Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixty One

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Please click on the comment balloon below to contribute to the discussion of  Forrest Fenn’s Treasure Hunt. Please note that many topics have their own pages. Please scroll through the blog to see all the discussion pages. There are also stories, scrapbooks, searcher’s reports general information, tips from Forrest, a rumors blog and even email responses from Forrest. So please look around and if you want to make a comment please use the most appropriate page.

Thanks…

 

dal…

617 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixty One

  1. Forrest talks about his secret fishing spots as his and his alone. I often feel like some of my solve components work like that but then I see similar concepts pop on the blog in various topics. I am curious if people feel like it is more a confirmation or possibly just to simple an idea?

    • I think his secret fishing spot is his alone because the water has changed course and is no longer there; no paddle up your creek.

    • Idle Dreamer,
      Forrest talks about his secret fishing spots as his and his alone but a lot of them are not his now. Simple is good IMO.

    • Go Amy- the chest is still there – your efforts will be worth the cold – if you are brave and in the wood – youll get the title to the gold —- frank

    • “Amy sweitzer on July 25, 2018 at 6:21 pm said:
      I think I may chase one more time!!! ”

      LOL!! Never doubted it for a minute, Lady!! You East Texas gals ain’t got no quit in ya……

      Good Luck to Ya…….go git it!

      • Loco, lol how funny, yes I have it in me, 5 years is a long time. I have to try one more idea!!!

      • FMC, I only search a particular area in Colorado I keep going back to it!!!

  2. f has some of the most interesting visitors in his dreams. White Corn Maiden along with those crown dancers. Have they visited everyone else yet? Is this an exclusive club? Nah, it’s just a dream, boy. Go back to sleep.

    • Lots of bizarre dreams of late!

      I don’t remember hearing of Forrest’s White Corn Madien dream?

    • I wonder if Old Man ever visited or if buffalo runners ever joined the slumber party?

    • It’s not exclusive, though the visits probably haven’t reached everyone.

  3. On the just closed Odds n Ends page, Richard L. asked: ” Does anyone know when Forrest stopped piloting his own airplane? Or when he gave up his pilots license? Was he still flying his own plane in 2010? I know he sold it at some point

    Some people have alluded that Forrest flew his plane to a city, rented a car, and drove to hide the treasure. This, more than likely, had to be done alone.

    Or could someone else have flown him?”
    ——————————————————————————————————–
    Richard … FF got rid of his plane in either 2002 or 2003.

    My opinion is that he drove his own car from Santa Fe to the location where he hid the chest. And I don’t believe he drove it as far north as the Yellowstone/Gallatin area.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • this is a mis interpretation of the facts that I’ve seen more than once. Once you are a pilot, you are a pilot for life, (with some caveats) your pilot’s license does not expire. Your ratings do not expire. You must have a medical, which does expire. If ff chose to get a medical, (or he already has one) he could be flying tomorrow. My instructor was 80 years old when I was training.

      (also one must be checked out in the airplane that one plans to fly)

    • Yes Ken. At first, I was looking at the Yellowstone/Gallatin/Cody area. Now I am leaning towards Forrest drove from Santa Fe, to hide the chest. I don’t think he would drive to far by himself.

      • Richard L,

        I had suggested for you to check out Scrapbook #104 because it has a photo of a check when Forrest sold his plane. That date was October 26, 2002 but that check was not good so the guy who bought it had to do a bank transfer.
        I’m not sure what mode of transportation Forrest used to get to the place he hid Indulgence, but he did say the reason for not giving the date I believe was so people would not check car rentals or something close to that. So was a rental use ? I believe so especially for the area surrounding the clue solves. I think he stayed for a few days enjoying all around this place with what it has to offer. As far a Peggy, she is use to Forrest going on his expeditions, most of the times with out her.

        So Robert don’t give up a area that your solves take you to just because you don’t think he drove very far from where he lives. He planned his trip and I’m sure he knew how far it was and what was the best way to get there without questions from anyone.
        Strong solves are strong solves no matter where they are.

        Good luck,
        Bur

          • But,

            I just read the scrapbook 104. Like you said, I’m sure Forrest had this all figured out ahead of time. I do remember his quote about a rental car. If I recall, didn’t someone ask Peggy about this, and she said she could probably narrow it down to about a 2 week period?

            Either way,he would still have to get a 40 pound chest to his location, without anyone noticing it.

            I’m not giving up entirely on my solve. I’m just asking questions, to see how others feel.

          • Richard-Peggy has never said that she could narrow the hiding timeframe down. Forrest said that Peggy didn’t know within such and such a timeframe when he hid the chest. Forrest kept the chest covered in his vault and when he hid it he replaced the chest with a stack of books aprox. the same shape and kept that covered too…No one knew exactly when the chest disappeared.

          • Richard;

            To the best of my knowledge, Peggy has NEVER commented on anything related to the treasure hunt.

            Regarding the rental car, I may be mistaken, but I do not think that Forrest’s comment was restricted to a rental car – I believe that he just said something like (not a quote) I don’t want to narrow it down that much – people might want to look up records.

            Maybe Zap or someone has the quote – JDA

          • JDA: your wish is my command. 🙂 From Moby Dickens Book Shop Signing (11/2/2013):

            “…that’s why I told people I hid the treasure chest when I was 79 or 80 years old because I don’t want the exact date to be known because I’m afraid somebody will go check the rental car records and how many miles did Mr. Fenn put on the truck or the car… so I don’t answer those kinda questions… but shoot that person that sent in that email.”

          • Key phrase is without anyone noticing it. And it’s not in close proximity to a human trail.

        • I recall reading somewhere too that Peggy could narrow it down to within 2 weeks. Seems like it was in an article somewhere, but I couldn’t even begin to remember which one – I don’t think it much matters, personally.

          • I don’t really think it does matter (which I said) and certainly doesn’t matter from any sort of concrete reasoning perspective.

            That said, I think that it’s not a shorter period is interesting in that it doesn’t narrow us down to NM or shorter drives from NM. Obviously, it doesn’t mean that it’s more North, either so again… marginal.

            I also think that to narrow it to 2 weeks probably has some kind of anchoring event (i.e. I doubt given the story about the book replacement “chest” that she saw the chest and then 2 weeks later FF told her he’d done it and showed her the books). Whether this is a time she was off doing something, an extended 2 week trip by FF where he went all over, or some other event (or me reading it completely wrong), I think there’s the tiniest bit of sway to outside of NM using this logic. Again, it could be wrong, but that’s the way I see it being potentially/minimally useful.

          • FMC…I was just adding to the thread…not meant as a comment to you. No worries…

    • Ken, it may be possible that his grandson flew him. I’m not really sure when Shiloh got his pilots license though.

  4. If he owned the land he could have made arrangements for the trees to be clear prior to his botg. If that was the last time the road was cleared and traveled. The treasure may not be buried, but the road most likely is.

    • Thank you for the link, Dal. Nice to see Cynthia enjoyed the same experience as Mr. Fenn. The bathing hole my family and I tried to go to (Boiling River) was closed. Not sure if it was due to the water temperature being quite high or if it was due to the river being higher than usual at this particular time.

    • I always enjoy her write-ups and pictures. Though, frankly, she let a small cluster of riverside reeds ruin what would have otherwise been a fantastic shot in this particular blog post.

    • Be safe!
      I hoped you enjoyed the Chase! Take care.
      Keep us updated
      CC

    • TimM
      If you know where to go and what to look for, you don’t have to go far for little adventures.

      • I’m trying to get home so I can take my granddaughter camping for the weekend. She loves playing at the beach there.

          • Aaron,
            I live on the north coast… close to the shores of Lake Erie. The campground that we go to has a lake of it’s own with a beach. That’s the one I was referring to.

            TimM

          • Hi TimM: was just at Catawba Island a few weeks ago — possibly not far from you.

          • Hi TimM: some beautiful houses along that northwest shoreline. Stayed at the Catawba Island Club (attending an uncle’s big birthday party).

    • A couple weeks at home and you’ll be ready to go again. Our “short cut” was 23 hours in the saddle and i’m already planning another boondoggle. The beauty of it all is addictive, fer sure.

      Ya’ll be safe!
      🙂

      • Smoky,

        You’re probably right… my wife would probably chase me around with the rolling pin if I said I was going again this year!! Hmmm… maybe I should take her along.

        TimM

          • Hahaha!!! I’ve tried to get her interested and she tries to follow along with my ideas but she just can’t wrap her mind around it.

            She’d know I was messing with her if I told her that… then I’d be in more trouble!!

            TimM

  5. he made his own trail to hide the chest,so by now the trail is grown over.somewhere in the rocky mountains north of santa fe.the treasure can be anywhere,all over the rocky mountains.divided in sections.he always talked about being in the middle,maybe middle rockies.he said a good time to look was june,june was his sisters name.mercy,this is hard.memoir,stories of his life and family.yet he hides a treasure box and puts a poem about it in a book.why did he do it that way.alot to think about,how much more do i have to go,goodness,mr. forrest ,your memories are in your mind and the feelings in your heart.and for your family to remember what it was like for you growing up.wow.I have my own memories in my mind,but mine are not exciting at all.your stories are fantastic.a story book and tales of forrest fenn.

  6. Carryover from previous

    Dawiser said

    I like that this guy (the author) says that Forrest ” hid a MULTI. MILLION. DOLLAR. FORTUNE. in New Mexico. ” That’s cute.

    DW – please understand that for at least 2 years reporters said it was hidden in New Mexico and he never corrected them. He never said anything about the Rocky Mountains. All he said was in the mountains north of Santa Fe.

    • Lug –

      That is interesting. I hadn’t put that together. So at some point he widened the search area? That seems to be a little contrary to his normal MO. That seems pretty relevant to me. I wonder if it was an oversight that he he didn’t see fit to correct or if he expanded the search parameters inadvertently.

      I need to look more into this. Hmmmmm

      Thanks Lug

  7. OK—-so today it has been officially two years since I began the search for Forrest Fenn’s Treasure. Two years! They have gone by fast. Unfortunately I have wasted a lot of time, and have not really been diligent about the search. I have seen a few things, and believe I know a few of the “hints”, but can truly say that I am still as confused as ever. lol

    About a month after I began the search I was visited by a ghost—the ghost of Billy Barty, who informed me that the Treasure was in Wyoming. Although he has been helpful in some ways, I feel he is being misleading on purpose, and has failed to deliver the goods he promised. Sorry Billy. I haven’t spoken with him in several months anyway.

    But this morning I decided to give all of this one more go. So I got up extremely early, and re-read all of my notes. I then opened a drawer, and then a little box, and retrieved a Green Peridot I have shaped like an arrowhead. As I held it in my hands I said the following words:

    “Oh beloved ghost of M.C. Escher,
    Please help me find the hidden treasure.
    Your artwork has inspired me so,
    Oh please point out where I should go.”

    (I realize the poem is pretty bad, but I hoped M.C. would get the point)

    About an hour later I heard the sound of blowing wind, and a whisper:
    “Southwest Montana”.

    I really wish he had been more specific—-perhaps later he will be. But at least I know now that Billy Barty was pulling me leg, and I’ve been searching the wrong state the whole time.

    So—-I will begin again. And I think with Mr. Escher’s ghost as a guide it may not be too long before I am successful.

    **For those of you who are prone to think “this person must be mentally ill” my psychologist, Nathan Ambrose may agree with you. I am not sure because he never lets me read his notes. He just shakes his head a lot and giggles when I share with him. He is a very good doctor though, I would recommend him to you.

    • Sparrow,
      I’m jealous, you have the ghosts of Billy Barty and MC Escher helping out. I only have my own delusions. If I don’t get at least some B-grade spectre to ally with me in my dreams tonight I’m going to give up the chase. No sense in wasting my time when I’m only getting static from the spirit realm while others are getting strong signals. All I got going for me is the implant the aliens stuck in me during the abduction, and that hasn’t been enough.

      • JW–

        I checked with Billy and M.C. she at this time there are very few ghosts available. There is the ghost of “Mom’s Mabley”(not sure if I spelled that right), who is very interested in the treasure. You could give her a try. Alien implants won’t help find the Treasure unfortunately, but it’s really cool that you have one.
        All the best to you!

      • PDenver—-
        He’s in the 1-800 Yellow Pages. Nathan Ambrose. You’ll find him under the “D’s” as his last name used to be Drackmeyer. When you do call ask for Dr. Ziggy Plutarch. Hope he is as much a help to you as he is to me.

        • Thank you, Sparrow. I’ll be sure to give him a call and put you down as a character reference. 🙂

    • Sparrow: you definitely traded up from Barty to Escher. Oooh, whoops, sounds too much like a short joke. Besides, with Escher, up is down and down is up.

    • GCG – it does say published online today, but seemed like that story had been discussed prior (my memory may be off)…I definitely know Cynthia talked about her part of the interview and how the guy was focused on the deaths and that had made her wary. Sure doesn’t seem like it has much in the way of new info…first I’d heard of his ‘legendary’ parties, his stories always seemed like they were other’s parties not his own. It did remind me that I am always curious about the long times of FFs life that just don’t get much attention…2 pop out for me…first…FF graduated high school in 1947, went to A&M for a month…and then joined the AF in 1950…what the heck was he doing those 2-3 years? Did he spend time in West? Next, and this article fills in some blanks (but I don’t trust the reporter), the time between Cancer diagnosis 1988, recovery in 1993 and the actual hiding (2009/10)…we know he sold the gallery in 1988, and bought San Lazaro…my curiosity (not search related per se) is if he was ‘bed ridden’ during recovery (as the article claims), was he working at SL? when did he stop working at SL? I am just curious if he was still collecting items for the chest during the SL times, or what? It seems he basically ‘retired’ early in 1988 (58 yrs old), so was he still collecting things those following years, seems he was spending his hard earned money? I know he acquired the Fenn Clovis Cache in 1988, published several books, etc. It is just interesting that he was ‘working’ on the poem during these years, but given all his other pursuits, it was sporadic at best…can anyone point to a good interview where some of these periods of his life come up? Basically, want to hear how FF tells it…88-93-09/10 is a heck of a lot of time and seems his hobbies filled some time…but ALL of it? I could see a lot of fishing trips in there, maybe more time at his special spot…over here playing Canasta.

      • TBUG

        And the old quote about I hid the chest 15 years after I was diagnosed makes more sense now. He must have meant 15 years after being given the all clear.

        • That just turned on a light bulb for me too! Now I can sleep. (If only, I’m at work.)

        • Yeah it does make some sense…if true, the reporter certainly took some liberties. Also, I enjoyed FF saying that someone has been close ‘recently’, despite it sounding exactly like the quote from 2013…at any rate, still curious what he was doing during his post high school days before the AF…and then again when going through C treatment and San Lazaro…man got way down that rabbit hole…SL has lots of material from FF…his name is cast wide and far in association

          • How much credence do people give that “recently within 200 feet” part of the article? Because just like Tbug said, it reads exactly like the years-old comments.

          • Hi FMC: the Wired interview with Forrest was I believe in April (which is fairly early in the search season). So the question is are we talking “recently” as in days or weeks, or more like months (i.e. 2017)? To me it reads like the former, but without the full context it could be either. I can tell you it wasn’t me for either timeframe.

          • was curious how you found it about someone being close recently. does ff reply to some one or post on website. am new to this search and really don’t hardly anything.

          • FMC,
            Since history tends to repeat itself it seems likely that another person made it to within 200′. Then probably made the same mistake or “left the poem” exactly like previous searchers did.

          • FMC ~ ‘How much credence do people give that “recently within 200 feet” part of the article? Because just like Tbug said, it reads exactly like the years-old comments.’

            The interview reads like a history of comments/ATF’s mixed in with what the story line was really about; deaths that have occurred.
            IMO the interviewer had brought old info in to a new interview as a misrepresentation of the time line many of the comments were first stated.

            However, That is not to say more recent searcher have been near the 200′ mark.
            fenn has said some have up to the first for clues [ yet is uncertain if they know ]
            So, searchers are still [apparently] getting to the location and being close.

            The other thing to keep in mind is; fenn has repeated many earlier comments in newer interview over the 8 years of the challenge… so an interviewer who might not be up to date or know the history of those comments could easily say ‘their’ interview has new/newer/recent information, when it might be nothing more than fenn repeating older statements.

            This is why I like audio and video interview … a searcher or reporter works off notes and memory or [ in an interviewer / reporter’s mind ] changes words for the article to be dramatic or more interesting to their readers….
            Searchers over the years have done almost the same… they get an e-mail from fenn and “think” is says one thing, get on a blog and tell all what they think was said; only later to post the e-mail and most see it’s nothing like what the searcher hoped it meant.

            Take it all with a grain of salt.. or run a muck with it, if ya like. I personally would weight in as much information that we have to date before jumping to a conclusion… LOL we’re still debating about many comments [ some 4 and 5 years old ] with very little consensuses of what fenn may have actually meant.

            One example; If you knew what hoB is you’d go right to the chest.
            Is that an accurate statement to mean hoB is key or where the chest is [ as some would like it to mean ]? Does it mean that if you get to hoB we should be able to figure out the rest easily[ as others think]? Could it be that fenn was blowing off the reported who asked ‘about’ a clue [ any clue ]-?- and may have answered the same way for any clue inquiry?

            IMO, hoping that a reporter or even a searcher is dead on in any recalling of a comment from fenn [ without audio ] needs to be scrutinized by using other more ‘known’ past comments, before one can make a ‘reasonable judgement’ call.

            Well, unless it works perfectly with your personal solve… then run, don’t walk, and go get the 5 million doller trove.
            It is 5 mil. now… right?
            Ah lets make it more interesting and say its 10 million…. that sells magazines.

          • head over to Thor and see the newest update on that one…the *recently* comment.

          • JDA,

            The word [cute] means winsome, adorable… so if we twist it a bit… it works for me.

          • Hi Ken: surprised Kpro’s query to Forrest didn’t warrant at least a little bump here:

            Kpro: “Forrest, latest article says the 200 foot person was a recent searcher. Care to clarify?”

            FF: “Not a recent searcher. f”

            The interview for that article occurred in April. There are a number of ways to twist Forrest’s reply, but the simplest reading is that no searcher to his knowledge had “recently” been within 200 feet of the chest as of April 2018. But “recently” could means days, weeks or even months. Or perhaps Forrest defines a “recent searcher” as a newbie vs. a veteran. My guess is that at the time of the interview, Forrest was not aware of anyone who had been within 200 feet of the treasure in 2018.

      • Recent hunter, not “searcher”.

        Recall Forrest just corrected Toby’s misqoutes from A Gypsys Kiss “Why (it) May Never be Found”

    • What’s the over/under on number of insipid youtube videos from wannabes who simply can’t find TC but think folks want to hear them spew their puke about another article about f?

  8. In a recent article about FF The one useful bit of information is that Forrest Fenn does NOT OWN A GPS. So, all of the searchers trying to find GPS numbers in the book or the poem may stop now.

      • So quick to try and rule out coordinates. No GPS, but does own a computer. Google Earth…The thing is, he doesn’t look at specifics of coordinates. While just one tenth of a second could lead off track, f seems to just compare the spot to coordinates.

        Forrest Fenn on February 18, 2016 at 2:02 pm said:
        Spoon, “If person had the correct GPS coordinates they could find the chest.” Physics says this has to be true. How can it not be? The key word here is “correct.”

        I don’t need a GPS, I could look at Google Earth and figure what I have to do. Especially if we get down to distances in feet. There is a reason he picked the exact spot, that reason could be a number of things, because just 2 feet away would be considered the same spot, but maybe the coordinates, and only the exact coordinates yield hints within themselves. Something that could be cross-referenced to something in the poem. Plus, coordinates are the great ‘back-up” to anything that may change.
        To find the coordinates means you must first find the numbers, and many don’t see that as a means to solving the poem, but sooner or later, they will need to rely on a number. A distance, steps to take, time, dates, whatever, there must be a number. If you don’t think so, good luck, with the RM’s moving, things being destroyed, moved, traffic, it would be impossible to go from one point to the other. The chest would never be found, unless tripped over in some distant future. If trees are torn down, or the landscape changed within 1000 years, how would those future searchers come close to finding the chest? Might be tougher for them, but they have the same chance. Since everything moves, except coordinates, it seems logical that coordinates are involved. especially if they are signed, FF.

      • That article is terrible and flawed. I wonder why they never mention that Eric was not searching (he was partying with strangers) the day before he intended to search.

    • There’s a bookstore interview from 2013 where he mentions having “GPS . . . and maps” while flying his ‘plane around.

