Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Fifty Seven

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Thanks…

 

dal…

666 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Fifty Seven

  1. How many Odds n Ends is there now?
    Seems like a lot?
    I love to read but joined the Chase to late to go back and read everything.
    I love the Scrapbooks, yet there are a plethora of those too.

    • CC: it’ll take you a while, but I definitely recommend reading all of the nearly 200 Scrapbooks, whether you believe their might be hints in them or not. Some of them are very interesting/informative reading, and only a fraction of them made it into Once Upon a While.

  2. My thinking is there has to be a very specific point of reference in the poem in order to lead a searcher directly to the chest. Does anyone have any thoughts you would be willing to share?

    Also wondering, what do you think the last clue might be, the one that GE won’t help with? Is it something we need to learn/know/understand ahead of time, or is it a physical point of reference on the ground?

    Thanks for any thoughts 🙂

    • KK;

      My AH-HA moment of a couple of nights ago gave me new insight into the “But tarry scant with marvel gaze,…” line of the poem. If I am correct, this one line points the searcher in the right direction, to end up EXACTLY where Indulgence is secreted. Using this line, plus “Looking at the Big Picture” just might be the key that opens the magic lock – But what does this old guy know? Probably not a lot – 🙂 JDA

      • JDA,

        Thanks for your thoughts on that. I understand your a-ha reference…I will have to reflect some on that thought regarding the final spot. Thanks for sharing your thoughts! P.S. I think you know a lot, but I appreciate and respect your humility 🙂

        • Thanks – I can only hope that my AH-HA doesn’t turn into a HA-HA moment 🙂 – JDA

          • JDA, i don’t see how anyone could HA-Ha since the treasure is still out there. Best of luck with your search. The weather looking to be breaking up around there and turning nice while ya’ll search. Have fun!

            and yes, those AH-HA moments are cool.
            I’m still waiting for my AH-HA on the Tarry scants.

            Please update!
            Smoky 🙂

          • Hi Smokey;

            Well, I can hope for wonderful weather. Wyoming – as a whole looks pretty good. A couple of PM showers, but other than that – It looks good for the whole state. Getting EXCITED. Is it Thursday yet??? JDA

        • KK, No offense to JDA, but reflecting on f’s comments is much more rewarding. eg: “Nobody is going to happen on that treasure chest. You’re gonna have to figure out the clues in the poem and go to it.” (Moby Dickens video, Nov.2, 2013)

          • Thanks dejoka, I use everything given to us……many of his ATF, I understand within my own solve- not all, but a lot.

            I have a “good” solve, and a fairly small search area. However, as he said, “Your destination is small, but its location is huge.”

            Any better understanding or conflicting understanding (sometimes conflicting views help guide thoughts) before my next botg will be of help. I would go tomorrow to search if I could, but I next weekend may be the soonest I can go again.

      • JDA, I think you know much! I like your approach.
        Trying to think like a child, I think I’ve regressed back to a child.

        • Well, I know what I think I know, but at my age, that is not as much today as it was yesterday :-). Yes, I try to let “Little JDA” do most of the thinkin’ – He is much better at than am I.

          And Little JDA loves to run and play in the mountains, so I let him do it as often as I can – but I have to admit that I have a heck of a time keeping up with him. Thank goodness, he loves to run around in circles – which makes it much easier to keep up with him, as he runs circles around me 🙂 JDA

    • KK,

      I can only speak for my solution.

      My blaze can be seen from GE, but you can not identify it as something that draws attention in GE.

      On the contrary, it is so common that it mixes with the landscape. BOTG would be required to identify it.

      My luck is that you can find almost everything on the internet. And I got a picture of her, made by tourists.

      Yet I only identified her as a result of following the clues in order, or she would be just another piece of the landscape, for there is nothing special about in she.

      In fact all the clues in my solution are like this. Common scenarios for most people, except for those who “know” what to look for.

      FF said that the researcher does not need specialized knowledge, but I believe that this statement does not include doing research on special things.

      Mainly on WWWH + CD.

      IMO.

      • McB,

        Can I ask you what brings your conclusion that Mr Fenn has had to move his original spot of where he wanted to hide the chest, how do you know this and how far do you think the chest is from that spot?

        Thank you.

        • Butch,

          It’s just an “image” that I make of the big picture.

          This “image” advises me to be cautious in interpreting what FF says, and to read between the lines. Neither right nor wrong, just different.

          It’s my opinion only.

      • McB,

        Thank you for your thoughts. Not sure if you are referring to the blaze as we have discussed privately, or if you have revised your area and thinking.

        Either way, I appreciate your thoughts. I find many of your ideas either helpful for new ways for me to see consider and perceive (I think as you have mentioned, is the language difference), or confirmatory in my own line of thinking.

        • KK,

          I did but a small reflection on the rest of the poem.

          The path is the same, only the final destination that is most evident now.

          : )

        • KK, a whisper to you,

          Line 2, line 9 and stanza 5 speak of the “same place” where FF passed when he hid the chest. They have one thing in common.

          Trove does not refer to the treasure.

          IMO and solution.

          • Curious to know how treasures bold, no place for the meek, and stanza 5 fit together. I have wondered if the instructions in the poem stop at no place for the meek as he states it’s no place for the meek and then goes on to describe features up the creek but doesn’t state to follow with “it”.

          • McB,

            I’m with you on trove not referring to the treasure chest 🙂

            Not sure I grasp line 2 & line 9, but I will do some reflecting and go back over my notes to see if I can follow what you are understanding in those lines.

            Thanks for the whisper!

          • There seems to be a lot of sentences and line that don’t have movement involved. Example; “From there” [wherever ‘there’ is and refers to] doesn’t give movement. It only states; it’s no place for the meek. Seemingly an indicator not to go. The end is ever drawing [pulling] nigh [near] ~ If water is involved, the idea is the water is drawing in our direction.. [ no need to paddle up] ..from the end of where no place for the meek is at.
            This leaves the assumption, “just HL n WH should be right where we are. Or very nigh.

            If so, Then we can assume the blaze is close, and more than likely near HLnWH [ the question is ] is HLnWH the same as WWWH… seeing we should not have needed to move.
            OR is there a short distance away that we can see hoB?
            Or is hoB the location where all the clues are at or merging at. [ making all the lines connect. No not line you draw on a map, the actual lines in the poem ] merging, contiguous, touching with each other.

            A single point to see it all unfold before us, line of thinking….
            Try and simplify the clues?
            Marry the clues to “A place” on a map?
            Is the canyon too far to walk because the clues merge at this point of WWWH? Which implies the blaze is not far from wwwh?

            It would be easy for fenn to say who was near 500 feet and others within 200′ Because of what searcher told him, exactly where they were. And he knows the area like the back of his hand.

            Two thoughts come to mind; seeing he didn’t use maps to write the poem and it all came from his head… he either surveyed the location [searching it himself at one time] or spent a lot of time there over the years. Enough time to know every rock, tree, bush, and distances between things.

            Why am I hearing; it’s a small world after all ringing in my ears?

          • One step at a time my friend. One line at a time. Each line leads you to the next. Your question has one jumping around quite a lot – as I read your question.

            Treasures bold comes from Stanza #1 – Line #2.
            No place for the meek from stanza #3 – Line #1
            and then you jump to Stanza #5.
            What happened to Stanzas 2 and 4 ?

            You are trying to drive from San Diego to San Francisco but skipping LA and Monterey Bay – Linda important stops along the way don’t you think?

            Forrest says that the poem is a map. You can’t skip places on the map, and still complete the journey. JMO – JDA

          • JDA, I believe I have found 9 contiguous and consecutive clues in the map, yet I wonder if they’re all to be followed due to the lack of “it”. Simon didn’t say go to waters high, etc

          • JDA
            I stated “from there” in stanza 3, explained how it is read with no movement involved right up to HLnWH
            Which if there is no moment we should still be standing in stanza 1, which may imply HLnWH are near stanza 1 … even being part stanza 1 if no movement is involved. Leaving the blaze in stanza 4 close to HLnWH which I conclude could be the same as WWWH.

            Where are you heading to?

          • Seeker,

            “There seems to be a lot of sentences and line that don’t have movement involved. Example; “From there” [wherever ‘there’ is and refers to] doesn’t give movement. It only states; it’s no place for the meek.” Seemingly an indicator not to go”

            IMO, when you “Put in below the HOB” you should be putting in at “no place for the meek”. To me, the words “from there” do imply movement from HOB to a place that “is no place for the meek”. How far that distance is, or is traveled depends on the searcher’s solve, and what the understand the next line to be. What a searcher determines “meek” to be, will determine whether or not there is movement in the poem. If “no place for the meek” is a landscape feature that looks like a bear next to the HOB, then there probably isn’t much movement. If a searcher determines “no place for the meek” is a trail named after Joseph Meek, then perhaps there would be movement and TEIEDN would be interpreted differently.

            What a searcher should do is going to depend on whether or not they have the right solve. 🙂

            I think if you have a solve that is correct, it is going to be fairly clear what to do up until you reach the blaze. Then it gets a little tricky depending on what one determines to be the blaze For me the clues where a little easier, but the directional indicators became more difficult to follow.

    • kk: I’m happy to share (for the first time here) the methodology for the endgame of one of my earliest solutions. It would be a smart and unexpected way to provide the solution to a treasure hunt, and to my knowledge the system has not been employed in any previous, famous treasure hunt, armchair or otherwise.

      General idea: compose clues to lead a searcher to two quite separate but geographically precise waypoints, whether those are mountain peaks, or river intersections, or famous landmarks. They don’t have to be particularly close to one another, though less than say 50 miles apart leaves less uncertainty with various map coordinate systems.

      Here’s the twist: the treasure is at neither location; however, the latitude of one, combined with the longitude of the other, specifies the hiding location. That narrows it down to two possible geographic spots (one of which is likely to be far more reasonable than the other).

      At times, it sure seems like Forrest might have employed such a system — the poem quote in TTOTC pg. 101: “… your reward is neither here nor there” plus the more recent quote: “The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.”

      In that early solution I came up with, “But tarry scant” identified one location and “marvel gaze” the other. So you can see how “But tarry scan WITH marvel gaze” would be a sneaky clue for combining the two. The indicated location was very compelling on a map. Alas, in person it was a disappointing and unlikely location, mostly due to concerns about the chest remaining safely intact for decades or longer.

      • Zap,

        Thank you for sharing the end game of one of your solves! I must say, well done! I think FF has done something a bit similar to what you speak of (brilliant, btw). In my own solve, I see your idea in a different location in the poem and in a context that is just as “sneaky”, although there is no subterfuge because it is exacting when you understand. Unfortunately, understanding this creates its own difficulty within the poem, and this is part of what I believe FF is counting on.

        And this is partly why I am asking the questions I am asking, to try to understand my own solution more exactly. There is a very minuscule something I think I am missing in my solve and it gnawing at me.

        I have no doubts that even someone searching in a different location from me, may have that missing piece of understanding that will aid me in my solve.

        Thanks again for your thoughts!

        • kk: meant to thank you for your appreciation of my explanation of the system I used for my earliest end-to-end solution. At the time, I certainly felt the idea had some merit and would, if nothing else, score some points for originality. But Fenn’s thinking is on a different wavelength. More tuning of the crystal radio required…

      • Now that is a very interesting idea, Zap. While my solution predilections run on different rails, I tip my hat to the creative nature of your idea. I certainly agree with your two primary inputs conceptualization. In fact, what you describe here is the first completely workable way to describe full coordinates without using alphanumeric conversions.

        And if my fluid math solve fails later this summer. I will most certainly give this idea some detailed consideration. Thanks for sharing, Zap!

        Regards!

        • Zap –

          So in that scenario, Fenn said “ALL” and you had “TWO” lines that cross. To me, it would seem there should be more lines.

          In my earliest solutions I attempted to find 9 disparate waypoints and cross the lines. or, wait. I had 8 points, 4 lines. Some of those points were well out of the search area, even the initial search area.

          These were the most obvious answers for each Clue. Like the Trinity site for the Blaze.

          Lugnutz

        • Hi Lugnutz: Forrest’s comment about making all the lines cross in the right place came out after I came up with this endgame solution. Had it come out before, I would have been nagged by that word “all” since it certainly implies more than two lines crossing at a single point.

          The quote is a little different from Forrest’s other more public statements since it was in a private email to Aine Cain (the Business Insider writer). There was no guarantee that she would have used that quote in her story, in which case she would have been privy to “private information.” Still, I’m with you: it doesn’t seem like the “all” can be ignored.

          However, there is one counter-example. Forrest has used this phrase before in his 3rd interview with Lorene Mills — way back in 2013. Lorene said, “Well, not only is it, um, a gripping autobiography, a memoir as you say, but it does turn out the title comes from what you say has been your kind of guiding principle in your life: the thrill of the chase. And you had, you had a crisis — an illness crisis — and a conversation with Ralph Lauren. Tell me how these two things led to the important part of this book.”

          Forrest replies: “Well, it seems that all the lines crossed at the same time. In 1988 I was diagnosed with what everybody thought was terminal cancer. I lost a kidney. My doctors told me I had a 20% chance of living three years. And about that same time, Ralph Lauren, who had been an old client of mine, and friend for many years, was in my house and looking at some of the things that I had. And he said, “I want to buy that.” And I said, “Ralph, I don’t want to sell it.” He said, “Well, you can’t take it with you.” And I said, “Well, Ralph, if I can’t take it with me, I’m not going to go.””

          I count only two “lines crossing” here: the terminal cancer diagnosis, and his conversation with Ralph Lauren. Lorene even says “these two things.” Maybe it’s a Texas thing. Sort of like how “y’all” is singular, but “all y’all” is plural. 😉

          • Zap –

            Actually I would say all y’all is usually followed by a plural but is not the plural itself.

            As in All y’all city folk best bring you sun screen and a big hat.

            Lorene Mills is the interviewer I was trying to recall when I commented to JD earlier, so hope he sees this.

            I like the Loren Mills interviews because they are early. Then again, we see in the several articles about Fenn Galleries in the 80s that he was telling the same stories the same way.

            Lug

          • Dont forget the quote on the back of the map in TFTW. “I declined their invitation to put an X on the map, but will admit that it is there in spirit.”
            IT is there in spirit.
            Kind of indicates only 2 lines crossing. But what do I know.

      • Zap,
        The concept is clever, but can’t be applied to the chase.
        You would need two of everything to get to each spot. Two WWWH canyons… blazes etc… and… they both would have to be exactly the same references, and followed precisely, Yes?

        Why would fenn follow anything at all [when he went to hide the chest] if he had the ending coordinates of both places combined-?- which resulted in a third spot for the hide?
        ‘He’ wouldn’t even have needed the coordinates to do just that, knowing where he intended it to lay in wait.

        Nevertheless the Q&A about if you can find the blaze the distance to the chest would be obvious… how can coordinates be consider as blaze… something that stands out?

        Clever, sure… usable in this case?… Nope.
        “A great thought” if you were planning a treasure hunt… but a bad idea for this one.

        • Hi Seeker — I don’t think you’re being sufficiently imaginative in how such a system could work here. You don’t need two of everything. In my case, the first 8 clues led to one point on the map which I considered to be my blaze. My 9th clue was a relatively nearby (miles, but not tens of miles) named geographic point that could be construed as the “marvel gaze,” while “But tarry scant” had a tie-in with the name of my blaze.

          The combination of the two remarkably intersected a small island which was safely reachable without much difficulty. (No boat required, no raging river to ford.) Given Forrest’s “Gardiner’s Island” dream comment in TTOTC, you can perhaps see why this solution looked pretty attractive to me. Being on an island (with no bridge connected to it), it answered the question of why no one would just stumble upon it.

          • OK out of curiosity, because I do think we need to observe more. How can we explain folks getting that far… close to the chest… IF the blaze can be miles from the point we need to see, assuming we need to know ‘where’ the ‘blaze is’ to accomplish that, then have them wade to the island?

            I assume the island is about 500′ from the shore line? putting many searchers at it, yes? I’m not dismissing the thought of wading [ a wonderful lake call Sacandaga has a few of these islands that can be gotten to just that easy [ knee high water most of the time ] – mostly hills or high level land left behind after the area was flooded]. Although, others, and my pack of party goers enjoyed going there and even explored the place/island. It use to be a town and many of the buildings, stone walls, cars etc are still there. I wouldn’t think it would be a great place to hide a mil. in gold when searching for things was a way of life on the lake and there Islands.

            How large is this Island? And shouldn’t there be a marker of such to give up the chest’s location? or do the lines intersect so exact, it bring you to a 10″ spot? It would have to be one of those thoughts, or we could be scouring the entire Island for a long time.

            But marvel gaze doesn’t explain what is being needed to look at. Tarry Scant only relates to the name of the mountain… you use the peak as your point, right? Seems a bit obvious,maybe too obvious, and when to intersected the lines you found nothing?
            The reasonable question would be… what else stood-out -?- different? on that mountain that could change the coordinates just enough to put you in a different point on the Island.

            Was there anything that could have referred to; suggestions only; Tired and Weak, New and Old, Brave and Wood, a title of sorts??? maybe the name of the island? like “the money pit”.. for example only.

            I would like to go over your solve, so I can drink it up, chew it up, spit it in a cup and read the leafs. I’d use my magic eight-ball, only it keeps saying ~ “try again later”

          • Hi Seeker: “I assume the island is about 500′ from the shore line? putting many searchers at it, yes?”

            No, the island was not in a lake — it was only “protected” by creeks. To be honest, it was a little TOO easy to get to (though getting wet was unavoidable). Lots of people pass within 500 feet of it daily; getting within 200 feet is not something that many people do — at least by comparison with the 500 footers.

            “How large is this Island?”

            Very, very small. Thoroughly searchable in an hour or so. That’s what was so compelling about it: the unlikelihood that two formidable landmarks would each provide half of its coordinates. But in my opinion, it’s just coincidence.

            “And shouldn’t there be a marker of such to give up the chest’s location?”

            I was certainly hoping so. Even as small as the island was, my eyes were peeled for something tell-tale to mark the precise spot. But once there, I was not that enamored with the place. I had line of sight to a number of fishermen within a few hundred yards, and they could easily see me. There was also ample evidence of fishermen having been on the island. On the plus side, it was an excellent fishing spot — a spot Forrest might easily have used. But overall, it was not nearly as nice a spot as it looked on Google Earth. I was also concerned about clue longevity — the island’s elevation above the water that surrounded it was not that great — a couple feet perhaps? In a high water year, I could imagine the place submerged.

            “But marvel gaze doesn’t explain what is being needed to look at.”

            In this case, it wasn’t that type of clue — marvel gaze was a play on words for the actual name of the geographic feature. The hard (original?) part was thinking up the idea that those two unrelated places could work in concert to point the way to a precise 3rd location.

            “Tarry Scant only relates to the name of the mountain… you use the peak as your point, right?”

            I haven’t indicated the nature of my blaze; “But tarry scant” (all three words) subtly related back to the name of the feature that was my blaze.

            “Seems a bit obvious,maybe too obvious…”

            Believe me, it’s not obvious at all. You would never figure it out from “But tarry scant”; you would have to have been led to the spot by the preceding clues, and even then it’s subtle. In retrospect, I would say it’s TOO subtle. It’s another reason I abandoned the solution — it was too dependent on GPS, and we have Forrest’s remarks that technology is not going to help us find that treasure chest. In this case, one could argue that GPS would be crucial to success … IF this was the system Forrest used (which I seriously doubt).

            “Was there anything that could have referred to; suggestions only; Tired and Weak, New and Old, Brave and Wood, a title of sorts??? maybe the name of the island? like “the money pit”.. for example only.”

            Again — disturbing vacancies in that solution. I had nothing for tired and weak (other than the mundane idea that he’s referring to himself), and nothing for new and old (other than the obvious range of ages of the treasure chest contents). And the island is far too small to have a name. I question whether it will even exist in 1000 years. At least I had an answer to “your effort will be worth the cold,” and there are trees on this island, so technically you would be “in the wood”, and a small amount of bravery is required to get there (and a 3-year-old would certainly need help).

            That said, all my later solutions have been much better at addressing these failings — and yet so far, they also have been incorrect…

          • Zap,
            All I can say is… a red flag should have been waving when your solution fell in-between two avenues of ‘running water’ on a small island. Imo… that is paramount to think the chest is hanging in a tree. Running water can be a flood zone, even in a dry creek bed, and we know it doesn’t even need to be raining at the location… a torrential storm 50 miles away needs to go somewhere. Waters has no borders.

            To use fenn’s word… that’s target fixated 101.

          • Seeker: the island is not THAT small, it is anchored by dozens of adult trees, shows up on old maps, and has been there for at least 50 years, perhaps much, much longer. I have been there at the height of spring runoff in a historical high snowmelt year, and the island was in no way threatened. It would take a 100-year flood to possibly threaten it. So it is hardly equivalent to hanging the chest from a tree. Nevertheless, I dismissed the island once I had seen it in person, mostly because it appears the area (to include the island) is too frequently visited … and it *might* flood under very rare circumstances.

            I don’t think it’s fair to label this “target fixated 101” — I didn’t pick the island, the two waypoints did. And I didn’t write about a treasure island in TTOTC, Forrest did. And most relevantly, I went to that island once and then dismissed it. If anyone else had the same clue solutions, they would have done the same. You make it sound like I’m some sort of dolt for having made the journey which I find a bit offensive.

    • Yeah, I have a thought I’m willing to share. Use a dictionary to look up ALL the
      words of the poem. I think you may be surprised about the breadth of meanings.
      And I hope it’ll help you make progress in solving the poem. All IMO.

      • Tighterfocus,

        That is sound advice, I have looked up each word. I think the place I am at is having all or nearly all the correct components and struggling with how to put them together in conjunction with the physical location I have arrived at so that I have a specific solve rather than a general solve.

        • hmmm, don’t know about that McB….
          Have you ever thought about when he hid the chest? That will get you to looking up every word you can think of. Figuring out when he did the hiding is all about the ATF.

          It was 15 years from the time I got cancer until the time I hid the treasure chest. Figure this all out and I would believe that yes, you probably have used the dictionary more than most.:) (hint, two separate trips, not done on the same day).

  3. McB….
    7/7/2014
    “Is the chest hidden in the (exact) same spot…”
    “The spot is the same,…”

    • a particular place or point.
      “a nice secluded spot”
      synonyms: place, location, site, position, point, situation, scene, setting, locale, locality, area, neighborhood, region; venue; technicallocus
      “a secluded spot”

      Spot is not always as specific as the word infers or its interpretation

      For example a spot defined as a mark on clothing is only used to describe its size in relation to other spots. Small spot large spot Ect

      A spot in Alaska could be a very large area. Or one in the Rocky Mountains as is the case is concerning a treasure chest. All depends on how you look at it.

