The Nine Clues…Seventy Nine

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This page is closed to new comments. To continue the conversation please go to the latest Nine Clues page.

This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Forrest has told us that  “Begin it where warm waters halt” is the first clue. What is the next clue.

612 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…Seventy Nine

    • 9=9

      I’m responding to your question on the previous page.

      To me Gut is a fishing reference.
      As is Simplify.
      As is Where Warm Waters Halt

      I don’t take F’s statement for mean that he thinks the TC will be found this year.

      Lugnitz

  1. Seeker you say “IF his use of “miles” refers to less than a single mile… imo that would be a deliberate misleading.”

    Really?! This is a treasure hunt! How else do you vaguely tell some desperate treasure hunter hoping to gain some advantage over the lead dog?

    50 yards x 4 is 0.11 mileS. That is plural and it is not misleading.

    Speaking of treasure hunt theme, did you ever consider your interpretation of “walk” is not what Fenn was hinting at? I think Fenn is pretty clever with those quotes, he seemed to have sucked more than one in to interpreting as you have. He must be having a ball back home reading your replies.

    Oh, one last thing, Fenn said the last clue can only be solved on site. Unless you have been on site physically searching, I think the odds of him referring to you are “astronomical”

    • 9=9,
      Seeing you took the time to post this twice, I have to ask how you get eleven hundredth [.11] of a mileS? There’s no such animal… it of a mile.
      This is exactly why I stated that the use of mileS, in fenn’s answer, would indicated more than a single mile is involved… whether or not, it’s two round trips, one trip, or a completed tasked. Less than a ‘few’ can not be less than a single, by any means, few means two or more.
      I highly doubt fenn would use those words “Few” and Miles” in the hope of keep anything ‘vague’… if he didn’t actually mean MileS and less than a Few.
      That’s like say there are more than 9 clues in the poem but fenn didn’t want to say more than 9 ~ because this is a treasure hunt. I really don’t see your logic in your comment that less than a few miles could be under a single mile… it would be deliberately misleading IF true.

      As far as fenn usage of “walk”… that is not the only comment he refers to with walking, in regards to, what he tells us he did, and what other searchers did. But sure, I have thought of other things about those comments in general… would you like to share your thoughts, instead of pretending to know what fenn is thinking, at home about my post?

      • Mr Seeker, I sense your sensitivity. I previously provided the answer to which you seek, I am confident you will catch on and figure it out.

        I explained previously how I got 0.11 miles, please reread my comments and do the math. Why did you choose to convert it to a fraction of a mile, when a decimal is legitimate?

        If we are going progress, you are going to have to open your mind and understand there is more than one way to look at the poem and Fenn’s words.

    • 9=9,
      I’ve always understood Fenn’s comments on distance the same way. “less than a few miles” is a distance between 0 and a few miles. Likewise, when he says searchers have passed within 200′ of the chest, that’s between 0′ and 200′.

      • UpInTheAir,
        We agree, I believe many others have that view as well and that is why I was so surprised to hear Mr. Seeker take such an odd stance and to imply Fenn’s words are deception is mind boggling.

        • Hold on… 9=9,
          I never said fenn’s words were deception or even misleading… I said, the way you explain “miles” to mean less than a single mile and a “few” less than two, for interpretation… would be misleading if true.

          A few mean two or more, there is no other usage for it… MileS is more than one mile there’s no other usage. fenn has also stated, in so many words, he wouldn’t lead a searcher toward or away from the chest. So I take his action of hiding the chest to be more than a single mile of hiking.

          This isn’t about interpretation as much as factual word meaning.. such as the phrase; I walked through the door… when actually I walk through the doorway. I think fenn would know the difference even if ya’ll don’t.

          There is only so much bending anyone can do with words and phrase… to say a few is under or lower or less than one, or miles is less then ‘a’ mile is completely unfounded for any possibility of interpretation. It just can not be, without being deliberately misleading is that answer… IF true.

          • Seeker I get the feeling you just like to argue. If you wish to believe black is white I see no reason to carry this further. Let’s take this back to the beginning and unwind all your twisting. Less than a few miles means what? Is not 0 less than a few? If I have 10 cents in my pocket and I tell you I have less than a few dollars am I not correct? Is 25 cents not less than a few dollars?
            Sure I am not telling you precisely how much but the logic is sound.

            Why don’t we just ask everyone else here. Everyone – is 25 cents less than a few dollars?

          • If we’re going to play the what’s in my pocket game, you have to have the question first… right?

            2 “dollar” 4 “dollarS” 10 dollarS?

            To say I have less than less than a few dollarS would indicate that you would have at least a single dollar by using the word ‘few’ in conjunction with the value of ‘DollarS,’ or it would be misleading with intent to do so, when you know you don’t have any dollars, but only a coin.

            Your example is correct in a broad ‘statement,’ BUT not correct if ‘asked as question’ and you add the “dollar” and “few” knowingly knowing it would not be remotely true to the question.

            The question is just as important as the answer, it it not?

            My example is; fenn told the classroom he would answer the questions as presented, right?
            They asked when he hid the chest… “summer” was the answer. If he hid the chest in in February on a hot summer like day… is that misleading? or because it felt like summer that would be ok?

            In other comments; fenn has indicated to “pack it in for the winter” “wait for the mud to dry” and other similar comments, but IF fenn hid the chest in any other month out side summer months… is that not misleading to what he has stated prior?

            The ‘really’ point to all of this is what I think your skipping over… why do we ask question and fenn voluntarily answers… If the answers are going to be so far off track [ example summer to winter months, few miles to under a mile ] Why do we bother to ask these question if we think few can mean 0 or MileS can be less than a single mile, and be true to the question asked…

            LOL… that is force fitting 101 to one’s solve, or very misleading [deliberate] in the answer to the question, IF true.

            So just for fun I’d like other to way in on this as well… because… some on the blog would like to believe there are more than 9 clues indicated by fenn… so, this is a curious inquiry to what many searchers would think about this conversion we are having…

          • Seeker no use to rebutt. You have made up your mind. While we wait for the judges to weigh in I have two things to think about. If you were Fenn and someone is trying to get material info from you and you don’t want to be specific. How do you answer?

            And Fenn thinks he can get the treasure when he said he can only walk 50 yards without resting. How does that translate into more than a mile and remeber this is a 4way trip? Logically How do you see a minimum 8 mile round trip for Fenn to hide the treasure as plausible?

          • Seeker I think I have the reason we can’t agree. You are using implied logic and I am using absolute logic. If this wasn’t a treasure hunt I would agree with you 100%. I believe a good treasure hunt tricks us into thinking a certain way – the implied way. I also agree with your previous statement that many will be surprised when they see the final solution.
            End of commentary …

          • 9=9: Seeker just has his own unusual definition of what “less than” means. Converting his words to math: 3 < 4, 2 < 4, 0.5 is not < 4.

          • Zap
            I am starting to figure him out. He is more of a literal thinker. All those Fenn contradictions must have raised a red flag by now. I mean there is that “no riddle “ scrapbook but yet FF says you have to solve the riddle in the poem. That would drive me nuts.

          • Zap ~ ‘Seeker just has his own unusual definition of what “less than” means. Converting his words to math: 3 < 4, 2 < 4, 0.5 is not < 4.

            If you want to talk about "less than" anything, don't ya need a reference to less than "something"?

            You pick math/numbers off the top of your head for an example…
            show an example of how a "few miles" can be less than a single mile… keeping with the definitions of the words fenn, 'used as indicator' to answer a question related to how far he walked.

            That gave me a laugh Zap "unusual definition" when you overlooked / left out the actual indicator to the distance mentioned… that was convenient.
            What color was the bear?

          • Seeker, you need to “simplify.” “I walked less than a few miles” means Forrest could have walked as many as 5 miles (maybe 6 if you really want to stretch the meaning of “more than two, but not much more”), and as few as 0 miles. Yes zero. However, since logic tells us that he didn’t park right next to where he hid the treasure, I think it’s safe to say that he walked at least 200 feet (one way), or a minimum of 800 feet total. Logic also tells me he did not walk more than two-and-a-half miles (one way) from his car to the treasure, since he could not have walked 10 miles in “several hours.”

          • Zap, you are underestimating him, not a wise decision…And, I thought he wanted to get people out and about. Just seems funny he would think that way and then hide the chest within shouting distance of where you park your car. Hey, I’m not knocking your solve, just saying it’s probably wrong…JK.
            What do we have “to walk”?, How far do we have “to walk”? What distance do we have “to walk”? Just need to answer what we need “to walk”. Right…??? (I think he tells us).
            With the way f said that comment that he walked……
            the context one comes away with is that he’s talking miles. 0 would not come into play, in the context that f said it. He’s talking miles, not feet, yards, inches… Miles. So, one would be the minimum. If he wanted us to think less than 1 mile, he would have worded it differently. Do we really think f walked 0.11 miles or whatever? You guys keep thinking that way, I sure don’t mind. Keep looking underwater, you might find something…

          • There’s 5 apples on a table, I own less than a few. What is the minimum amount I own?……………1.

          • Charlie,
            You said, “If he wanted us to think less than 1 mile, he would have worded it differently. ”

            You assume Fenn is wanting to help us solve this. That is not how treasure hunts work and Fenn’s track record confirms this.

            As far as your apple example, the minimum you own is 0 (there is no evidence to support you own any apples) and it is not a good analogy because apples are integers and distance is never precisely an integer.

            You are welcome to continue to think otherwise, I have no interest in changing your mind, I just thought others might appreciate hearing the other side.

          • Charlie: I underestimate Forrest in nothing. My rejoinder to Seeker was purely a case in logic. Seeker was the one placing limits on the distance (e.g. has to be a mile or more), not me. Apparently you want to place minimum distance limits as well, even when Forrest never has. That’s your choice, but not sage to do so IMO.

          • Seeker,
            Few does not mean two or more….in fact “few” has no number assigned to it, hence, indeterminate/vague. And, it could be one, along with it is used with “a”.
            Few: more than some, but not many. You will also find that there is no numbers assigned to some or many.
            So, to say that, “A few mean two or more, there is no other usage for it…”, would be incorrect by lack of due diligence…
            I hope this helps a “few” have a better understanding, which could be one!
            dean

      • @UpInTgeAir wrote: – “when he says searchers have passed within 200′ of the chest, that’s between 0′ and 200′.”

        Apparently Forrerst doesn’t use ‘within’ with that definition in mind.

        April 28, 2015 – “The people that have been at 200 feet from the treasure didn’t know that they were there….. They were searching for the treasure, but they didn’t know that they were within 200 feet.”

        Aug. 11, 2015– “I don’t know of anyone that’s inside of 200 ft, but you know, I don’t know, they tell me where they are, and some of them exactly where they are, and so that’s how I know that.”

        Feb. 4, 2016 – “I don’t know that anyone has been closer to the treasure than about 200’.”

        • Way to freeze the conversation Loco…lol… I guess that answers that. Good to see you back Seeker, I see you fixed your spell checker…. Wow, Seeker is back, Loco has posted more in the passed 5 days then the hole year, There’s been a “Yates” sighting, what’s next?

        • Not that it really makes too much of a difference…folks should probably GOOGLE the correct definition of “a few”. It might be surprising to some.
          The correct decipher of the clues in the poem is going to point/lead a searcher right to the treasure…reading into vague answers given by Fenn and debating the loophole finders is maybe entertaining at best.

          • In “I never go shopping”, Mr. Fenn’s “few” referred to 5 items in the shopping cart. His definition may vary, of course.

          • ken,
            Few can be tricky in its usage…
            put the word ‘the’ in front of few, it can mean one or two or more, or the minority… Only we have indicators fenn used less than and MileS.

            But I disagree with reading into your ‘vague answers’… while we don’t have exact or very specific measurements… having his comment and other comments associated with it, might help to keep a reasonably right solve/theory from going haywire.

            Until recent, many had the ideas that stanza one was the holder of the first clue… while other thought – with reasoning- stanza two holds the first clue… Now we have the answer, which I’m sure many enjoyed to have verification on, and not just a good hunch. [ thanks Loco ] Can you imagine the time and money on wasted theories that saved alone…

            If we don’t attempt to utilize these ATF comments, what’s the point in begging for more bones? right?

            Attempting to understand fenn’s comment is half the fun anyways… So, in this case, whatever your view is on that comment… we know fenn “followed the clues” at the time he hid the chest, and what his actions where. Before we didn’t even know if fenn took the same route as we are told to, didn’t know the time of year, didn’t know its not underwater, or the distance he relays he walked ‘following the clues’

            Yet many will use the crutch that this is a treasure hunt and anything goes, or fenn only tells 85% of the truth, etc etc. That’s fine with me if all, many some, wants to believe that… I’m going to take fenn at his word… he won’t point anyone toward or away from the chest, not will he give useful clues… But lets face facts… he did at least one with telling us the first clues is WWWH in 2013. Another that WWWH is not a dam dam, etc.

            The guy says “less than a few miles” I’m going to believe miles is an indicator to the shortest distance being over one mile of walking.

            But I’m sure you know what I’m going to say next… was that walking out the clues or walking to the clues?
            lol …Pop another can of worm for dinner.

            Just food for thought folks

          • Seeker…That’s what I missed not seeing you around. You are not afraid to jump in the clown car and get your fingers and toes all smashed up having a few rounds. Hurt feelings are overrated!
            You are 100% correct IMO that hashing things over and looking at possibilities can open up a subject for new concepts.
            My point of that post was merely to emphasize the “correct” definition of “a few”… because the back and forth was showing that posters could not even agree on what it means before furthering their personal theories.
            Fenn has admitted he looked up “several” and then makes a joke about the vague definition…so I would wager he has more than likely seen the definition of “how many is a few”. Interesting that “a few” is on the bottom end…before “a couple”. I still do not think it matters too much.
            If a searcher can figure out wwh for certain…or with high confidence from the poem…and marry it to a map…I believe the rest of the clues will fall in place. Keep in mind the comment about being more than half way after figuring out wwh.
            Look further about why the “s” is necessary on the word “mile”….that is interesting as well.
            GCG has a comment about all this 200’/500’…1st clue, 2nd clue down below I’m gonna go pick through.
            Thanks for commenting…

        • Hey Loco – I didn’t tell f ‘exactly’ where I went last year or the year before… that 200 feet would probably be officially less if I had. 😉

          Come to think of it, f has not been sure of any real progress the last two years… hmmm. 🙂

          And no, I really am not that full of myself to claim such things without THE proof…

          • LOL!! – – “And no, I really am not that full of myself to claim such things without THE proof…”

            JCM, lotsa folks makin’ claims, Just like every year…..But, I had a gut feelin’ ya’d say that….stir….stir….stir 🙂

        • Loco –

          This seems like a good a spot as any to put this.

          I do realize you are too cool to talk to me.

          To clarify my version of where the TC is relation to WWWH.

          I will park NEAR the spot I am referring to as WWWH, the starting spot. Standing there I am about 500 feet from the treasure. From there I can easily get to s pot with in about 200 feet. I think Fenn may be referring to these two spots. What are the cahnces I am correct? Slim to zip!

          What I cannot figure out is how Fenn actually got to the TC location. Anyone can get within 200 feet. From there I cannot see the way forward.

          I don’t have any idea whether I am on the correct trail.
          Cheers

          Lugnutz

    • I disagree … 0.11 is 0.11 mile or 11 hundredths of a mile … not of plural miles it is a fracton of 1 mile … not of plural miles. To say 11 hundredths of miles is incorrect.

      • Sorry it didn’t post under the comment I intended … but if following the thread you know what I an referring to.

  2. If you don’t think there are 9 clues in the poem, then you should rethink or give up.

  3. If one truly does not have the correct wwh, the poem will be useless for the searcher, nothing will be truly married in the poem.

    Some have been close but they truly did not know what the blaze is.

    Happy hunting!

    I’m going to have some sips of bourbon and relax.

    P.S. Seeker I can’t answer your questions on the most recent Nine Clues, answering would be a complete giveaway. 🙂

  4. “Begin it where warm waters halt…”

    Answer: a basin.

    If someone were to plug in my answers to Forrest’s clues given throughout this blog, they could readily guess where I’m betting Indulgence lies…

    Looking forward to another season on the hunt.

    ~ Wisconsin Mike

    P. S. I hear there will be a Fennboree in 2018; sometime in late June?…

  5. My thoughts:

    1. Begin it where warm waters halt
    2. And take it in the canyon down
    3. Not far, but too far to walk
    4. Put in below the home of Brown
    5. From there it’s no place for the meek
    6. The end is ever drawing nigh
    7. There’ll be no paddle up your creek
    8. Just heavy loads and water high
    9. If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down your quest to cease.

    But tarry scant with marvel gaze, just take the chest (don’t tell the park superintendent) and go in peace!

    • 1: Begin it where warm waters halt
      And take it in the canyon down,
      2: Not far, but too far to walk.
      Put in below the home of Brown.

      3: From there it’s no place for the meek,
      The end is ever drawing nigh;
      4: There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
      Just heavy loads and water high.

      5: If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
      Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
      6: But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
      Just take the chest and go in peace.

      7: So why is it that I must go
      And leave my trove for all to seek?
      The answers I already know,
      I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.

      8: So hear me all and listen good,
      Your effort will be worth the cold.
      9: If you are brave and in the wood
      I give you title to the gol

      • Interesting choice but I’m not sure about the last stanza as Fenn could not remember it when he was asked to recite the poem at the bookstore, he had to read it from the printout. I think the clues would be indelibly printed in his memory. Also in the NZ radio broadcast he said ‘Begin it where warm waters halt is the first clue’. So as he clearly intended to give this away, if the clue was ‘Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down’ would he not have said this? As he is very careful with his words and what he gives away I think so.

      • Interesting take. Most believe that the clues are all contained in stanza’s 2,3, and 4 but who knows for sure. Too bad FF hasn’t confirmed what the last clue is as he did the first.

    • I came to the same conclusion as Allen K as to the numbering. That said, almost every other stanza in the poem seems to contain a hint.

  6. I guess I have to say this is my opinion!
    When the chest is found, it
    will be shown that, ” Put in below the
    home of Brown ” and ” From
    there it’s no place for the meek ”
    are not clues, they are not needed
    to find the TC, they are only hints!
    ” Just heavy loads and water high ”
    are only hints. You can call this what
    you like, but if one of you finds the TC
    you will agree with what I have said.
    What I am telling you is, that you need
    to find different clues ! The clues you are
    using now will not take you to the TC.
    A lot of people will read this, some will
    be smart enough to start looking within
    the poem, for the right clues, not in the
    stanzas.You all have the first two clues.
    None of you have the next four clues.
    The seventh clue is ” There’ll be no paddle
    up YOUR creek ” the last two clues you
    don’t have. Have a search with the right
    clues ! Make it simple.
    Good luck !

    • Anthony –

      I am open to your ideas.

      For starters, may I ask what you are saying WE ALL know to be the second clue?

      Lugnutz

      • Lugnutz, most people agree that,
        “ Begin it where warm waters halt “
        Is the first clue. The second is,
        “ And take it in the canyon down “

        “ Not far, but too far to walk “
        ( for an 79 year old eman ) this is a hint, or general information. Lugnutz, I have to be ecareful or
        you will get information without working of it. Do you’d think f,
        would hide a TC, and not give you
        the area by name that you are to search ? People are searching in
        four states, why? The poem tells eyou where the search area is, by
        Name!

        • Anthony –

          Thanks for the response.
          You will find that chasers disagree on which line contains the second clue. Of course there are many opinions of what Canyon Down refers to.

          I disagree with lots of people on the meaning of Too Far To Walk. To me this does not refer to distance.

          I am interested to hear more, maybe you have some new ideas about how the location is revealed through the poem. That’s really cool!

          Lugnutz

    • Anthony,

      You said, “None of you have the next four clues.” I don’t know how you know that, its pretty presumptuous. That may be for your partial solve, or complete solve, which ever it is. Where is the proof that statement you made is true?

      Just asking 🙂

      • Hi CharlieM,
        For you, again, I must say what I
        say is my opinion again. In my
        opinion, I have found the clues.
        I have been boots on the ground
        over twenty times. After I found the search area, I know where wwwh,
        was, I used the first two clues, with the third clue, which was where to go. Every clue after that except the seventh clue. I found with boots on the ground, and then studied the poem, and then found the clues in the poem. CharlieM, I am close,
        I have the area, I have the blaze,
        but again, I may not be as close as
        I think? May 15th will tell. About
        then, I will post it.

  7. To Sherif Billy,

    Agree 100% about crossing the stream and heading up creek. The blaze will be on the bank about 6 feet up. Remember the bear story? I think it to be an analogy of the trip with the two things thrown up on the bank (chest and treasure).

    Sorry to get back to you so late. Had a busy day. Good to see someone else sees things the same way I do.

    Good luck.

    • Tarheel—
      IMO The deputy and I are the only ones who have seen the blaze. It is hidden in the trees and can’t be seen with google earth. There is however a geological marking nearby which can be seen by google earth. If you explore that area you will find a few artifacts from f including an olive jar or two. Be very careful crossing the creek. Although not too deep, it’s fast moving with a strong current. I didn’t even try during the snow melt last spring. Be safe!

      Best regards;

      Billy

  8. Ken –

    I am going out to Montana 4th of July.

    I don’t think I will retrieve the treasure though.

    I plan to enjoy running with the trout.

    Lots of people find treasure, but very few catch a 20 inch trout.

    Lugnurz

  9. Fenn has said that ‘Begin it where warm waters halt’ is the first clue but surely the first line gives something away…he has gone alone in there, ie it must be hidden in something that you can go into. eg a cave, a glade etc. Also out of the range of the obvious 9 is ‘brave and in the wood’

  10. “The end is ever drawing nigh;” factual statement with regards to the Fenn Poem. It is also a navigational term/statement (imo, experience), for those with map reading skills. I’m a ground pounding combat grunt for those of you who like to use “boots on the ground” and I do realize that other searchers out there are veterans, (thank you for serving and welcome home).
    As I recall, Mr. Fenn referred to, “connecting the lines/ threading a tract through the wiles of nature and circumstance to the treasure.”
    For those with a sense a direction, it’s time to ruck-up, pop smoke and move out! There comes a time in patrol when the point holds a fist in the air and everyone following knows exactly what to do. Moving under cover and concealment keeps us out of the kill zone, and so does knowing your exact location/situation at all times.
    There are many techniques and terms that we must be familiar with during movement. We use the information given and then go to work with our resources, experience and knowledge to narrow the objective (TC) to pinpoint accuracy. At times, we use reference points, triangulate and continue the march. Some of us can do this forward, backwards and blind folded.
    Here-in lies the problem: we ground pounders use numbers/GC, (and a few known points if we are fortunate) to get to our objective, not poems.
    The Challenge: The Poem and “Forest Fenn’s hidden treasure is somewhere to be found within the highlighted region of the Rocky Mountains on this map.”
    Question: Did the above Challenge statement blow right past you, or did you grasp it “listen good?”
    My final thought: Page 265 of TFTW contains all the information needed to find the TC. Now, ruck-up, pop smoke and move out!

    Best of luck to all searchers; this is the year the chase will end! IMHO

    I’ll be in WY in June!

    dean

    • dean- here is the bigger challenge. understanding that TREASURE and the chest of the poem are not the same thing. your challenge then becomes secondary now doesnt it.

      i think.

      (bear with me folks, breakin in another newbie)

      • Ha! Good one dodo bird, it’s been awhile since I’ve been called an FNG…..
        So, if I understand you correctly (as you are breakin’ me in lol), you are the ONE that Mr. Fenn thinks will find the treasure this summer. Well, thanks for taking the time to speak to me; future multi-millionaire. I mean…I’m just honored beyond words. So, what will you spend the money on? Wow! Celebrity status just around the corner for ya….woot, woot!!
        Good for you Dodo Bird, you have my sincere congratulations! I guess I’ll just go back to being my boring self…..yak, yak, yak!!
        Just in case of the remote possibility that you’re off just a tad. You know, on that whole breast of the poem thing…..maybe I’ll stick around for while.
        I have some draws that seem really appealing, especially the one below the elevated H2O. ; )
        Man, do I sound like a newbie or what…..
        Okay, I’ll stop already……will you just go get the treasure already!! You’re killin’ me over here!!

  11. #1 wITh
    #2 it
    #3 it
    #4 IT’s
    #5 wITh
    #6 it
    #7 it
    #8 tITle
    #9 (physical presence needed)

  12. There are 9 clues that if followed PRECISELY, will lead to indulgence, but if you believe there are only 9 clues in the poem you should stay home and play canasta…imo

    • or follow the poem precisely. I wrote a poem with 9 clues that if followed precisely. Not that it matters, but he could be saying the poem.

    • Lets get anal for a second guys;
      “So I wrote a poem ‘containing’ nine clues ‘that if’ follow precisely ….”

      Not unlike my points of argument to fenn talking about few and miles above with 9equals9… “containing” seems to indicate the poem is the avenue to present 9 needed clues for deciphering. 9=9, right?
      The real question is; how many clues produce a reference to a place/places vs. direction, instructions or anything else?

      • Is it that time already, hint/ clue debate…My two cents, when the clue has something to do with a place, there will be multiple avenues of information that make up that one clue. When you look at a distance or a direction, only one frame of reference.
        It’s such a touchy argument that it makes it a lot easier to just think of how to solve the poem. Forget the clues, I think trying to solve for such an unknown is pointless. Case in point, we only know of two of them.

        You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh, and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
        No I don’t madam, sorry. f
        Those two we know of, there is no answer for. At least according to that ATF. So I guess it leads to the question, if we are not solving for clues, what are we solving for?
        The spot.
        I think a searcher will know where the end spot is before they know wwwh is. The cop-out to that statement is the ATF about you won’t know you have the first clue correct until you have the chest. With this way of thinking, the question is more like, how many references are there to find the spot?
        If he didn’t tell us that there were 9 clues, nobody would be looking for 9 clues, they would be trying to solve the poem. Just because f said there are 9 clues, it turns everything upside down, around, and twists it.

        “So I wrote a poem ‘containing’ nine clues ‘that if’ followed precisely ….”

        The worse bit of info he could have given us. Best in regards to the chase though. It’s not even clear if it’s the 9 clues or the poem that you follow. (even though we know it’s an either/or answer).To think, if a searcher is not going to know they have the first clue correct, how can they move to the 2nd, then 3rd, then 4th? When guessing and playing a hunch has no merit in the chase. Especially when the info to solve some of the clues, just is not there. It makes solving for just the clues, well, pointless. It may not be something everyone thinks, but in thinking about it, lol, makes sense.
        I wrote a poem, where the info for the first clue is not there. You cannot solve for this clue, but it’s where you start, okay, so go find it.
        And then there are those that say, “I’ve solved for the first clue”. Now if you were f, what would you do? Laugh, okay pal, I just said the info is not there. Yeah, but I solved it… Lol, On to the second clue then I guess. Oh, you cannot solve for the blaze eith…..
        I know what the blaze is, I solved it…Lol, okay. Just look down from there, that’s it. Lol, yea, okay, guess I didn’t have to write two more stanzas then. (sorry, going off on a tangent, at work)…

        • Charlie,

          I agree with “…just think of how to solve the poem”. IMO, searchers waste too much time on clues versus hints versus numbers.

  13. FF said there are nine clues in the poem…. So for me there are nine clues in the poem. The first clue is “Begin it where warm waters halt”. Now, what is the second clue? Well, first and most important is the first clue.. I need a starting point, without that why seek the second clue? There are hints in the TTOTC for the clues. There are bonding agents in the poem for the clues. My mind stays in the poem not in the mountains where it would rather be.

    ~Murmur

  14. Fenn said there are “3 or 4” clues in the second stanza (in Fenn-speak)

    Source: http://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/sante-fe-treasure-hunt-1.2942225

    OFF: Well some of them seem… Some of the clues maybe are things that people locally would know. You say, “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down. Not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown. That seems like a couple of clues to me.

    FENN: That sounds like three or four to me

    And he was asked to confirm his answer on MysteriousWritings here: (in more Fenn-speak): http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

    “I don’t know what it is about girls but when I say something they automatically ask if I’m lying. Shame on you Allison R. I promise you that I get more things right than most reporters. If you were here I would make you take a dose of castor oil. Besides, if I lied to the reporter what makes you think I would tell you the truth?

    Sorry Alison, I’m off my soap box now. No, I was not lying but I don’t remember a reporter asking me such a question. f“

    • That’s a good interview Allan K.
      Thanks. I like 3 clues in that stanza seeing “Not far, but too far to walk” doesn’t rhyme. Seems like a hint and not a place.

