The Nine Clues…

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This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Forrest has told us that  “Begin it where warm waters halt” is the first clue. What is the next clue.

603 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…

  1. More things for thinks…

    I’m a beginner here, so my opinion may be out of fashion.

    But think about it:

    When did FF launch the TTOTC? October 2010.

    TTOTC “DOES NOT” RM Map.

    TTOTC “DOES NOT TALK OF RMs”.

    It speaks only of “Mountains north of Santa Fe”.

    The “blurred” map on page 133 is a map of New Mexico from the late 19th century.

    Now comes the real question:

    If TTOTC had not made the sudden success it did,

    If FF were anonymous,

    Or at worst, if FF had dead shortly after launching TTOTC,

    Forget ATFs, tips, videos, TFTW book (september, 2013), focus only on the TTOTC book and answer me:

    “WHERE” – In what state would people “naturally” seek the treasure?

    “WHAT STATE” would the TTOTC book put the researchers to?

    “WHAT REFERENCE” of the State does the TTOTC book give?

    Humm????

    • Ah,

      What is the best place in the world to live / live, according to the FF?

      Where did he get a particular archaeological site?

      Often, having options near places that “were” important to the FF during your youth?

      After thinking about it, my solutions conflicted.

      IMO

      • I know of many sacred and secret fishing holes from my childhood that are off the beaten path. Many people live in the south for the dry warm climate later in life but they wouldn’t put their bones there. I’d look up North.

    • McB,

      Ah! But fenn could have left out “NM” for a reason. In the mountains N. of SF seemed deliberately worded to include all of the range, and Canada at one time, to make it harder from the start. Yet, fenn didn’t want NM excluded either, line of thinking.

      There could be another reason. WhatIF all the reference to wwwh in the poem have a connection throughout all the states and possibly Canada, as well as, below SF? The idea would need to have a location of other clues, all the other clues, or clue to know where to start. And that is how we “nail down” wwwh, and why. Hence the idea of the warning in the book about the direct path would only be certain if we knew the location.

      I think the poem’s wwwh are not, just many, but all of the same and contiguous themselves. Like fenn implied in a Q&A; even with WWWH and IN the Mountains N. of SF… it wasn’t enough… we need all the ingredients. We seem to be oversimplifying the clues, as well as, over complicating them with a lot of unknown outside research.

      • Seeker,

        I put myself in the place of someone “normal”, who knows no more “nothing”, and who only has the TTOTC book at hand.

        I would assume it’s in NM.

        To think … and now worried…

      • Seeker, have you looked up “contiguous” in a dictionary?

        I have.

        I have also looked up “warm”.

        Relaxation may be the “key” to happiness w/respect to the hunt.

        The above is my opinion. Y’all may have a diFFerent one.

    • Note I made a typo., I believe the treasure was hidden. It was NOT buried. Please disregard my typo in my original post above. This is an important distinction. I apologize for the confusion. This was my first treasure hunt and my first post in a treasure hunt blog.

  2. I agree 100% with Brian Bentwood’s comments. Is it BB or FF? 🙂
    I’m missing only one hint on the blaze location. Spent 2 days at the location of the map in TTOTC, not the one p. 133. “look quickly down” is the mystery. I’m guessing stanzas 1,5,& 6 hold the answer. Help anyone?
    EOG

    • Ecstasy.. I am new to this (only found out about it a month ago) but would be willing to help if you want to DM me logansrun821 @ gmail
      I was talking about this with my wife that I think I am too late to the hunt, and she says that I shouldnt invest the time and effort as someone will find it in the next few months.. I am a really good problem solver and I know that people get greedy and do not want to share info or gold with anyone, but if you work together 😉
      I stumbled on the blaze

  3. Never thought I’d get the chance to say that…Guess I’d better say something about the nine clues…HMMM…

    The way I see it, with some imagination, the meanings behind lines 11 and 12 lead to the recognition of the ‘blaze’…Upon reaching line 13, one should have already been wise and found it…I say this because back in line 10 we are drawn to ‘the end'(good riddle in itself), prior to the reversal of circumstance alluded to in line 11…

    IMO, of course….

    • SS,

      When “something” is always near you?

      While you’re walking in circle.

      The clues go around the chest.

      That is why the end is “ever nigh”.

      IMO

        • Aaron

          Have you read the poem Brown’s Descent?

          I’m not saying the chase is connected to that poem, but I will use it to illustrate.

          Brown lives at the top of the hill. He slides down the ice and is stuck at the bottom. He can’t go straight back up due to the ice so he winds his way around the hill slowly ascending.

          Lugnutz

          • Interesting, thanks for sharing. If there is anything that could be related perhaps it is that he took the long way home (to home of Brown) via a road several miles.

    • The “end” is where we find the blaze? So, at the end we should find HL n WH. I have to ask, Is HL n WH the blaze or just the location of the blaze?
      It makes sense if we need to look down from the ‘end’ or “high” a distance to the chest could be obvious.
      Can you explain what “there’ll be no paddle up your creek” might refer to?
      I mean, it could be literally no traveling past the end point, or Where you are is of “no” problems to get to the chest.

  4. I now have a “solve” and I’m pretty confident in it. I will share it after our family vacation. I hope to come closer than 200′.

    As Forrest has stated, there are many places “Where Warm Waters Halt” in the Rockies. Don’t discount any words, there are no shortcuts. WWWH is the starting point, but it isn’t the first clue. You need the first Stanza to determine which WWWH to start at. It is the first clue. Once you have the start point even a child can follow the clues on the map with the poem.

    Happy Hunting 😉

    • Eric,
      You’re going to hear some complain about wwwh is not the first clue… But I see where your head is at. So I’ll ask a question like this;
      IF stanza one gives up the location of the correct wwwh… is it a clue? or just a location of the clues.
      By which the clues 1-9 starting with WWH as the first, will lead to the chest?
      My thinking is slightly different than yours… but the location, in this case, would only tell of where the clues are at. Yet we need wwwh to kick-start the “clues” we need to actually follow.

      • The first stanza is the first clue and a location on the map. If you solve it and are looking at a map it will be almost impossible to miss the correct WWWH. I had an aha moment after my “solve” and the poem reads just like a map and you can follow it without any mental gymnastics necessary. You do need a good map and they are hard to find.

        • Eric, ~ ‘You do need a good map and they are hard to find.’
          So GE is not up to the challenge? What would be missing from The GE system that the “good map” is needed.

          • I have found that not all landmarks are listed on Google Maps and some of the ones that are require zooming way in, though there are pictures of the first clue on Panoramio on GE which has been discontinued. I stumbled on the map containing the feature by mistake after searching for the Blaze and immediately noticed WWWH next to it.

          • By landmarks… do you refer to has woods, waters, plains, mountains, or man made, roads, buildings, RXR tracks?

            I’m only asking because of the two comments about; GE “and/or” a good map… and… the more detailed a map is, the better.

          • Let’s see if I’ve got this straight . . .

            A good map is “hard to find” , but “even a child can follow the clues”. Something is wrong with this picture.

            But good luck, Eric. In fact, good luck to everyone.

            All searchers matter. IMO.

        • I’m referring to woods, waters, plains, mountains, etc. The Bureau of Geographic Names has a list of features that you can download and filter by elevation but even it isn’t complete. The more detailed map the better. My WWWH is plainly visible on GE and Google Maps and I had been considering it as an option but then found what I believe is the solution to the first stanza and was certain that was it and all of the subsequent clues fall into place. Good knowledge of Geography helps too.

        • Hi Eric D

          This sounds intriguing. I also make use of more detailed maps. My maps include lots or borders and boundaries.

          I’m sure you won’t want to say what your warm waters halt is, but would you feel comfortable divulging the nature of your wwh?

          For example, are you referring to a hot spring, lake, waterfall, etc?

          I like what your saying about how you can now see the map as a poem.

          Cheers
          Lugnutz

          • Lugnutz,

            If I divulged the nature of my WWWH I’m afraid it would probably give away the location, though it isn’t a hot spring, lake, or a waterfall. The dictionary/thesaurus and the first Stanza really helped. If I find myself alone in there, I might be lonely, secluded, solitary, etc.

    • Are you saying that Fenn lied when he said that WWWH was the first clue?

      He is a fisherman and fisherman are known to embellish but I dont think he would mislead so blatantly.

      Jenny’s MW blog is a great place to get caught up on things he’s said to date.

      • No, he didn’t lie, you begin it WWWH.

        There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f

        I take “there are no short cuts” to mean you can’t skip to the 2nd Stanza for the first clue. WWWH is still the beginning of the map, you just have to know which WWWH to use to start and that comes from the first Stanza.

        • Eric,

          Best of luck on your quest. How do you define the Blaze? Just for clarification I’m not asking what you think it is, I’m asking how do you define it?

          Cheers

          • I think that nearly all of the clues correspond to a geographic feature on a map, whether proper named or with a little bit of a word play(a thesaurus/dictionary is a good resource).

        • Eric D, did you discount the word “hint” in the first stanza? Or did you convert hint to mean clue when it could really just mean hint, as in the first stanza sets up/hints for the correct wwwh.

          • I do believe it’s a hint to the starting point. I saw a feature on a map and the phrase suddenly made sense to me. There’s a chance you could find the WWWH without the hint and still get the poem correct but it helps to narrow down WWWH.

          • Eric,

            I think some here are attempting to see how the first stanza is a ‘clue’. What I mean is; we have been told there are 9, that need to be followed “precisely”… you seem to be adding a tenth clue.

            It makes no difference to me if you call stanza 1 a clue, but it does throw off the idea we should [ in the end ] have 9 specific clue that lead us to a spot… otherwise… why would fenn tell us we need to follow 9 clues and not ten or more? or less?

            If something “helps’ narrow down wwwh or any clue, isn’t that a hint?
            In the wood could refer to hoB, but would that make in the wood a clue or just helpful.

            Overall we’re supposed to be looking for a “path” that we can follow “precisely”
            Something that tells us the location of the first clue [ or all the clues ] seems nothing more than helpful, and eliminates the dart tossing method, to find where the clues are at.

            It may sound semantics, but we still need the clues in order to be following them [ precisely, designed / blueprinted clues ] , regardless of how we got to the location.

          • Seeker, I agree with one of your points which is if something helps us narrow down the first clue then that something would be considered a hint.

            I don’t agree that if something helps any of the other clues then we call that a hint also.

            You said…In the wood could refer to hoB, but would that make in the wood a clue or just helpful?

            I would consider your example of in the wood a clue and not a hint. Why? Because if it works like your example then in the wood helps get us closer to hoB than the previous clue(s) do. It can’t be like that according to f’s definition of what a clue does for us searchers.

          • Ok Fun,
            I see where you’re heading.
            So let me rephrase “help”
            For example If wwwh was a geyser and the supposed hint to it was new and old…. we could think ‘old’ ‘faithful’ that releases a ‘new’ showers every few minutes. But that would be a direct answer to which which geysers out of the many, right? hence a clue.
            A hint doen’t give an answer to a clue, or at least it shouldn’t, because as you say, it would get us closer. [ only an example ].

            But lets say In the wood refers to a saddle of a mountain or passage, and hoB is called Brown’s mountain pass. in this case, in the wood is only a hint to what we might be looking for… the one and only mountain pass which would be refer to has hoB. [ lol bad example, but still and example ].

            This is why I was chatting with Eric about his thoughts… he called something in te first stanza the first clue… we know wwwh is the first clue… his thoughts seem to imply a possible 10th clue.
            Yet we have been told there are 9 we need to follow “precisely” IMO… there is a reason fenn told us the poem contains 9 clues to “follow precisely” [ in a 166 words, 24 line poem ] even if we only know how many at the end of the our solves… there should be only 9 pieces of information that gets us there.

            If we skip one, we’re done… if we add, our bad.

            However, I agree to a point, with Eric. something should tell us where the location of the clues are at… Only then, will the clues bring us closer… It’s the need to know where to start. And is seems, wwwh [ the first clue ] kicks starts the “path” once we are certain of the location [ of the clues ].

          • Seeker, god discussion.

            There’s a couple of details I’d like to add. I wouldn’t agree that your example of new and old translated to Old Fathful would be considered a clue because it gets us closer…

            The important question to ask that I never see other searchers ask is closer from what? It can’t be closer from Seeker’s home or my home cause obviously f wouldn’t be able to determine a neutral starting point that the first clue reveals. I think when one starts saying a clue will lead one closer to the tc then that obviously starts at clue one.

            If so, then that means that any help to get us closer to clue one can’t be defined by f as a clue but is a hint.

            And you might want to refresh upstream as Eric D. added a comment where he does feel that stanza one provides a hint to the first clue.

          • Fundamental,
            LOL I asked that question just the other day… it came about with the Little Indy Q&A [ again]

            She or anyone else [ the two other examples ] “can not get closer than the first two clues”
            So she can get to the location of those clues, then what’s the problem?
            She can not get to the next clue by means of a deciphered clue? or she cant get closer than she already is?
            The dilemma is what fenn meant… other clues? the chest? or she doesn’t have all the info and just the first two clues won’t hack it?… then again she has the book, the poem and a map, right? I mean, if I was to be semantic about it… if she has a map, she should be able to get others.

            I personally think fenn meant the chest ~ to what she can not get closer to… basically … all the clues references are right there… 1000′ sq, line if thinking. But she still needs to be there to get the job “completed.”
            But why? what is it about the clues we need to “observe” and “plan” for? Not many want to chat about that, or they just don’t think it’s important enough to worry about it.

        • I’m tracking with you Eric D, but many here will not follow. For myself, I have been thinking outside the box, but inside the problem that is the poem.

          Good luck in your searching!

        • To me this statement sounds like he is indicating there are a lot of places where warm waters halt and you have to work through them all in some way to find the ‘one’…there are no short cuts

      • I don’t believe that Fenn has lied with any of his answers. He does however answer the question how asked or otherwise refrains from answering.

  5. With a new 9 clues page, it might be a good time for us (self and kids) to answer the question at the top of the page, “What are the nine clues?” (Using abbreviations.)
    IMO: 1. BIWWWHATIITCD; 2. NFBTFTW; 3. PIBTHOB; 4. FTINPFTM; 5. TEIEDN;
    6. TBNPUYC; 7. JHLAWH; 8. IYBWAFTB; 9. Look quickly down
    Any comments?
    Safe searching, everyone!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

      • ‘No, the first clue in the poem is begin it where warm waters halt… if you can’t figure that clue out you don’t have anything.’

        Eric, have you heard the New Zealand radio interview [2013]?

          • what’s the frequency kenneth?

            albeit i may not be a LV highroller like Brett, but would happily bet my last dollar that “you need to start at the beginning” relates more to the 1st poem stanza than the location of the “first clue” per sa ..imho

          • Ken,

            Just a reply to your question a few days ago.
            Not sure when we will be out in NM. Hope to make it within the the next 2 months though.
            We have found it to be not as easy as we would like it to be just to get away for a vacation or search.
            Per the commercial, “Life comes at you fast”.
            Good luck and stay safe.

          • Astree…The big picture tells all.
            Good luck to you and your wife Tarheel. You seem level headed…don’t get caught up in the frenzy. The treasure is not going anywhere until the right person comes along. Those that rush forth…well, you know what I mean.

          • Ken,
            Thank you for the positive feedback.
            No rushing for us. If it is found before we get there then that is a good thing as I hope someone, whether it is us or not, finds the TC.
            Good luck to you as well. Stay safe.

  6. AH! heck,
    I’m just going to ask and hope FF reads it…
    Mr. Fenn,
    To your knowledge has anyone referenced more than the first four clue in the correct order? Regardless of where you read, heard of them.

    • Hi seeker,
      Very good question but I think it still leaves a bit of wiggle room in the answering. Mainly, if somebody alluded to a clue and did not directly say the exact location FF would still be able to truthfully answer that nobody had stated those clues.

      I would ask….” In your opinion, how many of the clues have been solved?”

      He seems to be avoiding answering questions involving that type of progress in the chase even though in the past he was more than willing. I think it most likely is due to somebody getting close to solving the poem or having already done so.

      • Beefstew,

        Yes it’s a good question that needs a answer.

        “Mainly, if somebody alluded to a clue and did not directly say the exact location FF would still be able to truthfully answer that nobody had stated those clues.”
        Beefstew, I believe you hit it right on the money with this statement.
        Forrest could continue to say searchers have solve the first two clues forever, because it’s the truth, even if someone gave him the entire correct solve. ” tell some of the truth just not all of the truth”. They might have solved 3 or 4 clues but he was not sure. He know’s the places and someone told him those places but did not say they were clue solves.

        I have done that, sent him my ideas before I figured out most of the clue solves in the area I’m at now. Heck, it might even be me that he refered to, but that might be wishful thing. Can’t say it didn’t get my heart pumping when that interview came out though.

        Anywho, we need a better answer from Forrest.

        Good luck,
        Bur

        • You guys want deciphered/solved clue references ‘and’ “locations” of them.
          I’m simply asking if more clues have been solved / deciphered / figured out, beyond four clues ~ [ than the last comment I know of, that the first four may have been solved ‘in the correct order’ ]

          “Alluded” to means nothing to my question… that doesn’t give the idea of correct order. For all we know, all the clues could have been “alluded” to bu never in the proper way.

          • Seeker,

            No way to tell if those three or four clues were in correct order or just random throughout.
            I can only say was in my email the areas I wrote about were in order listing six places, but after finding what I believe are the correct solves for 8 clues, and that’s after BOTG, I was only correct on 4 of those six places I first told Fenn about. But who’s to say it was my email he might be referring to and chances are most likely not. But “what if”…….he says with a smile.

            Good luck Seeker with a answer to your question. Maybe Forrest will reply.
            Bur

    • Hi Seeker – I would be good if f just wrote the numbers 1 – 9 down to represent the 9 clues. Then he could write yes or no next to each number if he knows that clue has been correctly solved/identified. Then he can show us that list!!! 🙂

      Secondary preference would be to at least tell us how many yes’s he wrote down when going through this exercise.

      I just pinched myself and didn’t feel anything… I wonder what that means???

      • And maybe to make it even more interesting, f could indicate how many people he knows that correctly solved each of the clues marked with a yes.

        Hmmmm… still can feel it when I pinch myself…

  7. Here’s my 9 clues followed by hints that go with the overall theme of my solve.

    9 Clues:
    1. Begin it where warm waters halt
    2. And take it in the canyon down
    3. Not far, but too far to walk
    4. Put in below the home of Brown
    5. From here it’s no place for the meek
    6. The end is ever drawing nigh
    7. There’ll be no paddle up your creek
    8. If you’ve… found the blaze
    9. Look quickly down

    Hints towards my theme:
    1. As I have gone alone in there
    2. hint of treasures new and old
    3. your quest to cease
    4. with marvel gaze
    5. the answers I already know
    6. I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak
    7. If you’ve been brave and in the wood
    8. If you’ve been wise

    • Thrillseekeranimallover, your clue #5 isn’t in the poem.

      If you’re not precise, you won’t be able to precisely solve the poem.

      Without a precise solve of the poem, the TC will be un-findable.

      All my opinion.

      • #5 isn’t in the poem? Are you sure about that??? As you said, if you’re not precise you won’t be able to precisely solve the poem. I also forgot #9 for the hints: Hear me all and listen good

        • I’m sure that your #5 ain’t in the poem. No where in the poem does it read or say, “From here.” Nor does it say, “hint of treasures”.

          • Good catches. “From there” and “Hint of riches” My memory of the poem is obviously fading – LOL. Those small changes don’t alter my solve.

    • We are pretty close on the 9 clues Thrillseekeranimallover.

      9 Clues:
      1. Begin it where warm waters halt
      2. And take it in the canyon down
      3. Put in below the home of Brown
      4. From there it’s no place for the meek
      5. The end is ever drawing nigh;
      6. There’ll be no paddle up your creek
      7. & 8. Just heavy loads and water high
      9. blaze

      Just heavy loads and water high are in the same line in the poem and suggests they are both together up your creek & the blaze may be before those considering the past tense.

      Just my 9 sense….