      Not knowing how the person is using the word it’s hard to tell the size of the spot they are talking about.

      I can say that Houston is the spot I want to let my bones rest forever it’s also the exact same spot I hid a treasure chest and this would be exactly true. However they two items do not need to be within site of each other.

      I think he answered the question as it was asked.
      Just my big picture view.

  4. I am in the fatigues of the chase. I don’t feel like researching any more. I follow along on the blogs but I don’t have the same interest that I once had. Maybe it’s because I feel I have a solid solution, at least in my mind. Does anyone else get like that?

    TimM

    • I think everybody feels mentally burned out occasionally. When are you taking your trip TimM?

    • Morecowbell,

      I was planning it for the end of the month but due to circumstances at work it will most likely happen near the end of July.

      TimM

    • Hi Tim;

      Sorry you are feeling a little disheartened about the Chase. I think that we all have gone through that. Yes, one of the hardest times is when you have a “GOOD” solve, and can not go out and test it.

      I hope that if it is not found soon, that you get the chance to see if your solve is as good as you think that it is.

      Take heart, we have all been there – JDA

      • Thanks JDA,

        I’ll be out to test my solution soon… I think one problem for me is that I tend to keep thinking about it instead of accepting it the way it is. I don’t want to over-cook it.

        Its like someone trying to paint a picture and you think to yourself, “one more stroke over here… ugh that doesn’t look right. How about another little dab of paint here…”

        Pretty soon all you’ve accomplished was covering a pretty good painting with too much paint and ruining it.

        I hope that makes sense..

        TimM

    • Personally, alternative theories don’t bother me when I’ve got my solve in hand (which I have for awhile), but some of the off the wall/way out in left field stuff (IMO) makes me wish the chest would be found more quickly so I don’t have to read it (and get irrationally annoyed by it).

  5. JDA, continuing,

    The term “place” and “where” for me is “very” comprehensive.

    So, in my solution, I do not consider these FF statements about the “place” or “where” to have their bones as defining the “exact point” of the chest hiding place.

    To tell you the truth, no ATF, words the Forrest, or tips, influenced my solution. No confirmation bias. Only the words of the poem and their meanings.

    I have used only official place names and their physical or geographical characteristics.

    However my solution is in line with everything that FF has said to this day.

    Despite that in my solution, a common person (not searcher) can move within 50 feet of the chest and not see him, nor see the blaze. Nor to feel smell corpse on site, if there were any, of course.

    And remember what FF said that he had to change plans.

    All IMHO

  6. After almost two years of studying, and a full notebook of notes, I finally went on my first BOTG adventure. I’ve listened very carefully to Forrest, and seriously applied many of the thoughts searchers have shared on the Blog.

    I thought perhaps the chest was near the bank of a river, but which one? I had studied long and hard about where warm waters halt, and had concentrated on “Heavy Loads and waters high”.

    Was the poem in itself a map, or was the map to be found by listening carefully to the “tone” of the poem? Did acrostics or anagrams play a part in the location of the treasure?

    All of these things had intrigued me to no end. After my flight to the area I pulled out my notebook and began the arduous task of recalling the many details I had stored away both in writings and reminders.

    I searched for three days, carefully and slowly, checking under rocks and logs, and meticulously checking each crevice or small cave also. At one point I began to shout loudly as a glint of bronze could be seen in a small cavernous area. But alas, it was a false alarm, and my elation was replaced with sadness.

    At the end of the three days I was forced to admit my calculations were wrong. I decided I needed to pay more attention to what others were saying. As I began the drive back to the airport I began to clearly understand that what I was searching for so desperately was not in Portland Oregon after all. I will now begin saving money for another trip next year. But it won’t be to Oregon.

    • Sparrow,

      I liked the Oregon reference. With what you said in your post, ” searched for three days, carefully and slowly, checking under rocks and logs, and meticulously checking each crevice or small cave also.” It seems as though you did not find or know the blaze.

      Sorry you weren’t successful or was your search not real just by mentioning Oregon? I had to laugh at the 2nd to the last sentence of your post.

    • I hear a lot of searchers are looking in the northernmost state, so you might want to check out Washington.

    • LOL Sparrow,
      We can add Oregon to the list of states its not in. Maybe Kansas? I don’t recall fenn every say ‘specifically’ that state. They get tourist too, right? Its more than 300 miles west of Toledo so it must still be in play, right? I’ll meet ya there… Cawffees on me.

  7. Happy Father’s day to all of the Dads, Granddads, and Great Granddads out there. Enjoy your special day.

  8. Bowmarc on June 16, 2018 at 9:59 am said:

    Bubbles are a kind of hole in liquid…

    Thanx for the retort Bowmarc!

    Bubbles are also in foam rubber and some kinds of pumice, which make floating rocks. Fun to see.

    • LOL…Just thinking outside the box (but inside the liquid) and using my imagination a bit.

      • Bowmarc,
        That is certainly a creative thought. I hadn’t thought of bubbles. But,. . interesting.

  9. Eric: catching up on yesterday’s posts (which are now retired).

    “I highly doubt he would go to die in a highly travelled tourist area as he would be discovered too easily. A 10 inch chest is one thing, a full grown man is another. In TToTC he also seems to show disdain that his favorite childhood fishing destinations are now overrun by tourists. I suspect he has a favorite fishing hole away from it all, like the one pictured in the book.”

    I strongly suspect the secret fishing hole pictured in the book is a hatchery photo, not a real fishing spot.

    • Several of the creeks and rivers have been renamed throughout the years. My research has proven that. Also the indications he used for distance is off a bit as well.

  10. Seeker you stated “Or is hoB the location where all the clues are at or merging at. [ making all the lines connect. No not line you draw on a map, the actual lines in the poem ] merging, contiguous, touching with each other.”

    In a solution I have been working on this is the case. The problem I have encountered is solving from there. I am starting to believe there is a different method following PIBHOB. A big picture solve up until PIBHOB and then something else after that needs to be tapped into.

    • aaron,
      nice. this is the most sensible mention ive seen in a long time. i think youre onto something.

      • Thanks BadgeR, I think I could be too. I believe it is entirely possible that the poem could be both metaphorical and literal up until PIBHOB but only literal after. This could explain why the clues supposedly get easier. We shall see.

    • Aaron,

      I’ve been saying for a long time. All in one.

      Do not disregard “any” stanza of the poem.

      The second stanza gives you an “exact general location” = “in below the HoB”.

      If you understand WWWH + CD + TFTW, stanza 1 will open, clear as day.

      This understanding serves to “whole” the RMs. Even for the little girl from India. She would be “close” to the first two clues. ; )

      Only from the third stanza onwards do the clues start to get more punctual.

      Then you will begin to see the relationship between the various lines and words of the poem.

      Is all in one place.

      IMO of course.

  11. Zap, you said “This is a hint-rich chapter, in my opinion.” One issue I have is that, as you pointed out, the story is the same as his 2008 article prior to hiding the treasure. The only difference is he took out names. I’m guessing this is probably for legal reasons. If the story is the same and he didn’t even finish the poem until after hiding the chest then it is hard for me to believe that he added hints to this story in 2008. This could in fact be a great example of FF just writing a story and not providing hints. If this is the case, perhaps many of his stories do not provide as many hints as we are reaching for. Love to hear any opinions otherwise however.

    • Hi Aaron: here I was referring to the chapter in TFTW as being hint-rich. That one has NOT appeared elsewhere, as far as I know.

    • Aaron: your point is well taken, though. One has to consider how far forward in time was Forrest putting his hints and clues together, and who was the audience for the early incarnations? This is why the longest chapter in TTOTC is the last place I would look for hints in the text of the story since it appears almost word-for-word the same as the one intended for a military audience long before the book came out.

      HOWEVER — he did change some things. As a result, the “My War for Me” chapter does have at least one hint in the text, in my opinion. And of course, anyone who believes there are hints in the photographs or illustrations probably considers this to be a very important chapter.

      • Zap, Aaron…There is always the possibility that the stories are just stories about Fenn’s life experiences. If there happens to be a subtle connection… by word usage…or simply another connection that somehow relates to the who, what, when, where, why, how in relation to the poem….he could then claim there are hints in regards to the poem. I think that it may be important to remember that he has always claimed that the hints are (unintentional). To me… this simply means exactly what he says…and not what we want/need the hints to be. He also has said “IF you can recognize them” in regards to the hints. Recognize…seems to imply that one needs to have made some progress in deciphering the clues before being able to find them…not the other way around. Just food for the brain to consider…..
        I’ll reiterate that I believe the poem was in completed form BEFORE he did the deed and not complete/completed after the fact….makes zero sense to me…unless one needs that to fit one’s ideas.

        • Ken,
          ‘The hint factor’ can make or break one’s thought process.
          ~Some look for hints while reading the book to help with the clue’s answers [because hints will help with the clues]… yet, as you explained, fenn stated if you can recognize them. [ so everything can possibly be a hint ]
          ~Others like the idea, decipher the clues [ or as much as possible ] and look for hints as confirmation, because you might recognize them. [so hints don’t really help with answering anything…so, where do we go to find information to decipher clues? ]
          ~I like the idea, that subtle information helps with “the location” of all the clues. Mainly because of fenn’s warning; certainty of the location beforehand… making the path direct.
          This idea eliminates a lot of guess work, if correct. If the location is known… the deciphered clues should fall in line.

          But has you can probably see… each method of process can create bias ideas. The problem with my personal approach is, some clues have been mentioned, and have folks on site and walking by everything.

          You have said; solve the riddle… well what does that mean exactly? Is the riddle the whole solve? [ that seems obvious and redundant, right? ] might as well call it a puzzle or a challenge. The word means nothing if it doesn’t have legs to stand on.

          Or a part of the poem needing to be solved prior to even attempting the clues? Which might imply that in doing so… stanzas 2 3 4 might need to be thought about, only after 1 5 6 [ or part of any one of those stanzas ] to the kick off to the game.

          The comment; “all the information to find the chest is in the poem” might not be exactly as we/some think. All that really says if follow the clues. [ follow can mean a couple of things as well ] So what is the most important part of a process?
          The first clue? ~ so far that has been a guessing game and a few had a good guess, but didn’t know.
          Solve all the clues? In theory [as fenn said] but not in practice. Add to that the fact, he followed the clues he created, implies a home solve is not complete. A solve must be done in the field [even by the guy who created the clues] ~ field work, not just stomping.

          So to my point; it doesn’t matter how we see a hint or how it help with clue’s references… it seems more important to ‘know what to do’ with it all, once we get to the point of “completing” it all.

          The question is… no matter how you look at the “riddle”… Does that Riddle answer; what to do? Or does it simple get you to the location to do what is needed?

          LOL so the Riddle just became the same as the way we look at hints. What does it actually do-?- and when do we figure it out… I mean, if it is as simple as, ‘the poem is a riddle’… well, that’s not late breaking news, is it.
          To be honest… a riddle is a question… and there only seems to be one in the poem. But, you’ll never get too many to jump on that band wagon of thought. Most think it WWWH or bust. For me… wwwh is the start of the clues to be followed… we still need to get somewhere and understand why there.

          That would be a useful riddle ‘within’ the poem if it was meant with that idea in mind.

          • Searchers, companions at the crow’s feast …

            IMHO, without facts,

            Knowing “how” FF thinks of words helps to understand the poem.

            I think reading your books would help in that sense.

            Tips for clues is very superficial. I do not think this is the case.

            I keep thinking that the unlikely, would be the most likely.

            For example:

            I found the name of a place in the first stanza.

            I found HoB’s name in the second stanza.

            I found the name of a river in the third stanza.

            I found the exact location of the chest in the fourth stanza.

            I found the blaze site in the fifth stanza.

            And the sixth stanza told me “how” to get to the chest.

            When would anyone imagine that? A perfect map!

            Am I right? Only time will tell. The crows are already very fat … and the water is already boiling.

          • Seeker…the answer to the riddle is the map that evolves from deciphering the clues in consecutive order. Fenn has always said to follow the clues. The answer/map is the guide that will be unmistakable once made.
            Remember how long it took the man to backtrack and say to solve the riddle, the nine clues. A number of years after his “head pressures…yada, yada…”.
            The answered riddle shows the searcher what to do.

          • Seeker said…To be honest… a riddle is a question… and there only seems to be one in the poem.

            To be fair, riddles can be a question with a quick witty answer. They can also be just a sentence that makes you have a sudden realization.

          • Seeker…I had a much longer reply. It deleted itself so I wrote the short one above.
            To add…..Some riddles do have a question that needs to be answered. In earlier times writers often wrote stories with hidden messages/riddles intended for likeminded or folks who knew to look for such. Often times these messages or hidden ideas or statements may have been political or heretical concepts that may be forbidden or had consequences. Some of these are just now being discovered and understood. A story within a story…so to speak.

          • Fund, Ken,
            Yep… there is a question, and a short witty sentences. The rules didn’t change [ in regards to stanza 5 ] It as both elements.
            Ken ~’… statements may have been political or heretical concepts that may be forbidden or had consequences.’
            I think we can rule that type of ‘idea’ out… there is a Q&A regarding just that thought.

            I’m not saying the poem can’t be one large riddle… But if stanza 5 can’t be usable as a clue [ because it “seems” the chest should be discovered by the time stanza 4 is done]. Why place a question in the poem if it is not a riddle-?- that needs understanding?

            I don’t buy into stanzas being fillers or an intro or closing comment. That’s 1/2 the poem… and every word was deliberate and should not be discounted. LOL and now we have fenn saying “the riddle in the poem” comment.

            I’m being to think the “challenge” is set up in stages of accomplishment. a ‘simple’ example;
            ~Solve the location. [ the riddle? not a clue]
            ~Decipher the clue’s “references”.
            ~Plan to execute the clues, by Observing what is need to be seen. [even possibly, when to see it].
            ~Complete the solve/task by doing what the poem explains… and in my mind, fenn had to do the same by following his own created clues.

            That Idea, process, could be a riddle itself… Yet… WhatIF the question or any other parts of the poem give up the needed location? Or even, that Important Possibility to winning the prize fenn is surprised nobody as mentioned.

          • I’ll be more direct.

            The poem tells you exactly where the chest is and what you should do to get it.

            The lines of the poem converge and relate to one another.

            FF wrote the poem thinking about his father.

            So he said that he imagined his father with him in the hiding place. (I do not remember where he said it)

            It is a description of a place. It is the “same” as this poem:

            https://dalneitzel.com/2013/02/23/scrapbook-seventeen/

          • my monologue about early riddles was not to imply there was a sort of heretical or off limits story in Fenn’s poem. It was merely to give an example of a riddle that was not question based in nature. Merely a hidden agenda of sorts is a better explanation.
            The point is to make the poem into a map that matches the correct search area deciphered from the clues. When complete…the map will leave no question that it is correct just by the very nature of it’s design…
            My adjusted outlook and understanding of this leaves none of the ATF to be discounted in any fashion…

            have a good day folks !!!

          • Ken,

            Speaking of monologue, the poem is not a monologue, it is a dialogue between two characters.

            Only IMO.

          • Maybe “puzzle” would be better than the word “riddle”.

            Clearly Clueless

          • Eric D,

            One of them may be the right one.

            Line 9 says what kind of thing is welcome to the location, but for a reason that it’s on line 2. This gives a kind of name / adjective to the location.

            IMO

        • Hi ken:

          “Zap, Aaron…There is always the possibility that the stories are just stories about Fenn’s life experiences.”

          Possible, but in my opinion unlikely. I think some of the stories are just vehicles/excuses for delivering subtle information. And it sure seems to me that a few of the stories are “tall tales.” (Forrest certainly did NOT create a ball of string so large that it couldn’t fit through his bedroom door — that’s quite a “yarn”.)

          “I think that it may be important to remember that he has always claimed that the hints are (unintentional).”

          As you know, that’s not quite how he phrased it. “The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker.” So, a couple loopholes: could “not deliberately placed” be construed to mean “haphazardly placed,” as in not in any particular order? And what does Forrest mean by “seeker”? Seeker of the treasure or seeker of the answers to the poem’s clues? Suppose the hints can only help searchers who have solved the clue(s) to which they refer? If so, then it would be fair to say the book hints are not of any real assistance to anyone who is still stuck trying to figure out WWWH. I’m not saying either of these loopholes is necessarily in play — just that it’s possible.

          Since you mentioned Forrest’s “If you can recognize them” response to the April 2013 question (“Are there subtle hints in the TTOTC book?”), this would lend some support to the second loophole: how would you recognize a hint if you didn’t know the clue to which it referred? As you wrote: it implies you need to have made some progress deciphering the clues before you’d recognize the corresponding hint(s).

          • Zap…what you say “could” be the case for sure. However…the main word in the definition of deliberate…you guessed it…”””intentional”””. Just for the sake of argument…folks are going to see and say what they believe Fenn’s comments mean…each unto their own ideas or method of trying to decipher. And I’ll add that I believe in most cases there will definitely be a tendency to err on the side of own biases.
            In my case…there is no bias at all because there is a method to this beast/riddle that precludes any chance that will occur…unless the first clue is exact in it’s nature.
            You are a smart fellow Zap…and I’m sure you’ve rechecked your understanding of the word “subtle”…in any case…we can agree to not see the same things.

    • It seems to me that the place that ff stashed the goods is important to him and was meaningful enough to be the place of his bodies eternal rest. One could reason that such an important place would also have played a role (consciously or subconsciously) in his actions during his life. The next step would be to reason that the stories of his life would likely relate back to the important place.

      So, whether he deliberately wrote stories relating to clues or hints to solve his poem or if he wrote stories about his life that have some relation to this ultra-important place is not worth much discussion. Writing about one would be writing about the other.

      Could you discuss air quality without discussing molecules of oxygen? You wouldn’t neccesairily be talking about molecules, but you couldn’t talk about air without inadvertently (or purposefully) mentioning the molecules.

      • I have no idea what a special place would be for FF.

        But I have thoughts about the type of place so that a treasure, when found, would generate many surprises.

        First, it would not be in the middle of a ravine, in the middle of nowhere.

        Second, it should have some symbolism, some importance to people.

        Third, the place would not be easily accessible to someone.

        Fourth, there should be some connection to the story.

        And fifth, anyone who finds the chest would have doubts about making their discovery of the place public, or not.

        FF is a naughty boy.

        Just thoughts, no fact …

  12. Seeker,

    You said, “As the AFT you posted, Dave, shows… People is intended as; searchers. fenn has used other terms related to people as searchers in other ATF. But some bloggers want those words/terms, such as; Some, Others, People etc to mean tourist because it would fit there ‘general solve’…”

    I don’t know if anyone else realizes it, but FF uses the term “people” and “soldiers” sometimes to represent trees. Its like that quote FF made about JD’s book, Catcher in the Rye. Something about how the people were different and the places were different, but it was the same story. I have noticed that FF often shares stories that are really talking about something else.

    IMO, FF uses cars to represent mountains and rocks and several terms including “people” to represent trees. Lots of different words represent canyons, basins, and other geographical features.

    All IMO

    • This makes me think of how, for Native Americans, “people” includes people, rocks, animals, mountains, and so on.

  13. Just tossing out an idea!

    I’ve mentioned before that I think that geological features that are part of the geography of the RMs are important to the solve of the poem. I came to this conclusion by studying the poem and the geography of the RMs, because FF has said that a “comprehensive” study of geography “might” help.

    I have narrowed down a location that I believe is the right area the poem leads to. I actually arrived at a very specifc spot that I think is important to the solve.

    This very specific spot just happens to be a section of CHUGWATER formation.

    Wikepedia says this about the Chugwater Formation- “The Chugwater Formation is a mapped bedrock unit consisting primarily of red sandstone, in the states of Wyoming, Montana, and Colorado in the United States. It is recognized as a geologic formation in Colorado and Montana, but as a Group (set of formations) in Wyoming.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chugwater_Formation)

    “Due to its lack of fossils and its presence below the highly studied Morrison Formation, the Chugwater receives little attention.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chugwater_Formation)

    “The most noticeable feature on a large scale is the brick-red color, caused by oxidation of iron minerals in the rock. This color is periodically interrupted by streaks and spots of reduced iron, a light bluish-gray shade. Near the top of the formation is a thick layer of gypsum of very high quality. The whole rock is interrupted by gypsum veins as well as having a disrupted texture because of the precipitation of gypsum crystals after deposition of the rock.” (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Chugwater_Formation)

    Wikepedia’s description of the Chuwater Formation matches the description in other sources as well. “Chugwater receives little attention” Does this make you kind of think of FF talking about his low self esteem?

    Anyway, I decided a little while ago that it seems very clear that when FF is talking about cars in his various stories, these cars represent mountains and rocks. If you don’t believe me, I can offer some quotes from his stories. But, I’m on vacation now and not home with my copy of TTOTC. So I can’t provde the quotes just now.

    So I couldn’t figure out why FF uses cars to represent mountains and rocky formations until I realized that the mountains and rock formations are on a journey through time in the RMs. But then I noticed something that really grabbed my attention!

    Because I’m looking at a piece of the “Chugwater Formation” as part of my solve, I wondered what the word “chug” actually means and why it is named that. To my surprise, the word CHUG could actually mean WWWH. I had never thought of that before. And, not only that, but it is connected to the concept of cars representing the RMs.

    Here is the definition of CHUG from google.

    verb
    (of a vehicle or boat) move slowly with engine making regular muffled explosive sounds.
    “a cabin cruiser was chugging down the river” emit a series of regular muffled explosive sounds, as of an engine running slowly.

    verb: chug; 3rd person present: chugs; past tense: chugged; past participle: chugged; gerund or present participle: chugging “he could hear the pipes chugging”

    noun
    noun: chug; plural noun: chugs

    a muffled explosive sound or a series of such sounds.
    “the chug of a motorboat”

    So, according to google, CHUG can mean the slow moving (think 35 miles per hour drive from Texas to Yellowstone).

    It also can mean brief stops and starts. (think “halt”)

    Doesn’t the description of “chug” from google remind you of the story of the car with no top that FF tells in TTOTC? It sounds like it to me.

    According to Wikepedia, “The most noticeable feature on a large scale is the brick-red color, caused by oxidation of iron minerals in the rock”. Does that sound to anyone else like the old “iron fire escape” that FF used to slide down to skip school? According to the story, everyone “knew where I had been”. Yes, I know you all think that he is talking about everyone knowing where FF himself had been when they saw the “brown” stain on the back of his britches. But, I think it is telling us that “everyone knew where ‘I’ had been” with “I meaning water. Most of you probably know that since my first reading of the poem and TTOTC, I have believed that “I” in the poem is water.

    When Wikepedia talks about “oxidation of iron minerals in the rock”, it is talking about the rock being acted upon by a process involving water. So when you look at this formation, you can see where I=water has been.