    • Allen K-
      Forrest did NOT say there are “3 or 4” clues in the second stanza…
      He said “That sounds like 3 or 4 clues to me”.
      World of difference…
      “sounds like” is not the same as “there are”…
      He was not confirming that there are a certain number of clues in that stanza…

      If I say “It sounds like you know what you are doing.”
      I am not saying that you know what you are doing…
      I don’t know if you know what you are doing…
      I only know that when I listen to you, it sounds like you know what you are doing..
      One is an opinion…the other is a statement of fact…

      • well said Mr. Neitzel,
        hear me all listen good.
        hear me all, and listen good.
        read what i wrote, comprehend well.
        do not add nor subtract from any statement.
        do not assume.
        read and follow directions carefully.
        read them again.

        i think.

      • Totally agree Dal. I qualified it as “Fenn speak.”

        He is too clever with his words!

      • Thanks Dal for the clarification, it sounds to me like you know what your talking about and that’s a fact.

    • Sounds like, and having there actually be, are two different things, IMO. Just because it sounds like 3 or 4 clues does not mean there are, and look who it was who made that comment—–FF at his best.

      That being said, all we know for sure is that there is at least one clue in the stanza (the BIWWWH part).

      • LOL—Dal beat me to it. That’s what happens when you start a reply, walk away to do something else for a bit, then return and hit the POST button. Well said, Dal.

    • Continuation of that interview…

      Forrest: That sounds like three or four to me.
      Radio Hostess: I guess you have to know where the home of Brown is.
      Forrest: That’s right. And you have to know where warm waters halt.

      f does identify hoB and WWWH in that interview as clues… so what do I do with the middle two lines and ‘Put in below’ in that stanza?

      So either neither of those two-and-a-half lines are clues or those two-and-a-half lines make up 3+ clues… or maybe f was shooting straight with his ‘sounds like’…

      I guess I’m the odd one out on this… I always have struggled with f’s Fenn-speak…

      • Take it to the bank.
        It’s pretty clear to me there are 3 or 4 clues in the 1st stanza listening to this interview.
        BIWWWH 1st
        TIITCD 2nd
        PIBTHOB 3rd
        That Fenn really knows how to bluff.

        • Agreed Chance.
          Although Fenn is a clever dude, I take him at his word when he says, All you need is my poem and a good understanding of location….

  15. 1st and 2nd clues in perimeter of 200 feet of treasure, f.
    “Home of Brown” a short walk from the treasure, f (ie off the perimeter).
    So the other clues are within that 200 feet perimeter?
    The treasure hunt would be like looking for a needle in a haystack.
    There are hundreds of “Warm Water Halt” out there!
    Did he walk 200 feet into hiding by treasure following these clues?
    Or who discovered the first 2 clues “passed after 7 clues” and 200 feet from the treasure?

    • Well, there goes my solve…lol.
      How is it that 500 miles is a short walk?
      What I’m asking is, where did Forrest Fenn ever say the tc was a short walk from Hob?

        • The video is of her asking about the home of Brown and FF not answering. He does not say that the TC is a short distance from the HOB. He says that if he told her what the HOB was then she would go to the treasure. That doesn’t qualify how close or far the HOB is from the TC. IMO

          • Marcelo, just an fyi, when you put a f after a statement then you are saying that it is a quote directly from FF I don’t think either of those two sentences are quotes from FF. Please correct me if I am mistaken but I do not believe that I am. He may have said something close to that but paraphrasing in the chase can lead to wayward ideas.

          • Yes Alopes, and Marcelo, no problemo, I understand, English is a tough language….even for many gringos including me, sometimes.

          • Okay, I understand. I didn’t know. I think that you have good ideas. The Chase is a fun activity. I was just trying to help with the quotes. It is easy to get off track with things that have been quoted or not but I didn’t mean any offense. I look forward to hearing more of your ideas and will give you some also. If you like the idea of anagrams then here are some ideas. If you string the words together in different orders then some others words pop out at you. Some are SO WY IS IT are SOAK I DID and DIG. This is just a fun way to play with the poem but does not really help, IMO.

    • Marcelo, he has never said who was the 200 feet. It would be interesting to know but maybe not so good for the rest of us, lol.

  16. I believe F wrote the poem and then counted the clues. Somewhere F said that, and I’m only going from memory and I am positive its out there.

    The thing is why worry about how many clues there are? Why not just solve the poem? To me counting the clues is not helpful as some say one thing and then others have a different idea of what the clues are. Seems to me that trying to figure out what the clues are creates a lot more work. I’m sure there are 9 clues and I really don’t count clues because solving the poem is more important. The same things goes with distances, I don’t count how many feet, yards or miles, I’m just trying to solve the poem. I can go and count after I have a firm solve.

    For me that is how I believe I solved the poem, but that’s just me. Of course to each there own. Discussions are helpful and AFT comments are helpful.

    Always my opinion

      • SERE student,

        If your “tor” is “terms of reference” the answer is ” its not necessarily useful”.

    • IMO, to solve the poem you need to identify the 9 clues and move with confidence thereafter.

      “The treasure will be found by someone who followed the clues to the location. To me, that is the only plausible recipe.” FF

      I am not sure how not counting the clues as you decipher/discover/evolve them makes for a confident solve.

      As you already said, CharlieM, to each their own.

  17. And now this brief interlude of gratitude … related to the Chase of course…God bless you Dal and Chris for all you do and all others who love searching in this life:
    Ladys and Gentlemen, I give you the Marshall Tucker Band! Enjoy!

    https://youtu.be/jJRdQenyUzg

  18. Does anyone but me think it not really critical that there are nine clues?

    There is no way to know exactly what they are, or even how to define a clue, we would mostly disagree. And hints are in the poem but we don’t know how many. What about treating all of the poem with equal importance?
    I think the entire poem is needed, except maybe “in” in the first line.

    • Very very critical especially if you don’t know where warm waters halt.
      On the other hand, you and everyone here can believe whatever they want.
      It’s funny to see all the different opinions.

    • I’m on the border…but I think it would help knowing which lines are clues. Especially the last clue.

      For example, If Forrest said the last clue was the blaze (which he didn’t), then we would know that everything after the blaze is hints and/or poetic legalese.

    • IMO. Just heavy loads and water high refers to one place only. Which would make it 1 clue. IMO

    • Thank you for the link, Copperhead. I’ll have to check out some of these areas.

  19. I think the punctuation of the poem does not follow grammatical rules.

    For example:

    Begin it where warm waters halt
    And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.

    Put in below the home of Brown.

    In Portuguese it would be:

    Begin it where warm waters halt
    And take it in the canyon down.

    Not far, but too far to walk,
    Put in below the home of Brown.

    I consider here to be 4 clues.

    Two indicating location and two indicating movement.

  20. I too believe that focusing on what parts of the poem are clues or hints is not fruitful. For instance, I identified hundreds of candidates for where WWH, and I mapped each to google earth, and from that spot, worked the poem, following each line if I could. For the grand preponderance of instances, I could not make it past a ‘HOB’! If a HOB was ‘recognized’, I moved on. Sometimes a line could contribute, other times a line would just contribute fluff to meter and rhyme.

    From 600 starting points, I came up with 6 solutions where I could follow WWH to a Blaze. I also agree that the clues are in stanzas 2 through 4, though that is a bias after looking at dozens of blazes and thinking that if the treasure wasn’t in close proximity to the blaze, what further instructions were going to get me there (except maybe walking south till I ‘tripped’ on it.
    And of course, with the convenient assumption that the blaze was visible from satellite imagery.
    In following the poem, each starting point used different parts of the poem, though as stated, I assumed, each solution would start at warm water and end at some blaze.
    And, following what I think Forrest said about the blaze standing out, that is what I looked for, something that stood out as different, and it took different forms, though sturdy geologic formations were preferred.
    Like so many others, I will take my candidates into the field this late spring and see what I find, and come home and adjust my thinking given this new information.
    We are all forensic scientists looking at clues to solve a puzzle.

    A CSI of sorts – Chest Scene Investigation!

    • No offense, but your process is why I do try to discover what is a hint.

      • I see your point. I gave up on what I think of as a ‘finesse’ process – trying to come up with good guesses and using all the hints and clues. And I’m not using finesse as a pejorative. I think it is a great strategy, but I had so little faith in my own power to do that. So I went with the brute force method. Its why I bothered to bring it up, since I had not read of anybody brute forcing the solution. Any process, I think, takes a great deal of faith that their process will yield more than just a great camping trip.

    • Minion –

      Given that you have 600 would you mind telling me what a few of the starting points are?

      I’m curious to know what you THINK warm waters halt referes to.

      Lugnutz

      • Not so much different than what I have read here. Hot springs flowing to hot pools (lots of lists of these on the web for each state)
        Geysers (on the web – of course only in Wy) and
        glaciers (also on the web – not in NM!).

        One starting place that resulted in a candidate TC spot, was found during tracking down another starting point. My confidence in my candidates was because I was starting with such a large number of initial candidates with reasonable interpretations of WWH’s, until I found this ‘accidental’ starting point giving a very good solution. Now I can’t help but wonder what other source types there could be.

        I think I like others spent an inordinate amount of time looking (on satellite imagery – I’ve only been in the ‘field’ once) for hot spring WWH solutions in New Mexico. Only one solution from these sources was forthcoming in New Mexico. hmmm, not a glacier and not a geyser…and the candidate TC spot is too close to a latitude to Santa Fe NM. (as opposed to Santa Fe Texas.) It may not be the 8 or 9 mile limit.

        This may not be what you were asking for – general places rather than a specific place, but this is what I feel comfortable giving away.

        Though I will say that each of the above sources has given at least one solution for me.

        • How do you associate anything glacier-related
          to the concept of WARM waters?

          My refrigerator kept food at a temperature
          slightly warmer than 40 degrees F. I never
          considered that to be warm. And I sure as
          heck don’t consider 32 degrees F to be warm.

          It could be argued that FF has defined
          “warm” as “comfortable”. And it could be
          argued that water that is about 40 degrees
          F is, in fact, “comfortable” to some kind of
          creature. But when FF mentioned the
          word “comfortable” in the context of him
          explaining what “warm” means, he was
          giving a hint. I don’t think more than a very
          few searchers recognized or understood
          the hint.

          I don’t think there are any glaciers (as
          typically/commonly defined) within a mile
          of the hidey place.

          The above is my opinion. Yours may differ.

          • Tighterfocus;

            When Forrest said to look at the “Big Picture” is it possible that he was saying to look back in time? – Back in time to when the last Ice Age caused the North American continent to be covered with up to two miles of ice. Massive glaciers carved valleys and canyons. They carved Lakes – even the Great Lakes.

            When the glaciers were first created, this would be where warm waters halted. And then, the earth began to warm, and the glaciers began their retreat.
            At the edge of these glaciers today, is that not a place where the warm waters halt?

            As you know, I take more than one trip through the poem. For my solve, these glaciers play a role in my wwwh in one of these trips. JMO – JDA

          • Tigher,
            Are you forgetting “halt”?
            Regardless if warm is comfortable, when it halt being comfortable would be the reference, right?
            If water halt being warm [ liquid ] is it not ice, right?

            Typical and common, doesn’t mean right now in time, as far as a clue and what it refers to. The problem is, no matter what WWWh is to anyone, or wants to believe, they better make sure they can explain the ones “south” of SF.

          • Hello Seeker. When warm waters become uncomfortable, it may suggest “boiling” rather than ice, which halts to steam. I hope I worded that correctly.

    • 600 starting points? Wow!
      I’m blessed to have had only one since the beginning.
      Dang, that really makes me want to give you the first clue…but I can’t do that. So, I’ll suggest you spend more time on the first stanza as confirmation of the starting point can be found within.

      You have sticktoitiveness fo sho.

  21. 9 clues according to my solution

    wwwh
    canyon down
    put in
    ever drawing
    no paddle up
    heavy loads, water high
    so why is it
    tired now I’m weak
    been wise

  22. I did a lot of research on “Brown”.
    It refers to something that time will not affect as soon.
    The conclusion I got is that it depends on the previous clues.
    If we find WWWH> CD> TFTW we will automatically find some HoB and the next clue.
    These 5 clues give us the region of the quest.
    And it should not be “too far” since other researchers were in clues 1 and 2 did not notice the other 7 clues and passed 200 feet from the treasure.
    The other clues lead us to Blaze.

  23. Wow,

    That was a lot of reading to catch up on…

    The question of distances and how to best interpret the clues relative to WWWH is curious to me because, we know at least 3 definitive things from Forrest himself:

    1 – He was willing to say, he walked less than a few miles during his following of the clues and hiding the treasure.

    2 – That people who had some ideas about the first two clues (had them right, but didn’t know it / were unsure) but came with in 200′-500′ of the treasure and went on by it!

    3 – He drove a “sedan” to some point in the clues and took two trips to hide the treasure (using a backpack for at least part of this, so this seems to highly suggest walking/hiking)

    So lets assume, he drove his sedan only to Clue #1 and then walked the rest of the clues – what ever they are (for the sake of argument) – we can therefore assume that either Clue #1, Clue #2 (or some point in between the two clues) is with in 200-500 feet.

    — But we can also assume that somehow there is at least 2 different ways to go from Clue #1 to Clue #2 because one way gets you to with-in 200′, while the other way, has gotten several (to many), with-in 500′.

    The first thing this tells us, is there is definitely some unspecified distance of travel between Clue #1 & Clue #2 (or movement required), but it also very logically suggest that Clue #1 is neither 200′ nor 500′ from the Treasure Chest, because if both parties have 1 and 2 correct, then when at Clue #1, they both have to be very similar distances from the Treasure Chest (unless WWWH has multiple correct answers which I’ll assert seems highly unreasonable given Forrest adamant nature regarding the first clues importance).

    If Seeker, Zap and Lugnutz can agree on this, then I’ll move on… …

    Now if we can all agree that, “Put in below the home of Brown” is a clue (which all of you I’m positive do) and if for the sake of argument we assume that;
    “And take it in the canyon down,”
    “Not far, but too far to walk.”
    Are simply what you are looking for, as you view the canyon from WWWH. Then Clue #2 at a minimum has to be;
    “Put in below the home of Brown.”

    In this scenario — this would mean that these people, who got between 200 & 500 feet away from the treasure, correctly identified WWWH and HOB, but went past the Treasure… …

    Forrest said, “home of Brown, is for you to find out,” “if I told you that you’d go right to the chest.”

    So these past searchers either had, “home of Brown” figured out and still didn’t go straight to the treasure chest OR some distance is traveled between WWWH and the two lines proceeding, “Put in below the home of Brown.”

    “If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? … … a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take.”

    Given all this, I’ll assert it’s very unreasonable to believe that no travel is necessary until “home of Brown.”

    Further, Forrest has said not to ignore any “noun” in the poem and “IT” is a noun. So, “And take in the canyon down” (as to take in the view down the canyon) is decidedly different than; “And take IT in the canyon down.”

    Some have argued that, IT is used as a filler in the poem, similar to how ,it, is often sprinkled in common speech but I would argue this is definitely not the case with Forrest poem precisely for the reason given above, therefore neglecting its use in the line; “And take it in the canyon down,” so the line could refer to the view from WWWH, would be a big mistake, albeit an interesting mental exercise in creativity.

    Just my opinions,

    GCG

    So its either less than a few miles to walk the entire solve

    • When FF said that the second stanza sounds like 3 or 4 clues I don’t believe he was trying to mislead us. He said 3 or 4 because he didn’t want to give away whether it was 3 or 4 not because there was actually 2.

      IMO CD is the 2nd clue and people are not figuring out PIBHOB. If people were to reach HOB they would go straight to the chest. Considering nobody has found the chest how is it that you believe HOB has been found?

      • Aaron,
        I like the idea the CD is involve… Some may say its to big and area to nail down WWWh etc. But IF knowing that the CD might refer to WWWH or any section of the clues, then wouldn’t hoB be a point on the CD?

        So the idea that hoB could have been deciphered and not know is, hoB is the place on the CD that indicates where the remaining clues are. This would give the idea that early searcher deciphered clues “references” but not understanding where they were.
        So if you know what hoB is, why be concerned about WWWh, right? But IF you don’t nail down what WWWH how do you locate hoB? line of thinking… All hypothetical BS… but a reasonable thought. It might be that hoB is so closely related to the CD we can only figure it out by understanding the [ geographical/geography ] of the CD… if it relates to WWWh or another part of the solve.

        Just my thoughts…

        • PS, the thought here is all the many WWWh in the RM’s are connected for the big picture… including those below SF.
          hoB is only the correct location to be at, where we “put in”… go to.

          That’s right folks, I can see hoB as a “put in” as well… it’s all about the perception of how the poem is read.

        • Seeker, trying to find HOB is where everyone leaves the poem IMO. You wont find HOB while in CD. You can only find below it..

          • Sure, that is one way to look at it… what I’m referencing to his wwwh is connected to all the references of WWWh in the RM’s… “below” the hoB is where we need to be, but it might be so connected to the CD in such a way, there is only one place it is at… “the location” regardless of how far below, line of thinking.

            Example… WWH – CD, and all the canyons related to it, but we need one canyon out of the many, right?
            Below the hoB is that indicator and might be related to an area on the CD… but not really part of it, just simply a references to a location…. Canada being “home” of Bown line of thinking.. the symbol of that country that contains 1/2 of the RM range. No place for the meek; would refer to the USA section [ home of the brave] of the lower 1/2 of the range… the 1/2 we need to be in.

            Is that why fenn stated Canada not showing on the map, was a clue from the second book? [ I don’t recall his exact word, but close enough for my point of ‘thought’ ]

            This give credence to the possibility that nine clues understanding is important to understand where… the above theory explains places/references in the first possible 4 clues [ as many think ] and how it can be followed / understood to a single location.
            So if we stop there [ in this hypothetical scenario ] with just that in mind… the location, so far, is ‘on the CD’ and below hoB.

            Just BS about possibles… I can’t help but to look at this poem from many angle.. I’m only hoping for that, “what took me so long” kick in the head.

          • I believe the poem as a whole, including lines surround PIBTHOB, determines the put in location rather than looking for this HOB. In fact I don’t believe we will know for sure what HOB is until we progress on foot further than others have gone. If PIBTHOB is clue 3 then it is clear people are getting lost looking for HOB and wondering outside of the poem.

          • PS… I ‘think’ that is what Lugz referred to as CD to mean both… “C’anyon “D”own in relationship to the “C”ontinental “D”ivide. Both being one in the same, idea.

      • Aaron: agree that hoB is not the second clue. I believe “take it in the canyon down” is the second clue. And that’s as far as anyone got back in 2012-2013.

    • GCG,
      I follow your thoughts and hypothetical and agree with most, in thought and ideas. However, If there are two paths that takes one set of searcher closer or farther to the hidey spot [ were talking about a 300′ foot difference, if I read your post correctly ]… that means both paths are usable to get near the hide, right? If so, then a clue/hint [ call it what you will ] should tell you which 50-50 track to follow for a correct line to the chest, right -?- even before we go looking for the next clue/place/spot…

      You use WWH as a viewing point… well you know I like that idea… but as we view what is needed to be seen [observe], why would we have to move on, …or “…Given all this, I’ll assert it’s very unreasonable to believe that no travel is necessary until “home of Brown.” has you said.

      Are you assuming we must travel to hoB to physically put in there?

      If your going to use “take it in” as a viewing point instead of a physical track… the “put in below” can act the same in a viewing… with still no reason for a searcher to move from this viewing point [wwwh], at least at this point. Could from there refer to hoB that is actually referring to no place for the meek?

      With that thought in mind, and not going into the next steps possible… lets jump backwards for a moment. In my hypothetical scenario… would it be reasonable to think if we haven’t moved from this point yet, the remainders of clues/hint/instruction/directions might only refer to where you are at? Which brings me back to how far we may need to hike [ within a logical idea of what fenn tells us he did ]… Instead of wwwh being at the area of the parking / stop vehicle… we might need to hike to WWWh and all the other clues within the idea of “less than a few miles” is a full, completed, two trips. That would put WWWh possibly a mile hike away [ 4 miles for two full trips, in one afternoon ]

      Fenn stated to marry the clues to “A” place on a map… could it be that “A” place is simply a view of what is describe in the poem, what fenn sees when he is at the hide? and folks don’t understand that the poem might not be a stomping out clue points method, but more of an understanding that the clue point’s are what fenn will enjoy for the his final resting place.

      Don’t get me wrong, I like your scenario as well… But we already have had many searchers in this location… what is it they didn’t understand?

      So if you have been wise, you may already have “found” the blaze, and ignored it [ the blaze ] to force movement/ more hiking and unknown distance, in the hope to create “9” points to travel to?

      The only difference between your ideas/ thoughts vs. mine is movement. This is why I think fenn stated in a Q&A [ paraphrasing ]
      Q- Why do you think searcher quit [ or something like that ]
      A- They didn’t quit, they left the poem.

      IMO… many ignore the warning fenn told us from the start;
      “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f
      While we need WWWH to start the “clues” and that is the information that will lead us to “find” the chest… first and foremost don’t we need the certainty of the “location”?
      Which can not be a state or region like the ideas of MT for treasure state or WY is where I must go line of thinking… It might just be “A” place on a map… if you have the right map. And yes, GE is a good/right map… it can zoom into that “location” of certainty.

      Enjoyed your post… thanks

      • Seeker you and I have discussed this previously.

        The idea that the clues marry to just one place and not 9 places traversed along path. That’s more or less how I see it. The poem describes one place.

        But you can’t see the TC from WWWH

        It’s Ryoan-ji. The viewer never sees all the rocks in a rock garden at once. one rock is always hidden from view.

        You see this rock only in your mind. But the rock does exist.

        In the case of our endeavor we would call this the Fenn Paradox.

        Lugnutz

        • Lugz,
          I don’t think you can ‘see’ the chest from any clue actually, even if the blaze was a on top, as a marker. That puppy is hiding and even a searcher would not find/see it without a complete understanding of the solve.
          Fenn said he was doubtful that anyone could be 12′ from the chest and not find it… well, that tells me there is one clue reference or even more, near that spot. I lean toward more than one. And depending on how you read the poem, all the clues references might be able to be seen from that spot.

          My problem with the single place theory is; do we use the clue’s references / utilize them in some manner or just step them out -?- regardless of the size of anything.

          Example; using fenn’s yard [ pics we have seen ] could be a great size representation… has a wwh, has a creek for the duck to swim up, or not, has a representation of a canyon [ smaller scale of course ] etc etc. is this a kinda of lay we are looking for -?- size wise? and if so, do we walk each clues reference [ follow ] right to the chest… or do we use those locations to triangulate a hide, from the first clue [ nailed down ]?

          There’s still a few WhatIF that need cleaning up, but overall, imo, yep… in relatively small location that we hike to [ maybe as much as a mile one way ], to get to the clues. After that, the chest is close by… less than 1000′ max area.

          In theory…………….. But the kicker for me is, I think that “what took me so long?” idea, is not about the clue’s deciphering, but more about the location of them.

    • @GCG

      I may be alone on this, but I don’t think the searchers that solved the first 2 clues are the same searchers who came within 200feet.

      Also, if you park your car at clue #1 WWWH, that seems to conflict with two lines later—“not far but too far to walk”.

    • GCG,

      So there is some distance between clue #1 and clue #2 let’s say about one mile more or less. There are two ways to get to clue #2, one is walking and another way may be driving. If you walk the trail you will pass at 200′ from the chest at some point. If you drove to clue #2, then that will put you at within 500′ from the chest.

      Only those who walked that trail were that close (200 feet) but if you drove to clue #2 you were within 500′ unless you drove to clue #2, got off the car and walked the trail back, then you also passed the 200 feet point. Understanding clue #3 will get you off that trail and inside the 200 feet distance to the chest.

      Is this what you meant? I guess this will accommodate most of the ATF comments but it also raises other questions.

      • Reminds me of “I wish I Hadn’t ” in TFTW. Put on (in?) your hat, coat, and gloves and jump. It’s about a mile if you go the long way.

          • 0z10 – Forrest took a short cut to get into a canyon with 100 foot vertical walls by making a 4 foot jump onto the top of a pine tree and climbed down the tree into the canyon. It was about a mile walk down the canyon before he could find a way back up. Short version.

    • Hi GCG –

      “So lets assume, he drove his sedan only to Clue #1 and then walked the rest of the clues – what ever they are (for the sake of argument) – we can therefore assume that either Clue #1, Clue #2 (or some point in between the two clues) is with in 200-500 feet.”

      Well, I don’t agree with the premise, but I’ll pretend it’s true to see where that takes me. I don’t think you can conclude that the chest is within 500 feet of clue #1, clue #2, or some point in between them. It could just be any point that someone arriving at clue #2 from clue #1 would naturally proceed on to — which could be distant from both #1 and #2.

      Another wrinkle: what if clue #2 is “Take it in the canyon down”? If so, then clue #2 isn’t a single point at all — it’s a path, perhaps of indeterminate length. Maybe if you stay on that path you naturally come within 500 feet of the chest, and it is only the few folks who took a little detour off that path that brought them (unknowingly) within 200 feet.

      “Further, Forrest has said not to ignore any “noun” in the poem and “IT” is a noun.”

      No, “it” is a pronoun. The unnamed antecedent to which it refers is a noun. So the word “it” was not what Forrest was referring to when he said you can’t ignore any of the nouns in the poem.

      A thought for consideration: what if figuring out the third clue’s answer requires that analysis of an important possibility that Forrest mentioned over 3 years ago that no one up to that time had achieved to his uncertain knowledge…

      • Zap,

        I’m glad you just ran with my HYPOTHETICAL scenario regarding starting at Clue #1 and walking all the clues from there.

        It was intended as an exercise in logic and by picking through my logic piece by piece, you did exactly that!

        I really don’t want to take sides in an argument relative to the poems interpretation so instead I have presented a hypothetical. But not to be perceived as disingenuous and to be clear; I do not believe Forrest intends us to “view” the clues from the physical location of WWWH. But I do believe its worth considering because it can force a searcher to examine the poem and their own interpretation of the clues from a different box…

        Also in previous post, I have mentioned that “IT” is a pronoun, so for the sake of the logic experiment, I was aware of this. The general idea was simply to use Forrest’s comments, in an attempt to not “neglect” the “it” in Verse #6 (TIITCD) since it seems so clearly linked to the “it” in Verse #5 (BIWWWH) because the two verses are linked by the conjunction “And”, with out a comma between the two verses.

        Also Aaron, I am on the record here in the 9 Clues thread, for my belief in exactly what all of the clues are – I have not altered my belief since posting them previously. So I do NOT believe Verse #8 is clue #2.
        For the record; I believe it is Clue #4

        I would however suggest, if Forrest says don’t neglect ANY word in the poem, if you do so its at the risk of misinterpreting the clues; especially the nouns – then it might be careless to differentiate nouns & pronouns… (JMHO Zap, take it for what its worth).

        As to my scenario relative to 200 and 500 feet, my main point was to first show that it is highly unlikely Clue #1 (WWWH) is with in 200 or 500 foot of the treasure (perhaps not impossible), that some amount of movement or travel is necessary from Clue #1, for a searcher to come within these distances, no matter what verse you consider Clue #2. Maybe my logic was unsuccessful in this endeavor…

        Finally, As to the “important clue” comment:

        “It seems logical to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use logic to determine an important clue to the location of the treasure. Is someone doing that now and I don’t know it?”

        And now his answer to my Jenny Kile question:

        “No one has said anything to me about it.”

        What is the subject of this last sentence?

        GCG

        • Addendum
          Zap you once pointed out to me that I neglected to include:

          “So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek?”

          Well – the answers I already know,

  24. Very Good GCG, I like your thought process.
    Consider this, for example:
    1. WWWH is in a location preceding a canyon, in a down direction (down a river, south or declining in elevation.
    2. The HOB is an elevated location X in distance from WWWH.
    3. The remaining six clues/hints are below the HOB (wood, cold, blaze, ect., and yes the TC.
    This has been my thoughts since seekers have been within 500’/200′ of the TC after deciphering the first two clues.
    Hence, “if I told you where the HOB was, you would go straight to the TC.f”
    Well apparently not, if the second clue is HOB and seekers knew the first two clues and went right past the treasure chest. The obvious answer is, knowing where the HOB is will NOT take you straight to the TC. However, 500’/200′ is with “close proximity.” IMHO
    dean
    Thoughts?

