Where Warm Waters Halt….

JUNE 2018

BY DOUG

 

Doug Meyer wrote a couple of interesting papers on the topic of Where Warm Waters Halt. He wrote the first last March and now  he has added part two. In addition to sharing some personal ideas and thoughts on the WWWH topic Doug is also a skilled technical writer. I think you’ll enjoy the read and his thoughts might spark an idea…

 

The docs are in PDF format and you can read them in your browser, and/or save them to your computer. If you have any questions you can ask Doug in a comment on this page…

WWWH I

WWWH II

 

 

 

 

79 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt….

  1. Thanks for sharing some ideas, but I really don’t believe it’s near the Rio Grande.
    To those that are searching near that river, I would actually go and find a creek!!!

  2. Doug,
    While I don’t agree with everything you wrote, I do agree that a team will have a better chance of finding the treasure.

    • EA;

      As I have expressed before – How can everyone in a group leave their ego’s at the door? I STRONGLY believe in several basic principals about my solve. What happens when the GROUP disagrees? Am I supposed to drop or give up on my long held beliefs just because I am in the minority? For me not only would that be difficult, In a few cases impossible.

      Have you ever seen an Okapi” it has the stripes of a zebra, a somewhat long neck like a giraffe, the body of a wapati, and a face like a gazelle. It looks like it was designed by a committee. This is how I see a solve formulated by a group.

      Best of luck though, if you and get a group together – JDA

      • P.S. I recently took in input from some of my search team, and this input MAY lead us to the place Indulgence is secreted – So, I am NOT completely against group input – IF it makes sense and is logical. Their input met this criteria – I then applied it to the poem and developed a location that meets the requirements of the poem – We shall see. MAYBE trip #18 will be the winner – maybe not – JDA

        • JDA, I have hoped that you would have a good process for input from your team members. It’s no different for any group of searchers that may form…if it meets certain criteria that the group has defined.

          And to answer your question in your first post if you are in a group of searchers, no, you don’t need to give up on certain beliefs you have. That’s the beauty of a group…the group can divide and conquer more than one thing at a time (again if we’re talking reasonable and logical).

  3. Excellent work and write up – thank you Doug. I’m on a similar path, different location. Creede has a small airstrip (paved) and a beat up old Subaru for a loaner car. A competent pilot could easily land there, borrow the car (key is in the unlocked pilot’s office) drive around a bit, and be home that night. Regarding the Rio Grande; I believe Doug is speaking of the headwaters/source/home of the river. It starts as a trickle of snow melt high in San Juan Mountains near Silverton CO. I think the Rio Grande is in the running until it reaches South Fork or Del Norte where it becomes a significantly bigger river. All IMO.

    • What difference would it make if the blaze isn’t white? What if it’s “off-white”,
      or very pale yellow? How about intense yellow, or orange, or red, or even
      gold-colored? I suggest you go back to the poem and the book (TTOTC), and
      don’t even expect much entertainment from these blogs . . . especially in
      view of FF’s “gut feeling” that the TC will be found pretty soon.

      By the way, have you used a dictionary to look up “halt”? If you have, you
      may be in the minority, just like the eventual finder of the TC.

      In my opinion, don’tcha know.

    • “Did you really say the blaze is a white streak, as has been rumored? Thank you, Deb”
      “Thanks Deb! No, I did not say that. There is a lot of bad information floating around the blogs and many posts that are not well thought out.”

    • Virginia;

      Here is the answer to your question.

      Question posted 6/24/2014:

      Did you really say the blaze is a white streak, as has been rumored? Thank you. ~Deb

      Thanks Deb,
      No, I did not say that. There is a lot of bad information floating around the blogs and many posts that are not well thought out. One person said (I’m paraphrasing) “He said the treasure is hidden in the trees. Then he contradicted himself and said it was in the sun. How could it be both.” Makes me wonder if that person has ever been in the forest.f

      Hope that this answers your question – NO, Forrest never said it was white – JDA

  4. Very compelling analysis, If I were 40 years younger I’d be throwing a bedroll and cooler in the trunk tomorrow morning, and notifying the PO to hold my mail for a week. Only one tiny thorn begs for relief …. you said Fenn referred to his hidey place as ‘special’…. but I recall he said the place “was dear to him”. That word “dear’ alway seemed very personal to me. Llke he had a very special encounter with another person there, perhaps a fishing trip with his father where they discussed Skips passing, or he disclosed troubling Vietnam memories, or some very private matter was resolved in love and peace. But your analysis does raise another strong possibility, one of ego and competitiveness; that someday a professional archeologist will be unearthing artifacts in that place, enormously proud of having discovered the site, imagining visions of his ground breaking discoveries and the professional acclaim to follow, when he discovers the chest and the autobiography, and that an amateur had beat him to the punch. He would be torn by indecision about what to do. Interesting, no? Hmmm. OS2

  5. Doug,

    I have just returned from a search of your WWWH 1 paper. I did not find the treasure but I did find the probable location of the William Henry Jackson Bristol Head photo. It is not in the location you described in your paper. I bring this up because the location in your Special Paper is probably on private land and requires a difficult walk on steep terrain leading to a bluff covered with no trees and no evidence of the foreground features in Jackson’s famous photograph. This could be a dangerous location for Searchers to attempt.

    I have a picture to prove I was in the correct location. There are numerous crevices and holes which could be hiding places for the tc. I searched carefully but did not find the chest. You or any other readers are free to contact me for more information.