      • Sounds logical to me Jake – I do not agree that HL and WH are “both together”. Near to each other – yes – actually together – No. JMO – JDA

        • These 9 clues in my mind will never change since early 2016.
          Maybe I refined them too much but I don’t think so.
          Just heavy loads and water high puts an X on your map like 2 things crossing & the chest is not far from it IMO.

          You heading out again?

      • Jake – I don’t see in the wood and that to me would be the last clue to go to where the tc is just my opinion

          • ok but I think that a hint is something that ff would give out that is not in the poem – a hint to me would give me something as to what in the wood would be with out really saying it – im not trying to change your way of thinking but to me personally if its in the poem its a clue

          • IDK frank,
            There must be at least 1 hint in the poem.
            We know there are 9 clues & have a pretty good idea what they are.

            In the wood is a great place to be.

          • Frank: if there are no hints in the poem, then the first stanza serves no purpose because we know the first clue is in the second stanza. Evidence enough for me that there are hints in the poem — and not just one hint, but many.

          • I think there are several hints in the poem that may help with the 9 clues with anyone’s perspective if you have one which you do as all.

          • I think there’s just one really good hint in the poem versus many hints. Going off the lack of lines in the poem allocated towards such a possibility. I think the hint is 4 lines in the making.

            I would think f would go big with one good hint over more hints of lesser value.

        • Come back where Jake?
          Of course – It’s where it’s at, but it may not be where YOU think it is at.
          Jake, you are not Forrest (I hope) so you can not promise anyone where it is at – 🙂 JDA

          • Here:
            9 Clues:
            1. Begin it where warm waters halt
            2. And take it in the canyon down
            3. Put in below the home of Brown
            4. From there it’s no place for the meek
            5. The end is ever drawing nigh;
            6. There’ll be no paddle up your creek
            7. & 8. Just heavy loads and water high
            9. blaze

            Seeya later goodbye

          • Ha ha ha! This is cracking me up! I think you meant to say, Jake, “9. Blaze, look down” I love the short sweet clues. But I can’t help thinking about all the other juicy stuff in the poem, like brave and in the wood, etc.

  8. wwwh. Overlooking the words you may believe to be (the clue words) , look for the whisper words. For instant, after wwwh, and take it ( IN) the canyon (down) . North -up , South -down , west -out, east-in, just a thought. If any clue was a noticeable rock and once you see it you would know it was the blaze, it just doesn’t make sense and would not be fair for the people that are not from the area, local people would be like, “Fenn’s talking about the big white rock just down the road ! ” sorry for the interruption.

  9. What if f rewrote the poem and had the starting place be where the chest is at (the 9th clue) and then had the poem go back to the first clue?

    What if everyone started at their last clue and rewrote the poem such that it took them back to their first clue. How many different versions of the poem would we end up with?

  10. Forrest said: “Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking.”
    BWWWH is the begining and Just take the chest is end. So why is it, “more than half way, rather than just half way?”

    • Hi Debi: I guess I would counter-ask, why do you think it’s even half way when you’ve only solved 1 clue out of 9? Forrest’s “metaphorically speaking” is the tip-off that he’s not addressing the clue count. I think a simpler interpretation is that once you’ve solved the first clue, you’ve probably eliminated two or three states from contention (depending on the closeness of WWWH to a state boundary, and how far you think the clues are physically separated from each other).

      • zap: “you’ve probably eliminated two or three states from contention ”

        I believe you are correct on this. and this is confusing to people about why it should be easier from there on for the clues, I think ff believes it is easier. however the numbers suggest otherwise.

        for instance solving for wwwh, if we were to simplify the poem so it is solving a 1 question riddle. (i believe the whole poem is involved) but for illustration sake.. lets say it is solving a 1 question riddle, now lets say there are a few thousand solutions to this 1 question riddle in all 4 states, (or more if you wish), well all you need is about 5 thousand to 10 thousand searchers all choosing a different wwwh, and someone is going to be correct.

        and that is what happened, the chase generated just exactly enough searchers in the first few years to yield enough to get (a few) searchers with wwwh, and that number has grown naturally as there have been 30,000 searchers, so more searchers with the correct wwwh, of the possible 5000 answers for wwwh, as an example.

        I don’t know if it is 5000 possible answers for wwwh, but I suspect that it is close to this.

        easy to see what is happening really when you think about it like that.

        This is what people are confused about, why did someone solve it so quickly… and only one clue… (well two if you include canyon down)…. well they didn’t, as a group they solved it, but none in the group can say for sure which person(s) in that group solved it.

        that is why….. simple really, now when you scale up to a 4 clue riddle, and/or 9 clue riddle, suddenly we have more than 20 billion answers, and we don’t have 20 billion searchers…. so that is why it is far harder for the next 7 answers.

        see how this works? not directed at zap, but to everyone.

        I believe we have enough searchers that the HOB is correctly identified now. (I actually have more faith in my HOB than my wwwh) but no one is going to know if their HOB is correct, because they dont’ know if their wwwh is correct… I know for sure that my HOB is correct, if my wwwh is correct… but I have no way of knowing if my wwwh is correct… sort of a catch 22. welcome to vonnegut’s nightmare, fun house. or thrill. depending on your attitude.

        but taken the number of searchers that have wwwh correct and dont’ know it, I believe at least a few have HOB correct. yet they will never know. (and may literally never know)

    • There are multiple places where warm waters halt. After solving this clue how many canyon downs do you think you would have to look for. The choices for the remaining clues are narrowed down drastically.

      The key word though in the quote though is solve. People have found the first clue years ago and did not find the chest yet. If they knew for sure they had solved it I can’t imagine them leaving the area without the chest.

      Solving and confirmation of solving is very key.

  11. I think that not far but to far to walk means just that – going north to where warm waters halt you take it in the canyon down – to me that means the lower canyon or the first canyon you come up on – if you keep going up the canyon (north) you have gone to far – you have to turn around go back to the lower canyon (canyon down ) where -warm waters halt is and take it in to home of brown – imo

  12. con·tig·u·ous
    kənˈtiɡyo͞oəs/Submit
    adjective
    sharing a common border; touching.
    “the 48 contiguous states”
    synonyms: adjacent, neighboring, adjoining, bordering, next-door; More
    next or together in sequence.
    “five hundred contiguous dictionary entries”

    10,200 feet not 10,000.

    There are two definitions of ‘to walk’ that would make sense in this hunt for Forrest Fenn’s treasure. The first being to place one foot in front of another and so on and so forth. The second being to guide, escort, or steer someone/something from one point to another.

    Or just simply to be a Hobo and hop aboard, no ticket needed. https://dalneitzel.com/2017/03/07/winter-thoughts/…….

    TT

    • Tom T (and anyone else who wants to read along),

      Many definitions of the concept/word contiguous use two-dimensional examples like maps of states. However, we all live in a three-dimensional world. Contiguity of the nine clues in a three-dimensional world makes for a real mind bender. So, how can all nine clues be in such close proximity that they are all “contiguous”? Or, are they only contiguous within the confines of the poem – the written words that express, or point you to, the actual clues themselves? Like I said earlier, a real mind bender. I am still wrestling with this, so I really don’t have an opinion, per se.

      • Swwot;

        When Forrest said that the nine clues are contiguous, I think that he meant that clue #1 is contiguous to clue #2, which is then contiguous to clue #3 – NOT that clue #1 is contiguous to clue #2 and # 3- both at the same time.

        California is contiguous with Arizona. Arizona is contiguous with both California and New Mexico. New Mexico is contiguous with Arizona and Texas, but not contiguous with California – Yet all four states are contiguous – Don’t you agree? JDA

        • JDA,

          That certainly is one way to look at it, but not the way I think Mr. Fenn used the word. It is my opinion that he meant more than meets the eye.

        • JDA.

          Remove the imaginary boundary lines, and the land is contiguous… yet still different in features. you’re using the dictionary definition without imagination.

          Lets try this idea;
          The Mississippi river run contiguous through 10 states, but the10 states are not contiguous to each other. If we needed to know of the 10 states [lets call them the clues], the Mississippi would be the factor that bring it all together.

          The idea of contiguous to the poem might be more like the Mississippi, something that connects the other clues together. Could it be WWH or any other clues, home of Brown? Could it be the location? could it be the big picture idea?

          The thing is… If we needed the Mississippi as a clue [ even the first clue], how would we know of it without knowing where to start looking…. the same scenario could use the Colorado river, or the Snake river etc.
          Something need to tell us where to look for all the clues, not just the first clue reference…. might this be the idea of; “what took me so long” Find the correct location and build the clues from there…. Many are only looking for wwh to handle this whole challenge… that would be ok, IF there was only one.

          [Note; these are large scale examples for easy understanding. Your size may vary… don’t hold it against me if mine are bigger…. examples.]

          • Seeker- perfect illustration of what I suspect will be shown to be true when Indulgence is recovered.

            Thanx for sharing!

          • Seeker;

            This brings us to the “BIG picture” discussion. I DO believe that there is “something” that ties all of the nine clues together. That SOMETHING relates to the over-all location, as well as all that has happened within that over-all area. Today, yesterday, and many, many yesterdays ago.

            Hot sure that knowing this “something” is possible until one is close to completing the poem – Not sure that that “something” can take you TO WWWH, at the beginning of the quest though. – JMO – JDA

          • JDA, Seeker, et al,

            It is my opinion, and good fortune, that nobody has figured out, as of yet, this “mega-clue” (perhaps the word that is key?) and solved the poem, so as to walk with confidence to where Indulgence lies. Somebody will, eventually. Maybe this year, maybe not. I do know, that in my own mind at least, I think I have as good a shot as anyone in figuring this thing out because it is not completely determined by botg experience. I have come to believe, for better or ill, that a person need only take one trip into the wood to pick up Indulgence – no reconnaissance is needed. Again, I know I am in the minority of what most people think. And until I am fully satisfied that my solution to the problem is good, I stay home and play Canasta.

          • JDA,

            The concept of the Big picture in my above scenario is nothing more than how the poem unfold… the connection from one clue to another and how it works is the big picture, idea. Not so much a simply point to point excursion where the clue don’t really connect.

            In the idea above, should a state or region be left out [a clue], you don’t have a connect all the way through. Another-words, each state would be just as important as how they connect… which would be the Mississippi.

            So why would fenn say if you know hoB why would you be concerned about wwwh?
            Three possibilities come to mind;
            1. ya can’t get hoB without wwwh. because we need that particular wwwh location to find it.
            2. hoB is the ‘connection’ needed to pull it all together, wwwh is the first clue.
            3. WWWH and HOB are so closely related, they are one in the same, yet known separately from each other. OR if you have one you must have the other.
            3. I’m full of crap and we just stomp point to point and each clue stands on its’ own.

            OK 4 possibilities.

            How many stars do I get ken??? and where’s my ribs?

            Bazinga !

          • Seeker,

            Two number 3s? 🙂

            Seriously, that statement has bugged me for quite a while, the one where Mr. Fenn says if you have hoB, why worry about wwwh? I’ll propose a fifth choice,

            5. You can’t figure out hoB without solving the poem.

            Granted, this is somewhat like your number one solution. The difference is that Mr. Fenn knows, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that nobody can figure out hoB and not know “how they got there”. And getting there can only occur by solving the poem. At that point, why would anyone worry about wwwh? I would go so far as to say, if you knew everything there was to know in the whole wide world except for the solving of the poem, and fell from space (and somehow miraculously survived) right on top of hoB – you would never know it. You just can’t get there from here, (where “here” is the whole of everyone that has not solved the poem).

          • Seeker…somebody musta hijacked your ribs.
            I sent them right out…and oh my…tasty stuff!
            No stars involved…just my bookkeeping/inventory system.

          • Seeker;

            #1 – I mostly agree- We need that particular wwwh to find hoB.
            #2 – I disagree – hoB is connected to wwwh (or visa-versa) via the canyon though
            #3 – Do not agree
            #3B – Maybe 🙂 Just kidding – JDA

          • Personally, I do not think it is such a big mystery what Fenn was implying when he used the word contiguous. He has repeatedly advised to follow the clues in order…starting with the first clue. As a set of directions that are essentially a map to the treasure location…one clue progresses to the next and so on. If one deciphers them correctly(the clues) one should end up at the treasure location. Successfully doing so makes them contiguous. No success…the chain is broken.
            Further…Fenn has alluded to maybe 4 clues…so that implies that hoB is possible to decipher without total success, depending how a searcher numbers their clues.
            The infamous “Big Picture”…and no shortcuts? I believe Fenn was imparting his wisdom by implying that in order to have success, searchers need to use all of the poem in it’s entirety, to fully understand how it relates to the physical search area from start to finish. By the same token, this understanding(poem-map/map-poem) will enable said searcher to *visualize* the search itself.
            If a searcher has to find out- learn where the first clue is…there must be some info to help learn? Yes/No?

          • Hi again, Swwot — you wrote, “It is my opinion, and good fortune, that nobody has figured out, as of yet, this “mega-clue” (perhaps the word that is key?) and solved the poem, so as to walk with confidence to where Indulgence lies. Somebody will, eventually.”

            I believe that several somebodies have solved your “mega-clue” which I believe is indeed Forrest’s word that is key. It is the glue that binds all of the clues together and provides continuity/contiguousness between them. I don’t believe it is enough to solve the whole poem, but I think it *is* enough to solve the first two clues.

          • Ken;

            Honest – straight-forward – direct – I can not fault anything you say – JDA

          • Ken, Zap, JDA and company,

            Ken, I am fully behind your statements, right behind JDA. And I’ll answer yes, to your question at the end. It is my opinion that “there must be some info to help learn”. I have not ruled out that there is an overarching clue AND a word that is key.

            Which leads to a reply to Zap. I would say, it seems that some have figured out where to start, whether they have the word that is key or not, AND they do not have Indulgence because they have not completely solved the poem. Close, but no cigar.

            And to all, I appreciate the feed back, as it helps me to process things – just this morning, my wife asked me if I was talking to her as I was getting ready for work. Nope, just talking out loud about the work day ahead. I know that I learn better when engaged in dialogue, even if no one else is listening – ha! 🙂

          • Hi Swwot: you wrote, “I would say, it seems that some have figured out where to start, whether they have the word that is key or not…”

            If my starting location is correct (mind you I have no personal doubt, but being Indulgence-less I must add “if”!), it is not possible to nail down without the keyword. It could potentially be guessed, but that wouldn’t provide the sort of confidence that leads to BOTG.

            ” … AND they do not have Indulgence because they have not completely solved the poem.”

            Now, THIS I agree with. Solving the first two clues is just the beginning, as evidenced by the years of failures by two-clue solvers. I’m aware that many searchers don’t buy that the two-clue solvers were aware they were right, but in my opinion that’s just a weak excuse trotted out by people who haven’t deciphered the starting point.

          • Zap,

            Your hypothesis can definitely stand, as I see it anyways. I don’t have a word that is key yet, or at least that I know that I have it already (still doing research), which is why I had to add the phrase “whether…or not”. FWIW, I do suspect that some “searchers” have been to the correct WWWH and don’t know truly why it is the correct WWWH. But that’s an opinion, as I do not have concrete evidence of that. Until Indulgence is discovered and revealed, searchers cannot claim to have
            “nailed it”. One also would suspect that if a searcher had indeed solved the poem, WWWH is confirmed and the remainder of the poem would be as well. Again, unknown by me, as I do not have that information yet, as neither I nor anyone else has picked up Indulgence.

  13. Greetings,

    So I woke up this morning with a thought in regards to clue #8.

    Assuming a searcher (any searcher) has successfully completed clue #8, and is in the correct location and that searcher is on site working diligently to correctly decipher clue #9, I keep wondering just how much further, in distance, to the treasure chest is it? I mean, once a searcher figures out and accurately executes clue #8, it cannot possibly be another 2 or 3 miles to go to the treasure chest can it?

    Just curious as to what other people’s thoughts on this might be. Does anybody else struggle with distances in the poem, especially towards the end? How far is that final distance between clue #8 and #9 to the chest. Should we be thinking several steps, 12 ft., 200 ft., 500 ft., another mile?

    Just thinking out loud!

    The above IMO.

    SRW

    • The 7th, 8th and 9th clues are in close proximity and within 20′ IMO.
      What the heck is heavy loads and water high anyway?

      • Chance;

        How many different opinions would you like? If anyone knew for sure, they just might be pretty close to Indulgence – Say, within 200′ – who knows? Not me, for sure. I have ideas, but don’t know for sure – JDA

    • SRW,
      I’ll worry about that when I think I have the 8th clue. It would be a waste of my time to think about it before then. Hopefully it will be easy to figure out since I’m going to be really hyped up and won’t be pondering things patiently if I ever get there.

  14. Hi Swwot: catching up with posts made while I was gone in Colorado Springs (no, not to hunt for the treasure!) Your posts in the prior 9 Clues, e.g. https://dalneitzel.com/2018/04/06/the-nine-clues-81/#comment-504760
    are very close to my interpretation and solution to the clues, and specifically the 500’/200′ dilemma. I have a slightly different wrinkle that explains why no one has gotten closer than 200 feet — a number that Forrest maintains is pretty accurate.

      • Hi Ken: which Rudy’s? There’s Rudy’s Roadhouse, Rudy’s Country Store and BBQ, and Rudy’s Little Hideaway. I’m sure I’ll be back in the Springs later this year and could check it out. This past week, all I had time for was a quick visit to Phantom Canyon Brewing.

        When in the Springs, it’s hard not to think of E.C. Waters and his Seven Falls solution… 🙂

        • I know Zap…EC Waters has a place in the history of the Chase.
          It’s the Country Store and BBQ. If you are a BBQ enthusiast like me…it is definitely worth the experience. Enjoy and take your time. I always stop there when in the area.

        • Hi ken — thanks, will check it out next time I’m in town. I do love good BBQ, whether ribs, pulled pork, brisket.

        • Ken: wanted to say I randomly spotted Rudy’s on the left last weekend while driving up to Pike’s Peak. Would have stopped on the way down, but my wife’s a vegetarian, so not ideal. 😉 Next trip!

          • Zap…All that yummy BBQ will be waiting for next time!
            Had you stopped…your wife may have been surprised by what was available for her tastes. Next time….

      • Kedar’s Mom: not sure I understand what you’re asking? The “tromp and vibrations” comment came out last year, and subsequent to that remark he has reiterated that no searcher has yet come closer than 200 feet. So Forrest’s “personified” treasure chest is evidently capable of becoming “alert” to hiking boots that are at least 200 feet distant.

        • I really think you’d have to be closer than 200 feet to feel the vibration of a hiking boot. Maybe 20 feet? It looks like the vibration is short from google, so wouldn’t last long enough to be felt 200 feet away. Anyone got a vibration sensor?

        • KM: I wasn’t addressing the undetectability of such tromping from 200 feet away; I was pointing out that Forrest made that post at a time when no searcher had ever been closer than 200 feet. As I recall, Forrest wrote something close to the chest “again becoming alert to the tromp and vibration of hiking boots” at a time when NO searchers had been closer than 200 feet. So in Forrest’s personification, the chest can clearly “feel” those vibrations from further away than 200 feet. He’s simply being poetic, not literal.

          • Hey Zap, thanks for your reply. The 200 feet comment is years old. The vibration comment is recent. Somebody was near the spot in 2016. After 2016 a lot changed, no more clues, no more hints, except now we know last clue must be solved on site. Someone was close enough that the tromp and vibrations could be felt by indulgence. Everybody is ready to go and search, but I wonder if the finder wants to retrieve it or keep waiting. Ijdk. All imo.

          • Kedar’s Mom,
            Wait, how do you know in 2016 someone was close to the treasure? Thanks in advance. Please let that person be me…

          • Kedar’s Mom: I think you misunderstood my post. *AFTER* Forrest made that tromp and vibrations post last year, he later said that (still) no one had been closer than 200 feet. I maintain that even today, that 200 foot record stands.

          • Or Zap –

            Tromp and Vibrations refers to many people, not necessarily chasers, hiking close tot he location. That should fit with your idea that millions have been “near” the location.

