Where Warm Waters Halt…Part Thirteen


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This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion continue…


621 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…Part Thirteen

  1. frank;

    I am sorry, I just can not follow your logic – from the last thread. If your logic makes sense to you – Go for it! I wish you the best – it is NOT necessary for me to understand your logic, I can barely understand my own – JDA

    • ” Go for it! I wish you the best ”
      River Bathing is Best.
      There’s nothing better than best and this means being #1.

    • I’ve been searching hot springs in all states and found the hot springs in Saratoga WY – Locals refer to it as the ***HOBO*** Pools

  2. I have searched Sinks Canyon with Thermopolis being WWWH, Kirwin area, the Ice Slough on the OR Trail, the Sweetwater entering the Pathfinder and flowing into the Fremont Canyon and another location I am going back to. The treasure is getting to see all these places or even knowing about them. Mr. Fenn has let me spend tourist dollars in WY!

    • there’s a lot of beauty in that spot Wyoming lover i went there and touched the water in sinks canyon where the water goes under it’s awesome to chase ones tail aint it in Wy montana colo and Nm. oh| to the rockies where beauty is all around us. come hither spring

  3. lol its ok JDA in time you will thanks for the best wishes – wish you the best also good luck

    • Thanks frank – “It’s all good” as one of my step-sons in prone to sayin’ – JDA

  4. FF says he stays 13 yo in his mind.Think like a 13 year old! FF says imagination is key!
    Everything with this treasure hunt runs into a quinkie dink! Google 1943 cartoon “imagine” and FF was 13 yo at the time.

  5. Is Where Warm Waters Halt – I still think Forrest rearranged letters –
    Start Here: Laramie. Home of Brown for sure.

    • There’s no “start here” with Home of Brown. Forrest has repeatedly said if you don’t have the first clue, you have nothing — and Home of Brown is not the first clue. “You may as well just home and play Canasta.”

    • You know most of the words in the poem have other words in them don’t you? Like ,
      Begin it where warm waters halt
      “Be in her arm”
      Or how about?
      Begin it where warm waiters halt?
      There’s so many words in the poem that have so many different words in them, some up to three words.
      But then again.
      “Don’t mess with my poem”
      I will give you a simple imaginative little solve.
      Great sand dunes! Medano Creek. Here is an unique example of times 2 warm waters halt. First the creek medano that is, keeps the sand dunes in check! Also medano creek comes water in surges! Okay ? And if you take the canyon down a bit you’ll find the BROWN capped Finch. (They nest on the canyon walls with mud nest) and if you were to find this special place lol it’s definitely no place for the MEEK! Bird crap everywhere! There’s 1000’s of nest! Nothing but heavy loads and water high! Nitrogen and phosphorus! Oh trust me you better look quickly down! DONT LOOK UP! Lol the blaze you ask???? Well the dark canyon walls are covered in a glowing whiteish blaze. Has anyone ever flown? If I was wanting to bleach my bones well hello. Now I ask do you have a imagination? And nobody is going to be brave enough to happen upon that chest. I love the thrill of the chase!

      • LOL – Did you seriously just ask me if I knew most words in the poem have other words in them??

      • anyone looking for Lewis and Clark should get this note.”boiling pine needles to make coffee will bring on Sudden cardiac arrest” Now get on your Google map. Or map quest. Start at PINE Colorado or pine needles Colorado. “There is only one;” no other pine in any other state. Take the pine valley canyon down, “driving” it’s too far to walk. Turn off put in is home of Brown”Buffalo Creek” from there it’s no place for the MEEK. Joseph MEEK. It is REDSKIN CREEK. The end is ever drawing nigh. you will see it’s close on the left. And since your driving along side the creek of course there’s no paddle up your creek. And you are traveling up the creek driving. So there’s just heavy loads “ton” water high ” welling” it is lake “Wellington”
        If you want to know the parking lot parking space drive around the lake and continue up “your creek” Buffalo Creek! Do a topo map all the way up to 10200 ft up Buffalo creek. See the womb? This was child’s play like he said! I don’t know if you call this tidbit or what lol TS Eliot said lol everyone already knows what he said. So you. Only way to get in there since Buffalo Creek Road is closed and has been for years is you have to go around on Road 50 I believe it is. So the path will not be direct for those who have no certainlyanyone looking for Lewis and Clark should get this note.”boiling pine needles to make coffee will bring on Sudden cardiac arrest” Now get on your Google map. Or map quest. Start at PINE Colorado or pine needles Colorado. “There is only one;” no other pine in any other state. Take the pine valley canyon down, “driving” it’s too far to walk. Turn off put in is home of Brown”Buffalo Creek” from there it’s no place for the MEEK. Joseph MEEK. It is REDSKIN CREEK. The end is ever drawing nigh. you will see it’s close on the left. And since your driving along side the creek of course there’s no paddle up your creek. And you are traveling up the creek driving. So there’s just heavy loads “ton” water high ” welling” it is lake “Wellington”
        If you want to know the parking lot parking space drive around the lake and continue up “your creek” Buffalo Creek! Do a topo map all the way up to 10200 ft up Buffalo creek. See the womb? This was child’s play like he said! I don’t know if you call this tidbit or what lol TS Eliot said lol everyone already knows what he said. So you. Only way to get in there since Buffalo Creek Road is closed and has been for years is you have to go around on Road 50 I believe it is. So the path will not be direct for those who have no certainly

          • You seem humble Jake. I will go ahead and dispose your request not to tell you where hid the chest. ” Boiling pine needles to make coffee will bring on sudden cardiac arrest!

          • I’d rather snooze and loose than drink booze while others confuse.

            You can keep your ruse to use while I refuse your muse.

            Choose those 9 clues to amuse to pay your dues.

            Your news does not light the fuse to get the chest but only the blues and a big bruise.

            Don’t abuse.

        • Your stupidity. a smart man would always welcome any knowledge! Grab every . A little bit of something is a lot better then nothing. But you’re rudeness and arrogance I find quite offending. If you feel like a big big man. In all honesty I feel as my duty as a human being to tell you, forgive sinners as you are one and smile at a homely girl. You closed minded peron

          • A smart person would not boast about what they think they know when they don’t have proof.

            Stupidity is only stated by those that think they have all the answers but don’t.

            Don’t feel bad William, there are some here that boast they know it all and where the treasure is and then hide behind IMO only to find out they know nothing.

            You’re not alone going in there,

          • anyone looking for Lewis and Clark should get this note.”boiling pine needles to make coffee will bring on Sudden cardiac arrest” Now get on your Google map. Or map quest. Start at PINE Colorado or pine needles Colorado. “There is only one;” no other pine in any other state. Take the pine valley canyon down, “driving” it’s too far to walk. Turn off put in is home of Brown”Buffalo Creek” from there it’s no place for the MEEK. Joseph MEEK. It is REDSKIN CREEK. The end is ever drawing nigh. you will see it’s close on the left. And since your driving along side the creek of course there’s no paddle up your creek. And you are traveling up the creek driving. So there’s just heavy loads “ton” water high ” welling” it is lake “Wellington”
            If you want to know the parking lot parking space drive around the lake and continue up “your creek” Buffalo Creek! Do a topo map all the way up to 10200 ft up Buffalo creek. See the womb? This was child’s play like he said! I don’t know if you call this tidbit or what lol TS Eliot said lol everyone already knows what he said. So you. Only way to get in there since Buffalo Creek Road is closed and has been for years is you have to go around on Road 50 I believe it is. So the path will not be direct for those who have no certainly

          • The treasures probably right below the castle which would be considered the blaze out there to one thing that stands out

  6. Maybe WWWH is a road in the Rockies. most are north of Santa Fe. On a map the big
    picture. WWWH the Sun. Like Going to the sun road in Glacier. Start at west entrance
    and head south on HWY. 2 I have been thinking about what GK video says. The
    New Mexico thing. Original idea just mountains and not rocky mountains. A treasure hunt
    for the locals of Santa Fe. Would mean it is in New Mexico in the mountains north of
    Santa Fe. That sure would narrow it down. The 80 YO. cant go helps some.
    What is a key word. I looked at are the stanzas Indian items and or they Indians.
    Is Paintings involved. Its a mystery….

    • If that’s what your looking for then just Google ” warm springs picnic area” and start at the halt -stop sign. And take the canyon down to Trout Lake.

      • And by the way that’s right on the border of Wyoming and Montana it splits the 1/3 mile stretch of road

          • I’m looking for a solve that’s legitimate in a 10″ x 10″ area. If solves are legitimate in four states I wouldn’t be able to go in confidence.

  7. The 45th Parallel – halfway point from the Equator and the North Pole (particularly near the north entrance of Yellowstone south of Gardiner MT)

    So I did it twice this summer but the second time I did it right. I stopped by the Boiling River which runs into the Gardiner river.. one foot was in scalding hot waters and the other was in cold water.. this is where I believe someone should begin it to understand why warm waters halts here it is 5,600ft elevation and well.. check it out for your self

    • Anyone searching for Lewis and Clark notes.
      Boiling pine needles to make coffee will bring on sudden cardiac arrest! Here is the big clue ppl. If you’re brave and in the wood! I have the answer!

        • anyone looking for Lewis and Clark should get this note.”boiling pine needles to make coffee will bring on Sudden cardiac arrest” Now get on your Google map. Or map quest. Start at PINE Colorado or pine needles Colorado. “There is only one;” no other pine in any other state. Take the pine valley canyon down, “driving” it’s too far to walk. Turn off put in is home of Brown”Buffalo Creek” from there it’s no place for the MEEK. Joseph MEEK. It is REDSKIN CREEK. The end is ever drawing nigh. you will see it’s close on the left. And since your driving along side the creek of course there’s no paddle up your creek. And you are traveling up the creek driving. So there’s just heavy loads “ton” water high ” welling” it is lake “Wellington”
          If you want to know the parking lot parking space drive around the lake and continue up “your creek” Buffalo Creek! Do a topo map all the way up to 10200 ft up Buffalo creek. See the womb? This was child’s play like he said! I don’t know if you call this tidbit or what lol TS Eliot said lol everyone already knows what he said. So you. Only way to get in there since Buffalo Creek Road is closed and has been for years is you have to go around on Road 50 I believe it is. So the path will not be direct for those who have no certainly!

          • Lookout Lake Wellington private area just they’re going to take the chest and go in peace

        • I can’t get there. Google it you’ll see every single word is a perfect match.
          Pine Colorado if your brave in the wood ” pine wood” take pine valley” Canyon down follow the poem word for word to lake Wellington. Drive around the lake to the parking area and hike up Buffalo Creek. Pull up a topo map of Buffalo Creek it ends at 10200 feet. And it looks like a woman’s womb on top of everything else

          • Boiling pine needles to make coffee will bring on cardiac arrest this is where warm Waters halt take the canyon down you go straight down from Pine to Buffalo Creek put in that the home of brown that’s Buffalo Creek they rent bicycles there will be no place for the meek? That’s Joseph meek. If you follow Buffalo Creek along the roadside on your map you will see it turned into Redskin Creek on the nigh and it’s very short the end is ever Drawing Near. there’ll be no paddle up your creek because you’re back on Buffalo Creek going Upstream driving. Just heavy loads and water High. You run right into Lake Wellington water Welling and ton being heavy loads. Drive around Lake and Park. Continue up your creek. That’s Buffalo Creek. Look at the topo map it should blow your mind you got to get there. Everything is too perfect.

        • William: repeating the same pine needle line 7 times on this page doesn’t make it more relevant due to the repetition. If your solution critically depends on this one line out of TTOTC, then it is quite simply wrong because the same solution cannot be derived from the poem alone.

          At a minimum, a good “general solve” must be constructable from just the poem and maps:

          “Emily, All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”

          Scrapbook 73:
          “I would like to reiterate: Please go back to the poem and look at maps for your answers.”

      • I think the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and over again but expecting different results.

  8. And he said I warned the path will not be direct for the one with no certainty but will be for the one with certainty whatever he said I don’t remember. But even that matches because it looks like Buffalo Creek Road goes all along drivable but it’s not it’s been closed for several years many years. You have to go around to Road 50 and go to the lake that way it is a direct path. For the one with certainty

    • And at the end of your exploring you will arrive where you first begin and know the place for the first time. Because when you’re up there you can look down and see everything

    • I can’t get there. Google it you’ll see every single word is a perfect match.
      Pine Colorado if your brave in the wood ” pine wood” take pine valley” Canyon down follow the poem word for word to lake Wellington. Drive around the lake to the parking area and hike up Buffalo Creek. Pull up a topo map of Buffalo Creek it ends at 10200 feet. And it looks like a woman’s womb on top of everything else

  9. I’m the only person out of 350,000 people that says where warm Waters halt is Pine Colorado or pine Valley Colorado, or pine needles Colorado. They all come up to the same place

    • William, the years are filled with solves like yours. Nowhere do you use the poem. We don’t need history lessons. If you were as smart as you think you are, you would be talking poem solve instead of places you’ve guessed on. There is a reason you are the only one in your area. It started with a guess and didn’t let up. Ridiculous, solve the poem and come back.
      We are all aware of what f has said, repeating it does not make a solve.

      where warm Waters halt take the canyon down you go straight down from Pine to Buffalo Creek put in that the home of brown that’s Buffalo Creek they rent bicycles there will be no place for the meek? That’s Joseph meek. If you follow Buffalo Creek along the roadside on your map you will see it turned into Redskin Creek on the nigh and it’s very short the end is ever Drawing Near. there’ll be no paddle up your creek because you’re back on Buffalo Creek going Upstream driving. Just heavy loads and water High. You run right into Lake Wellington water Welling and ton being heavy loads. Drive around Lake and Park. Continue up your creek. That’s Buffalo Creek. Look at the topo map it should blow your mind you got to get there. Everything is too perfect.

      It is all guessing, if you cannot see that, you will never learn. Before you call people stupid, maybe you should not prove your point so perfectly like this ridiculous attempt at a solve. If you say you’ve been at this for a whole week now, I would believe you. You are not as smart as you think. So by all means, continue to try to convince us. We be not too smart eater.

  10. Yew needles are toxic but pine needles are not. You can make tea with them but I can’t vouch for the flavor. I understand they have vitamin C but no calories. That said I only googled it. If this is correct then explain why the sudden cardiac arrest comment is worth repeating over and over and over again.

    • IMO – He was trying to emphasize that warm waters (blood) halt when you have a cardiac arrest and that this FF quote he keeps repeating directs us to the starting point of TTOTC because it was the pine needles that caused the cardiac arrest, therefore the beginning must be someplace with “Pine” in the name, etc.

      Please do not confuse my response to mean that I am placing one iota of belief into this solve…I was just answering your inquiry.

      Well, back to Google Earth and studying topo’s of Lake Wellington… 🙂

  11. William. Nice that you’re willing to share your solve. It’s good to have confidence in your solve too. But you’ve lost me, just not seeing this fit. But maybe that’s why the chest is still out there.

    Why haven’t you gone boots on the ground?

    There is only wwwh in a far stretch of the imagination tied to this?

  12. Just like the word ‘below’ in the HoB line, I don’t know if enough importance is being placed on the word ‘halt’. Just finding random places with warm water is not good enough imo.

