much colder than water on the surface of the lake. I have discussed around that subject with several people in the last few days and am concerned that not all searchers are aware of what has been said. So to level the playing field to give everyone an equal chance I WILL SAY NOW THAT WWWH IS NOT RELATED TO ANY DAM. ff

            To me “any dam” means past, present or future.
            Not a beaver dam, not a hydro-electric dam, not a reservoir dam, not a dam created by a landslide etc. Not related to ANY dam. To me that is about as direct as Forrest could get. A dam should not be a part (in any way) of your solve. The dam may not play a DIRECT role in your solve, but if your wwwh spot has a dam anywhere close – drop it – JMO – JDA

        • Seth,

          In my opinion “if” the dam was built “after” that FF published the poem, nothing prevents it from being a legitimate WWWH.

          FF could not predict that the site would become a dam.

          From what I understood from his post, the dam did not exist before.

          However, if the dam already existed before the poem, is better look for another WWWH.

          What’s your case? Was it “before” or “after”?

          • Well put. However, It was built before the poem.

            My problem is, my spot doesn’t relate to the Dam. It just happens to be there.

            From what FF said, was people have been thinking it was a Dam something about hot water at the top & cold at the bottom blah blah blah .. & to even the playing field he said ‘WWWH does not relate to ANY Dam.’ — Do we take it as cross every Dam in or around the Rocky Mountains out? Or do we take it as, when looking for WWWH don’t think it’s bc hot water & cold waters in a Dam?

          • Seth;

            Anything can be interpreted anyway, to support any particular position. You say that you are not trying to justify your wwwh BUT your words belie this position.

            You say, “Do we take it as cross every Dam in or around the Rocky Mountains out? ” My answer – in a word – is YES JMO – JDA

          • Seth,

            If the your WWWH is below the dam, what’s the problem?

            The WWWH that was discussed here in “hot water at the top & cold at the bottom” referred to standing water “above” the dam itself.

            If it’s down below and it has nothing to do with “the dam,” then it’s legitimate.

            Or if it is above, but “outside” the dam, it is also legitimate.

            FF did not say that “the poem” is not associated with a dam. He just said that “WWWH” is not associated, and that the “chest” is not associated with a structure.

            IMO of course.

          • McB ~’“if” the dam was built “after” that FF published the poem, nothing prevents it from being a legitimate WWWH.’

            Umm yeah, it prevents it from be legit!

            The fact that it wasn’t there when the poem was written means in can’t be associated, related to, part of, any part of the poem… How can you create a clue that was not there to begin with?

            LOL , Jump at you McB, because your comment is not fully finished…
            I see where you are going with it, in thought.
            But the problem is… if something was later built over a clue [ between 2009 and present day ] wouldn’t that have a grave impact on every clue? That a clue or even all the clues could be hidden from site forever and a day.

            When fenn said he was thinking “down the road,” wouldn’t he at least think of the area, as being destroyed by human hands later on-?- making the clue / clues completely useless?

            While nothing is ‘absolute’… fenn feels the clues should be around for a good period of time, only affected by land movement ~ for the most part.
            And should something like that happen… don’t you think fenn would ‘give us a hint’?

          • Sorry, McB. I have to agree with Seeker on this one. Believe the box is in a designated “Wilderness” area, not a NF, NP, BLM, Reservation or private land. Believe that FF needed the legal protections against logging, mining, roads, developments of any kind down the road. Only legally designated “Wilderness” areas carry such assurances.

            Your mileage may vary.


          • Oh my!

            I think you guys have not paid much attention to what kind of person Forrest Fenn is …

            Did you guys not study all the possible meanings of the poem …


            Does any of you know where the chest is and will not us tell? Heinm? ; ) Hehehe

            The Dal must be revolving in his chair at such times “listening” to our nonsense! : )

          • Wouldn’t the dam have to have been built after he made the comment and not after the poem was written?
            I can’t imagine many, if any dams have been built after either case.

        • Seth,
          As JDA said; ‘you can talk yourself into anything.’ Which made me chuckle a little…

          Anyways, I suggest that you browse over other comments fenn has made, again, to help.

