The Nine Clues…Part Eighty

yellow

This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the conversation please go to the latest Nine Clues page.

This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Forrest has told us that  “Begin it where warm waters halt” is the first clue. What is the next clue.

656 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…Part Eighty

  1. Does it go to reason, that the first 2 clues have not been mentioned much on the blogs and on the boards, based on Mr. Fenn’s comment about the first 2 being correctly identified in some e-mails?

    • Clearly Clueless,

      Yes, the first 2 clues have been identified, but also that most of the clues have been identified except for the blaze. I only say that because F has mentioned how near searchers have been with his comments on feet.

      I believe those that have identified the first two clues completely missed the 3rd clue as the hoB. They went right on by missing the last 7 clues.

      Then as I said, others have figured out the clues prior to the blaze. I believe that in its self put others were in the immediate area of the blaze and the TC.

      I do disagree with some that some were within the the distance of feet very near to the 2nd clue to the treasure. I believe there is much more distance from the 2nd clue to the TC.

      I feel the 1st clue is wwwh and the 2nd is “too far to walk”, then the hoB. “From there” after the hoB indicates to me more distance.

      Just my opinion

      • You’re not alone as “clueless”.
        Ever since the hullabalu of HOB not being a structure, I’ve adjusted, rethought and evaluated what “is” versus what i want for my best solve EVER to work. Of course, the following is my opinion only BUT i’m asking for thoughts as it isn’t mainstream clue chasing.

        That said, what if HOB is not a clue… I know, i know. What if it’s just a big hint to quantify or certify a direction or a turn perhaps. The reason i am drawn to this conclusion is as a stand alone statement, PIBTHOB does not get you closer or point towards anything. It’s a spot to do something. If i’m remembering right, ff said a clue takes you closer or toward the treasure. That is definitely note a quote but you all probly know what i’m refering to.

        Anyways, am i nuts for ditching HOB as a clue?
        Is that like blasphemy or somethin?

        Still head scratchin on what takes it’s place.
        Gotsta have nine. 🙂

          • Marcello,

            IMO you would be better off using “always” Never would mean in this case no end.

            English is the hardest language to learn from what I hear. Some words are spelled the same and can have completely different meanings in a context of a subject or sentence.

            I understand your frustration 🙂

        • smokybaer,

          You most certainly should not discount the hoB.
          F warned not to discount any words. The hoB IMO is a clue as I believe most other folks would agree.

          • We only know of confirmation of WWWH being a clue. I would keep an open mind about the HOB line. After all it is around the spot in the poem that past searchers seemed to have gotten lost and left the poem.

    • Clearly Clueless,
      As I recall, fenn stated the first two clues comments in 2013. He started that comment with, a few months ago searchers…
      We can debate all day long to what a few could mean, but basically, it indicates that those e-mails were prior to the explosion of media coverage and the blogs, as they exist today or even in 2013.
      Technically, a few could be 12 months earlier, and fenn played it safe, so those who e-mailed him would not know it was their e-mail.

      So sure, it could be, the clues may not have been mentioned on the blogs… at least, by those early searcher who may have only e-mailed fenn and never chatted on blogs or only lurk or gave up the challenge… Although fenn has stated more have deciphered the first two clues… so who really knows if those clues have been mentioned or not!

      The real question is… even if those clues or any clues were mentioned correctly, would anyone know it? The ones who did decipher them didn’t even seem to know, right?

      • Thanks Seeker
        I have only been working this puzzle for about 2 years.
        I did not even realize that reference was so long ago.
        And, you are right it seems like they did not even know it.

    • Is it just me loco, or did you post the same Q&A twice? in your response, which says both Q&A’s.
      I just want to make sure my eyes are not seeing double w/o alcohol for an excuse.

      I kinda agree with your summation, yet we have this/these comments as well;
      “The most common mistake that I see searchers make is that they **underestimate the importance of the ‘first’ clue.** If you don’t have that one nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta.” f
      And…
      No 49, I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be **preoccupied with later clues**. To me that’s just expensive folly. f

      So, Just to make sure… IF both clues are needed as you said ~’In My Opinion, in order to be led to the initial ‘starting point’, both the first and second clue must be used….together.’

      Couldn’t clue two be mistaken, by many, as a separate clue, and might be actually one clue in all, for a proper answer/clue refference?
      To what fenn stated; “… I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the **starting point,** ~~~although many seem to be ****preoccupied with later clues***.

      I mean, IF [ going by the common most suggested clue two to be ‘and take it in the canyon down’] IF it’s a separate clues, it would have to be considered a “later” clue.

      I only mentioned this [ as you know ] of the possibility that more than one clue may be needed for a single answer/ location/place. In Fact, there may only be two or three physical places/references. So, I agree with your summary/idea, but, lol I need to understand how fenn can say later clues … meaning clue 2 and beyond would be an “expensive folly.”… Regardless of how many clues are in
      stanza 1.
      Or
      Just later clues in general.. like looking for the blaze before wwwh. [ manufacturing wwh because of being blaze orientated, idea ]
      This is a tricky one to understand, by the ATF comments.

      Head banging again…lol

      • Seeker,
        IMO all of the clues are different locations except for “look quickly down” as it is the same location of the blaze.

        However the 3rd clue may help in identifying the correct wwwh. Why worry about wwwh if your sure of the hoB. HoB to me is a slight confirmation that one may be on the right track. The last clue IMO may confirm all of the clues prior.

        Just another way at looking at the AFT comments by F. I think that if you don’t know the correct wwwh the other clues are an expensive folly, more or less one would be wasting their time and only know that because of a failed botg.

        Going around in circles IMO banging a head against a wall. 🙂

      • Seeker,

        I don’t see your comments as “head banging.”

        You are SOLVING. While I am not a clue counter, your summation is logical.

      • LOL, yeah Seeker, I posted them twice…..just to confuse you!! Seems to have worked.
        ………………………..

        You asked, “Couldn’t clue two be mistaken, by many, as a separate clue, and might be actually one clue in all, for a proper answer/clue refference?”

        And, you reference these- –

        ”No 49, I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be **preoccupied with later clues**. To me that’s just expensive folly. F”

        ”To what fenn stated; “… I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the **starting point,** ~~~although many seem to be ****preoccupied with later clues***.”

        >> First, can you point me to where Fenn has ever said anything which could be construed as, the first clue being the ‘starting point’??

        >> Second, I pointed out that Fenn, himself, says the ‘starting place’ cannot be determined by solving “begin it where warm waters halt”, alone……That being the case, since he said BIWWWH is the first clue, the first clue is NOT the ‘starting place’.

        >>Third, if we need something else from the Poem,to get to the ‘starting place’ (and that is what he seems to say here->”There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them.”), then it must be the Second Clue……You can use whatever words in the Poem that help you with the first clue. But, after that, any worde you utilize will be associated with the Second Clue…..remember, the clues are consecutive.

        ………………

        Next, you write– “To what fenn stated; “… I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the **starting point,** ~~~although many seem to be ****preoccupied with later clues***.”

        >> Again, here he says ‘starting point”…..he doesn’t say.’ I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the first clue,(or second, or third…)

        >>So, NO. If Clue Two is necessary to identify the ‘starting point’, it would not be considered one of the ‘later’ clues that he references in that comment.
        ………………………………..

        Then, ‘sigh’, you write ”I only mentioned this [ as you know ] of the possibility that more than one clue may be needed for a single answer/ location/place. “.

        >> Dang, I must of missed something in my post….I’m pretty sure that is what I said, “In My Opinion, in order to be led to the initial ‘starting point’, both the first and second clue must be used.”……so, what’s yer b*tch??????
        …………………

        This is as simple as I can make it, Seeker. And as bad as I hate to type, I wouldn’t do it if I didn’t like ya. But I probably won’t do it again…. Oz10 seemed to get the gist of it….not real sure where your losing it??
        ………………………..

        Question for you: Do you ever, ever, read completely through a post before you start formulating an argument????? 🙂

        • HA,
          I just wrote a long post, with examples… but I think I broke Dals server… the post didn’t load.
          However, you and I said about the same.
          The only difference was, in my attempted post, I brought up the “sounds like three or four clues” comment., But who is really counting anything these days….

          Appreciate the response.

      • CharlieM, LMN
        My point is [ and I agree with loco’s idea ] I’m truly wondering if many of us have the ‘ideas’ of what an actual clue is, screwed up.
        In loco’s example, to my example; that we are at wwwh and “take it in” means a view… that could be consider one or two clues references. A place and an action, but no movement yet. But if that was the case lol..then clues three would NFBTFW. That kind sucks for me in that theory. The only way around that would be IF the first full sentences held 3 clues referring to a place and instruction combined [ in this scenario ].
        That would mean we have a dilemma of what is a clue’s reference, and I’m back to the same old question… how many ‘clues’ give us an answer? But in that scenario it doesn’t tell me how clues 1&2 would tell me where wwwh is… so loco’s idea, in this case, doesn’t work for that particular theory, should he be correct.

        Many here think I like to argue as in fight… My objective is to see how others see possibilities, add them to my thoughts, and see how they pan out. So, when I see something that doesn’t seem logical or reasonable, from many different angles of thought, I question the searchers idea using ATF comments for arguments, for or against those post… some apparently don’t like my method.

        But I can also see how Loco’s idea that both clues one and two need to work in conjunction for the ‘correct’ wwwh. But… for me to do that [ in any thoughts I can come up with ] the clues seem to change from the more popular ideas [ those being, 4 different clues in stanza 2] to two answers or clues in stanza 2… which in this theory would be hoB as clue 2. IF that is possible… then my idea that hoB is the location of the correct WWH can work.
        YET, we have fenn’s comment about “sounds like 3 or 4″… And here is where dissecting ATF can get tricky… should fenn be saying there are up to four clues in stanza 2… I’m crap out of luck in the hoB theory.. IF fenn just answered the interviewer question with “sounds like” as to avoid any help… the theory hold up slightly more. { this is why I like Q&A that fenn receive for later posting over, an on the spot interviews.
        As sharp as he is, the posted Q&A gave him time to prepare an honest answer that could be food for thought vs. an off the cuff answer life in an interview.

        LOL I can see why some don’t like to attempt counting clues as the attempt to solve this challenge… But fenn seemingly made sure he wanted all to know there were 9, for whatever reason. So I do try and adjust the thought that clues might not be what many think… it’s possible that 5 stanzas out six hold clues… but even that thought gets a kick in the head, with the idea… IF you can find the blaze the answer to how far is the chest would be obvious. That does seem like the clues [ not so much any helpful information ] the clues come to an end.

        So I have change my direction and gone back to the book to help with the clues… not to answer clues… to help show where all the clue’s location is at; a single place on a map…. My reasoning [ as i stated before ] the hints might only help with the location of the path and the path are the clues… no answer for clue’s reference or deciphering clue… just fenn’s warning us about; the path would not be direct except for the one who knows the “location” beforehand. From there the poem has all the information to find the chest.
        But I doubt many will jump on this bandwagon… that ok because; You know when I drink alone, I prefer to be by myself, and sometime with Jack D, Jimmy B, Johnny Walker and his two brother Black and Red.

        IF you happen to hear my truck speakers blasting “running with the devil” & “on the highway to hell”… wave ‘Hey Neighbor’ as we pass by.

        • I’ll be in the house blasting George Thorogood. Next to the boilermakers.

          Anyway, you said exactly what I’ve been trying to say. “the hints might only help with the location of the path and the path are the clues… no answer for clue’s reference or deciphering clue”.

          Look how difficult it is to try to figure what and where the clues may be. Then you get f saying things like you can’t know the first clue until you have the chest, people that have been to the first couple clues didn’t know, cannot solve for the correct answer for wwh, hoB, or the blaze. And knowing that he didn’t know of the 9 clues until the poem had been finalized, I mean it seems obvious. The one thing that searchers have not considered for a winning solve. YOU CANNOT SOLVE ALL THE CLUES from the poem. I think the reason most don’t pick up on this is because they are stuck on trying or in what they think, solving clues. Or have solved the clues. To admit that all the clues cannot be solved means they have wasted their time, and the realization they are wrong. Too much pride and egos to start over. But that, in my opinion is exactly what we face. The only thing that can solve for a clue correctly is solving the whole poem.
          He said it’s doubtful that someone would know the blaze before they knew wwwh. It makes people feel that you won’t know the second clue until you have the first. Or the forth clue until you have the first, second, and third. This is not how f wrote the poem, or wanted the poem to translate. You will know the exact end spot before you know wwwh, the blaze, and anything else. Like he said, you won’t know the correct wwwh until you have the chest, or better yet, you will know the spot first, then the clues. If someone has not had BotG, they cannot possibly know all the clues. But they could figure out the end spot. This is how one goes with confidence. Like you said, THE PATH will yield your clues.
          You’ve asked how many hints to a clue. Well, actually, the hints can fit a lot of places within the search area. The ATF’s, S/B, questions, cannot for sure be deciphered until one has the chest and knows what it all means. Like the first clue nailed down. If you think “nailed” is in reference to having to be sure, then what is the only way a searcher will be sure about wwwh? Or, like in my case, there is a hardware store in the vicinity of my start place, where else do you by “nails”.
          We just don’t know if it’s one logical way to look at it or an easy, comical way too. Same thing with “not far but too far to walk”.

          the path would not be direct except for the one who knows the “location” beforehand. From there the poem has all the information to find the chest.
          That says it all. You wont know anything until you know the location beforehand.

          But I doubt many will jump on this bandwagon

          They haven’t yet. But to me, it just seems so obvious. The way he wrote the poem, the time spent, when he realized the clues, his ATF’s that sound like he’s being contradictive. That’s not the case, searchers, IMHO, are still reading the poem instead of solving it. All the info we need is in the poem, if all you had were the words in the poem….yada…yada…yada could you find the treasure?
          Nope.

          The poem is in the book, do you give the correct answers to wwh, hoB, and the blaze in the book.
          No I do not, Madam

          I mean really, look at the poem, look at the words, define them, their tenses, structure, whatever, there is no places in the poem. to find some, searchers force fit a place on a map that sounds good to what they may think follows clues. Instead, remember, you don’t need a map, just the poem. The poem does not answer clues, places, whatever, but it is filled with instructions.
          There is a basis for all his stories. Look at all the stories this guy has. He picked the one’s that he gave us for a reason. Those particular stories match up with the system that he has created. If that had no bearing on the chase, then I would think we would hear more stories about his family then about why Eric Sloane said he was born in 1910. Or why the little things like why a butterfly is a flutterby is important. (you know I have the answer).
          In trying to find hints in the book, are these just two things that may prove the system he uses for the poem? Could be. Why hundreds of coins in the book, but now it’s 265? Hundreds answers that question well enough. Does this “non-clue” have some importance? We know these statements will not give the correct answers for wwwh, hoB, or the blaze. But yet they stick out, why?
          A little of me is also in the box, is it his spirit, he’s not dead yet. Maybe it’s the key, that’s in the box, is he saying he is the key? It is his memoire. But again, won’t help answer what the masses want answered, the important clues.
          The blogs are entertaining, to see everyone debate, try to solve the unsolvable, the arguments about clues, while all along, you just can’t solve all the clues. It’s the poem, and only the poem, that all of every bodies energy should be focused on.Seeker, you may look in the book for hints, but you know, at least I think you do deep down, you won’t find the answers to your questions. Not the main questions you have. Only the chest will reveal that. Everyone has just a general solve, a bunch of guessing, until the chest is found. We have to follow the clues, right? To do that, we need to solve the poem. Anybody saying they have the correct wwwh, is just full of themselves, and most likely wrong. Especially the ones that say they have solved the first 3,4,5,6,…..clues. They are wrong. That’s not how the poem was written or what it was meant to accomplish.
          So, maybe here comes the fireworks, fine with me. If we happened to be the only two to think this way, then I guess it’s only a two man race. I’m 50, athletic, and have three years on you in chase time, but wisdom and knowledge goes a long way. Plus, I’ll probably stop at a bar and have a few. The rabbit never wins.
          This is just me answering Seekers post, don’t everyone get all uptight because your solve is wrong, it’s not my fault. (lol, had to stir a little).

          • Seeker,

            You addressed me (and I saw it) so you deserve a reply. Forgive my brevity compared to these voluminous dissertations.
            Since the trove must be retrieved prior to knowing exactly what words are hints, clues, important or merely facilitate rhyme, I don’t have the desire to count, speculate, wish, or read-into the poem. Also, I -will- be reading all the books -only after- the inside of the chest sees daylight. Any other strategy would invite confusion into my simple brain and the blogs are only a diversion from the grind of a busy day…all shared IMHO.

            Most times when I post, I delete before sending. Some of the other posts are deleted by a mysterious admin and that makes me content to remain quiet…yet serious about the final solution.

            Best wishes to all who rush ahead of me. I rest on providence and timing.

          • Well, we all have our perch from which to sing our song, in hopes that some like-minded bird hears our call, and comes a lookin’ – don’t we?

            Good luck to ya’ Charlie. Hope ya’ don’t get too lonely out on your limb.

            It almost sounds like you are sayin’ – the answer is in the forest, and you will be able to see this, if you cut down all of the trees 🙂 Sounds silly doesn’t it – when expressed like that doesn’t it?

            Oh well – As I said, Good luck to Ya’ JDA

          • It seems likely that one of the clues is the structure of the poem. If you look at the last two stanzas, they both start with So…. for South. That means the fist two stanzas are North… and the middle ones East and West. The cross hairs center on wise and found…it means something surely that is a big clue…

          • Hi Ann;

            Welcome to the chase. Interesting point of view. I do not think that I have seen this approach in the 27 months I have been in the chase. Good luck with your approach – JDA

          • JDA,
            27 months is a good amount of time to be dedicated to the solving of the challenge, alone.

            LOL… But man! have you missed some of the wild ideas by quite a few searchers…
            You may chuckle when I mentioned the Alien Egg and soul sucking dragon… Ha! But that was one of many solves some have game up with.
            Sad part about that solve [ well, not the ‘only sad part’ ] It ended up at one of the most interesting and awesome place that I had never heard about before.

            LOL.. I was almost rooting for it to be there. The trove I mean, not the alien egg.

          • Hey Ann,
            While your Idea of SO to mean South as you explained might not have been mentioned exactly like that….
            Others have taken the poem ‘design’ and bend it in 1/2, top to bottom, which meets on that line [ wise “and” found in the poem. Then bend the poem sideways, from left to right, and it meet on that line at Wise “and” Found… or your cross-hair idea. [structure of the poem].
            Of course, this only happens if we keep the poem in the same design as originally shown in the book.
            If you draw a line from A in “As” to D in “golD” and from E in “therE” to “I” in… well, “I give you title..” the X marks the spot on “and” in “wise and found”

            [Technicality/Mechanically, it all lands on the “and” ] to mean the poem is exactly the same from top to bottom and right to left and corner to corner, when folded on itself.
            [ LOL, some folks have way too much time on their hands. Remind me to tell you about the “stitching vs. Glue” discussion in the binding of the book pages, sometime.]

            But, what’s the point? We already knew of “North” of SF, in the Mountains… how does “and” or “Wise and Found” equal big clue, IF found by any method of the “structure” or design or layout of the poem?

            I could say the same for “Far” to mean right side, and “Nigh” to be left side and we use that as the side to side alignment to land on wise ‘and’ found, right? Like the poem is a mirror image of itself…

            I’m not saying it’s not a clue. But why would we need to apply these methods to find it?

            Just curious.

          • Hi, Charlie,

            I’ve been a searcher for 6 years, with 3 BOTG’s under my belt. I’m not sure if you and I are on the same exact track, but here’s how I have changed my approach. About a year ago I asked myself why thousands of searchers (both armchair and BOTG) haven’t been able to find the treasure. I mean, there’s a LOT of high IQ / adventure types looking. I personally know doctors / college professors / IT people / etc. who have all been involved in the challenge enough that they all have a few BOTG’s (separate from mine). Imagine the combined number of brain cells lighting up to try and find the chest.

            Anyway, … I (along with most searchers that I know of) used to look for / at the ‘clues’ as actual items and/or locations. It (seems) obvious (considering the thousands of failed searches using this method) that this is not the way to go.

            So, if all we need is the poem and a good map, what if the words (clues) in the poem are used to create a RIDDLE i.e. I’m this … I’m that … I’m this … I’m that …etc. What (or where) am I? The answer would have to be SPELLED OUT which would allow the searcher to proceed to the treasure “with confidence.” Thus, the (simple) purpose of the map.

            I’ve actually been able to convert some of the poem into a riddle. I’m not saying it’s the correct riddle, but it is (in this different way of looking at the poem) defiinitely possible to convert the poem into a riddle. People may come up with different riddles, but it is entirely possible. The thing is this, … A riddle ends up with a distinct answer. In this case probably a one or two word answer.

            Let me make something up …
            For example: WWWH = tears on a face. FACE = the notes of the 4 spaces on a musical scale.

            The point is this … the answer(s) to the riddle(s) all end with the location of the treasure being spelled out for us.

            Okay, that’s it for me. Just thought I’d put that out there.

            Be safe. Be successful…

            TJ

        • charlie, no one could accuse you of not being passionate about the Chase, so you’ve got that going for you. But your fundamental approach to solving the poem makes many assumptions that fly in the face of the recommendations that Forrest has provided.

          “Look how difficult it is to try to figure what and where the clues may be.”

          Yes, they are difficult. But they are not impossible. They ARE solvable. You focus a lot on Forrest’s use of the word “know” (e.g. searchers won’t know they have solved the first clue until they have the chest). There is a practical application of the word know, and an absolute definition. I believe in this particular context, Forrest is speaking of the absolute: that you cannot possibly *know* with 100% certainty that you’ve solved the first clue (or any of them) until that bronze box is before you. But that isn’t what matters, is it?

          What matters is knowing with reasonable certainty that you’ve correctly deciphered something — sufficient confidence to commit resources to test your theories. Clearly thousands of people have come up with ideas that they felt justified BOTG investigation. If Forrest had meant you must KNOW absolutely that you have correctly nailed down that first clue, else stay home and play Canasta, there would be a lot of Canasta experts because no one would or could ever go out searching. And that would be a shame because that was one of Forrest’s primary motivations: get kids/people out of the house and exploring nature.

          Next you write: “The one thing that searchers have not considered for a winning solve. YOU CANNOT SOLVE ALL THE CLUES from the poem.”

          You are right: I have not considered that possibility. And won’t. Forrest’s early words on the subject: “There are nine clues in that poem. If you can follow the clues to the chest, you can have it, and the poem says that.” Later he says: “You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.”

          “Mr. Fenn, is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem? ~Steve R”

          Forrest: “No Steve R. The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.”

          Sure sounds to me like Forrest is consistent in saying that solving the clues is essential.

          But then you say, “The only thing that can solve for a clue correctly is solving the whole poem.” This sounds like you’re talking about absolute “KNOWING” again. Forrest has said the clues must be solved in order. I see no other way to do that then to solve the first clue, then solve the second clue, and so on. “Solve the poem” is just the end result of that stepwise process.

          “He said it’s doubtful that someone would know the blaze before they knew wwwh. It makes people feel that you won’t know the second clue until you have the first. Or the forth clue until you have the first, second, and third.”

          That is absolutely correct. And yet you disagree with it. Then you throw out this whopper:

          “You will know the exact end spot before you know wwwh, the blaze, and anything else.”

          That is YOUR opinion, and it’s not a supportable one. It contradicts a host of Forrest’s ATF comments.

          “If someone has not had BotG, they cannot possibly know all the clues.”

          Many would agree with you. I might even be one of them. I do believe most of the clues can and should be solved before leaving home, but I know others are content with just having a starting point.

          The rest of your post is rambling blather and bluster that just repeats the same bad ideas over and over. “Don’t need a map.” Hah. Like you never looked at a map to figure out your erroneous endpoint.

          When the snows melt and you go to your spot and the chest is not there, we look forward to your explanation of how that could be. After all, you know the endpoint. What more do you need?

          • Seeker,Zap & charlie,

            There are some points that were made that I somewhat agree with. I think some ATF comments by F are helpful. All of you talk about solving the clues and I feel that is confusing in its self. F wrote the poem and then discovered that there were 9 clues. Is trying to figure out what are clues and hints, I tend to think that creates more work than necessary. I believe solving the poem is more important than the number of clues & hints.

            Figuring out wwwh natural needs to be done with some knowledge and a little imagination. If one is confident about wwwh the remaining clues will help in some confirmation as you go along, that one has the correct starting. The one line TIITCDNFBTFTW is mostly not helpful, however TFTW by itself is helpful.

            The one thing that is helpful is to have botg, so long as one feels comfortable with the starting point. Personally being familiar with the area that one wants to search is the biggest help. Then go home and work on the poem and marry it to the area. The poem must fit the area easily. If one is guessing and forcing the area to the poem, one may as well start over.

            Dwelling on all of the ATF comments to me creates a much bigger quagmire. Some ATF comments are helpful as well as bloggers comments.

            I think most of you know I am a poem purist, that’s just the way I am and there is no problem how others view things for their solutions and approaches. I’m just saying that is how I go about solving the poem.

            Here’s where I know I am going to get a lot of flak. The poem can be solved all the way to where the TC is hidden. The confirmation that ones solve is correct is to have the TC in hand.

            In summation work on the poem and don’t worry about solving the clues and distances. All the clues can be counted, the distances and the exact coordinates after all is said and done.

            After all that IMHO.

          • I need to add about the flak I will get, should read,

            The poem can be solved all the way to where the TC is hidden “before the 2nd botg”.

          • Zap, you make me laugh. You supply ATF’s that say nothing to the point. You offer explanations why a thought is wrong without any thought behind it. You and JDA are upset, I GET IT, I hate being wrong also, but that’s the boat you are sailing in. Hey, I’ve started over before, it’s not that bad.

            Forrest: “No Steve R. The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.”

            Please argue to me that the poem was written in the form of solving 9 clues to find the chest. That f, from the start, planned on there being 9 clues. Because that is what it sounds like you are saying. If the poem was written to find a spot that a treasure sits at, then the poem solves for a spot that the treasure sits at. NOT 9 CLUES!!! If you get this “spot”, a comprehensive knowledge of Geography would seem to be important.

            Tell me, did you use a map while you were solving the poem like you solve. Scratch that, I know the answer. So, you found a wwwh, matched it to a map, made sure it was near your 2nd clue, then 3rd, and so on to a spot. Is that what you did, roughly? How did you solve for wwwh when f has not given the info to correctly solve for it? Home of Brown and blaze also?
            Lol, if you don’t have the instructions, info, support of info to solve it correctly, what, per say do you do? Guess? play a hunch?

            “You will know the exact end spot before you know wwwh, the blaze, and anything else.”

            That is YOUR opinion, and it’s not a supportable one. It contradicts a host of Forrest’s ATF comments.

            It does? Lol, crackin’ me up Zap. The poem gives you a spot when solved, wwwh, hoB, the blaze have no info to solve for them, so you are saying it’s ridiculous to think that you would know the spot before knowing the unanswerable?

            I have never said not to solve for clues, or that they wouldn’t take you to the chest. I also have never said that some of the clues couldn’t be solved by the poem. I said the poem solve will yield the clues. The PATH, will contain your 9 clues, in which you will find them, which you will follow, to the chest. Even you posts are filled with guessing.
            Okay, if you are solving for clues first then second then third etc… like you say you are, then, HOW CAN YOU SOLVE THE FIRST CLUE WHEN THE INFO TO SOLVE IT IS NOT THERE?
            By guessing? good luck with that. Since you cannot solve for that clue, the first one, how can you continue? And when did f say he wrote the poem to solve for clues. How did he know that it was a clue, WHEN HE DIDN’T KNOW HOW MANY CLUES UNTIL FINALIZED?
            Everyone knows, the poem was written to find a spot, an “X” on a map, not to solve all these clues. They present themselves on the path to the chest. You find that stupid? I’m sure knowing what’s in a black hole is secondary to you even though we don’t have the info to know. No, not Zap, he don’t need the info to solve.
            You say there are so many ATF’s to support that solving the poem, finding the spot, then finding your start point, please produce them. Read them carefully Zap, because the ones that you offered above fall short of proving a point.

            “There are nine clues in that poem. If you can follow the clues to the chest, you can have it, and the poem says that.” Later he says: “You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” uh-huh….okay…follow the clues to the chest, I guess he didn’t want to say “solve”.

            But then you say, “The only thing that can solve for a clue correctly is solving the whole poem.” This sounds like you’re talking about absolute “KNOWING” again.

            Yes Zap, the absolute knowing is your creation, not f’s.
            The only thing I said that you could argue is that I mistakenly said: The only thing that can solve for a clue correctly is solving the whole poem.” That is wrong, and with my posts lately, should have been where your argument started.
            You do not have to solve the entire poem to solve all the clues. Some of the clues can be solved outright. I meant to say the “big” clues. The blaze, wwwh, etc…Only solvable by solving the entire poem. But you go on thinking one clue will lead to two, etc….I assume that you would be stuck at the first clue, BECAUSE THE INFO TO SOLVE FOR IT IS NOT OUT THERE!!!!!! So, you don’t know the third, forth, fifth, etc….You have a general solve. You guessed, and saying that you don’t see the obvious way of solving the poem to get the spot, I find that even more reassuring.
            The thing is, you think you know what a clue is. That whatever you think a clue is can be solved. The truth is, you don’t know what a clue is, or how f would think one is. So, you are playing a hunch. You are guessing, and your ego is holding the map. And, I was just having a little fun with Seeker, that’s why I said I was posting to him, like it or not. If I wanted some bogus rebuttal, I would have posted to you or JDA…..But all fun, not my fault you guys are wrong. Anytime spent in thought is not wasted, you guys are smart, you will recover. I respect you guys (had to spell check there, typed yoyos), if I didn’t I would just not say anything to you, which is probably what you guys would want. But then maybe you wouldn’t critique your own solves so hard, like I know you guys have done, right? 🙂 All smiles Zap, you’re here in SoCal, you have that going for ya…

          • Charlie: I see no point in discussing further. You’ve made up your mind, I’ve made up mine, and I will certainly never come around to your way of thinking. Any further explanations I could provide to you would fall on deaf ears, and I’m not in the habit of beating dead horses. I bid you adieu and condolences in advance.

