Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixty Six

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Thanks…

 

dal…

889 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixty Six

  1. I’ve decided to stop looking at maps so much and focus more efforts on the poem. If all of the information is in the poem then it must be solvable just by understanding it. All of the potential hints seems like it might just be too much outside noise.

    • Good thinking Aaron.

      You now have me wondering if it’s just the poem or do you still need a map? Wondering now how to interpret Mr. Fenn’s comments about only needing the poem. I am imagining myself with just the poem and wondering where do I drive to and where do I park. To me there would be a big difference in how a person would go about focusing on just the poem if that were true.

      I don’t really have an opinion either way but maybe I should figure that out because my solution absolutely needs a map and that could mean it’s a no go. I am really hoping a map is also required. Hmm?

      • Yeah, it does sound like it’s the poem all along. Figure out what the clues mean, the double meanings. But it’s basically natural landmarks with the possibility that some ancient pueblo site might be part of it too – riches new and old. I further suspect the answers to the clues will seem obvious once you figure it out. That slaps oneself on the head type clues that seems like it should be obvious, but for the obscurity on the surface of it.

      • Jeff – I would say to use ge map on your computer – how else are you going to look for the clues from the poem

    • Jeff and Aaron: I think maps are a requirement for success (unless you have comprehensive knowledge of the geography of the Rocky Mountains).

      “I would like to reiterate: Please go back to the poem and look at maps for your answers.”

      “Is the map that needs to be used to discover where warm waters halt found online or in paper form? or both? ~mdc777” (Cowlazars)

      Forrest: “C’mon now agent 777, a map is a map. The more detailed maps are most useful if you have the right map, but I’m not sure I needed to tell you that. F”

      “Read the clues in my poem over and over and study maps of the Rocky Mountains,” he said via email. “Try to marry the two. The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.”

      • Yep, map needed for sure, but maybe not until figure out what is going on in the poem first. Just by spending a lot of time on the poem I have some generated some new thoughts and ideas. Whether they will take me to a map has yet to be seen.

        • Hi Aaron,
          At least a year ago I gave a solve for “if you are brave and in the wood”. I hope you remember it. You agreed with my thinking, so go back to it and use the thought process to help you solve the rest of the poem. And also, keep in mind FF’s quote “the one that can adapt” that is very important to interpret what he means when trying to solve the poem. IMO.
          Hope this helps.

          • Hi Jeff, I do not remember it but if I agreed with it I may have it my notes, so I’ll look into it. Thanks.

            I do think being able to adapt and change your way of thinking is very important. Getting stuck on one way to look at the poem could be detrimental to solving it.

      • NOAA has a thermal springs viewer with springs identified by colored dots on a zoomable map. Specifically, yellow dots are warm springs. It also shows hot springs (orange) and boiling springs (red). I think it was Jake Faulkner who once mentioned Cody Reservoir having submerged a few hot springs. The NOAA map shows these as warm springs. IMO this is a good candidate for WWWH (it is associated with the reservoir water, not the dam). If your WWWH is associated with thermal springs, maybe those shown as warm vs hot are more on target.

      • A detailed map (s) of a 4 state region of the Rocky Mountains……hmmm, you’re going to need a warehouse to spread that map out. And try folding it back up. 😉

      • Hi Zap,

        Do you know the source of the e-mail with that about making all the lines cross in the right spot? I am a little curious if there would actually be more than 2 lines if there was a way to get lines on a map. I feel like I am in a hook, line, and sinker moment.

        • Idle D,

          I believe making all the lines cross, is a metaphor for solving all of the clues to where the treasure is.

          Just Say’n

        • Idle Dreamer: insightful question. Initially I was quick to dismiss the line-crossing quote because it was second-hand information. Nevertheless I think it’s an accurate recount of something Forrest wrote or said. Since you asked, the source is the Business Insider story:

          http://www.businessinsider.com/forrest-fenn-fortune-hidden-rocky-mountains-2017-2

          The key word, in my opinion, is “all.” He didn’t say make the lines cross; he said make *all* the lines cross. Nearly all (two-dimensional) lines cross in a single point, with the only exception being parallel lines (to include identical lines). So generally making two lines cross is unavoidable.

          But it’s geometrically rare for 3 or more lines to cross at the same point. *That* is what makes Forrest’s statement the most interesting in my opinion.

    • I believe that several of the clues in the poem can and should be solved before looking at any map. That, in my opinion is why a child can solve part of it. Its the “answers I already know”/ things we all know if we just think hard enough.

      • Flutterby: I’m more or less on board with that. But beyond the first clue, I really think you’re going to need a map unless you’re already extremely familiar with the area (“comprehensive knowledge of geography” ATF).

        • It’s about closure speed. Can you put together the big picture. I maintain this most be done before going BOTG. I suppose you could look at a map while piecing together the picture. Maybe that’s a way to improve confidence.

    • Since I am fairly new to the search and the process is still fresh in my mind, I got to thinking about how it truly started for me; kind of like “the chicken or the egg” analogy.

      I first read the poem, several times. Didn’t have a book yet.
      Then I thought about an area (Like Yellowstone)
      So I got a map and started looking for WWWH.
      And it’s been “chicken or egg” ever since except i bought some books in between.
      But, let the record show, the Poem came before the chicken or the egg.

  2. Curious,
    If any one was wanting to go about selling their work/clues/information.
    How would you go about it?
    Now think about it….
    I am Not asking…. Would you?
    I am asking what would be your game plan on selling your info?

  3. I think if wanting to sell your information, you would have to reveal something publicly you know, for the Chase Community to be interested and to take you serious.
    It would have to be a big “Wow”.
    Any thoughts…..
    Clearly Clueless

    • Hey CC – I think FF would first have to notify the search community that the chest was found, before anybody gives up key information related to or helps make up their general solve. People like to keep secrets.

      • Tim
        I don’t have the chest.
        I don’t know where it is.
        If, I or somebody else, had the 9 clues and wanted to sell the clues, plus other information which had been gathered.
        How do you think someone would go about selling the information?
        The 9 clues would lead someone to the treasure.

  4. Someone should ask Forest if Indulgence can be found by someone who only hears the poem read out loud, as they themselves cannot read/are illiterate. This would provide some delicious food for thought.

    Can you guess what I’m getting at?

    ~Wisconsin Mike

    • Tarry Scant – is it TARry or TERRY that is the question – Either way he pronounces it, it COULD still have the OTHER meaning in solving the riddles of the poem though. Who knows maybe BOTH are correct – JMO – JDA

      • Hi JD,

        Have you ever wondered if keep is kee or key? I have experimented with that one but not sure if other have. Jeff

        • No I have not. For me the word that is key is not in the poem, but a word that makes finding Indulgence possible if only you follow the trail until it disappears. JDA

    • There was a Q&A at MW…. someone asked about a well known blind woman if she could find the treasure in case she could only read the poem in braille… Forrest just answered she should team up with the little girl in India…

      This doesn‘t answer your question 100%, but it almost goes in the same direction I think!

  5. JCM just released update 4 of his wonderful Chasing Words document. The update is great, includes 2018 quotes and allows me to do research about Forrest’s words right on my computer without an internet connection. I also find that Chasing Words often has links to quotes not found on other search databases.
    I’ve been using Chasing Words now for a couple years and I love it…

    You can review and/or order your own copy here:
    https://no-paddle-creek-co.myshopify.com

    • Thanks for the tip, Dal.

      Thinking about it, ironically, the ultimate testimonial kills all demand immediately…

      “Dal sez: This thing’s great! I found the TC by using it!”

      • Heard dat…. lights out, party’s over.
        Guess i need to get my copy and study more before that happens.

  6. So, aardvarkbark, I never saw an armadillo in New Mexico, certainly not in the Rockies, though I’ve always wanted to see one. Where are you, down near El Paso?

  7. You still need a detailed map, but after you don’t just feel, but are solid with the first clue. That should get you in striking distance, but it’s still going to be hard to figure out the rest. But I doubt it’s all that complex or convoluted or have a lot to do with esoteric mysticism, or mythology, complex math or other scientific disciplines. It’s simple but hard to decipher till you get it, then one wonders why one didn’t think of it before.

  8. I think I’m at the point where I’m okay sending my solve to Dal, though it might take him some time to compile it for the internet (adding in the pictures and whatnot).

    If someone finds the TC using the backup solves I didn’t get a chance to check out, I’ll just have to deal with the knowledge that I was close.

    • Sorry to hear that you‘re finished with your actual solve, FMC! I hope you found that „secondary treasure“… good times, fresh air, freedom!!!

      Best
      TLo

  9. This morning on the way into work, I was listening to A Gypsy’s Kiss segment on the 1,000 year search and Toby mentioned Mr. Fenn’s autobiography. I’m paraphrasing, but the conversation mentioned the autobiography Mr. Fenn has confirmed is sealed in the olive jar and placed inside the TC. Toby referenced it as original, copyrighted, and possibly might even contain valuable information. Most would agree with that logical assessment. Also, most everyone agrees, there are at least a handful of said autobiography or some version of it in some of the bronze jars. Again, Mr. Fenn has confirmed.

    So where am I going? I still believe the autobiography will quickly rise in value when found and if a person is willing to take it auction. If that premise is correct, then the chase never ends because those handful of bronze jars which also contain said autobiography just jumped in value.

    So for me and many, it will only ever be The Thrill Of The Chase but, for a handful of fortunate searchers they will also receive a nice down payment on happiness and for Mr. Fenn, the chase goes on “Dancing with the Millennium”. Well I think that’s brilliant Mr. Fenn!!! I dream about being that smart. Thoughts??

    • Jeff;

      IF I were to find the chest, and thus find the copywrited autobiography – Can I publish it? As I understand it, no, not without written permission from Forrest or his estate. IF I get that permission, and publish it – of what value are the other copies? I would think, not a whole heck of a lot since it will have already been published.

      If my copy is never published, is your copy more or less valuable than mine? The more copies that are found, does that increase or decrease the value of each?

      All interesting questions. Copy #1 has yet to be found.

      IF a bell copy is found BEFORE the chest – what effect does that have on the “Chest” copy? More to think about – Just wonderin’ – JDA

      • Hi JDA,

        Yes, I agree those are all great questions. Thanks for fanning the flame/discussion.
        My understanding is that you can not copy it hence copyright protected. That is the premise of my thinking which took me to the place that a rare (only 5 or 6 known publications in existence) could become a high value collectible. I’m definitely in over my head on this subject but thought it might be an interesting topic. Jeff

        • I guess I will just have to find that silly treasure, and then ask Forrest about the autobiography, and the ones in the bells – who knows what he will say. 🙂 JDA

          • Well you can sell the one and original copy! That is definitely yours…
            I will put the TC in a vault for a bit of time, maybe even longer than the recommended 30 days and feel like Smaug…

            I can iimagine not to sell anything at all if other possibilities open up to change my life a bit… 😉

  10. … on STANZA 5.

    So why is it that I must go
    And leave my trove for all to seek?
    The answer(s) I already know,
    I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak.

    I think this is clue #1, and a major clue to the state locus. …. WY or So Wy.

    Here’s why….
    It was so unbelievably simple & obvious from the git-go that “So Why” could easily mean Wyoming or South Wyoming, that was disregarded …. ie…. a perfect clue.

    Here’s how….
    ‘So Why’ phonetically poses a natural question. Thus a sentence was cleverly constructed to incorporate it into a question format … as its own disguise. (mind games at their best) A mysterious non-‘answer’ was included to to further disguise & deflect.

    So WY” is the clue. The mysterious ‘question’, and the ’Answer he knows’ lodges in everyone’s brain as the trick to follow. Focus is on the Q & A, and the clue itself is easily disregarded. The only real question is it WY or So WY? But the place he went to hide his trove was definitely not MT, CO, or NM.

    FF buried the clue’s prominence by putting it as stanza 5, but many searchers have seen stanza 5 as the starting place. FF jokes, he drove there and back (tired & tired, dual meanings) and is weaker by 42 lbs.

    Another little dual purpose hint was included: ‘leave my trove’ = covered by a canopy of leaves.

    I think stanzas 6 & 1 follow the thought. Hard to hear in a wind. Must read the signs new & old. Begin where WWH. OS2

    • Nice way of thinking but still JUST your opinion I guess, right? Despite the two „I think“ you put quite a few points in there as facts, which I doubt they could be…
      All JMO of course… 😉

      • Your right Tlo, I noticed I forgot the IMO after i posted. Sorry. Yes…. just my opinion. Or, IMI, in my imagination.

        • OS2, are you forgetting the rest of the line altogether? “That I must go”?
          If you are reading that line as a clue, then wouldn’t it be: Sowyst?
          Since the I must go.
          This could be: Southwest, South Wyoming State, etc…..
          Or you can go by the “sounds like” idea of
          So Y is it, but with the “I” must go, leaves
          So Y st. (Doesn’t really make sense).
          If you disregard the rest of the line, “that I must go”, is this what f meant when he said that a few words won’t help, but it’s not good to disregard any? If these are the words he was talking about, that leaves a lot of words left in the poem that would need to be used, if not all.
          With an “I” in that line, and the comment after being the “I” must go, it seems like these words can be used to get at what is meant in this line.
          I have a different way of getting wy from why, to each there own, but the line should be read as, “Sowyst”. IMO. Then ones conclusion to that can be formed. Whether you think it’s Southwest, South Wyoming, or whatever.
          I don’t know about it being the first clue, I wouldn’t think so, but it would look to be a clue. It’s giving a direction, which could be seen as getting one closer to the chest. IMO, line 17 is a clue…

          • Now saying that it is definitely not in Montana is totally false, we can’t make that decision from this line if you are not using the whole line. That would be picking and choosing what fits by one’s solve, and not reading the poem for the solve.
            If Southwest is what is used for this clue, then it could be a direction you are going in Montana. So Montana is still very much in play. If your solve has you heading in South Wyoming at this part of the poem, then it is obvious what this line represents.
            All IMO, but leaving out “that I must go” is a mistake.
            As far as under a canopy of leaves and such, I agree, highly possible.

    • OS2: while there’s nothing wrong with the theory that “So why is it” could be a *hint* to Wyoming or southern Wyoming or even West Yellowstone, it cannot be the first clue because we already definitively know that “Begin it where warm waters halt” is clue #1.

      • Begin has to start somewhere…. & when there are many WWH (most N. of Santa Fe) one can hardly begin ‘there’ without a little application of logical deduction.

    • OS2,
      I have to disagree. I think that clues 1, and 2 are accomplished by the time you find the blaze because they tell you what the blaze is. By bv the time you get to stanza 5, you no longer need a hint to the first clue. And I dont think it confirms the first clue. I think it confirms a process in nature that we must understand to solve this poem. IMO

    • Good thinking OS2. I have been focusing on this stanza mostly lately and will take it a step further. Could the ‘IT’ in the line ‘So why is it that I must go?’, be the same ‘IT’ in the beginning clues? Thus – So WY is IT – that I must go. Begin IT…

      • Donno Aaron, when I try and think deeply about the poem, I tend to imagine myself as the author constructing the poem, not the searcher extracting from it. It’s 24 lines, 15 years, and $3ish million in precious possessions, I don’t think any sentence or word is a throw-away. But any may conceal a hinty-cluey-rationale.

        • That’s a good approach OS2. Today, I was listening again to a Mr. Fenn interview. I do that hoping I will glean something new or different. And at one point in the interview Mr. Fenn said he wrote TTOTC in 6 months or less and for the first time it occurred to me the great disparity of taking 15 years to write a poem vs. 6 months to write a book. So, no truer words spoken about the importance of almost every word in the poem.

        • Aaron,
          I am looking at the 5 to 1 idea. And I can’t dismiss it. But my opinion which has already been shared is stanza 1 narrows the area to look on a map for the first clue (WWWH).

          So I am in the 1 to 2 camp. But I can see how a person could reverse engineer from 1 to 5. At least with my approach to the clues. So, I can track with that scenario. But, I didn’t use 5 to decipher 1 which could be the flaw for me.

          Still noodling on 5 to 4. This one is more difficult because Mr. Fenn has said the first clue is WWWH, and he has said searchers have solved the first 2 clues, and I know he has said the clues are consecutive, and I know he has said there are 3 or 4 clues in the 2nd stanza. So, for those reasons, It will be hard for me to expand my thinking in this area which again could be another flaw in my thinking. Best of luck to all searchers. Jeff

      • Sparrow,

        Why?
        IF we are to start with stanza 5 with the idea of understand where we go from there… what are stanzas 5 6 2 relaying?
        I mean some, several, more than several have found the first two clues and others may have solved [indicated] the first four clues in the correct order right?
        What is so magical about attempting to understand anything by the idea of those three stanzas should be understood first… Years back when Halogetter made this suggestion, it was mainly about the idea of the question… yet something in the other stanzas should be just as important, or what a waste of 1/2 a poem…

        I’m curious.. does anyone see the possibility that 3 stanza match three others-?- regardless of their order in the poem.
        Example; stanza 6 to 2 ~ stanza 1 to 4 ~ stanza 5 to 2…

        • Personally Seeker, I don’t. It seems that from the 5th line to the end, it’s just one path, one way. Like he’s telling the story as he’s walking the path, looking forward at times but never looking back. To move anything within the poem without being instructed to do so, IMO, is messing with the poem. To simply start at the fifth, forth, or whatever stanza, that’s outside the natural course of the poem, is a guess, IMO.
          There is a lot to solve within the poem, but the poem, IMO, must give the instructions of what to do. If not, it’s simply a guess, with a high probability of being wrong. If somewhere in the poem, it is deciphered to read, “start with stanza 5, then by all means. But that is not the case. If there was something that said to match-up stanzas, or pair up, then go for it. But there isn’t.
          So, in doing these things, I believe the “messing with the poem” rules come into play.

          • Hi Charlie,

            I tend to agree.
            On the topic of instruction. I have often thought while reading and rereading TTOTC that Mr. Fenn was instructing the reader while telling his wonderful stories. I’m not referring to the hints that help solve the clues but rather general instructions. Wondering if anyone else every sensed that. Everyone knows how much Mr. Fenn likes RULES!…See examples below

            GROUND RULES:
            Teachers with Ropes
            1. The clues are contiguous like the children and the rope
            2. Do Not Touch the order of the clues.
            3. Only touch the poem by connecting with the poem through imagination.
            4. Use all senses, BOTG. Eyes only will not work
            5. Children might have an advantage to finding the treasure because their imagination is more present.
            6. People Will Say I am a Fraud.
            Looking for Lewis and Clark
            1. Consider the risk involved before you start.
            2. You could get lost
            3. Prepare properly

            No Place for Biddies
            1. You will go off trail.
            2. You may cross a creek or stream
            3. I cant tell you enough, be prepared!!

            Tea with Olga
            1. It’s not on top of the mountain

          • Charlie,

            It’s not really “moving” anything and more to the idea of ‘understanding’ why three stanzas [ 2 3 4] seem to hold clues 1 thru 9, yet stanzas 1 5 6 don’t get utilized too much.
            But you brought up the idea the poem should tell us what to do… well, many are doing just that. They think the poem has characteristic of other books and we need to read those books.
            I have suggested Tarry Scant could relate to math [ Tarry point and “9” point circle ~ or just simply math might be involved.]

            Others use letters within words to produce another word that matches to a map etc etc. So use New and Old as artifacts and there history… the list of ideas that come from the poem is endless. Yet, using one stanza to help another [ the idea I gave above ] is messing with the poem?
            They are stanzas within the poem and not moved around, only in thought of, why they seem to be there in the first place.
            If “all” the information to find the chest is in the poem… 3 stanzas need to be utilized IF – IF only 3 stanzas are holders of the clues…

          • Interesting Jeff. I would tend to agree with your finding of info. There are just things that are either dwelled on by f, or where the info has changed by him in an ATF.

            Seeker, I see what you are saying. I guess really, we all start with a guess on how to solve the poem. It’s hard for me to see that only three stanzas hold all the answers, I’m more in lines with Stanzas 2-6 hold all the clues, with clue 9 from line 24. So I guess I’m more biased to thinking the poem just flows through each line to another. Plus I’ve tried to match up stanzas and have not really come up with anything. That’s not to say there is nothing there, I’m just a blind guy in a China shop swinging around my stick, looking around. I tend to look at the poem and think it is the holder of everything, just as it is. And, it is the one thing that must instruct.
            But I see what you are saying. We have to start somewhere, right? We have to have some idea of how to approach the poem and solve, so I guess I can see anyway as valid. It’s just a hard pill for me to swallow when searchers mess with the poem without being instructed to do so. Like I said, if a searcher can show a solve where the poem does do that, then I’m good with their solve, I just don’t see those instructions, that’s all. And who am I? Searcher 375,963, okay maybe around 750, but still nobody all the same.
            It’s funny, but after all this time, what 8+ years, nobody has given or has even come close to giving any info on at least 1 clue that could be seen as “that’s the answer”. Not one clue. We all have our ideas, but 100% solve of a clue, lol, zipppp. I’m thinking, maybe that isn’t the way to go. We all know that following the clues will get us to where we are going, but maybe that line in the book isn’t about following the clues precisely, but more like following the poem precisely. He wrote the poem that of which if followed precisely will get you to the spot, ohhh, and there are nine clues in the poem.

        • Seeker—-

          I know this will sound like I know something other people don’t know (lol—true of so many huh?) but I really do have a very valid reason that I cannot share why I believe the poem STARTS with stanza 5 and ends with stanza 4.

          Several months ago I posted an article—it wasn’t a “solve”—just a series of things I had seen in the poem, and questions that they raised. It was called “FISHIN'” https://dalneitzel.com/2018/05/11/fishin_1/ (If you care to read it once again here it is).

          Most likely I will be sharing part 2 of this article as I have grown weary once again of this Chase, and want to make a final break with it. The only way to do that is to share what I think are some very important aspects of the poem—-one of them being that you start with Stanza 5. When I share this you will understand why I state this. I am confident that I am correct in this matter—whether it leads to a “solve” or is a MAJOR step in solving the poem I really don’t know.

          • Sparrow;

            Months ago I put forth the same argument. Almost all riddles start with a question, so starting this one with “So why is it that…? seemed logical to me.

            It worked well for several searches – but alas, It failed to work in a couple of instances. I now think that Stanza #1 is a prelude, and that the clues go from Stanza #2 to the end of the poem.

            This line of thinking has gotten me to where I am today. So where is that? I think CLOSE to Indulgence. I should know how close before the end of Indian Summer – we shall see –

            Sorry to hear that you are again disappointed in the search. If you leave the search you will be missed – JDA

      • I completely disagree that stanza 5 contains any clue or a key to where to start. Stanza 5 is simply a question with a statement. We already know why F hid the treasure, he has already given us the answer. The statement was that he was tired before he hid the treasure and that he was weak after doing so.

        The one thing that is putting a halt right from the get-go is where is the warm waters that halt. We also know if you don’t know where it is you won’t get anywhere with the rest of the poem, plain and simple. So trying to figure out the rest of the poem before hand is a waste of time, you might as well stay home and play canasta.

        What I see is a desperation in trying to figure out the beginning and hopscotching to other parts of the poem before knowing where to start saying they contain clues that give you where to start. Or moving stanzas around their original order IMO will get you further away from the beginning. What I mean about desperation is to use anything that causes rabbit holes or using anything outside of the poem such as other books by authors that is completely unrelated, just because F mentions those books.

        All that I am saying is learn why wwh before moving on, strongly focusing on wwh and nothing else. Put biases to the side such as what state to begin with, not on popularity as anything to do with F’s past life and where he went or his favorites. This is *only* about the poem and the right map, the treasure, as it is no longer about his final resting place.

        Learn, learn, learn wwwh, if one doesn’t the treasure will never be found and at the beginning use knowledge and not imagination, as the start is a factual place. Is it not true, if you want to go to a actual place that you are not familiar with you need to use a map? The poem is nothing more than given directions to a precise place that is drawn on a map. Marry the poem to a map and not over think or assume anything else. The poem is straight forward and in plain English, paraphrasing what F has said. There are subtle hints in TTOTC provided you can *recognize* them.

        F has even said, paraphrasing, there are *few words* in the poem that will not help in finding the treasure. Not all of the words in the poem as some suggest.

        Of course this is how I feel, learn about the physical place and then put it on a map and go from there.

        I’m Just Say’n

        • CharlieM ~ ‘F has even said, paraphrasing, there are *few words* in the poem that will not help in finding the treasure. Not all of the words in the poem as some suggest.’

          Did you forget the part about ~it’s risky to to discount them? Dismissing 1/2 the poem is a little more than just a ‘few words’

          You said ‘The poem is nothing more than given directions to a precise place that is drawn on a map.’

          Nothing more? Hmmm seems many think this way and so far no one even knows the first answer to clue one… even though they [many] mentioned it to fenn, was on site, went by seven more clues and yada yada yada… LOL what dang maps are ya’ll using??? 8 years and all that is know is, ya can read a map.

          So we need to “learn” where WWH..ok and we have a six stanza poem that has “all” the information… yet… why should we bother with other stanzas??? You and others can say “move stanzas” all ya like, it’s not what was said… the words were “matching stanzas”… do I need to draw ya a map for that?

          • So Seeker, I see you have a lot to say of how others should read the clues. Can you tell me what I should do after I find WWWH? Is it at the location? Is it to look on a map? Any combination of clues? What’s your take?

          • Brain,
            First off I don’ tell anyone how they should read the poem, but i have said i think we’re reading this poem wrong… we’re just BSing about WhatIF?

            IMO I don’t think we leave WWWH and travel a canyon. I think it’s a viewing station of sorts. My thought is “take it in” is not a physical movement, we just need to observe what is needed to be seen.
            In almost all posted related solves, everyone has moved from clue… those who have been at the first two clues “went by” the remaining seven clues, “walked past” the chest, left the poem…
            Why? Well, in all the solves I have read, they all went into or around or drove by a canyon, or even started a physical track at a later clue they found on a map farther away.

          • Seeker,

            What I was trying to say is that some folks think all of the words in the poem must be used to find the treasure, they won’t discount any word, even when F said there are few words that will not help, just because it might be risky.

            Do I have to draw you a map? I said, moving the stanzas around *will move you further away from the beginning.* a Layman’s term Don’t move the stanzas around from the order F put them.

            It’s apparently you DO read to fast and don’t comprehend. I figured you would say something even when you truly have no argument.

          • Seeker, You’re not mentioning that searchers don’t stay indefinitely at their search sites. They obviously have to head back home at some point, presumably by vehicle. This can account for going by the last 7 clues.

          • Fun,
            I think that’s a long shot at best to think heading home they simply pasted by clues.
            I doubt when fenn talks about clues, the poem, the activity of searchers, and leaving the poem, means something else besides ‘in search mode’

            The same idea has been talked about with the words; some, others, people, etc to be something like tourist… but I see comment like; people have figure the first couple of clues, to mean searchers. The same idea is when fenn says he walked less than a few miles *twice / in total* and some would like to believe that could be 50 ft. Well, feet are not miles [plural]. Or as some have stated in the past a beaver dam can be WWH because it’s not man-made..lol even after fenn stated a beaver dam is a dam…
            Not to forget fenn followed the clues… yet others might say, only some of the clues…right?

            At some point in time we have to make up our minds, when fenn is actually talking about; the search, the searchers, their and his movements, time involved, the clues etc etc etc. Or fenn only says 85% of the truth 100% of the time.

            I didn’t proclaim “indefinitely”… I said we may not have to leave clue one because the observational part of the task could kick in right at this clue.

            “…And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again…”

            Well if he’s not going to, why should I?

          • Seeker,

            He walked less than a few miles, to me means less than 1 or equal to 1 mile, anything more than a few miles is greater than 1 mile.

            Just Say’n

          • Charlie,

            Maybe it’s that new math I have been hearing about, but it seems to me “Miles” is more than one.
            I mean, 1500 feet from the car to the hide and back is 3000 feet, rinse and repeat is 6000 feet… a mile is 5280 feet… less than a few mile[s]can be 6000′ in total…. under 5280′ is less than a ‘single’ mile.
            However, I still have the impression that the distance to the hide from the car includes all the clues, and possibly, the only walking involved it to get to the clues… with some minor movement at the clues location… all depending on how large the WWH area might be. In theory anyways.

          • You never know sometimes, Seeker. I didn’t say you proclaimed “indefinitely”. I’m just adding a fact that helps keep in mind all possible angles so we aren’t assuming things.

            Same thing with this “…And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again…”

            Could just mean f drove down a small canyon once and didn’t take a trip back up the canyon.

          • Fundamental…I agree that it is not wise/smart to assume anything based on any unproven opinion about what something means. That goes for ATF and/or the poem. There are *limited* facts as it is to base anything on…best to solve the clues and *follow* them as Fenn has described. Precisely.

        • Not saying you are wrong CM, but this seems like a bit of oversimplification. I see stanza 5 as one that has answers to stanza 1. This does not mess with the clues, but allows us to determine how stanza 1, with the help of 5, point us the area of the location that the first clue references.

          • Seeker, you have to forget about these people that have been close but didn’t know it. You don’t know what clues they had. He never said someone was on the ground and solved the first two clues then drove by the others. He said people have solved the first two clues then went right by the other seven. He didn’t say in a car.

          • Aaron,
            How am I a bit of over simplifying?

            When you are saying stanza 5 has answers to stanza 1, they are so far apart, how in the world can a question in stanza 5 help with stanza 1 as the answer to the first clues location? That is a *big guess* a rabbit hole that holds nothing. IMO

          • CM, I could be wrong but I think I may have found something in the first stanza that points directly at stanza five. I need to do some more work on this theory though.

        • Good thoughts, both Charlie’s.

          I often wonder when some suggest that something in the later stanzas might tie in or help with the earlier stanzas if they feel f wasn’t capable of writing his poem with the clues being solvable from top to bottom or wherever they think the last clue is.

        • “Hey!! What are you doing??? Don’t mess with the map!!!!”

          “I’m not messing with the map.Its drawn correctly. It’s just that this part should actually be on top. See? That’s better.” They just had this section of the map in the wrong place. Maybe someone did it on purpose”.

          “But why? Do you think they wanted to make it more challenging, or a little harder to find the place we are headed?”

          “Could be. Let me take a look at that map. You know? You’re right. This bottom part should have been above all along”.

  11. IMO
    So why is it that I must go – Simple statement – I must go to the Y.
    And leave my trove for all to seek – I’m hiding the treasure before I get to the Y.
    The answers I already know – Look directly north of the already eye for the answer.
    Explanation Already eye – eye of the brown trout in the solve, fish don’t blink.
    I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak. – I’ve been driving but its time for botg.
    Stanza 5 is Stanza 5 Just my opinion.

    • Good opinion as any, but I differ. Good luck finding the Y or eye …. theres probably a lot more of them than WWWH’s.

      • I’m going to the Y soon. Technically the W.Y. not to be confused with WY but then again I am starting my search in the WY and ending in the W.Y.

        wow! now my head hurts a little….

    • I wouldn’t knock Tim’s outlook on “Y”. It is highly possible. The ‘Y” looks like someone standing with there arms in the air. And, look at Skippy’s name. If you ‘skip’ “p”, you are left with “Y”. And Skippy should have been buried standing up.
      There are possibilities, depends on how a searcher has it incorporated into a solve. Just with the thought of the “Y”, a lot of his statements come to play. “Two people can keep a secret…..”, knowlege, Skippy standing, a switch, trees, the shadow, West, etc…..So I’m with you Tim, “Y” is important within the solve. JMO.

    • or “I’m hiding the treasure after I get to the Y”…just not at the Y…he doesn’t say “so why is it that I must go TO leave my trove for all to seek”…just food for thought…not even my opinion

      • My thinking is that So = south in this instance . Therefore he is going to the Y and leaving his trove south of it. In my solve I’ve gone south once already to find the blaze. The blaze “solution” told me to go back north and this line is saying how far… before you get to the junction of the Y. IMO

        • For me, “Y” is at the blaze, and is what you take from line 16. It’s then head southwest a certain distance to arrive at the 8th clue. This is the spot the poem gives coordinates to. And, is where “Y” is stood up, like Indy in the map room. It’s also where the Wyoming Medicine Wheel points to. Possibly a “bell” hidden at the 8th clue. The shadow cast and the key give up the final spot.
          All, in practice, could be destroyed, coordinates are the back-up.

          • Sounds like a cool solve Charlie! Sounds like you are in Wyoming. My solve is in Montana. My coordinates are only the ” seconds” as I don’t believe Forrest would put the Degrees or minutes in the poem. The poem gets you to a small area ( you could probably find the box by just looking) and the coordinates put an X to it. Many people seem to be confused by the fact that a couple of people were “close 200′ and many people were within 500′ “then went on by the box. In my solve this would happen as a matter of course. The box is 500′ off of a back road but is closer to 1000′ by the way you would go to retrieve the box and you pass right by when you follow the clues. Then you return after finding the blaze. This explains the 500 footers, the 200 footers must have gone to the top of the ridge to get a better view. All in IMO. I am pondering putting out my solve with identifying information removed but am not sure what the upside would be. I have had 2 BOTG trips and no box so far. There is only one more place to look , maybe next year.

  12. OS2, interesting take. You will get some replies on your “first clue” comment. Mr. Fenn has publicly stated “the first clue is begin it where warm waters halt.

    Regarding the weight of the chest. Every time I am listening to or reading Mr. Fenn’s word’s (paraphrasing) “I had a tough tour in Vietnam, I lost 22 pounds and didn’t even know it” I chuckle a little. Not because we had a tough tour, I am a veteran myself and would never wish that for anyone, I chuckle because we all know where we can find that 22 lbs. and a really nice Romanesque chest to put the 22 lbs of riches new and old. Good luck on your search, Jeff

    • Jeff, I’m not so sure of the ‘first’ clue being at the word “Begin’…. that may be a tricky interpretation of Fenn’s remark …. maybe ‘Begin’ is the first clue for the actual bog or eyeball search effort. Or the first clue in the given stanza sequence. I was thinking/projecting about the Fenn’s careful construction of the Q & A sentence. Why even suggest there was a question and not name it, and that you have an answer, and not name it? OS2

      • Gotcha OS2!
        So clues and hints are often interchanged. If I understand, you think that stanza 5 may have what I typically think of as a hint maybe the first hint that could be used in deciphering the 9 clues. I can follow that thinking, but will hold steady to the fact that the first geographical clue is BIWWWH and there are 8 more that must be followed in consecutive order and those 9 clues are contiguous as well. Good luck to you! J.O.

        • There’s seems to be some certainty by many about the lack of importance of stanza 5 and honestly, who knows.? But I tend to think that there has to be more than a couple of contextual hints. The reason I believe it’s so hard to interpit at this point is because until we have wwwh and hob, the apparent first steps to the solve, we have no starting point and for that matter no possible way of taking a closer look at specific areas. I think once those basic beginnings are found the rest of the poem has some clues that are very intimate with the location of the chest that we simply have no way of seeing from a distance.

          Some of the angles that cause me pause are the words he uses implying there is multiple answers in the stanza that at first glance only appears to ask one question.

