Where Warm Waters Halt…Part Twelve

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This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the conversation go to the newest WWWH page.

This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion begin…

dal…

833 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…Part Twelve

  1. Hi Dal,

    Are you still pretty confident that Madison Junction is WWH? Hope you’re doing well.

    • Bryan-
      Confident is a word I am not willing to use…
      I like it…
      I still use it because I have not come up with anything better..
      But having said that, I also use a couple others from time to time when searching…but that one is my favorite…

      • For Madison Junction’ers, do you ever question Fenn’s use of “certainly more than several” when describing the number of searchers that have figured out the first clue?

        As opposed to a phrase indicating a larger number (i.e. “everyone and their mother” or the like)?

        I’m assuming you rationalize the “certainly more than several” as FF being coy/not giving anything away or that maybe you just haven’t really thought about your WWWH in context of this statement.

        Search where you want to search… I’m just curious is all.

        • If he said, ‘everyone and their mother,’ we would all know WWWH being Madison Junction would be one of very few possibilities, though.

        • It all depends on how you look at f’s answer…….more than several?
          Several = more than 2 but not many
          more than several = ? 1000 ?

        • I have just thought about wwwh in the car and have possibly figured out something. Where warm waters halt could also be where waters halt. Warm could be there to misdirect us. Maybe it is where all waters would halt. Where is that? I thought to myself while driving in the car- OIL.

        • Thanks Bryan-
          I recall that conversation with Forrest over breakfast at the Loretto Inn with a journalist/searcher. So there were three of us at the table. After we ordered but before the food arrived Forrest asked us what the nine clues were. At that time the Loretto had a sandwich named for Forrest on their menu and a copy of the poem on a table card. They were promoting the Thrill of the Chase and hoping to attract searchers to their hotel…

          The two of us were going through the poem, line by line and pointing out what we thought were the clues to Forrest. He didn’t flinch or comment about what we said until we were finished. The two of us had several divergent opinions about what was a clue and what was not.

          At that point Forrest looked at the journalist/searcher and asked him where he would begin…where was his WWWH. The journalist then mentioned his theory about YNP being WWWH. I certainly cannot quote anyone at this point, my memory won’t allow it. But the gist of what occurred next was that Forrest asked how that would help and mentioned that YNP was a big place so where would he begin his search. After some additional short discussion Forrest told him that his idea did not give him a place to begin and that WWWH was a specific place not a region. That was one of the first times I heard Forrest say that any clue referred to a specific place.

          • Dal,

            This is actually an amazing hint in light of everything else we know now about the Chase…

            But you have to use a little deductive thinking. Its not absolute however it is certainly strong.

            So it looks like this:

            1) WWWH is the first clue and you begin your search there.
            2) WWWH is a specific place NOT a general place.
            3) WWWH has been identified by several searchers.
            4) WWWH and the second clue have been identified by at least a few searchers but they went right on by the treasures hiding spot.

            Now given that everything above is true and the vast majority of searchers are, either in the Yellowstone area, or Madison Junction area — IF these were the right WWWH; would Forrest make a point of saying only a few or several searchers have correctly identified the specific place that WWWH?

            Just a thought,

            GCG

          • GCG-
            I don’t know that I believe ” the vast majority of searchers are, either in the Yellowstone area, or Madison Junction area”.
            I think you vastly underestimate the number of searchers looking in NM. I suspect there is close to an equal number in both NM and the Yellowstone area. If Yellowstone has any advantage at all it is simply because YNP and the Tetons are vacation destinations and folks decide to head there for a vacation and then discover the story about the treasure and decide to look for that as well…
            Additionally…things today are not as they were two, three, four, or more years ago when many of those statements were first made…

          • GCG;

            Seems like a valid point to me, but am sure that the YNP and YNP area searchers will disagree – Just a thought – JDA

          • Dal,

            I left NM out on purpose perhaps I shouldn’t have since it is distracting from the main point of my logic.

            I could have included NM in my comments and then used very common/popular areas for searchers there like; Ojo Cliente, Rio Chama, Toltec Gorge or Dinosaur National Park perhaps.

            The point though is the same. These areas have been combed over by MANY, MANY searchers.

            Remember the definition Forrest has given us of “several.”

            It is more than a few but NOT MANY…therefore the specific place that WWWH reference by the poem, is NOT a place which has been discovered or has been combed over by many.

            Like I prefaced this comment from the beginning – it isn’t iron clad but it is very strong logic.

            Is this making good sense to anyone?

            GCG

          • GCG,

            Yes it makes sense. It’s essentially the same point I was making two days ago.

          • FMC,

            Unfortunately I haven’t had the opportunity to keep up with your post or many others— thanks for the feed back.

            GCG

          • So Dal, are you saying you got some inside information that the rest of us wouldn’t have received. I feel so cheated. But you shared, so kudos to you. 🙂

          • Charlie-
            Don’t be a conspiracy theorist..
            Read between the lines.
            There was a journalist at the table.
            Forrest was providing info for the story.
            I wrote about it shortly after it happened about 4.5 years ago and that story is on this very blog which is where Bryan read about it and started this conversation.
            This is not new info.
            Since then Forrest has said more or less this same thing on this and other blogs at different times…For instance:
            Q: Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years?
            “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia.f”

          • Thanks Dal, this helps me get past my recent infatuation with the continental divide. I am moving on now. Glad I read this. Dave

          • Dave-
            Before you abandon your CD concept…remember that there is no reason that WWWH cannot be a particular spot on the CD. That spot may be more fully described in other lines in the poem…

            On the other hand Forrest told us:
            “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.”
            http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-questions-with-forrest-warm-waters-and-geography/

            So lets take that apart for a second..
            First…is the CD “many places”?
            Maybe…maybe not…depends on how hard you want it to be…
            Is most of it north of Santa Fe?
            Again…the part in the USA is but it is called the “continental” divide and so it includes the entire continent…
            I dunno..things get sketchy but certainly possible if you squint a little and cock your head just right.

            But lets assume, as many have, that WWWH is an active thermal event..a geyser, hot spring or the like…
            Certainly there are many of them, and also certainly, most are north of Santa Fe…if you are looking in the Rocky Mountains…
            However that gives you no place to actually start…from there it’s a guess as to which one of the thousands of thermal events in the Rocky Mountains to start at…
            So you look at other lines in the poem for help in figuring out WHICH thermal event…
            and help is there…
            In the first two lines of the poem he tells you exactly which thermal event to start at..

            As I have gone alone in there
            
And with my treasures bold,


            Most searchers believe that in those first two lines Forrest is writing about the place he hid Indulgence…but maybe not. Maybe he is writing about the place to begin…chronologically that would be the right place to describe WWWH…

            So…using that logic, WWWH is a place (a thermal event) Forrest has gone alone. How on earth would we ever know which thermal events Forrest has visited..and alone…and IN ??
            That’s actually easy..he has talked about this place and written about it…
            The place has grass growing in the bottom that waves in the current of the river and reminds him of his daughter’s hair. There is a photo of the place in one of his books and on his blog:
            https://www.oldsantafetradingco.com/blog/river-bathing-is-best

            Clearly the place where the thermal event Ojo Caliente meets the Firehole River is special to Forrest.
            He often bathed there as a youth…riding his bike the 20 or so miles from West Yellowstone.
            Bathing means he was probably naked, probably alone and since he was naked his treasures would have been bold…(close your eyes PDenver)

            Okay…you don’t like the naked idea…
            Then maybe since it is the first place..the place to begin…he was carrying his chest with him on his journey to the place where he hid Indulgence…therefor he was carrying his treasures bold.

            There are lots of possible solutions to make that work for the determined mind.

            But at least it gives you a “place” to start…

            Can you do the same with the Continental Divide?
            If so, you may not have to abandon your theory…

          • Thanks Dal, yes, that bathing spot in the Firehole River is very appealing as a WWWH for many reasons. It would be a special place where Forrest went into alone in a bold manner and where he could have ridden his bike several times in his youth. If it is the right one, it does seem a bit odd that ff would have laid it out on a ‘silver platter’ in TFTW. It is almost too perfect / obvious. If it is correct for WWWH, it could help explain why lots of people have solved the first two clues and have been within 500 feet because it is certainly a popular starting point for searchers. It has a lot going for it. So if it is the correct starting point, then what is going on with all of those searchers that begin there? Is the hoB extremely difficult? I know the chest is very small and the area is huge, but it seems as though if that is the true WWWH then someone should have solved the other clues at this point and been able to ‘go with confidence’ to the blaze. I am torn on that one but I am going to reluctantly fall on the side of it being incorrect due to the large volume of very smart people already crunching that one to death unsuccessfully.

            As for the CD, yes, they do extend south of Sante Fe, NM. That comment about most WWWH being North of Sante Fe, NM might help rule out the CD…but that statement by ff is also very tricky because I cannot really think of any WWWHs north of Sante Fe that are not mirrored in the southern hemisphere of the Americas. If he meant just the northern hemisphere with that statement he might have been alluding to ice or thermal water spots or railroad halts….all of those are much more prevalent north of Sante Fe in the Northern Hemisphere. I do think that statement rules out using a person dying as WWWH….and maybe the CD too…which is helpful. I think I am moving on from the CD, and I have not been able to make it work so I guess I was just looking for a good reason. 🙂 Best of luck this summer. Go get it before that person stirring ff’s gut does! I want to know the solve and it sounds like ff might be thinking that person might not disclose which would be an unfortunate ending. Dave

          • Well Dave-
            If Ojo Caliente is the correct starting place it is no mystery to me that Forrest would have “laid it out” in TFTW.
            First, because he knew most would never believe it’s WWWH if he did…human condition is to be suspicious.Just as you are.
            Second, because by the time TFTW was published we already knew about Ojo Caliente because the story was (and still is) on his blog and had been there from the beginning of the appearance of his stories on the blog. Many serious clue gatherers figured that out long before TFTW was published. What’s more, it was written for the West Yellowstone paper and published therein before Forrest announced the treasure hunt. (context, context, context)
            Third, because it would be just Forrest’s sense of humor to sit at his desk giggling as he read all the strange machinations we have put his poem and his books through just to figure out what WWWH is…when in reality he laid it out for us…
            So no, it doesn’t seem strange at all to me…nor unlikely…He knows more about human character than we sometimes give him credit for. He spent his gallery years selling art to guys with a lot of money who are suspicious as heck of art dealers.

            As to your second question…why hasn’t it been found if that’s the correct starting point?
            To answer that question all you’ll have to do is try it for yourself. Take a family vacation to YNP (I suggest after the tourist season but before winter)
            And if you write Forrest about the experience maybe he will tell us about at least one more person that was within 200 feet of the chest but went right by it.

          • Dal;

            One of the most fascinating aspects about the chase is how differently each of us read and interpret the same information.

            For you, the allure of the YNP area is that Forrest spent time there as a youth. He spent several summers in this area as a fishing guide, motel builder, youth and adventurer.

            I on the other-hand look at all of these things as things that Forrest has talked and written about as “distractors.” I see these stories as a way to focus our attention AWAY from where Indulgence is secreted.

            What has Forrest said about having to tell the truth only 85% of the time? Let’s take “Buffalo Cowboys” as an example. What if the “meat” (no pun intended) of the story is true – that Forrest DID lasso Cody, that it did yank the axle out from under the car, and that Cody was shot and served up in hamburgers. BUT, maybe it did not occur outside of YNP – Maybe it happened some place different. – one “wee” modification of fact.

            Because the story supposedly took place outside of YNP – most people run to West Yellowstone. Maybe they should consider the possibility of some other location.

            Who knows? I guess that if Forrest’s gut feeling comes true, we will all know within a short summer.

            What fun!!! Just something to ponder. JDA

          • * * * * Dave from KC – ” If he meant just the northern hemisphere with that statement he might have been alluding to ice or thermal water spots or railroad halts….all of those are much more prevalent north of Sante Fe in the Northern Hemisphere.” * * * *

            (This below has been mentioned many times, but bears re-repeating):

            The Northern Hemisphere isn’t what’s in question (unless ff was speaking very loosely when he wrote this answer).

            “There are many places IN THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them [places in the Rocky Mts where warm waters halt] are north of Santa Fe.”

            Nearly all the places IN THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS (including the CD) are north of Santa Fe – full stop.

            By most definitions, the Jemez and Sangre de Christo mountains are the southernmost ranges of the Rockies, and they barely extend any distance south of Santa Fe.

            Jake

          • Hi Dal, Well, after giving it some thought, I have to agree with you that I would not put it past ff to put out a blatant WWWH clue and then get a chuckle at those who dismiss it as being too obvious. I would not put this past ff as he obviously has a sense of humor and mischief. Good point. I do still struggle with hoB then being so difficult if that is true. I have to admit, there is plenty of evidence that hoB is very difficult given the fact that some searchers that sent ff their solves early in the Chase subsequently learned that some of them had sent him the correct first two clues and they have still not been able to solve it after all of these years. That has blown my mind.

            With that said, I would love to hear your opinion about the apparent sticking point with the hoB or other subsequent clues. I will completely understand if you choose not to share your opinions on this as an active searcher. There are some tantalizing potential hoBs in that area (landmark Beaver names, cinnamon names, etc.). Is it just the sheer size of the search area? Or something else? Thanks for sharing your thoughts Dal but, again, I understand you have limits on how much you would want to share about your solve so no worries if you cannot share more than you already have. Go get it! Dave

          • Thanks Jake for clarifying that point. I guess I missed an important part of that quote. As most of the Rockies are North of Sante Fe it seems to be a bit of a non hint or clue. Dave

          • Well, at least the “there are many places” was information.

            (as opposed to “there are only several . . . er, wait . . . a few places in the Rocky Mountains where . . . “).

            Jake

          • WWWH = RBIB
            Dal, Glad we have something in common.
            Why not, give it a spin from there & see where it goes.
            The Jack can wait till someone finds it.
            Remember the “right of passage”?

          • Hi Dal, your suggestion of the WWWH being the bathing spot at the Firehole River has me considering the ‘what ifs’. It would be interesting if that is the WWWH because that spot would represents a part of ff’s life when he was quite young. Since WWWH is the beginning of the solve, and also a memory from fairly early childhood, I am wondering if it is possible that the poem (and locations) could represent a chronological walk though different time periods of ff’s life? For example, WWWH is the bathing hole, and then the hoB represents a little older ff when he became a quite adept fisherman (and fishing guide)? From there, ff went into the military and then became a treasure hunter (both no places for the meek). Maybe the blaze location represents the older, and wiser, ff after he became a parent and family man. This is kind of an abstract idea that requires some imagination…and if this is true, I am not sure if this idea would help a searcher find the locations for each of these aspects off’s life. Quickly mapping out in my mind what I might consider with this approach…I might consider the bathing spot (WWWH) then fishing spot (hoB) then spot where old treasures have been found (NPFTM) and then ultimately a family friendly location for the blaze. This is a major reach…I know. It might be interesting if you started a thread on the ‘what if’s for the big picture’ to see what people can come up with for the big picture and what ifs. Something is missing from most (all?) searcher’s solves…and I doubt what I have written above is the missing link…but maybe someone else’s imagination holds the key? Dave

        • Hi Dal: thank you very much for the additional back story on WWWH/YNP and the specificity of WWWH. You were very forthcoming with the gist of this info on your blog years ago, but I appreciate the added context.

          • I was going through last year’s posts in WWWH Part 4 and noticed you had an exchange with someone about the Ouray, CO & the Uncompahgre Plateu. That area was part of my initial solve also, but I set it aside as failing the elevation test (my area appears to be above the 10,200′ line). Is that the reason you dismissed it as well? Yours & Puzzed’s comments actually makes me wonder if it might still be feasible.

          • Hi Macahol: no, the reason I dismissed Ouray, the Uncompahgre and The Million Dollar Highway was not because of altitude. It’s a beautiful area that can be made to fit some of the clues without too much trouble. No, the reason I abandoned it was because once I found the keyword (IMO, of course), Colorado was eliminated.

          • Thanks Zap. It’s pretty remarkable how well the clues for that solve line up with the poem all the way through meek, with the tantalizing possibility that the rest of the poem will line up with the terrain in a BOTG search. But yeah, it’s a little too easy and so many other hints in the books suggest that the treasure is elsewhere. I guess that’s the magic of the poem: so many places seem to be legitimate matches.

          • Hey-O Macahol –

            It is an interesting area.

            Are you considering the Ouray end, or the Unaweep end?

            Jake

          • Hi Jake,

            I hope I’m not violating etiquette by being too forthcoming about my solve (I’ve said elsewhere that I’m unlikely to ever go BOTG – I’m just an armchair fan). My solve is this:

            And hit of riches new and old (San Juan Mountains – google it with “treasure”)

            Begin it WWWH (Unaweep theory, but begin at Ouray)

            And take it in the canyon down (Canyon Creek, which admittedly doesn’t make it all the way to HoB – perhaps a failing)

            Put in below the home of Brown (South side of Chicago Peak, home of Bad Bad Leroy Brown – yeah, a reach, but so are a lot of other Brown solves)

            From there it’s no place for the meek, (Savage Creek is below the south side of Chicago Peak)

            From there it would require a BoTG search. The thing is, Savage Creek heads up to Tomboy, a mining ghost town (heavy loads) and appears to be un-navigable – (no paddle up your creek). The end of the creek is nearby (nigh) and someone could easily park there in several places to go hide the treasure. Of course you would have to go BoTG to find the “blaze.” The thing is, it appears that this area, Imogene Pass, is above 10,200′. On the other hand, if anyone wants to try their hands at this solve, best of luck. All I ask is that you let me know so I can have the satisfaction.

          • Macahol

            That’s the baddest solve in the whole damn town.

            That’s the first mention I have herd of Bad Bad Leroy Brown.

            Has anyone ever heard it before?

            Lugnutz

      • Dal…. have you ever considered that WWWH refers to a place that water only flows, with any strength, during meltoff… I’m intrigued by the Cirwin lodge area

        • Marc-
          In my early search for a WWWH place I considered many options from The Great Salt Lake to Lake Missoula to ancient oceans, glacial melt and intermittent creeks. None pointed me at another eight places..
          But if you are interested in the ghost town of Kirwin look at this story by TomWhat:
          https://dalneitzel.com/2014/10/12/kirwin-search-report/

          And if you use the search mechanism at the bottom of the right column and type in “Kirwin” you will find many interesting comments by folks who had the same interest that you have in that area.

          Good luck! Have fun!

    • I think warm waters halt is the general Madison Junction Area…. Forest mentions many favorite fishing holes that are unknown to many where him and his dad would go alone to fish…. all of them he mentions are in the West Yellowstone area…. Forest also stated in an interview that a person could ride a bike to the chest location…. how would he know this ??? I think he rode a bike there at one time years ago….. recall that he rode a bike to his favorite bathing hole (Firehole) …. his mother died in West Yellowstone…. his family had cabins there, a Motor court there. They were fishing guides there….. one of his biggest Brown trout was caught in Hebgen lake …. Forest stated he already knew right where he would hide the chest….. which means he knew of this place long before he hid the chest…. I think he knew of this place from his childhood

        • DKM,

          We also know fenn moved to NM to [ if i have the correct word for the comment ] ‘Recover’ Start a business, raise a family, even bought a dig site there… when he could have easily moved to the greater YS region.
          I’m not saying that those connection you mention are not plausible at all… But if we take the idea from the ‘book’ N of SF {NM}, In the mountains he hid a chest at a location he wanted to be his last resting place… possibly… in a state he consider to live out is all his days. One can argue NM is fenn’s ‘green acres’.

          My point is… that is just guessing. Pick a stated that we may think is the most likely. Don’t you think that there would be more to the idea… “nailing down the first clue or stay home” than just a guess to which state.

          For me that sounds more like; if we find more of fenn’s finger prints anywhere else… that has to be the place. But it’s funny that the book has a ‘single’ page chapter title “in love with YS” and most of it talks about the ‘trip’ getting there. {if i recall correctly} there’s less than a small paragraph – lines, that mentions anything about YS in that single page chapter.

          Another little tidbit for thought. In the 1930 and 40’s the only reasonable route for a four day 1600 mile drive was to connect a route from TX to a route going North to YS… you had to drive through an area approx. 8 plus miles N. of SF.

          All I’m saying… if you’re going to hang your hat on any stated for ~ “just because” we know of this or that… I just don’t see how we could get the idea of, what took me so long

          But I need to ask; you said, ‘ Forest has also stated that the chest is NOT in a National Park….. ‘
          I haven’t seen that one… do you know where we can look it up?

        • DKM, I agree with you on all points here.I have been searching the Hebgen Basin and West Yellowstone area for a few years now. I just got back from my trip and spent 7 days searching one single spot and still don’t think I have exhausted it. I may be wrong and in the entirely wrong state, but my gut tells me it is there. It is a huge area that could take 100years to search and still find nothing because the landscape is ever changing and undergoes a hostile transformation during the spring thaw.

      • I JUST WONDER if we all caught the punt on how he wanted people to play with the grizzly when their hungry’….’ ‘not;;, nor do i think a 80 or 90 year old man wants to climb a tree to avoid a moose the place is worth a visit. to become a part of the work of SIR Forrest Fenn but its not the safest beginning as the riddle rolls where could he stop to think we all know he loves to do that i may be wrong i visited and loved every secound as i walked through the pages in the book to reach the poem the caynon is there some what the creek is there grayling or close by if i remember right the beauty is there the guard on duty was a eagle i wasnt messing with that guy him and his buddies keep a keen watch on every thing again sence tells me forrest wouldnt want searchers to mess with his creatures of any type what do you think

  2. Seeker
    Yikes I am very tired and I am sorry I used the wrong term lack of confidence is a synonym. sorry my bad

    • No need for apologizes… If i had to do that with every mistake I made… well you get the gist.

  3. I’ve spent 3 days in Stillwater MT on this.
    No luck so far…
    I still got 3 days left.
    I’m willing to exchange ideas.

    Here is why I came-

    Yellowstone (warm) meets Stillwater (halt) near Nye MT( nigh)
    Also …Mt Wood has a Lake Wood high in the mountains( water high) ( in the wood) and has a Woodbrine Falls that leads to amazing fishing….Also this is all in/near Yellowstone ( childhood) and Gallatin Nat Forest area where he got lost with his friend I pretty sure.

    What do you think!

    NO idea on Brown or bllaze

    • Jasmo, that is a beautiful area. We were up there a month ago and the Beartooth Hwy was still closed from snow. It’s nice you can search around there. I’m pretty sure many have searched around Woodbine Falls area; you can probably find their search reports under “Other Searcher’s Stories” (above, far right).

      FF did get lost in the Gallatin Natl Forest, but above Hebgen Lake, up Red Canyon, I believe. Good luck!

    • JasMo66 wrote:
      “what do you think!”
      ———————————————————————
      You say “Stillwater (halt) near Nye MT( nigh)”. I gather you mean Stillwater County or River and the little town of Nye in the southwest corner of the county on eastern edge of Gallatin Natl. Forest.

      Well, I’d say that would certainly help the locals in southern Montana and norther Wyoming. But I doubt that some redneck in Texas has ever heard of Stillwater County/River or Nye, Montana.

      I don’t think Forrest Fenn would be so parochial as to give the locals in any area an advantage over people in Texas, Florida, Australia, or England.

      You also state that all ” this is all in/near Yellowstone ( childhood) and Gallatin Nat Forest.”

      Which is another reason why I would eliminate the area from my search. Fenn has said there are a few “subtle” clues in TTOTC. His chapter “In Love With Yellowstone” is hardly what I would call “subtle”.

      But every summer there’s a stampede of searchers who flock to the Yellowstone, all of them reinforcing each others’ view that Yellowstone has got to be where the chest is. Maybe it is.

      But if so, I’d be extremely disappointed with Forrest Fenn who wants us to use our imaginations. Given the content of TTOTC, the Yellowstone area is one of the most, if not the most, unimaginative locations I can think of.

      Ken (in Texas)

      • The end is ever drawing nigh… I think means to the left …. a place where the water turns left…..

      • Ken TX ~’I don’t think Forrest Fenn would be so parochial as to give the locals in any area an advantage over people in Texas, Florida, Australia, or England.’

        Don’t folks who live in any of the four states have an advantage just knowing that-?- over anyone in FL or out of the country?

        Eventually, for example, If clues start leading someone from CO to a location close to them… is their knowledge of the area going to be more helpful and have an advantage rather than someone from NY? I imagine fenn thought about just this idea.. created clues that are just as difficult for locals to non-locals.
        To simply eliminate a, more or less, known of/popular area doesn’t make the clues easier to decipher [imo]. In fact I would think just the opposite.

        Locals would have different knowledge, that everyone else would think, they’d need to research and study up on just because they are unfamiliar with the area… and so far that hasn’t help, and knowing of local information, folk lore, history etc. may lead to more force fitting [bias confirmation thinking].. rather than.. thinking how the clues truly unfold.

        Searchers, regardless if the were from the area or not, have been on site, deciphered the first two clues [by fenn’s account] and still didn’t know they might have and walked by remaining clues.. and searchers have been near the chest by 200′.
        I highly doubt locals and any advantage to solving the clues… the only advantage I see is just being closer to the search area for traveling convenience.

        Fenn finally stated ‘he followed the clues when he hid the chest’ If knowledge of the area was a huge advantage, why would the guy who created the clues, knows the location like the back of his had, spend more than a decade getting the poem just right … have to follow his own clues?
        And tells all “there is no other way to his ‘knowledge'”.

        Personally I’d be pondering more about that, than if locals have an advantage… or the area is a popular attraction to many.

        • in his mind he probably did he knew how to follow them thats why we have to think

    • Hey JasMo, think you’re on somewhat similar track as I am with my solve. Actually heading to that area a couple weeks from now. Using a little bit different view, I can ‘solve’ all clues, satisfy most all hints, including 200′ and 500’….only doggone sticking point is the distance…mine seems too far, given f’s comments about 2 back and forth trips in a single afternoon….I’m wavering.

  4. I don’t think the fireworks here in W. Yellowstone halted till daylight.

  5. What makes WWWH? A lake or reservoir? Halt is such a strong word it must be heeded. My original solve was Thermopolis, WY. Warm waters thread underground, very deep, where it heats up and surfaces as hot springs. It is unclear whether the water actually halts at any point. The “canyon down” clue lead me to Sinks canyon ( a play on words). We found a fabulous blaze along the sinks canyon wall and many crevices and caves, very thrilling!! But no treasure.

  6. Dal, can we revisit the WWWH as specific location vs region concept. I’ve struggled with this for almost as long as I’ve been on the hunt….for me the best “big picture” place to designate as WWWH in the search area is YNP. I’ve searched and could only find one statement negating this possibility. It was you referencing a conversation you heard between Forrest and another searcher.

      • It somewhere on the blog. Been a while since I read it..sorry. I’ll try to locate it when I get some time. In it you mention that you overheard a comment from Forrest (I assume in verbal conversation) that WWWH is not a region but rather a specific location. Your example suggested YNP was too large a region to be WWWH. I was attentive to this because to my knowledge it has been the only directly conflicting statement with my favored WWWH. Unfortunately I didn’t note where the comment lives.

  7. Yes Redline’s idea of www being a url is very far fetched. It has actually been brought up before. Can not fathom FF doing this but I do want to entertain it just for fun.

    So if the poem somehow told us a url that FF set up. The home page of this site has Brown in the name. This page would be home of Brown. Now there is a field that has to be filled in that will give us the location of the treasure. Would we not be putting in below home of Brown by filling it in. Put the code in the field. Now not only do we get the location but FF gets notified via email that someone put in the correct code. This way he would know somebody figured it out.

    I know it’s silly but when people post silly things I always think ‘How could this work?’

    • continuing with the silliness….

      what if the blaze is the complete url path…..so that once you solve all clues that let you enter the correct path (www.clue2/clue3/clue4)….up to the blaze clue….when you hit enter the the ‘marvel gaze’ is what appears on the screen and quickly down is simply looking down from the url entry to the screen…..which shows some coordinate or something…

      again…pure fantasy here:)

  8. Because cold would indicate uncomfortable, and a delineation from the warm. But hot could also be uncomfortable I believe.

    • LD;

      I have proposed this before, but I believe that warm waters halt where they converge with a bigger body of water. Let’s say that “Tepid Stream” flows down from a geyser. At some point, Tepid Stream meets a larger stream or creek – Let’s call it Big Creek. At the point of convergence, do we now call it Big Creek/tepid stream? No, we just call it Big Creek. As an entity, Tepid Stream ceases to exist – it “Halts” – as an entity.

      ANY stream or creek – whether coming from a geyser or not, will be warmer than the larger body of water that it joins – whether a larger creek or stream, a river, or a lake. In any case, the “Warm Waters” of the smaller body of water will “Halt” when it converges with the larger body of water. Just the way I look at it – you may see it differently – JDA

      • Yep, just thinking like a kid I guess, with my head in the clouds. For a moment thought it might even mean Cloud Peak or Cloud Peak Skyway in the Bighorn Mountains.

        • Who knows – It might, but I like my idea better, but what do I know? – Probably Nada – JDA

        • Planning my first BOTG in couple weeks!!! Very excited!!! Been working on this for over a month. Was fixed on MT and Yellowstone River, but now see it all comes together in the Bighorns of WY:)!

      • And just imagine! If that happened at or near an historic fort, double meaning to halt. 🙂

        • I’m looking at Cloud Peak and the Cloud Peak Skyway area…then started noticing other ‘hints’ in area like a Sitting Bull Park (peace?), Meadowlark Lake, Barnum Brown…turns out the Outlaw Trail (just learned Redford did, in fact, write a book about this very thing) ran right through a canyon in that area. New at this, so all over map…focusing on pulling these pieces together. Sometimes silence speaks volumes…are the bighorn mountains mentioned much in TTOC, I don’t recall much noted about them?

          • Home of Brown. Trout Creek runs N-S and joins up with Paintrock Creek. “Paintrock” literally describes a blaze, and the creek is named for the Indian petroglyphs that adorn the region. No paddle–this area is part of the Nowood river watershed. No place for the meek–Battle Mountain, or Battle Park Trail. Heavy loads–Cement Mountain. Etc. So, how do you make all the lines cross?

    • JDA,
      I’m with you on this point. To quote Forrest

      “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts”.

      So we just need to find which specific one he is referring to.

  9. Let me reiterate my guess… Warm waters halt in the tiny town of LaMadera (The Wood) NM. The waters are the Ojo Caliente River which starts there. Tricky! (The nearby mountains are The Wood Mountains too—if you are brave and in the wood, etc.) Briefly, check a map… The canyon down (south or downstream) is the Canon de la Cueva—close, but far enough away to not want to walk to it, so drive down the road to it. Walk a couple hundred feet down the canyon to the Ojo Caliente River and put-in below the home of Brown. Put-in means cross, and brown trout live higher up the river, but not there… Just across the river a lovely waterfall from a spring fed creek flows over a sheer cliff—certainly not for the meek since you need to get above it—you can by by-passing the cliff to the south. Once atop the lovely waterfall, a sort of semi-desert Paradise is found. The creek which is small and needs no paddle issues from a lovely spring—water high or it the water high the creek itself? From the lovely spring—fairly large, but not deep, the creek vanishes underground and then re-emerges several times. At one point there i s an opening with a rock shelf in it and an odd brown rock sitting on it… The chest? I am old, and I was not used to the elevation and I was at the end of a couple hours of checking things over. I should have checked that rock, but I thought it might be too small—at the time I didn’t realize the chest was small… It probably “is” simply a rock set on the rock shelf for some reason, but I keep wondering if it might be a chest with a covering of adobe on it sitting right out in the open for all to see… I might be wrong about that, but all the clue fit so well, and it is a truly special spot, unlike most places in NM, where I lived and worked in for several years. One other point… The canyon has a fence across it at the bottom, but it might be there to simply keep cows from getting onto the highway nearby. The fence also has a complete opening made in it to purposely allow entrance past it. No signs telling people to keep out, and the assessors office was very vague about how the jumbled property lines meshed there. There are private holdings north and south of the canyon, but the canyon itself is not posted or fenced except the short area at the very bottom that has the opening in it… So another part of the Chase, or not? So much fits so perfectly, that I keep thinking it has to be there… As for the final “blaze”… Look on a map and near that spring is a white circle of mineral deposit—the white blaze? I thought the chest might be in the spring, but he later said it was not underwater… Still, I think that area fits too well to be wrong… If I lead anyone to the area of the chest, I just ask for half for leading you there. Plenty to share.

    • forrest said its not up or down any steep prefaces cant recall his exat words but he did say dont go where a 79 or 80 year old man could not go and its in a safe place so please think befor you jump off the grand caynon

      • When I mentioned LaMadera and the sheer cliff with the waterfall… It can be skirted by going a short distance to the south. At that point, it is easy to climb up to the top of the cliff.

        • Are you suggesting the home of Brown is about fish? I’m curious about Brown being fish because it is capitalized. Many have made the connection, though and who am I to say it isn’t. I don’t have the treasure. Good luck on that one. Is La Madera considered to be in the Rockies?