    • I personally do not see hoB as the second clue – I see it as #3. #1 = wwwh – #2 = ATIITCD NF,BTFTW. So to me some have figured out the wwwh, and the canyon, but NOT the hoB – they went right past it. JMO – JDA

      • JDA,
        I see, good logic and you could very well be correct.
        Consider this, if I start my search at
        1. Warm Water Lake
        2. Then precede down “Canyon It”
        Would I pass the TC and the HOB? Or, would I just pass the TC. If HOB is a clue, whether it’s 2,3 or 9, I have to believe that if I passed the TC, then by all logic I would have to be passing the remaining seven clues.
        btw, I just made warm water lake and canyon it up. lol
        Does this pass the common sense test?
        dean

        • Hi Dean;

          That depends how far down the canyon you went, or whether the remaining clues are off to the right or left.

          You leave Warm Water Lake, and take the canyon down, but miss hoB, and pass it by. IF the remaining clues are farther down the canyon you may pass only one or two more as you go down the canyon, before you put-in.

          Let’s say that the canyon is basically north – south. Let’s say that just past hoB, that there is a road that heads west, and that the remaining clues are up this road, then yes, you will pass by all of the remaining clues once you have passed hoB. Make sense? Hope so. JDA

          • Very good JDA,
            Another scenario may be that taking the road to the west, as you suggested, could lead to a put-in point “HOB” that takes a turn south (below), the next clue in turn goes east (meek) and finally you turn to the north to view the blaze. If this holds true we have traversed 360 degrees nearing our…..that’s right, begin it WWWH. Which is what? Correct again, Alpha and Omega! Possible or not probable?
            dean

          • Not probable – why?

            You sat, “Another scenario may be that taking the road to the west, as you suggested, could lead to a put-in point “HOB” that takes a turn south (below),”

            Look at what I proposed. wwwh – canyon down, past hoB to put in spot – then road to west.

            You say that road to west leads to hoB, which we already passed. So, IF you want to complete a box, you go west past meek place, turn right at End or No paddle up your creek, then right again at Heavy Loads and Water high, and arrive at Blaze next to wwwh.

            Possible? Yes. Probable, I don’t think so. Why wouldn’t you have seen the blaze when you were at wwwh in the first place? – Saw it, but didn’t recognize it as a blaze? Possible, but again (for me) not probable. JMO – JDA

          • JDA,
            Yes, my mistake, I was repositioning the HOB on your road to the west. Sorry, I should have pointed that out.
            This illustration is a good exercise for you.
            This is NOT what happened in this particular solve of mine, but anyway, here’s a freebie.
            Go to GE and put Blaze Mountain into the search box.
            Now explore Blaze Mountain and all of it’s surroundings. If you are already familiar with this mountain, then you already know why it is named as such. If you are not, then it should become quickly apparent.
            Now, back to my original consideration. Depending on where you begin it WWWH and depending on where you are when you have BOTG and IYBWAFTB. You could have conceivably traversed 360 at the exact moment you LQDYQTC.
            Right On?
            Of course, JMHO
            dean

          • Yes, that is possible, BUT – how far will you have walked? There are few roads into this area, I am told.

            1) What in the poem lead you to this area?
            2) Past wwwh, what canyon did you take, and why?
            3) What hoB did you find?
            4) What “Meek place” did you find?
            5) What is your “end”?
            6) Where is your “No paddle up your creek”?
            7) What are your “Heavy Loads and Water High”
            8) So, we are – at last_ at your blaze – Blaze mountain.

            Did finding the 8 above locations lead you in a circle around Blaze Mountain?

            OR

            Did you just try to find Indulgence by looking for the blaze first, because of it’s name? If so, I invite you to read what Forrest has to say: “Mr. Fenn,
            Over the past half-decade, your challenge for any cavalier spirit to find a valuable treasure chest hidden in the Rocky Mountains sparked a veritable gold rush of knowledge. Searchers endlessly immerse themselves in study of topics previously unknown to them hoping to gain an advantage in their quest. I would even go so far as to speculate that some have done more research in relation to the chest than some doctoral students do in completing a thesis.
            To be sure, there is value in wisdom. That value is then increased when wisdom is shared with others. Which is why I was hoping you might be willing to share a thought or two about something you’ve learned from searchers over the past five years. Whether related to geography, geology, history or even human nature, I’d love to hear if there’s been anything offered up by a searcher, or searchers, that enlightened you in some way.
            Hope all is well! ~ S&H

            Thanks for the question S&H.
            I learn something every day from those who are in the treasure hunt.
            What surprises me is that so many ignore the first clue in the poem. Without it all the searcher has is the memory of a nice vacation. Although many have tried, I doubt that anyone will find the blaze before they have figured out the first clue.”f

            Hope this answers your question Dean – JMO – JDA

    • Dean, knowing HOB will take you to the two feet you need to find the chest. forget 500, forget 200 its just two. i cant read a ruler though.

      i think.

  25. 1 Begin it where “warm waters halt”
    2 And take it in the “canyon down”,
    3 Not far, but “too far to walk”.
    4 Put in below the “home of Brown”.
    5 From there it’s “no place for the meek”,
    6 The end is ever drawing “nigh”;
    7 There’ll be “no paddle up” your creek,
    8 Just “heavy loads and water high”.
    9 If you’ve been wise and found the “blaze”,

  26. Because of the conjunction, IMO WWWH/canyon down are connected and serve as a single clue.

    Pinatubocharlie

    • I like that opinion, and lets say, NFBTFTW is not a place, as much as, a warning or advise. Would it seem that we could see or figure out what hoB refers to from WWWh?
      I ask your opinion because; if those two lines combined into a single clue, why can’t the next line be a clue in conjunction with the first two making a single understanding of what is being told?
      Basically saying; three clues give a place and an understanding, [ there references ] line of thinking and [at this point in time ] the searchers has only observe their surroundings [ the need to be on site ] before making any movement.

      Even if we can decipher all the clues reference at home [ what they are or mean, “in theory, but not in practice” ] the need to be on site, is to see how fenn’s blueprint brings it all together.

      • Good thinking Seeker. Realizing how the lines work together is more important than counting clues IMO.

        • Agreed Aaron and in the end my number of clues may differ then Fenn’s.

          Could explain why he says Sounds like 3 or 4.

          Depends on what he counted as a clue ATF.

      • Seeker,

        I was actually thinking about adding NFBTFTW as part of the conjunction too, but for me right now, I see it more as an informational hint, though I could certainly be wrong. That said, line 7 has always given me the feeling that there’s a lot more to it than meets the eye. Is it something to be used on a different level of the poem, or is he simply telling us to use a different form of transportation?

        Sorry for the rambling.

        Pinatubocharlie

        • Hi PinatuboCharlie: in my opinion, NFBTFTW is the killer. It is the thing that most prevented progress after the first two clues. My guess is that many of those early two-clue-solvers didn’t even think NFBTFTW *was* a clue — that “Put in below the home of Brown” was the third clue they needed to solve. If that put-in is NOT the 3rd clue, it’s easy to see why no one made further progress, right?

          The two-clue brick wall is actually a rather helpful data point for testing potential solutions. If a searcher’s third clue is easy or obvious after solving what they believe are the first two clues, then it is almost certainly wrong.

        • Pinatubocharlie.

          Lets go backwards for a moment… we have… BIBTHOB, a stand alone single sentence, preceding three lines in one sentence. Why the stop [ . ]?
          Does NFBTFTW really relate to hoB at all?
          Does “From there” relate to the first sentence of stanza 2 and not the last? [hoB]

          It does seem odd that within the poem where most believe the clues are contained [stanza 2 3 4]… line 8 of the poem is all by itself.

          The semicolon combines stanza 3, so the next stanza that contains two true sentences is stanza 6. Stanza 4 is one sentences and stanza 5 is presented as a question and an answer to the question… [ is that really two sentences? [ I guess it could technically be ]

          My point is… could line 8 PIBTHOB be referring to the entire sentence prior to it? or only the line in-front of it?
          Using this reading of PIBTHOB referring to the sentence [ not just a line ] prior… it seems to me that the poem can be straight foward and in consecutive order of how that line 8 might work in reference to the prior sentence [lines 5 6 7]…

          Begin it where WWWh and TIITCD NFBTFTW… [all found below hoB] “they” “put in” below the hoB.
          This might give credence to; If you know hoB why be “concerned” about WWWh [ reverse engineering Q&A ] Why would you, right? it would show us WWH, right?
          As well as, IF you know what hoB you’d go right to the chest…

          Is understanding hoB part of “nailing WWWH down” and not just wander around looking for a wwwh reference to kick this all off?
          Is this why fenn says we don’t “dwell’ on wwwh enough,” because we need to know wwwh’s ‘home’ location-?- out all the dart tossing possibilities? Is this what fenn means when he stated some have the first four clues, but he’s not sure?… not sure they understand it in the correct reading order??? but they have the correct references, no unlike those with the first two clues and walked by everything else…

          LOL. Could it be that they all went looking for hoB not knowing the “significance of where they were” -?- they “left the poem”

          Sure, sure this all could be crap o la, and some would yell foul for out of order, but If this line 8 was meant as a hinted instructional clue… and still a place/location… does this hold true to fenn saying; no one has told him the correct order of the clues after the first two?

          Pina, while your at your location searching… just keep the thought in mind, or go over your theory and see if this idea seems reasonable… all I’m saying is, have options / ideas ready, when searching… look around with fresh eyes before moving on.

          Food for thought only…………

          • “LOL. Could it be that they all went looking for hoB not knowing the “significance of where they were” -?- they “left the poem””

            Yep, FF said something to the effect of he is not sure if they got 4 clues. This is because they could have been below HOB, and they likely were if the were in the right place at CD, but they did not know it. They then kept going right past HOB and the TC. It is easy to see under this scenario how someone can be in the right place but not realize it.

          • Honestly Seeker, I am not interested in trying to figure out why/how other searchers were so close to the chest. My goal is to be sure I don’t end up being one of them myself.

            At the same time, I try to heed his advice to “simplify” and so I effort to avoid getting into dissecting the poem, though not always successful at doing so. My time is better spent trying to decipher the clues where I feel I’m making decent progress. However, I firmly believe everything in the poem is there by design, including punctuation that might seem odd to us. I have a theory I’m working on now in that regard but don’t know if it’s going to pan out or not as I just thought about it the other day.

            Regarding line 8 and if I am right, it is connected to WWWH, but only in the sense that it’s the next step needed to get me closer to the TC. Actually, I’ll take that back after considering it more. Assuming my WWWH is correct, then I believe I could make a case that HOB and WWWH are related in a certain way and is why they are in the same stanza. BUT for me, HOB will still require a little more thought as to how to apply the answer to this particular riddle.

            As to my next search and keeping my options open, in all likelihood, that won’t happen for a few months unless I have a few more “breakthroughs” (aka, how’d I miss that ah-ha moment) like the one I had the other day.

            Hope most of this makes sense.

            Thank you for the advice Seeker and take care.

            Pinatubocharlie

    • Gentlemen,

      First, great to see you again, Seeker! I trust you are feeling better. You were in my prayers (sincerely).

      Second, IMHO there is really no need to count clues at all. If you are satisfied that you are at the correct WWWH, the Canyon Down and everything else falls into place eliminating the need to count.

      For example: How many beans were in your bowl of Chili?
      Answer: Who cares, it was delicious.
      (knowing the number of beans would not change anything)

      • LMN,
        Appreciate it…

        Ok- then why would fenn tell us the poem contained “nine clues” if it doesn’t really matter? I mean, he could have said the poem contains clue that will lead a searcher… right?
        Being that this sentences was the lead into the poem from the book, I think its odd that he’s telling us a number he wanted the reader to know about.
        I can say the same for “Rainbow” being in that sentence, and before the idea, of the chest.
        So, is it possible that these hints/clues/ pieces of information “help” with the clues, more in a way, to explain where, rather than what a clue is or it’s reference?

        This whole thing could fall on being in the right location first, then we need to build fenn’s blueprint from what is only seen there… regardless of how many other places those reference refer to in any other location…
        IF so, how important is knowing that there are “nine clues” [ that makes it all work ] and why rainbow might need more consideration…
        Even though he counted the clues afterwards… he has said the poem / clues is the only way he knows of to ‘find’ the chest.

        This is where my thought go to the idea the book “helps” with where and not so much what. Can “nine” in anyway help? lol, IDK but he wanted us to know, right?

        The again, the 9 clues in the poem could be an indicator to the book having 9 [only] pieces of information, that will help with 9 clues in the poem.

        It really doen’t matter what ‘we’ think about the 9 or the rainbow or dismiss them as non-importation, However, the author thought is was important enough to mention when introducing the poem… Maybe this is where that “certainty” of anything falls into place,… whether or not you feel good about your; ‘everything else fall into place’… that has been done, being done and continues fail each time, even when folks are Sooo physically close.

        I think we should at least attempt to see how searchers [many] get this far and completely fall apart… I’d doubt that they all just screwed up on a wrong turn… something is missing………… 9?

        • Seeker,

          You are such a deep, deep, deep, deep thinker (did I mention “a deep thinker”)? I have to first say that I have a “dependent” family and cannot devote the time to analyze your responses and craft a reply. However, I hope this will suffice.

          There are nine clues (counted in hind sight) and plenty of other hints in the poem. ONLY ff could judge what is a clue and what is in his view a hint. ONLY after The Chase concludes could he (possibly) reveal those details. But, why should he? A spry 80 year old checked off an important line on his Bucket List. IMHO, now a tired 89 year old just wants some fresh air and peace.

          I still plan on holding that bronze prize before summer is over…so don’t expect me to be real chatty here!

          PS. Hope that you truly are a “Seeker” or better yet, a “finder” in the spiritual sense.

  27. What If?

    *As I have gone alone in there ( his office alone by the juniper fire to write his book)
    *And with my treasures bold, (with his cherished memories and stories of his life)
    *I can keep my secret where, (the poem) where? In the book
    *And hint of riches new and old. (hint to the clues in poem (new). left his trove for all to seek. (old)

    Who’s taling to you?

    • Murmur,
      IF ‘hint of riches’ refer to the trove at all… doesn’t that seem to say the trove or contents “hint” at something?
      How are you defining “hint” ?

        • Seeker,
          I will try to make it clear. FF has hints in the TTOTC to help solve the clues in the poem. The “And hint of riches new and old” suggests that with the hint or hints would be referring to the riches of “New” the seeker that found the TC and “Old” because FF no longer holds the title of TC. It is an ownership exchange. The important thing to realize is that if one reads the poem and is in the search/mountains in the “mind” and not the poem you will get lost in the message. YouTube Smarter Every Day, look at the video of riding the bike it is a good example of what I am saying. In conclusion, the first stanza sets the way to look at the clues.… IMO

  28. It is mind blowing to say the least that searchers/folks got within 200/500′ as early in the Chase as they did. And then…pretty much the same from then on out. He did say “maybe” four clues much later on…but dang!
    The third clue is the solve killer if wwh has been figured out in one’s solve.
    The correct decipher is going to win the day…half way there(figuratively) and gets easier after determining wwh !

  29. Here is the statement we have about Brown:

    ‘well that is for you to find out. If I told you that, you would go right to the chest.’

    Not the entire line including PUT IN BELOW but just Brown. The entire line is clue 3.

    • That’s how I see it Aaron…If you’re in the right locale in terms of deciphering wwh, canyon down to the put in. That seems about right for halfway there…figuratively.

  30. Covert One:

    I truly want to thank you for that quote from William Shakespeare:

    “The meaning of life is to find your gift.
    The purpose of life is to give it away”

    I sincerely had never heard that quote before. That quote is a treasure in itself. If I never find the chest I will have found many things during the chase that have profoundly changed my heart. Thanks again.

    • Sparrow – you are very welcome.

      When I read that quote, I knew I had to share it. It’s amazing how just a few words can move someone – it certainly moved me.

    • Sparrow,

      You are so right! I recently started distinguishing distinct of the chase from an emotional, intellectual and “spiritual” perspective.

      And now I’m busy working to reconfigure my everyday, on-going life such that these distinct elements are present in more of the things I’m up to…

      For simple example I am presently about 9 years away from a standard retirement from my career of the last 20 years. This career has been good to me but it hasn’t provided me the psychological environment I’d prefer. So now I’m looking at my 3rd act in life and making sure it is in pursuit of some treasure.

      Currently my metaphor for that treasure, is slaying the Glucosepane Dragon because it guards the gate to the treasure of extended longevity. Glucosepane is the major constituent of the cross-linked proteins in humans called Advanced Glycation End-products (AGE — rather cleverly) which cause or significantly contribute to the stiffing & embrittlement of organ tissues. This ultimately results in enfeeblement and eventually death.

      Once we can figure out the clues to its mystery, we will be able to break-apart these molecules and give people the treasures of younger hearts, kidneys and lungs again…

      I can’t wait to get started on my next chase!!!

      GCG

      • GCG—-

        Thanks for your post. I think when I saw that Shakespeare quote it really made me think. If you know what gift you have, are you giving it away? What if you have a gift of mercy and comfort? Am I using it? What if I have a gift of humoring others? Am I uplifting them? I know the subject is 9 clues. But sometimes posts can have a real impact on us. I’m so grateful for everyone on this blog and the many amazing things that have been shared. In order to stay on topic though I will add “a stitch in time saves nine.”. lol

      • Hello GCG. If the studies you present is correct, perhaps consider the cells of placentas.

        In the beginning, I felt the poem had described birth, as there are others who have considered the same. In particular, “alone in there,” and “warm waters halt”.

        • I like it because amniotic fluid is mainly urine from the infant! and….. There for 9 months the warm water halts!

          • Don’t forget this quote….

            “My God, I’m pregnant, I wonder who did it.” 🙂 lol

          • This quote couldn’t have come at a better time, Spallies. Thank you for posting it. I laughed so much when I read it for the first time.

        • Embryonic Stem Cells (ESC) is indeed one of the areas of research inside the movement to engineer away the damage done to the body over time, due to the very messy nature of just being alive.

          However we will have to have another Forum site for any further discussion!!

          GCG

  31. One thing to consider, put in “below” hoB. How far below the home of Brown? Is it right at or feet, yards or miles?

    Curious what different opinions are.

  32. The 2nd & 3rd stanzas in the poem to me covers a few miles and not so much in a confined area. For instance taking the canyon down is too far to walk for most people. Below the hoB is a few miles. No place for the meek is a few miles from hoB. And the blaze is a few miles from no place for the meek. From the blaze to the TC is still quite a distance.

    Of course that is my opinion. In this line of thought I felt the first botg was all in a confined area and after that I broaden the search to a wide area of a few miles.

        • CharlieM
          If you put in at the hoB.. with a car (safe) As soon as you get out it is no place for the meek.. The end is ever drawing nigh… you are BOTG moving. IMO

      • Two ways to look at it Murmer;

        “From there it’s no place for the meek.”

        “From there” COULD mean from this exact spot (hoB) is “No place for the meek” – therefore, no distance.

        OR

        “From there” could be implying that there is “some” distance between hoB and where the “meek” place begins.

        In my solve, “No place for the meek” can actually involve 4 different places – one of which is almost adjacent to hoB, one is about 2 miles away, #3 is almost 9 miles away, and #4 is about 1/2 mile past #3 – So, it could be either – almost adjacent or up to 9.5 miles away – go figure – JMO – JDA

  33. Well, I’m late to the party again. Don’t have the inclination, or time, to figure out where this goes, above, so I’ll just drop it here.

    March 30, 2013 – Adam the Adventurer: I wrote Forrest and asked how can someone be 500 feet away and only solve 2 of the 9 clues? Forrest stated that it was 2 different searchers..(Searcher comment from Dal’s site)

    Feb. 4, 2016 – “There have been some who have been within 500 feet because they have told me where they have been. OTHERS have figured the first two clues and went right past the treasure and didn’t know it.”..( NM Tourism video)

    ***It would seem that in 2016, Fenn confirmed what A the A stated, four years earlier……the 500 feet folks are separate/different from those who have solved two clues.

    The 500 feet searchers apparently had detailed to Fenn where they had been in their travels, searching or otherwise…..and Fenn knew they were within 500 feet, at some point…..who knows what took them there??

    Without a doubt, hopefully at some point, the solving of the first two clues will allow you to progress to within 500 feet of the chest…..but so far, for me, none of his comments indicate that the start point is 500 feet, or 200 feet, from the chest.

    just half of .02……….. 🙂

    • Nice Loco! The “early” stuff is the standard to set the bar and compare to later more practiced responses.
      I agree 200% that the “start” is NOT 500′ from the TC. But I do believe there is a “twist” mixed in there that has folks dancing in circles…

    • locolobo,

      I believe that those that were within 200′ to 500′ went as far in the poem to near the blaze. It also I believe that those searchers may have found the blaze and didn’t look down in the right direction. In my solve both scenarios are in my area and very plausible. IMO

      • CharlieM,
        Isn’t that more hopeful wishing rather than actuality?
        IF the blaze was found, fenn said; the distance to the chest would be obvious… I mean, for a searcher to be at the blaze [found it] and not look all over the place seems is bit of a stretch, especially if the idea of the distance to the chest, from the blaze, would be so obvious.. and that far into the poem to boot?

        It could be reasonable that some went by the blaze, but didn’t know it was, because the didn’t have enough of the poem solved to that point… IDK… it seems very unlikely someone “found” the blaze and not find the chest, with what fenn stated in the Q&A.

        Opinion, just opinions, I have no ideal if that could be possible or not.

        • Seeker,

          The one thing is nothing is wishful thinking it’s a reality. Yes I think that some feel I maybe full of bull. The thing is that too much time is being spent on AFT comments and not enough on what the poem is saying and too much conjecture.

          I’ve been trying to relay that for sometime now and I believe F has been trying to relay that by saying to simplify on more than one occasion.

          That BS and entertainment is often brought in an effort to hid their solve, but then again who knows.

        • Hi Seeker – good seeing you on here again.

          Q. Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey
          A. Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help?f

          So with f’s statement that the distance would be obvious, would that mean something like obviously it is very close, because there it is, or obviously it is still some distance away, because the chest isn’t right here?

          If a person can be within 12 feet of the chest and be ‘not likely’ to ‘not find it’, does one then need to look quickly down (chin hitting their chest) when at the blaze to see the chest if they already saw it at 11 feet away as they approached the blaze?

          Or do I need to walk to the blaze that is on the side of a large rock or out-cropping to look quickly down below the blaze to find the chest?

          But then there is that comment about what direction the blaze is facing (NSEW) and f said none of those. But what does f consider (NSEW)? f did say: “Anything North of 270 degrees and North of 090 degrees… 271 degrees to me can be a Northerly direction.”

          So maybe the blaze is facing either directly up or directly down? If directly up, then I would be looking quickly down when at the blaze and not the chest. If the blaze faces directly down, then I would see the chest at 11-12 feet as I approached the blaze and I would not need to look quickly down (chin hitting my chest) once I found the blaze over my head.

          So maybe the chest IS buried and the blaze is X marks the spot to dig?

          I better stop there before I hurt myself. 🙂

          • Change the words “see” the chest to “locate the hide”… I’d have to say that is what fenn might have meant, JCM.

            Directional doesn’t really matter at this point though, if you really think about it… by that point the poem it all should be understood well enough to finalize what ever action the searcher needs to do, right?

            If a searcher has been correct to get this far… “found” the blaze it should be game over, no matter what is need for a completion and retrieval.

            This is why I think fenn stated the chest will not be “stumbled upon,” not even by a searcher in the area [which seems to be the case already, right? ] Folks 200 feet from the hide and no one had the slightest clue, even with two or possibly more clues solved. [although we don’t know for a ‘fact’ the four clue possible people were on site or not]… [then again, if we “need” to be on site after the first two clue as stated, it would be safe to say the four clue solvers were probably on site as well.. hmm!]
            Ya have to get all the way through, to understand the blaze.
            Which reminds me of Becky’s Q&A… that still is a puzzler… for a non-answered / ‘posted’ question. And yet later the quote you posted above…

            lol. Nope, I don’t think by this point [in a correct, up to this point, solve] it wouldn’t matter about any direction at all… it should be obvious ‘by then.’

            Oh! imo….

          • Here is the exact quote from FF (From Scrapbook 78) = “Second, I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12′ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.”

            In the first sentence, FF tried to make it clear that he never said that someone was closer than within 12 feet of the TC. His followup sentence is a double negative, therefore making it positive, so it should be read that if one is 12 feet or closer to the TC, the chance of finding the TC is much greater than not finding it.

            FF is the expert and I trust his assertion.

        • Seeker…
          IMO…If someone found the blaze..(let’s say maybe a man and a woman) and they were absolutely sure, they might be on clue 5. That would mean there would be 4 more clues to identify and solve.
          In my humble opinion, things would then start to get sticky and more confusing. It would only get harder IMO
          Does anyone know how to uncover the identify the owners of shell corporations that don’t want to be known? ( Not the registered agent that’s easy, the principles). A little help please.

          Best regards

          1 F Billy

          • Sherif,

            I was thinking about going down that shell corporation/who really owns the land rabbit hole a few months ago and then decided it could be considered specialized knowledge and backed off the idea.

            Good luck if you decide to give it a go.

            Pinatubocharlie

    • What those say to me, Loco, the clues should be relatively to close to each other, rather than miles apart.
      Still, I would love to know what got the early searchers to this location… if they didn’t know they had those two clues correct…
      Did they find a later clue [ example HLnWH ] and that clue landed them at/near WWWH, and didn’t know it was the first two clues location? It doesn’t sound reasonable… but they got there nevertheless… I mean, could fenn indicate they “deciphered” those clues, “solve” those clues, just by being there and mentioning them, as what they saw???
      Yep, That is a head scratcher………

      • Has anyone (or Seeker) ever considered that searchers for the first two clues but the one who has 4 clues maybe and the one who has or is about to solve has actually solved the first two clues? There is a difference between getting the places right and solving them, if you understand what I am getting at?

        • Sorry that should read, the searchers got the first two clues but didn’t actually solve them. The one (s) who actually got more than three clues, not only got the first two clues but actually “solved” the first two clues

          • Such an interesting question 9=9.

            I have had the same wwwh and canyon down for the past 28 months or so. It was not until 2 or 3 months ago that I figured out why Forrest picked this as “his” wwwh and “Canyon Down”. This also holds true for why he chose the hoB, and learned WHY this hoB was important to Forrest.

            Having not yet discussed these “WHY’s” with Forrest, this is all conjecture on my part, but I feel I am right.

            Is this what you mean by “Getting” the first couple of clues vs “Solving” them?

            Good luck this spring, and TRY to STAY SAFE – JDA

          • 9=9,
            Since the time of the first comment [first two clues] fenn has used words such as “indicated” “mentioned” “deciphered” “figured the first couple of clues” and “solved’ the first two clues” …in different Q&A and interviews.
            We only have one comment [ that i’m aware of ] about the four ‘first’ clues.
            Even in that comment, fenn seems to be unsure those searchers knew if they had or not actually solved anything.
            I guess it could be logical that if anyone mentioned the correct order of clue, starting with clue 1, fenn could say they solved them, but they didn’t really know they did, because IF they knew they should have been able to move through the whole poem, in theory.

            We have comments from fenn saying things that seem to imply… if you have the first few clues the others clues get easier
            [ i’m paraphrasing and implying – if you want to look up all those related comment and judge for your self, that would be your best bet ]

            Other comments implied, about the first two clue solves, your 1/2 way there, idea… lol…1/2 way in a physical track? 1/2 way because you got through the hardest clues to decipher? We just don’t know… But from 2013ish… there have been many comments from fenn about the first two clues, and yes, the word “solved” was used in at least one comment i’m aware of.

            With that said, “I” work with the idea that only fenn knows how it was explained to him, and he feels they actually deciphered the clues correctly… but only the clues reference of what they refer to, and not so much why they are important to the rest of the solution.. regardless if on site or not. <<<imo.

          • Seeker,
            Have you ever wondered how one can get to level 3 or 4 clues and ff not be sure? Ever think it is because the solver got the technique and actually solved 1&2 and applied the right solution or methodology but got the wrong spot but it did not matter because they were able to get within 200’ of treasure?

            Think about it this way. If clues are supposed to be easier as we progr we through the poem. Why are so many getting clue 1&2 and then getting off track if they are supposed to get easier? I suggest the answer is they are not solving but improvising to get to within 200’. But Mr Gut feeling and 4 clues are likely the same person and maybe are actually solving the clues and not just getting the places they represent right.

