Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Fifty Nine

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Thanks…

 

dal…

596 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Fifty Nine

  1. So Im curious what others think of the following:

    Your on a solve in Colorado, and after you brush up on some local history of the area of your, you suddenly solve parts of the poem you never really considered to be clues and the final clue being the first stanza leads you to an area called _____wood, and a “marker” that looks like wood but is permanent. On this blaze there appears to be a coordinate for just north of Santa Fe in where people are known to have searched…

    Also of note FF did not make this blaze.

    And for what it’s worth there is something contiguous from the first clue that connects the clues together, and is the only possible way you arrive at the marker.

    Does anyone think it’s stupid that I’m there now…

    • You’re on to some great thoughts and solving skills with this !!! Just keep in mind that Forest mentions it’s not near a man made trail…. and he mentioned in an interview one time that a person could ride a bike to the chest ….. my thoughts are that he knows one could ride a bike to the chest because he rode a bike at one time to where the chest is at…. Remember that Forest used to ride his bike appropriately 20 miles to his Firehole bathing spot…. my thoughts are that he found his special secret place when he was a youngster and possibly even rode his bike to the spot at one time …..

      • Do you know where Forrest said one could ride a bike to the chest. Or is it to boots on the ground. He once said, What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the “water high” when I am through with it? g

    • im in Colorado and its on fire un real the blaze 164 homes lost let alone the wilderness a shooting star found a home here. moms, blazing dreams right now
      looking around bot the wood— is a mystery id say follow your dreams and have fun doing it I Am. goo night all tomorrow Im searching around the grounds it may be close by or not only one knows, that 33, i Think, a few more may be wise to it as well im out stay safe all with lilys above me an adobies around me how could i go wrong no matter its to much fun i got to pinch myself just to make sure its me. night.

      • but wow i got that wrong nope dont have a clue yet that gramer needs work

      • oh well one never goes wrong spending time with love ones its a bit more difficult searching but fun just the same walk the plank sort of spooky but had to glance where i put in you cant see out so that’s wrong but still may merit a further search i m not sure about those sences i should experience together had a good time thats what its all about ty may never fly again but its fun to look at i can imagine, Fenn at the helm as he was in his youth

    • Humble Pi,
      “In there” and “In the wood” has been an idea of many for a connection of “where”
      I’m more curious about ‘ something contiguous from the first clue that connects the clues together’
      Can you explain how you see the clues working in that manner?

      Is the pattern of the clues ‘contiguous’ as in, working together?
      or simply neighboring each other?

      I’m not sure I go with the idea of one way in and out travel/hiking. That almost forces a searcher to go only one way… making some of the clues, skippable? … find WWWH and later to ‘guess correctly’ at HLnWH and discover the blaze, line of thinking… simply because a one way in and out thought is easily a process of eliminations.
      Kinda like looking in all the draws in your home knowing that you’re looking for is in a draw… not on an end table, or in a closet, yet you know whatever you’re looking for is in [ lets say the kitchen ] because wwh would be that room… and all the draws are contiguous in nature.

      So I’m curious to how you see ‘contiguous’

      • Seeker;

        You pose an interesting idea. Forrest says that the nine clues are contiguous – meaning sharing a common border. You are proposing that contiguous could mean sharing a common thought – or something like that.

        I have pondered this and have a thought or two.

        Stanza #1 includes the line “And hint of riches new and old.”
        To me, this line could represent the “Opposites” in life – Rich and poor – Abundant and deprived – Life and death – Good and evil – and the list can go on forever. For almost every condition, there is the opposite condition. Some call this the duality of life.

        Later in the poem we have “Just heavy loads and water high.” Again, we have two “things” that are coupled together. Does
        “Heavy Loads” represent one condition, and “Water High” represent the opposite condition? Dry (Heavy loads) and wet (Water high)?

        This is followed by “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze…”
        Could this be an indicator that Indulgence is to be found “In the middle” between a Dry and a Wet location? Didn’t Forrest name one chapter in the book – “Me in the middle” ? Didn’t he talk about Hell’s Half Acre being between (in the middle) between Shoshone and Casper Wyoming? HUMMMMM??

        Something to think about. Darn, my head is beginning to hurt – JDA

        • @ Seeker & JDA =

          Just chiming in on contiguous. Like so many words FF has used, there are multiple meanings, and 2 of the listed definitions are seemingly at odds with one another:

          1) touching; in contact.

          2) in close proximity without actually touching; near

          So which is it, and how so?

          All of the real-world physical clues being described by FF are touching or just close/near to one another?

          All of the clues in the poem itself are touching or just close to one another?

          Is it some combination of both definitions 1 & 2?

          I’ll add a third definition of contiguous because I know Seeker likes this theme:

          3) adjacent in time

          Just food for thought.

          Happy 4th of July everyone!

          • Bow…This is a good point to look at closely. It would be easy to form an idea or concept using the word “contiguous” that may steer someone in the wrong direction. It seems to make sense that looking at the “big picture” concept brings “contiguous” into a more clear definition…and couple that with fenn’s comment of “follow” the clues in order. In this sense…I believe this forms a path or route to follow while proceeding from clue to clue. This makes “contiguous” true using either of the definitions versus only one definition.

          • Bowmarc,

            Yep, I like the idea of time… it just seems logical with ‘down the road’ ~ most of the clues existed when he was a kid [which clue mean; certain instructional, directional clues didn’t, but physical one did] and definitely the use of imagination… for us, today, and future generation that fenn is hoping to influence. etc.

            Regardless of our personal favorite idea… the must be a coupling, a marriage, a binding, if you will [ in thought ] with all the clues.

            I’ll us a SB for an example; the spice draw… many spices are within a location [ the draw ] but only the correct ones must be used I the correct order [ added together ] to produce the correct out come [ lets call it a lemon cake ] I’m pretty sure we don’t want to add paprika into the mix or leave out the lemon. OR add before or after. YET, when the all are combined, coupled, married to, just right .. we now may know what color the bear was. Or something like that..lol

            So not only in the correct order, but the correct ‘connection / connecting’ idea… if time puts in in the correct connection… ok.
            The tink about “time” is.. its all bout imagination. and maybe why when on site we don’t see what is in front of us. Example; WWH could be “touching” a physical place place today that is no longer there ‘to see’ But the reference of WWH is… and the same for all the clues, with ‘time’ in mind.
            It could be all the clues actually do touch/neighbor/ are married to each other in a small location, and or both in time and now as well.
            So. “which is it?” might not be the correct question… maybe the question should be; can it be both at the same ‘time’?… which bring in your third option.

            “it’s a matter of thinking, not a matter of trying”
            “try and simplify the clues” and not so much think they are simple or easy.
            “…knowledge of geography might help”
            “…hints in the book… if you can recognize them..” not make them up
            Plain English, combined with, Most people don’t know what a word mean that we use every day,[wordsmith’s Q&A] line of thinking. Tells me the “contiguous” [ stated after “consecutive order”] is a major food for thought ‘suggestion.’

            You said ~All of the real-world physical clues being described by FF are touching or just close/near to one another?
            I’m gonna add… needed [ in thought ] to be “connected / coupled as in married to.” by something and for some reason. And that could be Time as well as Physical..
            NF,BTFTW… ?? … Once upon a while?

            You used the word theme…ok, I Iike the idea of a subject or topic, the root of the matter. For me two things come to mind… “down the road” and “the big picture” [ and seeing it the way fenn sees it ] affect… which does make for a nice theme, I guess.

          • IMO,
            The following theory of mashing key words is an ideal possibility. My only search location I could come up with that is logical to me…would be in The Valles Caldera. Blend a word or two from the above lines in one or more of the key words = location. It’s a matter of closing in on the precise location once a search area has been determined, IMO.

        • JDA that area is a bit dry better take water if your thinking of treading those lands but no place for the meek fits down the canyon from there is a american duck i have a pic of

    • Humble Pi,
      At least you’re in the right state!
      IMO of course. ..good luck, I hope you find it.

      • the clues tell a story, and from what I can tell, explain why go out in the middle of nowhere.

        • Now I must proceed with haste as others are catching on to my solve IMO. Sorry,cannot contribute to cinversation or I may give too much away.Just recognised that our solve was vomplete in January but school and other stupid things were in the way of scheduling our botg.

      • For the record they are also on a contiguous path, and generally speaking contiguous within the poem, though the last clue feeds back into the opening and address those lingering questions;

        Who has gone? Alone in where? What secrets? and most importantly the hint left behind for the final location. which was a six hour drive.

        I arrived in CO with boots on the ground having a solid solve with a great HoB and several great prospects for creeks though one definitely ends at HLAWH.

        The only reason I got any farther was because of a shirt in a gift shop that said “CO is calling and I must go”

        I was a very strong KISS solution guy but those commentary verses where many of us dismissed as lacking clues suddenly became clues.

        Without knowing the entirety of the first clue, you could not take a shortcut and miss a clue and make it to the end.

  2. CC: on the prior O&E, you wrote: “JDA, Now you actually sound like a real person. I found it a bit odd, that someone in this group offered you a free peek at their solve and you basically said “no, thank you.”

    While I can’t speak for JDA’s motivation, I think his policy is a very wise one from a liability standpoint. If someone else’s solution has elements that are remotely close to hitting the mark, I would want 100% plausible deniability that I had ever seen it, so that no one could claim that my own correct solution had in any way been derived from it. This is especially true of the many “kitchen sink, spaghetti-on-the-wall” solutions I see posted on the blogs: they have so many elements to them that they almost seem deliberately designed to hit on at least one aspect of the correct solution — as if the only goal is to eventually litigate the point.

    • Zap and others – I concur. I have also been pretty coy when it comes to sharing what I have “discovered” for very similar reasons. I often get a chuckle out of some of the things that I have read concerning “solves”. And it is not because I think I am a better solver, but because some folks do not understand that they have let the “cat out of the bag”. I just shake my head and wonder.

      “Two can keep a secret if one of them is dead.”

      For those that have shared and have dropped out, it is noble of them to share some of the information they have gleaned. I stand on the shoulders of those that have gone before me, as do we all, and I am grateful for what they have shared. But for those still actively searching, it is my opinion that it is foolish to tip your hand.

    • Hmmmm….
      What happened to JDA’s response?
      I was wanting to reread the responses and reply.
      LOL, maybe I was imagining something.
      Definitely feeling like
      Clearly Clueless.

      • No problem…
        I just got to Dal’s post underneath and now know what happened.
        CC

  3. Hi Flutterby: at the end of the prior incarnation of OnE, you wrote: “Now I will have to go read Catcher in the Rye.” You definitely should. Even a casual reading of the first half-dozen chapters by a well-versed Fenn-atic would be enough to prove that Forrest read that book and deliberately pays homage to it in his memoirs and Scrapbooks.

    • zaphod,
      I’m sure FF has read it and does pay homage to it (Catcher in the Rye). My problem is that it breaks my own self-imposed rule which is not to use special knowledge. Just the poem, the map, FF’s comments, and hints in the book with a deep understanding of geography. Its so stressful. To read it or not to read it? I don’t want to get side-tracked, as we all see that its easy for me to do. Sigh. . . I just want to stick with my current solve and stay focused, but maybe there is something good in the book. Maybe I will just go to sleep and decide tomorrow.

      • Are things learned from reading ttotc book specialized knowledge?

          • Yes, reading Catcher in the Rye or Journal of a Trapper, imparts specialized knowledge.

            More importantly it will lead you to draw conclusions and see connections where none exist.

            Flutter – stick to your rule

          • Lugnutz, Flutterby mentioned that (s)he thinks Robert Redford was a hint cause of f’s comment in the book being an aberration. With the possibility of Robert Redford or his book being a hint, it’s value doesn’t necessitate reading the book. It could be just about a map.

          • Fundamental –

            Sure the word Redford or the words Red and Ford could be related to a clue.

            I would say that the VAST majority of time these external hints lead to confirmation bias and/or wild goose chases.

            If there is one thing that remains consistent about Forrest it is that hes is fallible.

            And Ken, anyone can read anything they care to and it’s all helpful. But, no one will ever read enough or fish enough to become Forrest Fenn.

            Lugnutz

          • Lugnutz…Though I am not an authority on Fenn and am still learning what is important…I am my own person and would never want to be another. It is interesting to learn what makes folks tick….and Fenn is just another person….he just happens to have hid something I want.

        • fundamental…why would Fenn tell us to read the poem(even memorize), read TTOTC and look for hints if the info was not necessary? Or, off limits because of being “specialized” ? This makes zero sense to me. I believe everything mentioned in TTOTC is up for grabs…and possibly pertinent. It is also noteworthy that Fenn mentions that the literature inspired him to write his own autobiography and that the one story seemed to be written about him…just different names etc. None of this will “lead” anyone to the treasure…but might help understand the man who hid it.

          • Right, it all falls down to thinking the right thoughts… I’ll add, hint in the book… If you can recognize them.

            IF so.. can a type of navgation be involved. Thumb over Philly.
            GE or a good map… All seem to be a bird’s eye “view”… Is this idea the same as field work being needed?

          • Yep, ken…it makes zero sense to me too.

            As if searchers that haven’t tried looking into leads from the book have never been down a rabbit hole, had confirmation bias creep up or can demonstrate more progress made.

          • fun…My latest track, or line of thought focuses just on the poem and the book…nothing too deep or complicated.
            Seeker…I believe it is a type of navigation…directions on a good map…with a “nailed” down starting point. There have been many references to the “thumb”…thumb over Philly, thumbs up before take-off(oxygen), his collection of palettes with the thumb-hole to mention a few…and Sloane’s rule of thumb. There are others. Also dumb line…which may be a hint to rhumb line. These to me do not seem to relate to a type of “bird’s eye viewing”…but more of an exact or direct indication of a compass direction on a map.

          • TTOTC: “Life for Eric was just a rule of thumb anyway and he was philosophical about it all.”

            “After trying to thumb a ride for a few minutes I saw an A&M pickup truck make a turn and come my way.”

            “The last thing the crew chief did after he pulled the chocks for taxi was to cup his nose with one hand and give me a thumbs-up with the other.”

            “Then, and for no reason at all, I closed my fist, stuck my thumb out, and moved it close to my face, and inch from my left eye.”

            “My God!!!! I had completely covered up Philadelphia. I had covered up millions of people with my thumb.”

            “The down side though, was that I had covered a few million people with my thumb and it took me to another dimension in my mind, a place I would not visit again until the grave marker entered into my life.”

            “That’s why all of Philadelphia was reduced to a thumbnail, to show me that each one is as important as the all, myself no less than any of them, and no more.”

            SB171: “My library contains a few hundred books on archaeology because that’s my hobby, and I’ve read or thumbed through all of them more than once.”

          • good list Zap…I’m too stubborn to keep listing stuff for those who don’t…once in a while ok.
            Sandy…Rebel was great. Catcher…never appreciated until later in life. Still…not so much. It rode around in my trunk in HS.

          • …Fenn mentions… that the one story seemed to be written about him…just different names etc. None of this will “lead” anyone to the treasure…but might help understand the man who hid it.”

            Maybe he felt the book he wrote (TToTC) would speak to someone the same way Catcher spoke to him. The stories in TToTC do provide insight into how Fenn thinks, but its real purpose might have been to see if others think the same way. He kind of hinted at that in the latest article, where he tells the journalist “I’m of a different kind…”. It must be lonely to have only yourself to share your thoughts with. (IMO).

          • nmc…yeah, I’ve traveled that route in my head more than once, and it seems to fit to a certain extent. I’ve realigned that thinking and use those thoughts in a more “generalized” approach. Nowadays, I believe that the books and authors and characters mentioned are more of a “stereotype” line of info and not meant to delve too deep. There are hundreds of classic stories that have similar styles and characters…these just seem to be written by authors steeped in “character”. Fenn seems to gravitate towards those types…

    • Flutterby….Catcher In The Rye is standard college reading. I think I had to read it in high school AND college. I definitely was not a fan of the book until I saw the movie “Rebel In The Rye”. It opened my eyes to the author and his process. IMO Catcher is not specialized knowledge.

      • How much of a Fennatic are you? Do the following quotes from Catcher resonate with you?

        1. “He wrote this terrific book of short stories, The Secret Goldfish, in case you never heard of him. The best one in it was ‘The Secret Goldfish.’”

        2. “For instance, one Sunday when some other guys and I were over there for hot chocolate, he showed us this old beat-up Navajo blanket that he and Mrs. Spencer’d bought off some Indian in Yellowstone Park.”

        3. “Life is a game, boy. Life is a game that one plays according to the rules.”

        4. “I was sixteen then, and I’m seventeen now, and sometimes I act like I’m about thirteen. It’s really ironical, because I’m six foot two and a half and I have gray hair. I really do. The one side of my head – the right side – is full of millions of gray hairs.”

        5. “I passed English all right,” I said, “because I had all that Beowulf and Lord Randal My Son stuff when I was at the Whooton School.”

        6. “One of the biggest reasons I left Elkton Hills was because I was surrounded by phonies. That’s all. They were coming in the go**am window.”

        7. “The first football game of the year, he came up to school in this big go**am Cadillac…”

        8. “The reason you’re sore at Stradlater is because he said that stuff about brushing your teeth once in a while.”

        9. “I’ll be up the creek if I don’t get the go**am thing in by Monday”

        10. “‘Just don’t do it too good, is all,’ he said. ‘That sonuvab**** Hartzell thinks you’re a hot-shot in English, and he knows you’re my roommate. So I mean don’t stick all the commas and stuff in the right place. That’s something else that gives me a royal pain. I mean if you’re good at writing compositions and somebody starts talking about commas. Stradlater was always doing that. He wanted you to think that the only reason he was lousy at writing compositions was because he stuck all the commas in the wrong place.”

        11. “It was supposed to be a comedy, with Cary Grant in it, and all that crap.”

        12. : “I said, ‘Do you feel like playing a little Canasta?’ He was a Canasta fiend.”

        13. “I kept giving it a boot with this sheep-lined slipper I had on.”

        14. “It was too late to call up for a cab or anything, so I walked the whole way to the station. It wasn’t too far, but it was cold as hell, and the snow made it hard for walking, and my Gladstones kept banging hell out of my legs.”

        15. “You know those ducks in the lagoon right near Central Park South? That little lake? By any chance, do you happen to know where they go, the ducks, when it gets all frozen over?”

        16. “I and my girlfriends saw Peter Lorre last night”

        And:

        “The game with Saxon Hall was supposed to be a very big deal around Pencey.”

        “I was the go**m manager of the fencing team. Very big deal.”

        “Everything was a very big deal.”

        “It was supposed to be a big deal”

        “He started off with about fifty corny jokes, just to show us what a regular guy he was. Very big deal.”

        “I’ve asked you about fifty … I’ve asked you fifty times.”

        “but he was about fifty times as intelligent”

        “Ackley said, for about the fiftieth time.”

        “her mouth sort of went in about fifty directions”

        Those are just from the first 11 chapters of the book…

        • Zap –

          What’s with all the go*am quotes?

          Do you Forrest quotes where he says go**m?

          Lugnutz, irritated

        • And all the “it killed me”s…! (I appreciate the **s, BTW. Thanks, Zap.)

          1. For those who aren’t familiar with Salinger, A Perfect Day for Bananafish was “the best” story in Salinger’s “Nine Stories,” (9!) which was initially called A Perfect Day for Bananafish–about a war vet trying to survive in a land of phonies.

          Salinger became a Buddhist in his later life (as far as I know, ff is not a Buddhist). Buddhists describe 9 sublime virtues. In each of the Nine (9!) Stories, he describes a possible answer to the question, how can we live in an ingenuine world? His first answer, from Bananafish, was we can’t. The fifth answer (For Esme, With Love and Squalor was my favorite, with the answer right in the title. (At least, that’s what I thought back in college, when I presented a paper on him!) It’s worth a read, even apart from the chase. Salinger had a lot of “issues,” so none of the Nine Stories contain an effective answer to his question. He spent most of his remaining years writing 8-10 hours a day in a small, concrete bunker he built in his backyard.

          It seems to me that Fenn, in his descriptions of some characters in TTOTC, is describing Holden’s phonies/phone-ies. IMO.

        • Lugnutz: that’s ALL you had to say about my Salinger post?! That you were irritated by me redacting Salinger’s language so that the post would get through the language filters?

          • No sir.

            I’m irritated that you are using the go**m word.

            Irritated because F does not. So I don’t see why you include those.

            And I asked if you have a quote from F illustrating his use of such a word.

          • Lug: that word has absolutely nothing to do with the reasons I included those quotes from Catcher. But what am I supposed to do if a point I’m trying to make requires quoting a sentence — in context — that happens to include that word? Do you have any idea how often Salinger uses it? It’s almost unavoidable! I did the best I could — I self-bleeped it because it wasn’t germane to my point. So don’t get mad at me if (in spite of my efforts) it *still* upsets you; get mad at him.

            Every one of my examples has clear connectivity to Forrest (whether it’s relevant or not). If you don’t see it, look again (and put blinders on for the offending word). Geez, I never would have expected you to have such virgin eyes; you’ll hear far worse walking for 30 seconds in the Windy City.

      • Um…Hear me all and listen good = Catcher in the Rye could be Catch Her in the Eye. It is for me.

        H. L. Mencken’s actual quote = If, after I depart this vale, you ever remember me and have thought to please my ghost, forgive some sinner and wink your eye at some homely girl.

      • Hi Sandy: yep, “umb” comes up a lot in TTOTC: a lot of “dumb”s and thumbs, plus: number, plumbing, umbilical, humbled, humbling, pre-Columbian, Columbia (spelled wrong), mumble, and a picture of a lumberjack. I’ve only typed in the first 10 chapters of TFTW, so that’s the only portion I can search digitally, but it has tumbled, encumbered, numbered and number.

  4. I am in the camp that the clues must be SOLVED in order, not just followed in order. FF said , paraphrased, the number one reason for the chest not being found is searchers failure to get the first clue correct. Being at clue #5 and then linking something back to clue #1 doesn’t seem plausible.

    • Hi Toughshed

      I totally agree with that!!!!

      Begin at the beginning, then find the next clue. If you start in the middle, you loose all the visuals of beginning at the beginning. (Redneck, wife, kids).

      I have done this, and it is heartbreaking. Hiking all over is great fun, but not finding the TC is no fun.

      Heading out again next week, and I will totally begin at the first clue. I hope I have it identified correctly.

