Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Fifty Eight

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Thanks…

 

dal…

774 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Fifty Eight

  1. Exactly CRM,

    Precision. Accuracy. Focus. No distractions. I see this in the poem.

    Ambiguity. Inaccuracy. Generalities. Focus shifts. I see this in most of the ATFs.

    Now a very, very simple question:

    Why have these ATFs multiplied so much after 2012?

    Why “another book”? (TFTW) – And another? (OUAW)

    I’m very critical in Chase’s context. I have no focus on words, but on ideas and motivations through words and phrases.

    My focus is strict only on the poem. In the rest I use a kaleidoscope that gives me several ways to see the same idea.

    Obsessiveness in words and phrases from ATFs is leading the searchers at errors for 8 years. Except for the “first two years” when “many” were a few feet from the chest.

    Have these mistakes, in the last 6 years, not seem to reveal something rather obvious?

    The Chase is: TTOTC + poem + map. Only this. Just this. Nothing more, and final point.

    • McB,

      We mostly agree, poem, map, internet is all you need. I think TTOTC should confirm your solution via hints. However, the ATFs are useful for confirmation as well. I won’t search if it’s not within 500 feet of where people would be expected to walk frequently, for instance. This almost has to mean a trail, river people would fish or road has to be within 500 feet. I also would rule out anyplace you can’t see mountains, and smell sagebrush and pine. I think this actually rules out thick forest areas because usually there is no sage near or mountains visible.

      I have not read the other books.

  2. Hm. Wasn’t the chase supposed to be over today? Anyone heard from Travis Brown?

    • The days not over yet, LadyV. It’s not easy carrying 9 bear sprays, metal detector, shovel and pickaxe, a sandwich and a flashlight, maps, the book, extra socks and a 42lbs chest. Give’em a couple more hours

    • Chase isn’t going to be ended by Travis Brown or anyone else this month. Kettle Corn notwithstanding. 😉

      • Spoken like someone who has physical evidence to support their statement. IMO.

      • Zap,

        Do you have a glass ball or can you see the future? How about next month, will it not be found or found then? I personally don’t think Kettle Corn will find it. Only because I think he’s in the wrong area. Ooops, that dang glass ball fell off its stand again. 🙂

      • CharlieM: no crystal ball required, just 8 years of statistical evidence, and the personal desire to bring overly boastful searchers down to earth.

        No one will claim my $100 bill nailed to the tree. That challenge was set to expire on Sunday. Weeks ago I extended it to July 4th to accommodate a searcher who couldn’t get out before July 1st. Doesn’t matter; my Benjamin is safe.

        The initial Mountain Men who missed Forrest’s bill in TFTW were a lot closer to the mark than any of the loudmouths that were posting here at the beginning of June. Travis Brown was perhaps the most annoyingly and prolifically confident; he deserves a double-helping of Corvus Crispy. His silence since his predicted chest recovery date of June 24th tells you everything you need to know.

    • I wish I could of stopped him Lady V, he is nowhere near it, he said he was heading west of Yellowstone, but he should be back by now!

    • If Travis is still reading the blog, I recommend light Summertime preparation of your crow. Some suggestions:
      Crispy Crow Strips with Salad or you might try Crow Watermelon Tacos.
      🙂

    • Hope he’s ok and that he left someone know his location area on a just in case situation

  3. Flutterby,

    You said in other thread ” IMO the TC is placed in an opening in a rock formation. No animal or weather will bother it there. It can sit for a thousand years.”

    Forrest must also protect it from being stumbled upon for 1000 years, within 200/500 feet of a trail or even road lots of people have been on. I’ve roamed the Rockies for a number of years and am constantly surprised at signs of recent human activity well away from human trails. You can hunt, cut Christmas trees, dig up trees for transplanting, an relieve your human needs in national forests/ BLM, all well off trail.

    To keep all this activity from finding it, it has to be buried, imo.

    • I don’t think he buried it which is why he stated to bring a flashlight. It’s somewhere semi-dark and secluded.

      • I’m thoroughly entertained by the people who take FF’s comments about bringing a flashlight and a sandwich so literally. I could not be the only one that recognizes these things as clues instead of instructions could I?

        • Flutter –

          He also never said it.
          If you can produce the original Fenn quote I would love to see it.

          • That is really funny. I’ve heard it so many times that I never even questiond it. Thanks Lugnutz

        • SB 167 says the following:

          “– People have become fixated on you telling them to bring a sandwich and a flashlight. Are they just wasting their time focusing on these things as clues?
          FF: They certainly are not clues.” So, in a round-about way he confirms the sandwich and flashlight idea, but says they are not clues. – And that may be a hint 🙂 – JDA

          • We are taking flashlights AND sandwiches and cokes, well, water too. Don’t wanna fall short when we might can see the trove at the end of the tunnel.
            🙂

          • JDA,
            FF has told us that there are nine clues in the poem and the book, TTOTC has “hints” if you can recognize them. So it seems possible to me that the statement “They certainly are not clues” does not rule out that they are hints. Nevertheless, Lugnutz has pointed out that the statement was never even spoken about the sandwich and the flashlight.

          • Flutterby – That is not entirely true – as I pointed out in SB 167 – Just sayin’ – JDA

      • He said: “I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.”

        Think about this carefully. Option A: Poem leads to a general area, let’s say an acre or two for sake of argument. Are you guaranteed to find it if you wander within 12 feet? How about if it is also protected from being stumbled upon for 1000 years? Option B: Poem leads to 12′ by 12′ area but is buried. No one is going to stumble upon. Are you guaranteed to find it?

        • CRM,

          I think fenn is saying for anyone [ to mean a searcher, not a casual passer by ] to get within 12′ and not find it… they would of had to complete the one thing he tells us we should be wise about… Finding The blaze
          ~ Add fenn’s Q&A about distance from the blaze to the chest; ~ IF you can find the blaze the [distance] answer to the your question will be obvious.

          Well, to be perfectly honest… it doesn’t matter if it’s buried, hidden, up a tree, in a car, next to a piece of tire with crap glued to it, below Molly Brown’s house, hidden with a bronze bell, guarded but an alien dragon egg, or even up that famous creek… Find the dang blaze and you’ll have all your questions answered.

          I mean.. how much more straighter does he need to be, to be straightforwards.

          • Seeker,

            He doesn’t need to be any more straightforward, because people aren’t getting it.

            Really THINK about the question that was asked, and don’t make assumptions. FF counts on that.

            ….brrr, is it cold in here?

          • I believe I have found the blaze, and the distance is obvious, but inexact. The blaze is not the last clue.

            All I can say is I have searched for days and thought about my many experiences and other human signs I’ve stumbled upon in the Rockies and concluded the chest cannot be in the open, no matter how remote the area. This is especially true if people have been within 200 feet and did not know it. They were sightseeing, fishing or simply passing by. For every searcher that Fenn knows of, there has to be at least 1000 more searchers and mostly non-searchers that have taken that same path in 8 years. Multiply that by Fenns’ 1000 years. What if one of those people have to poop? They wander 200 feet off the path, and stumble upon the chest? There is no way Forrest takes that chance.

            Try this thought exercise: given all you know, how big of an area does the poem point to? A single state? A county? A square mile? An acre? 12 feet by 12 feet? 10 inches by 10 inches? How big of an area, exactly, are we expected to search?

          • Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey

            Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help?f

            KK, I gave my thoughts… what are yours?
            And if you would like… I can add other ATF’s that seem relevant to my post, if you like… I was just trying to save time and space.
            A short example is; you can’t drive down the road looking for the blaze comment.
            Why not HLnWH? or something else… if we read ATF’s as a whole [ in regards to the blaze ]
            fenn has been consistent with the importance of the blaze to the chest [ same as in the poem ]
            The same consistency he has about the first clue, nail it or fail it.

            I would like to know what you thing that comment is saying?

          • Agreed on the the short search area being in front of you when at the blaze, however, i’m of the thinking there’s more going on with them tarry scants when you be marvel gazing downward. Been thru the ringer with time, math, flat rocks and undersized cowboy ropes tryin to latch onto the magic scant spot. Humdinger of a puzzle piece that has been.

            Ya’ll be safe.
            Smoky 🙂

          • Seeker,

            I meant to add that my interpretation that it is buried/sepulchre hinges on the meaning of “anyone” in Fenn’s 12 foot quote (as you point out). If anyone includes non-searchers, then it must be visible or marked. If it only refers searchers, then note his use of “likely.” A searcher would only likely be there if they solved the poem, and they’d like infer its buried if the poem points to a very small area.

          • Seeker,

            The person who asked the question didn’t use precision in what he was asking. FF gave him a straight answer in his context.

            Read the first sentence in your earlier response to FB

          • CRM,
            I get your point of thought.
            It’s highly unlikely that ‘anyone’ mean anything but a searcher. Fenn has used terms as; some, others, people etc. referring directly about searchers in those comments.
            However, what I’m really saying is; it doesn’t matter what the means of hiding is… it matters only to the line in the poem “IF you’ve been wise and found the blaze…. quest to cease. It also doesn’t matter what is needed to be done at this point.

            Whatever we need to do at this exact point in the solution… At the blaze… is where we need to be to, have all the answers. It will not matter if the chest is buried or very well hidden… If the blaze gives up a distance directly to the chest…or… the blaze is incorporated with other clues… finding the chest, because the distance from the blaze to the chest will be obvious… means we should know at that blaze exactly where the chest lays in wait. Buried or otherwise. Or fenn’s Q&A is faulted.

            If you also think what can happen to anything over time… normally, time will cover it. So in 3009, it will not matter, to a searcher then, whether it’s buried or not either… they also need the blaze to be found. Which should do exactly as is should be done, be it today or yesterday or 1000 yrs from now.

            If folks want to dig in hopes that they might strike gold, they better be prepared to dig a lot.
            If they want to drag a metal detector around all day long, fine by me… but if the done know the blaze or where the blaze is… they better bring a lot of extra batteries. If they think the chest is under a bush? Or still think it’s in water?… well, I’m not going to go there… I’m going for the blaze. IF I can’t figure it out by then, I don’t deserve the winnings.

          • KK ~ ‘The person who asked the question didn’t use precision in what he was asking. FF gave him a straight answer in his context.’

            Explain ‘precision’.
            The question asked about distance [how far is the chest located], fenn said it would be obvious from the blaze… I don’t see wiggle room here, can you elaborate?
            Even if the chest is located a half mile from the blaze, looking down from an elevated point scenario… we should know exactly where the chest is located.
            Now if there is calculating of sorts involved, that still should produce an located chest.

            Maybe it’s me…I think attempt to figure out the chest hidey spot is impossible to know until the blaze is found /discovered. I’m not looking for the chest… I’m looking for ‘the’ blaze.

          • Seeker,

            I can simply say that knowing the distance from the blaze doesn’t necessarily mean you know the pinpoint location. At least it doesn’t in my case.

            You bring up another argument for burial, though. Fenn cannot possibly predict the action of marmots digging holes and piling dirt on the chest, trees growing and falling for a 1000 years, etc. The first time I have heard a tree fall in a forest was while searching. A large tree could smash the chest, a forest fire may not damage it too bad, but may destroy the wax on the olive jar, eventually ruining the autobiography or DNA. But also. Fenn can’t guarantee it won’t be buried by nature in 1000 years. How will our descendants have a sporting chance of finding it if the search area is a square mile? I am convinced the poem points to a very small area, and it most be buried for protection from nature and stumbling upon. I find thinking about this almost as fascinating as the poem itself.

          • There are many comments from Fenn that include the word “hidden”. Folks that have not read “all of them” should do so. The list is long…but a serious searcher would make the effort…and not assume anything.
            Here is one…Torg and Elliot 1/7/2016
            “Well you have to move your carcass out there I guess. But if you can find the treasure chest it won’t be a big job for you to get it.”
            Good luck…

          • Seeker,

            Explain ‘precision’.
            “The question asked about distance [how far is the chest located], fenn said it would be obvious from the blaze… I don’t see wiggle room here, can you elaborate?”

            I mean not precise or exacting in wording. He only asked where the chest is in proximity (distance) to the blaze. He didn’t ask “where the treasure chest containing the material treasure” was in proximity to the blaze. People make assumptions that Chest= a container holding treasure. Of course this is what the person asking the question meant. But chest has many more definitions. He can use an alternate definition and still be straightforward and exact in his answer. That is the wiggle room.

            I am sure you can take it from there.

          • CRM and Seeker,
            IMO, understanding the first part of the poem prior to the mention of the blaze, tells us what the blaze is.

      • Flutterby,

        I don’t think the flashlight and sandwich comment are clues or instructions. I think it was just a comment by FF as a way to confirm a solve. I could be wrong. Anyway, IMO…

        TimM

    • CRM114,

      I don’t know how it could be buried if it is in the wood. The sentence “If your brave and in the wood” implies it’s in the wood, wood could be fallen trees, or a pile of of branches or woody brush, etc.

      Just Say’n I disagree.

      • What if “in the wood” does not mean the chest is inside a log or wood? How does a log last 1000 years?

          • Ha ha, touche. There are very few places to find petrified wood in the Rockies.

          • Ok, but if I’m in the mountains and happen to notice “it” from 12 feet away, I’m going to investigate it whether I knew of the treasure or not. It seems to me you still have the stumble upon problem.

          • CRM;

            I probably know nothing, but I would bet that even if you were within 12 feet of Indulgence you would NOT see “IT” or “HER”. I will not say she is buried, but I do believe that she is “Secreted” in such a way that if you do not know what to look for, you will walk right on past – but what do I know? Probably not very much – JDA

          • If there’s so much of it that you don’t pay much attention to one particular spot

          • Ha, ha, JDA. I’m new, so I don’t know much either, but I know I searched a couple acre area and concluded if Forrest didn’t set it in the open I could spend a couple weeks searching.

            I also know if a tree falls in the forest and nobody hears it but you, it makes a helluva noise.

            I try to clear my head of what I think I know about the treasure and figure out how everything Forrest said about it can be true.

          • JDA,

            I didn’t give your comment the thought it deserved. I think of the movie “It’s a mad mad mad world” where the treasure is buried under a “big W” So solvers of Forrests poem have special insight to recognize the sign of treasure from 12 feet away whereas a casual passerby would not see and walk right by. So it can be very well hidden or even buried and thus not stumbled upon.

        • CRM,

          Lol you walked right into that…

          Wood definition means petrified wood.
          No place for the meek.
          Brave and in the wood.
          HLnWH.
          One large tree can lift up to 100 gallons of water out of the ground and discharge it into the air in a day.
          One large tree can provide a day’s supply of oxygen for up to four people.

          Folks like to as the {s} even it they don’t say it, to mean woods.

          I know, I know… I mentioned a tree…. just call the thought, Time laps imagery.

          • Ha, I know, something I never considered. I need to branch out so I’m not such a sap. I need to root around some more for sure.

          • Ha!
            So far we’re all a bit sappy.

            There are other indicators for this line of thinking, such as cold…Cold to mean dead.
            Halt can refer to the same with the right context.
            In fact, the whole idea of this challenge started when fenn thought he would die.

            But, to read the poem like this or the theory.. we need context to think of it that way. So you may need to think about the poem slightly different than most.

            Fenn said [paraphrasing] we need to learn what WWH is.
            IMO, so far some have only figured out where it is. And that doesn’t seem to be helping much, just knowing where. For me, that is not a full deciphering of a clue reference, yet can be a deciphered clue just the same.
            Yep, lol, we may need to know the root of it all.

        • It just happens that “brave and in the wood” could mean petrified wood. One of the meanings of “petrified”= scared or terrfied. Therefore, one might need to be “brave” if in the petrified wood. I think its a play on words.

          But, I also wouldn’t advise anyone to going running around looking for places where there is petrified wood. When a person has spent an enormous time in the outdoors, they come across things nobody else knows about. I’m certain that the TC is sitting in just such a place. Not that it isn’t near where other people go, because it could be. But, I think that it is at least a little off the beaten path. A general area where other people have gone, but a little out of the way where FF is aware of something nobody else is.

          We have places like that where we hike. Little areas nobody but us know about and we like it that way. Its like a secret we aren’t telling and nobody else can figure out. It belongs just to us.

    • “To keep all this activity from finding it, it has to be buried, imo.”

      If the chest is buried, hidden or exposed:

      Pay close attention to the following statements:

      “Yeah, that was it. Now here’s a really obscure one. Is it possible to locate the treasure chest without ever leaving your computer and Google Earth?
      No. It isn’t. Did I really say that? There is not a picture of the treasure chest on Google Earth. Was that your question?

      Yeah. I think that will suffice.

      Because Google Earth doesn’t go down far enough.”

      Now, remove negatives:

      “Yeah, that was it. Now here’s a really obscure one. Is it possible to locate the treasure chest without ever leaving your computer and Google Earth?
      Yes. It is. Did I really say that? There is a picture of the treasure chest on Google Earth. Was that your question?

      Yeah. I think that will suffice.

      Because Google Earth does go down far enough.”

      Look gaze here:

      Because “Google Earth doesn’t go” down far enough.

      If “Google Earth does go” down far enough, so chest is visible, exposed.

      Just think a little. Intelligence and management of ideas, without complications.

      I am amazed at the capacity of thinking that some people have, but at the same time can not process such simple things!

      They seem to think that “everything” has to be thought of in a complicated way.

      They complicate much of what is simple, and also greatly simplify what is complicated.

      They take seriously everything that FF says, literally without being necessary, and can not see the “ideas” through words when necessary.

      • McB,
        If your definition of “down” and “far” and “enough” are correct, then you would be right. But, I don’t think you are using the correct definitions of those words. Just my opinion, but there are other definitons which explain this statement by FF

        • I used FF words, not mine. I just changed the negatives to positive. Something learned in the first years of school. Is not it enough to clarify if the chest was, or not, “buried” by FF?

          Nature may have hidden the chest, but FF left exposed. Proof of this is that “if Google Earth go down far enough,” chest would be visible.

          “FF” suggested that, “not me”.

          What is the difficulty in understanding such a simple phrase?

          The chest may be on top of a rock, 12 feet high! Who would stumble into him up there? Only the one who knew what he was looking for!

          And if it’s on the ground, in a little ditch, with lots of grass and shrubs around it? Who would stumble into him in the middle? Only the one who knew what he was looking for!

          Or if it is in the sand, and the wind covered it with sand! Who would stumble into him there, in the ground smooth? Only the one who knew what he was looking for!

          If it’s between “two” or “ten” rocks full of leaves and branches on top! Who would stumble into him in the middle? Only the one who knew what he was looking for!

          In just the first two years, many searchers passed the “side” of the chest with just the simplistic interpretation of the poem! And in the last 6 years everyone just debates nonsense, increasingly complicate the poem and it seems that they are going further and further away from the chest. (I have not seen the chest in anyone’s hand yet!)

          Have the simplicity of the dove and the cunning of the serpent. That will solve the poem.

          • “What is the difficulty in understanding such a simple phrase?”

            Exactly!

            We hav e been told many times that FF looked up words and went back and rebooted. He uses definitions of words that we might not consider. He gave us several examples in TTOTC. Like, when he got fired his boss told him he was “canned”.

            IMO the reason the TC has not been found is lack of imagination and lack of understanding word definitions and instead using the most common use of a word. That will get us no where.

            IMO

          • That’s what I’m talking about. when FF says something complicated, you simplify … when FF says something simple, you complicate … will understand the human being …

          • I may be overcomplicating, but I know how the rocky mountains are used, and Forrest does too. Cutting trees, hunting animals, going into the trees to poop, kids climbing rocks to play, fighting fires. Non searchers outnumber searchers 100 or 1000 to 1, maybe more. Roam around where you think people never go and you will find their signs of you look hard enough. You don’t appreciate Forrest’s dilemma of finding a spot none of these people will ever go for 1000 years when he knows many people go off trail like him. Remember it is a special place.

            Forrest greatly simplified his problem by burying it. No searchers can walk all around it and not find it, but the searcher who solves to a very specific location can find it. The poem is a map.

          • Don’t fly over just yet McB the British Contingent have yet to play their ACE card, it will be found this summer IMO and as frustrating as it may sound if Mr Fenn doesn’t want his location disclosed then no amount of money will make me disclose where it was.

          • Butch,.

            If you are in the right place, you will never want to reveal it. You and FF will be in serious trouble. : (

      • it deeply disturbs me that there exists such cognitive suppression.
        also, my gut wrenched when i read, “…i witnessed a youth remove the phone from their pocket, enter the lock code, navigate to the calculator, and multiply 10 x 10…”
        ****heavy sigh****

  4. Buried means the dirt would be discolored at first. How long before the dirt would look normal again? Not saying it wasn’t, he has said before that it was buried, so quite possible. I still think it is in a seek no further tree area. Bushes, foliage, grass could hide very well. Plus, he did say in the wood, for whatever that means, and the name of his typewriter.

  5. There’s a place over your head, in a literal sense, that it could be entombed where there once was someone/something else entombed. Once. The owner never came forward and there was no announcement for the discovery. I’m guessing the skeleton is possibly still there. It’s either in a pantry, a fireplace, or the rafters of a long-eroded room with a view. Imo…

    • I keep hearing a heart beat in the wood floor joists… That can’t be good, can it?

  6. Eric D – As to your earlier query, I shouldn’t say what part of WY but you should be pretty worried imo lol.

      • I’m in your area too, but no petrified wood, just bears and wolves and Indulgence.

        • Right now there’s just high rivers and creeks and potentially still snow covered trails or lots of mud. Oh and bears and indulgence plus petrified wood in a not too well travelled area.

          • I pulled some Texans out of the snow that got stuck near my area. They were lucky I happened along, but I don’t have to cross any rivers that aren’t culverted or bridged. I had to move some trees though.

      • I’m sure I’m not in your area so as far as that goes you are right not to worry.

  7. NPR ran a story today about how important Beavers are to the ecosystems of the Rocky Mountains and so those dam building rodents are being replanted in areas where they were trapped out two hundred years ago by the mountain men….

    They also have a great video from the 1940’s showing how the government dropped beavers from aircraft into remote areas…

    So what does all this have to do with the treasure…

    Well…for the poem purists out there, you might look up the etymology of the word “beaver” if you haven’t already…

    Look here for the NPR story on bringing back the beavers:
    https://www.npr.org/2018/06/24/620402681/the-bountiful-benefits-of-bringing-back-the-beavers

    • Thanks Dal,
      I did not know that. If nothing else I learned a lot in this game.

      Kanafire

      • Should have been I’ve learned a lot. Like FF I didn’t much like school either.
        Kanafire

    • Thanks for this information, Dal. I’m not sure that it’ll help anyone solve the
      poem or find the TC, but I saw evidence of beaver activity upstream of my
      search area. IMO.

    • Dal,

      BINGO! I’ve said this for some time now. The origin of the words will help with the solve.
      Also, the bear in the lake=beaver=bher=etymology.
      This is only speculation but does figure in my solve.
      I guess I’m a purist, as you say.
      Thanks for the post, all you do for the searcher community and all in the Fenn Sphere.

  8. Can we go back to the “nudged” thing from the book signing? I started at 9 minutes and went to about 15 and didn’t hear him say this comment about someone nudging the chest. I think I and others are mis-interpreting what McB was saying (i.e. it’s his conspiracy theory based on the “dig” comment).

    • FMC, Flutter, KK…friends…

      FF has been manipulating Chase since 2012.

      That was when he realized that his poem was taking a lot of people near the treasury.

      Conspiracy theory? It may be … it may not be … but … what if?

      I wanted to have Zap’s memory with Charlie’s deduction and JDA’s stubbornness.

      The chest coins already would have seen the sunlight again.

      In my opinion the chest “is” exactly where it “should” be.

      After all it is a trophy to American freedom and to the power of its people.

      My search partner can says so. ; )

      • He has been manipulating the chase since it’s inception but hard to really say that he has tried to make it harder. We will know more when the chest is found. He seems to have known that the people that did get closest to the chest did not understand the poem and that is why they left it. Getting close physically has proven to be of no use without getting close mentally. He know that he has said things like word that is key and important detail, which leads us to believe that searchers have not solved the poem.

        We have yet to see if the “gut feeling” comment is because of new information he has received from a searcher.

        • Aaron,

          Those who were around might need to think more, plan more, have more courage …

          JMO my friend. But, what if?

        • We know how Forrest likes definitions. Look up “gut feeling” and you will find it’s an intuition not based on logic. If Forrest used it per definition, I figure he has no specific information from any specific searcher to conclude it will be found by them.

          • Yes CRM, I’ve looked that up and feel like that is likely that he hasn’t been given information. Honestly, I think that statement was to get people excited about the summer and in a more competitive mind set. The way FF talks though, it is hard to know for sure.

          • I agree.

            FF did not receive any specific information from anyone.

            But…

            In my opinion, someone pointed to the right path (nudged the chest).

            And that came after discussions about punctuation. What will it be? What was says different?

            To remember.
            To study.
            To analyze.
            To conclude.

        • I believe FF’s “gut feeling” came from reading posted messages
          on the blogs/forums about the hunt, as someone with a GREAT
          solve would not e-mail FF privately, disclosing what the solve is. IMO.

          • I’ve been shouting that for days … FF noticed something and showed up.

            So in doubt, it’s best not to change plans for now.

  9. Less than 3 years from where TTOTC was released (02/03/2013) Forrest said:

    “What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots.”

    Why did he say what he said when he said it? Does anybody have a theory why he didn’t expect that?

    • Oz10,

      The only thought I have on that is that perhaps he thought people would analyze the poem in its architecture and wording to understand it before going right to a map.

      “If I have an advantage over everyone, it’s that I think a lot. So I told myself that from now on, I was going to wake up at 7 in the morning, lay in bed till 8, and think.” ff

    • That is a good question, I’ve wondered the same thing. The only thing I can surmise is that he didn’t think that people would have solved the poem right away and then moved to maps to search.

    • Remember. Forrest also said, to paraphrase, “All you need is the poem, and a good map.”

      But what constitutes a good map to Forrest? That has long been my question. With the right map, all the clue should make sense. Right?

    • KK/ Aaron, Yep, that seems to be the case. He didn’t expect people delving into maps immediately. I wonder if he thought to himself, how are these people coming up with places to search without solving the poem first? How is anything on that poem (at face value) can be construed as a location? That will be oversimplifying the challenge in the poem. Unfortunately, I see that this keeps happening to the newbies, but then again part of the idea was to get people out so it worked.

    • Oz10….that is one of Fenn’s comments that has stuck in my craw since he said it. On the surface it seems obvious that he expected folks to concentrate more on solving the clues in a “different” manner when designed than using maps.
      A lot of the commonly remembered comments came out right around 2013ish including: maps, architect, observing, planning and so on. Apparently he did not think of “everything”. He even changed “mountains” to Rocky Mountains.
      Perhaps he over-estimated searcher capabilities to decipher the clues…or took advantage of the trend to extend the search area.
      At any rate…this is one of the comments that I keep close when working on deciphering…instead of first relying on the maps.

      • Very good Ken. I agree with that. At the end of that same year TFTW gutted the Rocky Mountains in half. Makes me think that this location is very specific. Not like Yellowstone or a national forest. Much much smaller.

    • Why he did not expect this, I do not know.

      But I’m sure, what came after that (ATFs, books, hints, interviews …) was to spread the searchers from near the chest.

  10. I pulled a long forgotten book from a shelf. It’s *called* Flywater. I read a book *titled* Journal of a trapper.

      • Mr. Fenn talked about a lot of books in TTOTC, but only used the word *title* once. It could be be a connection to *title* to the gold in the poem.

        • Possibly. Good thinking. 🙂

          I know I have looked up all sorts of stuff regarding gold titles!

    • James,
      I was mulling over Flywater this morning. I know FF talks a lot about fly fishing. But he also flies (or did fly) a plane. What if Flywater is not a hint about fly fishing but instead is a hint that the “water” we need is visible from the air.? Or perhaps its another hint to a cloud (flying water)?