            Sorry this difficult to explain but there is a reason people loose it at three when it is supposed to getting easier. I hypothesize that it only becomes easier if you apply the right solving technique.

          • 9=9;

            I think you are on the right track.

            Let’s play a “WhatIF game. Suppose I had “A” hoB. that worked, but there was a structure associated with it, which Cynthia now says Forrest said “No structure associated with hoB”. So, lety’s pretend that I tell Forrest of my first hoB. It is in the correct area, but the wrong hoB. I had not “Solved” the correct hoB. It worked, but it was not the “correct” hoB – so, as far as Forrest was concerned, I had not yet “solved” clue #3.

            Suppose that I then went on to clue #4, the meek place. I may have again gotten the correct “Meek place”, but not “Solved” WHY it was important to Forrest – and I went on to the “end.” place.

            I was (or so I felt) at the correct “End Place”, but had not yet “solved” clues #3 and #4 as far as Forrest was concerned.

            This is all supposition. Just an example of how someone COULD be at a particular location, and yet not correctly “solved” the clues as far as Forrest was concerned. Just food for thought – JDA

          • I sort of agree with you JDA. I believe that they didn’t understand what it means to put in below home of Brown yet the ended up at no place for the meek, or part of it. Lets say no place for the meek is a geyser basin. They could have walked through it and continued on looking for this home of Brown without knowing they had already put in below it. Hence FF did not know if they had the right order. They were likely closer after 2 clues and proceeded past the third, fourth, ect.

          • 9=9 ~’Have you ever wondered how one can get to level 3 or 4 clues and ff not be sure?’

            Sure I have, but we don’t have much to work with… fenn stated… “some “may’ have”… right?
            We could speculate all day on why he think they ‘may’ have… Although, “some” is interesting….

            Here’s a scenario;
            He reads a posting on anyone of the upteen web site, and personal blogs, personal web pages, face book, his own web page, and only got tidbits of a theory…
            But, not enough to be conclusive. Still, it’s good salesmanship to place an ad to get the customers interested, right?

            And like fenn as stated before, he looks for key word when reading/hearing searchers theories [ be it e-mail, blogs or even in person ]… so the idea is, they had the correct key words [ info ] in the correct order but, not enough was posted, or told, to him to make a full conclusion.

            LOL Ya”ll that e-mail fenn should think about all the avenues fenn gets his info from… Maybe the searcher[s] are from Italy and fenn stated this for the Italy phone interview.

    • (the other half of the .02) 🙂

      OK… In 2016, Fenn confirmed what A the A stated four years earlier……that the 500 feet folks are separate/different from those who have solved two clues…..let’s carry it a step further:

      Colo started this latest hooraw with this -> Aug, 12, 2013 – “There have been a few people within 500 hundred feet. I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.”

      As pointed out, the searchers who solved the first two clues are not the same searchers he mentions as having been within 500 feet,

      So, although now he says there have been ‘lots’ within 500 hundred feet, the statement Colo posted should hold as true now as it did in 2013……and, it should be read as:

      “There have been a few people within 500 hundred feet… I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet, they figure the first two clues but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.”

      Does that answer anyone’s question??

      • See Loco…I knew someone would eventually see where I was coming from. That is exactly the conclusion I came to…although with some other nuggets as backup. I am sure Colo did too.
        It is curious that some folks do not want to do their homework by digging into what has been discussed over and over since the beginning. Nice detective work Loco.

        • LOL! 10:4 on the other nuggets, ken. I just tried to use the minimum to get the point across…..some folks can’t chew too big of a bite…..

      • I totally missed Colo posting this previous to my posting a few days ago. When was that ? Hmm

          • Loco…I thought maybe Colo had said sumpin’ I missed along the way. I like the way he thinks and digs up good nuggets too…
            As an aside…there are a couple of “other early goodies” that can take this line even further. I am hanging on to those for awhile because I believe they help clarify where folks have erred after being so close….

          • Ken – Why hang on to them? Flip ‘um out here and let us sink our teeth into ‘um – JDA

      • Loco,
        I know you have seen this, but lets give it ago one more time;
        Dear Forrest,
        Now that the 2014 search season has ended, can you summarize the results? Ie: is anyone close to the treasure chest? Has anyone given you a solve? Thanks, puttputt.
        I know of a few searchers who have been reasonably close to the treasure puttputt, but there is no indication that they knew it. No one has given me the correct solve past the first two clues.f

        This comment is at least a year from the first comment fenn stated about the first two clue.

        The word “reasonably” might be an indicator to what fenn would consider the 200′ foot mark as a distances [ even though we do see it stated that way]
        When we take all the 500 and 200 foot comments. The idea is… if “many” have been near the 500 foot mark, a “few” have been reasonably close[r]. Either way… they had to have figured out the first two clues to do so, by the statement[s] up above in both post…. err, umm, So, within a logical assumption using the many and the few, some of then [ maybe not in 2013, but other years ] should be folks who got the first two clue and were at that 200′ mark…
        {I’ll add; as long as the idea remains, they would have been in “search mode” and not the tourist idea}

        LOL… that’s the best I got for a rebuttal… you know I had to try.

        • The first four clue comment also seem to imply the idea, not ‘within’ 200′ as well… I’m killing myself dissecting my thoughts… lol

          Interview with a journalist in Italy, Oct 31st 2015;
          Are there signs that people are getting closer to solving your puzzle?  How many clues have people solved now?
          Searchers have come **within about 200 feet.** Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.

        • Holy Cow??

          Seeker wrote->err, umm, So, within a logical assumption using the many and the few, some of them [ maybe not in 2013, but other years ] should be folks who got the first two clue and were at that 200′ mark…

          LOL, seeker…seeker…seeker – that is what I was heavily alluding to when I said Fenn’s comment should be taken as him saying: “I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet, they figure the first two clues but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.”

          – – ya really shouldn’t tax yourself too much before the first cuppa joe!! 🙂 …just kiddin ya! 🙂

          • Good pickup loco. That is what I was suggesting. Prior to 2013 1&2 clue solvers different from 200’ club. After 2015 we have 3-4 clue solver breaks the barrier and gets within 200’ as well. Seems to be a difference starting fall 2015

          • LOL! Nope 9=9, ya totally missed the boat!!

            Fenn said 500 feet and two clues were different peeps.

            The several hundred feet/200 hundred feet AND first two clues solved are the same searchers….always have been and still are.

            But, that is NOT to say that the chest is 200 feet from the first two clues….

            AND, WTH??….No, there is no definitive indication that anyone has solved 3, or 4, clues….but, when someone does solve 4 clues, you would certainly hope they could get to 200 feet from the chest.

            bye, bye….9=9

          • Ok we disagree somewhat. Don’t see it as missing the boat unless you are talking clue 3 lol

            So what is your take on clue 4 solver and fenn’s gut feeling. Seems odd that we can only be at 2 clues. Unless that is denial speaking?

    • “Without a doubt, hopefully at some point” ??

      Good luck solving the poem. It’ll take clear thinking.
      Have you used a dictionary to look up “halt”?

      I have good reason to believe that any searcher who —
      as a result of poem-solving — got within 500 feet of the
      hidey place has been the beneficiary of correct solving
      of more than just the first 2 clues.

      All IMO.

      • LOL!!

        Well, AJ, I do hope you have a nice vacation. Please take lots of pictures. And be a good sport and show us where it wasn’t.

        Seriously, Good Luck to you, AJ

      • Halt is an interesting word…A halt was a rope to lead a horse, later called a halter; the rope with a noose at the end, the hangman’s tool. Maybe that joke in the first pgh. of IMP LIT is a a hint about how to interpret WWWH.

        This will help you get your macabre on: https://www.legendsofamerica.com/ah-lynching/

  34. Here’s something I’ve done more than a few times for each solve. I would try to put myself in the shoes of Forest Fenn carrying a TC with, for the sake of argument, let’s say two million dollars worth of contents. Knowing the history, lifestyle, dedication and hard work of Forest Fenn, try to write the poem as if you were he. Imagination comes to mind immediately.
    So, as I read his poem, for me it tells a story. Yes, the clues are there, but the entire Poem, in my opinion, is important. I understand, that emphasis is on the nine clues, but let’s try to imagine that the remainder of the poem compliments the clues.

    So, here goes without the rhyming, jazzy, whimsical spirit of Mr. Fenn.

    First Stanza:
    I went by myself into the area where I hid the treasure
    Man, was I ever nervous, but remained courageous,
    However, I knew the hide would be strictly confidential
    and I could give clues both of the past and present.

    Second Stanza:
    Start the search where the waters are neither flowing or cold
    then take your search into the valley low
    This is not a great distance, but don’t hike there
    Next find the home of Brown and put in there.

    Third Stanza:
    From this point is no place for the faint of heart
    You’ll be glad to know you are getter ever closer
    The stream is not one for your kayak
    the weight will be difficult to carry, the rivulet steep and elevated

    Fourth Stanza:
    One who is clever will have located the flash
    Simply looked down and spied the stash
    Don’t just stand there mesmerized (and laughing)
    Grab the booty and get the heck out of there man!

    Fifth Stanza:
    I know you are thinking, why I left
    And wanted you to find my riches
    For me, I have figured out life’s special meaning on my own
    By living the dream to fullest extent imaginable, and now exhausted

    Sixth Stanza:
    I can’t say this loud enough and with upmost importance
    Your determination will overcome feelings of callousness
    For when you are courageous, while in the Forest
    You will be given the golden certificate of the winner of life!

    It would be interesting to hear other versions, but feel free to pick mine apart/add to/change stanza’s, ect, ect.

    Thanks,
    dean

    • This is a very good post, Dean! I’ve been focusing on just this concept recently. Mainly in reference to the first stanza. That’s because I think being able to simply and accurately portray the actions of the first stanza reveals the location of the correct first clue.

      I’ll come back later tonight and give my view about how you portrayed the first stanza and tell my own.

        • Dean, sorry for the late response!

          First stanza…
          As I’ve gone alone in there
          And with my treasures bold,
          I can keep my secret where,
          And hint of riches new and old.

          And your description of the first stanza…

          I went by myself into the area where I hid the treasure
          Man, was I ever nervous, but remained courageous,
          However, I knew the hide would be strictly confidential
          and I could give clues both of the past and present.

          Here’s my description of it and some thoughts on yours…

          The first line-my description is similar to yours while adding that we want to keep open the possibility that the I spoken of isn’t just f but could also be about someone else in the past.

          Line 2- I focus on the boldness of the treasures and the ways that taking treasures somewhere private would be considered bold.

          Line 3- I think f’s use of the word secret in this line is important along with the later use of the word hint in the next line. I will explain below.

          Line 4- I noticed you wrote your description as (I) can give “clues” past and present. I feel there needs to be more preciseness here with this description as f writes “hints” in this line and not clues. We know that f has different descriptions of what a hint and a clue does for us searchers.

          So, I refer to it as f (and possibly some other person(s) in the past “hint” of treasures.

          I then combine all the lines as best I can to see if a big picture emerges as I think the individual lines are specific ingredients that tell a bigger story once combined.

          Like I alluded to above, I feel that there’s an inherent problem with us both and f stating that he can keep his secret completely confidential but in the very next line he says he can hint about it.

          The only two scenarios I can figure that one would hint of their very own confidential secret is in a treasure hunt such as this and while perpetrating a hoax.

          I don’t think the Chase is a hoax but I can see f knowing about a very big hoax that happened in the Rocky Mountains before. I’ve written about this here and there. It seems like a neat way to hide some mysterious puzzle pieces to a riddle/puzzle.

  35. The clues based on my solve require me to loop back and cross over my previous track.
    This backtrack occurs after “home of brown”.

    • Hello Tarheel,
      That’s Cool, I always thought others may have a round-about in their solve. I have a couple that do as well.
      dean

    • Tarheel: are you sure that’s a good idea?

      “If you follow the poem precisely, will you find yourself switching back?”

      FF: “If I follow the clues in the poem precisely, would I what?”

      “Will you find yourself switching back? Making a loop.”

      FF: “This gal’s dangerous, you know?! … Would I find myself switching back… I think I can say no to that without giving away too much of the clues.”

      • There are a couple of scenarios that could explain Fenn’s hesitancy to answer this…and his saying…”…I think I can say no…”

        • #1. You don’t really loop or switch back…..

          #2. It is however part of the solve….I remember him as a boy getting into trouble…..

          • Hey Sherif…I believe so. The steps Fenn took to just hide the treasure may differ from the “full” plan were he to stay with the treasure undetected.

      • Zap,
        switch backs refer to a steep incline, which was what the “gal” was referring to.
        The loop has nothing to do with switchbacks.
        dean

        • Okay, let me clarify, for those not familiar with mountain climbing/hiking.
          Switchbacks are used on a trail or highway that climbs a steep incline. This allows the climber to proceed at a more, lets say, comfortable rate as opposed to digging and clawing your way up. It is also better for the environment, as you could imagine if everyone took the straight up approach the potential for rock slides and unsafe activity would be ever present. I hope this helps. And, once again, this has nothing to do with the loop or the solve that may come full or nearly full circle.
          dean

          • Dean-

            Do you think they have switchbacks in Arizona?
            As I recall I think f spent some time there, didn’t he?

        • Except, Dean, she DID specifically say “making a loop.” Forrest may have chosen to deliberately answer only part of her question — the switching back part. He didn’t repeat her words about making a loop.

      • Zap,
        I found that specific Q&A intriguing, as well. Though F didn’t address the ‘loop’ in his answer, it did reveal, IMO, a level of importance in the question.

        – Remember F’s (mis)quote of the excerpt from Eliot’s ‘Little Gidding’ poem?
        – Remember F’s multiple comments regarding the importance of where to start (first clue)?
        – Remember F questioning Ben and his “reverse engineer[ing]” question? F’s question in his response to Ben can be inferred as rhetorical, but is it? An inference is, at best, a guess at implication.
        http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest/

        Just a few scattered thoughts.
        Joe

        • Yes, I don’t think it was a trivial question for Forrest to answer. Thus his “This gal’s dangerous” comment (and audience laughter) which allowed him to stall for a little time while he thought how to respond.

      • Zap, and why didn’t he answered a simple ‘no’ to that question and instead he said, ‘I think I can say no to that without giving away too much of the clues.’

        • Would depend on how Forrest chose to interpret the words “switching back.” We all know what a trail switchback is, so if you aren’t ever on a trail with a switchback, Forrest could say no to the question. Probably means there’s no doubling-back either, else people would complain that Forrest didn’t truthfully answer the spirit of the question.

          But would he still be fibbing if the route to the chest takes a big turn much greater than 90 degrees? How much greater before his “no” is prevaricating? 😉

          • I see what you are saying. Was the Gal talking about physically stomping from place to place when she asked ‘following the poem precisely’?

          • I think Forrest is nearly deaf sitting in between engines as an Air force Pilot for many years.
            I cannot trust any ATF verbal Q & A.
            What did she say???
            Sad but true.

    • Dean, Zap and the rest,
      My solve has a loop from the “put in below the home of the Brown”. To get to the put in I will go past the HOB, park my car, put on waders and go back upstream. Following my stream from where I park requires a loop to head back upstream. Therefore, it will be water high as I head upstream. My solve requires going down canyon which has a stream (downstream) to park and then reverse course back upstream but not along the road which I took to get there. Not a trail switchback but instead a loop. The stream makes for no human trail in close proximity as I will be in the water (not dangerous…very shallow, waist deep at most even with moderate rainfall). Hope this makes sense and helps anyone with their solve.

      • Tarheel Searcher, if following a search path requires
        a searcher to be walking in waist-deep water, then
        the search path is not the valid one indicated by the
        poem.

        Enough people (more than enough, actually) have died by taking unnecessary risks on this hunt.

        Please don’t become another, and please don’t encourage any other searchers to walk in waist-deep water in search of the Fenn treasure.

        The above is my opinion, and is VERY important
        to me. I hope it’s also VERY important to others.

        • tighterfocus,

          A sincere thanks for your concern. I am not a chance taker like that and will not be in any fast moving or high water which would threaten my safety.
          I always wear a personal flotation device and chest waders even in ankle deep water….just in case the next step is deeper than expected. I also walk with two walking poles for support. Being in the water is just a small portion of my search and I stay on land if possible.
          My solve area and stream is very shallow and I’ve only been in waist deep once and then backed out and walked the bank for a few yards to get back to the shallows.
          As for everyone else who reads this, tighterfocus is correct. Always take the utmost precautions, don’t take chances and remain aware of your surroundings.
          Once again, many thanks for your concern.

          • Chest waders are death traps once you fall into the water, and the waders fill up with water – Just ask Randy – If he could answer, but alas, he can’t R.I.P. JDA

          • Tarheel Searcher,
            Tighter Focus has good safety advice.
            Let me share a true story, for your safety and the safety of others. I responded to a call of a possible drowning here on the west coast of Florida. This was in calm waters in the inter-coastal waters. A fisherman wearing “waders” had walked out to a point where the water was waist/above waist high. He either lost his balance or stepped into a low spot. The end result was his waders filled with water and the weight of the water took him under.
            I have witnessed too many victims of drownings and many times their family’s are nearby. Once you are gone, there is no bringing you back. None of these people left their homes with the intentions of never returning. The family members are left heart broken and it is a first responders worst nightmare. We want you live, not witness your death and have that etched in our brains, your family, your friends brains for the remainder of our/their lives. Please, please, please heed to the advise of those who care/love you. There is no treasure/money that can replace your life.
            Thanks to tighterfocus and others for bringing this very important safety message up. I need to hear it as well and remind myself of the dangers that are in the Rockies.
            I believe that at the time I think I have everything under control, this is most likely the time when I am most vulnerable to an unsafe act.
            Please don’t look at this as just someone trying to talk you out of what you believe in. We all believe in our personal solves, as do you. It’s a beautiful thing to be in the thrill of the chase. Just remember this Tarheel Searcher, don’t let the thrill of the chase become the kill of chase.
            Be safe,
            Best of luck to you!!
            dean

          • Dean and JDA,
            I will heed the advice and be very careful. I truly thank all for their sincere concern.
            Tarheel

    • One Adam Twelve, One Adam Twelve. Treasure chest has been found by a gray haired burly man driving a white van with Washington plates who speaks with a heavy Australian accent. $50,000 reward.
      It’s not me, I’m from the Carolina area…..matey.
      I’ve seen “The Usual Suspects” and am wondering if there is a fall guy in this request?
      Hope you find your patsy, I mean suspect, I mean Australian.
      Just kidding Dal. LOL.
      I’ve Been watching way too many of the TCM Black Noir mystery movies.

  36. Sheriff Billy, Too Funny! Yes and he spent time in China as welll.How do like them apples?
    Thanks for the insight

  37. Sheriff Billy,
    If I were on a mountain in Montana called Blaze. Do you hunk that has any reevance to the Poem? And if the Blaze was so large, it was a looong WHITE BLAZE from nearly top to bottom. Then someone said look quickly down, would you begin digging in the snow. And if so would your effort be worth the cold.
    Baaaaah, ha ha ha ha……. And if the cold was in the wood, does that mean you listened good! Lmao….. welll I guess that makes absolutely no sense at all. I wish someone would just go get the darn treasure, Imean wth are you waiting for anyway, an invitation…..yak, yak, yak
    Best of luck to ya!! I’m out of gas!! Lol

  38. I think the people that have been on the right road are within 500ft.
    Those that parked and walked in the right direction were within 200 feet.
    At that point they were supposed to go right or left but didn’t know it.

      • so in reality if you think you have the correct spot. Park your car, walk 300 feet and make a right go 200 feet and look. Then go back to your car, walk 300 feet make a left and go 200 feel and look.

        • I’m not sure that would work as the distance referred has “within” in the description. So to me it could be any distance within 500′.
          After BOTG in my solve area it would be very difficult as the river and canyon widens and narrows. You could be walking at a 70 degree angle straight up the side of the canyon for 250′ or 500′. I have done this without 40lbs so I don’t think Forrest did this as it would have been very difficult.
          I think he went up a stream in shallow water and hid the TC on the bank about 6 feet up.
          The within 500′ and 200′ feet, to me, are the distances from the road. People passed by and kept on going, no knowing they had been so close. IMO.

    • Kelly: concur. Stay in your car and you’ll never get closer than 500 feet. In my opinion, the few that have gotten within 200 feet had no clue that they had, and ironically wouldn’t have been there if they had correctly solved “Put in below the home of Brown.”

      • I would add that not only didn’t they know where the treasure was, even if they had the thought, they didn’t understand HOW to proceed.

        That is specific to my solve, don’t know about yours.

        Park at 500 feet we agree. My clue 1 your 2 or 3.
        Anyone can, and some have, walked to the 200 foot spot.

        Probably looked right at it from that distance.
        End of Fenn’s rainbow.

        Lugnutz

        • Agreed. For 5 trips I thought I had it solved but never new I was close or far away. Any of us who have had BOTG could have been the ones within 500′.

          • True. A person can be 2 feet from it laterally but 498′ above it vertically and not see it below them….assuming they were standing near the edge of a cliff overlooking an area. I’ve done this in the Red River Gorge….what a sight.

          • You could be 101 miles away if Fenn only mean that searchers have been to 9500 and 9800 feet.

        • Lug,

          True…good point.
          I’m getting a little out there. Thanks for reeling me back in.

  39. What if …..longfellow, lightening, mountain men, baby bears, mother, rainbows, leprechauns, ducks, donkeys, pigs, tea and cutlery, pineapples, Folgers and Maxwell coffee, spices and Native Indian astronomy, Sloane and Earhart,”men of the woods”, camping and fishing,Honor and Heritage, Family, Hiawatha, Manifest destiny, Native American Sacred sites, MIA/POW, glance and galena, early American history, rare gems…..(I could continue)….are you listening f ?….. all came together with a wonderful view near multiple boarders…..NOW THAT WOULD BE A PLACE TO LOOK!

    I wish it was only that simple. But..I have a gut feeling that place exists.

    I own cattle and I have raised buffalo and horses, and I can assure you, it isn’t so easy to round them up when the’re hiding in the woods. Nuf said.

    All the above is mine and the deputy’s opinion.

    Billy and the deputy (The Jayhawk Posse)

    • Billy,

      I have a wild suggestion. What if none of those things matter, at all? What if every word written or out of the mouth of ff is -not- a clue.?

      He wrote a tricky and complicated poem that is also so vague you can make it apply to your own bathtub. Then, he continued to write and talk for years and many have studied his words in more detail than they do the Son of God.
      That serves 2 purposes. It makes the name Forrest Fenn appear to be immortal…but that quickly fades, once the chest is found. It also serves to distract 99.987% of those involved all wishing for an inside track on the poem.

      IMHO, the one who ignores all the noise and applies a bit of “wise…imagination” to the poem as presented will become “immortal” for their “10 minutes of fame,” or go silently away, if they haven’t already.

      I raise cattle too. Give them a little feed, with the same vocal call each time. Keep your fences in good shape and the last thing they will try to do is “hide.” Likewise, apply “wise…imagination” to the poem and the poem alone. Then, the “wood” will not be able to hide the chest, either.

      • LMN-

        I honk the horn…they all come running..

        I also have a wild suggestion…
        What is the chance, I might know where that area is? Not likely right?

        Yes, IMO, just about every time Mr. f opens his mouth he gives a little clue. He is honest to a T but he knows how you will interpret it. (All the while smiling) He didn’t even know where Borders bookstore was in Sante Fe.. IMO.

        His answer is always honest but leading……. Each and every time he explains what a blaze is…..he is sure to include a description of the real one. NMO That is fact! If not true Dal, (better check with the man first) kick me off.
        I personally doubt he ever got into trouble….. It was Skippy (that one I’m not 100% sure) IMO

        Once again I ask (there has to be an attorney out there) how can you discover the identity of the principles of a corporation, that don’t want to be known other than filing a complaint? Maybe I’ll ask the circuit judge when he comes thru…..All above is my opinion.

        Best regards to all;
        Where’s my deputy?

        Billy

        • Billy;

          When you say,”His answer is always honest but leading……. Each and every time he explains what a blaze is…..he is sure to include a description of the real one. NMO That is fact!” –

          What proof do you have for your above statement? NONE! You do not have the TC, therefore, you do NOT know what the blaze is! You MAY think that you know, but you have no proof, because you do not have Indulgence.

          I am quite sure that I know what the blaze is, and although it has been mentioned in a couple of Forrest’s books, it has NEVER been identified by Forrest as the blaze.

          Come on spring. It will be nice to be able to back up my statement – JMO – JDA

          • JDA- I like you, but I am sorry you are mistaken. True, the posse doesn’t have the chest. But your conclusion that I don’t have proof or have not been there is incorrect.

            Sorry Dal, I’ll shut up.
            Best of luck to everyone!

            1 F Billy and the deputy!

          • Billy;

            Just because you have been to your spot, and seen what you think is the correct blaze does not make it so, until you have Indulgence – enough said. Have a great hunt, and best of luck – JDA

          • Barcelo;

            BOTG = Boots On The Ground – actively searching – on ground – at your search location.

            Marcelo, I am sorry that I am not prepared to answer that question right now. Two years ago I thought that it was a prominent land feature – Like a cliff or a bluff or a big hill – Something like that. Then I thought that it was a waterfall. I now think it is something smaller than these two things.

            Sorry that you can not read any of Forrest’s books. The poem CAN lead one to Indulgence, hints in the books just make it a bit easier.

            Good luck – I appreciate your input – JDA

        • Hmmm,
          This is going to get me in trouble.
          Very Interesting Sheriff B, the principles of a corporation, as you say, are normally protected or fall under the “big umbrella.” What most people don’t know is that the “big umbrella” is also apart of the corporation. So, when you write your complaint, guess where it goes. Bingo!! To the complaint department…….at the corporate HQ……which is in close proximity to the Office of the CEO, GM or Owner.
          You will then receive lip service, until you are satisfied, your complaint goes in the round file and you go back to honking your horn. And, hopefully there is no psycho Mr. Buffalo Bull charging at you…..lol
          Do you see the correlation within TOTC? No. Keep looking, it’s kind of clouded by way of “indulgence.” lol
          JMHO
          dean

        • What about it? – This is not the blaze thread but still – what are you asking? – JDA

          • JDA,
            This is a continuation of the same conversation we were having about the nine clues. I sent you a comment about the 360 scenario involving the Blaze. Just wanted to get your thoughts, if you care to share. No problem if not.

        • Say What?

          Question posted 7/4/2014:

          Forrest, What’s the minimum number of clues that we need to solve to find the treasure, assuming that we follow the clues in order? `Serge Teteblanche

          Just one Serge, the last one.f

          Your Honor, no further questions….
          I rest my case.
          dean

  40. Upthread, Seeker wrote: ” I would love to know what got the early searchers to this location… if they didn’t know they had those two clues correct… Yep, That is a head scratcher …”
    ——————————————————————————————————-
    Perhaps I can answer that.

    They were in the correct area because they had been attracted to it by false clues. Since the false clues led them nowhere, they gave up on the area, not knowing that there were real clues that they had missed.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken TX,
      False clues, as in guessing-?- what a reference to a clue could be? Or maybe you mean, Aberrations as in, something different, yet from the book or poem?
      Note; I say the book or poem, because prior to 2013ish there were very little ATF comments that could have help.

      Do you mean the readers are only seeing what they hope is a clue, or do you me fenn threw in [ for lack of a better term ]~ red herrings to make it harder to find the correct clue references?

      I mean, I can see how a story or two from the book can give a possible location or a hunch from the poem pop a thought to a state etc. However, those early searchers mentioned the ‘clues references’… Getting to the right location is one thing, but not being able to put more together while on site is another, right? That’s the head banger! Especially, when we’re told we need to be there…

      So we have;
      Folks on site, mentioning clues in order, apparently walking near, by, passing remaining clue references [ and as of this date, many more have done the same ] And many seemingly within 500’ of the whole tally… lol
      What is missing from there solves?
      What are they all not observing on site?
      What seems to drift them all away from this area?
      Is there really planning involve/implemented when it come to the actual clues?

      Does it really matter that much about WWWh, that when seen, [even if we get there by a guess or false clue] and have at least one additional clue [ maybe more, up to 1/2 of them ] they still can’t understand how to bring it together ‘on site’ with that much info and landscape, right in front of them?

      The idea of this being; a stomping mode, point to point, follow the dotted line solutions, is failing horribly [8 years and many searcher who live an breath the challenge]. Whether or not it’s all hiking or other modes of movement… I think everyone is skipping the idea of observing and planning to finalize the correct outcome.