            So, you found a wwwh, matched it to a map, made sure it was near your 2nd clue, then 3rd, and so on to a spot. Is that what you did, roughly? How did you solve for wwwh when f has not given the info to correctly solve for it? Home of Brown and blaze also?
            Lol, if you don’t have the instructions, info, support of info to solve it correctly, what, per say do you do? Guess? play a hunch?

            “You will know the exact end spot before you know wwwh, the blaze, and anything else.”

            That is YOUR opinion, and it’s not a supportable one. It contradicts a host of Forrest’s ATF comments.

            It does? Lol, crackin’ me up Zap. The poem gives you a spot when solved, wwwh, hoB, the blaze have no info to solve for them, so you are saying it’s ridiculous to think that you would know the spot before knowing the unanswerable?

            I have never said not to solve for clues, or that they wouldn’t take you to the chest. I also have never said that some of the clues couldn’t be solved by the poem. I said the poem solve will yield the clues. The PATH, will contain your 9 clues, in which you will find them, which you will follow, to the chest. Even you posts are filled with guessing.
            Okay, if you are solving for clues first then second then third etc… like you say you are, then, HOW CAN YOU SOLVE THE FIRST CLUE WHEN THE INFO TO SOLVE IT IS NOT THERE?
            By guessing? good luck with that. Since you cannot solve for that clue, the first one, how can you continue? And when did f say he wrote the poem to solve for clues. How did he know that it was a clue, WHEN HE DIDN’T KNOW HOW MANY CLUES UNTIL FINALIZED?
            Everyone knows, the poem was written to find a spot, an “X” on a map, not to solve all these clues. They present themselves on the path to the chest. You find that stupid? I’m sure knowing what’s in a black hole is secondary to you even though we don’t have the info to know. No, not Zap, he don’t need the info to solve.
            You say there are so many ATF’s to support that solving the poem, finding the spot, then finding your start point, please produce them. Read them carefully Zap, because the ones that you offered above fall short of proving a point.

            “There are nine clues in that poem. If you can follow the clues to the chest, you can have it, and the poem says that.” Later he says: “You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” uh-huh….okay…follow the clues to the chest, I guess he didn’t want to say “solve”.

            But then you say, “The only thing that can solve for a clue correctly is solving the whole poem.” This sounds like you’re talking about absolute “KNOWING” again.

            Yes Zap, the absolute knowing is your creation, not f’s.
            The only thing I said that you could argue is that I mistakenly said: The only thing that can solve for a clue correctly is solving the whole poem.” That is wrong, and with my posts lately, should have been where your argument started.
            You do not have to solve the entire poem to solve all the clues. Some of the clues can be solved outright. I meant to say the “big” clues. The blaze, wwwh, etc…Only solvable by solving the entire poem. But you go on thinking one clue will lead to two, etc….I assume that you would be stuck at the first clue, BECAUSE THE INFO TO SOLVE FOR IT IS NOT OUT THERE!!!!!! So, you don’t know the third, forth, fifth, etc….You have a general solve. You guessed, and saying that you don’t see the obvious way of solving the poem to get the spot, I find that even more reassuring.
            The thing is, you think you know what a clue is. That whatever you think a clue is can be solved. The truth is, you don’t know what a clue is, or how f would think one is. So, you are playing a hunch. You are guessing, and your ego is holding the map. And, I was just having a little fun with Seeker, that’s why I said I was posting to him, like it or not. If I wanted some bogus rebuttal, I would have posted to you or JDA…..But all fun, not my fault you guys are wrong. Anytime spent in thought is not wasted, you guys are smart, you will recover. I respect you guys (had to spell check there, typed yoyos), if I didn’t I would just not say anything to you, which is probably what you guys would want. But then maybe you wouldn’t critique your own solves so hard, like I know you guys have done, right? All smiles Zap, you’re here in SoCal, you have that going for ya…

          • (Whoops — sorry for failing to delete the cut & paste of your post below mine. Just ignore everything after the first paragraph.)

          • I have Zap. I expected as much of an answer. It’s not that you can’t change my mind. It’s just what you recommend doesn’t fit. It’s not that the first clue is important to you, it’s that every single clue is. And f has stated that he has not given us the info to correctly solve for some of the clues. You just can’t do it Zap. In your way, if you can’t solve one of the clues, the whole thing falls apart. So I ask, how can you possibly know the answers to wwh, hoB, the blaze, when f didn’t supply that info? How is it that you know the forth clue, when even f doesn’t know if someone has solved or found it? But thinks it possible? If anybody knows the clues it’s f. Why can’t lil indy get passed the third clue? Maybe she can’t see the third clue or solve for it possibly? And of course, how do you know what a clue is?
            You talk about me “knowing”, well look, you have to know exactly all these questions. Even have to know the info that f has said he hasn’t given. How can you know when f didn’t even tell us? Then you criticize a possible solution that follows all the guidelines so to speak. You guys are force fitting. Big time. If f says not to mess with his poem, would you, before you start anything, move stanzas 5 and 6 to the beginning, and solve from there? Of course not, but who does? One blaze, but people think there are multiples.
            If f says he did not give you the answer to a clue, it’s not possible to correctly answer, how is it that people answer it?
            If the poem was written to find a spot, and that he didn’t know how many clues he actually used, then why not solve for the spot? Instead, people try to solve what f has said there is no right answer for. mind-boggling.
            It’s not that I’m trying to change your minds, do on as you will, but really, pick and choose what f is saying to fit a spot? Guessing, playing a hunch? If the answer to something is not available, and you solve for it, isn’t that playing a hunch? Might work with police dramas, but not here. f has said so, but that must be a statement that has no weight. Lol, don’t mess with the poem, “okay, no problem mr.f, let me just move these stanzas first, ahhh, there we go”. Now the 20 blazes line up, straight to Idaho underwater. But it’s not in Ida….OH YES IT IS…
            Okay, you cannot solve for this one cl…….I SOLVED IT. but the info to do so is not avail……YEA, BUT I SOLVED IT. mind-boggling……

          • @Charlie

            In your last comment to Zap, you wrote – – ‘And f has stated that he has not given us the info to correctly solve for some of the clues. ‘

            Can you provide a link, or reference, to where that statement by Fenn can be found?? Thanks in advance……

          • I think you know which one loco, but:
            You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh, and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
            No I don’t madam, sorry. f
            I know there will be those that say, in the book, and that’s the context, but truth is truth, Poem is in the book.
            With comments like you won’t know the first clue (paraphrasing) until you have the chest, and looking for the blaze compared to the first clue is doubtful, you either have to think the clues solved one before the other or the spot would be known first. Since the spot will be known before the first clue, and hoB, wwh, and the blaze have no correct answer , in a more subtle way, in the book.
            IDK, if this was me, and the spot was say ‘impossible to find, I would not give any info or clues to that spot. Just say it’s in the Rockies. Now that’s is impossible. This is suppose to be “almost” impossible. Okay, so I would give some of the info but not all. I wouldn’t give some of the clues answers, that would make it almost impossible. Which is where we are at. And with him stating there is nowhere the correct info can be found to answer some of the clues,(poem in book, all the info we need is in the poem), then it’s easy to see that f didn’t give all the info needed to solve “some” of the clues. Needing a physical presence to finish the solve, tends to say you can’t answer some of the things in the poem. But yet we will be sure the path: I warned the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” says to solve the poem and get a spot, and some of the clues will be on your path. Or I don’t see why lil indi, or any of us, couldn’t just sit at home and solve all the clues. If a physical presence is needed, with all the ATF’s, and knowing the poem solves for a spot, solving clue to clue seems a waste of time. Can’t be done. What do you think Loco?
            F, as you know, tried to think of everything, he knows the poem is in the book, he would have worded his answer different if there was a way to correctly solve for those three things. What do you think?

          • Charlie: what is Li’l Indy lacking that prevents her from doing exactly what you claim to have done? She has the poem; she has a map of the U.S. Rocky Mountains. But Forrest says she can’t get closer than the first two clues, and yet your solve-the-poem approach allows YOU to go straight to the chest. How?

            It would seem the only solution to that conundrum is that solving the first two clues puts you right at the chest, but it’s clear that you don’t believe that (nor do I).

          • Loco, I just read your post up thread.

            I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the **starting point,** ~~~although many seem to be ****preoccupied with later clues***.”

            >> Again, here he says ‘starting point”…..he doesn’t say.’ I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the first clue,(or second, or third…)

            Yes, he also says Identify. So, identify the starting point, and line 5 is the first clue.
            This goes with a searcher solving the poem, getting a spot, and seeing where the starting point will be. There is your path. Your physical presence is needed to decipher some of the clues, because you really don’t know what f thinks a clue is until you are there, looking at the reference.
            If anybody can truly tell me what the correct answer for the blaze is, I’m all ears. Nobody can, impossible. Lil indi can solve for clues, how come she can’t get around the third one? But yet, she could get a starting point.
            All these ATF’s lead to another sensitive topic. It and “Walking”, to walk, walk’s, walks, walked.
            Replace ‘it” with a variation of walk. Lol, sure sounds viable.
            Begin walking at where warm waters halt, and take that walk into the canyon down……just too far to walk, (but if you are walking long distances you are walking “too far”), ….From there walking’s no place for the meek….So why is walking that I must go…I’ve done walking tired and now I’m weak.
            Not saying that it’s anything, just found it interesting…
            The thing is,
            Well Mr. Outta There, I will give you something to chomp on. Stop arm chairing that thing to death and get out in the trees where the “box” is, but before you go, look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions. F

            Follow the clues? or directions?

            F, in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of Santa Fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest? Thank you ~ Nope
            Thank you Nope, Nope. f

            Can’t use the words?

            many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.

            So, we can’t solve it? until we have solved the spot?

          • Kira: perhaps that will be charlie’s answer (though I doubt it). After all, Forrest has said “All the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.” So no book(s) required.

          • Zaphod,

            Its a question just to argue over. It can be addressed in a variety of ways.

            1. She cant get closer because she is in india, and for her to get closer she has to travel. As the map scale prevents her from zooming in to a closer spot. Google earth gets you to what, 50ft.

            2. She doesn’t have the book and therefore cant understand clue 3. Fenn said there is hints in the book as well as it being a good reference material, so yes a book is needed. Of course you dont need it, you can just pick a spot amd start searching, Dal Cynthia, others who pick a start and continue to reset, eventually one will find it that way.

            3 is was always botg, yet fenn just stated you only need botg for the last clue. So having a need for botg is no longer an answer .

          • Yes Marcelo, you need more than the poem and map, like a good book that is a great reference material.

            Fenn said you cant view the chest from GE, because it doesnt go down that far.

            The Indy QA is very similar to the if I was asked to meet some at wwwh and mountains north of SF, can I gind it (paraphrase) fenn responded similarly no

          • Kira,

            I’m from Brazil and I studied RM maps, as Forrest advised.

            If you look up the NM, CO, WY and MT maps you will find:

            4 or 5 WWWH places. (Married poem with map)

            2 with WWWH + CD + “Probable Hob”

            3 with WWWH + CD + TFTW,

            But I found “only 1” with WWWH + CD + TFTW + “HoB with local information provided on a government map.”

            After that, GE + BOTG I believe.

            “I do not know anythings yet.”

          • That will depend on how you define wwwh. And which other lines are clues after that.

            Take lots of pics when you get the chest.

          • Charlie, thanks for answering.

            In a nutshell, it seems you are saying:
            The information(not clues) in the Poem must be used to identify a spot(I prefer ‘location’) first….then the starting point can be determined by identifying the first two clues at/within that spot/location. Then, a physical presence is required, at that point, in order to follow the path that the remaining clues, 3 thru 9, to the end.**** I’ll add that if the Poem identifies a spot, that it would have to be considered a ‘clue’…..Since, per Fenn, there are only 9; it would seem to me that the spot and the first two clues are part-and-parcel.

            Regardless of what you base that perspective on; IF, that is anywhere close to what you are saying….then I somewhat agree. I have been viewing it along those lines for some time, based upon some of what you present and others.

            I’m not totally convinced, knowing the location and starting point, that one cannot identify a clue or clues past the first two, beforehand. At any rate, it appears that searchers have been there physically and walked past those seven clues. Being so close didn’t help them, so you better be dam sure of the starting point before you go!!…..that entails using ALL of the parameters laid out in ALL of Fenn’s ATF comments concerning the Poem.

            Good Luck this summer, but I have a gut feeling we’ll be here discussing this….this time next year!! 🙂

          • loco – I tend to think it will end this summer based on ff’s gut feeling statement. I believe he knows something we don’t.

          • If you look up “gut” on Tarryscant.com there are some interesting articles and makes me wonder that “gut feeling” is the same as “gut instinct”. I can only connect his feeling to the last clue.

          • Loco & Charlie,

            If you correctly solve/interpret the clues in the poem, you will know the location & and you will know the first clue and you will know WWWH.

            It all becomes clear (Forrest ATFs, etc.) And only the poem is necessary, in theory. But in practice, my BOTG definitely informed my thought process and TToTC, in my opinion, really helps clarify or inform the searcher on at least 2 of the correct interpretations of clues in the poem.

            GCG

          • To clarify my last statement – TToTC provides the searcher who correctly interprets the clues, heavy loads of certainty, relative to those interpretations – correctness!

            GCG

          • LOL!!

            GCG, as others have stated, I been at this for 5+ years and have heard it all. I’m not saying your wrong, just that I strongly doubt it…..based on the Poem and Fenn’s comments.

            ‘IF’ you(or any of the others) are correct, then I will congratulate you……an’ Charlie and I won’t be here jawin’ about this….this time next year. 🙂

            GOOD LUCK to Everybody….loco

          • Zap, your reading skills are pitiful. Lil Indi cannot get passed the third clue because at home, she cannot solve for the third clue. She cannot see it on GE. But she can get a spot. And that’s it. Since she does not live in the RM’s, and since she can solve the poem and get a spot, in which she can then see where to start, she could get the first, second clues right, but know nothing of the 3rd. BUT, her path would be direct to “A SPOT”.
            You have dodged so many questions, I don’t see the point in continuing and conversation about it, like you said, you have your way. You some how solved what is unsolvable, refereeing to there not being any info for a correct solve. You somehow solved wwh, even though f has not supplied the info to solve it correctly. Since you’ve said you have a solve, and you go from clue to clue, that means you know the 3rd, you know what the blaze looks like, even though that info is not available, you know why a butterfly is a flutterby, why instead of saying hundreds of coins, he changed to 265, you’ve matched up all his stories, solved for home of Brown, even though that info is not available, you know the book of days, why Skippy is standing, Indiana Jones reference, what he means by “his” rainbow, what “X” is, I’m sure your solve involves Indians, Buffalo, and veterans memorial. I mean, you know what a clue is, you’ve solved for them all by just using the words in the poem, Congrats, you’ve literally done the impossible. And of course you won’t tell what your wwh is because that would give away to much of your solve, looking for a 10x10x5 box in a dense forest in the RM’s. Wow, I feel mentally threatened like not at all. Good Luck, and that I do mean.

          • Charlie: lol — questioning MY reading skills? Your a hoot.

            “Lil Indi cannot get passed the third clue because at home, she cannot solve for the third clue.”

            I will reiterate. I don’t give a rats a$$ that she can’t solve the third clue because I already know why she can’t. ***YOU*** say the poem tells you the endpoint, presumably from which you ~should~ be able to determine the answers to all the clues.

            Then you toss out the unbelievably weak excuse that the reason poor Indy can’t do better is “she does not live in the RM’s…”

            News flash: NEITHER DO YOU. This is a differential analysis between why YOU can do something that she can’t. What do YOU have that’s required that she doesn’t? I claim the answer is: NOTHING. Therefore, anything you claim YOU can do, she can do.

            “You somehow solved what is unsolvable…”

            Forrest says it’s solvable. Only you seem to believe that it isn’t.

            “You somehow solved wwh, even though f has not supplied the info to solve it correctly.”

            Yes he has, in my opinion. You just haven’t been clever enough to figure it out. That’s your problem, not mine.

            “Since you’ve said you have a solve, and you go from clue to clue, that means you know the 3rd…”

            No, it means I *believe* I know the third clue (and the fourth, and the fifth, and the sixth, etc.)

            I have a decent theory for why he mentioned butterfly/flutterby, yes. I have no clue why he fairly consistently specifies the number of gold coins. I’m sure you have some force-fit reason for your location; 265 makes no difference to mine.

            “… you’ve matched up all his stories, solved for home of Brown, even though that info is not available…”

            On hoB, yes — I believe it is quite solvable, but only if you are led to it by the preceding clues.

            You toss out odds and ends like Indians, buffaloes, the veterans memorial, blah-blah-blah because you have confirmation bias in your solution for those elements. Talk to me when you’ve put in 4000 hours — you aren’t even scratching the surface of Forrest’s hundreds of hints, have no clue where WWWH is, and have settled on a game plan that will by design prevent success. Enjoy your vacations, cuz unless your strategy changes, that’s all you’re ever gonna have.

          • Zap,

            You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh, and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the CORRECT ANSWER to ONE OR ALL ABOVE?” ~BW
            NO I DON’T madam, sorry. f
            Unless your screen name is Zap.

            What do YOU have that’s required that she doesn’t? I claim the answer is: NOTHING. Therefore, anything you claim YOU can do, she can do.

            Exactly Zap. Solving by clues, you can’t get passed the third clue, but f has said the PATH would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” He has never said lil indi couldn’t find the chest. She could find the chest but not get around the third clue. Hmmmmm.

            Forrest says it’s solvable. Only you seem to believe that it isn’t.

            Lol, when did I say that? I’ve been saying it is solvable, it’s what you need to do, solve the poem. I see those “reading” skills are improving.

            On hoB, yes — I believe it is quite solvable, but only if you are led to it by the preceding clues.

            Again, see answer above, madam…

            No, it means I *believe* I know the third clue (and the fourth, and the fifth, and the sixth, etc.)

            A searcher who guesses through life is destined to carry a thin wallet.f
            or,

            Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f
            and line up with:

            again, “I warned the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

            You toss out odds and ends like Indians, buffaloes, the veterans memorial, blah-blah-blah because you have confirmation bias in your solution for those elements. Talk to me when you’ve put in 4000 hours — you aren’t even scratching the surface of Forrest’s hundreds of hints, have no clue where WWWH is, and have settled on a game plan that will by design prevent success. Enjoy your vacations, cuz unless your strategy changes, that’s all you’re ever gonna have.

            Lol, like I said Zap, you crack me up. Been here since Feb. 2011. Have way more than 4,000 hours. With those way more hours spent in logical thought instead of random guessing. I throw out a couple hints and you have no clue. But yet, I’m the one who doesn’t see f’s 100’s of hints. The thing is, you never answer anything. You have never given your thought on answering anything, Great contribution. You can’t even get Sowyst right. For vacation, I would suggest to you to stay home and play canasta. Maybe bake a nice crow pie. Keep playing your “hunches” Zap, maybe some day you can actually give some good advice on how to solve something, chase related. I wait with enthusiasm, the next time you help answer something in the poem will be the first. After your 2-3 year minor trek through this all, that would be an accomplishment, and a congrats then would be in order…….Blah…blah….blah….banter….banter…banter……

          • Loco. I should have been more clear, poem solve gives a spot, then can identify a starting point, follow your path to the spot. along the way, you will be able to know what he was referring to as clues. You will have little hints here and there, but clues 3 and 4, IMO, can’t be solved. Clue 5 can be, but will be seen on site. Clue 6 is a direction, Sowyst. Clue 7 is a distance, solved from the poem, which takes you to clue 8. Where everything happens. Clue 9 is a time and a distance that when calculated, and walked off that certain amount of feet will land you at the spot. The spot itself really has no clue, IMO. It’s more like you arrived. The 9th clue goes also with a key, which is a date. Both the 9th clue and the key add up to 113. That is backed up by ” a word that is key”. The word “that” is in the poem once, it is the 113th word. This is all IMO.

            it would seem to me that the spot and the first two clues are part-and-parcel.

            Yup, I agree, like he said, if you can figure out the first few clues you could find the chest.(paraphrasing). Because the spot will be known then.

            For me Loco, clue 1 can’t be solved, or 2,3,4, from the poem. Clue 5 yes, 6,7,8,9,can be. With the spot, clues 1&2 would be obvious. Clue 3 must be small, hidden, and something the searcher will know when they see it. It probably is stationary and has no risk of really being messed with. Clue 4 is the same. It’s the big clue if you ask me, if you can find it, then your well on your way. It lets you know that your on the right track. I think it’s physical, that you can take a picture of, but still not know it’s significance.

            Good Luck this summer, but I have a gut feeling we’ll be here discussing this….this time next year!!

            Same to you, and I totally agree…

          • So Charlie – I have a dumb question. If you have figured out all of the clues so well, why will we be still be here discussing the same thing next year? What is keeping you from finding it? I would almost be willing to loan you the money to go search, just so you can prove your theories right or wrong. – Until you hold Indulgence in your hand, that is all any of us have – theories – JDA

          • JDA, I never said it was correct. But the foundation is there and not to popular. Maybe I do know, I wouldn’t hang my hat on it though, odds and all. I have always said I reserve the right to be totally wrong. I almost wouldn’t mind if I was wrong, that would mean I came up with a solution and force fit the solve I have. It’s a good solve, one I sure couldn’t of thought of, but if it is all me, then I’m impressed with…..me.
            If it’s right, not to impressed, just happier.

            With the odds of being right or wrong, it’s not too easy to just pick up and go. I might not get out this Summer, IDK. It’s not the money, I don’t need a sponsor, but thanks, lol…It’s more like time frame and the window it yields. Believe me, I once had time in November, and that was a BAD idea. It’s funny, but a person can actually fall asleep for 15 minutes standing up when the snow is around you kneecaps. The problem is when you shut your eyes, seeing daylight, and when you open them, you’re in totally pitch black darkness. Every shadow or movement looks like a bear. The wind can at times sound like a pack of wolves. Then you realize you’re the dumbest fool on the planet. The chase sure has it’s ups and downs.
            Always, good luck to you JDA.

          • Thanks Charlie, and Good luck to you too. I hope that some day you prove “you” correct – JDA

            P.S. W gotta’ start a ew topic – this thread is WAY too long – 🙂

          • Another day, charlie, another attempt at achieving, if not an understanding, then at least closure.

            “You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues.”

            My recommendation is to read everything because my experience is that Forrest does not miss an opportunity to provide hints to searchers. You don’t *need* the books, but I think realistically a searcher won’t have the necessary confidence without TTOTC. And I think the hints are even more helpful/obvious in TFTW and OUAW. But ultimately none of those resources is going to be much help to a searcher who hasn’t figured out WWWH using just the poem and their noggin.

            The fundamental difference between our approaches is that you believe the chest’s location can be determined without solving any of the clues. Thus you believe Miss Indy can find the chest even if she can only “solve” the first two clues with just her map of the Rockies and the poem. In contrast, I believe the only way to find the chest is to solve each clue, in order, as Forrest intended and has recommended. But if your approach is the right one, what purpose do the 9 clues even serve? Sounds like they’re superfluous to you — a smokescreen.

            “Solving by clues, you can’t get passed the third clue, but f has said the PATH would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

            It’s not that much of a stretch to conclude that when Forrest wrote “the one who did” he was referring to himself, not the future successful finder of the chest.

            “Been here since Feb. 2011.”

            Huh? If I’m not mistaken, Dal’s blog isn’t even that old.

            “Have way more than 4,000 hours. With those way more hours spent in logical thought instead of random guessing.”

            My apologies — I had no idea you were one of the 20 people who had heard of Forrest Fenn’s treasure five months after his memoir was published. And yet, here you are 7 years later and as chest-less as the newcomers. Who’s the one guessing? Are you sure all those hours have been spent profitably? In your recent response to JDA, you didn’t sound at all confident in your solution. Why is that? What steps are you missing that would allow you to proceed with confidence?

            “I throw out a couple hints and you have no clue.”

            As Lugnutz is fond of saying, why would I care what you think a hint is, particularly when I’m satisfied you don’t know the solution to WWWH?

            “The thing is, you never answer anything. You have never given your thought on answering anything, Great contribution.”

            I contribute plenty, even if you don’t recognize those contributions for what they are. I give searchers things to think about, anomalies to notice. I provide the quotes, the transcripts, book page numbers, Scrapbooks, links to where certain quotes can be found. I’ve said where to find Forrest’s word that is key, without which no one has a hope of determining WWWH (IMO, naturally). A few people have figured it out, and another is close, so there is evidence that the task is not impossible.

            But I’m certainly not going to divulge my answers to WWWH, canyon down, NFBTFTW, home of Brown, etc. *I* want to be the one who retrieves the chest and proves all my theories were correct — not get scooped by some lurker.

          • Zaphod,

            You explained in your last paragraph exactly why ALL these blogs and vlogs are useless and nothing more than entertainment. No one will discuss actual information, they may beat a bush or two… then again they may just beat a wasp nest for fun too, just to throw people in another direction.

            Happy hunting

          • And Kira –

            It wouldn’t matter if they did, because they are all wrong, right? One of them MAY be right, but what are the odds?

            The reason they don’t say where they would start or what they consider WWWH is they don’t want to KNOW that they are wrong.

            The irony is that CLEARLY the mob could do a better job than the solo.

            A chaser may identify WWWH, as many have, but then profoundly misunderstand how to proceed. Anpther may understand the poem and yet not no where to begin the search.

            IMO
            Lugnutz

          • Hi Kira: I don’t agree that the blogs/vlogs are without value. Yes, there is a lot of useless chatter, but there are also the occasional pearls of wisdom. Of course, it may be just as hard to pick which is which as it is to solve Forrest’s poem.

            Now, Lugnutz, I’m not sure why you even bother to read the blogs if you believe everyone’s ideas are wrong. My reasons for not blurting out WWWH are probably the same as all the others that have refrained from doing so: we know it’s right. What makes my certainty about WWWH less defensible than your absurd claim that failure to disclose it indicates a fear of being proved wrong? Logically, you cannot prove such a negative since you don’t know what the answer is.

            “The irony is that CLEARLY the mob could do a better job than the solo.”

            I completely disagree. The more people in your mob, the more mediocre your solutions will turn out to be. If you depended on mob mentality, that mob would be searching in Yellowstone or the Rio Grande. I know your theory is that each person in the mob would bring their own unique skills to the table, and that the collective intelligence of the whole would be greater than that of its brightest member. That’s the optimistic view; the more realistic view is that each person ALSO brings his or her preconceived biases and intransigence about certain parts of the puzzle. Because of this, the group would never agree on anything.

            It’s been said before, and I’m quite sure it’s true: if Forrest posted the correct solution here under an alias, most searchers would poo-poo it, claiming their own theories were much more elegant and believable. It’s the same psychology that caused people to continue searching for the golden hare of Masquerade for many months after it was reported found. I expect history will repeat itself with the Fenn Treasure…

            “Tens of thousands of letters from Masqueraders have convinced me that the human mind has an equal capacity for pattern-matching and self-deception. While some addicts were busy cooking the riddle, others were more single-mindedly continuing their own pursuit of the hare quite regardless of the news that it had been found. Their own theories had come to seem so convincing that no exterior evidence could refute them. These most determined of Masqueraders may grudgingly have accepted that a hare of some sort was dug up at Ampthill, but they believed there would be another hare, or a better solution, awaiting them at their favourite spot. Kit would expect them to continue undismayed by the much publicised diversion at Ampthill and would be looking forward to the day when he would greet them as the real discoverers of the real puzzle of Masquerade. Optimistic expeditions were still setting out, with shovels and maps, throughout the summer of 1982.”

          • Zap/lug to say there is zero good or helpful comments is a false statement, its in the general sense that these are not good tools to use. People are fairly helpful to point to unknown info but when it comes to discussing their data, then the claws come out.

            Mob mentality wont solve this, that kind of thinking is only good for science. There’s a joke in that, most wont get.

            To find those rare nuggets of insight vs tje many nuggets of fools insight… well its the eye of the beholder. Rigidity and being absolutley sure of oneself, which is different than confidence, will be searchers greatest threats.

          • Well, I think you are using the incorrect reference to a previous treasure hunt.

            The Golden Bug lines up with Fenn’s Indulgence a lot better. The apparent “directions” were meaningless. They obscured the true nature of the solution, a geographical location that bore little resemblance to the Bishop’s Hostel referenced in the story.

            Did you read Jenny’s piece on that from probably 2013? If not I can link it.

            Lugnutz

          • Hi Lugnutz: I believe that if/when the solution to Forrest’s Fenn’s treasure hunt is revealed, it will show startling parallels to Kit Williams’ Masquerade (the first armchair treasure hunt), not just in the psychology of the players but (more importantly) in the clue system.

          • Hey Zap –

            That’s really cool!

            I just think your wrong on that. Its not a bad idea. If you are figuring in the light and the equinox and all that, really cool.

            To me Fenn has directly said a lot of the ways you would figure out clues ala Masquerade are incorrect. No ciphers etc. Id’ wear my best close and go as a bum.

            Lugnutz

          • Hi Lugnutz: I don’t think equinoxes, or solstices, or sun angles, or even time of day will play any part in solving Forrest’s clues. Far too complicated for most people, and would be an obvious case of “specialized knowledge.”

            A few searchers favor some sort of special alignment of the sun shining through a mountain cirque for their blaze, or similar astronomical alignments, but such syzygys are ephemeral on the timescales that Forrest advertised for his poem. In other words, the clues would “break” in a few centuries, perhaps sooner depending on the precision.

            Btw, Masquerade was not a cipher. Kryptos is a cipher. Zodiac 408 is a cipher. The Beale Papers are a hoax cipher. Masquerade and Forrest’s poem are different from those.

          • Masquerade relied on the sun on the autumnal equinox to reveal the location of the golden thread, right?

