Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixty Four


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636 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixty Four

  1. Seeker

    From previous page.

    You have solved all the clues followed them and are at the spot. How long does it take to search for it at the spot. That was the gist of the question I thought I read.

    I don’t need to know what others think as everyone has a different idea but I am almost certain he answers a question like this. Or I’m just hearing voices again.


    • What a great question. I can’t say I have read all of Mr. Fenn’s answers to questions but, in all the answers I have read I do not recall this one. I would love to hear from him on this but I fear we will not.

      My interpretation of the poem is that it may take some time to find the blaze but after that you should retrieve the chest quickly and leave quietly.

      • It would just answer the question as to if the poem tells you how the chest is hidden, buried which ever it is.

        I swear he answered a few hours but like I said I’m probably hearing voices.

          • I have spent the last 8 years living in Alaska if that’s what you are asking. Though I don’t live there currently.

        • Ronald,
          We have been told that FF hide the chest in two trips in an afternoon. Can’t imagine that if we have the clues solved in advance, that we could not collect it in the same amount of time it took to hide it. That is just my opinion.

          • something bald, something blue, something old, something new, keep moving from the hob to find the crossing that the meek cant go he he ho ho. off to the mountains i go. good day all you treasure hunters and hiders. how about those gliders

    • I am not sure he has answered that specific question, but he has said, “Second, I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.” (June 2014)

      So, be prepared to do a search grid of your final location at that level of resolution.


    • Ken- from the previous odds and ends…
      ~It is not like Fenn has been crystal clear *how* to decipher his poem *precisely*. He has commented on his knack for thumbing his nose at the conventional ways of writing and saying things…and even intentional misuse of words and purposely misspelling. His latest comment about punctuation even adds fuel to the fire. I believe it is possible to use the *given/written* word in the poem…and still arrive at another possible meaning… w/o crossing the line in the sand defined by his *don’t mess with my poem* comment. Like you said Seeker….it is a poem.~

      In Flutterby’s example, she didn’t change a ‘possible meaning’ she changed a word; where to wear, by using wear as a sound like word. The entire meaning/usage of “where” disappears.
      While “wear” can have a usage of eroded /erosion [ looking at it from a geographical concept ] “Where” has no such reference… and we have fenn saying; every word was deliberate [ in the poem ].
      While a poem gives the author freedom… a supposedly straightforward poem using sound like words and meanings of different words, is more of a guessing game / code / cipher by any sense of the idea… working on a hunch.

      Honestly, that doesn’t seem like, “I tend to use words that aren’t in the dictionary, and the others that are, I bend a little”… line of thinking, and more like kicking it off the playing field.
      I would think the idea of not messing with the poem [like changing halt to balk [which rhymes better with walk] being a no no { even though both words can mean ‘change in motion’} ] …the same should apply to any word, right?

      My suggestion / post was more in-lines with what we all have read in ATF’s for a rebuttable of an idea [ from flutterby ].

      Each word was deliberate.
      Took many years [ 15 ] to prefect it the way he wanted.
      Says, don’t mess with my poem.
      The poem is straightforwards.

      Conventional writings or not, fenn has implied in different ATF’s the poem is straightforward, that he’s not out to fool anyone. How in the world can a word just be replaced, that doesn’t even come close to the word’s meaning it sounds like that is being change?

      LOL… maybe it’s just me. I just don’t see the idea of; ‘any’ idea / solve is a good idea/solve until the chest is found, line of thinking.
      I might as well be looking for the chest hanging is a tree, or discarded trash, a tire with crap glued to it, or think hoB is Molly Brown’s house… if we simply don’t bother with the ATFs at all to help keep the idea of tangents at a reasonable thought process.

      The idea of stating an opinion always comes with the opportunity for a comment / reply… I just happen to think about that reply with what we have been suggested to think about [AFT’s from fenn].
      It may not make my reply correct, but I hope it shows ‘ I thought about the original post ‘ and not simply blurt out; not in my solve…
      And you’re right. fenn hasn’t made it crystal clear.. lol.. if he did, we would be here chatting about it all.

      • Yo Seeker…I realize your post was specific as to completely changing a poem word…which does indeed seem to not fit the program. My comment may have been less than specific….so let’s redirect here.
        Just for example…..let’s say that the first clue, BIWWWH, IS a place(where), and once identified correctly, the inquisitive searcher realizes that particular place ALSO fits the bill for a different rendering of where/wear/ware/weir ? Is it coincidence? Does this violate the ATF rule book? Or is it intentional by the poem writer? This in no way exemplifies how I have come to read the poem…but with options ever open…it is possible to think this *idea* is valid…and really does not fall into the *any idea* category you mention. yes/no? The poem is a riddle that needs to be figured out…and riddles nearly always have a *twist* or two before thinking the write things.

        • Ken,
          Your comment raises what may be a valid point: Forrest has stated there are nine clues, but does that mean there is only a single interpretation and subsequent deduction for each clue?

          Perhaps a valid question, but it does complicate matters a bit.


          • joe…my comment was a *what if* type idea. Perhaps a correctly deciphered clue(as singular) morphs into another avenue of thought(thinking) to lead contiguously to the next clue by way of a play on a word from the previous. This fits the profile of *looking up* words and realizing that some do not always mean what we assume. *Straight forward* is subjective…especially when offered by the person who knows the answer/s.

          • Ken,
            I understand, and this was the context for my response/question above. “What if” scenarios should be, IMO, a part of each searcher’s repertoire when attempting to intepret and deduce the poem.

            The most difficult element of The Chase, IMO, is what we believe is or was Forrest’s intent at our presumed key points in the poem. The evolution of that belief, or lack thereof, will be very influential.

            My opinion only.

          • Nicely put Joe…and I agree that bias and closed opinions/ideas w/o regard to possibilities may shade the true path to success. The poem has finally been described as a *riddle* by the man that composed it…which begs to question why it took so long for him to back track and say that after saying it wasn’t in another earlier comment. These are the anomalies I focus on mostly. Thanks for your input…

        • Ken,
          Not barking, I just think the idea of ‘ violate the ATF rule book’ is off.
          We know there’s not a rule book for ATF’s as far as solving the clues.
          We have them, and attempt to use them to keep the tangents at bay. I use the term check and balance, but even that is not truly accurate. That also seems to imply a ‘need’ rather than the idea of thought.
          You said~ … fits the bill for a different rendering of where/wear/ware/weir ?
          I like the idea, whether right or wrong. It give pause to think of the word ‘where’ as time related [ a meaning of the word ] to a clue and means something else in a time period of that clue, line of thinking. But for that Idea to take root… wouldn’t the poem ‘need’ to be read two completely different ways with subbing different words? {I also assume it could / should be done for all the words, and not just pick and choose}
          For example; where WWH today be of WWH wear [ as erosion ] in the past.. and using the idea [ as an example ] a glacier’s action of carving a canyon and melt runoff, resulting in what is today, the point of ‘where’ we begin… as the result of the old /past [ when the glacier action wear /erode the location to its present condition.]

          Like I said… I read flutterby post and gave thought to it… but when we do have thoughts from ATF’s [not rules] from the one who created, no matter how we can wiggle around ideas to make them work for a solve, don’t we need to stay within the ideas/thoughts of those ATF’s?

          Some ATF’s I listed above, one in particular talked about changing words [ regardless of how well it might work in our personal solve ].
          IF fenn never stated a structure is not a associated with the chest… a building would still be in play, right? But it would be wrong, even if we think it worked for our solve. If someone was looking for the chest in the mountains N. of SF in Pennsylvania or California… they be wrong as well… but only factual by having the ATF’s know of.

          It’s a grey area, I agree. But to jump away / side step from them twist them into a pretzel… don’t we still need to think of; probability vs. possibility?
          Even a WhatIF need boundaries… not unlike the map presented to us to say; if you are looking for the ‘chest’ outside this area, you’re never going to find it… right? And Canada ‘all of the sudden’ went Poof.
          Call the ATF rules, guidelines, fundamental thinking, or anything else… only they do give us a type of boundary to think about.
          When we start coining phrases like ‘Quote Police’ or say fenn only tells ‘85%’ of the truth’ etc. are we not diminishing the information of the past 8 years, just to make our theories work ‘any’ possible way?

          I like flutterby… she is a thinker and analyzes the heck out of it all… but her post didn’t explain how we can get around the [again, for lack of a better term’] boundaries of thought [the ATF].

          • Sure…*rule book* may be a bit brash…however, there have been many comments that totally nix the idea of utilizing ATF and subsequent comments by same with supporting quotes for another topic/thread. This shouts out that there is no clear unbiased utilization. There are few concrete facts to draw upon…so regardless of interpretation, I believe the ATF are very important for various reasons. The diminishing comments I take with a grain of salt…and believe they are only given in response for lack of something less self-serving in nature to share. Not everyone is going to agree with everything posted.
            If the given *words* in the poem are utilized to decipher a clue…and the result of that leads to an alternate and appropriate meaning that then ties/leads to the next clue…how/why would it be necessary to definitively read it two ways? The *what if* scenario was presented by Fenn…and I believe may have been a nudge to pay more attention to the obvious…rather than looking too far out there.

          • Ken.
            I agree whole heartily with what you just said.
            You stated ~’I believe the ATF are very important for various reasons.’

            That’s what I meant about the grey area. It’s just as difficult, some times, to figure out what the ATF’s seem to be implying… and one reason I personally don’t allow myself to be glued to a single ATF without attempting to reasonably have other ATF’s workable in the same manner.
            LOL a check and balance idea of the check and balance approach.

            So for example; should “wear” be utilized and to mean erosion during the glacial period and beyond, as my “example” in the other post… we still need to considered the idea of; many WWH and nearly all are N. of SF, line of thinking.
            If “wear” only works for that clue that is only North of… wear can’t be correct… *when* we get to the ‘fine tuning’ of a WhatIF thought.

            All I’m saying is; any idea should meet, but not over take, the information we have available to ‘consider or with consideration’ for a correct solve.
            At some point ~ fine tuning is needed…[I consider the ATFs helpful in that part, as long as we’re honest with our results] then / before botg to test the theory.

            So, the thought of a WhatIF should be more “probable” [most likely] vs. “possible” [a hunch]… idea… when thinking about ATF’s as helpful.

          • Ken,
            I should add, this is why chatting on a blog with others who are involved with the chase is a good thing.
            Just say ‘good job’ to anyone ideas is not really helpful… but rebutting, debating, discussing information we have, may help that Idea of a ‘good job’ bud into flower of a ‘good probability factor.’

          • If *where* resolves/satisfies/deciphers/finalizes that clue…what would be the problem with then realizing/learning/ discovering/figuring out that place was created by wear/erosion…or another alternative? I am not subscribing to that notion in the least…but this scenario does seem to fit the *layered* notions others have pointed out over the years….and certainly plays to the idea that Fenn *looks* up words and suggests that others should as well. Call it the *box step* if you want.

          • Ken IF changing one word is a possibility, than all 166 words in the poem should act in the same method, example change blaze to fire. If that suggestion was offered for those words, would they be probable? Are we looking for a fire to at, that would ‘obviously’ show us the distance of where the chest is at-?- while thinking of an ATF that basically said; the blaze could be removed, but it’s not feasible to do so.

            I would think that if a method is usable, it wouldn’t be for only a single small part of a sentence within a stanza, in a four stanza poem having 166 words.

            While the first thought of ‘wear to where’ was ok to think about it… don’t we need a process to see if it’s even plausible? [as my poor example of blaze vs. fire shows.. poor because it’s not a sound-a-like word]
            That is what I was attempting do do with Flutterby post… analyzing how it could work… But all the information we have received kept raising red flags.

            We’re [ you and I ] thinking along the same line of whatIF. Only I take that thinking to a point of actuality, fine tuning probability and possibles etc.
            “wear” worked great for my glacial solve, but died a horrible death when looking at other ATFs that couldn’t align with the method of changing words… not unlike my glacial solve.

            We may never get an answer to this conversation… but the chatter raises/provokes thought. LOL that is one reason I read flutterby post, she leaves no stone upturned.. but not every stone will produce something… it may just be mud underneath, but always worth the peak. Um I mean peek.

        • This weekend, I’ve been contemplating a completely different approach to the Chase. I think you might be almost correct o a point here.

          I don’t think the poem *is* a riddle, but I think it may *contain* a riddle. The poem also contains the key to finding the riddle, because it isn’t just a straight section of text.

          So, understand the poem as it sits. Find the key. Unlock the riddle. Answer the riddle. Apply the answer back to the original poem. Map all this to physical locations. Go get Indulgence.

          As if I needed any more “potential solves” at this point. I really need to simplify. 🙂

    • Ronald ~’I don’t need to know what others think as everyone has a different idea but…’

      OK… and you’re not the first to say something like that. I’m just wondering, if so, why post a thought, comment, idea, theory, suggestions or anything else if you’re not interested [you used ‘need’] to hear other’s idea about what you posted.
      Or am I misunderstanding what your saying?

      I think you might have combined two questions I presented into one. If I recall the conversation correctly.
      For clarification, and if you want to respond that’s up to you…

      ~How long [ in your solve ] does it take to go through all the clues, [lets say] up to the blaze?
      ~How long to ‘you’ think it would take you to find the chest itself, after all the clues to the blaze?

      • I’m of a firm belief that it will take a good deal of time to edge out the ‘blaze’.

        Close only counts….

      • I was just wondering if anyone remembered a Q/A that was close to what I was describing. And I thanked those who responded in kind.

        Other folks added there opinion about how long and how to search. I just stated that is not what I was looking for because it’s not. If I had wanted to know that I would have asked for it and I didn’t, so I don’t need to know. Refer to the original question I asked. If you did not understand it that is fine also. I found what I was looking for so thanks. That’s all.

        Have a good weekend.

        • The above comment that starts “I was just wondering” was a response to Seeker, not anyone else.


        • I had to go back to the original post to get my bearings stretch.

          Ronald ~’It was something to the effect of, once you get to the treasure location how long would it take to search the area and find it?’

          What I didn’t understand was; if you meant the “treasure location” as the ‘hide spot only’ or the ‘route of the clues’

          LOL then it fell apart from there.
          My question[s] wasn’t about your solve or process… but about helping to find an ATF that related to your inquiry… to know which was implied, would help in locating a possible related comment.

          Anyways; You said you are going on a search [today?]… I don’t wish others good luck… so break a leg. [insert smiley face].

          • Seeker,

            You seem to hang strongly onto ATF’s and have a large effect with the outcome of a good solve. In the beginning F said something to the effect, all you need is the book and the poem married to a map. Lets for a moment say the ATF’s & Q&A’s where not there, could one find the TC?

            Just as when people read something there are different interpretations of what is being read. Don’t get me wrong ATF’s etc.. do help, but at the same time muddies the waters, so to speak. F has said to simplify, to mean to simplify what is being said in the poem. Could it also mean to not overly complicate the process with ATF’s, etc. Straightforward is the poem’s language when F said something to the effect, the poem is straightforward.

            Yet again F said something along the lines as don’t mess with his poem. To me he is saying don’t mess with the structure and don’t change the words meaning. Up above the debate with the word “where” to mean possibly “wear” is changing the word, which I feel is messing with the poem.

            Yep, I did use ATF’s these are important, but at the same time not possibly necessary, after all the book, poem and a good map is all one needs to find the TC.

            I guess everything is debatable because when we listen and read, generally the line of thinking is different when things are vague.

            I would argue almost every time when the lines in the poem is moved and when words are changed with different spellings to create meanings that are completely different.

            I had to put my 2 cents in and
            Just Say’n

      • ~How long [ in your solve ] does it take to go through all the clues, [lets say] up to the blaze?

        From my WWWH to the HOB is roughly 17 miles, then from there it takes me about 15 minutes to hike to my blaze. Total time approximately 30 minutes. If you add up the total distance from WWWH to my spot is approximately 20 miles, give or take a foot.

        ~How long do ‘you’ think it would take you to find the chest itself, after all the clues to the blaze?

        My solve takes me within feet of the area I believe Indulgence to be, 1 minute to search. If it’s not the right spot, 1 hour to search.

        Good luck!

        • I’m sorry, I misread that second question, the treasure is not at the blaze, there’s more beyond that point of the poem. IMO

  2. Yep – Very clear… Punctuation and grammar matter. I feel bad for those who can’t read, but such is life, I tried to help.

    • IMO,
      It’s going to be someone that doesn’t read well that will find the treasure, knowing rules just complicates things.

    • Why Must I go [on]

      That last word is automatically added to all post – its just ironic given you current halting in on line video content…

      Regardless though – your content is solid and very interesting so as far as I’m concerned I don’t want you to stop – I think you were or are very successful at doing exactly what you set out to do and that was provide unique and interesting content that other online searchers are not!

      Bravo to you,


      • To be honest, the audience is not worth my time. The bad apples (such as those on Thor) ruined it for everyone.

  3. First sentences are so important (i.e., Holden Caufiled, pg 13) …. so I was pondering that first sentence… ‘AS I HAVE GONE ALONE IN THERE.’ … and I thought, He-Who-Goes-Alone might be a good Indian name for Forrest.

    I began poking around synonyms, antonyms, Indian lore, etc. for “goes alone” … hermit, recluse, troglodyte, solomentarian, etc. & I asked Google: “He who goes alone,” and she replied: “The man who goes alone can start today, but he who travels with another must wait until the other is ready.” (Henry David Thoreau,) And I thought ‘Wow! How good is that?’ Our man of confidence went alone, but he thoughtfully left us ‘others’ a poem to catch up.

    I never read Walden (Doonsbury was as close as I got), but because their cabins in the woods were so alike, FF’s & HDT’s, I read on. Some of you might want to read a bit on these two remarkable men. (Don’t miss the NYT article 7/10/2017. Poignantly current IMO)

  4. The thread got cut off before I could reply, but this is for Lugnutz & Seeker.

    I don’t appreciate the attitude towards my post because I support a different point of view than you. I am just trying to share my experiences and they just so happen to align with Zaphod’s.

    To answer your questions – How do I judge myself as one to help “guide” you in the right direction? About a year and a half ago, I found this blog. I didn’t post – I read everything I could and immersed myself in the chase. I had an idea in my head about places that fit the clues. One day while reading a thread, I read an interaction between three posters that got my attention. It discussed a different way of looking at the clues. It perked my interest and I filed it away. After researching other armchair treasure hunts as the post had mentioned, I understood a different way of approaching the poem. It took me over a year, even using what I believe is the right approach, to get my brain to get out of its own way and see what was there.

    Thank you for explaining to me that Zap has the propensity to tell others that they aren’t on the right path. I am not worried about that, as I am positive we are in agreement about the first two clues. I will not post my solution to the first two clues, because I don’t have a complete solution yet.

    What I will tell you is that I read a lot of posts on this blog. I read all of the archived posts, and got a feel for the general state of what people were looking for. I caught onto Zaphod’s posts about 2 years ago, and I tended to connect with how he explained what he had discovered so far. About 2 months after I started monitoring the blog, Zaphod mentioned that he had found a “word that is key” in the first stanza. A short time later, another poster posted that they had found a key word that completely changed how they approached the poem, and lo and behold, this poster found it in the first stanza. Zaphod commented on the post with a cryptic question about WWWH (remember, we are talking key word here), which was met with a cryptic reply and they made arrangements to discuss it privately. What caught my attention was that two people, completely independent of each other, happened to find the exact same thing, that worked in the exact same way, to find what they then both determined was WWWH – Without knowing each other until they saw each others posts on this blog. That is highly improbable based on how many people view this website, and that was what really caught my interest.

    I thought about how they mind have found that word, and I commented on some posts asking some probing questions, but this idea was just a WAG until Zaphod mentioned that the word that is key is a word IN the poem, but not one of the words OF the poem. This basically cemented that I was following in the same path as him.

    Until someone claims that chest, I can’t prove anything to you. What I can do is give you a look into alternative, new ways that a massive treasure hunt like this could be solved.

    • Imajin

      The word that Zap and HMA found had been found and discussed at lenght years before.

      I have begged them to allow me to share those previous discussions with them. They continue to speak not only cryptically, meaning in the borng code we all discovered in the Hardy Boys at 11 yrs old, but also in a way that talks down to us.

      Do you know which Lena Horn Brim is? Do you know who Mable Dodge is? They are nobody, but their names get spelled out at times and so discussions begin. What you can do is say “I believe WWWH is Fraser Colorado”. Then maybe someone has been there or done that or maybe someone wants to discuss it.