          • Hi. The home of Brown fits best for the trout with my idea, although there is a brownish house nearby. He says the clues should be okay 100 years from now, and that would be true of the range of fish, but not so much for buildings… And yes, La Madera is in the Rockies, although the local mountains are the La Madera (The Wood) mountains. They are just a small segment of the Rockies. Note: I did notice the capitalized Brown too, but that might just be another one of his ways of creating double meanings.

  10. Why did forest use the word Halt? It’s the only line in the poem that doesn’t end in rhyming with the next. He could have used stop, cease, etc. and rhymes with the next line. He used Halt. Why?

    • Indeed, why?

      In my opinion, most searchers consider the whole “warm waters halt” concept (including the use of “halt” rather than some other word) in a too conventional, orthodox way.

      Again in my opinion, searchers’ imaginations have not improved in the last eight years. Concomitantly, there has been no decrease, that I can tell, in group-think. So searchers keep asking the question >>> why the word “halt”?

      Ken (in Texas)

      • Ken imo halt only means that it stops being warm when it mixes in with a body of cold water

      • Ken: I get the “lack of imagination” about what most people think “warm waters halt” means. Boring, boring, boring.

        • Zap and (fellow Texan) Ken,

          I would acknowledge there is a fair bit of WWWH conjecture here, and on other blogs, and some of it falls short of novel thinking. I’m not convinced “most” is an appropriate qualifier, however. I would propose that “most” of the searchers don’t participate in these public forums at all.

    • A possibility…Periodic Spring near Afton, WY….just read it’s one of only a few intermittent springs in the world. Hmmm…about a mile hike from parking area.

      • Yes, that one is a good one for “halt”; however, the water is cold, which may work for you if you believe ff means warm in an emotional way.

  11. What IF there actually isn’t any “water,” where warm waters halt? I’m trying to think outside the box that Forest told us to get back into…? Like where a foot soldier passed away? Or Native American hero? I’m sure these ideas have been hashed over by some of you old timers. Someone throw us tenderfoot a bone!

    • Jmelis;

      Forrest has said that the poem is straight forward. I would take him at his word. If the line says warm WATERS I would believe him that waters ARE
      involved. I may be wrong, but I would think more about “halt” rather than “waters”. Figure out how waters can halt – THEN think about WARM waters. Waters is the LAST thing to think about – JMO – But for me, WATERS ARE involved – WARM waters are involved, and these WARM WATERS DO halt. – JMO – JDA

      • Water generally does not “halt”, however it can refer to warm waters ceasing to be warm, but then why use the term halt for that? Like if a hot springs flows into a colder river, that does not imply “halt”, rather the waters flow, mix and change temperature.

        • Panny;

          I have posted this a couple of times, so for you have read it, please skip it – sorry.

          If a small stream – Let’s call it “Tepid Stream” flown down hill from a geyser, and meets a bigger stream or river – Let’s call it “Big Water” – At the point of meeting or convergence “Tepid Stream” – as an entity ceases (halts) to exist. Do we call it “Big Water/Tepid Stream?” No, From their point of convergence, we call it only “Big Water” – So, as an entity, “Tepid Stream” HALTED, and was no more.

          ANY smaller body of water will be warmer than a larger body of water – It did not have to originate at a geyser – JMO – JDA

          • JDA, thanks for that, your point is well taken. Still focused on Thermopolis, can’t stop thinking that is it. However there are SO many hot springs and it is very much fun exploring them. Trying to shift my focus and stop being so obsessed….

          • TFTW #37 Treasures Galore – “Perhaps a tepid black bear has topped the hill, or an unreasonable barn owl is on the hunt.”

            Thanks JDA, now I think I know his definition of “tepid”.

            “But the rewards of traipsing through the hills and canyon bottoms are winner-take-all proof of personal fulfillment of me.”

            Dal, do you remember where you took that pic on pg 199 TFTW?
            I would guess Montana seeing Forrest mentions Montana in the chapter & also mentions winner-take-all.

          • I didn’t write it JDA,
            Forrest did.
            “tepid black bear”
            TFTW pg 199

          • I figured he did – I was just questioning what a tepid black bear might be – other than alive and warm – JDA

          • Jake;

            Tepid = warm Forrest said warm = comfortable, so I guess we have ourselves a comfortable black bear???
            JDA

          • How about an unenthusiastic, indifferent, disinterested black bear. That’s how all the black bears I’ve ever come across typically behave.

            They’re kind of like goofy but very likable dogs or raccoons.

          • Hi, Jake; welcome back!
            “Tepid black bear” led me to look up “bear” again. Roots of the word, bear, are Old English ‘bear’ and (I believe you’ll like this one) Dutch “beer”…

          • Lady V;

            Good one – now we’re talkin’ a pleasant dark ale – my. my one just never knows where these things can lead – 🙂 – JDA

  12. Has anyone thought deeply about this clue using “halt” as a transitive verb, rather than intransitive?

    • Yes, I did. I thought “halt” was a transitive verb back in approx. 2015; & I searched several areas based on that idea. The reason I thought “halt” was a transitive verb was because: ff commented something like: my other P.O. Box halted when hot water poured out of my hot water heater . . . these are my own words – this isn’t an exact quote. That comment by ff seemed, in my opinion, to be using “halt” as a transitive verb. What halted? The P.O. Box.

      I no longer base my searches on the “transitive verb” idea, but I remain open to that idea.

      • A transitive use means there’s an object of the verb ‘halt’.

        So warm waters would have to halt something else.

        intransitive
        “Begin it where warm waters halt” – What gets halted? The warm waters.

        transitive
        “Begin it where warm waters halt backpackers” – What gets halted? The backpackers.

        So if you consider “halt” as a transitive verb in that line of the poem, you have to supply an unwritten object – just WHAT are those warm waters halting? To me, that distorts the language sense more than I’m comfortable with.

        Doesn’t make it wrong – just my own answer to Andrew’s question

        Jake

        • But the object would be reflexive back to the understood subject of the sentence, no? (You) begin it where warm waters halt (you).

          • Actually, not necessarily. I’m rethinking that. But the transitive construct is not such a “distortion” that I think it can be discounted.

          • The point is, this interpretation changes the focus of the clue. “Where” is not the point. “What” is the point. Warm waters are not halting themselves; they are stopping something else. What do warm waters halt? And, does that indicate a specific location?

          • I was learned by nuns. 😉

            Chalk-throwing, yardstick-swinging nuns.

            (That’s how I remember it, anyway)

            Jake

        • And what if the warm waters cease to be dispensed, all the while running away downhill, and leaving an empty container?

  13. This is my own take on WWWH. I am sure this has been postulated by many a few over the last several years. Forrest was an ardent angler in pursuit of trout. In the Rockies warm waters are defined as waters that are not trout waters as it relates to fishing. If you consult a “good map” (New Mexico Game And Fish) you can find where the “Special Trout Waters” begin….and WWWH.

    In the days of his youth ff fished in and near Yellowstone. In his Santa Fe years he most likely fished the New Mexico Special Trout Waters….putting an emphasis on the word “Special” as in “A Special Place”.

    His Church is in the mountians by the streams where fantasy plays. I am quite sure there are those who can render the exact quote word for word and have committed it to memory.

    These are my thoughts…and in my opinion may have also been the thoughts of others who were within two to five hundred feet of the TC.

    “A BAD DAY FISHING IS BETTER THAN ANY OTHER DAY”!

    • Hi Guy,
      Does that mean NM is the only state out of the 4 that you can go trout fishing?

      • In fishing regs and descriptions, “warm waters” indicate waters OTHER THAN trout waters.

        Jake

        • Agree here…NM defines warm waters as any other than Trout Waters that are illustrated in a map. So special trout designations don’t alter this….nor does the presence of a dam figure into definition of warm or cold waters, though dams are present of course in some trout waters shown on map.

        • Jake, thank you for the correction, I did mis-speak. What is kind of funny is that the new NM “special” waters definitions all seem to be a version of “warm”…because chile is warm (or hot, as the case may be).

        • We have always used the NM Fishing Guide which has change its info but has not effected our solve. We feel Mr. Fenn picked this because searcher would have reference to go to.
          Whether you use the 2009 or 2010 as the hide date the maps are accurate & always will be. That is why we use them because they are a concrete documents. IOMHO

  14. I’ve been at this for a while…not as long as some, but longer than others, I reckon. I am stumped. Not only stumped, but concerned.

    I spend a fair amount of time thinking and reading about the ‘treasure’. The dreamer in me really, really wants to go out there and hike and poke and prod and turn over logs all day, every day. Been on one BOTG expedition and learned a lot. A BOTG search teaches one many valuable insights.

    I am currently ‘debriefing’ my expedition, trying to either a) solidify my solve, or b) find a better solve.

    But the rational guy in me is really giving me fits.

    Here’s the thing, as ‘practical guy’ sees it…

    The actual location of the box. When one follows the ‘clues’, is the ground under your boots public, private or a mix of both? Did FF consider whether trespassing was a problem or would eventually be a problem?

    In general, it appears that the local property owners are getting tired of the increase in ‘tourism’. (Does anyone actually reveal their intended quest to locals?)

    Since 2010 the world has changed, even in the Rockies. Wealthy folks, retirees, telecommuters are rapidly changing many areas in the mountains. New homes/cabins seem to be popping up in a lot of areas that encompass many of the search areas. Concerns over the new neighbor’s presence and the noticeable increase in ‘hikers’, ‘fishermen’, etc. seems to me to be manifesting a proliferation of new gates, fences, signs and warnings. Many search areas are a patchwork of private properties mingled with BLM tracts, National Forests, etc. (My personal belief is that National Parks and Reservations are flat OUT of bounds.)

    My BOTG trek discovered that so-called ‘forest service’ roads are often gated, fenced and locked. No trespassing signs, private road signs abound…the topos don’t show the extent of gates/locks in the mountains.

    Is this what FF envisioned? Armies of searchers pissing off the locals?

    Sadly, like all fun things, I think the ‘chase’ has snowballed into a clusterfetch…

    I would like to find the chest. I am ‘meek’ in that I respect the rights of property owners and will not disobey their warnings and that seems to impede my solve in particular.

    Then there is this…if FF’s intent was to take his last breath where the chest is, whose property are his bones on? Public? Private? His own?

    I am torn.

    • It’s not on private property, not on Fenn’s property; it’s on our property.

    • Good concerns!
      Don’t worry, be happy!
      Mr. Fenn kept it legal.
      Walk legally, and you are good.

      Clearly Clueless

  15. Eaglesabound….no….. trout are in all the four, however, some seekers are hooked on New Mexico for a myriad of other reasons other than the WWWH. I guess I am in that league and so somethings may seem quite bias…..and they are!
    Now here are two questions for you.

    A) Can you share what you believe is WWWH?

    B) Will you show your cards…..What state do you believe the TC is hidden….notice I did not say buried.

    • Yes Guy,
      A) I can share this about WWWH. IMO, f describes it in detail in TTOTC.
      B) The treasure is located in the state f told us it was in , Colorado!
      IMO of course

      • Eagles- yes the treasure is in Colorado…and Montana…and Wyoming….and New Mexico.
        the chest is in Wyoming though.

        I think.

          • Eagles- thanks for bringing attention to the fact that the dodo is extinct. Forrest wrote that humans should leave each other alone and do a better job of taking care of the planet. I agree, and so does the Draper museum of Natural History. there is a display there dedicated to teaching this. so when you visit the Draper to take the chest and go in peace, please spend time at this display. tell ’em Dodo sent ya.

  16. Howdy again Eaglesabound -others

    Can you expound on the who,what, where and date of when ff extolled that the TC was in Colorado. I am in the dark….light a candle please. -guy-

    • Sure..
      Inside the first page of TTOTC. .. He put it right there in front of our noses.
      One horse land and cattle, Colorado

          • Like everything in the chase – it is all in how you interpret it – Good luck to Ya’ JDA

      • Eaglesabound,

        That’s a stretch with Co (company) to mean Colorado, I guess any abbreviation could be attached to a state, or even Why could mean Wyoming or (mountain) abbreviated could mean Montana.

        Just food for thought.

        • Just a small correction, it’s capital C And capital O, that’s CO. .not Co….
          In the book it’s CO..

          • Hi Eaglesabound,
            Have we all forgotten the story about Olga and the Tea. The three colours, Green, Black, Red point directly to Yellowstone Park. IMO.

          • Jeff, you posted:

            Hi Eaglesabound,
            Have we all forgotten the story about Olga and the Tea. The three colours, Green, Black, Red point directly to Yellowstone Park. IMO.

            I haven’t forgotten the story about Olga. And I don’t
            remember seeing that the word for the beverage(s) was
            capitalized (as in “Tea”). But I believe that FF is very
            careful with his use of capital letters in his poetry.

            How do you figure that the three colours point directly
            to Yellowstone Park (a fictional name, it appears)?

          • tighterfocus,
            I’m not at home to check my notes, but earlier, in one of the blogs a searcher came across the fact that those colours were the primary colours of the Pendleton blankets made for Yellowstone, early on. I checked this out and he was right. Food for thought.

          • Jeff C;

            Others have pointed out that in the chapter – “Tea With Olga” – every color in the rainbow is mentioned. and a few more –

            Red – Red tea
            Orange – Bright and sunny
            Yellow – Chamisa
            Green – Tea and Ponderosa groves
            Blue – Great Mountains or sky
            Indigo – Mood turned somber
            Violet – Mountain Laurel and sage

            Beyond the rainbow

            Black – tea
            White – Clouds
            Brown and white – Oreo cookie and snow

            “Every color under the rainbow – and then some – JDA

          • Yes the CO is capped but so are all the other letters in the titles
            ONE HORSE LAND & CATTLE CO.

          • Eaglesabound: a more compelling case can be made for Colorado in that both the state abbreviation and the full state’s name are scrambled within “ONE HORSE LAND & CATTLE CO.”

        • Zap –

          Colorado would be contained in

          One Horse Land CO
          One wouldn’t need the cattle.

          Lugnutz

          • Hi Lug: I was just pointing out that you can get Colorado plus CO with the full name. There are a lot of left over letters, so it isn’t a very compelling anagram.

  17. How about the Gallatin River. It’s headwaters flow out of Yellowstone. Where would those waters do you think come to a halt. And if you were using that river where would someone put into a creek.

    • Hi Jeff C
      I can make those colors fit any state. …IMO, there’s nothing imaginative about Yellowstone…

      • Eaglesabound,
        Thanks for the reply. I’m glad you can fit those colours to any state, it’s one less searcher in Yellowstone.
        Have you solved why ff said “it’s between 5000ft and 10200ft? That also points to Yellowstone. IMO.

        • Good luck to you Jeff C…
          Obviously we are both steadfast in our belief as to where the treasure is…

          • Wildbirder,
            Had to reply here since your message has no reply button..
            I believe that was Forrest clever way of disguising the abbreviation for Colorado. Since He used lower case everywhere else.

  18. Let me add my two cents worth on a bit more about “where warm waters halt”. In my mind I think he hid the chest within a short radius from his home—a few hours drive at the most, and in NM. When he gave no clues as to where it might be hidden to start with, people probably thought about NM as much as anywhere else, and this was probably correct to my way of thinking. When he noticed how people were searching, he decided to limit (or expand) the region to the areas now listed, perhaps to help limit the search, but perhaps also to draw attention away from areas nearer to him.

    I find it more plausible that the chest in much nearer to him than others seem to think… He has hidden a treasure worth a great deal He claims to know where it is and nobody else, so on any trip he took with anyone, they should be suspicious… Wouldn’t it be easier to take a much shorter drive in NM by himself, and then be back for supper? And there are paper trails… Entry permits to get into parks. Receipts for motels or gas. None of those things would have to be considered if he hid things locally.

    Having said this… Yes, he could have hidden the treasure far to the north, but I doubt it. Where warm waters halt… The Ojo Caliente River (The Hot Eye River). Rivers “halt” at the top and bottom. The starting points on rivers is often vague, but the Ojo Caliente is formed by the confluence of two other rivers. It has a definite upper “halting” point in the town of LaMadera, NM. I know others have mentioned this link before, but virtually everything fits like a glove with the clues and in such a short distance from that starting point. I mention my “solution” elsewhere here. If anyone gets to LaMadera, I can’t help but think you will come away with more of an idea that this is the area than not. Anyway, my guess is still NM, not some distant point. Thanks for listening to the rambling.

    • i agree… he would keep it close… but if I’m playing devils advocate… the technology existed when he hid the treasure chest to track it via gps… units are only as large as a pencil eraser… he comes off like he’s not confident tech-wise…
      but he’s sharp as a track

      • GPS or any other transmitter is unlikely as it would need a battery for power, & that wouldn’t last long.

  19. John – I agree with what you said about the tc being closer then far away – not far but to far to walk tells you that – im like you I think its in n.m. imo

    • Again, only a guess, but in my mind I think he hid it in NM. Then in time he saw that people were either looking near his home area, or simply didn’t look at all because the world is too big… By mentioning the Rocky Mountains, he limited the search area, but also got rid of many who only checked near his home area. Killed two birds with one stone. Again, just my theory.

  20. John….I must concur with you. The RIO OJO CALIENTE halts (stops, ceases, ends) at the RIO CHAMA. The Rio Chama is some of the best world class trout fishing. Going “canyon down” takes you past The Ghost Ranch ( No Place For The Meek) which borders the Rio Chama. When TTOTC was was written is was written in New Mexico and distributed at a local bookstore.
    When the map appears in TOO FAR TO WALK expanding to include Montana, Wyoming, and
    Colorado as possible places where the TC was
    hidden ( note I did not say buried ) , it is my
    personal belief the map was a Red Herring
    including the Rocky Mountains to serve the original purpose of getting kids and families out to experience the Great American West.

    The TTOTC was written in New Mexico…distributed in New Mexico…book signings New Mexico…Fennborees, New Mexico….Special Trout Waters ( WWWH) …NEW MEXICO!!!

    • IMO – Written in NM because that is where Forrest lives – Not important
      Distributed in NM because that is where Forrest lives – Not important
      Book signings in NM – ditto
      Fennboree held in NM – ditto
      Special trout waters – Other three states have excellent trout fishing also –
      All-in-all – SO WHAT? NOT important – Use your imagination – JMO – JDA

    • Personally, I think all of the clues are straightforward, but with double meanings. Warm waters halt… yes, the Ojo Caliente, but it halts at the “top” too, in the town of LaMadera. That is the starting point. The “canyon down” is the Canyon de la Cueva, show on most maps. Go down the canyon and “put in” (cross the Ojo Caliente). No place for the meek, is a sheer wall with a water fall going over it—-and water high is the water above the falls… All this is in a very short distances… Everything has double meanings. I think the map was made to draw people away from NM, but also to give them reasons to search other places. All theory, of course.

  21. The Hatfields & McCoys

    I find no pleasure in attacking others on the blog.
    The case of New Mexico being the resting home of the TC, WWWH, HOB, NPFTM,
    and The Blaze,
    including NFBTFTW it
    seems to be worthy to
    search.
    WWWH ….They halt at “Special Trout W
    aters” as defined by the use of terminology from the New Mexico Game
    & Fish use. The use
    of the axiom of “Warm Waters” by NMG&F is tell-tell!
    Thought For The Day: “Put No Stone In Another Man’s Path”

    Happy Hunting To All, Keep Safety As Number One And Reap All The Treasure Along The Way! -guy-

    • Guy;

      If you thought I was attacking you personally – I apologize.

      I was merely disagreeing with your suppositions. I found them weak – but that is just me. You very well could be correct, and I very well could be wrong.

      Isn’t the purpose of the blog to offer differing ideas? If everyone agreed with everyone else – not much would be discussed. JMO

      Again, it was NOT personal – I again apologize if you took that way. – JDA

    • Guy,

      While you make some good connections to NM, you might consider these words from FF regarding WWWH.

      There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.

      If warm waters are “special trout waters” are nearly all of those waters/rivers located north of Santa Fe?

      • IMO, yes. Special trout waters are actually considered cold waters though. It’s where the boundary is relating to where the cold trout waters/warmer(non trout) waters meet. Here is the map http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/download/fishing/maps/Fishing-Waters-Map-RIB-2018-New-Mexico-DGF.pdf.

        Since FF specifically states “in the Rocky Mountains” then yes, nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. BUT, BUT.. logically speaking, since New Mexico has only a small % of the Rocky Mountains area it seems no matter what you are referring to; be it squirrels, cats, dogs, trees, rivers ANYTHING will be more in number North of Santa Fe.

    • Halting is temporary… by definition something halted will resume…IMHO WWWH is a place where warmed meltoff waters seasonally halt….

      • Has anyone ever explored the possibility of “Heavy loads” referring to Streamload rather than some large object or objects…. right now the Pecos has very heavy loads… I’m sure there are others but I’m researching from the east coast… getting current info isn’t easy for me… thank God they don’t charge for Googling… lol

  22. KK….Yes…I agree there are many WWWH in the Rockies. New Mexican fly Fishermen are familar with the term “warm waters”. Trout can not survive in warm waters due to the increased water temperature. Trout streams are cold….”your effort will be worth the cold”….”begin it where warm waters halt”.

    • Tiffer/Guy

      Thanks for the information. I like to fish but am not well informed on the subject. I follow what you are saying regarding the trout warm/cold waters now. Much appreciated!

  23. Thanx KK…..” and heres one more for the Tiffer”!!!

    By networking we can solve this thing….Imagination is a very big nation…together the collective from fields and vineyard hasten to solve the poem….we can do this!!!!

    • YAH for the positive attitude. I am only 5 months in and haven’t even nailed down the state! The fact this has gone on for years boggles my mind as I now will be using all the brain cells I have left to try and figure this out! (for years possibly!) Living in this concrete jungle called Houston doesn’t help either.

      Back to topic…. We fish ALOT here in Texas. And for FF to be such an avid fisherman I just can’t shake the feeling that warm waters is not an “ode” to his love of fishing. Although I have not figured out WWWH yet, I am also leaning towards the smaller streams/rivers ending at a deeper (colder) body of water. All IMO..

      • Tiffer,

        I’m in Houston too, if you’d like to discuss solves with someone local 🙂

  24. Guy Michael,

    This will not be solved collectively… But I appreciate your optimism!

    I am the NM searcher… who has figured out WWWH (Oh I think so)…

    Best of luck to everyone!

    –Fennatical

  25. Fennatical….go for the gold…this camp believes also in “Power to the Self Propelled”!!!

    Solo or Collectively this poem can be solved….”da sooner da better”!!!

      • What makes you think that Butch? Every search season we hear the cries of the “Isolvedit Birds” 🙂 – JDA

        • I won’t speak for Butch, but his gut feeling, imo. And that it hasn’t been found yet, bodes well for those with searches still to come.

          As for his wavering gut, I think maybe someone went out to search/recon their area but didn’t search very thoroughly for whatever reason (maybe it was part of a family vacation and less a dedicated search trip).

        • JDA,

          You may well hear this every season, however this is my first season and I haven’t been effected by the ‘Noise’ getting in my way imo, I will be booking my flights soon.

      • Butch- the poem says to take it. not collect, not retrieve, not gather up, not claim, not get.
        take means take, a photo. nothing more.
        I think.

  26. OK, I’ve tossed back a couple Hornitos this evening, so let’s cut to a really-out-of-the-box analysis. What if “halt” is not a verb at all? What if “waters” is the verb and “halt” is a direct object? Subject-transitive verb-direct object. Warm waters halt. Hmmmmm…

    • Andrew…back to the instransitive verb notion – Fenn recently said his gut feeling was “wavering”. …in the intransitive form “waver” is synonymous with “halt” . Fenn is playing us and we’re like the trout in Yellowstone – even though we have a PhD in Blue Midge Dun we bite anyway. Not sure who is having more fun – the player or the played. Either way, it’s a lot of fun.

    • I applaud your out-of-the-box thinking. Some will be needed for a good solve, but I think FF intended that a teenager would be able to solve the poem . . . so I
      think it’s not quite that exotic.

      But please don’t give up. If all 9 clues are well-supported, you may have a winning solve. Good luck.

  27. Interesting concept … but perhaps too complicated. Who knows? Thanks for some original thinking!

    –Best regards

    –Fennatical

  28. Forrest said this:

    “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts”

    So, I take this to mean that there are many similar starting points in the Rockies to finding the treasure. Some south of Santa Fe.
    Our mission is to find which particular starting point Forrest is referencing. Apparently this has been easier said than done.

    • Richard- when I look at the big picture I see Yellowstone Park. there are no shortcuts in Yellowstone…you must travel the main roads.

      I think.

      • dodo,
        I get that. I keep coming back to Yellowstone also. I’m not sure the chest is hidden inside the park. maybe just outside.

        • Richard- the chest of the poem is not the bronze box. and this chest is at the draper museum in cody, wy.*

          I think.

          see: my fun, safe, side trip.

  29. In my opinion warm waters halt where a river runs into a lake,dam or reservoir.
    Halt means temporary stop, not necessarily a change in temperature.

  30. WWWH decrypted by an opinionated searcher (myself and others) is related to fishing…. cold/warm waters are used to define what is or is not trout waters. Two of ff book covers ( TFTW & OUAW) are in your face front covers showing a trout stream……and a line drawing by forrest of him fishing.

    The word HALT is a military term. After years of
    being exposed to that jargon it could very well
    be used to mean Stop. The DOD (Dept. Of
    Defence) dictionary will shed light on the use of
    Halt.

    There are maps that show the “Warm Waters” in
    New Mexico from New Mexico Dept. Of Game &
    Fish. Warm Waters are NOT Trout waters.

    To paraphrase……Begin It Where Trout Waters
    Begin. Where warm waters halt is where trout waters begin.
    Happy Trav’lin

    Thought For The Day: Happiness Is Not To Have Arrived, But To Have Traveled Happily
    Note: As far as I know no other state other than New Mexico uses ths terminology of Warm Waters as it relates to fishing and has publications entitled “Warm Waters Regulations”

    • * * * * Guy M proposed – “As far as I know no other state other than New Mexico uses this terminology of Warm Waters as it relates to fishing . . . ” * * * *

      It’s an understood distinction in fishing, regardless of state.

      http://www.coloradofishing.net/ft_yampa.htm

      From the above:

      “The flyfishing varies as much as the terrain. The Upper Yampa holds *cold-water* species whereas *warm-water* species are found downstream at river’s end. Somewhere in-between, the two meet with opportunity to fish for trout and pike in the same river spot.”

      (“River’s end” for the Yampa is where it joins the cold water of the Green River at Steamboat Rock in Dinosaur Nat’l Monument.)

      Jake

      (just an observation, NOT necessarily an endorsement for this interpretation of the phrase in the poem)

      • I admit I don’t know the Yampa well, but I have fished the upper section (stagecoach res) and parts through town. The interesting thing for me is that a ‘cold’ river such as the Yampa (snowmelt from the Steamboat Springs area) can meet another ‘cold’ river (little snake, fed from snowmelt out of the sierra madres) and yet still turn ‘warm’ sometime downstream…however, if you look at the geology/geography as it flows toward the green you get a sense of how it can turn warm (desert anyone!). At any rate, keep in mind fishing regs are guidelines and nothing is black/white, fish move throughout a river, warm/cold species can be found anywhere…under the right conditions (drought/warmer summers you may see warm species way up river from ‘normal’, and similarly, in a cold/wetter year, you may find trout way away from ‘normal’ areas).

    • Wwwh- extinct volcanos. C’mon guys, catch up already. This thing is almost ending…. even in HS cross country I stopped to help other runners. Sorry forrest, I like shopping at Walmart.

  31. Jake….thanx for the link. In some states you will not find any viable wild trout populations as all the waters are “warm”. The Land Of the South Wind (Kansas) only has trout that is introduced annually for fishing derbies or short term trout tournaments.Trout can not survive the temperatures of Star 34.

    This not an endorsement of Jake….just a thank you for your imput Jake.

    • Yep, I coulda been clearer, Guy. What I meant was that in the context of fishing, warm-water and cold-water fish would be understood in all four Chase states, not just New Mexico.

      (The Yampa River example I gave was exactly the WWWH I used in an early Green River wild goose chase.)

      Jake

      • This is true, I had a small place near Denver that had a description of ‘warm water’ species on its webpage, unfortunately they updated it and it no longer uses that phrase, it does still list the species (which most fisherman would know are WARM species)…also, it is a lake…in fact most of the smaller lakes/reservoirs on the eastern part of the search states (CO and WY I know for sure), depending on depth and source of infeed water, support ‘warm’ species…but ‘natural/wild’ is a misnomer after 100+ years of management…wild trout always makes me laugh…they were all born in a hatchery, but certainly have to grow up in the wild.

        • Tbug & J A Kraven,

          Just a tidbit of information, trout prefer water at about 50 degrees F and below for a good habitat. Trout don’t like a habit and usually can’t survive where the water that is warmer than 65 degrees F. Past that lets say water that is warmer than 70 degrees F one will not find trout as it is a death trap.

          There have been trout fishing tournaments in warm water where they have been stocked just for that purpose and trout quickly disappear in that environment.

          Just say’n with what I have known over the years.

  32. Jake….reading you loud and clear. Sorry for the wild goose chase. Here is a platform for a new book.
    WILD GOOSE CHASES / SEARCHING FOR FENN’S RAINBOW

    93,759 pages

    Hundreds upon Hundreds of photos of the
    Rockies

    Five Star ratings on where NOT to stay

    Five Star ratings on the best craft beer in four states.

    Full page ads of purveyors of survival gear with
    bear spray coupons good for 100 years.

    Stories of Bullwinkle Moose (Mr. Know-it-alls) claiming that the treasure chest was there…but somebody got there first.

    Each book could be numbered and one lucky number holder could win
    a) A TTOTC LUCKY COIN
    b) A Wild Goose Chase Tee Shirt
    c) A Framable Wall Map / Color Coded
    Where The Treasure is Not
    d) Lexicon of every word Forrest Fenn has spoken in the last teen years

    Bound in simulated alligator skin & bound to be a Best Seller.

  33. I believe when Forrest is talking about where warm waters halt, he is talking about the Continental Divide. From the divide the cold waters run east and the warm waters run west. Not many people know about that.

    • I thought the same thing for quite some time. But ultimately, I think for it work for the actual WWWH you’d have to be at the actual “Parting of the waters” and it just looks too darn far to have gone there twice in an afternoon. IMO.

  34. Upstream, oops I mean upthread, JDA wrote:
    “If a small stream – Let’s call it “Tepid Stream” flown down hill from a geyser, and meets a bigger stream or river – Let’s call it “Big Water” – At the point of meeting or convergence “Tepid Stream” – as an entity ceases (halts) to exist. Do we call it “Big Water/Tepid Stream?” No, From their point of convergence, we call it only “Big Water” – So, as an entity, “Tepid Stream” HALTED, and was no more.”
    ——————————————————————————————————–

    JDA, your theory is fine, as far as it goes. But it doesn’t give searcher a specific location, separate and apart from all other Rocky Mountain examples of “tepid stream”. There must be hundreds, even thousands, of “tepid streams” that “halt”.

    How do you decide which “tepid stream” is THE specific location for the first clue?

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Hi Ken (in Texas);

      I have stated before that I thought that “the wood” has a very obscure definition, that when understood, identifies a particular geographic feature in Wyoming. Figuring out the correct WWWH once you locate the geographic feature is pretty easy…. well, fairly easy. – Hope this helps a little – JDA

      • JDA
        There’s alternative meaning for “in the wood” that I picked up on a YouTube channel today, apparently it can also mean ‘on target/bulls eye’.

    • Good observation Ken. Remember what Forrest said . ”

      There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts”.

      So, which specific one is he talking about?? That’s the elusive question. For which I have no answer for.

      • I used to think that “the big picture” was, although quite big, a lot smaller
        than any of the 4 individual search states. But considering a lot of hints,
        as *well* as FF’s love of nature and the outdoors, “the big picture” may
        refer to the entire planet earth. And I won’t be surprised if this idea
        receives a rather “chilly” reception. All IMO.

  35. To have the correct WWWH you must also know where the correct HOB is. They are related. In an interview f said the his grandson Shiloh lives with them and his room…get ready…this is important….Shiloh is living in Peggy ‘s old weaving room.

    Theres the connection….RACHEL BROWN….Rachel lived in Arroyo Seca.

    The Taos Wool Festival has been going strong for the last 35-36 years. All weavers are aware of the contributions made by Rachel Brown and Southwest Weaving.

    In my observations it is aire apparent that what happens in Santa Fe…happens in Taos…and again what happens in Taos….happens in Santa Fe. Again in my opinion Peggy & Rachel knew each other.

    MY OPINION: RACHEL BROWN = ARROYO SECA / THE HOME OF BROWN

    • Guy- excellent work.
      that will lead you to the treasure, I’m sure.
      but the chest is somewhere else.

      I think.

      • dodo bird,

        I completely disagree with you that the chest and the treasure are in different places. I’ve seen you post on more than one occasion the separation. How did you determine that they are separated?

        • CharlieM- easy, the poem says chest. and in TTOTC Forrest states following the poem precisely will lead to the treasure.
          two different things.

          I think.