          The other potential clue that could be quite meaningful in this this stanza is his wording ” so why must I go?” Perhaps once you’ve located a couple of the clues and focus on an area, this is his indication that he actually has vacated the site on his journey. Perhaps this also gives meaning to tarry scant with marvel gaze = meaning don’t be confused by your own bright ideas and try to focus on the relevant details.

          I.M.O. Of course

          • Double a, You make my point, and miss my point at the same time…. you say “we have no starting point”… that is precisely what stanza 5 gives us, a starting point. Stanza 6 refines it somewhat, and stanza 1 even more so ….. Then we can ‘Begin’ the search. People got bogged down again with minutia, the clue #’s, and not the clever content of the sentence that forces the deduction. C’est la vie. OS2.

          • Not missing your point at all, I think you took my comment a little to personally. It’s what Jeff said that I liked and felt like more to it. But to be honest I can’t buy your theory at all with starting with stanza 5 no matter with how much info i think might be there.

          • i would put your previous thoughts into the group that see a lot of importance in that stanza, just to be clear.

    • Jeff

      Forrest said paraphrasing

      You have to know where warm waters halt, that’s the first clue.

      I agree with OS2 that the clue may not include Begin it

      • Lugz, he did say that somewhere but in the New Zealand interview he says ‘begin it where warm waters halt’ is the first clue, the whole line.

      • I keep forgetting that in that interview he also says that two different parties -figure out- the first 2 clues and went past the treasure, but they got pretty close. So one thing is that all the clues locations are -pretty close- to each other and second, those parties who were able to figure out those two clues, did they really know they had? If they knew and were pretty close, what happened to them in the last 5 years?

        • There doesn’t seem to be a way for them to know for sure if they found the chest. If anyone knew they were that close would they ever leave the area without the treasure?

          • Right. Maybe ff thought they had really figured it out at that moment but as time went by he wasn’t so sure.

        • Oz10: just conjecture, but there are a few possibilities. One is that they guessed the correct WWWH , or at least weren’t very sure it was right. After failing to figure out the third clue and beyond, they moved on to other search areas.

          Another possibility is that some two-clue solvers ARE confident that they’ve got the correct starting point, but they misinterpret the third clue and consequently end up “leaving the poem.”

          • Zap, it could be possible. If you listen to the interview again try to read his body language, I know no visual, but I mean the tone in his voice when he is relating that. I hear a bit of amazement at how close they got, and then he says ‘they didn’t figure out the other 7’. He seemed certain that they had nailed it down. I don’t know, what do you hear?

          • Zap,
            Your second option is the one I believe most likely. I think they got 2 correct and then either walked, drove, flew, not even going to guess the mode but, they left the poem.

            The part I am thinking about mostly is how they roamed back into the search area. Possibly wondering up some creek or an area they thought was HoB but was really closer to end is ever drawing nigh or something like that.

            But with no confidence no chest.

        • OZ10,
          If you were one of those people, and you never knew you had the first two clues, then you would either keep trying different solves or eventually give up. Later quotes suggest others have made it that far. I’d like to see some folks who have been at it longer than me (before the quote you mention). maybe revisit their earlier solves. I believe HOB is also the blaze. Would that help anyone with an earlier solve? I suggest ignoring the word wise. I think it causes people to get hung up on wise owls and so on. I think that if you’ve been wise, you solved the first two clues and made it to the blaze. Is there anyone whose HOB could also be a blaze?

          • Flutterby, that they -decipher- the first two clues but did not know it and moved to other solves is very unfortunate cause that means they were not able to find enough info/evidence to nail it down. That concerns me.

            Is hoB the blaze? There it seems to be a close relationship between the two. Forrest said about hoB ‘if I told you that you will walk to the treasure’ and also about the distance from the blaze to the treasure ‘if you figure that out the answer will be obvious’ paraphrasing.

          • OZ10 & Flutterby,

            Just another possibility regarding HOB. Once you reach HOB it becomes obvious as to the direction you should take next. Not boxed in but something along that scenario.

            So if you knew the location of HOB you would easily solve the remaining clues but still HOB could be some distance from the blaze. IMO. Jeff

          • Oz10 & Jeff: you should watch the video again, try to read Forrest’s body language, and listen to the tone in his response to Jennifer. I really don’t think his reply was serious. I think it was sarcastic in response to a repeated question that the reporter should have known he would never answer. As if to say, “If I told you that, you’d have the state, the county and the canyon,
            so you’ve got to be joking to think I’d respond to such a question.”

            So no, I don’t think you can draw any conclusions about the proximity of home of Brown to the blaze from his flippant answer. You also have to ask yourself whether Forrest would intentionally reveal such an important data point (home of Brown being practically at the chest’s location). People have been trying to trip him up for years without success; I don’t think the outcome on this occasion was any different.

          • Zap…I did not hear any indication one way or the other in Fenn’s response. Maybe a tinge of frustration at a repeated Q…but certainly nothing *solid*. It could be a truthful answer that could be interpreted a number of ways. What I do see though, is that his response aligns exactly with the current condition of the Chase at the time…and possibly still holds true. Nowhereville past the first two clues…

          • Hi Ken: I think Forrest is probably a pretty good poker player. My main message to Oz and Jeff was that it’s probably not wise to draw any conclusions about the proximity of HoB to the blaze based on that one comment.

          • I agree that the blaze and HOB could be related. One of the reasons is like Oz said about the HOB quite if I told you that you will walk to the treasure.

            Also, I think it is a mistake to think you have to be at HOB after taking the canyon down. We are told to put in below it. Being at it could put us near the blaze.

            How about the second hand quote from Cynthia when she mentioned a cabin being HOB to Forrest. He replied that the treasure is not associated with a structure. Yeah he could be referring to clues, but to me it sounds like HOB is where the treasure is and it is not associated with a structure.

            I am keeping an open mind on this subject.

          • The argument that the blaze may be related to hob is almost a moot point. I believe that Fenn has been very consistent with his comments and statements in regard to solving the clues in order starting with the first clue. It may indeed turn out to be true…but I think the process has to prove itself before assuming that. “You cannot solve the problem by starting in the middle of the poem. You should start with the first clue and then solve the other eight in order.”

          • ken, I was going to mention that too we should remember the instructions, FOLLOW in consecutive order. It is easy to say that the only reason this was said is that if we don’t have the right location for wwwh we won’t be able to locate/see the next clues from there.

            Or…(big maybe) there is no way in a million years to correctly determine what the blaze is IF we don’t understand what the home of Brown was; and another million years to know what the home of Brown was IF we don’t understand what -where warm waters halt- means. For those who are experimenting with wordplays may understand what I mean.

          • Revisiting discussions about *hints* from TTOTC…page 11
            the disparity of the written words versus the actuals facts of the story Fenn was telling has been exposed by some, and Fenn even mentioned it outside the book. Some folks have gone off on tangents assuming one thing or other about which book he was referencing. Fenn says he did it to see if folks would notice. Just by him mentioning that, indicates to me that the actual stories probably do not matter in terms of the hint that may be lurking real close by…off to the side. Another example of digging one’s heals into an assumption without substantial legs. I can exhaust myself pointing out possible hint/eggs on just about any paragraph in the TTOTC…doesn’t make them pertinent to the poem solution. I’m still in my *riddle* phase and feel pretty comfy with it so far…and like you OZ10 ^word play^ possibilities are keeping me busy. Thanks for sharing your thoughts.

          • Zap, I agree. I was sort of suggesting pr it was my intent to suggest everyone keep an open mind with the example I provided.

            My take on Mr. Fenn’s response was pretty much the same as yours, his response was an embellishment or overstatement. J.O.

          • All,
            Another consideration:
            When the thought creeps up in my mind that one or more clues might reveal the same location, I often revert back to the thought that Mr. Fenn worked on the poem off and on for 15 years. And at least for me, he has given the impression each clue matters. So if you only solved WWWH and the TC was there then who really cares about the other 8 clues and the same goes if the HOB is the blaze then why bother with clues 5,6,7,8.

            So my thinking could be wrong but it’s a reconciliation process that plays back and forth in my mind and I always return to each clue is unique. Hope i’m right. All IMHO. Jeff

          • Hi Jeff: I concur that WWWH is distinct from HoB is distinct from the blaze, and that Forrest designed their respective clues so that they couldn’t be solved out of order. (No short cuts.) So if a searcher doesn’t have WWWH nailed down, then time spent trying to figure out HoB or the blaze would be better spent with Ackley and an odd set of playing cards.

        • Did forest actually say 2 people figured out the first 2 clues would Or did he just say one group came within 200 feet and somebody else came within 500 feet? I ask this because I know how these two groups of people could’ve been that close and not known to look for it there .

      • I understand your logic but then how do we reconcile not starting with the “first clue” when paraphrasing he said the clues are consecutive and contiguous.

  13. I’ve always thought Stanza 5 is the cipher to the poem. I have struggled to figure it out. I do believe that this stanza unlocks IT and I. I also believe it changes. From there it’s no…..referencing stanza 1.
    I also believe that I must go, and leave my is further instruction to stanza 1.
    He said follow the poem “precisely”
    That’s what I think is the AHA, slap your forehead moment. Written in plain English right in front of everyone.
    Try as I might, just can’t make it all fit.
    All IMO

  14. Has anyone ever considered this line like this?
    And take it in the canyon down. Using synonyms read it this way; And take(booty) it in the canyon down(at the very bottom).
    Just wondering.

    Kanafire

    • There have been lots of different solves using idioms, metaphors, similes, synonyms, and other forms of wordplay. I have a couple solves-in-progress that use such.

      I have not seen your specific example before, and I know what follows here isn’t *quite* what you are getting at, but it does call to mind a young Forrest sliding down the iron fire escape slide all the way to the bottom, getting brown stains on his “booty”.

      I also recall he was once asked if he walked all the way from his car to the hiding spot or if he used an alternate mode of transportation for part of the way. He said (paraphrasing) that he could not properly answer because whether he answered yes or no, some people might argue the point if all the facts were known.

      So, does “scooting on your booty down a slope” count as walking, or as a separate mode of transportation? 😉

      Things to ponder.

      Good luck.

  15. I’ve been going back basics lately an have a question for the Fenn community.

    Turning over a log:
    Has Forrest ever said BOTG are required to end the chase? Or do we all just assume that?

    Can you pount to anything Forrest has said that would make this anything but an armchair treasure hunt? It is featured very, very prominently in Jenny’s new book “Armchair Treasure Hunts”.

    Please, help me find why i need to be in fights with prickers and bears….

    • You can’t see the blaze without being there. There is no other way to find it but by searching the area for it. I know this to be true but must say IMO

    • My reading of the chapter “Gold And More” in TToTC (too long to quote verbatim here) suggests very strongly to me the following things:

      1) There is actually a bronze chest filled with gold and other treasures.
      2) He did actually hide it.
      3) It is actually somewhere in the Rocky Mountains waiting to be found.
      4) To claim it as your own, you have to pick it up and take it home with you.

      If point #1 is false, this whole thing is just an exercise if imagination and … well … exercise. Or a fraud, depending on your point of view. I do not believe Forrest would lie about the chest existing. I’m usually a pretty good judge of character, and he strikes me as a fundamentally honest person. Tricky, but honest. Plus, other people claim to have seen the chest and treasure (before Forrest hid it).

      If point #1 is true but points #2 and/or #3 are false, it could be anywhere in the world and there is no way to find it with the information we have been given in the poem and all the ATF sources. But, I do not believe Forrest would lie about these facts either. Same reason as above.

      If points #1 through #3 are true, but #4 is false (which I *think* is what you are asking), then there would have to be an alternate way to “claim the prize” with a correct solve. To my knowledge, Forrest has never even *hinted* at any other way to claim the treasure. Based on what I can find, it seems a lot of people email him saying they know exactly where it is, and he always either does not respond at all or says something spectacularly unrevealing, such as, “Good luck on your search.”

      Every Forrest quote I can find from books or ATF indicates that ending the chase means you have to know exactly where the treasure is (presumably by solving his poem), and you have to take it physically into your possession. Do that and it is yours to keep. I can think of no reasonable way to accomplish that other than to go BOTG.

      Ultimately, I guess you have to decide for yourself whether BOTG is necessary and what alternative might exist to “end the chase”.

      For myself, I figure even a failed BOTG is at least still a fun vacation and a chance to see landscapes I’ve never seen before. It beats sitting around playing Canasta with Ackley.

  16. I don’t mean to repeat, but I must. Taking your own biases out (which we all have and love; so I know what I am asking is hard), has Forrest ever said anything or written anything at any time that would mean botg are required and this isn’t an armchair hunt?

    • MW Q&A in February I believe Forrest wrote Rocking chair ideas will lead you the first few clues, but it takes a physical presence to complete the solve. GE won’t show you the last clue. Or something like that.

    • Hi Twingem,

      Not sure if this is what you were looking for:
      “…Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve. Google Earth cannot help with the last clue….”

      That is partial so you need to get the full context of the question and answer from here – 6th question:
      http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt-double-charmed/

      • ** ** ** Twingem asked – “Can you point to anything Forrest has said that would make this anything but an armchair treasure hunt?” ** ** **

        How about this –

        “Stop arm chairing that thing to death and get out in the trees where the “box” is . . . .” f

        Argillite’s “rocking chair” quote above is another good one addressing the topic of “chairs – getting out of.”

        And then there’s this –

        “More than a few people have said they know where the treasure is but are in wheel chairs. They want to know if I will bring the treasure to them.” f 😉

        Jake

        • Jake, if no armchair is needed the alternative is to just take the book with the poem and a map, jump in your truck and go into the mountains. How many will be willing to do just that?

          If no more than two clues can be solved from home it will be difficult to get any real confidence. In that case, maybe only those who live close to the Rockies will ever have a chance.

        • Oz10: as far as I’m concerned you are correct: if you only have two clues solved, you might just as well have zero clues solved as far as treasure chest recovery goes. No one should leave home armed with only the starting point … they’ll end up with nothing but a nice vacation. Proof? Multiple teams had two clues solved by 2013, and yet it’s still out there … 5 years later! Two clues is apparently NOT enough, and being on site doesn’t seem to help advance beyond those two.

    • Twingem,
      Unlike others I cannot guickly tell you when or where the quote is but, I do believe that Forrest has said that you cannot solve the last clue or retrieve the treasure without BOTG.

      Kanafire

      • Here is a quote from page 7 of the thrill of the chase,
        It’s obviously not an answer to a direct question about the chase. With that said if it’s not a direct hint on how to proceed with the chase, it’s a great look into his mind as to how he views such matters…

        “Who would you rather have working on your car, a man who just graduated from four years of mechanics school or a guy who has been working on broken cars for four years? My father said that to me one day with no one else around. Can you believe that?he was just standing there by the car doing something important, and he said that to me out of the blue. He was really smart the way.

      • Oz10, I agree, that’s the theory I have used for my general solve.

        I did see something once on GE satellite that a reasonable person would say with 100% confidence a blaze would be “right there at that spot”. You couldn’t of course see “the blaze” but, you would go there knowing one of the many types of blazes that Mr. Fenn has mentioned is there.

        Coincidentally or maybe just confirmation bias (not sure) but, that spot is only 150′ from where my general solve ends so I will be checking that location as well when BOTG even though the clues did not lead me there.

          • Hi Oz10,
            The HoB is a location on a map for me. But not any map. I am using a detailed map. This map also has first five clues (All IMVHO). But even on this detailed map, I can not see the blaze which is fine. So I agree with you.

            One day I may share the photo of the place I referenced above. I promise you would be entertained by it’s blaze like qualities. But, it’s just a coincidence that all.
            Good luck on the chase. Jeff

          • Jeff, if the hoB is a location on the map can you share the reason of WHY was (wwwh) needed?

            I don’t know if you can understand my question but why ff keeps telling us to figure out wwwh first if some lucky person can find the right home of Brown in a map?

            Is it because wwwh has a place name on the map and hoB don’t, maybe some unnamed geographical feature that needs understanding? Just picking yall brains.

          • Oz10 (and Jeff O. if you are to follow):

            “Jeff, if the hoB is a location on the map can you share the reason of WHY was (wwwh) needed?”

            My answer (obviously not necessarily Forrest’s): WWWH is uniquely solvable; hoB is not. Pretend that there are a thousand WWWH’s, a million hoB’s, and a billion blazes. Which should you try to solve first?

          • Oz10,

            Short answer, what Zap said. I know he will love that I said that but, he’s 100% correct IMHO.

            The first stanza tells me where to search for WWWH. It doesn’t tell me anything about HoB. The prior clues lead me to HoB from WWWH. You have to find the right WWWH to even have a chance. All IMVHO. Best of luck on your search. Jeff

          • Oz10, second part of your question. Both WWWH and HoB have names on “a map” for me. But, that really isn’t that useful because Mr. Fenn said something once, about a searcher who thought he cracked the poem, like “he must be added to the list of searchers who are presumed to have deciphered to clues” or something along those lines. Well that’s pretty much every searcher. LOL. So you know everyone has there approach. I stumbled upon this map and we started liking one another.

            But there’s information out there that can help with Stanza #1 IMO. If you really are picking my brain, do some research on The Bozeman Chronicle. My entire methodology started with something I found there. In fact someone just realeased a video about it this week so it’s pretty much out there in the cyber view so to speak. Jeff

          • Jeff and Zap, by what you are saying then it is all about the location. Your homes of Brown have names on the map but nobody will ever find them until they first find your wwwh. My hypo question had a lucky person, or make it a very very lucky person that can find your hoB. If it has a name on a map it can be found, right?

            Answer this, after this very lucky person found your hoB should he NEED to stop and reverse engineer to nail down the correct wwwh or can he just continue towards the next clues with confidence and can completely disregard your wwwh?

            Tips: ‘If you don’t have that one (wwwh) nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta’ f.
            ‘If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about wwwh?’ f.

          • Forgot to paste the last part here.

            Based on those 2 comments from ff ‘Begin it where warm waters halt’ is a MUST, it is CRUCIAL. Also his home of Brown is ABSOLUTE it stands on its own, it could be rev eng’d but not needed. Using our logic how are these two facts possible if they are just place-names on a map?

          • Zap ~ ‘Pretend that there are a thousand WWWH’s, a million hoB’s, and a billion blazes. Which should you try to solve first?’

            But we know, there are many WWH and even many more blazes… should there be many references for canyon, hoB, creek, HLnWL… doesn’t it seem logical to know of the ‘Location of the clues’ first and foremost, rather than picking a WWH out of the many-?- or attempting any other clues in the same manner.

            LOL I mean, if Walmart is the first clue, and all we do is say, it’s in this state or that state… there’s still hundreds to choose from. So picking a state doesn’t help. Lets try by county… umm, still way too many to toss a dart at.
            Hence the reason searchers are spanned out all over the RM’s in four states.

            “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

          • Oz10,

            So, first just know my theories like most searchers have a 99.999% probability of being incorrect. The successful searcher IMHO will be beyond Six Sigma (5 nines) or 7 standard deviations from the norm. Mr. Fenn may have referred to this type of person as a Maverick. To be clear, I am not a fan of ciphers and codes so that’s not what I am suggesting is a Maverick. IMHO

            With that said, I have never reverse engineered. I wouldn’t have even known where to begin and I don’t think a reasonable person could reverse engineer the clues with exception of maybe the first (WWWT) and second clue (ATIITNCD).

            So when I say these locations are on “a map” they are truly on a map. I am being honest about that. But, the name of the locations, as an example, Molly Brown’s Historic Homestead, are not the type of named locations I am referencing if that makes sense. Jeff

          • Morning Seeker,

            I’ll chime in real quick while I’ve got a minute.

            You said: … I mean, if Walmart is the first clue, and all we do is say, it’s in this state or that state… there’s still hundreds to choose from. So picking a state doesn’t help.

            I wonder. Let say that Walmart was the first clue. Then, if a person determined that Denny’s was the next clue, wouldn’t that help?

            And if you had already learned in which state the Walmart was located in, I think finding a Denny’s not too terribly far away might be helpful in narrowing down the rest of the clues. IMO.

            I think picking a state does help and that information has been provided, in the poem, prior to finding the Walmart. IMO.

            It does beat throwing darts!

            SRW

          • Hi Oz10: “Jeff and Zap, by what you are saying then it is all about the location. Your homes of Brown have names on the map but nobody will ever find them until they first find your wwwh.”

            I wouldn’t say nobody can find my home of Brown — I would say that it isn’t unique, and therefore they would have no reason to favor it over the millions of other possibilities.

            “If it has a name on a map it can be found, right?”

            It is “discoverable”, yes, if you can recognize it. It’s nothing so obvious that “Brown” is in the name.

            “Answer this, after this very lucky person found your hoB should he NEED to stop and reverse engineer to nail down the correct wwwh or can he just continue towards the next clues with confidence and can completely disregard your wwwh?”

            Since you have to put in *below* the home of Brown, you’d need to know how to interpret that instruction. Knowing what WWWH is would help, but even that is not enough. *All* the clues must be solved in order; WWWH and home of Brown are not adjacent, consecutive clues in my opinion.

          • Seeker: “But we know, there are many WWH and even many more blazes… should there be many references for canyon, hoB, creek, HLnWL… doesn’t it seem logical to know of the ‘Location of the clues’ first and foremost, rather than picking a WWH out of the many-?- or attempting any other clues in the same manner.”

            Sure, Forrest could have designed his puzzle that way: a holistic approach where all the clues are pretty close together, self-reinforcing, and thus you would in effect solve them all simultaneously rather than consecutively. But … I don’t think that’s how he constructed it. I believe the clues were designed to be solved in order, consecutively.

            “LOL I mean, if Walmart is the first clue, and all we do is say, it’s in this state or that state… there’s still hundreds to choose from.”

            My WWWH is not like that. It is not one of many. It is not a dart toss. It is a unique location, precisely described by Forrest’s clue.

          • SRW,

            The idea was; most, if not all the clues had many locations to their references.
            So we used Walmart and Denny’s for examples… there is still dozens or more possibilities for those two combo in a single state, idea.

            I don’t think we need to work at this as a process of eliminations. Before the NZ radio interview about WWWH is the first “clue” [2013 I believe]
            fenn stated;
            “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

            The way I read this is; The path refers to the clues [9 clues starting with WWH]
            The “location” is where the clues are to be found [some say it the spot of the chest, but I don’t see it that way]. A specific area, much smaller that a state or region within a state, line of thinking. A location that might only hold all 9 clue’s references with no other possible reference near by.
            I’ll add, [ by use of ATF’s] I think this location is small enough to contain the clues, walk the clues about 1/4 mile [maybe a hair further] from where a person starts clue one and back another 1/4 mile, for one full round trip… with the idea of two full trips.

            Picking or guessing a state or region involving many hundreds of mile and many possible references.. is a poke and hope for many places to be searched. fenn’s comment above doesn’t seem to imply this, IF one can figure out the “location”

            Is that the riddle, the important possibility, the certainty and confidence… The need to know of the “location” that holds all the correct clues to be deciphered, first and foremost.
            IF so, is it a clue? I don’t think it could be. Clues take you to the hide. The location takes you to the clues, line of thinking… without the clues, even the location is useless, and without the ‘correct location’ the clues won’t work…
            So is the “location” indicated in the book? [ hints in the book will help with the clues… meaning all the clues ] Or is the “location” riddle into the poem?

            There is no way that I can think of to narrow down [process of eliminations] clues that have more than one reference place, across the RM’s, other than figuring out ‘where’ they are first.

          • Zap~ ‘My WWWH is not like that. It is not one of many. It is not a dart toss. It is a unique location, precisely described by Forrest’s clue.’
            [referring to the Walmart example]

            How can it be ~ “not one of many” and be correct?
            fenn said there are many wwwh in the RM’s. “and nearly all are N. of SF”

            WWH can’t be unique, that it is found only in one place throughout the range.
            LOL at least one of the same references should be south of SF as well.
            They only way it can be unique from all of the same references… the second clue must combine with it in such a way… both clues are needed to nail down the correct WWH… but then we get into the dilemma that the second clue is just as important as the first..to be nailed down. Which kinda implies the second clue is a stand alone clue [no others in the RM’s, line of thinking]

            I’m gonna challenge you… ask Dal for my e-mail, send me your idea of WWWH, and allow me to respond “honestly” of my thoughts… include the process of how you came about this particular WWWH.
            Yep, there needs to be trust involved, But like have have told others [ in e-mails ] I won’t search their area of clues, and what is said in private stays in private.
            I hope some won’t mind me mentioning them, but a ‘short’ list of those are;
            Loco, Colokid, JCM, Charlie, Sam Smith… That have given me their trust. Hopefully without regrets…

            Up to you……..

          • Zap,

            Short answer: If some really lucky person found a map with the name of the location that I am using as HoB. And without any other clues simply pointed to that spot and said yep that’s the HoB, I would say his name is Forrest Fenn.

            With that said, I would have to honestly say yes, it would be possible to reverse engineer. I know Mr. Fenn chose not to answer that question by saying something like why would you do that?

            My only suggestion for that really lucky person – “why bother with HoB, buy a lottery ticket on your way to the Blaze. LOL.

          • Seeker,

            I do get what you’re saying. You’re looking for a “location” as opposed to a state. The information must be in the poem…Fenn has said that it is (paraphrasing).

            Therefore, the information that you are looking for must be able to be found in the poem. And it is (IMO). Stanza 1 is very important. Otherwise, we wouldn’t have the certainty that we should have, when going to get that chest. IMO.

            You said: Picking or guessing a state or region involving many hundreds of mile and many possible references.. is a poke and hope for many places to be searched. fenn’s comment above doesn’t seem to imply this, IF one can figure out the “location”

            I’ll say this: I did just recently realize that the “location” that you/me/and everybody else is looking for is in the poem. I call those hints (IMO). And when you add all those few hints up, you will have your “location”. And who knows…maybe “that” is what the word that is key is…maybe. IMO.

            In addition to to that “location” information, I’m also able to find my search state. And having both the state and the “location” are extremely helpful. IMO.

            I think that once a person has that location info, and the state info, you’ll find that there really aren’t very many Walmart’s or Denny’s around left to explore. IMO.

            Lastly, about the “location” info. For me, it goes back to Fenn saying: you have to look at the big picture….and…..there are no shortcuts (paraphrasing again). Those two statements just might describe the starting “location”. They definitely describe mine. IMO.

            All IMO.

            SRW

          • Afternoon, Seeker. “How can it be ~ “not one of many” and be correct? fenn said there are many wwwh in the RM’s. “and nearly all are N. of SF”

            I would say there are thousands of “reasonable” solutions to the WWWH riddle (and one really good one that’s far better than all the rest). But I’ve never felt “Begin it where warm waters halt” is a line that can be solved — with specificity — without additional information. That information is found in multiple places in the poem, but most easily discovered in the first stanza, in my opinion.

            “… at least one of the same references should be south of SF as well.”

            I think that kind of thinking is going to distract you from success. There are lots of *wrong* WWWHs that can be found throughout the world. There is no requirement for the correct WWWH to be of a type found anywhere else.

            “The only way it can be unique from all of the same references… the second clue must combine with it in such a way… both clues are needed to nail down the correct WWH…”

            In my opinion, no. WWWH doesn’t require solving the second clue. I think the second clue certainly helps to let you know you’ve got the right WWWH, but it’s not necessary.

            “I’m gonna challenge you… ask Dal for my e-mail, send me your idea of WWWH, and allow me to respond “honestly” of my thoughts… include the process of how you came about this particular WWWH. Yep, there needs to be trust involved, But like have have told others [ in e-mails ] I won’t search their area of clues, and what is said in private stays in private.”

            I will consider it, particularly since you’ve specifically addressed the privacy issue. But in fairness to four others who worked hard to solve my WWWH on their own based in part on hints I’ve provided here over the years, I want to take their wishes into consideration. Some of them have progressed beyond WWWH in their solutions and will surely want the opportunity to test their theories out in the field. So I won’t consider revealing WWWH to anyone before the 2018 search season has ended.

            A sensible question is why would I tell anyone what I thought WWWH was, or assist them in figuring it out, given what’s at stake? Two years ago, I wouldn’t have. I held WWWH very close the vest. But I’ve come to accept that the third clue is much harder to solve than WWWH, so I’m not that worried if a few people decipher the starting point. After all, people have known the starting point for over 5 years (long before me) and it apparently hasn’t done them any good.

          • lol…I’m not even telling my BOTG partner. I wouln’t want to rob him of the joy of figuring it out. (IMO)

          • Zap ~ ‘I think that kind of thinking is going to distract you from success. There are lots of *wrong* WWWHs that can be found throughout the world. There is no requirement for the correct WWWH to be of a type found anywhere else.’

            Um, IF, for example, wwwh is a lake, there should be a lake south of SF. idea.
            If you’re thinking wwwh could be a lake or a river or name etc. that is not specific enough to a reference of what wwwh could be in the poem. That’s guessing 101.

            When fenn made the comment about many WWH in the RM’s… I would think it related to the ‘poem’s reference of what WWH refers to’ and the many of those that are in the mountains N. and S. of SF.

          • Evening Seeker (if you’re still up!): “Um, IF, for example, wwwh is a lake, there should be a lake south of SF. idea.”

            My WWWH is not generic. It’s not a lake, or a hot spring, or a warm spring, or a river, or a reservoir, or a cloud, or a hundred other generic ideas. I think Forrest would say something like, “You’re not thinking the right thoughts” or “You’re not looking at the big picture.”

            “When fenn made the comment about many WWH in the RM’s… I would think it related to the ‘poem’s reference of what WWH refers to’ and the many of those that are in the mountains N. and S. of SF.”

            I will reiterate that my WWWH has no analog south of Santa Fe in the United States. This is why I recommended against excluding WWWH’s that can’t be found south of Santa Fe. Forrest made no such exclusion. IMO he was addressing the pantheon of WWWH ideas that searchers have manufactured over the last 8 years — examples of most of which are found north of Santa Fe, but not necessarily exclusively. He has never said HIS specific WWWH is of a type that could also be found south of Santa Fe.

          • Zap,

            *All* the clues must be solved in order; WWWH and home of Brown are not adjacent, consecutive clues in my opinion.

            Just to clarify, I never said they were adjacent, I only used those two as points of reference in the poem specially because we have more comments from ff on those 2 than we do on canyon down and tftw. But for our discussions if we are talking about the correct hoB we should assume that wwwh, everything in between, clues or hints, including the ‘Put in’ should’ve been solved.

            Anyway, what I’m trying to explore is the WHY MUST we solve the clues in order as per the heavily repeated instructions from Forrest. There has to be a more logical answer to that dilema than just say it is much easier to find wwwh on a map than it is the hoB. That was all…

          • Well, this is certainly an interesting conversation.

            My search season ended several weeks ago, when I returned to the classroom at the end of August. So I’m looking at 2019 before being able to return, assuming the treasure is still out there waiting next year. We’ll see …

  17. Twingem,
    Dont have the quote handy. But in a question/ answer about whether it’s possible to solve all the clues at home, he said, “in theory, yes” but then something about needing to actually be at the location to retrieve the TC. And, in another quote he has said that you wont know you solved the first clue until you find the TC.

    • Agreed. The TC pretty much *is* the proof of a correct solve. Without it, all you have is a theoretical solve that may or may not be correct. I know of no way to get that proof without BOTG. People who try to get a confirmation or refutation of a solve out of Forrest have a tendency to walk away frustrated. There are no shortcuts.

  18. What if for each if the quotes noted above, the final solve provides the verbal explanation of how all statement are 100% true, yet do not require botg?

    I really think this is 100% arm chair solve.

    • Ok, so how about a chase community challenge to get things moving toward completion.

      1. Provide any quote you can find from Forrest that you feel means botg are required and I will explain how he wasn’t saying what most translate; and/or

      2. Get a direct, written quote from Forrest that this is not an armchair treasure hunt that has no botg required to complete a 100% accurate solve.

      Convince me, please! You’d be doing me a favor.

      • Twingem, I’m not sure this is a favor to you, sorry in advance.

        As far as quotes, I’m not the best at those. But, if I summarized many of Mr. Fenn’s quotes here is what they have meant to me – Armchair it in the beginning, because you want to have a “plan” and some confidence; don’t just go out and picnic and think you will stumble upon the TC; but at some point you will need all of your senses to “retrieve” the treasure and that’s why I titled my book TTOTC.

        I think there are many searchers who believe the poem reveals gps coordinants or something like that which would deliver the X on the map. That’s the highest level of “going with confidence” and many searchers believe the poem leads to the blaze and that’s a lower level of confidence but still a high degree. So if the GPS community is right you can armchair it to 100% location solved (in theory). But, without BOTG, you will not retrieve, see, or ever know if your theory is correct. Like I stated earlier, sorry not helping much. Best of luck either way, Jeff

        • awesome Jeff! I fully agree you need all six senses to get to the final coordinates. My final coordinates area derived only using the poem combines mathematically long plus lat) to xxx.xxxxxx. Highly precise.

          See my post below on botg thoughts.

          • Shannon Utz, if you see this and want to go BOTG to my solve, please contact me. I’ve watch folks carefully and would like you to take the baton. Why? I will never be desirous of “excavation” so to speak (aka retrieval alone) because I physically can’t risk it. My spine is crumbling and even a trip and fall could paralyze me. Moving 8 years od debris … Not happening. So, care for both with you fiancee?

            The chase is not a team sport imo. The “I” in the first stanza is the finder I believe. I believe I’ve found it but need an able bodied person or two I feel would do well by it.

    • Evening, Twingem! Can’t say I’m overly interested in getting the entire Chase community on the right track, but I’ll at least address your two-point challenge:

      “1. Provide any quote you can find from Forrest that you feel means botg are required and I will explain how he wasn’t saying what most translate”

      I’m only going to throw out one ATF that’s relevant because that’s all it takes:

      “How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Another way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?)” (Posted on Dal’s site on 2/27/2017, but interview was from May 2015).

      Fenn’s reply: “All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.”

      My analysis: if in theory you actually have any hope of solving all the clues from home (as this ATF seems to suggest), then it tells me that nearly all of them CAN be solved from home. And if THAT is true, then I certainly wouldn’t leave home without having solved most of them.

      Personally I think every clue can be solved from home. BUT! Solving all the clues doesn’t necessarily mean you’ll know precisely where you need to go.

      “2. Get a direct, written quote from Forrest that this is not an armchair treasure hunt that has no botg required to complete a 100% accurate solve.”

      There is no such quote. But I’m confident no one can provide precise coordinates to the treasure chest’s location just sitting on their caboose at home. A physical, on-scene presence is required.

      • HI Zap,

        Yes, that answer confirms that all nine clues can be solved from home – an armchair hunt. However, from my own many, many botg experiences – seeing things aling the path to my final solve were 100% key to my confidence to keep going in my area, as well as when and where to halt (41 longitude).

        Seeing a very old, brown cabin at the trail head with a sign “cow camp” (no place for the meek) at the trail head above where I put in was key. Seeing the initials “JF” on the sign and a triangle like pg 99 nearly made me pee my pants. Researching and finding that the land owner in the area, once upon a time, was named Brown certainly gave me pause.