    • Aaron, have you shown the poem to any kids?

      I don’t think randomness has a place in a good solve.

      As always, IMO.

      • I have shown it to kids. I have kids that have searched with me. They haven’t come any closer to figuring it out.

        While the kid statement might imply the use of imagination is needed, I don’t think it can be taken literally.

  13. I think the kids may have an advantage thing is overblown and can also be spun a number of different ways. It seems it’s generally thought of as being kid related (kids books or whatever), but kids do a lot of things that adults no longer can that are not simpler. I’m thinking math without calculators or library research for reports, but I’m sure there are other examples.

    • FMC;

      Size matters. Maybe where Indulgence is “In there” is a low confined space that a child could get into more easily than an adult. – Just a thought – JDA

    • Good point FMC. My 13 year old likes math and I ran some numbers by him as it relates to the poem. He has heard a number of my solution ideas, and has searched with me. He said “You know, I think this is your best idea about the poem solution yet”.

    • When the question was presented to fenn at a book signing, he answered [in part] kids are more agile.. I think the word was.. Folks should review the Q&A for the exact wording.

      My point is only an idea that relates to the poem; “Look quickly down..”
      We have in the poem “alone”, “in there”, “In the wood” “It’s no place for the meek” maybe even “take it in”… lots of ‘in’.
      Then we have some ATF [ related or not depends on how one reviews the ideas ] that seem to have the same ideas. Leave your search partner in the car? Two trips to your solve? Is there a reason we should think about “in” as where a kid would have and advantage [size, youth, daring or curious etc { most kids would roll a rock or log, climb a tree, scurry into a place, long before most adults, line of thinking}]… has JDA also suggested. “Look quickly down” could imply ‘bend over’ or ‘crawl’ at place only suitable for one. [kids idea of a secret hideout].

          • I dont think it means only one can fit. I think “I have gone alone in there” is talking about 1/2 of something. I think it means I halve, as in the pies that grandma broke in half for FF when she knew he didnt have any money. I think that story about FF and the pies, is a story within a story. I think he is talking about starting his career of discovering treasures when he had no money. He was able to make a living with some street smarts and the help of Grandma/Mother Nature. IMO

        • Duck too quickly ya may git goosed. Could be why we leave are search partner in the car…long nose nick won’t mind.

  14. Possibly look quickly down through a key hole size with one eye. Follow the other directions in the poem to get there. Look through the hole in the hat or pie. Break it in half?

  15. I am just leaving Yellowstone and know that a lot of solves involve this area. I personally think it is somewhere near Hebgen Lake or North Yellowstone/ Gallatin Forest area. The reason for my post is because of something I noticed this week that I couldn’t ignore due to how odd it was. It didn’t occur to me that it could be a clue until my fiancé said as we were leaving the park that “it’s weird that the frost halts at the same exact elevation around the park, on each day.” My heart dropped obviously when I heard her say the word halt. She knows little to nothing of this hunt, hence why I didn’t check my 2 solves while we were here. However I’ve never read about a the theory I’m about to script, that you’ve all already probably connected. I’m not a meteorologist, but I will say that she was correct in her observation. It just never occurred to me that it could be “where warm waters halt” until she used that word. Snow storms came and went this week. Frost crept in and I even have odd photos of the exact altitudes at different locations where snow fell or where clouds began. All around the same and all around 9,000 feet. Well within his parameters of 5,000-10,200 feet……. someone will surely immediately write this off with a decent argument but the bottom line is this…. the frost line was about the same (in terms of altitude) every single day, for the duration of the day. Sometimes even being a distinct line of white trees and then green trees. I would word it “where cold waters halt” but clearly you could assume the opposite and work your way up. I feel that WWWH is a specific location, but it’s worth noting that I certainly noticed on this trip a different way to factually view where warm waters halt within and around Yellowstone. And it also fell within his parameters. Both in terms of being within the elevation limits and being “wet.” I’ve got much more information on this but won’t divulge just yet. I want other people’s take. If you could see the crystal clear line of where the frost from the clouds and changing weather stopped you would absolutely be able to envision this line as a starting point for “where the warm waters halt.”

    • Last week I wanted to post some information about the frost but I didn’t. I have to say yes frost and fog are significant.

    • Zach,
      What I like about your post is that it is unique. Not rehashing the same old stuff that has been said a million times. We have a house near Yosemite that is just below the snow line. That doesn’t mean we never get snow. But, there is an agreed upon altitude where snow is expected to fall. Nature doesn’t always cooperate, but its kinda the same idea as your frost line. New ideas are always nice to read. Your idea reminded me that I have always been curious about the comment in that story about Skippy landing his plane at Hebgen Lake were nobody had ever landed a plane before because of the altitude. I’ve thought that through a few times wondering if it was significant. Keep the creative ideas coming!

      • Zach very good. Look at one of my solves with frost. This is my post on MW.

        Yes I believe in that the waters are being commanded to halt (like a jolt). I feel like something is closing it off and redirecting the warm waters. A dam can well be the starting point below the Brown trout (the mother ship). Top water is warmer so the trout go below deep into the pocket holes where it’s cooler in the hot summers. Just when the frost comes and when the melting of the snow in the mountains brings down the cold water down from the mountains into the lower streams and rivers. Fish feel comfortable and Browns like the water temps cooler. When it does cool they travel up stream to spawn (which is taking place in very soon. The “it” hasn’t happen yet but soon.) The bugs start hatching out of their eggs and swarm the lakes and rivers. They have no way to jump the waterfalls so some are below the falls too. Some of the dams have windows and ladders to provide the fish to jump up to get to the higher waters. Some of these ladders were made of wood in the beginning and now they are concert. I know where those warm waters are stopped. There is just one that should fit the poem. IMO that would be Hebgen Lake but pp have searched that area. I think we are missing something.

        One of my solves anyway.

        Some thing to think about is frost covers the ground before day break. A history of air temperatures and the recent disappearance of snow tells the story.

        Also like to mention Brown Trout is capitalized if it is a tile of something.

  16. WWWH by your description is anywhere in the Rocky Mountains at or around 9000 feet.
    Your solve then makes HOB the first clue as anywhere at or around 9000 feet is the starting point. FF made it clear that the first clue is WWWH. Lots of area to cover in the Rockies at your frost line.

  17. Zach, isn’t the frost line at a different altitudes with every weather change? So how does that have any solve-value? Unless the clue or hint is that WWH simply means ‘altitude’ but not any specific altitude. Just ‘Begin at some altitude’. Or perhaps some other hint identifies the solves’ altitude. Seems kind of remote to me but I wait to hear other opinions.

  18. I just received my copper art piece titled ” where warm waters halt”?
    I think Dan is onto something here as it depicts the perfect WWWH!
    Beautiful work of art..

      • Hi Clearly Clueless,
        Dan…. Dan and Frances Hedblom of Copper Elements. Check out the new post called “Copper Art”.. He has created a piece of copper art depicting his idea of WWWH.
        He’s only making 80 and each one is numbered. I got # 19..

  19. WWWH is any high point in the Rockies where precipitation falls that has a canyon that leads down to HOB. If you think brown trout is part of the equation that makes HOB pretty wide open. If Brown is a person than this narrows the search area dramatically. Unfortunately their are other Browns to consider. Having bought in on the Madison River area I have felt I found each and every clue and walked straight to the blaze, of course, no luck. Like Dal I still think Mad Riv is a solid area to search.

    • Jack, I totally agree! That’s my next area to search. It all fits into that area if you ask me.

  20. He said we need to simplify and use logic?
    Wwh = Lake
    Take “IT” in the canyon down = Avalanche
    Avalanche lake.
    As much as Forrest always uses the phrase “in a word” and everyone already knows MT.Brown is below avalanche lake. Any thoughts?

    • William,
      My WWH has not been a lake until recently. I currently have 3 solves Im working on. Im NOT leaning toward WWH being a lake. But, I do have one solve involving a lake. I find it interesting that several dictionaries state that a river, stream or creek is flowing water. But dictionaries state that a lake is water that is not flowing. So if you are looking at definitions, this might help you.

      • I figure warm waters are rivers, creeks, flowing waters. So most temporary stop or halt in Lakes reservoirs. So I get lake, and when a Canyon comes down , it’s called an avalanche.
        So I take the word Lake and take it “lake” in the canyon down. Lake avalanche. Lol

      • Butterfly = Flutterby.


        Follow Rainbow = Rain FL ow = Rainflow.

        Follow rainflow.

    • William,

      It doesn’t matter what any of ‘my’ theories are… I kinda like this thought process you presented. I like it mostly because you used ‘take IT in’ slightly different then many chat about.
      A couple things catch my attention though. What gave you the idea that a lake is where WWH [ I have a simple thought as to why, but I like to hear your reasoning out of all the other possibles ]. The same can be asked about ‘Brown” as a name.

      Example only; WWH dealing with glaciers… [BROWN PASS — Named for John George (Kootenai) Brown, the first superintendent of Waterton Lakes National Park,] and ‘just’ HLnWH as Watertone Lake, idea. He only used a simple compass to navigate from Cal. to Waterton Lake, hence creating Brown pass. [ending point of the pass in or about 1877]

      We can probable have many different interpretations of WWH that mention something named Brown or reference to a name Brown, and in any given state. However, you made a good example of how ‘Avalanche’ works [in a word] for a possibility of how we learn the first clue…
      lol even for a guy who hates the idea of names of anything being used to solve the poem.
      Titles given, symbolic mentioning, terms used to portray a place… sure… actual names? LOL it hurt to think of all the combinations we can, and have for the most part, thought of.

      • I just simplified. The simple solution would be lake . But here’s the kicker. The “it” in take it in the canyon down. Is instructions to take your wwh solution and take it in the canyon down. Combining the two together. I’m not saying for sure or running to a solve. But logic and simplicity says the answer to wwwh in a word is simply lake and the next phrase specifies the lake. fresh eyes and a new way of thinking to find the correct solve could be the exact path I’m on in my thinking but diff local. For instance. Wwh = lake
        Canyon down= canyon
        Too far to walk= drive
        Now Google ” canyon lake drive” your near Cody across the street from the resivoir. Buffalo bill

        • The poem doesn’t use the word “stop”. In a lake, does the water
          stop, then move again? A small child would say “no.”

          As always, IMO.

          • That is true tighterfocus. The dictionary does say a lake is water that is not flowing, but that doesnt mean it isnt moving. I dont think water molecules stop unless they freeze. Freeze is a synonym for halt. Although I have one solve involving a lake, my more focused two solves do not involve a lake.

          • Flutterby: even frozen, water doesn’t stop moving. Movement depends on scale. People are hung up on water itself halting. That is not the right thought, in my opinion.

          • IMO – A lake is a temporary stopping point for water that flows into it. I say temporary because the water can evaporate and become a part of the water cycle to then be released as some form of precipitation, etc. You get big picture, right TF?

          • Bowmarc,

            While evaporation happens all the time, and even with moving water or snow/ice… not all lakes are completely land locked. Many lakes have a drainage or outlet. Is this what is meant by halt as a temporary change – stooping point?
            The level of the waters [ fed by other sources; streams, creeks, snow-melt and or rain ] raises the level of the surface to an outlet [ a seasonal drainage ].

            Another type of system [ if you will ] can be two lakes. One drains into another, only connected by a drainage creek in between, and seasonal as well, giving the temporary movement / halting of the waters from one lake to another…

            It could be why we should wait till the mud tries, or No paddle, as to, no water in the creek [drainage], and now that drainage creek is nothing more than; a narrow passage, a smaller depiction of a canyon?

            LOL a big picture on a smaller scale…

          • @ Seeker: I agree with your commentary. Mine was meant as just one example of how water can be viewed as halting in a lake.

          • Yep Bowmarc,
            I get it… I was just thinking how a standing body of water [ a lake ] could still be temporarily stationary.. but still not really ‘stopped”

        • I don’t think this thread was intended to put holes in anyone’s solves i liked reading yours William but that elevation is covered with snow so be wise to any one looking into it every thing is worthy of a thought Im here in colo there is a pine ridge i have ran across in the past in more then colo my problem with creeks is once your in them its hard to see any thing that needs to be seen. good thinking is never a down fall ty

      • Seeker
        Remember FF ball of string? Do you know about the big Brown wood ball plug?

          • I was there this summer and saw that. The walk up to the dam from the other side is amazing and there are tons of little hidey areas.

          • I gotta stop ya right there. The plug is meant to stop the flow of water, right? That’s a dam… WHHH is not a dam, regardless of the /a lake as a possible clue reference.

        • at wild bill dam in wy or something like that i got pics of that plug somewhere seeker the elev has to be worked on around that area thermopls has warm water ive touched it with my own hand.

          • There are also lots of YouTube videos on the dam and the dam plug is included. Plus the Dam guide is a dam nice fellow!

      • Seeker,
        I also question whether names of places are used in solving the poem. However; we know that FF as a boy, was very interested in Lewis & Clark’s journey and they used names of geographical features. I don’t think (but could be wrong), that they used town or city names. Osborne Russell used some geographical features I believe, but he also used descriptions of places in his own words (like an illustrated picture). I wonder if FF may have used one of the techniques from the early explorers he was so interested in.

        • I would think along the same lines, flutterby.
          Not unlike butterfly [the name] to flutterby a depiction.

          Should a place be name as [ hypothetically ] Grandfalls… yet because there might be two waterfalls, maybe even side by side, the word “twin” could be an idea of what we see vs. the name.
          If a mountain area, from a distance, is shaped like a beaver, but named after the person who came across it… could Brown represent the shape we imagine, rather than a name of the person [ this case, capitalize as a hint for a give title, an animal species].
          Names change from time to time. I mean, 100 years or more ago many of the landscape had different Indian tribe names for the same place, change from Spanish and French to English…

          In 500 yrs, a 1000 yrs… would you rather rely on centuries of research into what was named, by who, when, and/or who that person represented as a tribe or country etc. or rely on what you may see in-front of you? Especially when we are told this will be done mostly by imagination, and imagination is more important than knowledge [ with the idea of the landscape in mind ]

          I think men like Russel or Meek could have a good chance of figuring this out, just as well as, someone 100 yrs or more down the road. I have asked the question in the past [related to Agent’s 777 Q&A] ~ What details is fenn talking about?
          When kids [ who’s imaginations are still in high gear because of their age ] looks at something like GE… what do they see first? My guess is, it’s not the names that are added later [Adults now automatically look for those]… but the landscape itself… shapes, natural borders {rivers for example in any given area}. etc. Not unlike the idea of a marble shower wall… or the marble stone itself, line of thinking.

    • I have looked at Avalanche Lake and Creek in Glacier previously. Primary problem is that Avalanche Creek parking area off Going-To-The-Sun Rd is only 3600 ft in elevation. To get over 5000 ft, one would have to take a serious hike, one that feels too involved for Mr Fenn to do twice in an afternoon. Further, if you don’t have a specific location to head to, how would you ever find the box?

      If you like the idea, you probably need to proceed up to Logan Pass, where all points are over 7K ft.

      A couple of options there: Hidden Lake overlook; Oberlin Falls, south side of Cannon Mountain, high line trail.