          • “Treasure & Chest are one”
            so says Randy Johnson. but not Forrest Fenn.

            I think.

          • yes he has. Forrest has stated that the chest is ancient and valuable (i forget the exact amount, $20,000?) Therefore the chest IS treasure. The other treasure is inside of that treasure, so they are one. “Treasure” includes everything.

          • Dodo;

            You say: CharlieM- easy, the poem says chest. and in TTOTC Forrest states following the poem precisely will lead to the treasure.two different things.

            Using your line of thinking or logic – You are saying that the “chest” (The bronze box) is one thing that has to be found, and that the “Treasure” is then something else that needs to be found – just lying on the ground somewhere – NOT in a container. Doesn’t this seem a bit silly? – Does to me. JDA

          • you still got it wrong JDA. the chest is not the bronze box. the chest of the poem is a large wooden box. the treasure is the great outdoors. and the bronze box is exactly what Forrest says it is. all three are different things.

            heres one for ya to chew on JDA- why is it that any photo of the bronze Romanesque box has no caption?
            think about that one.

          • Forrest gives us the dimensions of the bronze box…10″x10″x5″. barely bigger than a cigar box. why would he do that?

            so understand that by definition the bronze box is not a chest. lol

      • JD –

        If you are not familiar with Mr Dodo Bird I will explain briefly.
        The chest of the poem is a wooden chest on display at the Draper Museum. To find out where the Treasure is you “take the chest” and go in peace. You Take a Photo of the chest at Drape and then send it to Fenn. Then, presumably, Fenn will tell you how to proceed to the Treasure.

        Got it? Good!

        I literally do not participate at Mike’s blog because what ever anyone says about a clue or a theory, Dodo just comments that the chest is in the draper museum. I would like to suggest that you refrain from engagement.

        Oh, why doesn’t he have the treasure? I’m not sure since he sent the pic of the chest to Fenn a loooooong time ago.

          • Lug- “Fenn will then tell you how to proceed to the treasure”

            your words, not mine, not Forrest’s.

            also Lug I have found the treasure (great outdoors) many times. its the bronze Romanesque box I do not have.
            thank you.

          • it’s fine by me dodo…the proof is always in the puddin’. this Chase is lot’s of fun for me…and everyone believes what they believe. carry on…

        • Thanks Lug

          I went to the thread dodo suggested – The post itself says NOTHING! Dodo’s comments, well, I will be kind and say that they made little logical sense.

          As I said, Good Luck dodo – I don’t see the logic, but that is OK – We all have our own way of solving the poem’s riddles – Thanks for the input Lug.

          I only visit two blogs – this on and Jenny’s (and once in a while Cynthia’s) JD

          • hey JDA- ill ask for an update from you. why is it that any photo of the bronze Romanesque lock box has no caption?
            examples: treasure chest, chest, treasure, trove, bronze box, Romanesque box, book of days box, family bible box,indulgence etc.

            why none of these captions on any photo?

          • dodo;

            That is a question that you will have to direct to Forrest or his publishers. JDA

          • JDA- I’m too dumb to ask Forrest anything or his publishers.

            here, i’ll tell you why there are no captions….so that forrest may give that bronze box any name he chooses, at any time. (subject to change)

            I think.

          • dodo;

            Pretending that you are dumb is just a ruse. You are far from dumb. JMO – JDA

    • WOW, well thought out Guy, what brand of coffee do you drink, maybe crank it down a notch in the morning’s!

    • Guy –

      The connections of artists named Brown to Forrest Fenn run much deepr than that. I don’t want to go nuts with a Brown primer here but there are several other artists in both cities.

      I guess for fun I will remind you that the woman who acquired Leon Gaspard and everything else for Fenn Galleries and subsequently for Nedra Neteucci is Ann Brown. She lived out on Agua Fria road west of town.

      • Lugnutz
        That’s a very interesting possibility and more likely than an very obscure solve, cheers.

        • WC –

          Definitely a structure and surrounded by other structures.

          If there is anyone named Brown associated with this clue I will be shocked. Shocked that Fenn created such a simple clue.

          We say rabbit holes for a reason.

          Lugnutz

    • We’ve all got an opinion, there’s no need to shout it out in capital letters or we’ll end up with everyone typing in caps.

  36. There is a country and western song called “Why Didn’t I Think of That?”

    We’ve got to figure out what we are missing because we have all missed something that would be Eureka! for sure.

  37. It’s been three weeks since I ordered TTOTC and have been anxiously awaiting to receive it in the mail, so all I have had to go off are the poem, ff’s comments, and getting bogged down in the blogs.

    My 9 year old niece clued me into an interesting path on WWWH. However, this particular geologic feature is pretty rare, and given ff’s comments, there are “many” places WWWH north of Santa Fe, and most of my features seem distant from West Yellowstone, so I don’t believe they are accurate.

    Prior to asking my niece, my initial thoughts went to Ojo Caliente Spring, Madison Junction, Hebgen – just as about a million other people’s have. Given that ff was saying only a few years ago, that only a “few” or “two” people had solved the first clues after receiving thousands of emails, logic (but not my heart) tells me that none of these must be the correct WWWH.

    Since I don’t have the book yet, most of what I’ve seen online has pointed toward MT/WY (his childhood stories). So my first real question: I have no knowledge (and would love an explanation) of why many people choose New Mexico, other than “convenience” (because it’s close to where he lives now), or the definition of “warm waters” in the fishing regs? If we assume his redneck from TX is a fisher, than maybe WW isn’t specialized knowledge. But to this land-lubber, it seems to be.

    And my real question. Given that ff has many times said that a few/many/several/two/some, etc people have figured out the first two clues, and (ditto) were within 200 or 500 feet of the chest. Is it safe to assume that if I “solve” the 2nd stanza in its entirety, I would definitely be within 2-500 feet of the chest at maximum? Also, given that I don’t have the book yet, and am missing several helpful hints, for you professionals out there – how did you come to your WWWH? Can you (maybe with knowledge of the entire poem, but) just with the second stanza alone, narrow down to your location? Or do you need the whole poem, or other parts of the poem to determine WWWH?

    Sorry this is so long! I’m amazed that with thousands of different people looking, more consensus hasn’t been created to some of the clues. ff did/does a pretty amazing job at keeping it vague and difficult to parse!

    • It’s not safe to assume anything, in my opinion. But here are some thoughts.
      Either warm waters cease their motion (halt) in some place where a searcher
      should begin, or warm waters cause halting, regardless of whether they halt.
      You could try thinking about this. A sentry halts visitors, right? Or it could be
      that both apply. The poem may have enough layers (like an onion) that the concept of crying may also play a role in solving the poem. All IMO.

    • Hi Misfit, You asked: ….” – how did you come to your WWWH? Can you (maybe with knowledge of the entire poem, but) just with the second stanza alone, narrow down to your location? Or do you need the whole poem, or other parts of the poem to determine WWWH?

      Early on I thought NM because of a sentence (a hint?) that FF put in a very BOLD place, in the first paragraph of the PREFACE. … “Nevertheless, the story about my treasure chest is true, and if it doesn’t STIR your SPIRIT, then I hope at least it brings a SMILE in one of your DREAMS.”

      STIR = move round and round in a circle
      SMILE = an arc, a segment of a circle (possibly lower half)
      SPIRIT & DREAMS = enchantments.

      The Enchanted Circle, NM.

      Frankly, I find hints for all four states. After 7.5 years, I am still undecided. Good Luck. OS2

  38. Misfit22

    Welcome to the Chase, I hope you don’t mind if I give you some advice, firstly none of us are professionals, if we was we would have the treasure in front of us, secondly DO NOT ASSUME ANYTHING in the Chase, it’s a very slippery slope to go down, and lastly there are some very strong characters on this blog and if your a newbie like I was this year then the best thing you can do is get off here, wait for the book to arrive and go to , Tarry Scant .com where everything on there is Mr Fenns words ONLY and not any second hand comments that can confuse you/us, if I had joined here before having a VERY solid solve I would of been influenced otherwise and I’m no shrinking violet!
    Lastly if y o u already have WWWH then is almost definitely wrong.
    Enjoy and remember what Mr Fenn said ‘ Its the thrill of the chase’ 🙂

      • Thank you JDA I like to think you had maybe just a pinch of influence in that advice I gave, I hope your well my friend 🙂

    • Ya ‘ta hey-o, Misfit 22 –

      Note too that there is a very wide range of opinions on the utility of “hints” in the chase, and even wider divergence on “how many” and “where they appear.”

      I for one think they’re few and far between, and am skeptical of anyone’s ability to tell a hint from an aberration. At the other end of the spectrum are those who think (for some – to me inscrutable – reason) that aberrations are in fact the rarest and most prized of all hints. 🙂

      Others I’m sure will chime in from other parts of the spectrum.

      Enjoy!

      Jake

      • It may be that “spectrum” is a hint. (If you find it in a dictionary, look
        through the page, and see a drawing of a speculum, don’t say I didn’t
        warn ya. I don’t think FF expected that kind of tool to be necessary in
        finding the place where warm waters HALT.)

        • HA! That’s not any worse than digging up outhouses! I can say firsthand, in my line of work; they don’t halt NOTHING! HA. You gave me a good idea of what to leave in the Little Cache if I ever go BOTG. (just joking)

        • There certainly are a lot of artists pigments and tea colors mentioned. The cobalt blue on P.125 always stuck out to me. It isn’t the first pigment I’d reach for a river bend (but I can’t draw let alone paint). Are there any artist who could clarify?

    • Water in the Rockies can be cold in July. So can bronze, especially if cold water is touching it.

    • Air temperature decreases with altitude, approximately 1 degree C every 100 meters.
      The alitude of the treasure is between 5000′ and 10200′ so say it’s 7500′ that is approx 2300 meters which means that the temperature will be approx 23 degrees C below the temp at sea level.
      If it’s a comfortable 23 degrees C ( 73.4 degrees F) at sea level then it will be 0 degrees C at 7500′ which is a freezing 32 degrees F.
      That’s why ff says “Your effort will be worth the cold” because of the altitude IMHO.

      • Thank you for the generalization(s). A good solve will be better than one
        that is only a general one, in my opinion.

        • My post re altitude is not a generalization, the fact is the temperature gets colder with increased altitude.
          That’s one of my reasons for choosing altitude rather than cold water as the meaning of “Your effort will be worth the cold”
          I have other reasons, including a quote from FF
          What’s your solve for that line?

    • Ben- the air conditioned Draper museum is cold in July. well, as opposed to being outside. cold and dark to preserve artifacts.

    • Sudden rain and hail thunderstorms are a daily feature all summer many places in the Rockies.

      And there’s still snow on the ground somewhere in the Rockies below 10,000 feet into August.

      Why people are up in the mountains, and rafting and splashing the rivers and lakes in the summer – to beat the heat.

      Jake

      • Jake – oh no love, you’ve placed searchers swimming in freezing waters again. please dont do that.

        • LTD done that, dear, not me.

          It was a hunnert fahrenheitin’ degrees up here last week. They musta been pullin’ steamed clams right out of the surf down at the seashore.

          Jake

  39. Could halt be a lower case acronym like cop (constable on patrol)?

    Pinatubocharlie

  40. – Begin It where warm waters halt. – The first things I read is how FF said a middle school child could solve this puzzle and that someone had to start with the first clue. I know many of you have spent years studying this poem and know much more than me, but here’s my thoughts. If you take off the WWWH of the first line, you get the letters which can be arranged to spell out – Start Here: (and possibly) Laramie GBT (maybe Greenbelt Trail) Coincidence that Laramie is same longitude as Santa Fe. Brown def fits with Melville Brown, the university and even Big Brown the copper TRex. I have many more ideas, just wanted to share a few thoughts in hopes in may help someone else.

  41. Hello all, I’m another newcomer to the Chase. It’s unlikely that I will ever go BOTG, so I consider myself to be a “remote” participant and therefor don’t mind sharing all of my ideas (none of which are likely to be novel anyway). Also, sorry if I post any redundant ideas: I haven’t read through all of the prior comments.

    So I’ve noticed that plenty of people have come to the same conclusion about WWWH that I have: the absence of the word “the” suggests that it is where ALL warm waters halt instead of a particular hot spring or stream. Hence 32 degrees is my starting point. We know that 32 latitude doesn’t cut it as it is at the Mexican border. However, has anyone considered trying to convert 32 to something else? Germanium is atomic # 32 on the periodic table. Fenn does use the phrase “Praying thanks to Thor” on Pg 32 of TTOTC, which is a Germanic god. Unfortunately, I didn’t come up with any obvious place names with the word German in them in the search area, however. So perhaps that idea is a reach. Are there any other ideas out there for converting 32 into a place name?

  42. I had posted this to Iowaengr on “CC or ww” but I thought I’d put in here under WWWH just in case it makes any tumblers click in anyone’s brains….

    Good one iowaengr.
    Say “Waters Halt” 10 times fast (like a kid might) [on a side note maybe that’s why Forrest told Dal not to mess with his poem by changing the word halt]. Are you saying “Salt Water” yet? A bit like flutterby & backed up by HMAALG. Then we also have Waters plural so Two comes to mind. So Two Oceans is looking pretty good. Plus Oceans are warm waters in my opinion. Is it the lake, the glacier, or the plateau?
    – my learning has plateaued. my learning has halted. might point to the plateau. This one has the added bonus of the “Well, Here’s Moses” parting of the waters connection.
    – Halt or I’ll shoot! Freeze! might point to the glacier
    – I don’t have one for the lake but the lake has this going for it: CD NF “Jackson”. Could it be a HoB? Jackson Browne? So put in on the Snake below Jackson. FTINPFTM – (utilizing kid stuff again) who’s afraid of the big bad Wolf? Wolf Creek……then yada, yada, yada…treasure chest. (Sorry I ran out of solves at Wolf Creek unless Alpine/Alpine junction could be worked somehow into water high and end is ever drawing nigh might be the Idaho border [biddies]). Hope it helps someone somewhere, the area is vast and me and my search partner’s BOTG rate is limited to a minuscule fraction of it but I’d love to see it solved this summer.
    A couple of other things I really like about TO’s is Forrest, when talking about World War Two, said (WW=2). He’s also said if you don’t have this one play Canasta which utilizes 2 decks of cards. The binoculars guy at the golf tournament seems to have Cassiopeia hanging above his head – W’s with bi=2.

    • I didn’t have a Halt for Two Ocean Lake earlier but started thinking that Lakes don’t have tides like the oceans so the tides have halted. That got me thinking about King Canute. I can pull his anagram from JTTCAGIP.

      I also started thinking about Joe Sixpack – lost his job, has a wife and twelve kids. Sounds like he’s Running on Empty

      • Funny, I hadn’t thought of the 2 Ocean Lake angle, but tend to expect that the “blaze” is likely to be some sort of marking on a mountain that lines up with where the treasure like an arrow is when you get to it. The example that came immediately to mind was the cut that runs up the front of the Middle Teton. Supposing Jackson Hole is the canyon you take down from 2 Ocean Lake, perhaps if you can figure out the other clues in between, you will find the treasure when that distinctive Middle Teton gash comes into view. Far fetched? Yeah, but so are most solves 🙂

  43. This solve was posted on the Reddit site a few days ago which sparked interest. I specifically like WWWH and how the next clues flow well.

    forrestfenntreasurechest.wordpress.com

  44. To Jake just saw note . I not sure where treasure coast is?. We search New Mexico. Was planning a trip but money got in way. Hubby broke a bone in his back way way back in Jr high. He is shoving 70 & need to have back fused.

    • wildbirder- the treasure coast is the east coast of Florida. Jacksonville to Miami where Spanish ships wrecked usually during a hurricane carrying Spanish treasure back to Spain.
      but don’t take my word for it.
      I’m a dodo.

  45. Something I’ve been thinking about lately (this may have already been mentioned, but I’ll humbly post anyway) is the fact that there are three or four qualifiers in the WWWH clue.

    1. Where
    2. Warm
    3. Waters
    4. Halt

    So, in my opinion, whatever place a person comes up with for WWWH must meet all four criteria. A place where (a point/a region/etc) AND a place which is ALSO warm/friendly/comfortable/etc AND a place that meets a water criteria (river/lake/feeling/etc) AND also a place that that something stops/converges/freezes/etc.

    However you define “warm” or “waters” or any of the other criteria, this spot must include ALL these qualifiers, instead of just one. I was thinking about this because I see many solves where a person finds a place which has a name to do with “warm”, perhaps, but they have nothing to do with “halting”, and so on.

    In this instance, I believe that there are four qualifiers for a single location, which is quite a lot of information. If you further believe that the comma means that “AND take it in the canyon down” is connected to WWWH, that adds additional qualifiers:

    1. Where
    2. Warm
    3. Waters
    4. Halt

    4 1/2 (“in”, maybe?)

    5. Canyon
    6. Down

    I’m sure this has been discussed before, but I’m just writing out loud because I’m stuck at the moment.

    Best of luck to all.

    • Hi Blue;

      I agree with you about the four qualifiers. The spot must relate to a place (where) Warm Waters (Must include water, and be “comfortable”) Halt (Come to a stop or converge).

      I then interpret the “And take it in the canyon down” as saying that once you have found the place where warm waters converge (with something) you must then go down a canyon some distance. Do the “Warm Waters” converge with a larger body of water, like a larger stream, a river, or a lake? If so, take this larger body of water down the canyon – some distance.

      That is how I interpret it anyway – JDA

      • Hi JDA,

        I like your perspective. I oscillate between thinking just the way you just described, and also thinking “take it in the canyon down” means:

        Find where warm waters halt, and then (down a ways) is a canyon.

        or perhaps

        Find where warm waters halt, and run south, until you hit a canyon.

        or

        Find where warm waters halt, and then the warm waters flow south either through a canyon or to a canyon….

        I’m an interpreter so even though I think some of these solves are more likely than others, my brain can’t NOT think of other possible meanings. I have a few other ideas, but it gets redundant, haha.

        Thanks for responding 🙂

        Blue

        • Blue;

          There certainly are a lot of possibilities aren’t there?

          Good luck in choosing the right ones – JDA

      • Where do you get “convergence” related to “halt”?

        If a sentry orders me to “halt”, I don’t look for something to “converge”
        with.

        • Hi TigherFocus,

          I am not saying that I personally think that “halt” means convergence. I’m not saying I wouldn’t entertain the possibility, either, especially when I’ve got no better ideas at the moment. My point was just various examples for the word “halt” and the fact that whatever you personally believe “halt” means, your WWWH would likely have to include all three or four parameters (depending on if you include ‘where’ as a parameter).

      • I think you drive down the canyon and a road is considered not a human trail. If FF said people have solved the first 2 clues and they also have been within 200 feet, then at some point at canyon down you have to stop the car and you are within 200 feet

    • Isn’t it interesting that in The Searchers – New Mexico True Stories video (2/4/2015) Forrest says: “If I was standing where the treasure chest is, I’d see trees, I’d see mountains, I’d see animals, I’d smell wonderful smells of pine needles or pinon nuts, sagebrush, and I know the treasure chest is wet.”? Of all the things he says he’d see and smell, the one thing he does not mention is water. He says he “knows” the treasure chest is wet, but he doesn’t specifically mention SEEING water. For a poem containing the words “waters,” “Put in,” “paddle up your creek,” and “water high,” do you find it surprising that he didn’t include it in his scenery visible from the chest?

        • I’m interested to know why Ken? I have thought it odd that he did not mention water as well. Maybe that is not the view he is taken in while standing where the chest is, yet still getting wet from the water?

      • I think he meant ‘wet’ as in a fly fishing term. A ‘wet fly’ to lure a fish or treasure hunter. Or, its in the Wet Mountains of Southern CO.

      • No, not surprising. It’s a tourism promotion video featuring a local notable, intended for a wide audience.

        He was being scenic, not diagnostic.

        **** the Santa Fe New Mexican (7 feb 2015) – “. . . in an interview with The New Mexican, Fenn said, “That video didn’t have any clues. It might influence some people to come to New Mexico, but I don’t want to give the impression that I am giving that as a clue because I am not.”

        “Fenn said if the treasure were in the wilderness, of course it would be wet. Just because the video shows a river, that doesn’t mean the chest is underwater.

        “And he said he erred in mentioning piñon nuts. He really meant pine needles.” * * * *

        Jake

        • Hi JAKe: I guess I can buy that. There was no requirement/expectation for him to be all-encompassing in his description of what he’d see. Water is so ubiquitous to the places he would favor in the Rockies that perhaps it would be as absurd to him as saying “I’d see air, I’d see ground”

          • Zap,
            IMO It could just me that when he is standing at the location there are tall trees or rocks between him and a stream, river, or lake. It’s there, he just can’t see it from that angle.
            -B

        • I don’t think we should continue to dwell on the pinon nuts thing,
          as FF used “or”. He could have said, instead of “pinon nuts”,
          “Warsaw residents”, and the meaning would have been as valid.

          The above is part of my opinion.

      • To me personally, I could see one interpretation of “no paddle up your creek” meaning a dry creek bed, and thus the whole first bit being something like “Find a river, it goes down into a canyon, and then you stop at a certain point and move up/down a dry creek bed” etc. This would give searchers who believe that WWWH is referring to literal water a way to explain that the beginning is actual water and then as you progress, you move away from the original source, and the chest is found away from that water source. This would work with the fact that he doesn’t mention seeing water when he imagines the spot. However, he could just as easily not have mentioned water at the spot because it’s too big of a clue, or it’s a metaphor, or he just assumed that most places nearby have water so it’s not a defining feature, etc. SO many possibilities, but I like the way you think. I guess we won’t really know until the treasure is found 🙂

    • I also agree with your first 4 qualifiers theory and believe canyon down is purely descriptive of direction/path once you know where to begin. The biggest key to this puzzle is unlocking WWWH. There are hint(s) that help you identify it in the poem if you can figure out how to define the hint(s)…It’s all in the poem, IMO

      • Interesting. So you think “canyon down” is simply a confirmation that your WWWH is correct? Do you see it as “where warm waters halt and are taken in the canyon down” but you, the searcher, don’t necessarily need to GO in the canyon down? I could see that.

        • Blue

          I think CD is a directional/path clue telling you how to proceed from WWWH. Does that answer you question?

      • The hint may refer to the letter “i”. Please note that it’s not capitalized
        in this posting. In any case, the hint is a small one. All IMO.

    • It’s the waters that are warm (i.e., comfortable, perhaps). The location could
      be pretty unfriendly (possibly near a “no place for the meek” area). But I like
      the fact that you brought up the idea of the qualifications. IMO.

      • I like “warm” as “comfortable” as well, probably my secondary or tertiary solve for WWWH.

        The only thing I don’t like about it is the fact that comfortable, like ‘warm’ or ‘hot’ is how relative it seems. For example, I live in Texas and am miserable in anything over 75, while my friends enjoy sitting on patios without shade in 100 degrees. Conversely, I enjoy camping in sub zero temperatures, while they loathe anything below 65. So my only issue with that solve is that it’s so relative – how to know if what is comfortable to one searcher is comfortable to another. I suppose Fenn could be going off what HE considers comfortable (I don’t like that idea because of the ‘level playing field’ we’re supposed to have), or it could mean comfortable like “friendly” or “soothing” or another word that, itself, means comfortable. I have no idea, but I appreciate your thoughts!

        • I believe warm waters is describing only inhabitable waters. Basically, any water that is not frozen or too mineralized for human entry. This could be hot or cold springs, lakes, rivers or other bodies of water that are “inhabitable.”

          To answer your question on the canyon down from above, I think there are 3 categories for clues. They reference one of 3 things: location, direction/path or distance and I would argue that any “clue” referencing distance may not be a clue in Forrest’s book even though we commonly include these.

  46. I like the idea of the Firehole River being WWWH because of the story in Forrest’s book. Many people think that it’s where the Firehole runs into the Madison, but I think that’s over thinking it. What if it’s just where the hot water from the geyser that runs into the river is where warm waters halt. In his book he talks about bathing in the Firehole where a geyser runs into the river and all he needed to do was move a few feet if the water was too warm. Maybe that spot itself is where warm waters halt. That’s just my opinion and thought I’d throw it out there.

    G~

    • G
      It’s a good and well used WWWH location…Just as is Madison Junction…
      Problem comes in trying to follow the rest of the clues from there…
      The nearest Canyon down is several miles from where Ojo Caliente pours its steaming water into the Firehole…and then there is Firehole Falls for a “water high” but what about HOB and NPUYC and NPFTM…how do they fit in???… the area has been scoured and scoured for clues…for eight exciting years…. and no one has ever been able to match the clues to the places along that stretch of geography…
      So folks look for something better..

  47. One of the ideas I’ve had in regards to WWWH is/was Cuba (NM). Warm, as in friendly, and the history of the Cuban Missile Crisis. The history wouldn’t be specialized knowledge per se. One might consider Los Alamos with the same idea.

  48. Poem Theory and Thoughts….

    True Story – I lost my car keys when I was younger and I remember looking for them for two days. That means retracing steps and going thru everything I could find to see if they were “in there.” When I finally found the keys, they were inside a fast food bag I threw in the trash can. I put them in the food bag so I could carry everything inside with ease after unlocking the front door and forgot to take them out before discarding the bag after eating. It wasn’t the first trash bag I searched either, they were found in the second one. Now, this seemed obvious to me when I finally found them, but before that moment, it was a goose chase. I feel many searches have gone this way and unfortunately the keys haven’t been found yet. The difference is I had the benefit of knowing where to start and exactly where I had been, but it was still a very difficult search! My point is without knowing where to start (i.e looking in the wrong bag or desk drawer or whatever) I’m afraid many of us will waste our time. I can look thru a 1000 trash bags but if I’m not looking in the right one, I ain’t finding those keys and even if I do look thru the right bag, I still need to be thorough and smart or I may miss them and the bag (and keys) is off to the landfill…

    Now consider this: What if I decided to give my car away thru a contest and I hide those same keys in an object inside a trash bag and challenged anyone to find them with a set of instructions. The only rules of engagement are to use my instructions and no breaking and entering into the wrong place. To make it fun, let’s say I made a rule that I had to do it without specifically using the term trash bag or anything obvious, but the instructions had to lead to the exact spot of the keys. I would have to provide a pretty descriptive set of instructions explaining not only object and the bag, but also the room, the house, the city and state at a minimum.

    This is what Forrest did….The poem needs to be approached in this way. Every clue matters and every hint in the poem is just as important. Each hint provides necessary information needed to identify clues such as a hint identifying the correct WWWH because there are many WWWHs north of Santa Fe. Every clue is a filter used to narrow down your search area once identified correctly and that’s why Forrest says to follow the clues in order. Its like using a map and zooming in until you are staring at a blade of grass. Each clue zooms in for a better snapshot of the playing field starting with the first clue until your feet are basically standing on the football field where the chest is hiding. It’s up to you to get the last 10% of the poem figured out at ground zero.

    Of course, Just IMO 🙂

  49. The fire hole is a good possibility. home of Brown. What if Brown is a color. any color.
    The grand prismatic spring. colors of prism. or rainbow. if you could mix them right you would get Brown. home of Colors.
    apollinaris spring in Yellowstone. mineral water drinking spot early years. warm and
    tasted bad. but everybody stopped to get a drink.

    • Actually the colors from the prismatic spring, and the colors from the rainbow are caused by mixing light, and if you mix all those light colors, you get white, not brown.

  50. Ok, Open question…
    WhatIF Where warm waters halt is; too far to walk?

    It’s not a new theory. Some have said there’s no real need to start at WWH, but more likely start at hoB or even a later clue [ physically ]. The problem seems to be; they still want the “suggestion” of NF,BTFTW to be ‘from WWH’.

    Basically I’m saying / suggesting; we still need to know where the clues start from, but it’s too far to walk, passing all the clues to get there, we simply “put in” -start at- hoB… which in this scenario is before WWWH, the canyon down… and it [wwh] is “too far to walk” but still not far away.

    This does two things in thought. It can expanded the area of the clues, yet makes the location of many of the later clues closer and nearer to where a searcher enters the location. And eliminates the guess work on how far from WWH to hoB must we walk/travel… we don’t walk it or drive it or rent a horse, we need to figure out hoB at the correct location of the correct WWH… beforehand.

    Q&A / interview ~ ‘If you knew what hoB is why would you be concerned about WWH?’ {reverse engineering question}
    And… ‘If I told you what hoB is you’d go right to the chest’ { recorded interview }.

    I don’t like the idea, to be honest… because it make WWWH a simple starting point clue of an ‘area’ to locate the other clues, rather than a clue that is so important that if we don’t have it nailed down, might as well stay home.

    So, in this line of thinking… I see a problem… How many hoB references could there be in the RM’s? Only one? or could there be others of the same reference / idea?
    Is it possible to locate the correct hoB without actually having the WWH nailed down?
    It seems more of a guess, but is it possible?

    Now a second thought; “from there” would be considered “from” hoB, is no place for the meek reference… and this is our actual physical start. So NPUYC and “just” HLnWH all refer to WWH and the canyon as well [ as a description of wwh and the canyon down]… leaving hoB being “no place for the meek” or connected to the same reference in such a way as they are inseparable. In which case “put in” could have a double meaning… a “physical presence’ start of the clues” and an “ending point” to the location of the trove.

    Your guess is as good as mine, But in the above theory, the idea is that; the line that has everyone screws up on could relate to wwh and the canyon as not needing to physically be there, just knowing of it.

    LOL Ken from TX, Zap [ and a few others ] will have a field day with this…
    The difference is, NF,BTFTW is not about hoB but more about don’t go to WWH, to physically start… we should know WWWH is beyond the physical search needed location, and stanza 3 is only a description of what is around hoB. {wwwh, canyon down ‘Just’ HL n WH}

    Ouch! That seems to imply only one place to go out of all the places described in the poem… that can’t be right, right?
    Does that have all the lines crossing?
    Does it marry the clues to “a” place on a map?
    Does it show most clue references as places?
    Is it followed by the “instructions / directions In order within the poem? {some may cry fowl or foul with the last question}.

    Dissect away……….. it’s only a WhatIF for the line that seems to have all wondering about is all directions.

    • Hello Seeker. How does the comment about the little girl across the sea work with this thought?

      • PD,
        I’m going on the assumption she or anyone else didn’t have everything she needs.
        Example… She only had a very large map of the US RM Range.

        If the question used GE, I have to wonder if the answer would have been different.

    • W O W Seeker – you said a mouth-full with this post.

      If I understand, you are saying that WWWH, the canyon down, hoB, the “Meek place”, HLnWH could all be seen as one entity – One “Location” if you will.

      You then say that hoB (Whatever that is) can be seen both as a “Beginning” and an “End” – Very Interesting. As crazy as it sounds, I can almost make it work in my search area. HUMMM!!! You sure can get a feller to thinkin’ – JDA

      • I have mostly thought that wwwh and hob are identified by finding a wwwh and a hob that are connected by a too far to walk canyon down.

        lots of each, so they must confirm each other

    • Seeker,

      Grammatically speaking, it makes sense since wwwh and tftw are in the same sentence. -Put in below the hoB stands by itself. The rhyme of the poem makes us think that the description of lines 5 and 6 must be at some (too far to walk) distance from the hoB but that is not necessarily what the poem says grammatically.-

      • Oz,
        You seem to be thinking the same thought as me. The rhyming of the poem make us think certain lines and words must be connected just because they rhyme.
        {when I set the poem up as sentences only, the reading of how it may unfold seemed much different, when looking at is as a track to follow}

        Put in ~ can be considered ~ start here, and if correct, than stanza 3 is only a description of the waters action down the canyon and “just” HLnWH refer to wwwh as a searcher moves towards hoB { and if going past that spot, will continue to WWH }… all being shown to us from hoB… then hoB is no place for the meek in reference as well, and the location of the blaze.

        The clues are seemingly followed in order from what is being explained /seen/known of prior on a map, line of thinking.
        Only most, if not all, will physically start at WWWH… That could be too far to walk IF the theory is correct and hoB is before, as a searcher moves towards WWH where they think they need to be and start a physical search… but, the poem seemingly is saying ~ WWH is too far to walk to…Yet, not far… only start [put in] at hoB.

        There is a slightly different thought to NPFTM…. IF Put in below the hoB happens to be the blaze… the WWH, canyon, HLnWH is also considered NPFTM. Again, meaning no reason to go there because its TOO far. hoB is where we need to be. So, no place for the meek relates to; don’t go where an 80 yr old carrying a heavy backpack can’t… don’t travel the canyon, don’t go to WWH, just put in at hoB.

        is this what fenn meant by following the clues when he hid the chest… know of them to only location the troves’s home… where they blaze is located. I have a hard time with that thought, to be honest. But yes, the rhyming of the poem does seem to push the reading in a different manner vs. reading the sentences.

        The question still remains; Why is WWWH so important to nail down or stay home? Is it the only way to know of fenn’s hoB?
        Anyways… the idea is to attempt to understand why folks didn’t know they had the correct first [ couple ] of clues, and manage to go by all the other clues not knowing, and be so close to the chest… all seemingly stump at NF,BTFTW.