    I find it interesting that I arrived at the Chugwater formation by following what I think are the clues in the poem and then I discover that the definition of CHUGWATER could actually mean WWWH as the “I”=water has altered the rock through time creating this formation in the geography of the RMs. The name its self can actually mean WWWH if you can visualize that a chug is like a temporary start and stop, or in other words, a HALT.

    Just thought I’d toss this idea out there for discussion. I don’t think I’m giving away too much because the Chugwater formation covers a lot of land so it doesn’t give away the specifics of my solve.

    • Oh Yeah!

      Thermopolis in general is a great area to search.

      Almost everything is on land you probably wouldn’t want to trespass though.

      Anyway looking at all of the Chugwater you will read that there are no fossils. BUT, arrow heads are everywhere.

      Also the Fenns probably drove through Chugwater, WY every trip to Yellowstaone.

  14. Seeker on June 17, 2018 at 8:25 pm said:

    “It would be easy for fenn to say who was near 500 feet and others within 200′ Because of what searcher told him, exactly where they were. And he knows the area like the back of his hand.

    Two thoughts come to mind; seeing he didn’t use maps to write the poem and it all came from his head… he either surveyed the location [searching it himself at one time] or spent a lot of time there over the years. Enough time to know every rock, tree, bush, and distances between things.

    Why am I hearing; it’s a small world after all ringing in my ears?”

    Seeker, and others,

    I wonder how much time he spent at this place. Here’s why. The more time he spends/spent there, the more likely he’ll have been spotted going to and from it. And before the chase ensued, he might have let slip some mention of this place. It is my opinion that this resting place he discovered is where he found something significant – treasures new and old. It, or they, were old, but new to him. And will be new to the searcher that figures out the poem.

    I would be very surprised if it was a fishing hole, or close enough to running water so as to be “next to” some. This is a bit of bias on my part, so I could be wrong about it. But all the while in the back of my head spins the phrase, “what would I do in a similar circumstance?”

    Finally, FWIW, the more I work the puzzle, the further I get from a solution – or so it seems. I sure hope some of you are faring better than I.

    Good luck to all!

    • Swwot,

      I have the impression that everything revolves around this: Fishing or Archeology. Things that FF understand.

    • Very nice Amber, just one question, why would the TexasBullionDepository.gov have a picture of fake gold nuggets on there homepage?

  15. Ok everyone, before I make my point let me just say that I am ready to be shot down in flames and am big boy so I can take it on the chin so feel free to load up and take aim……..also my grammar will not be perfect so let it slide please.

    So I have been on this site for a few months now and its a very well run site but Dal full of ‘Good Information’ supplied either by Dal or Mr Fenn, but have to say that there is soooooo much noise on this site by members that its no wonder that the chest is still out there!

    Do I have the chest..’No’…..do I have a correct solve?……’Absolutely’!………well why dont you get your stupid ass out there Butch and go get it?…….well if only it was that easy…..you see as some of you may know I live in the UK and have only recently made a full recovery from major spine surgery, im fit and active again so I will be coming the America within the next couple of months to hopefully claim the gold, I have to raise the money and get a few resources when I arrive to complete my solve.

    Well whats the point of this blog, well my point is that IMO many (No names) are completely dismissing Mr Fenns advice by NOT keeping it simple and MESSING with his poem.

    I worked hard on my solve for nearly a year while I was laid up with my injury and I like all of us have done the head scratching, teeth gritting, hair pulling, late night coffee marathons, but one thing I NEVER did was mess with Mr Fenns poem, and that is exactly what I see lots of you guys doing, as I have said no I dont have the treasure, but I will stick my big fat neck right out and say that the only reason I will not claim the treasure is if someone gets there before me……..and I can hear you all now screaming at the ‘Newbie’…….’Eat Crow’……’One Crow special for the newbie’……..’Are we low on Crow’s, we have another newbie gonna need a big fat crow pie’…….and thats fine by me because my solve is solid and I have invited quite a few close friends to pull it apart and prove me wrong and none of them have been able to!

    This I not a moan at all in fact or though we dont know each other we all seem to get along well and I enjoy this site for all it brings, but my point is if it is me or someone else who is lucky to find the treasure some of you guys are gonna look at that big pile of paperwork, spreadsheets, data, books and lastly the amount of man hours you have spent on this chase over the years and you will be shocked into silence for a fortnight over exactly how simple the solve was!!…….trust me im not lying, in some of your defence I was extremely lucky being from the UK and NOT having any local knowledge and as much as I adore him now and his wizardry with words I had never heard of Mr Fenn up until a year ago, this was to my advantage, I got my solve from the poem and GE and then once all the clues fitted I then reinforced my solve by finding out about Mr Fenn mainly from reading long pieces on Tarry Scant website.

    So my advice is wether you choose to take it or not is to keep it “Simple’ guys and if you know why Mr Fenn offered the backward bicycle video on YOUTube as a clue then your halfway there, Good luck with your searches everyone and I look forward to being shot down and burnt.

    Butch

    • Butch;

      What did you say that would want others to shoot you down? You said you have a SIMPLE solve, one that you figured out in about one year, and one which you can not prove because you are in the UK and can not yet get over here to prove.

      We ALL think we have the perfect solve, until it is proven wrong. NO ONE that I know of says, “Gee, I have a horrible solve, but I think I will go out and spend a bunch of bucks and time to prove just how bad it is.”

      You were not overly boastful (thanks). You did not call us all idiots (thanks). You did say you believe you have a good solve, but that it is untested – fine. K.I.S.S is a great philosophy – and that is what I have tried to do in this post – Have a GREAT day – JDA

    • Mr. Butch,
      Thanks for posting and I so agree with your statement….stick to the poem.
      You mentioned something else here though that makes me shake my head…. another common trap so many people here have fallen into….JMO.
      Take care and I hope your recovery is swift.

      Clearly Clueless

    • Well Butch,
      Glad you’re back on your feet and ready to roll… And I get the excitement, that buck fever thing.
      But why make excuses? If it’s not there because I know I’m right… then someone beat me to it.
      It’s a feel good excuse for you, but boring has heck for all of us who keep hearing it every single year. or others say they know fenn is so brilliant because they know how to solve the poem. Only to come back and complain WWWH was easy, but the other clues are much harder and we couldn’t figure them out
      fenn said Its difficult but not in possible, call the poem complex, and stated “try” and simplify the clues… not that the clues are simple. IF it was easy anyone could do it.

      Just once, could someone be honest enough and say, fenn kicked my ass… when they come back, dragging their egotesticles.
      There are more excuses from failures that some claim is not their fault, than there are clues.
      Seeing there’s 3 books, 180 plus SB’s, hundreds of Q&A and interviews, 8 years of ATF’s and still the excuses are winning by a mile.

      • Hi Seeker,

        If im wrong I will admit Mr Fenn kicked my ass no problems there, and if im right……..well, it was. nice knowing you all and I look forward to seeing you all at the book signing 🙂

          • Of course, although I will probably be doing a book signing in a town near you Seeker, you can have a signed copy foc, they are the perfect size so put under a wobbly table. 🙂

    • Hi Butch,

      I just got back home from the UK myself a few days ago. I hope you enjoy the fresh air in the mountains. Allow a day or two in the mountains before doing anything strenuous– the air is very thin.

      Good luck proving your general solve.

      • Hi Muset,

        Thank you for the advice, I have been to the to rockies before so know about acclimatising, I hope you enjoyed London, I bet you didn’t enjoy our NOT so fresh air? 🙂

  16. Butch, all i can say is WOW…i do hope your health is good.. and sounds like your working hard to whip back in shape…you have a strong will..

    • Thank you, they put titanium rods in my back and I get stopped every time I go through security at airports now 🙂 ………I have no excuses at all, im almost fully fit again and will hope to get state side this search season, thank you again for your kind words Maoli they are appreciated.

  17. Haven’t seen Dodo Bird on here lately. Have you searched yet DB, if you are here?

  18. Anyone up for the role of devil’s advocate? Appreciate your thoughts. I know there has been some reference to the Cross of Lorraine regarding the chapter “Tea With Olga”.

    As I have mentioned before, I think there has to be some point of reference in the poem that gives us a point of reference on the ground (an x) so to speak.

    What are your thoughts on it being a telephone/utility pole? Not buried or hidden in close proximity, but something in line with the treasure (be it 200 or 500 ft away).

    “The ANSWERs I already know” (you answer a phone)
    “So HEAR me all and LISTEN good” (hear a phone ring and listen on the phone)

    “The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.” ff

    My thoughts are that it could work as a hint or a helper, rather than the actual solution to a clue (dual meaning). As a “helper” it wouldn’t have to stand the test of time since it is not an one of the nine, therefore not “essential” to finding the chest.

    • I like your line of thinking KK (no pun intended) it’s the first time I have heard that one, certainly can’t be ruled out. Good work.

    • KK: that’s an excellent idea, and possibly an original one! I haven’t seen it here before, and I never made the connection that many telephone poles look just like a cross of Lorraine.

      • I can’t tell if you are being serious or at little ornery about making that connection (pun intended) 🙂 Either way, thanks 🙂

      • Zap

        Ok, well why are we discussing Cross of Loraraine to be gin with?
        I know i looked at AAAALLLLLL the Christian coded connections over the years.

        I don’t recall a discussion here.
        What is the thinking?

        Lug

        • Hi Lug: can’t speak for KK, but my interest in Lorraine crosses came as a result of trying to identify the never-named object illustrated at the bottom of page 219 in TFTW, which also appears in the book’s end pages.

      • KK: totally serious. It’s a good connection that I should have made myself since I researched Lorraine crosses a couple years ago, and telephone poles have come up more than once in Forrest’s writings (e.g. “The Song of the Talking Wire” by Henry Farny).

        • Thanks for clarifying, Zap 🙂

          I think what I enjoy most about the chase is learning about things I thought I knew about!

    • KK, I have the pole at the first clue. When you start walking, at the beginning, there is a tall telephone pole. I always thought it was there so when you come walking back ‘out” of the forest, you’d know which way to go. The place where your car is at. At least that’s what is at my path. Right next to the church.

      • Interesting Charlie, I have a church as well, but it is not in close proximity to the actual area I am searching.

        I will have to do another “walk thru” of the poem with my map to see if I can understand how you interpret it at the first clue (it kind of makes sense that way to me).

        • Charlie, KK,

          The poem passes twice for a place of faith.

          And points to a body of water, in a “can”.

          But, it’s only my opinion.

          • McB,

            Are you saying that along the route of the poem, that you pass by two places of faith?

            I’m not following your thoughts on a body of water in a “can”.

          • The “poem” passes twice for “one” place of faith. Not you.

            And points to “one” body of water, in a “can”.

            Go with your eyes wide open on your map. Study the sites, not just the poem.

            “Can” can be more than a simple tin. Bigger, like a broad river.

            For you to think. ; )

  19. I should also add, we either line up with the pole, or under the actual lines that may cross to connect to poles.

    • Zap….here’s the “poles” again. pole to pole…
      kk…ALL thoughts are to be considered and I am sure you have started to notice that most ideas/topics have been discussed/thought of here over the years. Every now and again a new concept pops up…

    • IMO, all references to locations in the poem must withstand the test of time. It will be difficult to factor something like that in there. I had thought about a tv/radio station antenna or their shadow. There are a few comments about stations…

      • Oz, (love your name, btw)

        Standing the test of time is something that has made me question that line of thought. And I am just not sure what to think. I have been reading as many ATF I can to try to find something to refute linking it to a pole as a point of reference.

        If it is accurate, the only way I see that being possible as being more of a hint or nod to- kind of an after thought.

        It also has me trying to figure out what exactly in the poem might allude to point of reference in the last few stanza’s if not a pole.

        • kk,

          You mentioned the lines in the poem:
          -the answers I already know- and -hear me all and listen good- to make the connection to the telephone poles. It may be a stretch but I can see why you did.

          If the poem takes us to a general area and we can confidently say we are there, or at least at the starting place, what else will we need to find a 10 by 10 inch chest? We need a waypoint, an arrow of sorts to send us walking in the right direction. I have no way to prove it but the clues must describe some natural features of the land to follow. Phone lines, at least to me, will be a shortcut.

          • Oz10- and phone lines require maintenance which means people certified to make repairs, and these individuals could stumble upon the chest.

            I think.

          • Use wifi? Why telephone poles? I’m not hooked up to them? Remember? So, a router, or old router and norton? Or something different?

      • Oz10,
        That’s the only way it can be, IMO. The only problem will be the water level.

    • Remember all of the references to comments including “cross hairs” from Fenn…also in some of his stories. Many discussions involving cross hairs, poles, lines crossing, SB’s, telephones…old Reader’s Digest story…the list is fairly long.

      • Thanks Ken – I wonder how many poles are in MT, WY, and other search states! Whew. Glad I only have a few to check.

        • kk, nice idea. I have had a similar thought about a pole or poles. I thought about the test of time situation and that really never worried me. That’s because in my lifetime I’ve never seen a telephone pole fail and not get replaced. Something like a telephone pole needs to be replaced once identified.

          I like your thought about a pole being a possible hint type factor. For anyone using a telephone pole or poles clue-wise I’ve thought that poles would make a terrific stand in for the mysterious “IT” in the poem. One pole without a cross member and another pole with a cross member nearby. Both spelling “IT”.

          • I had not considered the “IT” part of it. Concrete thoughts, and something to look for, thanks!

      • Frosty’s polarity. Scrapbook 13. Scrapbook 87 polar bear (and the what color bear riddle). Scrapbook 172: roof support for Kiva A used as a bell pole. Scrapbook 181. TFTW pgs. 192-194 (teepee poles). Invictus quote. Notice that the picture of Peggy with her fishing pole on page 95 is mirror-reversed in the end papers. Poles are everywhere.

        • Thanks for the reminder of all the “poles”, I had forgotten about some of those.

          Now to figure out all the “bob” wire references!

          • My problem with a pole be used is that there is a plan in the USA to eventually put all utilities underground. At present it doesn’t look like it will happen anytime soon but I believe it’s a great idea to get rid of the unsightly poles and lines and put them underground and out of sight.
            I can easily see people in the future following through on this.

            Kanafire

        • Agree, poles are everywhere. North Pole. South Pole. Polling place. Post (office). Stake… :’). ? And then there’s slope.

        • Maybe Forrest is directing us to whats on the end of the pole, i.e. a telephone, and more importantly the dial of the telephone. Perhaps the numbers and letters on the dial will give co ordinates if you have the correct key word? But, what do I know.

          • Maybe it’s confirmation bias but all of this talk of poles and dichotomy just completely validated my solve in yet another way that I can’t yet elaborate on.

          • Eric. I am super curious about your findings. I cannot wait to hear about your search. Good luck my friend.

          • I see a lot of mention of poles and of vaults. Does anyone
            here besides me think that this may be a valid hint that might relate to a “pole vault” ? All IMO.

        • zaphod73491 & fundamental design,

          I think everyone is missing the meaning that FF intended for us to understand when he talked about poles and polarity. I think the following definition is the one that applies to poles and polarity in FF’s writing. Polarity= the state of having two opposite or contradictory tendencies, opinions, or aspects. (google)

          FF has talked about his friend Eric Sloan and stated that Eric Sloan was a dychotomy. I had to look this up when I read it because I had never heard of the word. Interestingly, the word “dychotomy” is a synonym of “polarity” Dichotomy= a division or contrast between two things that are or are represented as being opposed or entirely different. (google)

          IMO, when we hear FF talk about poles or polarity, he is talking about a synonym of dychotomy which he apparently appreciates.

          IMO

          • Flutter by,
            I agree. It reminds me of the backwards
            bicycle. You need to train your mind and body to turn the handles in the opposite direction that you want to go.
            I think there is something important to this but, I don’t know what.
            I believe the one that can figure it out will find Indulgence.
            IMO
            Kanafire

          • Flutterby, I was more interested in a simple connection to what the mysterious “IT” in the poem could be.

          • Sure, this may be the case when he speaks of polarity and or dichotomies. But I don’t think talking about fishing poles, teepee poles, bell poles, totem poles and other such poles have anything to do with that definition.

            I think the whole idea of being able to think in a dichotomous manner, means being able to consider that some of the poles he speaks about could be a nod to a pole near the TC, even if it conflicts with a belief regarding how long hints (not clues) should withstand time.

          • Fundamental,
            IT has so many word usages ‘it’ can drive ya nuts.
            However; it is in the poem. I don’t know what fenn’s intent was by using it, but it seems to me it should be something we should already know about.
            IT : referring to a fact or situation previously mentioned, known, or happening.

            LOL it doesn’t help us much, but it’s a ‘start.’

          • Kanafire, this is simple. Suggest looking at “Warm.”

            W ar(e) M
            W and M interchangeable . .
            Means up and down interchangeable.

            Idea confirmed by first last letters Lines 2/3/4 which spell IDEA two ways via diagonals. A fake line run vertically through the Xs, rotated 90 degrees puts M over W.

            Strongly suggest that the solution to the Chase will come from an elegant combination of puzzle hints that include letter swaps, acrostics, etc., with the chest location being imparted via mathematically -guarded coordinates. Everything needed is provided in the poem, IMO.

            Takes a lot of work and creative inspiration to work through all the permutations, but I believe it can be done successfully. If not by me, by someone.

            Regards.

          • Was looking for what literally could be an “IT” out in nature. Which is the dichotomy of the synonym path.

          • “Previously mentioned” ….which ties back to first stanza. Bravo ! This was discussed at length many moons ago…but it was swept under the proverbial rug by most…or circular filed for nor fitting.

          • Flutterby, yes this makes a lot more sense when talking about references to poles and/or polarity. I can subscribe to that.

            Physical telephone poles will encroach into two different no-no’s, first the test of time and second the relationship to man-made structures.

          • Flutterby –

            Don’t forget to simplify when you are working on your ideas.

            You mentioned State and breezed right passed it. There are 4 states in the search area. There are 2 states of water that we often consider.

            Lugnutz

          • Ken, ~’“Previously mentioned” ….which ties back to first stanza. Bravo ! This was discussed at length many moons ago…but it was swept under the proverbial rug by most…or circular filed for nor fitting.’

            All I got was ‘I’m many moons old’
            I guess we see what we want to see…lol.
            Maybe I should have gone with… ‘I’m lengthily’ That can be taken a few different way as well.

            OK~ on a serious note… I think the Idea of “IT” as previously known or told of… relates to having to “learning” what / where WWH is.
            But I’m sure someone will yell at me for that idea too, it’s not “plain” enough to be grammar correct.
            It’s a good thing i’m so lengthily, um tolerantly patient.

          • Seeks said…I think the Idea of “IT” as previously known or told of… relates to having to “learning” what / where WWH is.

            I’m close to having that interpretation but I think a certain, local landmark is what is previously specified by hints.

          • Exactly FD,

            This is place where we found:
            “alone” “bold” “can” “new and old”

            This is “below the HbO”

            But, before we need “understand” what is WWWH+CD.

            Otherwise, is all lost time.

          • Gang,

            I made a comment about “it” on the “What is “IT” thread just a little while ago. I sense a movement in that direction with this discussion – maybe it’s just a gut feeling. 🙂

          • seeker…FD
            The “previously mentioned” line of thought for IT is a great lead-in for how one may extract info…hint…from the first stanza to “learn/discover” what/where wwwh is.
            Some folks I believe dismiss the idea that the info is IN the poem and need to garner their wwwh from an external source…or just pluck one out of thin air. I would bet money that the info necessary is not external….and not a magic bullet extracted from any comment or “directly” mentioned in TTOTC.
            The whole “IMO” conversation is necessary to a point if things are out of hand and folks can’t use words like adults. The truth is that often times the loudest “fact” pushers turn into the loudest IMO cops…it is a pattern noticeable if you’ve been around the block a few times….fun stuff if one remembers that this blog can be a blast and EVERYTHING folks say is pure speculation.
            Another 5 cents worth…for free.

          • Probably not terribly relevant, but if you jam the I and T a little closer together in the word IT, you generate the Greek letter pi. Forrest sure likes to talk about pineapple, cherry and apple pies. (What’s he got against blueberry or pumpkin?) 😉 Maybe he singles out pineapple pie because it’s a pi-pi.

          • Ken,

            I do not know if you agree, but the first stanza describes a place.

            A place that is below HoB.

            This stanza gives no clues, just the image of a place.

            I had this certainty after reading the SB 17 poem written by FF’s father.

            But, as I have “more luck in the heart than good sense in head”, I have found the name of this place with a valuable tip from a searcher friend.

            I think I can throw away something:

            My solution runs “whole” for only 1/2 mile, on the banks of a river and to the below a road, in the camp.

            If I am right, I will be eaten alive by the chest eagles, but if I am wrong the boiled vultures await me this weekend.

          • McB….I truly admire your humor and good sense ! Fear not the circling vultures…by the time they come to roost, you won’t really care.

          • McB,

            I like your thinking on your list here-This is place where we found:
            “alone” “bold” “can” “new and old”

            My recipe includes the ingredients alone, treasures bold, secret and hints new and old.

  20. I stumbled across an article on Fenn’s treasure in March 2018. I was instantly intrigued. Like many of you I read the poem, listened to and read Fenn’s interviews, and quickly came to an interesting possibility.

    My wife and I are travelling to the Rocky Mountains in July to investigate our solution.

    Will I find the treasure? Probably not.
    Will I have a great adventure? Definitely.

    Good luck everyone and enjoy the great outdoors!

    • Happy Hunting, Pura Vida! Positive thinking can take you a long way, but a positive attitude will take you further. I think you will have a grand adventure 🙂

      • When you ask is CD literal – What are you asking? CD can mean Continental Divide – Yes it is literal.

        CD is used by McB to mean Canyon Down. Is Canyon Down literal? That is for you, the searcher to decide. For me, and me alone, yes, it is literal. JMO – JDA

      • Blubelle,

        I agree with JDA,

        It depends more on your solution.

        I will explain my idea that I use in my solution.

        In Brazil, when a person is putting himself in a difficult situation, without solution, we say that he is “going canyon down”.

        I use something similar in my solution.

        “it” going “canyon down”.

        The other form is literal indeed!

        “it” descends the “canyon down” for real!

        Both ways serve me.

        You did understand?

    • Flutter,

      Think of it as a place to store something.

      “I ‘can’ keep my secret where,”

      Bold “need” to this. Meek not.