      But again, without a coordinate, how do you know where to go?

      Background info passed along as food for thought.

  21. Too far to walk=drive, which =road. That seems to me what you take in the canyon down.
    We must go down and then put in BHOB, and continue down NPFTM.
    If the treasure is above 5000 feet, than WWWH must be well above that elevation, as FF did not go up our creek very far.

    • Yes like road.
      2201 s treasure chest drive,
      That’s how I’m using drive for the tftw quote

    • When you put in below HOB like park and get out for boot’s on the ground I would suggest that there’s no place for the meek that you should be looking for.
      I feel this line in the poem is simply stating, look you came this far, you have to be brave trust yourself no second guessing. And head up the creek on the nigh. Straight from your hob.

    • Just Google these words to see it.
      Canyon lake drive Wyoming
      This road should be highlighted in red now. It’s a better example

  22. I just do not believe that FF would have given us the name of a street. He is more creative than that. IMO

    • Ya never know. Besides, that was just an example of a new way of thinking. He is big on Cody and wild Bill and the museum there in Cody and everything. I’m thinking when I randomly was googling those words for every state in the search, that when it landed across the street from the wild Bill state park. This is crazy. What a quinkie dink! But only FF knows!

      • William,

        I’m not sure how long you’ve been engaged in all this, but “streets” solves line of thinking have been a round for a long time. It’s not a new idea, new way at all. IronWill [ a searcher ] is the first one that comes to mind with a solve involving W. Yellowstone and streets. Many other solves have used streets within there clue’s.
        I don’t think fenn is modern in thought, to be honest… I mean he was thinking down the road millenniums… lol will we even have streets then? The only real premise we have to work with [ at this point of uncertainty ] is that the RM’s are still moving and will have an impact on the clues. Which [ in my personal opinion ] might be saying, Civilization may not be expected to have a major impact of the area the chest lays in wait… roads, buildings etc.

        • You remember in the book when FF talks about stopping behind a tree and watching the cars bounce by hitting the potholes and splashing water on the people walking by? Anyway have you found “the potholes in Wyoming? Near grand Teton. There is a solve that leads to the ” “forget me not” lake. That is if “the potholes” where WWH.
          Google. “Forget- me-not Lake Wyoming” also Google “the potholes Wyoming”

          • I agree that the potholes are significant. But the poem has to take you to your solve. What in the poem tells you that is WWH. The poem contains the answers. If you randomly pick a place on a map, that isnt following the poem.

          • William,
            There is no absolute way I can say names are not involved. I’m only using the information of many ATF’s over 8 years to conclude their lack of possibility.

            For example; Your pothole is great without names. The idea is, a lake being created by the land being worn, eroded, pressured downward in the normal course of time in any given area.
            Hence; leaning more to the idea:
            “a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help” rather than a simplistic idea that anyone could read names on a map, nor why it would take fenn 15 years just to wiggle around names on any given map, when writing the poem.

            IMO, the idea of looking for, a name related first clue, is how the dart tossing hunt kicked into high gear. Many need a name of a place to start, rather than a ‘reason’ for what WWH is in a location, or any clue for that matter.

            I think your starting out as easy as possible in thought, rather than ‘trying to simplify’ something that is complex and requires thinking the right thoughts, idea.

            Just saying…

  23. Rain water is considered warm waters. And rain waters always halt in potholes. And there is “The Potholes Wyoming” I’m just still trying to figure out WWWH.

    Did Forrest Fenn say there’s no anagram in the poem?

    • There’s a place named Pothole NM In Sagebrush county.
      There’s a place called Potholes CO.. LOL go figure… but it’s closed on Sunday.
      In MT there are places called; Great Plains Prairie Potholes; Bozeman, Billings, Helena, Great Falls… Their more natural in nature, been around for a bit longer than most places [ Glacial period ] and should be around for a little while longer ].

      I see how you’re coming up with name related idea to clues… and at the same time I can come up with many many ideas, using the same premise for any of the four states…
      Another idea of WWH [ snow, water related ], Never Summer Mountains CO… right?. Although the end of that, might be drawing nigh, as well.

      How do we narrow down [nail down] a single idea, nevertheless a single place… without guessing all the way through?

  24. Seeker, I believe that some of what you just said is right on track. The narrow it down part gets difficult with HOB. Trout, person, place. FF said all you need is a good map. No history lesson on a map, no trout planting schedule on a map, just names of places.

    • Jack,

      I think hoB might be more of a title or symbol.. still possibly a name.. but not so much a given name, line of thinking. Well, I guess all names are given names… What I mean is, I don’t think a place is relevant to the person it was named after. For example, I’m of the notion no place for the meek refers to [in part] the CD [continental divide] or to mean ‘the back bone of the RM’s’ idea. I also think the line can represent a section of the CD within, home of the brave, or the USA section of the RM’s… where are nation’s symbol is the Bald Eagle.

      When this all started, we didn’t know much more than “in the mountains N. of SF.” Later, told the RM’s. Even later, told within four states. IF we had not been told those ATFs could the poem tells us? I think it would have to.. right?
      No more Canada, Utah, Idaho etc. States the only have the CD within them, idea. MY point is; fenn eliminated 1/2 the search area, and many take it for granted that those eliminating factors have nothing to do with clues… I think they do. Reading the poem, with the suggestions above, does exactly the same as the ATF’s ~ it places us in the USA [ not in Canada at all ] and places us in the four remaining stated [ no Utah or Idaho ] and in one particular state. But even the name of that state is really not ‘needed’ to be known of… In theory anyways, and looking at the poem on a larger scale.

      So, If NPFTM could refer to a section of the CD in the US, then it’s possible; Put in below hoB could reference Canada’s symbol of the brown beaver, not unlike our bold eagle the represents ‘the home of the brave”… So technically and on a map [ with no mapping names involved, names that can change pretty much an time and many times over many years ‘down the road’ ] we should be [ at this point in the poem and this theory ]…
      ~ On the CD, below Canada’s border, USA side… Where possibly WWH is, in Glacier NP < on a map. And possibly relates to the "cold" reference in the poem, or Warm Waters, as liquid, halt being liquid.
      "learn[ing] where/what WWH is"?? by the information in the poem?

      I just don't see the need for the simplistic idea that names on a map is a must. Seeing a name on any map/GE label doesn't require imagination, geography knowledge of any kind, nor any interpretation. IMO using names on a map, 'to only match' to places is over-simplifying the clues, and not much more than tossing a dart and hope for the best. To be honest, I'm a bit dumbfounded that many only look for something that could be WWH without considering the other clues and non-clues parts of the poem to give us its reference / location or even why this location.

      The one thing I know about blueprints is, you have to build from/with the material given to create what is supposed to be. Basically saying; you can't connect item A to item B without knowing what C D E etc. are for. Hence the idea we should be able to decipher the clue's 'references' at home, and marry them [ join, couple, place together, build from ] to "A" place on a map… Certainty of the location beforehand, idea. BUT, in this line of thinking, there seem to be a catch… we may still need to "precisely" follow the clues, botg, to get to the blaze and hopefully the hidey spot.

      I'm reading the poem as two folds… information that gets us to a location [using any and all parts of the poem] and 9 specific "references" to be followed when on site. { all the above is just an example of the method } Yet, there is a good reason why this location could work… thinking alone the lines; What if there are no legal questions…

      LOL… my novel for today.

  25. Seeker, If I find it, their will be no legal question as I will only tell Forrest if he is still around and keep the secret. I am afraid that maybe this has already happened.
    As for your over simplify theory, I have to disagree. I think that the map has WWWH list by name and HOB is the key. FF claims that some people have been within 200 feet. Having been out there, once you get to the blaze it gets very difficult as you have to find the exact spot. I thought that would be the easy part, but not so. At my first solve I did not find it but I just new it was nearby, I searched a 5000 square foot area for hours and still felt when I left that I missed it. Going back to that spot again next summer. Have a couple more I like as well.

    Keeping it simple…LOL

    • Jack,

      No problems if you think you have most of it solved. My only point is, sure, everything has a name on a map…
      If WWH refers to a lake [ for example ] virtually all lakes have been named. So i’m curious how you pulled a ‘name’ out of the poem?

      I have one idea for just that line of thinking… example; “AS I have gone”… or the idea of a mirror image, ISA lake.
      I’m not digging the idea, however, the poem kinda give the impression of opposites. Someone went some where in stanza 1 and in stanza 5 someone is leaving [opposites] New and Old [opposites]
      Waters vs. water – Not far vs. too far – warm vs. cold, the poem seemingly going from past to presents [opposites] etc. and fenn talks about mirrors a bit as well opposites. So that’s one idea… How do you see a name?

      • Seeker, seeing Jack’s post where he said “the map has WWWH list by name and HOB is the key.” I’d gather the easy way to garner a name from that would be Brown(s) Lake.

        • LOL that’s my point, Fun.
          There’s a brown lake in all four states… I dare say there’s one in almost all the states.

          • I’m m not saying one of a kind, but IF we need another clue to figure it out… Shouldn’t it be one location, rather that many in all four states?

          • Seeker, no, I don’t think so.

            If you were the one crafting this clue filled poem would you use a one of a kind named place which could be easily obtained by reading the only capitalized word (Brown) in mid sentence? Or would you go deeper and craft the poem where that word (Brown) shows up in all four states just like wwh(s) probably do, canyons do, put ins do, meek places do, creeks do, heavy loads and water high(s) do and blazes do?

            You asked Jack where to find the name for wwwh from the hoB angle. It’s a different question to ponder if that’s the strategy f used. We can only try to reason that out. To me, It’s not a problem if there’s many lakes in all states named Brown(s) Lake.

            The question is…can you figure out a mechanism that f could have used to hide which Brown(s) Lake (using Jack’s example of a hoB keyed name for wwwh) from all 4 state possibilities?

            I can, the first stanza secretly hides the correct immediate geographical area to the correct wwwh and later confirmed by the naming of the correct wwwh in the hoB clue. That would be one way to hide the correct Brown(s) Lake and not worry that searchers couldn’t figure out the correct one. Or, worry that it’s too obvious that you named it in your poem. Success on both counts, imo.

          • FD, your example is a good one. It could work for various HoB’s, though I’m not sold on a Brown lake. If HoB was referring to a lake named Brown wouldn’t the actually home of this Brown lake be a much larger area? To me it seems like WWWH could be a smaller geographical location than HoB, but dealing with the area that needs to be big enough to hold a lake, like a National Forest, for example may make it a little hard to find the exact put in spot.

            If HoB was the lake itself it would seem like an odd way to word it. Wouldn’t he just say ‘put in below Brown’?

          • Aaron, good points.

            I just used the hypothetical example of a lake because Seeker used a lake when he said “If WWH refers to a lake [ for example ] virtually all lakes have been named. So i’m curious how you pulled a ‘name’ out of the poem?”.

            I agree when you said “If HoB was referring to a lake named Brown wouldn’t the actually home of this Brown lake be a much larger area?”.

            I think one could find a hoB that replicates this example where that hoB isn’t just the lake itself. It could include the environment that immediately surrounds the lake and therefore provides to the ones that “home” there. It may be important to focus on the question of who or what homes there.

          • I agree FD, don’t know that HoB could be a large area but agree with your points of focusing on what has a home in an area.

            Since this is a WWWH thread I’d like to add that I also believe that it has to do with something that has a home in an area near WWWH. Hence searchers only getting the first few clues and getting close. I know this has been talked about enough on here but just tying it in to our HoB discussion. I mimicked the entire poem for an Easter hide for our kids. Despite the length of the poem, the search area still fit into about 300 feet. It is easier to do in a poem than one might think.

            Practicing writing poems for an area is a good way to try to figure out how FF would do it IMO.

      • Very awesome, Aaron. Cool to hear you made a neat poem with clues on a smaller scale for your kids.

        Interesting to hear that it was rather easy for you, I haven’t tried that.

        I think the example we all talked about can translate to many of the other possibilities that searchers come up with for hoB. I also feel the discussion lends itself to the wwwh thread as there’s always that possibility that wwwh and hoB are connected somehow.

  26. Seeker, I see lots of names and places and locations on the map, not just lakes. Warm water comes in many forms and halts in many places. I see the secret is to narrow them down by process of elimination taking it down a canyon to a place on the map that hints of Brown. I know, seems to simple and a lot of work, but I have all winter to mess with it.
    See you in the Rockies next summer.

      • When I read the discussions on wwwh I always go back to the HWY20 and Boundary street. Then I hit the end where it halts. I can take in the canyon down by elevation down going north. Then Just before the elevation gradually goes up again I have a choice to either go right or left.
        (Flyhighway documentary. Flywater book ideas and other compelling facts). Both of my choices right or left on Canyon can work. But I haven’t had BOTG yet.

        My mind keeps going back to this idea after reading everyone discussion on the subject wwwh because it starts to get to complicated in my head.

      • Water halts when it freezes, at 32 degrees…Latitude is measure in degrees, 32 degrees Lat. is border of Texas, NM and Old Mexico at El Paso, Rio Bravo River which is the major river we call the Rio Grande in Rockies 1885 miles long and starts near Telluride, Co.

        The exact words Where Warm Waters Halt only existed IMO one place, described since the 1940’s in all New Mexico Fishing Proclamations as the place on rivers where Warm water species fish regulations apply (Bass, Catfish, Walleye etc) and cold water species fish regulations begin, in 2012 this information was shared by many locals as WWWH and Forrest lived by those regulations most of his life when he went fishing in NM.

        Many will argue for hot springs, and other places of similar note, as for me, it’s pretty simple, there are two layers of this poem, one of them is geographical, one is more sublime.


        • Tommy, WWH cant possibly be related to fishing water temperature because only a fisherman or someone reading these blogs would know that. That info isnt in the poem and the poem is supposed to be all we need. IMO

        • Tommy G,

          The Rio Bravo, (Rio Grande) does not start near Telluride, it starts just SE of Canby Mountain somewhat South of Silverton, CO which is no where near Telluride.

          Also have never heard of the locals referring to the Rio Bravo as wwwh, it is referred only as having warm water. The upper 1/3 portion of the river is very much cold.

          Maybe you should read what Wikipedia says about the Rio Grande, (Rio Bravo), all of the way through. It would help to get your facts straight.

          Just Say’n

        • At least 2 layers, in various parts of the poem.

          This reminds me of onions . . . which reminds me of crying.
          (That’s a hint, folks.)

          As always, IMO.

        • Then “ringing” might conceivably be possible (I believe that a
          ring should precede conception).

          I think many of us have seen ice crystals, even though not all frozen water is crystalline.

          The poem is not about frozen water.

          The above lines of this message comprise part of my opinion.

  27. Tim,
    Even if the molecules are locked in a crystalline structure, they are still moving, but that movement is not visible to the naked eye. However, I suppose we could get by with the definition for halt being an inteription in activity. But, Im not even certain of that.

    • Hard to imagine that movement of water molecules would make a difference in finding WWWH. A comprehensive knowledge of geography will help more than chemistry.

    • I understand the molecules are still moving, however the waters would not be moving, if they changed from a liquid to a solid. I am not talking about freezing, either.