          One suggestion for thought would be a Q&A or a few actually, where fenn says; [paraphrasing] if you’re missing and ingredient how do you except to have the correct outcome?

          At first it may not seem to relate to your Inquiry… yet, think about it as; related. If WWH is not a dam, would any of the other “ingredients” be a dam? Because they all are related for a final correct outcome… like baking a cake… each ingredient is separate but together create only one thing… if you add a dam to an egg, or a structure to the butter, it’s not longer an egg or butter, line of thinking.

          We also have a second hand comment that “relates” to hoB and a ‘structure.’
          When fenn stated the treasure is not “associated” with a structure, and later, may have stated/implied hoB is not as well… could you logically assume all the clues are not related / associated a structure or possibly a dam? even if there are structure near by…
          I mean, if ‘we’ add a structure to our solve are we not changing the possible intended outcome?
          The ‘thoughts’ I’m presenting is… if fenn eliminated something as not associated with or related to… could it be all of the “solve” because the solve IS what the treasure relates to, and visa versa.

          I’ll take it a step further in ‘thought’… would it be wise to make Nevada, or Idaho, or Canada as part of a full solve… the chest isn’t in one of those state, so the chest ‘may not’ be related or associated with them. I think is safe to say ‘Toledo’ might be out of the running. But Kansas may have a fair chance… fingers crossed.

          My last suggestion is don’t read what other say and take it as fact… read fenn’s comment to help answer your concerns. So… in this case… disregard everything you just read in my post, and rehash fenn’s comments.

          This post will self-destruct in 5, 4, 3, 2 …poof!

          • Seeker;

            YUP – I have talked myself into believing some pretty ridiculous things, which at the time (at least to me) made a lot of sense. HEHE 🙂 – JDA

          • Those are some great replies and answer my concern perfectly!

            The Dam has nothing to do with anything in the poem IMO of the solve. It just happens to be at the starting point, WWWH. – when I follow it further everything else can line up perfectly with everything FF has said, along with the poem.. (as everyone’s does ;)) & what’s weird, though the names are slightly different & the location is obviously different, he tells a story in TTOTC, that lines up all to perfectly with it as well!

            Hope I’m on to something, plan to be BOTG for the first time by the end of July!

          • An additional one that is often side-stepped…
            Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did you mean all 9 nine clues where the treasure sits? Thanks d
            “Yes d, it means the treasure for is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information. f ”
            Another example of a poorly worded question…but still somewhat informative. And for sure…do not take anything said here serious !

          • as per Fenn’s comment, obviously the treasure and chest are not the same thing.

            I think.

      • To all here, think a little, please:

        If (hypothetically) a flood or a tornado destroys the site related to HL and WH, and turns the place into a plain, the place will no longer be HL and WH?

        If a landslide to dammed an area of ​​”Madison Junction,” it would it cease to be a legitimate WWWH?

        Or even if the WWWH of the researcher is in a recently dammed area, for whatever reason, his WWWH would not be legitimate?

        If people passed so close to the chest, who can guarantee that there is no exist a public toilet on top of the blaze?

        FF will not leave a message saying, “Look guys, they built a bathroom over the blaze!” or “Guys, the place HL and WH does not exist anymore!” or “Attention serchers, there was a landslide that covered the WWWH!”

        Another detail, why do you think FF would give a message so compromising if something like that happened? FF already gave this message to us!


        How can you say that this is the right place?

        It seems that only a few have the “complete” version of the poem:

        FF made it very clear in the “first” stanza: “and hint … new and old.”

        So “YES”, the poem can lead us to places that may be very different from when FF hid the TC, “YES”!

        I think the researcher who discovers the treasure 500 years from now will not be able to count on little FF helps.

        Above is not “opinion” is a matter of “what if” and “logic.”

        And since everyone here likes to say, “but FF says …”, I say: FF also used these words: “what if” and “logic”.

        My solution has no confirmation bias or ATF to support. So I’m not defending my opinions.

        I am saying this because I see many buckets of cold water being thrown over ideas and opinions that sound a bit different from what some veterans have.

        A phrase from FF, which led me to my solution, has no clue or hint.