      But when you don’t say where you are looking OR what your thinking process is I don’t see how you can say your are nudging anyone closer. I don’t nudge anyone closer, I knock down ideas that don’t fit the puzzle in my opinion.

      I also share where I am searching and why. There is no reason not to. If you share your TC location on this blog and som one goes out to get it, I owe you one treasure.

      Google Fraser

        • Lugnutz,
          That is the first solve put together by someone else that I managed to read all the way through. Usually I give up about the second paragraph because people get really off track and forget that we are supposed to be following the poem.

          I have to say that I think this guy had a few things right. He did get side-tracked by extra information from his research. I’m intrigued by his connection to Meeteetse. He used an anagram to get himself there. That is odd because FF has said there are no anagrams-hasn’t he? But, wait! I think what he actually said was that you don’t need an anagram. That is not the same thing as there are no anagrams. And that is signficant because I know he drops small hints in both his writing and the photos. I believe a lot of it is to drive us insane trying to figure out some simple thing that doesn’t matter. One example of this is that I have discovered (I think) that one of the drawings in one of the books contains what I believe to be FFs drivers license number imbedded in it. I don’t think we need his drivers license number, but when you realize that is what it is, it is very funny because it fits so well with the story. I can picture him chuckling to himself when he told the artist to include this information. I love the humor in it. This is assuming that he actually told the artist to include this info.

          But, back to the solve link you posted. I actually managed to read through this one and some parts of it made sense. Not because it was arrived at with an anagram, but in spite of the fact that it was arrived at with an anagram. Is it like the drivers license number being embedded into a drawing and it makes the story all that more funny? Maybe Meeteetse embedded in an anagram isn’t needed to solve the poem, but does add to the intrigue of the actual poem solve. Here is what I mean. I also have a solve that involves Meeteetse, but not for the same reasons. I arrived there by following the words in the poem. This guy arrived there with an anagram. But, I’m not sure he understood why the poem led him there. Maybe he is there because of an apparition embedded in the poem and he doesn’t understand the reason he is there. It could be a distraction that keeps you from seeing the forest for the trees.

          I think he had a couple of other things right also but he didn’t know why they were right IMO. So I’m intrigued by the connections he drew that got him there and I find it fascinating that he could have so many connections to the same places I arrived at by following the poem. Yet I didn’t have all the background info he had that led him there.

          So that has got my attention!

      • I once asked a co-worker that if I drew a detailed map to where I think the treasure is would he go look for it and he said absolutely not.
        The fact is I don’t want to share my search area. While you say “There is no reason not to”, I say “There is no reason to”. Why chance it?
        Many of us have a solid (to us) search zone and we guard the location like an old gold prospector guarding his claim.
        That ‘one in a million’ chance that somebody else might get there first is still a chance and that’s a risk I don’t need to take.

        • PS: Can I get a written and notarized document stating that: “If you share your TC location on this blog and som one goes out to get it, I owe you one treasure.” ?

          • I’m sure you could get a document, written by a lawyer, that’s legally infallible. Or at least infallible until someone hires a more expensive lawyer to challenge it.

        • Randawg –

          Its in Montana
          Its in Wyoming
          Its in Colorado
          Its in New Mexico
          Its in the Rockies

          Oh just in case Bob is right, it’s in Santa Fe, in Fenn’s safe.
          There now you owe me half right?


          • When you look at the poem and it discusses Riches new and old……old riches really tells me a history of gold mining . Which States does this point to? Montana and Wyoming? Do they really have a long history of gold mining? New Mexico and gold mining?

      • Lug-
        Mable Dodge Luhan is an historical patron of the arts in Taos and an important character to those who follow the Taos/Enchanted Circle narrative and use it to try to solve the poem. She is also an important historical figure that most likely would have played a role in the unwritten Forrest Fenn book he has mentioned titled “Closet Stories”. She was also a contemporary of Arthur Manby and some have suggested was responsible for his death…all of this plays out in many of the solutions having to do with Taos and Forrest’s short lived gallery there. This solution is not as popular as it was years ago…but still has its followers.

        • Hi Dal –

          I have spent a lot of time reading about the Taos artists, patrons and city founders. It’s all really fascinating to me. The history of several buildings, the sacred lakes, the churches, the architecture of the churches, it’s all fascinating.

          If you are referring to my comment to Imagin I was pointng out that once we start anagramming or steganography-ing these names come out. We draw them out. It just doesn’t mean they mean anything specific tot he clues.

          When I get out to NM my main goal is to get Forrest up to the Taos Inn for dinner! Um, with a stop at a certain historical building where a clue lies!

          Also if you feel like I crossed a line with youknowwho today I apologize.

      • Lugnutz: wrong. The word has NOT been discussed as a solution to “a word that is key” on this blog. You pretend I’m not aware of the posts that predate me here. I have read them ALL. All half-million plus. Have you?

        • I don’t follow all blogs. If it wasn’t mentioned here or Stephanie’s, all bets are off. And if it HAS been mentioned on another blog, it was probably a guess without any substance, otherwise it would have cross-pollenated to every other blog.

          • Personal opinion – BOTH of you are wrong in whatever you think it is – But I have been wrong far more than right – 🙂 JDA

          • Hi JD –

            To be clear.
            I do not think there is a keyword.
            Zap thinks there is a keyword.

            We cannot both be wrong.

            But the bigger point of the conversation is that Zap did not participate int he earlier blogs and discussions. When Zap first came to HoD I told him I could send him a link so that he could read other solves in the area he is interested in. He hasn’t done that because he thinks that even though none of us are smart enough to figure out the location for which he has 199 hints, if he revealed even one aspect of that solve one of us would rush out and grab it! Which begs the question. Why hasn’t he retrieved the TC? I suspect I will learn more in the off season.

            Belated be safe to you!

          • Lugnutz: furthermore, I have a full-time job and a life. I live over 1000 miles from where the treasure chest is hidden, so I don’t have the luxury of searching whenever I feel like it.

            As for past MT solutions, if you sent me a link once upon a while, I don’t remember it (not saying you didn’t). I have no objection or resistance to checking out past failed solutions, but don’t for a minute pretend you know that one of them uses my keyword, let alone my WWWH. It’s highly unlikely on either score.

          • Zap –

            You are conflating Searching with Retrieving.

            I didn’t ask why you haven’t searched for the treasure.

            I am surprised you still think no one early on used your WWH. I mean, they must have in order to come within 200 feet.

            I am fascinated to learn how your brain works.

            Since you are out there, it’s not what the mountains say, it’s what they whisper.

            Have fun!

          • Lug;

            You say: ” You are conflating Searching with Retrieving.” – For this old guy, truer words were never spoken. I will have to find it, since most of my search team are busy with “Start of school year” things. IF I find her, I will NOT be able to retrieve her. I will have to tell my team I have found her, and we will then see how many can come to help take her away from where she has slumbered for 8 years – JDA

          • JD –

            If you ever get around to it, I will look forward to reading about your clues and how they marry to the map or geography.

            F has mentioned that folks have gone right by the treasure after having deciphered the first clue(s). In your case, you might go past the treasure 3 times!

            You probably should not go out alone, but I am not telling you anything you don’t already know.

          • Hi Lug;

            You missed the latest. Yesterday I posted that I now (then) took two laps through the poem. After posting that, with some prodding from Seeker, I found a way to solve the riddles with ONLY ONE LAP!!! WOW, I am finally reading it as Forrest meant it to be read – I think. Am anxious to put BotG to try it out – JDA

          • Lugnutz,

            If you want my solve for Fraser shoot me your Email address and you can have it. Someone else with the same ideas could probably walk the direct route right to it.

      • Lugnutz,

        I was just in Fraser for the past week. 4th time I have been there in the past year. I have been lucky in that I worked in that area some time ago and know it well. I always feel like I am going home when I get into the mountains and ridges there.

  5. I hope Dal won’t mind if I give a plug for Jenny’s new book, Armchair Treasure Hunts.
    Fantastic job Jenny! I really enjoy doing the little ciphers and puzzles throughout the chapters.
    I especially like that you included the Q & A’s from the 2013 thru 2018. It’s funny the things I have forgotten !
    At the end of the forward by Forrest, there’s a small cipher. I think there’s definitely a hint there.
    Does anyone else think so?

  6. Hi All;

    Well, I now know of at least two places that Indulgence is NOT! Tess (my wife) and I made a trip to my search area. Tess stayed in the car, and I searched where I thought it was – wrong again. Re-evaluated one more time, and now have one new idea. I guess I just do not know how to give up on my area – So, I am looking forward to trip #22 sometime in the near future – Still Smilin’ 🙂 JDA

    • Funny, I was going to post a few minutes ago “Where’s JDA, did he slip out the backdoor to do another search?”

      That poor horse.

    • JDA…good for you to get back out there. Maybe time to reevaluate ? I have started fresh a few times and it is not a bad thing to do. Who knows….

    • JDA,
      You are tenacious, in a clinging way… but it reminds me of the idea of; the grass is greener on the other side of the fence. It really isn’t. It just a different view.

      I think when fenn implied; if you didn’t find the chest to go back to the first clue, to mean, keep going back to the same spot… as much as, think more about the clue itself, than the spot you are at.

      Just a thought.

      • Seeker;

        You are probably right – The view from “The other side” of the fence may be the same, but maybe that is where I need to be – On the other side. Am now thinking about just such a spot.

        BIWWWH – YUP need to find a new place where WWHalted – JDA

        • JDA, If you were commissioned to sculpt a statue, or perhaps a totem, symbolic of these past years of Chase, what would it look like?

          • OS2;

            Interesting question. At age 76, most of my sculpting days are over. How can one sculpt “Fulfillment?” I have found the chase SOOOO
            fulfilling on SOOOO many levels. It has satisfied my quest to keep my brain active. It has taken me to a place in Wyoming that is “A piece of heaven”. It has brought me closer to members of my family. It has introduced me to “friends” that I have met online. It has made me laugh. It has made me cry.

            Fulfilling – YUP that’s the word.

            Yesterday Tess and I saw 7 momma Rocky Mountain sheep, and three babies. How cool is that? Maybe that would be what I would sculpt – Thanks for asking – JDA

    • JD

      Have you seen watched Jenny’s new video about Fs forward of her book?

      She reads some great quotes from Forrest. The What If comment from Forrest, to me, implies that chasers are focusing what further away and neglecting what’s right beside them.

      You seem so confident that I can believe you have figured something out. I can even believe you are in the right area, maybe have the correct starting place.

      Maybe your path is too long? To much physical distance?


        • I got to get in one of those simulators that airline pilots practice in with 6 degrees of motion, I decided I wanted to see what it felt like to crash an airliner on take off, so full left rudder, full right yolk then left yolk after I was up about 100 ft, since I was so close to the ground the visual effect was …. interesting, and the feeling was immediately recognizable; scared me so much that I immediately straightened it out. nope… don’t want to see what it feels like.

      • Lugnutz,
        Interesting comment about Forrest implying that searchers are looking at far away ideas and not seeing what is right beside them. Did you see my post a few minutes ago, commenting on a solve link that was posted? I stated that I believed the searcher may have some ideas correct about the right solve, but in my opinion, he arrived there because of an apparition (an anagram in the poem). I also have a solve that puts me there but not because of an anagram, but because the poem took me there. So is it possible that there are apparitions hidden that are distracting people, so that they can arrive at the right spot following the apparition but can’t get any further because they don’t understand why it is the right spot? IMO some appartions keep us from seeing the Forest for the Trees.

        • Flutter –

          I think that what Forrest tells us about chasers that begin correctly but cannot locate the chest.

          They identify the first clue or first two. They may be at the correct starting location. Some have been close to the TC.

          But they all miss something. My theory is that people are distracted by the words in the poem that form clues like take it in the canyon and too far to walk. They are on the right track and then they leave it or go right past the treasure.

          I wouldn’t go anywhere from the start. I would stay their and look for additional clues. I haven’t always thought this way. This is where I am at now.


    • JDA, remember Border’s. You might be closer to it where you live now, than where you think it is? Look at what is beside you. ( latest Fenn speak )

    • JDA, I’ve always said to myself ehen I arrived back at my car….”dissapointed but not defeated”. Nice effort.young man!! I tip my hat to you…

        • JDA,

          Maybe, I need to write more, so I can be looked upon as being wise and take a lot of botgs on the ground.

          Just kidding, but you do have tenacity, I’ll give you that.

        • JDA,
          If some have gotten the first two clues correct and then walked past the other seven clues which Forrest has stated has happened. Seems to me that it’s possible to be in the CORRECT area and still need to solve some more clues to find “indulgence”.
          Only you know your area and your solution. Don’t let others persuade you to give up too soon.
          Hang in there my friend.


          • Thanks Kanafire. As long as I learn something each trip, I will keep at it. I was at a place that I thought It might be. I looked at the view (which was nada) and said to myself, “Forrest would never want to spend eternity here, when around me in other spots, is some of the most beautiful scenery one can imagine.” I climbed out of the “hole” that I was in, climbed to the top of a beautiful knoll and said, “Now this is more like it.” Looking across the way – I saw something that seemed to click.

            I tucked this memory away, got off of the mountain and came home.

            Once home, I evaluated this new spot against the poem, and things that I have learned through the books and ATF comments. I looked at on maps and on Google Earth – It is looking good. Can’t wait to try one more time. Thanks – JDA

          • You look like a big grey haired carrot with that orange shirt.
            With sunglasses.
            Just serving you a little crow….
            LOL 🙂

            You can’t find it if you don’t go, you know…

    • JDA- I admire your tenacity! At least you are getting out there and looking. Next adventure loading…

  7. We’ll Guy’s,

    That is me all booked up for my next BOTG trip to the Rockies for next year, same solve, same place.

    Bring on 2019

    Stay safe guy’s

    Ronnie the Scot

    • YEA for you Ronnie. Bring the wife this time 🙂 Hope it is a refundable ticket – Forrest’s get feeling still might come true – 🙂 JDA

    • Ronnie,
      To book a trip that far ahead to search for F’s treasure is crazy.
      That tin badge needs to be polished.

    • Ronnie: don’t book anything non-refundable until the 2018 search season is over. There’s still a chance that Forrest’s stomach will take another jag toward 2018 success.

      • Zap –

        Just a quick check here.
        Do yo think you know why he used the word GUT?
        we were just discussing this sort of thing the other day, you and I were.

        • I have a theory, but it’s pretty confirmation bias-y and not able to be shared at the moment.

          Perhaps when I get around to writing up my solve.

        • Lug & Zap,
          I don’t know what the two of you were discussing about the word GUT. But, personally I think it was a hint and not a real belief that the treasure chest will be found this summer. IMO

          • Not sure I agree – I DO feel that it will be found soon – Maybe sooner than some think – 🙂 JMO – JDA

          • IMO gut doesn’t jump out as a hint, just a common expression. We might as well be devoting time to the word choice feeling as to gut.

            “I am rarely told exactly where people are searching so I don’t know if they are getting closer or not. My gut feeling is that someone will find it this summer.” MW – February 4, 2018

            Mentioned again because he was asked specifically about his gut feeling:
            “My gut feeling is wavering.” MW – June 28, 2018

            I don’t suppose Forrest wants us to get our PhD’s in physics and understand Grand Unified Theory but if I had to link them in some way I’d do it this way:
            from wiki – “GUT models which aim to be completely realistic are quite complicated, even compared to the Standard Model, because they need to introduce additional fields and interactions, or even additional dimensions of space.” links with P.98 “…took me to another dimension in my mind…” Again, not something I’m working on, just in case anyone is hung up on GUT and wants another dimension to it.

          • Flutter –

            That’s ok we don’t know what we are talking about either.

            I think Gut Feeling is a reference to a specific chaser. Subsequently it is that chaser that is wavering in belief and not Forrest.


          • JDA: “I DO feel that it will be found soon”

            What makes you feel it will be found soon JDA?

    • Glad to hear you are going to give it another go, Ronnie the Scot. I thought it was awesome that you just took off and didn’t tell everyone where you were going. Can’t wait to hear about your trip next year.

    • Ronnie,

      I dunno…risky business maybe (booking that far out). IMO

      I’m thinking now that that there Leeroy feller is gonna beat ya
      to it. He’s a real fart smeller dontcha know and iffn he can
      find some tires and wheels for that pick em up truck look out!
      He’s already got a metal detector and I bet he’s got a Georgia
      Credit Card too. So all he’ll need then is a backhoe and he
      don’t seem too worried ’bout dat either. Yeah, I think that
      Treasure Chest is just about as good as gone…

      so I hope it’s a refundable ticket. Don’t tell the wife and good
      luck anyway, whatever comes.


  8. Quality is more important than quantity.
    Quality is in the poem and quantity is in the ATF’s.
    The middle ground is in TTOTC and TFTW.

    Not a fact for you but only me.

  9. On my way back from my first BOTG.
    Searched areas and visits:
    Saltpeter Mtn/Dawson NM
    Zapata Falls/Great Sand Dunes CO
    Denver Museum
    Glenwood Springs
    West Yellowstone (city of)
    Beaver Creek
    Refuge Point
    Quake Lake
    Horse Butte Tower
    Isa Lake

    I have done it tired and now I’m weak.

    • Just curious Wayne,
      Do all those places have the exact say references for the clues?
      Is your WWH deciphered reference the same exact for all the states / places?? hoB? Blaze? etc.

      • Seeker-Variations
        For instance, Saltpeter is a riddle solve. It literally cools warm water for a temporary period, in a wood casket, as well as being a highly flammable blaze source. It’s presence is detected by a brown ring test, it exists on pg 70 of TTOTC above the brave war hymn, written in warm colors, with the word halt, in wavy lines. And the elemental descriptor is KNO. Basically, I could match 9 clues to it so it was worth a look.

        Now, I do not waver on the answer as it has become clear.

        • The answer[s] was not what I was looking for.
          I was curious to each search area having the same deciphered clues or different representations of any clue for different areas.

          It would seem to me if areas can be ‘predetermined’ the clues references should be the same for all areas… regardless of NM, WY, CO, MT… a correct solve seemingly must have the correct deciphering for predetermining to happen.

          With that said; I was wondering if each site was determined by using the same clue references, or were there changes / different references for each search site.
          Example; All the hoB are of the color brown, or all of the HLnWH are a lake or whatever.

          • Hi Seeker;

            As you know, I now take either two or three trips through the poem. As of today – Late last night as a matter of fact – I now take two trips – not three.

            Anyway – My hoB (as an example) is different in each of the two laps as are all of the other clues – none are EXACTLY the same. A couple pretty close, but different. Just rattlin’ JDA

          • JDA,
            What/where in the poem explains two different places for each of the 9 clues…? [now only making 18 clues in your solve]
            I mean, If there is a reason for following clues twice… I would think that we would follow the clues 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9, to the blaze, and maybe see it from there… we return near/nigh where we started and find the chest. Or maybe from HLnW back to the blaze, idea… Not so much two trips, but the angle/view needed to see where the chest is hidden.
            Basically the blaze is near the first clue, but only seen from the second to last clue, line of thinking.

            “Not far, but too far two walk”… might not have anything to do with an unknown distance, but a clue that may be saying; it’s too far to walk [for following the clues] because the chest is ‘not far’ from where you start in the poem and in the field.
            But ya ‘have to/must follow the clues’ to know where the blaze / hidey spot is.

            Kinda interpreting the idea as; Not far, but unfortunately too far to walk to be wise/see and found the blaze.

            In this case, wise can mean; know what you need to do, and even, like an owl, we have a look backwards.

            This is not switching back, as much as, the need to “look /observe” back. The clues do take you back… the blaze simply point you to the chest by being at it and observing…[ which might be where everyone started from and walked by the chest, and all seven remaining clues.]

            I just don’t get the idea of 18 clues.
            I’d love to have an update on how many to this date have told fenn where WWH is. 10 – 20- 50- 100?

          • Seeker;

            The actual solve requires only one trip – IF you start at the correct WWWH. My problem is how do you get to the correct WWWH.

            I COULD just say that I picked my WWWH out of thin air and started there – and that would be OK.

            I prefer to start at another (to me) more logical WWWH place and use the poem to get me to my final WWWH place. Probably not necessary to do it this way, but it makes sense to me.

            Just the way my old brain works.

            I can see where one COULD follow my original (first lap) clues through “The end is ever drawing nigh.” then jump to my second lap – “There’ll be no paddle up your creek …” – etc of lap #2 and finish the poem out. Quite possible. I will give it a bit more thought.