          • Zap, yes, Dal’s blog has been up that long, and yes, you are merely an infant in the vast scheme of things. And all the other stuff, whatever.
            I knew that posting this to Seeker would fall on ears with the 9 clues solve sacred, and that they would have a problem seeing common sense. As you can see, I already had ATF’s to support, common sense to offer, and really already knew you and JDA, would say something. When your reading skills return, please feel free to reread what you have totally missed.
            The fact that it is possible that, I’ll even say, 1 clue cannot be solved correctly because f has not ever given that info is a wrench in your cogs. A deal breaker. So I understand.
            I’ve given my wwwh, it has a lot of info that can be found to support. If it didn’t, IT WOULDN’T BE MY WWWH.

            In your recent response to JDA, you didn’t sound at all confident in your solution. Why is that? What steps are you missing that would allow you to proceed with confidence?

            I’m totally confident and would put this solve up against anything.

            The rest of your blah….blah….blah tells me you are only hearing what you want to hear. I never said that you couldn’t solve any of the clues. But whatever. I’ve even posted which ones I think you can and the ones I think you can’t.
            The no chest thing, yes, I know a lot of ways that will not pan out. Yours being one of them.
            Just the fact you need a map to start gives me pause. But I guess you need to force fit the clues so you would need a map to start. Won’t do to well with the last clue, but oh well. In your way of solving, when you post it if ever, I could already almost 100% sure that the first clue will be a guess. Things that merry up with a spot on a map, but no real reason but to say another dart thrown. But who knows, maybe surprise me, I doubt it though. Lol, with all the ATF’s stating the possibility that some of the clues can’t be solved, and to see that you cannot accept that, also tells me someone is closed minded, and will not listen to common sense. A force fitter with the solve, and that’s fine, At least you stumbled upon the right state.

            Okay, the one thing you are right about, enough, I really don’t mean a lot of the sarcasm Zap, it’s all fun, and if you believe I think you are totally wrong, well then, you are totally wrong. And yes, I know you contribute, I’m sure there are some that are trying to get the thoughts you gave them out of their heads right now. So I’ll omit to this. If I’m wrong no worries, I still did solve the clues, in my mind, still need to follow them, and I just deciphered them incorrectly. Needs tweaking, (which by the way I don’t believe). But if I’m right, and you are wrong, and the truth be that at least ONE clue actually cannot be solved, then your whole solve is done. If you are good with hanging everything on that one thing, good luck, who knows. But really, instead of attacking, wouldn’t you want to know for sure, the possibility that the thought has merit, and should be seen as very possible. Since you like giving advice, here’s some. Treat it as possible and see if you can discount it. You would need a lot of info to do so because the couple of ATF’s that I’ve given you are tough to dispute. In fact, you probably can’t. So, instead, since you already have a spot, isn’t it worth looking into the possibility of something that might just blow it out of the water? Or not, hard to teach an old dog new tricks I guess.
            But enough, I won’t pick anymore. On to the next topic.

      • Seeker and Locolobo,
        Some of your recent comments and ideas have sparked new understanding, at least in the way I see things.

        “I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly.” f and
        “The most common mistake that I see searchers make is that they underestimate the importance of the first clue…”

        Forrest tells us we need to identify the starting point/ starting place, and we need to identify the first clue, but these may not necessarily be the same thing. In fact, I believe the 1st clue – Begin it where warm waters halt – is not the starting place. As Loco said, in order to be lead to the initial starting point, both the first and second clues are used together (an opinion I share). I believe clues 1 and 2 are both vitally important and are closely related – almost interwoven. Can’t have one without the other, so to speak. Like peanut butter and jelly, or like peas and carrots. It is the combo of clues 1 and 2 that supplies the starting place, imo.
        For a while I thought the 1st clue was something in stanza 1, until it came out in the New Zealand radio interview that Forrest said “Begin it where warm waters halt,” that’s the first clue… I now believe that the first stanza hints at the starting point derived from combining what I see as clue 1 and clue 2.

        • Wal thanks stone….and that comes from Seeker also. Heck, he ain’t got no manners. 🙂

          Interwoven is a good way to express it, as was ken’s use of ‘tandem’. Both work for me. Thanks to both of you.

          Oh, and Good Luck to Ya!!…….loco

          • LOL, I was assigned to hold open the door when manners were being past out. It was that or clapping erasers…cough cough. But I have morals… they’re low.. but I have them.
            Do schools even have chalkboards any more?

        • Zap. The 265th day of the year is September 22nd. Autumn Equinox usually falls on this day.

          • Hi John R: an interesting observation, but I can’t come up with a good reason why Forrest would emphasize that date. He certainly didn’t hide the chest on September 22nd. Maybe it’s the birthday of someone close to him (though I don’t think that would be helpful or relevant to us). Do you have any theories?

          • Zap –

            I cannot believe I am going to feed your mania but here goes.

            Romans 922 is yet another bible verse that sounds like it could be connected. I, as always, would call this coincidence with absolutely no connection whatsoever to our pursuit.

            R922 is the “What if” passage.

            What if God, wanting to show His wrath and to make His power known, endured with much longsuffering the vessels of wrath prepared for destruction,

            Lugnutz

          • I always wondered if there was something to this quote from Forrest from SB148 when he said “The autumnal equinox occurs on about the 24th of September” – It’s true but it only is on the 24th like every 3000 years or something like that…

          • Hey Zap. I dont have a theory yet, just figured out it is the Autumn Equinox yesterday. But also it leaves exactly 100 days till the end of the year. Will carry on with my research.

          • Sept 22: (1) 1862: preliminary Emancipation Proclamation signed by Pres. Lincoln = all slaves free as of following Jan. 1 (2) 1980: Iran & Iraq went to war.

          • Sean-
            Here’s how to find that info on this blog using the search mechanism on the right column.
            Type into that search mechanism “Happy Birthday Forrest” and the first result will give you the date.
            It is generally much more rewarding and hours faster to do your own research…

        • charlie and Zap,

          I agree with much of what both of you say, and perhaps it’s possible for you two to see eye to eye. Forrest has said to follow poem’s the 9 clues to the chest, and I take him at his word that this is possible. I think that’s the “hard” way to find the chest.

          The “easy” way is to do what charlie advises, which is to “solve” the poem to a spot and then the clues will reveal themselves as being the correct path to that spot. I say it’s “easy” only because once it’s revealed to the world how to solve the poem, everyone will say, “Why didn’t I think of that!?”

          I further believe that there is a way to locate the spot without clue locations because some clue locations align with cultural landscape features that FF wouldn’t expect to exist in a century or a millennia.

          charlie is right — the poem alone does not state which WWWH is correct, or identify any other clue location. But FF has mentioned it’s like baking a cake in that leaving out ingredients won’t work. So if you’ve correctly narrowed down WWWH to a manageable list, then look around those locations for a HoB, and then “no place for the meek” and so on, it becomes possible to identify the search area. So contrary to charlie, the poem — read as a whole — does allow one to solve clues. The book also provides very strong indications that the right search area is indeed correct once you’ve found it. After all, there’s a reason a FF published his poem in his memoir rather than by itself.

          charlie, I do know the significance of Indiana Jones, Blaze, flutterBy, Ford, etc. In fact, your user name itself could go on this list. But alas, this knowledge, and much more similar, has not brought me past “water high” when BOTG.

          At last, all the above is IMO.

    • Loco…Really good read and seems pretty much in line with “how”. The word “contiguous” helped me quite some time ago. The relationship with the word “proximate” takes this a step further if one lets it sink in fully. I believe this line of thinking helps define the mechanics involved…
      I believe 1st and 2nd(in tandem) will lead to 3rd…which I believe is the actual start point.

      • Loco… The word tandem also applies further along in thought…”string” might be a better word. 2 and 1 together which then can help with 3…and so on.
        Contiguous…touching, bordering each other could help define more precisely… orientation to each.
        Seeker…were you that guy holding the paper to the chalkboard w/your nose?

  2. I have researched, but have not found an answer to this question. Hoping someone can point me to anywhere that this was asked and answered: We know the treasure chest is in MT, WY, CO or NM. But, does that rule out the idea that WWWH could be in a different state?

    • Hi Julie — your question has been posed before, but it is probably not an easy thing to look up. The answer is, no: WWWH does NOT have to be in one of those four states. It doesn’t even have to be in the United States. Technically speaking, none of the clues is required to be in those four states, though I think most would agree that that is highly improbable.

      • Thank you. I am one of those who believes that most of the clues are within a near distance of one another (say, approximately 10 miles.) But I have found one intriguing WWWH location that falls outside the 4 states.

        I ask because I have a solve (all contained within the 4 states) but I continue to test myself to see if I can come up with another, more elegant solve.

      • Hi Julie: good for you that you continue to assess alternatives. That’s an excellent way to measure the quality of your front-runner. If you can find nothing that even comes close to measuring up, that’s obviously a good sign.

        Many searchers have posted stories of BOTG trips where they were extremely confident, yet obviously came up short. And many related that they had their best ideas on the long drive and/or flight home. Isn’t it interesting, psychologically, that those ideas never entered their minds prior to the trip? It suggests that once a certain level of target focus is reached, the ability to dispassionately consider alternatives is lost until the front-runner is disproved.

    • Julie,

      I don’t believe F has or has not said that. I could be reasonable to think that, heck most of the poem could be out of the boundaries of the 4 states. Only the treasure is most definitely in those boundaries. It very well could be close to within.

      Just saying IMO

      • Thanks. Yes, I could never find a direct question. I assumed from what I did find, only the TC for certain is within the four states.

      • That’s an interesting thought I never considered. I once has a solve that made a sizeable jump from NM to one of the other 3 states. That didn’t work out. I mess up a lot. I once went looking for Lewis and Clark and ended up at Dairy Queen. I didn’t mind that so much.

        • Lori,

          I imagine your Blizzard was more enjoyable than the ones Louis and Clark experienced while crossing the Rocky Mountains north of Santa Fe.

          • …or Fremont’s disastrous foray into the LaGaritas in the winter of 1848. Some folk ended up eating other folk in that ordeal. Fremont lit out for Cali to avoid the ruckous and those others that survived were on their own to find their way home. One member of the party, a fellow known as Carver (fitting), was seen by some Utes heading east across the San Luis Valley , on foot, with a severed human leg over his shoulder. Just in case I suppose. The Utes thought it best to leave him to his journey. The American West was a rough place, in its infancy.

    • Julie—-

      WWWH could be anywhere IMO. I have one solve that outside WWWH in Oklahoma. I like your question.

      • Not “outside”– I actually typed “that puts”. I really hate auto correct.

      • I am not certain what you are asking, is your question how long I have been trying to solve? If so, the answer is since mid-December 2017, when I watched a wacky youtube video of some random people who decided to go look for the chest (without any clear thought or plan), and first learned of the thrill of the chase. Where have I been for 7 years? Working, raising kids.

        FF said that maybe fresh eyes would have a chance. I certainly see a lot of people over-complicating things, and getting distracted. Doesn’t mean I really have a clue if I am right, but I have enough confidence to go BOTG later this year.

        Best of luck to everyone.

        • Julie – Welcome to the chase. Good to have “new eyes” – Don’t mind some of us old geezers – we do not bite, unless asked to do so 🙂 JDA

  3. You can only find the home of the brown if you are boots on the ground. You will see it with your own eyes and figure it out. Not far but too far to walk is not a directional clue. Disregard that clue. Home of the brown is not brown trout or the home of a old Rangers home. Capitalized B as in brown is very important. So is Home of Brown.
    Knowing the second clue can narrow down your search. I do not know the first clue where warm Waters halt. I am just trying to give a hint to start your search season for the treasure. So far this blog is not giving up too much information or hints. I don’t want to give up my hints and clues either. But someone has to leak out a little bit of information

    • But dogbone, how are you going to put BOTG to find your home of Brown if you freely admit you don’t have WWWH? Forrest says you should stay home and play Canasta under that scenario. More recently, he said this: “If you don’t know where the first clue is, you might as well stay home because you’re not … you’re not going to find the treasure chest.” Summary: if you don’t have WWWH, you’ve got nothing.

  4. here are my thoughts on the nine clues…I think if you took a survey of searchers, some would say they have a tough time identifying nine clues and others would say they have identified more than nine clues…most, if not everyone, seems to be focused on nine clues because ff has referenced nine clues…he has also said to begin it WWWH…while perhaps logical, there is a whole stanza that comes before “begin”…if, as ff has said (at least as far as I can recall), that you could give the poem to a child and (s)he will figure it out, why is that?…if I had to hazard a guess, I would say it’s because children don’t have all the filters that adults have — they haven’t had the extent of life experiences that adults have had and, perhaps more importantly, they ain’t listenin’ to ff…so I think it is worthwhile considering whether it is best to just erase your mental hard drive, so to speak, and forget EVERYTHING ff has said and focus on the poem with a fresh perspective, get yourself a map(s) or google maps, and analyze the poem methodically…if WWWH is where you start, consider the possibilities…then one by one, see if each possibility fits with the rest of the clues…if it doesn’t, maybe you should consider moving on to your next possible WWWH…when you think you’ve finally identified a WWWH that fits nicely with all the clues, then I suggest going through the book to see if there are any hints that confirm or discount your solve…if confirmatory, maybe you are on your way to finding the chest…if not, maybe you should consider starting over again with yet another WWWH…just my humble opinion, so please don’t go beatin’ me up about it…

    • Won’t beat you up. Just, how do you know what a clue is? Remember, you won’t know until you have the chest. So, solving the poem, not the clues, seems to be in order. Plus, f has not given us the information we would need to solve some of the clues. Really leads to only one way to consider. Solve the poem. Forget the map for now, it will only distract you. Find a way to solve the poem. Clues are last on the list. IMO.

  5. If anyone will do so, I’m interested in what each of you considers the 2nd clue.

    Is it

    Take it in the canyon down
    Canyon down
    Not fae but too far to walk
    Too far to walk
    Put in below the home of Brown
    Put in below
    Home of brown

    Some other specific combo?

    Lugnutz

    • Lugnutz: I’ll happily chime in. Your first option. And as you know, I would do so in a car.

      • Zap –

        And you take that literally right? You drive “down” a “canyon” is that right?

        So then Canyon Down is not the clue from your point of view, would that also be correct.

        I am asking because two of the possibilities for me are that CD refers to a place on the map, in the manner that you like BTFTW. OR the other thing, the name of a place in Montana is contained in those two words and I’m looking for opinions.

        Canyon Down
        C o n d o n

        Lugnutz

      • Hi Lugnutz: let’s just say I’m not walking until after putting in below the home of Brown. I don’t really make a distinction between “canyon down” being the clue or the full line. To me it’s just a direction. I could even entertain Geoff Idaho’s parsing of the clues that poem lines 5 and 6 are all a single clue (i.e. starting point plus direction of motion). However, I lean more toward it being its own clue, because I feel its execution is pointing me toward the chest (at least along Forrest’s architected route), and Forrest did say “a clue will point you toward the treasure chest” (Richard Eeds 5/29/2015).

        But I understand your alternative approaches: non-literal wordplay with “canyon down” or that “canyon down” might represent a specific place as opposed to a path/direction. All good ideas worth exploring, and approaches that might bear fruit with other words/phrases in the poem.

        • Zap –

          I don’t think there are directions in the poem.

          Have I missed anything from Fenn about following directions? Has he ever said something along the lines of: The poem tells you what to do.

          Or has it always referred only to places?

          Lugnutz

        • Hi Lugnutz – to answer your question, perhaps you have indeed missed a quote from Forrest about directions. This is from Mysterious Writings last May:

          “I’ve read your wonderful books and they didn’t help me one iota. The poem with your precious 9 clues is ambiguous, which means absolutely worthless in my opinion. I don’t think the bronze box can be found using the information that is currently available. I have arm chaired this thing to death. Why don’t you give me something I can chew on? Thanks for nothing, Outta Here”

          Forrest’s reply: “Well mr. Outta There, I will give you something to chomp on. Stop arm chairing that thing to death and get out in the trees where the “box” is, but before you go, look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions. f”

          • Ambiguous, could me directions as opposed to instructions.

            north south east west

            Anything else?

            I will try Tarry Scant too

          • The only other quote of which I’m aware that suggests the poem’s clues contain directional instructions is this one:

            “… a clue will point you toward the treasure chest, and a hint will just help you with the clues, if you can understand that.”

            I don’t think there are explicit, cardinal directions hidden within the poem. Instead, I believe certain directions are implied by the solutions to the clues (e.g. “canyon down” sounds like a specific direction relative to WWWH, “below the home of Brown” sounds like a direction relative to home of Brown’s location, “There’ll be no paddle up your creek” sounds like a directional instruction (perhaps an anti-direction), and of course “Look quickly down” sure sounds like an instruction for which way to look from the blaze.

            When you use a map, what does it tell you? If you can read it, it can tell you where you are, where you’re going, and how to get there. Forrest said the poem is a map, so that strongly influences my interpretations of the clues.

          • Where we differ Zap is that I don’t take those lines literally. I see them as clues to a geographic location. What sounds like direction is just negative space. You can’t suspend something in jello without the jello.

    • Canyon, (gulch) south. Road less travelled. No motorized vehicles. Next to the church off evergreen st and veterans memorial hwy. You know where I’m at.
      Now, if you asked how to solve for the second clue, I’d say you can’t.

      • Well that’s always the thing, isn’t it Charlie? I will solving clues or just choosing places?

        Lugnutz

    • Canyon Down.

      “It” was part of the first clue — Begin “it” WWWH. You have to know what “it” is before you can take it in the canyon down, or else you may be taking the wrong “it”.

    • In new book, sitting on top of Yellowstone map, is a brown hat (Stetson gallon, tin cup and horn

      Gallontin
      Gallatin
      Gallatin Custer National Forrest?

      Brave synonym online is gallant
      “If you are…brave and in…the wood”
      Gallant and in
      Gallatin Petrified Forrest?
      http://mthikes.com/gallatin-petrified-forest-interpretive-trail/

      Notice this is not too far from Joe Brown put in.
      Look at treasures sign on that website = treasures bold (treasures in bold type)
      Notice ‘big ball’ looking conglomerate.

      Se careful here. People have been mauled by bears.

      • All good info. I searched up there myself a few times back in 2014.

        There is sometimes deep snow on the ground in the shade up there until June. Also, the gate across the road opens on June 1. Going there in May adds four miles to the hike. I did that a couple of times also. If it is a bad winter that gate can remain closed for even longer.

        The trail going up to the pass crosses over Dry Creek without any bridge. It’s totally dry most of the year, but In May and June it’s a raging torrent so steep and deep that falling in would be a disaster or possibly death.

        Go in July and enjoy!

        • Also, in same area, What if wwwh is confluence of
          Sunlight creek
          And
          Soldier creek

          Two creeks are ‘waters’
          And sunlight is warm
          And soldiers do halt

          It’s serendipityesque
          wink

          • Copperhead –

            Many would agree that Gallatin Custer National Forrest is in contention.

            Lots of ground to cover up there.

            Continental Divide trail up there, etc.

            Have you considered that Stillwater county may be WWWH?

            Lugnutz

          • Hi Lugnuts
            I’m for any county in MT as long as it has the Gallatin Custer National Forrest in it plus 20 miles in every direction from its outer boundary as long as the elevation fits.

            There are 7 clues in so many places it’s daunting. Ambiguity is the strength of the poem.

      • Birdie –

        Thanks. So for you Take it in the canyon down does not contain a clue at all, is that correct?

        I half agree with you. Specifically I don’t believe there is any instruction to follow like Go Down. I also don’t believe there is a canyon to enter.

        I think this is the crux of what prevents folks from proceeding towards the TC. Many have stood within hundreds of feet and then traipsed down a canyon away from it.

        Lugnutz

        • Lug;

          You know the quote about discounting words in the poem I am sure. So, does it make sense to discount “Down” and “Canyon” – not to me. If they were not important, why even have this line. Sorry, your logic (if you are using any in this case) evades me – JDA

          • JD –

            I am not discounting the words.

            I use those words to identify a geographic location on the map.

            I do not take those words to be directions or instructions on how to move. To me that is THE single biggest problem and why searchers go right by etc etc.

            Do you understand what I am saying? You do not have to agree JD.

            Lugnutz

          • I see what you are saying. If “down” is not a direction, and you are using the words to identify geographical locations – Is there a “Down Canyon” or “Down Valley” or “Lower canyon or Valley” somewhere? Who knows – JDA

          • Marcelo;

            I am sure that there is no such place as WWWH Canyon – or else 10,000 people would be there every day of the week – JDA

          • JDA, you are applying the word “down” as a movement towards something with the word “in”.
            I think Lugz is using the words “take it in” to mean “look” more than movement.

            The word “and” can be used in both scenarios with different ideas. But here’s the thing… Begin it where wwh doesn’t seem to imply movement, right? it is a location. “And” combines the next portion to that location as; look down the canyon. [in one scenario]

            While both ideas could be correct in “plain” english… I think lugz is saying… this is the point where everyone seems to be having their mishap.
            This idea also give credence to, not needing a forcing of any distance or alternative travel… we might only need to “observe” what the next reference is about. [in part of what fenn has told us… Think, analyze, plan and “observe”, and use imagination.

            The idea of this line of thinking avoids the idea we ‘need’ 9 locations to stomp out only… So, now we are at “from there” in stanza 3 to mean; ‘from the location of wwh’, viewing hoB..is.. no place for the meek ~ @ wwh… and still no movement, yet.

            Some will argue with, little logic, that this is not how it could possibly unfold.
            They add unknown distances or later information from other sources, not available to searchers prior to 2013. Use alternative modes of transportation to make their solves usable. Or simply say, take it in, ‘must’ mean to ‘go into a canyon’. But leave out the idea that fenn would have to had done this twice on foot… hence the ‘need’ for a vehicle in many attempted solves, we’ve heard about.

            However, not one can explain… if several early searchers deciphered the first two clues and more have done so as of date… everyone of them… that “walked” past the chest or been within 500′ of it, would have had to “drive” the same exact route and distance to accomplish this… YET no one as Mentioned the next correct clue -???- at this point?
            That seems much too incredible to be true… There is no way that I can think of for the first two clues solvers not having the third clue… because they would have to have “distance” of travel and the “location” of the next clue[s]… right-?- for them to be able to “walk past anything else.

            Explain to me how they all did this without knowing what the “next clue” was, to get to that next clue its [location], and near the chest.

          • Seeker –

            I believe you are quite literally describing Zap’s problem. He will say he cannot see how the clues remain contiguous if DOWN is not a clue.

            I will use Grand Canyon Yellowstone as an example again. You are 500 feet from the canyon floor when you enter Uncle Tom’s Trail. You can only follow one way, down physically the steps, so there is no clue, no necessity. When you get to the bottom of the stairs you are 200 feet off the canyon floor. That’s not far but you cannot walk there.

            This is and example of how Fenn would think the chaser solved 2 clues. WWWH and NFBTFTW and are within 200 feet of the TC.

            I don’t mind using this example because of course nobody thinks the TC is there.

            Lugnutz

          • Seeker;

            You said that Lug may be using “and take it in” as view rather than a movement.

            For that one portion of a sentence, this may be a good interpretation – but what do we then do with the rest of the sentence – “Not far, but too far to walk”? From our wwwh location can we view a canyon that is “not far (long) but too far to walk?” I guess that it is possible, but hard for me to imagine.

            What about the next line then – “Put in below the home of Brown”? We are standing at wwwh, looking down a very long canyon that is “too far to walk”, and we are then asked to “Put in, below the home of Brown.” How can we “put in” visually? sorry, I don’t see how this works. Even IF we could put in (Rest our gaze – stop searching line of thought) BELOW the hoB. Not only are we asked to look down a LONG canyon that is too far to walk, we are then asked to identify a mystical hoB, identify it, and then stop our gaze just past it – and THEN – “From there, it is no place for the meek.” – we are asked to look even farther down the canyon – past the hoB to another mystical place that the meek fear to enter – getting pretty darned fuzzy for these old eyes.

            Where does the “Lookin'” end – No paddle creek? Heavy Loads place? Water High place? Blaze Place?
            Now that would be a LONG – L O N G canyon – 🙂 Just askin’ – Where is the point that you stop “lookin'” and start walkin’? JDA

          • JDA

            Perhaps when you take in the view at the wwwh spot, and you are looking in tje correct direct, you will see hob. From there its no place for the meek as you need to get over to the spot below hob.

          • Kira –

            That’s a good way to think about it. Get those creative juices flowing.

            Lugnutz

          • JD –

            The Seeker and I have explained this previously. Fenn could be describing the Waters from a vantage point.

            The waters halt and take it down the canyon and the waters put in below Brown.

            You see? Not the searcher, the waters being described.

            You don’t have to go in for this sort of a thing. We are just asking if you understand the possibility.

            Lugnutz

          • Hi JDA – Just a little teasing… because I like how logical you are! 😉

            “Don’t Let logic distract you from the poem”

            “I said in my book that the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination.”

            “I think kids may have an advantage. Don’t expect me to explain that.”

          • JDA,
            Your asking me to go through the entire poem with scenarios, for or against, each idea… Goofy would nuke me just for the amount of data space I would need use up.

            The idea is, attempting to figure out how everyone is stumped, don’t know clues, even when on site… and proceeded incorrectly. What we know from many of the ATF comments is… they moved.

            But some of your inquiries… mainly stanza 3 and beyond… I gave an example of “from there” to mean that vantage point…
            Look at it this way… fenn never has given the “idea” that “no place for the meek” means “all” searchers. It could simply mean this view, overlook, vantage point, would make “some” meekish types a bit squeamish. Maybe the fear of height [acrophobia, line of thinking ]. Which at some/different heights many of us might have anxiety about.

            Remember… “No place for the “meek”… using the common usage… does not say “all” which it seem many think it should [ at least in the solves chatter i have read about ].
            That alone could cause many to think they need; force some place to match to a map, that would scare the crap out of everyone..lol

            But I’ll add… “Put in” can be different other than the idea of the nautical meaning… which by the way… can mean “stay or a stay”… look that up, if you like.
            Even in that case, the poem could be telling us “stay” below the home Brown.
            LOL… stay below and view in, doesn’t give us any movement, right? and there is no real reason to think that hoB is a clue that wwwh puts in at and the canyon we desire, to be at… out of all the possibilities in the RM’s… give us the correct location of the correct WWH or nailing it down idea.
            Thus making the comment; if you know what hoB is, why be concerned about WWH…hoB is where WWH… in that scenario… it’s all about perception. HoB is home to not only the chest idea, abut all the clues, line of thinking. IF we knew that… we would go right to the chest, right??

            But you still haven’t explained how all the searcher could have know how far to drive, hop skip and jump away from wwwh… to get to a same location and the same distance AND not know of that location as a clue to it’s reference… That is impossible. Especially when fenn has been know to say [ for years, prior to the four clue comment ] no one has given him the clues in the correct order past the first two…

            So, again, how did anyone drive the exact same distance as anyone else, to the exact same location [and past by all the clues and the chest] if they didn’t “know” what that distance was, and where the next location was?

            In either case… something was viewed “at” wwwh for either scenario to be possible… movement vs. stay put.

            This was my second post to you, and one to birdie as well. So I’ll stop there, unless to can explain my inquiry about the distance and the next clue/location as I presented.

          • Seeker;

            So, if I follow you, you are at wwwh and you view down the canyon to hoB.

            You say that “from there” is another view point. In order to view from hoB, I have to get to hoB don’t I? – thus travel – after viewing. You say that “put In” can mean to “stay” – so I “stay” at hoB, and view the “Meek Place”

            If I “stay” at the meek place, how can the “end” be ever drawing nigh? If I “stay” at hoB, how will I ever get to the no paddle creek, HL or WH – and the Blaze? Just askin. I do not see it as possible – JDA

          • Lug;

            Seeker may have been describing it as the water’s viewpoint, and that is fine. It is a searcher who will find the treasure, not the water though.

            Seeker then said that “put in” can mean “stay” so either the water or the seeker has to “stay” at hoB. If this is the case, how does one ever get to the blaze? IF there is a logical explanation, I am more than willing to listen – either from you or Seeker – Just askin’ questions. JDA

          • Speaking of Goofy(seeker, upthread)….where is he??? He been AWOC(absent w/o comment) for 3 or 4 months!!

            Dal, everything OK with the Old_Guy?? I kinda miss him……

          • JDA, Um err….

            Lugz comment; ‘The Seeker and I have explained this previously. Fenn could be describing **the Waters ‘from’ a vantage point.’**

            Your response; ‘Seeker may have been describing **it as the water’s viewpoint,** and that is fine. It is a searcher who will find the treasure, not the water though.’

            Nope! it’s ‘the searcher’ who is the observer, not the water.

            I can see you’re misunderstanding of what was actually explained in the scenarios… It’s not the “water’s view” it is the “searcher’s” view at WWH.

            If you’re stuck on stomping mode only, you’ll not understand this.
            That is what I think Lugz might be saying…. the failure from this point where searchers have been, and still arrive at, might be… “they left the poem”

          • Seeker- If what you say in your last post – It is the searcher’s view, and I did not understand Lug (as usual) them my posts at 10:42, 11:30 and 12:42 are still valid – I think – but I am confused most of the time, so it may not make any difference – and I probably still do not understand (and probably never will) 🙂 JDA

        • Lugnuts,
          I believe once you’ve discovered WWWH, the following of canyon down is logical & direct. You don’t need that line in the poem, down is the only option.
          -B

          • What is down, birdie?
            ~A movement?
            ~A view?
            ~A map direction [NSEW overall]… I mean, IF wwwh happens to be in the center area of said canyon… is anything really obvious for “down”?
            ~Only an elevation factor? and if so, what is the elevation from one point to the other? IF the answer is; we would know by the next clue, then, that answer would be questionable, right? That would mean we would have to “know” the answer/clue.. for anyone to be, eventually, within a near 500′ from the chest while walking by remaining clues.

            Maybe i’m missing the obvious part?

          • Hi Birdie: I hope you don’t search in Montana, otherwise our keywords, WWWHs and canyons down may be the same. I theorize this because of these statements by you:

            1. “As long as you don’t know the key word, you are wasting your time.”
            2. “My keyword is not a word in the poem but I did get the keyword from the poem.”

            and now

            3. “I believe once you’ve discovered WWWH, the following of canyon down is logical & direct. You don’t need that line in the poem, down is the only option.”