    • McKendree;

      Sorry you did not find her. Sounds a bit dangerous to me – Please be safe when you search. Thanks for the post – JDA

    • JDA,
      Thanks for your concern. I always try to be safe when searching. That’s why I abandoned the first search area suggested by Doug Meyer. That’s also why I try to bring along my wife, who helps to hold me back from doing anything dangerous.

      McK

      • Smart idea – taking the wife along. Mine has kept me out of trouble more than once. Hope you two had a GREAT outing – JDA

    • Thanks McKendree – that’s a great ‘re-enactment’ shot!

      Cool place too, around and west of the Rio Grande headwaters. Brown and Hermit Lakes (“alone in there”) registered with me too. We ended up poking around further west of Creede, around Pole Creek and north to slide-dammed Lake San Cristobal and Slumgullion Slide.

      Hot enough already here on the Front Range this summer – I’m more than ready to light out for some alpine airs.

      Jake

      • A possible connection between Hermit Lake and Fenn’s poem also occurred to me. I agree that the Rio Grande headwaters is some awesome country. It’s even hotter here in Tucson than the Front Range, and I’m wishing I were back in the cool Rocky Mountain high country. Seeing that Doug Meyer has now come out with his WWWH II paper, I could have stayed there longer, had I seen the blog posts in time.

  6. Thank you for your post and your successful search for the matching location to William Henry Jackson’s photography. I love the “Now and Then” shots and have had a local photographer help me find the right location. He also said the location I thought where the WHJ shot was taken was not the location. Me using google earth has its limitations, but me sharing information and others using shared information might help find the chest. Thanks for sharing the photo and location. Your help in locating the WHJ location will result in many future photographs of this beautiful area and was in my bucket of possible search areas.
    Only one person knows where the chest will be found. And like everyone else, we follow the clues, will it be found in Mineral or Hinsdale Counties, who knows. There are thousands of possibilities in the Rocky Mountains and it would be a shame to look and be so close, not exploring all of the possibilities in the area you are searching. Me doing an arm chair search putting different possibilities into my bucket has resulted in numerous possibilities.
    In my second paper I pulled archaeology out of my bucket. I also have scared trees; (if you are brave and into the woods) in this general location, I have numerous considerations to look for in my bucket. And my point, one should consider all of the possibilities when looking in your general area. Create a search plan when searching, it would be a shame to be so close and not look at all of the possibilities.

    In an article written by Taylor Clark in The California Sunday Magazine, the last sentence of the article, Mr. Clark quotes Forest; “Well, you don’t know where it is,” he said, grinning. “When somebody finds that treasure chest, everybody’s going to say, ‘My God! Why didn’t I think of that?” I would think everyone should have a “My God! Why didn’t I think of that possibility in there bucket.

    Again thanks for sharing, if you are heading back to this area and you would like a real adventure look at the Continental Ranch. (www.continentalranchatcreede.com/cabins.html) I would love to take my grandkids there just to see the expressions on their face when they discover no indoor plumbing.

    • Doug,

      Thanks for your reply. It is gratifying to hear from you regarding my search for the famous photo site. As I told my wife, if we find the matching location for WHJ’s iconic photograph, I would consider our trip to be a success even if we did not find the Fenn tc. Well, we found one treasure but not the other one. I’m still not convinced, however, that the tc is not concealed at the WHJ photo site. There are a lot of nooks and crannies to search, but some of the terrain is too treacherous to be a plausible hiding spot in my opinion.

      Regarding your second paper, unfortunately I was not aware of it until I returned from Colorado last week. Had I been aware of your archaeological site north of the Jackson photo location, I would have checked it out since it was only a short distance from the North Clear Creek Falls overlook which we visited shortly before returning home.

      Your armchair work is greatly appreciated and I hope to hear more from you in the future.

      • A quick question for you, during your trip to Hinsdale and Mineral counties did you check out the location described as “Sacred Shrine” on page 14 of my first paper?
        If you did, did you check the woods surrounding that location? Page 4 picture is from the parking area, along 149. Did you walk that area down to Brown Lake?

  7. Hi all , I don’t write often but I was thinking about the chase today and some thing came up .

    IMAGINATION – Mine began a few years ago . I told this imagination to a select few searchers whom know me well enough to tell. Those are Slurbs , Navajo Keith , Cynthia and Dal. Well I didn’t tell all just a little..

    So let me indulge your minds for a moment if I may .
    I have a question for all searchers . First let me quote Fenn ;
    ” Imagination is not a key , but the way to find the chest”.

    Okay f , I hear you . Imagination , lets look at the word shall we.
    imagination |iˌmajəˈnāSH(ə)n|
    noun
    the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses: she’d never been blessed with a vivid imagination.
    • the ability of the mind to be creative or resourceful: technology gives workers the chance to use their imagination.
    • the part of the mind that imagines things: a girl who existed only in my imagination.
    ORIGIN
    Middle English: via Old French from Latin imaginatio(n-), from the verb imaginari ‘picture to oneself,’ from imago, imagin- ‘image.’

    ” The one who will find wont be able to keep it quite. ”
    ” I think a guy with 5 kids and a pick up could find it”
    ” I left a 20,000 word autobiography in the chest “, ” Maybe the fortunate one who finds it may want to know a little about the foolish man who left it”
    ” Technology will not help you find the chest, but your mind and body change as the clues do ”

    These are direct quotes from Forrest Fenn. So I listen . And I study what he says very slowly and carefully .

    So I pose this question . If Imagination is the way to find the chest , then what must you do in order to understand or find it. Simple you must imagine your self as. Well he said it not me . To imagine your self as.
    Well how, same way he did in the Catcher in the Rye . As he said ” all though the dates times names and places were different , other then that it was my very own story line. ” Who would imagine a coincidence like that could happen ” said Fenn .