      • I finally got the original version and I can definitely see why Forrest tipped his hat with a mention that I didn’t get from the 2nd version.

  11. Seeker –

    Carryover from OaEs 57.

    I was commenting to Flutterby that he is failing to simplify and in so doing, missing the obvious clue (potentially) in Totem Cafe Caper. He is building a quote elaborate story, the length of which surpasses the length of the Fenn original. To me that’s nonsense. I could make any number of comments to him or ask any number of questions. Instead I just remind him to simplify.

    The clue in the chapter I am referring to is kettles.

    Lugnutz

  12. One definition of “thrill” is “vibration”. One definition of “chase” is “engraved metal”

    So “The Thrill of the Chase” could mean “The vibration of engraved metal”

    Haven’t seen this brought up anywhere.

    First thing pops into my mind is a railroad track. Not sure if or how this would fit into anything yet.

  13. JDA, sorry to hear about your GPS issue. I have had similar issues with a GPS and prefer to use phone apps now instead. I’ll still carry my GPS for back up though.

    I’m sure the function at the junction was a blast. I wanted to attend but the timing isn’t quite the best for me as I will be there on the first. If any other searchers will be around W. Yellowstone in early July let me know.

    • Thanks Aaron – am working on the GPS issues – May be operator error – we will see. Sorry we missed you – would have loved to meet you – JDA

  14. Welcome back JDA. Sounds like you had a great time. Did the weather cooperate?

    Pinatubocharlie

    • PC;

      Weather was great – a couple of sprinkles, but nothing to worry about. Temp was perfect for hiking – little to no wind. Thanks for asking – JDA

  15. While Fenn said “It is not likely that anyone (a searcher) would get that close (12′) and not find it” I don’t think he meant that it would be visible or simple to find from that distance. I think he meant that a searcher savvy enough to solve enough of the poem to get them within 12′ would likely also be clever enough to discover the chest.
    IMO.

    • Characters of notable interest:

      “Caught digging guy” Check out Fenn’s reaction when he says “Caught by who?”
      “Page 99 guy” Forrest tries to be personable and elaborate on the drawing and the guy keeps interrupting him (sheesh!). I love it when he says: “That’s where the treasure is right there.”
      “Jerky guy” Traveled 1,300 miles to give Forrest a piece of paper and show him a nice polished rock he can’t have. Then gives him a small rough pebble in a gift box.

      • I could only watch a few minutes of it. It was like watching vultures circle their prey.

        • I watched right up to Forrest telling the guy not to dig where you’re not supposed to. Maybe 5 minutes in or so….

        • I’d been hoping to make it but my schedule didn’t allow enough time for a search and a trip to Santa Fe. After watching that video I’m glad that I didn’t make it. It looked full of awkward moments. I hope that all of the events aren’t like that for Mr Fenn.

    • ff is a very patient man! He has all types of people wanting to talk to with him. I wonder if he ever gets to just sit and eat a sandwich or drink a dr pepper in peace?

      His hearing is as bad as my Uncle who was a gun smith and shooter for 50 years. The “huh” and “what’d he say” are endearing and make me reminisce.

      You’re doing (did) a good thing ff.

  16. I noticed something interesting while visiting here in Toledo today. Guess what east-west US highway goes through Toledo? U.S. 20! The very same U.S. 20 that goes through West Yellowstone.

    • WOW!! That’s great Zap!! Does U.S. 20 also run through Peoria??

      “One lady called me from Minneapolis or someplace, and said, “I’m a cripple, and I can’t get out of my house, but I think I’ve solved the problem. I just have to have something else to go on?” So I said, “Okay, I’ll give you another clue – the treasure is hidden more than 300 miles west of Peoria.”

      🙂

      • Did he say Peoria too? If Loco says he did, it must be true…(Lol, Loco bringing down the guy, that’s my job with Zap). And I was going to try to be nice today. Lol, Loco… I better get to work.:) (it’s good to be the king).

        • The only Peoria comment I recall was the L. Mills 2011…Fenn talking about not wanting to be on his deathbed and remembering he didn’t kiss the girl from Peoria…something like that.

          • I was just playing Ken. I remember something about Peoria, but not of any importance, that’s what made me laugh. Loco only shows his mug something like every February, to let us know if it’s an early Summer, or extended Winter, or the occasional joke or ATF.

          • Loco stalks around the hen house often… But I’ll never understand his infatuation with the moon.

        • yup…read that one when it came out…Peoria did not stay in the “mental” file. Seemed like another “useless clue” then…and still does. Y’all come on back now….

    • Zap, Isn’t that road closed parts of the year? I don’t know, but f said we could get in any weather, not if the roads were closed. Not saying that’s what you are doing, just any road that can be closed seems like a no-go. Of course, if you are not travelling that road to the closure point that’s different, since it does go thru Toledo, makes it interesting.

      • From the FF stories, is someone “still” innocent of believing that he respected signs or rules that he found restrictive? FF is a dissident, maverick … Hey guys that do not pay attention to anything!

        • Are you saying I’m not paying attention, or, that he would actually use a restricted road to hide the chest? I’m sure he thought of everything, even the way we must travel. Even my path goes down a road with no motorized vehicles, but not totally restricted. He may be a maverick, but the families that he wants to get out in nature might not be. I think he would understand this. So I question your comment, especially if my son and I are to not follow the warning signs and venture in the wood like f does to find the chest. Would f really put families on that path?

          Yes, some are not paying attention.

          • I’m with you Charlie. I don’t go where it says clearly not to go- especially when my children (even the adult one) travel with me.

            I don’t know where everyone is from, but in my neck of the woods it is pretty common to have no trespassing signs, no hunting signs, private property, etc. It is also fairly common that if you go ask the farmer or rancher if you can take a walk on their land, and it is safe for you and doesn’t interfere with their business, they will allow without batting an eye.

          • I agree with you Charlie. Just because FF does courageous things does not mean that he would encourage anyone to break the law or tresspass. I really believe FF intended for this chase to be fun. He has encouraged people to stay safe. I’m sure that includes following rules and laws.

        • I’m guessing this quote is one for FF.

          “You learn what the rules are, and then you learn how to play the game better than anyone else”.

          I think he knows or learned exactly what and where he could or could not do things. And I think if it was on well marked private property, he would have either gained consent or not used it. Gaining consent might require telling his secret, so I’m gonna go with find another spot.

          Federal and Public property is probably a little different in his mode of thought, and I am sure he knows all the rules there, and just how to skirt them if need be.

          All that really matters as a searcher is that wherever you go and whatever you do, you have to comfortable with whatever consequences arise out of the footsteps you take, because they belong to you and are the fault of no one else.

        • Credulity and innocence do not match what I’ve studied of the FF so far.

          And the Chase that would last hundreds of years makes me think that “nobody”, absolutely “nobody”, that came close to the chest, was totally faithful to local laws and rules.

          Those who were nearby “did not even know they were there”!

          Few would dare to cross the fence except FF.

          FF is not dishonest, he is “brave”. Different from most of us.

          Look at his story. So I said: Hey guys that do not pay attention to anything!

          I do not make bets, but I would kiss the hands and feet of the person found the chest in a place that did not need permission to enter.

      • Ken: was attending 80th birthday party. Only brought up US 20 because I thought it was amusing that it went through Toledo.

        Charlie: doesn’t really matter to me if parts of US20 are seasonally closed; my destination is reachable year-round.

        • Zap…all good man. Wow ! You’re 80 ! just jiving…I bet some folks latch onto US 20 in Toledo tying in somehow….just the same. Have a good one.

        • Hi Ken: as you guessed, not my 80th… ;-). The “more than 300 miles west of Toledo” “clue” has always been an odd ball for me. It’s not like the woman to whom he was replying was from Toledo; the city was seemingly plucked out of the blue. The coast-to-coast US 20 provided my first tenuous Toledo link to Forrest via West Yellowstone. It’s weak, but I hadn’t come with anything else.

          • I feel ya’ Zap. Fenn has come up with a couple of doozies that just come from another zone. I have a short list that I seem to gravitate back to. One of them Oz10 addressed today…a little different than the context we’re speaking of. I often wondered if these seemingly off the wall comments originated from emails Fenn got from folks over the years…you know…mixing things up and toying around a bit.

          • If I’m not mistaken… the Toledo comment may have have been before the RM’s confirmation …IF that is accurate… it;s another way of saying Not in the Appalachian Range or any other range, line of thinking, but ‘only’ in the range N.of SF. The Rockies.

            But does it really matter? fenn call it [ and others ] “useless clues.”… Heck when he say a flashlight and a sandwich or certainly not clues… there are some that just don’t believe it. A posting just in the last 72 hours had it as a reason in a solve.

          • Zap,

            To the best of my knowleDge Forrest never said which Toledo he was referring to. And there are many geographical references to places of that name.

            That being said and even though I am no longer interested in Yellowstone NP, I would like to point out yet again, albeit a little differently; if you go due west long enough from Toledo, Oregon, you will eventually enter the airspace of Yellowstone NP as they share a common latitude.

            But the actual hint is deeper than that.

            Pinatubocharlie

          • PinatuboCharlie: Forrest did later confirm it was Toledo, Ohio, and not one of the other many Toledos in the U.S.

  17. Anybody want to mull over a new idea? Consider this! I was hiking this morning and climbed a grassy hillside to get a better view of an Osprey nest. The weeds were full of burs which took me an entire 1/2 to get off my socks. But it was WORTH it for the photos. What if “worth the cold is not talking about temperature at all? Suppose burr (like you are cold) is talking about weeds with burs in them? I realize that weeds are not permanent and may not last a thousand years. But if the area is a place that grows weeds with burs, they would return every year in the summer for many years. Burr= cold ?

    • Too much of a stretch for me.

      I saw a posting recently by “Flutterbly”.

      Maybe soon we’ll see one by Shutterfly. Or Shuffled Rye.

      It shouldn’t take much time or money to implement another handle, even if one already has 66,000 of them.

      All IMO.

      • tighterfocus,
        Its too much of a stretch for me too. But, I tossed it out in case anyone might be interested. I did find it entertaining.

      • Flutterby’s example may be bit/ter of a stretch… But the idea of word usage is what is implied. {and she did ask if folks wanted mull over a thought}

        For example Cold as burr feeling ‘implies temperature’ or uncomfortable… right? vs. warm as comfortable.
        Many think this way when attempting to understand Cold.

        Another Cold idea in illness… which could relate to ‘tried and weak’ is some respect.
        Another idea, Cold ~ burr, {burr; whirring sound.} to mean sound… we do have the line “hear me all and listen good”
        The problem with Interpretation is to understand what the ‘writer intended.’ That can be difficult enough in a story, nevertheless, a poem that was designed to be analyze and thought out… with clues embedded.

        Some folks don’t like the idea that a meaning of a ‘word usage’ need context to truly understand… sometimes can be several stanzas away.
        Point to the idea is this… IF cold’s full meanings and usages [and yes synonyms, because they relate to the word’s usage]
        IF cold can mean sound rather than temperature?… what could warm refer to as comfortable and possibly sound?

        If I wanted a reader to understand something and presented clues that involved warm, cold and their multiple meanings and usages to describe something [ and still make it hard, yet true, to the meanings ] would it be such a “stretch” if the idea wrapped around the liberty bell?
        It’s cold to the touch [ burr ] It’s warm to its representation.. our liberty and it makes a sound. But that sound was halted when cracked. { just an example… absolutely nothing to do with fenn’s poem, and obviously would need more information to collaborate with a full interpretation. } ~ not the greatest example, but I hope ya git the gist of the process.

        I highly doubt when fenn said he ‘looked up words and changed’ [ until it was just right ~ the poem ] that he changed a word that had no connection to his first intent. Yet, he didn’t want the poem’s clues to be easy either.

        An example of this thought would be creek, which almost all want it to be a movement of water.. yet creek can simply mean a narrow passage.
        ~”It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking.”

        Searchers on site, with deciphered clues, walking by everything… are not thinking enough. {imo}

        Flutterby… Nothing wrong with mulling a thought over… But burr as a plant doesn’t really connect with anything in the poem [ that I can understand, anyways ]. A plant that may not be there in a year, nevertheless 100 years. Even my first thoughts of burr and relationship to other parts of the poem may not be the best idea… but I try and link to the poem more than I do to anything that can change in the physical world, almost overnight.

        Just suggestions… no real information.

        • I agree with you Seeker. My intent in suggesting that burr could mean cold was to point out that we may not be looking at the right definition and hence not arriving at the correct location. I just found it entertaining to think that burr could mean cold. It helped me see that we there may be a completely different interpretation of the poem that is the correct interpretation based on variances in definitions.

          I believe that everything in the poem is connected to everything else in the poem. By that I mean that the solve I’m working on is looking at the “big picture” of the water cycle. I do not believe that one clue can refers to a famous person, another to a comic book character and another to a bible verse. I think that all the clues have the same theme. Personally I think that theme is the water cycle. But, I could be wrong and it could be something else. I just believe that all the clues are connected to one idea.

          If there is anyone who still thinks that FF would not have chosen words for their less common definitions, you should review Scrapbook #73.

          Scrapbook #73
          Spring is out of hibernation. . .The two acres surrounding our home are covered with beautiful bluish-purple flowers. My wife says they’re weeds, and I don’t understand why. Who gets to decide what’s a weed and what’s a flower? Some things that seem simple to me can be so complicated for others. I think we should take another look at our definitions. If it’s pretty, why would anyone call it a weed? That’s a derogatory term. Besides, weeds grow much faster than flowers and that’s a plus for us gardeners. I wonder if our nursery sells weed seeds.

          As with some definitions, there are many issues in this life that I don’t agree with (“with” is a preposition). Who made the rule that says I shouldn’t end a sentence with a preposition? Probably some Harvard PhD somewhere. Einstein said, “Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.” He had a very unique way of saying things differently. (My English teacher in high school told me that “There is no such thing as very unique. Either it’s unique or it isn’t and unique doesn’t need to be qualified.” I never liked that woman.

        • Seeker,
          You mentioned the word creek. In case it hasn’t been considered (and it probably has), the word creak can mean a sound (hear me all)

      • tighterfocus,
        You said, “I saw a posting recently by “Flutterbly”.
        Maybe soon we’ll see one by Shutterfly. Or Shuffled Rye.
        It shouldn’t take much time or money to implement another handle, even if one already has 66,000 of them.”

        Not really sure what 66,000 handles you are talking about. But, it just so happens that I was typing into my phone from the trail when I made the typo. I was working through a part of the poem with BOG so was slightly distracted. Anyway; don’t know who has 66,000 handles, but it isn’t me.

  18. Sean, You mentioned vibration. What the heck are those metal bells about anyway? “Hear me good”

    • Well, they are in the book TTotC, so I guess they’re fair game for inclusion in the solve.

  19. Lugnutz,
    Sorry if you cant see the underlying story in Totem Cafe Caper. But, its there. FF put it there. Not me. It fits underlying stories in many more of FF’s tales.

  20. Searchers, please …

    If I’m not bothering.

    How many figures (only hand drawn) exist in the book TTOTC?

    What are they like, their description?

    I’ll give something in exchange for my solution.

    Thanks.

    • heres my list McB ….31 hand drawn sktches.. Many of the ’small clips’ are taken from the larger pics used in the story. The small clips are placed under the Title of the story.

      pg 20, small pic, 2 biddies whispering
      pg 21, boy and people in background
      pg 23, small clip, principal & boy seated
      pg 25, principal & boy seated (same pic, larger)
      pg 27, modified photo/drawing of jr, high school
      pg 29, small clip, boy milking cow & 6 cats
      pg 31, boy milking cow (same pic, larger)
      pg 32, small clip, 2 boys playing marbles
      pg 33, 2 boys playing marbles, plus 2 on-looker boys.
      pg 37, small clip, boy sitting on gravestone looking skyward
      pg 41, same pic larger, with night sky & stars added
      pg 42, small pic, gypsy wagon w/ boy hiding underneath
      pg 43, same pic larger, w/ more wagons & females dancing around bonfire.
      pg 47 small clip, boy w/pie sitting at base of tree
      pg 49 same pic larger w/ Frosty pointing at boy
      pg 50 small clip, Skippy & wash-machine helicopter.
      pg 51 same pic larger, w kids running away
      pg 55 small clip, 2 boys running along side old Ford car
      pg 57 a boy in socks walking on barren road, car in distance.
      pg 68, small clip , buffalo pulling car, kids bouncing out
      pg 69 buffalo pulling rope w/ bouncing axel (no car)
      pg 69 singing men around bonfire
      pg 71 Same pic larger
      pg 73 Helcopter, grassy field, soldier holding stone slab
      pg 95, same pic, larger
      pg 99, arial scene, plane in air, 2 bombs dropping, mountains &
      and canyon in background, fields below, palm trees covering
      bunker & guns in foreground. (Some think this pic is a map)
      pg 109, small clip, 6 kids 1 teacher holding onto a rope line
      pg111 same pic, w car waiting for kids to cross street
      pg 114 outline of cloud and plane in sky
      Pg 115 same cloud, mountain w canyon-wall below
      pg 147 night sky, crescent moon w nesting bird , 23 cut tree stumps, man in overalls & boots w/ ax looking at moon- bird.

      • OS2,
        If you’re speaking of important pictures, you forgot pg 122, 123..
        IMO of course..

        • Thx Eagle, I debated, photo or sketch. Some think the drawn outline is meaningful, a big letter E. I do not. But on 2nd thought, E begins a little name in one of my solves. Funny that it is also the name of a building in a Santa Fe Gallery (noted by Lady V, so thanks to her as well. )

  21. McB and tighterfocus,
    I disagree as usual. “Gut feeling” is a hint. Ties in with FF’s “sensitivities” that he mentioned in TTOTC. “Gut” is the first part of the hint and sensitivities is the second part of the same hint.

  22. IMO if someone had “nudged” the chest, there is no evidence of that except in your imagination. But, if you think it was you, go get it. Let the chase come to an end.

    • Flutterby, borboleta ou seja lá o que for,

      I think you need to learn to read.

      “Read”, “pay attention” and “think” about what we said.

      I’m not presenting “facts”, just “ideas”.

      What I do is called “THINK.”

      You think? So think before you speak!

    • He’s probably rolling around in it… Now we just need to figure out what IT is.

    • Maybe kettle crow for him? For my next trip I’m going to confidently predict that I’m not going to find the chest so that I can avoid eating one of those annoying birds.

  23. ‘Gut feeling’ means Forrest is psychic and he knows I’m on the hunt. LOL

    • M Healey,
      That makes at least as much sense as any of the other ideas presented. Maybe you are right. 🙂

  24. Zap,

    Thank you for clearing up the Toledo comment. I thought he had later confirmed it was Ohio but I couldn’t confirm it with tarryscant though.

    Take care………Pinatubocharlie

    • So he has said it is more than 300 miles west of Toledo. Madison Wisconsin is a little over 300 statute miles (generally) west of Toledo. Hint at the Madison River?

    • Well uhh, there is that Toledo caldera in the Jemez Mts. east of Santa Fe … but 300 miles west of it is somewhere in Arizona. However, 300 north of it is somewhere in Browns Canyon.
      Heres a map of the Toledo caldera.

      VallesCaldera_web.jpg

      • oops, Toledo Caldera is west of Santa fe. the Arizona border is further west, about 170 mi.

    • As I recall, the first time Forrest mentioned the “more than 300 miles west of Toledo” statement was at a time before he had made it clear that the chest was in the Rockies…at that time he was simply saying that the chest was hidden in the “mountains north of Santa Fe”…which…by Forrest’s own warning, included the Appalachians, Sierra Nevadas, Cascades, Alps and others on several continents. So at that time the “Toledo” statement was a pretty heady hint that narrowed down the search area considerably.

      He used that statement several times after he had declared the chest to be in the Rocky Mountains too, and at least once he wrote “300 miles southwest of Toledo”. But that was likely unintended.

      By any measure, including Forrest’s own words…it’s not much of a clue…since we now know it’s in the RMs…

      Context is valuable…

      • Dal, ol’ friend ( I hope), I agree that it is not much of a clue….but only because fenn has indicated that it is not:

        In desrtphile’s recording, Feb. 26, 2011, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Whsr1OCNimI ……he says “west of Toledo”, but puts it at 400 miles?

        Then, Feb. 28, 2013, https://www.thedailybeast.com/if-youre-hunting-for-forrest-fenns-buried-treasure-start-here ….Tony D. relates: Fenn once pointed a blogger in a slightly different direction, teasing the treasure as being “more than 300 miles west of Toledo.” But he tells me the line was “said in jest” and that “there is no clue there.” – – given the source, I kinda had to take it with a grain of salt. 🙂

        Buuut, Aug. 8, 2013 – – http://www.eisradio.org/item/003/ ….fenn himself says, “the first clue that I gave that wasn’t in my Poem was because I made this guy mad and he demanded another clue. And I said OK, the treasure chest is hidden more than 200 miles west of Toledo.I don’t think he knew that I was pulling his leg.”

        so yep, amusingly enough, he deliberately ‘pulled’ some searchers leg…..and others allowed their chains to be yanked(as with a number of his comments). I don’t fault HIM for it, it’s all in good fun!! We see what we want to see, regardless if he says otherwise.

        I’ve been quite amused over the years at the number of searchers who find concrete evidence that some of the comment(s) are definite proof of their ‘correct’ solutions!! 🙂

        Go get that dang chest, big guy…..and stop this madness!! 🙂 “)

  25. If the IMO (in my opinion) ideas are not enough to make your head spin…try a journey on YOUTUBE!
    There are so many vides from so many junior woodchucks that it is more entertain
    ing than anything produced in Hollyweird .
    You have gypsies, ramblers, self appointed
    fennean gurus,
    mobil home hermits,
    kings english
    interpreters, stoned
    ponies, and a greater
    cast of charaters than
    P.T. Barnum could have
    ever have assembled.

    For cheap thrills I in the
    past played Janis….now
    I tune in to youtube.,
    type in the thrill of the
    chase and bingo, off on
    myriad adventures in all
    directions by every cut
    of the cloth would be movie star. This is a quiet riot. Don’t forget the popcorn.

    This little commentary was brought to you by LOW FAT SPAM and is intended for audiences seeking a smile.

    And as always…IMO

  26. BOTG Friday, I plan on spending the weekend at my location. I’m thinking this will be it! Like everyone else haha only, I have a pretty solid solve and by that I mean; I have found many clues validating my solve. I’m hoping my blaze is as obvious as I think it is. I’ve made trips in the past that didn’t pan out, because I ended up going off from poem. From searching the HOB- to looking for another marking on a tree, after finding one at the first bend in the trail.

    I think I understand the poem and the location. The location is lovely, this will be my 4th visit (my first lasting longer than 7hrs on a quick day trip) and I’m confident it will be my last.

  27. In TTOTC, Mr. Fenn says that he walked the *mile* to school. That’s a little hard to belive, since his father the teacher/principal, drove both ways. Looks like a hint to me.

  28. A place exists where scissortails and olive jars meet dead French soldiers and teachers with ropes, a place where candles flicker and the end of a rainbow bathes the floor with its colorful light. It is a place where the path is difficult to follow but not impossible. There is a place where these aberrations exist in harmony. It is within the Romanesque bronze box that is “Indulgence”.

    The chest is in fact The Basilica Cathedral of St. Francis of Assisi in Santa Fe .

    “Begin it where warm waters halt” = a sea.
    “And take it in” = see
    Combining these to phrases we see “a sea see”= Assisi

    So we start at the entrance of the cathedral. We see a small basin of water (holy water).This is where warm water halts. It halts the faithful as they pause to bless themselves.

    “And take it in the canyon down not far but too far to walk” = enter the church a short distance.
    “Put in below the home of brown” = launch and land under Providence.

    The launch under providence is Baptism as you are now standing in the center of the cathedral where the Baptismal pool stands.
    The land under providence is the prayer garden outside below the church. SO we proceed to the garden.

    “From there it’s no place for the meek.” The garden consists of life size bronze statues depicting the passion of Christ, and witnessing this is not for the meek.

    Christ’s end is coming. We are lost. He will carry our loads.

    “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze”= Enlighten

    “Look quickly down your quest to cease” (What do you see?) Yourself.

    Enlighten yourself (Confession)

    “But tarry scant with marvel gaze” = observe

    “Just take the chest and go in peace” =just take the body (communion) =the body of Christ

    Observe the body of Christ. At this point you should be standing at the station of the cross depicting Christ’s body lying in the tomb.

    “So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek?” The answer is Faith.
    He already knows. = Confirmation

    “I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak” = rest, spent
    He is saying; “Keep the Faith”

    “So here me all and listen good” . This is an order. The list of ten would be the commandments. And what are they but Holy Orders. The holy order here would be Franciscan and of course in front of the church is a bronze statue of St. Francis. Around his waist you will see a knotted rope. He is a teacher with ropes.

    “Your efforts will be worth the cold” =Quest to seize= discover

    “If you are brave” = Indian. Next to St. Francis you will see the statue of the first Native American saint. On her wrist you will see a turquoise beaded bracelet.

    “and in the wood” = grain

    Indian + grain + maize. Before you is the maze. A prayer labyrinth to be more precise.

    “I give you title to the gold” = present name to treasure = present indulgence

    Starting at the word Franciscan we could easily get “scan disc over maze”.

    Lo and behold there is a disc at the center of the maze and on it is the Cross of Jerusalem, a large central cross with four smaller crosses in each quadrant.

    So here we find the “x” that marks the spot of the treasure. We have never left the cathedral we are back where we started. In the Romanesque bronze box that is “Indulgence”.

    The Basilica Cathedral of St. Francis of Assisi is in fact “Indulgence.”

    Within the Church you will find the grave of a French soldier, a soldier of God, Archbishop Lamy who commissioned this cathedral. You will find the consecrated olive oils in jars neatly displayed. Of course there is a place to light candles and pray, and a painting on tile depicting St Francis with a scissortail perched on his hand. Of course there is St. Francis the teacher with rope, and the beloved Indian Saint with her turquoise bracelet. As you stand out front and look up you will see the dove in the circular window between the towers, just like the ax man.

    The end of the rainbow falls upon the walls and floors of cathedral from the light shining through the stained glass windows.

    There is a burial ground here dedicated to the original settlers of Santa Fe. This is where Fenn will rest in peace next to his bronze chest, the cathedral.

    God Bless one and all. Sincerely, Paul R. Bowker from 28Whitewood St., Old Saybrook , Ct.

    • Lordy, Lordy…thats a wonderfully creative and fresh solution to Forrest’s puzzle Paul. But you ignored a few important hints and clues given by Forrest that would seem to eliminate this solution as viable…
      Here’s one… Forrest has stated on numerous occasions that the chest is hidden at least 8.2 miles north of the northern-most City limit of Santa Fe, NM. Since the Cathedral of St. Francis is within the City limits of Santa Fe…or more to the point, south of the northern-most City limit of Santa Fe, NM; the chest cannot be where you have imagined it to be.
      None-the-less it is an oddly satisfying and invigorating approach to a solution and I thank you for submitting it.
      See more at:
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cathedral_Basilica_of_St._Francis_of_Assisi_(Santa_Fe)

      • Not to mention “not associated with any structure” and “not in a graveyard”.

        • No it is not associated with ANY structure it is associated with only one particular structure.

          • Not: a negative clause.
            Any; used to refer to one or some of a thing or number of things, no matter how much or many.

            Not any; doesn’t have a negative meaning on its own. It must be used with a negative word to mean the same as no.

            In legal usage; Not aah! or notta.

          • Wasn’t the phrase about the structure” referring to a human made structure? So that would make the alien egg legal.

          • The structure is legal if built to code but the aliens are not.

            – Señor Trump.

          • LOL Randawg,
            Isn’t that walling in the code a bit much. Hmm, I wonder if that is why we haven’t heard from hobbit lately? I told him not to rent a car with a sexy voice GPS… ‘they’ can track that.

