Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixty-Five


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739 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixty-Five

    • Dal,

      Has Forrest confirmed lately the treasure is still where he hid it? With all of the fires in NM and Colorado, it is possible that the chest may have been disturbed by fire fighting activities…….if ,of course, he hid it in one of these states.


      • Tarheel-
        He doesn’t need to verify that it’s still there he told us he would tell us if it was found. I am confident he would tell us if it’s findability were also compromised by fire or volcano 🙂

        Why would you even worry about that while he is still around?

        When Forrest is gone and every jerk on the globe claims to have found it or claims they know where it was hidden but is no longer there…
        Then you should worry because at that time there will be no one to keep things on the up and up..

        Until then, stop being a worry-wart and trust Forrest and go have fun looking…
        I mean that in the kindest way possible…

      • Stanza #5 – Go and Leave – Tired and Weak – connected in the right way will yield the word that is key, and show you exactly where Indulgence is to be found – JMO – JDA

        • I don’t think so. That one is the easiest one and easy to spot. He is talking about the one no searchers have thought about.

          • OZ10;

            Please do not be deceived – This stanza is not talking about his health issues, or being tired from carrying Indulgence – JMO – JDA

      • Thank you Oz10 for the link! That was thought provoking. I’m thinking I will get back in the box. Its square.

      • Will you please tell us where in that long video “that good clue” appears? Thanks in advance.

        • tighter, the video reference is only for the source of the question. Sean and the others explore various points.

    • Clue or hint? Not sure but here’s a thought. People like to “think of themselves” as being good when they ponder the whole duality of man thing. So if someone said “Listen Good” they could be implying the connotation of being good while they are listening rather than the quality of listening intently.

      Pair that with the an attempt to solve a clue that searchers can think of themselves through riddle solving, something like – So hear me all and listen good = Ear + Heart = Earhart.

      Doesn’t get me any closer but maybe it’ll help someone. I’m still as confused as ever.

      • The “Brown” lady Earhart has been on my radar for a long time just have not figured how to cross the lines by her place. Still think of her often.

      • In my opinion you need to think about who is guiding us on this thrill of the chase and what we need to do to begin.

      • Right? I think this has to do with the ‘important possibility’ that no one has mentioned regarding the winning solve. It seems that years after that comment, he hasn’t seen or heard anybody discussing it still. Makes ya think.

        • Indeed it does. It makes me think that might not have realized how difficult it would be for a searcher to figure out this ‘important possibility’.

    • We believe “… the one good clue …” is “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,” and that TTOTC is important to the clue’s solution!

      The Geezer Team

    • “talk about the one good clue that searchers can think of themselves but haven’t. f”

      Perhaps it is that he wrote the clues, as a map, in the format of as a Poem? Why a Poem?

      I dunno , maybe this is the good clue?

  1. To those of you who have not gone BOTG yet, just remember there are only two things stopping you: Fear and common sense. 🙂
    My 2¢ for the day.

    • What’s fear about?
      As far as common sense… If you don’t have WWWH nailed down don’t go… right?
      Common sense says; if you don’t find the chest, go back to the first clue. Rinse and repeat ~ nail down the first clue.
      Common sense dictates having certainty of the location “beforehand”
      Common sense indicates you won’t ‘know’ [knowing is absolute] you have the first clue or any clue correct unless you find the chest… refer back to; “location certainty” of the direct path.
      Any sense should tell anyone if you can’t walk several hours to your solve [twice]… don’t go.
      Common sense says; if you need to take out a second mortgage to fund a trip… well, who am I to say that’s a stupid move.
      Common sense tells us, if you don’t go botg, you won’t ‘retrieve’ the trove.
      I’ll add; confidence is over rated…

      But, I have no idea of what ‘fear’ is about… care to elaborate?

      • I just thought it was a pithy saying. How about: Fear of injury, fear of ridicule, fear of wild animals, fear of the unknown, fear of failure.
        What are your reasons?

        • Honestly, none of the above.

          For someone to fear those type of things [ for this challenge ] should never be in this type of challenge… so why would they even think about attempting to solve it?
          In fact, why go to work, or school, a play football or checkers, or have a pet chipmunk.
          I personally think that some, if not most of the folks are of senior years, money tight, health reasons, or just don’t have enough to just jump the gun and go have a look.
          I mean, I have been ridiculed for not having botg, and have to chuckle at the same ones, who have… only to come back and complain about time wasted, money matters, family problems and all the other excuses, yet still enjoy saying; botg is the only way to go.

          I personally don’t ‘need’ the excuse to get out…

          I highly doubt fear keeps the armchair searcher at bay… and more than likely… they listen to fenn’s suggestions.
          Certainty of the location seems to be job number 1… cuz many have been on site [with two clues indicated] and have no clue at all to what they are doing… That’s not an opinion, it’s been proven. That is the perfect definition of jumping the gun, and I don’t see any common sense to that.

        • I never hear hardcore chasers complain about wasting time in the Rockies. I’m planning my next trip soon.
          Some of us are blessed with having no fear or common sense!

          “Common sense tells us, if you don’t go botg, you won’t ‘retrieve’ the trove.” –Amen to that!

          • Ha! *amendment*; If you don’t have certainty of the location beforehand, you’ll have a nice vacation.

          • I think you meant:
            “I warned the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

      • FYI:
        Hylophobia is the fear of forests. People with this phobia don’t like to walk through forests or near trees and even the thought of wood can cause them to feel nervous. Some people are just afraid of trees, and that is called dendrophobia.
        Chrysophobia/aurophobia is the fear of gold(!!)

  2. I wish people would stop with the abbreviations and spell out in full all words in text. Thank you.

    • @Francis re use of ABR’s, it’s everywhere in life these days, especially among the younger generation and texting! 5555! (LOL) very frustrating to me in my real estate career when the younger agents tell me they need the NHD or the AVID rather than spell it out! ACE it! Hang in there!

  3. I’ve started writing up my solve this week though who knows when I’ll be able to send it to Dal. Writing it out to the point I’m at now helps me not mentally write it out at 2 am as I’m trying to sleep and if that’s a problem for you also, I recommend this method of dealing with it.

  4. I was thinking abut this earlier today.
    Many of the ideas that we discuss here only exist because we are discussing them.
    And we shade those trees the way that we lean.

    One of the ongoing, and nonsensical, debates is over whether Fenn walked all the clues. He says he walked. The only reason some argue he drove is because their WWWH is too far to walk from their HoB.

    As Seeker pointed out recently we used to argue Fenn’s intent over other statements until he clarified them and we found that he meant exactly what he said with no Tom foolery.

    “So we beat on, boats against the current, borne back ceaselessly into the past”

    • Exactly Lug. My take on this is that we do not have enough information to know one way or another if he drove any clues or not. We have to be open minded in this regard until we find the chest.

      • ☝️ I completely agree with the open minded approach.
        My one thought (not that it really matters) to a solution, is, NFBTFTW, if that is a clue that stands alone, compared to it being part of NFBTFTW-PIBTHOB as the whole clue, then it seems to me that regardless of where one would place that clue, that some mode of traveling is involved other than walking.
        If the poem is saying NFBTFTW is the distance between WWH and CD then it seems (IMO) that one could Park their sedan and walk the remaining clues.
        Just one way to view a solution, others may differ and that’s okay.
        I firmly believe that any idea is valid until time or FF proves or says it isn’t.

        Happy Hunting !!! ‍♂️

        • Not sure where the odd symbol at end of my post came from.
          I must have hit the wrong button.


    • Lugnutz,
      I hate to do exactly what you are suggesting we keep doing. But, I have never seen a quote or heard Mr. Fenn say he “walked” all 9 clues. I would really like to see that. Could save me some money on my upcoming BOTG. Thanks in advance. J.O.

      • Jeff,
        Most want clarification without misunderstanding.
        We might as well just ask, where’s the chest?
        However if you look over the many comments; in-short;
        ~Fenn tells us to be able to walk several hours [twice] to our solves… some want to argue that is ‘only’ a safety guideline. Well, isn’t a solve a completed task-?- and the only ways to complete it, is by following precisely 9 clues?
        ~Says; we need to follow the clues, in consecutive order, there is no other way ‘he’ knows of. LOL he didn’t say “all” did he?
        ~Tells us he followed the clues ‘when’ he hid the chest. Yet the biggest complaint here is; the lack of the word ‘all’
        ~Stated he put one foot down and stepped on it to get to the next. [ you should review the whole comment ]
        ~ Has stated; first two clues solvers unfortunately “walked past” the treasure chest.
        ~Stated first two clues solvers went by the remaining seven clues… in both comments above, how can anyone go from the first two clues to where the chest lays in wait if there are miles between… without the 3rd clue to place searchers in the same location, having some within 500′ and others within 200′
        ~Then we have fenn telling us he “walked” less than a few miles from his car to the hide~ twice~ It was done in one afternoon.
        ~ and as of recent fenn took the same route in and out from the hide to his car because it was the most direct route
        Followed the clues.
        Most direct route.
        Walked less than a few miles.
        No other way that he knows of [but to follow the clues].
        “… people have figured the first couple of clues and unfortunate walked past the treasure chest.” [ how could they accomplish getting remotely near the chest by driving any unknown miles without clue 3 to get them there? [ reminder of words used; Many, several, more than several in regards to the first two clues in different comments over the years ].

        And for thought: little Indy can not get closer than the first two clues… yet, IF there is driving involved to the next clue… why can’t she follow that on a map-?- everyone else here [driving method] seem to feel they can to just that, right? LOL I mean how lousy was that map of the US RM’s??

        Those ATF’s are just a few that have been mentioned over the years. But in summation, what is the most likely, logical assumption to driving out clues vs. hiking nature?
        If folks want to stick to their guns and claim fenn never said *walked all the clues*… well then, any time fenn says “clues” should we claim he’s only talking about some clues and not all the clues contained in the poem?

        Although I agree… I would like to see fenn say [all 9 clues] it was well. But we may have to wait a bit more if all we want is clarification after clarification… Heck some still think WWH is a dam and the chest is in water, because fenn never said “reservoir” or “in” water.

        • Good summation Seeker ! All of it makes sense on the surface and who knows for certain? No one but Fenn…and he hasn’t clarified this one as of yet. My options are always open and it is always good to smack that fuzzy ball back and forth just for the heck of it…even when nobody is really on the other side. If you don’t where you’re going, any trail will take you there.

        • Seeker — this is a most thoughtful, well presented, post.

          Thank you for taking the time to write it.

        • But I am curious — how do you reconcile ‘NFBTFTW’?

          Isn’t that what leads most to consider the entire path was not walked?

          • aardverkbark;

            Can’t one look at a map, or be driving down a road and make a comment – “Now, that’s too far to walk?”
            Don’t we have the same thing here? Just askin’ JDA

          • Aardvakbark,

            One thought is ‘time’ related, Kinda like you can’t go back [in time]
            I mean, if you look at the titles of fenn’s memoirs alone, The Thrill is chasing down/exploring the past… TFTW, talks more about past memories and how it’s to far to walk for fenn now… Once upon a while can easily be stated as; once upon a time.

            If we look at the poem itself, it seems to jump from past tense to present, right? But does it really?
            “Begin it where” can be of a past time. [like saying once about a while] It’s quite possible the poem seems to jump to the present, and even later, to the idea of the future tense because the clues may need to relate to any ‘time’ to be reasonably solvable.

            For example; a canyon is normally created by glacial activity and/or erosion… over time. We see the results today, and may change slightly [ under normal condition ] a 1000 years down the road… but the idea might be… what was at one time, and what we see today or tomorrow. yet all relating to the poem’s clues

            Could HLnWH be related to the idea of a glacier? It fits nicely to the idea of a 2 mile thick sheet of ice, right?
            Ya have to ask yourself [or at least I do] why folks indicated the first two clues while on site, and at some point searchers went by all the remaining clues, and still some came within 200′ of the hide…lol… and none seem to know they did any of that??? Are we all blind, or might it be we just don’t see what fenn is explaining. IS this were imagination kicks… to see the past, even if you are of a future generation, and align it all to what is presently on site?
            Is this the idea of new and old? and still relevant a 1000 years from now.

            Just thoughts…… that all I have.

          • Zap, the walking back to the car quotes would still work if he walked part of the way and used another mode of transportation for the remainder.

          • Hi Aaron: yes, nothing 100% rules out the use of a bicycle or horse or even a ski lift (though very hard to explain the horse AND needing two trips). Personally, I think he walked the whole way to/from his car, but that the reason he equivocated over that walking question was that if he did anything like crawling or climbing or perhaps even wading, then strictly speaking it wouldn’t be 100% walking.

        • “Fenn tells us to be able to walk several hours [twice] to our solves…”

          NO HE DOESN’T! Repeating that misquote over and over does not make it true.

          • Under “Fundamental Guidelines” – here is what Forrest HAS said: “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.” JDA

          • Well Zap..
            Do you see the word summation?
            Did you see anything about your complaint in quotes? Beside the quotation marks you placed, when I didn’t…
            Did you happen to see the comments that were in quotes to be exact?

            Did you see the start of the post at all-?-
            **However if you look over the many comments; in-short;**

            Silly me… apparently not. I find it hilarious that you and others barked about my posting so many quotes, and one of the few times I write a post with points of arguments presented in a conversation in summation… lol you bark at that too.

          • Seeker: I find your posts tediously repetitive, and mostly devoid of useful original content, but that’s not what bothers me. It’s your unsupported translations of Forrest’s ATF’s that I rail against and will continue to call you out on because they are misleading to new searchers. Any time you post that we *must* have solutions that entail multi-hour walks, you reveal a misunderstanding of basic English. Forrest has NEVER revealed how short the distance was from his car. It could have been 50 feet for all we know. (It isn’t, but nothing he has ever said rules out this possibility).

          • He doesn’t say he walked, he says two trips. When asked if he took another mode of transportation he states :

            “Edgar, your wording of the question prompts me to pause and wonder if I can answer it candidly, yet correctly. Were all the evidence truly known, and I answered in the positive, you might say I was prevaricating, by some definitions of the word. And if I answered in the negative, you may claim that I was quibbling. So I will stay quiet on that subject. Thanks for the question anyway. f”

            He could have ridden a bicycle (if allowed in the search area), taken a horse, or paddled a canoe. All we know is he made two trips to the chest location in one afternoon after leaving his car. He also says he walked less than a few miles, which could mean he walked less than a few miles after dismounting a horse or a bicycle and he also refers to being able to solve the first few clues with armchair ideas, but a BOTG presence is needed for the last clue, so few could mean 8 as there are 9 clues.

          • Eric: at the very least, we know he walked a portion of it, even if not all of it:

            “But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help.”

            “Don’t force those kinds of aberrational thoughts on yourself or you’ll likely walk back to your car with a very light back pack.”

            “And when I hid it and was walking back to my car, I started laughing out loud, and I said, ‘Forrest Fenn, did you really do that?'”

            Separate occasion: “You know, when I hid that treasure, I was walking back to my car. I started laughing at myself out loud. I said, ‘Forrest, did you really do that?’ You know, and in the back of my mind I told myself if I regret doing this, I can go back and get it.”

            Yet another: “I put it in that very secret, and very dear place – private. I walked back to my car … smiling.”

            And yet another: “When I was walking back to my car the last time, nobody around any place, and out loud, in a loud voice, I said, ‘Forrest Fenn did you really do that?’ and I started laughing.”

            There are at least two more instances. In all of them he mentions walking back to his car.

        • Well, isn’t a solve a completed task-?- and the only ways to complete it, is by following precisely 9 clues?

          No, a solve is not a completed task since what type of solve wasn’t specified other than by “your”. Is it a general solve or a correct solve? Same sticking point as before, Seeker.

          • Hear ya go, fun. I’ll post the exact quote before other have a stroke…

            * Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. Otherwise you have a “general solve.” What do you think? f

            A solve is a solve, a general solve doesn’t get you there.

            Solve; find an answer to, explanation for, or means of effectively dealing with (a problem or mystery) … to find a solution, explanation, or answer for. solve a problem.

          • And since 350,000 solves so far aren’t all the correct solve then they are general solves.

            F knows this. Therefore, the majority of the solves, being “general” in nature” haven’t followed the nine clues precisely.

          • I have a general solve….it only works for spherical chests in a vacuum.

            Actually I’ve had several general solves that looked decent but I’m missing that AHA moment of clarity

        • Seeker,

          Thanks for your thoughts. Just to be clear, I am only encouraging discussion with searchers on this blog. I am not attempting to converse with Mr. Fenn or ask him where he hid the chest.

          In fact, I believe he has indicated on many occasions that he has no intentions of giving any more “significant” hints or clues to the general public or an individual searcher. So when I reply to a comment on this blog I am typically testing the above stated philosophy.

          As an example: Mr. Fenn has made many statements about searchers being within 200 or 500 feet and walking right past the treasure. I believe that comment taken literally would be a “HUGE!” Clue which would violate or contradict his previous comments regarding not giving any more significant clues.

          You have referenced many friends quotes. One you left out. When Mr. Fenn was asked how someone could be within 200 ft and walk right past the treasure he stated the searcher “didn’t know” and that they had “left the poem” at some point after the first two clues. Well, how long had they left the poem? We’re they driving, walking, swimming, sky diving, etc. before they inadvertently or randomly were walking past the treasure? Who really knows? But more importantly, does anyone really believe Mr. Fenn would give such a significant clue?

          I am not attempting to make an argument that I am right but simply suggesting we are all most likely wrong because we continue to believe all of his comments and quotes are clues or hints that will take us to the treasure.

          IMO the only solution that will work is to read the poem, and TTOTC over and over, solve the clues in the poem and go with confidence to the blaze.

          Thanks again for the healthy discussion. Jeff

          • Jeff;

            You say: “As an example: Mr. Fenn has made many statements about searchers being within 200 or 500 feet and walking right past the treasure. I believe that comment taken literally would be a “HUGE!” Clue which would violate or contradict his previous comments regarding not giving any more significant clues.”

            May I ask HOW this is a HUGE clue? Forrest does not say that a given person, on a given day, on a given hike was 200′ or 500′ from Indulgence.

            All he is saying is that someone (A searcher probably since this person told Forrest where he/she was at), on some day told him that he/she/they had been somewhere in the Rocky Mountains.

            Let’s say that I went on one of my 23 searches. I then told Forrest where I had been. Forrest goes back to my search #6 and posts that someone (I think that it is me on my last search) was within 150′ (He has not done this). I head to Wyoming and tear the mountain apart because I THINK he was talking about me. Even if he was, he was talking about a different trip in a different place – I am tearing up the mountain in the WRONG place.

            Add to this the fact that hundreds of people have written him about hundreds and even thousands of trips that he can choose from. How is this helping ANYONE? Much less, being a HUGE clue.

            Let’s say Cynthia tells Forrest where she was searching. One year later Forrest says “Someone” was searching somewhere and came within 150′. I have no idea where Cynthia searched – I have no idea when she searched, and I have no idea that it is her that Forrest is using. “I” think he is talking about me and a recent search – I again tear up the mountain where I was last week. WRONG state!!! WRONG mountain – WRONG everything.

            I am sure you get my point. A HUGE mess, NOT a HUGE clue IMO – JDA

          • Jeff – If you say so. I see you as saying that it is a HUGE clue, and I am saying the exact opposite it is NO clue at all since it does NOT define who, what, where, nor when “Someone” was within 200′ or 500′ – JDA

          • JDA,
            The written word can be so treacherous for me. I promise you and I are aligned on this one.

            When I laid the premise for a literal interpretation of the 200/500 comment as a “huge” clue. I meant for other searchers. I personally do not believe it.

            But as an example, it’s my understanding that Toby and Shelley have put so much weight (HUGE?) on the 200/500 feet comment that they no longer attempt to solve all 9 clues. Instead they use the first 2 clues and then some kind of algebra involving the 200 and 500 ft. Radius.

            And so many blogs have the 200/500 ft comments as an important topic and so many other searcher spend time trying to make sense of it. I would never tell any of them they are wrong because I respect them all so much. But it’s my opinion that this is not a big clue, or even a small hint. I don’t believe Mr Fenn was intentionally confusing or creating a mess with the comment. We did that on our own. On that point, we agree. What a mess!

            Gotta go watch some football. Have a great weekend!

          • Hi Jeff;

            I use the 200′ and 500′ as a check and balance.
            If I believe that I am close to where I think Indulgence might be, I look around and see if there are any landmarks that one could use to tell Forrest where they were. Let’s take a Trail Sign as an example.

            I draw a 500′ circle from this sign and see if my proposed site for Indulgence is within that circle.
            Now let’s say that I spot another landmark – a knoll of a hill as an example that is closer to my Hidey spot. I draw a 200′ circle and see if Indulgence is in this circle – If where I think Indulgence should be falls within my 500′ AND 200′ cirtcle, it is (for me) a good check and balance. Hope this makes sense.

            There is actually more to my method than I have disclosed, but enough that you should get the point – JMO – JDA

          • Regardless whether the 200 foot /500foot is a HUGE clue…it sure gets a lot of attention and folks that say it isn’t seem to use it as a method just the same. I believe those comments CAN be useful in the laboratory. My thoughts always revolve around the poem first…and nothing shared here is a waste of time or *nonsensical*. I guess there may be some exceptions….but overall a constant rehash is no waste.

        • Jeff,
          I left out quite a few ATF’s [ mainly for space ].
          To attempt to make sense of 8 years of ATF’s on any particular topic [ example hike vs. drive ] many pieces of information pops up, I only highlighted the more known comments that were closest to the thought.

          You talked about the “left the poem” Q&A. If I recall correctly fenn was asked why searchers quit? answering they didn’t quit they left the poem. Some may argue differently, but in my mind, they left the poem’s understanding at clue 3, and not so much walked or drove away line of thinking.
          The stumbling block for me doesn’t seem to be the action of the searchers, as much as, their thought process was wrong. I mean, folks have deciphered the first two clues [ mentioned to fenn, where they were and their process ] and hopped skip and jump by everything else… yet they seemed to get reasonably close to the hide.
          My question has always been; How can folks who live and breathe this poem not see what is around them while on site / location / search area [ call it what ya will ] and not pick up later clues-?- and continue on from there. I mean if hoB would take you right to the chest, idea… was there no one who came across hoB?
          I personally don’t think anyone can know hoB without fully understanding WWWH completely.
          Or as one Q&A seemingly might be saying; If you “know” hoB why be concern about WWWH [reverse engineering question] IMO you wouldn’t, because you would have had it nailed down to “know” hoB… no need to reverse engineer. [knowing is absolute]

          I think, the reason for not knowing later clues is the lack of connection to WWWH’s reference.
          It has been discovered, folks right there on site, mentioned it to fenn, and they got there some how, right? Yet everything still fell apart with that clue and on.
          Are we looking at this clue correctly?
          Is it only a place?’is it only the starting line?
          is it only the first clue?
          Or is there something we need to know about it-?- to understand the next step[s] to be take properly?

          So in one reading of the poem with the thought of ‘time’ being involved, that relates to the thought of ‘time in the past’… The poem seems to jump from past to present and even future tense… I think the entire poem is of past tense. That is why I can read “begin it where… as once upon a time, line of thinking… or ‘when’ in the past WWWH. And the poem walks us through [ for lack or a better term ] journey of time. We need to imagine how it all unfolds as we journey the clues.
          IMO, that is why folks ‘left the poem’… didn’t know the seven remaining clues, or maybe a better thought is; simply didn’t ‘understand how to see/imagine them’

          Think of it this way; you’re a searcher 1000 years from now… how will you look at a poem 1000 years old?………. do ‘we’ need to do the same today, tomorrow, 100 years from now?
          I think fenn’s ‘down the road thinking process’ is a two way street.

  5. Based on proable future
    BOTG hours. I’m bettin
    that Sandy, Cindy, DGypsy,
    Dal or JDA find gold.

  6. #1 lurker , looking always ahead,
    wisdom I impart you while lying in my bed,
    Forrest the Phantom has already said ,
    Two can keep a secret if one of them is dead.
    ” Go in peace “

  7. Dal, I tried to put this where it belonged, to no avail…

    It’s Friday and work is slow so here’s a single off of my upcoming Sophomore album (release date unknown)…

    On Google Earth, in the area of my solve, the elevation of “my creek” goes as follows:

    Baseline, then Higher, then Lower.


    • Off the top of my head, two different “types” in Colorado:

      Unaweep Canyon (east creek and west creek with a divide in the middle)

      Pole Creek Mountain

      Are you describing something like one or the other of those types?


    • Eric: Depends on what you mean by “quickly”.

      J.A.: I looked at Wiki for Unaweep Canyon – hard to say for sure, but it doesn’t seem like that. I can’t put together enough from a quick Google of Pole Creek Mountain to say.

      Let me back up and give a bit of a longer stretch of “my creek”. I’m changing the below elevations to not be identifiable.

      All points from GE:
      Let’s put a baseline point at 15,000 feet.
      It then flows to an elevation of 14,500 feet at a point where it is relevant to my solve (as led to by other clues).
      Within a moderately short distance (say < 2 miles) and still in an area relevant to my solve, a point in the middle of "my creek" shows an elevation of 14,550 feet.
      From that point, it continues flowing to an elevation of 14,000 feet.

      • Hey-O, FMC –

        Unaweep Canyon has a divide in the middle, so east creek and west creek flow (when there’s any water) in opposite directions in the same canyon. Many similar “divide-type” (and oft-noted) creeks of course in the greater search area – my favorite is Kinky Creek Divide near the headwaters of the Green River (Wyo).

        Pole Creek Mountain (near the headwaters of the Rio Grande in CO) is just a “wordplay-type” example. There is a Pole Creek at its base, but if “your creek” = Pole Creek Mountain, there’s no paddle up it. Just like you can’t paddle up (or down) Wolf Creek Pass.