        LOL, I will never think that an exploration of this poem requires driving or alternative transport [ if we are in the correct location ]… for me it should be a matter of how fenn is showing us the layout of the land, and exactly where to be at.

        The two comments above seem to say, imo, “home” is where the trove lays in wait.
        Only, the comment that fenn “when he hid the chest’ followed the clues, indicates to me it should be all the clues… So I’m not thrilled with this theory, but it would explain what NF,BTFTW could refer to.

        • Seeker

          I can’t post an image so you have to make it.

          Take a sheet of paper.
          Draw a circle.
          Place 8 X’s anywhere at any time.
          Draw lines across from one x to another striking the middle.
          You have 4 lines crossed.
          You don’t need 4 lines to cross, you only need two. Therefore you only need get 4 spots correct. Unless you off. To check you add two mores x and see which line the new line crosses. If it crosses in the same spot as the first two, you’ve done it. If not, you need to more X’s and the fourth line.

          If you knew where HoB was, you wouldn’t have to worry about WWWH.

          • I think someone will get it soon thanks to you. Hope your going to check this out as well

          • I don’t understand your logic or reasoning about the circle,
            X’s etc. But I agree with your statement about HoB.

            However, if you don’t have WWWH figured out (or at least a great guess for it), you won’t be able to know where HoB is, unless somebody who knows tells you. That’s my story and I’m “stick” in to it. As always, IMO.

        • Seeker;

          Your last three paragraphs are quite interesting. Sure cuts the size of the “Search Area” down a lot doesn’t it? – No driving or alternative transport through “indicates to me it should be all the clues”

          Reminds me of an OLD solve I had many months ago – with a slight deviation at the end – Lots to think about – JDA

        • This makes sense because ‘in below hoB’ matches “look quickly down your quest to cease”. It indicates that the hoB is some high point, a ‘blaze’ that can be seen from a distance.

          • (Anything you see is seen from “a distance”.)

            I believe that the real blaze can be seen using google
            earth, whose satellite camera probably is *well* over 100
            miles above the elevation of the salty waters of the seas.

            As always, IMO.

          • I am going to sing an old song again – “Which blaze?” I still believe there is more than one blaze.. Blaze #1 (for me) CAN be seen from GE. Blazes #2 and #3 can not. Many will think me a fool, or think that I am craze. That is OK. Time will tell how crazy or how much of a fool I am 🙂 JDA

      • Seeker,

        So -Put in below the home of Brown- will be described (or referenced) by no place for the meek and the end is drawing nigh. The no paddle creek, HL and WH references back to wwwh and canyon down, thus the semi-colon cause it separates two different elements. Sounds good, let me think about that some more.

        That previous post made me put together a few thoughts. We are just theorizing here and maybe off base but some of these things are important to explore. The rhyming scheme confuses the reader, but also does the 4 line stanza structure. Another mistake is counting clues while we read down the poem. We can’t forget that ff only counted the clues when he was finished with it. He knew the place in his head, no need for a map or a list of 9 ‘things’ to include beforehand.

        So he wrote the whole poem down as a unit, contiguously, putting one foot down and stepping on it. Every word is deliberate, not all are important but can’t discount any of them. Once ff was finished, he decided to identify how many ‘things’ the reader will need to decipher in order to get to the exact location. He could do it because he wrote it and he understands it. Not that it conveys a message but because it is ‘like directions on a map’.

        That to me means that there must be important words in each of the 24 lines to consider. Also, the punctuation must be important to understand the layout. He could’ve used poetic license and remove all commas, periods, semicolon, etc.. Like he did on the recent scrapbook, but he didn’t. So at first, we should keep that in mind when reading the poem. Later, once the clues are known/solved the punctuation becomes meaningless I suspect.

    • Hi Seeker:

      “How many hoB references could there be in the RM’s? Only one? or could there be others of the same reference / idea?”

      I would say there are thousands of reasonable possibilities, which is why it’s not a workable starting point.

      “Is it possible to locate the correct hoB without actually having the WWH nailed down? It seems more of a guess, but is it possible?”

      Too borrow Forrest’s words, theoretically — yes, but not likely in practice. It’s throwing a dart. It is not possible to “nail down” home of Brown on its own, any more than it is to pick the right blaze. In my opinion, WWWH is the only clue that can be solved stand-alone, and I think that’s pretty much by Forrest’s design.

      • If WWWH is solved, it’s not “stand-alone”. It starts as a guess, and will depend on compatibility with subsequent solve(s) of subsequent clue(s). Your use of “stand-alone” seems like a tease that *point*s to a small area that is not as large as a typical McDonald’s restaurant. But in fact, my solve, in which I have a large degree of confidence, can work by using a WWWH location that is relatively large (dare I
        say “huge”?).

        As always, IMO.

        • TF,

          I have to respectfully disagree. The directions provided in the poem yield a big hint as to the correct general location and the correct canyon down. IMO.

          Pinatubocharlie

      • Hi Tighter: the main point I was making was that in my opinion WWWH is a unique spot, can be deductively solved (rather than guessed), and does not depend on subsequent clues. Sure: once you’ve got it, the subsequent clues provide ample support that you’ve correctly deduced WWWH. (At least in my case they do.)

        “Your use of “stand-alone” seems like a tease that *point*s to a small area that is not as large as a typical McDonald’s restaurant.”

        No tease intended. It’s just a point on the map. As for the “size” of that point, that’s debatable. (“How deep is a hole?” comes to mind.)

        “But in fact, my solve, in which I have a large degree of confidence, can work by using a WWWH location that is relatively large (dare I say “huge”?).”

        A huge WWWH doesn’t sound very actionable as a starting point. Also, we have second-hand information from Dal that Forrest once told a searcher that WWWH was a specific place and not a region.

  51. if you are coming from santa fe going north wwwh is as far north as you can go- on that road- from there you have to take it in the canyon down- in order for you to get on the right road -that will let you continue north- at the dead end of no paddle – hob is south of no paddle – from there all the clues are north of hob or put in below . – there is no other way that you can go- but through wwwh that to me is the gate way to the clues . all this is my opinion

    • The ‘threshold moment” in Stout Men may be Fenn’s ‘leaving by the back door. ‘ Several back doors & side doors to think about if you are not a poem purist.

  52. Good reminder to marry the clues against each other in close proximity to geographical areas. Like checks and balances.

  53. Another place where Warm Waters Halt that lake fishermen would know about is the “Thermocline” (probably already discussed but I didn’t see it with a blog search).

    After ice off, lakes “turn over” and then stratify

  54. There have been discussions of the fall turnover and maybe thermocline was mentioned, maybe not.

    This comes up whenever New Mexico chasers insist the fishing regs of NM guarantee the TC is found in the pecan State.

    • This guy Mack Chase(Mack Energy) is the largest exporter of pecans to China. My guess is he voted for Trump. Stay out of his trees.

      • My wife’s aunt is from New Mexico on the border. The family has a pecan farm. A few years ago they sent us a Qusker oats cannister full of choice pecans.

        Those were the best nuts I have even eaten.

  55. Zapphod:

    You said yesterday,

    which is why he (and Travis/Kettle Corn) have no chance until they figure out the correct WWWH.

    I’m not sure where you are getting your information. But I don’t think I have ever given my WWH Solution publicly, I have shared it with one person. So please refrain for speaking for me and my searches or my solve. I can say this I will be happy to share my WWH and how I got to it. But please don’t speak for me or draw conclusion that is based on nothing. You know nothing about me my solve ior my searches.

    • Travis: apologies, then. I assumed you and Jake were on the same page with your solutions (thus the ugly laundry aired out here). If you two arrived in the same general final area by different means, then obviously your WWWH’s could be different.

      • No worries. I have no clue where Jake has got his starting point his WWH. No hard feeling and water under the bridge or better yet water over the dam. Which with that said is a very good description of my WWH.

  56. Zapphod

    which is why he (and Travis/Kettle Corn) have no chance until they figure out the correct WWWH.

    Please don’t speak for me, you have no idea where my WWH. I have never shared publicly, if you care to know I’ll share where. But do not assume anything about me.

  57. Has FF ever addressed whether, or not, WWWH might not be in the state where he did the treasure?

    • Well that’s just silly…as silly as Forrest going to a Borders bookstore. Oh, that’s right…he did:)

      I like the way you think, Bob.

    • Bob, one could answer “yes” or “no” to your (“yes” or “no”) question, which probably would not much help you solve the poem. Would you like to ask a more specific question?

      And by the way, “did” could have multiple meanings. It could relate to the poem’s line “I’ve done it tired . . .”

      In the world of gangsters, if someone asked “Who did Dillinger?” , this could
      mean “Who killed Dillinger?” . . .

      (I’m not gonna go into detail about other meanings of “doing” someone.)

      I’m also not going to assume you meant something other than what you posted.

      Thank you for posting. I want to compliment you on apparently staying polite and civil with your postings. As always, IMO.

  58. Never addressed it Bob to my knowledge.
    Start there & let the poem take you where you think it leads you.

  59. Something is telling me that BWWWH is in fact a glacier. Where warm waters have halted. Just thought of that. Had always been looking this day and age

    • Brian,
      I’m not sure what’s telling you that BWWWH or BIWWWH is in fact a glacier.
      Warm water doesn’t freeze until it goes through the transition to cold.
      If the poem said Begin it where cold waters halt, then I may buy it.
      Someone once told me to put hot water in the ice tray cause it would freeze faster than warm or cold water.
      Where is the physics in this?

      • A pre-heated ice tray will melt the accumulated ice in a freezer that is
        not “frost-free”. By doing this, a “nest” is created for the ice tray, and can
        provide faster heat transfer away from it. Modern freezers that don’t have
        this ice accumulation won’t be subject to this “advantage” in “nesting” of
        the ice tray.

        You have questions; I have answers. For years, I was focused mainly
        on solving the poem. Now I want to branch out a bit. As always, IMO.

        • OK,
          Thanks for the explanation but that doesn’t count for the extra heat in the freezer when it melts the surrounding ice & now that has to freeze as well.
          Illogical.
          You will need more British Thermal Units to get the job done.
          I won’t comment on this subject anymore seeing it doesn’t fit the chase. Sorry I mentioned it.
          Freeze out!

    • Brain,
      The problem with Glaciers is the comment ~there are many in the RMs… nearly all ‘are’ N. of SF.
      Which seems to imply now, as to past centuries.
      The second problem is the first two clues being solved with folks telling fenn where they were etc.

      However… IF, big if, the only remains of an ancient are needed to be understood and the “canyon” must be solved with the first clue… the canyon is the part were we can physically be at, with the idea of what created it… or the need to nail down wwwh, line of thinking. And there are some areas below SF that had a glacier… but you’re talking a long time ago.

      My problem is that folks went looking for WWH and told fenn their theories… So, should a glacier from the past be factual, I don’t see how those searcher wouldn’t know they got it correct. Unless they jumped ahead [ time ] too quickly and looked for clues only in this date and time.
      Maybe more imagination is needed for other clues as well.

      Begin it where in time vs. begin it , where warm waters halt, line of thinking. The fact the fenn used waters [ plural ] and water [ singular ] can give the impression of, lots of waters that are of a frozen stated [ no matter how hot or cold the “liquid” is at the time of freezing ] or covered by 2 miles of ice, vs. a single body of water…

      “just” HLnWH does give the impression of a single Ice sheet involved with a single canyon to know of. The time period is of no place for the meek, and creek meaning narrow passage with no paddling sound like what archeologist call an ‘ice river’… a lot of the poem give this impression, [ your effort will be worth the cold – could mean the cold climate the clues represent ] but again, folks went looking for a reference to WWH and deciphered that correctly [ in fenn’s comment ] It’s really a hard pill to swallow if WWH represents the Glacial Period, and folks couldn’t make the correct connections from that idea., while more have figured the first clue[s] out.

      Trust me, I have tried to make this theory workable… but I’m not putting much hope on it.

      • Sorry Seeker – I think that there IS a way to make it all work together. It DOES take a bit of imagination, but I think it CAN be done – But who Knows? Forrest does, but he ain’t talkin’ much – JDA

        • When I post on this blog, I use only one handle. I don’t know how much talkin’ Forrest has done lately on this and/or other blogs.

          As always, IMO.

  60. Yes I know by he does hint of riches new and old right? I think we have to think deeper into the clues. That’s why it hasn’t been found yet. He did have 15 years to rewrite his poem. I’m just grasping for straws.

    • Yes he does say And hint of riches new and old.
      In the first stanza and may be a hint for the first clue but I don’t see the connection to a glacier.

      I suppose the glacier theory could be old water that’s frozen and locked up for thousands of years and is melting now as in new but I can’t get around the quote by Fenn about many being north of Santa Fe unless we consider south of the equator.

      I’m not going there because the Rocky Mountains don’t extend down there in the southern hemisphere name wise.

      • I agree about the southern hemisphere being “out of play”. Depending who you ask, the Rocky Mountains start and end in different spots, but it is generally agreed that they begin in New Mexico and end in Canada. I’m sticking with the 4 generally accepted search states of Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico.

        In my current thinking, the first stanza hints at where to look for WWWH and it points with lots of arrows toward Montana. Consider:

        When Forrest was an active pilot, he was not a commercial pilot of big planes with a flight crew of several. He usually flew alone (even if accompanied by other aircraft.) Where did he go when he flew? In to the big sky. Montana is known as Big Sky Country.

        Forrest often went into YNP alone, which could be Wyoming, but parts of YNP are also in Montana.

        “Treasures bold” suggests to me putting the word “treasures” in boldface for emphasis. Montana is known as The Treasure State. This is also a good side nod itself to the act of hiding the treasure.

        “Riches” are often understood as gold and/or silver. Montana’s state motto is “Oro y Plata” — literally “Gold and Silver”.

        Whoever finds the treasure will be taking home a bonanza in “goodies”. Montana is known as The Bonanza State in reference to its many “bonanza mines”.

        Forrest has said that his church is in the mountains and in the river bottoms. Montana is known as The Headwaters State and as The Land of the Shining Mountains.

        Forrest has said the treasure is hidden in a spot where he once wanted his bones to rest. Montana is known as The Last Best Place. With just a touch of wordplay, that could easily also be The Best Last Place.

        I’m hard pressed to think of any state nicknames for Wyoming or Colorado that fit this stanza very well (although I almost certainly don’t know them all). For New Mexico, the only link I have been able to make is “treasures new and old” possibly referring to New Mexico and “Old” Mexico, but I consider that somewhat dubious.

        I would like to think Indulgence is here in Colorado somewhere, but I am concentrating on Montana on the basis of all this.

        Of course, I could be many miles off the mark here.

        • It’s nice to see someone from Colorado do some extensive research to find the Treasure State as the state where the treasure is.

          Yes we could be many miles off the mark but the devil is in the details and we need to eliminate what or where it isn’t first.
          Colorado seems to be way out.

          You done a lot more research than me and thanks for the confirmation but I just need TTOTC and TFTW books to realize where we know it is.

          Concentrate on the Treasure State.

          • Ok Jake, Colorado has always been my pick. For one, it is not as predictable as Yellowstone. So, I will lay it out for you. At least some of my solve. BIWWWH= Fix your eyes, TIITCD=Colorado, NFBTFTW= Map!!! Those clues have always been solid with me. Maybe we can help each other ?

          • Brian, where are you looking in Colorado? I posted my Ouray solve on July 21. It’s doubtful that I will ever get a chance to go BOTG anytime in the foreseeable future so I think it would be great if someone could check the area out and report back on what they find.

            Best of luck,

            Macahol

    • Riches=water/gold, this just popped into my brain; usually when that happens it is right DKW (don’t know why) but it seems right

    • You see things I don’t Brian.
      “BIWWWH= Fix your eyes, ”

      What the heck does getting laser surgery on my eyes have to do with figuring WWWH? I know I’m nearsighted but not everyone is.

      Care to share….

      • Lol, no Jake it’s look with your eyes. Those three clues I have had for over a year now. However, I could never nail it to one particular place

        • OH!
          Fixate your eyes.
          That makes more sense.
          I am in the camp of the first clue being a physical geographical place you can see on a map and not being a process, thought, theory or what you have to do with any of your body parts.
          I do believe you can swim there but the rangers might not like it.

  61. Because it’s a treasure to him. I think up until the home of Brown is treasures old, after that it’s treasures new.

    • Are you saying the glacier is treasure to him?
      I’m having a hard time following you.
      You didn’t specify what “it’s” is.

  62. Yes Jake, I think Glacier Park is a treasure to him. I have also thought logically for years. Now I’m thinking differently.

    • OK Brian, so you think Glacier National Park is BIWWWH?
      Or just a treasure to him?

    • Thank you for sharing your WWWH.
      It’s a lot more than most will do here.
      Most are paranoid that if they give away WWWH, we will go and find the treasure and leave them out.
      Until next time….

    • Thanks Brian,
      I think it’s good for all to post their WWWH here so they can get a different POV and see and hear what Fenn said in the past about the starting area.

      We need to begin somewhere but I don’t think Fenn mentioned anything about GNP. He has mentioned Montana several times so this place is viable seeing it’s in Montana. Could be the subtle hints.

      I would not say it’s the whole park region though and if it’s there in Glacier then it would be a certain glacier and not a big region.

      Tough sell for me.
      Keep on thinking and digging as all are.

        • My WWWH is the Firehole River area, his bathing spot near Ojo Caliente. It’s obviously a very special place for Fenn seeing he wrote about it but only gives poor directions to this place.

          Fire in the hole!!!

          I’m not sure when Dal put the video on Fenn’s website or when it was actually figured out this was his bathing spot.
          https://www.oldsantafetradingco.com/blog/river-bathing-is-best

          The 5th line in the poem is BIWWWH and River Bathing is Best is the 5th chapter in TFTW.

          As I have gone alone in there
          He bathed alone in there.

          Fire away.

          • It’s logical to assume a place like this could refer to the poem’s WWWH. Only the story is not mentioned in TTOTC. For this particular place to be WWH from a story in another book or a personal blog… fenn would have had to intentionally give up an answer to a clue and even a place to find it. The one clue that fenn says we need to nail down or stay home.
            What would be the point of planning the challenge, giving away a million plus for a prize to figure the clues, spend 15 year perfecting the poem [ feeling like an architect designing/blueprinting it, and a more than two decades from first thought to finally hiding the treasure, consulting legal matters with lawyers… just to tell all… hey, here’s the first clue handed to you on a gold platter?

            Sure, why not!

          • Thank you Seeker!
            I agree. I just knew that you would say it so much better than I.

          • Seeker,
            I know this may sound silly but I truly believe that “too far to walk” is an extension of “The Thrill of The Chase” even though it’s a different book.
            This would explain the lower case letters used in the title although they are lower case in the poem.

            Fenn never said this spot is where to begin in the poem so he is not ” intentionally give up an answer to a clue and even a place to find it”. I believe it is. He’s just writing stories about his past.

            If I was to give a hint that would help with a clue in the poem, I would hint the 1st clue and maybe a few of the first clues but hardly no hints or very subtle hints for the later clues.

            We don’t know for sure this is a hint but it sure strikes me as one as in number 1, right in everyone’s face. Besides, it wouldn’t be much help if the treasure many miles away maybe 100.

          • Jared,
            Thanks for sharing.
            Make sure there have been searchers at this place and people that were oblivious to the connection in the poem.
            Remember what Fenn said about the first clue.
            No oblivious people, no searchers, no go.

          • this makes sense; much inclined to believe this…now what about hoB? It seems to me hoB is indicating NPS land, brown is a color associated with NPS maps and clothing. Also there are no legal issues with taking the chest in NPS land.

          • Jake,
            Regardless of the second book title or the map or the idea information [ like Canada poof, for the location of the chest itself ] To leave out an place, idea, hint, such as, fenn’s mountain bathing story from the first book… would be a big deal to those who started this in 2010 – 13.
            I’m not say fenn hasn’t give thoughts or suggestions for thinking. Only the part where he would give up a specific location for a clue or the chest. All other comments are suggestive in nature and/or eliminates only where the chest could be.
            And yes, by telling the story ‘later’ and it would be “the” wwh would be handing us an actual deciphered clue’s location to start at… and never known of from the first book.

            Which reminds me of a question; a number of question posted here… under a SB I think… basically asking; will his “books” help. fenn answered using only the TOTC within that answer… even when he had the opportunity to answer for both books, while the third book was only a twinkle in his. { I’ll need to fetch that Q&A again, for myself }.

            I mean, If a fourth book came out tomorrow that mentioned he called Grizzlies ‘Mr. Brown’ and it turned out the story tells of a location he considers there habitation… and it turned out that is an answer to hoB [ four books later and 8 plus years ATF ]… ? What good is the first book as reference material that will help the average reader, if none of it is in the first book?

            Don’t get me wrong… the idea is good. And fenn may have posted the story for thought provoking ideas… but to be the same spot? That’s giving away the cow with the milk. And as I said before, why would he after 20 plus year of planning and task, 8 more years [ or subtract 3 for 2013] of the challenge being attempted [close to 3 decades, in total]… just to give an answer to any clue and the location-?- especially the all sought-out important first clue or you have notta.

            That is a leap of faith even Indiana Jones wouldn’t step off of. IMO.

          • Arg

            My daughter has a large number of imaginary friends. It started as soon as she was able to tell us

            The progenitor if the menagerie is Baby Connie. Baby Connie has been with us for about 6 years.

            Ranking second is my daughter’s camel, Spurlock. Spurlock is very important because he flies along side our car, this conveying Baby Connie, BC’s sister, Corn on the Cobbie, and the whole gang, to wherever we are going.

            When we were entering Epcot Center I asked her if Baby Connie was with us. “No, Connie can be bored just as well back at the hotel.”

            Spurlock has no problem threading the needle, and nor does my daughter.

            Cheers!

          • Seeker,
            When TTOTC came out, River Bathing is Best story was on his website July 18, 2011. Wayback
            Those that read the book may have found his website and read the story and went to that place thinking it was the first clue or a clue and decided to add it to TFTW.

            I cannot disregard the book title or the map or book cause it’s like asking to throw out the most important information, the poem is in the book and the title is in the poem. How could you disregard that?
            You mizewell disregard the poem.
            Goto go for a few.

          • Would you have even thought of this place if fenn past away when he hid the chest as originally planned? Or even any time between 2010 and 1.5 years later-?- at the start up of a web page/story introduced?

            Again, the idea, hot spring to cool river creating a warm area and halt being warm farther down is a usable and possible thought.
            Fenn intros on his blog; from my memoirs, excerpt, of the TOTC. and other’s mention for other books or book from others as well…
            The bath story does not give any indication to any book…. {In part}
            “…occasionally I’d ride my bike into Yellowstone Park to a spot about twenty miles from town where a seldom-used dirt road turned right off the main drag. From there it was about a mile down that road to the Firehole River. Just before the river, there on the right, was a green geyser pool which spilled and spewed a small streamlet of boiling water that ran downhill for about fifty feet and into the cold river. My secret bathing spot –”

            That is very specific and hardly subtle, using the term “My secret [bathing] spot”

            You said; ‘the poem is in the book and the title is in the poem. How could you disregard that?’ {the tftw book} which came out in 2013.
            I never said disregard the book… I’m saying the “spot” -if factual as the poem’s WWH- is giving us an answer directly to a clue… no deciphering, not thinking…etc. and again, I have to wonder why after a time span from 1988 to as early as mid 2011, fenn would just hand us the clue he tells all of the “need to nail down” or don’t go searching?

            Or why he omitted the story from the “resource book” we are told to use. Or even when directly asked about the “books” helpfulness, he answers with only the TOTC, and not the tftw?

            It’s not the idea… it the idea of ‘that’ spot, i’m pondering as; the one and only spot, for the correct location to the poem’s clue reference for wwh.
            And I dare say… that is probably one of the most searched areas of all the areas in any of the four states, yet, still notta.

            It’s a hard row to hoe… fenn just giving us a deciphered clue… after the minimum of one and a half years after the fact… on a web page, and 3 years later in another book, but never mentioned in the “resource book” with the challenge presented to anyone who bought that book. Especially when he had over 20 years to think about just that.

            So here’s the question… where in the book the Thrill OF The Chase, is there a subtle hint to the river bathing story, idea/theory, for WWH as a clue that would give credence to the spot or deciphering? That would be my first concern, before thinking, yep fenn handed us a million plus by giving us an answer to the first clue…ATF.

          • Seeker: “where in the book the Thrill OF The Chase, is there a subtle hint to the river bathing story”
            If you know where to look, you will find it if you have the book IMO.
            I don’t want to give the cow away just some milk.

            Moby
            (43:50) “There are no clues in this book -too far to walk- but there are hints” “Get the thrill of the chase & read it & read the poem over & over & over again. Then read the book again slowly looking at every little abstract thing that might catch up in your brain. Might be a hint to help you with the clues.”

            He says “there are no clues in this book” – but the poem is in this book so why did he contradict himself?
            Going back to my comments to you a few times is that he does contradict himself.

            “Might be a hint to help you with the clues.”
            Might be….

            LOL,
            The idea is good and is logical as some of you said and I will never change my WWWH and will eat my hat if that area is not the first clue in the poem.
            Chomp away baby…

            Just remember the treasure chest needs to be found and Forrest has to confirm the clues publicly with the finder before my hats demise.

    • Brian –

      If you don’t see the white lines on the map, a 79 year old man didn’t walk there with a 20 pound backpack twice in an afternoon.

      That’s my opinion.

      Also, I think I have emailed F each time I have found Rainbow in MT and he replies with something like, could be if it’s in the Rocky Mountains. I take that sort of like, yeah good luck with that Einstein.

      Lugnutz

      • Thought this is a wwwh discussion. Rainbow, mirror, pipit, owl…all lakes that water halts when warm.IMO. Not where he took chest. That would be tftw….down canyon east…then vere left (draw in golf) Big F on mountain by Meyers creek camp. Oh look, road looks like a hat by cabin. My opinion he parked at trailhead (motorcycle trail not human). Yes it fits all nine clues in my mind. All my opinion just sharing. How many stamps are inside cover of ttotc? 7.. one I’d card = 71. Turn Google maps and it looks like a 71 where the F is. Take pic inside cover of ft Clark…go to crossing of the runway get coords…use with 45 puts ya in below F. All my opinions. Oh yeah don’t forget the horse shoes around the F.

  63. Only two hundred years ago the west was all wilderness and indigenous Indian tribes.

    Then in 1862 Abraham Lincoln signed into law the Homestead Act, the Pacific Railway Act, the Department of Agriculture Act, and the Morrill Act.

    Within two years, Yankee Jim, Joe Brown, and many others moved into Paradise Valley and President Lincoln created the Territory of Montana, whose southern border passes through the Gardner River exactly where the Boiling River meets it.

    There is where our adventure begins– 1864 at the border of the new territory called Montana, I think.

      • I’m not Dal. I’m sure Dal knows all that stuff already, but I think he has his own other ideas about where is wwwh.

        • Muset, Is that you in the pic? lol, I imagined a slightly older, um, mature fella with less hair and a stash…
          If I’m not mistaken, this is the area J. Meek was separated form his group and on the run from a tribe chasing him. A lot of the poem can be seen in the names of the places throughout the area… and might be what is meant by “riches” as knowledge of, new and old. A kinda idea of what was to what is now… as you said; ‘Only two hundred years ago the west was all wilderness and indigenous Indian tribes.’

          I have ponder why fenn would have “high regards” for his location… I just have hard time with place’s names and/or the involvement of US history. I mean, most if not all the names of people or places have hard connection to US history. We the people hardly know of this history, in general. I would wonder if Little Indy would, or better, someone 1000 years or 5-10,000 years down the road would have this information to work with.

          I like the location, I’m not digging the names, idea and only a short time of history. I mean, can you tell me what the now USA was like or even find maps of the RM’s relating to much, before, lets say 1492?

          I’m just curious if you have given the “down the road” thinking, fenn mentioned, consideration to future generation, line of thinking.. [ at one time saying, 100, 1000, even 10,000 years down the road ] and IF so, how did you come to this idea… with that thought in mind. LOL trust me I have been trying to find an angle around that comment, but for the life of me, it keeps yelling [ to me ] don’t use names. But that’s just me.

          • Seeker,

            Yes, that’s me. You have to remember that photo was taken back in 1887. But it’s true that I still look the same.

            Those places were only just beginning to get names back in 1864 and a lot of them have already changed. The cadastre was in its infancy, but the homestead where Joe Brown lived can still be accurately identified.

            My general solve moves forward in time as well as space beginning around 1864 until the time when Forrest was a kid in the general area. The only maps that matter are those ones in that range of dates.

            You can get them all at this awesome USGS site:

            http://historicalmaps.arcgis.com/usgs/

          • That’s been an interesting area for years, Muset (and that’s also a fascinating section of the USGS site).

            My difficulty with proposals up there has always been geographical. In order to get to the Mammoth Hot Springs/Boiling River stretch of the Gardner River, one of the main routes (I-90 to 89 to Gardiner) would take you by most of the clues you’re then going to turn around and follow back down the Yellowstone after arrival at WWWH.

            Of course, this is without knowing where-and-how Paradise Valley and the WY/MT border actually fit into *your* map. Another hinge point would be how much of the clue-route from WWWH you allow to be followed “in your mind” (including “on a map” *or* “in-or-through time”) as opposed to Boots-and/or-Wheels “on the ground.”

            Jake

          • Jake,

            It doesn’t matter how anybody arrives to the first clue, I’m pretty sure. Your concern is outside the scope of the poem.

            Boots on the ground are a must, in my general solve. I’ve been fifteen times, always moving forward, although a few times taking a wrong turn.

            I don’t have a confident ending yet.

          • I don’t have a confident ending yet either although many have throughout the years.

            It matters if searchers go to the begin spot and then go through all the clues to find the treasure. He never said you wouldn’t stumble upon where warm waters halt.

            Boots on the ground are required to finish the deal and up grade our general solves to the ultimate level.

            Just to stay on track, what may be your WWWH and I think Seekers was the Continental Divide at some point but I would love to hear everyone’s WWWH.

  64. Jake is really on to something, why doesn’t anyone seem to acknowledge this? Y’all can’t see the forest for the trees (Pun intended). Just because he does write about it in one of his books, that does not rule Ojo Caliente out. Y’all act like there is some rule that says it can’t be from the book, well as far as I can tell there are no rules and Fenn is having a good old time leading us all on goose chases (myself included) which ain’t a bad thing. I had one of the best times ever in my life floundering around in a bunch of caves in Sinks canyon.

  65. Thanks Panny,
    I am not the first to suggest WWWH is his bathing spot but I have not dug deep enough on the blogs to confirm.

    I do appreciate your thoughts on the matter and do think that if your going to look for clues in the books they must be places where he really enjoyed.

    I’m not keying in on typo’s, names, drawings, theories, stamps, other books mentioned like Catcher… or anything that leads you to the big carrot. Forrest said the hints are in the text and we need to marry the clues to places on a map.
    PLACES!!!
    That’s where and what the clues and hints are -PLACES
    Yes there are directions as well but they all are places whether from one to the next to get to the next clue to the final clue, the blaze.

    Take a good look at these guys experiences where they have been to many places in the Rockies searching for Fenn’s treasure and I find it very comforting they have gone to many places over a week, so why couldn’t folks like this, be at or figured WWWH and went by the other 7 clues and the treasure in different span.

    http://coronadoschildren.tumblr.com/
    Take a good look at all 27 pages of these rednecks from Texas as a great example searchers being at many places throughout there trip on different days.

    I have posted this link before with no one replying about them at all.
    It proves that some could be at the BIWWWH and go past all the other clues including the chest being many miles apart on different days or trips.

    Fenn never said they figured WWWH and went past the chest on the same day or trip for that matter.

    Those that think the clues are within 5-10-20 miles or so could be mistaken.
    Look at the big picture.

    • “No, fresh eyes and new thinking might provoke a winning idea. I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a *place* on a map. It seems like the longer one thinks about the search the more they complicate the problem.f”

        • Jake

          F did not say to simplify. He said something like here’s a clue.

          And then

          “Try to simplify if you can”

        • Jake: I’m just curious what makes you an authority here. I think I have read someplace in your own words that everyone here on HoD are kindergarten. But yet you just keep advising and advising? Where did you get your degree of such wealth of knowledge?

          Seeker seems to be in the same rubber boat.

          What makes both of you so much smarter than anyone else who is in this chase. I don’t see either of you with the chest?

          Curious
          ERamos

          • No comment Ernie.
            Our rubber boats go in different directions as many here.

            Where does your rubber boat take you?

          • Ernie, this blog is for people to express their ideas so others can think about. What’s your problem with that? I for one like to hear what others are thinking.

          • I’m not complaining I’m just asking. Nothing wrong with asking. I enjoy the blog as much as anyone. But it just seems some more than others have such a sense of knowledge and opinions are strong. Nothing wrong asking. I am sorry if I offenended anyone. Jake your thoughts are good thoughts.

          • Ernie –

            Bro! Don’t back down from Jake, he’s crazy, right?

            Forrest said the treasure isn’t under water and then Jake came on the board and told everyone how it’s underwater.

            Your opinion is as welcome as Jake’s is. If you don’t like something I write, you have the right to speak up.