            You may have just shined some light into one of the dark corners of my noggin. What will I do if I can get two neurons working instead of just one.

            Maybe all I needed was a “Jump start” 🙂 JDA

          • I really like the logic in your statement, “In this case, wise can mean; know what you need to do, and even, like an owl, we have a look backwards.” I would actually say both likely apply imo.

  10. JDA -Eight days, non-stop. It was easier because exact areas had been pre-determined; however, the walking adds up. The driving is an entirely different story.
    At least I have enough re-con now to know where to fly into next time.

    • That first recon is waay more valuable than i ever thought it would be too. I came home with no treasure and a quiver lip but now i see what needs to be done on the next boondoggle.

  11. What if The treasure is not burried, but below The Walter? “Not far, but too far to walk”, meaning you can’t walk in there, you need to swim. Also, “look quickly down” and “your effort Will be worth The cold”. It also says, “The end is ever drawning night”, may mean It is Deep under The water, and you should look for The “glaze”. Finally, when sayng at least somebody was as near as 250ft, It may be he or she was above The treasure, while going through a River.

  12. Hi Guy’s,

    Thanks for your concern regarding me booking my next trip to the Rockies in 2019.

    As I have booked so far in advance I only needed to put down a small deposit, as long as I pay the full amount three months before the time.

    If the T.C is found this summer, then I would only loose the small deposit.

    Based on Forrest’s gut feeling to his most recent hunch comment I do not think that Indulgence will be found this summer IMO.

    I do however think again IMO that based on Forrest’s more recent comments over the last six months or so that it’s now just a matter of time before the T.C is found.

    My gut feeling is it will be found within the next 24 months.

    Stay safe and good luck to all on the chase.

    Ronnie the Scot

    • Hi Ronnie;

      Glad that IF it is found soon, that you will lose only a small amount – ’cause my gut feels the same as Forrest’s – It WILL be found soon – Where’s the Malox honey? Darn gut! 🙂 JDA

    • I’m thinking it will be found this or next year, too, Ronnie. More specifically, I think f will be offering more frequent clues/hints to help ensure it.

      I was in town the last weekend for Indian Market, which is one of SF’s greatest draws. Attended a handful of charity fund raising events for various causes (common during the event since so many are in town) and visited the galleries. Neither the Chase nor f were ever mentioned.

      After Nedra removed his name from the gallery a few years ago, I think his name recognition locally has been declining. Neither of the two waiters serving a large group I was in at Pink Adobe knew who he was. Even while loitering around Collected Works a couple of times, I never overheard any mention of Chase or f.

      I think he wants it found before his passing in order to ensure a legacy and to confirm its truth (much as a President or Senator in our nation wants to be remembered by a certain piece of legislation).

      I think we can expect more frequent more enlightening clues/hints from f.

      My opinion only.

      • Aardvarkbark –

        If you take a look at the historical, (historic?) record, meaning, read the blogs from past winters, people say this every year.

        Just this past winter there was a staggering amount of chatter claiming Fenn wanted the treasure found and he was accelerating the hints!

        The same thing happened the winter before that.

        Also, it’s a little morbid to talk about Fenn’s death. The man seems to be in good health and he is sharp as a door-nail!

      • I hope you are right about giving more hints, but IMO he won’t.
        If I had hidden it I would like to be around when it was found, but FF has repeatedly said that it does not matter to him. For one, when it is found all the talk and excitement will end- I don’t see any of the blogs or news conferences lasting more than a few weeks. All long as it is NOT found all the talk and hunting will continue. Just my opinion of course

        • I concur. I will not presume to know what goes through Forrest’s mind. (If I did know, I’d walk straight to the chest.) But I suspect he may be of two thoughts on the matter. On one hand, I’m sure he is curious to see what kind of person can manage to unravel this challenge he has given us. Who can best his best? On the other hand, I believe there is a large part of him that would like to see the Chase outlive him and go on to become a thing of American Legend. (There is no doubt he has earned his asterisk in the history books already, regardless of the Chase.)

          Will he continue to offer hints? I have no idea. If it amuses him to do so, maybe he will. But if he tires of the hints, or if he thinks people are starting to get close, he may decide to just clam up, grab a Baby Ruth and a grape soda, and watch how events unfold. His right, either way.

          I am content to just take what has been offered and work with that. In the end, all you really need is the poem and a good map. 🙂

  13. Here’s my take:
    The word that is key is stone. As in keystone, as in gemstone, as in waters.
    WHY is it. That I must go. Use your imagination.
    Or should I say rotation.


    • there is a very strong connection between the word that is key quote and the actual word that is key. imagination is great but i think when it takes us so far away from the poem that our “key word” cant be found in the poem, we may be overthinking something.

    • the word “THAT” is key. It’s in the poem. 5th stanza, 113th word of the poem. It is key, a distance, the total of the 9th clue. 113 feet.
      The only two words that fit the ATF to make it true would be the word “that” or the word “key”.
      The word ‘key’ is not in the poem, the word “THAT” is. Everything you need is in the poem, this leaves the only possible word “THAT”.

      So why is it that I must go, okay. So w(2)y is it (that I must go- so take out the I). So wy st.
      My imagination tells me it is either: South Wyoming State, or, So Wyoming street, or, Southwest. (there are others but you get the jist).
      Southwest…and it has nothing to do with the word “THAT” which is key.

      The poem has nothing refereeing to stones, gemstones, keystones, or any other, why would this even be considered? Since there is no mention, then that would be a fabrication, a guess, and most likely, wrong.

      If you think of any other word, it at least must be in the poem, or it would really have no value at all in finding the chest or being key. If all you need is the poem, and you can find the chest with the poem only, then anything key would be in the poem. If it’s not, it isn’t key.

      • Charlie

        If you count the feet in the poem, metered feet, you get a different number.

        Consider that number as well.

        • Lol, Lug, now you got me on another puzzle. Don’t tell me, I’ll figure it out…Just need to research, then analyze, then conform, then apply, and then answer. THANKS LUG!!!.
          Think I’ll take a day off first.
          I only do it because I do have another number that is almost as important. Beside the usual 57 and 80. Oh, and 2442 or 66. (6th letter of alphabet, F, etc..etc…etc…)
          And, the other number is in feet, and a clue, for me, so will be interesting if something matches up. We will see. Good initial thinking on that Lug, I never thought of it. (never knew “feet” was in poetry either). I will file it in the notes section with “hest”. ( chest, or see hest, two people can keep a secret, yadda, yadda, yadda). Didn’t know hest was even a word, I’m not brilliant at all, but at times I do shine…. Thanks Lug…

        • Thanks Lugz, researched, applied, matched. F seems to always have a backup of info that confirms certain aspects of the chase and it’s clues. For me, looking at the syllables in the poem, (I get 188), I just used the stanzas that hold my clues, and viola. Seeing how this could go with “feet”, made that number feet and it matched up. Very interesting.
          Now I don’t know, you may have a different number, but to see that number for me, when only using clue stanzas, match up with one of my clues, seems a little beyond coincidence. I already had the number, but this is a perfect back up of the info.
          So thanks Lugz, I would have never thought of it, but in researching, is pretty interesting.
          (lol, can’t believe it matched up) 🙂

          • Your syllable count is correct, charlie, but syllables aren’t feet in poetry (though feet consist of syllables).

            If it matters.

          • Charlie as Jake is pointing out the Feet count is different than syllables and without getting nuts, it’s half.

            We can find connections everywhere if we stare hard enough. To me they are coincidence, to others they are hints.

            Zap often decides coincidence counts, but just as often decides it does not.

            If I told Forrest that I was going to wish Charlie a happy birthday, he might say, it will take 20 days to walk there.

            But of course, I’m not going to walk all that way. I’m going to send you an email.

            Poor Forrest got all ril d up for nothing.

            Happy Birthday!

          • It’s been mentioned before, but this is how FF put one foot down and stepped on it to get to the next….IMO

      • Charlie,
        I agree that the key word is in the poem. I’m interested in your observation about ‘that’ indicating we must remove the ‘i’. Not sure I agree with it, but certainly find it interesting. Will have to think about this a while.

        • flutterby, the way I see the poem is to break down each line, do what is instructed. So when I see, ” that I must go”, I look at that line and see the letter “I”, and get rid of it, it must go, right. There are many ways to break down the lines, one way for this line is:

          So w (to) y, my alpha-numerics has “h” equaling 2. So wy s t. (without the letter “I”).
          It’s just one way to break down this line and come up with something.
          Sowyst. It just so happens that in this junction of my path I am facing Southwest, and this line tells me to continue Southwest. A later line tells me how far. And I arrive at the coordinates that the poem has given.
          When he came out with the line, a word that is key, everyone starts guessing because of how they define that statement, but reading into it, there are only two answers. A word which so happens to be “key”, or a word “that” is key.
          If it is so important, it would have to be in the poem, no doubt. So, what he is talking about is the word “that”. Only thing it can be. My solve, 113 is a key number, and, the word “that” happens to be the 113th word. So for me, it’s the 113 that is key. Someone may find something in defining the word, or whatever, but whatever someone finds, for that comment of his, must come from the word “that”. Because that is what he is telling us.
          In reading your post again, it is not the word “that” that tells me to get rid of the letter “I”, it’s the words “that I must go”, has nothing to do with being key or anything, that is just how the line is read and the instruction to follow. If it said “that I should go”, it totally changes the instruction, and the I wouldn’t go anywhere. Should would leave doubt and would need another way to interpret the line, the word “must” is an absolute.
          The word “that’ only pertains to his ATF, a word that is key.

      • I am only offering my take.
        IT is ever changing. Like a game of tag.
        WHY is it, that I must go. Rotate the H. WY
        Begin Wyoming, Yellowstone Park
        Take it, different WY, West
        I believe a word that is key is keystone, because some people were not connecting “a translucent gem” with gemstone in the waters definition to get to the right starting point.
        All IMHO.
        From there IT is no…..changes again
        Follow the poem precisely

        • Wow! that’s impressive. I have not seen that type of thinking. Appreciate your take on clues Wayne. Thanks for sharing. I will need to think more about that. Boom!

        • But Wayne, wouldn’t you think that if something is so important to be “key”, then wouldn’t it need to be in the poem? F said all we need is the poem, so something so important would need to follow this rule. Wouldn’t it?
          Also, where did this come from:
          WHY is it, that I must go.
          Rotate the H. WY, Begin Wyoming, Yellowstone Park.
          Why do we rotate the “H”? There is nothing that says to do this.
          The reason I get Wy instead of Why is because of letter values, my letter values. “h” so happens to have a letter value of 2, or in this case, to. “w” to “y”. I can line it up from what the poem says. To just off and rotate a letter is messing with the poem. There is no where that says to do this, and if not instructed to do something, doing something is then messing with the poem. In this case. You said it: Follow the poem precisely. The poem must instruct you if you are to do something. No stones or keystones in the poem, very doubtful that they would hold any weight. I know it’s your opinion, that’s fine, just trying to get you to think more in line with the poem. We all need to be poem purist in some way, it all boils down to the poem in the end.
          Now if you come out with you’ve found letter value or something else that lets you interpret rotating “H”, or moving a letter, then that’s great. But think about what you are really doing in this situation. Show why you need to rotate, and prove that there is a need to “rotate” at this particular junction. It’s just as easy to say “flip”, or “edit”, or “alternate” or whatever. To make it a possible theory, it must come from the poem…IMO…

          • Understood. ff said imagination. An H is nothing more than an I turned sideways. Unfortunately, this text font doesn’t convey that. But turning the H does. It’s a classic I. The poem says that I must go. Some see an H, I see a sideways I. Again, all in IMHO.

          • Those are textbook definitions of warm, waters and halt-confirmed with textbook
            definitions of yellow, gemstone (translucent) and park.

          • Okay, I can see that Wayne. I might not agree, but I see what you are saying. And that is fine. Again, I feel, so IMO, which means nothing, if there is something key to finding the chest, it must be in the poem…
            But seeing “I” in a sideways “H”, okay, but remember, in the poem, the “H” is “h”. But I see 9:00 in the letters “T”, “Y”, “M”, so who knows. (mirror TYM, to get IX00).


    What if there is no treasure at all but rather “COLD” hard cash?

  15. Whoever is stashing all the cans of grape soda throughout the rockies please stop it! It’s not funny anymore. Seriously!

    • It’s prolly ray henry! He just mentioned grape doda snd a baby ruth above in his post rather thsn a bsbe ruth and a foctor pepper that Forrest alesys speaks of…IMO of course…

      • I’m not a big fan of soda myself, but my late wife loved the grape. These days, I mainly drink tea. And coffee.

      • I found an old Dr. Pepper can in the RM’s, but also other cans, and a beer bottle in the middle of nowhere. A lot of litterbugs out there.

      • FB – many people have found chase related ‘items’…lots of carved FFs out there too…people are jerks. The point to keep in mind is until you hold the box you haven’t solved anything.

        • Tbug,
          I certainly wouldn’t assume I was on the right track if I found an unusual object like FF carved into a tree or a grape soda can. But, I just didn’t realize people were finding this stuff. And, what is wrong with people not realizing that carvings destroy trees and leaving a grape soda can out in the wilderness is leaving trash behind. We should all be following the “leave no trace” rule while in the wilderness!

          • In Colorado, I’ve seen trash dumped and gang signs spray painted on boulders in places I wouldn’t have expected to find any sign of other humans.

            It is amazing (and really sad) where mankind manages to dump its trash and “mark its territory”.

    • Most likely if folks are *stumbling* upon Grape or DR Pepper cans…they are probably not near the treasure chest. I’ve found a ton of unexpected items while BOTG. Discarded flippers, Dr. Pepper cans in crevices, Tin w/ pet dog ashes in a hidey spot, quite a few Geo caches, a small drone(crashed), 48″ RC aircraft w/camera(crashed), hunting knives, camping gear, a compass, one hiking boot…the list is fairly extensive. The flippers were mind boggling considering where they were.

      • You found my compass, ken?
        I couldn’t find which direction I came from to go back and track it down, when I realized it was gone from my pocket I kept my marked trail maps… I tried to use my drone to locate it only the drone never returned. When I went looking for that, my boot got stuck in the mud and had to hop on one foot the rest of the day. Doing so, my knife bounced from it sheath and in deep grass, and while looking for it I stub my toe on a toy plane… I got so mad I threw my last can of DR. Pepper at it, and it popped open, rocketing over a small cliff with a fizzzzz and down.

        Just put the compass next to the cypher ribs by the fence, will ya? I’ll pick it up on my next trip. Thanks.

          • Why would I need flippers? The chest is not under water… umm right?!?
            Best leave them with the compass… just in case.

          • I took a photo of them that I may post some day…
            The hike to the spot was back and forth across a series of springs nothing more than seeps that came together into a smalllll creek. Finally… a very small but picturesque waterfall(all of 4′) flowed into a two foot deep pool of water maybe 18′ across appeared. Those dang flippers were tucked behind one of the many boulders nearby….with a name scratched above them. Something something e k something r….or maybe d.

      • Ken when have you been botg? Oh come on your killing us. Have you really been out. Your on this page everyday!

        • Ernie…I have made a number of trips to search for Fenn’s treasure…more than 5 and less than 10. I say this because I do not really keep track and sometimes my recollections cross over into the many times before Fenn Chase. I will say that over the last 7 plus years involved in the Chase…my mind is nearly always in the Rockies. Do you play poker Ernie…I mean serious poker?

          • Ken – there are 4 or 5 searchers that are on my list of “most likely to find the treasure”. You are one of those. Fins up!!!

          • thanks Sandy…if I were to have a similar list…you would appear on it. Your comments are always very well presented with a good twist for emphasis.

          • You’re all bluffing and I’ll raise.
            Those flippers were mine & lost them in the Firehole.
            It’s amazing where your lost things can end up.
            Did you find my snorkel?

  16. If anyone cares to help me sink one of my ideas I pose a question. Has fenn confirmed that anyone has solved the 3rd clue? I can’t find any quote that says that directly but some interpretations may imply that it has but never outright state such. I think there is a hangup at this point that allows people to continue with the other clues but not have the context needed to actually complete the chase. In other words I strongly suspect that one or more people have had it right under their noses and got everything else right, but without clue #3 would never know it. It has to be a quote from FF, and to the best of my knowledge he has only said: “Some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close”.

    What I am NOT asking:
    How close have people gotten? (Literally or Figuratively)
    What is clue #3? (I think their are multiple possibilities and am trying to narrow them down)
    Has HoB been confirmed as solved?
    How many clues have been confirmed as solved?

    I really need you to help me shoot this down so I do not feel obligate to go back over every single place I have already been with this new idea in mind. Thanks in advance for perhaps saving me some time and/or regret if one of you beats me to the punch.

      • This does help… I’ll be it even FF says people have gotten within 200ft but only “MAY” have solved the first 4 clues. In a way this only makes me more suspicious.

        Anyone have any thoughts on the possibility that you can get within 200ft of the chest having only solved MOST but not ALL of the first 4 clues?

        It seems to me that FF may be playing coy but taking that response at face value it sounds as if the first 4 clues are all you need to get within 200ft and you may not even have to get all of them to get that close.

        • Good point there dys.

          I think we can be certain from those two statements (at the time when they were made) that people who were were within 200 or 500 feet did not get there by correctly following the clues.

        • I can only say that getting the first four clues does NOT get me within 200′.

          “The end is ever drawing nigh” gets me within 1/2 mile and
          “There’ll be no paddle up your creek gets me within 500′ and “Just heavy Loads and Water High” finally gets me within 200′ – But that is just me. This info and $2.00 MAY buy me a cup of java. 🙂

          Please folks – as Labor Day approaches, and many of you will have BotG – PLEASE – TRY and STAY SAFE!!!

          • well lets start the word tossing contest like this
            we studied all the creeks, and we studied all the Meeks, then we studied all the towns, to learn about,l the BROWNS, and then we
            looked up the its and fell in the pits,then we looked at all, the maps, and we had to take a nap., im going to find the right one i know it.
            learning all the way, just to say Im lost with the cold,with no way to figure, the bold may have been brave only to save the sight in my mind a time to remember the smell of beauty with the sight to match on the hunt with titan jeff burch ranee and mom. always in my mind. a teacher,of best, FORREST Fenn, the man that can take it on the chin if we could only figure where to begin good night to all.jeff burch

        • When I read that, it seems to me that the searchers who have come within 200 feet and the “some” who may have solved the first four clues do not necessarily have to be the same groups of people. They *can* be, but they do not *have* to be. The way he phrased his answer, two different metrics of “close” could imply two different groups of people.

          Now, if he had said “Some OF THOSE may have….”, then the two groups would almost certainly be the same.

          Forrest is tricky like a trout; if you give him any wiggle room, he’ll use it. 🙂

          • So, sorry for the long breakdown but you are really helping me think and I guess it is only fair to share.

            A good point. Do take into account that if the statement was simply “Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.” FF would have to have some indicator of the level of progress but uncertainty about the method used to attain that. My only guess would be based on location or behavior that has been conveyed to him is the only way he could guess but not be certain.

            The first sentence on its own is also an indicator of a different metric of close that Fenn would have also needed some indication of but it alone does not state that they arrived at their physical location because of solving some # of clues only that they were “searchers”. It is reasonable (but admittedly skips some steps of logic) to assume that this information was gleaned from searchers sharing their solves either publicly or with FF only.

            So, fair enough this does not necessarily imply that the groups are one and the same or even overlap.

            Okay so I know the quote is from 2015 and things may have changed so I welcome any updates. The logic statements go as follows:

            “Searchers” have been within 200ft
            “Chasers” (May) have solved up to 4 clues
            “Chasers” have not solved clue 5
            “Searchers” are not necessarily “Chasers”
            “Chasers” are not necessarily “Searchers”
            FF knows the actions but not reasons of both groups

            “Chaser(s)” behaved (likely because of their location, but I am not ruling out other possibilities) as if they had solved clue 4 but did not expressly state their reason was the correct solution. The actions of the “Chaser(s)” did not give any indicator that they had solved clue 5.

            “Searcher(s)” have given an indicator of location that was within 200ft of the TC. If they are not also “Chaser(s)” the actions of the “Searcher(s)” was a fluke and FF has some way of determining that they have done so without solving clues #3 and/or #4 (or 5-9 for that matter). Given the scope of the chase I am making an assumption that they got at least #1 correct and probably 2 as well.