        As for a high spot in a flowing stream “type”, I know of only one example in the greater search area. Between Bellvue and LaPorte in Colorado, on the southwest slope of Bingham Hill, there’s an irrigation ditch that flows uphill a ways – it was once featured in *Ripley’s Believe It or Not* way back when. I used to stop there to show out-of-town visitors, and with the kids (when they were kids) to take a look. A kind of “gravity hill.”

        Yours may be just an artifact of where the elevation datum was actually taken (vs where it shows with the cursor on GE) – or maybe not. Will it appear in the search you’re writing up, or is it new work?


        • I reference it in the write-up, but it’s not a critical piece – I can get to my same search area by other, more concrete methods (which is good, because it is incorrect GE data – “my creek” definitely only flows one way after BOTG).

          I asked because, while it was initially only an alternate way of getting to “below the HOB”, writing it up made me consider it in a new light… namely, would this be a legit (secondary) interpretation of either “water high” (the high point) or “no paddle up your creek” (that you can’t paddle up it since “my creek” only goes downstream)? After all, it is based on the poem and a “good resource” – Google Earth.

          I think it’s an interesting question, but I suspect that an incorrect GE dataset probably doesn’t still “exist in 100 years”.

          And just FWIW, I am continuing with the standard set by last year’s solve in that it’s going to be incredibly, incredibly long and (overly?) detailed. Last I checked, I think I’m at 6,000+ words and north of 50 images…

  8. Just thinking out loud this morning.

    In regards to Stanza 5.

    So why is it that I must go
    And leave my trove for all to seek?
    The answers I already know,
    I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak.

    Has anybody else given any thought in regards to who the “I” might be in Stanza 5? In the past, I’ve always assumed that this was Fenn speaking. He poses a question, then answers it. Lately though, I’ve been contemplating on whether or not this question and answer(s) is actually coming from Fenn.

    Could the question and answer(s) be coming from someone or something other than Fenn?

    (and I know that “something’s” don’t generally speak but if you use your imagination enough, I think that maybe they can)

    I pose this question to the group because this is the one Stanza in the poem that I am personally guilty of flip-flopping on repeatedly. Some days I see a clue here, and I am sure of it. And the next day I don’t see a clue here at all, then I reassign that Stanza as Fennspeak, then I re-number my clues. This makes me wonder if this might be where others are possibly getting lost and/or are leaving the poem? Or maybe they’re not even getting this far in the poem, since this might be (or might not be) one of the later clues.

    If this Stanza does have a clue though, I am able to incorporate it pretty well at my location. At the same time it doesn’t really help that much, based on my interpretation of the previous clue. They both pretty much put me at the same place, with the exception of my understanding of “tired and weak”.

    Does anybody else struggle with this Stanza? And if so, have you decided one way or another on if there is/are a clue or clues here? Any other thoughts on this Stanza?

    All IMO.


    • SRW, I see the poem a lot different then most. I see instructions to follow that will end up telling me what is meant. There are really no rules, so it’s wide open. Spelling of words, abbreviations, words within words, etc…
      I see two clues in this stanza. From line 17 and line 20. Line 17 is easy, (if it is what it is), but the thing is, it’s easy to my solve. I also have letter values which also play a role. These letter values come from the poem and only the poem. So right there, most would hit a wall as far as understanding a certain solve. I think that is what you are asking. If we see clues within this stanza, with our certain way of seeing the poem. Which, will not help you much in your solve. Not the answer you are looking for, but of course I will give you my examples.
      Line 17, So why is it that I must go. To me, it’s broken down to read, So wy is it (that “I” must go). So I get rid of the “I”. Also earlier, “why” is “wy” because in letter values “h” equals 2. In this case, “to”. So ‘w” to “y” is “wy”.
      End up with Sowyst. At this part of my path, the way I’m heading, Southwest becomes the clue. To head Southwest. It is the direction I am facing when I’m looking at the blaze and marvel gaze. It is my 6th clue.
      Line 18 confirms my line 16, and my line 19 confirms I know what I already know, a coordinate. Which is exactly where I wind up at when line 20 gives me my distance that I travel when I’m going Southwest. Line 20, to me, uses the letter values, and when broken down, I’ve (edit “ted”), and I’m weak. Weak equals 20, or in this case too. So I get, I’ve ??? too. A distance, and my 7th clue.
      All this helps you probably not at all, but how one searcher can see the poem.
      Now if you have a question regarding using the whole poem for clues, besides stanza one, yes, I would say your last clue will be line 24. It only makes sense. Stanza 5 seems to be a good spot for him to put clues that backup or support other clues. To me, it is a stanza that has clues that, while being clue, support what you probably already know, or think you know. It is the stanza that must confirm your path, confirm you previous clues, or clue, and put you in the position for your finally.
      If you can incorporate with your path up to this point, and something in this stanza pushes you forward, towards the chest, you have to go with it. If nothing in the stanza, from your position on your path, gets you any closer to your destination, then don’t force fit something that isn’t there. It’s then a support stanza for you. Good luck, I think there are two clues in this stanza, and two confirming hints to support.

      • Hi Charlie and wow! You do have an interesting way of interpreting that Stanza. And that may be just what it takes to solve this thing! I will say though, that I tend to look at the poem a bit more straightforward and a bit more simply. In the end, I don’t think the correct solve will be super complicated, as in “what took me so long”.

        Thanks for your insight too and good luck. Have fun out there.

        All IMO.


    • SRW,

      The I is Forrest,
      Tired & weak is how he felt before & after the treasure was hidden.

      I personally don’t feel there are clues in stanza 5, that’s just me.

      Just Say’n

      • Hi CharlieM,

        Thanks for your insights. I also originally considered that the “I” was Forrest speaking. Now, I’m not so sure. If it is Forrest speaking, then it sure does leave a lot of the poem, an entire Stanza, as nothingness. There does seem to be some important words in those few lines. I don’t know…I’m gonna have to think on it some more! Thanks again.

        All IMO.


        • SRW, I think it’s an encouragement to the searcher, who at this point is tired & weak and still empty handed, and wondering why FF started this whole Chase thing. Questioning whether he (the searcher) should quit and go home or push-on. It’s an inspirational boost… the end really is nigh this time…. reach deep within and find your ‘answer’ too…. I sense it has something to do with learning where ‘the edges’ are.
          To me, this stanza acknowledges the journey of self-awareness attached to will & physical effort. OS2

          • Hi OS2, thanks for your reply.

            For me, this part of the poem also seems to offer an explanation, of sorts, as to why he’s done what he’s done (if it is Forrest speaking). The whole Stanza seems to lean towards a final statement in regards to his life. It seems like Forrest might be saying that this is the end of the road for him, the end of his life, death, immortality, etc. After all, the end location is where he plotted to rest in peace for eternity. Plus, in the end, we know that he was going to take it (the chest) with him (paraphrasing). This Stanza pretty much says that, to me. Which is why, in the end, I keep having trouble with whether or not there are actually any clues to be found in this Stanza. If this is the end of the road for him, then it should probably also be the end of the road for me too…LOL! Maybe this is where the treasure chest lies?

            I do like that you see encouragement and/or edges or boundaries within this Stanza…I hadn’t thought of that.

            Like I mentioned before, this is the part of the poem that I continue to flip-flop on. It’s super easy for me to confuse myself at this part!

            I’ll keep digging and thanks again.

            All IMO.


        • SRW,

          One thing to strongly consider, Forrest wrote the poem and he alone was the architect, he also is the one and only person that knows where the TC is hidden. It is Forrest speaking a no one else.

          The big question is who is I other than F? No one. Also remember what F said along the lines of there are few words in the poem that will not help you in finding the treasure. (Not a quote) Stanza 5 truely has no hints or clues, this stanza is those few words that will not help.

          Of course Just Say’n

          • CharlieM;

            I again have to disagree. First two lined of stanza #5 ask a question, with (to me) two key words – “GO” and “LEAVE”. The next two lines are an answer to that question. To me, here the two key words are “TIRED” and “WEAK”.

            I match these two sets of two words. I couple “GO” with “TIRED” and I couple “LEAVE” with “WEAK” So, I “Go tired” and “Leave weak”.

            Go = travel
            Tired = Wanting to lie down – or just down
            So, Go tired” means go to a lower spot than you presently are at.

            Leave = depart
            Weak = without force – meekly
            So, Leave weak means depart without force.

            What if you are near a small stream – you follow it downhill, and it disappears under a rock? This would seem to fit the above clues – clues that you would have missed had you not thought about this stanza as a clue… in this manner.

            Just supposin’ – JDA

          • JDA,

            I have a hard time with your logic, Leave, Go, Tired & Week to me does not show any help for a solution. I’m not seeing your logic, but that it just me.

            Thanks my friend, different strokes

          • OS2;

            Go and leave mean the same thing, so we have two “Leaves” or leafs – could refer to grass, or bushes of some kind – goes along with you leafy canopy

            Forrest uses the word canopy:
            “Suddenly something wonderfully innocent occurred. A small clearing appeared at eleven o’clock on my canopy and slowly worked its way under my left wing to disappear behind.- JDA

          • OS2;

            Tired can mean = To dress the head or hair, especially with a headdress (Archaic definition);
            (a canopy.)
            Headdress = hood;
            Hood = shroud;
            Shroud = to shelter


          • Hi JDA, thanks. I’m reminded…
            Hiding in tall grass under a tired arch reminds me of a picture I saw somewhere. I sometimes hear the music when the wind is right. Cheers

            Not having lived in mountains or deserts, my experience is that tall grasses grow in wetter places, and pine trees arn’t tressed with leaves. Maybe a hint. Donno.

          • Hello JDA. The quote you posted from the book as always been something that caught my eye when I first read it. Picture the scene:

            “Suddenly something wonderfully innocent occurred. A small clearing appeared at eleven o’clock on my canopy and slowly worked its way under my left wing to disappear behind.”

            The waterfall is at eleven o’clock. Is it directly in front of him, or above? Imagine the scene of how the waterfall approaches and how it disappears. What is happening?

          • pd;

            I do not think that that quote from “My War for Me” was placed there by accident.

            . In my reverie, I often find myself stealing away to that place and I will always consider it to be mine alone.” F “As I went alone in there…” JDA

          • JDA: keep in mind that 99% of the story “My War For Me” came out many years before TTOTC, for an audience very different from the Thrill of the Chase searchers.

          • Zap – I agree that he wrote it before TToTC, but he felt it important enough to include it in TToTC – JDA

    • SRW,
      IMO, you’re touching on one of the primary conundrums of The Chase. My long-held belief is Forrest’s poem is a process of elimination through trial and error.

      F has stated there are nine clues in the poem, eight of which should be known, IMO, prior to BOTG (“… Google Earth cannot help with the last clue”). Too, he’s stated we should “marry” the clues in the poem to “maps of the Rocky Mountains.” IMO, having too many ‘marriages’ is antithetical to a “correct solve”, but that’s just me.

      The question that arises frequently in my mind is, “Which nine phrases are clues that F intended to be married to a map, and which phrases are hints or otherwise unimportant to a correct solve?” FWIW, I believe there are important hints that may be contained within and/or associated with poem phrases intended to be clues, and these hints provide additional key information.

      IMO, the separation of poem wheat-from-chaff can, in many cases, result only from BOTG. The best any of us can do is guess intelligently and learn from each experience as our understanding and beliefs of the poem evolve.

      Just a few wayward thoughts.

      • Hi Joe…thanks for your thoughts.

        You replied: “The question that arises frequently in my mind is, “Which nine phrases are clues that F intended to be married to a map, and which phrases are hints or otherwise unimportant to a correct solve?” FWIW, I believe there are important hints that may be contained within and/or associated with poem phrases intended to be clues, and these hints provide additional key information”.

        This is the dilemma isn’t it? I’ve tried parsing the poem, in order to get my 9 clues, in two different ways. Originally, I determined what I thought were the clues, then I would use the residual information that was left over in the poem and would consider that information as hints. Somehow, slicing and dicing the poem this way has always seemed to leave my clues somewhat fragmented and seemingly incomplete. The second way that I have read the poem, which always seems to make more sense to me, is to view the poem as if there are only 9 clues (and only clues) within the poem, and nothing much is left over to become a hint. My only exception to the hint(s) in the poem comes from Stanza 1. There is definitely a hint to be found there, for me. Reading the poem this way has always seemed to help to get me further along in my search area (BOTG), without having a whole bunch of the poem left over as meaningless fodder or maybe as hints, that I have not necessarily needed to figure the clue. The possible hint information always seems to be relevant and always seems to help to get me further down my trail, so I consider that information to be more a part of the clue than a hint. IMO.

        Another thing that I try to keep in mind is that Forrest, to the best of my knowledge, has never actually said that there are any hints in the poem (I’m sure someone will correct me if I am wrong). It is my understanding that the poem contains 9 clues and 9 clues only, other than the 1 hint that can be found in Stanza 1, by simply reading the poem. This hint, as I have interpreted it, is what has provided me with my larger location where I can start looking for WWWH. And since it’s not super specific, but is more general in nature, for me it becomes the one and only hint in the poem to get me started. IMO.

        Anyways, this always kind of takes me back to Stanza 5. Clue or no clue? Hints or no hints? I’m still contemplating!

        All IMO.


        • SRW;

          Nice post and I pretty much agree with you. For me stanza #5 IS a clue – a vital one. Stanza #1 (for me) is a prelude that tells me that once I get to where I think Indulgence is – I have to look “In There” – not just “AT” the spot, but “IN” the spot. Just how I now see it. – JDA

          • Hi JDA…thanks for your reply.

            Stanza 1 for me is pretty clear. For me, “in there” comes into play a bit later possibly, near the end, based on my solve location and my interpretation of what I think are the clues. What Stanza 1 points out for me is more in the realm of “I can keep my secret where”, followed by the hint as to “where”.

            Stanza 5 is still a toss up for me! Still thinking!

            Thanks again and all IMO.


        • SRW,
          Thanks for your response. My rejoinder is relevant to this comment.
          You wrote: “… is to view the poem as if there are only 9 clues (and only clues) within the poem, and nothing much is left over to become a hint.”

          Early on, I became frustrated while attempting to parse the poem into nine meaningful chunks, so I quickly gave up and simply defined all the phrases I deemed ‘helpful’ as information. This led to other complications I didn’t ‘t even become aware of until this from Business Insider on 2/9/2017:
          ** “Read the clues in my poem over and over and study maps of the Rocky Mountains,” he said via email. “Try to marry the two. The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.” **

          Imagine my surprise when I actually counted not nine but twelve marriages between clues and maps. So, I felt it necessary to reconsider my approach to solving the poem.

          I agree with your assessment of “hints” in the poem, and in spite of “hint of riches new and old”, saying there are “hints” in the poem is a bit strong and certainly not verifiable, to my knowledge. However, I do believe the poem contains at least two ‘instructions’ to virtual-mode searchers that are integral to defining the poem’s path as intended by Forrest. Did F place helpful information in the poem that is meant to be considered something other than a clue (or instruction)? Within the poem, did he affirm any clue or clues?

          Regarding your post at the top of this sub-thread, it’s my opinion that clues exist in all but the first stanza – FWIW.

          Things I ponder …

          • Joe,

            I agree with you on some things about the clues. However F found that there are 9 clues after he had finished writing the poem. I tried to find the source when that was mentioned.

            I personally feel that trying to figure out what the clues are just gets in the way of trying to marry the poem to a map.
            I don’t worry about the clues at all when trying to marry the poem. I look at the poem as a set of directions to places, much like a farmer does for a stranger in a rural area. Sometimes I have run across that and some of the directions are vague to me, but not for the person that is giving directions.

            I only count the clues *after* I feel I have a solve.

            Just Say’n

          • Hi Joe, thanks again for responding back.

            I pretty much agree with what you’ve stated above. I will say though, that my “x” marks the spot is probably arrived at a bit differently than others might think to do it…and I’m perfectly ok with that.

            In regards to the “instructions” that you see in the poem, I see them too. But it is that bit of information though (the instructions), that when combined with the other bits of information (the other cluey type bits of information), are actually what constitutes a complete clue for me. If it gets me closer to the chest then it’s a clue! IMO.

            Thanks again for you insight,

            All IMO.


          • I am clueless to how you can marry 12 lines in the poem to actual places on a map. I only see 4 or 5. Care to elaborate on your technic. Maybe you are on to something and just need a little help.

      • One thing I believe is that the Chase is not designed to be a process of elimination. Other mechanisms are probably more important to focus on.

        • Here’s a little something else for us to contemplate and to expand a little bit on a statement that I made further up:

          Has anybody else ever considered the possibility that in order to have a complete and/or accurate understanding of any particular clue, that it might actually involve extrapolating more than one snippet of information or data, in order to constitute a complete solve of an actual clue?

          For example, I think it might be possible to over-simplify a clue by just thinking that said clue might refer to a certain place, and that’s it, end of clue. Rather, what if a complete clue might be more along the lines of go here (place), do this, do that, go up, go down, be wise, etc. And that this is what it might take in order to take a relatively simple interpretation of a clue, to a more complete and fully understood interpretation of a clue. IMO.

          Here’s another example of what I’m trying to say, without giving away the farm:

          “Begin it where warm waters halt”

          Knowing that Forrest has indicated that this is the first clue (but possibly not the entire first clue), and by trying to glean as much information as I can out of this first clue (or partial first clue, depending on your own personal solve), I’m able to get as many as 3 or 4 bits of information out of that one single line. And when all the little bits of information are combined, I’m able to translate all of that information into a more relevant location and I feel like this provides me with a much better understanding of what I think might be the answer to that particular clue. IMO.

          Anybody else see it this way?

          Just a little food for thought!

          All IMO.


          • SRW,
            I mentioned a while ago that I see redundancies in some parts of the poem. In that one line might describe the same place in two different ways. Just heavy loads and water high is an obvious example, but there are others IMO.

        • Elimination is the only way to solve problems.
          When you remove this major mechanism, you remove yourself.
          Don’t focus on what you think it is.
          Focus on what it can’t be 1st.

    • SRW,

      Yes, I struggle with this stanza as well. Factor in the fact that ff worked on it for 15 years, every word is deliberate, and the original plan to throw himself on the chest. Can we say with certainty that the same process of solving the riddle to the poem today will be the same in the future? It must be, and this is one of the reasons he chose a poem as the delivery tool.

      So, if we were reading this stanza 100 years from now or at any time after Forrest has passed, will the lines ‘the answers I already know, I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak’ lose significance? They shouldn’t, especially if every word is deliberate and most are important in solving the poem.

      In that regard, the *I* in the poem MUST survive ff. Imagination kicks in here big time. Any ideas of who or what is talking at this layer?

      • IMO – Whether Forrest is dead or alive, he is the one that wrote the poem, so the “I” does not change – fort me at least. Forrest is saying that he has done it tired, and now is weak – at that moment in time when he wrote those words. – JDA

        • JDA,
          You make it sound like stanza 1 is fenn telling us he went to hide the chest, then later on in stanza five he’s telling us he’s older? tired and weak… as if there is years in between the task of hiding the chest, and now in the future, must go and leave. {yep, can be read that way} but it seems a waste of two full stanzas…

          Why can’t it be at both at the same time?
          He hides the chest and he must go and leave his trove for all to seek.
          Doesn’t that change the idea of what tired and weak [ answers he already knows ] might be relating to, for solve itself?

          • I see it the way you do Seeker – When he hid the treasure, he may have been tired and weak, but at that time, he went alone in there to secret it.

            You might enjoy my post that I just posted. Addressed to SRW I reference one of your ideas – 🙂 JDA

        • JDA, simple mindedness day in and day out has not work for the past 8 years. Put your thinking hat on, even if it floats away. 🙂

      • Hi OZ10,

        You asked: In that regard, the *I* in the poem MUST survive ff. Imagination kicks in here big time. Any ideas of who or what is talking at this layer?

        I do have a few ideas on what Stanza 5 could be saying. My first thought is that it really does sound like Forrest is speaking here. And if it is Forrest, then it becomes easy for me to interpret the Stanza like this:

        So why is it that Forrest must go
        And leave his trove for all to seek
        The answer(s) he already knows,
        He’s done it tired and now he’s weak.

        The example above makes the most sense to me. Forrest is the one that is departing (he thought he was going to die) and he’s the one who left a trove for the rest of us to seek (I don’t personally have a trove to leave for everybody else to seek). He knows why he’s doing it (he was going to take it with him) and it sounds like his turn in life is coming to an end (sounds like he’s succumbing to death). IMO.

        My second thought is if the “I” is me. The Stanza would then read like it is written in the poem:

        So why is it that I must go
        And leave my trove for all to seek
        The answer(s) I already know,
        I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak

        The example above doesn’t really make that much sense to me now. I don’t really think that I have to go anywhere right now and I’m super sure that I’m not going to leave my trove for the rest of you all to seek (plus I don’t even have a trove to leave). And, I for sure don’t know all of the answers (I probably don’t really even know any of the answers) and I’m not very tired just yet and I don’t feel weak yet either.

        Interpreting the Stanza this way, as if the “I” is me, just reads kinda funky for me. IMO.

        My last thought, and this one is a bit out there, would involve using your imagination by thinking that the “I” is an inanimate object or a thing that is now speaking the words in this Stanza (think like the talking box commercial (Progressive Insurance) or like the talking duck commercial (Aflac) as examples). For this example, and for fun, let’s pretend that the “I” is a hill side. The Stanza might then read like this:

        So why is it that I (the hill side) must go
        And leave my trove (new minerals, dirt, new land forms, etc.) for all to seek
        The answer(s) I (the hillside) already know,
        I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak (and now it’s a landslide)

        Yea, I know this is stretching it a bit but it does let us use a bit more of our imagination which is probably required in order to solve this thing. And, don’t forget, we really do have talking boxes and ducks out there in the real world! IMO.

        Anyways, that’s all I’ve got to offer in regards to Stanza 5.

        Does anybody else slice and dice these poem lines any differently? I’d love to hear an entirely different take on these lines!

        All IMO.


        • SRW;

          I do not think that your hillside idea is so far off.

          Seeker often suggests thinking in terms of time – Why not go back eons and instead of a hillside, why not think in terms of a glacier.

          “So why is it that I (The glacier) I must go (melt – retreat up the valley or mountain) and leave my trove for all to see(k) – (I the glacier have carved out this valley, have left lakes and a moraine of rocks for all to see – All you have to do is look and you will find them)

          “The answers I (The glacier) already know (Because I did these things eons ago) I’ve done it tired (It took many thousands of years to accomplish what I did) and now I’m weak (today, instead of being two miles high and 10 miles wide, I am only a little rivulet weakly finding its way down a hillside – about ready to seep into the earth – to be heard from no more) – In a way a sad story, but the story of one valley created by one glacier eons ago – I know, I have a vivid imagination – Just how I see it – JDA

          • Hi JDA,

            That’s another great example of interpreting that Stanza by using your imagination. It does make me wonder though, just how much imagination do we really need to use. How much imagination is too much imagination? Beats the heck outta me!

            Thanks again for your thoughts.

            All IMO.


          • SWR, look up the words; synecdoche and metonymy.
            The “idea” is simply, I in stanza one refers to something or someone else. A poem allows freedom of word usages [ bending and twisting, if you will ] in poetic form. I think fenn chose at poem to present the clues [ rather than placing them in the stories, idea ] to have the freedom of word usages without confinement of Hartford style literature to bind him.

            “I looked up words and definitions of words and changed them, went back and rebooted… it [the poem] turned out exactly like I wanted” {SF podcast 11 mins in}

            It just a different reading of the poem. especially if we can understand the words used [ as fenn stated; every word was deliberate ]

        • SRW,
          A whatIF might be more about stanza’s 1 “i” rather than stanza’s 5.

          IF the idea of two can keep a secret if one is dead is at all helpful… could stanza 1 be of another? “i” would represent that person who has gone a lone somewhere with ‘his’ treasures bold’ He can keep his secret where, with the idea of the hints being ‘new and old’ as “riches” of knowledge. [ basically fenn is narrating stanza 1, idea]

          Now fenn is talking about himself in stanza 5. The answers he already knows… may relate to who stanza 1 might be referring to. In which case… the clues might refer to the idea of the journey “i” in stanza one took. So now that “i” in stanza 1 is gone [ two can keep a secret if one is dead ] the special place is fenn’s [his] alone.

          Think of it like this; fenn found a little arrow head and wondered who made this 2000 year arrow head, what was it used for etc.. Is the poem premise the same? fenn found a place where an other’s treasures were [personal belonging] , and decided this would be a good location to hide ‘his trove’-?- for future generations to hunt down and/or discover?

          A piece of history with a future piece of history next to each other, to be found in the future 100, 1000, maybe even 10,000 years down the road?
          The chest [ while having artifacts within ] is a prize, a lure…
          What is, or would be, history is the bio of who, when, why and how the chest got there. That would be an archeologist dream of a find… down the road.

          • Seeker;

            You pose an interesting idea -” The chest [ while having artifacts within ] is a prize, a lure…
            What is, or would be, history is the bio of who, when, why and how the chest got there. That would be an archeologist dream of a find… down the road.” I wonder if in Forrest’s bio that is included in Indulgence IF Forrest tells all, about “who when and why the chest got there.” HUMMM

            Now where did I put that magnifying glass???

          • JDA,
            fenn already said that was one reason for the bio… to let future generations know… what is was like [ during his time /part of history ] etc.

          • Hi Seeker,

            I tend to have a bit of a different take on the “I” in Stanza 1. I do think that this is Forrest speaking. For me, Forrest is stating that wherever he went he alone, he took the loot with him, he stashed it, then he provides us with a hint to help get us to get started on our search. I also try not to get too terribly stuck on that first Stanza, especially since the clues to actually find the treasure seem to start on those next few lines below. I do try to keep some of the descriptive information from Stanza 1 in the back of mind, for later use, just in case those lines really do describe the final resting place of the chest.