      • Dear dal, The treasure IS hidden 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe. although the cathedral is well within the city limits the boundry of the diocese and the people (links) that make up the church extend well beyond 8.25 miles they are just hidden.

    • What a wonderful complex imaginative fantasy to get lost in … thank you Paul. Many of my wandering solves also look like winter trees, all branches, no fruits.

    • Reading this solve should count as church service for this week. Now I can go fishing Sunday, thanks.

    • “The Bathilica Cathedral of Thaint Franthis of Athithi. That’th tho thimple!! Right in Thanta Fe. Yeth–Thaint Franthis of Athithi. I thuthpected it would be thecreted away in a holy place! thanksth tho much for thith pothst. My thearch ith over”

      –Daffy Duck

  29. ‘The answers I already know, I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.

    Anyone willing to help me out on this part of the poem please? Tia

    • Butch;

      Don’t know that it will help BUT – Tired can mean wanting to lie down – so Tired could mean low to the ground.

      Weak can mean watered down – Like a weak drink – a watered down drink – So, Tired and watered down could mean in a low place where one will find water – A marshy area perhaps. Forrest did say that it is wet didn’t he?

      Just food for thought – JDA

        • Which the last time I looked up what my name meant (my real name) was when I was a kid. Definitely cool CRM114 and excellent thinking JDA.

    • I’m curious as well!
      I figured it was more or less a reference towards the journey he took to hide the treasure. The location is special and the correct solve will lead you on a mile or so hike, where you might understand the nature of what makes it such.
      The beauty of the area = Why
      the hiking distance/journey from NM = him being tired

    • Butch, I ask myself, what has he done -tired- to the point that he is now -weak-? I can think of 2 or 3 layers to this one.

    • I believe that we all already know the answers, but they are so simple that we do not realize we know them. Since my solve looks at the “big picture” of the water cycle, I believe the answers are in the water cycle. FF has used some creative imagery to describe a scientific process that has created the geography of the area the TC is. “worth the cold” imo the word “worth” means “process” The dictionary describes one meaning of worth as, “specified course of action” “I’ve done it tired” means that the process has been done again and again and again. Tired can mean repetetive action. So, the process has taken place over and over again for thousands of years. The evidence is in the geography of the area the TC is in. IMO, I’m weak refers to the area having less resources than it once did, or at least less water.

      IMO

  30. I have two thoughts to pose to followers regarding ff’s published quotes. (1) He states that the tc is not in close proximity to a human trail. So is a road or any other path not considered a “trail”? In actuality – he was near some type of car accessible point of departure because he has stated this. So what is “close proximity” defined as, and just what defines a trail? This is just classic obfuscation on the part of Fenn in my opinion (look up the definition of this word). Each solve that I have come up with devolves into this quandary – either there is a nearby trail or road, or the solution is so far from civilization as to be impossible.

    Second quandary: Forrest has stated: “If I was standing where the treasure chest is, I see trees, I see mountains, I see animals, I’ll smell wonderful smells of pine needles or pinon nuts, sage brush. And I know the treasure chest is wet.”

    Is he inadvertently stumbling here with reference to pinon pines and sage brush? Is this just a Freudian slip of mind on his part because he instinctively relates to a more arid lower elevation habitat as to his actual hiding place? If so, this might eliminate all of Montana and most of Wyoming in my opinion.

    I am just casting about for ideas or feedback, and not posting a specific solve for dissection or criticism. Please respect my opinions and answer politely and intelligently if you have something to contribute to the general knowledge of those following this post.

    • McKendree;

      In your first paragraph you say, “that the tc is not in close proximity to a human trail.” This is not quite accurate you forgot the word “very” … “Not in VERY close proximaty (sic).” In my mind this makes a difference. Not in VERY close proximity to me is closer than just close proximity. I think that you could be within about 25′ of a trail and not be in VERY close proximity.. .But that is just me.

      For paragraph #2 why not just eliminate the reference to pinon nuts, since he has said that he meant pine needles, even though he had already mentioned them. – so, Wyoming and Montana are back in the mix – they certainly are for me – JDA

      • @JDA, I ended up having to work this last Friday so wasn’t able to go to the Function at the Junction, but if you are ever in Missoula, MT, let me know. I offered Dal lunch if he was ever in town and you are also one of the few people I would extend that offer to as well. If you are interested, Dal has my permission to give you my e-mail address.

        • Thanks Idle Dreamer. Nice offer. Email me at SculptorJDA at aol dot com – That way I will have your address without bothering Dal – Thanks again for the offer – JDA

      • Just about the “proximity” question. This is pretty easy. Don’t go by what others “think’ the distance is, go by what f “defines” the distance as. He doesn’t quite tell us, but it could be figured out. To do that, you need scrapbook 113. He gives the length of the lure at 2 1/4″. He then shows a picture of 4 lures, 3 of them about the distance away from pickles as much as pickles is long, 2 1/4″. He calls this distance “close proximity”.
        Very= exact, (basically), so “very close proximity” is roughly 2 1/4″. or less, or can mean that there is no trail within 2 1/4″ from the chest.
        So basically, the max distance would be 2 1/4″ given that “close proximity” means that to Fenn, very would be a little closer, but I wouldn’t want to go with what I thought. So the closest distance that we have f defining “close proximity” is 2 1/4″.
        (that’s not what is so important about that scrapbook, it’s the number the scrapbook is, 113)
        lol, it’s key….(hint, hint)

        • It’s interesting how he used “close proximaty” in his comment, with “proximity” meaning close/near.

        • Charlie;

          Are you joking? Surly you do not believe that Forrest meant that Indulgence may be only 2 1/4″ from a trail? I just can’t believe that you are serious – JDA

          • No JDA, I don’t think so, but, he is basically defining “close proximity”.
            Are you implying that he isn’t, JDA?
            There is no trail within 2 1/4″, not that f meant that the chest is only 2 1/4″ from a trail. Remember, there is not a human trail within very close proximity of the chest, (or however the comment read). means there is not a trail within 2 1/4″ from the chest. But there could be a trail 3″ from the chest. I don’t believe that, but could be true. So yes, I’m serious about his statement, (even if I’m paraphrasing now).
            We could only go by what he puts out there, not what we think the answer should be. If he says something is within close proximity, then shows a picture and gives a measurement where as we could define that distance, then we can calculate from what he said. In this instance, it’s 2 1/4″, so again, I ask you, JDA, are you implying that f did not give that info, or that it says something else?

          • I admit that Forrest gave two statements using the term proximity. I do NOT think that they are related in ANY way. YOU are the one that is trying to connect the two disparit comments. JMO – JDA

        • Maybe the 2 1/4″ is map distance from the trail. Depending on scale, it could be a consideration. Another instance in which a “good map” could be helpful.

          • oh cant we just agree its out there some where and we need a blaze to find it no i dont mean go start a fire

    • I replied below (some reason the reply from the e-mail didn’t put my reply as part of your comment).

      To add to my reply below, I also wanted to note that you also can’t discount anything he says as well as it can also help you eliminate areas. I have had many solves ruled out because of the elevation range wasn’t reasonable or present.

    • McKendree – here in the 4 Corners region, we call our low elevation forests “P J” for Pinyon/Juniper. The 2 species very frequently occur together. The Juniper tree is also referred to colloquially as a Cedar; but that is not correct. The Pinyon tree, as we know, produces a very nutritious and highly prized seed or nut. In Montana and Wyoming, the Juniper often grows in close proximity to the Whitebark pine tree. The Whitebark pine also produces a very nutritious seed/nut that Grizzly bears are dependent on and very fond of. I’ve often wondered if there is a connection or a mis-speak; the Pinyon and Whitebark pine tree are different but serve similar purposes in their respective ecosystems . Just food for thought….

      • Take it deeper Sandy, you can talk about the seeds but if not for the Osha there would be fewer of them. Every grizzly knows that there’s nothing more exciting than a good root.

        • Straw….I don’t know about Grizz, but in my part of the world it is the Black bear that loves Osha. The Ute Bear Dance every spring celebrates the wisdom of the bear….and the bear’s relationship to Osha. We also call Osha ” Bear root”. A nice man sells Osha at the Rio Grande Gorge Bridge. Check him out…he is wise. And will give you instructions on how to make a Tea from the root.

          • Im a big fan Sandy of all things regarding edible substance. Much like my friends friend once said, the translation may be difficult,…”медведь несет медведя”

        • Straw….after consulting numerous sources, including but not limited to my pendulum and the Farmers Almanac, I’m going to go out on a limb and state with confidence that your phrase translates to “I consider beef jerky health food and I recommend eating beef jerky for dinner every night”. Am I even close?

          • With confidence is a bold statement Sandy. I’m guessing Bessie might not agree with your pendulum theory. But then what do I know, I’m still thinking back in time.

    • McKendree,

      The trail proximity question is a difficult one for me, too. “Close” can be pretty subjective. I got nothing. 🙁 Sorry

    • Mckendree,

      Just a little note regarding the chest being wet…

      In TFTW Forrest told the story of when Jackie Kennedy stayed with him. Remember they enjoyed the small bottle of spirits? There is a picture of the bottle in the book and he labeled it with the date.

      At the end of that story, F mentions something to the effect that maybe someday he would be able to share the remaining portion with one of his “heirs”.

      If F decided to put that little bottle on the top of the gold in the chest, would that make the chest “wet”? It’s the same as calling some counties wet or dry, right?

      So, F could be throwing a curveball at everyone… he says the chest is wet and most people automatically think that he is talking about water or moisture… what if he is just referring to that little bottle of booze that he added? Remember, the finder will like the top two things in it, and there was one thing he put in there that he wouldn’t talk about.

      All IMO, guesses and maybe a little wishful thinking!

      TimM

      • TimM-
        That bottle of hooch is still in Forrest’s office…on his bookcase. I have seen it. Some searchers have actually sipped from it…
        It is not in the chest.

        • Thanks Dal,

          It was guesses and wishful thinking… more than I thought. Lol

          Appreciate the info!

          TimM

  31. That’s an interesting thought about the Pinion Pine/elevation connection. What’s the altitude for Pinion Pine growth?

    • In Colorado Pinyon pine is found from 4000 to 9300 feet (1200 to 2800 m) above sea level, most commonly below 7500 feet (2300 m).

    • I have a map which shows the limits of pinon growth. It depends on how convinced you are to how important this is to the Search. Some question whether Fenn even meant to say this and if it was a mistake.

  32. Those are questions that have been talked about for years (I recommend using the search at the top of site).

    My opinion on the trail is that animal trails, or water trails, are fair game to be right by the treasure. “Close Proximity” is also ambiguous as some might consider arm length as close proximity.

    The second quandary Forrest himself updated because he did realize that opened a can of worms.

    Overall, only the poem and a good map is needed for the solve. Everything else needs to be handled carefully as you could accidentally rule out the correct location. For example, the chest is between 5,000 to 10,200 feet, but that doesn’t mean the other clues are also in that range.

    • Great! Just the sort of reply I was looking for. Not so sure about what you mean regarding the distinction between “very” in terms of degree of proximity, but I take that as affirmation of what I said, and for one to to be within close proximity to a trail is open to some latitude. So that opens a lot of possibilities in my opinion, which is good.

      As to your comment about Fenn’s correction regarding pine needles, I’m not so sure I can agree. What he later said that he meant and what instinctively came to his mind at the time he made his reply are two different things in my opinion. He may have meant to say “pine needles” but what came to his mind first was “pinon” and this may have a deeper connection with Fenn’s conscience.

      • McKendree’

        Regarding the “very” comment.

        I could say I am standing close to you, but if I say that I am standing VERY close to you – the meaning is quite different. Very close is a LOT closer than just standing close. Forrest’s quote uses “not in very close proximaty” (sic) which means a lot closer than if he had said “not in close proximaty (sic) as I read it – You may read it differently. Either way, we each have to decide what it means.

        Forrest’s correction was offered to clarify. By saying Pinon nuts, he all but eliminated Wyoming and Montana, and he realized his mistake, and corrected it. You may feel that it was a Freudian slip, and that he intended to eliminate Wyoming and Montana. That is your choice – I guess only Forrest knows for sure – until Indulgence is found – JDA

        • Am I the only searcher-for-the-TC who remembers that FF used
          the word “or” in his comment(s) about pinon trees/nuts? The fact
          that he did pretty much explains what his message was about those kinds of plants. IMO.

          • Here is the quote: “If I was standing where the treasure chest is, I’d see trees, I’d see mountains, I’d see animals. I’d smell wonderful smells of pine needles, OR pinyon nuts, sagebrush—and I know the treasure chest is wet. Well you’ve asked me a lot of questions and some of them—most of them I answered, a few I haven’t, but I’ve got to tell you—there’s one thing I told you I wish I had not.” f

            Not sure that the OR makes a difference – Forrest DID correct it – Here is Forrest’s correction: “Forrest Fire
            on February 6, 2015 at 3:45 pm said:
            You are right Ed, that New Mexico tourism video is getting a lot of exposure. I did not intend for my comment about pinon nuts to be a clue, and certainly no one should believe I was trying to say the treasure is hidden in New Mexico. Shame on me for saying that.” f

            Hope that this clears the air – JDA

          • JDA provided the pinon nut quote from the NM Tourism video, and ff’s response/correction here on HoD (6 feb 15).

            There was also another response/correction from ff (a day earlier) on HoD.

            ****** Forrest Fire on February 5, 2015 at 11:22 am said:

            Halogetter, I just watched that New Mexico Tourism video again and must say that I didn’t say what I was thinking. You cannot smell a pinon nut, but those who pick them know that in doing so you get pine pitch all over your hands, and pine pitch smells about the same no matter what kind of pine tree you are talking about. Looking back I think I wanted to say I could smell pine needles, not pinon nuts. Sorry I kicked a hornet’s nest with that comment. There is no clue there. Incidentally, when I get pine pitch on my hands I rub butter on the spots and that solves the problem.
            Of course then I have trouble getting the butter off. f ******

            Jake

          • dejoka wrote:
            “I never thought I had to believe everything I said” -ff

            “Believe nothing you hear, and only one half that you see” -Edgar Allen Poe, “The System of Dr. Tarr and Prof. Fether”

        • I think you (JDA, et al) are misinterpreting what McKendree was trying to say re: Pinion Nuts and elevation; or at least, how I interpreted it.

          I think limiting to the range of the actual Pinion Pine is folly per FF’s clarification on it being a mistake. That it is a potential slip because of association with an arid climate or mental ties to a narrower elevation range is the part I find interesting.

          • Can I ask you a couple of questions FMC? Do you mean that it is more noteworthy that he made the second statement to not limit the search to only areas where pinyons grow?

            He made an off the cuff statement about what he smells but didn’t limit anything by using “or”, only to turn around and ensure that he didn’t exclude an area based on the pinyon being a native species. That is my interpretation and that is relevant…somehow…to something…maybe.

            🙂

          • daWiser:

            I think McKendree’s thought is interesting in that it’s a different interpretation of the Pinion Pine “slip” that’s not directly refuted by FF’s “not intended to be a clue” comment.

            I think his retraction eliminates the Pinion Pine range as a limiting factor to the search area, but there’s some merit in considering the other possible associated slip interpretations as per McKendree’s thought (at the very least, you can consider it from a confirmation bias perspective which is fun, if not necessarily helpful).

            If he associates Pinion Pines with arid climates and slips in conflating an arid climate at the TC location for an arid climate where Pinion Pines grow, then there’s a potential nugget of hint there. Though, TBH, I find this aspect of it more of a reach simply for the fact that most of the arid climate in the 4 states overlaps with the arid climates of the Pinion Pine range.

            I find the elevation link more interesting. If FF is aware of the normal range of Pinion Pine tree growth (kind of a stretch, but I think he would be to some extent) and conflates the approximate elevation of the TC (something I definitely think he knows) and mistakenly overlaps the two in describing the TC location… well ~7,500 feet as an elevation ceiling is a lot different than 10,200 feet.

            It’s still probably a reach in that you have to assign subconscious intent to what is probably a simple mistake. If a solve led me to 9,000 feet, I’d still check it out so I wouldn’t rate this interpretation of the Pinion statement as anything earth-shattering, but I do find it interesting.

            So thanks for sharing it, McKendree.

          • dawiser…very clever approach to that comment. It was speculated as you present it a couple of times, although none of the ideas really gained much momentum. I think Fenn was quick to retract because it is obvious he was reading the comments from folks on the blogs and right away the different “limiting” comments gave him enough info to realize his error. Clever of Fenn to keep tabs and see where his comments lead folks. And…I agree…there is something noteworthy in there.

        • @ JDA = I do see the debate about very close and close a bit differently than you. I agree that “very close” is nearer than saying “close”, but, when used in conjunction with a negative (in this case the word not) one should look at “not very close” as being farther away than “close” because it is the opposite extreme. If we substitute exceedingly for very, the distinction is a bit clearer IMO.

          Close – exceedingly close – IT – not close – not exceedingly close

          The above uses IT as the subject, then shows how I see the affirmative and the negative statements using the given words.

          Another example to help clarify(?).

          Skinny = Thin
          Not Skinny = fat
          Very skinny = super thin
          Not very skinny = super fat

          One more monkey wrench to consider when FF says what he does about “not very close”—such could still be true if Indulgence sits right on such trail—then it is neither close or very close because it is right on the trail.

          Gotta love TTOTC

          IMO

          • An interesting perspective – Good luck my friend. We are all correct, until proven wrong. Keep a thinkin’ – JDA

          • Interesting.

            I would equate “not skinny” with average and “not very skinny” probably as the same. I think “not very skinny” is an odd phrasing so maybe it’s not a one-to-one comparison.

    • Right On!! I agree with your comments that animal trails, waterfalls, etc are fair game. Also that close proximity is ambiguous in terms of existing trails. I also agree regarding the supposition that other clues might be outside the elevation limits of 5,000 feet and 10,200 feet elevation, but still relevant.

  33. Hello Fellow Searchers,

    For my past solves I have relied on clues I found on GE. Now I realize some of those clues, no matter how compelling, were not visible from the ground. So I have started over. I now focus on finding it the way the unemployed man from Texas would find it, along with his kids and wife. Also, Forrest has suggested in the past to show the poem to your kids. Get them involved, etc.

    The poem is like a map, if you have the correct place WWWH. I still have the same general search area, and I believe I have found the first clue. In a few days I plan to drive to that exact location, and then follow the clues directly from the ground. I will try to be the guy in the pickup with the kids and wife, and let my imagination work like a child’s (if I can pull that off).

    Forrest said recently, “Simplify if you can. That’s good advice.”

    Besides a good map and the poem, he has also mentioned that the searcher needs to have good resolve, and use their imagination. Now I am beginning to realize that I have to listen to him, instead of rushing out to the middle of the maze trying to find Indulgence. My impulsive behavior is my greatest downfall. At least I am facing that fact.

    In our last outing, we eliminated 2 big (false) clues, but I had to do this to get to the place I am at now. By eliminating several false assumptions, I hope to get to the correct locations. As I said, I truly believe I have the first clue nailed down, so I must start over with a new plan. I am humbled by the entire thing, “The Chase”. It is not easy as Forrest has stated, but not impossible. I take heart in that.

    I am calmly waiting for my next trip, with my imagination fired up. Begin at the beginning!

    Good Fortune to you all,

    Franklin

    • Franklin, I suggest that you don’t go BOTG searching for the TC unless you
      believe you have at least 7 clues correct. And you should show that solve to
      some trusted friend(s) for feedback. Colorado has some beautiful sights. IMO.

      • Yes I agree to an extent. I have 4 clues identified. 7 might be a stretch from home, but good luck with that.

        I have seen a lot of my native state. Yes there are many amazing places to visit. We recently hiked in to the Eagle Rock Shelter near Hotchkiss, Co. It is an ongoing archeological dig with some amazing findings. Beautiful hike.

        I have many hundreds of other locations for super great photos. When I search for the TC, my mindset is much different. Focused of course.

        Good Luck All

        Franklin

    • Until the chest is found, the number of clues we can find sitting at home is anyone’s guess really. All we know is that we at least need to know the location of the first clue. Its better to be BOTG knowing only the location of the first clue than BOTG knowing the location of 9 incorrect clues.

      Good luck Franklin.

      • Aaron, ~ ‘Its better to be BOTG knowing only the location of the first clue than BOTG knowing the location of 9 incorrect clues.’

        The first part as failed miserably [location of it], The second part; if you ‘know’ their incorrect, why go in the first place?
        *[maybe it’s better to know why being on site didn’t help much]

        The number of clues we can ‘find’ at home is only a guess/theory. The number of clue’s references we need to find is “9”. What we ‘know’ is, we need all the clues to complete the challenge.

        tighterfocus,
        You can’t make the cake without all the ingredients. The bear, of any color, won’t like it.

        • Nobody would go if they knew ahead of time that their clue references were incorrect.

          My point is that we don’t know how the winning solution is exactly going to play out. I have a hunch that you have to understand a bigger picture solution to the poem and at least have the first few clues solved. Having the majority solved before leaving does make us feel good. It get’s us out and in the wood, but what has that proved to accomplish? Nothing but good vacations so far.

          • That’s my point Aaron, and why I was using your post to help make my point… I know exactly what you were implying.

            Only my point is… we need to have a great understanding of how things play-out [the process] before jumping the gun because we may have a good idea of one or two of the first clues. [but I can’t take the credit for that thought, fenn has implied it in many comments].

            Information that we have received over the years won’t lead us to the chest… but they are food for thought…. ‘suggestive thinking’ if you will.
            We can play silly debates about what fenn meant by ; he followed the clues when he hid the chest. but when you add in other information stated as well, such as; there is no other way… you need all the ingredients… you can’t skip a clue [ that also indicates having a single wrong clue might burn the cake, so start over with ingredient # 1 ] because we need all the clues in the order fenn intended them.

            The real question isn’t about what a clue reference could be… it’s might be more about what should we do with those references once they are deciphered. Which I would believe fall more in line with; It’s not a matter of trying, It’s a matter of thinking comment. Adding, “planning and Observing”

            The same idea even applies to the word ‘decipher’… some force coding into a thought or theory… personally I really don’t care if someone want to go that direction… but for the conversational idea of chatting about all this… Decipher means; Interpret, interpretation of information, comprehend, understand… But ya never gonna get some to believe it could be that simple. Even when the say; they simplified there solve by breaking down letter in a word or used the L&C coding, etc. because fenn used the word ‘decipher’ and in Plain English that mean to decode a message… But I digress.

            Anyway, I used your post and picked on it a little, just to add my BSing to the conversation… hope ya didn’t mind.

  34. CRM,
    You said, “how big of an area does the poem point to? A single state? A county? A square mile? An acre? 12 feet by 12 feet? 10 inches by 10 inches? How big of an area, exactly, are we expected to search?”

    I once believed the poem led us to a specific area in a specific state. I no longer believe that. I now believe that the poem describes the area but does not take us there step by step. I believe we actually have to find that place ourselves, that the poem does not take us. I think the poem reminds us “the answers I already know” and we must use that knowledge to find the TC. That includes finding the blaze using “answers I already know”, that the poem refers to.

    IMO

      • Good comparison, although the area the poem points to does change
        in size, to a larger degree, compared to change(s) in size of the blaze.

        All IMO.

    • “You should start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively to the treasure” & “The treasure will be found by someone who followed the clues to the location” – FF

      Sounds like it leads to a very specific spot via very specific means to me.

    • “That’s right joseph, you should start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively to the treasure. Hints in the book are not that organized.f”

      Fenn implies step by step.

      • Ah! but a step by step process doesn’t always mean hiking point to point, in the conventional use of hiking.
        In a small area a step by step could refer to pacing.
        In any area a triangulation or same method idea, can be a step to step process.
        fenn has give comments such as; put on foot down and stepped on it to get to the next, that is how i did it. That comment alone can go in different thought patterns including simple hiking point to point., yet there are other comments that may help in a correct thinking process. Such as; two trip taken, walking less than a few miles. But that doesn’t give up much either, by itself. Then we have he followed the clue and there is no other way to do it to his knowledge.

        If we think about it… two trip should be cut in 1/2 for any possible distance that can occur in a less than a few miles. leaving approx. 1 1/2 miles for a relative difference, from car to hide. But what that ‘might’ imply is a full area of coverage for the clues… it may also imply that the clues are even closer IF, we add another comment, Marry the clues to a place…

        The point is; when first read, the poem sounds like it can be that clues might be separated by miles. Yet not with all the ATF’s and suggested thoughts… adding in don’t go where an 80 yr old can’t … It is quite possible that the less than [ the apprx estimate ] of 1 1/2 mile could be to simply hike to the solve location where we stay an figure out how the clues are contiguous in nature.
        So a step by step process as hiking / stomping point to point may sound simple at first… but the other suggestion are just as plausible, and even, more likely… Unless you want to add, trains, boats, cars, horses, quads, planes… because it makes more sense to your own personal solve.

        Or did you mean something else by ‘ fenn implies step by step’ CRM?

        • Seeker,

          I think the step by step is mental rather than physical – marrying clues to places on a map.

  35. Why did I decide to look up the definition of halt one more time? Now I’m just conflicted!

    I used my favorite online etymology dictionary and it pulled up a synonym of halt.
    “Rein c. 1300, from rein (n.). Figurative extension “put a check on” first recorded 1580s. Related: Reined; reining. To rein up “halt” (1550s) is from the way to make a horse stop by pulling up on the reins”

    Well, this just complicates my whole process because of two quotes in TTOTC that I think are important. I’ve had these quotes marked in my book since day one but didn’t consider that they might relate to halt.

    Back I go to The Tem Cafe’Caper.
    As I have mentioned before, I really believe there is some significance to Canyon St where potholes (kettle formations) were filled with water that splashed as cars went by. FF was selling newspapers when he sat down and his boss drove by and saw him sitting on the sidewalk and told him he was “canned”. He says he didn’t know what that meant until his mother told him he’d been fired. Then he gets a new job washing dishes. That is where he developed a dislike of the giant kettles and that’s why “I don’t eat brown gravy anymore”. Well, I really believe there is an underlying story here talking about kettle formations and water washing over them. So, its during this story that FF apprehended one of grandma’s hot pies and ate it behind a pine tree. He says that when Frosty (manager) caught him there was a severe scene. I picture a storm. Especially because when FF found out he’d been fired from his first job, he just stood there while the sun went behind a cloud. Now he says that grandma took him in the frozen meat locker and told him that when the boss gave Frosty and inch, he thought he’d become a ruler. I mulled this over for a really long time trying to figure out what it was really saying. The phrase I’m more familiar with is to give someone an inch and they take a mile. A ruler? What the heck? And then I realized that a ruler REINS/RAINS, which fits with the severe scene and the fact that the manager’s name was Frosty. So does this story hint at the fact that halt could mean rein?

    And then we have the story of Looking for Lewis & Clark. First of all, FF’s horse was named Lightning. Donnie and FF get lost in the mountains and they follow a stream that “got narrower and narrower and deper and deper until it develped vertical sides that nothing could get through but water. This statement, “where nothing could get through but water” got highlighted in my book the first time I read through it. I began to wonder where water could go that other things could not. It relates to the solve I’m working on and another that I’ve kind of half abandoned but might go back to now that I’ve discovered the connection between “halt” and “rein”. After being lost for a while, FF says “we finally loosened our grip on the reins and the horses took us to a dirt road”. I’ve had that highlighted since my first read also. Why when they let loose of the reins, did the horses take them home?

    Do the reins/rains have something to do with the correct solve?

  36. Just curious if anyone has ever included Wyoming’s Red Desert in a solve? It would be a place where warm waters halt if the definition of halt is limp or if the deinfition is “rein in”(pull up on the rains).

      • Pdenver,
        My current solve is not the desert. I am on a little side track just now. It is interesting to me that the Red Desert of Woming is in an endorphic basin. It seldom rains there, but if it did, the water would not drain from the basin. It is a closed basin. This basin is considered to be a “hole” in the Continental Divide (think “how deep is a hole”). Would a closed basin be like the story of FF telling the teacher that his eyes were open but his lids were closed?