            A few assumptions admittedly in my reasoning but it looks like if “Searchers” and “Chasers” are not the same people you can get at least 1-3 clues right and get lucky enough to end up within 200ft anyways. If they are the same people however reporting a location within about 200ft of the chest is an indicator to FF that you could have solved up to 4 clues but is not enough of an indicator that you have solved 5 clues.

            My idea makes it possible that one may inadvertently skip clue 3 and go right to 4 but in doing so it becomes impossible to put clue 5 in necessary context. I think that may be what happens to most people and may have happened to whom FF is referring to if the groups are one and the same.

          • I don’t know quite where that train of thought is taking you, but I wish you luck on your journey. Be sure to grab some bananas on the way by. 🙂

          • As much as I want to explain more on my train of thought Ray, and believe me I do because I have no other sounding board.

            Firstly that train is boarding for a station that I myself find to be absurd, if the idea came from outside my own head I would have dismissed it completely out of hand the same way I do anyone who tries to use numbers, math or cypher.

            Secondly if I am right about this one thing, I for once have a complete solve all the way. The solve puts me within spitting distance of the TC and the ability to know that fact… I have never had a complete solve like that, I always just assumed that accuracy by volume and boots on the ground would finish the chase. If true (big if), I have been within 200ft or closer, but I am not the only one, in fact I don’t even think it is an elite minority that I am in… so best not to let that slip.

            But for fun, If I am on the right track: I know why the little Indian girl cannot get closer or anyone playing at home for that matter. I know why I need a flashlight (ill pass on the sandwich), I know why you should leave your partner in the car, I know why you will be cold as in “your effort will be worth the cold”, I know why you will need to be brave as in “brave and in the wood”, I know why the blaze is at least “in a word” a single solitary object, I know why you have to have BEEN wise rather than BEING wise to find the blaze, I know why it is possible but not feasible to remove the blaze, I know how far is “too far to walk”.

            But that said, what do I know? I may just finally be losing it. For once, one thing answers more questions than it raises and turns all of FF quips almost into inside jokes. Yep, I am laughing all by myself, disregard me. I have just lost my mind is all. Ill pop back on after a couple more years of silence and have some strange overly complex nonsense math that corresponds to letters and page numbers to finally complete the transformation.

          • dys – its not clear if you are aware that the people that were within 200′ TOLD Fenn where they had been, while we can’t know exactly what they sent him (inferring some sent their vacation stories/solves, maybe pictures), we know he confidently knew WHERE they had been. You are correct that he (and we) do not know WHY they were at the location/place they shared with FF, but he did also say that ‘they left the poem’ in not solving the remaining clues (however many that is). Further, there is this ATF “You have to find out – you have to learn where the first clue is. They get progressively easier after you discover where the first clue is. There have been many discussions about why he used ‘find’, ‘learn’, and ‘discover’ for the first clue. Many consider that the 9 clues may be within close proximaty of each other, many do not.

    • Dys,
      The 3rd clue is, No place…..
      And they went by the other 7 clues because they missed their turn.

      • I don’t think that is #3 (but what do I know) also I am beginning to think that there is a (very minor) level of abstraction that allows you to get to the right place in the wrong context. Some clues don’t sound like clues because… well, they are nonsense.

        I’ve always thought the TC is somewhere just slightly outside the boundaries where “conventional” people go. It isn’t hard to get to but only a person stepping outside the lines in the right place and context is even going to notice it.

          • Lots of variables there.

            A hole in a wall or a doughnut for example is functionally infinitely deep.

            However deep it was dug or filled to?

            The distance from an arbitrary designation of its edge to the point closest to the median center of gravity of our planet?

            Depth is an abstract of language presuming some things count and others don’t. A “hole” only exists within the confines of a limited narrative that requires the universe conform to an incorrect understanding created of human hubris and limited perception for the purpose of vainly trying to assign meaning to a highly entropic universe by making arbitrary distinctions. So… not deep at all because holes don’t exist and neither does depth?

            I am sure none of those are the answers you were hinting at. My only hope is the last one gave someone a headache or desire for a stiff drink.

        • When the borderline biddies tell you that you can’t go there, be sure you know for a fact if it is silly for them to say that. They don’t always know what they are talking about.

          • Oh I know, I’ve been hopping fences long before I made treasure hunting my hobby. No harm has ever really come to me as a result and in so far as I can tell I am immortal… so far.

        • dys,
          I agree with your statement, “I’ve always thought the TC is somewhere just slightly outside the boundaries where “conventional” people go. It isn’t hard to get to but only a person stepping outside the lines in the right place and context is even going to notice it.”

          • but it is more complicated…’nobody is going to stumble on that treasure chest’…I agree with the outside the lines/non-conventional person idea…but it raises some potential legal questions too.

            We know ‘there isn’t a human trail in close proximaty to where (he) hid the treasure’ and we know that when he ‘is in the mountains or desert, the last place (he) wants to be is on a trail’ and ‘trails are not favorites of (his). (he) always hiked off trail. why go where everyone else had gone?’

            To me this all points to the need for the absolutely correct starting point. Try this…go to a trail near you that you know (for safety)…now choose a place to walk off the trail…choose a distance, lets say 500’…walk out and turn around and see if you can A) find the trail from where you’re standing, and B) ask yourself if you could find that same exact spot but starting from a different point on the original trail. My experience tells me the answers to both are more likely to be ‘NO’ for most places/people. So the conclusion? Knowing you need to go off trail doesn’t really help you unless you have figured out A) where to start your off-trail movement and B) have explicit direction/distance to where you’re going.

          • Tbug;

            What does Forrest mean when he said “… There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty to where I hid the treasure.”f

            What is “very close proximaty (sic)? For me, close proximity might be 100′ and Very close proximity might be as close as 25′.

            For my particular solve the closest trail is 175′ away – I do not consider that “Very close proximity” – You may disagree. –

            In your post you use “Close proximity” not “Very close Proximity” and you suggest 500′.

            500′ seems a bit far for my way of thinking but that is JMO – JDA

  17. Guy’s,

    I’d like to get your thoughts on Forrests latest word “SWELL” Expand, Large, Larger etc.

    IMO I think that it means that someone or persons have gotten closer than 200 feet to the T.C.

    For example you are 500 feet from your car, you start walking towards your car 400 feet, 300 feet, 200 feet, 100 feet.

    As you get closer to your car your car gets bigger and bigger.

    You are now 500 feet from the T.C, you now start walking towards the T.C 400 feet, 300 feet, 200 feet, 100 feet the location that the T.C is hidden in starts to expand.

    Every step that you take gets you closer to the T.C meaning that Indulgence and the surrounding area is expanding getting larger and larger the closer that you get.

    This is just my way of thinking.

    Stay safe guy’s

    Ronnie the Scot

    • What post are you referencing where Forrest used “SWELL”? – I can’t seem to locate it – JDA

    • Just WAG’s, not sure it’s of any help:
      From wiki re: Surfing – “…Swell is generated when wind blows consistently over a large area of open water, called the wind’s fetch….”
      Potentially related to ‘wavering’? Hopefully for someone it is more related to fetching.

      • Also fits with WWWH being a cloud. A cloud swells as molecules of warm moist air come together to form a cloud.

        Or it could mean nothing at all. It would be kind of swell to use the word swell the day before your birthday.

        Whose idea were these weekly words? Were these FFs idea or someone else?

        • Not especially relevant to your point, but as self appointed minister of completely unsolicited science clarifications I have to point out that clouds are formed in cold (not warm) air. They are condensation.

          • I wasn’t aware that we had a self appointed minister of unsolicited science clarifications. Thanks for letting me know that dys. You are right. The water vapor is only warm when it evaporates and begins to rise. The cloud forms as the air rises enough to cause it to cool. Good to know we have someone keeping us in check regarding science matters.

          • I hope this is being taken in the tone of self deprecating (I am well aware of how arrogant I sound) humor I intended. (I don’t think my charisma translates well via text and my being a smartass tends to drop the smart part). Also forgive me if I ever sound condescending, I am mildly autistic and live in one of the least scientifically literate parts of the country leaving me with no context as to what a baseline of intellect is and presuming the human race is largely willfully ignorant.

            Nimbus clouds form in EVEN COLDER air ergo the greater density of suspended water to the point where light stops penetrating so they look black/gray. Condensation can only occur at low temps. This is usually simplistically explained as air “cooling” but that is not how substances of unequal temperatures/density/pressures actually interact in a thermodynamic model.

            Cold and hot air are like oil and water and for the same reason, molecular density. Clouds no matter what type form on the boundary between the two. Cold air is too dense to hold water in its own right and warm air has too much space to allow water molecules to condensate. When warm meets cold the water collects at the boundary but can only accumulate in the cold air. The greater the disparity in temperature and moisture (carried only by the warm air) the bigger and thicker the cloud and the more violent the storm… again like pouring frigid oil into boiling water (don’t do this it will “explode”)

            Sorry nimbus clouds are no exception but are instead the strongest and most violent example.

            ::End of completely off topic and unsolicited science lecture from some random self-important jackass on the internet::

          • Hi Dys,
            Thanks for explaining. I wrote “Nimbus” above, just remembering wrong from this post, written by a pilot: https://dalneitzel.com/2018/01/07/where-warm-waters-halt-11/ (It is by Andrew, written 5/26/18 at 9:03 pm):

            “I have read other people obliquely refer to my idea about WWWH, but I have searched the archives on this topic and don’t think my interpretation is getting adequate consideration. Like Forrest, I am a licensed pilot. Every pilot knows exactly where warm waters halt. It’s one of the first things you study in ground school, because it dictates when and how you can fly. When warm waters are put in motion, their stability or turbulence–that is, their ability to halt–are determined by two factors: 1) the latent energy of the water vapor and 2) the lapse rate of the surrounding air. Stable air exists where adiabatic cooling exceeds the lapse rate. If adiabatic cooling is less than the lapse rate, warm waters accelerate as they rise and form towering cumulus–highly unstable warm waters that never actually halt. Warm waters halt when adiabatic cooling equals the lapse rate, capped by dewpoint. This is commonly known as a stratus cloud.”

    • One meaning of “swell” among many:

      A swell is a wave (usually one in a repeating series) that is not the result of the local wind patterns, but is generated by distant weather patterns. If you are an expert at reading the swell, you can forecast approximately when the storm will arrive and from what heading.

      When I was a boy, my grandfather used to take me fishing along the Cache La Poudre River above Fort Collins. He could always tell when a storm was coming down the canyon even if all we could see was blue skies. He could even predict if it would be a short shower that we could sit out in the truck or if it would be a big bluster that would end our fishing for the day.

      He said he knew by reading the swell of the river. I never got the knack for seeing what he was seeing, but I cannot deny that he was always right.

      Metaphorically, reading the swell is akin to “sensing a disturbance in the Force”.

      • Why would f use those words?
        Creen- awesome,
        another term for the b_t_h_le,
        does not know the scene
        Queer- something odd,
        swivet- fluster, panic
        swell- great, wonderful,
        an awesome wave,
        liquid pumped into something to make
        They must have meant something different in his day or he’s having fun with the ghost…

        • One of my favorites is thong as it used to refer to sandals. The Pickles comic is a great source for how word used to be used.

        • Charlie,
          Would it help to know that red tea, green tea, & black tea is also associated with your list. All my opinion of course.

      • Interesting story Ray, your grandpa was definitely old school…I wonder if he had a bum knee…I can tell when a big storm is coming, not so accurate on the small ones.

        I would love to hear any solves for the Poudre area, anyone?
        I fished the cache a few years ago near the Dadd Gulch trailhead, fun couple hours, caught 7-8 fish, not too many people. I lived in Fort Collins for 5 years during college, spent a lot of time up the Poudre (Young Gulch), Cameron Pass, State Park, other great areas are Lory state park and Buckhorn Canyon/Pennock Pass.

        • Alas, I have no Poudre Canyon solves to offer. I considered it for a while, but I couldn’t come up with anything that fit very well. The best I could come up with is that there is a fish hatchery part way up the canyon (home of Brown trout?). Practically next door on the downstream side of the hatchery is the remains of McKeag’s Cabin from the filming of the 1970s miniseries Centennial (home of Brown logs?). It was fairly well known in the 1970s and 1980s, but I think most people have forgotten it is there by now. I suppose Cameron Pass could be a WWWH, but it doesn’t feel convincing to me. I can’t nail it down there with any confidence.

          I have a similar bum knee. Injured it getting out of a truck (hyperextended) several years ago. Now it throbs whenever there is a sharp change in the barometer.

          We fished all up and down the canyon, but our home base was at the Williams Gulch campground near Kinnikinnik. It was closed in the 1990s (I think) and the access blocked with a locked metal pipe gate. No overnight camping allowed now. Access to the river for fishing is still permitted.

          When I was still really young, we’d all grab breakfast at Ted’s Place before heading up the canyon to the camprground. Until Ted’s burned down. Now there is just a Conoco and an interpretive sign marking where Ted’s used to be.

          I miss those times.

          • Ray, Tbug…my family has had a cabin in the upper Poudre for 56 years. I lived in Poudre Canyon 12 years..was married in the chapel and my oldest daughter went to the one-room schoolhouse for a few years. My father-in-law was legendary in the canyon for his fishing ability, and my in-laws owned Bighorn cabins at one time. I worked at Ted’s before it burned down, the original Verns Place before it burned down, also Rustic Resort off and on for a decade+ before it burned.. I swear, there isn’t a pattern here lol. I have seen solves for the old B52 airplane wreckage site up by Pingree Park, the Never Summer Range, and La Poudre Lake in Rocky Mtn Natl. Park (headwaters Cache La Poudre). Try as I might, I could never put together a solve in that area. Mostly because I could never find a WWWH that satisfied me. When I think of where my “home” is, it is in the Poudre Canyon. So many memories there.

          • Sandy … I remember Rustic Resort. I was so sad when it burned down. I was glad at least the rainbow trout sign survived.

            I have a history filled with burned memories as well. Like you, I swear I had nothing to do with any of them. 🙂

            Ted’s Place, Rustic Resort, the old RMNP visitor center above Estes Park where they used to have a kiddie train and an observation tower, the Stuckey’s outside Loveland, … the list is long. Sometimes I feel like there is a devil coming along behind me and burning up my past.

            Poudre Canyon will always be a special place for me.

            I agree there a lot of possible WWWH in the area, but I’ve never found one that I could turn into any kind of decent solve. Although, if I were to set up a treasure hunt, I think the Never Summer Mountains would make an awesome clue! 🙂

  18. For anyone out there in Fennland interested, Here is some rabbit hole fodder: “Tarzan” (ape name meaning white skin) .
    Before f chose “Indulgence” he thought of Tarzan as a possible name for the chest. Something here? Who knows… only Forrest and he ain’t tellin’

    • I have written before about finding the white headstone shaped rock in the perfect spot that the poem led me to, but not considering the possibility that the rock itself was how FF “I hid it” until I was 300 miles away.

      It’s not too much of a stretch to make an association to your Tarzan definition from that I’d say. More bias-y interpretation most likely, but I’ll take it.

      • This is probably a silly question, but When you saw that headstone shaped rock, did you look under it?

      • On page 95 of TTOTC:
        “But I had tripped over a crudely-made stone grave marker that had fallen face down in the grass. Before I could roll it over to see what it said, the pilot was strapping in.”

        As Veronica said, “Did you turn it over?” Just askin – JDA

        • It’s kind of hard to explain but the short answer is no. It was in a little hollow of larger (non-white) rocks forming something like a windbreak and the hollow was maybe 3 feet down from the rock I was standing on and maybe 2-3 feet by 3-4 feet (approximately).

          You could see all around and behind the headstone rock (it was standing up leaning against one of the larger rocks) and the ground itself was smooth dirt and there wasn’t space for the TC unless it was buried in there by the headstone (which is possible, sure, though I’ve never thought it was buried due to 12′ ATF comment).

          For whatever reason, I didn’t go down into the hollow and look more closely at the headstone rock or consider it being buried.

          So posting my full solve is on hiatus for a TBD time period.

          • So I first posted about this headstone rock on 8/12 and FF answered Jenny’s Buffalo Bill grave question on 8/16.

            The key to beating confirmation bias is recognizing it and not letting it own you.

    • Here is an amusing question, any guesses on why the TC is called Indulgence? I THINK I know the answer but I don’t think it is relevant or new information to the chase. When you think on the definition of the word indulgence it isn’t exactly a fitting title save for some minor trivia.

      • Indulgence:
        the action or fact of indulging.
        “indulgence in self-pity”
        synonyms: satisfaction, gratification, fulfillment, satiation, appeasement;

        The above seems to fit – I know I will be satisfied and gratified and fulfilled when I find it, and I bet that Forrest felt the same as he filled it.

        slaking, quenching
        “the indulgence of all his desires”
        self-gratification, self-indulgence, overindulgence, intemperance, immoderation, excess, excessiveness, lack of restraint,

        Not sure I like the above!

        the state or attitude of being indulgent or tolerant.
        “she regarded his affairs with a casual, slightly amused indulgence”
        synonyms: tolerance, forbearance, understanding, kindness, compassion, sympathy, forgiveness, leniency, mercy, clemency, liberality
        “I ask for your indulgence”
        antonyms: severity, harshness
        a thing that is indulged in; a luxury.
        plural noun: indulgences
        “Claire collects shoes—it is her indulgence”
        synonyms: extravagance, luxury, treat, nonessential, extra, frill
        “they viewed vacations as an indulgence”
        antonyms: necessity

        (in the Roman Catholic Church) a grant by the Pope of remission of the temporal punishment in purgatory still due for sins after absolution. The unrestricted sale of indulgences by pardoners was a widespread abuse during the later Middle Ages.

        Don’t envision the above as applying – JMO – JDA

        • Do forgive me for going a bit dark here, but I think you have the winner in the historical.

          Now I don’t know know how spiritual/religious FF ultimately is, I don’t imagine “extremely” so (but my imagination should not be mistake for having any bearing on reality).

          Part of this was going out on his own terms not on cancers. He said himself more than once he would just take some sleeping pills and drift off (paraphrasing).

          Suicide is the only unforgivable “sin” because you (if successful) cannot repent in life. Indulgences however can be purchased ahead of time.

          I think this is more symbolic than his actual belief but his final act in this world would have been quite the act of charity as well as abject defiance to circumstance.

          It was only later that he decided to make that two separate acts.

          • FF says that he is not very religious but that it would be hard to find someone who is as spiritual as he is.

      • dys & others,
        Indulgence can mean, “an extension of the time in which a bill or debt has to be paid” Just like FF paid a debt to the waterfall in the clearing when he survived the night in the jungle, I think he has paid a debt for surviving cancer. This TC is the payment of the debt. It is an extension of the time in which a bill or debt has to be paid.

        • I like that Flutterby. I always felt there was some kind of burden or debt FF was negotiating or at least delaying. Indulgence is that bit of time, the grace period, before the bank shuts you down & starts adding penalties. That little span where knowing the edges allows you to live within the margins.

      • I think the name Indulgence is meant to be a humorous comparison to the Catholic notion that a person can pay cash for sins in order to minimize that person’s time in purgatory.

        Even before Martin Luther, John Wyclyf and Jan Hus both had their suspicions about the church accepting cash in this world for payment in the afterlife to the Lord who needs no money.

  19. I’m dizzy after studying the poem most of the weekend.
    I think I know all 9 clues, yet I can’t find the treasure from my studies.
    Does anybody else have this problem?
    Seriously, I don’t think I could find the treasure today, if I had to….
    Yet, if somebody bet me money and I could show Mr. Fenn my 9 clues, and get a yea or a nay……….I think I would win the bet.

    Clearly Clueless (on where the treasure is)

    • According to Forrest if your solve does not take you within several feet it us a general solve not a correct solve. If you have the last clue correct you should know where the treasure is but if you don’t know where it is at then go back to the first clue.

      • Agreed.

        My feeling is that a correct solve should take you at least close enough to the chest to be able to see it, or see some obvious indicator of its precise location. He’s not going to lead someone along some long convoluted trail only to dump them into an area the size of Houston with nothing more to work from.

        If you arrive at the final clue correctly, the end of the quest will be clear with a minimum of fuss. You just have to find the X that marks the spot.

        Of course, Forrest doesn’t do things the way most people do, so it probably isn’t an X. 😉

          • So JDA
            Is it an “X” or something else…
            Please tell the room your opinion?

          • I honestly do not know. It could be an “X”, or it could be something a bit different. Forrest’s arrowhead that he found at age nine started him on his life’s quest to learn about geography and Native American history – possibly he wanted it to end the same way – Who, but Forrest knows? – Not me JDA

          • JDA . . . let’s see if I’ve got this straightforward.