            Anyways, here’s how I read the “I’s” in Stanza 1:

            Forrest Fenn has gone alone in there
            And with his treasures bold,
            He can keep his secret where,
            And here’s a hint to get you started of riches new and old.

            I would have a pretty tough time inserting “me” as the “I” in this part of the poem. It just wouldn’t make any sense to me…I certainly don’t have a secret to keep and my treasures probably aren’t all that bold either, and I never went in there alone (at least not yet), etc.

            In the end, the “I’s” from Stanza 5 mess me up a lot more than the “I’s” from Stanza 1.

            Thanks again for your reply,

            All IMO.


          • SRW,

            My problem with stanza 1 as being a type of intro doesn’t make sense to me. We have an intro in the book just before the poem and explanations of what kicked of the idea of ‘taking it with him’

            Unless fenn needed the line “and hint of riches new and old” even before any clue was mentioned. So I can see why some think stanza 1 contains a clue… lol but then again, fenn calls everything a clue.

      • SRW,

        I take your example #3. Instead of a hill side, we can also use other things like words or ideas. My favorite is an idea, like a process or a method.

        • Hi OZ10,

          Interesting that a few are even considering example #3. I thought for sure that I was gonna get bashed for that one….LOL!


          • Seeker,

            You stated: My problem with stanza 1 as being a type of intro doesn’t make sense to me. We have an intro in the book just before the poem and explanations of what kicked of the idea of ‘taking it with him’

            I’m not trying to split hairs here but it is my understanding that we don’t actually need the book, though it might be helpful for some. And I personally have never even read the book, even though I do have one. Also, Forrest did say something to the effect that everything that you need (to find the chest) is in the poem (paraphrasing).

            And, since we also know that the first clue can be found in Stanza 2, why wouldn’t Stanza 1 be an intro? And the hint (that I think I found) is definitely what got me started in at the location where I am looking. I like to think that my interpretation of what I think is a hint at least helps to justify exactly why I am looking where I’m looking. It beats the heck out of throwing darts. IMO.

            You also said: Unless fenn needed the line “and hint of riches new and old” even before any clue was mentioned. So I can see why some think stanza 1 contains a clue… lol but then again, fenn calls everything a clue.

            I’ll just say this: Stanza 1 does not contain a clue. Rather, it contains a hint. They are different. A hint will help you with a clue, a clue will get you closer to the chest (paraphrasing again). IMO.

            Thanks again for helping me to think!

            All IMO.


        • Hi Oz –

          I like your thinking on the ingredients and cake. You mentioned synonyms. Here is my favorite group of synonyms as relates to the effort here.

          Blueprint, recipe, secret, key. In the poem the word hat “is key” is secret. Are there other words that are key? How about in the book? Does he discuss recipes, blueprints or secrets in the book? I think so.

          • Lugz,

            I like blueprint more than recipe. Maybe it is the key. The poem kinda says that there is a key on the 5th stanza and confirms it too.

          • Oz

            If you look back at his statements he is drawing attention to the word secret.

            First he says few are focused on a word that is key, but no one picks up what he is laying down.

            So then he he says it’s a blueprint and again no one connects to the word secret.

            Then he says How about it’s a recipe? ‘Cause I’m running out of ways to tell you to look at the word secret which halps understand how to solve the clues.


      • In fact, speaking of methods, if I ever needed to find a relationship between the 1st and 5th stanza this one works very well. Hell, the whole poem makes a lot more sense this way. Another synonyms for method are technique, strategy and recipe.

        Stanzas 1,5 and 6- impersonates the recipe.
        Stanzas 2 and 3- the steps and ingredients (the *it*)
        Stanza 4- The Cake

        • OZ10,

          I like it. Except Stanzas 2,3.4 and 6 are my ingredients.

          Thanks again for the thoughts.

          All IMO.


          • Poor stanza #5 – no one seems to understand her, and she is left standing on the sidelines – JDA

          • OZ10.

            You stated: Well, that works too. The finish product needs icing, sprinkles and a glass tray, etc…

            LOL…It needs a box! To funny. You made me think of one of those pink boxes, like from the bakery!

            Thanks for the morning giggle!


          • JDA

            You said: Poor stanza #5 – no one seems to understand her, and she is left standing on the sidelines – JDA

            Here’s my biggest problem with Stanza 5.

            For me, after picking out what I think are the actual 9 clues, I’m basically left with Stanza 5 as Fennspeak. At the same time, I can also see a few snippets of information from Stanza 5, that might also be a clue, and this is what forces me to re-number what I already thought were the 9 clues. I have to re-number my clues in order to make room for the new (possible clue) from Stanza 5. And in doing this, I have to consolidate other things that I had already determined what I thought was a clue. There are only 9 clues to be found in the poem after all…not 10.

            Anyways, that’s pretty much where I’m at with Stanza 5.

            All IMO.


          • SRW;

            My consolidation occurred early.
            Stanza #1 = Prelude
            C #2 = PIBTHOB
            C #3 = FTINPFTM – TEIEDN
            C #4 = TBNPUYC – JHLAWH
            C #5 = all of stanza #4
            C #6 = SWIITIMG – ALMTFATS
            C #7 = TAIAK – IDITANIW
            C #8 = SHMAALG – YEWBWTG
            C #9 = IYABAITW – IGYTTTG

            You, and other’s may not agree, and that is OK – Just how I see it, and it works for me – JDA

          • Thanks JDA. My line-up is pretty similar to yours with the exception of whether or not I include anything from Stanza 5. I also have clues in all of the Stanzas, other than Stanza 1 and of course, whatever I decide to do with that pesky #5.

            All IMO.

            Thanks again.


  9. In our searches I believe most look straight forward and not paying attention to what is on either side. When some have been within 200 ft of the treasure and walked right on by, weren’t seeing what was on either side.

    I think F said something about not looking at what is next to us, I simply cannot find it. If so I think its good advice.

    Just say’n

    • camouflaged, one of the clues is not seen, or cannot be seen. Easy to walk past, even if you know what you are looking for. The early searchers where most of these ATF’s come into play, had no idea what they were looking for. To come within 500′ or even 200′ means absolutely nothing. These searchers might not have known one clue. So easily anybody could have been within these distances, since nobody will stumble upon the treasure, those early searchers might as well have been in Idaho, because they had no clue they were close to the chest, but the fact is, they were no where close at all. They might as well have been just anybody walking around, possibly able to stumble on the chest. So 500′ or 200′ is a border. A spot where there is a turnoff for the one who actually knows what they are doing. Then again, we don’t know if f is talking distance or elevation. 500′ or 200′ of elevation difference could actually be a mile or two. Obviously, many have been within this distance. His ATF, of Summer coming and the chest will hear the footsteps of hikers again confirms that many people, searchers or non searchers have been this close. Means nothing at all. The only thing to take away is that there is a trail, that it’s in a place that is hiked, and that there may be a reason to hiking this way. Maybe ski lines, fishing spot, whatever, to get to.
      hoB was never mentioned as a clue by f, not a good idea to confirm that it is. For all we know, hoB could be a dead tree, and Brown being a centipede. Could also be used in a future tense, so to say hoB is a clue is just wrong, and only an opinion. Clues are line 5, and blaze. All we can confirm.

      • Charlie…I always read your posts and find some good thoughts to ponder, even though I do not agree with your numbers and coordinates approach to the poem. You have stuck to your guns on that avenue since the early days and kudos to that. One idea in this comment strikes me as odd, that being your take on hob. HOB surely must be rather important as a *location* regardless of *what* it actually is…don’t you think? It does not particularly make sense to have such a *subjective* unknown incorporated into a poem/map to find treasure if it is not significant enough to be a clue. Or, are you just saying that Fenn hasn’t *confirmed/clarified* hob as a clue…so don’t say it is, period?

        • Hey Ken, I think I was a little abrupt in my post. Searchers can see hoB as a clue all they want, it may be, I just don’t get that EVERYBODY thinks it’s a clue, when f has never said that it was. That’s all.
          From that point in the poem, from f’s point of view to say, and trying to tell us what is going on, he could easily just be looking ahead and state a fact. That “it” is below something that would be home to something with “Brown” in it’s name.
          The popular consensus on the line is that a searcher must “enter” into something which is below something considered “Brown”.
          To me Ken, it’s just to much of a general type comment. Even though “Brown” may stick out in the poem, that just seems to obvious, especially for f. It’s line #16, is it obvious we just take the chest, or, is there something else entirely? It seems obvious that at line 16, you get the chest, but I highly doubt that you do at that point. Especially when you are given title to the gold in line 24.
          Ken, I think hoB is more of support info to the end spot. Like he said, if he told us hoB, we would go right to the chest. (paraphrasing).
          Since we are no where close to the end at line #8, it doesn’t seem to be an obvious clue. If that is the case, then it may be just a hint to a later clue, and the statement more in line with future tense.
          With everyone looking at it as a clue, I would think that new searchers might read that I just figure it is one, since everyone says it must be. So I throw a wrench in the cogs, just to remind that f has never said it is a clue.
          Yes, I’m on the coordinates thing, so you might know that I am more of the “solve the poem” type and the clues will solve themselves. I also believe that all the clues cannot be solved, hence solving the poem to get a spot, to find a path, etc…If we only know of two clues, it’s best if when we talk clues, we limit to what we know, all of everything else is really just guessing. It is a guess that hoB is a clue. And, hoB does not help me in putting an “X” on a map, like the poem is suppose to do.
          Again, I do believe that hoB is important, but only as support for a later clue, which is a location.
          I think you know I’m at Anaconda area. My path takes me below a cemetery that has a Brown family plot to it. Or it’s named Brown, I forget at the moment. Even though it’s there, I just don’t see it as a clue. Important, I will admit, but necessary, lol, I question…JMO, of course…

          • Charlie,
            If hoB is information and not a clue… why would it be only info for a ‘later’ clue?
            Does the information in the poem have to be in any order? Use the info to get the actual clues read in consecutive order.

            I mean, As I have gone alone in there… could be simply hoB as; in there.
            The location of all the clues. Then we start at the first clue. fenn tells us; all the information to find the chest is in the poem.. does all the information have to be in consecutive order?

            So I kinda agree with the idea hoB not being a clue and more important info. This might be the reason fenn didn’t count clues until the poem was done… he needed to fit ALL the info in the poem for a solution to deciphering clues and still have it in poem form, yet not wanting it blatantly obvious to the idea of Clues vs. Info.
            The idea of using the info to ‘try and simplify the clues’.. we need to know where WWWH and all the clues are at, first and foremost… and not so much, just looking for a WWH source.

            Clues are in consecutive, yet is the “All the information”?

            I’ll add; this idea of marrying the clues to a map is rather funny to me. Many seem to be manufacturing a wwwh source/reference and looking at maps for answers to all the other clues. Shouldn’t we have some idea what to look for-?- beforehand?

            … you over simplify the clues… look at the big picture…[ the many WWH in the RM’s Q&A]
            LOL be a bit funny if hoB was that picture.

          • CBC As It Happens 3/5/2013 radio interview
            In response to Fenn “…there are nine clues in the poem…”
            Carol Off: Well some of them seem…Some of the clues maybe are things that people locally would know. You say, “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down. Not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown.” That seems like a couple of clues to me.
            Fenn: Sounds like three or four to me.
            Off: I guess you have to know where the home of Brown is.
            Fenn: That’s right
            Off: Okay
            Fenn: And you have to know where warm waters halt.
            Off: Ah-ha. But it says there’ll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high. Mmm, couple more there.
            Fenn: Sounds like it to me.

          • LOL Ken,

            But, But, errr fenn didn’t ‘say’ hoB “was/is” a clue.. I didn’t see confirmation in that comment…. ha! ok you can shoot me now.

            Personal note; no matter how hard I try not to ‘look’ for clues and make a judgement call on what it or is not, I still do.

          • no shooting…waste of dull bullets. just comical the pick and choose which comments are *straight forward* and which are not. back to my lab.

          • Ken, I agree, you need to know where hoB is. Because then you will be at the chest, right? Too early in the poem, line 8, to be at the chest. So the question should be, how can one even think that it is a clue?
            If he told us where hoB was, then we could go right straight to the chest. If it was a clue, that means you can forget all the clues afterward. We don’t need them, we are already at the chest. Since that cannot be the case, then going to hoB means being at the chest, which by line 8 means that the hoB cannot be a clue, And the line in the poem is in a future tense format.

            By capitalizing a word, making it stand out, I’m sure f would know this, and know searchers would flock trying to solve for it. It’s just like f to not make it a clue, because so obvious.
            I’m sure he knows what “put in” would make the average person think, making it a clue. Getting closer to the chest. His ATF about , paraphrasing, if you knew hoB you would go right to the chest, now makes hoB at the chest. That just cannot be from line 8.

            Seeker, again, I agree, Marrying the clues to a map is, well, foolish at best. Like you said, searchers start to manufacture places that may yield a path that sounds good, but in the end is just a guess. Forget the map until the end is what I would suggest. Solve the poem, see what you get. Solving the poem, then finding on a map where it takes you.

            The thing about the clues though, I don’t think the searcher will know before hand what they are looking for. I just think the path will contain the clues and be obvious. Example, a searcher may have clue 3 as a border, or a place not to go. Not knowing what they are looking for, on their path, they come up to a no trespassing gate, at the edge of the forest. The searcher didn’t know about this gate before but now can see it is clue 3. And then they continue on their path to the spot the poem gave them.

            It’s not possible to solve all the clues, some cannot be solved, we know this from his ATF’s. Maybe an idea, but on some clues, we won’t know. I think that is the one thing that searchers have not considered for a winning solve. That not all the clues can be solved. It’s more likely that a spot, an “X” on a map can be solved for and thus, a path to take. Which would start at wwwh.

          • Charlie: I think you place waaay too much importance on a single (in my opinion) flippant remark made by Forrest regarding home of Brown. An honest, unbiased viewing of the video would tell you that there is very likely no significance to Forrest’s reply to Jennifer: “Well, that’s for you to find … if I told you that, you’d go right to the chest!” I encourage people to watch Jennifer London’s interview for themselves and draw their own conclusions about how serious Forrest was or wasn’t being:


            The relevant portion starts about 10:40 in.

          • charlie, I don’t agree with the numbers thing you got going but I do agree that HOB is the one clue that draws too much attention and a lot of searchers tend to create their solve around something or someone named Brown.

            I think HOB is only known by Fenn and can be only figured out by skipping this clue and focusing more on “put in” and then see if the next clues fit.

            Don’t bother trying to figure out HOB 1st or create your solve around it in any way. Start with WWWH and go from there.

            No, it’s not possible to solve all the clues. There has to be one clue that only he knows and that is HOB IMO.

          • Well….folks can speculate all day long about whether HOB is a clue or not…and which comment proves or disproves which or what. The fact remains…folks have deciphered/figured out the first two clues, some folks have been 200feet/500feet from the treasure chest, and somewhere around the third clue have left the poem. Huh!
            Seems to put HOB right smack dab in the mix….

          • In my solve NFBTFTW and PIBTHOB are the combined third clue or number 3 and 4. In both scenarios the give a destination point to vector…

          • Forrest has said (paraphrasing) that there are many WWWH’s north of Santa Fe. I will go a step farther to say that there are many WWWH’s adjacent to canyons that are north of Santa Fe. A home of Brown will confirm that you are looking at the correct canyon and WWWH. IMHO, I believe that WWWH, the canyon down, and hoB are three separate clues, but all three must be evaluated as a triple package when searching for a solve area.

            I will also say that I believe that hoB will not be readily apparent until arrived at by following a canyon down from WWWH. I do not think that starting a solve by defining what one believes hoB to be is the correct way to go. There are no shortcuts. I believe that the hoB requires some imaginative interpretation, which is why people have gone right past it after solving the first 2 clues. I am not sure whether or not it is possible to do this from an armchair, or if it requires BOTG. I am hoping that the former is true, because there are too many WWWH’s with canyons to give me any firm direction to head out on a BOTG search.

          • Blex,
            I kinda agree…
            But we still have the problem of WWH to find. Whether or not hoB confirms anything.
            This might be as simple has stanzas 1 5 6 [idea] give up WWH, then we must be in sight to locate the other clues.
            In this case, it would seem some of the key elements might be;
            In there
            Hints of riches new and old
            Answers tired and weak
            And basically, most if not all of stanza 6

            Fenn seems to have made it quite clear, chasing later clues will not help.
            IF hoB can confirm… does it confirm only one location?
            How many hoB [ like WWWH or canyons or creeks etc.] can be found all over the RM’s We just don’t know if there is only one representation to the idea of hoB [hence the idea of fish habitation doesn’t help much]

            The comments about; If you knew hoB you’d go right to the chest, and why be concerned about WWWH if you know hoB… adding fenn’s comment about… nailing down the first clue or stay home, doesn’t say to me we can reference hoB to one place without the correct WWWH’s location.
            It basically says, imo, if you can get to hoB you should already know WWWH and if you can get to hoB the task at hand [chances of finishing the task] has improved dramatically.

            But I have to ask one question;
            Why does a canyon need to be right at WWWH?
            Could WWH be a place we see a canyon from… and maybe… see a hoB, and the ‘three locations’ point to a place, and ~ “from there” ~ is where we need to be at? So in this case your idea; without hoB we don’t have a confirmation of the correct WWWH, works. and give credence to the comments about hoB, as well as, keeping the idea we ‘need’ to nail down wwwh.

            I think ‘nail’ down and ‘marry’ the clues to a place on a map, might be telling us, we need a ‘fix’ location, ‘couple’ the clues together. Or if ya line… make all the lines cross, to figure out where ‘In there’ might be.

            *More thinking and observation…. than trying

          • “Our final guess is that the treasure may be along road 156 in Wyoming.”
            “You cannot solve the problem by starting in the middle of the poem. You should start with the first clue and then solve the other eight in order.”
            Let’s run that through the shredder…

          • Charlie, I have used HOB as the location of the chest for a previous solve myself. You do not have to write off that line as hint though because if you are below HOB then you do not have to be at HOB. In this scenario you put in below it work your way towards it by moving through the remaining clues.

          • Zap, you are right, (that makes twice now), I was going by memory of the ATF. but I don’t put too much emphasis on it. I’ve always, from the start, thought hoB was to general of a statement to be a clue. Always thought he was just looking up the road at that time stating a fact.
            Remember, I see the whole solve as finding a point on a map. which gives my path, which yields my start point. I really don’t care about any middle clues, as long as I can get to my spot, then the 9th clue and key are needed, which I think I know. But all the clue talk again gets me thinking, right or wrong, why can’t we solve for middle clues or later clues first? If you are the clue to clue type? I thought hints help with clues, I never heard him say that the previous clue would be needed to solve for the next clue, and so on. If you solve a clue, then you solve it, and if I had hoB then why would I worry about wwwh? Wouldn’t I have needed wwh to solve for hoB. But if I have hoB, then wwh means nada?
            It just seems to me that if you are a clue to clue searcher, then you are trying to solve for clues instead of solve the poem. These two things are not the same. He has even stated that some clues need botg, so how do we solve clue to clue when we are not botg? How can we go from clue to clue when we don’t know what a previous clue is? And why hasn’t he said that solving the first clue will give you a chance to solve the second and so on, but cannot work ahead, and, botg are needed for some, but you will be confident in your path. How if I don’t know a clue, which would mean I don’t know a clue after that?
            From everything said, getting down to it, it just seems that solving the poem will yield a spot, then a path, then the start point, botg will confirm the clues. I know, JMO, but everyone as of now seems to be trying to solve for clues, and all we have are memories. Starting off marrying what a searcher feels are clues to a map has not produced anything. I’m thinking there are some smart people out there, so if this was the correct way, it would have been found. To me, this is not the way. Trying to solve for all the clues is not the right way. The only thing that we all can agree on is to “solve the poem”. Forget the map, forget the clues, find a way to solve the poem.

            I think f has given us a lot of info. With only nine clues, there must be a lot of support info out there. If you must solve for clues, I think a lot of info will accompany any correct solve of one. Not just double or triple backup in some cases but multiple things, that have been referenced by f, will come to play. So in walking your path, you will know for sure what you see. JMO..

          • Hi Charlie,

            “Zap, you are right, (that makes twice now), I was going by memory of the ATF.”

            I’ll try not to let it go to my head. 😉

            “I’ve always, from the start, thought hoB was to general of a statement to be a clue.”

            Well, that’s what makes the clues difficult: they are *all* generic-sounding: WWWH, home of Brown (assuming it’s a clue), the blaze, etc. So in that respect, I don’t think hoB is any more general than the others.

            Also, consider Forrest’s red herring comment. If it isn’t a clue, it’s hard to argue that hoB isn’t a red herring when it has the only capitalized word (other than I/I’ve) not beginning a line.

            “Remember, I see the whole solve as finding a point on a map.”

            Well, we all do. It’s just that you’ve decided not to allow the clues to lead you to that point.

            “But all the clue talk again gets me thinking, right or wrong, why can’t we solve for middle clues or later clues first?”

            Because they are too generic.

            “If you are the clue to clue type? I thought hints help with clues, I never heard him say that the previous clue would be needed to solve for the next clue, and so on.”

            He said that the clues must be solved *in order*. The exact quote:

            “You cannot solve the problem by starting in the middle of the poem. You should start with the first clue and then solve the other eight in order.”

            Those instructions seem pretty crystal clear to me.

            “It just seems to me that if you are a clue to clue searcher, then you are trying to solve for clues instead of solve the poem.”

            There is no difference: solving the clues IS solving the poem. The poem is solved when you’ve solved all 9 clues. I really think there is no other way.

            “He has even stated that some clues need botg, so how do we solve clue to clue when we are not botg? Starting off marrying what a searcher feels are clues to a map has not produced anything.”

            On the contrary: a number of searchers have solved the first two clues, and some may have solved more than that. We don’t have a recent report from Forrest on searchers’ clue progress, but for him to have even a “gut feeling” that the chest could be found this summer suggests there has been a bit of a state-change since almost three years ago when he wrote “Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.”

          • Aaron, but then, are you not saying that hoB would need to be an actual place which references a name? If this is a clue, you need to solve that clue within that line, what in line 8 gives the exact spot of a hoB? If you can solve for this spot, from the poem like you are suppose to, from line 8, then you don’t need the previous clues, you would already know where you must “put in”. Looking at it this way, which may be right or wrong, can you see that having a spot would then take the clues out of the picture? If I have the end spot, then the only clue that is important is the last.
            To solve for hoB, you must be in line #8, that would have to be the clue. So a clue to clue solver has to solve from there, anything else would mean that other info would become the clue. If you have a path to follow, and botg allows the clues to come to play by following your path, it seems much easier to solve by what part of the path you are on in correlation to the poem. It’s the clue part of thinking that hoB must be a clue that I question, because I don’t see solving for that clue from the info I get from line 8. Too many possibilities, too general of a term. Just an obvious point in a poem that draws your attention.
            I know there will be skeptics, but so many think it as a clue, what if. Is a solve centered around this part of the poem? If so, then what?
            Then, zap, an emphasis needs to be made on his comments. Joking or otherwise. Even liars to a story will blend a little truth in there. From f’s comments, not that emphasis on the context, but he did say what he said. And I don’t think of him as a liar…

          • Clearly…that idea just defies logic in my estimation. There are some folks that have spent a lot of time with that theory….

          • Charlie, for the solve that I used HOB as the site of the treasure the solution is simply that it is above me. PIBTHOB, for this general solve, only meant that after I park I will be headed north. So your basically parking at a place that is NPFTM that is connected to the remaining clues. You follow them to HOB aka the treasure site.

            It wasn’t my favorite solve by any means but I like to try out different strategies. FF says “the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust.” People that keep attempting to solve the poem the same way may never find it.

          • After all these years, I finally have figured out what I believe is the correct WWWH. Once I discovered it, it is very clear what “it” is in the line, Take “it” in the Canyon Down. It is a named very heavily traveled trail and it leads to a HOB that I never considered before. This WWWH was very important to Forrest in his adult years, and he spent a lot of time there.
            Just heavy loads and water high, is the actual hiding (not buried) location. Wood is key.
            I made 5 trips back in 2013, maybe it is finally time to go back. A map has finally merged with the poem.
            Keeping my fingers crossed.

          • Charlie;

            Sometimes your logic evades me.

            The way I count my clues now-a-days – First 3 lines od stanza #2 = clue #1 PIBTHOB = clue #2

            That being said – For clue #1 I have to solve three elements
            1) What is WWWH
            2) Decide on a canyon
            3) decide how far down that canyon I need to go.

            Clue #2 = PIBTHOB

            In a way, I have to decide what my hoB is BEFORE I can determine EXACTLY how far down the canyon I need to go – SO Clue #2 helps define NFBTFTW.

            All I am saying is that it is an iterative process. We have to understand ALL of the contents of the poem in order to solve individual elements within the poem. What is a CLUE? What is a HINT – for me somewhat arbitrary. I number certain things clues – just for the sake of separating the poem into something that makes sense to me or to someone I speak with. I have changed my “Titles” as to what is a CLUE and what is a HINT multiple times – I try not to get too caught up in the clue/hint thing – JDA

        • Which ff comment unmistakably confirms that hoB is a location? It is a clue with instructions but not a location.

          • Off: I guess you have to know *where* the home of Brown is?
            Fenn: That’s right.

            Off: Okay.

            Fenn: And you have to know where warm waters halt.

          • “If you are sure about the *location* of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?”

          • Ken and others,
            could those quotes……
            maybe be used to open up the idea, that we go through the poem more than once and get different instructions/direction/information different times through….
            one time through HoB is a place and you have to know where warm waters halt

            Another time through the poem if you know HoB you do not need to be concerned about where warm waters halt….

          • Clearly,

            I think Fenn has been the most clear on the importance of finding the first clue.