            Jake has been searchig the same waterfall since 1984.

            IMO
            Lugnutz

  66. hey all- I haven’t posted in so long- life.

    i, as always, am wondering a strange thing- does anyone relate to this stanza “Begin it where warm waters halt…” as 18? I will relay how to anyone who might have come to this conclusion… thanks, best to all, leigh. xo.

    • well- here is just another way to do things “precisely”

      Begin it where…. “where it”= whereit
      take “it” in the…. = whereithe
      put “in” below the… (below, by definition, also means after…) =whereithein= where eight hein=18

      • Sorry Leigh,

        There are no “numbers” involved here… purely my personal opinion.

        Good Luck on your methods…

        –Fennatical

  67. You guys know what? We should all just meet up sometime on a camping trip and just let it all out. If you found the treasure would you sell the contents? I sure would not. So what does it matter? If there were six or seven of us truly sitting around a fire coming together, we could have a good time and figure it out. I fore one don’t care if I have to split the treasure. How about you?

    • Brian;

      Don’t know how long you have been on the Chase, but every year there is a gathering of Searchers – Called FENNboree. LOTS of people gather and exchange what they are willing to exchange – so far, no treasure. Good luck with your idea – JDA

    • Brian ~’I fore one don’t care if I have to split the treasure. How about you?’

      I’m not splitting my wife’s treasure with anyone… I’ve been married to long to kNOw better… I think I even saw it on my honeydew list;
      Mow lawn
      Clean shed
      Trim hedges
      Find fenn’s treasure so she can go shopping
      Give the dogs a bath

  68. Even if one has figured out wwwh and told everyone else, it more than likely be dismissed because everyone has a different idea of wwwh. Even if someone solved all of the clues, without the treasure it would be immediately be dismissed, when the searcher may have been within a short few inches among the wood. It also it could be dismissed because F’s special place is not what they envisioned it to be.

    The main thing that I am pointing out is, other searchers aren’t taking the time to see if there is something that is viable or truth in another persons solve. I think that people will pick it apart right at the start because its not there solve, and when the tc is found most would cry fowl just because. Its just human nature to reject something they don’t agree with.

    Just Say’n the way I see things.

    • “other searchers aren’t taking the time to see if there is something that is viable or truth in another persons solve” after 6 years, my friend, i concur.

    • I agree that most people are difficult to move off of their solves and that many searchers way over complicate it.

    • I don’t worry about trying to move people off their solves. I will offer information if it doesn’t unduly reveal my own active solves, but I don’t worry about who listens and who doesn’t. That’s on them. Besides, if they insist on going on what I deem is a “wild goose Chase”, that leaves more time and elbow room for me on my trail. And if they are right and I am wrong, well … good for them. Well done.

      I gladly consider ideas put forth by others, but I research the ideas myself before either keeping or discarding the idea. If I pass up some good information that way, I have nobody to blame but myself.

      One man’s “perfect fit” is another man’s “complete waste of time”, but we will never really know who is right until somebody finds and claims the TC and either announces the fact, or reveals it to Forrest.

      I have no doubt that Forrest would announce if he became aware that the TC had been found, even if he promised not to reveal who found it.

    • CharlieM,

      It’s really not about picking apart a solve, at least for me. [although I do like to dissect a theory] This is a blog available for folks all over the world to type out thoughts and ideas… but some get frustrated, put-off, defensive, etc. when another/others points out discrepancies.
      As time goes on many get to know others [ for lack of a better term ] personalities… and it’s normal for a little headbutting or heated debate. This may seem to others as dismissing an other’s thought, being argumentative, or just down right rude.
      But yes, I agree that as time goes on, folks get into a single thought of a personal solve and only argue that personal solves point, and seem to not except any other thoughts or ideas. But this is a blog for chatting, not an place to find answers. I think some have simply forgot… this is just a place for BSing about a mutual interest. [ and helpful because Dal has kept records of comments, Q&A’s, media, interviews all in one place and a place to BS about it all ].
      So, for example only, above Jake F. slightly misquoted a Q&A and in addition emphasized a word from that comment [wrong].
      LOL I know Jake will not agree to my idea of “clues to A PLACE on A Map” as a smaller / single area… his thoughts are more inline with ‘places’ for each clue… My point is, It’s not always about the one’s ‘idea’ as when folks ‘get into’ a discussion of who’s right or wrong on an idea… many times it’s simply a point of view that can be misleading to comments fenn stated, when the comment is misquoted. { we each [all searcher] still have our own opinions on how we see thing, and that’s great. { lol even when their wrong and i’m right }

      The comments [postings] added to your post seem to imply… one searcher attempting to change another searchers mind, ideas, thoughts simply by disagreeing or pointing out slight mistakes etc. and simply dismissing the idea of any searcher who has something different than what they think is correct in there solve [ ok grant ya, there are some knowitall who know they have this in the bag ]
      But for the most part.. I think folks are only seeing what they think is rudeness, fighting, bad attitudes, ‘picking apart’ line of thinking… just because folks who have been BSing for a long time with each other, don’t always fluffinutter their comments.
      This, and other blogs, have become a type of community, neighborhood, with long time residence. Sometimes, someone will tell another to shut their dog’s yapping… only to later, invite them over for a BBQ. But, unfortunately, there is always the type of guy who yells at the kiddies to stay of his lawn.

      Ray Henry stated; ~ I don’t worry about who listens and who doesn’t. That’s on them… One man’s “perfect fit” is another man’s “complete waste of time” ~
      A great way to think… only we really need to attempt to keep information that flows around the blogs as accurate as when we receive them from fenn, and not so much, an other’s thought of what fenn stated as fact. Or eventually, all we have is misquotes that can mislead.

      End of commentary.

      • Yes POV.
        Sometimes I’m too lazy to look up the actual quotes.
        I think most here are guilty of that.
        So when you having that BBQ?

        • Jake…Seeker left his cyber ribs on my lawn last time he came by…I threw my corn back over the fence. Later we had a good chat. It’s all good man ! Chase on….and I think it still all boils down to having that wwwh nailed down.

          • Yea ken, it’s all good until I bring my hat to Seekers BBQ and over cooks it as he does with the poem.
            I’m only going to eat it al dente.

            I would invite all you guys and gals to my cookout.
            I think it would be far more better social atmosphere than typing to each other. I would go to anyone’s cookout here if I was invited and I could get time off work.

            Bon Appétit!

          • Cooked?
            LOL, I’m not gonna treat you to a ‘cooked’ hat… ya get that puppy raw and over seasoned.
            Which reminds me about the water thing… what was it again??…

          • Oh yes I for one think seeker has no zero clue where to begin and I will over cook the ribs and bring in a second set of ribs free on my house. Jeeeeeeezus seeker get botg and see what it tastes like I’ve personally done 9 trips this year and have at least three more. Your claims are no better or worse than ours/!\

          • We’re having a good ole NE clam bake on the coast tonight…plenty o’ lobstah and such. Tomorrow is parasailing on the ocean with all the kids…and maybe we’ll find where warm waters halt while we’re at it!

          • You’re killin’ me, ken. I haven’t had a lobster this century.

            When we went back to Cape Cod for my dad’s funeral 12 years ago, we gorged on clams, scallops, and crabcakes.

            Aside from occasional fish’n’chips and Xmas crab legs, I don’t eat seafood here in Colorado – it’s just not the same without salt sea air and sand in your shoes.

            Jake

          • Warm waters halt in my mouth when eating New England seafood, I cut my teeth there and my scalp for 45 years.
            Or is that scallop.

      • CharlieM

        And Seeker’s comments are so wordy an nonsensical that noone actually reads them anyway.

          • Seeker,

            Yep, a little wordy, but the idea is not to change another’s mind to move them away from their solve. I think maybe if another searcher might see something that was missed.

            Yes here on HOD is a blog. I do think most here are straight forward and not BSing and more interested in something that might help in their solution.

            I guess that I should always take your comments as BS. Mine are straight forward without BS that might help another.

          • LOL Charlie, BSing is nothing more than chatting about anything we don’t actually “know”. The coffee shops of the world are full of BSers that can fix all the worlds problems before they hits bottom of the cup… then they just start on a new problem to solve… with the second cup of joe…

          • Seeker,
            You are one of just a few I actually read on here. IMO You are one to watch, I don’t agree with everything but believe you’re closer than you know you are. Thank you for your opinion, it’s nice reading sold logical thinkin. I also believe Lugs is quite intelligent with his reasoning, normally. So, that tells you how messed up my solve is if I like both your ideas.
            Best of luck!
            -B

    • So true Charlie! If someone’s solve isn’t in my state or even anywhere remotely close my solve area I hardly read it. I tend to skim over it. How sad!

  69. The thing that worries me about Madison Junction, is the fact that people have gone “right past the other 7” clues, not knowing they had been so close. So first, what are the first TWO clues?

    – Is it WWWH and Canyon down? OR…
    – WWWH and HOB?

    I thought maybe HOB was Hebgen lake, because there is LITERALLY a put in below it. But, if the first two clues are WWWH and Canyon down, then it seems unlikely that HOB could be Hebgen lake because that’s like 25 miles away and how could people go “right past” something so far away? Seems unlikely, but not impossible.

    But, if HOB is clue #2, then I could see someone going right past clues 3-9.

    I had an “a-ha” moment recently. Forrest said: “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia.f”

    Notice he said MOST, not ALL of the places existed. This is key IMO. Go back to the clues and cross off the ones that most likely existed. There are very few that may not have existed, and for one popular solve…there is something that obviously did not exist.

    • corepuncher, which one (or two) of the places the clues refer too “did not exist when” ff was a kid in your opinion? Which one one or s might disappear or change to become unrecognizable? Why?

      IMO the first clue did not exist, WWWH, but all the others did.

      What do you think?

      TT

      • I know the question wasn’t directed to me, but here is my two cents anyway.

        In my current solve, WWWH already existed before Forrest was even born, but “the end is ever drawing nigh” did not exist until about the 1980s. So, well after Forrest was a kid, but before he hid Indulgence.

        But, to be fair, my confidence in that clue location is not as high as I would like because it could potentially be gone again any time in the next 100 to 1000 years. Hard to say. It fits my solve pretty well, though, and is even supported by a couple hints I think I found in TToTC.

      • I would say, no place for the meek is my place that wasn’t there when he was a kid.

    • I thought he said that most of the CLUES did not exist when I was a kid, but the places they refer to did

      • Brian – a small bit of research would have given you the quote:

        Question posted 6/25/2014:
        Hi,
        Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years?
        Thanks ~Ron
        Thanks Ron, thoughtful questions
        The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f

        Hope this helps – JDA

    • Yes..yes… YES!!
      I get so excited when someone else’s thinking runs parallel with mine.

  70. Hi Tom –

    May I say that I do not know what you are getting at, but I want to answer just the same.

    ANY WWWH that involves water will change.

  71. I’m so tempted to literally lay out my entire solve. What a fine line we walk sometimes lol.
    But back to WWWH. Mental barfing follows:

    The ones I was inspecting were:

    1- Madison Junction
    2- Mammoth
    3 – Continental divide

    Forrest said “there are many places where warm waters halt…”.

    That said, lets test.
    Madison Junction = the confluence of a couple other rivers. Are there many of these? I’d say yes. Small issue I have is that Gibbon and Firehole simply come together to form the Madison, so really the waters just keep on going, no halting and there isn’t even a temperature difference between them. But maybe if you look at the Firehole as a “water”, and the Gibbon as a “water”, fed by geysers, it can work. Beyond Madison Junction, there is no longer boiling water feeding into it, so in that way, warm waters do halt. BUT, if warm waters are hot spring fed rivers, maybe not so many north of santa fe? How many geyers/spring basins are there aside from yellowstone area? Finally, if you begin it WWWH and immediately take it in the canyon down, I suppose it would follow that water WOULD continue flowing, after all, there’s a canyon so it has to! So I am not necessarily stuck on water actually halting. Madison Junction spins my fricken head.

    Mammoth = I liked this because warm waters literally halted there because it’s dormant. Then couple that with all the Joe Brown, no place for the meek stuff, it seems intriguing. However, are there “many” places like Mammoth? Hmmm, I’d say no. A few chalk cliffs or whatever.

    Continental Divide = Definitely a yes, many places long it where waters have their inception. But, is the beginning of waters also a place where they halt? What are “waters”, the body as a whole? Halt to me implies that the waters are flowing, and stop abruptly. But then again, all waters have a specific beginning, but, all ultimately have the same end, the ocean! Eh, not too big on this one currently.

    Any hot spring = If the waters are those flowing underground, I suppose a hot spring could be where it ends or halts. But even so, the water keeps flowing out of the ground so I don’t think that’s it.

    Overall my #1 WWWH is Madison Junction.

    • ** ** corepuncher pondered “How many geyers/spring basins are there aside from yellowstone area?” ** **

      There are hot springs all over the place; geysers are not too commonplace.

      Just a quick jumpstart, in Colorado alone – Steamboat, Glenwood Springs, Pagosa Springs, et multi cetera . . .

      Jake

      • Tighter: ENOUGH with the stupid looking up “halt” in the dictionary! Posting the same message 50 times to Dal’s only undercuts your message. You might as well post “kettle corn”.

        • (This may shock you, but) I agree that I’ve given it more than a reasonable amount of effort. The world won’t stop turning simply due to the TC remaining hidden for a while. May you live in health
          and happiness, long enough to celebrate many upcoming anniversaries of your birth day. As always, IMO.

          • Tight –

            Publicate or not, can you just say what you think Halt means and why you have asked everyone multiple times about the definition?

        • Thanks Zap! I am with you!

          @Tighterfocus: if I remember correctly, the last non-repetetive post from your side said something like (paraphrasing): “I am going to be the one who finds it… wait for Agust to come! If not, I will publicate my solve!”

          I am marking your words… I think if you wrote down your solve it could be more interesting and less annoying… 😉 IMO as always, right?

  72. Hey folks. I won’t say I am brand new to the search, but I am just now looking at other peoples theories. I read where FF said that any common man could find the treasure with just the poem and a map. My thought was to try by myself, without other idea’s and theories clouding my mind. I find myself running out if idea’s now of WWWH now.
    I look forward to catching up on posts to check theories of others, to see if I can tie in my own idea’s to find the loot!

    • You probably should be careful with implications, in order to keep from pushing buttons. Just my opinion.

    • Considering the ideas of others is a great way to expand your thinking on the subject. Just don’t lose your own voice in the the solves of others. As far as anyone knows, the chest is still out there, which means that every solve so far is either unproven or flawed in some way. But some solves could be more right than wrong. If somebody had a *perfect* solve, the Chase would already be over. Who knows, maybe your unique perspective will be what it takes to unlock the poem and reveal Indulgence.

      Unless I find it first. 😉

      Good luck!

  73. I’m going to start with the obvious, Forrest Fenn is an avid trout fisherman that lives in Santa Fe. Thanks a million you say but there’s a little bit more.

    The state of New Mexico classifies its water bodies as either warm waters or trout waters, these classifications are used to monitor and maintain the temperamental trout populations and the cooler water rivers, creeks and streams that they occupy.

    From the very beginning I believe that most every single one of us is to A, trying to identify warm waters and B, we see a huge connection between Forrest and trout fishing and therefore we try to base at least part of our solve around that very activity. I’ll take the following quote to further my perspective…..

    “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts”

    When I see this quote, I immediately look for seriou forrest and Forrest the trickster. All of our search area is north of Santa Fe and most of our area to search the Rockies is part of the 3 states other than New Mexico.

    why I like this path is because, you need to know a couple things about Forrest,where he’s from and what he likes to do. Beyond that information, you need to do general research into New Mexico and its heavily documented fishing laws, which the phrase warm waters is very common terminology when talking New Mexico fishing.

    And what I hear in the quotas, an ellusion to the vast majority of our possible locations in the Rockies as north of the New Mexico border, where an abundance of warm waters exist but also the terminology warm waters, halt as far as their local state vocabulary.

    “The most common mistake that I see searchers make is that they underestimate the importance of the first clue. If you don’t have that one nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta.”

    Another huge trout fishing connection in this quote about where to begin, or as Forrest has confirmed, WWWH. Forrest isn’t just a fisherman he is an angeler or fly fisherman. In every fly fishing setup your are in need of using what is called a leader, the way to secure a leader is with a nail knot, or nailed down as Forrest just said.

    I believe that if your specific WWWH, doesn’t at least in part satisfy the trout fishing connection, the rest of your solve will disappoint.

    • Double A: while many New Mexico searchers likely favor your view that the New Mexico warm waters fishing definition is relevant to the Chase, I think WWWH, home of Brown and the blaze will have nothing to do with fishing — trout or otherwise. In fact, I don’t think any part of the winning solution will depend on fishing information.

      • Correction, it’s not relevant to your theory. To be clear I’m searching in a different state using terminology from forests state.

        • I do agree with you zaph. that home of brown, while supporting the trout premise, is not a fishing spot and more likely a proper noun.

    • I see your logic and it is some pretty good reasoning. However….

      I flyfish in Colorado. (Well, not for several years, because life, but used to fish every summer.) I have never fished any state *but* Colorado, yet I am well acquainted with “warm waters” vs “cold waters” in terms of fishing. You could well be on the right track, but I think that fishing term may be less of a solid pointer specifically to New Mexico than you think. Even if it isn’t used specifically in regs, I suspect flycasters in all four states will be familiar with the term, while people who don’t fish may regard it as “specialized knowledge”.

      I have what I feel is a pretty solid WWWH that relates to warm water halting/stopping, having the clue nailed down, and is confirmed by a hint I think I see in TToTC. And it has nothing to do with New Mexico, hot springs, or fly fishing. But it is in a place Forrest would likely have been familiar with growing up and there is (from what I gather) some pretty good fishing in the general area.

      Just my opinion, of course. It may not be worth its weight in warm waters.

    • I’ve never been big on this idea because laws and definitions can change. If I wanted something to last hundreds of years, I would not rely on a state regulation. I would base the clues only on things that man could not change.

      • This includes place names! I would love to ask Forrest,

        “If 500 years from now the TC has not been found, and aliens took over the Earth and changed the language such that all place names were complete gibberish, would a searcher, having only a good map and the poem, be at a disadvantage compared to someone searching today?”

        • my original post was meant to focus more on terminology than laws. the terms warm waters vs trout waters are heavily used terms all through the 4 states we search and others all across the country, its just high interesting to me that when doing very little research about fishing in his home state, you quickly discover the term warm waters and how new mexico operates. in fairness forrest isn’t aiming to amuse aliens, forrest is talking to humans. if I’m a searcher 300 years from now and i discover ferns poem while making the links to fishing terminology, i would imagine id have both more than enough means to learn about fishing in his day and the drive to do so.

          i hear what you say about the complications with some local brown being lost to history but why the capitalization? perhaps the brown in questions legacy is big enough to survive few hundred years or so like boone, finn, adams or presley.

          just my thought and attempt at thought provoking dialogue. thanks for the feedback.

    • This is the first thing I’ve seen anywhere that has me considering a possible Colorado solve. RMANWR and DMNS are technically not in the Rocky Mountains, but they are near enough to be a “jumping off” point for a solve.

      (In Colorado, the RMs and the associated Foothills generally stop at, or west of, Interstate 25. Everything east of the highway is considered the Eastern Plains, except for a few hills near Monument and again near Raton Pass.)

      And, for what it’s worth, a stretch of I-25 running through Denver used to be known as “The Valley Highway” because it runs below the average grade level of the surrounding area. Some older folks still call it that. If you leave Denver on I-25 going south, I suppose you could call that a “canyon down”.

    • Regarding Colorado, read TTOTC and see if you can find any clues that point toward Colorado. I guess there are fish in every state, otherwise, I cannot find one clue that points to Colorado, other than it’s the only state NOT mentioned at all. Forrest said in one of his bookstore signing videos that there were a couple good clues, and a couple more subtle clues in TTOTC. I take that as maybe 4 total give or take. The Browns Canyon solve was near the top of my list due to the fact that the clues seemed to fit well down the Arkansas river valley, Railroad Gulch, etc, AND, the whole Pinyon pine foible, but, I just don’t see any Colorado relate clues in TTOTC. Anyone else?

      • corepuncher,

        I would think F would be more prone to hide the treasure in a place that could be out of character. If I were to take my life and hide a treasure I would be in a non conspicuous and out of character place such as Colorado. I think NM, WY & MT would be too easy of a place to hide the treasure, just because those are popular with folks because F mentions them as places he likes that he has close ties to and the fact those 3 states are the most searched.

        There are plenty of places in CO to hide the treasure and plenty of places where warm waters halt. The words are to me is inconspicuous and unassuming is where I would hide, and not popular with my life.

        Just Say’n

        • Remember, the place that the treasure resides is his special place and PREEXISTS the whole treasure idea, if I am not mistaken.

          “The spot where I hid the treasure was in my mind from the time I first started thinking about the chase. It is special to me and there was never another consideration. I was going to make it work no matter what. In my reverie, I often find myself stealing away to that place and I will always consider it to be mine alone.”

          • Agreed. I forget at the moment where I read it, but I had the impression the hiding spot was a place Forrest discovered when he was still young. It is certainly *possible* he could have found his special spot in New Mexico or Colorado during a rest stop on the family’s trips to and from West Yellowstone, it seems more likely to me that it would be a place somewhere in or around YNP. He would have had a lot more time to explore there as a kid.

            To me, the lack of any mention of Colorado in TToTC just suggests he didn’t spend time there when younger and he doesn’t live there now, so he had nothing much to say about it.

            Plus, I have a long list of things relating to stanza 1 of the poem that (to me) all hint at a southwest Montana starting point, possibly ending in either Montana or Wyoming.

            Colorado would be ever so much more convenient for me, but a preponderance of evidence points me further north. The Museum and Wildlife Refuge in Denver are interesting ideas, but I’m inclined to stick with my Montana approach.

      • Personally, I believe it is in NM but have become interested in Colorado for other reasons. One possible clue would be the home of Molly Brown. The other clue would be in regards to him parking his car at the Denver Museum of Nature & Science that is mentioned in the forward of Once Upon a While written by Douglas Preston.

        The place where FF hid the TC is very personal to the Major so the one piece of information that I am looking for is what Military Entrance Processing Station (MEPS) he enlisted from. Have a gut feeling that it might have been Denver, which would put an entire different spin on the search.

        • David…Why wouldn’t Forrest have officially enlisted at a more convenient MEPS…like maybe San Antonio?

          • I had heard that in September of 1950, he was actually somewhere in Idaho and Denver might have been more convenient for him at the time. Don’t know how true that is. I know that his home of record was Waco, TX but they didn’t have an AFEES induction center there.

    • Seeker…Forrest has said that there are many places where warm waters halt.
      I’m sure you are aware of that…so you must mean specifically in the poem?

      • The second thought, ken, more or less… it’s an open ended question, requiring both the poem and ATF.

        • Well…given that we all know that there are many, there must be a *way* to narrow it down/discover/learn/figure which is the correct *one*. I say *one* because that *one* has been described by Fenn as *the* starting point/*first* clue. I would guess that is true unless a searcher is following a circuitous path or traveling through the clues more than one time….nah, I believe the poem focuses on just one.

          • Forget circuitous path … that is a method of following a physical path.

            I am talking about descriptions…[poem]
            As you pointed out fenn stated we have to ‘learn’. So, don’t think of the ‘one’ as to, the ‘only’ …but more to the fact being the ‘correct one’ ~ the staring point of the clues

            So I’ll toss this out; Is WWWH in the second stanza the same ‘type of reference’ as [lets say HLnWH]?… could hoB be of the same ‘type of’ reference that both WWWH and HLnWH might be?

            “Certainty of the location beforehand..” might indicate the idea of two or three ‘same types’ of WWWsH are there. We need to learn which is right/correct to start from, and which are other clues [ for order purpose ] to be followed correctly.
            I’ll even throw in the idea, NPFTM might the canyon down itself. “From there “its”… to be the same as “Begin “it” where…” “It” may refer to NPFTM [the canyon down] And in the Q&A [ I’m sure you’re aware of ] “… not going down and up and down again…” “It’s” “too far to walk”

            We [in this idea] start at “it” at the canyon; where warm “waters” are… “Just” H-Loads n Water-H. [more than one]
            So now, NPUYC might be saying; don’t go to the creek, IT’s too difficult and not needed, yet IT is not far form those “waters” ~ IT is below only.

          • No Seeker…I get it…I’m just not a great faker. While I do think that one clue lends to another, and perhaps relies on the previous, I tend to think the poem is designed in a more *linear* fashion…one foot in front of the other, in order, contiguous, follow them in order, solve them consecutively…while thinking and planning and observing the big picture. I don’t think there is a substitute that seems more logical. I think WWWH is a specific *place* that stands alone within the confines of the poem. Even taking this out of context…it still makes more sense to me that IF there is any help/hint/nudge further along in the poem learning that place…it would still have to satisfy ALL the ATF. I think that scenario would immediately step on/over the *reverse engineering* concept. And why would you need to do that?

          • The reverse engineering Q&A said why would you be concerned with WWWsH… well, would you? if you knew that there might be more than one “waters” and you made it to hoB by knowing that? {in theory, you would have to know}
            The main idea of this would help in locating the “location” of the direct path… the clues would still need to be worked out in the correct order… regardless of viewing or stomping or any other method a reader can device.

            If you knew what hoB is, you’d go right to the chest, idea, that you would have figured out by then how to read, see, do the poem [ again in theory ].
            So don’t think about my idea of observation or another’s idea of linear movement, or walking in circle. ~ Just ‘look at the big picture’… the location… to do whatever you might think the poem tells you to do.

            I mean, folks have found the location, only it seems the didn’t know what to do, right?
            Maybe they just didn’t understand what it was they were looking at… not clue one, for the most part… but all the clues being the big picture… the many “Waters” ~ at the location.

            There’s a reason fenn told of waters and water, used a creek idea, mentioned H-Loads[s] vs. Water -H. It might be that he was hinting to different ‘water’ that are the same ‘water[s]’ being the same type. {example; three merging rivers kinda works.} But are they only used for the starting point, or do they become the other clues as well? A description in the poem that tells of each one-?- but they are not ‘just’ a later clues. They are the big picture of the poem.
            Other idea can work well.. lakes, waterfalls etc. All connected as different clues, but all the same. The question is why?

            You and most are only using clues as completely different from one another, as a type of way point. Find one move to another, idea, in a linear version. I’m only thinking they might be all the same type of reference.

            *If all you have are the clues WWWH and in the Mountains N. of SF. will someone be able to meet you at the first clue?*
            Nope. You need the other clues [ same type of reference ] to find the “location”… The first clue will need nailing down at this point. LOL again in theory.

          • I believe you need to go through parts of the poem more than once. Some things always are the same (WWWH) and some are changed(Waters-H). These modifications( the second time around) are due to what was found with the discovery of “first” blaze seen on GE.

          • Seeker said…So I’ll toss this out; Is WWWH in the second stanza the same ‘type of reference’ as [lets say HLnWH]?… could hoB be of the same ‘type of’ reference that both WWWH and HLnWH might be?

            -I believe you’re on the right track with this line of thinking.

            I blew out a shoe figuring out what else you said.

          • I’m still basing my understanding/learning/figuring on ALL info that has been afforded searchers…and I did say **more linear** which is less exclusive than a *lock step* march from one *separate* clue to the next. I believe there is a difference depending on what the individual searcher *learns* along the way. My approach relies on a *hard answer* derived from the entire poem, that is the *map*, that needs to be followed precisely. That’s my current ^theory^ and for now I’m running with it. My area has many ww Seeker, which fits my general solve and possibly represents one of the obstacles where previous searchers stumbled. Poetry provides the one permissible way of saying one thing and meaning another. And, Poetry is doing nothing but using losing refusing and pleasing and betraying and caressing nouns.

          • Fun ~’I blew out a shoe figuring out what else you said.’

            That was just me using ATF’s to provide thought to the theory as a plausible idea… most if not all the ATF’s are shorten for space… lol I’d hope by now, almost all would know them just by some of the words from them. It’s the check and balancing act.

            If I said’ Wordmsith or Mdavis or becky’s Q&A’s or the “she” Q&A… you would know what I was referring to, right? So if that is what you’re talking about, sorry. But if there is another reason I lost ya, Point it [them] out, and I will try to explain better.

            ___________________________

            Ken, you talked about the ridle in the poem as the whole poem’s solve idea, right?
            Does this theory produce a riddle idea that the clues [some], are of the same type of reference just told differently… that important possibility, idea-?- use of imagination-?- The need to nail down the ‘correct WW’sH-?- even the idea of fenn indirectly hinting that many WWsH are actually involved and not just a single one? etc.
            ~ * There are many warm water halt in the RM’s… you oversimplify the clues.
            Is it one clue we oversimplify or all of them?

      • Brain,
        Jump in and chat… even if you don’t think its plausible now… toss out your thoughts.

        I have always thought, we’re not reading this poem correctly, or as fenn intended. While that is only my thoughts… it could be the reason no one seems to make a connection to any other clues… while the pass by the remaining clues, and have solved the first two.

  74. In my opinion WWWH and WH are referring to the same thing. Did you ever think that Forrest’s ToTC began with an arrowhead?? What was that arrow head was Made of might just be where we need to start our ToTC. IMO

  75. I don’t know why we are having a hard time finding the real wwwh- when the poem tells you its not far but to far to walk I would assume its from santa fe next go to home of brown from there the only part of the poem to me that is of any interest is no paddle up your creek – and that tell me not to go back east where I come from then its heavy loads and waters high – heavy loads to me means highway- so get on the highway and go north – to the north end of this body of water and that’s waters high where you will run in to the blaze the road where he parked and in the woods where you go north from there to the treasure chest – I know that some of you are going to say well you left some things out- well to me the poem doesn’t tell me what is what – I just went with what I needed to know and to me this is it jmo frank- good luck and happy hunting

    • Frank,
      You’re basically saying;
      1. Being here, it not far from SF. [ more than 8.25 N of the northern part of SF ]
      2. But don’t go too far, you need to be below the hoB.
      3. “From there” below the start and hoB is NPFTM… etc.

      How do we find the start and/or the first clue? And, why would fenn follow the clues from there, if he could simply catch up with the last clue… just by leaving his home and driving to it? Essentially taking a short cut.

      If a searcher can match clues to a map, why would they need to follow the clues-?- physically at all… be at clue one or go in a canyon, at hoB etc. all they would need to do is go to the last clue [found on a map].
      Is the only reason to follow clues, is to see the wiles of nature from a car or a map?….. where’s the thrill part?

      In the scenario above… do we need to nail down WWH or is it possible to find hoB on a map, or HLnWH seems to be a good candidate to look for. I’m not saying it’s not plausible [the scenario] I’m just trying to see where the influence of; getting out and smelling nature works into all of it.

  76. seeker I think that you have 1 and 2 right 1 is wwwh then go west to hob- what I think that is messing you up is that you pay to much attention to meek – I my self don’t think is that important to me its just meek . the start is where the chama and the rio grande meet that is wwwh – you will also pass all the clues to the chest if you want to or not – there is no way around them listen to what the poem is saying – that’s why I say that hob is west of wwwh the poem says its below hob but before hob your road going to home of brown no paddle will stop you from going farther west so there is a turn right going north or or left going south if you go if you go to wwwh and go west and turn right you will run in to all the clues I hope it helps and you under stand cause imo there no other way good luck – all this is just my opinion —frank

    • frank,
      In your solve is different to just the reading of the poem. So what you do in your solve, [ west ] to get to hoB, doesn’t really matter. My point is If another was coming from the west and knew the clue references on a map… would they need the same route you are explaining of, just go to hob or a later clue by passing any obstacles, that turns you north.

      If fenn was coming from SF… couldn’t he take a southern route to get by those possible obstacles that turned you north? When folks have miles in-between clues, I just don’t understand why the route is need, from any direction coming from any point in the USA, if we can see them on a map/GE or figure out where those later clues are at… many miles from WWWH. [if I’m not mistaken, you have over 50 miles between two clues or the first clue and later clues]

      You said; ‘…you pay to much attention to meek – I my self don’t think is that important to me its just meek.’

      While i can’t fully disagree… The poem says; No place for the meek. What does place mean to you and how do you defined meek? I don’t understand how this line is not just as important to figure out as any other.

  77. seeker there is no south to get you to the clues – from wwwh you have to turn west because the highway from santa fe going north and you pass wwwh you are already going the wrong way – you have to turn west from wwwh that puts you on the right road to all the clues and the right north- imo there is no south and no west farther then no paddle where you have to turn north ff has to come from the south to wwwh just like you and me and any body else in my opinion there is no other way seeker and as for meek for me it doesn’t mean any thing other then to rhyme with creek meek doesn’t help me get closrer to the chest so why bother its just my opinion

    • just in case I miss under stood something – from tc you have to go south turn left (east ) to wwwh then turn right (south ) to santa fe

    • frank,

      I have a hard time with your explanations of going North or West, etc… I for the life of me cannot see any compass directions or even hints of any directions in the poem.