            I mentioned something a couple of years ago and it is still true. If you are on a trail and you turn and walk 50 60 feet into the woods you can place a peanut jar with a hundred dollar bill behind a tree and no one will ever claim the loot.

            Try it!
            Lugnutz

          • On The Road With Charlie 5/8/2017
            “I don’t know that anyone has been closer than 200 feet and I don’t think they have.”

          • Hi Lugnutz: the problem with assuming it’s ordinary people that have obliviously come so close is this: how would Forrest know? He only knows where searchers have been because they tell him.

            It’s one thing to claim that hundreds of thousands of people pass within 500 feet of the chest each year; quite another to claim that large numbers of folks are doing better through happenstance than us searchers are through deliberate action following the clues.

            I do agree with your geocaching comment about traipsing a short distance perpendicular to an established trail, leaving something out in the open (but without direct line-of-sight to that trail), and the improbability of anyone ever stumbling across it.

            Finally, Forrest has always seemed confident that no one will just happen upon that treasure chest. I think this is because getting there requires some planning, without which you would never have cause to go there.

          • Zap,

            Maybe a highway… other near trail… a canoeing river… a public attraction… Railroad…

            IMO

    • Hey Zap,

      I think there are a small number of us her at hoD that are thinking along the same lines, catching the same drift, as they say. However, I sense that I am the further behind of the lot in my solution.

      Thanx for the feed back and good luck to you.

  15. I think the Q&A here says it all:

    Who is Brown? “Well, that’s for you to find. If I told you that, you’d go right to the chest.”

    IMO what it sounds like I am reading is that regardless of the beginning of the poem if a person knew what is meant by Brown a then they would go right to the chest. I am not sure how to read that any other way.

    • AAron;

      As I look at my solve, if I told you MY hoB, you would go right to the general area in which I believe Indulgence is secreted. Would you have enough information (hoB) to go directly to the exact spot Indulgence is secreted? Probably not.

      Knowing my hoB, could you then figure out meek place? Probably
      Knowing my hoB, could you then figure out the “end” place? Probably
      Knowing my hoB, could you then figure out NPUYC place? Probably
      Knowing my hoB, could you then figure out HL & WH places? Maybe
      Knowing my hoB, could you then figure out the Blaze place? Maybe.

      Point is, If I told you that (what hoB is) , you’d go right to the chest.”- to me – says that with that info, you could figure out the rest, but it would not be easy – JMO – JDA

      • Well, we can all interpret this however we choose but “go right to the chest” sounds like it would be easier than a “maybe”. Remember that we are to put in below HoB. This below HoB may not allow us to go right to the chest while HoB itself may. The question was “Who is Brown?”

    • Aaron…that statement nibbles at me from time to time. First, Fenn totally ignores the question and says there’s references to wood. After redirected Q about “who” is Brown, Fenn seems to ignore the “who”, and answers.
      I suspect that “in general”, if a searcher has made it to that clue…the treasure is not very far away.
      That makes that clue a very specific location.

      • In my own solve (so IMO), the chest isn’t at the HOB, but knowing where the HOB is, does allow you to “know” the general location of the chest. Which in turn, would allow one to figure out pretty quickly what the blaze is and follow the poem to the chest from there. You would be able to go to a specific location. The last time I was there, the weather didn’t cooperate. Hoping on my next go, the majority of the snow has melted.

        What is interesting to me, is that in my given area, there are several places that one could consider WWWH, 2 places that could be construed and work as the HOB, and 2 places that one might believe to be the blaze, but in actuality only one place works as the blaze. So I think that is part of the learning curve. I had to have BOTG to determine which was the blaze. The correct WWWH and correct HOB don’t necessarily matter if they are right or wrong, if you have found and figured out the blaze as they all work to get you to the same place on the physical map.

        That’s just how it works for me with my solve. I’m confident in it only because I haven’t seen anything that works any better. I’m still really open to other ideas, so I love reading about where other people are at and how they interpret the poem.

        • KK,
          Similarly, I have two locations for “no place for the meek” and two for “heavy loads and water high” that work in my solve, and they all lead towards the same destination. If my solve is correct, then perhaps FF intended there to be more than one way to skin a cat.

          • Xfiles, I have been wondering about that. It seems to me that the poem was created with many “almost” solves that match more than one area in more than one state- and also offer more than one solution to some of the clues- probably part of why it took so many years to perfect, and part of why there are a multitude of “solves”.

            I do think if you explore the general area enough, that if you are in the right general area for the correct solve, there perhaps are going to be some very telling signs.

      • Ken, could you please provide where you read ” if a searcher has made it to that clue… the treasure is not very far away.” Thanks

  16. what I don’t understand -is what is so hard to understand that – not far but to far to walk pertains to all the poem – from beginning to end – starting from santa fe its not far to wwwh its not far to the treasure chest- if ff said that the chest is north of santa fe and the poem says its -not far but to far to walk- it couldn’t be any clearer then that imo wwwh is not far from santa fe

  17. In my solve, the 1st stanza is giving you, IMO 2 hints to the right WWWH thus the right starting place.
    When I make it to HOB, TBNPUYC & JHLWH are both in front of me and behind me. This indicates to me that I am in the right HOB.

  18. I believe I have also found the key word to focus on. This key word helps to lead you all the way to the blaze. and thus to the chest. IMO

      • I wish all the best. I still don’t believe that most have it nailed. IMHO the key word isn’t…. …. Even if others have the correct wwwh they’ll more than likely never find the chest. I’m not going to explain that.

        I suggest if others aren’t sure of the correct start they start over.

        Then read and reread the poem. Again and again.

        Maybe I’ll bump into some of you this summer.

        Cheers

      • JDA if on the slightest, slightest chance I am right with my solve and I come up with the chest, you are welcome to an item. The work you have put into this blog, the stories, solves, anecdotes etc etc….Love it! Thanks.

        • I thank you Chris, but if you do find it, share it with those that you love, and with those that would deserve it more than me. TRY and STAY SAFE!!! – JDA

  19. if I had a treasure chest to hide and new mexico and the people had been good to me why would I want to hide it in texas or any wheres else just mo

    • There’s a problem thinking like that, frank.
      fenn said he could have written the poem before he hid the chest, but he didn’t…
      If he could have done so prior to age 20… would NM still be on top of your wish list?
      Even that idea [ age 20 ] doesn’t stop fenn from continuing visiting WY, CO, or MT whenever he liked [or time allotted ].
      If I’m not mistaken he didn’t move to NM until he retired from service. Basically he could have spent more time in those states prior to 1970 [ a forty year prior ]
      compared to 18 years in NM, and then the on set of cancer, which was the catalyst that kick started the idea to; take it with him… and no other place came to his mind.
      Not to mention his duty / work in Cody and other projects / place outside NM.

      Then again, this special place might have been one reasons to move to NM, other than his location for setting up his art gallery. But I would hang my hat on it…

    • Frank: gotta echo/append-to what Seeker has said. If the happiest days of your existence for the first 20 years of your life were spent in the vicinity of Yellowstone, that has to figure into the calculus of the most influential places in Forrest’s life, and therefore strongly influence the choice of Indulgence resting place. To think New Mexico trumps Montana/Wyoming is to ignore the whole Rosebud angle.

  20. seeker and zap – I understand what you guys are saying – but they found that I had cancer and I have been taking kemo for 15 days and I still have 22 days to go its like they are burning you alive it is kicking my butt – I have no energy – that’s why I cant see him going to Montana or Wyoming the way he was go and come back in one afternoon or the same day that would be to much for somebody with cancer to go that far and do what he had to do to hide the treasure chest- I cant go any where for more then 30 min with my family calling to check on me .

  21. now with lung cancer I don’t think that he could of gone that far and with the high elevation if he done it got tired and he was weak I don’t think he would of taken that chance so I think he stayed close to home that is just my opinion- and besides if nm saved his life I think he would of wanted to give something back

    • Hey Frank,
      Sorry to hear of your health issues…..Wish you all the best.

      I find it hard to believe the chest is in NM……..because FF has implied that he hired a car when he hid TC. I remember a comment of his where he says, (paraphrasing here).
      I haven’t told anyone whether I was 79 or 80 when I hid the chest as I didn’t want people checking the car rental records and seeing how far Fenn had driven…..Either a massive Red Herring or he flew somewhere and rented a car. IMO

      Just on Fenn quotes, here is one I hadn’t seen before today:” The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.”

      • thanks chris for your well wishes – its ok if you don’t think its in nm you aren’t the only one that doesn’t think so – but like I said its just an opinion and that’s where the poem takes me – thanks for your reply chris and good luck to you

  22. Frank, Forrest had lost a kidney to cancer in the late 1980’s and the surgery was very successful. He said he evolved this plan to secret Indulgence during his illness, now realize that he is not completely disabled and when he was younger was a pretty fit man. After all he played Football as a quarterback, fished rugged terrain, went on long excursions into deep wilderness, so even at 80 when he says he hid this Treasure, he could probably out walk and backpack much younger men.

    Do not sell him short on physical ability, also on brains, after all he wore many hats in life and was able to achieve whatever he set his mind too. So if he said the TC was between 5,000′ and 10,200 feet elevation and he made two trips in one afternoon to the hidey spot he probably was closer to being 10,100′ or so than 5,000′ at that elevation you are only 3,000 ft higher than his home in Santa Fe, NM New Mexico’s capital city, Santa Fe, is at an elevation.of about 7,000 feet above sea level. His home has acclimated him to high altitude living.

    Do not underestimate a seasoned veteran, I am 71 but I make a lot of my lunch money beating 30 year olds in golf, and billiards, both are games, you understand, I could not stand a chance at football or basketball with them, but given an even playin field an older person with experience will surprise ya.

    My speculation is that ff hid the TC near 10,200′ and backpacked about 1 to 2 miles with the 20 plus weight in the back pack, twice that afternoon and he my have hand carried the last load the final few steps.

    TT

    • Tom,
      Forrest is an amazing person. Alot of people cant live with 2 kidneys. And he lives in his mid 80’s with one……..must be that clean living!
      Im headed near Yellowstone before all the kiddies get out of school! Lol
      Im shooting for easy……Forrest said leave someone waiting in the car! I will.

    • tom t – what I was going by about his health is by the poem – ive done it- tired and now im weak- im sure the cancer had some effect on him – and the removal of one kidney it wasn’t a get well in one day – so im not taking any thing away from him as to what he can and can not do — frank

        • Hi Frank, I’m sorry that you’ve hit a rough patch, just know that there’s a ton of well wishes going out to you. All my best, I hope you feel better soon.

          • hi Jeannie I haven’t forgotten about you im glad you are hanging around to wish me well – I was wondering where you were its been a while – ill come back and things will be better thanks Jeannie made my day lets not forget -U2

  23. I agree McB. The 200′ quote makes one believe that 7 clues are close. If there is a round about way to get to the chest from the 200′ mark then at least the last 3 or 4 clues are close IMO.

  24. Seeker,

    Starting a new thread with this quote from you, “I personally think fenn meant the chest ~ to what she can not get closer to… basically … all the clues references are right there… 1000′ sq, line if thinking. But she still needs to be there to get the job “completed.”
    But why? what is it about the clues we need to “observe” and “plan” for? Not many want to chat about that, or they just don’t think it’s important enough to worry about it.”

    It is my opinion that the solution to the poem resolves this dilemma. There’s something about the way the architect drew up the plans that we need to see/decipher/solve that will reveal the “hidden room” that holds the secret to unlocking the poem in its entirety. For myself, I take Mr. Fenn at his word, so I read and re-red the poem often, and look to his book for clues. I am hopeful that at some point I can whack myself in the forehead and say aloud, “I could have had a V8!”

    • Of course the poem resolves the problem… I think, many are reading it wrong. Yep its a map, but we need to read it as a design/blueprint as well. How do we build the design that we are supposed to observe and plan for?

      Your example of a hidden room might not be far off. Think of it as landscape with a hidden spot, right?
      Only we need to think out how the plan/design unfolds and observe how it is workable. If this comes down to a simple point to point stomping of places, I’d be very surprised, and dumbfounded to be honest… that, the many who have mentioned the correct clue references, and on location at all the clues, and been so close to the final resting place, didn’t have a single thought to pull it all together and simple walk to the chest, especially if it’s just going from point to point solve.

      • I agree with you Seeker and Swwot. I think that Indulgence is in a “Secret Room” idea. I prefer to think of it as a small “Kiva” since Forrest is interested in Native American culture. Like a “Kiva”, I think that there might even be a “Ladder Pole” that goes down into the heart of the “Kiva”. I think that it is here that the searcher will find Indulgence. It /”she” will not just be sitting there on the floor, but the searcher will know what to look for. Just my crazy musings – JDA

      • swwot…I like your *hidden room* analogy. I don’t believe that is what it is exactly…but the concept itself I think is spot on. I’ve spent months reconciling everything I thought was a good approach after many years of barking up the wrong tree. Very few of my original ideas remain. The re-boot has forced me to keep to the basics and reconcile *everything* before moving forward. Who, what, when, where, why and how.
        ” I felt like an architect drawing the poem.”
        I believe Fenn shared that as a way to generate the thought that a searcher needs to visualize the poem as a map. The only way to do that is to “learn where” the first clue is on a map…and go from there.
        Fenn’s the architect…the searchers are the builders. So far…the house looks like the three stooges built it.
        I think there is another subtlety involving his architect comment…only discoverable further into the solution. Seeker’s “…how the plan/design unfolds…” may best describe that.

  25. In my opinion I believe there are at the very least 4 people on this website alone that are confident they have solved all the clues in the poem and have the correct location of the treasure. I know this by their confidence and key words of what they’re posting. Some people have even stated it.

    I have serious doubts it’s still going to be there when the next person arrives. An outsider to this website may very well have already made the trip and has kept Forrest Fenn’s secret. I mean if I can see 4 or 5 here alone… how many are out there that aren’t posting here?

    Anyway, I think that everyone will be amazed at the working of Mr Fenn’s mind when the correct solves to each clue become public when the sun shines again… I know I am.

    And of course, all the above is just my opinion.

      • Butch – I am probably one of these four. I have NOT published my solve nor my word that is key. I have stated that I feel that I have solved all nine clues, and I HOPE to find and retrieve Indulgence on Memorial Day week-end. NOT braggin’ – Just hopein’ – JDA

          • Will do. I have been checking the satellite views of my area – lookin’ good. Have been checking the weather in my area – lookin’ good. Have been doin’ attitude checks – Lookin’ good, or so the wife says – JDA

      • Butch,

        Do not look for shortcuts.

        Look for a place on the map that fits with WWWH description.

        There are only a few. Is not difficult.

        Once you find this unique WWWH (singular), the other clues are a lot easier … except for Blaze.

        My two Disney Dollars in my solution.

    • Hi Neo: just my opinion, but I see little evidence that anyone else that posts here (or on a couple other blogs I monitor far less often) has solved even three clues, let alone all nine. The chest is still where Forrest left it.

      • Zap, I know all nine.
        Nope, I don’t have the treasure and maybe I never will.
        Yet, I know all 9 clues that lead to Mr. Fenn’s treasure.
        I sleep better at night, the poem does not keep me up.
        It does not run around any more.
        Peace to everybody here.

        Clearly Clueless

        • Clearly Clueless,

          I hear you on resting easier, are we both right? Could be, then again maybe not. Of course I’m positive it’s me. Just say’n 🙂

          • zaphod73491,

            I am positive I have never mentioned what state I’m looking in, yet alone the area.

            So how is it you know what state?

          • Zap,

            lol, That was back then in Sept, I’ve since then moved on.
            Nice try. 🙂

          • CharlieM: you DO know what “never” means, right? 😉 Whether you still search in Colorado or not makes little difference to me; I was just correcting your claim that you had never said what state you searched in — even if that information may now be outdated.

            If you have changed states only in the last 7 months, isn’t confidence following such a drastic shift a bit premature? I think it’s funny that some searchers are secretive about the state they search in. After all, we’re not talking Rhode Island here.

          • Zap,

            I will partially concur with you on “never”. However I did make an abrupt move, because I disproved my search back then.
            Yes, I’m secretive, if F can do it so can I.

            Thanks, happy hunting. 🙂

          • CharlieM: fair enough and good luck! Didn’t want you to think I was picking on you. I know people have their reasons for not divulging their search states.

    • Neo, that’s an interesting phrase “when the sun shines again…” . It implies to
      me that the sun will stop shining, then start to shine again. I admit that I have
      a habit of thinking (and speaking) while trying to be technically correct. And I
      believe very strongly that the sun will continue to shine continually for billions
      of years. So will you please be so kind as to let us know more about why you
      used the phrase “when the sun shines again…” ? Thanks in advance.

      By the way, I don’t believe that everyone will be amazed at the working of
      Mr. Fenn’s mind when the correct solves to each clue become public. I
      believe that the poem has been correctly solved. I believe that this is why
      FF has mentioned his “gut feeling” about this. But it’s fun to generalize,
      isn’t it?

      The above is part of my opinion. Yours may differ.

      • If you were able to read into Mr Fenn’s clues which you may very well have, then I would think you would be able to read into that. It is a clue, solve it. It is always possible that I could have misread people and have no idea what I’m talking about. The treasure may never be found. Wouldn’t that be nice? Happy hunting.

        All the above is opinion.

        • No, I do not think that it would be nice if the treasure is never found. Dreams must appear attainable – If they appear to be unattainable, they become albatrosses around our necks, and burdens upon our souls (or soles) – JDA

          • Well said JD, though we all want to continue to bear burdens on our soles as long as we can.

          • JDA
            The Thrill of the Chase is awesome!
            Your soul will sleep at night in peace.
            Hopefully, the soles of your feet will inderstand and rest soon.

        • Neo, Is something preventing you from searching, or are you just one who likes to solve riddles? I’ve no doubt the sun will shine again. Isn’t that the point?

          • Yes, actually there’s a very good reason preventing me from searching. When you’re searching for something you lost you always find it in the last place you look. You don’t keep looking for it do you?

          • Neo,

            If you end up eating your hat will you post your solve.

            After I make my trip this summer I’ll post mine. Regardless of outcome.

            Cheers

          • Kal,

            Absolutely yes. I will be posting my solve hat eaten or not. I only see it going two ways, either I get the treasure or I’m a day late and a dollar short. I have what I like to call short term OCD and when something gets in my head it won’t go away until it completely runs its course.

            I had a solve that I thought could be but then some of the words just wouldn’t fit and I’d have to go back and research an individual word twisting and turning it until I saw every possible angle. It then became a puzzle piece on a map. I moved closer and found another area that I thought was it. Again, some of the words just pierced through my mind and I knew it wasn’t right. It would fit if I forced it but it really didn’t fit, square peg in a round hole forced to pass through.

            Have you ever thought about the very first line in the poem? “As I have gone alone in there”. “in there” bothered me tremendously. What did he go in? The wilderness? The canyon? The cave? The forest? The water? The river? The state? The etc, etc, etc. That was actually the last words I finally solved even though it isn’t in the list of clues. Even after I had the location I couldn’t let it go.

            EVERY word is intentional is something Forrest said. No doubt about it. I’ve taken it so far that I can’t even tell you what Forrest was talking about when he said there’s a word people have been focusing on lately that could bring the chase to an end. I can’t even tell you what word that is because I personally have 3 that were absolute in the solve that no one is even considering. I stated I believe there are a few people on this website that have the correct solve but I’d bet a hat they found the location on a less complete solve.

            I am not saying nor ever have that I have the treasure in hand, what I have is it’s location. And of course, this is only my opinion and what I believe, my reality.

            Happy hunting.

          • Neo,

            Just a quick question for you. What about all the ATF comments? Does your solution account for some or all of them? F said to take a flashlight and a sandwich… is there a reason he made a statement like that? Just curious.

            TimM

      • TimM,

        I suppose everything FF said could fit into just about everyone’s solves.

        Flashlight and a sandwich? The RMs are incredibly beautiful in everyone’s solve locations. I can only guess at what FF was saying. You might want to take a break, have a seat, get a bite to eat, enjoy the views, lose track of time, and you’ll need a flashlight to find your way back. If you’re going to be late… I believe that too might fit in everyone’s solve. Yes, it fits in mine.