        Its considered to be part of the RMs. I dont think its out of the realm of possibility that the TC could be there.

        Im just considering possibilities.

        • Yes, the Great Divide Basin has been considered as a possible WWWH before (the Red Desert is part of that basin).

          (endorheic basin is the term, incidentally, not endorphic)

          Jake

          • FB – I was looking at a solve that used the basin as my wwwh but that was a bit reverse engineered from my hob, I still like it because of its uniqueness, and there are still ‘many’ basins north of Santa Fe. I’ve been following your geology ideas and would love to chat off-blog, I think there is another ‘theme’ you might consider. My email can be found here in the comments: https://dalneitzel.com/2017/07/06/wind-river-canyon/
            If you have time for another rabbit hole look up George Frison no secret he and Forrest were buds, I’d go so far as to say possibly a hero to FF much like dabich.

  37. Forgot to mention that I-80 goes right through the Red Desert in Wyoming. Forrest frequently has mentioned that he hid the chest near the age of 80.

    • my, my, Flutterby, you certainly are an Eager Beaver…..ol Seeker may need to pray to THOR that you don’t get the chest before he does!!! LOL!!

      Good Luck to Ya, Flybutter

      • Flutterby reminds me of the main character in a book series I read as a child… Freddy the Detective. Nothing got by Freddy! Where I’m more of a BloodHound, and a little like Scoobie Doo… ok maybe not ‘like’ Scoobie Doo, but I do love snacks.
        Oh! and I never pray to Thor… Pffft… The BlackWidow is my goddess.
        Did I mention I’m a bit of a Hound Dog?

  38. now that you said that morning all. Please Remember to stay safe out there. The cartoon that reminds me of this quest would be the road runner Fenn as the road runner we as the coyote’s were never going to catch him folks how is every one running free and having fun I hope I know I am. have a good day all beep’ beep’

  39. Thanks for the quotes JDA. I seem to recall that when I first started this chase, there was a quote circulating that stated that FFs originally intention was to go out into the desert to die with the TC. Is there an actual quote in which FF stated that and mentioned desert?

  40. In response to Seeker’s statement “Anyway, I used your post and picked on it a little, just to add my BSing to the conversation… hope ya didn’t mind.”

    Not at all. Any discussion that could be productive toward finding the chest is why we’re here. My BOTG starts Monday and have a spot where all the clues reference a small area. I am happy about that because that type of solution seems to make the most sense to me given all that we know. Still, I know I have to be ready to make changes on site in order to not walk past all of the clues. Having all of the clue locations and spot planned out in advance is great, but we know getting close to the chest in the past has been fortuitous. I’ll look for opportunities to make changes based on what I find on location.

  41. Not necessarily an actual quote, but one attributed to him in an article by Margie Goldsmith:

    ****** But the real reason he buried this treasure is because he developed cancer, and after a long bout of chemo and radiation, the doctors told him the cancer could come back. Fenn, worried the cancer would recur, said to himself,

    “If it comes back, I’m going to grab a pocketful of sleeping pills, take a treasure chest filled with treasure and a copy of my bio; and I’m going to walk out into the desert. Sometime they’ll find my bones and the treasure, but my bio will be inside the box, so at least they’ll know who I was.”

    The cancer remained in remission so Fenn, who said, “I just got tired of waiting,” decided to go ahead and bury the treasure somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe. ******

    (tarryscant.com is a great resource for questions like this, not complete, but easy to use, and has links to actual source articles and interviews for most quotes covered)

    Jake

    • (sorry, I failed to “reply-attach” this to Flutterbee’s question up above about ff going “into the desert to die with the TC”)

    • A lot of “holes” in the Tarry Scant…there are a vast amount of comments and articles not there that contain little snippets that kind of tie some things together more clearly. At any rate…the desert is out.
      This mutt believes that there have been nothing but biscuits baked for eight years and looks like another year of the same. There are some high hopefuls out and about and more on the way…but canasta seems to be in vogue.
      I believe the entire poem…short of retrieval, needs to be deciphered before heading out. Taking the trips and scurrying around is fun for awhile, however, at some point common sense should steer folks from heading out in Bisquick mode.
      Where’s Travis “kettlekorn” Brown? I’ve been waiting for his story upon return.
      Aaron have a good outing and keep yer powder dry!
      Seeker…I posted over in the Winston Churchill thread from 2016 where you were going to try a riddle poem….how’d it go? That was 2 years ago bud…it must be a doozy! Looking forward to it. Scooby Doo ! Ruh Ro !

      • @ J A Kraven – thanks for the nice comment on tarryscant.com we hope it’s been helpful in your search.

        @ken – we are always looking for articles we have missed – and we know there are a lot of them. Please send missing ones our way, and we’ll be happy to add them to the library.

        Cheers!
        Cris L

        • Hey Cris…don’t get me wrong…I truly love your site as a quick go to…very easy to use and definitely has a ton in there. Thanks for your effort…

          • No offense taken at all. There is always more to find. New quotes that appear on HoD and MW, we wait a while to bring those over. Don’t want to steal traffic.

            Horrible shameless plug – I published my first and very flawed solve on Tarryscant. Lots of newbie mistakes made and hope it helps other noobs.
            Good luck with your search!

          • BURP ! Thanks Cris…I wolfed that one down quick. There have probably been thousands of folks in that general area over the years. I think it is probably still popular. Funny how folks push on even though it is an obvious bustaroo.
            When I make trips to the Rockies on Fenn vacay…I always have many side trips planned out…heck, might as well.
            Good luck with your new “solve” Cris…

        • Thanks for Tarry Scant Chris! I really like your site and have used it numerous times. I read the solve too. Reminds me of my first solve with some decent logic topped off with some confirmation bias. Fun times. Dave

          • @ Dave from KC – glad it’s helpful!

            @Ken – I kept going on even though I knew it was a busteroo to have the sense of satisfaction that I made it to my destination. I don’t live in the search area, so traveling to the RM’s and not making it to my final spot would have left me terribly unsatisfied, even though I concluded about 1/2 way there that I was in the wrong spot! Purely psychological I suppose. Good luck out there!

          • Hey Cris…I get it ! I’m the same way…all or nothing. Keep searching and have a good time out there Cris !

      • Two years ago? Um, I’ll need to take a trip down memory lane. Churchill thread ya say? Maybe I’d better book a boat passage to find that one.
        If it was the Medicine Wheel idea?… I’ll never figure it out.
        Wait! is Scooby Doo a hint? I get him mixed up with Astro some times…. Pluto and Goofy always messes with my head too. No, not that Goofy, the other Goofy.

  42. Ok so I’m in the poem it says “and take it in the canyon down,” but then in the same stanza it also says put in below the home of brown,” And there is a canyon in the Rocky Mountains that is named Brown canyon. Plus when it says “Where warm water halt,” could mean the river that flows through the canyon. So what I’m guessing is that the starting point could be somewhere in Brown canyon along the river.

    • **** The Fox – ” . . . there is a canyon in the Rocky Mountains that is named Brown canyon. Plus when it says “Where warm water halt,” could mean the river that flows through the canyon. So what I’m guessing is that the starting point could be somewhere in Brown canyon along the river.” ****

      Hey-O, T Fox –

      Off the top of my head, there are two in Wyoming and two in Colorado. Probably more in the whole search area.

      In Wyo, one is a ways south of Sinks Canyon (a popular spot), and one is on the southeastern rim of the Great Divide Basin. Curiously, there’s a little endorheic lake near each of those canyons, and both lakes are named Dry Lake on USGS maps.

      In Colorado, the prominent one is Browns Canyon on the Arkansas River. The other, John Brown Canyon, is on the Dolores near Gateway. Both of these Colorado BCs have figured in multiple searches you can find here on Dal’s site.

      I’ve been around John Brown Canyon on the Dolores (it’s near Gateway), and the one in the Great Divide Basin (it’s a salty sunbaked spot north of Rawlins). But not in search mode.

      Jake

  43. I’m curious if anyone has gotten together a handful of potential solves for WWWH in the same general location (within 10-20 miles of each other) and just gone out with the poem to each one and started trying to solve it. Sitting at our computers, we have so much at our disposal, we can easily convince ourselves of each clue solution.

    I’m just wondering if this would be a more logical (though time consuming) approach to finding the chest. Take the poem, some snacks and water, outdoor gear, and go walking around to various WWWH possibilities. If I had the time, I think this would be my preferred approach.

    Solve WWWH with 20, 30, 100 different possibilities, drive to one, look around, check your maps, then go exploring. No dice. Go to #2. and so on. IDK. Good luck to everyone.

    • That’s a process of eliminations, dewiser.
      Folks complain enough about time away, money spent, or the chest was found because they didn’t find it. [with few exceptions to the rule]

      I don’t think sitting at a computer will help much either… all that does [ has far as help ] is the capability of chatting with others who are involved in the same interest and might spark a thought….or look up something we may need a refresher course on, or something mentioned in the book we may have no knowledge of at all… simple example; where in YSP is the Geyser Basin or what is the route the YS river takes. Or who the head of the Smithsonian is, just in case.

      Although, your suggestion is being done exactly like that… be it, all at one time, or over a period of years … in the same location. Some with the same wwh.

      You said ~’ just wondering if this would be a more logical (though time consuming) approach to finding the chest. Take the poem, some snacks and water, outdoor gear, and go walking around to various WWWH possibilities.’

      Which fenn has warned not to do. If you don’t have WWWH nailed down to go. If you don’t have certainty of the location the path will not be direct. It’s not a matter of trying it’s a matter of thinking…So I don’t understand how your suggestion “seems logical” at all. If serious about attempting to “solve” the challenge.

      Even though I like to do just that myself… just go… with no care in the world, and not worry about time.

      • Seeker,

        I agree fully with you about the paragraph you posted, “Which fenn has warned not to do. If you don’t have WWWH nailed down to go. If you don’t have certainty of the location the path will not be direct. It’s not a matter of trying it’s a matter of thinking…So I don’t understand how your suggestion “seems logical” at all. If serious about attempting to “solve” the challenge.”

        Staying home and play canasta is the best bet, if one does not nail down wwwh, why go! This also applies to the rest of the poem, everything must be nailed down, thustly saving time and money. But people still need to get out away from computers, cell phones and work.

        That’s my thoughts.

        • If things are “nailed down” in order that they don’t disappear,
          then some may be “weighted” down (i.e., with a paperweight)
          for a similar reason.

          Some may be taped down, glued down, or stapled down, hmm?

          IMO

    • I did something similar to this the first time I searched, with the idea of having a nice vacation mostly. I used about 5 or 6 WWWH possibilities. While I didn’t think I had a good chance of finding it I did learn about the area and had a nice vacation with my family.

    • Some have referred to this as a “brute force” type of solve. Search enough places and you just may find the chest, though FF has said that “no one will happen upon the chest”.

      Seems expensive in both time and money, but if you have enough of both, why not try (part of TTOTC is to get out and see the splendor of nature, after all)?

      • Bowmarc, I was thinking about that statement, “no one will happen upon the chest”, and thinking thousands of years in the future. Most, when they think about it, think that’s when the chest may be found. But don’t those people have the same chance as us? Or they think that someone will stumble upon it, like the Rosetta Stone. Maybe there will be so many people that housing may impede on the chest area.
        We all have the same chance, and we won’t stumble upon it, so what is it that the future people have on finding instead of us? (Sorry Bow, I’m not asking you, just a general thought).
        With all the possible changes within that time, what can we say that will stay the same, no matter what. The answer to that is what will solve the poem. Is it buried or hidden so well that nobody will stumble upon it? He has said it is buried, was it a slip or just him annoyed of always being asked?
        I happen to think that coordinates are what does not change, not saying it’s right, just what I would think. My point is, if it is not to be stumbled upon, last thousands of years, and the answer is in a poem, what does not change no matter what?
        His gut feeling is that it will be found soon. Somebody either has been blogging correctly to give him that feeling or has written to him and given their area. But still, nobody has come forward. Maybe somebody hasn’t gone out to retrieve, or maybe they just haven’t pinpointed the spot, either way, the “brute force” type of solve does not seem like it’s the way to go, especially after this comment. There is a answer, so, why not go get it? IDK, but I don’t think it will be found soon. I can guess it is far out in the middle of nowhere as possible, won’t be stumbled upon thinking, and future, plus walking from the first clue seems like the path, what place is out there that will not change? Thoughts….

        • Charlie;

          You bring up an interesting question. “what place is out there that will not change?”

          This is going to sound silly, but how about a “Rabbit Hole?”
          We talk about going down rabbit holes all of the time – What if there were a BIG rabbit hole somewhere that Forrest found? Most would walk right past it. Perhaps pause for a few moments wondering what “critter” might have made it home – but common sense would keep one from crawling in to find out. Bear den – Wolverine den – Badger den? All critters I wouldn’t want to meet up with in a confined space.

          I know, it is not in a cave or a mine – but would a “Critter” den (or like “hole” in the ground) fall into this category?

          When I say “Rabbit Hole” I do not mean a tunnel dug in the ground – probably more like a “Chasm” in some rocks. This would remain mostly unchanged through time. Think about a small “Kiva-like” hole in the ground.

          Sounds crazy, but who knows? It just might work???

          Well, here I go chasing another “Rabbit Hole” – 🙂 JDA

          • @ Charlie & JDA –

            IMO:

            FF found the hiding spot at some point in his life, and what led him there (presumably) were his adventures outdoors. With that in mind, I cannot fully discount the possibility that another curious and/or adventurous person won’t also wander into/onto that exact spot at some point, however infinitesimal the chances are. I think we agree that it would be much easier to find if one knows about TTOTC and solves FF’s poem as TTOTC was intended rather than happening into a secluded spot in the RM’s and just happening to lift a black colored flat rock that you think it will look good on your mantle only to find that by doing so you have revealed a 12 x 12 bronze box loaded with treasure underneath (used as an example of a “tarry scant” for solving the poem as some searchers believe such line to mean).

            JDA’s rabbit hole theory has a broad application to the search and/or spot where Indulgence is secreted away and possibly answers your line of questioning in that regard, Charlie.

            TTOTC is not impervious to time, nor the myriad unforeseen circumstances that both mother nature and man-made processes can bring to the environment that currently exists where Indulgence is secreted. Hopefully FF did pick a “rabbit hole” spot that will keep Indulgence safe for as long is takes for someone to find it all based upon the clues he has given us.

    • daWiser – I think this is similar to how Cynthia Meachum operates. I can’t speak to the effectiveness of it (of course nothing that anyone has done thus far to find the chest has proven effective), but if you have the time and the means, it is certainly a much better way to spend your time than sitting in front of a computer or a TV.

      There is a lot to be said for (by?) someone who gets out into the Rocky Mountains to hike and explore, and I can almost guarantee that the time spent doing it will not be regretted… whether they find the chest or not.

      I will admit that I am a bit envious of all the places that Cynthia has been and what she has seen. But lacking the time, I cannot do what she does.

      As far as it being a good approach to actually finding the chest? I am not convinced that it is the best approach based upon things f has said over the years and considering people have been so close but completely missed identifying the later clues.

      I think that the person who finds the chest will do so because they figured out how the blueprint (poem) works or is structured and understand how the lines in the poem must be deciphered in order to figure out and properly identify each location/geographical place that the clues refer to. Short of doing this, I am sure that searchers will continue to go right past the chest, not knowing they were so close.

      • I will have to look into Cynthia Meachum. I’m curious about her adventures now.
        I definitely never meant to imply by my illogical logic that an oaf with little to no regard for the poem or the dangers of the mountains should just go off and keep their eyes peeled for anything bronze-y. I simply meant that since not all the clues can be solved from a computer (presumably ) and that BOTG are mandatory at some point to find the chest, why not go out with a strong working knowledge of the poem, zero ignorance about one’s own frailty, and have a walk or 40. See the mountains, explore the vast states in question, and look for the treasure that way.

        I don’t have the time or money to just take off from work and go do it ( though maybe in August for a few days…), but some do, and who would have a better chance of finding it? Would you choose someone spending hours searching and chatting and meandering in and out of rabbit holes or someone who is doing some research but mostly out in the woods looking?

        Which would a kid prefer? Maybe that’s why they would have an advantage, they’d be out exploring instead of inside at the computer exploring. IDK. I just theorize…poorly it seems.

        LOL

      • daWiser: I think it will take a balanced approach — lots of thinking/solving time, and probably at least a handful of actual (failed) BOTG searches. I envy Cynthia’s ability to make scores of searches, but based on those for which she revealed her poem solution methodology, I came away thinking she should probably spend more time thinking about alternative ways of reading the poem and less time looking at maps.

    • That is a dream come true for most of us. Every day in the Rockies. But the reality is much different for most, so we do what we can to try and solve it.

    • DaWiser,
      Fenn has said there are many WWH in the Rockies. My solution has BIWWWH as an animal crossing caution sign, so there are thousands of them in the Rockies. So if there are very many WWH’s your approach would take years to implement. Another detail I’ll throw in is that BIWWWH contains both the instructions to solve that line and the clue, IMO.

        • Aaron,
          I’ve been working on a response to your question but so far none of my attempts sounded deranged enough for my taste. You’re giving me conniptions I tell ya. So here goes. You asked for it after all.

          My approach is to take the first three words, “begin it where”, as instructions for solving the rest of the line. I see two similar ways to unravel these instructions. Either read it while putting a pause in the last word “begin it wh’ ere”, sounding like begin it wi’ air like you might with a fake british accent. Or put the “it” between the w and h of where to get withere, pronounced as with air. Same result.

          How do you begin with air? The letter H is the aspirate sound in the English language. The one you use an out breath, air, to create. So if you begin with H, the rest of the line reads “harm haters halt”. Not specific to an animal crossing sign, but with a bit of poetic license I’ll take it as a metaphor. In my solution there is one of these signs at the location where this line of the poem would be (of course these signs are everywhere so that in itself doesn’t prove much).

          All my opinion of course. Feel free to like it or hate it but that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

          • Interesting, thanks for sharing.

            Though this one seems a little odd, who knows what the winning solution will be. Good luck!

      • JW: an animal crossing sign that will last 100 years, let alone 1000 or 10000? I support Cynthia’s position: none of the clues are associated with man-made structures.

        • And yet we have to balance that out with these words from f…

          The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia.

          • Note that this quote refers to “clues”, and the “places” they refer to. Some folks take the marry the clues to a “place” as meaning ” clues are in one small place.

          • Fundamental,
            Yep, the need to balance out our thoughts to fenn’s possible intent.
            Example; the Maya and Inca empires were hidden by growth in a ‘very’ short time span.. weed, vines, shrub, trees and dirt turned them into hills and unrecognizable as buildings. I don’t think today searcher need to worry about that…

            But, for thought of that Q&A… the idea might fall in line with the natural movement within the RM’s leaving “precisely” in questioned. And making it more difficult / harder to locate the chest in future times. This idea screams an alignment of sorts might be need by using the ‘physical’ clues references [ as ken implied ‘places’ ] Not all the clues seem to be or even need to be ‘physical’ places… some appear to be directions and/or instructions… leaving the idea that only some of the clues might be affected by movement and changing the “accuracy” of “precise”. and leaving the idea that all the clues may not be 9 location… no matter the size of the area.

            Personally I see three locations of a physical nature. WWWH, hoB, HLnWH… with the exception of what we are looking for… the blaze.
            If that is a reasonable assumption and one out of the three or all three move slightly [feet, yards] will that have an impact of the discovery? or even the blaze itself [ movement ] throwing off the finding of the chest [ lets say by 12′ plus ] over time?
            It seemed important for fenn to mention it… so I for one, need to consider it.

        • Zap,
          ‘I think’ it safe to say any structure that is not a natural support, but made/built, is out of the running. Example; a stone arch is a natural structure. A beaver dam is a made/built structure.
          fenn was asked about the wwwh comment not being a dam and then asked about a beaver dam… saying, “that a dam.” So, does {not associate with} a structure have to be only man-made?

          If correct… That seems to eliminate other type of things as well. Is a statue a structure? Is the memorial wall a structure? A bridge over troubled waters is a structure etc etc.
          My thoughts, as you implied about time… all physical clue’s references should be of the existing natural landscape that has been around and should be around for an extended amount of time, line of thinking [ short of any major event that would change the landscape ]

          I’ll give an example of thought.. a possible way the book could help with a “the clueS” but not answer what they are, and relate to the idea of ‘not associated with a structure’;
          ‘meek’ is in the poem, and we have the story of beaver trapping and the time of when it was a way of life in the RM’s. The Joe Meek’s journey to escape Indians explain how he need to travel through areas he was not familiar with. [ the area itself may not be helpful, nor the reason he was going to it etc etc ] and more about how he had to maneuver through an unknown location.

          No structures around, street signs, roads, or even beaten paths… he had to rely on the landscape, such as [ for example] hiking a mountain just to get his bearings for a pass to follow solely by natural features.
          This is my kinda of helpful hint and not directed to aid a treasure hunter, and only a subliminal message, line of thinking on how the poem ‘might’ be read as.

          In a 1000 years or even longer… the only reasonable possibility for the clues in the poem to be workable is landscape features that can withstand the test of time as best as possible. A comprehensive knowledge of geography might help in this situation.. yet still not give up the clue references… that is still our job to figure out.

          The thing is… *if we don’t fully know what “structure” means… think and analyze…* a beaver dam could have been in the running… well, until fenn cleared up that possibility as wrong… Only that was our job to understand that in the first place.

          *It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking.*

          • Seeker,
            When FF was asked about a beaver dam, didnt he rule that out stating its a dam. He didnt call it a structure did he? So I dont think we can catagorize it as a structure unless Im misunderstanding FFs answer (which I might be doing)

          • Flutterby,

            Apples and oranges. What I’m saying is we need to think the right thoughts and possibilities of all the comments… it still amazes mean that some will hang on to their solves so tight they can’t open their thoughts to all that is being said.

            If a structure is a structure that was created by building it… then any structure may not be involved with any clue… no matter what built it.
            Do we really need to wait for, or ask fenn to clarify more… or is it our jobs to figure it out by the information that he has given out already?

            If hoB is not associated with a structure, because the “treasure” is not associated with a structure… I see the comments [ all comments related ] as; none of the clues are associated in any way with a structure… because ‘all the clues are/and must be considered ‘associated’ with the “treasure”‘.

            If a pole is set into place… erected for a purpose, built for a reason… I’m ruling it out as associated with a structure, because it was made to hold the lines it hold.
            You can do as you please… but for me, that’s a rabbit hole, pole.

          • Fenn’s original comments using the word ‘structure” was in reference to no need to dig up outhouses. That remained consistent for years. His comment about “dams” was to level playing field and clearly stated “any dam”…which includes a beaver dam as he clearly stated in the EEDS interview. There was also a Q in reference to “structure” and related to ALL nine clues where Fenn stated that’s right…and look up the word structure. Seems fairly clear that Fenn has eliminated the possibility of ANY structures being involved…especially adding in Cynthia’s contribution.

  44. I just stumbled upon this.

    But as you frisk and refrisk the poem for its meaning, keep a few more clues in mind: some people have suggested the treasure is under water, plopped in a river where Fenn loved to fish or swim. They are wrong, I know, for in a moment of exuberance, Fenn said so. He told me the chest is “exposed” to rain and snow, and could be scorched in a forest fire. He told me the box, which is just 10 inches by 10 inches, is unlocked—suggesting it’s someplace where it is unlikely to be toppled or otherwise thrown open.

    https://www.thedailybeast.com/clues-for-finding-forrest-fenns-buried-treasure-part-2

    Snowmelt and rain can infiltrate ground, but snow cannot. I would infer that the chest is not buried if exposed to snow. This is all second hand from 2013, and I can’t find any record of searchers verifying w/ Fenn if he actually said this. Scorched would certainly imply something as well. It seems like this comment would have caused a stir, or at least it would now if it just came out. Any old timers care to comment?

    • It has been thoroughly flogged to pieces…and so has pretty much everything else. Some like it hot and some like it cold…and most just skim right over the obvious things.

      • Also…Tony Dorkipul has trouble keeping his stories straight… read with caution.

        • Thanks. I searched tarry scant for “hidden” and read all those per your suggestion. Other than the above dubious report, which I gather nobody asked Fenn to confirm or deny, I still conclude it must be buried. It’s not a huge job to dig a hole. He was still burying bells in 2014.

    • Mr Fenn, in relation to the final resting place of the chest, which of the 4 natural elements (Earth, Wind, Water, Fire) would mostly compromise it resting? ~ James

      I know what the question is. I don’t think earth can hurt it, under the right conditions wind might affect it, it’s probably already wet, and look at what fire did to the twin towers. Nature makes her own rules, James, so I try to not be absolute when talking about her.

      • Seeker,

        Interesting, thanks. In the other wet quote(s) he seemed sure it was wet. “Probably already wet” is a curious phrase to use 5 years after hiding it.

        • In one ATF [paraphrasing] How can anything not be wet in the RM’s even if buried 6′ down… there is more to that comment, but that should be enough to get a search on it started

          Another related Q&A;
          Mr. Fenn,

          In your interview with New Mexico True Stories, you mentioned that you know that the treasure is wet. I checked out the date of that interview and it looks like you said that in a February, which could mean that you knew that it had snowed or rained at the site of the treasure chest, or simply because of higher water.

          Now we are in mid-summer, and if we assume that no storms have passed through recently, would you know that the treasure is wet now? ~Thanks, B

          Yes B, physics tells me the treasure is wet. f

          • Well Seeker – One thing is for sure – water (an other things) never flows uphill. That ought to be a hint – It “Ain’t at the top of the hill or mountain ” 🙂 JDA

          • In the mountains, Rockies or otherwise, where does most of water source start?
            I don’t see a hint?
            Add to that; fenn as place a 10,200′ cap, and stated; the chest may not be on top of a mountain but it might be close…
            Now all we need to do is figure out what ‘close’ means?
            Right after we figure out what ‘very close proximity means… or what ‘less than a few miles means’ or from or in my car, or what is and is not a structure, which direction the blaze faces or the obvious distance from that to the treasure… or or or…

            Sorry read your post while thinking of something else and now I forgot what I was thinking in the first place… oh! right.. What the heck does Water Waters Halt mean?
            Ok, I’m back on track

          • In the line where FF said “physics tells me the treasure
            is wet”, he didn’t use the word “chest”. So he could have merely been referring to the location (his very special spot, for example).

            If something is wet, that normally means that it has some water or other liquid on/in the thing.

            This logic strongly suggests that Arizona is wet, even on a hot summer day. So FF’s comment wasn’t much of a clue or hint.

            He was authorized to fly carrying an atomic bomb.
            (Did you know that an atomic blast can be seen from space?)

            FF is no dummy. You should not underestimate him.

            The above is part of my opinion. Yours may differ.

  45. I know Mr Fenn reads this blog occasionally so I am just gonna throw this out there and only he and I will understand………….I believe Mr Fenn wants the treasure found before he passes and more to the fact within the next 5 years or even quicker, and the reason for th I s is that appox within the next 5 to 10 years one of the clues IMO will no longer be valid and will therefore make the treasure practically impossible to find.
    I cannot elaborate I’m afraid buy please trust what I am saying.

    • Well this might be my last post… no matter who has the red button of destruction.

      You can put “I believe or IMO” in front of that comment all day long…. YET,
      IF you have that possible piece of information… then you must be able to solve this …. Be it wwwh, blaze, WH HL or any clue what-so-ever… because with out it the poem’s clues will be lost to all time??
      Naaaa… I’m call BS big time.
      To spout that off, and not be able to discover where the exact clues are, what they are, and the location of the chest, you’re either beyond egotesticle with what ‘you think’ is a perfect solve, or too dumb to figure out the rest with such a golden ticket in your hand.

      But would rather come here and upset the already upset paranoids ones, who wouldn’t know how to travel down life’s road, after the chase end, by saying in a few years ya’ll will never have a chance???
      Geeezusss ya trying to start a dang RIOT!!!