      • Well, I have to display my stupidity Tim – Other than freezing, how can water turn from a liquid to a solid? My science teacher missed that one – JDA

          • But is it solid or still liquid, but trapped in the chrystaline walls? Just askin’ ’cause I don’t know – JDA

        • Quartz is the second most common mineral on the earth. A majority of quartz is formed in magmatic volcanism however a sizeable minority of quartz precipitates from hot mineral water ie it “grows from water but is a stone in the end. There have been several programs on Nat. Geo , Discovery channel “the Crystal Caves” with quartz crystals 1 meter thick and 5 meters long growing in chambers of Pegmatite mines. You can look it up on line.

          • If nothing else it’s very imaginative. Seems to be some pretty specific knowledge that I would hardly believe the majority of Forrest target audience, everyone, would be thinking about.

          • If nothing else it’s very imaginative. Seems to be some pretty specific knowledge that I would hardly believe the majority of Forrest target audience, everyone, would be thinking about.

          • Quartz, jasper,flint, agate these are all different forms of Silicon dioxides that were used by ancient peoples to knap tools and weapons. This is pretty common knowledge. This is why I ask earlier about Forrest’s first arrow head and what material it was made from.

          • Tim: Forrest’s first arrowhead is pictured in TFTW on a couple pages. Don’t have my book with me, but I recall the color being an opaque cream/sandy orange. So likely flint.

        • Does this answer your question? No I do not believe you are stupid. I have followed your posts for some time. You were probably aware of this on some level, it just wasn’t at the front of your thoughts. I believe the poem is very specific and precise. If we see only general information that is our problem not the poem’s. We need to change our thinking in order to succeed. I am willing to put this out there because there are many places north of Santa Fe that have crystal or quartz in their names. If many people follow this clue one may succeed, good for them!

          • So, “Begin it where there is a quartz outcrop, and take it in the canyon down” (Interp.) This seems pretty general. Where in the poem do you get information that will lead you to the correct quartz outcrop? If none, then you are throwing darts – JMO – JDA

          • Not a quartz outcrop for example try Quartz mountain as a name or Quartz as the name of a Ghost town. The area identifier is later in the poem and is the “word that is key”. When properly interpreted the word narrows it down to only one place in the Rocky Mountains. I have not found the treasure , I’ve looked twice. Could I be wrong ,sure. One thing I’m not doing is throwing darts.

          • JDA tell you what , I will send my complete solve for your perusal. You can check it out. If it helps you fine I have no problem with that. If you don’t like it don’t use it.

          • Hi Tim;

            I have one hard-and-fast rule – I do not read other peoples solves. But thanks anyway. JDA

          • Tim – thanks for the discussion, new ideas! So your idea about mineral hydration as wwwh is interesting, I’m not totally sold, but here are a couple more rabbit holes you maybe should look at: FF was familiar with archaeology, and an avid collector of stone tools…chert is another form of micro-crystalline silicon dioxide. Another term to look at is ‘diagenesis’ – interesting section about bone decay in the wiki page…again, just some additional ideas…I can see flutterby getting nervous 😉

          • Quartz–>>silica–>>sand—>>glass—>> window —> “in cases of emergency, break glass”. And all those window references. You can go forever with quartz. Did you know that sand is the world’s most plentiful resource?

          • JDA Believe me I totally understand that rule. I don’t want to put out my solve( to the general public) because the area of my solve has some fragile areas and too many feet would be detrimental.

        • JDA,

          My WWWH is a mountain peak and taking it in the canyon down is a literal thing. I also think that the WH in HLAWH is also quartz but this time it is the blaze at the hidey spot.

  28. Halt; Stay, stop, freeze, change in direction/movement, inaction, stand, finish, an interruption or temporary suspension of progress or movement, rail station… draw up.

    Draw or draw up; to come or cause to come to a halt [which in of itself doesn’t always mean blockage or obstruction] Halt as in; no longer around, gone. Or gone as in; disappear, cease, past or past on…deceased.

    The end if ever drawing nigh. Is there a connection to WWH and HLnWH? Are they one in the same? Same place?
    If the end [WWH] is drawing and where ‘waters halt’ [ ‘drawing’; an act of pulling or draining to or from ] could WWH be the end of HLnWH… do we need to learn that WWH is where we need to be at, rather than, leave… from where we are told to start with the clues?
    Is there any reason we are not starting at the end?

    The subtle difference might be how we perceive “take it in” as a movement or a station for observation. The same can be given for “put in” as an action or a sight or line of sight. Drawing in this case might be understood as; to come to a place… or watch something come toward or to a place. A depiction of what is seen.

    Does anyone else see that many, if not most, of the words in the poem are interchangeable in their usage?.. and all could be of a single place and we need to observe its happenings.

    • There is a 95% chance wwwh is the Colorado River. It’s flow has steadily decreased for a long time…. And possibly will be a creek in the next 100 to 500 years… And that goes along with the comments made by FF of when he believes the chest will be found. Imo

      • William…. the Colorado River is definitely one of the most controversially controlled rivers in the world and millions of folks rely on it’s resources to survive. Two things; when has Fenn ever definitively commented on when he thinks the treasure will be found? And second; where do you come up with the 95% chance ?

        • I don’t know exactly where the comments are but I have watched interviews of FF I have seen him say in 3 different interviews. One in particular he mentioned 900 to 1000 years it could be before the poem is solved chest is found. I’ve seen him say possibly the next millennia. I’ve seen him say “in a hundred years. And I’ve seen his interview where he said about his gut feeling. So I’m just saying imo looking at the state of decrease in flow and need of the Colorado’s water. There will not be enough water for the demand. Even possiblity of a “water war” sometime in the future. So imo with FF predicting way into the future is when the chest is found. That’s my 95% reasoning . But no proof thus far. Just my gut feeling lol

          • Thanks for the reply William. There are water rights/supply issues all over the Rocky Mts. dating way back…so who knows. Fenn says he is ambivalent about IF/when the treasure is found. The comments you are referring to seem rather general and may be just a sentiment or wishful thinking. It is interesting that he has said that the treasure may be found sooner than he thought. What exactly is *sooner* ?

      • William,

        Regardless of the probability and speculations… much of the lost flow is due to human or man-made directional alterations flow of the river and its tributaries. Even though a lot of those directional flows don’t have “structures” involved… do they fall into the same guidelines?
        Example; is a ditch that allows water to drain somewhere else [altered by humans] from its natural flow come into play? In one case of the CO river, not only changed the amount of water, but forces the flow onto the opposite side of the natural watershed.

    • an avalanche was my same place for wwh and npuycjhlawh. goes along with forrests comment that rocking chair thinking could get you the first few clues.

  29. wwwh is the door to all the clues- you have to go there no matter what – there is no other way to get to the clues – if you are going in your house to your bad room do you use the front door or do you go in through your bed room window – every room in your house has its place and so do the clues -wwwh is the key

    • All of the rooms where I live are good. Activities in various or individual rooms are subjectively evaluated, based on values. As always, IMO.

      Oh! . . . I should (per MY values) say something about the hunt.

      In my opinion, gold is ALWAYS gold.

      In order to narrow the reasonable (this is subjective, don’tcha know) choices for “where warm waters halt”, one might list the things that might reasonably qualify as “warm waters”. I have done this, and my list includes the following:

      1. water issuing forth from the ground (hot springs, for example)
      2. tears
      3. blood
      4. urine

      These are listed in order of decreasing likelihood of matching FF’s meaning
      in his poem. Please note that more than one of the above items may be
      applicable in the various “layers” of the poem’s possible meanings.

      My opinion the above lines are part of.

      • tighterfocus,

        Fenn mentions his “rainbow” then the treasure… as an art dealer, and dealing in old, expensive and collectable art… I wonder why ‘colors are not in the top of your list? I mean, a rainbow is all about the colors of the light spectrum, involving warm and cooler colors. right?
        Just an observation….

    • Not so! ” Begin it where warm water halt’s and take it in the canyon down is the first clue! There is no period after halts… It’s a long clue but has been cut in half by everyone and FF has gone with it…. Laughing probably… Look at the periods…. Commas ,,, they are important!

      • Not so!
        BIWWWH is the 1st clue.
        Just pay attention to what F stated and you will know.

        • William and Jake;

          I disagree with both of you. I think that the first clue is the first three lines. Begin it to walk. JMO – JDA

        • Your leaving half the sentence out! It’s one big clue! Imo…
          If bwwwh was alone there would be a period.

          • William – follow your own advice. There is a comma after “down” – the sentence does not end until after walk. Follow your own advice, stop at the period, not at a comma. – Read the poem – Not my opinion, but a fact. JDA

          • True !
            My point exactly!
            That’s why wwh is not a lone clue. There are sentence that join to get the answer to wwwh.

        • Begin it where warm Waters Halt and take the canyon down, not far but too far to walk…. That’s the first clue! But it’s been abbreviating by everyone saying begin it where warm Waters halt is the first Clue. There’s 9 Clues and it looks like 9 sentences to take you to the blaze. But like Forrest said there are some words that don’t mean anything and some that do. It would be wise not to Discount any of them. The first clue is begin it where warm Waters halt all the way to the.period….. imo. It’s a story.. put it together to reach the end that is actually the beginning! Word smithing.

          • After all FF said a couple ppl or teams solved the first two clues then walked right past the last 7. If anyone thinks botg is after piahob is the 4th clue imo that’s wrong

          • If you gonna ignore what F stated then that’s fine with me.
            F doesn’t care about punctuation.

          • The punctuation is a subtle clue. There’s even 9 periods. He said follow the clues in order. ?? Let’s say when someone gets to The Blaze. They’ll need the words, he hinted, new and old. Brave and wood. Although he said the first clue is BWWWH.. and we know it is. But we also know life is a circle. We will end where we began.! Imo
            Think deep with logic

          • Willaim ~’Begin it where warm Waters Halt and take the canyon down, not far but too far to walk…. That’s the first clue! But it’s been abbreviating by everyone saying begin it where warm Waters halt is the first Clue.’

            Nope… fenn stated the first “clue” is; “begin it where warm waters halt.” No one is abbreviating it [ at least, not any more. Although, some just don’t want it to be true ]

            The thing is, is a clue a full answer we desire? Or is it part of an answer… How many clues does it take to understand, ‘nail down’ WWH?

            The simplest example is; What’s black and white and red all over? That is the way we hear that riddle, right? But it actually is; What’s black and white, and read all over?
            There is more than one clue in the question, but it only produces as single answer. [a newspaper]
            Stanza 2 could do the same, in theory. Sounds like four clues, but all four, or more, may be needed to “nail down” the correct answer to “where” or even “what” warm waters halt is all about.

            It is also possible all 9 clues relate to a single place… being WWH. For example, and in one reading for the poem;
            WWH could simply imply where fenn meant to die. We begin at the same point, but to be there at the exact point we need to know what fenn sees from there. In this case, WWH is the place of the blaze, and where the chest lays in wait, and all the other depictions of the clues can only be seen from that exact spot… no matter the size of what WWH refer to. Possibly why we can’t go looking for the blaze without knowing WWH first.

            Now, try and count the clues…. without leaving the poem. You may only see two or three or four actual references of places, from the first clue and the blaze itself… and not so much 9 different place. Fenn has only stated there are 9 clues… he’s never said how many clues give up a place.

            Just a different perspective.

          • And = +
            IMO you need the two to plus two to = something.
            Begin it WWWH And (+) take it in the canyon down, (comma is a pause)…which means pause and think for a little before continuing.

      • William: evidence suggests that Forrest doesn’t really give a hoot about proper punctuation. He certainly makes mistakes with commas, apostrophes, capitalization, spelling, and compound nouns all the time. Shall I share a couple quotes with you so you can get a sense of Forrest’s position on the subject?


        “So many writers, I don’t want to be critical, but I know so many writers that are so much better than I am. They… Everything is researched perfectly. Everything is correct. The commas are in the right spot, and you go right down the center line. And I told this writer today she should be writing Encyclopedia Britannicas. It’s no fun to read. Everything’s there, but it’s no fun.”


        “Does the semi-colon have specific meaning for the correct solve? If so, what?”

        Forrest: “No. f”

        “Does punctuation have significance in solving the poem? If so, what?”

        Forrest: “No. f”

        • Well done. Good job using catcher in the rye as an example. Oops i forgot, salinger is too cynical for this cult to stomach

  30. IMO

    poem and ttotc have multiple entendres.. in fact, it’s good to keep in mind that one measure of a master artist is by how many entendres they can squeeze into each expression, brush stroke, lyric, sentence, word.. and heck, even a single letter or symbol.

    having said that, I’d like to point out one entendre of WWWH that I think has been missed by many..
    COLD.. WARM.. HOT.. as in the game where something is hidden.. and if a searcher steps closer toward the hiding spot.. they are getting “WARM”.. and obviously, if a searcher steps further away from the hidden object, they are “COLD”..

    A search implies the searcher and object are clearly not in the same spot at the beginning.. so.. “Begin it” is understood to be COLD without actually saying it..
    then.. “Begin it where”.. WARM.. “Begin it where warm waters”.. HOT.. therefore, HALT..

    there’s tonnes more there, but i’m just going to leave it at that 😉

    • Happy Thoth,

      Hide n Seek is not really a came of searching, but more about being caught. The main objective is to get farther out so your chances of getting catch first is less.

      In my thoughts of HLnWH and WWWH… you’re idea can work, but with a twist. Example; you start at the idea of cold being WWH, however, the “drawing nigh” from HLnWH could be perceived as its water going to WWH. OR HLnWH is considered your hot spot idea, and WWH is where that water is cold. The question is; do we need to go to the hot post [HLnWH] or stay where WWH -IF- the water is meant to draw [ drain ] to nigh [near] WWW halt?

      In an observational search [ call it a stakeout, lol ] your farthest point to see, could be, hoB …which drains to WWH or to be considered “just” HLnWH… hypothetically – the suspect is coming right at you, line of thinking. In this case, NPFTM is all points in between. In this theory, hoB is only known of when one is on site to locate it from WWH, and the need for botg, as well as, nailing down WWH… a ‘fix’ spot. IF I was to label the game… I’d call it ‘I Spy’

      Example only; a lake {WWH} and there are 3 water sources that enter the lake. The one you need {your creek} is below hoB {the end is ever drawing} Nigh as near[er] to you, standing at the correct location at WWH to see it all. WWH, now “just” became HLnWL [ your hot spot ]. The place you Begin at.

    • The danger there HT, is assuming artistic mastery a priori, and then using that assumption to justify that any and every perceived multiplicity of meanings is not only present, but also intentional and purposeful.

      Just because something *could* be the Rosicrucians doesn’t mean it *is* the Rosicrucians.


      • Imo
        You are correct,
        PrePONDerance of evidence.. each piece must be supported by another reasonable one..
        Forrest was very clear in one of his videos.. “SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE”

        so in my example.. HALT is imbued with HOT.. supporting evidence? THE “CAN” YON(DER) DOWN..
        RED HOT..
        yonder down..
        SCANT (scanned)

        X Mark’s the spot.. but Supermans vision isn’t just Xray, now is it?