        • What’s also interesting about the whole flashlight and sandwich business is that no one seems to be able to track down when Forrest originally said this and to whom. I don’t think Forrest originally mentioned flashlight and sandwich together in the same sentence. Locolobo traced it back to Richard Saunier’s site:

          https://mountainwalkdotorg.wordpress.com/2012/06/19/more-clues-from-forrest-create-chaos-among-the-faithful/#comment-204

          Richard’s notes seem to make it clear that “take a flashlight” was originally a standalone line.

        • That’s not what he meant(about the flashlight)

          There is one stanza that is absolutely critical to understanding the poem. I’m not going to indentify it. There is a word that is key. Possibly if you’re lost, start reading the adventures of Peter Pan. Immerse yourself into another perspective. Then go back and reread poem. Quite possibly the only other individual, that I know of, who might have an idea of what I speak, is Dal. I think he is Savvy of something also.

  26. I didn’t put names on the post due to their privacy and most likely rules here. But if you search enough you can find at least one of them stating they know the location exactly.

    If I can tell by their words that they know… you could correctly assume that one of them is me.

      • Well if indulgence remains past JDA’s trip… I’m very confident in my solve. Only took me 6 years or so of studying.

    • Neo,
      Your last couple of posts gave me a good chuckle and I can’t help but wonder what the purpose is for identifying 4 or 5 searches who believe they have confidently solved all nine clues?

      The membership in the Club of Searches Who ‘Knew’ the Location Exactly (but came up short) has got to be in the tens of 1000’s by now. And yet every spring a new line stretches around the block with people clambering to fill out applications for admission.

      History and statistics should be sufficient to show there is no correlation between thinking you ‘know’ or are ‘confidence’ in your solution and achieving results.

      I’m starting a new Club for those will to admit they have no idea. LOL, Who wants in?

        • I am with you. I have some ideas about things, but I do not have what I would consider a solve worth the trip to check out.

        • CharlieM,
          The new club is only for those searchers with a basis in reality. Ha, ha

          But if you have proof that a correct solve exists then you can start your own club….might be lonely with just one member.

      • Lol, Can I join? I’m willing to say I have no idea until I have the chest in my hands- & even after the fact (should I ever be so lucky as to find it), because even with it in possession, I still won’t be sure what the correct interpretation for each clue is!

        • KK,
          Sure you can join.

          The only requirement is you have to promise never to come on the blog and say “I know the exact location of the chest” or something to the effect that “My solutions to the clues line up so perfectly that it can’t be a coincidence” (unless, of course, you send in a picture of yourself with the chest making it rain double eagles).

          • Sounds good to me. 🙂 In this life, every time I think I know something, I find out how truly little I do know. It is a humbling experience, but it keeps me willing to learn.

      • I believe this summer will have a different result than previous ones but that’s just what I believe, it’s an opinion. I haven’t identified anyone. If you’re paying attention… they’re doing that themselves. I only identified myself. I wish you well with your club and your hunt.

        • You can put me in the no clue club also. Lol. I’m betting the chest is still nestled just how Fenn left her.

          The very best advice I can give, is read and reread the poem. Research all the potential solves that others have posted. Think! You have to walk a mile in FF’s shoes.

          • Just five or six?
            Everyone is speculating that fenn knows someone will find it. All we really have is the idea that someone may have mentioned something very important to fenn or he read something on a blog…

            So what happens… just like any other year, the egotesticle know its them that finally the mystery.
            Who ever find the trove and I’m still around and kicking… I’d like to buy that person[s] dinner and just chat, and maybe, just maybe, go for a hike.

          • That would be nice Seeker. I am sure that the “finder” would like meeting you – and enjoy a nice steak, and good chattin’ – A hike would be pretty nice too. JDA

          • Seeker, you crack me up sometimes – I laughed out loud at your spelling of egotistical, whether intentional or not, it’s a hoot!

            “So what happens… just like any other year, the egotesticle know its them that finally the mystery.”

          • Oh sorry swwot it should read…that finally ‘end’ the mystery.

            How egotypical of me to leave a word out. oops!

          • I’m skeptical that there are people claiming fro know just where it resides “because I saw a sign” or “I found a clue”. That only half matters anyway. You must follow the poem and the clues.

            It took me six years to get to where I am. Probably well off the mark, lol.

            I’m planning a trip this summer, guess we’ll see.

            Best of luck to all.

  27. I just seen this on Forrest website, I thought he said he would know when somebody had claimed it, this makes me think that there must be some kind of letter or phone number the finder must read or call, the fact that the finder may not do this could mean that its already been found, thoughts?

    Has the Treasure Been Found?
    To our knowledge, NO!

    There is always a chance that someone has found it and hasn’t made it public but as far as we know it’s still out there.

    • Butch,

      “Just take the chest and go in peace.” pretty much says it all. It may have been found, but I can’t imagine the finder saying nothing, to me its just human nature to say something. And it would be cruel not to in order to save lives, and cruel for people to continue hunting if someone has already found the chest.

      Just say’n

      • I saw a video of FF saying he had a $ 100,000 check on the chest.

        But I do not remember which video it was.

        So he would know if the chest was found when the check was paid.

          • It’s was an IOU and Forrest stated that he couldn’t remember if he put it in the chest or not

          • JDA,

            I was hoping someone would know about these videos.

            There was another video where he said that HoB is “big”.

            It was soon that I started to search, so I do not remember, I already searched and did not find it.

            When I started researching my translations they were kind of bad, and it took me a while to get the hang of it.

            Sorry JDA.

        • McB, JDA, all: here’s my transcript from the relevant interview. This was from Everything Is Stories EIS Radio (8/8/2013):

          “There’s something that I don’t know whether it’s in the treasure chest or not. It was a crazy idea. But, going about the question you asked earlier, ‘Did I want to know if someone had found the treasure chest?’ So I said, ‘Yeah, I do.’ One reason is so people won’t be spending all their money looking for something that isn’t there anymore. So I put an IOU – I wrote out an IOU. ‘Take this IOU to my bank in Santa Fe, and collect $100,000.’ I figured for $100,000, the guy that found the treasure chest would not want to keep it secret anymore. So now the IRS is getting in the act and everybody knows. But if someone finds it 1,000 years from now, my bank won’t be there, and there won’t be any money in the account even if they did, so, I think I took that IOU out. But I don’t remember whether I did or not. It’s in there in spirit.”

          • Thanks, McB: I’m a poor substitute for Locolobo, but every once in a while I’m quick on the draw. 😉

          • He mentioned in an interview that there was something special in there just for the finder.
            No Mike, everything in the chest is straight forward and visual, except my autobiography, which some might find dull. Oops, I forgot, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues. I think that person will be pleased when she sees it. f”

    • Butch, that has been on Forrest’s site since I could remember. At least since 2010-2011. I don’t think it was found back then. If you are looking for hints on his website, try the name of his typewriter, or read the story on mirrors. I don’t think f put hints on his website, but who knows. Even after putting that on his website, he’s continually said it’s still out there, so I believe both, it’s still out there. And like CharlieM said, I’m sure somebody would say something. Would be cruel if not. Especially considering what has happened. Then again, for a $3,000,000.00 valued chest, the IRS would want it’s half a million, might keep someone quiet. Us searchers should come up with some kind of “code”, “cipher”, something used for a “positive” solution…;)

  28. What I don’t understand is; Why there is some negativity, being skeptical towards someone and also saying that those that claim to have possibly found the hiding place as being egotistical?

    What a way to take efforts in trying to take the wind out of someones sail. Instead of saying go for it, I hope your solve goes well and good luck, along those lines, and saying things of encouragement. Keep in mind F “never said” the poem isn’t solvable, he said along the line of being difficult.

    It doesn’t matter how long one has been searching or how long the chest hasn’t been found. There will be someone that will find the chest by fully knowing what all the clues are and it can happen any day or whether its next year.

    If I can’t believe in myself and have the confidence who will? I believe in myself and I have confidence and this may apply to others that feel the same way. I do think going after someone because they feel they have a good solution is not being supportive or what this blog is about.

    I look at it this way, if someone believes that they have solved the 9 clues, it should cause others to work harder on their solutions and to get out in the mountains to see if they can resolve more clues with botg and enjoy what is out there, that is the biggest intent on the Chase.

    If someone gets to my area and finds it the more power to them, maybe I didn’t put forth more effort in doing so. The whole gist is to be more kind to those that feel they have the 9 solved. I’m just saying from what I see and let those find out for themselves one way or another.

    I’m just standing my ground on what I feel is a very good solution and the way I feel. No harm no fowl. Good luck to all and have a good hunt. 🙂 If anything take it for entertainment, just be kind.

    IMHO

  29. All, recent questions include “what should a searcher use?”, and “how will F know when TC is found?”
    IMO, someone searching for the 9 clues should use 9 things:
    TTOTC (for the poem itself with the 9 clues and a few hints, and for additional hints sprinkled in the book), a good map (whether hardcopy or online), and a knowledge of geography;
    A flashlight (because it can get dark quickly in the mountains), a sandwich* (because there’s no place nearby to buy food), and a pair of gloves (because TC is heavy and cold);
    Logic, hard work, and imagination.
    (* I usually take protein bars myself; they hold up better than a sandwich in a mountain environment.)
    How will F know? IMO, the searcher who finds TC will be highly motivated to travel quickly from “the treasure state” to Santa Fe, NM, to return the bracelet to F, and to put TC in a vault for 30 days.
    Safe searching, everyone!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  30. “It’s really quite sim-ple. The chest is submerged in water. And sharks with frickin’ laders on their heads are circling around it. I hope whatever is in the chest is evil. An evil gold frog would be a pleasant surprise. Would someone throw me a bone here and help me find it?”

    –Dr. Evil

      • “I will repeat. It is quite sim-ple. The Treasure chest is in wa-ter. It is being circled by sharks with lasers on their heads. Someone throw me a frickin’ bone will you? If it’s in the wood then I’m a relentlessly self-improving boulangerie owner from Belgium likemy fa-ther”.

        —Dr. Evil

  31. Each clue can have more than one meaning that takes us to a specific location.

    For example: WWWH does not necessarily have to be a single thing.

    Can be:
    (a) A city that was welcoming
    (b) which has a thermal spring that flows into a cold river where
    (c) have fishing for trout
    (d) and there were many dead people
    (e) by hot-blooded (violent) people who have been eliminated
    (f) and that in winter the waterfalls freeze.

    All in one.

  32. Apparently this treasure hunt has been going on for eight years. Anyway, I just heard about it last week on the news. Up until then I had no knowledge that this event was even going on. After hearing about it though, It sounded really cool and for the hell of it I decided to take a look at the poem just to see if I could solve the riddle. It was addicting. Anyway, I think I solved in two days. Take a look and decide for yourselves.

    Okay, with that said, let’s go through some background info and some clues outside of the poem. Forrest said it was a place near and dear to his heart- which was a huge clue for me. It eliminated random places & the key to the riddle was knowing that- at least for me. More research indicated that he used to love going fishing with his dad as a kid. When his dad had cancer he took him one last time to go fishing. I could relate as I had one final trip with my dad taking him to the Mayo Clinic in Minnesota. It was an emotional and defining moment in my life. That story struck a chord with me. Anyway, because of Forrest’s love of fishing I strongly suspected it was near a creek, river, or a lake to start with. Forrest and his dad spent a lot of time in Yellowstone, but also some time in Montana on the Madison River. So I focused on those two locations when trying to decipher the clues. I looked for geographic spots near those places that matched with the poem. Forrest gave clues both inside and outside the poem. He said he wanted people to visit Big Sky Country. Montana’s state nicknames are Big Sky Country and the Treasure State- so I believed the treasure was in Montana and zeroed in on geographic locations there. With that background info and now that you know what I was thinking- here’s my take on the cryptic poem.

    As I have gone alone in there I’m not sure let’s skip for now

    And with my treasures bold, I’m not sure let’s skip for now

    I can keep my secret where, I’m not sure let’s skip for now

    And hint of riches new and old. I’m not sure let’s skip for now

    Below Warm Waters Halt- There’s a Cold Spring Road which intersects the Madison River

    And take it to the Canyon Down – Hmnn…..there’s a Bear Trap Canyon Rd & also a Trail along the river. That’s odd- let’s investigate this further.

    Not Far, but too far to Walk- Sounds like I need a car or boat- too far to walk it

    Put in Below the Home of Brown- Madison River is known for Brown Trout fish and they live below the water

    From There No place for the Meek- I’m not sure let’s skip it & go to the next one

    The End is Ever Drawing Nigh- The end of the search is drawing near

    There’ll be no Paddle Up Your Creek – Barn Creek Rd is at the lower part of the Madison River. I don’t need a paddle to use it.

    Just Heavy Loads and Water High- Heavy loads of electric current= power plant/power lines Water high means the Madison River (from what I read) & has high water at the lower part near the lake I think.

    If you’ve been wise and found the blaze- One of the definitions of blaze is marker. People were looking for one outside, but I think he meant the marker on the map, (the marker on the website with the symbol ( i ) . I’ll talk about this clue later.

    Look Quickly Down, your Quest to Cease- Look down once you get to the marker at the site

    But tarry Scant with Marvel Gaze- A little tar on it perhaps & a spectacular site of riches in the chest

    So why is it that I must go So why is it that I must go away? He possibly meant die.

    ]And leave my trove for all to seek And leave my treasure trove (it’s hidden above ground, not buried) for everyone to find

    The answers I already know The answers I already know.

    I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak I’m very tired and now I’m weak.

    Just take the chest & go in peace – Just take the chest quietly- don’t scream like an idiot saying I found it. Be subtle and inconspicuous

    So here me all and listen good So all of you listen and listen carefully

    Your effort will be worth the cold- It’s worth the cold temperatures

    If you are brave and in the wood- If you’re brave and in the woods… near a tree maybe?

    I give you title to gold (good) I’ll give you title to the gold for good

    So all of this tells me it’s at the Madison River, near Lake Ennis Montana. Okay so let’s take another look at the top of the poem to see if that reveals anything else. This is what was going through my head anyway. I’ve got to really read this & put the pieces together.

    As I have gone alone in there- I’ve gone there by myself

    And with my treasures bold, I’ve gone there boldly with my treasure

    I can keep my secret where, I can keep my secret to my favorite fly fishing spot on the Madison River and also to where my treasure chest is hidden

    And hint of riches new and old.- I believe old riches were the times Forrest spent with his dad fishing and new riches is the treasure he hid there in this contest.

    What’s the theme here? He treasured his time fishing with his dad on the Madison River as a kid. Life is an adventure, go outside and do stuff. It’s a place near and dear to his heart. And now I learned it’s something he can do by himself. So I googled the Madison River and learned it’s known for fly fishing. Do It Yourself is similar to As I have gone alone in there the first verse in the poem. So combine that with fly fishing & zoning in on that in my google search led me to the website below.

    https://diyflyfishing.com/madison-river/#8/45.474/-111.658

    However, something about this website seemed off. Something about it just wasn’t right. It seemed fishy (pun intended). My spidey sense was ringing loud saying, ”Mark I smell a rat.” The author of the website is Ken Sperry. His bio says he has 40+ years of fishing experience, yet he looks like he’s only 40 years old. Ken also rhymes with Fenn and Sperry is a store selling boat shoes. So I think that Ken Sperry is really a pen name for Forrest Fenn the sportsman or the fisherman. And I also believe this website is related to the treasure hunt.

    As I looked at the website closer I saw a map of the Madison River and decided to look at it. It’s filled with various symbols indicating different spots and points of interest. When I zoomed in to look at the lower part of the Madison River near Lake Ennis this is when I stumbled upon the clue of a lifetime in my opinion. It was a point of interest on the map labeled with the symbol ( i ). And when I hovered over it, it said FF Treasure.

    https://diyflyfishing.com/madison-river/#12/45.4794/-111.6486

    I thought to myself Oh my god! I think I just found the map to Forrest Fenn’s treasure! I triple checked it to see if I was hallucinating, but it was there every time I went back. I knew what no one else in the world knew outside of Forrest Fenn! Going back to the poem I believe this is what Forrest meant when he said If you’ve been wise and found the blaze. I think the blaze is the marker on the map. I also realized this was bear country- black bears and grizzlies. Naturally I had an Indiana Jones type reaction, “Bears, why’d it have to be bears?” As if that wasn’t bad enough there were also mountain lions, wolves, moose, etc. all of which would be more than happy to ruin my day. Okay back to the website- unfortunately I missed the next part until it was too late. Below the map of the Madison River is a link to an app. If you copy and paste it, it shows a youtube video explaining the various benefits of downloading the app such as being able to get directions to various places to fish and points of interests on the map.

    https://diyflyfishing.com/app/

    I believe this was really a way to get pinpoint directions to the treasure chest. I also believe there was a homing device or GPS inside the treasure chest similar to the scene in the movie No Country for Old Men which had a homing device inside the suitcase filled with money. I believe that’s how the winners beat me on Tuesday April 24th 2018. They had the app with the GPS directions leading them right to the treasure chest and I didn’t. I only had the map- so I was using landmarks like the blue house and the island on google maps. I wasn’t sure if I could cross the Madison River or if I had to hike up the West side of it and that’s what cost me the treasure in my opinion. Once the chest was found I believe there were instructions to turn the GPS tracking device off. Why do I think that? Because I found the app later on Tuesday night and I tried using the app the next day on Wednesday April 25, 2018 just to see if it worked. It didn’t work for the FF Treasure point of interest though and I think that was because it was disabled by the team who found the treasure.

    So to sum it up. I believe Forrest Fenn’s treasure was hidden near Ennis Lake near the Madison River in Montana. I’m not sure if the town is McAllister, Montana or Ennis, Montana, but it was hidden where the map on the website indicates. I believe it was on top of a small flat gray platform, underneath and lying next to a tree, with a little barbwire fencing to the side of it- perhaps to keep animals away from it. I saw that during my search, but I thought I was too late at the point. I also believe it was found on Tuesday April 24th, 2018 around noon by a team of 3 people in a light blue sedan who beat me to it by minutes. I was in a gray Toyota Camry. I think they stayed in the same hotel as me. Here’s why- on my way to dinner on Monday April 23rd 2018 I overheard three people in the hallway talking. They seemed really happy. I wasn’t trying to eavesdrop, but fate is a mysterious thing sometimes. One of them said, “I can’t believe you put it all together. I had most of it, but couldn’t figure it out.” I thought to myself, “Oh no they found the map. They have the treasure. It’s over.” I was really down and frustrated at dinner, but decided to go search the next day anyway. I didn’t come all the way to Montana from the Midwest just for a hamburger. On Tuesday I thought I saw them again, we passed each other twice that day- I believe it was the same folks in the hallway, it was hard to see, but that’s what it looked like. Once when I was walking on Ennis Lake Rd they drove by me (and when that happened I realized they didn’t have the treasure chest yet. Now it was an all out sprint!), the other time was when I was driving on Barn Creek Rd and they were leaving, that’s when I thought they had the treasure chest and it was over. Why? Because they had left too soon. You don”t drive 1.5 hours to a place to search and then leave after only 40 minutes unless you’ve got the treasure chest.

    So you’re probably wondering well if they found it why hasn’t there been an announcement yet? I believe that there hasn’t been an announcement yet because the winners are talking to Forrest Fenn as well as their attorneys right now. They also had to drive back home from Montana. I doubt they took a plane or a train back with the treasure. That process takes time. If it was me I’d do the same thing, I would have driven back home, waited until I put the treasure in a safe deposit box, and then sought legal advice as well as advice from Forrest. No doubt the government will try and stake their claim to this fortune since it was on public land, which could result in a lawsuit. I also wouldn’t rush and yell out, “Hey look everyone I won the treasure hunt! I’ve got $2 million worth of rare gold, jewels etc. in my car trunk!” I’d keep a low profile and that’s what they’re doing right now in my opinion.