        So yes, the reason Forrest say “in theory” I believe is because by going botg, you gain the confidence that you are in tge rught area.

        And while I have yet to gain possession of a physical bronze, I have been botg to the exact spot and have photos of GPS with final coordinates. I have some physical disabilities, and I cannot do a thorough search alone. No takers to search with me.

        That said, I kind feel the person will be his heir, or will be provided the chest after proof of the correct solve. After all, this answers how Forrest. will know if its found, why Forrest has been so involved (banking on searcher not neing avle to keep it quiet), and why he feels there will be no question of ownership for the finder.

        So, there’s that….

        • Hi Twingem: when you think about it, an armchair treasure hunt is the only kind that a cash-strapped, out-of-state searcher has any hope of solving. Such a person can’t afford to make a hundred BOTG trips to the Rockies. That’s one of the reasons I’ve always believed that most of the clues must be solvable from home.

          “Seeing a very old, brown cabin at the trail head with a sign “cow camp” (no place for the meek) at the trail head above where I put in was key. Seeing the initials “JF” on the sign and a triangle like pg 99 nearly made me pee my pants. Researching and finding that the land owner in the area, once upon a time, was named Brown certainly gave me pause.”

          It is interesting how people can be quite different regarding the things they find to be significant. I place a lot of importance on clues being survivable for centuries and so I have never used physical structures of any kind in my solutions. But I know many others believe that the “no structures” comment only applies to the treasure chest’s location. Everyone has a unique perspective…

          • Here is an example if Forrest humor:

            1. I felt like an artictect…. 2. The blueprint is challenging….
            3. Marry the poem to the map…
            4. Follow the clues in order…

            Yet no structure?

            I think we need to get out of out own way.

            I try to get out of my iwn way everyday.

            And the 1000 years thing is hysterical as understand it. What a beautiful rabbit hole that has proved to be.

            Forrest wanted this solved in his lifetime. No other reasin for him to have been so involved and constantly trying to teach us how to unlock the poem.

            But, I don’t have the chest….yet

  19. Replying to something way up-thread…

    Ken, RE: “You cannot solve the problem by starting in the middle of the poem. You should start with the first clue and then solve the other eight in order.” A Fenn quote I think.
    Oz10, RE: “It is easy to say that the only reason this was said is that if we don’t have the right location for wwwh we won’t be able to locate/see the next clues from there.”

    PRECISELY…. you can’t begin at the WWH place unless you know WHERE it is…. in fact, the very first word after BEGIN is WHERE ….. so maybe stop thinking that the whole WWWH is the first clue, only the WHERE is the first clue to be found, ….. Tricky wording but not invalid. After you get to the WHERE, you can look for WARM WATERS HALT …….. and even those 3 words may have qualifiers between them. But first you have to find the WHERE, and I think that is hinted at in Stanza 5, is refined in stanza 6 (hear, listen) and refined even more in stanza 1 (and hint). I won’t expand on that yet with the geographical & logical possibilities.

    Of course I may be totally wrong, probably am, but I try to be open to a new lines of thinking, relax old word clumps and go word-by-word. Happy Trails. OS2.

    • OS2…I get it. We are very likely driving home the same point. The approaches are just from a different angle. I actually appreciate your input/angle…because it does have merit.

    • OS2,

      But where do we find where?
      We have;
      In there
      Keep my secret where
      Begin it where
      From There?

      Then we have Brave and “in” the Wood… seems like a good place to look for, right? I think it’s interesting that stanza 6 is really the only stanza that is actually in present tense.

      Stanza one, As I have gone… past tense
      Stanza two, Begin it where… as possibly; Once upon a while… past tense
      Stanza three doesn’t really have a tense unless involved with stanza 2 then we may have those two stanzas still in past tense with stanza 1.
      Stanza four lol, still in past tense, If you’ve “been wise and found”
      Stanza 5 is of the same; The answers I “already know”.. “done it”… “Tired” [ past tense ].
      Stanza 6 is about the only stanza in present tense… which seems to be saying “in the wood” is where to be. The question is; is this where the clues are, or ‘only’ the chest?

      Just rambling and rumbling…

      • Seeker, I think you find WHERE in the poem, in Stanza 5…… (first posted somewhere way up this thread). I think it is the default hint, forced to surface by the seductive but sterile Q&A construct. Who doesn’t like the subtle invitation to figure out the masters question and his answer(s)?
        As I said, I could very well be wrong… but I think others may benefit from trying some new architecture of the sentences.
        I have no idea where you are going with all the jumping tenses and other “ramblings.” OS2.

        • The idea is where in time, OS2.
          That would lead one to think that “in the wood” may hold information for ‘Where” wwh in the present tense or today.
          For example; If WWH stop by not being waters in the present time… where and when were they waters on the past, line of thinking. In the wood might be helpful in this manner of thinking.

          • Seeker…. I have no idea how to answer your question. The “Where in time?” questions you ask are too large & vague for simple answers. The only time frame the poem presents is the time of “riches old and new” and thats what I have to work with.

            Let me also add something about the Socratic questioning technique. Socrates did not ask incessant questions to glean answers from the students, but to lead students to the answers he already knew. So why don’t you lay down some of your own ideas instead of always asking for ours? Posit an idea, analyze it, defend your analysis. It helps to grasp the difference between why and how.

            I’ll pare down and paraphrase a lovely paragraph I found in Osborn Russell’s journal…. ‘In the absence of knowledge, supposition steps forward, and wonder is put to the test.’

            Good luck. OS2

          • OS,
            “Hint of riches new and old” does seem to have a ring of past and present, right?

            “Time” is easy to understand if we allow our imagination walk us through it.

            Why would fenn say a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help?

            While geography is the study of the land etc. it always involves time, or over time. Example studying YS as a super volcano vs. YS as having special habitation of certain plants and animals.
            To know about the volcano side of YS we need to look into the past… and we study that by seeing the present. One works hand and hand with the other.

            As I stated in another post… the poem seems to be referring to past tense throughout the first 5 stanzas.
            “Gone alone”
            “Begin it where” as I think, is the same as suggestion, tftw and once upon a while as time related or in the past.
            Been wise and found.. past tense. etc etc.
            Yet in stanza 6 it states; If you “are” brave and in the wood… a present tense understanding… can in the wood refer to other sections of the poem that relate to “In there” “begin it where” “from there” [possibly all past tense]… to.. “and go in peace” [present tense – after the chest has been discovered]
            “In” the wood could relate to go “in” peace as a location.

            One example could be; in the wood as a mountain passage [ saddle of a mountain, idea ], Creek as a narrow passage [ rather than a waterway ] and Peace Park as represented by each clue and/or piece of information, for a location.
            I mean Waterton lake fits nicely for the idea of; ‘Just’ HLnWH. It also fits nicely for how the lake was created in the past…WWH. A glacier made lake from a 2-3 mile tall ice sheet. {sounds like HLnWH to me as well} I mean, can two clues [or all the clues ] be of the same place only separated by the idea of New and Old-?- past and present?

            Clues/information matching each other through time in the past and in the present, line of thinking… give up a single location.
            But if all this is, is a stomping from point to point or driving out clues… the above theory won’t work for ya.

      • FWIW, all of the nine sentences in the poem are pretty much in present tense, Seeker, not past.

        1 – I CAN KEEP and (I CAN) HINT because I’ve done such and such.

        2 – (you) BEGIN IT and TAKE IT

        3 – (you) PUT IN

        4 – IT IS NO PLACE, THE END IS DRAWING; THERE WILL BE NO

        5 – if you’ve been such and such, (you) LOOK QUICKLY DOWN, (you) TARRY SCANT, (you) TAKE THE CHEST and (you) GO

        6 – why IS IT I MUST GO and LEAVE

        7 – I KNOW THE ANSWER(S)

        (8 and 9 are both in stanza 6, which you already acknowledge as present tense)

        • Well, if you’re going to add words to the stanzas, I guess we can make it what we want it to be.

          But all of stanza 1 is of past tense… something done. It does matter if the words say “I can keep my secret where” we still need to know when and when was “have gone” past tense. If we continue from stanza one into stanza two… it ‘can’ relate to a past tense line.

          The problem I see with many solves is, ya’ll concentrate on stanzas 2 3 4.
          If only reading those stanzas is the way to go… then sure, there is little reference to “when”… well, expect for “And hint of riches knew and old.” Which could translate / be interpreted as; knowledge [riches] of the present [new] and past [old]… Thinking in line with geography.
          But stanza one is only an intro… right?

          • Seek –

            I like the idea of completing the thought for each line:

            progress
            river
            alone
            water
            lamb
            on
            bed
            noon
            forth

    • Keep working it OS2! Your thinking is different which could equate to successful. IMO. Jeff

    • Ok Jake, I believe that his final resting place would not be in close proximity to where people go regularly. He said, at least 20 miles from anybody. That means most clues are solved on a map. He has mentioned desert, why? He said when he thought of a place for indulgence he thought of flood and fire. Desert would be a good place. I think we need to find deserts above 5000ft. You being from CO. Do you know of any?

      • “If your solve is in a desert, get a new solve…” That is a direct smack-down from the puzzlemaster.

      • I’ve never read the 20 miles from anybody. Could point me to that quote please. Thanks, Jeff

      • It’s not in a Desert, Fenn has said as much. I believe Brian is right that its not in a location tourists frequent. He planned on dying there and a stinky rotting corpse lying off the trail brings too much attention. You’re welcome to share my national forests as long as you stay at least 20 miles away.

        • Hi Eric,
          I understand that logic. Something to consider, his place is his place. When he first discovered that place it may have been more remote but over time more people go to that area. That’s an assumption, I know. But, my point is the place is the place and he never considered another location. If he discovered it when he was say 13 as an example, over a period of decades the frequency of tourists could change. IMO. Good luck to you. Jeff

        • I now have seen the info about the desert. Thanks guys!! I still feel strong about it being far from anyone.

  20. Lets mess with the poem. Halt and walk don’t rhyme. Begin it where warm waters. Halt and correct the poem. Next letter after W in Walk Is X. Begin it where warm waters Cross
    each other. Well there is nothing that rhymes with halt or walk that will work.
    JUST posting humor. No ones listing just like my solves. I wondered why he said don’t
    mess with my poem. Maybe he was reading the blogs and saw people doing that.
    Maybe it was a hint. Ok back to the rabbit holes.

  21. Trying to contribute to the bronze box retrieval. I’m running out of options given my physical limitations.

    Gut feeling = 106.

    Ninth (65) clue (41) = 106.

    The “people lose their mind when the realize the brilliance of Forrest’s words all these years” is that the final and correct solve, imo, boils down to: latitude 65 and longitude 41.

    65 + 41 = 106. Hence gut feeling…and it was discovered this summer btw. Now what do i mean by it?

    I have no chest, so I’m likely just a loon, however.

    • Twingem,
      I (we) enjoy your posts, so please don’t stop. Myself,
      Far from being the sharpest tack on the block,, I may be missing something with your Lat 65, Long 41. Givem the irregular shape of thr Rockies, and the designated search boundaries,
      I think one could still draw an
      irregular shaped trapezoidal
      quadrangle,,, with about 35.8 N lat. as a southern boundary and
      approx 49 deg N lat (Canadian border) as the most norherly search lat., with widespread long(s) from 104.5 d W (NM west of I-25) to 116 d west, the W. MT. border.
      So,,, help me out to better understand your ciphering.
      Thanks, BATTY

      • TWIN,,
        PS hmmmm
        fooling around with your numbers…… If i use 41 deg lat, and 106 deg long. that puts one real close to the Laramie R. @ the CO/WY line. In fact near a drainage called Maggie crk.
        (… “wake up Maggie…”)
        Maggie>Margret>Peggy
        but i don’t think it qualifies for being in the Snowy Range. oh well

        • I like this…not sure how twin g got to those numbers (assuming some sort of letter/number swap/cipher), I had some previous ideas about HOB possibly being ‘the state’ of Wyoming…so put in below would be the state line with CO. We know FF drove through the state a bunch, between his 19-20 years of school summers spent in West and his recent revelation in the 2006 BB museum interview that he’s been to Wyoming ‘every year’ except for the year his father got his masters degree, even when he was stationed in Germany, and we know FF knows how far Santa Fe NM to Cody Wy is, point is, FF has probably seen a lot of roadside scenery in Wyoming…so here is a new thought Twingem sparked for me this morning…this idea that ‘the state’ is the HOB came from my childhood memories of the old ‘gold and brown’ license plates, the ‘cowboy’ was always brown…also the U of Wyo…brown and gold…another possibility…anyway…this morning it occurred to me that indeed ‘the state’ as the HOB could work if we consider those roadside signs at the borders welcoming you…here is my fun new thought…anyone who has driven into Colorado knows their welcome slogan…’Welcome to COLORFUL Colorado’…WHATIF, the ‘diabolically opposed’ to ‘colorful’ is ‘brown’?…Wyoming’s signs used to say ‘Welcome to Wonderful Wyoming’…and were always Brown, interestingly, Colorado’s signs are still all Brown with white lettering, so maybe it is the Colorado border signs we need to put in below of?

          Here are some other CO/WY border rabbit holes for those interested…in the above scenario, obvious question is what is the WWWH that leads you to the border? My best one, and I don’t think this is unique is the Great Divide Basin…while there are many basins N of S.Fe, this one is special…especially on a map…no flowing surface water leaves the basin’s boundaries. Anyway, deciding on a ‘canyon down’ seems to have some issues, along with being ‘in the desert’. Anyway, so I started looking at other things near CO/WY border…any Wyo searchers owe it to themselves to check out the Ames Monument between Cheyenne and Laramie just off I-80…very cool history, but also interesting link to items in the TC. Another possibility with ‘the state’ being HOB is the state flag has the buffalo on it…I think this was a pretty old idea (not mine). And finally, sorry for rambling…but for Twingem…that area you pinpointed…there is indeed a bison ranch just south…another possible HOB…all IMO IMO IMO.

          • OK, I guess that area that BATTY figured out…near the Laramie river, there is/was a bison ranch just south of the border. Also, that road that connects back to CO14/poudre canyon at Cameron Pass is super pretty, highly recommend it.

          • Here is an example if Forrest humor:

            1. I felt like an artictect…. 2. The blueprint is challenging….
            3. Marry the poem to the map…
            4. Follow the clues in order…

            Yet no structure?

            I think we need to get out of out own way.

            I try to get out of my iwn way everyday.

            And the 1000 years thing is hysterical as understand it. What a beautiful rabbit hole that has proved to be.

            Forrest wanted this solved in his lifetime. No other reasin for him to have been so involved and constantly trying to teach us how to unlock the poem.

            But, I don’t have the chest….yet

      • My solve is based on a triangulation three higly specific gps coordinates arrived at and confirmed by the poem – supported by Forrest’s words, stories and books. I used the poem/book first and foremost, a good map (map of the universe: periodic table), logic (math), imagination in large doses, and Google Earth to find my first clue. While my path has been long and full of adventure, my ending location is so obvious in retrospect. Isn’t that how life is!

        Some examples of imagination, book, poem, GE, math in my solve. In one respect, the blaze is the second time Forrest was shot down, flight 327. In another respect, it is 79 (gold on the periodic table). And in yet another respect it is the title he gives us (202). Forrest us banking on human nature and the need for one path to a correct solve. There are so many paths to the correct solve it takes patience to make all the lines cross at the final and correct location.

        Now, since I don’t have the chest, this is all my opinion. But isn’t that the case everything any one says anything? So I won’t put callouses on IMO as a share my solve.

        And I’ve been thinking…my solve and path taken to arrive is so different than anything I’ve seen and read, I must be in the top 1% of crazy, or brilliant. So I’m not afraid of anyone coming after me for the chest. If they do, remember, I’m the top 1% of crazy. so come at me at your own risk

  22. Here is something for all to think about. If I were to rest my body 20 miles from anybody. You would have to make your solve on a map, at home before you leave…

    • Hi Brian,

      IMO, he didn’t secret the treasure 20 miles from anybody. That reference to my knowledge is a reference from a chapter in Mr. Fenn’s book “too far to walk”. but, linking that 20 mile distance to Indulgence may not be a solid hint. Not saying it isn’t but many searchers theories do not interpret the 20 mile reference in that way.

      Again, all IMVHO. Best of luck on the chase, Jeff

    • Ken: I was thinking the same thing — JDA’s been MIA for a few days now.

      Last day of summer. Anyone searching today?

      • Zap…I am searching every day. I believe Fenn’s stomach issue will start to act up again soon….

      • Yes, yesterday and today, turned from fog to wanting to rain to sunny as I arrived, and sunny today, so turned out to be good days, but bad solution looks like. looked good on paper. don’t they all.

    • Well, you guys guessed right. Tess (My wife) and I made one more trip – #24. – NADA. I feel that I am VERY close, but just can’t land on that spot.

      Back to the poem, back to the SB’s and ATF’s to figure out what I am missing. As always, coming home I thought of something that I may have missed – so the dream is still alive. Maybe trip #25 will be the one. Do not
      know when that will be.

      At 76, and a bad heart, going alone (like I did this last trip) is NOT wise. I have to wait for at least one member of my team. Had I found it, there is NO way I could have retrieved it and brought it down the mountain from where I was. I am just too old for that! Still Dreamin’ – JDA

      • Hopefully next time!

        I personally would have loved to have searched today but I would rather try and go for a week instead of a rushed in-out trip (as I have been doing that this whole summer without luck). I also feel like you JDA where I feel like I realize something new when I get home.

        I did at least pick up a nice painting from Goodwill of the St. Francis Church in Ranchos De Taos. The print appears to be a really nice reproduction of this one (enough that it seems to be a direct copy of the original):
        http://teachers.phillipscollection.org/artwork/ranchos-church-no-ii-nm

        • Good luck to you in your search(s) – Nice pick-up at the Goodwill. Hang in there, maybe your AH-HA after your last search will pay off – JDA

          • If not, I am at least getting close to eliminating that area and can move on to something hopefully closer to home.

  23. Seeker—- I am re-posting something from above. It is so far up there you might miss it:

    Seeker—-

    I know this will sound like I know something other people don’t know (lol—true of so many huh?) but I really do have a very valid reason that I cannot share why I believe the poem STARTS with stanza 5 and ends with stanza 4.

    Several months ago I posted an article—it wasn’t a “solve”—just a series of things I had seen in the poem, and questions that they raised. It was called “FISHIN’” https://dalneitzel.com/2018/05/11/fishin_1/ (If you care to read it once again here it is).

    Most likely I will be sharing part 2 of this article as I have grown weary once again of this Chase, and want to make a final break with it. The only way to do that is to share what I think are some very important aspects of the poem—-one of them being that you start with Stanza 5. When I share this you will understand why I state this. I am confident that I am correct in this matter—whether it leads to a “solve” or is a MAJOR step in solving the poem I really don’t know.

  24. Sorry to bring this up again….Little Indy

    “I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun.”

    Is it possible that Forrest was telling us that the first two clues are the most Northerly ones? The closest physically to India on a globe? And that as long as Indy is in India those will always be the closest to her.

      • Hi Fennatical, yes that’s what I was trying to figure out but I used the ruler in Google Earth and assumed it would minimize the Great Circle distance. It’s been so long since I’ve seen an actual globe I wouldn’t know where to find one. Isn’t the shortest distance to India nearly directly North from the Rockies? I’ll see if I can find another tool to verify.

  25. I have taken F’s “redneck” comment to heart. Here are three things I’ve pulled from the first two lines by drawling/slurring the words a little as I say them (no offense meant to rednecks from TX by the drawl/slur comment):

    have gone –> hab’ gone –> Hebgen.
    As I have gone –> ‘s I ‘ave ‘gon –> Saigon
    in there And –> in ‘der an’ –> in ‘da an’ –> Indian.

    I’ve seen other people mention homophones, but haven’t really seen beyond that. I was wondering if anyone has made a list of things like the above?

    Also, does anyone believe that something like this might be in the right direction?

    • That is very possible! Those could be clues right there. Start WWWH, follow next six in order. Then yours. It could work…..

    • I believe there are homophones and FF has said he uses words in the dictionary and others that arent. But your idea takes it a step too far IMO. Mostly because FF has said the words mean what they say. So I think that creating new words entirely is messing with the poem. But in my book, as long as a homophone sounds the same but has different meaning, that falls under the “hear me all” and “listen good”. But then Im not holding the TC and some others think homophones are out of bounds.

      • Thanks for the response flutterby. I kind of agree it could be taking it too far. Here’s the possibility I was leaning toward. What if Hebgen is WWWH or HOB – by “hearing” it earlier in the poem, it could be a confirmation or lead me to a clue. Or Indian – maybe it’s pointing to Shoshone something, or an Indian Creek. Saigon is skipping too many syllables, but I don’t want to drop “Hebgen” for “Have gone” just yet.

        • misfit22,
          I think if you have an idea, you should work it through until you can either solve the poem or you find that your idea does not work. I think way too many people give up on a good idea before they think it through thoroughly and follow it through to its conclusion. Go for it!

  26. Hi SRW,
    Stealing from your post above, finding the state/location in the poem. Can we find a state in the poem? That surely will be of great help. There are only four states and six stanzas in the poem, we only have 24 combinations there to focus on. Or we can narrow it down even more if we assume that stanzas 3 and 4 are really the meat of finding the hidey spot so the state info could only be within stanzas 1,2,5,6 leaving us with 16 combinations.

    I could also say that the second stanza may be part of the meaty 3 and 4 and for now we leave that one for last. So now we have stanzas 1,5 and 6 to match to 4 states, only 12 combinations. We start in order by distance from ff -NM, CO, WY, MT- and with the first stanza.

    How would Forrest hide a State within a stanza? If specialized knowledge is not needed like the history of the state and/or its peoples, tribes or ancient civilizations, no coordinates or GPS, the state flag, etc… I can think of two ways, one will be the states’ unique geographical attributes only because he told us a ‘comprehensive knowledge of geography will help’; the second and most simple one being just the name of the state. If is there, it will not be a cipher but a riddle. This sounds reasonable???

    Who can find New Mexico in the first stanza? if not, then CO, WY or MT?

      • Hi JDA,

        I have seen you post that before and I am intrigued by that one. You seem to have a deeper understanding of that line than most.

        I have always taken a simple approach to that line to mean you were off trail somewhere in a park or forest maybe a place which would truly take a little courage. Not dangerous really but still not for the meek.

        I can understand if you do not elaborate but I have at least ask the question. Can you elaborate on “in the wood”? Jeff

        • Sorry – Not just yet, other than to say, as I have said many times before – “In the wood” has a very obscure definition that will take you to a geographical location in Wyoming. Once there, it is relatively easy to locate WWWH – and down the canyon you go – ultimately (I hope) to Indulgence – JMO – JDA

      • @JDA, me thinks it’s a dead ‘dog’ not a horse! 60,000 plus searchers, who knows how many bloggers on here and you are the only one teasing us with your obscure definition of ‘wood’ that leads you to some place in WY! No one else on here has every shared this good word about wood! The TC may very well be in WY and good luck to you finding it but IMHO the search is over at the blaze and the last two stanzas are conclusions. One of these days I’ll go to the library and search for your word in a dictionary of obscure words! I truly enjoy all the sharing on here, thanks JDA, Seeker, Zap et al!

        • Cholly;

          You say: ” No one else on here has every shared this good word about wood! ”

          That is not a true statement. Recently another searcher disclosed what my obscure definition was, but it seemed to go under the radar. Just sayin’ JDA

      • Thanks JDA, we know you search Wyoming. Anything in the first stanza that points there? Only if you want to share…

        • Not that I know of. Stanza #1 tells me to look “in there” once I figure out the general area to look. For me stanza #1 is a prelude – setting the stage so-to-speak. JMO – JDA

    • Oz10,

      All IMVHO, a reasonable person could do some research on the Bozeman Chronicle and the FLYWATER chapter in TTOTC and narrow to the state level with stanza 1.

      In fact, after 8 years, some searchers may have done that and still remain unsuccessful for what that’s worth. But, in theory, I believe it is possible. Best of luck, Jeff

      • Jeff; I think that the Flywater chapter is a summary of sorts. It paints the “Big Picture” in a way. Not sure that it tells the reader which state Indulgence is secreted in, but it does tell a lot about how Forrest thinks, and what is important to him. JMO – JDA

    • Morning OZ10,

      Your post above is very well thought out. Lots for us to think about. Thanks…I like it.

      You mentioned the meaty Stanzas. For me my meat lies within Stanzas 2,3,4 and 6. So the rest of my information comes from Stanzas 1 and 5. I cannot imagine Fenn providing the most basic starting information, such as state, location or a general area to start with, way down in Stanza 5. Finding or learning that information that far into the poem would fall into a trickery or subterfuge category for me. IMO.

      We have also been told that the clues are contiguous and should be followed in order (paraphrasing). How can we ever do that? I mean are we really supposed to work our way through almost all of the clues, contiguously and in order, only to find the starting information buried clear down in Stanza 5? That just doesn’t make any sense to me at all. IMO.

      You said: How would Forrest hide a State within a stanza? If specialized knowledge is not needed like the history of the state and/or its peoples, tribes or ancient civilizations, no coordinates or GPS, the state flag, etc… I can think of two ways, one will be the states’ unique geographical attributes only because he told us a ‘comprehensive knowledge of geography will help’; the second and most simple one being just the name of the state. If is there, it will not be a cipher but a riddle. This sounds reasonable???

      Who can find New Mexico in the first stanza? if not, then CO, WY or MT?

      I don’t think that any of us needs any specialized knowledge. But Forrest did say that we do need to think. So I do think that some basic knowledge is probably in order. A little logic generally goes a long ways too. IMO.

      Also, my state can be found in Stanza 1 and I like that you called it a riddle. Maybe that is the riddle in the poem that we are supposed to solve? The answer is not spelled out in the poem . You do have to think. You have to learn. Plus, I think Forrest has thrown a bunch of hints about the starting state and location in his many question and answers, Interviews and ATF’s, etc. IMO.

      Anyways, just a few thoughts for the day.

      All IMO.

      SRW

      • SRW;

        You say: “We have also been told that the clues are contiguous and should be followed in order (paraphrasing). How can we ever do that? I mean are we really supposed to work our way through almost all of the clues, contiguously and in order, only to find the starting information buried clear down in Stanza 5? That just doesn’t make any sense to me at all. IMO.”

        Forrest also says: “: “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f

        “and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every word.” If one does this, reads the poem multiple times, and studies every word – you MAY have found my obscure definition BEFORE you start with the first clue – “Begin it where warm waters halt…” You are not solving most of the clues and THEN finding what is needed to “Begin it where…” You have STUDIED FIRST – then start thew solving of the clues AFTER you know the many definitions of EVERY words – then choose the right one as you solve.

        From here – you solve the clues contiguously/consecutively.

        Forrest lays it out pretty clearly – at least for me – JMO – JDA

        • Morning JDA,

          One of your quotes from Fenn above includes this line: – study every line, every word.

          This is exactly how I have decided to tackle this poem. One line at a time and one word at a time. This is how I’ve chosen my location of where I think the treasure lies.

          It is likely that each one of us will have a uniquely different understanding of what Stanza 1 might mean. And for me, Stanza 1 is where I begin to understand exactly what it is that I am looking for. Stanza 1 also tells me exactly where I should start looking for it. I personally don’t use “in the wood” as my beginning place, because that information, from Stanza 6, is applicable more to my ending place. Which is the correct way to understand the poem? We won’t know until somebody does find it. But for now, your guess is as good as my guess, is as good as everybody else’s guess. I guess. IMO.

          All IMO.

          SRW

      • Hello SRW,

        You said: I cannot imagine Fenn providing the most basic starting information, such as state, location or a general area to start with, way down in Stanza 5.

        No question about it, I agree with that, and that it is the most logical step to further narrow down to 4 combinations using my guide above. In keeping an open mind about it, I included stanzas 5 and 6 just in case there is a confirmation to the info provided in the first stanza. Maybe, maybe not…

        Also, by not tossing out the last 2 stanzas, I tried not to alienate those who are deeply involved with their understanding of those to OCD levels. I failed on that, talk about missing the forest for the trees. Or is it the woods? Lol…

        I do enjoy finding hidden things in texts, but I have not found any hints that point to any locations or states. The hints I’ve found, all in the ttotc book, point to a methodology regarding words and their meanings, nothing else so far.

        Give me one ATF comment from ff that you believe contains a solid hint in relation to a state/location. Not from the poem or the books, just from anything else out there, something to think about…

        • Sure Oz10,

          You asked: Give me one ATF comment from ff that you believe contains a solid hint in relation to a state/location. Not from the poem or the books, just from anything else out there, something to think about…

          Here’s a couple that come to mind. I don’t think that these will give too much away. I hope.

          Here’s the entire question and answer from MW Q&A, April, 2016:

          Forrest, You said you were able to read the name of the French Fallen soldier along with the poem in English below the name, but you never reveal the name in the book.

          What was the name of this soldier? I been researching this and it might be impossible and may be no reverence to your poem. My thought is you would want this person remembered like you would want to be remembered. ~Shannon

          Heck Shannon, you just widened one of my largest fault lines. In my haste to get back to the helicopter and leave that place, my effort was expended trying to remember the inscription, and I repeated it over and over. In that process the soldier’s name was not retained.

          All I remember is that his last name had an x in it.

          Is it strange that I would remember that? But there are no regrets because now he is my personal Unknown Soldier whose lack of identity stands as a metaphor for all men and women who fell in that ugly war and have now faded from our memory. f

          Here’s another portion of one of Fenn’s quotes (sorry, can’t find the whole quote): …the treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all of the lines cross in the right spot. f.

          And another snippet that Fenn has said: “I’m not going to put an “x” on the map for you”. f.

          Now, going back to the poem, because all of the information that you need is in the poem. Take another look at the hint, that Fenn has provided in Stanza 1, for all to see. Seems pretty clear to me. IMO.

          Hope that helps, but not too terribly much…LOL.

          All IMO.

          SRW.

          • SRW, you killed me with those long answers from ff, I thought you were going for the one or two liners… But thanks I will study those to see if I can find some similarities.

          • Oz10

            LOL…I learned the long answer thing from Seeker (just kidding). Good luck with the similarities. They are there. Plus more to be found in those few quotes, I think. IMO.

            SRW

          • SRW: if what you’re getting at is the “new and old” in Stanza 1 plus X being the only letter missing from the poem, you’re obviously angling for the one state of the four that has an X in its name (with bonus points for Forrest’s home state being the only other one).

            Unfortunately, similar decent arguments can be made for the other three states.

          • Hi Zap,

            What you said is true. But there are also many other reasons that I am looking where I am looking. I didn’t want to spill all of my beans in one spilling.

            You also said: Unfortunately, similar decent arguments can be made for the other three states.

            This is also true. It does help to explain why all four states are still in play. But in the end, three of the states are going be the wrong states. To your point, Ray Henry, just this morning, posted some great points in regards to Montana being the place to be. Who knows? But we gotta start somewhere. I’ve chosen to start where I think the poem is telling me to start. That’s the best I can do. But everybody else has to pick their own place to start. I feel like at least I know why I’ve started where I’ve started. That’s been half the battle for me. IMO.

            All IMO.

            SRW

        • Dear OZ10–

          IMO………The key word also points to a very specific location.

          That word is…. WHY

          Of course, that is why it is the key word! The leprechauns told me so!

          Best regards;

          Sherif Billy and the deputy

          • Sherif, WHY are you going there? Wyoming or West Yellowstone? Anything in the first stanza that points there?

          • OZ 10–

            WHY is the place. It even says it in the poem. …..So WHY…is it that I must go….

            And just between you and me….(WHY) means the place the son of the man who lives in the swamp. But keep that under yur hat …(It’s a secret) Please don’t tell anyone else or the place will be crowded with searchers. The leprechauns told me that when then don’t have their gold at the end of the rainbow, they bury it in a swamp. I always said there were leprechauns in the solve. If you dont believe in leprechauns i cant blame you. Then Id ask the Gypsies…… and for Dal….IMO

            Now where’s my deputy
            Best regards;

            Billy

    • Oz,

      Why would knowing a state or it’s flag, history about something etc. be considered ‘special’ knowledge? Don’t ya think we might be pushing the idea to the cliff’s edge a bit…

      I mean, special, in my mind would mean ‘advance / high level’ knowledge of any particular subject. We all know math, some better than others, and I dare say fenn has had to use math in many avenues of his life… so why couldn’t some of the process of the solve involve math? [for example]

      The other thing, that I see, that I just don’t understand, is the idea a type of hint or information within the poem must be in order as well. I ask why? Why would stanza one be the only place to find [ for example ] a state? Why can’t a later stanza hold that info, then we go there and utilize the 9 clues?

      So here is a WhatIF… did fenn tells us what we need to solve the clues?
      I’ll give my example, again, of Tarry Scant… possibly… to be Tarry Point [ 9 point circle ] ~ math!
      Is it possible the hint or clue or piece of information within the poem is telling us; you need to figure this out by doing it this, have all the lines cross, idea. SO, what IF we don’t know that particular Equation [ basically it just triangulation on steroids ] Is there any reason we can’t learn it? or any other ‘lesson’ being told of..IF.. it is implied in the poem?

      Folks talk about the two books mentioned in TTOTC. they say they have found clues in those books… not my cup of tea but ok… Yet, WhatIF fenn is telling us we need to read those books? Is that considered ‘special knowledge’?

      Fenn tells us; we need to ‘learn’ WWH. Tells us; “comprehensive knowledge of geography might help”
      Well, IF we need to learn anything we normally [ in general ] wouldn’t know of by the masses… is ‘that’ special knowledge?

      “All the information to find the chest is in the poem” Right?
      15 years of dedication went into it to get it just right.
      fenn tells us he ‘followed’ the clues ‘when’ he hid the chest… clues that he created, in an area he knows like the back of his hand. Why would he need or bother following the clues.. ANY of them?
      Might it be, because he had to do exactly as we are told? He had to “complete (completed?)” {use} the clues to get to the “hidey spot”

      See, I don’t think fenn had a specific 10″ sq spot to leave the chest. I think he had to create that spot ‘within’ his ‘special place’.. so he created clues from memory of the special place and found a spot [using his own created clues] and hid the chest, at that spot. This is one reason i think… “certainty of the location beforehand” is essential to; knowing where the clues are. For me, that is not a state, a NP etc. but a much smaller location… his special place… that all the clues are ‘within.’
      Not the idea the clues take you there, line of thinking. [which seems to be what everyone is doing, hoping the clues take us to fenn’s place, rather than knowing where it is beforehand] So, I’ll ask again, are we missing something?