    • Btw.. in looking at WWWH in the way I described means that COLD, WARM, and HOT are no longer descriptors of the WATERS .. in fact, WATERS becomes isolated, which is very important..

    • It depends how cold the water and how warm the water.
      It also depends on the person….

      • good job Jake – sense I cant say where the cold water and warm water come from its up to the person to figure it out – that’s what the poem is all about – its not what the poem says but what he wants to say- but cant

        • Your warm is my cold.
          My warm may be your cold.
          Bottom line is what is F’s warm is (comfortable) in water?
          Where does it halt? When it’s cold?
          This is a man that bathed in the Madison.
          It depends upon the person but F wrote it and I think everything in the poem is about F.

          • ok Jake – I wasn’t talking about bathing – its my fault if you didn’t understand – maybe I should of write it this way and sense I was talking about the poem wwwh I thought you knew what I was saying – what I meant about cold I meant freezing cold due to melting ice and snow coming down in a river – warm could be released from a lake a reservoir and meet with each other- where wwwh

          • It halts where it’s commanded to stop abruptly by some kind of force. It’s cold when a uncomfortable action has taken place. And it’s all related to waters.

            Where in the poem, map and book does this take place? FF was uncomfortable the most when he was exposed in the tub outside taking a bath with either cold or hot water. Has anyone found the grandparents house that has the water pump and where FF took those uncomfortable baths?

          • frank,
            You mention cold, freezing cold, melting ice and snow.
            How could any of these pertain to warm?

          • Jake,

            If I may insert, snow or ice melts the water is warmer than the two. When the snow/ice is gone the water halts. This brings up where are the waters?

            Just Say’n

          • CharlieM,
            I don’t understand your comment.
            “snow or ice melts the water is warmer than the two”

            Not sure what your trying to say.

          • CharlieM,
            Because the water isn’t warm.
            We are looking for “where WARM WATERS halt”.
            Not where ice and snow melt which is cold, very cold.
            Doesn’t make sense to me.

          • Jake,

            Yes the water is cold with the touch or temperature, technically the water is warmer than the ice/snow which is made up of frozen water.

          • Begin it where warmer waters halt.
            Naaaa, don’t fit, you need to quit.
            I hope this is not your begin place seeing it is everywhere.
            It’s got to be a specific place where Fenn frequented and is special.

          • Jake -frank you mention cold freezing cold freezing cold melting ice and snow how could any of these pertain to warm – melting snow and ice going in a river if you go in your body will freeze that’s what I mean by cold – so if a creek with warm water from a lake or a reservoir mixes in with the cold river water it halts being warm – that’s what I think he means when two rivers come to gather that’s where warm water halts I know what you are going to ask how do you know its two rivers that meet – I don’t but that’s where my salve takes me

          • I don’t think you guys get it.
            Neither of you have “WARM waters”, only cold and very cold.

            Warm, not hot or cold or frozen.
            Warm, warm, warm…..

          • Halt halt halt… all Water is consider liquid, otherwise its a gas or a solid… waters [plural] “stop” being liquid.

            “warm water[s]” is liquid, between the freezing and boil point of water. So it it stops [halt] being a liquid… what is it now?

          • Jake,

            I get what you are saying. I’m not saying it has something to do with with a solve. I was just trying to clarify what frank was trying to say.

            It really makes sense to say that this happens all across the RMs so this line of thinking would be impossible to find wwwh.

          • Seek,
            Warm, warm, warm….
            Warm is the qualifier.
            Not water(s).

            In other word(s), the water(s) stop being warm, warm, warm.

            You’re looking for WARM WATERS where they halt (stop) where Fenn has frequented throughout his life and a special spot of his. Not glaciers, ice, snow, quartz, kitchen sinks, bath buckets, continental divide.

            Stick a porcupine needle in my eye ken.

          • I think I’ll go over to *the key word* (a word that is key) page and stare at all the….nope, I’m gonna go watch some tube.

          • Jake,

            LOL you’re only ‘hoping’ warm is the qualifier.

            Water[s] is mentioned twice and seemingly related to the ‘clues’ directly.
            Warm waters – halt
            HLn water – high

            I’m not A lit. major but, it would seem “waters” [plural] is quite different to “water” [singular]
            The difference being plural as All vs. singular as an Individual.

            Population vs. populations might be a good example… a country’s population vs. all country’s populations.

            This is not the only interpretation we can arrive to. Warm can be of a color.. water colors in art.. which give a nice idea for YS. But none of our brilliant ideas are worth the time to type them out, until we can understand what exactly the poem is relaying.

            IF all you think this is, this nothing more than a tracking devise.. simply follow the Yellow brick road to the wonderful world of OZ. Then 300,000 plus searchers couldn’t find a recipe for chicken livers and squash, even if the page was marked.

          • Sure, we should only think about one single line in the poem before anything else, right?
            LOL we’re supposed to nail down the first clue, not overlook the rest of the poem until we do. When “water” is mentioned twice in the poem in singular and plural forms… the second water should be on standby until we decipher the first and all preceding clues?

            The clues are IN consecutive order, they should be followed in order… are we only to decipher, interpret a clue by not understanding the difference of the same word? I mean, for all we truly know ‘water’ could be a ‘word’ that is key…

      • Jake, ~’It also depends on the person’

        Not really. You’re talking about an ‘amount’ of comfort one likes compared to another person. The one fact that doesn’t change in a temperature [ under normal health condition ] is the body’s tempt.
        I mean, some may say 87 degrees feels hot, and other may like it that way, in or out of water… the body at 87 degrees is not diggin it at all, it has completely shut down. IF we’re looking at what is warm to cold, within the challenge, what is the only reliable factor to warm, as a temperature and comfortable? A couple degrees one way or the other will be noticeable to anyone… by touch or likes and dislikes.

          • well being from the land of lassie, curlers, close clips, and gilligans, island. all things come to pass! what last, a 100 or more years? glass plastic . rock, does it contain warm water? water may be gone along with every thing we know we better get on it people, if that don’t make you think what will? its got to, or not, be under ground it will take a deep thinker to find that spot, lol. good day all im off to thinking how why where im just a spirt on the winds of time.

  31. Anyone ever see a standing wave on a river? Maybe if you squint your eyes/cock your head sideways the waters appear to halt? Not sure how to find the right one, but they are out there.

    • Surfed many a wave on a river. Sometimes waves become holes in kayaker terminology. No better way to see those Canyons.

  32. Water…s is plural and not a name given IMO for those waters, except that there is a name given or inferred in the next sentence, one definition, a (the) canyon….down, geographically a 99 per cent chance down is South. No Down is not from Ducks and Geese feathers…sorry.

    Canyon South in it’s flow of water’s, warm water changing to cold, so we are ascending if we take our search in the canyon right. Now I am just using my imagination now and lets say that we have an hourglass full of the sands of time, which way does it flow? Perhaps the key to this poem is not too complex but sublime and hidden, if so then there is another complete layer for each geographical clue, a hint is given in the first stanza, otherwise it would contain the first clue…which, as we know it, first clue is in the Second stanza, that hint or hints of another layer, gone alone, after he was there with only one or two others perhaps both men and each in their 80’s his father and Eric Sloane. Ask yourself if ff and Eric Sloane ever go to Yellowstone when Eric was over 80?

    Also a bold reference to “riches new and old” Why bold and where would riches old come from? How old is old, over 80? Hey! I am 72 but feel most of the time I am about 15?

    Where am I going with this you ask? When or warm waters halt in me is gonna probably be when I am dead. Meanwhile I like to think like a kid. That’s why I am Enthusiastic about Savin the Rockies..


    • Tommy: while most rivers in the northern hemisphere generally flow south, it’s not 99%. Plenty of counterexamples: the Willamette in Oregon, St. Johns in Florida, the Genesee in New York, and of course Yellowstone River, just to name a few.

      • Wyoming’s full of rivers running north to the Missouri.

        The Wind (initially) and the N Platte (eventually) run southeast

        Only the Green flows south for any real distance. The Snake a little ways before it lights out for Idaho.

    • a thought experiment:

      envision a square table with a map on it, there are 4 people standing at the four sides of the table listening to instructions from one of the four. If the person giving instructions points to a spot on the map and says: “go down from here”. and that person meant to go “south”. the other three people have permission to roll up the map and smack that person upside the head with it, and that person’s “map privileges” taken away for a period of acceptable punishment.

      if you did that in some nation’s armed forces, they may stake you to an ant hill. geez…..

      • If you was looking at a picture of the land from above, I’d agree somewhat with your thought, Writis.
        A map is only meant to be read with the thought of N.S.E.W…. up, down, right, left to avoid such confusion. The one factor that is not truly one of the above is elevation, and why most would explain as an altitude gain or not, where a map is concern.
        Now, If we take GE into consideration as a “good map” then yes, as a picture of the land, down can be a few things, such as; down in elevation and still northward in direction.

        Ya have to ask; Why did fenn say good reference tools are “GE *and/or* a good map” That kinda implies a good satellite picture of the landscape is just fine for the job. LOL- now the question is; what “details” is fenn wanting on a good map or GE? Is GE just a convenience or a visual affect of the real landscape?

  33. Wwwh isn’t about water! Word smithing the words into a 13 yo mind will get us there!

  34. Jake you asked what’s black and white and red all over? That’s Waldo! Where is it? The chest is on the Colorado River in Colorado. By my account. I will put it together in a couple weeks. You’ll see

      • I’ll catch up tomorrow. My bad! Been on a date and wwh at the same time! Sorry. She is impressed tho need I say more. Reading up morrow. Thanks everyone! Ttys

    • I have seen enough William. If the treasure was hidden in Colorado or on the Colorado River, I will eat my hat. I’ll be waiting.
      Have a good safe hike though.

  35. My observation is, the poem has any rule about one sentence one clue. Could be, but also could be multiple clues per sentence, and certainly no clues per sentence, punctuation not withstanding. FF has been very clear as pointed by many here that Wwwh is the first clue.
    Take it in the canyon down could mean south or both south and loss of elevation. This may be the wrong chat room for this but HOB is the key. So warm waters can be geysers, rivers, lakes. glaciers, rain, snow, hot, cold, or quartz, but a canyon takes south/down to HOB. So what ever of these forms of warm water you choose, they must lead to HOB. Keeping it simple again as instructed by FF.

    • If you think that warm waters can be quartz or cold, I won’t worry about you getting to the treasure chest before me.

      • TF , the first line of the poem, As I have gone alone in there. As I have gal one one in there, ergo if gal = gallon ? What two things fit into a Half gallon? Quarts! Follow the poem!

        • Sorry Tim, you lost me on this one – – – Gone alone = Gallon
          Now you change Gallon to a 1/2 gallon??? Sorry – You lost me – Now quarts = Quartz – Just a bit of a stretch for me – JDA

        • FF has said the words mean what they say. If that is true, I dont think we should merge words to make up new words. Where in the poem does it tell us to turn ‘gone alone’ into gallon? I dont think it does. IMO

          • Finder,
            Are you referring to “bold”? Because I guess you could say that “bold” is “slightly off”, though I could not consider it making things up. IMO

          • JDA and Flutterby you are probably right it is too far to stretch. On vacation and it just came to me! But I did not use it in my solve. I do not believe have = Halve is too big a stretch but pulling “one” out of gone and alone probably is… still stretching feels sooo good!

    • id guess its not in this place i ran into a minute ago,Czechoslovakia that’s not simple. no its not there but it does exist there i wont say what led me there funny minds travel in funny ways there are a lot of rabbit holes to explore. in time we may tell exploring more options i know i need my mind and more time have fun.

      • i forgot to mention the deeper you go the hotter it gets i believe that’s the core of it. sun is shining on colorado to day so im off to visit our sun for a while, good day to you all. be safe out there.

  36. Seeing there is no page for: And take it the canyon down.
    As I stated before WWWH is not in a canyon because you have to TAKE IT IN “THE” canyon down.
    Now that I review these lines and 1st two clues I come to the conclusion there is only one canyon to take your quest down. “THE” tells me there is only “ONE” canyon from WWWH.
    “THE END”

  37. Jake, No question, their is only one canyon. Of Course their is only one warm water source and only one hoB. And don’t worry, WWWH ain’t quartz and it ain’t cold, so when you are standing over the hidey spot I might be there too.

  38. One thing that may be worth thinking about is the purpose of WWWH. Sure, it’s where you start, but if that’s all it is, then you could get lucky and start at HoB, or even later. IMO, there’s a very valid reason for WWWH being absolutely essential to your journey.

    So, unless your WWWH is a spot that is localized enough to provide essential “information,” it’s likely not correct – again IMO. This would rule out the CD or a large body of water, for example.

    It’s worth remembering that FF said something to the effect that you won’t know if you have the correct WWWH until you retrieve the chest. Logically, that would indicate a link between the two.

    • “The first clue in the poem is ‘Begin it where warm waters halt’. That’s the first clue. If you can’t figure that clue out, you don’t have anything.”

      “What surprises me is that so many ignore the first clue in the poem. Without it all the searcher has is the memory of a nice vacation. Although many have tried, I doubt that anyone will find the blaze before they have figured out the first clue. f”

      “The problem searchers make is that they don’t dwell long enough on the first clue. If you can’t find the first clue you don’t have anything. People driving down the street looking for a blaze, because that’s one of the clues, but you can’t start in the middle of the poem and find the treasure.”

      Nothing here is late breaking news, Vox. But, can we really dismiss the CD or a large idea [ kinda thinking along the lines as the bog picture] not being involved with WWH?
      It seems to me that many are only looking for the reference for WWH in a single line of the poem or directly from the book itself.
      Why can’t the idea of NPFTM refer to the “backbone” of the RM range in a poetic manner? It may not give up a specific point on the range for a specific WWH, but it could narrow down what WWH might refer to and where. Then we have other words and lines and phrases in the poem… tired and weak, Brave and in the wood, Below hoB… even the end is ever drawing…
      Can’t any of these relate / help relate / to an idea of WWH? Especially when we’re told “all the information to find the treasure is in the poem”?

      Paraphrasing a Q&A; If someone told you to meet them at WWWH, could they do it? You over-simplify the clues… Look at the big picture.

      So is the concept that WWH is a specific local, the only way to think about it? Or could it be that the remaining clues [ or some of the clues ] actually explain where we could locate the correct WWH [ what it could be about], in the large scheme of the big picture idea?……… the thinking and analyzing part of the challenge.

      Lets say; fenn an environmentalist, more than most -[ from the book ] is giving a ‘subtle hint’ for “thinking the right thoughts”… might the idea of the CD, the watershed of the entire mountain range, come into play… and the river bottoms are where dreams and fantasies alike go to play?
      What part of WWH are we not dwelling enough on or about?

      • I don’t think we disagree in most respects here, Seeker. I do believe that the big picture leads to the particular when it comes to WWWH. But the big picture is not enough (at this point). IMO, you need a very specific and narrowly defined location.

        You said it yourself with the ATFs: “If you can’t figure that clue out, you don’t have anything.” My point is, WHY don’t you have anything? You don’t have anything because WWWH (the precise location) is necessary. It is an essential tool in finding the treasure.