      End of commentary….

      • Very good Ken from Tx,
        For example, If I start my solve at WWWH (lake solicitude) and take it in the canyon down, then up Spanish Fork/creek (no paddle) and get to my Blaze (Blaze mountain), and look quickly down. Now there is “wood” which is defined as a small forest or dense group of trees. So, this Blaze is a 1600′ strtch of white snow. Below 10K and above 5K feet, which I believe has the treasure hidden…….where you may ask? In the snow!! There I said it. It’s some where in the snow…..which in this particular area, seems to be visible year ’round. Call me crazy, but if my solve is true, where is indulgence. Well, if I listened good, it’s in the wood, quickly down from the Blaze.
        Now, I have observed, and planned. Does this mean I will have the correct outcome! Hail to the no!! Is it possible that my solve is correct, or that I have been within 200’/500′ of the treasure. Absolutely! And, if someone else finds it….good for them. JMHO
        Now go get the darn treasure, because when June comes, you know where I’m going. No big secret here. And, you and anyone else are welcome to join me in the fun! I feel that is one of the problems here, most seekers are afraid to share their solve. This nonsense has gone on long enough, the more searching my solve area the better. Easter is almost here, let the golden egg be revealed!!
        Sorry, I get a bit excited at times!! I hope that doesn’t offend anyone who may be on the serious-side……let me straighten my tie here and get back to reality, what was I thinking anyway. lol
        dean

        • Dean ~ ‘where you may ask? In the snow!’… ‘Blaze is a 1600′ strtch of white snow…’

          I can’t help myself sometimes, lol.

          Does this sound like a ‘blaze’ that would have the possibility of being around in, let say, 50 or 100 years or more?
          I mean, have you’ve been there in summer and saw the snow, or only on GE [ which could, more likely be, exposed rock? ].
          Many experts say, in fifty years there will be no glaciers in GNP, and those ice cubes can be 100′ – 300′ plus thick, right?
          If we take fenn’s Q&A comment; If you find the blaze the distance [to the chest] would be obvious… It seems that a 1600′ stretch of snow would holds…, well,… a lot of 10″ sq pieces of real-estate. That doesn’t seem very precise to me.
          In addition, we have fenn saying, something to the affect about buried vs, hidden ~ what if debris blows in there… I mean, if under snow year round how could that happen? and what happens if that chunk of white stuff turns out to be solid as a rock [ice]…??

          “if you can find the treasure it won’t be a big job for you to get it”

          Just saying…………..

          • You know Seeker, I feel the same way you do….I have been watching and reading and biting my tongue……..for such a looooong time now. And now I can’t help myself either!! lol Oh the arrogance….when will it stop….never I suppose. Anywho, there’s this cool old dude, named Forest Fenn. You see, he hid a treasure for everyone’s enjoyment. To go forth in the Rockies and thread a trek through the wiles of nature. Sound familiar so far. But wait, there are actually people out there that seem to think the have a solve or two….possibly more. And like me, I have had the audacity to share one of my solves. Why, you may ask? Because, I DON’T BELIEVE THE SEARCH WAS DESIGNED FOR ONE GREEDY PERSON TO FIND THE TC. Especially, an arrogant, selfish, greedy person, if there is one out there. And that comment is not directed at you or anyone else in particular. I’m just saying if the shoe fits, ect., ect. So, once it’s found….and the man himself actually said it. Many will say, Duh, why didn’t I think of that, or well that makes perfect sense. Not that mine does, but I do think the one who finds it will go directly to it with confidence and ten walk away in Peace. Now, I assume you were condescending for a reason…..so I will humor your response.
            1. According to my extensive research the Mountain was Not given that name last week, last year or even in the previous decade. I know, that’s a shocker!!
            2. Man, sometimes I just can’t help myself…….And, upon further review of this particular elevated location, it’s actually known to the locals (I’m guessing you are not one of them) as one of the favorite spots for summer fun! What kind of fun? That’s right, skiing. And no, not water skiing. You’ll have to guess the type of skiing, I think I’m giving up way to much here….lol hardy, har, har.
            3. Really, I can’t go on with this much longer….wait news flash, what? The name of Blaze Mountain is being changed due to global warmer. Dang it Seeker, you were right all along. Well, I guess I cross that one off my list. Did I tell you solve that has Firehole River, or wait I have another with the gal that tried to fly around the world. What am I saying….global warming will melt the snow and then all the water will be warm. There will be no way to distinguish warm water from cold water. How will we ever find the treasure……oh, the insanity!!
            4. Whew!! Thank you Seeker, you have put me in my place and I am forever grateful. Please, if I start rambling again, can you just give me some of your “knowlege.”
            Much appreciated
            PS. oh yeah, the Blaze is on the NW side of the mountain, in sort of a draw (that’s a navigational term) you know sort of like “drawing nigh”, not that it matters or anything. But, it does seem to keep the fluffy white stuff around in the summer! And, yes I have been there, in June and October. What did I see both times? You got it brother…..snow.
            I will admit though, it does seem that you have much more supporting evidence than I.
            Thanks for your thoughts Seeker, all jokes aside. I do appreciate your insight, it makes me a stronger person for sure.
            Best of luck in your venture!
            dean

          • Dean –

            Hi! You can continue arguing with Seeker on how unlikely it is that the Answer is Blaze mountain. That’s about as likely as Madison Junction being involved.

            I would like to talk to you about your Kirwin solve. You referred to Amelia Earhart but didn’t name her as if no one had ever thought about it before. We have discussed this many times over many years so feel free to say the site of Amelia Earharts cabin. I am not going to google Earhart for spelling to I just say Kirwin.

            Many people love the idea until you try to drive out there.

            Those of us who like it have a tough time putting it down because when you are standing at the foot of Brown Mountain you are standing in the Wood. Right?

            Is there a creek involved? Which one? Cascade? Spar? Canyon? Galena?

            In the end it’s a reverse solve. Looking at the Wood and Brown before you have a WWWH and then trying to make something fit.

            So I ask you, where’s your warm waters halt?

            Lugnutz

          • Dean,
            You can rattle on all ya want to how you got to this point in your solve… my comment was strictly about the blaze portion of you theory.
            I mean, we are told a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help, and that fenn was thinking down the road centuries from now.
            Dismiss what ya like, twist it so it works for you, bend it till it breaks… Doesn’t really matter to me what you actually do… we’re just BSing on a Blog.

      • Morning/Afternoon Seeker. I’m not sure the abundance of ATF information from Forrest has helped that much, seeing as how most searchers’ solutions that we read about happily hand-wave away the remarks that don’t fit their narrative. The bottom line is that most solutions are blissfully uncontaminated by logic, and it’s a wonder that so many people actually do go out there into the Rockies on far less than a wing and a prayer. At least mission-accomplished for Forrest: he got ’em off the couch.

        “The idea of this being; a stomping mode, point to point, follow the dotted line solutions, is failing horribly…”

        But can you really say it’s failing horribly? (And I don’t know that you can level that charge at just “stomping mode” — clearly ALL methods have failed to solve to completion so far.) Multiple parties solved the first two clues in 2013 or earlier — 5 years ago, perhaps longer. I’d say that’s pretty good (in retrospect). What’s remarkable has been the 4- or 5-year hiatus in making progress (with the possible exception of comparatively recently — the 3 or 4 clue comment). But this is actually a helpful discriminant against bad solutions. Let me explain.

        Evidently the third clue’s answer is not at all obvious, since none of the early two-clue-solvers figured it out. So if you think you’ve got the first two clues correctly solved, and the third clue is glaringly obvious to you … then it’s wrong. It’s wrong because if it’s obvious to you, it would have been obvious to one of the many that came before you. Simple example: if Madison Junction is WWWH, and Madison Canyon is the canyon down, then Hebgen Lake is home of Brown. Bad solution for a lot of reasons, but mostly because if it was right then at least three clues would have been solved back in 2013, not two. For safety’s sake, I’m forced to admit this is not a known fact from Forrest’s mouth or fingers — it is my opinion. But the logic behind it is rather inescapable.

        • Zap,
          That’s all fine and I agree or see the logic in most of it… yet, is it the only thing holding back a full solution the third clue idea?
          Not that is matters to many, but I have to wonder why, when on site [ earlier searchers and the more up to date searchers as well ] later clues have not been understood enough to bring it all together. Regardless of what is obvious or not.

          We can make all the excuse we want about what a clue is or is not, or how important one clue is over another… but it seems more and more, there is much more to wwwh than just its location… lol… then again we have the Q&A; why be concern about wwwh…. right?

          Then again we have some who might/may have the first 4… C’mon… that has to include hoB by the fourth clue, and if so… and hoB would take us right to the chest, line of thinking… What is it that is holding up the understanding of how these clues unfold/work?

          We are told to nail down clue 1 WWWH, without that we have nothing, and might as well stay home… Ok, it’s [wwwh] been mentioned and searchers present at wwh, and many searcher end up within 500′ of the actual hide. LOL what’s wrong with that picture?
          Imagination?
          Not really nailing down clue 1, even when at it?
          HoB is the most important clue to nail down-?- and wwwh was blown out of proportion?
          Folks think this is a hike from one point to another [ doesn’t matter distance ].
          But yet, we still have planning and observing, right? Can you recall any solve you have heard of that as both those elements for finalizing a solve?

          What you are read in my post is not frustration… it acknowledgement that these clues are so closely related and fit like a glove… the blueprint of it all might not end up being as many think it is… a hike from point to point. But hey, we’re all having fun and that’s the whole point we try to attempt this challenge.. right?

        • Hi Seeker,

          “… but it seems more and more, there is much more to wwwh than just its location…”

          I know you believe so, but why? I get the sense that you think there is some hidden meaning or importance behind WWWH (beyond its mere identity) that eludes those who have been there, and this hidden meaning is what’s preventing their solution of the later clues. I don’t think it’s that at all.

          I believe the only reason Forrest emphasizes the importance of figuring out the first clue — the starting point — WWWH — is that so few people have done so. He sees a lot of searchers (got to be over 95%) literally wasting their time, energy and money focused on solving later clues because they think they’ve got WWWH all figured out, when in fact they don’t. As you like to say, many did little more than throw a dart at a map of the Rockies, picking something that seemed like a reasonable answer to “where warm waters halt,” and then found support for it on a map, in the books, or Forrest’s other communications (i.e. confirmation bias). That is not an approach that inspires confidence, and it’s not a strategy for truly nailing down that first clue. Forrest has provided a self-contained puzzle within a poem, yet I see so few searchers treating it as such. All of Forrest’s commentary emphasizing the importance of the first clue is directed at people who HAVEN’T figured it out, not the tiny fraction who have.

          • Hi Zap;

            I am not Seeker, but let me put in my two cents.

            I agree with Seeker regarding the importance of knowing the “WHY” of the first clue.

            Why does TTOTC and TFTW and OUAW all have a preface or foreward – as do many many other books? The Preface or Foreward have the intent of setting the tone of what follows.

            I think that the “WHY” of wwwh plays this same role. If you understand the “WHY”, you get insight into the “WHY” of the whole poem, and the secreting of Indulgence… This insight opens many doors that give insight into many “secrets” held within the poem – at least it does for me. Seeker will have to give his perspective, I can not speak for him – Just how I see it – JDA

          • The one thing your not mentioning, Zap, is; fenn hasn’t, to my knowledge, mentioned the first clue solve alone. It as always been the first two clues. That may seem trivial to some, but how many comments are there about the clues…

            Before you blow that off, think about the next comments that we have little information on… the first four clues some may have been solved, and the latest comment, gut feeling. So you may say that it doesn’t matter about wwwh, as much as it may be of more importance to why the second clue is always mentioned with it… and not stated on its own.

            A clue is simply a clue… but how many clues give us an answer -?- a correct understanding-?- the correct reading intended the way fenn sees it… blueprinting those clues.

          • Seeker: I suspect the reason we’ve never heard about one-clue solvers is that the second clue may be a no-brainer. For instance, if the second clue is “Take it in the canyon down,” and from the correct WWWH there is only one canyon that it could possibly be, then that would explain the lack of 1-clue solvers. In this scenario anyone who had solved WWWH would get the second clue for free.

          • Zap,
            Yep, it could be that simple… or it could be the blinders that has everyone not using; imagination or understanding what it is they are observing at clue 1. I
            In that alternative scenario… clue two is a must to understand what wwwh is about and why he started the clues from that point.
            I just have a hard time to surmise that the time spent of the poem, the effort put into it, and the consistency of repeating to have it nailed down or you have notta is simply a starting point only…. IMO and it’s only an opinion, fenn may have want us to start here because there was no other place we could have.

            This brings me back to the hoB comment… why be concerned about wwwh if you know hoB… It might not be so much wwwh brings or take one beyond to hoB… it could be something else altogether.
            Basically saying you need wwwh and canyon and the rest to understand hoB… making them clues of a single place and reasoning, before staking a single step further.
            Have you thought that maybe clues two and/or three explain more about what we need to do at clue one? Rather than attempting to stomp them out.

            Yep, lol… I know. Overthinking and analyzing again … I may have to look up “difficult” one more time.

          • Seeker and Zap,

            IMO once you understand how to solve the first clue(s), then line 8 becomes “simple”, so-to-speak, since a similiar technique is used, though there may still be a little work to do regarding how to apply the answer.

            Pinatubocharlie

          • Forrest, you have stated that several searchers correctly identified the first two clues in your poem. Could you tell us how many searchers to your knowledge have correctly identified the first clue correctly? Thanks. ~49 Dollars

            No 49, I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly. f

            http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-first-clue/

          • 9=9,
            Nice catch.
            LOL… Alllthooouugh… fenn answered the question as presented.
            We’ll call that one a give and take, if we twist it a bit… lol

          • Seeker, 9, et al. – here is one more comment on many searchers having found only the first clue:

            http://dalneitzel.com/2015/11/02/forrest-gets-mail-9/

            For me, the implication is that these many seemed to have missed ‘the canyon down’. Why? All I can go with is what f says, the clues are not easy to figure out.

            I find the latest discussion on the subject of those who solved clues and people being within whatever hundred feet as a bit late to the party. This has been a topic I have been following and studying closely for several years… it just seems to be the latest hot topic of late that some are finally discovering, or that makes good fodder.

            Without publishing a dissertation on the whole topic, I will just make a few points from what I have picked up and discovered over the years.

            1. Picking and choosing one or several of all the comments on the topic will NOT get a person to the correct understanding of what f has been alluding to in what have been general statements with small amounts of detail.

            2. A full review, analysis, and comparison of all the comments, lined up in chronological order, reveal patterns and trends which point to very specific facts that most are missing. Some people have partially picked up on some of them, but are still missing significant and important conclusions.

            3. The theories of late, which are all the rage, where the total distance from beginning to end or for the last 7-8 clues, is only hundreds of feet, are simply wrong.

            Just my smelly opinion – steeped in many, many hours of study, analysis, and thinking.

          • Hi JCM — just a few remarks on your recent post, much of the numbered points toward the end I agree with (particularly the 3rd).

            First, regarding Forrest Gets Mail #9 (the maybe-solved-four-clues post):

            “For me, the implication is that these many seemed to have missed ‘the canyon down’. Why? All I can go with is what f says, the clues are not easy to figure out.”

            I disagree with the first part; the canyon down is quite unambiguous. That’s not what causes searchers to go off into the weeds. In 2013 (or perhaps 2012), people correctly figured out WWWH and the canyon down. This probably irks people today, so they poo-poo these early solvers claiming they just ~happened~ to be at WWWH but didn’t know it. Hah! Right. Multiple independent groups converging on the same spot in millions of square kilometers by luck. Talk about wishful thinking.

            “I find the latest discussion on the subject of those who solved clues and people being within whatever hundred feet as a bit late to the party.”

            Searchers are naturally titillated and intrigued by such banter, but it’s not going to help them solve the starting point, which is what they should be focused on. None of the distance data is of any use until the Canasta cards have long been put away.

        • “Blissfully uncontaminated by logic” that’s really funny. Is that original or did you borrow the line?

          • Hi John: I’m glad you liked it. It’s original (at least to my knowledge). Subconsciously I borrowed from Monty Python’s Cheese Sketch.

      • what one person sees as a red herring another person might see as truth and action?wording that is approval. IMHO

  41. My prospective on how to evaluate the clues, is just that, my prospective. Folks cans use as they may or just disregard, it’s been fun to speculate, but for me added fun is to share ones theories and why. I would hope after the chest has been found, Mr. Fenn will share the true meaning of the nine clues and his thought process developing these clues.

    As for my arm chair evaluation, I believe even if the general location is discovered within 200 ft. of the chest, one would have to be there to discover the chests final location.

    Me, sitting in my chair in Louisiana will find nothing, but my process might help others.
    I have shared this paper with other’s and wanted to also share with you.

    Use as you may.
    Best Regards,
    Doug Meyer
    The below is the link to my paper. Everyone be safe nd have fun.

    https://dalneitzel.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Where-Warm-Waters-Halt.pdf

    • That is awesome Doug, I too wish that others would come together. Somehow I get the feel that some are threatened by new ideas. This is exactly why I will continue posting my ideas/solves. I hope it helps out the guy with the pick up truck that loads his family and throws the bed rolls in the back in search of hope.
      Again, great work on your paper and many kudos to you!
      dean

    • Doug—-

      That is a very impressive article. I really enjoyed reading through it. Thanks so much for sharing it with us.

    • Doug –

      I am a person that loves New Orleans.
      I used to drive down and so I have been through Slidell many times. Good people. Salt of the earth!

      I will devote some time to reading your treatise later today.

      Lugnutz Dodge

    • Doug,
      I haven’t read it all [your doc]… I tend to take time an soak ideas in slowly.
      The one thing I like to mention was your wwwh buck load.
      While the concept is good, the idea is still a bit weak for me. What I mean is, fenn has stated there are billions of blazes in the RM’s as well… they all can’t be of the same idea/design/mark, right?
      Isn’t the concept of WWWH still a dart toss to just find the many of one type for that bucket? [ you may have explained and I haven’t gotten there yet, but that was my first thought ]. And as you said; many doesn’t have to be millions, but if fenn didn’t mean a specific WWWH ‘type’ in those comments, we could be back to millions.

      One thing is factual though… if you have a WWWH that is not related to “below’ SF, I’d doubt it’s correct. I think the reverse could be the same… if a specific WWWH is only found “south” of SF, it would kill that Idea as well.

      • Could that be the clue about Canada that he didn’t want to give away? Borders/ US and Canada? Maybe a reference to wwwh in Canada and below in US?

      • I am a little dense. Can you explain the wwwh ‘below’ Santa Fe comment please?

        • Alopes,
          fenns comment about the many WWWH’s in the RM’s
          “… and nearly all of them are N. of SF…”

          So, to have the correct wwwh in your solve, your wwwh ‘reference’ should be found below SF as well.
          Which raises the question… can all the wwwh [actual reference] refer to each other, or are they all connected, and we need to know what hoB refers to, to know the correct location of the correct wwwh…
          But the only way to find hoB is to understand fully what wwwh refers to?

          Example; should wwwh refer to the CD [ continental divide ] problem solved, for South of SF.
          But we need hoB and only one is evident in one place on the CD. IF we have the correct reference for hoB, then we should have the correct location… ‘beforehand’

          Some may not like this idea because it give pause to what is a clue and its order… in this case/theory; clue 1 would be stanza’s two first sentence, and clue 2 be hoB, the second sentence.
          That would mean, stanza three and four would have to pick up the slack for the remaining clues.

          Hypothetically…….

          • I understand. The type of WWH that the poem refers to. Yes, I think that if most are North of Santa Fe then logic would say that others are South of Santa Fe. Thank you for explaining. I don’t think that WWH and HoB are connected by anything other than consecutive order. I hope that makes sense.

        • Seeker opines: “So, to have the correct wwwh in your solve, your wwwh ‘reference’ should be found below SF as well.”

          Whoa, whoa, whoa! Disagree! Explanation: people come up with all kinds of fanciful ideas for where warm waters halt (most of which are Twilight Zone material). Some of that garbage has properties that can be found in places south of Santa Fe; most (by simple geography) would be exhibited north of Santa Fe. There is ZERO requirement for the uniqueness of Forrest’s WWWH to exhibit properties found both north of Santa Fe and south of it. So it is extremely bad advice to dismiss a candidate WWWH just because it has no analog south of Santa Fe.

          I’ll actually double-down on this point: if the properties of your WWWH *can* be found in another place south of Santa Fe — in my opinion, it’s WRONG.

          • Zap;

            And I will opine that you are not correct – just MY opinion. I would say that the characteristics of my wwwh can be found almost any place on the planet – Well maybe not in the Sahara or on Antarctica – but most places similarly found through out the USA. JMO – JDA

          • Zap ~’There is ZERO requirement for the uniqueness of Forrest’s WWWH to exhibit properties found both north of Santa Fe and south of it.’

            ___________________________

            Q~ Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman 
            A~ There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many ***places*** in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, ***and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.*** Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f 

            Zap, you added “uniqueness” to the equation… IF fenn’s reference of WWH is as you say… how can there be many [ regardless of numbers ] In the Rockies-?- and added – that “nearly all” can only mean one thing…
            Some must be below.
            There is nothing ambiguous about “nearly” in that answer. It means most, not all.

            Should fenn’s comments about the “many wwwh in the RM’s” refer to only ‘one of its kind’ there still has to be one below SF. of ‘Its kind’

            Should fenn’s comment refer to any possible wwh ‘idea’… it still has to refer to at least one South of SF.

            The point to the answer was to say ; “…***You over simplify the clues***. [the question] There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt,*** and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.*** Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f ”

            So in theory…
            ‘My thoughts’ are completely opposite of “uniqueness” as in one of a kind, and lean toward the idea they may all be connected in a unique way.
            And if I’m right?!? Then we need to know that, in order to understand how to interpret all the clues to one location… Without later clues deciphered properly… we may never “know” the correct location of what wwwh refers to ‘completely.’
            Which to this point in time seems to be the major problem, imo. Not some wrong turn, some unknown distance, or what type of vehicle we may need to search with.

            Yet, we may get lucky to hit the correct location by a good guess… but it won’t help much if the other clue’s references are not known of, beforehand.

            ~Regardless of anyone’s theory~ “nearly all” are North.. must include… some that are South as well.

          • Chomp! I’ll bite…
            For the record, I agree that there must be at least one example of a potential wwh south of Santa Fe. I think that should be a no brainer in aiding figuring out what a wwh might be.
            If a searcher disregards that or does not take that into consideration…it could spell disaster for that particular idea/solve.
            If a searcher has pinpointed a potential wwh(in their interp. of) and has proceeded further into a potential solve…so in this case distances, terrain, walk/drive, wrong turns by potential previous searchers would ultimately be some items to consider.
            Not so much if potential searcher is stuck on wwh.

          • Seeker and ken: maybe I wasn’t being clear enough in explaining the fault in Seeker’s logic. Let me give an example. For argument’s sake, let’s say that Forrest’s WWWH happens to be some run-of-the-mill warm spring in Wyoming. In this case, you could certainly make the claim that since this WWWH is a warm spring, and there are thousands in the U.S., not all of which are north of Santa Fe, due to Santa Fe’s geographic location MOST of those warm springs are north of Santa Fe. No conflict with the ATF comment.

            But what if instead, Forrest’s WWWH is a geyser? Are you claiming that this ATF comment by Forrest eliminates that as a possibility since there are no geysers south of Santa Fe? THAT was the point I was trying to make: that you cannot eliminate a WWWH candidate just because no similar feature can be found south of Santa Fe.

            When Forrest made that ATF remark, he wasn’t referring specifically to HIS WWWH — he was referring to the whole ensemble of possibilities that searchers could reasonably interpret WWWH to be.

          • Agreed, discounting a WWWH location because there isn’t the same example of it south of Santa Fe is foolish. He was talking about all of the possible WWWH exam

          • Zap;

            Yoy say, “But what if instead, Forrest’s WWWH is a geyser? Are you claiming that this ATF comment by Forrest eliminates that as a possibility since there are no geysers south of Santa Fe?”

            The answer is YES, geysers must be eliminated as possible wwwh because, to the best of my knowledge, there are none south of Santa Fe. Just my considered opinion – you obviously differ, and that is OK – JDA

          • Hi JDA: actually, you can safely put geysers back in the “possible” category — even based on your reading of Forrest’s statement. That’s because there are a great many geysers south of Santa Fe. They just aren’t in the U.S. If our Curious Hobbit were still here, he could tell us all about them!

          • Zap, ~’When Forrest made that ATF remark, he wasn’t referring specifically to HIS WWWH — he was referring to the whole ensemble of possibilities that searchers could reasonably interpret WWWH to be.’

            If you noticed, I put that possibility into play as well.
            It still doesn’t allow all the ideas North of SF to be possible if there is no similar reference South of SF. It actually eliminates those more unique ideas.

            Example; I don’t think ISA lake in conjunction with two river pass can be an option because one starts on the east and drains opposite to the west and visa-versa. It’s the only place in the world this naturally occurs. [other than Panama, man-made alteration and possible CO with a man made redirection of the Colorado river].
            Another popular place, for wwh, is the Triple Divide where the water splits in three direction of the watershed… west, east, and north. There is no way these ideas can mean “nearly all” of anything for wwh { politically correct… imo }

            Your explanation that fenn ‘only’ meant “his” answer… “[he wasn’t referring specifically to HIS WWWH, idea]”… as you claim, is force fitting 101, because you like your wwwh too much.
            What needs answering is; why would fenn say “nearly all” if that is not exactly what he meant … with ‘either’ possibility.

            I’ll add; fenn answered the question using the wording; There are many ***places*** in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt,…
            Again, [ in either scenario ] fenn was referring to “places” of ‘locations’ and not so much ‘his specific anything’ IN the RM’s

            That kinda eliminates the possibility he meant [ for example ] Mexico, gulf of Mexico or farther south, as well, for any idea of “nearly all.”

            End of commentary….

          • Zap…I have to say respectfully that you have bitten off more than you can possibly chew with this one.
            READ Phil’s Q…then read Fenn’s reply. It is Fenn that takes his answer into the realm of his poem…and then says in the Rocky Mountains. Are you suggesting that the Rocky mountains are in New Zealand now? Or in Mexico? Or that Fenn was just inferring another type of wwh other than his? Why ?

          • Well, Seeker, at least Aaron agrees with my logic. And I think if anyone is force-fitting anything, it’s you. Both you and JDA are requiring Forrest’s specific WWWH to have an analog that can be found somewhere in the Rockies south of Santa Fe, and as such you have specifically eliminated some candidate solutions because of their uniqueness. That is extremely restrictive, and in my opinion application of that logic could very well eliminate Forrest’s actual WWWH from consideration.

            You realize what a tiny fraction of the Rocky Mountains lies south of Santa Fe? If your interpretation were correct, then it would be the biggest clue in the Chase: just search for WWWH’s that share something in common with a WWWH within the tiny <400 square miles of the Rockies that are south of Santa Fe's latitude.

          • Apologies, ken — I neglected that Forrest did restrict the scope of his answer to the Rockies. I was trying to be humorous/helpful by “allowing” those New Zealand geysers as a loophole for JDA.

            So to reiterate: JDA and Seeker claim Forrest’s WWWH cannot be a geyser because it is a fact that there isn’t a single geyser in the Rocky Mountains south of Santa Fe’s latitude. While I’m not claiming Forrest’s WWWH is a geyser, I think it would be absolutely idiotic to exclude a geyser as a potential solution solely based on this ATF statement. Frankly I’m shocked that Seeker in particular would subscribe to this faulty logic, given how loathe he usually is to eliminate any idea from consideration. I like to imagine his kitchen walls consisting more of spaghetti than paint. 😉

          • I have no idea where this may fall, but if you Google geysers of New Mexico, there is one in Las Vegas, on the edge of the Pecos Wilderness, very southern end of RMs. FWIW.

          • Zap;

            For someone who, most of the time, uses logic to propose or offer a counter argument to someone’s ideas, you seem to have cast logic to the winds on this one, and instead are spewing terms like idiotic (not a very forceful argument) around. tch tch.

            The original quote is rather simple: “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.”

            To me this says that, of the many places where wwh – most, but not all – are north of Santa Fe. This implies to me that the wwwh that Forrest refers to can be found both north and south of Santa Fe. Do we agree on this point?