      The “down the canyon” simply says to go down, this IMO does not mean south or what ever direction on a compass or map heading. Heck one could go in any direction. I don’t think one should worry about which way via east, west, etc… Just follow what the poem is telling you to do, to go to “places on a map”. If one finds the chest then one can say what the compass or map headings are for certain.

      Just Say’n

  78. Charlie lets see if I can help hob and wwwh they are not south or north of each other so wwwh is below hob that to me says that hob is on top (west )and below is wwwh (bottom) or east- what this tells me is if I want to go to hob I have to go west from wwwh and then north I imo I wouldn’t worry to much about canyon down – just go to no paddle turn right (north ) and you are on your way to finding the rest of the clues all this is just an opinion – no paddle is west of wwwh also hope I was able to help you

  79. Mr. Fenn said there are many places were warm waters halt. So I would think there has to be something unique about, his WWWH. The poem says to look (quickly) down. The word quickly always seemed to be out of step with the poem, and out of place in the poem. If we remove the word quickly, we have (look down), which happen to be a kind of fish that live in warm seas. There called look downs, because they have truncated heads. There eyes are set high, so they have to look down, thus the name. Kendall warm spring in Wyoming, houses a population of small look downs. It’s the only warm spring in the four state area, that has such a population, and the only warm spring, with a native fish species.

    • Been there, James, en route to the Green River Lakes (headwaters of the Green), beautiful place. Pre-chase.

      I took a closer look at the area while searching interesting Continental Divide drainage locations – very suggestive topography around there. Three Waters Peak is up there, near headwaters of the Wind (Gulf of Mexico), the Green (Gulf of California), and the Snake (Pacific). Kinky Creek Divide, too (even a little airstrip there). Olga Tea fans will find a Red, Green, and a Black with no problem.

      My main difficulty with it is that, in order to most easily get to the likely WWWH starting points, you have to first drive right by all the other likely poem/map locations you’ll be going back to once you start.

      I know that doesn’t bother everybody, but it doesn’t work for me, so I’ve left it alone.

      Jake

      • I had to go look up “look down fish” James, as I’d never heard the Kendall Dace (or any other fish) called that.

        Turns out lookdown fish are a thing. But it’s an ocean fish, saltwater, and has nothing to do with the Kendall dace.

        Unless there’s another use or meaning of “look down fish” I still haven’t uncovered?

        Jake

      • Jake,

        I’ve been researching continental divide locations as potential wwwh solves for about 3 years now. I have even incorporated them into search maps I have made using GIS. It’s interesting to hear your comments regarding this because they are similar to my own experience. Many high passes and divides in the northern Rockies fall in high altitude (> 10,000 ft) regions, and most are surrounded by roadless Wilderness areas (my maps verify this). In many (but not all) cases this creates a dilemma for Searchers looking to follow the poem clues in order. In many cases, it is impractical or impossible to start at wwwh because driving there is not possible. So to arrive at the other clues, you would have to skip visiting wwwh entirely. This troubles me also. One solution is to only consider divides or passes that are accessible by vehicle, but few if any of these have all the matches for the other clues (or at least that I have been able to find on a map so far).

        David

        • Can anyone say with certainty, that Forrest ACTUALLY TOOK the path described in the poem? Or, did he simply make the route, and drive around the edges in order to hide the treasure?? This is important to know. Anyone? Dal? I thought there was a quote somewhere or someone asked him a question regarding this issue, I’m not certain.

          • corepuncher its my opinion that there is no other way to get there only by how the poem tells you to and that goes for me you and any one else and that’s including forrest

          • Yes, I believe he has said that he followed the clues because it was the most direct route. A tarryscant search on “direct route” should turn up the exact quote. (I cannot access that site from where I am right at this moment or I’d post the exact quote.)

            Overall, my research suggests that the *only* practical route to the chest passes through all the locations indicated by the clues, so even if you happen to stumble across the chest accidentally (unlikely) you will have followed the clues without realizing you were doing so. You can’t get there from here unless you follow the poem either consciously or by dumb luck. (In my opinion.)

            Of course, you can always make any route to anywhere *longer* if you are determined to do so. 🙂

  80. Actually I found the quote where he did indeed “follow the clues” when he hid the treasure, although he wrote the poem afterwards.

    • corepuncher…that entire subject has been(follow the clues) dissected and twisted every which way you can imagine…and yet there is still no common consensus regarding what Fenn actually meant…

      • Well, we do have the word; “when” he hid the chest… seemingly implying ‘during’ the task. We also have the route was the same in and out… both, with being the most direct route.
        Dear Mr. Fenn, Once you hid the treasure, did you take the exact same route in reverse to return to your car?”
        Thank you. ~ Tyler Y.
        Yes I did Tyler, it was the most direct route. f

        We also have the comment; the clues need to be followed in order… “there’s no other way to “my” {fenn} knowledge”
        As well as ‘two trip from the car to the hide’ – ‘walking less than a few miles’ – ‘done in one afternoon.’

        LOL you’ll never get any consensus from those who want their solution [clues] miles and miles apart… it just won’t work unless fenn is; playing the 85% truth card thingy, or is being tricky or tricking us, or lies about all the hundreds of supposed hints.

        “To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f ”

        Seems to me, fenn was actually being on the up and up when he stated; “To answer some questions and **save others from being asked,**..”

        That’s about as plain English as ya can get… LOL yet here we are asking: IF he is being fully truthful? Did he follow only some clues? Did he drive clues? Did he only followed certain clues in his mind’s eye…

        I guess it’s ok… if it makes your personal solve work the way you [ the individual searchers ] want it to be.

        The more important question is: What color was the bear?

        Entertainment factor is at 99% …

        • With all the information we have, as you have stated, I can still see that it is possible for the clues to be several miles apart, while Forrest is remaining truthful. He didn’t say he followed all of the clues on the second trip. He could have driven past WWWH and other clues on his way to the parking spot. Not saying he did, but could have.

          • That’s my point Aaron…Fenn has been fairly vocal with his comments and nearly all of them can be refuted logically one way or the other. The so called *trick* is to not be biased when using them. The same comments come up time and again…along with the same arguments for or against.
            Here’s another…”When you wrote the poem did you start with the first clue or the ninth clue?”
            “I knew all along where I wanted to hide the treasure so I didn’t need a map or any information to write the poem. Everything was in my head. It took me a while to get the wording exactly how I wanted it. Counting the clues and hiding the chest came later. It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, at least in their mind.” Even with this comment folks still believe that the poem was not completely written at the time of him hiding it…perhaps because it doesn’t fit their ideas. Here’s another…”My question is…when the treasure was hidden, did you follow the clues just like they are mentioned in the poem or did you just go to where you wanted to hide it, knowing that the poem would lead someone there? Does that make sense? Tim

            “Tim, I knew from the beginning where to hide the treasure. It wasn’t until later that the clues were provided to find that spot. I don’t know…that the poem will lead someone there, as you asked, but the poem does provide everyone with that opportunity.”
            Again…everything boils down to thinking the right things and hearing what the poem is really saying…and not what we want it to say.

          • Aaron,
            At one time fenn stated; ‘…Although I am not ready to say the treasure is not in water, I certainly didn’t want moisture to enter the jar…’
            Many argued – fenn didn’t ‘say’ the chest is not in water, Right? and ignored “not ready to”
            The lack of “all” in the comment of following the clues [ that some hang their solves on ] doesn’t make the comment misleading, or to mean just some of the clues… especially when fenn started with “to answer…. and save others from being asked…” Implies full disclosure to be *all* the clues in the poem.

            But you said: ~ He didn’t say he followed all of the clues on the second trip. Does the second trip really matter? LOL even though we have the “most direct route” comment?
            Wouldn’t both trips have to be the same, going and coming from/to the hide, was ‘following’ the clues to start with?

            The only reason for chat about the second trip [ other than weight ] might be that recovery of the chest/contents needs two trips [ lol for the life of me I can’t figure out why though ]. It might be the idea of creek meaning; a narrow passage or something to do with ‘on the wood’… But by that point, do we really care about it when talking about the clues that got us there to begin with?

          • Seeker…The infamous “To answer some questions….” comment as I’m sure you know, was from Jenny’s Periodic words. These were/are random words sent in by Forrest. Whether or not they are in direct response to a particular Q or Q’s is not really very clear, so the exact intent is also not very clear. I do agree that the wording Fenn used implies that he did in fact *follow the clues in the poem* when he hid the treasure chest. I believe that is a given. There is still a lot of gray to gloss over to definitively state for a fact that he is or is not including traveling to where he parked his car as part of following the clues in the poem. Let’s not forget the last part of his Periodic Words statement as well. Folks have ranted that this part of the comment implies that the poem was not in its completed form because he had to perform some action or other in the field. While this idea makes some kind of sense…it absolutely does not jive with his comments nor Doug’s description of the sequence of events. The *two trips* fiasco is another story all on its own….

          • Seeker, we know he followed all of the clues but nothing tells us that he followed them all on foot.

          • Aaron,
            And there is one line in the poem that tells us too far to walk.
            I’m not sure why folks ignore this line in the poem and they scrutinize others for ignoring some statements he said.

            Poem trumps all.

          • I don’t think Forrest ever indicated that he parked at the first clue, only that he made two trips from his car. That means it is possible that some of the clues may be followed in a vehicle, then you park and follow the rest of the clues on foot (or by other means). Or maybe you *do* park at the first clue.

            Short of a correct solve, we don’t have enough information to know for sure where he parked in relation to the clues. We only know that he “followed the clues” when he hid the treasure, and that it was apparently “the most direct route”.

          • Jake ~’I’m not sure why folks ignore this line in the poem and they scrutinize others for ignoring some statements he said.’

            You used the word scrutinize: examine, study, persue etc. Isn’t that exactly what we’re attempting?
            You use the line in the poem as too far to walk being a physical movement / a distance, yet there is no known distance to go by. If we scrutinize the wording… ‘time’ / a period of time can be at play. Unfortunately you dismiss that because you don’t want to believe it’s plausible… whether right or wrong.

            We have the word ‘Begin it where’ and three books of memoirs [ memories of the past ] Yet, you seem to dismiss the possibility of ‘where’ in time or a time period. LOL when all three title of the books have indicators of past time and fenn himself was thinking down the road [while writing the poem and its clues] 100, 1000, even 10,000 years down the road.

            Yep… I’m scrutinizing the heck out of all this.
            This idea of KiSS as a method is not the same as “try’ and simplify the clues”
            For example, in a Q&A about; meeting at WWWH;
            “…You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f”

            Are you shortening the KiSS idea by dismissing a plausible idea that clues relate to past times-?- resulting in “Not far, but too far to walk” to be of a time period we *can not physically go back to*? I guess we would just /adjust our imagination of how it might have been o what is today and what would be far in the future.

            Naa can’t be, right? fenn meant this for us. Our generation, and wants it found soon…
            I like scrutinize better than dissect actually.

          • Seeker, “Naa can’t be, right? fenn meant this for us. Our generation, and wants it found soon…”

            I agree with the meant for our generation, but honestly, all generations to come would be more accurate. I think Forrest is still perfectly fine either way on the chest being found or not found as long as though in the chase are enriched for the journey and tempted to continue the chase even if it does someday end.

            Aaron, I have yet to follow (or have) a solve where Forrest walked from WWWH. In my mind, it isn’t because you couldn’t walk it, but because you don’t have to walk it. That is at least my take on NFBTFTW.

          • Seeker: “You use the line in the poem as too far to walk being a physical movement / a distance, yet there is no known distance to go by”

            I never bought into the idea and posted it on the internet as that line being distance so your statement is completely wrong. Not sure where you got that.

            Physical movement is necessary in getting closer to the chest. A “time” period is guessing again just like distance which I don’t see as feasible. Wrong again.

            If you can’t understand my simple words and twist them to a much more complicated scheme then I cannot read or comprehend the rest of your comment.

            LOL, Just scrutinize what you type before you Post Comment and don’t forget to read and understand other peeps comments before getting them completely wrong.

            “Not far, but too far to walk” is not a clue in my book and has nothing to do with distance or time but tells you not to walk. Simple.

        • Faulker –

          Forrest does not use that phrase to desribe a distance. Rather, he uses it to describe a sentiment.

          Paraphrasing I would like to go there (fishing hole) but today it’s too far to walk.

          Jake today it’s actually much easier to get to Bakers Hole as you can just park right there.

          The sentiment means he cannot be a carefree child again.

          Lugnutz

  81. If Forrest “followed” the clues then he did not necessarily step foot on WWWH. Forrest would not have to step on each clue to “follow” them. He would need to know where WWWH was in order to begin it there. He could join this path physically at any time. He could follow them in his minds eye, so to speak. IMO , or possibly my “perfect” solve isn’t.

    • The difference between a perfect solve and an incorrect solve is sometimes just a shift in perspective. I definitely agree that his use of the word “follow” does imply that there is a chance he didn’t physically have to go to all the clues as he could follow them with his eyes (or mind’s eye). For example, I have never been in the waterfall at Multnomah Falls, but I have seen it in person. Thus I consider myself to have been there.

    • My view is that it is not necessary to actually “step on” a clue to follow it, just as you don’t have to drive over a highway sign in order to follow its directions; you just have to know how to read it. In fact, I suspect most of the clues are of that nature. You don’t necessarily have to go right to that exact spot (although for some clues that might be necessary), but when you find the location of the clue, you know it is time to move forward and start looking for the next clue.

      Using the ever popular blaze as an example, suppose the blaze is a yellowish outcropping of rock on a mountainside. As you are walking along looking for a blaze, you come around the side of a hill and see that outcropping framed between two cliffs up ahead. You don’t necessarily have to go *to* that outcropping to say you have found the blaze, because you just found it when you came around the hill … it may be that as soon as you *see* it, you are supposed to “look quickly down”. If you try to actually go *to* the blaze, you walk out of the poem. Purely hypothetical example, of course.

      • If I mentioned the color of pineapple pie, would that be a hypothetical example of blaze-phemy?

      • Ray

        This is how Forrest last us know that he walked all the clues.

        He says he stepped on the first clue.

        When he said that the chasers that rely on driving said Maybe he means he stepped on the gas.

        Dumb

        • “…so it was easy for me to put one foot down and then step on it to get to the next foot.”

          C’mon lugz… he was power-breaking, sending up smoke signals.
          LOL I mean, he didn’t ‘say’ he step on the ‘ground’, right?
          He could have meant the gas and break pedals while driving from one clue to another…

        • When reading the entire statement about stepping on one foot to get to the next foot, he was talking about his process in writing the poem. It sounds more figurative than literal. Who steps on their own foot anyway?

          Was this the quote you are referring to or another?

  82. Question: How many of you think the Blaze is NOT clue #9? The simple 9 lines in a row sure is tempting to label as the 9 clues.

    In my solve, HOB is clue #3, but that means that either there is a line before the blaze that contains 2 clues, or, there is another clue AFTER the blaze.

    What is more likely, that “heavy loads and water high” is TWO clues, or, that something after the blaze is yet another clue, like in the last stanza “your effort will be worth the cold” OR “if you are brave and in the wood”? The only reservation I have about the last stanza is, I THINK he has INFERRED in comments that each clue is a geographical location. “In the Wood” COULD be that, or, it could simply mean you are out there in the wild/Forrest.

    So that brings up another question, is each of the 9 clues LITERALLY associated with a separate geographical location, or, is there wiggle room in his comments for there to be a clue that is NOT its own location?

    PS: I don’t get any notifications even though all the check boxes are checked. Does that work for anyone else?

    • Weird,
      I’m not subscribed to any websites but I get every comment made on this site to my email.

      I like heavy loads and water high as 2 seperate clues that are up your creek.
      I think the blaze is the last clue pretty close to HL & WH.

      Seeing this page is for WWWH, I see a direct connection or similarity to this 1st clue and where the last clue is. There must be some connection after reading and listening to Fenn’s comments.

    • Hi Corepuncher: for what it’s worth, I think the blaze is clue #9 (or more specifically, looking quickly down from the blaze). I think all of the following are hints:

      “But tarry scant with marvel gaze”
      “So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek”
      “So hear me now and listen good”
      “your effort will be worth the cold”
      “if you are brave and in the wood”

      • FF said that he didn’t count the clues until he had finished the poem. I take this as a suggestion that figuring out where one clue ends and the next begins won’t help us until we’re finished with the poem.

      • JW: I have a different take — do exactly as Forrest did. When you have your end-to-end decryption of the poem, count up the clues. If it’s 9, you’re good. If it’s something else, then perhaps something is amiss in your decryption. I say “perhaps” because hints vs. clues can be a semantic thing.

        Until the New Zealand radio interview was unearthed and we knew for certain that “Begin it where warm waters halt” was clue #1, I considered the first clue to be in stanza #1 because I felt that solving it did indeed bring you “closer to the chest.” But since Forrest doesn’t consider it a clue, then his interpretation must be that it (only) helps with solving WWWH, and thus by his definition it is a hint. I could argue it either way, but personally I believe what is in stanza #1 is equally as important as line 5 of the poem. But potato potahto.

        • I think the first stanza is more important than line 5 of the poem. Thinking only one is dependent on the other.

        • I didn’t discover the Chase until after WWWH had been unambiguously identified as the first clue, but I do agree that the first stanza is important. Since we know that there are apparently thousands of places in the RMs where Warm Waters Halt, my feeling is that the first stanza contains hints (not clues) about where to look for the correct WWWH. For me, it points to the mining regions of southwestern Montana. That’s a big area, but it is much smaller than the entire Rocky Mountains.

          I also seem to recall Forrest being quoted as saying WWWH is a place, not an area, which fits nicely with my theory. The clues work as a surveyor’s “metes and bounds” with WWWH as the PoB (Point of Beginning). But, you have to know where to *find* the PoB for the metes and bounds to make any sense. So, the first stanza is the equivalent of saying, “Go to the intersection of First and Main,” while WWWH is the tiny PoB survey marker somewhere in that intersection. Hard to spot, but not impossible for a wise surveyor who knows what he/she is looking for.

          As searchers, we are attempting to “beat the bounds” of a survey originally taken by Forrest when he hid the chest.

          • Ray;

            I have recently stated that I now believe that Stanza #1 is a prelude. Working as a prelude, it establishes a mind set that will be later used. “As I have gone alone IN THERE” Your mind is now set to look “In there” where ever that place is – It will help define the place EXACTLY.

            Stanzas 5 & 6 help narrow down a particular small area, but the “Hint” in stanza #1 of IN THERE tell the searcher exactly where in this small area to look – or so I believe – JDA

          • Would you see this mining area on a map? The right map? A map of mining areas? If yes I wouldn’t say it sounds feasible. If not then I have to wonder if it’s specialized knowledge outside of just a poem and a map.

          • Ray Henry: “I also seem to recall Forrest being quoted as saying WWWH is a place, not an area,”

            What’s the difference from a “place” or “area”?

            My hairs are splitting.

          • WWWH is not a broad area (like Yellowstone National Park or the Continental Divide or the Front Range), it’s a specific place. An actionable starting point. I’m sure I’ll get all sorts of grief from searchers who disagree with this, but Dal is my indirect source, and I’ll post the link to the full quote if people scoff at this.

          • That covers it perfectly Zap.

            Your kind of like the Beard of Knowledge from Pawn Stars but for Fennism.

          • Jake Faulker: “What’s the difference from a “place” or “area”?”

            It’s the difference between a point and a line or polygon.

            The Continental Divide would be a linear area, but Loveland Pass on the Continental Divide would be a place.

            Yellowstone National Park would be a polygonal area. The YNP park entrance near West Yellowstone would be a place.

            You can’t begin until you have a *place* from which to begin.

          • Ray: I get Jake’s beef over “place” vs. “area”. Semantically, those words are indistinguishable. It is better to use geometric terms, as you did in your follow-up. WWWH (IMO) is effectively a geometrical POINT, not a line, area or volume. If your starting point is vague, you don’t really have a starting point.

          • Aaron: “Would you see this mining area on a map? The right map? A map of mining areas?”

            When I read the first stanza I see about a dozen different ways it refers to the state of Montana in general. Many of those involve treasure, riches, or gold and silver. Those make me think of mines. Particularly ghost towns associated with mining. (“riches new and old”) A quick search on “montana mining” turns up stuff like this: https://westernmininghistory.com/state/montana/

            That gives me an area. Maybe one of those spots relates directly to the Chase and maybe not. But it suggests an area in which to start looking for a WWWH. Especially since much of that area is reasonably close to Forrest’s known locales of West Yellowstone, YNP, and Bozeman. It also doesn’t rule out a final destination in YNP, if the clues cross the state line.

            Maybe some would say that is specialized knowledge, but I don’t think so. You don’t have to be a miner or have a deep knowledge of mining to mentally connect riches to mines (especially old mines) and then do a Google search on where mines can be found in Montana. There is no special terminology or obscure names involved in getting at that information. You don’t have to pore over a book of regulations or know the name of some old mining icon. You just have to know that gold, silver, and gemstones come from mines.

          • Ray, in this case would your WWWH also be related to mining, or are you looking for an unrelated example of WWWH within a mining area?

          • Ray Henry: “It’s the difference between a point and a line or polygon”

            I’m from another planet and Earth is a place I would like to visit.

            There are some areas on Earth that would be nice to see like the Rockies.

            YNP is a place I would like to visit.

            Throw the polygonal, point and line label out the window.

            There is no difference between them.
            It’s basically how we interpret things.

          • Jake: if you’re visiting from another planet, you’ve mastered geometry.

            “YNP is a place I would like to visit.”

            That’s fine, but YNP in toto is not where WWWH (according to Forrest).

            “Throw the polygonal, point and line label out the window.”

            2, 0, and 1 dimensions. Extremely relevant to solving the poem — are you sure you want to toss ’em?

            “There is no difference between them.”

            So: no difference between a man and his shadow then?

        • Zap,
          I agree with you. From your comment to Corepuncher I thought you were parsing the clues just from the wording of the poem and not from a solution.

          I also agree that stanza 1 is critical. No chance of solving the poem if you don’t nail that, IMO.

    • clue 1- line 5, place
      clue 2- line 6, place
      clue 3- line 9, object
      clue 4- line 13, landscape
      clue 5- line 16, object
      clue 6- line 17, direction
      clue 7- line 20, distance
      clue 8- line 22, a spot
      clue 9- line 24, time and a distance
      key- line 9 (right to left), a date, and an elevation(which is already known)
      clue lines plus key line equals book of days, 29,220.
      adding clue lines vertically will give his initials, 2442.(6 6 or F F)
      Coordinates are found in some of these lines but not all.
      Coordinates will also equal 2442.
      Hints- too many to count.
      All clues could be defined as being geographical locations, as they take you from one spot to another along the path.
      Some hints are actually back up coordinates.
      JMO…

      • “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.” f

        Isn’t this what your doing?

          • Zap –

            I know you know what a positive solution is. I know you have done the math. So when Charlie points out that Fenn specifically used that phrase why do you ignore it.

            I will answer for you. It doesn’t work with your solve so YOU deem that Fenn meant something else.

            Anyone other than Zap should feel free to explore the potential meanings of “positive solution”. This isn
            t specialized knowledge as we all learned math and chemistry in school.

            IMO

        • Explain how it could mean this Brian.
          If it’s someplace I cannot go, then why would it be someplace that Fenn went?

          How do I marry this place I cannot go to a place on a map?

          • His past is where he cannot go anymore but in thought. NFBTFTW could be a place he has told us about. That he has not returned. Or,,, could be a bridge or river crossing. Also could be describing the canyon itself…

          • Hmmm,
            I’ve seen Hmmm on this site more times than I can remember. It’s like you know something I don’t.

            If I was you, I wouldn’t divulge any more info cause some here will go right to your secret location where the treasure is and leave you out.

            Why do we have to figure out what y’all thinking and doing when we need to figure out where Fenn hid the treasure?

            I’m taking my ball and going home until tomorrow.

          • Brian –

            Are you referring to Nine Mile Canyon in Utah?
            Why don’t you just say what you are thinking?

            Like Jake says, I don’t need to solve your clues unless you also hid a million dollar cache.

            Lug

          • I believe Brian is referring to page 101 of TFTW starting with the 4th paragraph on that page.

          • jake,
            do you believe that there are places you cannot go physically, but places into which you can take an imaginative journey?
            the derivation of the following is verifiable to anybody that is well vested in the chase. for others, theres a sky from ww on mw and scrapbook 182 should satisfy.
            it would behoove everybody to take an imaginative journey into:
            Oldrich Farsky’s “mountain vista”, oil on canvas.
            hint: stanzas 2-4 are there in their entirety and the blaze is white and in the shape of a horses face on the rock, viewers left side of creek..
            but start www is frozen in still life, find lil dude (or chick) in boat, skull, chest. its all there.
            sorry to all those that have spent countless dollars and hours looking for these ‘clues’ in the physical geography.

            ****above is contingent retrieval

            i really need to equip black race pony with a go-pro. hes prolly seen the box a dozen times.

  83. As a side note, I’m having a hard time finding a list of subjects on this website. The only way I know how to find them is to go to a search bar and type in “too far to walk”, for example, and then try to find the “this is a page about too far to walk” thread. Is there a list of individual thread subjects somewhere? I don’t see anything in the top menu, or on the right side.

  84. The first of the two trips he took from his car was probably the large fake tree stump he had to carry before he hid the treasure!!!! Lol

  85. If the clues did not exist when he was a kid but the places they refer to did,,,,, then are the clues far from describing places or areas? Do many together describe a one place? Hmmmm

    • I regard the clues as the text Forrest wrote, so they technically didn’t exist until he wrote them. But the places that inspired those clues were already there when he hid the chest.

      The possibility that all the clues combined point to a single spot cannot be discounted, in my opinion.

      I have several solves in the works. My “best” one so far has the form of a point-to-point trail (as most solves do), but I do have one that looks more like lines that cross each other. And I have heard of at least a few folks who are working solves where all nine clues describe a single spot. I’m not convinced of the “nine clues in one spot” approach, but some people are. And a couple people are working layered solves where the clues have multiple meanings depending on how far and how many times you have followed them. (Too complex for my brain. If that’s the correct approach, I will not be the one who finds Indulgence.)

      All you can do is look at the poem, TToTC, and Forrest’s various quotes over the years. If your theory isn’t disproved by that information, follow your clues and see where they take you.

      • Ray, there are too many places the clues could refer to. They are too vague. Thousands of smart people and still nothing. There is more to it than most think. I now try to not think logically like most. He said himself his mind is still thirteen. First stanza could be anywhere.. disregard until you find HOB. If you find that you are very close. Although WWWH is the first clue you may not need it till you discover the others, to know you are in the right place

        • If you know where to start,,, do you honestly think if he gave you the first clue you should start with it? Not me

        • Brian: don’t waste one brain cell trying to figure out HOB — you will NEVER solve that first. You must first solve WWWH. There is absolutely no other way.

      • Hi Ray: IMHO, the folks that think all 9 clues describe a single spot are wrong. It’s point-to-point. And I don’t think time of day has anything at all to do with a single clue. It’s solvable any day, any time, day or night, cloudy or clear, and if you don’t know exactly where to go before you leave home, you are not going to find it.

        • I generally agree. I think the main reason the poem is so difficult is because we have a tendency to *want* it to be difficult. After years of being an adult, there is almost an instinctive urge to dismiss the obvious as being “too easy”. I try to consult my inner child in developing my solves, but it’s amazing how hard that can be to do. That thirteen year old me seems to like sitting on his bed mocking me for not being smarter than him. Smug little twirp!

          And I do think the clues probably describe a trail to the chest, not a single point. All the treasure maps of my childhood always had a dashed line going from one place to another, finally ending where “X marks the spot”. Forrest’s poem may be in word form, but it is still basically a treasure map. We just have to understand his “dashed line” and his “X”.

          This isn’t going to be solved using geometric patterns, cryptography, linguistics, clock watching, or hidden coordinates. This is going to be solved by someone who picks up their child’s paper pirate hat, starts thinking like Captain Kid (a thirteen year old pirate), looks at the poem for the ten thousandth time, and has an “A-HA!” moment as the clues march through his (or her) mind cartoon style.

          I also think it may not be possible to have a full nine-clue solve before going BOTG, because I think some of the clues may not be listed on any map. At least, not by name. When Forrest says to “look at the big picture”, I hear him saying “look at the landscape – look at what’s around you.” Some of the clues may be of a “you’ll know it when you finally see it” nature.

          Just my $0.02.

          • I 100% agree with you. Keep letting your inner child work at it, with a bit of adult supervision – but not much – JDA

          • That was definitely a bargain at 2 cents. I would even say this should be included when introducing the chase to new searchers. Especially the 2nd and 4th paragraphs. My current solve only has an X because of past BOTG trips. Essentially, it is what I think I know that lets me think I know. Just wish I knew.

          • Nice post Ray. I agree with you about how this thing will be solved. Something is going to have to click in a persons mind that has been thinking about this for a very long time. I believe it will be someone or a group of someones that have used imagination to come up with various ideas until one makes it all line up perfectly.

            I also agree that we do not know if some of the clues will need to be found on site, including the blaze.

          • Ray…A lot of folks have come and are long gone since the Chase began. Your words above have been said by many in one way or another…and most of those have come and gone too. Some think this adventure is a quick, one and done, off to the bank scheme. Some day…who knows when…someone will think the right thoughts and walk right out and get that pesky treasure. Until then, I personally am content to just plug away at learning how to read that poem…and toss my nickels worth out there when I feel like it. Patience.

        • Zap –

          Whether or not the clues describe a single place is a matter of perspective.

          No one goes straight up a mountain. We go around and up or back and forth.

          Linear is probably incorrect both in terms of thinking and hiking the “clues” in my opinion.

          Lug

        • Ray –

          Zap did not solve WWWH first.
          So he is able to solve other clues first but for the rest of you:

          “you will NEVER solve that first. You must first solve WWWH”

          • Lugnutz: I know it bugs the bejeezers out of you that I’ve solved WWWH (IMO, of course!), but complaining about it incessantly isn’t going to produce the answer. You’re falling behind. Another searcher here has figured it out, and one more is very close to solving it. That should tell you that the hints I’ve provided are sufficient for anyone to do so. Like they say in the Wonderful Pistachios commercials: Get crackin’. 🙂

  86. Sometimes your brain needs a break:

    If WWWH is your bladder, the second and third stanzas takes on a whole new meaning…

    Begin it where warm waters halt
    And take it in the canyon down,
    Not far, but too far to walk.
    Put in below the home of Brown.

    From there it’s no place for the meek,
    The end is ever drawing nigh;
    There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
    Just heavy loads and water high.

    • My brain will take a break when I’m dead.
      Bladder is associated with #2
      #1 is where you’re going with this.
      Someone please hand me some toilet paper…
      I’m not sure F was thinking about WWWH is your bladder.

      We need imagination corepuncher but isn’t this going too far?

      • Jake: I’m not sure it’s any farther than thinking that “treasures bold” is Forrest’s “junk”. Let’s review:

        I’ve been a decorated Vietnam fighter pilot, I’ve run the most successful gallery in Santa Fe without the benefit of a college education (let alone specific art education), I’ve written ten books, I’ve wined and dined with actors, writers, songwriters, directors, former Senators, Congressmen and world dignitaries … and yet my poem is about outhouses, nakedness, and bathroom humor. When Forrest said his mind stayed at about 13, I don’t think this is what he meant. 😉

        • Hi Zap,
          (look familiar?)
          I’m not interested in your poem about outhouses and nakedness.

          Fenn’s poem is not about outhouses and you should get your mind off the potty.

          Excuse me while I flush your comment.
          Hey, the warm waters spin counterclockwise in the commode in the northern hemisphere. Coriolis effect?

          I wasn’t talking about dimensions and this is not the blog for such. I know all about dimensions and has nothing to do with the poem.

          “So: no difference between a man and his shadow then?”

          You seem to bent on something Zap and expressing it here and know your dog died so you can’t use that again.

          • Well Jake, it very possible when he said There will be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high. He could have made a funny. A bowl on a mountain. Lol

          • Jake, something you said just gave me a great insight. I’ll have to run it through some tests but it gives me a WWWH close to where I’ve been sticking some pins in the map. Thanks for sharing.

  87. Ok Jake, so I said hmmm, so what. I will tell you once I had all nine clues and I knew it. I was for sure 100% I knew right where it was. But guess what? It wasn’t there. All nine clues perfectly in order. Yet nothing. A search site half the size of a football field. I just couldn’t believe it. I wonder how many other people had the same experience? In my mind the clues are so vague there could be countless solves. We may never know. But what I do know is that it is TTOTC

    • Brian: my most recent solution pointed to a spot so small it could be searched in a couple minutes. I will not pursue another solution that isn’t equally specific. The person with the “correct solve” will spend virtually no time searching IMO — they will go directly to a very precise spot and be done. If you don’t have the blaze figured out before you leave home, I think your chances of success are zero.