      Franklin

      • Good Luck – If you don’t find it – Have Fun anyway and TRY and STAY SAFE – JDA

    • Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt? ~Ben Raylor
      Thanks for the question Ben.
      If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck.f

      • Seeker,
        I’m confused. Isn’t there another quote that says you cannot reverse engineer ? Maybe not. I’m not certain.

        • Not that I’m aware of, flutterby.

          thoughshed stated; Being at clue #5 and then linking something back to clue #1 doesn’t seem plausible.

          Fenn seems to disagree.. However, I’m taking “IF you are sure…” and other comments such as; There’s no other way to my knowledge… and direct path with certainty of the location beforehand… and need to nail down the first clue or stay home..etc. to mean; it would be nearly impossible to get to [and know of] the 3 or 4 or 5 or any later clues without the prior clues. [ you can’t get to clue 6 without 5 or 5 without 4…

          The same idea with; you won’t ‘know’ wwh is correct until the trove is found.
          lol once it’s found, you could- if you like to – reverse engineer back to wwwh just to make sure it’s the correct once. It’s a bit of an oxymoron, really. At least this moron sees it that way.

          I think what most forget.. these are made up clues. they are to reference something fenn wants us to figure out. Not unlike attempting to find the blaze [ the poem’s blaze ] before figuring out all prior clues, out of the billions of blazes in the RM’s. That is an impossible task.. like trying to pick out a certain star in the sky… only using hl n wh to do so…. because {imo} you can not “know” hl n wh without “all” the prior clues.

          I’d even guess, that there are may types and different blazes all around the trove’s location/area/spot.. but only one will lead to trove, by knowing all of ‘fenn’s references.’
          The same concept is [more than likely] with each clue… so you need the correct first clue, then the next to get to the next etc. or you will never find any other clues. And we have been told that. ‘clues decipher and followed in order’
          And I think toughshed [ if I read the post correctly ] is implying… we need to have every clue ‘solved the way fenn intended them’ regardless if capable of reverse engineering… we “need” the prior clues to move forwards, or the cake will fall flat.

          My question is, do we need to use the clues in some manner and not just follow [ stomping point to point ]

      • Seeker,Ken,JDA

        To answer you from previous thread before it was closed, I would lay good money that you guys are way way more educated than me so I do not classify you as dummies, far from it, it fact that has been you guys downfall, you havnt kept it simple as advised by Mr Fenn………Ken, if you would be willing to sign an NDA then I’m not to proud to let you buy my air ticket ans accommodation, I’m poor in wealth but rich in knowledge, I would of course reward you generously when I claim through TC, hell why don’t you tag along? I’m not sure if it’s getting lost in translation but I’m not teasing anyone I promise and if it comes across like that then I apologize, buy it is true isn’t it? If anyone could solve the poem/chase then it would of been over years ago?

        • Butch,

          When are you supposed to hear back from the search team? I sure don’t want to miss their report!!

          Personally, I think you’re all barking up the wrong tree… but what do I know? Lol

          IMO, etc….

          TimM

      • Seeker,
        That quote cracks me up.
        It is one of the ATF
        Fennerisms that tells me to have faith in my solve.
        Clearly Clueless

        • I don’t like to use the term ~ blatantly obvious [when chatting about ATFs~ but in this case it seems to be… if we just think about it.
          Or as you said; fennerism. Completely factual with no conjecture or philosophical hidden meanings needed.

  5. I’ve had the bones of my current solve since September and only just this morning, had one of those half awake revelations that has the potential to refine it even further. I love when those happen.

    TBH, I’m debating on whether to share it or not as it relates to one of the later lines and isn’t tied to my specific location (it’s more of a broader possibility that can be applied everywhere).

  6. BigSkip here:

    JDA & Seeker:
    Back in the Chase after a medical layoff. Maybe you can help: DKM said on July 3 (above) that ff “mentioned in an interview one time that a person could ride a bicycle to the chest”.
    Is this factual? Do you recall ff saying such a thing?
    Thanks for your help…..

    • Hi BigSkip: I don’t know that we can confidently say from the “Forrest Gets Mail” response that it is possible to ride a bicycle all the way to the treasure chest’s location:

      “What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the “water high” when I am through with it?”

      “Out there” could just be the general area of the clues. And note that he didn’t suggest parking/dumping the bike next to the blaze — he stopped short at “water high.” So maybe it’s not possible to ride it all the way to the blaze. (That, or water high and the blaze are so close to one another that there’s no practical difference.)

      All in all, I don’t think it’s wise to draw conclusions about the cyclability of the clues based on this one possibly sarcastic sentence.

      • zaphod73491 & JDA
        thanks for your thoughts.
        I have dropped any idea of cycling to the “special spot”

      • “What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the “water high” when I am through with it?” This is a question. It does not give the answer. So, maybe there is no way to ride a bike “out there” (where ever that is) or maybe it is possible. Only FF knows. Its a cryptic answer that does not shed any light IMO

    • I agree that DKM did not correctly quote FF with regards to his bicycle statement. IMO, FF’s response was a non-answer and a poke at all the chatter about him not just walking to the spot twice in one afternoon to hide the chest.

      I can’t get the image of the insurance commercial where there is a huge procession of different insurable vehicles linked together every time this bicycle quip is mentioned.

      RV towing a 4WD truck towing a horse trailer with 2 horses inside towing an ATV & Dirt Bike (for when the trail is too narrow for the 4-wheeler) on a trailer towing a boat towing a trailer loaded with fuel and rations to “power” all the aforementioned mechanical and living means of transportation towing another trailer loaded with hip waders, flotation devices, climbing gear, etc. towing a little red wagon laden with Indulgence propped up on a plush red velvet pillow towing a bicycle. The airplane and helicopter were already rented. 🙂

      IMO

      • Great imagery.
        I’m sure there is a cooler of cold Dr Peppers in the back also.

      • It’s not advisable to bring/operate a vehicle in some places.
        Don’t ask me how eye know. IMO.

  7. Annette Underwood on July 2, 2018 at 9:31 am said:

    He’s saying knot as in not or tie the trees together. A knot is a rope is a knot in a tree or airplane knots speed heading.

    Annette,

    Any one that works with wood knows that knots are old dead limbs enveloped in the trunk or larger limbs of a tree.

    Just sharing in case you were unaware.

  8. Don’t use this page to discuss legal issues, the blaze, looking in Colorado or any other of dozens of topics that have their own discussion pages. This page is only for topics that have no dedicated discussion page. Look at the list of discussion pages by clicking on “Searcher’s Discussions” in the right column, above..

  9. 4 more days and I will be putting my botg for one last search. I wasn’t planning on going again this season, but I received a text from my Mom (I think she’s hooked), and she wanted to make a trip to my area with me. I have revised my solve since my last botg and I think I finally have come full circle in understanding enough of the poem and the riddle to have a solid solve. It’s funny how much we learn with each trip we take. Many thanks to those who have shared thoughts, encouraged questions, and played devils advocate. I learn the most by those who challenge my ways of thinking. I hope you all enjoy the rest of the hunting season.

    May we remember to never cease from our explorations, even if they are just outside of our own front doors, or in the pages of a book that time has already written.

  10. Seeking some sage thoughts.

    I have a ‘correct’ solve…the only thing nagging me is I measure a path of a little over 7 miles one-way from where one could reasonably park a car. Most of that distance is on a legit trail that permits horse use.

    All other clues/ATFs aligning…is this just too far?

    Seems there is some opinion that allows that f may have packed in by horse. Indeed, looking at first stanza a horse could be at least one of the ‘treasures’…as in a cherished pet, etc,…I do doubt that f treasures gold. Further, ‘bold’ could align with how a cowboy rides boldly into town….on a horse.

    So, am I grasping at straws to consider f may have ridden in and that the two trips he mentions (believe he has used ‘car’ and ‘vehicle’ in describing) were between his horse and the hidey space (far, far less than 7 miles)…could a horse have been his ‘car’ or ‘vehicle’?

    Thoughts?

    • LingeringDoubt: as you’ve surmised, 7 miles one-way is definitely way too far on foot. The trouble with introducing a horse into the equation is that there is then no reason to make two trips from his car. And he has definitely said two trips from his *car*: “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.f”

      • good thoughts…yeah, the only way I get to two trips with a horse is that he first toted the chest from horse to wherever, then returned to horse to tote the contents to the chest…2 trips….instead of lugging all 42lbs at once.

        • LingeringDoubt, Zap and I have gone in circles with this. Yes, the 7 mile walk could be what you need to do. It’s very reasonable that the trips were done on different days, also, if you are walking long distances, you are walking ‘too far”, which is what the poem tells us to do. There is no right or wrong, you just need to decide on your own, and what you have interpreted. As far as the horse, I once thought it possible, but to think of the attention it would draw, along with needing to transport to wwwh is, it’s most likely not in the cards.
          The ATF’s and his comments will back up either way you decide, so whatever you believe you got from the poem, that’s what you go with. Zap is wrong in saying, “7 miles one-way is definitely way too far on foot.” That’s what he believes and not what is possible. He should say ‘I believe 7 miles one-way is way to far on foot’. I also would believe this, but does not make it correct. You are backed up either way you go, so don’t take our words for it….Good Luck…

        • Really, Charlie, you do need to keep up with the latest Forrest quotes. 20 miles is not an option:

          “A 79 or 80 year old man went to that hiding place twice in one afternoon,’ he tells DailyMail.com “There’s no point climbing up to the top of the mountain or hiking 20 miles looking for the treasure.”

          If you want to ignore Forrest’s advice, that’s your business, but I don’t think it’s fair to mislead others.

          • Ahhh, here we go again.
            That’s Dailey Mail, not an f quote. Why don’t you put what else they said? YOU, are making it sound like f quoted the whole thing instead of the Dailey Mail saying what they heard. I once heard f in an interview say the blaze would lead a chaser off. Can we say that the blaze is meant to lead a searcher off?

            I never said to hike 20 miles to look for the treasure.

            I never said it was on top of a mountain.

            Really Zap, you want to be one dimensional in your interpretations, that’s up to you, but don’t try to throw others off the track by implying that something is true when actually, it’s just what you think.

            They also said “he’s quick to point out that he’s never said it’s buried: instead he emphasizes that it’s hidden”. But yet, he has said, “well, it’s buried more than eight and a half miles north of Santa Fe in the Rocky Mountains but below the Canadian border.”

            This has also been said, It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. And,
            the clues should be followed in order Curtis, there is no other way to my knowlege.
            So if we are to follow the clues in each trip, doesn’t sound like it can be done in one day. Since he won’t go down, up, back down again.
            He’s said there are no shortcuts, so must follow 1-9.
            If you are going to throw comments out there Zap, maybe you should refrain from just picking and choosing so it sounds like your write, most likely, you’re not.

            Was he able to “skip” some of the steps because of his familiarity of the area? you know the answer, but I’m sure you’ll come up with something to let him follow all clues the first trip and then take shortcuts the second. Even though he said NO. Just like you come up with the rational of the same day trips when he won’t go down, up, down again, but, not take a shortcut.

            I took two trips from my car and it was done in one…..One what? We don’t know if he means ONE TRIP, or one afternoon. All we know is that the second trip was completed in the afternoon. Everything else YOU come up with is YOUR interpretation.
            Quit throwing people off by implying your thoughts are the facts…..

          • So Charlie, it sounds like your odyssey of a solution requires a failure of journalistic integrity at the Daily Mail, since they put the statement in quotation marks.

            If Forrest emailed you and told you point blank that he walked less than 5 miles TOTAL to carry out his two round trips from his sedan to the treasure chest’s hiding location, you would find some way to twist it to allow for a dozen or more miles:

            1. “He hopped, skipped or jogged for 7 miles, but walked for 5”, or

            2. “Someone could have hacked Forrest’s email — I have no way of knowing if the message is really from him.”

            I know you like to disagree with me just on general principle, but if you took a survey of the folks who post here, I’d be surprised if 1 in 50 agreed with your walking long distances viewpoint. Not that such statistics would in any way deter you, but at least maybe you’d stop harping on me as if I’m the only idiot who thinks your long distance premise is full of holes.

          • Zap, the problem is I know that you could be right. I can read, I understand, but f is not that easy. I understand what you are saying, but, you cannot see how I can be right. Hence the ‘one dimensional” comment. The thing is, both scenarios can be proved and are legit. That’s where you fail to see. Not saying you’re failing, just the point that it’s just not that easy to figure what f is saying.
            I would hope that many don’t see it my way. I know some do, but that’s what’s so good about it. We will see some day, maybe both are wrong, IDK, but you are right, my position will not change. That position is to see the multiple sides of what f is saying, not just one side…That is where we differ. Always, good luck Zap…

          • Charlie: thank you for a balanced and fair reply. As you’ve probably figured out, I try to triage where I can, otherwise progress on the poem seems almost impossible. I believe Forrest is a bit of a trickster, but I don’t think he’s cruel or deliberately misleading. I’m sure you don’t consider Canada or Nevada in play, so you clearly exercise some triage of your own. We just differ on where we place the bar.

        • And have you ever triedti get a rental horse into a rental car?

          Has anyone?

          Well if anyone ever had it would be Forrest Fenn!

    • LingeringDoubt,
      Its just my opinion, but I believe that the words say what they mean and that we must rely upon actual dictionary definitions or word plays on those definitions. I don’t want to knock your solve that could for all I know be the right one, but. . .

      You said, “horse could be at least one of the ‘treasures’…as in a cherished pet, etc,…” With that point of view, I think anything in the universe could be one of the “treasures”. But, I think the poem tells us the answer and does not leave us guessing.

      Further, ‘bold’ could align with how a cowboy rides boldly into town….on a horse. Again; I believe the poem tells us what it means. If we have to take a stab in the dark, then “bold” could mean a bazillion different things. I think it has to be an actual known definition or a word play on that definition.

      I arrived at this conclusion after reading TTOTC. p 13 says, But, I’d have to tell it all straight because nothing is worse than facts written wrong.”

      It is that quote that leaves me to believe that the “answers I already know” that are contained in the poem, are “facts”. I don’t think a guess would work.

      Just my opinion though. Good luck!

    • Yeah, here’s a thought . . . use a dictionary to look up “horse” and “car”.

      • tighterfocus,
        I’m sure this is not where you were going with the suggestion of looking up the definition of horse and car, but nevertheless, its an interesting thing to think about.

        FF has said he was born 100 years too late. Guess what happened 100 years before FF was born? Actually a lot of things, but one thing ties in with horses and cars. “1st American built locomotive, “Tom Thumb” races a horse-drawn car from Stockton and Stokes stagecoach company from Baltimore to Ellicott Mills. Let history record that due to mechanical problems the horse won!” https://www.onthisday.com/date/1830/august

  11. I know that ff has “limited” the search areas to 4 states and the Rockies, but I have the hardest time coming up with any place that could be more “special” to ff than much of Wyoming. Admittedly, I haven’t read the entire TTOTC yet (it’s at home collecting dust) so I am probably missing some vital stories dealing with CO or NM. So much of the tidbits he has said over the years lead me to Wyoming.

    Is anyone able (and willing) to enlighten me about the special places to ff in CO? I’m not looking for handouts (only some clarification), but I just don’t see how it could be any place other than WY or MT.

    • daWiser,

      I wouldn’t discount any states. Keep in mind, people find places special for many different reasons. Sometimes, people don’t have any actual memories of a place, but its name, smell, or a sound may trigger a happy memory or remind them of someone, thus making it a “special” place. Just a whole lot of reasons places can be special. IMO, it is a fatal mistake to make any assumptions about FF or the solution to his poem.

      • I totally agree with the opinion that assumptions are a very bad idea, but you kinda have to make assumptions in order to find your solve, and then hope that it is the correct solve. You are very right about why someone may find a place special, regardless of memories. There are some interesting ideas about why CO in the CO searcher discussion, but none of them jump out at me like some of the specific stories in TTOTC (one of the useful resources according to ff…that’s paraphrased btw).

        Thanks for the insight Kk. I’d love to find some places in CO that could be good solves since I’ll be there for a week in Aug. I was trying to convince the fam to take a quick jaunt up to WY. Just need a solid solve to give me a reason to go.

        Good luck everyone. Be sage. I mean safe…and sage I guess.

        • I would add that when looking for helpful hints in ttotc I look for details that f appears to not talk about but provide enough detail to maybe figure out that he is pointing to it.

          • Hi FD, Mr. Fenn said to look for things in TTOTC that catch up in your head. I think an example is on page 13 where he gives his reasons for not getting around to writting his book. The idea that his self confidence was low because some kid he didn”t like had given him a copy of Kismet to read, sounds like complete nonsense. But then there’s Kismet peak in Wyoming.

          • Hi James, I always enjoy your posts.

            It would be interesting to know how f would answer a question of has any searcher properly identified any of the hints. I doubt he would answer that in unambiguous way. But I think many searchers have come across the actual hints in some fashion.

          • fundamental design,
            Agreed! ” would add that when looking for helpful hints in ttotc I look for details that f appears to not talk about but provide enough detail to maybe figure out that he is pointing to it.”

          • James Perotti, that is a weird moment in TTOTC, for sure. For one thing, he’s been talking about himself as an adult, and he suddenly switches to himself as a child–was he thinking about writing his autobiography at 13? And he didn’t because of the Kismet kid? It’s an abrupt switch of time.

    • daWiser,
      Its just my opinion, but I do not think FF has mentioned his special place anywhere. So the fact that he talks so much about Yellowstone suggests to me that the TC almost certainly is not there. I think the hints he gives are much more subtle than a mention of a spot.

      You really should read TTOTC. I think everyone interprets it differently so asking someone else to tell you about it is impractical. After you read it, read it again and again. That is what FF told us to do and IMO that is the only way to see the connections.

      Just my thoughts

      • Flutterby;

        Not sure Forrest tells us to read TTOTC over and over again. He says to read the poem over and over again – Here is the quote:

        Forrest has said, “Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues.” f.

        I guess if you do as he says – several times – you will have read TTOTC over and over also – JDA

    • Thanks Dal,

      Again she is being hypothetical and not being accurate as usual.

        • Reading your comment Margie (which I loved) begs the question, is Forrest really 89 years old?

          I made a comment somewhere else about close friends would more likely lower your age not increase it, but close friends would also more likely know your real age.

          • I would more prefer to see his birth certificate as a Napoleon quote comes to mind.

          • Idle Dreamer: another data point for you:

            “Mickey Goolsby, with whom I jumped the milk truck in high school, died last week. I talked about him in my TFTW book, page 40. He was my age plus a few months.”

            Mickey Goolsby’s obituary said he was born on February 1, 1930, consistent with Forrest’s statement (“few” here translating to 6 months and 3 weeks).

    • I think its incredible that your site has had 17 million views!!

      Thanks for all you do to help us Dal!! Much appreciated!!

      TimM

        • Dal,

          I understand the all time views but what about the comments? Are they total number of comments or does it only count the first one from each subscriber?

          There are a few people on here that I could imagine have half that many comments themselves… lol.

          Just kidding. Very impressive numbers!! Now I want to see a new high!!

          TimM

          • Shoot…I probably did a couple million hits in my first year on this site…not so much on the comments though. I do remember when this site was coming up on a quarter million hits…that was the big time then! Really interesting to see the same cycles and similar ideas pop up over and over. Almost like Groundhog Day….

          • TimM-
            Total number of comments posted…so that does not include the spam that doesn’t get posted or attempts to post by the banned..or attempts to post by trolls…BTW We get a few hundred comments from spammers and a few attempts to post BS from trolls every day…

          • Dal – Thanks for blocking the spammers and trolls – I wish I knew your secret to blocking them – I get a bunch every day – like most – darn! – JDA

          • Hi Dal,

            I’ve tried to post twice today an neither have shown up, I hope I’m not classified as a troll even though I’m off many Christmas card lists on here, can you tell me why they haunt been posted please? thank you.

        • Dal,

          I’m impressed with the numbers, I can’t say Margie Goldsmith didn’t help, with the numbers and getting more interest about the treasure.

          • I agree Charlie. She has done much to promote the chase and raise money for Forrest’s cancer fund…

          • I have seen Forrest give MUCH money to those with cancer. He is doing much good in the world. Including getting all of you off your couch and into the great outdoors.

          • That’s an often overlooked point of all this Margie. Thanks for reminding us. Those book sales build up his cancer fund and writing articles about the chase as Margie does brings new folks who buy books who help build the cancer fund.

            I’ll take a chance of getting a scolding from Forrest here…but on several occasions I have been made aware of how that cancer fund was used to help individuals but when I ask Forrest to talk about the cancer fund, he won’t do it. He keeps the information about numbers of persons and amount of money sent, to himself. I am absolutely certain this is not because the numbers and amounts are small, in fact I suspect they are quite large…but rather because Forrest actually has a humble spot…and he feels that specifics about the cancer fund are too personal…and he won’t talk about it…

        • Amy, Jdiggins, Spallies and ‘someone else’ {can’t remember whom at this moment} probably account for 9.9 mil of those hits.
          Well, maybe not that high, but we, um, I mean they, kicked all the other, all time, ‘yackers’ ___ in 2016

          Dang, that seems like a decade ago…. I might run out of ideas soon.

          • I doubt it….run out of ideas that is ! Didn’t you get a secret decoder ring or something? Lifetime supply of Bazooka Joe ?

          • Ha! ken,
            I’m just glad I don’t fall into the BSer category… everyone knows I’m full of it… Ideas, I mean.

            And, Nope. Had a magic eight-ball, But all it projecting is; “try again later”

          • Hi JDA -Has anyone heard how Ronnie the Scot made out? If he actually mad it over the water and got a chance to Process his solve?? Hoping all stay SAFE and SOUND…

      • Hi JDA: I count 5 (Randy Bilyeu, Eric Ashby, Jeff Murphy, Mike Peterson and Paris Wallace). First time I’ve heard 6. Hopefully Forrest’s many warnings will be better heeded this search season.

          • Ok I’m not sure. Mike Peterson headed out from West and was found in Beaver Creek drowned.

            I remember a guy fell to his death higher up by the Coffin Lakes

          • Lugnutz, exactly! The man says all kinds of stuff that’s not true; just look at TTOTC. I believe Margie’s comments, above, are just carefully reminding us of that point.

            Rather than put her down, consider maybe this is what ff told her for this article, for whatever reason.

      • Good point Oz. The latest article is consistent with her previous…I don’t know anything about hints though.