    Who among us can imagine them self as? Who can imagine them self as he said ? Who can say that the dates times places weren’t that same but it is the same story line ?

    I have some answers to that but I don’t want to say it just yet.
    Lets look at some of the references I use.
    Number one dates. The Chase starts out on what day , 1-27 when JD passes away . #2 the date that starts the first chapter , Chapter is First Grade, and the date is Sept. 16th . Ok . well lets look at other dates, like
    when he spoke of it a coincidence that a class came in while hanging a portrait of George Washington Feb. 24th Presidents day . Thats why it was coincidence . Lets look at it from Catcher in the Rye , Allie dies of cancer on 7-18 , But Fenn’s brother also passed away . Similar as Fenn said it was .
    Lets add just a short story , ” Never underestimate the power of a quarter” . That is a quarter horse from Brownsville Texas and its Bronze is in Amarillo Texas. It also ties Indian Jones in the story , the last crusade has references there also . Where Brownsville Texas is where the term ” Never underestimate the power of a Quarter .

    And what of the story in the new book about the Leon Bridge and his friends , he listed five. The Leon is a big deal in his life , his Grandma grew up around it and he lived near it in Temple . But also so it is the name of the river his wifes very name Proctor comes from . And so I ask in Texas what lake dose the Leon dump into ? Proctor. And in the country where his wife’s name comes the river is (DeLeon) or in english Leon .And the Deleon dumps into Lake Proctor also in Europe.

    Hey don’t trust me look the stuff up it is there for you to see and understand.
    Fenns name is the most important clue there is .

    And the fact that he said ” Peggy was the first treasure I have ever found ”
    Well if that is true then Peggy possessed riches in order to be a treasure. Well it takes riches to make a treasure dose it not ?
    So ” I can keep my secret where and hint of riches new and old. ”

    Okay Secret , what does the word mean …. it means Fenn said if he didn’t know how to spell a word he wouldn’t use it. In other word he knew what the word meant is why he used them . So secret means to concile between tow things. SO take a quarter and put it in your hands , it is now a secret only you know . So what secret do you keep and hint of riches new and old.

    The point if Peggy is a treasure then what riches are you hiding , and keeping a secret . In other words what secret are you keeping in a ( RICHE ) the is new and old? And which of us can say that these things they can imagine them self as.

    ” Anyone who is over the age of 12 and cant see them self in this mirror then maybe they deserve another turn .”

    Who is it that Fenn is speaking of that will see them self in the mirror and not deserve another turn ?

    Just some thoughts to share. And open to all to comment on .

    Thanks Mike

  8. Zap, I moved this section of your comment here on WWWH thread.
    Zap ~ ‘I consider it a personal triumph to have nailed down a WWWH with such certainty that I don’t even think about it. Forrest said we have to nail it down, otherwise we’re wasting our time and shouldn’t spend time/money searching. So where’s the disconnect? Forrest implies that it is not only possible to figure out WWWH — it is essential. In my opinion, I’ve done that.’

    The problem is you’re used Steganography to discover your WWWH. The idea of this method is to hide a message within something. That right there is not ‘straightforward’.
    You say it’s not considered a code… I don’t see how it’s anything else. A message within a message, or image, or pixels, or drawing, or numbers… has a structure of it’s own, differ to the structure presented.
    Example [ and not a very clever one ] Hal And Louie Talked… Halt. The word halt has nothing to do with the ‘straight forward’ idea of two guys talking.

    A clue has to relate to the subject at hand.
    In this case; “decipher” means understanding; An example is; What is black and white and red all over? [ this example is more effective when spoken, but I’m using it only to ‘show’ the catch ]
    Most will hear black, white and red and think of colors. But if one takes the time to think, and analyze… black and white are not colors. One absorbs all colors, the other reflects all colors… so red should not be ‘considered’ a color… it should ‘mean’ something else, which you know is “read”……….. resulting in a deciphered answer of a correct possibility. A newspaper. It all about what we perceive rather than what should be. Stanza 2’s wording… “take it in” can be an example of what we hope it should be to what the intent was actually meant. Movement vs. Observation, ideas.

    IF this type of system was used [steganography], would it not have been used throughout the entire poem to produce a full hidden result? And if so, the person who discovers the method should have all the answers by now [ 8 years running ].

    IF it was ‘only’ used for discovering WWWH, then the same kinda of ideas could and should be applied to other clues. Example~ counting words in each line of a stanza that produces a four digit number [ one number for each line ] such as 8858, [ possibly and elevation point for a clue, idea ] to be part of a full message and added to your result of WWH, line of thinking. That would be fair game in my book if ‘your theory’ was usable for your WWH.

    A crossword style system would be fair play as well, don’t you think? Leaving the poem exactly as is, and matching letters to make up 9 words horizontally, vertically, backwards etc. basically say; you need to be here.

    In all honesty; IF a “method” like the one you are using is remotely usable for this challenge… you shouldn’t be here chatting with me, debating the method. This challenge should be over. The simple fact it has failed you, screams, Nope.
    These types of hidden messages methods [ once known ] *has to produce the answer* [ in this case, all the answers and a find ] or the system / method is a wrong approach. If the system didn’t do just that, a find… The the user of this method is target fixated, refusing to except the answer/method is wrong.

    Nothing here say to me…. What took me so long? Because it shouldn’t have taken this long, with any of those type of methods/systems, if the correct method of finding a hidden message was usable for this challenge.