            If, as you propose, a geyser can not be found “In the Rocky Mountains” south of Santa Fe, geysers MUST be eliminated from consideration – To me this is logical. How do you see it as idiotic? What is YOUR logic?

            He defines the place – The Rocky Mountains – both north and south of Santa Fe.

            He defines that which must be found – wwwh – within the above defined area.

            What other considerations are there within THIS statement? I just do not see any other logical considerations from within these lines. JMO – JDA

          • “Yellowstone National Park, U.S. Yellowstone is the largest geyser locale, containing thousands of hot springs, and approximately 300 to 500 geysers. It is home to half of the world’s total number of geysers in its nine geyser basins. It is located mostly in Wyoming, USA, with small portions in Montana and Idaho.”

          • JDA: sometimes I feel like this blog could use a few more Spocks to debate the finer points of logic.

            “To me this says that, of the many places where wwh – most, but not all – are north of Santa Fe. This implies to me that the wwwh that Forrest refers to can be found both north and south of Santa Fe. Do we agree on this point?”

            We agree on the first point. We do not at all agree on your implication.

            “If, as you propose, a geyser can not be found “In the Rocky Mountains” south of Santa Fe, geysers MUST be eliminated from consideration – To me this is logical. How do you see it as idiotic? What is YOUR logic?”

            What we are arguing reminds of this example of faulty logic. Rex is a carnivore. All wolves are carnivores. Therefore Rex is a wolf. Adapting that to our current case, imagine that Forrest said “There are many carnivores in the Rocky Mountains and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.” Are grizzly bears and wolves unacceptable answers because they can’t be found in the Rockies south of Santa Fe?

          • Zap;

            I do not agree, and that is OK. I see my argument as logical, you do not. You think that geysers are eligible candidates for wwwh – I do not. So be it. We can agree to disagree – JDA

          • Zap, for what it’s worth, l’m in your camp. There are different types of WWH in the Rockies. F very well may be referring only to his type of WWH as being both N and S of Santa Fe, but to assume that he is, is faulty logic.

          • Well Zap, your latest examples for argument are weak to say the least.
            You end-run the wording in the Q&A…
            You have not explained how;
            “IN” can be anything else but ‘within’ the RM’s…
            How “NEARLY” can’t mean; most…
            How either scenario of wwwh being; “fenn’s Specific” clue
            Or
            simply any references, anyone could think of for that clue’s reference;
            changes the out come of North vs. South having to have a reference of the same type in both location, Because, of how the Q&A unfolded with how it was answered.
            { a Q&A fenn ‘chose’ to make public, I might add }

            You said ~ ‘Frankly I’m shocked that Seeker in particular would subscribe to this faulty logic, given how loathe he usually is to eliminate any idea from consideration.’

            That is the whole point of attempting to utilize 8 years of ATF’s… Not to come up with faulty logic so we don’t end up on a wild goose chase?
            If ya don’t dissect your own thoughts about what is or is not a good possibility vs. a lost cause… LOL then you fit right into, having a nice vacation.

          • Seeker, as with so many of our debates, if we can’t agree on even simple rules of logic, then the conversation serves no purpose. I mean, you won’t even accept the logical possibility that 300 feet is “less than a few miles,” apparently in large part because Forrest wrote miles in the plural.

          • Thanks, JBL. I was really beginning to wonder if I had been transported to the bizarro universe.

          • Zap ‘ I mean, you won’t even accept the logical possibility that 300 feet is “less than a few miles,”

            How can you say such a broad statements without context of what the entire Q&A was about.
            While I place ” ” around words for emphasis in a post… those words are to draw attention to the reasoning behind the logic. Your Logic only stops at the “less than” ~ to mean less than anything.
            But when you add a deliberate distances to give a context, such as “few” and “miles” or “IN” the RM’s and “Nearly All”… you now have some context to the answer.

            When you say; ‘… I mean, you won’t even accept the logical possibility that 300 feet is “less than a few miles,”
            There is no reasonable logic, no logical possibility, no logic at all, that can dismiss “few miles” within the context of the entire Q&A?
            And your doing the same for “Nearly” and “IN” without context of the entire Q&A.

            So, yep.. IF you have a solve that has wwwh as a geyser, and going by your statement, there are none south of SF, within the RM’s range… the logical conclusion is… no geyser for wwh.

            “Few” **must be** “one” or greater [ it can not be less than one,] and “miles” is used as an indicator for distance… you can not be less than a single mile. The addition of the word “few” and plural of miles combined, can not allow that to be so.

            I think it was charlie that gave the example of 5 apples. { i’ll change it up a bit } IF you take away a few apples, sure you have less than five… but, you still a few apple[s] regardless if you took one, two or even four apple[s] away… you can not have less than a single apple, because of the use of apple in plural context, and few meaning one or more.
            That is the only “Logical” outcome.

          • Oh my Seeker! You are arguing black is white. What is happening to the logical minds of chasers? I just read some other yahoo out there claiming that the first clue is in stanza one even though FF verified it is in the second stanza?

            I am now fully appreciating the FF’s statement about a deep thinker’s use logic. When people start arguing against basic logic they have gone over the deep end. Time to step back and THINK!

          • Oh boy, Zap makes a good point. FF didn’t qualify that it was his specific type of WWH that is mostly North of Santa Fe. He just said there are places where WWH and most are of North of Santa Fe (paraphrasing). He could have been talking about all types of WWH. I feel like I’m playing ping pong!

          • Seeker, Zap

            I’ve been reading this very long thread arguing about “few & nearly. It seems very counter productive and neither of you are going no where.

            Here’s the logic, how about giving this very long debate that is going nowhere an end?

            Sure its none of my business, but it truly sound like young boys going back and forth one says it is and the other says its not, I think both of you should be put in a corner or sent to bed without supper.

            Really ??

          • Once again, just my 2 cents worth – If F was trying to give a maximum walking distance in order to keep people safe, he would say less than a few miles. That’s only an upper limit imo, not a minimum of 1 mile.

          • Zap;

            Let me take one more slice at this apple:

            Supposition: We are going hunting for a bear that can be found both in Canada, and in the lower 48 states.

            Fact #1: Polar bears are only found in Canada – They are NOT found in the lower 48 states (except in zoo’s and these do not count.)

            Fact #2: Grizzly bears are found in both Canada and in the Lower 48 States.

            Conclusion: we are hunting for Grizzly Bears since they are found in both Canada and The lower 48 states. We can NOT be hunting for a Polar bear, since none are found in the Lower 48 states…

            Using the same logis as stated above –

            Supposition: We are hunting for a wwwh that can be found north of Santa Fe and south of Santa Fe.

            Fact #1. Geysers are found only north of Santa Fe.

            Fact #2 – (Example) Places where two streams converge are found both North and south of Santa Fe.

            Conclusion: We can not be looking for a geyser, since geysers are found only north of Santa Fe.

            We COULD be looking for a place where two streams converge, since that occurs both north and south of Santa Fe.

            The logic is identical in both cases – don’t you agree?

            Clearer now? What I propose IS logical – What you propose is NOT. Just my logical mind at work – JDA

          • JDA, I believe there is a hole in our bear example…..

            you stated:

            Supposition: We are going hunting for a bear that can be found both in Canada, and in the lower 48 states.

            Conclusion: we are hunting for Grizzly Bears since they are found in both Canada and The lower 48 states. We can NOT be hunting for a Polar bear, since none are found in the Lower 48 states…

            ***You can rule out polar bears. But you cannot state you are hunting for griz, based on the information you presented.

            There are also black bear in Canada and the lower 48…..and some of them live south of Santa Fe!!! 🙂

            Same thing applies with Fenn
            s comment…..he didn’t give enough information to allow one to confidently state that he was talking about the WWWH in the Poem, or if he was speaking of all possible manners that WWWH could represent.

            Geeez, you guys argee bout some of the dangedest things?? 🙂

          • As we know there’s are many examples of warm waters halting. Forrest knows this or he would not have used it in his poem. It seems logical to me that also knew by answering the her question the way he did that he would not be giving to much away by answering it the way he did. Sure we do not know for certain based on his answer but we know how FF answers questions do we not? There is no way he would leave geysers or other potential spots out of the running for the most important clue.

          • Aaron,
            I get what you’re saying, but like Zap, you seem to forget the entire Q&A and strictly read into your hopeful possibilities, that are simply not there.

            fenn started is answering in reply to the question; “A~ There are a few words ***in the poem*** that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil,…”

            It’s more than obvious fenn is answering the question related to the wwwh ***in the poem***.
            This type of debate / discussions has happen with many Q&A’s and comments.
            One was; fenn using the words “other” or “people” as well as “seekers” and “searchers” etc. in answer[s] about the first two clues solvers… some [bloggers] would like to think those terms are to mean ‘tourist’… even when a comment from fenn can show he is taking about searchers.
            Example; “… I mean, “people” figured the first couple of clue and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”
            A tourist is is not looking for clues, they have no need to “figure” anything out.
            There no doubt, or any other logical assumption, that fenn is not talking about searchers.
            The same goes for this Q&A… fenn is answering the question related to wwwh “IN the poem”

            Yet, in either scenario, fenn specific type of wwwh, or what the bloggers ideas of wwwh could be… “nearly all” can not mean “only” N of SF.

            That’s the last comment for me on this topic… I can’t add any more help than what has already been talked about.

          • To adhere to the basics of true logic by not fully examining the subject at hand…would be tantamount to assuming whatever suits individual needs or ideas.
            Fenn chose to answer a presented question in regards to wwwh north of Santa Fe and referencing his poem.
            Stepping outside of his poem and his implied meaning in his poem to interpret his answer would be more risky than anything.

          • CharlieM and I’m sure others are sick of this topic, and I already conceded that further debate with Seeker would be fruitless since we do not speak the same language. I will close out my contribution to this whole illogical affair by asking a question that has specific relevance to many searcher’s solutions.

            To my knowledge, in the Rocky Mountains south of Santa Fe, there are no examples of two (or more) geothermally warmed creeks, rivers or streams that converge into one. Does that mean that Madison Junction cannot be the correct answer to where warm waters halt?

          • Hey Zap! That’s fine if you and Charlie M want to take your little plastic Army men and stomp off because others don’t agree with your “opinion”.
            Just remember the end of search season comes along faster than everyone wants to recall….
            Without all of *the facts*…it is ALL speculation at best…without regard to which searcher says it.

          • Ken: I thought I was being logical about the whole affair, and I tried to supply some relevant examples with which others could navigate that logic. I’m not going to have a temper tantrum just because another searcher disagrees with me.

          • That’s fine Zap…ALL (most all) opinions count or are fair game when all of the facts are absent.
            You tossed a lot of snarky statements out there while offering your “logical” opinion about how to interpret Fenn’s answer to Phil’s Question(s)…as if yours was the only view that mattered.
            Personally…I don’t think you or Charlie M exactly have the market cornered on finding Fenn’s treasure. Until it is found…it is everyone’s game. Happy hunting…

          • ken – I agree that I could have been more diplomatic in some of my posts. My sarcasm gene kicks in when confronted with responses that baffle me. JDA took the higher road, for instance, and recognized quickly that our respective viewpoints were cemented and irreversible, and simply accepted that. I should have done likewise. It’s just that sometimes I like to better understand why people believe what they believe, and use test cases to dissect their underlying thought processes — thus the examples of geysers and Madison Junction. And in that latter case, I take it you believe anyone who uses Madison Junction as their WWWH is running afoul of Forrest’s answer to Phil? I’m not judging — I’m just trying to confirm that that is the logical assessment of a searcher who believes that Forrest was specifying the nature of *his* WWWH in his answer.

          • Ken,

            I don’t know how you can say I haven’t cornered the area of where the TC is at.
            That is your incorrect assumption. Also I hope that you don’t have it in your mind that its impossible to know where the TC is unless I have the TC.
            It is very possible to occur.

            Just saying

          • Actually Zap…Neither position/side of the above debate has any bearing on my location of wwh. I just see both sides of it/the issue… as holding a certain amount of credibility, without fully knowing the full intentions of Fenn’s answer, for certain. But, that is just the nature of the beast.

          • Well CharlieM…I truly do wish you the best. One thing you will never hear from me on here is an arrogant statement about how sure of anything I am…
            Maybe a poke or two at the fact pushers…but nothing more.
            I did that once in the very beginning…and have regretted it since. Good Day…

          • Ken,

            There you go again saying that I am arrogant. I am never arrogant, just truthful. It still remains that you won’t believe that that someone has very well found the location of the TC. I guess and only guess that you haven’t figured out the poem.

            Prejudging anyone to me is arrogant.
            Yes, doing that is not knowing the person. I will defend my solution to the hilt because I have complete faith in it.

            I don’t understand why some can’t accept that someone that has complete faith in knowing the answers, but insist in chiding someone that says they have.

            I say more power to them, instead of shooting them down and trying make someone doubt their solution.

            It’s not my place to do that, nor is it anyone else place to do that.

            End of discussion. Have a nice day and a good hunt.

            IMHO

      • For me, what one might find as a blaze and be important, another might not, but to be mindful of what the other might think. Who knows, the other might be correct. If you think there is a possibility, throw it into you bucket for consideration when you search the general area.
        If one could make a case say for example, a squatter blaze (symbol), and you might agree, throw that into your bucket for consideration. For me, I would be mindful, but maybe not put that into my bucket.
        My point, searching an area, requires lots of time and energy, it should be fun. It would be a shame to walk by or discount a possible blaze, that just might be the correct one. Your search is your story and hopefully your story will have a happy ending.
        With regards to the Warm Waters Halt location, the halt location should be north of Santa Fe. Don’t recall discussion on the Warm Waters location. If Forrest has said the Warm Waters location was north of Santa Fe, you would be right.
        I would hope everyone will keep sharing.
        Regards
        Doug

      • ” There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, ***and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.*** Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts.” f

        The “nearly all” is a true statement, There are plenty of places across the US north of SF where wwh. Just stick to the RMs

    • Doug,

      What a beautiful ode to “The Thrill of the Chase!”

      Great read.

      In the summer of 2005, my young family and I had the pleasure of driving and camping along Hwy 149, up and over the continental divide. We even took a trip into Creede for the day and did some white water rafting down the Rio Grande.

      Peculiar enough we also took a small detour from our main trip to visit Brown Lakes and then on to Hermit Resv.

      The San Luis Valley is a very, very, special place in the United States; it contains the head waters of the Rio Grande, main natural hot springs and the Great Sand Dunes National Park (of Ansel Adams fame) – only to name a few of its unique geographical features.

      Besides its amazing geographical features, this part of are country is steeped in deep history & clandestine mystery; thanks so much for bringing to everyone in the Chase’s attention!

      GCG

      • Thanks for your comments, twenty pages might be too much, but could have prepared 50 pages if I had included all of my bucket items to search for in the area I used in my example.
        The Rocky Mountains are a gift, the headwaters of the Rio Grande a special gift.

        Regards,
        Doug

  42. Seeker, I answered your questions about the blaze, giving you information that I have researched. If it didn’t matter why did you ask?
    Thanks for giving me permission to rattle on….much appreciated.
    dean

  43. Lugnutz, give me your e-mail address, and I will send you, your answer
    that you asked. I will also give you the third clue so you can see the blaze.
    Anthony

    • Lugnutz,
      you have enough people sending you clues……I’m surprised you haven’t found the TC. Should I just mail you a map with a large red X on it. lm@o
      dean

      • Hi Dean –

        Not only do pole from this site send me emails, crazy people I don’t know send me emails when they find out I am in the hunt.

        I will tell you that I have never, not once, read anything they made me go, OK, this chaser is really onto something. Not once. Most of the time people have idea that have been addressed previously. Blaze Mountain, Brown Mountain, Ojo Caliente, Dunn Bridge.

        Some people that email me don’t say where they are looking. They try to explain why they are looking somewhere without giving it away.

        I would love to hear something that makes me a believer. Maybe Anthony has something. Maybe his Clue 3 works with something I have. Collaborative works better than solo in my opinion.

        Since you made me think of it I want to say publicly again that Dunn does not mean brown.

        Lugnutz

        • Hi Lugnutz,
          I’m still not sure why people are sending you solve information. Are you some kind of celebrity or something?
          I mean you sound like you don’t believe that a treasure chest exists. JMO Are people helping you because you don’t have the ability to process this on you own. I’m just asking, no offense, but I seem to be missing something about you and you have my apologies if you have a disability of some sort. Well, I hope Anthony can help you out. You seem like an okay person.
          Also, I have to ask, because I have no idea what you meant when you said,
          “Since you made me think of it I want to say publicly again that Dunn does not mean brown.”
          All I can say to that is for me Brown means Brown. I have no clue what Dunn means or why you said that. Maybe you have me mixed up with someone else.
          And, I will say I agree with you that a group effort is better than going in there alone.
          That is why I am surprised that some of the searchers on here are so quick to attack someone else for simply posting their version of the solve. That is a not a good method of gaining collaborative works. IMHO
          dean

          • Dean;

            I have only been at this for about 28 months, and have seen maybe two attempts at getting some collaboration going – did not work.

            I for one, do not think that it can work – too many divergent views.

            I search Wyoming, if the group majority said Colorado, would I give up Wyoming? – NOPE!!! Never. Good luck to Ya’ if you can get something going. JMHO – JDA

          • Thanks JDA, You seem well grounded and intelligent with a willingness to assist others. I feel it should go both ways. We all can give a little, even if it is repetitive or has been tried before.
            The way I see it, we are all in the same boat. no one has found the TC and just because someone didn’t find it along the Madison, doesn’t mean it is not there. That was just an example btw, but I have walked the Madison, with my fly rod of coarse; what a beautiful location. lol
            I like a few places in Wyoming as well. I plan to be in West Yellowstone (WY) and Wyoming (WY) in June. Maybe we will have the opportunity to talk, if you are at the group Cynthia is organizing. I’m happy to share my idea/solves. I’ve been throwing some basic stuff out on here, but will bring my detailed information when I drive out in June.
            I’m still hopeful for a group/team search. I know brainstorming works and trying to cover a search with one or two people just is not practical, nor is it a safe event. I say lets work at this smarter not harder….JMHO
            dean

          • JDA makes a good point. There are different views which keep people from agreeing. Heck, even when people announce their solves here people do not agree because of their own biases.

            I believe a collaborative effort is the best chance at solving this but it would take either being in the same room or chatting together online. Back and forth post are not that effective in a brainstorming session.

          • Dean;

            Well I try to help when I can. without giving away the store. I plan to be at both Fennboree and the Function at the Junction – Maybe we will cross paths – JDA

          • Dean –

            I don’t know why people email me. I think they want feedback and they are hoping for agreement.

            I have a bunch of solves. Finding steadfastly believe in one. I keep an open mind. I don’t what your are.lookjng for interns of sharing but let me know. I believe in openly sharing. Many that being share are delusional.

            Ask me about any solves or areas.

            Lugnutz

          • Lugnutz, Sounds good and thanks for the reply. I have a better understanding of where you are coming from now. I haven’t ruled anything out as of yet. I’ve been to all four states, but my gut remains in Wyoming and Montana. Mainly because that’s where nearly every thing f talks about as great memories. However, I have to believe that he has special places in New Mexico because from the time he settled there as businessman in the 70’s through the trials of cancer and then finally the poem was written, that has to be at least be a consideration. My solve there goes to Taos and one other location more than 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe. lol On the other hand, the New Mexico consideration doesn’t have much worth due to f spending so much time running a business, looking after employees, becoming a millionaire and hanging with celebrities…..It seems he has would have shared the same stories of his childhood memories and special/secret places with those folks as well. So, it comes down to this as far as the location of the TC goes. IMO
            When he was spending time in West Yellowstone, we know he has many special stories of Montana/Wyoming. I don’t recall much about Colorado, except for a few books such as JOAT, FW and some Radom comments from others about Browns Hole, Green River, etc.., etc..New Mexico, as I said before, no warm and fuzzy…..except for flying Olga’s ashes toward the mountain top. I really think f was trying to tell us that she would not want her remains to be on top of a lonely mountain, when there was so much more beauty and life just below. This tells us, imo, that his special place is not on a mountain top, but instead, below in a basin or similar place with trees, animals, views and smells that go with the turf. This is kind of how I form my basis for my solve.
            Lugnutz, I know that you already know these things, but for me it brings back the reality of the why/where f hid the TC in a special/secret place for his bones to finally rest. “He has done tired and now he is weak.”
            dean
            dean

          • No need for a collaborative effort Aaron to find the TC imo. I believe it’s close to being solved given ff’s statement that he has a gut feeling it will be found this summer.

          • You may be right morecowbell, but if you’re not then lets address this again after summer 🙂

          • JDA and Aaron,
            I get the fact that it is hopeless to try something on here with postings. I truly believe that disagreements that others have with each other while posting is not so much that one can’t agree with another on individual solves. But, more of fact checking or fishing, if you will.
            Consider this, Let’s say I just started this venture last week and started reading as much as I could about this TC hunt. What could I possibly do to increase my chances of being a real contender.
            I could always hope someone would feel sorry for me a start giving me information.
            I could start sharing responses that I have read elsewhere as solves and “fish” for additional information.
            Ask pinpointed questions, hoping for locations to clues.
            I know you both are wise to the strategies of others, as am I. Don’t sell the store; I like that JDA.
            If someone is talking to you like there is no need to try this or that because the chase is most likely over, that’s BS, IMHO. It’s not over until it’s over, it may be this year, or ten years from now…..even longer.
            This is no time to throw in the towel and I certainly WILL NOT listen to any of the naysayers….and trust me they are on here and reading what I am saying guaranteed! Talk is cheap.
            Action speaks in volumes!!
            JDA and Aaron, I will be at West Yellowstone gathering with my resources and solves the weekend in June, which is the same weekend as Fennboree 2018. I would also like to ttend both.
            I have read many books, many times and have measured, plotted and marked my locations in precise details. I have shared information on here, that may seem like too much information. But I’m sure you both realize the size of indulgence is much smaller than a needle in a haystack!! More detailed information concerning hints and clues are needed to go with confidence to a precise location.
            JDA, I would love to go to the Fennboree as well. I’ll will be driving from Florida, just south of Tampa in early June. I will try to swing both meetings if possible. I still have time to plan, if either of you are interested in talking. I am happy to meet with either or both.
            Best of luck to you both!
            dean

          • That should make for a nice drive Dean.

            I am up for meeting and discussing as long as some agreements are made in advance. I don’t know that I will make it to the meeting in W. Yellowstone in late June but I will be there the beginning the first week of July for 9 days.

          • Hi Dean;

            You have a nice drive ahead of you. I would be delighted to meet you. As far as sharing info – I share, here on the blog, all that I am willing to share.

            I know that I am going to get chided for what I am about to say, and that is OK. I honestly feel that I will find Indulgence just before Fennboree, and I hope to show proof of my find at Fennboree. The key word is HOPE. I HOPE to find Indulgence in May—But odds are, I won’t, but at least I can HOPE. – JDA

    • Hi Anthony –

      This is exciting, I love hearing new ideas. You may have something about Clue 3 that I haven’t thought of or read before!

      Please ask Dal for my email address.
      This way I do not have to show it publicly.

      Is that cool?

      Lugnutz

  44. There was a young lady who made an attempt to fly around the world. But, before that she went to an area in Wyoming near Meeteese.
    This young lady wanted to head toward Brown Mountain and an old Gold mining town by the name of Kirwin. There was a body of warm water just past Meeteese, actually two, Lower and Upper Sunshine Reservoir. They were named this because the water is always warm. You might even say it’s where warm water halts.
    This young lady continued her journey down this canyon heading south passing where the warm waters halt. She took her journey in the canyon down, but it was too far to walk. As she continued her journey, she was accompanied by one of the locals, who knew the area very well. After a short distance the local turned left onto Wood River Road, which is not the best of roads, but follows the Wood River down the canyon. Before long they passed the Wood River and Brown Mountain Campgrounds. This is around 22.5 and 25 miles approximately and respectively. They continued travelling south and the road became a little rougher. Continuing on there were three areas to cross the Wood, river that is, but more like a stream. These crossing are approximately at the 26.5 to 30 mile marks, anyone attempting this should use extreme caution, regardless of how safe it may seem by looks. Eventually, they were below Brown Mountain, yes the good old home of Brown. They decided to stop here and get out for a stretch break. The young lady took her shoes off and decided to put her feet in the Wood, river that is, which she thought was worth the cold, as it was refreshing. Now, the young lady with her feet in the wood, which was worth the cold and below the home of Brown decided she like this area so much she thought it would be wise to make a place of her own there. So, she asked the local to blaze a trail and build her a cabin. The agreement was made and the cabin was under construction. The young lady took off to fly around the world and to be the first women to do so.
    She never returned, as the sad ending goes, but she never lost sight of her dreams. I think today women are stronger, more courageous and have proven themselves to be equal because of this young lady, Amelia Earhart.
    dean

  45. From searching definitions and synonyms of ALL the words in the poem, I ended up creating a mental image of him.

    In my view it is not point to point.

    It is the description of a large place that is getting small according to the clues.

    Type: Planet Earth, Continent, Country, State, County, Village, Neighborhood, Street, Number

    J I M H O

    • Marcelo Calestini de Apucarana – Paraná – Brasil …

      I thought that for a long time. I like the concept a lot, and even invited time to the party.
      But I can’t wiggle around many comments fenn as given over the years. Such as;
      “… people figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure” and other posted above on this thread in the last couple days imply the same.
      And fenn saying, he followed the clues ‘when he hid the chest’

      How large of a place are you thinking is being described that would still make those many comments truthful within logical reasoning?

  46. Forrest has not said if people had identified any of the the other seven clues and passed by the treasure. Yes, many people have identified the first two clues and passed within two hundred feet of the treasure. They were not aware of how close they were.

    • Any searcher who has, by following their solve of the poem, gotten within 500 feet of the TC, has correctly solved more than 2 clues. How many times do you want me to repeat this?

      Solving the first clue correctly is likely to indicate a
      location that is within about 75 miles of the TC, even
      though merely solving the first clue correctly isn’t
      something that can be verified without finding the TC
      or being informed about a correct solve. By the way,
      have you used a dictionary to look up “halt”? If you
      haven’t, you may as well stay home and play canasta.

      Solving the second clue correctly is likely to indicate a
      location that is within about 50 miles of the TC.

      Solving the third clue correctly is likely to indicate a
      location that is within about 15 miles of the TC.

      Solving for hoB does NOT guarantee that the solver
      will be able to “go right to the chest”. Please take all
      info (except the poem) about this hunt with a grain of
      salt.

      The above is my opinion.

      • Sorry Guy – for me all of your distances are about three or four timed too long. Good luck to Ya’ anyway. All my clues fit within 25 miles – ALL – JDA

        • Mine fit within a mile. To each their own opinion, and this is mine. Viva la difference – best wishes to all !

          • From clue 1 to clue 2 seems “about 10 miles”, since that is what FF called “too far to walk” in the intro section of TFTW (the book). Clue 1 and clue 2 are the only clues that can be seen from space (the “girl in India” quote) — so that means that clues 3-9 can only be seen with BotG. That means the visual cues are small, and probably seen while walking (especially the blaze — hence the “stay home and play Canasta” quote). The “many people have been within 500 feet of TC, and a few people have been within 200 feet” quotes seem to indicate that clues 3-9 cover a distance of only 500 feet (with the assumption that clue 3 has to do with parking your car, so lots of people have driven past on a road — that’s the only way he could have made that assertion). From the blaze to TC is “less than 12 feet” (there was a quote about that that I can’t exactly remember right now). All this to me indicates that the distance between each subsequent clue gets exponentially shorter.

            FF has said repeatedly that there’s no point even searching if you haven’t solved clue 1 and 2. They are the only ones you can solve before you leave home.

          • Hi OTC:

            “From clue 1 to clue 2 seems “about 10 miles”, since that is what FF called “too far to walk” in the intro section of TFTW (the book).”

            Dangerous assumption since there was no guarantee when the poem came out that a TFTW book would ever come to be.

            “Clue 1 and clue 2 are the only clues that can be seen from space (the “girl in India” quote) — so that means that clues 3-9 can only be seen with BotG.”

            Afraid that’s speculation, and not well supported by Forrest’s quotes. Spotting clues “from space” is not at all the same thing as spotting them on a map. (Side note: how often have you heard that the Great Wall of China is visible from space? Urban myth.) I firmly believe that WWWH is quite undetectable from space, but no problem at all on a map of the Rockies.

            Saying that clues 3-9 require BOTG just because little Miss Indy can’t solve them is also a leap of faith. Square that with this quote May 2015 interview Q&A:

            “How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Another way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?)”