      • And ff’s ‘original plan’ quote (if the cancer “comes back”), to take a pocketful of sleeping pills and a treasure chest (with his bio) and go “out into the desert”, comes from an article Margie wrote in 2011.

        Jake

  12. I have been looking for a cave the entire time. Why and when did FF say the treasure is not in a cave? Anybody know? I can’t figure anything else manmade you would go into (that is clear enough). Any comments?

    • T-
      Forrest said or wrote about the chest not being in a cave or mine a few times..once on this blog. But rather than give that comment away I’ll have you listen to the Richard Eeds show from KVSF radio in Santa Fe…the show from May 27th, 2016…listen to all of it. There is a great deal of information in that show…but the part you are looking for is between 24-25 minutes in…
      https://santafe.com/podcasts/forrest-fenn-on-treasure-hunting-in-the-rockies

      • Drat!!
        I had a fantastic solve, just missing home of Brown. Everything else fit (around 30 characteristics). I even had a unique historical find related to the blaze and a cave… Time to start over 🙂

    • Except for the trove itself, I don’t think there is much “manmade” anything near the hidey place, except perhaps an “arrangement” of something (made by moving things).

  13. Here’s what I think are interesting anomalies about Margie’s story today:
    1-She says that it is buried…and she is in constant contact with Forrest…so does she know something? Later she makes a point of hidden not buried…?
    2-She says it is worth up to $3million again…hmmm…what does she know?
    3-I think the bottle of single malt scotch and 52 (rather than a handful) sleeping pills are interesting details.
    4-“desert mountains” is also an interesting descriptor…
    5-She writes “Fenn jokes that the treasure can be found somewhere in the Rocky Mountains north of Santa Fe, higher than 5,000 feet above sea level, not in Nevada, Idaho, Utah or Canada; and more than 300 miles west of Toledo, Ohio.” …JOKES???
    5-“One hunter got within 200 feet of the treasure”…we are back to only one hunter getting that close again?
    6-Forrest says in the story that no one has found it…so that’s our latest evidence that it is still out there.
    7-None of Forrest’s tales on the blog offer any clues…There you go Seeker..
    8-Six have died…
    9-Someone was digging for the treasure in New York?…

    As always..Margie comes up with stuff to make me think…
    https://www.forbes.com/sites/margiegoldsmith/2018/06/28/hello-world/#5471fc016159

        • Right. The way I see it, there are 9 clues in the poem, and everything else is a hint. Which makes sense to me, because everything else hints at those 9 clues, which are the map to the treasure.

          • I personally don’t read the poem anymore as nine clues, I’ve felt that if you can’t use the whole poem in your solve that you might be missing something imo

    • Yup…good points again…anomalies galore. Also the chest is now 16th century. The most interesting to me is the bottle of scotch and 52 pills….huh.

      • Hello ken. Would the bottle of scotch and 52 pills be considered a deadly cocktail?

    • The single malt scotch is unexpected. I didn’t think Forrest drank…notwithstanding his affinity for Dr. Pepper, a myriad of colored teas, milk, the juice of the olive, pickle, and jalapeño, Worcestershire sauce, and Tobasco.

      His age was erroneously stated to be 89.

      “…one hunter got within 200 feet of the treasure…” It’s not quoted as a direct Fenn statement, so it may just be paraphrasing.

      • Lol, somehow this made me imagine he has a bottle of “Double” Omega “single” malt scotch sitting on his shelf… 🙂

    • Thanks Dal,
      Romanesque vs Italian,
      Buried vs hidden,
      Gold nuggets from Alaska vs Yukon?
      Perhaps the biggest “hint” is the middle pic of Mr. Fenn, now that’s a winner.

      • uh…’an important turquoise bead bracelet excavated in 1898 from Mesa Verde’ Nope, nope, nope. Nope This article is terrible with so many easily verified false statements, what gives?

      • Interesting thought…the value of the “chest” seems to be increasing. Margie Goldsmith recently mentioned the value at around 3 million. We all know the Fenn’s are a very charitable family and that Mr. Fenn has had cancer. Also that a percentage of the proceeds from the sale of the TTOTC book is donated to cancer. Wouldn’t it be cool if the increasing “chest” value had something to do with a secret cancer fund. Who knows maybe even some secret side bets with some well to do people, something like the movie “The Game” with Michael Douglas? Ok that might be a bit far fetched but a cancer fund isn’t. A nice thought anyway.

    • Thank you, Dal. Yes, someone was looking in NYC!!!!!! Never a dull moment Forrest has said again and again that it is “hidden” not “buried.” Yes, I notice “dessert mountains” is new — it was always just “mountains” before this time. Yes, one hunter only got within 200 feet. A few years ago, one hunter got within 600 feet.

      • Here’s a thought: one person could have been significantly closer than 200 feet and the statement “…one hunter got within 200 feet of the treasure…” would still evaluate as true.

        A relevant Fenn quote: “What we’ve learned is that you should always tell the truth, but you should not always tell ALL of the truth.”

        This has probably already been articulated here before, but I thought it worth mentioning…

      • ATP: while I agree with your logic (for the same reason that “less than a few miles” could mean 50 feet), there is a spoken quote from Forrest that suggests the 200-foot distance isn’t a gross overestimate:

        “How do you know searchers have been within 200 feet of the treasure?”

        Forrest: “Well, because there … people have told me exactly where they were, and that’s the only reason I know. And, and, that 200 feet I think is pretty accurate. But there weren’t very many people within 200 … lots of people within 500 feet of the treasure.”

        • Zap,

          I hear you, but in a cursory search, I found 8 quotes directly from Fenn that all indicated a plurality of searchers within approximately 200 feet. In a couple of the quotes he specifically states that he does not know that anyone has been closer to the treasure than about 200′. In another, he speculates that some may have solved the first four clues but that he could not be certain (an indicator, IMO, that hoB will put you in the vicinity of approximately 200′). The 8 quotes I’m referencing spanned from 2/4/15 – 5/27/16.

          This most recent “statement” is unique (one of a kind) in that it specifies a SINGULAR hunter. Why is that? There have been some serious BOTG searches since the most recent of the above quote dates (2016, 2017, and part of 2018 search seasons). Perhaps someone has been in closer range, but Fenn doesn’t want to be too specific.

          Not trying to make a big deal out of it or anything, just speculation on my part.

      • Margie Goldsmith,

        As you can see since Dal mentioned your article, there have been posts from bloggers here & Dal, pointed out inaccuracies and questionable hypothetical instances in your article. I did read your article again and I still stand with my initial statement.

        Defensive as you may be about your article, I wonder if you can accept some of the missteps that were made. I can’t but help think that the article you wrote was to help stir more confusion.

        And example you said above, “A few years ago, one hunter got within 600 feet.” , when over the years Forrest indicated one hunter has been within *500 feet* and others have been within 200 feet. That in its self is a misstep you just posted. I also wonder how closely have you been following the Chase, if you had I don’t think you would be taking missteps in representing the hunt.

        That is my only my opinion as I see things. Common in reading articles about the treasure, some of the writers aren’t accurate, are hypothetical, embellishing without a true understanding of things that have transpired from the beginning of the hunt. This begs the question how closely have you been following the Chase?

        As Seeker often says, End of Commentary

        • Charlie-
          I did not point out anything in my mind that was inaccurate…I clearly stated they were anomalies…that means different from the norm…unusual…
          I am not smart enough to know what’s right or wrong. I am only smart enough to notice when things Margie wrote are different from what other folks have said…doesn’t make them correct or incorrect…just curious to me…anomolies…things I want to track…

          and by the way…Margie has been writing about Forrest since the very beginning and is a personal friend of Forrest’s…she may well know more than any of us about this treasure hunt…

          • I would hope my personal friends would take a few years off my age instead of increasing it.

        • Charlie, see how nice I am to Margie?
          That’s because I know Margie has information about Forrest and this treasure hunt I want to know. I plan on asking her about these things some day.

          • Dal,

            I hear you, I was grouping you in with the bloggers and some of their comments. Sorry! Thank you for clearing things up about Margie’s history with Forrest.

          • I think we would ALL like to know what Margie knows ! About Forrest, that is.
            Margie’s connection to the Chase is one that I view as an important one, being that her connection with Fenn is what helped boomerang this thing into what it has become. The “anomalies” will continue to deepen the mystery and who can not like a great mystery ?

          • I thought the article was cool, but the new item she introduced is that one “hunter” was within 600 feet. I think that is new isn’t it?

            If it is true, no big deal really. 200′, 600′, 500′, etc.

            I’m hoping I am the 600′ guy!

            Franklin
            Leaving Soon for the Chase

          • I don’t see anything regarding 600 feet, but see a repeat of the 200 feet.

    • Hi Dal/Margie/All,

      Dal’s point #1 is curious. Margie does start the second paragraph with “So, who buried the treasure?” The age error on Forrest (89 vs. 87) is probably just an innocent mistake, though Forrest probably would have preferred the error to be in the other direction. 😉

      Single malt scotch was a surprise to me, too. On four occasions do I recall Forrest mentioning drinking alcohol: the Lone Star beers (for the Peanut’s gas tank), having a martini at least once a year to remind himself that he doesn’t like them, drinking wine with Michael Douglas at his place in southern California, and drinking ancient wine that had decayed to vinegar from the amphora in Pompeii. There is Jackie Kennedy’s brandy, but I don’t think he mentions having taken a sip. So single malt scotch seems a bit out of left field.

      Margie has narrowed down the hiding year (or at least is consistent with Doug Preston’s comment in Once Upon a While):

      “In 2010, since Fenn had already put the treasure together, he decided to go ahead and hide it — note ‘hide,’ not ‘bury,’ he is quick to point out.”

      Originally, Forrest wouldn’t say whether he was 79 or 80 when he hid the treasure, but Preston’s account ruled out 80, and we know Forrest hid the chest in “summer,” so we’re still down to June, July or August of 2010.

      Strange that Doug would say 16th Century Italian, when Forrest has been consistent in saying 12th Century.

      Regarding Dal’s blog, Margie writes: “On the blog’s discussion pages there are a quarter of a million comments.” Didn’t Dal’s comment index number pass half a million early this year?

      Forrest still claims it hasn’t been found, and Margie recently mentioned that that information is up to date as of 3 or 4 days ago. So that should lay to rest any claims that Travis’s and McB’s silence are due to them having found the treasure last weekend.

    • Digging for the treasure in NY… most serious searchers in MT know there is a Manhattan near Three Forks. And a Central Park, too.

  14. “…and we had meat only on sunday after church.”

    “on saturdays id go out behind our house to shoot meadowlarks for supper.”

    whaaaaaaaaat?

    • That’s from the book BadgeR…you should read it so you have some context…Forrest was relating how little money there was in his family’s pockets, so they skimped and saved and Forrest even hunted birds to put on the dinner table.

    • Hi Dal: I think BadgeR’s “whaaaat?” may not have been targeted at the shooting-meadowlarks-for-supper comment, but rather the seeming discrepancy between having “meat only on Sunday” and yet eating meadowlarks on Saturday. Nevertheless, you provided the answer to the conundrum in your reply: context.

      The full quote gives the answer: “In those days the noon meal was called dinner, and we had meat only on Sunday after church.” Translation: the Fenn’s only had meat for *lunch* on Sundays. No mention of day-of-the-week meat restrictions for supper (or breakfast, for that matter).

        • its all in his improper use of omittance of and removal or disregard of and for the comma.
          i made that word up

      • rite on. ill buy that.
        thank you dal and zap.
        is there any explanation for the sardine sandwich (and apple) that was obviously his non-preferred brown bag lunch alternative to fritos and a coke?
        its all relatively relevant……perhaps

      • BadgeR: the only Fritos connection I ever found was that they were first introduced in 1932 — in San Antonio. So, like Dr Pepper, Fritos originated in Forrest’s home state.

      • wait a sec…
        isnt translating fenns words “having meat only on sunday”
        to “only had meat (for lunch) on sunday’
        messing with his story?
        there is a point. bear with me.
        how can it be read how it is written and still not conflict with other statements in the book?

      • it is in this way that we read the poem that sets us up for failure……maybe

      • BadgeR: it shows that context is important for a proper intepretation. In this case, the context is “In those days the noon meal was called dinner.” So he’s talking about having what most people call lunch, and in the context of having lunch he adds that they only had meat (for lunch) on Sundays after church. He then gives an example of said “meat”: fried chicken. So Forrest considers fowl to fall under the meat category. Therefore, meadowlarks should also qualify.

        Also, if fowl is meat, then surely bacon is as well. And it sounds like they had bacon for breakfast (with no mention of the days of the week they ate it).

        • ok. my point.
          is forrest saying that they had meat only (nothing else) on sundays after church?
          this conflicts with nothing and makes all his other comments jive and isnt messing with his story

        • BadgeR: sure, that’s a valid English interpretation as well. Though perhaps not a very likely one: fried chicken for lunch … and nothing else. No veggies, no bread.

  15. There was also a recent article in UK’s The Guardian:

    https://www.theguardian.com/environment/2018/jul/02/forrest-fenn-treasure-hunters-millionaire-rockies

    Its title declares the chase a “deadly quest”. The subtitle entices readers with the morbid assertion “Four people have died….As the casualties mount…”

    Whereas the Daily Mail piece seemed rather balanced, this article is a bit of sensationalism. It was panned by posters over on THOR who call it a crock and drama. I’m surprised searchers willingly accommodate these writers who then label them as members of an ‘infatuated cult.’

    • I’m not going to comment much about the article. Most reporters today don’t attempt to tell ‘a story’ – rather they attempt to sell the mag. or newspaper by any means necessary. You do that by telling folks what they should worry about.. and that is very affected to the many… because many are very gullible. {Would you want to bring little Sally and Billy out into the dangerous USA public lands, after reading this? Yep, BS at it best}

      What struct me as odd was the constant showing and telling of the “pink” handgun… like this is a must have to go on an adventure of this nature, and/or, look what this treasure hunt is forcing folks to do.. Millions go into these areas without firearms or even bear-spray each and everyday of the year all across the USA. But this reporter enjoyed showing of the cute pink little handgun. [ which looked like a 22 or 380… great for snake shot… but will only get the big cats and bears.. even an angry badger tick off even more. It’s false security at best ]

      {personal note from a gun owner… pink, baby blue, purple is for toys, giving the wrong impression to kids, or make law enforcement to wonder is that a toy or the real thing… and not a dang fashion statement for a firearm}
      ***IF ya’ll want to talk about safety in the chase??? !!! Folks need to start thinking with common sense, rather than what looks nice with my purse or belt.

      End of commentary.

      • Now I get to worry about running into someone on a hike with a jazzy handgun. What type of people do articles like this draw in I wonder? Probably less family oriented folks looking for their next adventure, and more thrill seeking types.

        I’d rather have an invisibility cloak. Where can I find one of those?

      • My pink gun was a gift from my ex husband. I take it with me for 2 legged animals. Not the 4 legged ones.

        I went to my search area one day to find a man there. He called me out by name and refused to give me his name. Last week, I got 3 phone calls in 10 minutes from a man who described exactly what he would like to do to me.

        I also sell real estate. I have gone to show houses and found doors kicked open, squatters inside, high on drugs. I don’t leave home without my gun.

    • aard-
      Searchers contacted by journalists have no idea how the story will be told or how they will be used or quoted in the story. Look at how the writer, Gilbert, in that story used the often repeated searcher phrase… “I just wish someone would find the chest so I could get on with my life.”…or something to that effect…As experienced searchers we say it off-handedly…rarely do we truly mean what it suggests…what we all want is to find the chest ourselves…anything less will be a major let-down…

      But you take a scheming writer like Gilbert who provides content to editors of sensationalist media like The Guardian …a guy who can twist the most mundane quote into an affirmation of fear, or greed or hate…and you have searchers mesmerized into treasure chest addiction and fodder for the readers of supermarket tabloids all over the world…

      In Gilbert’s manipulative mind we are no longer simply having fun…we are obsessed.
      No longer appreciative and curious about Forrest Fenn but cultists.
      No longer concerned about safety…but extremists
      There is no effective way to combat the twisted sensationalist devouring culture nipping at our heels. We are ripe for exploitation by them…
      Their inspection, spinning and retelling of us cannot be avoided…

      The only way to extract yourself personally from contributing to the unprincipled theatrics of a writer like Gilbert is to familiarize yourself with the writer and her/his publication before you speak with them. Spend a few minutes googling their name and read from their publication before you agree to an interview…

      I have been producing stories about people and places for over 50 years. Typically, I find that the more community based a publication, the more principled the journalist and the less pandering to a sensationalist readership will be the resulting story. That being said, there are certainly reputable national media outlets and very principled national journalists…but caution is always prudent…Google before speaking…

      Now that I’ve said all this from my high and mighty pulpit…I will probably unknowingly appear in the Crusader talking about the “pureness” of the searchers who hunt for Forrest’s chest. 🙂

  16. A couple things that are head scratchers.

    52 Pills-Only 52’s we’ve seen dropped bombs
    Single Malt Scotch-I’m not sure on this one. I thought he didn’t drink. I love scotch!
    High Dry Mountains-Begin it in a dry area perhaps?
    One searcher was 200 feet away (a while ago) and Forrest is wavering with his gut feeling (now). I believe two searchers are/were in the correct location but only one of them knows it.

    Just my pointless ponderings. Happy Independence Day Treasure Hunters! And did you know that July 4th also marks the passing of John Adams, Thomas Jefferson and Ben Franklin? Curious.

    • Copper: another 52: 52 in a deck of cards. Without the jokers, of course!

    • For all of you Marvel fans…

      In September 2011, The New 52 rebooted DC’s continuity. In this new timeline, a modified version of the Omega Men dubbed The Omegas was introduced. The new group consists of young aliens under the tutelage of Zealot. Each of the aliens’ parents were enslaved by Lobo, and they are united in seeking revenge on the marauder. 🙂

    • Actually James Monroe was the third to die on July 4th:

      John Adams and Thomas Jefferson on July 4, 1826
      James Monroe: July 4, 1831

    • Almost like someone was getting warmer but now they are getting colder.

  17. Hello room!
    Some help needed, please.
    I have been reading old interviews and can’t find what I’m looking for.
    I also, thought it was mentioned on here the other day, but can’t find it now.
    Did Mr. Fenn’s poem at one time have a different name?

      • Thanks Zap.
        I thought Mr. Fenn had said it was untitled.
        Yet, I thought someone on the blogs had mentioned an early title that had been changed.
        My Cluelessness is shining today.
        CC

    • It was the treasure chest that had the different name.
      It’s called “Indulgence” now, but originally had the name “Tarzan.”

  18. Oh boy, Margie’s article is loaded with hints.
    What to say, and more importantly, what NOT to say.
    Let me start by saying the obligatory “In My Opinion.”

    Let me start with the 52 sleeping pills and the desert mountains.
    If you head south from Santa Fe on Hwy 25, go down to Socorro, and head west on 60, then go through Magdalena, then a little farther, you’ll come to the “Very Large Array. “Here Me All, And Listen Good.”
    http://ontheworldmap.com/usa/state/new-mexico/new-mexico-road-map.jpg
    https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Very_Large_Array
    This is on “Old Hwy 60”, but you turn south off of 60 on 52. This is the 52 hint.
    From here, 52 heads south and runs past the Cibola National Forest. We all should know that Cebola was one of the lost cities of gold.
    This is part of the hint “Look At The Big Picture”.
    I’ll end this one there and maybe it’ll help someone.

    This next one I’ve seen posters (as I’ve been a lurker for some time) mention parts or all of.
    -Toledo.-
    The largest newspaper in Toledo, Ohio, is the “Blade.”
    Toledo, Spain, was famous for making bladed weapons. Think of the F100 Super Saber here, which Forrest was shot down in.
    Toledo also is famous for bull fighting. This should remind us all of Buffalo Bulls, of which Forrest has written about.
    And lets not forget the “Bullseye” hide.
    Toledo, Spain’s, flag and coat of arms are adorned with a double headed eagle. The treasure includes single and double eagle gold coins.
    The coat of arms was granted a special royal privilege to be based on the Royal Arms Of Spain.
    Think here of the Spanish Gold Ring that’s included in the chest, and this article.

    Here are hints as I see it. In my opinion, naturally.

    I’m recruiting help, please.
    http://mysteriouswritings.proboards.com/thread/2232/looking-botg-help

      • Is there a particular thing you want to point out? I’ve read it before.

        • Maybe something about being 8.25 miles NORTH of SF – Socorro and Magdalena and array are all SOUTH aren’t they?

          Holy Toledo, where do I go from there? DAHHHH JDA

          • And the Toledo stuff is again, hints. Hints to how to solve the quest.
            A lot of Forrest’ stuff are hints to how to proceed in solving this.
            In my opinion.

          • By the way, as to the Array south of Santa Fe.
            Forrest said “dessert mountains”, and if you’ll recall he’s said that the treasure is not in the dessert.
            That’s a hint right there, to look in the local dessert area. Do you see that?

          • Renard,

            Here’s the best hint I can give you, none of them are hints!

            Oh…….imo!

          • I could show you how they are, Butch, but then I’d have to….you know. lol

          • Regard,

            That’s very kind of you but I have my solve already, and its just as well what with all this er…….stuff flying around the vlogs! Damon that stuff could get contagious!

        • Cheat Sheet

          I’ve listed some things that may or may not help some of you:

          What we are taking as fact:
          ♦Located above 5,000 ft and below 10,200 ft.
          ♦At least 8.25 miles North of Santa Fe, New Mexico

          • Thank you pdenver, but as you can see now, I’ve just answered to those.

    • Holy Toledo! My eyes are crossed. This reminds me of those books “if you give a moose a muffin or a pig a pancake.” You start with one thing and get distracted by another, until you wind back up at the beginning. Great books!

      • And this is why it’s so hard to solve.
        Forrest takes you on a long and winding journey and you have to connect the dots.
        In my opinion.

        • And still, the actual solve, like Forrest said, you’ll slap your head and say “why didn’t I think of that.”
          All this other stuff can guide you there, and it supports it. And it gives confidence.
          In my opinion.

          • If you think Mr Fenn gives false “hints” why not look in Canada or Utah?
            I think that people who ignore important directions to a hidden treasure given by the man who hid it have a zero chance of connecting any dots.
            I challenge you to prove me wrong.

            (PS. The Toledo comment was: “said in jest…there is no clue there.”)

