Where Warm Waters Halt….

JUNE 2018



Doug Meyer wrote a couple of interesting papers on the topic of Where Warm Waters Halt. He wrote the first last March and now  he has added part two. In addition to sharing some personal ideas and thoughts on the WWWH topic Doug is also a skilled technical writer. I think you’ll enjoy the read and his thoughts might spark an idea…


The docs are in PDF format and you can read them in your browser, and/or save them to your computer. If you have any questions you can ask Doug in a comment on this page…







36 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt….

  1. Thanks for sharing some ideas, but I really don’t believe it’s near the Rio Grande.
    To those that are searching near that river, I would actually go and find a creek!!!

    • Hi Amy: I agree. Forrest has more or less eliminated that river from contention with his safety bulletins.

    • Amy, your right and Mr. Fenn has sad numerous times it’s not near that river!
      What is wrong with people?
      Mr. Fenn was 80 when he hid indulgence, why don’t people listen to him?
      Thanks for sharing, hi Amy!❤️

      • I thought and still do that its a creek we are looking for not a river I also think we should not force our solves to a point of death be safe out there where ever there is

  2. Doug,
    While I don’t agree with everything you wrote, I do agree that a team will have a better chance of finding the treasure.

    • EA;

      As I have expressed before – How can everyone in a group leave their ego’s at the door? I STRONGLY believe in several basic principals about my solve. What happens when the GROUP disagrees? Am I supposed to drop or give up on my long held beliefs just because I am in the minority? For me not only would that be difficult, In a few cases impossible.

      Have you ever seen an Okapi” it has the stripes of a zebra, a somewhat long neck like a giraffe, the body of a wapati, and a face like a gazelle. It looks like it was designed by a committee. This is how I see a solve formulated by a group.

      Best of luck though, if you and get a group together – JDA

      • P.S. I recently took in input from some of my search team, and this input MAY lead us to the place Indulgence is secreted – So, I am NOT completely against group input – IF it makes sense and is logical. Their input met this criteria – I then applied it to the poem and developed a location that meets the requirements of the poem – We shall see. MAYBE trip #18 will be the winner – maybe not – JDA

        • JDA, I have hoped that you would have a good process for input from your team members. It’s no different for any group of searchers that may form…if it meets certain criteria that the group has defined.

          And to answer your question in your first post if you are in a group of searchers, no, you don’t need to give up on certain beliefs you have. That’s the beauty of a group…the group can divide and conquer more than one thing at a time (again if we’re talking reasonable and logical).

  3. Excellent work and write up – thank you Doug. I’m on a similar path, different location. Creede has a small airstrip (paved) and a beat up old Subaru for a loaner car. A competent pilot could easily land there, borrow the car (key is in the unlocked pilot’s office) drive around a bit, and be home that night. Regarding the Rio Grande; I believe Doug is speaking of the headwaters/source/home of the river. It starts as a trickle of snow melt high in San Juan Mountains near Silverton CO. I think the Rio Grande is in the running until it reaches South Fork or Del Norte where it becomes a significantly bigger river. All IMO.

    • What difference would it make if the blaze isn’t white? What if it’s “off-white”,
      or very pale yellow? How about intense yellow, or orange, or red, or even
      gold-colored? I suggest you go back to the poem and the book (TTOTC), and
      don’t even expect much entertainment from these blogs . . . especially in
      view of FF’s “gut feeling” that the TC will be found pretty soon.

      By the way, have you used a dictionary to look up “halt”? If you have, you
      may be in the minority, just like the eventual finder of the TC.

      In my opinion, don’tcha know.

    • “Did you really say the blaze is a white streak, as has been rumored? Thank you, Deb”
      “Thanks Deb! No, I did not say that. There is a lot of bad information floating around the blogs and many posts that are not well thought out.”

    • Virginia;

      Here is the answer to your question.

      Question posted 6/24/2014:

      Did you really say the blaze is a white streak, as has been rumored? Thank you. ~Deb

      Thanks Deb,
      No, I did not say that. There is a lot of bad information floating around the blogs and many posts that are not well thought out. One person said (I’m paraphrasing) “He said the treasure is hidden in the trees. Then he contradicted himself and said it was in the sun. How could it be both.” Makes me wonder if that person has ever been in the forest.f