      • I started a post…but deleted it…when this kind of stuff comes up I think back over all of the CRAZY posts over the years. I’m gonna go eat some Tomahawks and taters.

      • Seeker,

        Firstly I’m not spouting off as you put it and its not BS, I knew it wasn’t going to be a popular post, however I telling the truth and Mr Fenn knows it,.
        I have solved the poem but you don’t wanna hear that cause its been said 1000 times before and still no gold! But I will coming to the state’s within the next 6 weeks hopefully but definitely before this search season ends, Mr Fenn is aware of who I am and my solve area and IMO that is where his gut feeling comes from, call BS all you like but as unpopular as my post is trust me I am genuinely trying to help the search community and as mentioned before Mr Fenn would not have known this would happen when he began the Chase.

        • Butch,
          I don’t care about popular or not, who you think you’re trying to convince or attempt help [ when you add nothing to the claim].
          All you tossed out was basically … Hey all run don’t walk, this challenge in a few year will be lost forever.

          You add… fenn is aware if who you are, like that was a confirmation you must be correct… and you’re the reason he blurted out the statement about a gut feeling because you have this golden ticket of information and fenn now knows that.
          You also say fenn wants it found ~ “more to the fact within the next 5 years or even quicker” Because of what you claim …and… for all to trust you.

          Your post was a complete rub… no actual information, no help, no attempt to show anything that would lead us to trust you, that all the above could be remotely true…
          I’m still calling BS…that this golden ticket info is nothing more than the mumbling affects of Leprechaun whiskey.

          • Seeker,

            I appreciate your frustration but let me ask you what you would do if you was convinced that you have the correct solve but also knew that one of the clues wouldn’t exist in approximately 5 years or so, would you keep that information to yourself or would you share it?

            P.s Mr Fenn has never replied to any of my emails, take that anyway you like.

          • What I would do? ~I’d attempt to explain my claim or keep my mouth shut.

            The only thing you have actually shared is the you’re confident in your solve/ Big Whoop!

            I’m not frustrated. I just think, you think, you have something no one else does, need to say something, yet say nothing, or you’ll explode holding what you hope is the golden ticket.

            But when you added; that the chase will be done and gone in a few years with none chance of the poem leading anyone to the chest… that is a claim that needs an explanation, something, anything, or … revert back to the beginning of my comment of what I would do…
            because I wouldn’t hang a claim like, without backing it up.
            Which clue are you referring to?
            What might be the affect that would cause a clue [any clue] to no longer be usable?
            Use a hypothetical, a logical scenario, do something, other than saying we should blindly trust.

            But that’s just me.

          • Seeker

            I’m passed exploding, I have had my solve for months now, it may be very vague but this is all I am willing to say, I have researched my solve area and in approximately 5 years IMO searchers will find it difficult to be able to ‘Go in peace’.

          • Butch, I might agree with that one. Trust me. (Touche’).

            You may have set a new *world* record for pushing the buttons of a lot of altar egos. On the other hand, you
            might be one of them. But It’s not a biggie.

            Is the blog getting more interesting? I wouldn’t count on it just yet. IMO.

      • Oz10,

        Let me ask you, what would I have to gain by putting out such a statement if it wasn’t true? I knew most wouldn’t believe it anyway, I don’t hide from anyone, I’m on FF pages on FB and can easily be found, I will ask you what I asked seeker, what would you do if you knew something like this, would you share it or keep it to yourself? Again I have nothing to gain but enemies by making such a statement so why would I if it were not true?

        • Butch, if you can show the email where Forrest replied and said “you are correct, one of the clues will be eliminated soon so you better go and get that chest” then yes we can trust that. If something like that were to happen I’m sure ff himself will do a public announcement.

          You say that you are doing it to help us, but if you don’t have evidence to those claims they mean nothing. So maybe WE want to help you stay sane and don’t become delusional with a solve so great in your head that it must be true. This is how some searchers have lost their livelihoods, gotten hurt or worse. Not because they had doubts, but because they were so convinced they were right. Forrest didn’t answer my email so I must be right. Forrest said he had a gut feeling after he read my email, he must’ve said that about me. You see how delusions take shape???

    • Butch;

      What the heck have you been smoking? Forrest has said repeatedly that he designed the poem to last 1,000 or even 10,000 years, and YOU have some special power that tells you that one of the clues will “evaporate” into thin air in the next 5 to 10 years, making it practically impossible to find Indulgence? Get real Butch.

      Are you predicting that Yellowstone will blow her top in 5 to 10 years? If that happens, the last thing that mankind will be worried about will be Forrest’s treasure.

      Something that “only he and I will understand.” You are saying that Forrest also knows that this “Something” will disappear in 5 to 10 years??? Why would Forrest say that he is looking down the road
      100 years or even 1,000 years if he knew this? Get real Butch.

      If you want to be taken as a serious searcher, you have to act like one – Hint – your post is NOT the way to win friends and influence people.

      Just the observations of an OLD searcher – JDA

      • jda…maybe smoking pages from TTOTC. I know lemon juice is popular and magnifying glasses? Other atrocities have been done as well…

      • Hi JDA,

        I don’t believe Mr Fenn intended for this to happen but you guy have to believe me!
        I knew I wasn’t gonna gain friends by saying it but I only found out myself a few days ago after cementing my solve by doing extended research, for obvious reasons I cannot say what it is but IMO it’s an important clue and it will not be there in 5/1 0 years time IMO, I don’t smoke, I don’t drink and I’m sorry but this is true IMO from my research, I hope to claim through TC within the next 6 weeks once I am organised back here in the UK.

        • Well Butch;

          We have ourselves a problem. You contend that through research you feel that one of the clues will vanish in 5/10 years, yet you will not say what it is. If I were to say that in a hypothetical solve, that my hoB was a Brown hill, and that through my research I had determined that this “Brown Hill” was going to disappear due to a landslide, would I be giving away a clue? I don’t think so.

          Even if you were to take a picture of it, and explain why your research had revealed an immanent landslide – would you be disclosing anything? I don’t think so.

          Good luck. I hope you can return to the U.S. and find Indulgence, and put it all to rest – JDA

          • The only ones who I know who say things like this are Global Warming proponents. Everything seems to be disappearing in the next ten years.

        • Butch: you have made bold claims before that did not come to pass. I call your attention to this one from May 23:

          “JDA I am willing to eat ‘Crow’ as you Americans put it, as it saddens me to announce that the TC will be claimed within the next 7 days IMO………someone has the same solve as me, I will prove it next week after its been claimed.”

          I don’t recall reading any big announcements at the end of May, nor any mea culpa from you.

          You *do* have one thing going for you: you’re searching in the right state (IMO). But it’s a big state, and the odds are not good that you have the correct WWWH.

          • LOL Zap,
            Finish the meal with; fugu and a grain of salt and a tall glass of leprechaun whiskey.
            The official meal of the chasers.

          • All this talk of Faerie Fizz and Leprechaun Whiskey !

            odds are Zap…none of his solve is remotely correct.

          • Zap,

            That wasn’t a bold claim, I had a feeling somebody had the same solve as me, they didn’t, my solve however is still to be proven! It’s no wonder the TC hasn’t been found up to now the way you have all jumped on the bandwagon, reminds me of a load of sheep following each.
            other, jeez where did all the free thinkers go! I’m gonna take a Back seat for a while, feel free to ignore what I said originally and carry on slagging me off, I mean, how on earth what I said be true? ‘Shock’ ‘Horror’ remember that English guy that went against the grain! How dare he, Banish him!!………’See you guys at the book signing. 🙂

          • Butch ~’ English guy that went against the grain! How dare he, Banish him!!………’See you guys at the book signing. ‘

            You said you knew some would not believe your claim… I said, you have explained your claim, you haven’t even attempted to explain anything.
            You say; ‘ jeez where did all the free thinkers go! ‘
            Well, how can we think about a dang thing if you don’t give us something to think about?
            All you said was; in a few years we’re all up that famous creek with no chance of solving the poem.

            You are doing what others have in the past, and folks wanting to chat about ideas, are waiting to do just that, and not the BS from the ‘I know something ya’ll don’t know’ types…
            It’s beyond boring… it pathetic.

            You claim your not like the others knowitall’s… but you have all the same precautionary excuses. And brag about your own book signing [ yawn ] regardless if that is an attempt at sarcastic humor or not. You keep adding fuel to the fire… then complain folks are attacking your important ‘factual’ information.

            I’m calling BS again… we can’t attack [ as you claim ] something that has not been explained.
            But you love to repeat it, rub it in our face, and don’t have the coconuts to even try.

            I don’t give a rat’s tail if you find it or not, I don’t care if your research information is factual… What I see is, all the same ball-less pre-plan excuses you hide behind, like all the other ‘knowitalls’ before you.

            That’s all I have to work with, as a free thinker…

          • Excuse me…there’s plenty to think about. The poem still needs to be deciphered. The distractions seem to mount at the same times annually…this is no different. I still do not understand what Butch was trying to accomplish and it just seems totally contrary to everything in the Chase. So be it. Let us all know when you have completed your search Butch…and stay healthy in the mean time. There is a whole list of books by searchers who only dreamed of finding Fenn’s loot…

        • Oh man Bruce you sure kicked the hornets nest didn’t ya! I recall some of your spring postings were equally confident and uninspiring and lacking any details. As before all we can do is tell you to be safe and don’t get target fixated. Since we are prognosticating I will go ahead and say you don’t return to the uk with a chest full of gold and it won’t be because of customs

          • Tbug,

            I having been yet, appreciate your words of safety, I won’t be bringing it through customs, I’m gonna put it in a SDB and then kick back in a nice hotel with a bed I can swim in and some nice lobster tails washed down with a nice buttery Chardonnay. 🙂

    • Butch,
      I’m sorry but I believe you’re wrong. Why would Mr. Fenn make clues with a time limit, it goes against so many ATF statements. Good luck though! -B

      • Hi Birdie,

        Mr Fenn never intended for this to happen and could not of foreseen this when creating the clues, it’s only through my extensive research cementy my solve that I discovered this.

      • Hey-O Birdie –

        Consider this hypothetical.

        Say my Grandpa had come up with such a scheme in the late ’20’s/early ’30’s, and then actually hidden his chest in 1938.

        If he had hidden that trove in Glen Canyon or Flaming Gorge, he’d have had to go retrieve it 20 years later or let it be inundated under a reservoir he couldn’t have seen coming.

        No idea what Butch is thinking, but I can imagine scenarios. And even now we are seeing that public lands in the US are not sacrosanct and fixed for all time. Even a National Monument (court cases pending, of course).

        Jake

        • JA,
          I honestly don’t believe that anything within Mr. Fenn’s special area will ever be destroyed. He picked a perfect place, he thought of EVERYTHING. I can however see places along the route to his spot being charged and updated. IMO
          -B

    • Wow. I didn’t notice this before. I just pulled out my copy of “Once Upon A While” and noticed that it says “by Forrest Fenn and Butch”. I’m not sure how I missed it for all this time.

    • I don’t know about the ‘one of the clues will no longer be valid’ argument, but I do agree that Fenn wants it found before he passes. He requires the doubters to be proven wrong. His soul will not rest if folks have died looking for it while others have suggested he never actually hid it. He doesn’t want his kids or grandkids to suffer from false accusations either. That’s not a legacy any man wants to leave for his descendants.

    • I call BS. Whenever someone says they “can’t” tell more, it’s a flat-out lie.
      It’s a CHOICE about whether you WANT to tell more.

      By the way, the “treasure” (chest) is already practically impossible to find — in
      case you hadn’t noticed.

      Talk is very cheap. Blog messages like yours aren’t very entertaining. All IMO.

  46. This is my odds and ends of the chase, we searched over the passed weekend , unfortunately We did not find the special gold once again, I did arise and shine to see the blaze but that still did not help me.
    It’s been 5 long years of trying to out smart Forrest, and it’s not working for me,
    May the wisest and smartest find the gold.
    Good Luck to u all, have a safe adventure while searching. Thank u for the many friendships for the past 5 years!!!
    And Duane says for me not to post my solve to Dal, I will keep it in my chest ❤️ for now.

    • Sorry you did not find the treasure you were looking for – but your morning blaze sounds like a treasure in and of itself. Sounds like a safe place to keep it – JDA

    • Amy, has it been 5 years? Wow how time flies. I loved some of your searching techniques, a testament to your imagination. I remember you keeping me on the edge of my seat each time you went out searching. Thanks for sharing your good natured thoughts over the years. You were always a shining star IMO:)

    • I’m sorry to see you leaving the Chase, Amy. I’ve enjoyed reading your posts over the years, and your happy attitude was an added bonus. I hope your memories warms you when you look back. Wishing you and your husband the best.

    • Sweet is the aroma of experience…you and Duane have your treasure. Happy trails!

    • With 5 years in you gave it a good shot. That’s all one can do in this chase. Sounds like Duane might still be interested in that solution. Take care Amy.

      • Thank u all for the sweet comments, it’s been one heck of a chase, and as for me… It’s just too far to drive!!!

        • Amy, you could continue to work on solving the poem. Wouldn’t
          you be pleased if someone you trusted did the BOTG search for
          you and you both shared the “prize”? All IMO.

    • Thank you for the link, Dal. I enjoyed the article and thought they did a good job.

    • All in all, this is a fairly balanced story IMO, given that they could’ve easily made Fenn or searchers out to be ‘wonky Americans’. I think it found humanity and substance in Forrest and many of the searchers. Sure, I suppose the Younis guy will be embarrassed, but for a Brit audience, there has to be at least one sympathetic fool, I suppose.

    • One new distance figure from the UK article to throw more cold water on any searchers who still insist on hiking absurd distances. And also the conspiracy theorists who jump through hoops to propose alternatives to Forrest making two trips from his sedan to the treasure’s location in an afternoon:

      “‘A 79 or 80 year old man went to that hiding place twice in one afternoon,’ he tells DailyMail.com ‘There’s no point climbing up to the top of the mountain or hiking 20 miles looking for the treasure.’”

      • What about driving between clues? or followed ‘some’ of the clues when he hid the chest?
        Better yet, what about an 80 yr old not going into a canyon, back up the canyon and down again?

        Allow me to predict the excuses ahead of time; No point in ‘climbing or hiking’ when you can drive up a mountain or drive 20 miles… or into a canyon.

  47. There is a Media Coverage page on this blog that has links to stories about the chase from the very first to the most recent. If you need to read interviews and stories with Forrest about the chase…look on the Media Coverage page…
    There is even one story about Forrest from 1986 in People magazine. The stories are listed chronologically with the oldest stories at the bottom of the page.

    https://dalneitzel.com/2013/03/17/media-coverage/

  48. From the git-go, the solve was supposed to be gleaned from the Book & Poem. later a map was added, probably because Fenn wanted to tell more stories and a map would be a good draw for the new book. Then other stuff came along…. even the admission that all you need is the poem (apparently thats not working). But from the git-go, just the book and poem was supposed to be enough.

    Many empty-handed searchers have said it is necessary to “get into Fenn’s head’… well, that can only be done by studying the words in the book and the poem, how Fenn told the stories, chose the words, played with the syntax. Could we please get more of that?

    Has anyone thought about this sentence example: “I stayed away from diet drinks because I didn’t want to lose weight”? (pg 127) . Was weight an important issue to young Forrest? The only ‘diet’ drink I know of when he was a boy was water. Is ‘diet drink’ a euphemism for something else? Was Grapette, his favorite ‘drink”, a small stream, a short distance to the water he was staying away from? He didn’t want to lose weight … was ‘weight’ some heavy loads he didn’t want to lose sight of, a blaze he needed? There are so many of these wonderful examples of these word knots, but they are rarely discussed. Volunteers? Other examples? Dont talk about the vagaries & multiple interpretations… give examples.

    • OS2,

      “I stayed away from diet drinks because I didn’t want to lose weight”

      Let me attempt to make a crazy connection. On the surface, it seems like an attempt at humor, right? When he lists the different types of soda bottle caps he collected, there is no mention of diet drinks because they didn’t exist yet. But another thing that didn’t exist at that time was that colloquial term “I stayed away from diet drinks because I didn’t want to lose weight”. That is something people use nowadays, not back then.

      So, was it on purpose to see if we were paying attention, just like the story-line that he switched from For Whom the Bell Tolls??? He brought that up in one of the interviews with Preston on how nobody called him on that mistake after he wrote TTOTC.

      How does that help with the poem, is it a reference to ‘riches new and old’? Is he using contemporary words and phrases to describe certain (something-somethings) that were known differently back then; or are we looking at descriptions used in the past that we need to translate to the present?

      Well, that is my connection before I go off the rails. No kitchen sink needed.

      • OZ10, Until all the synaptic mapping is done, the proverbial Kitchen Sink is the best description I can think of for the organ in our skulls.
        6-7 years ago I posted my theory of the Hemingway mix-up… it wasn’t put there merely to test our observational skills. It was a very clever literary re-affirmation of Fenn’s philosophic comments in My War For Me. It was the thing that got me interested in the rip-tides and under-tows in his written words in the ‘stories’.
        Thx for your comment. OS2

  49. OS2,
    I will give ya my opinion on the diet drink comment. I think it’s a reference to beaver, they use the um lower area of the gentleman beaver to make artificial sweeteners. There are several references to beaver, I can’t repeat exactly but….something to the effect of eyes being open and lids shut, to his teacher maybe. There’s a picture in TTOTC of a beaver hiding in a picture also. I hope that was a good example for you and I hope I helped with your question.
    -B

    • Thanks Birdie, thats exactly the type of thing that is fun to explore, especially where one feels the writing has a little under-tow. The Beaver sweetener is new to me. I dont think it is relevant to the sweet soda story, but “nothing is too little to know”, or something to that effect. I thought Blatz was a ringer until I read up and saw the company did make a soda at one time. I wonder why Fenn listed the names of a dozen sodas? … was it NAMES or LIST in the tow. A LIST is an edge, a border line. (“Listen Good”) Ever know an 8-10 year old boy who was concerned about his weight? Or diet? If anybody else has some curious favorites stuck in your craw, relieve yourself. I’m all ears.

      • OS10…I had a fun little solution that ties in with some of your ideas. If you look at the map in TFTW, and look at the line BIWWWH, then trace with your finger from that line across to the map you will find yourself at Border Junction, Wyoming. 42 degrees latitude. From there, go south about 10 miles to Cokeville. COKE…of course!! I was interested in the Tri-Monument region (monument marking the intersection of ID, WYO, and UT) because it is known that the Fenn Cache was found very near to that area. My guess, because some of the artifacts are damaged by possibly a plow blade, that the Cache was probably found near Cokeville Wildlife Refuge or Bear Lake areas. The Bear River was a favorite spot for Osbourne Russell as well.. It was a quite an adventure getting to the Monument and there was an 18″x24″ x5″ depression right at the spot! Someone beat me to it LOL!! Just kidding. Something was removed but doubt it was the TC. OH…the places I’ve been and things I’ve seen in this treasure hunting life.

        • Sandy, can you post links for where the Fenn cache was found? My research said that early 1900s no one really knew the exact spot/area such the archeological story was pretty lost…I’ve never heard of the plowed up aspect either, rather discovered/found… seems to me cave/hidey hole is just as likely since they were all together.

          • Such caches have frequently been uncovered as a result of field plowing, landscaping, or construction earth-moving.

            http://lithiccastinglab.com/gallery-pages/2012junefenncachepage1.htm

            From the study linked above:

            ****** One report of the discovery of the Fenn cache describes it as having been found in a cultivated field. Another account describes how it was found in a “skin bag” inside of a dry cave. Although the Fenn cache artifacts don’t show any signs of damage that could be conclusively attributed to farm equipment, there have been caches found in cultivated fields that have no damage. But in fact, biface number 122 in the cache is described as, “One deep, wide flake scar is modern damage of unknown origin.” So a gambler might bet on a cultivated field find. If this Clovis cache was found in a “skin bag,” it would be the only Clovis cache ever found in this way. Exactly how the Fenn cache was originally discovered will probably remain a mystery. ******

            Jake

          • Thanks for posting the link Jake…I recently viewed the Mahaffey Cache display at the CU Boulder Museum. Fascinating! I learned that I own a similar projectile point to those in the McHaffey cache… a beautiful Uinta Quartzite Clovis point that had been my grandfather’s. When I told my Dad about it he pulled out a huge jar of projectile points that my grandfather had collected and gave them all to me!! Oh, the many treasures I have received in this treasure hunting life.

          • I have read that link before and this was what I noted above and was why I posed the question: “The cache is mysterious for the fact that no one knows exactly where or how the cache was discovered.” I agree several similar caches were found through plowing and earth moving during development (same for numerous dinosaur excavations) but I wanted to point out that it’s still a guess. I would love to hear some stories from FF about George Frison, as I expect he is another influencer of FFs. Here is a fun thought: if we or FF are to be like Indiana Jones on this chase, FF could be Henry Jones Sr. (Or Frison is to FF)…fun coincidence Sean Connery was born in 1930 same as FF!

          • Tbug…in the same way the location and manner of discovery of the Fenn Clovis Cache is currently unknown (at least to the general public) and is likely lost to history, so too the current location of the “other” Fenn Cache known as Indulgence is also unknown. To the best of our knowledge. As you probably surmised, I was looking for both in the same place. Riches new and old. The WWWH that I provided was tantalizing. Fenn, along with Ken Tankersley and others, was instrumental in discovering the location where the Crooke County Clovis Cache was found. I would imagine Fenn made several exploratory searches for the origin of his own Clovis Cache as well. We may never know. But oh so fun.

      • Thats interesting Sandy … I would have assumed Castorum came from the castor bean plant. Castor oil being an old home used in the comics as a remedy for bad children. Also used in reality in biological weaponry… and probably tested in some research lab for cancer treatments too. Castorum doesn’t play in any of my solves, but beaver does.

  50. Hey, does anyone know FF’s E-Mail address? I’d like to write him. Thanks guys…

  51. I once said, I will be walking straight to Indulgence with confidence just before my 48th birthday. Well, I turn 48 today yet Indulgence is still out there. I don’t believe I deserve the crow special but perhaps a small slice of blackbird pie would be more appropriate. I was able to drive right to my parking spot, went down my canyon, everything was there. I have to admit though I walk right by the blaze like everyone before me had. The trees are taller, limbs have a bit more sag, as we all do with age. When I realised my mistake we turned around & walked right to it. I sat at the blaze and gazed at the marvellous sight before me. There he stands tall & proud, with his shield held against his chest. He stands guard over Indulgence and her resting spot. It’s amazing to see in person, the picture I found of him does him no justice. I spent hours reading blogs & watching videos frame by frame until I saw him hiding in the shadows one day. It was the moment I knew I had found the spot. After flying fourteen plus hours & driving a few more, it was clear that Indulgence was not far but too far to walk & the water was too high for me to be brave and in the woods. I decided to be smart & stay alive instead. It was a hard blow not getting to search my area but it didn’t kill me, just bruised my ego a bit. I can’t wait to experience it again in the near feature, it was breathtaking. I’m sorry for no pictures but they would tell to much. Good luck!
    -B

    • Happy Birthday Birdie! I hope you can return in August or September to give it another try. I enjoy your posts and wish you the best of luck.

    • Sounds tantalizing… I wouldn’t be able to sleep until I checked it out. Good luck.

    • Happy Birthday Birdie!
      That would have been an awesome Birthday gift!
      I am hoping to get one more search in before I turn 49.
      And, I also get your “no pictures”.
      Hold your cards close.
      Secretes are a good thing.

      Clearly Clueless

    • Happy birthday, Birdie. Still rooting for you! The waters’ been high this year. And hope your mom’s doing well.

      Still looking for that freakin’ beaver in TTOTC. LOL!

    • You walked right to your mistake?

      No further questions at this time, as I think enough buttons have been pushed
      around here for a little wile. IMO.

      • tightfocus,
        I assure you I have not meant to push any buttons. I was just putting my trip out there like everyone else has. I will be glad to answer any questions, as long as there not to telling. Anybody, anytime! birdieb616 iCloud
        And my mistake stands above 20ft tall and sits 200 ft away. It’s an amazing mistake! IMO
        -B

  52. Butch,
    If I thought I had the correct solve and knew that one of the clues was going to dissappear in the next five years, I would go get the TC. If i didnt find it, I would share the clue in case it would help someone else. How does it help anyone to hear that a clue is going to dissappear? It doesnt IMO

    • The problem with the correct solve is not knowning how it’s hidden. If you aren’t sure it’s a possibility of walking on by. I know the 12 foot statement but not sure if it accounts for 8 seasons of leaves falling and erosion.

      Forrest hid the chest and said how it’s hidden would be to big of a clue. In a cavity in a bank, hole in the ground or behind a log, but why would it give the location away on how it’s hidden?

      If you’re in the Rockies you will see layers of sediment that create the unique colors in the mountains.

  53. Seeker,
    I agree that no clue is associated with any structure. I think all clues are geographical (built by Mother Nature), so I’m not even looking at structures of any kind. I guess I just thought that the fact that the treasure is not associated with a dam and the treasure is not associated with a structure are two different things which would allow for a beaver dam to fall under dams. Either way, I don’t think beavers are involved, and I don’t think structures are associated with clues. I think the entire poem describes geographical features.

    • flutterby the only clue that I think is associated with a structure is no paddle up your creek

      • If I’m right, “no paddle up your creek” is absolutely not related to a structure. I guess time will tell

          • IMO no paddle is associated with a creek but not a boat oar and definitely not a structure anywhere in the area 😉

          • There is a small man-made structure across/above/around
            the creek. Please don’t quibble about this, because being
            technical is not “cheating” or an invalid method for solving
            the poem. All IMO.

        • the reason you cant paddle up your creek is because you have come to the end of the creek where the water is being released and this structure has nothing to do with the tc as to where it is imo

          • If the structure you are talking about cause the creek to end… I’d say that is associated with a clue. If a clue is associated with the treasure, is that not one in the same?

          • no paddle up your creek just tell you that it is as far west as you need to go . the reason I wrote it this way above cause some one was going to comment that the tc was not hidden in a structure

          • Frank,
            It could be a simple bend if the creek… A westward flow in the creek bends, u-turns and heads the water back eastward. Which could mean the ‘end’ is ‘Ever Drawing’ near you [pulling] back to where you started, but you may never had to leave that location in the first place.

            Now, if you only want to think end means a stop or has no place else to go because of a structure or a structure diverts or changes the flow of the water… great, if that is something that has to be in your solve to make it work.

            The question is; which idea seems more ‘logical’ if we think about the ATF’s as helpful and the possibility of no structure involved with the chest may relate to clues being associated with the chest may also not be associated with any structure.

            That’s not saying a structure is not in the area, just the thought of, not being related to a clue/treasure.
            My personal idea is; [fenn’s comment] we don’t dwell on WWWH enough, might mean, we don’t understand ‘fenn’s’ WWWH ‘location’ out of the many.
            So if WWH is not a dam [which is a structure] and the treasure is not associated with a structure, and the clues are only/must be associated with the treasure… the clues can’t be either.
            So no ‘house’ of Brown, line of thinking.

            Where is your “home”? It’s where I dwell [habitation]… not my dwelling [ as structure of residence]…. ever so slightly different.

  54. Butch,
    If you have the correct solve, go get the TC. If you dont find it and you really believe a clue is going to dissappear, how are you helping anyone with this news? If I couldnt get the TC and thought I had info that would help others, I would share it. Ive shared plenty.

    • Flutterby,

      If I am incorrect when I return I will say so, however I cannot and will not say anymore because wether I find it this time or not I am defiantly in the correct area, I know you guys have heard it a thousand times over the years but all my clues line up without even try in to make them fit.

      • After your try either way hit or miss you have to let us know where your solve was.. i e-mailed jda of mine was hoping he’d post it but i swung and missed.. i tucked my tail and working on another solve..