          • * * * * Renard Miroir reminded us “And still, the actual solve, like Forrest said, you’ll slap your head and say “why didn’t I think of that.”” * * * *

            As he’s on the inside looking out, I’ve often wondered how reliable a guide ff can be on this kind of question.

            I’ve proposed this question as a hypothetical before:

            Dear Forrest – If all we had was the poem, good maps, and THE ACTUAL LOCATION FROM WHICH THE TREASURE WAS RECOVERED, how long do you think 101 Dal-mations could continue to argue about the actual clues and hints?

            Kos

          • Randawg said:
            “If you think Mr Fenn gives false “hints” why not look in Canada or Utah?”

            Where did I say that Forrest gave false hints?

        • Well Renard,
          Besides what has been said by others… there’s;
          Plain English, Latin { or another language if plain English means just that } will not assist…
          Then we have fenn; ‘followed the clues when he hid the chest’… why go a couple hundreds miles [south, west etc.] driving clues, If all he needed to do was drive more than 8.25 miles northward to the hidey spot?

          Did I miss anything? oh right, there’s nothing in the chest related to the hide location [paraphrasing a Q&A about contents in the chest]
          But hey! do as ya please… hope ya enjoy the drive.

          • Hi Renard, Don’t worry, this above is coming from a guy who felt the HoB was originating in the state of MN. He must have forgotten that when making these remarks to you. I do not see why not…ATFs could be hints outside the search zone to give people a better idea about the solve or Fenn’s logic. I personally do not see what you saw in this particular article…but also do not think you should be receiving any flack about this from Seeker who had a HoB originating in Minnesota. Dave

          • Dave,
            I won’t bother say that many of the AFT’s info we know of today was not stated when I had my brilliant idea.
            But I wont use excuses of not knowing at the time… But maybe you can explain why fenn would follow the clues “when he hid the chest” if there are miles between them and south of the know search areas and more than 8.25 mile North of SF?
            And while your at it.. maybe explain, as you said; ATFs could be hints outside the search zone to give people a better idea about the solve or Fenn’s logic.

            I’d like to here the thoughts…

            PS. hoB is not in MN in that old theory. It represented the 45 degree paralleled ‘In the RM’s’… So before you bark you should understand better what you’re trying to bite off. I’ll even admit, early on, WWWH as a dam was one of my first thoughts, like so many others… good thing I didn’t jump the gun and run looking for dams all over the RM’s.. huh?

          • Seeker can:
            Dish it out = yes
            Take it = No
            Seeker, you might want to now try to re-write history but it is not going to work…your HoB originated in MN and then your tried to ‘stretch’ it to make it the 45th parallel.. Don’t be a troll. That’s all I am saying. People can get insight into ff’s mind through his comments in these articles, inside or outside the search zone…and if that is what Ranard is doing then more power to him. He was not being arrogant, and he clearly knew what he was referencing was outside of the search zone so why troll him…other than you just wanting to be a troll.

            As for going out an searching as opposed to sitting on the coach like you, I could say something more cruel but I won’t because I do not know your individual situation and why you cannot search. searching is fun….BOTG is fun…if you are bitter about others doing that please keep it to yourself. Dave

          • Seeker: this may not be the tree Renard is barking up, but it seems to me that “hints” don’t have to abide by any geographic restrictions on the chest’s location. Forrest could hint to a location through a name shared by a very distant, unrelated spot.

          • Dave, It’s one thing to bark about ideas, thoughts, buck heads about whatIF’s etc.
            Don’t take it to a personal level.

          • Latin is used in the hints.
            I’ll give you an example.
            In OUAW, page 7, “The Long Jump” are the stick figures jumping off the bridge.
            On the far left is Edard. The missing “w” is the lower case for Omega. (Latin)
            On the far right is Laurens. Laurens is a Dutch name that comes down from Lurentum, Italy, and it means “laurels”.
            Laurels were worn on the head as a sort of crown for winners of contests in ancient Greece, Rome, and other places.
            Note that the Laurens figure is equally down as the Edard figure, equating to the Omega end of the chase.
            That’s the one who was within 200′ in this article.
            And there’s one more thing to figure out for the win.

            I’d have to dig through my notes to find other examples of Latin used, but my notes are extensive.

          • And as to the items in the chest, Seeker, Forrest said they didn’t have anything to do with the treasure’s location.
            But they have everything to do with the clue locations.
            Items are a big thing in solving this. Each one of them.

          • Renard – an interesting set of FACTS you have presented – Just sayin ‘ – JDA

          • Zap,
            I never said they had to [ hint or clues ]… I only refer to the post, which was all south.
            My question was… why would fenn follow clues all over Southern NM ‘when he hid the chest’ when we know the chest in N. of SF. [ that comment was a relatively recent one…]
            I also mentioned the Q&A about the contents of the chest, idea, and the use of another language/interpretation of…
            Folks can dismiss what they want… but if you’re going to post… ya’ll should expect comments and question.

            Not unlike Dave and one of my old theories of hoB… he didn’t like the actual reasoning behind the thought so he barks accusations, and started mouthing off. He didn’t understand the location in MN’s history is very similar to a search area within the RM’s or how the idea of the clue connected to the area. He only want it to be about MN only… it make for a poor excuse, just so he can get a bltchon.

            Renard even stated; ‘Forrest takes you on a long and winding journey and you have to connect the dots.’
            If it’s the long and winding way… that implies there’s a shorter way… Right? So why would fenn take the longer, winding way?

          • Renard ~’But they have everything to do with the clue locations. Items are a big thing in solving this. Each one of them.’

            If that’s possible, then we should also say fenn “didn’t’ follow “all” the clues… when he said he followed the clues…. One has to be wrong, Right?
            If anything fenn says is always to be expected as 1/2 truth or misleading.. I guess the trove can be in The RM’s in Utah. There are sections on the tftw map that are shaded in just over the boundary line… So lets just dismiss the other comment about Utah out of the running.

            I’d be curious to all the items you believe are involved… care to share the names of the items?

          • Renard,
            Lets have a look at the Q&A I referred to… because I know it well…

            Q~ Are there any objects placed in the Bronze Chest that are connected, or have meaning to the place the chest is hidden? ~ Mike

            A~ No Mike, everything in the chest is straight forward and visual, except my autobiography, which some might find dull. Oops, I forgot, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues. I think that person will be pleased when she sees it. f

            Fenn created the clues, they are for one purpose only… as you said… connect the dot to the chest. If nothing inside the chest is connected to the location of the chest… and the created clues are only ‘connected’ to the location of the chest… What is the most logical reasoning? How can items in the chest be connected to clues [ and not the chest’ location ] when clues are the only connection we have to the location?

          • Seeker said:
            “Renard even stated; ‘Forrest takes you on a long and winding journey and you have to connect the dots.’
            If it’s the long and winding way… that implies there’s a shorter way… Right? So why would fenn take the longer, winding way?”

            That’s not what I meant, Seeker. What I meant was that there are hints that wind throughout the books and everything else. And you have to connect the dots to get to the bigger hint(s) that they lead to.

          • Hi Seeker,

            “I never said they had to [ hint or clues ]… I only refer to the post, which was all south.”

            For hints, I don’t think it would matter if Forrest mentioned the Moon or Mars. The geography could be totally irrelevant.

            “My question was… why would fenn follow clues all over Southern NM ‘when he hid the chest’ when we know the chest in N. of SF. [ that comment was a relatively recent one…]”

            Don’t get me wrong — I think anyone chasing landmarks south of Santa Fe is running a fool’s errand.

            “Renard even stated; ‘Forrest takes you on a long and winding journey and you have to connect the dots.’
            If it’s the long and winding way… that implies there’s a shorter way… Right? So why would fenn take the longer, winding way?”

            You need to divorce hints from clues. There is no Fenn requirement to “follow” hints. Forrest makes a clear distinction between clues and hints. The gloves are off for hints — they could refer to anyone, anything, anytime, anywhere, don’t need to be contiguous, don’t need to be consecutive, don’t need to follow any rules whatsoever. Forrest has never placed restrictions on the scope of hints. But!! Hints absolutely cannot be essential elements of a “correct solve.” This is where Renard’s strawman seems to fall flat: he is gleaning what would appear to be essential information from hints that are clearly not in the poem. That’s a no-no.

          • This is an interesting thread…and entertaining to boot. A lot of good points and ideas for sure…and it becomes clearer the importance of focusing on the poem and the book that started it all, TTOTC.
            The SB, ATF and all info from Fenn after the publishing of TTOTC can be useful to a certain extent…but very risky to base any kind of idea or solution on. Fenn has given us the recipe for success many times…poem, book, GE and or a good map. Everything else is an added ingredient that can mutate into an ugly mess.
            It will be interesting to see or understand just how “subtle” the actual hints in TTOTC actually are once the treasure is retrieved and the solution is revealed. That is assuming the actual “correct solve” is revealed. Until then….bon appetite!

          • As an add-on….My only question to Renard would be;
            What does your current theory have to do with nailing down the first clue? This Q is based on what you have presented above…ATF smaller on-going hints leading the bigger real hints.

    • Ok, I’m going to go an extra step here to explain something.
      The 52 part is a hint to the fact that Forrest has been building a road map through hints.
      The wrong age 89 is also a part of this hint, stands for hwy 89, which goes from Flagstaff, Arizona where Northern Arizona University is, up to Wyoming.
      You might recall this years other road map that went through Denver, and again led up to Wyoming.

  19. Red Herring Alert
    52 on the Periodic Table
    “Tellurium”
    And we know Scotch Whiskey comes from Scotland.

    A guy from Scotland will “Tell” us something.
    Should we listen good?

    • So close!

      Scotch Whisky comes from Scotland.

      Whiskey comes from the packy. 😉

      Jake

    • Let me show you where that rabbit hole is…
      “It is commonly assumed that most epithermal gold deposits associated with alkaline igneous rocks (deficient in silica with respect to alkalis) are enriched in tellurium, and within Colorado and New Mexico, many deposits are indeed tellurium-rich. However, many known alkalic-related deposits contain low tellurium concentrations. Alternatively, significant tellurium concentrations are associated with some calc-alkaline epithermal gold deposits. Cripple Creek and deposits in the Jamestown district in Boulder County are alkaline-related gold deposits in which gold resides primarily within gold-tellurium minerals. Whole rock ore samples from Cripple Creek and Boulder County contain tens of parts per million to over 0.1% tellurium. However, very few of the alkaline-related epithermal deposits in New Mexico contain significant concentrations of tellurium. The Lone Pine calc-alkaline epithermal gold deposit, which contains gold-tellurium minerals and native tellurium, has been the only producer of tellurium in New Mexico.”

    • To go further with strings, one could think of Telluride, which was also named after Tellurium. Butch Cassidy robbed the San Miguel Valley bank, (Butch Cassidy and the Sundance Kid….Robert Redford). Fun things to consider.

  20. “101 Dal-mations”

    Funniest thing ever stated on this blog!

    Congrats!

  21. fyi for anyone keeping score I made my trip recently for a 1 day botg search and did not find the tc where i thought it might be. I did not cover the whole search area due to my focus on a fairly specific part so I will go back after thinking about TSWMG for awhile. I’m obviously missing something. I believe from blaze to tc is the most difficult part of the search and is not obvious or straightforward. good luck to you other searchers.

    • Good to hear from you Cowbell,

      I was wondering if you were going to get “there” before me…

      Also I heard you and TLo had a great meet up as well.

      Been busy but by-far not absent from the Chase. As to Forrest Fenn’s recent comments, all I can say is time will tell the tale!

      However here is a cool little piece to think about:

      SeanNM had a live group chat on the structure of the poem and a good portion of the discussion was on the nature of Stanza’s 1, 5, and 6. I have shared my thoughts and opinions on this previously, in that they provide “hints” to the decoding or how to “correctly” interpret the 9 clues provided in Stanza’s 2-4. Further they corroborate and help fill in details to assist in locating the treasure chest.

      By the time you figure out the methodology of the “effort” necessary to unravel the poem, it allows you back to see the 1st Stanza with new appreciation.

      So for example lets just take the last half of line #20:
      “I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.”
      AND acts as the conjunction between the two main components of what’s been “DONE” and how it was accomplished; both “tired” AND “weak.” But for now let’s just look at the “weak” part because Forrest provides a unique qualifier; “now” and this partial clause is separated in the verse by a comma meaning that it is to be seen as a unit therefore it’s “tired” and “now weak.”

      OK the word now means like “this very moment” or “the moment.” Therefore it is weakness of the moment or a “moment of weakness.”

      So as an idiom; what is a moment of weakness?

      GCG

      • GCG…I like the premise of “your” break down of that particular line and it does make sense in general. My interpretation of the word “now” differs in that it means “as a consequence of” which leads to a markedly different approach in the sequence. Thoughts?

        • ken,

          In my breakdowns of the poem not only is nearly every word useful in understanding its clues but every word is intended to have multiple meanings to be used simultaneously yet applied differently between the literal and figurative uses. This in my estimation is the back and forth, that Forrest alludes to with the backward steering bicycle.

          As “your thoughts” regarding; “as a consequence of” this would be an accurate “literal interpretation” of the clause IMO…

          The trick is to see how this applies to the ANSWERS Forrest already knows which he references in the line before.

          SeanNM made the astute conjecture that Forrest wrote this portion along with Stanza’s 2-4 prior to hiding the treasure (for sure) while the remaining portions could have been completed afterwards.

          Sean if you happen to read this thread: Verses #17 is also signaling that all 9 clues occur prior to this verse (I realize you are a 9 sentences, 9 clues guy but strictly speaking the “official” 9 clues proceed this verse IMO).

          I’ll go further and assert that the question is also the “legend” for understanding how to correctly decipher the poem’s clues…

          “So why is it that I must go
          and leave my trove for all to seek?”

          GCG

          • GCG…Thanks for your reply. You explained your position clearly and I understand what you are saying. It seems to be quite a leap to assume what is literal and what is not…but that is just another example of the vast array of opinions. The one true Fenn comment that I believe is grossly overlooked and essential to staying on track is his “straightforward” answer to Seeker’s Q back in 2014.
            His backward bicycle thingy I believe is much more general and basic in nature, and was intended to emphasize folks to think about “adjustment”…and to learn how to think the right things in the process.
            I don’t believe there is any “trick” to reading or understanding the words or lines(verses)…I think it simply boils down to knowing the starting point without doubt and proceeding correctly from there.
            Just one final comment about your “now” theory; I think it may be an error to not be able to see that it may be a *cause and effect* statement that contains info that differs from what you may believe. He is “weak” as a result of his previous actions…and I believe the successful searcher will be too….and not from strenuous activities. Fun stuff! Enjoy yourself GCG and have a good one.

          • ken,

            I work hard not to get too attached to my interpretations however its very difficult given my desire for further certainty and the will to take deliberate actions.

            One’s own head is an echo chamber so thanks for your reply – I now have someone else’s words to bounce around inside my mind… Very much appreciated since to error is human and errors matter a bunch in this game when you get to the bank.

            GCG

        • Thanks for keeping me honest ken.

          I work hard to stay fluid and flexible such that I’m not trapped by incorrect postulations. Its difficult though given the need for some measure of certainty and its also why I share on the forums…

          Your own headspace is an echo chamber and now I have your words to bounce around inside there as well.

          GCG

      • Hi GCG, what is a moment of weakness?

        Doubt, a bad decision, to give up, a sin?

        • GCG, that makes sense but if that is a partial clause that belongs to the ‘unit’, how does ‘tired’ work into it?

          What has been done -tired- precedes or is it described after that line? Is it literarily or figurative?

      • Hi GCG

        Way back in 2012, within 2 years of the day Fenn secreted the treasure in the Mountains north of Santa Fe a searcher was within 200 feet of the treasure.

        Do you think that person figured out the methodology of the effort?

        Lugnutz

        • NO Lugnutz!

          I do not.

          Forrest even went so far as to say that some of the people who have been close were aberrations. Additionally based on what I believe I know about the poem, I’ll assert that they hadn’t “truly” figured out the first 2 clues.

          They were in the right spot but largely based on luck and that is ultimately why they didn’t find the Treasure or get any closer and just moved on to another location or gave up entirely.

          GCG

          • Lug,

            To be more clear about my previous answer.

            The Rocky Mountains are a large area but not infinite and there have been a large number of searchers roaming the range from North of Santa Fe to Canada therefore of course some searchers have been in the general area of the treasures hiding spot…

            GCG

          • Lug,

            Here is one of the best quotes from Forrest on what the early searchers new regarding their success with clues #1 and #2.

            Forrest Gets Crazy Mail…hoD
            Hi Forrest,
            I saw an excerpt from your Oct 22 event at the bookstore where you mentioned again that the furthest people have gotten was only figuring out the first 2 clues. Rod

            Rod,
            “Those who have solved the first two clues are not aware that they did, so I don’t see that as useful information for anyone.”

            GCG

          • GCG

            NO.

            The searchers knew they were at the spot they had determined was WWWH.

            They don’t KNOW it because they didn’t find the treasure.

            Everyone is looking at too large of an area. Everyone always has.

            Lugnutz

          • Lug –

            I’m sure you’ve seen this page before, but I always thought the logic for the size of the search area lined up with what you said too…

          • P.T.

            Interesting, but I find one thing I very much disagree with – the assertion that clues 1 and 2, and you are within 500′ and maybe even 200′. To me, whoever wrote this is combining two unrelated quotes. Yes people have solved clues 1 and 2 – True.

            People have been within 500′ and even 200′, and not even know it – probably true. Some MAY have known, but for some reason just couldn’t get closer.

            Two true things – but for me – not related – JMO – JDA

          • JDA,

            I’m with you, I didn’t agree with a lot of it either, but it did get my brain thinking…

            Very much like the rabbit holes I know we’ve all been down trying to solve the clues, we might also be thinking a bit to large in physical size as far as search area goes.

            Just a thought I had. Simplify the solves and shrink the search area.

          • P.T.

            Simplify and shrink the search area. How does one do this? There are nine clues, and if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow – or words similar to that.

            If clue #1 (WWWH) takes you down a canyon a particular distance to a “Put-in” point that is below hoB – and you find your hoB – how can you simplify that, and you certainly can’t shrink the search area – the clues have defined the area.

            If you think the area is too large, go look for a different WWWWH, and start over, but you can not “MOVE” your hoB in order to shrink your search area.

            Sorry, your logic evades me – just do not know how to implement it – JMO – JDA

          • My brain is a little mushy this morning (a little too much fun last night for a Wednesday) I did a terrible job explaining. Heh.

            I think what I was trying to say was: I often wonder if the distance between the points in the clues is smaller than we think.

          • P.T.

            Again, if you are following the clues precisely – going from one clue to the next, the distance will be what it is. No changing that.

            If you are proposing that if going from wwwh, down the canyon – looking for a “put-in” point that is below hoB, and it turns out to be a LONG distance (Say 25 miles) – that you discard it, and look for a closer hoB – I agree, and I would.

            If a closer hoB can not be found – discard your current wwwh and start over – I would. JMO – JDA

      • GCG – glad to hear from you. did you get out with botg yet?

        hopefully your trip was a success. life usually gets in the way of solid plans lol and work is keeping me boxed in much more that I prefer.

        yes meeting TLo was pretty awesome. Great guy all around and nice to hang with. He’s pretty brave too when it comes to searching lol.

        Anyway I appreciate your trying to help me with ideas. I believe I’m at the correct location but so far I haven’t found the hidey spot.

        trying to think like ff with botg is my focus for now.

        • Hahaha I may be brave but not in the wood yet…

          I’ll be back in mid August and I will let you know for sure! Looking Forward to Meeting you!

          Best, TLo

    • MoreCowBell,

      Here is a lesser known or recited quote by Forrest relative to the Blaze and the Treasure:

      May 13, 2016
      http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-q…asurement/

      Mr. Forest, I was just wondering. If I can find the blase, why should I worry about where warm waters halt? All I need to do is look “quickly down” like the poem says, and there is the treasure, right? ~ Philadelphia Franklin

      “That’s correct Philly,”

      MCB – from there Forrest goes on to say the following which is more often remembered:

      “but that’s not a plausible scenario. If you can find a fish already on your hook you needn’t go fishing, right? Don’t force those kinds of aberrational thoughts on yourself or you’ll likely walk back to your car with a very light back pack. f”

      But the very first statement says a lot…

      GCG

  22. I am wondering if anyone on this blog is actually in or near the Memphis, Tennessee area? I live in that area and I am having a hard time trying to find others who I can meet with to discuss the chase. No one around me has any interest and they think it’s fake. I have been researching this since around 2014 and I have ideas like others but have yet to go myself. If anyone is near me and interested to talk about the chase, feel free to email me. My name is Stephen.

    • Stephen: welcome. I think Seeker may be close to you, but my memory could be completely wrong on that.

      • How do I contact seeker? It would be cool to talk this out with others. I’m not a big blogger.

      • Stephan,
        There are a few in TN and some on KY [ one fellow is near Knoxville. I’m near Nash, and another above Bowling Green. and I think there’s someone near Jackson etc…. It could be a good get-together for the regional folks interested in a group cawfee gathering. But you are talking 2-3, even 5 hour drive for some just to meet in the middle [one way].
        As you know.. TN is short and fat… it takes almost 8 hours to drive one end[E] to the other[W], but hardly 2 hours N to S. { and that is, IF you can get by Nashville’s bottleneck without another 3 hour delay. or someone hit a Squirrel and the close the road to take skip marks on the pavement.}

        All I’m saying is… that better be some great Cawfee.

        • Funny…it would be awesome to meet with a lot of people one day. They have a Fennboree event once a year that I cannot make it to….maybe we could have a one day event for the year like that here in tennessee. Just an idea.

        • I would travel for the java…as long as someone guarantees it is good. About 16 hrs. but worth it to put faces to others.

          • I would travel for the music! That’s for sure… but only if I can hear it… I have a picture in my mind of Seeker behind some microphones and the others are listening… I don’t know why… 🙂

  23. Stephen, I live in Bartlett and you can email me at wfhbcm04 at gmail dot com. Maybe set up a meeting or phone call. I don’t know how much I can help since I started the hunt in April 2018.
    fishbowl

    • Cool. Got to go to bed for work tomorrow, but I will try to email you tomorrow.

  24. This comment is directed at Renard. I’m too dumb to figure out how to reply up the thread. Renard, you discussed “laurels” as reference to a crown. I reread scrapbook 52, curious if he wanted us to read back at old SB’s. Again he discusses Mountain Laurels.