        Is this:

        “Complacency is the misuse of imagination” (Posted Dec. 18th, 2015)


        For those who do not know:

        Complacency is letting yourself be influenced by other people’s ideas. That is, not having their own ideas.

        IMO 😉

        • Oh, just to my post above does not seem stupidity, or innocece my:

          I am an outlaw, a maverick, a rebel who questions “everything” and has even questioned even the “Priest in the Church”. But my focus ever is “think and analyze”.

          I’m well paid to think. My focus is always on the tool I use and not on the result. If the tool is right, the final result, obviously, will also be right.

          Sincerely, and from the bottom of my heart, forgive me if I have offended anyone.

          I just want everyone to feel free to express their ideas.

  100. Seth, I think this is not as hard as it is being made out to be. If your WWWH is something other than the dam, like a river feeding into the lake that happens to have a dam then you are probably safe. If the WWWH has anything whatsoever to do with the dam then get rid of it.

  101. Still sounds a little sketchy Seth but good luck to you. BOTG is always an adventure!

  102. Thanks JDA

    If my search doesn’t produce any yields I’ll take your word for it and damn the damn Dams! 😉

  103. “Google “structure” for more information. f ”. Thank you for that post Ken.

    I’ve posted this definition before if memory serves.

    Per Google – “struc·ture
    the arrangement of and relations between the parts or elements of SOMETHING COMPLEX.”

    So then question becomes, what is “complex”? Is it measured by the level of effort required to make it? The number of parts? Precision? A combination thereof?

    Is a nail or rivet complex? What about the concrete stoop at his house in Texas? How about gunpowder? After all, it’s only made from ground carbon (charcoal), sulfur, and potassium nitrate in easily measurable amounts. Or a metal drainage culvert going under the street? Back in the day they made piping out of sheet steel and rivets, pretty simple materials.

    I’m not arguing one way or the other. I’m simply trying to point out folks might be overlooking, or worse yet, completely discounting, something he said that is very important IMO.


    • Nor is structure necessarily solid material… ie, … the structure of an argument, a story, a poem, a plan, a puzzle, etc. Square one is Yuge.

      • OS2…that was part of my point….a poor choice of explicit words in the original question. On the surface and in the spirit of the Chase…I believe Fenn was answering as honest as possible to the Q as posed.
        Coupled with other comments along the way and including the HOB debacle with Cynthia’s shared communication…I would lean towards NO structures(manmade) involved with the treasure search, period.
        In the end…the correct solve will be the answer.

      • Ken: concur. Per Cynthia’s shared information, no structures associated with any of the clues. Using a structure for one of his clues would be like Forrest restricting himself to human trails. No adventure in that.

        • I agree that HoB is not associated with a structure, which I’ve known for over a year. But some other clue locations are.

        • Weeeell,

          In this case FF must have gone from Helicopter or boat to the tracks, because a road is something made by humans.

          Or yet: All clues are at “scant miles” divided by 4, from the chest. +/- 600 yards.(?)

          Or else: FF tied the chest and threw away from plane into some crack in mountains.

          STILL !: He used Interprise teleportation to the chest.

          People! Less hardcore with the poem!

          This way, the chest will only be found by ET’s in the year 1.936.786.765.896, when some rock of planet earth to crack the windshield of some starship, com o chest stuck in it.

          • McB,
            Your hypothetical has the first clue at fenn’s home idea.
            Of course the man needed to travel to the location… be it by paved road or crossing his neighbor’s lawn… It all starts with the clues.

            If it doesn’t, I’m screwed, because I need a bridge to get across the Mississippi while driving to my search location.
            Not hardcore… common sense. We still has that in the US… I think… as long as I don’t watch the news, anyways.

          • Seeker,

            This is a CHASE, not is a fairy tale, where “everything” is right, cute, and ends happily.

            Do not forget “who” elaborated this.

            A Maverick! Who does not like rules!

            This facility I have (I’m Brazilian), of seeing both sides of a person at the same time. I have malice.

            It was just me reading some FF story to know that this Chase was not for the weak.

            Do not keep looking for places with hot / cold water. That’s what FF wanted everyone to think.