        Yes, the info is in the poem to narrow WWWH from big picture to tiny cameo, but what I’m saying is you can’t leave it at big picture stage. You need to open the cameo brooch to get “directions.”

        • It’s been stressed so much to “look at the big picture”, that it seems that a reasonable searcher could choose a large area and define it — at least tentatively — as WWWH. After that, the clues do seem to “narrow” the search path. The end of the path, however, still seems a bit too “broad” for my taste, taking one to a search area that is tedious and time-consuming to thoroughly search (especially after hiking there — not too easy for those folks anywhere near 80 years old). All IMO.

        • Vox, Seeker, I don’t know if I’m being redundant (I don’t read all the posts and remember far less than I read.) but was lazy E, pg 122-3, ever mentioned as the ‘big picture’…. the areas mentioned are in close proximity. OS2

          • Sorry, OS2, I’ve never read the book. However, that “lazy E” sounds like a nice little hint!

          • Box, If you never read the book, how do you know what the ‘lazy E’ is? It’s not a hint, it a description in the manner ranch brands … a letter not in its vertical position may be referred to as ‘lazy’. The page (double pages, facing each other… therefore ‘big’) has old photos of Fenn’s family at fishing sites near W. Yellowstone. The photos are laid out in the position of a ‘lazy E’.

          • OS2…I think you have made a great point re: “the big picture” and the “lazy E”. We used to throw around the idea of “Skip E”…interesting that he is noticeably absent from the collage.

      • I wonder if the use of the word “dwell” is a suggestion of how WWH relates to HOB. A dwelling can be a home. Is the idea of dwelling on WWH a suggestion of how to look at the big picture?

    • Seeker: we have additional relevant information from Forrest via Dal from 12/29/2013 (Nine Clues part 25): “Forrest once told a searcher who suggested that the entire YNP could be the place where warm waters halt that he was wrong… That it was a specific place and not a region… Which suggests to me that it could not be something like the continental divide or the western front of a range of mountains… as has been suggested in other posts on this blog..”

      You can emphasize that this is a Dal quote, not a Forrest quote, and that’s of course pertinent. But like the information from Cynthia, I think it’s pretty much as good as coming from the horse’s mouth. But it could *also* be the truth yet not the whole truth — that the idea of what WWWH represents could be huge, but that additional poem information makes it precise.

      Where you and I differ is that (above) you propose that that additional information could come from *later* clues, while I maintain that WWWH has no dependence at all on later clues. I believe you could end the poem at line 5 and you would have everything you need for the precise starting point.

      • Zap said- Where you and I differ is that (above) you propose that that additional information could come from *later* clues, while I maintain that WWWH has no dependence at all on later clues. I believe you could end the poem at line 5 and you would have everything you need for the precise starting point.

        I agree with this.

        • I‘ll add to that… I’d say you could reduce the poem to line 5 and still begin it at the correct starting spot, as long as you’re fully aware of the big picture…

        • Hi TLo: would have to disagree with you there — line 5 doesn’t have all the necessary information. And we have a direct quote from Forrest that proves it:

          “Dear Forrest, You tell us that we should find ‘where warm waters halt’ before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is: a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe” Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve”

          Forrest’s reply: “No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?”

          If somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe *plus* “Begin it where warm waters halt” is insufficient to confidently determine the starting point, then certainly poem line 5 without additional poem lines will not cut it.

          • Zap: unfortunately you‘ve cut the second half of my post… on base of the AWARENESS of the big picture, line 5 will be sufficient IMO.

            And besides… I think many ATFs include tricky wordplay and as a result can be misleading! I respect you as the perfect ATF- and fact-expert and I read all your posts! This way I realised that there are a few ATFs you are taking too serious.

            – duration of all clues must be 100 years plus (I say that is not true)
            – FF says no to the q above but he just refers to the other clues! You conclude you need other lines to nail down clue #1… I say you can nail down clue #1 without any other line in the poem but with FFs stories and/or background!
            – FF says: you cannot find the last clue with GE (paraphrasing). You say: on base of that you can find clues 1-8 before putting BOTG! I say that is not correct! There may be more clues that can only be found with BOTG! I have experienced that, but unless I will end up with the TC on my lap it‘s only IMO

            Don‘t get me wrong… I like your expertise and it‘s always a pleasure chatting with you!

          • Hi TLo: I didn’t intentionally cut it, but we have a fundamental difference of opinion on the nature of WWWH, because to my way of thinking line 5’s standalone solution *IS* the same as your big picture awareness answer. But that big picture will not give you the starting point.

            You, on the other hand, believe that awareness of the big picture when coupled with line 5 will give you the answer. You can see why that doesn’t work for me because it would be like saying “awareness of the big picture” coupled with “awareness of the big picture” will give you the specific starting point.

            “… I realised that there are a few ATFs you are taking too serious.”

            Before addressing those, let me go on record as saying that I think the opposite of many searchers: that they don’t take Forrest’s ATF’s seriously enough. But let’s examine your examples:

            “– duration of all clues must be 100 years plus (I say that is not true)”

            I stand by all the clues being long-lasting; not geological time scales, but probably long enough to outlast anyone currently alive. There are always unforeseen exceptions, but I am not worried about forest fires, tornadoes, floods or mild earthquakes making the clues unsolvable.

            “– FF says no to the q above but he just refers to the other clues! You conclude you need other lines to nail down clue #1… I say you can nail down clue #1 without any other line in the poem but with FFs stories and/or background!”

            Well, you’ve muddied the waters a bit by changing the question to allow “FFs stories and/or background” to be permissible extra data sources. That extra information was not specified in Steve’s question. What is your answer if you knew nothing about Forrest, never read his books, Scrapbooks, etc.?

            “– FF says: you cannot find the last clue with GE (paraphrasing). You say: on base of that you can find clues 1-8 before putting BOTG! I say that is not correct!”

            That’s actually not the reason I conclude that 8 of the 9 clues can be solved without BOTG. It’s his other answer that all the clues could be solved “in theory, but not in practice.” I say all 9 clues can be solved without leaving home, but a physical presence will be needed to ascertain the exact location of that 9th clue because it is not visible on Google Earth.

          • Zap,

            I’m with you, there is nothing in the poem that will help identify wwwh. One needs to solve wwwh all on its own and it can be done before you see the rest of the poem.

          • TLo wrote:
            ” I respect you(Zapster) as the perfect ATF- and fact-expert and I read all your posts! ”

            ROFLMAO!!….. Zap, it is pleases me immensely to see you finally getting the recognition you so desperately seek! I’m certain JCM is equally pleased to see it….Go git ‘er, guy……

            Good Luck to Everybody!!!….loco 🙂

      • Zap~ ‘Where you and I differ is that (above) you propose that that additional information could come from *later* clues…’

        You are still thinking too literally / linear. The scale of WWH in the ‘idea’ above is all about; what WWH could refer to as the big picture. The second part of the ‘Idea’ is helped by the other ‘information’ in the poem – which can also include another or other clues… ***included by; what they are reference of, not their specific role or where exactly they are. [that’s very important in this theory]

        Example; IF NPFTM could refer to the CD, yet we know nothing more about the role of that ‘specific’ clue, yet… that would help with understanding WWH might be about. IF TEIEDN to be; near, than the ‘end’ and/or ‘near’ the ‘boundary’ of CO and NM?… we then would have a much, much smaller location for the correct WWH reference out of the many.
        Did we not [ in this example ] kinda “learn” by the information in the poem, “where to start” and a possibility of what WWH may be a reference for?

        But that still doesn’t replace the later clue’s ‘specific’ deciphered reference… it only helps with where we could find whatever WWH refer to and at a specific very tight location. We still need to decipher each later clue to exactly where it is or what it refers to “there” at that location. For example; Nigh could reference the left-west side of the CD ~ being the more ‘specific’ reference to ‘follow’ ‘precisely’ line of thinking for each later clue.

        This is one idea of using multiple meanings of words and their usages. Its not easy to do, but it can be a workable solution IF we have the right thoughts… the theme, scheme, understanding -[call it what you will]- of the poem. Basically implying; What is the poem ‘talking about’ to get the gist of what it’s all about… the big picture?
        Hear me all and listen good, your effort will be worth the cold, if you are brave [ The backbone of the Rocky Mountains – CD] and in the wood… [referring to a mountain passage- the CD, a place on the CD.] Cold, the top of the CD, or its peaks… but no need to be on the peak. Cold at the end of the poem is only explaining the mountains involvement in the scheme of things.

        “My church is in the mountains and along the river bottoms where dreams and fantasies alike go to play.”
        Does this depict, in a subtle way the CD, the watershed of the RM’s? The big picture idea… and, what all the clues could refer to?

        LOL, I don’t really care for the complete idea… I still need to understand how fenn would [ more or less ] follow his own clues. The only option I have in this theory would be… when it gets from the big picture, to the small scale, and starts at the correct wwwh out of the many… and each clue reference has a specific need from there. [ such as nigh, might be west or left ].
        Last, but mot least; I don’t need each 9 clues to be a place… some of the clues refer to places, while others are directions. We may only need to be physically at three places in this theory in the completed solution.
        Later clues are not ‘deciphered’ before WWH, the information in those clues [ and any other part of the poem ] is to get the ball rolling on the “right thoughts” and ‘learn’ where WWH is. **That is, IF you believe “all the information to find the treasure is in the poem”

        All that crap won’t fit on a posted note, but the completed solve might…

        • I forgot that I had an idea that clue 3 could help identify clue 1. So, I’m changing my reply above.

          I still think the first 5 lines can get you to the correct wwwh.

          • You just figured out how to solve the poem. I just figured this out the other day. It is possible to just study the poem and get the understand how the tight focus works. I have some work to do with much thought and studying.

        • Seeker: the bottom line is that you need a precise starting point. “Where warm waters halt” all by itself doesn’t provide that (Forrest has said so). Therefore additional information is needed. It’s not an issue of linearity, just as a cake missing an ingredient isn’t a linearity problem.

          “The scale of WWH in the ‘idea’ above is all about; what WWH could refer to as the big picture.”

          I’m totally on board with that, and the big picture answer is rather obvious (to me, anyway).

          “The second part of the ‘Idea’ is helped by the other ‘information’ in the poem – which can also include another or other clues… ***included by; what they are reference of, not their specific role or where exactly they are. [that’s very important in this theory]”

          Oh, I get what your idea is. I just disagree with its basic premise. Your theory critically DEPENDS on information found elsewhere in the poem. Good so far. But all the examples you cited were lines, hints or clues from later parts of the poem, and THAT is what I disagree with. It doesn’t matter whether it’s a later clue or a general hint or what-have-you. Nothing about my disagreement has to do with stomping, or other places, or proximity of features. It has to do with putting the cart before the horse: extracting information out of order from the poem, when the clues must be solved in order.

          Now, I know what you’re saying: “Hey, I’m still *solving* the clues in order — Forrest never said all the information needed to solve each clue has to appear in order in the poem.” So you’re taking a holistic approach that any information found wherever it lies in the poem is fair game for establishing the specific WWWH starting point, and furthermore that such information can be dual-use: helpful in specifying the precise WWWH while later being solvable as it’s own later clue. I just disagree, that’s all.

          I can’t prove my approach is correct, nor do I think there is sufficient information in all the ATFs to disprove yours. Perhaps you can navigate an end-to-end solution with your idea; I’m admitting that I cannot.

          • Zap;

            On this one I have to agree with Seeker. I have said for a long time that the “secret” to finding the correct wwwh is figuring out what “In the wood” means. Figure that out, and you have wwwh – or pretty close.

            Once you get to the “In the wood” stanza/line, the dolution to that stanza/line MAY be quite different than the one used to figure out wwwh – JMO – JDA

          • Hi JDA: if we all agreed with each other about everything, this would be a very boring place, wouldn’t it? 😉 One thing that I bet you and I would agree on, JDA, is this: if Forrest were to tell everyone that Indulgence was never hidden in Montana, my reaction would be very similar to yours if you instead replaced Montana with Wyoming: a towel being thrown in.

          • Wanted to give Zap an example of a way to have a later clue help an earlier clue. I generally agree with Zap that later clues can’t help earlier clues. But, I think that f could have found a way to do this and not run afoul of his own rule for what a clue is (gets one closer to the tc) and that the clues are consecutive.

            The example- A searcher figures out the geographical location nearby the correct wwwh from the first stanza of the poem.

            Then, the searcher Begins it wwwh. Takes it in the canyon down while following the poem to Put in below the hoB.

            Draw on a map just these clue answers and a possibility shows that when that searcher puts in below the hoB that he/she could be on the opposite side of the wwwh from where they began (just depending on how the dirt road travels around the wwwh in this example).

            That is how a later clue can help or help confirm a previous clue and not run afoul of f’s statements. The hoB can confirm the correct wwwh by naming it. This would help a searcher nail down the first clue like we have been told by f is essential. The searcher is closer to the tc at the point of putting in below the hoB than he/she was when they began it. Nothing says f can’t use another name for what a searcher has already figured out in a previous clue. In this case, the correct wwwh.

  39. I believe you are both correct. Forrest always tells the truth but he doesn’t always tell all of the truth. Wwwh may only be part of the first clue…in fact, if the first two clues get you within 500 feet of the treasure (200 feet?), Then maybe we need to rethink our clues. Perhaps clue one ends at HOB, and clue two ends at the Blaze, and clues 3 through 9 are in the last two stanzas. I personally see directions in the last two stanzas. (So) Wye, L(ea)ve, K(no)w, Tir(E)d, (We)ak, So

  40. to start at wwwh first you have to get there – where is there – where does not far but to far to walk start to get you to wwwh –

    • Frank, You asked “where is there”…. that’s the riddle. Maybe the address would help… “Here Me All” sounds like an address to me. Just for fun. OS2.

    • frank,

      You said, “where does not far but too far to walk start to get you to wwwh-“

      That is a redundant ?. It doesn’t, it gets you to boB while taking the canyon down.

      • If I remember correctly from the recent past, you were saying wwwh is after you take the canyon down is near or next to hoB, or the same place. If not you then someone else.

        The words “Begin it” = Start and “take It” = Go

        How does one get to wwwh? Well I guess you will know IF you have the correct wwwh.

        • Charlie – wwwh is at the bottom of the canyon (canyon down ) and from there you take it in to home of brown – in this stanza below means east so wwwh would east of hob at the bottom of the canyon – now how would you get to wwwh from not far but to far to walk

          • frank, I disagree, wwwh is at the top of the canyon. As F has said not to mess with his poem. What you are doing is moving the line of wwwh to below to far to walk, taking it out of order.

            How do you come about the method you are using? I can’t grasp what you are saying.