    Perhaps you are on to something. So is our crowned hero a scotch drinker perhaps? Or are they simply singular and the only one close to finding Tarzan? I think Tarzan seems more fitting….so I’m sticking with him.

    Good find Renard.

    • Hi Copper. Laurels are from a line in the poem. I forgot to add it to my post but saw someone talking about it and remembered.
      The line in the poem is this one:
      “I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.”

      Looking up “weak” in Merriam-Webster’s, there’s these definitions….

      7 a : of, relating to, or constituting a verb or verb conjugation that in English forms the past tense and past participle by adding the suffix -ed or -d or -t
      b: of a noun or adjective declension in Germanic languages : retaining a lesser number of distinctions in case, number and gender
      8 a : bearing the minimal degree of stress occurring in the language
      a weak syllable
      b : having little or no stress and obscured vowel sound
      ‘d in he’d is the weak form of would

      Looking at definition 8b, it’s clear that this poem line has two of these forms of “weak vowel sounds” in the words “I’ve” and “I’m”.

      It says that “AND NOW I’m weak”. Meaning that “I” (or whoever the poem is being told by) just now became weak.
      And that means that it was because of what “I” just said.
      Which was “I’ve done it tired.”
      So lets assume that “tired is also a weak form, as in definition 7a.
      As in, tire, past tense with a weak “d” on the end.

      Looking up “tire” in Merriam-Websters, and going down beyond the common usage, we find this definition:

      1 obsolete : attire
      2 archaic : a woman’s headband or hair ornament

      So this line in the poem,
      “I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak”,
      means
      “I’ve done it attired in a laurel crown, and now I’ve said it in the weak past tense.”

      Many searchers think that rabbit holes are a bad thing. But they are where the answers are.
      For a real rabbit hole, and connected to “laurels”, start researching Minerva (from the vignette here at Dals, https://dalneitzel.com/2014/10/25/ivory-is-the-flesh-of-minerva/ ). The ancient gods and goddesses were often “tired” with laurels.
      This is the start to many answers, if you know what the questions are.
      Links, links, and more links.
      And you’ll eventually find out where the name “Indulgence” comes from, if you’re successful.

      As far as “our hero” goes, they need to be crowned first.
      But you mention the name “Tarzan”.
      In the original stories by Edgar Rice Burroughs, the name Tarzan comes from the fictional Ape Language, and it means “White Skin”.
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Tarzan
      Wasn’t I just talking about “Minerva”, carved from ivory?

      • Wow! I’ll need to reread that about 40 times. Thank you.

        So where was Forrest plopped down into a jungle like Tarzan? Where would his skin have been “whiter?”

        Thanks for your response. Sounds to me like there is more than one way to crack this nut.

        • There seems to be many ways to crack this nut.
          Forrest has doubled down in many ways.
          But it could be like a funnel, and the answers could be narrowing down at the end.
          This is something I’m not sure about yet.
          I need to get to my blaze to know more.
          But I need help now for BOTG because I’m out of money and can’t make the final hike if a new obstacle to driving is still present.
          Please see my call for help at:
          http://mysteriouswritings.proboards.com/thread/2232/looking-botg-help

      • Hi Renard

        You are reading the definition of Weak but not fully understanding how the term is used in poetry.

        So read about that. It has nothing to do with this Chase, but you seem to enjoy gained knowledge.

        In poetry there are weak syllables and strong syllables. That’s how poetry and song work. It establishes the rhythm and that’s what makes it work.

        Also, before there were codes there was poetry. A weak word at the end of a sentence was an indicator to reverse direction.

        Lug

        • Hi Lugnutz. It seems to me that either way, yours or mine, might apply.
          It’s the one (or maybe BOTH) that has support from elsewhere in Forrest’ works and words that actually applies.

  25. Just a thought…..After the Chest is found the Great Outdoors will go back to being 100% safe……..NOT!. News Media should start keeping a new running total…”Deadly National Parks claim another One!” . Ken in Georgia

    • Ken, your point is well-taken. However: I wouldn’t assume that people will stop looking for Fenn’s treasure once it’s found. Many will refuse to believe it, regardless of how strong the proof.

    • Interesting thought Ken Joyce. I suspect that individual media sources operate with attached motives going into a story…thus skewing what is intentional and not. There are plenty of stories about which you speak.
      And Zap…I agree…some folks just won’t believe they could have been wrong and will continue on.

      • What an interesting point, do you mean that through pure cognitive dissonance that people will continue to search, I have to admit that is one thing that never crossed my mind……WOW

  26. Thanks so much for the great site Dal, I’ve been a long time reader but this is my first post. I’m still amazed at how many folks seem to go off on tangents with little known history, symbolism, and occasionally, even numerology. It’s my strong opinion that the finder will eventually be the person that found the starting point WWWH and did not “over think” anything in the poem. It’s been mentioned over and over again that:
    • He said “kids may have an advantage in the search” during a Q&A session.
    • “Start at the beginning.”
    • “Don’t mess with my poem.”
    • “It will lead to treasure if you know where to start.”
    • “Clues are in consecutive order.”
    • “There are nine clues in the poem.”
    • “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental.”
    • “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”

    • Kevin,
      I agree.
      The first year I worked on this poem I was digging deep into history and some science subjects.
      I had lots of notes and such.
      I came back from a BOTG
      And trashed them!!!
      Took a few weeks off and regrouped with the poem and my WWWH.
      Refreshing to start over.
      I loved looking the history up and loved the stories and research I was finding.
      But, chasing those rabbits while entertaining were keeping me off the poem.
      This chase is a blast.
      Clearly Clueless

    • Kevin,

      I agree with what you said, “It’s my strong opinion that the finder will eventually be the person that found the starting point WWWH and did not “over think” anything in the poem.” I believe that F said something to the effect that the poem is straight forward and that it is in plain English.

      No matter how one perceives the poem if they don’t have the correct starting, hoB and the Blaze the solutions will always fail. We know that searchers have been very close and have the correct wwwh and the hoB, but then don’t know the Blaze.

      In order to get as far as hoB it is done using plain English as used at the present understanding of word usage, instead of the history of a word. I look at it this way, if the poem is used in normal conversation the words that first come to mind more than likely will be correct. The poem must be married to current maps, not historical maps. I believe over complicating words IMO will not work, because it then requires specialized knowledge, which most people may not understand or people without a complete education or no education. The Chase is not just for only the educated or with higher degrees, its for everyone with a even chance. Just plain English!

      All is IMHO.

      Sorry Dal, this should have been under the Poem thread.

      • IMHO, the word “blaze” doesn’t deserve capitalization.

        Are my concerns too nARROWly focused? Should I BRANCH out?

    • Kevin, I think everyone would agree that the correct starting place must be found. It’s how they go about finding that starting spot. IMO, finding the correct starting point will not be in solving the clues but rather in solving the poem and getting the final spot first. Then where to start will be obvious.
      IMO, it is impossible to solve some of the clues. They must be found. wwwh, blaze, the two clues that we know of for sure cannot be solved, so, they must be found. Since one of those clues is the first, the starting point, then it just makes sense that a searcher must find out where he/she is going first, then can find where to start. Like f has said, “you need to find out”, in reference to the starting point. Solving for those two clues, no matter how it looks like the solve fits, in the end, is just a guess. They cannot be solved, f has not given out the info to solve for them. It’s like solving for when he actually hid the treasure. I can come up with dates and make it sound so right, but in the end, f has not shared that info, so it would still, no matter how correct it may sound, be just a guess. And there is no room for guessing.
      So I agree with what you are saying, wwwh must be found, since it cannot be solved for.(Goes for the blaze and hoB also).
      The only thing I would correct in your statement would be. “• “It will lead to treasure if you know where to start.”
      Searchers knew where they were going to start, and started at the correct place, they just didn’t know it, and it didn’t lead to treasure. You can have the correct starting spot and still walk passed the treasure spot. This would lead to the thinking that later clues can be solved and understood. Does not mean to start trying to solve later clues first, it means that you need to solve the entire poem first. If a later clue was say 100′, or North, they make no sense in the solve. From where, right? So just having the correct starting point does not mean it will lead you to the treasure, but it gives that opportunity.

      • Charlie;

        You and I have disagreed on this point before, and probably will disagree on it again.

        For me, the poem DOES give you the information needed to finf (and solve) for the correct location of WWWH. It is hidden “In the wood” – if you can solve this one, you can solve for wwwh, and then solve the rest of the poem. Good luck Charlie. The clock is ticking, and I know what time it is – 🙂 – JDA

      • Charlie,

        Mr Fenn has given out those details, they are in the poem wwwh, hob and the blaze, for you to say that he hasn’t is incorrect as Mr Fenn has always stated that all you need is the poem and a good map………………..it finishes this search season imo!

        • * * * * Butch opined – “. . . it finishes this search season imo!” * * * *

          Very possibly in an actual wildfire blaze, the way the summer’s going so far. 😉

          Jake

  27. FYI, Denverpost.com has comprehensive updates on the Colorado wildfires and a map showing active fire locations and all the 2018 inactive fire perimeters.

  28. Lugnutz and many others have discussed at length the nature of hints and how they differ from clues etc. etc. etc. Also much time is spent working to see hints in the TToTC.

    I would like to point out something relative to Forrest Fenn’s comments on this subject.

    – he says they are there, a couple good ones and others that “lie out on the edges.”
    – that they aren’t particularly organized and certainly not in any order that matches the poem.
    But here are the powerful combo quotes:

    “There are some subtle hints in the text of the book that will help you with the clues.”
    The context of this question is; “Does the book give me anymore information than I would get from the poem.”

    Forrest is stating clearly here that the “hints [are] in the TEXT.”

    Further but less direct evidence of TEXT ONLY hints is this quote from Forrest;

    Someone asked Forrest a specific question regarding the hints in TToTC and all the stamp marks in the book; to which Forrest basically says, here are hints in my book but looking at every noun and every little picture is a rabbit hole that leads one chasing ones own tail…

    Please don’t give me too much abuse for this post and realize I’m not being an absolutist about this (perhaps there is something in the pictures or stamps which might help) but Forrest has not said so BUT he has specifically called out the TEXT!

    GCG

    • the phrase “look quickly down your quest to cease” indicates direction to me: the blaze would have to be high; then west to east; it may be the way the sun creates a shadow on some canyon wall. Fenn is a crossword player and likes to give hints based on word plays. I believe the big hint in TFTWT is the picture on the cover- it shows a shadow that appears to go west to east.

        • It goes diagonally, using a N/S compasslike orientaion on the picture, the shadow actually starts in the SW corner and goes NE. Use your imagination, that’s what it’s all about!

  29. This message goes out to SeanNM,

    Sean, you made the assertion during the last After Hours Party (Flipside presentation) which you qualified by saying it might upset some people in the search community.

    Anyway it was the comment regarding Fenn knowing the place he wanted to hide the treasure from the get go BUT in your estimation he did NOT have the EXACT spot identified prior to going to hid it in the special location. In other words the location was special to Forrest but not necessarily the exact spot.

    Well, I might agree with half of this thought. Its possible that the exact spot where the treasure is located was not particularly special to Forrest relative of his love of the place in general however its ironic that the other part of your assertion has been asked previously by a Shaun (and I know you know this quote because you state the second half all the time but neglect the first half).

    Question posted 5/27/2014:
    Forrest, When creating the hunt, was there any serendipity involved? Did you find that things just clicked together somehow? ~ Shaun

    “Shaun, Serendipity: An aptitude for making desirable discoveries by accident.
    The word carries several connotations Shaun, and I don’t think it works for me in the context you mentioned. Playing a hunch is nearly always fraught with disappointment, especially if the stakes are high. A searcher who guesses through life is destined to carry a thin wallet.f”

    This being the case I do NOT believe Forrest figured out the exact hiding spot once he got to his special place. He has said previously that he tried to think of everything and that he has planned very few things in his life but this one was an exception. Therefore I don’t think he relied on any amount of serendipity on the way to hide the treasure – he had a very specific plan, containing deliberate actions and a deliberate spot…

    What do you think? Is this line of logic and reasoning convincing to you?

    GCG

  30. For those looking for additional insight into what Forrest might mean by “close proximaty” (sic), there is this to consider from SB 184:

    “So now it was Forrest’s turn to shoot and he put a small rock down the barrel and shot at the fence. “When the powder ignited our close proximity went black with smoke that chased my wife into the house. You are not going to believe this, but that little pebble came out of the barrel in pieces, and each one was impaled in my fence. There must have been 6 or 7 pieces. Jerry and I talked about that for a long time and considered telling the Army about our newly discovered secret weapon.”

    • Let’s not forget these two also;
      2/3/2013 “And in close proximity were stone projectiles and crudely made hand axes that could have been 30,000 years old. I was looking at conflicts piled on top of conflicts.”
      5/8/2015 ” Each close proximity is different, relative, and site specific, as you pointed out.”

    • I think that is so cool, it is so rewarding to find any kind of treasure man made or natural, while out in nature. It is even better when people share the story of their find. Thanks!

  31. Well, I put new tires on my old truck last week. This week I got my oil changed and had a quick check of the important parts underneath. I’m pretty much all set for my adventure out west. It’ll be a long drive from Ohio all by myself. If I’ve done my homework right, it’ll be worth it. I’ve planned to spend the nights in Walmart parking lots on the way out. I am guessing it’ll take more than 20 hours to get to the area I plan to search. Just a few more weeks to go… I’m starting to get a little excited!!

    TimM

  32. What state you off to TimM? Good luck and stay safe,
    p.s Do you search alone?

    • Butch,

      I won’t say what state I’m headed to… but I’ll exclude Montana. Lol

      TimM

    • I will be searching alone. My wife couldn’t get time off from work for the same week. So, it’s either go alone or not go at all.

      TimM

      • TimM, it’s not advisable to hike alone. Even though the place may not
        be conducive to getting lost, a solo hiker probably wouldn’t want to twist an ankle. Please walk very slowly and carefully, and bring a hiking staff or equivalent. Good luck. All IMO.

  33. Howdy Folks, I’ve been lurking for a while. The good news is I’ve been able to reduce the search are to only four states! Three of them are wrong. Did Fenn ever say Brown was/is a living thing?

    • Welcome back – Hope your Hiatus was profitable to you in one way or another. – JDA

    • Bob! Good to see ya, bubba!

      The closest I know of was when Jennifer London asked him (twice) “who’s Brown?” and he said, “Well that’s for you to find . . . heh . . . if I told you that you’d go right to the chest.”

      But that bit of the interview sounds like real time unscripted give-and-take, so I myself don’t take his response as necessarily confirming that Brown is/was a WHO (as opposed to a what, or a huh?).

      (btw, three wrong? I still have the treasure absolutely positively no-doubt-about-it in two different states, so you’re a good full step ahead a me there.) 😉

      Jake

      • Jake- a little help for ya buddy….Brown is a who bird. once you figure that out you can go right to it.

        i think.

      • I somewhat disagree with that statement. It still will take some searching to find what you’re after, even after HOB found.

  34. The search is ON!

    Santa Fe National Forest opens Monday, July 9
    SANTA FE, NM – July 7, 2018 – For Immediate Release. Due to several days of higher humidity and rain, the Santa Fe National Forest (SFNF) will lift the closure order and stage 2 fire restrictions on Monday, July 9 at 8:00 a.m. for the first time since entering full forest closure on June 1.

  35. Dal,
    Just a quick update, no chest just yet.

    Decided to pop out west and try my first complete solve after 3 years of work. Think I have the first six clues
    – most not mentioned here. Just headed back into the “no wireless zone” . Best wishes to all searchers.

    ~Wisconsin Mike

  36. I’ve been working on the poem for about three months. I still don’t have enough confidence to make the trip, but I’m consumed by the “riddle”
    Has anyone ever considered some literal interpretations?
    Such as “take it in the” = tithe=1/10 or 110 degrees
    “Not far, but too far to”=44.2 degrees
    “So why is it”= WY
    “Put in below the”= then
    I get completely stumped on “that I must go but leave my” and “there’ll be no”
    Just wondering if I am rehashing old ground here.
    In thIs scenario the blaze is uncovering the path in the poem, so the last two stanzas come into play as the final clues. Look quickly down means scroll down in the poem to find the exact spot.

    • Wayne,
      Welcome to the chase, and to being consumed by the “riddle”. With that approach you’re in the minority on this blog, but there are a few of us. My suggestion is that you might benefit from looking for information in the poem that is more specific (eg it’s been suggested that “so why” is Wyoming, West Yellowstone, southwest, south at the Y, none of which I consider to be very specific). When it’s not specific enough look for redundancies, such as if two lines say the same thing but in different ways. Enjoy your search.

    • zaphod, Panny, Wayne,
      Are you aware that the phrase, “Look quickly down” appears FF’s Scrapbook 117.5?

      FF was talking about “Ancient Leftovers” in Scrapbook #117. He discusses Mammoths that roamed the Americas. He said they found a mammoth tooth with the enamel plates broken apart. He also found a tusk. FF said “The mammoth tusk weighed 70 lbs when we lifted it into the bed of the pickup. Over the years it has dried and crumbled into a sad semblance of what it used to be.”

      In Scrapboook #117.5, Dal posted a shadowbox that a couple of people had made using the original post about the mammoth, the piece of tusk they’d recieved from FF and a handwritten note by FF that came with the piece of tusk. There is a piece of tusk dangling from a cord at the bottom of the frame. The text under the note in the shadow box reads: “Look quickly down, there is a chunk below you are welcome to touch.”

      I wonder if anyone knows whether that note in the shadow box stating “Look quickly down” was written by FF or by the people who assembled the shadow box? Maybe Dal knows? If it was written by FF himself, then it seems it may be a hint as to his original meaning of “Look quickly down”

      • Hi Flutterby:

        “Are you aware that the phrase, “Look quickly down” appears FF’s Scrapbook 117.5?”

        Yep, I remember it, but thank you for the reminder.

        “The text under the note in the shadow box reads: ‘Look quickly down, there is a chunk below you are welcome to touch.’ I wonder if anyone knows whether that note in the shadow box stating “Look quickly down” was written by FF or by the people who assembled the shadow box? Maybe Dal knows?”

        I’m betting Fenn typed it on the same note as his hand-written note to Chuck & Terry. It’s hard to tell for sure in the picture, but the fact that the type-written portion is exactly the same width as the note is pretty compelling evidence.

        Now, I doubt when Fenn typed that note that he could have known how the small mammoth chunk would be displayed, so it seems likely to me that the “look quickly down” was in reference to the chunk’s location in the package that Fenn sent. Perhaps Dal knows, or can ask Chuck or Terry about how the chunk was packaged.

        Just as with “close proximity/proximaty,” the distance of “look quickly down” is likely to be context-specific. But it sure seems (from this example) that the distance from the blaze to the treasure could be negligible.

    • Hello Wayne…
      I think you are spot on with the poem being a riddle.

      Clearly Clueless

    • McB is coming from the UK, I believe, so he may not have regular internet access. TB appears to have gone.

      • McB lives in Brazil, and has had no problem communicating in the past. He may have just decided to become a “Lurker” for a while – We all need a break some time. Travis??? Embarrassment may have caused him to become a lurker as well – Who knows? – JDA

    • McB is in brazil and has informed me that he will not be posting on here anymore for reasons I am unaware of as he would not discuss it with me.
      Just letting you guys know.

    • Hi Lady V: if McB actually made the journey, it was from Brazil. His two-week silence certainly suggests he may have flown north.

      • The sherif busted his knee moving the Deputy into her new diggins near minnehaha falls in Minnesota . Had surgery at Mayo and is supposed to me non-weight bearing for three months. I guess I’ll be playing canasta for a bit.

        Best regards to all

        1 F Billy

      • LOL!! Zap, I think folks concern about KC & McB, while commendable, is misplaced.

        June 29, 2018 – Kettle Corn: My search area is in Montana. I just spent 9 days literally cross pathing back and forth up and down. Even in water looking for rock ledges. I turned it over like non other. I will send FF my search area and am sure to get no response. Two locations he mentions and even illustrates in the TOTC we stayed at and talked with people who he has mentioned by name on several occasions in all 3 Books, And stayed in a cabin near my search area.

        I am With John Brown I do not feel the Chest will be recovered this summer!

        (Zap, ya can find KC’s comment at the place that shant be mentioned – do amenber search and view all posts – it’s the first one in line)

        Oh, as of today there is a new searcher @ THOR -> M.c.B. 🙂

        (don’t tell my opthamologist I was here, not supposed to be on this dang machine for a couple of weeks…..but, I’m having withdrawal pains!!! lol 🙂

        • Hi Loci: KC is in the right state, IMHO, but that’s pretty much the extent of what he’s got right. Don’t know what to say about McB: did he get nuked? Goofy sure has been silent thus year; maybe he needed to test the nuke button to confirm it still worked.

          Else, it’s hard to explain McB’s prolific posting here to be suddenly replaced by silence and posting on another blog.

        • I agree, Loco. In terms of visibility, we come and we go. I don’t know about KC but McB is fine and continuing to research and explore ideas with others. I believe that the Facebook format/groups may be more welcoming to his style of communication, questioning, and learning. He likes to talk about ideas and he has a lot of them! I think he brings a unique perspective to any group that he participates in.

        • That’s too bad for McB. Maybe he thought no one was listening. Not everyone comments all the time but we listen.

          • I like McB, we agree on some methods. I too can see why he left us. I have a defense against harsh criticism as was taught to me by a very wise man.

            Let the whirling dervish whirl

  37. Does anyone know if there has ever been a paddle wheel for a lumber mill on Taylor creek / Taylor fork. I know there was a mill and a small community near Eldridge creek where the forest service cabin is. I am looking to see if anyone has knowledge of a mill and wheel on that creek. Thanks in advance.

    • Randy,
      I am one of the few here that have checked that creek since 2016.
      I can email you if you would like to keep it offline.

    • Randy: I was going to suggest Jake would be a good one to ask — he’s spent a lot of time in that area.

    • We should discuss it here:
      https://dalneitzel.com/2015/12/30/paddle01/
      There’ll be no paddle up your creek… Page

      Taylor Creek has a lot to offer after following the clues.
      I can tell you, I did not find any remnants of a paddle wheel up Taylor but someone on this blog years back did find such up Lightning creek.

