Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Forty Five


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605 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Forty Five

    I’ve been in Pinedale, Wy. (fishing & geology) , at only about 7k
    ft., on the 4th of July, and have it
    start snowing as the town’s small
    fireworks display was ongoing.

  2. Seeker,

    Regarding the desert comment, keep in mind a few things:

    1) I did not tell everyone here the complete solve, that same solve actually starts 242 miles (exactly) away from where my WWWH was, which at the time was Madison Junction.

    2) In Wyoming you are standing near Atlantic City (not part of my solve) on the road that leads towards Rock Springs. You are standing where “The Loop Rd'” heads towards Loius Lake. Am I in the desert or mountains? In WY you can move 1000 feet at be out of the woods and in the badlands. When I look like a map, Taos NM doesn’t appear to be in the mountains either.

    3) At the time of this solve, FF never said anything about the desert to anyone that I know of. In fact, he even commented that he would rather die in a desert than a hospital.

    4) At my spot the mountains were clearly visible and were part of the solve (the WWWH is 242 miles away). There are plenty of animals there, in fact there has even been BEARS on the road leading out to Castle Gardens.

    I did not want to get into the whole solve, it was my 3rd attempt since 2014 but it was BY FAR an extremely good solve. It was SO GOOD that someone (who will remain nameless) who has been searching primarily NM since 2011 took it upon themselves, at their expense even, to go check my spot because I could not go due to doctor orders/health issues. This is the only reason why I was determined to get a response from FF, not a confirmation, just an answer to “was the chest ever at THIS exact spot” (I included video footage, coordinates, and images with details). I wasn’t just fishing for a confirmation from him to save time, the time was already spent. So we went back and forth via email for maybe 3 days (he only replied 3 times and never answered any questions of mine). Then not even 20 hours after discussing me being in the desert, the desert comment came out. I do not think it was a coincidence at all, I think FF was actually annoyed with me challenging him.

    NOTE: I have emailed FF many times over the years. I have gotten a few responses, but NEVER any answers to any of my solves (he knows all my solves since 2015, not sure if he read them all). He does not give hints or reply to solutions, I knew that and didn’t expect it, but I *did* want to know if it was ever at that spot after having proved to him I was physically there (we made 3 trips there late may – early June). Like I said, he never answered it, but he did say “Look around [my real name], are you in the mountains.” and later “No [my name] you are in the desert”.

    Perhaps his comment to me was two fold:

    1) Shut me up
    2) Make sure that ALL searchers knew what I now knew

    Basically the field is level, I have no advantage. I am just letting the world know exactly where I was when the comment was made. That whole area of plains is a pretty common place to look when people read the story about Skippy leaving FF halfway between shoshone and casper. So save time, not only is it NOT in the Red Desert, it is not in the arid plaines/high desert.

      • could you not get in a car in California and drive to NY knowing before you left (all things being equal and barring natural disasters etc) you would get there?
        Apply that same confidence with what Seeker said.

        • I can’t go with that concept! You have a gps that tells you your destination! He keeps saying that people have found the first 2 clues but went right past the next! He uses the same type of words in TTOTC book! He walked a mile to school and it lead him past something! I think he’s telling us the clues aren’t very far away from each other!

    • BTW Vikes, here was the theory

      Within Yellowstone park I287 is interrupted. 287 stretches from Texas to Montana, and the only place it breaks is in Yellowstone Park. When standing at Madison Junction I was taking it in the canyon down… Instead of following the Madison into its canyon west, I went south along the Firehole and straight out the exit of YNP. My goal was to follow IT (I 287 down or south). At the town of Moran, to follow 287 you need to go left over the divide and down towards Dubois/Riverton/Lander… So no instructions needed yet.

      After you pass Dubois there is an area called Mexican Flats (I think, I dont have the map right now) but it was reclaimed mining area right north of where 287/26 junction is. To put in below this point (my hoB was the Mexican Flats), I need to break off 287 and follow 26 into Riverton. Another junction here, left or right? I went right into No Place for the meel (The reservation) because left would take me to Shoshone/Casper which is out of the reservation.

      Next we have the end is ever drawing nigh, to me this meant that I was to keep left (after my right hand turn) and follow “Gas Hill Road”. After you exit the reservation on Gas Hill Road you will cross a BUNCH of “Draws”, so this also made sense with “ever drawing nigh”. This road is paved, and it ends in the Lucky MC mine at “Dry Creek Road” (no paddle up your creek), just heavy loads and water high (you are right smack near the tailings ponds (water high with heavy loads).

      This was the point at which you exit the car and do the rest by foot. Looking at the odometer which was 0 at Madison Junction, it is now exactly 242 miles (not 4, but 2-4-2 walk).

      If you were paying attention on the way to this spot, if you looked over to the left you would see the ONLY thing that really stands out, and that was “Sarcophagus Butte”. Once you arrive at the junction of Gas Hill Rd and Dry Creek, you cannot see the buttte (which is NW of you about 1/2 a mile) because you are below a burm/ridge, if you walk up towards the old mine processing factory, along Dry Creek Rd, you will clearly see it to the west.

      Now read stanza one, doesn’t “Sarcophagus” sound like something that:
      * You can go alone in there
      * It is designed and decorated with treasures bold
      * It keeps its secret within
      * It hints of riches new and old

      You can go to that Butte, it is on a small swath of reclaimed BLM land NOT owned by the mine or anyone (but it is surrounded by owned land), this will probably never change because the land was RECLAIMED and cleaned in the 1980s. It was the LARGEST uranium mine in Wyoming and probably the USA, second largest in Colorado. When standing at the base of the butte, you will see nothing of interest. BUT if you are brave enough to climb it (it isn’t hard, but you need to be careful going up the rocks) and look down towards Castle Gardens (down meaning along the Butte’s northern wall) you will see the tiny cave (really a nook, no more than 10 feet deep into the wall). It was carved by hand, I have video and pictures of it and what we found inside. It was very VERY cool… who knows, maybe even Butch Cassidy held up in there, nobody would see you in plain sight from the ground, the entrence is secluded behind huge carved bolders (probably carved by the same people who carved at Castle Gardens). To your west is clay/mud city.

      Trust me, the poem fit to a tee! And 242 was the kicker for me.

      Now, after that I went through the scrapbooks and MANY of them match that general area, which is the primary grouse mating area. The indians hunt them there for the feathers. There is also gypsum. Remember the scrapbook with the “Gas Bill”? If you align the BILL in the photo along Gas Hill Road, Lincolns head will be pointing towards the Lost Cabin in WY. Hmm… The right edge of the bill will be along Dry Creek Rd, and the bent corner (which looks like a rainbow) will be RIGHT OVER the Sarcophagus Butte! Now, remember how FF drove to town and was towed to Walmart? The only nearby Walmart is in Riverton.

      Know how the old biddies lived in the brick house and he didn’t? The metaphor was the old biddies lived in Castle Gardens and the Fenn’s lived in Mud city south of it (across the street).

      Remember the whiskey flask? Doesn’t the marking on the bottle look like “MAC”? Notice the Shamrocks on the flask scrolled in near MAC? Does that mean “Lucky MAC”?

      The Binoculars… Read the story of how the wife and guy discovered the Lucky MAC mine! In fact, you will find a picture of him and his wife with binoculars. Know where those binoculars were made? Well ask any archaeologist in the area where they buy their binoculars and other gear, the most famous company that makes them is in… Riverton!

      Want more? In the scrapbook I previously talked about, look at the telephone chord and the center row going up and down on the phone. Staying in that row one could easily type out the areas zipcode of Gas Hill WY.

      Remember the cross scrapbook? Look at the top of the back of the cross and think “Riverton”.

      I could go on and on making things fit, but the cool thing was the poem fit perfectly! The poem told me I was going to drive 242 miles by the time I went through the clues and had to go by foot, and it did. Now in Wyoming like most places, there are not many roads through the mountains, there are not shortcuts. Pretty much I followed all paved major roads leading in. When the pavement ends, you will have driven 242 miles. Coincidence?

      Its pointless to discuss it really because FF told me I was in the desert, 20 hours later he told everyone “If your solve is in a desert, get a new solve”. So he never answered my question of “was the chest EVER at this exact spot?”, he never said if I was correct or wrong, but technically this is the high desert and more importantly he told me I was in a desert. So there is zero chance the chest is anywhere near Lucky MAC or Castle Gardens. NOTE: This does NOT mean the clues are not there, only that my ending was wrong, I can’t say any more about this because I have another spot and this one IS in the mountains, the Wind River mountains which are the beginning of the waters according to the indians. It is also where the largest living glacier is in the lower 48, and where the second largest peak in the Rockies exist. Plus, it is below the home of Brown which to me is south of Yellowstone southern border.

      • Well while you’re there check out warm springs creek just a little NW of Dubois where it dumps into the wind river. And warm springs Canyon. WWWH and Canyon down. It has a flume that runs along the cliff face that used to carry logs by running water. That would literally equal heavy loads and water high! Meek not sure would have to be there I guess ..and it’s below your HOB. Other people have been there looking but IMO You want to search where others have been because if people were within a few hundred feet than I want to search places people have been! Good luck

        • Been there all over the place including at the ruins of the old tiehack DuNoir camp in 2016.

      • Interesting post and I like your use of mileage.

        So now you are in the adjustment phase – best of luck to you.

  3. Searching for Fenn’s treasure is one of my favorite hobbies. It gives me a great excuse to get out into the mountains North of Santa Fe. I have been from Glacier Park at the Canadian border to places in Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico. I have seen beautiful places along the way that I would never have thought of going. It is an adventure that I could spend a life time exploring if I only could.

    • I enjoyed what you had to say, Michael. Through the experiences my family and I have shared because of the Chase, I have asked my children not to wait as long as my husband and I have to enjoy the wonders we have seen. There is SO much to enjoy in nature, where ones senses come alive.

  4. Zap posted near the bottom of the last Odds and Ends Thread:
    Question: “Has anyone determined the nine clues and what they represent?”

    Forrest answers: “Well, there’s about 250,000 people that think they have. And, uh, I don’t know that anybody has … has … has told me the clues in the right order. I think that part of the problem is they don’t … they don’t focus on the first clue. If you don’t know where the first clue is, you might as well stay home because you’re not … you’re not going to find the treasure chest. You can’t go out looking for the blaze and expect to find the treasure chest. There’s ten billion blazes out there. So you have to start with the first clue and let it take you to the blaze.”

    Does this mean we need to pay attention to the verb tenses in the poem? The line/clue “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze…” is past tense which implies the blaze should be something you found/saw before you get to that particular line (direction) in the poem. Is the blaze where the end draws nigh? At the heavy loads and water high you’ve walked up the creek to the end where you previously saw the blaze. You’re now there at the blaze so the clues are still in contiguous order and you can now take the chest and go in peace. Isn’t it interesting that in his answer, ff went right from the first clue (wwwh) to the blaze?

    • I still believe something relevant that others seem to dismiss, is the one semi-colon, and how it may affect how the next 2 lines relate to the previous.

    • Hi Cynthia,
      IMHO, yes, past tense because I am convinced the preceding 3 sentences describe the blaze and the line you quote both challenges and confirms (to) the searcher that what they’ve just found is indeed, the Blaze.

      ~ Wisconsin Mike

      ..is it Spring yet?…

      • Hi Virginia, It was the “if you know where to start” comment, that caused the big split in searchers thinking.

    • Hi Cynthia! yes you are correct the blaze is something to be found before you go out searching. as you said, past tense. the blaze is in the book TTOTC. the blaze is feet. feet mark or blaze the trail in the form of footprints. mine are different than yours though because i got three long toes out front and one in back. you have marked the trail to the treasure many times Cynthia.

      i think.

    • Isn’t it interesting that in his answer, ff went right from the first clue (wwwh) to the blaze?

      I found that interesting too Cynthia but mostly because he implies that WWWH should lead us to the blaze. This almost sounds like it starts and ends with one creek or river that WWWH is a part of. WWWH is the start of our clues and part of the river or creek and it leads us to the blaze. Just a guess.

    • Cynthia,
      Given Forrest’s recent suggestion to ‘simplify’, another way to look at the past tense is: If you’ve successfully solved the previous clues (past tense) and gotten to this point then you will be in a position or have the information to now find the blaze (present tense)….

      He has cautioned us so many times not to start in the middle of the poem that I guess it doesn’t surprise me when he talks about both WWH and Blaze together.

      Just a thought.

      • I totally agree you have to start at the beginning with WWWH and follow the clues in the poem in order. What I haven’t been able to figure out is why do searchers go wrong after clue 2. Fenn said they didn’t find the treasure because they left the poem, but yet they walked past the next 7 clues (paraphrasing) at a distance which IMO translates to them being within 200 feet of the treasure at clue 2, which to me means they screw up at or on the way to the home of Brown. This is my dilemma, and where I think your imagination needs to kick in. Aaron I think mentioned in the last archived thread folks “stopping” at clue 2 and wondered what or why. Tom Terrific commented with a few “reasons”.

        Sorry if this has been discussed before.

        • Cynthia,
          I believe there is a strong case to be made for all the clues pointing to places that are in relatively close proximity….maybe even being the same place.

          Other than not really understanding where they were (or the significance of the WW feature they chose) it is baffling why they
          went by the others. One of those unfortunate paradoxes that keep the debates raging.

          • Here are my guesses on where people are yet did not find the TC when they are relatively so close to it. The “special” hidey place probably is 500′ from a dirt road, camp, lodge, or a popularly visited community spot; 200′ from a trail, boardwalk, creek, spring, pond, waterfall, inlet or minor tributary. So easy – not.

        • Cynthia, it is certainly debatable what clue 2 is, whether it is CD or TFTW. Knowing that, and that FF said searchers didn’t have the clues in the right order it seems possible that they may be stopping at some logical stopping point, skipping a clue and walking past the treasure. I do not know how to make sense of getting clues out of order otherwise. Unless of course if they are not supposed to be solved in the order they are in the poem. Clues could theoretically be contiguous and not be in the order of the poem. The definition of contiguous is sharing a common border; touching. I can think of ways this definition can be true without clues being in the exact order.

          • Morning Aaron,

            Regarding your comment about the clues possibly being out of order, how do you reconcile that with this comment from MW on 12/11/14?

            “That’s right joseph, you should start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively to the treasure. Hints in the book are not that organized.f”

            So I that at face value. The hard part is figuring out what are the actual clues in the poem following WWWH.

            Take care………Pinatubocharlie

          • Good Morning Pinatubocharlie,

            “Regarding your comment about the clues possibly being out of order, how do you reconcile that with this comment from MW on 12/11/14?

            “That’s right joseph, you should start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively to the treasure. Hints in the book are not that organized.f””

            Sorry, I was unclear in my response. I believe it is possible to follow the clues and what they represent in order in the poem and on a map without them physically being in order. It is hard to explain how exactly but it can be done. I just believe that we can follow them in order and find the points on the map that they represent.

            Most people are going to try and follow them physically in the order that they are in the poem. From what we know this seems to be causing people to not have them in the right order and walk past clues. To me there is only one reason that makes sense how this can happen.

          • “The hard part is figuring out what are the actual clues in the poem following WWWH.”

            Sometimes I wonder if we make this too complicated….
            Here is my thinking about why:

            For me, more than anything else, I am trying to figure out a WWWH that leads down a canyon to a hoB, that is not far, but too far to walk, all while considering whether is feels like a place that could be very significant to FF, enough to want to be buried there, and a place he mentally goes back to a lot.

            So, with that, how much does it really matter whether there are 3 clues or 4 clues in that section of solves?

            Maybe if I had the above part nailed down, with lots of certainty, then I might start doing some counting and such. Or maybe not.

        • Yea and are the other 7 clues within the 200 feet if say I was 200 feet away lol Because if someone was 200 feet away and only got clue one and 2. Ummmmmm leaves 7 more right there within 200 feet. Right

          • Diggin,
            Well if the clues are all in the same place I’m not putting a number on closeness…it’s not a game of horseshoes…LOL. Sure, it seems unlikely that someone who was actively searching and really solved 1and2 and did get within 200 would not be able to work it out. But when it comes to F’s ‘200 ft’ statements, I hope that most of us would agree that a large part of those stories has been left out. The actual circumstances are lacking.

            IMO, there’s no substitute for knowing the 1st two clues AND being there AND knowing that you could be close. Would you agree that merely searching (randomly) and getting within 200 ft is not the same as having solved the first clue or two and being within 200ft?

            “Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I AM NOT CERTAIN.”

          • Everyone needs to realize that whenever you view something as close as you can on Google Earth, it is a view from about “200ft” away (vertical/in space/overhead). That could change a lot of these conversations, if you think about it.

            “Many” could have been “200 ft” away on Google Earth (because, “they did not realize where they were”) and been on their computer – no where near the treasure. Yet, they were, “within 200 ft.”

            Just MHO…

          • Nice thinking LMN though it doesn’t quite fit with “walking past it” part of the quote.

          • So, Diggin, based on my comment above, it seems to me that “many” and you included, could have shared a Google Earth pic of clue 1 or 2 and be nowhere near clues 8 and 9. You still would have “been within 200ft” and did “not even know it “- yet never set foot anywhere near.

            Could that be true or am I missing some important info? It may be MHO, but I could be wrong.

          • Aaron, Good point on the 8/8/13 “walked right past” quote. Unless that was merely a figure of speech. For example: A searcher showed ff a GE starting point and then their next several clues and their fingers “walked right past” the hiding spot, using GE.

            The actual ff quote provides for lots and lots of wiggle room. “There have BEEN PEOPLE that have figured out the first COUPLE OF CLUES and WALKED RIGHT PAST the treasure chest.” Plus a later quote 4/27/15, “PEOPLE that have BEEN WITHIN 200 feet of the treasure DIDN’T KNOW THEY WERE THERE.”

            Yet, I believe that since these dates the ff comments have actually come true and for very -good- reason the chest remains. (He thought of everything)

          • “How do you know searchers have been within 200 feet of the treasure?” Forrest’s reply (someone else’s transcript of his answer): “Well, because there … people have told me exactly where they were, and that’s the only reason I know. And, and, that 200 feet I think is pretty accurate. But there weren’t very many people within 200 … lots of people within 500 feet of the treasure. But, uh, the people that were with(in) 200 feet didn’t know that they were that close to the treasure, and they walked right on by.”

          • Colokid,

            “IMO, there’s no substitute for knowing the 1st two clues AND being there AND knowing that you could be close. Would you agree that merely searching (randomly) and getting within 200 ft is not the same as having solved the first clue or two and being within 200ft?”

            Agree completely!

        • I think you solve and look for hints then you need to solve again for that area then look again for hints and the last area the poem should fit in a small area at least that is what I have done

          • IMO, when searchers were 200′ from TC, they were not looking down. They have no reason to look down. They were still looking for the blaze or at their perceived blaze.

            If you can not look down to a far off distance of at least 200′ from where you are standing when you see your blaze, it’s the wrong blaze.

            Then, there’s the 500′ dilemma to tie in with 200′.

            I’m just going in circles thinking about it.

          • Some with in 500 ft, others within 200 ft? Must be easy to come up with the first two… yet we moan and groan to each other, ‘ whats the clue .. is this the second clue…. on and on. ff recently told us to stop thinking out of the box so much.
            So, find a hot spring that is near a canyon.or something similar.

        • Hi Cynthia,
          First off , your book is awesome. I highly recommend new searchers pick it up for some older …er, boots on the ground search ideas.
          Now, thanks to a Forrest quote you mentioned, the home of Brown can not be a structure , making my brown house up on the bluff incorrect. I can however resort to the grave of G. R. Brown front and center in the graveyard on the hill , which still works in “putting in below”. . Look at the word putting, and how Forrest used “putt putt” in a quote.
          I think he is saying you are still in a vehicle at the home of Brown, its just where you turn off of the main road. I.M.O., “ADjust heavy loads and water UP” is where you exit your car and walk.
          Also, lets start considering WATTERS as WATERS… i.e. powerlines. And ta’ KIT in the canyon down. Kit Carson Electric supplies the area around Taos. Just a thought.

          • ss,

            “the home of Brown can not be a structure”

            maybe I am confused or my memory got screwed up, but I thought it was that the treasure is not hidden in or near a structure

            do you have another or different reference about the home of Brown?


          • Hi Spallies: there is of course golf putting in the Unfortunate Hiccup Scrapbook. Seattlesullivan: as for puttputt, there are three times I can recall Forrest using that. The first was in TTOTC itself on page 56: “I watched him putt-putt over a distant hill and disappear…” Then there was the EIS Radio interview in 2013: “I landed at a little airport that was used mostly for forward air controllers, little putt-putt airplanes and helicopters.” Finally, a question was posed by a searcher using the name “puttputt” who asked:

            “Now that the 2014 search season has ended, can you summarize the results? Ie: is anyone close to the treasure chest? Has anyone given you a solve? Thanks, puttputt”

            Forrest replied: “I know of a few searchers who have been close to the treasure puttputt, but there is no indication that they knew it. No one has given me the correct solve past the first two clues.f”

          • Thank you Zap… Doesn’tsound to much like he was talking about golf. Does anyone know if Forrest played golf after he left the Air Force?

          • seevan,

            I think your thoughts are kinda brilliant, but I also think that’s why they may prevent you from discovering the final destination. Keep on rollin’ along and maybe you’ll end up where you started! 🙂

  5. Anyone think the Grizzly bear comment from NBC Nightline carries any weight? Grizzly bear habitats would significantly minimizes the potential search areas.

    Did you catch on NBC Nightline when Fenn said, “I didn’t anticipate people would die searching for my treasure, but in the back of my mind it had to be logical that could happen…the GRIZZLY BEARS alone are something to think about.”

    Video: https://youtu.be/_MV7CQPC53M

    In North America, grizzly bears are found in western Canada, Alaska, Wyoming, Montana, Idaho and a small population in Washington.

    • Yes, Allan: I think it’s the most important sentence from the whole interview. Just not for the reasons that people think. People rush to conclude that it eliminates NM and CO, but IMO the hint is far more specific than that.

    • Regardless that there are Grizzlies in Colorado (or not) Fenn knows that searchers are going to be in other states and could run into them. I don’t believe Fenn is giving anymore hints.

      • Maybe not.
        But that part about Fenn stating he said more than he should. Why would that be about simplifying? I can’t help but wonder if it was something else. And the Griz comment is possible, IMO.

      • Hi Rich: Forrest said he isn’t giving any more “clues.” Hints are another matter, and he’s been giving them non-stop from the very beginning as far as I’m concerned.

        • I totally agree Zap as far as previous hints/clues are concerned, but I’m not so sure about continuing to pass out hints.

          Heck, he’s written 3 books, posted hundreds of things on the various blogs, etc. and the puzzle still remains unsolved. What kind of commentary should result from that fact. What does it say about us searchers?

          Maybe he is tired and weak. As a community we need to focus on solving the poem instead of endlessly posting on the blogs.

          I remember something my dad used to say about my grandad’s non-stop jabbering. “He talks all day long and doesn’t say a thing.”


          • Good point Pinatubocharlie, chasing after everything FF says as if it could be hints would just lead to information overload IMO when focusing on the poem is the most important. Most of which seems to be rabbit holes and assistance with confirmation bias.

          • What if Forrest had passed away right after the book was released? He must have included all of the information we need to solve the puzzle. He would have anticipated the possibility of this. Remember, he said all you need is a good map or Google Earth, and the poem. What is on a good map or Google Earth that is not on a “bad” map. It’s WWWH and where you will begin the hunt…

    • I don’t know that it carries much weight as far as the treasure location. To me he is just mentioning it because much of the search area has grizzly bears. Because people are searching throughout the entire search area they are bound to end up in grizzly territory.

    • I keep thinking about the man in SW MT last summer that posted his attack on Facebook just before driving himself to the emergency room.
      He said the bear was about 70 yards when they spotted each other. The bear sprinted straight to him and mauled him while he tried to stay tucked in a ball; then left, but before he got to his truck it came back and attacked him again.

      At a 30mph sprint 70 yards won’t last long. I don’t know if I could get to my bear spray, unlock it, and aim it in those few seconds. Probably not, and I doubt it would bother an attacking Grizzly anyway.

  6. It is only my opinion that I find the clues are in sequential order ; however the hints are splashed throughout the entire poem.
    The clues guide you through the motions and the hints are descriptive in nature. Does this mean I am correct not at all.
    And just because you may be correct it has been a few years which could hinder the ability to actually see the box since it was barely viable in the first place. So you might have the right area but give up.