            Even though you say you don’t need the word “down,” don’t you still need canyon? Without the canyon instruction, the direction of travel is indeterminate. You might be able to guess which way to go if you are clever and solve NF, BTFTW, but then the clues wouldn’t be contiguous.

          • Birdie –

            That is a good description of what may be involved.

            You might even get Zap to agree.

            And for good reason. It moves the end from Blaze to Cease.

            Lugnutz

  6. Right now I am fond of the upper Madison River solve. I just don’t have a blaze.
    Start at the headwaters of the Madison where the Firehole and Gibbon meet. Then down to holes three, two, and one. There are various challenges at each one. No place for the meek, no paddle, heavy loads, water high. then out to Bakers Hole. And then on to the Madison arm of Hebgen Lake. Somewhere in that area is a tree that grabbed lures from FF’s line. A short way up is a spot with a view under a tree. I am guessing on Horse Butte.

    • I have a similar solve in the making right now. I’m just going through the motions of guessing and checking whether my crackpot ideas actually fit the poem. I’m thinking that tributaries might have something to do with the solve.

      • I am sure anyone using the Madison Junction as a WWH will ignore this:

        If there are many places WWH and most are N of Santa Fe, this would suggest that WWH is a generic idea. Two warm rivers meeting and then beginning a new river (i.e. change of names) is very specific to the point that I don’t think there are many N of SF and also some not N of SF.

  7. Hey guys to address a few of the thoughts presented here in the last few days:

    I’d like to remind people that Forrest sometimes misspells words intentionally because it adds meaning for him. The most known is “knowlege.”

    This is important because he also misspelled “proximaty” in the Jenny Kile Q&A:
    “When I am in the mountains or in the desert, the last place I want to be is on a trail…..There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty to where I hid the treasure”

    Also this is a classic Forrest Fennism since he adds 2 qualifiers to the misspelled; proximity: “very” “close.”

    Relative to the search Forrest has used the word “close” in terms of those who have come with in 200 feet. So using this as a loose thumb rule, we can conclude that “very close” is less than 200 feet, by Forrest thinking…

    Now as to the various statements regarding how much information a searcher needs to correctly identify the 1st clue.

    On the Forum and for the sake of a clear discussion on this topic, I would suggest some definitions would be necessary. Here is the clearest reason why;
    “Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

    We first have to define what we mean by; “know the first clue” or “identify WWWH” or know what “Begin it where warm waters halt means.”

    There seems to be a spectrum in understanding for “knowing” the first clue.

    And BTW, does Toby Younis frequent this site because it seems his Gypsy Kiss Vlog seems lately to be paralleling some of the hot topics on HOD and I was wondering if there is some cross pollination going on???

    Thanks,

    GCG

    • Toby does seem to follow the hot topics from here. Of course…he would probably say that it is the other way around!

    • GCG,
      While we’re on the subject of word usages…
      “Until someone finds the treasure they will ‘not know’ for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”
      “The most common mistake that I see searchers make is that they ‘underestimate the importance of the first clue…”
      And the well known; “if you don’t have the first clue ‘nailed down’….comment… ‘stay home”

      LOL What’s the difference in “knowing” to “Nailed down”??

      It does seem that we should have a very good understanding of the first clue… but “knowing” is absolute. Its kinda like a theory that works on paper, but needs to be proven in the lab, idea. Common sense say… if you don’t really have a grip on that first clue… you don’t have anything… even if its “reference” is deciphered.

      This also has been reasonably shown by those who have deciphered the first couple clue ‘references’ but didn’t know it, or the other remaining clues, or locating the chest, while on site.
      Personally the “knowing” comment has less affect on me than the “underestimate the importance of the first clue” comment.
      Knowing, imo is more like a completion of the task that proves the entire theory correct… but, not “dwelling enough on the first clues” is the Achilles Heel. What is missing-?- in having the “certainty of the location beforehand” for that path we all are looking for?

      As far as other blogs having the same conversations? lol Many searchers swim from pond to pond talking about what was talk about. Hence the problem with the lack of imagination.

      • Seeker…for what it’s worth, Loco’s write up on the mechanics of how the initial two clues work together seems to fall in line with the ATF’s and where/how early searchers came close. I say this, generally, disregarding any preconceived ideas about distance or searchers “knowing” they had figured the first two clues. This thought includes not using any debatable method(Phil’s Q) to determine the first clue.
        If we step back in time before all of the many interviews, SBs, MW Qs, etc. and just imagine the first searchers that got close…and then think about HOW that could be. No TFTW book yet, so that was not a help either. There was a lot of discussion here still debating about what the first clue even was…so that not having been cemented down yet was not a deciding factor either. Also, there was a ton of heated talks about the poem only(poem purist) vs. poem and book with no true bearing what was right/wrong in that dept.
        Having said all that…it is conceivable that those early(close encounter) searchers took the basic knowledge of, in the Rocky Mtns. north of Santa Fe, read the poem(and maybe TTOTC), looked at a map and decided on a place where they thought was a possible WWH(by their definition) that had a canyon down…and maybe some other possibilities for later clues…and ran with it. Sounds pretty simple…but it is quite possible that is pretty close to how that went down.
        By the way…since my reboot mid year last….I have found it quite useful to jot down possible(without counting) clue locations in relation to a map scenario based on where I believe wwh is. Another simple exercise while doodling with that map plotting has provided me with a possible explanation how a searcher could potentially be “certain beforehand”. All just speculation…

        • It is probably true…and taking that further…the next clue ties to the first…and then the third ties to the preceding two, and so on.
          Each depending on the preceding.

        • Disagree, for debate purpose of both side… lol big surprise there, huh?

          The simple thought of not bothering with the other clues and only thinking about the first clues as ‘not’ depending on later clues, only allows us to think the first clues is nothing more than a starting point.
          IF that is the case… it just became a dart tossing challenge and/or the book must surrender ‘the answer’ to WWH. However, we have many comments from fenn that seem to imply just the opposite.

          IMO fenn never said later clues would not help with earlier clues… I think, he implied… we can’t simply skip to later clues on a hunch… example the blaze.
          It’s one thing to decipher a clue’s reference… it’s another to nail that puppy down. For example;
          IF WWH was to refer to a waterfall, you need the correct canyon to know which waterfall out of the many. To understand which canyon you need [ in theory ] hoB etc etc. down the poem, to nail down a location of the correct waterfall or otherwise, your throwing darts at a map.

          The question is… how do they all connect?

          • Seeker…the clues all connect in the poem.
            Combining your examples here and your other over in Odds+E’s it seems that you want a VAST area to work in a theory that does not particularly work out so well with your repeated mentioning of Fenn walking all the clues to hide the Chest. In your theory above…what then would be the starting point?
            Yesterday I posted a really old pic from an early failed search. While sitting at that location and thinking about things it dawned on me that a bird’s eye/vista type viewing may be possible. That really only seems to apply…if the searcher is already on site. In your scenario…Canada to US etc. how does that pan out?
            Not saying I discount it entirely…but I would have to believe that things need to be on a smaller scale(not discounting “big picture idea”).
            Further…what’s wrong with using info from the first stanza to sift out pertinent info leading to a wwh? And…using later info as well…from the poem?

          • Forrest said three things: (paraphrasing)

            1 The researchers do not get enough time “in the first” clue.

            2 Those who do not have the first clue have “nothing”.

            3 Researchers “overcomplicate” the solution.

            IMO – In my understanding the first clue has some unique feature that defines it. It remains to know which …

          • Seeker,
            IMO, History, just like everything else in time.
            -B
            P.s. Don’t hold me to that answer, it’s 5am & no coffee yet!

          • Seeker, what if the first clue is not dependent of other clues? Some have solved the first and second but went past the others, left the poem. The importance of nailing the first clue, not dwelling enough on it, preoccupied with other clues…

            Could it be that more than one solve/understanding of that first clue exist and they need to be matched?

          • Oz,
            I would need a scenario of your thought.

            It seems you’re saying; there could be many different directions from point A to the last point [ not the hide, but it’s area ] But only one can get to directly to the exact spot?

            If that seems to be a fair analogy… Then imo, each clues is just as important as the next. This is where contiguous might come into play. The correct clues must incorporate/ connect with each other in such as way, that the alternative ways could not.
            Example a water route vs. dry route. Or a wood path vs. an open field path, line of thinking… While all the paths could bring you close to the area of the hide, only one brings you close enough to locate the hide.

            That to me sound like “you are here” the ‘restrooms’ are on the other side of the mall.. you could go through the food court or around past the pet shop, or you might have to go through Victoria’s secrets if you want to find out the true secret ware.

            I guess that could work… and why no one can not get closer then those two, umm clues. When we going?

          • Seek,

            I’m not certain of a scenario, but it goes back to an attempt to merge some of the ATF comments regarding the first clue. I mean ff keeps saying not dwelling enough on that first clue so why do we need to understand the second to know the first? I don’t think we can assume that the second clue will corroborate the first and so on. F has never said that right.

            So does is it ‘nailing down’ refers to finding the right spot on the map, perhaps the starting location, or is it more like nail down what that clue means or translates to?

          • Ken,
            That particular scenario wouldn’t work the view idea.
            I can read the poem many ways… including just find wwwh and stomp out 9 individual clue reference.
            I can read it as a vast distance that lead to a location.
            I can read it as, hiking to the clues location and all the clues are within a 1000′ feet or even the same thing.
            I have even read the poem over a time period involving 1000′ of years.
            I can read the comments ‘know where to start” and “need to start at the beginning” as the same idea and different to each other.

            With that said, I also use the check and balance idea of the ATF to see how most if not all those comments ring true with each idea. LOL I’m not here to tell anyone what is correct or what is not… I simply attempt to see how any theory can be dissected and argue points for or against.
            You asked what’s wrong with using the first stanza… I don’t see any reasonable idea we can’t.
            I mean, there is a lot of info in that stanza. And there is a lot of ~ why did he do that, ideas.
            Example; why does the poem start with “As I have” vs. later using “I’ve done it”? Why say “in there” and not simply say ‘gone a lone there’ What the heck is riches and why are they new and old and why would he hint at them? Who is I throughout the poem… I mean, why would he say he already went and then later ask “why must I go and leave…” It’s a bit redundant, right? We know why he didn’t stay as originally planned… and other qualities about that stanza.

            If all anyone is going to do is, look at 9 lines… what a waste of 1/2 a poem, right? yet we are told basically the opposite… every word deliberate, risky to discount any word, spend well more than a decade to get it just right… So I automatically ask; why are the clues seemingly in three stanzas? There must be a reason he wanted them where he placed them… To me this is analyzing the poem, to others it’s over complicating. Oh well… personally I think many oversimplify the work he put into this.

      • Seeker,

        I like your analogy of thinking of WWWH possibilities as being similar to a solid theory versus say vague notions, which potentially have other vague elements of the poem at arbitrary distances…

        There is NO certainty in the latter approach. But a theory is comprised of a testable hypothesis. In the case of the poem this is easier said than done though – I understand this so here is an example:
        IF we hypothesis that Warm Waters is referring to the Golf of Mexico then how would you test this theory and what evidence can you find to support this theory inside the poem, Forrest interviews or the TToTC.

        Even though I love Doug’s write up, I would suggest that there is little evidence inside our reliable domains of material, to support a Golf of Mexico solution. Certainly not enough to nail down a specific starting point. And the designer says if you’ve figured it out, it will be nailed down!

        “If you think it’s not there then you are probably right.”

        So I’ll suggest that when you “stumble” on or “deduce” the correct solution, there will be little question in your mind. After you have figured out the solution to WWWH, you won’t be worried about this any longer, you will immediately know and your attention will turn to understanding how to use this in relationship to the next verses in the poem.

        So to rephrase Forrest quote from above; “If you have any doubt about your WWWH, then you probably do not have the correct WWWH.”

        The people who very early on got the first two clue correct were playing hunches or taking stabs based on minimal evidence, therefore they had NO CERTAINTY of their WWWH and with out that, they just moved on to their next uncertain solution and I’ll suggest this is what most searchers have and are doing…And this is why Forrest continued to say adamantly to spend more time on the 1st Clue because he knows – if you have figured it out then you’ll be sure of the clue’s solution, even though like the theory of Fission, we know it works but we aren’t completely sure of the quantum mechanics in the background.

        As a searcher progresses through the poem and its clues, more of its mechanics will be revealed, if you are solving it correctly…

        GCG

          • Yes JDA,

            This is how the poem has worked for me – and everything above is my experience and my opinions…

            However Zap has said something of a similar nature before; the general idea being, how can a serious searcher have different solves in all 4 states or in multiple different locations – the poem doesn’t work like this. Either you know the first clue or you don’t.

            I believe the thought process or the rational is correct, whether or not a person is deluded in the beliefs relative to their own solve.

            GCG

          • I agree with the point that the clues fit only one place, and not a dozen or more in different states.

            I have been at “MY” site for 28 months. I am confident that I am in the “right place”. I may not have yet figured out the EXACT spot, although I now feel that I am within a matter of feet.

            I have NEVER doubted that I am in the correct general area. Each search has narrowed the search area down.

            This year Forrest daid to “Simplify” – and I think I have, and am not on the correct path. We shall see.

            Good luck to Ya’ JDA

            P.S. Did you receive my emails?

        • GCG ~’And the designer says if you’ve figured it out, it will be nailed down!

          I understand what you’re saying… but the idea above is not correct, in fact, it has been proven wrong.

          fenn used words about the first two clue solvers as; “solved” “deciphered” “figured” “mentioned correctly” [I can only go by what fenn has said]
          And yet, none of them supposedly knew they did so… that is not nailing down anything, right -?- even if they figured what WWH refers to be [ example a waterfall ] That is a deciphered clue, but not a nailed down reason.
          To me that is oversimplify the poem… we’re missing something… even when on site and with at least two deciphered “references” [note; I place quotes around references for a reason] I think we’re missing why a clue; is a references… whether being a place or an action or a description, direction, instruction… I think we are missing the connection to the entire poem’s intent. [other than the obvious, finding the trove] Something that pulls it all together. IF so, later clues might help in understanding, nailing down wwwh, and not so much their particular reference as individual clues. Even though they are individual clue references.

          Other wise, fenn’s comments, they didn’t know they solved, deciphered etc. can not mean they nailed it/them down [ the first clue or even the first two, as of date ]. Regardless of all hypothetical scenarios of messing up the 3rd or later clues… not knowing, is not knowing something other than a clue’s references.

          If I said, go to the blue structure and take the dirt road down… The blue structure is now a house…do you know why I wanted you at a “house” -?- compared to a blue barn. You dismiss the house and now look for the next think I may have said. By doing so, you now dismiss how the later clues may explain the reason for “house” as a reference to that first clue. You’re missing the …overall connection… is what I’m attempting to explain. { in theory, of course } So, the only way to test this, or the first part of testing, is find the connection.

          Splitting an atom doesn’t explain the connection to why to split one in the first place… the math says we can even when we never even seen an atom at that time. It was the desired outcome we were looking for… energy. Then the next step in testing was, how to use that energy or what the initial purpose was.

          So why is it so important to “nail down” WWWH if we are already on site and solved its reference, and still screw up everything else? Without that thought, all we have is a spot and nothing contiguous in nature. That has failed many time over, right?

          I think fenn’s comment to “try and simplify the clues” was meant as… see the connections. Not so much to mean, make it easier. If it was easy anyone could do it…
          This is why I can see the following different than many;
          Follow; as understanding and not so much as stomping.
          Lead; as shown/idea and not so much as being lead by a leash.
          Straightforward; as in honest and not so much as, easy.

          So far, no one has seemed to “nail down” anything.

          IMO………………..

          • seeker.
            would you agree that you could nail down a painting?
            i opine that the first pass or layer of clues happens in an area less than 4sq.ft.
            please go alone into “mountain vista” oil on canvas by oldrich farsky. be imaginative and tell me if you see stanzas 2, 3, and 4 with exception of the deviation beginning “but…”
            SB182,
            poem words,
            and weekly words
            “theres a sky”
            clearly confim this
            anybody wanna see a picture of the marvel gaze?

            trust your gut…

          • how can anything liquid halt, in its true sense, except in photograph or painting?
            even stagnant water is not static

          • Seeker,

            You said, “I think fenn’s comment to “try and simplify the clues” was meant as… see the connections. Not so much to mean, make it easier. If it was easy anyone could do it…”

            I disagree with your statement, I personally believe that too many are over complicating the poem and over thinking what the poem says. In a large way the poem does lead searchers through the poem and the poem is truly a map.

            However the one true unknown is the blaze, as there is no description. WWWH is a description not so much as unknown as well as the rest of the clues except for the blaze. That is why some could have very well solved most of the clues prior to the blaze. From the blaze is where I feel most mess up and the remaining clues can’t be found.

            IMO

          • CharlieM,

            We have two examples [ and maybe a few more] of how we can think of complicated vs. simple might imply.

            Two comments; In part
            1. searcher “over complicate” by knowing about Latin, bible verses, head pressures, drones etc etc.
            Some follow up comments seem to imply the same; “Best Adjust” and “get back into the box”
            2. With the clues WWH and In the mountains N of SF… we over simplify the clues. and yet when on site with the first two clues “solved” “figured out” This falls down to a simple idea of not being able to read a map?

            These are short versions of the full quotes.
            My point is; fenn has given example of how simplifying and complicating seem to imply. BUT you said the poem is a map, right? No one can argue that… fenn stated as such.
            But fenn created ‘that’ map…. he didn’t use a map. {go ahead look it up}.

            So the idea isn’t as simple as we want it do be. We still need to understand how fenn created his blueprint [ what exactly was he making/creating ?], and not just copying it from a map.
            Other wise, LOL what we seem to have is; 100,000 plus folks who couldn’t ‘understand’ a hole in the ground, even if it was the size of Meteor Crater in AZ. while standing at it.
            Could it be [ in the example of the creator ] we would need to know why, how, the hole is there, or we do just need to see its a big hole and move on?

          • Seeker;

            I totally agree with the first part of your last paragraph. We (the searchers) need to know why, (and) how the hole is there… Just seeing it as a big hole will not be sufficient to solving the last riddle – finding Indulgence. JMHO – JDA

          • Seeker,

            F had to have a map in creating the poem, I believed he used different words to identify the places on a map. Sure he said he was familiar with the area because it was stored as memory.
            With my area, I’ve been there once using a map of sorts, now I can describe it and go to any place from memory in that area and use different words for directions and different words for places.

            Now its not all difficult to put something someplace, but difficult to find using different words that folks are not familiar with the description even for local folks that might be familiar under normal understanding.

            It’s like some saying the poem is a riddle, but may be its not at all. Even F admitted some of the places existed but was changed later. [from my memory]

            Originally F most certainly had to use a map of sorts before he created the poem. I don’t believe for one second he was completely familiar with the area which contains the hiding spot. I believe he used different words on a original map to describe places and directions to get there creating a different blue print.

            In order to hide something of good value, it should be a place that is completely out of character, otherwise it would be too easy.

            My line of thinking, it is easy to simplify.

            IMO

          • CharlieM;

            You seem to be contradicting yourself. First you say Forrest must have needed a map, and then you say you have been to your search area only once, and yet have it stored in your memory well enough that you do not need a map.

            It is my belief that Forrest went to his “Hidey Hole” area every summer for a number of years, on his way to, or from (or both) Yellowstone. He would have committed this area to memory LONG, LONG ago. Writing a poem that described a “Map” of this area would have been easy. Writing the original poem was the easy part, re-working the poem so that it became a “puzzle”, and not just a quickly solved poem, I perceive as the hard part. JMHO – JDA

          • JDA,

            I used a map to get to where I wanted to go the 1st time. Know that I’ve been there I don’t need a map. Just memory.

            Hope that helps.

          • LOL
            “Connection”
            Not a
            “Conception”
            Or maybe that is needed too.

    • Possibility ?
      Waters = creeks
      Sunlight = warm
      Soldiers halt

      confluence with TM basin’s soldier creek and sunlight creek =wwwh?

  8. I have posted this before…IMO:
    Clue 1 BIWWWHATIITCD
    (Both a specific location, and a vector)
    Clue 2 NFBTFTW
    (A vector plus a distance yields a specific location)
    So a searcher can mark these two locations on the map, and then look for the next couple of clues.
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  9. @ Zap – My apologies for associating the LGFI quote to you. With my blinders off I now see that you were quoting someone else who said that.

    With my apology out of the way, I thought I would chime in a bit on the rest of the avenues this subsection has branched off into:

    1) Not far, but too far to walk = I’ve said it before that a waterfall that has a sheer drop of 10 feet is not such a far/great distance, but trying to walk that sheer 10 feet is nigh impossible (remember, no special equipment needed, don’t go where a 79-80 year old couldn’t, etc.), hence, “Not far, but too far to walk”. Just a consideration as a possibility for interpreting this line as the distance the water is traveling is not great but impossible to walk.

    2) The 200 and 500 feet comments = if these distances were in feet of elevation, being 200 to 500 feet above or below the TC is virtually like being miles away. Personally, as i have said before, I like the idea that FF is alluding to elevation here, and lean towards they were below the TC simply (or not) because for FF to have such a “Fenndiferous” view of all those things he has stated he could see/smell if he were at the spot where the TC is hidden, I like the idea of being higher in elevation which would afford a better view. Ask yourself what kind of view would he have if he were in a cave, or the middle of a forest, etc. Still some type of view, for sure, but (IMO) not as panoramic as an elevated perch of some sort.

    3) The sounds like 3 or 4 to me quote from FF, IMO, was his way of not agreeing with the interviewer so as not to give away more specifics about the stanza they were discussing.

    Happy hunting all.

  10. I have been on the search for 7 years, Studied every bit of all the information on TTOTC. I have a hard time believing that all the clues and solves posted here refer to the exact words in the poem. Remember the poem is a puzzle! When its deciphered it will lead the searcher directly to the location…..IF you first know where to start. BGWWWH is not the starting location……Its the first clue after you know where to start. I would be interested in this discussion….Anyone?

    • I have said many times that the words “In the wood” tell the searcher exactly where to begin the search. There is a very obscure definition to these words that will lead the searcher to a specific geographical area in Wyoming – From there, it is not to difficult to follow the poem to the general area of where Indulgence is secreted.

      Without this understanding of what these words mean, it is all dart throwing and guessing – JMO – JDA

      • JDA – I also believe the words “in the wood” are important, but believe it’s more important to the end – rather than beginning. IMO

        • Covert One;

          I am not discounting its value in the end, but if you do not get the beginning correct, getting the end will be in the wrong place, won’t it? JDA

          • JDA – yes, of course but it seems “begin it” WWWH would be the critical piece for where to start IMO.

            Wish you the best in your search. Maybe we can compare notes this year in June at the gathering.

      • I agree with you JDA

        In order to have a destination I’d have to know where I was going first for sure , otherwise an entrance might be an exit…and a beginning might be after an arrival.

    • JDA: so your reading of Forrest’s answer to John was that he was only responding to the question about looking up words specifically in a Spanish-to-English dictionary. Or would you generalize his answer to mean any foreign language-to-English dictionary?

      “Hello Mr. Fenn, For those of us that do not speak a lick of Spanish, would a Spanish to English dictionary be helpful in our search for your treasure chest? Thanks, John”

      “You should not need to look any words up John. Good luck. f”

      • Zap;

        Your question is filled with hidden traps. So, let me answer as many as I can.

        1) The questioner asks, “…would a Spanish to English dictionary be helpful.” The poem is in English, so how would using a Spanish to English dictionary be of any help?

        2) Forrest’s answer, “You SHOULD not need to look any words up.” SHOULD is interesting, one SHOULD not need to look up any words,… (Unspoken) but a wise person will…

        3) Specific question asked re a need to use Spanish to English dictionary – Response is general in nature re ANY dictionary need to look up words – Why didn’t he answer the specific question? – Seems like he does this a lot doesn’t he? Was he wanting to make a general statement about looking up ANY words???
        I guess we will never know.

        So, Forrest has said, ““The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem, it looks like just simple WORDS there, but I guarantee you, I worked on that thing … I felt like an architect drawing that poem.” F

        and – ““There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – STUDY EVERY LINE< EVERY WORD. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f

        To me, these two quotes tell me that I need to pay very special attention to every WORD in the poem, and their meanings.

        This is just how I see it Zap. JDA

        • P.S. “One SHOULD not need…”
          One should not need to look up any words since there are no words in the poem that are not in common, every-day use BUT – there are deeper, unfamiliar, archaic or obscure definitions to many of these “common” words that SHOULD be considered, if one is to discover the meanings that I have embedded within these “common” words – JMO – JDA

        • I believe if a Wordsmith looks up a word or words in the dictionary, we should consider the same. I’ve found definitions of words that I thought were common, but after reading the multi definitions, I was surprised of the possibilities.

          • pd;

            I agree whole-heartedly. One should not move too QUICKLY through the poem.

            Why did I emphasize QUICKLY – look it up – JDA

      • Hi JDA: no hidden traps intended, and of course I’m well aware that looking up words is not just important to your solution, it’s essential. And by the same token, I know that you know I have a different interpretation: that no dictionaries of any kind are needed. I just choose to believe that if an obscure or archaic word definition plays an outsized role in cracking the poem, that that sort of runs afoul of the “no specialized knowledge” clause.

        It’s clear that you (and I’m sure many others) take the quote “study every line, every word” to mean research the meanings of words. But you’ll notice that Forrest never explicitly says that, and that interpretation is not the only one or even the most literal one. “Study” can also mean simply “look at” or “scrutinize.” How are words formed? What does an architect do? What does a child do when she is reading a word for the first time? You quoted Forrest yourself:

        “I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

        If you look up butterfly in a dictionary, I don’t think you’re going to find the word “flutterby” (unless it’s a dictionary of Spoonerisms). 😉

        Just a few ponderables for a Monday…

        • ’tis interesting that in your response against using a dictionary and meanings of words you gave two definitions of “study” – You also say, “No specialized knowledge needed” – and then use the word “spoonerisms” – which most people would not understand, and would have to go to a dictionary for that “Specialized knowledge 🙂

          And yes, an architect takes the common forms – circles, squares, polygons, triangles and utilizes them in uncommon ways to project something not seen before – kinda’ like word usage – take the old, and shape it into something new. It “looks” like just squares and circles, and triangles etc,- but something new and vibrant is created 🙂 JDA

        • JDA: fair enough, irony noted. 😉 But hopefully you got my intended takeaway. Words are *constructed* (architected) from letters, and that understanding or appreciation is all a searcher needs to crack Forrest’s poem in my opinion. That’s how a child looks at words. Adults forget how they learned to read, and instead try to be sophisticated looking for nuances, hidden meanings, and historical references. Simplify.

          • Zap,

            I agree with you about, “Adults forget how they learned to read, and instead try to be sophisticated looking for nuances, hidden meanings, and historical references.”

            I like that a lot, maybe, just maybe that is the main reason why the poem hasn’t been solved to date.

            Could it be true that most are relying to heavily on F’s ATF comments?

          • Zap;

            Just a thought. Forrest was an architect when he created the poem, or at least he felt like one.

            Your point of view, if I am correct, is that it is the abc’s that are important, not what words are made from those letters – Am I correct?

            If it is the abc’s that are important, why didn’t Forrest say that he felt like a steel worker, a lumber jack or a brick maker? These are the elements that make up the structure just like your abc’s aren’t they?

            Instead, he said that he felt like an architect – the guy that takes the disparate parts, and makes something new out of them. He takes common words and makes a poem out of them, a poem that holds hidden meaning.

            A single stone has no meaning. A single steel beam has no meaning etc.
            The individual letters of the poem have no meaning. Meaning is only found when those 26 elements (plus a bit of punctuation) are put together in recognizable form.How these “Words” are then assembled together give the “building” its persona.

            Just musing – JDA

          • Hello zaphod. A child looks at words by making the sounds of each letter. Also, they are generally taught one meaning of words, as well as, asked to use a dictionary. Do we not do the latter?

          • HI pdenver: “A child looks at words by making the sounds of each letter.” Allow me to interrupt you there and add: because LETTERS are the basic building blocks, and that is what they see when they read. Adults don’t see letters, they see words. If Forrest is playing letter-based games, it could explain why so few have solved any clues.

          • Hello zaphod. Some may look at the poem as such, but I’m not sure that he did it this way. Maybe I’m being stubborn in how I’m reading the poem.

          • Hi JDA: “Your point of view, if I am correct, is that it is the abc’s that are important, not what words are made from those letters – Am I correct?”

            You are close. It is the recognition that words are made up of letters, and different words can be made from manipulating and/or arranging those letters (butterfly/flutterby).

            “If it is the abc’s that are important, why didn’t Forrest say that he felt like a steel worker, a lumber jack or a brick maker? These are the elements that make up the structure just like your abc’s aren’t they?”

            Architects (and sculptor and engineers) do not follow rote, repetitive instructions. Architects design, manipulate, position, rearrange, and create original structures. Using the building blocks of letters and words, Forrest has used the presentation mechanism of a poem to deliver a riddle (in my opinion). So I put to you the hypothetical: IF (big if) this is what he has done, would you have spotted it so far?

          • JDA, Zap…This is another classic example of both sides having pretty strong points…as has been the case with most topics in the Chase. I would think that if some guy told me that he worked on a poem that he wanted me to understand…it would probably be smart to understand what the words could possibly mean.
            Fenn has said many times that he misuses(intentionally and not) words and punctuation and even says it kind of highlights his intended meaning. For example; knowledge.
            11/2/2013 Moby Dickens 47:25 mark
            ” They’re contiguous. I knew where I wanted to hide the treasure chest, so it was easy for me to put one foot down and then step on it to get to the next foot. So that’s what I did. But I changed it over-I don’t know how many times. I looked up the meaning of words.”
            He goes on to talk about the definition of the word “several” as an example of how we use words incorrectly without knowing the meaning.
            I’ve come to understand that I have not fully understood some words that are used in his poem…and find it quite interesting. I don’t think this is uncommon for a lot of folks…I also don’t believe I am going to bet the bank on digging too deep into any one word…
            Have a good one.