      There was a spill dam on Taylor & a flume for logging the stretched for miles.
      Here is a video of the dam remnants I kept private for a while.
      24 secs in you see what’s left of the dam.
      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wCM2skuMmnk

      If there was a dam, flume & community, there probably was a paddle.

  38. Here a thing about trout, fish and Yellowstone perhaps Forrest would find interesting,
    but
    Here it doesn’t belong, not on appropriate page
    but
    please, Dal, pass this on to ff if you agree in interest before you remove my comment. Or, others here might be interested; or, if an appropriate place you might move it there.

    NOTHING about chasing treasured adventures.
    https://www.nationalgeographic.com/environment/2018/07/yellowstone-lake-trout-trumpeter-swan-avian-collapse-animals/

    Thank you for consideration. You are so kindly approachable.

  39. Hi all. I just want to get some feedback on the way to find the treasure. It looks as though most people are solving the poem by finding their WWWH, going down some sort of canyon, not far, then finding HOB, then following the poem in order by walking or perhaps driving from clue to clue. For those following this method, can you tell me why and perhaps where Mr Fenn directs you to do this? I am not saying that is the wrong method, but curious as to why people follow the poem like that.
    Thanks in advance.

    • John R.,
      That is a good question! I personally think it’s the wrong method, but that is just my opinion.

    • It is just simply the most prominent method on this forum.
      There are some very strong personalities here and over time new people have gone along.

      To me the approach is baseless. The only reason to read the poem like it’s a set of directions is because you are taking the poem at literal face value and failing to be creative at all. Every other way of looking at the poem involves imagination, not this one.

      No one should be looking for a treasure. Chasers should be solving the clues. I made the mistake of searching. To quote Yoda:

      Do or do not, there is no try.

      Lugnutz

      • Lugnutz: I agree with you in at least one respect: it requires imagination and cleverness to solve WWWH. “Throwing a dart” will not work. But in my opinion, the poem does describe multiple waypoints: WWWH, the canyon down, home of Brown and the blaze are all distinct from one another and not co-located.

        • Zap

          In my opinion you are skipping a step.

          Solve the clue.
          Then marry to the map.

          Your solve is the location.

          Lugnutz

    • For me there is no reason to stomp or drive trying to solve the poem. What is wrong with just using a map to follow the path of the poem? As far as I can see there is no problem using a map. Although being familiar with an area helps greatly. I would even venture a guess that locals near the area and are familiar with the area would more than likely have the TC right under their noses and not know it, because they might not be using a map.

      Using theory through maps and then in practice, along with a little knowledge of the area of search more than likely may be productive. Coming up with the solve more than likely will not need specialized knowledge relating to the words in the poem, except for “tarry scant”

      Of course there will be some that disagree and feel stomping out the clues with botg is the best way to go. I guess we shall see when all is said and done when the TC is found and the solve is shared.

      I’m just yammering, but then again……..

      • CharlieM;

        Up until recently I had thought that 8 of the 9 clues could be solved from home – at the computer using Google Earth.

        I now believe that there are clues for No Paddle Up Your Creek, Heavy Loads, Water High and the Blaze that can only be found with BotG.

        Although I can use other means to determine NPUYC, HL, WH and the location of Indulgence without these BotG clues, I believe that these BotG clues will be the thing that will cause one to slap their forehead and proclaim, “Now why didn’t I think of that.”

        I MAY be wrong, but I think not. Just waiting to prove myself right or wrong sometime before Fall – We shall see – JDA

    • * * * * John R wondered – “It looks as though most people are solving the poem by finding their WWWH, going . . . , finding HOB, . . . then following the poem in order . . . walking or driving from clue to clue.
      For those following this method, can you tell me why and perhaps where Mr Fenn directs you to do this?”
      “I am not saying that is the wrong method, but curious as to why people follow the poem like that.” * * * *

      Hey-O John –

      I’m not saying it’s the right method, but no real mystery – ff’s words introducing the poem in the book explain why people follow it that way right off the bat –

      “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure”

      ff used that word “followed”, for one, which you also used three times in your question. There are more than a few other strong ff comments along the same general “the poem is a map that will lead you if you follow it” line of attack. Some other folks will surely supply some of them (or I might trot a few more out if the discussion continues).

      I’m not a competitive searcher myself (when I do search, I search because I’m out there anyway, taking it all in). I do like the poem game, and I’m really really fond of the playing field.

      To be a bit hyperbolic about it, I think the “poem-and-map” line is a far more likely scenario than that ff somehow created an intricate “Da Vinci Code”-type interlocking puzzle world, or a Spiel des Jahres award-winning game design.

      Unlike the Da Vinci Code or a Reiner Knizia game (or even a basic treasure hunt), the Chase provides no verifiable feedback, positive or negative. So in that sense too it behaves more like an orienteering exercise combined with a word puzzle – a poem and a map.

      But the idea that somehow the words will suddenly fall into place and slap me upside the head and all the angels will sing . . . that’d be alright too. 😉

      Jake

      • John R;

        Here is another: ““Only the nine clues, in consecutive order, in the Poem, when understood and followed, leads a person precisely to the chest…” f Hope this helps – JDA

      • “Stop arm-chairing that thing to death and get out in the trees where the box is, but before you go, look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you *follow* its directions.” May 4 2017
        I like this long sentence with all the commas…

        • Ken;

          I wish I could – awaiting my search team members. Summer, and people have a lot to do. Hopefully soon – JDA

        • He hit that map theme hard and often last year in the pre-season.

          April 5 2017
          “I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure.” f

          • I like this one a lot…even so…some folks still question “place names” and/or their relevance. Further…this comment from Fenn seems to strongly support that the clues are indeed “individual” as a referenced location…to be *followed*…like a map. Stomp, stomp…

          • I like this one too Ken.

            I think that the “Place Names” have a lot to do with the final solve – Kinda like road signs. And yes, each “Place” has its own “Individual” way of being marked. And, Yes, one must “Follow” these road signs one after the other – can’t get from Albuquerque to Los Angeles without going through Flagstaff – so to speak. – JMO – JDA

          • 8/23/2011; “One man asked if he should buy a topographic map and I told him he would be better served reading the book again(TTOTC). All you have to do is think about the nine clues and *follow* them in order….”
            “You’re going to have to figure out the clues. Go to the first clue, and then the clues are consecutive after that.” stomp, stomp….
            “The treasure will be found by someone who *followed* the clues to the location. To me, that is the only plausible recipe.” stomp, stomp….

          • JDA…you misunderstand. This response from Fenn was in reference to whether toponymy or geography was more important. Fenn had to look up toponymy(place names). I think that rules place names out…

          • Toponymy is the study of place names, their origins , meanings, use. You dont need to STUDY the place names, just find them on the map. Find the 5 places in the poem, plot them on a map and see what shape they make. X marks the spot.
            Only the shadow knows.
            All IMO.

    • I think because we make things work where/how we answer the first clue. We look for a canyon down. For some, it’s a big canyon requiring a long bit of travel by car to the next clue. For some the next clue may be 10 ft from the last clue and they can walk it. Interesting thing to me is that we all have the same map, and we are all using a different part of it.

    • Don’t do what other searchers do. They haven’t found the treasure chest.
      Think for yourself. Use a dictionary. Learn about safety in the wilderness
      before entering it. Don’t hike alone. All my opinion.

      • Tighterfocus: I don’t know why you (and others) keep advising searchers to go to a dictionary. Forrest NEVER has recommended this course of action. If you have to look something up in a dictionary — guess what? It’s specialized knowledge.

        • Zap

          Because Fenn said he looked up meanings of words whilst composing the poem.

          If you ever decide to email me and share your ideas I will give you an example of how looking up meanings is useful.

          There is a word that is key. It is not a keyword.

        • But Lug, you’ve been a strong proponent of strictly following what Forrest says and not reading between the lines or allowing for partial truths. (For instance, I believe in the past you’ve pointed out that Forrest said there are subtle hints in the TEXT of TTOTC, but because he says nothing about hints in the pictures or the illustrations that it must mean there can only be hints in the text.) Yet here, Forrest says *HE* looked up the meanings of words in the dictionary, and you are making an inference that we must do the same. If a dictionary is critical to unraveling the clues in the poem, why didn’t Forrest include it in his short list of three “excellent research materials”?

          • Zap

            I didn’t mention the text quote, but I don’t believe there are clues in the images. I don’t believe F was involved at the level needed to secret the clues.

            I’m saying I don’t think you should tell chasers they can’t look up words.

            I’m not a proponent of taking F literally. He doesn’t even take himself literally.

            Lugnutz

          • Hi Lug: okay, maybe it was Seeker who was insistent that the failure to.mention anything but the text of TTOTC as a source of hints precluded hints in other graphical elements of the book. I’m confident Forrest either directed Alan to include certain innocuous elements of some of the illustrations, or he made the changes himself afterward. Perhaps it was also Seeker that objected to the logical possibility that “most of the places the clues refer to” potentially meaning ALL of the places the clues refer to. Yes, “most” suggests at least one place did not exist when Forrest was a kid, but from a strict symbolic logic standpoint, most includes “all” as a possibility.

        • Actually Zaphod,
          FF has talked about looking up words in the dictionary.

          In talking about the clues being contiguous, FF said, “FF: “They’re contiguous. I knew where I wanted to hide the treasure chest, so it was easy for me to put one foot down and then step on it to get to the next foot. That’s what I did. I changed it over, I don’t know how many times. I LOOKED UP THE MEANING OF WORDS. YOU KNOW, WE REALLY DON’T KNOW WAHT SOME OF OUR WORDS MEAN.”

          Scrapbook #73 “The two acres surrounding our home are covered with beautiful bluish-purple flowers. My wife says they’re weeds, and I don’t understand why. Who gets to decide what’s a weed and what’s a flower? Some things that seem simple to me can be so complicated for others. I THINK WE SHOULD TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT OUR DEFINITIONS. If it’s pretty, why would anyone call it a weed? That’s a derogatory term. Besides, weeds grow much faster than flowers and that’s a plus for us gardeners. I wonder if our nursery sells weed seeds.”

          In TTOTC, FF talks about meanings of words more than once. On p 47, his boss drove by in a yellow Cadillac and rolled down
          the window and yelled, “You’re canned.” that’s all he said as he drove away! . . . I didn’t really know what “canned” meant but guessed it must be something good. . . mother told me I’d been fired”.

          So anybody who doesn’t think that looking up definitions of words to remind us of alternate meanings, is ignoring the strong hints from FF in my opinion. I don’t think its special knowlege. Its a way to remember some of the less common meanings of words we already know.

          • Flutterby: I’m aware of all these examples. It’s just at no point does Forrest ever explicitly advise *us* to look up words in a dictionary as part of our poem decipherment task. If a dictionary is essential, why wouldn’t he just include it in his “excellent resource” list? It’s not like it would be a huge clue to anyone — seems like everyone’s looking in dictionaries anyway.

            I noticed you did forget to include a counterexample in your tally:

            “I never thought I had to believe everything I said and if I had to look up a word I just wouldn’t use it.” –TTOTC pg. 14.

            If people want to consult a dictionary and/or a thesaurus, by all means have at it. I just question if some critical clue is hiding in an obscure or obsolete word definition, does Joe Sixpack really have much of a chance?

  40. Just sharing this really cool website I found. Forgive me if you all know about it already. americansouthwest.net click on your state and then the map. It gives info on geologic features, canyons, etc. Although for some reason it leaves out Montana.

  41. Hi All: here’s an amusing coincidence found in the first three lines of the poem. Just list the 2nd, 3rd and 4th letters of those lines:

    S I H
    N D W
    C A N

    Remove the final N and descramble: SANDWICH. 😉

    • Hmmm, so SANDWICH has gone alone in there 🙂

      All kidding aside, does anyone think that going “in there” at night is part of a “correct” solution? A flashlight would be handy to have under such a scenario 😉

      • ATT…
        If I remember correctly the flash light comment was clarified by Forrest. These guys know where to find the quote but if I remember correctly he said it would come in handy if you get lost out there in the woods! IMO it was for safety purposes but it could come in handy if it’s in a dark place! I carry 2…and extra batteries! I don’t know if FF would want you out there in the dark with all the Bears and wildlife coming out at that time. My solve doesn’t include needing one but what do I know??? Good luck and stay SAFE! 🙂

        • DB,

          Thanks. I can promise I won’t be going into my location at night…I’m not that brave! I think it’s very findable during the day.

          I’ve wondered, however, if a nighttime arrival at the “general” location might be (somehow) part of the original design blueprint, leading to a very precise location revelation. That curiosity is not based on his sandwich and a flashlight comment, but rather, upon the VERY prominent night theme that runs throughout TToTC. It is heavily represented in both the text and illustrations throughout the book and it is THE most prominent setting for much of his time spent ALONE.

          I won’t make an exhaustive list here, but the instances of threshold/insightful moments in his life that occurred when he was alone at night are substantially numerous. It’s very thematic of his memoir(s).

          • J A Kraven *see At the Top comment above, email me if you don’t catch how this might connect to my solve.

            Good connection, AtT!

          • Notwithstanding the night references in TToTC, here are some (possible) references to night from the poem itself:

            As I have gone alone in there..(alone in the night),
            it’s no place for the meek,
            the end is ever drawing nigh (midnight maybe??),
            …if you’ve been wise and found the blaze (wise – like an owl (nocturnal))
            look quickly down (quickly – can mean “glowing”)
            worth the cold (gets cold at night, especially up north)
            if you are brave and in the wood (TToTC quote: “It took guts to go in there when it was dark with no moon.”)

          • top- the night references are to the museum* where light and temperature levels are controlled to preserve artifacts.

            *Draper museum of natural history
            I think.

    • Zap – you are hereby named the new Will Shortz honorary puzzle master of HOD. I’m a sustaining member of KSUT and I want to play….but stegonography attempts have eluded me. Is this how you determined your WWWH?

      • Hi Sandy — thanks for playing along. 😉 In my estimation, Forrest’s stego is simpler than this tongue-in-cheek example, yet harder than Masquerade’s. If the stego had been too easy, I think WWWH would be a pretty crowded place, and three states would disappear from Forrest’s TFTW map.

        But to answer your question, no — this isn’t how I determined WWWH. IMO, WWWH is a riddle solution; steganography provides the keyword that specifies the starting point.

    • Zap

      I am happy to see you recognize something as coincidence.

      Did Fenn ever mention snadwich? Can you site it?

      • Hey Lug…Fenn has mentioned sandwich multiple times. Check Tarry Scant and TTOTC for references. He denies that “sandwich” is a clue, as we all know. I think Zap is showing us his method…and coincidentally using your hot button LOL.

        • Sandy –

          sure Fenn talks about pimento sandwiches.
          I have never seen the famous; Take a Flashlight and a Sandwich sited.

          And if it was said by Fenn, Sap would have it somewhere.

          • One of my earlier ideas about the “flashlight and sandwich” fiasco came about while reading my list of characters that Fenn has mentioned over the years. This was a few years ago…so it is a bit hazy exactly how I came up with it. There seemed to be(to me) a fair amount of comments about characters being scapegoats or them getting into sticky situations and how they faired after-the-fact. Brian Joyce, Valerie Plame, Skippy, the list is long…another being John Ehrlichman.
            A lot of talk over the years about golf as well…and I remembered the Nixon era…Watergate scandal. The original plan that Ehrlichman helped concoct was codenamed….”Operation Sandwedge”…put that with the flashlights that were seen in the Watergate Complex when they broke in….yeah…funny how knowing stuff can mess with the mind….

          • ken- all the golf stuff is reference to the Bunker Sands photography gallery located inside the buffalo Bill Center of the West.

            I think.

      • Colo –

        I mean that I have never seen the original quote where Fenn allegedly says The a a sandwich and a flashlight.

        Did the whole idea just originate on Mountain Walking?

        Lug

        • It was a Q&A… Something about the need for tools.

          I don’t recall where or when the question was asked, but it was a few years ago.

          • I have it somewhere…even though most everything else went in the circular file. Maybe Loco can come to the rescue.
            It came out when folks were speaking of what were necessary items and tools to bring on searches…early on.

        • Lug: I’ve seen no references earlier than Saunier’s 5-item list from over 6 years ago:

          June 19, 2012 by saunier

          When Forrest Fenn is feeling really, really good—to where his playfulness outruns his restraint, he will give additional clues about the location of his hidden treasure. Over the past year or so, I have become privy to some of these extra bits of information because that’s what we “sleuthy guys” do. I’ll give you five of them—by which I mean clues, not sleuthy guys.

          1. “It’s not in Nevada.” This is a response Forrest gave to a woman when she requested that he come out to Nevada to collect the treasure for her because she couldn’t manage it alone. It’s a reasonable answer to a somewhat sneaky request but it’s my belief that this is more than a well timed put down. It’s a real clue and, who knows, he might continue to name places where the treasure isn’t hidden and eventually things will get narrowed down to something manageable. For a long time my guess for the next area cut out of the running was “Virginia.”

          2. “It’s hidden over 300 miles west of Toledo.” Not long after the “It’s not in Nevada” thing, Forrest tossed this one out. As the crow flies, this clue puts the dividing line between where his treasure is and is not almost exactly in the middle of the Mississippi River. That’s good because not only is Virginia now not in play, it eliminates another dozen or so of those states I didn’t much want to go to anyway—not that there is anything wrong with them. It’s just that I would rather go north and west as opposed to north and east and Ohio obviously doesn’t match up to those places that have elevation changes of say…more than a hundred and five feet . . . and rivers that don’t catch fire.

          3. “Take a sandwich.” When I first heard this clue I said to myself, “This is really going to be easy. You get up in the morning, have breakfast, go out looking, find the treasure, eat your sandwich and you are back by dinner.” Not the case. “Sir Conan” Dal (lummifilm.wordpress.com) almost always takes a sandwich and he is still out there looking. Nevertheless, this one remains a good clue because of what it doesn’t say. For example, it doesn’t say, “Take a tent, a bedroll, a change of socks and food for eight days.” It’s a sandwich—just a sandwich although you might want to consider taking pepper-spray along if your sandwich resembles a freshly made Egg-McMuffin™ and you are taking it into bear country. Bears love Egg-McMuffins™ as well as Southern Baptists and Young Republicans.

          4. “Take a flashlight.” I don’t have much to say about this one because, for me, any time a flashlight is involved things get scary. It’s because I had a couple of aunts not much older than me who loved to scare the crap out of little kids and they did it with flashlights in dark cellars. In any case, this “clue” could give new meaning to the very first line in Forrest Fenn’s poem: “As I have gone alone in there…” Does that mean a cave? A tunnel? A haunted house? Or it could be that “…in there…” isn’t a clue at all and the treasure is hidden in a dark recess where a flashlight would be needed even if you didn’t have to “go into” anything. But then maybe he just wants us to see where we’re going after dark even if we have no idea of where it is we’re going.

          5. “If you had its coordinates, you would be able to find the treasure.” This ‘extra’ clue could be a game changer except . . . well, you know . . . it’s probably not. Still, like all of you who already knew of this clue, I immediately set off on a search of Forrest’s entire Memoir for numbers (as well as to REI in search of a new GPS.)

    • interesting…since four corners of lines 2-3 and 3-4 of first stanza spell “idea,” just like 4 corners of poem…

    • If it amused one entity, the coincidence was amusing.
      Thanks for sharing; now I can go back to watching paint dry. IMO.

  42. There once was man, named Forrest Fenn,
    He told us in a poem, as to where to begin.
    We all took him for his word, and as an honorable man,
    And thus our futile search, had finally began!

    Yes we all looked him up, and then stared him down,
    We asked ourselves, “Does he think I’m some clown”?
    So for hundreds of hours, we spent much our time,
    Trying to solve Forrest Fenn’s Poem, but it’s almost a crime!

    Look at that chest, and look at that Gold,
    Holy Cow said Harry Carey, it’s a sight to behold!
    With just 24 lines, and nine simple clues,
    This is too easy, how can I lose?

    So we halted and walked, and looked for the Brown,
    Pulled out our maps, and started to frown.
    Jack be nimble, Jack be quick,
    Jack and Jill, this is making me SICK!

    So we go buy his book, called “The Thrill Of The Chase”,
    Looking for clues, to Fenn’s hidey place!
    We read it and read it, and try to decode,
    Wow there Mr. Fenn, my head’s gonna explode!

    So we find our Brown, and reference Fenn’s Meek,
    Are you kidding me Fenn, I’m just a Geek!
    Lions & Tigers & Bears OH MY!
    Then the BOTG, put some FEAR IN MY EYE!

    What’s this all about, the end is ever drawing nigh?
    Man OH Man, am I going to die?
    So I looked to the left, and I looked to the right,
    I pulled out my bear spray, and was ready to fight.

    Then I paddled and paddled, up some silly creek,
    Looking for “heavy loads”, but it’s in my pants I think!
    After hours of hiking, I had to take a break,
    But what do you know, over there is a lake!

    Now things are looking up, but what is this “Blaze”?
    Maybe it’s up there, in the clouds and the haze.
    So up I went in the mud, snow, and cold,
    Looking intently, somewhat confident and bold.

    My long lost friend Blaze, where are you at?
    I slipped on the ice, and landed kersplat!
    This BOTG thing, is harder than I had planned,
    Just pay attention you fool, and watch where you land!

    So up and up, and up I go,
    Look over there, what do ya know.
    Is that the Blaze? It sure looks out of place,
    Is it an Omega, or is it Fenn’s face?

    My legs are so tired, my feet wet and cold,
    I looked quickly down, but no treasure bold?
    Indulgence, Indulgence, where are you at?
    Mr. Fenn this is Genius, I tip my hat!

    So hear me all, and listen good,
    I’m slipping and sliding, but where is the wood?
    I’m looking all over, and trying to be brave,
    But my confidence is fading, and starting to CAVE.

    What’s that over there, it looks magical in it’s simplicity,
    But the poem in a word, is full of complexity!
    Is this the end, and is this the cease?
    It certainly looks like, it’s “The place of Peace”.

    So I hurry and scurry, and get to that place,
    I did have a grin, but now a smile’s on my face!
    Where is it at, and where can it be,
    Come on Chief Joseph, please help me to see.

    Look over there, just 12 feet away,
    Oh my-my God, HIP-HIP HURRAY!!!
    My hands are sweating, and starting to shake,
    Then something goes boom, and then I awake!

    What’s going on here, was that a dream?
    The rainbow was beautiful, next to that stream.
    Maybe some day, we’ll find Forrest Fenn’s Chest,
    Hopefully my friend, before they’re laid to rest.

