Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixty Seven

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Thanks…

 

dal…

677 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixty Seven

  1. Tom Terrific,

    You asked on the previous Odds n’ Ends, ” think about the line : Not far, but too far to walk
    ….what’s up with that line, do we float, fly, ride a trail, a plane or trains, or automobiles”

    I don’t believe we do any of your suggestions. I believe we study something that represents a period in time. We aren’t going there. Can’t go because that time is gone, but a shadow of it remains for us to examine.

    IMO

    • That seems possible to me. I’ve always wondered if there might be a hint in Buffalo Cowboys related to this clue. Since he named the buffalo in the story Cody and I think it’s logical to connect Cody, the buffalo to his first memory of the buffalo in Cody, WY at the Buffalo Bill which in turn connects Mr. Fenn to a wonderful time that is gone.

    • Flutterby, my first thought about that line when I started the chase was, “well if you aren’t walking, you must be riding.” So I googled riding down the canyon and an old movie with that title popped up. I watched it intently – those horse thrives! Led me to Brown’s Hole in northwestern Colorado. One trip there between xmas and New Years 2015 and my spider senses told me not there. Tons if research in the next few weeks led to my my general area now and I’vee never left. There is no place like home.

    • Flutterby,

      In the just closed Odds n’ Ends, you replied to my post with “Different spot, but it is in Wyoming.” I think my reply to your (1) Osborne Russell and (2) native history post may have been unclear. My favorite solve is located in Colorado (native history and WWWH), but my attempt to find a solve related to Russell’s travels are two separate things. My research related to his Journal of a Trapper is focused in Wyoming. I don’t think Russell’s travels included Colorado.

      I have mostly focused on Osborne Russell’s descriptions of hot springs near Yellowstone. However, there is one passage in Journal of a Trapper that is unusual and which has an eerie connection to the Poem. I will only say that it could refer to three lines of the Poem. No mention of a fen, but the Journal entry implies one .I would be interested in your comments if you are interested in sharing.

      McKendree

  2. Lugnutz: in the prior Odds ‘n’ Ends you suggested to Linda that hiding “Montana” (or any other state in a message) would aid searchers already predisposed to that state. How exactly? If I’m already there, it doesn’t help me one lick. Furthermore, may I point out that in the 3 1/2 years since that public post, I’m the first person on this blog that has posted that observation (whether its occurrence was random or designed), so I would say there is ample evidence that such a “hint” is of no use to anyone, while simultaneously available to everyone. That’s not a private hint.

    You’ve made it clear that you don’t think Forrest drops hints in his public posts, but your reasoning for thinking so isn’t very sound.

  3. Hi SRW: from prior Odds -n- Ends, you were trying to track down the sticky note remark. He’s what I’ve got in my notes:

    Erica Jorre (6/14/2016): “…how many pages would it take to write down the solution AND steps in how to get there?”

    FF: “Size of a sticky note.”

    • Mr. Fenn has been known to write small and carry a big magnifying glass. But still, something to consider. I have some on my desk at work, sticky notes and a magnifying glass I mean. I may have to give that a try today.

    • Zaphod,
      Actually, FF didnt answer the question as usual. The question was “how many pages”. He gave the size of a page. But he did not say ONE sticky note” Im just clarifying. However, I think its possible to get it on One sticky note.

      • think it is possible? name a single riddle where the answer is longer than the riddle. and I’ll show you a bad riddle.

        9 clues, 9 short answers. easy to fit on sticky note.

        the person asked the wrong question,

        question: will the size of area that the 9 answers fill, will that fit on the floor of the colosseum, or in Vatican city? or the city of Rome? or the country of Italy?

        pretty sure he wouldn’t answer… but…

        question: you’ve said that a person won’t know if they have wwwh right until they have TC in hand, but can you get a slight wiffle of a cool breeze up one’s leg, that they do indeed have the correct wwwh after correctly solving 6 clues? 7 clues? 8 clues?

        pretty sure he wouldn’t answer that either…

        by the way Zap, if I had 6 clues correct, (and I am pretty sure for any one) it would take all of about 10 more mins to get clues 7 and 8. Nine being a formality after that.

        6 clues, that is where ff is correct, IMO, in it “gets easier…” FAR easier. like solving a 2 number combination out of a choice of 10 numbers each.

        so IMO, I am sure no one has (with confidence) gotten 6 clues correct.

        • Hi Writis: any of the solutions I’ve generated in the last 3 years could easily fit on a sticky note that anyone could follow. So I don’t think it’s such a remarkable answer from Forrest, and I agree with you that Erica asked the wrong question — or at least not a revealing one.

          “question: will the size of area that the 9 answers fill, will that fit on the floor of the colosseum, or in Vatican city? or the city of Rome? or the country of Italy? pretty sure he wouldn’t answer…”

          That one would be more helpful, but agreed that Forrest wouldn’t answer it. But your question does bound the problem. 😉

          “question: you’ve said that a person won’t know if they have wwwh right until they have TC in hand, but can you get a slight wiffle of a cool breeze up one’s leg, that they do indeed have the correct wwwh after correctly solving 6 clues? 7 clues? 8 clues?”

          IMO, people don’t fully appreciate the irony of that quote from Forrest — and they won’t until they solve all the clues. It ties in with not dwelling on the first clue long enough. As to when a searcher could expect that “wiffle of a cool breeze” (nice one!), I’d say you’ll experience that with just WWWH alone.

          “by the way Zap, if I had 6 clues correct, (and I am pretty sure for any one) it would take all of about 10 more mins to get clues 7 and 8.”

          Have to disagree with you there.

          “Nine being a formality after that.”

          And afraid I strongly disagree with that. I consider the 9th clue to be like the unexpected twist at the end of a murder mystery.

          • Zap and Writis…Just another quick *angle* on the *they will not know until* comment. Remember that this was an email from Fenn to an Italian journalist with a Q or two previous to this exchange….”Do expect that people will somehow know for sure once they have found the first clue?” ….answer…”No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”

            Typical Fenn answer that can be taken a couple of ways. The common one is that folks won’t know they have the first clue correct until they solve in total and find the treasure. Another is more linear with the email conversation…the *they* could be referring to anyone that had *found* the first clue up to that point in time…and moved on. These folks won’t know that they had it right until someone else retrieves the treasure and discloses the first clue. Personally this comment means zilch…unless it is necessary for folks to know that others *found* the first clue.

            Also…the *sticky* comment is cute. Don’t forget that Fenn stuffed his tiny *20,000 word* autobiography in a small olive jar ! Does size matter?

      • Flutterby,
        I’ll do ya one better… take your average size sticky note and place it on the poem in your book.

        LOL two searchers in conversation 100 years from now;
        Steve; John, I found an old quote from the guy who buried a billion dollers in gold somewhere on the plateau N. of Kansas. It say the answer is; a sticky note
        John; What’s a ‘sticky note’?
        Steve; I don’t know, but I’d think it has to do with hear and listen good. Maybe it means and old song that gets stuck in your head… this archaic language is exhausting to decipher.

  4. seeker- wwwh is a clue, the first clue. You leave wwwh, and take a path, canyon down, nfbtftw,.
    While you are on this path , you pass the HOB, duly noted, and continue until you reach a put in place, where you change direction. This is clue number 2, because you change direction.
    If you do not pass a HOB, you are on the wrong path.
    F said that if he told you what HOB was, that you would go straight to the chest (paraphrased)
    maybe so, maybe not-It would be a tremendous advantage to know that you were on the correct path, but maybe f was being a little tongue in cheek.
    I was elated when I discovered a verifiable, HOB below my WWWH.
    After you put in, the path must be no place for the meek. This also is not a clue, because there is no change of direction, but a conformational hint that you are on the correct path.
    Now if I can just solve the other 7 clues

    • emmett1010;

      Just curious – Where is it stated that there must be a change of direction in order for one clue to lead to another. With nine clues, that is 8 changes in direction Forrest says that the poem is straight forward, and he has also said that there are no switchbacks. I do agree that at hoB there could be a change of direction, but I see nothing in the poem that dictates other changes in direction. My solve does have a couple of changes, but that is just because I go from one geographical feature to another, and doing so causes me to change direction. But NOTHING in the poem days “OK, now change direction”. (Other than put-in) Help me to understand where you get these directions from, and why you think you MUST change direction at every clue? Just askin’ – JDA

      • Here’s my thought. 1) yes, the clues are in the poem , but what if they are not questions. Most of you know my solution(s) involve what Forrest hints at with the ball of string story. The string is “twine” , it is inside “inter” and the postman is a “letter carrier”. Hence, inter twine and letter carry , as in Flutter by – Butterfly. And by placing a Y in front of a word….Y Taos becomes white house. …(so Y is it and if you’ve been Y’s ) . Chase is seen as “see H as E” which becomes ” Cease”. And the “Que” , as in Quest is “K”. Every photo of the chest is on a wooden plank. Hence, “Plan “K”…. Not far , but to far to walk….”The PlanK”. As far as changing direction…. you might when you realize ” The canyon DO WN ” is DUE W.N. The different pronunciation of “C” and “S”…. Cattle can be Se attle. Another clue involving the “Que” is the combination of Spanish and English. One of the definitions of “Que” is “which”. Remember “Bring a sandwich and a Flashlight” ? Put a Y in front sandwich and break the flashlight in two like Flutter by. Y’S and Which and a ASH FLIGHT, (tea w/ Olga). So there you are given several clues , all in the poem, but not in question form. I.M.O. , THIS is Forrest’s Rosetta stone . And there are another couple I think I will keep to myself for now…..ok, one more. Put TIN below the H.O.B. Aw yes…” The Garb Age”. A Tire? Does anyone remember blog 126? The CHASE MAN HAT N’….ya , seW hat. Good hunting my friends.

        • Oh ya…..Change of direction. “A little RESOLVE” , is mentioned on the inside cover. I see it as RE-SOLVE…..meaning once you figure out where to begin , you have a starting point . This is where I start over and Begin it.

        • Interesting… Ill have to think abut this, its a new idea to me. The poem as a rosetta stone…. Everybody sees the stanzas as linked 2-3-4 and 5-6-1, two sets of 3 stanzas, possibly as two different languages saying the same thing. Rosetta stone.

          Ive been playing on the backwards bicycle lately… halt = start ( if you are walking upstream in a warm creek, and it suddenly gets cold because you’ve passed a hot spring , the warmth halted & the cold started. a Halt = a start. And a put-in means both to enter or exit at place different from your current position. Backwards bicycle.

          • OS2,
            I’m impressed with your idea of WWH even though I dont agree with it. At least its a new idea instead of the same old thing we keep hearing about that is getting us no where. IMO

    • Emment,

      I’m following your path..in my head.. I can see what your explaining… but I have to ask, You have gone from WWH through stanza 2 and part of stanza 3 and up to NPFTM [ which you say is not a c clue, like hoB isn’t a clue either ] So at this point, you only have two actual clues?

      In the interview where fenn talks about stanza 1 [when read by the interviewer], saying; it sound like 3 or 4 clues, and stanza 3 [ when she read the last two line of that stanza] fenn said; sound like a couple of clues…
      How do ya get around the idea that there might be / should be, possibly be 6 maybe 7 clues in the lines that were read-?- Yet you only have two by this point… I’m curious to what the other seven are in your theory.

      • Just because FF says it looks like a certain number of clues, does not mean it is. I say, solve the poem and the poem will tell you what the clues are. If you have an idea and nobody else likes it, who cares! Work it through to conclusion and decide for yourself.

        • Flutterby,
          Please don’t take this personally and your comment is fair as far as that’s your opinion but Mr Fenn has clearly stated there are 9 clues. So for the sake of new searchers I think it’s important to discern between a searchers option and things Mr. Fenn has said.

          For the record I’m with Mr. Fenn. Best of luck on the chase, Jeff

          • Jeff Osborne,
            You obviously missed the discussion I was responding to. We were discussing a question that FF answeted about how many clues are in stanza 2. He said “looks like 3 or 4 to me”. So my response is that it could be more or less in that stanza. It was a vague answer that could be misleading. Just because it looks. Like 3 or 4 clues doesnt mean it contains 3 or 4. There is no debate about a total of NINE CLUES TOTAL

    • what if f is looking at hoB in future tense. Saying the “chest” is put in below the hoB? And he is just stating a fact, it’s put in below the hoB?
      Too many are putting too much on hoB. They force fit a spot because there is some hoB on a map, and if not, they just discard the thought. He seems to be saying at that point in the poem something about the end. You head into some canyon, then he’s looking up saying it’s not far but too far to walk, then he states where it is, put in below the hoB.

      It may very well be true that he’s telling the searcher to put in, but equally possible he’s not refereeing to a searcher what to do, and just stating a fact.

      So, if your solve takes you to a map where you must have some hoB, and if it’s not there, do you discard that solve? Because there is no hoB? I would hate for someone to have a great solve and throw it away because they couldn’t prove a hoB, and then find out he was just talking about some dead tree the chest is under, because that’s where you would find Brown centipedes, and you were on the right track all along. (actually wouldn’t hate it, but would laugh).

      If you need the hoB to be a clue so badly, the 3rd or 4th, then that opens the possibility of force fitting a solve. I would think by now searchers would be wary of that when trying to guess at what a clue is.
      Plus, you still have 5-6 more clues, if you “put in” you are travelling, but if you know hoB you would go right straight to the chest. If it is an early clue, then we would be near the chest, and wouldn’t we see the blaze? But we need to go to where it’s no place for the meek, again, more travelling. Even if it is 200′ away, how would you go right straight to the chest? And, within 200′ you would need 5-6 other clues.

      It sounds as if you are at hoB you would then be at the blaze, so why need the clue then? It just does not make sense for it to be a clue, but what do I know? Carry on thinking it’s a clue. All the better if you ask me. Keep force fitting solves and discard good ones because there is no Purple Mountain around Yellowstone where you are searching, or no Brown’s cemetery, or the trout no longer swim in your creek or river.

      My point being simple, don’t discard a perfectly good solve because you cannot account for something Brown on your path.

      • Charlie,
        I’m not dismissing your post, but i’d like to hit on one thing.
        You mentioned future tense, and I think parts of the poem can be read [ understood ] as such. We have the line “hints of riches new and old” which could imply past and present, as well as future tense within the poem.
        On example would be stanza 4, in short, can read as past tense, present tense, future tense, and back to present tense. Could the lines; “Look quickly down” be in present tense, “your quest to cease” future tense and “But… present tense again? to mean the line might be read as; Look quickly down but tarry scant with marvel gaze.. your quest to cease. Making those lines as something needing to be done before the quest ends.
        If so, hoB in stanza 1 could be past and present tense at the same time.
        Example; Should BIWWWH TINTCD NF,BTFTW happens to be past tense [ once upon a time, line of thing ]
        hoB could be where WWWH was at one time. WWH puts in BTHOB. and might be how we nail down the correct one out of the many. The order did not change the understand of how the tense might work.

        I have thought that is is possible the poem can be read as part of it in time past and present day.. which keeps the *’constitutive order’* in a past, present, future reading mode of the poem, rather than all being in present tense idea.

        “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. **People don’t understand that.**”

        “Somebody could find it tomorrow and it may not be found for a thousand years. I’m looking at the big picture. **A lot of people who are searching for the treasure don’t see it the same way I do**. I would love if someone found it tomorrow but if nobody found it for a hundred years, that’s okay with me too.”

        *You will ignore the poem at your own peril

        “I’m looking at 100 years down the road, 1,000 years down the road, **maybe 10,000 years down the road.** It took me 15 years to write the poem, I’ve changed it so many times, I’ve said before, I didn’t write that poem, it was written by an architect. Each word is deliberate.”

        If we have a poem only designed for today searchers , why bother with 1000 or 10,000 years down the road? But should fenn had that on his mind in the comments above, the past would be a likely place to understand the clues as well, right?

        “A comprehensive knowledge of geography might help”

        Is the important possibility for winning the solve, is knowing how to read the poem’s ~ “consecutive orders” of the clues past-present-future tense?

        Just food for thought…

    • I would encourage a searcher to give serious consideration to the possibility that Mr. Fenn has said there are 9 clues in the poem and he has told us where the clues begin. And in my opinion, a logical person could use those two facts to determine where the clues “cease”. Just MHO. Jeff

      • To clarify, I am not suggesting stanza 1, 5, and 6 are not useful in solving the riddle in the poem. Just suggesting the 9 clues, that when solved and move you closer to the treasure, are between the words “begin” and “cease”. again, just my humble opinion. Jeff

      • Jeff osborne,
        Once again I want to point out that I agree there are NINE clues. You misunderstood another discussion in which I was saying that just because FF answered a question about how many clues in Stanza two, by saying ,”looks like three or four to me”, does not mean stanza two has 3 or 4 clues. It may deceptively appear that way when it contains less or more. Basically FF gave a non-answer.

        In response to your comment that logic should help one to determine where the clues end, I have to ask how long have you been at this? Those of us who have worked on it for several years may have thought that when we started. But, time spent analyzing the poem can change perception. It would be interesting to hear from you in a couple of years. I think that most who have been at this a while have changed ideas more than once. Until someone is holding the TC, we wont know what the clues actually are. Its all opinion til then. IMO

        • Hi Flutterby-
          Yes, I should have read up further. My bad. I’m sorry about that.

          As far as the part about where the clues end. I think my intended audience especially included long time searchers who again IMO have wondered too far outside the box and as Mr. Fenn has suggested, should consider a more straightforward approach or he may have even said get back in the box.

          As for me, you are correct I am a very new searcher who has consumed from a fire hose 8 years of hindsight from 1000s of searchers who have done an amazing job at documenting their efforts. (HoD, AGK, CFT, MW, T.S. to name a few) and articles, and videos that I have read and watched over and over; and in my research and I can see what you are referring to about searchers who have changed their approach after so many unsuccessful efforts. I think that perspective could be useful to some of them so I offer it only as IMHO.

          As you mentioned, this is all opinion and I know veteran searchers don’t like to hear this from a new searcher. And I know this is risky of my to take a chance in saying. So I have attempted to write it as humbly as I can; knowing the written word is often so treacherous for me but, I will not be searching in a couple years. I have only one solution which I know is 99.999%. Incorrect and I will share that in a few weeks after BOTG in hopes that some part might be useful to the search community.

          I like reading your posts Flutterby, you have taught me a lot and I am grateful. Good luck on the chase, Jeff

          • Hey Jeff…this is just a blog that a kind person has afforded folks to sling hash and keep tabs on everything Fenn has spoken of since the Chase began. It is like a kaleidoscope that everyone looks into and sees something different. It is a good tool and no idea is wasted. If you have read and watched and listened to everything…you can easily see that there are really no earth shattering new concepts that have not been touched on in some way or other at some point along the way. It is just so that some think that. Keep the faith and good luck when you search…at least you were inspired to do something that you might not have done otherwise.

          • ken ~ ‘at least you were inspired to do something that you might not have done otherwise.’
            Ding Ding Ding.. we have a winner!

            Jeff you said ~’I know veteran searchers don’t like to hear this from a new searcher.’

            I don’t think that is true. Many ‘veteran searchers’ don’t post or at least don’t post a lot. But I can guarantee many readers would like to hear from the newbies [ as they are call ]. I know I do.. it the only reason for me to come to a chatroom to talk about something with others having the same interest.

            Just the other day a post came out with a solve. That poster, [and others ‘veterans’ as you put it.] said to the effect.. lets solve this so we can get on with our life. It sad that folks think this way…
            As ken said; you and many have been; “inspired” to do something you may have never done otherwise.

            Whether it was the lure that got your attention ‘at first’ or not about this challenge, I think a lot of ‘veterans’ forget the idea… it’s the chase we have been inspired by.
            ** “if it was easy, anyone could do it.”
            Well, were’s the fun it that?

        • I’ve been in the Chase since 2013 and I’m still of the opinion that the clues start with “start” and end with “cease”. I don’t think there’s much trickery with that.

          I also think there have beeen some unique and valuable insights shared by searchers on the forums from time to time.

  5. Emmett & JDA,
    I dont think there are any changes in direction written into the poem. That includes “put in”. I believe the locations are given to us, but no directions. IMO

  6. I will disagree. From wwwh to tiitcd you are going down(top to bottom or north to south).When you put in Below the home of Brown that could mean you are continuing down or that you turn and go back up. It depends on which is the lower elevation. IMO

    • Yes, but going “UPTOWN” doesn’t always mean up in elevation , nor does DOWN TOWN mean “down”. My H.O.B. is simply a brown house UP on a BLUFF. Remember Forrest is a poker player. And he uses the word “Bluff” in the “getting ready for bed” story in T.T.O.T.C.

      • I agree up/down can be up/down in elevation or it could be up/down the page of the map. Above/below could be higher/lower in elevation or ….? Does not seem to me to be a viable alternative is there one for you?

  7. if you put in below its wwwh
    when you take it in the canyon down
    you start at the bottom of the canyon
    when you begin wwwh that is at the bottom of the canyon
    don’t take my word for it read the poem all of that stanza is talking about hob and wwwh
    imo there is no other canyon but one – and that’s where you start at wwwh and go to hob .
    all this is just my opinion

  8. JDA, Seeker-
    My theory- its just that, a theory-
    When I drew a map of the clues, as I interpreted them to be, I came up with 9 points on the map. Every point ended up with a change of direction.
    ie., put in, the end, drawing neigh, so y is it, so hear(here), look quickly down.
    There are quite a few directional hints. take it in the canyon down, no paddle up your creek, all. and several more

    It allows the 2 clue, 4 clue, 500 and 200′ comments to fit my solve precisely.
    Look, I hesitate to even comment, because my experience on this blog, has been that when someone has an idea, not mainstream, generic ideas, they are attacked and made to go into defense mode.
    This is my theory for better or worse, and if it helps someone to define clues vs hints, and thus solve the puzzle, this post will be worthwhile.

    • Ha! emmett
      Main-Stream is drowning…
      Over-Cooked is already hard boiled…
      KiSS is for the groupies…
      Try and Simplify is over simplified…
      Coding is dead on arrival…
      85% knows the others 15% only talk about fiction…
      Imagination is a nightmare…
      And fenn’s 7% estimate of crazies is off by 92%… I.M.O.

      Not much has changed on any of the blogs, only the whispering is a bit louder. Don’t worry about egotesticles and egotypical… Add ya you want to add. Only you need to expect that questions and inquiries will be raised… chatting is a two way street, and at times it can get bumper to bumper in both direction.

  9. A goodnight thought I’ll share once more from prior thread:

    Every time I am tempted to say “no” and shut down an uncomfortable solve idea or thought, i think “No” on the periodic table of elements, which is a numeric value of 102, which is the alpha/numeric total of the word “asterisk”, which is the universal symbol of “wildcard”, which is another term for “joker” when playing the cards dealt in life’s game of poker. This helped me with my solve.

    String Theory.

    It’s kinda cool that one can use imagination and knowledge to string a logical path from that * at the bottom of page 15 to the “life is a game of poker” quote on page 5 of ttotc.

    I’ve found lots of “string theory” like this in TTOTC, TFTW, and OUAW that have guided search path. Fun! Anyone else find any?

    Good night moon,
    …..Voice of a Loon
    https://youtu.be/BsqUayBcK_Q

    • I wonder if could be one meaning of where warm waters halt? Comfortable waters halt when things umcomfortable for us?

      • It reminds me of the dedication in TTOTC when Forrest thanks those who have pushed him against his will. It is uncomfortable when things and people push me against my will…but I’m always grateful for it later.

        My grandmother shared with me that “raising children is an art of bending the child’s will without breaking their spirit”. Nana was wise I think.

      • Home is the most comfortable place of all. It is a refuge, a sanctuary where you feel safe and relaxed. Where does it halt? At your own front door or threshold.

        To misquote Tolkien: “The road goes ever on, in the canyon down….”

        Find a “home or sanctuary” that has only one way in or out. Begin it there.

  10. I’m happy to say that I have an outline of the beginning of my next solve. Still refining, but I’ve got all winter so no rush…

        • In the Rockies it is whenever it wants to arrive. Sometimes not till December and sometimes it arrives before the end of September (which last year was awesome because it put out the Lolo Peak fire in Montana). This year I am happy that it feels like Fall (my favorite season).

      • I’m on it JDA, however I’m going to need some help retrieving it since I still have a bum leg. It’s a good thing f said even someone in a wheelchair could get close to the treasure, and only need help at the end. Now how am I going to move all those rocks……

        Best regards to you;

        Billy

          • Linda.
            It wasn’t a statement from fenn in public in forum.

            It was told by a searcher /blogger about an e-mail exchange between her and fenn.
            However… if I recall correctly… the e-mail was never provided. If it was, I could have missed it… but I haven’t seen it posted.

          • Linda,
            My posted may appear [later] a couple times because I sent / submitted it with a typo in my email box.

            The comment about the wheelchair was posted by a searcher / blogger from an email exchange between her and fenn. I don’t believe the email was ever posted… or at least I never seen it posted.

          • He didn’t. He said, the following in Feb 2016

            Question-Your treasure hunt has inspired people worldwide to discover history, culture and nature, but many people, (even in the US) might be deterred because they don’t live near the Rockies or can’t afford to travel. Should they be deterred? Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?

            Answer- I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun

          • I can’t find the reference so this is just from memory. I believe he said only the first 2 clues. Someone will dig that one up. I think it’s on Mysterious Writings. I did a word search at Tarry Scant..not there. Good luck on the chase, Jeff

          • Judging from ff’s comments about not giving anyone any clues ‘that would help’ out one individual.

            One would have to take “Donna M” comments with a grain of boulder sized salt.

            That is not something that ff would keep “private”, if it were in fact close to how people would imagine it.

            I am sure someone would have written ff after such an (exchange on a blog) to confirm… I do not see any confirm. (at least I don’t see such confirm)

            Couple that with “Donna” gave the quote from ff in (“quotes”), saying they were his own words. but she gave the quote twice, and that quote she gave was different both times. That is a big clue that the quote is not anywhere near context.

            Although one could take that comment as: the help is that the person helping actually does the work, since it only takes “one” person. Or the fact that a horse with someone riding can also go pretty much over any terrain that ff has described in verified comments, as the place where he went. ( “79 or 80” year old.)

            In either case, it is a “non” quote. Remember the verified quote from ff about lots of things being written on blogs that are not to believed.

    • FMC….sometimes it is a good thing to slam the door and move on. Good luck…and I don’t think there is any rush. Are you in your same general area of previous solution?

  11. I think I have thought long enough to figure something out. I now think I know why FF will not say whether or not the treasure is buried. The answer, I believe is tied to the idea of hints “on the fringes” and “edges” and “borders”. I think it is both buried and not buried at the same time. Does anyone understand this idea? If you do, feel free to Email me. We should talk.

    • Schrodinger’s Indulgence. It is both buried and not buried until someone finds it and the superposition of wave functions (aka blog opinions) collapse to one state. Physics tells me so, but a physics that depends on poorly defined observers sounds a lot like metaphysics to me.

    • I’ve believed for a long time that it’s debatable whether the TC is buried. This
      may be why FF hasn’t stated whether it is buried. It’s possible that he doesn’t know, because the definition of “buried” may be a bit vague. But maybe it
      doesn’t really matter very much. Just solve the poem, get confirmation from some trusted others that your solve appears excellent (instead of merely good), and make your search trip happen. Be prepared to dig. As always, IMO.

    • When first hidden the chest may not have been buried by FF. But after this many years, all sorts of debris – like leaves, pine needles and cones, erosion, pebbles, a dead animal – may have now buried the chest.

  12. Jeff Osborne,
    Something you said about me having taught you some things made me think of something I had taught you, that I was looking at from the wrong angle. Not unlike the backwards bicycle. I think I taught you something valuable that narrows the search area tremendously. As in, . . . . . there is only one such place in the four states of the RM search area like this place. I think there are places that one could say are similar but not like this. Its backwards (I suspect you know what I mean). So I did a quick google search and low and behold, this takes me back to one of my early search areas that I was looking at for all the wrong reasons. At the time, I even read 3 books about it and I think I messaged FF with my map. If my current idea is correct, then I missed it because it was so simple. Yet, nobody could solve it if they don’t understand. It is entirely possible that many many people (I know some specific folks) have been to this place but for the wrong reason. They figured the first two clues and walked right past the other seven because they did not understand the significance. Do you want to Email me? I bet I know where you are heading. If you Email, I’ll even toss out a couple of hints to confirm that you are going where I am going. If that grandbaby of mine doesn’t get born in the next few days, I’m booking a flight. butterflygarden at yahoo dot com -Flutterby

  13. This morning I woke up thinking about what Forrest’s father once said to him. In TTOTC, Marvin said something to the effect of “the greater part of knowledge is knowing those things not worthy of knowing.”

    When I first read this this, I thought Forrest’s father was telling Forrest that it’s wise to know which things not to waste your time on knowing – meaning some knowledge is useless (like to book, scrapbooks, etc., are useless and one needs only the poem).

    But I’ve since come to believe that Forrest’s father, and Forrest now, are trying to teach us that there is nothing too small or seemingly on the edge/border that is not worthy of knowing.