      JMO

      • McB,

        You said, “Think of it as a place to store something” (the jar or can)

        Oh, its a place to store something for sure. But, its still a jar IMO
        In fact it is quite closely related to that kid at school that FF didn’t like who gave him a jar of olives. “What’s that all about?” FF

  21. Can someone please post a picture of the boy sitting on the grave stones looking in the night sky please? Tia 🙂

    • Butch;

      Do not know how to post a picture on Dal’s site, but email me and I will send it to you via email – SculptorJDA at aol dot com – JDA

  22. Just visited the Old World Auctions website. This is an antique map, print and book auction site. I like old maps and visit this site to see what is for sale.
    Anyway, on Lot 102…the second map…British Possessions in North America, has a Warm Water River on the east side of the Rockies. I’ve never seen a river named Warm Water…not sure it is still named this as many place names have changed over the centuries. The map does not show state boundaries as it was published in 1809 and I cannot judge what state the Warm Water River may be in.
    Disclaimer: I do not represent or work for the site or it’s owners. I just like old maps and they sell them.
    Just thought it could be related to the solve as it has Warm Water River as a named river.
    Hope it helps a searcher. Good luck and stay safe.

    • Tarheel Searcher;

      About a year ago, someone on the blog mentioned that the Native American’s (Don’t know which tribe) once called the Wind River the Warm Water River. The Wind River would be on the east side of the Rockies. I don’t know if this fits the map you saw, but it might. – JDA

      • JDA,

        I’ll check my current maps to the antique one from the site. FF is an archaeologist and historian so it may be related.

        Thanks for the info. Who knows….it may help with a solve.
        Good luck and stay safe out there.

        • Tarheel and JD

          It was I that mentioned that the Shoshone referred to Wind River simply as Warm Water River. Many of the early names of places are like this.

          Place where waters gather.
          Place of the big rocks.
          ETC.

          I cannot find the source of my knowledge of that name. I will look again and post a link if I can.

          I will reaffirm my position that Fenn wold not want us to retrieve anything from Reservation lands. Something to keep in mind.

          Lugnutz

    • If it is from 1809 and is authentic, it would have to relate to Lewis and Clark. Their expedition was 1804 to 1806. I would try and marry your map to the Louisiana purchase, which was 1803. The only thing I find weird is that you said British possessions. In 1809 we purchased a ton of land from the French for pennies. That was the Louisiana purchase which includes most (eastern portions) of the 4 state search area. To the west, the Spanish controlled the land all the way to California. To the east of the L.P was the new beginnings of America which we proudly kicked the English out of well before 1809. The only Brits in this area in 1809 would be in the Pacific north west and what would become Canada.

    • Warm Water River is a bit southwest of 45N, 110W on the map in question, and east of the Divide. 45N is the Wyoming/Montana border, and 111W is the Wyoming/Idaho border, so in theory it’s in the northwestern quarter of Wyoming.

      But the Continental Divide is displaced to the west on that map, so it’s a very fuzzy placement. Though Warm Water IS all over that part of Wyo, from headwaters of the Green to Thermopolis to Yellowstone.

      It’s obviously a very coarse map, but curiously the least populous town in Idaho is named Warm River, and is in about the right spot, though on the wrong side of the Divide. I doubt there’s a connection.

      Look around the same spot (45N, 110W) on the other map in Lot 102. That map has much better developed hydrography, and that cartographer clearly had access to Lewis & Clark expedition data.

      Here’s the 1814 Lewis & Clark map (this map’s longitude is measured from Washington on the top, so 33W up corresponds to 110W as measured on the bottom):

      (I tried posting this several times with the link, but it didn’t take – you can find the 1814 map by going to the Lewis and Clark Expedition article on Wikipedia – it’s in the Geography and Science section of that entry)

      None of the river names near the Warm Water River on the map in question are to be found on Lewis&Clark type maps – my best guess is they’re based on earlier reports, since this cartographer has different names, shows headwaters only, and can’t trace them reliably to the Missourie. He does have a rudimentary upper Missourie, sketched with dotted lines.

      I love the “Pearl Shell Lake is here about according to the Indian Accounts” legend. It’s reasonably close on the map to the actual location of Great Salt Lake (41N, 112W), making allowance for the westward displacement of the Continental Divide on the Lot 102 map.

      Jake

  23. Update to above post.
    The maps have been sold but can be viewed on the site by browsing current auction from the drop down tab. It is Lot 102, second map.

    • Native Americans called the Wind River ‘Warm Water Creek.” In my zillion pages of notes, but don’t know where I found it.

  24. That’s right Ken, I believe IT is tied to the riddle in the first stanza and IT is followed until the last line IT shows up in the section of the poem that contains the clues.

    • Aaron,

      *IT* can mean the Chase or Your Search in both instances in stanza 2 only. The *IT* to me, has been so…..misconstrued, to many things or meanings. Also *IT* has nothing to do with anything in stanza 1.

      I simply can not see what all the hoop-la is for *IT* and all the effort put in on that word, to me it’s useless for solve, as *IT* is neither a clue or hint in stanza 2 only. To me it’s something that takes one down a rabbit hole when there is no hole to even look at.

      That’s just my thinking, which reminds me of an impeachment proceeding as to what *IS* is, which proved to be nothing as to what it might be. (just an example, not being political at all)

      • Charlie, if it is only the search then how do we know what path to take? Is there nothing that brings all the clues together?

        • It is not the way, it is the place.

          Study your WWWHs.

          So start by looking for precision. Specific clues points.

          The poem (not you) pass two or three times for some clues. Pay attention to the poem and his orders.

          Anything over a few hundred yards “loses” any accuracy and possibility of recovery.

          You have good ideas. Test them anywhere and you will discover the architecture of the poem.

          Just one detail:

          “DO IT” exactly what the poem says. No up, so do not go up. No place, so there’s no such thing there. Bold, so do not meek. Look down, then look below. In wood, so go where this it is or was made of wood anytime. Among others.

          FF said to follow the poem… then follow… directly.

          But always accurately, precision.

          IMO…

          • Thanks McB, I have what I believe to be an accurate path. I was just curious as to how CharlieM’s clues connect. And yes CharlieM, when I ask myself I see them connected by it. If they were not I feel I would be looking for random points on a map of the RM’s and playing connect the dots.

        • Aaron,

          IMO The clues will tell you what path you take. Poem + Map and marry. That’s provided you have the correct wwwh. aarrgg!! all our dilemma. 🙂 Summer begins early tomorrow morning, hummm…gut feeling, begins.

          • Okay CM, are these clues that we marry on the map physically connected in your mind?

          • Aaron,

            I thought about your question, ask yourself, do they? It’s a baited question? Of course things are connected, everything is, in the RMs.

      • CharlieM

        I have been thinking that “it” may mean water. When you are at the place where warm waters halt, you are seeing “it” and when you take “it” in the canyon down, you are following the water (it).

        Also using simplification, “it” could simply mean “your quest” or “your search”. Other meanings of “it” are somewhat meaningless. Forrest said to “simplify if you can…”.

        Franklin

        • Charlie M,
          “I” = water
          “It” = where water has gone
          The reason we must take “it” is because “it” is our guide.
          When FF slid down the rusty fire escape, he said “everyone knew where “I” had been” “They were beginning to notice me”.

          This story IMO confirms for us that “I” =water and “it” = where water has been. In fact, water has “done it tired” (over and over” and now is weak.

          Its important to follow “it” rather than “I”.

    • What is “the riddle in the first stanza” ?
      In my opinion, the first stanza of FF’s treasure hunt poem contains no
      question mark(s).

      • Tighterfocus: in my opinion, the riddle is simply solving “where warm waters halt”. Part of the answer lies in the first stanza.

      • tighterfocus,
        In my opinion, there is no riddle in the first stanza. It simply is describing the process with which water left behind a trail for us to follow. If we understand that process by studying geography comprehensively, the poem begins to make sense.

      • It is an I riddle such as:

        You saw me where I could not be.
        Yet, often you see me.
        What am I?

        Only he left out the ‘What am I?’
        He also left of the title to the poem.

        By the way the answer to that riddle is reflection, in case any are wondering.

  25. McB, you said “the first stanza describes a place.

    A place that is below HoB.

    This stanza gives no clues, just the image of a place.”

    Most people, me included, believe that the first stanza helps with WWWH. If you believe that it instead helps with the spot below HoB then how do you determine WWWH and is it even important in this scenario?

    Forrest said ‘You need to start at the beginning. You need to figure out where warm waters halt.’

    Are you saying you would be able to skip to below HoB with the first stanza?

    • Seeker and fundamental design,

      “I I think the Idea of “IT” as previously known or told of… relates to having to “learning” what / where WWH is.”

      I believe that “it” tells us where “I” has been. But, I believe (and have from my first read) that WWWH must be discovered with your imagination. Not that you dream it up. But, that you can picture a process in nature and look at the poem from the point of view of the natural process. Then “it” will show you where “I” has been and from there, you have to figure out the rest of the poem right down to the very last word.

      • Flutterby,

        We have the same idea, but not the same ideas.

        I think “I” [ you may like this ken ] Is the riddle we need to figure out that give us the understanding of WWWH, or how we nail it down.

        The first stanza, and even the next three stanzas may be narrated by fenn, as an other.
        I went a lone, to mean the “first” to be there ~ [ fenn’s now special place ]. It is he or she or what’s treasures that is being told of, and I’s treasures could hint of riches new and old.

        Stanza 2 3 4 holds fenn clues of the location and how to discover fenn’s “trove”

        This might be why fenn now must go and leave his ‘trove’ … fenn may not have been to this location when I was there, but fenn know of the place because of “I”

        So why is it I must go and leave my trove for all to seek?
        [Please revert to stanza 1] The answers I already know, I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak… I’s hints of riches new and old.

        IF we can understand what is “previously known or told of” … we may understand the poem’s clues references.

        Is this the idea of, the book will help with the clues, overall, rather than the idea of answering the clue’s references?
        We have been told we need to; know where to start, need to start at the beginning… OK, sounds simple enough… skip stanza one and go directly to the first clue. That idea, imo is the illusion we make stanza 1 to be.. an intro to what fenn did.

        Other than creating the clues… I don’t think fenn pops in until stanza 5, and basically is tell us to go back to the ‘start’ the ‘beginning’…
        As I have gone alone in there and with my treasures vs. why is it I must go and leave my trove… I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak.
        Subtle indicators?
        I have, I’ve
        Treasures, trove
        “Gone” alone [ the first to have done it ] I must “go” [ the second to do it ]
        Hint of riches, tired and weak.

        A Riddle or A Diddle… you decide.

        • Seeker,

          It’s a dialogue. Two characters interspers talking.

          FF is one, but the other you have to find out.

          A whisper: Trove is not the treasure or the chest.

          And, yes, stanza 5 is a continuation of stanza 1.

          IMO of course …

          • Treasures can be of value to some, or only valued by the one who possesses it.
            Trove is of value with no ownership. The words are synonyms, but different.
            The chest is just a chest in this case. but can have other meanings. Only, fenn ‘could have’ said; just take the treasure and go in peace, but he chosen to use the word chest. hmm.

            Fun little fact is; I never seem a comment from fenn mentioning “treasures” ~ only treasure or treasure chest or even chest… and I can’t recall any comment of him using trove either.
            But for some reason he wanted “treasures” where it is in the poem, and “chest” and “trove” in their little spot in the poem… ya gotta ask, what’s that all about?

          • Seeker,

            In my solution the only word that refers to the “hidden treasure” is “chest.”

            The others refer to things quite different from what they seem. Trove is the most peculiar of all. And it is the one that defines an exact point in my solution, to the right of the blaze. A tributary of a river.

            IMO : )

        • The poem/nine clues is the riddle…in its entirety. I believe that it is fruitless to parse out pieces of it as a definitive answer to the whole. Decipher beyond doubt the first clue and that will begin the process to put it all together as a unit. I do not believe it is a case of Fenn describing the actions or knowledge of anyone but himself…this is his journey, and we need to “follow” to discover the location of the treasure.

          • fund…that actually makes me feel good. everyone sees it different…and the results have been the same for all. curious about the actual difference you see…?

          • All in one.

            All clues attached pointing to a specific spot.

            If it is not so, it is all a waste of time.

            IMO

          • ken..yep, no problem with different viewpoints, it’s all good.

            I think there’s a specific mystery (riddle, puzzle) in the first stanza. That to me means that you have to pass that hurdle first to identify the correct wwwh and the next hurdles.
            So, I don’t think it’s fruitless to try and parse our pieces as a definite answer to the whole.

            Also, I do believe it is a case of Fenn describing the actions or knowledge of someone(s) else in addition to himself in the first stanza.
            Just my opinion.

          • FD, Ken,

            I’ll throw it out:

            In my solution:

            Place name is on line 1.
            The name of the river relates to line 2.
            HoB is described in line 3.
            The name of the region is on line 4.
            The way to the HoB, on line 17.
            The “below HoB” location, on line 18.
            To understand “where” I was, on line 19.
            And why I was “at that point/place”, on line 20.

            But I only knew this “after” completing the “whole” solution, absolutely “the whole solution”, including stanza 6, which is “what” should I do to get to the chest.

            Attention: “IMO”

        • I think you are headed the right direction Seeker only I is not something that was just there in the past but still there. When studying the usage of “have gone” you will find that it also means has not returned.

          • Yes Aaron,

            It’s still there, but “it’s not” from there. “have gone” is gerund of time present.

            IMO : )

  26. kanafire,

    You said, “t reminds me of the backwards
    bicycle. You need to train your mind and body to turn the handles in the opposite direction that you want to go”

    IMO, polarity has nothing to do with the backwards bicycle. I don’t think the backwards bicycle applies to us doing anything backwards or opposite. I think the backwards bicycle is kind of a metaphor for looking at things a different way. As in, “to the dirt I am Caliph, but to Caliph I am dirt”. I know I got that quote wrong but my book is home and I”m on vacation. But, for the moment, I think its close enough to get the point across.

    Polarity, IMO applies to a specific geographical location which is a dychotomy.

    Don’t you just love the word dychotomy? I do. I like finding out about words that I’ve never heard of and finding out what they mean. Dychotomy in my opinion is important to a location in the solve.

    • Flutterby,
      What I’m trying to say with the backwards bicycle is that a clue may mean the opposite of what we may think it to mean.
      I certainly hope that you do not think that I’m trying to be argumentative . I totally respect others thoughts and post and truth is Forrest is the only one that could tell any of us that we’re wrong.
      Thank you for replying to my comment and yes I too have learned a lot about the meanings of words thanks to F.F.
      I enjoy reading your post.

      Kanafire

      • Kanafire,
        I dont think you are being argumentative. I see what you are saying. Question: how do we know if a clue should mean the opposite? I dont think “down” is a directional clue. I think it refers to a grassy area. But, that isnt the same as an opposite. Can you explain or is this top secret (which is understandable)

        • Flutterby,
          I’m sorry. I don’t have an answer to your question. I wish that I did have one. When I think about this, I’m like how did someone correctly figure out the first two clues and walk by the other seven.( according to Forrest they’re supposed to get less difficult as we go along). And then FF. says some have been within 200’ and walked by the TC.
          And so it makes me think what are we missing?
          I’ve always had this gut feeling that while FF has always been honest with us there’s some trick to the-whole thing. Something we have to do maybe, he did say “ brave and in the wood”.
          When he was in school he had to be “brave” to go out the window and down the fire escape when the teacher turned her back to the class.
          So thank you for reading and please excuse me if my grammar isn’t correct. Like Forrest I didn’t much like school either. And I may not have the quotes exact but, I believe that I have the idea anyway.
          I will tell you something that I find neat, whether I’m correct or not only Forrest knows. Over the years I’ve communicated with FF and he knows my real name but on here I’ve always used the moniker “Kanafire” which happens to be a Native American ancestor of mine. Well after I told Forrest my moniker and what it meant he started using the moniker “Forrest Fire “and then he must have realized that probably was’nt a good idea.
          All the above is IMO of course.

          Good fortune to you and yours,
          Kanafire

          • Kanafire,
            You ask, “how did someone correctly figure out the first two clues and walk by the other seven”.

            For starters, I’m not sure where in the poem the first clue is. FF has said, “many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”(https://dalneitzel.com/2016/07/30/the-nine-clues-part-sixty-seven/)

            Notice that he didn’t say they won’t know for sure that they have understood all of the clues until they find the TC and then they will know. He is talking about the “first clue” Why not the other clues?

            What was that story in TTOTC where FF talks about the family listening to the raido show ‘Mr District Attorney’. He mentions that the show was over at 8. I find this interesting. I know nothing about the show but I find it interesting that it ended at 8. Did it really? Or could it be that 8 is important because once we have the 8 clues, the last one will total 9 and we will be holding the TC.

            So hopefully you can follow my reasoning here. FF also talked about the radio program that did the countdown to the most popular song of the week. They counted it backwards. If one counted the clues backwards, then technically, once you find clue #1, you would be holding the TC. So are we starting with clue #9, and then #8, and #7? I won’t ever know because I don’t count clues. I follow what the poem tells me.

            I also believe that those people who walked right past the “other seven” clues probably didn’t understand the significance. They may have arrived at the correct location using the wrong reasoning and not really understand the wording in the clues, but just happened to select a starting point for the wrong reasons that happens to be the correct place.

            You also said, “I’ve always had this gut feeling that while FF has always been honest with us there’s some trick to the-whole thing.”

            My opinion about this whole thing is that the only trick is to figure out the point of view the poem is told in. If the poem is told just by FF about his adventure to hide the TC, then we can think we understand the words and never seen what they really mean. But, if the poem is written in a different viewpoint (“its not who you are. Its who they think you are), then the poem takes on new meaning.

  27. fundamental design,

    I don’t think that “it” is mysterious at all. IMO, the poem tells us what “it” is.

    • Do you mean there was never a time when what “it” referred to was unknown to you or others? That’s what I meant.

      • fundamental design,

        I’m not understanding what you are asking, “was never a time when what “it” referred to was unknown to you or others?”

        I have thought since soon after reading the poem and TTOTC that “I”=water and “it” = where water has been. I don’t know that anyone to this point agrees with me about that, but I think the book hints agree. So “it” is not mysterious to me. As far as others go, you would have to ask them.

        If it is what I think it is, then people see it all the time when in the RMs but just don’t pay attention.

        IMO

  28. Seeker,
    You said, ” it seems to me it should be something we should already know about.
    IT : referring to a fact or situation previously mentioned, known, or happening.”

    YES! Exactly. The poem has told us what “it” is IMO. It’s really quite simple. Probably so simple, that most people don’t know that they know it. IMO, I know “it”

  29. Seeker and fundamental design,

    “I I think the Idea of “IT” as previously known or told of… relates to having to “learning” what / where WWH is.”

    I believe that “it” tells us where “I” has been. But, I believe (and have from my first read) that WWWH must be discovered with your imagination. Not that you dream it up. But, that you can picture a process in nature and look at the poem from the point of view of the natural process. Then “it” will show you where “I” has been and from there, you have to figure out the rest of the poem right down to the very last word.

  30. Butch,
    I can’t post the pic of the boy on the gravestone looking at the night sky. On vacation and my book is at home. But, I can tell you what I believe it means. I believe it refers to the fact that “sooner or later we all become the remnatns of history” The gravestone representst the remnants of history or the story in rock/stone format that shows us how the RMs (in specific spot) were formed. The fact that the boy was “looking at the night sky” refers to look at a “formation” to find “it” and where “I” has been.

  31. Aaron,

    “Most people, me included, believe that the first stanza helps with WWWH. If you believe that it instead helps with the spot below HoB then how do you determine WWWH and is it even important in this scenario?”

    I don’t believe the first stanza helps with WWWH. It does tell you to follow “I” and knowing “I” helps you know what “it” is. But, IMO, WWWH can only be determined by knowing “I” and using your imagination to think of all the places where “I” can go that other things cannot. In TTOTC, Donnie & FF followed a little stream until it got narrower and narrower and grew tall sides that nothing could get through but water.

    Where can water go that other things cannot? Several places actually and both apply to the poem in my opinion.

    Is “WWWH” even important you ask? Yes! It is.

    And while you have also asked about HOB, I will tell you what HOB is IMO. It is the sun. I’m not going to tell you how it applies to the poem just now. But, it does apply to FF’s mother making desserts and taking them “brown” out of the oven and covering them with jams and jellies to make the children’s favorite desserts. Why was Skippy’s dessert a pineapple upside down cake? The geography answers that IMO. So, if the toast came “brown” from the oven, what is the ultimate oven? And, interestingly, the sun helps to drive the water cycle. So HOB is related to WWWH.

    • Reflection of the sun on the blaze at certain times, indicating a spot.

      Blaze shadow over the cache below it.

      Something in the solar clock style.

      Some hole that only lights up with the sun.

      Some combination of water (river or lake), earth (rocks), air (wind) and fire (sun).

      It has to be very specific.

      • Ideas

        water = cold, trove, creek,
        earth = blaze, Brown, gold
        air = TFTW, meek, wood
        fire (sun) = blaze, bold, wise (sunrise), warm, alone (in sky),

      • Not exactly McB. I dont think the actual sun is part of the solution. But its the “answers I already know” that help us figure out a place on the map. I dont mean the sun shines or reflects or hits the earth in any specific place.. The sun is the answer to HOB. Its the ultimate “oven” or place to make things toasted/browned. Knowing the answer to HOB helps us to find a place on the earth that represents (for lack of a better word) the sun.

        IMO

          • McB,

            I do not believe the Firehole River is referred to in the poem at all. I figured out the place I believe represents the sun by reading the story of Gypsy Magic. I knew that the story told me something, but I didn’t know what for a long time.

            IMO

  32. McB,
    Yes. IMO the sun is HOB, but not the actual sun. Something in the geography represents the “sun”.

    But = well

    IMO

    • Sun = rays – A geographical feature that may look like the sun’s rays filtering through a crack in the clouds perhaps? – Often seen in spiritual depictions??? Just a thought – JDA

    • If the sun is HOB, it looks like you’re suggesting that “below the sun” is where
      one should “put in”. I don’t buy it. Please try to relax. All my opinion.

      • tighterfocus,
        I’m not saying anyone should “put in” below the sun. For one thing, I dont believe we are supposed to “put in”. I believe that the correct definition of the word “put” is to place something in a certain position. The synonyms for this use of the word “put” include “settle” and “deposit. I’m looking at land formations to solve this poem. This land formation was “put in below the HOB”. There is a formation that is sort of named by scientists, after the sun. If you knew what it was, you would understand. FF sees it in some of his best dreams (according to TTOTC)

        So while who knows how many people are trying to “put in”, I think they have the wrong definition. It is the land formation that was deposited, not the searcher that must put in.

        IMO

  33. Apologies if its already been discussed on here but does anyone have any thoughts on the amount of gold coins in the TC 265……do we think this is a key number?

        • Butch,

          I have an interesting “conspiracy theory” about this amount of coins, but since I do not have the chest, I can not share it because I would be massacred by everyone here.

          Nothing to do with the poem …

          Maybe in the future. ; )

          But keep researching. Maybe you’ll find something.

      • Me either JDA, however it does seem like a strange number of coins, why not 200? I just think or though imo the solve is simple the more I learn about the poem and its ‘Back’ story I feel that although 265 is not a key number to the solve it is however a important number to Mr Fenn……we shall see.