            My opinion on that is hush hush for now because I like to tell myself that my ideas are better than they generally are despite a large number of counter examples (and empty backpacks) as I still like to pretend I have an air of mystery.

          • JDA,

            Your comments above are very much in line with my way thinking. Makes perfect sense to me. IMO.

            Pretty much leans towards yesterdays discussions, I think. IMO.


          • I think each line of stanza #2 is a specific geographical clue. Mr. Fenn himself has been quoted as saying stanza #2 has “3 or 4 clues” so if you don’t have at least 3 clues in stanza #2 then you may want to revisit some of those ff quotes. I could have misunderstood his comment.

            I personally believe there are 4 clues in stanza #2. My logic, try removing one of them and see if you can find the treasure. Technically, no one has found the treasure with all the lines there but, I think you get the point. All IMO.

          • Hi SRW,

            Your logic is good. Can’t disagree. I thought he was shooting straight that day even though I know he isn’t always a straight shooter. Could be a critical error on my part.

            Thanks for addiing and clarifying. J.O.

          • Zap, I finally see why we differ so much, you believe that solving the poem is solving the clues, while I see solving the poem as solving the poem, nothing to do with clues.
            Makes it much easier. To me, solving the poem is not identical to solving the clues. Two entirely different things.
            I can see solving for clues if we knew what was considered a clue. Or what a clue was , but we don’t, and nothing in the poem tells us. The only way to solve for clues, going clue to clue, is to guess at a starting point, reference a map and marry like lines in the poem to places on the map that coincide, and then come up with reasons that fit a solve. F didn’t count the clues until he was done. That means he wrote the poem not thinking of having to solve clues, maybe some, but not all. The poem was not written like this. If he never said there are 9 clues, then what would everyone be doing?
            And look at the poem, you cannot get a starting spot from the first 5 lines. How? With the 5th line nailing down the clue, there is no mention of coordinates, no places, no nothing, so to start at the beginning is a guess, that is all it comes down to. And we know that f said no guessing. That is what clue to clue solvers have to address. How does the poem solve for a clue, and how do you know what a clue is? And, we have f stating that botg are needed for some of the clues, a physical presents. How can a searcher solving clue to clue be confident if he/she does not know what one or two clues are? The path will be straight for the one who knows, but if solving clue to clue, how can not knowing some of the clues get to where you are going, to be right?
            Almost all the write ups start with a certain place a searcher feels fits wwwh. Never explain how they solved getting to the spot with the poem. Always starts with a guess by the searcher then we hear how different places seem to follow the poem. Because they are trying to force fit clues. Remember f saying that solving a clue isn’t actually knowing what it is, just that you arrive at the spot, well anyone can do that, but for clues 5-9, a knowledge has to be known, also botg. Just because people have been within 200′ means nothing. They obviously did not solve the clues, if you are a solve the clues type. So, without solving clues you can get within 200′? Then we are looking at very small needed variations to pin point, but to date, nothing. Let’s say the 4th clue is within 200′, because that is the info that we can seem would fit. So, draw a circle with a 200′ diameter and tear the place apart. Right?
            All I’m saying is that if the poem cannot give you a solve for a clue, then what? f says that is true and botg are needed, so why even the question. Some clues cannot be solved, that means the clue to clue peeps stop right at where botg are needed. But yet, from home, we are suppose to be able to find the spot where the chest is. How can this be if some of the clues cannot be solved? Only because the poem solve will give the spot, not solve all the clues.
            JDA, look at what you are saying, you have to decide this and that, you never say that you need to solve a part of the poem that will give you your answer. You have to decide, that’s guessing JDA. And, what is wwh? Can you figure one out without looking at a map? Just with what the poem has to offer? And, all you have to go with is the first 5 lines, with line 5 narrowing it down to a certain place? You have line number 7 as your clue 1, this cannot be, has to be line 5. If you need lines 5,6, and 7 to solve for clue 1, this cannot be, line 5 solves for clue 1.
            This is what searchers don’t get that Loco put out there a while back. Once you solve for a clue, that becomes the clue. It’s soooo true. If you need lines 5,6, and 7, then 7 becomes the clue. And that would be wrong.
            My whole thing, what I’m trying to say is that we know we cannot solve all the clues because the info to do so is not out there. We cannot guess, no matter how logical the guess is. The poem puts an “X” on a map, and was not written to specific clue solving. He wrote it to let a searcher go to a spot. Hundreds of clues out there on how to find, because really, a hint is a clue and vice versa, but 9 points of a path that can be distinguished. Some from the poem, some from botg. hoB just may be a clue, but in the context of a hint, because of it’s position in the poem and the ATF’s from f. If you have it as a clue, then you would be roughly 200′ from the chest, but it’s only, at best the 4th clue. Why would you put in anywhere if for the next 5 clues. you have 200′???

          • Charlie: too hard to respond to your full post on a phone. So will just start with the first flaw in yours as I see it. We DO know what the first clue is (BIWWWG) and as far as I’m concerned it is a very precise point that is solvable. There is zero guessing, no dart-throwing, no ambiguity, no uncertainty. If you had that level of surety, would it change your opinion? Perhaps not, but you might want to factor in that a growing number of searchers have zeroed in on this WWWH.

          • I think Forrest Fenn was always writing clues in the poem from the time he first conceived it. He may not have settled on a total number of nine clues until later, but this place was so special to him that he was putting architectural touches on a riddle that would lead someone to it for years.

          • Zap. as far as wwwh, I go by his ATF when I say the info isn’t out there. It may be too much emphasis on the ATF, but from what I see, it’s right. That’s not to say I’m right, I just don’t believe it can be solved. JMO. If you have figured a way, that’s great, I definitely would be happy to read it someday, I’m just skeptical. Maybe my skepticism comes from reading so many “darts thrown at a board” solves, or so much “guessing” at a start point.
            Like I said, if yours’ is the opposite, it would be a nice read. But you are right, (3), if I was so sure, I might not change my view, (which I am).
            Where I disagree is that searchers have zeroed in on the first clue.
            I believe our understanding of a clue differs from Fenn’s. His is if a searcher winds up at the spot wwwh is, then that is solving the clue. But yet searchers have been there but didn’t know it. To f, that is first clue solved. To me, and pretty much everyone else, those searchers had no idea, so not solved. Just fortunate. Searchers might end up there quite a bit, but actually knowledge of why and actually solving the clue, I haven’t heard of one yet. (keep in mind f’s understanding of solved compared to what we would consider solved).
            To us, solved is meaning that they ended up at that place because of how they solved the poem, and most likely will have knowledge of the clues to follow. To show how a searcher solved for the first clue from the poem, the process of doing so, and the reasons that it is wwwh is, and the understanding, is a lot different then just showing up. That’s what is solving the first clue is to me, that is the one that will have more of a chance of finding the chest, and not just walking by. So, searchers zeroed in, no, I can’t see that yet. Until f actually says that searchers have understood where they were at and why, a 100,000 searchers may have been to the spot, means nada. And definitely doesn’t mean they are zeroed in. For all I know, just you and I are zeroed in, and one of us is wrong, if not both.
            The only thing I know is that my numbers are right, and that is if there are numbers. If there are numbers, then most likely there are coordinates. Which if there are, I have a good chence. I give it about 0.01% chance to find, I think that is pretty good. Because even that equates to a chance to find, 100%.
            I still find it almost comical that two solves could have different solutions and each solver totally sure of themselves. I’m just dumb enough to maybe, possibly figure this out, because the solve I have, lol, no way I figured on my own. Just not smart enough to have it all mesh so well. I have a hard enough time explaining it, let alone getting my cat to understand English. Someday. we will see…

          • Hi Charlie,

            “Maybe my skepticism (about the solvability of WWWH) comes from reading so many “darts thrown at a board” solves, or so much “guessing” at a start point.”

            That skepticism is well-placed if all you have to go on is the published failed solutions. Nearly every WWWH I’ve seen was a dart throw (e.g. some random warm spring), or a location that critically depended on information not found in the poem or TTOTC (e.g. Ojo Caliente). Only Madison Junction rises to something resembling a clever solution, but even it is not unique in the Rockies.

            “Like I said, if yours’ is the opposite, it would be a nice read.”

            Well, mine certainly isn’t arbitrary. It is a simple geometric solution to the marriage of a key word (or word that is key, if you prefer) with a riddle’s answer. It is a solution grounded in logic, not wishful thinking. As such, I didn’t select the spot, nor would I have ever thought to choose it.

          • Zap,

            That is how my current WWWH works:

            “It is a solution grounded in logic, not wishful thinking. As such, I didn’t select the spot, nor would I have ever thought to choose it.”

          • Hi Jeff Osborne,

            You stated: I think each line of stanza #2 is a specific geographical clue. Mr. Fenn himself has been quoted as saying stanza #2 has “3 or 4 clues” so if you don’t have at least 3 clues in stanza #2 then you may want to revisit some of those ff quotes. I could have misunderstood his comment.

            Below is the statement that ff made during an interview back in 2013:

            Off: Well some of them seem…Some of the clues maybe are things that people locally would know. You say, “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down. Not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown.” That seems like a couple of clues to me.

            Fenn: Sounds like three or four to me.

            Fenn is right…those lines do sound like three or four clues. But for me, saying that something “sounds” like versus what something actually is or might be, are two entirely different things to me. IMO.

            The clues are geographic in nature though. I agree with you on that. IMO.


          • Jeff Osborne,

            Here’s something else to think about, in regards to that second Stanza, and about how many clues may or may not be there. For me, in those first three lines, I’m able to get as many as seven or eight individual little bits of information from them. And when combined, that collective information is what then becomes an actual (complete) clue for me. IMO.

            Anyways, just another way to slice and dice it.

            Good luck to you,

            All IMO.


          • SRW,
            Thanks for sharing, will have to give that some thought. Stanza #2 for me currently maps to 4 named locations on a map. So as you can imagine, I was really liking my interpretation of Mr. Fenn’s comments about stanza #2.

            Best of luck to you on your search!

      • Charlie,
        You said,
        camouflaged, one of the clues is not seen, or cannot be seen. Easy to walk past, even if you know what you are looking for.

        IMO stanza 5 tells you what to look for, it is kinda camouflaged and I too walked by it the first time.

        • Yup, I can see that. For me, the blaze is camouflaged, and marvel gaze gives me insight to it. Also, have coordinates to the exact spot, along with something in line 13 that gives marvel gaze. So that begs to be asked, how do we solve for it as a clue from this line when so many other parts of info make up the clue? (saying this would be correct). If, like you say. another later line solves for that clue, it’s that line that becomes the clue. If the blaze is a clue, (which we know it is), then if a later line solves for it, then that line needs to be categorized as the clue. So, knowing the blaze is a clue, that line must be the end of the means. Other info, like you say, could support that clue, but the solve for that clue must come from line 13. There must be something in line 13 that solves for the blaze. (using the blaze as an example, goes for all clues).
          So, Birdie, for whatever clue you feel is camouflaged, like you say, support info could come later, but the actual solve to that clue has to come at that clue line, or word, or whatever. Or, the later info then would be the clue and we would be jumping around.
          The thing about the blaze, I will use mine, is that line 13 solves for marvel gaze, another outside source gave me exact coordinates to a place that had something there, marvel gaze. My blaze is in the landscape, but nothing told me what, where, and how. But I do know marvel gaze, and know the blaze is above that. So botg were needed. My point is, line 13 did not actually solve for the blaze. This, to me, is the one clue that is the turning point. The use imagination part, the can’t drive around looking for the blaze, because it is one clue that cannot be solved. A good deduction can be made and followed, but not exact knowing. It’s just that point of my path has me a clue 4, at that spot, and something is there. Tough way to solve for a clue. That’s why I contend that solving the poem will give the spot you must go to. That’s all that is important, jmo…

  10. My guess from his atf comments seem to impose all the clues being within a few miles of each other. Obviously the most important is wwwh then hob as a waypoint, then the others in close proximity. Cant think of anything else he could be hinting at.

    • A bit annoying that they went to all the effort to recite the poem while simultaneously scrolling it in the video … and yet said and wrote: “The end is drawing ever nigh;”

      Don’t mess with my poem.

      • Great catch. I didn’t like the use of stock “generic old guy” photos for FF. How hard is it to use a real picture?

      • The video was a little bit entertaining…but their lack of information/and understanding said info overall was less than impressive. Fun is fun though…

    • That IS a really entertaining video. It’s easy to see why it’s popular, even though there are a couple of errors — in the two transposed words in the poem and the reference to Forrest carrying the treasure in only one trip instead of two. But the logic of the narrators is reasonable and probably reflects thought processes similar to those most of us have considered at some point.

    • Interesting and fun video.
      They have a better chance than most, lol, they are in the correct state.

  11. I know this isn’t the right spot but, isn’t it wonderful how much money was raised for Jamie!
    I hope it gives her a decent down payment and a fresh new start 🙂

  12. In TTOTC there is a scrapbook photo of fishing spots with Hebgen Lake being in the center. (If I am recalling it correctly).
    Why are all the spots that are geographically east of Hebgen on the west side of the pic of Hebgen, and all the spots that are geographically west of Hebgen on the east side of the pic of Hebgen?

    • Question Wayne;

      The pages you refer to are 122 & 123. I would guess that the layout person “Laid-out_ the photo’s and had no idea about the geography of Hebgen lake. He had 3 PIC’s of Dad, one of Mom, One of Forrest and one of June and a batch of fish. If you had no knowledge of Hebgen geography, how would you have laid them out? Just a guess .

      I see no sinister motive here, nor a hint – JMO – JDA

      • JDA,

        I thought that at first, too. But this looks like an actual page taken out of a photo album. Notice the shadows behind the the photos, the frayed/torn edges on the scrapbook paper. It looks like someone photographed already assembled piece to me.
        You’re probably right. It’s probably confIrmation bias steering me that way. I looked at it as subtle hint towards the importance of ISA Lake in the solve.

        • You may well be correct It probably IS a page from an album. If it is, then whoever laid out the page – probably long before the “Chase” started – gave no thought to the geography around Hebgen and was just looking for “Balance” – Just a guess – JDA

    • I have often wondered about the significance or insignificance of those pages. So many photos, taking up 2 pages. One would at least pause and ask why so many photos laid out like that and why the Lovely brown color palate. And the outline the photos create, is that a hint? One day someone will find Indugence and let us know.

      But to my knowledge none of the locations are west of Hebgen lake.

      • Hi Jeff: Watkins Creek is west of Hebgen Lake. What I find a little anomalous is that the main title for the collection of pictures is “YELLOWSTONE PARK 1942.” But Hebgen Lake and Watkins Creek are not in Yellowstone.

        • Yes, that’s interesting.

          I guess I was thinking Watkins creek was actually south of main body of the lake running north into main body of lake but before or east of Hebgen dam. I honestly have never been there so I stand corrected. But either way it’s definitely not in Yellowstone.

          • I guess that could make that one location a special exception. I think that’s in the general area where he lumberjacked. It’s on my list of search areas but I have not spent time developing a general solution. Hope to check it out one day.

        • Hebgen lake and Watkins Creek are in Yellowstone.
          Watkins Creek is on the South side of Hebgen.
          How can we trust your WWWH if you don’t even know where these simple geographical features are Zap?

          • Jake: not sure what map you’re reading. Neither Hebgen nor Watkins Creek are anywhere close to being in Yellowstone. As a veteran visitor of Montana, you should know better.

          • You searchers are confusing Yellowstone with Yellowstone National park.
            Yellowstone is in Idaho, Montana and Wyoming.
            The Greater Yellowstone ecosystem.
            I suppose West Yellowstone is not Yellowstone either by your maps.

          • Jake: we’re talking about a picture caption in TTOTC, not ecosystem boundaries. The caption says “Yellowstone PARK”. Neither Hebgen nor Watkins Creek are within the Park. QED.

          • Zap –

            May I make a suggestion?

            Stop saying things so definitely, stop thinking so.

            Jake is correct. There is no mystery in saying I was in Yellowstone all summer and caught a lot of bananafish in Hebgen.

            Most people don’t care where the government assigns the border currently.


          • Bottom line is the our government declared the boundaries of YNP and the people see it as a much larger area including West Yellowstone, the Madison’s and a good part of Gallatin National forest and a lot more.

            Your maps are skewed.

          • Lugnutz and Jake: I think you will find it rather legally relevant which land parcels are within YNP and which are not. Forrest’s photo caption used the word PARK. That’s the only point I was making. The “greater Yellowstone Ecosystem” is not relevant as far as those fishing pictures are concerned. Forrest certainly knows where the park boundaries are, and strictly from a fishing perspective, those boundaries are pretty relevant for a fisherman trying to not run afoul of the law.

          • Lugz,
            Nice little map… ” the greater YS area”

            When we give a name to a place, we automatically create boundaries for that place, or follow the preconceived notion it as to have a boundary. NP vs. Area, line of thinking. We created the park… nature created the Area.

            While we are told to look at maps, and the more detailed a map the better, ya have to wonder ‘What Details’?
            GE is satellite image [ nothing more than a picture ] In some cases, those pictures are obscured by clouds and shadow [ on any particular day ]… the point is… boundaries and borders, historical points, labels/labeling etc. are added.

            Do we needed them?
            I wonder if fenn [hypothetically] simply stated ‘satellite imagery’ [ rather than a web site ] if it would be the same…
            Is that not what the poem is relaying??? imagery; visual descriptive language of the land.

            I mean if we look at a map of the US from the1930’s or even from 1830’s compared to today, many labels and borders and boundaries, names have been changed, relabeled, or never was… I wonder what the US [RM’s search area] will look like on a labeled map in 3009?

            LOL.. Meek, Russel, L&C… didn’t need no stinking map. Joseph Meek hiked a mountain just to get his bearings, right?
            *GE and/ “or” a good map.*

          • Seeker –

            Forrest has given us to reference points to looking down on the map of actual landscape that the map represents.

            Flying at 500 feet and Google Earth.

            I think there is a height above the landscape at which you can see all the clues. It’s a matter of perspective. I will add that he also gave us 8.25 miles among other distances.

          • Lugz,
            I get it…
            What I saying is, when you’re flying 500′ above do you see names, boundaries etc.

            If GE is good enough on its own for what details are needed?… the same as flying over an area, or birds-eye view.

            Are the references /points to the clues the same as visual, or do we need lines and road and building on any mapping tool?
            Situ: in the ‘natural’ or original position or place… lines, roads, man made/designed are not natural to the landscape… right?
            I’m just wondering if we need to remove the human factor[s].
            Example; would HLnWH refer to power lines near a water tower-?- or a steel an concrete bridge over trouble waters?… I highly doubt it.

        • Zap, if you go every summer to Europe for vacations and name your picture albums Europe 2010, Europe 2011, etc nobody is going to find it strange if they see pictures of you in Moscow, Morocco or the Middle East on those albums. Let that one go.

          • Oz10: oh, I’m not harping on it. The absence of those two pages from the book in no way interfere with solving the poem.

  13. The 500 foot / 200 foot comment. If drawing circles around point A and point B, for the 200 foot distance the circle has to be drawn 400 feet in diameter, and for the 500 foot distance the circle has to be drawn 1000 feet in diameter. And both point A and point B have to have both circles drawn around them for this system to work. And it’s only necessary to search where the edge of a smaller circle touches the edge of a larger circle. Hope this helps.

    • Or you draw those two circles around the TC…. then you see where the 200-guys could have been and the 500, too…. keep it simple… haha

    • Since the only distances Forrest is addressing are distances from the treasure chest, the relevant 200-foot radius and 500-foot radius circles are concentric, centered on the chest. The 200-footers and 500-footers could have been as close as 300 feet from one another, or as far as 700 feet.

  14. I’m not certain about the math, but it looks like points A and B would have to be either 400 feet apart or 200 feet apart or close to those distances order to bullseye the chest.

    • Looking at it again points A and B would have to be 700 feet apart to bullseye the chest. I think this is right.

  15. Maybe not, but with two sides of a triangle, 200 and 500 feet, should’nt it be possible to calculate the third side, not knowing the angle?

  16. OK this is my last guess, points A and B have to be between 300 feet and 700 feet apart.

    • That is correct… but probably the 55er and the 200er were not standing in one line to the chest, so we‘re probably talking about a triangle with side a=500 side b=200 and c=the distance between the 500er and 200er… it‘s fun to do the math but I doubt that it really helps except you want to confirm a spot you found!

  17. I know that FF said that if you don’t have the solve you may as well stay home and play Canasta. Maybe there is something to the rules of that game that he relates to the chase. I don’t know. What sticks in my mind is the game Go Fish. The name just fits the theme better. And you have to draw from the pool, or as the rules say ‘go fish’. That’s just me.
    Another thing is the phrase ‘hint of treasures new and old’. I wonder if FF had been out searching for treasure when he found the hiding place. In New Mexico there are plenty of lost treasures. One such treasure is in Cimarron Canyon between Ute Park and Cimarron. The story goes:

    Madam Barcelo, a/k/a Senora Toulos, operated a highly profitable bordello, dance hall and saloon in Santa Fe in the booming 1800’s. Throngs of miners, trappers, traders and affluent business men enriched her coffers until she found herself with $150,000 in U.S. gold coins which, in those days, was only safe in the banks at New York. She hired a reputable freighter to transport her coins on the first leg of the journey, to Independence, Missouri. Three days out of Santa Fe, the freighters noticed that they were being trailed by a group of bandits and, that night, buried her 25 buckskin bags of coins in a hole and built a campfire over the spot. The entire caravan was killed by attacking Mexican outlaws except one man named Cortez who managed to escape. Cortez made his way towards Santa Fe making a roundabout route to avoid the bandits who were trailing him. When he reached the town he was in dire condition. He told the story to lawmen and drew a rough map to the treasure site and, two days later, died from his exposure. When word reached Madam Barcelo of the fate of her gold coins she sent a party of close friends with the map to recover the treasure. When the party didn’t return, a search party found the men massacred, scalped and stripped. Since 1839, many searches have been conducted for this rich cache, located in the area of three large rocks, one of which was “half as large as a house” buried beneath a camp fire. The search area is generally given as being between the towns of Ute Park and Cimarron..

    The area between Ute park and Cimarron is full of large rocks along the steep canyon. So that would make the search to recover the old treasure difficult. But if I were under attack by bandits the first thing I would do is head for higher ground and take cover behind a large boulder. There may be a draw that they used to get up behind the boulder. That would fit the poem also.
    One such place is 36°32’37.26″N 105° 1’39.98″W, but good luck getting up there without a pack mule to drag your 80 year old body. But then again, in 1839 they may have taken a completely different trail than we do today.
    It just hints of treasures old.

  18. Funny things people say around the blogs:

    – Nothing is more detrimental to a perfectly good solve than putting boots on the ground-
    – Some searchers are marrying their maps, but divorcing the poem-
    – I’m not failing at solving the poem, I’m just becoming an expert at botg-
    – There are three stanzas that are not relevant to find the treasure, but the importance of the number 3 itself fits my solve perfectly-
    – The best vacations are those spent 200 feet from the treasure-

  19. As an odds and ends post, figured I would share an idea or two that I haven’t been able to fully develop, but may help someone else. One of these was along the lines of needing a “good” map. An individual named L. S. Good contributed to many national forest maps in Wyoming and Montana in the 30’s – he also contributed to a Bighorn national forest map done by F. E. Washburn (which takes some time to find). As there are “basins” on almost every map, which in my opinion could be considered where warm waters halt (wash basin), figured these might be worth looking into to see if place names lined up to clues from there.


  20. Has anyone placed any significance on the fact that there are 66 words from the beginning of the poem to the semicolon, 58 words from the semicolon to the question mark, and 42 words from the question mark to the end of the poem?

  21. Maybe warm waters mean both cold and hot. They Halt at rock. cooking baking recipes.
    Granite rock. Is key word granite rock. Stone as Yellowstone. Obsidian cools fast
    with very little water. granite cools slower with some water content.
    Maybe looking for a Large Granite boulder with stickman carved in it.
    Down a granite canyon. What is in the wood. singular word wood.
    So many rabbit holes. A zillion granite boulders. I think it is a reasonable distance
    from parking the car. It has to be close to the parking spot. One mile at most if
    that. Can granite relate to the nine clues in the poem. Well it can’t solve the poem.
    But maybe WWWH is at Granite Rock.

  22. My solve write-up is complete. No TC has been found. I’m looking for a 2nd set of eyes to tell me I’m okay giving up on my spot before I ship it off to Dal… Jake, are you interested? Get my email from Dal if so…

  23. A couple thoughts today …

    Do you suppose the ‘hint of riches’ refers to the ‘clues’ in the stanzas?
    Is WWWH or HOB or the BLAZE personally ‘rich’ for FF in some way?
    Or are they merely landmarks on the path?

    FF’s birthday is Aug. 22….also, the dreaded end of summer and the 5 day drive back to Temple TX and Miss Ford, so, probably not the anticipated happy day it is for most kids. Could WWWH or HOB be a metaphor for the end of summer and perhaps a resented birth date? …. a symbolic place like the exit gate of Yellowstone, or the lunch at Mummy Joe’s, or the place dad throws the tarp over the cached fishing equipment?

    ‘The end is ever drawing nigh’…. sounds like the horizon to me. Like driving on a long flat plain?

    • One of my solves took me just inside the East Entrance to Yellowstone as he would arrive and depart from that location. Just inside, and approximately 50 miles from Colter’s Hell, is a waterfall on Cody Peak (For me at that time Cody was the omegas and represented the two end points (Cody, WY and Cody Peak). The falls are even visible from the parking location (44.486062, -110.012953)(not from GE street view) which is right next to Middle Creek. I dubbed the falls “Fenn Falls” in honor of Forrest (GE pending).

      Worth noting, the area by the water fall is very steep and not easy to get (a lot of large trees to scamper over) to so definitely fits in the not for an 80 year old man to do in two trips. The only way to get there is to take risks which is a big red flag. I recommend enjoying it from the road along with a few other waterfalls in that same area.