    I was tempted at first to discard lots in the book because Forrest said that while there were hints in the book, they weren’t intentionally placed. But then I started thinking, “what does not intentionally placed have to do with the value of hints? A hint is a clue. So What if not intentionally placed!

    All knowledge has value of some type – and time and thinking may be what is needed to reap the bounty of all the little things that eventually catch up in our brains and subconscious by knowing the little things.

    The later way of interpreting “the greater part of knowledge IS knowing those things not worthy of knowing aligns well with the philosophy that the entire Thrill of the Chase book is the puzzle, and that there is nothing too small inside that book to know or think about as one solves the poem. The entire book is the poem. Who says a poem can’t be a book? Forrest doesn’t subscribed to rules – so the entire book can be the poem.

    At the end of the book, Forrest says something about the most interesting things coming from the smallest voices…like a Butterfly being a Flutterby. Related, it has always struck me that in his scrapbooks and words and interviews that Forrest repeatedly asks, “what do you think?” Maybe this was his way of prodding us not to be sheep, but to have our own ideas and beliefs, no matter how hard it is swimming against the mainstream current in the river if life.

    Is that smallest voice out very own inner voice, our intuition and gut feeling? It takes bravery to listen to out inner voices amid the swell of brash and often hostile opinions in the world these days.

    But, I don’t have the chest.

    So these are just musings from The Voice of a Loon.

    https://youtu.be/JWgwPb_uNaI

  14. Weddings.

    I have been thinking about Forrest telling us to marry the clues to a map while scouring maps and googling words and places I don’t know.

    I came across wapiti, which is an Indian name for elk. If I ‘marry’ WApiti and eLK they give me WALK. Am I stretching the tangent too far out of the box?

    • Depends. Does it lead you to walk down an aisle? Is it the correct aisle? Notice how the aisle in a church is like a canyon between the cliffs of the shoulders of humanity, and ending at the most “treasured” place of all below the blazon of God.

      Just a little “stream of consciousness” thinking there.

      Hmmmm … I just gave myself an idea. Gotta run!

      Good luck!

    • Emma –

      Wapiti comes up again and again as I think about the poem and the meanings of words.

      Today I was reading about places in Wyoming and Montana that reference the word CROSS. I was looking for something like Cross Creek or Cross Town but I stumbled into Wapiti like so many desperadoes before me…

      • Hi TF, that was meant (as a tongue in cheek) reply to Jake’s post in my “Wedding” thread. I don’t know how my comment started a new thread.

        We were talking about Wapiti Cabin. I made a joke asking him to check 200′ south of there for me. He posted a google photo of the cabin and I thought it was super funny that there was a giant circle 200′ south of the cabin:

        Jake’s post: You can look here:
        https://goo.gl/TYbNiW
        Very nice area.

        • I think that circle is a horse pen Emma.
          I didn’t want to drive to Wapiti cabin seeing there were people staying there and not invited.
          I respect others privacy but will book a stay there next spring.
          I love that area.

    • “For the first time ever”
      Aint the first and won’t be the last.
      I don’t think gender makes a difference one way or the other.
      I just wish we are all treated equally no matter what polarity, gender, race, color, bean bag or orientation.
      As I said a few times, I’m colorblind.
      You are all equally grayscale.

    • Ahh, the female perspective:

      “Where to put boots on the ground vs. what boots not to wear.”

      Lol… just being silly, don’t hit me…

  15. NINE YEARS since f hid the treasure and still no one has solved the riddle. Why is that? Well, it seems the clues are well hidden in the poem and even the hints are difficult to decipher. What do I mean by that? You see the answer to a hint or clue is often removed by several degrees or layers.

    What do I mean by that ? Let me give you an example…

    The double omega colophon. I think f was quoted somewhere as saying he would take the meaning of the double omega to the grave with him. If so ..then it must have some significance.

    1st degree- You must realize that it is not a double omega, but rather two horse shoes.
    2nd degree- realizing it is two horse shoes you must then make the connection that it is the
    mark of a “double kick”
    3rd degree- Knowing that it is a mark of a Double kick, you must now wonder who might
    have the trademark on “Doublekick”
    4th degree- Now you have to know to go the the patent and trademark web site and search
    for who owns the trademark for “double kick”
    5th degree- There you find that Folgers coffee owns it.
    6th degree-Now you have to look over the other trade marks Folgers also own
    7thdegree-You find that they also own “Juan Valdez” The fictional Colombian coffee grower
    that picks the coffee beans by hand

    Finale- Now you make the association that Juan has with the solution. Remember f recently said a little girl had written to him about sunnyside up eggs, and he added a few strips of bacon and a glass of milk would be good? Some people would appreciate a warm cup of coffee to go with it, I might add.. Now you marry all that with the map and you’re closing in on the location.

    The point is that a hint leads to another (degree) and another (degree) and so on, and we never know when to stop. The clues and hints are not just one question followed by one answer (one degree). That would be much too easy. But that in my opinion is how most searchers approach the solution, and fail.

    f is cleaver and very smart. Don’t let that ole fox (liter 81 ) fool you. He is perhaps the smartest person I have ever known.

    I hope my insight is useful to you. Now where is my deputy and those secret agents of mine? I’ve got a Job to do!

    All IMO;

    1F Billy

    • Sheriff Billy,
      I think you are looking at the double omega incorrectly. I dont think it has anything to do with horse shoes or coffee but who knows; Im not holding the TC. Still, I think the double omega ties to FF’s statement that he pictures his father on the edge of a cloud and if he knows anything about FF, he “is busy lighting candles, some of them on both ends” and that isvthe significance of the double omega IMO

    • SB,
      There are many connections to be made with the horseshoes. There’s the basic Alpha/Omega or beginning and end. So two important deaths. He and his wife. His parents, his siblings, etc. Also known as symbol of good luck, or to ward off evil spirits so he was shot down twice as a fighter pilot and lived to tell the tale, a horseshoe pointing down can symbolize good fortune raining down so could this be a “Blaze” connection? Coincidentally pointing down resembles a “rainbow” so pot of gold at the end of the rainbow? On and on.

      And these are the obvious ones, but I haven’t made the coffee connection. Thanks for sharing. Good luck to you on the chase, Jeff

    • Sheriff billy , you and you may be on to something. The point is not the coffee but the process. I think. For example the hints could lead to Mickie D’s (the golden arches) who’s beef comes from a ranch , and so on. ( on a farm to market road) You, Ray Henry, and Tighter Focus HAVE made some interesting points.

  16. There sure are some great ideas on here that must have spawned from many hours of deciphering and research. However, I just can’t do it. I think (most )of the clues have a double meaning but they get you to the same location. The double meaning will just aid the searcher.
    Other than that, it’s a straight shot .
    So, I feel good about staying inside the box .

  17. I am currently working on a Master’s Degree level class paper.
    I so wish I could use and not use commas like Mr. Fenn.
    I wish I could spell like him and make up words like him.
    It would make me smile.
    Clearly Clueless

  18. Reflections in a mirror. The backward bicycle. “Show the poem to a kid, they’ll get it.” Is there something in the poem we should looking at the opposite way?

    • James;

      For me the poem is “straight forward”. No need to use a mirror or look backwards – But that is just me – JDA

      • I agree. To me the backwards bicycle comment is more about thinking differently than actually doing something backwards.

        • In my solve the poem draws a picture of a woman having her head lopped off, think Medusa! This leads one to look for Perseus and his mirror shield, and sure enough there he is! The blaze is the womens face with a marvel gaze (boy was she surprised). So yes you have to do something backwards. That pesky mirror!

          • Tim C

            I don’t think i know you. I like this idea but i have a question.

            Did you start with Ariadne?

            Lugnutz

    • Hi James,

      I wouldn’t entirely rule out the possibility of an “opposite” idea while attempting to solve (or decipher) a clue. The “meek” phrase comes to mind. IMO.

      I think the poem can still be “straightforward”, so long as a searcher is thinking the right things. Just a thought. IMO.

      SRW

      • SWR,

        We all know the comment[s] about the poem being “straight forward.” [ lol I don’t know why folks say IMO when they type that out… its fenn’s words]
        The other related comment is there’s no subterfuge [pertaining to the poem]. So just out of curiosity – searcher to searcher – What do those words mean to you?
        I’ll give ya my version, in all honesty. Not so much ‘in order’

        But what I’d like as well, is a definition, meaning, understanding, of a Q&A using the same word:
        Q~Are there any objects placed in the Bronze Chest that are connected, or have meaning to the place the chest is hidden?
        Mike
        A~ No Mike, everything in the chest is *straight forward* and visual, except my autobiography, which some might find dull. Oops, I forgot, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues. I think that person will be pleased when she sees it. f

        How is straight forward used here?

        • Seeker,

          The IMO is a CYA. Seems necessary around here!

          To your question about the “subterfuge” comment. To me it means that there are no tricks, whatsoever, within the poem. The words in the poem mean what they mean. Our words (the english language) have many, many different meanings and usages. I believe it is our task to decipher, or select the appropriate word definition(s) for each clue, in order fully understand the clues and advance in the poem. IMO.

          And about the “straightforward” comment. Honestly, that was a really weird way for Fenn to use that word. It reads disjointed and somewhat unrelated. Unless, of course, he was trying to sneak a hint in there (straightforward to mean the clues are visual), perhaps. But he has used “straightforward” before, several times, and I take it to mean with no trickery. And sometimes, I even get move in a “straight” line “forward”, towards the chest (I hope), based on my interpretations of the clues. So that word (“straightforward”) works both ways for me. IMO.

          SRW

          • Seeker,

            Real quick, what was your take away on how Fenn used “straightforward” in that Q&A?

            It really was a strange word to use, in that context.

            Curious.

            SRW

      • SRW…I agree with your concept. Maybe *opposite* is too definitive. I would say maybe understanding the words from a different or less common view point. This may lead a searcher in a different direction…which could in fact be *opposite* from the common view. *Learning* this may lead to thinking the right things…

      • James P,

        Here’s one more thought I had about what you said.

        Is it possible that each clue might need to be solved in a different way? A different technique for each, perhaps?

        Your post above has inspired me to consider the possibility. For example, I don’t have any problems at all in thinking that an “opposite” type answer might be necessary for the “meek” phrase. If it’s no place for the meek, then it’s probably a place for something else. IMO.

        Just wanted to throw that out, before I forgot it.

        All IMO.

        SRW

        • SRW ~ ‘….an “opposite” type answer might be necessary for the “meek” phrase.’

          Yep. The fact is we have NO place… in that line. Many concentrate on meek only. So in theory, the opposite could be ‘a’ place for the brave’ or home of the brave.

          If we take it a bit more to a geographical [ natural ] standpoint.. poetically the idea could be something related to ‘the backbone’ of the RM’s, line of thinking.

          • Seeker,

            That’s pretty much what I was thinking in regards to the “meek” place.

            On your “backbone” line of thinking: I think the “meek” place (all clues even) can be places that are closely related to the Rocky Mountains, in so much that it (they) are physically a part (or feature) of the Rocky Mountains. I understand your “backbone” line of thinking and I think that concept can work. Especially since most all things in the RM’s are basically “attached or connected somehow, someway” (trees, rivers, creeks, boulders, canyons, etc.).

            In my opinion only, since we only have 9 clues to work with, eventually and at some point, the “big picture” that we started with has to somehow end up a little bit smaller, with each passing clue (we’re looking for a 10″ square). Somewhere in the poem, things (the clues) have to narrow down, so the finder can “knowingly” walk to within several steps of the chest. The clues can still be closely related, in concept and “nature” (mine are) but they can also be specific “places” too, regardless of where we find them. IMO.

            SRW

    • Large mirrors, mounted on opposite parallel walls, will give you a vision of an endless reflection of yourself. Kinda like the poem.

        • A mirror as; seeing the past relates more to, what was once and now is not exactly what is was. [ lol fortune cookie for today ]. The idea here is… looking at the poem as in the past. “Begin it where…” or the Disney versions, once upon a time.

          • Like… “Once upon a time, in a land far far away, that took 5 days travel to reach that special and secret place, I bathed in the famous Ojo Caliente’. Sorry, had to go there. In fact, I will be there tomorrow, so excited. Not about the weather though.

          • Seeker,

            “Begin it where…” dose not indicate past, but is an indication of a place.

          • CharlieM ~ ‘“Begin it where…” dose not indicate past, but is an indication of a place.’

            Proof it… I mean, folks have actually been on site, and by fenn’s understanding of the poem, doesn’t believe they knew they had the clues, even when they mentioned them. IF all it is, is a place… why wouldn’t they know they deciphered the place?

            I’m not saying “Begin it where” is not a place… I think we are perceiving it wrong. We may only see it as it is, rather than imagining as it was. Not unlike a searcher 1000 year plus down the road may have to as well.
            Fenn has said the solve is more about imagination. Many use the word imagination as the word that is key.

            You say, begin it where ‘does not’ indicated the past…
            Why not? give your comment a leg to stand on…

          • Seeker,

            The word *where* is defined in the dictionary.

            ADVERB

            in or to what place or position.
            “where do you live?”

            ADVERB

            at, in, or to which (used after reference to a place or situation).
            “I first saw him in Paris, where I lived in the early sixties”
            the place or situation in which.
            “this is where I live”

            This is proof and there is nothing associated to past or back in the future.

          • CharlieM… I’ll use your definitions;

            at, in, or to which (used after reference to a place or situation).
            “I first saw him in Paris, where I lived in the early sixties”

            “Where I lived” ~ a past ~ at, in, or to which (used after reference to a place or situation).
            “I first saw him in Paris, where I lived in the early sixties”, a “situation” in time, a ‘place in time.

            You should read before a simple cut and paste

          • Seeker,

            The portion of the sentence *back in the 60’s* takes it to the past not the where,….where is a place. Also the sentence is of a completely different situation and can’t be compared to another situation that is totally unrelated such as the poem.

            Come 0n you can do better.

          • Charlie,

            It’s right there in front of you.. what can is say.
            Where can be a place in time. Begin it in a place in time.
            “IT” can also mean; a situation, something previously mentioned… also, IT can identify a person.

            This is a poem and a poem always needs interpretation, understand the use of the words in a context presented. lol The poem starts in past tense. The poem is presented in a book of memoirs. Hints that can help with the clues are of the past or past times told of. fenn was thinking down the road with influencing future generations in mind… not just days or weeks but millenniums. fenn is a self taught archeologist, collects artifacts [ kicked off with a 2000 year old arrow head] and know every little tidbit about them. Has organized archeology meets. Involved with museums… etc.

            Naaa, Begin it where, couldn’t possibly be time related presented in poem form. Silly me, trick are for kids.

          • Seeker,

            So went is in the past, but then you must marry the poem to a map to find where warm waters halt. You are completely dismissing what F says the poem in plain English and straight forward, [paraphrased]. There are somethings the poem does, speaks of definite places and things and some of the words rhyme. Also that an average person could find the TC and a comprehensive knowledge of geography = being able to read a maps.

            Yep, F’s memoirs are of the past but that doesn’t mean all of the poem is referring the past.

            Wait, wait, wait a minute……….If you pull hard enough I might believe you,…….. NOPE!, never will happen. Your logic is way off base to me, It’s right there in front of you why can’t you see it? It’s a place!

            I’m done, Just Say’n

      • I am jealous of your minds flexibility. I lock on and cannot see another point of view unless forced to do so by reality. Usually involving coming up against a physical limit, which are lower and lower as the years go by. Reflections change left and right, not up and down.

        • Tim;

          A reflection does NOT change left and right. It merely reflects back exactly what it in front of it. We perceive a switch, but none occurs. If a switch did occur, it would have to switch top and bottom as well, which does not happen.

          Let’s say that you part your hair on the right side. You
          touch where your hair is parted. It may Look Like you are touching the left side, but that is just your perception. You
          ARE touching the right side of your head. How easily we can convince ourselves that reality is something other than what it is – Just sayin’ JDA

          • What I’m saying is if you are facing east and you look into a big mirror . You want to go southeast, but because of the mirror you have to go southwest to appear to go into the mirror, whew! Now I’m confused.

          • Just BS here JDA,
            I don’t look at a mirror in the same way. Although technically correct…

            If ‘you’ stood in front of me, your right arm would be on my left { I had to use arm, cuz ‘your’ part would be the same }… The idea now is, how do we see the poem when thinking “opposites” rather than ‘the past’
            Such as; for example; looking at a map of a river that flows south, its “left bank” is on ‘your’ right… so could the idea of a mirror image could relate to how we see things on a map? Yet, could be different when observing the river on site.

            Fenn said he was surprised many took to maps early on. Ya’ll like seeing hints, maybe this is a ‘hint’ to see the clues from a map perspective only.

            There is also the idea; a mirror image of the clues could be; as they [ the clues ] are coming towards you / looking at you, rather than you going to them, line of thinking.
            When we look in a mirror, the view is now from the mirror’s perspective ~ you looking back at yourself.

          • Seeker your explanation is so much better than mine. Thanks. I will have to remember that – 🙂 JDA

          • Hi Seeker:

            “Fenn said he was surprised many took to maps early on.”

            That’s one interpretation of what he said. There is another that makes more sense, at least to me. Forrest’s quote with capitalization added by me:

            “What I didn’t expect was the NUMBER OF PEOPLE who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots.”

            In my opinion, there is no reason Forrest would be surprised that people would start looking at maps. It’s a treasure hunt — so of COURSE you’ll need a map.

          • For the benefit of others who may not have seen (or forgot) the context of this Forrest quote about people using maps, here’s the full quote:

            “It was fortunate that two writers, Irene Rawlings and Margie Goldsmith, liked my book enough to review it in national publications. Those stories gave it ignition. The hidden treasure story in the book provided enough propulsion to keep t in the public view long enough for word of mouth traffic to broaden its desire across America and beyond. I am more than pleased with the way it has been accepted. What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots. Many have read my book multiple times looking for additional clues, or even hints that might assist them in the hunt.”

            So you see, he was discussing the evolution of the book/poem from having a small audience to a huge audience, thanks in large part to Irene Rawlings and Margie Goldsmith.

          • Zap…that is precisely how I have interpreted that comment from Fenn. I keep the *other* perspective in mind…but I would not bet the farm on it. Another great example of trying to cram too many ideas between the lines.

          • Zap ~’ So you see, he was discussing the evolution of the book/poem…’

            I’m not seeing what you’re seeing…

            Does that make this part of the comment less important?
            ~ I am more than pleased with the way it has been accepted. **What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots**

            This type of addition to, for lack of a better term, has been used by fenn many times. The one I enjoy using as an example was fenn answering a question about sealing the jar… and add; ~although I’m not ready to say the chest is not in water. Which really had no purpose for the technique of sealing the jar or the question itself. { I say enjoy using because it is now, many years later after this question, indisputable }
            Another was when he was asked; Who else knows where the chest is buried? [paraphrasing]
            He correct the buried part [which he normally does], stated an 80 yr old is not going down and up a canyon… and finished with his wife doesn’t even know.
            Even though nothing was asked about an 80 yr old doing anything he add it to the question presented.

            Can you elaborate on what you mean by; So you see, he was discussing the evolution of the book/poem…’

          • Zap –

            I reject your idea that Forrest was surprised by the number of people.

            Clearly (IMO) he was surprised that people would go to maps early completely ignoring the direction to solve clues. he thought people would work to identify and solve the clues. No map would be needed until the clues were solved and the chaser then looked to marry them to the geography.

            Lugnutz

          • Zap, you’ve mentioned that interpretation before, but if we were to put the emphasis on:

            “What I DIDN’T EXPECT was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots.”

            We have to ask ourselves, why didn’t he expect that?

            I mean, it is a treasure worth a couple of millions, why didn’t he expect that a good number of people will immediately search maps? It must be because he knew that searchers were not understanding the difficulty of the blueprint.

          • Zap… lol were post over each other..

            Ok I can see what your saying with ‘NUMBER OF PEOPLE’
            But it really doesn’t diminish being ‘surprised’ about the use of maps [regardless of how many did]… we have other comments about using maps as well… marry the clues to a map… a map is a map, the more detailed the better [just to put up a couple]… so the repeated idea of using maps has been implied all along since that one comment.

            SO.. can we be seeing the layout of the poem, how to proceed properly, by the idea of how we read/see a map when looking ‘at’ it?… my river bank example shows one possible reason… a different perspective from botg vs. the map.

          • I know this is a boring response but it could be a little bit of both. He didn’t expect the large number of searchers including the number that went to maps for answers before giving the poem as much thought as needed.

          • Lug/Seeker: at least Ken sees it my way. 😉 There is no reason Forrest would be surprised that searchers would take to maps early and often. He hid the treasure somewhere specific that you and I have never been. Please tell me how we’re going to solve the clues without a map when we have to marry the clues to a place (or places) on a map?

            Now I agree that going straight to a map and trying to find the starting point without any idea of what you’re looking for is a fool’s errand. WWWH should start with a hypothesis of what it is, but without a comprehensive knowledge of the geography of the Rockies, I don’t see how the average person is going to be able to confirm that hypothesis without a map.

          • Addendum to Lugnutz: “No map would be needed until the clues were solved and the chaser then looked to marry them to the geography.”

            I thoroughly reject this idea. In my opinion, no one will ever solve a single clue without a map.

          • It matters not to the correct solve what Fenn actually meant.
            “I did not expect the story to get as big as it has, nor did I expect a few searchers to go to such great lengths in the hunt.”
            “I did not expect so many whole families would be in the search.”
            “I’m enjoying it, yeah, I didn’t expect it…you know, I always figured the treasure chest was a bomb, but I didn’t know it had a fuse until Dorothy came along. And a couple of other people that started giving publicity to the book.”
            “I was hoping the treasure chase would cause some excitement and get a few guys out into the mountains. I did not expect it to get so big so fast…”
            “It’s out of control. I think 30,000 looked for the treasure last summer(2014).”

          • Zap, how do you suppose a map helps people with WWWH, without knowing what they are looking for?

          • Hi Aaron — let me respond to your first point first:

            “… it could be a little bit of both. He didn’t expect the large number of searchers including the number that went to maps for answers before giving the poem as much thought as needed.”

            I agree that there is potential to be premature in going to maps. I know *I* was premature in doing so. I went systematically north to south through 7.5-minute topo maps looking for all features that matched any of the following: warm waters, canyon, home, Brown, meek, water high, wise, blaze and cold. (Probably a few others, too). 4000 topo maps and over a thousand hours spent. It’s not an unreasonable approach, but it turns out to be the wrong approach.

            You have to have the right idea from the get-go, and in my opinion a searcher is best served by putting blinders on about anything having to do with homes of Brown, meek places, high water, wisdom, blazes and coldness. It is premature to be thinking about those things before figuring out WWWH.

            Now, to your more recent question:

            “How do you suppose a map helps people with WWWH, without knowing what they are looking for?”

            IMO, if they can figure out Forrest’s word that is key, they will know what they are looking for.

          • Good collection of quotes, Ken. The common thread is one of astonishment over the number of people lured. How many times over the years has he told reporters the number of emails he’s gotten to that point?

          • That’s just the short list Zap. Like I said…it really matters not. This quote is from JDA upthread….”How easily we can convince ourselves that reality is something other than what it is- Just sayin’ ”
            Are maps important? I’m a map kind of guy…so…I believe the right map with the clues deciphered correctly is a no brainer.

          • Zap, your comment “You have to have the right idea from the get-go, and in my opinion a searcher is best served by putting blinders on about anything having to do with homes of Brown, meek places, high water, wisdom, blazes and coldness. It is premature to be thinking about those things before figuring out WWWH.” is funny to me because WWWH is the absolute last clue that I figured out! Having the others (minus the blaze…although I do have a theory) deduced, I sat on my solve for at least a year convinced I was wrong until I figured out what (*I think*) Fenn was referring to. The minute I put two and two together, I booked a flight. Wheels up and BotG in two days!!

            I’ve been lurking on this page for a while now and I know that you have your WWWH nailed down. I have to admit, I do wonder if it matches mine. I know you guys have all done BotG a ton of times but this is my first trip so I’m going back and forth between wanting to tell everyone my solve and no one my solve!! I think I’ll try to document our trip so that I can post about it when we get back (assuming we don’t have the treasure). I find it interesting to read about how others have gotten their solutions; even when they’re incorrect, it helps to see how folks’ minds work as it gives a new perspective to your own interpretation of the clues.

            IMO, WWWH is most definitely a place. But then again, in my solve the blaze is a plant so what do I know!

          • Hi ShaniBanani (cool name, btw): I do hope what you solved first was not home of Brown — Forrest seems pretty confident no one will figure that out without having been led to it by earlier clues.

            “I’ve been lurking on this page for a while now and I know that you have your WWWH nailed down. I have to admit, I do wonder if it matches mine.”

            I’m confident they’re different. You’re obviously excited to make your first BOTG trip — congratulations! Just make sure you respect the weather — things can change in the Rockies in a heartbeat. I look forward to your trip report when you return.

          • Thanks, Zap! Or should I say Zafe? I saw others address you as Zap so I followed suit but I’m assuming your name is a HHGttG reference so I would guess that Zap is an incorrect pronunciation? Loved the movie, loved the books even more. Anyway, to answer your question, no. I didn’t figure out HoB until nearly the end. (F is right though in that if he told folks what HoB was, there would be a stampede to the area that the chest is in.) I think I basically solved the 8 clues (minus the blaze) backwards. I used the poem and a map (and, I confess, some local knowledge, as I used to live in my general search area. Yes, yes, I know, confirmation bias!) but that’s all. Oh, I did use google search to look up plant/bush names and whether they’re indigenous to the search area on a hunch and it led me to what I think I’m going to find is indeed the blaze. Personally I think Indulgence is sitting there nice and pretty underneath a ragweed sagebrush bush just waiting for me to claim her. I am thoroughly stoked to get this hunt going (less than 24 hours and counting!). I’m not as concerned about the weather as I am about bears. It’s hyperphagia time in bear land and I don’t want to accidentally become dinner! I have bear spray, whistles and I think I’m going to pick up a bottle of ammonia when I get there because I read that they don’t care for the smell.

          • Hi ShaniBanani: any abbreviation is fine (and of course you are correct about the origin). I would have preferred to go with just Zaphod or Beeblebrox, but both of those avatars are naturally long-since taken. (Much preferred the books and BBC radio shows to the movie, but that’s usually the case with SyFy.)

            If you used to live in your current search area, then you would have one advantage over most others: “a comprehensive knowledge of the geography” — at least for your immediate area. In this case, it might be possible to solve some clues “collectively” via their mutual proximity, but I still think that’s pretty unlikely. Forrest would have thought of that, and I don’t think he would have wanted to give “locals” an unfair advantage over everyone else.

            “Personally I think Indulgence is sitting there nice and pretty underneath a ragweed sagebrush bush just waiting for me to claim her.”

            That idea would seem to run counter to the idea that the clues could be solved a century or a millennium from now.

            “I’m not as concerned about the weather as I am about bears. It’s hyperphagia time in bear land and I don’t want to accidentally become dinner!”

            Always good to be prepared. Since you’re obviously searching in either Montana or Wyoming, your primary danger at this time of year is going to be the elements/weather. Safety-wise, we’ve had a VERY good search year in 2018, I’m sure much to Forrest’s relief.

        • Zap, you said “IMO, if they can figure out Forrest’s word that is key, they will know what they are looking for.”

          Right, which is what we need to poem for hence the poem before the maps.

          • Right, if the key is needed to locate the right wwwh, why run to the maps?

            Which comment came out first, this one in question or the word that is key comm?

        • Hi Tim, not sure exactly what you are doing with the reflections but if you needed to invert the image for whatever reason you could use a concave mirror. Look into the bowl of a spoon at arms length.

  19. I’ve mentioned this before. Why does the scrapbook of fishing pictures in TTOTC have everything geographically located east, on the left side of the page…and everything geographically located west is on the right side of the page?

    New tidbit….In the story about White Horse Canyon in Arizona (the one with the sketch that has “clue” or “clever” embedded in his belt)….why does he reference the canyon as being west when it’s geographically east?

    • Wayne;

      As mentioned before, this “looks” like a photo out of a page of a photo album that was created by Forrest. Why created by Forrest? because of the caption ME – MOM and FATHER. Who else would have made these captions? Because of the age of the pictures, the color of the page, and the tear on the bottom, it is logical (at least to me) that this page was laid out MANY, MANY years ago – Probably LONG before Forrest thought up the “Chase.” Who knows when it was laid up though.

      Why don’t you contact Jenny and have her ask Forrest when he laid out this page, and ask him why he put things “Backwards” as relates to a map.

      If I had laid out the page, I am SURE I would have never given a thought to east/west as related to the layout of the PIC’s

      Two PIC’s of my dad (FATHER) on the left – A PIC of my MOM and DAD on the right – PIC of ME on the left – June on the right – Fish in the center. – Page Balanced – end of story – at least for me.

      If he had of reversed the layout, you or someone else would have found a reason to question that – The answers are in the poem, NOT in the layout of an old picture album – or at least that is how I see it – JDA

      • P.S. – Wayne – You seem to be hung up on this. Can I ask why?
        Do you somehow see a hint here? If so, what is the hint? Are we back to the mirror thing – look at everything backwards? If not everything, what things are we supposed to look at backwards, and what things not?