      Jake

    • JAK: correct. “I used to tell a story in my Too Far to Walk book about in Santa Fe I had a Piper Malibu Barrage. Carried lots of fuel. It had a 43-foot wingspan. And I could go out there all by myself, push the hangar doors open (because I didn’t want anyone to help me), crank that airplane up, get permission from the tower to take off, and head north, and then turn my radio off. I had no idea where I was going to land, what I was going to see, I didn’t even care. I had six or seven hundred miles before I had to think about that. But I had GPS and I had maps. I’d find a little town up in Wyoming or Idaho or someplace in Montana, and look on my map and see if they had a rental car or an airport….”

      • Since FF did not say that he used ANY equipment to determine the GPS of the hiding spot, there is no reason to believe that he hid the GPS in the poem or book. Did he use his planes GPS at the hiding spot when he drove a sedan to the area? IMO it is doubtful.

        • I agree with this…
          “Life should be an illustrated search for hidden treasures, and not just a guided tour. f”

        • Oh, I’m with you completely there, Michael – I can’t imagine any part of the poem was designed to reveal GPS coordinates. Or latitude/longitude coordinates either.

          But not because ff isn’t aware of GPS. Several times he’s recommended searchers take one with for safety purposes.

          I don’t myself – I’ve seen a few nice special places ruined when GPS and social media combined to make it way too easy for folks to selfie their way through some bucket list or other of “secret lost wonders.”

          I’ve actually thought about finally getting a GPS, a drone, and a handgun, and then using the handgun to smash the GPS and the drone to bits.

          Jake

      • Hi Michael: Forrest probably knew his spot before GPS even existed. Even if the treasure chest site was chosen in the GPS-era, it almost certainly wasn’t selected because of its specific latitude and longitude. Nobody needs a GPS to know how to find their home … or their favorite fishing spot.

        But just because Forrest doesn’t need a GPS to get to his spot doesn’t mean he couldn’t have a little fun hiding coordinates in his poem (or elsewhere). Forrest owning or not owning a handheld GPS tells you nothing about whether he’d choose to include coordinates as hints or clues. You don’t need a GPS unit to determine the coordinates of a spot. A map or Google Earth will do that for you.

        The strongest argument against the *necessity* for a searcher to use a GPS unit in the field to find the treasure is the same argument against the necessity of a metal detector: “Technology is not going to help you find that treasure.”

        • Besides the “Technology is not going to help you find that treasure.” comment, the reporter states that Fenn said “There is no reason for anyone to use the internet or social media when going to search for the treasure,”.

          Looking up GPS coordinates on a paper map is not exactly a simple feat. Who knows if he hid coordinates somewhere but highly doubtful it would have to do with solving the poem to find the treasure as he intended.

        • Hi Aaron: not saying that Forrest did this, but he could have supplied coordinates that work much like hints — unusable on their own, but perhaps helpful for validation of correct clue solutions.

          For instance, he could provide insufficient precision (e.g. integer degrees portion only) or only partial coordinates (latitude without the longitude or vice versa). That way, the data would be pretty useless for solving a clue, but could provide some confirmation for the searcher who solves a clue by the intended approach.

          • I agree, that is possible. There is no telling how many random things that FF has thrown out there that could act as hints.

          • Zap!!!, for the second time in the chase, I agree with you. I bet there is a pig flying overhead right at this moment. Hell has just frozen for a split second. One of these days, you will say, “you will find the end spot before the start spot”. Mark it – 07/26/2018. The coordinates hold a hint, or several hints. (also back up what could be destroyed).:)
            Just need to find the, FF, now. Dang 6th letter of the alphabet. In ’97…

          • Sorry, charlie, but this prediction isn’t going to come to pass:

            “One of these days, you will say, “you will find the end spot before the start spot”.

            That’s just not possible. WWWH comes first. Without it, a searcher has ZERO. Forrest isn’t stupid enough to hide the precise coordinates of the end point in the poem — it would completely undercut all the work of providing 9 consecutive clues. There are no short cuts.

          • And Zap, I agree again. F would not give the end coordinates. IMO, he gives coordinates to clue 8. It just so happens that the coordinates are at clue 8, still clue 9 and the key to contend with, IMO. Besides, his ATF comment may just answer that question:
            “Yeah, I have some advice. Read the book. And then study the poem. Over and over. Read it over and over. Maybe even memorize it. And then go back and read the book again looking for hints that are in the book that are going to help you with the clues that are in the poem. That’s the best advice that I can give. You have to find out- you have to learn where the first clue is. They get progressively easier after you discover where the first clue is.”

            He never says you need to solve for the first clue, he says you need to learn where it is. To discover it. You do that by finding “out”.
            Of course, there will be some that say ohhh he just tripped up, means nothing. Whatever, it is what it is, and it’s pretty strong for those knowing they will find the end before the beginning. It’s why it’s ridiculous to look for later clues before earlier ones. The end will yield the beginning, which will start your path in which clues will be discovered. Some clues are in the poem to be solved, some clues found on your path to the chest, referenced by lines in the poem. But only the last clue is really important. That’s the one to solve to find the chest, IMO.
            So, no shortcuts, then how did he go down a canyon, back up a canyon, then down again in the same day? I only ask because I believe you are in the two trips one day camp. He was asked since he was familiar with the area if he skipped some clues, answered with no shortcuts, clues must be followed. If that is the case, then he is walking from the get go. If he’s to not skip any clues, must be walking, because to drive to say the third clue would mean that the second trip, he took a shortcut. He wouldn’t need clues 1 and 2. So, since he is walking, how did he go down, up, down again in the same day, without skipping clues and taking no shortcuts?
            He took two trips from his car to the spot and was done in one….
            Just because he puts afternoon next, everyone takes it for granted that he did both trips then, instead of thinking he was done in one trip, the second, in the afternoon.
            He may have done both trips in the afternoon, maybe not. just don’t see him walking down, up, down again the same day. If you could clear these thoughts up, and show how he could with the ATF’s, then I may not be so skeptical. And I know what they say, I know what the popular thought is, and I see the possibilities, they just don’t all fit together. Especially when you add in that he hid the chest 15 years after he “got” cancer.
            I don’t know, but does he ever say in the “same” afternoon? ” I took two trips in the same afternoon”. That would do it for me. You don’t find it funny that he has never said it in this way? Not even tripped up? He’s even tripped up and said it was buried, but never lets us know the same afternoon…

          • Charlie: for me, it’s all unambiguously straightforward. He drove to the put-in below hoB, and parked. He walked the rest of the way, hid the treasure (or chest, I forget which was first), walked back to his sedan, grabbed the remainder from the trunk, walked back to the hiding place, consolidated the goodies, and chuckled his way back to the car.

            One of Seeker’s (and perhaps your) objections is that it would mean he didn’t follow all the clues on that second trip. I counter: so what? He had to follow ALL the clues once; the only reason he didn’t follow them twice is that the chest was too heavy to do it all at once.

          • Charlie….are you implying that Fenn has intentionally prevaricated when specifically asked if he hid the treasure on the “same day/date”?
            I personally do not believe it truly matters…but it is interesting that folks do not believe him.

          • Zap and Ken, sorry so long to get back to you on this post.

            Zap, you would be right, that’s exactly how I feel. But if you can justify taking shortcuts on second trip, that’s good with me. I just interpret different, that’s all. But if he could drive to a spot so close, anyone could, just saying. It would cover all the ATF’s except no shortcuts. But, if you have him walking the clues, then you have to say it was done on different days. So either way, there is a potential problem with interpretation. What else is new…I just have to say again, I just don’t see an early riser like Fenn, starting this whole thing in the afternoon, (12:00p.m.). It would make no sense. To me, 9:00a.m. the latest. He probably couldn’t wait to get started. But, we don’t know so I guess anything is possible. But a guy, waking up around 8:00a.m. every day for 65 or so years is now going to start the most crazy thing in his life at 12:00p.m., hard sell…

            Ken, no, I don’t question when the trips took place. Either different days or not, I just keep each thought as possible. Either way, the second trip to me was done on his birthday. At least that’s what I think, probably wrong, but it’s the only day where he was 79 or 80. He did say he was 79 or 80, depending on the exact time he was born, if in the afternoon, then he may have hid slightly before actually turning 80, or slightly after. So 79 or 80. When he walked back to his car, he was 80. (At least that’s what I think).

            Not a big hint unless you’re one of his family members and know for sure if he was around on his b-day. If not, then they might know where he was going, and that would be a big clue for them. Which, would be unfair, when he was trying to be fair all around. Maybe Dal could ask one of his family members…

  9. tighterfocus,
    On the previous Odds-n-ends page, you asked, “are we now expected to believe that “I” in the poem refers to . . .” Obviously you haven’t been following my postings very closely because I have believed “I” to be water from the first time I read the book TTOTC. My thoughts on this idea have not changed in the several years I’ve been at this chase.

    p 62 TTOTC
    “We decided to follow a fast-running stream that seemed to have an anxious purpose of some sort. At least we could have water and surely it would lead us to a road or a Forest Service man-trail somewhere. Gradually, the little stream got narrower and narrower and deeper and deeper until it develped vertical sides that nothing could get through but water” There is actually more than one hint in this statement, but I’m going to talk more about water.

    As mentioned in other postings by me, I believe that words that sound alike are fair game. “Hear me all” and “Listen good” tell me that the sound of the words rather than the spelling of them is what is important. So words that sound alike but have different meanings are fair game.

    I have firmly believed that “I” is water from that first read through TTOTC. There are so many other hints in TTOTC that support that idea. But, the hints are subtle.

    Just this week I’ve been reviewing my definitions of all words in the poem. I came across a definition of that seems to support my belief that “I” is water. So if a subtle hint isn’t convincing enough, then backing up that hint with an actual definition of a word that sounds like “I” but has different meanings should be further proof.

    The word “AYE” sounds like “I” but has different meanings. I learned that aye=vital force, life; long life, eternity” (source also of Greek aion “age, eternity,” Latin aevum “space of time”. That sure fits with what I’ve believed about the correct solution all along. I believe “too far to walk” is talking about a distance in time represented in the geography. At the end of TTOTC, FF talks about coming together at the great banquet table of life “where there will be no past”. And, “life force” certainly can mean water. Nothing can survive without water! So I believe that this definition is 100% in support of my original idea and it really adds to my theory. Add to the definition of aye, the definition of “eye”. It can mean an apperature or hole. How many times have we heard FF refer to a hole? Many!

    It is my opinion that WATER = Vital Force. All the world requires water. The word aye has so many other meanings that fit specifically with statements from FF. He has talked about the chest being “for the ages”. He has talked about holes=apperatures. Then there is “eye” which clearly helps us to have a tighterfocus and ties to FF’s mother having “nature’s long-sightedness”

    In addition to my thoughts on water, I have believed that “no paddle up your creek” refers to the jet stream or something in nature that represents it. Wind River Mtns are one possibility amoung many, where no paddle will get you up the creek, in fact it blows you in the opposite direction. So I’m intrigued by this definition of eye=Nautical in the wind’s eye “in the direction of the wind” is from 1560s.

    HOB IMO is also tied into “I”. If “I” is water, and the HOB is something representing the sun, then that defines the water cycle. The sun is the driving force behind the water cycle. It controls the wind as well. In my opinion, this entire poem is talking about the water cycle in great detail.

    So where do warm waters halt? I think I know. Still working on details of the solve. But, also consider that “where warm waters halt” can be used with a word that sounds alike but has different meaning. Suppose you read it as “wear warm waters halt” meaning that we are looking for wear that is halted by warm waters. Well, that would tie in with the sun. Because while the sun drives the water cycle, it is the water that cools parts of the earth enough that it prevents the entire earth from being toasted by the sun. The water halts the wear from the sun just as the sun drives the water cycle.

    Lots to think about here. I’ll leave you to it. Do I expect you to believe that “I” represents water. Not really. I know others believe it and it is what I believe. “To Caliph I am dirt, but to dirt I am a Caliph”. It is the perspective on the poem that will eventually solve it. If you don’t know who or what “I” is, then the poem will never make sense IMO.

      • The ones I get at Dunkin’s are about an inch in diameter, drenched with liquid sugar and melt in my mouth (though the chocolate ones require some chewing). Empty calories, sure, but no astrophysicist would suggest they constitute empty ‘space’.

        • Good point, Pinatubocharlie. My thoughts went immediately to an open space when considering, “How deep is a hole?”

      • Pdenver,
        A hole is an empty space, or a asterisk in a book that was never written. Or it can be looking at the whole picture.

          • pdenver,
            I believe “It” is the water cycle or the path left behind by the water cycle.

            Since I already believe “I” is water, it was an obvious guess that “it” is the water cycle or the path the cycle leaves behind to “show where its been”. But I think the words in the poem actually tell us that we are looking at the water cycle. Let me explain.

            The word “aye” sounds like “I” but has different meanings. I learned that aye=vital force, life; long life, eternity” (source also of Greek aion “age, eternity,” Latin aevum “space of time”.  It also means always or ever.

            Water is certainly a life force. Nothing can survive without water. So I believe that this definition is 100% in support of my original idea and it really adds to my theory.

            FF has talked about “remnants of history”. They are everywhere in the RMs. But, the only thing that gets recycled through all of history (as far as I know) is water. Water goes through a cycle. It falls as preciptiation. It fills lakes and streams, and aqueducts. It gets evaporated back into the air to cycle again.

            Lets look at another line in the poem
            “end is ever drawing nigh”
            When I think of something which has an end that is ever drawing night, I think of a circle. A circle can also be a cycle. If the word “aye” can mean a life force as well as ever or always, then understanding that word could make some sense out of “ever drawing nigh”. “Aye” which sounds like “I” can mean water because water is a vital force. So if ever is a definition of “aye” then it also can mean “vital force” as well as always or forever. The word drawing can also be associated with water.

            I think “end is ever drawing nigh” is telling us that the cycle of water is always there. In fact, it is the only thing that I know of that has “gone alone in there” through all periods of time.

            IMO

  10. I see so many great deas on here! Thinking outside the box! Hopefully someone can come up with the solution sooner than later! Great ideas! Let’s get ‘er done folks….

  11. I Think what we should know is the Poem is FF rules. Maybe some words are not helpful
    but don’t discount any. It will get you there. Not me I would not go 2500 miles on a
    guess. I have read some very good early searches. Summer is half over.
    I have a question for those who do BOTG and like searching. How stupid is this
    solve I can’t stop questioning it myself. But leave me out as I will not be searching
    anywhere or need nothing. OK. I am sure this area has been searched to death.
    If start at Madison junction down Madison canyon just over seven mile bridge on
    right is the put in below the home of brown but it is across the river from there.
    The river ends on the left just before the bridge where you park the car.
    Walk down the bank genesis trail to just across from the put in over the bridge.
    Turn away from the river look up the bank 500′ left or right up 200′ into woods
    20-30 feet or so. Remember TSWMG. just back over to home of brown you can
    look across the river to where it is. And the NPFTM is the direction/ or cross the river.
    So. you don’t need to paddle back up the river to the bridge. not creek. Its FF rules.
    Heavy loads need bridge to cross. High water need bridge to cross. A blaze is a trail.
    A bridge is a Blaze. So HLAWH and the Blaze is seven mile bridge. I Thought I have
    done it tired and now I am weak. He has slept there. He sleeps because he is tired and now its because he is old and weak. I thought he rode his bike there to catch dinner
    and the family may have been able to get permission to camp there trying to load up on fish for some reason. Me in the middle again. I wondered if the water temp in that area had
    fish hanging out in that area. where any warm water influence ended. Also in pre winter
    the steam rising on the fire holes hot springs look like Indian camps. For a final resting
    place. not bad. He felt the place was his alone. Maybe where there camp fire was.
    I know the park was closed at dark. But if you knew the ranger. And he says its hidden
    some how. Well how stupid is that. I know creek not river but this is FF rules. And if
    you understand the poem you understand it. I really have no idea. And it is pretty
    lame. So please tell me how wrong is that idea. I know there is better solves out there.

    Thank…Mark.

    • markt- slight correction, if I may. you write- “A blaze is a trail”.

      no it is not a blaze is a trailMARKER.

      hope this helps.

      • Hey dodo bird. Thanks for reply. I wasn’t sure I would get one. But this is a great site. I had thought like blazing a trail to follow. How the road was started. As the road is the blaze. and the bridge is part of the road. Or the part you need. If you went over it the river is on your
        right now. I really don’t even know where WWWH. I was going with the Madison junction thing and canyon down and not right past the next ones. Who knows what FF means. Odd statement about a
        paddle. you don’t need a paddle in a creek. Sounds like you are
        paddling up current. which you don’t do in a creek. I kept thinking that
        it is a possible solve. an odd one anyway. nothing more than a guess.
        I decided I would not search only if I knew where it was. Of course
        FF won’t tell me. I thought I might get it handed to me with that one.
        This is the only site I would even bother to post on.
        What is WWWH. and some south of Santa Fe. Mountain- hot spring-
        cold water. No subterfuge no messing with the poem.
        Been looking at it for a few years and nothing.
        Thanks Mark..

    • Mark T.,
      I believe the words in the poem mean exactly what they say. FF has told us that is true.

  12. I made it home safe and sound. My old truck logged 3118 new miles… next time I’ll fly or take my wife’s car. It’s easier on gas and more comfortable. If she let’s me go again, that is…

    TimM

    • Glad you are home safe TimM – Hope you had a great time, even if you come home empty handed – sure that you are not “Empty-hearted” – JDA

      • You’re right JDA. It’s good for this old man to get out in the mountains… it’s been far too long! It was nice breathing that fresh air… and I had forgotten how good it smells when it rains.

    • TimM…for what it’s worth, nice try! My truck made it home for the last time as well but I’m not going back. It’s been fun 🙂 I need to get back to work and replace some of that hard earned cash I wisely spent on the chase! So much fun and so many great memories from the old grumpy one! Enjoy the chase everyone! Someone’s going to find it because I can see nothing but great ideas coming from this site. Lugnutz…go get ‘er done! Y’all are killing it! I had a ton of fun grinding it out…stay safe!

      Deano Bravo

      • Glad you are home safe Deano Bravo – Hope you stick around on the blog even if you say you are not going out again- JDA

        • No regrets JDA…I’m sure I’ll hear about it on the nightly news when someone does find it. The big truck needs to get rolling and replenish my bank account! It’s been fun! Y’all are on the right track with some great ideas from what I can see. I’m pooped…

      • Thanks Deano.

        I can’t say this was my last trip just because I feel it in my gut. I will say that this chase has certainly caused sleepless nights.

        Earn some cash, regroup and get back out there!!

        TimM

    • Aaron,

      Surprisingly enough, I’ve lived here all my life and have never fished Lake Erie. I’m more of an inland lake and river kind of guy.

      TimM

      • Nice, I usually am as well. My grandparents lived in upstate NY and I experienced my first river fishing there. Now I get fly fishing in while searching for the treasure and enjoy that even more.

  13. I’m not sure if I have a weird misprint in my book, TTOTC, but could anyone confirm something for me? On page 4 (preface), near the bottom, there are two tiny yellow dots near the bottom left hand of the page. About 1/8″ directly in front of “This book is my ninth” and just above that, about 3/4″ left of “few of my life experiences.” From what I can tell, this is the only place they exist. They seriously look like really tiny little yellow stars, I’ve tried scraping them off with my fingernail, but it looks like they “belong” there. And it was like that immediately after I tore off the shrink-wrap, (and not after I ate an egg sandwhich….) Is this just some weird mistake from the printer/binder, or does anyone else have these?

  14. “People have been within 500’ of the treasure” and “Searchers have been within 200 feet”. From the Cheat Sheet above.

    The word that has been used twice is “within”. Does this mean no greater than or is it any number of within those feet. Within 200 feet could be 1 foot up to 200 ft, which is it?

    • CharlieM … I have always interpreted those statements to mean “no closer than”. So that people/searchers have been no closer than 500 feet, and have been no closer than 200 feet. I assume those distances are measured horizontally, though FF could also have meant vertical.

      Ken (in Texas)

  15. Maybe our interpretation of “What took me so long!” could be ……What took me?…..soooo long! 🙂
    IMO

    • And… MW question/answer could be another nod to > I wish I had lived to do the things I was attributed to. Just thinking out loud.

  16. Dal!
    I think its time for the Boots on the Ground Photo contest?
    put mine up first, its the best. I’m sure to win.
    please please pretty please.

    • dodo bird,

      I have been reading a lot of your posts and it always seems as though according to what I have read that almost everyone is wrong and you are right. And with the post above you seem to think your the best.

      My question to you is, why is it?

      I’m just trying to figure you out and not beating up on you. Also why haven’t you figured out the poem with a good solution to retrieve the treasure, or why you haven’t been with botg?