    • Butch: no good theories on 265 for me. Last day of summer/first day of fall (Sept 22)?

    • 265 is not a special number for my solve either BUT i betcha it will certainly be related in the end solve someway, somehow.

      Ya’ll be safe! 🙂

  34. I’ve always wondered if “I’ve done it tired” meant “I rode a bike” or “I drove a car” or some other form of transportation that requires a tire.

    • Sean,
      I believe that “I’ve done it tired” is talking about a scientific process in nature that has been done tired (meaning over and over through out time). IMO

    • In my opinion, wood is the only thing in the poem that deteriorates.

      So, obviously, it’s something that should be known as wood, but it’s not really made out of wood.

      And since everything in the poem involves geological sites in some way, “wood” may only be recognized directly on the site, referring to something that would normally be wood or made of wood. Or the petrified wood itself.

      Trees do not quite agree with the context of the poem, so forests can be discarded. Besides, “maybe”, forests can not last a thousand years due to urban sprawl.

      This is easily understood: If in just over a hundred years, we have destroyed most of the forests, which we say in a thousand years.

      I think a person (FF) aware of how humanity works, would think about it.

      By the meanings of wood, I believe that will not be the case. Wood must be more symbolic than literal. Something that only the searcher that is in the right place will be able to distinguish.

      I think he has a connection with the blaze, because he’s after blaze.

      However it is “before” of the gold title, and is in a stanza that apparently is an instruction that we must follow “before” recovering the chest. Then it may not be the wood inside the chest.

      It is more likely that it is something that represents wood.

      Great rock formations that look like wood logs.

      An entrance from somewhere, like a wooden portal.

      Settlements of layered rocks, such as stacked planks.

      Among others…

      IMHO …

      • It’s been mentioned before: “in the wood” can also mean in the saddle. Lots of saddles in the mountains.

        • Zap,
          Ty for the thoughts on the in the saddle. I have seen that before. I can’t make it work in my current location.

          I was wondering about fishing near drift wood along a river.

      • McB,

        Thank you for your very detailed thoughts, again. I was both today, & have half the day tomorrow to search. I have a good solve, but my last chance to search. Thanks for you thoughts, again.

        P.S. there is a reference to wood in the poem in the stanza (just take the chest and go in peace)

        A chest is also a “trunk” as in tree trunk

      • McB –

        It may be useful to you to think of “in the wood” as “in the heart”

        Lug

    • Not sure what this has to do with the chase. Enlighten us, unless this is just to get extra clicks to your page.

      • Out of the dark that covers me black is the pit from pole to pole. If you’ve found “the wood” totem caper cafe “totem poles” earlier someone shared the pic of Fenn looking up at the stars. North Pole! Ok so if your in the right wood then your in business! That pole vault looks like a rainbow..,his vault is his rainbow!
        http://homework.uoregon.edu/pub/emj/121/lectures/skycoords.html

        • Jerre, IMO Totem Pole Caper is a very important story offering multiple hints to the poem. But a totem pole is a piece of wood that tells a story. The story told in the Totem Pole Caper is the story of a natural process that formed the area in RM where the TC is . So in my opinion, the totem pole significance is the idea of a story with an underlying meaning.

          • Flutter –

            So in your mind:

            1. Is the story Totem Pole Caper made up in order to provide clues?

            2. Is the story true and coincidentally tells the story of the formed the area where the Chest is?

            Lugnutz

        • A vault has an arch like a rainbow….an open book is shaped like a rainbow.

          I can keep my secret where?

          The news said he was very secretive about what he did, and even Diane Sawyer mentioned
          that he’d written a lot of (bo)oks and had hidden some in a vault so no one could read them. He seemed like my kind of guy but I
          couldn’t figure out how he could be such an important writer when I ’d never even heard f him. At (Bo)rders the next day it was still (rain)ing so I just wandered around the store.
          https://www.shutterstock.com/image-vector/knowledge-symbol-open-book-sun-template-213042334?src=eo6fZLPR7sObogrWw7Ufcw-1-40

  35. McB,
    You said that in your opinion, the only word in the poem that refers to the TC is chest.

    I dont believe there is any word in the poem that refers to the TC. I think the word, chest refers to something else.

    Just thought Id toss out that thought.

    • And that’s why Cynthia was closer than 200ft and didn’t know the significance of where she was.

        • Was Cynthia in Fenns Vault? Any searcher that has been in Fenns vault has been closer than 200ft to the treasure. I didn’t say TC!

        • Butch,
          That’s right…..could have been anyone , who’s the wiser? Soy could have been me. If you only knew. I guess you would have to go by where you told Forrest you were searching , Google Earth the spot, and use the distance reference that is included , which happens to be in 100′ increments. Cynthia has searched a wide area, so this wouldn’t exactly work for her. But if a searcher focused on only one area, by KNOWING WHERE TO BEGIN , it works really well. Remember…”Canasta” .

      • How is it backtracking to say that I dont believe there is a’word in the poem that refers specifically to the TC? I believe the word “chest” is talking about the “main body of . . .”

  36. Seeker, I dont think the word “treasures” in the poem has anything to do with the TC. I think its natural treasures/resouces. Also dont think trove is about the TC. Its about something else. I dont think there is any word in the poem that refers to the TC

    IMO

  37. Can we beat on this other dead horse? All opinions welcome…

    If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the Rocky Mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest? Thank you ~Nope Thank you Nope. Nope

    How much there is to the back story? If in 500 years from now somebody finds just the poem with a note at the bottom that reads, ‘solve the riddle in this poem and it will lead you to a chest full of gold and jewels’, will that be enough of a back story to move forward? Is that all that is needed, to know that it is a hidden message to be solved?

    If we now know it is a riddle, do we also need the (9 clues) knowlege? If we know those two things now, do we still need to know that it is in the mountains north of SF to be confident? If we didn’t know that last clue, will the poem take us to the Appalachians as well?

    What about the TTOTC book, or knowing about ff life’s experiences, is any or all of that part of the back story ‘needed’ to solve the poem? How deep do you think it goes???

    • You’re asking us to beat a dead horse? Seeing as I’m extra grumpy today (as opposed to my usually moderately grumpy), how could I resist.

      One thing sticks out to me about that ATF. The question asked about the likelihood of a successful solution to a standard of reasonably instead of a lesser standard such as possibly. So by opening up the area to be considered to the whole world instead of just the Rockies it might drop the chances of a successful solve to below a reasonable level.

      Fenn has said that knowledge of geography is helpful. Greatly expanding the possible area would proportionally increase the amount of geographical information to sift through. All of the land surface area of the earth is 150 times the area of just the Rockies. Even if we discount Antarctica, North Korea, etc as possible hiding places we would still have about 100 times as much area to consider as we currently do. No one has solved this thing for 7+ years, would making it ~100 times harder (if knowledge of geography is crtitical) make it unreasonably hard?

          • Nope I still have the same solve. All the snow is gone now in my area and headed back this weekend. Still very confident. Thanks for asking Butch.

    • OZ10,
      I coulfd make no sense out of the poem until I tossed the book. I literally put it in the trashcan and walked away. About an hour later, I decided I could just put it on the shelf and ignore it until I figured out what this poem is saying. The more I began to see that the poem is talking about geographical places, the more I understood that the book has value. At first I thought FF was an idiot. Sorry FF, but I have changed my mind as Ive studied the poem. Or maybe I just lost my mind. Either way; my opinion of FF writing stories with names, places and real people which represent places on a map and parts of the water cycle is that HE is a GENIUS!

      Yes! IMO a person can absolutly solve this poem without anything but a map. But you have to figure out ther elationship between WWWH and HOB. And, there is a relationship.

      Im not done solving yet, but Im certain of some clues after 3 plus years of thinking. The poem should be the #1 source.

      IMO

    • I believe, in 500 years, people (if we’re still here) will be making their own gems and gold out of that era’s version of a 3D printer.

      • Lady V,
        If people could make their own gems and gold with a 3-D printer, ove rsupply would make them worthless. But, maybe those who follow the poem in 500 years will uncover great treasures by connecting with nature.

    • We could go the simple route and understand that many searchers believe the first stanza of the poem is nothing but an introduction/backstory.

      With this brilliant nope, nope question that takes away the first stanza from consideration in finding the tc for those searchers. Hence, an answer that helps is in the first stanza.

      • Fund,
        That is still words in the poem.. right?
        If stanza 1 has a back story implication to it… the story would still need to be know of… where did the story come from to begin with, that we can draw a conclusion of what stanza 1 means?

        Or am I reading your post wrong-?- and not understanding how Nope’s question ‘takes away the first stanza from consideration’?

        • Seeker, I’m just going off of all of the hypothetical rules to follow of the nope, nope question which is different than how other questions have been asked of f.

          If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the Rocky Mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?

          With your first question, Seeker, you’re thinking you can use all of the words in the poem. But this hypothetical question says you have to eliminate any backstory from the poem, if it exists. The use of etc. in the question covers any backstory or introduction anywhere.

          You said yourself…We have been told we need to; know where to start, need to start at the beginning… OK, sounds simple enough… skip stanza one and go directly to the first clue. That idea, imo is the illusion we make stanza 1 to be.. an intro to what fenn did.

          Whether some searchers correctly believe stanza one is just an introduction/backstory or they incorrectly believe that this question eliminates that stanza for them in trying to figure out the clues. That is why IMO that the first stanza holds a story or recipe to get the correct wwwh. I believe f is saying you can’t figure out where the tc is without the first stanza.

          I think f cleverly found a story, since he likes stories, that leads to the vicinity of the correct wwwh. I think the story reads like a recipe.

          • DF, Seeker,

            Perhaps the first stanza does not give a place or a clue to the chest location, but it may serve as confirmation that you are in the right place.

            It’s not all accessible public place that can be considered “alone”, “secret”, “bold” or that you can leave a treasure without the risk of someone “uninformed” stumble into it.

            I consider the first stanza in this way, as well as the stanza 5.

          • Should read- f cleverly incorporated a story he found into the first stanza.

          • McB, I see what you’re saying. I believe the first stanza gives a hint which is different than a clue.

          • Fund,
            Ok I get the gist better now.

            Only you said ‘I think f cleverly found a story,…’
            “Found” as in an other’s story, example only; Meek’s story? If so we would still need the reference to Meek to think about stanza 1 as this type of approach.
            But that is my point… should stanza 1 be an intro of any kind that give thought to the rest of the poem / clues / conclusion… that is information that is needed to be known of from fenn’s memoirs. So stanza 1 is not usable as in consideration; that the poem’s words alone can ‘just be used’ something else needs to be known of, prior to anything within the poem.

            But, just for grins… here’s another WhatIF… Nope, only asked about; reasonably Just the words in the poem.
            WhatIF there is more to the information in the poem than “just words”?
            B in brown is capped. Could it be an indicator that the capital “letters” [ not the words those letters are in ] be of importance?
            This would still hold true, Nope’s answer to the question and other comments, such as; It’s risking to discount any words. Possibly meaning, that the word or it’s meaning may not be completely helpful in finding the chest, but the word’s Capital letter is?
            Making the poem having ~all the information needed to “find” the chest, But not all the ‘words’ do it, by themselves.

            LOL, As Oz stated starting this little beat down… How much of the backstory is need?
            I could ask, how much of the ‘word’ is needed?
            While Caps are common usage in poems [for each line].. not all poems have them… fenn chose to have them..right?

            I find it hard to completely overlook the idea he took over a decade to work on the poem, made ever word deliberate, calls his poem a blueprint drawn up as if an architect was involved… just to simply have Caps in ‘his’ poem as a poetic manner, Yet, places a capital letter on a word in the middle of a sentences.
            Is it because Brown is a actual name?
            Or, an indicator of a reason each word was deliberate, needing those capital letters, in just the right lines of the poem.

            Oh crap!.. I just broke my favorite bat. That’s ok… I’ll just plan a road trip to Louisville for a new Slugger.

            Either way or any thought about stanza 1 can be possible, but we need to narrow down the possibilities somehow… that actually works.

            BUT, here’s the kicker… whatever works… can’t be considered a clue… in regards to stanza one. We now know for a fact the “clues” start in stanza 2. { that can no longer be disputed }
            But it might just be the glue that holds it all together. The same can be considered for stanzas 5 and 6 as well. {if all the clues are presented, in order, in stanzas 2 3 4}

            LOL… call it the super-glue theory.

          • Yep, I understand what you are saying, Seeker.

            Ultimately I don’t think there is any words from f that says we can’t know of a happening outside of the poem that could potentially help us with a possible hint in the poem.

          • It’s not like anyone who uses a comprehensive knowledge of geography in the Chase strictly got that comprehensive knowledge from only the poem.

    • Oz,

      I dusted of my Louisville Slugger and will take a few swing at the old horse.
      Even though Halo’s question about the nine clues resulted in an answer; fenn didn’t count the clues until he was done… we didn’t know that.
      Yet, fenn wanted us to know that there are 9 clues in the poem that need to be followed precisely. IMO, It didn’t matter how many clues it took fenn to create the challenge, but he felt the need to tell us the final outcome for some reason, when he did finish the poem. Are job is to figure out why. He could have simply said; there are clues in the poem… but he apparently felt it was “necessary” to know.

      In the Mountains N.of SF seems non-important at first. But the location of the range might be more important to know than just a location on a world map. We need to figure that out, but fenn seemingly wanted us to know that as well… yet, it wasn’t till later that it was confirmed ‘Only’ the RM’s [hence one reason SF was mention…?]

      We can look at this two ways;
      fenn was being gracious and wanted to help us narrow down the area of searchable locations?…
      or there was a need for him to say these things.

      Nope’s Question eliminated what fenn seemingly thought we should know of… fenn could of simply stated; there are clues in the poem to be figure out to locate a treasure that can be found in the mountains.
      The information is basically the same… so we need to ask why N. of SF [RM’s] and why ‘9 specific’ clues?
      I don’t go with the idea fenn was narrowing anything down for us… I lean toward the fact that he mentioned them {as written in the book} as important to solving the challenge… such as nine clues, compared to eight or twenty-eight… again, it didn’t matter how many there may have been while fenn was creating them, but if “precisely” is what it takes… he needed to tell us exactly how many [he created] clue’s references it would be, to do it.
      And now we know that fenn followed the clues [ as he previously implied, “there is no other way he knows of” ] we needed that piece of information. I don’t call this a hint or a clue… I call it a fact. It was told outright and with no interpretation needed.
      I’ll add… “precisely” to mean consecutive order as well… following the poem’s telling of the clues [ fenn’s blueprint of the clues ].
      As JW implied, the idea is the difference between “reasonably just use the words in the poem” vs. the “possible” of correct outcome.

      • “Blueprint” is a relatively obsolete word, as the method/technology of
        making a drawing (to be referred to while building something) has
        improved. A more modern/accurate word is “drawing”. But since
        someone apparently likes to keep repeating the word “blueprint” ,
        maybe it’s some kind of a hint that involves the color blue. When I see hints, it tends to “goose” me into action such as intensifying my effort(s) at finding the treasure CHEST — rather than simply appreciating some local scenery to which the poem’s clues might lead me. And the idea of riding a “backwards” bicycle, or backpedaling
        does not appeal to me. Time will be very telling indeed. All IMO.

    • While it is likely his answer is more about the ‘Rocky Mountains north of Santa Fe’ part of the question, I wish this could have been separated into separate questions. She gives him more than one factors and at least one of them leads to a no answer. Since we do not know which one it is hard to speculate. We are left to ask ourselves if we need to know that there are 9 clues in order to solve it.

      • Well,

        FF said:

        9 clues lead directly to the chest.

        WWWH = clue 1

        Find blaze = find the chest.

        So, 9 lines = 9 clues?

        Buuuuuut, the poem does “not stop” in blaze!

        And we should not disregard “any” word of the poem.

        Oh doubt! Oh pain!

        Do as I solved do it a long time ago. Stop counting clues and just follow the poem. Is much more easy!

        : )

        • If not 9 clues then what makes it not possible? Backstory? Rocky Mountain’s north of Santa Fe? It is already nearly impossible to find knowing that it is in the Rockies. Though it would be even harder to find not knowing that it seems like it should still be possible even if only .00000000001 of a chance.

          I’ll stop beating the dead horse after this comment and let the grizzlies have it’s carcass.

    • Oz10 and others,

      Winnowing. Separating the wheat from the chaff, that’s the trick.

      Having said that, the question still stands – is any of the back story needed to find Indulgence? I want to reply no. But I cannot prove that, as I do not have Indulgence in my possession. On the other hand, I cannot imagine being closer to the end of the search without knowing all that I already know – so I am forced to say yes. But I do not want to.

      I am not a “poem purist”. However, I am a problem solver. (My wife hates me for it at times, especially when she just wants me to be informed.) As a problem solver, I like to “walk around” the problem at hand to try to determine if there is more than one way to approach it. At the chance of boring some of you to tears, allow me an example from last night. The rear axle on my pickup leaks. I bought a “parts truck” to take its rear axle out of so I can do a swap. The bolts on the bottom of the shocks were rusted to the barrel of the shock. Sprayed them up with penetrating oil and let them sit overnight. Last night I put the nut back on the bolt, grabbed my 3 lb maul and beat the living snot out of one of them. I moved the mount about 3/4 of an inch, but the bolt remained fast. So, torch or whizzer? I chose the whizzer and air chisel, because it would be neater. The second one I didn’t hit with the maul except about 3 or 4 whacks just to see if it would come loose.

      So, here’s why I told you that story – not to amuse or try to impress any of you, but to relate that in this case there was more than one way to remove a shock bolt. Some worked better than others. It is my opinion that the poem Mr. Fenn has written can only be solved one way. I am still pacing around it, trying this and that, but so far, to no avail. Because there is only one solution, I can see how the back story could be irrelevant. The solution may not require any of it. But it may help me come to the conclusion/solution necessary. Basically, it’s all hints. I suspect that is why Mr. Fenn has continued to say all along that there are hints in the book. Those hints help us see the one, and only one, solution.

      It is my opinion that some of the hints are stronger than others, so strong in fact that they cause searchers to glom onto them up and claim that they are clues to solving the poem, or a piece of the poem.

      I won’t be surprising some of you with my next statement, bit others will disagree, which is ok by me. I am of the opinion that there can be no “partial solving” of the poem. It’s an “all or nothing” kind of solution. Once the solution is discovered, many of us are going to whack ourselves in the forehead and exclaim, “I could have had a V-8”, because the solution will be pretty obvious. If I were a betting man, I would guess that it won’t be complex in the traditional sense of the word.

      But will this solution “require” any of the back story? That’s the 64 dollar question. I’ll go on record as saying no, but it won’t/can’t hurt.

        • McB,

          It’s an older American idiom referring to a game show from the radio era. If you Google it, they’ll tell you more. Within context of what I was writing it was/is this: “But will this solution “require” any of the back story?”

          Hope this helps.

        • McB… the $64 question was from a 1940’s radio show. Contestants started with an easy $1 question. The dollar prize doubled with each question until they got to the last/hardest question, the $64 question. If they answered all the questions correctly, they won $64.

      • I would agree that you probably don’t need the backstory, but there are at least two hints in the book that help. I had an incling that one was a clue before reading TToTC but removed all doubt after reading it. IMO the blaze would be near impossible to solve without TToTC.

      • swwot, I think it comes down to if you feel that the poem has an introduction or backstory in the first stanza. If you don’t believe it does, than you’re not affected by the nope, nope answer by f. But if you believe that the poem contains an introduction there, than the rest of the poem isn’t enough, even though the poem has been enough up until this question was asked.

      • Swwot,
        If I may make a suggestion… I have been where you are, have tried many methods, used a lot of imagination, even came up a few different ideas that no one else seemed to think about…
        **If the hammer and chisel didn’t do the job… get a bigger hammer and chisel.

        But, let me get “back” to the “story”;
        You said; It is ‘my opinion’ that the poem Mr. Fenn has written can only be solved one way. Well… it’s not really an opinion… it is a fact…. and the reason I mentioned the ‘bigger hammer and chisel.’
        That concept works well when working on exchanging rusty parts… But we can’t bound a solve to get a result of what we want it to be. Hence the idea or ideas that the poem is KiSSable, and we can make it work in our favorite search area by making something in that area be a clue, that works for our area.
        That is bounding a clue into a location. Basically we are manufacturing our own solves.

        So I revert to fenn’s comment, one more time;
        “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

        It seems that what we need to understand is; a location first and foremost, before attempting to understand the path at that location.
        I use the word “Understand” for lack of a better word, because searchers have been at the correct location… but apparently… not understanding the significance of the location. Resulting in a wrong path or even leaving the path [ leaving the poem ]… ending up with nothing more than a big heap of rust.

        The questions; Does nailing down WWWH ‘come with/from the ‘understanding of the location first?
        or
        Does nailing down WWWH ‘give us the understanding of the location’ and not just where the clue/clues are at?
        The big picture idea?!?

        I’m trying to figure out which one of those to bound/nail on… before attempting even a “partial general solve”

        Fortune cookie for today;
        You will bound and bound all day if you don’t have the right tool at bay.

        • “The questions; Does nailing down WWWH ‘come with/from the ‘understanding of the location first?
          or
          Does nailing down WWWH ‘give us the understanding of the location’ and not just where the clue/clues are at?
          The big picture idea?!?”

          It appears to have been none of the above for the searchers that did happen upon the first two clues.

          For a successfully solution though I would guess that it would be the former of the two mentioned.

          • Aaron,

            You ask “Does nailing down WWWH ‘come with/from the ‘understanding of the location first?”

            I only this week figured out what “nail down” the clues means. If I am right (and I think I am) then “nail” was a carefully chosen word to suggest two things. Only after I followed the poem to a location that I think is correct, did I realize that “nail down” actually names the place I’m searching.

    • The person who solves the poem successfully will also be able to count the clues just like ff did. So knowing it before hand does not help in the solving. It only helps knowing there is some structure to it. Many of you agreed that ‘in the mountains North of Santa Fe’ is very important to know beforehand. I will put more weight on that thought now. This could be why ff mentioned it from the start, and later took out Canada, Utah and Idaho with confidence. 4 states, just like 9 clues is manageable enough for a 1000 year search.

      All great answers, will finish off that horse another day…

      • I understand all the hints I see. And although doing some of Michael Jackson’s moves has left me unsatisfied, it’s no cause to worry, as Karma is a good thing. IMO.

      • I know I didn’t start the Chase when I first saw it specifically because f only said in the mountains north of Santa Fe. I came back to it once “Rocky Mountains” was added.

        • LOL, How we all see things different. huh, fund?