      I think the idea of “What took me so long?” revolves around the idea of having that “certainty of the location ‘beforehand”
      Location meaning; fenn’s special place vs. a 10″ sq hide.
      IMO, if fenn was stand ‘at’ the chest he would see ‘all the clues’… clues he “used” to find a spot to hide the chest.
      *personal note; I think he had to work off the blaze do accomplish the creating of the clues… We’re not looking for a ! 10″ sq spot, imo, we’re looking for a blaze… one that can’t be found without utilizing the other clues in a specific manner… possibly a ‘mathematical map’

      • I think I see what you are getting at Seeker. Maybe the blaze actually points to that 10″ spot – It is the Blaze that is the most important though – HUMMMM??? JDA

      • Hahaha, Seeker can’t you just answer the question? Lol
        But seriously, it is okay to explain as we solve the first stanza looking for a state-city-town-location why something is or isn’t specialized knowledge and the reasoning behind it.

        End of commentary…

      • Seeker, you asked about why some think stanza 1 must be where a possible hint is and not stanza 5 or 6. For me at least, it’s not that the hint must be in order too but it could be and is reasonable. That isn’t what differentiates stanza one from 5 and 6 to me. It’s the word “hint” in that stanza that the other 2 don’t have.

        I agree with your statement here: I think he had to work off the blaze to accomplish the creating of the clues.

        In concert with your thought, I think f also worked off an early hint in the poem which is the blaze.

    • Take it in the canyon down. The canyon=Grand Canyon,, Down in the Grand Canyon is Colorado river

    • For those who think that the first stanza (or any stanza) is useless no need to contribute. Forrest comments regarding his poem are out there for everyone to see and easily searchable. 1. He felt like an architect- 2. It is risky to discount any of them- 3. They look like just words there but… etc… etc…

      It took him 15 years to complete, that translates to 2.5 years per stanza regardless if it was on and off over that time. It is kinda insulting to say anything there is useless, unless you have the winning solve with the chest in hand.

    • “How would Forrest hide a State within a stanza?”

      Well, one way could be by references to state mottos and nicknames. Every state has a motto, most states have at least one nickname, and some states have multiple nicknames. For example, my home state of Colorado is known as “The Centennial State”, “Colorful Colorado”, “The Buffalo Plains State”, and “Switzerland of America”, and it’s motto is “Nil sine Numine”, which has been translated as either “Nothing without Providence” or “Nothing without the Deity”.

      Your opinion may differ, but I wouldn’t consider this “specialized knowledge” because most people (okay, most Americans) know at least one nickname for their own state. From there it is just a few moments’ work to think, “What are the nicknames of the other states?” and look them up on Google (or in a good old fashioned encyclopedia). And when you search for nicknames, you get hits on links that mention mottos also. It’s not an obscure thought process limited to a specific occupation or hobby, and doesn’t require days or weeks of research to discover.

      So if I were writing a poem and wanted to hint at Colorado, I might write a couple lines something like:

      As I saw God ride the buffalo
      Across the bridge of a hundred colors,
      […]

      When I look at stanza 1 of Forrest’s poem from that POV, I see a few possible references to each of the search states, but I see a TON of possible references to Montana, and they seem far more relevant to the Chase than the references to other states. Assuming that many states will have at least a few things in common, I would follow the preponderance of evidence and relevancy to Montana. One reference that really persuades me is that Montana is known as “Big Sky Country”. Where did Forrest frequently go “alone in there” as a pilot of small aircraft? Into the big sky. He almost certainly felt alone in there (the sky) when he visually erased an entire city by covering it with his thumb.

      Also, Montana is known as “The Last Best Place”, which sounds like a great place to go to spend your final hours in life before dying next to the treasure chest you just hid in your “secret where” (as Forrest had originally planned to do). And those are just two compelling examples. Many of Montana’s nicknames reference treasure, silver and gold, etc. In fact, “riches new and old” seem to be as big a part of Montana’s identity as its mountains and plains.

      In addition to pointing to a state, I think the first stanza also considerably narrows down our search are for finding WWWH. A well phrased line or stanza can easily have more than one intended meaning, depending on the intentions of the poet.

      I don’t think it is necessary to “jump around” between stanzas to put things together. I think the poem can be understood in a top-down contiguous fashion. By the time you reach the second stanza, you should have all the data you need to understand which WWWH is the correct one.

      It’s also possible that I am way off base and just seeing what I want to see, but you have to start some where.

      • Ray Henry,

        Fantastic points of view! Your analysis definitely helps to explain why everybody is still looking in each of the four states. It is interesting in how we all see things so differently.

        Your example pointing towards Colorado (my home state as well) was very good. I think that is exactly how Fenn crafted the words in his poem! IMO.

        You said: In addition to pointing to a state, I think the first stanza also considerably narrows down our search area for finding WWWH. A well phrased line or stanza can easily have more than one intended meaning, depending on the intentions of the poet.

        I agree with what you said above. There is more to found in Stanza 1 in regards to the starting area, beyond just the state. Yep…I agree. IMO.

        SRW

      • Living in Montana I stick with “The Treasure State” as everything else is to generate tourism. The state flag has Gold and Silver as the motto (Oro y plata).

      • Ray ~’I think the poem can be understood in a top-down contiguous fashion. By the time you reach the second stanza, you should have all the data you need to understand which WWWH is the correct one.’

        OK, what about stanzas 5 and 6?
        They seem useless IF the entire poem is only understood from top to bottom. I mean, the chest is seemingly located in stanza 4… right?
        Two full stanzas [ approx 60 words ] one with a Question and its answers…another say we are ‘in the wood’ yet we shouldn’t consider them because we finished the find in stanza 4?

        Does stanza 1 give us any idea of what wood refer to? What brave is about? Does hearing and listening have anything to do with helping us figure out the poem? You seem to be leaving out a lot of very possible info if we only read top to bottom, no analyzing these stanzas?… cuz it all seems to end at stanza 4… right? Just take the chest and go in peace…

        Heck if that was really the case… we don’t need stanza 1 either… fenn could have written a three stanza poem and may have saved himself 7 years of working on it. LOL it amazes me that some, in the attempt to “try and simplify the clues” dismiss the ideas and suggestions that “every word was deliberate” ..and.. it’s “risky to discount them”… designed by an “Architect”

        • Seeker,

          I didn’t think that Ray Henry was saying that he didn’t need or wasn’t using Stanzas 5 or 6. I could be wrong though.

          But not everybody thinks that the chest has been found by the end of Stanza 4. I certainly don’t.

          Therefore, Stanzas 5 and 6 are still needed, at least in my own solve anyways. I believe that Stanza 1 just gets you started at the right place and in the right state. Discard when done and continue to move forward. There will be more/new information to be gleaned from some of the other lines/information in the poem once you’ve started at the right place . IMO.

          SRW

        • Seeker, you wrote:
          “They seem useless IF the entire poem is only understood from top to bottom. I mean, the chest is seemingly located in stanza 4… right?”

          You then wrote:
          ” LOL it amazes me that some, in the attempt to “try and simplify the clues” dismiss the ideas and suggestions that “every word was deliberate” ..and.. it’s “risky to discount [any of] them”… designed by an “Architect””

          You seem to be addressing a hypothetical but, regardless, the two quotes above are contradictory. IMO, any searcher who believes “every word is deliberate” and it’s “risky to discount any of them” should, and more likely would, deduce that the chest is NOT actually FINDABLE in the fourth stanza due to the simple fact that two stanzas remain unaddressed.

          My polite advice to any searcher who feels the TC is findable in the fourth stanza is to reassess interpretations and deductions through those stanzas and to keep the full comment from Forrest in mind:
          “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them.”

          Note F uses “words” and not “stanzas” in his comment to Phil.

          Too, for those inclined to “renovate” the architects work that was fifteen years in design, there’s this from the Lorene Mills 5/13/2011 interview (link currently not valid – site updates in progress):
          “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order.”

          One definition of consecutive: marked by logical sequence. Note the phrase “logical sequence”, and let’s not forget F’s “Don’t mess with my poem” comment.

          Just rambling.
          Joe

          • I agree Joe,
            The idea that the “solve” or ‘Information” for deciphering purposes don’t stop at stanza 4.
            However, with the idea of a physical search, in the ‘order’ to follow the clues should be within stanzas 2 3 4. Begin it here, end up with the chest and go in peace…

            LOL but I’ll always return to; what is a clue-?- idea… fenn calls everything a clue… not here, not there, above this but not below that, no associated with, etc. Helpful yes, clues? Nope…

      • Hi Ray,

        I especially like you take on “specialized knowledge”. Just because something might not reside within our own brains it doesn’t mean it isn’t something we should take the time to learn a little bit more about.

        I know I’m never going to find Indulgence but there is plenty of treasure to gather along the way. None of us are at the end of runway for learning.

        Your advice to Google things and learn a little bit more is excellent in my opinion. The statement “He Who Teaches a Child Labors with God in His Workshop” should not just be reserved for children. Forrest’s influence on all of us for learning is a wonder to behold.

      • I agree. Idaho is perpetual. Never ending. I understand the chest isn’t there, but it does follow the path from YNP, through WY, in the canyon down, past the HOB.
        Then you hit that end is ever drawing nigh part. Which, by the way, also turns left to cross back over into MT.
        Almost looks like a 20 mile bike path someone would have taken to go their their special place, before reaching the Firehole.
        What do all 4 states, plus Idaho, have in common. The Continental Divide Scenic Trail.
        IMO

  27. Seeker,

    You said: The other thing, that I see, that I just don’t understand, is the idea a type of hint or information within the poem must be in order as well. I ask why? Why would stanza one be the only place to find [ for example ] a state? Why can’t a later stanza hold that info, then we go there and utilize the 9 clues?

    First thing that popped into my head. And in one simple word, just to keep it short and sweet this morning. LOGIC.

    IMO

    SRW

    • Nope, That’s not what I’m suggesting [a pointer]. I think the blaze is the focal point of all the physical clues.
      fenn was asked which direction the blaze points, right?
      I think fenn knew of this blaze [whatever it refers to] and worked off it, designing the clues from it…. rather than… finding a good candidate for WWH then a canyon, then hoB then something else in a linear fashion to the hide or starting at the hide and working backwards.
      IMO the “route” in and out of the location is just that… walk to and from the clues, not through the clues. The blaze will be revealed IF we can see how the clues work in conjunction with it… not so much find it. We need to ‘discover’ it… “wise and found” in this case means ‘discover’ what it is…’knowing’ what it is.

      Theoretically anyways…

      • I am pretty sure that I know what it is Seeker – if one goes back far enough in time. I think that I also understand the relevance of its shape, and what significance that has to Forrest, but I could be wrong. I do think that it serves as a pointer, even if by accident.

        Thanks for the post – Always like reading what you have to say. – JDA

        • How confident are you that you are referring to the same blaze as
          the one mentioned in the poem?

    • Ken,

      What would you be if you were attached to another object by an incline plane wrapped helically around an axis?

      Just being straight forward in all honesty… lol… straight forward doesn’t mean easy, simple, KiSSable, is all I’m saying.

      • Seeker…Fenn answered your question in 2014. Nothing much has changed since then besides a few thousand faces. The idea/s remain comparable…with an exception here or there. You have clearly headed in your own direction in your idea of how the poem/clues are structured and/or how Fenn laid it out to be interpreted. Could be correct…then again, that route may be the highway to nothing. The current topic and threads are good ones to explore. In the end…I believe that THE correctly deciphered first clue does just what Fenn has said…metaphorically speaking. Riddles stink…

        • Ken: I believe that THE correctly deciphered first clue does just what Fenn has said…metaphorically speaking.

          Yes. IMO.

          SRW

      • I wasn’t around in 2014 (on the chase that is) but wouldn’t you be a spiral (staircase maybe) Is that the right answer Seeker? JDA

      • I would prefer Rick and Morty quotes over Big Bang quotes.

        As for being straight forward, nothing ever is unless you adjust.

  28. Now that I have a plausible (for me) determination of Stanza 5, I go to Stanza 6…. and wonder about things audio: ‘hear me’ and ‘listen good’. First thoughts are, well, it must be a noisy place, perhaps a hint to the sounds of rushing water, or winds, bleating animals, battering rams, trains, planes, automobiles? Maybe its a call-out is across a distance, an amphitheater of echos. It does not feel to be a mimiic of a Miss Ford simply saying: Pay attention class.

    So I wondered more… Maybe it is the very theatrical formality of the words themselves…”So hear me all” … hmmm, ” Shakespeare, a carnival barker, a pompous General addressing the troops? Or, a call-out made in a place of theater, a ritual call-out by a shaman or priest … to the gods, the choir, the performers, the penitents. Nobody actually says “So hear me all” do they? Unless they are in performance, on a stage. Is the call-out to make you assent? To listen good? Ready to participate in a spiritual wonderment?

    My personal mantra has become a lovely (and grossly pared-down and paraphrased) observation of Osborne Russell….. ‘In the absence of knowledge, supposition steps forward, and wonder is put to the test.’ Etymologically, wonder is related to marvel & to smile….. interesting, no? Think about it. I’m tired and weak now and have to get back to cursing at the TV. OS2

    • Hear me and Listen good – I agree MAY relate to a sound heard like a brook or stream or even a waterfall. Forrest has had a couple of SB’s that have related to the sound of bells – as well as “His” bells. Being a stone sculptor, I am familiar with the “ringing” sounds that some stones can have when struck by a hammer or some metal object. I wonder…??? JDA

      • For the often lack of water noise at my solves I tend to get drawn to Quaking Aspens at this line in the poem. Which leaves me a sense of leaving the poem that I haven’t been able to shake.

        • I was addicted to Quaking Aspens for many months, years ago till I found a cure but the cure may be worse than the addiction unfortunately.

        • Quake Lake comes to mind.
          Treasure State, where it’s at.
          Got back from a search of Taylor & Tepee Creeks.
          Just checking out the falls up close.
          Both have heavy loads and water high.
          Love Montana in the summer and fall.

      • I meant to add JDA that I really would love something in my solve related to bells here as even a church with bells would be a long standing stable of bellish noise. I definitely don’t think bells in the solve would be a rabbit hole.

    • Do you hear the bell?

      “Ask not For Whom The Bell Tolls, It Tolls For Thee.”

      And that’s some Important Literature right there.

    • I hear you. Do you hear me? After Wyoming, perhaps a spiritual or sacred place… a call-out from a theater…. a battleground, a parade ground, a cemetery, a churchy or story-telling place, even an educational place…. a ‘So hear me all and listen good’ place. I’m still narrowing down to the WHERE TO BEGIN place. Jumping to a warm wet confluence is just be a bit too premature for me.

    • In SB172 Forrest teaches us that steam locomotives had physical bells. On pg42 of TTOTC he talks about the soothing sound of the steam locomotives air horns (not even steam whistles). I’ve always wondered if there is a correlation, I’m not there yet but maybe it’ll help someone.

      By the way, in SB172 he talk about his meaning of 1 bell, 2 bells, 3 bells. Here’s what they potentially mean for a train:
      http://trn.trains.com/railroads/abcs-of-railroading/2006/05/whistle-signals

    • This is not an original idea of mine, I read it somewhere here, but I can’t remember who the original poster was. My apologies to the original poster, please claim the credit if it was you. Also, the analysis is all my opinion only.

      Stanza 6 seems to be used to reinforce or add emphasis to important elements of the first four stanzas of the poem, one line for each stanza. But, it appears that stanza 6 uses opposite words to do this:

      Hear me all…I can keep my secret
      Worth the cold…warm waters halt
      Brave and in the wood…no place for the meek
      Give you title to the gold…take the chest

      So, is there anything about SHMAALG that could be used to narrow down the location in stanza 1? Is there a story ff tells about not being heard or understood?

      When he jumped off the Leon River bridge, he kept that secret to himself. Leon – alone?

      • Very interesting. I will have to see if i can do something with that one.

        Thanks for reposting WoT, and thanks to the original poster. J.O.

  29. Quick question, and slightly off topic.

    Where do you all copy and past Fenn’s quotes from? Do you all have your own personal stash? I’m not able to copy and paste from tarryscant. Takes me forever to find the relevant quotes when I need them.

    Thanks for any pointers in advance.

    SRW

    • I have been thinking about getting the Chasing Words from the No Paddle Creek Co Dal endorsed recently (their link is at the bottom of the page). Otherwise I stick to here and Jenny’s site (and Jenny’s book).

    • I think Zap has typed in EVERYTHING :- ) his database must be huge.

      I have Chasing Words of Forrest Fenn by J.C. Merritt. He gives the references – cligk – go to the reference, like M/W – copy and paste from there. IOf a video – copy the link – copy that address and paste – type in place on tape like 12:22. That’s how I do it anyway – slow but reliable – JDA

      • Thanks guys.

        I wonder why we’re unable to copy/past from t…scant? That would sure make thing much easier.

        I wasn’t wanting to sit here and have to hand-type entire quotes, word for word, over and over, from things that Forrest has said. Geeez, sometimes just answering a simple question on here becomes the equivilent of writing a 3 page essay. Just thought there might be an easier way.

        Anyways, thanks.

        SRW

        • Each individual entry on terryscant contains a hyperlink in its header to the source of the quote. So if it’s from a MW Q&A or a scrapbook, for example, you can go directly there and copy/paste from the source. I think it’s useful to do because it lets you see the quote in its (sometimes) fuller context.

          If it’s a video result, the link will take you to the video. In that case, you do have to transcribe it yourself though, if you want to post it.

          But it’s also useful to listen to those verbal quotes, because often the way something was said in its original context can, subtly or otherwise, change your understanding of the quote. Also, by listening you may occasionally find an error in the written transcription. On at least one occasion, a significant word change between what was said and what was transcribed.

          (I’d tell you what it was, but at the moment I just can’t remember.)

          Jake

        • SRW,
          Another option is to save the Tarry Scant Search Results page to your computer and the open it up in a HTML editor program.
          It saves everything on the page with all the links.

      • Thanks, JDA, for the tip of the hat — yes, I have a pretty extensive database. LOL 😉 I’m 100% sure JCM’s is better, and I wholeheartedly encourage serious searchers to purchase his reference. I’m just “old-school” and prefer to personally transcribe the many online videos with my own “body-language” notes.

    • SWR,

      JCM’s documents… located in “books by searchers” at the top right of the pages… has a collection and updates of the ATF’s Including second hand known comments; e-mails, interviews with no audio, folks who have talked to fenn in person etc.
      Other places [ web pages ] like Mysterious writings [ found below on each topic page has many Q&A and interviews with fenn as well. Just look around this site and the topic threads and you’ll find many pieces of information about comments from fenn. SB’s – Forrest gets mail. etc. But if your looking for a more organized set of info… JCM’s Documents is a good choice.

      If you mention my name… he’ll charge ya double.

      • LOL…not gonna mention your name. Thanks. But even with a book, still have to retype everything. I was looking for an easier way (copy/paste).

        Thanks again,

        SRW

        • Nope,
          It’s not really a book [it was just add to that thread]… it’s a document set up in a couple different ways. It contains link to all the ATF’s.. be it an interview, radio, Q&A etc etc. Including dates for each [download to your computer]. JCM also keeps up with new information as it comes out…
          I’m not trying to sell ya anything, I just think its a good set of documents, in an easy to reach place, on your own computer… no reason to cut and paste.

          • Thanks Seeker,

            So it’s more like an electronic file, PDF or Word document kind of thing? Is it searchable? That would be awesome. I’ll take a look at it.

            Thanks also to Charlie, Bowmarc, Fennatical and everybody else for your suggestions too. Very helpful.

            SRW

          • Yes it is searchable – press F3 and type in what you want to look for. You can NOT cut and paste from what shows up – you must click on the link, and then cut and paste from there is it is written. If it is a video – good luck listening. JCM has transcribed it, but you can NOT cut and paste what he has transcribed – JDA

      • So it probably doesn’t help I own the only personalized plate in Montana that says “SEEKER”. FYI, I also own “HIDER” on another van.

        • HA!
          I have them as well… “Bite Me.” For the car

          For the truck;
          “We the People
          R idiots.”

    • I keep all my Chase notes and solves-in-progress in a document on an external drive (that I can unplug when not in use to reduce opportunities for getting hacked), including key quotes and references to where I found the quote (TToTC page#, TFTW page#, TarryScant search terms and result IDs, etc). For tromping around the countryside, I just print off a current copy and stuff it in a ziplock bag along with a couple pencils for further note-taking in the field. To copy a quote into a comment here on Dal’s site, I just copy/paste from my “notebook”.

      To keep it manageable, I don’t include *every* quote (that would be an ocean of material). I just include the ones that speak to me as important to my solves. When I discard a solve, I move it and its supporting material to its own document in case I ever want to revisit that solve.

      What gets obnoxious is when I need to discuss a quote that I remember seeing but that is not in my “notebook”.

      • Thanks Ray,

        Dang…I wish I was that organized. I’ve got little scraps of notes everywhere. Stickies, backs of envelopes, etc. I’ll have to work at organizing better.

        But Fenn does have a lot of quotes out there now. Those have been hard to keep track of. Especially citing them for reverence sake.

        Thanks again,

        SRW

        • SRW,

          I must be old-school because I just cram most of it up top and contain it with bob-wire. Ditto on the scraps, envelopes, etc. though!

          The easiest way for quotes is just to misquote f… and JDA, Seeker, or Zap will do the work for ya! ; )

    • Sometimes I can cut and paste from Terry Scant if I right click and “View Page Source”. I might have to search for it and then slightly edit but it easier for me than tyyyping.

      • Thanks Argillite…that worked. It is garbly at first but you’re right. Once you find it, it can easily be copied and pasted.

        Thanks!

        SRW

    • SRW, there is a program, MWsnap, that takes pictures of your screen, if you are on a computer. It is very easy to use, and you can save as jpg, btm, and other pic formats. You could just take pics of whatever you want and save the files if you need.
      This is even easier then copy/paste. I’ve used this program anytime I need to copy what is on my screen. Is safe, easy to use, and a small program. Try it, you will use it, guaranteed. And no, I have nothing to do with them, just trying to help you out.

      • And, Fennatical is right, just may need to change the format. A good text editor would help. I think one is called edit pad lite, but not sure 100% of the name. Something like that. Good luck. OR, you may get Zap, or Loco in a good mood and they may share if you pose a question.

    • I have a hybrid system as sometimes I copy and paste text into my spreadsheet and other times I just take a screenshot and paste that into my spreadsheet. I have tab after tab of different aspects of the chase, from search areas to searchers to types of searches, etc. I suppose at some point my screenshots will need to be rewritten if I want the text/data they contain to be available for a word search, but for now it is manageable.

  30. Actually, you can copy/paste from TarryScant.com.

    It’s not a super easy method, but it can be done. Simply Right Mouse Click on the results page and select ‘View Souce’

    Copy and paste your text as needed.

  31. Proposal for an iPhone app.

    I already have this app working for my Mac, and it works extremely well and very accurate.
    I am thinking of making an iPhone version for sale for all searchers.

    Here is the story behind it.
    (from here on out consider everything to be “in my opinion”, it is either correct or it is not. up to each to decide.)

    there are two kinds of searchers:

    1) ignorance is bliss searcher: they are using a limited set of data, and are perfectly happy with solutions that come from this set. most likely will always produce the wrong solution though.

    2) embarrassment of riches searcher: (not the kind of riches you are thinking of, the kind with too much data to sort through type of riches) I fall into this one, and am kind of jealous of the other kind. 🙂

    This app will create the second kind of searcher, for better or for worse. up to searcher to decide. However the data will be highly “organized” and will be easy to read through and produce “solutions”, however there will be tons of these solutions produced.

    I believe that if every searcher used this “app”, it would bring the chase time down from possibly 1000s of years to possibly 10s of years, just by the shear numbers of solutions produced to be examined. (only if there was some coordination of solutions involved though, coordination remains to be seen, but this app would be the first step)

    name of app: “Fenn treasure X tools”
    description of what the app does:

    The app helps in two different aspects of the chase.

    first aspect:) ff quote: “The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot”.

    I was disappointed when I read this, I figured my one advantage with this chase is I knew exactly how ff encoded the poem, and then here he is telling us that in fact he did do this. There is only one way to point to a specific “spot” on a map without a GPS. A way in which pilots used to use all the time, it is through “vectors”, drawing lines between VORs so we could find where we were at while flying, and coordinate these vector lines with a map.

    So the poem is really telling us two things, a general solve, and a specific solve, the specific solve is telling us anchor points, in which we should draw lines between. Also ff is a “pirate” at heart so this probably means that there are two (or more) vectors creating a giant “X” marks a spot on a map.

    The way the app works is you drop a pin on a google map for instance, and the app tells you every pair of “Anchor pts” that goes through this point, with the distance from that pin. so you can specify the maximum distance from pin in feet you want to include, (distance from the pin that the vector crosses) (distance is in plan, elevation distance is not include in search) (this distance is extremely accurate to the foot)

    the result is a spreadsheet of every coordinate pair, its name, it’s lat/long, and its distance from the pin, and the maximum distance in miles of the two “Anchor pts” from the pin. (also you can specify in ‘miles’ a radius to search from the pin for features)

    what are the anchor pts? they are USGS map features.

    The app automatically does NOT include USGS features like this:

    NOT include: (man made)

    Airports
    Buildings
    Churches
    Hospitals
    Schools
    Bridges
    Crossings (some are include that are not highways)
    Towers (some are include that are not radio/TV)
    Tunnels
    Cemeteries
    Dams
    Mines
    Wells
    Oil wells
    civil/civic

    also NOT include: (features that are not specific points in general, like streams/trails)

    streams
    trails
    Locales
    Populated Places
    Forests
    Parks
    Reserves
    Area
    Plain
    Range
    Basin
    Flat
    Harbor

    The app automatically does include USGS features like this:

    Arch
    Bar
    Arroyo
    Bend
    Bench
    Cape
    Cliff
    Crater
    Lava
    Slope
    Swamp
    Isthmus
    Crossing (some)
    Tower (some)
    Gap
    Glacier
    Gut
    Island
    Pillar
    Falls
    Rapid
    Spring
    Summit
    Ridge
    Valley (turned off by default, but can be turned on)
    Lake (turned off by default, but can be turned on)
    Reservoir (turned off by default, but can be turned on)

    and others that I am not thinking of at the moment.

    Now that is not to say that ff only used these, and probably did not only use these, in that case, you can also create your own “features” by creating a name, and typing in the lat,long of that feature to include.

    the result is a massive spreadsheet of 10s of thousands of pairs, (depending on the radiuses used, and what you turn on and off in the features to search.

    also if you think ff hates “Craters” for instance, you can turn that or anything else off in the search.

    this spreadsheet can then be color coded to your liking by searching and filtering to your hearts content using your favorite spreadsheet app.

    and then you can visualize particular anchor pt pairs, by drawing lines in google earth/maps using the lat/long that the spreadsheet provides.

    also in the app there would be a preference to “lock” one of the anchor pts to a feature you think ff used… there by getting all of the paired pts that would create a vector through the pin with your locked feature, (including features that you’ve created)

    if you did want to use a “Park” for instance, you can just simply type that feature in, and the app will use it in its process.

    any user created features stay on the device and only the user can see/use them. nothing is shared in the app, full on hard core privacy in other words.

    second aspect:) ff quote: “You just have to think the right things”.

    This is where the app shines I believe, because as you are filtering and color coding your spreadsheet, you will be reading through the anchor pt pairs, and a name of one of the anchor pts will strike you as having a “meaning” you never had thought of before. Bringing a whole life unto the line you are about to draw on a google map.

    this is where I found the most use of the app, literally hundreds even thousands of new “ideas” of different “thinking” pop up as you read through the list. you will for better or worse, leave the camp of “ignorance is bliss” in a none reversible break to the “other side”.

    anyway, that is my proposal, I would have to make the app fairly expensive, because first, one would have to believe in this line of thinking, (maybe a few percent of searchers) and then even fewer would actually buy the app, making it hard to recoup the development/marketing/Apple costs.

    let me know some feedback, and if you would buy such an app at about $50 for instance.

    • Hi Writis;

      Sounds interesting, but since I do not believe that Forrest actually meant for lines to cross when putting an “X” on a map, your app would be of NO use to me – Good thinking and programming though – JMO – JDA

      • The one thing I would be willing to bet on in all of this is that there is way to put an X on the map to get you to the correct solve within several feet.

        • Dear I. D.—

          You are correct…if you marry the clues to a map and draw lines between them……you get them all intersecting over one area.

          (Mr.f if yur listening…My gut says it will be found about March, my leg is still broken. I read the questions, and now I know most of the answers. If I cant get there, I’m going to give it away. Ive a Job to do).

          All in my opinion;

          Best regards to all;

          1f Billy

        • Idle Dreamer: I will totally take that bet. In my opinion there is nothing in the poem that will take you sight unseen to within several feet of the treasure chest.

          • If you only had the poem I would agree that you could never find it as the book tells us there are 9 clues in the poem, the poem doesn’t do that alone nor does it tell us we need to marry the clues to a map (though one might say that is treasure hunting 101). As for the bet, just know my take is that there is a way but I feel it takes more than the poem alone to get you there but that Forest does imply that there is a way to get to a correct solve and my bet is that it does exist. (Just to clarify I meant there is a way with more than the poem).

          • Hi Zap, if you include a “good” map with that, couldn’t someone show a few ff comments that would contradict your opinion pretty decisively, knowing you have/know most/all ff comments, I am curious how you get to that opinion?

            I believe I remember ff commenting “several feet”, to someone asking if the poem can take one directly to the chest.

            Coupled with the comments about just needing a good map and the poem, I would think that surely that opinion is contradictory?

          • Writis…It was a comment from Mysterious Writings Periodic Words from Forrest June 2, 2017
            “Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. Otherwise you have a “general solve”. What do you think?” F
            This comment has a certain smell to it that keeps me wondering whether it can be taken literally. I do think it has enough merit to say that Fenn is indicating a “correct solve” does not include his many debatable comments(ATF)…nor drawing any circles to eliminate anything because the clues aren’t working. I think the *Real* “correct solve” will take a searcher right to it. Did I tell you how much I like maps?

          • Idle Dreamer: let me expand a bit on my post above. Forrest has said that there isn’t an image of the treasure chest on Google Earth — that it “doesn’t go down far enough.” Since the spatial resolution of Google Earth’s images is probably no better than a few meters, that’s not too surprising a comment from Forrest — particularly if the chest is covered by something or stuffed in a crevice. So I believe you will need to spot something in person to direct you to within footsteps of the treasure chest — something that may not be discernible on G.E. This is what I think Forrest meant when he wrote of solving all the clues from home: “All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.” For instance, by correctly deciphering the poem you may know what to look for when you’re at the right general area, but not know exactly where you’ll find it.

          • Idle Dreamer: you wrote above, “If you only had the poem I would agree that you could never find it as the book tells us there are 9 clues in the poem, the poem doesn’t do that alone nor does it tell us we need to marry the clues to a map (though one might say that is treasure hunting 101).”

            I think the most critical piece of information not found in the poem is that the treasure is hidden in the mountains somewhere north of Santa Fe. I agree with your last parenthetical remark: no one really needed to be told that the poem’s clues need to be married to a map. But I also don’t think that knowing there are 9 clues is critical information.

      • The FF quote in question is “The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot”. Couple that with the FF quote that “The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege (knowledge)” and it seems to me that the whole process of solving the 9 clues to find the treasure is one of locating a very specific spot where the TC is waiting to be found (I know…NO DUH Bowmarc!!!) BUT I don’t know if the poem allows us to draw an “X” per se, or if the LINES OF THE POEM narrow down our quest to “…the right spot”, possibly even along a single straight path which eventually crosses over the TC spot. Either way, I don’t think I need an App for the process.

        Food for thought.

        • Morning Bowmarc,

          You brought up this quote from Fenn: “The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot”.

          This one makes me think…how are we supposed to make … ALL …the lines cross? If we were somehow able to do that, it seems to me that we would end up with more of an asterik I think, instead of and “x”.

          Confusing, I know.

          SRW

          • C’mon JDA—you must have at least chuckled at my attempt at humor due to the vague nature of your warning.

          • Come to think of it, you could have been making that warning about yourself. ROFL

            I guess I’m just punchy from all this OT.

            No offense meant JDA.

          • Thanks,

            I know what you meant. And I understood what JDA was saying too. I can see the humor too!

            Have a good day!

            SRW

          • SWR,

            A question… How many physical points are in your solve? [ not including traveling from point to point ]
            Example; If a creek is only to be followed from one point to another, that would be a traveling a clue … not so much a physical point/spot/location.

            Just curious…

          • SRW, you can use stanzas 2 and 3 to easily draw an X on the map. It takes about 6 to 8 clues to get it done depending on what is a location and what is an instruction. No asterisk needed.

          • Hi Seeker,

            You asked: A question… How many physical points are in your solve? [ not including traveling from point to point ]
            Example; If a creek is only to be followed from one point to another, that would be a traveling a clue … not so much a physical point/spot/location.

            Just curious…

            Wow…I had to really think on this one. Lets see. The traveling parts of the clues are a little harder for me to explain because each clue would have an ending point from the previous clue, which also would then become the beginning point for the next clue, and I don’t want to count those locations twice. LOL…I think I just defined contiguous.

            Anyways, after carefully counting my individual locations that I think are the clues, I do end up with 9. The weird thing is, each of my 9 locations all have their own individual names. That is, each can be easily identified by the name of the noun for which each clue represents. For example, “it” at WWWH. “It” is a thing and “it” has a common name and WWWH is also a thing and it also has it’s own name. And “it” has to be used in conjunction with WWWH, and more.

            For me, there are several bits and pieces of information, sometimes from more than one line, that constitute a complete clue. IMO. Like “it” and WWWH, “and take it”, etc. In my opinion, WWWH is not a complete solve for clue 1.

            Once I have solved clue 1, I go to clue 2.

            Anyways, that how I’ve figured the clues.

            Also, I know you don’t cotton the idea of stomping from point A to point B….. well, from point B to point C to point D anyways, but that is definitely how I see the poem. Nearly all of my clues seem to be “go there….from there” and “from there…..go there”. This is the only way that I know of to get on down the road, so to speak. This seems the most “straightforward” to me.

            Also, I do believe there is some travel/footwork involved in finding this thing. Otherwise, were all just stuck at clue number 1, going nowhere fast.

            Anyways, hope this helps you some…but not too much!

            All IMO.

            SRW

          • Hi Oz10,

            You said: SRW, you can use stanzas 2 and 3 to easily draw an X on the map. It takes about 6 to 8 clues to get it done depending on what is a location and what is an instruction. No asterisk needed.

            I haven’t actually tried real hard to put an “x” physically on a map yet. My clues take me “straightforward” so I’m not sure how Id get the lines to cross. I pretty much take all of “x” talk differently. I’ll play with it a bit though. IMO.

            Thanks,

            SRW

        • As I posted earlier, make ALL the lines cross implies more than two. However, I try to keep in mind that this may not be a direct word-for-word quote from Forrest — it could be a paraphrasal of information supplied by Forrest to the Business Insider’s writer:

          “Read the clues in my poem over and over and study maps of the Rocky Mountains,” he said via email. “Try to marry the two. The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.”

          Personally, I think it’s an accurate quote, but I’m biased because it fits perfectly with my solution. 😉

          • Nope, just two lines. The X, roman number 10. Completed?