    • I’m very afraid of rattlesnakes, also. But not anywhere near like bears. I see the rattlers every year while mountain biking the hills behind my house. Seeing them has made me be even more cautious, and on high alert when I ride. What scares me is coming up on them too fast. Otherwise, they are fine for the most part. They try to get away from you, rather than charge you and eat you. I have even picked some up to move away from the trail. I stop being scared of them after I can see them(I still respect them), whereas with a bear, after seeing one, I am MORE scared.

    • I’ve been solo backpacking for the past few years as my earlier hiking companions have lost interest in the wilderness, and have stopped going to Glacier and Bob Marshall because of previous grizzly encounters. I hang my smellables and don’t use scented anything when hiking in NM and CO to avoid black bear encounters, but while I can handle a black, those massive grizzlies scare the heck out of me. If a black smells something, they’re interested until I suggest otherwise. I think a grizzly just sees me as lunch.

    • Lugnutz,

      I believe you made this comment on January16:

      “It would be cool if someone that is talented like Jeremy P could develop an updated version of Fenn’s Map.

      The update would only show a shaded area above 5k and below 10.2k, no deserts, remove the Rio Grande, beginning 8.25 miles north of SF. Then shade another color for known caves and mines, reservation lands and private fenced ranches. The new map would be less than half of the current map”.

      I have made and posted such a map this past December. It was through a Google Docs site which I placed in my reply as a soft link. I had only a few responders after posting this, and then no more replies have been received since then. The map(s) have been improved and updated since December and the offer still stands. If anyone out there still wants to see a map like you describe, then I am willing to share my maps, because it may benefit both myself and you or other Searchers, in a kind of information feedback loop. You tell me what you would like to see displayed and I’ll tell you what I know and if I can put it on a map so that all viewers can comprehend.

      • Hi McK.

        Have you included that map that shows FF’ shadow over the map?

        IMO – that too is a “shaded map”….

        Good luck.

      • Yeah, Mac –

        I think I remember the map but didn’t know you had removed everything under 5k.

        Can you provide the link again please?


        • Lug,

          Yes, my map shows only elevations between 5,000 feet and 10,200 feet as a grayscale base.
          Why don’t you send a note to my email (dbrown-geol@comcast.net) requesting the map (actually a Word document) and I’ll send it. I find the Google Docs thing to be a pain. This applies to anyone else out there reading this reply. I am working on a revision of the maps right now to include one version without a land ownership layer (Wilderness Areas, Indian Reservations etc), which obscures some of the other details like elevation and hoB locations.


  7. I think maybe you all overly concerned with bears and other wildlife. Mostly if you respect them they are of no real danger.

    Fenn gave just enough clues and was cryptic enough with the word choice that just about anywhere could be a search area.(within the search area) if that makes a lick of sense. I think we tend to look for confirmation in our solves without fully understanding what the clues are telling us. Maybe if we looked at things like the story’s of Peter Pan we would better understand.


  8. Someone was mentioning e-mails they had received from Forrest in response to solves and other correspondence. I have always found his e-mails to he filled with hints, and mysterious codes that stagger the imagination.

    For example, a few months ago I sent an extensive e-mail describing my ideas, and mentioning how the Chase had changed my life. I was mesmerized by the reply:

    “Thanks Joe. f” Surely this highly cryptic message contains boat loads of information about the poem and the search. I have this far spent 12 gut-wrenching hours deciphering this strange and enigmatic message, but so far yielding little if any results. Surely “Thanks Joe. f” cannot possibly just be a thank you— there must be much more to this than meets the eye. Can I ascertain WWWH from this short and mysterious reply? Who really knows? I’m dumbfounded but not defeated. I will just carry on.

  9. Please help post in correct blog? I was just thinking today will rereading poem. What was brought to my attention was Forrest love to talk about the 5 senses. However in poem only sight, touch/feel, hear/sound, taste and smell. However only 3 of 5 are mentioned in poem any thoughts?
    Warm waters halt, touch/feel
    Found the blaze, sight
    Look quickly down, sight
    So hear me all and listen good, hear/sound
    Effort worth cold, feel/ touch
    Any thoughts?

  10. Saw something on the comments of 200-500″ from the chest. Various explanations, etc. – so I thought I would offer my own!

    I have been in and out of Natural Parks all over the U.S. and a commonplace thing to see, on the paths that are made for humans, is railings. Some are made naturally with stone from surrounding formations, some are man-made (like rods with an eye at the top for cable to pass through) – and in every park there are Conversation Officers, Park Rangers, Etc. walking the same paths and making sure that people aren’t going beyond the barrier (safety for them, respect for nature). These come in and out along the trails and are typically put in place when they want to limit human traffic to a certain area – last experience was Hocking Hills Ohio in front of a beautiful unnamed waterfall. I bypassed the railings despite it being against the rules of the park and there was a CO close enough to take notice and I was asked to re-locate to the appropriate side of the “barrier”.

    I bring all of this up to point out that Fenn has used a pretty accurate measurement to describe the proximity of the chest to those he knows have “Went right passed it” (quote might be off slightly). Maybe it is because they stopped at a common stopping point, missed the clues that indicated they were basically staring at the chest (indirectly), were too meek to consider going beyond the barrier to retrieve what they sought after and therefore completely missed the chest… The barrier I stood behind was ~ 150-200′ from the waterfall/rock face. Along the same lines – the “it” in “Begin it WWWH” is likely indicative of a specific trail (a way to direct you with only a heading, but keep you from deviating from your ultimate path) and Fenn knows the approximate distance (not close) that he deviated away from that trail (200-500′).


    • I don’t know about a barrier but something prevented them from going the correct direction at their stopping point.

    • OK, Back to the poem, a good map and Google Earth. 1) As I have shown you all how to find “BEGIN” and the co-ordinance on where to begin simply by studying the poem, IMO , it is true to what Forrest says.
      2) A good map to me is the ” Dolene Gazettier”. It includes the small towns not found on a “gas station” map , and the degrees, minutes and seconds.
      3) IMO, “and I have shown this to a few trusted searchers”, I have a Google Earth photo of the Blaze, “Be Laz E”, an enclosure including 2 Chaise Lounge chairs, “your quest 2 c’s”, and the “Last Supper Table” , a large Banquette table in the middle of no where . Along with a dead dart board (dead art board ) , “the painting of the dead dog bleeding on the board”. “DIANA” means Dartboard or Bulls eye in Spanish. Join the Jones Club?… There are marked posts, “POST MARKS” used for tanning hides….”think fire escapes and spankings”. But what has me posting this is the fact that even though this spot is 1/2 acre in a 4 state area, the chest is small and still hidden. Over winter I’ve weighed the logic of each item I’ve pointed out, “plus a couple there I haven’t told you” , which I believe to be the answer. Which? Well, think burning at the steak ! Oh ya, Goggle Earth has a distance scale. It shows a spot Forrest knew I was at, exactly 200 feet from the B LAZY. Hmmmm………

  11. Just a reminder…..we all know what FF said – sit back during the winter time, put patience in place, and then put on your thinking caps. We have plenty of time to have some fun in the Summer.

    Good luck everyone!

  12. Bears are dangerous animals wherever they roam. Polar, Grizzly or Black. Don’t know why ff mentioned Grizzlies, but there are Black bears in all 4 search states. Just be glad there are no Polar bears.

  13. So here’s something that’s been bugging me for while and I don’t recall it being discussed previously here at the HoD and pertains to TTOTC, My War For Me

    The caption on page 76 says “I climbed that ladder 274 times in Vietnam and each time I wondered if that beautiful plane would bring me home again. It did – 272 times.”

    Then on page 78 he says he had flown 326 combat mission up until this last day, the day he was shot down a second time. So he was shot down on his 327th combat mission. Then on page 91 he explains he flew one more time after that because “Every pilot’s dread is to be shot down on his first mission, or his last, and when the latter happens it’s a terrible bust on the morale of this remaining.” So he flew a total of 328 missions.

    So he climbed the ladder into his plane 274 times, but flew 328 combat missions. Hum. Seems unusual to me, but perhaps there were circumstances where he didn’t get out of the plane, refueled, or re-armed, and flew another sortie?

    Any ex-fighter pilots out there who can shed some light on this for me?


    • Hi Pinatubocarlie.

      I am an ex-USN airdale and there are various times that pilots “get scrambled” – suit up, and sit in the cockpit…..waiting for a take off. The sortie is then called off. Thus the pilot will disembark and go back to his ready room.

      I cn understand the numbering used….others may not see that. Hope that helps.

      Good luck.

    • @Pcharlie.

      The following are excerpts from a post to a website on 11-29-2013. They are part of his reply to several supposed discrepancies that had been pointed out by searchers, at that time:

      “I don’t normally read the blogs but ‘xxxxxx’(redacted by loco) alerted me to some problems and miss-information on ‘xxxxxx’(redacted by loco). Perhaps it is prudent for me to make some clarifications. Where research has revealed discrepancies in what I have written, I apologize. Sometimes when the same question is asked months or years apart my answers may vary. You can blame those differences on my brain but not my heart. My mind has been known to malfunction and my memory detour from what I have said previously, and my mood may prompt snap statements that I later realized were off the mark. Please know that I am ambivalent about the treasure being found and that I will never consciously say anything that is designed to mislead or deter.”

      “(4) My flight logs reveal that I flew 328 combat missions. 274 in the F-100 and rest were with forward air controllers in small spotter aircraft. Those missions were to direct air strikes on enemy targets.”

      I hope that answers your question?….LOL!! And no, I feel it would not be in my best interest to provide a link…..you’ll just have to take my word for it’s authenticity. (I believe Zaphod will understand why)

      • thanks Loco, that was one that I wondered as well, I assumed multi-mission flights (ie diff targets/areas), but this clarifies a lot, so thanks. I think his total hours in flight, in each plane, and years would also be super interesting info (not necessarily chase related). I wonder how many times he flew over the spot while moving planes between bases/training missions?

      • That makes sense Loco and no, I won’t ask you to prove it with a link. In fact, he did mention exactly that on page 81, but I didn’t it that a forward air controller mission = combat mission, though I know they were shot at too. Maybe I’m being too literal.

        Thank you much.


      • Thanks, Lobo, for posting this. I can confirm this is part of Forrest’s reply to the discrepancies, as I also read that years ago and have a copy-and -pasted copy in my documents.

      • From the guys list of grapes, its amazing he didnt list the most relevant ones appropriated.
        Maybe Fenn fishing buddy Billy bob can get in contact with his 1st grade buddy billy joe, and they can get together once a year for a margarita.

        • Thanks Cool,
          I had forgotten that Astree placed that on Mike’s, for the step-children. Big shout-out to Mike and his blog….good info over there, too! 🙂

        • Quelle,

          Thank you very much for posting that. Very informative and honest IMO.

          Boy has f changed over the years and Jason may be one of the reasons why.


    • I believe that he throws discrepancies like this in, to ‘catch up in your brain’ and indicate that there is a hint somewhere in that piece of writing. I don’t believe the discrepancies are the hints. They are indicators that a hint is ‘close by’ in the writing.

  14. DRock, Very interesting “open ended poem line” comment. Yet my vote is that they are “open ended” because they are not complete thoughts and MUST be taken in context with the remaining words in the sentence. To allow your mind to wander and abandon the connecting words, would be done to the readers disadvantage. I believe.

    • LMN….He didn’t use a period or comma because open ended questions are those which require more thought. Open ended questions:
      They ask the respondent to think and reflect.
      They will give you opinions and feelings.
      They hand control of the conversation to the respondent.

      An open ended poem is simply a poem that has an ending that is open to interpretation.

      Blaze a Wood are the same thing!
      in the wood required alot more thought.

  15. Random Fish Food:

    an animal of a large race of the brown bear native to North America.
    gray or gray-haired

    Personally I’m afraid of both…I think maybe F is too.

    • Yes!

      Page 6 ttotc – “And then my hair turned grey (his spelling) – okay, white – but that problem was easily solved by just telling people I was dyeing it and they never knew the difference.”

      Makes me think of the blaze.

      It also reminds me of an encounter with a grizz alone in the woods.

      • I wonder if this would be considered “buffaloing” when he mentioned dyeing his hair. Any thoughts?

        • Hi pdenver.

          IMO – with all my research on Native Americans over the years, I think I read somewhere this could be related to the head dress – in a similar way….*shrugs*……

          It is an interesting word usage and imagery when combined.

          • Hello Tim. I apologize for missing your post. Would you be so kind to explain how this would be, please? I’ve done some research, but feel my knowledge isn’t sufficient.

          • Hi pdenver.

            I’m no scholar, so this could be all just my opinion.

            But when it was mentioned, I first thought of an Indian in a buffalo head dess hunched over, and dancing.

            I’m really not versed in Native American culture as well as I should be, but I have read a little…..mainly origin stories and mythologies.

            Thanks for responding.

        • Oh forgot: I saw a framed Ripley’s Believe It Or Not in a cabin in Gardiner, MT where Jim Bridger’s hair turned white in one night, and apparently there’s another framed clipping at Jim Bridger Motor Court that said Bridger exchanged a yoke of oxen worth $25 for a volume of Shakespeare (www.sjsu.edu/faculty/wooda/motelmontana.html).

          Bridger was apparently known to buffaloing or telling tall tales.

      • Why use “his spelling” for grey?
        Grey and gray are the same thing unless something soecific as a greyhound.

  16. Has anyone here encountered a griz while searching? If so, how did you handle the situation?

    • “Has anyone here encountered a griz while fishing?”

      Nothing we could do, we were out in the middle of the Firehole River in chest waders.
      And after the 2 of them decided not to eat us and went their way, I felt sick to my stomach and wanted to leave and go home. But we kept fishing and I got over it.

      Not my first encounter with a bear.

      At 10 we were followed by a black mama bear and 2 cubs on the east side of Yellowstone Lake, while fishing on Cub Creek, back in the days when fishing was allowed during the spawn.
      It traumatized me and I had nightmares to the point of throwing up all that night.

      So I have some anxiety anytime I go out exploring off-trail in the park.
      Last May we hiked the old road path in the Upper Basin (Artemisia to Morning Glory) right after a Griz sighting of a mama bear and cubs, and my heart was racing the entire time, and I was constantly scanning all over and making loud noises. I wanted to see them, but I didn’t.

      I REALLY scared of them, but I’m not letting it stop me from exploring and seeing stuff.

    • Hello Windy City. My family and I were fishing one of the rivers a couple Summers ago and I grizzly bear came upon us unexpectedly from the woods. He was closer to my son, about fifty yards away. Son yelled, “Bear!” and backed away, and we quickly came up from shore and headed inside our vehicle. Last Summer in Rocky Mountain National Park, we could smell a bear was close. The family talked loudly, and walked quickly out of the area.

      • Morning pdenver,

        The grizzly stories of late remind me of an “encounter” I had years ago while fishing.

        One of my all time favorite places to go very early in the morning before daybreak was the Point-No-Point Coast Guard lighthouse just outside Hansville, WA, on the Puget Sound, about 20 miles or so NW of Seattle. It was August and one reason I loved that spot is because the sunrises over the Cascades are beautiful and it was not uncommon to have the beach to myself for the first few hours or so.

        It’s a great place for King and Silver Salmon because there’s a deep, near vertical drop-off right off the beach. I was in chest waders and in waist deep water, but lighting was poor because dawn was just breaking. Then I started to hear a sound I had never heard out there before, but it was a long ways away. I kept fishing and the sound kept getting closer. I continued to peer into the poor light, but still couldn’t recognize what I was hearing as it approached, the sound ever getting louder and louder.

        Then suddenly and much to my surprise and pleasure my brain finally processed the input and there they were, a pod of 5 or 6 Orcas heading directly at me, maybe a 1/4 mile away and I was the only person on that beach to see this beautiful event. As they got closer and closer the proximity warning sensor in my self-preservation system finally went off and I slowly backed out of the water and up onto the beach.

        At about the same time as I was safely on the beach the pod turned at the drop-off and followed it back to deeper water, maybe 25 yards from where I was standing. It was one of the coolest things I’ve ever witnessed!


        • Good morning, Pinatubocharlie. Gosh, your story sounds wonderful! I’m so happy you got to witness this. The way you described it is breathtaking.

          • Hi pdenve…..*tips hat to the hoD*…..good morning to all.

            I was just thinking of a way to look at the nouns in the poem. We know of one at least one word can be a possible “pronoun” (because it is capitalized), but the other words….the rest of the nouns…..
            – we use dictionaries to look them up, to find all kinds of things associated to their meanings…..but….what about an urban dictionary?

            Is it possible to find descriptions in slang and what other people in the world may think about the same word?

            i.e. A name of a place – others see the name is a desription of an “amazing”, or “beautiful”

            – how is that different from descriptions – or possible descriptions – of what the nouns mean?

            Just open thinking?

    • We’ve seen them several times, most recently near Two Ocean Lake just south of YNP, GTNP east of Jackson Lake. The parking lot wasn’t opened up yet, so we walked in a couple of miles or so from the main road, and on the way back, halfway to the road/car, there was a huge grizzly maybe 200 yards to the left, partially hidden in some reeds. He smelled us, lifted up his head, growled, started to move, thought better of it, went back to eating whatever he was eating. It was terrifying. We walked fast, away, and didn’t look back. Two years ago, on a hike in GTNP toward String Lakes, I was walking ahead of my husband, and heard him warn me from behind, looked to my right, and there was a large grizzly mom with a baby walking up the slope, probably would’ve intersected with the trail we were on in about 2 minutes, so maybe 50 yards away. We immediately turned around and walked the way we came and, again, didn’t look back. I don’t think she saw us.

      These encounters make us both think twice about where we search, especially since there are only 2 of us. Apparently, grizzlies have never attacked a group of more than 4 people. We have bear spray, but it is a last resort.

        • Darn bears…again? LOL Scary?….Frightening in many ways. Stay still, curl-up, get mauled, possibly live another day……possibly?

          LOL I will live another day, the will would be there.

          I trust in FF meant safety for everyone. Of course, their is a risk involved – isn’t looking for something in 3 millions miles of the RMs risky in itself?

          We also have a few months to ask ourselves about another poem phrase…..what does it mean to “brave the cold”?

          Good luck to all.

      • This is my opinion and yours may be different:

        I would not go into the mountains in Wyoming or Montana without my rifle and pistol. We search as a team of 2, and even though we have bear spray, I know that a bear charge would probably initiate our firearms before using the spray. A mistake can be fatal out in the wilderness (seconds count).

        Black bears and Grizzly are omnivores. They both will feed on vegetation and berries, but both will eat meat as well. Both are predators, and under the right circumstances, even a black bear will hunt you. They will usually eat from a dead animal though. Grizzly is more aggressive and will hunt live prey to eat.

        Some people believe the spray is enough, but I have read of encounters where the Grizzly just ran through the spray. I feel more safe with my guns but they are no guarantee of safety. I have a healthy fear and respect of the Grizzly bear, and Black Bear too.

        Make noise, use whistles, laugh and talk. Be prepared. My son wrote to Forrest, and he got a response back. Forrest said, “You should always be bear aware sir.”


      • Franklin: the chest is NOT hidden in a dangerous location. If you are walking long distances in Grizz country, you are in the wrong location, IMO. I will never be armed searching for Forrest’s treasure, and while I always carry bear spray, I never expect to use it. If I have to use bear spray, it means I have been paying very poor attention.

        • Zap

          7 or 8 years have gone by since Forrest hid the treasure. Bears migrate around in many parts of the Rockies. Black bear can be anywhere in the 4 state area. I submit that things could have changed in the area since Forrest was last there, and the presence of bears is very possible. There are many black bears here in Colorado, and all you have to do is walk up to the foothills west of Golden and see them.

          Forrest himself said, “You should always be bear aware sir.”

          Please remember to say things are your opinion will you? After 7 or 8 years, any area can become a place where the bears may go, especially as their numbers grow every year.


          • Franklin – the letters IMO mean In My Opinion. That’s what Zap indicated in his post. Did you miss that part?

          • This is all in my opinion:

            I did miss the IMO, but it would be better to precede strong statements with “this is in my opinion” or similar. Zap has no idea if the area where Forrest hid the treasure is dangerous today, or not. This is my opinion of course. No one knows the patterns of bear migration in all parts of the Rockies, including Zap.

            This statement “Franklin: the chest is NOT hidden in a dangerous location”. Is clearly an opinion. I know Forrest has stated this many times, but he has also said “You should always be bear aware sir.”

            He also made that interesting comment recently about the grizzlys in the video interview. Everything is in your opinion until the TC is found


          • Franklin,

            Let me also remind you that you don’t know what Zap knows or doesn’t know in his search. He voiced his opinion and clearly noted “IMO” – we all voice our opinion here.

            I happen to believe that Zap is one of the top analytical searchers …if not, the top based upon his sharing of certain comments here.

            I also concur with him that the chest is not hidden in a dangerous place.

            IMO, of course.

          • Covert One. I concur.

            I try to use it and miss it as well. My apologies to Dal and the community for not using it with all posts.

            Everything I say, is IMO – my apologies.

            Best of luck to all.

          • Covert and Zap

            All In My Opinion:

            I get discouraged here sometimes, I feel that some of you have a very elitist attitude which curtails a higher level of common sense discussions. I don’t care what you think honestly. I was just sharing what I know about bears, and that I believe there are bears in the area where Forrest hid the treasure. There are many things which all the intellectual analysis in the world won’t change. So many times I feel like this forum has become a private place for you elites, and the rest of us should just be quiet. OK, I will do so.


          • Elites? Nah, just alumni. Lightening up just a little and see that not one person here knows more than anyone else. Knowledge is not power anymore because we can pretty much look up anything we need to know and also pertaining to this chase. Wisdom is the real power; knowlege is pretty useless without wisdom. IMO .

            Gotta find that Blaze.

          • Franklin,

            It doesn’t matter where you say IMO and not always necessary. Zap & Covert are not “you elites” anymore than anyone else that participates.

            Moving on 🙂

        • zaphod,

          “the chest is NOT hidden in a dangerous location.”

          I agree for the most part, other than how broad does “location” entail?
          The exact spot the chest is placed?
          The area between getting out of a vehicle to reach that spot?

          “If you are walking long distances in Grizz country, you are in the wrong location, IMO.”

          I agree with this, because of “long distances”.
          I don’t believe walking long distances is necessary to reach the chest. IMO 🙂
          But I am not discounting that it might be where Grizzly could be.

          When we had an encounter with 2 Grizzlys on the Firehole, we were about 100 yards from the road, though the road was obscured by trees. Back then, with all the fishing in the park we had done, we had never considered needing bear spray or guns. Nor that it was dangerous. Yet, we could have died right there.
          How about fishing pretty much any part of the Madison River? Would that be labeled as dangerous, since it is possible that Grizzlys could be in the area anywhere that Fenn fished?

          I think it is a gray area in what we call a dangerous location.

          • If people would wear bells while searching this would go a long way, I’ve done this for years. When I saw bears they were going in a different direction.

          • Charlie,

            Excellent point. I need to remember to bring some from my mountain bikes for next time I am up there.

            Last time we were off exploring where we had heard a Griz and cubs had been sighted, we sang dorky songs really loud the whole time. I am thinking The Carpenters or something like that. LOL

          • I have always heard that you can recoginize grizzly bear scat by the little shiney bells in it.

          • Another thought, a more serious one, this is the first comment I can recall from FF that might have been spoken without proper thought.
            Many could take this as a directive to go where grizzlys are. And could lead to a bad encounter. I sure hope not.

          • Hi McKendree: on the Grizzly threat, you indicated: “Guess I won’t be visiting Yellowstone or Jackson Hole any time soon, let alone western Montana.”

            What, and specifically exclude the likely spots where the chest could be located?? Example: West Yellowstone is in western Montana. Not too many people are looking over the shoulders worrying about Grizzly bears there. Same goes for Old Faithful. And I’m guessing it’s a pretty rare occurrence to spot a Grizz crossing a paved road, would you agree? The only time I’ve ever seen Grizzly bears while I was on a paved road was in Glacier National Park.

          • pdenver: it’s certainly more west than east. Perhaps to be more accurate I’d say W.Y. is in southwestern Montana.

          • Hello Zap. I forgot to add a smiley face to my last comment. 🙂 I believe one should be cautious no matter where one searchers. I think there’s more of a chance of tripping over a stone than to meet up with a grizzly bear.