          I actually jumped all over that statement… creating a solve that work with the mountain range itself… even before the geography comment. I threw up..err mean threw in, the thought of Down the road, and ancient ancestry- slightly relating to Native Americans and how we all are a part of history… HoB and his treasures bold… yada, yada, yada… IT ALL FIT the poem like a designer glove…IT WAS “THE” PERFECT SOLVE…

          Until fenn chewed it up and spit it out with one ATF comment… there are many wwwh in the RM’s and nearly all are N. of SF.
          Now my dogs play with the glove, and the cat is much happier for it… My cat thanks you, Forrest.

          • So this statement from Fenn means that his particular WWWH location, is similar to one that may be south of Sante Fe.

          • Q ~ Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman

            A ~ There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f

            Richard, The full Q&A is above ,,,,,
            Whatever WWWH is the poem referring to, I would think a similar type of reference is also south of SF.
            A lake, for example only.

            If your reference idea of WWWH is only found N. of SF or is only one of a kind,,,, Like: two oceans pass / parting of the waters, that drains it waters opposite of its source and only found in one location in N. America. I’d think it wouldn’t be a possibility.

            What do you think?

          • Seeker,

            I agree with you. This quote keeps popping up in my head. Forrest is literally telling us that his WWWH location is similar to another location. Many locations actually. So there must be something else in the poem to tell us specifically where that is.

            I am new to this chase, so I’m still trying to figure out a lot of things. I have been reading as much as I can, and there is a lot of info to digest.

    • Actually……..If you all would quit taking things so literal, open your minds and think, and do what Forrest suggests, there would be more people hot on the trail. Yes the stories are invaluable, but everything is in the poem, including where to begin . Try a little word play, like “Tea with Olga” and which was the “PROPER TEA”, how Skippy and Forrest were bored and ran along side the car jumping on and off, “RUNNING BOARDS”….Remember, his mind stays at 13, spelling correctly is irrelevant . Remember the story of Skippy making an electric fly killer using manure to attract the flies? Forrest called him “The General”….(General Electric) or HE BE GEN. Fly Swatter, Fly’s Watter , Fly Water . I could go on , but I.M.O. , the Hot Springs you may be searching for might end up being rusty old bed springs sitting in the sun. Now THAT is how this wise guy plays the game. So be soy. Good luck amigos.

      • seattle…good stuff. Nice to see some folks having fun while using their head. happy trails to you.

      • I like how you think SS. Also the nickname for the school janitor is kinda mean if you look at it as a play on words.

      • Morning Seattle,

        I actually ran across such an object during my last search, though it was in the trees mostly. If I could figure out how to post a photo of it I would.

        It was a very old and very rusty car seat with all the springs showing. Not a stitch of fabric anywhere just sitting there on the ground all prim and proper waiting for a car to stop by.

        But what caught my attention was a ladder, maybe 6’ long, made from sawed off tree limbs and duct tape, laying on top of the seat springs. However, as most folks probably know duct tape doesn’t do too well out in the elements and this tape looked kind of fresh, so I didn’t give it much credence.

        The rusty remnants of a second seat were nearby as was a very old oven.

        Later………..pinatubocharlie

  38. I have a special fondness for the book. So I choose to label it as a requirement. The poem was okay, but I know nothing about poetry so disregard if you’d like. Forrest’s weekly words and his book provide the color, and the poem plays the role of the map. If I were to trust my instinct, which has worked for me over the past 37 years, I’d say read the book without the poem and drop a pin in the Rockies that feels right. Then read the poem and try to flesh out a starting point. Then use his weekly words and scrapbooks to see if you can “connect” your area.

    Try to “wear his shoes” and interpret what his drive is, then start walkin as if you were the man himself. Also…..try to be kind and know that folding is always acceptable.

    I sure did enjoy TTOTC. I think the sale of it will continue long after the chest is found.

    • Cooper,
      A nice read can be found in the archive; “Spring decisions”
      Scroll down to fenn’s comment as well.

    • The book helps a lot for those of us doing anagrams. IMO after five years doing these– there is a hint in the book for each line of the poem and its anagram in a single context relating to the story. The hint is in the form of a phrase, often awkwardly inserted.

      If you make an anagram from a poem line and can’t find its corresponding hint in the book, then you need to try again, IMO.

  39. Lady V,
    You are right. I mistakenly called it the Totem Pole Caper. But anyway, it implies a Totem Pole Cafe. But, thanks for clarifying.

  40. I was just trying to catch up here and came across this article:

    https://www.storiesfromthewild-wy.com/single-post/2018/06/14/Seeking-Fortune—A-Modern-Day-Treasure-Hunt

    I know there was a discussion about this article , Dal posted, about Forrest writing a short story in it. Also giving a clue – “it’s hidden less then 680 miles of the Mountain Man Museum” (last odds n end thread), but the discussions – conversations did not hit on what Forrest was trying to convey IMO.

    Pdenver was first to comment on “less them 680 miles” part of that article as being “quite helpful”, but was kind knocked out of the water by a few as not really being a helpful hint. Well pdenver, go back to what you were thinking. The “680” is a hint inside a hint ,and not only that, there is other things Forrest “put in” there that if understood could finally lead you to WWWH and yes maybe even the “word that is key” in the TTOTC book. Connections of his recollections can help lead to the big “picture” and Forrest knows that. So hear him all and listen good, and you just might learn something along the way.
    If you think you have the correct solves in the poem then you should see little hints in ATF comments of Forrest, which there have been quite a few scattered throughout all the years of this chase.

    As always what I say is just food for thought, but “what if”.
    Bur

      • Hi McB,

        I tend to keep quite for the most part, or only get on to “whisper”. I know most posters here tend to miss or skip over my posts but that’s ok because I seem to writes in riddles anyway. I try to say what I don’t want to say ( but I do anyway), because it can lead to where my poem solves lie.

        McB, your post seem like me when I first started the chase and the poem lead me to Firehole too, as one of my solves. But it takes some trips out west of not finding the chest to get your thoughts back to truly understanding the poem and how Forrest life helped in picking this place to which he hid indulgence.

        Yes, the first stanza helps you understand the place WWWH is, but the word that is key can put you on that journey. Don’t get me wrong the poem is all you need for the answers but it’s nice to have confirmation to those answers with facts too.

        So McB, don’t stop what your doing it’s a path needed to take, but open your thoughts more about Forrset and how he said things throughout, and his influences in his life. If you have the TTOTC book now I do encourage you to read it over and over and research for connections. I wish I could tell you more to help with that journey but you seem to have a good head on your shoulders and “it” can get you there.

        Good luck, Bur

        • Ah,

          Firehole was just in my “first” solution. I was pretty “innocent” yet. hehe

          I’ve gone through other places and ideas. Almost 10 hours a day, for three months, you can search a lot!

          If I am not mistaken, we are very close in several things.

          I have a partner at BOTG this week. And you? When are you BOTG?

          We just needed to share Chase’s estate too!

          Success to you! : )

          • McB,

            I can’t even think of all the hours I have put into this chase. I was pretty obsessed the first five years, ok maybe all the years I’ve been doing this lol.

            McB, if I was to tell you the solves to the poem that I have finally found you would say that it can’t be that easy, why didn’t I think of that. But in all fairness it wasn’t that easy, it was a long road to get there. There was one issue I have with the poem and that was the blaze. What I thought it was, from a sattilite view, was not what it is and believing that view it took me in a wrong direction. But after taking photos and video of my 500′ area I seen something that just might fit my blaze issue, right below the water high. Ok not to smart of me not concentrating my search in that area but again that’s what I get for thinking the blaze can be seen from a sattilite view.
            What I seen is about 200′ from heavy loads and 200′ below water high so if you drew a circle from both places it would put a X on a map, where they cross that is where my blaze is located.

            If your in Wyoming with your searching that’s not where I am anymore.

            Bur

          • Bur,

            Do not you know where I am? Currently on NM!

            Are not you in NM too? I always thought you were!

            : )

          • Humm,

            I had two solutions “in the middle”, but either had a lot of distance between the clues or did not give any final precision.

            Good luck on Chase!

    • So, 680 IS important – HUMMMM? Loved the chalk markings – Wonder if Forrest WAS there? Interesting “ARC” and interesting how he wrote his
      name and date – HUMMMM? Velly – Velly Interesting – JDA

      • Hi, JDA

        So you pick up on that, but wrong one. Look again.

        Guess you heading back out soon, well good luck and enjoy. That’s what Forrest wants us to do. Kind of wish I could get back out there. Hopefully is the near future, maybe end of summer, we’ll see.

        Bur

  41. JDA, you should be on the road to recovery by now. Get off of the blogs and bring Indulgence home already. Remember, it’s the thrill of the chase. I hope that you and your team remain safe. Wear a grin home.

  42. Searchers,

    Please,

    What do you have on pages 132 of the TTOTC book?

    About what does this page, or previous / posterior, say?

    Do have something photo or drawing?

    Thanks.

  43. Hope I’m not too late to beat the dead horse! IMO the poem can be solved not knowing anything else. The first stanza gives an approx. area, how the TC was hidden and the format to follow in solving the rest of the poem. Just my opinion I believe there are two blazes, one in each branch of the poem.

  44. I walked less than a few miles. Interesting that he states the last clue can’t be solved from GE and says you can get the first few. So few =8 or 9 miles potentially.

    )Excerpt from MW’s Six Questions 2018

    Q) How much knowledge do you think a normal East Coast Kid has to have to find your treasure? Or is Imagination enough. As an example, would an East Coast Kid have to become familiar with the western ways, languages, and other manners of the Rockies?

    A) It helps to know something about Rocky Mountain geography when making plans to search for my treasure. Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve. Google Earth cannot help with the last clue. f

    • Eric, correct me if I am wrong but you seem to be assuming that because FF states “a physical presence is needed to complete the solve. Google Earth cannot help with the last ” that his reference to a few means 8.

      To me this is another answer that he purposefully worded so it can be construed in different ways. Rather than the point you make, this could also mean: Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues and a physical presence is required for the remaining several clues including the last, which GE cannot help with.

      • Physical presence or anticipated knowledge of the area.

        Nowadays the internet has so much information, that it is possible to know almost everything from almost everything, including about more remote research areas.

        Only GE is very restrictive.

        • True, and the general consensus seems to be that just about all of the clues can be found from the rocking chair. That we have to have a complete solve before heading out. Until the chest is found we will not know how for sure how much needs to be found on site.

          • In my solution GE only helped me “solve” the first two clues.

            The rest was through muuuuuuch research.

          • It seems if all clues can be found from the rocking chair or a few that few could equate to 8 or 9 hence walked less than a few miles could equate to 8 or 9 miles.

          • Variations in water level can have an effect on the size of “land masses”. (I guess this worries the folks who are so concerned with “global warming”.) Please try to relax if y’all can.

  45. ERIC, your avatar photo looks like a
    profile shot of LITTLE E.
    IMO, 4 trips of not much more than
    0.75 mi per trip.

        • Change it on wordpress.com

          In the dashboard, go to Settings, Discussion, and scroll down to Avatars. Make sure Show Avatars is checked. Here you have seven built-in choices. Also choose the appropriate rating for your audience (g-x).

          Mystery Person is the default. Four of the choices are generated. These use the commenter’s name or email address to mathematically generate an image according to the pattern you’ve chosen.

          Select the avatar you want as default and click Save Changes.

      • ERIC,,
        DALE EARNHEART JR.
        also know as little as LITTLE E #88#
        to differentiate from his dad. BIG E. #3

  46. re-send
    Searchers,

    Please,

    What do you have on pages 132 of the TTOTC book?

    About what does this page, or previous / posterior, say?

    Do have something photo or drawing?

    Thanks. : )

  47. Lugnutz,

    I couldn’t say one way or the other whether the Totem Cafe Caper is a true story. What I can say is that that good storyteller can tell a story in a way that embellishes or draws attention to certain elements in order to drop clues. So the story could be true, but FF used certain words to describe the characters in the story so that they fit the clues in the poem and the place on the map. Lets look at The Totem Cafe Caper.

    The first time I read through this story, I knew there was more to it than what was on the surface. Its like the thoughts FF had after reading JD’s book (p 13 TTOTC) “the places in JD’s book were different than mine and the names were different and the time was different from mine, and the schools I never heard about where obviously different, but other than that it was my very own story line”.

    I believe FF tells stories focusing on particular details to tell another story under the surface. A story can be told hundreds of different ways. Its the words that are selectively used that set the tone and help the reader feel what the writer is saying. The names and places and people are different, but the details mentioned fit not only FF’s story (which may or may not have happened), but they also fit the story of the area in the RMs where the TC is hidden. IMO

    Back to The Totem Cafe Caper

    FF mentions that he gets a job selling newspapers. I didn’t realize it when I read the first sentence of the story, but it fits with the idea of the poem leading us to a place that has recorded in stone the history of the area in the RMs where the TC is hidden. Newspapers also tell a story that tells of specific event in history.

    So, FF is selling these papers and he keeps getting splashed by cars that go by and hit the potholes on Canyon (think Canyon down) Street. There are places in the RMs that first began to be formed by potholes, which in geography are known as kettle formations. FF sits down on the curb and his boss drives by and tells him he is “canned”. He didn’t know what that meant and had to ask his mother who told him he’d been fired.

    This is actually a very good example of FF presenting a word to us that can have more than one meaning, which applies to understanding the poem. The word meanings I mean.

    So this story started out with water in potholes on Canyon Street (think Canyon down), Then his mother tells him what the word “canned” meant and he “just stood there while the sun went behind a cloud”.

    This is an example of a good storyteller using words to suggest an underlying story. Did FF just say he was sad to find out he’d been fired from his job? No. He said he stood there while the sun went behind the cloud. This draws attention to the fact that there might be some weather involved here. Coincidentally it puts in our minds the image of the cloud and the sun. What an interesting way to describe finding out he has been fired. FF is a good storyteller.

    FF goes on to say he’d “fallen back to a place where there was no more back to fall back to”. I think this is the next step in the formation of the place where the TC is hidden. Then FF’s mom says it is ok to cry so he does while they stand under the lean-to where his father kept the Plymouth (a rock).

    Now FF has another job at the Totem Cafe. When he talks about jobs, in my opinion, he is giving us another step in the formation of the land where the TC is. Now he says he had to wash dishes. “My hands turned white and had deep canyons in them”. Can you just picture rock formation that starts out as a kettle formation and then water washes over the top of it over a period of time until it carves deep canyons into the rock. He said he hated to wash the kettles used for making brown gravy. So here we have the word “brown” and “gravy”. As I’ve mentioned in other posts, I believe HOB is the sun because it is the ultimate oven. The brown gravy was made in kettles on the stove/oven.The word “gravy” comes from the word grave. “Sooner or later we all become the leftovers of history”. FF refers to history and the dead and sitting on a headstone in a cemetery looking at the stars. I believe he mentions these things because we are looking for a place that represents the “leftovers of history”. A rock formation can hold the remnants of history as well as the story of how the formation itself was created and what has happened to it throughout time.

    So did FF make up the story of washing kettles in the cafe? Who knows? Not me. But, I do believe he focused on words to describe not only what might or might not have happened in the cafe, but also words that describe the underlying story of the place the TC is hidden.

    Then FF “apprehended” the pie and ate it behind a pine tree. This is where we hear that the manager apparently got very upset. But FF didn’t just say he got upset. He gave the guy a nickname “Frosty” and said “there was a severe scene”. Now remember, earlier in the story, the sun had gone behind a cloud. Now we have “Frosty” with a severe scene. Can you picture the bad weather? Stormy with the wind howling and obviously it is cold or the boss wouldn’t have been nicknamed “Frosty”. From there Grandma takes FF into the “frozen meat locker” and tells him that when the owner gave Frosty and inch, he thought he’d become a ruler. That phrase really had me stuck for a long while. I’d always heard the phrase that if you give someone an inch they will take a mile. What the heck was this ruler thing about? And then one day it hit me. A ruler REIGNS/RAINS. Frosty was raining, and probably snowing and hailing as well. At one point he started making “funny wheezing sounds like a garbage truck does when it backs up” Can you picture storm sounds? I can!

    And why would grandma have taken FF into the frozen meat locker? Well, I think it is a period in time (history of the RMs) when FF’s special place was frozen (think ice age)

    First Frosty had fired FF, but then the waitress pointed out that she wasn’t washing dishes, so Frosty informed FF that he was still hired and the “dishes were piling up”. What does that mean that the dishes were piling up? Can you picture layers of rock of various time periods piling up in a basin formation over many hundreds or thousands of years? Then FF says that he wasn’t “too flattened”. I believe this means that his earth/rock formation had changed shape a bit over time but hasn’t gone flat.

    I’m going to insert an image in my head here. I can’t recall where I saw it. I think it was on one of the scrapbooks, but I have no doubt that someone here knows and can tell us exactly where to find it. It was a pic posted by FF of a pile of dishes all stacked up on top of one another. Can you see it in your head? What a great image to represent layer upon layer of exposed rock creating a geographical formation!

    And the story ends with FF telling us that he and Grandma made a good team on Frosty’s day off. I believe he is saying that “Grandma” who represents mother nature in this story, and he did pretty well when the weather was good and FF could get outside to seek for his treasures.

    So is the story of the Totem Cafe Caper true? I don’t know. It doesn’t even matter. What does matter is that FF told this story using words that can describe the creation of a place in the RMs where the TC is.

    I believe that many of FF’s stories are told in exactly the same way; specific words chosen to tell the story on the surface that is hiding the story hidden in the vault (a story inside of a story)

    • Great.

      And then HOW are those clues unintentional or nott placed to aid the searcher?

      In my opinion you fail to simply. You ignore the possible clue in this chapter in order to build your own story.

      You aren’t seeing the forest for the trees.

      IMO
      Lugnutz

      • Lugz,

        What exactly does simplify the clues me to you?
        Each individual reference?
        or
        The concept of all the clue?

        I mean, clues have been indicated as clue, yet not really known by the searchers. So just how simple is simplifying a clue?
        Folks have walked by the seven remaining clues [ assume close enough to see them ] and not known. Some have been at a 200 foot area near the chest [ and depending on the surrounds ] they couldn’t even collectively in thought discover a blaze that should work with the poem.

        Personally I don’t think solving a single clue reference is going to be the idea of trying to simplify each one, as much as trying to simplify how it all comes together… as the process of the clues are thought out, and correctly deciphered. The Big Picture concept, if you will.

        Flutterby’s approach seems to have that in mind while trying to analyze; what is what and what is possible [ the hard part about the task at hand, imo ]
        Over simplifying seems more in lines with looking for a reference point, then hoping another is around, then another, or forcing something to work because of where a search is, with no concept of what its all about… or the Big Picture idea.
        Hence the idea of “manufacturing wwwh” and basically manufacturing any other clues.

        My point is; we may not think the big picture concept as a clue, so we set it on a back burner and hope we will know what it is later… I think understand it prior or during the thinking and analyzing the poem ‘ that section of the full task’ will provide what is needed as we proceed to the next section or ‘stage’ of the full task… botg and observing. But if we don’t know why we need to observe and plan for… are the deciphered clues individually going to be truly known of?

        I like flutterby’s approach, but at the same time I can see the kitchen sink fulling up… and becoming too unorganized.
        Somewhere along the line, we need to start stacking things into the dishwasher, to clean it up.

        • Seeker,

          You said, “I can see the kitchen sink fulling up… and becoming too unorganized. Somewhere along the line, we need to start stacking things into the dishwasher, to clean it up”

          Actually you are forgetting that the dishes got washed in the Totem Cafe. But first the dishes had to be formed and that got done by deep potholes on Canyon Street. (p 47 TTOTC) Once the dishes were formed, they had to be washed and that got done by hand. No dishwashers back then. They were dipped in scalding water and dried. It turned hands white and they got deep canyons in them. (p 48 TTOTC) Then the dishes starting piling up because nobody was washing them for a little while because FF was in the frozen meat locker with Grandma (mother nature). (p 48 TTOTC) FF finally was told he was still hired and he got on the task of the dishes, not feeling “too flattened”. (p 49 TTOTC)

          A good portion of the creation of the area where the TC is hidden, is IMO outlined in The Totem Cafe Caper.

          Now what you ask? You want to get these dishes sorted out, stacked and put away tidy in the cupboard. Well, then you have to find the cupboard they have been put in. And that is where a comprehensive understanding of geography is going to help. I think I’m finding the right cupboard where the dishes and the TC have been nicely tucked away. But, of course we can’t know that until someone is holding the TC.

          So my suggestion is to begin to understand how the geography of the RMs came to be where it is today. Then we will be able to find that hidden cupboard full of dishes and kettles and TC.

          And just to claify, I think that the simple solution is to understand the water cycle and the local geography. Jumping from one topic to the next is not helpful. Thinking some clues or hints are about fishing and others about marvel comics or bible verses or famous people is not simplifying. Looking at a simple, yet complex process that has taken place for many thousands of years and continues on is simplifying. “Ive done it tired”, means it has been done over and over again. One process leads us to the cupboard full of dishes where the TC awaits, IMO

      • Lugnutz,
        You ask, “HOW are those clues unintentional or not placed to aid the searcher?”

        I don’t think the stories in the book are told in any specific order. But, the stories themselves have pieces of the poem written into them. It doesn’t really help you if you don’t know what the poem is about. Only if you know that the poem is written from the point of view of water, then you can see the underlying details in the stories.

        You said, “In my opinion you fail to simplify. You ignore the possible clue in this chapter in order to build your own story.”
        For starters, there are so many details in the stories that if you go looking at the book to find the clues, you will never solve the poem. The clues are in the poem! Simply by solving first the poem and then looking in the stories for the clues. Actually, I don’t think you need the book or the stories but they all support the poem being told from the perspective of water=”I”.

        I do not know of any other word that could replace “I”=water that would show an a theme of underlying stories underneath the surface stories FF tells. In every story, I can see that he is talking about the same elements and processes that the poem introduces. Would love to hear if anyone else has found this to be true with any other word representing “I”

        Don’t worry. I am seeing the forrest! The poem is all you need. It has everything in it to help solve the poem IMO. However, FF said a comprehensive study of geography might help, and it does IMO

        All IMO

        • Flutterby, I like the thought process. You may be right in some of your analysis, who knows, but it’s putting 2+2 together rather well. Whether I agree or disagree, doesn’t matter, It’s progress.

          I’m also assuming that you don’t think hoB is a clue, is that right? That’s okay by me, I don’t think so either if you happen to not. It’s too general of a term to be a clue. If you do think hoB is a clue, then you have a problem, since you say the hoB is the sun. I’m sure you see why I would say…But all together I like the thought process, and how you can tie in some of the stories. There is a reason why he picked the stories he picked for the book, he has so many stories, he could have picked any if they didn’t mean that much. The fact that he picked the ones he did says something. Plus, you know the poem is all you need, so you are not so hung up on outside info as much as seeing the poem for what it is. But it is fun trying to solve what f might be saying in a lot of his outside the poem antics.