    So let’s squash the haters, and all the naysayers,
    Please keep Peggy and Forrest, firm in our prayers!
    Thank you Forrest Fenn, for The Thrill Of The Chase,
    Without your love and kindness, this wouldn’t have taken place.

    OK SEARCHERS, LET’S GET ‘ER DONE!
    GOOD LUCK, GOD BLESS, STAY SAFE, AND HAVE FUN!
    WITH BOTG, AND LUCK UP YOUR SEEVE,
    YOU JUST MAY ENJOY THE VIEW, AND NOT WANT TO LEAVE!

    Personal Note: “CAPS” = EMPHYSIS…. NOT YELLING! Also, I hate trying to overthink the comma thingy so please excuse me. English was not my strongest class in school because I could already speak it! Little did I know that some guy named Forrest Fenn would come along and redefine the meaning of Comma Chameleon…Gotta love that old fart, ya know it! 🙂 Thanks for the Chase Forrest…I have no regrets…just UNBELIEVABLE MEMORIES!!! Who knows Forrest, maybe there will be a knock on your door sooner than later! There’s heavy loads of great ideas out there, but there’s only 1 great solve…… 🙂 🙂 🙂 UDAMAN FF!!!

    • Awesome job Deano Bravo.
      I walked thru my solve while reading it.
      and yea, boom, i woke up!

      Thumbs up! 🙂

      • Thanks Smokybear…I’m sure it rings true for all of us, not just me. Good luck Smoky!

      • JDA, writing that poem was so much fun! It took me to a humble place because this chase is VERY humbling to say the least! Go get ‘er done JDA! 🙂

          • Clint; – I have not – Have not heard of anyone who has. Suspect that embarrassment may be the culprit here – who knows? – JDA

          • Clint, McB has spoken over on FB…Forrest Fenn’s treasure galore…and has said that Travis if ok, he gave a thumbs up to the Travis question from one of the searchers that was on Dal’s sight as well. So they are both fine and McB is still in his homeland analyzing. Travis, well, still chasing shadows but he’s fine. Hope that helps…

      • Oz10, Thanks! It was fun just putting everyone’s pain into words. I just figured we all have gone through something like this and can relate. Forrest has made us scratch our heads over and over again! Good Luck and stay safe!

      • Muset, Thanks…I’ve read it many times already and for what it’s worth, it is very relatable to each and every one of us. Kinda long but I was just trying to include much of our thoughts and feelings as well as the poem and clues. Kinda fun reading it if nothing else. Good Luck Muset! We win even if our solve for the day is a bust. 🙂 Great memories and the views along the way are inspiring to say the least….

  43. Odds and ends about hiking where there are bears:

    I just got home from a search. The weather was awesome and it was great to get out into the wilderness.

    For this trip I bought myself a Bose Soundlink Micro. I super-highly recommend this device for hikers. I hitched mine to my belt. The sound was like my living room and my search partner said he could here it from way far away, not in an annoying tinny way, but a nice-sounding low frequency way. It doesn’t require loud volume for the bass to travel a long way.

    It will keep the bears away.

  44. Why on earth would you (or any other critters w/in earshot) want the wilderness to sound like your living room?

    • Yeah…that’s dangerous. Everyone knows that bears love sitting in human living rooms enjoying a snack. Be careful inviting them in like. Wow.

      🙂

      • BAHAHAHA!!!! If it gets you there and back safely then what’s the problem? No harm, no foul…You’re killin me smalls!

        • BAHAHAHA??? I wish I’d said that.

          I wanna hear what your living room sounds like, I’ll drop by with a six-pack.

          Miley Cyrus scare elk? Hulk SMASH tiny noisebox.

          Try me.

          Seriously, if wildlife’s a safety concern, good to have your eyes AND your ears alert, there’s no guarantee Miley’ll “keep the bears away.” Yell every minute or so if you don’t have a good viewfield. Or ride a bulldozer.

          If wildlife’s not a safety concern, why risk attracting annoyed wilderness travelers who’ll wish you into the cornfield?

          Jake

  45. I have been thinking about that recent question and answer from FF regarding toponymy.
    “Dear Forrest, What’s more important in solving the search, a greater knowledge (“knowlege”) of Toponymy or Geography? ~Chris”
    “I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure. f”

    I really think that most people (possibly me included) are not thinking geographically. We look at place names and yet FF has stated that no special knowledge is required but that a comprehensive understanding of geography might help. Now he has said that toponymy won’t help. Or at least that is what I think he said. Does this mean place names won’t help us?

    I think that people are using too much freedom of interpretation with some of the phrases in the poem. One phrase that I have seen interpreted a million different ways is “No place for the meek”. I’ve heard folks suggest that it must be a scary place or a high place or any number of other things. But, I think FF meant it when he said the words mean exactly what they say. Of course most of us, I think, agree that he likes play on words so that complicates things a lot.

    Lets look at “No place for the meek”. Literally this could be anything. Unless you let the words themselves tell you what it is. I’m not saying I have the correct interpretation, but think I have an idea of how the words can mean what they say and yet mean something different from what we think they say. And, using the definition of the words can keep us from wild guesses that take us away from what the poem actually says.

    I firmly believe that the poem tells us that it is the sound of the words, that we should be listening to, which means that homophones (words that sound alike but have different meanings) can be used.

    Here is one example of how this one clause in the poem could mean exactly what it says and the words can tell us what it means rather than having us guess. I’m not saying I have the correct interpretation. I’m saying look at the way the word meanings can change the meaning of the clause or sentence.

    “No place for the meek”

    It seems to me that this clause is saying that we need something the opposite of meek. This is where the guessing comes in. But, what if we stick closer to known definitions, and homophones, especially those that relate to geography. I’ve been reading over geography terms and can see many that are synonyms of words in the poem which would create an entirely new meaning to the sentence or clause.

    In the case of “No place for the meek” I think antonyms come into play because if its no place for the meek, then it must be the opposite of meek (IMO). Here is one word that is an antonym of meek. The word is tough. If meek means compliant or flexible, then the opposite would be rigid or tough. Tough is not a geographical word as far as I know. But, the word TUFF is. So what if “no place for the meek” is telling us to look at the opposite of meek which might mean tough=tuff (homophone of tough).

    Now consider that the word “No” might be a homophone representing “know”. The word “place” has many meanings. One of them is “to place something”, “put into place” or “deposit”. So now we have two words in this phrase that are potentially geographical terms; deposit and tuff.

    What if “No place for the meek” means “Know deposit for the tuff” (know where tuff is deposited)

    I’m sure there are other options of interpretation for this phrase. But, I think we must stick to definitions, synonyms, and homophones (hear me all). In the case of “No place for the meek” I think the clause itself tells us that we are looking for the opposite of meek so in this statement, I think antonyms are fair game. The point being, that the words must mean what they say.

    • Those are great thoughts Flutterby. I do NOT think we can use place names (names of mountains, names of rivers, names of cities). Names can and may change over time. Forrest said he was thinking a hundred years or more ahead. So, yes, geography has to come into play when deciphering the clues.
      For example: I don’t think a clue will reference a tree, because that tree could be taken out by lightning, or fire. And then one of the clues would be gone.

      Forrrest really has us in a pickle!

      • I respect those of you that are searching only based on geography. That has to be a huge undertaking. I just can’t reconcile the idea that none of the clues reference place names with this Q & A:

        Hi,
        Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years?
        Thanks ~Ron

        Thanks Ron, thoughtful questions:
        The clues did not exist when I was a kid but MOST of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f

        I find it interesting that he says “but MOST of the places the clues refer to did.” That seems to imply to me one of two things: Either some natural geographical place came into existence during his 80 years that he is using for a clue, or the place existed on map but had not been given a name. I would reason that the most likely scenario is that a campground had been made and named, or a recreational area, etc.

        Geography (IMO) can change pretty rapidly, it is why we have ongoing maintenance at Mt. Rushmore. I agree that place names can also change fairly quickly and roads are moved/reconstructed. But in most cases a prior map will have existed that future generations can reference back to- meaning that in the least an old map will provide references to follow in the future, but a natural geographic change in 50 years to a rock face, might indeed hide the treasure forever. Just my thoughts and opinion.

        • Hello kk,

          Let me present a third implication for, “…MOST of the places the clues refer to did.”

          What if it means the answer(s) to one or more of the clues is in the book (TToTC)?

        • Hello kk,

          Let me offer a third implication for, “…MOST of the places the clues refer to did.”

          What if it means the answer(s) to one or more of the clues is in the book (TToTC)?

        • * * * * re – “but MOST of the places the clues refer to did (exist).” * * * *

          Two big potential examples that come immediately to mind –

          Quake Lake (below Hebgen Lake on the Madison); the earthquake was in 1959

          Flaming Gorge Reservoir, 1964

          There’s also a slim chance that one (or more) of “the places the clues refer to” NO LONGER existed when ff was a kid. So far I haven’t been able to come up with a good example supporting that reading.

          Jake

          • Jake and Lug – am sure you have seen this at one time, but throwing it out for those that may not have…

            Pathfinder – 1909
            Seminoe – 1937
            Alcova – 1938
            Kortes – 1951 * I like this one especially…FF may have ‘gone fishing’ in there (not necessarily treasure related) , the name of the place has a fun history as well but about 10 years later, and a TV show I think FF may have watched with some dedication.

            And lastly, Boysen (has a pretty canyon that we know the Fenn Family would have more than likely traveled on their trips to Yellowstone each year, Thermopolis was marketed as the Gateway to YNP for many years 30s-50s)
            The first white men through the Wind River Canyon were the Ashley Fur Party in 1825. The original dam was built by Asmus Boysen in 1908, for whom the park and reservoir are named (wealthy Iowan). Part of the original dam can still be seen adjacent to the tunnels on the Lower Wind River Campground. Mr. Boysen also built a 710kW power plant at the site. Operations ceased when in 1923 a major flood filled the plant with silt. (* interesting note that it seems the dam stayed in place up until the new dam was built, but not clear what year it was dismantled…an early HOB theory of mine was that on one of their many trips through the canyon they got to fish the river in a semi natural setting…now I realize that was not likely the case, as the water downstream from the original dam was always Tribal Land, and would have likely been very limited to fishing/other activities.)

            The CB&O Railroad went through the canyon in 1911 and the state highway went through in 1925. The existing dam was completed in 1951. Boysen became a state park in 1956.

          • Plenty of man-made places.

            After leaving it on simmer for awhile, Quake Lake is still the only prominent nature-made place-that-a-clue-might-refer-to I can come up with that didn’t exist when ff was a kid.

            Slide Lake (on the Gros Ventre in Wyo) came and went in the 1920’s, just before he was born.

            Anybody else got a natural feature that didn’t exist before, say, 1949 or so?

            Jake

          • Jake – why the emPHAsis on ‘natural’? I challenge that anything nature ‘creates’ would be on a timeline not supportive of that thought. While the lake was ‘created’, the mountain was there all along, it just moved slightly. water ways, and bodies of water can change the most over shorter (human relevant) timelines…so thanks, now you got my noodle cooking as well…here is what I come up with…flash floods…many gullies, ravines, small canyons can be created in very short time…but will those same features last 1000 yrs? I’d say no…will quake lake last? Maybe, a nice heavy snow year, maybe super cold to induce ice (that when breakup occurs could theoretically scour the dam exit away) with spring flooding could take the lake right back to a river way if enough water inflow…lots of collector creeks directly into the lake…think 20+ inches of rain in a day…what would that look like?

        • KK –

          Many of the “lakes” in the four state area were crated by damming.

          Also many of the geography that relies on geology have changed. Things like the cones formed by geyser activity. Or soda formation found at mineral rich hot springs.

          But it seems futile to look for these things. Better to focus on solving the clues and then marrying them to a map without worrying about how old the place is.

          IMO
          Lugnutz

          • Thanks Lugnutz,

            I was just propgating that using geologic features only, might leave some coming up short. I have a solve that works pretty well from my line of thinking. Just waiting to see if someone can do a botg trip.

            Good luck in your search!

        • I would add another possible implication for, “…but MOST of the places the clues refer to did.”

          Perhaps the answer(s) to one or more of the clues can be found in the book (TToTC).

      • Hi Flutterby, Richard L, and others following this thread. The subject of place names as clue answers has been a contentious one, partly because of the toponomy Q&A, and also concern for places changing names over some of the longer timeframes that Forrest has proposed the Chase might last. Folks here know my position on toponomy: it has nothing to do with the mere existence of such labels; when you read a map, you are not engaging in toponomy. Labels (whether highway numbers, street names, rivers, lakes, mountains, states, counties, etc.) provide a simple way of explaining navigation from point A to point B. Furthermore, metaphors provide a convenient method of pointing to a particular place without actually naming it.

        As to the question of place name longevity, barring some major holocaust, record-keeping has reached a level of sophistication that even centuries from now, people will be able to pull up the maps that were contemporary with the time the poem was written. No one is going to use a year-2500 map to help solve clues that were constructed in 2010. So I echo what KK wrote: “I agree that place names can also change fairly quickly and roads are moved/reconstructed. But in most cases a prior map will have existed that future generations can reference back to-“.

        I have no doubt whatsoever that the answers to some of Forrest’s 9 clues involve place names.

        • Zap;

          I agree – mostly;
          Do my “Places” have names that can be found on a map?
          WWWH – Yes
          Canyon Down – Yes
          hoB – Yes
          Meek Place – Yes
          End place – Mostly
          NPUYC place – kinda
          HL place – not really
          WH place – kinda
          Blaze – not exactly

          Am I right? Who knows? – JDA

      • Richard L,
        I don’t think pickles have anything to do with it. But, a jar of green olives perhaps. Lol

    • I think this is messing with the poem and overly complicated even without the directive not to do so.

      • FMC, what part of the write up do you think is messing with the poem…everything mentioned or some of the concepts?

        • I get antonyms in this particular case (because of the “No”), but I think homophones are a stretch and I think homophones of an antonym is some combination of a) messing with the poem, b) trying too hard/over-complication, or c) logically deficient thinking.

          I keep harping (at least in my head, but at least once in a post) on Occam’s Razor (#simplify), but maybe let’s go a bit further with it as a roundabout way of maybe getting to what this line means in my own solve.

          What is the simplest explanation for “No place for the meek”?

          • FMC, IMO there is text in TTOTC that confirms the use of homophones in the poem.

          • Answer – “Not a place that a meek person would want to visit.” Simplest answer. Is it the answer that Forrest wants us to come up with? Personal feelin = NO. JMO – JDA

          • JDA – in your mind, does your simplest answer mean a place name with scary overtones (i.e. Death Point, Suicide Lake, or somesuch)?

            Given the world we live in today, can you go the next step (IMO) take it to an even more general POV/interpretation?

          • FMC;

            To your first question – “In a word – YES”

            To your second question “can you go the next step (IMO) take it to an even more general POV/interpretation?” Anything is possible. For my solve, the answer is no. JDA

          • JDA – don’t think about your solve in the context of my question. Think about your thinking. This is an exercise in solve theory, not a practical application.

            It’s also open to anyone else… besides a meek-related place name, what is a simpler interpretation of “no place for the meek”?

          • FMC, “meek” means passive. So “no place for the meek” would be a place where being ACTIVE is appropriate . . . perhaps a place to hike (and maybe also comment about the scenery). My search hike is in such a place. But as far as clues go, this by itself isn’t much help in solving the poem, as there are more than 8.25 places that qualify. All of them are in the Rocky Mountains and in one of the 4 special states that hold the interest of many searchers.

          • I find it very difficult to think “no place for the meek” has anything to do with peoples emotional feelings unless 2 or more searchers are involved in this area.

            I like to keep emotions out of the poem clues but not the hints.

            It’s possible that there are multiple meanings that work for the same place or thing for a clue as a backup to ensure everyone has the same opportunity considering they are physically & mentally fit as Forrest was at 80 or so.

            I get sad when I read “The end is ever drawing nigh;

    • FB, homophones are a popular way of going about the clues in the blog. Has anybody found examples of ff using homophones in his books or writings? Any subtle uses in TTOTC?

  46. I don’t think FF excluded any word tricks, he used them all … the Ah’s, the Aha’s, and the Ha Ha’s. Thats why his books “write themselves.”
    Why didn’t he just say “three candy bars each” instead of, well, you know. Was that just a teachable marketing lesson? Or delicious chuckle that could also double as a hint?

  47. Just a question for all you pros: I believe Forrest has said in the past that WWWH is not a dam. And also that the treasure chest is not “associated” with any structure.

    Has he gone further (farther?) and do we know if any of the 9 clues in the poem are “associated” with a structure? Or can we assume that all clues are natural/geographic?

    • “Cynthia” is the one to ask. As I understand the story Cynthia mentioned that her hoB was related to a structure. Forrest replied – to the effect (not a quote) that – Hadn’t he said that no structures were associated with the poem (or hoB). Whatever he said, Cynthia interpreted it to mean that no structures are associated with any of the poem clues.

      That is how I remember and interpret what was said. If I am wrong, I apologize. If I am not correct, Cynthia can chime in ant tell the story as she remembers it. Just how I remember what I heard or read – JDA

      • From Mysterious Writings:
        Question posted 6/30/2014:

        Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits?

        Thanks, d

        Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information.f

        If this were not so I’m sure by now I would have forced a solve using Absarokee Hut as “In the Wood” and started digging below the fireplace.

        • Thanks for the responses JDA and Argillite.

          Argillite – The reference you post asks two questions (a) all 9 clues, or (b) just the chest. Forrest ignores (a) and only answers (b) repeating what he’s said before that the treasure itself is not associated with a structure. Unless Cynthia chimes in, or some other searcher with the facts that JDA was alluding to, I’m unsure we could certainly say that (a)ll clues are not associated with a structure.

          • I found the reference by Cynthia: chasingfennstreasure.com/blog/the-treasure-is-not-associated-with-a-structure

            “Remember years ago when Forrest said on the Today Show that “the treasure is not associated with any structure.” It had to do with searchers digging up outhouses. From then forward most searchers assumed he meant the treasure chest itself was not associated with a structure.

            In September 2014, I did a search in the Jemez Mountains using San Antonio Hot Springs as my WWWH, and the old CCC cabin nearby as the “home of Brown”, from which I put in below it looking for a blaze. Soon after this search I met Forrest at The Collected Works Book Store and once again enthusiastically relayed my search story to him. When I mentioned the CCC cabin was my home of Brown, he immediately said “don’t you remember I said it can’t be associated with any structure?” Hmmm, at this point I realized NONE of the clues can be a structure.

            To add to the confusion this was posted on Mysterious Writings 6/30/2014:

            Question: “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits? Thanks, d”

            Answer: “Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information.f”

            This was typical Fenn-speak… his words are true but he didn’t answer with all the truth. He should have said to google “associated”.

            When I posted my information on Dal’s site late last year regarding Forrest reminding me that home of Brown could not be a structure, it created a firestorm of sorts. I received personal emails from others who did not want to post their information on the blogs but they confirmed that he said the same thing to them. In fact, one of the emails from a searcher stated that Fenn told them using these words “NONE of the clues are a structure.” Hope this helps – JDA

          • I’ve never heard this before and it stinks. “No clue associated with any structure” either blows away my solve I’ve invested heavily in or tells me there are not only clues, but also hints in the poem and at least one is a structure. This comes Just when I was thinking that the 9 clues are 9 different locations, with #9 being the chest.

            This sounds like part hearsay, and part misinterpretation, though. If I were inclined to believe there are no structures associated with the poem whatsoever I’d quit right now and never look back. My solace is the Fenn quote regarding whether all the clues existed when he was a kid, for which he indicated no – this seems to imply some could be structures. My other solace would be I found MY special place.

          • @CRM114 — I think you are not alone with your ‘it stinks’ assertion. What if Cynthia chose not to share his comment to her? Many would have spent thousands of dollars on searches without the benefit of this extra and valuable hint. But what if he never said it at all? He’s never verified it over at MW or in public at book signings when on tape. More and more, folks who are starting youtube sites are claiming ‘Forrest spoke to me!” If he did, and he’s being selective in to whom he says what, that’s a pretty steep slippery slope. But we don’t really know if he actually ever said these things. Quite the conundrum.

          • @aardvarkbark I think either 1) Cynthia misinterpreted and Forrest only meant HOB is not a structure, meaning there is an obscure hint given to Cynthia (which to her credit she published). This would mean the or 2) Forrest misinterpreted Cynthia and thought she was looking for the treasure at a structure.

            In either case, the “firestorm emails” are worthless as they are second-hand.

            Case 1 would definitely stink if anyone thinks HOB is structure and hadn’t heard this. (My Hob is not a structure). But it also stinks if hints are being given to individuals, and it would be a hint because it narrows the search. I prefer to think Case 2 is the answer.

      • I’ll chime in on Cynthia’s behalf. All that follows is from her blog on January 24th this year.

        “Remember years ago when Forrest said on the Today Show that “the treasure is not associated with any structure.” It had to do with searchers digging up outhouses. From then forward most searchers assumed he meant the treasure chest itself was not associated with a structure.

        “In September 2014, I did a search in the Jemez Mountains using San Antonio Hot Springs as my WWWH, and the old CCC cabin nearby as the “home of Brown”, from which I put in below it looking for a blaze. Soon after this search I met Forrest at The Collected Works Book Store and once again enthusiastically relayed my search story to him. When I mentioned the CCC cabin was my home of Brown, he immediately said “don’t you remember I said it can’t be associated with any structure?” Hmmm, at this point I realized NONE of the clues can be a structure.

        “To add to the confusion this was posted on Mysterious Writings 6/30/2014:

        Question: “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits? Thanks, d”

        Answer: “Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information.f”

        “This was typical Fenn-speak… his words are true but he didn’t answer with all the truth. He should have said to google “associated”.

        “When I posted my information on Dal’s site late last year regarding Forrest reminding me that home of Brown could not be a structure, it created a firestorm of sorts. I received personal emails from others who did not want to post their information on the blogs but they confirmed that he said the same thing to them. In fact, one of the emails from a searcher stated that Fenn told them using these words “NONE of the clues are a structure.”

        • Ahh — I see JDA and I were on the same page and he was a little faster on the draw!

          • Well, dayaaam. That takes away my best guess for HOB.