    • Seeker,

      Would you mind directing to zaphods full original comment. I couldn’t find it,

      You wrote:
      In all honesty; IF a “method” like the one you are using is remotely usable for this challenge… you shouldn’t be here chatting with me, debating the method. This challenge should be over. The simple fact it has failed you, screams, Nope.

      Is it implicit in your comment, that a coded message (clues) approach should be easier / take less time, than a non-coded approach? From what I’ve seen in the forums, the many are using a non-code approach. So, by the sheer power of numbers, using your reasoning, the chest should have been found, unless a non-code approach is much more difficult. Due to the possible number of codes, known and unknown, and the challenge of first, their discovery, and second, their correct application, this does not seem likely.

      astree

      I believe I understand Forrests straightforward comment, consistent with my comment but do not wish to go into detail. But, you already have the seed of its explanation in your post.

      • Astree,
        The particular comment is in the new SB, [ and was talking about how WWH can be figured out ] But Zap and I and other’s have been chatting about his is all the threads, unfortunately, making it difficult to remember what was said and where is can be found. And yes I say chatting, but others think it’s fighting lol… we’ll just call it at times, a lively bucking of heads.

        But to your comment ~’Due to the possible number of codes, known and unknown, and the challenge of first, their discovery, and second, their correct application, this does not seem likely.’

        As I said ~ if ‘known’ of the correct system [ Zap using the Steganography idea ] the solve can not fail. That is the whole point. These systems of hidden work within a work ‘has to’ produce the correct outcome. It is the whole point of using thee systems.. to get the correct message to someone but hiding it from others. Yet again < if known, the system can not fail, or take so long to decode, it the war is already over.

        I'll add; many have tried just about every type of system, even the L&C style, Morse code, etc. even used computer programs to discover a system… all thus far as failed. If it happens to be a fenn made up system… is that straight forwards with no subterfuge / deception? Because that is exactly what a hidden message is. A clue is a clue that leads to a conclusion relating to the clue.

    • This is “Doug’s” wwh thread…not THE wwwh thread…but who pays attention anyway? Although steganography is technically not considered encryption…it is still a type of “code”. I believe anyone going down that type of path is doomed before they even begin. For the layman…steganography would qualify as a code…one that requires a specialized type of knowledge to understand…and not one that the average person would have knowledge of. I looked at some of these possibilities early on…never took it anywhere because of the many ATF.
      I tend to agree with SEEker that a wwwh decipher using stegosaurus manipulation…should likely “continue” throughout. That kinda leaves us back at your wwwh Zap. I know you are stuck hard on your wwwh…however…I believe at this point it is probably incorrect. The riddle/poem is supposed to get easier according to Fenn…not harder. This tells me that folks who were at that juncture knew nothing.

      • Hi Ken,

        I think Mr. Fenn got us again with that ATF. IMO, the clues do get easier to solve as you go, but the directions in the clues become more difficult to follow. Hence the “dizzy”ness and the “” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles?” comments.

        My opinion only.

        • Oh yea, and the comment: “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

          That is part of why I *think* I may be in the right area. The poem has me going in circles, but I know the path to the treasure is direct. So……trying to find the “direct” path.

          • “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

            This ATF confirms my theory that it is possible to find the correct chest location “without leaving home”!

            And much possibly “all in one.”

        • kk…could be…but I seriously doubt it. Some of His ATF can be debated to pieces…usually to the far extremes…I believe they are straight forward and not misleading. I think folks are misleading themselves because they are stuck….

          • Ken,

            I agree with your thoughts on people misleading themselves…..and that the meaning of ATF’s can be debated endlessly….I in no way think that FF is purposely misleading us…..I am ascribing to agree with him on the clues getting easier to solve, I just don’t think their directions get easier- and I think Fenn keenly understands this- it is part of the arichtecture of the poem.

            For example: You can go “down” a trail that runs east and west in direction. Or you look “down” in elevation. Or you can follow a river “down”stream.

            So even if you are in the right general area (or even a wrong one) a person can go in literal circles following the poem, depending on how one interprets the directions.

          • Sorry Ken, I just realized my example isn’t a good one because it only partially explains what I need to….and I can’t show a map. I am not very good at explaining the vision I have 🙂

            I can’t say what I want to say without giving to much away.

          • kk ~ ‘…a person can go in literal circles following the poem, depending on how one interprets the directions.’

            Right, I agree… and that is what seems to be happening.

            Is that all the poem is? a hit and miss searching of an area until you exhaust all the possible routes, until you find the Goldilocks zone.

            That method doesn’t have any of the ideas;
            Certainty of the location beforehand, or walk right to the chest, or the direct path, or anything relating to a result ‘prior’ to searching.
            This has searchers needing to physically eliminating many dozens, if not hundreds, of directional point to try… With only the hope the first one works

            In stanza 2 alone some of the possible ideas might be; Take it in, not far, put in. If a searcher changes one and leaves the other two alone [for now] That’s already two trips.
            Then goes back and return the first clue [assumed directional clue] to its original idea and change something else, goes back and rinse and repeat… Now do that with any word or line or part of… it’s a hit and miss solve of eliminations only. [ your example show this as well].
            Unfortunately… it seems many are doing just that, In the same location, over and over again.

            LOL if there’s no human trail there now.. there will be one by the end of solving the poem, with idea that process in mind.

          • The wisdom of Ken – I think folks are misleading themselves because they are stuck….

            I’m as guilty as anyone else,

          • Seeker,

            I think I figured it out.