            Fenn’s reply: “All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.”

            How can a searcher possibly solve all of the clues from home *in theory* if it requires physical presence to even visibly spot clues 3-9? Answer? It’s not possible. Therefore, much more than the first 2 clues are solvable from home.

          • “All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.”

            I find this ambiguous quote hard to really make heads or tails of. If he would have left the “in theory” part out of it then it would be easier. A theory doesn’t make it possible and is only meant to be proven right or wrong.

          • Zap;

            You say, “Dangerous assumption since there was no guarantee when the poem came out that a TFTW book would ever come to be.”

            It doesn’t make any difference whether the book came out or not. If the distance is about 10 miles, it is about 10 miles.

            I believe that the book came out with the statement in the preface because people were going WAY too far, and Forrest decided to rein them in – thus the statement in the preface. The distance did not change just because it was stated in the book. JMHO – JDA

          • Hi JDA,

            “It doesn’t make any difference whether the book came out or not. If the distance is about 10 miles, it is about 10 miles.”

            Sure, but we wouldn’t be having this discussion at all if TFTW hadn’t been published, because that 10-mile distance is never mentioned anywhere else.

            “I believe that the book came out with the statement in the preface because people were going WAY too far, and Forrest decided to rein them in – thus the statement in the preface.”

            Now THAT could very well be, JDA. But as you know Forrest makes many very similar time/distance statements, and with the exception of constraining the chest’s altitude on both ends, he never does so with travel time or distance. He always states a maximum, with no bound on the minimum. In my opinion, he is doing the same with 10 miles: he’s not going to give away the exact distance that is too far to walk — that would be too big a clue, and would run counter to the spirit of solving the poem. I think his motivation is one of safety for searchers, not hitting us over the head with a clue.

          • Agree Zap. Fenn has said he hasn’t Provided the answer to any clue in TToTC. So why provide it in too far to walk?

            The spirit of this chase is to solve the poem and. It to look up the answer. IMO

          • Sorry last sentence should read “the spirit of the chase is to solve the poem and NOT look up the answer. “

        • JDA, I think you are really on to something, and I agree 100%. We may have some of the same ideas. I can wait until a later time to discuss though. JMHO
          dean

          • The BOTG field survey is very effective.

            But there are other ways of searching online.

            For example, the GE does not have enough resolution to see the riverbed.

            Then you search the river on the internet and study through descriptions made by other people.

            Geographical, geological, cartographic and video data.

            And for those who do not remember we have Street View.

            We have the 360 images.

            And we still have tips from Forrest.

            If Forrest says smell of pine, trees, it makes no sense to look in desert places, without vegetation.

            All this produces information and knowledge.

            I think a lot of people are having trouble processing this information.

      • What if WWH is not visible until late summer?
        Could that be why only so few got the right starting point ?
        After all, ff said TC could be found this summer.

        What if searchers’ preconceived biases as to size, essence, distance, orientation, etc., made them not recognize the HOB?

        Could the elusive Blaze “stand out” only at a certain time of a clear day?

        • @ Zap — You have referenced the Little Girl from India quote and seem to have concluded/assumed that it somehow means that only clues 1 and 2 can be seen from space. The quote (paraphrased) is that she can’t get “…closer than the first two clues” so I have to ask how you came to that seen from space conclusion?

        • Greetings Bowmarc: “You have referenced the Little Girl from India quote and seem to have concluded/assumed that it somehow means that only clues 1 and 2 can be seen from space.”

          No — you must have me confused with someone else. As far as I’m concerned, none of the clues are visible from space.

          “The quote (paraphrased) is that she can’t get “…closer than the first two clues””

          For the benefit of any newbies, I’ll post the entire MW Q&A exchange:

          “Your treasure hunt has inspired people worldwide to discover history, culture and nature, but many people, (even in the US) might be deterred because they don’t live near the Rockies or can’t afford to travel. Should they be deterred? Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?”

          Fenn’s answer: “I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.”

          I implore people to pay close attention to Jenny’s question. She specified the map. How would you answer “truthfully” (as in “tell the truth, but not the whole truth”)?

      • For me this implies that all clues are in a single region.

        If you had to travel 75 miles to get 500 feet from the TC then you would have to find at least 7 or 8 clues and follow them. But most (think) only discovered TWO clues.

        And many pass 500 feet from the TC without knowing it.

        How would it be possible for someone (many people.f) to run tens of miles with numerous options to continue to pass so close to the TC ????

        J I M H O who is thousands of miles from TC and does not speak English.

        • If you don’t speak English, that might give you an edge in figuring out the poem.

          • I studied every word in the poem.

            Grammar of poems, where the order of words does not obey grammar.

            Etymology, nuances, synonyms.

            Popular Uses.

            In English, Portuguese, Spanish, Indian and even some things in French.

            Slang.

            Applications in geology, geography, nautical, professional fishing, local customs of each state.

            I put the poem in literal, figurative, metaphorical definition.

            I can guarantee one thing:

            MOST people even go in the right place but with scarce or limited ideas of what they can find.

        • Marcelo,

          As traduções do google são maravilhosas, mas lembre-se que Forrest escreveu isso para ser um enigma ou quebra-cabeça a ser resolvido em inglês. Eu tentei traduzir para o espanhol, já que eu também sou um falante de espanhol, mas rapidamente descobri o erro que ele cria. Leia o máximo que puder a partir das páginas de informação deste site, há muita coisa lá. Outro site http://www.tarryscant.com tem todos os comentários de Forrest atualizados em um formato pesquisável com suas fontes. Eu moro na Flórida, muitos brasileiros aqui. Sempre que você estiver pronto para viajar para as montanhas rochosas, talvez possamos unir forças. Agora, para descobrir onde as águas quentes param.

      • Hi Tighter: I’ll chime in on your prognostications.

        “Any searcher who has, by following their solve of the poem, gotten within 500 feet of the TC, has correctly solved more than 2 clues.”

        I partially disagree. Solving 2 clues (which as far as I’m concerned is essentially the same as solving 1) is adequate. You don’t need to solve more than two to get this close. 99% of the people that come within 500 feet of the chest EVERY day are not searchers, at least by my estimation.

        “Solving the first clue correctly is likely to indicate a
        location that is within about 75 miles of the TC…”

        Hah! You’re not really going out on a limb there, are you?! I’ll see your 75 miles and drop it to less than 10.

        “By the way, have you used a dictionary to look up “halt”? If you haven’t, you may as well stay home and play canasta.”

        I haven’t, I won’t, and as far as I’m concerned dictionary definitions of “halt” (beyond simple, general English knowledge) will offer ZERO help to the would-be searcher. Dictionaries are completely irrelevant to, and unnecessary for, solving Forrest’s clues. Yes, JDA, I know you strongly disagree with me on this point, but that requires a rather restrictive reading on the only statement Forrest has made relevant to this point. I’ll post it if people are unaware of it.

        The rest of your predictions, Tighter, increasingly diverge from what I expect reality to be, so I’ll stop the analysis here.

  47. Robotic Voice: “Oh for cry-ing out loud. There is just one Fenn trea-sure in the Uni-verse. Why in blue blaze-es do you not go and re-trieve it? If you know the lo-ca-tion of the trea-sure chest it is only logi-cal that you would immed-iate-ly drive to that place and claim the prize. Even an astro-physi-cist may ask why you do not put up or shut up”.

    —The ghost of Stephen Hawking

    • The possibilities are endless even for those who have found clues 1 to 4.

      If we can not hear other ideas it’s because we know where the CT is, do not you think?

      So to shut up seems like a thing of the one who gave up THINKING and wants to only complain, waiting for others to err in order to talk: See? I talked!!

    • Lol Sparrow. The ‘poem whisperers’ know exactly what the poem says, what the clues are, where to park, how long to walk, how to find it. But it’s a tragedy that the poem doesn’t tell them ‘come and get me now and quit B$ing others on the blogs’.

      • Good call, by the wise Oz.

        For all things,
        There is a reason.
        For the harvest,
        There is a season.

        “Can’t See The Forrest for the Fenn” coming to a bookstore near you in 2020.

  48. Robotic Voice: “I was not re-ferr-ing to you my Bra-zil-ian friend. I know ma-ny things but I un-fortunate-ly do not speak Por-tu-gese. Please con-tin-ue your worth-while search. I was spea-king to those who “know” where the chest is but ul-timate-ly ne-ver come up with the goods. I have a won-der-ful re-ci-pe for cooked crow I would like to share with them. Un-fort-unate-ly I am in a wheel-chair so they will have to pre-pare it them-selves”

    —the ghost of Stephen Hawking

  49. If chasers on this board speak Portuguese that’s impressive!

    I have had a tough time speaking broken Spanish with customers in Brazil.

    Learning Portuguese is an accomplishment.

    • English grammar is a problem for me.

      For example:

      “Take”

      There are dozens of applications (depending on the context)

      In Portuguese there are dozens of different words for “take”.

      And since poems do not follow a well-defined grammatical rule, here I have hundreds of different sentences.

  50. JDA,

    A while back I shared with you (and everyone else as well) that although my solve was complete, I would not waver in my continued examination and refinement since; the greatest enemy is what you believe to be true, that just ain’t!

    Anyway, one of the reasons I continue in the refinement is because Forrest is so adamant about “certainty,” “precisely,” “delibrate[ness],” etc.

    … That it has been, my belief from the beginning, his poem offers in its clues a specificity which leads a searcher EXACTLY to the treasures final hiding spot. Additionally this makes a lot of sense from the perspective of his other adamant comments regarding the impossibility of accidental discovery, even though he has paradoxically said the person who finds it, won’t have to destroy or disrupt anything in their retrieval of the chest.

    These two factors, make it very clear, that unless a person finds themselves at the treasure location with the specific intent of discovering the treasure, then someone could be right there and not know the treasure was also there. This means the poem has to lead us so exactly, that we have complete confidence in our persistence to search the specified location, thoroughly! Otherwise you could just forget about it…

    Lastly, my precise interpretation of this was altered slightly by his comments regarding 12 feet and one searcher coming with in “striking” distance at 200 feet.

    The word striking means: attracting attention by reason of being unusual, extreme, or prominent.

    This definition strikes me a whole lot like a “blaze!” So, I refined my original idea to say; precise enough to bring a searcher close enough to the blaze, such that it was unmistakable to them. Therefore the solution from the poem had to reveal a specified spot to with in say a visible distance from something which COMPLETELY “stands out.”

    Well this brings you to my solve, its location was exact however the final spots determination by my interpretation of the poem’s clues (2 of them), was not expositionally consistent and elegant enough – for my (obsessive) liking, so I have been working the last week or so to find in those two clues, exactly how Forrest intended us to KNOW we had figured things out “correct[ly].”

    And finally I’m complete – the poem and its clues are indeed, elegant to that degree of specificity! Now the only Forrest quotes I can listen good to are:

    1) If someone new precisely where the treasure was, they could retrieve it anytime!

    2) Google Earth can not help you with the last clue!

    Very reluctantly … … Indulgence will have to wait yet for better weather. but unlike Game of Thrones, winter has been productive and its not coming, its waning!!!

    Time waits for no one.

    GCG

    • For every thing there is a reason.
      For every harvest there is a season.

      (Summer) waits for no one.

    • GCG;

      Thanks for the lengthy post. Very informative.

      It sounds like you have made great progress. How does one balance all of the ATF comments, AND interpret the poem to such a degree that they can go confidently to the site? THAT is the question.

      For me, it has not been easy. It has taken many months and many trips to my location.

      Because of ATF posts by Forrest, as well as information gleaned here on the blog, I thiMk I know exactly what to look for once I am within a certain number of feet of the TC.

      For me, the poem gets me within a certain number of feet – about 100′. The poem then points me in a particular direction, but does NOT tell me how far to go in that direction. ATF posts, “hints” in the three books, as well as information I have picked-up on here on the blogs, as I have said before, then let me know EXACTLY what to look for once I have been pointed in the right direction.

      Hope this is clear, without giving away too much

      Good luck, Stay Safe, and HAVE FUN! – JDA

    • My only thing GCG is how did you solve for clues where the info for the correct interpretation of them is not available? You’ve defined words, is this part of your solve? Using the words in the poem to find the clues to find the chest? Besides the two obvious, how do you know what the other clues are? Did you first find wwwh then use a map from there to find clues? A lot of questions.

      • charlie,

        Thanks for the feedback and obviously many people will have the same questions looking at my previous post.

        I believe fully, that I have completely solved the poem and not because I have some idea about the poem that panned out, but because the poem itself has its own distinct structure and method of revealing its secrets.

        What I have done, is simply unpack what Forrest wrapped up in the package…and yes, word meanings and particularly idioms or phrase meanings played a large part in this unpacking.

        Forrest intertwined the literal with the figurative interpretations of the poem and its verses – what I have been able to do is unravel his ball of string and sneak it out of the bedroom…

        By methodically pulling the strings of each verse the physical and the metaphorical nature of each line can be clearly understood.

        I can provide some examples. Forrest make great use of negatives and contrasting words throughout the poem. This assist in masking his meanings and provides another mental hoop for anyone attempting to figure out both interpretations:

        — Not far
        — No place
        — No paddle
        — but too far
        — But tarry scant

        Also you have to be absolutely determined to see the second or deeper interpretation of all the verses and that interpretation has to be clear and exact, not contrived (meaning you as the reader can’t make additions – everything has to be there all ready).

        So specifically;

        “There’ll be no paddle up your creek”

        I’ve discussed this before but to add to my previous thoughts: The idiom which this is a play on is, “Up a creek with out a paddle.” Which is very similar to; “Up a creek with no paddle.” But Forrest twist this common phrase too; “no paddle up your creek.” This convolutes the literal meaning as well as scrambling the potential deeper interpretations.

        So to begin unscrambling this verse, you can ask yourself; what specifically does the original idiom imply. Well, being “up a creek with out a paddle” is synonymous with being in a bad situation which you don’t have the necessary tools or are not prepared to get out of.

        So what is Forrest telling the searcher who has made it this far correctly in the poem (remember, each verse needs to be interpreted from the prospective that you have correctly followed the steps or clues which came before and thankfully we know each clue is successive).

        Well, this verse is saying that you will now find yourself in a predicament and you will need the proper tool or something, to get out of this predicament and it’s NOT a paddle… (This is one layer of that verse).

        A classic verse that has been gone over extensively is: “Not far, but too far … … to walk.” Here Forrest has combined both the negative and the contrast in one verse – how confusing is that? Especially when everyone know, theoretically, no distance is too far to walk. So what does this line really mean? And on more than one level…

        Well one way to look at is from Forrest own words in the book “Too Far to Walk,” which many people have subscribed (either 10 miles or some metaphorical place or distance Forrest just can’t do anymore – some doors close on us in life and we can’t go back).

        Another way to see this line is in terms of the word “far” since it’s used twice. We know Forrest was an architect in his drawing of the poem and word meanings are important and simultaneously “plain” to him.

        Google defines far as; “a great distance” and for synonyms it list (if we were trying to more accurately define a distance): miles or remote or much.

        So if I had to surmise a best guess at what “far” means in the poem from the perspective of specificity, then the best I could do is; much miles or many miles.

        However the poem says; “NOT far” therefore it’s not many miles but the antonyms of “much” or “many” therefore, “a little” miles or a “few” miles…

        Ok, so if its only a few miles, then why is it too far to walk? What is an unreasonable distance to walk? Or is the poem telling me to do something totally different? After all “too far to walk,” is also a disguised negative statement. Forrest could just as easily have said, “Not far, but do not walk it!”

        My solutions are derived from the ongoing digging down and into every verse but adding nothing to them – Don’t mess with his poem!

        The two clues I refined were:

        “From there its no place for the meek, The end is ever drawing nigh;”
        &
        “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,”

        To provide one insight into Verse #9’s negative statement; what is the antonym of meek? Since its “no” … “meek.” Well on the first level it means, if you have correctly “put in below the home of Brown” – that is absolutely NOT enough. “From there” the searcher still has to figure out, exactly where or what direction to go next.

        This is what Forrest means by “deliberate in their actions” in previous Q&As. So somehow these lines or other lines related to these lines, tell a searcher, exactly how to proceed from there…

        Ok, Charlie I hope this reveals enough, but not too much.

        GCG
        See what I did there (Forrest is infecting me)

      • charlie,

        As to finding WWWH.

        Yes I have definitively found the correct WWWH but I didn’t so much find it as the poem reveals where it is.

        I didn’t find some “warm waters” and then see if the poem matched the location. The poem told me the location and then I looked and low and behold what was supposed to be there was!

        To my utter surprise, might I add, since I had no clue as to where this was, other than what the poem revealed in its clues.

        Afterwards I bought the book and then found the hints in the book which then provided corroboration.

        Even more fascinating was as I looked closer at maps of the area and studied (“no substitution for observing”), I discovered even more evidence from the poem and its clues which matched this location.

        Then I stopped trying to guess what clues meant and instead place the clues with in the context of the geographical location. I didn’t do this at first unfortunately because I had my own ideas about how the clues could work and this would have had me forever searching a specific spot that was actually about 1 mile off of the correct location.

        It wasn’t until I fully submitted to the poem and its clues, that each part began to have the designers intent fulfilled.

        It did help me to leave Stanzas 2,3,4 and dwell on 5 and 6 a while. They provided me with an insight which led to understanding and learning something new to my knowledge set. This was critical to solving the secret of the poem’s ability to lead you precisely to the treasure.

        In particularly, I found verse #24 to be peculiar
        “I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.”

        Especially since at 79 or 80, when Forrest hid the treasure he was still in very good health and said often he could still go back and get the treasure if he so decided too…

        So at the time, you might be able to say; “it wasn’t yet too far to walk…”

        GCG

        • What elevation are you at GCG (at the TC) if you don’t mind my asking? You sound confident which worries me a little lol.

          • Don’t let it worry you mcb.
            It is easy for folks to make it appear they have it all figured out. Maybe he does…but the odds are not forgiving in this Chase. I think the person who could now or in the future be closing in on the treasure would never go on any of the blogs and advertise it.

          • Sounds like good advice ken. I guess I should volunteer to work weekends until summer to keep my mind occupied lol. June/July are still a ways off. I hate waiting.

          • Cowbelll,

            That is too specific of info to give out.

            Ken,
            I too read or have read those other post where people claim to know where the TC is but all most all of them are fairly ridiculous and the very few who sound somewhat credible are still far too nonspecific in their understanding of the poem, Q&As and Interviews…

            I share with you guys cuz you’re the best! And no one else, anywhere can appreciate this more than you all…

            I’m not advertising, it’s about all of you!!!

            Home of Dal is a rare forum and it should be distinguished.

            GCG

          • GCG…There is no ill will intended.
            Some folks go nuclear when they get cornered or nervous and start spewing more “stuff”.
            Personally I like reading your ideas…it is often calming.

        • Hello GCG,

          You said that the hints in the book provided ‘corroboration’. If you don’t mind, how do the hints help the clues in your opinion. I know they are subtle, but do they help pointing to areas or places, to word definitions or they allude to the methods used?

          I see oddities and aberrations in the book but no direct help with the clues just yet.

        • Hi GCG, you said that the hints in the book provided corroboration for your clues. If you don’t mind, how do the hints in the book corroborate a clue? Is it place names, word definitions or do they allude to the methods used, I mean, how subtle could they be?

        • I hear you GCG, and see you’ve done a lot of work. As we all have. My question is, the words. You used the words to tell you where the spot is. The words of the poem will not find the chest.
          Also, there is no solve for wwwh, until you have the chest. But, I do admire anybody that is taking on solving the poem compared to trying to solve the clues.
          As far as “not far but too far to walk”, I’ve gotten into it with zap on this one. We all know what it says, but the counter is that you have to walk a long distance. Let’s put it this way, we now at some point we have “to walk”. So, what is it we need “to walk”. It’s not far, f says that. But it’s “too far” “to walk”.
          So, how far is “too far”. When you look at the ATF, “if you are walking long distances to find the treasure you’re walking “too far”. He says it again right there. “Too far” equals LONG DISTANCES. So, what do we have “to walk”? We have to walk a long distance.
          But for anybody to get a solve with the words of the poem, they need to get around the ATF from “Nope”. And, to solve for wwh, hoB, and the blaze, they need to get around the ATF when he addressed “Madam”. (sorry, not at work computer for ATF).
          The good thing is if true, you solved the poem and it told you where to go. Clues aren’t that important then, just the spot. So who knows GCG, I say if you’re confident, only failure will get you closer. Unless of course you find it right out. While possible, it’s just tough to think someone will but not even have a year in yet. But, possible.
          You’ve given a lot about your solve, whether wrong or right, anybody that puts the time in to get a viable solve in their eyes deserves a little congrats. Like I said before, if you are right, I’m totally impressed.

          • Charlie ~’ I do admire anybody that is taking on solving the poem compared to trying to solve the clues.’

            I think there is a difference as well.

  51. JDA- nope you didnt give away too much. you are still way off. the poem will lead you to two feet not 100. using your own two feet, and then someone else’s.

    i think.

  52. Ken,

    I saw your post previously, that you were going to pick through my comments (the hypothetical) on the whole 200’/500′ thing…

    Hopefully you got something out of the logic experiment.

    I do try to include new takes or new ideas in most of my post — or at least ideas that haven’t been commonly/recently discussed.

    For examples:
    Forrest use of the phrase “striking distance” and the person who came with in 200′ and its potential relationship to the blaze.

    Pronouns aren’t verbatim “nouns” but, it might be careless to differentiate them.

    Or that most likely, there is two or more routes possible between clues #1 & #2…

    GCG

    • More follow up to the hypothetical

      If “Put in below the home of brown” was Clue #2, then if multiple people got Clue #2 correct then they should also be in a very similar physical place… So then how did most reach 500′, while one other came with in 200′.

      And I do agree with Zap.

      It is possible no matter what verse you think is Clue #2, that the guy who reached 200′ just happen to “go further” in the correct direction, than everyone else who had got that far, but I honestly believe he took a different route verses just happening to go further. And that is a bit of a hunch based on my understanding of the treasure location.

      GCG

      • But they didn’t know it. That is a big statement. They had no clue, so they might as well been on the moon. They didn’t solve or decipher anything. They were just at the spot that is also the first and second clue. Easy enough to stumble on. 200′ could just as easy be someone walking on a trail, not solving anything. The problem is that we don’t know really what those people actually solved, as far as solving the poem is concerned. If they did, probably be found by now. So really, who cares? They just had, at best, a general solve. Which means they had nothing.
        So, when people think that it’s possible to be within 200’m because somebody has, does not mean they knew it. And that means nothing. Anybody could just stumble upon 200′, and that is probably what happened. It could also be an elevation thing, so that’s a whole new set of questions. To vague of a comment to even worry about or talk about…

        • Charlie ~’To vague of a comment to even worry about or talk about…’

          Regardless of the hypothetical scenarios talked about… elevation, direction, 500 vs 200 and who did what. etc etc etc.

          Talking about ideas help to create ideas for a check and balance from the many comments just on this topic alone [ some Loco posted ].

          While some would like to believe in alternative transportation is to be used between some clues… the 500′ [feet] comments ‘Could’ – repeat Could, imply just the opposite.
          For many searcher to have the first two clues [ knowing doesn’t matter for this post ], and have walked past the chest, and the remaining clues, and as close as 200 feetish [lets just say “between 200 and 500 foot marks] They all would have had to drive or use alternative transportation to accomplish the same location of *between 200 and 500 feet* ‘from the chest… because the all apparently had been at the first two clues.

          Logically, if you were at the first two clues “and” walked past the chest *between 200 to 500’* every one of the searchers would have had to do exactly the same drive, and the same distance, and the same alternative mode of movement, other than hiking, to get that close [ regardless of the exact amount of how many searcher did so]…
          LOL, What is the likelihood of that being true and only the first two clues were mentioned, deciphered, solved, indicated, figured our…{ since 2013 or earlier } to date {2018? ok, lets say 2017 to play it safe}

          Vague maybe true, as it won’t help with specifics.
          However, it might be helpful to understand how far we [bloggers] can twist those comments before they break into little useless pieces of info. That seems important enough to me, to keep me from wandering aimless or driving all over the country side.

          Would you say that is a fair assessment and relatively helpful to know those ATF -? – for that reasoning?

          Just curious….

          • Seeker…I believe that this particular topic could be the most crucial one.
            After all, it is where the Chase has stalled for years! Folks don’t want to discuss it for a bunch of reasons, and that is fine. To prove or disprove can help understand.

          • I’m in this camp. You will drive to a start position, near the canyon dow. It’s then a walk, a long walk, to the spot. Just driving thru could yield someone being at the first two clues. It’s a popular hwy. People can easily wlak by the chest, just to go skiing if they wanted, maybe exercise, hiking.
            The 200-500 foot distance thing can make a searcher look for things at a certain distance from the spot and force fit. That is why I said it really shouldn’t have merit. The first two clues could easily be driven by. The chest could maybe see people walking by. The clues can be passed by because there is no solving some of the clues until you know them, meaning you have the chest. Otherwise, you just walk right by, even though you are there. Of course people didn’t know where they were or the importance, they didn’t have the chest so they didn’t have knowledge of the clues. No chest, no clues, therefore no knowledge of the spot. The 200-500 thing makes no difference. They did not know the clues, the spot, nothing. All they had was a general solve. plus, I’m sure f didn’t take a measurement. So, the real question is, since he knows where searchers have been, and says some have been within those distances or elevation, or whatever, How did he calculate? Only by Google Earth. Since he is talking feet, and knows the distance roughly, the poem must somehow tell a distance of feet somewhere. That is a lot more important info. That somewhere in the poem, there will be a reference to feet. And you know what that means :):):).
            Now as far as knowing ATF’s, almost live by them. The checks and balance system. People just don’t listen though, you know that, can’t force them to listen to logic. We will still have people messing with the poem, moving things around, using only the words in the poem, looking underwater, finding the first clue in the first stanza, having multiple blazes, lol, I guess that’s where f gets his “entertainment” from. I’m sure he loves the fact that he said ” a word that is key”. And there are 9 clues in the poem. Couldn’t be more entertaining for him. He would never say it, but I’m sure, in talking to himself, more than a thousand times has said, “you idiot”, and laughed. Especially to the one’s that found his chest, but he must have moved it. There is just know way people can believe that they are just as dumb as the rest of us. Between just us, that’s who will find the chest. Not the smart, educated, know it all. They can see themselves doing or figuring out anything. It’s the one that isn’t that smart, knows there is no way they could come up with the solve they have unless someone told them. That it was by design to figure out, and that it is impossible to figure out because they couldn’t know the stories beforehand.
            Einstein comes up with a solve and says logic says it’s there. And he’s wrong. Billy Bob redneck comes up with a solve and says, it has to be there because no way I can come up with this, force fit anything to match everything, I don’t know that much. And he’s right. I can’t wait to find this thing so I can show the world just how dumb I really am…:). I’m either wrong, and a genius for what I came up with, or I’m right and the dumbest genius I know. Either way, I’ll probably get lost anyway…I’ve already tried the mountains in November, so I’m more inclined to think I’m just a dumb $^%…:).( ever been so cold your feet feel drenched/wet, but when you check, they are totally dry, lol, must have been why my ears felt like needles were being stuck in them, boy genius)…

      • ah…. but NO one knows if he means the 500′ or 200′ is “linear feet” or “Feet in elevation”… now do they?

    • GCG…
      I appreciate the offer to “pick” through your hypothetical.
      I truly enjoyed reading through a “hypothetical” set of ideas posted clearly without innuendo attached. It is close to that time of year again…and some folks get way out in front before the journey even starts…typical.
      Folks have pretty much said most of what I was thinking about what you were proposing…in some form or other.
      Because of the vast disparity in what the clues actually are…and what searchers think they are, it is challenging to pinpoint ANY ONE thing in your chain of thought and tie it together sensibly.
      I will just say this…searchers HAVE figured the first two clues and gotten within 200′ of the treasure and then walked/went on by….so…for me, this means they did not know what HOB is, or even realize the possibility that HOB was there.
      Fenn also has said something about…if you don’t know where you’re going, any trail will take you there
      also…if you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue
      Subject matters….
      Good luck this season GCG!

      • Gentlemen (or ladies who join in),

        I am always amazed at the volume of debate over the 200-500 foot comments in light of how dated they are in 2018. More so, about how little there is discussed about his very important -voluntary- words:
        Featured Question with Forrest Fenn and The Thrill of the Chase …
        mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chas…

        Mar 22, 2017 – “They are still in hibernation, but… I think the gold will again become alert to the tromp and vibrations of hiking boots. Are they hopefully anticipating? I don’t know. f.”