            You posted: ” . . . Forrest’s arrowhead that he found at age nine started him on his life’s quest to learn about geography and Native American history – possibly he wanted it to end the same way – . . . ”

            So you think it’s possible that FF wanted Native American History to end the same way, hmm?

            I sure hope FF DOESN’T want Native American History
            to end. It’s pretty important to some folks, I believe.

            As always, IMO.

          • tighterfcus,
            I don’t think JDA meant that FF wanted Native American history to end. It sounded to me like he was suggesting that perhaps the chase ends with an arrowhead, which is the way it began. I don’t know one way or the other. But, that would be kinda nice I think.

    • You might have something there..

      Without thinking about it too much, would you say that a hot spring and/or a gyser swells out of the ground? I feel like I can’t answer that instantly..

    • Zap –

      You are quiet for some reason.

      Isn’t this it? Isn’t Forrest completely validating all your work?

      S W E L L

      You’re ELL must be too far NE. Sort of the opposite of the hat Fsaid to Randy’s wife.

      • Lug: I’m in Colorado Springs checking out your buddy’s Seven Falls. He missed a few things: Dizzy Dean is on the same picture in the cave as Babe Ruth sitting on the burro. He also failed to mention the Kinnikinnik, Aspens, and Moss and Lichen informative signposts on the Midnight Trail. If Forrest mentions Wendell Wilkie, Walt Disney, or Jack Dempsey in an upcoming Scrapbook or MW Q&A, E.C. will go bonkers. 😉

        • Wow, there is so much in and around the Springs.

          Home of the brown water navy and the training fighter tactical wing.

          For you, check out the WW2 Aviation Museum.

          EC is brilliant.

  20. If the hole is in the Stone Of Accord then it is not deep at all, but about a foot thick..

  21. In Forrest Gets Mail -9, one of the questions is this,
    “Is it an advantage to buy The Thrill of the Chase and Too Far to Walk?”
    “There are hints in my TTOTC book that can help solve the clues in the poem.”

    He didn’t mention here that there were hints in TFTW. Hasn’t he said in other places that there are hints in TFTW? I have avoided ordering any other books except for TTOTC. I just didn’t want to muddy the water with any more confusing info. Finally got to a place where I wanted to read TFTW. It should be here by tomorrow. Are there no hints in TFTW? What has FF said about it?

    While I’m asking about books, has anyone read any of FF’s other books not related to the chase? I was kind of curious about reading Teepee Smoke.

    • Someone else can correct me if I am wrong but there is an unintended clue that is important if you can find it in TFTW that no one has correctly told him. There was also a context that seemed to imply that eliminating Canada was not the unintended hint. All three books are worthwhile imo as is Jenny’s book.

      • I’ve read that there is an unintended hint/clue in the preface. Does anyone know if FF talked about other hints/clues other than the preface or the map?

        How about Once Upon AWhile? Does it supposedly have hints?

        • Flutterby;

          OUAW – to me at least has nothing but hints. Almost every chapter seems to have at least one idea that one might interpret as a hint – JMO – JDA

          • Thanks JDA,
            What I’m wondering is if FF has ever specifically stated that there are hints in TFTW and OUAW. Does anyone know? I know he has said there was an unintended clue in TFTW, but other than that, I haven’t heard him specify that there are other hints/clues in either of these two books. I suspect there are hints, but would like a quote from FF saying there are.

          • Hi Flutterby: Forrest has admitted there are “clues” in TFTW (could be that he meant hints — sometimes he uses the terms interchangeably). In the Moby Dickens Bookshop video (11/2/2013) past the 38-minute mark he clearly says clues plural in TFTW: “But there are clues in my new book that can help a person.”

          • Lug…I posted the comment w/reference to the Moby book signing for TFTW. This is all typical Fenn speak with gray areas…but I do believe he is referring to his *new book*(TFTW) with this comment. Further along @ around 42 minutes he specifically says “There are no clues in this book, but there are some hints. What I tell people to do, if you’re really serious about looking for the treasure, get the Thrill of the Chase and read it.”
            At another time he was asked if there were clues in TFTW and he answered yes….because the map was in it. The poem is on the map…

          • HI Ken –

            Whenever he says “my book” I think he is referring to the first one.

            Now, I suppose if he is saying there are hints in TFTW there must be. Sounds like he still says hey go get the other book.

    • I believe I recall that FF said their are clues in TFTW because the poem is in it. Please correct me if I’m wrong.

      • Aaron,
        That was always my thinking as well. So i really don’t spend much time with TFTW.
        But, his lack of certainty when asked to clarify may have left room for one more unintended clue and i think that’s what everyone is seeking…i think?? J.O.

        • To help determine what this clue is perhaps we should be asking how it’s possible for a clue to unintentionally end up in the book in the first place. If it is something he, how did he not realize it was a clue at the time? What about a clue can make it slip past him?

          • 38:01 2013 moby Dickens book signing
            “Well I’ve not had anybody tell me the answer to that clue. If you read my preface it doesn’t take a genius to know what they are talking about. But there are clues in my new book that can help a person.”
            This was in respose to Q about anyone correctly mentioning the unintended clue…

          • Yes, good thinking. Ken nailed his response, Thanks for digging that up Ken. i believe that is straight from the Taos video. I have always connected the quote “If you read my preface it doesn’t take a genius to know what they are talking about.” to the line in the poem. except his very next comment “But there are clues in my new book that can help a person.” could suggest people are wrong about connecting the preface of TFTW with the line in the poem. This one has me twisted!

        • I wonder if I have found an anti-clue in TFTW. In other words, FF did not refer to something he brought up twice or maybe three times in TTOTC. He mentioned in one place in TTOTC that when Miss Ford got angry, “rage had found a home”. He also mentioned in My War For Me, where “the dangerous air lived”. I believe both of those things are hints to how to solve HOB. I didn’t notice any mention of phrases like that in TFTW. So the absence of this type of language suggests in my mind that indeed those phrases in TTOTC are hints.

      • small point Aaron…the answer to that particular Q was…”….the map is in it.”
        Of course the map in the book has the poem on it….

        • Aaron/Ken: It seems pretty obvious to me that the unintended clue is in the only part of the text of the book that Forrest didn’t write.

          • The preface to too far to walk is all about how fast life is going past the age of 80 and the urgency that he felt to get too far too walk to the presses. He goes on to add in some quick quirps that would seem to most to be insignificant , these short stories being things that he wished he could have added if he didn’t rush it to print.
            Why is this important?
            Because he’s highlighting the speed of editing and publishing of the book in a couple instances. so my mind looks for typos or mistakes that could help us. Well if you pay close attention to stanza 5 on the version of the poem printed on the fancy map at the end of the book, the word answer is missing an S. I think this is a very important clue because it is an indication to us that Forrest is asking us more than one question. I feel that by him further hinting to that typo and that specific hint, is him amplifying the lines importance as well as an attempt at trying to get us to notice.

            Another interesting fact regarding this subject is that on one of the front or back pages of once upon a while gives credit to the editing person arguing with Forrest about punctuation. I think the mystique of his wording must be an editors nightmare and I bet that they edited that s on answer right off of the map because it didn’t appear grammatically correct.

          • Double A: in case you missed it, Forrest chimed in on the answer/answers typo five years ago:

            From Forrest Get Weird Mail “Mr. Fenn, After locating the Blaze in the poem by solving the clues, and having been led to the chest, I was disheartened to learn that there are two different versions of the poem. The version found on The Thrill of the Chase Resource page online shows: “The answer I already know”, while the version published in your memoir reads: “The answers I already know”. Based on the way the clues are solved to this point, it is obvious that every word and every letter are crucial. I was hoping you would be able to clarify which version of the poem is correct. Should the word answer have an S on the end to make it plural? Perhaps this one letter has no bearing on the final solution, but it is something that continually weighs on my mind. Hope all is well! –Archie”

            Forrest: “Archie, It makes no difference, one of them is only an innocent typo. You can pick which one. F”

  22. Dear Mr. Zaphod,

    I’ve been lurking and reading many of your comments over many weeks. They are very interesting! Would you be willing to share a map, that you think is a “right map” of the rockies? If you don’t want to share publicly my email is my name at gmail. I look forward to hearing from you!


  23. Ken & others,
    So what did he mean when he said, “But there are clues in my new book that can help a person.” Was he talking about TFTW or was he already working on OUAW?

      • Ken,
        Yes. That comment was at the book signing. It suggests to me that TFTW contains multiple hints. Am I wrong?

        My copy of TFTW arrived today. I think I know the unintended clue in the preface.

        • Flutterby, I love that name btw. I have one suggestion (theory) related to this topic. Review the 2006 video of Mr. Fenn when he is being recorded at the Buffalo Bill Museum. Watch the video very closely to see which way his eyes move when he is retrieving what we know to be facts or truth. Then watch the Moby Dickens video very closely when he is asked about “the” clue or unintended clue. I think this is around the 50:00 mark. You can make your own conclusions. My theory is he got flustered and told a fib. But that’s just me and maybe a few others.

          • If you think FF “fibs” about this hunt — which is so
            important to folks that they are spending large amounts of
            time and money on it, then I suggest you don’t participate.

        • Flutter….the opinions on this subject are all over the board. Some folks believe the hint relates to Fenn’s story that includes; 10 miles….and the words TFTW which are also in the poem. Entire solves are/have been based on this, or some variation of.
          Fenn pointed out that Canada was left off the map. If you research ALL info from multiple blogs on this subject you will see there are other theories as well…some more compelling than others.

        • That ”unintended clue’ is like the elusive white blaze. Forrest explained the ‘unintentional’ clue which was the map with Canada out. He said benchmark maps did it, not him, therefore -unintended-.

          The 10-mile hint on the preface was someones’ machination. He never said that 10 miles is too far to walk. You have to read it in context to know what he means with -too far to walk-.

          • Hi Oz10: the problem with this not-so-elusive clue being that Canada was left of the map is that surely SOME searcher would have mentioned this was the unintended clue in the book. But how did Forrest answer this question?

            “Coming from the online site again, I’ve been asked to ask you how many people have told you that they’ve discovered the unintended clue in Too Far to Walk and how many were right?”

            Forrest: “Well, I’ve not had anybody tell me the answer to that clue. If you read my preface, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out I think what they’re talking about. But there are clues in my new book that can help a person. Did I answer that question – did it have two parts?”

            Interviewer: “Ah yes, uh no that was it.”

            In the context of the whole exchange, it doesn’t sound to me as if Canada missing was *the* unintended clue, and since many searchers latched onto the 10 miles in the Preface, it ain’t that either. Clearly Canada missing is AN unintended clue; I just can’t see how that’s the one that Forrest is alluding to since he revealed that NO ONE had given him the correct answer.

          • Hey Zaphod,

            -Well, I’ve not had anybody tell me the answer to that clue. If you read my preface, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out I think what they’re talking about.-

            The first part of that statement is what is confusing people. If you change it this way then the whole sentence makes sense…

            – Well, I’ve not had anybody answer me exactly what they believe is the unintended clue. If you read my preface, it doesn’t take a genius to figure out I think what they’re talking about.-

            So, what people believe is not what always is. Also, later on the same video -minute 44:00- he does say (there are some hints on this book) with his hand on TFTW. But immediately says go to TTOTC and the poem. Whatever hints are on tftw are unnecessary to crack the poem.

          • Hi Oz10: I actually didn’t find Forrest’s answer at all confusing. I think it’s clear that the “doesn’t take a genius” answer is the 10 mile comment, and that “guess” is wrong.

            “Whatever hints are on tftw are unnecessary to crack the poem.”

            I agree. I would expand that to say none of the hints in any of the three books is “necessary” to solve the poem. But I do think they improve your chances. For instance, without the hints I don’t think anybody can “nail down” WWWH because the poem alone doesn’t provide you enough confidence (IMO).

          • Zaphod,

            …without the hints I don’t think anybody can “nail down” WWWH.

            Is that a fact? I will like to believe it but I don’t know what you know.

          • Oz10: we at least have some anecdotal evidence that the standalone line “Begin it where warm waters halt” is insufficient to solve for the starting location:

            MW Q&A (7/1/2014): “Dear Forrest, You tell us that we should find ‘where warm waters halt’ before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is: a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe” Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve”

            Forrest: “No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence.”

            My takeaway is that we need more than line 5 to have that confidence. I wonder if Forrest’s answer would have been different if Steve had said that all you had were the first 5 lines of the poem and “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”? My guess is that his answer probably would have been the same.

          • Zap,

            I thought we were talking about the hints in ttotc. You said it is impossible to nail down wwwh without the ‘hints’ in the ttotc or the hint in the first stanza?

            If we are talking of that 1st stanza and that ‘keyword/hint/clue/egg/aberration’ you named depending on who is asking, lol… then it is in the poem, so yes, that works.

          • Oz10: yes, we’re talking about the hints in TTOTC. What I should have said more clearly is that even if you find the hint in the first stanza of the poem (and I believe you must find it), then it’s still not enough to give a searcher 100% confidence that they’ve got the right WWWH.

            A searcher being honest with him or herself could not really proceed with confidence to the starting point without something more than what’s provided in the first five lines of the poem. So to be clear, I’m saying the poem by itself is *sufficient* to determine the starting point. I just don’t think that the poem on its own gives you enough confidence that you wouldn’t consider alternatives. With the hints from the books, you’d abandon those alternatives, IMO.

          • Are you sure you’re not thinking of the elusive white
            whale (Moby Dick)? We don’t absolutely know that the
            blaze is white, or even a color “close” to white. As always,

        • Jeff, you hit on an interesting idea about the “fib”. In the PREFACE ff discussses his graying hair and says “…. but that problem is easily solved by just telling people I was dying it and they never knew the difference.” … disclosing/hinting to the reader he tells little white lies. Two paragraphs later he admires the prank (lie) Eric Sloane told Who’s Who about his birth date. Another harmless little white lie. Maybe the hints in TTOTC in are in the little white lies in the stories….. the 15% fiction mentioned in IMP LIT. OS2

      • Flutterby: it would be hard for any clue in the preface to be unintended since Forrest wrote the preface.

        • Zap, you believe that the unintended clue is in text that he did not write. What makes you think that? Shouldn’t he have read the text and recognized the clue before it was published?

          • Unintended or unintentional can mean;
            Unconsciously, unthinking, involuntary… in the first thoughts or writing out a draft. Only later to leave it in.
            Lets use the 10 miles for example. It fit stories being told, only to later realize it is something helpful [ if only we knew ], and he decided to leave in anyways. Untended as helpful to start with, but nevertheless, could be.

            The more likely scenario is Canada gone from the search area. Fenn never excluded Canada prior, a quick going over the map before publishing shown the areas he desired without realizing “we” still thought Canada was in play.

            It also is a good way to get folks interested in buying the second book that holds anything related to the clues or excluding 1/2 of a search area.

            Maybe this is why fenn used SF. and mountains N. of… a city in the USA, Rather than saying the US RM’s, line of thinking, yet not say NM.

          • Hi Aaron: yes I do.

            “Shouldn’t he have read the text and recognized the clue before it was published?”

            I’m sure he did. But what could he do about it? If he edited the hint/clue out, then the writer would be tipped off. It would be akin to doctoring Allen Polt’s illustrations — Allen would know.

          • To add to Zap’s statement, he also noted a sense of urgency to get the book printed (2nd paragraph of the preface) that some stories were left out. Something might have also gotten added because of that urgency that he couldn’t remove for the reason Zap mentioned.

  24. Tighterfocus: in the last incarnation of Odds -n- Ends, in response to JDA, you wrote that you were “unable to recognize references to all seven colors in the rainbow” in the “Tea With Olga” chapter. Is indigo all that you’re missing?

    Red: tea
    Orange: “sunny”
    Yellow: chamisa
    Green: tea, sage, juniper
    Blue: “feeling of sadness”
    Violet: mountain laurel — has purple flowers that smell like grape soda (!)

    • For me -“Feelings of sadness that permeated our visits” = Indigo
      Sadness = blue – deep sadness = Indigo – JMO –

      Black and white, which are not in the rainbow are in the Oreo cookies

    • Remind me, which colors are actually stated in this chapter? Red tea, black tea and green tea stick in my mind. Where there other colors stated, or are the other colors interpretations? Thanks!

      • LingeringDoubt: red and green are the only rainbow colors mentioned by name in that chapter. In my 8/28 2:30 pm post above I give some possibilities for additional ROYGBIV colors being suggested via other words in the chapter (e.g. chamisa, sunny, sage, juniper, mountain laurel).

  25. Lugnutz, I think you might be right when you said :I think Gut Feeling is a reference to a specific chaser.” In his gut feeling quote FF mentioned that searchers don’t usually tell him exactly where they are searching, followed by the gut feeling comment. Some have clearly told him exactly where they have or will search. We know this because of how close people came to the treasure. This makes me think that the person that gave him the gut feeling may have told him the general vicinity but not exactly, as FF mentioned, where.

    If this is right, I wonder if we have a new member of the 200 foot club.

    • Aaron,
      Indulgence has felt or become alert to the vibrations of hiking boots per recent end of year comments for 2016 or 17. How close is that? This topic reminds of how many licks to the center of the tootsie pop.

    • It would have to be after July 28th as kpro noted:

      “My email: Forrest, latest article says the 200 foot person was a recent searcher. Care to clarify?

      FF response: Not a recent searcher. f”

      My guess is that someone was in the right search area and had several clues but then lost their way (made it more complex than it needed to be). One can definitely be logically close while not having made BOTG.

  26. Argillite — in the prior Odds -n- Ends, you asked: “Forrest once mentioned an Astrophysicist friend or something of the ilk. I ran across it once but can’t find it again. Does anyone know who that might have been?”

    That was Forrest’s friend Richard Blake — was once a solar physicist at Los Alamos National Lab. He’s the one that secured the “brother” of The Bullet for Forrest.

    • Yes— he is the world’s foremost authority on the blaze, oops, I mean the sun. Richard Blake is a solar expert.

      • Sparrow,
        Are you saying you agree with me that the blaze has something to do with the sun? I think HOB is sun related and that when you find the blaze, you have found HOB. Would love to discuss with someone who agrees on this point. IMO

        • Flutterby—

          I really have no idea what the “blaze” is. But the phrase “But tarry scant (don’t stay too long) with marvel gaze (staring at something in wonder)” has always made me wonder whether that sentence is saying not to look at the sun too long. It’s dangerous you know. lol

          I’m not sure that when you’ve found the blaze you have found the HOB though. But good thinking.

  27. Well, not that anybody in here cares but I was going to wait until the leaves drop and then go back and see if I can figure out my solve. It’s been bugging me to just walk away from this chase without giving it one more try. I headed out on Sunday afternoon and it took me 2 days to get close to my destination. I’m in Livingston, MT. right now after deciding to take an extra day(today) to rest up after two 11 hour days of driving. My feet are still a bit swollen but it’s my last hurrah! 🙂 It might take me a day or two to find what I’m looking for(Indulgence) but it’s BOTG for me tomorrow!!! Both my parents died on the same day 6 years apart, September 3, 2006(Dad) & 2012(Mom). Maybe one of them will slap some sense into me(prolly both) and tell me that enough is enough! OR maybe I can get in touch with a certain Chief’s spirit and like my poem said…come on Chief Joseph please help me to see. Either way, you can stick a fork in me because I’m done climbing this mountain. My cat misses me every time I leave and she’s getting a little tired of me telling her that “I gotta go Miss Kitty”. She was born in Dodge City, KS. and the grandkids named her “Miss Kitty”! GO FIGURE! BAHAHAHAHA!!!! Man I love those kids! Anyhoo, I’m in Livingston, MT. right now just waiting for tomorrow to bring and end to MY journey. There might not be a rainbow at the end of my journey but I can tell you that there’s definitely one at the end of Forrest Fenn’s! Take your time Forrest, NO HURRY! It’ll be there waiting for you when you’re ready! Every time it rains! BAMM! Rainbow! That’s one of my most favorite video’s I have on my phone is of that rainbow! Actually it is my most favorite. The 2 cowardly Vultures is my second, and the 3rd is when the clouds surround the mountain near Livingston and I’m actually DRIVING IN THE CLOUDS!!! WOW!! What a journey I’ve had! NO REGRETS! What a beautiful country we have peeps! Enjoy your journey and God bless each and every one of you! Thank you to all…I have enjoyed reading your genius! I honestly look up at you because so many are on another level. (Drop the Mic!) I’M OUTA HERE…..Peace to all.