          • Hello Zap. I hope my other post shows up. I believe searchers should be cautious wherever they search. I also believe that there is a greater chance of tripping over a stone rather than confronting a grizzly bear.

          • pdenver,

            As your exiting the park towards West Yellowstone, just a few miles before the gate you’ll see a sign saying you are entering Montana.

            Yellowstone N.P. also crosses into a little bit of Idaho south of West Yellowstone.

        • Yes, Franklin: you bring up a good point. What was comparatively “safe” at the time Forrest hid the treasure in the summer of 2010 may become less so as time goes by. But as things stand in 2018, I have no fear walking where I think the treasure is secreted. If you can spot a bear from half a mile in any direction from which one could come, would you agree that you have little to worry about?

          • IMO – Zap.

            The RMs have various ranges that grizzlies and other bears have habitats they frequent – so one does have to research their habitats, if they decide to go searching. I’d do such, if they are fearful, this will help ease their minds.

            I can name two known grizzly habitats that surround my general solve search area.

            Could this mean the “home of Brown”? I don’t know. It seems that it could be plausible in some way roundabout way…*shrugs* ….i’m just not sure on how much imagination is required.

            CHeers. good info. Thanks for sharing.

        • zaphod,

          I agree with your point if I understand you correctly. So far I have been to about six search sites, and none of them had any potential confrontation issues with grizzlies
          ( but maybe black bears). No long walking distances from my car were involved in my searches and they were in places outside known grizzly habitats. I plan to keep this the same in future ground searches. Guess I won’t be visiting Yellowstone or Jackson Hole any time soon, let alone western Montana.

          • Zap, I have seen grizzlies cross paved roads several times, actually, particularly with cubs in mid- to late May.

            Grizzlies are moving their territory, yes. We have a friend on the Sunshine Coast in BC who had to abandon her home for awhile because bears had come down the mountainside looking for food and had basically taken over the place…

  17. !0 4. Both times a loud snapping branch gave her away. A quick, loud snap ,like no other creature in the forest would make. They get careless on the stalk. The first, I sang a lilting rendition of hey there bear, face to face at about 20 yards. You don’t need to know the words, It just comes to you. She then slipped into the aspens and I lost sight. It was a 75 yard tightrope walk across three layer dead fall to the cliff. At cliffs edge I heard the loud snap that sent me over the edge. Things got a little tricky from there, but it all worked out, and the bear was gone. The second time she had two cubs and was on a beeline for me when my search partner heard the snap and called out distracting her. She felt torn between our two separate positions and her cubs. She went back to her cubs. I got back to my partner and we squatted down in plain view of her. Feeling kind of silly, and shaking in our boots we decided to get up, talking to her the whole time and walk at a slight angle away and past, as she was blocking out exit. We were not going to risk another close call if we lost contact. We felt at that moment we had an understanding with her and were going to take advantage of it. We were betting everything. All in. She let us go. Also listen to the squirrels, they go nuts. Not like normal, get away from my nuts chatter, but really panicked. I had seen this around a mountain lion before and should have known. But at that point, if you can stay calm, it is up to the bear. Never alone again, and two bear sprays each. I still get out there, with a little reluctance, but will never regret it. This is the real world, not the one created by man. Live it while you can. g

  18. HaydukeCC, I tend to agree with your statement “So, with that, how much does it really matter whether there are 3 clues or 4 clues in that section of solves?”

    It is more important to find WWWH and how we go about solving it than it is about counting the clues. To me the main reason for attempting to count is to determine where people that were close were making mistakes. This is not as important but still worth noting.

  19. I shared this with Forrest recently, but he being 87 years old almost guarantees he has heard it before. But it does have to do with Grizzly bears.

    This gentleman decided one Sunday not to go to church but instead to do some bear hunting. He felt very guilty about it on the way—but he arrived, left his car, and started to hunt on foot. He heard a loud crack, and then a very fierce growl. He looked quickly to his left and saw a grizzly bear standing on it’s hind legs, glaring at him.

    He began to run as fast as he could, and in between breaths he cried out “Lord, I am so sorry for what I did today!! I knew I should have gone to church instead!! Please Lord, let this be a religious bear—I plead with you, please let this be a religious bear!!!”

    He ran until he came to the edge of a precipice. The bear came within a foot of him growling loudly and swinging it’s paws. Again the man shouted “Please Lord, Please!! Let this be a religious bear!! I’m begging you!!”

    Just then, miraculously, the bear stepped back and sat down on his hind legs. The man groaned a loud sigh of relief.

    The bear then bowed it’s head and said “Lord, I think you for this meal I am about to receive”.

    • another great bear anecdote —

      Two hikers see a huge grizzly step out onto the trail ahead of them, rear up and growl menacingly, saliva dripping off its choppers. One guy immediately drops his pack, pulls out his tennis shoes and removes his boots to put them on. His partner says ‘you fool, you’ll never out run a bear!’ Guy responds — ‘dude, I don’t need to out run him; I just need to out run you.’

  20. By the way, speaking of bears:

    LAIR: : a place where someone hides or where someone goes to be alone and to feel safe or comfortable.

    • Hmmm……I’d think that would be my den.
      Anyway, let me liven things up here a bit. One of Forrests most famous quotes was ” Bring a sandwich and a flashlight”. I believe I had solved the “sandwich” part by adding a Y in front of sandwich. (“so why is it” and “if you’ve been Y’s” ). The answer being Ys and Which , or “why’s and which”. Ah, but FLASHLIGHT had me stumped…..until now. Think flutter by. And if your familiar with the ball of string story, letter carry and inner twine. Flash light becomes ASH FLIGHT. I will let you figure out the rest.

      • seattle sullivan, hey its maurititus dodo.

        ash flight – tea with olga.
        aim (look) flash(quickly) low(down)
        i need to figure out how to rest.

        i think.

      • Seattle, “ash light” is exactly what I get. It has to do with the blaze, IMO. Camp fire site, shaped a certain way, that’s marvel gaze. There is a “Y” stick there. 7′ tall. It’s what you take at this point, not the chest. It’s part of the story. Of course it could be destroyed, but in following the story that f has told, it’s what you stand up at the spot/coordinates. Indiana in the map room thinking. Creates a shadow from the “ash light”. I get “swich” to “ash light” for the sandwich and flashlight. (S and W ich), Switch being a stick/branch/whatever.
        Funny how we came across the same solution by totally different ways. For me, F=1,L=1, for two/to/too. Swich to ash light. And, for flutterby, lol, B=2, simple B=F+L.
        Two entirely different ways to get to the same conclusion. Pretty interesting.

        • LOL

          ….we could also imagine a “wise wich” = “wise witch”. That Forrest….LOL

          We really don’t know what he is thinking, huh?

          He’s clever, i can say that, from just trying to figure out the poem.

          I still think a regular joe guy can figure it out…..with some added and pretty wild imagination.

          Who knows how it will be, huh?

          Good luck and be safe out there.

      • Ash Flight is to Flashlight as:
        Flutterby is to Butterfly

        seattlesullivan – what if you really are on to something with this?

  21. Hi Guy’s,

    I’m curious to know the following;

    I’ve heard some of you guy’s talking about Park Rangers at Yellowstone National Park.

    How much of the law do they have on their side, for example can they stop and search.

    If the T.C is hidden in Yellowstone and someone is bringing some of the treasure back in their backpack, with the intention of making two or three trips due to the total weight being 42 ibs.

    Do the Park Rangers have the right to stop you and search your backpack ?

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Ronnie,

      I don’t know the answer.
      But now that you have shared that you might be going to Yellowstone, if it doesn’t bother Dal, you should open a dialogue sometime before you come over and get some good ideas on places to see there. I can offer suggestions, and also some resources for geyser predictions that most people aren’t aware of.

    • Ronnie and Scot, yes the ranger can search your backpack and that is why i bought hundreds of dollars worth of souvenirs at the mammoth hot spring gift shop. then sent the items home in a box at the post office, and i kept the receipt to show the ranger i purchased the items from forrest fenns treasure.


    • Ronnie,
      There are rangers that are specifically tasked with law enforcement. They are considered federal law enforcement officers.

      Not a lawyer but, as with most things in the US, it probably comes down to “probably cause”…..do they have a reason to suspect you are or did commit a crime. Never heard of any random searching in the parks.

      Passing through customs would be a whole different issue. Good luck with that.

    • 2 parter: I’m a longtime CO/WY resident, outdoorsy type…my dad and I hunted elk for a long time in the snowy range. Once on day 2 of packing meat out, first trip to the carcass and notice pretty good sized prints (black bear, but the print was as big as my winter glove), the gut pile was opened up and snacked on…but was frozen so could tell it wasn’t recent. In our area we’d also seen cat tracks. My scariest bear encounter was near Pahaska Teepee on the N fork of the Shoshone, in July, fishing. We were told bears in the area, 3 of us so didn’t think much of it, on the way back 2 of us were fishing and my dad was on the trail, head down, slow walk, he alerted us as we were in the water, and didn’t hear it coming, but as we looked up saw a pretty good sized grizz charging us from about 100 yds, luckily our split position (separated by about 50 yards) seemed to stop him when my dad yelled at us. The next day in the NE side of the park, saw a line of cars, people out of their vehicles taking photos of a young, very skinny but still 4-500lb griz…I saw a woman with a camera jump in the back of a pickup as the bear ran across the road multiple times, severely stressed out. Another time in the park near old faithful we saw people out in the bushes approaching a mama w 2 cubs…please please please people! DO NOT get between a mama and her babies you will get f’d up. Also, just a word for those that think bears are to worry about…a mama moose can be MUCH MUCH more dangerous…how bout 1200 lbs stomping on your head? I’ve startled moose twice in my life and was way more scary than the bears.

      Ronnie – National Parks in the US are FEDERAL land…that means FEDERAL laws apply, of which the parks have many. For example, even if you’re in a state that allows for certain recreational drugs…a park ranger can arrest you on Federal charges. Absolutely, a ranger could ask to search your person, car, bags, etc. with probable cause (anything really). Additionally, abandoned property within National Park land, or, items believed to be of ‘cultural’ significance would immediately become the property of the Federal government if found, in fact, by law, you are required to immediately report items to rangers. Many searchers have been warned by rangers for things like metal detectors, digging, being off trail, not having appropriate back country permits, etc. Do your homework. Many believe these issues limit the likelihood of the chest being in a National Park (IMO IMO IMO). I think you’re going to have a lovely vacation (assuming the park is your destination).

    • While a park ranger may be legally authorized to search a hiker it is not very likely that they would do so. The few times that I have interacted with rangers they showed no interest in what I was carrying.

  22. More emphasis has been put on the poem, as a set of instructions, or directions, rather than a poem. I think this has caused searchers to miss something, in trying to solve the poem. It’s like the poem itself, has been pushed aside, in favor of what look like directions or instructions.

    • To take this poem at face value to start is not going to result in a solve, IMO. The poem has to tell us what to do. That is instructions. We already know that directions will be some part of the poem, it has to be, or you would be stuck at the first clue. To just pick a starting spot with no reason but that it sounds good, history fits, matches ATF’s, is close to a canyon, and matches some hints in the book, is not the way to go, IMO. The poem must come up with a way to show us our starting position. Only solving the poem will do that. Something in the poem solve will reveal this, and since face value leads to a goose chase, thinking there are instructions and/or directions seems to be a logical conclusion. And, with so many instruction words in the poem, best to follow them.

      • Hi charlie, I’m thinking there must be another element to the poem, that has gone unnoticed Mr. Fenn, said something about a possibility, related to the solve, that no one had mentioned.

        • Hi, James,

          Perhaps the poem is actually a riddle, the answer to the riddle i.e “Where (or What) am I?” being the location (in one form or another) of the treasure. I’ve started working on this premise after three unsuccessful – but FUN – BOTG searches, and I feel like I’m making some headway. Out of the box thinking, but perhaps it’ll lead somewhere.

          • Hi TJ, I think that line of thought, is probably the right track that will lead to a solution.

        • I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.

          Yea, that was back in Feb. 2015. You may be right. I’m more inclined to think that the one important POSSIBILITY is that all the clues cannot be solved from home. At least before BotG. His intensions of getting everyone off the couch and into the wild, (paraphrasing), makes me believe that at least one trip will be taken before the winning trip. Two trips. Just seems like it will take one trip just to get the solve on the right track. He says two trips a lot, maybe he’s actually hinting at the fact that it will take at least two trips. I don’t think the poem can solve, individually, wwwh and what the blaze actually is. Or the 3rd clue for that matter. To see his wording in that ATF comment, just seems like the one possibility that searchers have not grasped is the possibility that all clues cannot be solved.

          TJ- Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map. F
          That comment has been used so much, I’ve always wondered why he said “positive solutions”. What, they may not get you to the spot, but it’s a step in the right direction? I mean really, everyone already knows that excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map, who wouldn’t use those, so why tell us? I guess knowing about riddles, cyphers, etc… will not find the spot, but maybe they sure can help. Who knows? This whole thing is about him, his memoir, his history, so maybe the solve is just the fact of knowing him, and the solve is within the I’s, am’s, and my’s, etc…Again, who knows. But, with his ATF comment, is that to mean that it won’t take you to the chest, even though it is a positive solution. A lot to think about.

  23. Thanks guy’s for your comments regarding Park Rangers.

    Sorry guy’s I would love to tell you where my destination is, Yellowstone is in one of the four states meaning that there is a 25% chance of me going there.

    I will say this having done a lot of reading and watching lots of video footage I noticed that there where two other guy’s that where on the same wavelength as myself.

    However I have not heard or seen anything from them for sometime, I think they may have given up on the chase ?

    I am as confident as I can be in my solve, I have studied it over and over again and feel that I can do no more, next step for me is to have BOTG.

    I would however like to say this, there has been a lot of people spent a lot of time and money on this adventure.

    Forrest has said use imagination, I am going to give you guy’s something to think about, it’s all related to the poem.

    1. 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9
    2. 9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1
    3. Imagination
    4. Combination
    5. B
    B O B
    6. Square
    7. Heavy on top
    8. Heavy Below
    9. I can’t go any further
    10. 200 Feet
    11. 500 Feet

    You can laugh at it or take it on board it’s up to yourselves.

    When it comes to me visiting your beautiful country, I wil be doing approximately a 12000 mile round trip, I have no intention of coming back empty handed but time will tell.

    Ronnie the Scot

      • For some reason it is not allowing what I am trying to do.

        The bottom letter B should be directly under the letter O to represent a cross.

        Ronnie the Scot

          • Covert One,

            All being well I will be visiting your beautiful country in
            the middle of June.

            Ronnie the Scot

          • June is a great time to visit – just be very careful especially with snow melt and water flow in the rivers and streams.

            If you are in the states in June, do you plan to go to Cynthia’s gathering at West Yellowstone?

            I can see some Irish sitting around the campfire there at night like this:


          • Hi Covert One.

            WYP in June sounds great….and a party to go along with?

            WOW! you guys really know how to travel and have fun!

            WYP does have some good eatin’s and is always on the trip when we go to YNP.

            Sounds like a fun time many can have.

            Be safe.

          • That is Right Kira… I was speaking of the blog configurations that aligns to the left no mater how you may write something.

            Ronnie the Scot… I could honestly care less about where you think the treasure is… Because I already know your not in my area by what you have said. No harm meant. Good luck to you. Have faith and stay safe.

            It isn’t as easy as you may think. Plenty of us have felt sure and come up empty each time.

          • *raises hand*

            Empty handed crowd!….*sighs*…..

            Its harder than most people think it is…IMO.

            Lots of thinking required….lots.

            Prepare, prepare, prepare and…being safe is my goal when I search. Focussed.

            Good luck to you too James. Having fun is also part of it too. :o)

            IMO of course….*smiles*….

          • James (TZP)

            I have put eleven parts in for you guy’s to try and figure out if you so wish, all related to the poem in my opinion.

            If you can figure out the eleven parts, will take you to the area where I start my solve.

            I am not going to make this easy for anyone, I am very curious as to how you come to the conclusion that it aligns to the left.

            That doesn’t tell you anything James.

            Ronnie the Scot

          • I agree Kira.

            Ronnie was cryptic, but then again, I don’t blame him, especially if he is travelling abroad. He just wants to be secure with his general solve and in his adventure. I feel him.

            IMO – Ronnie is just sharing…….but…..he doesn’t want to give up too much.

            Thanks Ronnie….good luck and be safe…..and like others have said, be sure to let someone know where you go…..OR……even write down it on a piece of paper and put it somewhere it can be found by a relative.

            Just be safe.

        • Hi Ronnie–Now it all makes sense..Me asking that we share a Wee Dram of that Single Malt that you are bringing with you to the ends of civilization,and me thinking you are questioning my honor..When all the while you just want me to Bring my Own Booze. I get it now BOW—Bring Own Booze. Wish you well on your search..

      • Batty,

        All I was saying is that the T.C is hidden in one of four states.

        Each state represents 25 %, thats how I was looking at it.

        But thanks for the info, I’m learning about the Rockies all the time.

        Ronnie the Scot

  24. Bears (old joke, short version, author unkown)
    A big Brown bear walked into a Bozeman biker bar and ordered a black beer.
    The bartender said, we don’t serve big Brown bears black beer.
    Bahoom, the bear went a little boinkers,
    and bit off a chunk of the bar and ate it.
    Gimme a black beer he barked.
    The Bozeman biker bar bartender said,,
    We don’t t server big Brown bears who
    do drugs, black beer.
    Drugs??!! the bear bellowed,
    Yes, said the bartenfer,
    I saw that bar bit u ate….

  25. “Generally speaking, there are places where one should stay on established trails; Yellowstone is one.”

    “There isn’t a human trail in very close proximity to where I hid the treasure.”

    So, stay on the trails (if in Yellowstone) but it’s not in very close proximity to a human trail. Does this point to it being hid out side of Yellowstone?

    • Covert One,

      I think that you are very clever the way that you put that question to me, regarding if I will be going to Cynthia’s gathering during my visit.

      So if you don’t mind I will not answer it, I feel that I am starting to sound like Forrest Fenn.

      Ronnie the Scot

      • LOL

        *waves from way over the pond*

        I’ve heard that the Scottish are very clever and smart. Be safe.

        Best of luck Ronnie.

      • Ronnie,

        I respect that you may want to stay somewhat covert about your location and search in the states – I would also.

        Be careful with some things that may not be discussed much here – for example, many people don’t know that metal detectors aren’t allowed in National Parks. It goes beyond using a metal detector – the law says a person can’t even have one in the National Park. It’s a felony so be careful with that if you do venture to one of those parks.

        The other thing I would offer – depending on where you go, even June can have conditions that can catch hikers off guard. I’ve been in higher elevations in the Rockies in early July and it snowed a couple of inches overnight. Be prepared for that even in June if up at higher elevation.

        …and the snow melt. That’s the one that can surprise searchers that are near water – last year was a good example of water flow that was above average. Snow melt can be a factor even in June.

        …and finally, bears. I’ve never had an encounter up close but I always carry bear spray.

        Covert One

        • I’m with you Covert One. I always put safety as my job #1.

          Shoot – if I can’t even prepare to be safe before I go. I won’t go. That is my bottom line.

          I, in the least, I want to return home with very few bug bites as possible……LOL……and I’ve had my share of them mosquitos…..boy have I…..sheez..

          If I cannot be safe in what I do…..I just don’t do it. Always been that way for me…..anywhere.

          IMO – safety first, fun second.

          Good luck to you sir. Just have fun while visiting the US, while being safe.


        • Covert One,

          I very much appreciate you and fellow searchers feedback

          I fully appreciate and understand everything that you have said.

          Regarding the Bear Spray, that is something that I am well aware off.

          Are there different types of Bear Spray and if so what would be the best one to get ?

          Or is there only one type ?

          Ronnie the Scot

      • Hi Ronnie.

        We probably won’t be there at the same time anyhow.

        But….you be safe no matter what.

        I’ll raise you a shot glass from faraway.

  26. OMG, I am so laughing… If you’re looking for those ‘subtle hints’ in TTOTC, y’all gotta read CATCHER IN THE RYE again. Much of the content & language of the CHASE is there, and it may help you separate the chaff from the hints. Learn more about the man that wrote the book that “wrote itself’.

    Ex; At the home of an aged history teacher you read : ‘Life is a game’ & ‘you should play by the rules’… A ref. to Fenn’s Poker poem? Or his rules? One of Holden’s favorite writers is Ring Lardner, known for idiosyncratic vernacular. Wiki him, then note all the frequent phrase-matches between Salinger & Fenn: ‘If you really want to know the truth’ & “I don’t want to talk about it.” Holden’s Grandma sends him dough (cash) for his birthday about 4 times a year … A joke ref to all those grandmas that give pies to Forrest? The book is a fast read, the cross-references are plentiful & hilarious… includes a hat, canasta, falling over a suitcase in a hurry to get out of there, ducks, sonufabitch (John Charles?), Fitzgerald & Hemingway, a Colorado life change, etc. I liked The Bakers Wife, a Meadowlark reference, but if you want to know the truth, I really laughed when Holden describes himself as a liar and an exhibitionist. Soooo much fun. Fenn must have had a literary ball writing TTOTC. And of course, underlying it all is education.

    The CHASE is for kids, to educate them through a happy wilderness experiences. But Fenn had to overcome two obsticles … First, kids would need adult support, and Second, he had to foil the lust of the gold-diggers and engineers. That’s why it took so long to build the lure. Catch and release the kids. OS2

    • OS2 – you said “foil the lust of the gold-diggers and engineers”.

      I get the gold-digger portion of the comment – but what’s with trying to foil the engineers?

      Would you say an engineer has an advantage or disadvantage in the chase?

      • Well crap, now it’s one more book I’m gonna have to read.
        And get all confused even more.

      • The engineers lust to solve. I know, I have 4 in my immediate family. Chemical, Electrical, Civil, and a Chemical/Electrical. My husband (deceased) was a physicist.

        “Leave it alone already, I’ll buy a new one!”

        I recently discovered a badly burnt favorite All-Clad pot could be cleaned with Draino-gel. Thank you my chemist.

        • OS2 – the engineers lust to solve might be an asset for you in the chase. With so many around you and in different disciplines, they might be able to solve the poem with the “brain trust” and lust to solve.

          Have you put them to work on the poem?

          • Covert One … Do you think Fenn’s change (Nightline video) — from ‘getting kids off the sofa’ to ‘giving hope to people suffering an economic depression’ — tells you anything about the chase?

            The new ‘recession’ motive seems pretty lame since the Chase idea had been brewing over 15-20 years. The ‘sofa-kid’ idea always seemed a bit artificial to me… until I re-read CATCHER and put 2 & 2 together…. if you want to know the truth.

            I think a complex, personal motive sustained Fenn’s drive over the years. But his motive is a different discussion, I’m talking about his method. So now the ‘sofa-kids idea is an important HINT to me.

            And I don’t discount the meanings of ‘kids’ when considering a location. Good Luck to you. My engineers are more interested in their jobs & sky slopes right now. I should have given them all Lewis & Clark books for Christmas. OS2

    • OS2,

      I agree with your observations about the similarities between TTOTC and “The Catcher in the Rye”. I read the book about 6 months ago (for the 2nd time) It was required reading when I was in Junior High School in the early seventies. I enjoyed reading it even more the 2nd time!

      Here’s a link to a PDF of the book in case anyone wants to read it. I highly recommend this read, as it seems to strongly relate to Fenn’s writings.



      • Thanks Fennatical, My experience was similar but much earlier… first copywrite is 1945, I read it in the mid 50’s in college. I think IMP LIT presents a literary landscape that describes the hunt landscape, Two Giants, a lesser known feature (Kismet), and a Catcher. I have some pretty extensive thoughts on it. But like the engineers, my lust is to solve. I will never search. And like Fenn, i am ambivalent about a solve … theres nothing left for the kids.

        • OS2, I believe Forrest created this to be solved in his lifetime. Why else would he have stayed involved otherwise, continuing to give hints over the years, and writing 2 more books to aide searchers?

          • Your right to think so Twingem, but I disagree. I don’t think TFTW or OUAW were written to help hunters. Nor written to foil them. Fenn just likes to tell stories, to leave a record, to share the spirt.

      • The first time I read “The Catcher in the Rye” was being involved with the Chase. When I read the book, it drove my mind crazy. I didn’t like the way it was written. With your post, Fennatical, and the suggestion of rereading it, my thoughts say, “Do I have to?!?” I know what the answer is, and I probably should. Thank you for the link.