        • There will be no need for repetition tightfocus and I’m not arguing, I will be going with confidence and walking back with a smile 🙂

  55. Mr. Fenn,

    Summer is here. How is your gut feeling? Hopeful

    My gut feeling is wavering.f

  56. Oz10

    If I was delusional I would of jumped on a plane from the UK already, I’m biding my time as well as having to watch my wallet and raise funds, I’m not saying that it is because of me that Mr fenn had a gut feeling, however it was around the same time, it’s fine if you guys don’t believe me, just remember when all the singing and dancing is over you can’t say you wasn’t told.

    • Quote – “just remember when all the singing and dancing is over you can’t say you wasn’t told.” JDA

    • Butch, do what you must do. I would wait for ff to announce the unfortunate upcoming event related to one of his clues. That will definitely prove your solve right? Then make the trip cause you will know with 100% certainty that it will not be a waste of time and money.

      If you don’t think he will announce it after spending 15 years building it with the thought of it lasting for a 1000 years then I don’t want to know what you think his reasons for the whole point is about.

      • Everyone

        Mr Fenn Will not be making that announcement for a few years yet by which time the TC would of been found, as I have said before nobody could of for seen it at the time not even Mr Fenn, if I have upset or annoyed anyone then I apologize, however I will not keep quite about what I know as fact.

        • Butch… the only facts come from Fenn. I think perhaps you are just another of the thousands that have had these wild ideas…and TRUST ME there have been many.
          Good luck just the same….

          • I beg to diFFer; Descartes provided a fact. I think y’all already knew that.

            The above is my opinion.

        • FACT:
          a thing that is indisputably the case.
          “the most commonly known fact about hedgehogs is that they have fleas”
          synonyms: reality, actuality, certainty; More
          truth, verity, gospel
          “it is a fact that the water is polluted”
          antonyms: lie, fiction

          used in discussing the significance of something that is the case.
          noun: the fact that
          “the real problem facing them is the fact that their funds are being cut”
          a piece of information used as evidence or as part of a report or news article.
          synonyms: detail, piece of information, particular, item, specific, element, point, factor, feature, characteristic, ingredient, circumstance, aspect, facet; information
          “every fact was double-checked”

          It is a FACT that you have offered absolutely no FACTS to back-up your assertions and opinions. Until these FACTS are presented, I (for one) will put them where they rightfully belong – in the round filing cabinet. – JDA

          • JDA,

            I can see its the word ‘Fact’ that has rattled you, I provided as much proof as I could in an answer earlier to the seeker, instead of all ganging up on me why not get Dal to pose the question to Mr Fenn, who knows he may elaborate on what I have raised? Just to reiterate IMO in approximately 5 to 10 years time searchers will find it difficult to ‘go in peace’ that is all I will say on the matter.

          • Butch – I am not rattled at all. You used the word fact when you said, ” however I will not keep quite about what I know as fact.” Whatever it is that will happen so that “in approximately 5 to 10 years time searchers will find it difficult to ‘go in peace” is NOT a FACT – it is YOUR supposition.

            War MAY break-out, but that is OT a fact. Yellowstone MAY explode, but that is NOT (as yet) a known FACT.

            Enough said – no need to beat a dead horse.

            We will not change your mind – So – save your money, come back over the pond and find Indulgence – then we won’t have to worry about what MAY or MAY NOT happen in 5/10 years.

            Illusions are wondrous things – Delusions can be upsetting. Just a thought – JDA

        • Butch,

          A little info for you, on Feb 4, 2018 on MW F has a gut feeling the tc might be found this summer. “not an exact quote” However I did send F my solve on Feb 3, 2018 the day before. Now, I didn’t jump up and down thinking he was referencing me. He could of been referencing somebody else. I too have what I believe a good solve and the poem easily fits with the area that I am looking at, but that doesn’t make my solve as *fact* or correct. The only thing I know as fact, is that I sent him an email and no response from F.

          Summer really began on the 21st of June and many days left before summer ends. F said over at MW on this day his gut is wavering. It might be he thought the tc would be found prior to now. But, who really knows why it hasn’t been found before now.

          I personally will not jump on my bandwagon saying I am the one FF is waiting for. Nor will I say it is a fact until I have the tc in hand and feel people shouldn’t be saying their solve is fact. I see no harm in saying, I *believe* I have a good solve.

          Just say’n, what I think.

          • You’d have to confirm with Jenny, but I’d guess she sent the questions and got his answers prior to Feb 4 (and potentially prior to you sending him your email). The 6 questions update has always been posted on Feb 4.

            And an email in and of itself doesn’t say much, IMO.

            Now if you had sent him an email earlier, referenced an area you had a gut feeling about, and told him you were doing it so he could include it in his yearly update, then that would carry a bit more water, I’d think.

          • HI CharlieM

            I wish Butch would elaborate on his “FACTS”. I suspect a conspiracy theory maybe, but could be wrong.

            I now know of about 5 searchers who have sent Forrest their solves, and all did it before he made the “gut feeling” comment. Any one of them (including you) could be the one who caused him to say what he said.

            I appreciate JDA defining “FACT” for Butch. I am waiting for him to fill in the gap and provide the missing evidence.

            Franklin

          • ChalieM

            You have taken my statement out of context, I’m not jumping up and down about my solve and I never said that Mr Fenn was referring to me about his gut feeling! Nothing of the sort, my initial blog was about a clue/hint being more difficult in 5 to 10 years time and I stand by that, now can we now move on please there is a chest of gold out there waiting!

        • Butch,
          All searchers with similar claims of having solved the Chase, eventually expose themselves by saying too much. Believe me, you are no exception. You do not know.

          Good Luck!

        • Butch,
          If you feel the need to warn us, you should give more details or the warning is useless.

          • JDA WATCH THEM RATTLERS IN WY with all the twist and turns this is like playing twister every one its best to know whats around you at all times them snakes bite always be wise some wise guys forget the rules

          • Flutterby,

            I never intended it to be a warning, it was simply an observation after doing some extensive research to cement my solve and I still stand by it, as I said before I never expected it to gain me friends.

          • JDA,

            Of course my friend, let’s hope I don’t drop any acorns on the way back from my solve 🙂

    • Butch,
      If you are so certain of a solve, why worry about funds? Take out a loan and go collect the TC. Its worth enough to pay off any travel funds. Be sure to let us know how that goes.

      I can hardly wait to see which mountain, river, or basin is just going to disappear. Even more interested to find out why Mother Nature sent you the memo and nobody else got it.

      • Flutterby,

        Mother nature doesn’t send memo’s, she give good, hard solid information if your willing to ‘LISTEN’ to her. 🙂

  57. All I remember,one wise man saying..And I Quote as FACT–It’s not what you don’t know that gets you into trouble- Its what you know for sure that just isn’t so, thats what gets you into trouble..R–B

    • Cynthia, I can’t comment on your site because I’m not on Facebook.

      I’ve searched that area (OC, #2) very well, twice. It’s a magical spot. Did you find the shovel behind the electrical box? It’s been there at least a couple of years (not left by me; I don’t dig in YNP, either!).

  58. “I’m not sure if the esteemed members here recall, but I had generously offered a “knighthood” to anyone who might provide me with any information regarding the location of the mysterious treasure. My nummerous attempts at bribery unfortunately fell upon deaf ears until a rather famous person came forward, accepted the trade, and promptly shared with me Where Warm Waters Halt. Here is a short video of Mr. Gibb being given the knighthood in exchange for the information I needed. Charlie was good enough to do the actual work, whilst I reaped the reward:

    https://boingboing.net/2018/06/28/bee-gees-barry-gibb-was-knig.html

    Even though I have the needed information now, I am unable to make the journey to the States this summer, and I believe Forrest is aware of this. So he has recently stated that his “gut feeling is wavering” about the treasure being found this summer. But I shall make the journey next year and retrieve Indulgence, receive the acclaim, and return once again to Buckingham Palace, chest in hand. I would like to thank Mr. Gibb for accepting my offer, and providing me with the needed information. I will see you next year. Cheers!”

    —Queen Elizabeht

  59. “I do apologize. It appears I imbibed a bit too much wine at lunch. Of course the name is Elizabeth, not Elizabeht. Cheers!”

  60. Mr. fenn said that WWWH was not a dam. Does that mean it can’t be a lake as well?

    • As long as the lake is not “Dammed” – and water flows out of the lake, sounds like it would work – JMO – JDA

  61. I don’t usually involve myself with chat on these blogs ( just like to sort through all these
    thoughts seeking out anything that might help me.)
    But, I wanted to point out something that is important. You must connect (2) two intersecting lines which are mentioned in the poem. Very simple really. The chest is located at the place they intersect. The blaze will be directly overhead. So you see, you don’t really need to
    find the blaze first ( and you most likely wpold not find it first). Try to be analytical about it.
    All treasure chests are generally marked by an X.
    GB

    • GB,
      The thought of the blaze ‘overhead’ is not a new concept… but i’m curious to the “intersecting line… in the poem.”
      Are they consecutive lines in the poem or are they intersecting by meaning / interpretation… and can be [ for example ] line 4 and line 24?

    • In this sense, GB, I usually think of stanza 3 as a V (a narrowing arrow pointer). X can work too. Though it’s not, as it is in your view, formed by two lines intersecting; but more like two V’s (arrows) pointing to the center:

      ><

      (Since by stanza 3 we need the path to get pretty precise in short order).

      Jake

    • Hi GB,
      I have been looking for a horizontal axis (i.e. line) for HoB to intersect with the vertical axis (i.e. line) created by the Continental Divide. So this would be an “X” so to speak for the second stanza (possible first 2, 3, or 4 clues).

      The ideas I have had for a HoB horizontal axis have been uninspiring. Someone mentioned to me the Brown’s Valley Man / 45th Parallel and I felt that was interesting but a major stretch for HoB.

      I do think lines should probably cross but I do not have a good grasp for how many lines and which clues create lines. The Continental Divide definitely creates a line…so I thought that was a possibility. Dave

      • ‘ hoB… the Brown’s Valley Man / 45th Parallel and I felt that was interesting but a major stretch for HoB.’

        Um, that’d be me. Even though it was a sloppy flop, it was a brilliant sloppy flop and I want the full credit for being sloppy.
        Thank you very little.

        • Ah, well, that explains it. Just kidding. I looked into other ancient remains found in the US and there just seemed to be too many others, and some older, to make that one in MN special enough to ‘stretch’ into a 45th parallel line for HoB. With that said, my other ideas for a horizontal axis for the HoB have been less inspiring that the one you came up with. Dave

          • There are a few site, sure. Well, several. Um many-?- but not much more than a few? Ok more than a couple but less than a lot.

            I thought of “Brown” being capitalized as a “title” rather than a name.. or more to the fact, a given name/title. And if we’re talking about lines crossing “no place for the meek” could refer to the the “backbone” of the RM’s … the Continental Divide, also possible it refers to The USA section of the CD ‘ no place for the meek’ but certainly ‘home of the brave’ line of thinking.

            So the line in the poem~ If you are brave and in the wood [ in this case wood refers to a saddle of a mountain or mountain pass ]. I give you “title” ~ Brown ~ to the gold… to be below hoB… and home to represent the location of the accident discover at the 45 parallel.

            Just curious… I’m sure you looked up the area of where the Brown’s Valley man was found. Did you happen to notice how the land, the lakes, the area he was found in… fits the Madison and Gallatin ‘ two counties’… Hebgan lake and Earth quake lake… by how both areas became ‘two lakes’? And… Earth quake lake memorial-?- to Brown’s valley Man memorial.

            It’s quite the comparison.

            This was the reason i had ask; Who is “I” -?- in stanza one and what “treasureS” [points] bold did he “alone” [ meaning; in the first, to do so, line of thinking ] bring “in there” — during the time when the unknown ‘home of the brave’ had another meaning to “bold” as in ‘journey/exploring.’

            My wwh was a period in ‘Time’ and canyon down was the ice free corridor which work well for the idea of an accident and the Brown’s Valley Man. Crossing over into the now USA at the 45th and above the 44th.
            Things start hopping and pooping… until someone had to say there are many WWWH in the RMs and “nearly” all are N. of SF. I won’t mention the name of that someone… but I think you might be able to think of whom I’m thinking of. Hint, his ‘title’ in TTOTC.

            Poof ! … went that brilliant theory. lol
            Footnote; no driving necessary between clues. but ya could if ya wanted to, I guess.

          • Seeker, no, I did not research the aspects of the lake formation similarities between the location of Brown’s Valley man and those near West Yellowstone. I did find the Clovis artifacts found with the remains interesting but still felt the theory was “too far too walk” in terms of a tie in to the poem. I admit is it plausible, and considering how difficult HoB appears to be maybe it is something this esoteric, but in the end I classified it as a reach because I just don’t think the find was unique enough for it to lay claim or ownership over the entire 45th parallel of the United States.

            As for the other aspects of your solve, I’m not sure I can completely wrap my mind around it but I can see you went ‘big picture’ with it and had cohesive theme for your logic. I think there might be some sort of cohesive underlying theme to the map.

            As for ff’s comment on most WWWH’s being North of Sante Fe, that is tricky. There are plenty of WWWHs in the southern hemisphere that mirror those in the Northern hemisphere (hot springs, frozen waterfalls, CDs, mountain lakes, dead people, etc.)…so do you think ff was just referring to WWWHs in the Northern Hemisphere or North America or something? If yes, do you think ff was hinting ice was involved with WWWH? Dave

          • I think fenn’s wwh is only referenced by the remaining four stated area. But that doesn’t mean the same reference is not anywhere else. Canada for example. The question now is, do the wwwh’s [ the many ] have a connection to each other?
            I’m not talking something like a lake and very state has a lake, but connect as one. We just need to find the right location of “the one” involved with the clues. In theory anyways.

            Ice is a possibility. All liquid waters are considered warm, cold as a solid and hot as a gas. The temperatures in between are subjective at best. Or warm just means comfortable, and YS river could be comfortable because of fenn’s fondness for YS itself and the color of the name “yellow” as a warm color an art dealer would consider. Hence “brown” might be a “title” of something related to the river.

            I think we need to get a foot on about the other sections of the poem and how it can relate to what warm – waters – and where might be the best option when looking at how to read the poem. Or as fenn suggested… thinking the right thoughts.
            Down the road, seems to be one of those types of thoughts we need to consider, as well as the big picture. Are the two one in the same or different? I don’t know… But imo, whatever we’re missing [ including those who deciphered the first clues – even up to four clues ] appear to be connected to the very first clue. So why wouldn’t WWWH be a ‘big’ part of the ‘big picture’… as a theory.

        • On a serious note though, that is a very interesting find, the Browns Valley Man (about 9k year old). It reminded me of the infant found in Wilsall Montana which I think is the oldest found (13k years old) and also at the 45th parallel. Clovis people walked east, almost on a straight line.

  62. The “wavering “ comment makes me think itge treasure is in New Mexico , where the Forest is closed . Perhaps in a fire zone?

    • Some Nat Forests have closed in Colorado too, and’s already been one fire on the Co/Wyo border (though mostly done and dusted now).

      Three new fires in Colorado yesterday, made for a Red Sun on the Front Range all afternoon/evening.

      Very early start to fire season this year – could be in for a long summer if July rains don’t show.

      Jake

      • Dry season, high temperatures – not to mention the beetle infestations – ALL of our forest’s are in danger. Please keep this in mind as you venture out. Lightening storms, careless smokers, unattended fires, sparks from ATV’s – all causes of fires. PLEASE be careful all – JDA

  63. Hey Y’all, just checking in. No success yet but, still on the hunt. After my last BOTG I now have another new location in relation to Mr. Fenn’s ATF comment ” what took me so long.” This search is definitely harder than one may think. With each BOTG, I believe one has a better understanding of Mr. Fenn’s chosen spot. JDA, I’m sure you would concur. It takes stepping out and looking. JDA is one searcher I truly respect.

    • Thanks Dal!
      We have 22 new trees to add to Forrest’s forest!
      Please join in the celebration by planting a new tree or dedicating an established tree.
      Hugs to all.
      Prairie Flower

  64. ken on June 24, 2018 at 7:10 am said:

    there has been a “rash” of “I’m gonna find its”…
    Fennadryl might ease the itch.

    Thanx Ken, I needed the guffaw! 🙂

  65. McB on June 24, 2018 at 11:43 am said:

    In my opinion, if someone is 12ft from the chest, it is because they “already” know where it is.

    McB,

    I concur. You won’t find yourself 12 foot from the chest for no reason. The more I think about this line of thinking, the more convinced I make myself want to believe that the hidey spot is “secluded” in such a way as to be easily overlooked from a distance of 200 feet, for sure, and maybe as few as 50 feet as a hunch. Speculating as usual, I also wonder if that’s why Mr. Fenn has mentioned that nobody will stumble across it – because you simply won’t see the trees for the forest when a person/searcher walks by. I wonder if one of the clues tells us where to “put in” so we don’t walk past it. All in my opinion, of course.

    • I think this is the only thing that makes sense. The method he used to hide the bells so they would not easily be found has to give one pause.

    • Similar to my post on June 25. Some think that when you find the Blaze then you will automatically find the chest. I know this is not the case. I think Mr Fenn intends to make the finder work their brain till the very end before they can earn their prize.

    • McB, ~ ‘In my opinion, if someone is 12ft from the chest, it is because they “already” know where it is.’

      I kinda agree, but i’m gonna change the thought up a bit. A searcher within 12′ of the chest will already know what to do… not necessarily know ‘where it is.’ The blaze may be the only reason we actually ‘know where it will be’
      * to be correct… it all depends on the actual distance from the blaze to the hidey spot. 12′ could land somewhere in-between, or even, the hidey spot be as large as 13′.

      Anyways, my feeling are; we need to know what to do with the blaze, once it’s found, to discover it’s meaning. Otherwise, it just another blaze out of billions in the RMs.

      Now.. if I could only figure out what the heck is mudding up the warm waters halt.. I might see all this in a better light.

      • Seeker,

        How about this statement?

        Geothermal resources are classified as water on private land in Colorado, but as mineral on state land.

        So, does a hot spring on state land in Colorado stop being water? It appears to legally be a mineral. So does it halt?

        luckydog

        • I honestly could’t fathom which direction to think of , IF it’s no longer water [warm or otherwise] because of a law.
          I just have a hard time thinking fenn use a state legislation of any manner to be involved with a clue.
          But to be brutally honest… it doesn’t pass the sniff test to; the many in the RM’s and nearly all are N.of SF. If you can find the same law in each state… ya might have something, or at the very least, in NM.

          • Could it be as simple as it just gets you into the correct state? Take it in the canyon down, just means it isn’t up on the mountain?
            By getting the correct state, your more than half way there.
            You’ve eliminated 75%.

          • I’m putting this out there because it is a different way of thinking. It can’t hurt.
            Thinking the same way hasn’t gotten us any closer.

          • “I just have a hard time thinking fenn use a state legislation of any manner to be involved with a clue.”

            Why? Nothing would surprise me about FF.

          • You used one ATF, as an example, but kinda skip the other…
            It still needs the idea of “nearly all” are North of SF. If the same law doesn’t exist in NM .. I don’t see how it can be correct.
            You also skipped the idea of wwwh is more specific and in not a region, such a YSP. I would think that a state would also fall to the same line of thinking.

            I’m not arguing, i’m debating and dissecting. But to do that we need more than ‘one’ ATF has a check and balance of a thought.
            We got them, might as well utilize them as best we can.

          • I’m not always on here and don’t follow as close as I did 4 and 5 years ago, so help me out here.
            What does ATF stand for? and where do I find them?

            🙂 Thanks
            I don’t think the other states would have to have the same law.
            Have a good night.

          • LuckyDog

            ATF = After The Fact – Statements made by Forrest After the poem was published. Hope this helps – JDA

  66. if wwwh is east – and no paddle stops you from going west – those directions are covered then you have home of brown and that is south -so you cant go back east west or to the south all you have left is north to waters high and the rest of the clues -imo

    • Why can’t you still go south from hoB? it actually says ‘below’… the only reason to go north is to loose the map, and go by elevation of northward being below hoB.
      But if using a map… what would prevent you from heading south from hoB? because below on a map may indicate southward.

      It sounds to mean you’re attempting to use the creek as a east and west line… make hoB south of east and west [line] making the N. S. line having to cross from south to north over east and west… OK, I can see the thought… just better hope that is where the lines crossing needs to be and WH is correct in reference.

      But I have to ask… when fenn followed the clues to hide the chest, why would he need to know of this line crossing location… why not just turn north because he invented the clues and supposedly knew where he want the hide the chest.

      • ok seeker what ff did with the poem was to help us find the way he took to hide the tc – you to can find the way he took if you go west from wwwh to no paddle – if you want to go south from hob that’s fine but there is not a road going farther south then hob when you get to the end of no paddle the road goes south as far as hob or north which ever way you want to go but I think that ff went north — it —- here you have the road the creek and the dead end where you turn – left or right

        • Well, ya should have mentioned the road to begin with… I was only ‘walking through’ the thought process.
          I hope the road or lack of is there in a few hundred years.
          Waaaait. Ah ha! I just figured out what Butch meant by a clue will no longer be there… I found my golden ticket.

          LOL frank, know of any road work going on in your location? Shhh it will be our secret.

          • well if its going to take a few hundred years to find the treasure chest why worry about the road not being there as far as the golden ticket save it – it might be worth more in a few hundred years

  67. Let me suggest a new way to look at “begin it where warm waters halt”. I’m putting it on this page because this post contains some misc info that are odds n ends. This is not the solve I’m currently working on, but it occured to me while mulling over WWWH, that this phrase may be read completely in a different way.

    First let me clarify alternate meanings of a couple of words.
    Begin = open (such as open a new chapter in life)
    Halt= rein (alternately reign or rain)

    Now, just for clarity, lets replace begin with open and halt with rain. When you do this, you get a completely new and different meaning of this sentence!

    Open it where warm waters rain = umbrella

    A synonym for umbrella is parachute. Also parasol and a few others. Canopy is also a synonym and that means trees (wood)

    For FF, the parachute saved his life in My War For Me. It also happens that an umbrella is a type of “lid” or “cap” (eyes open but lids closed) (collecting bottle caps) (grandpa always wore his hat) Come to think of it, caps or lids can tie into that jar of olives the kid FF didn’t like gave to him. Also, FF has specifically learned to make lids with screw on caps for his jars that he hid. How important are those lids?

    So where does this get us? I’m not sure. I know there is a Parachute creek in Colorado, and a town of Parachute. There also is a Parasol rock climbing location in the Flat Irons in Colorado. Personally, I believe the TC is in Wyoming in an area on the Wyoming Craton. That is what I’m working on. But, those are just two locations I found in a one second search on google. So, probably there are more options

    I toss out this solution to WWWH to show that this sentence could actually mean something entirely different than what people have been looking for. It didn’t take twisting words around. Just simply replacing the meaning of two known words with alternate meanings.

    • I understand the point you are trying to make but I don’t know if going from halt to rein to rain will be overcomplicating it.

      • OZ10,
        I’m not suggesting to use a different word. Just a different definition of the same word. Halt can mean rein. I just wrote it out in a way to show how we could use the exact words of the poem and they could have a different meaning.

        • FB, but rein is not listed as a definition for halt nor is a synonym.The reins are used to halt the horse but also to steer it. It’s not a break pedal.

          Same thing with rein and rain, not synonyms. Are we simplifying?

          • Oz10,
            Rein is a synonym for halt. See these sources. Halt means to “rein in” or “rein” or “draw up” the horses. (draw is also a word in the poem)

            https://books.google.com/books?id=O1v2CwAAQBAJ&pg=PT2746&lpg=PT2746&dq=synonym+reinhalt&source=bl&ots=3JNbn0l9oC&sig=nMZwVJgdPMFzA_x2UuVviS9Sf04&hl=en&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwi4lcnp2PLbAhWNJXwKHa3UCW8Q6AEIODAB#v=onepage&q=synonym%20reinhalt&f=false

            Also etyomolgyonline gives “rein up” as a synonym of halt.
            https://www.etymonline.com/word/rein

            Scrapbook #73 has this to say
            (note that rain is mentioned in the first paragraph and then FF ends up talking about vocabulary) as he drinks a grapette (connection to soda caps). After you read the quote from the scrapbook 73, look at the definition of weed. Its really rather fascinating.

            Scrapbook #73
            “Spring is out of hibernation in Santa Fe. Several days ago we had 2 inches of RAIN and yesterday the high was 72 degrees. That means life is rapidly regenerating itself. Green is the dominate color again, having just this week replaced the depressing browns and greys of winter.”

            “The two acres surrounding our home are covered with beautiful bluish-purple flowers. My wife says they’re weeds, and I don’t understand why. Who gets to decide what’s a weed and what’s a flower? Some things that seem simple to me can be so complicated for others. I think we should take another look at our definitions. If it’s pretty, why would anyone call it a weed? That’s a derogatory term. Besides, weeds grow much faster than flowers and that’s a plus for us gardeners. I wonder if our nursery sells weed seeds.”

            “As with some definitions, there are many issues in this life that I don’t agree with (“with” is a preposition). Who made the rule that says I shouldn’t end a sentence with a preposition? Probably some Harvard PhD somewhere. Einstein said, “Ending a sentence with a preposition is something up with which I will not put.” He had a very unique way of saying things differently. (My English teacher in high school told me that “There is no such thing as very unique. Either it’s unique or it isn’t and unique doesn’t need to be qualified.” I never liked that woman.”

            “Spring is a time to relax and think. This morning I sat in my plastic folding chair beside our pond, sipping Grapette, while I threw floating fish-food pellets at a big largemouth bass. He likes to cruise into the shallow water and hide under the lily pads. The problem was that he totally ignored my offerings of food, and I don’t understand that either. In this very complicated world that’s just something else to worry about I guess. f”

            unique Definiton of Weed from Merriam-Webster
            “: garment —often used in plural
            2 a : dress worn as a sign of mourning (as by a widow) —usually used in plural
            b : a band of crape worn on a man’s hat as a sign of mourning —usually used in plural”

            So basically an umbrella is like a hat or cap (something which provides protection) It is also something you wear. (begin it where)

            And, it just happens that a parasol is also an umbrella and it actually means, “protection from the sun”. This is interesting because I believe the HOB to be related to the sun (the ultimate oven for “browning” things)

            An umbrella also is connected to SHADOW
            umbel (n.)
            1590s in botany, from Latin umbella “parasol, sunshade,” diminutive of umbra “shade, shadow” (see umbrage).

            While I’m really on another side-track right now from the solve I’m working, I find this interesting enough to at least see if it goes somewhere.

          • FB, they are RELATED as rein in or rein up, back in the 1500s. Not a straightforward or plain English definition. Also, you didn’t explain why rein is also defined as rain. An umbrella is not a parachute, never seen anybody pulling a parachute when it rains or jumping out of an airplane with an umbrella. Just because they look alike doesn’t mean that we can substitute one for the other unless that is our goal. My point is that we should have some commonsensical restraints when making associations and word substitutions.

    • “So where does this get us? I’m not sure.”

      The unspoken reality of the hundreds of posts that came before you.

      • oz10,

        Ever hear of Mary Poppins, she would say different about flying with an umbrella.
        -B

          • Homophones are fair game with the words IN the poem I guess. If the new word adds meaning to that line, sentence or concept within the POEM theme, then you are onto something. If the rabbit hole keeps taking you to crazy town then get out. That’s how I see it anyways.

            Most crazy-town solves have something in common. They depend heavily on info outside the poem.

          • Oz10,
            That quote originally came from this guy who’s better known for writing things like E=mc^2. He went on to write other strange gibberish that maybe two other people in the world fully understood during his lifetime. Maybe Forrest Fenn is aiming for a similar level of understanding with his poem?

            ***Warning, the following contains nerd humor***
            To address your conclusion, if you think that anything goes you might want to try the theory of anything (aka string theory) which has an estimated 10^500 valid permutations.