    • No please don’t go! Your still to young pick that mic up and keeps on keeping on rap rap it up and make it happen again Delano Bravo you’re much to youngo… don’t quit. Find another solve and Y on!!!!!

      • Ernie…you’re killin me smalls!! LOL! Remember what Billy Joel said? I’d rather laugh with the sinners than cry with the Saints, the sinners are much more fun… Well ya know that only the good die young. .
        Go get ’em Ernie! The legend lives on! Peace brother! Bravo out!

      • Thanks Flutter! Some people are stand up and some people stand out. You are both and beyond! Good luck to you and God bless!

  28. Deano,

    When posting, please try to separate your thoughts into paragraphs.

    It is difficult to understand your thought patterns without breaks between thought, and or messages.

    I hope I’m being too critical; but effective communication begins with proper grammar and sentence structure. Sorry for being “OLD SCHOOL” but it does lead to effective communication. (In My Humble Opinion)

    • Fennatical,
      You have some great ideas. But, does it really matter what format someone chooses to write with?

      This is not grammar school and Miss Ford isn’t here. If someone’s style isnt what I like, I just don’t read it. People can express their thoughts in any format they choose as long as they are courteous to others.

      Go Deano! Good Luck! Please tell us about your adventure.


      • ❤ It’s all good Flutter ❤ I’ve been tied to the whipping post, tied to the whipping post, good Lord I feel like I’m dyinnnn…

    • It’s all good Fennster…gopd luck with the chase! I gotta go see my english teacher about my punctuation. Hopefully it gets better? Sorry for the hastle…

    • WyMustIGo…I’m going to guess until you find it there? Good luck…carry on my wayward son!

    • Thanks Lady V…keep these peeps in line! Watch out for Ernie! Sounds like he’s gonna wrap it up! Good luck with the chase! ❤

    • At least we don’t have the Académie française determining what words are officially considered a part of our language like the French do. “The Meaning of Everything” is a good read about how hard it is to produce a comprehensive dictionary for the English language since we’re free to make up words as we go along. So ken, you can take some pride in knowing that you’re making life difficult for dictionary publishers.

      • actually JW…I’d like to take credit for that quote…but can’t even though I agree with it. You can thank Fenn for that one….and I am certain he is proud.

        • Ah, should have recognized the thinking behind that quote. I spend so much time trying to think like him after all.

  29. There once was a maverick named Fenn who scoffed at comas, sentence structure, and grammatical spin.

    There was not enough time to split hairs while digging into ancient lairs and keeping a keen eye to the dust in the land of BROWN bears.

    In the Rockies are glorious things that conv

    ey what words and punctuation can never with
    justice say.

    To each his own when he blows his own horn and communes with those all around. Don’t bring me down with writing rules and when I speak I drool!

  30. If all the world’s languages were students in a one room school house, english would be the one sliding out the window to play hooky.

  31. Perhaps you are right Seeker and I am overthinking this. Still it’s hard to imagine that FF wouldn’t pay attention to the detail of the map or the text of a book that he knows will be widely scrutinized.

    • Aaron…go to *The Map* thread on this blog and read down a few entries and you will see that Dal confirms that Forrest has said that the *Canada* map issue was/is the unintended clue….hope this helps ease the mind.

  32. RE – searchers “left the poem.”

    A little less than a year ago, Cynthia posted:

    “It was a conversation between Fenn and a journalist. Fenn said “And that’s an approximate (200 feet) but it’s pretty close because some people have told me exactly where they were and i recognize that spot and I know that it’s about 200 feet from where I hid the treasure. To my knowledge no one has come closer than 200 feet.” Journalist:”And why is it, that they gave up before finding it?” Fenn: “No they didn’t give up; they left the poem.” ”

    At the time, loco and a couple others asked for the source of that exchange, and if Cynthia ever supplied it, I’ve been unable to find it.

    Anyone have the actual source of ff’s “left the poem” statement?


    • If confirm-able than this provides that approximately 200 feet from the treasure is a spot that is recognizable. Which in theory should be able to help people re-evaluate their final solve/clue location.

      • Is it possible that searchers solved the first 2 clues and were not anywhere near 200′ or even 500′ but at some point after leaving the poem came within those distances not even knowing they were there? Just thinking out loud.

    • I also read the same Cynthia post you referenced. So, I just checked her website where she lists FF quotes and she does not have it listed as an official FF quote. Doesn’t mean it isn’t. Maybe she hasn’t updated. Not sure.

      • It sure reads like an accurate transcript of an interview or article, and Cynthia is as credible as they come.

        I’m mostly curious about the time and context of the exchange, and especially whether what she posted is a sole surviving artifact, or if there’s more of it.


          • Ken just posted on “My Total Eclipse Search in Thistle Creek…” as it relates to this and it seems like this has been sitting as an unanswered question for quite some time.

        • Jake,
          I agree. I find her to be highly credible.

          Below is a portion of an email I sent to Cynthia earlier today and her response.

          Hi Cynthia,

          Hope all is well….Anyway, I was on HoD an someone was referencing a FF quote that you had shared that involved a reporter and Mr. Fenn saying something about searchers being within 200’ and not knowing because they “left” the poem. So I visited your website and I didn’t see it listed as an “official” FF quote. Was just wondering if you considered it an official FF quote. Sorry I can’t provide more details on the actual quote.

          HER REPLY:
          “I consider it an official FF quote to the reporter, and me since I heard Fenn say it to her. I checked my book to see if I included that piece of conversation between the journalist and Forrest. It looks like I did not put that in my book, although I included some other exchanges between the two of them. Hope this helps. Good luck.”

          • Hey-O, Jeff –

            Thanks for reaching out, and for sharing Cynthia’s response; that’s about as nailed down as it’s gonna get.

            I may go back and re-read Margie Goldsmith’s articles; no urgency to it, just for grins. That little phrase (“left the poem”) sure got around for something with such an un-distributed origin.


          • Jake…I read all of the articles back then, and then read all of the ones I could find yesterevening and nada…

          • Just to kind of wrap this up, here’s a slightly longer version of the “left the poem” exchange (this one posted by Cynthia on her site last January) –

            ** ** ** I was part of a media project 6/17/2016 where the journalist said to Forrest “… But you’ve said, and I’ve read, that people have come within 200 feet of the treasure, is that what it is?”

            Forrest replied “And that’s an approximate but it’s pretty close because some people have told me exactly where they were and I recognize that spot and I know that it’s about 200 feet.”

            The journalist then asked “And why is it that they gave up before finding it?”

            Forrest answered “No, they didn’t give up. They left the poem. The whole key, nobody is going to happen on that treasure. I mean someone’s not going to find it on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. They’re going to have to figure out the clues and go to the poem.” ** ** **


          • I would love to hear the audio of that. I am also curious how accurate Forrest is on his ability to estimate distance (I am not that accurate without a GPS). 200 feet is 2/3 the length of a football field.

  33. Have searchers in the field been enjoying wild raspberries? I did some day hikes in New Mexico past couple of weeks and came across some bushes thick with them. What a treat. Obviously, if you’re not familiar with edible vs dangerous berries, don’t learn in the field. Raspberries are pretty safe — they look like store bought ones, just smaller, but juicy and incredibly flavorful. For others, the general rule that I learned as a Boy Scout is if you become violently ill shortly after eating a wild plant or its fruit, you probably shouldn’t have.

    I’m confident I was never 200′ or 500′ from the chest. Sometimes I was in the Rocky Mountains, but whenever I was near sage and pinon, I was not. Looking forward to returning in a few weeks for aspen color.

    • Wild raspberries, wild rhubarb, and huckleberries while out searching about this summer. Of course, I also know where to find huckleberries locally but my stash from last year hasn’t been used up yet.

    • Aardvarkbark,
      I think your Boy Scout experience is wise. Lol. Buy a little pocket handbook on edible plants. That will save you from having to experiment.

  34. Sandy,
    Very interesting to read about your connection to Poudre Canyon area. Kinda eerie to hear your connection to all the places that burned down. Hope this pattern hasn’t followed you through your life. Lol

    I’ve looked at Never Summer Mtns also. Couldn’t see a solve there.

  35. FYI From KPro-
    The Gypsy Illustration went for $8100.09 !! in a separate silent auction hosted on Cynthia’s website…
    Mike will send out exact numbers, but we are about $43,000+ for JDiggins…
    You can still buy tickets for all the other wonderful items being raffled off next week…
    Jamie will be at the event!!!
    To see the items and buy tickets…:

    • Wow, that is so awesome. Again, the community comes up big. Just good people all around. Thanks Dal, Cynthia, Mike, and all those who provide a forum for us to come together. You guys do some great work.

  36. Idle, the ruler tool on Google Earth is an easy way to measure distances in various units of measure.

    Re: Forrest and distances,
    I suppose all that cockpit time,
    gets one pretty good on distances..
    Also, if Forest has done any surveying,
    I guarentee you after a couple of thousand
    “pulls” with a standard 100 fg
    steel chain (tape)., one gets a rral
    good feel for distances.

  38. Idle Dreamer, FF is a pilot. I’m sure he can estimate distances. You have to, in order to fly a plane.

    Thanks bv fir the quote Jake.

  39. This may have been answered before but I thought I would ask. Why does the official Yellowstone map, the parking area and trailhead marker…all for Grebe Lake…not lead to Grebe Lake? It leads to Wolf Lake.
    Once I got past the hour mark on my walk I knew something was wrong. The blisters on my heels are not fans of their nearly 10 mile round trip mistake.

    • Also Dal, Toby from the Gypsy Kiss will donate 1 hour on his vlog to someone from the raffle, to discuss whatever they choose, if we reach 50000…that’s my understanding. …

      • Some people gave a lot more than $100.00, to people they don’t even know. That’s uplifting in itself. $134 dollar average, not too bad…Everyone should be proud that they gave, it’s to a good cause, and is proof of the good constitution of the community. So Forrest, yes or no, is home of Brown a clue or not? (pertaining to what the average searcher would consider clues compared to hints within the chase for the chest):)(thought I’d try).

    • What a great bunch of folks on here , helping out a friend in need!
      All the best you and yours , Jdiggs!

  40. How many natural warm water lakes (no dam) are there outside of YNP in WY/MT/CO/NM? I’m pretty sure there are none that I know of. This leads me to believe wwwh is the headwaters, of a creek up to rivers that are warm, that are high enough to take down a canyon that is “too far to walk”. If a river/creek that is warm and meets cold water is out as the water is still moving.

    Something to ponder.

    • Also: If one goes up a creek/river to its headwaters does the water halt/stop? In theory, yes and on a map. “Begin it”, isn’t it true at the headwaters of a creek/river is where it starts and begins? The condition is warm water, not trout water.

      Just to ponder.

    • If you look up the word ‘river’ in the dictionary, you will find that the definition is a flowing/moving body of water. So if the words in the poem mean what they say, as we have been told, then the answer to WWWH cannot be river. Just my opinion.

      The definition of lake however is gives a possible fit. Merriam-Webster says a lake is “an inland body of standing water”

  41. What do you mean by “natural warm water lakes”, Charlie?

    There are plenty of undammed natural lakes in the Rocky Mts outside of YNP. I could give examples if I knew what you’re excluding.


    • No dams, warm water, not trout habitat and might also include to the touch, [ones warm to an other’s is different], in that range.

      • “Warm” and no trout – I don’t have the expertise to negotiate those two conditions.

        All the big lakes in Yellowstone have trout.

        I guess I’m not following what you’re trying to zero in on, and I don’t know how to go about verifying your criteria for lakes in and/or out of YNP in any useful way on a large enough scale. Or even how to offer any helpful suggestions.


  42. Lugnutz,
    How come I’ve never heard of Fraser CO before? I certainly see some interesting possible connections there. Is there something specific you are referring to? You can Email if you want. butterflygarden00 at yahoo dot com.

    • Flutter –

      I don’t haven’t any secrets like the tomato hornworm.

      The name Fraser means freezer and Fraser is the coldest town in the lower 48. A growing season of only 7 days in a good year.

      But eventually the water there warms as all water does.

    • There are some BIG fish, mostly browns, in the Fraser River below Tabernash. According to local lore and legend, it was a favorite spot for Dwight Eisenhower when he could escape out west for fishing. His old getaway cabin is in ruins now and not too many people know how to get there…I have friends in low places so I’m lucky to have explored that area with rod in hand more than a few times.

      • Another fun thing about Fraser (Icebox of the Nation at one time) is Winter Park Ski area, which is actually 2 ski areas combined; Mary Jane and Winter Park. Winter Park has an Alice in Wonderland theme for naming ski runs, and Mary Jane has railroad themed ski runs. Classic rabbit hole…the term for which probably came from Alice in Wonderland.

  43. Help:

    I’m looking for a quote please Gracias…

    Did Forrest say someplace a kid looking for a new fishing hole might location the chest on an accident…

  44. Hi SL,

    You should have been lauded for your brilliance with this post:

    Warm = comfortable
    Waters = amniotic fluid
    Halt = break

    “Reflecting back to the year when my awareness took its first few steps”
    “You need to start at the BEGINNING. You need to figure out where warm waters halt.”

    For anyone who has not read the poem with this interpretation you need to go back and read it again, don’t cease from exploration. Think about conception, AND|DNA, our journey through life and the troubles we’ll face, the end of our lives and what options we may be facing, Forrest’s advice for us:
    We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.

    If this is the correct way to interpret WWWH then all we have to do is start mapping the geo spots to the clues. Colorado’s Embryo Lake or Birthday Peak look to be good initial spots to check out but everyone will have their own methods for defining the 9 clues and getting to the chest.

  45. Lady V,
    Thank you for the education on clouds! I have believed for over a year that WWH in a cloud. But, obviously I dont know enough about clouds. I have been considering the wrong type of a cloud. I sincerely appreciate your explanation. That really helps!

  46. I Had a dream last night that I pulled up to an old 50’s style full service gas station with a duck on the sign. ( kind of like the Sinclair dinosaur, only a large duck )Everything was in black and white and I was driving a big ol Black caddy. Forrest himself was the pump jockey and asked me “where are you headed , ma’am ?” I told him I was looking for a treasure somewhere in the Rocky Mountains.
    “Welp, you got to begin it where warm waters halt, then you take it in the canyon down”…
    It went on like this until he recited almost the whole poem like someone giving directions to an out- of -towner. Even told me that if I got to a certain place then I’d gone too far. It was great , and thank you, Forrest , for topping off my oil!

    • You didn’t happen to pull over and pick up a hitchhiking Elvis a mile down the road from the gas station, did you?

      Next time you have the dream, be sure to note where you are when it becomes full color.

      What on earth did you have as a bedtime snack?

      • Nope, no Elvis … it was movie night for me and my youngest son, so I had hot tamales, cheese popcorn, Junior Miints and a peach soda to wash down before bed. Maybe if I had a peanut butter banana sandwich I would’ve seen Elvis.

    • Hi, Veronica S!

      That is a great dream!!!

      Secret: I’m the one providing the analysis of ~5 chase-related dreams & dream interp books for Jamie’s (jdiggins) raffle on Thursday! I’ve been a dream researcher/expert for a few decades and have been interviewed many times about dreams and their meanings by various media outlets, FWIW. Dreams don’t tell you the answers to things exactly, but when you’ve been working on a problem, consciously and intently, often you get clues to the answer you’re seeking because our unconscious is working not the problem 24/7, even while we’re not aware of it–making remote connections, synthesizing, taking in info below our awareness that doesn’t get our waking attention. There are several historical examples of famous creative people and scientists getting whole answers from their dreams, but that’s the result of thousands of hours of working on the problem (they don’t just present the answer from nothing!). Dreams use the language we used before we learned to talk; mostly a metaphorical visual language (for instance, ducks have down, and we can duck down entering a small place).

      That being said, here is something to try: write down the first noun in your dream. Then around it, like spokes to a wheel, write everything it makes you think of (just i.e., dinosaur – old, dinosaur – massive, dinosaur – bones, etc.) until you have no associations left. Then do that for the next noun and the next, until you’ve reached the end of the dream [don’t forget, For(r)est is a noun!]. You should be able to trace an alternate “story” to the manifest, dream one you wrote above, kind of like how each TTOTC story has an underlying story in addition to the story you read in the book, IMO. Then, you can close your eyes and envision each scene (“old 50s style full service gas station with a duck on the sign”) as vividly as you can. Concentrate on the image and watch what it changes into. That will be a clue as to what the image means to you.

      There are no universal symbols in dreams, except for water. They’re mostly all personal, a result of your own experiences and associations, and the rest, culture.

      I hope this helps!

      • Lady V,
        Thank you for the advice and insight and interpretation! Like many of us on here, my brain never fully shuts off on the subject . All of my biggest and best Ah-ha! moments seem to come at night when I’m trying to sleep. Show of hands if anyone has dreamed very vividly about finding the chest?
        I just remember waking and thinking to myself, stay out of the rabbit holes and focus on getting to my destination. Straight forward and listen to what he is saying. However vague, it’s still directions.
        Thank you Lady V. You have given me a lot to think about.

          • Charlie M–you have only 3 seconds to remember the dream once you open your eyes. Trying lying there & go over the dream in your mind before you open your eyes then immediately jot down a couple of words–that will help!

            Veronica S–yellow can mean “caution” in countries where there are stoplights (we all have loads of experience with yellow=proceed with caution by the time we reach adulthood). But it could also suggest “chicken.” It also encompasses the words YELL and LOW.

        • My most vivid dream about the chase…I was fishing in a beautiful river with deep green and blue pools. I caught a large brilliant yellow snake, which was eating another vivid yellow snake. Twin yellow snakes. I remember being both incredulous and dismayed; I did not want to take one snake, let alone 2 snakes, off my hook. On the other hand, I had never seen a yellow snake before so was quite fascinated with it all. As an aside, I dream of fishing a LOT, and that’s where I catch my biggest fish!!

          I had been searching NM intently for a couple of years at that point, with a few solutions in Colorado – in part because I live in southwest Colorado and love northern NM. Easy to search/explore a couple of times a month etc.

          I was steadfastly against Yellowstone for all the usual reasons. I interpreted my dream to mean the Snake River, Yellowstone. I redirected my efforts at that time. I hope I win Lady V’s dream interpretation book at the raffle! Thanks to both Lady V and Veronica for bringing up a topic many of us can relate to.

          • Sandy- now that is an interesting dream! And a pretty cool interpretation! I think I read somewhere about yellow being a warning of some sort in dreams . ( or was it nostalgia?) I would ask Lady V for sure. Thank you for sharing

          • Sandy,

            I guess my dreams don’t help, I vaguely remember what my dreams are about for just an instant when I wake. After that one instant the dream is gone. Maybe I’m not as a deep thinker as I have thought.

            Interesting post.

          • :). You’re welcome, Sandy! I think you live very near a general solve which was my first solve I never did BOTG about. It’s so beautiful there!

            So much in your dream, too: Twin. Yellow. Snake. Deep pools. Vivid. Hook. It’s possible you could find a location that encompasses all of those images put together–or already have, but didn’t consciously notice it! (I believe there are several locations in the RMs with snake-like names, for example…but you might try associating to “snake” to see what they might symbolize to YOU!)

          • Lady V, thank you for your thoughts…your ideas are much appreciated. By the way, I often get phone call’s in my dreams. And have brief conversations. Often from people who are no longer alive. I did Hospice nursing for a few years and have worked with the chronically ill and dying for decades. I look at those sorts of dreams as a portal, so to speak.Think I’ll look for a portal, as well.

      • Lady V,
        I’ve been a student of my personal dream world for some time, and I’m quite interested in the practical aspects of deeper acces to the subconscious mind during wakeful states. What caught my attention is this statement: “Dreams use the language we used before we learned to talk; mostly a metaphorical visual language ….”

        Though I suspect there is a wide chasm between deep-sleep and wakeful dreams (deep daydreams) in both how the thoughts are formed and their subsequent interpretation if, indeed, interpretation is even required in the case of wakeful dreams, I am nonetheless very interested in this “metaphorical visual language” and would like more insight. I will research this, but if you have a start point or name/names of subject matter experts, it would be greatly appreciated.

        Thank you.

        • Hi Joe,
          You might look into the original cognitive dream theorist’s work, Calvin Hall, who wrote the definition of dreams used by researchers: thinking while asleep in images. You’re right–daydreams are very different from night dreams.