    So, what was the main theme in the poem? What was the big picture? What was Forrest Fenn was really trying to say? I believe the big picture, main theme of what Forrest was trying to say is that life is an adventure. Go outside and do stuff. He treasured the time when he went fishing with his dad on the Madison River as a kid just like I treasured the time I played catch with my dad as kid. I also believe he was saying that not all treasures are in a treasure chest. Some of the best ones are spending time with loved ones. I’d give anything to have one more catch with my dad, just like I’m sure he’d love to have one more fishing trip with his dad, but unfortunately both of them are gone now. He even mentioned that money isn’t everything, but it makes life a lot easier of which I agree 100%. Anyway that’s my theory, I was so steadfast in my belief that I put up my own money and flew out to Montana on Monday April 25th, 2018 to see if I was right. Unfortunately, one team beat me to the spot. One team out of 350,000 people! That’s a tough pill to swallow. I finished 2nd despite being a middle aged guy in his 40’s who had never hiked, backpacked or even been to the mountains before, much less I did it all by myself. So, not exactly a poor showing for one of the biggest longshots in this contest. The odds in Vegas on a guy like me would have been astronomical! Unfortunately, second in a contest like this pays the same as last- and that absolutely sucks! Just like Butler University in the national championship game a few years ago vs Duke I was a Gordon Hayward mid range jumper and a half court heave away that missed by inches from shocking the world. The guy no one gave a chance to almost won it all. Well won most of it. Wherever you are dad- I miss you and love you! This one was for you! Only time will tell if I’m right or if it’s yet, just another flawed theory in the biggest treasure hunt of all-time.

    Mark Bonadonna

    • Mark,
      Your summation is a possibility. For all of us still searching I hope you are incorrect however if indulgence has been found I say congratulations to the finder.
      Thank you Mark for sharing your story.
      wdor

    • Hi Mark Bonadonna –

      You have fallen for Forrest’s trick. In his memoirs he talks about Yellowstone quite a bit right? He went there for 17 years at most. He was in the military for longer than that and he has lived in New Mexico for nearly 50 years.

      He raised hi family in New Mexico and he was able to fulfill his dreams when he started working on San Lazaro.

      When Fenn wrote about the best day he never had, it wasn’t in Yellowstone or New Mexico or Texas for that matter. It was Lander Wyoming. He flew there, landed, rented a car, met a young kid, hunted for arrow heads.

      If you stay with the search you are going to come across many places on maps that reference the Fenn treasure. If you go out to some of the “popular” places that chasers seek the treasure chest you may find things that other chasers have left behind for folly.

      Lugnutz

      • Hi Lugnutz,
        My theory on the spot is a little northwest of Yellowstone, but it’s not far from there I never read either of his books- just saw something online about it. I just found out about this treasure hunt a week ago.

        For what it’s worth I really hope you’re right and I’m wrong. I mean i hope I’m off by thousands of miles because if I lost this hunt by 10 minutes to another team who got to the spot I theorized just before me like I fear- that would be a gutwrenching loss. Good luck!

        Mark

        • Mark B –

          There are many senior searchers that believe the TC lies between the 44th and 46th parallel. So you may be in the right area.

          But, there are a lot of mountains there and a few warm water halts.

          As Zap said, welcome!

          Lugnutz

      • Welcome to the Chase, Mark. Let me put to rest your fears that you were beat by a few minutes. You weren’t. The Chase is a marathon, not a sprint. No one is going to solve it in 2 days, 2 weeks, or 2 months. The evidence? 350,000 people have been trying for over 7 years. Even after the first 5 years, no one had solved more than two clues.

        Will it be solved this year? If past performance is any indication, then the odds are not good, in which case you’ll have some time to try to tackle Forrest’s puzzle from all angles. Then again, it could be found next weekend. Sort of like trying to predict when the Big One will hit California. IMO, you will probably need a year just to figure out the starting point. That should be your near-term focus. Enjoy the Thrill of the Chase!

    • Mark,

      I also saw this “(i) FF treasure”.

      Not only this indication, but also several others in NM, CO, MT.

      But this is not in line with FF ATFs.

      That’s why I ignored them.

      Continue on the quest and you’ll also find more seemingly false indications like this.

      IMO

    • That is really quite amazing Mark! Some of your clues seem totally logical and straightforward, though I don’t know if there is a map with “FF Treasure” so obviously identified. I am very skeptical of such a map existing because FF spent years cultivating and planning his poem and I supremely doubt that he would have a map like that. I do like the comment below about maybe you being the owner of the app or the diy site that you linked to. I know I clicked on it and was flabbergasted to see that “i”. hahaha…well played sir or madam. Well played indeed.

  33. LOL A few months back I saw some guy playing up his clues. Made multiple posts that the treasure was for sure in such ans such a place. i said the guy is probably a business owner in the area and looking for free advertising. So this one? Yeah.

  34. Mr. Healey,
    I just found out about this treasure hunt- literally like a week ago. I live in the Midwest and if you read my theory I thought someone beat me to the spot, found it, and that the hunt was over. While i wouldn’t doubt what you say is possible ( I could definitely see some people writing false theories to bring in new business) my solution hardly brings in new business if I was a business owner since I said I thought someone found it and the hunt is over. My theory is just that a theory- nothing more. I could care less about web traffic to my site. I just wanted to post my theory online somewhere, for the record, for people to see and I’ve done that. Get over yourself.

    To McB and the rest of you- good luck! Like I said I really hope I’m wrong and I’m off by thousands of miles and i didn’t get beat to the spot and lose by 10 minutes. I took a shot. If I didn’t go I would have always wondered what if, especially if someone would have found it there while I was at home. Once again- good luck!

    Mark

    • Mark Bonadonna, Mr. Fenn doesn’t even have to leave home to catch fresh fish everyday. Nice story though. Good luck, It ain’t over yet. ” web traffic to my site? “

      • Thank you for the warm welcome everyone. My thinking was that Mr. Fenn’s fondest memories were with his dad as a kid. It’s very possible that I am WAY OFF base with my theory. I didn’t read his books, this was just from googling stuff about him. I definitely could have misinterpreted the poem. Very possible. But I gave it my best shot. It made sense to me- both the clues in the poem and the overall message he was trying to send. We’ll see what happens.

        Oh and Dr. Evil if I would have won – as God as my witness sharks would have had laser beams attached to their heads. I figure- every creature deserves a warm meal- Muah! Muah!!! Muah!!!!!!!

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Bh7bYNAHXxw

        • I think the “trying to drive traffic to website” comment was about the person who owns the DIY fly fishing website–not you! Suggestions: check out the Cheat Sheet (at the top), consider investing in TTOTC (less expensive from the bookstore in Santa Fe, and they are quick shippers!), read the Where Warm Waters Halt thread under Searcher’s Discussions (go back to the beginning). It is very unlikely FF would have hidden the treasure chest on private land. There is little else everyone agrees upon! Good luck!

    • Mark,

      You got us wrong. Sorry.

      We are not saying that “you” has created false theories.

      We’re saying there are people who create these “(i) fenn treasures” that you’ve found in Google Earth to get attention or to mess up.

      Many of them have already been found in Google Earth.

      And you’re not the first to go to one of them.

      Search hard and watch FF interviews.

      Some good sources:

      https://www.oldsantafetradingco.com

      http://www.chasingfennstreasure.com/fenn-quotes

      http://mysteriouswritings.com

      And here in blog Dal.

  35. Hey JDA,

    Sorry for this much delayed post, but I just returned from my trip and now find myself wading thru some 700+ posts.

    This is in regards to your comment on 4/22/18 to CharileM.

    “CharlieM;

    In all truthfulness, I am quite sure that luck will have very little to do with me, or anyone else finding Indulgence. Saying that, “If I am lucky…” – at least to me, sounds a lot better and nicer than several other options……..”

    We all know Forrest loves golf and so this thread reminded me of something Lee Trevino once said to a TV broadcaster during an interview about hitting a remarkable approach shot onto a very difficult green and landing his ball close the hole, resulting in either a birdie or eagle, but I can’t remember which; “The more I practice, the luckier I get.” Only thru hard work did he and all the other professional golfers create this brand of “luck”. Something I hope to emulate in the Chase.

    I may not know the precise position of the TC, but I am of the opinion that I can greatly increase my chances of finding it by studying every piece of information he has given us AFTER using the poem as the platform from which to “practice” my game if you will.

    I continue to find “things” in the poem that have taken me to some interesting and unusual places outside the RMs. Perhaps I’m way off base and standing alone in this line of thinking, but I simply don’t think the Chase is 100% restricted to the RMs.

    Perhaps one of these days I’ll unlock the one door yielding that precise location, but in the meantime, I’m pretty sure I’ve got the first clue nailed down. However please don’t confuse it with the first clue in the poem and we all know to which I refer. And that at this time, I consider it to be the second clue, though I reserve the right to change my mind when/if warranted.

    And it feels real good to back in the States.

    Take care………Pinatubocharlie

    • Pinatubocharlie,

      Welcome back to the states and here on hoD. You lucky dog, “just a metaphor”
      I get what you are saying. On a side note, all of the clues are in the RMs, at least for me.

    • Just a correction on that famous golf quote:
      It was actually Gary Player! when asked why he was so lucky? He replied the funny thing is the more I practise the luckier I get.

  36. @zaphod.
    My last reply to you was moderated away. No surprise.
    Re: 200 feet or closer?
    Please see Thor : Hypothetical Question post by Blurbee @ 8:40pm post 268
    F: I’ve had positive indications that people were within 200 feet.
    Q: and that knowledge comes from what, emails written to you?
    F: ….and photographs. These people told me exactly where they were and I recognized the spot, but I didn’t tell them they were close.

  37. Hi Guys,

    Sorry to add this on here but I dont know how to start a new thread, I am relatively new to the Chase so firstly is there somewhere I can read the rules/conditions of the chase and secondly I read somewhere that if a disabled person found the treasure but was unable to go and claim it then FF would collect it for them and would say the chase is over, am I right in thinking this or have I misinterpreted this? many thanks

    • Butch on,

      Welcome to the hunt,

      And,

      Start at the beginning.

      In the menu above:

      Home
      Rules
      Too Far To Walk
      Cheat Sheet
      Fundamental Guidelines
      Safety First

      Then in the sidebar >> has sooooo much for you to read and study.

      If you find any news, it will certainly be commented here.

      And Dal is always alert to any news of “FF chase”.

      Bring your ideas to be tested here.

      They are all good people.

      If we can help, we will certainly help.

      McB from Brazil.

    • Butch,

      Forrest has “not” said he would assist in retrieving the treasure for anyone. Your on your own regardless.

      You might want to go to the “Cheat Sheet” at the top on the home page or at the top of each thread. This will help also. At the bottom of each page are more links to other websites.

      Hope you have a good hunt!

      IMO

    • He said if that person, being handicapped, gave him exact coordinates he would retrieve it but it had to be exact.
      -B

      • Can you please provide information as to when and where and how Forrest said this. Not doubting you, I have just never see it, and I would like to see the context. Thanks – JDA

        • JDA,
          I don’t keep notes or anything like that. I read it in a Q & A somewhere, the person asked specifically about handicap people being able to enjoy & retrieve the chest. Mr. Fenn said, if the location was exact. I’m sorry I can’t give ya more.
          -B

        • Western magazine. I believe…
          Something to the effect
          …. If you can tell him within 6″ …

          That comment was a while back and recalling from memory.

          • Thanks Seeker,
            I’m hopeless at notes, most are my version of shorthand.
            -B

        • JDA,

          It looks like it was in a Q & A that referred to Yellowstone.

          FF replied (paraphrasing):

          “Give me the coordinates I’m looking for so you do not get burned in the geyser.”

          I do not remember where that was.

          My memory is slow.

        • Thanks guys. I find nothing at Tarryscant.com, nor anything in “Chasing words…” Since more than one remembers it, maybe he said it. I would still like to see the context. – Thanks all for your efforts – JDA

          • JDA,

            From what I remember:

            FF was responding to an email, I think.

            The person was concerned about the NPs’ legislation. And she wanted him, as the owner of the chest, to look for the chest for her.

            His response was like other evasions. Type “chest 300 miles from Toledo”.

            One way to be courteous, I guess.

            Nothing to be considered.

        • JDA,

          I believe this what McB is refering to from SB 149, but there’s nothing in it about coordinates. If there is one with coordinates in the quote then I’d be interested in seeing that one myself.

          Take care………Pinatubocharlie

          ++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++++

          “Lightning struck me today in the form of an email from someone I never met and do not know. But the history of our respective families is so entwined as to be almost umbilical.

          Here is her email to me. My response to her is at the bottom….

          Dear Lou Ellen,

          I knew all of that old bunch in West Yellowstone, starting in about 1938, from old Sam, the patriarch to Wally, Joe, Bette, Rose, and the rest. Wally and I fished together many times on the Firehole, Gibbon, and Madison Rivers. I knew your grandmother Frankie when she was barely old enough to wear a top and even today she remains a cherished friend. I love the link you included in your email, and think I need another hankie.

          If you find the treasure in YNP, tell me where it is and I’ll go get it for you so you won’t be thrown down the hole at Old Faithful.

          Forrest Fenn”

    • TTOTC and TFTW but not OUAW – I Do not have my copy of OUAW so am going from memory. – If I am wrong, please, someone correct me – JDA

    • I believe he used them at end of 2007 book, too, so may be something private to him, and may or may not have anything to do with the chase, IMO.

      • Maybe the double omegas are as simple as he always considered himself and Skippy as the Two Amigos … just a thought … he never said this … just something that popped in my mind. Omegas = Amigos … keep it simple … again … just a thought.

        Keep it safe always
        Lyzee

    • Double Omega’s are at the end of both books TTOTC, TFTW and Seventeen Dollars a Square Inch book and in Scrapbook 50.
      I don’t have Seventeen Dollars a Square Inch and would like to know everything on that page where the double omegas are. If someone could take a picture of that page and post it to the internet, I would be grateful. Thanks

    • Hello McB. Of the four books I own written by Mr. Fenn, only “TTOTC” and “TFTW” have the double omega symbols.

  38. McB sorry did not post OUAW ,it is not on last page but is in all if you know what your looking for.The double OMEGA!! JMO!!!

    • I do not have the books, so I depend on thinking and asking everyone here …

      “If”, but only “if”, the omegas have some connection with the resolution of the poem, so I can say that I’m on the right path.

      They are “big” and are exactly where “all” the clues connect in my solution.

      An old and a modern one.

      Just like the other clues. – There is a “new” and another “old” for each clue.

      “None” forces the poem. They are all pure and simple. Easy to find and follow.

      Even the TTOTC book title fits my solution.

      I’m finding my solution too easy. I’m starting to suspect that I’m wrong. It can not be that easy !!

      Only two months ago I started to search !!

      Today I was moderated in a slightly deeper comment I made, in the intention that someone would come forward and help me confirm an important theory that “no one” here seemed to notice when FF talked about “looking at the big picture” !! (I at least did not find any comment about it.)

      I need BOTG, but at the moment it will be very complicated. I think I’ll wait until November. If the CT is not found and the researchers who are researching the same area as me do not manifest themselves, then I will do my BOTG.

      • Hello McB. If you choose to wait until November, please keep an eye on the weather maps. Depending upon where your search leads you, some areas favor snow during this time.

      • McB;

        Most locations in the Rockies get snow starting in late September to October. November seems a bit late to me. Check out yearly snowfall in your search area for two years past to get an indication of annual snowfall – amount – when starts – when spring melt starts and ends. Just a suggestion – JDA

      • You need the book. Maybe not an absolute must, but there is information that is very important to the winning solve. I should have bought the book years ago. After six years of studying the poem the answers are in the book.

        • I think the TTOTC book only helps in insights.

          It does not say what each clue means directly.

          As FF said, “Anything abstract that your brain can perceive.”

          IMO

  39. I was playin’ around with the first stanza and noticed a couple things.
    Someone had previously mentioned that the four corners of the poem from bottom left going counterclockwise to top left spell out “IDEA”…well, you can spell idea with the four corners of lines 2 and 3 and lines 3 and 4 of the first stanza, forming an X (if you will) in each instance…hmmm….

    I also noticed the following…probably nothing but…

    As [the letter] I “have gone alone” in “there”…and with my treasures “bold”:

    H A V E (8,1,22,5=8,1,4,5=18=9) = I
    L (12=3) = C
    G O N E (7,15,14,5=7,6,5,5=23=5) = E
    N (14=5) = E
    T H E R E (20,8,5,18,5=2,8,5,9,5=29=11) = K

    BOLD (2,15,12,4=2,6,3,4=15=6) = F

    I CEEK “F”….hmm….is the blaze “F”????

  40. SuzyQ do you have the books TTOTC & TFTW numbers will not get you there ,the hints are in the books, read books ,read poam memorize poem think. The hints are not in order to coincide with poem JMO

  41. @fishbowl;
    I have no knowledge of Forrest making any reference to where “9 lines cross”.

    Please use “tarryscant.com” as a reference for FF quotes

    Hope this helps…

    –Fennatical

  42. Welcome to the HoD fishbowl.

    A great resource is tarryscant.com and searching for “lines cross” surfaced a few hits and this is the one I think you’re looking for. It’s from a Business Insider interview on 2/9/17.

    “Read the clues in my poem over and over and study maps of the Rocky Mountains. Try to marry the two. The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot”.

    Hope this helps…….. pinatubocharlie

  43. Thanks for the help folks. Looking forward to learning more and going on my first hunt. (when I figure where to begin)lol.

    • fishbowl- begin at the Buffalo Bill Center of the West in Cody, WY. this is where Forrest has gone alone and with his treasures bold. it says so on the wall right behind where you pay the entrance fee. yes, he and Peggy are listed on the wall as making donations to the museum.
      easy peasy.

  44. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Uses_of_English_verb_forms#Been_and_gone

    Been and gone
    In perfect constructions apparently requiring the verb go, the normal past participle gone is often replaced by the past participle of the copula verb be, namely been. This gives rise to sentences of contrasting meaning.

    When been is used, the implication is that, at the time of reference, the act of going took place previously, but the subject is no longer at the place in question (unless a specific time frame including the present moment is specified). When gone is used, the implication is again that the act of going took place previously, but that the subject is still at (or possibly has not yet reached) that place (unless repetition is specified lexically).

    ——–
    It’s not “As I went alone in there” nor “As I have been alone in there”. We are not to mess with the poem. Therefore, word selection must be more meaningful than straight-forward reading suggests. How many synonyms and/or tenses of “go” do you find in the poem? I found 9. Did I miscount?

    • Very good point EC.

      Here is an explanation of adding have in front of gone:

      Has /have gone to – refer to someone who has gone to a place but has but not yet returned.

      Can I refer to FF if he has not yet returned? Or is it a metaphorical place that he is still at?

      • Aaron and Sparrow, the opening sentence seems like a reasonable discussion topic for itself.

        For some reason over the years, I have been continuously impressed with the circumpunct symbol, “seeing it” here and there in Fenn’s commentaries, e.g. Osiris, spindle caps, jade bi, a photo of it on his wall as a pelt, mentions of middle, mean, etc. And I’m really not sure if I’ve interpreted any of these correctly as I tend to overlay my biases. I often wonder if having gone alone in there is the circumpunct symbol, to be interpreted as something else. Can’t make any of it work yet.

        • I’ve stated before that “I” in the first stanza is likely something other than FF. Reading up on usage of “gone” versus “been” makes me believe even stronger in this “I” theory. “I” must be still there due to the word “gone” and if “I” did refer to FF then the first stanza would only seem to refer to his mind or memories.

          This is all assuming that FF is using grammar correctly however.

          • Aaron –

            In The Thrill if the Chase Fenn tells each story in the voice of the Forrest at the time.

            His grammar and diction mature throughout the chapters.

            Lugnutz

        • E.C.—-
          For a while in the search I wondered whether Egyptian symbols had something to do with the Chase. For example, the symbols that make up ATEN include the circumpunct.

          The bracelet itself is made up of beads in the shape of circumpuncts. I too have seen this symbol referenced or hinted at several times. But I have no idea how it figures into the search either. Thanks for bringing that up.