        • Hi pdenver — the read will be worth your effort, even if you only read the first several pages. The tie-ins to TTOTC are undeniable, and at times you might find yourself wondering (between J.D. Salinger and Forrest) who is copying whom. Yellowstone, hot chocolate, giggling girls, life’s a game, a Navajo blanket from an Indian, flunking classes — all in the first couple pages.

          • Hello Zaphod. I did complete the book, but it looks like I’ll have to reread it because I do not remember much of it.

          • PenD. I know you will enjoy it this time. Fenn’s keen eye & his imagination re-costume a slew of his ‘friend’ JD’s. details —thus the “unauthorized autobiography”.

            In it I discovered a new meaning for tarry scant. And hats and kids took on more significance. Good luck.

          • Hello OS2. Taking the time to reread, “The Catcher in the Rye,” and I’ve read more than half so far. I have noticed many things related to the Chase, although I’m still not fond of this book.

  27. Thanks guy’s for the info about the Bear Spray.

    Covert One thanks for the info about not allowing Bear Spray on the plane, I didn’t know that, I was going to get the spray in Scotland.

    Thanks once again guy’s

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Does anyone know where I can buy some Scotsman Spray? I might need some soon.

      Just kidding Ronnie. Good luck!!!

      • Sparrow,

        I’ll ask Haggis Mcbagpipes he might know where to get some Scotsman Spray.

        Ronnie the Scot

    • Hi Ronnie, you probably better leave the Haggis at home, too. You’ll have every bear in the woods following you on the trail if you have any of that in your pockets.

        • Haha, Ronnie! I meant the awful fish stuff! But maybe McBaggis will change his mind and hit the trail with you

          • Jeannie,

            Once Haggis Mcbagpipes has made up his mind then unfortunately he will not budge.

            I’ve got more chance of Mel Gibson going on the trail with me.

            Ronnie the Scot

          • Hi Ronnie.

            So true of some Scots…..but not all. I married a Scot/Irish…talk about fiesty!!


            To say the least…..almost as thrilling as other adventures.

            i.e. 1st trip to YNP – arrived about 20 minutes right before Old Faithful erupted. Timing was right there. We were all thrilled. It really was great timing unbeknownst to any of us. Quite beautiful. BUT – I def don’t want to be there when it “really erupts”….if you know what I mean……BOOM!! :o) That scares me more than bears.


  28. Tim Z,

    I know what you mean, unfortunately this sort of thing is out of anyone’s control.

    If you’re wife is Scot/Irish she must be a good woman, does she have red hair and is she as fiery as Maureen “O” Hara who starred in the quiet man along side the great John Wayne.

    I love that film, if you or your wife has not seen it, it’s a must see the Irish sense of humor is brilliant.

    Just curious Tim, how long have you been involved in the chase and how many trips have you made if you don’t mind me asking.

    Ronnie the Scot

    • LOL – fiery red? Nope. Fiesty blonde! LOL

      March 2013 when the poem was given to me to look at and talk about.


      I’ve enjoyed every minute in the chase. It actually is a lifelong dream of mine to find a hidden treasure. I wasn’t going to let this one pass.


      • Tim Z,

        Likewise I too have always had an interest in hidden treasure.

        Especially if it is about the knights templar or the Egyptians.

        I was actually looking up information on the knights templar when for some reason or another Forrest Fenn appeared on one of the web pages, I read the poem and that was it I was hooked.

        Ronnie the Scot

  29. Thanks guy’s for your good luck messages for my trip to your beautiful country in June.

    I would just like to say that I don’t want any of you guy’s thinking that I am making out that I have got the correct solve.

    I can only go on what I have read and studied and everything seems to fit into place.

    I have got a lot of respect for you guy’s on the search, especially the searchers that have been looking for the T.C since it began and putting in forty or fifty trips, thats what you call dedication.

    I will not get any better in my solve, the next step for me is to have BOTG.

    I am a great believer that if a once in a lifetime opportunity comes along then you either take it or you don’t.

    I honestly believe that this is my opportunity in my life to take and nothing will change my mind.

    I am not just talking about me, I’m talking about each and everyone of us, it doesn’t matter if it is finding indulgence or doing something else, we all get one chance in life.

    If I have the correct solve I will find the T.C, if I don’t have the correct solve then I will still have treasured memories.

    Good luck to all of you in your search.

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Hey there Ronnie,

      This may be long, so please forgive me.

      Your comment “I am a great believer that if a once in a lifetime opportunity comes along then you either take it or you don’t” struck a cord with me.

      You see, I was offered a job in the Philippines only 18 months out of college and the reason I decided to take the job was just that, it was a once in a life time opportunity and I didn’t ever want to look back and have the regret, what did I miss? I should have gone.

      I had already travelled to many places around the western US with my folks including Alaska, the Yukon, and British Columbia via the Al-Can Highway (1500 miles and a 100% gravel road at that time), from the San Francisco Bay Area. But this trip to the Philippines would be different; no family and kind of one-way. I knew nothing of their food, their customs and culture, and most importantly, nothing about the job really. It was a risk and I took it.

      As soon as the plane was wheels-up I distinctly remember looking out the window thinking, what the heck have you gotten yourself into now? We stopped to re-fuel in Honolulu and when we got off the plane (no jet-way) I thought, wow, warm, nice, but a little humid. Guam was the next stop, no jet-way, and bam, HUMIDITY! Then finally, after being “on the road” for 26 hours I finally arrived at Clark AB, Philippines.

      Definitely no jet-way and as soon as I stepped through the airplane door my glasses told me what I was in for. They immediately fogged up completely and again, I reconsidered the wiseness of my decision. And then without any provocation my body was assaulted, not by a thief but by the latitude. Sweat glands I didn’t know I had went into overdrive and at that moment it hit me that I really was now on my own.

      Long story short, I fell in love with the country, the people, and the food. And thank God English is a second language on Luzon. I saw and experienced things I almost certainly would have missed had I not taken that chance to explore, discover, and live in a place I would have never considered before.

      But that was only the beginning. A little over a year later I found myself married to a beautiful Filipina and accepted by her family as if I was the kid next door. After the Philippines we moved to Hawaii, then Germany, and back to the US where I landed a job working on construction of the Space Shuttle Launch Complex at Vandenberg AFB.

      And then going full-circle and not too long after Challenger exploded, we went back to the Philippines where the job was violently and rudely terminated when Mt. Pinatubo decided to pop its cork, effectively sealing the deal to end US military bases there. My only regret is that I never had a chance to goodby to Filipino friends and co-workers because of the evacuation.

      Along the way we had two children, first a girl, then a boy, and my in-laws LEGALLY immigrated to US and lived with us for several years; an experience I will never regret.

      In total, I lived in the Philippines for over 7 years and wouldn’t trade it for anything and that represents the genesis of my story to you.

      All in all, I think I (the joker) was dealt a pretty good hand, BUT had I not taken that risk, the initiative, to go somewhere and do something wild and different, I sincerely believe I’d still be in sunny California oblivious to what I missed except the lingering doubt of what could have been.

      You have no idea what doors will open for you on your trip to the RMs or where they will lead, but enjoy the ride and the beauty the region offers. I sincerely hope you have a great time and find that dog-gone chest.

      Sorry for the novel. Hope you enjoyed it though.


  30. “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve. ”

    Forrest Fenn is quoted to have made this statement. Something struck me today regarding the poem wording, and it came up independently of the above Fenn quote. Why is it that he only refers to “his” treasure and to where “he” wants to be buried or what is special to “him”? What about his beloved wife Peggy or other close family members? Why is it he is so selfish in this final wish? Why is it that close family are apparently excluded from their own burial or memorial desires or involvement in the whole secret? Why did Fenn turn toward an apparently selfish perspective late in his life? (I know cancer could be involved, but that is not the whole answer in my opinion).

    I don’t know how this could lead to a winning solve, but it bothers me nevertheless. I have a possible explanation for why he wrote the way he did. Does he have something to hide or be ashamed of? Just asking.


    • Wow, McKendree. I wish I knew what else to say about this post, but somehow find myself speechless.

      • I believe his original “plan” to die on the chest was never going to happen. It’s part of the 15/85%. It’s likely a meaningful hint as to the treasure’s location, though. Remember, his father committed suicide with terminal cancer, but he died at home. I can’t see Forrest killing himself without Peggy nearby; just never have been able to.

        • Regardless of plans, it’s what he expressed in words that matter IMO. It’s no so much what plans might be carried out regarding suicide, but rather what Forrest stated regarding being alone.

    • McK,
      You may as well be asking if a cup with 50% water half empty of half full? There is no correct answer except how you view it. The events that shaped you see it as selfish, my events see it as brave. Is it not equally selfish of his family to have him at their side vs him going off to a spot that he would be peaceful at?
      This isnt something to worry over.

      • I am not so much worried over an absolute answer to or implications of this question but wondering if Forrest planted this doubt for some other reason.

    • McKendree, You might be correct. However, you asked why did he refer to it as “his” treasure, where “he” wants to be buried, and what is special to “him”, plus, Why did Fenn turn toward an apparently selfish perspective late in his life?

      This was his plan in 1988 or the following couple years when he was 58 yrs old. He wanted to die on his own terms, like his father who committed suicide due to terminal pancreatic cancer several years earlier. When he hid the treasure chest in 2009/2010, he no longer planned to die there but still needed to use the same, or almost the same, poem, taking 15 years or whatever to get it “right.”

      Regarding his special place, he had already chosen that place by 1988. What makes you think it isn’t a special place BECAUSE of Peggy!

      And lastly, you are probably right about Fenn hiding the chest and selfishly creating the thrill of the chase late in his life. There were times in their home when I asked Peggy if I could photograph her. She always respectfully replied no thanks, explaining that The Chase is Forrest’s “thing”, not hers. There were only a few times I was able to chat with her at length, which was unfortunate because she was funny and witty. She definitely held her own with Forrest…

      Are you also asking why Forrest can’t share the secret location of his treasure chest with his family, since it was his “special place” and where he wanted to die when he had cancer? If that is your question, he was wise enough to know at the onset no one living can know, for their own safety.

      A journalist who had just interviewed Forrest at his home with family around told me the following day (when he was interviewing me) that he was sure Forrest had told his daughter Kelly where the chest is hidden. I told him “no way in Hell did Forrest tell ANYONE!” The next time I saw Kelly, I relayed that conversation to her. She was aghast and said he (Forrest) would never burden her (or any other family members) with that information.

      As a family member, knowing the exact location could be a death sentence with all the nut jobs, psychopaths, crazy mothers, etc looming in the dark… remember the nut case who came after Fenn’s granddaughter. And he’s just the tip of the iceberg, probably.

      I apologize for my rant if I mis-interpreted what you are asking

      • Great post Cynthia.

        But what about the finder who will know the location? The only way for the finder to remain safe, it would seem, would be to remain anonymous then. Sage decision, imo.

        • I assume the finder will take the treasure chest with them. Game over! A family member or anyone else knowing where the treasure chest is located before it is found could be kidnapped and “made” to go to the treasure. Forrest has mentioned the death threats he’s received in the past. You know, the guy who told him tell me where the treasure is or I’m going to kill you (paraphrased.)

          • IMO ONLY please don’t fret if you don’t agree.
            Hi Cynthia pDenver Twingem ,

            I must chime in here.

            See I can not let Forrest be called selfish .
            That is un true. ” Your thoughts are yours so you are unto your self , there fore you only have to please your self. ”
            ” What good are your friends if you cant use them ?”

            I think he tied a fly for certain fish , and we bite at it. But only one fish can grab the hook .

            Now , I tracked him to Denver. And my story goes Peggy lead the charge to his full recovery . and turned his butt around .
            Thats what I have . How , not telling .

            If you answer these questions as yes , then I would ask all to reconsider , because you have denoted you are selfish .

            Not saying any of you are.
            But , why is it then you search ?
            Has anyone even questioned this ?

            Imagination is the key not the tool .
            To imagine ones self as. Is the definition .
            Okay so I did.

            You can conform this with Fenn and my emails to him long before he wrote the
            new book that I had tracked him there.
            I tracked him to the Denver Museum , I told searcher that and I was accused of spreading rumors. Well I wonder what they felt when the new book came out and saw the same info I described to them ?

            It don’t matter . Selfish no . Not at all .
            Nor do I think he has a selfish bone in his body . He has gone far out of his way for me personally . He paid for my hotel room and stay for three days down there.
            He dignity have to . But he made my wife take the three hundred bucks he had on him while I was in his home with Cynthia .

            Now I cant say a lot , I have all ready said to much in the blogs of what I do and how I solve the clues.
            There is no need to share that .
            I should have never said anything at all .
            But , I cant help it sometimes.

            Another point ” Who ever finds it will not be able to keep it quite”
            So if the person who finds “it”
            cant be quite then how do you expect to be quite if you found it ?

            Now I have found so many interesting things in the books and have shared some with searchers. I will not any longer.
            Well share that is . I have said all I needed
            to kind of tell my story .

            ” Who would imagine a coincidence like that could happen ?”

            Not could would. Specific to only one.
            That is a mystery to me at this time.
            All his other questions I have answered .
            More then 19 years asleep . Well I got that . ” I tied three strings a day for a year” Yep got that one nailed down .
            its really 19.33 years and the date is 4-9-1969 , a very special day to me.
            I have mirrored the entire story . I wont say how many mirrors. Ah what the heck , three times so far.

            I will say the book is not about him.
            I wont say , you must re read it.
            Middle of page 15 how else can anyone write a book.

            AND one very important last thing.
            NUT JOBS>>>>>>>>>>> n
            Well if you didn’t know , most folks think all of us who search are just that .
            I was in a museum and over herd a person call me a nut for even looking at things related to the search . She said another Fenn nut bag. Well I am no nut for sure. I may think out side the box but I have never forgot where the middle is.

            I would love to share more. I actually have and have said very specific things to both Dal and Cynthia about a lot of stuff in the new book . I showed Cynthia 9 clues in the two trips at the last Fenn Boree .
            I posed it as a question . But showed her only no one else two trips from my car and it was done in a day . Cynthia – I am still working on that .

            I am looking at information . Only information . That is a hard thing to do in this chase and I think a lot can agree with .

            To be really clear of whom I am .
            I have searched for 5 years. I was completely disabled by a car accident that changed me forever . I lost 60 percent of the muscle mass in my left arm . I have a harsh fusion in my neck
            which is a cadaver bone fused into mine and then a plate installed with four screws. I have 5 pins and locks in my left arm , and I was told I may be in a wheel chair for the rest of my life.
            A real eye opener.
            I have made over 100 stops alone the way from Montana to New Mexico . I have searched in places where I have found his camp sites as he was young and found Grappett Soda cans in those areas as well as Orange Grapette cans .
            I have shown them off to a select few.
            Found a red hankie where it should had been , but I believe a searcher put that there under some grass.
            The story line I follow is not his , but yet it is, thats where I must leave you to your thoughts.
            I found Fenn and the Leon only by connection of names and places and events. But not his. That is why I can not tell how The Leon ( Deleon) found Proctor.
            I know this.
            But I will add – I told many people before the book I knew where in Denver he was when He parked his car and made two trips.

            That I can provide to Dal only if he wants the email to Fenn by me before he wrote the book and the tract I was on that lead me there . Nad more proof is I told Cynthia It was not raining in Santa Fe ,
            it was snowing . Remember I showed you the map? Long before the book .
            I busted him in the Bell Tolls thing. Heck I catch him all the dang time. Now I am working on the quarry not the chase.

            Boy do I want to share a lot more , unfortunately at this time I can not .
            I hope you all can understand .
            Would you say much ? I think not.
            I have been getting a lot of questions lately about the book and the stories.
            All because I found ” Wise and found the Blaze” that is how I got to Denver.
            So I leave you with this. The stories -all though match in his life in ttotc , they are not to be confused as his.

            He said it was a unauthorized auto biography . This is the truth .
            ISBN is a clue 978 fan fiction , and the book and printing follow the rules.

            Take care Cynthia miss you hun. Dal Sir my best to you . Dal is one of the best man I have met in my life. I only wrote this to show how unselfish Fenn really is.
            He is who I would want to be like if I had to do it over.

            “Efforts worth the cold” –
            Silence in history .,

            Take care all , we only have one chance upon the stage , we must try and please all who come to watch . My goal is to share real love and human kindness to all , the world if possible.
            Everyone of you who search are a treasure and never forget that .
            You all are very dear and very special in every way . That is the fish he is trying to catch .

            Love peace and life.

            Let me know when you get done with that email Cynthia . Let me know your thoughts I shared a lot with you .” Sure thenames and dates and places and schools are different , but other then that it is my very own story line”

            I though ti’d write that book my self

            Mike and Heather

      • You make a great point Cynthia regarding the nutters. The finder(s) would be wise not to divulge their identities. Yes, let it be known that it has been found but don’t invite the crazies to your doorstep…

    • McKendree

      I believe this is a valid line of thinking. I don’t know where it leads us, but it is very interesting. Forrest moved to Santa Fe in 1972 after the AF, and then began building his business. He did very well, but in 1988 he got cancer and the prognosis was grim, 1 to 3 years to live. So then he hatched his plan to leave his trove of treasure, and possibly take the bottle of pills and expire at that location. But think of this: After this time, another 22 years went by, and he got cured from the cancer. Finally in 2010 (presumed) he hides the TC in his special location, and subsequently releases his new book TTOTC.

      A lot of time went by between the cancer diagnosis and the hiding of the TC. He has said he spent 15 years writing the poem, and as we learned from Preston, he tweaked it and changed it in the early 90s. Anyway, there is something that just doesn’t add up for me. Like you, I am wondering if there is another way of looking at the whole thing that most of us have not considered.

      Your point, “What about his beloved wife Peggy or other close family members?” Is valid when considering his entire story. So, I have no conclusions yet, but I am looking at this as a kind of “cold case” to solve after the fact with many things that seem odd, including the time line.


  31. mac- I believe that the entire chase is a reflection of his family. That is his mother, father, sister, brother. Me in the middle as it were.
    I have children, grandchildren, wives, exwives, and I love them all(even ex wives), but as I age my mind goes back into the past, especially with the selfish decisions of youth. I feel (i know) that I disappointed my mom, father, and my sister in many ways and there is no way now, to make it up to them.
    I believe f suffers from the same agony’s. His mom died in a trailer park in Mt., his brother in a diving accident in Mexico, his dad from cancer. His sister after a divorce. In all of this he was a fat cat millionaire, and couldn’t /didn’t provide much help. I think that this weighs on his soul and may be the true impetus for the chase.
    His daughters, wife, grandchildren are well provided for, so what/why should they be involved in the chase?
    maybe i’m way off, but that’s what I think.

    • Eloquently stated. I have a similar story from my family past. However, I am referring to the curious use of the first person in Fenn’s poem, rather than alternative third person or neutral references. Yes, I could go in alone without my spouse’s knowledge or approval, but in my case this would raise a serious issue with trust. So what is he really trying to say?

    • Boy Emmet, when he said imagination is more important than knowledge I don’t think he meant when it comes to judging others.

    • Boy, Emmet, when he said imagination is more important than knowledge I don’t think he meant when it comes to judging others.

  32. Regarding Tea with Olga:

    red tea with FF
    black tea with oreos., with lawyer and FF
    green tea with her father.

    What is everyone’s thoughts regarding these colors?

    • Hi sean: Many possibilities to choose from. Colors on a roulette wheel. Most of the colors on a dartboard. For someone like Forrest running a business: in the red (negative), in the black (positive), green (at peace?).

        • Good morning, Lugnutz. I’ll echo what others have said here: the key words in that Forrest quote are “aid the searcher,” not “did not place hints deliberately.” IMO, there are hints, and they are deliberate. But they don’t “aid” the searcher because they don’t tell him/her anything they haven’t already figured out on their own, or at least strongly suspected.

          The tea colors don’t help me one iota, and I can’t see how they would help anyone else since those colors can be found in all four states. That being said, you must agree that those are odd details that “catch up in your brain” when reading the story. They are “free variables” that Forrest could easily have inserted, or altered from what the tea colors actually were — assuming the two of them drank tea at all.

          Guilty as charged in thinking that all three memoirs, Scrapbooks, Vignettes, Mysterious Writings Q&A’s, etc. are “chock full” of hints.
          Not clues, *hints*. Clues would help you get closer to the treasure chest location, and I’m not saying that at all. That’s not the purpose of the hints, in my opinion. I think Forrest has fun dropping hints in written form whenever he gets the chance.

          • I am willing to bet that a lot of details that “catch up in your brain” added by FF are for fun and because he knows searchers are paying close attention to every word. There seem to be way to many details using numbers, names, misspellings, ect. for them to all be related to the chase IMO.

      • Hi Lugnutz: I think the one thing those tea colors probably do ~not~ represent are the colors of tea (if any!) that he and Olga actually drank. No imagination in that. Sometimes a cigar is not a cigar.

        • Zap –

          I don’t mean to sound like a broken record but the man said he did not place hunts deliberately to aid the searcher.

          If, in that story, the tea colors represent hints or clues that seems deliberate.

          He also say there are a few clues sprinkled throughout the pages of the book. If the tea colors are hints/clues they take of real estate in your neighborhood of few clues.

          He used the colors of tea. Do you think he .are up the story of drinking tea in order to be able to hint at Black Red Green?

          I know you also think the description of Olgas ashes leaving the plane is a clue.

          You seem to believe in the opposite of what Fenn says. You seem to believe the book is absolutely chock-o-full with clues.

          Do you then believe that Fenns statements about hints/clues are just more clues in and of themselves?

          Inquiring mimes wanna know.

          • He did not place hints deliberately to aid the searcher.

            That doesnt mean he didnt deliberately place hints. He admits he did, hence sprinkled in the stories. So he knew there is hints placed within.
            To aid the seeker would be waving a flag, over hear, check this out.
            So is there anything about the tea colors that screams hey seeker, look at this? Or is it an innocent story that is sprinkled with hints?

            A mime is a terrible thing to waste.

    • Hi sean: Blog seems to be getting hit hard today — many failed attempts to open pages or post. For the tea colors as hints, many possibilities to choose from. Colors on a roulette wheel. Most of the colors on a dartboard. For someone like Forrest running a business: in the red (negative), in the black (positive), green (at peace?). I once considered flag colors, but didn’t come up with anything that looked promising. I’m sure others here have some great ideas.

    • (Sorry, All, for the mostly duplicate post — got a “Failed Connection” message on the first post attempt, but apparently it went through anyway.)

      • wait a minute sean, i had a revelation. you only ask about the three colors of tea but this chapter Tea with Olga in fact mentions all seven colors of the rainbow…

        red- red tea
        orange- bright and sunny day
        yellow- chamisa
        green- green tea
        blue- relentless feelings of sadness
        purple- mountain laurels
        pink- bubble gum

        those are the seven colors of the rainbow visible to the human eye, although all colors from black to white (oreo’s) are there, unseen.

        the bronze box of gold will be at the end of a (his) rainbow.

        this chapter was written to explain what the end of a rainbow is.

        i think.

          • thank you as well twingem. i have learned a flew epidemic is sweeping the nation. take my advice twingem, dont try to fly. you are much safer on the ground. well, that is as long as no one is chasing you with a club.

  33. Seems like in the Rockies there are lots of features with colors in their names….rivers, mountains, hills. I match this chapter in TTOTC with the line “I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak”

    Just trying to jive the two together.

  34. A shameless commercial message:
    Keri and her husband are searchers and contributors to this blog and others in their hunt for the chest.

    Keri designs tee shirts and thought she’d make a stab at some deigns for her comrades…
    Take a peek…see if there is anything that matches your sense of style…


  35. Pinatubocharlie,

    Wow that was some story, I am glad you told ma about it and I’m really happy for you that things turned out great.

    Sometimes things work out by taking a chance or they may not.

    It’s one of these things in life if an opportunity arises do you take it or do you not take it.

    We will all face this at some point in our lives, therefore it’s up to each individual to make up his/her mind up.

    I’m a great believer in, if a situation arises that could improve your life from your current situation then I would go for it every time.

    If it doesn’t work out then I would deal with it at the time.

    I would rather find out by taking a chance, and not having to keep thinking about what if, what if.

    So once again great story and the best of luck to you and your family on the chase.