      Just ask’n

      • charlieM- what makes you think ive not had BOTG?
        I have, all four search area states.
        I am the best, in my mind.
        I think.

      • As long feet are being discussed, I’m going to toss out a thought that I haven’t fully finished thinking about. But, it might lead somewhere, so here goes. . .

        We have repeatedly been told to “nail down” the first clue. But, what does that mean?

        Read Scrapbook #130. FF’s slippers are doing the talking I think. They do not want to be replaced by a new pair. There are several pics of slippers and one pic of FF’s toenail that has apparently caused a hole in his sock.

        But, now consider this. In speaking of clues, FF has said, “They’re contiguous. I knew where I wanted to hide the treasure chest, so it was easy for me to put one foot down and then step on it to get to the next foot. That’s what I did.”

        It kinda sounds like FF is talking about counting the paces by measureing with his feet. But, maybe that isn’t what he is saying. He said he “put one foot down and then step on it to get to the next foot”. Why step on it? When I’m pacing something out, I put one foot in front of the other, not one on top of the other. But, wait. . . If he put one foot down and then stepped on it to get to the other foot, would he not be “nailing it down”? Look at the pic of the toes sticking out of FF’s sock on Scrapbook #130. If you are stepping on the end of one foot to get to the next, aren’t you “nailing” or stepping down on the nail of the foot?

        Just something different to think about. IMO

        • Flutterby;

          This is not the only place Forrest discusses Nails – remember in Graveyard Logic, he talks about the nails in the pottery. In the SB about (I think it was ) Shilo’s ranch burning down, didn’t he mention nails? In Santa Fe Roosters he mentions iron (Although not nails – closely related). Nails (or iron things) seem to pop up quite often – If you look for them – Along with “Nailing down the first clue” – Instead of “First Clue” – could this be the first (or #1) HINT??? Just askin’ – JDA

          • There is a frequent running theme in Forrest stories about feet, slippers, boots, moccasins, horseshoes, shoes (or the lack thereof) and nails. Forrest is always finding himself in predicaments without his shoes.

          • I agree JDA. Could be the first of a number of hints that lead to the first clue.

        • Anagram from FTINPFTM = “A hole in the sock of”. Not the first association I’ve come across like this from poem anagrams and scrapbook contents.

          “If someone is entertained by anagramming words I will not say it is tomfoolery” f

          Looks like someone may be entertaining themselves

        • * * * * Flutterby wondered – “We have repeatedly been told to “nail down” the first clue. But, what does that mean?” * * * *

          We’ve been told repeatedly that we need to figure out, identify, discover, and/or start with the first clue, but only once told to have it “nailed down.”

          (At least according to my own notes. Are there other examples or quotes using “nail down” re the first clue?)

          Given ff’s many other first clue references, “nailed down” means discover, identify, and figure out.

          Help me understand why it would or should mean something else?

          Jake

          • J A,
            I suppose I’m referring to the many times “nail it down” has been repeated by others. You are probably right that FF may have only said it once. But, we keep hearing it. That is what I meant to say. Anyway; it could mean “discover, identify, and figure out” or it could mean something else. I guess we won’t know for sure til someone finds the TC.

          • Interesting choice of words…”nailed down”.
            In the simplest form that may relate to Fenn’s intention of using that terminology would be…*find out or identify(something) exactly*. This definition seems to fit his many comments; figure out, identify, discover, learn. Learn is interesting too because it seems to specify a process that will take time. and effort. Side note on *learn*…old terminology meaning [last footprint].
            Another poskibility about *nailed down* could be Fenn being his tricky self and saying that in order to *figure out* the first clue one must *nail* the correct meaning of the word *down* as he is using it. Some folks automatically equate that as moving to a lower area or elevation…or toward the bottom of. Another usage of *down* is simply; along, around, through, toward, in, into or on…without reference to height or elevation.

        • Flutterby,

          i think he meant he simply put one foot down and lift the other foot to continue… meaning he had to step on the first foot to put the other in front.

          Pacing is a good idea, but we need a number count, regardless of ‘one foot heal to toe’ or one leg length stride or appox. 3′ stretch.

          So where do the numbers come from? I have some ideas, what are yours and why?

          Personally I think the comment was only saying we need to hike the location of the clues… no driving, horseback riding, jumping train, renting boat… just put on foot in front of the other.
          Although, there could be another idea at play here…. ‘steps.’ More than likely, natural stone steps to hike up or down.

          Look at the poem’s this way, Find wwwh and go down the stone steps below the hoB… a stepping down [or up] in a natural setting could be considered NPFTM [ fear of falling or height etc… reach the end of “creek” ~ being a narrow passage ~ [ stone stairs ] and all you have now is WWWH above.. “Just heavy loads and water high.
          At the end… sits the blaze. LOL in theory

          ** think of the stairs that take many to the bottom of the grand canyon in YSP, idea,[near the upper falls] only natural, and not far in distance. Is the idea of “NF, but too far to walk” saying; “steps” poetically-?- vs. “walk” {they are synonyms}
          I don’t see steps as walking [that is only an action]… but more to “descending or ascending,” line of thinking. **The line is a clue, only we need to understand the answer, in the physical world.
          PS; it’s not about changing a word, but understanding its usages. fenn changed the words over and over to get it just right, “difficult, but not impossible…and still being “straightforward” in meaning and honesty.

          Just rumbling and rambling…

          • Although I like your “Personally I think the comment was only saying we need to hike the location of the clues… no driving, horseback riding, jumping train, renting boat… just put on foot in front of the other.” – If clue #1 is “Begin it wwwh – What information or hint in the poem gets you to that one-and-only wwwh location? Since Forrest drove, parked, and then hiked – We too must drive, park and hike to where it begins – If we do as you suggest.

            So, as I asked, what is there in the poem that leads us to “A” spot that we drive to, park, and then hike to wwwh? THAT is the hard part.

            I HAVE an ideal wwwh under your scenario. I know why I wound up there – 31 months and 21 trips and LOTS of hard work – but there is no one line or stanza that I can point to in the poem that leads me to that spot – THAT is my problem – JDA

          • “21 trips”: ahh, JDA, so you slipped another one in there recently. You were at 20 not too long ago. 😉

          • Seeker,
            Why do we need numbers? I don’t. As I understand the poem, it does not contain numbers.

            As far as the comment possibly meaning that we must hike, I seriously doubt it. But of course that is just my opinion. I just don’t get caught up in all this discussion of whether FF flew his plane, drove his car, drove a rental of some sort, parked, took a boat, swam or whatever. I don’t think any of that matters in the least. I think the only thing that matters is to match the clues to places on the map. Period. That’s it!

            I also do not think that the blaze is the end of the clues. I think the poem tells us what the blaze is. I think I know what it is. Just still working on where it is.

            I also am not suggesting anyone change any words in the poem. That would be messing with the poem and that is not allowed. But, understanding alternative definitions for the words in the poem, is fair game I believe. In fact, FF has told us that we need to take another look at the meaning of our words.

            Scrapbook #73 “The two acres surrounding our home are covered with beautiful bluish-purple flowers. My wife says they’re weeds, and I don’t understand why. Who gets to decide what’s a weed and what’s a flower? Some things that seem simple to me can be so complicated for others. I THINK WE SHOULD TAKE ANOTHER LOOK AT OUR DEFINITIONS. If it’s pretty, why would anyone call it a weed? That’s a derogatory term. Besides, weeds grow much faster than flowers and that’s a plus for us gardeners. I wonder if our nursery sells weed seeds.”

            If we rumble and ramble enough, maybe we will put enough info together to get this thing solved. 🙂

          • JDA- So, as I asked, what is there in the poem that leads us to “A” spot that we drive to, park, and then hike to wwwh? THAT is the hard part. IMO, BOTG need not be till after TFTW. g

          • OK, I mis-counted – only 20 trips – hoping for trip 21 before fall – Sorry – JDA

          • JDA,

            It don’t matter how we get to the location… right now there’s a guy on a bicycle going to his location, and maybe even able to peddle closer to the clues than others can drive.
            Yet, fenn did make a comment about dumping hid bike in WH… So apparently we don’t really need to worry about where we park a vehicle.
            What that bike comment says to me is; the walking, hiking, stepping, running, skipping is going to be over a moderate area of travel… knowing where to park is no part at all for me, hard or otherwise… I’m only looking for the first clue’s location and /or all the clues location, I’m not in the least worried about a parking lot.

            We just need to know where the clues are at. If ya want to jump rope to get there, it’s fine by me.

          • Seeker;

            I see your point – I guess I will just skip 🙂 Thanks for the post – JDA

          • Seeker: “I’m only looking for the first clue’s location and /or all the clues location”

            I would word it “all the clues locations”.

          • * * * * Ken asked – “How many *feet* are there in the *poem*?” * * * *

            Not sure it matters, Ken, but since you asked –

            Most of the poem (the twenty-one lines with 8 syllables) is iambic tetrameter, so four feet (of two syllables each) per line.

            (da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM – just like the first 3 lines of every stanza of The Jabberwocky)

            The exceptions are lines 2, 3, and 7 –

            Line 2 – And with my treasures bold – is iambic trimeter, so 3 feet (of two syllables each)

            (da-DUM da-DUM da-DUM)

            Lines 3 – I can keep my secret where –
            and 7 – Not far, but too far to walk – have seven syllables each

            (DA-dum DA-dum DA-dum DA)

            I no longer have the chops to parse those two lines metrically – they’ve either got 3 or four feet each (I THINK it’s the number of accented syllables that count).

            So 21 lines of 4 feet = 84
            1 line of 3 feet = 87
            And then another combined 6 or 8 feet for the two I’m not sure of = 93 or 95.

            So there ya go. Don’t say I never gave you nuttin’ 😉

            Jake

          • Alright Ken – I couldn’t leave it, had to crack a book.

            The two 7-syllable lines are catalectic trochaic tetrameter, so four feet each (“catalectic” because shortened or incomplete – there’s a one-syllable foot at the end of the line).

            DA-dum DA-dum DA-dum DA

            The witches in Macbeth –

            “Fair is foul and foul is fair”

            “When shall we three meet again”

            So the whole poem has 95 feet, and I claim my five pounds.

            Jake

          • Jake…so there you have it, a set of numbers…with a legitimate way of getting them. A simple *tap* of the *foot* and a cadence begins…

          • Also JAKraven….the word *there’ll* is a catch…depending how one pronounces it.

        • Flutterby,

          When F said, …”so it was easy for me to put one foot down and then step on it to get to the next foot.”, he is simply saying he walked.

          Walking is simply putting a foot down to the ground, then you sift to put your full weight on it, which I believe is a step. I believe F was talking about walking directly to the hiding place. I also believe he was being sarcastic in a small way.

          Anyhow that’s the way I understand it, but good point about heal to toe or one foot between each step which could be determined as a pace. I just don’t see him doing heal to toe, etc.

          Who knows how F walked?

          Just Say’n

        • “…. it was easy for me to put one foot down and then step on it to get to the next foot. That’s what I did….”

          Sounds a lot like wading. Walking we have a fluid continuous transfer of weight with an expectation of adequate friction on our forward foot. Wading requires certainty before the weight transfer. Step, plant, ensure stability, transfer weight, repeat.

        • Just a thought, FB, but just because you put a foot down does not mean it will support your weight. If you step on it, could mean you shift your weight to that foot, thus allowing you to get to the other foot. Rinse and repeat.

          IMO—FF is just putting his spin on “Put one foot in front of the other” saying which simply boils down to getting the task/journey accomplished.

          • My point being that regardless of what the comment meant to say regarding putting one foot down and stepping on it to get to the next step, it is ambiguous. Technically stepping on your toe nail is “nailing it down”. I’m not saying that is an answer in the poem. I’m pointing out that there are multiple ways to look at the same words. Lots of people seem stuck on generic definitions and assumptions that may or may not be right. I think this poem might get solved if people would consider alternate definitions of some of the words. That is basically what I’m saying.

      • it’s the three toes that freak you out aint it Dal. all the other searchers will be wearing boots so I cant see those five nubs you humans got…that freaks me out. ewwww.

        • JDA, I like your train of thought on this. If I may, let me offer up another…What if the driving part is WWWH and the canyon down? Meaning, when you “put in” below the HoB, that’s where you park and start walking. I’m onto a solve right now that fits this. Just wanted to see what you think…

          • Flannery;

            Seeker is suggesting that the 9 clues require no driving; that all nine clues are in a relatively small area, and can be hiked 1 to 2 to 3 etc.

            I can easily get to a parking spot. I can hike to a logical wwwh spot that leads to Indulgence. My problem was looking for something in the poem that would direct me to that wwwh spot.

            Seeker’s response was that, for him, it matters not why or how you get to the wwwh spot, all that matters (to him) is that you are at the correct wwwh spot, and progress through the clues from there.

            I would still like to figure out the why and/or how the poem directs or leads one to the wwwh spot, but am happy to accept his POV. JDA

  17. Jake Faulker,
    You questioned my posting on the previous Odd-n-ends page, so I wanted to share a bit more info on it. Sounds like you picked up on the definition I shared in which the word effort can mean=a force exerted by a machine or in a process.

    I was not implying that the force was being exerted by a machine. I was only quoting a definition for the word effort. It’s the other part of the definition I’m interested in. “force exerted by . . . a process”. That can be a natural process. This definition does not say it must be a machine. It is a machine OR in a process.

    I believe the line “effort will be worth the cold” means the following
    effort=force exerted by a natural process
    will=to turn into
    be=come to be, exist, happen
    worth= come to be
    cold= possibly coaled

    If you use the definitions above, then the words say exactly what they mean, but they mean something different than what you previously thought they did.

    • From Wiki:
      The Aggie War Hymn is the war hymn of Texas A&M University; officially, the school does not have a fight song.

      Romberg’s Stout-hearted Men is on P70

  18. Lug, I’m a newbie. I appreciate everyone’s help.
    I was just looking for confirmation of an idea I had.
    I leave in two weeks.
    I am of the opinion that WWWH and the blaze are the same thing and that you have to solve the poem riddle before applying it to a map and resolving the poem.
    At least that’s what I’m telling myself. It allowed me to narrow down locations to justify a trip.

    • Wayne
      I believe you are on to something many have not considered, but I believe to be key to solving this chase. My solve includes two forms of WWWH that lead you on a journey that begins and ends with WWWH. This approach will tie in the dbl omegas on the last page of the book. I believe the dbl omegas may be the greatest hint in the book. To me, the dbl omegas mean “begin it” at the end and end it at the beginning…Forrest made references in TTOTC of taking his turn or someone having another turn, almost as if to suggest there may be a never ending process.

      My solve begins at one form of WWWH and ends at another form of WWWH…

      Answer from Forrest to six questions on mysteriouswritings.com:
      “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental. T. S. Eliot said:
      We shall not cease from our exploration
      And at the end of all our exploring
      Will be to arrive where we started
      And know the place for the first time”

      Just some good food for thought and always IMO

      • I completely agree. It ends where it starts. The chest has a beginning and an end that are very similar. The path is a circle.

        • Randy Johnson: are you sure? Moby Dickens Book Shop video (11/2/2013), second question asked at the 7:50 mark:

          Forrest: “Is there another question?”

          Questioner: “I have one about the poem. Umm, if you follow the poem precisely, will you find yourself switching back?”

          Forrest: “If you follow the clues in the poem precisely, would I what?”

          Female questioner: “Will you find yourself switching back? … Making a loop.”

          Forrest: “This gal’s dangerous, you know that?! (laughter) Would I find myself switching back. Well I think I can say no to that without giving away too much of the clue.”

          • Forrest: “This gal’s dangerous, you know that?! (laughter) Would I find myself switching back. Well I think I can say no to that without giving away too much of the clue.”

            You see FF did not want to go into that question to deep. When he does that raise an eyebrow and start taking notes. It’s his tell. He isn’t a good bluffer. He thinks he’s throwing out the joker but he is really trying to sway away.

            I will say this that where you literally put BOTG in a short cut way is the same as where it begins. You cross the same kind of path. What I’m saying is there are 2 ways of going about it.

            Yes there is a short cut and it is the same as WWWH! Oh ya IMO. I don’t want JDA to put me in the guillotine. Lol

        • Randy;

          Interpretation – Interpretation – Interpretation. No actual look, you do not end up exactly where you begin, but you DO start at “A” wwwh, and you DO end up at “A” wwwh. Different, but the same – Is how I see it. Others may see it differently. – JMO – JDA

          • You’re picking up what I’m putting down JDA…Or maybe the other way around as I know you’ve been on your solve for awhile now LOL

      • For clarity, my solve does not involve a circle or loop. One WWWH is defined in the beginning and the other is discovered at the end. Think of it this way: If we are at my house, sitting in my living room, and I told you to start where I parked my car (inside the garage to the rear of my house) then instructed you to travel in this door and go that direction, etc. etc. and you wound up standing outside my house, in my driveway, in the front yard would the trip not have involved two different locations I could park my car and not travel in a circle?

        • …and from this example, each location would look and feel very different, although both work for the description “where I park my car”

        • Mine is very straight forward. Draw a line (straight or curved – no matter. Put the letters “A”. “B”, “C” and “D” along this line.

          “A” is a WWWH, “B” = something. “C” = something else and “D” again = WWWH – “A” and “D” are the same but different – NOT found at the same location – JDA

  19. Randy,
    I agree that there is a circle involved here; a cycle that gets repeated again and again.

    • Randy
      Why does the time frame change for your solve if other ppl know or not? Fenn has said someone with the correct solve can walk right to the chest…Reasoning for your statement leads me to think either you are searching a very large area or have not got a complete solve, one of the two….

    • Don’t poke the bear.
      What did Forrest say?
      Something about not getting the alligator mad till you cross the river?

      • It’s better to do it and be sorry you did it than not do it and be sorry you didn’t do it.
        Did i do that right?

  20. Hey Zaphod, I just found a meteorite!

    Winona Meteorite = anagram from IDITANIW
    (still haven’t figured out if this is just a monkey, type writers, Shakespeare kinda thing but I suppose so….no closer to the treasure but the incremental knowlege gained on things likes meteorites and the Sinagua is fun)

  21. The people who were within 200 feet had gotten the first two clues correct.
    BIWWWH = a sea.
    “And Take it in” = see
    You have “a sea” “see” = Assisi
    I have talked about this clue before and others pointed out that they had seen it in the poem too. This is what brought the searchers within 200 feet of the treasure. It brought them to the Cathedral of St Francis of Assisi in Santa Fe. Not an unreasonable starting point.
    They had now gotten as far as the little girl in India could, and they could get no closer to the chest. How? Why?
    Because the Cathedral itself is the chest. The poem leads us through the chest not to the chest.
    Of course, the searchers believed otherwise and went right by the chest to a canyon somewhere not far but too far to walk, oblivious to the fact that they had already found their destination.
    Other searchers likely found the first two clues but saw no reason to go there and simply started in some nearby canyon.
    The path through the church and its grounds is about a 75-yard journey hence they were within 200 feet, plus or minus.
    When Fenn introduces the chase, he states; “it was the perfect treasure chest”. Why was it perfect? Because a description of that chest was nearly identical to a description of the Cathedral.
    They were both bronze, they both had human figures in relief on their outsides, they were both Romanesque in design, and they both contained over twenty troy pounds of gold. Remember Fenn has told us the story about the gold is true. So the description of the chest must be accurate.
    In this famous line Fenn introduces the chase. “There must be a few Indiana Jones types out there, like me, ready to throw a bedroll in the pickup and start searching, with a reasonable chance of discovering “a” (that’s right “a”) treasure chest containing more than twenty troy pounds of gold”
    We have discovered, all of us, that there is not a reasonable chance of discovering the little bronze box.
    But if you have the first two clues there is a reasonable chance of discovering that the cathedral is in fact the bronze treasure chest Fenn describes.
    Fenn says the clues must be followed precisely. With precision, the smaller the increment of measure the more precise the measurement becomes. He is telling us to proceed in small increments along the path. If you do you will find the path never leaves the cathedral property.
    I will not bore you with the details of every turn. Some involve religion, and as I have recently discovered a lot of people despise religion. So I will outline the highlights and give you the reason Fenn will be buried next to the cathedral.
    Upon entering the cathedral, the first thing you notice is the colored light appearing on the walls and floors, thrown from the enormous stained-glass windows from above. This is the end of the rainbow. A few steps in you see an area for the lighting of candles, near the entrance of the church, and far at the other end there is another such area. One in front and one in the back. Candles burning at both ends. In a small cabinet built in to the wall there is a spot for storage of the sacred oils, olive oils in jars. Above the alter is Christ on the cross and emanating from behind are rays of light just like those emanating from behind Fenn’s head in many staged pictures. (see back dust jacket TOTC). Off to the side there is a small chapel and within it is the burial of Archbishop Lamay, a French soldier of God. At the next spot you see what you have been looking for. The reliquary, for it holds gold crosses, ten of them and they are large and heavy. Certainly, twenty troy pounds of gold.
    At this point the path takes you outside to the prayer garden. On your way you see a painting of St. Francis with a scissortail perched on his hand, and past an ancient graveyard where the early settlers of Santa Fe are buried. (Fenn likes graveyards). As you make your final steps you see a bronze sculpture of St. Francis. He stands dressed in his heavy cloak that is bound at the waist with a knotted rope. He is the teacher. Above his head in the stained-glass window is the dove, the same dove the axe man sees. The last clue and perhaps the most surprising is the turquoise beaded bracelet worn by the statue of the first Native American saint.
    These are not coincidences, they are not produced by confirmation bias, these aberrations at the edges all appear in a journey of less than a hundred yards.
    Fenn loves Santa Fe. He moved here to relieve himself from the trauma of war. He raised his family here. He started two business, one that turned out to be enormously successful, and he is grateful. He loves the laid-back atmosphere and the meld of ethnic and cultural traditions. He has woven himself into the fabric of the community and the community has returned the favor. Fenn is a lover of history and within view of the cathedral is a statue depicting the founders of Santa Fe. It shows a pioneer, a Native American, and a Spaniard. This is how Fenn sees himself, a settler, a pioneer and founder.
    And he wishes to be buried in the same graveyard they are. Right next to the Cathedral. Where the sign on the granite cross reads; “In honor of the original settlers of Santa Fe buried here” where he can meet with them at the “great banquet table of history.”