            Just because FF said that the chest is not associated with a structure, does not mean that it can not be on the “side” of a structure.

            Not what I think, but WWWH could quietly be downstream from a dam. From the moment the water “is outside” of dam it is not part of the dam. Similarly upstream. It “still” is not part of the dam.

            Can anyone give an answer against my argument? Just if have the chest in your hand!

            If FF had explicitly stated that not even one of the clues is associated with a human structure, I would agree with that thesis.

            Malice is a “gift” given to few, and FF has plenty, even if unconsciously.

            While everyone looks exactly what is written in the poem, and they do not learn to read between the lines of what FF says, the chest will not be found.

            Researchers look like those party balloons that all go to the same side when the wind blows.

            Forrest Fenn is not like these balloons. FF is like the wind. Pay close attention.

            Please do not think that I think ill of FF or our friends here.

            On the contrary. I am only giving warnings and advice for good.

            : )

          • Ah, Seeker,

            As for “good sense in the US”.

            I am of the opinion that “good sense” depends on the point of view.

            Does the lion’s “good sense” prevent him from attacking the deer?

            But the “good sense” of the deer prevents him from standing in the sight of the lion!

            The that “thinks” to be stronger always thinks that what counts is “HIS good sense” and not of others.

            Beware of nationalistic expressions. Our leaders have this craze, and this has provoked more problems than solutions throughout the “whole history” of mankind.

            To think that we are better than others has provoked genocides, holocausts, and all the miseries of humanity.

            To think that our reasons are more valid than that of others “never” has resulted in something good. Only tragedies.

            If Hitler was not think that be a pure race, better than other nations …

            If the Muslims did not thinks that their faith better than other people …

            If the ones of the north were not more important than those of the south …

            If the immigrants did not think that they were better than the Indians …

            If each person respected the individuality of the other person …

            If people cared about their affairs and did not think they were better than others …

            What a good world we would have! : ) Is not true?

  104. If you are serious about finding where to begin, this is probably one of the most important videos to see. I think that a lot of people overlook one important thing, and it might be why they walk past the final 7 clues. So I made a video for it that is short and sweet…


    • While you explain the punctuation well. You add the word WE. as meaning a searcher takes it in the canyon down… depending upon where their hoB is for each searchers deciphering of clues.

      Again the punctuation idea is good and correct. Yet we don’t know what ‘take it in’ means… whether a physical movement, or an observation… regardless of the punctuation, WE is not a fact, it’s an assumption of interpretation.

      But here’s a little fun fact:
      Q~ Who else knows where the treasure is buried?
      A~ I never said it was buried. I’ve avoided that word. I hid it. I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t buried. I just didn’t want to give that as a clue. It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. **And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again.** As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know.

      So IF fenn is saying “he’s” is not going to make a trip into a canyon- at age almost eight – Why would “WE”? regardless of a common or not.
      There is also a comment related directly about ‘commas’ and ‘misspellings’… I’m just to lazy to look it up. But if anyone is seriously considering any thought/thoughts… a check and balance to that thought[s] should also apply, before adding something that may or may not be there, in theory.

      Oh right! searchers didn’t quit… “they left the poem.” I wonder where they went?

      • Yep, if the HOB is in the canyon that would be a reason to go there. I can’t attempt to prove that because he could be saying that the area described by the stanza is “put in” (think installed) below the HOB. Or he wants us to go to the HOB. Or heck, maybe “IT” puts in.


        My favorite example of how a comma can change the meaning is:

        Lets go eat Debbie!
        Lets go eat, Debbie!

        HUGE difference there… In the first case we are going to cannibalize Debbie, in the second we are telling her we should do eat 🙂

        Lets drive where the bus will stop and take people into the city!
        Lets drive where the bus will stop, and take people into the city!

        HUGE difference! In the first case we are simply driving to the bus stop. In the second case we are not only driving to the bus stop, but WE are taking people into the city

        • The huge difference is the lack of “and” in you first example.
          In the second example you have transportation included.
          Neither of which can truly relate to how the poem can be read.
          “Begin it” is not a movement [ as of yet ] it’s a stationary idea. “Where” is a location. “wwh” is how we know the location. There is no idea of “lets” do anything at this point, nor that WE move.