    Ronnie the Scot

    • All of this reminds me of “Life is a game of poker, Happiness is the pot. Fate deals you four cards and a joker, And you play whether you like it or not.” TTOTC page 5.

      That pretty much says it all with the immediate posts above. 🙂

      • From my ‘Monthly Planner’ at work:

        You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take. -Wayne Gretzky
        I’m not a big hockey fan, but then you don’t need to be…to get the score from the words.

        • Obstacles are things we see when we take our mind off our goals
          ~ Zig Zigglar

          from my planner at work.

      • The Statement really is fate deals five cards and a Joker not four. Again another miss comment by f.

        So line up the poem the stanzas are the cards

        add the amount of words from right to left .

        Add them till you get one number per card

        and you have just played poker with f.

        That may be how he won the bracelet,

        and could be the very had that won .

        I call it ” The Poker Solve ”

        Have fun , but where is the Joker?


  36. Could “look quickly down” mean “gander”?

    Gander means ” a quick look”

    Since the direction is down, doesn’t this imply that we will be looking down from the blaze?

    Take it one step further (but this would not be simplicity), could the blaze be where warm waters halt?

    In the WWWH section I posted a theory that WWWH is Gannett peak, the canyon down is the Grand Canyon (the Green River takes waters that are halted (freeze) in the canyon down).

    Now suppose we are not to go south, but instead north. It could be, after all north of the CD is “The Shoshone National Forest”, no place for the meek from north of Gannett peak? Could Gannett Peak be the blaze?

    Anyway, not to discuss WWWH or the blaze here, since there are forums for that on this site already. The question is maybe look quickly down means to “gander” from that location to know what creek/river we should follow to get to the chest.

    Note: (this is the special knowledge part): Gannett might be refering to Gannet, which is a sea bird. The word Gannet (and Gannett) is derived from Old English ganot “strong or masculine”, which is based on the same root word for “gander”. So before we tarry scant on down from Gannett, we need to gander down and towards the north?

    I am not suggesting that we need to climb 13,000 feet, of course not. We use GE and maps. If we are in the general area, you will have no problem noticing Gannett peak. Since the waters to the canyon down (Grand) leave south, we look north because that is where no place for the meek might be.

    Another step that also requires a bit of easy research is… Assume for the moment that “no place for the meek” has borders. Well the Wind River Reservation (brave) borders this forest. What else happened to that reservation over the last 200 years? They shrank, multiple times due to treaties. Could ever drawing nigh hint at the borders of that reservation within the national forest? Maybe.

    The main though in this thread is based on the word GANDER. Since Gander is not always used when discussing elevation (gander over yonder), perhaps “look quickly down” means gander over towards the reservation within no place for the meek, which is north of there (and also down) and can be seen from this vantage point (if you were to climb Gannett Peak).

    In any case, “GANDER” has look quickly in its definition. It is also slang that Forrest and any Texan might use.

    • Ronnie mcScottie,

      A few more cents to add to your collection:

      Since you’re searching alone, some notification to
      someone or some where is imperative, IMO. You know
      where you will be “putting in” with your sedan to start
      your BOTG search so you could give those coordinates
      to the closest sheriff station with instructions to start
      a search for you if you don’t check back in by a set time
      that night after you should have reached a phone. If
      your car is still there you’re in trouble, if not you’re OK.
      (They wouldn’t search at night in the woods I’m sure.)
      Checking in with the forest service is of limited value
      as they will only have regular business hours. The
      personal locator / tracking devices such as SPOT
      ( http://www.findmespot.com ) can be a literal life saver and
      are pricey but you may be able to rent one.

      You have been cautioned by many here about potential
      dangers such as bears and snow and rattlesnakes but there is another danger I should warn
      you about: we all drive on the wrong side…err I mean
      right side of the road here. In case you get sleepy on
      your drive from the airport it could be a problem! Also,
      ticks are a real concern so take proper precautions.

      Bear spray comes in basically 2 sizes I think. A full
      discharge is only about seven seconds or so for one
      size; there are youtube videos of its usage. I recom-
      mend seeing them if you plan to be in bear country and
      carry bear spray. Also, an air horn such as WOLO
      Handy Horn or Bear Horn brand are relatively cheap.
      They’re basically a can of refrigerant with a plastic
      air horn (won’t work below 30 F). 116 db can be very
      effective against a wrong way bear it is claimed.

      You have already determined your search location
      but fwiw I find http://www.topozone to be a very “good map”
      and it’s free. They show detail almost down to
      individual cow pies.

      You will have such limited time and resources / gear
      that you can bring with you I would assume, such as:
      boots, shovel, rain gear, backpack, knife, different
      outdoor clothing options, etc. that I hope you won’t
      be under-equipped. If you put out the word to the
      community here that you are coming into whatever
      airport it is perhaps a local searcher could volunteer
      to collect and or loan such items to you without
      you having to divulge your search destination? If
      you need local assistance to do any chores for you
      here, such as shopping for items you’ll need, there
      are apps such as task rabbit that might be helpful.
      The Rockies are pretty big and the chest is only
      10 / 11? inches square so I don’t think divulging your
      airport will cause a stampede to your search spot,
      should you decide to do it.

      Best of luck to you: I wish you had more time on the
      ground once here, but you got the itch…you gotta
      scratch it, yes sir.

      D. Crockett (Crockatt over your way, eh?)

      • D.Crockett,

        Many thanks for your good wishes and your advice.

        I am listening and taking everything on board that all you searchers are telling me.

        I obviously don’t know much about the dangers in the Rockies as I have never been, but I will be as prepared as I can be.

        According to my solve everything that Forrest has said seems to be true.

        Based on this information from Forrest, about the T.C not being in a dangerous place I also believe that to be true.

        Many thanks once again.

        Ronnie the Scot

  37. In an attempt to get the blog unclogged I just rebooted the server.

    Last night when I also rebooted, things improved, but only for awhile.

    I note that we have seen an uptick in attempted break-ins on the blog the last couple of days and that generally slows down access to humans while the hacker bots use up all the available connections…that also may be part of the slow down problem.
    These attempted break-ins seem to be cyclic. They come about every six months or so and last a day or two and then they move on.
    None have been successful…except that they hog all the connectivity and bog things down…
    But there is nothing here to steal except emails…we do not have any financial info or personal info for anyone on the blog…

  38. Here are two tools to help simplify the poem. They don’t do a great job, BUT they might help trigger your thought process since it shows everything up front.

    Place the poem in here then click simplify:

    Also try this one:

    That last tool also has options to “spin” an article, or chage it to avoid plaigerization (sp?). Again, the tools aren’t great and you can do the same thing with a thesaurous, but since these tools show the entire result it might be helpful.

    I wish it would let me pick the words to translate though.

    — Below is one translation, kind of funny!

    As I have gone alone in there and with my things of value, money well-marked, I can keep my secret where, And small sign (of) of good qualities new and old.

    Begin it where warm waters freeze and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown.

    From there its no region for the timid, the end is ever moving near; Therell be no give blows to the backside up your small river, just weighty amounts and water high.

    If you have been wise and found the bright flame, look quickly down, your purpose to terminate, but tarry little with strange thing on long look, just take the chest and go in peace.

    So why is it that I must go and let go of my store for all to look for? The answers I already have knowledge of, I have done it tired, and now I am not strong.

    So hear me all and give attention to good, your attempt will value the cold. If you are without fear and in the wood I give you right to property to the gold.

  39. ‘…your effort will be worth the cold.’
    Tonight’s low in my search area is 1°. Brrrrrrrr!!! ❄

  40. If all the information needed to find the chest, is in the poem. I would think that the poem must tell us the correct WWWH. I think that would be the best question to ask FF.

    • Disagree, the poem puts an “X” on the map. It does not solve wwwh, IMO.

      The almost best question to ask f would be if he followed all 9 clues in both trips. He wouldn’t answer that I’m thinking.

      • Hi charlie, Puting an X on the map, is inline with what I’m thinking. The X would be something tangible, so I would think that the X, can’t be the result of a guess, but would have to be derived from something equally tangible in the poem, that is also not a guess. JMO

        • yup, agree with that. For lack of a better term, “reverse engineering” is what comes to mind. Seeker commented on this a long time ago, that maybe this is seen from the end point coming towards the beginning. I think, kind of. The poem giving the “X”, knowing there is one way in, and that all 9 clues will be followed in order, leads to the thought that the poem gives the “X” and you reverse engineer to see where to start, hence needing the map. Guessing will be out of the question. Also leads to the possibility that the all the CLUES cannot be solved, but the spot you need to go to can be. You get your starting point, follow the path to the spot the poem gave you, along the way understand what HE is referring to as clues, to the chest. That’s why I was saying that the one possibility that searchers have not considered is the fact that all the clues cannot be solved. trying to solve clues is the worst thing someone can do. We only know of two of them, how could we, right?

          Your opinion is valid, and should turn in your head. It will help see things differently. He keeps saying two trips, and sense we should be walking in his shoes, we to will need two trips. Weight and all aside, maybe there is a deeper meaning to his comment. It makes sense. There is always the chance someone can find first time out, luck or what have you, but not very likely. someone could go right to the spot, so the spot must be short of the last clue. There is something one must do to find the chest. Some ATF’s:

          Do expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?

          No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.

          The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f

          You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
          No I don’t madam, sorry. f

          “…..study the clues in the book and thread a tract through the wiles of nature and circumstance to the treasure. If you can find it, you can have it. I warned the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

          Forrest Fenn on February 18, 2016 at 2:02 pm said:
          Spoon, “If person had the correct GPS coordinates they could find the chest.” Physics says this has to be true. How can it not be? The key word here is “correct.”

          A searcher who guesses through life is destined to carry a thin wallet.f

          Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f

          Of course, there are enough ATF’s that could prove the flip side, lol, typical…

          • I believe reserve engineering the poem would be practically impossible. If working the poem in the forward sequence has eluded searchers for so long, certainly reverse engineering would be even more difficult. IMO

          • Yes, good point. The reverse engineering idea may be along the lines of a mathematical approach. Though FF felt like an architect writing the poem. How does one reverse architect? With an eraser? Lol. I dunno but Don Cherry’s side kick is into reverse engineering the poem. IMO.

          • covert, not work the poem in reverse. Don’t see that. Finding a spot from the poem, reverse eng. the path. Like “X” on a map and going to it. Starts somewhere, ends at the “X”.

  41. Okay guy’s,

    I’m going to give you in my opinion a very important clue which fits nicely in to my solve.

    I wasn’t going too, however some of you guy’s have spent a lot of time and money in your searches.

    You can laugh at it, or you can take it on board and study it.

    I’m not going to make it easy, but it is solvable.

    If you can figure it out, it will take you to my search area.

    Forrest has spoken about reverse engineering.

    ………….. H.O.B………….H.O.B…………
    1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

    9, 8, 7, 6, 5, 4, 3, 2, 1

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Sorry Ronnie, but answering a riddle with another more complex and obscure riddle helps no one.

    • **** Ronnie wrote – “If you can figure it out, it will take you to my search area.” ****

      Before I take this on, remind me again what you’ve hidden in your search area?


    • Hi Ronnie…

      I understand that . =)

      I have been on 100 trips.

      I like it .

      But you have a lot of work to do .

      Yes I think the same it is called deductive reasoning.

      And Sir, that is how Steven Hawkins thinks.

      Keep going . But first you need to see the words as they are . Objects.

      This is very common and is not complex thinking .

      Matter of fact all humans do it. Basic is A+B=c

      Simple logic . Thought to ten year olds.

      Keep searching , never leave anything unturned . Nothing

      is to small to learn . And remember f always wanted to know what every one didn’t.

      Good luck my friend , remember

      I by definition is the negative sq root of 1 .

      So don’t be a square =)

      Love peace and Life


      • Mike,

        I like your comment;

        I’ve always said that the person that solves Fenns poem will be someone that doesn’t necessarily have the same I.Q

        But someone who thinks like him, I’m not the smartest guy on the planet, but I’m not the stupidest either.

        What I am trying to do is think the way he thinks.

        Good luck in your search.

        Ronnie the Scot

        • Ronnie the Scot

          Hey friend, I have noted that you are very enthusiastic about the search area you have identified. I have been there, and in fact, I am still there. So I understand your excitement.

          I wanted to ask if you are coming this summer, in 2018? Also, I wanted to ask if you would reveal just one aspect of your area. Is it on Reservation land, National Park land, private property or BLM (public) land?

          Good fortune to you sir!


          • Franklin,

            Yes I am very enthusiastic about my search.

            I am only interested
            in one search area and one solve.

            I have studied my solve over and over for nearly a year and everything in my opinion fits in with the poem.

            The only thing for me to do now is to put BOTG.

            Yes I will be visiting your beautiful country for 7 days.

            I am not prepared to divulge my search area.

            However what I will say is that it will take me 2 days to get to my area, I will have 3 days to put my solve to the test, before I come home again.

            My previous comment regarding reverse engineering, if you can figure that out will take you to my search area.

            Franklin, my previous comment on reverse engineering is not hard to solve, if you use a little bit of imagination.

            Ronnie the Scot

      • So nothing
        is to small to learn and your destination is small, but its location is huge???

        I need some more coffee 🙂

  42. FYI-
    I am going to reboot the server at 9:57am Pacific Time…or 5 mins from now.
    Blog is still cranky..
    Optimized the blog last night…

    • I wonder if the intent is just to bot information extraction from within the chase collective; mining for algorithm purposes towards a solve? Seems to be the only value of the purpose. IMO . Clever but not intelligent way of it, if so. IMO.

    • I’m guessing that some linguistics-challenged Russian contractor has mistranslated ‘Dal’ as ‘Dem’, ‘Neitzel’ as ‘National’ and ‘com’ as ‘Committee’, and is misguidingly attempting to hack the DNC server in advance of the 2018 mid-term elections.

      Then again, I wear a tin foil hat at home…

      • The rumors I’ve heard are that they’ve increased the strength of the mind control rays. Tin foil might no longer be enough. Just FYI, they’re now suggesting wearing a 1T coil on your head to deflect everything. The side effects are moderate disorientation, occasional memory loss and pronounced logorrhea. In the larger scheme of things it’s a small price to pay for having complete protection from a neural hack.

      • Wy-
        Are you kidding. Those are the upgrades…from the Commodore64s I removed from service last year.

        Well the attempted break-in’s continue but seem to have slowed down.
        I added some storage…
        I optimized the database…
        I backed up everything…
        I rebooted the server.
        I cleaned out the closet.
        That’s all I know how to do…
        Let’s see what happens next…

        • I’ll send you a TRS-80 with the 16K RAM upgrade for you to use as your next generation server (I did own one of these back in the day). Kidding aside, thanks for keeping the blog running well.

          • No-no, JW, not a TRASH-80. What Dal needs for emergency backup is an IMSAI 8080. Should be quite unhackable by contemporary technology. 😉

        • Keep up the great computer suggestions guys.. I’m taking notes and filing them in the same place as all your great ideas about how to find the chest 🙂

  43. I believe there’s a bit more to it besides just the nine clues. There’s also a word that is key, as well as a key word. Here are the first four clues, as I see them. The rest is for me to know and you to find out.
    1. Begin it where warm waters halt, and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.
    2. Put in below the home of Brown.
    3. From there it’s no place for the meek, the end is ever drawing nigh;
    4.There’ll be no paddle up your Creek, just heavy loads and water high

    • MichealD,
      I think Forrest said the 1st clue is Where Warm Waters Halt.
      Not WWWH and take it in the canyon down etc….

      Don’t take my word for it though. Go with what you believe.
      He could have misspoken again.

    • Hi Mike


      That may be , but when do you know anyone to start reading in the middle of a page?

      When you do a data grab , you start from the begging.

      Not the word begin .

      I do not think the first physical clue “wwwh”

      Can be found unless you can answer

      ” As I have gone alone in there ”
      and with ” My treasures bold”
      The place ” I can keep my secret where”
      and ” hint of riches new and old.”

      One thing I know

      Riches is the word Richie –

      So a place secret is a New Richie and a Old Richie.

      I know , I wont tell …..

      That sentence is another reason

      He was in Denver with his lock box.

      Good luck

      remember you are the treasure.

      Love , Peace and Life


      • I agree. The WWH clue is where you START. But in order to locate WWH correctly, since they halt many places in the rocky mtns, you MUST solve Stanza one…THEN you can begin at WWH.

  44. This comment is a plug for the movie Hostiles, as well as the beautiful scenery in parts of New Mexico, and to Forrest Fenn and his chase. Much of the movie was shot in northern NM, some at Ghost Ranch near Abiquiu which will be recognizable to anyone who has ever searched or hiked around Chimney Rock. The end of 2015/beginning of 2016, I made about 10 trips to this area to search for a guy from Washington State who went by the blog name Blazed. I never had clues that fit this area, but agreed to search for him and searched his landscape formations that he nicknamed The-Hole-in-the-Pig’s Ear, the Shadowman, the Elephant Tusks, and the Elephant Feet. Molly and I had many a splendid day in this neck of the woods and never regretted any of those trips, despite it being a search for someone else. Some of the movie was also shot in a forrest of tall pine trees… not sure of the exact spot but it sure looked familiar. For 2 hours and 15 minutes, I found myself looking for Fenn’s treasure and thinking about all the good hidey spots here and there. Is it just me, or do other searchers find themselves looking around the background when movies have been shot in an area where FF might have stashed the loot?

    Blazed, if you still read the blogs, please post a hello… I’m sorry we never met but the searches I made for you and the gorgeous scenery in those places created a bond that I will never forget! cynthia

    • @Cynthia you should be aware that there are some negative text message images being spread around with your name all over it. Just thought you ought to know.

      • Thanks for letting me know. Are they negative for everyone else but positive for me… like I found Fenn’s treasure chest?? I wish. Ha Ha! At my age, I don’t care what the haters say. Haters will always hate… just the way it is. But thanks for looking out for me!

        • Cynthia , Kill m’ with kindness. Sounds like a close minded YTrump. As for movies, “The Blues Brothers” . Not that it was in N.M. , but the church scene with the ray of sunlight. There was a time , “2013” “?”… Forrest asked, “How deep is a hole” ? I asked ,”How steep is a pole”, referring to a “Steep-pole Chase” . My idea was to find a certain spot , with a stick that is a certain height, on a certain date , “March 21st” , and it “casts” a shadow to the chest.
          And you think my new ideas are out there? Ya…..the haters know me too !

          • Hey, C-attle, I love your Steeple Pole Chase idea but my all time favorite of yours is Flashlight means Ash Flight which means Tea with Olga and FF scattering her ashes on Taos Mountain.

            Let the haters hate… our hearts are filled with good intentions and we have each other. How many more days until we can treasure hunt? Yikes… I can’t wait for summer!

  45. Thought you are filipino when i read your posts because of Pinatubo. I grew up in the Philippines , now in sunny San Diego. Glad you like the country where i was born.

    Back to the chase. Twice i had BOTG along the Rio Grande before ff said TC was not there. Planning to go again this summer to a much farther solve site. This will be my last one. This chase better halt with a marvel gaze.

    There is scant chance wifey will go along for a fourth ‘not-been-wise’ chase.

  46. I don’t know if this is an odd or an end, and likely has been discussed before and I missed it. But would be curious y’all’s thoughts about the punctuation or sentence structure in the Poem; missing or extra punctuation; periods or commas used interchangeably. Is it just poetic license, or is there helpful quidance hidden there?

  47. So many smarty hardworking searchers here. Learning so much. We all! Many years. Hard to think those “Russians” are at it again! Not my words but another chaser….lol….

  48. Randawg and J. A Kraven,

    My most recent comment on reverse engineering.

    Forrest said it’s possible to have reverse engineering from H.O.B, which I agree with 100%, it fits in perfectly with my solve.

    It is not complicated.

    You don’t have to be a rocket scientist to figure it out, I’m certainly no rocket scientist, far from it.

    J.A Kraven, I have not hidden anything in my search area, but I am hoping that Forrest has hidden the T.C within the search area.

    Ronnie the Scot

  49. I’m
    Not getting any email updates on anything does anyone know how I can fix it I’ve subscribed to everything I use too get updates

    • DG-
      have you checked your trash and/or spam folders…sometimes email settings decide that anything from WordPress looks like junk…

  50. On Odds n Ends back on 1/15, John posted a portion of Forrest’s quote to the Huffington Post regarding what he computed as his allotted portion of U.S. Public Lands by dividing the public acreage by the U.S. population. He used 654,885,389 acres and a population of 313,914,040 and came up with “exactly 2.086 acres.” (Close enough — 2.08619…)

    But then things get interesting:

    “Now, what if I wanted to secret a can of Dr. Pepper under a rock in the cooling waters of a rivulet somewhere in my allotted public acreage? If I did, I would not need to use all of my area, I would need just 7.5 fluid ounces and 90 calories of space. And I would still have about 2.08555 acres remaining.”

    Lots of hiccups in these three sentences. The first is a minor nit, but it is one that is repeated every time Forrest mentions Dr Pepper. You see, there is no period in Dr Pepper. Could be that he just isn’t aware of it. I’ll come back to that, but 7.5 fluid ounces and 90 calories are both bogus figures. Dr Pepper, whether in cans or bottles, does not come in a 7.5-ounce size. Most cans are 12 ounces, while the bottles are 16 ounces (or more for plastic bottles). Now they ~do~ make little squatty 8-ounce cans of Dr Pepper, but Forrest made a point of writing 7.5, not 8. And those 8-ounce cans are 100 calories, not 90.

    The acreage difference is also mysterious. The space he has set aside for his Dr Pepper can is (2.086 acres – 2.08555 acres), or 0.00045 acres. Sure, that sounds small and reasonable, but let’s do the math. One acre is 43560 square feet, so 0.00045 acres is 19.602 square feet — over 200 times larger than the space that a can of soda would take up.

    On a final note, Forrest never mentions bottles of Dr Pepper — always cans. Go to Google and pull up a picture of a Dr Pepper can. What big, bold number do you see for the number of flavors in Dr Pepper?

      • googled the images … the dr pepper ads over time… didn’t read them all but there is a cowboy “Frosty, man… Frosty” 1950, and a “Pretty Peggy Pepper” 1941. Interesting, but just playful I think.

    • 23

      It has meaning, as a confirmation hint, to me. Not as solid as the same hint in TToTC, though.

        • Should have asked me.:). Now that I have read up a little farther, and yes, I agree with 23 being part of the solve, it is just a small part. Almost nothing, but yet, it is there. Maybe it is a coincidence, wouldn’t matter much, but so many coincidences, when does it just become true. IDK, if it is so big to make your solve flawed, then you may just have a problem. IMO, it’s definitely not something that would make or break a solve. So Zap, I agree the number is there, but not something that will make or break. All my opinion of course. It’s just another example of how two people can arrive at the same conclusion on something, by two entirely different approaches. Just that fact tends to tell me that something is there, that needs attention.

      • Sean: “row 4 of block 23,” 23 stumps, 23 words in the reversed Tony Bennett lyrics, 20% chance of living 3 years, cloves in the 23rd position of the spice drawer, 23rd fighter bomber squadron, “23 page article”. Not an overwhelming number of cases, but enough to be a curiosity.

        • Perhaps it speaks to the importance of lines 2 and 3 of the poem, or line 23 which would make JDA happy.

          • Miafarmerfriend: well played, both in identification and delivery. 😉 All three of the “culprit’s” jerseys have relevance for me. Lugnutz previously chimed in on one of them. I also forgot to include the reference in the final TFTW poem on page 259. A poem that, btw, has 6 stanzas, 4 lines per stanza.

        • Zap:

          wow. nice. I am not sure anymore what constitutes confirmation bias or an actual insight. This Chase certainly works the old brain around, that’s for sure.

        • Sean and John: Thanks. Though I don’t know if pattern recognition in this Chase is more of a blessing or a curse!

    • Zap—
      I googled Dr Pepper 7.5 oz and it is a standard can size with 90 calories so not sure about your post about those being “bogus” numbers. I do find it interesting though that old Dr Pepper bottles do have 10, 2 and 4 on them. I had forgotten about that. I used to see those numbers on the bottles when I was a kid.

      • Hi Sparrow: please show me where 7.5 ounces is standard, cuz I’ve never seen it (and I’m perfectly prepared to be proven wrong). 12 oz is standard in the U.S. If you found 7.5 ounces anywhere, I seriously doubt it was in the States. When someone says a “can” of any soda today, it’s 12 ounces.