      • I disagree, Zap! IMO the blaze is very hard to find and it will lead you to a “riddle in the riddle”… after solving that one you are at the X on the map. In my solve you can find all spots and places up to HoB before you put BOTG. Below HoB you put in and have to start searching, no chance to plan the following clues beforehand… I had seven trips and every single trip I had at least one visit to my favorite search area (besides other smaller side-solves). Every time I found new pieces to the puzzle and had to return home to get back in the thinktank. Unfortunately I really suffer from mountain sickness and am not able to think nor concentrate when I am at higher elevations but back in Berlin -at zerolevel- I find new ways and ideas and when it clicks I come back. I think I’ll be back towards the end of summer…

        • TLo;

          Sorry about the altitude sickness. I seem to suffer from it at any altitude – the not being able to concentrate part HAHA.

          Good luck when you do return.

          Once I had BotG (for the 21st time) It was easy to finally spot my actual blaze – My “X” is a bit of a ways from my blaze (less than 500′) – JDA

        • Hi TLo: some ATF support for my view:

          “My guess is that the person who is successful will very quietly solve the clues and walk to the treasure with a smile on their face.”

          “How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Another way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?)”

          “All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.”

          I think it’s pretty telling that Forrest indicated that all the clues could *theoretically* be solved from home. That tells me there cannot be a clue that is only visible in person, because if so there is no way that that clue could be theoretically figured out in advance.

          • “All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.”

            Zap, IMO this is another vague answer that could be read different ways. The fact that he says “a searcher must go to the site to find the treasure” could be suggesting that you have to follow more clues on site. If he used the word retrieve instead of find then I would say you’re probably right. To me to “find” something on site could mean following more clues.

            Use of the word theory is not quite absolute enough IMO.

            This is just another idea that we do not have enough information on.

          • Well yes, but somehow I feel like those ATFs support my way of thinking as well, just like Aaron stated! My blaze f. E. is very small and hard to find… from there I am guided to a riddle that is not in the poem… and the riddle will show me where the lines cross… I‘ve been there, found something but dif nog realizf its importance… now my eyes are open!

            @Ken: thank you! Somehow it has become part of my new life! It changed me, my views and my way of thinking and life!

            JDA: hahaha there are times when I think „was it the mountain sickness or am I somehow… let‘s say… naturally limited…“

            Best, Thilo

    • Most of us here had 100% sure solves.
      My 1st was a sure thing and my confidence level has gone down since the 1st in 2015. It was a humbling learning experience.

      Vague, countless solves. We are all in the same boat here.

      • My confidence level thankfully has gone up but so has my ability to accept that I likely won’t find anything.

        Some great wisdom there Jake!

          • this is a sea of some thing some where a kittens face or how about your umbrella from the top of your head where our brains rest or in my case its suppose to but doesn’t some times one more search where do you guys think i should go Montana Wyoming or new mexico the first clue Im clueless but i don’t want to stay at home good day to all

  88. It’s my understanding that ~350,000 have searched (armchair and BOTG)… so what are we all missing? Literal vs figurative? Backwards bicycle?

    We’re no thinking correctly… IMO

    Food for thought!

    –Fennatical

    • Where are you getting backwards bicycle from? I have an idea but don’t want to pollute your answer 🙂

      • Mr. Fenn,

        I am not even close to solving your riddle. I’ve tried for months and nothing works. I am not asking for a clue to the treasure, I’m asking for a clue to the clues. Please help me. ~Mary.

        Dear Mz. Mary,
        The solve is difficult for many searchers because their minds think the clues are tougher to decrypt than they really are.

        Some say they are trying to think outside the box, as if the solution lies somewhere out there.

        Until now I have resisted telling them to get back in the box where their thoughts are comfortable and flow more easily.

        The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust. To illustrate my point go to YouTube – Smarter Every Day. f

        When you go to this YouTube it features riding a Backwards Bicycle – JDA

        • Thanks JDA. That’s what I thought it was. I remember going to the youtube channel now. I can tell you spend a lot of time on this treasure hunt, you always have a solid reference handy. And kudos to you for keeping people on point, you can’t be sloppy when analyzing what Forrest has said, we must be precise!

          • Hi Jeff, is this the one you were looking for?

            From MW – Jenny Kile · July 1, 2016

            Mr. Fenn,

            I am not even close to solving your riddle. I’ve tried for months and nothing works. I am not asking for a clue to the treasure, I’m asking for a clue to the clues. Please help me. ~Mary.

            Dear Mz. Mary,
            The solve is difficult for many searchers because their minds think the clues are tougher to decrypt than they really are.

            Some say they are trying to think outside the box, as if the solution lies somewhere out there.

            Until now I have resisted telling them to get back in the box where their thoughts are comfortable and flow more easily.

            The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust. To illustrate my point go to YouTube – Smarter Every Day. f

            Here’s the link to the backwards bike video (but I don’t know how that one was chosen)

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

  89. I saw a mention of “bank” and a mention of “branches”.

    One bank is Chase. It has branches. I’m not very thrilled about that, but I’m old enough to remember the old quip “interest penalty for early withdrawal”.

    I plan to find the TC, rather than playing canasta. Then maybe I’ll be able to afford some pie. Instead of canasta, maybe I’ll play cymbals. As always, IMO.

  90. “Try and simplify” the clues… and think the right thoughts…
    We have been told not to overcook the poem, right?

    So here is a simply thought;
    I can keep my secret ‘where’
    Begin it ‘where’
    This might be too simplistic, but does this imply WWH is ‘where’ the chest lays in wait?
    OK, sound kinda reasonable, but it really doesn’t say much about ‘where’. So what do we have that may indicate where ‘where’ might be, by the first clues reference?
    Well, we have AHORNAO. This doesn’t jump off the paper at first, however, if we read the question in the poem, it seems to give answers to why “I must go and leave…” I would think, the first question a reader would ask is… leave from where? The simplistic idea would be, leaving the trove- at ‘where’- for all to seek.
    So while we’re all attempting to find the first clue, and some have, yet they didn’t seem to get the full extent of ‘where’ they were [ I always found that a bit strange. ] But we also have been told we need to ‘learn’ where the first clues is… because apparently just being there isn’t hacking it. So what do we have with the ‘where’ so far?

    ~”I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak”
    Depending on how anyone interprets new and old… there’s~ “done” that might refer to ‘old or in the past’ and “Now” I’m weak in ‘present tense.’ Should new and old refer to the idea of past and present… might it be ‘Where’WWH relates to tired and weak-?- as a place referencing the past and the present?
    Does ‘where’ refer to whatever tired and weak means, and ‘where’ WWH is and what it is about? and ‘where’- “in there”- might be reference to “in the wood”… with a bit of a twist… can all those ideas relate to “JUST” HLnWH

    It’s great that we that we should be able to marry/join clues to a map… only, do we find ‘answers’ to what the clues references are, on a map? I doubt it.
    This attempt is only trying to see the poem itself might be telling us how to discover the answers. In this attempt the idea is to understand “where” alone in there is / refers to, “where” WWH is / refers to, possibly understand In the wood as related to “where”, Why we have a question with answers.. yet not really know what tired and weak truly mean, Why hints of riches New and Old are told of, and the Idea that we need to understand “Just” HLnWH as a place to be at… seemingly the last place/reference before we ‘found’ the blaze.
    Is it the last place?
    Could “where” actually be HLnW and WWH to be the same place… and these clues are referred as New and Old? with the idea “In there”, “In the wood” and tired and weak all wrap around the one place they all might reference…
    I’m sure someone will say; how is this simple?
    My answer would be, are we not attempting to understand and find “where” this all unfolds… without picking a place we simply would like to search, make up a place using letters from words, relying on the book to tell us the answers… but rather utilizing the “information” in the poem… hoping to have the ‘right thoughts’ in mind.

  91. You’re welcome, but i think I said it better on Odds&Ends Sept. 19. “PRECISELY…. you can’t begin at the WWH place unless you know WHERE it is…. in fact, the very first word after BEGIN is WHERE ….. so maybe stop thinking that the whole WWWH is the first clue, only the WHERE is the first clue to be found, ….. Tricky wording but not invalid.”

    And I thank you for AHORNAO… I did not know it until I googled it. It may be a happy coincidental affirmation… but it is not too far a walk to think it may be deliberate. I had pretty much dismissed letter-counting and such as being in the class of codes and ciphers. (If some readers don’t know what AHORNAO is, it is the first letter of each word in line 4.)

    I had thought about a similar word in the past, A HORNO, an adobe bee-hive oven which the Spanish brought to the Americas and was adopted by the Pueblo Indians. Brown and toasty things in TTOTC suggested a happy cocina, a home of brown. In bread baking, the yeasty warm waters turn into steam leavening the dough, then evaporate (halt)…. but that seemed too far a walk.

    I wonder, did Mr. F expect his bones to be scattered by wild animals, or to petrify in a hot and dry place?

    • OS2;

      Not to be argumentative – But – you say, ” in fact, the very first word after BEGIN is WHERE …..” NOPE – The very first word after begin is “IT” – NOT where…. “Begin it where warm waters halt…” No big deal, but just thought I would state an obvious oversight – JDA

      • You’re right. I didn’t give ‘it’ the credence it is due. It may be a changer word, but changes are just more threads to think about, more forks in the path. Thanks for the correction JDA.

  92. For conversation sake and IMO.

    You said: Could “where” actually be HLnW and WWH to be the same place… and these clues are referred as New and Old? with the idea “In there”, “In the wood” and tired and weak all wrap around the one place they all might reference…

    I have given this a lot of thought. Forrest has said, in part: “a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help”. And: “… but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millenia”. And: “…The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact.”

    Dare I even mention the possibility of the other “g” word?

    In my opinion, this could help to support the possibility of an element of time. It could also help to tie all of the clues together, regardless of where they are. Forrest has also said to “thread a tract through the wiles of nature and circumstance…”. Could there be a common thread?

    Just another thing to think about. IMO.

    SRW

    • SWR ~’ Could there be a common thread?’
      Or as I think fenn meant by; thinking the right thoughts.

      That’s basically what I’m attempting. When I read the poem, the words take on new meanings in each reading. I can see the ideas / theories of death or dead, a colder climate, a narrated journey, a point to point stomping, stanzas 1 5 6 almost talking to/about stanzas 2 3 4, I can definitely read past present and future, etc. and all on a geographical / geological connection.
      The idea of the RM’s movement, for me, is not about major happenings. I think this is meant as natural movement [more or less] and having to do with preciseness of how the clues unfold…. and fenn gave an idea of this using the 1000 years down the road [3009] in one Q&A, imo. Yet, we have fenn saying he was thinking down the road 100-1000- even 10,000 years…That’s a very long ‘time’ span.
      So in-lines with the clue we have been told to nail down.. I think this is where searchers get messed up. Once they hit the line NF,BTFTW… they lose imagination [ again, imo ]. This line screams ‘time’ to me, as well as the idea TEIEDN… along with the tense throughout the poem. This is where I differ from the flock… I think “Begin it where” relates to a time in the past and what is today, and will be slightly different in the future. So… imagination is needed…

      If so, When was ‘where’?
      I just don’t buy into the idea this challenge was designed for us… today, in present time only. So when I look at GE [ which is all I’ll use for now ] I don’t see labels. I see the natural landscape [as best as GE can give] and try to see what was to what is. I also don’t buy into the idea that words in the poem have to have one usage only. Such as “where” can be a place now and a place in time. But we may need to start in the past… not unlike a searcher from the future would need to as well.
      So lets jump to ‘halt’… sure it can mean stop. However, should that be the intent, stop can be used as past tense as well. I think in regards to BIWWWH… its possible [ on a geographical/geological scale~ begin it “where” and “halt” relate to the past/ past tense. Stanza 2 doesn’t change from stanza 1’s past tense… basically I’m suggesting that the poem might be talking about a geographical time line. And one reason I like the idea this may revolve around the CD [Continental Divide] or In the mountains N.of SF. and nearly all [ WWH ] are north of…
      Now look at the preface of TTOTC: my church is in the mountains and along the river bottoms are where dreams and fantasies alike go to play. Dreams and fantasies ~ imagination.. this seems to imply the idea of the CD’s watershed. FTINPFTM, imo, this can be saying; home of the brave or the US RM’s. Creek in the next line can be considered [ by definition ] a narrow passage, as well as ‘in the wood’ as a saddle of a mountain pass [ No paddle is simply saying, not a waterway, but a watershed]…which I think can be interpreted as the CD as well. We also have the idea, in the same line of thinking, “just HLnWH” as involving the CD’s watershed…. Brave [US RM’s] In the wood [mountain passage] relates to the theory within stanzas 2 3 4.

      LOL so you might be able to see how “where” can relate to time on the RM’s mountains, involving water[s] that a future generation may be able to ‘think the right thoughts” [ without worrying about Molly Brown’s house, fish, Indians, grape soda, US [country] history, RXR track, etc. with a little more difficulty of the poem’s ‘preciseness’ of the clues… because of land movement.
      Oh! if you’re wondering what hoB ‘might’ refer to… In this theory… No meek means US [brave], or US RM’s which our national symbol is the Bald Eagle, hoB is; below Canada, and their symbol of the beaver… lol, yep, I said beaver…
      I’ll take it one step further and use a ‘second hand’ piece of info [ which I believe is accurate in wording ]… “where is your home?”

      But that’s just me and one reading of the poem… it all seemingly revolves around a solve involving the CD and time… and it’s waters.

      • Morning Seeker,

        Nice write-up. I can see what you’re saying. You made some really good points in your post above.

        Let me respond by saying this: Knowing that the Rocky Mountains are all connected, in one way or another, via the mechanics of one process or another, is probably a pretty good place to start. IMO.

        Knowing this (being wise even?), I believe I/we/all can now begin to explore our “where” (WWWH). This line of thinking can also help to provide a possible explanation as to “why” and “how” and “when”. The “when” leads us to “time”. This line of thinking, through the lenz of time, lends some credence to the element of time (concept/idea), when looking at the “big picture”, for me. IMO.

        You said in part: “…When I read the poem, the words take on new meanings in each reading. I can see the ideas / theories of death or dead, a colder climate, a narrated journey, a point to point stomping, stanzas 1 5 6 almost talking to/about stanzas 2 3 4, I can definitely read past, present and future, etc., and all on a geographical / geological connection.

        I cannot dispute much in what you’ve said above. When I read the poem, I see the exact same things: a beginning, warmth, a journey, death, cold, stomping, the physical landscape and time. All are connected, in some way. IMO.

        You also said this: So let’s jump to ‘halt’… sure it can mean stop. However, should that be the intent, stop can be used as past tense as well. I think in regards to BIWWWH… it’s possible [on a geographical/geological scale] ~ begin it “where” and “halt” relate to the past/past tense.

        I like what you’ve said here. Is it possible that the reason *they* began in the first place is very closely related to why they have stopped (halted)? Both events can relate to the past. IMO. Both can relate to time. IMO. Nearly all are N. of SF. Nearly. IMO.

        Lastly, I’ll attempt to answer your one “second hand” question that you presented: “where is your home?”

        My simple (or not so simple) answer is this: In the grand scheme of things, in a big picture kind of way, it’s where I moved to. It’s where I currently reside. It’s where I live now. It’s where I’ll live forever. IMO.

        A few thoughts for the day.

        The above is All IMO.

        SRW

  93. Agreed, Seeker. I like it.

    Also liking the sharper focus of your explanations, Hope you go further with it. I’m looking forward to seeing how, in the magical language of poetry, geologic time and tectonic movements gets to a 10”box nestled in a patch of weeds. I don’t doubt that it can and does,, but I want to see your vision of it. Thanks. OS2.

    • OS2

      You’re response did not post under the Seeker and so I don’t know what you’re commenting you on.

      Your mention of weeds prompts me to bring up winter again.

      Forrest says not to search in winter because it’s dangerous. I agree with that.

      It is worth noting that there is less low green stuff in your way in the winter. The TC may be more readily visible.

      Lugnutz

    • In TTOTC, anytime ff mentions something that could stand for WWWH (like many, I wrote them all down), it is almost always (there are a few exceptions) either (a) spring (including mentions of words like ‘bounce’–one of the definitions of bounce is spring); (b) kettle/pot/pothole (these are geological words, as well as containers for boiling things); (c) tears (there are a lot of mentions of tears); (d) death. Note: I didn’t include named rivers, although I guess one could argue the description of Miss Ford’s rage sounds like a Mad(ison? I guess he is a son) River to me. So I think tears are in the realm of possibility. In general, they halt on your eyeball/I ball… unless they spill over…

      • Mr. Fenn said, that a searcher “would not know” they had the correct, WWWH, until they found the chest. This seems to suggest that there is nothing in the TTOTC book or the poem, that identifies the correct WWWH.

        • Just my opinion, the area to find the “right” WWWH can be narrowed down to a small area by deciphering the first 3 lines of stanza #1. Then line 4 of Stanza #1 says “now follow the clues” and line 1 of stanza #2 is the first clue. That’s very straightforward, I know. But, just my opinion. Good luck to all on the search. Jeff

          • Jeff,
            That’s great and all, but without an example or explanation, it’s just a guess.

            Don’t get me wrong, I think we need a location first and foremost.. then follow the clues. But what is it about stanza 1 that tells us ‘where” that is. Why can’t the info be for stanza 5, or a combination of 1n5? or even stanza 6?

            For the sake of argument… lets say all the clue [ that actually get you to the hide ] are in stanzas 2 3 4. That’s only 1/2 of the poem… IF stanza 1 does what you say, why are there two more stanzas?… 15 years of working the poem to get it just right, every word being deliberate and risky to discount any word, says to me, no fillers in the poem.
            So in the idea of getting the “correct” WWH location.. how does stanza 1 accomplish it all by itself?

          • Seeker, I like what Jeff wrote and how he sees stanza 1. I’d say all 4 lines of stanza 1 are needed to coax out a specific geographical place, imo.

            An example of what this mechanism could be is a riddle.

            About your later questions about what do we make of stanzas 5 and 6, or combination of 1 and 5, if this is the case. It would be in a sense more straightforward not to have to combine 1 and 5. Some could say more elegant. You wouldn’t need to cut and paste stanzas. The clues are in order so why not helpful information that helps with the clues also be in order as read in the poem. Can you answer the question of do you think f is capable of providing the correct general geographical location from just stanza 1 that helps point a searcher to the corrrect wwwh?

            What about the stanzas 5 and 6 if there are no clues or hints in them. All the more beautiful. One of the beautiful things about doing a magic trick is providing all kinds of information in the story that the viewer has to process to get how the trick is done. Not all the information given helps explains the trick.

        • James,
          fenn has also said; nail down WWH or stay home.

          The idea of “knowing” will not happen until the chest is found, is simply common sense.
          I won’t “know” if my new truck will start until I turn the key, right? ‘Knowing’ is absolute with the need of proof/fact… hence to engine turns over.

          • Hi Seeker, I agree with what you are saying. It’s the “nailed down part” that bugs me. That’s a really strong statement to make, there’s no ambiguity there. It implies that we know the truck will start, before we turn the key. It probably wasn’t meant to be, but it sounds like two conflicting statements. I’d like to know which it is.

          • Hi Seeker, James,

            Here’s my .02 cents about the “nailed down” comment.

            For me, it isn’t so much about having the nailed part nailed as it is about having the down part down. Reads confusing, sorry about that.

            Anyways, the full Fenn quote is this: If you don’t have that one nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta.

            I do think this quote holds a hint(s). So here’s another way for me to try to say what I’m trying to say:

            down ————> home.

            All IMO.

            SRW

          • SRW,

            I’m not a word play guy so apologies to myself if i just committed some self inflicted embarrassment.

            Could I use your word analysis and come up with:

            Down _____________> Play?? If so, what would that mean. If not, could you enlighten me. Thanks Jeff.

          • Hi Jeff,

            You asked: Could I use your word analysis and come up with:

            Down _____________> Play?

            Yea. I like it. This plays nicely where I’m thinking on looking. Does it work at yours?

            I wonder if there’s more to be found in this one single comment?

            Try this one:

            one —-> down —-> home —-> play?

            All IMO.

            SRW

          • SRW,
            To my uncertain knowledge, it doesn’t work for me. Good luck to you on the chase, Jeff

      • Lady V, nobody commented on what you wrote so I will. I think you are very much right on your research. It could be that all those things will make up WWWH. To take it further, nails could be in play, staying home and playing Canasta, to me, sounds like retirement. Finding “out’. I believe all these things referenced with wwwh will somehow come into play with the location.
        Tears to me says Veterans Memorial Highway, since we won’t know we have wwwh until we have the chest, it is most likely that having it nailed down is not meant to mean, totally correct. More like nails will come into play. Railroads, construction zones, hardware stores(my favorite), things where nails are used.
        Spring is also good. Like a creek, a spring. Since I’m in Montana, Warm Spring Creek comes to mind. Plus, how a searcher solves for line 5, and maybe line 6.
        I think all these things will come into play when describing the first clue. The one thing that is the “sneaky” kicker is that “you have to find out”.
        I’ve posted forever, I don’t think you can solve for wwwh, I think you will find the end spot, the “X” on a map, and then draw your path. You would have to find out to find the starting place. This starting place will be wwwh. And, it will have all references to what we have posted.
        I’m biased to this post, but I believe you are right on your research. For me, I start in Anaconda, and it references everything that is said about wwwh. I could never solve for it on it’s own, I needed to solve the poem, get my “X”, and draw my path. Anaconda is where I start. So yes, I am biased to my way of seeing wwwh.
        If it actually can be solved on it’s own, I think you would be on the right track in noting everything about wwwh from f’s comments. You would just need to get around his ATF about the info to solve for wwwh just is not out there. He has never actually given enough info to solve for it.

        • Thanks, Charlie! I agree with what you’ve said. I love the Anaconda area, too… SO much there.

  94. The line of thinking from Jeff O, SWR and James P are going so far as to say that Stanza 1 directs one to the location of wwwh, is nonsense. There is nothing in that stanza that gives the name of the location of wwwh.

    If you read the full statement,over on MW 6/2/2014 “The most common mistake that I see searchers make is that they underestimate the importance of the first clue. If you don’t have that one nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta.” f You take the full context he is not giving a hint, and he is empatically say you need to nail down the first clue, which is wwwh. Parsing out the word *down* both in the poem and F’s statement to mean down__>Home or down__>play, is nonsense.

    Down in the poem means exactly what is says, “take it in the canyon down”, you go down the canyon, down does not mean south. The poem is straight forward and in plain English [Paraphrased]

    Also the statement from F is saying “nailed down” means you need to know wwwh, before you can move forward to the next clue. Without wwwh you have nothing to start with. There also are no hint or clue in his statement. What I’ve seen it is merely grasping for straws that aren’t there.

    Once again the poem is straight forward and in plain English. The very first time anyone that has read the poem, most likely was being read the correct way. Then poem is a map speaking of places and which way to go, if you can’t follow those places and directions, IMO you might as well stay home and play canasta.

    Forrest worked hard with the poem, the only thing that is vague is wwwh the rest will be discovered providing you have the right starting point and don’t distort the words and stanza 1 & 5 are the few words that will not help in finding the treasure. Some think that all of the stanzas contain clues and refusing to believe that there as most say is *fluff* and ignoring completely what F has said.

    IMHO dissecting words to mean something else and linking stanzas 1 & 5 to give clues as where to start also is grabbing at straws. Stick with the poems order and the clues consecutive order, NO SHUFFLING of anything will produce better results, provided you can nail down the first clue = that you are very sure or confident of the starting place.

    Just Say’n

    • CM, I see you pointing out a number of opinions on how not to find WWWH. Want to share how you think it can be found without other hints in the poem?

      • Aaron,

        Sure, you need to learn as to investigate why wwh and I personally don’t see much of this. Anything else IMO is a guess. That’s just me to investigate, how can I learn if I don’t investigate?

        • I agree that investigation is needed. It seems like we need to investigate all aspects of the poem though in an effort to determine the location of the first clue. I try to keep an open mind on how to do so without missing something. We do not know if stanza’s 1, 5, a combination of the two, stanza 6, etc., will help us find WWWH until we have found the chest. I cannot see how the single line BIWWWH helps us on it’s own, so where else do we look?

        • Aaron: I 100% agree that “Begin it where warm waters halt” does not provide enough information to tell you exactly where to start, and more importantly, to be reasonably confident it’s right. That information logically must come from elsewhere in the poem since we have Forrest’s ATF: “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”

          • Zap, I know you are confident on your WWWH. Answer this at your own peril. Do you use hints to lead to a place based on it’s name, geography, or something else?

          • Hi Aaron: Forrest would say, “Thoughtful question.” I’ll give a partial answer: my WWWH does not have a name, but a name (or names) are instrumental in finding it.

          • Jeff,

            That was back in 2008, its about fishing and nature. I don’t see the connection to wwh or even the poem.

            Just Say’n

          • CM,
            The article is effectively the FLYWATER story. So why do you think he removed those two references in the FLYWATER version and only referred to them as “Where” and “There”? I find that just a little bit interesting as it relates to Stanza 1.

            If I read that article and then read FLYWATER, I at least have one real connection to a WWWH that I know he loved and I know was special to him. The WW is the comfortable bathing water’s at Ojo Caliente (There) with treasures bold (yep, not talking about Indulgence) keep my secret where (Montana).

            Now where is WWWH? Madison Junction. Why? because Mr. Fenn’s comfortable bathing waters end there.

            So for me, this one checks off a lot more boxes than any other WWWH I have read about. Trust me, I wish I had better one near Atlanta, GA but since I have to fly either way and I really don’t have a special affinity for one state over the other, well then I will fly to the state that presents the best WWWH all IMVHO. Is it the “right” one. I will let you know in couple weeks.

            I would love to hear other searchers WWWH solutions but I need to understand the concrete deduction and logic otherwise my head starts spinning. Best of luck, Jeff

          • Hi Jeff: there are interesting differences between the 2008 version and what ultimately appeared in TTOTC. As you point out, he changed “fished in Montana as a kid” to “fished as a kid”, and he cut “Those great places on the Firehole” to just “Those great places.”

            Side note: he still spelled the first cadis the same way, but in the second instance he spelled it “Caddis.”

            The end of the final sentence was changed from “many of which were knowing you were there, somewhere, waiting for me” to “one of which was knowing Peggy was there, somewhere, waiting for me.”

          • Zap,
            That’s right. So having no better options, I went with that one.

            BTW, I was following the runway discussion over on the scrapbook but didn’t see a need to weigh in. I did take the time to look at the satellite image at ABQ. I think I saw what could be described as the “scar” of and old north/south runway. If I were a betting man, that’s the runway Mr. Fenn landed on that day. I don’t think I’m any closer to the treasure for knowing that but thought I would share in case it’s important to someone. Good luck, Jeff

          • Jeff: I’m sure you’re aware that a lot of searchers (including Dal) have used Madison Junction for years as a WWWH to no avail. Doesn’t mean it’s wrong, but it does mean you’ll have to have something pretty clever and original for the remaining for it not to have been tried by someone else. (For instance, Hebgen Lake as home of Brown is *way* overused, and a pretty awful answer, in my opinion.) Good luck!

          • Zap, sincerely appreciate the advice. yes I’m aware but, only of what has been shared online. I have to be realistic about the possibility that other places beyond Hebgen, Quake and others have also been searched but not shared and that’s a real risk to my location. Many searchers may have been there many times and I won’t know until I get there. It’s the thrill of the chase right? But just in case, I will have a fly rod. Cheers, Jeff

          • Jeff: you have a healthy attitude, and with a fly rod you are almost guaranteed to have a great time, bronze box or not. Keep your fingers crossed on the weather, though. Yellowstone has snow in the forecast at the end of this week, and greater accumulations expected the middle of next week.

          • Yep, not what I had hoped but, plans are made tickets purchased, and fingers crossed….

      • Aaron, if I can, without other hints in the poem, sure. The poem will give you a number value system. A=7, B=2, C=3, D=1, etc….. once you have the numbers, going back over the poem will yield coordinates within certain parts of the poem. Like Begin it where warm waters halt being “Epsom”. Epsom being the sum of e+p, or 4. In this case, we are starting with the first number in the latitude degree. There are also hints in the book that will support.
        Once you have these coordinates, you can get a map to see where they direct you to. With that “X” on a map, a path can be drawn on how to get there. Where you start is your wwwh is. That place will have references to all the statements used by f for wwwh.
        So, wwwh cannot be solved by other hints in the poem, it cannot be solved. It could be found, by finding “out” from your end spot.
        Sorry to chime in for CharlieM, but wanted to show one way as you asked, because I’m sure he doesn’t see it this way, but there is a way. A clue to the numbers is breaking down and solving the 21st line. Also, no paddle up your creek, blaze, gaze, and other things. If you look at it long enough, you will see where I am coming from…

        • Charlie, I have found some interesting things in the poem, as it relates to numbers but nothing that has helped with coordinates so far. If you believe coordinates are in the poem, and you have found them, then what is stopping you from finding it?

        • Charlie –

          I am fascinated by what chasers come up with for where warm waters halt.

          Here you are referring to Epsom

          I imagine you say that because Epsom is a hydrate. There are many hydrates.

          Why Epsom?

          • BotG does not mean you have solved anything. You take peoples criticism and become defensive instead of trying to see what they are saying. And, from what I remember, your solve had nothing to do with solving a poem. Just guessing and a history lesson.
            You’re new, I get it, you are in the first year rut, I get it. The test is to solve the poem, we all can research, we don’t need to be told of some area that sounds like the poem and given a history lesson. What we do need is viable POEM solves to learn from and build.
            You say that others are nonsense for what they think, so you get a little flack. Keep on thinking you are on the right track, fine with me, don’t look at other avenues, to each their own, but if you are going to put yourself on a pedestal and remind us we are all fools, be prepared to offer good support from a solve and not just random guessing.

          • Lug, it’s just how that line breaks down for me.
            Begin (it) w “here”. Gives me:
            Begin wit,
            next: warm waters (and the letter “h”) alt(or alternate). Left with:
            Begin with warm water salt. 🙂 Epsom.
            lol, my next line, candy own it, or city..
            Lines 5&6: begin with Epsom and city. Wwwh will have something to do with a “salt city”. (that’s a hint).
            Don’t know if you saw, but your (feet, syllable) thing worked out just fine. Good support info. Comes from line 20 solve for me. To me, line 20 is: I’ve edit ted and I’m weak, which comes out to: I’ve 1 32 and 3’3 too. I’ve 159. My clue stanzas are 2-6, the syllables in stanzas 2-6 come out to 159. Feet of the poem, says 159′.
            I know it might as well be Chinese mathematics to you, but to me, makes sense. So, is possible that it is good support info. Just like Seekers “Medicine Wheel” for me. Funny how this poem works out sometimes…

          • Charlie –

            If I saw things the way you do, with all the numbers, it would drive me to drink.

            As long as you are having fun I will share one of my funner ideas from way back when.

            What recipe begins with warm water and salt? How about sourdough?

            Lugnutz

          • Lug, I love to drink. I like beer, I drink beer, I don’t pass out from drinking beer, uhhh wait, that’s someone else’s comments. Anyway, whenever a searcher that has been around awhile gives some insight, I always check it out. I will check on sourdough.:) If they like it in Surrey, or North downs in England, I would be shocked. Don’t know how it would get closer to chest, But according to Zap, only a couple of searchers have figured out wwwh is, so everything I have must be wrong anyway. Here’s one:
            Deer Valley, got it’s name from all the deer that would come down the mountains to feed on all the salt deposits. The whole area is a dormant geyser system, classified under Yellowstone. The only “city” in Deer Valley? Anaconda. Wwwh, dormant geyser. Warm Spring Creek, Hwy 1, veterans memorial hwy. For most, that may be enough info, but it’s not. I still think that you cannot solve for wwwh, as unpopular as that may be, I think wwwh needs to be found. Finding out, learning where to start kind of thinking.
            To f, solving a clue is being at the spot, to us, solving a clue is understanding everything there is to the clue, how it was found, process in finding, and tools of solving. So when f says some have solved the first couple of clues, to me, it’s like saying searchers just showed up at the right place and know nothing. Zap says that a couple searchers have found, solved for the same wwwh is. lol, sorry but odds are, that would probably be wrong. I just don’t see solving wwwh is when f put our a comment stating that he has never, within the book, which has the poem, given the info to solve for it. It’s just mind boggling being told the info to solve is not out there to solve, but, searchers have solved it. It’s almost like saying the chest is below water, even when f said that it isn’t.
            I like how the syllables worked out. That was the one number I didn’t have support info for. Everything else seems to have at least support info, I just couldn’t find it for that number. Now I have a solve that has all support info to back up everything. I’ve always said that this puzzle would not be solved with just one mind.

    • So Chuck, how can we nail down the first clue as you say, when f has stated that he has not given info to solve for it?
      If the poem is so straight forward, in plain English, I see nowhere that any place is actually referenced. It’s reading the poem for it’s face value that searchers start their mistakes. If the poem was so straight forward, it would have been solved years ago.
      I do agree, NO SHUFFLING of the poem. Unless the poem instructs you to do something, don’t mess with the poem.
      Also agree that not all stanzas hold clues. Stanza 1 has no clues.
      I believe you are wrong about ‘nailed down”. We cannot have the first clue “nailed down” until we have the chest. Then it means nothing. So, to start, you won’t have it nailed down. So that statement must have another meaning. He, IMO, is giving a hint, nails…
      And I agree with you, nothing in the first stanza will direct you to wwwh. In fact, nothing will direct you to wwwh except the solve of the poem. The finding of the end spot. The “X”, like he has stated.