            “Is that all the poem is? a hit and miss searching of an area until you exhaust all the possible routes, until you find the Goldilocks zone.

            That method doesn’t have any of the ideas;
            Certainty of the location beforehand, or walk right to the chest, or the direct path, or anything relating to a result ‘prior’ to searching.”

            We all learn differently, and we all take action differently. I have had to put botg to get to each “point” on the poem and to come to an understanding of the clues and how to unlock it. I have made almost 10 trips since mid February to my “area” and each time, I make significant connections either halfway back home or a day or two after getting home. I am more of a “hands on” kind of person.

            A person like you I suspect you might be (this is a compliment 🙂 ) may be more cautious in coming to an understanding- meaning you will understand everything before you jump- meaning once you figure it out, you will go right to the chest, or almost right to it. (“GE can’t help with the last clue”).

            Of course this is speculation on my part, based on my solve & what I think I have put together since returning home Thursday night. (Again those darn post trip connections/understandings).

            Just out of curiosity, do you live in one of the search states, and if so, would you care to share which one?

          • KK ~’A person like you I suspect you might be (this is a compliment ) may be more cautious in coming to an understanding- meaning you will understand everything before you jump- meaning once you figure it out,’

            It depends on the situation at hand to how I react.
            If I was to help Swwot [ I think it was Swwot ] knock off a stubborn rusty part on his truck, I would grab a bigger hammer, with little or no hesitation.

            The challenge was present as a thinking challenge… so that is my approach.

            If the wife say bring home milk. The first method normally gets me into trouble, because I may grab a six pack with little or no hesitation.
            But I’m older and wiser now… so I think about how not to screw up the task at hand ,and write it down on my ‘honeydew’ list so I don’t forget… which unfortunately, I left on a shelf in the snack aisle and then got six pack to wash down the Twinkies.

            Me and my dog are best buds.

          • Seeker, you really made me chuckle. Mine called yesterday because he was going to the store and wanted to know if I needed anything (we live about 20 miles from the grocery store) I asked him to please get some bread.

            He arrived home with everything except what he went to get a the store in the first place, and you guessed it, he also forgot the bread that I asked for.

            Yes, time does season how we work to handle things. Growing up, my Dad always told me to work “smarter” not “harder”. 🙂

          • The logician’s wife asked him to go to the store. “Please grt a loaf of bread. If they have eggs, get a dozen
            .”

            The logician returned home with 12 loaves of bread.

          • kk…I get what you mean when it is hard to explain the vision. I could…I am just not willing to.
            At this point in the Chase it is evident that the folks Fenn talks about that were at first two clues and failed…did not know anything…at least with any amount of forward certainty. If they did…the chest would have been found by now. For those that believe that they know the first clue and yet continue to fail are a further assurance this is true and will continue to be until the entire riddle is pieced together…like Fenn’s mythical ball of string.
            The ATF “sure for the one …” is a clear warning of what I am saying….the whole enchilada…or canasta. I believe it is futile to search until the puzzle/map is clear beyond doubt….short of actual retrieval. The directions on the map will be clear as day in my opinion….”…but sure for the one who did.” Make no mistake…taking the show on the road is a whole other story!

      • Ken, ‘… code…one that requires a specialized type of knowledge to understand…and not one that the average person would have knowledge of.

        Lets talk about special knowledge for a moment.
        IF fenn placed in the poem a need for something to be known, but, did not explain how it is used, would that be considered special knowledge? and fenn not having any expectations.

        Is a Comprehensive knowledge of geography, special knowledge?
        I mean, just reading the poem once yells geography, as land features… even a stegosaurus can manipulate the thought of that. But if the “average person” doesn’t have a vast or extensive or reasonable knowledge of it… would it be fair to say, because fenn suggested geography… to “learn more about it”?
        Or even learning to read a conventional map? LOL, I know many that can’t. { I asked someone, How far is it from this point on the map to that point on the map, whle they were trying to give me direction over a phone… they answered; a fingers length.} Case in point. [ pardun the pun ]

        Fenn did say we need to “learn” what WWWH is [paraphrasing].

        So is it also possible [ even though I don’t have a ATF to back up the thought ] we could conclude something actually stated in the poem as a means needed to be used-?- and may need to learn it, if not known to many, but yet still known to all?

        My “example” would be { yep again, and only for an example}
        Tarry Scant to be Tarry point, or at the very least, to mean calculating something mathematically.

        So, IF a clue is representing something needed to know about [ and if that is correct ] would it be considered special knowledge if fenn indicate the idea of it {int the poem} is needed?
        It doesn’t matter if you or I or anyone else agrees with the example… I’m asking overall… if a clue deciphers as such, does it fall inline of the idea of “learning” about it.
        I mean.. if you asked 20 people on any street-corner, what is a watershed? You’d get some pretty wild answers. And should the idea of RM’s watershed be involved [ in theory ] is it special knowledge to “learn” about it? Eve though the above “Should be known of” ~ at least in part.

        What do we need to ‘learn’ about in regards to WWWH or any clue for that Matter? Where it is and/or what its reference is [a deciphering of it] doesn’t seem to be working well, by itself.

        And before anyone chimes in; the book will help with that… that’s not the point… the point is, could the poem explain what is *needed to be learned* about in order to solve it?
        And possibly a reason fenn ‘may have had to’ follow his own clues?