            Thanks both JDA and zaphod73491. I’ve only been brainstorming on this for 2 weeks, so I appreciate your “institutional” knowledge. 🙂

            I had the pleasure of working for Alan Greenspan back when he was still the master of the universe. He and Forrest share that magic knack for saying words and phrases that are artfully uninterpretable or can be ascribed whichever meaning you desire. The vague-genius award I guess.

            If I were a masterful defense attorney, given what you shared, I think I could still make an argument that HOB was a spot below hebgen dam. I was 50 yards away sir, I wasn’t associated with that crime…

            but, I think I’ll have to go back to asking my nieces and nephews what they think these words could mean.

  48. that narrows it a bit but some buildings are worth a visit if not for the treasure for the knowledge. ill be playing this weekend be safe all. remember have fun. im going off to find a few marbles yes i ment in my mind it needs some away time alone to think ill pull up a tree some where prop up against it and have a good conversation with it. then ill take a good walk with titan he loves that. good days all

    • Good thinkin’ to ya’ – Let Titan lead the way, he just might get the scent of something you are looking for 🙂 – JDA

      • Hi JDA thank you and every one for the info on Travis Brown .I thought he got lost in the WOOD looking for the Korn .

  49. The folks who live along the Yellowstone River in Montana’s Paradise Valley are besieged with new mining threats. This film shows you why the folks who live there think it’s pretty good enough without a mine…and all the environmental problems these large mining operations bring along…
    https://www.outsideonline.com/2323336/fight-montanas-yellowstone-river?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Destinations-07042018&utm_content=Destinations-07042018+Version+B+CID_89ac3010c022f88daec601558d565a86&utm_source=campaignmonitor%20outsidemagazine

  50. Regarding a “structure”. FF’s own comment is somewhat of a contradiction. Here is one definition of a structure. “construct or arrange according to a plan; give a pattern or organization to” So if this definition is used to describe the poem, then the TC is most definitely related to a structure (the poem itself).

    • to add to the conversation Flutterby…everything has structure, at the molecular level.

      I think.

        • miafarmerfriend;

          Thanks for sharing. It, like many of Forrest’s posts, raises as many questions as it answers. “you should not believe everything you read”. f OK what should we not believe? – That he said (to the effect) that no clues are associated with structures? Not believe that that was what Cynthia heard? HUMMMMM?? – More questions???? JDA

        • JDA,

          My question to Mr. Fenn was with respect to the revelation that a searcher claimed they were told by him “NONE of the clues are a structure”.

          Twice Forrest stated “the treasure”, as well as when correcting Cynthia he said “it” when referring to a structure. So for me, to suggest he means anything other than “the chest” just seems misleading. I’ve endearingly pegged Mr. Fenn as a dirty-dog, but I honestly can’t accept that he expected us to anticipate he meant ALL the clues were intended to be included within his “the treasure is not associated” quotes with the way in which he stated them. If that were the case, I think it would dramatically change how one goes about attempting to solve the poem. I know it would for at least a portion of my solve!

          I’m not questioning Cynthia’s comment- “Hmmm, at this point I realized NONE of the clues can be a structure”, as that was her own personal summation. But I would be very interested if in relaying her solve to Forrest, she gave him the impression the chest was in any way within close proximity to the CCC cabin? That would certainly clear things up for me. If not, I’m not sure I care to know as that would cause more thinkin’!

      • The tree)sure is associated with a tree. Search google for tree definition and you’ll find that a tree id a structure. Forrest said it you can connect all of the lines in the right spot you have the treasure BUT what if someone burns or cuts down the associated trees or adds more blazes?

        Sound the following words out and you will see the rules are imaginarily suspended.

        Trea becomes tree
        TREAsure
        TREAson
        TREAt

    • Oz,
      Since FF has told us he felt like an architect constructing the poem, then I’d say the very organization of words is a structure. IMO

      • FB, the poem itself is a word structure sure. I meant the solution to the clues may not follow a pattern. All 9 of them may not even be co-related and in that case, he can truly say -not associated with any structure-.

        • OZ10;

          I am not sure I understand your “All 9 of them may not even be co-related.” Forrest says , “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in CONSECUTIVE ORDER If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f

          Additionally Forrest answers: “1Q) Even today, after more than six years of people searching, and after all the news coverage, articles, and stories written about your secreted treasure, some people are just learning about your Thrill of the Chase treasure hunt and getting involved. It continues to inspire. Do you have any advice for these new people? How should they begin the search six years after so many others? Do you feel they are at any disadvantage?
          No, fresh eyes and new thinking might provoke a winning idea. I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map. It seems like the longer one thinks about the search the more they complicate the problem.:”

          Considering these two quotes, can you explain how the clues can NOT be co-related? Just not understanding – JDA

          • JDA, if you read this one carefully:

            I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map.

            Imo, he doesn’t say a single place on a map. Also this one:

            But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure. F

            On that one says each clue has its own geo location. I don’t know if they align into a straight line or an X or the star of David but we need all 9 to have a complete map.

          • To me you reinforce what I just said. The nine clues ARE co-related, in that they create a map. They ARE co-related because all of the clues originate from the same poem. They all have a common nexus – Ther ARE co-related. JMO – JDA

          • Oz10…That is how I see things unfolding as of now. “Geographic location of each clue…” did not compute for me when the comment came out. The other comment is less clear…and I think some folks prefer interpreting it differently because it fits their current idea/s. “…look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to *a place* on a map.” One way this one jives with other comments…but not as a single place/location for all clues.

          • JDA…As a whole unit I agree with what you are saying. I may be incorrect…I think Oz was implying that the clues themselves are individual steps/locations along the way on the map they form.?

          • Yes, ken gots it. The point was that the words that make up the clues within the poem CAN be a structure-like. 6 stanzas times 4 lines each with good rhyme and a semi-coherent flow. Need to be follow in order, etc…

            But once they are solved, the locations they point to may not relate to one another necessarily. Not a direct pattern or a ‘structured’ way to the chest. If it was that easy….

          • All clues are in a separate location and all except the final 2 are at least a mile apart IMO

          • Well maybe – but then again, maybe not. I think you could draw a 1 mile circle around – The end is ever drawing nigh, NPUYC, HL, WH and the blaze – But that is just my opinion, and I probably do not know didley-squat – JDA

          • I wish they could all be encompassed by a 1 mile radius as I don’t want to hike that far, but I’m rather certain of my solve.

          • I can drive to the trailhead, but then I have to hike about 6 miles. There are also stock trails and outfitters in the area that offer horseback riding

          • Thanks for your reply. 6 X 4 = 24 miles in one afternoon for a 79 or 80 year old man. A bit challenging I would think. Horses available, yes, but if a horse used – why two trips? – Just asking questions I would ask myself if I had your solve – JDA

          • You cannot take stock on all trails. He would have had to tie up his horse and walk less than a few miles twice 😉

          • Eric D: but Fenn’s walking was done from his CAR (sedan) to the treasure chest twice, not two round trips from some waypoint beyond where he parked. Also, it’s one thing to leave the treasure chest or its contents in the trunk of your locked car unattended. But to leave one or the other with (or hidden near) your horse? The logistics and risks of your solution seem to contrast with Forrest’s recent suggestion for searchers to “Simplify.”

          • Sorry Eric D, I have to agree with Zap IMO. The two trips were from his car and not from a horse. He specifically said two trips from his car. If he took a horse from his car and then made two trips from his horse I do not think he would have stated he made two trips from his car. Dave

          • Unless he was prevaricating or quibbling and took another mode of transportation afyer the car

          • As for my solution, it’s about as simple as you can get. I follow the clues/places in the poem right to the TC

  51. Holy rabbit hole! Sat down at the computer 5 hours ago to do some work. Pulled up ole Dal’s blog to see if it had been found yet. And here I am, just finished reading a bunch of posts from 2012. Jimeny Cricket! Now I have to get some work done and stop obsessing.

    Have a great weekend all and stay safe.

    • dwiser… there is some good stuff in the way back days. A lot of it comes and goes as “new” ideas …but has been discussed many times over. Seems to be a cycle of sorts…

    • Yes—- the sentence “the end is ever drawing nigh” describes the ideas on the blog very well. lol

      • Sparrow – The end is EVER drawing nigh = More than once – maybe many – So, the end may seem to be getting closer, but in reality, it is just a replay of yesterdays tunes, and the end of the record, in reality, gets no closer – like an endless spliced tape – 🙂 Just jokin’ – I think that, in fact, the end IS getting closer – (I hope) – JDA

  52. Hi – I was hoping to come back in a year or too to journey the quest. Well, as life happens, not everything will go right. A little over two years ago, my local doc found a brain tumor, seated deeply. The result was like taking your computer onto your roof, and dropping off onto the concreet. The result was rewiring. Haa haa. So, that’s how it goes. The worst part is having disphazia ( i’m just guessing) and optice nerve damage. So, now I can read . . . sort of. I can read three letters in the line of sight, then I have to slide over to the next letters. So, beleive it of not, I can still type (mostly) . What is funny is that after I type, it’s like pulling teeth to go back and ——— you know what I mean. Oh, yeah , , reread. And I taught high school and 4th graders for 24 years. BUMMER! So, I am trying to get back and see what has been happening. I am so glad that there is some spoken info for the search. Oh, by the way, if any of you were around over the last 5 or 4 years ago, I used to offer afew poems. Not as awesome as Michael ? D. and the others, but I had fun entering some of them to Dal’s. Is he still doing well? I do ask you for forgiveness if you would (or wood, as Forrest likes to quip) I know that I ticked off some folks when I sent out a ( I thought humores) but not others. So, I am sorry for offending you. I appologize. OK . . . enjoy the hunt or search. I hope someone finds it be I die so I can enjoy knowing that someone solved it!!!

    Jay Ober Page, AZ ( MacSweeny)

  53. If you still have a posting sight for poems, I would like to give it a try. It will probably be pretty painful, but I still love poems. : )

  54. I know f didn’t give us the info when he hid the chest, but since he said 79/80, to answer the question correctly, wouldn’t that put the date at 08/22/2010? He knows how old he was, he knows whether or not he was 79 or 80. So to not be deceptive, he would answer that 79, or 80 if not on that date. If on that date, it’s possible he didn’t know the exact time when he was hiding the chest, and, by knowing what time he was born, (let’s say as an example 2:30pm), if he hid the chest at 2:00pm, from example, this puts him at 79 years old still. If he hid at 3:00pm, then he would be 80. So the answer of being 79/80 fits the date, and his best guess at which time of day. It would be interesting to ask his family if he was around on his birthday on 08/22/2010, or if he was on a vacation fishing.

    Then again, maybe he was just 79 or 80 years old and he doesn’t want to comment on it. But, in fun, it could answer some possible, off the wall questions.
    When he got cancer- not when he was diagnosed, but when he “got” cancer. Meaning when he beat cancer, would be 15 years earlier on 08/22/1995. You then have a timeline:
    Diagnosed-01/1988
    operation to remove, given 20% for 3 years- 12/1988
    when his fate had reached bottom- 09/1992, when he got the idea
    “got’ control of health, beat cancer-08/22/1995
    Hid the treasure 15 years later-08/22/2010
    This would be for all you two trips in one day searchers. (which I don’t believe in, I think separate days).

    If you think separate days, try this:
    80 years is 29,220 days
    The book contains 28,800 words
    use as a basis of his comments,
    first trip = book, as days, or 28,800 days or 06/28/2009. This would be the first trip.
    Second trip, the book of days, 29,220, or 08/22/2010.

    But ask, why did f say it was too big of a clue. These ways don’t seem like huge “ah-ha” moments, (probably because they are wrong, remember, just having fun). Unless you think of “X”, the 24th letter, and the 420 day difference, or 42. Maybe it’s the number 2442 that is a hint. Think about it, 2+4=6, so 2442 could be 66, or the sixth letter of the alphabet, FF. Maybe the Summer he was 66 years old, ’97. You can tie that in with “marvel gaze”, maybe it’s a hint regarding the blaze?/?

    Or, maybe it’s nothing at all but old research of one’s solve. Since f has never given this info, in the end, it would only be a guess. No matter how possibly right, or how many stories that someone can make fit, or add up coincidentally, it would still be a guess. My long, dragged out point, if you consider trying to solve clue to clue, remember, f did not give the info to solve some of the clues correctly. So no matter what, you can make lines and stories cross to be perfect or satisfying to a solve, and, it may be right actually, but only by luck, because in the end, f didn’t give the info, and like trying to solve when he hid the treasure, the results are just a guess. And f has said no room for guessing. Chalk one up for the “solve the poem” searchers. I still say, you will know the end spot before you know where the starting spot will be. The poem solve will give the location of the chest, the end spot, the clues that he didn’t give info for will be found on your path. Wwwh, IMO, will only be found when you have the end spot, you may get lucky and guess, but then you would need to get lucky and guess correctly 8 more times. No wonder the few that have started at the right spot walked right by everything else. What are the odds of correctly guessing 9 individual clues?

    • charlie,

      When F hid the treasure is good value for conversations, but I believe has no value in helping in finding the chest. When the treasure is found I believe will show that F did or does give the info to for each clue, albeit the info is vague. When you write about, “you will know the end spot before you know where the starting spot will be”. is a completely false way of thinking. One has to start at the beginning to find the end. Your statement to me, sounds like trying to reverse engineer the poem, which will cause a very futile search with no end in sight.

      There will be no luck involved in finding the treasure, it is for someone that knows and goes right to the chest. If your guessing I think there will always be failure. As I think your post is just that, a guess.

      Just Say’n

      • you can start with one sure thing, that it is above 5,000 feet. There are references to this – “heavy loads and water high” – (glacier lake?); “worth the cold”. When he originally wrote the poem he did not say it was above 5,000 feet; you were supposed to get that when you read the poem. Really? At least it gives you some perspective on the clues; IMO you can barely call them clues, maybe “tidbits” or “riddles” is more accurate.

    • Charlie;

      You have an interesting way of having fun.

      Funny that you say, ” f did not give the info to solve some of the clues correctly.” I find that quite funny, since I believe that he has given us everything we need to know in order to solve ALL of the clues.

      Your next funny assertion (for me anyway) is saying, ” the results are just a guess.” There is NO guessing involved Charlie – at least not in my solve. Nothing but hard work, logical thinking, good imagination and a perceptive eye when reading TTOTC.

      Next thing that tickled my funny bone : “Wwwh, IMO, will only be found when you have the end spot,” For me, without the correct wwwh, one can never reach the “End spot” – whether you mean that “The END is ever drawing nigh” – spot, or the place where Indulgence is secreted. Either way, you have to have started at the correct place, and that is the correct WWWH.

      NO guessing Charlie – As I said before, “Nothing but hard work, logical thinking, good imagination and a perceptive eye when reading TTOTC.”

      But then, I do not yet have Indulgence, so I could be full of BS. Who knows Charlie, you MIGHT be right, but either way, I had a good laugh – Thanks – JDA

      • JDA, I have posted this ATF to you before and did not get an answer. It’s come up again, but yet you don’t answer. So I will try again.

        You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh, and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
        No I don’t madam, sorry. F

        He does not tell the correct answer for wwh, hoB, and the blaze. He does not give that info. So my question is, how did you solve for them, since f has never given the info to do just that?

        CharlieM, there are some out here that when they solved the poem, get coordinates. Puts an ‘X” on a map. They solved it this way because that is how the poem is meant to be solved. By putting an ‘X” an a map. If you have your “X”, you then can draw your path on how to get there. This will yield a starting spot. That will be the first clue, and this starting spot will have things in common to not only that line, but many references. That clue is “TO BE FOUND” not solved. It cannot be solved, see ATF above. There is no “reverse engineering” the poem as you say, I wouldn’t even know how to do that or where to begin. You cannot solve the poem by solving clues. You don’t know what a clue even is, except for the two that we know are clues, they just can’t be solved. If you are solving these clues, then you are guessing, no matter how much it fits, it’s a guess, because, F HAS NOT GIVEN THE INFO TO SOLVE FOR THEM. just like the “when he hid the chest” example.

        I’ll give you an example, when you get directions to a place, let’s say using MapQuest, do you put in addresses from your house to places along the way until you get to your destination? Or, do you put in your destination and follow the path on how to get there? You get the end spot and chart/map your path. You chart that path from the end spot to where you are going to start.
        Another example, go ahead and start at your start point, I will give you places to go by until you get to the end. Does this sound like a solid way to get to the end? You don’t know where you are going. You can guess all you want on which way to go, but most likely you’ll get lost.

        As the chase goes, you are solving things that f has said cannot be solved correctly because he has not given the info to do that. That means that it’s a GUESS. So research all you want, get histories all you want, match things to what YOU think is a clue and force it to fit, in the end, it’s guessing. Just because the idea of spending all this time with this and being wrong, and knowing that you’d have to start over because you went against what f has said, is a major blow to an ego. Pride won’t let some, but the truth be told, how can you solve for wwwh when the creator of wwwh says that he has never given the info to solve it correctly?

        JDA, you said,”I believe that he has given us everything we need to know in order to solve ALL of the clues”.
        But yet he tells us that he has not given the info to solve some of the clues. He has given us the info to find a spot in the Rocky Mountains. He didn’t even know how many clues he had until he was done. He wrote the poem to find a spot, not to solve for clues. That’s not to say all the clues, but he has told us, some of them.

        CharlieM, you said,”One has to start at the beginning to find the end. Your statement to me, sounds like trying to reverse engineer the poem, which will cause a very futile search with no end in sight.
        See MapQuest.
        And yes, my post was just a guess, that was the point. I could tie in some stories of his, some comments, dates that are relevant, and come up with a pretty good GUESS, of when he hid the chest. But I do not have the actual info to solve for the dates, so no matter how well thought out or not, it’s a guess. Just like what the people are doing when they try to solve, wwwh, hoB, and the blaze. (per the ATF).
        Ask yourself, do you really know what a clue is? Do you know what f thinks a clue is? and then, can I solve for a clue even though the info to do so is not available? The part that’s funny is that a lot of searchers say yes, and guess, and make themselves believe that they can.
        I’ll be going out in a month or so, when I go, I will get directions to where I’m going and follow a path to get there, I know where I’m going first, and will follow the directions the path guides me with. I don’t know yet where my flight will fly into yet, but I know where I need to go. I know the end spot before I know the start. It’s funny to think I’d just start somewhere and blindly go somewhere out in the forest, and expect to find a treasure chest.
        Just sayin’….:)

        • “Emily, All of the information you need to find my treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker.”
          “I’ve said many times that everything about my poem and my book is straightforward…”

        • You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh, and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
          No I don’t madam, sorry. F

          What that means to me is simple. The subtle hints in the book do not give you the ‘right answer’ or ‘solve’ to the clues.

          For example, a subtle hint in the book could be a word association/relationship when he wrote about the -borderline biddies at the Borders store-.

          He might be telling us to use that ‘word play’ with the terms in the poem so we can solve it, and that will be how much a hint will help.

          The hint is NOT that the treasure is close to a Borders store, or close to a state border or below the house of Brown biddies.

          I’m sure many want to think that the hints are more specific than that example, even though ff has never said the hints themselves will take you to the chest or that the hints will point you in the right direction nor that they will be hinting to all places around where the chest is located.

          • Oz…setting your examples aside, I agree that the “subtle hints” will only help in a very general way while deciphering the clues. The quote I posted above says “very subtle hints”. Here are some synonyms of *subtle*; crafty, sly, wily, clever, tricky, foxy, slick, thin, tenuous, faint, obscure, shrewd, indirect, not clear or sharply defined, not obvious, hard to notice, difficult to perceive. The list is long and I can’t help but think that anyone that pulls a location out of TTOTC for a search area is destined to just good times vacationing in the Rockies. No offense meant to anyone…it just seems that the failure rate glaringly supports this thought.
            I believe that when the treasure is retrieved it will be a stunner as to how simplistic it is(the correct solution). Good luck to all out there !

          • Yes Ken, my example was just to illustrate the point, not to be taken as fact. Thanks.

  55. Hi all Clint here. I have a question for how every may be up for a chalange.when you get to water high and still there read next stanza (if you’ve been wise and found the blaze,)past tense,it sounds to me like you have to go by the blaze.any comments

    • If I want a cold Dr Pepper, when I have found the refrigerator door, I open it; I don’t walk past it.

      In the field, if you find the one actual blaze, I suggest you look quickly down while you’re there before moving past it to then look quickly down.

      And if you elect to move past it while continuing to look quickly down, do take care to not smack your forehead on the lower branch of a pinyon pine. Due to budget cuts, the Forest Service is no longer pruning up the lower branches on trees (though rangers still get a kick out of sending summer interns out with a pair of loppers telling them to do so).

    • Clint, just my opinion….. you are possibly correct. The blaze, I believe, is a road, forest service road XYZ spur 1a, that Y’s (wise) off of f.s. road xyz. You will descend on that road to its end, about a mile. At the end, you will look down (para abajo) and see a para omegas in the creek. Two oxbows in the creek, nearly symmetrical, two C’s, if you would. Just my opinion, at this time, and no guarantees at all. Good luck.

  56. This is an age old non-concern in my opinion. I do not believe Fenn plays favorites in this treasure hunt. If that was true…someone would have “found” the treasure by now. Fenn is human and when folks put themselves in his path it is his prerogative to welcome them…or not. He is a willing participant in this and continues to interact in what he created as best he can without spilling the so-called beans. It seems that so far no one has slipped him a truth serum…so maybe we should all just be content that he still puts a few words out for ALL.
    After all, he could just clam up and tell everyone to get lost(just figuratively)! Chicken Little is just a fable….

  57. Does anyone else get a FF vibe from the new apple ad on tv with the Daniel Johnston tune-

    “Listen up and I’ll tell a story
    About an artist growing old
    Some would try for fame and glory
    Others aren’t so bold

    The artist walks among the flowers
    Appreciating the sun
    He does this all his waking hours
    But is it really so wrong?”

    To me, it has similarities to another little poem we are all familiar with…

    I’m thinking we should commission Daniel to ‘sing Fenn’s poem’, yes?

    IMO, of course.

  58. I find this amusing,
    The musings
    The depth and breadth
    We build into “the Chase”,
    Obscuring the obvious?
    Once “It” is found
    Will “It” render our meanderings
    As silly, senselessness?

  59. Back home from searching and vacationing. We had a blast in both Yellowstone and Glacier and saw some amazing sites. I’ll see if I can throw together some of my searches to post without giving away the overall theme that I used for most.

    • Glad you’re all back safe. The most important thing of the trip.
      Throw us a bone if you dare.

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