          • Maybe with you thought process, seeing the sun and rock formations, maybe it’s all a reference to the blaze. Maybe the blaze is a rock formation. More outside info could be “dancing with the stars”, the page that’s on and the reason for that story. The sun being a star, who dances with the sun? Why, how, where, meaning. Dame fate right? Such a seductive wench, what was she turning?

            Seems like one story could be hints within another story, and more hints into finding a clue. Who knows.

          • Charlie,

            I don’t count clues so could not tell you whether HOB is a clue or not. I prefer to follow what the poem says and not worry about counting clues. How can anyone count clues until they have finished solving the poem?

            Anyway; I think the sun is important. If I told you what land formation I”m looking at that represents the sun, then everyone would be all over it looking before I get a chance to figure out the rest of the poem. I do think that certain statements in TTOTC give a hint to HOB. But, I think you can arrive at the same conclusion without the book. I think Brown is a verb, which means ‘to brown’, like in an oven or toaster.

            FF talked about his mother taking bread, brown from the oven and spreading the children’s choice of jam or jelly on top to make the dessert they imagined. He talked about his pants getting brown when he slid down that old rusty iron fire escape from school. After that everyone knew where he had been because they could see the back of his britches. He also talked about home more than most people might realize in various indirect statements. And, he used certain phrases that help us to understand his thought process on certain ideas having a home. I don’t recall at the moment, but somewhere in TTOTC, FF said that “rage had found a home”. Analyze what that means. Then look at the statement in My War For Me in which he mentioned “where the dangerous air lived”.

            I also believe that HOB has to be connected in some way to the rest of the poem. By that, I mean that the sun is part of the water cycle. The poem tells us to begin it WWWH. So water obviouslyl has something to do with the solution of the poem, but I don’t agree with a lot of folks on how. I think that to find WWWH does not require you to go stand in a stream that goes from hot to cold or cold to hot. It requires you to study (FF said “think”) the water cycle. Where in the water cycle does water halt? And, how does that relate to geography. Surprisingly, when you begin to look at the poem from that perspective, many of the word meanings become more sure IMO.

            Without the sun, the water cycle could not function. But without the other elements in the water cycle, the wind and precipitation, the sun would “brown” the earth. It would simply cook it! So the sun is an important part of the water cycle. It is the giant oven that warms and lights the earth.

            Interestingly, the geographical formation that I believe represents the sun on the map also is a HOB. Its named by scientists after the sun (in a way I can’t explain without flat out telling you) but this place also is HOB because it contains the colors described by FF when he gave the following quotes from Eric Sloane. He said that brown is the “neglected color between red and yellow”. “it is the color of autumn and I love it”.

            It took me a really long time to figure out that there are hints in one particular story about the specific place that is the HOB. I knew the story Gypsy Magic was important, but just couldn’t figure out what the underlying geographical story was. And, then one day I just saw it. FF said, “flashing flamses made dancing shadows that seemed to move wiht the music and there were times when I thougth the girls saw me as they swirled by, but non one said anything. I touched them with my eyes and became part of it as I moved back and forth in the sway. I always stayed until the fire died down and the music stopped. But sometimes I still hear it in my dreams”. (p 42-43 TTOTC) I can see why he still hears it in his dreams and I think he sees it too.

          • flutterby,

            I don’t count clues so could not tell you whether HOB is a clue or not. I prefer to follow what the poem says and not worry about counting clues. How can anyone count clues until they have finished solving the poem?

            Lol, I’ve been saying it for years. Not a popular way to look at it, but the correct way IMO.

            I agree, the sun does play a roll, along with the landscape. Also, the poem is filled with back up info. Solves for a spot and backs up certain spots, incase destroyed I guess. Also times, but that’s me.

            I’ve got the medicine wheel also playing a role, but more of a backup role.

            In thinking about the stand the test of time thought, the sun would be a constant, along with that evil word, coordinates. Everything can change, but coordinates or the sun, lol, not so much. The only things that can weather the storm if you will. Makes sense f would use those things.

            A lot of sense in what you are saying, not saying I agree or disagree, just familiar. Have you figured why butterfly is a flutterby? Just asking….:)

  48. McB,
    I agree, “All in one” “All clues attached pointing to a specific spot”
    “As I have gone alone in there” Alone = all one

    I think that all of the clues describe the natural processes that took place to form the location where the TC is location.

  49. fundamental design,

    You said, “you have to pass that hurdle first to identify the correct wwwh and the next hurdles” and “I do believe it is a case of Fenn describing the actions or knowledge of someone(s) else in addition to himself in the first stanza”

    I agree with those two statements. FF has said, “it’s not who you are. It’s who they think you are.” Which means the same thing as, “to dirt I am Caliph but to a Caliph I am dirt” I don’t think this poem can be solved until we know who/what “I” is in this poem. Yes, it could be FF going alone to take the TC. But, I think there is more to it than that. I think that is the surface story. FF has talked about JD Salinger writing a book that he kept hidden away in a vault where no one could read it. I think FF’s own stories and the poem are the vault. The true meaning is the understory, the one that is the same story with different people and places and things. If we can understand who/what “I” represents (other than FF himself) then we can determine what point of view the poem is speaking from. If, I am right (and I believe I am), then “I”= water. So water is telling the story about how a specific area of the RMs were formed (the area where the TC is). If we think the poem is spoken from the point of view of FF, then we won’t understand. But, if we know the point of view and apply some geography as FF suggested, then we can make some sense out of. Like the backwards bicycle that has come up again recently. How can we follow what is being said if we don’t know the point of view? If water is telling the story of the formation of a specific place in the RMs then the story takes on new meaning. “it’s not who you are. It’s who they think you are.”

    IMO

    • I can’t get very excited by imagining that water is talking. But it might “float
      y’all’s boat”. Please try to relax.

      Ermagerd ! (Not to be confused with Erma BOMBeck)

      Eye just realized that maybe y’all want us to be masticating on the concept
      of “arc” (or Ark). Maybe this DOES relate to a floating boat! Am eye under-estimating the gravity of the situation? Have eye gone ballistic, orbit off more than eye can chew? Eye was having a blast, until eye realized that maybe trying to see tranquility wasn’t in the cards eye was dealt — witch apparently included the joker. IMO.

      • tighterfocus,
        Now that you mention it, my solve involves an arc. But its not a boat and it doesnt float. See scrapbook #15 for my boat. Its upside down and tied to the car. In this case, the car is a rock formation that has traveled through the ages.

    • Flutter –

      Many have talked about the voice being someone other than Fenn.
      Giovanni Maria de Agostini for example

      Lug

  50. tighterfocus,
    I can’t figure out why its so important to you that everyone relax. Unless, maybe you are dropping a clue. The word relax (according to google) comes from the Latin relaxare, from re- (expressing intensive force). That actually fits my solve quite nicely as it took an enormous amount of force to form the RMs and the land features that are in the geography there. Maybe I will go read up on those intensive forces.

  51. Does anyone know when Forrest named the TC Indulgence? Or has he said the name from the beginning?

    • I believe it was named Tarzan by f originally. I don’t think a date was given for the switch.

  52. re-send
    Searchers,

    Please,

    What have on pages 132 of the TTOTC book?

    About what does this page, or previous / posterior, say?

    Do have something photo or drawing?

    Thanks. : )

      • Então não preciso mais procurar nem ficar discutindo o poema.
        Eu sei onde está.
        Sei porque a Chase pode durar mil anos.
        Sei porque 200/500.
        Sei onde fica o arco-íris.
        Sei o que a última foto do livro quer dizer.
        Sei que, se o local do chest for revelado pelo descobridor, FF estará em apuros junto com o descobridor.
        Sei porque guardar o chest em um cofre para pensar.
        Sei que “não” está ao alcance dos olhos.
        Sei porque a pessoa vai ter um sorriso bom até o tesouro.
        Sei também porque um sorriso amargo depois de encontrá-lo.
        Sei porque o vento afeta o chest.
        Sei “onde” FF fi sozinho.
        Sei porque não é lugar de submissos.
        Sei porque o chest está molhado.
        Sei porque um criança precisará de “alguma” ajuda.
        Sei quem é o verdadeiro dono atual do baú, basta eu fazer um ligação, ou mandar um e-mail para os “pescadores”.
        Sei porque tem “tantas moedas” dentro do baú.
        Sei porque “nenhum americano” encontrou o baú “ainda”.
        Sei que se eu buscar o tesouro, nem FF, nem USA, nem o papa ficará sabendo.
        Sei que FF foi “espertinho” quando escondeu o tesouro.
        Quem pode reclamar o tesouro “nem imagina ter posse dele”.
        As iniciais do local são: No alto da ENR.

          • Estou muito decepcionado.
            Sei porque ele riu para si mesmo voltando para seu veículo de transporte, que eu duvido muito que seja um carro.
            Ele não riu por causa do tesouro deixado pra trás.
            Ele riu da “façanha” de colocar o baú “naquele local”.
            Sei que 200 feet é a soma da altura com a distância da base.
            Muitos que estavam a 500 feet estavam pescando.
            Sei que você pode ser preso se for pego recuperando o chest.
            Essa Chase é uma armadilha, se a pessoa não for muito, muito, muito, muito discreta ao recuperar o baú.
            Se é minha opinião? Talvez sim, talvez não, como diz FF: “eu escondi num bom lugar, muito secreto” – parafraseando.
            IMO – Um lugar mais “traiçoeiro” do que “secreto”.

          • McB,

            Perhaps you are correct, but I don’t believe FF thinks that way. He is clever and maybe a bit of a trickster, I agree, but not cruel in his manner.

            I think perhaps (IMO) you should toss your location, but keep with some of the ideas you have. Keep looking for information and understanding in your translations. Things are not always what they seem. There is more than one location that keeps with similar theme. Don’t give up.

            I have encountered some areas such as you speak of when botg……that tells me one of two things: Something changed after the chest was hidden or I have the wrong “spot”. Most likely is that I have the wrong spot. Remember, he thought of “everything”.

          • Exactly KK,

            FF hid the chest in the most “unlikely” of the sites, IMO.

            My understanding is not only about the poem, it is about “all” the Chase.

            Oh, I do not know how it was translated, but I do not think FF is cruel.
            Just “smart”. Quick thinking, insightful. – I do not know how to say it in English.

            The difference in language sometimes gives wrong or strange translations.

            : )

          • Remember, McB, ff has repeatedly said that the TC is not in a dangerous place.

          • Lady,

            It is not “dangerous” in the full sense of the word. It is not in a difficult place to reach, It is “treacherous” in the sense of putting the discoverer in trouble.

            IMO

          • Ah, more,

            Sei por quê o epitáfio é daquele jeito.
            Sei por quê “junto do por-do-sol”.
            Sei por quê “pensar, observar e planejar”.
            Sei por quê sua “igreja” fica à beira do rio, nas montanhas.
            Sei por quê a figura dele sentado em uma lápide.
            Sei por quê WWWH não é água!

            Só não sei “por quê” ele foi esconder o chest lá no…

            Não vi nada de especial… a não ser a paisagem, celestial…que dá vontade de chorar.

          • McB,

            Não pense em termos de beleza.

            pensar em termos de sentimental como especial

            acho que entendi “não água” mas está perto da água nas proximidades, sim?

          • KK,

            My God! I do not know how to respond without giving too much.

            Come on.

            My location has the following WWWHs that “converge” (take it in the canyon down) into a HoB.

            A river (only the name).
            A city (the original name).
            The name of a “specific” location.
            A canyon
            A Spanish (one word).
            A “church” (meaning).
            An idea (a thought about the place).
            A hobby.
            A very, very high “place”.

            Is there water nearby? Yes, quite a lot, lots of water, but it’s not WWWH.

            There are many waters in the poem !: “water high”, “bold”, “no place for meek”, “trove”, “can”, “tired”, “weak”, etc … And “all” are very close to the chest.

            Just my opinion, in my area of research.

            Hope this helps.

          • McB,

            We have differing opinions then, regarding the solution to the first few clues. I thought perhaps we were thinking along the same lines.

          • The list I passed to you is not of the clues!

            It’s just from my WWWH. It has nothing to do with the rest of the clues.

            I have “all that” in a “single” WWWH. A single general location (but, small).

            Then I have CD, TFTW, HoB, … just like everyone else.

            The main difference in my solution is that the clues are very, very, very close to each other. They are almost on top of each other.

            That’s why I use the term “All in one.”

  53. Ok since im botg now i can put my thoughts on the matter.. the what if riddle of the poem is imo that what if its tc in one place in other words the poem describes one place and not the many locations.

  54. Mr. Fenn has given a number of reasons for hiding the chest. But I wonder if hiding the chest was really a tribute to his brother Skippy. He mentions how his brother was the most intuitive person he ever knew, and that after they had an argument, in Wyoming and he got out of the car, and his brother came back for him, he said, “I loved him forever after that, and we never fought again”.

    • Knowlege:

      Break the word up, know lege.

      He thought of Skippy as almost a god. His hero so-to-say, a legend.

      Lege is short for legend, so may be good to “know lege” or know Skippy.

      For me it’s a little different. When I see “Skippy”, I think of “Y”. (if you “skip” ‘P’, leaves you with “Y”). Lege being short for legend, legend meaning ‘leg end’ or “foot”.
      With my number system, “Y” equals 7. So “Y” is 7′. It’s like the staff of Ra, Indiana Jones thinking. Stand up “Y”, casts a shadow a certain length.

      So, Knowlege to me is f referencing multiple things, centered around Skippy. Should have buried him standing up, “Y”, legend, his shadow when standing by a rock, and a couple of others.

      There are many references to his father also, so the poem, IMO, is a lot to do with the men in the family, but mostly Forrest. It’s the end of “his” rainbow that we are looking for…

      • Two people can keep a secret. I’m thinking it wasn’t his father, his father was straight laced, his brother was the wild card, the joker.

        • James, that line has to do with Skippy, IMO. It’s the basis of the shadow. Indiana Jones in the map room reference. Two people could actually be just one, Skippy, the “Y”, standing up, the shadow, one of them dead.

          To save face, if anybody goes the shadow route, the shadow is 80′ long. Just saying.

  55. What time is the gathering at the buffalo and is anyone there yet since the storm came in

  56. Something interesting I picked up on while reviewing Forrest’s Scrapbooks.

    Scrapbook #49 gives us a photo of FF’s spice cupboard apparently. He discusses spending time smelling the spices while Peggy is away from home. A few of the descriptions of the smell of the spices are entertaining. At one point, FF mentions that he has discovered 2 jars of cloves in the spice cupboard and he asks who needs two whole jars of cloves. He then reviews a few more jars and find another jar of cloves and asks, “Why 3 bottles of cloves?”

    So cloves are brought up repeatedly and I didn’t realize until I was looking up something else tonight that the word CLOVE IS A SYNONYM FOR CANYON. Hmmm. That is interesting

    I think there is something to the way the spice and seasonings jars are assembled all facing the same direction but crowded together. And, who in the world keeps their spices in a drawer? Maybe everyone but me. Anyhow; I’m sure there is a reason FF brought up cloves three times. And now that I know it is a synonym for canyon, I’m intriqued.

  57. I may have an advantage to understanding how Fenn thinks. My mom was born in Arkansas and raised in Texas. When I was giving her directions in her car the other day she asked me (without pointing or gesturing) “Do I turn this way or that way?”
    I knew exactly what she meant. I told her “This way” and she made a right turn.
    I think mom and Mr Fenn would get along great.

    • Here in Brazil, in the region that I live, we have these peculiarities of language.

      Even though the commercial part of the city is in the lowest part of the city, we say, “I’m ‘going up’ to the city.”

      If something is far to walk we say, “Go all life forward.”

      And gestures are part of the language.

      “For there >, or for there <?

      Stuff of local culture.

      Since I started the Chase, I've always been concerned with "figures of speech."

      I hope do not exist in the poem.

      • McB,
        Don’t worry about it.
        You are doing just fine.
        HA, In the melting pot of the USA, plus regional dialects, we are pretty much sort of polyglots anyway.
        Heck, just a couple of states away from Colorado, and still on the Arkansas River, I almost need a translator when I cross into Arkansas on Interstate 40.
        YES, there are a couple of dictiophiles on this site, but don’t worry about them.. THEIR
        Speedos are just a little tight, that’s all.

      • Como vi McB. The ‘Backward bicycle’ video tells us that up can mean down, left can mean right, and north can mean south. Fenn said the finder will be: “the one who can best adjust.”

        • I’ll go with Down can mean North, and Left can mean West, even if West is to your Right… even up to refer to down, only that is more a out there than in there…
          But I have a hard time thinking North to mean South, that is just wrong no matter how far you twist your head.

          • I’ll bite Mr S.
            If you can agree that “Down can mean North” then why is it such a ‘twist’ to imagine “Up can mean South”?
            Ever held a map upside down? 😉

          • Up can be south, But North can not be South.

            I’m being serious, because if we can use this type of thinking, Such as looking at a map, while standing south, and needing to go west because the poem said go left… “we” can go right and still be traveling west, line of thinking. IF that is the correct interpretation of left as west. and not just turn left as we walk south.

            But on any map [unless the map was manipulated with, like the bike] west is always going to be west… BUT, ‘right’ can be ‘left’ – west, if we are traveling south in a search.

            So for example, we are going into a canyon traveling South… the poem may indicate we go left. Normally a left turn would take you eastwards… but if left can be determined to be west on a map… left is always west… be that map it upside down, or the direction we are point in at the time. In this case it was south in travel, and turn “left” would mean, turn ‘right’ to us, because west is always left on a map.

            But, “Up” can mean “South”, or “Down” to mean “North”, in the same scenario above.

            You said “north can mean south”

            But North will always be “North” and can’t not be “South”… It can be Up, down, right and left, sure!
            ~ But …no matter how you flip that map… you need North to be a true point always… It’s the fundamental law of a map no matter how you look at that map.

            The reason I’m being anal about his… a map can not be like the backwards bike… a map can not be manipulated or it fails to be a map…

            Interpretation of up down right left is only an understanding of your position on a map to the cation of following the clues on a map.

            So again, If you are walking south and the poem instructs you to go left, while following the map… left is west. Not a left turn. because north “must be behind you” on a map… it can not be south on a map.

          • Minor exception example: the CA county of Del Norte is south of Oregon. 😉

          • randawg and Seeker,
            I disagree about the word down. It is NOT directional at all IMO

          • Have it your way Mr S. “Down can mean North”.
            Sorry but as usual you have missed the point.

          • I think the example of the bicycle is just telling us that we have to learn to be flexible in our thinking, to “adjust” to something we do not know or are accustomed to.

            Learn to think “without” preconceived ideas.

            Do you want a better example than “I” in that sense? A Brazilian? A people known for its simplicity. With a “totally” different culture.

            I do not know the language, the culture, the history, the geography, the customs, the laws, I am thousands of miles away… but, even against “all” expectations, “here” I am! Trying to solve, with you all, a puzzle that can last hundreds of years!

            With a complete solution, feasible and according to Chase.

            I think that’s it! Re-learn to think, to see with other eyes. Read between the lines.

          • Seeker, I don’t mean to be derailing, but in my research I’ve found that “nigh” means to the left WHEN FACING NORTH. So, if you’re traveling South, and want to head “ever” nigh, or are looking for draws on the nigh side, you’ll actually turn West (to the right), not East.

            Is that what this left-can-mean-right thing is about?

          • Rangdawg ~’Have it your way Mr S. “Down can mean North”.
            Sorry but as usual you have missed the point.’

            Sure, when reading a map and “following directions”, “Down” can be in a Northward direction.
            “Down” can be westward, eastward or southward

            But you said. ‘North can mean South’
            It can’t be.
            To read a map, you need to compass in North… right? Then point the top of the map in that direction [north] … Not S or E or W.

            However if you’re traveling south and holding the map, while following directions given as “down” “up” “Left” “Right” Nigh, Far etc.
            and told in the directions to go “left”… which on a map is west… “you” turn “right” to go west/left. because a map is designed with north at the top of the map.
            So, “South can not be North” in following directions on a map.

            The “backwards Bike video” can’t work with a map, because North is always North and never South or east or west looking on a map… even one that is held upside down.
            Ya just broke the fundamental law of using a map… Might want to toss that hand held GPS in the trash as well, IF that is how you’re following a map.

            Do you really think a pilot, trained in aviation, flown all over the world, an avid outdoorsman, who would needed to rely on how maps work, who tells all to look at map, tell us to bring a GSP to know where you are and where you are going… is going to change how to read a map, for the challenge?

            You can not “re-adjust” the reading of a map.

    • Whew, what a relief. I feel like a great load has been lifted from my shoulders,
      and now I can sleep well tonight.

  58. Yup…JDA should be checking back in fairly soon with the update to the ah ha ha moment.

  59. Charlie,
    I believe that a butterfly is a flutterby because the flutter is the process by which the butterfly gets around. Also; a butterfly flutters quickly by and is gone. Actions and processes are important in this poem IMO. And, time moves quickly. We are here and then we are not. IMO

    • True… and if his name is Flutter and his brothers name is Butter you can say ” Butters brother Flutter,
      Fluttered by Butter, only to mutter, Fly Butter Fly Butter Fly!!” 🙂 ok that was corney… Hope everyone has fun at the meet ups this weekend!!! Wish I could have made it this year but life made other plans for me… 🙂

  60. “Forrest, What’s the minimum number of clues that we need to solve to find the treasure, assuming that we follow the clues in order?” ~Serge Teteblanche

    “Just one Serge, the last one.” f

    To me this implies that all the information to solve the poem (or at least enough info) is in the last clue (whatever you perceive the last clue to be). So if one has discerned the last clue correctly, this could be used as a measure of accuracy in the total solution. So if you can’t get to your solve location with only the information provided by the last clue, perhaps the solve should be reconsidered.

    What are your thoughts.

    • I like that thought
      “…,,Measure of accuracy in the total solution”
      Clearly Clueless

      • My solve location is the last clue. You follow them in order on the map until you get to the final point.

        • Umm…..I would think that every searchers solve would be at the location of the last clue……I think *most of us go “in order” along a map or path to our solve from one point to the next.

          It seems we may have a difference of opinion or understanding. I think solving this requires more information than connecting the dots on a map. So my point is, given that ATF, that if you have gauged the last clue correctly, the information in the last clue alone should be enough on its own to direct a person to the correct location of the TC. It is a good way to double check your solve.

          • KK,
            I’m trying to understand what you mean by ‘Information’ in the last clue…
            The way I’m reading your post is; once you are at the last clue, the other clue will not assist any more in locating the chest… the last clue ‘alone’ does that.

            So what is it about the last clue that provides “information”?
            Is it a pointer?
            A marker?
            Should there be an inscription?
            Is there an information booth?
            Is the information involving the last clue truly a stand lone info?
            Another words… you follow the clue on a map at home that brings you to the last clue. But you can’t “solve” anything at home. Because the last clue is the only clue that gives up the chest.