        • Did Fenn say it was standard though? If he said a regular size can whichbis 12oz amd gave tje mini facts, who knows.
          The mini cans have become more than a novelty item and are a standard item in the last few years.
          Perhaps Peggy wouldnt let him have a regular size.
          The size and calories are correct.

          For the acreage calculation, try using the area of a rivulet vs can. Its what Fenn is using to secret his can of deliciousness.

        • Zap, Kira is trying to show you that ff was referring to the smaller cans available with 7.5oz and 90 calories. Follow her links… Why call it bogus? Over thinking that hint.

          • Oz10 –

            I will out on a limb here and say that Zap is over working that as a clue because the answer “23” fits his solution.

            He googled Dr Pepper, saw the “23” on the can and thought Wow, I’m right again. On more “hint” that points to my very public secret spot in Montana.

            It’s classic confirmation bias.
            Unless Michael Jordan is the key to the puzzle of course!


          • So let me ask you this, Lugnutz. If Forrest actually DID want to leave you a hint, how many times would he have to repeat it for you to no longer write it off to coincidence or confirmation bias? I submit that Forrest could never successfully relay a hint to you because your personal threshold for transitioning from coincidence to purposeful design is astronomically high.

            I don’t go looking for 23s; quite frankly, they are of no use in my current solution, and I’m kind of hoping they ARE just coincidence. Because if they aren’t, then it means my solution may be flawed.

          • Zap –

            I will turn that around.
            What if we were looking for the Zaphod treasure instead of Fenn treasure?
            Would you give additional clues?
            Would you want those clues to quickly produce a winner?
            Why would you do it???
            I mean you left the clues and wrote the book, why give out clues?

            Or would you simply choose not to give clues after saying you wouldn’t over and over and over?

            If I email and tell you where I am looking would you give a clue KNOWING it would favor ME personally?.


          • Zap,

            I’ve been tracking numbers for a while now but 23 just hasn’t made my list. It’s very possible I just missed it.

            BUT, I most certainly see 2s and 3s. They’re everywhere and I have a hunch they are very important in understanding how to get to WWWH and how HOB fits in.

            Heck, even Dr Pepper kinda fits. 2-Es, 2-Rs, and 3-Ps, but that’s a stretch IMO. Something else is going on there. Waco, TX, pharmacy, metric conversion, 4.5, etc.

            I think the answer is right there in plain sight and the magician has us fooled again just like Skippy’s plane on Hebgen Lake. And Dr Pepper is certainly a hint, right there waiting for someone to figure it out…..IMO.


          • Lugnutz – if I was designing a treasure hunt, I would first of all recognize that I have no way of knowing how easy or hard it will be for others to solve. If I want the challenge to last awhile, I will err on the side of making it too difficult. By allowing myself the flexibility of providing future hints in the event that everyone is absolutely stumped, I can “tweak” the difficulty downward in baby-steps. Since I’m getting real-time feedback from thousands of lab rats, I am now in a much better position to objectively measure the puzzle’s evolving difficulty.

            I can’t read Forrest’s mind, so I have no idea what his expectations were or are in terms of an optimum Fenn hunt duration. He could be completely ambivalent about it. He has certainly said as much on occasion. Then again, people getting injured or killed may have impacted his original longevity goals. I just don’t know. If I had to guess based on the volume of his continued interaction with the searcher community, and the (IMO, Heavy Emphasis!) barrage of hints (not clues!) that he regularly dispenses, I would lean toward believing that after 8 years he’s ready for the Chase to come to a conclusion.

          • O where, o where has Forrest Fenn gone?
            O where, o where could he be?
            Absence of his wit and wisdom sure is depressing to me.

            Is it that he has nothing more to say?
            No more need to help us find our way?
            Dare I ask, is this the cold, of which we were told? With only a short time left to play?
            Could this all be done and over by the month of May?

            If I’m “correct”, boy o boy is THAT gonna make someone’s day!
            And if it’s me, I’m happy to say, you’re welcome to remain…ffmia 🙂

        • Kira/Sparrow/All: I stand corrected on the 7.5-oz can size. *I* have never seen one, but clearly they do exist. And Dr Pepper evidently does some rounding on either the calorie counts or the volume since 150 calories per 12-ounce can exactly agrees with 100 calories per 8-ounce can (12.5 calories per ounce), but 90 calories per 7.5 ounces is only 12 calories per ounce. (If it’s 7.5 ounces, it should be 93.75 calories; if it’s exactly 90 calories, then the volume should be 7.2 ounces.) No matter. My main point was the recurrence of our friend 23.

    • Zap:

      I never did the calculation on the acreage.

      IMO – 19.602 is relevant. Thank you for the post.

    • Zap,
      “The first is a minor nit, but it is one that is repeated every time Forrest mentions Dr Pepper. You see, there is no period in Dr Pepper.”

      Actually, if you look at the link, periods were used in Dr. Pepper historically. https://www.drpepper.com/en/history

      Period or no period….don’t see how that matters.

      • Hi Colokid: I don’t know if it matters or not. I merely note it. IMO punctuation “errors” have previously been indicators for hints (e.g. Border’s and Borders, Amos ‘n Andy instead of Amos ‘n’ Andy, “23 page article” instead of “23-page article” in TFTW page 162 — yes, 23 again).

        • Zap, strange you would hear it from me, but, yes, 23 does have it’s place. Of course there will be people that will not agree, but 23 does come into play. It is not a huge clue, IMO, but in the end, IMO, it will be in the solve.

          See Zap, I can agree with you, :)….

    • There are tons of coincidences with numbers and Forrest’s writings and interviews. I think they are all rabbit holes except for the number 9 and 1. One being the 1st clue and nine being the last where the treasure is located.

      I’ve read here that some don’t count clues and some think there are more or less in the poem. I think I can count them out. Try a solve for “X” as being the 1st clue & you will have a better chance. X=1

      • I agree with your whatsupdoc. There are only 9 numbers in our world, no matter how many digits. There is an 11.1 % chance for any number to appear no matter how many digits. Pretty high odds for repetition. That’s why I like roulette because I am a habitual numbers guy. There is a 1 in 38 chance for a hit- good odds. IMO . But who knows if there is any actual synergy in the numbers people see from FF. I don’t see any but anything is still on this chase table yet to be determined or otherwise. IMO

        • Alsetenash – “There are only 9 numbers in our world”
          0 zero is a number too.
          Then again it may be a lack of sum.

          Either way our world as searchers know it use all the numbers including the most common by far is zero as in how many have found the treasure.

          Stuck at ground zero again.

          I do not believe there are coordinates in the poem although I have found many.
          If there are coordinates they would have to point to WWWH and none of the later clues considering the “no shortcuts” comment.
          Otherwise we could get coordinates from the last clue without needing the coordinates for WWWH or clues 2 thru 8.

          I discount coordinates in the poem for WWWH, cause I don’t know how the many different coordinate systems work and think it may be specialized knowledge for me.

          I’m now stuck at 1 until someone finds the chest.

          • Kraft. Of course there is coordinates to be found because whence the chest is found ,that person will then have the coordinates. But I do not believe there is coordinates to be gleaned from the poem. In opposition of what I think, the logic to that would be that numbers were used to create the words. Now this is contrarian to simplify and no special knowledge required. People that think there are coordinates to be obtained in the poem and prior to finding the chest ,can do as they please. I won’t try and convince nor debate them about this-have at’er.

            Zero is not a number but a word as given in contrast to something of a number being as it is nothing. Therefore , Zero is a point to make in the numbers language as nothing ,compared to something. Nothing exsists before something and everything is created from nothing at first. This is the point- it is called ZeroPoint.

            I am one that understands the magnificence of the 3,6,9.

            In my opinion of course.

          • Alsetenash: “zero is not a number” ??? You’re joking, right? If the Romans had invented a zero, perhaps they’d still be running the world. Zero is arguably more important than every other digit.

          • Zap. I’ll try to stay on chase topic with this. FF had an idea-ground Zero. Then he took 1 step with that idea- he had Indulgence ( Tarzan) . Then he started to put things in Indulgence step 2, so on and so forth. Zero is a thought ,an idea ,that then becomes a manifestation with step one. If you were looking at FF when he was first thinking of this idea, but he has not informed you of this idea, would you see this idea? Can you count the steps of his thoughts? You cannot see anything if his idea until you see Indulgence. What number owns this idea would you give , being unawares? You can’t because you don’t know his thoughts- you can’t see them. The first thing you would see is number 1- Indulgence. Later on you could say ,well his thought is the first step number 1. But a thought is not physically manifested.

            There is the counting form of mathematics and there is the geometry of form mathematics. That is it. You can’t count a zero if there is not at least a one of something to compare it to being as a nothing , physically speaking. In geometry ,where there is nothing of form there is nothing there. Can’t see nothere there because there is nothing to see, but nothing.

            Zero is not a number , other than a word that is used to explain in contrast of a no thing by comparison to something.

            Zero is the non existence before something. So yes, it is important as a WORD but it is not a number because you can’t nor see nothing. Though you can very much see nothing.

            Respectfully to you,


            In my opinion.

          • Hello Alsetenash. If zero isn’t a number, would you be so kind to explain the negative numbers, please?

          • Hi Pdenver. I mean Zero is a word for a number of a nothing of no amounts. So, a word instead of a number because nothing is not a number. 🙂 It’s only a form of a word used in the number language. IMO .

            What do you mean by ‘ negative numbers” ? I just need you to be more specific. Please.

          • I’m sorry, Alsetenash, but your argument falls flat because of your own statement:

            “There is an 11.1 % chance for any number to appear no matter how many digits.”

            How do you propose to represent the number ten without a zero? Or the fourteenth digit of e? There are ten DIGITS — by definition. 0 is the most important of them. Mathematics, engineering, physics, biology, astronomy are impossible without it. To say zero is not a number is no different from saying one is not a number.

          • Hello Alsetenash. The negative numbers are those below the number zero. The number zero would seem to be important enough to create positive numbers above the number zero, as well as, the negative numbers below. Think of a bank account and how the number zero is important. Another example is a thermometer. I believe zero is a number, not necessarily a null of something. This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • Pdenver. Negative numbers are just opposites to positives , 0 bring the world and symbol of the place of no place and space of the transition. Like what Kira just said. There is no Matter of form at zero.

            Just like our calendar of 1BC ,0, and 1AD. You could say ( for this practice) BC is negative or backwards counting. 0 , Zero is in between that transition called ZeroPoint . I think it’s important to understand this for the poem as a back of the mind thing. In our aplphabet , what comes before A ? Nothing. What comes before 1 of something? Nothing-Zero.

            It takes 9 months of gestation from conception , then we are born. We are I years old after 12 months after the birth but we have been matter of form, forming in development for 9 months. So , we don’t have our first birthday after 3 months being born because we don’t acknowledge the 9 months of gestation as being within the first year we exsist. Our matter of being in form at our first birthday is actually 18 months of existence of matter in form. We chose birthday as the start. Is the first 9 months , ZeroPoint?

            Some people debate the new millennium started at midnight of the year 2000. But it really started midnight of 2001. There has to be a complete fulfilment of 10O years first ,not 99. Samething for a decade, a full ten years.

            ZeroPoint – there are numbers before and after. Positive , negative no matter what it applies to.

            The poem is written in the positive , 1 omega. What’s the negative part, the other omega. ZeroPoint point is the treasures bold so to speak. IMO .


            Hope this helps.

          • Edit in first paragraph ‘0 bring the world and symbol ….

            I meant ‘ 0 being the word and symbol’.

          • Alsetenash: by a negative number, pdenver means the result you get when you subtract a larger number from a smaller one. Like 9 minus 23.

          • Kira, in a word, yes. Base 10 is counting and based 12 is geometry. Fenn being an archeologist , would see artifacts from ancient times depicting this knowledge and wisdom. It’s what I see in his works. This ancient wisdom in Greece, Egypt , etc. When combining the two base systems in practice is where confusion arises and calculus was created lol.

            This , to me, is FF’s little secret about the Double Omegas 🙂 . It’s explained by the defining observations of apposing polarities , positive, negative and clockwise , counter clockwise. Look at a clock for instance, the Hopi understand this quite well. North, East, West, South ( NEWS) . On a clock it’s 12(N) , 3 (E) , 9(W) , 6 ((S). This is base 12—12,3,6,9. Keep adding by 3 when using counting in geometry. You get solar system, galaxies and universes all base 12. The negative numbers are rotational oppositions of it s polar opposite, relative to its opposing ” partner’. It’s not negative as being subtracted nor less than , in this observational practice. It is just a reverse motion. If they come to an intersection point it is this (:) ,such as 11:11 or -11:11. Looks like ‘ time’ doesn’t it. Just opposit rotations. This is electromagnetism. Base 12.

            Negative numbers in counting is just like financial. A negative is debt ( red) and profit is positive ( black). But in electricity and magnetic these colours represent these as opposi meaning. They don’t handshake in meanings comparatively .IMO

            I believe , by observation, FF has incorporated this symmetry in his poem. IMO .

            I probably am making no sense and seems special knowledge. But base 12 is really easy. Based 10 has confused it all, and the poem lol . IMO .

          • Hello Kira. Would you be so kind to explain the concept of temperature below zero, please?

          • Pdenver
            The concept of below zero is due to the limitations of the substance, usually mercury in thermometers, at which colder temperatures is found. Hence we say below zero, howerer this is innacuracte as there is nothing below the true zero in the universe, which is called absolute zero.

          • Pdenver
            Perhaps a demonstration is in order. Being every geomentric shape can be represented on a graph to explainon the object in mathmayical terms, a human creation, an 2d xy graph is used (example, the center of a circle is at the intersection of xy) and further that with 3d objects on an xyz graph ( sphere is centered at xyz), please post a real life picture of the negative side if a ball. Being this is chase hunt and GE is used, maybe you can find negative lake.

            Oh and if you would, I would to see a vase of -12 roses, I know what 12 roses look like, never seen -12

          • Hi pdenver: in terms of The Chase, zero is probably the most relevant number since it tallies the number of clues that most searchers have figured out.

          • Alsetenash: using the Gregorian (or Christian) calendar as an example was a humorous error on your part that actually supports your own case. 😉 You see, there was no year 0 AD (or 0 BC). The day immediately preceding January 1, 1 AD was December 31st, 1 BC.

          • Thanks Zap. This is/was my point and you showed it well. I didn’t error, just highlighted it. There was no zero date, just ZeroPoint , a point in time when Time transitioned from BC to AD. Zero has great importance , but it doesn’t count to anything. It’s transitionary. This poem and hunt idea (ZeroPoint) by FF was because he thought he was going to Transition. The idea, the changeover is ZeroPoint . It’s in the poem . This point and purpose of me having this as a talking point ; is that this helped me read the poem and understand the omegas- post era of a solve. IMO

            How else can I ‘ do experiments with my solve’ less BOTG.

            IMO .

          • Hi Kira: while “-12 roses” may make little sense, negative numbers nevertheless have clear relevance to The Chase for the simple fact that Indulgence currently resides at a longitude preceded by a minus sign. Yes: it’s just a convention since the longitude system for the earth has an arbitrary origin (Greenwich), and the choice of dividing a circle into 360 parts traces back to both Ptolemy and the Babylonians.

            The Babylonians were smart cookies for inventing a base-60 numbering system; it is no coincidence that the product of the three legs of any Pythagorean triangle is always divisible by 60.

        • Alsetenash,
          You probably didn’t even realize but you just stumbled on a new branch of mathematics based on 9 digits. I’ve heard of biary, octal, decimal, and hexadecimal systems, but never of a system based on 9 digits. What will you call it? May I suggest Novemal? The question is thought, which symbol (out of your 9 digits) are you planning to use to represent: null, or void. All of the other counting systems use symbol ‘0’. I would suggest you use symbol 9, otherwise things might get really confusing.

          • Zero is a valid integer value, so it’s not nothing. Null is nothing. Alsetenash is confusing zero for null.

          • It is null Jeremy. That is what I said essentially. You can write 0 (Zero) as a digit but it is nothing it a thought and idea , not a thing. It’s a number as a word. It is a nothing represented by a word or symbol. It is a number only represented by a word or symbol – written. Sure, it is used in binary etc. As I said above referencing physically you have to write it as a form of communication. As soon as you write a 1-9 it is a something it is a physical thing. To write 10 ( counting) you write a 1 and a zero because there are 10 things not 1 of zero nothings lol.

            Yes, that is what I said and meant – ZeroPoint or you can say Null. There are nine clues in the poem – not zero. Zero is a number only as a written representative and a written word in two ways 10 or ten.

            There is base-10 math (counting) and there is base -12 math ( geometry)
            We use base -10 for both , which is what Tesla was explaining- he was explaining – base 12. ZeroPoint vs writing zero as a digit and word representing Zero. He was talking about geometry. 3,6,9.

            So, this is imagination- ZeroPoint – a word that is key.

            “When used properly, imagination also can be a treasure,” FF

            “I wrote this someplace a few years ago and maybe you’ll think it’s worth remembering, Imagination isn’t a technique, it’s a key. f”

            Imagination is ZeroPoint . “As I have gone alone in there and with my treasures bold”.

            Word that is key is ZeroPoint- IMAGE ination.

            IMO .

          • I am just trying to explain my opinion of the poem as geometry and it’s symmetry. Tesla is the only one that understood base-12 math which is geometry. Someone referenced him is why. Not saying FF thought this but symmetry is a natural process and its natural in poetry because it’s imagination of forms. No need to force fit it because it’s natural. It helps with the understanding the natural process of poetry. Poetry is architecture. IMO .

            So , draw the poem.

            6 stanzas, 9 clues, 24 lines, 166 words . All within base12, with is perfectly divisible by 3- symmetry. One doesn’t have to know this to follow it as a technique for writing, but as a key. It’s just natural.

            IMO .

          • It’s hard for me to explain , therefore it’s hard to understand. I hope to better explain it this summer. I’ll be back then sometime. Until then:

            Been a pleasure here,

            “Let the future tell the truth, and evaluate each one according to his work and accomplishments. The present is theirs; the future, for which I have really worked, is mine” . Tesla.


          • How many oranges are on the table?


            It’s not that nothing is on the table. There’s air, maybe some nice furniture polish, a speck of dust. But specifically, there are zero oranges on the table.

            What is the sound of one hand clapping?


            The requirement for a clap is two hands, so this question has no result, or specifically the object “sound” is null, indeterminate, or nothing.

        • I personally doubt this zero issue has any bearing on this Chase, but just to add some FYI…


          “Though people have always understood the concept of nothing or having nothing, the concept of zero is relatively new; it fully developed in India around the fifth century A.D., perhaps a couple of centuries earlier. Before then, mathematicians struggled to perform the simplest arithmetic calculations. Today, zero — both as a symbol (or numeral) and a concept meaning the absence of any quantity — allows us to perform calculus, do complicated equations, and to have invented computers.

          “The Indian [or numerical] zero, widely seen as one of the greatest innovations in human history, is the cornerstone of modern mathematics and physics, plus the spin-off technology,” said Peter Gobets”

          • Actually, 0 does quantify the total number TCs that searchers have in hand including myself….IMO

      • “X” = 9.
        “X” is the 24th letter. 2+4=6.
        Write out “six” and mirror it.
        xisix, or x is 9.
        Don’t see anywhere that x=1. If you were to choose which, at least 9 has some sense to it.
        (Actually, the “x” the poem offers is at clue 8, IMO.)

        • Hi Charlie, I don’t suppose you care to share what you consider clue 8? I do believe that X being the 24th letter in the alphabet means something. He has mentioned putting X on a map on a few occasions and X is the only letter not in the poem.

          One other thought I have had. If the clues led you to creating an X on a map would it not be easy to pass close by the treasure around clue 4 before continuing to search for the next clue?

          • Aaron, clue 8 for me is just a spot that I reach when I apply clue 7. Clue 7 is a distance for me. From the blaze, pick up something there (clue 5), head a direction (clue 6), for so many feet (clue 7), to arrive at “X” (clue 8), clue 9 for me is a time and a distance, that goes with the key. It also supports a word, that, which is key.

            I didn’t follow the clues when I solved the poem, The poem solved for roughly the last 5 clues.
            The way I see the poem is: Follow the instructions, break down each line (kind of like each line is a puzzle), As many different ways that the line can be broken down. All 24 lines can be broken down by following the instructions. From that yielded letter values, (f gave letters a number system), after figuring out the numbers, back to the poem where numbers where plugged into obvious spots, which gave coordinates. (Begin with, times, dates, etc…) Support for the numbers is all over the place, Dates and other things f has said work out. With the coordinates, found the spot. To get there, you start at a location, only one way to the spot. That is when I can see wwwh. Where to start, and there happens to be a canyon near by. Clue 3 cannot be solved, and only seen it because of BotG. Clue 4, the blaze, also cannot be solved, but there is a hint to it’s location. But, even on site, it’s still hidden, but can be found. The “marvel gaze” is there below the blaze. That is obvious and can be pre-determined.

            So, the clues did not lead to creating an “X”, the poem did. Some clues can be pre-determined, others cannot, IMO.

            To try to determine what a clue is just cannot work with the wording of the poem. Plus, we cannot possibly know what f thinks is a clue, just what he has told us.

            Wwwh cannot be solved, IMO. If I told you where my wwwh was, gave you all the geography and history that would totally match, also matched up a bunch of ATF comments, book hints, canyons, train stations, warm waters, just a load of info that fit, It could only be taken as a guess. Even if the info was overwhelming, it still would be a guess, because the poem doesn’t solve for a particular place. Unless you can solve the poem and then get a wwwh from that solve, (in my case it was the coordinates that gave me a spot) anything or place that someone comes up with is a guess. It leads to a good way to check your solve. If you were to post your solve, is there a part that you are guessing to get an answer? If the poem does not tell you where to go, then it’s a guess. So many here do that same thing. They say that wwwh is this or that and give 10 reasons why it fits, but never how the poem told them where to start. If you start here, then why? Where in the poem does it say to do that? Someone can give 100 reasons why their wwwh is the one, stories, things f has said, interviews, whatever, and it could match up with everything they think is important, but unless they come off saying something to the effect of, I solved the poem this way, and in doing so yielded this spot, in which is where I begin, unless it comes from the poem, all the matching info is just coincidences and results in a big guess. That’s why I say, what is the one possibility that searchers have not considered? That all the clues cannot be solved. That kind of thinking puts a lot of solves to rest.
            Even f said, I did not know there were 9 clues until I finished the poem. So, if he didn’t count clues, why should we. It’s the poem that he wrote that tells the spot, not the clues. Don’t get it twisted though, the clues will be followed, they will be one right after the other in the poem, and they will lead to the chest. But f has said so many times to go back to the poem, why doesn’t he say go back to the clues? Because he can’t, because some of those clues are just not there without the poem solve. With the solve, then the understanding of what a clue is. For me, the path/clues are lines: 5,6,9,13,16,17,20,22,24. The key is in line 9. The coordinate lines are different, along with the letter values, which are also different. The key and the clue lines, for me, add up to a book of days, also, give the same number that I get from my coordinates. 2442. Or 66, FF.
            The blaze, remember he said it’s not facing N,S,E,or W? On a map, the N,S,E,W form a cross, or a “t”. Turn that cross so the N is NW, W is SW, S is SE, and the E is NE. Forms an “X”. The key of a map, the blaze direction, forms a +x. Just thought that was pretty neat. Texas….(don’t think it is anything but to say the blaze faces NW, or NE, or SW, or SE. )

          • Hi Charlie, I would like your theory to be right but it is hard to believe that coordinates were placed in the poem. How do you know that FF doesn’t want WWWH to be a guess. He wanted to get people outdoors and the longer this last and the more guessing we have to do the more the outdoors remain being enjoyed by searchers. If there were coordinates in the poem I couldn’t see this chase lasting hundreds of years. Also, I really doubt that the people that did find the first few clues did it with coordinates. If they did they would still be searching the same area instead of moving on from WWWH or quitting the chase.

            I really like numbers, and math so I would naturally root for this I just find it not believable.

            Good luck to you and thanks for all of the info you shared.


          • You are right Aaron, that is the argument to the numbers and coordinates. It’s just what I’ve found. And, has good support. Actually, as for the letter/numbers thing, the poem only gives half of them. It’s figuring it out that was fun/frustrating.
            The coordinates cannot be totally accurate. I guess that’s why it only supports clue 8. The distances are in feet. Think of “knowlege”. Know lege. Lege short for legend. Leg end is foot. A little hint to the possibility of numbers.
            Forrest doesn’t want anything to be a guess. He flat out said that guessing or playing a hunch leads to a thin wallet. And that it has no place in the chase. Paraphrasing, but could get the ATF if you need.