            Who said ‘everybody needs an intersection’?

          • Hi Zap,

            I take that comment a little less literally. More like make sure we’re dotting all our i’s and crossing all our t’s kind of statement. IMO.

            SRW

          • Hi Oz10,

            Your comment: Who said ‘everybody needs an intersection’?

            hmmmm. I do have an intersection. I’ll have to think on it.

            Thanks,

            SRW

          • SRW: like you, my interpretation of that quote is not literal: I’m not drawing a bunch of lines on a map and seeing where they cross. It’s more poetic/imaginative than that. (Although a couple years ago I did come up with a solution that was the intersection of the longitude of one named feature on a map with the latitude of another named feature. I thought it was pretty clever, but unfortunately it was not what Forrest had in mind.)

          • Zap

            As I have explained. It has to be 8 points, 4 lines.

            The first two points create a line. The next two, another line. The lines cross, but you don’t know if that’s the spot. Two more waypoints creates a third line. If that line crosses where the first to cross, ok you are good. But if that third line crosses one or both the other two, you are left again uncertain. Two more waypoints and a fourth line gives confirmation.

            Unless, of course, the lines don’t cross. They form seven sides. Then it is you that must cross.

            See?

          • Hi Lugnutz: the trouble is, nature is never that neat, tidy and geometrically perfect (even if our coordinate system is). The probability of three pairs of physical waypoints in nature producing a triplet of lines that share a common intersection point is effectively zero (unless only coarse accuracy is required). To extend this to four pairs of lines seems too astronomically unlikely to be worthy of consideration.

            However, there is a way you could make it work: if your three lines, while not co-intersecting, penned-in a relatively small triangular area, within which was found a unique feature that could act as a blaze. Such a system could be quite effective: correctly solving two points would give you nothing. Solving even four points would only give you one vertex of the triangle (though that might be sufficient to hazard a guess as to the identity of the blaze). I suppose you could even extend that to four pairs of points, four lines, and a bounded quadrangle.

            But the poem doesn’t really read like that, does it? Maybe a future treasure hunt will employ such a system.

          • Zap, I believe Dal maybe able to answer this for us, because I don’t remember for sure back in 2010, and really probably back in 2008-09, but I think I remember that GE did not zoom in as far (not nearly as far) as what we can do today. (and physical sectionals are of large scale even today) Maybe Dal remembers, since he was in the chase back then… maybe using GE. I only joined since this march.

            I have been amazed by the number of triplet lines that I had to zoom in all the way to see any green between the intersections. and in general, the number of coincidences produced is just staggering, Stuff I would never have guessed could be so common. I would say, that set of points is so outrageous that I start to question how many exist. and sure enough, I find a dozen more within a few hours. not dual pts, but 3 and 4 points lining up on a single line. and crossings even more staggering.

            I’ve already checked out the most tantalizing ones, but realized it would take me 100s of trips to check them all out. THAT is how staggering this type of thing is producing.

            I used to have the app draw out the lines for me, and even label the points, but looked at one of them and it looks like a giant black dot, completely unreadable. Within just one of those, there are a dozen possibilities, some more intriguing that others.

            I am totally serious here. The numbers of things with 3 pts on a single line, you can come up with, Xs, Zs, asterisks, straight paths… it is simply astonishing.

            worse, I think ff really is a visual person, and he really did put a simple “X” on the map, a “pirate” “X” and that just means four points, however, that does not mean it is not fraught with coincidences getting to those four corners, hence the “all the lines cross” in the right… now here is the change up… “spots”…..

            you are right, nature is not that well organized. but when you have 100s of thousands of “features” in a general area, it becomes a blank canvas that you can draw anything on.

            I try eliminating things that were even slightly not “fenny”, and I come away with 4 solutions just for one run of the data. solutions that are so remarkable in their coincidences with the poem, that handing one to a searcher that has not seen this data, they would jump in a car. I had some that I couldn’t imagine can not be something designed. but then I find a dozen more.

            If ff really only used an “X”, and I suspect he did. Well this thing is not going to end any time soon with out some sort of concerted, full on organization.

          • in case anyone is wondering why I don’t show an example, unfortunately they all would reveal my wwh, and my hob, and I can’t yet give up on them.

    • I think you would definitely have a market but as to how many and how good of a gauge thus site can give you I don’t know. As a developer that is definitely not a small development but I think you should more be thinking along the lines of if it helps you find the treasure. Otherwise make it reusable and useable in all armchair treasure hunts.

    • I was on a *vector* kick for some time…I relapse every once in awhile. There have been so many direct and indirect references to *vector* over the years that it would be exhausting to rehash.

      • I would be all ears on another method of specifying an exact spot on a map, without a graphic, and without GPS, (which I believe ff has implied there is no secret GPS coordinate involved)

        if a method exists other than vectors, I would include that in the app.

        I believe our military and map makers from long ago have shown every method there is, and they all include drawing a vector, w/distance if available. That is if one is not using the GPS network.

        And distance also is not encoded (I believe, judging from ff comments about cyphers and such) in the poem. (numbers of any kind in other words are not encoded in the poem, imo from the numerous comments from ff; someone can correct me if I am wrong there.)

        I don’t think JDA is going to provide his method. But I would love to hear some other way of encoding mapping to within several feet. I would include that in any app produced.

        • Writis;

          I just use the known and available statements by Forrest.

          Forrest has said that people have been within 500′ and 200′ of the treasure. There are “Knowns” from the poem – End, HL n WH, No paddle up your creek and the Blaze etc.

          I will use these 500′ and 200′ statements to draw circles.
          My 500′ measurement may be from an identifiable landmark – Like a trail sign. an overlook, a whatever – some spot that a searcher could identify to Forrest.

          NOW, IF my HL and WH spot (as an example) is within that 500′ circle, I draw 200′ circles from my HL and/or WH locations.

          I now know that IF my HL and/or WH spot is correct that the TC location is within 500′ circle and may be within the 200′ circle(s). If I know two locations, like HL AND WH I draw two 200′ circles – Do these circles intersect? If they do, this is a POSSIBLE TC location. I have one more measurement, but am not willing to say what it is. If all three intersect, I am then pretty sure that I now know where the TC is – IF my other locations are correct -( and they were NOT correct in the past. Boo – Hoo 🙁 ) I recalculate and move on – Hope this helps – JDA

          • I see JDA, but I am sure when ff designed the poem, he did not envision the later statements about 500′ and 200′, so the poem must work without those statements.

            Also, IMO, I believe ff comments about walking past the treasure were simply figures of speech, so while you believe that the X crossing should not be taken literally, I believe the statements about “walking” past the treasure should not be taken literally…

            And of course it takes all types of thinking, so either you are correct… or I am correct… or someone some where will be thinking even more different and be correct.

    • Id buy an app in that price range that identified previously searched locations with explanation as to how searcher arrived at the location as answer to the clue. Im honestly most interested in the thought processes used to arrive at map locations. I also do not think lines actually cross.

  32. Ok everybody…lets make this a level playing field for everyone! I’ve weighed the scales of right and wrong, greedy and not, need and need to get it over for a certain older guy in Santa Fe…I am going to reveal the solve for anyone interested in getting boots on the ground and finishing this off. I hope the scales are correct but my liver will not cooperate enough to finish it off. I think some of the smarter ones here want to finish this for the sake of Forrest(Ken & many others) so allow me to give you the correct solve so you have a fair chance which means you better get in your car and GO! And remember I was off on my first location which was in between the 2 mountains! I wasn’t arrogant I was just seeing things apparently! So all you MONTANA PEEPS here goes! Fair chance for everybody…

        • we need to end this greed for the old guy and I’m just trying to give everyone a fair chance at it…IMO DAL!!!

          • Someone has the correct solve 🙂 Is it Y’all or do you want to trust in someone else??? 4 hours or so it will be here!!!!

          • Jake, NO DOUBT! Don’t forget the milk! I can tell you that I believe the milk is the clincher but just in case I’m wrong…get some botg and finish it off. But that was going to be one of the FIRST things I mentioned because of what I’ve seen. I believe there could easily be an announcement sooner than later on this matter! AURAUN BEHUARAHR

    • Deano: “lets make this a level playing field for everyone!”

      Nothing level about it including the terrain.

    • I wouldn’t be afraid to throw it out here as I and many have done.
      Yes there are a bunch here who only share things you have to guess what they think and what fun is that trying to figure their rabbit hole out?

      Chances are, we really don’t know where it is.
      I’ve had my areas and theories picked apart for years here and many veterans that know more than me when it comes to ATF but in the end you are the one that crosses the creek if you can.

      Those that hold it close to the vest are those that don’t get the chest.
      As all.

  33. Now McB has been doing some boasting on FF Facebook Galore so it’s possible this could be over. Also, on the last Q & A someone who’s name is “Luckyguy” is predicting an announcement due to a “rumor” he’s heard…so with that said and from what I’ve seen with botg…it could be over! IMO!

  34. But if not…let’s give this a shot because my liver has me severely handicapped. NOT IMO…FACT! 🙂

  35. And here’s the beauty of it…if it’s been found and everyone wants to keep a secret then all they have to due is deny any of my solve is correct! Pretty simple right? But if the digging I”ve seen on the back side of the bulls-eye and the possible hiding spot(crevice) isn’t it then it’s in only one other possible spot(logically).

  36. But I think the milk tells a story…the only thing Forrest left out was the part about the TOAST being BURNT!

  37. IMO…

    CLUE #1 – Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down.

    Gardiner Montana…Gardner river drops in there(warm waters) as well as Yellowstone N.P. ends there(Forrest’s heart is in Yellowstone) WARM WATERS HALT!!!

    • that’s ridiculous. What in THE POEM tells you to start there? You are starting off with guessing. (please insert background music here), Wa,wa,waaaa.

    • Supporting hint in TToTC: Forrest dreamed he was Captain Kidd going to Gardiner Island to find his treasure.

      Robert Livingston backed Captain Kidd’s privateer voyage.

      The old Park Line railroad right of way runs from Livingston to Gardiner. The end of the line was at the station in front of the gateway arch at the edge of YNP. The Gardiner station also was a “water stop” for the railroad. (The station and tower are no longer there.)

      Supporting hint in TToTC: The opening of the arch resembles an omega symbol like the pair in the colophon of TToTC. (A single omega is typical when one is used at all in a colophon. A double omega is unusual, thus worthy of note.)

      Having recovered his treasure on Gardiner Island, Captain Kidd would have set sail. If you go down the canyon from Gardiner (“sailing in a good tailwind”), you pass through the Paradise Valley and end up back in Livingston. (Unless you stop before then for some reason. And really, why would you want to sail past Paradise?)

      • Very interesting connections you have drawn between Livingston & Gardiner. But how would you solve that with ONLY the poem? I dont see it working.

        I wonder if Im the only person who doesnt see the omega sign as important. I think it is a subtle hint toward FF’s father watching him from a cloud. If he knows anything about his son, “he is busy lighting candles, some of them on both ends” that is why the double omega. Its not the omega IMO that matters. Its the candle being lit at both ends IM9

  38. CLUE #2 – not far, but too far to walk…debatable by all, but you’re looking for the home of Brown!

    • My opinion: Not far = not all the way back to Livingston.

      My opinion: Too far to walk = more than a quick walk down the canyon. In the past, you could have hopped on the train. Today, the train doesn’t run anymore so you’ll have to settle for a car on the conveniently placed highway.

  39. CLUE #3 – Put in below the home of Brown… H.F. Brown purchased Aldridge back in the early 1900’s(1902-ish) which was a coal mining town that shipped out over 50 tons of coal a day (Largest coal mining operation in the United States at the time) via the railroad that was in the basin below the mountain.

    • So how does that get you closer to the chest? What is the clue solve? And when did f say this was a clue?

    • Aldridge was the “home” of H.F. Brown. The area in the Paradise Valley at the base of the mountain is below that home. Park your car here and proceed using an alternate mode of transportation. (Nearest major automobile bridge is Corwin Springs, not far away.)

      This is not my “home of Brown”, but it’s close enough that I’d grant a mulligan on this one.

  40. CLUE #4 – From there it’s no place for the meek…The Church Universal and Triumphant(CUT) owns the land now…The meek shall inherit the earth…thus it’s no place for the meek!!!

    • Supporting hint in TToTC: the two “old biddies” at the big church social who said Forrest could not run away because he was not allowed to cross the street, implying that the street was a boundary Forrest could not cross. Forrest knew better though.

      Supporting hint in TToTC: the “borderline biddies” in the Borders who slowed Forrest down in the checkout line by being “preoccupied with some kind of breathtaking nonsense”.

      My opinion: Lots of references to borders/boundaries in those two stories, and to biddies preaching a bunch of nonsense while inconveniencing Forrest, but not actually stopping him.

      Even though CUT and the government held a land swap back in the 1990s, there are still parcels of public land that cannot be easily reached without crossing private CUT land, so you have to be aware of where the public access easements are. The CUT members are suspicious of trespassers, but they cannot prevent you from using a legal public easement. At worst, they might slow you down a little. And if they ever sell the land, that tangle of property lines will still exist under new ownership.

      But don’t look for the TC on CUT land, just pass through to reach your destination. The meek may inherit the earth, but they have no claim on the bronze or the gold because it isn’t there; it is in a place that is *not* for the meek (CUT members).

  41. CLUE # 5 – The end is ever drawing nigh…The CUT predicted in 1990 that the nuclear war was going to happen in April of 1990(which didn’t happen YET)…thus the end is ever drawing nigh. ALSO, the end of your quest is right here in this area.

  42. CLUE # 6- There’ll be no paddle up your creek! On page 100 in TTOTC, Forrest describes the resting place of the French soldiers! “The ground knows and the tall grass knows but they won’t tell”. On page 102 Forrest is now describing a different location! “The grass sees, and the trees and the rushing waters of THE SPRING CREEK also see”…Spring creek drops into the Yellowstone RIGHT THERE! It runs to the left into the mountain and it’s a natural spring if you look. YOUR CREEK is SPRING CREEK!

  43. CLUE # 6(Cont.) – Just heavy loads and water high…Like I said, 50 tons of coal was mined a day on that mountain (Aldridge, Mt.) back in the early 1900’s! Heavy Loads! Water high is Aldridge Lake that sits just below the town(Water High). Right there on the map if ya look.

  44. CLUE # 7 – If you’re wise and found the blaze…The blaze is a headstone covered in grass at the top of the mountain(above lower Aldridge road) and then it levels off and goes back to the spring! So the blaze is a headstone covered in grass! French soldier’s headstone was covered in grass…about 1 mile total from where you would park where Spring Creek crosses over Old Yellowstone Trail. Still a mainstay for wildlife viewing!

  45. CLUE # 8 – Look quickly down your quest to cease! ZAP here’s where all the BULLS EYES come into play! When you look down, there’s this big ole YELLOW STONE sitting on the side of the bank of Yellowstone River…it’s called La Duke Hot Spring!!! There’s your bulls eye! 100%! The 154 degree water is pumped under highway 89 through a colvert. This is easily seen from GE and it’s yellowish orange due to the SULFER content! That’s why happytroth(Q & A) said “actually Kristina, it’s the eggs that stink”…there’s your eggs over easy peeps!

  46. CLUE # 9 – BUT tarry scant with marvel gaze… BUT your quest is NOT over yet! Here’s where it gets interesting and can go one of a few different ways so keep an open mind but this is also where I seen the digging and crevice on the East side of 89 up on the split rock formation!

    • Nice Solve Deano–Can you please tell me your opinion on what “IT” is..To me that is the real curve ball of the game-Chase..That is what drives me in my direction..Just one man’s opinion,hope to one day get back to my area-With forest fires and cancelled vacations this summer it won’t be till next year..Wishing all searchers a safe and prosperous journey..

  47. But tarry scant with marvel gaze….But to the right…with marvel gaze. Here’s where it either ends or it continues to the right even further at the viewing area. The crevice is on the back side of the Right Hand rock! If you look at “searcher’s discussions” on here the SECOND person whom posted, his name was 42! Now, who knows who this person is but he left a link to look at which included some valuable information! The “woodland” era ended in 1150 A.D. and the chest(indulgence) was quoted as being around an 1150 A.D. bronze chest. Also, if you look at the “Burial” instructions on that link, they were secreted(paraphrasing) in a crevice in a upright fetal position and sometimes doubled as a tomb for whomever. They sat with their knees to their chest as their final resting position! Read it to learn more about my paraphrasing cuz I’m winging it but darn close.

    • 4+ 2 = 6…not for sure but that’s an “f” if you count. But that’s neither here nor there! It’s the information provided that could be important!

  48. Now, that could be where it ends! I seen plenty of digging around the lower ledges on both sides as well as on the top! Indulgence could very well have been in the crevice on the back side if you ask me! I took pictures but I’m not totally convinced that this is it…BUT if you walk up on top of that rock formation and look out across the Yellowstone River it’s a marvel gaze to say the least! I took pictures of that as well.

  49. Now, Stanza 6 tells us a lot!
    Now hear me all and listen good…Sure sounds like Chief Joseph speaking from an upper elevation! Walk up on that rock formation and LOOK at the beauty! A great place for Chief Joseph to make his speech!

    Your effort will be worth the cold…open to interpretation but in order to see the headstone you have a better chance in the spring due to the cold. Not 100% on the reasoning on this one but it also could be due to the cold shoulder we get from others or the effort we put into the chase so many times and come up empty! Forrest said you might have to go back 3 or 4 times before you figure it out…perseverance? Like I said, open to interpretation IMO on this one.

    If you’re brave and in the wood…woodland? It’s a must read if you ask me. The location is not a steep location…easy walk from the La Duke trailhead about 500 feet to the north and about 200 feet from the Yellowstone River where it drops in at! This could be the 200/500 reference???

    • Take a sandwich and a flashlight? Well La Duke picnic area is just across the road to the north a bit. Or just enjoy the view and have a bit to eat because there’s no worry or hurry. It’s NFS land if you look on the Montana Gastral sight. The crevice is dark, but not terrible depending on the sun location or if it’s not obscured by clouds. It could be a bit dark at times depending on the time of day as well.

    • Deano,
      My very first solve was tied to Chief Joseph. I had it down to very specific details with just the poem, a map and basic knowledge obtained from high school history. Personally, I thought it was a pretty impressive solve. That was 3 years ago and quite a few solves since then.

    • If it was there I would have found it in 2013 when I searched all the way up Devil’s Slide and the canyon on its left; and La Duke area.

    • Very interesting, and very close to one of the solves I am working. I’ll even suggest the reference to CUT may be correct, not because of the church itself but because of the mess of private vs public property lines in the area (although it is not as bad as it was since they did a land swap back in the late 1990s with some formerly public plots in the area). In crossing that area, it is important to know where you are legally *allowed* to cross. Use a “good map” for this. I would not look for the TC on CUT property though; they would almost certainly exert a claim to ownership if it was found there. The meek may inherit the earth, but they have no claim on the bronze.

      Even if the “borderline biddies” sell out and move along, someone else will own the property and will be enforcing those property boundaries. The absence of CUT would perhaps make the poem more difficult to solve, but they are at least notable enough to have earned a place in the history or the local area.

      But I think this solve walks out of the poem at TEIEDN. Should have turned left at Albuquerque.

      The Slide and La Duke areas have been searched so intensely over the years that I think the TC would have been found by sheer chance by now if it was there.

      Just my opinion.

      • Ray Henry,
        IMO the “borderline biddies” couldn’t sell out if they wanted to. They are made of rock. IMO

    • lol, Loco, lmfao…..I’m in So, Cal, and I’m already starting to feel cold. Must be low seventies, freaking Winter. Waiter, leave the bottle.

    • I wish I had started reading from here; *So if Indulgence WAS there…it’s gone now.* Why do all the perfect solves always end with this disclaimer?

      That was a waste of a good cup of cawfee…

      • Heh. I started reading and thought “this almost exactly matches a solve I am working on”. Then I got about halfway through and was relieved when that solve and mine diverged. LOL

        Given how much attention has been paid to the Slide and La Duke over the years, it would take something very compelling for me to consider a solve that ends in one of those spots. By now, I think someone would have stumbled over the TC by sheer chance if it had been there.

        One piece of the formation that is the Slide is a perfect example of a naturally occurring “scant” (smooth-sided rock slab) though.

  50. BUT!!!!!!!!! Here’s the kicker!!! IF it wasn’t in that crevice there’s a SECOND option for tarry scant with marvel view!

    As you look at La Duke Hot Spring from the top of the mountain…to the RIGHT just a bit down the road and in line with “Dream Catcher Tee Pee” is a pull-off area for the DEVILS SLIDE!!! If you look it up on line it’s described as a marvelous site! This is the BACON! It’s also described by some as looking like a slab of bacon! One guy said he always called it the “bacon cliffs”! So it’s possible that the marvel gaze is the Devils Slide which was renamed “Colored Rock Viewing area” on google earth! It’s my understanding that the CUT didn’t want it called the devils slide anymore once they purchased the land. But the sign on the road at the pull-off still says “Devils Slide”.

  51. If you ask me there’s going to be an announcement but if not it’s up on that bacon! If you look from GE the “fire hole” is the la duke hot spring and the cherry pie with the slice missing from it is the circular fields below on the basin and the Yellowstone River runs between them. If it wasn’t on the back side rock formation it’s on the Devils Slide. ALL IMO. BUT, the bacon and the eggs over easy tells a story and quite possibly so does the milk. I’m tired…enjoy your solves 🙂

    • Deano, I wish you good health. Your comments about a solution to the poem leave a lot to be desired. I’m not sure you are even in the same state that the TC is in. As always, IMO.

    • Deano, I’ll keep it short. You never used the poem to solve anything. Best think you rethink your “correct solve” because all I see is the same ol’ thing we’ve seen for 8 years. A history lesson and a lot of guessing. Sorry Deano, don’t see it. JMO. Need to SOLVE the poem.

    • Hey Deano, I enjoyed your posts, thanks for taking the time. I always learn something, whether chase related or not, from folks like you who walk us through a potential solve.

      I never learn anything from those who criticize others’ thoughts, except this — they all have one thing in common — they have failed to find the TC.

    • Deano
      That was a good interesting read. Like how you showed your research on all the poem clues…after all the poem won’t just hand us that chest. History is where it’s at. Thanks

      • Jared,
        For conversational purpose, it nice to give another a tap on the back for a good job done…
        However, Lets look at just a couple of things Deano presented; As he called it “The Solve” and tells all he wants to “level the playing field”

        CUT; an organization, that I’m sure fenn probably never heard of, owning land that can be sold at any moment as a clue, and using a bible verse in conjunction to what we think is a clue in the poem.. when fenn has stated; bible verses will not assist…

        Deano also used CUT’s prediction from 1990 of a nuclear war was coming [apparently that didn’t happen] and still uses this organization’s wrong prediction as an answer to TEIEDN

        His clue # 2 doesn’t have an answer… how can anyone continue to go anywhere if a clue is not solved [ and he did call it a clue ].

        His clue # 3 is debatable. There are ATF’s in which fenn has said; the treasure is not associated with a structure… I also believe “man-made” was used at one time, and we have second hand info tha seems to imply hoB is not associated as well. IF true, and yes debatable, a mine is man-made, as well as, RXR tracks. In this case, his clue’s answer is a stretch at best.

        I also agree with Charlie on Deano’s WWH. It seems to be a guess at best, with nothing truly explaining how or why there [the clues that fenn tells us to have nailed down or stay home]or the reason for it to be nailed down.

        If others want to fluffinutter Deano’s solve by ‘ History is where it’s at.’… might I remind you of a Q&A;

        Q~ Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem. ~Steve R
        A~ No Steve R, The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.f

        Regardless of the time Deano spent on his solve, researched, mapped out etc [everyone here has done the same]… there seems to be major flaws and/or overlooked information fenn has provided over the years.
        I’m all for the idea of giving someone credit for allowing others to read about their idea… but when it starts out with the egotesticles chatter of; the correct solve and leveling the playing field for all us dummies and end it all with the chest is gone… folks will expect a hell of a lot more thought and effort, than what was stated.

        End of Commentary….

          • I don’t want to talk about other searchers… I would like to talk about the challenge. I may use another searcher theory as an example, but not the searcher themselves so much. I truly try to put personality aside for the most part.

            If this is what you want to chat about, I’ll have to pass.

        • I think some display confidence, even flaunt it, because they are not indelibly wounded by having been found wrong in the past. Others are super cautious about displaying confidence because they feel shamed by failure. Maybe, evaluate the solve, not the person.

        • I may have been harsh, but it was for reason. Again, Seeker has said what I was trying to convey. I’m just not that forgiving when someone boast the perfect solve, then says it’s now not there. Happens all the time, and just doesn’t ever pan out to anything. Just say here’s a solve and let us judge. I’m all for anybodies effort, but not to the point of saying everyone else is basically an idiot. I agree 100% with everything Seeker pointed out, I hope others see it and realize. Hard work or not, some solves need work, and it’s within solving the poem.Not arrogance.

  52. This may be something fun to discuss…or not. I know some to the really smart and equipped searchers have tools to do this so here it goes.

    I find it at least a little bit interesting that the word “that” is used at least 10 times in the very, very small chapter “In love with Yellowstone”. I mean the chapter isn’t even a full page and that just seems like a lot of “that” to me.

    • Ooops, should have put this here:
      Hi Eric,
      If you go to the bottom of this page and click on Tarry Scant then search on “colon” you’ll find several references to them.

  53. Hi Eric,
    If you go to the bottom of this page and click on Tarry Scant then search on “colon” you’ll find several references to them.

  54. How in the world does super heated water and hot springs in and around the Yellowstone area be considered warm? Waters is plural not singular and halts means to stop, how can this be applied to the Madison River? It can’t because the water is still moving. There is no proof what so ever, and that includes the idea it is were hot meets cold.

    Other things gives great pause that this idea that this area must be the place that is special to F, which creates a bias just on the basis F talks a lot about his time spent in the area. This also brings a strong point that there are hundreds or even thousands of people that have combed the area and still comes up empty handed. This also applies to the area north of SF, just because F is associated to the area, creates a bias.

    Now those that are searching in MT well away from the Yellowstone area might have a chance. And those searching in CO might have a chance. These two states mostly have warm springs and for MT this does not include the Yellowstone area. Also MT in the large part away from Yellowstone and CO are the least searched which the chances are greater to find the TC.

    I take the Yellowstone area and NM too easy as a starting point just by association. The idea I believe that F would not make it easy in finding the treasure and that point alone has been proven many times over. There is a lot of *guessing* on the starting point, a lot of *guessing* about the hoB, via being associated to a persons home, fish or even brown bears, etc… A person’s home is a structure, brown trout are not native to the area, and the brown bear’s home is not only native to the Rockies but other regions in North America. Grizzlies however are only associated to the Rockies north of CO and its hard to narrow down where their true origin. Trying to figure that out is specialized knowledge. Anything mostly about native American’s involves history and specialized knowledge.

    Wwwh, hoB and other things in the poem are about places and a path to take. Not enough emphasis is put on learning wwwh, that in itself there are many wwwh in the Rockies, so we need to learn why the only correct one will work. A comprehensive knowledge of geography is about understanding any map, which is also common knowledge.

    This also in the far future the treasures location can be figured out without the TTOTC and just using the poem and a map, simply by learning the correct starting point and hoB. How do you think F found the things in his vault and the dig and scuba diving a old shipwreck and the antiquities? He had to learn in any mannerism. F has said, paraphrasing, the first clue is difficult and the rest as you move through the clues becomes easier. He created the poem so even a redneck with 12 children can figure out.

    We also know there are no shortcuts to take and the path is direct for those who are confident, paraphrasing. F says also to not to over simply, but more or less at the same time he says to simply, paraphrasing. I again believe those that are over simplifying are working off biases of places where F was associated to. Then when he says to simplify is meant for those that are using extreme thoughts, such as using coordinates, in-depth studies of the history and using other books outside of the TTOTC and the poem to find clues.

    Then comes the saying on the bells, “Imagination is better than knowledge” is being drug into the fray as a need to use imagination for a way to solve the poem. Those bells are completely unrelated to the poem and buried 3 feet down to be hopefully found in the way distant future. I don’t recall F ever saying you need to use imagination to solve the poem. We can use whatIFs as a means to find reasonable answers and there is nothing imaginary about whatIFs, as it is merely questions.

    We need to learn the first clue and know it is the correct starting point and the rest can be found just by marring the rest of the poem to a map. All you need is the poem and a good map. Not having any guesses or convoluted theories from the start to the end I believe with get us to where the treasure is hidden, IMO will produce better results.

    I apologize for the long post, and it is just my thoughts and………

    Just Say’n IMO

      • Charlie,
        As usual, I’m traveling and dont have my quotes handy. However, I do believe there is a statement from FF saying that the first clue requires imagination. Does anyone have that handy?

        Secondly; I agree that heated waters in Yellowstone can not be called “warm”

        Thirdly, I agree about the Madison. Its flowing. Interestingly, I looked up definitions recently. According to dictionaries, creeks and rivers are waters that are flowing. Lakes or puddles are waters that are not in motion. So why is everyone so focused on rivers & creeks?

    • OUCH, that’s what happens when dry. Hey Charlie. The bells may very well be part of the big picture. His poems third line, “I can keep my secret where”, could go with the book, ” Tell you of my secret plan”, in which he goes on about his bells.Plus all the, ring my bell so I will know comments. But would f spend time burying a bell on the path? That’s a good question.It is a small object, but digging a 3 foot hole at 5000 to 10000 feet would be taxing. I believe the 8th clue hides a bell, just hard to imagine that he did just that. Would follow his stories though.

    • One thing to consider. At least it was for me. If I am traveling a long way for first BOTG, I at least want to search an area that 1. Fits the clues, and 2. I have some high degree of certainty that Mr. Fenn was there at least once, but preferably many times since the hidey location is after all very special to him. IMO. J.O.

      • Jeff;

        Other than the stories in Forrest’s Memoirs and an SB or two, how can you know that your search area is a place that Forrest has been too more than once? IF I hid a treasure, the LAST place I would hide it would be a place that I talk a lot about in my memoirs – or visa-versa If I were a searcher, the last place I would look would be a place that Forrest mentions repeatedly in his memoirs – That’s why I discounted the YNP area LONG ago – But that is JMO – JDA

        • I agree JDA. I dont think FF has talked much, if at all about the TC location. At least not in a way that anyone would recognize it unless they solve the poem. IMO

        • Most of the stories are in Temple Texas. He was 13 during the summer of 1944, his birthday being at the end of summer… when things turned yellow. He seems to have been in Miss Fords class only in 7th grade, but other comments refer to his dread of returning to her class, so he may have had her for two years. His mind stays around 13… Sept 1943 thru June 1934 was his Name Awareness year. A lot of the stories with Miss Ford have pictures of Fenn when he was much younger. Someone should make up a good time line of events.

        • Hi JDA,

          I agree, I don’t think it has to be a place he mentions repeatedly that might be too obvious but, if I have no indication he has ever even been “there” then I am definitely not flying from Atlanta, GA to go there.

          As an example, he has been to Cody many times not so much as a destination but traveling through on his way to Yellowstone and Cody has special meaning to him. So the TC may or may not be there but I would consider the Cody area a viable area to recon and do research.

          To my knowledge, he has not frequented areas in Colorado. He may have and I just don’t know, so I will certainly not fly myself to an area that I have no knowledge of him ever being there. His hidey spot is very special to him. I know you agree it’s not some random place, hope that makes sense. Jeff

          • I agree. One of the unwritten rules of following a treasure map is to learn what you can about the person who hid the treasure the map leads to. At the very least, it helps you understand how the person thinks, which may provide insight into understanding their map.

            I would not expect Forrest to discuss the WWWH or the hiding spot with any great frequency, but I do think the starting point is most likely someplace he has at least mentioned visiting, or at least close enough that it can be deduced based on his stories.

            Since I live in Colorado, I would love it if the TC was here. It would make BOTG ever so much easier. However, I don’t recall seeing any mention of my state in either TToTC or TFTW. Additionally, the few times I have seen any quotes of him commenting on a Colorado solve (such as the Silverton solve involving a church, I believe), his knowledge of Colorado’s geography seems to me to be rather limited, more typical of someone who occasionally passes through on the way to somewhere else rather than someone who has frequently had destinations in the state.

            I’m not ready to rule out New Mexico, but my money is on Montana or Wyoming, most likely somewhere between Bozeman, West Yellowstone, and Cody. I like the Paradise Valley area as a possible search area quite a lot, but there has been a ton of search activity there over the years. If it is (still) there, it is hidden pretty darn well.

  55. IMO we will be hearing sometime within a week that the chase is over. It’s not where I thought it was. The MILK….as high as an Elephants Eye! I’ll put money on it that there was a horse shoe involved too! All in my opinion…but watch the news, or as someone once said CNN, or is that FNN!!! Congratulations to Marcello & your team!

    • Deano: I think your pronouncement of the Chase’s end by McB/Marcello’s team is rather premature and ultimately destined to become “fake news.”

      • Wanna bet a shiney new nickle? Go back to your fox hole and think about your pie hole Zapparoo… BAHAHAH A

      • I might bet a “nickle” if I knew what one was. 😉

        So, how will you explain the lack of an announcement from Forrest come September 30th (“within a week” by your timetable)? Lessee, what are the usual excuses that are trotted out?

        1. He was at the right spot, but someone found it before him
        2. He knows where it is, but he needs a backhoe to dig it up
        3. He’s discovered it’s on private property, so he has to work out an arrangement with the property owner
        4. He’s found it but he’s decided not to tell anyone for tax reasons

    • Deano Bravo,

      Here we go again, CONJECTURE at this point, no facts.
      I wish folks would stop saying the treasure has been found even when its just an opinion. That’s how wild rumors get going.

  56. Could this be the “COLD” ?

    The following is from the Preface of Teepee Smoke from F’s site.
    http://www.oldsantafetradingco.com/assets/book-previews/teepee-smoke.pdf

    Interviews at Taos Pueblo with Joseph Sunhawk, Elkfoot, Hunting Son, Bawling Deer, all of
    whom had posed for Sharp before 1910, gave me a cherished glance
    backward to a time that came alive in their stories – though their sad
    smiles reflected the reality that passing years are a great equalizer that
    condemns all stories to the cold storage of time.

    • Ah, good thinking, luckydog! That’s certainly poetic, or shall I say, profound. I think that’s definitely a possibility.

  57. Idle Dreamer,
    Your comment above, reminded me of that quote from FF, “to my uncertain knowledge” no one has considered one important possibility related to the winning solve. Anyone have a thought as to what he meant by that? Please note that I am only actually quoting part of the statement and the rest is paraphrased.

    • Since Forrest does not know how all 350,000 searchers are looking at the poem, it is impossible for him to know – for certain – that no one is looking at an important possibility related to solving the poem. – That is how I read it – JMO – JDA

      • I concur. “Uncertain knowledge” implies the qualification that he does not know what every possible searcher is doing or thinking. Same as saying, “As far as I know…”

        It is the “important possibility” part of the quote that I find more intriguing.