        • Seeker…sure…I believe that if an amoeba knew how to read and knew everything we all have at our disposal, it would have as good a chance as the rest of us.
          First off…let’s look at the word “comprehensive”. The “average person” might mistake that to mean an “in-depth” or “thorough”.
          Because Fenn has indicated that this challenge is to get “kids” and their families off the chaise lounge into nature…I believe he was using that word(comprehensive) to inform us that the knowledge of geography was all-encompassing and general in nature. As in…all elements of nature including the human interference/interaction…not just one element.
          So(conjunction), what about “learn”? I think the tricky part about this is that I believe Fenn was telling the truth when he indicated that this might go on for a thousand years. For someone to just come along and solve this right out of the box and shuffle out to a location and pick up Indulgence, well…that ain’t gonna happen in all likelihood.
          Figuring out the first clue and taking it to the next level I believe is going to require an overall understanding of the puzzle/riddle/poem…which I believe is a melding of all words/info in the poem. In it’s completed state it will be a map to follow to the treasure.
          The first stanza I think has enough info to lead someone to the correct area…if they pay attention. I do agree that Fenn’s “average person” may not be the exact standard. I know a lot of very intelligent folks…but most of them get lost in the supermarket and probably would not know about a Tarry Point, and most likely are not familiar with steganography.
          This challenge has proven that Fenn’s definition of “average” is not normal. It took the man literally years to come back and say it is a riddle…that to me opens the doors wiiiide to a playing field that ANY person, young, old you name it can run with. Figure out the riddle…apply it …and proceed.
          Let’s talk about your “take it in” hippotheory for a second. Seriously, I had that brain cramp for a long time and still go back to it occasionally to weigh other possibilities. In your explanation of it you never tie it in to what happens before you get to the “take it in” viewing. Or at least I can not garner that idea from your wording. Is the preceding “it”(begin it) the same it as the “take it” ? If so, how did you get there? If not, how did you get there? I mean…how did you decide where that was?
          My answer …before I forget…I believe that the poem can lead a person to the treasure with some help from a map and the book.

          • Ok, Ken,

            In regards to the “take it in” “begin it” few things come to mind.
            1. The use of plain English with the difficulty of not understanding exactly the word or words as intended… many, almost all, read the line as a movement [ at least at first ]
            2. “Begin IT” is a needed location to do just that… the proper location… maybe even an exact spot. Especially if the theory is; that we might view most or all the clues from this location… the observation part, of needed to be on site and “nailing down” the first clues as; fix, exact spot.
            ~Fix; direct one’s eyes, attention, or mind steadily or unwaveringly toward.
            ~IT; as in Identifying something [ example He was looking at it… IT now needs to be something to look at: an object, a place…
            [ Two examples of word’s meaning and usages, that normally are not thought of as the same.]

            Funny how some words are not thought about in manners like this, yet gaze is automatically considers exactly as above, only because it is more commonly used as to: look. While IT doesn’t click in the brain that way. But yet, IT means that when added with “Take IT in”

            We are also told to observe… Well, is that not what “take IT in” means? to view…

            So in a quick example of the line / sentence; Begin observing where you are needed to be at, and look down… lol… funny how “look” down is in the poem as well as gaze. Canyon is a place to do that looking.

            But in fairness the line can mean “go in the canyon down”… the only difference is… what the searcher can do… stay or go. And all depends on reading the poem’s word meanings as fenn intended.

            I could go on with words/word and usages
            But I think you get the gist… there are several words in the poem that mean the same as the overall meaning of observe… if one takes the time to look / learn at the meanings.

            With just that small example; can you imagine how difficult it would be to write this 166 words poem in this manner with word usages, and present it as straightforward and still make it difficult?
            I mean, seriously that could take years to create and have folks running all over the mountains, to stomp out clues… right?
            Only I think the pot is worth the effort… right?

            NO not that pot…Coloradan… the Take…no not that take.. the prize, right! the prize was the word I was looking for.

          • Fine Seeker…you still skirt the issue about what defines “IT” in your take it in theory. In the traditional sense/definition…”previously mentioned” comes to mind for me and follows the almighty ATF check/balance. This leads a searcher back to the info in the first stanza which obviously should have some prior importance…unless you are in the useless stanza camp? In your “all in one viewing” theory…”it” somehow has to be magically determined at the point of the “begin it”…doesn’t make sense really and screams that your “it’ is an “existential” element and that ain’t gonna go no where. The only other way I can understand your idea is if you are saying that “later” info must be pulled from later in the poem to be used out of order?

          • Ken
            IT is the view. In this case.
            But for IT to have meaning to stanza 1… This ITiot is still having a hard time figuring ‘it’ out.

            It could be; in there o Hint of riches or the meaning of new and old… or even what tired and weak refers to, or what wood might mean or or or or… the book… ooorrr…

            I never said I was the sharpest tool in the shed… only good lookin.

  9. You have to learn how to solve the first clue. They get progressively easier after the first clue. That’s what ff said. Codes and ciphers won’t work. The massively embellished stories in trots have hints that will help you with the clues. Why people choose to ignore this advice is beyond me.

  10. ken on June 23, 2018 at 1:54 pm said:

    kk…I get what you mean when it is hard to explain the vision. I could…I am just not willing to.
    At this point in the Chase it is evident that the folks Fenn talks about that were at first two clues and failed…did not know anything…at least with any amount of forward certainty. If they did…the chest would have been found by now. For those that believe that they know the first clue and yet continue to fail are a further assurance this is true and will continue to be until the entire riddle is pieced together…like Fenn’s mythical ball of string.
    The ATF “sure for the one …” is a clear warning of what I am saying….the whole enchilada…or canasta. I believe it is futile to search until the puzzle/map is clear beyond doubt….short of actual retrieval. The directions on the map will be clear as day in my opinion….”…but sure for the one who did.” Make no mistake…taking the show on the road is a whole other story!