        Begin (end) it where warm (cool) waters (soil) halt (Start).
        and take (give) it in the canyon (Mountain) down (up), Not far (far) but too far (very near) to walk (run), Put in (get out or launch) below (above) the home (a hovel) of Brown (White or some other color).

        Sure could get confusing couldn’t it?

        Just askin’ – JDA

        • JDA & Wayne,
          I dont think we need to visually see anything backwards. I think we must be able to imagine it back in time.

          And Ive now forgotten who recently stated (today I think) that geography is all about maps. No! It isnt. Geography has a lot of sub catagories and one of them involves understanding how specific land features came to exist in the first place. You can’t get that from a map. You can get that from the answers you already know and I guess if you dont know anything or even “suspect anything” then you may need that comprehensive study of geography that FF said “might help”

    • Hi Wayne: looks more like “COSUBX” to me, but that’s without the benefit of a magnifying glass.

    • Wayne,
      I honestly don’t see the geographical perspective that I think you are talking about. It appears to be a geographical mishmash to me. As an example, water hole is east of nine mile hole and also east of Watkins creek and I believe even east of Mount Haynes.

      The interesting points about those 2 pages for me has always been the fact that it is 2 wholes pages. I believe it’s the only instance throughout TTOTC where that occurs. So when you turn over to those pages, that brown color palette really has a strong first impression, and IMO creates the outline of a home (foundation outline). iIt’s part of FLYWATER which I do believe is an important chapter in TTOTC that contains one of the two “good” hints. Not suggesting this is one of those hints but the 2 page full layout managed to command my full attention as I turned to the next page.

      I have always wondered why Skippy didn’t make the 2 page family photo layout. There was plenty of room. Where’s Skippy? Maybe he didn’t like fishing…I really don’t know.

      With that said, you now know all of my thoughts about these pages. So unless you elaborate on your thoughts in a similar way I am not sure I can fully weigh in on your theory. Not that my opinion matters, just trying to help.

      Best of luck to you on the chase. Jeff

  20. Zaphod,
    Ive been saying for a long time that if you cant figure out WWWH before you look at a map, you wont find it. I firmly believe it is among the “answers I already know”. IMO, you must think of the place first and then find it on a map. But also my opinion that if you cannot see how it relates to HOB (and not just on the map), you wont get a correct solve. IMO

    • Flutterby: I partially agree with you, insomuch as the general idea of what Forrest’s warm waters are is something most people ought to be able to figure out for themselves without consulting a map (unless they grew up under a log.) Knowing where they halt is another matter, and more relevantly, the specific point that Forrest is using for WWWH is not something 1 in a 10,000 people would know, in my opinion, without consulting a map.

  21. CharlieM,
    Where CAN be a place in time. Actually, I think we are looking for a hole in time. An uncomformity. A piece of time that didnt get recorded, like an asterisk in a book that was never written.. Im pretty firm in this belief. I think the poem tells us this. IMO

    • After my previous post about looking for a place in time or actually a missing place in time that didn’t get recorded, I decided to look up the definition of TIME. I think time is important in the poem. It certainly caught my attention that when FF tossed Catcher in the Rye into the trashcan, it landed on top of TIME magazine. I see a huge hint here.

      So look what I found when I looked up the definition of time. “plan, schedule, or arrange when (something) should happen or be done” As always, I’m traveling and don’t have my book handy. Where did FF mention in the book that he wasn’t sure if he could “make things happen like they are supposed to”? That apparently is one definition of time. (google)

      Merriam-Webster gives one definition as, ” a historical period : AGE” FF constantly talks about age in TTOTC. So, AGE is related to TIME.

      Merriam-Webster also gives the word TURN as a definition of TIME. Can’t recall the page number in TTOTC, but FF said that if any reader over the age of 12 (or is it 13) doesn’t see a little of themselves in the stories, perhaps that person needs another TURN. (this is paraphrasing-I’m sure somebody has the exact quote)

      If you have “no time” according to Merriam-Webster, you must do something quickly. Like “look quickly down”?

      I’m just gonna spend some time thinking about time.

      • Flutterby,

        You are correct with finding the correct WWWH, that it is related to time & history and now Forrest. It was there for a purpose back in time and it was there for a purpose for Forrest. In fact a few of the poem clues have a place in time in the ares history, and to me this is why Forrest wants that truck load of kids out there looking. So they can see things that time has seemed to forget. WWWH is a two part answer, what it is and where it is, and knowing Forrest past plus a big hint in the TTOTC book can help get you there.

        Gook luck,
        Bur

    • Flutterby,

      A hole in time-?- not recorded?
      Maybe you could elaborate. I’m curious to what your thoughts are here.

      Some folks argue the idea because of the comment “Plain English” as if that was meant as; simple common language. Personally I think this was more about; not using other languages to mix match a clue’s reference.
      We also have fenn telling us what he did during the process of writing the poem ~ Look up words and definitions of words… it came out exactly as he wanted.
      The thing is, just reading the poem alone, we can see past and present tense. I mean, we have two sections of this poem that seemingly state; someone went [have gone] somewhere, and another section seemingly saying, leaving [must go]…The first is past tense, the second in present tense.
      Or is it?
      I get it, the idea is fenn went and hide the chest and now is basically waiting for his final days, idea. But something bothers me about that thought. The second section is answered as past tense… Done it. So I can read the poem as; gone and leave as being in the same past tense or time… Even the line; NF,BTFTW poetically can refer to time past… NF in time, But can’t physically go back in time.
      The idea is to read the poem as if you are someone from the future, and would have read it. Which would mean fenn has gone to that banquet table vs. waiting to pass, line of thinking. WE tend to read it as we see it now, fenn still living and breathing. But, is that the way it was meant to be read as?

      Even though Forrest ruined the ‘story’ – the intent of the poem doesn’t really change, the reason why it/this all began, to ‘take it with him’… I think ‘leave’ is intended as past tense in the thought; he never walked away… hence; “.. as I was closing the chest for the last time, I felt part of me slip inside and become part of the treasure, or at least I thought I did. I’m okay with that now.”

      The simple point is… the poem start in the past, it ‘basically’ ends in the past [ original reasoning for doing this challenge ]… are the clues referencing places, on a geological scale, that any present time searcher [ be it 2009, 2019 or 3009 plus ] would read the poem’s clues representing those clues on/in a past time scale, and still, representing the same location as it sits today or tomorrow.

      Is it possible this is the idea of the “important possibility” for a winning solve?
      Is the theory more about use of imagination [ in any searcher’s time span ]?
      Does it even help explain why folks can figure the first couple of clues [references], yet not really knowing they did and go by everything else?
      Is this theory; thinking the right thoughts?
      Does this theory/idea possibly help nail down, learn, what WWH might refer to?

      Right or wrong… the common theme of the solves being presented [ stomping point to point, only ] has failed miserably. Even if this method is needed/correct……… something is still missing, and it seems to be right at the beginning.

      • Seeker…interesting perspective. For conversational purposes I was attempting to fully understand how this example may be utilized to narrow down/nail down/learn *what* wwh refers to. I get the overall gist of what you are proposing in terms of *time*. I do run into a disconnect of sorts when I try to reconcile the difference between *geography* and *geology*. What I recollect about those two studies is that *geography* distinctly deals with the physical *shapes* of land, in terms of *mapping*, describing the lengths of rivers, extents of mountain ranges, coastlines etc. from a perspective of people/s. The science of geology mainly deals with the *ingredients*of what the ground is made of. The suffixes are self explanatory; *graphy* = draw or record. *ology*= find knowledge of.

        Anyway…that is where I get lost….unless you are trying to really say that your time theory relates to a *map*….maybe from an earlier time…which would actually help put an *X* on “where”…and perhaps help explain *what*?

        • another foggy thought… an X has 5 points, 4 ends and an intersection. Doesn’t really matter where the ends are as long as their intersection is in the correct place. What is the intersection point in the poem? Where is it… in the poem, on a map, in time, in Fenn’s memoirs?

          • one leg of the X could be longer than the other…. may not be the middle of a letter count or a word count …. more an idea match-point. Donno. Still foggy.

        • Ken,
          Fenn explained movement will have an impact in the future. The idea [above] is the same, working from a past time… in conjunction with today and all the tomorrow{s}, with tomorrow’s generations looking at it as well.

          The idea will not hand anyone what WWH refers to… it is only a different perspective of what we should be looking at / learn of-?- when the correct WWH is deciphered.. In theory.

          I’m just looking at this in the attempt to; think the right thoughts, and why searchers on site are walking around like a chicken with its head cut off.
          Not many will chat along these line of thought. Maybe because their solves wouldn’t work if they did? And a lot of folks just don’t want to think of the time invested might be wrong… LOL heck I don’t blame them.
          Only when I see a flat tire, I know it’s flat all around and not just on the bottom.

          • Wait…a flat tire isn’t just flat on the bottom? Well…you asked a bunch of questions at the end of your idea based on a *geological scale* later explained as on/in a past time scale. I was trying to understand what you are talking about *exactly* given that Fenn has only talked about “geography” not geology. I think it is a given that land *features* may be impacted by time…which probably may have some bearing on the hidey place. I also think that Fenn thought about that quite a bit. Because he was confident that this special place would be ideal for his purposes…it wouldn’t be a big stretch to have confidence that the features surrounding the location have been fairly stable for a long time. That may be something important to focus on? There is no doubt in my thinking that *time* plays a part in this riddle…the question remains…how old is old, and how new is new ?

          • I’m pretty sure a flat tire is only flat on the bottom. The rest of the tire is round but both are pretty much out of usable air. As for WWWH, “warm” seems to be a difficult word to decipher. “Warm” in relation to what? Cold? Cool? Cooler? Colder? “Waters” requires more than one “water”. So, you not only have to find one “warm” water; you need two, or more. Where do they halt? Perhaps ” Warm Waters” isn’t water at all. I’m not up on all the native american creation stories but it would not surprise me to learn that the first clue isn’t about water at all, but a metaphor describing something meaningful to people of the past.

          • That’s funny Bob…that’s what I was thinking about the tire. The *waters* dilemma is one that I believe throws folks off to the extent of not understanding the complete description. This may have a tendency to make folks head off in the wrong direction ?

          • Ken,

            Let me us tower falls in YSP as an example;
            Basically the tower are left after erosion of different material rock was eaten away by the spring at the top pf the falls. To understand something like this, geology come into play along with geography. Both the same field of science.. the study of the landscape and how it became and becomes.
            The idea is, are we to know more about whatever wwh refers to than just a geographical location? IF, would understanding that include time involvement? I would think so.

            IF wwh is connected to the CD [ back bone of the RM’s ] is there a reason for knowing a specific spot on the CD and why? Would a time factor be involved. The main idea is the way the poem seems to read as past tense… do we need to know anything about the past of WWH or any other clue… to get the ‘right thoughts’

            I’m giving thoughts and ideas for why folks may have walked through an area with clues and not understood them, because of the landscape and its changes… past, present and future idea.

            I don’t have answers, lol you’ll have to ask some others for those who claim it… failed, and claim even more of what is right and what is wrong.

          • Yeah I get it Seeker. However…Geography is distinguished and taught by five principles;
            Location; every point on earth has a location, exact or relative
            Place; area defined by features
            Human environment interaction; how people interact w/ environment
            Movement; travel of people, goods, ideas
            Region; areas w/ distinctive characteristics; climate, vegetation, demographics, politics, etc.
            So…I’m still confused, but see what you are trying to say.

          • geology; the science that deals with the earth’s physical structure and substance, its history, and the processes that act on it.

            The example of Towerfalls and the effect of erosion that created the tower by the minerals in the spring eating away the once lime stone… which in a theory would give us heavy loads and why… Are we to know why? Are we to know anything else to figure out the correct clues that many seem to just go on by… Geography is simply the study of the land and what changes its gone through…
            ~ Geography; the study of the **physical features** of the earth and its atmosphere, and of human activity **as it affects and is affected by these…**
            ~Geology; the science that deals with the earth’s * physical structure * and substance, *its history,* and the *processes that act on it*;
            *The geological features of an area.*

            They work hand in hand. I used the word to defined the theory of how the past to the present changes an area, and will have the same affect ‘down the road’. The point is.. we see an area as it is now, are we to understand how it got this way to understand the remaining clues?
            Is this idea the way a future generation {a millennium or more} would also see the poem. A thousand years in the past… maybe we need to as well.
            Two key point come into affect;
            “Down the road” thinking…
            “Preciseness” movement of the land will have an impact.

            LOL it’s not Rocket Science…

          • Hi Seeker,

            I like your post above. All of it.

            Time (past, present and future as it relates to the terrain and the poem). I like your idea of the relationships between the Physical Processes and the resulting land features (massive mountain building, valleys, canyons, ravines, water features, erosion, mass wasting, etc.). The two sciences do seem to go hand in hand, as you said. I like it!

            Funny, you said: “not rocket science”.

            LOL…it’s Rocky science.

            All IMO.

            SRW

          • Weekend greetings, Seeker. Your recent post discussed geology — in particular, an example of the associated process of differential erosion of minerals, and the resulting lag structures. Since such geological forces are at work the globe over, it would not seem to be a profitable avenue for identifying a specific location from poem clues.

            Geography, on the other hand, can be quite location-specific. A caldera is a caldera, and a mountain is a mountain, but give either a name and now you’ve got something to work with.

            The extensive history of your posts reveals that at least to some degree you are time-fixated — that you believe there is some crucial element to solving Forrest’s puzzle that has an element of time involved. While it is fine to have that in your quiver as a possibility, I would not make the mistake of assuming that time MUST play a role in the solution. Personally, I don’t think time will play any role at all — at least not for anyone currently alive. If the wrong places change names, it will be marginally more difficult for a future searcher to solve Forrest’s puzzle. I say “marginally” because we’ve long since reached the technological stage where name changes aren’t a deterrent: the web doesn’t forget. No one in the year 3009 is going to use a 3009 map to solve Forrest’s poem.

          • Seeker…I’m not mocking you. You don’t know the difference between two distinct studies…big deal.

            “What’s more important in solving the search, a greater knowledge(knowledge) of Toponomy or Geography?”

            “I don’t know how Toponomy can help you at all Chris(I had to look that word up. But if you knew the geographical location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure. F ”

            “Can hunters really get to the treasure location with just a good map, the poem, and a decent knowledge of words?”

            “I wrote the book for everyone with a sense of wanderlust. In your last question if you change the last word to geography, my answer would be yes.”

            “I never was close to my sister in later years. Part of it was geography but we were philosophically opposite.”

            Fenn’s not a rocket scientist either Seeker…but he does know what geography is…and I’m pretty sure that is why he has said it is helpful.

          • Zap, and Ken…
            Zap ~’If the wrong places change names, it will be marginally more difficult for a future searcher to solve Forrest’s puzzle. I say “marginally” because we’ve long since reached the technological stage where name changes aren’t a deterrent: the web doesn’t forget. No one in the year 3009 is going to use a 3009 map to solve Forrest’s poem.’

            This is my point. Relying on Technology, thinking the challenge is basically for this stage in time [ our time now ] The use of names [for deciphering a clue] that many places throughout the us in the last 100 years. The name game is find when we use a name to explain a solve… But does it matter what place’s name is compared to how it became?
            Example Earth Quake lake. Is it the name that is important or the creation of it?

            I’m sure some will say; Seeker GE is technology. Yep, so is the printing-press for maps… but it doesn’t make the press important. GE is nothing more than a picture of the land. The we have the internet… that is nothing more than a convenience. before that we had books, before that we had stories/tellings. Heck, the Native American’s history is mostly hundreds of years of stories past down, with little information written by them. Long before that there has been etchings in stone…
            Navigation for centuries never used maps… it was all about the landscape, and sky [ sunrise and set… constellations… a fixed norther star etc. ]

            Yep, fenn said look at maps. he also told us he looked up words and their meaning by “googling” them. That’s all great for having these convenience. Only are we missing the idea of what is right in front of us [ while botg ] because we don’t know a dang thing about the geology of where we are? Are our noses glues to maps and GPS and I pads… we forget to see the land?
            LOL L&C work [ discovering the N. W. passage would have been a lot easier today lol]
            Poor Joe Meek would have need to climb that mountain to find a passage through the area.

            We’re missing something right at the get-go, I’m pretty sure it’s not about the name of the location where WWH, or even where it is… That as been done, yet apparently that doesn’t seem to be enough. WHY? why by fenn’s account folks have deciphered, indicated, solved, mentioned clues… but seemingly didn’t know-?- while on site? And more than likely they all got there by some map.

            How should I put this, umm… Big Whoop, folk got first clue[s] or, found the location of the clue[s], others could have the first four clues possibility ‘mapped out’ or told fenn ‘where’ they were [ we don’t know the specific of where that info came from ]… What is missing? My suggestion is… we may not be looking at the landscape as we should.

            If your dead-set that this challenge was more or less meant for this generation only… well, simply dismiss my ideas. I’m looking at this as if I was a future searcher… because fenn seemed to have “down he road” in mind as well. I also think that to accomplish that… the past needs to be workable in other generations/ years/ decades/ millenniums {possibly}

            Fenn also said he wished he could have been born a 100 years ago… {1830?} LOL I dare say all those maps we are looking at don’t have HWY 191 on it. LOL… MT didn’t become a state until 1889, WY 1890, NM 1912, CO 1876.
            So I personally can’t rely on the ideas, example ~ MT is the place to be because its slogan is the “treasure state” line of thinking.

            Ken, while fenn never specifically inferred geology… the idea is more about ‘how’ geography of the landscape changes under normal, natural conditions of the the whole process… “the RM’s are still moving” If he was thinking down the road while creating the clues, I’m gonna look in both direction…

          • Seeker: I still think you’re missing the point about the longevity (or lack thereof) of place names on the long Chase timescales that Forrest has frequently suggested. If a place’s name changes between 2010 and 2110 or 3110, it makes no difference. The information will still exist, and the relevant name can be found. Example: Istanbul, Constantinople, Byzantium, Stamboul, Augusta Antonina, Lygos. If a treasure hunt poem used this city for one of its clues, the epoch of the poem would dictate the proper name to use.

          • Zap
            IF, for example only, a clue refers /hint refers to one of the “states”… for argument sake… this poem would not be solvable prior to [ lets say ] 1912 should we consider that ‘information was not available until a the four remaining states became states… Folks think I can kill a solve, Ha! Zap you could have wiped out half the searchers who have a state as a clue.

            Ok seriously… In reality it does seem there could be at least one clue we may need that ‘might’ not have been around when fenn was a kid. Assuming it’s a physical clue, rather than directional or instructional. However I still have to think about the comment “GE and/or a good map” If GE is the same as a good map… what exactly are the ‘details’ fenn talks about in ‘agent 777’ Q&A?

            We can look at old maps that show the coast lines of the Americas… with no labels of those continents, only depictions of mountains, waterways, standing/pools water, woodland etc. and still see the layout of the land without names. {that is only an example, not saying we need ‘those’ maps ] But the idea GE is simply an image of the land from a Birdseye few is the same, and so is a map. Which brings me to; fenn talking about covering Philly and the impact it had on him and the graves of the French soldiers story.
            Did it, does it matter what city’s name was involve or the idea, or a populated area? Did it matter what ‘country’s’ the French soldiers were in, or that they just seem to be forgotten, hidden in the past, forgotten in the present, and probably never discovered again for years to come… Does it matter at all that the RM range runs through ‘states’ or is it more important to know about the range itself?

            Don’t get me wrong, I have used names of places in the attempt as well… just slightly different than others have. I mean, if all the information is in the poem to find the chest… looking for names needs some kinda coding, metaphor, creating a name for a place, an answer from the book etc… { creating a name, idea, is like treasure state for MT, line of thinking when Montana is not mentioned in the poem. }

            What I find interesting is the need for information to be searchable beyond the idea of; landscape [ geography ] The poem, The book…. should the book be that important… wouldn’t it be more important the just “subtle hints”– if names are so important to know of?

            I can’t argue 100% of anything I suggest for thought… I can argue that looking at places by their names, titles, labels on a map/add to a satellite picture etc. has not produce much of anything… regardless of what language those names are in.
            Just saying……….

          • Seeker…my whole point was not really about refuting the use of geology…it was more about the precision factor of finding a location. Further…my premise was not based on what I believe…it is more about what Fenn has repeatedly told us and his use of certain words and the content of his stories. In all…he has most certainly spoken of *people/s* and his deep interest in their place in time and the roles they played and his desire to have experienced what they did. The human aspect at a time in a place set in an environment. This screams Geography at its core more than any other science.

            We are tasked with deciphering clues that give us a *location* on a map. If the location has a name, I seriously doubt it is spelled out in a manner that is definitive. I believe that is a big part of the mystery we are tasked with learning. There is no way to predict with a high level of precision how a given location will change geologically through time…so…to me, it is a nudge that this special place needs to be one that has remained fairly stable through a very long period without any major changes, and will remain that way unless human recklessness interferes. I appreciate your *view* on the subject of time, and agree that it is wise to keep the avenues open and not get steamrolled by any one way of looking at something. Rose colored glasses are not going to solve this riddle…*details* are more important.

      • Seeker,

        “Geography, the study of the diverse environments, places, and spaces of Earth’s surface and their interactions. . . .named some 2,000 years ago by the Greeks, whose geo and graphein were combined to mean “earth writing” or “earth description.””(https://www.britannica.com/science/geography)

        The formations we see on the earth today are there because of past events that caused mountains to rise, valleys to be carved out, water and wind erosion to shape the land we see today. What we see today is like a written history preserving the record of past events. When you walk into the RMs and you look at a land feature, what does it tell you? Can you recognize what caused it? Do you know enough about the way geographical features are formed to have a good idea of what you are really looking at? Or do you just see a stream, a rock, a canyon, etc.?

        “Geography word of the week: Unconformity
        Unconformity: An interruption between layers of rock, in which the upper layer is much younger (even by more than a billion years) than the lower layer.” (https://www.canadiangeographic.ca/article/geography-word-week-unconformity)

        The following website gives us some incite into uncomformities. Please don’t assume that because this is a Colorado website, that this is my search state. I just like the way this website describes an uncomformity. http://coloradogeologicalsurvey.org/colorado-geology/structures/unconformities/

        “Unconformities
        Unconformity is the general term for missing pages of Earth history. There are three types of unconformities (below): angular unconformity, nonconformity, and disconformity.An angular unconformity (left) is an erosional surface separating steeply dipping rock layers below from gently dipping layers above. Nonconformity (middle) is an erosional surface separating igneous or metamorphic rocks below from sedimentary strata above. Disconformity (right) is an erosional surface separating horizontal strata below from horizontal strata above and where there is a gap in time. (http://coloradogeologicalsurvey.org/colorado-geology/structures/unconformities/)

        Now I’m certain at this point that somebody is going to refer us all back to an earlier discussion we had about whether geology (study of rocks) is a part of the study of geography. FF has told us that a comprehensive study of geography may help us solve the poem. While geology (study of rocks) is different that geography, it is important to know that the geography that exists today is there becaue of events in the past that have shaped the land into what we now see, and that also relates to geology.

        In TTOTC, FF talked about an asterisk in a book that was never written. I think this is a hint that the poem will take us to a place where the geography contains an uncomformity, a piece of earth’s history that is missing. If we insist upon understanding the entire history of the uncomformity, we would have to delve into geology. But, I don’t think we have to do that in order to recognize a geographical land formation that contains an uncomformity. Its pretty easy to see places in the Rocky Mountains where older rock is stacked on top of younger rock, caused by uplift and shifting of the earth’s surface.

        Seeker, you said, “we have two sections of this poem that seemingly state; someone went [have gone] somewhere, and another section seemingly saying, leaving [must go]…The first is past tense, the second in present tense.
        Or is it?”

        I do not think “someone went somewhere”. I think these “plain English” words are saying that someTHING went somewhere. I believe this poem is describing a natural process that has occured, and is still occuring and will continue to occur.

        I also believe the TC which according to FF “is for the ages”, literally is deposted in an uncomfority that we can find if we understand what we are looking for. That quote everyone likes to use about only one way, “there is no other way to my knowledge”. I don’t think this is referring to getting from point A to point B and so on along the path on the map. I think it is saying that there is only one way to learn what FF knows that will lead us to the TC. Understanding the poem is the only way to learn what FF knows that will guide us to the correct solution.

        I’m continuing to look at unconformities. I find them quite interesting. I think we have to find the asterisk in the book of earth’s history that was never written.

        All my opinion of course.

      • Hey Tim thanks for your reply – well wwwh could be on top of a mountain if it fits your salve- mine is at the beginning near santa fe – one thing for sure Tim if it don’t work there are more wwwh that we can choose from good luck and again thanks

  22. Hey guys,
    For those, who have a long history with the poem and also, Mr. Fenn’s comments, I have a question.
    Has he always used just a “f” to sign?
    Does anybody here know how he signed, when the Chase first began?
    That’s what I’m really looking for….His early signature patterns.
    Thanks
    Clearly Clueless

        • I written this here before, but I’m still really struck by it: Forrest Fire was listed in the credits of one of the eps near the end of the first season of Longmire, set in WY.

          • Was it this episode in season 5? #50 (7th in season 5) – “From This Day Forward”

            “…A body is found in a hollow tree. A poem about a treasure has gone viral and treasure hunters have started appearing in the area….”

  23. Weather reports for Montana and Colorado seem to indicate that the 2018 search season may be coming to an end in the Northern Rockies.

    • Yes, I’m in W.Y. And it’s very cold (30s and low 40s for highs) but dry at least for the moment. Will be BOTG today and hopefully not tomorrow. Jeff

      • Hey Jeff where at in Wyo are you? I was supposed to make it down to Atlantic City this summer but life gots in the way… 🙂 So cool you live in the search areas I’m jealous!

        • Im pretty sure I know where you are searching Jeff. Good luck. But, I think you might still be missing some clues. Cant wait to hear about your solve when you are done. And if you dont find it, I would be interested in sharing ideas via Email. I think we might have some ideas in common

  24. Help please.
    And old subject that has been beat to death I’m sure, but I need a refresher course.
    In your opinion, because we can’t give legal advice here.
    In your opinion list the area you are not allowed to search in…
    And, then list the areas you believe you can search in….
    NO NO
    Indian lands
    Private property
    Unsafe and stupid places ….. LOL
    YES
    National Parks
    State Parks ?
    National Wilderness ?
    National Preserve ?

    Help guys, am I on track, what am I missing.
    Thanks
    Clearly Clueless

      • Linda,

        I would be wary of BLM land as there is a lot of land that is privately owned. BLM directs to the owner of proper land management to preserve and restore land that was damaged.

        The idea that BLM is not owned by other parties is a folly deception.

        Just Say’n

        • I would not rule out any property based on anything outside the poem. The poem should guide us to the TC. IMO

        • But yet he buried a bell on land managed by the BLM. It’s pretty easy to prove that during your path to the chest, you may come to where he buried a bell. Makes sense. And, that could be the bell that he buried on land managed by the BLM. I agree with Linda.

    • CC,

      Personally?!
      A couple things come to mind. While a kinda agree with the thinking process… the process is nothing more than a rabbit wholes of eliminations strictly from a legal aspect. That alone can cause a RX for Zanax.

      The other thought is… The tftw book, which contains a map with highlighted areas of said lands. Why place them there is we shouldn’t consider them? I would think they are there to give a heads up for the exact line of thinking you are doing. BUT just how helpful is it?
      Your NO NO lands, IMO are spot on, and we do have ATF’s that seem to imply as such. Example; in one interveiw about Indian bad spirit problems… fenn answered {in part} about not taking things of Indian reservations.
      So with the idea of the ATF’s in mind… can we eliminated further? If we take the comment about; some places we should stay on designated trial… it kinda rules out a place like “YSNP”… lol but don’t tell anyone I said that. I can hear the moans, cheers and sneers already.
      The one thing fenn stated about this type of thought process your attempting, seems to imply; What if there are no legal questions?

      It’s really a hard row to hoe when thinking about this with any legal thought in mind… well, maybe one place comes to my mind.

      • Thanks Seeker!
        And, don’t tell anyone, but I agree with your “YSNP” theory, yet I typically stay out of the debates.
        CC

      • Seeker,
        Are you going to share your one place…. Which comes to mind?
        I’m listening….
        CC

    • CLEARLY,
      On PUBLIC lands Search where your solve takes you, & if you find it., keep yer yap zippered untill FF has the bracelet sent to him anonymously.

    • Can search in:
      land managed by the Bureau of Land Management. Like the bells story.
      Free places.
      Any place where you wouldn’t get in trouble for being there.
      Places with trails.
      Places that do not allow motorized vehicles.

      No-No:
      Private property.
      Places that cost money to get into.
      Near high traffic highways.
      Indian burial grounds/ Indian lands.

    • NO NO
      Indian lands
      Private property
      Unsafe and stupid places ….. LOL

      Agreed. Anything else is fair game, despite potential ramifications (eg. see rules re: finding an object in The National Parks)

  25. It seems almost a given, that Mr. Fenn spread Olga’s ashes in the type of place he would have chosen for himself, a location with an eternal spring time setting, or close to it. Somewhere not frozen solid all winter long.