      • Options for “Have Gone”

        1) Past tense. Implication: reference to location of the box whereby the trip to hide it precedes the time of writing the poem.
        2) “Have”=”Ha(l)ve” by homophone. Implication:
        “Gone” = Go NE”. Notice tense changes from past to future this reading.
        3) “Have G on E”. Imication: E becomes G primary; or E becomes G secondary alternative. A math play for those of you out there looking to play around with alphanumeric key permutations.
        4) “Have G One”. Implication: G not 7, but 1, instead. Same as 3) above.
        5) “Have Gon E”. Implication: searcher must go E at some time/place TBD.
        6) “Ha Ve Gone”. Implication: the jokes on you unless you find my V and go there as I have done already.

        There could be others, but these come to mind immediately. Everyone can decide for themselves which interpretation they like.

        Regards.

        • Iowaengr, your number 3 is it. Only because of the word “in” and the word that follows does have two E’s. “G” on “e”, “al” on “e” “IN” TH-E-R-E. Like the word good in line 21, the word “there” is used purposely. The word “in'” defines what to do. You then have the word “there”, which confirms. It has the two “E’s”. “G” on the first “e”, “al” on the second “e”. There are different things you could come up with, but what makes sense is “As I have th e “g” r “al” e. As I have the grale. (spelled wrong, of course), but then in grale, the “r” is also an instruction. “G” are “a”. It now reads: As I have the ale. (spelled wrong), but it’s the start of his idea, As I have the ail, meaning “the cancer”. He’s told us as much, when he started this whole thing, and it’s what he is telling us here, the idea, the start of the whole thing. “As I have the ail”, As I have the cancer. (using the letter values, make sure to use ale, it’s what he used).

          • Good morning, Charlie. I stipulate that “G on E” and “AL on E” work perfectly for your key. I further stipulate that Line 1 is very informative, and that reference to cancer is implied. But my solve uses different combinations than yours. So once again, we have the same letters, same abilities to conceive alternative paths, and my path diverges from yours even this early. Why? Because we are seeking different outcomes. You want the poem to tell you exactly what to do, and it does to large extent, as I’m sure you agree. But your info has only gotten you so far. Now I am not privy to all your info or deepest thoughts, so I don’t know what it is that keeps you married to your key, but I’m certainly impressed by your absolutely unshakable faith in it. But your key does not do what I think it should, which is make Line 22 perfectly equal mathematically. And since that is my go/no-go threshold #1, your key fails for me. So I’ve looked elsewhere. I now have an answer derived by reading the poem just as you have, but turning the pieces differently. In some places we see the same general things, in others we differ sharply. And that is what makes this puzzle so fascinating. And who knows? My path may fail . . . I may have to join you in ferreting out info from the book and tromping around MT. If so, I’ll buy you a case of your favorite beer and we can have a few laughs at my expense. Deal? And in the meantime, best of luck to you, Charlie.

  45. E.C.—

    >>>When gone is used, the implication is again that the act of going took place previously, but that the subject is still at (or possibly has not yet reached) that place (unless repetition is specified lexically).<<<

    That's a great reminder. And I think you are very correct that Forrest was very careful which words he used, and their meanings. Thanks!

  46. EC, this could have something to do with SB 61. Time will tell.

    Lug, thanks for sharing I’ll go back through the book and pay more attention grammar and diction. Thanks for sharing.

  47. Does anyone remember FF saying to look for the TC on the East Side of the Continental Divide? I thought I read it some where.
    fishbowl

    • In the PDF report that the fellow from Louisiana put together (Doug Meyer?), he says that “anything west of the continental divide can be eliminated, if WWWH is the GOM.” Also, seeing as there is so little (relatively speaking) area of the 4 searchable states (NM, CO, WY, MN) west of the Divide, it is more likely that the hide is west…but that is no certainty.

      Someone please correct me if I’m wrong, but I can’t find any direct quotes from ff regarding the Continental Divide. Happy hunting all!

      • Thanks daWiser for the help. You are correct. I have just started the hunt and am drinking (or should I say drowning) from the “fire hose of information” available on the blogs. Overwhelming to say the least.

        Thanks again

        fishbowl

          • JDA Learned to tread water a long time ago. Still on the beach letting the waves of knowledge build on the shore of WWWH. IMO

    • I’m not sure if there is anything stating the treasure is on the east side of the continental divide. But after 1-1/2 years of research I think I can say with certainty (correct me if I’m wrong) that the treasure is definitely north of the Equator.

  48. So Forrest has said that while a clues did not exist when he was a kid most of the things they referred to did (Moby Dickens book rel was TFTW). So, which clue(s) do you think refers to Something that didn’t exist when Forrest was a kid?

    • JimB –

      I do not know the answer to your question.

      An example would be Quake Lake, by which I mean, the smaller lake adjacent to Hebgen Lake that was created by a landslide in 1959. I think I have that correct.

      Hebgen itself is not a natural lake. It was created by dam in 1917, before Forrest was born.

      Quake Lake didn’t exist when Fenn was a kid. Interestingly Fenn does refer to going to Avalanche Lake as a kid, and that is nearby also.

    • I have wondered about this, too. Things that have crossed my mind include dams, water channels (like conduits that divert water, sometimes underground), museums, hiking trails, ranches. There are others but nothing is coming to mind yet.

  49. I don’t understand why no one to my uncertain knowledge has stated the first two clues correctly. If a clue gets you closer to the chest, then it seems to me that it must indicate a change of direction, and be a point of change.
    I believe that the first clue is begin it wwwh, and take it in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk. This sentence is only one clue because I don’t read any directional change.
    The second clue is Put in below the hob. This is a change of direction, because you put in, and this is in fact the clue. The clue is not the HOB, just because you pass the HOB on the path to the put in spot. In fact the HOB may be quite a ways from the put in spot as there is no way to determine the distance from the HOB to the put in spot, or WWWH for that matter.
    just me opining

    • Emmett: if WWWH is a point on the map (and I personally have no doubt of this) and the clues take you closer to the chest (at least via the path of those clues), then I don’t see any way around the idea that “take it in the canyon down” is a separate clue. By the most reasonable interpretation of that phrase, you are moving. Yes, some including Seeker and Lugnutz have suggested that “take it in” is an instruction to basically observe and absorb the view, but grammatically that interpretation is intractable. It leaves a hanging “the canyon down” with no colon preceding it. And even if you allow for that grammatic subterfuge, you’re left with a hanging, verbless noun phrase: “not far, but too far to walk.” On my phone I don’t have Forrest’s exact words at my fingertips, but the spirit of something he once said was that the poem was not written to mislead. It’s in plain English. Suggesting that “take it in” means “admire the view” runs contrary to a “straight forward” reading of his poem.

      • IMO we have 4 clues in the 2nd stanza:
        1. WWWH as a starting point
        2. ATIITCD a direction
        3. NFBTFTW a distance
        4. PIBTHOB a change of direction/vehicle

        Clue 1-3 are a vector that sends you to a second point, an important reference point.

        I also believe that the clues decrease the search area step by step but require several levels of search activity, or in other words: BOTG! I am definitely not in that little girl in India camp who think that only the last clue requires BOTG.

        F. e. HOB in my solve cannot be identified with GE since its significance is too low except you are standing there and see it due to the correct solve of clues 1-3!!

        Best wishes and good luck!
        TLo

  50. IMO all clues directly correlate to a geographical feature on the map and they’re contiguous and in consecutive order.
    (hint) As I have gone alone in there
    1. Begin it WWWH
    2. hoB
    3. No Place for the Meek
    4. No Paddle up your creek
    5. Heavy Loads
    6. Water High
    7. If you’ve been wise
    8. The Blaze
    9. Quickly Down

  51. Just my opinion on the 9 clues in the poem. I found what I believe to be a key in the Ist stanza that leads me to these 9 clues
    1. BIWWWH & TIITCD
    2. NFBTFTW
    3. PIBTHOB
    4. FTINPFTM
    5. TBNPUYC
    6. LQDYQTC
    7/8. JTTCAGIP
    9. SWIITIMG

  52. So Im curious what others think of the following:

    Your on a solve in Colorado, and after you brush up on some local history of the area of your, you suddenly solve parts of the poem you never really considered to be clues and the final clue being the first stanza leads you to an area called _____wood, and a “blaze” thatlooks to be made of wood that will NEVER rot. On this blaze there appears to be a coordinate for just north of Santa Fe.

    Also of note FF did not make this blaze.

    Does anyone think it’s stupid that I’m driving there now?

  53. When you really break it down to the simplest actions f took, perhaps the clues can be reversed-engineered into those actions:
    1. He made two trips from car to hide both chest and contents near the blaze.
    2. He walked less than a few miles total (so maybe a mile one-way) in one afternoon to do it.

    For me, this boils down to he parked, walked up to a mile through some woods (no trail) to a waterfall (can’t paddle up a waterfall and it is a creek with heavy loads and water high) and placed the chest at its base or behind the sheet of water (quickly down….worth the cold (getting wet)).

    Now where is that parking area…WWWH?!

    • If you’re driving, you might miss it. But If you’re walking down the road, you might hear it. 5 senses – see Teachers w/Ropes. Five is a repeated number in the stories, and an interesting set of paintings made by two friends in the art biz. (Not sure if I remember that right, it was long ago)

  54. Hey guys, I’ve been looking at each line in the poem starting with BiWWWH (because Forrest says its the first clue) from what we know Forrest has said about them.

    For example, we know HOB is a clue because Forrest says, “it’s for me to know and you to find out.” And “if I told you that you’d go right to the treasure.” (or something close to those)

    The point is we know pretty definitively that HOB is a clue and equally so the Blaze (“people are driving down the street looking for the blaze because it’s a clue”).

    So there we have 3 of the nine for sure and I think we easily have another 3.

    But what about the verse: “Look quickly down, your quest to cease,”

    Do we have anything specific from Forrest himself regarding this verse or any parts of this verse?

    GCG

    • Forrest was asked “ if you look quickly down what would you see?” And Forrest response was “my feet”.
      I believe it was talked about on here and Dal might be able to clarify

      • So, here’s a question. If I’ve been wise and found the blaze, then looked quickly down, would I also see Forrest’s feet? 😉

      • “My Feet”, that is hilarious. My take is that the opportunity to say something hilarious in a conversation trumps all other responses. I haven’t seen the context of this quote but my immediate interpretation is that is what happened. Forrest is not obligated to respond to all questions as ATF clarification man. He is allowed to be hilarious when he can.

    • GC –

      Fenn has mentioned 8 lines that I am aware of, or 8 parts. I refer to those as clues.

      Where warm waters halt
      Down a canyon ATF after death
      Too far to walk Book title and ATF
      Home of Brown ATF
      Paddle creek Letter to Forrest HiD
      Heavy loads ATF story
      Water high ATf
      The Blaze ATF multiple

      • Thx Lug,

        Yes, I’ve got those. I’m just wondering if I’ve missed something relative to; Look quickly down, your quest to cease,

        GCG

        • Ok GC

          To me, he has not directly referenced that line or those segments.

          I will add that when he says find the first clue and then they are contiguous, I think he means in the poem as opposed to in the search area.

          Lug

          • Lugz ~’I think he means in the poem as opposed to in the search area.’

            That has been my thought, Not so much a point to point one clue after the other… ‘depending on how the poem is interpret.’ Work in the field… we might need to put the clues in a / the correct order. Or see them as they should be from the poem.

            Example; for those who are literally looking for the lines to cross… wwwh can be east of something, that something can be west of another, other something south etc. all lining up/pointing to a location.
            Another example; “the end is every drawing nigh” then clues might draw/come toward the searcher with no movement of the searcher, line of thinking. The poem walks to you idea. Or
            The idea you are at HLnWH [for example] and following the clues by site as they get closer to you… observing it all from near the blaze. A place where all the clues can only be seen from.

            There are many ways to “follow” the poem, including hiking or viewing, on a map or GE etc. But I have to ponder the idea that there are many wwwh in the RM’s, with the thought, that there might be more then one in the poem. Can WWH reference be the same as NPFTM to NPUYC to HLnWL all in different points but all the same.

            Those examples [ in part ] might explain why fenn ‘followed’ his own created clues… the clues point to a small area and can only be seen from that small area… should you be slightly off and miss a clue… you miss the blaze. In theory. The overall Idea you must be on site, not just to retrieve the prize, but “found” ` discover ` its spot.

  55. So Lug and Seeker,

    Here is the only words or statements from Forrest which directly address “Look quickly down, your quest to cease,” its from Mysterious Writings July 14th (weekly question)

    Mr. Forest,
    I was just wondering. If I can find the blase, why should I worry about where warm waters halt? All I need to do is look “quickly down” like the poem says, and there is the treasure, right? ~ Philadelphia Franklin

    “That’s correct Philly, but that’s not a plausible scenario. If you can find a fish already on your hook you needn’t go fishing, right?

    Don’t force those kinds of aberrational thoughts on yourself or you’ll likely walk back to your car with a very light back pack. f”

    So my question is, do you think Forrest’s response suggest that this line is a clue?

    I do really appreciate that Forrest is nice enough to confirm that, looking “quickly down” is all we have to do though (what ever that really means!).

    GCG

    • I interpret it as a clue, but that is just me. Once you find the blaze (whatever that is) – what are you supposed to do then? Well, the poem tells you – Look quickly down. The question is, “What does that mean?”

      It took me a very long time, but I found an interesting definition of “Quickly.”

      Quickly MAY tell you WHERE to look, not WHEN or HOW. JMO – JDA

    • GCG,

      I take this Q&A with more accuracy [for lack of a better term] in the answer[s], than lets say for example the Q&A; IF you ‘know’ hoB why be concerned about WWWH.

      From the kick off of this challenge fenn as been adamant that we need the first clue or bust. His statement you posted; in part; ” but that’s not a plausible scenario” ~ kinda implies the same idea about all the clues solved at home? Yes, In theory, “but not in practice”

      I would say the same idea would be for any and all later clues… it seems he set the poem up this way… a searcher can’t move forward without the first clue. The idea of “IF you ‘know’ hoB…” or “find the Blaze” might be an impossible task without the first clue and there is no way to ‘know of’ hoB or the blaze [or any later clue fenn created as a clue] etc.
      Knowing is absolute, not a good hunch… right? And we have been warn not to work on a hunch.

      Others may not agree, but for me to answer your question; I say yes, “look quickly down” [ and most of stanza 4 ] is a clue[s].

      The only reason I can think of it’s not a clue
      [look quickly down… as to say ‘you are here’ ] is, if the entire idea of fenn’s “special place” is ‘about’ the blaze itself.
      Another words, we really are not ‘looking for a chest full of gold’ – that’s simply the lure. The “challenge” might be about ‘what the blaze is’ and why it might be important/ held in high regards/ respected by fenn, and not so much where it is at, line of thinking. LOL then I’d change my answer to; No.

      {maybe we need Zap’s special coin to pick the right answer, we just need to ask the magical coin the right question}

      That didn’t help much, did it?

    • FF was asked… “Look quickly down”? He answered… “my feet”
      If you can find a fish already on your hook, you needn’t go fishing, right?
      If you can find the TC already at your feet, you needn’t walk further, right?
      Use your feet… ambulate across the rapids.
      OR:
      Another quick possibility which I think I told long ago (maybe I didn’t, I forget a lot these days) is: ‘quick’ is an old term I’ve not found in any of the on-line dictionaries; however, George Washington would tell you it doesn’t mean rapid. It has to do with borders and edges.

      Possibly the benign Q. word is actually a dual clue…
      OS2

      • I’d be curious to that meaning, OS2.

        I also think [ for the most part ] we might need to keep in mind the more obvious usages of a word, to the other words in the poem, as relating to them as a single idea.

        For example; Both wise and quick[ly] means ‘Bright’ [normally meant as witty, clever etc.]
        But we are attempting to ‘decipher’ clues, right? Might the idea then be about something ‘bright’ as in illumination… something the lights up, so to speak, or cast a shadow from a light, idea. Rather than fast for the more common use of Quick[ly].
        So wise and found may refer to a discovery of a light casting a shadow as a pointer from a blaze [ blaze; also mean light ] Which maybe be why gaze was intentionally used to rhythm with blaze as to think of it as ‘seeing the light’ A light source that is only looked at/seen for a short scant of time [ observing the clues, idea ]

        However, thinking about quick as referencing an edge or border can lean towards different ideas. Or even, work with the above ideas, as using the edge of said blaze or find the border of a shadow, line of thinking.

        LOL, can you imagine the amount of time and effort would have to go into just stanza 4 alone to represent a line of this type of thinking using only words? Nevertheless, the entire poem… having it all relate, if we can think the right thoughts.
        Difficult, but not impossible… and surely not easy.

          • Not sure why but I read that in a Yoda voice JDA.

            I also find that interesting Seeker as someone else pointed out a similar idea on the blog (still trying to find it).

        • If you were enjoying Martha’s roasted victuals with one of George’s wines, you might ask a dinner companion to share a quick walk after dinner. …. or you might beam a smile if asked.
          Words are very big things.

          • Hmmm…. words are like that little bottle that hardly held the grapette. All this time I thought that ‘drink’ referred to something wet, perhaps a small stream among a watershed of many sodas.

    • I don’t buy this as a clue. FF said if you find the blaze the answer to where the chest was would be obvious, paraphrasing. If it’s that easy then why would we need another clue? I would agree though that the addition of this line with the blaze may be one clue.

  56. The line in the poem, “Just heavy loads and water high”, causes me to think that line might be more of a confirmation of one might be in the correct area as a hint and not a clue. Let’s think along this line, If I were with someone familiar with the area and I pointed to a road/trail and asks “where does that go” and that someone replies, that it *just* goes to up to a lake/creek higher up. This shows there is no interest where the road/trail goes to.

    To me the word *just'” might mean no significance but is a confirmation and no need to go to water high.

    Just Say’n

    • That’s a good line of thought to consider.

      I have a “no paddle” location that fits this thinking well. When you arrive at the designated creek, “don’t go up the creek because all you will find is heavy loads and water high”. Instead, you cross the creek and keep walking. The creek crossing itself is the waypoint for the clue, and the loads and water above are hints that help you know it is the correct creek. But it is *tempting* to go up the creek because there is a place there that seems ideal both as a place to hide something and as a place to “rest in peace”.

      As it happens, I’ve seen my location in a few of the posted solves around here and on other websites, but those solves invariably *do* go up the creek … and don’t find the chest at the “interesting place”.

    • For me, “Just” means “only.” There will be no paddle up your creek – the ONLY thing that you will find is heavy loads and water high up this creek that you can not paddle up.

      IF (big if) heavy loads = Indulgence, it means that the ONLY thing you will find up this paddle-less creek is Indulgence and water high (Whatever that is).

      Just ponderin’ – JDA

      • Hey JDA,

        I have thought that as well. Heavy Loads (indulgence) water high (waders). also thought beaver dams as heavy loads and water high (no paddle up those) Also, some parks do not allow watercraft. I think all of those have already been considered though. Who knows?? Mr. Fenn.

        Jeff

      • That is close to how I see it as well but heavy loads and water high have nothing to do with the creek but you will see, imo, the same thing Forrest did in the form of a fast moving stream going through vertical walls only water could get through. Of course there is more to that clue then what is written there (imo).

      • That is an interesting way to put it. Honestly the most simple way to put it and I feel the slightest bit stupid for not considering that a valid and highly probable interpretation. Thank you.

    • Crazy thought – just trying to link the poem to hints in the book using imagination. Has anyone ever linked “Whirligig Geyser” to HLWH as it relates to Skippy’s washing machine helicopter on page P.50? It would be pretty funny if the heavy loads were laundry.

  57. for me to look quickly down is to go passed the blaze- not far but away to the next clue – if you are standing by the fire ( sort of speak ) and you move away from there it gets cold (your efforts will be worth the cold ) so the chest is not where the blaze is it all has a different meaning – to look quickly down imo doesn’t to look at your feet or down a cliff for me it means is to move passed or ahead of the blaze of course imo

  58. Well then it seems like a lot of the clues are pretty clear then:
    1) WWWH
    2) CD
    3) TFTW
    4) HOB
    5) NPFTM & EDN
    6) PUYC & HLnWH
    7) Blaze
    8) LQD,YQTS
    9) BTSwMG

    What do you think?