          • Charlie – sense forrest couldn’t say what he wanted to say in the poem – its up to us to figure out what he meant to say but couldn’t – its ok if you disagree its not written in stone im not saying im right or I could be if you say that wwwh is at the top of the canyon its ok but I disagree I think its hob that’s on top of the canyon but what do I know good luck with the chase—-frank

  41. os2 thanks for your reply – I think it would be an address – that’s why its not far but to far to walk- from the address to wwwh to the tc – nice talking to you os2 feel free to reply on my comment at any time thanks —-frank

    • Hi Frank. Those words – ‘So hear me all’ – always sounded the the opening address of a proclamation or something. They have a town cryer feel. They appear in Mark 7:14 and ‘Listen good’ a little further on seems to have confirming resonance … but like having the “right” map, you have to have the ‘right’ bible to get the right words. The whole passage is about ‘Defile’…. but not in the same sense as a defile to a Frenchman. That is a mountain passage so narrow men can only get through by single file. Interesting, but …. c’est juste un autre trou de lapin en français (had to use Google Translate for that.) Good luck, OS2

      • OS2,
        Im pretty sure that Bible verses are on FF’s list of things that will not help solve the poem.

        • Hi Flutterby, Just going thru this thread again… I didn’t mean the biblical verse but only oneword in the verse which is also happens have a different meaning in geography.. The word is defile … a very narrow canyon or passage. To a Frenchman it would be so narrow that men can file thru only one at a time… ie … a slot canyon….. funny but word, slot came up when I was going thu the etymolgy words of clove & klau…. which had lots of references to lock & key & nail. A slot is a key of sorts, its that sliding bar on a lock. Food for though.

          • OS2,
            Thanks for the clarification. And, you are right that a slot is sorta like a keyhole or key.

  42. Zap..I believe FF did say that all the clues had to be solved in order, on more than one occasion. Can you point to any one time he said otherwise?

  43. OS2, you’re right, I don’t know. However, as I said, it sounds like a hint, and has resonance with something that has occurred to me more than once in relation to the poem.

  44. I’m asking for it now! Lol haha.
    “Begin it where warm Waters halt”
    I see ” Be in it her arm”
    The statue of liberty holds a tabula ansata.
    Inscribed the date July 4, 1776, the date of the adoption of the Declaration of Independence.
    The original document is on parchment which is made from animal skin. The skin preparer occupational name is Tawer… All the letters in the word Water…
    The word Halt ..okay .. there is another German word that has the same pronounce… It’s Haut.. it’s German meaning is.. Skin.
    Sooooo, I remember the tiger skin on the roof in TTOTC. Or could this actually have something to do with the Declaration of Independence? Or ???

    • William… Or maybe it was a typo …. holt, not halt, and its a confirmation of ‘brave & in the wood”, Though I think ‘in the wood’ is more relevant to being mad than being brave. IMO, the Statue of Liberty is less useful in this dalliance than the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier….. I’m not just rambling, and your eye for detail will pay off. OS2

        • Well, as long as I am going thru this thread again, here’s more of what i was implying… Brave & in the wood… In the wood is an expression that means ‘gone mad’… like the English say “gone round the bend”….. Crazy mountains was possibly named for a woman who went mad there when her family was killed by Indians. It was common territory for Chief Plenty Coups…. He’s a really interesting story, sided with the whites, his braves were the trackers for George A. Custar at the Little Bighorn, …. But, less commonly known, and what Fenn probably knows well, is that Plenty Coups also was the only Indian speaker at the dedication of the Tomb of the Unknown Soldier at Arlington Cemetery in 1921. His feather headers & coups stick are ensconced there. There are several pictures of him in the Henry Sharp book that Fenn published. Again, food for thought.

  45. Fundamental Design,
    I agree that there may be words in the poem that rename a previous clue in order to confirm it. FF made a point of telling us that the children who visited the art gallery all used different names to describe the bronze indian. One said it was a bronze, another a sculpture, someone else called it an art. Is this why a child might know the answet? Because they arent rigid in their preconcieved opinions?

  46. Wait. Don’t tell me.
    WWWH is where Forrest’s pee spot is.
    Time for another time out!

    • No. It got it’s name long ago, The toilet bowl rapids holds rafters in a vicious toilet bowl swirl and sometimes a rescue is needed to get them out of the vortex. So I can say that it’s another WWH probably not his but nothing would shock me anymore.

        • I already did! I just realized I have been looking for a place and I’m off what the poem is saying. Have you found this key word? And know about breaking all the rules? And opportunity?

          • One question at a time William.
            If your going to ask many questions all in one comment, you may want to sit on Seekers toilet.

            Besides, I don’t know what “this key word” means or about breaking the rules and opportunity when you don’t explain.

            All I know is when you flushed the toilet it went down to the treatment plant where another searcher will see it as a clue.

          • I just figured out the poem itself is an entire map itself to take me right back to wwwh on a map. I see now that the entire poem in itself explains where WWH. So I am guessing once I can solve this..that I go on the map with the poem again from the correct wwh. This is what I’m getting out of it so far

          • Jake… Seeker’s toilet?
            Are ya jealous my throne is cleaner than that salmonella hat on your head?

            William, you have to excuse Jake. The last time I posted more than one question, smoke bellowed from his ears so bad, the sun disappeared for a week, and the Earth’s temperature drop by two degree. So try and limit them if you can… or we may go into another ice-age.
            Oh! and never mention water, he’ll start to melt and all we will have left is that wet hat.. and i’m not cleaning up.

          • Seeker,

            Speaking of billowing of smoke, you do a lot of it yourself with your very long spews. 🙂

          • I get my smoke from CO…. It won’t hurt the environment so I’m told, and the griz seem more mellowed in yellow-stoner.
            Don’t worry.. be happy.. {insert peace sign and pipe}

    • William;

      Did you know that if you click on the “Reply” button that your “reply” will fall under the post that you are answering. Because you did not hit the “reply” button your last two posts ended up on the left side, and no one has the slightest idea to whom, or what your response is related to – Just a hint that will making following a train of thought a lot easier. – JDA

      • Sometimes the button is there and sometimes not. Next time I’ll close and re-open and try that.

      • JDA,
        Sometimes clicking on the reply button does not allow you to reply in order of context. Sometimes there is no link to reply in order and that is why sometimes folks aren’t replying in order. Tonight that darN reply button seems to be elusive for some reason. Maybe someone has a solution. I know I don’t.

  47. good morning all so i got out of the car a year before my stroke asked a few questions about ww and its there’s a starting point some live above and some different live below i went the wrong way of coarse the canyon has plenty of beauty to occupy my time for years to come you might as i did have to have botg to figure that spot out i walked up a creek and felt warm water change cant get back there i forgot where there was i know now that was the wrong creek i got to go down the canyon farther. up late just thinking out loud good day to all. always who knows thats where i began it. but i dont know but Bubba does lol

  48. after reading this thread i figured there is a lot of intelligence in the room messing with my thoughts and mind so i figured id toss something silly back wwwh is below the hob but what its got to be above 5000 ft or you couldn’t go down a canyon from there to get to your hob or to your creek where you have a lot to see and smell thats a tough target.

    • Jeff,
      Or maybe, as has been suggestd previously, “canyon down” doesn’t mean what you think it means. IMO

  49. So been looking at Rio Chama for wwwh and I’m finding lots of good info and then I find this. Do you see it ?

    The recommended minimum flow requirements for kayaks, canoes, and rafts less than 12′ is 300 cfs. For rafts over 12′ in length the recommended minimum from is 500 cfs. The BLM manages a 31-mile stretch of the Rio Chama – from El Vado Ranch to the Big Eddy takeout. Another put-in/take-out spot is Chavez Canyon, which is about 22.25 miles from El Vado Ranch and 8.25 miles from the Big Eddy takeout. Click here for a detailed description of this Rio Chama segment.

  50. I think I am close in unraveling the poem but I’ve hit a wall suddenly. I know (I think) FF has said it’s not under or in any man made structure???
    Also he has said… Some of the places the clues refer too did exist when he was a kid.now this quote suggest “some of the places” have either naturally formed or where made in his time… Can anyone elaborate any ideas on the subject?

  51. William;

    Here is the second quote:

    Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years?
    Thanks ~Ron
    Thanks Ron, thoughtful questions
    The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure” f

    I read it as saying that the CLUES did not exist when he was a kid, but the places did.

    He says nothing about any of them being built either by man or nature since his childhood. Just how I read it.

    There has been much discussion regarding a structure. The gist of it is that Forrest once said that the treasure is not associated with a structure – which many interpreted as where Indulgence is – is not associated with a structure. Then one day Cynthia mentioned to Forrest that her hoB was a structure, and supposedly, Forrest interrupted her and said (paraphrasing) – Didn’t I say that the treasure is not associated with a structure – implying that no clue in the poem is associated with a structure. This is how I remember the story – I could be wrong – Hope this helps – JDA

    • JDA – Here is also one Q&A from Mysterious Writings that is relevant:

      Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits?

      Thanks, d

      Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information.f

      From this, I would take it to mean that “home of Brown” could still be a human structure as a waypoint leading towards the treasure’s hiding area, which is not associated with a human structure.

      If you, or anyone else, is able to find the source of that exchange between Forrest and Cynthia and share it, I would appreciate it. If we can find hard evidence of Forrest saying (or subtly insinuating) that “home of Brown” or any of the other clues are also not associated with a human structure, that would be huge. I’ve investigated many possible “home of Brown’s” and I would say that the majority of them have been one type of human structure or another.

      • Googling structure doesn’t really help but if this came after Cythia’s post than it does suggest that just the treasure is not associated with a human structure. I am also going with human structure as well because otherwise the treasure could only exist in a place without any form of structure.

      • Blex,

        I highly doubt anyone can come up with a final conclusion with any single ATF. Not unlike the poem.. the ATF’s need thoughts and analyzing as well.
        For example[s] and I’m going to paraphrase [and in part] a few ATF’s;
        Marry the clues to “a” place…
        The Q&A above: did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits? Yes D,… the treasure…
        Cynthia’s recall of the conversation about hoB and fenn’s response.. no structure associated with the treasure.
        WWW is not a dam [ a structure ].
        The treasure is not associated with a structure.
        Other seemingly related thoughts;
        The words treasures, chest and trove mentioned in the poem.
        Searchers within a certain distance of the “treasure” or “treasure chest.”
        Hint’s will help with the clues, clues get you closer to the treasure.
        I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest…
        People have figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.

        If you note one thing only, fenn only talks about the chest in a manner or term “treasure.” I don’t recall [other than the poem] fenn stating “trove” or “chest” ~ only treasure or treasure chest.

        There are many many more ATF’s that can be considered, but the point is… It seems to appear the clues being “contiguous” in such a nature as they could be of one place – “A” place on a map – touching, joining or related as one place, close enough for the first clue to be a walking distance to the chest…
        IF so, Then all the clues are not only a way to follow a course to find the chest, but the location of the clues are also considered ‘associated’ with the treasure chest… not only as “created” “blueprinted” “architect”-designed solely for the clues, to get you to it… But might also include the land and what is within the location, of the clues, to actually be ‘associated’ with the treasure chest.
        Basically saying; in a poem written [the creation of that poem] for a single purpose, to locate a hidey spot where the treasure chest lays in wait… ‘everything’ is associated in the poem, and in-turn associated in the field as well, just for that purpose.

        This idea or analyzing different ATF’s might not be something folks who have miles between clues, or structures involved would except, and that’s OK. Although, when you look at the many comments and interviews, Q&A’s etc… a pattern for thought seems to emerge. Clues in order, both the poem and in the field, Contiguous, Followed by the creator of the clues, Married to A place on a map, That he completed in one afternoon, less than a few mile, with searcher at the first clue and walking by the chest…
        The small scale idea [ as in; the clues are closer together ] also might explain how the land/area/place of the location of the clues are associated with the treasure chest’s spot.

        I highly doubt we can take any single ATF and draw a factual conclusion without considering the many ATF’s over 8 years. There has to be a check and balance for the most probable conclusion.

        The same could have been done, about the idea, the chest submerge/hidden in water… but we don’t need to, now.

    • Took a bit of looking, and although not the actual quote (#1) it does reference where it can be found:

      JDA on December 10, 2017 at 8:23 am said:

      Here is the post you guys are refering to: cynthia on December 9, 2017 at 6:53 pm said:

      JW, I’m not actually trying to sell you my book but there is a section in it where I talk about Forrest telling me HOB cannot be a structure. In my search story I was telling him about one of my searches (2014, I think); my hob was an old abandoned CCC cabin. I also talk about another searcher who used an Indian ruin as her hoB, and he told her the same thing. No structures.

      Hope this helps. Not having read Cynthia’s book, I can not put these “second-hand” comments in perspective, so will file them as “Interesting info.” JDA

      End of my previous post – Hope this helps. JDA

        • Much appreciated, JDA! I found the original under Odds & Ends Archive #39 and see the above quote from Cynthia on 12/9/2017 at 6:53 PM towards the very bottom of the thread.

          It looks like right after Cynthia made that statement, the page was closed for comments and most people moved on to other discussions. I would love to hear additional backup on this from Cynthia or even Forrest himself if it were possible, but this information really pushes me in a different direction if hoB is not a human structure. Plenty of cold season weather ahead for me to ponder over this more!

          • Thanks Aaron – Seems pretty final to me. The logic is good. No structure associated with any of the 9 clues – JMO – JDA

          • Thanks for sharing that, Aaron! I share JDA’s opinion.

            IMO, this information seems significant enough that it should be added to the cheat sheet as an addition to the entry listed under “subjective information”.

          • Aaron,

            Best thing that came out of Cythia’s post [hoB] imo, isn’t about “structures” as much as Multiple Meanings and Usages of words. Let’s recall DG’s posting of her e-mail from fenn… where is your home?

            The KiSS idea would say- house, right?
            But it can refer to neighborhood, state, country, a place of habitation etc etc… with each meaning and description giving pause to other thoughts related to the poem, rather than the simplistic building/house/structure.

            Does halt only mean stop?
            Lets take that word [stop] and relate it to ‘stop being something’ rather than a movement only.
            Does it change halt at all? Nope, not at all… halt still means stop. But it changes ones thinking to other possibilities… “Detective Mr. KiSS” doesn’t allow thinking like that. So “take it in” couldn’t possibly be a view of sorts, and down must mean a movement only, and not an instruction. Investigator Mr. Try T. Simplify looks at all the information, and doesn’t let the badge go to his head.

          • Halt does mean stop, however it is typically a temporary one. What is your best guess: temporary or permanent?

            I do agree that ‘take it in’ could possibly refer to a view.

          • Heck if I know, Aaron. LOL..
            I’m still trying to find the location of the path that will lead to the chest, beforehand. In the meantime I’m pondering how the words work to bring it all to a single thought process.

            And before some knowitall shouts out.. it’s a map.. Well, Duh! which dart are you looking at?

          • Aaron…a reminder that halt can also be interpreted
            – to walk or proceed lamely (LIMP)
            -To be in a state of uncertainty or doubt between alternate courses or choices (WAVER)
            -To display weakness or imperfection (FALTER)
            As with many different ideas over the years…these alternates can play double- duty while trying to nail down what Fenn may mean when he says … Begin it where warm waters halt. I do not know anything…but this makes me waver a bit.

          • Ken, while it is possible that halt could mean something like limp or waver, I really doubt that FF used very obscure definitions of words. Yeah we know he looked words up but he also wanted to keep it simple.

            If I have to look for a place where warm waters waver I’m in trouble…

          • Aaron…I assure you those are not archaic or obscure usages of the word halt. Be that as it may…it was just random info that you can do with as you choose. The threads today seem to bring to light the many different/varying interpretations of Fenn’s many comments. At the end of the day… not any of the content is a sure thing….