          • Ken,
            Oh, C’mon!… Are you saying “Plain English” is not so plainly understood???

            HA! Maybe we need to learn ‘Spanglish’

            “I looked up words and definitions and of words and changed them, went back and rebooted… it turn out exactly like I wanted.”

          • Seeker…I know, I’m ridiculous! HA
            One of the primary reasons I put that quote from Moby was that I found it interesting that the Q was a fairly simple one about the 9 clues…and he started by saying…”They’re contiguous…”. He then goes on to talk about looking up words. I will admit that MY understanding of the word “contiguous” was not close to being comprehensive. “Proximate”

          • Ken,

            Nice catch on “contiguous”. I’ve read the transcript many times and never focused on “contiguous”.
            Based on my dictionary, this tells me that the clues and TC are close together after put in below HOB. My guess is FF didn’t go very far from where he parked his car making the TC close if the clues are contiguous.
            Just my two cents.

          • Ken,
            contiguous is interesting… it was one reason for one of my theory of, hoB being represented of Canada’s symbol… and capitalizing B.

            Contiguous; bordering neighboring, touching… as well as all the states within the search area.

            Lets take it a step further… fenn, for different reasons has eliminated other states, two of which had the RM’s within them. He also eliminated areas in NM [we know the reasoning]. And there might even be suggestions, but not facts to; might not be on reservations, YSP, because of following the rules idea, etc etc depending on how one reads into the comments.

            Is there a reason fenn could not eliminate any more than he already has? Could he eliminate NM entirely if he felt he could have -?- or are the remaining states needed to be known? [ or any other of the four states for any reason ]

            My problem with this theory now is… why would fenn “follow the clues ‘when’ he hid the chest” I always like that old theory because it work having not only the stated contiguous, but all he many wwwh as well…
            It kinda fall with Loco’s idea that we will figure out wwwh when figure out for clue two for a starting point. It also seem to answer why fenn only mentioned “mountains N.of SF” because of wwh and also implying there might be something we need to know about the entire range that connects it all..

            LOL… maybe others/several are right… looking up words invokes the special knowledge clause [ no, not the` Claus, the other clause ] … ‘that no dictionaries of any kind are needed’

            Disclaimer; this post is full of it… Opinions I mean.

          • I understand exactly what FF is talking about. im just having trouble explaining to others what he means.
            Dal is no help whatsoever i wonder whos side he is on sometimes.

    • Bruce,
      I think that the starting point is specified before BIWWWH. If there are many WWWHs in the Rockies there must be some information that leads you to choose the right one.

      If your second sentence means that there are many parts of the poem that you shouldn’t take literally, I also agree. It is a puzzle, and what makes it so hard is that each piece needs to be solved differently. So that even if you’ve figured out the first two clues you still have a lot of work left to solve the remaining clues. All IMO of course.

      • Exactly JW … solve one sentence/clue, then solve the next with a different method of solve, and then the next, and the next. Maybe two or three have the same solve method, will see what works for each. Just rule out on each method what he said is not used, and compare each solve to hints etc, and see what works. Good luck … This is just my opinion of course.
        Safety first and always.

        Lyzeebella

        • I see a few that have very similar methods of solving but I consider them different methods since they’re not quite the same. Also instead of looking for hints to back up my solve I see redundancies within some clues that help with confirmation. For example there is one line (my favorite one) in the poem which to me says the same thing two different ways.

          • I have a few of those also. Also, did you notice, just my opinion, that Forest did demonstrate to us how to solve for a clue. He did this at the end of a scrapbook posting. When I read it I actually said “what?” to myself. It does work with several lines, but can’t get it to work on all of the lines. That is why I believe that there are different solves to different lines. The ones that it does work well with changes the whole meaning of the line without changing words … some it makes the meaning opposite.

            all the above is my opinion only

            Lyzeebella
            Safety First Always.

          • Lyzee,
            I haven’t spent much time with the scrapbooks so I don’t know which one you’re referring to. I see two examples in the book where he stated things in similar ways to how he presents the clues. I’m thinking those might be his hints.

  11. IMO Mr. F has already told (whispered ever so softly) us what WWWH refers to in general terms, but the searcher needs to find the specific spot.

    Pinatubocharlie

    • This is a re-post. Forgot to checked the boxes. Sorry.

      IMO Mr. F has already told (whispered ever so softly) us what WWWH refers to in general terms, but the searcher needs to find the specific spot.

      Pinatubocharlie

  12. What is the difference beyween “The Nine Clues…” and “the Nine Clues… Part XX”?

    • Kira;

      Where are you seeing “the Nine Clues Part XX”?

      We are currently on Nine clues…Eighty although Dal forgot to type in the “Eighty” Just curious where you are seeing the “Part XX” JDA

      • If you are using “XX” to denote any number – here is the answer. It started as Nine Clues…Part one. When that one filled up it was replaced by “Nine Clues…Part Two etc.

        Go to “Earcher’s Discussions – Click on “Nine Clues Archive” and you will see older threads. Go to bottom – click on more entries and go farther back in time. JDA

        • Maybe it’s just my email comment notice is being split up, I’ve been getting two seperate notices but looked like two diff threads

          • “The Nine Clues Seventy Nine just ended, and “Nine Clues…Eighty” just started, but as I said, Dal forgot to type in the “Eighty”, so it will appear as just “The Nine Clues…” JDA

          • No, youd have to see my notices.
            I see what was going on:
            78 closed on March 18
            79 closed on March 25
            There was just so many comments being made, it looked like 2 threads going at once.

  13. Why is it that counting the clues so important as one goes along in solving the poem? Is it to keep track of the clues so at the end lets say one has only 8 does that mean you missed one?

    I don’t believe F said to count as you progress through the poem. He simply said there 9.

    Just curious as to why this might have to happen.

    • I would suggest the following quote:
      “…if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure.”(4/5/17)
      IMO, searchers who leave out one or more clues risk having an incomplete map.
      Geoff
      “Have flashlight, will travel”

    • I guess my question does’t deserve an answer. Or is it I don’t deserve an answer? 🙂

    • It is not important to count the clues, in my opinion. Seems like it is something folks are doing to pass the time until BOTG. All we need is the correct “very special area”.

      I am counting days 🙂

      Franklin

    • CharlieM.
      Could 9, being in the book, be a hint to the clues… not so much a counting of the clue, but a type of guide or food for thought.
      It does seem reasonable that a hint would help with the clue[s] and we have a clue that stay; “but tarry scant…” 9 is a number and Tarry point [ scant potically] is a mathematical way to find a place using a map… I’ll add 9 point circle into the mix as well.
      While we are told no special knowldge is needed, does that special knowdlge come from training as the Q&A suggested… time in the service… or is schooling special knowldge?
      If you want someone to use 9 points / places / clue references, and know there will be nine contained in the poem… maybe 9 point circle is our job to understand how to get to the blazed / hide, by being wise [ knowledgeable ]… wise equates to knowledge and “found” that knowledge… IF.. we are told what knowledge is need.

      fenn said he had no expectations, in that answer, right? So maybe he gave us the tool as a clue, knowing many would not be expected to know it. But for a million plus in gold, the expectation would be to learn it.
      Difficult but not impossible…

    • CharlieM;

      When you start a marathon, you are told that the marathon is 26.2 (I think) miles beginning to end. If you did not know this, how could you gauge how well you are doing? How could you judge your output of energy compared to the total amount needed?

      For me, the same is true for this “race”. I know, at the on-set that there are nine clues. I am not told exactly what these nine clues are, but I can figure it out over time. Once I decide what “MY” nine clues are, I can go about solving them – one at a time. With each solved clue, the end gets closer – the goal slowly comes into view.

      If I did not set a goal for myself – solving the 9 clues – the last of which is supposed to be at Indulgence – How could I ever know when to expect a completed solve?

      Instead of running a marathon, I am running a nine mile (clue) race with myself. One mile (clue) down – eight to go.
      Two clues down – seven to go…YEA, at long last, the finish line is in sight. If I cross the finish line, and there is no tape across the track (no Indulgence) I will then know that I took a wrong turn somewhere along the cross-country path.

      I can go back to the starting line, and try again, or I can back-track to where I think I may have gone wrong, and try again from that point.

      “May the best man/woman win!” That is why “I” count clues.

      It helps know where I am in the race – JDA

      • P.S. “MY” 9 clues may not be the same 9 clues that Forrest had in mind, but if the first one, and the last one are correct, moving one mile marker slightly forward, back or to one side shouldn’t make that much difference. – All in the hypothetical of course – JDA

      • Nice analogy JD and so perhaps the pair of upcoming “articles” (intersteing choice of terminology) are setting the stage for a sprint race to the finish line vice a marathon.

        What concerns me is that I’m going out of the country for 2 weeks in mid-April and will be out of touch with the Chase for a significant portion of that time. So I sure hope he publishes them in next week or two at the latest so I can study them during the trip.

        Pinatubocharlie

        • It is unlikely imo that Forrest would try to prematurely end the hunt given his prior statements. He has stated in the past that he is indifferent to when it is solved.

          • MCB,

            I hear what you’re saying and aware of what he’s said in the past, however, his behavior in terms of SB posts, Q&A’s, etc., over the past year or so seems to indicate to me that this informational ramp-up is due to a desire to end this thing, either his, or maybe Peggy’s. Couple that with the title TTOTC and these 2 new “articles”, who knows. Maybe he actually does want to see a race.

            Anyway, I hope you’re right because I really don’t want this to end before I have an opportunity to fine tune my solve and check my area this summer.

            Take care………Pinatubocharlie

          • It will be very anti-climatic if he did anything to make it and more quickly. I happen to believe it will be solved by June / July this year..

        • I seem to be missing something again. What upcoming “articles”? I’m still new to this forum & still trying understand when and where Mr. Fenn releases new information. Thanks in advance! Happy Hunting!

          • Ha! loco,
            Ya beat me again.
            LOL… let them fish a little today, so they don’t starve tomorrow… or something like that.
            I can never keep a quote straight… forward.

          • LOL!! Ya did good Seeker. You gave them overview of what’s available and where to ‘search’ for the info….I agree they hafta do homework, but I’ll help a newbie, once or twice, to get their feets wetted!!

          • KK,
            At the bottom of each page/thread on this site is a list of a few other sites about the challenge.
            fenn is know to; for example, post Scrapbooks on this site. On, for example, Mysterious Writing, fenn is known to answer bloggers question sent to him via that site. Other web pages, some searchers, have had personal interviews with fenn and post them on their sites [ most of that info can be found here under different thread topic… some examples, media interviews, Fundamental guide lines, etc etc. found at the top of each page.

            The particular one you’re asking about was mentioned on “Cynthia’s” web page, listed below the bloggers comment sections… like the page you’re on now.
            There’s a ton of info and comments fenn has made in the last 8 years [ since the release of the book ] … You’ll have to dedicate some time and effort to sniff through much of it. However, the grand prize should be enough to get the urge to do so, if not just for, the challenge itself.

          • Thank you Seeker and Loco. I’ve only been really invested in the search since February. I am aware of the MW blog, and this one. I knew that there are many out there, I just tried to stick to Dal’s & Jenny’s blogs because they seemed to be the ones that are FF approved so to speak. I will have to check out the others as well and see what I have missed. Thanks so much!

    • CharlieM, The response by JDA is very logical and I couldn’t have said that any better. Knowing where you are in relation to the finish line is always important. I’ll add one clarification to that – not all clues are “locations” or “points” on a map. So, that should make it easier right?

      IMO

      • OZ, good point, FF has stated many times that there are 9 clues. Could this be like he made two trips in one afternoon? Did it take 20 minutes or 6 hours. To me there are more than 9 clues but he may be considering some of them to be hints instead of clues. Indeed if there are 24 or any othere number more than 9, saying that there are 9 is correct, I don’t think I ever heard of him say that there are ONLY nine. All IMO. I still don’t have the chest so what do I know- All have fun and stay safe.
        Please let someone find it soon so we all will know all of the answers.

        • Hi not obsessed,

          On the lucky number 9, not having any other information to go about but what Forrest has said, we have no other option but to believe him. He wrote the poem and when finished counted the clues. He also explained that solving those 9 clues will lead/point to the location of the chest. Since that was the criteria that he used when counting, then yes I think there are exactly 9 no more and no less.

          Other than the nine clues and the words they are comprised of, is everything else there hints? Supporting evidence? We don’t know, but at the end of our solving if we can tell for sure which 9 [things] pointed us towards somewhere with confidence then we should go there.

    • The nine clues are likely same as any real treasure map. Start is marked then go this direction or that or don’t go to that creek but this creek instead turn here or there then find crossbones x and that’s location.

      So first, where is exact start point…what state or area…. I personally deduce a possibility that the treasure’s’ bold in first stanza is either meaning ‘treasure state’….which is MT nickname….or it’s similar to the ‘Treasures’ sign on the Gallatin Petrified Forest Interpretive trail in Tom Miner Basin.

      But wherever…it likely involves a creek with an area below high water mark which MT deems as ‘public owned’…or a small depression cliffside behind trees …or in middle of a ‘tree clump’ like final chapter’s where there is a wolf shadow if you look real close in tree shadows, and an ‘x’ of tree trunks.

      Just my humble opinion. And I respect all other possibilities (and even objections as well).

      • Very good observation and the “Final Chapter” to boot. Very symbolic, but did you notice two trees form an “X” as well?

        • Thanks 9=9
          and yep..saw the x of the trees
          (as mentioned in my previous post above).
          But thanks in case I didn’t. Wink

          • Ok sorry I thought you were just talking a out the shadow X. Maybe you can tell us more of that picture. It seems more symbolic to me.

          • The only thing that stands out to me is the wolf.
            Forrest mentions 10,000 a few times.
            A $10,000 bill has S Chase oh it
            10,000 ft + Wolf = Wolf creek pass Colorado.

            And the x is an old Colorado confederate miners trick to either find a tree x or graft tree or one grown oddly…or odd natural feature of rocks etc….

            This chapter also with its ‘you gotta look close’ photos….not in high detailed contrast…..but low contrast that requires study…..then maybe he is saying for us to be aware. But he also keeps #1 cast which alone in poem is one, solo, mono, solitaire, ace, etc.

            Many hints?….or just a nice chapter. I dunno.

          • I like your logic Copperhead. You are a good thinker and I have my eye on you Copperheads! wink

    • Thanks to all that responded to my question. 🙂 Next one, if F had “not” said there are 9 clues, how would you have solved the poem? Remember this is hypothetical

      • When I first started, I was in the 9 sentences = 9 clues, so I probably would have tried to solve each sentence. –
        That would have seemed logical to me. JDA

        • My last comment was about you JDA “evolved” You once thought the 9 sentences were 9 clues and now you have morphed to a more logical piece of the solution in the poem. Stanzas 2, 3 and 4 hold the 9 clues IMO.
          The multiple blaze thing makes me wonder though.

      • I think it would have been better if Forrest had never told us about 9 clues. Just that the solution is in the poem, it is a map, imagination, big picture, etc.

        Counting clues is trivia, hints or clues, and so forth.

        Correct area = Correct solve

        Just my opinion

        Franklin

      • The clue count made no difference but avoiding the blogs made all the difference in the world. I didn’t even know blogs existed for the Chase for the first 6 months. I found the clues, nobody told me where or what the clues were suppose to be. It ended up being that none of the blog’s clues were my clues or do I dare say, f’s clues.

        Hypothetically speaking, of course.

        • Dejoka
          I too did not read or know of blogs while working in my solves.
          I think it was to my advantage.
          I am still tweaking some details.
          I don’t think since I’ve been here anyone has mentioned my clues.
          I am sure they are not “new” clues in this treasure hunt, just not talked about here.

    • CharlieM,

      9 Clues helps like many other things Forrest has said helps.

      It gives you a strong idea how the whole thing is constructed, similar to the idea he has told us that the clues are consecutive.

      These two thought together are very powerful tools in an attempt to come up with a solution. Admittedly this may not be as important in the beginning of the game, as it is in the end game but as the pieces of the puzzle fall into place, knowing there is one piece missing verses 2 or 3 matters.

      Just as an example or an experiment, assume that Forrest had definitely told us there was only 1 clue in Stanza #2; this changes drastically how you view those 4 verses. You know start to work with them as providing one single clue versus the possibility of 4 or more…

      Does that help?

      GCG

      • GCG,

        The point I am trying to make, F wrote the poem and then counted the clues. I think the poem could be approached the same way. Solve the poem, then count the clues. Its the same as not knowing what the grid coordinates are, you have to solve the poem then you have the coordinates.

        It really doesn’t matter that one counts as you go along or whether one chooses not to. The end is the same you have to solve the poem.

        It merely was an exercise to see what the searchers thought important.

        IMO

        • Charlie,

          I can see your point clearly but can you see the other side as clearly (or put another way, could you argue the other side as convincingly)?

          Also I would suggest just because Forrest as the designer didn’t know there were 9 clues before he built the poem and until it was complete; is not a sound reason to assert that we as solvers have the same luxury…

          Further Forrest couldn’t know ahead of time (or it would have been highly restrictive of him, to force his poem to meet some predefined number of clues — remember “planning is antagonistic to freedom”).

          As Toby Younis said recently in one of his Vlogs at GK; Forrest didn’t initially write a poem. He had a Map, which he turned into a poem…

          GCG

          • GCG,

            I really do see both sides, if one chooses to do either no harm no fowl. It is to each their own.

            Have a good one until the next time!

            IMO

      • GCG;

        In your last paragraph when you suggest that one “assume that Forrest had definitely told us there was only 1 clue in Stanza #2;” – are you suggesting that Forrest HAS actually said this? If so, please provide the quote and source. From my point of view, you are misleading people into believing something that is NOT true.

        You then go on to say, “; this changes drastically how you view those 4 verses. You know (sic) start to work with them as providing one single clue versus the possibility of 4 or more… Why would you lead others to believe that this is the way that Forrest wants us to view Stanza #2 – when Forrest has NEVER encouraged searchers to view Stanza #2 in this manner. Thanks – JDA

        • JDA,

          I said ASSUME (as an experiment);
          that Forrest told us that there was only ONE clue in Stanza #2.

          Not that this is TRUE but as an experiment in logic, in order to better see how important it is to know certain things about the poem, while attempting to find the treasure

          I’m not misleading anyone but attempting to answer Charlie’s question by posing a case which dramatizing the situation in order to illuminate or make more clear a specific thought process.

          GCG

        • Geezus JDA… Did you read that post thoroughly? Don’t make it a habit to throw harsh accusations around like that. Let the new people post without threats please.

          • OZ10;

            Yes, I read it thoroughly. TO ME GCG implied that Forrest had said there was only one clue in Stanza #2.

            I am sorry, I do not see the logic in making a false assumption – that there is only one clue in stanza #1 – in order to better understand that the opposite is true – but that is just me.

            I know that when I was a “newbie” I was easily swayed by statements that had no basis in fact. It was only after I was able to separate the wheat from the chaff that I began to understand the poem.

            If I misread GCG’s post, and over-reacted – I apologize. I can only say what “I” read and interpreted, which, TO ME looked pretty misleading. JDA

          • JDA

            Youre misunderstanding what this is.
            GCG is commenting to Charlie about how to view the clues if Fenn never said there were 9. He is basically saying stanza 2 could be viewed as 1 clue. But we do know there is 9 clues and 3 or 4 in stanza 2.
            Its a thought exeecise regarding how one views this if there was no known amount of clues.

          • JDA- if you aint got the chest, nor a photo, then you still dont understand the poem.

            i think.

          • JDA,
            I don’t know how you can take GCG comment as nothing more that a WhatIF.

            GCG ~**Just as an example * or an experiment,** “assume that” Forrest had definitely told us there was only 1 clue in Stanza #2;

          • IMO half uninformed.

            Read lines 5, 6 and 7 as if it were a sentence and not a poem.

            “Start the ideal solution where the warm waters take a break and take the canyon down, near, but not so close to walk.”

            This phrase should be viewed on a map. (So the girl from India would see, according to Forrest suggests.)

          • Ken, you should consider writing that book about the evolution of a modern searcher. I’m sure we could all write one at this point!

          • I would recommend watching a YouTube video on the evolution of an anime fan, it seems very close to that of a searcher.

          • I don’t know Kira ! I made it through about 60 seconds…I still enjoy books that have ” See Spot run.” as the main plot…my grand kids can attest to that.

        • JDA,

          For crying out loud, CGC said it was an experiment, not a fact.

          You’ve jumped on me several times because you did not read what I was saying, then you apologized. This I believe is the case with CGC.

          Please be a little more considerate and slow down in reading what one says.

          My, apology if what I said aggravated you.

          Truly have a nice day! 🙂

      • CGC

        I think a lot of this is going to come into focus with the NY article.

        He’s going to explain how we are reading the poem incorrectly.

        He is going to explain what he means by in the mountains. Explain where rivers are and are not.

        I have no direct knowledge. Call it a gut feeling.

        Lugnutz

        • Hello Marcelo. It is unknown whom the poet is, but there are those who believe Mr. Fenn penned it.

        • Marcelo, I think there are multiple Phantoms in all our lives…. in Fenn’s it may be a memory of 2 brothers at play, one calling himself The Shadow, the other, The Phantom. Another Phantom might be a special trout, weighing in at about 44 ounces. Another might be an airplane. Dreams are funny things, everything merges together.

          • Marcelo Calestini de Apucarana –
            There have been others searchers to have “4” in their solve. How do you come up with “4” {four} ?

            Should this idea come from the line in the poem ” Not far, but too far to walk” and using “far” as ~ it sounds like four. Doesn’t the comma separate one “far” from the other making it 242 or even the whole line as 4,242?

            Just curious….

          • OS2,
            Interesting you mention 42.
            [ warning/disclaimer; you are about to enter the mind of an abstract thinker… be afraid, be very afraid. Ha! ]

            Yep 242, 424, 4,242 have been yacked about in the past… But the interesting thing about 42, it is mentioned by fenn for the weight of the chest and all its contents… Planned or just a happening?

            fenn mentions “my rainbow” prior to the chest and seems to combine the two as one ~ “lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure” { sure, rainbow could be thought of as, the full circle of life and death, which is another topic } And like you said 42 is the angle of the light to a rainbow… It is also interesting that [ don’t laugh ] spaces count from the “A” for As… to the “T” in treasures is “42” spaces from the “beginning” to the “treasure”

            There seems to be a few anomalies that pick up on 42, without stretching a word like “far” to sound like “four” because fenn might have a slight Tx drawl, as some have suggested in the past.

            Other suggestions/idea is that 42 represents the cast of a shadow at the correct time of day to be 42 degree angle of the sun to create the correct length in that shadow [ book cover idea ] from the blaze to the chest… if you can find the chest the distance would be obvious, comment, idea. [ could it be, we are the blaze when in the correct spot the poem leads us to? the searcher is the pointer?]
            So, I was just curious on how MC got the numbers.

            But while we’re talking it about sound a like words, and different attempts to utilize them [ and possibly misspelled words]
            Stout hearted men; Then there’s nothing in the world can “halt” or “mar” a plan.
            Mar meaning, impair/spoil in this case.
            However, Maar means; a broad, shallow crater, typically filled by a lake, formed by a volcanic explosion with little lava. LOL… sound like any place we know of?

            Is that the ‘type of hinting’ fenn suggest is in the book, but not deliberately placed to aid? Yet, the use of “halt” in fenn’s poem is meant for this type of reasoning -?- to discover the hints? { even though we don’t really need the idea to “follow” the clues that lead to the chest…} but fenn sees something like this as a possible hint to help, IF [deep thinking] reader see “halt” in correlation to “mar” and see/knows that fenn misspells words { knowlege for example } and tell us why he does?

            IF any of that is possible… does it help with the correct WWWH?

            LOL stretching, or analyzing?

            Hey, I warned you at the start of this post, right?

          • On pages 122 and 123 of TTOTC is interesting, as it relates to 42. All of the pictures of fish are outlined with a box. On the outside of the box shows the location of where the fish were caught, presumably. The picture in the middle / bottom of the two pages is the picture with the most fish, and is the only with no people in it. Outside of the box is HEBGEN LAKE. It is the only picture with words inside the box, other than names, and it says YELLOWSTONE PARK 1942. 1942 is roughly 58 years before he hid the chest, the age of which he got cancer. Also, were the fish caught in Yellowstone or Hebgen Lake?

          • Hey Aaron, he was diagnosed with cancer in Jan, 1988, 57 years old. Removed in Dec, 1988, 58 years old.
            2442, 6 6 = FF. The age of 12.
            With age, what happened in 1997, when he was 66? Marvel gaze…

          • Seeker, thanks for the Marr., thats new to me. I think the symbols chosen & used tell a lot about about the authors deep thinking…. Literature is Important. Owl for raven was simple substitution, but was it? In the Stout Men chapter, “threshold moment” I felt were loaded words … a door & time reference. And throughout the book all the warm comfort given by those old gray ladies who break things or make them on their break seems loaded too. (note the ‘break’ association). The Great Grey Owl makes an interestingt spirit guide. but it’s last words 4-2-4 ain’t a hoot. All IMO of course. OS2

          • PS, in that Stout chapter, I also thought the name of the ship, New Moon, might have some significance as well…. waiting for the ‘light to change’ and all. OS2.

      • The mention of the drink at the end is called a Rickie or a Mojito. Since FF does not drink anymore I do not believe that he was the Phantom.
        This poem hints about Eagles Nest, New Mexico, and Cimmarron Canyon. A beautiful place where many searchers have gone. Including me.

          • Seeker, Marcelo, Michael …
            The 4-2-4 comes from the last stanza in the Phantom poem, SB 94. Number 42 has been discussed before, it’s the angle that sunbeams bounce off mist to create rainbows & rainbows are often seen at waterfalls, so there is that. 42 is also “the answer to everything” (deep thinking in Hitchhikers Guide to the Galaxy.) But my best guess is that the Phantom in the poem is a reference to the Phantom of the North, i.e., the Great Grey Owl. It’s large, but not weighty since its size is mostly a lot of feather fluff…. could be 44 ounces as mentioned in the poem. Or maybe its the more common Saw-whet owl since the TC is ‘wet’. …. did ff say he knew Indulgence IS wet or WAS wet? WAS/SAW have the same letters. Do notice in that final stanza there are the words ‘infernal’ and ‘deeper’… which I think could suggest ‘fire-hole’. Owls have high nests like eagles, and their homes are often the abandoned nests of other raptors. I think the 4-2-4 might be the count of a boy on a bike in the woods as he counts offer markers or blazes to pass in order to reach the turn-off to his special place…. they might be tall trees with raptor nests or feeder creeks or somethings else… 4 on this side of the river, 2 on the other, then 4 more on this side (Just an example). The drink (Vodka raspberry lime) I read once a while back in a bar guide is called an Indiana Ricki…Anyhow, thats what i get out of the poem. OS2

  14. Hello! I think the key word of the poem is ”marvel”.IMO
    1st clue: in marvel comics wwh ,google it, is world war hulk, using imagination and being familiar with kids (halt – hulk – walk) . U could read free online this comic book here : https://view-comic.com/world-war-hulk-01-of-05-2007/
    In the beginning,after the introduction of hulk says: North american aerospace defence command outpost b23 cheyenne wyoming. But is not in wyoming. Norad is located at Peterson Air Force Base in El paso county, Colorado springs. Halt also is a military word. Maybe the starting point…
    This book is published in 2007 and FF hid the treasure in 2009-2010.
    Open google map to see how the poem goes
    2nd clue: canyon down – Canon city
    3rd clue: home of Brown – Brown’s Fort heliport
    4th clue: No place for the meek – Echo
    5th clue: No paddle up your creek – Texas creek (FF born in Texas right?)
    6th clue: Heavy loads and water high – falls gulch mountain
    7th clue: found the blaze – Salida S mountain (white mark)
    8th clue: Look quickly down – Cleora ghost town and a type of butterfly
    Also, Cleora – Cleopatra had a marvel gaze….
    9th clue: Just take the chest and go in peace – Little Rainbow trail, its not a human trail, its a bike trail. At the west end near the parking lot elevation goes to 10,200 ft above sea level,near Methodist mountain and full of pinon trees.
    Only the phantom knows,as ghost rider in marvel! Good luck and ride a bike! George

  15. I’m trying to read between the lines and I still think it should have an antecedent.

    • The Wanderer, I agree with you totally on the statement the nine sentences are the nine clues for one simple reason. There are way more than 9 clues in the poem so to narrow it down to less would mean to separate the clues by use of sentences.

      • @Louie, yup. And I’m watching the action unfold as many are now, once again, discussing the Q & A’s posed by Steve, Phil Bayman and even Halo. The number of clues in the poem may not matter much, in our quest to recover the treasure, as the answer to Halo’s question infers, so the question then becomes, why did he even feel the need to mention that the poem contained nine clues, or why did he use a colon just prior to it?

        Either way I’m having fun kicking over logs.

        • Wanderer

          Im assuming youre mentioning tje colon due to the vlog from “the flip side of ff treasure hunt” if not then ignore the rest, if so, who knows.
          He addresses how the colon os used in fenn prior writings as that sentence before the poem is being left open. His interpretation is that the 9 clues therefore is the 9 sentences. This would be flawed because when the : is used its , tjat seperatea the items. For his line of thinking to hold true then each clue would be the information up to each comma as periods clise out the sentence for this list fenn wrote about, therefore once yiu get to the 1st period the colon is now closed.
          What do I know but logic.

  16. If u like my post 2-3 comments above, I got one more possible solve with another key word.I call it my crazy rainbow:
    Key word ”the”. There are 10 in the poem. The canyon, the home, the meek, the end, the blaze, the chest, the answers, the cold, the wood and last one gives u the title to the gold. If u count the words canyon is 37th word, home is 50, meek is 60, end is 62, blaze is 87, chest is 104, answers is 126, cold is 151 and wood 156. Now marry the 9 clues and u got location:
    latitude 37.50606287 longitude -104.126151156
    Now, try to zoom in 37.526204 – 104.099317 just 10 minutes from there.
    Is that the blaze? https://ibb.co/j2Ck7b

      • Pinon Canyon Maneuver Site, training site for Fort Carson and 30 miles from Trinidad,Colorado.
        “If I was standing where the treasure chest is, I’d see trees, I’d see mountains, I’d see animals. I’d smell wonderful smells of pine needles, or pinyon nuts, sagebrush and I know the treasure chest is wet.”
        “Well you’ve asked me a lot of questions and some of them most of them I answered, a few I haven’t, but I’ve got to tell you there’s one thing I told you I wish I had not.” What about Pinon? Thanks for your reply!