  24. All of the references to the first person in the poem such as;

    in Stanza 1
    ( I ) have gone alone
    (my) treasure
    ( I ) can keep
    (my) secret

    in Stanza 5
    ( I ) must go
    leave (my) trove
    ( I ) already know
    ( I’ve) done it tired
    (I’m) weak

    in Stanza 6
    hear (me) all

    Clearly shows those references to be FF, [first person], also stanzas 1 & 5 is all about FF. So how can those two stanzas contain any clues? They don’t. One is an intro the other a question as to why he left his trove and how F physically felt before and after the treasure was hidden. This is a good explanation of the few words that will not help in finding the treasure.[paraphrased] To think, (as I have seen on this blog), to mean another person is saying the words in the poem, is completely ridiculous, if that were the case that would mean two living people would know where the treasure is at. One would have to die right after the poem was finished, so F is the only one that can keep a secret.

    Does all of this make sense to anyone else?

    My thoughts
    Just Say’n

    • Yes, makes perfect sense to me. But don’t rule them out completely. I like an open mind concept.. just my thoughts.

    • CharlieM ~ ‘…to mean another person is saying the words in the poem, is completely ridiculous, if that were the case that would mean two living people would know where the treasure is at.’

      Apparently you’re not understanding the concept of ‘narrating’…; spoken or written account of.
      Only one would be alive to write the idea of the ‘first person’ who went ‘alone’ which means ‘first’ by they way.
      In stanza 1 “i” can be a narrative of another… look up the word “i” and all it’s usages. I is knowledge of self or self knowledge. I can represent humans.

      So if a comprehensive knowledge might help… and fenn left a bio for future generation to ‘know’ who his was and what he did and what it was like in his time… why can’t “I” represent someone before fenn or all of us as knowledge of self?

      Take it a step further and the use of “treasures” can be of value to the one who owns/owned them, however “trove” is of no ownership [ which fenn left for all to seek ] Why did fenn not use treasures in stanza 5? Why use chest in stanza 4? Especially when each word was deliberate, and we are told not to ignore nouns.

      What I find ‘ridiculous’ [as you put it] is the lack of thoughts for WhatIFs

      • Seeker,

        Really? Ha, there’s no AFTs from you. That certainly is a big WhatIF coming from you. I can practically hear F rolling and laughing with your comeback. Usages sure, but still first person.

    • Why, y, WY, wye is it
      That I must go
      And leave my
      From there, it is no
      There will be no

      I think the instructions for deciphering the poem are in the poem. I just haven’t made it all fit yet.

    • CharlieM: the first stanza is NOT just an intro. I’m not even going to say “in my opinion” because the burden of proof is on the searcher who thinks the first stanza is just intro or fluff. Forrest had 15 years to craft his poem, so he isn’t going to waste a stanza on non-essential information (let alone 3 stanzas!)

      My advice (for what little you think it’s worth) is to treat the first stanza as if it contains critical information without which you will be severely hampered in solving the poem. I am confident that whoever solves Forrest’s poem puzzle will have paid particular attention to deciphering stanza 1.

      • I agree with Zap on this, which is why I still puzzle over stanzas five and six, because most of my clues are before that — with the possible exception of one. However, I do detect other things in the last two stanzas that may be part of Forrest’s own story (then again, maybe I’m just imagining that — ha ha).

        • I think stanza one works in congruence with the final stanza. I interpret the final stanza as a clue that refers to the actual place Forrest enters into alone. So while I absolutely believe stanza one to be full of contextual hints that help us to find our starting point, I also believe that the first stanza helps to confirm the final clue in the final stanza of the poem.

          • I also try to keep an open mind about whether or not Stanza 1 has any useful hints that might need to be used at a later time. But I am not 100% certain about this.

            Has Forrest ever said that there are any actual hints in the poem?

            From what I recall, Forrest has always pretty much said that there are 9 clues in the poem…and subtle hints, to help with the clues, are in the book (paraphrasing). IMO.

            Plus, Forrest has also said that the poem is straighforward and that the clues are contiguous, etc., (paraphrasing again). I try not to bounce around too much with my interpretations of the poem for fear of taking things out of order and really knocking my solve out-of-whack!

            All IMO.


          • SRW, I think the most relevant thing Forrest has said on this topic is from this (the first sentence, but included in whole):

            “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f”

          • I can demonstrate how Stanza 1 could be used to narrow the search area but that doesn’t do much in the way of getting you closer to Indulgence. According to Mr. Fenn, only the 9 clues when followed contiguously will take you physically closer to Indulgence. The first stanza does boosting my confidence in my starting point.

            Right or wrong, the first stanza can be used in that way. Once I return from BOTG, I will share that information in hopes that it is useful or helpful to other searchers.

          • Hi SRW: “Has Forrest ever said that there are any actual hints in the poem?”

            He hasn’t. Might be worth someone asking him point-blank — who knows, he might even answer since I don’t think the answer either way could help anyone. As posted above, the answer to Phil strongly suggests there is additional information (hints?) in the poem beyond the nine clues, otherwise at least 1/6th of the poem could be “discounted” in spite of the danger of doing so.

          • SRW ~’Has Forrest ever said that there are any actual hints in the poem?
            From what I recall, Forrest has always pretty much said that there are 9 clues in the poem…’

            *All the information to find the treasure chest is in the poem…

            Seems to me if ‘all’ the information is in the poem, then some of the information should assist in helping with the clue’s deciphering. And, should the clues only be withing 3 stanzas [2 3 4] that leaves threes stanzas with a lot of “info” to brew over… regardless of what we like to call that “information”

            LOL I find it funny that some readers tear into the book finding hundreds of hints, even answers they believe are directly connected to a clue, or hope all the answers can be derived from maps, while others dismiss 1/2 [or most of 1/2] the poem having little or no help.

            *There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them.

            1/2 the poem contains approx 83 words, lines, phrase etc… not unlike * walked less than a few miles… indicates there should be at least a mile involved [ two trips total ] “a few words” just can’t be 50% of the poem.

            Not unlike fenn saying one afternoon and explains to us “several hours” to our solves twice can’t possibly mean minutes or less than a single hour.

            But I guess we can only hope the horse drinks the water…

            End of commentary

          • Hi Seeker,

            Not sure if there was a question in there for me or not. Anyways, you stated:

            *All the information to find the treasure chest is in the poem…

            And you also said: Seems to me if ‘all’ the information is in the poem, then some of the information should assist in helping with the clue’s deciphering. And, should the clues only be withing 3 stanzas [2 3 4] that leaves threes stanzas with a lot of “info” to brew over… regardless of what we like to call that “information”

            I’ll say: I do think that all of the information needed to find the chest is in the poem, in the form of clues. I believe there is help for finding the starting point, in the form of a hint. The hint is provided for all of us in the first Stanza. This is what gets us started at the right location. I also believe that once you’ve got that first clue nailed down, your off and running. I also like to think that the other 8 clues won’t be too terribly hard to find, assuming a searcher has found the correct starting place, with the hint from the hint. I think the later clues will fall into place. Also, I’ve never personally stated that I only use Stanzas 2, 3, and 4 for my set of clues. My list of clues also include Stanza 6. And I am still on the fence on Stanza 5. I don’t personally discount any of the poem. And I hope that I didn’t lead anyone to believe that I did.

            Thanks again for your thoughts.

            All IMO.


        • Here’s another thought. If we do look at the poem as though it were a blueprint:

          First we build our foundation, then the walls, then the roof, etc. But, if I’m putting the brickwork on my chimney, I’m pretty much no longer concerned about my foundation. Unless, of course, the concrete was bad. IMO.

          That’s one reason why I’m not 100% certain that anything from Stanza 1 (or any other Stanza for that matter) should be carried forward to Stanza 6 (or any other Stanza). I’m gonna have to keep thinking about this one. IMO.

          Just another way to look things.

          All IMO.


          • Thanks Idle Dreamer,

            You said: …“There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues…. f”

            I fully agree with that quote. Forrest said: “You over simplify the clues”. He said clues. He did not say hints, he said clues. This quote makes me think that the ***clues*** are a little more complex than some/many of us might think. IMO.

            Just something to consider for fun and thanks again for the quote.

            All IMO.


          • Hi Idle Dreamer

            I took a quick look at the link that you provided above (thanks for the link again) and I also found this quote on that same page:

            Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem. ~Steve R.

            No Steve R, The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help. f.

            Again, he said clues…….clues, clues, clues. I’ll just say this. It is my belief (in my opinion) that there are not any hints to be found in the poem at all, with the exception of the one hint, that Forrest has provided to us all. That’s just how I see the poem these days. Anyways, I guess that’s why we all see the poem so differently. There are so many different ways to slice and dice this thing! But I’m thinking clues, not hints. IMO.

            Thanks again Idle and good luck to all,


          • Hi Zap,

            I asked: “Has Forrest ever said that there are any actual hints in the poem?”

            You said: He hasn’t. Might be worth someone asking him point-blank — who knows, he might even answer since I don’t think the answer either way could help anyone.

            LOL. Can’t you just hear that question going down like this:

            Dear Forrest, are there any hints is the poem? SRW.

            Dear SRW, yep, just one. You figure out the rest. f.

            Too funny. I can just hear him answering that one, just like that!

            And just so everybody is clear. The question and answer above is fake. I’ve never asked Forrest this question and Forrest has never answered this question. I’m just humoring myself.

            All IMO.


          • Hi SRW: if I was answering for Forrest, I would report that there were more hints than there are clues. 😉

          • Hi Zap,

            I guess it really does depend on how each person parses the poem. I compile clues where others see hints. So many different ways to do it!

            All IMO.


          • I think FF would answer that question something like – I’ve said before that hints will help with the clues. You have to start with Where Warm Waters Halt. Without that you have nothing.

          • Hi Aaron: new avatar picture! So, your guess is that Forrest would not answer the question asked. Perhaps so — certainly wouldn’t be the first time!

          • SRW, his answer will be:

            “I never said there are hints in the poem but I don’t want to say there isn’t, I just don’t want to give that out as a clue”

            That will drive some people to madness…

          • Oz10

            LOL…I can definitely hear him saying that. Good one!

            And yes, that would definitely send me over the edge!

      • With all of the comments about stanza 1 as having clues, I find it odd that no one has even given any real reason as to what the clues are in that stanza and what words give any reason to believe there hints in this stanza.

        From what I see in this quote: “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them.” f. I find folks are completely dismissing that there are few words in the poem that will not help only because it might be “risky” to do so. So it’s complete denial of any words that are not useful, even when F says there “are”.

        The line: “I can keep a secret where “and hint” of riches new and old.”, just because the word “hint” is in that line does not automatically mean there are hints or clues in this stanza. That line says he can keep a secret at the same time saying he’s able to hint as to the location of the treasure, “riches new and old”.

        I personally think folks are creating rabbit holes simply because wwwh can’t be figured out.

        Of course IMHO and;
        Just Say’n

        • Hi CharlieM

          You said: The line: “I can keep a secret where “and hint” of riches new and old.”, just because the word “hint” is in that line does not automatically mean there are hints or clues in this stanza. That line says he can keep a secret at the same time saying he’s able to hint as to the location of the treasure, “riches new and old”.

          For me it’s just how I read the poem. Ya gotta start somewhere. IMO.


          • For me the “and hint of riches..old.” line 4 was the prelude to the first clue BIWWWH which is line 5. Keeping it simple…

          • Hi Jeff Osborne,

            You said: For me the “and hint of riches..old.” line 4 was the prelude to the first clue BIWWWH which is line 5. Keeping it simple…

            yep. IMO.


          • “I can keep my secret where”. Not *a* secret where.

            This isn’t a substitution that creates a significant difference in the interpretation of the poem, but there are other seemingly innocuous substitutions which can ruin the meaning of a clue. All my opinion.

        • CharlieM: no one is saying stanza 1 has clues (at least I don’t think?) — we’re talking about hints. And as Seeker pointed out, a majority of poem solvers are only using stanzas 2-4 for their clues, leaving 50% of the poem unused. That’s a lot more than “a few words” that aren’t useful for finding the treasure.

          Even if the majority is wrong and there are “clues” in the five stanzas 2-6, that’s still ~15% of the poem’s words not being useful if there are indeed zero hints. 25 words is a lot more than “a few.” Logic tells me, therefore, that there MUST be hints in at least the first stanza.

          • Zap,

            You said: “That’s a lot more than “a few words” that aren’t useful for finding the treasure.” well that is your opinion of what a “few” means. I have different thoughts of what a “few” is: to me is more than two and up to what ever the amount is not defined.

        • I also would say that there are no hints in stanza 5. I truly feel FF has answered the question, “So why is it I must go and leave my trove for all to seek?” The following quotes from F in

          The Metro News on 3-8-2013 with Ross McGuinnis:

          “The race is on. And in this sort of race, there’s no silver medal for finishing second. There is, however, fun to be had, whether you find the treasure or not. And that is the whole point.”f

          “I have had so much fun over the last 70 years collecting things I wanted to give others the same opportunity,” said Mr Fenn.

          “It also was my goal to get the kids off the couch and out of the game room and into the mountains where they can smell the sunshine.” f

          “We have a problem with our youth and all of us are to blame. The hidden treasure is my way of giving families an opportunity that might bring them together with a focus and a goal.” f

          “I also wanted to give hope to every redneck out there who has a wife and 12 kids, a pick-up truck, lost his job and needs some hope.” f

          With these quotes I truly believe F has answered the question, that is the reason why I believe there are no hints or clues in the stanza. The line in the stanza ” I’ve done it tire, and now I’m weak.”, is just as it says. Nothing in the stanza that remotely shows a hint or clue. The few words that will not help in finding the TC, no risk taking at all.

          Just Say’n

          • Please remove the quotes around the first paragraph starting with, The race is on, as they were not intended.

          • CharlieM: why do you assume the hints will be in plain English? Hints can be provided in many different ways. “When you read the poem, it looks like just simple words there, but I guarantee you I worked on that thing. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.” “Drawing” not “writing”. And he felt like an architect, not a bricklayer. I’m suggesting that Forrest is telling us (not so subtly) that there is a lot more going on than just the 5th grade English of the poem.

          • Hi CharlieM

            I also don’t think there are any hints in Stanza 5. And as long as I’m not standing out in the middle of the woods and Stanza 5 isn’t telling me to “go” anywhere, I’m in good shape. My solve flows much better if there aren’t any clues to be found in Stanza 5. But I can’t personally rule them out completely yet either. But I’m hoping you’re right!

            I also think that Forrest has answered the Stanza 5 question. But I do think that his answer(s) might be a bit more personal in nature to him. More so than him wanting me to go out and have a really good time. Maybe his answer(s) include both? IMO.

            All IMO.


          • Zap,

            I go along these lines paraphrased from F, the poem is straight forward and in plain English. I’ll stand by those words and didn’t F say a couple of times to simplify, the latest was on Feb. 4 2018.

          • CharlieM

            Please let me rephrase something that I said in that last comment. I had a new thought just after posting.

            Consider this:

            Maybe the “why” he hid the treasure might lean more towards the quotes that you posted. Get the kids off the couch.
            Makes sense.

            And maybe the “where” he hid the treasure might lean more towards my “personal in nature” kinds of thoughts. It could be both.

            Just something to ponder.

            All IMO.


        • Charlie M. What you think here can be well pointed in logic. In poetry ,as a communicative style for delivery of facts and story telling; there are inherent allowances for various parameters .

          He said not all words are useful but he didn’t say ‘lines’. So, the beginning of the poem he says , ” As I have gone alone in there”.

          ” As I” ? To me, this is poetically speaking as doing the same as someone else has done.

          As Seeker has just quoted- two can keep a secret if one is dead. This poem is of FF telling a factual story wth clues and hints; not speaking about nor to a future Searcher..IMO.

          Perhaps Forrest is retelling a past story of someone,other than him and including him, and he put on their shoes to this special place- relating to himself of same? I am not saying I think there are clues or hints in the first stanza but perhaps helps with the essence of how to read th poem.

          Perhaps this is the one important possibility that will trigger a memory of something within the person that eventually solves the clues? Read the poem over and over and over. ” Do you remember?”


          • Just wondering how many agree or care to disagree that ‘in there’ is ‘no place for the meek’?

          • I disagree. “In there” is NOT a dangerous place, nor one that the meek need fear going into. It is small, and closed-in, a wee bit dark – So, take a flashlight – but no, it is not a cave. JMO – JDA

          • This sounds fun. I disagree but, I think there and where in the first stanza are referring to the same thing which becomes a key to the poem but, not like a code or cypher. Just a key.

          • JDA, I sort of think the same way for ‘meek’ . To me, in the poem , meek is not a scary place at all. A meek person is not a week, wimpy, timid-scaredy cat. It’s a place for the meek! A meek person is meaning ‘ benevolent power-the power of benevolence. It’s a beautiful powerful place in nature. His church is in the Rock Mountains. The power of nature- benevolence. IMO.

          • Cholly,

            Meek could mean a place that the norm would have difficulty to travel… so why travel it?
            No paddle up your creek may infer the same… no need to go there.
            It may be that all we need to do is know where the place is.
            The idea can also relate to NF,BTFTW… no need to walk it out… we may just need to view it.
            The question [ in this scenario / theory ] is how would the poem work by crossing all the lines? idea.

          • Alsetenash

            I’m glad you understand what meek means.

            The trouble with the blogs and their principal commenters is that the whole discussion gets shaded by a small group.

            Quite literally we think of meek as being fearful because of this.

            If you read that line to a friend that isn’t familiar with this chase that would be think of something large and grand.

            Something humbling…

          • Another good word for *meek* is *obedient*. As a self described person that challenges the edges and does not always conform to the normal expectations…this could be what Fenn implies.

  25. OK here’s my latest theory-very intuitive: the hints go from very broad to very specific. The WWWH is the continental divide to the gulf of Mexico, the canyon=Grand Canyon, then hoB=Taos Pueblos (translates to in the village of Pueblos). Just wanted to put that out there as it seems like it has some logic.

    • I have always felt if Taos had the HOB it would be the San Francisco de Asis Church, Ranchos de Taos. Robert Redford bought Eric Sloanes painting of that church from Fenn Galleries as noted in Eric’s book Eighty.

      • Beautiful building. I saw it recently after decades away and I regret all the other buildings that sprung up around it. It was much more striking
        to see when there were only a few low, inauspicious structures nearby.

  26. I have a question for everybody
    I was thinking about this yesterday when the discussion was about the olive jar & Mr. Fenn’s bio. Mr Fenn said, who ever finds Indulgence can have it and all that’s in it. So, that means we have his permission to publish it, right?
    And if so, would you as a searcher be interested in reading it?

    • Wow! I never considered that but the idea is mind blowing! How much would the unauthorized, unpublished auto biography of Mr. Forrest Fenn fetch in the open market? Boom! Nice thinking Birdie Bates! Indulgence value just went up another 6 or 7 digits.

    • I think I read somewhere that the copyright is secured. I’ll see if I can find it.

      I think it will be one of the most interesting things to read ever.

    • https://forum.hintofriches.com/forum…ers-a-question

      Forrest, A searcher (Name deleted) has stated that you emailed him that the autobiography in the chest does not come with the copyright? Can I post this on THOR with you confirming or deny this? Very interesting. K

      Not true, there is an implied copyright on everything I write.f


      So will the finder own the copyright and able to release it? K

      No, I will always retain my copyrights and my heirs will inherit them. f


    • Having done a stint as co-owner (with my wife) of a small (micro) publishing house between 2006 and 2014, I can speak with some authority on this issue. When you find the treasure, you get to keep the copy of his autobiography that is in the jar in the chest, but you don’t automatically get the right to publish it. It would be the same as if he bought a Zane Gray novel and put it in the chest; you would get to keep the book as part of the treasure, but you wouldn’t have the right to go publishing Zane Gray novels for fun and profit. In fact, you would risk getting sued over it.

      In order to publish anything written by Forrest that you find in the chest, you would either need to wait for the copyright to expire, show written proof that Forrest (or his estate) had released it to the public domain, or show written proof that you had been specifically given permission (by name) to publish. It is theoretically possible that some sort of release or transfer document is included in the jar, but Forrest has never mentioned such a thing.

      In my formerly professional opinion, Forrest’s statement that the finder can keep the treasure does not constitute adequate proof of transfer of copyright. Our little press would not have gone near such a project for fear of getting sued by the author or his estate.

      • Ray henry,
        Off topic, would you mind if I e-mail you about publishing questions I have. You can give me your e-mail or get mine though Dal… {if that’s not asking to much Dal}

        • Seeker, if you are going to publish something please find someone to edit out all of your brackets. 😉

          • Ha, I can’t find two editors who can agree on commas. Or find one who doesn’t want me to pay for their Hawaii vacation

          • Good luck, I am publishing a book soon and will probably be in the same boat. Just gotta hope that sending a guy on a Hawaiian vacation leads to more vacations for me.

          • Ken, I won’t advertise here, it has nothing to do with the chase… nor inspired by the chase. I just don’t feel it’s right to do so.
            I was just wonder if Ray could answer some questions I have.

      • Even after a copyright expires you do not have the right to publish. The minute a person writes something there is an implied copyright and they own the rights to it. A copyright really just helps with legality if someone where to claim they wrote it instead. Since this is an autobiography it would be impossible to claim that anyone other than Forrest wrote it.

        • Aaron, To your point, without getting into copyright, what would the unopened, still sealed in the olive jar autobiography be worth to someone????????? we may all be surprised about what a person would be willing to pay to keep it sealed or be the owner of the original. “it’s not about how much you pay for something but how much you can sell it”…or something like that…Just thinking out load.

        • Yes, but that copyright implicit in the creation of an original work still has a legal duration, after which the work will pass into the public domain. Heirs could exercise the right to publish (or contest publication by others) during that duration, but could not extend the duration (as far as I know).

          The finder would own and could sell the *copy* of the autobiography that’s in the chest (but not copies of that copy) with no problem – the purchaser would still be bound by the copyright of course.

          The finder would also be free to use any of the information in the autobiography. She could write and sell an article, for example, that answers, in her own words, the culinary question raised elsewhere in this thread (if that info is in the autobiography).


  27. Supposedly he promised Donnie Joe that he would not talk about the one thing they ate on their trip to look for Lewis and Clark. If that’s in there, does one publish that?

  28. Interesting. I always thought it was something else he didn’t name. Just because he mentions porcupine doesn’t mean that’s the animal he agreed not to talk about. Perhaps they shot a skunk, which might have seemed more embarrassing to them than a porcupine. Or a bald eagle, the symbol of a nation then at war.

    • Hi Linda: it’s that nowhere in the story does he mention shooting and eating porcupine that it’s pretty clear that was the animal.

        • Ha ha ha! Was that an expression back then? I’m guessing it was, in which case that would have been a setup for endless taunting.

        • Funny (especially here) that eating crow, words, dirt, hats or even shoes is essentially the same thing. 😉

          • Lugnutz: I’ve essentially memorized the book so I don’t need to re-read it. AFAIC, they shot and ate a porcupine, and it’s not a hint or clue to anything. It was just Forrest offering up a little subtle humor, that’s all. If you and others want to consider the possibility that they (also) shot an eagle or a crow, I’m fine with that.

          • Zap

            Fenn eats crow on more than one occasion. If you don’t want to consider why that might be, I’m surprised.

            I guess Meadowlark dosent have any double letters?

          • Lugnutz: “Fenn eats crow on more than one occasion.” Figuratively, or literally? If the latter, I’d actually be interested in the source of that info since I’ve not read it. (I only own three of Forrest’s books, but they seem like the most likely ones to have contained such an odd factoid.)

            But all this talk of crows, ravens and porcupines reminds me of an old quote from Forrest:

            “All of this cyberspace verbiage is conspicuous by the absence of talk about where warm waters halt.”

          • Zap my friend –

            All I am ever talking about is WWWH or where to begin.
            Begin it where warm waters halt.

            Halt what?

            Anyway Fenn eats crow in the introduction of TToTC or whatever you call it.

          • Lugnutz: maybe you’re remembering a different part of the book, or a different book. The only part of the Preface relevant to your claim is this one:

            “If it will bother you to read that I shot meadowlarks so my family could have food on the table, then please don’t read further. I did that more than once, and candor demands that I admit to being as proud of it today as my father was of me then, when I was eight.”

            The word crow never appears in TTOTC. Ravens are mentioned three times:

            Page 55: “That trip was really educational for us. We counted the antelope and ducks and chipmunks, and the many unknown furry things in the road that had been run over so flat that the ravens could hardly pick up the parts.”

            Page 61: “So I applied some mountain man wisdom to the situation. The sun comes up in the east and we thought out was south so that made it easy, except that south was over the highest mountain we’d ever seen. It didn’t help much that a bunch of arrogant ravens kept flying around yawking at us, and always out of range. They probably knew that our hunger had long ago stopped being just a theory.”

            Pg. 142: (Ode to Peggy Jean):

            Today I looked up in the sky
            And saw a raven flying by.
            He seemed so focused on his way
            So tell me now why I must stay.

            The middle instance suggests their *intent* to shoot them, but not any success in doing so.

            Magpies are mentioned once: probably the closest case of supporting your claim, but unfortunately it does the opposite:

            Pg. 60: “We spent the next day looking for the horses and finally found them down by a rivulet where the grass was tall and abundant. There were no fish around anywhere and prudence whispered that we should not shoot the two magpies we saw. Later we realized the folly of that decision.”

            The SHOULD have shot the magpies, and they later came to regret that they hadn’t.

      • Zap –

        You should list all the birds referenced in the books and SBs and see if you think they amount to much.

        Magpie, Pinyon, Cardinal, Crow. Does he mention Nutcracker? Didn’t someone connect him to Poe because or a Raven reference? Is it normal or within the boundaries of normality for so many birds to come up in reference to what is essentially one memoir of a guy who doesn’t work with birds?