            IF so, isn’t that redundantly obvious?
            Example; To remove a wheel and tire from a vehicle you need to remove 5 lugnuts, but all you really need to do it remove the last lugnut.
            Only that can not be done without removing the other last lugnut or the other last one before it…

            Your comment sounds like a revolving wheel. You can’t know which is the last lugnut until you remove the others.
            So in theory… what would tell me which lugnut is the last one?
            The answer is… all the others… you can’t finish the job by ‘only removing the last lug’ even if you know it’s the last lugnut.
            [ that thought is what I get when I read; “there’s no other way” the clue must be followed in order.]

            There is process in doing it… the task. Because fenn basically said, he had to do the task.. followed the clues.
            The last lugnut [ metaphorically ] says … here’s you tire and rim, but that is obvious, right?

          • Seeker,

            What I am saying is that the last clue holds enough information to stand alone from the poem.

            He said two things:
            “a physical presence is need to complete the solve,
            GE can’t help with the last clue.”

            So yes, we have to be “BOTG” in order to “complete” the solve, because one has to be physically at the location to retrieve the TC and “fully” solve the poem.

            “GE” can’t help with the last clue”. He never said that Google and research could not help with the last clue, only that you won’t find it on GE.

            So I *think that the last clue, whatever a person *thinks it is, should hold enough information to it alone could directly take a person to the TC.

            If the last clue is: “If you are brave and in the wood, I give you title to the gold”, then that line should have a specific “location” within it.

            Let’s say hypothetically, there is a place called “Indian Son Cypress Park”, and throughout the park there are sculptures. One is a sculpture of the sun.

            So assuming our last clue is: “If you are brave and in the wood, I give you the title to the gold.”

            There is enough information in that line to get you to the exact location, stand alone.

            If you are an Indian in the wood, I give you title to the gold. And the chest is at the Sun sculpture.

    • “If youve been wise and found the blaze” is the last clue. Find the blaze and you find the chest IMO.

    • Regardless of the fact that the final clue is the one that leads you to the TC, how are you going to figure out where that final clue is if you don’t follow the other clues? IMO all of the clues that precede the final clue lead up to knowing where the final clue takes you.

      What amazes me is all the people who are trying to short-cut the following of the poem.

      There are no short-cuts (FF)

      • It isn’t a shortcut, Flutterby. It is a “check yourself”.

        I agree, there are no shortcuts. I am ONLY stating that one way to “check” your solution to see if it holds water is to see if your solution to the last clue holds enough information as a stand alone, to get you to your location, based on FF ATF comment regarding only needing the last clue to solve the poem.

        • The last clue may or may not be a stand alone clue. FF has previously said that all of the clues must be followed in order. Of course it is the last clue that will lead to the TC but without the previous clues, you won’t know where you need to be to follow the last clue. I certainly would not base my solve on a very ambiguous question with an even more ambiguous answer.

    • KK ~ To me this implies that **all the information to solve the poem** (or at least enough info) **is in the last clue **(whatever you perceive the last clue to be).

      fenn answered a Q&A about distance from the blaze to the chest stating; If you can find the blaze, the answer [ distance ] to the chest will be obvious. That kinda says, the blaze in clue #9

      Fenn also stated;
      ~I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly. f

      ~I mean, there’s people driving down the street looking for a blaze, because that’s one of the clues, but you can’t start in the middle of the poem and find the treasure, I don’t think, I mean, it would be a miracle if someone did.

      ~The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowledge. [later saying, he himself followed the clues when he hid the chest]

      You also said ~’So if you can’t get to your solve location **with only the information provided by the last clue,** perhaps the solve should be reconsidered.

      If the blaze is the last clue… what information does it have, to not only solve where the chest is from its point… But how to get to it, [ the blaze or any theory of the last clue] to start with? and by pass all the others.

      I’m not seeing what you’re seeing reading fenn’s answer to serge’s question.
      Serge’s question stated, “assuming that we follow the clues in order” Which says the clues were followed in order… the obvious answer to; the minimum number would be one clue, the last clue.

      The question was horribly written. It basically said; all the clues were followed… which clue will be most useful in actually finding the treasure? Of course the last one. but how do you get there without all the other clues?

      • Seeker,

        I’m glad I’m not the only one that thinks all the clues must be followed

        Also glad you brought up this quote, “~The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowledge.” (FF)

        I don’t think that quote is saying, “As far as I know, there is no other way than to follow the clues to reach the TC”. I think the quote is saying that “In order to get the knowledge FF has, we must follow the clues” I think we are supposed to gain knowledge as we follow the clues, so that we learn the “answers I already know”.

        • The information you find on the WWWH is +/- the same as the information you find in “blaze”. All in one place.

          So if you have this information you will go straight to the chest.

          How I know? Thinking, analyzing, looking at a map, and finding the “WWWH”…”blaze”.

          As FF said, “What took me so long?” “When people know where chest is, they’ll be surprised.” “Your best revenge will be me wearing the bracelet.” “Urgency is not a good plan for fallow.”

          But there is a problem.

          The solution is much easier than recovery. So that’s just an opinion, and nothing more. ; )

      • Seeker, I think another way to understand kk’s view is to say if solving all the clues isn’t enough to get a searcher to the correct location of the tc then something’s wrong. Seems obvious, but I think we’ve seen various approaches from some searchers where solving the clues isn’t enough to find the tc and insist there’s more work to do.

        • Fund,
          That I can follow [ understand ]
          My mind wasn’t wrapping around what KK meant by ‘information” of the last clue. It sound like that is all that is really needed… the last clues info. As you said, “seems obvious”… because it is also a clue.
          My example with the lugnuts, is to say. Even if we know the last clue reference, does that clue stand alone? And like the lugnuts… you can’t simply use that last nut alone to get the tire off. The same premise seems to involved with the poem…

          If fenn had hypothetically said… he went directly to the last clue to hide the chest… I’d be fine with KK, idea [ But like I said, I didn’t understand what she meant by ‘information of the last clue only’]
          Only fenn [ after 8 years of being asked about; did he follow the clues or did he take a shorter route ] stated; he followed the clues when he hid the chest [ leaving semantic excuse aside ] IF he had to follow the clues as we are told to… there has to be a good reason that makes the comment ‘There is no other way’ to be factual Otherwise, we’ll be pulling on that tire and wheel all day long with the “last” lugnut off… but the other lugs will prevent an actual require outcome. retrieving the metaphorical tire [ chest ].

          My thought is; are we to use all the clues [ as you say, more work ] or are the clues nothing more than a nice easy path to walk through from point to point. The second method doesn’t answer a lot of questions… like why would we need to be ‘precise’.. why would fenn follow his own clues.. why would [assuming-normal movements of the RM’s ] have an impact on the clues if all we need to do is walk right to the last clue and it as the “information” alone.

          I Kinda get what KK was implying and as you explained. But it still doesn’t pass the sniff test of ‘there is not other way, the clues must be followed in order, precisely to lead us to the chest’… apparently that now means physically following all the clues. And we have been told, if you can’t find the chest, start back at the first clue. SO, I can see how or what KK meant by “information of the last clue is all that is needed… even in a check and balance line of thought.

          I would think if all the clues were not ‘done’ / worked out properly / used, as expected… you’ll never find the last clue… even if you know it’s a lugnut.

      • I agree the question isn’t worded ideally. But I don’t think very many people are listening to what I am saying.

        I am NOT saying you don’t have to solve for the prior clues. I am not saying this is a shortcut.

        You asked if this wouldn’t be “redundant”. Having a way to check your location before you go isn’t redundancy. Running around in circles on the ground is.

        I am only saying that once you have solved ALL your clues, the very last clue in your solve (whatever you think it is) should contain ALL the information a person needs to get to the exact location of the TC. This is how one can “go confidently” to the location.
        There is a “checks and balances” in the last clue. Of course the poem requires a “physical presence” on the ground in order to complete the solve. No one (to my knowledge) can retrieve the chest without being there, therefore completing the poem. But one CAN solve the last clue from home. GE is very different from GOOGLE.

        And no, it isn’t going to be State, City, Road, Mile Marker kind of answer. But it should hold enough information to get you to the exact location. Therefore, if whatever your answer is to your last clue isn’t enough to get you to the chest on its own, perhaps you should reconsider your solve. (IMO)

        • Seeker,

          “If the blaze is the last clue… what information does it have, to not only solve where the chest is from its point… But how to get to it, [ the blaze or any theory of the last clue] to start with? and by pass all the others.”

          Well that depends on how you are going about your solve. If you are only looking only for points on a map, then perhaps there wouldn’t be enough information within that to stand alone. But if one is using the history of the area, the names of local geological land marks, features, roads, rivers, etc., then it would stand to reason that there could be enough information in the last clue to get a person to the exact location.

          Here is my thought on the blaze being the last clue. The sentence is, “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down your quest to cease.”

          It would stand to reason that if one understands what the blaze is, that the blaze is a specific point of reference. “IT” in its name, may provide enough information to get a person to a specific place within the 4 state search area.

          It is the “been wise” that holds is a big key. It implies something we already know or understand. If one can decipher the “look quickly down your quest to cease” correctly, then one would know the distance to the treasure and where it is located.

          • KK,

            Look…down…”your quest”…

            In poem, no in blaze.

            Poem = Precision and accuracy.

            No more clues or hints out there.

            It’s “all” in the poem. Follow “exactly” poem.

            Find blaze, follow the poem instructions, retriev the chest.

            ; )

          • McB,

            I’ve got it figured, at least in my own way and IMO

            I just need to get back and look. If I can’t, I will find a partner who can put botg and confide my location to them. Given my solve, I don’t think anyone would deny that opportunity. 🙂

  61. I tried watching Toby’s recent book signing video this morning. I only made it a few minutes in. I became uncomfortable watching folks show him pictures and asking questions about their locations…I stopped when the fellow said he got caught by park rangers digging. Forrest said you’re not supposed to dig where you’re not supposed to. Man oh man ….I am amazed.

        • As a newbie, it’s sort of a problem, what has been said. Variously, and paraphrasing “it could be buried,” and “metal detector will help if you’re in right spot,” have been said. As far as I can tell, this is the first time he has said where not to dig. Of course people should know the regs, and presume Forrest followed the regs, but we must also presume it might be buried. What else has been said?

          • CRM,

            When I put botg, I follow the regulations if I am on land owned by the government you can call a Park or Ranger office to find out specifics. I

            f I am not sure who the land belongs to, I operate with the idea that if I don’t have consent, I don’t dig or detect. One place I was searching I called ahead and was told I could use a metal detector, but I could not dig deeper than the first 2 inches of top soil.

            I agree with McB, that hidden is not the same as buried. I think if you have a metal detector, take it just in case, but follow the rules. I believe some places you can’t even carry a metal detector on your person without being fined or kicked out.

          • And yet a direct quote : “I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.”

            The only way these statements are all compatible is that the “lines cross” in a general area, and the treasure or a marker is highly visible, or the poem takes you to a very unique spot you would find a detector would help. Actually, now that I think of it, only the latter would be true, because if it’s highly visible, a detector won’t help.

          • Hidden is not the same as buried, but I believe buried is a subset of hidden, and Forrest has repeatedly said it could be buried.

          • In my opinion, if someone is 12ft from the chest, it is because they “already” know where it is.

            It is not a matter of being visible or not.

            It means that: OR you can not see it without knowing it is there, OR it is not viable to be at that distance without a reason, OR is in a place where: Either you “enter” it at once, OR you “leaves” him at once (there is no middle ground).

            In my solution there is no middle ground, just “enter” and “see” who knows what are looking for. Anyone else would go 20ft without “never to imagining” that has a treasure well there.

          • McB,

            I agree. Searchers have no reason to be in area, unless they know the treasure is there. So if you’re within 12 feet, it’s because the poem put you there ( only the poem is needed). In this case, it is most likely buried or hidden so none of the many people within 200/500′ would stumble upon. It may even be buried out of detector range (the way he buried bronze bells could be a hint). A detector would still be useful if you dug down a little.

          • CRM114: “Technology is not going to help you find that treasure chest.” Certainly a metal detector qualifies?

          • I imagine that, over time, nature might help conceal the chest.

            Another idea:

            The hidden chest “down” of a stone slab. Or a lot of stones.
             
            It is very logical that a metal detector could be useful.

          • Zaphod,

            Except he also said a metal detector would be helpful if you’re in the right spot. I think both can be true. There is no way you can find it with a metal detector – you have to solve the poem. But once you solve (find) it, a metal detector may save you time digging. The more I think about this, the more I think its buried in a specific spot

          • McB,

            If it’s in a forest, trees could eventually fall on it. A marmot who chooses to burrow next to it might bury it in a mound that will grow over. Alternatively, if under a log, that log could rot away.

            I think burying / sepulcher is the safest way to protect the chest and keep it from being stumbled upon.

          • McB, I am more concerned with thinking like Forrest than worrying about nature. I am convinced that if your solve does not result in a precise location, it’s not worth going there unless you want a vacation. Further, I am convinced it is buried at that precise location, and hopefully it’s legal to dig. It’s the only way to protect it from falling trees, fire, stumbling upon, satellites, drones, etc. Bring a shovel.

    • “Forrest said you’re not supposed to dig where you’re not supposed to.”
      Could you please post the source of this comment?

        • Thanks I just watched the video. An odd comment as Mr Fenn is known for ignoring what forest rangers tell him to do.

          • Don’t you just love his comments 🙂

            “You’re not supposed to dig where you’re not supposed to.”

            Does that imply you should only dig where you are supposed to- at the site of the treasure?

            Lol, he keeps me in stitches and circles.

          • With the exception of San Lazaro he has spent most of his life digging for artifacts where he was told he’s not supposed to.

          • Another “strange” comment from FF, a Maverick.

            My conspiracy theories are increasing in size.

            Someone “nudged” the chest.

            Who was it?

          • McB,

            Where do you get the “nudged” comment from? I don’t think I’ve seen that.

  62. Skippy and the airplane on Hebgen lake, and the pilot telling them if they couldn’t get airborn in fifteen miles of runway, they should just give up. The longest strech of Hebgen lake is only 7-8 miles. 15 miles could be a clue, I found a place where that distance fits with other coincidental things.

  63. We are in treacherous waters now that it is officially summer given the ff gut feeling. Has anyone heard from GCG, JDA or anyone else hot on the trail?

    • GCG was commenting somewhere but without a real update, JDA has BOTG atm and I will be back in August as you know, my friend! What about you? 🙂

    • morecowbell…there are no treacherous waters to worry about. I do not believe anyone is going to find the treasure any time soon.

        • Does that jive with ” If you know precisely where it is you can probably retrieve it in any weather”?

          • I’m sure you probably could but I’m not going to. August through October I’m sure it’s easy, just a lot more difficult outside of that window due to snow melt

        • I wish you well…truly. That is not a bad thing to have thoughts about…finding it. There is only one person that will actually find Fenn’s treasure…it is a moment that will define that person forever. It will be the right person…no doubts.

  64. Let it be known:

    “All the cool kids wear fanny packs.” – Shiloh, Collected Works, 6/23/2018

    • Were you the Jeremy ff asked was the one who was sending him all the emails?

  65. Well, back again – empty handed. Had a GREAT hunt, but could not get my GPS to match my numbers from Google Earth. A few other stupid things, but GREAT progress anyway.

    Went to the “Function at the Junction” in West Yellowstone – was able to now put faces to a couple of maned – Met a GREAT bunch of searchers. WHAT FUN!!!

    Not sure if I deserve a serving of humble pie and crow or not – maybe a small serving anyway 🙂

    Good luck to all of the searchers out there and TRY and STAY SAFE – JDA

    • Hey jda im back home in ND wish i could have made it to the function. But I’ll email u my run down.. it was nice to be back in yellowstone after many yrs.

          • Hi JDA,

            Glad you got back safe my friend, do you think your gonna carry on in the same area with the same solve or are you going back to square 1?

          • Hi butch;

            Thanks – It is nice to be back, even if empty handed.

            Nope, I am a glutton for punishment. Trip #19 will be back to the same general area – Am getting it in “Tighter Focus”. Maybe #19 will be the final one – JDA

          • Thanks Butch. Maybe some day I will see the end of the trail, but I hope to see the end of the rainbow first 🙂 JDA

    • Welcome back JDA. Are you ready to share your solution with the community or is a 19th trip in order?

        • Assuming you’re at a lower elevation since you went out on Memorial Day. Are you in Fitzpatrick or Shoshone or just braver than I am at another much higher elevation?

    • JDA,

      Glad you are home safe and sound, that your hunt was great and progress was made! Meeting fellow searches must have been a lot of fun for many.

      I don’t have any humble pie or crow left for you, I keep having to eat it all 🙂

      • Yes, meeting about twenty fellow searchers was a lot of fun. I am convinced that we are ALL a bit crazy, but it sure was fun being among MY KIND!!! – JDA

    • I’m glad to hear you had a great time JDA, I wish I could have been there. I’m sure the memories of meeting fellow searchers will be etched in your mind for a very long time. Maybe I’ll catch ya on the trail sometime….. until next time… see ya buddy….

      • Sorry you could not make it Focused. I sure would have liked to meet you – I keep lookin’ on the trails – JDA

    • Hello JDA,

      It was a pleasure meeting you sir and the other chasers as well. We will be back home tomorrow. We headed south out of Yellowstone. The Tetons was fantastic and beautiful to see. Now I will be back next year for sure.

  66. I have read all 3 memoirs and was under the impression Too Far to Walk contained no hints. After looking at the picture on the front cover of the book on Dals site I do believe FF has offered up the exact same subtle hint twice, only more brazen in Once Upon a While. I look forward to sharing it.

    • Eric

      Do you see the cover as a Map? That is how I see it anyway. Opinion

      Franklin

    • Dal [ at fenn’s request ] took the pic on the Madison river… later, the shadow image was added. Who did the work adding the shadow…I’m not sure, or can’t remember. [ this cover has been chatted about before ]
      So, I’m curious Eric, what you see that appears to be a hint?

      • Did he select it from more than one photo? I see something there that relates to another story. I’ll explain later

  67. BTW, I posted a short clip from the Book Signing video where Forrest answers the question of where Skippy is buried so that you don’t have to watch the whole video. You should go to AGK and watch the whole section around 50 minutes in on part one because it is cool listening to Forrest talk about his old neighborhood.

    Here is the 8 second clip:
    https://www.facebook.com/troy.barlow.5/videos/1973031569387855/

  68. Welcome back JDA, emptiness of the hands seems to be the norm for all that have gone out searching. Maybe better luck next time.

    In the last couple of day’s posts there has been discussions about ATF quotes and Q&A’s in order to find the treasure. Basically IMO too many searchers are hanging heavily on those things and I’ve read most of all that has been made. What I find interesting there isn’t much [doesn’t mean all] information that will help in finding the treasure. The cheat sheet here at the hoD is extremely useful in that they say where not to search and what not to do.

    Hypothetical meanings of words in the poem such as, I, it, meek and tarry scant made by searchers IMO is misleading. Remember FF did say the poem is straight forward and in plain English [paraphrased], yet again those words are being contorted which creates many rabbit holes that are empty. Even if one uses those words correctly does not mean they have the correct area after or before wwwh. I firmly believe those that have figured out where wwh and the hoB did not understand the rest of the words and couldn’t find the blaze.

    Without physically knowing the area within the search perimeters, even knowing where to start, some of the poem’s words will not help, even from GE. That has been evident with those searchers that have walked right on by within 200 feet and did not know the blaze.

    When FF said he followed the poem when hiding the treasure, IMO does not mean he physically went to each clue, but did follow some of the clues in the end to hide the treasure. I believe for the most part he followed the clues in his mind and more than likely he is familiar with the area and didn’t need to visit each clue.

    My line of thinking is this, I physically visited my search area before figuring out what is my solution and based on the premise that I felt I had wwwh. With out the visit I honestly can say I would have never understood what the poem is saying. I’m just saying this helped me.

    I truly believe all of the poem can be solved down to the point of the hiding place, in theory using a map, after all searchers go by a theory. Of course the poem can’t be completely solved until the chest is in hands. I struggled a lot with below the hoB even though I felt I knew what the hoB is. The big question was how far below. The other that, I struggled with was the Blaze, this alone by far took quite awhile to figure out then the rest was very easy.

    There has been many discussions on distances from one clue to the other. I believe distances shouldn’t matter other than NFBTFTW, even then one doesn’t know the true distance until it is figured out, then one can measure. In fact all of the distances aren’t apparent until one has figured out what the poem is saying. It’s like FF saying if you *know* the hoB why worry about where wwh, this I believe applies to distances as well.

    The point I am trying to make is that ATFs and Q&A’s aren’t going to lead to a solution and more full attention needs to be made with the poem and a map alone. Yes you need the book because it has the poem and very subtle unintended hints. If I reread the book, providing I have a correct solve, I might be able to find subtle hints, as of yet I haven’t found any, Even though I was hoping too. The book TFTW is important because it has a map. Too me the map clearly tells where not to search outside of the RMs and what states are included, as for the rest IMO there is no further help with the map.

    Even though I feel I have a correct solve and the correct starting point as many others do. The poem will not work out at all if four things don’t happen, wwwh, hoB, blaze and the wrong map. I feel if there is any doubts about anything within any solution it more than likely will be a failure. If you are very confident it still doesn’t fully mean that you are correct.

    Interpretations of words and their meanings is very different from one person to the other. This alone I believe creates a quagmire and this also applies with comments from FF. Forrest has said a couple of times to Simplify which I firmly believe will help greatly, but yet again interpretations come into play. It’s a no wonder the poem may take a 100 or 1,000 of years to solve. But never the less IMO the poem is straight forward and in plain English.

    I’M SO CONFUSED, BUT THEN AGAIN MAYBE NOT! 🙁

      • dejoka;

        I have JCM’s Chasing Words by topic and in chronological order. If I search on the word search 107 entries come up – all relating in one way of another to Forrest saying that a “search” is necessary to finding Indulgence. Without a search, how else can one expect to find a hidden treasure? Just askin’ – JDA

    • Thanks CharlieM;

      Good luck to you when you venture out – Hope you can get your “4” workin’ for ya’ – JDA

      • JDA, & Ken,

        Thanks JDA and Ken, I can’t determine as of now when that will be, at this depends when the road will be open. Hopefully it will be open before the search season ends. I sure in the heck hope nobody retrieves the chest until then, but they can’t visit under the current circumstances.

  69. CRM114,

    You said, “f it’s in a forest, trees could eventually fall on it. A marmot who chooses to burrow next to it might bury it in a mound that will grow over. Alternatively, if under a log, that log could rot away.”

    IMO the TC is placed in an opening in a rock formation. No animal or weather will bother it there. It can sit for a thousand years.

    IMO

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