  26. Mr. Fenn, having said that “he knows the chest is wet” suggests to me, that the chest is in a temperate climate. Somewhere there’s always moisture in the air, to condense out on the chest. IMO

    • James,
      Have you looked up the definitions of the word wet? I did, and came up with some interesting things.

      • Hi Flutterby, Personally, I take wet to mean just that. Mr. Fenn has told us so many times, that everything about the chase is straight forward, with no deception. At the beginning of the chase, searchers were looking at the poem as a set of straight forward instructions. That’s when Mr. Fenn was most active on the blogs. Then searchers being frustrated by the poem started coming up with other ideas to try and solve it. That’s when Mr. Fenn started saying that searchers were over thinking the poem, and he began to loose interest in the blogs, because searchers were not listening to what he was saying, like they didn’t really care what he was saying. In a way the chase had stolen his thunder.

        • I dont think that a less common definition straight from the dictionary is FF being deceptive. He himself has said “we ought to learn the definitions of some of our words”

        • James ~’Mr. Fenn has told us so many times, that everything about the chase is straight forward, with no deception.

          He has also stated “probably wet” and ~ how can anything in the RM’s [ even buried ] not be wet.

          Many use “warm” as a temperature, some relate that to fishing. Some use “cold” as a temperature an relate that to elevation, winter, glaciers and on and on. All having reasonable thought in an attempt to use those words as only meaning temperature. Although, fenn was asked what warm means to him… comfortable.

          If we think about warm as comfortable, maybe even pleasurable… warm can be of a color, for example.
          Which in one idea could refer to a line of thinking as, for example; ‘Yellow’stone lake, river, the place. But the more common idea of warm is what ‘we’ think it should be… a temperature.

          If I said; If you want to see NYC, go to the Empire State building observation deck and “take it in”.
          In no way does “take it in” mean a movement, right?
          IF I was attempting a poetic in manner, I could add; “the canyon down” { a poetic interpretation of a canyon, in this idea } to mean; tall sides of buildings in a row with a low floor [ or road and side walks ].
          The descriptions /definitions fit the words descriptions of what one would see, right?……. in a poem. interpretation is the main idea of reading a poem. Heck there are group meeting and classes just for ‘interpretations of poetry’

          While the above is honest to the word usages, the idea is not about the first definition that pops into anyone’s mind, but more to fenn’s intent of the words.

          Have you ever thought why fenn said; the chest is not ‘underwater’?
          I think it explains the chest not covered completely or submerged, yet still allows the chest to have moisture on it… even IF that moisture comes from liquid within dirt / soil itself.

          Wet refers to ‘anything’ in liquid form… or holds liquid with in it. We are mostly made of liquid, idea.

          We have been told to analyze and think… That process is not always ‘straightforward’ until all is understood. Not unlike riddles… until the riddle is known, is when everyone one say; Why didn’t I think of that. A riddle, not unlike a poem, needs the word usages/meanings to be just right, to become straightforward… I think many here hope it’s the other way around.

          Fenn even used the word ‘Canyon’ in the book relating to the cracks in his hands. Did he misuse the word? Is it deceptive the way he used canyon?

          We have been told this challenge will be done mostly but imagination… doesn’t imagination also include perception of what we see, and might not be what we think we see?… Like a mud puddle to an ant is an ocean. A different scale size, line of thinking.

          Can a waterfall be, for example wwh [ lets say 100 tall ] and we need to be at the bottom of it, be describe as; NF, [to that point at the bottom of the falls] but too far to walk [ more than that 100′ of travel ] for us to get there… maybe we would need to travel only 500′ to accomplish the task. [ example only]. or the idea of; more distance is needed to get to that short distance away
          Does this depiction meet the idea of NF,BTFTW. Or does that line ‘only’ means we ‘can’t or shouldn’t’ walk the distance? So we should drive, ride a horse or send a drone… ?

          Then again, I could be all ‘wet’ and a canyon can only mean one thing, big hole in the ground, miles and miles long, that we must travel around and/or in.

  27. James… a cute solve for Wet might be the Wet Mountains just north of NM in the east Sangre’s. As I recall from Wiki, there is a highway intersection know to the locals as the Bathtub Pass … due to an old clawfoot bathtub discarded on the corner. Proper name is McKenzoe Junction. So, the Bathtub intersection might be WWWH….. yeh, unlikely, but then there is this: the two little towns in the valley are designated as Colorado’s First International Dark-Sky communities. (Look up I.D.A. – incorporated in 1988, the year Fenn was diagnosed w/ Cancer)
    Makes me wonder about all that stuff in TTOTC about how ‘sitting on a gravestone at night makes you think’, and Eric Sloane’s ‘waiting for the light to change’. ……
    Posts have slowed down now at the end of summer, so I thought I would throw this out there for the curious at a dead end. Maybe there is something there to work with.

    • Hi OS2, The Wet Mountains sound like they could be a good WWWH. It does sound Fennzian. Thinking about the chest being wet. I think it would be in a place that was always damp, where it didn’t dry out or freeze. Like maybe in a valley with hot springs or geysers, sufficient to maintain a somewhat captured atmosphere, regardless of the surrounding weather or temperatures. Or in a sheltered glade, where it didn’t dry out or freeze.

    • Hi Jake;

      YUP – BotG #25 – Again empty handed – DARN. Oh well, it was another good trip. Did I learn anything? A couple of small things, but most of all, I learned that these trips are getting to be too much for this old man. I may have to turn it over to my step-kids. It is just exhausting – takes the fun out of it, and if I am not having fun, I need to do something a bit different – JDA

      • I sensed your presents in the wood.
        Sounds like you have PBOTGS – post boots on the ground syndrome.
        Get some rest and rethink things and then reload.
        Winter is right around the corner…

        No fun, time to run.

      • JDA,

        Didn’t fenn say [ a few different times ] he could go to the chest… I think.. at age 84 and 87?

        You said; but most of all, I learned that these trips are getting to be too much for this old man…

        25 trips in a three year period, to the same local with miles of hiking each trip?! LOL you’re not an old man, but more than likely, your solve is tired and weak.

  28. JDA you are not old but its like seeker said your solve is tired and weak and Jake said and I do to- get some rest rethink things and then reload winter is right a round the corner – I feel strong at 72 and if it wasn’t for my copd I would be out there also – but what ever you think good luck and good times—–frank

    • Thanks frank. Recharging my batteries, coming up with a new idea or two, and we will see what happens from here. Like I said, I MAY just have to leave it up to the younger guys for BotG, but I will ALWAYS be a part of the chase, until I or someone finds it. – JDA

      • Good to hear you will still be part of the chase JDA. I like your posts and ideas. You seem logical and determined. There are a couple of people who I would love to see locate the TC You are one of them.

  29. JDA,
    The mind is a powerful tool, it can take you anywhere in time, past, present, & future. The body has limits the mind does not have. IMO You CAN solve the poem from home, you only need BOTG to get the treasure. Age is but a number & the handicapped are still having fun!
    -B

    • BIRDIE,
      GOOD THOUGHTS.
      A short time back on a late
      nite, AM radio sta., an old
      treasure hunter was interviewed ;
      to paraphrase his words
      … ” successful treasure hunting
      is 99% research, and 1 % getting…”

  30. Hmm… what’s on TV in the Fenn household right now? The overtime Dallas-Houston NFL game locked up at 16-16, or Honey Boo Boo on Dancing with the Stars? Or both? 😉

  31. Anybody read the story about Ear Spring erupting in Yellowstone? Dormant since 1957…it spewed trash from the 1930’s…

    • Hi Ken: I think Sandy was hoping to check it and Steamboat out during her trip. Prior to her mentioning it, I had never heard of Ear Geyser!

      • Zaphod, I was wondering what state is your state of choice and if you are going to put botg again before it snows? I was Montana but now thinking Wyoming? What’s your thoughts?

      • MTMike: Montana, always Montana. Not planning to return until 2019. While snow is not yet a deterrent, I have other work and vacation plans that take precedence.

  32. Anyone ever read Buried Treasures of the Rocky Mountain West, about legends of lost mines, train robbery gold, caves of forgotten riches, and indians’ buried silver? If so, did you find anything related to this search?

    https://books.google.com/books?id=58aSz0RZeZEC&pg=PA4&lpg=PA4&dq=trove+rocky+mountains&source=bl&ots=UAgFVYdyxr&sig=fpowFLb-EIYLdICH5-v2KEGTVZE&hl=en&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjrjtP_vffdAhWmiFQKHQAoDTkQ6AEwC3oECAIQAQ#v=onepage&q=trove%20rocky%20mountains&f=false

  33. FF uses a lot of no, not, but, just to create negations and contradictions in his poem. (I include “just” b/c here it could be interpreted as “instead”)

    I count 7 in stanza’s 2-4 (which many people think are the meat of the clues) and I don’t see any in stanza’s 1, 5, 6.

    not far, but too far, no place for the meek, no paddle up your creek, just HLnWH, but tarry scant, just take the chest.

    Seven seems like a lot out of just 12 lines. I’m having a hard time figuring if they are simply modifiers (just negating or modifying something else that we have solved), or if they are part and parcel of the definition of that something. i.e. are we to interpret: place, place for the meek, or no place, or no place for the meek as one “unit”?

    I was wondering what other’s do?

    • Emma;

      I will again Jump in – with both feet:

      I already posted on meek – but I ope for the latter – “no place for the meek as one “unit” (Between one and 3 place names)

      not far, but too far, Not = a limiting factor – NOT a great distance

      no place for the meek, = limiting factor – Not a place the meek want to go to or in.

      no paddle up your creek,= limiting factor – one can not use a paddle up this creek because of size of creek, or rapids – one or the other.

      just HLnWH,= limiting factor – limiting factor – Just = only. Nothing but HLnWH

      but tarry scant,= limiting factor – Don’t waste time oggling – GO!!!

      just take the chest.= limiting factor – Don’t do anything else – just take it and go.

      As you can see, I rate all of the above as limiting factors – Don’t go way outside of the defined limits – keep it within defined limits. JMO – JDA

      • Nice JDA. I like your internal consistency. I’m not great with English and Grammar – you would think I’m ESL but, no, it’s just that I’m a math nerd and can never get my nouns, verbs, and those other englishy words straight. So I’ve been struggling with looking at the poem in a logical sense based on FF’s use of language.

        • My wife was an English teacher, and she has taught me a lot. I still get confused with things like participles and gerunds etc. Drives me crazy. I am a spacial kind of guy. Numbers scare the hell out of me. I salute you.

          For me, LOGIC and Imagination ore the two key elements. Can you “Picture” what Forrest is saying? Do you fully understand ALL of the possible definitions that a set of words CAN mean, and then LOGICALLY choose the correct one.

          I am not saying that this is MY choice, but take the line – “Not far, but too far to walk.” Did you know that definitions for far include deadly and dangerous? So, this line COULD be interpreted as saying, “Not deadly, but too dangerous to walk.” – As I said, I am not saying that this is my choice for how to interpret this line, but one should be aware of the fact that this COULD be a choice – among many others – and then LOGICALLY choose which one you think Forrest wanted us to use – Just my two (or is it too or to) cents – or is it sense???

          Happy day Emma – JDA

          • What do you get when a poet, an english teacher, and a logician walk into a bar?

            A group that together might be able to solve FF’s poem. 🙂

            That deadly/dangerous example is great. I think I need to get more organized and write down every idea people throw out for each of the lines to help me iterate through solves faster.

    • Hi Emma: a quote from Forrest that may have direct relevance (with my capitalization for emphasis):

      “It seems LOGICAL to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use LOGIC to determine an important clue to the location of the treasure. Is someone doing that now and I don’t know it? It’s not what they say on the blogs that may be significant, it’s what they whisper. f”

      • Thanks Zap! That’s the angle I “want” all of the poem to fit.

        If zip, then zap, else zop. If not zip, just zup.

        I’m trying to figure every angle I can attack each line from. And
        “No” “PFTM” is very different from “NPFTM”.

        Using JDA’s analogy from our discussion on the NPFTM page:
        “NPFTM” = Bar. (I’ll add) “No” “PTFTM could equal “Church.”

        So you can read it as “from there go to the bar” or “from there don’t go to church.” Which for some people are the same thing. 😉

        • Or just the opposite Emma. If a Bar is NOT the place that the meek should go – then, Do NOT go to the bar – but Go to the church instead 🙂 JDA

          • Hope I didn’t confuse you. MY places ARE Bars in my example – MY bars are NOT actual Bars, but the names of places that have a similar reputation – JDA

          • I like your focus on grammar and logic. There is a grammar trick for one step that I previously missed. Logic helped me see a not so obvious grammatical structure.
            Looking forward to sharing results, one way or another.

          • Emma;

            How else do you think that this bird-brain has figured out what little I have figured out 🙂 JDA

          • Finder,

            Could you share this grammar trick / structure? Or the logic used to see it.

            PS. I love that there are both a seeker and a finder here. You two should duel. Or team up. 🙂

          • JDA –

            In my song Racine Street Blues:

            Deliver me from evil
            And I’m in the wood by five

            Am I at the rail in the church or the tavern, the listener decides, not me.

            Lugnutz

      • Zap –

        Do you think Fenn was referring to you?

        “It seems LOGICAL to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use LOGIC to determine an important clue to the location of the treasure. Is someone doing that now and I don’t know it? It’s not what they say on the blogs that may be significant, it’s what they whisper. f”

        • Lugnutz: nope. Do you think so little of my powers of reasoning that you’d think I thought so? The quote came out in April 2014. I didn’t start the Chase until July 2015.

          • Zap –

            I think that readers of this blog will take from your many postings of this quote that you imply it could be you.

            Thanks for clarifying.

        • Lugnutz,
          I dont think FF was referring to any specific searcher when he made that statement. Its been a while since I read that statement. Did he actually state those two things in that order? The deep thinking searcher and then what they say on the blogs? Because if he did, it seems to support my belief that not far but too far to walk is related to layers of rock being a record (a blog) recording the history of a geographic formation which is very near to HOB and yet the time represented is too far/long ago to walk to. That is the way I read that line. If he in fact said those two things in consecutive order, it seems likely to me that they are talking about the same thing.

          • Flutterby –

            I am not following you 100 percent, but the above is a quote.

            What two things are you referring to?

            Here is the quote again:
            “It seems LOGICAL to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use LOGIC to determine an important clue to the location of the treasure. Is someone doing that now and I don’t know it? It’s not what they say on the blogs that may be significant, it’s what they whisper. f”

          • Lugnutz,
            For whatever reason (wish someone could explain this), I don’t get a reply button below your message saying you aren’t following me 100%. You gave me the full quote again.

            “It seems LOGICAL to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use LOGIC to determine an important clue to the location of the treasure. Is someone doing that now and I don’t know it? It’s not what they say on the blogs that may be significant, it’s what they whisper. f”

            So here is what I was trying to say. I have seen the comment about the deep thinking researcher could use logic to determine an important clue. But, I didn’t realize that statement was given in the same answer from FF about “not what they say on the blogs, it’s what they whisper” So now that I see these two statements in the full quote, it makes sense to me that I have been using both of these statements to consider the same thing about the correct solution. Why mention two sort of unrelated things; using logic, and what is said on the blogs. Those seem to be two disconnected ideas IMO, yet used in the same quote from FF.

            For a long time, I have not thought FF was talking about the online blogs when he refers to the blogs in this statement. It would make no sense. Because (sorry to offend anyone) but a lot of what gets said on the blogs is nonsense anyway. Everyone has ideas but nothing is proven. Even those who are “whispering” by making suggestions without stating really what they think, may or may not be right, so why would FF want us to look at the whisperings on the online blogs? He wouldn’t in my opinion. It would make no sense to suggest we listen to the endless ramblings of everyones ideas that are unproven. So I think he is talking about a different type of blog. I don’t think FF is referring us to the online blogs at all, though I will say I do like Dal’s blog. I think we are being referred to a blog written in the Rocky Mountains. So what is the blog of the Rocky Mountains? I think it was written by Mother Nature herself. It is the history recorded in the geographical features of the Rocky Mountains that whispers to us of days gone by, events that happened long ago and the earth will continue to record its own history going forward in time. It isn’t written clearly. It is whispered in places where what was once DEEP have been pushed up for us to view. Its in the mountains, the plateaus, the unique land formations carved by wind and water, worn away so that we can see the layers of history they contain.

            I don’t think we need to understand the geology to understand the geography. Its the geography that we see today that gives us a whisper of what once was. I have always thought that “Not far but too far to walk” is referring to history recorded in the geography of the RMs. Its may be right in front of us, but we don’t know what we are looking at so that is why searchers walk right past it. They don’t understand that the clue is right there. I still think HOB is related both to the sun and to a natural fen. But, what I didn’t understand until recently, and think I understand now is that the fen we are looking for is not todays fen. It is a fen from long ago.

            FF has said, “there is no other way to “my knowledge”” I have never thought that statement was about getting to the treasure only one way (although it might mean that also). I think it is more about learning how to view the geography of the RMs and knowing (having FFs knowledge) what you are looking at. What is that about returning to the place you started and knowing it for the first time? So we are standing somewhere in the RMs and we see a mountain, some trees, water, etc. Is that all there is to see? Or is there something whispered in the scene we are viewing? Is it whispering of a mountain forced upward by techtonic activity? Or a geyser that was formed by an unseen force below the surface. Do we really know what we are looking at? I suggest the answer is NO. But, if we could gain FFs knowledge, then we might see something else when we are standing there.

            FF is a collector of Native American artifacts. How does he find them? There isn’t a map for that! He has to know what kinds of places they are likely to be found. He has to see something whispered in the scenery that the rest of us pass by because we see only mountains, valleys, streams, etc. FF looks DEEPER. And that IMO is why a DEEP THINKING searcher could use LOGIC to determine an answer to an important clue in the poem. If we have the right knowledge, we can look deeper and see what nature’s BLOGS WHISPER.

            WHAT IF, the poem doesn’t give us exact coordinates like some folks believe, or if it doesn’t name a place specifically? What if its teaching us how to look at the RMs and see the whisper of days gone by?

    • Emma,
      IMO, the clues represent multiples of itself. No place for the meek is used all around the area for different things. When I get to that line, no place for the meek, when I get to that part if I look behind me, that’s definitely no place for the meek. If I look to my right, another no place for the meek, ect. The clues have multiple examples that are present in the area. You will know when you’ve found that clue area.
      -B

  34. It seems that most folks here are more concerned about everything after the first clue. I feel that the main focus should be more concentrated on wwwh. If you can nail down (nothing to do with metal nails) the first clue then one would have a better chance with the remaining clues. Nail down to me is to be certain and confident of ones wwwh.

    Not the cart before the horse, its the other way around, horse then cart.

    Just Say’n

    • CharlieM;

      Maybe most folks are concerned about what comes after wwwh, ibecause they feel that they have gotten past wwwh, and are working on later clues – I know (or at least feel) that I have gotten past wwwh. JMO – JDA

        • Honestly? I first heard of the chase on December 23 2015.
          I got TToTC on December 31, 2015 – I made my first BotG on February 9, 2016 to the area that I have searched since that time – So, I had figured out my wwwh sometime between January1, 2016 and February 9, 2015 As I recall. I settled on my wwwh early in January 2016. – Still searchin’ the same general area – Honestly feel I am getting closer and closer. I believe that I have been within 50′ of Indulgence at least 15 times. but did not know it until just a few days ago. Waiting for a warm day, and back I go for search trip #26.
          MAYBE trip #26 will be the one – Hopin’ anyway – JDA

          • JDA, I just returned today from my very first BotG. It was both exhilarating and disheartening, to say the least! No, I did not find the chest but boy did we ever try! I thought I would have had the upper hand because my solve happened to be in a place where I used to live and I was VERY familiar with the area. I foolishly thought I would find the dang thing on the morning of day one. We followed the eight clues to the absolute letter and you could have literally followed our progress overhead ticking off clues on the map as we went. So there we were, at waters high looking for what my idea was for the blaze, then looking for any blaze, then just plain looking and it hit me just how small my boots were and just how large of an area the ground really is. It was a fabulous trip with my girls and as I’ve said, any time you get to spend with your adult children is just a blessing in itself but ugh, SO FRUSTRATING!! I mean between the three of us, I don’t think there was a tree that wasn’t examined, a rock face that wasn’t scrutinized, bushes, lumps, creeks, tree stumps, rock crevices…literally every piece of those woods were gone into bravely and yet, nothing. The thing that kills me the most, though, is that even after all of that….I still think my clues 1-8 are correct! I must be delusional!! In my solve, and taking Fenn at his word that following the clues will lead you right to Indulgence, there is no more of the general area to be searched. What do you do when you’ve hit what seems to be a dead end but yet are still sure you’re right? Search again? Start over looking for a new location? Email Fenn with really pointed questions that he likely won’t answer? How do you tell between being too emotionally invested in your solve and being right? ARGH!!!!!! Zaph is so right when he says that each state has searchers that think they’re right and that obviously means that 99% of them are wrong! My WWWH IS a standalone clue. So is my canyon. The too far to walk (which isn’t a clue as much as it is a hint, which likely makes no sense to anyone but my brain). home of Brown (yes, even the weird capitalization!). Meek? Check. End is nigh? Check. No paddle, check. Heavy loads and water high, check and check! All in one very distinct, followable path! Nothing that Fenn has said (or refused to answer outright) has gone against any part of my solve. That’s got to be just too many coincidences, right?! I’m going again. Yup, once more!

            On a somewhat related side-note, has Fenn ever mentioned anything about the area surrounding the chest changing over the last eight years since he hid it? I looked and looked but didn’t see anything mentioned. Just curious…

          • Hi Shani;

            My heart goes out to you. I have experienced you sense of “But is HAS to be there – everything fits.” – more than once. Sorry, I have no advice. Each time I return home empty handed, I ask myself – “What did you learn?” Each time, so far, I have had an answer, so I learn from my mistake(s) and try again. If the answer is ever – “I didn’t learn anything.” That will be when I give up, or give up on my area.

            To answer your question – Here is the only quote that came to mind: “by Jenny Kile · October 27, 2014
            Mr Fenn, in relation to the final resting place of the chest, which of the 4 natural elements (Earth, Wind, Water, Fire) would mostly compromise it resting? ~ James

            .
            I know what the question is. I don’t think earth can hurt it, under the right conditions wind might affect it, it’s probably already wet, and look at what fire did to the twin towers. Nature makes her own rules, James, so I try to not be absolute when talking about her.”f

            Hope that this helps.

            One question – How did you decide on your wwwh? Was it because you were familiar with the area, or did something in the poem lead you there? If your husband, or some other person read the poem, would they come to the same conclusions you have come to, or have you come to your conclusions because of your past familiarity with the area?

            I am not asking you to, but if you were to explain to me why you picked your wwwh – would I find it logical?

            I constantly ask myself – Is this logical? Could a 79 or 80 year old man go here, or do this? If the answer is no – Back to the poem, the books and the ATF’s and GE.

            My team always want’s to know “Why have you come to this conclusion.”

            Your grandmother may not go with you, but you can ask yourself IF she COULD go there, and not get hurt or have a heart attack.

            Just a few things to ponder – GOOD LUCK – JDA

          • Shani you said: “All in one very distinct, followable path!”
            Nice BOTG trip.
            My advice is to get off the path 500′ or so.
            Have fun and watch the weather.

          • JDA, is your “area to search carefully” getting smaller
            with each search trip? If not, maybe you should show
            your solve to some trusted others, for feedback. Or at
            least part(s) of your solve. IMO.

          • Thanks, Jake! I thought it was a good trip. I would have preferred coming home with the chest but hey, it was a nice couple of days in the woods!

            JDA – I’ll tell you my WWWH and you can be the judge as to whether or not you think it’s logical. To me, it’s the only logical solution to that clue. Get my email from Dal or send me yours and I’ll shoot it your way. (I don’t know any other way other than email to discuss away from here…and I’m not sure I’m ready to post for all to see!)

            Also, on the subject of email… What is Forrest’s official email these days? I found one that they posted on Reddit but I don’t know that I trust those folks! haha I think I am going to try to email him and ask my very pointed question (although if he answers by saying that I was within inches of the chest, I will surely lose my mind!). Thanks all!

          • Shani – email me at SculptorJDA at aol dot com.

            I got in trouble for posting Forrest’s em,ail once – I won’t make that mistake again – JDA

          • Just read your piece on mortality themes in the poem in the archives. Very lucid. I think you understand this aspect of the Chase better than most-

          • Shani B –

            Forrest used to have rule or two about who he responds to by email.

            There was a rule that said he we respond to someone the first time they write.

            Generally he doesn’t comment on clues. If you write him to say where home of Brown is he may not answer. Or he may answer with something like: Could be if it’s in the Rockies north of Sante Fe.

            He has mentioned a few times he reads all the short emails.

            When things get fun is when you send him a solve and he sends it to Dal to post here.

            Forrest says s a really fun person. He likes things that stir his imagination.

            Lugnutz advice column

    • WWWH is the Achilles heel of the Chase. Wise searchers diligently solve it first, per Forrest’s instructions, and then put it behind them as they focus on subsequent clues. What usually follows is a lot of working and reworking of the later clues, sometimes entailing many BOTG trips. The more time, effort and expense that goes into exploring these downstream (not necessarily literally!) options, the more emotionally invested a searcher becomes with his/her “general solve.”

      The problem is that to this day, each of the four states has searchers each convinced they’re right, and yet there is nothing close to a majority that share the same WWWH. Thus, over 99% of searchers have the wrong starting location. The implication is that each BOTG searcher confidently believes they are in the < 1% that has the correct WWWH. This is why I call it an Achilles heel: it is a huge vulnerability.

      Often it seems that the main reason searchers won't reconsider their WWWHs is that too many things "fit" for the later clues for it to be "coincidence." In other words, the main support for their WWWH is actually because of those subsequent clues, and not that the WWWH stands on its own merits.

      Forrest tells us we have to nail down WWWH, and he does so without explicitly mentioning any of the other clues. Perhaps this is because it *is* solvable as a standalone clue. And if *that's* true (admitedly a big IF), then it's a worthwhile exercise to revisit one's WWWH and attempt to argue that it is clearly better than all the other thousands in the Rockies, and for reasons that have nothing to do with clues 2-9.

      • Well put. I’m sure there are numerous searchers out there that spend years on clues 2-9, and have the wrong WWWH. It’s hard to know for sure I suppose.

    • Do we need to solve for wwwh is to find the chest?
      No.
      Do we need to solve for hoB to find the chest?
      No.
      Do we need to solve for the blaze to find the chest?
      No.
      In your quest to keep it simple and straight forward, it looks like you are complicating things by trying to solve for these very things.
      Does solving the poem and putting an “X” on a map constitute the “X” being wwwh?
      no.
      Are there different definitions to the word ‘nail”?
      Yes.
      There you go, a yes answer.
      I’m not Amish, so I don’t know between a horse or a cart which one first, but the only way to “nail” down the first clue as you say is to find the chest. F is well aware that me could not possibly “nail” down the first clue unless we have the chest, so, for him to say it must have a different meaning besides certain and confident, IMO.

      • poisonivey;

        At the beginning of the poem, Forrest said the following: “: “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.” f

        How can one follow these nine clues precisely if you do not solve them?

        Forrest also said: ““Stop arm chairing that thing to death and get out in the trees where the box is, but before you go, look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions.” f

        How can you follow the directions if you do not solve the individual clues?

        Only one more – among many – “Only the nine clues, in consecutive order, in the Poem, when understood and followed, leads a person precisely to the chest. The chest is a 10” x 10” x 5” antique bronze Romanesque lock box, and weighs about 42 lbs. The treasure consists of gold, valuable gems, ancient artifacts, and at least one surprise”.

        “Only the nine clues, in consecutive order, in the Poem, when understood and followed, leads a person precisely to the chest.”