        • Ray Henry,
          I wasnt questioning the “to my uncertain knowledge” part of the quote. Im interested in the possibility that as far as FF knew then, had not been considered. That is what I was asking. What does everyone think might be the possibility others have not considered?

          • Too many to choose from, IMO.

            Just a few that have occurred to me from time to time….

            What if … not all the clues have to be solved?
            What if … all the clues can be seen from WWWH?
            What if … knowing when to stop following clues is as important as knowing where to start?
            What if … the clues reveal the poem’s title and the title tells you exactly where the TC is hidden?
            What if … a “good map” is a railroad map?
            What if … the clues can all be solved by looking at a map that has no words on it? (the shapes matter, the words don’t)
            What if … the verbs don’t matter but the nouns do matter?
            What if … the locations of the clues are all mentioned by name in one or more of the books mentioned in TToTC in “Important Literature”?
            What if … the clues are all images in one big picture?

            What if … there is no spoon?

            Of course, Forrest’s “important possibility” is probably something else entirely.

          • Ray: even though “everything is on the table,” there certainly is no spoon on Bella Abzug’s table. 😉

    • I don’t know if I am the best person to answer this as my current combination lead me to what I believe is the blaze prior to WWWH. Forrest is quoted (part of the quote) “Although many have tried, I doubt that anyone will find the blaze before they have figured out the first clue. f ”

      https://mysteriouswritings.com/advice-from-forrest-fenn-on-how-to-find-his-treasure-chest-and-solve-his-poem-top-twenty-quotes/

      Like many on here I am either being stubborn, or just tenacious (I get those confused) and have a hard time giving up on a solve. Kind of like putting out a forest fire but taking the effort to watch every ember go extinct.

      As to what I think the combination is that will potentially lead the solver to the correct solve (I am leaning on +/- 100 feet as Zap noted GE isn’t that accurate) is the marriage of the book to a map (I do know Forrest says clues). I feel as though the book is the only way one could ever get close and that the poem alone is just an idle dream that never goes anywhere without context (WWWH).

      I suppose to go a tad bit into a previously mentioned point, the book tells us there are 9 clues because Forrest told us this via the book. The whole book is Forrest telling us (The written word is still listened to in our own minds) and the book itself is centered around the treasure. I currently believe the “So hear me all and listen good,” is telling us to go back to the book as the book as a whole will help answer the final clue.

      FYI Flutterby, I am a big subscriber of your peat moss logic (that was you right?). I also know there is a lot of oddities in what I wrote above and I may have likely left the poem on every occasion.

      • Yes Idle Dreamer,
        Peat moss and a natural forest fen, IMO is involved in the correct solve. I believe this partly due to the fact that FF said that regardless of bad grades and all, he would always have his name. This is not a direct quote. See Jump Start The Learning Curve

        • Also reminds me of JDA and the concept of Forrest bringing something up twice is important. Homely girl comes up twice in the book and is part of the answer he already knows (imo bcause I don’t have the book handy to write this better).

          • Idle Dreamer,

            Because I have a need to assign every item I think is a hint to mean something, I have decided “Foregive a sinner, and smile at homely girl” is what Mr. Fenn wants you to do when you find Indulgence.

            The phrase could be much more important but I couldn’t figure it out.

            So Mr Fenn wants forgiveness and Indulgence is the homely girl who will make you smile. Just MHO. Jeff

        • If you are ever in Missoula let me know as I definitely agree with you that it is also imo involved in the correct solve.

      • ID ~ ‘…as my current combination lead me to what I believe is the blaze prior to WWWH.

        fenn said he followed the clues…
        In a Q&A was asked; how far from the blaze if the chest… in short… the answer would be obvious…
        The blaze is in the middle of the poem, and the clues are to be followed consecutively in the poem…

        I’m just wondering [ with just those few comments ] how or why fenn would follow clues-?- if he would have to go by the blaze [ as you think; the blaze is prior to WWH ] If the chest is obviously know of from the blaze.
        So IF clues are 1-9 and the blaze [ for example is # 9] fenn would have no need to tell us he followed the clues “when he hid the chest” He wouldn’t need to if the blaze is before any of them… right?

        • Great point Seeker.
          I did leave out quite a bit. In my love of Bear Trap Canyon the quality was present that one could not simply come from any other direction. That is not a quality I have found elsewhere in very many places. My current solve does not have that feature but I did attempt to follow what I believe are the clues. After I found my blaze my WWWH changed because the original one didn’t amount to anything and I stumbled upon a better one (allowed me to cross the lines in a more promising way). I haven’t been successfully yet but I will keep trying. Plus you thankfully have given me a paradox that I need to think about.

          • ID ~ ‘After I found my blaze my WWWH changed because the original one didn’t amount to anything and I stumbled upon a better one (allowed me to cross the lines in a more promising way).’

            No offense.. but when I hear someone say ‘found’ blaze.. I have to wonder why they go looking for anything else?
            fenn said it would be a miracle to find the blaze without following the clues, but also said; IF you can find the blaze the distance to the chest would be obvious.

            Might it be, your first WWH was a better choice and ‘your’ blaze is wrong?

            I’m also reminded of fenn’s comment about ~most direct route.
            In your area, it seems to be the only route in and out [if I’m read it correctly]… That scares me a bit. The reason being; if it is a one way in and out, I would think more clues or later clues would have been found that would have actually lead someone right to the chest [depending on the size of this area].

            I mean, if it’s the only route to take, how hard are these clues that we can’t figure it out, see them, pick up a later clue when on site? For example; If true we figure out hoB we can go right to the chest ‘and’ IF we knew hoB why would we be concerned about WWH… I would think later clues would act the same way… like finding the correct HLnWH and go from there, IF..IF it’s all on the same and only route… right?

            LOL I could be reading your post wrong, but that is what I got from it.

          • Seeker,

            I don’t take offense as it honestly is the kind of conversations I wish I was having more of on a more frequent basis. I can’t really argue against anything you stated as it is of definite concern (enough that I need to back up and re-evaluate again).

            Just to note Bear Trap Canyon has that aspect of 1 way in 1 way out. My current solve doesn’t have that aspect. Plus I no longer believe the chest is at the blaze simple because it is right at the half way point of the poem. However, I obviously don’t have an obvious answer and that is a huge concern (and a big negative for my potential blaze).

            For others:
            “Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey

            Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help?f”
            http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-and-weekly-words-from-forrest-blaze-measurement/

            I still have a lot of questions that I don’t know the answer. Plus, I don’t feel like I know something others don’t but I do have ideas I keep to myself. Many of which end up being wrong and no one else is the wiser. I think my worse was 4+ hours of hiking just to see if this “B” looking thing was the blaze.

            https://www.google.com/maps/@45.1868197,-110.8256266,176m/data=!3m1!1e3

            On one topic, ” For example; If true we figure out hoB we can go right to the chest ‘and’ IF we knew hoB why would we be concerned about WWH… ” I subscribe to Zap’s belief on this topic that Forrest’s comments were more based on the asker asking a pointless question than being a serious response (I believe that was Zap). I don’t think knowing the HOB would give us the chest but it would narrow the search area to a single State and a considerably smaller area. Which did just give me an idea.

    • Hi Flutterby,

      Here is a followup Q&A from MW in regards to your quote above:

      Forrest, in the 2015 answers to six questions, you answered in part,“What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.” Is this statement still accurate? ~ Thanks, sumbuddy

      And Forrest answered: Yes sumbuddy, and that is why I recently suggested that searchers consider the what ifs.

      I gotta tell you, I have racked my brain on this one. And on Forrest’s original quote too. There has got to something here. There just has to be. IMO.

      Does anybody else have any ideas?

      Anybody ever really figure out what the what if’s are?

      The only “what if” that I can come up with is maybe our clue counts don’t matter much. And maybe we can still find the chest, even though our counts are all jacked up?

      I don’t know…maybe.

      All IMO.

      SRW

      • SRW,

        That last comment was 2015. Recently I posted a quote from ff that Sean Dobson made public a week or two ago in his you-tube show -the flip side-. It is a 3rd party quote but I think it applies to the ‘important possibility’ mystery. He was asked what would be a good topic for the show and he replied, ‘talk about a good clue that searchers can figure out for themselves but haven’t.’ (I think that was it).

        I don’t know what that is but I think he is challenging searchers to ask themselves questions. A simple one will be, why he forgot to name the poem? Is that something to keep in mind, like as we look into solving the poem we are giving it a title?

        • Thanks Oz10.

          I hadn’t seen that quote before.

          Hmmmmm. Forrest said: ‘talk about a good clue that searchers can figure out for themselves but haven’t.’

          I wonder to which clue Forrest could be talking about? I doubt that his statement above would refer to one of later clues, since most of us are still stuck at the beginning, as far as he knows. IMO.

          So by that reasoning, Forrest’s statement must be pointing to one of the earlier clues. IMO.

          Could he be talking about Stanza 1? No clues there, but Forrest does interchange the hints and clues words all the time?

          Hmmmmm.

          I’ll have to think on this one too.

          Thanks again Oz10,

          SRW

          • Hi Oz10,

            About what we were talking about the other day. The discussion topic. I wanted to let you know that I think I was wrong in my response. I didn’t see the connection to what Fenn said, but I can see it now. I would use that one Stanza 6. IMO.

            SRW

        • OZ10,
          I had not heard that quote, ” a good topic for the show and he replied, ‘talk about a good clue that searchers can figure out for themselves but haven’t.’ Thanks for sharing the quote. I think WWWH is a clue we can figure out ourselves. Its in the answers we already know and it is why a child can figure it out. IMO

          • Flutter, I’m not sure if that is the one. He did say a few have figure out the first 2 clues. I think it’s about something else.

      • I’m not going to go back forth from bog to blog and align the three ATF’s

        …But my mind tells me the first comment about the “important possibility” was on MW’s… the second comment about the “WhatIF’s” is on thin blog in a SB about throwing darts for clue 1. The third comment was a Q&A from ‘sumbody’ asking if the prior comment still stands true.

        It would seem that the important possibility relates to the start… no darts to be tossed…just the location, “beforehand”… and how that ‘possibility’ finally nails down the correct WWH and Why.

        • Seeker but how? How are we to know the location beforehand, you mean before we start solving the clues?

          • Two thinks come to mind, Oz.
            1, yes before the clues can be solved, the location should be known. [ the location that contains all nine clues ] “your destination is small but the location is huge” Does that mean size or of importance and know of?
            2. or a combination of parts of the poem the get help from the book that can produce ideas of the location.

            Example; and just for fun; Forrest Fire burned a map in the L&C story. IS it the right map-?- location? I mean, why was fenn surprised when folks went right to looking at maps… Could the whole thing be retracing fenn’s and Donni’s travel [ in part ]? Two can keep a secret if one is dead… and not so much the history of the L&C adventures. The book would not be needed for decipher specifically, just understanding which map is a good map and / or GE. and a place to start understanding WWH

            So the book helped with the clues [ all the clues, line of thinking ] as to their location… then we need to decipher / marry /couple them, fix them together… in theory

            Kinda saying; why didn’t I think of that? or what took me so long?

            No need for history
            No need for the map, really
            Just a story told of two young guys out and about in the 1940’s, should be enough to read and lead to an idea.

            All Hypothetical, but still logical…

          • Seeker,

            Some maps are better than others. For example Brownie Lake appears on one but doesn’t appear on Google Maps or all trails.

          • Seeker, if we were to agree that we need to understand or ‘know’ the location where the clues live before we solve them and look at the big picture, how do we get that info? I mean, we all memorized the poem and many have memorized the ttotc book and after all these years everyone is trying to marry the clues and the poem to a map based on their individual understandings. If we were to point to a place in the Rockies that mirrors the poem, how to do that without it being a toss of a dart?

            What are the things that we are not ‘thinking’ in regards to that location? We have to start somewhere, one thing at a time.

        • I’m not super sure Seeker. He said in part…”important possibility related to the winning solve”. Not so much important possibility related to the start. IMO.

          I don’t know on this one.

          By the way…I did answer your question of the day. Didn’t know if you’d caught it yet or not.

          All IMO.

          SRW

          • Ha! Yep, read the answer of the day…

            Don’t get me wrong… there is some stomping involved. Only i’m not sure we need to move that much. The most obvious movement is to walk to a location of the clues. The next ‘steps’ is getting to the location of the blaze. The final stepping is to the chest. In this case, the traveling is limited because I think we/many read parts of the poem as movement rather than observation.

            We know fenn tells us to think and analyze. Kinda obvious with a poem that holds clues… yet, he tells us to plan and observe, and the solve will most likely be done through imagination…

            “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking. Sure, I mean, people have figure the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”

            Well, couple of clues out of 9 seems to relate to the first two clues, idea. To walk by the chest, we would need to walk by / go by all the clues and/or leave the poem [ physically ]. I think, to keep both comments as true as possible… limited movement / stomping is needed.

            It seems to me that there might be only three ‘places’ we need to move to or from, and it might be more for observing, rather than, going to a point.

          • Morning all,

            Seeker, you said: “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking. Sure, I mean, people have figure the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”

            This makes me think that if folks are walking past the treasure chest, then to your point, it is likely that they failed to observe. IMO.

            And, if they’re walking past the treasure chest then those folks have walked too far. Wherever those people went, they failed to notice clue 3, clue 5, clue 6, clue 7 and beyond. Yep, they walked right on past the whole shebang. IMO.

            It all kind of goes back to “needing to think the right things” (paraphrasing) I think. IMO.

            SRW

          • I am trying to visualize your scenario Seeker and make Fenn’s comments make sense. I understand your premise that the whole shebang may not involve considerable movement…and yet…this does not really add up. If wwh is your first clue in this scenario…what is your second clue? Is it the act of visually *taking in the view*? If so, is it also your premise that the folks who figured/deciphered the first two clues told Fenn they were taking in the view? Or maybe they had no choice because of *where*they were? If these folks went/walked past the other seven clues…was it because they already went by them on the way to *wwh*… or did they travel further along before they left the poem? In this scenario…that would not be possible would it? Or in your scenario…because there may only be three distinct places…wwwh, blaze, hide….along the *most direct* path, they were further along in the clues/poem and Fenn just did not say that? Just Q’s…not debunking your thought/s…more just visualizing.

          • Ken,

            Hypothetically, searcher are at WWH and at the canyon down simultaneously. I don’t think the canyon down is a dramatic / steep of a place as some other searcher’s area… so keep that in mind while thinking about this.

            So it’s possible that while at, whatever WWH refers to, we view down in whatever direction / south looking at a map, idea, or simply elevation.

            “Put in” would mean the same as “take it in” seeing /finding hoB -or- put in could be where WWH puts in the canyon and both are below the hoB already. So we have 3 maybe 4 clues and all from one location so far, right?

            HoB could also be a place that gives us the “end” or viewing how far to look.

            Now imagine “from there” is still ‘where you are at.’ [ keep in mind, I think ‘where you are at is a specific ‘point’ at WWH, for viewing.]
            Stanza three is describing what you see… the end [ far end ] is ever drawing nigh [near to you] The creek or narrow passage is working/flowing it’s way to you. Still no movement from the searcher.

            Just HLnW, could be two things. Something we spot as we look from the far end towards us, or it can be a description of WWH and where you are “just” stand at. LOL in theory. [ a helpful idea of what WWH might refer to, involving heavy loads ]

            OK so why did folks ‘leave the poem’? The obvious answers is the went looking for clues somewhere else… They kept going in a stomp mode… with no observation of anything [never finding the right spot /point].
            How did some get to the 500′ mark or the 200′ mark? My idea is they were not at the exact ‘point’ to be at, at wwwh and the canyon down. So their movement to where they were heading took them by all the clues and at some point close by, the chest.

            The *critical idea* to this is; to be in the correct “fixed” position at WWH and Canyon down for observing what is being told of from the poem. [ so movement at WWWh is probably a must to locate that viewing station… hence nailing it down. Most if not all the clues can refer to places… I just don’t think we need to go to them.

            OK, how do we find the ‘blaze’? Well, like i said, we need to be in a certain fixed spot at WWH and that canyon… I think most if not all, never actually found that spot… they only deciphered the clue[s], indicated the place to fenn and did not understand the ‘instructions.’

            IF you’ve been wise [ something done before the blaze. Wise as in; thinking the right thoughts ] and ‘found’ the blaze… or discovering it spot, by discovering WWH specific fixed spot to be at… look quickly down. Why Quickly? Well, fenn has you looking down twice, right? [in this scenario].

            Look up quickly… all it usages… and ya may get the gist.

            LOL, now all I need to to figure out what the heck WWH is, and I’m golden.
            In theory, but not in practice…

            ~Marry the clues [ all the clues ] to ‘A’ place on a map /or GE.
            ~Nail down the first clue or stay home.
            ~Folks left the poem. Moved on.
            ~If you don’t have WWH you don’t have anything… which also seems to imply… no chance of finding hoB without the correct WWH ‘spot.’ Cuz if ya did know hoB, you would have to know of WWH, line of thinking.
            ~Walked less than a few ‘miles’ twice, [maybe a 1/4 mile from the parked vehicle-?- to get to WWH]
            ~Done in one afternoon … This one has another reason for Look quickly down, but i won’t get into it now.
            ~There is no switching back to WWH, ya basically never left it.

            Only a theory on reading the poem, without; driving clues, or nuking the planet or climbing trees or looking for deeded private property… and no reason to walk long distances… or go where an 80 yr old can’t, twice, carrying a heavy backpack.

            THAT’s a small scale ‘general’ solve… in a huge place.

          • Seeker,

            In your hypothetical scenario above, and in knocking out maybe 3 or 4 clues all at a starting location, how do resolve the following Q&A from MW:

            Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse engineer where warm waters halt? Ben Raylor

            And Fenn answered: Thanks for the question Ben.

            If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck. f.

            This answer from Fenn is the one statement that makes me think that once we have figured out WWWH, and after fully executing clue #1, we’re done with it.

            Seems like once we’ve located HOB, WWWH is history.

            Just curious how you resolve this one.

            All IMO.

            SRW

          • SWR,
            My thoughts, and that’s about all I have…
            You won’t find or get to hoB without WWH.

            I basically gave two scenarios to this;
            1. WWH is put in below hoB. Even though hoB come later in that stanza.. the line / sentences is a stand alone piece of info. I think it’s could be saying the same as; start at the statue of Liberty put in below NYC. It give us a location of WWH.
            2. hoB is possibly where the “end” in ever drawing from to near where you are at. Drawing in this case means pulling or flowing from, and all is being done through NPFTM. So knowing hoB still must be seen only from WWH’s.

            “…If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?”

            My thought is, you wouldn’t be ‘concerned’ about it… you would already, and had to have, known of WWH.
            Otherwise, the nailing down wwwh or stay home, comment[s] have no real truth IF we can find later clues and work from them, “beforehand.”

            Fenn made a comment about folks driving down the road looking for the blaze, said; that would be a miracle if they did… and we have to start with the first clue or we have nothing.
            fenn also said in a Q&A [ and I’m paraphrasing these comments, I’m sure you have read them ] Can the clues be found [situ] at home; yes, in theory, but not in practice.
            Then we have the comment, marry the clues [ imo all the clues ] to “A place” on a map. So technically, finding the clues on a map would be by finding where WWH is, because i think all the clues revolve around WWH as in my explanation.
            The clues are contiguous or ‘touching, coupled, joined’ in such a way, that it is all the same landscape… not different places and/or miles apart.

            Call it a system, for lack of a better term. Or synergy; the whole is greater than its part, line of thinking.

            Otherwise… I might has well start looking for HLnWH and just go from there… right?

          • Thanks Seeker for explaining that.

            I do understand a bit, I think, about how you’re going about your solve.

            In your 1st scenario: 1. WWH is put in below hoB. Even though hoB comes later in that stanza.. the line / sentences is a stand alone piece of info…

            I can see where this scenario can be true. And at my location, this event does occur, eventually, in regards to the waters. IMO.

            In scenario number 2 you said: hoB is possibly where the “end” is ever drawing from to near where you are at. Drawing in this case means pulling or flowing from, and all is being done through NPFTM. So knowing hoB still must be seen only from WWH’s.

            Ummmm. All I’ve got for this one is the thought that HOB must be known. I’ll agree with your scenario on that. I also think that it is likely that whatever meek and TEIEDN is probably also there too. The only difference that I see is that I personally go to my HOB and in your scenario, you don’t. IMO.

            You also said: Fenn made a comment about folks driving down the road looking for the blaze, said; that would be a miracle if they did…

            My takeaway from this comment. Driving. The thing is, we’re not looking for the blaze yet. Still looking for previous clues. IMO.

            Lastly you said: The clues are contiguous or ‘touching, coupled, joined’ in such a way, that it is all the same landscape… not different places and/or miles apart.

            All I can think of is this (in regards to the original quote that we were talking about): What are you going to do with all of that extra gas money?

            I forgot, and you said this too: Otherwise… I might has well start looking for HLnWH and just go from there… right?

            No…no, no, no. LOL!

            All IMO

            SRW

          • Still trying to process this *viewing* idea as you presented Seeker. Early in my Chase days I had a similar opinion…but the specifics were quite different. Your theory presents that a searcher has arrived at wwwh, clue one…and includes canyon down *simultaneously*( not sure if that was clue two for you?). If I did not have better options/judgement, I could almost go along with that. The fuzzy part is where you imply that at that juncture(in your scenario) three or four clues are at the same location(or just viewing them from there). And then(if I get what you are saying) one could visualize the rest of the clues… up to? the location where the blaze may be? I’m assuming that is where (in your scenario) *location* number two comes into play. Then you skip around a bit too much to follow clearly…but pick up again about finding the blaze by being in the right spot or doing something previous(being wise) somehow. I did read your *wise and found* explanation way down thread…I can’t tie it to what you are presenting here though. I dunno Seeker…I think this one needs some *adjustment* because it sounds like it does not fit the “adventure” billing Fenn has talked about. Kind of seems like a lot of standing around looking for answers. However…I still like the premise and use it myself as a measuring stick so to speak. I think you should stick with it…who knows?

          • Ken,

            HA! Don’t take each of my post to relate to a single theory or idea. I sit on the fence looking at all sides. So if one post doesn’t jive with another, it’s more than likely, I’m just having another idea… and combine it with other ideas.

            Let’s look at it this way [ this post ]; You’re stand at the observation deck of the empire state building [ call it WWH ] the view is down.. what you see is what you get, line of thinking. You now need to figure out what is what and how it unfolds.

            The main point I was attempting to make with this scenario was; You may need to move about the observation deck to get just the right view… by doing so.. the clues would come right to you, so to speak. This would place you in the exact spot you are looking for. The blaze location. { this could be why folks came within 500′ of the chest, went by the seven remaining clues, walked past the treasure chest }
            They we not looking for all the clues, they were more than likely in stomping mode trying to get somewhere else.

            Why would fenn need to follow his own clues [ clues he created from memory ]? I think he needed to align them in a *specific point* ‘at’ his special place… hence wise and found the blaze; discovering ~ where it is by using the clues – line of sight – from the blaze. But you may not have known it was the blaze, until all the clues came into view.

            I think hoB is the kicker for this scenario. Without it, you haven’t “nailed” down WWH. If you find it, why would you be concerned about WWH, you wouldn’t, you would know for sure you have the correct one of the many… and now all your doing is “following” the clues to / from the blaze.

            Why won’t we find the chest without nailing down WWH? Because the blaze is at WWH. { this also depends on what WWH actually refers to, and size }

            This is a ‘reading only’ [thinking the right thoughts] of the poem, in the attempt to not ‘think’ of a stomping out clues method. It attempts to keep the ATF’s as true as possible to each other, no conflict [ hopefully ] logical, and “precise”.
            However, this could only work if fenn used the clues the same way. I think he didn’t have a “specific,” “exact 10 inch spot” to start. He had a very well known [ to him ] area he want to be at… the clues created the “spot” for the hide… he completed [?] the poem in the field. He completed it by having his own clues point to it [the hide], from memory.

            I’m simply saying… If he was standing at the chest… this is what he would see. His poem unfolding.

            So look at the poem again, Stanza 2 gives us a place to be at. I think clue two is combined by its natural setting… yet we still need a specific spot using them. The line PIBTHOB is a key point to “focus” on [ see what I did there, lol ]
            Stanza three is what you see in-between “leading’ back to you. The clues “lead’ you to the blaze point/spot to be discovered.

            If you can find the blaze, the distance to the chest would be obvious… without WWH being nailed down, a “fixed” position, you’ll never find the blaze… you won’t even know it is ‘a’ blaze [marker] without “all” the clues.

            That’s the closest reading I can get, in “trying” to simplifying the clues. But, it all relates to; “certainty of the location beforehand”… of the direct path.

            Ok, before someone say… wait Seeker, fenn parked his car and followed the clues, said he took the same route in and out because it was the most direct route.. Yep, he just walked, whatever distance needed, to get from where he parked to WWH and the other clues.

            Did I miss any prudent ATF?
            Oh! {paraphrasing}… *an 80 yr old is not going down and up and down a canyon..* Well, I’m not gonna either.
            *marry [couple, link together] the clues [ all the clues ] to “A” place on a map.

            Did that help with the Fuzzies, Ken?

          • Nope…Still a lot of smoke Seeker. I’m still not seeing the concept of *follow* and/or *precisely* in that picture. The poem has to *lead* someone/searcher through the parade with a *certain* precision.
            This last from you put me on the observation deck of Empire Building…and I thought it wasn’t supposed to be something as precipitous or steep? Anyways…you still have not satisfied the ATF(I don’t think)… especially how folks *deciphered* the first two clues and went by the remaining clues…unless they told him about running in circles in the area! HA ha…

            Early in the Chase my concept was a viewing of the overall search target where I needed to visualize all of the clues…start, to where the no paddle creek was/is. Then, visualize what lay beyond. At that point I went to the start and proceeded. No dice for that particular location beyond looking for a blaze, with some possibilities though. I moved on….but return in my mind to that scenario to weigh things out. All of the big picture, follow in order etc. comments came after these attempts. At this juncture I believe the clues to be locations…deciphered from the consequences of one clue leading a searcher to the next. I just see that there is a more logical level of precision with this method. However…I still use the overall *big picture* idea because I believe that concept is the answer to the entire riddle. Personally…I also think Fenn knew/knows his special spot enough to carry out creating the poem entirely without having to align or make up stuff along the way in the field. To me…this jives more betterer with his *complete/completed* comment. Maybe not. If one couples that one with other comments…I think it does. I still think you should keep going with that *view* though…it could pan out for you eventually.

            Follow; go along a route or path… as a logical consequence. Precisely

          • Ken,

            I don’t know how to explain it better, other than, my use of “follow and lead” is more in line with understanding / analyzing and observation, rather than being pulled on a leash… That is only good IF you need this to be a ‘stomping out’ point to point solve.

            I’m still using a point to point idea for each clue’s reference and their place… I just don’t need to be at all of them. But I need to see them.

            NF – to see it
            TFTW – no need to walk to it.

            No need for wading a creek. No paddling a blowup dingy, no reason to go to a place- not for the meek, no need to be ‘at’ hoB…. “JUST” @ HLnWH / WWH.

            I don’t think many will be able to wrap their heads around this idea [ especially if two/three clues could refer to the same ‘reference’ / location for different reasons ]… for the simple fact… most can’t let go a point to point solve that ‘needs you at each point.’

            Your “destination” is small, but the “location” is huge… I did both; viewed from small destination of a huge location, from a single point.
            We’re not looking for the chest’s hidey spot… we’re looking for the “blaze”

          • Seeker,

            You said: We’re not looking for the chest’s hidey spot… we’re looking for the “blaze”

            Sorry, I couldn’t resist. I’m looking for for the chest’s hidey spot. LOL!

            IMO.

            SRW

          • Seeker;

            I like your “JUST” @ HLnWH / WWH.”

            I am sure that most people have trouble equating HLnWH with WWH, but in my solve – It works.

            My HLnWH are in fact one. At one time you could even throw in the Blaze. Today I see it not as the Blaze but rather as HLnWH. I have a “Theme” that relates to a time gone by, and this is where the WWH comes in. This “theme” unifies the HL, the WH and the WWH concept. I know, it is confusing. Wish I could explain it better, without giving away my solve. HLnWH “point to” a smaller Blaze, that relates to WWH – or did a long time ago./

            I give up – too hard to explain – but it DOES make sense – really – JDA

          • Seeker;

            I agree – We are not looking for the hidey spot – we ARE looking for the Blaze. Forrest once said something like – If you have found the blaze, the distance to the chest will be obvious – or something like that. I don’t HAVE to find the hidey spot – Once I find the blaze – finding the hidey spot will be obvious – and very close-by – JMO – JDA

          • Hi JDA: I actually have a different take that probably won’t be very popular: even if a searcher figures out what the blaze is, finding the chest (by looking quickly down) is not a foregone conclusion. Simply knowing the identity of the blaze is not by itself enough to find Indulgence, in my opinion.

          • Hi JDA,

            I’d like to chime in here if you don’t mind.

            You said: I agree – We are not looking for the hidey spot – we ARE looking for the Blaze. Forrest once said something like – If you have found the blaze, the distance to the chest will be obvious – or something like that. I don’t HAVE to find the hidey spot – Once I find the blaze – finding the hidey spot will be obvious – and very close-by – JMO – JDA

            I do get what both you and Seeker are saying about finding the blaze/hidey spot at the same time. But, I think this scenario only works to the extent that a persons individual solve ends at “just take the chest and go in peace”.

            Fenn has also been quoted as saying in part: …You cannot solve the problem by starting in the middle of the poem…when referring to the blaze.

            This comment would indicate to me that:

            1. The blaze is a clue. IMO.

            and

            2. The blaze is a clue in the middle of the poem. IMO.

            So for me, after finding the blaze, there are still a few more clues for me to process. IMO.

            But I do agree with you on this: If you have found the blaze, the distance to the chest will be obvious. Yep. That one is crystal clear. IMO.

            All IMO.

            SRW

          • Zap ~’Simply knowing the identity of the blaze is not by itself enough to find Indulgence’

            I follow the same premise.
            I think there is more to it than ‘pop’ there’s the chest.
            But I also think the blaze is not know of, yet is told about. Simply put, you need all the clues to discover the blaze.
            So, the blaze can be found in the poem, but the poem may not say what it is, and the blaze [obviously] is in the field, but field work is needed to know it.

            I said up thread, or down, I can’t remember now… folks could have walked right by the blaze or close enough to have seen it… and not even know it is a blaze. But that is strictly a hypothetical analyzes.

          • SWR,

            In all honesty, I’m looking for location of all the clues first and foremost. I have no idea how to find the correct wwh, out of the many, spread over the RM’s range, any other way… without tossing darts.

          • Seeker,

            You said: In all honesty, I’m looking for location of all the clues first and foremost. I have no idea how to find the correct wwh, out of the many, spread over the RM’s range, any other way… without tossing darts.

            I understand exactly what you are saying. It is very hard to say something, on a public forum, without giving everything away. But, I can offer this one suggestion to you. Please keep in mind that I could be totally wrong too…so please take this with a grain of salt and a beer if you need to.

            I think that the answer that you are looking for probably lies somewhere in the 1st Stanza. I believe there is a viable hint there…and maybe even more. And, you have commented on it before. Heck, you’ve even said the word before too! IMO.

            Anyways, you’ve said something to the effect of: if nearly all are north of Santa Fe, then some must be …..? or something like that. When you said that I thought yep…he’s got this one figured out. Anyways, what you did say though, I think, was true. Maybe take another look at that thought. IMO.

            Also, if you can find your magic word, it might help to narrow your search area down even further. A simple google search will provide the following results for each state: just a handful of places, none in one state and NEARLY all north of Santa Fe. The big picture applies here. You have to find that before you can start looking for the little stuff. IMO.

            Lastly, going back to Stanza 1. Consider trying to solve each line, independently, from the next line. Question each line. He went alone…where did he go alone? In there…where in there? He went alone in there…where? His mind? His thoughts? Time? Jail? The toilet? Confession? The library? Walmart? Where…where did he go alone? But keep this in mind: wherever he went…he went with his treasures bold!

            I don’t know. Maybe this helps…maybe it doesn’t. Anyways, just a few thoughts to ponder on for the day.

            Good luck.

            All IMO.

            SRW

          • “I want sweaty bodies out there looking for my treasure…they just have to find the clues.”
            “The clues will *lead* you to the treasure and whether it is buried or not, you can *find* it if you can *find* the blaze as a result of starting with the first clue. That’s what you have to do.”
            “But if you can find the treasure chest it won’t be a big job for you to get it.”
            I think there will be a moment of disbelief/shock when the blaze is discovered…

          • This thread is getting so long, if you wrapped it up in a ball it wouldn’t fi through the bedroom door!

            Zap, of course not. You must “been wise” AND “found the blaze”.

            Found the blaze alone will not suffice.

          • JDA said…I am sure that most people have trouble equating HLnWH with WWH, but in my solve – It works.

            It works for me too. An interesting point about that, if true, is it’s waters in the wwwh and water in the wh (water high)…so interchangeable.

          • Seeker said…Simply put, you need all the clues to discover the blaze.

            I hav e a tough time believing this is the mechanism used to uncover the blaze. That’s because f has given us his definition of a clue.

            For example, the first clue can’t help get us closer to clue two “and” get us closer to the blaze clue at the same time. Same with clue 2, 3, 4 and so on. It’s a concept of clues can’t jump other clues since they are consecutive. IMO

      • What if all 9 clues are contiguous but never touch land. I know that’s not an earth shattering concept but I do have a general solution like that. Just throwing something out to help the conversation. Jeff

      • SRW, the hint/clue in the 6th stanza is not dependant on the others in your opinion?

        If they are contiguous then…

        • Hi Oz10,

          I think they’re contiguous. But it is a separate one. But it leads to the next one. I think at this point in the poem, the searcher is very close. Not much left to figure out from here on out. IMO.

          SRW

          • Hi Oz10,

            I kinda think that each clue has to be figured out, somewhat independently from the last, in order to keep moving forward. I think we can do this and still maintain the contiguous part (one foot on top of the other comes to mind). I believe that one clue will lead to the next clue and the next clue will lead to the next clue line of thinking. Forward. Straightforward. IMO.

            And about the searchers. I don’t think they made it that far in the poem. I think they’re stuck elsewhere in the poem. IMO.

            SRW

        • Well, if that good clue is not one of these, then what is it?

          1. figuring out that last stanza first
          2. answering the question given in the 5th
          3. figuring out why it is ‘our creek’
          4. how did we become ‘wise’ and ‘found’ the blaze from reading the previous 3 stanzas
          5. figuring out what else could be ‘it’ or ‘I’ in the poem

          • Hi Oz10,

            Sorry. I think none of the above. But I could be wrong. IMO.

            I think it’s more like the finale. The last clue. The last location. The final steps to the chest. Here’s why:

            Forrest said: “Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. Otherwise you have a “general solve.” What do you think? f.