      Hope that this answers your question – NO, Forrest never said it was white – JDA

  4. Very compelling analysis, If I were 40 years younger I’d be throwing a bedroll and cooler in the trunk tomorrow morning, and notifying the PO to hold my mail for a week. Only one tiny thorn begs for relief …. you said Fenn referred to his hidey place as ‘special’…. but I recall he said the place “was dear to him”. That word “dear’ alway seemed very personal to me. Llke he had a very special encounter with another person there, perhaps a fishing trip with his father where they discussed Skips passing, or he disclosed troubling Vietnam memories, or some very private matter was resolved in love and peace. But your analysis does raise another strong possibility, one of ego and competitiveness; that someday a professional archeologist will be unearthing artifacts in that place, enormously proud of having discovered the site, imagining visions of his ground breaking discoveries and the professional acclaim to follow, when he discovers the chest and the autobiography, and that an amateur had beat him to the punch. He would be torn by indecision about what to do. Interesting, no? Hmmm. OS2

  5. Doug,

    I have just returned from a search of your WWWH 1 paper. I did not find the treasure but I did find the probable location of the William Henry Jackson Bristol Head photo. It is not in the location you described in your paper. I bring this up because the location in your Special Paper is probably on private land and requires a difficult walk on steep terrain leading to a bluff covered with no trees and no evidence of the foreground features in Jackson’s famous photograph. This could be a dangerous location for Searchers to attempt.

    I have a picture to prove I was in the correct location. There are numerous crevices and holes which could be hiding places for the tc. I searched carefully but did not find the chest. You or any other readers are free to contact me for more information.

    • McKendree;

      Sorry you did not find her. Sounds a bit dangerous to me – Please be safe when you search. Thanks for the post – JDA

    • JDA,
      Thanks for your concern. I always try to be safe when searching. That’s why I abandoned the first search area suggested by Doug Meyer. That’s also why I try to bring along my wife, who helps to hold me back from doing anything dangerous.


      • Smart idea – taking the wife along. Mine has kept me out of trouble more than once. Hope you two had a GREAT outing – JDA

    • Thanks McKendree – that’s a great ‘re-enactment’ shot!

      Cool place too, around and west of the Rio Grande headwaters. Brown and Hermit Lakes (“alone in there”) registered with me too. We ended up poking around further west of Creede, around Pole Creek and north to slide-dammed Lake San Cristobal and Slumgullion Slide.

      Hot enough already here on the Front Range this summer – I’m more than ready to light out for some alpine airs.


      • A possible connection between Hermit Lake and Fenn’s poem also occurred to me. I agree that the Rio Grande headwaters is some awesome country. It’s even hotter here in Tucson than the Front Range, and I’m wishing I were back in the cool Rocky Mountain high country. Seeing that Doug Meyer has now come out with his WWWH II paper, I could have stayed there longer, had I seen the blog posts in time.

  6. Thank you for your post and your successful search for the matching location to William Henry Jackson’s photography. I love the “Now and Then” shots and have had a local photographer help me find the right location. He also said the location I thought where the WHJ shot was taken was not the location. Me using google earth has its limitations, but me sharing information and others using shared information might help find the chest. Thanks for sharing the photo and location. Your help in locating the WHJ location will result in many future photographs of this beautiful area and was in my bucket of possible search areas.
    Only one person knows where the chest will be found. And like everyone else, we follow the clues, will it be found in Mineral or Hinsdale Counties, who knows. There are thousands of possibilities in the Rocky Mountains and it would be a shame to look and be so close, not exploring all of the possibilities in the area you are searching. Me doing an arm chair search putting different possibilities into my bucket has resulted in numerous possibilities.
    In my second paper I pulled archaeology out of my bucket. I also have scared trees; (if you are brave and into the woods) in this general location, I have numerous considerations to look for in my bucket. And my point, one should consider all of the possibilities when looking in your general area. Create a search plan when searching, it would be a shame to be so close and not look at all of the possibilities.

    In an article written by Taylor Clark in The California Sunday Magazine, the last sentence of the article, Mr. Clark quotes Forest; “Well, you don’t know where it is,” he said, grinning. “When somebody finds that treasure chest, everybody’s going to say, ‘My God! Why didn’t I think of that?” I would think everyone should have a “My God! Why didn’t I think of that possibility in there bucket.

    Again thanks for sharing, if you are heading back to this area and you would like a real adventure look at the Continental Ranch. (www.continentalranchatcreede.com/cabins.html) I would love to take my grandkids there just to see the expressions on their face when they discover no indoor plumbing.

    • Doug,

      Thanks for your reply. It is gratifying to hear from you regarding my search for the famous photo site. As I told my wife, if we find the matching location for WHJ’s iconic photograph, I would consider our trip to be a success even if we did not find the Fenn tc. Well, we found one treasure but not the other one. I’m still not convinced, however, that the tc is not concealed at the WHJ photo site. There are a lot of nooks and crannies to search, but some of the terrain is too treacherous to be a plausible hiding spot in my opinion.