      • Charlie: I don’t think your hardware stores and nails are going to last 1000 years. (Not to mention that hardware stores are clearly structures, as is anything held together with nails such as RR tracks.)

          • Okay Chuck, nice rebuttal. Your right, face value the poem to death. You are miles ahead on the learning scale when it come to the chase. (in a whisper to self, they just never listen)…

        • That’s why they are HINTS Zap. Come on, you’re smarter then that. The chest is a man made structure isn’t it. I said all those things will come into play when describing wwwh. they are all hints that help with the clue. You know all this Zap, stop trying to think you can actually solve for wwwh on it’s own. You still need to get around the ATF, you know which one.
          Are there hinges on the chest, maybe a clasp or key, I think those would be man made. Lol, Zap. Nice try…

          • Charlie: first off, I don’t “think” I can solve for WWWH, I know I can. At least a half-dozen of us here have come up with the same spot.

            As for using the chest as an example of a manmade structure, sorry Charlie: the chest is not one of the clues, so that ATF doesn’t apply.

          • Zap –

            I do not understand how you can say you KNOW what WWWH is if you do not have the chest.

            And of course, none of the 5/6 have the chest.

            It will be interesting to some day know what made you FEEL so certain.

          • Lug: I’m using “know” in the sense of having something nailed down with confidence. Akin to a murder trial where there is a lack of reasonable doubt. I don’t “know” that the sun will come up tomorrow or that my car will start when I leave work today. But I’d bet a decent chunk of change that both will happen.

      • IMO the poem gives the search area by name. You
        have to know the true search area to know where
        WWWH is located.
        The key word is in the poem to help you locate the true
        search area . The key word is, OLD, Dal will post
        my solve soon, he has been very busy. My solve is
        a lot of old papers that and pictures that is not put together very well. There are letters that are not supposed to be where they are. My solve is of 80 year
        old man that has half his mind that has wonder off some place, and the other half has gone out looking for
        the part that has wondered. You will see if you look closely at this solve that within these writings, and pictures you will see where f, has told you where
        the search area is. If you look at Google Earth you will
        be able to see the warm springs that run into the
        Fire Hole River and halt being warm. My solve will
        show you where the Home of Brown Bears is located.
        This area going up the trail is no place for the meek,
        that is only at times where the bears move into the area. You will travel up this trail to the point to see
        the Blaze. My solve will tell from there, which meadow
        to go to, then where to go within of 600 feet of the TC. From this spot on the trail, you have a ninety degree
        angle, the point of this ninety degree angle is where
        the TC is buried, under Pine Tree debris or dirt.
        I knew where the chest was at my last both, but I
        was not able to cross my creek to the chest. I will not be able to try again. I am not able to go back, so the solve will be posted when Dal has enough time.

        Sam Anthony

      • HA, SRW…

        CharlieM may have never read a mystery book. Ya know, where something happens in the beginning but nobody knows exactly what happened… as you read on… clue are presented, yet the clues don’t really make sense, until later, more information is known of, and it all unfolds right before your eyes…

        Think ChalieM would like straight forwards to only mean; manner, action… and dismisses; without concealment or deception; honest.
        I mean, Plain English is; that is easy to understand, emphasizes clarity and brevity… right?

        [paraphrasing the following for space];
        ~fenn said, he looked up words and definitions and changed them, rebooted.. it came out exactly as he wanted [ the poem ]
        ~In a Q&A, asked a searcher to write down all the definitions of several and look it up… that people use words everyday that they don’t know what the mean.
        AND, wrote a “poem” that’s sole purpose is to be “interpreted” by the words used within.

        But I wonder if, plain english simply says, plain language instead of jargon. LOL I mean many like to describe the poem as ambiguous… as unclear or inexact.
        I like to think it’s more in-lines with; having a double meaning. Which is why poems allow many usages of a single word that can work at one time, rather than a single usage only in other literature.

        So CharlieM would like, Take It In, to be only one usage as a physical movement, and dismissed any other meaning, such as, viewing in… also in Plain English… but just interpreted differently.

        When I read others who say; ~ ‘Down in the poem means exactly what is says, “take it in the canyon down”, you go down the canyon, down does not mean south. The poem is straight forward and in plain English [Paraphrased]’

        I’m reminded of a Q&A where fenn stated [paraphrasing] an 80 yrs old is not doing down and up and down a canyon. [also fenn’s comment of; two trips to the hide seems to imply the down, up and down idea].
        And fenn’s constant reminder; don’t go where an 80 yr old can’t. So when fenn stated he followed the clues “when” he hid the treasure… ya have to wonder which “take it in” [usage] possibility is more likely, logical and straight forward, in all honesty.

        • Seeker,

          I do read books of many kinds including mysteries. That is an assumption on your part and I would like to say you don’t know me.

          It’s apparent that you completely dismiss what I think, that’s okay, however you like to put many different theories of countering what some people say, that’s okay also. You more than likely was a debatist for quite sometime, it is assumption on my part, its just what I see.

          This begs the questions, have you ever had a solution and botg?

          As far as going down the canyon is once and not twice and then one continues with the clues from there. There is nothing that I said above in doing things twice down and up the canyon.

          You missed the boat entirely.

          Just Say’n

          • CharlieM;

            Minimal research will disclose that Seeker has published two solves here on this blog. BotG? Seeker will have to answer that one himself – JDA

    • Hi CM,

      Just one clarification. I only suggested stanza 1 could possibly assist in narrowing the search area for where a person might find the “right” WWWH and since Mr. Fenn said there were so many WWHs in the RM. It just seems logical to try in some way to use the poem to narrow it down.

      All of the other chit-chat was simple word “play” w/emphasis on play. Hope that helps. Jeff

  95. Wasn’t there an SB or something about door nails, & dead as a door nail? And in horse-shoeing, is there something about crimping the nail? Measure the length, double it & add an inch or something? …….I think its in the ‘nothing is too small to know’ story? ….I’m not able to check right now but ie maybe time for a review of pounding out distances.

  96. Let’s say you wrote the poem to try to describe where the treasure is without it being too easy. Then, you say you have to nail down the first clue (wwwh). You also say that there are many wwwh in the Rockies.

    How do you narrow down the area to get the finder near to the correct wwwh?

    There may be a few ways, but one way that it could work is to name the wwwh somehow in the poem. This doesn’t mean that you have to figure out the name first to get to the correct general location. But, seeing the name in a later clue would increase the “nail down” factor.

    One other thought…if I was crafting the poem with the above factors to consider, I probably wouldn’t name a clue in the middle of the clues. I would name the first clue.

      • Jeff,
        One idea is wwwh could be one thing over a large area, nailed down by the idea of hoB.
        Might this be why the comment of; folks don’t ‘dwell’ enough on wwwh be a suggestion?

        • Anything is possible right? I hope to rule out one more possibility for everyone in a couple weeks.

          • Seeker,

            More specifically, my thinking was that there are many WWWH in the RM but only one that mattered to Mr. Fenn. I know that is really simple and straightforward. Barring some other concrete logic, that’s all I have. I can’t decipher your suggestion so I’m of no help other than to acknowledge anything is possible and if your suggestion is correct then I truly wish I could understand it.

            Sorry, that’s not much help. Good luck to you on the chase, Jeff

          • Jeff,

            Here’s another f quote (in part) that leans a bit in the direction of Seekers last comment: “…although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues…”. The two comments seem closely related. IMO.

            Best of luck on your upcoming search. I’m gonna try and squeeze one in before the snow flies too!

            All IMO.

            SRW

          • Here’s another partial quote from f about wwwh and hoB.

            If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?

          • FD,

            The context of that one is a little tricky IMO. I believe Mr. Fenn was poking fun at the person who asked if he could reverse engineer the poem from HoB to WWWH. J.O.

          • Just for fun… Lets say WWWH is all connected in some way, yet still has individual locations. This would give the idea of the ‘big picture’ and a single location nailed down by understanding what WWH refers to as a big picture.
            The CD is the watershed of the entire RM’s.. so lets call it WWWH [ for now ] But we still need a place to be at. I don’t think ‘canyon down’ is somewhere a searcher needs to go, but rather where {all} the waters go. Halt in this case could mean: a change… In solid to liquid and/or change in direction, such as rain [vertical to horizontal runoff – sky to land, idea]
            NF,BTFTW is the travel of the waters.

            IF possible that WWWH could refer to the big picture… we would need hoB to nail the location down. { note; if you’re stuck on the idea all clues must be a single physical location… this will not work for you} OK – in theory, we have a reference to WWH with the need of a location, which could be hoB.. so how do we discover hOB? We need to read the next stanza to help… stanza 3 could imply NPFTM to be the RM’s within the USA or the idea of ‘home of the brave’ in which the semicolon [or semi-1/2] relates to the lower half of the range [ keeping in mind the whole time of the CD ] Creek in this stanza may not mean water only as it can be by definition; a narrow passage [thinking along the lines of the CD trail and on the USA lower half]

            Great, big picture, right? but where on the CD is the location? IF NPFTM can refer to the US, the hoB could refer to Canada [ US national symbol vs. Canada symbol…being the brown beaver, Capitalized as; a ‘title’ of…] Which may imply the area would be just below Canada on the CD.

            So that picture affect as given a possible location to look into out of all the location that related to WWH [ in part ] referring to the CD. But is now a smaller / single area. Is this idea how we utilized the poem? IDK.. but it’s a bit better than simply throwing a dart at four states and hope it hits something good. using some kinda code to produce a name etc.

            LOL.. If you would like a name of an area… I’d refer to HLnWH which could imply Waterton Lake, MT ‘bordering’ Canada and the US on the CD [passage]… a lake created by glacial [waters halt ] activity and runoff of the watershed. This doesn’t fit the standard method of stomping… and I will agree that it’s a bit difficult to actualize why fenn would “follow” the clue “when” he hid the chest [ other than, in this theory I’m missing something ]

            However, this is an example of how we need to read the poem, in full, to understand how a large area that ‘could’ refer to WWH with a specific location in mind, by using “all the information in the poem”… Basically say; we may need to create what the blueprint material shows us… build the location from that material… “learn” where the poem’s WWH is and maybe why it is.
            >>> Just go in peace, your quest to cease.

            Just rambling and rumbling……

          • Seeker;

            An interesting theory. I have been playing with a similar theory, but it relates to the last Ice Age that existed 1.8 million years ago up to about 11,400 years ago. Here is a link that shows a map of what the Ice Sheet would have looked like 21,000 years ago. Of interest to me is the small sheet that covered the NW portion of Wyoming. This small sheet could have played a role in my solve.

            Here is the link: https://www.google.com/search?q=map+of+us+during+last+ice+age&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=go4tL5EBespFaM%253A%252CogBKfvB-IUE4QM%252C_&usg=AI4_-kTvnd1Drl7xfno49ZNIHWgZxqPQtQ&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwivh5Ots-rdAhXlITQIHZTaB2cQ9QEwAHoECAMQBA#imgrc=0U_Q8ZrXGZ-D9M:

            Just a theory that seems to dovetail (in a way) with yours, and with your “Mind of an Abstract Thinker” solve of a couple of years ago. – JDA

          • Jeff, I’m not sure if f was poking fun at the searcher’s question or if f was serious. I think f finds ways to be coy with answers that sound funny but truth underlies the content.

          • JDA

            If you can reconcile glacier activity to the comment, nearly all are N.of SF… more power to ya. I can only make a connection to WWH, the RM’s and the glacial times using the CD… which is more about the up lift of the land rather than the scoring idea… call the idea, the leftovers, if you will. But it’s a stretch at best.

            For me, to have any idea / theory for a reference involving wwh… it need to pass the sniff test ~ S. of SF, regardless of any time period.

          • FD, I agree with your coy comment completely.

            The funny part for me and why I took Mr. Fenn’s response as funny is because if a person who “in theory” had the correct HoB and instead of moving forward in the poem to find the chest wanted to reverse engineer and find WWWH. I mean I got a chuckle out of the folly in that. Hope that makes sense. JO

          • Seeker, like Zap, it is hard for me to believe that FF was referring to a specific type of WWWH being the ones that are nearly all north of Santa Fe. It seems more likely to me he is referring to all types of WWWH. In either case, letting that one quote dissuade from a WWWH could turn out to a costly decision.

          • Yes, begin it at the Laurentide ice sheet as remains in northern Wyoming 21,000 years ago…

          • Yes, Jeff, I see the folly in that reverse engineering pursuit. But that doesn’t take away from an important possibility that they are the two same things and the poem diguises that some.

          • Aaron –

            I do not know what you think warm waters is a reference to but I would like to point out that we are not looking for warm waters. We are looking for where they halt.

            If I told you to begin where the sidewalk ends you wouldn’t be looking at the spot where the sidewalk ends. You would be looking beyond that. It means to get out of the city.

            The vast, vast majority of chasers only talk about that literal point where waters halt, where the sidewalk ends.

          • Lug, I’m not sure what your comment is in reference to but I wholeheartedly agree. I think it is sill to just think a hot springs in and of itself is a potential WWWH. Looking for warm water is not enough without the halt.

        • I did once think there are no trout waters or “warm waters” in Yellowstone (big area) and HoB was the entire Madison River, all 183 or 186 miles and that the “home” meaning origin or beginning of brown was the Madison Junction. I ended up there anyway. I think Subliminally I just need to go fly fishing in Yellowstone.

        • Aaron ~…It seems more likely to me he is referring to all types of WWWH.’

          It could possibly be… however the Q&A mentions the use of the poem as well [ both in the question and answer ] And folk will have to make up their own minds on how they think it unfolds. For now, I lean towards the answer being the poem’s reference. The real question is.. [ as you said ‘all types’] LOL How many ‘type’s can there be?
          I mean we have rivers, lakes, Glaciers, clouds, snow-capped mountains, underground water, reservoirs, the Atlantic and Pacific ocean, hot springs, beaver dams, names of places that relate to all of the above, and many other ideas/theories mentioned… do you really think fenn generalized all those and more when answering a question about the clues and what was stated from the book? That’s a tough steak to chew…

          just saying…

          • As I mentioned before, searchers need to learn wwwh to cancel out those many things that you mentioned.

            I’ll gladly eat that steak!! F needs to be vague. Otherwise what would be the point of having the Chase?

            I do have to say F has disclosed the clues although they are vague in the poem along with subtle hints if you can find them in the book.

            Just Say’n

          • Ok you guys can believe what ya like… I still find it interesting that most of the Q&As we talk about were given to fenn by a searcher [ via email ] or by a blog owner, being the middleman, passing on a searcher’s question… which fenn receives many. He picked which Q&A to answer and made public.
            I would hope when answering questions about the poem he would answer the question a presented. In this case ~ “…If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way?”

            Why would the answer need to be vague.. making a general idea of anything water related and not about the clue references? The question was about the poem’s “clues”

            Just to review;
            Q~Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman 
            A~There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f 

            Ya’ll talk about vagueness and the idea of 85% of the truth… lol but say ‘we’re listening Mr. Fenn.’
            Like I said before Aaron. It could be a generalizing. Or it could be about the poem’s clue. Or it could be an idea / suggestion that ‘the many waters’ have a connection.

            Without looking at the WhatIF’s [ like the idea of whatever the Big Picture could mean] all ya have is the same old same old. It doen’t matter what the rabbit hole is, it only matters if you want to make it a permanent home.

          • Regarding Forrest’s answer to Phil, who has gone through the exercise to count how many words in the poem were not useful to you for finding the treasure? For me, I currently count 61 out of 166, which makes me mildly suspicious that I’m missing one or two hints from the latter half of the poem. (I use all by 9 words from the first three stanzas.)

          • Zap,
            How can we eliminate words as, not useful, without any idea of how this all unfolds-?- with any accuracy at all?

            I’m being very serious… folks have mentioned clues, some may have mentioned the first four in the correct order… yet, by fenn’s understanding no one really knew anything. 1/2 the poem, the first primary clue to nail down or stay home, the second clue at the same time as the first while searcher were on site, searcher went by the seven remaining clues..some searcher were near 500′ and other 200′ from the designated spot… yet no one could pull this thing together [ with solved clue’s references and botg]
            LOL do you really want to say 61 words out of 166 won’t help/ are not useful?
            Isn’t that a tad more than a “few,” by any definition of the word?

            But while were on the subject… how many word does your theory take to produce your WWH?

          • Seeker: I was just giving an example of my (current) particular solution. I’m not eliminating words per se — I’m just giving an indication of how many words from the poem didn’t happen to assist my solution. For example, I think you’d agree that “the” isn’t a particularly useful word for treasure-finding, but they’re in there for grammar and cadence. As you know, some searchers eliminate entire stanzas as not being useful, while I use every one.

            “LOL do you really want to say 61 words out of 166 won’t help/ are not useful? Isn’t that a tad more than a “few,” by any definition of the word?”

            Yes, which is why I mentioned being “suspicious” that I might be missing a hint or two. If those hints are redundant, no harm no foul.

            “But while were on the subject… how many word does your theory take to produce your WWH?”

            That depends on whether I count redundant poem hints or not. Minimally, I can do it in 9 words, but I think the redundancy is needed for confidence.

          • Seeker, I’ll try to simplify.

            meet me where warm waters halt

            His answer is more of a geographic reference than a reference to the poem and it’s clues:

            There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe

            To me many places WWWH means any possible variety of WWWH.

            If the statement was instead “Where the pine tree grows’ and F answered well there are many places in the Rocky Mountains where pine trees grow and nearly all are north of Santa Fe. Would you insist he is referring to one type of pine tree?

            Perhaps it is best to just agree to disagree on this one, lol. It is hard though because you keep bringing it up. I just hope you will not bank all of your research into solutions based on this one statement.

          • Hi Aaron: I agree that excluding a specific WWWH by virtue of the fact that something equivalent is not found south of Santa Fe is extremely restrictive. If Forrest’s WWWH is in some way unique (mine certainly is), then by definition it won’t be found south of Santa Fe.

          • Yep Aaron, we’re just chatting. Your idea of a pine tree is a bit off i think… in that sample idea we know what a one tree is… We don’t know what WWH is. My attempt is to see how each possible version of what we have been talking about, can be thought as, being truthful and doesn’t conflict other things we have been told of before.

            For example; when fenn answered a Q&A about the jar seal, he mentioned he was ‘not ready’ to say the chest is not in water… right? My first post on that was; Didn’t he say just that? And many moons later he basically had to confirm that Q&A. Could the same be happening with this Q&A as well?
            It’s easy to dismiss that the poem’s WWH could be involved with a large area, especially if a searchers solve that as has a very specific, stand-a-lone WWH and not found S.of SF.

            In all honesty, do I truly believe it is? I’m not sure, but i’d rather look into it, than simply say… the chest is in water because fenn never stated for a ‘fact’ it wasn’t,.. line of thinking.

            The thing is we have other pieces of information that some grabbed on to and others don’t like..such as.. fenn reportedly said; ~ remember I said the treasure is not associated with a structure ~ when talking about a hoB theory with a searcher.
            For years, conversations about what could or should be consider a clue, gathered around the today shows Quote. Only now it seems anything associated with the treasure is likely not to be a structure involvement, including the clues. At least that is the way I see it. Even though this is not a factual comment that directly links all clues being the same… would you agree the possibility is high? Or would you still debate the possibility fenn only meant the chest hidey spot?

            Most of the time [ at any given time, because we all have changed our thoughts a long the way,] a searcher will still think hoB could be a structure because the clarity idea is a bit fuzzy on this as well. But if we add in the comment ~ wwwh is not a dam. The idea now has legs to stand on… and very possibly means No structures or any man-made things are not involved with any clue.

            It makes perfect sense to me that all the clue’s references are of natural features only, and could stand the test of time for a 1000 plus years. which brings me full circle to the idea WWH may have an involvement on the CD, and may be involved with all the waters of its watershed…. even S.of SF on the CD… only the one location we are looking for is N.of SF. 8.25 miles plus of the area…

            The only true facts we know of, are those confirmed by fenn for one reason or another… all the others seem to imply the same if thinking the same way. I could go on about other things; fenn’s time line to our being able to walk several hour to our solve twice or an d 80 yr old is not going down a canyon and back up and done again. but i think you get the gist. Plain English to many seems to rely of pure fact, rather than plain honesty.

            But it’s always a blast to chat with someone who gives example with their opinion … thanks for that.

          • Seeker, I like that you brought up the comment amount HOB, and the chest not being associated with a structure because it is very similar and relates to the way I feel like I have to view FF’s responses. After Cynthia brought up HoB being associated with a structure he stated that the treasure is not associated with a structure. To me this means that clues could possibly be associated with a structure but the treasure itself cannot be. If anything it means that the treasure itself is associated with HoB.

            If FF doesn’t flat state a fact I do not believe we can infer or assume anything other than the fact he presented. He is very good at avoiding giving away too much. I don’t see why he would give away that his WWWH is the example of most are north of Santa Fe. I could be wrong, but it just doesn’t pass my sniff test.

          • Here’s a ruble….Let’s not forget Steve’s Q( similar to Phil’s) and Fenn’s *what color is the bear* comment. The implications are similar…more info is needed.

          • Zap,
            Fair enough… thanks for the reply.
            LOL I was going to leave it at that… then you add the word redundant.

            I think clues are ‘somewhat’ redundant as in repeated, but not that they are unnecessary.

            My example would be the possibility [ while they are separate clues ] WWH and HLnWH could refer to the same place, thing, reference, only in a different manner for a different reason.
            To explain further; Lets use my idea that this is more an observational solve. IF WWH is the station we observe from, and basically, we see how all the clue align, working back to that viewing station… HLnWH would be “Just” WWH.
            In theory, both ‘clues’ can be of one place, but for different reasons or their correct order to be known, and possibly the idea that HLnWH is a more specific, tighter spot at WWH to be needed for the view point to work properly… following the clues by line of sight.

            Look at it this way… if your standing at the upper falls at YS [ hypothetically the falls would be WWH ] you would see that view, but standing at the lower falls the view changes, yet is the same location.
            The idea is we may need to find which spot in a single place [YS grand canyon in this scenario] that produces the correct affect for the clues to be viewed. So while folks deciphered the first two clues… it’s possible two mistakes could have happened;
            1. not being in the exact ‘position’ at WWW
            2. not realizing this my be more about WWH being the place where the chest lays in wait… than a stomping point to point, and left the poem… metaphorically and literally.

            It also might suggest how folks went by the remaining clues and folks managed to get so close to the chest. So I can see clues as repeating in a manner for their correct order.. for a searcher’s correct stationing… for this type of theory.

          • Hi Aaron: alternative interpretation of the HoB/structures exchange between Cynthia and Forrest. If home of Brown and the treasure chest’s hidey hole are not co-located, then the sensible interpretation of Forrest’s admonition is that none of the clues are associated with a structure. Cynthia wasn’t asking about the treasure chest location — she was specifically mentioning her at-the-time home of Brown which was a CCC cabin. She reported: “he immediately said, ‘don’t you remember, I said it can’t be associated with any structure.'” To reemphasize, Cynthia wasn’t talking about the treasure chest location at all — Forrest’s response was specific to her CCC cabin as HoB.

            From this I see only two possibilities. Either:
            1. Home of Brown is very close to the chest’s location, or
            2. None of the clues are associated with a structure

            Choice #1 is terrible because it would be extremely valuable private information being supplied to Cynthia. Choice #2 is sensible from the standpoint of clue longevity, and Forrest’s disinterest in following the footsteps of others.

          • Zap, I agree with most of what you said. While option 2 seems the most likely, I do believe that FF was vague enough in his reply to Cynthia for it not be that a groundbreaking hint to Cynthia either way. Both options are still viable with the information that we have.

          • Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure, did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits?

            Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more info. f

            Google “structure”:
            N. The arrangement of and relations between parts or elements of something complex.
            V. Construct or arrange according to a plan; give a pattern or organization to.

            We could assume that by definition, the chest is a structure, which the treasure is in. So, we then can assume that f means a building of some type, or really anything that may take a mind to construct, (even though natural constructs could also fall in that category). But since he would know that the chest is of definition, then we could say nothing man-made. Since if he told us where hoB is we would go to the chest, figure that the hoB, whether a clue or not, must be near the chest, so hoB is not: something man-made. The thing to know is how far “about” is? We don’t know, so to say hoB is not a structure could be wrong, if it is not in the “about” distance. To say none of the clues can be structures is ridiculous. F never said it, it shouldn’t be said. We don’t know if “about” is 2″ or 2 miles.
            The statement is vague, the ATF’s on the ‘structure” thing are vague, so best to say, IMO, if you want to say the 9 clues are not associated with a structure. Because really, by definition, everything is a structure. Leaves, trees, forest, whatever.
            IMO, f is just trying to relay that the chest is not near a high traffic area, out in the boonies, in the deep forest, etc…Doesn’t mean that there may not be some kind of bridge or something near the chest. Unless you now have solved what “about” means to f and know the distance.

        • Why can’t “there are many WWWH and most of them are north of SF” be a thermal feature? And why can’t the “big picture” be Mr. Fenn’s life? And why can’t the thermal feature in question be one that’s significant to his life? Just noodling, deducting, analyzing, thinking out load. IMO, JO

          • Jeff O,

            Its good to ask why, but are you learning why? If you don’t learn how can one ever find the correct wwwh? Naming your first clue without learning becomes a crap-shoot or a guess.

  97. Seeker, I like that your theories range from all of the clues in a small area, to all of them in a very large area. Keep plugging away until you find one that makes the most sense.

  98. If we as searchers are to identify where to “begin it” we should understand where Forrest “Began it”. Forrest is promoting the Thrill of the chase. He began his thrill of the chase when he found his first arrowhead and thought about it’s history. How did that arrowhead land exactly where he found it? This is Forrest’s chase. The poem contains every bit of knowledge we should need. This is all about that particular find. We need to find out about that particular arrowhead.
    Seeker, not solid to liquid….. liquid to solid – imo

    • Tim,
      It’s my understanding the arrowhead was found near Temple, TX where he grew up as a kid. But maybe someone more familiar can confirm that. Hope that helps. Jeff

    • Thanks Jenny – If Indulgence is found while Forrest is still alive, I hope that the finder honors any wished that Forrest might have. JDA

      • I have said I felt it would be found on or before 2021. With the current environment in the chase I will say it here that will be found next year. I know this is said most every year but as a new searcher that is my take not hope, not a guess.

          • Twingem and JDA…why do you believe the treasure will be located this year? Just curious…

          • Hi Ken;

            To be honest – I believe it will be found this year because I hope to make at least one more trip his year, and I have confidence in my solve, and I honestly believe that I will find it. Over confident? Maybe, but I have to have confidence, or I might as well get out of the chase – 🙂 JDA

          • Ken — and speaking of that, I noticed Deano Bravo didn’t come back to admit he was wrong about the imminent news of the chest being found by McB/Marcelo “within a week.” That week incidentally expired on September 30th.

            Given how little time remains in the 2018 search season, I am confident the chest will slumber a 9th winter in the Rockies.

          • Ken, Zap….have a little faith, fellas. I’m headed due north into the rain, snow, and freezing temps as we speak. As they say, ” go big or go home (of Brown) haha. I sure do love my expensive vacations and my -10 degree sleeping bag!!!

          • Sandy: you go girl! Please prove me wrong so I can move on to another challenge! 🙂

          • Sandy, while searching in the first snow last year I found that extra pairs of socks are very useful. Good luck!

  99. Just a long-shot thought… Are ’Nails’ the letters in words? Your fingers hammer them out/down on a keyboard.

    Does ‘nailing down’ the first clue, whether it is just WHERE or also WARM WATERS HALT, mean constructing words? Either names or descriptions, but not tracking wordless altitude lines or river paths on a map. The word ‘down’ may have some subtle power as well. OS2

    • That’s a pretty good thought OS2. And not a longshot. He does say hear me and listen good, could mean not only listen to my words but the letters that make up those words. Not only following instruction words but words within words, and letters. He may just be hinting not on wwwh, but on how to solve the poem…As far as wwwh, it’s the “learning” and the ‘find out” part that seems to be the bottleneck.

  100. I have looked at the poem from several sides now…from upside down and still somehow it’s the poems illusions I recall…I really don’t know the poem at all,

  101. I’ve read the above different opinions on how to possibly determine how and where to find WWWH. IMO most are overlooking one important and straightforward idea. After reading the following Q&A I think most are not seeing that Forrest never answered the first question that was asked. He quickly diverts to the second question and gives a somewhat confusing response about words in the poem.

    Q~Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman
    A~There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f

    FACT:
    Forrest has said that there are nine clues in the poem and that WWWH is the first clue, right?
    IMO if WWWH is the first clue then listen to what he wrote, “Hear me all and listen good.” If you are to solve a clue and you know what the clue is (WWWH) then that’s the only information you need. It’s the clue! The answer is found from those four words, WHERE WARM WATERS HALT. Each clue is solvable in and of it’s self one after another, but you must start with the first one then connect the next. So if you want to find WWWH look at those four words and decipher what they mean to Forrest, then marry that to the map. This is what I think he meant when he said it’s straightforward with no subterfuge. JMO.

    • ManOWar,
      I agree that FF didnt answer the first question at all. But I think that proves nothing. I dont think we know with any certainty that the four words WWWH are all that is needed to figure out that one clue. There could be hints in stanza 1 or anywhere else in the poem. However; I do think WWWH can be independently solved. I also think HOB can be independently solved. Byt we can not know if we got it right until we find the TC according to FF.

      • Flutterby, If you are right” but we can not know if we got it right until we find the TC” how can anyone go to get the treasure with Confidence??
        I am only asking because I feel that my solve is 100% all the way thru but I have been there twice and not found the box. Every time when I get home I see another place I didn’t think to check. It seems I have less confidence not more. JMO

    • ManOwar,

      I think the full question was answered; Let me break it down the way I see it…
      Q1 ~Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go?
      A~ You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f

      Q2~If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil
      A~ There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them.

      Does it matter the order of the answers to the order of the questions when all of the “question” was combined and flowed together? The obvious “If they can’t” relates both parts of the overall question presented.

      • “Begin it” was left out in the first question. That’s been my main takeaway from this exchange. I think he should have told us to look up the word few after that question.

  102. if wwwh is the first clue where you start – then wwwh would be the first clue would be the – first clue you run in to – and that would be canyon down the first canyon at the low elevation where you take it in its not far but to far to walk- its my opinion that wwwh and hob are both in the same low elevation that is where you start —- wwwh and hob low elev. then waters high is higher elev. then the blaze – in the wood – then where the chest is is the highest elevation – so start looking at the low elev. then go up (north) its just am opinion

    • Hi frank;

      I am sorry, I have to disagree with you. For me, wwwh is an an elevation – let’s say it is at 6,000′ – And take it in the canyon down (South or lower in elevation – or both) NF,BTFTW (Some distance south and/or lower in elevation.) Even if it IS south, in order to go DOWN a canyon you MUST get lower in elevation. “Put in below the home of Brown – SO, as I see it, hoB MUST be at a lower elevation than WWWH. How can you go DOWN a canyon, and NOT go lower in elevation? Just askin’ for a logical explanation – and IMO you can’t be correct – JDA

      • JDA thanks for talking to me lets see if I can explain what it is that im trying to say – the first clue is at low elevation (wwwh) and hob are south of all the clues they are the beginning where you start at low elevation you do not travel to canyon down – if you start a wwwh you are already at canyon down or at the bottom of the canyon if you are below hob you are at the the bottom of the canyon where wwwh is- to get to hob you go west from wwwh where you go north to the rest of the clues so from santa fe you go to wwwh its not far but to far to walk to wwwh at the bottom of the canyon and put in below they are the same place – you turn left or west to hob from there you turn right to or north to the rest of the clues I hope this helps al this is imo

      • Well frank, I am sorry, I can not follow your logic. You do not answer the question – “How can you go DOWN the canyon and NOT get to a lower elevation.

        You say the first clue is at low elevation (wwwh)
        { let’s call it 6,000′ as an example) you add: “and hob are south of all the clues . Are you daying that wwwh and hoB are at the same place? If you are, what do we do with “And take it in the canyon down, NF,BTFTW? Are you ignoring these two lined?

        You then say: “if you start a wwwh you are already at canyon down or at the bottom of the canyon” Sorry, I do not understand. How can you be at “Canyon down?” Have you found a “Down Canyon?” Are you saying that “Down” has a meaning other than lower in elevation or south?

        I will stop here frank. If it is logical to you – good luck – Hope you find it. JDA

  103. Seeker and Aaron,

    Great discussion up thread. I think the idea of WWWH being linear rather than a specific point has a lot of merit.

    What if, instead of telling someone, “Meet me where the pine trees grow,” (in the Rockies, north of SF), you told them, “Meet me where the pine trees no longer grow” (in the Rockies, north of SF).

    I think that would give someone a couple of “linear features” to consider, the edge of a high desert area without trees, or above the tree line, are two that I think of right off. So to nail