            Here’s my thought. Several steps? We’ve run out of poem. There are no more to do’s. There’s no more information. There’s no where left to go. There’s nothing left to do but to stuff that puppy in your backpack and get on down the road. LOL. IMO.

            SRW

          • Hi Oz10,

            I reread your post from above. And a bunch of thoughts popped into my head. Let me see if I can answer some of your thoughts in your list. And these are all IMO plus we gotta have some fun.

            1. figuring out that last stanza first

            Nope. That would be messing with the poem. IMO.

            2. answering the question given in the 5th

            Nope. Funny. You made me think of pleading the 5th. LOL.

            3. figuring out why it is ‘our creek’

            Nope. You should already know this one. IMO.

            4. how did we become ‘wise’ and ‘found’ the blaze from reading the previous 3 stanzas.

            Maybe. But you should have already been. IMO.

            5. figuring out what else could be ‘it’ or ‘I’ in the poem.

            Nope. We have already figured those out. Done with those. IMO.

            Anyways. Some light humor and some of my thoughts too.

            All IMO.

            SRW

          • Hi Aaron.

            You asked: So SRW, what are your answers to I and it? Let me guess, Forrest Fenn and the quest?

            Most likely yes on the first one and nope on the second one. Seems to make the most sense to me, but I could be wrong. But ya gotta start somewhere. IMO.

            SRW

        • Hard to believe that the chest wouldn’t be found if the poem should be read in a way that makes the most sense.

          • What ‘it’ is, is something I have been working on. I don’t know yet. I believe the i and the it are closely related and important.

            I don’t know if there is a where for it yet, as in a location on a map. I’ve decided to steer clear of maps till I understand it better. I have found some interesting information in studying the poem though. Not sure if it is a coincidence yet though.

          • Hi Aaron,

            Thanks for your response. I’m not super sure on anything either, yet. Stabbing at it like everybody else. But, like you, I’ve also got a few ideas as to what I think “it” might be. I don’t think “it” refers to the quest though. IMO.

            I think the “I” might be personal to Fenn.

            Just trying to get some ideas floating around out there. IMO.

            Good luck to you.

            SRW

    • Flutterby, on a guess, I would say that one important possibility that no one has considered is that not all the clues can be solved. He never needed to tell us there were 9 clues. Follow the poem precisely thinking. With saying there are 9 clues is not a clue, it’s a mirror so-to-speak. It reflects that there are 9 clues to be solved, but in reality, there are 9 clues to be deciphered. The one thing, I believe, that searchers do not realize that the info to “solve” all the clues is not out there. He has said as much. If he actually told us where the 9 clues are in the poem, like the first one, then maybe we could solve all the clues, but in doing something like that, to make it difficult, he probably would not provide info to solve such clues. Guessing at what a clue is, is hard enough. Trying to solve without the correct info, almost impossible. IMO, the sooner searchers forget about the clues and find a niche into solving the poem, the better they will be, because the one thing that a lot of searchers have not considered is that you can’t solve all the clues.
      Question, do you think you could find the chest without finding the blaze? My answer would be, yes…

      • Charlie,
        You have my attention. You think you can solve the poem or find the TC without finding the blaze? Curious why you say that.

        I wont allow myself to count clues. I think the poem must be understood first, in order to even have any idea what the clues are.

        • Flutterby, I agree. Trying to count clues or solve them individually takes a searcher away from trying to solve the poem, IMO. That’s not to say all of them, there are just some that can’t be solved with the poem, IMO.
          As far as the blaze, I don’t have my old notes on the subject, but I DO remember f saying something in line with the blaze was meant to throw off a searcher. I can’t find the quote any longer, I can’t prove he said it, but I know what I heard. I remember him standing with a female interviewer when discussing it. I can’t quote him, I can’t give any info to the fact, but I know, the blaze is something unordinary. With that said, the blaze seems to go hand and hand with marvel gaze. Marvel gaze, to me, seems to actually be something, because of the wording, we are to tarry scant with it. It could just be an amazing sight, and that’s all, but I don’t think so. It’s a hint, we are to do something “with” it, tarry scant. It’s a hint because it is below the blaze, and something will be taken from it. Hence, look quickly down, just take, etc…
          I don’t think that marvel gaze get’s you closer to the chest, it , if a searcher is right, confirms the blaze. So, initially, it is marvel gaze that a searcher will see first. And if you are seeing that first, then the blaze above it must be camouflaged some way. Since we must be wise to find it.
          If a searcher has the end spot, and mapped his path from that, then it is getting to that spot that is important, the clues are more like way-points. To confirm your path, so, I wouldn’t need to see the blaze if I’m trying to get to a spot that is farther down the path. There are hints to it, but nothing anywhere explains what the blaze looks like.
          Forrest has to know that eventually, everything can be or will be destroyed or demolished, or just rot. The search is meant to last a thousand years. With development, population booms, deteriorating eco systems, and such, along with the fact that you will be out in the forest, It’s most likely things will change, and like he said, it will be tougher to find farther in the future, but it still could be found. To me, this says that you will be solving for a spot, and not each, individual clue. I mean, ‘what-if”, what if the blaze is destroyed, it may not be feasible, but what if it is? F would have thought of that. If it was destroyed, you still could find the chest. So, you could find the chest without ever seeing the blaze, IMO.

          • If you don’t know what/where the blaze is, you have a
            greatly diminished chance of finding the chest, compared
            to your chance if knowing. IMO, don’tcha KNOW . . .

          • I never said you wouldn’t know what or where the blaze is. Of course you would know. All I said is that it is possible to never see the blaze and still find the chest. For me, yes I know, or at least think I do. I’m approaching from the notion of a first solve, first BotG, found the chest idea. It is possible that the searcher would not see the blaze but still find the chest. I will use mine as an example.
            https://ibb.co/gjJ3Cm
            You can’t see the blaze, you must be wise into other things f has done to see it. You can see the marvel gaze no problem. The thing is, for me, this spot has coordinates, there back-up. So, even if this whole area is destroyed, wouldn’t matter. And that is another point, the end has it’s own set of coordinates. It’s from that spot that you could draw out your path, and see where to start. When I go out, I could walk right by this spot, I’m not going there, I’m going to the end of my path. Same holds true for a lucky first timer who solves the poem. They wouldn’t care about the blaze, they care about the final spot they need to reach. Of course, finding the clues on your path will come to play, if not, wrong path.
            Seeing the blaze is like being told you are on the right path. Like this blaze did. But like this one, if a searcher had the same solve, came up to this campfire, continued on with the next clue and the next, they might not have ever seen the blaze, it still would not have mattered.

  58. I wondered if anyone had a specific idea about the “important possibility”. I agree that FF couldnt possibly know how so many people are looking at the poem. But there must be something unique about the way to use the poem to arrive at the correct solve. IMO
    What is unique about it? I personally dont think that guessing WWWH is the answer.

    • Maybe all 9 clues are connected by water. Just spitballing. Has someone ever suggested that one?

    • Are you still wondering if anyone had a specific idea about the “important
      possibility”? I never wondered about this. I don’t think anybody who has been
      within twelve feet of the TC in the last 7 years has specifically wondered the
      same thing.

      What I wonder about is whether more than 2 people know the color of the
      “oval” thing within 40 feet of the TC.

      As always, in my opinion (that’s like onion with pi inside IT).

  59. “Although many have tried, I doubt that anyone will find the blaze before they have figured out the first clue. f ”

    “You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. f” Several means more than 2 but…

      • SRW,

        On that second comment, do you take it as one will have figured out the blaze before leaving home with the correct solve?

        • Oz10,

          The comment about having the “correct solve” and “several steps”?

          If that is the one we’re talking about, here’s my take.

          I have been to my search site several times. And it has taken those few times to help figure everything out (what I think are the clues).

          Anyways, Having been at my site, I do think that I have found the blaze (at least I’m hoping so). And now that I think I know what and where it is, it is on a map. But, I would never have recognized it if I hadn’t been on site those few times. IMO.

          Google earth does help, and I can see it now on GE, but it is not the same thing as being there in person. IMO.

          All IMO.

          SRW

  60. to start at wwwh is to start at the bottom of the canyon – canyon down- then you take it in – take it in is a direction not far but to far to walk to home of brown from where you start at canyon down- in other words canyon down and wwwh is the same place imo

      • Similar to your thinking, seems like everyone is going down stream or in southern direction in a canyon but what if WWWH was south of the canyon and down stream from the canyon. And canyon down was simply a calapsed canyon? That’s not in my solution but Mr. Fenn’s mother passed away at western Madison junction (I think?) which could be interpreted as WWWH and just upstream and north of there is a canyon down (calapsed).

        • Jeff – for me there is no south – there is nothing south of home of brown – and there is nothing south of wwwh – from wwh you go west to hob from there you go north to the rest of the clues – wwwh its at the bottom of the canyon so put in below hob is also the bottom of the canyon – canyon down is also at the bottom of the canyon and all these clues are where wwwh is and that is the beginning all these clues do not go in different ways they belong at the bottom of the canyon with wwwh imo

      • Frank, I find it handy to check the on-line etymology dictionary for most words… for instance all the ‘down’ associations add a little flesh to my mental pictures of possible ‘down’ places. I think it was while reading ALL the content on ‘halt’ a few months ago that I read an example using the phrase ‘nail down.’ Whisper and What-if also showed up in etymology searches. Many of Fenn’s ATF hints seem to me to be word roots more than geographical hints, but that may be because I do not have access to the Chase geography. OS2

        • I like the online etymology dictionaries also. Never thought to look up “What If”. Now Im curious about it. Gonna look it up

          • Flutterby, I wasn’t looking up ‘what if’… it was in one of the examples way down the line of examples for something else I had looked up. The examples can get pretty off-trail but can be quite interesting. I’m a little freaky that way. OS2

    • Every time I click on the link, my computer crashes. (For what it’s worth) . . .
      Yeah, this is “in my opinion”.

  61. Seeker,
    Obviously Ive missed or forgotten something. You say FF was surprised when people first went to maps? This is of interest to me because Ive wondered if the “to my uncertain knowledge” comment about not being aware of one possibility related to the winning solve, might be this. “What if” the first clue or two are not on a map but thinking about them leads your thought process to a place on a map?

    • I will admit that I am surprised he would be surprised that people would go straight to maps. As soon as someone thinks of finding a hidden treasure, the natural reaction is to think, “It is hidden in a place. You find places on maps. I need a map.”

      Clearly, there is something else that he expected people to get wise to first, and we have done the unexpected by missing that thing. The person who thinks of that thing may have an advantage over everyone else.

      So, after all these years, all these searchers, and all these unfruitful solves, the real question, and one I don’t think you will find answered here, is the question of, “What are we *all* missing?”

      I think it is something so obvious that it is hiding in plain sight. It’s *too* obvious, so we miss it. Like swatting that donkey out of our way so we can see to figure out who tracked in all the hay.

      • If we reel it back in to what ff originally wrote (and its context, the publicity push for the book and the hunt, which took it from local to national attention), I think we can be much less surprised.

        posted in Feb 2013:
        ** ** ** “It was fortunate that two writers, Irene Rawlings and Margie Goldsmith, liked my book enough to review it in national publications. Those stories gave it ignition. The hidden treasure story in the book provided enough propulsion to keep it in the public view long enough for word of mouth traffic to broaden its desire across America and beyond.”

        [here comes the “surprise”]

        “I am more than pleased with the way it has been accepted. What I didn’t expect was *the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth* to locate their special spots. Many have read my book multiple times looking for additional clues, or even hints that might assist them in the hunt.” ff 2013 ** ** **

        If I were to paraphrase it, I wouldn’t use “surprised”. I think “pleased” or even “delighted” about *how many people immediately started looking at maps and re-reading his book looking for clues* – exactly what he intended – covers it better.

        Jake

        • I agree, Jake. He wasn’t surprised that they went straight to maps — he was surprised by the NUMBER of people.

          • Yep. It’s actually an early expression of

            “Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.” f (2014)

            *Not* a refutation of it.

            Jake

    • Flutterby,
      I have no doubt WWH is on a map. Whatever WWH represents, there are many of them.. be it a lake, river, basin, a mud puddle, an outhouse, a family of beaver at their home… virtually any place you can go to [and many have] can be found on a map /GE.
      LOL I’m not even really concerned about maps, as much as, what “details” fenn sees on them. My line of thinking is; if GE is just as good as any map… GE is nothing more than a image [take from a satellite] of the land itself. Labels, names, etc. are added later… So I ask, are we to use those later added details or use the natural details of that image?

      If you look at some older hand drawn maps, they have mountains and their peaks, squiggly lines for waterways, trees, open grass lands [illustrations of observations] etc. Label are add [ sometimes at the time of the making of the map ] by those who give names to a location they discover.. even though the location may already be named by someone earlier [ the L&C maps are a good example of this ]

      When I look at a map… I look for those natural elements. For example; Lets say the area of the search is in YSP and ‘in the canyon down’ is the grand canyon. That would be a place that is not for the meek. Only, I don’t need to know of the national park, or the name of the river, or the names falls… they are obvious landscapes when simply illustrated on paper or seen in an image [ GE ]
      Note; I think the “image” from above is important… not unlike how we look at paper maps. Might that idea be the important possibility? a Birdseye view if you will…
      I believe the words “take it in” “put in” “from there” “Look quickly down” “gaze” may indicate a view from a higher location. It might be what we see in the poem is from the location of the chest… in theory.

      • Seeker,
        I like your suggestion that bird’s eye view could be the “important possibility” especially since FF mentions birds. Two birds (were they magpies?) Squwaking overhead when he and Donnie were lost in looking for L & C. Two large birds above the waterfall in My War For Me. The word “niddie” can mean bird. So the “Old Biddie’s”.

        I also believe WWWH is on the map. Byt I am not sure we need to find it until we think through the next answer to the 2nd clue. Not even sure we go to WWWH or HOB. In one of my solves, I dont go there at all. Just need to know where thise places are on the map.

        • flutter,
          “Not even sure we go to WWWH or HOB. In one of my solves, I don’t go there at all. Just need to know where these places are on the map.” – -????????????

          Fenn’s Admonitions:

          – – – “The first clue in my poem is WWWH. I have said that several times over the years. If you can’t find that location you cannot find the treasure.”

          – – – “go to the first clue, and then the clues are consecutive after that.”

          – – – “The clues will lead you to the treasure and whether it’s buried or not you can find it…if you can find the blaze as a result of starting with the first clue. That’s what you have to do.”

          Summary:
          Find location of WWWH
          GO TO that location
          Follow clues consecutively…..there
          Find the blaze
          Find the treasure

          (to find the quotes, you will need to use Tarryscant and MW…..although, I prefer my own db and/or JCM’s excellent documents)

          Good Luck to Ya, flutter…..loco 🙂

          *dam, almost forgot……IMO!!!!!

          • Loco,
            I don’t think my comment above contradicts FF’s statements that you quoted.

            “The first clue in my poem is WWWH. I have said that several times over the years. If you can’t find that location you cannot find the treasure.”

            – – – “go to the first clue, and then the clues are consecutive after that.”

            – – – “The clues will lead you to the treasure and whether it’s buried or not you can find it…if you can find the blaze as a result of starting with the first clue. That’s what you have to do.”

            I have one solve in which I don’t actually stand at WWWH. But, I must go to it on the map. Without knowing where it is on the map, none of the rest of the clues fall into place. That is what I am staying.

            But, then I currently have 3 solves I’m working on.

  62. No way, Flutterby.

    I know I’m not Seeker, but wanted to give my opinion…
    Each clue is a geographical location which means each clue “is” a place on the map. And yep, that is the map in his book TFTW. Look at it as a treasure map without a starting point. You must find the starting point before you can follow a trail on the map. The starting point is at WWWH. This is the only thing searchers should be searching for until they find IT. What if? What if this place has been mentioned already, either here or another blog, or even in one of the searchers books. He is not certain about someone thinking the possibility of xxxxxxxxmmmmxxxxxxxx. Sorry, not giving that one away.

    • ManOwar, I have to say I am not convinced all 9 clues can be found on the map in tftw. I have heard Mr. Fenn say that if you knew where the treasure was hidden, you could find it on that map. But, that is only saying it’s in the RM north of Sante Fe IMO.

      Do you have a quote or something similar you can share regarding the 9 clues being on that map? Thanks in advance. Jeff

      • Jeff, No, to my knowledge he has not said that all 9 clues are on the map in TFTW. It’s my opinion. But, he has said that each clue is a geographical location, in that case, it’s a point on a map. It’s logical to believe that all nine clues are somewhere on his map. IMO giving that his poem suggest less than maybe 15 miles from start to finish. So for me all 9 clues are on the map in TFTW.

    • ManOwar,

      I have always been curious to how folks get (9) each clue as a place on a map.
      If WWH is a place, OK I can see that, So we have one physical place. IF clue two is canyon down, two physical places… IF NFBTFTW is a clue… where is that on a map? Should look quickly down or tarry scant with marvel gaze be a clue… are they not more instructions rather than places, yet still clues?

      Just for fun could you list your clues that are considered a place?

      • Seeker: I’ll play.
        WWWH = place
        Canyon down = place
        NF, BTFTW = place
        Home of Brown = place
        Put in below = place
        No place for the meek = action
        End is ever drawing nigh = direction
        No paddle up your creek = instruction
        Just heavy loads = place
        Water high = place
        If you’ve been wise = place
        The blaze = place
        Look quickly down = instruction

        Intrigue: this is not a complete list.

        • Ok, Lets play;
          NF, BTFTW a place? If you stop at hoB is that not the place and the NF,BTFTW line is directions or instruction?
          You separated HL’n’ WH, [making two places] just curious to why and how far apart are they?
          If you’ve been wise… a place? That seems like a good job done bud, you found the blaze which is the place we want to be at. If they both are the same place, how can ya count them as two places?

          What I see is the making of 9 clue to be all places… with 13 clues total. I mean, are ‘direction’ and ‘instruction’ not to be considered clues?

          • Hi Seeker:
            “NF, BTFTW a place?”
            Yep. Which is why everyone fails.
            “If you stop at hoB…”
            I don’t. HoB is not the “put in” location.

            “You separated HL’n’ WH, [making two places] just curious to why and how far apart are they?”

            Consider that they could be both the same thing, but also different things.

            “If you’ve been wise… a place?”

            Yep.

            “That seems like a good job done bud, you found the blaze which is the place we want to be at. If they both are the same place, how can ya count them as two places?”

            They aren’t the same place, IMO.

            “What I see is the making of 9 clue to be all places… with 13 clues total. I mean, are ‘direction’ and ‘instruction’ not to be considered clues?”

            Directions, instructions and places are not all necessarily clues. I consider some to be hints (because they don’t take you closer to the chest). Fenn’s rules, not mine. By his rules, I count 9 clues. But my numbering them would give away a huge twist.

          • Zap –

            Here is what you typed:
            “NF, BTFTW a place?”
            Yep. Which is why everyone fails.

            I agree with the first line but not the second. I think you are still making the common mistake. You are closer to the TC at WWWH than you are when you “put in”.

            That’s my opinion.

            Lugnutz

          • Hi Lugnutz: I should have said “nearly” everyone fails. I know you don’t think you are supposed to go down the canyon, but in my opinion you are mistaken about that. Searchers heading down the canyon don’t fail because they should have stayed at WWWH; they fail because they do not comprehend what is meant by NF, BTFTW. Without that, you’re back to playing Canasta, IMO.

          • Hi Aaron: no, I’ve had that interpreted correctly for about a year — says the guy without the bronze box. 😉

      • Here’s mine:
        WWWH = place
        Canyon down = place
        NF, BTFTW = place
        Put in Below the Home of Brown = place
        No place for the meek = place
        End is ever drawing nigh = place
        No paddle up your creek = place
        Just heavy loads & water high = place
        If you’ve been wise and found the blaze = place
        Look quickly down = instruction

      • Seeker, Forrest has practically said as much when he said that each clue is a geographical location. And a place on a map has a GPS coordinate. No need to name the clues.

        • You see, Seeker…. a direction from “here to there” is a place on the map. From Santa Fe to Taos is a 70.1 mile place on the map. A distance from a place you look to another place or distance can be a place on the map. IMO NFBTFTW is a distance therefore a place that can be shown on a map. I hope your curiosity has been answered.

          • I see what you’re saying. Yet a geographical location needs a smaller point; working with lat and long. A 70 mile road doesn’t really have that. It has a beginning and an end.
            For example a mountain is huge, but the peak is the location, line of thinking.

            So if you go from SF to Taos, they are points, locations… the road ‘points’ places are the same as the location of SF and Taos.
            Would it matter if there was many open fields and no paved or dirt roads to travel through?

            We’re talking an unknown distance that is only known of IF there are two points… start and finish. That doesn’t make it a “place” in regards to the poem.

            **The Five Themes are as follows: Location: Position on the Earth’s Surface (Absolute/Relative). Geographic study begins with the location of places on the earth. Places have absolute locations that pinpoint them on the earth, and relative locations that place each location in respect to other locations.

            If we change it to “relative” location and or place, I can see what you’re saying, yet you still need two points to make that “relative connection” Only we don’t have a distance to calculate the in between, right?
            Unless both ending point are known of… LOL at which time who cares about NF, BTFTW? We would have the next point already.

          • Seeker, paraphrasing, “Many of the “places” that the clues refer to existed when I was a kid.” f. Places have many different GPS locations. LOL

          • ManOwar, ~’Seeker, paraphrasing, “Many of the “places” that the clues refer to existed when I was a kid.” f. Places have many different GPS locations. LOL

            Is, for example, a waterfall a geographical location?, Sure it is.
            Is a canyon a geographical location? Yepper.
            If a waterfall goes into a canyon are they the same geographical locations or slightly different in locations?
            I have to say they are separate. Once the waterfall ends it’s water’s just flowing horizontal water [ creek, a geographical place within a canyon, and a canyon doesn’t always have water in it. But even if it does… it’s still a canyon and can be miles long. A waterfall is rather short in the distance it covers… If we add a wooded area in the canyon – near thr falls, is it not a geographical place, or a section with boulders… yet all can be close to each other.
            “Many” geographical places within a very small area.
            Creek
            waterfall
            canyon
            wooded area
            large rocks
            And a brown log cabin too boot. lol

            How many places do you see-?- and there GPS locations?

          • Seeker, maybe I should have said “a place” (one) has many difference GPS locations. Example, a lake can be called a place, right?, and the lake may be miles across it. The north end of the lake is on GPS location , the south another, east, west and so on, in fact every foot of the lake is a different GPS number, but all the GPS’s can describe the lake, a place. Same goes for a Mountain.

            The whole of Pike’s peak mountain is a place which has many GPS coordinates. So when Forrest says that each clue is a place and that each place is a geographical location then IMO a searcher needs to locate the exact place that the GPS coordinate corresponds to.

            The Amazon River in South America could be called a place in South America. Dallas Texas is a place in Texas, and so on. Look at it this way, find the start (wwwh) and follow the clues (trail) consecutively, like a dot to dot puzzle. Each dot represents a clue location and when you come to the end; “indulge.” lol

          • ManOwar

            I am curious what your take is on finding the trail after reaching the blaze. From WWWH to the blaze is fairly strong directions but after that it gets harder to read the correct path. I don’t believe the chest is at the blaze but one should be able to know the distance otherwise they probably have the wrong blaze. Though I also feel like the word that is key is peace and that peace will help you correctly interpret the rest of the poem from the blaze.

        • Hi ManOwar, I agree mostly, Although I have never thought each place on a map must have a unique GPS coordinate.

          As an example, my interpretation of “And take it in the canyon down” connects WWWH to NF, BTFTW. So the 3 clues are connected or contiguous but not all 3 clues have unique GPS coordinates, however all 3 clues have a name that is on a map. All IMVHO, Jeff

        • Idle D,…. The clues are supposed to get easier as you unravel each clue. If and when you reach the correct blaze the poem says “look quickly down your quest to cease.” But, “But, tarry scant with marvel gaze just take the chest and go in peace.”

          Now if the clues at this point (or what’s left of them) are, or should be the easiest ones to solve, then that tells me that no one has found the correct blaze. Forrest was asked how far the blaze was the chest hidden (Paraphrasing here both question and answer) Forrest replied ‘that it would be obvious to the searcher.’ If so then it mustn’t be very far from the blaze.

          The only problem with that is what if the blaze is very large, huge in length or width, or high. How would one go from there? Where does one look down from this large blaze? Well my guess is that the line “But tarry scant with marvel gaze.” somehow describes where that is. I think that, that may be the hold up from someone finding the TC. Good luck

          • ManOWar, You asked “Where does one look down from this large blaze?” I think you don’t look quickly down. I think the answer is the word peek/peak. To look quickly is to peek.

            I think most people believe “tarry scant” suggests to stay a short while. I don’t think it means this at all. IMO, it is the description of a land feature.

            Just my opinion

      • Seeker,

        I’ll play, too.

        WWWH = place
        Canyon down = place
        NF, BTFTW = place, but likely not the same as Zap’s, because I think he may be one of you folks who has a special interpretation of the letters in BTFTW
        Put in below the hoB = instruction and place
        From there it’s no place for the meek = place
        The end is ever drawing nigh = direction
        There’ll be no paddle up your creek = place and instruction
        Just heavy loads and water high = place
        If you’ve been wise = instruction
        the blaze = place
        Look quickly down = instruction

        Also not a complete list.

        • Interesting lists from everybody.

          Quick question though: For those of you who have identified directions and/or instructions in your lists, do any of those involve actual travel, or any forward movement at all? And if any of them do, wouldn’t those also be considered clues (or at least parts of clues)? I mean, if they get you closer to the chest, then those are clues in my book. IMO.

          Just curious.

          SRW

        • I wonder what to think of this quote as it relates to this game:

          “I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure. F”

          If each clue has a geographic location how can we call them instructions or directions?

          For me the clues begin with WWWH and stop at Blaze. That would make these all 9 lines locations, with look quickly down being an instruction not a clue.

          • Hi Aaron,

            You said: If each clue has a geographic location how can we call them instructions or directions?

            This is what I’ve been trying to get my head around these last few days.

            For me, if each clue does refer to a geographic place or location, why wouldn’t Forrest tell us how to get there? I mean, he almost has to. Otherwise, how do we get any closer to the chest?

            It seems to me that a clue might be more along the lines of:

            here’s a location… and …here’s how you get there?

            Just thinking.

            All IMO.

            SRW

          • SRW, you could be right. As long as the geographic location is in the clue then some directional data could be there as well. Things like down, below, and up may help point the direction of the geographic location that represents the clue.

        • Linda,

          I think most clues are place, and some of those places [if not all] have instructions/ direction incorporated in them. Like your hoB… a place with an instruction.

          I think WWH works the same.
          I also think the instruction part of the clues is what may have screwed up the earlier searchers… the instruction part of the clue was misunderstood, yet they still deciphered the clue’s locations… if that makes sense.

          Aaron, you asked: ~ If each clue has a geographic location how can we call them instructions or directions?

          If each ingredient needs to be done in certain order to bake a cake, doesn’t the instructions work hand and hand with each ingredient?
          [Whip two eggs with milk and flour, idea? If we didn’t know we needed to ‘whip’ them together… well, I’m not eating that cake].
          Personally I don’t really think we need to worry about what we call anything… it’s more important to understand how to read the poem… imo.
          If all we’re going to do is read it one way, and that ends up being the wrong way… all we will have is failed searches… even with deciphered geographical locations.
          Regardless if this is a stomping point to point solution or not… we still need instructions and / or directions. Otherwise we can lose; down, in, from, up, take, put, but, look, gaze etc. words out of the problem… right?

          • Seeker, we do need to figure out the poem and locate WWWH before finding the geographic locations. Once that is determined then we do need to find these geographical locations. I don’t think we are baking a cake so much as we are looking treasure. The people that found the first few clues but not the rest failed to find geographic locations represented by the clues.

          • I hate the ‘bake a cake’ example. All cooks know you can make substitutions and fudge measurements a lot.

            Maybe the 6 stanza poem is 2 sets of three… exampling the college graduate v. the mechanic. Set a) is for the general search area to be determined from book learning ( TTOTC), and Set b) is the geography search, ie, bog experience. Both results need to be known, and they may even be surprisingly circular.

    • ManOWar,
      I believe all the clues are on the map. But I have one solve in which the answer to WWWH and HOB is arrived at by thought process before you even use a map. You will still need to know where they are on the map eventually, but not until you come up with the “answers I already know” once you know the answeer, you can find them on the map.

      • Flutterby, yes, IMO you arrived at wwwh and hoB by using hints not clues. There are many hints to lead you to a clue, you just need to know how to find them, IMO I should say. The hints are as difficult to find as are the clues. IMO, finding the hints first are the only way to find the clues.

        • That is: finding the hints first are the only way to find the locations or places the clues refer to.

          • I feel that is the easiest way but if one were to find a clue the hints for that clue should begin to stand out like sore thumbs. Confirmation bias being the biggest problem during the stage.

          • I disagree ManOWar,
            I don’t think the hints are the only way to find the locations the clues refer to. Remember, we only need the poem and a map. TTOTC might help. But, according to FF, its solvable with only the poem and the map.

  63. Seeker- I believe that every CLUE is a place on a may, and more importantly requires a change of direction-
    #1 begin it at WWWH, and take it in the canyon down, nfbtftw
    #2 put in
    #3 the end is ever drawing nigh
    #4 no paddle up your creek

    If this method is correct, HOB is not a clue, because it is a way point on a traveled path, with no change of direction required.
    This fits very well with the first 2 clues solved, and maybe 4 clues have been solved comments.
    just saying, it works for me

    • Emment,

      I just want to make sure I understand.
      Your #1 is a place, that holds possibly 3 clues within that place, is that about right?

      The other one is more about how we get around fenn saying, if we knew hoB we go right to the chest. IF hoB is just a way point, is it really needed at all?
      Why would it be so hard to just go from one point to another if we are heading in the right direction to begin with-?- without another point in between, IF there is no direction change?

      • Seeker,
        I thought the actual quote was that if you know the HOB, you can go right to “it”. I dont know that FF said you could go right to the “TC”. Am I wrong?

        • Yes, you thought wrong.

          Go to ‘tarryscant’ and search for “who is Brown”.

          Should take about five seconds…….

          Good Luck to Ya, flutterby…….loco 🙂

        • The exact wording was to a question about hoB ~”well, that is for you to find out. If I told you that, you would go right to the chest.”

          My wording wasn’t exact, but the gist of the idea was. So I didn’t put it in quotes for that reason.

          When I first heard this interview I thought fenn was blowing off the question, and would have answered any part of the poem in the same manner. Yet, another comment was stated
          [ paraphrasing] they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues … They get progressively easier after you discover where the first clue is…

          So If one could figure out hoB.. this far in the poem.. they should have little problems figuring out the rest.
          fenn also said; [ again paraphrasing ] folks seem to get screwed up on clues 3 or 4… well IF hoB is fourth like most hope it is, by this point, the poem should move right a long… in theory, anyways.

          Umm, where was I? Oh! right… fenn said chest, not it.

          • And the question he answered was not ‘where-or-what is the house of Brown,’ it was

            “Who is Brown?”

            His answer is similar to this exchange –

            RE: “What kind of boots did you have on?”

            FF: “Well if I told you that, you’d go out and find it.”

            Jake

  64. Happy Monday, Chasers!

    Per Forrest’s music recommendations, I’ve been moseying around through the works of Eddy Arnold recently and came across this gem of a song. Forrest hasn’t mentioned this song in particular as far as I know, but I think it fits in very nicely with the spirit of the Chase! Enjoy!

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eVSIy8MAEq0

  65. What if “Not far, but too far to walk” is not a distance, but more akin to FF’s butterfly/flutterby?

    “Not far” could be a spoonerism of “Nat For” or National Forest? or
    “Not far” could simply be “Near” w/ BTFTW needing to be deciphered?

    Sadly, I’ve run out of steam at the comma and haven’t been able to solve the riddle of BTFTW, other than “But too” might be Butte…

    I see people posting some sort of a relationship to “A Farewell to Arms” or “For whom the bell tolls” but unless your hinting at bell names or arms/forks of rivers/lakes, I haven’t really seen anything there. Yet.

    Has anybody else gone further down these paths? I’m still in the brainstorming faze, so feel free to push, prod, or challenge.

    • misfit,
      It’s nice to see that someone else is playing with the words in the poem (and that that there are at least 22 other misfits). I often take one line and recite it over and over, seeing if there is any play in the words for weeks before I see possible meanings. Nat For is an interesting thought. Others have suggested the rest of that line contains numbers. A brief look for Forest Service road 242 didn’t pull up anything in the Rockies north of Santa Fe, but maybe something similar?

      • JW, that is one thought I had that it pointed to a forest service road. I’m still relatively new to this, trying to figure if each line is a riddle, homophone, spooner, or whatnot.

        • Try everything, make sure that your whatnot covers lots of other possibilities. My opinion is that each line needs to be solved a bit differently. Most of the ones I’ve figured out so far fall within a certain general “style” while being of different types. All IMO, and since I really enjoy solving puzzles my confirmation bias might be in seeing puzzles where there are none.

          • Exactly JW. Each line is it’s own puzzle, needing to be solved as many different ways as it can. Some lines have 10 possible answers, others just 1. For me, it’s break down a line by following it’s instructions.
            Like if you have the words, “I can keep my”, what do you end up with? Just the word “my”.
            IMO, this is the basics to solving the poem. Especially when all 24 lines can be broken down. That type of writing is not found anywhere, except this poem. Believe me, I’ve looked. The most I’ve seen is roughly 8 lines that could be broken down, and that really didn’t reveal anything. This is the architecture of the poem, done by design. Just to find 8 lines together was taxing, let alone 24 lines, impossible, unless done by design.
            So misfit22, as you try to solve each line remember, some lines have more than one way to solve, you will be going back to the poem, but that is the way to solve the poem, IMO. When you do solve the poem, then get a map and see what you have. A map before solving the poem is a big mistake, IMO. It could make you force fit for a solve. The poem will tell all.

          • Charlie “A map before solving the poem is a big mistake, IMO”

            I agree, to easy to find a bunch of rabbit holes to chase.

    • misfit22,
      Do you know why a butterfly is also a flutterby? At first I thought flutterby was just a unique twist on the word itself, by reversing the organization of the letters in the word. But, that’s not it. Flutterby is a process. It describes what the butterfly is doing in a way that we can picture it in our minds. I think NF TFTW is different. I think it is telling us that we are not really traveling at all. But, we are looking at something in time/history. However; I think there is a process to TFTW as well.

      • I like your explanation Flutterby. Most of my search in the poem is looking for F’s or D’s and fluttering things.

  66. Re: somewhere upthread …I too wondered why the word WISE is associated only with owls. The owl connection has a long history from Athena onwards, but in myth & literature so is the fox wise, & the crow & rooster & other animals.

    Recently I came across this one on ‘wise’ buffalo, from a Wiki article on American Bison…. “Senator Thomas Hart Benton’s phrase saluting these sagacious path-makers, the bison paved the way for the railroads to the Pacific.”