            It’s a difficult sell to think that all the clues are places. Not that they don’t result in places, but that they are names of places. With the poem consisting of only words, you then would be looking at names, words of “places”. That just does not seem to be able to last a thousand years, to me. Lakes change names, towns, cities, rivers, creeks, whatever. Things move, get destroyed, get built over, you name it. If he is thinking future, he knows this, and has even said as much. Numbers somehow, someway would need to be used by those future searchers. We all are looking at this at present time, we should look at all angles of possibilities. But you know this.
            The few that got the first clues right didn’t know it, they very easily could just be saying where they would start, simple guess. That is possible. In fact, all the searchers that have been within 200 or 500 feet, or the ones that got the first two clues, could all have been guessing. It’s coincidence. They did not have a solve or any idea of what they were doing, IMO. The main ATF in that situation is the “may have solved four clues but not sure”. F knows the clues, how could HE not be sure. If he’s not sure, then the searcher was not sure. A searcher could guess and get all the clues, that is possible, just like someone could just stumble upon the chest, but highly unlikely.
            I’ll leave you with this, words, names they all change in time, but numbers….well you know. It’s the “chase off-season” right now. When trying to solve the poem, or going over your solve, see if there are ways to find numbers. I always direct someone to line 21 if they choose to try. Look at the reason he uses the word good. Use “ar” as an instruction of “are”. Treat that line as it’s own puzzle. You will get two answers to that puzzle, but also some insight. Or not, it’s just another searchers way of solving the poem. But if anything, find a way to solve the poem, not the clues. I also wish you luck in your search, using two different ways to solve the poem to get to the same conclusion seems to not be so impossible as of late.

      • Nikola Tesla did countless mysterious experiments, but he was a whole other mystery on his own. Almost all genius minds have a certain obsession. Nikola Tesla had a pretty big one!

        He was walking around a block repeatedly for three times before entering a building, he would clean his plates with 18 napkins, he lived in hotel rooms only with a number devisable by 3. He would make calculations about things in his immediate environment to make sure the result is devisable by 3 and base his choices upon the results. He would do everything in sets of 3.

        Some say he had OCD, some say he was very superstitious.

        However, the truth is a lot deeper.

        “If you knew the magnificence of the three, six and nine, you would have a key to the universe.” – Nikola Tesla

  51. Those numbers are critical and are related to (at least one) major hint in the book which has been found. How that helps to solve the clues in the poem is still a big question, but clearly folks are thinking right about how to solve it now.

    I wouldn’t be surprised if the formula is found, along with the treasure this year.

    Simplify. It’s math.

  52. Math comtext. Based on a 4×5 ft area as a rivulet you get the following:

    Times Fenn math of 2.086 of his acreage.
    Gets 90866.16ftsq
    Minus 4×5 rivulet is 20ftsq
    Divided by 43560ftsq to get acreage
    Equals 2.085541

    Fenn said he would have 2.08555 left.

    Seems like rounding to me.
    Would 4×5 be a standard rivulet?

  53. The Dr. Pepper thread has another interesting connection for those interested in “code” or cryptographic type solves. The word “pepper”…and the word “salt” are terms used in a type of cryptography using a code/key word base….
    Not something in my wheelhouse…but I did discover that back when Fenn shared the Dr Pepper/allotted public acreage story. Have fun…

  54. Dal,

    You might find this from “Wikipedia” interesting and maybe a source of slow down on your site. The FCC this last summer stopped Net Neutrality which has hurt websites

    “Net neutrality is the principle that governments should mandate Internet service providers to treat all data on the Internet the same, and not discriminate or charge differently by user, content, website, platform, application, type of attached equipment, or method of communication. For instance, under these principles, internet service providers are unable to deliver content tailored to the capabilities of a specific device or user, offer free services or to intentionally block, slow down or charge money for specific websites and online content.”

    I don’t know if you are aware of this, try checking your server speed test, up and down load. Just trying to help. 🙂

  55. Why can’t I solve this thing? It reminds me of my childhood. I once said “Mom, I feel so stupid all the time”. And she said “It’s because you are stupid honey. Get used to it”. I sure miss my dear mothet.

    • That reminds me of “I’m sorry I hurt your feelings calling you stupid. I thought you already knew!”
      My wife put that in the kitchen for me. I don’t understand why.??

    • Aww, Sparrow. Just remember, you are her son, and not “stupid honey”. I miss my Mom, too. She said I was an Intellectual Idiot, but not to the sense of the meaning as others know it. To Mom, it meant I was smart, but common sense was something I lacked.

      • pdenver=
        I AM BACK OF MY FRIEND, I lost a lot of things this time I had been waiting for the burning of my computer hd, I hope that some things that I said last year have helped in some way or even to see in another way and angle in relation to the poem and the history of your fenn in the scrapbook, if you are interested in some points of these cuts, I sent a message in my email (rpc1986@hotmail.com), and I send you writing what I have for you and for those who most want to read and see how I see your fenn.
        I can not get the treasure or even do research in the proper areas for research, but if my interpretations and how I see help I’m happy …

    • Stupid is as stupid does.

      Even Forrest Gump got rich,
      I wonder if he was related to Forrest Fenn?
      Forrest isn’t a real common name.

  56. Just wondering if any of you guy’s have questioned the combination of the nine clues within the poem?

    Forrest has never said what the nine clues are?

    Are they nine individual clues or could there be for example;

    Three clues, each of the clues appears three times = 9

    Five clues, four clues appear twice and one clue appears once = 9

    Two clues, one clue appears five times the second clue appears four times = 9

    The clue combination numbers can go on and on and on.

    I’d like to get you guy’s thoughts on this.

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Ronnie the Scot

      I also believe there are 9 separate clues in the poem. Some hints of what the clues are can be found in his books, but that is subjective interpretation and differs by searcher. There is a thread for the 9 clues. Drop this idea in there and see what develops.


      • He also said the little girl from India can’t get past the first Two clues..That leads me to believe you have to have boots on the ground in order to qualify your location..get to clue # 3…Just one guy’s opinion.

        • RB,

          It think you and other searchers are missing one important possibility regarding the little girl from India.

          “Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is?”

          Since she only has a map of the RMs, there is a very good chance that some of the clue answers lie outside the RMs, so she needs another map.

          Perhaps this explains why F was originally going to leave his car in Denver as the last clue, or so that’s what he told Doug Preston. That is to say, if the last clue isn’t in the RMs, then maybe other clues are not as well. Something to seriously ponder IMO.

          And even though I have a specific area of interest in the RMs, I was led there from places outside the RMs and the “sprinkles”.


          • Remember he also said (paraphrasing, of course) That “in theory” you could go all the way to the chest on a computer but in reality it’s not likely. I don’t remember where I read that. I keep trying to reconcile how it doesn’t conflict with the Little Girl from India statement. I assume it doesn’t but I can’t see how.

          • Sean, that’s my sons name too by the way.

            I believe this is what you were looking for, taken from a May 15 email interview.

            “How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Another way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?)

            FF: All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.”

            So let’s ignore the girl from India for now. How do you reconcile him parking in Denver as the last clue as part of the suicide scenario if all the clues must be in the RMs, because Denver clearly is not, or at least that’s what folks have posted here. I’ve researched that myself and can’t find anything stating it is.

            And to my knowledge F has never stated or clarified 9 clues = 100% RMs, so to me parking his car in Denver supports an arguement that perhaps not all the clues are in the RMs.

            Try and keep an open mind. Good luck to you and please take care.


          • Sean
            Find what Fenn said about the map in his book too far to walk and finding the chest, that’ll help you.

          • Again, I don’t have the exact quote (all you guys seem to, maybe it’s time I start a database) but I felt his last clue would be “in the car” as opposed to “being the car” if you see what I mean. So whatever clue #9 which is now in the poem was originally slated to be, say, written on a piece of paper on the dashboard, if you will.


    • Ronnie, Don’t know if this FF quote helps you or not:

      Forrest confirmed in the Radio New Zealand show (Jesse Mulligan Interviews Forrest Fenn) which aired April 3, 2013, at the 9:43 mark: “The first clue in the poem is ‘Begin it where warm waters halt’. That’s the first clue. If you can’t figure that clue out, you don’t have anything.”

      I think there are nine individual clues in the poem. What I find fascinating is that ff described the first clue as the entire line, not just the words “warm waters halt.” So, I wonder if that means the other 8 clues are 8 other lines in the poem, versus a couple words like creek, or heavy loads, or water high. Hmmm…

      I guess this conversation should take place on the thread called The Nine Clues, or The Poem.

      • cynthia

        You made the following statement ——

        I think there are nine individual clues in the poem. What I find fascinating is that ff described the first clue as the entire line, not just the words “warm waters halt.” So, I wonder if that means the other 8 clues are 8 other lines in the poem, versus a couple words like creek, or heavy loads, or water high. Hmmm………..

        I missed where Fenn made that stateement. Can you tell where you found this information?

        thanks, Jim

        • Re-read cynthia’s post, Jim – she provided the exact quote and detailed citation for ff’s statement in her paragraph above the one you quoted.


    • Ronnie,
      I’m of the opinion that there are 9 separate locations or physical objects that are defined by the 9 clues. In the poem I think each of these clues is defined by one or more pieces of information (usually more than one). That redundancy in the poem is what will give the eventual solver the confidence that Mr Fenn alludes to. So if you’re seeing two things in the poem that mean the same thing, perhaps they are just one clue that has two pieces.

    • Well, go to tarryscant.com…type in “will know” and go down one or two full screens. He indicates that stanza 2 sounds like 3 or 4 clues and stanza 3 sounds like “a couple of clues”. I had forgotten about this exchange.

  57. I searched around for an answer to a question I have and could not find one. This is my question:
    “Do the nine clues and locations to the clues land only within the boundaries of the Map”?
    Thank You

    • See if this helps Murmur…
      Forrest has said that “Begin it where warm waters halt” IS the first clue….He has also said there are thousands of places in the Rocky Mtns. where warm waters halt….Pretty good bet that the first clue is in the Rocky Mtns. somewhere…

      If the last(ninth) clue places you at the chest and the hiding place is on that Map(I assume you mean the one in TFTW), then I would also say all other clues between one and nine are also locations within the boundaries of that Map…

      It would make no sense whatsoever to start on the map, go off the map, then end up back on the map….Just not logical…..

      Hope that’s sufficient……..

      • Samsmith,
        I could be wrong, but I believe I read that FF said…. There are thousands of places North of Santa Fe that warm waters halt. He did say…Your destination is small, but its location is huge (Posted Feb. 19th, 2016) And said several times…..Look at the BIG picture. Thanks, Samsmith hope your having fun!

        Riding the poem……………. ~Murmur

        • Thousands?!?!?

          “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.”
          ff (12 Aug ’14; mysteriouswritings.com)

          You guys aren’t doing yourselves or anybody else any good discussing fake info that’s easily checked (use tarryscant.com).

          Now some other searcher can truly say “I read somewhere that ff said there are thousands . . . (etc)”


      • Pinatubocharlie,

        Thanks for Your opinion. Its facile to thin out the herd without fences.


      • Pinatubocharlie Thanks for sharing your opinion. In my solve I could not have solved clues 3 and 4 without boots on the ground.Granted I do not have the chest so my solve could be way out, but its reassuring that one clue-in my opinion-qualifies the previous clue..I ran out of time to continue my search.I hope to finish it in the spring if all goes as planned. Wishing all involved a safe prosperous journey..

    • Murmur: While all of my clues happen to be within the boundaries of the four states left in play, there is no requirement (based on the totality of Fenn’s statements) that this be the case. Only the chest is stipulated as being in either New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming or Montana. While Utah, Idaho and Canada have been eliminated as resting places for Indulgence, each of these locations has real estate that is not only in the mountains north of Santa Fe, but in the Rocky Mountains above 5,000 feet and below 10,200 feet in elevation.

  58. I am thinking we all have a natural tendency to over-complicate. FF has said at least 4 times over the years, in different ways, to simplify. I think numbers games and secret combinations are not simple. They aren’t even rabbit holes, they are rabbit mazes to get lost in.
    The only other statement I recall often repeated is to follow the clues in order.
    How do you break it down and make it simple?
    Without following these two suggestions you will likely only find rabbits.

    The other statement I think critical was that the words seem simple but he felt like an architect writing it. If it isn’t complicated then word interpretation must be accurate, for example what does “quickly” mean I wonder? Even if you find your blaze will you find the chest if you don’t define quickly correctly?

    “Been wise and found the blaze”, can you find the blaze if you haven’t been wise? I think “and” is critical here. In the simplest form wise and found go together.
    If you haven’t been wise there’s always canasta.

    Anyway, that’s some of my approach. The simple approach is plenty difficult for me.

  59. Samsmith,

    I was just wondering if you are the Singer/Songwriter Sam Smith?

    My brother was the late Johnny Cash, I’m the poorer brother Ronnie No Cash.

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Nope, Ronnie…Different guy….

      I’m just an ol’ country boy from Tennessee…Though many of my ancestors hail from your neck of the woods, Smith’s on one side, McAfee’s on the other….

      “May heaven spare ye lang to kiss the breath o’ mony simmers.” – Burns

      • Samsmith,

        I think we need to get you over to Scotland too address the haggis.

        I was going to ask Jeannie, but I don’t think Haggis Mcbagpipes would be to pleased.

        Ronnie the Scot

    • Wow, that’s interesting. I’m related to Eddie Money whose nephew is Joe Buck. A very distant relative of mine is the minister Creflo Dollar. There are a lot of coincidences in life.

  60. Two questions;

    1. Do you guy’s think that if the T.C is found in Forrest Fenns lifetime, will it be straightforward for the finder?

    2. Do you guy’s think that if the T.C is found after Forrest Fenns death, will it be straightforward for the finder?

    ( I hope Forrest that you are around for a long time yet)

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Ronnie, I for one, believe that it will be straight forward for the finder. That belief is the same for myself regardless of f’s life status. IMO, that is the way he designed it.

  61. het dal, did you actually write the sb entries you elude to or did forrest write them for you to post? i have a secondary reason for this question.

    • HI rapala67: I’ll answer for Dal (hopefully correctly). Forrest wrote most of the Scrapbooks, but Dal definitely wrote a few of them. In those cases, Dal is very clear about which words are his.

      • let me tell you what dal told me in an email…..”The ones with my byline on them were written by me but Forrest OK’d them before they were posted…”

  62. Zero (0) has been given so little respect – so I wanted to chime in on the discussion and provide some support for zero. Whether moving from point A to B or designating a location on a coordinate system, the starting point can be considered zero (0) or zero, zero (0, 0) – the point by which all other locations are gauged against. So I ask that we give zero (0) the respect that it deserves.

    I also believe that negative numbers have had their character attacked in several discussions – what have they done to deserve such searcher negativity? They sit there, just below zero (0), causing no harm to anyone or any other number. Without them, how could we define locations in a zero-“center”-based coordinate system? In fact, locations in three out of four quadrants (75%) could not be correctly defined without negative numbers. Please give the negative numbers their due – they need equal respect as zero.

    The discussion around zero and negative numbers has no direct relation to the correct solve. IMO

    • Covert1
      You misunderstand, its not the issue with 0 or -, its the lack of recognition of what they are.
      Without these we cannot explain all that is in the universe, but just because we need them to expalin all that is in the universe doesnt mean they actually exist.

      Its understanding concepts and points of reference. If “you” lack these how do you solve the poem if there is an unwillingness to see what is therr?

      • Epic, profound, philosophy Kira.

        I’m not sure I can wrap my mind around what you are trying to say…..so I won’t….

      • Ditto, Kara! ZeroPoint is the first stanza. IMO . Then cometh BC and AD in the poem. The idea is the ‘transitioning ‘ point in the poem. It’s the idea, the thought and imagination. The idea after (BC) and because of the pending transition ( idea- ZeroPoint- imagination) to the post transition (AD) You/we searchers do as he did from start to the end of this story…..do. As he did ….’ As I have gone alone in there…”

        First stanza- the clockwise perception. Stanza 5 – the counter clockwise perception. To say positive or negative is not a connotation written in the poem. Just beginnings and endings .

        ‘As I have gone alone ‘ , then it’s , ‘ So why is it that I must I go’…..

        Breath in, breath out. etc. ZeroPoint ( idea) in between.

        IMO .

    • Covert One. I wouldn’t call it digression because these two topic Points are a ‘handshake ‘ with each other. I can only speak for myself of myself as in my process. Not that I ‘ know’ anything just speaking of my process.

      These talking points seem like it’s too complex as diverting from simple . Non of this I am saying is the ‘ how ‘ I created my personal solve of the poem. This is but a ‘checking my solution’ process. My solve is simple . Like-division checks the correctness of your multiplication. IMO.

      Tarry point follows ZeroPoint. But what I use as a ‘ control’ in this experiment is Words followed by the simple geometric form of the meanings of the words by location .There in lies , or rather, I should find symmetry WITH the numbers inherent in geometric forms- a map! Words first , numbers second. It is here, that I think I would find the TARRY Point handshake of words, numbers and the location. IMO

      I need ,at a minimum ,3 clues (triangulation) locations to find the other 6 . I have to solve the words meaning and location of the 3 first ,to be able to have this Tarry Point. The ZeroPoint is the ‘ where is the location starting point that he applied all this at’? IMO . There is a ZeroPoint and Tarry Point intersection some where. It’s a word that is Key?

      • Alsetenash – your methods are well beyond that of many searchers. Carry on and may all your lines cross (triangulate, validate, and be confirmed) in the exact, correct location!


  63. FF said “Read the blogs for entertainment, and the poem like you were going to put an X on the map.”

    Great advise.

    • I think if you follow the clues it will lead to a X on the map.
      DRAWING Nye. I’m working on this after finding a secret map in a book I purchased called
      “Montana” 1942. It’s a strange book. But it had a hand drawn map in it. Yard sale find!

  64. JDA,

    Have any off you guy’s heard from JDA, I haven’t seen him posting any comments recently.

    Just wondering if he is OK, I enjoy reading some of the things that he writes.

    Ronnie the Scot

    • he stopped posting around the same time seeker stopped posting after Dal told seeker to shut up, not sure if it is related or not

    • I emailed JDA to see if everything’s OK – hopefully, he’ll respond here….I miss seeing his posts also.

      • I remember JDA said this on January 24 on “The Poem ” thread. Here’s’ JDA himself:

        “Seems like you have some good ideas there Tbug – Thanks for posting. I am “Laying Low” for a spell. I think that it is better that I listen to others instead of listening to myself yammer – At least for a while – JDA”

        I just found it.

    • On another thread JDA said he was going to talk less and listen more.

      Though its been quieter since seeker was put in timeout

    • Thanks all;

      I am fine – As I said, I think it better to listen to others for a while, instead of hearing myself yammer so much.

      I found that I had gotten testy with a couple of posters, and that that was not called for.

      I am here, I am just not responding much.

      Good luck to all, and TRY to STAY SAFE – COME ON SPRING!!! JDA

      • Good to hear JDA–Spring is just around the corner–You wouldn’t know it by the amount of snow I had to shovel in the past 2 days..Trying to stay safe and warm and fine tune my solve-Not chiming in as often…

      • JDA=
        returning to the blog, due to a hap in the notebook hd, now with a notebook borrowed until repair mine, but at last I continue in the state motto of New Mexico and COLORADO, whose my research tells me much, after all, NM until MONTANA motto in 2 trips are many hours made in a late afternoon, after all using an electric panel of energy where there is the famous OMEGA, ALPHA, as well as the white islet or goat or other animal of rocky mountains, old trees of 6500 years old 11200 years, Native American tribe with more than 1 thousand years that arrives until 3 thousand years, until that beautiful picture of the girl who spoke with me, some escuturas of its FENN that helps, what is missing is key word in the poem and a phrase in his 1 and second book that can help, also I can not forget his speech to the bell touch of his wife, that bought bell of ERIC, the measure of the cache 10x10x5 equal to a track and hour somewhere in the colorado, sitio and making which no longer exists, but its history remains somewhere in NM, Well your poem can be a park or mountain map and even could be used for an aviator, after all your FENN was a pilot of a f100 fighter, good or doing my review and back to help any one one that wants to use my information in their research.

  65. Good to see you are still here JDA. You are good man and a great example for others to follow. I hope you and your wife are still doing well. I hope your health is good too.

  66. When it comes to latitude and longitude, which resources do most use online? Is it a function of GE somewhere or something else?

    Thanks in advance,


    • On Google Maps, right-click anywhere on the map and select “What’s Here?” A little window will open with the name of the location you clicked (if any – it may say “unnamed location”), and underneath the name will be the latitude and longitude in that order.


  67. Would anyone like to talk about your effort worth the cold?
    For several years I had believed it meant getting wet, either going in water or going through water. Last year when FF said it isn’t under water some of my got it figured out evaporated. So does it even have anything to do with actually feeling cold?

    • hi meadowlark. listen here little buddy,
      effort worth cold
      alone in there- as in INSIDE.
      below home of Brown
      all of these tell me a basement. im thinking a big basement where the sun never shines. and of course the first thing that comes to mind is his (FF) statement about not being associated with a structure. OK, well guess what fellow bird brain. remove any structure built over a basement and the basement is still there. and no, a basement in and of itself is not a structure. basement and structure are two different things. a basement is a concrete lined hole in the ground. like a swimming pool. would you ever say that a swimming pool is a structure? NO!
      so yes Meadowlark, effort worth cold is in a basement at any time of year even summer where you will get a chill when you go down.

      i think.
      love your song btw.

      • WOW dodo!
        I can’t take that resting place serious.
        My loss, I guess.
        I don’t see mountains & smell pines.
        I’m afraid of basements and may be no place for the meek.

      • Dodo-
        Those who design structures refer to swimming pools as structures…
        I have often heard builders of in-ground swimming pools refer to them as “structures”…they have to be designed and engineered to withstand certain forces and certain loads…
        See this paper from Daniel Tobar at BYU…

        But that is not the only place where we can find swimming pools referred to as structures…
        Google “Swimming Pool Structure Design” and you will see many citations…
        By the way…your birdbath is also a structure…

        • thanks Dal.
          thought i’d throw this back at ya.
          definition of the word structure…

          verb- “the arrangement of and relations between the parts or elements of something complex.”
          noun- “construct or arrange according to plan; give a pattern or organization to.”

          well we can throw out the verb meaning of structure as it relates to Forrest’s statement about not being associated with a structure.

          FF- “its not associated with a structure so dont go digging up any outhouses.”

          and same statement with structure as a verb definition….
          FF- “its not associated with the arrangement of and relations between the parts or elements of something complex so dont go digging up any outhouses.”

          i dont know about your neck of the woods Dal but here where i live an outhouse is not a complex structure so the statement has no bearing whatsoever. in fact the word structure if FF intended to be a verb in this usage is nonsense.

          now used as a noun…
          FF- “its not associated with construct or arrangement to plan; give a pattern or organization to, so dont go digging up any outhouses.”

          again i just shrug my shoulders and think – what is he talking about?

          i suppose a simple mind can refer to any building or shack as a structure. like my birdbath.

          you are correct though Dal, technically an in ground swimming pool is a structure. select few in the engineering field would agree. while the rest of us dodo birds would not.

    • Meadowlark,

      I think the “worth the cold” could be one of the 9 clues.
      I wonder if it might refer to something like hidden behind a cascading spring, or behind some type of small waterfall in a little tributary.

      I try to envision what a special place might look like for Fenn, maybe a secluded spot back away from the Madison, to take a lunch break from fishing, or just relax and admire some beautiful surroundings, where no one else is bound to disturb him.

      Maybe, maybe not.

    • Hi Meadowlark: since “Your effort will be worth the cold” comes so late in the poem, and clues in the poem are allegedly consecutive, I lean more toward that line being a hint rather than a clue. Like you, I once assumed this was a reference to having to cross a creek or river — after all, there are a lot of “Fords” and crosses in Forrest’s stories — but I no longer do. At the time of year that I suspect Forrest hid the treasure chest, fording a river could be quite dangerous.

    • Meadowlark—-

      Have you ever heard someone say “the trail went cold”?