          • JW, Gods speak in tongues we don’t understand, Einstein, Darwin, Newton, etc…

            Forrest built this poem over a 15 year period, once solved it will take someone ‘precisely’ to a 10 x 10 inch chest somewhere in the Rockies. That is one very serious challenge.

            He wrote that quote from Einstein in his book:
            ‘Imagination is more important than knowlege’ and he also told us it is a matter of thinking not trying. We should be able to reconcile those two.

            So when I do my research, it is as easy to fall into the ‘specialized knowledge’ category as it is to fall into the ‘imagination-ran-wild/crazy-town’ category. It is harder to stay between the two.

          • Oz,
            I agree, but I think things are still lacking in the thought process.
            I think those comments; it’s a matter of thinking vs. trying … imagination vs. knowledge… and another comment; If you can think the right thoughts… not only help with deciphering clue’s references {because we have been told to do just that, read, think, analyze}… but all the above needs action.
            While stomping point to point is an psychical action, what Is see is, the lack of the above in the action to complete the task. This is where planning and observation hits the ground running {because we have been told to do just that, as well}.

            However, If we leave thinking and analyzing, and the overall thought that, imagination is more important than knowledge on the editing floor… planning and observation becomes useless, if we don’t know what to do.

            Don’t go where an 80 yr old can’t, doesn’t say to me the track is difficult. But the idea of walking right to the chest is not as simple as stomping point to point… unless we keep all the above in mind as we continue finalizing the task…

            I’m gonna say this once [ it is an approach to the process ] We might not be looking for the chest’s hidey spot.
            fenn need to find that himself. He created clues at the location he considers special to him, ‘by memory,’ and had to follow his own created clues to ‘complete’ the poem… himself… by using the poem, found a hidey spot within his special location… then simply, cleverly, hid it from the world.
            **I hid the chest before the poem was complete (completed?) He hid the chest in his imagination, in his memories of the location… before and during the act of putting pen to paper.
            He needed to finish the poem by doing exactly what we need/are told to do.

            “…there is no other way to my knowledge”

            End of commentary.

          • OK….I’ll take a spin in the electric chair. Many, repeat, many folks have tried just about everything under the sun to solve Fenn’s poem. All of the techniques shared have varied from super basic dart tosses right on up to complex honeycomb theories that need six different college degrees to understand completely. Fenn has commented over and over with snippets of info and basic advice through the years. Although some folks disagree on the intent or meaning of Fenn’s comments…it seems fairly evident that he takes a keen interest and warns to keep things simple…steering folks away from their over-active imaginations. It is true that he has mentioned thinking and planning and observing as tools required in deciphering his poem….as well as imagination. His basic message has always been about the importance of family values, interacting with varied folks, not being afraid to test the “edges” along with many aspects of outdoor activities. His penchant for collecting Native American objects and learning how folks evolved with the changing climates and pressures of society seem to be very important to Fenn’s ideology and how he views the world in general.
            The basic repetitious recipe that he has offered since around 2013 is to: Read the book(TTOTC)…study the poem…maybe even memorize it. Go back to the book looking for hints that will help with the clues. Consistently he has warned that the first clue is paramount…a must have. There are many comments with that content. The kicker for me is when he adds later…you have to find out-you have to “learn where” the first clue is. They get progressively easier after you “discover where” the first clue is. And yes…another good one is “thinking the right thoughts”.
            This compels me to believe that looking for answers or trying to decipher later clues is pointless until the first clue is “nailed” down. This provides the necessary basis to move forward lifting one foot up and putting it down(step by step) through the remaining clues.
            Did I mention solving the riddle yet? Phew…I thought I slipped and said that awful word.
            I do not believe Fenn had to do anything out there besides physically moving to the hide…twice in one afternoon….with the exception of actually “hiding” the treasure. He didn’t need “any maps or anything”…it was all in his head.
            I smell singed hair!! HUH …I’m going for a swim and cool down.

          • Ken,
            All others aside – i agree with you, overall. Well, until ya said keep it simple. I lean at “try and simplify” and “difficult but not impossible” adding; “if it was easy anyone could do it”… which overall should produce the idea of “what took me so long?” [ honestly, we don’t know when that idea should pop into are heads. At wwwh-?- where we will only know if correct when the chest is found? or maybe the moment we have been wise and found something? or could it be the certainty of the location first and foremost?

            *Are ya practicing your deadman float in the pool yet… hold on a sec, lets do some back strokes…

            You have the right idea imo, that this is a riddle to be understood from the get go. I on the other hand, with my explanation above, think the riddle continues thru the whole process…. right up to the last step we take.

            The other difference i see is; IF my thoughts are correct, it would or at least should, not only help explain some confusing comments or some conflicting comments to be truthful to each other { as bet as possible..without excuses }, But to view the process slightly different.
            The age old questions; tens of thousands wanted to know was… any short cut? Did fenn follow the clues?

            But now that we have that little itty smitten bit [ I guess I could have just stated ‘scant’ ] of information… most of the above thousands say, big deal so what, or I knew it all along… it does effect my solve that keeps failing on every single trip I go on.
            To me, and with a balancing of other comments… the thought of fenn’s own process say a lot to how the poem may play out.

            But there is one thing I completely disagree with you on [ and that’s ok, because that is what this is all about ] you said ~’many folks have tried just about everything under the sun to solve Fenn’s poem.’
            Maybe at the front end of the challenge… at the back end all I see is exactly the same approach… some just add more miles, use transports, still use/do things that fenn has eliminated [ he can’t safe them all ] But all in all… the same method of looking at how to proceed with the final steps.

            Ya can’t argue that…

          • I gotta tell ya’…it’s pretty tough typing with my large arm floaties on…oops…almost dropped my wife’s laptop in the drink! There…OK. So, our major difference Seeker is….well, quite a bit actually. The whole Spring break, difficult but not impossible idea has a different connotation for me. As we all know by now…this isn’t a *one and done* type of challenge. I think folks need to test the waters…not to see if it’s warm or anything…and make some mistakes and learn from them along the way. I know I have made so many that it is laughable at this point. I believe that is part and parcel of the learning process that eventually leads to the right kind of thoughts. I’m going say right up front that I think that the eventual “correct” solution is going to be so rudimentary and simplistic that some are going to keel over…or launch into orbit. That’s my “gut feeling”. “what took me so long?”, right ? I think this takes place right after the searcher discovers for certain “where” the first clue is and pieces together the riddle/map/ poem in it’s entirety….which in it’s map form “does follow” through the entire poem. That’s the answer to the riddle…and I believe it does make true all of the puzzling misconceptions about some of Fenn’s comments.
            And sure…when I said folks have tried everything under the sun, it was really just a blanket statement implying the great lengths people have gone to with the methods and ideas. All over the place and some really wild scenarios. To relieve this malady, the “riddle” must be unlocked…and not how James(TZP) imagined. A “simple” answer will probably do the trick…and satisfy all the doubts.

          • ..”I think folks need to test the waters”..
            that’s more an individual need, than actual, if the poem is done correctly, in theory.
            An-other-words, a searcher may have a part{s} wrong and need to correct it. And of course may need to familiarize themselves with the “real outdoors” I’d dare say some may have never been in the mountains on foot for any length time [ excluding a short camping trip ] or driving to Vegas.

            And not to pop your floaties… My idea of ~what took me so long~ begins right at the starting line… Location of all the clues… then find WWWH {short version} Whether you’re right or not or visa versa, the idea of how it all may unfold might help with understanding the poem.
            Large area vs. small
            Hike vs. drive
            crossing waters vs. view or passage way
            In a tree vs. in a mountain pass { a none human trail }
            stomp clues vs. use clues
            Etc and on and on…

            Psss. I hope you are using the battery on the lap top… Um, or more than your hair may heat up. Just lookin out for ya ken… ken?… Ken?!
            Ah crap…

          • Sure…go ahead and pick on my floaties! What? You’re not supposed to take the live end of the 100′ extension cord in the pool? Huh…imagine that…no wonder no one else came in. Hey where’s kettlekorn?
            One and done most likely not happening…whether botg or flippers in the pool it probably means that this is going to be a “learning” experience over a period of time…that eventually leads to the successful searcher having the right thoughts and figuring out the answer to the riddle. Applying this answer I think will allow this person to plot out the path to the treasure chest. There’s nothing difficult realizing that errors are to be expected and *adjustments* will be crucial…just look at what’s been going on. I believe that IF a searcher has “nailed” the first clue(not just hoping) and has the answer to the rest of the riddle…he/she will be able to successfully follow the clues, like Forrest, to the end. It’s weird writing on a blog with a mask and snorkel on, yes?

  68. Just thoughts.
    Connect a praus war horse, with the paddle of a horse (none deviating) and you might have something.

  69. OZ,
    “Hear me all” and “listen good” tells me that it is the sound of the words that matter. FF has said several times that he doesn’t worry about spelling. So rain and rain sound the same and I believe that is what we need to look for. As far as parachute and parasol, those are synonyms of umbrella.

      • I’ve spent a few days reading over the FF Scrapbooks. I’d read some of them but never all of them until now.

        Interestingly, scrapbook #126 has a photo that reminded me of an umbrella. (see umbrella discussion above)

  70. Aardvarkbatk,
    Its true that we may not know where these clues or ideas lead. But until we are willing to think it through, we will never know

    I firmly believe that the sound of the words are what is important. I also believe that FF has given plenty of hints indicating alternate definitions of words.

    I think ideas need to be followed through to see where they go.

    • Is this in response to my repeating your comment

      ‘So where does this get us. I’m not sure.’?

      FWIW, I’m simply saying that this is possibly the global understatement of the chase. Think about all the posts on all the forums over all these years, and all the collective minutes (hours, OK – days) of vids on youtube by searchers. So much puke being spewed by so many who simply don’t know.

      Your quip doesn’t help with a solve but it sure summarizes the situation. Word, indeed.

        • hey, ken — belated cheers for your ‘fennadryl’ reply to an earlier comment of mine. swwot sent you much entitled props, but by the time I saw it, the thread had advanced so far, I figured no one would see my kudos. I, too, got a grand chuckle from it. Brilliant.

          • thanks aardvark…a little humor goes a long way when the yappers get out of hand.

      • I bet more than a few times Fenn has seen various forum posts or solve videos, chuckled to himself and thought, this guy ain’t the sharpest tool in the shed

  71. Aardvaarkbatk,
    You are absolutely right that “where does this get us?” summarizes might of the chase comments.

    • You should copywrite that. Think of all the political debates, legislative debates, pompous speeches before the UN…

      In hindsight, I’d’ve loved to, at the end of countless three-day corporate strategy meetings over the past decades, declare “So where does this get us? I’m not sure.”

      It should be the title of Fenn’s next book. You’re on to something here.

    • Close, but not close enough is where it gets us! Lol.

      “Many of life’s failures are people who did not realize how close they were to success when they gave up.” (Thomas Edison)

  72. Oz10 on June 29, 2018 at 12:19 pm said:

    Seeker, what are you doing in MN? That is why you haven’t found it…lol.

    What?! You were in MN and didn’t even stop in to say hi? 🙂

  73. Boaz-
    From here it looks like Chris may have seen your issue and cleaned that up…At least I don’t see ads over those links now…please try again…

  74. Before I bring up this topic, I just want to say that I hate knitting! I don’t know what I’m going to do when I get old, because all the little old ladies I know knit or crochet or something and I just am not going to do it. My kids laugh when I tell them that if I had to sit still with a pair of knitting needles, I would go insane and stab someone with knitting needles. So that is why I don’t knit. I hike and kayak and birdwatch instead.

    Now that I have that out of the way, does anyone want to talk about knitting, weaving and sewing in relationship to TTOTC?

    Chapter My War For Me p 75
    Courage wears a crimson coat
    Trimmed in trappings bold;
    Knowledge dons a dress of note,
    Fame’s cloth is gold.
    Far they range and fair they roam
    Much they do and dare,
    While gray-gowned patience sits at home,
    And WEAVES the cloth they wear.

    I suspect this poem has more purpose in TTOTC than to honor Peggy.
    I notice that occationally in FF’s writing, there is a mention of weaving, sewing, knitting.

    p 40 “So I’d just stand there and wait for my turn at the paddle. Mom was always KNITTING and didn’t seem to notice. . .”

    A number of the scrapbook pages show indian articles of clothing that are knitted or stitched

    I am just curious if anyone else has given thought to the poem on page 75 or the fact that mom was knitting and didn’t seem to notice her sons getting a paddling.

    Our kids seldom got paddled when they were young. Maybe if they did something life threatening and we felt the need to point it out to them. But, when kids are getting paddled/spanked/a licking they tend to wail. So its rather surprising that FF’s mother would be knitting and not even notice the drama going on. Which is why I think knitting is mentioned here for a reason.

    And knitting, weaving, leads me to clothing. There is definately a lot of discussion about clothing. As mentioned in one of my earlier posts today, I learned that much to my surprise, the word weed can mean an article of clothing. Scrapbook #98 shows FF’s closet full of clothing. Scrapbook #130 shows FF and his slippers. There is the story about FF’s grandfather who always wore his hat and then there is the hat contest FF did a few years ago which is written about in a couple of scrapbook pages.

    Does anyone have some ideas on why clothing, hats, shoes are mentioned? And, any thoughts on weaving, knitting, etc. ?

    • what came to mind for me was what tangled webs we weave and we all know that hat covers your thinker have a good day remember to stay safe and have fun out there.

    • Looking at the pronunciation of “quickly” – kwik-ly (wik) wick is rooted to weave. Also, Forrest pointed out the wick of a lantern during Nightline? interview. The (-ly) ‘Lee’ sound, means: to be warm/sheltered.

  75. OZ,
    I agree that most solves that lead to crazy town rely upon outside information. I really believe FF when he says that a comprehensive study of geography might help. I do not think that any other topic must be studied in depth. IMO

    • I agree with that. The question is now how deep into geography we should go into? Geography has a wide range of studies. Does ‘comprehensive’ means knowing enough of all those fields under Geography?

      Someone posted recently that knowing the land and its features around the Rockies and how to locate them in a map should be ‘comprehensive’ enough. What do you think?

      • Oz,
        I think comprehensive knowledge of geography is more than just knowing the lay of the land. Since “not far but too far to walk” tells me that we should be looking at something that exists now, but also shows the history of the past. So for me, I think I need to understand how the surface of the land changed over time and how those changes affect todays landscape and can be seen in today’s landscape (treasures old and new).

        Since I believe “I” is water and that the poem is spoken from the point of view of water, I need to understand the water cycle.

        IMO a general understanding of geography will be a start and we may need to look into other areas deeper as the poem tells us.

    • OZ, Crazytown ain’t a bad place to acquire experience, its the on-trail place where life happens …. the poem is off-trail, its the very personal shorthand of the traveler. Good luck guessing whats in the travelors head if you haven’t walked in his moccasins. IMO, OS2.

  76. ken on June 30, 2018 at 9:59 am said:

    “OK….I’ll take a spin in the electric chair. Many, repeat, many folks have tried just about everything under the sun to solve Fenn’s poem. All of the techniques shared have varied from super basic dart tosses right on up to complex honeycomb theories that need six different college degrees to understand completely. Fenn has commented over and over with snippets of info and basic advice through the years. Although some folks disagree on the intent or meaning of Fenn’s comments…it seems fairly evident that he takes a keen interest and warns to keep things simple…steering folks away from their over-active imaginations. It is true that he has mentioned thinking and planning and observing as tools required in deciphering his poem….as well as imagination. His basic message has always been about the importance of family values, interacting with varied folks, not being afraid to test the “edges” along with many aspects of outdoor activities. His penchant for collecting Native American objects and learning how folks evolved with the changing climates and pressures of society seem to be very important to Fenn’s ideology and how he views the world in general.
    The basic repetitious recipe that he has offered since around 2013 is to: Read the book(TTOTC)…study the poem…maybe even memorize it. Go back to the book looking for hints that will help with the clues. Consistently he has warned that the first clue is paramount…a must have. There are many comments with that content. The kicker for me is when he adds later…you have to find out-you have to “learn where” the first clue is. They get progressively easier after you “discover where” the first clue is. And yes…another good one is “thinking the right thoughts”.
    This compels me to believe that looking for answers or trying to decipher later clues is pointless until the first clue is “nailed” down. This provides the necessary basis to move forward lifting one foot up and putting it down(step by step) through the remaining clues.
    Did I mention solving the riddle yet? Phew…I thought I slipped and said that awful word.
    I do not believe Fenn had to do anything out there besides physically moving to the hide…twice in one afternoon….with the exception of actually “hiding” the treasure. He didn’t need “any maps or anything”…it was all in his head.
    I smell singed hair!! HUH …I’m going for a swim and cool down.”

    Ken/Dal,

    It is my humble opinion that the above needs to go on the Fundamental Guidelines page with just a bit of minor editing.

    Well said Ken.

  77. I’m inside enjoying a bit of AC and eating lunch, taking a break from rebuilding the rear end I pulled out of my donor truck. As I have been tinkering I pause and give some thought to the chase while I sit in front of the fan. I’d like to throw out a new idea or concept, maybe a new way of thinking about the poem. I do not think I have seen anywhere her on the hoD something like this being discussed nor considered. I think I want to call this way of looking at the poem as “cultural relevance” – at least for now. It may be that in the future, this term may be superseded by something even more relevant.

    So here’s what got me to thinking along these lines:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QjvzCTqkBDQ

    I am of the generation that was by-in-large was shaped by Sir Paul McCartney and the Beatles. I can sing the songs without having heard them for 20 or 30 years, as well as many of my peers, some of you included. What if Mr. Fenn is trying to get us to see his “cultural relevance” with this poem/chase. What if his intent is to get more folks to “tune into” a way of living life – to get a better feel of times that he lived. He has mentioned numerous times that he was born 100 years too late. Maybe he wants us to go back that far as well, as we prepare to solve the poem. (This is coming out quite right – the words are not formulating so well today.) What if Mr. Fenn is wanting us to see something that “everyone” saw at a particular time in history? Does he want us to be able to “sing the songs” of the time (even if they are not songs) without thinking?

    Really, I am not trying to “over think it”, just trying to figure out what frame of mind I need to be in to solve the puzzle.

    • Swwot,

      Can I be very critical? The major problem I see is; The rear end of your donor truck should not be near the fan… It might just be me, but I don’t see how all this is supposed to unfold correctly, the way you’re proceeding.

      Just food for thought…

  78. Is that a closed group?
    I would love to join some Facebook Fenn/Treasure groups.
    Anybody have any good recommendations?

    • No Place For The Meek is a good one. EVERYONE there is pretty serious and all are very polite to your ideas, some pretty smart thinkers in there!
      Bill was searching CO…

  79. Wait one second–I don’t hear Mama Cass Elliot tuning up her vocal cords quite yet; at this here moment…

      • I’m going to change it up a bit—Spent the last year Rocky Mountain Way Couldn’t get much higher Out to pasture Think its safe to say Time to open FIRE —

  80. Very good points Ken and Seeker. I’d like to add that while the solve is probably a simple one we have to understand what FF means by simple. From his statements it seems to mean that no specialized knowledge is needed and imagination is an important factor. So this means less research into science, place names, and history, and more thinking using the knowledge we already have. After all imagination is more important than knowledge.

    As both of you stated we need to solve the riddle and learn / discover WWWH. I think solving the riddle comes first. I’ll speak from my perspective now and the solution I will be using beginning July 2. It is my opinion and what I will be working with.

    The riddle in the first stanza helps us with WWWH. Several locations can be found in the Rockies based on this riddle and they’re geographical features. The one I am focused on the most has a little bit extra in the feature that makes it seem like it could be the correct one but I could be wrong. I’ll be there long enough to check other locations based on the riddle that leads me to WWWH.

    WWWH is a part of a larger geographical feature that helps me understand HoB. Below HoB is not far from WWWH. This is where I head toward NPFTM and NPUYC.

    I’ll check these spots with the idea that I may need to make changes based on what I see on location. This is to prevent me from finding the first two clues and walking past the remaining seven.

    I am excited and looking forward to the next two weeks!

    • Ok, But two weeks from now at 5pm… I want answers… proof… I want a picture of a griz eating the find. lol. a griz with gold braces… Yeah! that would do it for me.

    • I’m new to searching and considering different approaches. Are you proceeding in a manner to solve most clues along the way, or do you aleady have all solutions in mind and are following a somewhat determined path?

    • Aaron…good news you are heading out again ! I’m kinda jealous…
      Here is one of Fenn’s comments that I think about that may be useful for you…
      2017 On the Road With Charlie: “But if you’re gonna find the treasure, you’re gonna have to solve *the riddle* that’s in my poem. The nine clues that are in my poem. Nobody’s gonna happen on that treasure chest.”
      It is fairly obvious that to find the treasure a searcher has to decipher the nine clues. To me, it seems that Fenn is lumping the nine clues as *one* in terms of *the riddle*. I do agree there is pertinent info in the first stanza to nail down the first clue…which I believe allows the searcher to move forward and piece the entire riddle together as a unit.
      Have a great trip and have a dang blast!

      • Thanks Ken, my family and I will enjoy every minute of it!

        The solution I am using is in line with all that you described. 🙂

    • I think I stumbled on what the riddle is late last year. From that point I’ve been doing my best to learn. Now, everything appears to be spelled out. I will say this, even if you know what the riddle is, it’s no walk in the park. Some things that seem so simple now was difficult to figure out. It’s been hard to get out of my own way and let the information lead me.

      At this point, it’s a waiting game… I won’t be able to travel for a little while. I have a plan and a spot to search. I’m not saying I’m right but I have a very good feeling. If I’m wrong, it would be one of the most incredible coincidences I’ve ever seen.

      I guess time will tell…

      As always, IMO…

      TimM

      • everyone that frequents here and MW should know the riddle. i have announced (in detail) several times what it entails. there is also a very telling scrapbook that confirms it……perhaps

        • BadgeR,

          I disagree. I’ve never seen anything mentioned on either website about what I believe the riddle is. Nothing in F’s books mention it and it’s not mentioned in the scrapbooks.

          Why would F use a riddle for his poem and tell what the riddle is? I doubt that he would tip his hand like that, especially if he wanted the chase to last for a long time.

          IMO

          TimM

        • BargeR;

          Why don’t you and Butch get together and duke it out to decide which one of you is can wear the title of “Mr. Know it all.” JMO – JDA

        • Thanks JDA!!

          If I am fortunate enough to find it, you’re on my list to share with!!

          TimM

    • Kettle Korn’s silence likely tells us everything we need to know. The more boastful searchers are, the harder they fall.

      • Indeed, my distaste for crow keeps me more tight-lipped than out corn eating friend. I find it ironic that the crows eat corn in game of Thrones and our corn eating friend will be eating crow.

        Winter is coming and still no chest nor treasure has been found.

        • Summer is still young, fellow San Diegan.
          Leaving tomorrow to search near where you will be. My 4th long drive.

          • Hi DeerX, glad to hear another San Diegan is on the hunt. It is a long drive. I’ve made it myself. This time we flew into Salt Lake and drove the rest. Will you be in west Yellowstone?

            Yes summer is young, but winter is still coming.

          • HI Aaron: like you, I”ve done it both ways: driving straight through (2100+ miles R/T) and the hybrid approach of flying into SLC, and driving from there. One thing’s for sure: I won’t be driving it round trip again. Too presumptuous. I wish I lived where JDA does — he’s so close, I’d have found it by now! 😉

        • Oh my!
          We have not even had the 4th of July!
          Winter is far off.
          Let’s all be patient.

          Clearly Clueless

          • I should have prefaced that statement by letting you know to ignore it if you are not a Game of Thrones fan. In the show, and books, the “winter is coming” line is a family slogan and they start it very early on. Still, eventually it will arrive for us too. I’m happy to be able to search this week with no snow. Random fireworks till 11:30 here in West Yellowstone kept waking me up but it just makes this cup of coffee even better.

      • Maybe he’s sitting there eating kettle corn, trying to figure out what went wrong. Then again maybe not.

      • Kettle Korn’s outcome was never in doubt, I tried to tell him, but he didn’t listen. They never listen. 🙁

      • IMO you are wrong Zap! Either they are still trying to get permission to get on the property legally, or trying to figure out how to get in and out in the dark with the bear threat(real threat!), or they already have it. It’s a simple solve but Forrest doesn’t want his place of resting to be known or I’d tell ya. McB has flown to the US and met up with Travis. Both their silence tells a story! I wrote to FF and let him know that his TC will be revealed sooner than later but who knows, maybe those 2 are trying to figure out how to get up there without having the property owners STOP them on the way out! I’d love to give you guys the solve and have Y’all RUN there but like I said, I am not going to reveal the location or pictures of my solve. I wrote to Forrest and sent pictures of his spot but I’m almost positive those 2 already have it so hold on tight peeps! 🙂 It takes time to lawyer up and get ‘er done! 🙂

        • If I were a betting man, Deano Bravo, I would bet you a bunch of money that you are wrong. IMO -It is still out there, it is NOT on private land and McB and Travis haven’t the slightest idea where it is secreted. JMO – BUT, an opinion based on 30 months of toil and 19 trips to THE area that Indulgence will be found in – again, JMO – JDA

          • JDA I keep trying to type in my email address for you but it don’t seem to get posted?

            littledab
            at
            Hotmail
            dot
            com

            prolly still won’t…I’ll show ya if it does and you write me!!!

          • how much is a bunch? one man’s treasure is another man’s garbage ya know 🙂

          • 10 trips JDA…over 30,000 miles driven…over 40 miles hiked. It’s pretty easy….your effort will be worth the cold…better get up there before the leaves blossom cuz there’s NO CHANCE of seeing it if you don’t 🙂 IMO of course… :p

          • JDA…nothing yet as far as I can see but I’ll email you at yours. Please resend so I can chuckle if need be 🙂 AOL = HOLY CRAP ANCIENT!! :p

        • Deano Bravo: I may not know specifically where Travis is looking, but I know enough based on his posts that he’s not close to looking in the right spot. He was thwarted by 5 feet of snow on May 5th, and there would have been no such difficulties at the correct location on that date, IMO. He also wrote “I was there yesterday (May 5) I got within 5 miles had to stop. Snow drifts were to deep and slushy.” He then failed again on May 21st: “McB we need to talk… I just got back. Confirmation on everything. Still very deep snow. Everything frozen. Confirm this and I’ll send my email. you and I are dead on.”

          In my opinion, you can get within 500 feet of the chest pretty much 365 days a year.

          • I’d say that’s because McB was STUCK on Omega’s IMO. McB posted a day or so before we last heard from him that it could be on “two” rocks or “ten” rocks and that the chest could be on top of them or inbetween them and covered with leaves from years gone by. They refined their search after my post and IMO they got it. I totally expect it to be revealed right after they lawyer up. Really, it’s a pretty simple solve if you get there before the leaves blossom and you are paying attention. It’s “in the wood”! Heck, simple guys. I find it hard to believe that McB would fly to the US without it being “in hand”??? And if they didn’t get it then that means it’s still there. But think about it…McB has been SILENT! That’s NOT McB’s M.O.!! They were stuck on the Omega summit IMO and that’s where the snow came in! They refined it to be a 1/2 mile walk up to the mountain and also mentioned the “Camp” that was involved with the solve. In order to know this you either have to have “inside” information or have drove up the back side and seen it. If you are hiking to the Omega summit you have to drive right past it. They got it or are still trying to get on the property…lol. Nothing personal but if you had the pictures I have you would be RUNNING for the mountain. It’s about 3/4 of a mile off the spot where FF parked and it’s as OBVIOUS as can be. I have pictures but does FF really want everyone to know where HIS spot is? I tried to get pdenver to write me at my email but nothing. JDA could retrieve it. It’s not that bad at all. ALL IMO but every searcher should just RUN to this location and get there before those 2 but I fear it’s too late Y’all…McB went silent for a reason! 🙂

          • It’s retrievable all year long but snow is obviously involved during the winter season. Simple solve if you’ve been on that mountain and seen the headstone under the grass. Some lady said that a father and son camped out and got ate up by mosquitos but seen nothing. IN THE WOOD = IN THE “F” PEOPLE! McB said he was going to come to the US and go get it himself and then he said, oh Lord please give me patients! That tells me that Travis possibly couldn’t get permission AGAIN because they are getting very anal about letting outsiders hike on their property…I have first hand knowledge! 🙂 simple solve…I even drove up and watched to see if any cars were parked on the road Sunday, Monday, and Tuesday but I didn’t see any! I was going to make sure they knew where to look so Forrest could rest his weary head because those 2 hairs are in there for a reason IMO…DNA! If it’s found after FF passes his DNA is there for proof and title to the gold. I got the solve IMO but I’m not the right guy to retrieve it. It would tarnish the chase so I was just hoping for something for solving it for someone. They got it or they are trying to figure out how to get in and back out without being seen and having to fight it out in court IMO…simple solve JDA!