        • George, this should answer your question:

          https://dalneitzel.com/2015/02/03/huffpost/#comment-73812

          Forrest Fire
          on February 6, 2015 at 3:45 pm said:
          “You are right Ed, that New Mexico tourism video is getting a lot of exposure. I did not intend for my comment about pinon nuts to be a clue, and certainly no one should believe I was trying to say the treasure is hidden in New Mexico. Shame on me for saying that”. f

          Hope this helps – JDA

          • Jda,

            Following the poem, in a somewhat different way, I arrived at this place.

            I find it unlikely that the treasure is there.

            But I think you will find it interesting.

            It’s a cavity in the rock.

            How did I get to her?

            Open Goolgel Earth and from Santa Fe

            WWWH = look up.
            CD = City of Penasco (cliff)
            TFTW = Next city farther from Taos = Penasco
            HoB = Taos
            No Place Meek = Shady Brook, Valle Escondido, Angel Fire
            The end ever nigh = it’s not that far anymore.
            No padle creek = Arroyo Seco (dry river)
            Heavy Loads = “Three Stones”
            Water high = Arroyo Hondo (Rio Fundo)
            Blaze = Lucero Peak (Strong Light Peak)
            Look down = Cavity on the Rock at the foot of Pico Lucero.

            http://radicalspiritualist.blogspot.com.br/2011/10/cave-that-inspired-dh-lawrence.html

          • Jda, sorry, correct translation now.

            Following the poem, in a somewhat different way, I arrived at this place.

            I find it “very unlikely” that the treasure is there.

            But I think you will find it interesting.

            It’s a cavity in the rock.

            How did I get to her?

            Open Goolgel Earth and from Santa Fe

            WWWH = look for up.

            CD = City of Penasco (cliff)

            TFTW = Next city farther from Taos = Penasco

            HoB = Taos

            No Place Meek = Shady Brook, Valle Escondido, Angel Fire

            The end ever nigh = it’s not that far anymore.

            No padle creek = Arroyo Seco (dry river)

            Heavy Loads = Três Piedras (Three Stones)

            Water high = Arroyo Hondo (Rio Fundo)

            Blaze = Lucero Peak (Strong Light Peak)

            Look down = Cavity on the Rock at the foot of Pico Lucero.

            http://radicalspiritualist.blogspot.com.br/2011/10/cave-that-inspired-dh-lawrence.html

          • Marcelo;

            A very good interpretation of the clues. I think that this area has been searched by quite a few searchers including Cynthia, but one never knows what was overlooked.

            I applaud your enthusiasm, to be searching so far away. Good luck to you. JDA

    • George geo- if that looks like a boot on the ground to you then yes it is the blaze….otherwise no. two boots would be better though.

      i think.

      • Maybe,my imagination runs faster than my knowlege!
        It looks like a boot on the ground to me,hopscotch!
        37.526204 -104.099317 satellite mode

  17. Are there signs that people are getting closer to solving your puzzle? How many clues have people solved now?

    Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.

    Does this mean clues 5 through 9 have a total distance of less than about 200 ft?

  18. Hello Everyone,

    “Don’t let logic distract you from the poem…” Weekly Words with Forrest 02/12/16.

    I bring this up because of the amount of discussion taking place on a few topics where the discussion might be getting bogged down by a certain rigidity of logic. Please let me ‘splain, Lucy!

    A previous post of mine briefly discussed this but given the long threads regarding WWWH and the first clue and “too far to walk” stuff, etc. — I think its pertinent to bring it up again.

    I grew up playing logic games with my grandparents who were both educators and we would do long road trips and play for hours at time and unlike games with friends, they wouldn’t let me off easy — no quarter was given (besides these were long road trips and I was a hard headed boy)…

    We played 20 questions; Animal, Vegetable, Mineral and another similar game where a short story is told with basic facts and then using only Yes or No questions, you have to figure out “what really happened” in the story or in the previous case the correct Animal, Vegt. or Mineral.

    Anyway I bring this up again because the KEY learning or realization in this game after you have done it a few times is how hard or fixed logic more than likely will trap you forever or at least for an excruciating amount of time into a box that you can’t get out of and solve the problem.

    Also as the person possessing the question or the story; you learn it is often very difficult to provide Yes or No answers to question which are “strictly” true… So you have to pick the best answer and then try to stay consistent given the particular line of reasoning you chose to go with that YES answer…Unless you are a diabolical SOB and you purposely want to confuse the player (or make it harder as one of my friends use to say)…

    If you have played these games, then hopefully you understand immediately what I’m implying however if you haven’t grown up playing these type of games then I hope my explanation was sufficient to get the idea across.

    If not, then by all means I suggest you do a few rounds of 20 questions with some friends!!!

    Did this communicate? Is it helpful?

    GCG

  19. To Everyone,

    In light of recent discussions debating the HARD logic of certain Forrest Fenn Comments and solving the poem particularly in reference to WWWH’s and its relationship to the “starting point” and Not far, but too far to walk paradoxes — please let me remind you of the game “20 Questions.”

    I’ve briefly discussed this before but given the passionate nature of the Nine Clues thread, I thought it might help to bring it up again in order to elucidate an important factor in any game like the one we are playing…

    In the game Animal, Vegetable or Mineral; the player gets to ask Yes or No questions and the person directing the game can only answer Yes or No answers.

    One of the biggest lessons you learn playing this game – both as the player and as the director, is some questions can be answered either Yes or No and still be true and as the player or the director you can see how a Yes or No answer can lead to a particular “hard” logic set which is either conducive or not conducive to solving the problem.

    As the player you need to learn how to ask questions outside of a single chain of logic in order to better gauge the context of the answer and the eventual correct solution. And as the director of the game (if you aren’t and SOB like some of my “friends” were), when presented with a question that can be answered both ways truthfully, then you attempt maintain that particular chain of logic and be consistent for the rest of the game …

    If you have played 20 Questions then hopefully this is helpful. If you haven’t played 20 Questions before then get out there and give it a try!

    GCG

    • Being consistent is sort of like being normal
      In art there are no normal painters in museums
      Only the ‘different’ or accomplished seems celebrated by display in museums over the decades.

      Look at Fenn’s favorite artist (Fechin). There are so many lines of distraction in his work it’s an optical feast!

      (Btw, Forrest and Peggy purchased both Sharp and Gaspard’s homes. He donated Sharp’s home to museum in Cody. Gaspard’s house is in Taos.)

    • Hello GCG. I believe searchers are trying their best to understand the clues to the poem.

    • GCG
      I like your thoughts on logic.
      For me, right now I am in a phase of going back and reading Fenn quotes.
      And, trying to read them logically, while at the same time leaving my biases out…
      Clearly Clueless

      • CC,
        Thanks man, I really am working to assist in reconciling different view points and where I can provide info that seems to strongly suggest a specific way to either view Forrest comments, or interpret the clues.

        That is all I’m working to do because (too me) if you are not an absolutist in your reasoning (meaning excessively strict with out room to flex – or bend as Forrest might say), then it is very possible to reconcile all of Forrest comments. And in my opinion, this logical reconciliation of what at face value, may appear as paradoxical, provides the greatest opportunities to have meaningful breakthroughs in correctly interpreting the clues in the poem…

        As an example; how can it be both possible to nail down the first clue but simultaneously still not know if you have the first clue correct until you find the chest…

        IF your solutions, can’t reconcile these two statements, then it is likely you do NOT have a correct solution. Because Forrest gets more right than he gets wrong and these two statements are so obviously confusing, that I find it unlikely Forrest said the second with out understanding it impact…

        Further, IMO you shouldn’t even be bothering with this particularly reconciliation until later on in the solution (say after you have solved the first 4 clues).

        GCG

  20. More 9 clues – a ‘brave’ possibility:

    West Yellowstone – HOB – home of Be ouR OWN – the house Fenn’s had there in WY …and where his bath was either hot or cold…no warm water.
    Canyon down (one possible way) toward Bozeman
    Grayling creek
    Brave and in the wood – A brave can be inside a wikiup or ‘teepee’, right?
    Tepee creek off grayling creek

    no paddle up your creek – fan can be a ‘paddle fan’ – fan creek – so it’s not that far, go back to teepee creek.
    Heavy loads – trees near a creek catches fisherman’s flies…
    Water high – MT law says below ‘high water mark’ is public land. Thus…’your creek’.

    Every tree, rock, and mudbank has been searched every year there though …but no blaze nor tc found…maybe a newbie will find it?

    • He was talking about Temple, Texas cemetery on page 41. Going down to Temple cemetery from his Temple house was north, in other words.

  21. OK….How many clues are in the poem? And what are we supposed to do with them? Not a trick question….

    • For my solution I did not count the clues.

      I counted the steps and there were 6 steps that took me to a specific location. (With a margin of error of 50 feet.)

      If I count the evidence (clues maybe) that lead me to this location, it will be “10” or “11”.

      I followed “exactly” the poem. I tried to disqualify my solution (finding errors), but I did not find it.

      Now I have to get a passport visa for the USA. (That will be very difficult!)

    • ken,

      I count 10, but one of those is a little fuzzy, it could be a hint.

      As to your question, what do we do with them? Each clue is a place on a map, same as a point to point of travel. For instance wwwh and hoB are places, TFTW is a distance from wwwh to below hoB. NPFTM is also a place. As I said point to point travel from wwwh to the TC.

      Best description most clues are pins on a map.

      IMO

  22. @All, “Try to simply if you can”. Many I believe are over complicating the riddle by over simplying the clues, much like Phil Bayman did. In my opinion, each of the nine sentence, in the poem, is a clue. And when we break those sentences down into sub parts, because we think individual lines, words or phrases are the clues, we inadvertently over complicate the problem. One should look at each sentence as a clue because each word, in that sentence, helps provide the context of each other word in it as a whole, the bigger picture. And when we break those clues apart we then lose their context and quite possibly all hopes of certainty.

    It is OK if you disagree with this, because I too do not yet possess the treasure.

    • So I already posted here that I consider the first three clues (WWWH, CD and TFTW)
      as being a large area.

      Place of the HoB = giving me the direction to follow

      And the rest of the poem tells me how to proceed in a small place where the chest is hidden.

      JIMO

      “I dn’t know anythings yet.”

    • Nope, don’t disagree. Would add. Solve each line, yes, break the line down, yes, IMO, do it by following instructions. Instruction words, instructions within words, even instruction letters. Solve the small to get the large. This is why you cannot mess with the poem and move things around without being instructed to do so. You could move an actual instruction.
      Now the 9 sentences being clues I disagree, to solve some of the clues the info is not available, but doesn’t mean I’m right, I just disagree.
      It’s not so much in a sense that we break down the words and phrases by dissecting meanings, patterns of speech, etc…etc…, it’s all about seeing the instructions and following them, that’s all, pretty simple.
      As you said, not very popular, but a way to solve the poem. No body can say it’s wrong, and leaves the guess work out. So, I see where you are going, may need to be tweeked, but the foundation for a solve is there. It’s good to see someone not play darts with the chase. Good luck. I say keep going with the thought….

  23. Here are some 9 clue suggestions. All IMHO because “summer” is so close.

    Find your WWWH and take that in the canyon down, down, down, until you cannot go any further. Believe me, you will have found that, “too far to walk.” Forget about that HOB rabbit hole nonsense.

    When you finally say, “where in the blazes am I?” Congratulations! You are now officially, “wise.”

    So -look quickly down (not another step!)- because your quest just ceased! REMEMBER THIS MOMENT FOR THE REST OF YOUR LIFE.

    Now I am sure that you are saying what in the tarry scant is he talking about? Exactly! Look around and pick up the first mess of tarry scant that you can find, but don’t take it all… leave a piece. Take the rest with you. Why? Because you have to! Quit asking so many questions.

    Now you might be tempted to say, “why did I go and leave that trove for others to seek?” The answer you should already know!!! You are tired (sweaty and in a really bad mood) and your knees are weak!

    So hear this now and listen good. Your effort may be making you cold… but if you picked up some pieces of collectable wood, you might consider that as “good as GOLD. “

    Have a nice time and a safe search this spring, because summer is almost here!

    I’m going fishing…

  24. Oops, mistake by 20 years on my math. The other info on those pages are interesting though.

  25. Hi Folks, long time lurker, first time poster. I’ve been working on the poem for almost three years off and on, and finally have what I think is a good “solve”. I’ve really enjoyed (and learned a lot!) reading this blog. I find it fascinating learning how different our brains are and how differently we all look at the same clues. So with that in mind, here’s my question:

    Hints vs Clues
    My understanding is that the clues are in the poem, and will point you toward the treasure. And there are hints in the books, that might help you with the clues. The way I’ve interpreted that is that the hints in the book can help you to decide if the place you’ve figured out is really one of the clues. So, for those of you with solves.. What are some of the hints that helped you figure out your clues? I’ll start. Five hints that helped with my clues, (in no particular order) Finding arrowheads, pineapple pie, in the middle, “good German stock”, tall grass. I’d love to see what other hints people think are important.

    Thanks in advance!
    Meg

    • okay:
      Environmentalists to some degree

      little of me is also in the box

      we should have buried him standing up

      me in the middle

      Eric Sloane

      5 clues that helped with clues…

  26. Not sure if you saw my later post but I messed up the math I subtracted 1942 from 2000 instead of 2010. Bad math but still interesting the way that picture is payed out differently than the others and the number 42 is involved.

      • CO,

        It sure is – My wife insisted we do a mock up of this with my backpack (which I intend to use). So she went outside and found a few large landscaping stones and then weighed them, until she identified one that was 43 pounds (please note it was bigger than the Chest in question – this is one dense treasure load we are after).

        Anyway we put it in the backpack and then I had to hike around the house going up and down stairs for 20 minutes – no easy task considering how it sits in a normal backpack on the back…

        GCG

        • large boxes of ammunition are the closest thing I can find that simulates size and weight of the tc although not exact.

          • I was just curious GCG because you’re practicing carrying the tc which implies confidence lol.

          • Cowbell (MCB),

            Confidence,Yes! I’m almost to the point of a promise…

            My solution to the poem is complete.
            It is from the poem alone.
            It has no contrivances.
            It is straight-forward.
            It can not be coincidental.
            It is precise.
            It answers all the paradoxes.
            It explains Forrest comments & Fenn-isms.
            It’s in alignment with all of Forrest comments.
            It confirms hints and aberrations in the books.
            I’m sure its correct and I’m nervous as heck!

            But I say all this to make the following comment:

            Forrest has said:
            — I reserve the right to be wrong once in a while.
            — I’m aware that some searchers will pick me a part.
            — You might say I was prevaricating.
            — Or you might say I was quibbling.
            — There is no secret information… … to the hiding place.
            — You make this thing so complicated.
            — It’s in the poem for all to see.
            — Reminds me of the reason I don’t like meetings.
            — I take nothing for granted.

            When the “correct solution” is finally revealed not everyone is going to be happy, since searchers are going to mince and parse his every word.

            One of the biggest I see; is the question of “specialized knowledge.” Some searchers have put forward great ideas regarding the bounds of this statement however not everyone’s idea of what counts as specialized knowledge can be met… Especially if you are a person of rigidity or rigid logic. Which again brings up the quote:
            “don’t let logic distract you from the poem”

            Ultimately the poem has its own logic structure and that is what is important. I didn’t hide a multi-million dollar treasure and neither did anyone but Forrest, so its not my logic or your logic that counts – only the poem’s logic.

            So in the light of all these comments – in my opinion, everyone trying to solve this poem doesn’t already have the knowledge set necessary, BUT the information is READILY discoverable from the poem (I personally didn’t know a KEY thing necessary to solve the poem, however it was discoverable through the poem, as well as by reading this particular forum and by exercising imagination and resourcefulness…)

            GCG

          • While I think you’re likely over-confident, your confidence is definitely concerning, especially given I personally am also confident, just more quietly so in general.

            If you won’t tell us which state, any chance you’ll share when you’re going, if you haven’t already? My trip’s booked and absent seeing the actual treasure chest on GE, I’m not changing it, but if you’re going before me and find it, maybe I’ll at least be able to cancel some things and save some money.

            FWIW, I vaguely recall something you posted as not being congruent with my search area so I’m thinking we aren’t searching in the same area, but hard to say for sure.

          • Hi GCG,

            Regarding the specialized knowledge, are you saying that some of it is needed or not needed? Or just subjective?

            Forrest once said ‘TTOTC book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure’ or something like that. Yikes! what is an average person to Mr. F? 🙂

          • Oz,
            Allow me to add to your question…
            Is a dictionary/word meanings and usages [ regardless of source ] special knowledge?
            Is Geography [regardless of, amount of knowledge] special knowledge-?- that might help.
            Is the ideas of the book.. ex. knowing fenn was shot down twice, or book he read or never ‘finished’ reading… special knowledge – should we need to read them and never had?

            GCG ~ ‘so its not my logic or your logic that counts – only the poem’s logic.’

            Great, and I get we can’t understand every aspect of the term “special knowledge” But this begs the question;
            How do we or you decide “the poem’s logic” and ATF comments [ state above ] without a logical deduction of our own knowledge and /or learning something we did not have knowledge of.. such as, meanings of words in “plain English”

            LOL… the comment I like is; fenn say ~try and simplify the poem. Right there ya got a 50/50 reading into that with the searchers/blogger.
            One version~Use the KISS method… simple is king
            One version~Try and simplify what fenn “made/created”,.. difficult but not impossible

            I lean toward the latter… fenn didn’t take all that time and those early drafts, then place a prize of high value, that keep growing in value as time move on, for this to be Simple.
            Well, that’s my logical answer anyways.

          • Seeker,

            TTOTC, a dictionary and Geography is needed. No specialized knowledge will be like keep the dictionary to look up only the words in the poem and their meanings.

            Where is the line between comprehensive knowledge but no specialized knowledge of Geography?

          • Well GCG my friend. Good luck with your search. I suspect the tc will found by mid summer.

          • GCG- when Forrest said “dont let logic distract you from the poem” i think he means keep in mind that a lot of poetry uses metaphors. reading the poem logically leads one to the great outdoors, which was his goal. and he has lead many.
            metaphorically, the poem could lead one anywhere. even the great indoors. the poem is a map. if you know where to begin. to me, where he has gone alone and with his treasures bold is the place. indoors. from there, its no place for logic.
            the place is for kids brimming with imagination.

            i think.

        • IMHO – So, when all is said and done and the trove rests in hands that respect it more than rock and wind, all other searchers will say, “Why didn’t I think of that?”

          The answer is, “Because you decided to ‘think,’ instead of solve.

          I plan on going fishing…with a very experienced guide. Which should mean I am gong…catching.

          • FMC – I’d say enjoy your trip regardless. I’m just another crazy treasure hunter…

            OZ – I’m saying that some people, who have dedicated a lot of time and energy (particularly here on HoD) are going to potentially claim foul because the very idea of “specialized knowledge” is subjective by nature and even more so if you are rigid in your mindset…

            Seeker – the above leads into your question. Reading the book, “specialized knowledge & average intelligence,” 200 & 500 feet, first clue & starting point, simplify & imagination & difficult but not impossible, we don’t know what words mean & plain English.” And so on… I’m saying you have to hold all this in your head like rubber bands as you proceed through the poem but the poem is paramount.

            And how does a person read and interpret the poem with out bringing your own logic into it; I like what LMN said, “solve” don’t think or put another way:

            “The answers I already know”

            Meaning the poem’s verses are kinds of questions and the goal should be to just answer the questions and nothing more.

            GCG

          • I get what you are saying, solving a puzzle does require lapses in logic. Sometimes those ‘lapses’ and how it is used is the actual key to the puzzle. For that to work, professional solvers rely the the creators followed a set of general rules or standards. We don’t know if FF followed any predetermined rule and all we have is his statement “it is difficult but not impossible”.

            So when Mr. F said that he gave enough information for an ‘average person’ to find the treasure, maybe he was referring to those who have the aptitude for puzzle solving and not just the average between the population.

          • GCG…Solving Fenn’s poem in quest of his treasure is an adventure. Each searcher has one ultimate goal…solve the clues, and then find the hidden chest.
            I like your analogy of the rubber band theory and believe that the process of solving the poem will include a collection of “answers” deciphered from the poem. Tying them together in a fluid motion is going to be key.
            Have fun and looking forward to your follow-up.

          • Fenn has always inferred that the successful searcher is going to have to work for it…difficult , but not impossible.
            “Comprehensive” vs. “Specialized”…is a good point. Where is the defining line on that one?
            TTOTC page 147
            “No time spent in thought is wasted and nothing is too small to know, so one should not let knowing a little bit be a substitute for learning more.”

  27. I’ve decided that the thought that annoys me the most, but is also relatively common is when people make an argument for flutterby = butterfly as being meaningful.

    Just a thought when all I really want to do is subscribe.

  28. I am relatively new and I have been hearing this term “poem purist” used a lot lately and I am really confused because the definition is being used very loosely from “poem only” to “knowledge that a poem exists.” Can someone explain what poem purist actually means and why there is such a discrepancy in its understanding?

    • 9=9

      It is my understanding that there are those that feel that the riddles of the poem can be solved by reading the poem, and only the poem. The “Poem Purist’s” believe that reading TToTC, TFTW and OUAW is not necessary, and that reading any of Forrest’s ATF comments only confuses the issue.

      That is “MY” understanding of what a “Poem Purist” believes – I may be wrong – Possibly one of the true “Poem Purists” will chime in – Just my understanding of what the term means – JDA

      • 9=9

        I don’t know where JDA got the idea that poem purists don’t read F’s books because it wasn’t necessary. The truth is poem purists, well at least for me, ATF comments by F that pertains to the poem are valued more. I do not go outside of the boundary of the poem and figure out what he is trying to tell us. Not disecting words such as “IT” or “wise” to mean something else, other than how its read. Without the books and knowing something of F’s life we wouldn’t be able to understand the poem. The book came with the poems word map, match that map translated from words to a real map. It is merely “not” twisting words in the poem that contain nine clues, that are whispering the answer to each clue.

        It’s pretty much trying to simplify.
        IMO

        • CharlieM, do you think all the ITs in the poem refer to the same thing?

          There’s been some that say they are trying to simplify that utterly confuse me with their approaches.

          • fundamental design,

            Yes the IT in the poem means the same thing, such as

            Begin it= Begin the search
            take it = take your search

            IMO

          • I made a post in “The Poem” section here that has my video of what I think it means. I think IT depends on what you are using the poem to do 🙂

          • CharlieM;
            So why is “it” that I must go = So why is the search that I must go????
            I’ve done “it” tired…= I’ve done the search, and now I’m tired???
            “From there “it’s” no place…” = From there the search is no place for the meek???

            Your idea of “the search” being “it” doesn’t seem to work so well past the first two you mentioned CharlieM – at least not to me. JMO – JDA

          • LOL.. confused, yep.

            Should we remove IT from the poem [remembering it is a poem] Or simply dismiss IT as nothing of reason, we could read those line as;
            ~Begin where warm waters halt. { seems find that way as well, right? }
            ~And take in the canyon down or go in, depending on ones idea. { still works if IT doesn’t mean anything }
            ~From there [ could have read ] IS no place for the meek. [compared to ‘it is’ ~ IT’s]
            ~ So why must I go and leave. [Being this was a question to start with… doesn’t change the question if ~ IT is has not real idea/thought behind it]

            IF the word IT was not meant for different usages, thoughts, intent… why use them at all and still say “every word was deliberate” and “Risky to discount them”

            Another reason for the word[s] IT and IT’s could fall to word count [ yep there I go again, over complicating ]
            But if these words are useless for anything… they are not needed at all, right? The same idea could work for other word in the poem “there’ll” “you’ve” “I’ve”
            In fact “I’ve” is spelled out in the first line of the poem “I have” Why not stay consistent if there is not a reason.
            Why not ‘you have’ instead of You’ve… again, if every word was deliberate and many drafts of the poem took place over a very long time-?- to “get it just right” “turned out exactly like I wanted”

            The fact that IT is used in the question presented in the poem; raise curiosity to “why is IT”; possibly meaning; making, forcing, available etc… “I ‘must’ to go and leave…
            Should this version of the poem still be related to fenn going to die… does this change any ideas of what the answers could relate to?
            Should that line mean… go and leave, at a later date… What would that relate too?

            Don’t mind me… I’m just over complicating the box we’re all stuck in… Or trying to simplify IT without dismissing those WhatIF’s.

            See IT as you wish…

          • I add…
            Why is there a question at all in the poem, nevertheless having answers to it…??. If not important to ~All information to find the treasure is in the poem.

          • JDA,

            “Why is it I must go” Read as a normal sentence in your examples. I am only referring to the two IT in the second stanza.

          • Seeker,

            Answer to your question, about the question in the 5th stanze. There are few words that will not help in solving the poem. [not a exact quote by F.]

            I believe most of you know why he hid the treasure, I believe F answered that question. Its my firm belief that there are no clues or hints in stanza 5.

            IMO

          • CharlieM: I’ll go contrarian (?) and suggest there are hints in EVERY stanza. That really shouldn’t be an unpopular opinion in light of Forrest’s “dangerous to discount any words” ATF remark. It’s not likely he’s going to waste any sixth of the poem with boilerplate, and there is strong evidence from those ATF comments that there are no clues in the first stanza.

            If there is anything slightly renegade about my opinion it’s that hints are found in the same stanzas that clues are found.

          • Zap,

            Our opinions are different, I’ve always read the 1st & 5th stanzas just as they are no clues. 1st stanza is a statement as to what he did and with what. Is there not new and old gold in the chest? And F can keep a secret where he hid it and he is supplying the hints in the poem as to where he hid it.

            I believe some want to believe there are hints in those two stanza, and they are over complicating things.

            IMO

    • Yeah, but if an ‘echo place’, wouldn’t the line be —

      “Hear hear me me all all and and listen listen…”

      or

      “Hear me twice and listen…”?

      • Hi Aardvark,
        That’s a good one, Wink

        Here’s my wonder ifs:

        ‘…gone alone IN there’-…If wide open spaces, there is no “in there” (except for stream or Forrest or structures) , but if in a canyon, or well or cave, amphitheater, etc…there is a possible “in there”.

        So one of my many ‘what ifs’ is …does it mean an echo?
        Perhaps not.
        Just ignore if it doesn’t fit your solve.
        Wink.

      • Copperhead & aardvarkbark,

        “So hear me all and listen good” F is simply saying for all to listen closely to the next few words. Simplify

        • I like all possibilities. Stretches away from normal…

          I’ve solved the 8 queens puzzle in fewest steps. Some computers take longer because they were programmed by logic.
          I’m no Einstein, but believe he is correct that creativity and imagination is better than knowledge.
          Logic gets us to one finite conclusion only.
          Imagination chases the leftovers.

          But logical is one method of operation to be respected so I respect your opinion very much.

          • Creativity is seeing what everyone else has seen, and thinking what no one else has thought. –Albert Einstein.

      • A beam? Hmmm… I’ve been thinking of SMILE as an arc, an arch, a circle segment. A smile reflects a happy feeling, where-as a grin (if you read all the grin accounts in the book) has a deeper ‘knowing’ quality, an expectation, a guilt or sheepishness, or, in the case of those women at the “bookstore” a wincing grin that might be caused by a sulfurous experience.

        If we shouldn’t discount any word, any word may have been chosen for its subtle differences. Those subtle differences may not be in your bank. You may have to extract them from the bank the author presented. IMO

        • Please try to relax; relaxation can help a choreographer to do
          her job [well].

          I hope nobody has a “gut feeling” that is a symptom of kidney
          problem(s).

          The above is my opinion.

    • The poem has beginning, middle (content) and end.

      If a person who “NEVER” heard of Forrest Fenn finding this poem, how would he know what it was about?

      At first he explains “WHAT” he did. Stanza 1.

      In the middle he explains “WHERE” he did. Stanza 2 to 4. (clues)

      In the end he explains “WHY” he did. Stanza 5 and 6.

      Detail: The word “cold” in Stanza 6 refers to “COLD OF GOLD” (it is not clue or tip, nor snow, ice or cold water)

  29. Forrest refers to a few different metals being cold. In TTOTC the bronze Indian head sculpture in is gallery is cold to the touch. This cold could be referencing the bronze chest. Also an iron rooster, that I believe is from a SB and the latest book, being heavy, cold, and brown. Jim had to put it next to a heater to warm it up.

    • His boss frosty was cold too aaron! But more to the pie eating panhandler, young forrest!

  30. Seeker –

    I do n’t know if you saw this before when I posted it.
    Quite literally it looks to me like Fenn did a websearch for “how to write poem”.
    Then he went to one of the pages and learned how to write his ballad.

    Here is an example. What do you think? Did Fenn read this?

    http://www.webexhibits.org/poetry/explore_famous_ballad_make.html

    Lugnutz

    Why am I posting here? The link from the email took me here.

    • Lugz,
      Possible, but fenn is a self-taught person in style.
      Sure he was lesson in flying, navigation etc etc even grade sKool.
      But he’s from a different era than most here. In the younger years he lived, many learned by doing and figuring the problems out, compared to, schooling where some today learn basic cooking, simple mechanics, wood working even environmental crop design and harvesting…

      I personally, can’t say no to the idea he looked up information as you linked to… But I think he would have spent time reading poetry, seeing/ self tutoring the different approaches and even combining them by tweaking this and that.
      Conventional, is pushed on kids today and less on problem solving by doing… it becomes robotic in nature for most to [ example Google this and that ] look for answers.