    GCG

    • GCG – Until it is found your 9 are as good as any ones.

      My count is a bit different:
      1) BIWWWH – ATIITCD
      2) NF,BTFTW
      3) PIBhoB
      4) FTINPFTM
      5) TEIEDN
      6) TBNPUYC
      7) JHLnWH
      8) IFBWAFTB – LQDYQTC
      9) BTSWMG – JTTCAGIP

      Who knows? Just Forrest, and he isn’t talkin’ – Good luck – JDA

      • Wow! this is a great exchange of ideas. Here’s my free advice….which is worth the price you pay!

        Defines Search Area and Ground Rules
        1) AIHGAIT
        2)AWMTB
        3)ICKMSW
        4)AHORNAO

        Geographic Location Clues
        1) BIWWWH
        2) ATIITCD
        3) NF,BTFTW
        4) PIBhoB
        5) FTINPFTM
        6) TEIEDN
        7) TBNPUYC
        8) JHLnWH
        9) IFBWAFTB

        Retrieving the Treasure
        1) LQDYQTC
        2) BTSWMG
        3) JTTCAGIP

          • Thanks Fundamental Design. I saw what I thought was a sharing moment about the 9 clues, which I have always wondered about and was hoping others might jump on the thread and share their 9 clues.

        • Worth the price, it sure is.

          Inaccurately represented, the poem was.

          (But thank you anyway for your participation. As always, IMO.)

          • That’s funny. Truth be told I’ve invested about $2k in those clues for air,, lodging, other travel. Will be BOTG soon.

  59. All,
    Feel free to compare your lists of the 9 clues with our list, entered above on 24 April.
    Safe searching, everyone!
    Geoff
    “Have flashlight, will travel”

  60. By April 2013 — 2 1/2 years after TTOTC was published — at least two parties had solved the first two clues. Clue-solving progress apparently remained stuck there for a couple years, and not until November 2015 did Forrest suggest that some searchers *may* have solved the first four clues, but he wasn’t certain.

    So here’s my question: In light of the minimal progress that has occurred over the last 5+ years, do you think Forrest may be reconsidering his statement made in August 2013 on EIS Radio: “You have to find out … you have to learn where the first clue is. They get progressively easier after you discover where the first clue is.”? Given the difficulty that the two-clue solvers seem to be having with the third clue and beyond, it’s hard to make the case that the clues get progressively easier after learning where the first clue is.

    • The discover and learn words in his statement may be the most telling. It is hard to believe that the searchers that found the first two clues learned WWWH based on the poem. Perhaps they got lucky with the first two clues. That is if there is in fact a way to solve the poem as a whole as opposed to clue by clue.

      • Aaron…Even Little Indy couldn’t get past the second clue….which may/may not be an indicator that *they* did not have all the information to proceed successfully?

        • I understand Zap….and have pondered that problem many times. Trust me when I say that I really have exhausted that one completely (Lil’ Indy) and am personally satisfied with my understanding about that. My comment to Aaron was off hand…and very basic really. It seems fairly obvious that the overall problem is the lack of further *correct info* beyond that problematic area(first two clues). Club me please for bringing that debacle up again!

      • Hi ken: in the past I’ve opined that the reason little Indy couldn’t get beyond the first two clues is that Jenny specified her map as a map of the U.S. Rocky Mountains. With such a coarse map, she wouldn’t be able to find the answers to clues beyond those first two.

        Many don’t like this answer because even though Jenny said “all she has” is that map and the poem, what’s to stop Indy from firing up Google Maps, Google Earth, or any number of online maps to get the level of detail she needs?

        So here’s an alternative solution that makes her lack of the right map, her geographic remoteness/inability to travel, or any other excuses whither away. I claim that if “take it in the canyon down” is the second clue, then it’s quite possible NO ONE can get closer than the first two clues: not even Forrest himself or the eventual finder of the treasure chest. How could that be?

        What if Indulgence is somewhere in the canyon that the second clue refers to? Then the distance of the treasure chest from that canyon is: zero!

        • Zap –

          You can Google it. I told you this a long time ago.

          No one can get “closer” to the chest than the first two clues.

          That is my opinion.

          I know your not a fan of co-location of the clues but if YOUR supposition is right than the TC and all remaining clues are there.

          Now think about where you begin and adjust the scope.

          Can’t see it? Then think about other locations for where to begin.

          Off topic question. What radio shows did Forrest listen to as a child?

          • Lug: the clues are not colocated. That’s not an opinion. If they were, the chest would have been found when the first clue was solved in 2013 (if not earlier).

          • The went right past

            They left the poem

            Those seem to support my view. It’s precisely because they are co-located that the chest was not found

          • Lug: Forrest is not so stupid as to have the very first clue provide the chest’s location. No short cuts! You think the people that solved the first two clues don’t read the blogs or Forrest’s ATF’s? The starting points have long since been SCOURED — if only to eliminate that ridiculous possibility.

          • Zap….sorry I hi-jacked your original Q with that pesky *other subject* that most do not agree on. You must have felt compelled to pose/post it for a reason…what do you think the answer is and why?

          • Hi Ken — no worries. Tangents are to be expected here. My main reason for posing the question was that some searchers use that “progressively easier” ATF as “proof” that if a solution has a clue #N solution that is harder than clue #(N-1), then it must be wrong. I was trying to provide some evidence to the contrary: that the failure of searchers to advance beyond the first two clues (after solving those comparatively quickly) is strong proof that the clues do NOT get progressively easier. I agree with your explanation yesterday:

            “Fenn’s opinion is probably not the best base-line given that he knows the answers and where the treasure is hidden.”

      • Aaron,
        IMO, try find a location using the poem as a whole. The poem is describing a specific location. From that location you will be able to find the correct WWWH. From there the clues line up perfectly, the hints are there, and the keyword is all around you. That’s how you know, everything is there & you will have no doubts. Good luck!
        -B

    • Zap…it is hard to make a solid case about that statement and what you are asking. Fenn’s opinion is probably not the best base-line given that he knows the answers and where the treasure is hidden. However….at face value it is encouraging to know that he thinks that is true and may be considered a slight *tell*.

    • oops, I went to post for this line of thought, and ended up in April, thinking it was august… anyway sorry for a re-post, intended it to be here:

      zap: “it’s hard to make the case that the clues get progressively easier after learning where the first clue is”

      I believe you are correct on this. and this is confusing to people about why it should be easier from there on for the clues, I think ff believes it is easier. however the numbers suggest otherwise.

      for instance solving for wwwh, if we were to simplify the poem so it is solving a 1 question riddle. (i believe the whole poem is involved) but for illustration sake.. lets say it is solving a 1 question riddle, now lets say there are a few thousand solutions to this 1 question riddle in all 4 states, (or more if you wish). All you need then is about 5 thousand to 10 thousand searchers all choosing a different wwwh, and someone is going to be correct.

      and that is what happened, the chase generated just exactly enough searchers in the first few years to yield enough to get (a few) searchers with wwwh, and that number has grown naturally as there have been 30,000 searchers, so more searchers with the correct wwwh, of the possible 5000 answers for wwwh, as an example.

      I don’t know if it is 5000 possible answers for wwwh, but I suspect that it is close to this.

      easy to see what is happening really when you think about it like that.

      This is what people are confused about, why did someone solve it so quickly… and only one clue… (well two if you include canyon down)…. well they didn’t, as a group they solved it, but none in the group can say for sure which person(s) in that group solved it.

      that is why….. simple really, now when you scale up to a 4 clue riddle, and/or 9 clue riddle, suddenly we have more than 20 billion answers, and we don’t have 20 billion searchers…. so that is why it is far harder for the next 7 answers.

      see how this works? not directed at zap, but to everyone.

      I believe we have enough searchers that the HOB is correctly identified now. (I actually have more faith in my HOB than my wwwh) but no one is going to know if their HOB is correct, because they dont’ know if their wwwh is correct… I know for sure that my HOB is correct, if my wwwh is correct… but I have no way of knowing if my wwwh is correct… sort of a catch 22. welcome to vonnegut’s nightmare, fun house. or thrill. depending on your attitude.

      but taken the number of searchers that have wwwh correct and dont’ know it, I believe at least a few have HOB correct. yet they will never know. (and may literally never know)

  61. I think things have changed on how many times searchers have found wwh and how far searchers have gone through the number of clues. As far as, “within 200 ft” I believe has not changed and that searchers haven’t been “wise” enough to find the correct blaze.

    I would even venture so far as to say some ATF’s are surely outdated, things can’t possibly remain the same in regards to the number of clues that searchers have correctly identified.

    Just say’n

  62. One keeps hearing about how searchers are convinced or (no doubt) that their solution is correct. only to find it was not, a similar concept is : there is a 1 in a million chance of this (solution) being a coincidence…

    I realized that after generating enough data, that I was generating 100’s, 1000’s of solutions, all of which could be classified into these groups. I am not talking about the silly solutions that you read about where one would say: “what in the world is this person thinking, or smoking”. I mean the solutions that leave no doubt, and the searcher never produces, because there was always a chance that it is still right. (notice how many fall into this category) they say before the botg, that they will produce the solution, then you never hear from them again.

    Absolutely rock solid solutions. I am talking about the solutions where if you handed 1000 searchers the solution, and told them that you found the treasure chest at this location, not a single person would question any part of the solution… that type of solution. But remember I am generating 100’s… how can this be?

    lets look at the numbers, I am going to be very general here, so fill in if you want to be exact, or add to this idea, but my keyboard doesn’t have enough zeros to finish this concept 🙂

    a 6 number lottery where the order does not matter, and you have only 10 numbers in each position, the odds in that lottery are about 30,000,000.
    however if the order does matter, the odds become about 20,000,000,000. notice that the odds suddenly jump up by three extra zeros.

    guess which type of “lottery” the chase is.

    Worse, there are not just 6 positions, there are 9 positions, and worse still there are not just 10 possible answers in each position, I calculated, (and my search area produces); about 5000 different possibly answers to each position. (this depends of course on the position of the answer) for instance the wwwh, only produces 2 answers, and 1 of them I didn’t produce, the solution forced out this wwwh. I don’t even like it, but if you handed someone this wwwh, they wouldn’t question it for a second. (why? because the solution of course depends on, and fullfills itself by using the wwwh)

    so anyway, that type of “lottery” produces astronomical odds. I look at some of these solutions dropping out of my data set, and the odds are literally 1 in a million chance of it being a coincidence, and I just shrug it off; because of course it is 1 in a million. there are literally 1000’s of 1 in a million coincidences that can be produced. THAT is how ridiculous the odds are of the correct solution, even with the correct data set.

    so not to discourage anyone 🙂 but if you were to buy a lottery ticket, every day for the next year, your odds are astronomically better at winning that, than finding the correct solution to this “9 number chase” in the correct order.

    but hey who is counting when one is obsessed. If there is no way of confirming except putting botg, and only after figuring 9 clues… well expect to put 1000’s of botg.

    now if there was a way to confirm the first clue, or the second, or really any number up to about 5, then it would be possible to confirm before botg. however even ff himself says there is no way of even confirming the first clue.

    I got so into this, and good at it, that I could randomly put my finger down on a map in my general search area, as long as it obeyed a couple of rules, I could generate a rock solid solution for that position.

    So, my analytical brain says: (what in the h*** are you doing) there is zero chance at this having a good outcome. of course I am human, and argue with that… futilely I might add…. 🙂

    Why did I write this? I am still trying to convince my self to get out while I still can.

    and if ff happens to pass by this particular paragraph’s vail, or is it vale; I hope there is some sort of key or theme, I don’t see anyone even in a 1000 yrs ever stumbling on the TC, much less solving it, without some sort of confirmation scheme before one has to put botg. With out a way to signal progress, 10’s of thousands of solutions would need to be generated by millions of searchers. I am guessing that there will only be possibly tens of thousands of searchers that are actual searchers (botg) at any given time in history. (this is because the botg that are required is just astonishing)

    This of course will not discourage the fully obsessed, convinced of their first few clues. but atleast let it be in the recorded for them to add to their set of search tools.

    • As with any problem, the appropriate solution algo should be carefully considered. I disagree with your choice of lottery probabilities. Instead, reconsider two option: 1) the probability of finding it’s 10”x10” position within the search area using a brute force “Battleship game” approach, and 2) the probability of finding the key within the TTOTC chapters to solving the entropy of the clues. For most searchers, #1 appears to be the selected approach, while #2 seems to be the only option.

      • I agree with your 2 concepts. and to discourage someone from the first, just using Yellowstone as an example only because it has a name and a boarder; dividing that up into a 10″x10″ square, is a number you do not want to hear. And that is not the correct number, I’ve routinely seen places in the Rocky Mountains where that 10″x10″ square actually has 8 places in that same x and y position. Due to the fact that Rocky Mnts are an extremely 3D environment. And not only that, I believe the TC is hidden.. well of course it is hidden. so that just laying eyes on a spot is not enough, you have to physically search, hands and knees. Metal detector will do you no good, because again, this is the Rocky Mnts… you will find more actual gold flakes than you will find TC’s…. at just about every single position you take… so good luck with that.

        (for the 12′ footers, I believe what ff meant was that your solution brought you to that spot, so yes you would be on hands and knees, and you will find it, but only because your solution brought you there, you will not actually see it from 12′ away, otherwise a “sunday picnic” would find it)

        for the second option, I of course analyze these 100’s of solutions that are dropping out for some sort of key or theme, and while I have seen some. The key or theme seems to apply to only a few of the 9 clues, (as far as I can tell, of course I could be wrong). or possibly three themes for 3 clues at a time as an example.

        so in that case, yea, now I am down to 6 clues and brought my odds down to 1 in 20 billion… yea for me… 🙂

    • Writis: yet in spite of the seemingly hopeless odds, at least two parties solved the first two clues over 5 years ago (at a time when far fewer people had heard of the Chase), and lots of people have been within 500 feet of the treasure — some even as close as 200 feet. Suggests to me that the poem is doing its job pretty well.

      • well, they actually didn’t solve the first two clues, because they don’t know if they did or not; there was no confirmation in other words.

        (the rest of the poem is the only confirmation) This is the crux of what those numbers above are about.

        once you have the first clue, you have automatically canyon down. once you have HOB, you have (not far, …. ) those are a given.

        however, as those people found out, and gave up on… (never to have fortune steer them back) if you don’t have confirmation you have nothing but a fun theory. And not a single person has confirmation. (NOT ONE) That is what those numbers above are really about.

        and to re-iterate what ff has said, people were within 200 ft, but didn’t know it, they also were not the ones that “solved” the first two clues as ff has said. that is something ff confirmed. they were there on a mission of looking at a hunch, which was a correct hunch, and had zero of the poem solved. That is not what the numbers above are looking at.

        again with no confirmation… they literally had zero of the poem solved.

        What those numbers are about is solving the poem… completely. rather than bringing one a “hunch”, and/or a partial solve, a partial solve involves wholly different numbers; of which all of the numbers are really actually worthless, without confirmation.

        • writis…what exactly are you trying to say? I believe that folks involved in the Chase realize that the odds are not favorable, and yet they still participate. This is a challenge that offers everyone an opportunity to match wits with the man that started it…and their level of participation is optional. An active mind sure beats the heck out of scratching lottery tickets in a parking lot outside 7-Eleven any day… Further, because this is the nine clues thread I’ll throw in a comment that says; I think a lot of folks have solved the first clue and some have solved the first two clues and they simply had not figured out where to go from there for lack of thinking the right things. Are you on the fence about continuing or just bored?

          • The above is to give an answer to the number of times one hears about people who “have no doubt” or the “1 in a million, that this is a coincidence”. You know, all the searchers convinced of their solution… why? why so many? all of them different.

            so here is an answer, IMO, I know I was curious how someone could feel they were so confident.

            Heck after see what drops out as solutions from my own data, I am in no way going to say I am 100% sure of my wwwh, even though my human side is. 🙂

            So I guess I am trying to distract my self from a botg; while I generate 18 more solutions, all of them just as good or better than the last. so maybe more “distract” than “bored”.

          • Ken,

            I like to think that some have solved all of the clues prior to the blaze and left the poem because they did not find the blaze and were within 200 ft of the treasure and walk right on by the blaze and the treasure.

          • I know Charlie…That may be what keeps folks motivated beyond reason on a solve that has not produced hard evidence(chest in hand). Maybe Fenn will be more explicit with an update in the near future…
            One of my past solves got beaten to smithereens @ home and botg…it was fun, but definitely rejuvenating to let it go. Good luck…

        • writis,

          I get the numbers part, however you indicated above, “once you have the first clue, you have automatically canyon down. once you have HOB, you have (not far, …. )”, isn’t NFBTFTW prior to hoB, how is it after hoB?

          Or am I misunderstanding what you said?

          • it just is stated out of order, it doesn’t sound right if one were to say, “once you have (not far…) you have HOB”. but I guess you can, hopefully you get my drift.

            which brings up an interesting point… obviously the reason they “solved” two clues. is because canyon down is providing a direction and gets you closer to TC, so it obviously is a “clue”, so really those people solved the first clue, the second clue is a “free be”, I actually don’t count it in my data, (or I call it a hint) only for the sake of the data, I want wwwh, I want HOB, etc… so IMO, there are really more than the 9 things one must answer… making it that much harder. (the possibility of mistaking the order gets that much more complex) combining clues too, should you combine heavy loads, water high… etc.. really makes for some interesting tree graphs, ones that I don’t want to look at anymore… 🙂

        • for that metal detector example, I once got a hit when the metal detector was 4’ above my head, don’t ask me why I would have it in such a position. I think I will go back to that spot someday with a pick axe and make shift ladder, maybe the gold nugget I find in the cliff will pay for a botg 🙂

          that was the first and last time I brought a metal detector.

      • “they actually didn’t solve the first two clues, because they don’t know if they did or not; there was no confirmation in other words.”

        Well, they solved them with sufficient confidence that they put BOTG to go there (not that that’s a particularly good measure of confidence, given that to this day searchers continue to go to all four states!) Forrest seems to believe that there is sufficient information available to “confirm” you’ve got the right starting point, otherwise there would be no way for anyone to “nail down” that first clue.

        “once you have the first clue, you have automatically canyon down. once you have HOB, you have (not far, …. ) those are a given.”

        Yes, agree.

        “however, as those people found out, and gave up on… (never to have fortune steer them back) if you don’t have confirmation you have nothing but a fun theory. And not a single person has confirmation. (NOT ONE) That is what those numbers above are really about.”

        What’s the point of even talking about confirmation if the only confirmation that anyone will accept is a bronze chest? It’s sounding to me like you don’t believe the poem is solvable because there is no confirmation to be had, and therefore we’re wasting our time.

        ” …to re-iterate what ff has said, people were within 200 ft, but didn’t know it, they also were not the ones that “solved” the first two clues as ff has said.”

        He actually hasn’t said the latter. He has never commented on whether the folks within 200 feet were two-clue solvers or not.

        • In my opinion the 2 clue comment is very misleading as to the actual amount of work that has actually been accomplished. I believe the correct solve will require solving the poem as a whole multiple times. For me this helps to explain how so one could be so close but still have more than 3/4s of the clues still to find. So if each of the fist solves narrows down your ares, you could be very close at that point but still require the understanding of the last seven clues in a different light to walk away the winner. So perhaps the people who have made it that close have really solve 22 out of 27 clues or some other multiple of nine.

        • “He actually hasn’t said the latter”

          hmmm, I of course can’t find it now, but remembered it as one of his extremely short answers to someone asking.

          Since I can’t find it, I’ll have to say I am wrong on that.

    • I agree that the odds are pretty steep. What is different than the lottery comparison is that nailing down each clue successively increases your odds more than lottery numbers. Just getting WWWH increases your odds very significantly. One problem is that you do not know that you got it for sure.

      While I agree that the odds are very significant, they are different than the lottery. Still it be a very long time before the treasure is found. My guess is that if it is not found by this generation of searchers that most will give up and think it is not possible to find.

      This is why I think a team effort is the only way it will be found. Even then it won’t be easy.