    • I have to give you an “A”+ for imagination. Can not say I agree with you, but YEA for you. You are ah thinkin’. Hope it all pans out for Ya’ – JDA

    • Nope.

      Your cathedral solve is beautiful but that about all it is.

      It’s literally a world away from where the treasure really is.

      • Well…it’s at least 8.25 mi away, that’s for sure. Nevermind that whole ‘in the mountains’ thingy.

        Plus, I’m kinda bummed out about the comment:

        “We have discovered, all of us, that there is not a reasonable chance of discovering the little bronze box.”

        • If you are 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe the treasure is hidden from you. Santa Fe is in the mountains somewhere. Fenn shows it on his map

  22. Could someone remind me, how far has Forrest confirmed a searcher has progressed? Two clues or four clues? I suspect those that were within 200 feet of the treasure were not there because of the clues…they may have been there incidentally. From my perspective, I suspect there was a reason those that had 2 clues correct, walked passed the other seven. The second clue must be interpreted correctly.

    • I think you could have up to the first 3 or 4 clues correct and walk pass the other 5 or 6 if you are only confident in those clues. I believe another level of confidence must be satisfied for the remaining clues for you to commit to searching thorough enough to discover the chest…

  23. PS I also believe now that all 9 clues are held within Stanza 2,3, and 4. Please commence knife throwing….

    • Yes I agree with you 2nd 3rd and 4th stanzas are the MAIN. The 5th stanza. Explains what he’s done and what he had to do or did to find the hiding place. The last sentence in the 5th stanza is a hint and a clue as to how and when he found the hiding spot.
      6th stanza 3rd sentence is where the Chest is hidden.

      Randy. “Drone”

      • Well, I can stop worrying that you are going to beat me to the TC Randy Johnson. I do not believe that you can find it if you don’t think all the stanzas are important. Stanza #1 is essential in my opinion. Good luck though. I will be happy for whoever finds it.

        • Oh no incorrect. I believe they are all important. Every word is important.

          • I may never collect it but I’m sure giving it a heck of a go. My last trip out twisted a knee pretty good. But actually back in the bush in the morning.

        • Flutterby;

          I agree that all stanza’s are important. Question is, “Does important equate to a “Clue”? Maybe not. “Hints” may be just as important if the “Hints” help with the “Clues”

          Can the poem be solved with only the clues – which I personally think are found in stanza’s 2,3 and 4? Probably not. The “Hints” in stanza’s 5, 6, and 1 are invaluable in solving the clues – at least they are to me.

          A “Hint” – “in the wood” gets me to the correct “Clue” WWWH. Without getting the correct WWWH – You are nowhere. You can not get to the correct WWWH without the “Hint” in stanza #6.

          HINTS in stanzas #1, 5 and 6 describe elements of what the final “Hidey spot” will look like – without them, you could walk on by, and never know how close you were. At least, that is how the “hints” work for me – they help with the clues – without the hints, there is incomplete understanding of the clues – JMO – JDA

      • Ya Randy,
        It’s hidden at the base of Woodward Mtn.
        There are no shortcuts.

    • IMO
      Everyone is jumping around as to what is important and what is not for hint/clue conversations…I’m going to keep this simple because it is simple: Pronouns matter…Any stanza or line that references first person pronoun “I” or “me” is a hint. All of Stanza 1 and 5 are only hints. Stanza 2-4 are second person or “Your” directions or Clues to the treasure. The 6th stanza is a blend of the two so line 21 is a hint, line 22 and 23 contain clues and line 24 marries I and you to compete the elegant poem Fenn put together.
      Further – The key word that Fenn speaks of is “I” in my opinion because it provides you with a way to split the poem between recognizing hints vs clues.

      • Interesting – I have never seen this method of separating hints and clues – Good luck – JDA

        • You basically have two stories taking place, one is literal and that is “your” journey and everything is real in that trek. The other journey is metaphoric and represented by “I” throughout the poem. The “I” journey (hints) need to be attached to elements of “your” journey (clues) such as WWWH….To paraphrase Fenn, I can’t say more because I’ve already said too much!

          Of course, ALL IMO

          • Thank you Randy, Treasure and JDA. After my last Boots on the ground, I am now of the opinion that the 6th stanza is just encouragement…cheerleading of sorts. Pay attention to the nine clues…thet are what’s of primary importance IMO. Thanks again

  24. Underwood pg 257
    Just keep on typing & chopping down trees for the ink to set.
    mirror on my wall

  25. So I have an answer that checks off:
    WWWH
    TIITCD
    PIBTHOB
    FTINPFTM
    TBNPUYC
    IYBWAFTB
    TAIAK
    YEWBWTC
    IYABAITW

    A single answer. My hope is the BOTG will lead to. re-solve to get me to the exact spot. Basically it’s a riddle and the directions.
    You all have been here much longer than me. How does this approach sound?

    • Not bad….Based on how I interpret the poem, TAIAK is a hint not a clue.

    • I wonder if the value placed on an offered opinion should be inveresely proportionate to the duration the offeror has been here?

      As somewhat of a ‘newcomer,’ it seems to me that your solve is at the very least as good as any others that have been considered here…and likely better than most, given # of clues your ticking. Go get it!

    • Wayne
      As LingeringDoubt just mentioned there are some that have been a part of this chase longer than others. I wouldn’t discredit any opinion based on tenure alone (some have been on the blogs for 8 years and never made one trip into the field) because I believe there are many fresh ideas coming down the blog pipelines or ones that haven’t been visited in a long time. This is my first search season and I’ve been to the Rockies now 3 times from 2000 miles away.

      I would say guys that have been in the field carry a little more credence because they have a better idea of what’s realistic once you hit the dirt and start looking. My whole solve changed after the first search because I realized how crazy and unrealistic elements of the chase can be once you try to apply it when you’re BOTG…Some things look great on a map but just aren’t feasible in the field. My approach to the poem also changed drastically because again, imagination is important but must be applicable to a map or you’ll get out in the field and it will be like searching for a key in the yard without a flashlight at midnight with no moon LOL

      Hope your first trip goes well and keep the creative juices circulating…None of us are right till we’re right

  26. its my opinion – that wwwh is where you begin – there for it would be like hob at low elevation – when you take it in the canyon down that’s where youll find the home of brown my salve tells me they are about 23 miles apart -this is just my its late opinion

    • Frank,
      How do you get around fenn’s comments [ in part ]
      “…prompts me to say that if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking too far. f.”
      or
      He “…walked less than a few miles…”
      He “followed the clues when [he] hid the treasure”
      and
      warns us to be able to walk several hours to our solves {twice} or don’t go.
      “…The clues must be followed in order, there’s no other way to my knowledge…”

      The Idea; that we should be able to walk {twice} through our supposed correct solution to the chest [ and retrieve it ] implies the “same route” should be taken “twice”… That’s over 46 miles on one afternoon of travel in your post. [ for only the first few clues ]

      You can believe what you want, but the above comments all seem to imply he walked, and we should walk/hike ‘both’ trips ‘following’ the same clue route. [regardless of the physical clues counts]

      Can you explain why almost 50 miles [one trip] would be involved vs. fenn’s ATF’s comments?
      LOL my quick calculation, would have a searcher traveling close to two hundred miles for two trips in your post.

      • appears you assume frank’s solve has him walking from wwwh to hob…don’t see that he says that…actually silent on that bit. perhaps he just drives to hob and puts in there, eliminating the 23*4 mileage of wwwh-hob?

        • My posting of fenn’s comment reflects the idea of walking through a ‘solve’ ~ [which is a completed task] as a logical assumption of the action to finishing / completing the task of retrieving the trove.

          Frank stated ~ ‘its my opinion – that wwwh is where you begin…’ That is a ‘starting point’ of beginning the task in frank’s comment…

          If he wants to drive out clues, fine by me. Yet, should this be [ as the ATF comments imply ] walking the clues, and what we have been told; fenn did on the day he hid the trove… Franks travels [ twice ] is a very long walk.

          You did see my inquiry about just that… right?
          *~ Can you explain why almost 50 miles [one trip] would be involved vs. fenn’s ATF’s comments? ~* because Frank didn’t explain his opinion to be reasonable [ in distance of clues ] vs. many comments fenn has stated… so I asked him to do so…

          To be honest, LingeringDoubt, I would hope by now, searchers would add to conversations with some kinda reasonable backup for their posting / opinion.
          Just saying in my opinion doesn’t add a dang thing to a conversation without adding anything to explain it.

          It leads to exactly what is happening now… you and I are guessing what the searcher’s post is attempting to say.

          • Seeker;

            It amazes me how much a solve can change over time, balanced against all of Forrest’s ATF’s. My BASIC search area has hot changed over the past thirty-one months – That being said, my current search area is SOOOO much smaller. In my original solve, I traveled almost 20 miles from WWWH to where I thought Indulgence was secreted. Today, from my wwwh to where I think Indulgence is secreted, it is only about 500′.(Where I think Indulgence is secreted today is within 1/2 mile of where I originally thought it would be found, and is within 350′ of another earlier solve)

            I still start at the same place I started 31 months ago, I still take “A” canyon down, go past “A” hob etc to the same parking spot – The only difference is that I no longer consider these locations “THE” locations mentioned in the poem.They are just waypoints.

            From where I park – and the same place that I think Forrest parked – we both have/had to hike about 1/2 mile to get to my NEW WWWH spot. Once at my NEW WWWH spot all of the rest of the clues are within a 500′ circle.

            Kinda like a target. 31 months ago my focus was on the entire target – from the outer ring into the inner ring. Today I focus ONLY on the “Bullseye” – The rest of the target is still there, but it is now out of focus. ONLY the bullseye is now in ficus. What was it that Forrest said about focus? –
            “It is interesting to know that a great number of people are out there searching. Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key. The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated.” f

            What is “The word that is key”? Can’t say today, but maybe soon. IF my focus is now correct – JDA

          • Oh, I see. You logically assume walking through the solve. I take ‘too far to walk’ to mean just that. Leaves plenty of distance between us for interpretation:)

            Yeah, I don’t really care about backup of opinions and such…it’s just interesting to see all the variety of thought.

            Flutterby nailed it I think in a recent post…nobody really, really knows, until they actually locate it….all opinion, speculation, fishing, etc., until then.

          • JDA,
            500′ doesn’t seem too far to walk.
            Forrest wanted us to go out & explore looking for his treasure & to look for all 9 clues in a 500′ diameter area seems ridiculous.

            In my mind the 9 clues should be spread out miles away except for the last few clues which should be close together to pinpoint a specific small area.

          • Jake;

            NFBTFTW may not be an indication of distance, but rather the condition of the land – Maybe a narrow gorge or valley, that would be hard (or dangerous) to walk, therefore, take another route – Just a possibility – JDA

          • JDA,
            That’s a tough sell to me.
            So, NFBTFTW has nothing to do with distance or walking but conditions that aren’t mentioned in this line of the poem?
            As far as I’m concerned you just left the poem.

          • Jake;

            Distance is involved – It isn’t far, this non-walkable area –
            Far has a great number of synonyms:
            achingly, almighty, archly, AWFUL awfully, badly, beastly, blisteringly, bone, colossally, dang DANGEROUS, DEADLY desperately, eminently, enormously, especially, ever, EXCEEDINGLY (also exceeding), extra,EXTREMELY, fabulously, fantastically, fiercely, filthy, FRIGHTFULLY, full, greatly, heavily, highly, hugely, immensely, incredibly, intensely, jolly, majorly, mightily, mighty, mortally, most, much, particularly, passing, real, really, right, roaring, seriously,SEVERELY, so, sore, sorely, spanking, specially, such, super, supremely, surpassingly, TERRIBLY, that, thumping, too, uncommonly, vastly, very, vitally, way, whacking, wicked, WILDLY.

            I have highlighted (put in caps) a few that might apply.
            “Not DEADLY, but too DANGEROUS to walk” – Seems to work for me.

          • JDA: “it isn’t far”

            Forrest says it’s far but you disagree.
            You have left the poem.
            Nothing matters after that point.

          • Jake;

            You are not reading, just talkin’

            The line in the poen reads:
            “Not FAR but too FAR to walk.
            Substituting synonyms =
            “Not DEADLY, but too DANGEROUS to walk”

            How have I left the poem? I have just used different meanings of “FAR” – Don’t you use different meanings of different words in the poem Jake? Seems like most people do – but then you may be a PURE – poem purest – No substitution of words with other words that mean the same thing. JDA

          • I’ll offer something else that I think is invaluable to finding the chest…Breaking down the poem more:

            Notice that the 3rd stanza does not use any pronouns. This is because the instructions in that stanza do not invoke a botg action until HOB line. These clues are only map based clues helping you narrow down your search field unitl you “put in”…I believe most of the third stanza tells us how to narrow down our search without botg till the “put in” and its backed up by the words Forrest uses that invoke an action from the searcher….

            I use this approach because it provides logic to the words and the way Forrest has put them together in the poem…He was an architect when he built this thing.

            It’s been 8 years and I want someone to find this thing…I hopes its me but either way, it may take the community to get enough boots out there at all logical spots the poem describes…
            All IMO

          • Seeker,

            You haven’t read my solve, The Poem Married to a Map. I think there are very good points to be made about the route of travel. Also when I put botg I did follow all of the clues “in my mind”. However I physically followed the clues from NPFTM to where I believed the treasure was hidden.

            Couldn’t F have followed the clues “in his mind” and only physically followed the clues part way through the poem?
            He doesn’t clearly say how he followed the clues. F does say he walked from where he parked his car, nor does he say at what point in the poem that he parked.

            Just ask’n do you definitely know for sure how far he walked or when he walked? I think some of F’s comments are about the same thing but said in different ways during many Q&A’s. I also believe some ATF’s and Q&A’s might lead to going astray.

            Just Say’n

          • Correction: I’m referring to the 2nd Stanza in the above post NOT the 3rd. Not sure where my mind was at while typing that LOL

          • I’m reading fine JDA.
            It’s our different interpretations is what gets in the way.
            I take all the words in the poem as straightforward value & use the most common definitions of our time without digging into archaic meanings.

            When we search all the meanings of a word like “far” that’s in the poem, I’m wondering why we do that?
            What’s wrong with the most logical meaning?

            Subterfuge is running wild in us but not in the poem.

            Side note: I don’t know what a pronoun is & I’m not going to look it up & that should explain everything.

            I won’t leave the poem.

          • CharlieM ~ ‘Couldn’t F have followed the clues “in his mind” and only physically followed the clues part way through the poem?’

            Sure… and the sky is not blues it’s only a reflection/scattering of blue light rays in the atmosphere.

            Fenn has been asked umteen times about if he took a shorter route or followed the clues as we are told to do. Earlier answers basically stated ‘there is no other why he knows of.’
            Yet, fenn has now stated he followed the clues ‘when’ he hid the trove… I highly doubt one of the most sought after question [ and fenn know this ] over 8 years, would be a 1/2 truth or any other percentage, besides the full fact.
            PS, I did read your solve… I’ll leave it up to you is you want full discloser of an honest opinion from me [ which I’ll do on that thread, should you request one for conversations]. But for now, all I’ll say is… it was on a respirator and life support from the start…imo.

          • JDA,
            My definition of a poem PURIST is one that does not use the books or any other material other than the poem itself to solve the 9 clues where the chest is hidden, the down side is that some can use numbers from the poem only & come up with locations & I would call them poem by numbers purists.

      • seeker – you need to go back and read my first comment – and wwwh and home of brown are no where near where the treasure chest is – wwwh and hob are the beginning at low elevation – wwwh is the gate way to hob- where from hob- all the clues- and up to the end where the treasure is begin- and as to my salve ff walked less then a quarter mile each way—– wwwh——-hob——blaze—–in the wood——tc imo

          • Randy and JDA
            I like the logic and mine is similar. Its a very logical way to find spots or regions and then focus in on a particular spot that the chest is secreted…

          • Sorry frank meant to say you and JDA. I was reading thru some of the other post when I posted above…

        • Jake I guess i can also be called a poem purist I have no problem with that frank

        • from the beginning of in the wood where he parked to the north end of in the wood where he hid the treasure chest is less then a quarter mile or a little over a foot ball field imo and my salve

          • frank . . . no offense intended, as I’m trying to help you.
            Have you looked up “salve” and “halt” in a dictionary?

      • Forrest said to pay attention to all the nouns in the poem…I believe he was talking about the pronouns and IMO, they are key to breaking this chase wide open….Follow the pronouns to decipher the poem. Split them up based on their use and you will unlock your solve!!

    • @ Jake – In slight defense of JDA, couldn’t he be called a “Poetry Purist” since he is providing a poetic interpretation of the debated NFBTFTW line? After all, 1000′ isn’t too far to walk, but if it is a 1000′ sheer vertical cliff being described, that kinda makes me think such would be too far to walk even though it is only 1000′. “Not far, but to far to walk” sounds better poetically than “One thousand feet, but that one thousand feet is impossible to traverse since it is a cliff” (although I concede that we all would prefer it if FF had been so blunt in his clue making!).

      Shakespeare’s use of the word “die” at times within some of his poetry is an example of a word/phrase used poetically which, when understood correctly within the context, certainly has nothing to do with becoming deceased.

      Just food for thought.

      • On the surface I would not believe that “too far” could mean a vertical cliff that is too hard to walk. If FF needed to speak more literally then he would have said something like ‘too difficult to walk” if talking about not being able to traverse a sheer vertical cliff.

        Unfortunately for us the poem format has allowed for him to prevaricate with his words. Because of that it is possible that too far means too difficult but I’m not sold on it.

  27. Something new just occurred to me! How did I not see it sooner sinse it fits my solve so well? WWWH is actually the definition of a land feature.! It’s really so simple that I don’t know why I did not think of it sooner.

    It’s like looking for the needle in the haystack and then realizing you have been staring at it for months, not knowing what it was called.

    IMO

    • Fluuterby,

      Whatever this land feature you are talking about for a representation of WWH might be, you have to be sure there are others.
      What I see or think I see in your post is; A location that has what you feel has all the elements of the poem, and now you finally figured out wwwh. Seems a bit backwards, almost a forcing of it for the other clues to be what you hope they are, just say… IF possible, why would this new epiphany of WWH be needed IF you have many later clues [ including hoB ]?

      Did this new idea change your overall outcome of the area?

      You say WWH is a ‘definition’ of a land feature… Is it actually found in a dictionary? Example; faucet; a device for the flow of liquid, idea. [ a bad example for a feature but only an example ] Can you explain-?- or give us an idea?

      • I’ll offer my .02 if you don’t mind seeker…I define warm water as any inhabitable water for a human. So any waters that are not too contaminated for human entry or frozen. Halt is where this water pauses or stops. By these definitions, you could be describing a lake, pond, river, stream, creek, etc. and its up to us to figure out which WWWH Forrest is referencing…

          • Forrest described warm as comfortable, but that can be difficult to define because its so subjective to ones preference…I take it to mean water that would be safe to stick your hand in.

        • River, stream creek, etc. ? I never saw or heard of one halting,
          without it being frozen. Have you looked up “halt” in a dictionary?
          All IMO.