      IMO… fenn wanted this to be his creation [ the poem, not so much the challenge of a treasure hunt ]. But with that said… he had to read, see, examine poetry somehow… I just think because poetry caught mind and enjoyment, and he chose to present clues through this avenue because of the freedom bending Conventional teachings…. The link you provide may help us in thought [ like myself, because normally, I could careless about poetry ] more than fenn using it to learn from.
      My check and balance for my comments would be;
      fenn went to a foundry and told certain metals can not work [meld] together… I’m sure he didn’t look up information to solve that problem when making the fire pokers. That is just one example of the top of my head…
      Simple answer would be… IDK
      Personal answer… probably not

      • Lug and others…Quite some time ago I researched some of Fenn’s earlier books and the folks close to Fenn at those times. In some of those reviews it was noted how “over the top” and meticulous Fenn was in his thorough research on every topic. Checked, double checked and researched beyond reproach in most cases. His lists of resources are exhaustive… I would venture a guess and say that Fenn was fairly “well versed”(pun intended) when he wrote his poem.
        Just more blather…

        • Well I would say his more recent poems are “better” by a substantial factor. He certainly has done more research ATF.

          Read the two versions of the poem about the driftwood. Much much much better than the poem in TToTC.

          IMO
          Lugnutz

          • True to a point Lug. Let’s just say that the poem in TTOTC may have a fairly standard format…and SEEM less refined…but the “content” is more studied and labor intensive than most. In his “driftwood” attempt I believe he actually was trying to let his hair down and give a better sense of what he meant exactly with his words…without having to delve to deep. But heck…I’m no expert for sure.

          • Lug,

            Remember the poem in TToTC, masquerades as a poem and is in fact “geographical places” or directions or a map re-interpreted as a poem. Therefore it is perhaps even more interesting that as a poem its any good at all…From a strict artistic sense.

            GCG

          • Moby Dickens 11/2/2013
            “The poem in my book, is something I changed over and over again. When you read the poem, it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you I worked on that thing.”

        • Hi Lugnutz: it’s not really a fair comparison since his Chase poem had specific requirements beyond imparting mere prose. Forrest has alluded to this: “Is there a specific reason that halt and walk are the only words that do not follow the rhyme scheme?” “Yes, I was limited by my ability.” In my opinion, he sacrificed the rhyming in that word pair because he wanted at least one of those two words for another reason beyond its meaning.

          • Thanks Zap,
            That quote helped me choose between two interpretations. In one of them neither halt nor walk could be exchanged for synonyms without losing the overall meaning.

          • A favorite sequence of mine from the movie “Contact” that I feel has some parallels to Forrest’s poem architecture is when Ellie (Jodie Foster) learns that S. R. Hadden (John Hurt) has found the primer in the radio message from Vega. (Sorry for the low sound volume in the following link, it was the best one I could find online):

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ePa6eUxhkYo&feature=youtu.be&t=283

            Portion of transcript with possible Fenn relevance:

            Ellie: “You found the primer!”

            S. R. Hadden: “Clever girl! Lights… Pages and pages of data. Over 63,000 in all. And on the perimeter of each…”

            Ellie: “Alignment symbols … registration marks. But they don’t line up.”

            S. R. Hadden: “They *do*, if you think like a Vegan. An alien intelligence is going to be more advanced. That means efficiency functioning on multiple levels, and in multiple dimensions.”

          • That would explain “average intelligence” Zap as being from alien descent.

          • Zap

            I cannot add this below as the link does not result in a comment box opening.

            My favorite from a movie

            Ancient fisherman learned to sail where the warm water met the cold. The small fish would stop at the edge of the warm waters and the big fish would come out of the cold water and eat them

            Borders, edges doorways

          • zap…you are far more correct than you realize with your stated opinion…That “reason beyond its meaning” is extremely important to finding the search location…IMO

          • No one seems to read much here anymore that isn’t directed to them so I don’t mind showing you this. (Have you done it?)

            As I have gone alone in where
            And with my treasures old,
            I can keep my secret there,
            And hint of riches new and bold.

            Begin it where warm waters walk
            And take it in the canyon Brown,
            Not far, but too far to halt.
            Put in below the home of down

            Other than with your BTFTW theory, does the meaning of these lines change significantly when I flip the rhymes? In terms of how we use the poem to identify geographical locations?

            If you don’t add you name or mine, this post presents as less readily searchable.

          • Lug- come on man! dont mess with the poem!
            you tryin to make it harder than it is?
            why?

          • Lug;

            An interesting exercise.

            Stanza #1, not a whole lot of change

            Stanza #2, a LOT of change.

            Thanks, I will stick with Forrest’s version 🙂 JDA

      • Seeks –

        I posted that in part as a response to you question asking Why is there a question in the poem? The answer is (or may be) because that’s the style of the poem.

        What’s fun about that link and 100 other pages like that one is they all start with “As I”.

        Also it shjows the form. Take a stanza to let us know what we will be dicussing. Take 3 stanzas to impart your wisdom or vision. Take tw stanzas to recap.

        IMO
        Lugnutz

        • Hey Lug,

          I read post that aren’t addressed to me – when possible…

          That altering of the poem is interesting but flies in the face of Forrest comment: “don’t mess with my poem.”

          Also I feel that it significantly changes Stanza #2

          I’m with JDA on this one.

          GCG

  31. ……and in the wood
    Possibility
    in the book…paper…wood.

    ‘Chest is at handwriting’ is an anagram of dancing with the stars Fenn mentions in TTOTC book.

    Handwriting …book…or paper

    • ‘Chest is at handwriting’ is not an anagram of ‘dancing with the stars’; however ‘chest is at drawn thing’ does work as a lousy anagram for that.

      • ‘ Dancing with the stars’ anagram = handwritings chest at
        Verify here at wordplays.com

        Means in other words= The chest is at handwritings

        • Not Fenn’s chest though, necessarily…at handwritings I mean..just might be a possibility to consider. Curious coincidence though on the anagram.

          • It is interesting given the context of the treasure, but a good anagram should speak back to the original phrase with a shared context, I’m pretty sure.

            Thanks for that.

          • Anagram is the rearranging letters of words into other words

            Analogy…compares two things…..——-is like———, etc.

            I think we each have our own opinions and everyone’s opinion are highly respected, filed and catalogued.
            Thanks for all the input.

          • Clint Eastwood = Old West Action
            Dormitory = Dirty Room
            (Excellent one for President Clinton not family-friendly)

            “To be or not to be: that is the question, whether tis nobler in the mind to suffer the slings and arrows of outrageous fortune.”

            Equals:

            “In one of the Bard’s best-thought-of tragedies, our insistent hero, Hamlet, queries on two fronts about how life turns rotten.”

          • Muset, Forrest mentions ‘Dancing with the stars’ twice in the book. He puts it in final sentence of a chapter.
            The new book is covered in stars. He is fishing with the stars. He mentions many actors and international stars in his books. A blue star is placed near memorials to vets like inear Angel Fire, NM

            Stars are overly hinted at in my humble opinion only.

            It is too much of a coincidence that all the letters which make up the words – “Dancing with the stars” is the exact letters in the phrase, “handwritings chest at”.

            But I sure don’t expect everyone else to buy or believe that coincidence…nor give it any credence in their search.
            I appreciate all your thought and input very much. Thank you for doing so. You help everyone see all sides of a possibility.

          • Copperhead –
            “handwritings at chest” is as helpful as f’s multiple references to the stars.

          • Dejoka
            Thanks for your comment.

            Chest at handwritings for me means it could be at
            1. Signatures like signatures on rocks left by emigrants at many places in the west
            2. Signatures of explorers like Richard Wetherill did in the places near Mancos, Co. , Utah, New Mexico…
            3 signature letters on trees like FF did on his tree in his yard
            4. Treasures sign in Tom Miner Basin
            5. Hand prints on petroglyphs are ancient hand ‘writings’ since the natives had no other form of written language back then….no alphabet for them in other words
            6…a whole chapter about handwriting or letter and Amelia Earhart. Look at all the cursive handwriting photos in his books.
            7. One handwriting is in newest book and specifically mentions S. P. CHASE. He is on the $10,000 bill, plus many older bills also of lesser denomination. He is kin to Amelia Earhart, btw.
            8. Petroglyphs are ancient handwritten\drawn
            9. Pictographs which represent one word are called logograms so a logogram is handwritings.

            Again, this is my opinion only and everyone can discount It if they wish. Your search is yours only and I respect all tremendously.

          • All you need is the poem and “DWTS” is not in the poem.

            I think the anagram is definitely a coincidence.

          • Dajoka
            Fenn writes on page 155 of TTOTC book, “There are also other subtle clues sprinkled in the stories.”

            If he’s NOT lying to his readers………then there are other CLUES in the book!

        • Copperhead ~’But I sure don’t expect everyone else to buy or believe that coincidence…’

          Buy into it or not…
          There are quite a few ‘coincidence’ ideas in the poem. I won’t mention them because others are working on them. And they are just as good as yours in what they produce. Some relate to a place, as yours does, even some smaller location.
          Please don’t misunderstand, I’m not talking about treasure to mean treasure state for MT, or new and old to mean NM, or Why for WY i must go…I’m talking about solid looking ideas that just seem to be a must, as an answer to where.
          If so… Why are there so many places that can be found in the poem-?- with either the same method or different methods…
          I’m sure, just about an word or words using anagrams can produce some location. RM NP has 265000 or so acres, YS over 2 million ac. nevertheless any given state, with many name of locations within. I would bet I could find a match or two, or a few dozen, if I looked long enough into 167 words, but does that even remotely say Ah ha?

          I guess my real question is… Is there anything in the poem that seems to confirm this location?
          [ granted, you may have mentioned this before, I might have missed it] Because all I see is; a book mentioning and a SB.
          I could say, lol, and have, the “answers” fenn knows are, tired and weak [from the poem] to mean Medicine wheel… with lots of connections from the book and SB’s even.

    • Copperhead, the chest is wood with the letters IN on the lid. *dancing with the stars is just a footnote.
      stars, blaze, footnote, feet. get it?
      feet mark the trail as footprints. a blaze marks the trail.

      what is an anagram?

      my head hurts.

      • Dancing with the stars directs me to the Bighorn Medicine Wheel. Aldebaron, Rigel, Formalhaut are the stars the “F” cairn dances with. They form an arrow. It’s how the poem gets you to page 137 that’s tricky. You know he buried a bell somewhere along your path, just makes sense. Especially when bells are what most of the offerings are at the site. Doing the Do-Do with the stars:
        https://ibb.co/eAfceb

    • I think “wood” is simply a reference to the wood lining of the bronze chest…why?…because when you have your hands inside the chest is when he transfers title to the gold to you…JMO

      • I think wood is a “seek-no-further” tree. The reason for having to be brave. Don’t see where brave falls into the wood in the chest. Sounds more like “wood” is the forest. IDK, maybe he put sitting bulls peace pipe in there somehow. It’s wooden, he was once a brave. Lol, just rambling…

      • Suzy Q its my opinion that in the wood is a direction its the last place you go to find the treasure chest- the poem to me is only a map to get you to the treasure chest have fun and good luck

    • the dancing with the stars thing really intrigues me. I have a hunch that a little astronomy knowledge is necessary to solve the poem and navigate to the location of the chest. maybe we need to spend a little time looking at celestial maps too. just a thought.

  32. Hi all out there.i been in the woods reading and listening to the posts about the first stanza yes there are hints there but you have to know what to look for imo .you have to have the keys to start the car to get you from WWH take it in the canyon down to home of brown

  33. When Forrest says not associated with any structure does that mean that home of Brown cannot be a building? Or is it specific to the location of the chest?

    • This discussion was hot and heavy about two months ago. According to Cynthia, who is a friend of Forrest’s, Forrest told her that there is no structure associated with hoB, as well as where Indulgence is secreted.

      Some interpret this to mean that there is no structure associated with any of the clues – you will have to decide for yourself – JDA

      • JDA,

        I believe I have uncovered a unique HoB that is not “directly” related to a structure, and therein lies a paradox. Even though HoB itself is not a structure, it would not be much of a leap for me to tie it to a structure in a easy abstract kind of way.

        To say it another way, my HoB though not a structure itself, does in fact take me to one. For example, and this may not be a very good one, let’s say his brown involves a unique painting in a one-of-a-kind book and only one copy of that book was published. One (me) could argue that the book itself is the HoB. A book certainly has structure and could be very complex (RIP Mr. Clancy), but IMO it (the book) fits the HoB “stipulation” of not being a physical (my word not his) structure.

        Ditto for complex mathematical equations, formulas, and maybe even fancy baking recipes. They all have structure but IMO don’t meet the intent he related to Cynthia for what I hope is obvious to all, plus I believe many of those types of examples would be considered specialized knowledge.

        But what if there’s a building out there that happens to have the same/similiar name or relates to the book in a certain way? The book is not in that building, but in an abstract way could someone (me) argue that this building is also excluded because it’s the name that’s important and a name is not a structure? That’s my paradox.

        So I’m curious to hear your/HoD opinion if this circumstance meets the condition that HoB is not a structure?

        Take care buddy.

        Thanks ………. pinatubocharlie

        • Pina;

          You pose an interesting paradox. I can only offer an opinion. I have NO facts or inside information on what Forrest thinks or thought.

          That being said, My view would be – “Don’t make it too complicated.”

          I am at my wwwh spot. I “Take it in the canyon down.”
          I “Put in below the hoB.”

          I then take a road that heads up a mountain. The road, in its broadest sense is a “structure” since it was “made” by man. I go past the “meek Place” etc, and find the treasure….and proclaim that Forrest told an un-truth because a structure (the road) was used to get to the treasure.

          Rather absurd don’t you think? So, your “structure” may have the same or a similar name, as long as you do not use this “structure” as your hoB, but rather use the4 “painting” as your hoB, I think that you are safe. Just my opinion, but as I frequently say – “What do I know? – NADA”

          Best of luck PCharlie – JDA

          • Fair nuf JDA, but what if this structure no longer exists except in pictures or on an old map somewhere? Like his home in Temple. It no longer exists except in pictures and the memory or Forrest, Peggy, and perhaps some of the now grown up children in the family.

            Pinatubocharlie

          • Again, Just my opinion. It sounds more like you have a picture of “Brown’s Cabin.” This cabin was once at location “X”, but it has now fallen down, and rotted away. Can you use your knowle(d)ge of the existence of the cabin as your hoB?

            Forrest has said that the poem could be solved 1,000 years into the future. Will there still be knowle(d)ge of this cabin 1,000 years from now? Probably not, so I would say, “No, don’t use it.” I just do not see Forrest using something as obscure as a photo (seen only by a VERY few people) of a cabin (or other structure) that no longer exists as one of the clues. Just how I see it. JDA

          • PinatuboC –

            If you don’t mind another opinion.
            I think FF really means there are no structures involved. No home of Brown or any other structure. We go out into nature, into the mountains. The kind of place where you won’t see a structure. No museum, house, studio or cabin. This means that a lot of places that have been talked about over the years get thrown out.

            So he is telling us that home is not literal. Maybe the other clues are not “literal” either. No canyon. No water. You don’t need to go down anything. He is describing places and we need to figure out what he is describing.

            You don’t have to subsribe to my way of looking at the clues but if you don’t know where the chest is, wht not try new thinking?

            Lugnutz

          • Lugnutz: it’s a minor miracle, but we actually agree on something! No structures for any of the clues.

            But sometimes a cigar is a cigar, and a canyon is a canyon.

          • Lugnutz,
            I agree with you in the opposite order from Zaphod. You said “Maybe the other clues are not ‘literal’ either. No canyon. No water.” I completely agree. Well, you’ll find water and canyons along the way but the clues aren’t referring to them. So in this case Zaphod’s cigars might be pacifiers for 4 star generals, (i.e. veiled allegories of the cold war era) instead of just cigars.

            On the flip side I do have two clues that refer to places or things that have structures on or near them, though the clues refer to the places and not the structures. So saying that those clues are associated with structures, while literally correct, would involve splitting hairs IMO.

        • Home of Brown = property

          All over the Rockies are ranches/farms/spreads that are named for the owner or legacy owner.

          Home of Brown to me, then is a tract of land that belongs/belonged to someone named Brown. Structure/barn/silo/outhouse/tractor shed don’t matter. The property is named “Brown”.

          IMO

          • It is a decent theory on HoB. If you could find something like this would you not be able to skip to HoB? We have been told to find the first clue. How would you use the poem and a map to find this property named Brown? Only found on site walking out the clues?

  34. I appreciate the response and link.. I did do a quick search but there is so much info and opinion it’s a bit daunting..

  35. JDA,

    In all honesty, my HoB has nothing to do with the word brown or a cabin, though a cabin MIGHT play into another clue later on, I just don’t know now.

    I was simply using a picture or painting as an example. Like I said, I think it’s unique, almost obscure in a way. That said, it’s very possible I haven’t figured out the correct connection yet, but if I posted my logic for PIBHOB, I think many folks here at the HoD might be changing the way they look at the poem and very possibly where they are looking for the treasure.

    But alas, I ain’t got the goods yet and very possibly never will. However, trying to find that thing has been, and will continue to be a gas. I can only hope that keeping the gray matter working is key to me avoiding the dimentia that mom had in her later years.

    Take care………Pinatubocharlie

  36. JDA wrote: “Forrest has said that the poem could be solved 1,000 years into the future. Will there still be knowle(d)ge of this cabin 1,000 years from now? Probably not, so I would say, “No, don’t use it.” I just do not see Forrest using something as obscure as a photo (seen only by a VERY few people) of a cabin (or other structure) that no longer exists as one of the clues. Just how I see it. JDA”

    Has Forrest actually said the poem could be solved 1000 years from now? Or was he saying the treasure might not be found for 1000 years? I rather doubt the poem would actually still exist in 1000 years. MM

    • If the poem is important enough, it will exist a thousand years from now . . .
      not specifically on the same (i.e., paper) pages, but preserved, in whatever
      format is appropriate, as the words, symbols, etc. . . . Just like some historical writings have existed for more than a thousand years. I hope that the poem
      and the story of the Fenn treasure hunt does last that long, as I think that they
      are important enough to merit that longevity. All IMO.

    • Meg M.

      Why wouldn’t the poem exist 1,000 years from now? We have poems and plays that were written hundreds of years ago (William Shakespeare 1564 – 1616) The Iliad and the Odyssey written by Homer about 800 BC which makes them almost 2,000 years old, and yet we have copies of them today.

      Forrest was asked:

      How do you think this will all end?
      “Nobody is going to happen upon my treasure chest. They will have to figure out the clues and go to it. Somebody could find it this summer, or it could be a thousand years. The guy I hope finds my treasure is a redneck from Texas who’s lost his job, with a pickup truck and 12 kids and a wife to support. But nature can impact the location, you know. We can have flash floods, earthquakes, forest fires. I don’t have any control over that. I’m a bystander now.” f

      Forrest says that the treasure will not be stumbled upon – Therefore Forrest must think that the poem will be around 1,000 years from now, since it can only be found by solving the poem. JMHO – JDA – Good question though!

      • JDA-

        Didn’t one time you quoted Forrest saying something to the effect…..it is not near a human trail…but it is very close to a road.

        Is that right? Where did you get that?

        Best regards

        Billy

        • Sherif Billy;

          This is the only quote that I recall posting regarding a trail:

          “Generally speaking, there are places where one should stay on established trails; Yellowstone is one. However, it reminds me of the worn-out axiom, “If you ain’t the lead dog, the scenery never changes.” When I am in the mountains or in the desert, the last place I want to be is on a trail. Ain’t no adventure in that for me. There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty to where I hid the treasure.f

          This may not be the one you are looking for, but it is the only one I recall posting. Good huntin – Don’t stay on trails the entire time though – The scenery will never change. 🙂

          Question is – “What is meant by – ” There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty to where I hid the treasure.f…and why did he misspell Proxim(I)ty?

          How far away is “very close proximaty” (sic)?

          On page 4 of TToTC Forrest says, “I tend to use some words that aren’t in the dictionary, and others that are, I bend a little.” I wonder why he “bent” this one a bit? JDA

          • Here is the only guess I have on on proximaty:

            The roman numeral IM would = 999 so
            pro X 999 Y

            X and Y coordinates or
            X on map 999 Y

          • proxi maty. In the SB with Pickles, he gives “very close proximity” a distance. By just looking at the picture, it can be figured out. Saying proximaty, gives him his “plausible deniability”. Not in the same proxi……maty. Define proxi??? Or is it an abbreviation?

        • This conversation perks my curiosity regarding the “100/1000 years quote. I have some confusion regarding this. I get that the clues are not associated with any structure. My question is what about roads, names of campgrounds, and names of landmarks etc. Maps consist of identifying names and identifying landmarks. But as we know from history, the names of streets, highways, campgrounds, historical sites, and even National Parks are subject to change. If Forrest used any of these as “clues” it is possible the poem will not be able to be solved even 50 years from now, unless a person has access to an old map with the old identifying labels on it. Anyone have thoughts on this or could clarify it for me?

          But how else do you lead a person to a treasure without using those things?

          • KK;

            My view is that a person 1,000 years from now, attempting to solve the poem will know that it was written 1,000 years earlier, and would know that it might be important to look at OLD maps of our current era.

            This might help:

            Question posted 6/25/2014:
            Hi,
            Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years?
            Thanks ~Ron
            “Thanks Ron, thoughtful questions
            The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure”.f JDA

          • WhatIF the poem, as it stands now, be able to be solved 100 plus years ago?

            Geography doesn’t need names. We all can recognize water, land, mountains, plains, woodland on any map….and following the clues as a map.

            I mean, when your out hiking do you need a sign that say river-?- to know it’s a river?

            The information in the book is another thing.

          • KK,
            I would encourage you to read Loco’s discussion here:
            https://dalneitzel.com/2017/12/15/odds-n-ends-about-fenns-treasure-hunt-41/#comment-406102

            So you may have answered your own question in that there is a great possibility that using a map has limited benefit either today or in the future. In the beginning, he recommended thinking as the prime method for solving the clues. As far as I can tell, F never used the word map until TFTW was rolled out (2013) with the included map of the RM’s.

            Quotes with F suggesting that maps might be of some use didn’t really begin to flourish until 2014. IMO this may have just been because he realized that maps were a preferred method being employed by searchers and he’s not one to discourage any ‘reasonable’ method.

            If I have the timeline wrong here maybe Loco or JCM can chime in on this.

          • Colokid,
            Yep, I like this part of one quote;
            “I knew all along where I wanted to hide the treasure so I didn’t need a map or any information to write the poem. Everything was in my head. It took me a while to get the wording exactly how I wanted it…”

          • Seeker,
            Yeah, lots of potential meat in that statement if one wants to think about it. Could be important insight into how the poem was structured.

            But don’t sell this part short: “It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, at least in their mind”
            Is it really just a mental exercise?

            And: Huffington post 2011- . “All you have to do is **think about the nine clues and follow them in order.**”

          • @Colo,

            Well, he did reference ‘map’ a couple of times prior to TFTW……but seeminglt NOT in the sense that they would provide any assistance.

            One is his complete comment, of which you posted part of to Seeker.:

            August 23, 2011 – – “One man asked if he should buy a topographical map and I told him he’d be better served reading the book again.” …Fenn looked at me. “All you have to do is think about the nine clues and follow them in order.”…. in the deserts of the southwest. http://www.huffingtonpost.com/margie-goldsmith/2-million-santa-fe-treasu_b_932299.html

            and

            Feb. 4, 2013 – – http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-author-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

            Q: Do you have any regrets; or more importantly, would you like to see anything different in the ways people are chasing the prize?
            “What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots.”

            Here, the question was regrets or would like to see the Chase approached differently??? Seems to me that the back-handed answer was that he really had expected folks to approach solving the Poem from a different perspective than maps and GE???

            FWIW……….loco

          • I agree with you Loco, early on f seemed to not think that immediately going to maps was the method he devised and expected his chest to be found, just thinking, analyzing, logic, and imagination… and probably a few more things that I missed there.

            Over the years, with everyone so focused on maps, and searchers trying to find their place to search, I think f finally just figured that with the sheer number of people looking and going out botg, maybe someone will make the lines cross and find it sooner or later.

            But I do think someone has figured something out (a few who are in tight focus with a word that is key) and may finally make the final breakthrough this year (f’s gut feeling), from analyzing f’s comments over the years, I suspect this search party (possibly a family) burst onto the scene in the late spring/early summer of 2013. And I suspect f has been watching them with interest since that time, probably being surprised they didn’t find the chest in 2016 or 2017, and maybe even in 2015.

            My opinion, which is realistically worth nothing, on using a map is that it is probably only of benefit AFTER the first clue is figured out. You can then go to a detailed map of that area (thread a tract) and only then begin to identify some of the other clues, but I don’t think that they are easily identified — just the opposite, each is still difficult to correctly identify. Each clue is challenging and requires significant effort and thinking to properly understand what each means, and in the process, correctly align it to a specific geographical location on a map.

            For all the comments that f has made, there are some interesting things that I am surprised people haven’t put together which really hits at the idea of NOT using or looking at a map to find or figure out the first clue. I wrote up some thoughts on it to post on my website blog, but by the time I finished writing it up a couple months ago, it was so enlightening I decided against posting it. But then it is only one of more than several blog posts that I haven’t posted for similar reason.

          • FWIW…It is possible that Fenn meant exactly what he said. Basically…he was surprised by the number of people using maps and GE.
            Don’t forget that Fenn has cited….”[Excellent] research…”. Is there another way? Look at it this way; If you are a searcher from out of the area where the treasure is…a map is probably going to help. This is true whether or not there is an alternate.

          • “Success sometimes hides in squinting wrappings, but a delicate new bow, if tied correctly, can widen eyes.”
            ” I wrote this someplace a few years ago and maybe you’ll think it’s worth remembering, Imagination isn’t a technique, it’s a key. f “

          • Also…I agree JCM that your idea about figuring out the first clue NOT using a map is probably very wise. This does seem to align better with the early comments.
            Too easy to go off on the wrong tangent thinking about later clues.

          • Colokid & loco, Thank you for the link, I appreciate it! I understand what you (& Forrest) are saying in regards to using a map to solve the clues, rather than thinking about them. I spent 3-4 years thinking about the first clue off and on and had come up with 2 answers before I really looked at a map or got as invested as I am now in the chase. I stayed off the blogs until Feb. of this year because I wanted my solve to come from my own research.

            That being said, after coming up with the ideas for WWWH, I had to go to a map. And not being familiar with any of the in play states, the map was pretty helpful.

            My question is related to understand not only Forrest’s MO, but other searchers as well. Are people using the names of rivers/canyons/streets/campgrounds or are they identifying WWWH then putting BOTG and using only geographic features of the land to solve for each clue. I have seen some people ask or explain a prior solve by using primarily landscape references, which one would only be able to identify with BOTG, making the utilization of named landmarks on a map useless.

            His comment about the clues not existing when he was a kid, leads me to believe that the locations where certainly there but had not been named, made into a campground, or road to the location. But knowing that roads can be torn up and redirected, campgrounds can be renamed, statues/monuments can be torn down, made me question his expectation that the clues would still be able to be followed to the chest in 50-500 years. Hence my confusion.

          • JCM, Loco, Colokid, and all…
            I agree with the premise, clues can not be deciphered looking at a map. It’s one thing to understand a clue’s reference first and foremost… then find / locate it on a map.
            The idea doesn’t take away the importance of the “right map” idea. IMO, you can look at maps all day long, but without references and location… ya might as well be looking at a map of China.
            Hence the comment “GE ‘and/or’ a good map. GE give more available, searchable area with zoom capability vs. buying a hundred smaller maps. Apparently size does matter…

            But I still think we’re missing one point; he followed the clues when he hid the chest. Yet, he didn’t need a map to write the poem. Two things come to mind;
            1. He simply had to past each clue’s reference.
            2. He had to utilize the clues [ in part; ‘planning’ and ‘observation’ ] in order to complete (completed?) the poem. In this case “complete” means “solve” as in the 10″ sq spot.

            My point; While we have been told we can figure out all the clues at home, “in theory” ~ even with the assistance of map[s]… however, to “complete” the challenge there might be more to all this than simply stomping point to point.

            LOL, I mean he wrote the poem, create the clues, knew the hidey spot’s location like the back of his hand… and ‘he’ still had to ‘follow’ the clues to ‘complete the poem’
            Follow; in this case means, an understanding of what to do.

          • JCM, Loco, et al,
            Thanks for the feedback.
            JCM said:” I agree with you Loco, early on f seemed to not think that immediately going to maps was the method he devised and expected his chest to be found, just thinking, analyzing, logic, and imagination… and probably a few more things that I missed there.”

            This nails my point exactly. Yes he did ‘mention’ maps indirectly earlier (and rarely) but not in the since that they would be a primary tool to solving the clues. And the ‘topo’ map quote that Loco mentioned seems to minimize the use of maps; as if he is discouraging this.

            So if using maps is not a good primary tool and we are left with mainly using our minds (handicap for me LOL), that seems to really make solving the first two clues all the harder….more of a visualization exercise. But I guess we knew that already.

            JCM, I’d like to read your deleted blog post! ha, ha

          • The mad dash to pore over maps was probably in every original searcher’s wheel house right out of the gate…it only makes sense.
            I believe the kick start to Fenn commenting about maps in particular came after Saunier’s monologue about land rights etc. and Forrwst Fenn’s response which included the infamous “66,000 links” [clue]…which clearly talks about early land survey [measurements]. April 2012

          • Colo, Seeker KK et al;

            To use a map, or not to use a map, that is the question. To me, the question should be WHEN to use a map. Without understanding the poem, can one know what the “correct” map is? My belief is – no.

            I have said for a long time now, that if one does not understand or know of a very obscure meaning of “the wood” one can not correctly identify the “correct” wwwh.

            Without this knowle(d)ge, one is just throwing darts. Once you know this obscure meaning, you will be led to the “correct” map, and the quest can begin with assurance and confidence.

            I think that this is the reason that Forrest wanted us to research, study, analyze etc. BEFORE one goes to a map. Just the opinion of an old fool – JDA

          • JD,
            Is it fair to say that your thought process is ‘carved in stone’…pun intended. LOL

            I think what this thread is about is the possibility that there is no real commercial map that will play a role in solving the poem. Perhaps the ‘good map’ is the poem. He told us it’s a map right? Sure he’s encouraged us to look at maps for research but he’s been vague on what the actual benefit is. On the other hand he has directed us back to the poem and the book forever. There’s a consistency in the historical ATF’s and evolution of the Chase that can lead one to conclude that this is mental/visual map. That being the case, it would be paramount to know where to start ‘looking’….the starting point.