          • Hola Lady V,
            Thank you for your response and the information provided. I ran a few cursory searches yesterday but didn’t find anything earth shattering, nor did I run across Calvin Hall and his work – keeping my hopes up with your information.

            Thanks again for the referral and affirmation.

      • Lady V, our “metaphoric visuals” may result from the brain activity of the dreams being only on the side of the brain that doesn’t have language. I remember some dreams with billboards and newspaper headlines, and I could never read them, not a single word. As I tried to zoom in, the letters just turned to chicken scratches instead of words (like cartoonists would use) That gas station had a picture of a duck, not the word ‘duck’. At least, thats my experience, I’ve been curious about it for years. Does anyone hear music or words in their dreams?

        • Yes, people have heard music in dreams (esp. musicians), and conversations do happen, but not as often as in waking life, and that’s true for people all over the world. It’s very unusual to be able to read in dreams, but that happens (rarely), too– often as the dreamer is moving out of REM into wakefulness.

          If you think about it, ff’s poem is quite visual. I was going to say, you could make a little drawing or painting out of every line–but that’s not quite right. Hmmm…

          Don’t want to highjack the thread…I do believe dreams can help us to “see” what we might’ve consciously given less attention to.

    • Definitely makes an interesting, and worthwhile, read, thanks Vox. It also reads in line with the more common quote, “Imagination is the mother of invention”. Essentially without imagination we would have no new knowledge as we would only be able to learn what was already known. Which of course leads to thinking outside the box which is probably why Forrest has stated we have to think inside the box as otherwise our imaginations will run wild, or as the article states, “This shadow world – the state that Keats called “Negative Capability, that is when a man is capable of being in uncertainties, Mysteries, doubts, without any irritable reaching after fact & reason” – is where the imagination is at home, and so are ghosts and dreams and gods and devils and witches. There, possibilities are unlimited, and nothing is forbidden”.

      In the end it seems almost conflicting but really isn’t. There is no end to exploration as the end of one journey is the beginning of another.

      The above is just my reflection and thoughts after reading it and until now hadn’t really allowed myself to explore why Forrest made the statement. The one thing I need to stop doing is limiting my imagination once it is inside the box.

  47. A matter of honor and character: an odd end

    At times in my life, I have been less than true, less than pure, less than my full potential. Haven’t we all? It is the definition of being human I think.

    At those times, my greatest wish is that I recognize my faults, own them, and apologize to those hurt – in reality or perception- by my humaness. That, to me, doesn’t excuse, or erase, or prevent future business; it seeks to own my humaness while showing respect to other humans. It is a matter of honor and character to me. I wish nothing from any human without those characteristics: honor and character.

    From reading ttotc, what are your thoughts? Are these characteristics important to Forrest as well? If so, examples? If not, examples?

        • You’re welcome. To ask the same question to you, do you believe honor and character is important to Mr. Fenn from the stories in TTOTC? If so, other than the example I had given, where else? I believe there are more in this book.

          • In my heart, I believe honor and character are very important to Forrest. Many, many stories relay these as important to him. But what we say and do may be in conflict at times. We are all human after all.

            I suppose I’d look for an example in real life. Of when forrest apologized when he clearly was human…less than honest, true, etc.

            I hope to find an example of that to confirm it is important to him outside of the book.

          • Hello Twingem. I’m not sure why you feel you need to search for this kind of answer. With each of us being human, I believe we’ve had to apologize many times in our lives, but do we need to let others know that we have?

    • This is a compelling question, Twingem, and one which no one seems to (maybe wants to) consider relevant. Yet, many spend much of their savings searching for something they are hoping a man is truthful in saying that he hid. That man’s honor and character are worth considering, for sure.

      To read TTotC, one finds an author who was fired from both jobs he writes about having as a youth, plus lying about being a student at a college. And one who is spiteful toward others whether they be neighbors or employees at a local book store.

      Ignoring those anecdotes, one cannot escape his tenure as a business owner in Santa Fe. SF has a small business community. Surely, through the Chamber or local charities, he would have been recognized and celebrated for his contributions to various causes and the betterment of his community. Surely. That would have been covered by local media, so easily discoverable.

      Then there’s the charitable cause of the book sales for cancer victims. The cases of those individuals who have personally benefited as a result must have been the subject of media attention, also easily discovered via internet search.

      Those searchers spending much of their savings seeking the treasure would surely confirm the honesty and quality of character of the one who hid it prior to undertaking such venture. I find your query to be wholly legitimate.

      • Hello aardvarkbark. Some of the things you’ve mentioned, I don’t agree with. Charities don’t have to tell the outlet where they get their funds. Think of places like the Ronald McDonald house, hospitals such as St. Jude, and many other places. Are the donors necessarily listed? I believe HIPAA may have limits to what one may find. Think of The Children’s Museum in Santa Fe, and nameless other places we either know or don’t. What is this questioning truly about?

      • Aardvarkbark: I may be reading too much between the lines in your post, but I’m sensing some disenchantment … perhaps even bitterness. If that’s close to an accurate reading of your tea leaves, can you share your reasons why? If it’s disappointment over failure to find the chest, you’re certainly aware that you have 100% company in that area.

        • No disenchantment at all. I will continue to own property and joyously hike in the search area with my dogs regularly regardless. I was merely defending Twingem’s question regarding honor and character, and relating that to multiple interactions I had with folks in SF over the past few weeks. I think it’s relevant.

          But I do come back to a f quote you brought back to the boards’ attention a couple weeks ago Zap — something about an ‘average’ person being able to follow the clues.

          It’s been eight years. Is everyone (every. one.) here so sub-average?

          • aardvaarkbark,
            Average can mean “a single value”. So a single individual could potentially follow the clues even if “the average” person cant.

      • I really believe the recent article that was shared with us shows Forrest Fenn to be a very honorable and honest person. Remember the young boy whom Forrest allowed to make a mold of a horse hechad sculpted?

        Forrest in no way promised he would make bronze from it. Many people “say” they will do things and then never really do– neither did they really intend to do so.
        But this young lad receives the bronzed horse in the mail from Forrest. Forrest didn’t “have” to do this. But his heart led him to do so. Over the time I have been in this search (2 years) I’ve grown to trust and admire Forrest Fenn far more than I did when I started.

    • Honor is earned, character is a perception by others.
      No need to list examples that are throughout his books.

      A robot could have honor and character.
      As I said many times, you need compassion.

    • I have read all the stories in the TTOTC book dozens of times each. I don’t think there is any special message that Forrest was trying to convey.

      In the Epilogue he only hopes that we treat each other and the planet better.

      He has been honored himself in the past but didn’t rest on those laurels. His advice (if I can summarize correctly) is to hustle and continue learning; rewards will follow.

      Honor and character are important to everybody. I don’t think following that theme will help to discover the treasure. I think the puzzle in the poem is more fun and adventure themed.

  48. Yes, sometimes we do. Space and all. It can determine fact from fiction. Beyond the 85%. If one can manage it personally, publically is the only avenue, yes? But if persi ally is an option, one should surely take it…I agree.

    • Without knowing [ what on earth ] “persi ally” is, it’s kinda hard to opt for it.
      As always, IMO.

    • Hi Dal: Thanks for forwarding the link! You no doubt spotted some errors. The Facebook story erroneously starts with the caption: “THIS MILLIONAIRE BURIED TREASURE IN THE ROCKIES”. They show an earlier incarnation of the TFTW map where the upper right corner has the word “highlighted” misspelled at “highlihted.” Then, perhaps the biggest error is the caption “FILLED WITH CLOSE TO 40 POUNDS OF GOLD”. Immediately afterward is the caption “SOMEWHERE IN THE ROCKY MOUNTAINS” with a background picture of the tunnel view of Yosemite Valley in California. 😉 Slick production, but pretty high number of errors for the short duration of the clip.

  49. The Chase is really amazing. Right now I am watching Huell Howser talking about Joshua trees on an episode of “California’s Gold”. The ranger he is interviewing said that John C. Fremont called the Joshua tree “the most grotesque member of the Plant family”.

    I immediately remembered that Forrest said that hiding the treasure was “the most grotesque thing he had ever done”. I then remembered the SB about Gene Scott and how he preached about “prophets”.

    I know this sounds strange but could Joshua have something to do with where the Treasure is hidden? Why would hiding it be “grotesque”? I know this is off the wall but thought I’d share it.

    • Hi Sparrow: you’re mis-remembering the word Forrest used. In the Richard Eeds’ interview Forrest said “I thought it was the most atrocious thing that I’d ever done.”

      • LOL. That figures. Thanks Zap. That has to be one of the most grotesque and atrocious posts I’ve ever made. Thank you for correcting me.

      • Hello Zaphod. What are your thoughts to atrocious and grotesque when followed along the lines in a thesaurus when both have some kind of connection?

      • Hi Pdenver: I think Forrest likes to use provocative and unexpected words sometimes. When he wrote “atrocious” I think he probably meant “outrageous”. Like when he uses “diabolically” instead of “diametrically”. We all know what he means, so the malaprop isn’t really distracting.

        As for grotesque, I find myself noting a similarity to Willie’s dear departed predecessor, Tesuque.

        • Gosh Zaphod, I don’t recall grotesque being used with Tesuque. I’ll have to go back and see if I can find the scrapbook.

        • Pdenver: Huh?! No-no-no! Similarity between the two WORDS. Forrest would never have used grotesque to describe little Tesuque!

          • Zap, Remembering way way back to an art history class in the 1960’s, I think ‘grotesqueries’ was the name given by archeologists to the hanging lights/lanterns/chandeliers they found when unearthing old Roman ruins. 10th century Humanisim and interest in documenting the past was beginning (the dark ages of magic & religion began to fade} The lamps were hung by chains from the ceiling and could be lowered and raised to refill the oil. OS2

        • Can’t help but think there’s a connection of a different sort between “diabolically” instead of “diametrically”.

        • Zap, I didn’t get that one. How could the South China Sea seemed diametrical instead of diabolical?

          • Oz10: I refer to Forrest’s comparison of his writing style with that of William F. Buckley: “While his method is on the Technicolor end of the writing spectrum, mine is on the black and white. That’s okay with me because our composing modes are diabolically opposed to each other.”

          • PDenver: between what and what? For instance, diametrical and diabolical are not antonyms. They share the same first 3 letters and last 4 letters. That’s why it’s a malapropism, and somewhat humorous as a result.

          • Pdenver: yes, I get the opposites between color & B&W, and that would all work handily if Forrest used the word “diametrically.” But he didn’t. He chose diabolically, which is a very different word, and is not used to indicate opposites.

          • HI Astree –

            I have known you to be more collaborative on another blog site.

            Would you care to shed some light on how BRoaden and Pointing Out hold significance?

            Thank you!

          • Hi pdenver,

            I don’t know if I can make the connection with Angel Fire. What does come to mind from the different uses of diabolical or diabolically and no place for the meek is from the chapter ‘The long way home’ or (long road).

            There is a place between Shoshoni and Casper called ‘Hells Half Acre’. I wonder if the Fenn family stopped there sometime.

          • Hello Oz10. Although I do not know whether or not his family stopped there, I truly feel that they have, only by comparing the many times my family have visited Yellowstone only to stop there each time on our way home.

      • F also used atrocious regarding Skippy P.50
        “…Skippy, was always doing things that I thought were both atrocious and astonishing. He was kind of a god to me.”

    • Not grotesque, Sparrow, for what it’s worth.

      “I thought it was the most *atrocious* thing I’d ever done.” ff


    • Cool and one thing people should consider before leaving feedback, as there is already a negative feedback review, is that don’t give negative reviews simple because it doesn’t tell you exactly where the treasure is located. Plus don’t leave a review if you didn’t watch it simply because you didn’t like the price. If you don’t like it after watching than that is a respectful review.

      Just my 10 cents as I really dislike how anything related to the solve gets people leaving negative feedback unfairly.

  50. Time to turn over a log, ehem.

    Appalachian mountains. If you can make the connection between applilachiam mountains and Colorado, you are ahead of 99.99% of searchers imho.

    And that little girl fron India…whom ever was targeting the art ” in dia”, Forrest is so funny!

  51. “I thought it was the most *atrocious* thing I’d ever done.” ff

    Just wondering what definition you ( the group ) used for atrocious? It’s always fun to see how people view things differently.

    I think monstrous fits best for my solve, he stands around 20ft tall. I would call that monstrous. IMO

    • Birdie
      fenn’s first thought was to have his bones found with the trove… essentially telling searchers / seekers to rob his grave-site. While he ruined the story, the idea was implanted.
      A second thought is of the area itself… admire; “approval or high regard.” What is it about the location that would give the idea of *atrocious* to the of feeling “sorry” about?

      ~ “Well you know, it’s out of my hands now really. When I hid that treasure chest, there was nobody around. And I was walking back to my car and I looked around and I started laughing. And I said out loud, Forrest Fenn did you really do that? And I started laughing. I thought it was the most atrocious thing that I’d ever done. But, in the back of my mind, I told myself that if I’m sorry tomorrow, I can go back and get the treasure chest. But the more I thought about it, I said, no I’m not going to do it. And I told myself it’s out of my hands now. I’m an interested bystander at this point.”

      • Hello Seeker. I’m so glad you posted the quote by Mr. Fenn. In particular, “I’m an interested bystander at this point.” A couple things come to mind with this quote in regards to other things he’s written in his book, and posted. A couple synonyms for “bystander” are “couch potato” and taking that synonym to “drone”. Drones were mentioned over at Jenny’s not long ago. Also, “bystander” to mean “fly on the wall”. Remember Mr. Fenn’s story about he and Skippy being in the barn and zapping flies on the wall? I feel there’s more to this than meets the eye.

        • PD,
          You bring up the synonyms leading to drone. I’m not understanding the full connection for the fly zapper, however, if drone being used as a bystander… I think the meaning of drone; being a sound is interesting.
          Part of observing is hearing as well as visual, and we do have a line in the poem that seems to apply. In the poem, is that line meant as to fenn or more in-lines with the idea of the location involved?
          I’m not sure if this was where you were going with your thoughts… but in my mind, when things are stated as ATF’s they probably have the poem and location in mind.
          LOL so now [ using your idea synonym of bystander to drone ] we also have fenn’s comment about knowing about ‘drones’ [which many refer to as an aircraft] won’t assist. Do you think ‘drone’ in the second comment is the same as the/your prior idea?

          Just curious

          • Hello Seeker. Fly “zapper” sounds like something to do with electricity. Bystander may be to observe/observation point/peak/overlook (bird’s eye view). Together, a place on the map may be Observation Peak. At least, I think I remember a place being called this on a map. (Giggle.)

          • Lost my line of thought a little. My original thought before I posted Observation Peak was Electric Peak. Looks like it’s going to be one of those days. 🙂

          • I do like the idea of an observation station [for lack of a better term] PD. I was just wondering about ‘sound’ being an important factor. [lines; SHMAALG and IYABAITW] as to what would the location possibly have we should listen for.
            The last stanza seems to imply sound being at the location [ minus trickling water, birds, snorts, and chatter from the wild and ferocious chipmunks ] Which is a definition of drone as a sound [buzz, whirling, rumble, purr etc.]

            But, should fenn’s use of the word bystander be a usage as drone/observe only… what are we listening for?
            LOL, remember I’m a multiple meanings guy.
            Should ‘bystander’ have some thought provoking idea in the comment, could it be as both hear and listen as we observation of sight?
            So, i’m back to my conundrum… if knowing about drones will not assist-?- are we barking up the wrong tree?
            Was ‘drone’ in that comment only meant as a flying camera, or a clever use of the word, drone?

            Just as a reminder of the comment; in part;
            “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location,

          • Hello Seeker. Just a brief thought to “drones not assisting”. Do “drones” aka “couch potatoes/lazy bones” “assist”? Let me think a little bit about the rest of your post. 🙂

          • Seeker, “Hear me all and listen good” may refer to “observing”. It’s very possible the two you’ve mentioned puts an “X” on the spot.

          • PD ~ ‘ It’s very possible the two you’ve mentioned puts an “X” on the spot.’

            Oh C’mon… where that X your talking about? lol.
            No really, is there an X… cuz all I’m seem to be seeing is my eyes looking at each other. I think a lot of folks are actually looking for an X [ marks the spot ]… Although the idea might be more about the lines in the poem that cross each other. Using the points to show a spot, rather than stopping point to point.
            the idea of observation; meaning we see all the clues. I’m waiting for Dal’s summary of his solution, later tonight. I’m curious of his smaller scale method… not location… but the method of how he puts it together.

          • Hello Dal. I look forward to Dal’s report, too. There were plenty of spots I wanted to check, just to see the areas, but the family did more fishing than anything else when we were there. As for the “X,” I guess it’s in spirit. 🙂

      • Seeker,

        I’m an interested bystander at this point.”

        Who’s the bystander? I don’t believe it’s Mr. Fenn, IMO I’ve seen the resting spot & it is guarded by 2 things, I’ve only shared one.

    • I believe Zap mentioned above that *outrageous* seems to fit Fenn’s meaning…and I agree on the surface. As usual Fenn has tossed a bit of kerosene in the fire…*Atrocious* does cause the reader to pause and perhaps feel obligated to think about further implications involving the [act of hiding} and/or the specific [location]. For sure…he is definitely NOT handing out concrete evidence of any kind.

      • Ken,
        Plain English, right?!
        Atrocious can mean; shocking, surprising, wicked, flagrant etc.
        And not all meanings are of a bad thing.
        I tend to agree fenn was thinking about the entire act of placing a chest full of gold at the place he intended to die and challenge all to find his bones and the prize for doing so… in the original, and possibly final act, of going to his final resting place.

        Then again, why not use a word like flagrant or brazen or even shameless.. without the idea of ‘bad’ by any sense of the act? It is interesting to think about.

        • Seeker…I’m pretty sure Fenn has not been complying or paying attention to the *Plain Writing Act* signed into law by Obama in 2010. I think Fenn has made it fairly (un)clear exactly what he means most of the time. Ha ha…so far, the joke has been on us…however, I think some may be catching on…to what I am not certain.

      • Ken, yes it does. Just like the ‘laughing out loud’ comment. Almost like the feeling right after a mischievous act has been done. Why did hiding it ‘there’ caused such a reaction?

        • I’m pretty sure it(the act) must have been an adrenaline rush for him. Giddy up with excitement so to speak. I’m focusing on both[the act and the location} causing that reaction….

        • Of course, realistically speaking, who will not be shaken by leaving over a million dollars worth of hard-earned assets somewhere in the mountains?

          Still, this place, where the chest lays may not be in a remote area. It may be close or even next to some area where visitors go regularly. That is my own understanding based on a few ATF comments.

          • Oz10…yes and yes. I like having a door # 3 option also.
            Interesting you mention *few ATF*…as that is what I had in mind as well….or at least toying with.

  52. Ok, the one chapter left out of his latest book dealt with Forrest Fenn’s writing style.

    I believe there is another Important reason why this chapter was left out – think “Important Literature.”

    Anyway, on another topic of important literature is Forrest replies on Mysterious Writings. At the time of this response, I was focused on different things but I find it very educational to go back over old answers given further insights. With that said, remember this answer;

    “That question is too hypothetical for me to answer accurately, especially since the next few world wars might destroy the treasure site. f”

    This made me think to look up the top US nuclear missile targets:

    Looking at this makes me think that NM is out, Colorado between Denver and Colorado Springs/NORAD is in, Cheyenne/Fort Collins area is in, and the Missoula, MT area is in… What do you guys think?


    • There is a major site just NW of Santa Fe, so northern NM is not completely devoid of sites. Also it looks like there’s a target somewhere close to Lummi Island. Dal, are you up to something that you haven’t been telling us?

    • There are still ICBMs in the ground around Great Falls, MT, also.

      Wasn’t there also a comment by ff during the North Korean nuclear saber rattling, referencing if N Korea nuked the US, the TC would be obliterated?

      I found this, but can’t find the quote I’m thinking of:

      From Oct 2017: Is there anything that would make you go get it?” Fenn is asked in his own still study, with all its handicrafts and manuscripts fashioned by and for the dead. “If North Korea threatens to nuke New York City unless I go get it, I’ll go get it,” he answers. Then: “What makes you think I can go get it?” https://www.macleans.ca/news/world/on-the-trail-of-forrest-fenns-hidden-treasure/

    • GCG,

      I don’t know much about this topic, but Los Alamos in NM is not considered a good enough target? Anyways, I say NORAD will be on the top of the list target-wise. Only I thought they were south of Colorado Springs.