        All of the above are words from the man that wrote the poem, and put the Chase into motion. How can you ignore these words, and select only one statement and ignore all of these – and others like them? Boggles my min d charlie – JMO – JDA

        • JDA, how do you know in that statement he is talking clues? He wrote a poem with 9 clues that if followed precisely…. Like follow the “poem” precisely?
          Come on JDA, by now you should know that I will back up whatever off the reservation things I say. Here’s some more words by the “man himself”.
          Forrest, What’s the minimum number of clues that we need to solve to find the treasure, assuming that we follow the clues in order? `Serge Teteblanche
          Just one Serge, the last one.f
          Look at what I posted, I said ‘solve”.
          Of course the winning path will yield you following all the clues. How can it not? But if the solve for the poem puts an “X” on a map, how is that telling you to solve clues? What clues?
          The only thing that matters is not wwwh, not the blaze, not hoB, it is the last clue. Now if you need all the other clues to solve for the last, that’s different, wrong, IMO, but a different scenario.
          And, I do not ignore his words, I go by them, how can you misinterpret his words?
          JDA, time to start looking at the many different ways his words can be read, take note, understand another position in their translation, and then make up your mind.
          I can read, I see what you are saying, I understand, but you don’t understand the flip side to it. That is where your mind gets boggled.
          Look at the ATF’s you used. I do not disagree with any of them. Of course you follow all the clues, they’re on your path, but do you need them? The ATF I posted says you don’t. So when another ATF, says that not all the clues can be solved, like wwwh, the blaze, etc…it comes to reason that all the clues are not needed. HIS words. And that the poem solve is not solving all the clues, it is solving the poem. If you follow the POEM precisely, you will of course follow the clues according to f, to the chest. The problem is so many are going by his words sometimes, then ignoring other words because they don’t fit.
          Do you solve all the clues? does your solve need to have the blaze? Is hoB a must?
          If so, then you must be ignoring his words when he said that those thing cannot be solved because the info is not our there. If you think it is, it didn’t come from the man who wrote the poem. Do you believe that he took two trips in one afternoon? Then you ignore that he said you must follow all the clues, no other way, because he won’t go down a canyon, back up, then down again. Or do you believe he took two trips and was done in one of those trips in the afternoon?
          I’m not knocking yours or any bodies solve. If you feel you’ve solved the unsolvable clues, then good for you. I don’t question that out of some crazy luck that it didn’t happen, but do you understand it?
          Wwwh is “not” a stand alone clue. Hearing most talk, it’s a bridge to the other clue solves. It cannot be solved stand alone, or good luck with line 5 and only line 5. Plus, like I said, the info is not in the book to solve for it, f’s words. Unless you like twisting his words to fit a solve, then, I’m sure, there could be millions of correct solves. Again JDA, look at the ATF’s you posted, have I ever gone against those? Look at mine and what I posted. Does yours answer that? Stirring the pot JDA, stirring the pot.

          • Poison (charlie) We will never agree on our understanding of Forrest’s words, and that is OK.

            Have I been able to solve for wwwh – I believe yes.
            Have I been able to solve for canyon down – ditto
            etc. I BELIEVE I have been able to solve – yes solve, not guess, all nine clues, and that Indulgence is ALMOST within my grasp.

            Has it been easy? Heck no. Have I made mistakes – only about a million – well, maybe not quite that many. Has my logic been wrong – not often. Have I misinterpreted things in the poem – you betcha. Have I learned from those mistakes – I hope so.

            As always charlie, I wish you the best. Your approach and mine are very much different.

            It appears that you look at a building – a completed object and say – hummmm I wonder how it was built, and you start taking it apart.

            I read a set of blueprints, hire the right people, and brick by brick, one piece of lumber or timber at a time build a building from the foundation up.

            In the end, I will have a new completed building, you will have a pile of rubble.

            Probably a poor analogy, but that is how I see our different approaches. Happy hunting guy – JDA

          • JDA, I thought you posted before something like one thing missing in your solve is that you haven’t found anything pointing you to your wwwh.

          • FD – Nope must be someone else. I have said for a long long time that the words “In the wood” have a very obscure definition that points you to a geographic location in Wyoming. Once there, finding a logical wwwh is pretty easy. JDA

          • JDA, it seems to me that your “wwwh” location may be based upon your “in the wood” location. Am I misunderstanding your meaning (or implication) about this?

          • Tighterfocus;

            If I say, “Go to the corner, and from there, you will see the McDonalds.” – In the same way – “In the wood” takes you to a location that, from there, you can locate wwwh. Hope that is clear.

            “In the wood” does not take you directly to wwwh, but it takes you to the “Corner”, and from there, you can pretty easily locate (McDonalds) wwwh.
            JDA

          • I was always curious about “directions” like JDA described, how in the world people are using those to get “within several steps” of a 10×10 chest? it seems there just are not enough words past the corner with the mcdonalds on it.

            (if not using the method of lines cross)

          • Writis;

            My example was how I use “In the wood” to take me to wwwh. NOT how to get to Indulgence. Once at the correct wwwh one looks for a canyon – YES, follow the directions. Take this canyon DOWN.
            What is the next direction? Not far, but too far to walk. Figure out what this direction is saying, and apply the answer.

            etc. etc. etc. EVERY line is a direction of one kind or another. Figure out the directions – one-at-a-time! JMO – JDA

        • PoisonCharlie ~’The only thing that matters is not wwwh, not the blaze, not hoB, it is the last clue.’

          “Needing” the last clue is obvious. The question is, can it be found without the other clues and/or the very first clue?
          These Q&A’s need more thought before presenting them. The question was about; “minimum number” of clues that we need to solve to find the treasure, and nothing about ‘getting to’ that clue.

          You can not dismiss fenn’s warning after warning to figure out WWH or stay home… If you don’t have that clue you have nothing… If you don’t have the first clue, all you’ll have is a nice vacation… Looking for later clues is a folly… finding the blaze would be a miracle [without the first clue].

          OK, this is a test for your national Seeker organization, it’s only a test; The last clue is a stick… go fetch and I’ll let ya know if its the correct one.
          Good luck……..

          • Seeker, I solved for your stick. The path to get to the stick had 8 clues, that I noticed but really didn’t need. I followed all those clues because they were on the path I took. When I got to the spot I was trying to get to, viola, the stick was there. I just knew the path to take, it allowed me to find the starting spot, so I went there and started on my path. A couple things you mentioned were on this path. (the clues), but what I was concerned with was getting to the spot.
            I never said wwwh could not be figured out, learned. known, I said it couldn’t be solved on it’s own. If I have the end spot, then when I see where to begin, the path, that is wwwh. Nothing solved but deciphered and/or learned. I needed to “find out”.
            No body can be certain of the first clue, until the end spot, until they have the chest. So is everyone to stay home? No, everyone is expected to draw an “X” on a map and trek a path. Wwwh is not where a person starts at home, or the plane ride, (because I know someone will say something foolish along those lines), it is where you start your path to the chest. Your question:
            The question is, can it be found without the other clues and/or the very first clue?
            That is very so right. Now add that some clues cannot be solved, some need BotG. some need to be learned/found. You know all the ATF’s.
            I have never said to look for later clues first. I said to solve the poem. Two things very much different. Solving the poem is not solving clues, it is solving the poem. I’m sure some clues will be solved, but in solving the poem, that’s where we get the “X”.
            Could I find the end spot before I find wwwh? yes
            could I find the 4th clue before I find wwwh? most likely not.
            Could I learn where wwh is by finding the spot the chest is at?
            Yup.
            When I’m out following the path, will I come to the 3rd clue before the 2nd?
            nope.
            Will I follow all the clues?
            Of course.
            If I could jump from a plane and parachute down, would I land at wwwh, or the final spot?
            Final spot. The other places make no difference. If I know where the chest is, why worry about wwwh is? I would know if I had the correct wwh if I found the chest.
            JDA, I work in a machine shop, I read blueprints just fine. Our styles are different, I can respect that, I don’t want it to sound like I’m discrediting your solve, on the contrary, I see it and it helps. And my ‘building” stands erect and straight. No rubble. In the end, you probably would have hired people that have the machines to build your building, so it is they that have the solve, all you have is something built by someone else. :).
            I’ve built a lot of buildings since February 2011, and you’re right, some are rubble. But what stands now, lol, I’ll leave it at that. You know I always wish you the best. I will admit, one thing you have over me, you look like a prospector. Cannot deny that you’ve got the look for the chase. And I mean that in a respectful way. And who is “guy”?

          • First of all Seeker I would like to commend you for a one question comment and I like the PoisonCharlie addressing.

            We have had this conversation before here about word being words. Some like the words in the poem to be “a word that is key” others like a word or words in the books and others just make up words.

            It appears to me the word that is key is in the poem and I don’t think it helps with the final clue just for the shortcut statement.

            I also don’t think the word that is key is more than 1 word anywhere.

            Simple, “a word that is key” .
            Not “words that are key”

            Sure,
            Most words need multiple words for it’s description.
            But it gets back to the chicken egg thing and when and where words were used and relevant and I refuse to overcomplicate the process considering F’s many comments about the chicken or was that a rooster?

          • Ken, I explained to Jeremy in that archived thread what I meant by plural vs singular and how that pertains to f’s phrase of “a word that is key”.

            I even gave an example that Jeremy understood even though I get that the explanation of singular versus plural is difficult to grasp. There may be a better way to explain it but if I remember correctly f might have used the singular and plural descriptions to explain his “a word that is key” phrase.

            The example I gave was if you put one of your fingers on “a” key of a piano you’d be touching only one key but you had the choice to touch any of the 88 keys on the piano(that’s where the plural comes from- 88 possibilities).

            If, instead, someone tells you to touch the key that they are pointing at, then there’s only one key (singular) that will fit the bill under the conditions giving even though there are 88 keys on the piano still.

            And that translates to the poem like Jeremy started to understand. There are many “a word that are key” in the poem.

            I still don’t understand your worries about no shortcuts can be taken in the poem and how that correlates with what we are talking about. F has said the poem takes a key.
            Nobody talking about shortcuts.

          • Thanks Zap, I should have been more clear. The question was in reference to the word(s) that your key word referenced in the poem.

          • Hi Aaron: “The question was in reference to the word(s) that your key word referenced in the poem.”

            I’m not sure I understand the question. My keyword doesn’t reference words in the poem; it is used to pin down the starting point. I guess you could say it’s used in conjunction with the *answer* to line 5 of the poem.

          • I see Zap. I assumed that when you said “my word is in every stanza, yet it’s not a poem word” that it was referring to a word in every stanza.

            My mistake.

          • Hi Aaron — Ah! Now I see the disconnect. You were thinking something along the lines of synonyms — that my keyword had a synonym in every stanza. If it helps, there is no synonym for my keyword.

          • Aaron –

            I think Zap’s keyword and line 5 work together something like this. This is not real, it’ for fun!

            Keyword – Trumpet
            WWWH – Swan

            Starting point is Trumpet Swan Montana!

        • JDA,
          You have preached many times that “In the wood” got you to the correct general area or region in the correct state (Wyoming).

          You have also stated in the past these words in the poem are the words that are key.

          How can you put so much weight in those 3 words to start your quest even though it’s not WWWH and there are 3 words and not 1 word “a word that is key”?

          The only reason I can think you have done this is that there is one word (region , area) outside the poem that is the obscure definition of those 3 or 2 words as you stated also.

          If this is the case, then we might be looking for many words or lines in the poem that point to one word that is a geographical place.

          My problem is that I can find many geographical places in all states when using multiple words, lines or phrases in the poem.

          I like to stick with “a word”.

          • Jake;

            There is one “Word that is key” and it is NOT related to “in the wood” – that leads me to wwwh. Two completely different things. Apples and oranges – NOT the same thing.

            My “Word that is key” has changed about four times during my 33 months – as my understanding of the “Big Picture” has changed.
            … and I’ll drink to that “Word that is key” – It will take me to the prize -or at least I believe it will. – JDA

          • Jake;
            When you said: “You have also stated in the past these words in the poem are the words that are key.” you mis-spoke. I have never said “these words in the poem are the words that are key.” My single “Word that is key” MAY/or may not be in the poem.

            In the past I have said that it was NOT in the poem – but will now leave that question unanswered. – JDA

          • JDA,
            I’m just going by what you have said in the past and just wanted to confirm your new thoughts seeing you are tight.

            The “Big picture” seems to be the same area which has not changed in 33 months. It may be the right area but the same results don’t mean it’s the wrong area, maybe.

            “a word that is key” probably will not take you to the prize seeing there are no shortcuts.

            “a word that is key” probably has something to do with the 1st clue seeing there are no shortcuts.
            Had to repeat that.

          • Jake not expecting any shortcuts.

            “The Big Picture” is not just related to a geographic area, but more about what may have happened within that geographic area over time – and the people who were in that area and how that area has affected their lives through time…. Or something like that.

            Yeah – in a way, the word that is key does have something to do with the first clue – and several others. Just sayin’ JDA

          • I’m curious, Jake…
            Why can a few words result in a single word, that is key to the solve?
            Does this magical word even need to be presented prior to the clues, in the poem?
            If we want to get technical, could the word be from something told of in the book… I mean, if hints help with the clues, a word of importance [regardless if a single word or from a phrasing of words that produces a single word idea ] could be from the book, right-?- if the ‘goal’ of the word is to ‘help’ with the clues.

            Heck, some like ‘treasures’ to be the [A] word that is key and think that is the state of ‘Montana’ A-nother word… LOL could the word be the ‘idea’ of another of another word?

            ~The idea; that fenn went “in there” and the poem states “If ‘you’ are brave and ‘in the wood'” …doesn’t “you” [ a searcher ] mean we should be “In” some place-?- referencing something that “wood” means? And could also be key to, maybe the location?
            That’s about as simple a KiSS as ya can get…

          • Your so different Seeker,
            I always look for the “LOL” about 3/4 of the way down your comments and it’s about 90% of the comments.

            Then I read what I can understand to a certain point and when I see many more questions than are answered I usually step aside and let others think they know what you are saying and most don’t get you although some think they do.

            I have to step aside again cause my brain can’t deal with all the ???

            I get you, where you question everything that’s said but you need to take one step at a time and don’t overload the circuits over and over again.

          • Ok Jake,

            Short and to the point… why can’t a few words represent a single word, as the word that is key?

          • There’s a couple of things going on here that I’ll try to explain my take on.

            There’s a word that is key discussion and JDA’s important 3 word phrase (in the wood) that he uses in an important way to narrow down to his geographical area near his wwwh.

            About the a word that is key discussion. I’ve read Cynthia’s comment about how she interacted with f about that topic after he publicly brought up a word that is key.

            From what I remember, Cynthia related that f said “a” is plural and “the” is singular. This means a word that is key would be one word. What that doesn’t mean is a word that is key can’t be in multiple lines in the poem. I believe Cynthia wrote that f said many lines in his poem have a word that is key. I can’t remember if Cynthia wrote this in her book or on her blog.

            Keeping that in mind, I would shy away from a 3 word phrase in one line as being what my solve hinges on to narrow down to the correct geographical area where I’d find wwwh.

            IMO, the riddle f concocted to achieve finding the correct wwwh uses four lines of the poem. Uses them like ingredients in a recipe. They build off each other, one after another.

          • Fun ~’ I believe Cynthia wrote that f said many lines in his poem have a word that is key. I can’t remember if Cynthia wrote this in her book or on her blog.’

            This is a bit interesting. I don’t jump around from blog to blog, so this is a different take/idea to it all.
            Not unlike Begin it where warm waters halt… could references a single place and what is at that place, line of thinking, The entire line seems to be referencing one word… a location/place. So the idea is, A word or words or a line or lines can produce “A” word – “the” word that is key just for the first clue, somewhere within the poem. This also can be possible [reading your post about the conversation[s] between Cynthia and fenn] that other stanzas [ 1 5 6 ] could hold key… um err information to assist with stanzas 2 3 4… using the same idea of “A” word that is key to produce “the” words that is key for each 9 clue reference we are attempting to figure out.

            Basically saying; every word in the poem is deliberate and be risky to discount any word [in the poem], all the information to find the treasure is in the poem, get back in the box etc etc.
            But now I’ll throw a monkey wrench into this…lol. Is there a single word that helps span the entire poem? or was fenn’s first comment about folks being in tight focus of a word that is key only in reference to WWH that gets us all started off?

            Glad ya posted.. I’m gonna need to check this out and think some more… Ha! we might looking for ‘9’ key words… one for each clue reference… with a ‘tighter focus’ on the word that helps with the first clue… In any hoot, I see a can being popped open and more comments will be following your post. lol

          • FD –

            That is a very good concise post. I like your thinking.
            four consecutive lines in the poem that work together.

            And not the four they think you mean.

          • I’ll try to find Cynthia’s comment. If not on the web then her book tonight.

          • One place I found where Cynthia did talk about a word that is key is in an email response to me when I asked her about it.

            I will paste the pertinent parts below for knowledge purposes. My question to her first- 10/26/17

            I had one question. I remember you posted on one of the blogs about you asking Forrest about the word that is key after his announcement of such. I kinda remember his answer to you was something like every line in the poem has a word that is key. Would my recollection be correct?

            2 replies from Cynthia-

            Your memory is correct. Forrest told me this face-to-face. I posted it [elsewhere] awhile back, and another reader posted a comment confirming he had said or written to her in an email the same thing. I just checked my “time line” which is my document with dates and ff quotes. It was 3/18/2014 during a visit at his home. On my document I have written ““Every line has a key word (or word that is key)”.
            Apparently I couldn’t remember his exact verbiage so wrote both down. Don’t know if this helps or makes it worse. I do know it meant to me at the time, and still does, you can’t exclude any of the lines in the entire poem, or any of the words. And remember what FF told Isaac Cole in the podcast 5/08/2017. At the 30:40 mark, FF said “You can’t ignore any of the nouns in that poem.” I believe his statement in that podcast confirms it.

            The second email response from Cynthia-

            I just looked at my notes again and he started his statement with “ALMOST EVERY LINE HAS…”

            ^end^

            One thing I forgot to mention in my main post above. When I mentioned that I feel there might be four lines in the poem with specific ingredients in them, I meant to add I treat those as words that are key, imo.

          • why doesn’t everyone just give there word? It’s not going to be a revelation, so what is so secret. To think that people can’t give their wwwh, or blaze, or whatever seems to go against what this blog is for. Fine, stay secretive, but don’t come on here and dis anybody that has the guts to share.
            The chase is going to take us into a forest, up a mountain, and out in the boonies. 100′ might as well be miles. If you think you will give to much away, you haven’t been out. To see the vastness is like trying to find aliens in space.
            So post your words, help each other out, or stay secretive, doesn’t matter to me. Just be prepared to be critiqued.
            It just seems lately like the same ol’ arguments. We keep posting the same ol’ ATF’s, we argue about keeping it simple, (ridiculous), etc…etc…etc… Maybe as new searchers come to the site we revisit old topics, could be, but we’re not getting anywhere.
            It is “one” word that has to do with key, it is “one” blaze, we all know “simple” English, it is not in simple English, (as taken for face value), whether you think so or not, some clues cannot be solved, f’s words, that pretty much takes care of the last couple months.
            In disagreeing, we will find solutions.

            The word that is key is the word that helps out your solve. It is the solve that is right or wrong. With that goes this key. Is it key in the sense of opening something up, or is it key in the aspect of being important? In both situations, only one thing is clear, it must be in the poem. Period. Something so important would need to be there for the long ago searchers, and all we needed was the poem. Before his comment. So you have 166 words to choose from. To knock it down further, IMO, it would be a word that is in the ATF also. So match up the words and pick out the words that are also in the poem. Wood, blaze, creek, old, cold, etc… is not what his ATF is talking about.

            I like what Fun posted. It makes sense, this word could come from how a line is solved. That’s different, that could mean that the word is outside the poem, but from the poem. We would then be in the camp of seeing each line as a puzzle to solve. This poem is the only form of writing that I have researched that contains 24 lines that can all be broken down to reveal something else, by following instruction words, so that may be the architecture of the poem. It wouldn’t hurt, solve each line by following instructions, but I’m biased towards that, because that is what I did. Again, solve the poem, right?

          • FD;

            I do not see anything new or earth shattering in Cynthia’s comments – She says: “I do know it meant to me at the time, and still does, you can’t exclude any of the lines in the entire poem, or any of the words.”

            So, what might these word(s) be for every line?

            We all probably can agree on most.

            1) alone in there
            2) treasures bold
            3) keep secret where
            4) riches new and old

            5) where warm waters halt
            6) in – canyon down
            7) too far to walk
            8) put in – home of Brown

            9) no place for meek
            10) end – drawing nigh
            11) no paddle – creek
            12) heavy loads – water high

            13) wise – blaze
            14) look down
            15) tarry scant – marvel gaze
            16) take chest

            17) why go
            18) leave – trove
            19) answers
            20) tired – weak

            21) hear – listen
            22) effort – cold
            23) brave – in the wood
            24) title – gold

            Some may differ slightly, but I would guess that most would pick these words as the “Key words” in each line. Nothing new or exciting. If one does not focus on these words, IMO, you are missing the boat – JMO – JDA

          • Poison;

            You keep saying, “whether you think so or not, some clues cannot be solved, f’s words.” Sorry I am so dense, but I have never read these words. Please help me by posting (again if I missed it) these words. and how you interpret whatever these words are. Thanks – Sorry if you have posted them, and explained them before, and I have overlooked them – Thanks – JDA

          • I disagree JDA, :). Just because.
            Really though, just line 17 alone, the “I” seems to be the focus. But you said that “Some may differ slightly,”, so I won’t go against what you are saying. But, the thing may be getting a word from solving the entire line. All the words being important to find a word in the line. You could then have 24 words that may be saying something. I can see that as a solve because it is an attempt at solving the poem. As for me, some of the lines do produce a word, but mostly, solving the lines gives instructions. That’s not to say it is correct, but is different.

          • It’s his ATF about having the answers in the book for the blaze, wwwh, or hoB. I have the ATF at work, I’m sure Zap, or Seeker could help me out here. If not, I will post when I get to work.

          • Thanks Poison – Again, I am unfamiliar with which ATF you are talking about, so await your post with explanation – Thanks – JDA

          • JDA…poisen is talking about the featured Q 2015.
            Just Tarryscant …(do you also). First one from BW

          • Thanks Ken;
            So, here it is: “by Jenny Kile · November 12, 2015

            Thrill of the Chase by Forrest FennMr. Fenn,

            You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze hinted at in the book.

            My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW

            No I don’t madam, sorry. f
            * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * * *
            Poison – All I see is a simple question – “IN THE BOOK” … do you TELL which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” Forrest’s answer is “NO”

            Forrest is NOT saying that these are not solvable, all he is saying is that IN THE BOOK he does NOT TELL or reveal the answers to any or all of those listed – Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze

            I don’t see how you can interpret these lines as Forrest is saying that these 4 things are not solvable – So, we again disagree, but that is OK.

            Again, best of luck Charlie (Poison) – JDA

          • Man this thread is very long! My thoughts on the *a word that is key*… and then Cynthia’s revelation shared by Fenn with her… kind of falls into a category of semi- useless info. While it seems to be a revelation on both counts… one has to reflect on exactly how helpful these comments have been. The treasure has not been found and the info revealed on how this info was indeed pertinent to solving.

          • JDA, the point of my post wasn’t that it’s something new, earth shattering or exciting.

            That being said, I don’t think many searchers have seen what I provided between a searcher that is close to f and f and them having a detailed discussion about a word that is key before. I haven’t seen what came out of their discussion been brought up here by anyone else before.

            Looks like others have found some new ideas and avenues to go down about the topic. So, I think that will do the trick!

          • Fundy….Loco dug up the comments from another blog between you and Cynthia over a year ago. It garnered only moderate conversation. Colokid cited it again (Key word Six) and talked about surprise more comments had not happened even though it was 3rd hand info. Seeker touched on it as well. Like I said just upthread… it seems rather dubious at best even though it appears to be a sort of revelation given the lack of progress. I believe that anyone who thinks there is a magical ATF or some other shortcut to solving the *ENTIRE* poem…is wasting their time. I will add…I believe Cynthia is very invested in the Chase…and her willingness to share her time with Forrest is above reproach.

          • Ken, many forget key details of the Chase so it’s never a bad thing to bring some up and see if it helps anyone.

            One of the ones you mentioned that knew about this previously, Seeker, has stated that he appreciated it being brought up now. So, I see no problem with it. Plenty of new searchers might not have seen it before.

            Also, I don’t think there is any correlation between this information I posted being good to share and how it hasn’t helped find the tc. You are basically saying all of the posts on this blog are dubious.

            I don’t seeing it being a negative that this information came from a conversation between Cynthia and f. Other searchers know of Cynthia’s closeness to f. I think it lends to the authenticity to the words that f gave to her.

            Unlike what JDA brought up, I don’t think it’s important to take the same thing about f’s words as he quoted Cynthia did.

            To me, getting the most minute detail of the “a word that is key” is important. That has nothing to do with trying to shortcut the poem.

          • Fund;

            If you think that I disparaged or disrespected you or your post – in any way – I apologize. I just did not see anything new – that is all. You are right, ANY information that is put out there that new searchers may not have seen is helpful. We then can judge for ourselves how important it is or is not. JDA

          • No problem, JDA. I just think many searchers confuse “a word this is key” (plural) and the word that is key (singular).

            On top of that, we see many searchers say they have just one word that is key, I believe like yourself.

          • Rehashing everything Chase related is fine…and may spark the *right thinking* at some point. Fenn has said that going back to the poem is how it will be solved (paraphrasing). He has said this consistently since the beginning… so that is one *concrete* piece of advice/comment that can be taken as fact. It is not a real big stretch to come to the conclusion that EVERYTHING in the poem is on the table as potentially being pertinent given the mountainous pile of comments from Fenn alluding to this. Is one more going to seal the deal? To wit… I think Seeker forgets what he posts as soon as he hits the post button… I know I do.

          • Fund:

            Forrest said: “It is interesting to know that a great number of people are out there searching. Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with A WORD THAT IS KEY The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated.” f

            Capitalization mine for emphasis.

            I also believe that there are MANY keywords that help with solving the riddles of the poem. I listed those that I thought most important in each line – you and others may disagree on some of them, and that is OK.

            For me, “Words that are key”, and “A” “Word that is key” are two entirely different things. CAN a “Key word” be the “Word that is key”? Sure – why not. I will even go so far as to say that MY “Word that is key” IS listed among the “Key words” that I posted above – 🙂 JDA

            I believe that there is one “Word that is key

          • ‘A word that is key’ can be the same as keywords in a number of lines if ‘A word that is key’ shows up in multiple lines.

          • The Q&A from BW doesn’t say NO some or certain clues are not told of in the book, answers the part… “in a more subtle way”

            Again these questions presented are simply being answered as they are… not as we think they imply.

          • JDA, the poem is in the book, and all we need is the poem, right. If that is the case, (which it is), then the poem or the book do not answer those questions. Since we only need the poem, everything needs to be there. Since the correct answer for those things is not there, it is the one thing that searchers have not considered. That all the clues can be solved. The answer to the clues must be there, (for the clue solvers), and f says they are not. So, what are you left with? You are left with solving the poem, not trying to solve clues. We don’t know what the clues are. Not to f.
            So when I post,
            Forrest, What’s the minimum number of clues that we need to solve to find the treasure, assuming that we follow the clues in order? `Serge Teteblanche
            Just one Serge, the last one.f
            it’s easy to see that too much is being put into solving or trying to figure out what a clue is. It says the last clue could be solved, he has given us the first clue, but not told us what it is. We cannot read his mind, so anything is a guess, unless, you find an “X” in the poem, and tract a path to get there.
            “The first clue in the poem is ‘Begin it where warm waters halt’. That’s the first clue. If you can’t figure that clue out, you don’t have anything.”
            and,
            Q. Do expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?
            A. No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.
            but,
            “The most common mistake that I see searchers make is that they underestimate the importance of the first clue. If you don’t have that one nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta.”

            So we might as well all stay home? Of course not, you must solve the spot where the chest is to solve the clues.

          • Ken~ I think Seeker forgets what he posts as soon as he hits the post button… I know I do.

            What post? LOL
            I have a hard enough time keeping up with fenn… I ignore me.
            I just find the concept silly that there is a magical one single word that will break open the entire solve.

            1Q) My previous 6 questions were asked shortly before last year’s February 27th segment of the Today Show. Reporting on your extraordinary treasure hunt, it resulted in an explosion of new seekers from all across the world. What are some of your thoughts about the flurry of activity over the past year? Did the excitement towards the Chase surprise you in any way? Does it make you think the chest might be found earlier than first thought?

            It is interesting to know that a great number of people are out there searching. Many are giving serious thought to the clues in my poem, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key. The treasure may be discovered sooner than I anticipated.

            The question {in part} “… surprise you in any way?
            As fundamental may have been imply [ correct me if I’m wrong, fun ] “A” word can be any word for any part of the poem for any part of the poem.
            We have been told over and over to nail down clue one or basically forget about the whole dang thing… if you don’t have that clue all you will have is a nice vacation… right?

            Was fenn talking about a word only helping with WWH, to get us started, and could there be other Keywords that do the same for other clues?
            Warm
            Brown
            Take it in
            Brave
            in the wood
            look
            gaze
            down
            Yada yada yada…
            Every single word in the poem and many from the book have been someones keyword at some point. Heck, “I” has been talked about even before the Q&A ever came out as a key word… “Who is “I”?

            I’m gonna go out on limb and say, many of those words could be a key ~ to a thought ~ for any particular section of the poem we are attempting to decipher.

            Fundamental gave a great line of discussion, and I agree whole hardheartedly with ken.. it’s good to rehash old chats and ideas from years past… cuz, new concepts do come up every now and then, as more info is shared.

            Example; We only ‘truly’ know of one single interview where fenn is ‘heard’ saying BIWWWH is the first clue [ even though other interviews had said something similar, with no confirmation in audio ] for years discussion when on about what the first clue could possibly be… I’d bet this conversation will continue the same path, simply because many only want confirmation and not ideas.

            Again, Fun gave a great post to think/chat about… Which is a bit refreshing, rather than rehashing.

          • Seeker…My comments on what Fundy posted should not be taken as a negative. There is enough noise on the screen is my point. Go to Key Word archive #6. F3 … (almost every line). This should take you to Colokid’s comment about Fundy/ Cindy/ Fenn comment. If you start reading from there, pay attention to Jeremy P’s comments down page *a* vs *the*. There are no shortcuts….though folks keep looking for them.