    Ken, KK, Seeker and others,

    Ken has stated very clearly, in my opinion, almost my exact feelings/suspicions concerning why no one has picked up Indulgence yet.

    FWIW, I have bit my tongue, and continue to do so, concerning anyone picking up Indulgence any time soon. There was a whimsical notion put forth that Mr. Fenn had a “gut-feeling” that someone would pick Indulgence up this summer. Here’s the problem I have with that notion, if I had solved the poem and was making preparations for retrieving Indulgence, I wouldn’t tell anyone except my hiking buddy and my wife. Once I had it in hand, then I would start letting folks know that the search was over, including Mr. Fenn. But I suspect he would already know that. Maybe others are more open with Mr. Fenn than I am. There’s still a lot of summer left for his gut to be right, but I am still a wondering…

    All in my opinion,

    • swwot…I believe Fenn’s “wavering” is because the “correct” searcher/s has not made plans to go search…at least not talking about it on the blogs or with Fenn.

  11. I Can Keep My Secret Where,
    What we have learned is Forrest can keep his secret and he is very ambiguous in describing the elements of the poem. So why would one think if Forrest is putting hints in his books these same ambiguous elements wouldn’t apply. When Forrest writes of areas within the Rocky Mountains that are special to him, why would one think the chest is hidden close to one of these locations? If he did give this type of hint would it not be out of character for him and would it not defeat the purpose of the hunt.
    I would speculate one will not find the “General Location” of the chest in one of his books. His secret is a location he has kept to himself all of these years. A secret that has special meaning to him. One might find a hint, a word or two, maybe a sentence or two in his books regarding the subject of why this place might be special to him, but giving the location would that not be giving away too much. You be the judge!
    Look at your own life, we all have fond memories we could write about that could be special. Things that shaped who we are today. Things we would like to share and be remembered for. Maybe just maybe we wouldn’t write about say one special place, a private place, a place where we might want to hide something. A place we would want to keep secret. As Forrest has hidden the chest, and he can keep his secret, why would Forrest then write about that “General Location’ of the chest, giving that information only to those who purchase the book.
    Just me again, I would offer this bit of unless information (to some), if Forrest speaks of a location in his books, he would not be keeping his secret if the chest is hidden close to that location. And again, just me, maybe a hint would be something, as an example, along the line of how he felt when he found his first arrow head. I would offer this special place might be where he found a Clovis Point that he has kept the location secret all of these years. Maybe just maybe, (again speculation on my part) the secret might be, a Clovis Point he found that was incorporated into the famous Fenn Cache. All told, the 56 artifacts in the cache weigh about 18 pounds, a significant load for a hunter likely also carrying food, tools, and other items. The weight and quality of the artifacts, along with their association with ocher, their pristine nature in many cases, and the simple fact that they were found together hint that this was a prized collection for one or more of America’s first inhabitants. It is interesting to me the Fenn Cache a prized collection and the Fenn Chest another prized collection.
    Knowledge of the initial discovery of the Fenn Cache is reported to be “vague and ambiguous.” There is no name given for the finder. One report of the discovery of the Fenn Cache describes it as having been found in a cultivated field. Another account describes how it was found in a “skin bag” inside of a dry cave. One fact, the Fenn Cache has more Clovis points than any other cache discovered. Exactly how the Fenn Cache was originally discovered will probably remain a mystery.
    The Fenn Chest another prized collection, do you think no name will be given of the finder and the location of the discovery will remain a mystery. Just take the chest and go in peace. Ambiguous hints, parallels and analogies. There could be hundreds relating to different things one might discover during this quest.
    Forrest has said, all you need to find the chest is the poem. But the Hints if discovered just might help, the question; what was the hint and why would it be given?

    • No one knows the answers to your questions, but Forrest – and he isn’t sayin’.

      Although when asked, Forrest has said it is out of his hands, when it comes to how long the quest will last. Will it be found in Forrest’s lifetime, or not? Only time will tell.

      IF I were Forrest, I would be having the time of my life. He created a legacy. He created a “Game” that can be played by the rich, and the poor. Played by the smart, and the not-so-smart. – By the young and the old. By those with intellect, and those with imagination – W O W. To sit and watch the “Little
      Fishes” scurry about as he throws bread crumbs or food pellets into the water – W O W – What FUN!!!

      Forrest is doing EXACTLY what I would do if I had been smart enough to create this “Game”. Smiles galore – 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 🙂 JDA

  12. JDA, do you know what Forrest means by stout hearted men? I never could figure that out. I wonder if either of my dads would fit this category?

    • These words are from an Operetta – “The New Moon” from back in the mid to late 20’s. Here are the lyrics:

      STOUT-HEARTED MEN
      From “New Moon”
      (Sigmund Romberg / Frank Mandel /
      Laurence Schwab / Oscar Hammerstein II)

      Nelson Eddy

      Also recorded by:
      American Patrol; Percy Faith; Gay Mens Chorus of Los Angeles;
      Allan Jones; Dorothy Kirsten; Jeanette MacDonald;
      San Francisco Gay Men’s Chorus; Shooby Taylor.

      You who have dreams, if you act they will come true.
      To turn your dreams to a fact, it’s up to you.
      If you have the soul and the spirit,
      Never fear it, you’ll see it thru,
      Hearts can inspire, other hearts with their fire,
      For the strong obey when a strong man shows them the way.