          • Tighter: “halt” in Forrest’s poem has nothing to do with water freezing to ice. The solution to “where warm waters halt” will not require even a 12-kid Texas redneck with no job to look up the meaning of halt in a dictionary. All my opinion, naturally, and yours may vary — but if so, yours is wrong. 😉

          • water ‘halts’ when it encounters and object or other force that requires a change of direction…look up laminar fluid flow…all the molecules that are sufficiently close to the boundary (depends on things like speed of the fluid, roughness of the boundary surface, etc.) are actually NOT MOVING…so when those molecules push up against a flat rock in the river, they actually stop, if but for just a miniscule moment, and then move on due to momentum, but they still stop, physics and science say so. Here’s another link…do you know how the airspeed indicator in an airplane works? Most are based on this same effect, but use a pitot tube…it measures the stagnant pressure created as the air STOPS as an object moves through it…pitot tubes are usually mounted on the front of the aircraft to be out of the turbulence created by the body/wings etc.

            Not saying this is the end all be all…but the point is, a narrow river canyon, a large boulder in a river, a wide eddy (I know a creek/river that nearly completes a full circle of direction change) or other obstructions in a moving stream of water can technically be considered as a place where water halts…to me the key is that the water is supposedly warm/comfortable. Back to my Canasta game

          • tighterfocus
            Haha, like how you asked the question. I basically answer the question from the original response above and I think both of us know how the dictionary defines the word halt or we’re wasting our time. It would be hard to discuss further without me just telling you what my WWWH is. I will leave it at this and it will probably sound repetitive…IMO WWWH is describing a specific geological feature and Forrest has provided a hint that tells you which one, out of many, north of Santa Fe.

      • Seeker,

        About that word I’ve realized actually means a place WWWH

        Yes there are many others of this land form. Most of them north of Sante Fe.

        I’m currently working on two different solves. They both have the same WWWH and one of them has a second WWWH that involves clouds. I’ve talked about this before. But, right now lets talk about that dictionary word which actually means a place WWWH.

        I’ve been calling this land feature something else; a different word to describe the same thing. Remember the children who came to FF’s art studio and he let them touch the bronze indian? Some thought it was an indian, others a bronze, one thought it was an art.

        What I did not realize is that a more common name for this very same landform (which I’ve been calling sometihng else) actually means a place where water stops, stays or remains. So I am intrigued by the fact that the more common name has a definition that actually fits. Yes- A Dictionary definition.

        Its kind of like the day I realized that the words “look quickly down” can mean peek or peak. Does that mean that peak is the intended word FF was hinting toward? Maybe. Certainly possible since the definition fits. But, impossible to know until you are holding the TC.

        I share a lot of things on this blog. Haven’t decided whether to share this word or not. This landform is a bit fragile. I’m a bit of a naturalist. Not sure that we should have tons of people trampling this landform if it is not the correct WWWH.

        I’m just going to think it over a while. Might share it later.

        • No problems.. only should it be the correct type of wwwh ‘land formation’ it will get out sooner or later and thousand will visit these type of formations, especially if related to the poem.

          Ya got me curious anyways…

    • since it is the first clue, and on line 5, how does line 5 equate to defining a landscape?
      And again, water does not stop, halt, or otherwise. And warm has it’s own problems.
      The clue is line 5, please share how this line, and only this line solved for wwwh. (assuming that you are solving for clues). How did this line tell you to use a dictionary, that it was a land feature, and give you the actual place? In fact, if it has, don’t share, that is some good insight to a clue that f has said he hasn’t given the info to solve it.
      It may be right, you do have to “learn” and find “out” to know wwwh is, but if you are going at it as a clue to solve, line 5 is it. Any line before it would mean that line would then be the clue, same with after. I can’t see what you are saying from just line 5. Then again, I’m not holding a chest, so who knows.

  28. As I have seen in a few search area solves posted throughout they are in areas not known to have Rocky Mountain Bighorn Sheep. To me if your area is not known to have R.M. Bighorn Sheep then your searching the wrong area. Remember Forrest said something to the affect that where the chest is hidden you could see bighorn sheep.

    I would check your state – area.
    For you Colorado searchers maybe this could be a good reference for you.

    https://databasin.org/datasets/8e303e1f4df14e55a3ca5132122b7f3f

    Hope this helps some.
    Bur

    • Hello Bur. Would you be so kind to provide a link to where Mr. Fenn mentioned bighorn sheep, please? I’ve tried using the Tarry Scant website, and could not find it.

      • Sorry pdenver I was working and just seen comments.
        I don’t have that comment of Forrest right now, it would take some searching but it is out there somewhere. Maybe someone will come across it before I get the chance to search and find. That comment was quite a few years back.

        Bur

    • Bur,

      You said,”Remember Forrest said something to the affect that where the chest is hidden you could see bighorn sheep.”

      I don’t recall F mentioning Big Horn Sheep being near the chest. Could you point out where you got that information.

      • LingeringDoubt,
        Hey, I also have a Cloud Peak=Bighorn Mountains Solve. Wonder if we have similar ideas.

    • Hi pdenver: I’m aware of no such quote from Forrest, and I seriously doubt he would make such a restrictive statement. It would be like saying he could see grizzly bears.

      • Hello zaphod. I appreciate your response. I couldn’t find the statement in regards to bighorn sheep, although I did find where they were mentioned by a gentleman named Howard whom was speaking with Mr. Fenn during 2013. I really didn’t pay much attention to the conversation because I didn’t see them mentioned by Mr. Fenn.

      • Hi Lugnutz: that bear line from Forrest, when quoted precisely, is a hint. IMHO of course.

        • That’s my memory of the line. It maybe a clue line sure. What is the precise quote? I am looking forward to seeing how when the quote is more precise is provides a clue, and yet in my poor rendering it does not.

        • Lug: “The grizzly bears alone are something to think about.” It’s actually not that strong a hint — in fact, it could be just a coincidence, particularly since it was spoken not written.

          • That’s what I was going to say.

            It might have been planned but it didn’t seem that way.

            Seemed off the cuff.

        • What “bear line from Forrest” is this? Please tell us where it is.
          Thanks in advance.

          • was part of the nightline episode that aired before the current search season…it was the one where Cynthia and Dal went on a search together and found the deer carcass…and no box…but they interviewed FF at the end and the context was something about ‘dangerous’ areas I believe.

          • Flutter: I’ll go even further: “I’m not gonna give a clue to help people find the treasure. I’m gonna give a clue to try to keep them out of trouble. I didn’t anticipate that people would … would die searching for my treasure. But in the back of my mind it had to be logical that that could happen. Grizzly bears alone are something to think about.” — ABC News Nightline 1/12/2018

    • I would think deer. It is in a place that is “deer”, err, “dear”, to him…

    • I think Eric D has a good bead and to make his run soon. If he (or someone else ) doesn’t save me the walk, I’ll go pick it up in Sep.

    • I just got back from search #18. With all the thunderstorms this month my search area was a muddy mess. It didn’t rain on Saturday but some of the trail had been washed away and I had to hop around new ‘streams’ created by the runoff like a Gandy dancer. I ruined a pair of hiking shoes in the process. Though frustrated I still have confidence that I’m on the right track.

      • randawg;

        Sorry about the boots, and sorry you are empty-handed, but glad that you made it back safely. Glad that you still think that you are on the right track – Happy hunting next time – JDA

      • Thanks for the reminder randawg.
        I will have to buy new hikers tomorrow & have backup.
        Good to see you back safe.

    • Nice dog btw! Akita? Had one….great, great breed! Had a Shiba, too:)

      • Lingering Doubt… Yes, that was my first Akita Zeus I have a second one named Zelos… Amazing dogs!!!

  29. HELP! In the back of my mind, I remember reading something that Forrest wrote – It went something like this: As I closed the lid on Indulgence for the last time, I felt that a part of me was inside – Or something like that.

    I have searched TS and “Chasing Forrest Fenn’s words”, and can not seem to find it.

    Zap. or anyone else – can you help me? If possible, please give the source if you can find the quote. Thanks in advance – JDA

      • Thanks so much Zap. Try as I might, I just could not find it – but I suspected that you could – and you did – YEA for you!!! JDA

        • He tells it too in the EEDS Interview, JD (just before they turn Mika’s microphone on, so closer to the end)

          https://santafe.com/podcasts/forrest-fenn-treasurer-hider-author-gallery-owner-and-santa-fe-legend

          In reference to the bracelet (with the turquoise beads Wetherill found at Mesa Verde), ff says –

          “. . . it fit me perfectly, and I wanted something dear to me . . . I wanted part of me to be in that treasure chest. When I closed the lid for the last time, I told myself that some of me is in that treasure chest.”

          (It’s the kind of story he tells often in those radio show appearances, so may also appear yet again in a different version elsewhere).

          Jake

      • Hi JDA: my pleasure — one of the curses (?) of having read the book 25 times and having typed it in. Most searchers have memorized the poem — I think I’m close to memorizing TTOTC. 😉 Trying to catch up to Senator Simpson’s memorization of Alice in Wonderland…

        • I wish I had your patience, to type in the books. I am NOT a typist. I use the Columbus method – I find a key and land on it.

          It does NOT help that several of my keys have lost the printing –
          especially a,s,d and ” – Wonder why I have used these letters more than most – The D and A I can understand – but the J is not worn off ????? – also the E and O are wearing off, but that makes sense. Maybe I should buy a new keyboard, or learn to type without looking at the keyboard. JDA

          • Funny you should say key, JDA. What is not part of the treasure but is in the chest?
            The key and Forrest Fenn.
            (most would think the 20,000 word auto would be a treasure, and the jar that holds it).
            “A little of me is also in the box”.
            “KEY”.
            Like that post Jake…”that” , “some of me”. Two big hints, IMO.

  30. Someone posted about anagrams the other day, and it got me to thinking…not because I think anagrams are a part of the correct solve, but because they only used some of the letters, etc. to make a reference to Van Halen or some such (IMO) silliness. In keeping with that theme (being silly) I thought I’d try to anagram the first stanza using every letter as well as the punctuation. Here it is in all of it’s magnificence:

    How I rein along a sandy tree haven,
    I lured the bass to me
    For when I rent my old creed wand,
    I can speak chinese.

    When “anagramed” like this, it could be hinting that FF hid Indulgence in a bend on a waterway where there is a sandy bottom protected by some trees where the bass swim and can be lured in with a combination of paying the correct cost to activate a magic wand to be able to commune with said bass in a foreign language…

    Or I could just be having some fun because I am stuck contemplating several more than two.

    Hope you got a smirk out of my silliness.

    • ” . . . a bend on a waterway where there is a sandy bottom protected by some trees . . . ”

      Holy jumpin’, Bowmarc – I know exactly where that is!

      (I love me a sandy bottom, and I got the wedding license to prove it)

    • Bow –

      I am never made it to anagram camp, but those 4 lines are awesome!
      Really neat!

    • More practice as well as awareness of context will improve your results a lot, I think.

      Good luck and don’t close off the possibility that it might be the right method to help find the answers to those nine clues..

  31. Shortly after my most recent BOTG hike, the significance of the “porcupine” concept became clear to me, in more ways than one.

    One relates to the old-fashioned way of writing, using a porcupine quill as an ink pen.
    There’s an old saying . . . “The pen is mightier than the sword.”

    I believe that FF, after having been in a war, would rather wield a pen than a sword.

    All part of my opinion.

  32. For those unable to get to Yellowstone to check their solve(s), National Geographic Channel is broadcasting live from the park for 4 days starting Sunday at 7 PM. 25 cameramen covering 35 locations, including Lamar Basin and Tom Minor Basin. Maybe an epiphany will hit you right in your own living room! More from the Casper Trib below:

    https://trib.com/news/state-and-regional/national-geographic-channel-to-broadcast-live-from-yellowstone-national-park/article_a018900f-c05c-5c96-a076-912d8423e99f.html

    Shalom

  33. I Wonder how hard it was to craft a poem to a known place. Having to work with what you have. And direct someone to the chest. Having spent years and looking up things to
    not confuse some searchers. It may have flaws or not but extremely crafty. How many
    people have there own solves. IMO that is what we have to work with. Hopefully one
    day the solve will be published. How much more value than the chest will this have.
    Well nobody wants to hear my ramblings. Good Luck All…

    • Good thoughts!
      Crafty is a good word.
      I think brilliant is another good word.

      Clearly Clueless

    • Good comment, markt. But it will be extremely hard, as well, to publish the only solve without revealing the special place. First, i’ll have to work in finding it.

  34. Playing with Words is so fun!

    Here is something NEW I’ll be surprised if anyone has looked into! Not even sure how I found it but it is quite fascinating! Does it have anything to do with the poem? If it doesn’t, then at least it is a fascinating coincidence.

    “If you are brave and in the wood I give you title to the gold.”

    I looked up the word “you” in this phrase.

    Even if you are one of those folks that doesn’t believe we can use homophones, don’t quit reading, because you are going to like this!

    I wondered if there was a word that sounded like “you” but was spelled differently and had different meanings. Actually there are several, but this one has something interesting about it.

    Note that this sentence in the poem talks about “wood”. The definition of the word Yew
    from etyomonline.com is as follows

    YEW (n.)
    EVERGREEN TREE of temperate Europe and Asia, Old English iw, eow “yew,” from Proto-Germanic *iwo- (source also of Middle Dutch iwe, Dutch ijf, Old High German iwa, German Eibe, Old Norse yr), from PIE *ei-wo- (source also of Old Irish eo, Welsh ywen “yew”), perhaps a suffixed form of root *ei- (2) “reddish, motley, yellow.”

    OED says French if, Spanish iva, Medieval Latin ivus are from Germanic (and says Dutch ijf is from French); others posit a Gaulish ivos as the source of these. Lithuanian ieva likewise is said to be from Germanic. The tree symbolizes both death and immortality, being poisonous as well as long-lived. Reference to its wood as well-suited to making bows dates from c. 1400.”

    Of course I wondered about a possible connection between being brave and in the wood & the word YEW=evergreen tree (sounds like you-“I give you title to the gold” So I went a step further and looked up what type of a tree is referred to as a YEW. I find it fascinating that this tree symbolizes both death and immortality. This is particularly interesting because FF talks coming together at the great banquet table of life “where there will be no past”. Sounds like immortality to me.

    There is a reference to YEW wood making bows from c 1400.

    The bark of these trees is used to CURE SOME TYPES OF CANCER!

    And why is this wood used for making bows? Because its very strong and pliable. It is ideal for making bows!

    Now look at some of the other words in this sentence.

    “If you are brave and in the wood I give you title to the gold.”

    The word GIVE can mean “capacity for yielding to pressure,”

    Interesting to me that in this one sentence, we have the word “wood”, the word give which can mean “capacity to yield to pressure” and then we’ve got the word “yew” which is a wood that yields to pressue in order to make bows.

    This whole idea is going to require a lot more thought!

  35. Adding to what I just posted about “If you are brave and in the wood I give you title to the gold”… & the YEW tree.

    Apparently the type of YEW that is used in the treatment of certain types of cancers, is the PACIFIC YEW. This is interesting because it is the American version found in the area of our search. Also; earlier this week, I discovered that the word MEEK can mean PACIFIC.

    The Pacific YEW was once called the Graveyard Tree. . (can you picture FF sitting in a graveyard in TTOTC” Every part of the tree is poisonous excluding the red arils, although these still contain a poisonous seed. Children are highly susceptible to poisoning due to the enticing berries and livestock and pets have had a bleak history with yew. Once used for suicide during war times even food and drink vessels made from the wood of the yew could poison those who ate from them (Stewart, 2009). This historically deadly tree owes its fame to an alkaloid, specifically Taxine. This phytochemical is stored in almost every part of the tree but its red, juicy arils, and is the yews main form of defense (Bryan, 2011). Being that trees can’t move when they are attacked they have to be creative in their defense mechanisms. Although Taxine is deadly Yew also has another chemical up its sleeve, Taxane. (https://sites.evergreen.edu/plantchemeco/taxus-brevifolia/)

    “So how did the Yew go from deadly to medicinal? In 1962 the US National Cancer Institute collected plant specimens all over the country to test for any useful cancer treatment properties. The bark of T. brevifolia was found to have taxanes, a diterpene, which contains paclitaxel. This discovery was significant because paclitaxel has chemical properties that, when in the body of an animal, disrupt mitosis and acts as an antitumor treatment (Abal, 2003). Once it was found that Yew bark was a source of this new anticancer drug there was a rush to collect as much as possible putting the trees in danger of extinction.” (https://sites.evergreen.edu/plantchemeco/taxus-brevifolia/)

    Apparently, in an attempt to preserve as much of this tree as could be found, they were overharvested. Can you picture the image in TTOTC where the man is standing in a field of trees that have been all chopped down?

      • So first we take an innocent bystander like You and transform him into a wood, Yew, then we take the newly formed wood, discard it, and reverse the new word Yew to for Wey. Now that tells us a unit of measure.

        ok got it

    • I have a bit more information to add to

      Prior to determining that this Pacific Yew might cure cancer, scientists didn’t think these trees had a lot lot to offer. They were the “weeds of the forest”. That statement sure caught my eye. Reminded me of Scrapbook #73 “two acres surrounding our home are covered with beautiful bluish-purple flowers. My wife says they’re weeds and I don’t understand why. Who gets to decide what’s a weed and what’s a flower? some things that seem simple to me can be so complicated for others. I think we should take another look at our defintions. If it’s pretty, why would anyone call it a weed? That’s a derogatory term. Besides, weeds grow much faster than flowers and that’s a plus for us gardeners. I wonder if our nursery sells weed seeds.”

  36. Would anyone consider it “specialized knowledge” to know that the Firehole River is warm? Like, if all we had was the map and the poem, would we still know that the river is warm? Or does the “Fire” in the name count as “warm”? Thoughts?

    • Blue,
      I think “Fire” is enough of a clue to warm. But I think the knowledge may fall under geography and that is fair game. So I don’t think it is off limits. I also don’t think it has anything to do with the TC. IMO

    • It shouldn‘t count as special knowlege to consider Madison, Gibbon, Firehole or Yellowstone River being warm…

    • Blue,
      I think too many think everything is specialized knowledge.

      Fenn talked about ants climbing a circling on tree. lol for the life of me I have never seen this action of ants on a tree, but some assume it deals with the Coriolis effect. Nevertheless is this considered special knowledge just because many never seen or know of ants in this action?
      If by chance [ for example ] fenn handed us the solution of “making all the lines cross” in a poetic manner of “But Tarry Scant” to be a mathematical triangulation [ geometry, yet still math, and we all should now what math is ] is it considered special knowledge if our dumb butts never learned it.

      Lets take it a step further… fenn stated we need to “learn” WWH, and tells of to look at GE and/or a good map as well as a “comprehensive knowledge of geography might help”… Heck, I know quite a few who can’t read a road map, wouldn’t know of [ not even close ] any borders or boundary lines of states or counties without little lines on a map… and… what is it we need to “learn” about WWH?

      So if you happen to know something others don’t, is it specialized knowledge? Did fenn “expect everyone who is attempting the solve to have is mind and experiences?
      Will folks yell foul, because they didn’t know something about Native Americans that might be involved with a clue? or the difference of a Clovis to a Folsom point or the solstice or what the Sun dance is or melding of metals, lol some in this challenge didn’t realized the RM’s go up to the Alaska region before looking at a map of the Rockies etc etc.

      Mdavis’s question was answered [in part] ~ “I have no expectations” ~ fenn isn’t going to know what we don’t.

      I guess the real question is; how do we decipher what any knowledge is as specialized? For me that means a “comprehensive knowledge / study of subject” But that can’t be.. right? Like fenn being an “expert” in a particular artist just because he sold the artist’s painting.

      All the “information” to ‘find’ the chest is in the poem… whatIF fenn tells us what we need to ‘know of’; only we just don’t listen. “Information” that took over a decade to get “just right”

    • Blue –

      I am not aware that the waters of the Firehole River are warm.
      Are you telling me so?

      Lugnutz

      • Lugnutz, you’re kidding, right? Yes, the water in the Firehole River is warm. It comes from geysers in the Old Faithful area. In fact, continuing downstream, the water in the Madison River is still warmer than it would be otherwise for that elevation. I no longer think that’s where the treasure is, but the water can be described accurately as warm.

        • Linda

          How would you describe warm waters. Is there a rule, a universal description? Is it a matter of degrees.