          “And take it in” doesn’t provide any true information of movement… it can be , but it doesn’t have to be.
          “the canyon down” doesn’t add to any movement needed [ yet ], it is directional in nature [such as ‘city’ in your example]… but this is a poem and it needs correct interpretation, not a guess.

          Even when the reader get to “Put in below” anything… “put in” can act in the same manner as “take it in” as a none movement of ‘viewing’… the only thing that might be moving is our eyes.
          So, what could “Not far” “but to far to walk” mean? Well there is a comma for a pause. “Not far” is still not a movement, But too far to walk, because we don’t have a distance ‘stated’ and the idea of too far to walk seems to say [ by interpretation of the above idea ] don’t walk and/or don’t go.

          The only time there is a suggestion of a true movement is “From there” wherever you would like that to be “from.” I say WWWH. It’s no place for the meek, the ‘end’ is ever ‘drawing’ nigh.
          Drawing is as close to an actual movement as we can get, up this point… Yet, does it mean “we” are to move-?- or whatever is drawing from the end? In this case the logical assumption might be water. Drwaing as in pulled by gravity from it source.

          There is really nothing in the poem that actually says “WE” need to move…. there’s no bus, no lets drive, and nothing saying “we” need to ‘go’ in the canyon … only the words “take it in” which is subjective by our opinion and feelings of what ‘we think we need to do.’

          Take it in ~ take something in, meanings;
          to comprehend, to understand, follow by understanding, to absorb…
          It’s still straightforward, in plain English, but changes the entire reading manner of what ‘might’ be intended, rather than what “WE” hope it should be.

          I gave a few examples of AFT’s that seem to line up this idea… regardless of a common or not… Do you have anything to back up the idea “WE’ must move into the canyon?
          Because in my example of interpretation, I’m just “looking” for HLnWL.

          Yet, just for fun, and to add to the thought process; Marry the clues to “A Place” on a map. So are we to stomp clue to clue, point to point over any size area? or do we need to plan and observe a bit more at where IT begins? A place on a map.

          I’m not downing your explanation of the comma usage, I’m saying you can’t simply add what ‘WE’ should do for “take it in” by a single meaning and not explore the other meaning of the phrase, forcing something when there is no indication of movement. Especially to an area and 80yr old with a heavy backpack needed to travel twice.

          LOL either I’m bonkers or the ATF’s are gold to have. [metaphorically speaking].

          • I for one am sick of this ridiculous “take it in” as meaning something like “absorb what is before you.” You have extracted three words out of a sentence and introduced a pause or a colon that simply isn’t there, neither in print nor in Forrest’s recitation of the poem. There is no sensible English reading of the poem that allows for this interpretation.

            Begin it where warm waters halt
            And take it in the canyon down,
            Not far, but too far to walk.

            End of sentence.


            Independent clause: “Begin it where warm waters halt”

            Conjunction: “And”

            Independent clause: “take it in the canyon down,”

            Modifying clause acting as an adverb:

            “Not far, but too far to walk.”

            It’s that simple. Your alternative can’t even be grammatically diagrammed:

            “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in”

            So far so good…

            “the canyon down, Not far, but too far to walk.”

            SUBJECT WITH NO VERB! INCOMPLETE SENTENCE! This is straightforward English with no intent to deceive? It’s not even Pigeon English! You will need a crapload of extra punctuation to even make this grammatically acceptable. I find it baffling that you have no issue with this.

          • Zap,
            I gotta tell you. I’ve been in this search since 2012 and you are likely the most dangerous searcher out there.
            There’s only a half dozen searchers that
            worry me and you’re on top of the list.
            By worry I mean , might beat me to the TC


          • Zap ~”There is no sensible English reading of the poem that allows for this interpretation.”

            If you didn’t like my example that ok…
            But the information given to us… is in a poem.

            A poem is not bound by all the crap ya’ll are throwing up.
            LOL.. one minute ya’ll bark about Hartford literary correctness, and the next minute you’re tearing apart words for a letter or two to makeup a solve.