          • I accidentally posted this above so putting in the proper place…

            Ken, I explained to Jeremy in that archived thread what I meant by plural vs singular and how that pertains to f’s phrase of “a word that is key”.

            I even gave an example that Jeremy understood even though I get that the explanation of singular versus plural is difficult to grasp. There may be a better way to explain it but if I remember correctly f might have used the singular and plural descriptions to explain his “a word that is key” phrase.

            The example I gave was if you put one of your fingers on “a” key of a piano you’d be touching only one key but you had the choice to touch any of the 88 keys on the piano(that’s where the plural comes from- 88 possibilities).

            If, instead, someone tells you to touch the key that they are pointing at, then there’s only one key (singular) that will fit the bill under the conditions giving even though there are 88 keys on the piano still.

            And that translates to the poem like Jeremy started to understand. There are many “a word that are key” in the poem.

            I still don’t understand your worries about no shortcuts can be taken in the poem and how that correlates with what we are talking about. F has said the poem takes a key.
            Nobody talking about shortcuts.

          • *Fundamental*… I have no worries really. Your post is a great one to talk about and so on. My premise is that it is pretty much a no- brainer that the entire poem is important. How many different ways do we have to hear/see/say this fact to make it a fact that is not refutable? *Every word* is a suspect in this case… not just one or two, or three… all of them. Wouldn’t it be interesting to see what everyone thought about just one word in the poem?

          • Ken, I don’t think it’s a fact that the entire poem (and every word in it) is important to solve the clues. So, I don’t think your premise is a no brainer.

            I was gonna comment on how two words in the poem can play off each other but I guess you prefer others to just talk about one word. What I was going to use doesn’t work with just one word.

          • Hi Aaron: “‘A word that is key’ can be the same as keywords in a number of lines if ‘A word that is key’ shows up in multiple lines.”

            Agreed. As I’ve posted before, my word is in every stanza, yet it’s not a poem word. So for me it’s a case of repetition boosting confidence.

          • Hi Aaron: noun. As far as I can tell, a pronoun (I, you, he, she, it, they, we, etc.) would be of no use as a keyword.

  35. Only Fenn Limpieza Inc can clean up this mess. I hear he charges an a$$ and a leg tho…

    Guys…I’ll be here all night.

    • jmells;

      Are you aware of the fact that if you click on the reply button, your post will fall below the post that you are responding to? This helps in keeping a conversation going – not a bunch of one-man comments that are not connected – Just sayin’ – JDA

  36. this is how I see the what the poem is telling me – there is a highway that takes you north from santa fe when you come to where the highway comes to a -Y- stay on the left side that will take you to the other clues if you stay on the same road you were on and not go left all you will see is farm land- from heavyloads straight across from the h.way if you would of not turned left you would be 20 miles apart and you would be going the wrong way.

  37. In my opinion, “precisely” is too vague. Even with a perfect solve of the poem, a good amount
    of time spent carefully searching may still be necessary in order to find the TC.
    As always, IMO.

  38. Off Topic but if your out there PDenver I hope you and your family are all doing well!

  39. Hi, all. Quick question: Do you consider the Bighorn Mountains to be part of the Rocky Mountains?

    I had ruled it out myself after seeing it called a “sister range of the Rocky Mountains” on the US Forest Service’s website: https://www.fs.usda.gov/bighorn It appeared to me on topographic maps as a separate island of mountains east of the Rockies, but it could be argued to be considered an arm of the Rockies in how it seems to be connected by a narrow ridge of mountains on its southern end (that Thermopolis is situated on the approximate midspan of). Whadya think?

    • Hi Blex,

      The Bighorns appear on the TFTW map:
      https://dalneitzel.com/2014/07/02/map/

      I wouldn’t consider them excluded.

      They are certainly on my bucket list for a visit someday (although not part of any current solve). Many significant cultural and historical sights combined with great fishing and beautiful scenery.

    • I think they are in play Blex.
      Whether they are sisters, brothers, moms or dads and as Argillite said they are on the tftw map in the highlighted area.

      • Agreed Blex, on the map, still in play. I’ve found a lot that has the Med wheel as good back up info, but maybe the area has something to do with the chest. I haven’t found it, doesn’t mean it’s not there. If you asked me, I think it could be a map to some of his bells. Spider lady, asterisk, tx, 12016, along with Dr. Eddy’s diagram, could all be hints, as far off as they seem.

          • Thanks, Poisonivey! I’m still around, though more subdued than last year, which was my first year of really getting into this whole crazy Chase thing! Still trying to puzzle things out like everyone else and having a fun time doing it! 🙂

    • Thanks for the responses! Ok, I won’t rule them out completely just yet. I agree that there are some interesting looking areas in the Bighorns, and I would like to hike around in this area sometime at least for the fun of it!

  40. I wonder what Forrest Fenn would have to say about this young man, “The Iceman” Otzi. How would you compare Otzi and Forrest?

    Otzi “the iceman” was born about 5300 BCE. It has been estimated the he lived between 3400 and 3100 BCE.

    His body and personal items (treasures) were found by hikers September 1999 in the Italian Alps at a little over 10,000 above sea level. His body along with his (treasures) cloths and tools were remarkable condition. They have been studied by scientist many times and will studied more in the future.

    Consider, what if Fenn had carried out his original plans and laid his body to rest with his treasures?

    What would the scientists conclude of Forrest and his treasures if they were found 5000 years in the future?

    • Jim;

      Interesting question. As you say, Otzi was found at around 10,000 feet elevation, and Forrest has set a limit of 10,200, so conditions COULD be similar. As I understand it, Otzi was a hunter, hunting in the high Alps, when he was shot in the left shoulder, and perished. He was then frozen for centuries – preserving his tattooed body. Otzi carried a few provisions and a bow and arrow (I think) – but not a bronze chest or 22 lbs. of real treasure (depending on which of two trips Forrest might have been on – or, all 42 lbs of box and treasure if his job were complete) – YUP future archeologists would have a puzzle to solve.

      If “I” am correct in my solve, the elevation would be too low to preserve the body. The aroma of death would have attracted people or beasts before it could be preserved. Who knows? – Interesting question Jim. JDA

      • JDA

        My post has nothing to do with finding the treasure chest. Or, anyone’s solve. I was just comparing the two men and thinking about what may have happened if Fenn’s body was found with his chest 5000 years down the road like Otzi’s body and treasures.

      • Interesting conversation. I have thought long and hard about what may have gone through Fenn’s mind while planning his Chase. The *logistics* involved are interesting to ponder. Fenn has made the comment about letting his bones rot in the sun and going back to the earth… so the idea of preserving his body may be not likely. Don’t forget that he sealed some of his hairs *in* the chest for later testing if the chest were to remain hidden for a very long time.

      • JDA ~ ‘ …but not a bronze chest or 22 lbs. of real treasure…’

        Treasures; keep carefully (a valuable or *valued* item) Cherished. Something that is very special, important, something{s} one would hold dear to.
        Trove; 1 : discovery, find. 2 : a valuable collection; **a place that is full of something good ** { I like that idea, personally } ; A store of valuables, has no ownership.

        While you can call the chest and its goodies a ‘real treasure’ JDA. There might be a reason fenn want to use both words and where he did so in the poem. Are we understanding treasures in stanza 1 correctly? or only making an assumption?
        Look at stanza one as possibly saying;
        ~As I have gone alone in there and with my treasures bold… That would fit the idea of the Ice man [anyone else other than fenn ] very well. A narrative of another… two can keep a secret if one is dead. Meaning; that’s person’s treasures / possessions.
        ~As I have gone alone in there ‘and’ with my treasure bold… This might be saying ‘accompanying’ with. Example; This is fenn special place, and he never considered any other place… a place he alone “treasures” as his own..right?
        WhatIF the idea is, whatever is there, is considered “with my treasures” ~ to be already there. And why trove [ **a place that is full of something good **] was used later in the poem as; the chest and its contents fenn is leaving for ALL to seek AND whatever treasures [of importance to one] is at the place fenn considers his alone, line of thinking.

        The thing is… there are many old bronze chests. Many as old as the one fenn bought for 25K that he could have found and bought. Many in different shapes and sizes…. the one fenn “chose” is a 10″ ‘square ‘box’ and 1/2 the depth of its sides, and something fenn repeats almost every time he talks about it.
        Folks like the idea fenn gives hints, in the book and out… Does “in there” or “in the wood” have anything to do with the size of the hide? Example; 10′ square and 5′ in height or any smaller dimension a searcher would leave his search partner in the car? Room enough for one…
        Look quickly down comes to mind; Bend or crawl…
        Why did I go through this train of thought?… the example is not important… the idea is how many years down the road fenn’s bones can be discovered [ just take the chest and leave my bones]. No need for a frozen mountain top like the Iceman scenario… but more like entombed “in there”. a place with something good.

        I think, folks misunderstand the word cold as well… It’s possible cold could mean; unwelcoming… that kinda feeling ya might get when you come across human bones.
        Then again, I might be thinking too hard to get the entire poem to make any sense.

    • Jim,

      I gather you are reaching for a higher level than what I’m basing my reply on, but I believe Mr. Fenn saved them the trouble of having to “conclude”.
      If that helps any…

    • It’s not a matter of “if” but when, and that goes for all of us frank.
      Enjoy your limited time here.

  41. Fundamental Design,
    I didnt see a reply button for your post above. But I wanted to respond about your comment regarding multiple words that are key. What you said fits with my belief about the word that is key. I have noticed that many lines have different words that all have the same meaning
    Different words with same meaning could be words that are key. Has anyone else noticed this?

    And I also wonder r if anyone has given thought as to why the word “down” is used twice in the poem?

    • Why does water(s) and water appear twice

      Why did Forrest use the alliteration Where Warm Waters…

      One can ask a hundred questions about the architecture of the poem – and until Indulgence is found, we will probably never know the answers – and maybe not even then. Just musin ‘ JDA

      • I don’t know what www refers to specifically or if it refers to anything at all, but its function within the poem may be understandable. First, the triple alliteration is an attention getting device, like rapping three times on a table- got your attention, didn’t it? Second, it underscores the role of alliteration in the poem and the book. Practically every line in the book has pronounced alliteration in it. That’s a lot of doubling-

      • Water(s) and water appear twice because Forrest is tying the same thing together two different places in the poem. Forrest used WWW because he was underscoring the architecture of the poem . 3 or Y or branches. The very first line ” As I have gone alone in there” is the same (I )and g(one) and al(one) = 3 or Y. Plus he is talking about 1. Leaving indulgence by himself and 2, facing cancer by himself and 3. facing death in Vietnam by himself in the cockpit…. once again 3 or Y. Starting the poem with a example of the architecture. At the same time he is stating (in a general way) that all of life’s crisis are faced by the individual. One may have support from the treasures( people) in ones life but ultimately we are usually alone in the crux of the situation. You can carry this thought through out the first sentence as a whole. Forrest explains the architecture, there is no need to guess. I apologize for being preachy I do not mean to put down anyone else’s ideas these are just ideas I have been thinking about for a long time and sometimes they are hard to contain. The poem contains all the information to solve itself if we can push our minds to understand. This is The Thrill of the Chase. IMO

      • Good question JDA. “Why did Forrest use the alliteration Where Warm Waters…” It appears to me that this alliteration is intended to direct our minds to think about flowing water. The rhythm of this line suggests a gentle flow of water in a brook or creek. But, just because FF used this alliteration which surely he knew would suggest flowing water to our minds, doesn’t mean that it can help us solve WWWH. If the alliteration is flowing and then suddenly we halt, then our minds think that we are looking where waters stop moving. But, is that really the answer or is that just a trick of the mind to keep us from thinking of something else?

        • Flutter –

          Fenn uses alliteration all the time, he can’t help it.

          You might say he is alliterate by nature.

        • My thought was, if Forrest uses an alliteration in the poem, possibly when he uses an alliteration somewhere else – like in TToTC, we will notice this new alliteration, and pay attention to it. It might be one of those hints that were “not deliberately put there”

          I found one such alliteration in TToTC that helped with my hoB. One never knows – JDA

    • Good thoughts and question, Flutterby. Hopefully, someone will be able to tell a story one day with the words they find that are key.

  42. Poison ~ ‘I have never said to look for later clues first. I said to solve the poem. Two things very much different. Solving the poem is not solving clues, it is solving the poem. I’m sure some clues will be solved’

    OK, I get the gist of the over all thinking. But what you’re saying seems to be the same as; The path will not be direct for those who have no certainty of the location beforehand? [ so imo, we need to solve the ‘location’ of all the clues, first and foremost. ]
    You seem to be explaining [ correct me if I’m wrong ] there is two stages… solve what the poem is about, relates to, something that give the poem an overall meaning or concept of where we should be… then match the clues to that location.

    What confuses me is, you seem to be saying you can find the/a location closer to the chest, before finding WWH [ or simply, the first ‘deciphers clue’s order’ ].
    IF that is possible, why would we need WWH at all IF we could understand where we are, and what a later clue might be?… it reminds me of the reverse engineering Q&A.
    SO… they way you say; we need to ‘solve the poem’ then decipher the clues… What exactly does that mean?
    Is it knowing the location of the clues? Is it knowing, in close proximity of the chest hide, but still need clues for a precise finding of a 10″ hidey spot? What is the poem saying that needs ‘solving’ ~ before~ ‘deciphering.’

    Don’t get me wrong, I agree to an extent the concept; example the poem could be fenn narrating a journey of another up to stanza 5… then fenn created clue of that journey [ kinda like what we are doing. We are attempting to follow fenn and fenn could have followed another, line of thinking]. Another example; The land itself and the affect of time on it… But those are more about ‘how to read’ the poem, rather than ‘solving’ it.
    For me, “solving” anything is a final product, goal and absolute. How can we solve ‘the poem’ and still need clues?……… that is why I said, this sounds like a two stage theory, rather than an idea of understanding where the clues are at [their location] so we’re not tossing darts at every idea for any given clue.

    • seeker if you don’t mind me jumping in — I agree that first you need to know is how to read the poem and understand its meaning

      • Frank – (See I can spell it right) – Just to interject a bit of humor.

        I agree that first you need to know is how to read the poem…

        Well, start at the first word, read from left to right – top to bottom. Obey rules of punctuation. TAH – DAH 🙂 JDA

        • lol thanks JDA – no wonder I never got out of wwwh when you read from right to left it kept sending me back to wwwh – well I learned something to day thanks JDA – I checked the name frank and it looks like they are in the right place and the right letters I think you got it JDA

    • Seeker, the thing about the clues is this. It is the worst thing that he could have told us. Add in all the double talk.
      From what I’ve seen, it seems impossible to solve SOME of the clues. It’s tough to explain, because I’m terrible at it, but, from the poem you get coordinates. Not to the chest, to clue 8. The lines in the poem that are not clues or don’t offer numbers, seem to be hints of where you are at. We can have ideas of the clues, but we are to be confident in our path. We cannot be if we need to try to read f’s mind and know what a clue is. Especially since f didn’t really know that he had 9 clues until he counted after he was done. So there are references to the 9 clues in the poem. That is a no brainer. But to have written out solves for those 9 clues, when he didn’t know there were 9 clues, lol, sounds ridiculous. With that yields some of the clues don’t have answers. How could he hide an answer to a clue within the poem when he didn’t know which clues there were?
      Like he said, put an “X” on a map. That is the guts of the poem. If your “X” comes at the 5th clue, then be assured that the rest of the clues will be solved within the poem.
      I see the poem like f is explaining what he is doing when he was hiding the chest. He began here and went down/South whatever, into a canyon. Some lines continue with his path, others supply material needed to overall solve the poem. I’m sure feet, distance, direction would come into play. It’s those types of clues that the poem would solve.
      It’s not so much that we need wwwh, we all will start our path somewhere, well that is your wwh. So of course you begin at wwwh. The first stanza and the 5th line alone are not going to solve for a wwwh is. No way. But placing an “X’ on a map and needing to go to it will. That is the only way, IMO, that a starting place can be determined. Why else would it be foolish to look for later clues? Especially the blaze, something that sticks out? If it’s something that sticks out, then locals would have found it. If solvable, would have been found.
      To see that the end spot will answer all your questions about clues is to see his path and the way he wrote the poem. Or we could solve for later clues. We could find the blaze before wwh. It’s almost better to just take the poem with you when you head out to see on the path what he was referring to when he said clues.
      To say we need the first clue or stay home, well of course. To say solving for later clues is foolish, of course. we don’t know what f considers a clue. We won’t know wwwh is until we have the chest, of course, because it cannot be solved in confidence.
      As far as understanding where the clues are at, we all know that some clues need to be FOUND. But of course you will understand because they will be on your path to the chest.
      How can we solve ‘the poem’ and still need clues?………
      We wouldn’t. Remember, if you have hoB, why worry wwwh is. The only important clue is the last one, right. But don’t get it confused that the poem doesn’t solve clues, it needs to solve some, just not all.
      Can anybody, within logical reason, really tell us what the 9 clues are exactly, (for those that feel that they initially solved all 9 clues)? Confidently? Only the wrong will say yes, because they do not know what f considers a clue. And, they don’t have the chest, which means they cannot even know if they have the first clue.
      Now, if a searcher finds their “niche” and finds a way to solve the poem, and puts an “X” on a map, would that searcher be in a better situation? Not having to answer what a clue is, but finding them while BotG? And again, the poem would reference what you come across for those clues that are not known before.
      To me, the poem is just explaining his path he took, but hidden within is something totally different. Reading the poem for face value comes in the end, following the instructions are what need to be done to see what he is trying to give us to find his spot. Remember long ago, the question: “I can keep my”, what does that say? That is how to solve the poem and follow instructions. From those 4 words, you only end up with “my”. Or look at ” no paddle up”, makes you think that there are numbers within the poem, “no” p “add” le up. Just examples, but does this look like it would solve clues? Not to me, but it is solving the poem by the instructions. The end result when the whole poem is solved is A spot on a map. Like your stick analogy, throw the stick, now fetch. Since you know where the stick is, how would you write out a poem to find it. You would probably write out answers to the path you took by explaining clues that you came across. Going from place to place until finally finding the stick. The easy way, right. Are we to think that is what f would do? It would have been found by now, easily. No, this is something that is almost impossible, worth millions of dollars from someone’s life, it would not be that easy. Nope, think, if it was you, would you really make it that easy?
      Over the last couple of years we have all learned each others, say, thought process. I cannot see anyone, if it was their chase, making it that simple. There would be thought, and out of the box thinking, and maybe ideas from multiple sources. To think that an answer to all the clues is within 166 words is comical. From the end results of 8+ years, it looks like f didn’t go the easy route. Saying there are 9 clues within the poem, and then wording the phrase to either mean follow all 9 clues precisely or follow the poem precisely shows how he thinks. That there is something that is not the norm, and not as simple as some would hope. IMO, and I will think this way until proven wrong, all 9 clues cannot be solved with the poem. Some will be but some will not be. I tend to think the one’s that cannot be are the few he mentioned in the ATF. Sorry for the Blah, Blah, Blah.

  43. I’m curious as to what stanza others feel Forrest had the most difficulty with crafting. My guess would be whatever stanza(s) supplies the initial hidden info that we need to unlock to understand the correct wwwh.

    I’d guess the stanzas with the clues would have been at least a little easier to arrange the way he liked it.

    • Fundamental Design;

      Interesting question. My guess would be: Stanza #5:

      “So why is it that I must go And leave my trove for all to seek? The answers I already know, I’ve done it tired and now I’m weak.”

      So, why did I choose this stanza? Because, for me, this stanza was the hardest to understand. Up to stanza #5, I was able to follow the clues – step-by-step to a particular point. And I then reached a dead-end. How to go past this dead-end? Stanza #5 held the answer, but DARN! it was hard figuring it out! Once I had figured it out, figuring out the final clue was relatively easy, but getting past Stanza#5 was rough.

      No, I do not have the chest, but I feel I am close. Waiting for clear skies and warmer weather. Good question. I await your ideas, and the ideas of others. JDA

      • So,” why is it I must go” sure sounds to me like, “So(uthern) Wy(oming) is it…I must go.

      • JDA,
        You had some good searches this summer. Maybe over the winter you can figure out what you missed.

        Stanza 5 is a very important stanza in my opinion. I believe it tells us how to solve the rest of the poem. It contains the instructions of how the poem is to be understood IMO

    • I would say stanza 1 would be the most difficult stanza to craft. The location for the clues presented themselves in geography. Now it is a matter of creating an introduction for the entire poem, that also helps with hints and possibly works in conjunction with later stanza’s on those hints.

      That was my answer as to the hardest stanza. The hardest part about writing the poem had to be creating the hidden message to help us with WWWH. Next to that was trying to make almost every other line in each stanza rhyme while still sending the right message.

      • Aaron summed up what my response is very well. I share his reasons of difficulty in creating the hidden message for the correct wwwh. Also, that stanza one might do that while also being an introduction.

      • Aaron the first stanza is the last stanza-as I have gone a lone in there with my treasures bold I can keep my secrets where and hint of riches new and old – so why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek the answers I already know- your efforts will be worth the cold- if you are brave and in the wood ill give you title to the gold

    • Fun,

      I don’t think much of the poem gave fenn difficulty with creating it. I think it’s more about perception. Example; a mud puddle to an ant.
      The wording in the poem [ at first swipe through ] seems to be talking about very large things and landscape. Yet, we also have examples of how fenn can perceive a “canyon” describing cracks on his hands. [ a subtle hint?]
      The definition of canyon has its depiction of tall side and lower area, yet we really don’t know size of the description, in the poem… it’s only assumed to be large.
      Assumptions with usage of the words is the part I think fenn concentrate on.
      The idea that folks will be surprised where the chest lays in wait, kinda give the impression that most will say.. Ha! that’s not what pictured in my mind. I think [ as others have said ] the poem might be an illusion of sorts, not tomfoolery, just not seeing it the way fenn sees it… yet when finally seen correctly… many might say; What took me so long?

      Assumptions vs. perception example:
      In there and/or In the wood… large forest area vs. a smaller spot
      Take it in vs. go in… a view vs. movement?
      Look quickly down as in elevation or direction vs. bending over or crawling.
      Creek as a waterway vs. a narrow passage.
      Warm waters as in a temperature vs. warm halt as in solid /frozen waters.
      Or even the preconception of the challenge as an observational hunt vs. a stomping point to point hunt.
      etc.

      All versions are in plain english of their meanings work. But what is missing, imo, is how we need to perceive it as fenn intended it to be seen on location. I kinda look at it as fenn’s comment; what he would see if standing at the chest. How large of an area is he seeing? Just because he sees mountains, doesn’t make the location of the clues huge in nature, line of thinking.

      Examples; IF standing at the Grand Canyon of YSP, the idea works well, right? Yet, If [ by pictures and videos we have seen ] of fenn’s own backyard, the ‘descriptions’ fit just as well, only on a smaller scale.

      How difficult would it be to have 166 words seem like one thing vs. another, almost opposite to what we read at first glance-?- and keep it all true / honest the word’s definitions, meaning, and usages. Then add in the factor that a canyon or any other assumptions of what a clue should be, in our minds, might not be a canyon at all… but only the depiction of one.

      Again, How can folks who live and breath the chase, be on site, have deciphered clues “references”… and go by everything and not realize what is right there-?- and get near the chest as well.
      The tweaking [ if you will ] of the poem’s words, phrasing, and placement with in, would have been difficult to keep the idea of size and/or how we should perceive that information very difficult to create clues ‘references’ that are meant one way, yet assumed another.. and be “honest” about exactly what is being relayed for “interpretation”.. without any possible screw-ups… and still able to lead someone “precisely” to a 10″ sq box… or at the very least, it’s hide.

      • I almost feel like the 5 cards being dealt have to be 4 aces and a joker in order to win the pot (in regards to the treasure, imo, but in poker it’s the highest hand when wilds are included).

        • Even if a wild card is used… a royal straight flush beats all. There is no such thing as 5 aces, IF that was where you were heading.
          I think the idea of life as a poker game includes a wild card, as to say, do the best you can, only you still can’t change the rules… but you have room to bluff now and then.

          • Seeker,
            You don’t use joker cards in poker, except when playing a slot machines. IMO
            -B

      • Seeker…I believe that is a great way to look at the problem. I do not think anyone will correctly solve the poem by *discounting* ANY words in the poem. Only after correctly deciphering will it be possible to identify the leftovers.

        • I seldom agree with you Ken. But this time you are right IMO. Until the poem is completely solved, it is hazardous to discard any of the words. IMO

      • Seeker, so you’re saying the poem was probably difficult to craft to be able to do all of that.

        • I would say so, Fun.
          I mean, in attempting to keep things sounding like a large scale, yet true to a smaller scale, honest to the wording and phrasing, having word’s usages that seem to imply both with no misuse of the definitions. Allowing certain words to have more bite, or keyed in on something…
          All while building a design that needs following “exactly” as presented… lol… if one only works on a large scale, they could do it for decades. [lets face it, all the posted solves and chatter is all on a large scale solve]
          I think the NF,BTFTW gets most to look only at a large scales theories. I think the lack of imagination messes with our minds that hoB needs to be somewhere else rather than near WWH. I think stanza 3 gives the idea that there are many places within that stanza, or it could read as a single place. I also think that many want HLnWH to be a linear end of a stomping journey vs. the idea that HLnWH could depict what WWH is. [ in a viewing style theory, that is. ]

          Simply saying, along the idea;
          it’s not who you are, it’s who they think you are.
          OR, it’s not what it is, it’s what I can make you think its not.
          Perception can be an illusion… I think this might be why fenn said the solve will mostly be done with imagination. No need to see figures in the cloud… just see it as a cloud and not a storm.

          The same premise can relate to the idea;
          “Marry the clues to a place on a map.” Many would like to think each clue must have a place all its own [making a large scale solve, idea, and logically so when we see words like canyon, creeks, in the wood etc. and only using simplistic english vs. plain english definition / meanings / usages].

          However, the comment can be understood as; ‘All’ the clues in “A” place on a map. Or a small location that the clues could be viewed from, or even, contiguous that they are ‘combined’ as a single local. This line of thinking uses the words definitions differently. More in-lines with how something can be depicted as ‘creek’ but to mean; a narrow passage.

          fenn [ imo ] told us how he did it… “I look up words and definitions of words, change them went back and rebooted… it [the poem] turned out exactly like I wanted…”

          All presented in ‘poem form.’ for the purpose of interpretations, rather than a mystery style solve. Sure, I can see how this would take an extreme amount of dedication, time, and accuracy, not only to the words, but also using the landscape as fenn sees it.

          • Good post, Seeker. I agree.

            I’ve shared that I think wwwh and hoB are the same thing.

      • Seeker;

        Following the poem, I have been led to at least five different areas within my general area – YES – following the poem. The poem led me to these five different areas. It was not my misreading or misinterpreting the poem that led me to these five different areas, it was the way that the poem was written.

        It was IMPORTANT that I be led to these five different places, for I learned something at each one. Finding out what I was supposed to learn was what was important – that led me to the next location/lesson.

        Sounds crazy I know, but I firmly believe what I just said.

        Did I make mistakes, and did I mis-interpret certain things at times? You betcha! But going back to the poem, I was able to see where it was leading me next.

        THAT is the mastery of the poem. 166 words, 24 lines, 6 stanzas – nine clues all masterfully laid out so that a searcher CAN be led to a 10″ X 10″ X 5′ bronze box secreted in the vastness of the Rocky Mountains. How about “Hidden” things like elevations where certain things are to be found? Wouldn’t that be a masterful feat were that to be hidden in these 6 stanzas?

        Lots to ponder – We do not yet know all of the secrets hidden within these 166 words, and may never know – even if Indulgence IS found. It will be up to Forrest just how much he wants to reveal if and when it is found – providing Forrest is still alive when that happens – and I sure hope that he will be alive when it IS found – Just the musings of an old man – JDA

        • JDA: “It was not my misreading or misinterpreting the poem that led me to these five different areas, it was the way that the poem was written.”

          Nice save JDA.
          I guess we have to blame it on Fenn but I usually look in the mirror.

          • Jake, I also did say that I had made my share of mistakes and mis-interpretations. Read my whole post and don’t just pick and choose those lines that you do not like, and throw stones at those few lines 🙂 – JDA

          • OK, well, now I will use that as a segueway to my two cents on all of this. I think the whole poem was hard to write. It had to have just the right architecture with all of the letters in just the right place. Yes, it is possible to see more than one clue that may or may not lead you to the treasure. Fenn has indicated that part of the mystery is correctly identifying the nine particular clues that will lead you to the treasure. Happy hunting.

          • Yes JDA,
            To your defense, but I still think it’s our thinking that messes it up. Somewhere along the line we leave the poem.

          • It’s so great having Faulker back on board.

            If I ever meet him I am going to buy him a cinnamon doughnut.

    • FD: my guess is the first stanza required the most work. In my opinion, despite no “clues” being in these four lines, there is a lot of information packed into those 25 words.