        I think that all the talk of 200 feet, should instead be “200 hair-widths.” Key words, “…the gold will -again- become alert to the tromp and vibrations of hiking boots…”

        IMHO, the 200-500 feet chatter might as well be 200-500 miles. Also, there may be a good reason that he used “tromp” when “vibrations” would have been sufficient.

        For everything there is a reason,
        For every harvest there is a season.
        While others read and do their wishing,
        This young man will be, “Gone Fishing!”

        Enjoy the weekend!

        • Fishing is a good past time LMN….and unfortunately your 200-500 miles will most likely be fairly accurate for most.

          • “Fishing” is my code word for “finding” and the rest of your comment was my chuckle for the day!

            IMO somebody “tromped” away in 2017 for very -good reason- but they shall return.”

      • Please . . . note that when somebody posts 200′
        (instead of 200 feet) the meaning could be very,
        very misleading.

        Do some research, think about navigation, remember that a pilot would know about this stuff, and remember that FF was a pilot.

        And please remember that if you haven’t used a dictionary to look up “halt”, you may be too lazy for your own good regarding a correct solution to the poem. I said “solution”, because “solve” is not a
        noun.

        (I’m not in the mood to repeat this many more times).

        • Tighter,

          You know – I’ve kind of been swinging between the two uses (feet and ‘). I keep thinking the context is clear to most searchers but you are correct that given every little detail can matter in this hunt and given some people may just drop in for a single comment – the prime symbol ( ′ ) could be confused with arc-minutes…

          I’ll be more careful in my post in the future or at least define my terms.

          GCG

        • Sir yes Sir!
          Although we could have collectively used the word solve as a substitute for solution for long enough to give it a meaning of its own. Solve-solution-same thing.And I don’t believe that looking up the word halt is necessary. I think that the definition is pretty simple to figure out using basic understanding of the word. But all that is IMO. Sir!

  53. Dal,
    I have a question for you. Have you confirmed that Forrest has made the statements below?
    “I will say that I walked less than a few miles (whole trip of hiding the chest and treasure) if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles” – (MysteriousWritings Blog – Talking in Circles/ October 13, 2014

    Is it possible to only walk a few miles the whole trip of hiding the chest and treasure.

    Montana and Wyoming:

    A. Loading the goods into the car, driving to the airport, checking in, walking to the gate, couple of bathroom runs (older folks can confirm), getting off the plane, getting luggage, getting a rental car, loading the car, driving to the location, hiding the chest, filling the car up with gas, returning to the airport, dropping off the car, checking in, walking to the gate, getting on the plane, couple bathroom runs, getting off the plane, getting luggage, walking to your car, driving home. Then add you might have needed to stop some place and eat. Is it possible to only to walk less than a few miles?

    B. Loading the car with the goods, driving to Montana/ Wyoming; Yellowstone 949 miles from Santa Fe, 14 hrs 50 minutes. Would one only walk less than a couple of miles? Stopping for gas, eating, overnight stays, hiding the chest, returning home, stopping for gas, eating, overnight stay to get home. Is it possible to only to walk less than a few miles?

    And this statement!
    “The last time I was up there was 1950.” (Yellowstone or West Yellowstone) (Isaac Cole’s Podcast / On the Road With Charlie / May 8, 2017)

    Regards,

    Doug

    • Doug – From featured questions – Talking in circles from Jenny’s site on Oct 17, 2014 is the following: “Hi Forrest,
      You once said you walked the 92 miles from West Yellowstone to Bozeman to just experience it. Obviously you were much younger than you were when you hid the treasure. Too far to walk means different things at different ages so I was wondering if you would be so bold as to give an estimate of how far you walked to hide the treasure AFTER LEAVING YOUR CAR: was it >10miles, between 5 and 10 miles, between 1 and 5 miles, or less than 1 mile? ~Thanks, Ron

      .
      Ron, your question sounds like a travelogue, but I’ll answer it. No, I don’t want to be that bold. But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles?” f

      This quote should eliminate all of your “other” walking – airport, rental car place etc. Forrest says that he walked”a few miles” from where he parked his car, in the process of hiding Indulgence. Take Forrest’s word, and don’t try to complicate it is my suggestion – JDA

      • Thanks,
        So the reference I read, (whole trip of hiding the chest and treasure) was misinformation. I too thought he only said, he walked” less than a few miles” from where he parked his car. As anyone heard anything different?

        How about, “The last time I was up there was 1950.” (Yellowstone or West Yellowstone) (Isaac Cole’s Podcast / On the Road With Charlie / May 8, 2017)?

        • As Dal said, please, do your own research – we are not here to do it for you. Once you do the research, state YOUR opinion about what you have found, and some may chime in and agree, or disagree. Good luck to you. JDA

          P.S. If, like your “last time” quote, you can find it, and it gives a source – like “Isaac Cole’s Podcast – etc. I would believe it.

          How can any of us “verify” that it is real? WE can’t. I guess only Isaac can. If you doubt everything that is sourced – you will have a rough time of it – JMO – JDA

      • Doug: echoing JDA. There are close to a half million posts on this blog. All of your questions have been answered a dozen times here. I know its frustrating to do the research, but it is your responsibility to do so as a newcomer.

    • Doug,
      This was a Q&A
      The answer was;
      Joe, you make this thing so complicated. Reminds me of the reason I don’t like meetings. I hope you don’t belong to a PTA someplace. I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.

        • Doug, here’s another “lesson” . . .
          FF has told us to read the blogs for
          entertainment. My interpretation of that
          advice (of course I’m not authorized to speak for others in this matter) is to use
          the poem and FF’s writings (books, for example), but not rely on anything said by ANYONE else. People think that “halt”
          means “get cooler”. I don’t trust folks like
          that to be good sources of helpful info for
          solving the poem.

          The above is my opinion.

          • tighterfocus,

            I agree with what you said. From what I have seen, some may take things in the literal sense that what one person or a group of others combined reasoning is true.

            Sometimes I have to dry my eyes from laughing so hard. Other times I just shake my head, I won’t tell you in what directions.

            I was very surprised to see how long the 200 to 500′ discussion went on. That was truly entertaining and didn’t see one valid point, of course that is IMO. 🙂 Then again some may believe what I just said. LOL

  54. Does Brown mean Be our own?
    Not a physical structure but home as in other synonyms
    And then a place they considered their own?

    Does brave mean gallant?
    Brave and in = gallant and in = Gallatin?

    Does paddle mean like a paddle fan? Or fan creek? Or beaver’s paddle tail = beaver creek.

    In logging video Forrest calls lumber ‘heavy loads’. = trees?

    Public land in rivers is below high water mark = water high?

    Just my two cents

  55. The way I see it, every one of the Nine Clues is in this article about the Madison river. At least down to this paragraph:

    “From the broad depths of Baker’s Hole, where there is a state campground, on into Hebgen Lake, is the stomping ground of the “gulper” fishermen, those sly and secretive fellows and gals who gather here at dawn or sometimes dusk to fish very tiny dry flies for nice large trout.”
    (I would search on the west side of 191)

    http://www.yellowstoneflyfishing.com/madison.htm

    • A real eye opener is to use google maps (not GE)) and start at the end of Madison at Three Forks Montana. Then look all the way to Madison Junction. But stay zoomed in so that it shows some of the Following

      Buffalo Jump
      Black Ford
      Green
      Red
      Warm Springs
      Canyon
      Ennis

      When Madison splits follow the fork
      Then go back to main Madison and look for
      Slide
      Quake Lake
      Hebgen
      Watkins
      Rumbaugh
      Cherry
      Grayling
      Bakers Hole
      7-9 holes
      Grasshopper
      Madison junction

      Is this sort of like the tying of threads one to another to make a knotted rope ? Or a marked trail of treasure map?

      It might just be coincidental. I’d say probably. But I like all opinions and all possibilities.

    • Forrest wrote about tying threads to make a large string ball. If one starts at Three Forks on Madison and looks very closely using GOOGLE MAPS there will be the following ‘thread knots’. But zoom in really close to see some of them. (Names will pop up when zoomed in)
      Look for
      Buffalo Jump
      Black Ford
      Green camping area
      Red camping area
      Warm Springs look close..zoom in
      Bear Trap Canyon
      Ennis
      Keep following all the way to Madison Junction and look at all the coincidental names.
      Then go back and follow Madison fork for namesalso.

      Maybe it’s all coincidental though. Wink

  56. Searchers,
    I skimmed through the entries for this week; one of the topics seems to be questions about how some searchers followed the first couple of clues, but then had trouble following the next clues.
    Would searchers be willing to consider the possibility that the first couple of clues might be difficult to find, but comparatively easy to follow, while the next couple of clues might be both difficult to find, and also very difficult to “precisely” follow?
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • Geoff Idaho,
      Your right on with the flash light. The finder will use one. The
      TC will be found in the cold of the night. Of course in my opinion.

      • I don’t see much advantage in searching at night.
        I see potential for danger. Searching during the day is likely to be considerably safer and more comfortable, compared to searching at night.

        But this does not mean that bringing a flashlight is
        a bad idea. A flashlight could be useful during a
        daytime search hike. I suggest a relatively small
        but bright LED flashlight. There are some very
        nice ones on the market. Good luck to you.
        The above is my opinion.

        • Morecowbell: as long as you’re not searching in a national park, sure. However, consider this ATF from Forrest (second-to-last sentence):

          “I still have about, uh, something like 4,000 arrowheads. And I tell people I’m saving those, because after the next war, I’ll make a fortune selling my arrowheads to different armies around the world. Einstein had said, “I don’t know what we’ll fight World War III with, but World War IV is going to be fought with sticks.” And the technology is changing so fast. I mean, if your computer is two years old, it’s archaic today. Technology is not going to help you find that treasure. But your mind and your body and your attitude changes as things change.”

          • Thanks Zap. I never thought he would bury it because of the difficulty in actually finding it. Gloves and a backpack is usually what I take. Flashlight won’t hurt.

          • Hi Morecowbell – (love Christopher Walken, btw!) I’m with you: I’ve never been big on the idea of Forrest burying the treasure. Obscuration is sufficient, and doesn’t require him to carry or pack a shovel. On the off-chance he got spotted, a hiker with a daypack is a lot less conspicuous than one carrying a shovel.

        • I see myself taking out my flashlight, a small LED type, with my big knife. I am scraping some gravel and rocks away from a bronze looking thing, with a design on it. Below a rock, in a shadowed area which is not getting direct sunlight. Suddenly I realize I have tripped an alarm which is sending a signal to a satellite above. It is raising my anxiety level, but I breathe and try to relax. Then I hear a man’s voice which utters the words, “Howdy Pilgrim; Can you skin griz?”

          All in a dream of titles and gold:

          Franklin

    • Hi Marcelo,
      Anything is possible. IMO
      The real question is, does it fit?
      It has to fit to be legit. imo
      dean

    • Marcelo-
      One interpretation is an old phrase used decades ago by fisherman…but no more.
      Around the 1840’s near Frankfort, Kentucky a series of watchmakers with Swiss heritage started making fine fishing reels. The reels were generally known as Kentucky casting reels. One of the finest and most expensive was made by a fellow named Meek and his partner. These reels are collector’s items today. You can see a few examples of them here:
      http://antiquereels.com/displays/Rare_Meeks.htm
      These reels were casting reels…generally used for catching bass or pike…not fly reels used in trout fishing. None-the-less the name Meek became synonymous with excellent craftsmanship in fishing gear.
      The Meek reels had such a reputation that fishers of all denominations adopted a phrase meant to describe water that was dangerous or a place where a fisher could lose a reel. These places were generally referred to as “no place for the Meek”.

      This old adage has been pointed out by many others on this blog over the past six years.

      • This point about Meek reels is interesting — but I think it’s simpler than that. Remember the Indiana Jones scene, “Only the penitent man shall pass”? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NkGTyndJC1w The penitent man kneels before God. So does the meek. No place for the meek means “at this point, get on your feet (out of your car) and walk”. It could also imply that you’re walking somewhere steep, or with a precarious ravine nearby.

    • While in Gibbon Meadows we were getting eaten by flies and I thought this is definitely no place for the meek!

  57. Dal after 6 years you finely made a comment that made it to my favorites list good job

  58. The Meeks took on an apprentice by the name of Milam. He also made reels with the brothers. Somewhere, Forrest said he’d ride his bike 20 miles to wash rather than walk the one mile to the train station for a shower. Too me, one mile is just about “too far too walk” for him.
    Milam=one mile=too far too walk to the fishing hole
    HOB=the fishing hole
    No place for the meek=Meek Reel
    Milam and Meek

    Also, notice that one of the brothers was “JF” Meek. The little fan on top of that signature on page 95 (I think) looks like a spinning fan, or possibly a reel.

    I don’t know if this helps anyone with their nine clues but I hope so. I wonder if Forrest owns an original Meek reel? A neat thought.

  59. One should take a flashlight and a sandwich. But what type of sandwich?. I do appreciate a good BLT, or turkey avocado is quite good too. Oh, or how,about a Reuben sandwich? Those are good. Peanut butter and Jelly might work. Now, let’s talk batteries for that flashlight….

    • Sparrow,

      Funny you should mention the kind of sandwich to pack.

      In 1996, my father and I did a quintessential father/son roots trip to Ireland. While there we decided to visit the west coast and the fishing town of West Port, established on the very east end of a bay – and in the shadow of St. Croagh Patrick’s mountain.

      West Port is home to the Chieftians and during an evening of awesome “crack” and blarney in their pub, we discovered that sojourning to the top of Croagh Patrick was a spiritual tradition of the Irish, so my father and I decided to do it together the following day (regardless of how late we slept in).

      So it was that we found ourselves staring up 2000 feet from its base the next afternoon with only a backpack carrying; one orange, one apple, two PB&J’s and a bottle of red wine…

      Trust me, don’t forget the sandwiches!

      GCG

    • I always thought a picnic area sign looks like a math pi symbol. He mentions pies and brown sack lunch bags.

      His family would stop at picnic site near mummy cave and of course Forrest was off eating his sandwich in the cave near road.

      Wonder if there are other caves like mummy (which only a child might notice because entrance is lower to the ground) near picnic areas?

  60. To remember:

    Forrest said, “The problem researchers do is that they do not live long enough on the first runway. If you can not find the first clue, you have nothing. People driving down the street looking for a fire because that is one of the things, but you can not get in the middle of the poem and find the treasure. “(Outside: Live Bravely – August 11, 2015)

    Q – Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident she solves each clue, or only confident when she solved them all?

    FF – I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India can not get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.

    This means that the first two clues do not depend on the following clues.

  61. OK, let’s make it an interesting spring around here. I’ve been in the game a while now but I have backed way off of the blogs…at least for a while. Against my better judgement and because human nature is to ignore advice from competitors, I am going to divulge where in the poem the nine clues are (Mandatory IMO):
    1. Begin it where warm waters halt
    And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.
    2. Put in below the home of Brown.
    3. From there it’s no place for the
    meek, The end is ever drawing
    nigh; There’ll be no paddle up your
    creek, just heavy loads and water
    high.
    4. So why is it that I must go, And
    leave my trove for all to seek?
    5. The answers I already know,
    6. I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak.
    7. So hear me all and listen good,
    8. Your effort will be worth the cold.
    9. If you are brave and in the wood I
    give you title to the gold.

    • I can’t let you be the only one MichaelD, here’s what I get:
      line 5 – place
      line 6 – place
      line 9 – thing/object
      line 13 – landscape/place
      line 16 – thing/object
      line 17 – direction
      line 20 – distance
      line 22 – place
      line 24.- time, distance
      Key- line 9- date
      Word that is key – line 17.

      Only know because of BotG. Poem solved gives a spot. The start position can be gathered/understood then. There is nothing that solves for wwh. Nothing gives the 3rd clue except maybe line 1, but that’s shaky at best. Nothing solves for clue 4, but there is backup info to where it is. (marvel gaze is how someone would see an object there). Clue 5 is there. Clue 6 can be solved from the poem. Clue 7 the same. Clue 8 is the spot. Where everything happens. Clue 9 is more like when, and gives the distance and direction to go. Goes with the key, which is backed up with the word that is key. I hope that is all very confusing, :). Again, have nothing until the solve of the poem. Cannot use only the words in the poem, cannot solve for all the clues, the info is never given. IMO, a searcher cannot know wwwh is before they solve the poem. Solving the poem comes first and foremost, everything stems from there. It yields a start position, that is wwwh. Trying to solve for wwwh before you have the final spot is foolish and impossible. There is no correct answer for wwh anywhere, until you know the final spot. Solving the poem is the important thing, the clues, the one’s that cannot be solved, present themselves as you move to your spot
      For a noob starting this chase, that is what they should do. Solve the poem, don’t worry about clues. If the info was out there to solve clues, the big ones, then a searcher could solve for the blaze before they solve for wwwh. That is not going to happen. F said as much. You don’t solve the first clue to get the second to get the third, the poem was not written this way. The only thing that fits all is solving the poem, finding the spot, and going to it.
      You do not need a map to start with, that will only make you bias to a spot. The map comes when you’re done. You can only marry clues when you already have the chest.
      Thought I’s give a little more MichaelD, :).

      • Forgive spelling mistakes, trying out Seeker’s spellchecker in hopes of springing some good ideas. Worked once so far. 1 of a couple hundred is acceptable. (as Seeker’s head swells) lol, can’t fit thru the door, CALL THE MAILMAN….

  62. Q~ Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman
    A~ There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f

    In this Q&A the full context of the question is very important. What Phil was trying to find out was exactly that, if using just the words ‘where warm waters halt and somewhere north of SF’ will translate to one specific place. That is why he also added, (if not) will I need more of the poem? In other words, is ‘where warm waters halt’ one place???

    Fenn answers NO, where warm waters halt is not enough to be specific. Not all words are useful but is risky to discount any of them. And you oversimplify the clues. Again, calling it just WWWH oversimplifies the clue that he intended AND we are discounting words as well. What follows after that was an attempt to explain that if we only use those words (where warm waters halt) that could be anywhere north or south of Santa Fe, just as we could say – hey, wait for me at the canyon down north of SF. That would be ridiculous right? You will need more information than just those words. In my 100% correct opinion.

    • Nice write up Oz10…
      The problem I see with this whole escapade is that Phil did not just ask one question. In his second Q he brought everything back around to include the poem and the words, lines stanzas and thus the implied meaning of it in it’s entirety. Tough one….

      • Fenn decided not to be bold with an answer that would give away the clue. That was a very good question from Phil though, I don’t think I could have asked it better. Remember that the setting was (someone unfamiliar with your poem). And if they have never seen the poem what other words, stanzas, lines (or the whole poem) is needed to correctly identify WWWH. See, he did try to corner ff into giving away that clue, and in a way Forrest gave the truth but not the whole truth. 🙂

        • As an aside to this…one still has to look at the fact that folks still figured the first two clues and got close to the treasure…”without” fully understanding the poem in it’s entirety. To do this would logically imply that wwh can be determined in a basic way. hmmm

          • Repeating what I said above:

            Q – Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident she solves each clue, or only confident when she solved them all?

            FF – I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India can not get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.

            This means that the first two clues do not depend on the following clues.
            You do not need clues 7 to 9 to find clues 1 and 2.

        • We can always oversimplify or over-complicate the clues. Fenn said on that New Zealand interview that the first clue is ‘Begin it where warm waters halt’ and not just (wwwh). What is the difference between the two???

          • I understand the difference Oz10.
            My point was that folks/searchers have in fact figured the first two clues without full knowledge of the entire poem and all of the words entire meaning. Probably a lot of “discounted” words to get that far…
            My above was just space saving.

          • Ken you are right. Fenn speaks of clues been solved, the first and the second perhaps the 3rd and 4th.

            What I don’t think we will ever hear from him is, ‘someone was right at the warm waters halt, they even left their towel there but then they took the wrong canyon down which of course sent them on a path way to far too walk and they completely missed the home of Brown.

          • The “Begin” or the “it” or the “Begin it” ??? I know the “it” is very well mportant… it you know what “it” is (as I feel that I do) then the “Begin” and “Put in” makes the difference.

    • Hello Oz, good to see you hanging in there. This is in response to your comment upstairs – https://dalneitzel.com/2018/03/18/the-nine-clues-79/#comment-481632

      You did an excellent job of summarizing what Fenn was imparting – – “Fenn answers NO, where warm waters halt is not enough to be specific. Not all words are useful but is risky to discount any of them. And you oversimplify the clues. Again, calling it just WWWH oversimplifies the clue that he intended AND we are discounting words as well. What follows after that was an attempt to explain that if we only use those words (where warm waters halt) that could be anywhere north or south of Santa Fe, just as we could say – hey, wait for me at the canyon down north of SF. That would be ridiculous right? You will need more information than just those words. In my 100% correct opinion.”

      I agree that your opinion is 100% correct…here is why:
      Fenn answered the basically same question, six weeks earlier than the “most of them north of SF” comment.

      posted 7/1/2014:

      Dear Forrest,
      Q: You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:
      a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and
      b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”
      Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve

      A: No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?
      ……………………………………

      Q: You tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:

      a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and

      b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”

      Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve

      A: No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?
      ……………………………………

      Both questions to fenn are based on the same premise – – ‘we haven’t seen the rest of the poem’

      In the 7/1/14 Q&A: Q: Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail?

      A: No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence.

      ***Here, he is telling us POINT BLANK that the ‘starting place’ cannot be determined solely with the first clue. ( apparently regardless of whatever resources one might have available: maps, GE or otherwise)….So, if the first clue, by itself, does not lead toward the treasure, what else is there??(answer at the end)

      In the 9/14/14 Q&A: Q: Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way?

      A: There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.

      *** So here, after having already stating that the starting place cannot be determined solely by WWWH, he tells Phil, again, that you cannot ‘simply’ use WWWH to find the starting place…there are no shortcuts. – – – And, he explains where to go and find the information necessary, used in conjunction with WWWH, to find the starting place…. “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them.”

      On 11/2/15 he stated, “many people have found the first clue but they don’t know it.”….He has never made a statement that indicated the first clue (WWWH) led anyone to the vicinity of the chest, even though many have found the first clue.

      However, several times he has said people solved the first two clues, correctly, and walked past the chest.

      In My Opinion, in order to be led to the initial ‘starting point’, both the first and second clue must be used….together.

      Folks are getting a mite touchy, again. Think I’ll try and leave her alone for awhile……

  63. Ok, in going back and researching and listening, I have a theory.

    There have been people who have figured out the first 2 clues correctly. (My Group A)

    There are people who have been within 200 feet of the treasure.( My Group B)

    My theory is, these are two different groups and they do not have anything to do with each other.

    Clearly Clueless

    • CC, it sounds like you believe some searchers have figured out the first two clues and knew it. That’s not correct. Nobody will know wwwh until they have the chest, and nobody does. And, just because people have been within 200 feet, means nothing. They solved nothing, just like the people that have been to the first two clues. So, you can put them in the same boat if you want, they didn’t know s&$%. They didn’t solve anything, and they are not the one’s you need to worry about. Because of the timeline of the statement, those people didn’t find the chest at where they thought it was, they’ve moved on. With no idea they where so close. Again, doesn’t matter because they didn’t solve a thing.

      • I really do not think the people who had solved the first 2 clues knew they had.
        In fact, I would guess some had solved the first clue and others had solved the second clue.
        Lol, so I guess I should have had subgroups
        A1 group knew clue 1
        A2 group knew clue 2
        And neither group had been close to the treasure….(neither Was part of Group B)

        Clearly Clueless

        • I could add a subgroup A3 (This group know Clue 1 and Clue 2)
          Yet still has never been close to treasure.

      • It just dawned on me FF said “hiking boots” and not waders.
        I may have to rethink my solution as it doesn’t involve hiking boots to get to the TC. I guess I could wear hiking boots but my feet will get wet as I have to cross a shallow, small river/stream to get to the other side.
        Also vibrations to me mean the TC is close to where hikers would be.
        As they say on Hogan’s Heroes, “Very Interesting”.

  64. General questions for those studying the 200 and 500 ft comments:

    Have there been more “Searchers” within 500 ft or more “Non-Searchers” within 500 ft of the spot?

      • Same question:

        Have there been more “Searchers” within 500 ft or more “Non-Searchers” within 500 ft of the spot?

        • How the heck would Forrest, or anyone know the answer to that? Forrest only knows those searchers who tell him they were at a particular spot. I am going to guess that many. many other searchers do not tell Forrest that they were at a particular spot, and certainly non-searchers do not tell Forrest – To me, a dumb question – sorry – JDA

          • I wonder if Forrest was thinking of a wellvisited hiking trail? If so, he’s probably right about being within a certain distance. Or an oft-visited fishing hole or lake with only one entrance. Like in a box canyon?

            I dunno but could be. Wink

        • Actually JDA – I’m not asking ff at all. I’m asking those here.

          It’s not a dumb question at all.

          • covert, it is a good question. I’m thinking more non-searchers but that would be a guess.
            If non searchers is correct, then we can say the trail is one that is travelled. And with his comment about the chest hearing “hiking boots”, then possibly a hiking trail , but far, or a trail hiking to where people settle/play, like skiing spot or something like that. If “searchers” is the right answer, you’re looking at a remote, non travelled trail that will get you there. So, yes JDA, it is a good question. One that f would probably not answer. Remember, f said that there is no trail within very close proximity, and we know what very close proximity is according to f. A couple od inches. There will be a trail close by IMO.
            So, what do you think Sparrow? With the timeline of the comment, I really don’t think many searchers have been close to the chest, so again, that’s why I think more non-searchers have been close. With so many people at Madison Junction, makes one think that it’s probably not there. Yellowstone either. But what do I know? Nothing…

          • OK – I apologize. I guess that we can offer an opinion based on our location – whether it has a trail or not etc.

            In my case, there is at least one trail in the general vicinity of my search area. So, the answer would be yes, I am sure that a lot more non-searchers have been within 500′ than searchers – just because so few searchers, to the best of my knowledge come to this area.

            Certainly a few have in the past – how many presently search “my” area? – Good question – JDA

          • Charlie… Where’s the quote from Mr. Fenn about the chest hearing “hiking boots”? that’s news to me. Thanks

          • Here is your answer:

            Featured Question with Forrest Fenn and The Thrill of the Chase Treasure Hunt: Lost Treasure Thoughts
            by Jenny Kile · March 22, 2017
            Dear Forrest,
            You often say imagination is more important than knowlege. Using your imagination, what do you think your hidden ‘Treasure Chest’ would be saying, if it could talk? Do you think it likes where it is at? Is it enjoying the weather? Does it feel lonely? Is it anxious to be found? or just what might it be thinking?
            ~thanks, Jenny

            Jenny,
            Thanks for misspelling knowledge for me. I am sure the treasure chest relishes her guardianship of the rich objects that are concealed in her care, and over which she stands sentinel. They are still in hibernation, but will soon waken as the spring warmth gestures for the Long Tailed Ermine to start turning back into weasels, and the bears start peeking out. I think the gold will again become alert to the tromp and vibrations of hiking boots. Are they hopefully anticipating? I don’t know. f

            Hope this helps – JDA

      • Yet know one can clarify where did the 500’ or 200’ is in “linear feet” or “feet of elevation”.

        Or have I missed that clarification (from Mr. Fenn)?

    • Hey Zap – I believe you may have some insight into the general question:

      General question for those studying the 200 and 500 ft comments:

      Have there been more “Searchers” within 500 ft or more “Non-Searchers” within 500 ft of the spot?

      IMO many searchers would be surprised by the answer.

      • Hi Covert One: a searcher’s answer would of course depend heavily on where they think the chest resides. Personally I think the ratio of non-searchers to searchers within 500 feet is a rather large number. The only tangible support from Fenn for my view is that less than a year ago he said “lots of people within 500 feet of the treasure” but not very many within 200 feet.

        • Agreed – I also believe the ratio of non-searchers to searchers within 500 feet is a very large number.

        • Zap,

          I absolutely believe there has been “just” people not so much searchers have been 500′ of the TC. Then on the other hand the same above applies to both 200 & 500 feet of the TC.

          How can I say that? Campers, hikers, fishermen as well as searchers. Although I believe the nearby campground isn’t visited that much because of its location. So there has not been that many people in the area as it is remote and out of the way and not well known.

          IMO

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