            This is not a new concept but I think it’s emerging a leading contender in my slow mind. But I realize this is a tough sell to most searchers.

          • Colokid;

            There are many, many quotes relating to the use of a map, the correct map etc. I like this one the best:

            Forrest Fire on June 6, 2014 at 1:15 pm said:
            OK folks,
            Dal just appraised me of the panic comments on this blog. It’s time for everyone to sit down in the shade, lean back, have a sip of sarsaparilla, and try to relax. The treasure is safely hidden where I left it. If I ever discover that it has been found I will announce it in big letters so everyone can see.
            Several years ago Pam told me that the treasure had been found because it was not where she thought it should be. She is one of about 150 people who have made that claim.
            I would like to reiterate: Please go back to the poem and look at maps for your answers. Not every noun in TTOTC is a hint. If you can’t solve the first clue you should not spend your money searching. My guess is that the person who is successful will very quietly solve the clues and walk to the treasure with a smile on their face.”

            “I would like to reiterate: Please go back to the poem and look at maps for your answers” To me, this says it all. – Once you know which map!!! JDA

          • Ken ‘…which clearly talks about early land survey [measurements]. April 2012.’

            Right… I personally didn’t take away the land rights part of that comment as helpful or even the idea of 8.25 miles away from SF’s northern section… I took it as; the clues link together… not that they are just consecutive, but as fenn later put it, “contiguous.”

            A fence post or telephone pole is just that… a single pole/post. When you have more, you an idea of the ‘big picture’ and what they really refer to.
            I think the clue’s act as the same premise…. the idea is… to know what a fence is; as a boundary line for property, or the telephone system and its use as such, is more important than just a single pole or post vs. point to point / post to post.

            The big picture idea is how all the clues connect as a whole, as one, as a description, rather than simply point [pole, post] or single piece. This is why some can’t connect with my idea that; the clues can be of one or two ‘places’ yet very close in nature, of what the place describes.

            My example is “take it in” as a view, rather than a physical movement… IF so… the “put in” means, with our ‘eyes’. We see where fenn wants us to see.
            Down, may not be a map idea as south but more about the correct direction of looking… which could be north. Down in this case, means ‘line of sight’ ~ like looking ‘down’ the barrel of a gun… no matter what direction that gun is pointing.
            [heck, the gun could be pointing straight up and the use of ‘down’ would still be correct]

            Subtle, unintentional, not deliberately placed possible hint for thought?
            fenn walked to the grave yard ‘down’ the road which was actually north, in the story. It wouldn’t matter if it was E W or elevation… the usage of down [ in this case ] is simply a term for line of sight [not unlike the barrel of a gun]. In the poem, this applies to ‘viewing’ for those terms, rather than movement, [theoretically] without forcing unknown distance beforehand or forcing alternative transportation. ‘Not far’ as a reasonable viewing distance, and ‘too far to walk’ as, don’t walk.

            But again, That’s just me trying to ‘simplify’ the clues without forcing/guessing unknowns into the an already complex poem.

          • Sure JD,
            The GREAT Panic of 2014….I remember it well. I don’t know if you were in the game at the time but I suspect you are overlooking the context on that one.

            While I admit that this ‘sound’s like an outlier, I would encourage you to review everything that was said above (including the timeline) before you throw all your eggs in one basket. You may recall that F has said on a number of occasions that the TC is buried although in most every other case he corrects anyone that concludes that. There are miss-speaks and you have to be able to accept that those exist and sort them out. What’s the quote about allowing him to make an occasional mistake?

            Anybody can toss out 1 quote and try to form a solution around it. Tying the majority of the quotes together in a comprehensive message is what’s going to crack this open….IMO.

          • Seeker…my Saunier post was only to narrow timeline when “map” discussions began to be popular…with Fenn’s comments. Truthfully, I do not think anyone can be successful without incorporating the proper map of the proper location…regardless of the distance between clues. Very early searchers got close…probably throwing a dart at a decent interpretation of a wwh that they picked out on a map. The third clue KICKED their butts !

          • JDA and gang,

            I love this particular discussion precisely because of the Forrest comment that you posted:

            “Please go back to the poem and look at maps for your answers. Not every noun in TTOTC is a hint. If you can’t solve the first clue you should not spend your money searching. My guess is that the person who is successful will very quietly solve the clues and walk to the treasure with a smile on their face.”

            Combine that with:

            “I think that person will be positive in their attitude and deliberate in their actions. No one has any secret information that will take them to the hiding place. It’s in the poem for all to see.”

            And finally the classic:

            “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental.”

            If you take all those comments and tie them to the books preamble to the poem:

            — the poem contains nine consecutive clues (if followed precisely) “will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.”

            The searcher who discovers the clues will:
            – Be positive
            – Be deliberate
            – Be confident
            – Be precise
            – Be smiling

            I ask everyone; What does this suggest you about the nature of the treasure hunt and the clues?

            GCG

          • JUNE 2014

            Normally I would not comment on what is said on the blogs but since there seems to be so much acrimony on two of them I will.

            First, I do not own Dal’s blog and he has never been in my employ. I sometimes send him things and he frequently declines to post them.

            Second, I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.

            Third, I had not heard of Christ of the Mines Shrine in Silverton, Colorado until many months after I hid the treasure.

            Forth, there is some geographical dispute about whether Bandelier National Monument is in the Rocky Mountains but since it is shown on the map in my Too Far to Walk book it must be considered within the search area.

            Fifth, I have never consciously misled any searcher or privately given a hint or clue I thought would help someone find the treasure.

            Sixth, I think I will be a little let down if someone finds the treasure in the next several years but I will quickly recover. It is out of my hands now.

            Seventh, there has been talk about some searchers receiving under-the-table clues that will help them find the treasure. Those accusations are false. I have, A wife, two daughters, two sons-in-laws, seven grandkids, one great grandkid, a cousin, a nephew and his wife. I like all of them better than I like Dal so that makes him 17th on the list to get clues from me. The fact that none of them have found the treasure should speak for itself.

            Eighth, I have received word from three ladies who wanted me to know that they are no longer in the search. They have fear of finding the treasure and being branded a harlot. Please folks, let’s try to get the blog conversations out of the gutter.

            Ninth, I reserve the right to be wrong once in a while.

            I guess I could have just copied the ninth. :(.

            He’s right JDA, there are some quotes where f said the chest weighed 44 pounds. Other quotes on the coins, being 254.
            I think f has covered his bases, he always has that plausible deniability factor working, or the plain ol’ reserve the right to be wrong. From so much info, there will be miss-speaks.
            As far as other stuff, I’ve been saying for awhile that using a map to begin with is a distraction from solving the poem. I think one only needs a map once solved, to find the spot and tract a path.
            Not far but too far to walk, sounds like he’s telling us what we need to walk. What do we have “to walk”? We have to walk “too far”. How far is “too far”? It is a long distance. That is all we know.
            The clues, Loco reminded me a little while back that the spot would be a clue. That is the thing, since the clues go in order, and there may be hints in the book scattered, in the poem once you solve for a clue, that is what the clue is. So, we know line 5 is the first clue. The poem isn’t scattered, so any hint to wwwh must be in the first stanza. And, they could only hint, once you get to line 5, that solves for the first clue. Using later info in the poem doesn’t work if you need to solve first clue to second and etc….So basically, line 5 has to solve for wwwh. Cannot say line 20 or 17 or whatever hints to wwwh, that would be bypassing other clues for one, and if those later lines solve for wwwh is, then they become the clue. You then have to deal with the ATF about f not giving any info to solve for wwwh correctly. That is a tough one to get around. How do you solve when the author flat out tells you that you cannot? Logic dictates that you cannot solve for wwwh, but you can solve for a “starting point”, and that is where wwh will be. Referenced.
            We only truly know of two clues. wwwh and the blaze, and he has told us we cannot solve for them correctly. So how is it everyone has those clues solved? Too much energy being spent on trying to figure what a clue is, maps, and guessing rather then solving the poem.
            there is no real commercial map that will play a role in solving the poem, exactly Kid. It’s a distraction for those solving the poem incorrectly to come up with a force fit solve.
            And I reserve the right to be totally wrong, but not in this case…I agree with you 100%…Whatever that’s worth.

  37. JDA, Thanks for your thoughts on this, and the quote from FF. Again this is one of those ambiguous “how to interpret” responses. “The clues did not exist when I was a kid, but the places did.” So either
    1. The clues did not exist when he was a kid because he had not created them yet
    or
    2. The areas that the clues pertain to, must have only been recognized by name in some sort of way he can reference in a clue as he aged.

    If that makes any kind of sense to anyone else.

    Certainly something to think about.

    • The fourth line of the poem may answer this question:

      “And hint of riches new and old.”

      Maybe it’s not “riches” new and old.

      Maybe it’s “hint” new and old.

      New and old “clues” of riches.

      In 500 years, “EVERYTHING” in the chest will be “old”.

      This stanza is timeless, suits us or 500 years from now.

      Whoever reads the poem will know that he will need information from the past to solve it, maybe even we need it.

  38. Or, perhaps a place like Quake Lake which did not exist when he was a kid. Mother Nature did her work when he was an adult.

  39. Speaking of the topic nine clues:

    Look how easy it is to find places using the Pure Poem. (2nd solution put here)

    WWWH = Exit NM to Colorado
    CD = upload to WY
    TFTW = Yellostone
    HoB = Exit from Yellowstone to Montana
    No meek = Montana (warrior state)
    The end nigh = west of montana
    In the paddle = face nature of MT
    HL and WH = MT Mountains and Lakes RMs
    Been wise = Wise River MT (in the middle of RMs)
    Blaze = Wise River Airport
    Next to the airport lane there seems to be a circle that marks the location. (looks like a key or a clock.)

    https://www.google.com/maps/@45.7731534,-112.9744906,138m/data=!3m1!1e3

  40. Searchers,
    I’ve read recent posts, relating to the nine clues and (a) structure.
    According to the marks on our (self and kids) map, the following is (narrowly) true:

    It is not associated with a structure.
    (To avoid any misunderstanding, that was a paraphrase, not a quote.)

    Safe searching, everyone!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  41. Searchers,
    Unless I’m mistaken, Forrest has never said that the clues or the places that the clues refer to “were or were not” associated with any structure. What I remember is that he said the “treasure” is not associated with any structure. I take that to mean that the location of the treasure (the hidey spot) is not associated with a (any) structure, period. To my knowledge he has never said that the “home of Brown” is or is not associated with a (any) structure, or that any clue or its location is or is not associated with a (any) structure.

    So please stick to the facts of what he has said, not the hearsay of others no matter how close they or you think they are to Forrest. And that goes for anyone. Forrest is King in this chase and his words and only his words are to be taken as fact.

    If I’m wrong and have missed out on other quotes from Forrest regarding this subject then I do apologize for my rant. Please let me hear from you if you have other facts.

    Thanks

      • Exactly……this is what I’m saying. Cynthia is recalling from her talk with Forrest. This not from Forrest himself, she could have misunderstood what he was saying or he may have heard her story differently because he’s hard of hearing or she may have left out other important information while telling us her story. Just as I said, if it doesn’t come from Forrest himself then it’s useless information and can throw the whole chase off in the wrong direction.

        Just a caveat to all searchers.

        • Also, can you trust someone’s word who is also looking for a 1 or 2 million dollar treasure? I wouldn’t count on it.

          If there are no challenges to my above statement at 7:27 pm then you must agree that “the home of Brown” can be associated with a (any) or many structures.

          • ManOwar: I trust Cynthia, not that I hadn’t already convinced myself that there aren’t any structures associated with ANY of the clues. Excepting pyramids, man-made structures don’t last millennia. I truly can’t understand why anyone would think Forrest would want something unnatural in close proximity to where he hid the chest, let alone use such an ephemeral artifact as one of his clues. Forrest walks the road less traveled.

          • Partner ManOwar,

            Well, if you’re so sure of that, why do you need our acceptance?

            And then … why would I trust someone like you, who is ALSO disputing this 1 million dollars ???

            Who guarantees me that you are not trying to divert our attention ???

            “Where” FF said that something was associated with “any” structure ???

            It’s your “opinion” against Cynthia’s testimony …

            Please “do not disqualify” other researchers (Cynthia) to try to confirm their “theories”.

            Leave it to when you have the treasure in “your” hands.

            Do not get me wrong, but I think you’ve gotten past the point.

            Here we are all partners in the search.

            Think about it.

            Good luck on the hunt.

          • Zap and Marcelo,

            I’m not saying that Cynthia is untrustworthy, I’m saying she could or could not be. Anyone can be, even if you know them well. You don’t have to look far to see it in our world. She could be the most trustworthy person in the world, I like what I have seen of her, but I don’t think she or any of us is beyond misunderstanding words spoken, especially from Forrest who’s very hard of hearing and he may have not understood exactly what she was saying.

            Zap, I didn’t say that there was something unnatural in close proximity to his hidey spot. There may be unnatural things along the way, who knows? See what I mean about misunderstanding?

            Marcelo,
            I don’t need your or anyone’s acceptance with my opinion. and, yes I said it was my opinion several times in my comments. I guess you haven’t noticed …hmmm, I not trying to convince anyone, I’m only stating facts and giving me opinion on the. Take it or leave it.
            Another one misunderstanding the point.

            There are no guarantees in this chase, you just have to make the best of it. Good luck.

    • ManOwar,
      Second hand or not… I personally never considered a structure being involved with any clue, but that’s just me.
      However, here’s a WhatIF… all the clues are of the same place?
      I’m not talking about a mile or half a mile, but more like 1000′.
      Fenn has stated; marry the clues [ plural ] to “A” place on a map. Would it be fair to say, one place for all the clues?

      The Idea of fenn saying [ from second hand info ] a searcher was talking about “hoB” [paraphrasing] ~do you remember I said the treasure is not associated with a structure… could mean, by association… the entire ‘solve’ to “find” the treasure.

      So, while we can’t confirm it as 100%… it does seem that all the clue references could be dissociated with any structure.
      Add the known comment of “marry to A place” and other comments about down the road 100- 1000 plus years, and yet more comments about geography might help… and a pattern of unlikely-hoods start to emerge.

      LOL that is not to say that in the future a structure of some kind couldn’t pop up, but if fenn wanted this to be his final “mountain” resting place, I would think it, has and should be, the same and for many many years to come. Logically speaking/thinking of course.

      • Seeker, I could agree with your “what if” except for one thought. That is 1000 ft., It’s not to far to walk don’t you think? So the one place thing IMO is not feasible. I do think that all of the clues could be non- associated with a structure, but not likely; that’s because of his statement concerning that the clues didn’t exist 100 years ago but most of the places did. If most of the places did and some didn’t then how would one explain the new places that weren’t there. Did they just appear from nowhere?

        The logical reason is that they were put there somehow, by whom? If by man then they are structures. How could a place not exit on this earth and then begin to exist? The only other thought is Mother Nature, like volcano eruptions or other freaks of nature that has occurred in the last hundred years in the RM area.

        This is why IMO that there are some sort of structures that some of the poem’s clues refer to. But, it is possible that none of the clues refer to any structures. He did say that all the clues refer to a geographical location ( that is if I remember correctly), so each clue location has a geographical location. Gee …. everything on earth has that, no surprise there, except that each clue is a certain place and not some metaphysical or mythical thought.

        So we are left with “yes and no” as to structure or one place. Your guess is as good as mine.

        • There is one other way I can think of that a clue can exist that did not exist before and still not be a human structure. If the blaze involved an etching in a rock by FF then it would technically not be a human structure, but a modification of existing geological structure. This would make it a clue that did not exist when he was a kid.

        • ManOwar,
          When chatting about clue’s references, it is different to the concept of what clues reference’s could refers to. So the line “not far, but too far to walk” needs to be thought of in different manners.
          Lets say wwwh refers to a waterfall. It’s a single location in itself. One end of the falls in drawing its waters from the other end. There is definitely no paddle involved [ using paddle as; traversing a waterway ] So, not far, is the drawing of water from top to bottom… regardless of height [ unknown distance ].
          The idea of ‘too far to walk’ could mean different things to different theories as well, in this case… no need to walk [“but” refer to nevertheless or excluiding in meaning]. Its to far away from the chest, IF you walk to the bottom of the falls.
          This is where “take it in” could be a view rather than a physical action.
          If you use that part of the line as, a literal movement of the searcher only, then this idea can’t work… I’m saying the line might be telling us, there is no need to walk away.
          So, this idea has the clues within a 1000′ for a concept of an type of geographical location having all the clues in the same location.

          Not far, but too far to walk can also refer to time, or over time. example; fenn wrote stories in is memoirs that will be too far to walk, back in time, even though it is within a single life span [ not far ].
          This is more a metaphorical concept… but the same can work for a clue’s reference should the clues refer to geography over time… and that might relate to fenn’s thinking down the road centuries from now, and, why movement of the RMs will have an impact on the clues [ 3009 ].

          How can the clues refer to something that wasn’t around when fenn was a kid [at least one clue]? Earth Quake lake and it general area fits that idea very well. Not only did a mountain move, a river was block and ground heaved and/or sank 20′.
          While there are man-made structure in the area, buildings, a dam etc. None would affect the clues in this case. fenn didn’t say a structure wasn’t around.. he said a structure is not associated… { and as you said… nature / natural events is the possibility of not existing when fenn was a kid.} 1/2 a mountain gone, land moved, and a creation of a lake.

          You asked; ~’If most of the places did and some didn’t then how would one explain the new places that weren’t there. Did they just appear from nowhere?’

          I hope the above show how something [ like a lake ] can do just that… appear out of nowhere. Another thought; a place doesn’t always mean a physical object. Such as a structure. it simply means a position/location of a space.

          Or is it more feasible, that we need to place a structure in with the clues… that may not be around in 10, 20, 50 years, nevertheless in 3009 or beyond. Fenn’s family home [TX] is no longer where it was, right? The fenn’s cabin [MT] in the book is no longer there, right? The wooden bridge at Isa Lake in YS is not longer there as wood, but now steel and cement… Structures are too unreliable for a clue..imo. especially when man is the major influence.

          • Hello Seeker. These are good thoughts. The recent “Featured Question” may suggest Earthquake Lake to the “habit” as being a “fault” of ours. May be the “Just heavy loads and water high” in the poem.

          • Seeker,

            I’ll make this short for you, although any structure might be at the place of a clue in today’s year or before it as you say the structure can be removed or destroyed, but the place in geographical term remains. Fenn’s family home my be gone but the geographical location (place) will remain until the end of earth’s time. As the other possibilities you mentioned also have a permanent geographical location.

            IMO, it is more likely that the places that weren’t around when he was a kid were man made structures of some sort, even a man made lake or an airport.

            Is “not far, but too far to walk” even a clue? Does it have a geo..location? It just may only be part of a clue, i.e., BIWWWHH, ATIITCD, NFBTFTW. All one clue WWWH and the rest are only directions. Sorry, I said I’ll make this short, couldn’t help myself having too much fun.

            As to NFBTFTW, IMO again, 1000′ area in any case is not too far. He didn’t say to far to climb, swim, swing, look, or any other means of being too far. He said It’s too far to walk, so how would one think 1,000′ is too far to walk? IMO, it needs to be much longer that 1000′. In fact in his book TFTW he even said that about 10 miles is too far for him to walk. What else does one need to understand NFBTFTW?

          • PD,
            I don’t think fenn actually meant the answer was really about him. The idea, imo, might fall to many of us… folks need to be more efficient in there actions when searching, and get out to search.
            { That is almost a proven factor with all the first two clues comments and going by everything else… inefficient solves}

            As I said before; Inefficient would not be a word I would associate with fenn.

      • Well if 2 short trips from a sedan. Which drove to where it was parked and if found there. A short search to find FF lying on top of his treasure. No poem no chase not knowing what is beneath him.
        Human structures and trails would be associated. Just not near
        the spot. And why is he on top of it. After hiding it he wrote the
        poem to follow what he did. He went to a place and 2 trips to
        leave it. An x on a map. A sedan and 2 trips. You got me.

    • Shortly after the “Not associated with a structure” comment, Forrest and Shiloh did a radio interview. At the very end, Shiloh said that the only reason that they said “structure”, was that the TV network didn’t want them to say “Outhouse” during the interview. They didn’t want people digging up outhouses.
      I don’t have the details of the date or which radio station anymore, as I had a computer crash and didn’t have it backed up. (Stupid I know)
      When I heard that comment, I thought, Structure is still in play!
      So hear me all and listen good.

  42. I think I read something like the meek would not cross rivers except at real shallow
    locations like buffalo ford crossing. So maybe home of brown could be a river with Brown trout. Maybe some where below a river and the direction is across it. Maybe the poem has locations and a direction. So it will lead you to it . If you understand what is said. Imo there
    is a structure but the treasure is not there. No place for the meek is a direction. The only
    one and the key. IMO. Also IMO I totally doubt myself and think its not there.
    I thought of a young FF looking down at a river to spot the fish. I wonder how is it going to be found this summer. I don’t plan on ever going to get it. Just kidding. I am sure someone
    one day will figure it out and go get themselves a treasure. Good luck to all this summer.
    Summer as in all snow melted.

    • for what it’s worth ff said he has a gut feeling it will be found this summer. seems plausible someone has already solved it.

      • Gut feelings are really thoughts – in the brain. FF has reason to
        believe the TC will be found soon. All IMO.

    • I also think BTSWMG is a confirmation statement about the importance
      of the direction statement in the poem. IMO. Walk to that spot and face
      that direction and anywhere within sight. distance unknown and not a
      straight line direction. maybe into the woods. It is little help after that.
      several days searching probably. But worth it. I am probably so far off
      in IMO . and no interest in BOTG. Or finding it. It would be cool if someone
      would find it. Not a concern of mine.
      Good luck to everyone.

  43. Lugnutz,

    I absolutely don’t mind another opinion, that’s why I opened the door.

    I was actually in your camp when I first began the Chase, spending a lot of time investigating Slough Creek because I was convinced it was in that area for some time. But then I started finding things in the poem that slowly changed my position on where it is hidden. As a result I’ve moved on, not only from Yellowstone, but remote areas in general.

    I understand I’m swimming against a strong current going down this road, but I have my reasons, just like you have yours. I’d love to share them, but you know I can’t.

    Please take care and good luck in your search this year.

    Pinatubocharlie

    • pinatoobeo….whatever charlie! i searched Slough Creek extensively in 2013.

      found item of interest: skippy peanut butter jar circa 1973 next to a rock. glass jar with the name Skippy emblazoned on the bottom of jar. no lid.

      yes, as in brother Skippy holding up a rock.*

      i was at the time without metal detector nor shovel. dangerous place. elk skull and antlers nearby. left before dark. didnt want to be predator chicken dinner. lol. if ya know what i mean. well, i was just scared not really chicken. im too big!

      *see: TTOTC photo of Skippy holding up a rock.

      i think.

  44. I’d like to share some thoughts I had on the 9 clues and the poem today. Maybe not right but I try to look at the poem in different ways and this is one of them:

    Treasures is the only word in the poem that has 9 letters and there are 9 clues. What if we looked for each letter in treasures to help determine which lines are clues. So we look for the first line, within the start of the clues, that has a T in it, and so on. It is clear that stanza 1 and stanza 5 are very similar and each line can have the same meaning so that goes along with my line of thinking in this theory. The clues will have capital letters below to spell out treasures. Anyway, it doesn’t mean I subscribe to it but would like to share and hear any feedback:

    As I have gone alone in there – go to location of the treasure
    And with my TREASURES bold, – bold in the poem to show the clues to get to it
    I can keep my secret where, – secret hidden in the poem
    And hint of riches new and old. – hints to follow

    Begin iT where warm waters halt – 1 T
    And take it in the canyon down, – Not a clue because the second letter, “R”, is missing
    Not faR, but too far to walk. – 2 R
    Put in bElow the home of Brown. – 3 E

    From there it’s no plAce for the meek, – 4 A
    The end iS ever drawing nigh; – 5 S
    There’ll be no paddle Up your creek, – 6 U
    Just heavy loads and wateR high. – 7 R

    If you’vE been wise and found the blaze, – 8 E
    Look quickly down, your queSt to cease, – 9 S
    But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
    Just take the chest and go in peace.

    So why is it that I must go – go to the location of the treasure
    And leave my trove for all to seek? – left a trove of clues for all to seek
    The answers I already know, – he knows the answers to the secret hidden in the poem
    I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak. – stanza is done move on to the hints

    So hear me all and listen good, – pay attention to the next few lines for the hints
    Your EFFORT will be worth the COLD. – hints
    If you are BRAVE and in the WOOD – hints
    I give you title to the gold. – the gold is yours

          • Yes, I figured that out 🙂 How is the visa coming along? Will you be searching this year?

          • Marcelo;

            May I remind you of “Rule #8” listed at the top of every thread – under “Rules” – It reads: “Don’t post comments under more than one name. Changing your name on the blog causes confusion to other readers. Some folks change their name often and carry on conversations with their various “personalities”. If you are caught doing this you will be banished from this blog.”

            Make sure that Dal is aware that you have dropped one screen name, and are now using the new one.

            This will save confusion – Happy Hunting – JDA

          • JDA,

            For security reasons, I think it’s best not to use my full name and where I live. (very exposed)

            But if this is a very serious problem, I will not participate.

            OK no problems.

            Excuse me.

          • McB – it’s a smart move to not provide your real name. Who knows – you might be the finder. I know you are from the “South” but your secret is safe with me.

            Obrigado for all of your candid posts.

          • McB is a great screen name. Just make sure Dal knows that this is the screen name you will be using from now on – Just a suggestion – JDA

          • You must know, because my first comment was pending waiting … I do not know what it’s called … when someone has to approve …
            And after so many posts he must have seen / noticed …

          • You will be fine Marcelo. I’m sure Dal will give you a pass since you didn’t try to hide the fact that you were the same person and just shortened the name for privacy reasons. It went from a stanza-long name to 3 letters. Great.

    • Aaron, why didn’t you use the “R” in creek After clue 6? just heavy loads and water high would then have clues 8 and 9. It was a nice try though…

  45. Hello Everyone,

    I joined the Chase in June of 2017, so my history is limited. Going back to the beginning of the Chase, Forrest made comments about creating the whole adventure to give hope to the redneck from Texas who lost his job, has 12 kids, a wife and a pickup truck. Just search Tarryscant for many references to “redneck”. He made several comments about this in combination with his cancer diagnosis.

    Now for me, this is hard to imagine, but I am trying to put myself in the place of that man in Texas who lost his job back in 2009 – 2010. What would be the course of action for him and his family to take in looking for the treasure chest? Forrest has also said to have a child look at the poem to help with clues through imagination.

    There they are, at the kitchen table, reading the poem. Maybe that man has a road map or 2, and asks his wife and kids look at the poem for ideas and thoughts. What do they think of to do to begin their search? Won’t he most certainly ask “Where do warm waters halt?” How will the kids answer?

    Would they all pile in and go to the public library for research?

    When I began I had Google Earth Pro, a big computer screen, fast internet, a few Colorado maps and some life knowledge of Colorado, but certainly I had more search tools than the man from Texas with the big family. How on earth would that guy and his family start their journey? It is a daunting exercise, but maybe worth some thought.

    Is it possible to solve this riddle with just the poem, a vehicle, resolve and imagination?

    Maybe add to that a copy of TTOTC, a map and nothing else. What is the method of solving the location of the TC?

    Has anyone else done this? Any thoughts about the process? Are we missing something here which needs to be added in? I’m trying to remember my elementary school geography class.

    Franklin

  46. Did anyone notice this?

    https://dalneitzel.com/wp-content/uploads/2018/03/Where-Warm-Waters-Halt.pdf?x36947

    “Forrest states Waters not Water.”

    Forrest has said “There are few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure, and it is risky to discount any of them. Do not over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. “Look at the big picture”, there are no short cuts. f” Forrest states Waters not Water.

  47. Thinking…

    If WWWH + CD is the first clue;

    The last clue FF said that GE does not help because GE it does not see so deep;

    And when we find Blaze we have to look down;

    So “Look Quickly Down” would that last clue ??

    And Blaze would be visible by GE ??

    But if researchers were to 200 feets of TC and did not see Blaze;

    So Blaze should not be something that calls attention that much;

    How would it be visible in GE ??

    This looks like a dog running after his own tail.

    The more I think, the worse it gets …

  48. Hello again! I got a new idea…
    key word: Brown – actually Charlie Brown a cartoon character,first mention in 1946.
    So, 1st clue wwh – Animas river halts and meets San Juan river and that’s why waters halt and not water,in New Mexico.
    2st clue canyon down – Take U.S. Hwy 64
    3rd clue Home of brown – Charlie Y. Brown School in Bloomfield.
    4th clue No place for the meek – Sullivan Canyon…Mick Sullivan was an English professional Rugby League World Cup winning rugby league footballer of the 1950s and 1960s, and coach of the 1970s.
    5th clue drawing nigh – Valdez draw
    and Boots on the ground looking for the blaze across San Juan river,because Google map doesn’t go down enough for rest clues.
    Good luck and stay safe!

  49. Hello again! I got a new idea…
    key word: Brown – actually Charlie Brown a cartoon character,first mention in 1946.
    So, 1st clue wwh – Animas river halts and meets San Juan river and that’s why waters halt and not water,in New Mexico.
    2st clue canyon down – Take U.S. Hwy 64
    3rd clue Home of brown – Charlie Y. Brown School in Bloomfield.
    4th clue No place for the meek – Sullivan Canyon…Mick Sullivan was an English professional Rugby League World Cup winning rugby league footballer of the 1950s and 1960s, and coach of the 1970s.
    5th clue drawing nigh – Valdez draw
    and Boots on the ground looking for the blaze across San Juan river,because Google map doesn’t go down enough for rest clues.
    Good luck and stay safe!

  50. This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the conversation please go to the latest Nine Clues page.

Comments are closed.