      Regarding your second paper, unfortunately I was not aware of it until I returned from Colorado last week. Had I been aware of your archaeological site north of the Jackson photo location, I would have checked it out since it was only a short distance from the North Clear Creek Falls overlook which we visited shortly before returning home.

      Your armchair work is greatly appreciated and I hope to hear more from you in the future.

  7. Hi all , I don’t write often but I was thinking about the chase today and some thing came up .

    IMAGINATION – Mine began a few years ago . I told this imagination to a select few searchers whom know me well enough to tell. Those are Slurbs , Navajo Keith , Cynthia and Dal. Well I didn’t tell all just a little..

    So let me indulge your minds for a moment if I may .
    I have a question for all searchers . First let me quote Fenn ;
    ” Imagination is not a key , but the way to find the chest”.

    Okay f , I hear you . Imagination , lets look at the word shall we.
    imagination |iˌmajəˈnāSH(ə)n|
    the faculty or action of forming new ideas, or images or concepts of external objects not present to the senses: she’d never been blessed with a vivid imagination.
    • the ability of the mind to be creative or resourceful: technology gives workers the chance to use their imagination.
    • the part of the mind that imagines things: a girl who existed only in my imagination.
    Middle English: via Old French from Latin imaginatio(n-), from the verb imaginari ‘picture to oneself,’ from imago, imagin- ‘image.’

    ” The one who will find wont be able to keep it quite. ”
    ” I think a guy with 5 kids and a pick up could find it”
    ” I left a 20,000 word autobiography in the chest “, ” Maybe the fortunate one who finds it may want to know a little about the foolish man who left it”
    ” Technology will not help you find the chest, but your mind and body change as the clues do ”

    These are direct quotes from Forrest Fenn. So I listen . And I study what he says very slowly and carefully .

    So I pose this question . If Imagination is the way to find the chest , then what must you do in order to understand or find it. Simple you must imagine your self as. Well he said it not me . To imagine your self as.
    Well how, same way he did in the Catcher in the Rye . As he said ” all though the dates times names and places were different , other then that it was my very own story line. ” Who would imagine a coincidence like that could happen ” said Fenn .

    Who among us can imagine them self as? Who can imagine them self as he said ? Who can say that the dates times places weren’t that same but it is the same story line ?

    I have some answers to that but I don’t want to say it just yet.
    Lets look at some of the references I use.
    Number one dates. The Chase starts out on what day , 1-27 when JD passes away . #2 the date that starts the first chapter , Chapter is First Grade, and the date is Sept. 16th . Ok . well lets look at other dates, like
    when he spoke of it a coincidence that a class came in while hanging a portrait of George Washington Feb. 24th Presidents day . Thats why it was coincidence . Lets look at it from Catcher in the Rye , Allie dies of cancer on 7-18 , But Fenn’s brother also passed away . Similar as Fenn said it was .
    Lets add just a short story , ” Never underestimate the power of a quarter” . That is a quarter horse from Brownsville Texas and its Bronze is in Amarillo Texas. It also ties Indian Jones in the story , the last crusade has references there also . Where Brownsville Texas is where the term ” Never underestimate the power of a Quarter .

    And what of the story in the new book about the Leon Bridge and his friends , he listed five. The Leon is a big deal in his life , his Grandma grew up around it and he lived near it in Temple . But also so it is the name of the river his wifes very name Proctor comes from . And so I ask in Texas what lake dose the Leon dump into ? Proctor. And in the country where his wife’s name comes the river is (DeLeon) or in english Leon .And the Deleon dumps into Lake Proctor also in Europe.

    Hey don’t trust me look the stuff up it is there for you to see and understand.
    Fenns name is the most important clue there is .

    And the fact that he said ” Peggy was the first treasure I have ever found ”
    Well if that is true then Peggy possessed riches in order to be a treasure. Well it takes riches to make a treasure dose it not ?
    So ” I can keep my secret where and hint of riches new and old. ”

    Okay Secret , what does the word mean …. it means Fenn said if he didn’t know how to spell a word he wouldn’t use it. In other word he knew what the word meant is why he used them . So secret means to concile between tow things. SO take a quarter and put it in your hands , it is now a secret only you know . So what secret do you keep and hint of riches new and old.

    The point if Peggy is a treasure then what riches are you hiding , and keeping a secret . In other words what secret are you keeping in a ( RICHE ) the is new and old? And which of us can say that these things they can imagine them self as.

    ” Anyone who is over the age of 12 and cant see them self in this mirror then maybe they deserve another turn .”

    Who is it that Fenn is speaking of that will see them self in the mirror and not deserve another turn ?

    Just some thoughts to share. And open to all to comment on .

    Thanks Mike

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