          What I suspect is that you do not know:

          A. What constitutes warm waters

          B. What Fenn meant

  37. pdenver,

    Bur here. About your request from me for where Forrest commented about seeing “bighorn sheep” from his special spot. I search my notes and info I keep and I see that I have images of bighorn sheep locations in all the states and even have a page of notes where I wrote about his comment, but nothing to where he said it. I even have a email I sent Forrest and in it I discussed about his comment and the area of my search having bighorn sheep in it and that was back in the first months of 2015. I have looked somewhat online for that comment and see nothing, but maybe it was most likely in a interview or a radio conversation not something written prior to 2015. If I come across it I will get you where to help confirm my statement above. It’s out there just not sure where yet. (Must of not considered it that important at that time when I found it to not copy the source.)

    pdenver thanks for reply and question, and if anyone else come across this comment of Forrest’s your reply back with a source will be greatly appreciated.

    Bur

    • Thank you for your response, Bur. I look forward to learning more about this.

  38. Okay, I just found an old ff quote today that I did not realize existed. It was posted by Kpro on the THOR site back in Feb 2018.
    Q: Did you ever live in Colorado?
    FF: “I never lived in Colorado, not even for a few days. I bought two condos, one for my daughter to live in, and the other to rent to students. When my daughter graduated I sold both condos to another father who had a daughter going to school there. During those years my gallery was running full speed and I could not afford to be gone long. f”

    I find this quote very interesting, especially for those, like me, that have been searching in Colorado. With this quote, ff decided to provide a lot more information than what the question was asking. Why did he provide so much extra information? The parts of the quote I find most interesting are “not even for a few days” and “during those years my gallery was running full speed and I could not afford to be gone long”. To me, it sounds like ff was stating he never spent any substantive time in Colorado (maybe not even camping – i.e. ‘not even for a few days’). It also sounds like he was hinting that this was applicable at the time he made the decision about the hidey spot since he knew the spot from the time her first conceived of the idea about taking his treasure with him to the spot he would die.

    To me, this delivers a big blow to Colorado being a potential hiding spot. If he never spent much time there up to the point when he decided on the hidey spot, I am not sure how that spot could be so special to ff. Ugh! Right or wrong, I am now reluctantly crossing Colorado off my list. This has probably already been discussed earlier, but just wanted to post this in case anyone else might have missed it. Dave

    • Dave;

      You say: ” If he never spent much time there up to the point when he decided on the hidey spot,” When has Forrest ever said anything about when he decided on the spot to secret Indulgence? For all any of us know, he decided on the spot when he was a boy. Maybe not decided to hide Indulgence as a boy, but decided that this was a special spot to him. Only after having cancer did he decide on it being the spot to secret Indulgence.

      One visit to a “Special Spot” can have lasting memories. He could have gone to one spot in colorado, going to see his daughter, and IT became HIS special spot.

      I do not think it is in Colorado, but for other reasons. I would not be so quick to discount a state – JMO – JDA

      • Hi JDA,
        I think ff said something about the fact that he knew the location as soon as he conceived the idea for taking the chest with him to his death / hidey spot. I also think he had cancer right around the time he sold his gallery in Sante Fe. If you put 2 and 2 together with the quote, it sounds like the time he had his gallery he was too busy to be spending much time in Colorado…and shortly after that he had conceived the idea for hiding himself and the chest at the hidey spot. As for finding a special place in a single day or short visit, that is still entirely possible. I just think it is interesting that ff provided so much more information in this answer than what the question asked for…I do not like it because I love Colorado…but it is off my list. Dave

    • If you want something you hid to remain hidden isn’t it logical to try to make people think it’s someplace else?

      • Hi randawg, could be. I was of the belief that discussion of Colorado was excluded from from TTOTC for this very reason. Something about the way he answered that question though immediately told me he was hinting that it is not in that state. Just my instant impression from that quote. I could be wrong…but I am going to listen to my gut on this one…reluctantly…I love that state. Dave

      • Yes, but FF has said that he has never intentionally misled anyone about
        where the hidey place is.

        He does have the right, however, to change his mind. If he thinks this hunt is progressing too rapidly for his comfort, he may try to steer folks away . . . although he’s not likely to make many new friends by doing so.

        All IMO.

        • Tighterfocus: the only quote about misleading searchers I can remember -and tarryscant.com is with me- is the following:

          „Some people say I have a desire to mislead. That is not true. There are no notes to be found or safety deposit boxes to be searched. The clues can lead you to the treasure, and it will be there waiting when you arrive…“

          FF does indeed love to mislead searchers IMO, not only in his poem, but also with his answers and comments, that are ambiguous most of the time, so that the obvious meaning is misleading, but he seems to include some hidden hints quite often if not always…

          Still I‘d like to see a source for your quote… could you please enlighten me?

          • TLo,

            What I have found with F, IMO has not mislead anything to the searchers. I think its you that is looking for shortcuts because the TC is not in your hands.

            I would also say that F has been vague only, why would he say outright what the clues are? He wouldn’t and more than likely he never will.

            Just Say’n

          • This might be what tighterfo was referencing, TLo, from scrapbook 78 here on HoD –

            “I have never consciously misled any searcher or privately given a hint or clue I thought would help someone find the treasure.” ff

            (Same place also has his “I reserve the right to be wrong once in a while” comment.)

            I would suggest “playful” as the spirit in which ff sometimes engages the field (not “deceitful”).

            You know going in he’s not handing out clues, so his answers are what they are – and are almost certainly true as far as they go.

            As for hints (here, there, anywhere or everywhere), well, those’re the finders’ to do with as they will, absolutely free of charge and no strings attached.

            I’m sure he’s as amused by everybody going every which way all at once as we are ourselves.

            At least I hope so.

            Jake

          • CharlieM:

            „What I have found with F, IMO has not mislead anything to the searchers. I think its you that is looking for shortcuts because the TC is not in your hands.“

            Haha, ookaaayy!

            All I tried to ask for is a source for a quote! You ask why he should say what the clues are after I said he is hiding hints… I did not criticise FF for his ways of answering nor did I value them… I just stated the same things you say! So tell me… why get personal?

            That the chest is not in my hand is a fact, you are absolutely correct about this one, but I do not see the „shortcuts“ I am looking for!?!?!?

          • Jake: thanks for the source!

            I am 100% with you! You are describing the same thing in much kinder words!

            Back to the quote… I (personally) think he addressed a discussion where a single searcher accused him to have mislead him while he has sent correct clues/hints to others via email! So he answered to accusations he‘d not be objectiv but too subjective and selective in his personal answers, and this is quite an early stage of the chase!

            My point was that his general statements, answers and even the poem ARE misleading! Otherwise the treasure would have been found! Maybe „misleading“ is a negative word, but I did not mean to judge anything by requoting it…

    • Hi Dave from KC: further to your point, though I’m sure insufficient to dissuade people who are focused on Colorado, Forrest has confirmed he spent a good deal of time in the town nearest the treasure. Since no one to my knowledge has mentioned this little factoid before, the article that it came from last year apparently escaped most searchers’ notice. Of course “good deal of time” could be hours or months depending on the context.

      • Hello zaphod. It appears I may have missed this little bit of information about Mr. Fenn “confirming he spent a good deal of time in the town nearest the treasure.” I’ll have to check the Media Coverage page and see if I can locate this.

      • Hi Zap, I did not realize he said he spent a good deal of time in the closest town to the hidey spot. If you have that quote, could you please provide the reference? That would really seal the deal for me and get me out of Colorado. Thanks for your help. Dave

      • @zap, care to share the allusive article? Good deal of time to me means lots of combined outings over a period of years….. be a pal and kick down! lol!

        • P.S. Zap et al, guess this could be the article or reason that prompted that die hard NM searcher to bail out and suddenly start searching further up the creek! Thanks for sharing.

      • Hi Dave: I’m a bit reluctant to post a link since this story has gone unnoticed for 9 months. So I’ll do it this way: Google the following three words: Jana Bounds Fenn. You’ll find it.

        • Thanks Zap, just read it, first time I’d read about the cancer returning….not sure I trust half the writers or articles these days…..!

          • Not to mention the “other novels . . . he had time to pen” before “the cancer resurfaced in 2010.”

            I wish he could have lived to do
            the things he was attributed to

        • Thanks Zap, yep, that pretty much seals the deal for me. I appreciate it. Interesting article. Dave

          • Really?
            The only thing Forrest did confirm is that “the treasure is hidden in a place where I would not mind spending a few thousand years f”
            I don’t see anything in this article that eliminates Colorado

          • Hi Eaglesabound, I mostly decided to cross Colorado off my list based on the quote Kpro got from ff (on the THOR site – mentioned above). I could be wrong, but my instinct tells me that the extra information he provided unnecessarily in that quote was a hint that he never spent much substantive time in CO prior to getting sick and selling the gallery. You should be your own judge of that though and don’t go based on my opinion. Dave

        • Thank you for the Google search information, zaphod. I have not read this article before. Having a hard time understanding which is the truth and which is not.

        • As I repeat ad nauseam…if you read the scrapbooks and look for chestular enlightenment…and you watch the video interviews from Forrest for ideas and hints and you read his lates three books looking for information that might help you locate the chest…you’d be foolish not to check out the eight years of news stories about Forrest and the treasure hunt that are archived here on the blog…
          There is some incredibly valuable tidbits of information to be gleaned…and parsed…
          on the “Media Coverage” page.
          https://dalneitzel.com/2013/03/17/media-coverage/

          The Big Sky story was posted on the Media Coverage page just moments after it was published.

          • “There is some incredibly valuable tidbits of information to be gleaned…and parsed…
            on the “Media Coverage” page.”

            YUP!!……but as they say, “you can lead ’em to water, but ya can’t make ’em drink”……so sad.

            ‘Some’ of us do appreciate all the work you, and Goofy, have put in over the years……THANKS!!!

          • Hi Dal: an observation from a long-time visitor to your blog. The “Media Coverage” page is not linked on the blog’s home page (nor the Cheat Sheet or Fundamental Guidelines pages). Instead, it is somewhat buried toward the bottom of the “Most Important Info” page. It might be an interesting survey of some of the regulars here, but I’d be surprised if 1 in 3 of them has found it, judging from the degree of unfamiliarity with this 9-month-old story.

          • Your observation skills need some sharpening zap-
            Cheat Sheet, Fundamental Guidelines and Safety First are all rated to be “first tier importance” and so I placed links to them on tabs on every page directly beneath the header pic at the top of this and every other page…
            My mom would say “If it was a snake it would’ve bit ya”

            You are absolutely correct about Media Coverage…
            There are so many items I feel are of “second tier importance” that I lump them all under MOST IMPORTANT INFO…
            I thought that would be succinct enough to get readers to click on that menu page…

            Maybe if I changed the link to read: “FREE BEER”…

          • The BIg Sky interview has 2 “quoted” comments from Mr Fenn I’ve never seen.

            One:
            He also confirms that he spent a good deal of time in the town nearest the treasure.

            And:
            “We tried to stay off of the road,” Forrest Fenn said of that long trek with his friend. “We were middle teens when we did that trip, and we quickly ran out of candy bars. When fishermen on the Gallatin learned what we were doing they gave us food.”

            Has anyone seen these comments anyplace other than this interview?

            Thank you in advance!

          • I question if they actually heard ff correctly, I don’t know if it this is true or not: (He also confirms that he spent a good deal of time in the town nearest the treasure), I can’t imagine ff actually saying that, that seems like something that he would not say, even if true. what do you (Dal) and others think? not about whether it is true or not, but do you think ff would actually say that at this stage in the game (9 months ago) when he said he was not going to give anymore clues?

          • Hi Dal:

            “Your observation skills need some sharpening zap-”

            No, not my observation skills — my clear writing skills. When I wrote:

            “The ‘Media Coverage’ page is not linked on the blog’s home page (nor the Cheat Sheet or Fundamental Guidelines pages).”

            what my words were trying to say was that the Media Coverage page is not on the Cheat Sheet page or the Fundamental Guidelines page. (For clarity, I should have inserted the word “on” after the word “nor”.)

            I get the desire for a hierarchical structure based on importance, and as the blog operator it is entirely up to you how to rate that importance. I agree with nearly all of your orange hot links that appear on every page; I’d just rate Media Coverage higher than, say, Books by Searchers or Photos from Searchers.

            “Maybe if I changed the link to read: “FREE BEER”…”

            Okay, now you’re talking!

        • Interesting that I just read that article yesterday. There are some interesting reasons (not listed in the article) which might suggest the TC is in Big Sky Country. IMO

          • I have to agree! Have thought it since I’ve been searching since 2011.

            Page 146 drawing the man is looking up into a “Big Sky” I don’t know about you but I’ve never seen the stars as well as I have in those mountains!

        • I would like to point out that the “…he spent a good deal of time in the town nearest the treasure” comment is hearsay from the contributor and not a direct Fenn quote.

          • Randawg: yes, of course. That’s why no one would or should kill a solution based solely on one second-hand account. But like Cynthia’s post of what Forrest said regarding her home of Brown being a structure, it’s an interesting remark that should be cataloged somewhere as “potentially true” unless and until specifically refuted by Forrest.

            Who knows? A different journalist at some future date may actually quote Forrest saying something similar — as news consumers we might then have two independent sources for the same info, boosting its odds of being accurate.

      • Zap – I have to say, it’s hard for me to believe Forrest actually said that in an interview. You sure those are his words and not the words of a “journalist?”

        • Hi AtT: the words aren’t in quotation marks, though even if they were I doubt that would (or even should) convince a searcher who is focused on Colorado. I only report the information — it’s up to searchers to decide what to do with it.

          • Man!! Ya did it now, Zap!! I’ve been mentally tossing those back & forth since then.

            Gonna be interesting where this leads the giant-minds….! 🙂

            (no wash, rinse, repeat here….way to stir the pot) 🙂

          • Hi Loco: I figured with all the fires in Colorado, that state could use a “wet blanket”. 😉

          • I read the article when it came out…too open ended and not quoted to my liking to take anything of consequence from it. It does put a big fat Q on some areas(not mentioning them).

          • Ha! …nearest to the treasure. Yep, that narrows things down.

            I’m just glad he did say in “very close proximity”

            Giant Mind Thought ~ a town with population -?- living?

      • That is a heavy clue. Do we discuss the towns he has potentially spent a lot of time in?

        West Yellowstone
        Ennis
        Cody
        Santa Fe
        Taos

        • To me West Yellowstone and Cody would be the two most likely suspects of those, and in that order.

        • Lugz,
          Are they “towns”?
          LOL… this is going to be a roller coaster ride reading all the comments…

          • In describing his special spot. He says a place he
            has really fond memories of. He seems to say it
            in a way of really long time ago too. More than a memory
            of one trip. A special spot he alone went to. Probably
            near West Yellowstone. Some Mountain place?

          • Seek –

            Is worth thinking about where he may have spent time.
            I would add Lander to the list of course. And the other WY towns he has mentioned as places he stopped at to/from West.

            Lugnutz

          • Lugz,
            IMO of course, it would need to be mentioned in the book of an area or at the very least, a general area. Anything not mentioned seems like a guess as best.

            However, IF WWH is so important [ other than being the first clue to all the clues ]. Does WWH give up the location, nearest to that town, beyond all other possibilities and only from the poem?

            So, when attempting to read the poem’s clues [ deciphering them and marry them to a map ], do we or should we already know of where the clues all take place-?- beforehand.

            I look at the comment [paraphrasing] Hints in the book will help with the clues… to mean the book will help with where the clues are “located.” Yet, they may not help with each individual clue, as many seem they should.

            One thing that surprised me, that “fenn” was surprised about was; folks went right to looking at maps – comment.
            The seemed to be the most logical first step after reading the poem for the first time. My thought [ after reading the comment ] was, what map?

            LOL… there is one map that “forrestfire” mentioned that gets my attention.

          • * * * * Seek said – “One thing that surprised me, that “fenn” was surprised about was; folks went right to looking at maps – comment. The seemed to be the most logical first step after reading the poem for the first time” * * * *

            ff 02.03.2013 – “I am more than pleased with the way it has been accepted. What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots. Many have read my book multiple times looking for additional clues, or even hints that might assist them in the hunt.”

            Always seemed clear to me that what he didn’t expect was *how many people* immediately started doing exactly the right thing:

            “Excellent research materials are TOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.” ff 04.26.2014

            What surprises him?

            “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.” ff 02.04.2015

            “What surprises me is that so many ignore the first clue in the poem . . . . I doubt that anyone will find the blaze before they have figured out the first clue.” ff 05.13.2015

            “The fact that nobody’s found it I’m frankly surprised.” ff 05.18.2017

            Jake

    • Yet another case of a bad question.

      The questions should have been:

      Are you party to any land ownership in Colorado. If he responded yes, then you might see it as a boost to Colorado searchers.

      • Lugz,
        If I’m not mistaken, the question was asked and answer. As of the time of hide, fenn only owned his home [ land ] in SF.
        At one time, and I’m going by a long lost memory where, he either bought land or gave land or help buy land in WY near Cody for students [ of archeology ] to excavate.
        I almost see in my head a trailer in a pic with students in the for ground and the instructor…

        But again, the last i “recall” he owns no other properties { I want to say it was stated… in his name }

        Don’t hold anything in this post as factual… you’ll need to dig deep for that crap.

        • Seek –

          I am not going to look this up but there is an area of Colorado owned by an entity from Santa Fe. The name was something like Santa Fe Cattle co or Santa Fe Land co. and someone made a connections to Forrest.

          Complete hearsay with no evidence, or only circumstantial evidence.

          • wayne…that newspaper is from 1965. Are you saying that Fenn had an investment company in Santa Fe while he was in the Air Force…before he even moved there?

          • 1965 yeah, but it’s a Colorado Springs newspaper, ken. The Air Force Academy moved its classes there in ’58.

            Jake

          • (I don’t see what “Santa Fe Investments” has to do with that clipping, though)

          • Santa Fe Investments looks to own the property now. A Bloomberg llisted company. No link to Fenn that I can see. But they do underwrite art which I found interesting. Anyway, the main point was that there was another property that had not been mentioned with the condos.
            This isn’t part of my current solve so I thought I would share.

          • Thanks Wayne.

            None of this has any bearing on how I approach the Chase, so I’m’a leave it alone now.

            Jake

          • Ha! lugz,
            The first listing in a search found SF cattle co. a restaurant. I doubt that is what you or the other who made a connection meant, but thanks.. gonna give the place a try.

            I thought the actual name was SF one horse and cattle co. LOL I hope that is not the restaurant.

  39. Interesting quote. Colorado is not at the top of my search list but my research shows ff owned more than a pair of condos in Colorado. This may be a 85/15 situation. Good luck Dave.

    • Interesting Wayne, so he lied that he only owned the two properties in Colorado? Wow…what else did he own. That is very interesting. Dave

      • You have to factor time into the equation. You can’t just view his entire life as one moment. What is true or false at one time might not be in the future. Plus, for those worried about CO from that quote, Forrest said the only resource to trust is the book. Outside of that he could easily say something that seems to imply something that wasn’t quite correct. In my reveries I often get a few things wrong when I speak and later realize I had remembered incorrectly. Talking about my childhood memories with my parents usually results in 3 versions.

        • Hi Idle Dreamer, yea, it was just my first impression from that quote. Not sure why he added that part about being too busy with his gallery…seems like an odd thing to add when asked if he ever lived in Colorado. I might be excluding the great state of CO in error…but for now it is off my list based on this quote. Dave

          • Colorado has only been mentioned in TTOTC book a couple of times and has never given definition to search areas. It has never and will never be a search state for me. But I encourage all of you to search there. It gives me better odds&ends.

          • what page(s) mention Colorado…in any of the 3 books? I don’t recall any mentions. Preston’s forward is all I recall.

    • The video Deer is promoting is from a relatively new searcher by the name of Joe Monday. Joe received a couple of replies from Forrest in response to his email of concern about Toby’s video where he and Shelly suggest the poem can be ignored…
      Forrest apparently didn’t think much of that advice…
      Anyway…watch Joe’s video as linked above to see Forrest’s emails about Toby’s and Shelly’s advice to ignore the poem…

      • Good for Joe to show the e-mails.

        the “…thought of everything…” quote has been misrepresented by searchers attempting to shorten the quote over the years and now seems stuck in never-land as complete factual.
        But Tobey doesn’t need to be a rocket scientist to know of … all the information to find the chest is in the poem. Or the poem contains nine clues… yada yada yada.

        No matter how you attempt to twist and bend info in any attempt to solve this challenge… the poem is ‘the gold”
        Ya just can’t fix stupid, apparently.

        • I don’t think anyone has ever accused Tobey of being a rocket scientist, that’s for sure.

      • Zap,

        It was a very good video. A little long but from the heart and very sound in its reasoning and position.

        He simply stated that he believed Toby missed the balancing point between presentation of opinion and the most effective method for find the treasure.