      • I can definitely say that I constantly consider the possibility of joining a team. I always tell myself if I don’t find it this time… Hopefully the team you are forming is a winning combination.

      • I agree on all of that, Aaron. I think a team effort will be fun and a worthwhile effort. What’s the ETA of it? Been thinking of ways to add value and organize our methods.

        • I’m going to work on the secure website for a team more this weekend. It is a work in progress but the site is findingthechest dot com

          I’ll know more about how long it will take after dumping some time in it over the next few days.

      • All this talk about lottery odds. The odds of solving Fenn’s puzzle has to be a lot less than powerball odds. The lottery is chance, a treasure hunt requires skill (and luck!). I don’t play the lottery.

        • randawg: “treasure hunt requires skill (and luck!).”

          I actually believe it requires “fun”. I hope you understand that this isn’t about the ‘lottery’; it is about the numbers involved, I used the lottery as a visual illustrate so I didn’t get questions on: ‘how did you get 30 million?’

          you can actually calculate your own ‘odds’ by simply putting in your particular ‘options’ in each of the 9 positions, even if it is less than 10 answers per position, it is a number one would not want to hear. Which is the point.

          Now to give some smiles to this otherwise down topic, it sure is a whole lot of fun anyway.

  63. I just posted this over at the Architecture thread, but decided that it probably should be over here:

    Hi all;

    I have been analyzing the Poem’s Architecture (again) and have come to the conclusion that I need to reformat it from how I had been reading it. For about one year I believed that nine sentences = nine clues. Then about a year ago (or so) I decided that the clues are in stanzas 2,3 and 4 and that the hints were in stanzas 1,5 and 6

    I now believe that stanza #1 is a Preamble or Prelude and that the 9 clues are in the remaining stanzas. Here is how I now break it down:

    The poem broken down with a prelude plus 9 clues

    Prelude
    As I have gone alone in there
    And with my treasures bold,
    I can keep my secret where,
    And hint of riches new and old.

    Clue #1
    Begin it where warm waters halt
    And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.

    Clue #2
    Put in below the home of Brown.

    Clue #3
    From there it’s no place for the meek,
    The end is ever drawing nigh;

    Clue #4
    There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
    Just heavy loads and water high.

    Clue #5
    If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
    Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
    But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
    Just take the chest and go in peace.

    Clue #6
    So why is it that I must go
    And leave my trove for all to seek?

    Clue #7
    The answers I already know,
    I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.

    Clue #8
    So hear me all and listen good,
    Your effort will be worth the cold.

    Clue #9
    If you are brave and in the wood
    I give you title to the gold.

    This may not work for some, but it now works best for my solve – Just how I now see it – JDA

    • I also replied over on the Architecture of the poem,

      JDA,

      I disagree with your clue theory. Here’s what I think they are:

      As I have gone alone in there
      And with my treasures bold,
      I can keep my secret where,
      And hint of riches new and old.
      Clue #1 Begin it where warm waters halt
      And take it in the canyon down,
      Clue #2 Not far, but too far to walk.
      Clue #3 Put in below the home of Brown.
      Clue #4 From there it’s no place for the meek,
      Clue #5 The end is ever drawing nigh;
      Clue #6 There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
      Just heavy loads and water high.
      Clue #7 If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
      Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
      But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
      Just take the chest and go in peace.
      So why is it that I must go
      And leave my trove for all to seek?
      The answers I already know,
      I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.
      So hear me all and listen good,
      Clue #8 Your effort will be worth the cold.
      Clue #9 If you are brave and in the wood
      I give you title to the gold.

      Just my point of view. Am I right? Who knows

      I also said, Just a side note: Stanza 1 & 5 for me are those that contain the “few words that will not help you”.

      IMO I hope this may help some, then again……

    • JD –

      Thanks for posting this.

      I have been meaning to ask a few chasers including yourself and Zap how many clues they count in Stanza 2.

      You see 2.

      Lugnutz

        • Zap – You see each line as a clue in Stanza #2? So, that’s 4 clues from 4 lines in stanza #2 – doesn’t leave much room for the others does it?

          5 clues remaining – 5 stanzas remaining – Maybe no clues in Stanza #1 – maybe. So, that leaves 5 clues from remaining 4 stanzas.

          – Interesting – JDA

          • Hi JDA:

            “Zap – You see each line as a clue in Stanza #2? So, that’s 4 clues from 4 lines in stanza #2 – doesn’t leave much room for the others does it?”

            Yes I do, and no it doesn’t.

            “5 clues remaining – 5 stanzas remaining – Maybe no clues in Stanza #1 – maybe.”

            No clues in the first stanza; there can’t be, since the clues are consecutive and the first clue is line 5.

            “So, that leaves 5 clues from remaining 4 stanzas.”

            Yep. But there are also lots of hints, IMO, and there is no Fenn prohibition against them being in any particular order within the poem.

    • JDA,
      How can #6 be a clue as it is presented as a question and you have #7 as a clue for the answers for #6?

      Should the answers need deciphering why would the question ass well?

      • Seeker;

        Although (for me) Clue #6 is a question I think that the words “GO” and “LEAVE” – used together is a clue, and I kinda ignore the fact that it is phrased as a question. – I see it as a rhetorical question – one that needs no answer.

        Although it would “appear” that my clue #7 is an answer to the question asked in Clue #6 I see a clue in the words “Tired” and “Weak.” – and as I said above, I kinds ignore the fact that it was phrased as a rhetorical question . Weird I know, but that’s how I see it? JDA

        • Why would anything be rhetorical [ rhetorical question and/or answers ] in a poem that the author claims; “every word was deliberate” and we shouldn’t “discount any word”?
          Even the idea of answerS is an eye catcher to why there might be two answerS rather than “tire-and- weak producing a single answer.

          So, now I’m curious to how; go and leave connect to tired and weak, as what kinda clue?
          A place
          A metaphor
          A direction
          An instruction
          Do the words produce a word that might be key
          ?????

          • Hi Seeker;

            Good questions – as always.

            I believe that it is an “Instruction” that says to “Travel Down” somewhere. And to look for something that may have been damaged. I will “Know” what to do once I get there – I hope I am correct – I think that “cold” tells me where – JDA

          • Seeker;

            What do you think that this stanza means? Do you agree that it is two “Instructions?” Sure is an interesting stanza – JDA

          • I would love a more detailed explanation of this JDA:

            “I believe that it is an “Instruction” that says to “Travel Down” somewhere. And to look for something that may have been damaged. I will “Know” what to do once I get there – I hope I am correct – I think that “cold” tells me where – JDA”

            Especially how you see travel down and find something damaged. One of the locations I have been I did exactly that but not in context of the poem so you have me curious.

          • JDA,
            Set aside your solve and lets go back to the basics…

            Stanza 5 just might be the glue that binds this all together.
            I think fenn needed us to have the right thoughts [ unfortunately, i’m not that smart ] and this stanza just might be the riddle fenn talked about. It may be the stanza that explains a word that is key… maybe the answer to understanding tired ad weak is that word, line of thinking… or something different altogether-?- a location?

            {through Cynthia’s post a while back} fenn had asked about her WWH and the it happened to be a bridge over a river [ close enough for horseshoes ] fenn’s reply was; she’s “manufacturing” WWH.

            Somewhere [more than likely the poem] something should help the reader with nailing down WWH [ at the very least, the location ] to avoid all the dart tossing and creating WWH out of the thin air. I’m not saying stanza 5 gives an answer, a much as, a thought / idea to how the poem reveals itself.

            A blueprint is no good to anyone unless you can read it properly… a layout, design, plan, representation, model [ no, not that kind of model, the other one ]… We need a foundation of thought, and not so much what material is being used. I think stanza 5 provides this.

            **A rhetorical question usage; … the questioner asks it to lay emphasis to the point.

            We need to understand what “the point” is when we look at the blueprint.

            Well, that’s my take on stanza five… there’s nothing rhetorical as [ a figure of speech for drama or effect or not expecting an answer ]… and more to “the point.”
            This is why I think Stanza 5 is what fenn may have meant as ‘ the riddle in the poem.’

          • Seeker,
            You wrote this:
            “Somewhere [more than likely the poem] something should help the reader with nailing down WWH [ at the very least, the location ] to avoid all the dart tossing and creating WWH out of the thin air. I’m not saying stanza 5 gives an answer, a much as, a thought / idea to how the poem reveals itself.”
            ***
            How is a little girl IN India whose ONLY resources are good english skills, a map of the U. S. Rockies, and the poem (no internet) able to solve the first two clues???

            Oops, her mind is not a blank slate, and it’s possible she may have relevant rudimentary knowledge within – a very subjective thought, but worthy of consideration?
            ( mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-over-five-years-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/ )

            Just a thought.
            Joe

        • JDA,
          Sorry to hear your restructuring of the clues.
          I think you need to go back to the first clue.
          You mize well clean house.

          • JDA, I know the topic is the 9 clues, but how about your “key”? Do you have a key line, sentence, word, whatever that ties in with the clues. Do you think that f would put something within the clue lines to give the searcher some confidence? Some back up info from one of his stories? Or these are the clues and that’s all there is to it? Something like a side note. We already disagree on how to read the first clue, so I was just wondering if you found anything, say outside the poem, that gives a little confidence that these are the clues. Example:
            I see the clues in the lines. Lines: 5.6.9.13.16.17.20.22.24 are the 9 clues. My key line is found in line 9. (not to be confused with a word “that” is key). On a side not with these lines, adding them by stanza, gives:
            0,11,9,29,37,46 or 0,2,9,2,1,1 for the clues and 9 for the key. Add all up and you get the book of days, 29,220. Total days in 80 years. Means nothing but gives a little confidence into what may be. There are other things within the clues, but I think you get the jist. I was just wondering if you have found something within your clues, or think you should find something within your clues. F seems to back up everything, 2 sometimes 3 times over. As Seeker has said, a check and balance system. Some part of something which contains info which may be a basis for some of his stories or comments. I just really feel f would put something within the clues that would add to ones confidence.

          • Don’t get it twisted JDA, I respect that you put this out there. Knowing it could be picked apart. A lot more than most would do. And, it’s not so bad starting over on your idea of how to solve the poem. How else are we to learn, right? It’s tough spending a year or two on research and everything else in the chase, realizing it’s wrong, and starting somewhat over. Nobody is going to one and done this thing, so what you are doing is a positive. And who knows, it might just steer you back to Anaconda, where you should be.:)

          • That is a big change in how JDA sees the poem now compared to before.

            I’m curious if JDA still uses an archaic or obscure definition of the phrase “in the wood” to point to his beginning area in Wyoming somewhere?

            Thanks for sharing your some of your thought processes. I think it’s good to get feedback on how one interprets the poem.

          • Charlie;

            Yes, I have a “Word that is key.” Yes, without this word actually getting to Indulgence is close to impossible – IMO.

            Yes there are confidence builders IMO.

            Charlie:

            I used the “Clues are in Stanzas 2,3 and 4” system – but I was not yet at Indulgence – Was having to use “Hints” from stanzas 5 and 6 to complete the poems riddles and get to Indulgence.

            This made no sense, so it was easy to just make ALL of the clues come from stanzas 2 thru 6 and make stanza #1 a Prelude.

            Had to work on stanza #5 in order to “Make it fit” because it would not make sense (to me at least) to have stanza #5 as
            Fluff” – so there MUST be important info there – I think I found it. NOW it ALL makes sense – again, at least to me.

            Sorry Charlie – not on my way back to Anaconda.

            FD;

            The answer is “YES” – I still use my obscure definition of “in the wood” – it tells me where in Wyoming to go – and that has not changed. Same search area – just a different “way” of searching that area – one that I hope will lead to Indulgence – JDA

    • It seems like I read a question/answer with FF in which he was asked how many clues are in stanza 2 and he answered three or four. Does anyone know where I might have read that? Or am I remembering it wrong?

      I dont understand how anyone can count the clues until they have solved each one, but I’m not saying you are wrong.

  64. Seeker;

    Too long a thread to climb up, so will post here.

    You ask, What is the point? Here is a quote from Forrest that seems to answer your question. It may not be the one you seek, but I think it fits:

    “We are all here only for the pleasure of others, everything living, only for the pleasure of others. Of course, that’s it! That’s why the stone marker said” …and smile at a homely girl.” It had to be pounded into me! That’s why all of Philadelphia was reduced to a thumbnail, to show me that each one is as important as the all, myself, no less than any of them, and no more. It seems obvious to me now that we are all temporary statements, like a cut bouquet on the living room table, to make brief comments in passing and maybe cause a smile, then go on to make room for others who will play their parts…
    If I cannot enrich those with whom I interact each day and cause them to be better for my having passed their view, then I have wasted my turn. That I succeed in this endeavor is not as important as it is for me to make a solid try. For if the try is sincere I have succeeded in whatever failure resulted …. So now, at least for me I know. And if no one should ever think of me when I have passed this vale, it will be of no consequence, for I have finally found my way and am at peace with it all.” f JDA

  65. Seeker;

    You mentioned Go and Tired being connected – Maybe this could be a small stream.
    You also mentioned Leave and Weak – could this be where the small stream disappears?

    Could disappear be the word that is key that you mentioned? Who knows I guess. JDA

    • JDA,

      In keeping with the context [idea] of the stanza, “I” would have to the creek then, right? You’d have to ask yourself; what is the trove the creek is leaving, right? And if so… the “i” in stanza 1 should also be referring to creek with my [its] treasures bold ? LOL then ask where does a creek go alone with its treasures…

      The idea might work if the poem is entirely about water[s] only, but I have a hard time thinking stanza 5 is talking about a creek and why it’s tired and weak and must go and leave while left behind some kinda trove. A trove is of value, and mostly valuable to many or all, where treasure[s] can be of importance to one but not another with no real value to others [ Think along the lines of parents bronzing baby’s first shoes, line of thinking [treasure for one] vs. a chest fill of gold [ treasure for all ].

      What does the creek provide for a trove-?- that ALL would seek, all desire. [ well, besides the much needed water itself, but i hardly call it a trove ].

    • JDA,

      You said above, “Had to work on stanza #5 in order to “Make it fit” because it would not make sense (to me at least) to have stanza #5 as
      Fluff”.

      Believe me there is no fluff with Stanza 5. The question is answered by F,

      From the Metro News on 3-8-2013:

      “I have had so much fun over the last 70 years collecting things I wanted to give others the same opportunity,” said Mr Fenn.

      “It also was my goal to get the kids off the couch and out of the game room and into the mountains where they can smell the sunshine.” f

      “We have a problem with our youth and all of us are to blame. The hidden treasure is my way of giving families an opportunity that might bring them together with a focus and a goal.” f

      “I also wanted to give hope to every redneck out there who has a wife and 12 kids, a pick-up truck, lost his job and needs some hope.” f

      The question in stanza 5 was completely answered by F himself. Also at the end of the stanza he was tired, wouldn’t you be tired at age 80, especially all that F has been through? Along with, would you be tired after lugging 45 lbs of gold to its hiding place at the age of 80, even for most searchers?

      To Tell you the truth I see no fluff, and you even said, “To make it fit”, that sounds like trying to force something that is not there.

      My Friend
      Just Say’n

      • CharlieM,

        But the quotes you helpfully provide are all after-the-fact comments. What I’d like to know is whether the poem itself answers the question contained within in. Or at least if TTOTC answers the question. I really think the poem answers it if someone has figured out the clues.

        • XFiles,

          No, I don’t believe the poem answers the question at all. The book also does not answer the question.

          Yes, it is an ATF comment. But in this instance I would take those truthful comments as to why F hid the treasure.

      • CharlieM;

        Don’t believe all that I post. Yes, “Make it fit” sounds like I was trying to make stanza #5 fit my completed solve. Such is NOT the case. I DO believe that stanza #5 IS a MAJOR clue. I think that almost every word in this stanza plays a role, and WILL play an important role in letting a searcher know EXACTLY where to look.

        I now believe that the question in the first two lines is answered in the second two lines. I think that “go” and “Tired” are related and that “Leave” and “Weak” are related – and Forrest is NOT referring to his past health issues, his age, nor the trip to secret Indulgence. These words relate to a location – JMO – JDA

  66. Aaron’s comment made me think of something that’s been on my mind ever sense I heard f’s statement about 200 ft. If I had emailed f about my botg experience and then found out later that someone had been with in 200ft of the TC. I would have to (assume) I might have been the one. Especially if my party consisted of a female. Because f said she would have searched the country side searching for the treasure, or something like that. The statement f made in the Moby dickens video made it seem like he was familiar with this person. I can not imagine why those people have not been able to retrace every thing they had done and find the TC. I’ve only been doing this for about 6 months. I would love to see a list of the first two clues that searchers from 2011 or 2012 who were pen pows with f. If something like that already exist please let me know.

    • Caboose: Forrest wasn’t referring to the searchers who had been within 200 feet when he made the comment: “Uh, and I’m not going to tell those people who they are, because one of them particularly would faint, I know, and she’d tear the countryside up trying to figure out where they’d been.” The “she” that Forrest was referring to was physically there in the Book Shop with him. Does anyone here know who that woman was? (I don’t — I was wondering if it might have been Cynthia?)

        • Caboose, I believe Zap means that a female in the bookstore would tear up the countryside if she knew where the searcher that was close had been. Thereby implying that this she is a different person than the searcher that was close.

          • Aaron,
            That may be true, either way I believe the list would be short. Speaking of the list, wouldn’t it be kind of nice to have a consolidated list of wwwh from that time frame to help others with their searches.

          • Yes it would, though most of those people have left the chase by now. You can try searching for some older WWWH’s on this blog but there isn’t much. I’ve checked myself.

      • Most likely Stephanie as she was a prominent searcher at that time, as well as in the room. No way to know but that’s what several assume.

        • 10/23/2013 Collected Works Stephanie asked who had been closer, her or Dal. Fenn answered “If I told you that you’d faint.”
          Moby was soon after where this other comment came to life.

        • E.C.: I was going to mention her as a strong possibility (for being the one in the room), but I was fearful of incurring the wrath of Dal for mentioning her name. 😉

      • Zap & others,
        Apologies, this is a little long.

        Most believe it was Stephanie Thirtyacre. But, by the time Mr. Fenn had made those comments at Collected Works and Moby Dickens, Stephanie Thirtyacre had already searched all of the big 4 states. I forget how many BOTG. (maybe 30-50). She had a blog site called chasenet (maybe?).

        After his comments, she pulled everything down from her blog. Later, about two years ago, she gave up. This is all based on my own research, could be unintended inaccuracies.

        I have followed those comments with great interest and invested a good bit of research time. At Collected Works, Stephanie ask “who’s been closer me or Dal” Mr Fenn, said paraphrasing “you would faint” which can be taken in many different ways.

        Later at Moby Dickens at 8min 29 sec Mr. Fenn mentioned searchers who deciphered the first 2 clues and went right passed the treasure. He said paraphrasing “i would never tell them who they are” that part of his comment seems pretty clear and consistent with what he has stated many other times. But, then he decided to say paraphrasing “one in particular would faint i know, she would tear up the countryside” and that was the trigger. He used “faint” directly addressing Stephanie at Collected Works and then later at Moby Dickens used “faint” and “she”.
        I have attempted like most logical minded searchers to dig up those old solves of Stephanie. But, also remind myself of what a huge advantage that would have been for her. And my gut says Mr. Fenn would not have done that and he was especially on his game in 2013 so again my gut says there was no slip.

        My final analysis:

        1. Stephanie could just as easily fainted to learn she had not even been close after 30-50 searches and a substantial investment.
        2. “She” narrows the search community by approximately 65%. search community 65% male 35% female. The “She” is in that greatly reduced community as was Stephanie.
        3. He said he would never tell those searchers who had been that close. I have to take him at his word that Stephanie was included in those searchers.

  67. Zap,
    That has been my wwwh since I started my research. I almost fell out of my chair when I saw Dals post. He was in the exact spot I had just hunted in July. He even took a photo of what I considered a good blaze was along the creek I was following. I have not been able to come up with any other wwh to take into consideration. That’s why I am looking for more ideas on the subject.

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