            Do you recall the conversation when fenn talked about how he didn’t like being told how to use commas?
            fenn chose to present the clues by way of a poem… imo… it was for the fact… a poem doesn’t require to pass all those rulings you posted… poem’s are meant for interpretation. Heck, a poem can be one long run-on sentence if the author chooses it to be. And what the heck is a capital letter doing on every line in the poem if you’re being so literary perfect???

            The only thing you can argue is my interpretation of word usages… yet, I gave the definitions / usages for that. NOT my definitions… the Scholar’s definitions… the same folks who brought you the rules and policies of punctuation you’re using for your argument.

            I think it so hypocritical you are yacking about punctuation correctness, when you have barked about looking up words meanings and definitions .. even though fenn stated that is what he did when he wrote the poem.
            Geezzus.. you’re a hoot!

          • Hehe, you are free to disagree all you want, but you are 100% wrong 🙂 This isn’t an opinion, it is a fact.

            Oh and while I am on the topic…

            If the line after it starts with a capital it does NOT change the fact. Look at line 3 in the poem, it ends with a comma and line 4 begins with “And”. Making the first letter capital in poetry is the standard even if its in the middle of a sentence. In NO WAY does it change the meaning of the poem.

            I suggest you guys learn how punctuation works, how conjunctions work, and how sentences are formed.

            Fact: the warm waters “halt and take”

            That is not an opinion.


          • Zap… “the canyon down” is the direct object of the verb.

            Please consult with a grammar expert, I have. I assure you that “halt and take” apply to the warm waters. You can scream and cry all day long, but it doesn’t change the fact.

            Frankly it is getting real annoying with all the misinformation that has been out here for years. Stop misleading people already. This is NOT an opinion, it is a fact.

          • Seeker, you are right. I guess some searchers (not you) have failed for years because punctuation baffles them.

            Here we have a poem written in English. I have no idea why some searchers feel they need to change the meaning of the poem by adding punctuation that doesn’t exist. That is the first step to being sure a solve will fail.

            I guess it means the competition is thin.. heh

          • WY;

            You are correct in your understanding of the English language. That does NOT mean that you are correct in how Forrest meant the poem to be read and/or interpreted. Forrest had said in MANY ways that he cares little about sentence structure, commas, punctuation spelling etc. English MAY be your forte – It is NOT Forrest’s so please, allow us poor “Less educated than you” interpret the poem as we see fit, and please desist from saying that we are WRONG. We may not be correct in how we interpret the English language, but that does not make us WRONG!!! JMO – JDA

          • JDA – There is only ONE way to read it! We read it EXACTLY how Forrest wrote it 🙂

            Forrest did NOT put a comma there, but reading it as if there is one, you would be changing the poem.

            Remember: I am NOT adding or removing anything, I am interpreting it EXACTLY how Forrest wrote it. How on Earth can that be wrong?

            How can someone expect to locate a chest using a poem written in English if they do not read it properly?

          • Wy,

            I warned you about criticism and skepticism on the part of searchers.

            I’m going to talk about one more type of searcher: the stubborn, hardheaded.

            It has a saying that says:

            “You can put a stubborn in the crusher and grind it to powder. But stubbornness does not will come out of his.”

            The searcher who be “adjust” best, will come out ahead.

          • WY;

            What you state is YOUR OPINION – NOT a FACT!.

            You do NOT know how Forrest meant the poem to be read – and THAT is a FACT.

            You KNOW how it was written. You KNOW what all of the rules are that relate to English language usage – You do NOT know – as a fact – how Forrest meant the poem to be interpreted. And, (Yes I know, I am not supposed to start a sentence with “and”) I for one, would appreciate it if you would stop implying that we who interpret the poem differently than you are wrong. You do NOT know this to be a fact – you are not holding Indulgence. Thank you very much – JDA

          • On the subject of grammar in poem

            Poets may or not take license with their use of punctuation word tense and meaning twisting (and even spelling/word invention/bending) however good poets do this sparingly, carefully and precisely.

            The only place to start when beginning to interpret the poem’s meaning and clues is at first taking it at face value and “assuming” that Forrest has intended to comply with the accepted rules of grammar.