          • Deano,

            This is just my opinion and I may be way off… but I honestly believe this is going to be the biggest crow meal to ever be served in the history of the chase!!

            Like I said, I may be wrong… but I doubt it.

            Patiently waiting….

            TimM

          • D.B.

            You say, ” I got the solve IMO but I’m not the right guy to retrieve it. It would tarnish the chase so I was just hoping for something for solving it for someone. ”

            Pardon my directness, but this is BS. If you know where it is – Go Get It! How would your finding Indulgence “Tarnish the chase?” B.S. Are you Forrest’s private secretary or something?

            We all have a chance. NO ONE has ANY inside info – no matter who you are, so how could you “Tarnish the chase?” Sorry – I call ’em like I see ’em – and I see someone blowing hot air – JDA

          • P.S. If you are so much in the know, you would know why McB is no longer posting. Just sayin’ – JDA

          • you can call BS all day long JDA but if you were to write me I would show you my solve and explain my situation. Forrest Fenn is an honorable man and deserves for a better man to find it and sooner than later….My email address is right there if you don’t believe me. It posted…heck anybody can 🙂 Nothing personal but I’m not the right guy and I’ve told this to at least 3 people up here where I live and they understand…it’s not complicated, it’s the truth.

          • DB – As I said, I will NOT read your solve. I read NO ONES solve but my own. Sorry about that – Nothing personal – It is just one of my “Rules” – Good luck.
            JDA

  81. Wondering if anyone has ideas on why Robert Redford is mentioned in the first chapter of TTOTC. FF said, “If Robert Redford had ever written anything he probably could have done it better than the guy who wrote that Gatsby book”. That comment was really random. Why talk about all these famous writers and then throw in Robert Redford? I have some ideas on why he got thrown into this chapter, but haven’t decided for certain just yet.

    For one thing, I believe that all the stories FF tells where cars are mentioned in TTOTC, have an underlying theme about mountain building. The car represents the travel through history to the current time, with the “end is ever drawing nigh”. So, with that in mind, I wonder if Robert Redford is a hint to red mountain or red rock formations. (Ford=Car=Mountain, IMO).

    I’ve got another very good idea on why I think Robert Redford was thrown randomly into that chapter of TTOTC. But, I haven’t decided if I’m giving away something I shouldn’t just yet.

    Does anyone else see the car as a travel through time representing mountains? And, does anyone have any interesting ideas on why Robert Redford is tossed into TTOTC so randomly?

    • Redford did write a book, The Outlaw Trail: A Journey Through Time, published 1978…seems likely Mr. Fenn would have known this at time of writing TTOTC.

      • Especially since Robert Redford has stayed at f’s home before.

      • LingeringDoubt,
        My own rules for solving prevent me from looking at Redford’s book. I really think we must use the poem, a good map, and hints from TTOTC. We’ve been told a comprehensive study of geography might help. So those comments lay out the rules I must follow to solve. I think Redford’s book falls under “special knowledge” which is not needed.

        However; I wasn’t really asking about Redford’s book which I think is irrelevant. I think that FFs comment about him might be a hint. It came out of the blue. He had been rambling on about other writers and then all of a sudden, he suggests Robert Redford and just moves on. No further discussion. That suggests to me that it might be a subtle hint. But, I don’t think it’s hinting at Redford’s book so much as his name.

        IMO

        • a redd is a shallow depression made by spawning salmon/trout in stream gravels and a ford is a place to cross a stream. Not sure if this helps.

          • nutallthere,
            That is very interesting information. Thanks for sharing.

        • Ah, I understand. I’ll clarify:

          1. I simply find it curious Mr. Fenn suggested Robert Redford had not written any books, when in fact he had….thus my mention of the book. I wasn’t even aware Redford had authored the book until your query prompted me to check, so learned something new today!

          2. I, for one, do not see cars as representing a travel through time representing mountains…Redford does not equate to ‘Red Ford’ which does not equate to x Mountain IMO.

          • One addition in the broader context of ATFs and the Poem, I do believe car = vehicle = horse = treasure…for example, one alone could ride boldly on a treasured horse….and that horse could also be referred to as a vehicle or car.

            IMO

          • I believe Catcher in the Rye ended with Holden watching his sister ride a horse in a circle as he gave up his dream to run away to Colorado . (Its been a long time, dont quote me.) However, subtle symbolism is important.

      • LingeringDoubt: yes — Forrest absolutely knew Robert Redford had written a book at the time TTOTC came out.

      • Made my wife watch Jeremiah Johnson last night. The directions to find beaver was “west to Rockies and turn left”. Not much help there,

    • Redford is an environmentalist, I believe he and Fenn knew each other and he may have purchased some art from Fenn,. He was the main character in the Great Gatsby movie, and he directed A River Runs Through It (fly fishing). Lots of other overlaps.

    • @flutterby, you might look at the style that the Outlaw Trail was written and illustrated. To me that might be the reason it was cryptically mentioned in TTOTC.

    • Flutterby: the reason for Redford is the same reason for Brad Pitt in the Scrapbooks. That, and “Movies lie to you.”

  82. Newbie here,,, I stumbled upon this treasure hunt a couple of years ago and found it interesting to say the least. I have not read the book but did look at the poem. Last week I was on vacation and it was too darn hot here in misery to do anything out side so last sunday i started watching some videos of FF. After reading some of comments and using google. I plotted a few points, thought I’d deciphered some things only to find the maze of possibilities to be vast and yet singular to one mans mind. FF loves the play on words to the above discussion it could mean Fording a river/creek. What I am having the hardest time with is trying to nail down what spot would FF throw his body down for all of eternity. I will say I find myself around yellowstone and yet some of his comments lead me SE to lander (ft.brown) but if i take his comment you dont have to know history as a fact…boom back to YS…A friend and I have a trip planned this fall to attend pat keenes yuba river bash. I may have to convince him a detour is in order. This site is by far the most informative and tells me great minds do think alike, with the exception of the hoaxers

    • I would be cautious in considering f said you don’t have to know history as fact.

  83. I popped in to share my thoughts on crow preparation and other valuable junk. As far as crow recipies, has anyone tried smoking it? Not like a cigarette, but like bathed in a brine with a few cloves and other seasonings? The crow, not you. Then, smoking the crow with forest pine smoke? Not just smoke from pine cones and needles, but maybe even the whole tree? Or several trees? If you answered no to these questions, then good, you might not be the cause of recent forest fires. If you answered yes, hopefully it was to the bathing in a brine with cloves and spices question. If it was you being bathed in the stuff, you may smell good, but you might want to seek medical attention. I’m not sure cloves are good for you. If you try this method of cooking your crow, please do so where you are allowed to have an open flame. You don’t want to be the one the police are looking for if your smoking can be seen from 100 miles away! On another note, I had to do some surgery on my frog. His ribbit was leaking when I would face him toward the sky and some of the contents from his stomach would leak out. Gross and dangerous, I know! So I took out his leaky esophagus and replaced it with a new one. I will take him out for a stroll after my crow finishes its smoking process. Maybe I will take my black crow with me as a snack the next time I take my fog up with me to find Indulgence.

  84. Hi All;

    Not liking the taste of crow, Dan (My step-son) and I made an unannounced search yesterday. Made a very quick one day trip. No luck – again!!! DARN!!!

    Saw a Grizzley, 40 – 50 Buffalo, 5 Mountain Sheep, 2 Elk, several deer, a few antelope and an eagle and LOTS of beautiful country – Flowers abloom – Grasses green and (believe it or not) a very light dusting of snow – can you believe it – June 30 and snow!!! W O W.

    Found what we were sure was something I suspected was near where we think Indulgence is located. Got VERY excited, but NADA!!! DARN!!!

    We definitely feel we are in the correct “general” area. but so far, NADA!!! 🙁 JDA

    • JDA,

      You know I am always amazed when I travel in the mountains, the wildlife is everywhere and all you have to do is look. Well sorry no luck again but you have great adventures and as for me that’s what I want if I don’t come across the chest. So far the adventures are all I have had too, but one day I’ll get back out there and give it another try.

      Keep on keeping on,
      Bur

      • Thanks Bur – Yes, All we have to do is open our eyes and look – It is there for us to see – somewhere.

        Yes, a great adventure – And we too will return and I will Keep on Keeping on – JDA

      • “You know I am always amazed when I travel in the mountains, the wildlife is everywhere and all you have to do is look.”

        My grandfather taught me this and I’ve tried to impart it to several Boy Scouts over the years. Wild life sense the presence of humans so stand still, so there’s no movement that catches our attention. Survival instinct, I suppose. But it’s like those posters that were popular in the 80s of just blots of colors but where if you refocused your eyes, planets and space craft could then be seen. Same in the wilderness. Refocus while looking into a forest and magically elk, dear, grouse appear. It’s worth the effort and missed by many I imagine.

        I do think the 40-50 buffalo JDA saw would be hard to escape the attention of even the most distracted human, though. Have you seen the picture of the sleeping single buffalo Cynthia posted on her site? Still as a rock, but didn’t exactly blend in and disappear into its surroundings, for sure. I suppose one could argue that Darwin might suggest that natural camouflage has not been a necessary characteristic for the survival of the buffalo.

    • JDA,
      Glad you got out to do another search. Sorry you came up empty handed, but the trip sounds like it was wonderful.

  85. Well, a fun couple days of reading, first butch starting fires, flutter by throwing out some really good ideas and actual discussions and JDA taking a trip and no chest (but no crow either! I live by the ‘under promise and over deliver’ mantra)…whew that was a fun read. FB I agree more with those who said it is the ability to straddle imagination and crazy town, but the rabbit holes sure are fun, huh?!? I think my most recent thoughts are around the backwards bike, we have to shift the paradigm (dime?), you have to pay attention but be childlike in your thinking. …narrower and narrower and (THEN) deeper and deeper…I’m trying to find that crack where the sidewalk ends (S.S., I’m starting to understand the older searchers yapping in cryptics)

    • If you don’t understand the backwards bike your still be working on your solve a thousand years from now, a subtle but blatantly obvious hint/clue imo. We have to remember this poem isn’t for everyone and it isn’t supposed to be, that’s why it’s so difficult for the majority, that’s the thrill of the Chase! If everyone understood it what fun would that be, the chase would of finished the same year it started! 🙂

      • Sure will be great when you can come across the pond and show us (the majority) just how to read the poem, and save us a thousand years of effort – JDA

      • Geezzuz another fortune cookie post.

        You need to know… you don’t understand… you must remember… it so obvious… but you, the majority, doesn’t really have a chance [ and that thought should “thrill” all us dummies?]… it’s too hard for us, but not for… me me me you you you…

        I guess fenn was lying when he said; we all have the same opportunity, but really meant; ya’ll really don’t stand a chance.

        Well, except for you… who has only posted about how smart you think you are, tell all, we should worry because in the next few years it will be unsolvable, and has never added anything to an actual conversation.

        That 7% of crazies estimate, fenn remarked on, is climbing through the roof. ** Well, IMO of course. **

      • Butch –

        My recollection was that there was a tv show about people trying to ride the bicycle with handlebars that turned the wheel the opposite direction.

        Right after that show aired, and anyone could have seen it, Fenn made a comment. His comment did not preceded the nation wide tv program.

        I didn’t think there was any clue at the time but I would like to revisit the events.

        Do you have a link to the original Fenn post?

        Thanks!
        Lugnutz

        • Lug here is the link you are looking for. It started on Jenny’s site:
          Featured Questions with Forrest / Forrest Fenn’s Treasure Hunt / Weekly Words from Forrest

          Featured Question and Weekly Words from Forrest Fenn: Get Back in the Box

          by Jenny Kile · July 1, 2016

          thrill of the chase fennMr. Fenn,

          I am not even close to solving your riddle. I’ve tried for months and nothing works. I am not asking for a clue to the treasure, I’m asking for a clue to the clues. Please help me. ~Mary.

          Dear Mz. Mary,
          The solve is difficult for many searchers because their minds think the clues are tougher to decrypt than they really are.

          Some say they are trying to think outside the box, as if the solution lies somewhere out there.

          Until now I have resisted telling them to get back in the box where their thoughts are comfortable and flow more easily.

          The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust. To illustrate my point go to YouTube – Smarter Every Day. f

          Hope this helps – JDA

      • Yo Butch…I’m almost tempted to buy you a freakin’ plane fare just to put an end to everyone’s misery. I think the person that actually solves this thing is not going to be one that feels the need to talk about how dumb everyone is and inept in comparison. Give it a rest dude…

  86. Ok I’m back down the canyon by Lander…started at his swimming hole and follow the canyon down (a map) and too far to walk is lander…Looking at the fact he (or his attorneys) have filed a claim on BLM….

    • trying to cheat in a backdoor, be it legal archives, car rental records, flight logs….is definitely (errr, most likely) not how the poem is intended to be read. have you also considered kidnapping and hypnotism prior or as an alternate plan?
      its not you, its me

    • Koda,

      You said; “Looking at the fact he (or his attorneys) have filed a claim on BLM….” You need to state the truth here on hoD, where did you get your information from to make your statement as * fact *?

  87. Hey Dal, FYI… the vertical amazon ad at the bottom of the pages overruns onto the links at the bottom of the page and then kicks the reader back up page some… it makes it almost impossible to click on the links… I’m sure other iPad users have noticed this…. just thought I’d let ya know….. see ya my friend..

    • Focused, is it just in the phone that you are seeing this? This site uses a 2011 WordPress theme and the option for responsive design, design that fits all screen sizes, wasn’t as good back then as it is now. Just curious.

      • Aaron,
        It’s not on my phone, it’s was on my iPad… I just tried it again and it seems to be working right now….. maybe it was a glitch on my end,,, all is good now….. have a great day Aaron … see ya my friend

  88. Hi all, Forrest, Dal
    I have not been around, due to a loss in my family etc. I was wondering if there was the Yellowstone meet up?
    I sure would of liked that. Any link or info?
    Regards, Lou Lee…..chased by bears in jellystone park.

    • Cynthia posted some pictures on her page! Unfortunately I missed it as well…

    • Great Get-together. about 21 people – A good time was had by all – See Cynthia’s blog site – JDA

  89. Well. I got forced over this morning at work. These 16 hour shifts are brutal… especially since we don’t get lunches or breaks!!

    Oh well, I’ll make the best of it and use this time to do more research for my upcoming search!!

    Stay safe out there, everyone!!

    TimM

  90. Zap, I’m not making that drive again either, unless I for sure know where the chest is. As I did last time I made it 😉

    We will be flying back from Missoula this time. Looking forward to visiting Glacier National Park for the first time!

    • Aaron,
      Might I ask a personal question-?- about are flying for time allowance, or convenience.
      It’s not just you, and I do understand about how much time folks have available can fluctuate from person[s] to person[s] [ and groups ].

      But I never understand the hurry up and go, I must search my spot or I’ll bust a gut… and miss all the things, places, interesting people or just a simple view that may take your breathe away [ only to never come across it ] on the journey to get there, wherever there is, just because there’s a pot of gold at the end of the rainbow.

      Oh right, the personal question/inquiry…
      Wouldn’t it be nice, even satisfying, just to look at the rainbow?

      I’ll share a little personal with you… This is my wife’s daily ritual just to help us exists in a world that moves so fast, there is little time for actual pleasures; up at 4:30am and out the door at 5:50, drive 15 miles to a train ride of 45 minutes to bus another 15 minute to be at work by for 7:30, only to leave at 4:30 pm to walk back to the train and repeat the opposite to arrive home about 6:30 pm, have dinner, spend a couple hours relaxing, just to rinse and repeat the next day.
      [12hrs] seeing the same thing every day.

      Regardless of your daily routine, or what you do for a living to just survive in a world that nothing seem consistent enough to [ prices of food, gas, clothing, medical an all the thing we “all” need to work for ] to plan an excursion without major considerations…

      The last thing I would want to do is force her to rush through/fly over the countryside, the sight, the other adventures… just to get there to have a poke and hope search… and forgo the opportunity of seeing what there is along the journey to “just get there.”

      Maybe it’s just me… but that is what I call, TTOTC… enjoying the ride to wherever…

    • Seeker: I think there’s something to be said for seeing the sights on the way … one time. But most of the drive from southern California to the Yellowstone area is boring, boring, boring. It starts with the first 4 hours through the Mojave Desert to Vegas. I’ve literally done that drive over 100 times (mostly for meteorite hunting trips), so there is nothing new for me to see. (Not to mention that I-15 through Vegas has been horrible for months due to construction.)

      From Vegas to Arizona there is nothing to see. The Virgin River Gorge is pretty nice as you cut off the corner of Arizona getting to Utah. Zion is an excellent side trip that’s not far east of I-15 if you want to spice up the long trip. I’ve been there many times before, but my wife and I stopped there on our way back from our last Montana trip. We also stopped at Sundance, which is tiny but beautiful (I wouldn’t even call it a town), and drove through Park City and around the Deer Creek Reservoir with great views of the southern Wasatch.

      But Utah is a very long state to drive through when your primary destination is Wyoming or Montana. Far better to fly to Salt Lake City or Jackson; slightly more expensive to fly into Bozeman. Vacation time is precious, and so when I apportion some of it to Fenn treasure hunting, efficiency is my primary concern. I’d rather trade 30+ driving hours on I-15 for an extra couple days in New Zealand, Italy, France or Maui.

      • You seem to have driven the route a few times… gone rock hounding.. stopped at a few places… ok, every consider a slightly different route? Maybe even start of in a different spot?.. like drive the coastal road to N. Cal. I hear the waters are warm this time of year.
        Busting chops aside… many don’t have the opportunity that you create yourself… I’m just thinking most would enjoy a better plan that just a jump the gun start.

        • Seeker…my limited number of Fenn trips have primarily included “side-trips”. My realistic approach has been to have fun and see the sights that are in the surrounding areas. Folks that do not do this are not thinking clearly in my opinion. This is a large country with so much to enjoy…why not take advantage?

          I will admit though….my FIRST cross-country Fenn excursion was one WILD ride ! Approximately 4500 miles Round trip with wild eyes…I took my wife and I think she learned a few crazy things about me that I didn’t even realize at the time. Fun stuff just the same…we laugh about it now…but that is not the way to go.

          • IM PIPING IN ken this quest has made me more observant to say the least you got to pay attention in focused detail to whats around you and the thinking stretches the boundaries the good thing is this is no longer just a bubble we live in. have a great day to all be safe have fun. jeff burch.

      • And you didn’t mention the drive north of SLC to Pocatello, Idaho Falls, and on to West Yellowstone. Maybe not beautiful, but nicer than Las Vegas North. You could always look at Chief Pocatello for a break 🙂 – JDA (Just giving you a hard time) 🙂

        • JDA: the drive through eastern Idaho is certainly more visually interesting than Nevada and much of Utah, and we actually stayed in Pocatello on one of our trips. (Cool basaltic lava field on the east side of I-15 as you’re coming into Pocatello from the south.) Not as fond of the drive once you’re on Rt. 20 — too many tiny towns that you have to slow down to nothing. Seems like you’ll never get to West Yellowstone.

          • Hope you had a nice stay in Pocatello. Yes, cool basaltic lave flows. Yes, when I have driven 20 – the 65mph/45 mph over and over is a pain – But pretty country – JDA

      • Hi Seeker:

        “I’m just thinking most would enjoy a better plan that just a jump the gun start.”

        I suspect most would agree with you — particularly those who feel they’ve only got one shot at this (e.g. traveling from overseas). Might as well see as much as you can on the way to/from investigating your solution.

        But a BOTG search for Fenn’s treasure is not a vacation for me — it’s work. I prefer to keep treasure hunting strictly separate from sightseeing. There is a whole lot of the world I’ve never seen; probably two dozen of those places are more important to me to see once than seeing Yellowstone, the Grand Tetons, Zion, Bryce, Death Valley, the Grand Canyon, Yosemite, Kings Canyon, Lassen or Glacier for the umpteenth time.

        • Well Zap, there’s the difference between you and me.
          Not unlike ken I have the same or more round trip mileage to just about anywhere in the Rockies. Am gonna stop in Cawker city KS to see the ball of string, and for a cawfee. I may drive North just to “take in” the Dakotas or southwest for nay number of reasons and see what I find in between that I would never of thought of… Then when I get to my theory area, it shouldn’t take much more than one afternoon to complete the task.

          Fenn followed the clue, tells us we should have certainty of the location and path beforehand.. so if he [ knowing the answers, like he tells us we should as well ] can do it in that time span… so, we should as well.

          Because i’m gonna believe that fenn is being straight-up about following the clues and that there is no other way to his knowledge… even for him “when he hid the trove”
          The only excuse/complaint you may ever hear from me is, if my cawfee is cold.

        • Hi Seeker: agreed — our priorities are different. I’ve been to all 50 states (and 7 Canadian provinces), so any further U.S. sightseeing is a pretty low priority compared to other spots in the world (though I still haven’t seen Devil’s Tower or Mt. Rushmore, and need to check those boxes someday).

          “Fenn followed the clue, tells us we should have certainty of the location and path beforehand..”

          I do not disagree that we *should*. But clearly that hasn’t stopped people from thinking they did have that certainty and giving it a go.

          The truth is, you will leave home with doubts. Or at least you would be wise to have them. Since you don’t have the treasure chest before you leave home, you can’t “know” if you’ve even got the right WWWH — Forrest has said as much. Yet paradoxically, you must have that first clue nailed down or you should stay home and play Canasta. So we’re left deciphering the difference between having the first clue nailed down (which we must), and knowing it’s right (which we can’t).

          • Zap…just talk…no smack. In your last post to Seeker you said you can’t “know” if you’ve even got the right WWWH. Finally…you have come full circle and say it like it is. I agree that a searcher needs to have confidence and feel positive….but that first clue is a *beach*. I believe that is part of the challenge…to keep folks working…no Spring Break…yada yada. I believe that is where knowing the answer to the *riddle* in it’s entirety will “nail” it down. I believe that is the only way to …”sure for the who did.” This is a great line of “work” ain’t it !?

          • You underestimate me, Zap. When the time comes there will be no doubt, only a back up plan. Because Unlike you, I’m not looking for the chest.

          • I don’t see how I can underestimate anyone who in 3 years has given no indication of progress toward solving the first clue.

          • Zap,
            You say you’d rather spend time in NZ, Italy, France, Maui?

            New Zealand? If you’ve seen one sheep station you’ve seen them all, and the place is infested with hobbits.

            Italy? When I walk around there I feel like I have no fashion sense. If I want to feel that way I can rewatch Zoolander for a lot cheaper. Also those Italians only talk about three things, what they had for breakfast, what they had for lunch and what they’re going to have for dinner.

            France? I love their cheeses and the smellier the better. But those strong smells should be limited to the cheeses, IMO.

            Maui? Used to be nice till it got overrun. Even the hippies are getting driven out of Paia! And road maintenance there? After the first few miles King’s Highway looks like it hasn’t been repaired for 100 years.

            I see your point though if you drive the interstate. When I don’t have time to take the back roads I fly instead.

    • Aaron — good luck out there! Even if you come home bronze- and gold-less, Glacier National Park is fantastic. You are much more likely to see a grizzly bear (or a black bear) in Glacier than you are in Yellowstone. Keep eyes peeled for them in the valleys while driving on the Going to the Sun Road.

  91. TTOTC page 146, The guy with the axe and the tree stumps. It’s the only picture in the book, that does’nt tie into the text somewhere. Why? Do you know what the job title is of the guy with the axe? He’s a faller.

    • Either that, or a Limber Jack – OOPS darned typo – meant lUmber Jack – 🙂
      JDA

    • He’s saying knot as in not or tie the trees together. A knot is a rope is a knot in a tree or airplane knots speed heading.

    • James- heres how I see it.
      trees cut down.
      bird in nest.
      humans cut trees to build homes.
      birds build homes from sticks, same thing on a different scale.
      so this drawing DOES tie in with the text….the poem’s home of Brown.
      the trees cut by the axeman are not shown for a reason.
      log cabin.
      at night.

      I think.

  92. Ok, I’m thinking on the word “queer”.
    And, googling.
    “Queer Street”
    Idea #1 (British term for financial problems)
    Maybe someone is spending too much money and is close to bankruptcy.
    Mr. Fenn has warned before about physically being safe, maybe he is warning about being financially sensible.
    Idea #2 (Old Boxing Term)
    Someone has been hit so hard, but are dazed and still standing.
    Maybe someone looked for their solve, BOTG, it was not there and they are still dazed from the shock….
    Are we waiting to hear the thump as they hit the mat?

    Clearly Clueless

  93. Zap –

    I was forwarded hundreds of emails I never received and so I am reading old post including:

    Butch: any 3-headed alien will tell you it’s the ultimate answer to life, the universe, and everything.

    Question to you Zap. driving up to MT have to stopped at the Greater Green River Intergalactic Spaceport?

    Lugnutz

  94. Hi all;

    Just got an email from Bob Miller. He wanted me to let you all know that he is still in the search, he has just decided to become a “Lurker” for a while. He may not be posting, but he is doing a lot of reading, and he and his brother have had BotG lately, and is still active in the chase. Good Luck Bob – JDA

    • Good luck Bob! Anyone who has met Thor Heyerdahl and helped rescue him is OK in my book!

  95. Thanks for the info JDA,

    Always good to hear about the whereabouts of fellow seekers. Bob Miller has always been a positive contributor, and we all deserve a break from this insanity! 🙂

    Best regards,

    –Fennatical

  96. JDA
    I heard you and I listened good.
    I will not make an effort to send you my solve.

    Clearly Clueless

      • Charlie
        LOL
        I’m raising my
        Dr. Pepper.
        Yes!
        Dilly Dilly!

        Clearly Clueless

      • JDA
        What happens if it is the correct solve?
        Will you regret it, just a little?

        Clearly Clueless

      • Just joking but – How could it be the correct solve, unless you were looking over my shoulder when I was reading mine? 🙂 – Yes, if it turns out to be the correct solve I guess I would have a bit of regret – JDA

        • JDA,
          Now you actually sound like a real person.
          I found it a bit odd, that someone in this group offered you a free peek at their solve and you basically said “no, thank you”.

          I now understand your pride in your solve and wish you well.

        • Anyone would have some regret..but look at the joy we are having with family grand kids learning something that is not being taught..even when we dont find tc look what we have found…

  97. OS2,
    Well, now I’m conflicted! My own personal rules require me to use only info presented by FF himself and not background info unless it geography. But your post leaves me floundering!

    You said, “I believe Catcher in the Rye ended with Holden watching his sister ride a horse in a circle as he gave up his dream to run away to Colorado . (Its been a long time, dont quote me.) However, subtle symbolism is important.”

    Well, that is just great- lol Now I will have to go read Catcher in the Rye. Because, I think the poem is saying that the clues are discribed in a circle formation. Yes, yes! I know! The poem is straight forward. But, that doesn’t mean the clues are in a straight line. If the clues are in a circle, then that would tie into Catcher in the Rye, but that breaks my rules. Its all so confusing.

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