        • Don’t forget chickens, scissortails and of course meadowlarks. Yes, he mentions birds a lot. But not nearly as often as he mentions the number 50. Or uses the words “stupid” or “dumb”. Each of us has our own “fingerprint” of how we express ourselves. Forrest likes to use phrases like “a big deal” and writes about age a lot. Are all the bird references a hint? Maybe. I’ve incorporated chickens into some of my solutions.

          Is there a reason you want to talk about crows/ravens/magpies/black birds? I wouldn’t think it’s because of Edgar Allen Poe, because that would inevitably lead to comparisons with The Gold Bug, and it was my understanding that you don’t believe the poem has anything to do with codes or ciphers.

          • Zap, He really does mention 50 many times. Each time I see the 50 i think about the distance between Cody and Yellowstone. But, then the thought ends with a big thud! If it means anything, i am out to lunch on this one, and a few others. Jeff

          • Hi Jeff — could be a generational thing. J. D. Salinger used 50 a lot in Catcher in the Rye (and “big deal”):

            Chapter 1: “The game with Saxon Hall was supposed to be a very big deal around Pencey.”

            Chapter 1: “I was the (redacted) manager of the fencing team. Very big deal.”

            Ch. 3: “He started off with about fifty corny jokes, just to show us what a regular guy he was. Very big deal.”

            Ch. 3: “I’ve asked you about fifty … I’ve asked you fifty times.”

            Ch. 3: “Everything was a very big deal.”

            Ch. 5: “It was supposed to be a big deal”

            Ch. 5: “… but he was about fifty times as intelligent”

            Ch. 7: “Ackley said, for about the fiftieth time.”

            Ch. 11: “her mouth sort of went in about fifty directions”

            Ch. 13: “It smelled like fifty million dead cigars.”

            and so on…

          • Birdie

            That’s the way I see it

            Zap doesn’t seem to put much weight on the birds though, and he’s a smart cookie.

            Pause for concern perhaps

    • Interesting logic. Someone starving to death and with the same opportunity to shoot and eat either a porcupine or a bald eagle, which will they choose?

        • Wait a minute, are we all talking about the same thing? A stanza is a group of lines, not a single line. I count six stanzas in this poem. I find it hard to believe anyone would think the first 16 lines (stanzas 1 through 4) are not part of the poem. JMO.

          • Linda—
            I never said stanzas 1 thru 4 are not part of the poem. I just said you start at stanza 5.

        • Linda: you may well have seized on the disconnect. Sparrow may have meant “lines” not “stanzas”. Huge difference between stanza 5 and line 5! I’m on board with there being no clues in stanza #1.

        • Sparrow,
          Would it be better to say, for example, stanza 5 6 1 connect together to understand 2 3 4?
          How the poem is directly read; is from top to bottom.. yet understanding what fenn might be relaying to kick things off, starts with the ‘question’ – line of thinking.
          IF there is a riddle within the poem [ vs. the poem as a riddle ] stanza 5 would be the ideal place to start in understanding how to read the poem… to get the gist of it all. Understand the answers to get the ball rolling, idea.

          I think I’ma pickin up what ya puttin down.

          *need to know where to start
          *need to start at the beginning
          *certainty of the location, beforehand
          *need to learn where WWH
          Then, *need to nail down the first clue

          • Seeker—-

            Yes—JDA actually presented an idea a while back that puts stanza 5 and 6 on top of the poem. I believe this is correct. I can’t explain why at the moment, but I believe it to be the case. The ENDS with stanza 4.

      • Sparrow: burden of proof/evidence/explanation is on you. Prima facie, the poem, really any poem, begins in the first stanza — by long-standing English convention. All the more important to get it right when Forrest has said the poem’s clues are both consecutive and contiguous. The latter precludes “wrap-around” ideas (e.g. 5-6-1-2-3-4). Thus, for the poem to start at stanza 5 would mean stanzas 1-4 contain no clues — in conflict with clue #1 being WWWH. Q.E.D.

        • Something that I haven’t seen mentioned but I don’t follow the forms that much. The poem is on page 132 and I think for us is extremely clever in the way he uses information. There could be a grouping of

          1 stanza,
          3 stanzas and
          2 stanzas

          which would fit a structure of introduction, body and, filler or conclusion stanzas that some people are looking at. I don’t personally buy into this approach but thought it might be interesting to some

          • astree,

            I think that is a very practical and straightforward way to approach the poem.

            I personally read the poem in a straightforward way. Mostly because Mr. Fenn has stated that he wrote it that way. So one example of what you suggested could be to consider stanza 1 as a away to narrow the search area. Otherwise, how does someone begin to search the entire Rockies. Then, Mr. Fenn has already indicated there are 9 clues that can be married to a map and if followed consecutively will take you to the TC and the 1st of those 9 clue is “begin it where warm waters halt”. Then I believe he describes how you should retrieve the TC and then why he did it and his last thought was to congratulate the searcher who earned it and legally transfer “title”. Just my thoughts.

        • Astree: 1-3-2: good catch. If it was intentional (and I think there’s a decent chance it was), it isn’t the only case where page numbers have potential Chase-relevance.

    • The poem starts with the first word in the first line of the first stanza. The first clue according to Mr. Forrest Fenn is “Begin it where warm waters halt”

        • Brian, IMO WWWH is the first geographical clue you can place on a map. Solve that one and the next 8 and you have Indulgence.

          To answer your question, I first starting looking for hints in TTOTC to help me with the first clue and the other 8 clues in the poem. I have it on good authority that I should do that but, I don’t have the TC LOL. Good luck on your search. J.O.

    • Yes, somewhat humorously and indirectly. 😉 He reported what it tasted like w/o explaining the relevance — he didn’t “admit” they killed and ate one. Somewhat similar to the “Movies lie to you.” I strongly suspect what he’s hinting at, but the story doesn’t provide the answer.

      • Linda: that’s fine. The book leaves plenty of room for interpretation. I guess I would ask why Forrest would say what porcupine meat tastes like when he never mentioned he and Donnie ever shooting one?

        • He didn’t describe much else in the way of victuals, either, except for too few candy bars and two very lucky magpies whose descendants are probably still thriving somewhere in the forest. ☺

        • True dat. And non-existent “Babe Ruth” candy bars at that, i.e. they had nothing at all to eat. Hello 85%.

          • Well, no Babe Ruth candy bars, but if he meant Baby Ruth, out since 1921, I think that would make it 87.5% if you figure he got 7 out of 8 letters correct. Gadzooks, the tangents I’ve stretched!

  29. sometime back ff put out a picture of a rock and if I remember right he called it an alien cause it was from outer space – in my salve there is a land formation of an alien on its side where you only see one large eye- and imo that is where the tc is – and only be cause of the first stanza – as I ( eye ) have gone alone in there – imo its saying look for the large eye the word it – take it you have the creek on the left side the highway on the right and the I (eye) is for the eye for home of brown – oh and at the bottom of it is wwwh it is a map imo

          • ken its been a long time I just didn’t remember who wrote the story but ether way it fit in with my salve – that’s when I noticed the alien with it large eye where I chose where the chest would be and it fit with- as I have gone alone in there- thanks Ken

          • Ken its been a long time ago when I read the story – but any way it fit with my salve that’s when I noticed the alien where I picked where the tc is it is crazy how that happened but it works for me any ways thanks Ken for your reply and to Arglilite for posting the story

      • Thanks for the answer. Thinking about rock and things that came from Mars reminded me of this.

        with apologies to Jimi Hendrix

        Manic obsession is touching my soul
        I know what I want but I just don’t know
        How to, go about getting it
        Solving, sweet solving
        Drops from my fingers, fingers
        Manic obsession is catching my soul

      • Meteorite hunting *is* treasure hunting! And it’s certainly a lot easier to be successful at that than finding a 10″ x 10″ x 5″ bronze box secreted somewhere in the Rockies. 😉

  30. Ha ha — I never noticed that. It’s certainly in the right state for it. If you’ve lived in New Mexico, you know what I mean.

  31. The last time I drove through Roswell, and admittedly it was a long time ago, there were four — count ’em, four! — alien museums. Apparently, sometime during the 1990s, it had become such a good moneymaker that one was no longer enough. It seems pretty harmless and funny until you realize that some people are greatly disturbed by it and suffer because they fear being abducted.

    I recently had three students tell me they knew people who thought the world was flat, that all the images from space were fake and the government was hiding the truth. It’s disgusting.

    Now, alien rocks from space — those are cool!

    • My late wife grew up in Roswell. She was every bit as odd as that would suggest, and I loved her dearly for it. She used to like to joke that her father was born the day of the crash (not the same year, but she didn’t say that part). Then she would imply that she *might* be part alien herself, and that her glitter makeup was really just her “real” skin showing through her disguise. She was a real imp sometimes.

      Gawds, I miss her. 🙂

      • Jeez! Profoundly ignorant. Very sad that such a person is in such a position of responsibility but even sadder that his constituents repeatedly return him to that position. Someone once said “we get the govt we deserve”. Truth. Term limits better than drug test results to cull these fools. I am not aware of a drug test to detect stupidity. Unfortunately, we’ll see neither as those in power will protect themselves.

  32. Again…it may be redundant, but rehashing Fenn’s comment to Dal….Don’t mess with my poem…might be worth the effort.

  33. Seeker

    I’m nearly 50 years old and I don’t really like those skinny threads.

    I agree that we do not need to consider or dwell on man made objects, even of size, in the landscape. I think our landmarks will be natural.

    Now the names of the landmarks are to be considered. That’s my opinion.

  34. Greetings my fellow searchers, friends and family!
    Because of the fundraiser, Bill and I were able to put in an offer (hmmm…click…idea…put in also means submit! Duh!)
    On a fixer in New Mexico!!!
    Without your help this would not be possible! We are eternally grateful!

    • I have a lease on an inexpensive Casita in santa Fe I’m not using if you guys are looking for something temporary. Let me know.

    • Southern California wishes you well Jdiggins. So, who is going to help with the fixin’? Hope everything works for you and your family.

    • New Mexico ??? Well jdiggins, I have to admit that I was blindsided by that one…lol
      I’m so glad you can look forward now…. don’t worry about the “fixer part”, I’m sure Bill can handle that…
      Enjoy the little things on your journey my friend… until next time… see ya

    • JDiggins – That’s great news! I personally think Colorado is the best state of them all, but New Mexico has much to offer also, in addition to Mr. Fenn’s fine presence. For one, my late wife grew up in Roswell. She *might* have been part alien (space variety), but she never gave me a direct answer about that. I think she was emulating Forrest by telling me the truth, but not ALL of the truth. LOL

      Anyway, glad to hear things are coming together for you.

    • Jdiggins-

      Congratulations. Billy’s other daughter (deputy Katie’s sister) and her family have also purchased a “fixer” in Santa Fe. Maybe after the dust settles and Billy’s knee heals, we could have a search party together. That would be fun!

      Best regards

      1F Billy

  35. Sounds great! Wish dal kept the thread on fundraiser going. Would of loved to hear more updates etc. I would of Loved to hear more in detail about gathering and all. Cowlazers won the treasure box! His kids just loved it! He picked it up a day later at the book store! Sure was fun to watch live! Was hoping to win something, dang!
    Best wishes in all you do! Regards,
    Lou Lee, chased by bears in jellystone park and lived to tell!

    • Lou Lee, that box was so Cool! Thank you so much! It was great watching Mike’s kids dig in so excited! 🙂

  36. I just saw something interesting. Not sure if it is know. Pertaining to the line.
    If you are brave and in the wood. The bronze at buffalo bill museum , The Scout or
    guy on horse was done by Gertrude Vanderbilt Whitney. She had museum in
    Manhattan. A nurse in WW1 she made a few bronzes about that war. Have not
    been displayed since her death in 1942. What caught my eye in a march palm beach
    magazine was one called ( inwood) it is two solders trying to help an injured comrade.
    Not in the wood just inwood. its a big possibility not sure how to figure it out.
    I wonder if there is a bronze sculpture in this poem solve. or what the meaning is.
    It could be helpful for someone…

    • After some research. It is just memorial for Washington heights and inwood
      soldiers. Inwood is in Manhattan. Owell.

    • Sounds like it was named after the Inwood section of Manhattan. There is a bronze box referred to in the poem that was once sculptured.

    • I believe if i remember right a bronze sculpture is cold to the touch but; Sir Forrest Fenn’ has said the t.c is not under a man made object. good day to you all

      • It threw me for a loop. Some high society place in Palm Beach Fla.
        Was going to display a few of her bronzes. They showed two. have
        not been displayed since 1942.
        The originals are only like 7 inch’s tall. One called inwood the war one.
        There is a life size one in a park in Manhattan. The other was
        some old man in almost Indiana jones getup walking with a cane.
        It said Joe can’t remember last name was the model for it.
        I just thought is it possible. I think she lived in Manhattan.

        • Sorry the writer had some bad information in it. The name is really Washington heights and inwood a bronze of hers.
          But Gertrued Vanderbilt Whitney did not like Cody and purchased 40 acres maybe near Cedar Mountain. She took large boulders from Shoshone canyon for the base
          of the buffalo bill bronze. some place near Cody she had thought was really beautiful she bought 40 acres. I think between Spirit mountain cave and cedar mountain. I think she
          wanted the museum to locate there. In the area of buffalo
          bill reservoir. Cedar mountain sounds like a better in the wood.
          O well back to my rabbit holes. I am never going to figure this
          poem out. I guess I am my own Entertainment. I guess I should do research before I post. Sorry Mark…

  37. Does anyone have any thoughts on the comment he made saying “physics tells me the treasure is wet?” I can’t find where exactly I saw it but thought it was an interesting way to put it.

  38. Where did Forrest Fenn say that the nine clues were contiguous? I am only aware of him stating that the clues must be taken in order.

  39. Forrest, did you have nine clues before you wrote the poem? Or, did nine clues appear after the poem?

    “They’re contiguous. I knew where I wanted to hide the treasure chest, so it was easy for me to put one foot down and then step on it to get to the next foot. So that’s what I did. But I changed it over – I don’t know how many times. ” f.

    http://tarryscant.com is your friend!


  40. Linda, he said it on the Moby Dickens video just after he talks about the Popo Aggie( sp?) River.

    • Alsetenash

      Listen to the video.
      Forrest says Little Poppo Agie river. That’s a different river from the Popo Agie.

      • Lugnutz. Thanks. Inconsequential to the question , other than your fact point :). Does the Little -Poppo Aggie River mean something important/significance to you?

        • Alsetenash

          No not really.

          I vividly recall Toby getting the name wrong in his video sending I don’t know how many people to the Sinks.

          • Lugnutz. Ya, I do recall watching Toby thinking he was right in name and FF may be had said it wrong in naming. Did people really take the little Poppo Agi comment as a hint or something ? Never entered my senses as such and still doesn’t- gurgle gurgle 🙂 IMO.

          • Definitely, searchers went out to the Sinks after that video.

            There is a compelling case that says Fenn couldn’t fly much further than Lander on a tank of gas.

          • Hi Lugnutz,

            I’ve seen the tank of gas thing mentioned before but I didn’t understand it. Can’t a small aircraft be re-fueled for a longer journey?

          • Arg –

            Sure you can refuel and take off. It is interesting that Lander is within distance AND Forrest says he spent the best afternoon of his life looking for arrowheads out there along the Little Popo Agie.

          • NO NO NO – depends on which plane you’re talking about, but the one pictured in Tea w Olga has a range of 1500 nautical miles…much farther than Lander from SFe…just sayin.

      • Yes I searched Sinks and area. I went there mostly because I wanted to search another area near there. What was interesting was that Lander was first called “Fort Brown”. Saw some Blazes. There was FF carved into a tree on the trail to falls. Looked older.
        Loved the area!
        You can see my write up and photo in the Shadow contest.
        The day I was there I saw a few other people who I’m sure where searchers.
        It was Nov. And a little chilly. But not bad. There is also warm water halting too. Gosh it was a few years ago. I want to visit that area again.

  41. You guys go ahead a knock yourselves out, but I’ve come to the conclusion that trying to find the treasure using the poem and books is like trying to guess someone’s password given the clue that there’s at least one number and one color. Don’t get discouraged! Hints like there’s at least one W in it will really narrow it down!

  42. Question-

    So my solve is pretty specific, (best I have had and with fairly valiadting information) puts me within a square of 200 feet , maybe 100 feet .
    In you all’s opinion , is that a plausible solve, or should it be more of a point target.

    • Chris – for me it is an iterative process. Put BotG with your 200/100′ solve. Fine tune it and try again – JMO – JDA

    • Hi Chris C.: a quote from Forrest that might give you some pause:

      MW Periodic Words (6/2/2017): “Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a ‘correct solve’ unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. Otherwise you have a ‘general solve.’ What do you think? f”

      • Thanks, that’s good stuff, based on the measuring app on Google Maps, my solve would be about 60-ft from a trail. Several steps …? I guess its a matter of perspective… but its an amazing view!

    • Chris ~’So my solve is pretty specific,… is that a plausible solve…’

      LOL almost all have very ‘specific’ solves. But it doesn’t matter until tested.
      I don’t know how anyone can answer your question.

      We have had folks here that just knew they were within 100 ft, even as close as 12 ft, knew the chest was in a tree, found the location of the blaze but someone moved it, and others 100% certain of their solve being correct, only to come back with lame excuses…

      I’m curious to why you would think 100 ft would be good enough?
      I assume that you mean the chest is a 100′ from the blaze or the blaze is within a 100′ of your last clue -?- How do you come up with to that distance of a 100′ ? Do you even have a representation of the blaze beforehand?

      • Fundamentally, the clues have lead me to a specific land feature on a specific trail , the land feature is only or allows only 100 feet or so at most or searchable area…

  43. The 5 phases of a Fenn treasure hunter:
    1) Novice – or “brown trout” phase. Thinks they solved the poem on their first try and can’t believe that nobody believes them. Hasn’t bought TToTC yet.
    2) Intermediate – or “question” phase. Asks alot of questions that can be answered easily with a Google search. Starts to form “deeper” opinions. May have had 2 or 3 failed searches.
    3) Expert – or the “Why can’t you see that I’m right?” phase. Convinced they know it all and likes to correct those who don’t. Owns all the books and usually has had 10 or more failed searches.
    4) Veteran – or the “clinging to hope” phase. Has been in the Chase for years but not ready to give up. Checks the blogs occasionally to see if the chest has been found. Stopped counting failed searches long ago.
    5) Disgruntled – or “somebody please listen to me!” phase. Has mentally given up but won’t admit it. Clings to one idea they are sure is right and wants somebody to agree with them. Some announce they are quitting the Chase and others just fade away. (Also known as the Ya-sha-wa or dodo phase) 😉

    • And which phase are you in randawg? 🙂 -Some day, there may be a 4A phase – “I Found IT – 🙂 JDA

        • I am apparently a phase 3 in progress as I own all the books (only 1 is signed and I still haven’t managed to meet Forrest in person)(including a good selection of Eric Sloane books, Flywater, Journey of a Trapper, Catcher in the Rye, Jenny’s amazing book, and books by Robert Redford), have had 10+ BOTG. I don’t correct people and I never believe I will know it all. I simply enjoy spending time with my family and the thrill of the chase.

    • I am disgruntled I guess. But seriously, I’ve never really thought I knew where the Treasure was. I mean, I always felt it was in Wyoming, until just recently when I began focusing on SW Montana.
      Let’s put it this way. I am currently involved in the “Scarab” hunt on Mysterious Writings. The prize is $250.00, and Jenny has given about 8 hints or clues. I still can’t solve the thing.

      Now, if I can’t solve a $250.00 search with 8 clues given what makes me think I can solve a poem worth 2:Million dollars??

      I know—sounds pretty pessimistic doesn’t it? Or is realistic the word I should be using? lol. I’m disgruntled but I can’t let go. I’m like the dude who believes he will one day break the world record for the mile even though old women pass him by while he’s jogging.

      Oh well.

      • Sparrow

        since when have you ever been a ‘pessimist’?! ..nope, i’m just not buying it

        ..oh wait, you haven’t solved Jenny’s $250 puzzle yet? – tsk tsk 🙁

      • Sparrow – please stop sounding so darn pessimistic! ..i mean, randawg is right for once re: ‘all about confidence’..

        oh wait.. you let an old lady out-jog you?!

        [ ..tsk tsk – shakes head ]

        • My search is going as everyone else’s.
          Have a solve or few but I feel I’m missing something.
          Process of elimination is the only way I know how to solve.

          It doesn’t matter what you think it is.
          It only matters what it’s not.

    • Don’t forget the one and done, that’s me…just don’t want to be left out ha! Making my one and only BOTG trip soon and then retiring..

      • Well good luck on your “One and Done”. Forrest has said that it will not be solved by a week-end or spring break searcher – so hope you have a nice vacation – Just sayin’ – JDA

        • Thanks JDA, it’s one weekend but months of research. Only takes one correct solution and maybe two trips back to the car. Good luck to you as well. J.O.

          • Oh, and yes, absolutely bringing a fly rod. No way I’m traveling to that location and not casting a fly. Should be a great adventure, so long as the weather cooperates.

          • Yes, don’t get your hopes up. I myself had a perfect solve. The clues could not have been any better. And guess what? It wasn’t there

          • Hi Brian,

            We are 99.999% sure the treasure will not be there. Too many smart people have tried to find the chest for so many years.

            For us it’s the thrill of the search hence the packing of the fly rod.

            The amount of time and research to build just one solution is not something I can continue in the future.

            So we plan to enjoy this family treasure hunt and to honor our journey and our work, we plan to leave something just in case another searcher happens upon the same spot.

            Should be a great trip. Thanks and all the best of luck to you. Jeff

          • Jeff: that is some healthy skepticism, and you definitely have the right attitude: enjoying the experience with your family and simultaneously making it a dual-purpose trip! Have a great time!

        • Hi JDA: I agree with you that it’s (unfortunately) pretty unlikely for a searcher to be successful on his/her first trip out. The 3D world looks a lot different in person than it does on a map or Google Earth, so the instructions must be precise. (Example: Dal’s instructions for finding the Little Cache).

          As for Forrest’s frequent mention of the hopelessness of finding the treasure chest on “Spring Break” or a Sunday afternoon picnic, I have a different theory. Per the long-winded post of that theory for the precise date that Forrest hid the treasure, both of Forrest’s failure examples match. I claimed (and still do) that he hid it on Father’s Day afternoon (Sunday) in 2010 — the last day of Spring. Get it? Spring break.

          • Ya ‘t aHey-O, pdenver –

            The QA you linked to was ff’s initial response to several outdoor deaths in New Mexico early that spring/summer; one river- (and chase-) related, the other two sun/heat (and non-chase related, though significant to *anyone* hiking in the heat).

            I’m guessing that you’re asking about his desert comment and Chaco Canyon. I wasn’t suggesting Chaco as a search location – in fact I’d be appalled to see searchers in search-mode stomping around *any* ancestral pueblo archaeological sites (whether desert or not – but I would also agree that Chaco is “in the desert” as opposed to “in the mountains”).

            The link I posted (and the date of the event) were in response to Zap’s known interest in the Wetherill/Wetherell spelling in TotC (the “Wetherell” gravestone is picture #9 in the link I posted), and the interest Zap has shown in June 2010 as ff’s hiding time.

            I’ve been to Chaco several times, as well as most of the other sites in the Four Corners vicinity, but in pursuit of my own longstanding interest in southwest archaeology. It’s a remarkable Center Place, and also a place where many lines cross. But it’s *not* a playground for treasure-chest-seekers.


  44. Just checking in for the first time. I live in Gardiner Montana and have been working on a few different solves in my area. Some inside the park and some outside the park. In Forrest’s last few MW “Forrest answers a question”, Forrest mentioned “Tee Pee Smoke” and now I see some relationship with Minor(Miner?). On the back side of Miner there’s a creek called “Tee Pee Creek”? I’m just curious as to what some might think as this as an area of interest? I see some of that area is NFS and some is held in a living trust. If I remember correctly Forrest mentioned something about “you trust me and I trust you”? Maybe it’s on land in which there is a “trust” involved? I’d love to hear your ideas on this! Thanks.

    • MTM –

      I have work on solves in your area for years. There are different types of solves for the poem and the search.

      You probably have read that Gardiner is a focus because of a line from the book The Thrill of the Chase. You may also know that many people start there clues at Madison Junction. When they refer to it they don’t actually mean the campsite of that name they mean the point where the Madison River begins. That point is not to far from you. Lots of folks like Mammoth Hot Springs for a place where warm waters halt.

      Been lots of talk about Devil’s Slide over the years. I have investigated Bunson Peak and Pinyon Terrrace.

      Forrest has mentioned Tee Pee on several occasions over the years. Most notably, there is a story about piloting his Piper Mirage at 500 feet off the ground. He would fly around looking for sites to investigate. He specifically mentions seeing the old Tee Pee rings on the ground below.

      Wish I lived in Gardiner, how cool!

    • “Teepee Creek and Fenn are 6 hours 40 minutes far apart, if you drive non-stop.”

      Ahh, if only Canada was still in play . . . 😉


  45. MTMike IMO if you have to ask permission to hunt on the land it is not the right place to hunt. FF has respect for personal property, and I think a trust would be considered personal property. Stick to public access land city, state and national. Stay safe and good luck. again just my opinion.

  46. I my thoughts are that unless the T C. Is in a cloistered space of some kind, after all these years searching with a metal detector is almost mandatory.
    Detritus is slowly but surely going to build up.

  47. What the last line of the poem states: “I give you title to the gold” so what is a “title” defined by, you ask? Borders define a title, and page 9 describes “Borders Books” and then “Border Line Biddies” as the border between states, etc, so what if it was raining and sprinkling on that day, we ask? There are not a lot of Hints in the book, but that might be one big one, another couple of Big Hints are definitely in the poem, not clues but hints to help us understand the “borders” of his secret where.