      • HA! Zap… seeing you mentioned 25 words in the stanza. It reminded me of how I could come up with coordinates within the poem. A kinda, this is the location / area we might need to be in to find the clue’s references… certainty of the location beforehand, idea.
        Point is you use the poem’s lay out or design or structure [ call it what ya will ] a type of pattern to figure WWH. Bu you say [ if i’m correct that you said it ] there’s no coordinates in the poem.
        Why can’t there be, using the same idea you do to produce an answers for WWH? The structure of the poem’s deigned did this with my idea [ at one time ] for coordinates… using the amount of stanzas, the amount of lines, the amount of lines in each stanzas [ because some poems can be three line per stanza ] and the amount of sentences and the capital letters on each line. Not changing any of the structure, design etc. and actually Using the capital letter in brown as a hint to consider the other capital letter for some usable reason.

        Whats the difference between my idea and your idea, when nothing is change, but only produces something else?

        Lugz, I like your question… if Zap’s system is a usable idea, I would think it would have to work for all the clues the same way… as where my, long ago thought, was showing us where to begin looking for the ‘clues’ to start at, and not a solve for the clues themselves.

      • Seeker: “It reminded me of how I could come up with coordinates within the poem. A kinda, this is the location / area we might need to be in to find the clue’s references… certainty of the location beforehand, idea.”

        I’ve got no problem with that. I wholeheartedly agree he does this.

        “Point is you use the poem’s lay out or design or structure [ call it what ya will ] a type of pattern to figure WWH.”

        I’d say it’s more that I believe Forrest used steganography to conceal a word in the poem, and that word helps me solve the precise starting point. It doesn’t help me figure out what the warm waters are that Forrest is referring to.

        “Bu you say [ if i’m correct that you said it ] there’s no coordinates in the poem.”

        Oh, there is coordinate information in there alright (IMO). What I’m vehemently against is the notion that Forrest would provide the detailed latitude and longitude coordinates of the chest within the poem. That would be a clear shortcut to solving all the clues, and more importantly would completely undercut all the work Forrest put into crafting those 9 clues.

        “The structure of the poem’s deigned did this with my idea [ at one time ] for coordinates… using the amount of stanzas, the amount of lines, the amount of lines in each stanzas [ because some poems can be three line per stanza ] and the amount of sentences and the capital letters on each line. Not changing any of the structure, design etc. and actually Using the capital letter in brown as a hint to consider the other capital letter for some usable reason.”

        That’s all fine. There are a hundred different ways that coordinate information could be secreted in the poem — again, stego.

        “Whats the difference between my idea and your idea, when nothing is change, but only produces something else?”

        Nothing at all. I’m in agreement with you.

        “Lugz, I like your question… if Zap’s system is a usable idea, I would think it would have to work for all the clues the same way…”

        I don’t see why the same system would have to apply to every clue. What if it’s just a bootstrap — a primer that helps establish the starting point?

    • I agree with the folks who think that stanza 1 was the most difficult to craft. When I write something I think the first few lines are the hardest since there’s the need to set the direction and tone while also starting the story.

      But the most difficult line to write might have been PIBTHOB since my take is that it packs so much information into one line.

  44. Zap –

    I could not even find the spot to punch in above.

    You have mentioned that by using a technique your “‘key’ word” is found in each stanza.
    Brand new question for you.

    Can you find other words, using the same technique, that occur in multiple stanzas?

    Thanks!

    • Hi Lugnutz: to satisfy the null hypothesis, this was one of the first exercises I carried out. Other words can be constructed with this method, and found in more than one stanza — the shorter the word, the easier of course. But I’ve yet to find another geographically relevant word of non-trivial length that could be found in all six stanzas, or even 5 out of 6. But you’ve inspired me to write a computer program to see if I can find ANY word by this methodology in all 6 stanzas. It’ll take a little while to code up, but I’m very curious to see the statistics of the results.

      • Zap,

        Here we go again, programing is “specialized knowledge” looking for any word for geographic relevance. Its apparent to me that other coded programs have not been fruitful in an effort to help or a solve for the poem or looking for a word that is key.

        Oh well, you’ve got all winter to create something that will not help at all.

        Good luck!

        • OHHH, I don’t know. Do you, or better yet, do many here use the Tarry Scant web site?
          Is it helpful?
          Maybe to f it might seem that programs will not help, but maybe f didn’t think of all the possibilities.
          To say that it will not help at all is a little overboard, and foolish.
          Has this website helped searchers?
          If it is a way to come to a solve of the poem, then nothing would be taboo. It’s better then hearing about another dart throw at a map of the Rockies, and the follow up history lesson that comes after. That is creating something that will help like not at all.

          • Poison;

            Tarryscant.com is a tool – like any tool, it can be helpful. I certainly can not remember every post made by Forrest, or every ATF. Tarryscant makes it easier to search. Like any tool, it is not perfect, but
            helpful – JMO – JDA

      • CharlieM: I’m a decent programmer, so it took me less than an hour to write.

        Lugnutz: I’m glad I did write it — the results showed that it was easier to generate “false positives” than I had estimated from my limited random testing. Still, it’s comparatively rare. For instance, using a dictionary that contained 98352 words of 6 letters or more, 590 of them (about 1 in 167) could be “found” in all six stanzas. Of those, 87041 words were 7 letters or longer, of which 239 (about 1 in 364) could be found in all six stanzas.

        The dictionary I tested with was one I just had handy that I use for cryptography, which is not the right choice for this problem. But it at least gives me some insight into the chances of what I’ve found happening by statistical chance. Previously I would have estimated that it was a 1-in-a-1000 type thing, but it does happen more often than that — less than 1% of the time, but more than 0.1%.

      • Zap –

        To me if other words can be located in six stanzas it increases the likelihood that your word was not deliberately placed.

        I will allow that short or common words may be less meaningful to the test.

        I await your finding.

        Lugnutz

        • Lugnutz: look immediately above your post — I presented some of the program’s results.

          • Zap –

            Charlie raised the next point.

            What do you think about your predetermined variable “geographic relevance”. When you initially found that word you may not have realized that you had predetermined the need for a keyword to be geographically relevant. Looking at it now, had you introduced bias?

            You are looking at this for you, not me.

            My point of view remains unchanged. At some point you will reveal something more specific to me. I may not agree with you. I may, on the other had, agree that what you have found points to a starting place. My assumption is that, from there, your plan is flawed and I can deflaw it. Even if there is no bias or predetermination in your assessment of the keyword it doesn’t mean that the rest of your process is bias free.

            Do you remember that there was a time when Fenn said we are going to thunk ourselves on the head when we learn where the chest is. I don’t think that was a general address to the teeming mass of lemmings salivating at the edge of the Chase. I think he was talking to those that are in the correct search area, those who have deformulated the first clue and with it the place to Begin.

            Cheers!

          • Hi Lugnutz: when I first found that (candidate) keyword, I wasn’t even looking for one or even aware that one needed to be found. (This was over two years ago at a time when I was not nearly as conversant with all the ATF comments as I am today.) So not only wasn’t there a predetermined requirement for the word to have geographic relevance, there wasn’t even a requirement for such a word to exist in the poem at all. That’s the thing: I wasn’t looking for it; one night it was simply there, and then I couldn’t unsee it.

            It is understandable that you are skeptical, and indeed you would still be skeptical after initially learning what it is or discovering it for yourself. That skepticism gradually diminishes (though never completely disappears) as additional supporting evidence is brought to bear.

            “My assumption is that, from there, your plan is flawed and I can deflaw it.”

            If I thought that was the case, I would never have helped anyone discover that keyword for themselves. 😉 The keyword is just the barest beginning of the problem. I have no worries at all about someone rapidly figuring out the third clue once they have the first and second.

            “Do you remember that there was a time when Fenn said we are going to thunk ourselves on the head when we learn where the chest is.”

            Not quite in those words, but yes: there is an element of unexpected surprise: a final twist that brings everything full circle. I’m confident I figured out what it is (it’s quite the palm-to-forehead sort of revelation), and am just disappointed that I didn’t do so until about a week after my last BOTG trip.

            In a more newbie phase, I would be in a panic to head back up there and retrieve the chest in case someone else was close to figuring everything out. Over the years I’ve mellowed about that; I see no evidence on the blogs that anyone is close. Then again, it’s not what they say on the blogs that matters, it’s what they whisper…

          • Zap –

            You misquoted it paraphrase F. Since I was discussing this just today I would like to illustrate why words matter.

            Here it is
            It’s not what they say on the blogs that may be significant, it’s what they whisper. f”

            Hidden in plain sight the following:
            blogs that may be significant,

          • Lugnutz: good alternative interpretation, and typical Fenn-speak:

            It’s not what they say (on the blogs) that may be significant, it’s what they whisper. f”

            vs.

            It’s not what they say on the blogs-that-may-be-significant, it’s what they whisper. f”

            So whose blogs may be significant?

          • Zap –

            I mentioned a couple of days ago that I think Forrest does this all the time. He bookends an important word or phrase with something that obscures his intent.

            Further we often discuss these as if he spoke them all when he actually writes a lot of these.

            In this case it’s worth looking at the old blogs. The ones that are not active, but we’re before he provided the statement or answered the question.

            Mountain Walk is one.

          • Hi Lugnutz: years ago I read a good chunk of Richard’s blog, but haven’t revisited it in at least a year. It’s worth another look since as you say it’s one of the oldest.

          • For those (few?) who haven’t chanced upon Richard Saunier’s blog, here’s a link to get you started:

            https://mountainwalkdotorg.wordpress.com/2011/11/02/hello-world/

            Richard’s motivation for posting (at least at that time) appears to be similar to my own. I’ll quote him:

            “The way it is to work is that I will explain the clues Forrest Fenn has given us in his book, The Thrill of the Chase, as I understand them but with just enough of a time lag so that the final clue, the key, the closing argument will be known only to me until the treasure chest is safely locked away in my storage shed.

            “I will also be like Forrest Fenn and give just enough information to send you in the wrong direction even though the clue, if faithfully followed, will lead you in the right direction, down the correct valley, along a perfectly defined trail to the exact spot where Forrest Fenn could have carefully placed his treasure.”

          • Thanks for the link Zap, I can tell right away that i like Richard’s style.

            Does anyone know what became of Richard? Is he still searching/ solving?

          • Zap –

            Had you read Richard Sonier’s words previously?

            Did you know he does not claim to faithfully represent either his words or Fenn’s?

          • Lug: any of his words or the ones I just posted? (Answers: yes and no, respectively). I had read maybe 10% of Richard’s blog a couple years ago. My goal is to get to 100% before the end of today. (Tall order — he was prolific.) I had certainly read the land surveyor post many times (as I would hope most here have), and also his June 2012 post that included the discussion of the sandwich and the flashlight.

    • Thanks for sharing the link, Jonsey1. Nice pictures, and a fairly accurate summary aside from the “in his 80s” slip and opting for Forrest’s choice to use a period whenever he mentions Dr Pepper. I also invoke the 85% rule on the grinding agates into spherical marbles in an hour under the desk story, and unfortunately I believe the accurate count is five deaths not four.

      Did anyone happen to notice that the point on the Florida panhandle where Hurricane Michael came ashore was Mexico Beach — the city where Forrest and Peggy had their first house in 1954!

      • Zap –

        You surprise me here for the second time in as many days.

        Everyone that recalls this story mentions the agate, but no one mentioned the sandstone. Which is odd. Agates certainly are used to make “marbles’. but did he do this? Did he use a slab of sandstone he kept in hi pocket? Or is sandstone a subtle clue towards either an environment where sandstone has formed OR a place referenced by grind stone.

        Agate only gives you Paradox Valley as a search area, sandstone gives you much more.

        The question for us is: Do I believe this story or does it contain clues?

        Another way to ask is: Did Fenn create a string ball so large it couldn’t fit out the door?

        If I’m not mistaken you know more about string theory and paradox than I do.

        • Off topic but related to creating marbles. When I was trying to force a fit to the Bighorn Medicine Wheel I found a “Marble Quarry Road” not far from a WWWH ” Kettle Base Inn” (Kettle Basin). Lots of other fun stuff near by. Bucking Mule Falls looked to me to be a good HL&WH as it looks as if a large boulder is perched near the edge of the falls. Not looking for a solve there anymore but I still look forward to visiting.

          • I almost feel like there could be a Forrest Fenn commercial, like the Bush’s Baked Beans, where Willie is willing to reveal hints to searchers. In the photo I feel like Willie is reading along or Willie is part cat (as I don’t think I have really seen many dogs perched like that).

    • Anyone know what the little black book is that is laying on top of “the beat of the drum” book which is laying on the drum in the photo?

  45. Random question. When FF and Donnie got lost looking for Lewis & Clark, Donnie was getting impatient and I think the word FF used was that Donnie insinuated that FF couldn’t find his “butt with both hands and the lights on”. Anybody ever mulled over this comment?

    What the heck do the lights have to do with this search. We’ve got the fact that Eric Sloan died waiting for the “light to change”. We have FF’s bathroom where he apparently prefers to shower at night so the “animal” images on the tile walls don’t see. (Scrapbook #?) His bathroom has a skylight that according to FF was a “design deficiency”

    Also wondering whether FF being unable to find his “butt with both hands and the lights on” is a suggestion to the correct definition of the word “but” in the poem. There are a number of definitions for the word but. One is a goal, which would make sense in terms of the chase. Another is a measure of water, or the end of something, a stump, or here is one definition that I find interesting. “to join at the end, be contiguous” is from 1660s, partly a shortening of abut” Notice it includes the word contiguous which the clues in the poem apparently are.

    So I’m wondering if anyone has ideas on the word butt/but. Also wondering if anyone has considered why waiting for the light to change is important. And then I keep wondering about the frequent mention of dreams. FF often seems to comment that he sees such and such in some of his best dreams.

    Any thoughts?

    • Hoping I can remember to come back to this tomorrow Flutterby as the topic of dreams alone is of great interest to me.

    • Flutt –

      I take Fenn’s re-imagining of how his good friend died to mean that we shouldn’t waste time sitting around waiting on someone to act or something to happen. We should make a move. I don’t think this is poem advice as much as it is life advice.

      If you can die standing there, why not cross before the light changes. Take the chance.

  46. I’m wondering, do the blogs/vlogs represent 9 years of crowd sourcing in an effort to solve the poem? What is missing?

      • Writis…I agree that is exactly why the poem has not been solved. As far as the blogs/vlogs go… that’s a whole different animal. There is no way that the eventual poem solver will contribute anything relevant previous to physically acting out the solve. It is fun to subjectively pose an opinion on a thread and interact… but, buyer beware!

        • And by the way Ken, I find this statement the most narrow minded, offensive, and unsubstantiated statement I’ve ever read on the blogs.
          “There is no way that the eventual poem solver will contribute anything relevant previous to physically acting out the solve.”

          Education is free if you are willing to work for it Ken.

          • Sorry my comment hit a nerve. Call it narrow minded… or what you will. You are obviously targeting my comments lately…which is fine. I’m not insulting anyone Twingem… so maybe you should back off and look into the mirror.
            Further… You have no idea what the eventual solver may or may not do, any more than me. My comment at least conformed to something Fenn has said about that person going quietly and retrieving. If you think that person will brag or dangle carrots or share their solve before retrieval…that’s fine…and may be likely considering… just not the humble or wise person I envision. So… from my angle… Your comment actually is not very nice at all, and not very stable. Have a nice day Twingem… you missed the target.

          • Twingem;

            I very much disagree with you, and agree with Ken.
            Look closely at what ken said: “There is no way that the eventual poem solver will contribute anything relevant previous to physically acting out the solve”

            Take me as an example. I am on the blog ALL the time. I have a tendency to run my mouth whether asked or not. The question is, Have I “contributed anything relevant” to the solving of the poem? Probably not. I am VERY careful to keep “relevant” information to myself. So, IF I were to find Indulgence, Ken’s statement would be 100% correct.

            I MAY have offered some “good” (or bad) advice (maybe even this post is good advice), but have I offered any “relevant information” when it comes to solving the poem? Probably not.

            Just something to think about – JDA

          • JDA, there are thousands of other searchers that we are talking about here, not just a few individuals. We are also talking about multiple blogs/online resources where they could have or will post some relevant information regarding the correct solution.

            Another thing we have is time and the eight years that has surpassed. That helps obscure any relevant info and only grows each minute.

          • You must dream first to find anything which rings true. Can you ring a bell from afar? A carillonneur can.

          • Fundamental… maybe you should just come out and say what you are trying to say in regards to this mysterious shared relevant info… that may be obscured… possibly even on another forum.

          • Ken, if your words that there is no way that the poem solver will contribute anything relevant prior to physically acting out the solve was not intended to be mean that a person physically unable to act out the solve had nothing relavant to contribute to the conversation, then by all means, my apologies.

          • Ken, I don’t know what you are referring to.

            But I do know when talking about the topic of crowd sourcing the right things for a correct solve, that talking about how one goes about keeping all one’s own best info off the blogs doesn’t relay the big picture view possibilities.

          • I forgot Ken, there was that one example here from ystdy that I mentioned. It was when JDA posted about keeping his best ideas secret and maybe hinting at them but never revealing his secret info.

            Well, someone else reading JDA’s post can easily see a connection to the poem. The poem talks about a secret and hint.

            So, JDA has secret info but doesn’t hint at it while the one who wrote the poem does hint at his secret. Why?

            Pretty obvious because this is a treasure hunt and the puzzle setter has to give us clues/hints.

            But what about the opinions of many searchers that have stated their opinion that the “I” in the first stanza might refer to someone else.

            By crowd sourcing that possibility that’s been offered by many others, one can see that it’s a reasonable idea and also understand that it maybe part an important part of the mystery to unlocking the correct area for wwwh. All the while, JDA probably had no idea that a simple comment like he wrote has the capability to be the right thing needed to progress in the Chase.

            The question is…if the “I” is referring to another person on top of f, why does that other person hint at their secret?

          • Fundamental Design,
            You asked, if “I” is a person other than FF, why does “I” give hints? I just wanted to confirm that while I do not believe “I” is FF, I also dont think its another person. I think “I” is a thing.or a place.

          • FD;

            Since you commented about me, only fair that I respond.

            You are right, it IS a treasure hunt, and YES I am going to keep certain things secret.

            IF I wanted to keep everything a secret, I would be a lurker, but I am not. I DO honestly try to contribute things that I think will help other searchers, without giving away the store.

            As an example, I have said that my “Meek” place refers to a name (actually the name of three places) that a meek person might shy away from.

            I state that these places are NOT dangerous. I see these as BIG hints, without disclosing what these three things/places refer to.

            I hope that I contribute something meaningful when others post ideas that I may not agree with. IF these posts give others a new way of looking at the poem YEA!

            I do NOT (yet) have Indulgence, so my posts are just as valuable – or worthless – as anyone else’s.

            Do I believe in a collective solve – no I do not. Do I believe that one idea presented by one person could help another with finding Indulgence – certainly. Enough said – JDA

          • Twingem…my skin is tough as nails…so it matters not really. I assure you that my comment was meant just like I stated it with no ill will towards a soul…. and who would think otherwise? Anyway… thanks for the tentative apology. Also… this a great example why crowd sourcing or active group sourcing in a setting like this is ridiculous !
            Too many different agendas…and way too much subjective assuming going on about comments from faceless entities…In my world…trust is earned and honored accordingly. Have a nice day Twingem.

          • I guess Ken and few others don’t realize there’s a good test one can use to see if good information has been shared on the blogs.

            Opinions versus analysis…hmmm.

      • I believe in some circles not thinking the right thoughts is called “stinkin thinkin.” Guess there is a lot of that going on.

        Luke’s song seems a good morning start to help with some stinkin thinkin: https://youtu.be/Q-KsToawMJE

    • The most obvious answer is that crowd-sourcing on the blogs/vlogs is hobbled due to the best information not being posted.

      • As amazing as the chase is for psychology it is also a fantastic study in economic theory.

      • Why do you think the best information is not posted? Why post at all then?

        What on earth would the motives be to not post the best information when posting and vloging is totally voluntary?

        What would be different by crowd sourcing via another medium – say face to face or vloging?

        Does the medium used for crowd sourcing change the motives of all share the best information?

        So many question if I really think about it all.

        I’ve been reading fascinating aeticles and studies of how crowd sourcing is used to get others to do work and heavy lifting for a particular cause that one or more persons sponsoring the crowd sourcing has a vested interest in.

        It’s like a lobbyist model, only different. I’m not sure the crowds intersts ever really come into play.

        Wow, mindblowing thoughts on a Friday no less!

        I’m sticking with good ole Luke today: https://youtu.be/Q-KsToawMJE

        • Hi Twingem,

          I’d say the two main reasons some info is not shared is that only one person is going to recover the treasure. Many people are hopeful it will be them.

          The second main reason would be the inability to contain the spread of “Spoiler Alert” information. Being provided an answer is no where near as much fun as solving a puzzle.

        • Twingem;

          You say: “What on earth would the motives be to not post the best information when posting and vloging is totally voluntary?”

          Simple answer – “Keeping vital information secret.” I have been posting for 33 – almost 34 months. In all that time I have never posted my WWWH, my canyon down, my hoB nor my “Meek” place. I have discussed my “Meek” place, but never given its location – only hints about it. I have said that my “END” place is a parking place – no more. I have shared thoughts on what I think a blaze could be, but never disclosed what I have thought the blaze to be. I have talked about definitions of many words in the poem including “quickly” – “far” and a few others – but nothing that would “Give away the store.”

          Why all of the secrecy? I hope to have the honor of saying that I was the one who figured it all out. Why give away a winning recipe before the judges can give me the 1st prize for the best cake? Seems a bit foolish to me.

          Just why I am careful about what I post – JDA

          • Now that is a truth I understand JDA.

            That truth alone makes me wonder why folks think crowd sourcing will solve this in any way that benefits all. It just isn’t the spirit of what Forrest has said for 9 long years and soon to be 4 books imo.

            I suppose I’m differently wired than most though. Because I believe Forrest would like to see the end of the Chase AND continuation of the chase with new stewardship by the one who understood it meaning and did the work. Heck, I literally posted my final solve and put massive clue answers and hints on the blogs and vlogs begging folks to go BOTG to recover the chest. I wonder why no takers — but one?

          • Hi Twingem — minor correction: it’s only been 8 years, not 9. TTOTC came out in October 2010, and I doubt there was a blog about it until 2011.

          • I think there’s pluses and minuses to either route one takes- going alone or crowd sourcing. So, some might feel there’s a slightly better benefit to the crowd sourcing path. Especially, if they have done the other route for many years. There is always time involved in the equation.

            I don’t understand how some feel no one has posted somewhere in over 8 years some thing(s) that actually turn out to be the right way of solving the Chase or part of it.

          • FD: it’s not that there isn’t correct information posted on the blogs related to the winning solution; it’s that any good ideas are obscured by a sea of neutral or incorrect information, with no means of differentiation.

          • Hi Fun D,

            I totally agree that there is a plethora of info here at HoD that is extremely helpful in making progress.

            There are brilliant people here providing incredible guidance. I am very grateful for all the help and support I’ve been provided.

          • Fundamental ~ ‘I don’t understand how some feel no one has posted somewhere in over 8 years some thing(s) that actually turn out to be the right way of solving the Chase or part of it.’

            I think it is a good possibility… We have the four first clues comment that may relate to just that.
            We really don’t know the ratio of active botg to bloggers only, or any idea of how many only had botg once… fenn’s “uncertain knowledge” might be of some searchers who are not in direct contact {via e-mail} But was read from any number of blogs.

            Somebody has stated four correct deciphered clue references, in their order… yet they may not know it, not unlike the first two clues solvers. It’s interesting how that keeps happening. 1/2 the poem’s clues and something still seems to be missing…

          • Nice dialogue. Thanks for contemplating all the what ifs and whys. Maybe that’s how it is cracked.

          • I think that sharing of ideas is the way to go. I dont want this chase to consume my life. It would be awesome to discover the TC. But I would also be quite satisfied if someone else found it and I could see that I did had some of those clues figured out. I like the idea of solving the poem and while I wouldnt turn down the TC, I dont plan to keep it anyway. I would donate it to a museum after returning FF’s bracelet to him.

          • zap, according to you, I’m correct in saying that good info has been posted on the blogs about the correct solution.

            It’s a different matter that you bring up with trying to uncover the good info in a sea of bad info with no way of telling which is which. I’d say that more often than not it would be more faster (efficient) to find that info on the blogs than to be able to figure out the correct solution from just oneself.

            I think it’s not as hard as you have framed it. I think it’s even easier if it’s crowd sourced. Good reasoning skills should be able to do the trick!

            I think someone said something that has important implications about the correct solve just in this conversation about crowd sourcing and it’s pros and cons. I bet that person doesn’t even realize the implications of what they related. That wasn’t hard to find in the sea of posts.

          • Hi FD: “according to you, I’m correct in saying that good info has been posted on the blogs about the correct solution.”

            I think so. I’ve certainly tried to provide what I think are correct ideas about the winning solution without blurting out my answers.

            “It’s a different matter that you bring up with trying to uncover the good info in a sea of bad info with no way of telling which is which.”

            It’s often been joked over the years that Forrest could post the correct solution under a pseudonym, and it would still be rejected by everyone. While I believe that’s a bit of an exaggeration, I predict that if/when the treasure is found and (say) the state that it was found in is revealed, there will be searchers in the other 3 states that will claim the finder is lying.

            “I’d say that more often than not it would be more faster (efficient) to find that info on the blogs than to be able to figure out the correct solution from just oneself.”

            Perhaps. Speaking for myself, I’d have to disagree — but with a big qualification. Dal’s site is a fantastic resource because it contains all the Scrapbooks, Vignettes, etc., links to all of Forrest’s videos, email exchanges between searchers and Forrest, announcements of Forrest’s public appearances/events, links to online articles, and a dozen other odds and ends. 4 years of searcher blog comments that preceded my involvement, while interesting, were of no use to me in figuring out WWWH. (After the fact, I did find one searcher from yesteryear who had the right general idea, but no indication that they knew how to turn that into a specific WWWH starting point.) However, once I had my WWWH, Dal’s site was and is unmatched in terms of providing resources for testing it out.

            You mentioned crowd-sourcing. That could work in a private setting, but not a public one (e.g. here) because the prize is too great and the lurkers too numerous.

          • Zap, when talking about the benefits of crowd sourcing there are many individuals (in the case of the Chase as many as there are searchers) that have the opportunity of it working for them. We aren’t concerned about the ones that are firm they won’t go down that path.

            You hit the mark when you said it can work in a private setting, I was wondering when someone would mention that. There’s plenty of opportunity to achieve some elements of crowd sourcing on the blogs that doesn’t include giving away the farm.

          • Hi FD: to a considerable extent, this is already being done. Many folks here email each other privately and exchange information that they would never post on a blog. Also, I would think that most of us bounce ideas off our significant others (I know JDA does!), so we’re not exactly working in a vacuum.

            But I’m betting in-person, hashing out of ideas between well-versed Chase veterans is a rarity. This is where synergism would pay the greatest benefits: equals cross-critiquing their theories who bring different strengths and experiences to the table. I believe this is the approach Aaron is planning to try.

    • I think this is a question only Fenn can answer.
      Going back to the “whisper” statement tells me some have emailed him some of the actual spots where the clues are.

      Because the chest is not found, I would have to say whatever information is kept secret and public doesn’t matter.

    • On purpose? I don’t know, most people post what they can explain. There is apparently no good confirmation of the clues, or if someone did post the right solve to a clue with confirmation we didn’t believe it.

    • ken, I don’t agree with the notion that a collective effort will not produce anything of value. It is all a matter of planning and thinking. I’m sure that a set of individuals with the right mindset can tackle this problem one step at a time.

      I will say that the first requirement is to erase any preconceive ideas and start at the beginning, keeping in mind that it is not a direct path but a very difficult blueprint. Do we have the capacity to step back a bit and think realistically first and convince ourselves that no matter what we think it is, it may just not be? There is plenty evidence to that, and it is hundreds of thousands of searchers in the last 8 years who thought they had it nailed down but didn’t.

      Forrest said that we cannot have a correct solve unless we can knowingly go to within several steps from the chest. The way I read that is easy, if you don’t have the treasure you have nothing but a nice vacation and that’s it. Are you getting closer, are you learning the layout of the land, went left instead of right or some other excuse? nope, start over. That is just the HARSH reality in front of each of us, like it or not.

      • OZ10;

        I do not know on how many different levels I can disagree with you.

        You say: ” It is all a matter of planning and thinking. I’m sure that a set of individuals with the right mindset can tackle this problem one step at a time.” How can a group of individuals get the right mindset if they can not get that mindset on their own? You say that they (as a group) need to throw away all of their past ideas and start anew. Why can’t a single person do that IF they are stuck? – What power is their in the group convincing each other that they have been wrong and to start over.

        Step one MIGHT be to reach agreement on which of the four states is correct. OK I forget that I feel that Wyoming is the correct state, and Zap forgets that it is Montana, and Cynthia (of old) forgets that it is NM and PDenver forgets that it is Colorado – Now where does the group go from there? Even though I am
        supposed to have forgotten Wyoming, when asked, I give reasons I think it is Wyoming, and Zap MT, and Cynthia NM and PD Colorado – Will I win because I have the loudest voice? OK, it is Wyoming! Why? Did I offer the best “reason” or just because I am the loudest or most persuasive?