      Give me some men who are stout-hearted men,
      Who will fight, for the right they adore,
      Start me with ten who are stout-hearted men,
      And I’ll soon give you ten thousand more.
      Shoulder to shoulder and bolder and bolder,
      They grow as they go to the fore.
      Then there’s nothing in the world can halt or mar a plan,
      When stout-hearted men can stick together man to man.

      Give me some men who are stout-hearted men,
      Who will fight, for the right they adore,
      Start me with ten who are stout-hearted men,
      And I’ll soon give you ten thousand more.
      Shoulder to shoulder and bolder and bolder,
      They grow as they go to the fore.
      Then there’s nothing in the world can halt or mar a plan,
      When stout-hearted men can stick together man to man.

      The New Moon is the name of an operetta with music by Sigmund Romberg and book and lyrics by Oscar Hammerstein II, Frank Mandel, and Laurence Schwab. The show was the third and last in a string of Broadway hits for Romberg (after The Student Prince (1924) and The Desert Song (1926)) written in the style of Viennese operetta. It spawned a number of revivals and two film versions, and it is still played by light opera companies. The piece turned out to be “Broadway’s last hit operetta”,[1] as World War II and the Golden Age of musicals approached.

      Just a bit of history from and “Old Guy” – A bit before my time, but I still remember the song – Thanks for asking – Yes, I bet you Dad and Grand Dad were “Stout Hearted Men – JDA

    • Shooby Taylor performs a song by the same name. The lyrics of which accurately describe the feeling you have after searching your strongest theory and walking back to the car empty handed 😉

      Here’s a link to the YouTube video (if it will post): https://youtu.be/fX_120DMFDQ

    • By Reese Schonfeld written in 2007 and updated in 2011
      I never considered Oscar Hammerstein a military strategist, but he laid down an extremely worthy bit of advice to Presidents, Pentagons, and General Officers when he wrote:
      “Give me some men who are stout-hearted men
      Who will fight for the right they adore
      Start me with ten who are stout-hearted men
      And I’ll soon give you ten thousand more-ore”
      In 1961, John F. Kennedy enlarged and transformed the “Special Forces” a relatively small, elite U.S. army unit and christened it the “Green Berets.” They did so well in Vietnam, John starred in a movie about them. But in 1985, an army captain writing about our errors in Viet Nam said the Green Berets were a great mistake. He thought that stout-hearted Green Berets should remain in regular army units to provide leadership and make better soldiers of the other men in their units.
      By the end of the Viet Nam war, our army had fallen apart. It was undisciplined, “fragging” of officers and noncommissioned officers was not uncommon. Dope was everywhere. Had the Green Berets been spread over the general forces, would it have prevented military deterioration? Oscar Hammerstein thought so.
      George Bush and Donald Rumsfeld created a new elite: mercenaries hired by private contractors. When their terms of duty expire, Navy Seals, Special Forces (no longer “Green Berets”) and the British SAS are wooed by the contractors to provide security for, among other things, the rebuilding of the Iraqi infrastructure. Contracts are awarded on a cost plus basis. Contractors re-bill to us their security costs and mark them up. They can and do pay their security men six figure salaries. (Contractors say that they spend as much as thirty-five percent of their revenues on security.) Six figure salaries lure some of the best of the Special Forces from military units to private payrolls. The best of the NCOs often go there too. They’ve all become mercenaries.
      Hammerstein’s “ten men who are stout-hearted men, who will soon give you ten thousand more” are no longer in the regular army. Most of the troops that remain are ordinary soldiers, who lack the leadership qualities of “stout-hearted men,” the men who had the ability to lead by example, the ability to turn average soldiers into heroes.
      It seems to me that Oscar Hammerstein had a far better understanding of male psychology than JFK, George W. Bush or Secretary Rumsfeld. Men are at their best when competing, when trying to outdo others, trying to prove they are the best. No man wants to seem a coward. “Stout-hearted men” do not turn and run. If the bravest are fighting for Halliburton, who will turn waverers into zealots?
      Hammerstein opens “Give Me Ten Men” with:
      Hearts can inspire others hearts with their fire
      For the strong obey when a strong man shows them the way
      He ends with:
      There’s nothing in the world can halt or mar a plan
      When stout-hearted men stick together man to man
      Maybe, if we’d spread our bravest, Iraq would have gone another way.

  13. This has probably already been covered, but I haven’t seen comments so figured I’d ask: does anyone find is curious why FF has multiple pictures of Eagle’s Nest on his FB page, posted a few years apart? Is he trying to tell us something? A sunset picture looking down Highway 64_asking “where is the blaze?” …and then post a few weeks ago about Idlewild mine which is very close to that area [ riches new (chest ) and old (abandoned mine)]. There are some very intriguing WWWH locations in this zone, which I know have been searched A LOT….

  14. Just as a minor correction… It’s “Eagle Nest” not “Eagle’s Nest”.

    That eagle went alone in there! 🙂

    Regards,

    –Fennatical

    • Where the golden eagle coins live thanks Fennactical. Did FF say that WWWH was not associated with a dam, or just that the chest was not hidden near one? Can’t find that quote. Either way I’m having trouble figuring out Eagle Nest’s part in all of this, except that when I go search I’ll stay in that Econo Lodge, and head west into the setting “blaze.”

      • Hey-O, MikeD

        ” . . . not related to any dam.” (scrapbook 68 here on HoD)

        Go to tarryscant.com and search “not related” – you’ll find an additional brief discussion of the point between ff and Richard Eeds in ff’s second appearance on Eeds’ radio show.

        Jake

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