    A border or title in a Visio drawing is just like a background page. You see the border or title when you view the drawing, but you edit it separately from the foreground diagram. Finally we are getting to the end of the poem. Tom Terrific AKA; Terrifically Enthusiastic to save the Rockies, TT

    • Also, in TToTC the story about running away and the story about shopping in Borders also both feature “biddies” who get in the way of Forrest leaving, but they aren’t actually able to stop him. In the first story, they say he cannot cross the street, but he says he can cross it any old time he wants and they are dumb to say otherwise. In the second story, they dilly-dally at the impulse rack at the checkout, but eventually move along after slowing him down a bit.

      That suggests some sort of boundary that is watched, where someone might *try* to stop you, but you have the right to cross. That suggests either the boundary of some sort of public lands where there is a manned access point, or that you have to cross some private land through which there is a public access easement (not an uncommon occurance for flyfishermen or hunters in some areas). As long as you know your rights regarding where you can and cannot go, there is no actual trespassing involved, but if someone happens to be looking your way as you pass, you might be inconvenienced for a while before things get sorted. I don’t think the chest would be *on* private land, but some sort of crossing like that might be involved in the journey.

      Just my thoughts.

  48. 4 states, 16 borders, where do the geographical borders start in this Architects Drawing? In the background? Does that happen before the drawing, or after it? We create from thought and imagination, expressing it through our knowledge so that others may see it and understand what it should look like, is someone doing that now, and Forrest knows it?

    The solve is illusive, but it must be defined geographically and borders is a good place to start.


    • To blur the line a bit further, FF says the treasure is located somewhere on the map in his book TFTW, BUT… he never said all 9 clues are on that map.

      • Kbrock, It is possible that some of the 9 clues are off the map, but that forces the conclusion that since each clue moves you closer, it must be one or some of the first few, if and a big IF it starts off the Map. Way back in 2012 my very first solve was 32 degrees latitude, the border of Texas, New Mexico and Old Mexico, at the Rio Grande River, as in Canyon Down statement, you are correct, Forrest has never insisted that all clues are in the 4 States.

        If you allow for a border or title in a drawing it would be as another layer of the poem, as I frequently thought was/is a possibility, just like a background page, the invisible image that might only be seen after WWWH was solved.

        It’s never linear thinking in our process of solving that creates new ideas, it is always imagination, fused with knowlege.

        I learned to spell while reading a bell jar and some wise old Sage showed me a new way to see things…..now where is that ledge with a marvel gaze?


  49. My great delimma, is there some way to determine from the poem or TTOTC either
    a) what the WWH is
    b) or, where it is.
    I can’t determine it with any confidence, and I am too ‘covered up’ for endless trial-and-error tracking on fuzzy GE.

    Hmmm, curious use of the word ‘covered-up’… used up? tired? …. pg 11.

    • OS2;

      For me, the answer as to where it is lies in the words “In the wood”
      As I have said multiple times, there is an obscure definition of these words that will lead you to a geographical location in Wyoming. Once there, it is east to spot my wwwh. JMO – JDA

      • We all know you have a secret word for ‘in the wood’….. I’m still at WWH.

        I was presenting an example to ponder: using ‘tired & weak’ in the context given by FF in IMP LIT . Is it applicable in the poem? Does tired mean ‘covered up’? A re-affirmation of ‘leave my trove’? —— oh well.

      • A definition that is not so obscure (and I believe has been posted here before) would be familiar to anyone who plays darts. “In the wood” = a bullseye. Worth 50 points — a possible explanation for all those 50s in his books and Scrapbooks.

        • I never wood have thought of that! Thanks Zap. I’m running right out to Target and get me a set of darts.

        • Zap…then there is Alexander Hamilton; he got bulls-eyed in real life, again in a shooting contest, AND, at one time he was on the $50 bill. Then there is George Hamilton, Juan Hamilton…all kinds of Hamilton connections.. probably a few more but I don’t have my notes in front of me.

          • Hi Sandy: thanks for that factoid about Hamilton once being on the $50 bill — that was new to me. Do you think that’s what Forrest expected us to discover when he erroneously (but no doubt deliberately) wrote that Hamilton was on the $100 bill instead of Franklin?

          • Well, Zap….I have no idea re: what Forrest intended for us to discover with his many aberrations; the Hamilton bill being one of them. I wish I did!

            I think we may have talked about this before, but Roman Numeral L = 50. We are both interested in the preponderance of double LL’s. Roman numeral L + Roman numeral L = C. (Roman numeral 100 = C). Rabbit Hole alert – LLC!!! That;s too deep even for me, but thought it was amusing.

            I think many people have noted the (IMO) “sharpied” in Ls on the girls jerseys page 18 – 19 TTOTC. I count 32 visible L’s; partial and full. I count 55 girls total, both numbers debatable (like tying on a #26- ouch) Now we have double nickles, or roman numeral LV.

            I like the double LL; and sometimes I think it points to Yellowstone. Even though I was dead set against Yellowstone for years. Just not sure about anything, which is the way he wants it!

            Sorry Lug – I know you hate this stuff. But I think you are just sensitive about 50! It isn’t so bad once you get used to it. Enjoyed your answers over on MW…nice.

          • Hi Sandy: it’s certainly been my view that 50 is a hint for L (or vice versa). Forrest seemed to bolster that theory in the “Catsup” Q&A on MW via the made up name Romnella (anagram Roman Ell).

          • Sandy and Zap –

            I don’t hate this stuff. it’s fascinating.
            I hate that no one EVER says what any of it means.
            I will gladly concede that 50 comes up a number of times.

            But what does it mean. How does it relate to a geographic location for a clue? Before that, which clue does 50 relate to?

            Allow me to add my thought on Hamilton and illustrate the difference between myself and Zap. The error in assigning Hamilton to the 50 dollar bill indicates to me that the association is NOT important. (Misdirection but not mis-information)

            Thanks like ELL meaning L meaning 50 seems like possibly something. Evidence that Fenn is doing this might come in the form of a V representing 5. Then you would have in 2 cases Fenn referencing Roman numerals to indicate a letter of the alphabet.

            I think I’m within 6 weeks of the date when Zap will reveal all to me. Like I always tell Dal before someone emails me.

            I hope this one’s not crazy.

          • Lugnutz: when you say “reveal all” I hope you haven’t been assuming I’ll tell you my entire solution. That was never offered. What was promised was this: “before the year is out, I’ll give you the answer to the Henri painting, Amelia’s Electra, the ABC ducks, and perhaps another dozen examples.” I still think you’d derive greater satisfaction from figuring out the keyword yourself and then uncovering its connection to all these disparate “hints” that seem to have nothing in common.

        • Ok so Zap, all the 50s are a reference to bullseye and in the wood means bullseye.

          So what does that mean for a location or a solve if the clue?

          The solve is bullseye?
          Now what?

          • Lug: not a pronouncement. Merely one idea to explain some oddities. I don’t personally subscribe to it, I merely toss the dart out there for others to ponder.

          • The mention of bull’s eye sent me back looking at P65 and I notice there is a hat floating above someone’s head. Don’t know if that’s just a coincidence or something to file away for later.

            P.S. Lugnutz – I saw you 6 questions over at Jenny’s site. Way to go, that was cool. JDA’s too!

        • Zap – check this out. From wikipedia. How did I miss this? It’s all about the $2 bill…..
          In March 1862, the first $2 bill was issued as a Legal Tender Note (United States Note) with a portrait of Alexander Hamilton; the portrait of Hamilton used was a profile view and is not the same portrait used currently for the $10 bill.

          If I were guessing, this is what FF wants us to “see”.

      • JDA,

        You must have taken a bite out of the apple as well.

        I just think I’m lost in tying a string ball together of the various parts. You ever run a string line from point to point on a ‘good map’?


        • No, but I have used a ball of string to measure distances on the ground. I am not very good at “Pacing off distances” and a ball of string doesn’t weigh much. I tie knots in it every 25′ and ity seems to work well – 🙂 JDA

      • Hi JDA,
        I’ve been lurking around this page a couple years and always like reading your comments. I wondered what are your thoughts on the forward of OUAW statement that Fenn wanted his biggest clue to be his car getting found at the Denver Museum of Science?

        • Since it was not written by Forrest, but by another person (Can’t remember the name at the moment – Preston wasn’t it?) I have given it little to no thought. I do NOT think that it is a clue or hint nor anything else worthy of my consideration – JMO – JDA

          • Probably so, but does that make it a clue or hint? Forrest would know that he did not write it, and that readers would have to make their own decisions as to how much weight to place on a non-Forrest statement. I choose to place little to no value on it – you are free to make your own evaluation – and Forrest knows that the choice is up to each of us – JDA

          • I concur with JDA. I don’t think Forrest would throw red herrings at us. (I think he prefers trout.) He might not tell us everything, but I believe we can rely on what he does say to be true … if we understand what he is really saying.

            But he might not object to *other* people writing things that could potentially entice us to walk out of the poem, as long as they aren’t doing so with ill intent. If asked about it, Forrest can honestly say, “I’m not the one who wrote that.” Which, of course, would not reveal to us if it was a correct hint or not.

            The museum comment is always there in the back of my mind as a *potential* hint, but I tend to stick with the poem, the memoirs, and direct quotes of Mr. Fenn. That’s where the quality information is to be found.

            I’ve also found The Catcher in The Rye somewhat helpful in an indirect way, but I would not have considered it if Forrest hadn’t mentioned it in TToTC in Important Literature. As I recall, he described it as basically being his life as lived by someone else. (Paraphrasing him here.)

            And Journal Of a Trapper is a useful tutorial on the geography of the Yellowstone region, for those who are searching there.

        • Kbrock: Doug Preston is not a completely disinterested party. I regard any ponderings on his part to be partially inspired by his “privileged” access to Forrest, but as such not equivalent to “word of mouth” from our puzzlemaker. If there is anyone that Forrest would want to remain fooled or in the dark, it would be his closest friends and colleagues.

          The Denver Museum of Science location is, in my opinion, likely useless as far as figuring out where Forrest hid the treasure. And worst case, that location could be misleading.

          • Thanks! I’m still up in the air about it myself. What intrigued me about it when I researched it was that the Denver museum was made famous because of the display of artifacts found at a dig just outside Folsom NM.

    • * ** ** ” . . . is there some way to determine from the poem or TTOTC either
      a) what the WWH is
      b) or, where it is.”? ** ** **

      . . . in theory, but not likely in practice.

    • OS2.
      fenn warns us of; certainty of the location beforehand.
      Tells us; to nail down WWH or stay home.

      Sure, they are in the same place, but are they one in the same?

      • Same as what?

        Certainty = confidence = aplomb = stamding tall (spinning in place if you are a ballerina) = verticle (plumb) = upright = strong = bold…. should I stop yet?

    • OS2…coincidently I was reading that page(11) yesterday and thought about Fenn’s use of *covered up* to describe an older person. That’s about as far as I got with it at the time. It is an odd phrase worth pondering…I did not relate it to *tired* from the poem. What got me to that particular page was from another angle completely. I’m changing channels right now…

        • Although these two comments do not pertain to how I got to page 11 yesterday, they are in my spotlight at the moment.
          “The person who finds my treasure will be the one who solved the clues in my poem and *walked* to it. No one will happen on it. My hope is that whoever deserves it through their *effort* will be the finder.”
          ….”No one has any secret information that will take them to the hiding place. It’s in the poem for all to see. f”

          • Hi ken there is a lot of info in that last sentence you just posted if you know where to look.key word (see)

      • “Covered Wagon” trail?…covered up now by the sands of time and lots of tumbleweeds. Still visible in many areas however.

        • We’ll see if this posts…

          “…effort will be worth the cold”. Now what does that mean?

          When you come across said “cold” how is it quantified? What do you do with that piece of information?

          Cold because WWWH? Cold because it’s frigid? Cold because of a broken friendship?
          Or because it’s been written?

          There is no quantifiable measure for ‘cold’ rather it’s the measure of lack of heat/thermal energy. Maybe things need to be looked at from a perspective of “what are we lacking?” Rather than what do we have?

          Just random musings for the day.

  50. Ok, for those that love to compare Fenn and Salinger…..
    Here is an interesting Salinger quote.
    “It’s funny. All you have to do is say something nobody understands and they’ll do practically anything you want them to do.”

    • CC: Oh, you want a Salinger comparison? I’ll share:

      Chapter 2: “For instance, one Sunday when some other guys and I were over there for hot chocolate, he showed us this old beat-up Navajo blanket that he and Mrs. Spencer’d bought off some Indian in Yellowstone Park.”

      • Hi again, CC. “Catcher” is full of ’em:

        Chapter 4: “I’ll be up the creek if I don’t get the (xxx) thing in by Monday” and “Just don’t do it too good, is all,” he said. “That sonuva(xx) Hartzell thinks you’re a hot-shot in English, and he knows you’re my roommate. So I mean don’t stick all the commas and stuff in the right place. That’s something else that gives me a royal pain. I mean if you’re good at writing compositions and somebody starts talking about commas. Stradlater was always doing that. He wanted you to think that the only reason he was lousy at writing compositions was because he stuck all the commas in the wrong place.”

        • Ok, so at what time period of the Chase did Mr. Fenn start making comments about commas?
          It seems like at this time we would start looking even more at The Catcher in the Rye….

          • I’m not sure I CAN look at Catcher any closer. I mean, I even tried to use the Salinger Ranch in Sunlight Basin as part of a solve once upon a while….

          • Watch “Rebel In the Rye” for great insight into Salinger. The obsessions/rabbit holes go deep on this journey.

        • Hi CC — at least as early as November 2013 at the Moby Dickens Bookshop. 56 minutes 30 seconds into the video: “So many writers, I don’t want to be critical, but I know so many writers that are so much better than I am. They… Everything is researched perfectly. Everything is correct. The commas are in the right spot, and you go right down the center line. And I told this writer today she should be writing Encyclopedia Britannicas. It’s no fun to read. Everything’s there, but it’s no fun. I said – when are you gonna walk out to the… How do you know where the edge is if you don’t go out there and look? I never wanted to go down the center line. I wanted to bounce off the curbs and I think I’ve done that.”

          • Ok, Fall of 2013.
            I still have not ever had a reason to believe, there is a connection between this book and The Chase.
            Lots of things in common!!
            But not really helpful.
            Very entertaining though!

          • On Hemingway and commas:


            Part of that thread also mentions Cormac McCarthy, about whom ff once relayed the (possibly apocryphal or perhaps misattributed) anecdote that he would go back over his work and remove all the commas.

            ** ** ** “If you could write as beautifully as Hemingway, you’d get published today, commas or no. No commas is a stylistic choice that Hemingway made intentionally, just like [Cormac] McCarthy doesn’t use quotation marks, or semi colons.” – jrector ** ** **


    The fellow/gal with the
    pickup/bedroll. Has the poem, maps, knows geigraphy &
    the edicts (4 states, elevations, structure etc)
    but no books.

    Knows nothing/little about about
    anagrams, stanzas, FFs personal
    history., or mystical historical trappings…

    • Batty,
      How did the hypothetical dad get the poem in the first place?

      You can’t dismiss the fact; the book, containing the poem, was used to present the challenge… The only ‘real’ way for one to have found the poem was by discovering the book… later… the poem simply made its way to the internet, media etc.

      I think this Q&A kinda answers the idea; [regardless of what we think is missing; maps, eliminating factors, later published books etc.]
      Q~ If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?
      Thank you ~Nope

      A~ Thank you Nope. Nope. f

      I mean, even though fenn said he didn’t count clues until the poem was finished, there are 9 of them. Without the book’s intro to the poem, would we be at a lost to “follow the clues ‘precisely”-?- without knowing there are 9?
      I think, even at its basic, the book is needed to get us started and keep us on track.

    • BATTY, Mr. Fenn has state the poem alone can take you to the treasure but the book alone can not; however, the book has some hints that might help you solve the clues in the poem. He says the first clue is “BEGIN IT WHERE WARM WATERS HALT”.

      If I am remembering correctly, I had a general solution after studying the poem, google earth, and visiting blog websites. A few months ago, I purchased the book to “disprove” my general solution and in the famous words of Mr Fenn – “That day never came for me” so my twins, my brother and I headed to Yellowstone to prove me wrong . We expect to have a great time, great memories, but not likely the TC.

      So to answer your question truly, yes you might have all it takes but I do enjoy reading both TTOTC and TFTW and I especially found some hints in TTOTC that encourage me to at least go BOTG. Good luck on the chase, Jeff

    • Hi Batty…your post exemplifies the ongoing evolution of Fenn’s Chase in more ways than one. My personal experience with the Chase is a reminder to grab every advantage as they emerge. My first 2 years were bookless and peppered with diverging ideas that I can’t even clearly recall…still fun to think about. Not too long after I started frequenting Dal’s blog it became apparent that if Fenn says there are *hints* in TTOTC that help with the clues…I should probably buy it. I did, and when TFTW came on the scene, I bought it. I think every bit of info from Fenn is important. It is up to the searcher to weed through it all and find the relevance…if any. The question for me is…when the info completely ceases….Will the poem become less encumbered by outside noise and start revealing itself as Fenn intended? Or…will the never ending *think tanks* over shadow it into oblivion?

    • Batty, they should be able to find it.

      “If a person reads the poem over and over…and are able to decipher the first few clues in the poem, they can find the treasure chest. It may not be easy, but it certainly isn’t impossible. I could go right straight to it.” (Collected Works video)

  52. Well, now, wait a minute, JDA. BATTY has the poem. Haven’t several (as in, more than two but not many) of you posted that in the beginning, there was just the poem with no memoir yet?

    • Linda, the Thrill Book was produced in very short supply at first, I think a thousand in 2010, but Forrest is not an average person who let’s his work go unnoticed, so he promoted it over every method of advertising that was free and opinionated.

      Early on it was a (just) the “mountains north of Santa Fe” search area, or that’s how it came from the Oracle and the Media, soon it became possible that even Arizona, Utah, Canadian Rockies etc were in the mix, evolution and the actual immensity of the area soon made it a needle in a million haystacks kinda search, and Forrest pared it down, but the thought was driven home that it was not a local Easter Egg hunt, and it was so cleverly hidden and the poem was such a challenge, any resource, that is any statement from the Oracle was prophetic.

      When ff makes a statement over the passing years, like 66,000 rods north of Santa Fe, NM it converted into 8.25 miles, and the highway due north of Santa Fe, NM straight into the Sangre De Cristos and San Juans, both Rocky Mountains by definition, the hwy number is #285…coincidence?

      Now if this is his teasing way of showing us the borders of the search, then someone must figure out what Canasta has to do with stayin home?

      The poem is illusive and sublime, sort of like a nursery rhyme with a moral message, the problem is that it applies in so many situations and sorting without location bias is hard to do, so most people just sort this puzzle from their hunch, I admit to this method, but unlike many searchers, I am near Santa Fe and the local lingo that Fenn uses is familiar to me.

      Agreement on the place where warm water halts is so scattered that on must choose a myriad of ideas from the start. So temper that first hint with these statements from Fenn: Mar 6, 2013 – There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. ..;https://mysteriouswritings.com/advice-from-forrest-fenn-on-how-to-find-his-treasure-chest-and-solve-his-poem-top-twenty-quotes/


    • Linda;

      It possibly can be solved with only the poem – Forrest has said as much BUT there are hints that will help with the clues – So why not use the book(s) and ATF statements to aid you? They sure have helped me (I think) – JDA

      • JD –

        Please provide a reference for Fenn saying the TC can be found with the poem but without the book. Please do not post the one where he says good research tools are the poem and google earth.


        • Here is one Lug:
          “Dear Mr. Fenn,
          We are a group of avid elderly bridge players in San Diego who after reading your book hope to find your treasure. We are not into poetry as much as the memoir. We realize the clues are in the poem, but were wondering if there isn’t at least one clue in each chapter.
          Thank you for a great book
          Forrest’s succinct response:
          ALL OF THE INFORMATION YOU NEED TO FIND THE TREASURE IS IN THE POEM. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search”. f

          Forrest does say that there are hints in the book, but he clearly says that the poem is all you need. – JMO – JDA

          • JD and Seeker –

            I was asking because I was thinking it would resolve a couple of old issues including why Indie can’t get closer. She does not have the book. That’s true in another case too. Fenn gets asked if someone can solve with just the poem and he says no.

            The response to Emily seems to take this line of thinking off the table.


          • Lugz,

            IMO only, the reason little Indy or anyone else “can not get closer” is… because they/she are there [ very near ] where they need to be at.
            To be/get closer [to the chest] you ‘need to be there’.. the first two clues. Closer in this sense means; a small location.

            My point for an example would be;
            marry the ‘clues’ to ‘A’ place on a map.
            That is not to say the clues are not in their own place within The/A place, if that makes sense.
            Another example; [ lol this will send a few to the kiddie’s table] Walk several hours [twice] to you’re “solve” – I think the “solve” is in one place… not miles between clues. Which would give credence to Little Indy “can not get closer.”
            ~ More importantly [ in theory ] Don’t go where and 80 [ and at one time 87 yr old ] can’t go. LOL if ‘driving’ a canyon is involved, where can’t an 80 yr old not go-?- in regards to “following the clues”

          • Seeker –

            I have thought the same.
            Second clue puts you right on top of it.

            But I always keep an open mind.

          • Lugz,

            I’m not sure but I think the first and second clue work in conjunction. A point [precise] where you can see all the lines across, idea.
            The idea is; you can’t get closer because this might be an observational hunt rather than a follow the dots on a treasure map style hunt… so don’t leave the poem [ by stomping away from the first two clues ].

            Some don’t like the idea, but I still think the poem revolves around the first clue and the need to ‘nail’ it down [ fix, join, connect ] the other clues to it.
            Clue two might be the clues that is needed to find / be at that fixed point. Or maybe hoB… lol I haven’t made up my mind yet.

            While there might be more than three places to look at, I think there is only three places to be seen. But, [ in this theory ] you have to look at “take it in” and “put in” differently than a physical movement… “It’s not a matter of trying, It’s a matter of…” well, you know the rest.

          • Seeker –

            I think that when people leave the poem or go right by the treasure they are heading away from WWWH down some canyon. Everyone seems to have it in their head that TiiTCD can only be interpreted as go down the canyon.

            This is where everyone fails in my opinion. They are looking ahead when they should be looking aside.

        • Lugs, The closest I can find to match, would be;

          Media section ~ T&E;
          Q~ Does somebody need to read your book to find the treasure or do all the clues exist within the poem?
          A~ They don’t need to read my book but they need to read the poem. The book will help them, but they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues that are in the poem.

          It doesn’t say the ‘poem alone’ [as you asked above]… but it does sound like the book is helpful, however not needed.
          LOL although it is a bit of a left handed monkey wrench answer…

          • lugz:

            @8:18-Nobody’s gonna happen on that treasure chest. Their gonna have to figure out the clues and think and find, and go directly to it……..@10:40-you don’t have to buy the book to get the clues………@11:00-Poem will take you to the treasure chest,book by itself won’t

            Taken with Seeker’s above T&E quote–“They don’t need to read my book but they need to read the poem. “….It definitely appears that the TC can be found with the poem but without the book.

        • Here are two more Q&A’s to chew on related to the topic of discussion… upon an initial reading, they seem to contradict, but a more thorough reading, analysis, and considerations of the two might provide something otherwise.

          It is the fool and the failure who argues why something can’t be; whereas it is the smart and the successful who figure out how it can be.

          Sometimes you just need a broader view, or a different angle, is all… 🙂

          Q. If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?
          Thank you ~Nope
          A. Thank you Nope. Nope. f

          Q. Good seeing you in good health at Fennboree. I have seen some debate on the forums lately about using the book with the poem. As you have stated the poem is in the book, but we all know the poem is also on hundreds of websites. In this regard does one really need the book in order to solve the clues in the poem?
          A. No E, not really. f

          • JCM,
            Lets have some fun…

            I gonna go with the idea that there are “clues” in the book because “the poem is in the book”… and… there are hints in the book that will help with the clues, as saying; there are no “clues” other than the poem which is contained in the book, line of thinking.

            In the mountains N. of SF. can only be the RM’s in the logical sense. So what is left?
            The intro [ for lack of a better term ] just before the poem…Nine (9) clues, contained in the poem, right?
            IS that a “clue”?
            I mean if we can’t decipher the correct “9” pieces of information, can we find the chest? Regardless of how we go about solving them… fenn told us of 9 clue in the poem. There has to be a reason he wanted us to know this.

            Now.. IF the poem can be deciphered without the book, does it stand to reason the *correct* deciphering would reveal only 9 critical, needed, pieces of information that will “precisely” lead to a chest, that some have been within 200′ of-?- regardless of knowing about how many clues there are?

            It seems to me, figuring out that there are 9 clues [ without being told ] is possible, but only when the *correct* solve if discovered. So it kinda matches with the ATF’s when we read them in that manner.

            I almost want to call the intro, clue #10. Or is it just a hint to know what we need?

          • Hi Seeker – maybe we need to invent another information category… how about “Other required information for finding the treasure chest that isn’t a hint or a poem clue”. We can call it ORIFFTTCTINAHOAPC for short… 🙂

            All I know is that there are clues in the poem that will take me to the treasure chest if I can figure out what they mean.

            And I am glad that I know the chest is in the Rocky Mountains north of Santa Fe in either NM, CO, WY, or MT; that there are 9 clues in the poem; that BIWWWH is the first clue; that there are subtle hints in the book that can HELP me solve the 9 clues; that there is “a word that is key” that will speed up the time frame for solving the clues and finding the chest; and a whole host of other things…

          • JCM,

            All right, if you’re gonna calmly make excellent points, then I don’t know if I want to talk to you. lol

            ORIFFTTCTINAHOAPC for short… ATF’s?