      IMO That is how Mr.Fenn is using the definition of cold. He is saying..”your effort will be worth following my trail” IMO

      Best regards;


    • Meadowlark,
      Maybe we have to go when the ice is frozen over the lake or pond to get to the chest, but then again Forrest does not want us to search in winter and should wait till there’s no mud.

      Maybe the cold of the bronze chest is worth the effort but he nudged us to wear gloves.

      Maybe we should search before the sun rises when it’s chilly.

      Maybe it’s the cold reception you get from the government when they want the treasure returned to them.

      Maybe cold refers to Creek On Left Dead or Dangerous etc…

      Maybe cold is the opposite of warm which Forrest said was comfortable.

      Seeing Forrest has tried to get us back in the box and the many straightforward comments, I think you will get wet at some point near where the treasure is.

      Wait little time with marvel gaze.

    • Just my opinion:

      “worth the cold” may simply be referring to the brass and the gold. The brass treasure chest is going to feel cold. What if Forrest left one of his brass bottles at the hiding place along with the TC? The gold will feel cold won’t it? The words that appear in the poem are – bold, old, cold, gold.

      Anyway, that is what I think it “might” be. Just an opinion.


  68. My take is you are going to have to cross a creek that has no bridge. I’m trying to wrap my mind around how 2 searches got within 200 feet with no more then 2 clues. Am I reading all of it wrong or are all the remaining clues within the last 200 feet. The other explanation would be they just stumbled past it without any correct clues.

    • I would guess they just happened by it as part of a broad area search. And probably more searchers that FF would not be aware of.

    • I believe they didn’t know where the were in the context of the clues, I also believe the 500’ and 200’ statements are in reference to elevation not distance, can’t back that up with anything tho lol , just a gut feeling

    • I believe FF has written some that some searchers had solved the first two clues. And stated that others had been within 200′. So these aren’t necessarily the same people, is how I interpret his pertinent statements.

  69. Random Fun hint to a hint/aberration…..its out on the edge for sure but with tradmark poetic irony. Imo.

    To promote the candy, company founder Otto Schnering chartered a plane in 1923 to drop thousands of Baby Ruth bars over the city of Pittsburgh — each with its own miniature parachute.[4][5]Thereafter, Schnering performed the parachute drops in various cities in over forty states.[4]
    As if to tweak their own official denial of the name’s origin, after Babe Ruth’s “called shot” at Wrigley Field in the 1932 World Series, Curtiss installed an illuminated advertising sign for Baby Ruth on the roof of one of the flats across Sheffield Avenue, near where Ruth’s home run ball had landed in center field.[10] The sign stood for some four decades before being removed.[11

    Although the name of the candy bar sounds like the name of the famous baseball player Babe Ruth, the Curtiss Candy Company traditionally claimed that it was named after President Grover Cleveland’s daughter, Ruth Cleveland.[3][4] The candy maker, located on the same street as Wrigley Field, named the bar “Baby Ruth” in 1921, as Babe Ruth’s fame was on the rise, 24 years after Cleveland had left the White House, and 17 years after his daughter, Ruth, had died. The company did not negotiate an endorsement deal with Ruth, and many saw the company’s story about the origin of the name to be a devious way to avoid having to pay the baseball player any royalties. Curtiss successfully shut down a rival bar that was approved by, and named for, Ruth, on the grounds that the names were too similar.[6]

    The whole article is great….as is with the history of Dr. Pepper, Fritos, and Grapette. ….if you find yourself on a rainy Sunday.

    • Jonsey, Sharing the history of the name Baby Ruth was great for any searchers new or old who hadn’t read this before and who search in NM. There’s a little town north of Mora named Cleveland that’s nestled in the foothills of the Sangre de Cristos, a prime search area for the past going-on-8 years. And they host an old mill that’s a neat touristy destination, too. I bet Forrest’s TTOTC and subsequent searchers increased the number of folks visiting this area.

      • Hello Cynthia. I believe Bandolier National Monument may have been a popular search area due to the Chase, too. The mention of Fritos in the book, the character of said product was known as the “Frito Bandito,” who wore bandoliers across his chest.

      • Thx Cyn….one thing that really stood out to me was that Grapette, Dr. Pepper, and Fritos (the latter 2 TX natives) are ALL from tiny family buisness, later trademarked and sold, and all surrounded by tradmark battles later on. Tamgents or not the coincidences jyst entertain me and fascinate me…. Inswear he does those things on purpose, even if just to get us thinking….I love it.

  70. National news media is reporting a positive identification on a body found downstream on the Arkansas river as that of Eric Asby. The news HEADLINES states he was hunting for Forest Fenn’s treasure. NOTHING WAS WRITTEN CONCERNING THE CIRCUMSTANCES OF ERIC”S ODD ACCIDENT, NOR HOW HIS FRIENDS NEVER CALLED THE POLICE!!!!! Inquiring minds have to wonder why good friends wouldn’t call for help. Was there some illegal activity going on? With friends like those,…who needs enemies? Is it true that he bought an inflatable raft from Walmart the ride the rapids of the Arkansas without even a life jacket?

    I believe it was a week later when an unrelated third party that witnessed the accident called police after not seeing any news reports of the accident.

    Unfortunately, reporting only a part of the story gives the treasure hunt a bad stigma. I personally feel the hunt has embellished the lives of thousands who have gotten off their couch and went to look for it in the Rocky Mountains. Unfortunately, that story doesn’t sell magazines or papers. IMO

    Best regards;


    • Billy, I believe this was discussed last August. I don’t know why the news agencies are talking about this again as I thought Eric’s remains had been identified last year. Anyway, you can go to a government site and find that Eric was probably on probation in Tennessee after doing time for drug violations. It doesn’t say if he wasn’t allowed to leave Tennessee but maybe that is why his so called “friends” never reported him missing. He was probably somewhere he wasn’t legally supposed to be. And now he’s dead, not because he was treasure hunting but because he picked friends that are total butt-wipes! The moral of this story: Choose your friends wisely!

  71. Blog is running poorly again. Going to reboot the server at 4:33. should be back up, if all goes well at 4:37

  72. Never mind…not going to restart. I see the problem. We are experiencing a deluge of visitors. I suppose over the Eric Ashby identification story.
    We had been seeing about 600 or so hits per hour and right now that number has more than doubled to about 1,800 hits per hour. That doesn’t seem like a high enough number to cause connection problems…but …but…but…

    I will leave things alone for now and see if the deluge passes soon…

  73. Your effort will be worth the cold, means imo that where
    the TC is, you will have to search in darkness, because it
    is off the trail where you are not supposed to be. It is cold
    at night at that altitude, and you have to use a flash light.
    If you find the TC you need to get out of there in a hurry,
    so you don’t get caught.

    • Out of all of the analysis about the last stanza the one I like the most is that it is about the chest. Worth the cold is the bronze chest that is cold to the touch similar to the bronze head that FF had the children touch in his gallery. In the wood refers to the wood lining of the chest. If you touch it, open it, and have your hands in it then you get title to it.

  74. I was just curious. I saw a thread called MEET-UPS 2018. Is there any chance we can meet people from FEDEX also? I mean it’s only fair.

    • As always… Sparrow,

      Your sense of humor is much appreciated (and as sick and twisted as my own).

      It’s part of why I can’t leave the Chase! LOL

      Hopefully, we’ll meet up some day!

      Best regards,


  75. Testing, testing, intestines, intestines..seems all the bodily functions are working ok now Dal,…..again, but time and this machine marches on. Coming in March to a blog near you, Winter Thoughts II. by TT

    It has been a fun and exciting 8th year for the 8 symbol sideways ∞ answers how deep is a hole? Who will bring in the magic box? Will it be this year? This is a very one sided conversation….Well he did say “simplify” and that is where we need to stay, a solution so simple a Kid can understand it but so complicated (sublime) my Engineer/Scientist friends from the Labs are baffled.

    This all Borders on simple and sublime. Hints and clues are different, but I am sure they both appear in our poem, and in the book, both categories undoubtedly appear, the simple I can spot like the joker with 4 other cards, the sublime is another story, Zap has my thoughts on the difference, how can the clues if followed correctly place you within a few steps of Indulgence? It takes understanding the hints to do that, IMO.

    How can many someone (searchers) be within 500′ yet for us to get to the exact spot, we must walk over a mile? why…lets see 5280′ plus or minus another 1000′ or so, why? Only a very few or even maybe just one searcher has been at 200’…and that 500′ was acknowledged by ff early in the Chase, came from emails? March 8th, 2013 see http://metro.co.uk/2013/03/08/forrest-fenn-and-the-raiders-of-the-stashed-gold-real-life-indiana-jones-stages-treasure-hunt-3531551/

    What I imagine is this scenario, a road, runway, train track or some type human trail traversing within 500′ and yet an obvious barrier, a ridge a canyon a cliff or similar precipice that requires one to access a route less hazardous, but a bushwhack using a cattle/animal trail easy enough for an eighty year old to navigate with 20 lbs once and 22 lbs a second time in one afternoon. Now where do I park my sedan?

    This is Odds and (dead) Ends is it not?


    • Tom, twice in one afternoon is wrong. He didn’t say that, you know that.

      Oh, and you park your sedan at the church,:)

        • Tom, because of the possibility of dual meaning. “it was done” in what? one afternoon or one trip, which was done in the afternoon. You know this.
          The thing that will answer this problem would be to know if f followed all the clues both times he went. This statement could very well be two separate days, or even the same day, where the one trip, the second, was done in the afternoon. One in the morning, done in the one in the afternoon. Two trips, both in the afternoon, with all that weight, his age, limits the distance of seclusion.
          We know he won’t go back down in the canyon a second time in one day, so, since our first trip would need to follow the clues, does the second only need to follow a few? That raises a question about, the clues must be followed in order, there is no other way.
          Or all the references of walking long distances. 6 hours to hide one of the most important things to him in two trips, with the weight, age, distance, and to a secluded place where he will not be seen, both times, from a start position that may yield to constant traffic, (cars or pedestrian), does not seem well thought out. To many risks.

          Look at what you said, “easy enough for an eighty year old to navigate with 20 lbs once and 22 lbs a second time in one afternoon.”

          No needed interpretation, flat out, you are saying two trips in one afternoon.

          And look at the ATF, “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon”.

          One afternoon or one trip? He doesn’t say.

          I was done in the trip that I took in the afternoon. The second trip. Or, I took two trips in the afternoon. See, we don’t know. Was the second trip done in the afternoon, yes, we are sure of that. It’s when he was done. He does not say that the first trip was made in the morning, afternoon, night, or an entirely different day.
          “Charlie read this and tell me what is wrong with my statement”, okay, you are saying that both trips are MADE in the same afternoon. F is saying that he was done on the second trip, and, it was in the afternoon.
          Tom, it’s how a lot of his statements are read. Remember, he doesn’t like commas…His rules, That’s why I said you know this. Hear me all and LISTEN good, right? Your statement isn’t listening to what f is saying, that’s all. It may very well be two trips in one afternoon, but also could be two trips, done in one, afternoon. I know, you’re just having a little fun, but you did ask,:)…

          • Charlie – you should look at question as well as the answer you are writing about.

            Question: Were both trips made on the same day/date?

            Answer: I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.

            How many trips from his car to the hiding place did he make? FF says it was two.

            When were these two trips made from his car to the hiding place? FF says it (the two trips to hide the treasure) was done in one afternoon.

            I am not sure how you can read it any differently than FF made 2 trips from his car to the hiding place to hide the treasure all in one afternoon.

            Another Q & A supports this:

            Question: It took you two trips from your car to get all the treasure to the hiding spot because it weighed 42 pounds?

            Answer: Yes

            FF has also commented “Please remember I was about 80 when I made two trips from my vehicle to where I hid the treasure” and “And when I took, when I hid the treasure chest, I had to make two trips because it weighed 42 pounds.”

            I guess I am not sold on your premise that it was two trips by car, which is perfectly capable of carrying 42 pounds of treasure in one trip to the spot were FF made the 2 trips to hide it.


          • LOL
            sorry, no disrespect, but sometimes some conversations remind me of some Monty Python sketches

            like the one in Life of Brian and the guy wants to be treated like a woman and have the right to have babies…

            REG: What’s the point of fighting for his right to have babies when he can’t have babies?!
            FRANCIS: It is symbolic of our struggle against oppression.
            REG: Symbolic of his struggle against reality.


          • Forgot this one:
            Question: You said it took you two trips to hide the treasure? Did you hide it two times, or did you carry it in the second time?
            FF Answer: I hid the whole thing in one spot. But it took me two trips to get to the spot with the weight of those—of the treasure chest.
            Follow-up Question: From the car to the spot?
            FF Answer: (Forrest Nods) Very special spot.

          • I lean toward agreeing with Charlie on this. Like so many of FF’s comments this one leaves the door open a little for wiggle room. He could have very easily said “I made two trips in one afternoon”. Because he chose to word it by saying “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon” he does not say when he started his first trip.

          • Aaron – if you (and presumably Charlie) want to believe that in one afternoon FF took two trips in his car to the spot where he left his vehicle to go hide the chest in his very special place, I’m fine with that. I don’t see why he would need to do so—or how such has anything to do with finding the chest, really—but I do like getting my brain warmed up for solving this poem via a little logical debate. I have’t seen any counterpoints or rebuttals to my position/side of the debate, though.

          • Bomarc, we have a couple of ATF comments that can theoretically help with determining a walking distance but there are problems with both IMO. You may be right and it may not have to do with finding the chest but worth discussing I think.

            1. “But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help” Problem: he doesn’t state that if “less than a few miles” was one trip or all of his walking which included two trips.
            2. “It was done in one afternoon” Problem: the door is open for when the first trip started IMO. If he said it was all done in one afternoon or if he said both trips where done in the afternoon then we could easily assume he started in the afternoon.

            Because of these I don’t know that we can be sure that it was all done in the afternoon and the entire walking distance was less than a few miles. We can assume maybe but not with certainty IMO.

          • I’ll throw in a possibility since I feel like a flipflopper now. Logically, taking the task of hiding the heavy trove in two trips from the car has made since up til now. Perhaps, the task at hand wasn’t just hiding it. Maybe the empty chest had to be precisely placed so as to permit viewing from live satellite or camera of sort. After returning home and making certain the site was perfect, a 2nd trip was justified for placing the treasure in the chest. The “hide” was completed that 2nd afternoon. I’m almost making friends with that theory. At the end of it all tho, why does it matter? Still have to follow the poem to get there.

          • Bow, I’m not going to repeat the post. All you did was repeat what was said, and that comment has multiple angles. If you want to believe 2 trips in an afternoon, be my guest. You then must drive to at least clue 3. “It was done in one”, that is the thing here. I never said he didn’t make two trips, what are you reading? I have no idea what angle you are coming from. When did I say any of what you are stating? You gave us a lot of ATF’s that say the same thing, if you cannot see the possibilities that are open, then again, you need to drive to at least clue 3. You are hindered by the fact that the distance is not great. That the possibility of being seen is high. You also need to answer if we need to follow all the clues, which f has said to do, it’s the only way. Your way, the second trip, you are taking a shortcut. I thought there were no shortcuts. You are following all 9 clues the first trip, and not all 9 clues the second trip. With no shortcuts, and the need to follow all 9 clues, please explain how you would do that. Knowing that f also said he would not go down in the canyon, back up, then down again. It sounds to me that you are just picking and choosing the comments that best fit you. So, like I said, be my guest…

          • “follow all the clues, which f has said to do”

            How literal does one “follow”?
            The answer to that is personal interpretation, opinion and choice, IMO.

            Calling the way another chooses to interpret the way to “follow” as a “shortcut” is also a personal interpretation, opinion and choice, IMO.

            We should be careful and responsible in throwing out absolutes on lines and words that have been presented so cryptically, IMO.

          • Bow, I still do not get your position. I think you believe that two trips were done, both in the afternoon. From 12:00p.m. to 6:00p.m. So two trips in 6 hours.

            Aaron – if you (and presumably Charlie) want to believe that in one afternoon FF took two trips in his car to the spot where he left his vehicle to go hide the chest in his very special place, I’m fine with that.

            Wait, what??? When did we even say something like that. And yes, I’m with Aaron on this one, he never said when he started the first trip. The only thing we can come away with from his comment is that the first trip he followed all the clues, that he wasn’t going to go down the canyon, then back up, then back down in the same day, So if you believe that both trips were in the same day, then the second trip does not involve following all the clues. The second trip could start at clue 3. So this leads to driving to at least clue 3 and parking your car. Could even be a later clue, but cannot be from clue 2. And thus, the second trip would be taking a shortcut. Which I thought there wasn’t any. That’s the same day, less options if in the same afternoon. You still have to answer for needing to follow all the clues. It’s impossible to do if the same day. Because of the in canyon, up canyon, back in canyon statement. To adhere to all he has said with this two trips topic, Different days is the only way that fits everything. You would follow all the clues, you would be done in one trip (the second) in the afternoon, you wouldn’t go in canyon, out canyon, back in canyon the same day. And, you still would be honoring his statement: took two trips from my car to the spot and it was done in one…………………….afternoon. (the second trip).
            Since you are taking the position of done in one afternoon, then it is you who needs to explain some of the ATF’s that do not support that thought. Please, explain the canyon comment with the “follow all clues” comment, with the comment of people figured out the first 2 clues but walked right by the chest comment, and make it so an 80year old man can do it in 6 hours. You are stuck at the canyon, you can’t park your car at clue 3 when at clue 2 you are walking. Your solve would have to entail that the canyon is not clue 2, that the canyon would not even be a clue. But the poem leaves one place, wwwh, and enters another that needed to be found, the canyon. The one day theory is rot with holes that just lead to impossible answers. Unless of course if you are picking and choosing which ATF’s to follow and which one’s your solve needs to ignore.

          • Charlie, I think you are misunderstanding me. I never said I believe he did it all in one afternoon. Because he stated that it was done in one afternoon my point is that we do not know when he started. We only know when he was done.

          • In one of FF’s earlier interviews such as -Lorene Mills Interviews Forrest Fenn | May 13, 2011- he stated there is 225 gold coins in the chest. Later he said there are 265 gold coins in the chest. Anyone else notice this?

            It’s easy simple to error when we speak or write something at any moment. It’s easy to misinterpret things too. IMO .

            I think the two trips from his car just gives an idea of distance . IMO .

          • From Fundamental Guidelines

            Important Information updated
            June 26th 2017

            “If you can’t make two trips from
            your car to your solve in several
            hours, then don’t go.”

          • D. Crockett has cut to the heart of the issue. Why do so many grasp at straws trying to overcomplicate Forrest’s words? He hid the darned chest in one afternoon, period. Accept it. He didn’t walk 20 miles. He parked. He walked to his spot with the gold and goodies minus the chest and hid them. He walked back to his car. He then grabbed the chest and walked back to the hiding spot, put the gold in the chest plus the key, closed the lid, walked back to his car, and had a good chuckle. Probably took him a total of less than 4 hours. That’s my take anyway; your timing and mileage may vary, but I just don’t get the innuendo that this was a full-day or multi-day exercise.

    • JohnR, I have always, since 2011 believed that when Forrest gives out an actual “Hint” that he plays an old Native American trick, it is called a “Howeka”, a trickster, jester, a joker, it is a living act spawned by a Kachina Spirit, Practiced in ceremonies of sacred nature, especially in Pueblo Societies, this mythical spirit will trick you into believing something that is not true, an example in Forrest Fenn’s case TTOC it is the (misleading) statement of the war in “For Whom The Bell Tolls” ff alludes to it being WW1 when he and we knew it was actually “The Spanish Revolution” so why did he try to trick us? Because the joker was giving us a hint, a gift, much like the Howeka an actual person playing a Kachina at Pueblo Ceremonies, he tricks you and leaves you a gift, sometimes food sometimes jewelry or pottery.

      I have a lot of experience from my own tribe, and living in New Mexico for most of my years this style of trick and treat is common, and Forrest knows and further admits that Hemingway is his favorite writer, so what is the Hint or Gift? I think it is Borders, but when he said that Salinger’s “The Catcher in the Rye” was something he placed on his desk to impress he was playing the joker, what landed on Time magazine might hold a hint, can you guess that one?

      Read the first line of TTOC, “Life is a game of poker. Happiness is the pot. Fate deals you four cards and a joker. And you play whether you like it or not”.

      ff is the joker IMO


      • Interesting also that befire writing TTOTC F delivered a eulogy for Mike Kammerer…that poker quite was the last part of that speech. You can find it in the way back machine on oldsantafetrading website.

      • Mr. Terrific –

        I believe your assumptions are correct.What tribe are you from? Is there any chance you are Tiwa?
        Inquiring minds would like to know…..

        Best regards;

        Billy and the deputy

        • Muskogee, AKA Creek Nation, closely allied with Seminole and Cherokee. Originally found in South Eastern US, Alabama, Florida Georgia. ..Reservation Oklahoma see trail of tears or 500 nations..

          • Dear Mr. Terrific–

            Living here in Kaw country…I know of the trail of tears. The one thing I agreed with our former president, was to retire Jackson from the $20.

            Best regards;


      • Mr. Terrific-

        I have been in contact with my leprechaun friends. They say “the joker” is the lord of the gnomes. They say he also knows the secrets of the mountain and in particular where the gold is hidden. He controls the weather too, so to be careful and not to make him mad. Then they started arguing about whether he was a turnip farmer or a wizard. ..https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1i7ciBgzbYI

        Curious, don’t you think?

        Billy and the deputy

  76. Sorry if this has been posted,
    but, 23 is the lic. plate tag number designating SUBLETTE COUNTY,
    WY. and has been so since at least 1975
    or before. Jusr a thought.
    Yep, sage, pines, and more critters and creeks than you
    can shake a stick at, plus good fishing, and one heck of a big area.

  77. Just read the comments about this guy Eric Asby.

    No one can blame Forrest or the Chase for any death, if anyone goes out looking for the T.C then so be it.

    I’m no expert on the Rockies, but unfortunately injuries and even deaths do happen, however if you go out prepared and don’t take risks then I believe that you will be ok.

    Forrest has repeatedly said that the T.C is not in a dangerous place and I for one believe him 100%.

    It’s typical of the media one minute there all over Forrest to give more hints, the next unfortunately if there is a death they are trying to put the blame on the chase.

    Anything to sell a story.

    We don’t have anything like the chase in Scotland, however every year especially in the winter time there is always someone that is seriously injured or has died in the hills.

    This is due to either being inexperienced, not wearing the correct gear or taking one chance to many.

    However I have no doubt that if we had a Treasure Chest hidden in the hills the media would be blaming, we’ll I’ll let you guy’s figure that one out?

    Take care guy’s

    Ronnie the Scot

    • I get more worried about my drive, almost 2000mi one way.

      Highways are way more dangerous than mountains. At 80mph your life won’t even have time to flash before your eyes.

        • My truck is at 380,000, so 2,000 is like a warm-up lap.
          Yeah, I qualify as a redneck in a pickup, but only 2 kids.
          That I’m aware of.

          • Medowlark,

            Does that mean that you don’t qualify to go on the chase, as you are ten kids short.

            Ha Ha

            Ronnie the Scot

          • I think it means I’m qualified to go looking for it, just not quite qualified to find it.

            I haven’t given it that much thought,
            Maybe I should try for 10 more.
            Thrill of the chase can mean lots of things I guess.

  78. Mr. Fenn , Made this statement, “there are hints in the book (TTOTC), to help unlock the clues in the poem” If a searcher wouldn’t know they had the right solve until they found the chest, does the unlock statement simply help to identify what the clues are in the poem ? But not the meaning of the clues?

  79. IMO the right Key can unlock a clue, but once inside there can be two more clues, one right, and one wrong, the correct keys should unlock and identify, to the next step naturally without any meanings. Every person can have a different set of meanings for the same clue.
    Jeopardy gives us the answers, we come up with the correct question?

  80. There are four (4) keys that unlock clues – I believe some searchers have located one (1) but that’s not the only one. IMO

    • Where do you come up with 4 keys? It’s very interesting just curious as to what led you to there being 4 ?

      • The poem, imagination with some logic, and FF’s books have led me to that theory….of course, that theory and $4 might buy a coffee at Starbuck’s…

  81. does 122.60 mean anything to anyone? this is just another trial and error based on some logic…

      • dear crickets,

        uh- i know i can’t explain where this is coming from… but… anyone ?

        what about newn dos





        my only other thought is with this is the dewey decimal system… doesn’t make sense. starting over.

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