        It was simply a rebuttal to Gypsy Kiss’s opinion regarding the impossibility of deciphering the poem and its clues, as accurately as Forrest believes they can be deciphered.

        Also I believe Toby is so deeply into the chase that it may be difficult for him to clear all the noise/information overload. And for him and Shelley this actually might be an effective strategy since they have all the pieces loaded in their minds however for new searchers this would see poor advice. IMO

        GCG

        • GCG…Toby is a great guy and Shelley seems real nice. That has nothing to do with their ability to find Fenn’s treasure. They are in the same place as all the rest of the treasure searchers…lost. There is no grandiose way of explaining that away. They are definitely dedicated…

      • It was there this morning…I watched the useful parts…
        It’s hard to keep up with people sometimes..
        Maybe someone wrote a heinous comment that Joe was unhappy about..

        Surely someone here can recreate the gist of the two points Forrest made in the emails he sent Joe..

        • There were actually three points…the last of which was, that no one is going to find the treasure w/o the poem.

          • the other two were;
            he(fenn) did not say he *wanted* the treasure to be found in 1000yrs…he said it “might” ….
            he did not say he *thought* of everything…he “tried” to think of everything.

          • Hello Mister Ken, Sir:

            You’ve done an excellent job of relating the gist of what fenn said in that email.

            If I may, with no intention whatsoever of stepping on your toes, here is copy/paste of that text:
            ……………………….
            Joe, Toby made many mistakes on that program. I’ll point out two for you. He quoted me as saying I wanted the search to last 1000 years. The actual quote is “it may last 1000 years.” He also quoted me as saying “I thought of everything.” Not so, my quote was “I tried to think of everything.” Both of his mistakes make a big difference and there are others.

            You might also quote me as saying he is totally wrong about the poem. No one will find the treasure without it. f
            ………………………………

            Now, back to your regularly scheduled programming……Thanks, ken 🙂

        • From a thread at Thor:

          https://forum.hintofriches.com/forum/the-hint-of-riches/48043-agk-toby-misquotes-from-fenn-07-27-18
          Joe, Toby made many mistakes on that program. I’ll point out two for you. He quoted me as saying I wanted the search to last 1000 years. The actual quote is “it may last 1000 years.” He also quoted me as saying “I thought of everything.” Not so, my quote was “I tried to think of everything.” Both of his mistakes make a big difference and there are others.

          You might also quote me as saying he is totally wrong about the poem. No one will find the treasure without it. f

  40. I’m not saying he lied. I’m half his age and forget things all the time. As I said, Colorado is not on the top of my list, but there is a spot that is on my list. I leave for my first BOTG in less than three weeks. I will be happy to share with you what I found concerning this when I return. I’m in STL by the way. Good luck.

    • Thanks Wayne, I agree…from the way the question is worded he would not have necessarily been lying to not discuss any other potential land ownership. Although it would seem weird to exclude it in the context of that answer. Best of luck with your search!! I would love to hear the results upon your return. Colorado is great and if you are going there it certainly is not any sort of waste of time. Nice to learn about a another search in MO. Dave

      • Dave from KC,
        FF did tell us in TTOTC that he learned that it’s important to tell the truth, but you don’t have to tell the whole truth. Does that mean that not telling the whole truth is hiding something important? Not necessarily. It just keeps people guessing and FF enjoys that. I can tell. IMO

  41. New Thread here: I am going to throw out a bone here. Ok on Pg 115 of TTOTC Tea With Olga. The drawn picture top of the page. This is the same picture that digging Gypsy pulled a set of numbers out of the clouds in the picture. I will say that the numbers she found, are published here on this site. These place is not far from the numbers she found! In this drawn picture there are 3 little lake images all three of these lakes are in close proximity of each other. I have been to the them. And they are real lakes. These lakes are here for a reason. That I will let you decide why FF put them there. There is a clue from FF and meant to be a directive. If you can find them this will give you a general search area. It is a real geographical feature that’s a real place that he has placed as a clue for us. There are no fish in the lakes! I tried…

    • That’s a helluva stretch of imagination. About as helpful as a typical “rabbit hole”. All IMO.

      • No it’s not a rabbit hole it’s a real place in the book if you don’t want to spend the time to research it fine.

      • Rightfocus wrong frame of mind…..

        Everything everything is a possibility. Bone thrown weather you bite or not bone head.

    • Travis,
      You state this information as though it is proven fact. Unless you just collected the TC, then I assume you have no basis to conclude that this information is factual. But, at least it’s keeping you entertained. IMO

      • There have been quite a few „facts“ tought by TB and it seems he burned them all on his trip without eating an adequately huge portion of Crow Masala à la Ken… now let‘s go for the next pile of new “facts“… all IMO

    • “…that he (FF) has placed as a clue for us.” TB how do you reconcile his comments that the hints in the book are SUBTLE and NOT DELIBERATELY PLACED…and that the only clues are in the poem? Appreciate that you’re pointing out something in the book that you like, but what is the point of saying something that we must figure out on our own…a real discussion would involve WHY you think it’s important, not just saying a hand drawn sketch (by the way, not drawn by FF himself) is ‘there for a reason’…giving people “a general search area” is not that helpful, IMO, its like saying you think it’s in ‘the mountains’. Good luck, care to share any of your recent vacation details?

  42. What does stanza one mean in Forrest Fenn’s poem? Here I pick up where I left off with the poem diagrams and using the poem to reference the hints in TTOTC book. Anyone who has followed the diagram and TOC videos should watch this, I pick up where I left off.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M3wvk690buk

    • Ran across this once before and then fergot all about it. Very useful resource. Thanks for the reminder, Charlie.

    • Charlie,

      Thanks for the posting. For two years, I’ve been keeping a digital map record of “published” solves and places named Brown in the Rocky Mts (among other possible items). I have posted access on more than one occasion to my maps for anyone that thinks they could be of help in their Search. Until now I have been using a USGS Geographic Place Names site to find features named Brown on published maps, but I have to admit your source has some advantages over mine. The one drawback I see is that the searcher has to click on each individual match to find its coordinates. Otherwise, this search site is very fast and easy to use.

      To date, I have plotted about 60 topographic map places including the word Brown in the four TS states. I don’t claim that this is all of the known places, but I think it is reasonably complete. So, as a check I entered a search for features named Brown in the four (maybe I missed one or two?) northern NM counties which fall within the Search area. I tried this because I have so far only been able to find one map location labeled Brown in this part of NM. A search of your lat-long site turned up one “hit” in Colfax County. I had previously found another Brown site in Colfax County which this search did not find. So now I have a total of two “officially named” features named Brown in northern NM. I bring this up for what it’s worth. There’s no reason to believe that ff intended for people to find HoB by doing an internet database search, and it’s counterintuitive to the requirement to learn what WWWH is first.

  43. What is with the candy bars again? Why would FF only take candy bars on long trips? One thing I have found interesting about FF is all the odd food he talks about eating. Candy bars, Dr. Pepper, Grapette, Meadowlark, Pie, toast with jam that was meant to be dessert. I don’t think I would have been able to make some of my off trail searches for the treasure with that kind of diet.

    • Interesting observation, Aaron.

      Wonder bread went nationwide the year ff was born (cf the expression “the greatest thing since sliced bread”). In his mid-teens, war rationing.

      Grocery stores and available groceries (and the means to distribute and store them) were very different then, especially in sparsely inhabited sections of the country. A lot more bulk items and separate ingredients, few prepared foods. No gorp, trail mix, or granola bars, no instant oatmeal or box of mac-n-cheese.

      A couple-few candy bars would be the easiest off-the-shelf solution to pocket-provisioning a quick cross-country dash (especially to a mid-teen).

      And anyway, it’s very Huck Finn – they were terrible at logistics to begin with. Don’t they immediately run out of food nearly every time they “light out for the Territory”? 😉

      Jake

      • Good point about Huck Finn. I suppose they didn’t have many healthy snacks back then but couldn’t he have at least taken an apple or banana?

    • I agree. I will say food scarcity was more of an issue in those days…

      Meadowlark:
      Lark = a merry, carefree adventure; frolic; escapade.
      = innocent or good-natured mischief; a prank.
      = something extremely easy to accomplish, succeed in, or to obtain:
      Meadow = a piece of low ground near a river

      Toast with jam…
      …that was meant to be dessert: For me, this again points to Fenn’s emphasis on the importance of imagination, not only in solving his riddle, but in one’s experience of life (like touching the George Washington painting and being transported in his mind to a different place). In this case, maybe it points to the beholding of something that looks and feels like one thing, but having the imagination to see that it is something else entirely.

      • At The Top,
        Did you know Meadowlark is Wyoming State Bird? There is also a Meadowlark Creek near Child Gulch . I’ve wondered if Meadowllark Creek is being swallowed up (eaten) by a larger body of water, just as FF says his family ate Meadowlarks for supper.. Come to think of it, the wind may also have shot at Meadowlark creek, like a Daidy Air Rifle.

        Can’t figure out the deal with Scissortails. But I think the Robin’s could anticipate the shot and duck because Robins/Robbers are wary of enemies and careful about not being discovered. Remember FF talking about a poet who was a pick pocket in one book he read. I think Robin’s relate to that.

        • Flutterby,

          I did not know that, but that is a handy piece of information. Luckily for me, Wyoming is already where my solve lands me, so this aids me with my confirmation bias 🙂

          Thanks for the info.

    • Not beer, but the Canadian Club whisky treasure hunt still has a few cases that haven’t been found (assuming you’re not a single malt purist). Currently the cases in Loch Ness, Yukon Territories, Lake Placid and at the North Pole are listed as still being out there. Sounds really easy to find, “begin it where fire waters halt”, etc.

      • Well, since whiskey “Warms the tummy” maybe you can say “Begin it where warm waters (Whiskey) halts – In your tummy HAHA 🙂 – JDA

  44. Upthread, Blue asked: “Would anyone consider it “specialized knowledge” to know that the Firehole River is warm?”
    ———————————————————————————————————
    Yes, I would. It is specialized in that without research of that area, some redneck in Texas or elsewhere would have no idea what temperature any river is. Locals, those people in Wyoming and Montana who frequent the place or live in the area, would know the Firehole River is “warm”. But to create clues known only by the locals would give those locals an advantage over outsiders. And yet …

    If the hunt was meant as a kind of thank you to the people of northern New Mexico, which possibly was FF’s original intent, then he logically could have assumed that searchers in New Mexico would know that “warm waters” refers to “special trout waters”. Therefore, “warm waters” would not be considered specialized knowledge for the audience of his book, though it would be “specialized knowledge” for people outside New Mexico.

    Just another reason to be wary of generalized verbal comments FF has made through the years.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Prediction: When the poem is solved and the solution revealed “warm waters” will turn out to have absolutely nothing to do with the New Mexico “warm waters” definition.

      • Zaphod,
        I agree. Warm waters have nothing to do with NM warm waters definition

      • Zap- I do not agree, the New Mexico version of warm waters fits every single solution to the poem to find treasure, in New Mexico.

        I think.

      • Subscribe Zap…
        Logically, why would Fenn put something in the poem that would be a very obvious way to cancel out so many other locations easily? He has gone out of his way in interviews/emails making sure not to narrow down the search radius among the four states and went back and restated anytime he realized something may have come off that way. I’m not saying he hasn’t put filters in the poem because I believe he has, but none of them are that obvious. That would be like me sending a bunch of kids on an Easter egg hunt and providing a map to show the boundaries but, on the map, I’ve circled every spot where the eggs are hid…What’s the point if it were that easy, ya know?
        All IMO

      • Zap. There is one fishing hole in Montana that required a warm water fishing permit, but now it doesn’t.

    • Ken (In Texas),

      I would have no idea – being from Texas as well – that the waters in the Firehole River were warm. This suggests, to me, that the Firehole river is not WWWH because of the “specialized knowledge”, “equal/level playing field”, and “all you need is the poem and the map” comments (paraphrasing). Additionally, Fenn says that the book contains ‘subtle’ hints – mentioning bathing in the Firehole River is a pretty overt mention of warm waters, which leads me farther away from it as my WWWH. Now, am I going to stop looking there? No, lol. However, I more and more feel that it is not the correct area – in part due to the sheet number of searchers who have tried, likely, every permutation of that spot as WWWH.

      I think I probably apply the same logic to warm waters being a New Mexico fishing term, but again, I’m not going to stop trying it unless I find something better.

      I have a couple of other ideas for WWWH but I haven’t seen anyone posting about them yet, so I think I’ll save my thoughts on those until I see another person make them public. I’m not sure if thinking of something that I haven’t seen before means I’m way off base as “several” searchers have gotten the first two clues right and just not known it, or if it means I could be on the right track. I’m having trouble going any farther than just the first clue, with most of the ideas I have – even the ones that I see on here, like the Firehole, or the Madison, etc. I feel like many common solves for “Homes of Brown”, and on down the line, are reaching pretty far – though I guess all thoughts are valid until the chest is found.

    • * * * * Ken (inTex) proposed ” . . . searchers in New Mexico would know that “warm waters” refers to “special trout waters”. Therefore, “warm waters” would not be considered specialized knowledge for the audience of his book, though it would be “specialized knowledge” for people outside New Mexico.” * * * *

      It just ain’t so, Ken (Tx)

      Warm waters vs trout waters is a well understood distinction in fly-fishing, in all four Chase states (and beyond).

      http://www.coloradofishing.net/ft_yampa.htm

      From the above:

      “The flyfishing varies as much as the terrain. The Upper Yampa holds *cold-water* species whereas *warm-water* species are found downstream at river’s end. Somewhere in-between, the two meet with opportunity to fish for trout and pike in the same river spot.”

      (“River’s end” for the Yampa is where it joins the cold water of the Green River at Steamboat Rock in Dinosaur Nat’l Monument. And the Yampa’s about as far from New Mexico as you can get in Colorado)

      (It can still be considered angler’s special-knowledge, but it ain’t just local NM special-knowledge.)

      Jake

      • Jake wrote: “Warm waters vs trout waters is a well understood distinction in fly-fishing, in all four Chase states (and beyond).”
        ———————————————————–
        So Forrest Fenn directed his treasure hunt only to fly-fishermen”?

        Pity the poor searcher who has never fished in his or her life.

        Ken (in Texas) 🙂

        • Ken in TX,
          I don’t think this chase has anything to do with fishing. I think eventually people will be surprised that Flywater has another meaning. IMO

        • No idea what ff intended, Ken (in Texas), I just pointed out that anglers’ “warm-waters” wouldn’t be a direct signpost to New Mexico.

          I’m not spending any time looking for places north of Santa Fe where trout waters begin.

          Jake

    • Ken (in Texas)

      You said, “then he logically could have assumed that searchers in New Mexico would know that “warm waters” refers to “special trout waters””.

      I simply don’t get why people think that trout are in warm water. Trout survive best in cold water. The warmer the water makes it harder for trout to survive. From Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trout. Trout are usually found in cool (50–60 °F or 10–16 °C), water.

      I’m just pointing out trout will more than likely “not be associated to warm water.” I am talking about fresh water inland, not ocean water types of trout.

      Just say’n

  45. Ken (in Texas)

    You said, “then he logically could have assumed that searchers in New Mexico would know that “warm waters” refers to “special trout waters””.

    I simply don’t get why people think that trout are in warm water. Trout survive best in cold water. The warmer the water makes it harder for trout to survive. From Wikipedia, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trout. Trout are usually found in cool (50–60 °F or 10–16 °C), water.

    I’m just pointing out trout will more than likely “not be associated to warm water.” I am talking about fresh water inland, not ocean water types of trout.

    Just say’n There will be two posts, my error

    • I think the ‘warm water’ trout thing is not that trout are in the warm water, but that where the ‘warm water’ halts or has a boundary, the cold water…where the trout are….begins.

        • I do know what halt means. In general, dictionary not needed to solve. The words in the poem say what they mean and mean what they say. A child-level grasp of english is sufficient to understand the words…more important to the solve is a childlike imagination!

          Kindly.

          • thank you lingering doubt, my thoughts exactly.
            (bird brains at work!)
            I think.

          • Lingering doubt, ~ ‘A child-level grasp of english is sufficient to understand the words…more important to the solve is a childlike imagination!’

            Really?… I mean with the many comments such as and paraphrasing; “try” and simplify the clues, worked on the poem for 15 years, looked up words and definitions of words and changed them.. to get it just right, an architect wrote the poem, and suggestions like; look up ‘several’ and see that many don’t understand the words we use everyday – ???
            This is to mean a child’s level of reading? umm I’m not sure if i can see that.

            What a do remember is fenn saying a ‘kid’ has an advantage and he gave reasons for that. Others have twisted that comment and a few others creating the idea a child can actual solve the clues and man misquotes have followed from that line of thinking.

            You said [ in part ] ~ ‘but that where the ‘warm water’ halts or has a boundary, the cold water…where the trout are….begins.’

            I read that as [ and please correct me if I read it wrong ] Halt implying a boundary; a line that marks the limits of an area [ even if a true marker line is not present ]. Ok I see where the idea is about a location that prevents or changes a situation. Example; the small town halt to the open plain, line of thinking.

            I agree with the idea that halt can and does mean a change, however, that ‘change’ involve a direction. Think of marching and being told to halt… you would come to a stop, sure, but what is happening is not so much a stop but a change to your movement / direction of movement. So, I’m having a hard time seeing halt as a type of line ; barrier ; place, line of thinking to mean ‘just’ a change from warm to cold… I’m saying that because that particular “condition” is not measurable to a location in water… it can take place over a long stretches of water. How do we get a specific place out of this thought?

            I’m curious to how a child would consider the word ‘halt’ having a possible poem’s reference to a clue to be where a fish meet warm to cold [ whatever that temperature relates to ]?

            If we’re going to think about any of this on a child’s level… don’t we need it to be something many / most children would think of and understand. LOL I hardly understand this conversation and I’m equal to six 10 yr olds.

            That idea of a child’s type of involvement with a solution to this challenge has been over exaggerated almost as much as the comment fenn ‘thought of everything’ leaving out one little three letter word “try” to think of everything.

            Just curious if you would expand your thoughts…

          • Seeker

            1. My comment above about the ‘warm waters’ was simply a response to the previous question as to why trout would be associated with warm waters…I offered that it’s not the warm waters, but rather the cold waters the trout are associated with. The fact of the matter is that ‘trout waters’…warm or cold…has nothing to do with it.

            2. I’ll keep this real simple…so that even a child would understand: Begin it Where Warm Waters Halt = It Begins Where Warm Waters Stop. No mystery here…halt means stop…easy.

            3. You write a lot of words. I’ve found that people that talk the most, have the least to say.

            4. Your posts have a pattern of asking your intended to explain, back-up, provide more, etc,…yet you don’t seem to be offering much yourself. Why is that? Don’t answer, I don’t need an explanation:)

    • Ken- Warm doesn’t refer to temperature. IMO If I came over to your house and you gave me a warm reception…..I would hope you hadn’t gone to the thermostat to turn up the heat..

      IMO
      1F Billy

      • So . . . if “warm” doesn’t refer to temperature . . . are you suggesting
        that we should think of waters as being “friendly”, “gracious”, or perhaps
        “thankful”? Or maybe “emotionally close”? Please do share your
        wisdom with us about this.

      • Sherif –

        You and I don’t see eye to eye, but I am agreeing with you on this. Warm does not refer to temperature.

        Fenn said “comfortable” I would say “welcome”.

        Lugnutz

        • Well thank you Mr. Nuts, I consider that a complement.

          Best regards to you;
          Billy

  46. Ok, nobody go get it…just racked up a bunch of credit card debt on travel arrangements to take a crack. So, if everyone who knows they have the correct solve would just wait until, like, the end of September to go I’d really, really appreciate it.

    If you don’t know that you have the correct solve, by all means continue.

    I’m not a jobless Texan w/dozen kids, but do have a quad-amputee ex (septic shock 2015) I’m trying to take care of and 3 sons to assist through college…cue the violins:)….so my need is substantial…IMO:)

    Thanks:)

    • Good luck LingeringDoubt, I hope you bring it home so we can rest mind and feet! I don’t know the violin but how ’bout a harmonica?!

    • Sooo…silence is acceptance, right? Great! All agreed…those who know, dont go until after me:)

      Eric D, you’re (or is it your?) excepted…have at it!

  47. ”If I was standing where the treasure chest is, I’d see trees, I’d see mountains, I’d see animals…..”

    There is one thing about this quote that I have been thinking of. I am probably over thinking this but would he always see animals, or just a chance at seeing animals at that time? I have run across a few animals while searching but in no way could I count on them to be there all of the time. How can he be so sure that he would see animals if he was standing in the spot of the chest at the time of the quote? If it is a great fishing spot maybe the animals he would see are fish?