            AFTER doing this and only after doing this should you explore the many potential rabbit holes of mistakes, intended alterations and/or creative license.

            Further when you begin down this path, there needs to be strong reason to do it or you should be able to defend doing it with a strong reason/argument…

            WhyMustIgo has done the “Search Community” a huge service posting the poem’s diagramming, online for all to see…

            Forrest has worked very hard to provide a product in the poem which will stand the test of time and even though Forrest is more than willing to play with words and grammar; he has also went to great lengths to go over and over the poem, “examining it from every angle.”

            He has written with no Red Herrings or False leads (no deception) – I’ll assert here that everything is ‘extremely’ intentional and to read something into the poem the terms of potential punctuation — “its risky to do so?”

            “Don’t mess with my poem.”


          • Wy, ~’Seeker, you are right. I guess some searchers (not you) have failed for years because punctuation baffles them.’

            Even though I like to see “Seeker, you are right” I’m not egotesticle to always believe it.
            I know a little something about commas. When I say a little, I mean just that.
            I have talked with English professors at a local TN college, book editors, professional proof readers [ from law offices ], used a Microsoft editing program… [not about the chase, but my own book]… None of the above can always agree on all comma usages. NONE.
            I mean, just look at this conversation…

            The only suggestion I got that made sense to me was from a ‘ghost writer’… Don’t worry about the comma. If you don’t like it, change the sentence up.
            ONLY we don’t have that luxury with fenn’s poem. He wanted the poem to be read the way he wanted… If he wanted us to pause, he made us do it, if not… well, don’t pause.
            But a pause doesn’t change intent. imo.

            LOL… nope, I’m not right, but I’m not wrong either. What I do know is… I really dislike that little bent beggar of a with a passion, nor it me, it seems to be giving me a sarcastic grin every time I use it.

            IF you want IT to mean drive… the read the stanzas as; Begin driving where warm waters halt and drive in the canyon down…
            Or IF we attempt to use the suggestion fenn has given us… observe… then you might read the stanza as; Begin observing where warm waters halt and observe the canyon down… Not far, But too far to walk.. so, don’t walk down it.

            Ha! That wasn’t even a commentary… it’s an observation.

          • Wy: you are fixated on punctuation in the poem, and that is certainly your right. But as JDA pointed out, you know nothing of Forrest’s intent regarding punctuation and grammar. You (and we) can only guess at it. I obviously lean toward the punctuation being irrelevant, and you are at the opposite extreme. As such, it’s hardly surprising that we are focused on different states.

            I will part on this subject with a purported Forrest quote that I’ve posted before. It’s second-hand, so you can choose to ignore it, but I accept it as genuine:

            “I have always said the poem will lead you to the treasure if you have the right map and know where to start. It is straight forward so there is no need to over-think it or look for commas and misspellings as clues. It was not written with the idea of fooling anyone. F”

            This “straight forward” reading of the poem applies to your “take it in” alternative, Seeker. The furthest I will concede your point is that it could be a double or even triple entendre — not a *replacement* for the traditional reading. So it might be a wink to enjoy the view, or even an instruction to your seamstress.

          • To all aspiring Professors of the English language…and the wanton Literature Professors too…GOOD LUCK !
            It seems that the lack of a successful solve has inspired many to become “Experts” in other endeavors that do not include deciphering the nine clues in Fenn’s poem.
            One may ask why Fenn chose a poem as the vehicle to convey the heart of the Chase? There will be no common consensus…because Fenn ain’t telling us nothin’ that will “lead” you to the treasure in any way, shape or form.
            I believe it may be smart to “listen” to Fenn “read” the poem…over and over…sounds different, and saves me at least…the time to do it myself. When doing so, notice how he ” Creeleyizes” the reading. For those who are not familiar…he “pauses” at the end of each line. He himself worries not about the punctuation in this case. That is not to say that it is a FACT that punctuation does, or does not play any role. Like I said…good luck to all aspiring experts…and please excuse us nitwits.

          • Seeker,

            Your observation:

            “Or IF we attempt to use the suggestion fenn has given us… observe… then you might read the stanza as; Begin observing where warm waters halt and observe the canyon down… Not far, But too far to walk.. so, don’t walk down it.”