        What are Zap, Cynthia and PD to do now? Accept a new state?
        How can they “Believe” in the new beginning?

        I am sorry, I just do not see serious searchers giving up on things that they have believed in for years.

        In this new found group will I be willing to share things that took me 33 months to figure out? It sure would be hard.

        Maybe for some, who are totally lost, it might work. If your back is to the wall, and you just can no longer believe in yourself or your solve, MAYBE a group think would work. For me, a guy that absolutely believes in myself, and my solve – sorry – count me out. The idea is abhorant. Good luck to those that see it as a way out of their present morass.

        Sorry, didn’t mean to preach – JDA

      • OZ10…. those are my thoughts too in essence. My point was…that a forum setting such as this is not the BEST option. I could envision a face to face in person setting with a hand picked group maybe working through the puzzle….but even that has it’s downfalls if members are not on the same page. You are right with the notion that it may not be what we think and I believe the blueprint may be so ridiculously *in our face* basic/simple that some will never believe even when it is over.

        Also…there may be a slight disconnect with some folks using the term *crowd sourcing* and thinking that means *working together*. I believe some are saying *crowd sourcing* and meaning that the info has already been shared over the years piecemeal and is there for the gleaning.

  47. I was looking at the contractions in the poem. I found five:
    it’s there’ll you’ve I’ve I’m

    Until today. Every single time I’ve read the poem, I have read “it’s” as “it is” (no place for the meek). But I just realized: it’s could mean “it was!!!” I don’t know if it necessarily means anything different?!

    Also, in looking at the missing letters:

    If “it’s” is “it was” the missing letters from the contractions are (notice WWH and Fenn laughing at us).
    If “it’s” is “it is” the missing letters are (notice anagram of Ha Hawaii).

    Since the rocky’s are closed for business, anyone want to have fun searching for WWH in Hawaii instead? 😉

    • Weird. I put in brackets and it deleted part of my posting (which makes me look ditzier than normal).

      it was: contractions = wa wi ha ha a (WWH Ha!)
      it is: contractions = i wi ha ha a (Ha Hawaii!)

    • Hi Emma: Ha Hawai’i has been noted here before, but it’s been a while. I’m actually headed there in December for a much-needed break from everything Fenn. 😉

      • Zap…that is correct… I was not even going to mention it. Hey ! Hope you have a great trip when you go…watch out for hot lava.

      • Hi Ken: Maui this trip, so no hot lava. 😉 Argillite: might surf if not too big (which it usually is in winter), but mostly I snorkel and scuba when there.

        • Have a great time, Zap. \,,,/. Air Show coming up next week, Huntington Beach, you going?

        • PI/charlie: Breitling? Might watch from Sea Legs or some such location. Will avoid the H.B. pier area due to the crowds/traffic.

          • Definite. Girlfriend wants to get a vacation rental on the sand, we live just 15-20 minutes away, but she’s the boss. Can you believe from 500-1000 dollars a night. Lol, that’s where my role comes in. Auuggh, she’s the boss.
            If you’re walking around Newport and see some guy barbequing, and 3-4 drunk chicks, that’s probably me. I’ll be the one with a Corona in one hand, and a spatula in the other.

    • It’s [it is] and it was, are not the same.. ‘it was’ can not be shorten. The idea of the anagram falls apart be for it starts.

      I’d w’nder moor ’bout; “I have” and “I’ve” in the poem…

      • it was = ’twas

        ‘Twas brillig, and the slithy toves
        did gyre and gimble in the wabe;
        all mimsy were the borogoves,
        but tarry scant with marvel gaze.

        Jake

  48. Hi all;

    I was just watching a bit of TV, and heard something that I liked –
    “Luck is when opportunity meets preparation.” I like that! JDA

    • WHAT!!! You moved from the computer screen? Does Dal know about this?
      You getting in a little “Bar Rescue”. Sounds like something he would say.

        • Have to monitor that JDA. You might not get the most posts by years end. Zap is on your heals, one flub up and no prize for you. Zap may sneak up and snatch it from you faster then an Ebay item. Lol, don on the space suit and depends.

          • Charlie – Never has been a race – Zap is a bit younger and took off quicker – I am in it for the fun of it, not sure what Zap’s looking to get out of it – 🙂 JDA

          • Zap – If you remember, last year Dal couldn’t figure out how he had gotten the data, and there was no winner. Probably the same this year. JDA

          • Like I said though, I never have tried to be the “Biggest mouth” – just like posting to keep me in the game – JDA

          • I’ve got my 2016 crown but never received a shirt.
            I’m focusing more on quality than quantity now.

          • Nobody is arguing that you don’t have a big mouth Jake, 🙂
            Was it you and JDA, then too? (it’s good to be the king). lol…

    • I think the origin of that idea is Machiavelli. I remember using a quote like that for my graduate school application essay.

    • Wow, thanks for sharing that JDA!

      I was first given that information by Steve Morse at a guitar clinic about 25 years ago. It has really resonated with me all these years and something I’ve shared with many people over the years as excellent advice. Any interested guitarist can find how Steve delivers it at the bottom of this article:
      https://www.guitarmessenger.com/interviews/steve-morse-interview/

      I had no idea until you shared it and I Googled it that it was originally from a Roman philosopher Seneca.

      Certainly ties in with P5 and the component of the equation we have the greatest ability to affect.

    • I’ve only ever heard that concept expressed as “Chance favors the prepared mind” (a quick Google shows me it’s a quote from Louis Pasteur).

      • WOW – Never thought to look it up – I just liked it. Thanks guys – glad you enjoyed it – JDA

  49. Twingem, As I have said before, I will go with you. I don’t need to know your solve. It is your solve. Simply say turn left, turn right. Look here, look there. If it comes down to it you decide my share. g

    • Thank you ace340. That is truly the most generous and selfless offer I’ve ever received.

      I’ll need you to drive, and you’ll need to be blind-folded .

      Just funning of course.

      I was able to find what I needed at my final solve after all with a little help from a friend. So I’m good now.

      If you ever need a walking search partner (that can’t lift more than 5-10 pounds)…holler. I’d be happy to go. I’ve BOTG many times over the years, and every time has been awesome. That won’t ever end I hope.

      Peace.

  50. Here’s some food for thought. How many of you have considered the fact that Mr. Fenn has 2 daughters, numerous grandchildren and great grandchildren that know him better than any of us ever could and yet, they can’t figure out where the TC’s located or, are any of them even looking. My considerations aren’t very complimentary so, I’ll just say that IMO Mr. Fenn is a shrewd business man and, has prepared for the future for himself and his family, like his father did. “making plans is antagonistic to freedom.” Nonsense. IMO the question in stanza 5 has to be answered with a business sense of mind. Don’t get me wrong, I believe the TC’s out there for the time being for many reasons but, I think it will be retrieved by Shiloh just before Mr. Fenn passes this vale, if not found. I could go on but, I’ve stirred the pot enough. And yes, I’m still searching as long as the opportunity is out there. Afana

    • No replies, that’s rare, except for Seekers slight on bad-attitudes. Read my post slowly. If you’ve read TTOTC, Mr. Fenn has always found a way to get ahead and that mindset imo has never changed. How can anyone figure this out without getting to know the 13yr. old boy/ man. And yes Seeker, emotions are involved in this chase. I’ve tried to tell you that for some time now.

  51. Since it would now take a small miracle for me to be able to travel from home (Montgomeryshire) to the Rockies to conclude my search, here are a few of the “what ifs” that have been important to me at one stage or another. Maybe one or two others will find something of value here.

    What if numbers are as important as words to the correct solve?

    What if the TC cannot be stumbled on because it is “protected?”

    What if FF requires no camera to know whether the TC has been discovered?

    What if you really do need to “listen” in order to fulfill the quest?

    What if it is you that needs to adjust, as much as your chosen path?

    What if the Chase is a dynamic, “living” entity that adapts to your needs?

    What if the reverberations from the Chase extend well beyond the Chase community?

    What if the geographic extent of the Chase is much larger than most searchers imagine?

    What if the quest is actually way more challenging, exciting and meaningful than we yet understand?

    What if applying precision in the correct way will allow you to visually confirm the start, middle and end with confidence?

    What if the word “wise” requires more than a second glance?

    What if the elimination of Idaho and Utah has greater significance than might first appear?

    What if it would be unwise to believe that where you start is close to where you finish?

    What if words are as important as numbers to the correct solve?

    • Vox ` Whatif’s

      1. Could be or not… many have look at both and still notta.
      2. I’m sure it’s well hidden… ya ain’t gonna find it under a bush.
      3. Don’t really care, i doesn’t help a solution in any way.
      4. not sure what you’re implying… to the poem? to nature? a voice from a burning bush?
      5. Fenn stated as much…
      6. Whaaat? Living entity? I mean, the RM’s move / up lift / change and erode,… Earth is a living entity compared to our solar system… need more info here.
      7 umm err. I’ma gonna just say Naaa.
      8. LOL.. what if time is involved?
      9. Doesn’t precisely indicate that?
      10. or third or fourth or … as many time needed until it smacks ya in the head.
      11. WhatIF all the remaining states are needed in one form or another, with no possible elimination of any one of them?
      12. WhatIF fenn followed the clues and walked the same, most direct route, twice, only to get to all the clues from where he parked and did it all in one afternoon?
      13. Isn’t that basically the same as WhatIF #1

      • I’m regards to your wording of #4, if you encounter a burning bush you should really see your Doctor asap.

        • Idle Dreamer and Seeker,
          I think you might be okay if you encounter a burning bush. But, if there is a voice coming from it, definitely make an appointment with a psychiatrist. You may have taken the poem a little too far. Might be time for a break.

    • Vox,

      I like two of the what-ifs you suggest.
      “What if the elimination of Idaho and Utah has greater significance than might first appear?” Actually, I think that is true!

      “What if words are as important as numbers to the correct solve?” IMO, numbers are not important to be used with the map. I think the mention of age and time is important to teach a concept in the books, but once that concept is understood, I think numbers are insignificant.

      IMO

  52. Vox;

    You pose an interesting set of “What If’s”

    I will take a stab –

    What if numbers are as important as words to the correct solve? – I doubt it

    What if the TC cannot be stumbled on because it is “protected?” – I agree

    What if FF requires no camera to know whether the TC has been discovered? – doubt it.

    What if you really do need to “listen” in order to fulfill the quest? – I agree

    What if it is you that needs to adjust, as much as your chosen path? – absolutely

    What if the Chase is a dynamic, “living” entity that adapts to your needs? – doubt it

    What if the reverberations from the Chase extend well beyond the Chase community?
    Who knows? Not sure how it will affect the community at large.

    What if the geographic extent of the Chase is much larger than most searchers imagine? I think it is smaller no bigger than 12 miles square.

    What if the quest is actually way more challenging, exciting and meaningful than we yet understand? – Totally agree

    What if applying precision in the correct way will allow you to visually confirm the start, middle and end with confidence? – within reason

    What if the word “wise” requires more than a second glance? – totally agree

    What if the elimination of Idaho and Utah has greater significance than might first appear? – Not sure I understand or agree

    What if it would be unwise to believe that where you start is close to where you finish?
    Close is relative – like I said – 12 miles square

    What if words are as important as numbers to the correct solve? – FEW numbers involved – WORDS – and their meanings are FAR more important.

    Just my stab at some interesting “What IF’s – JDA

    • Thanks for responding, JDA. Your answers are true to your experience – as afar as I’m aware of it.

  53. With winter quickly closing in on the Rocky Mountains, I have put my boots up until next year. Like most others , I use this time to revisit ideas, study maps and read and re-read TTotC , searching for those tantalizing “hints” that I may have missed. I also have read “Journal of a Trapper” quite a few times . I can see where this book could spark the curiosity and fascination of a young Forrest, imagining what it would be like to see these places for the first time ,like Osborn Russell Can you imagine no fences, boundaries, no GPS or lines of tourists ? No safety net.
    How about eating bear? Russell said it tasted like pork. Hmmm..
    I also love the influence of Russell’s writing on Forrest.
    From Journal of a Trapper:
    “for mountaineers, not for those who never repose on anything
    but a bed of down or sit or recline on anything harder than silken
    cushions, for such would spurn the idea of a hunter talking about
    comfort and happiness. But experience is the best teacher, hunger is good sauce, and I really think to be acquainted with misery contributes to the enjoyment of happiness, and to know one’s self
    greatly facilitates the knowledge of mankind. One thing I often console myself with, and that is, the earth will lie as hard upon the monarch as it will upon the hunter, and I have no assurance that it
    will lie upon me at all. My bones may, in a few years, or perhaps days, be bleaching upon the plains in these regions, like many of my occupation, without a friend to turn even a turf upon them after a hungry wolf has finished his feast. “

    I started this chase looking for a Romanesque box filled with gold, but it has become so much more for me. I am fascinated with the Wild West, the Mountain Men and early explorers. Not to mention the Native American culture . Great men like Chief Joseph and Sitting Bull. I find myself forgetting about where to look now, but have a connection to those who have walked those mountains and valleys before me and try to imagine it through their eyes.
    I wonder if any of you out there feel the same?

    Just the musings of a Texas Gal who needs to get back to the mountains ASAP!

  54. Thanks to JDA, Seeker, Idle Dreamer and Flutterby for considering my list. Although there’s been no burning bush (yet), I, and others, have had reason to question my sanity on a number of occasions over the past few years!

    Dealing with the more esoteric stuff first. While most of the scientific community has long denigrated claims regarding paranormal activity, there have nonetheless been some interesting experiments – not least within military research establishments. And of course the power of suggestion is used by hypnotists both to change behavior and to entertain (often in somewhat dubious taste, IMO). So how does this relate to the Chase?

    The only way to solve this ridiculously cryptic poem appears to be to think like Fenn – to burrow under the surface of the words in order to extract the real meaning. But what if that very act of burrowing were to create a two-way street? You have created a channel into FF’s thought process, but at the same time that conduit allows FF to “see” into your thoughts? In other words, if such a mental tunnel could be created, what would there be to prevent a two-way flow?

    Now, the very idea of creating a bridge between two minds sounds fanciful and distinctly unscientific. But there’s a tendency today to label concepts that seemed quite normal to previous civilizations, including Native Americans, as “superstitions.” Here is a very matter-of-fact article about the notion of the vision quest:
    http://www.native-americans-online.com/native-american-vision-quest.html

    So, if there is anything similar occurring within the Chase (and, yes, that’s a big if), how might it work? Perhaps the years spent contemplating the poem, questing on the ground, adjusting mentally and physically, and revising one’s attitude to the gold, as well as becoming more aware of one’s true motivations, are the necessary preparation before the quest. The Medicine Man who will guide you is FF – and whatever comes out of it is what the higher power has in mind for you. And because you have already created the channel between FF and yourself, he can act as your mentor and protector during this arduous mission.

    I only just discovered the article referenced above, and I’m still digesting it, but it has uncanny correlations with my own experience of the Chase and the deep mental turbulence that resulted. Already, despite the fact that circumstances have precluded my finishing the quest, it has wrought powerful changes in my understanding of the world. It has also opened my eyes to the immense forces at play – and what they are capable of. One day I would like to share a little of that, but now is not the time. But I will reinforce what William Walk Sacred says about the fact there’s nowhere to hide (one of the things that I’ve found the most difficult):

    “You cannot go off the path at that point because you are now owned by the spirits. They watch you continuously. There is no hiding. Someone once said to me that people live their lives as if God can’t see around corners. God can see around corners. We don’t get away with anything, especially once we’ve made a commitment in our hearts. That’s why before going on a vision quest, it’s important to pray for months, sometimes a year or longer, to make sure that you’re clear in your heart about the direction you’re seeking.”

    Whether or not the above strikes a chord with you, there is little doubt that FF possesses great reverence for these old ways – as well as for Sitting Bull’s peace pipe. Is it so out of the realm of possibility that this is the real reason behind the Chase?

    Turning to the more practical aspects of finding the TC. Seeker hit the nail on the head, IMO, with his comment that ALL the remaining states are needed. It took me the best part of five years to understand that. But there’s yet another significance to the Idaho/Utah connection…

    And as for numbers, numbers have power. Mathematics lies behind everything we see (and much of what we don’t see), and ancient civilizations have long held particular numbers to be significant. Maybe it’s not a good idea to dismiss them before really trying to understand how they may help you move forward with much more confidence.

    Thanks for tolerating the above!

    • Well, vox…
      That might be my problem in solving this challenge. I never question my sanity… it left home along time ago.

      Yet, if we’re talking about emotions, beliefs, attitudes – badittudes, and what nots… I think some of the problem is, as fenn puts it, being target fixated. The ending point, or the lure, seems to be making everything else look fuzzy. All that seems to be attempted is looking at the ending of it all, and not paying any attention to the journey itself or even why. Kinda like; climbing a mountain not only to discover the next passage, but to see where ya came from as well.

      End of fortune cookie post…

      • I think you make a very good point, Seeker. There are many times when I’ve been target fixated (not least to scratch that darn itch so that it goes away once and for all!), but we have been set a challenge. The challenge is to solve the poem and find the box. Along the way, we have all been having some amazing experiences. The journey is definitely a big part of the overall experience, but of course we don’t need the lure to get out into the wilderness and experience nature.

        So, like you say, having climbed the heights we look back over the way we’ve come – and how far – and ring the changes. But maybe there’s more to it than that. If you read through the few linked passages in the vision quest URL I posted above, you’ll note that there are a few things that chime with the Chase. The expectation that the participant will make a gift to the medicine man at the conclusion of the quest (return the bracelet); the concept of attending the sweat lodge prior to setting out (communing with other searchers); George Catlin’s Creed (Fenn references Catlin); the use of sage to keep your pipe free of spiritual and physical accretions (Fenn and sage – so many references); etc.

        None of this is conclusive. The only sure things are our own personal experiences.

        • Vox…. I’ve been thinking about your posts over the last few days and see that the passion of the Chase is still very much alive for you… even though it may have thrown you some serious curveballs. Everyone deals with adversity differently… some grow with it… some are stunted by it…and some just don’t care enough to reflect. In the end… talking about it is the best medicine….

          • Ken, sometimes that passion has morphed into a horror movie, but yes, you’re right the Chase still has a grip on me. There is much I’d like to share about my story, but the time will need to be right. I’m still grappling with how to deal with the odd experiences that have come my way in the last few months.

          • Vox,

            I agree with ken with some of his points.

            You said; ~ sometimes that passion has morphed into a horror movie, but yes, you’re right the Chase still has a grip on me.

            I can’t help to think it’s not passion at all, but falls in line with obsession. That is target fixated to the extreme, the lure, rather than the influence… A passion should never drive you to be a concern, but rather a fulfillment, a part of your life, rather than controlling it.

            Ken said ~ talking about it is the best medicine….

            Or if I may say it this way… Smack -upside the head- ‘get a grip buddy’!
            I call that the short and to the point method, leaving out the fluffinutter.

  55. I looked up “put in” in Webster’s. The only reference to water, was “putting into port”. Which is where a journey stops.

    • I think that the fact that the word “put” is followed by the word “in” is getting people off track. There are many definitions of “put” and people arent looking at them because it is followed by “in”. I think the correct definition of “put” is placed. I think WWH is placed in below HOB.

      • Hi Zap, I think it’s plausible, considering that there does not seem to be any description of the blaze else where, other than the types of things Mr. Fenn said could be a blaze. Which are so numerous, it could be anything. I think the idea has legs. Particularly so, because we are not directed anywhere after the HOB, only given a description of things that could all be in the same area.

      • Hi James: yep, Forrest has given lots of examples of blazes. I think he’s been trying to hammer home the futility of trying to solve the blaze before the clues that precede it.

        “I think the idea has legs. Particularly so, because we are not directed anywhere after the HOB, only given a description of things that could all be in the same area.”

        For me, the “From” of “From there it’s not place for the meek” seems to suggest movement away from wherever we’ve put in below the hoB. “Ever drawing nigh” also suggests that as our quest continues, the quarry is continually getting closer (or the journey is coming to a close), further suggesting physical movement by the searcher.

        • Zap, I see what your saying, there could still be quite a distance to go, and the blaze is still anyone’s guess? Maybe the blaze can be seen from the HOB?

  56. James,
    That is what Ive been saying. I believe the HOB is the blaze. Tow different descriptions for the same thing IMO . But I believe WWH is “put in below the HOB”

  57. Seeker, I don’t disagree with a lot of what you said above. There was a time when the obsession was in control – not the lure in the form of treasure, but the need to find the answer. Since then, I have gradually been coming to terms with something that has been replacing the obsession. I don’t quite have the terminology at my disposal yet, so I’ll just call it an “awakening.” It is something that goes way beyond anything I’ve experienced in the past.

    • That’s great Vox.

      Allow me to say one more thing. You used ” ..coming to terms.. ”
      as if it’s a bigger deal than it really is. Trust me when I say The Location for me is more important than what was left there.

      But I also look at it like; a tune ya just can’t shake until you remember the name of the song… sure it bugs me, and sometime that tune just goes away before I remember the song’s name, which bugs me more, and other times it come back and starts all over again.
      But because there’s is no real reason for wanting to know the name of the song, that ear-worm is of no real concern… so I just hmm along.
      I look at the “challenge” {which is advertised with a lure} the same as that ear-worm. The Chase, on the other hand, is about the idea to influencing all to see what is outside, rather than picking up are favorite toy [ electronic or otherwise ] and waste the beauty and undiscovered that are out there… no lure required… no batteries needed.

      Take a step back and imagine you’re a kid in a packed vehicle traveling 1600 miles, at 30 mph, no a/c, no radio or handheld games or cell phone full of apps, GPS, a TV… LOL I mean, can you imagine you might have to look outside the vehicle, or better, stop along the way and smell a flower and kick a log over [ I can, because I’m old enough to have known it ]… Most searchers here pass by some of the most interesting places in the USA just to get to their target area, or never pay them any attention, with their faces glued to a cell phone to past the time while traveling. I dare say that many, or almost none, would saddle up with only a bedroll, a few candy bars and a rifle for some unknown length of journey or time… Nope we’re spoiled and want more more more… without enjoying what we see right in front of us.

      You found a scrap of tire in the middle of nowhere and concluded it had to be a clue… I read that and thought of a few guys in some 4×4’s, years back in time, having the fun of their lives running off-road style, blow a tire, leaving a piece of it behind [ unknowingly ] only to be found later and the founder pondering the fun those young bucks would have had those many years ago, when they themselves were younger.
      That’s the difference with being target fixated, lured by riches, obsessed with it all… and the actual idea behind it [the chase].
      IMO, of course.

  58. Marker – not clue. 😉

    I think we all see things differently, colored by our own life histories and desires. What motivates one person may not be the same thing that drives another. We can only speak for ourselves. There is no right or wrong way to look at the Chase, IMO, but we must deal with the consequences of our individual choices.

  59. Let’s for a minute to take away all of the Q&A’s and ATF comments and add *IF* Forrest said, that the entire poem cannot be moved around in any way, such as dropping or adding letters to the words in the poem and not twist words to mean something else and not move sentences or stanza’s around, could you find the treasure? I’d say yes.

    IF Forrest said that everything in the poem is natural, except for paths or roads, could one find the treasure? I’d say yes.

    If all that you had was the poem and a map and nothing else could one find the treasure now or way in the future? I’d say yes.

    Is the poem made for a regular guy such as a redneck with 12 children? I’d say yes. Is the poem overly complicated that only those with an higher education can figure it out? I’d say no.

    This takes me back to the poem being straight forward and in plain English will help the most in finding the treasure provided I have the correct wwwh nailed down. (knowing for sure and not guessed.) Yes, Forrest looked up words that mean the same thing in plain English which made him the architect of the poem and he is being vague but truthful at the same time.

    The poem is no more than a written map bringing up places and things to get you from one place to the next. The problem that I see is imagination is being over used and knowledge not as important. Knowledge of wwwh is through learning, without out it the starting point will never be found.

    Ask your self this, did you find wwwh by assuming its the right place because of a map that you looked at, assuming its the right place because of association to Forrest and the YS & NM areas having hot water? Did you do a through research of the first clue wwwh and why without any association?

    I can’t answer those questions for anyone except for myself. Just food for thought!

    Just Say’n

    • 1. Sure, only most of that was implied by fenn already.
      2. Ya have to wonder, for instance, what roads and paths were not around when fenn was 20 or younger, or even in his 30’s… I mean, look at a map of the time during the L&C north-west passage… lol Where are the roads and paths? What will it look like two hundred years from now. Big WhatIF here.
      3. Apparently, Nope. the same idea was asked. Also, How do you know ‘what’ map? For all we know ‘Forrest Fire” could have burnt the “right” map and only know of by the book.
      4 and 5.{4} Well, like some other questions you ask, this is a sure thing as well, fenn stated as much. to disagree you would be saying fenn was lying. {5} LOL guys with computer programs haven’t done any better than the average Joe… anyways, knowledge does not equate to edumacation. only where ya learn changes…

      Your comment ~ ‘Yes, Forrest looked up words that mean the same thing in plain English …’ I think is too simplified. Every word, from the smallest single letter word I thur treasures, have different usages. The word, cold has many more than I ever thought… each usage of a words meanings can have multiple usages, especially in a poem form.’ Such as “Take it in” .. when you get to the line NF,BTFTW the idea of each usage [take it in] changes the premise of what Not far, and of, but too far to walk can relate to. Yet the meaning of the words is/are not changed, only the reading of the intent, is different. Intent is part of interpretation.

      Your comment about imagination being over used is funny to me, to be honest. I have read many postings of solves and very little imagination, if any, was involved in most of them… other than they may see a river that looks like a croc or horseshoes all over the country side on a map.
      6. Mostly no, to that inquiry, but it doesn’t really matter, I don’t know what WWH is… but at least I’m honest enough to say it.
      7. I’m sure most here have done both sides of that coin. Is one right and one wrong? Personally, how can WWH be a type of stand-a-lone idea? Aren’t all the clues associated with the location of where the chest lays in wait, simply for the fact, we need to follow them precisely, as given to us, in the poem?

      LOL, I like these little Q&A’s exercises from searchers, It helps me see/examine what is not being asked… and at the same time… how much bias is involved with the type of inquires…. Don’t get me wrong, that alone is very helpful. It keeps me on my toes… so I don’t go haywire on a single thought or avenue to proceed.

    • CharlieM: since Seeker chimed in, I’ll follow suit:

      1. Agree with Seeker. Forrest said don’t mess with the poem. Moving stanzas, adding/subtracting letters, replacing the meanings of words with homonyms: all of that is messing with the poem.

      2. Poem and map is all I need. Much harder without the books and other communications, but still sufficient.

      3. The poem is theoretically solvable by the regular guy or gal, but not likely in practice.

      4. Poem is in plain English, but words have many meanings. Still, you won’t have to be a PhD English professor to uncover the correct meanings.

      5. “The poem is no more than a written map bringing up places and things to get you from one place to the next.” 100% agree.
      Don’t believe that WWWH requires uncommon knowledge. Nothing more obscure than knowing that George Washington was the first president, or that Lewis & Clark explored the Mountain West.

      6. “Ask your self this, did you find wwwh by assuming its the right place because of a map that you looked at…”: NO.

      7. “… assuming its the right place because of association to Forrest and the YS & NM areas having hot water?”: Not really. In the U.S., it is the simplest answer to “where warm waters halt” — an answer that a modestly educated child could come up with.

      • Zap, PoisonGharlie,
        Not being nit-picky, it’s east to say, all I need is “a map”

        But which one? And how do you know if you have the “right” map, do we need to search dozens of different types? Does any of those have some hint-able information in the book? Is GE along good enough?…

        By just say all I need is a map, doesn’t say anything at all. A USA map, A RM range map, state, city town, topo, watershed, waterways, what about national historical sites, NP map, NF map, a map of mars…

        Heck, Little Indy had a map of the RM’s.. right? The tftw map has less details of your average same map…right?
        The only real difference is shaded colored areas… Only some major roadways are present, no RXR tracks, no airports that I can remember, very few city /towns for a four state map, and the only reason we know Idaho and Utah are not involved with the chest is, strictly from an “ATF.” even though both states have shade locations on the tftw map. I dare say not all creeks, streams, tributaries etc. are there either. I can’t even count how man lakes are ‘not shown’ on the tftw map… As well as, I can’t make out any trails on that map… can you?

        LOL what are the dang details of a “right” map that has more details? Cuz the tftw map is horrible for details.. or there must be major hint[s] within it… making it the “right” map. Although that would suck for the searcher involve in the first three years of the chase… right?

        The poem and a map…. hmmm. No info for the “mountains N.of SF” or that “9 clues are needed to be followed.”
        GE mapping seems to allow all those detail when we click on the additional labels to pop up… but are they needed at all?

      • Hi Seeker: succinct reply — what is the only map that Forrest has ever mentioned? BUY IT. It’s a minor investment. I know it sounds too obvious, but sometimes the answer is staring you in the face.

  60. You still have botg charlieM.and too add, if having your wwwh you still have HOB which still eludes alot

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