    • All I know Aaron is that I have NEVER not seen animals when searching my area. Deer, elk, moose, squirrels, chipmunks. an occasional bear etc. Certainly not all at the same time, nor even on the same trip, but I have certainly seen them all at one time or another – without fail. JDA

    • From my experience, if I’m in nature, there’s usually some degree of rustling caused by animals. Not many times I can think of not seeing anything if I’m still and surveying. I don’t think Forrest meant it to be a hint or clue one way or another though…

      • Agree with that last part, TH. That description’s from a New Mexico tourism spot, so he’s a local notable being scenic for a large audience – Come to Beautiful New Mexico, You’ll Find Treasures of All Kinds.

        Jake

    • “If I was standing where the treasure chest is, I’d see trees, I’d see mountains, and I know the treasure chest is wet”

      Where do you get animals in that quote?

      Franklin

      • Franklin what you typed is not the entire quote. Here is the entire quote:

        , “If I was standing where the treasure chest is, I’d see trees, I’d see mountains, I’d see animals. I’d smell wonderful smells of pine needles, or pinyon nuts, sagebrush—and I know the treasure chest is wet. Well you’ve asked me a lot of questions and some of them—most of them I answered, a few I haven’t, but I’ve got to tell you—there’s one thing I told you I wish I had not.” f Does this help? – A little research would have answered the question for yourself – JDA

      • Never mind, sorry. I found the complete quote where he mentioned animals, and that the chest is wet. Trees, mountains, animals, birds, etc.

        But at any given moment, there might not be animals in the area. He has been there many times, and was recollecting seeing animals there. I also see many animals every time I go searching.

        It’s not a big clue unless it is hidden next to a ZOO

        IMHO

        Franklin

        • Jake

          It’s so interesting listening to him. I had forgotten this one, but I did listen and watch it before. I love his way of telling stories and talking about the TC.

          I’m still seeking – Franklin

          • I don’t know why we are listening to this video today but I will offer an observation.

            In the Cody museum video from 2006 we see the genesis of the Fenn biography. By the time we get to the NM Tourism vidoe he has it nailed down.

            Temple Texas, married my treasure Peggy, air force, bad tour, shot down twice, moved to the only place I knew of hush puppies

    • He means eventually, if he was standing there long enough. It’s like the lobby
      of the Empire State building. If you stand there long enough, eventually
      somebody will walk in carrying a couple of mice in a parakeet cage. Or
      something like that. It’s definitely not a clue, and it’s not much of a hint, either. I’d ignore it. All IMO.

    • What if we could see ‘things’ named after animals (e. g. Bear Lake, Goat Mountain, Mallard Creek)?

      “I tend to use some words that aren’t in the dictionary, and others that are, I bend a little.” (TTOTC Preface, pg. 4)

      Perhaps this doesn’t qualify as bending a definition, but it may be a conceptual twist. Is that Forrest’s implication? Of course, given a majestic enough perspective on a clear day, it seems unlikely we would not see some geographic features named after animals. But that may not be the point. It’s possible F is providing another tidbit of information to serve as a descriptor of his special place. We can only guess…

      Joe

      • Joe,

        Thank you for brining up the following quote from TTOTC.
        ““I tend to use some words that aren’t in the dictionary, and others that are, I bend a little.” (TTOTC Preface, pg. 4)”

        I am curious as to how others interpret this quote. What does everyone think this means? Words that aren’t in the dictionary? I’ve got one solution. I think “treasures bold” actually means treasures bowled”

        Would love opinions on this quote.

  48. Hi Dal: here’s an old video that Davio22 just put up on YouTube yesterday that you can add to your Media Page. It’s a 45-minute interview that Forrest gave in Cody probably a decade ago:

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Te6bt8upY

    Cynthia has linked it on her site (which is how I originally found it).

    • But I’d come home once a year, I’d come to the Buffalo Bill on my way to Yellowstone.
      That’s it…
      I’m packing my bags & getting out there ASAP.
      Color Red aint going to bleed F’s gold.

    • Wow Zap, thanks, great stuff. So in 2006 he was going to that area (Cody) “about 4 times per year” and he said “I always go to Yellowstone”. He also said…”My heart was always in Yellowstone”. I liked when the interviewer asked him what he had planned for the rest of his life at age 76…he gave a smile and chuckle….and there was definitely a sparkle in his eye….he had big things planned back in 2006. What a rascal! Dave

    • Did he say he spent many hours in coalxxxx Denver?
      Glad it wasn’t more than that.
      He did spend time in Denver which is not in the Rockies but a city near the search highlighted map area in TFTW.
      Interesting but not enough to pull me away from Yellow area.

    • In context of today, we don’t understand those things and It’s not fair to judge people in a era that you don’t know that you didn’t live through.

      Great words of wisdom.

  49. I don’t think that wwh has any thing to do with fish -to me its just where warm water meets the cold water to me its a clue of a place where warm water mixes in with the cold – I don’t think theres any fish where both waters meet

  50. Why did Fenn go to BORDER’S in his first story ( ImportantLiterature ) in TTOTC? Why not Barnes and Noble?

    • DeerX5- going to Border’s is a hint to a BOOK written by Ned Buntline…”Buffalo Bill King of the Bordermen”
      that’s why, I think.

    • DeerX5 – If he’d gone to Barnes and Noble’s, you’d wonder why he didn’t go to Borders or Walden.

      Leave it alone, you’ll put your eye out, kid. 😉

      • I don’t think there was ever a Barnes and Noble store or Waldens Books in Santa Fe.

        • B&N, probably yes.

          Waldenbooks though was bought out by Borders (nationwide, so wasn’t an actual alternative), and then that whole business collapsed in 2011/2012.

  51. Charlie wrote: “I simply don’t get why people think that trout are in warm water”
    ——————————————————————————————————-
    Charlie, most people probably do understand that trout exist in cold water. But in the context of this treasure hunt, there is a difference between “trout waters” that you infer, and “Special Trout Waters” (STWs), in New Mexico.

    One can fish for trout in a lot of streams in northern NM. But only certain parts of certain streams are designated STWs, by the NM Department of Game and Fish. As an example of an STW, here’s the verbiage quoted directly from the Game And Fish Dept.’s website, describing the precise location of an STW: “The Cimarron River … from the east end of Tolby Campground downstream 1.4 miles, to the first U.S. Hwy. 64 bridge”. There are a lot more of these precise STWs in northern NM, and a few in southern NM.

    These STWs are managed specifically to enhance trout populations, and are based on water temperature. So for FF’s WWH phrase, one could say that the location along Cimarron River where relatively warm water ends and thus where a designated STW begins, is a place where warm waters halt.

    But would that information about the Cimarron River be specialized knowledge? Of course it would, to searchers who are not fishermen and have no way of knowing that these STWs even exist. Yet, to fly fishermen, especially those in New Mexico, these STWs are common knowledge.

    Back to the original question asked by Blue : Would anyone consider it “specialized knowledge” to know that the Firehole River is warm”.

    As with the STWs in NM, my answer would be yes. Knowing that the Firehole River is warm would indeed be specialized knowledge, because people not from that area or those who do not frequently go to that area would have no way of knowing the Firehole’s temperature is warmer, relative to other rivers in the Rocky Mountains. These people would have to do research on the Firehole to find that factoid. And as with the STW example from NM, Fenn himself, based on his experience there as a boy, might consider that this temperature factoid about the Firehole is common knowledge. If so, he would be wrong.

    As a result of these two examples I’m not so sure that FF’s comments about “specialized knowledge” can be taken at face value. Depending on the situation and specific location, some information that FF, himself, considers common knowledge may indeed be “specialized” to some searchers and thus require research by them.

    If his original intent in hiding the treasure was to thank the people around Santa Fe, then he (FF) might not consider STWs specialized knowledge, thus rendering these STWs as potential warm waters halt.

    Hence, it is risky to take at face value these overly generalized verbal comments FF has made through the years, not just those comments about “specialized knowledge” but all comments wherein he has made sweeping generalizations.

    Ken (in Texas)

  52. Better late than never, I suppose. (I’m almost a month behind on the blog.) This may have been “talked out” by now her on HOD, but this article was passed along to me by someone that knew I was somewhat involved in the search. https://www.wired.com/story/forrest-fenn-treasure-online-mystery/

    So many entry points to discussion from the article, but I was very pleasantly surprised and pleased to see that Mr. Fenn generously sent some money so the family could travel to find out what really happened. Hats off to you sir! You are a man worthy of respect.

  53. Howdy Folks!
    I finally got around to buying myself a copy of “Once Upon a While” and reading through it. I think it is interesting which selections from this blog that Forrest chose to include, and what changes he made between the blog postings and the final version in the book. Here’s a quick-reference guide that I made as to what chapters in the the book correspond to which postings on this blog (or at least as close as I could determine):

    Supplemental Punishment – Scrapbook 86
    The Long Jump – Scrapbook 89
    Sweet Fragrances – Scrapbook 49
    And Education from Stanley – Scrapbook 147
    The Loom of the Desert – Passages 2
    Me and Little Beaver – Vignette (same name)
    Shelling Corn – Scrapbook 91
    Experiences with Joe – Scrapbook 82
    Glory is Never Enough – Scrapbook 100
    Explosion on 3rd Street – Scrapbook 125
    Divorce Logic – Scrapbook 166
    Once in a While I Do Something Right – Scrapbook 170
    Annabella’s Hat – Vignette (same name)
    I Never Go Shopping, But…. – Scrapbook 46
    The Unfortunate Hiccup – Scrapbook 180
    In a Tuck – Scrapbook 128
    Rainy Night Blessings – Scrapbook 169
    The Quahada Chief on a Black Pony – Scrapbook 174
    Prince of the Comancheros – Scrapbook 173
    Montana Golden – Scrapbook 118
    Remnants of the Past – Scrapbook 117
    Things I Covet – Vignette “Palettes”
    Well, Here’s Moses – Vignette (same name)
    Salute to a Warrior – Scrapbook 93 (also SB65 & more throughout blog)
    The Iron Rooster of Santa Fe County – Scrapbook 175
    Lessons from Forrest – Scrapbook 183
    Memories that Never Die – Scrapbook 90
    Me and Mummy Joe – Scrapbook 92
    Algernon’s Relative – Passages 3
    Cultures on Top of Cultures – Vignette “Prehistoric Thoughts”
    The Evolution of My Art Opinion – Scrapbook 105
    Doug Hyde in Stone – Scrapbook 181
    Apaches in the Garage – Vignette “John Bullis”
    Me and Michael Douglas – Scrapbook 81
    Is It My Candy Ann? – Scrapbook 164
    The Graciella Experience – Scrapbook 178
    Partying with Suzanne Somers – Scrapbook 56
    The Bullet Comes Home – Scrapbook 145
    The Price of Freedom – Passages 4

    Have fun with this and happy hunting!

      • Yup. It seemed odd that there wasn’t a category for this book already. Under what heading was this folder area filed under on the blog? I had looked under “Searchers’ Discussions” but did not see it listed there.

      • Hi Blex: it’s new enough (Dal just created it) that he may not have provided a link to it yet under “Searchers Discussion”. Likewise, at the same time he created the OUAW folder, he created one for TFTW.

  54. P48 – Scalding water, deep canyons, and Brown gravy all within 4 lines of each other. Has anyone ever worked in a kitchen and would giant kettles for brown gravy really smell bad? Or is there a possibility that the giant kettles are a reference to “Mud Pots” at Yellowstone?

    Mudpots: Mudpots such as Fountain Paint Pots are acidic hot springs with a limited water supply. Some microorganisms use hydrogen sulfide (rotten egg smell), which rises from deep within the earth, as an energy source. They convert the gas into sulfuric acid, which breaks down rock into clay.

    • Argillite – If he wanted to reference the mudpots at Yellowstone for some reason, why couldn’t he just have included a story that had the mudpots at Yellowstone in it?

      Not sure what I’m missing . . . ?

      Jake

      • Hello J A Kraven. Close your eyes and imagine the kitchen scene as described in the chapter. Can one compare this to a geographical location?

      • Hi Jake,

        (If he wrote a story about WWWH I’m still looking for it.)

        I’m still stuck on that rabbit-holing with that ‘looking for hints in the book that’ll catch up in my brain thing’ (I know you told me that it would result in hours/days/months of researching for nought but it seems to be where I’m at). So, the hot water/deep canyons/brown gravy thing all within 4 lines of each other on P48 kinda looked like part of the poem ‘warm water’/’canyon’ down a line/then something brown inside something else. The statement that the “smell truly assaulted my sensitivities” didn’t look right, gravy isn’t offensive it’s wonderful. Mmmmm gravy. So maybe he’s hinting at something else? And this is what I came up with (and here’s where I need you to tell me if I have un-diagnosed schizophrenia, lol). Giant kettles of brown gravy that smell abnormally foul combined with a huge helping of imagination made me think of the stinking sulfurous mud pots. Kettle/pot, gravy/mud, smell/sulfur and since the gravy was brown this became my home of Brown. Now that you made me type that out it sounds crazy, like an aberration that lives out on the edge.

        I’ve been trying to confirmation bias the Artist Paint Pots into a solve, perhaps I ‘overcooked’ that gravy.

        • Argillite: I’ll take rotten-egg mudpots over brown gravy any day. I can’t stand gravy — easiest way to ruin mashed potatoes.

          • Thanks, any help with the schizophrenia diagnosis? Is this one just too far out there?

          • Argillite: I wouldn’t diagnosis it as schizophrenia — just a case of standard Fennatical pattern recognition. It is an “ailment” to be nurtured. As you point out, you’ve got scalding water, deep canyons and brown gravy in book-order within a few lines, cross-referenced against warm waters, canyon down, and home of Brown. People who don’t appreciate the parallels are probably at a disadvantage trying to solve the poem.

  55. Are there any biologist who can help me with this question? The chest appears to contain wood, under what conditions could it be wet, not submerged, and not subject to mildew?

    -The treasure chest is not under water
    -You will find no mildew in the treasure chest.
    -physics tells me the treasure is wet

    • ARG,

      Mildew and mold only grow in warm acidic environments

      If temperatures run below 55 deg. and the environment is slightly caustic then mildew and molds are rare.

      Limestone areas typically are slightly caustic in the presence of water…

      GCG

    • Argillite-
      your first two entries use the words “treasure chest” indicating bronze box in which case those two entries make sense.

      the third entry uses just the word “treasure” and in order for that entry to make sense you must use the “great outdoors” definition of treasure.
      two different things. word usage is important.
      I think.

    • If it has no paper in it, it probably won’t have mildew. In fact, I think that’s why Forrest said he removed the paper money that was in the chest originally.
      As to being wet, I think it has to do with the properties of bronze. Bronze is very favorable to condensation because of the large temperature changes that the bronze would go through daily and it’s rapid heat transfer characteristics. If it’s in an area with some moist air, the chest would almost certainly have condensation on it, especially on the inside.

  56. From the recent SFReporter article “…And be sure you take somebody with you…”

    I’m having trouble reconciling that statement with this one: If you have a searching partner, best to have them wait in the car.f (Posted October 7th, 2016 – MW)

    Anyone have any theories? Are they acting as a lookout ready to honk the horn? Is there something in the chest that is best claimed by a single person?

    • You can park less than a mile from the chest. If you bring someone, they could go with you or remain where parked.

    • Argillite,
      Many have attempted what fenn has stated about the partner and a car… the searching with a partner seems to imply a safety measure, a suggestion, more than a hint or a clue.

      Then again, one of my thoughts relate to a possibly that the hidey spot is only large enough for one to get to or be at.
      I draw the idea to some of the words within the poem to mean different meanings than most like them to be.
      Examples; Creek can mean a narrow passage. Yes normally with water involved but not necessarily.
      Look quickly down could imply [ duck or bend ] such as a tight, smaller or narrow spot to enter.
      Even the idea a kid could have an advantage [ please refer to the full comment ] being smaller, agile, lol just younger and has more flexibility … than some of us who live with snow on the roof.

      So I can see fenn suggesting to leave our partner in the car to wittily saying… one sizes fits all but not all can fit.

      Just a thought……

      • Thanks Seeker, my Searching Partner will be relieved to know he can come along. If it’s a tight squeeze I’m sending him in.
        It may all become clear if I can find the right place to be.

    • How long should you leave a friend waiting in a car while you conduct business?
      One hour, or maybe 2? I think this Fenn comment is referring to the travel time to and from the hidey spot, not for safety concerns or space limitations.
      IMO.

    • Maybe by Searching Partner he wasn’t talking about the trip to the hidey-spot? Maybe he was just making a joke that if you have a “Searching Partner” i.e. a spouse with wandering eyes or similar, then best to leave them out of the joys of finding the treasure or “have them wait in the car” metaphorically?
      Anyways unless a reason becomes evident at the scene I’ll let my BOTG partner out of the hot car and able to join in the fun of hiking, fishing, seeing moose, etc.
      Thanks for the help everyone.

    • Could be another safety comment.

      If you both go in without the treasure maybe only one comes out with the treasure. Remember Treasure of the Sierra Madre?

  57. ARG,

    Forrest relegates most of his “serious” comments to the area of safety.

    The comment about searching with a partner is a good safety practice.

    However though other comment comes from Searcher websites which offer things like; words from Forrest, quotes from Forrest and questions for Forrest (and more) – Anyway these replies or information from Forrest are “part of the chase” meaning Forrest may or may not be providing some kind of “hint.”

    I take this comment as a hint and he doesn’t mean it as literally as his comments aimed at keeping searchers safe. Therefore it’s up to you to interpret what Forrest might be hinting about.

    For me, this quote regarding your partner staying in the car basically means the distance from where you park the vehicle to where the treasure is hidden isn’t a long distance. Additional ideas include:
    1) Legally there should be one finder and one owner
    2) The space where the treasure is located can only accommodate one person
    3) The car is parked somewhere where its important to leave someone with the vehicle (its illegal, its timed, its private property, your going to make two trips so you need a guard, etc…)

    GCG

    • Anyone at anytime can retrieve the treasure with or without a partner.

      No one hear is doing that.

      What they are doing is searching fort he treasure. That can be dangerous and so you should not do so alone.

      Retrieving vs searching.

  58. There are at least five reasons to have a search “assistant” remain in or at the car.
    1. To maintain radio contact with you via hand-held (walkie-talkie) radio and to request help (by whatever means) if you run into trouble.
    2. To guard the car during your trip(s} to retrieve or search for the chest.
    3. To legally limit the “finder” to one person (unless you have a binding agreement with your fellow searcher.
    4. To act as a casual tourist enjoying the wilderness in order to deflect other searchers attention from your search area. Fishing poles might be a fitting prop.
    5. To have hot coffee ready for you when you return all cold and wet.

    Just thinking.

    • Thanks Adrian, I have to confess to the fishing “dress like the hound” disguise. I think it makes me far less conspicuous going off trail. Plus when your at a nice stretch of water it would be a shame not to stretch a line.

    • Adrian: I’ll add a 6th reason — perhaps your “searching partner” is a dog. There are places an adult can get to easily and safely that would not be possible for a dog.

      • Adrian: ditto mine. Thankfully, the only time my dog accompanied me on a trip was in May this past year, and at my search location temperature was not an issue.

    • You’ll get it alright.
      No hard feelings Travis.
      I wish you safety & good luck.
      Your kinda getting a late start.

      • Thank you Jake I appreciate that honestly. Going to be camping out tonight up on the hill

      • I agree completely. Someday this has to end so we can all move on.

        But I’m being very careful this time to not too too much crow.

  59. Sherif Billy on July 9, 2018 at 8:24 pm said:

    The sherif busted his knee moving the Deputy into her new diggins near minnehaha falls in Minnesota . Had surgery at Mayo and is supposed to me non-weight bearing for three months. I guess I’ll be playing canasta for a bit.

    Best regards to all

    1 F Billy

    Sorry to hear of your Canasta causing injury.

    Where you located? I’m on the North side of the twin cities.

  60. Borders was in the shopping center (Plaza Santa Fe II) parking lot located at Zafarano and Cerrillos.

    • Can’t imagine that it matters, but this was their second location. First was in that Sambusco Market a few blocks west of the Plaza, north of the Railyard. I do know that it could be raining at one of these locations and not at the other one. They both stocked Hemingway and Salinger.

  61. Thanks for the info aardv… I see that the Sanbusco store closed first, followed by the Zafarano store about 1 year later (2012 ish).

    Regardless, they were both open when he wrote his memoirs!

    I think that FF would have gone to the Sanbusco store, as it was in closer proximaty (sic) to his home!

    –Fennatical

  62. Why do I not have a note on where the statement is from, “How deep is a hole?” Can someone please enlighten me on where this question came from?

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