    The quote is referenced to the Dictionary of American History, by James Truslow Adams, published in 1942. So I wonder some more: was the History, or adaptions from it, used in public school texts in the 1940’s? Would Fenn Sr. have been familiar with ‘sagacious buffalo as path makers’ and coined the phrase ‘home of Brown’ as a name for a place of buffalo herds or a buffalo trail they passed on their annual drive to Yellowstone?

    I know, its a long reach, but that’s imagination for ya’. And yes, I know I am conflating two separate clues…. HOB and Wise. But ask yourself… “if you’ve been wise”… wise like who? An owl, a buffalo, maybe Father? OS2

    • OS2,

      Wise in the simplest meaning, means knowledge of…
      However I like to think of the wise in the poem more like; ~”become alert to or aware of something.”
      But I don’t think we can just leave wise hanging out there by its self.
      Found is past tense of find, or having been discovered.

      So it possible that we may need the other clues references to understand what the blaze might be or what to look for… we “discover” what it is from those references, rather than just pick-out something while strolling around the field.
      So wise and found means; discover or ‘knowing’ what you have found, idea. Or “recognize” it, as what is it meant for.. a blaze.

      Is this why fenn said we just can’t go looking for the blaze? Do we need to learn that as well, like we need to learn what WWH is?

      But there is another thought about found… it refers to metals and we know fenn is fond of founding metals. Is this a clue to what we need to watch out for? Could something like HLnWH be a Geo marker? [for example]
      Heck, could all the clues be Geo-markers? I don’t like that idea, but who knows? LOL for some reason searcher indicated the first two clues, but didn’t seem to know… maybe the just found what the Geo-marker represents but not the marker itself.
      I hope not, I really dislike the idea… but it does add “preciseness” to the equation, so to speak… and make ya wonder, in 3009, it will be more difficult because the RM’s are still “moving.”

      You bring up animals as being related to wise… which make me think of an old ‘general solve’ I could never get to work. It’s about the “answers I already know” Tired and Weak… or the Medicine Wheel… Which is, in of itself, a map.
      Ah! the good old days when the mind was really full of it. Being wise I mean.

      • Seeker;

        You say: “So it possible that we may need the other clues references to understand what the blaze might be or what to look for… we “discover” what it is from those references, rather than just pick-out something while strolling around the field.
        So wise and found means; discover or ‘knowing’ what you have found, idea. Or “recognize” it, as what is it meant for.. a blaze.”

        Knowing the other clues is kinda like a theme – knowing this theme – what one might of thought was a blaze could in-fact NOT be THE blaze – but something seen from that former blaze just might be THE blaze – based on the “Theme” – An interesting thought – hummm – JDA

        • Hi JDA,

          You lost me on this one. I do get what you’re saying on the theme concept. I kinda have one too. It helps to make many of my clues somewhat related. But my blaze is a bit different from yours, I think. IMO.

          SRW

        • JDA,

          Themes aside, I can’t wrap my head around more than one blaze.
          The closest I can come in thought is; two possible clues to mean the same thing / reference. ex. WWH and HLnWH might be the same thing, idea. Or hoB and NPFTM could be of the same… but the blaze-?- being more than one is a hard pill to swallow.
          Unless you are using all the clue references as markers, blaze[s]… that just take you to the last marker/blaze. But even then, the clues would one be one of each or 9 clues = 9 blazed trail, line of thinking. But that’s just stomping clues in my book, which seems to the the method of choice among the searchers.

          The problem I see, thinking of, stomping out clues method… it actually force a searcher to only look for a point/place to go to then the next and the next, and even making up a place [sometimes] for a clue that may not be a place at all [ forcing 9 places for 9 clues ]… there is little planning and no real observation involved, and hardly any imagination while in search mode.
          But that is how most ‘movie treasure maps’ work. Start at the big rock, pace 20 steps, turn N. pace 100 steps, look for large tree, turn west and walk to the setting sun…

          I personally think this is what killed the early searchers progress. They were in stomp mode [thinking process] to get to what they hope was another clue somewhere else. Never looking at the poem’s clue in any other way.

          IF I could ask one question of a searcher who knew they were at the correct WWH, it would be… how far is the canyon down from WWH?
          We only assume that the [possible second clue] canyon down is right there at WWWH.

          Could it be NFBTFTW relates to how far the canyon is from WWH, yet can be seen from it? And once we go to the canyon that’s not far [ seemingly going down or looking down ] we no longer can see hoB? because going to the canyon is too far two walk and you miss seeing hoB, from WWH… which means canyon down is a place you don’t go to, only the direction to look in. Basically saying, you removed the chance to observe hoB from WWH by moving to [closer] or into a canyon.

          Just rambling and rumbling…

          • Seeker, here’s another Q&A quote that comes to mind and might be relevant (see after your comment below).

            And from your comment above: The problem I see, thinking of, stomping out clues method… it actually force a searcher to only look for a point/place to go to then the next and the next, and even making up a place [sometimes] for a clue that may not be a place at all [ forcing 9 places for 9 clues ]

            Dear Forrest, What’s more important in solving the search, a greater knowledge (“knowlege”) of Toponymy or Geography? Chris

            And Forrest answered: I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure. F

            This one has always been pretty self explanatory to me. IMO.

            Just something else to think about.

            All IMO.

            SRW

        • Above in the thread Deano mentioned some valid points but they have been blanketed by many around Gardiner for many years including myself and my buddies.

          For the longest time I thought the blaze was the La Duke Hot Spring due to it’s color. But after looking in every geothermal hole and crevice and runoff in that area I can only go with that’s a possible WWWH for me.

          We had 4 people in my group who went over every hole and crevice at least 3 times each. We even looked up what color brass turns when it gets warm/hot and it turns a yellow gold. So we sat and studied La Duke for possible solutions of cracks that might be square where the chest might have simply fit and blended in but after hours of doing so the only thing we could find was a hole in the lower right side of the yellow and it turned to the right for about 2 feet where the chest could have been secreted. Great spot for it but even with pin-pointer metal detectors, flashlights, and 4 sets of eyes but we came up empty.

          We poked and prodded everything within the Devil’s Slide scenic overlook all the way down to far side of the picnic area(flashlight and sandwich) along the river on both sides many times but nothing.

          So my partners gave up this year and I’ve started to think that that could be WWWH because that’s pretty much where 3 geothermal springs are located. I’ve been thinking the “lighthouse” might be something to look at as it’s down across from the CUT and there’s NFS land just behind it. There’s a basset creek that runs up past the restaurant and Mol Heron(? red herring?) creek that dumps into the river at the church’s back side.

          After putting literally hundreds of man hours in at La Duke with metal detectors and flashlights and 8 boots it’s became my WWWH. I’m hoping to find someone around my area who wants to search with me above the light house or at creekside/river area because 4 eyes are bette than 2.

          We also searched up and down the Devil’s Slide itself for hours on end but nothing in or around that beauty. I have a friend who’s a member at the CUT so we could cruise the grounds on a daily basis but to no avail. We poked and prodded every hole, crevice, rocks, and logs until we were blue in the face.

          So Deano Bravo you are way late but hopefully you moved some of our rocks and logs back where they started. Lighthouse, church bells, creeks, dry creek beds are more in my search area now. The bicycle playing cards have a cherub riding the bike and the CUT has MANY cherubs scattered all over the grounds on both sides of the road.

          Maybe the blaze is seen from the hillside overlooking the lighthouse(restaurant) or the church(called the lighthouse as well) and the bell tower? Maybe the canasta and riding a bike backwards has to do with the bicycle playing cards and the cherubs (cupid is the one represented on the cards) riding it? Any takers? 4 eyes are better than 2. It’s getting late in the season so let me know if you want to team up. Good luck to all.

      • Hi Seeker, Please explain how WISE is left to hang out there by itself? What do you mean?

        You said, you “like to think of WISE in the poem more like; — become alert to or AWARE of something.” Good idea. FF’s ‘awareness’ started with his name in 7th grade (JUMP START). Subsequent actions enhanced his name into his confident wise-guy image. Pride in it even took the sting out of switchings & scoldings.

        Wise is a fox dressing like a hound. Wise is appearing to be an attentive student when polishing agate between your knees. There are many examples of FF’s ‘wiseness’ founding (in both senses: discovering and fabricating) his expanding self-image, like Valedictorian marks in Savvy 101 & Street Smarts 102. Wise is hardly hanging out there all by itself in TTOTC. It’s all over the place.

        ‘Awareness’ is also the last mention on the Asterisk page. So I guess wise or awareness is pretty important, and not a solo event. Is it the same for the poem? The searcher?

        If you’ve been wise and found the blaze … need I list all the names of wise? Sagacious, clever, astute, etc. etc. I don’t think it is hanging out all by itself.

        • Wouldn’t that be so funny if the blaze was a “big ol asterisk” on top of some heavy load. Ha! All kidding aside, nice breakdown of wise.

        • I meant… we should Include “found”.

          “If you’ve been wise [ past tense ] meaning you pickup information along the way: become “aware” of that information. and use that information to have “found” the blaze.
          Found and wise equal discovery; which means you “know” what you discovered. Rather than guessing it might be the blaze. I think the blaze is so normalized… searcher probably walked right by it … not knowing what it was.

          For “example”; IF a glacier was WWH and carried a boulder from far away to fenn’s special place… we would be basically be following the boulder’s travel to this location, and fenn used this rock as a marker. Something different to its surroundings, yet never really noticed as a blaze or marker… Unless you knew the prior clues correctly, line of thinking.
          That’s only an example of; how something looks like it should be there, has been there for centuries, yet didn’t belong there in the first place… “Wise” comes with that knowledge of the prior clue’s references to find/found “discover” what the blaze is and not just a boulder.

          I think this might be why fenn could answer Becky’s question… the poem explains the blaze, by deciphering the prior clues, to what the blaze is, in the field. And in this example, Knowledge of Geography would be helpful. Can you imagine the travel of that boulder, being carried and rolled from far away on to be a simply rock now used as a blaze/marker.

          One such boulder sits on the rim of the Grand Canyon at YS. [ if I recall correctly ] carried over 400 miles to it new home. In this case or theory, WWH is what is left from the glacial melt and not so much where the glacier was back in time [the past, old].

          Sorry, where was i? oh! right! the point is… the prior clues give us the knowledge we need, to be wise, and to have found / discovered the blaze… in this example. It’s both in the poem, but not mentioned to what it is, and in the field and known of, once we decipher the clues properly and find it. I think it’s possible the blaze is old [ like that boulder ] and why that line is in past tense.
          hint of “riches” [knowledge] of new and old… present to the past, over time.

          You won’t understand this, unless you can put the stomping mode on the back burner for a bit. and imagine what the glacier did… carved the canyon down, left WWH, no far back in time, but too far to walk back…Put in below the hoB is the end of the glacier… where wwwh is at, and where the blaze settled.
          Stanza three explains [in the past, it was no place for the meek ] There’ll be no paddle up your creek, because it was an “ice river” ~ slow moving glacier that did it all, over time.

          Your effort will be worth the cold.

          LOL just another theory….

          • Seeker,
            I agree that ” the poem explains the blaze”. I believe the poem tells us what the blaze is.

          • Flutter,
            I’m not sure the poem tells us outright what the blaze is. I think the clues guide us by explaining what it should be by the process of how it got there y using the prior clues references… if we read the poem correctly… In the above theory that is.

            LOL heck, the blaze could be a Geo- marker for elevation and we need to look a round for a place/spot with the exact elevation near by. But in that scenario, I would think most if not all the clues would be Geo-markers as well.

          • Thanks for the explanation Seeker. I agree completely, the blaze will be recognized because of the journey taken. I also believe the journey is not just the stomping one.
            I dont have to put it aside since I’ve not been on on that journey, I’m greatly handicapped by being only on the written one. OS2

          • Seeker,

            I really like your way of explaining how a boulder carried from far away might be a blaze which could lead us back to the original location. Kind of an interesting idea.

            I also agree, “. . . the clues guide us by explaining what it (the blaze) should be by the process of how it got there by using the prior clues references…” That is basically what I mean by the poem telling us what the blaze is. I like your explanation better. But, I firmly believe that we aren’t just looking for some random blaze. The poem will guide us there if understood correctly. IMO

          • Flutterby,

            Whatever the blaze turns out to be… I think it might be something everyone would walk right by, even searchers, IF they didn’t solve all the clues.

            However, there is another thought
            [big surprise huh? LOL I’m not a boy-scout, but i’m always prepared]
            If we need to use the blaze in some manner. I think that is a possibility in the way I read parts of stanza 4… with some help from a line in stanza 3.

  67. The 200 ft comment. My interpretation is: 200 + feet (36) = 236. 236 = Lillie Gay Sumpson Fenn, his mother. 236 just happens to be relevant to a latitude that maps to the poem. So technically, any one who has been to a latitude of 236 has been within 200 feet.

    161 = “your quest”; Peggy + Forrest; moon + dove + nest, “Once Upon a While”.

    Sincerely, your fella loon

  68. Many are asking why I use numbers and periodic elements to arrive at “my correct solve.” To me, logic is a mathematical term; simplify is a mathematical term; a hint is an element of a clue. A clue is an element of a correct solve. The periodic table is a very good map, it is the map of our universe. Could there be a better map than that to use? And reading ttotc, TFTW, OUAW…how many times does Forrest use worked such as sum, figure, added up, etc.

    These are just some of the pieces I have used to arrive at my solve location. I have used these tools while maintaining a strict adherence to the poem: its visual imagery (imagination) + word meaning + math + periodic table + poetic tempo (beats) (also used Forest books, interviews scrapbooks and words). The further I have come in determining my final location, the more I become a poem purist. Critical, I could not have started as a poem purist. I needed all of the other information in order to evolve into a poem puist. Imo, that is how the final solve is confirmed.

    I think Forrest wants us to use all our senses as we take the journey of the chase and life, especially our 6th sense. Remember in ttotc when he asks whether there could be some subliminal gene that let’s us tie everything together, those things that are not seen or known? That is 6th sense, instinct and gut feeling. The answer is yes.

    There is a page in ttotc that has been my guidepost from the start. Forrest says something to the effect of, we are all but sheep following the dictates of others, many of which are not as fruitful as our own. This is a profound point in ttotc from my perspective, and something that is central to the lesson of the chase, that is also what catapults one into a remarkable life, such as Forrest has been leading. Following the dictates of others was a breaking point aha moment for Forrest in Vietnam. He was following the dictates of others during the Vietnam war by fighting a war that he himself did not believe in or understand. Don’t we all do this in life and in the chase? We yield to the masses, trends, the news media, consensus of the internet, and even to group consensus of the blogs? Does that at all sound like Forrest Fenn? Heck no. Be a maverick in thought and action. Do as I do, not as I say. Have we all learned this lesson thru the chase yet?

    So I have gone out of my way to take all blinders off, to not follow the masses to Yellowstone and New Mexico, to take all information in, and to listen to my inner voice and March to the Beat of My Own Drum. I believe it will pay off. Time will tell. If not, it sure has been fun and i am richer for it.

    • Twin – while I certainly appreciate new thoughts, yours are just snapshots into your head, aka, no one can see/deduce what you’re doing so it just sounds like nonsense…further, are you posting for help or just to say ‘hey, nobody asked, but here’s mine!’…we’re all guilty of that to an extent here on a blog, but some your recent numbers comments are just making a whooshing sound over our heads (other number freaks maybe not), all IMO. I do agree with you that all this ‘same same’ stuff aint working and need to get out of the box…but plenty of those solves over the years too and no box.

      • I know TBug. I’m trying to share a different way of thinking and approaching the chase and life, since I think that is a central message of ttotc. Hopefully something I’ve given away thus far will jar the stuckness of 8 years for folks loose.

        Ivectried to fibd a botg search team to no avail. And I’ve not yet become comfortable with just giving my precise solve and location away – for many reasons. However, I’m getting closer by the minute. Maybe that is the real objective of the chase?

        That said, seeing things and thinking differently can be very isolating and alienating. I don’t see any thinking about the big pucture happening. The blogs arent moving abtibe closer it woukd seem.
        Perhaps why I’ll start a podcast called “The Voice of the Loon”. Surely I must be a loon with how i see it all.

        • Twingem, I’ve posted now and then about wanting to team up with someone. That said, I suspect our solves are quite different.

        • Hey Twin, I think you’re based in Colorado (you live here, not sure where you search), that said, I too am in Colorado and at this point in my Canasta career I do have the desire to get out more. I’ve had a couple interactions with people over email and it always ends at an impasse about how to ‘guarantee’ one party won’t double cross the other. I don’t have a solution for that other than to meet, see if two parties can build some basic trust (not just outright tell me your solve kind of idea), and maybe just go on a hike together. Over time maybe the parties could agree to terms of a joint search…I view a collaboration as the opportunity for both parties to learn…some people have the research angle maxed out, others understand the reality of BOTG better, some can bring an unbiased eye to others despite not having great ideas of their own, a common goal must unite them for it to work (thanks captn obvious). Thanks for the explanation, I do appreciate others ideas and willingness to discuss them.

          • Tbug, I enjoyed your comments above.

            I know Aaron is working on a group effort that he has put a lot of good thinking in to offset the type of concerns that you expressed.

            I’ve mentioned that I would feel honored to be involved with Aaron’s endeavor and I hope you’ll get a chance to check it out.

          • FD, I’m working on finding the right wordpress registration add on for the site right now but looking forward to getting it running soon.

    • Twingem,

      You might look at SB 62, I believe what your saying fits in the statement by F. If you are truly a poem purist you wouldn’t be using periodic tables to work for your solution. You would be using only the words in the poem without any crutches to lean on. Read the book and the poem, in fact all you need is the poem and a map.

      Just Say’n

  69. How much do tenses matter in the poem?

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=9WLQqZmpnXM

    “If you’ve been brave and in the wood.” I think it’s just an error he made thinking back to the “if you’ve been wise” line. If the tense was important for this line, wouldn’t he have corrected it before letting them err it.

    Also: “Bueller… Bueller” on my prior comment in this post! 🙂

    • I suspect the “you’ve been” language refers to having spent time fruitfully thinking about the clues. At some point, you have to pull it all together.

      • Hi Linda,

        My comment was directed toward the fact that Forrest misspoke the “brave and in the wood” line. That is not past tense in the poem, but he recited it as if it was.
        I’ve watched that video multiple times and many people have referred to the vid, but no one to my uncertain knowledge has caught that he bungled his own poem.
        I think it’s just a simple error, but does it change anything if he didn’t catch it before it aired and hasn’t corrected it?
        I know there are a lot of people who need every letter to be in an exact position for their solves – if changing the tense of that line doesn’t matter, it throws those solves out and maybe others too. For me, this is good news, because it lends to a broader interpretation of the poem’s lines.

    • Sorry for the repost but towards the bottom I explain my line of thinking about the hometown Gardiner area.

      Above in the thread Deano mentioned some valid points but they have been blanketed by MANY around Gardiner for many years including myself and my buddies.

      For the longest time I thought the blaze was the La Duke Hot Spring due to it’s color. But after looking in every geothermal hole and crevice and runoff in that area I can only go with that’s a possible WWWH for me.

      We had 4 people in my group who went over every hole and crevice at least 3 times each. We even looked up what color brass turns when it gets warm/hot and it turns a yellow gold. So we sat and studied La Duke for possible solutions of cracks that might be square where the chest might have simply fit and blended in but after hours of doing so the only thing we could find was a hole in the lower right side of the yellow and it turned to the right for about 2 feet where the chest could have been secreted. Great spot for it but even with pin-pointer metal detectors, flashlights, and 4 sets of eyes but we came up empty.

      We poked and prodded everything within the Devil’s Slide scenic overlook all the way down to far side of the picnic area(flashlight and sandwich) along the river on both sides many times but nothing.

      So my partners gave up this year and I’ve started to think that that could be WWWH because that’s pretty much where 3 geothermal springs are located. I’ve been thinking the “lighthouse” might be something to look at as it’s down across from the CUT and there’s NFS land just behind it. There’s a basset creek that runs up past the restaurant and Mol Heron(? red herring?) creek that dumps into the river at the church’s back side.

      After putting literally hundreds of man hours in at La Duke with metal detectors and flashlights and 8 boots it’s became my WWWH. I’m hoping to find someone around my area who wants to search with me above the light house or at creekside/river area because 4 eyes are bette than 2.

      We also searched up and down the Devil’s Slide itself for hours on end but nothing in or around that beauty. I have a friend who’s a member at the CUT so we could cruise the grounds on a daily basis but to no avail. We poked and prodded every hole, crevice, rocks, and logs until we were blue in the face.

      So Deano Bravo you are way late but hopefully you moved some of our rocks and logs back where they started. Lighthouse, church bells, creeks, dry creek beds are more in my search area now. The bicycle playing cards have a cherub riding the bike and the CUT has MANY cherubs scattered all over the grounds on both sides of the road.

      Maybe the blaze is seen from the hillside overlooking the lighthouse(restaurant) or the church(called the lighthouse as well) and the bell tower? Maybe the canasta and riding a bike backwards has to do with the bicycle playing cards and the cherubs (cupid is the one represented on the cards) riding it? Any takers? 4 eyes are better than 2. It’s getting late in the season so let me know if you want to team up. Good luck to all.

      • MTMike- Hate to put a damper on your thorough searching. But, it almost sounds like you have left the poem looking for square holes that TC could hide in does not sound like following clues. But, maybe you just dont want to reveal too much?

  70. If it’s “too hard to explain” then how does it really work in your mind?
    If you conjured it up, then how is it, that it is too hard to explain?
    Jeepers!!! I’ve heard a lot of excuses but this one I can’t explain.

        • Don’t be a jerk. The more you understand, the more complicated it is to explain to those that have a clue or class.

        • A consideration regarding complexity: Forrest did write that the correct solution could be written on something the size of a sticky note.
          (You can pull up the exact quote on tarryscant). Doesn’t mean that the *explanation* for the solution could, but evidently instructions to navigate there are not very complex.

          • Hi Zap,

            Awesome tip. I hadn’t heard of this one before. Thanks.

            I’ve got stickies everywhere. LOL.

            Thanks again,

            SRW

          • Hey Zap,

            I was unable to find that one. I searched every variation of the word sticky and I also searched on napkin, just in case. Can you point me in the right direction? A different key word perhaps? I’d like to read this one.

            Thanks,

            SRW

    • Well Jake, If I were as smart as you, maybe I could explain it, but since I am not, you can just sit on the sidelines and throw darts – I don’t mind, dodging them is good exercise. Have a great day Jake – JDA

  71. Fundamental Design,
    Are you saying WWWH and water high are the same thing? You say they are interchangeable.

  72. Food for thought:

    Why is there not a name given by Forrest to “the poem”? It appears in the chapter “Gold and More” Right?

    What should the name be?

    How could Home of Brown lead one straight to the chest? Lets say its a border between two of the states, each border is shown as itty Biddie Lines and each is marked by “Brass Markers” that read “Do not Disturb (touch) under penalty of law” See my photo of one on this blog, Tom Terrific Blaze, each one has a number and a date, some say the lat. and longi. but how straight to the TC from the Hob? ff said that,

    not me.

    I would think that if one is to get within 12′ of the TC the answer for the blaze would be clear and exact in a geographical coordinate revealing somethin from the poem, a number perhaps?

    If each clue moves one closer to the TC, and fenn followed them to stash Indulgence, where did he start? Somewhere before WWWHalted. Where is the most Warm Waters in the 4 States? Begin it there.

    TT

    • TT, your thinking is awesome and very refreshing. Thank you for sharing. Exact geographical coordinates are in the poem. But they are very challenging to get correct until you understand how to read the poem as Forrest intended.

      I’ve seen dozens talk of 111 and nearly all believe this means WY/MT as coordinate start. Others who use alpha/numeric believe it confirms New Mexico. And I believe it is part of my coordinates in Colorado.

      This is why its been 8 long, long years. From just the word “alone…” Which road does one taje? Like Forrest and Robert Frost, I’ve taken the one least traveled.

      Which road are you taking?

  73. SRW,
    You said, “if each clue does refer to a geographic place or location, why wouldn’t Forrest tell us how to get there?” I don’t think a map tells us how to get from place to place. It just shows us where the places are. I don’t see the poem telling me how to get from one place to another. I see it only describing places. IMO

    • Flutterby, think about the line : Not far, but too far to walk

      ….TT what’s up with that line, do we float, fly, ride a trail, a plane or trains, or automobiles. ..Sounds like a movie. Perhaps 1989, Indiana Jones Last Crusade, filmed by Spielberg in NM ,CO, who got well from cancer that year? TT

      • Tom;

        Have you looked up the meanings of “far” – You will be surprised at the many, many meanings – some of which are down-right scarry – like Deadly and dangerous. Surprised?
        “Not deadly, but too dangerous to walk.” (Interp.)
        Makes one think doesn’t it? – Just a thought – JDA

  74. Just gonna toss out a thought. I’ve seen comments over the last few days, in which some searchers have suggested that it would help to solve the poem by knowing what places FF has frequented. There have been suggestions that FF would not have mentioned the hiding place in his writings, and others who believe it is definitely a place he has mentioned. I know some searchers think its helpful to look in good fishing locations. I personally think it might be helpful to analyze areas where a person interested in digging up history might be drawn. Has anyone else considered this? We know FF likes to search for historical artifacts. In fact his interest began with the finding of an arrowhead as a young boy. So it kinda makes sense to me that looking in areas with known history of native American migrations could be helpful. Not that I am suggesting to step outside the poem. I’m only suggesting that if there are places WWH that native Americans frequented, verses WWH where they didn’t go frequently, I’d consider those with historical significance.

    I also have one solve that I’m quite interested in, that involves a place that Osborne Russell mentioned in his writings. It isn’t clear exactly where this place is. Only a general location in an area that seems to me to fit the poem. So, I’m considering this possibility. I know other studies have been done to identify this place and it has not been conclusive. But, it holds my interest.

    Tonight I’m just mulling over a couple of these places and re-analyzing the poem to see if I’ve overlooked something.

    • Hi Flutterby,

      That seems reasonable to me. Especially the Osborne Russelll place. I have also given considerable thought to that. Even bought the book. And I do believe there is a hint somewhere in Looking for Lewis and Clark. I am not certain as to the hint but Mr. Fennn tells the story often so it must be important, right?

      I am one of those he believes a searcher should look in an area that you have reasonable belief that Mr. Fenn was there at some point.

      My logic is very simple, I am coming from Atlanta, GA to W.Y. So that’s a long way for three to travel and we may never get another chance so logic took over and I told myself to think about all the places that we know he has been over the years and which ones might be very special to him and at least search in an area near one of those locations.

      The only risk, I see in that logic is that Mr. Fenn was always on the move and I don’t believe we can know all the places he has been that are special to him. So that’s the down side but I think the ol saying “a bird in the hand, is worth….Bush” might apply here. IMO. Jeff

    • Flutterby,
      I can relate to your thinking on these two points. First, my current favorite Solve is in a historical native American area with a plausible WWWH.It is in Colorado.

      Regarding your obsession with a place Osborne Russell mentioned, I have read his Journal of a Trapper and I am also looking for a special place from his writings. Maybe it is the same or maybe something different than yours. I have even plotted some of Russell’s camp sites and routes as can be deciphered from modern maps and Google Earth. So far nothing definitive, but I keep going back to his travels in the Jackson Hole and southern Yellowstone area. Does this ring a bell?
      Hope to hear more from you regarding this post.

      • McKendree,
        Different spot, but it is in Wyoming. I’m interested in a fen that seems to have been lost over time. Recent study of watersheds in Wyoming acknowledge that this fen has been documented long ago, but its exact location is in question. I think I know where it is, but still working it through. I would think that FF would have sought it out and identified where it is. IMO

  75. Can someone please tell me what kind of wax did Forrest use to seal the olive jar with? Thanks in advance.

  76. SRW,

    You quoted FF as saying, “If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck. f.”

    I think the significant part of this statement is not his answer to the question being asked. I think it is more significant that he mentions, “a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take.” This statement makes no sense, which is why I think it is a hint and not a meaningful suggestion to share gas money. If you had a good idea where the TC was, why on earth would you split the gas money with anyone and have to divide up the TC? You wouldn’t. Nobody would! If you think you know where it is, borrow money from a friend or something and go get the TC yourself. If your solve is correct, you can pay back the gas money with a token from the TC.

    IMO

    • Hi Flutterby.
      I always thought that gas remark to be odd too. It sounds like he’s hinting that the distance between WWWH and HoB is quite far, at least a car ride.

    • Morning Flutterby,

      I see what you saying about Fenns comment and about whether or not a searcher is strapped for cash. It isn’t so much about about needing some money as it is about needing some gas.
      IMO.

      SRW

    • Flutterby,

      I think the second part was nothing more that a bit of sarcasm.

      IF one should actually know what hoB refers to… they should be able to finish the challenge. line of thinking.
      At the time of this question, and even now, we really only knew of 2 clues being indicated. Regardless of what # clue hoB is… if one gets this far, we should be able to go all the way [ in theory ].

      Add in the other hoB ATF’s example; If you knew hoB you’d go right to the chest, and the comment that clues 3 and 4 seem to stump the searcher [ again, that is IF hoB is one of those clues ].

      This is why the ‘first four clues’ comment was interesting. Should hoB be on of them, why would a searcher not have discovered the rest of the clues and/or retrieve the chest?

      There are some reason;
      Someone got this far in the poem with no BOTG.
      Someone or more than one, have only mentioned the clues but didn’t even realize they did so.
      Or
      its possible that we may not be able to ‘know’ hoB without WWH. So fenn might be implying; If that was possible [the question’s scenario], what’s holding you back from going?

      Whatever the reason, fenn chose this Q&A, like all the others, to be posted. That alone is interesting enough to ponder why?
      Personally; I think many things fenn says is simply repeated differently.
      Not unlike the Q&A about the Jar being sealed and an add thought; * Although i’m not ready to say the chest is not in water… just jumps out at ya as something to think about… only later to be factual, because fenn stated the chest is not underwater.
      So I read the reverse engineering comment as, you’re that far into the poem, what’s the hold up… line of thinking.

      Should the many ATF’s about having to solve WWH or you have nothing, Nail down WWH or stay home, Don’t spend money searching if you don’t know WWH, There are no short cuts.. folks are driving down the road looking for the blaze {a clue} It would be a miracle if they found it.. [all paraphrasing].

      Does it really seem likely we could figure out hoB before WWH?
      Fenn has implied many time, looking for later clues is not going to work… right?

      Remember the Q&A can the clues be solve at home [situ]?
      Yes, in theory, but not in practice… we need to be on site.
      I bring this up for another example; If we take the ATF ‘marry the clues to… a place… on a map. technically we should be able to figure out the clue’s references from hob, right? Yet you still have to make all those other ATF about WWH truthful. IMO this Q&A is saying… without WWH you can figure it all out, hence, why bother / be concerned about reverse engineering ~ you can’t have the correct hoB without WWH first and foremost.

      Just analyzing as logically as I can… attempting to make the ATF’s true to each other. Even if the seem to conflict.

      • Sorry folks a couple of typos; the main one to correct is;
        *without WWH you *can’t* figure it all out*
        lol…I have alien hand syndrome, the left hand does’t know what the right hand is doing.
        I might need to hire Zap for proof reading…

      • PB123, SRW, Seeker,

        I think Seeker could be right about, ” So fenn might be implying; If that was possible. . .what’s holding you back from going?”

        But, I think it is about gas and not about gas for the car. I’ve got two possibilities.

        #1- I think it is possible (and I’ve brought this up before) that “WWWH” is related in some way to a cloud. Cloud Peak or something like that. I do have one solve involving Cloud Peak. Moist air is necessary for clouds to form. Moist air is the gas form of water. So is the hint here suggesting the gas form of water? In the story about My War For Me, FF mentions the water from the waterfall turning to mist before it could land on the rocks below. I think this is a hint of the same thing.

        #2 I believe HOB is somehow related to the sun. I’ve got a few possibilities and several of them are Not far, but too far to walk (in time) Since the sun is made up of gas, then it is also possible I think, that the gas comment is hinting at HOB being related to the sun.

        And since I can’t seem to bring up one thought without it reminding me of a connecting thought, I will continue this discussion by suggesting that I have always believed that the clues in the poem are connected in some way other than being contiguous places on a map. I think the poem describes a process that take place in nature. So it is possible that WWWH and HOB are related in a process of nature and not just as places on a map. This would be true if WWH is clouds and HOB is the sun.

        Another possibility is that the significant word in FF’s statement might be “throw”, “throw in some gas money”. I know we have another quote somewhere in which FF asked what would keep him from riding his bike and throwing it in the water high. This is not a word for word quote. I’m sure someone will correct me. Thanks in advance.

        This brings me to the fact that IF WWH is related to a cloud, that would also be “water high”.

        Whatever the meaning of the quote about throwing in some gas money, I think it is much more significant than the answer to the question FF was responding to.

  77. All searchers,
    This question is for veteran searchers primarily or anyone who might know. Mr. Fenn has listed more than once ciphers, codes, RIDDLES, etc. will not help. But, I read a transcript where Mr. Fenn said the poem is a riddle. Wondering if anyone has ask for clarification or reconciled this contradiction. Thanks in advance, Jeff

    • Hi Jeff,

      I’m sure I don’t have the answer for the question that you asked above but your question made me think of this Fenn quote from last year: Well, it’s hidden in a pretty good place. It’s difficult to find, but it certainly isn’t impossible. But if you’re gonna find the treasure, you’re gonna have to solve the riddle that’s in my poem. The nine clues that are in my poem. Nobody’s gonna happen on that treasure chest.

      Is this the quote that you were thinking of? Or is there another?

      Anyways, I don’t know if there’s an extra riddle in the poem or not. Or if the poem itself is the entire riddle that we’re supposed to solve. It does seem like, in Fenns comment above, after he mentions solving a riddle, he immediately follows that statement up with “the nine clues that are in my poem”. This makes me think that the 9 clues are to what he was referring to, when he mentioned the word riddle. But I’m not super sure. I’m still on the lookout for an extra riddle within the poem, just in case there is one.

      All IMO.

      SRW

      • Hi SRW,

        What you are saying is the gist of it. Basically, he has referred to the poem as a riddle but later listed ciphers, codes, drones, head pressures among others and “riddles” as things that will not assist anyone…..

        So it’s a contradiction that maybe is worth seeking a clarification from Mr. Fenn. However, I don’t expect him to respond to me but, maybe a searcher that is well known to him.

        The contradiction can be confirmed at the below website and by typing the word “riddle” in the search engine.
        http://www.tarryscant.com/search

        • My interest in this one is straightforward. I believe the poem is a simple riddle, not because it is easy to figure out but simple meaning not with multiple layers or additional codes and ciphers.

          I am thinking the poem is a riddle where kids may even have an advantage. See simple example below.

          “I have many keys but usually only two or three locks. What am I?” Answer: Computer keyboard.

          So in the poem, What is “it”, “where”, “there”. To me that’s a riddle. But would love for Mr. Fenn to clarify his contradiction.

          Hope this makes sense?? J.O.