          • LOL Seeker…

            It can’t be ATF’s because of the second word of that bloated acronym…

            The acronym reminds me of a cow we had when I was a kid that ate too much of something. It stumbled while trying to get over a fence and died. Fortunately the meat processing guys showed up about an hour later and were able to butcher the remains of that poor animal. Sometimes when I eat too much, I am careful and avoid crossing over any fences.

    • The real question should be: Has anybody found those subtle hints in the book and correctly applied them to the solving of the clues in the poem?

      Some say they have found the subtle hints and connected them to their solves, others say the hints only work -after- you have solved the clues and they only work as confirmation (that changes the meaning of a hint) but they swear by it. Both of those groups are in different states and none have found the chest. Forrest has not confirmed, as far as I know, that anyone correctly solved any of the clues with the hints in the book. Has he ever mentioned anything about someone working with the correct subtle hints???

  53. Good points, everyone.

    For instance, Oz10. There are hints, but which ones are they? Therein lies the mystery … Like, is it that “my church is in the mountains and along the river bottoms …” Or, is that just where Forrest Fenn likes to hang out (excellent choice, by the way) but not where he hid the treasure?

    Sometimes it drives me absolutely batty!

    • “The hints in The Thrill of the Chase text will not be made public because they would say more than I want to reveal. Discovering which hints to use is part of the mystery.” No help with the current thread…just more confirmation that there are viable hints….

      • ken, exactly. The hints will say MORE than what he wants to reveal, but they are SUBTLE, not deliberately place, not in order and will NOT help anybody get closer to the chest but only will help with the solving of the clues.

        Linda, it is a matter of interpretation, right? How will you describe a subtle hint first and how will it help you with solving the clues in your estimation?

        • I do agree OZ10.
          Knowing that there are hints could aid the searcher as an additional tool should that searcher decidedly decipher something. To look for them before is kind of like playing darts on a map…yes?

          • All- I was looking for FF quotes regarding the above topic and stumble across one I had read before but a word i had overlooked before “JUMPED” off the page. See the quote below, focus on “kid but most of the places the clues refer to did.”

            Question: Did Mr. Fenn just say something about the time in his life when he first saw those places?

            From MW
            Question posted 6/25/2014:
            Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years?
            Thanks ~Ron
            Thanks Ron, thoughtful questions
            The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f

          • Jeff;

            I have long thought that the place Indulgence is secreted was a place that Forrest visited when he was a kid – much of that belief comes from this quote. Also, all of the time spent, and stories told about his youth in Yellowstone lead me to believe that the “Hidey Spot” is somewhere en-route from Texas to Yellowstone. JMO – JDA

          • ken, that raises the question of effort, especially since the instructions were, as we all know, read the book, memorize the poem, read the book again, etc…

            Should most of the time and effort be in finding those subtle hints in the book to help you with the clues, or should one go straight to the poem and forget everything else?

          • OZ10…perhaps *hints* in TTOTC should be labeled as forbidden fruit? *Effort* is a great word to use in your question. At this stage of the game(for me) I believe it be wise to use all info afforded. My direct answer to your Q is that the poem is absolute and should be scrutinized before all else. It is difficult with almost eight years of noise polluting the brain…

          • OZ10;

            Here is what Forrest has to say on the matter:

            “Forrest once said: “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f JDA

          • ** ** ** From MW Question posted 6/25/2014:
            “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did.” ff

            Question: Did Mr. Fenn just say something about the time in his life when he first saw those places? ** ** **

            No (or rather *not necessarily*).

            Chesler Park (in the Needles District of Canyonlands NP) existed when I was a kid, but I didn’t get there (or even know about it) until I was in my twenties, and have returned there many times over the decades since then, including with my own kids more than once.


          • Hi Jake,
            Precisely my point. I originally read it the way you just explained. But reading it again, I can now see how it could go either way in my opinion. Anything is possible. Just trying to look outside the box. May not be useful to any searchers but thought i would give it chance. J.O.

          • JDA and Oz, maybe Ken –

            Fenn gave specific instructions.

            1. Read the book
            2. Read the poem 6,8,10 times (study every line, word)
            3. Read the book again.

            Has anyone done this in a sitting?
            If not, that’s the homework for tonight.
            I am going to do exactly as Fenn said and see what jumps out at me.

          • I agree it can go either way Jeff, and why I modified my *no* to *not necessarily*.

            Folks have taken some interest too in the “*most* of the places the clues refer to [existed when I was a kid]” part of the quote.

            *Most* of them.


          • ** ** ** Lug wrote – Fenn gave specific instructions
            1. Read the book
            2. Read the poem 6,8,10 times (study every line, word)
            3. Read the book again.
            . . . that’s the homework for tonight. I am going to do exactly as Fenn said and see what jumps out at me. ** ** **

            “. . . if you read my book there are a couple . . . there are a couple of good hints, and then there a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge.”f

            So far so good.

            Regarding step 3?:

            “. . . then read my book again looking at *every word and every sentence* for a hint . . . “f

            “And then go back and read the book again but slowly, looking at *every little abstract thing that might catch up in your brain*, that might be a hint . . . “f

            It’s demonstrable that “. . . every little abstract thing that might catch up in your brain” will provide any reader with several blogs-loads of material.


          • Jak ~ *Most* of them.

            This can mean a few things, however, I have wondered if the place as been there forever [ so to speak ] but now is know of for a reason.
            Example; Yellowstone has been around since before JDA… I mean dinosaurs. But was established in 1872… is there a type of clue that seems to imply this type of meaning for it-?- after fenn’s childhood. { ‘Kid’ in my book is 12 or younger }

        • Oz10, I used to think punctuation mattered until Fenn (correct me if I’m wrong) indicated in one of his remarks that it did not. I think the river reference is important but that’s kind of in your face; it’s not subtle. I think I may have discovered one of the hints that lives around the edges, so to speak, but then I wonder, is that supposed to be a really good hint? Without the other three, it’s hard to say. I probably should make a list of everything I ever thought might be a hint and see if iany still apply. I do know where I would like to look next if I can find someone to team up with. It’s probably a good idea to go back and re-read TTOTC.

          • Hi Linda, the last comments from ff regarding punctuation, I believe, he says that it is not useful in finding the chest BUT that he is very careful when he uses punctuation. We have to assume that he was talking specifically about the poem. So it must be important as we read and understand the information provided where the clues live.

    • Linda, not picking on you but let’s use your example:

      “my church is in the mountains and along the river bottoms …” If we were to agree that this is a subtle hint, to which clue in the poem is it alluding to? How can we make a positive connection? It will be a good exercise I guess.

      On the other hand, in his book he told us the stories of him fly fishing along the Madison River and also bathing in the Firehole river when he was a kid. Is he hinting to those locations as possible sites for the chest? Then how can we really say that was (subtle)…, or that naming locations don’t really get one closer to the chest?

  54. What is a hint? That is an interesting question. let’s look at this paragraph as an example: Do you see any hints?

    “Surviving Myself” Forrest writes the following: “Sometimes when it wasn’t cold, I’d get even with my father for switching me by jumping out of the window by my bed and walking down to the cemetery, which was a block north of our house. It took guts to go in there when it was dark with no moon. I still remember the sense of accomplishment I felt when I sat on some dead guy’s grave marker. I wasn’t even afraid. A kid really has time to think in a graveyard.”

    Now let’s take a second look and see if there COULD be hints.

    “Sometimes when it wasn’t cold, (A hint to search in the summer?) I’d get even with my father for switching me by jumping out of the window by my bed and walking down to the cemetery, which was a block north (Is this a hint? 1 block is usually about 200 to 265’ so, Indulgence MAY be 200 – 265′ NORTH of something) of our house. It took guts to go in there (Yet another hint about it being a safe {not dangerous} place) when it was dark with no moon. (a hint that where Indulgence is – it may be dark – Take a flashlight and a sandwich???). I still remember the sense of accomplishment I felt when I sat on some dead guy’s grave marker (And yet another hint – Another mention of a grave marker like the one for the French soldiers???). I wasn’t even afraid. (Another hint to not be afraid?) A kid really has time to think in a graveyard.”

    I am not saying that all of these ARE hints, I am just asking the question – COULD they be hints??? Just askin’ – If they are, they are well disguised and NOT obvious like a “Madison River or Firehole hint.” – JDA

    • A slight aside JDA,

      If you have looked at the street view for 1413 N. Main St. Temple, TX than you might want to add at least a 100 ft. to your definition of a block.

      I currently speculate this as the Blaze is a block North from No Place For The Meek.

      • So, that makes it 300 – 365′ Forrest twice talked about the trip from Temple to Yellowstone being 1600 miles – across 5 states and with 5 people (different quotes). 1600 divided by five = 320

        Close enough for our 300 – 365′ don’t you think? I too think that Indulgence is 320′ from “Something” – but not “No place for the meek” I put that at about 200′ 🙂 JDA

        • Cool, I’m 61.29′ from There’ll be no paddle up your creek to my general blaze search area. I’m starting by turning over a log that is visible on google earth, it may not be there when i arrive but that’s part of the adventure. The log i mean…

      • I reread your post – I say it is about 400′ from NPUYC to Blaze and 200′ from NPUYC to the TC.

        NPFTM is quite a ways away – measured in miles not feet. JMO – JDA

        • Aside on an Aside,

          Forrest has always referred to marry the poem to a map, not the clues to a map, or am I wrong on that?

          • 1Q) Even today, after more than six years of people searching, and after all the news coverage, articles, and stories written about your secreted treasure, some people are just learning about your Thrill of the Chase treasure hunt and getting involved. It continues to inspire. Do you have any advice for these new people? How should they begin the search six years after so many others? Do you feel they are at any disadvantage?
            No, fresh eyes and new thinking might provoke a winning idea. I would advise new searchers to LOOK FOR THE CLUES in my poem and try to MARRY THEM TO A PLACE ON A MAP It seems like the longer one thinks about the search the more they complicate the problem.” – JDA

          • Thanks JDA and Seeker,

            Not sure how I got the first version in my head but I do like when I can get them out of there.

          • ID – You were probably thinking of this one…

            “Read the clues in my poem over and over and study maps of the Rocky Mountains,” he said via email. “Try to marry the two. The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.”

            I believe it essentially says the exact same thing as the quote JDA posted above.

    • Out of curiousity, I checked the Temple, TX grid system and found that the older blocks were square and measured around 313′ x 313′. I don’t know that the distance is important, since city blocks vary in their dimensions, but perhaps the direction is. To go “home” he would have walked south, and that was also the direction he and Donnie Joe needed to go home after their misadventure.

      • See my post above about 320′ nmc 🙂

        My direction from NPUYC to Blaze IS south and mostly south from NPUYC to TC – JDA

    • JDA, that is a good example of how anything, everything and the kitchen sink could be a hint if you wanted it to be.

      For example, I can say that when ff explained that Skippy was born in 1928, Forrest in 1930 and June in 1932, that was all a hint as to where the chest is located. There is someplace that reminds him of Skippy and another place that reminds him of June and this places are 4 units apart (call it blocks, miles or whatever else) then that means that the treasure is in between these two places because of the chapter ‘Me in the middle’.

      Or… I can say wait, these are actual verifiable facts related to his life and even if I want to magically convert them into hints, I must ask, did he embellish something here or did he included something ‘abstract’ that we can identify, and finally, which clue is this helping me with? If it doesn’t help me to decipher a clue, then it is just a door to infinite rabbit holes.

      • OZ10;

        To quote from my original post: “I am not saying that all of these ARE hints, I am just asking the question – COULD they be hints??? ” Just askin’ questions to generate a bit of thinkin’ and responses – Thanks for your response – that is what I was hoping for – JDA

      • By the way, the direct answer to the question is NO, I don’t think any of that is a subtle hint that can help with the solving of a clue.

    • Do you like maps and finding coincidences? When Forrest left the Air Force he was living in Lubbock Texas with his family, but he didn’t like it much cause it was flat and sedentary I think was the words he used. He was much happier when they moved to Santa Fe. If you draw a line from where he came from Temple, TX to where he ended up at Santa Fe, NM, that line will go straight over Lubbock, TX. I wonder if he knows that…

    • Hi JDA, IMO, until someone finds Indulgence they are all in theory potential hints. Mr. Fenn once said something like there are a couple of good hints in TTOTC and a couple out on the edges or aberrations or something like that. I believe that was in the Taos video (Maybe)

      But, I have documented so many potential hints that i have hint overload. Seems like everyone is looking for that fine line between over active imagination and hintsville. I have often wondered if we should take Mr. Fenn at his word. So if only the possibility of maybe 4 hints. What would they need to be in order to be valuable or useful in solving the clues. Jeff

      • Jeff,

        LOL, I might be the only person who will admit, the book confuses me.
        There might be a type of mindset that can pick-out a hint and run with it to discover a clue..or.. a mindset that can have an idea of a clue and see a potential hint in the book related to it. Neither method has helped me much…

        The one thing I’m concentrating on is; “…certainty of the location beforehand.” For me that means; where ‘all the clues are located’. It’s about the only way I can bring down the “many WWWH” to a single one and only reference and where it is at. [not a state, region, park size area etc.]

        Then again, I think WWWH and HLnWH are virtually the same [ as far as references go ]. So, don’t listen to me… each has to make up there own mind… so far it seems we’re all mindless. lol [ even the folks who solved the first two clues but didn’t know they did ].

        • For the record, the only time I honestly thought I solved a hint in TTOTC was in Tea with Olga.

          I deciphered loss and profit as referenced by Mr. Fenn in the first sentence of that chapter as drinking red and black tea. Because a business loss is considered in the “red” and a business profit is considered in the “black” so I thought I had really done something special until I realized I didn’t know to do with the green tea. LOL.

  55. Where did Forrest say that his wife didn’t know he was gone and that he returned home in the late afternoon? Fact or Fiction? I’ve been searching high and low for him to say this. How did all of this get started in the first place if its not true?

    I am sure we all are aware that it took F one afternoon to hide the treasure.
    Seeker you seem to be familiar with ATFs. or is it OS2, help?

    • CharlieM, I thought I read or heard it was months after he hid the treasure before anyone in the family even knew it was missing. But I will have to track that one down. Jeff

    • The comment[s] was something like; his wife didn’t know till 8 months later the chest was gone, at the time he hid the chest.

      I have heard others use the; ‘return home in time for dinner’ or something like that.
      I think the one of the first times fenn mentioned Peggy, not knowing the chest was gone, or anyone else, was the Moby Dickens book signing, but I’m not really sure. [2013]

    • CharlieM: EIS Radio interview (2013). “My wife doesn’t know within 18 months of when I hid that treasure chest.” Statement repeated on Rudy Maxa Travel Show in 2016.

    • Thanks all, I was aware that Peggy didn’t know until months after. I had gotten that idea in my head about “late afternoon” months ago when I first started out. I just can’t figure how I got that that idea, it must have been on a very early blog posting back somewhere in 2013, 2014 etc. Then again maybe from an article that I had read from long ago.

      Now I know that I’m loosing my mind or memory.

      Again, Thanks

  56. The hints help us solve the clues. “There are hints in my TTOTC book that can help solve the clues in the poem”. So what part of the poem do the hints help us solve? When I read that quote I think it can be read as the hints help in solving all of the clues. Yet he has stated that there are two hints in the book. If I’m reading his comments right, how do two hints help us solve all nine clues? I see a hint as butterfly=flutterby, the hint being that he likes to play with words. This doesn’t just help with a single clue, but helps solve all of the clues that involve playing with words. Take a guess as to how many of the clues I see as being plays on words. Hint: it’s more than eight and less than ten.
    ***The above opinion was provided for entertainment purposes only and not to be taken as inside information, wisdom, or even intelligent conjecture.

    • CharlieM, I thought I read or heard it was months after he hid the treasure before anyone in the family even knew it was missing. But I will have to track that one down. Jeff

    • JW, I like your thinking about a single hint solving several clues. I think some searchers consider that a “key” of some kind or something along those lines. I use a simple key that solves the first 5 clues. It hasn’t produced a TC yet but i like your thinking. Jeff

    • I’ll go with that one JW. Butterfly v. Flutterby and play with words. Which clue in the poem we can twist like that and come out with something useful?

      • JW, I don’t see any butterflies jumping at me, lol.. or any flutterby-like words in the poem. Perhaps you will share one day after a failed botg story. 🙂

        • Jumping butterflies? Great, now I have lepidopterophobia to add to my ovinophobia. I’m not willing to go into much detail, but I think the easiest word play to solve is in the fourth stanza.

          • Just hurry up and go get that treasure. Mr. Fenn isn’t getting in younger and he would really like to have that bracelet back.

  57. JW – what is the difference between hints and good hints?

    If I had to guess at a process that f used, the couple of good hints (low hanging fruit that are easier to get) are for help in figuring out the first clue. Once you have identified those and have the first clue figured out, you are onto the path of discovery with the correct idea for finding the other hints (note the lack of the adjective “good”).

    Then there are the aberrations… I have my suspicions what those hints might be for, but I will save that discussion for another time… like after I have found the chest. 🙂

    However, reality is — I got nothing! 🙂

    • JCM,
      –what is the difference between hints and good hints?

      In the eye of the beholder until we have other ways to judge them.

    • JCM, I’m tracking with you. I have even thought that possibly the couple of good hints don’t even have to hint directly at the first clue but possibly hint at how to narrow the thinking about the first clue. As an example, what if the couple of good hints help you understand the first stanza which in turn helps you determine the first clue. “To my uncertain knowledge” Mr. Fenn has not said anything to the contrary. JMO. Jeff

      • The truth is that Fenn calls the *hints*…^clues^. As in “…subtle clues sprinkled in the stories.”
        Everyone can shape shift their interpretation of what and where the *hints* are in the book and how positive each is to a !!solution!!… so far none of it means anything.
        Thinking about the noticeable **errors** in TTOTC may or may not logically lead to thinking the *right thoughts* to solve a clue…the hint/clues could be something entirely different than those.

  58. For the Madison Junction searchers. He states that he used to fly fish in the Madison. I don’t know if this will help, but look at “The Ode To Peggy”. Write out the last two words of each line into a separate poem. Like the first stanza would say:
    the sky
    the sky
    the sky
    the sky,
    Second stanza would be from the second lines of the poem, etc…
    The little poem is interesting, talking about a fly floating by, flying by, and about him. Probably coincidence, but could this be a hint for the Madison? It’s not my place, but I just thought it was pretty neat all the same. Of course, it gets you absolutely nowhere closer to the chest, but possible backup info is always a good thing.

    • The poem facts:
      4 stanzas,
      110 words,
      128 syllables,
      8 syllables each line
      In case the numbers mean anything to you…

        • okay, imo. Why, did I count wrong? I was going from memory. Easily figured out. Isn’t that big of a thing though, just noticed .

          • “In case the numbers mean anything to you…”

            . . . none of the numbers you posted are correct, and most of them are *way* off.

            So why bother posting them as “poem facts” when the correct numbers are “easily figured out”?

            You’re right that it isn’t that big of a thing.

          • Get over yourself Jake. It’s just something that could be looked at yourself. If the numbers are wrong, my mistake, you’re smart, figure it out. ISN’T THAT BIG OF A THING…

      • JAK: to save you two some back and forth, you aren’t talking about the same poem. Everyone knows Fenn’s poem has 6 stanzas, 24 lines, and a variable number of syllables per line. Charlie is talking about the Ode to Peggy poem on page 142, and his figures are exactly right.

        • Doh!

          Drive-by reading leads to drive-by posting (noticed the poem facts but didn’t read the preceding post).

          Then doubled down by driving by again this morning with guns blazing before noticing Zap’s post.

          My apologies charlie (and all other readers) – I’m turning my car keys and some of my ammo in to the authorities. I’m keeping the pie on my face, though, it’s delicious.


          • As I saw your post and went ranting. Sorry Jake. I missed Zap’s most intelligent post about me being right. Did I read that correctly Zap? Maybe you have figured this out already, but, in the book, chapter Teachers with ropes, f states that if anyone damaged the George Washington he would just restore it. Then says that he went over with a magnifying glass and noticed it hadn’t been touched. Then while eating ice cream, a girl comes up to him and says, remember me, I touched George Washington, and he says, sometimes I get things right. Okay, is there a hint of sorts in there, or just banter? Why would he point out that nobody touched it, then say a girl did touch it? (or the girl said she did). I’m sure he had a bunch of classes come through, was she in another class, and is there something in that. If anything, I’m just curious. Is it a hoB reference, the kids and the rope. The centipede. There are Brown centipedes, that live under dead, fallen trees.

          • Hi Charlie – my intent was to diffuse a situation that was based on a misunderstanding, but I got a good laugh out of Jake’s graceful apology.

            Regarding Stuart’s George Washington painting, wasn’t the whole point of the story that Forrest was trying to teach the students that art shouldn’t be worshipped? That an art experience could be enhanced by not restricting it to just our eyes. He encouraged the students to (ever so gently!) touch the painting. Not unlike encouraging visitors to his gallery to “Please touch. We are responsible.”

            “Then says that he went over with a magnifying glass and noticed it hadn’t been touched.”

            Not that it hadn’t been touched — that there was no *indication* that it had been touched — i.e. no damage.

    • Very Clever! That’s like “borderline biddies”. I used a similar technique to decipher not far, but too far to walk… but no treasure.

    • Seems to me that he is talking about doing something correctly in the morning in order to have a “Complete Breakfast” that someone who is successful – or not – will enjoy. Got me??? JDA

  59. Tlo: thanks for the heads up! Emma: you’re going to love Forrest’s answer. Now he’s messing with you, too. 😉

    • Zap, maybe Forrest is teasing me a bit. More Alexander Hamilton connections….

      The Best Advertising Slogan of All Times According to Digg users: “Got Milk?” Created by Goodby Silverstein & Partners for the California Milk Processor Board, this campaign kicked off in October 1993 with a commercial about a history buff who receives a call to answer a $10,000 trivia question, “Who shot Alexander Hamilton in that famous duel?” Because of a mouthful of peanut butter, his answer is unintelligible and his chance at fortune is squandered. The ad, directed by Michael Bay (“The Rock,” “Transformers”), was named one of the ten best commercials of all time in a USA Today poll.

      • One of my favorite ads, Sandy! Mouthful of peanut butter trying to answer the Hamilton duel trivia question with “Ehwahn Beurre”. Oops: there’s that butter again! 😉

  60. Just a sobering reminder for those searching in grizz country…


    Wyoming wildlife managers have euthanized two grizzly bears that they believe killed an elk hunting guide and injured his client near the border of Yellowstone and Grand Teton national parks north of Jackson Hole.

    “I can only imagine how horrific this was,” said Sy Gilliland, a hunting guide and spokesman for the grizzly hunting community. “You’ve got a bear population that’s basically un-hunted, is an apex predator, and has no fear of humans.”

    From another article in USA Today…

    Longtime Wyoming hunting guide Sy Gilliland said the way the bears acted should give backcountry users concern.

    “They weren’t going after the elk carcass– they were going after the human beings. That should raise the hair on the back of all of our necks,” he said.

    Keep that bear spray handy!

    • “BE BEAR AWARE!!!” What more can one say. Was the Grizz protecting the elk kill? Sounds like it – TRY and STAY SAFE ALL – JDA

      • The bear didn’t kill the elk, the hunters did.

        Some locals are accusing the guide and hunter of using the elk carcass to bait a bear. They had shot the elk the previous day and intentionally let it lie overnight before field dressing it.

        • The term “Dinner Bell Grizzlies” has been in use for a couple of decades. I know these were bow hunters, but bears have a keen sense of smell. For a fascinating read, I loved the book “Ghost Grizzlies”..all about the last known Grizzly bear in Colorado and Ed Wiseman. It wasn’t that long ago…

      • They said the bears hadn’t touched the elk. This is right near my search area. When I hiked out here bear sign was everywhere including the trail markers being chewed on. How’s your search going JDA? Another trip in order this season?

        • I’m just ever so much more content hiking and ‘searching’ in New Mexico. Those viscous armadillo are pretty easy to outrun, and, failing to do so, it just takes them ever so long to gnaw through my sock before drawing blood.

    • “County officials”, or the more common designation: the brother/sister in laws of the politicians who hired them. Lets run through their excuse for killing a cub: “that was not normal behavior to attack the humans”….

      let us think this through as if we were not “officials”, a mother bear happens along on an elk carcass, goes back to get her cub, comes to HER elk carcass now, only to find some other bear or “thing” trying to steal her carcass, what does she do, does she attack the carcass? or does she attack the thing trying to steal her next meal? a Thing that now has parts of elk carcass strapped to their back… or preparing to strap on their back….

      lets grab a clue here “officials”. there was an elk carcass involved, please do not try to pretend that there wasn’t. Which would make it similar to every other situation that resembled a carcass stash…. WHICH IT WAS…. geez.

      • I don’t know that I have ever heard of a case where a human being was consumed where the bear(s) weren’t put down. Once they see us as a source of prey they never forget which is why bear spray is so important as it gives humans a skunk quality the bear will remember.

        • Yes that is our way… unfortunately. And future cultures will look back on us like we look back on Aztecs who sacrificed their children and captives and best animals by cutting out their hearts in the eyes of the gods for a good harvest.

          And for the record and future cultures, the best way to handle a case like that is to tranquilize the two bears, put collars on them, (which they do anyway) then once a month for a year or two, (or if the bears get close to a human camp) a crew of forest service personnel, show up, up wind from the bears, let the bears get a good wif, then approach the bears with bean bag shot guns and long distance bear spray and harass the heck out of them.. Soon those bears wouldn’t even want to sniff an abandoned boot, let alone be around a human. It wouldn’t stop their instinct when surprised, but that is what a ‘normal’ bear does anyway.

          can you imagine the the long waiting list of the forest personnel who would volunteer for such “fun” duty. would be an adrenaline rush for sure.

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