    • did you find the missing link town gone today stay away that starts withi forgot but it writen down some where got to get my thinker on darn it oh well have fun be safe not sure it has a lick to do with this chase any way

  53. Dear fellow searchers, does anybody have some notes or probes of FF‘s handwriting? I do have the inscription for Bob and Kate and I found a note to Chuck and Terry…
    I would like to compare these to a note I have found…

  54. Hi All;

    Hope that everyone had a GREAT Labor Day. I did. I, and my search team headed to Wyoming again. No Indulgence, but LOTS of treasures. Found several things that made us think that we had found Indulgence, but alas, NADA – It is bone dry where I am searching this year, so a couple of indicators of where we think that it might be have literally “Dried Up.” One spot, a spot I will call Spot #1 seems very promising, but we will need a metal detector to make sure, since it is so bone dry. Still at it – Still have lots of hope, and a few clues that say we are on the right path. 🙂 Still Smilin’ JDA

    • JDA,
      Glad to see that you and your family had a good time.
      I worked Labor Day, the reason being is that I have millions of people on welfare that are depending on me for a monthly check. I just didn’t have the heart ❤️ to take it off and possibly disappoint someone.


    • Go get em’, JDA!! Don’t you just love that rush of being out there and finding possibilities? Makes ya feel like Indiana Jones! Have fun, sir!

    • JDA: passed through your home town yesterday and today, going to and from what you were doing. 🙂

        • did you miss the sale in aisle 9 ? in our stores *it* begins with the produce aisle…

          Do you *still* believe in your 1st clue…or are you *wavering* yet?

        • Hi Ken: yep, first clue is locked down and will never change. And like Dal, I now know yet another place that the treasure chest isn’t.

          Argillite: wish it were so! Intention all along was to ditch the return flight home and drive instead if my “correct solve” had been THE correct solve.

      • Why didn’t you drop me an email so we could have had a meal or a brew or something. I would have loved to have met you – DARN!

  55. I think the things Forrest doesn’t say are clues on how to find this treasure. For example: he doesn’t specify if the chest is buried because he doesn’t know if it is or not . He placed it somewhere in the mountains but did not know how long it would sit before being found. Logically, it could be covered by debris and dirt over 8-9 years . I don’t believe he was being elusive, he just didn’t want to commit to an answer that he wouldn’t know. (In my opinion, This tells me that initially, it wasn’t buried) imo
    I am learning to listen between the lines with Mr. Fenn.

  56. Has anyone noticed that nearly all failed solves have something in common? There is a gap in the poem; specifics are missing. We go from”just heavy loads and water high” to “if you’ve been wise…” All of us have been left in the woods or out standing in the field, not certain where to look next. There are too many places that fit the poem to that point. If my observation is correct, what is the source for more location-specific information?

    • Warren ~’…There is a gap in the poem; specifics are missing.’

      Is there? or are we conditioning ourselves to think everything in the poem has to be in consecutive order?

      Above [ in randawg’s post ] the wording from fenn’s comment says; If I laid the treasure chest on top of the ground and some weeds blew in there and covered it up is it buried?… right? Well, “In there” and “in the wood” are both in the poem, yet we know that “in there” is not a clue we needed deciphering [ at least at first ] Then we have “If you are brave and “int the wood”… apparently after the finding / retrieving of the chest… right?

      Are they fillers?
      No, I’m not talking about filling up a poem to make six stanzas, but more to the idea, they fill those “gap[s]” you think might be missing. We also have fenn telling us the path would not be direct without certainty of the “location” before hand. Is that Location the answers in stanza 5? is brave and “in the wood” the same as “alone in there” to be the same as; debris to blow “in there” covering/burying the chest over time?

      fenn has stated; it’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking… yet, as you asked – ‘what is the source for more location-specific information?’… LOL are there not [seemingly] three stanza that many hardly use when we read their failed solves? Most only concentrate on stanzas 2 3 4 and *not much* more.

      • I like how he said he would put the chest on top of the ground, but weeds would blow ‘in there”, to bury the chest or not, what is “in there”? Not a cave, not a man-made structure or otherwise. Is he actually hinting that it is inside something that weeds could blow into, or just being hypothetical? It wouldn’t be a hole in a tree because it is on the ground, sounds like a “seek-no-further” tree to me. Heavily surrounded by shrubs, bushes, and whatever else is in the forest. That would take care of “if you are brave and in the wood”.

        I think you are right on Seeker, most of the failed solves we have seen are geared towards being completed by the 16th line of the poem. Actually, the 16th line could not be a clue in this kind of thinking, since you would already know where the chest was, you wouldn’t need a clue to tell you to pick it up.

        I think most failed solves start the same way. The searcher picks some random place because it fits what they think is right, and force fit what they think are clues to places on a map, instead of solving the poem and letting it tell you where to start and eventually finish, or vise versa.

        I think there is backup info to all f’s clues and even hints. Something that confirms, or the fillers as you say. I have found that everything has some sort of backup, or two ways to come to a same conclusion.
        Example, the poem supplies coordinates, in which the poem also supplies a number in reference, the coordinates also supply the same number, in which could be seen as f’s signature, or initials, FF. Also, the clue lines used to find the coordinates also come up with the same number.
        Whether you call it a backup, filler, checks and balance, whatever, seems to me that f made sure that the person solving would have enough info under their belt to be totally confident.

        • Charlie;

          You say: “I like how he said he would put the chest on top of the ground, but weeds would blow ‘in there”, to bury the chest or not, what is “in there”? Not a cave, not a man-made structure or otherwise. Is he actually hinting that it is inside something that weeds could blow into, or just being hypothetical? It wouldn’t be a hole in a tree because it is on the ground, sounds like a “seek-no-further” tree to me. Heavily surrounded by shrubs,”

          I spent about 6 hours this week-end digging a hole in the center of a tree that had been burned out completely. All that remained of the tree was a hollow shell – I really thought that it was “In the wood.” Oh well, we sure had fun. Once we got to a level where we thought that – Any further is too far – we quit, and filled the hole back in.

          You then say: “I think you are right on Seeker, most of the failed solves we have seen are geared towards being completed by the 16th line of the poem. Actually, the 16th line could not be a clue in this kind of thinking, since you would already know where the chest was, you wouldn’t need a clue to tell you to pick it up.”

          Used to think that way, I no longer do. For me, now, stanza #1 is a prelude, ALL remaining clues in the next 5 stanzas.

          If you pick a RANDOM place to start, you will wind up nowhere – JMO.

          I think that the ATF comments are designed to help, and should be looked at carefully – JMO – JDA

          • Thanks ID. I have a bigger on e, one of my search team member just mis-placed it this week-end – JDA

          • I have that one an a F75 Ltd. Definitely have not found enough to payback my cost but even when detecting in a park it is more about the thrill.

            I also saw a similar tree and got really excited but no luck.

          • JDA, I agree that if you start in a random place, you will end up nowhere. I also agree that the ATFs are designed to help.

          • Our thinking JDA is getting closer.lol,:).
            I also have the 9 clues in stanzas 2-6.
            If you pick a RANDOM place to start, you will wind up nowhere – JMO..
            And the ATF’s are crucial, no doubt…
            (I’ll get you back to Anaconda someday)

        • Charlie,
          Regardless of fillers, info, whatever… The one comment [phrasing]~ he knew exactly where he wanted to “hide the chest” to make it difficult but not impossible to find.
          I think many take that as to be the clues, where I think it’s the hide itself… [ difficult but not impossible ]
          Other ATFs [phrasing]
          Throw myself on top of it.
          Leave my bone and take the chest.
          The chest will be there for all time or until one finds it.
          Thinking down the road thousands of years.
          Wind could affect it [ tornado ]. “nature makes her own rules”
          And an honorable mention for thought; Leave your partner in the car… Can’t two fit “in there”?

          Then we have “alone in there” and “in the wood” [ which I highly doubt means standing trees ]

          I given up on buried vs. hidden, and lean toward ‘conceal’ ~ But in a place that protects what is there [within reason] and not easily stumbled upon. IMO, it sound like the “hidey spot” itself is well hidden, large enough for only one.

          • Makes sense to me Seeker – Just wish I knew where – like 250,000 others – or is it 350,000?

            Hope to find out soon – JDA

          • Seeker,
            I think that “leave your partner in the car” is a hint and doesnt necessarily mean what you think it does. I also think there is a good chance that the TC is concealed, but not buried.

          • Seeker, I agree. You have not researched “seek-no-further” trees have you? Lol, they’re not standing. In fact, they are laying down, dead. Your whole post points to one, you just don’t know it.
            Conceal, good word. I agree.
            If you do research Eric Sloan’s seek-no-further, you will probably find dead apple trees. But take a look at some pics of a seek-no-further tree, really don’t see a tree. It’s in one of these scenarios that I believe the chest is concealed in. (see, already using your word,:))
            And yes, will be tough to get to, not impossible, just tough. With another 8 years of growth to conceal, (that’s two), from when he hid the chest, I’m sure getting into the wood alone will be filled with sticks, insects, creepy crawlies, and other disgusting things. Followed with some swearing I’m sure. I’m thinking finding the clues is somewhat easier than crawling into a bug infested, small, eco-system.
            Maybe that is why f laughed when he was returning to his car, he knows it’s not going to be fun retrieving the chest.

        • JDA ~ ‘I spent about 6 hours this week-end digging a hole in the center of a tree that had been burned out completely. All that remained of the tree was a hollow shell – I really thought that it was “In the wood.” ‘

          You’re kidding right? I mean, do you think fenn spent hours carving out a tree trunk only to wood glue it all back together for someone to come along later to spend a full afternoon re-digging it out?

          • I don’t think you read this right Seeker. It sounds like he believes fenn burned out the old tree trunk or found it burned and then maybe wood clued it back together.

          • There had been a fire at some time. It looked like lightening may have started the tree on fire. The fire completely burned the top portions of the tree and then burned out the complete center of the tree – leaving only a “Shell” that was about 8′ tall, and completely hollow – the “Back” was open so the “Circle” was not complete – only about 270 degree circle. “In the wood” seemed inviting.

            NO glue involved – Mother Nature did it all. What
            a fantastic thing to find. Sure seemed to fit.

            Oh well, another place that it”IS NOT”. – Sure had fun though – JDA

          • Maybe I did read it wrong… yet, 6 hours? I sure hope that was for the entire trip up back and whittling

          • I have to admit that I once dug a bunch of loose wood out of a tree stump looking for the chest. It was only about a 6 minute job though.

  57. I think the X in the poem is clearly “Just heavy loads and water high.”
    2 clues (2 lines that cross) that need to be figured in the same line of the poem.
    The blaze is very close to the X and possibly before the X explaining to past tense in that line of the poem.

    • I think maybe that is only clue number six.

      If you haven’t already, check out the downstream end of the flume ditch dug into the hill across the creek from the ranger station.

      • I ruled out all places that are not in the wood Muset.
        I’m more familiar with Taylor than Mike. I had to point out several discrepancies in what he said and showed him the real deal. Kinda funny seeing he spends his summers there.

        No, I also don’t think the chest is in a tree stump and can’t believe some have come to that after years of experience.

        I will continue to think forward and never go back like some do when they don’t find the treasure knowing I’m on the right trail towards reading the poem. That’s the easy part for me, the tough part is getting in the right area and marrying the places and things on a map.

        I’m stumped and logging out until lightning strikes my branches again.

  58. an intrest in what is said. i say this i loved it very penny is worth it the journey wrote this] down what id do if i found the treasure gventure we need to start a bronze fund of Forr est and his wife and girls with his book to be placed where the treasure is found ill pitch right now . ive steped back will you? if this starts let me know like jdiggins

  59. here are a few more words i wish to share to my friends and fenn ,family i feel apart of dont give up on me i will never give up on you sgood to see im not alone in time that is what its alll about remember me remember the word that describes that is old where we all get with time how you deal with it is the lessom i wrote more gown but i think thats enough for now other then the books are hooks and im on them all best wishes for safty jb titan is waving a bark for you all

  60. can be remembered its your choi done beut love you guys not afraid to say that your awesome to shizestay sFE OUT There all i watched uou flew over the treasure the mountains are the treasure fenn could fill a box with cotton and you wou;d sillf ind treasure itis there im not crazy but a piexe wanted tp say one more thing thank you for being real and helping jddiggins we all need a push over the hump once in a whilwe words of wisdome study learn retainw thats my pronlem but i love life sp forever live it toyour fullest abi;ity.

    • Jeff Burch,

      I don’t often post and you have probably never heard of me, but I’m familiar with your story. Sometimes we don’t realize how many lives we might touch, and I just wanted to say thank you. Blessings to you and Titan too,

      SeeN, AKA Cheryl N.

  61. sorry for the poor grimmer but we will get through it i learn im alive but got a long way tp go ill love getting there

  62. he will never be alone that;s the key word its so hard excepting age bothersome no matter who someone me or we but love i can give them a ring on tje phone take the journey so hard i except mem imj selfish i want every one to stay forever thats me thp love always jn the tears for this man may make a river tha will be where warm waters halt no matter where they ha;t our hearts will be with him and his always jb my mind may be 13 as wellgood hunting to you all

  63. Crazy odd dream last night! The chest was found!!!!!!

    Here is to hoping dreams really do one true and Forrest makes an announcement at the drawing tomorrow!

    • I was hoping to at least make one more BOTG this season before it was found, lol. Of course this probably applies to a lot of people.

      • Ha! I must be dreaming wrong…I’m not a multi-millionaire, own my own island or dating Jessica Alba.
        But then again, I’m a realist. I know I will never have my own island.

        • “No man is an island” – John Donne 1624

          “He’s a peninsula” – Jefferson Airplane 1967

          • JAK,
            Interesting quotes. If each mind is unique, what does that make each person? If not an island, at least a peninsula?

            As in life, so in The Chase – and vice versa. Perspective is always important. How many sides to a typical coin? To change perception, change perspective – and vice versa?

            Just having fun with words.

        • I dream of swimming with dolphins and manatees in warm fresh, brackish and/or salt water when the door to retirement opens to me. Maybe I’ll protect birds and/or turtles in my spare time…

      • I sure hope so. I think we are all ready for a beautiful ending.

        Tommorrow for Jamie will be perfect!

        • Hey, I’m back from BOTG was hoping to find it for Jaimie but could not get all the pieces to fit in the right spots… I dunno maybe Forrest moved it LOL…

          I’m sad I didn’t find it but I had such a great trip! The weather was perfect and West Yellowstone was just beautiful! I got to see Dal and his wife Kathy again as well as Diggin Gypsy and her husband John! It was a Blast even with no treasure found!

  64. This is in the news today in Montana:
    “Two people escaped serious injuries after their small plane hit a power line and crashed in Glacier County on Tuesday evening.”

    The reason for the crash, “The preliminary investigation by the Sheriff’s Office indicates that the pilot was circling at low altitude when he hit a power line; the pilot told authorities that he then crashed in a nearby field.”

    I wouldn’t be surprised if they were searching for Forrest’s treasure and literally ran into Heavy Loads. If you are flying, don’t fly low by power lines.

    • …or try to drive under freshly downed power lines after the pole gets blown out of the ground by lightning and leaves them slightly suspended above the ground…my last botg experience.

  65. One major thing that bothers me is the – 2 trips – done in one afternoon – statement.
    This is a man that sleeps very little and gets up before the birds chirp.
    I think he started before the sun rose and was finished in one afternoon.
    If this is true then add a mile or 2 to your destination.

    How many here over the age of 70 that don’t drink alcohol get up before the birds do?

    • I think when he finished hiding the trove, the time of day locally was “afternoon”.
      I don’t believe he hiked more than 4 miles on that specific day, while carrying
      more than 20 pounds of “trove” material, all after noon locally and before 6 PM
      locally. He is tricky, yes. He’s not the only trickster in this game. As always,

      • That’s what gets me tighterfocus,
        Done, could mean finished, and i just can’t wrap my brain around him not starting the hike from his car early in the morning. If i was going to hide the treasure, I would set out just before daybreak or around that time. If this is the case, then the treasure could be 3 or 4 miles from the parking spot although I think 16 miles total is probably too much for him.

        • We did a 10.5 mile hike in Yellowstone, and a little more than half of it was off trail. Hiking on trail that many miles is a lot of work for a person in a day, off trail hiking is another animal entirely. We were running out of water in our Camelbacks and pretty tired. Only carrying fly rods no less, not heavy loads of treasure. Still, no matter how much he walked off trail, I would say over 10 miles total would likely be out of the question IMO.

          • Aaron,
            Off trail hiking is a nightmare unless you’re not in the wood.
            I’m thinking there is a human trail in close proximity, maybe within 500′.

            I can see Forrest hiking on a well hiked trail for a couple of miles and then getting off the trail to bushwack less than a half mile and no more but probably less to hide the treasure. I may be pushing the envelope for an old man.

          • It can be tough for sure. I found though that the more I hike off trail the more I like it. It is more of a challenge and you can see some really cool things that nobody has seen or picked up. We ran across so many skeletons, skulls, antlers, and horns from deceased animals.

            I doubt FF would have bushwacked through and thick growth very far at 80. So maybe close to a human trail, depending on how challenging the off trail hike is.

          • NPS, NFS, Sierra Club, The Wilderness Society, Boy Scouts of America — pretty much EVERY single organization working hard to preserve the wilderness for generations to come to enjoy — encourage people to stay on trails in order to minimize negative impact.

            I understand that walking a stream to fish is different, but no one should be advocating for hiking off trail, both for environmental and safety reasons.

          • aardvark;

            You MAY be correct, but from this quote, I think that Forrest will not agree with you, and if you want to ensure yourself of a good vacation, and not one in which you find the treasure – stay on the trail:

            “Generally speaking, there are places where one should stay on established trails; Yellowstone is one. However, it reminds me of the worn-out axiom, “If you ain’t the lead dog, the scenery never changes. When I am in the mountains or in the desert, the last place I want to be is on a trail. Ain’t no adventure in that for me. There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty (sic) to where I hid the treasure”. f

            Forrest says that the TC is NOT in very close proximaty (sic) to a trail, so IF you are going to find it, you HAVE to get off trail – JMO – JDA

          • aardvarkbark,
            You’re barking up the wrong tree.
            So we can walk a stream and kill more life but we shouldn’t hike off trail because we may squash some moss.

            I encourage going off the trail now and then to see where the edge is.

            One of the reasons we should stay on some trails in YNP is the hot spring factor in being boiled.

            Glad you don’t make the rules to enjoy nature.
            Negative impact?
            Please touch.

  66. I am going to throw this out there from my trip. I can’t shake it.
    If you are in the Hebgen Lake/Quake Lake area. Take Refuge Point trail until you are lined up on the hill above the end of Ghost Ranch Road. You will be above the parking area. Take binoculars and look across Beaver Creek to the top of the hill. It’s a definite blaze. It’s not natural. Looks to be the right size. Bronze or mirrors? Gleams like gold.
    I just couldn’t figure out how to get there. I consulted maps, Rangers, everything. Trying to scale it would have been suicide.
    It’s still stuck in my mind. What is it?
    I would like to get input from anyone else that has seen this.

    • Stuff like that is why I bring my mavic. Makes it easier to align yourself with Google maps and find routes.

    • Been all over Refuge point and the mouth of Beaver Creek . You are correct about that incline at RP easy to godown but getting back up is another story . I had to stop 3 times because I was so winded and I’m pretty physically fit. For the life of me, I can’t place this blaze that you are talking about though.

  67. Thanks a bunch… Idle Dreamer…

    1st, I had to google “Mavic” (what the heck is a “mavic”) … Now you have cost me a $1000 dollars or more …!!!! That looks like so much fun. Use a drone to help research “your search area” … BRILLIANT!

    As a semi-disabled searcher, you have helped me further my research! THANKS!

    Boots on the ground has a new meaning!



    • You can get a reliable drone like the Parrot for $400-500 or since the new Mavic is coming out mine will likely drop in price. I bought the one that came with a case and 3 batteries. I also bought the goggles which are beyond amazing. Let’s you see from the drones perspective and you can move your head like you do in VR and the camera follows every movement of your head.

  68. Those goggles making the camera do like VR would be they way into my wallet. That’d be hard fer me to pass up. Couple that with thermal and i would be looking fer a bit of overtime to bring it all home. Thanks for the heads up on the advances. I reckon it’s time to pay Best Buy a visit.

  69. “In The Wilds Of New Mexico” by G. M. Fenn published by John W. Lovell. To old to find a publishing date.

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