            This reading also works, in my opinion!

            For so much better than one of my ways of reading!

            : )

          • Oh, to clarify, I’m talking about “it” = observe.

            I’m not talking about punctuation.

            I continue to be adept at grammar.

            And I will give a statistical data:

            It seems that “all” the majority reads the poem in the same way at 8 years.

            This is how the majority “experient” here read o poema:

            “Begin it where warm waters halt, (wrong comma 1) <clue 1
            And take it in the canyon down. "(wrong point) <clue 2

            "Not far, but too far to walk, (wrong comma 2) <clue 3 maybe?*
            Put in below the home of Brown. "<Clue 3 or 4*

            *FF said 3 or 4 clues in the first stanza.


            It is not MUCH coincidence that "ALL", that did find clues 1 and 2,

            without exception, "STOPPED" where they did not need (wrong point) <clue 2

            and then "PASSED" right where they should have "STOPPED" (wrong comma 2),

            leaving the other clues left behind? <clues 3 or 4

            And searchers, it is no use try to argue because, as the JDA says, this is a "fact" attested by the FF itself. = The searchers going, and the "7" clues are left behind.

            I then ask: The punctuation of the poem, CAN or SHOULD be altered or ignored?

            For those who like FF's speech or ATFs, which one did not you read?:

            "Don’t try to change my poem to fit your ideas."

            "You will ignore the poem at your own peril."

            Putting a comma and changing the place point, is not it fiddling with the FF poem?

            And when he talks about looking for clues in commas or mistakes, he's talking about the commas and mistakes that "ARE IN THE POEM", not those you invent and put there or those you change places.

            Almost everyone, except some, reads the poem in the way I wrote above.

            I do not understand "what" is the difficulty of some searchers … it's so simple!

            I told I would not talk about it any more. Now I will not ANYWAY.

            After all, why would I want to send my customers to my competitors?

          • Kanafire/Hot-Blooded-Man/Hawaiian Pele: thank you for your vote of confidence. Maybe I should have you talk to my wife. 😉

    • Wy,

      This video reminded me of a question I asked to you a few days ago.

      That’s when I asked if the two “it”, in the second stanza, could refer to something said in the next sentence. In this case, HoB.

      And you worked well on it!

      Congratulations Wy! To think and plan, as FF said!

          • You know, the more I think about that, it must be the same. He is using the same pronoun multiple times in the same sentence, he cannot change the meaning of the pronoun in the middle without first having defined it.

            So yeah, “Begin (IT) where warm waters halt and take (IT)”
            BOTH pronouns (IT) _MUST_ refer to the same thing otherwise it would not make any sense.

          • Wy,

            I use the poem this way:

            I turned him into phrases. I did not change words. I only read it directly, without the vocal pauses of a poem.

            It us provides much more information.

            As for the commas and points, if FF wanted the phrase to change from the noun that administers the verbs, he would have put a comma.

            “… halt, and (you) take …”

            I always read it like this: “waters” “… halt and take …”

            I’ve always been surprised at the idea of “I” begin…and take it …

            Even “I”, that do not speak English, I understood that phrase!

            In my opinion, the “waters” take “it” in the canyon, not me.

  105. hello MCB I liked the video – I also agree that – it – is a river, the t is the road that takes you to the reservoir where you hit a dead end and the road from there goes north – the I is the river that also ends on the reservoir- that runs to the bottom of – it – where wwh – the period of the i is the eye of hob- so you go in the way of it and take – it – in the canyon down – this is just an opinion—– frank

  106. Mr Fenn, Buried the TC in 2002 NOT 2010…………….Your welcome 🙂

    P.s 2002 = 20.02llbs Troy gold.

    • At age almost eighty, it was time to act…
      Don’t go where an eighty yr old man can’t…
      In 2002 fenn was 71 or 72…
      The book came out in 2010 so he didn’t hide it after or in that year.
      2009 is the most likely answer to the year, just before his 80th birthday in the Summer months of June, July or August. I personally like June.

      How do you get 2002 from any of fenn’s comments?

      Your welcome.