          • Aaron,

            Brave is in the poem, tired, weak, meek etc. All possible ideas that halt could relate to something along the lines as limb or waver or falter.
            Just because a definition of “walking with a limb” doesn’t seem possible.. the idea of NF,BTFTW also comes into play in the poem, to the usage of the word… it doesn’t have to mean a physical impairment of ‘person’

            In short… it’s all connected, line of thinking.

            Look at it this way If you “know” hoB, you’d go right to the chest, and If you know what hoB is why be concerned about WWH… right?

            Yet were’ told we need all the ingredients… and told without WWH ya got notta… not to mention AAaagaain, folks at WWH didn’t know much of anything and went by the whole thing. We need WWH for some reason, and without it… later clues mean nothing.. even when on site, apparently.

            Is it because of the idea halt is unlikely to have such an “obscure” or less common use of?

            Mr. KiSS would yell foul, But Mr. Try T. Simplify would look into it as something everyone else may have overlooked… at the clue… that we need to nail down or stay home. It may not be about the “place” of WWH that wavers or something… I mean “falter” means hesitation or delay, right? Does halt in a temporary movement not mean the same? What causes that to happen may be more important to what limp could refer to and why we may need to understand that too continue on the correct thoughts

            “I looked up words and definitions of words and change them… it came out exactly like I wanted”
            “Each word was deliberate”
            Wordsmith, look up several.. and see many of us don’t know the words we use everyday…

            Just saying.

          • We know that f’s warm waters halt somehow. What I find interesting to ponder about his warm waters is do they continuously flow prior to halting where we are to begin or do they occasionally flow to this particular wwwh place? How often are they flowing prior to? If occasionally, maybe that would be easier to identify since maybe less features like that out there.

            I don’t know the answer.

          • All… It is just like the words *nigh*, *scant*, or even a capitalized *Brown* at the end of a sentence that supposedly does not relate to a structure. NOT very common usages by todays standards given what we have learned and been told. Just the same…is it not prudent to be aware?

            “Ron, your question reminds me of a travelogue, but I’ll answer it. No, I don’t want to be so bold. But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked the word “few”up and one definition is scant. Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles?” f

          • Seeker, If I didn’t know any better, I would say you’re using Quantum Mechanics to solve the poem.

            “it’s all connected, line of thinking.”

          • Thank you, ken. One or two of the most recent scrapbooks seems to suggest such to me. One more than the other.

          • Thanks Ken, I know it’s plausible but I really hope I don’t have to use that word. Figuring out water halting is hard enough. Wavering water seems like more of a challenge.

          • I honestly believe it may have more than one meaning. A physical location and a more figurative meaning. How can people find it but not solve anything. Not know where they are, unless that is the case?

          • Well Aaron…. next time you are out on a hike and the light starts to waver…and the stars begin to show themselves a bit…look down at the slowly moving water. I’ll be wavering at you…

          • Jake,

            All connected means, without one the others don’t work… Or the idea of “knowing” hoB and not be concern with WWWH.
            It would be impossible to “know” hoB without wwh. or go looking for the blaze before figuring out the first clue.
            Not unlike folks Knowing the solve vs. a general solve. knowing is absolute… it needs all the facts involved. And it seems WWH is the nail that joins it together.

            I think synergy; The whole is greater than the sum of its parts, would work better than quantum mechanics.

            It’s all connected. Without one part, the greater whole falls apart… but you need to have certainty of what the whole is creating, line of thinking. Certainty of the location beforehand might mean more to the solve than the simplistic idea… on your mark-get set-go!

          • Is it ok if I use the word “begin” in the poem to mean begin and it’s that simple?

          • Shoot Aaron ! Maybe it does…this is all conjecture anyhow. But, I’ll still be wavering at you…

          • Ken,
            LOL I like the word play but, are you suggesting that slower moving liquid waters is involved? Just wondering. That would seem the same as trying to figure out what is warm to you or me or Aaron in degrees. The speed of water?

            You may not have meant that, but that is what got caught up in my head when I read it.

            Although, it works for frozen waters. And why water is plural… snow, rain, vapor, ground water and surface waters that freeze or was at one time frozen… A glacier of old vs. new? A slow movement of ice by gravity. Called by Archeologist as an “Ice-river”? and a good description of HLnWH… carrying its treasures in there downing [bring down, creating] a canyon…

            Sorry, rambling and rumbling abstract, again

          • Seeker…I was not really *suggesting* anything really, except that there are countless plays on words hidden and not so hidden with everything Fenn writes. To ignore any of it may deny oneself the opportunity to see something a bit differently than the norm. You *echoed*(that’s for pdenver) my thoughts fairly well with your examples of the many words in the poem that (((MAY))) relate to limp, falter or ((((waver)))) along with the *idea* of /walking/. For sure there are several others as well. Next time you are out fly fishing with waders on, think about how you are stepping as you move along as well…something about that halting step you are taking may ring a bell. Heck if I know…I was just adding to the conversation about how nobody knows anything…

  52. Thanks JDA and everyone else! But I think this needs to be looked at closer. It sounds like some clues could be man made and then again not. And what is a structure in FF mind… We need to get to the bottom of this. It’s very important to say the least. And I have figured something out and if I’m right. Wwwh isn’t even water. I will share what I found out from the poem with everyone soon. But I have some more questions. I’m going to be out of pocket offline for a big part of today. Please everyone two things, what is a structure considered as? Dwelling or something with a roof? And Halt, does halt temporary stop or hold? Thanks everyone for your imput.. none of my finding has anything to do with a building btw. Thanks again.

    • According to all the recent drama and shouting… a ‘thermal feature’ that you can dip your toe in.

      • Hi Emma, I know about the recent drama and the collective logic failure that happened over there. I don’t understand why those searchers believe they have new information. They could’ve easily referenced to the collected bookstore interview when Forrest was talking about those who call him on the phone asking for hints, here is part of it:

        “One time I asked this guy… he said, I found it, I’m looking at it right now. I said, “Can you tell me if the hot
        water ruined the patina on that beautiful bronze box?” He said, “Thank you!” and he hung up. He thought that was a
        clue. He was going to start going to all the places where there is hot water.” ff

        • …it just sounds eerily similar asking someone if they dipped their toes to see if the water was warm.

    • To me a geyser is the geographic feature that best describes WWH. Warm water comes out for a bit then literally halts for a bit. A geyser is a geographic feature that may best describe HLAWH as well. It builds up a heavy load under the ground and then shoots water high.

      I know some like to tie WWWH and HLAWH together so there you go.

      • The.definition of a geyser is that it has intermittent eruptions. So that part makes sense. But, boiling water doesnt seem the same as warm waters to me.

  53. Halt, wavers or limp twinkle twinkle Little star.
    Where warm WATTER halts. Just like those red flashing lights that pilots look for. And the key word in the poem imo by the story I’m getting out of the poem is CHASE arguably it’s not in the poem.. but yes it is .. it’s the Title..
    Chas eye of the needle

  54. My thoughts were fluttering about today. Question for everyone. I know we have discussed homophones before and I know there are opinions for or against homophones. I was just wondering, if homophones come into play, then could WWWH actually mean wear warm waters halt- as in wear that warm waters halt? Just suppose that where is a homophone. Warm waters (rain) could halt fire or ice for example. Im just thinking this over. Doesnt fit any of my current 3 solves. But this would be an alternate way of looking at the clue.

    • FF said the treasure isn’t associated with any structure? But the trickster has never said the poem and clues aren’t. Be assured indulgence is in a hiddy hole. Wwh is in my best solve in Helena Montana! And this is what warm waters halt is. It’s the historic navigation Beacon (s) there are several along a flight path that we’re used to deliver drop mail… Let me explain what warm waters halt by the lights first..
      Red= warm.. WaTTers=lightbulb halt= intermittent blinking..
      WaTTer(s) definition. (S) more than one.. https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/watter
      Chase is the key word in the poem. CHAS = eye of the needle. It was vandalized.. you should be able to figure out what home a brown is from here. And why chase is key.

      • No special knowledge is required in the chase according to Forrest. This sounds special to me. Good thought though.

        • Specialized knowledge means; an advanced level of knowledge or expertise…

          Just because we’re not familiar with something doesn’t make it specialized. Yet we are told a ‘comprehensive knowledge of geography might help’ Is that specialized?

          But here’s a kicker… what if a clue reference requires/tells us, we take something we all know about and learn more about it? Is that not many are doing with researching everything under the sun… things called brown, studying the fish and game regulations for each state, learning about geographical places..Plants and Animals and habitations etc. learning about art and artist, even reading the books from “Important Literature”… How about math? Do we need to cross the all the lines by triangulating their positions?

          LOL Leonard Susskind is an American physicist, was a plumber for many years, taking over his father’s business at age 17, before becoming one of the world’s most respected physicist… even challenging Steven Hawkins findings that ‘nothing can exists after entering a black whole’… A plumber did that. But Information does… information on the molecular level can not be destroyed.

          Funnier yet, that I know that… and I be a redneck.

          Where or when does knowledge become specialized?

          • So a kid or a redneck in a pickup know these things? I bet 95% of searchers didn’t know about William’s statement. Show it to a kid! Common sense will prevail in this chase.

          • ManOwar,

            You heard of the Pony Express, right? Later the postal delivery were by planes in some areas. Those areas used concrete arrows to point the pilot in a direction to fly [many still around today]… It might not be common knowledge for some, But I’d bet most couldn’t tell you who the VP of the USA is either… without running to google.

            My main point was; could fenn be telling us we need to brush up on something we already know about? Like Geography… I mean, he did come right out and tell us. One theory of mine was, Tarry Scant meaning math [Tarry Point]… you can look it up if ya like, but its basically how to find a point within a triangulated area… also know by 9 point circle, but slightly different.

            The simple idea is to locate the first three clue’s that are a physical places, and go from there. Fenn said he had no expectations in the Q&A… and why would he. It’s not his job to know about what we know or don’t… We need to know what ‘he’ is relaying about.
            If the poem has to do with Native American history… do we not study up on that subject? Or cry foul because we fell asleep in history class.

            It seems ya’ll want it simple right from the start… Even when he said it’s difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it.

            We only have the same opportunity, but not all will be able to solve it. So far he’s kicked all our knowledgeable butts.

      • William ~ ‘But the trickster has never said…’

        “No subterfuge”; 1.a trick or a dishonest way of achieving something: 2. an action taken to hide something from someone

        You change waters by an addition of a letter to mean a completely different word… “Don’t mess with my poem”
        Straightforward; In all honesty,
        Plain English… waters vs waTters?

    • you really want to go down that rabbit hole? the poem says begin it where warm waters halt. ive been on the best yoyo ride this week end in Nm got to say . i have a map that i acquired that says special trout water. the reason i started this reply the way i did. no punt intended. ill toss one back to you heavy loads and water high could be every plain in the sky. that opens up your search area even more now but you got to get under the flight patterns, God i had a good weather fun week end up a road i walked hoping i can do it when im 79 or 80. do have fun with it dont let the hook set i know nothing except there are things that you need to adjust to hence yoyo. always trying my hand at looking deep into the woods my eys arnt as good any more good day or night all. jeff burch and crew titan is a trooper.

  55. Begin it where…

    “Put in”~ in many chats has been explain as either; put in the water; or put in to land.
    Put In ; also means, Interrupt.
    Halt ; can mean a temporary change. Which sound like, an interruption.

    So begin it where… the waters take it in the canyon down at the location the waters halt or are interrupted.. not far, but too far to walk those waters, line of thinking.

    We may need to be below the hoB at that area of “put in” [ that interruption ] and where warm waters halt [ temporarily changes course? ]. Which might be “not far” or hoB could be very close to WWH.
    Basically saying we don’t follow the waters down the canyon… that’s too far to go… It could be, whatever hoB refers to, that hoB is the reason for halt and/or the interruption of the waters.
    If the waters [ for example only ] goes underground, and the course [ underground ] changes the flow direction.. hoB, in this case, could refer to where the waters go under… and we need to be at where they surface.
    Stanza three would explain; “From there”~ WWWH~ it’s not place for the meek, the end is ever drawing nigh, no paddle in that underground creek “just heavy loads and water high” ~ WWH above and the heavy loads referring to where the waters go underground @ hoB, line of thinking…

    IF you know what hoB is, why would you be concern about WWWH?… Because HoB might be what halt / interrupt the waters? without the correct location of those waters… hoB can’t be discovered as; what it does / has redirected, the waters?

    The part that bothers me is “waters”. IF a single flow or body of “water” goes underground… for it to have the plural usage, there should be more than one water. The second flow of water may connect underground… which implies warm surface water meets cold underground water.. below the hoB… and exits there to continue as a single body/flow of water…. No boat or car required. lol.

    Just rambling and rumbling geography….

    • Then can we consider hoB as the Earth? Ground? Dirt? If hoB is basically underground, or going, then really, hoB is not that important as to getting closer to the chest but figuring out what/or where wwh.
      “Waters” does not need to be 2 separate flows of water, but a name. Example, the waters of the Nile. So, this thought would lead to the name of a waterway that is interrupted by land, or goes underground. The question then being, how does the poem solve for such a name?
      Maybe the canyon was formed by waters that are no longer flowing, again, a name of such a place.
      The thing is, the ATF, which is the minimum clues to solve to find the chest, 1, just the last.
      That means that there is no need to “solve” for either of those places. The only clue to solve would be the last. And, the ATF about “in a subtle way, do you give the answer to one or all of the above”. (relating to Brown, hoB, wwh, and the blaze).Answer, No. If the answer is not in a subtle way, then it must be in an un-subtle, or non-subtle way.
      Un-subtle is: Clear, distinct, evident, straight-forward, undeniable, clear as a bell. In the poem, it is not un-subtle, does not say, hey, wwwh is right here, clear and precise. So again, he does not give the answer to those questions in a subtle or a un-subtle way.
      This is why I asked if we are reading the poem correctly. The answer to some clues are not in a subtle way revealed or an un-subtle way. So, how are clues solved? They are not hidden, concealed, obscured, etc… and are not clear, precise, undeniable, or straight-forward. If to get to the end means solving clues, then more then one clue would need to be solved, but he stated only one is needed, the last.

      Not far but too far to walk could be that he’s not really saying it’s too far to walk. He had the comment that was more a Freudian slip.
      Why is the phrase “too far to walk” so important?
      I didn’t say it was too far…err…important.

      So, we need to put in at a place we cannot solve, but could basically come across, and is on a map, if you are to consider that hoB has something to do with wwwh and the canyon. We really don’t know what hoB is, but popular census would say it’s landscape. But that’s a guess. That would lead us to the blaze, which again, has no answer for. But is meant to guide us in the correct direction. Solving for the clues seems more and more like the direction of a false solve. Especially if the solve for clues is between lines 5-15. So 9 lines out of 11 are to be used to solve for the path?

      Since wwh is important to us, and we need it to start, but cannot solve for it, there is only one other option. That is the poem gives the end spot, in which then you can find wwwh. We will only know wwwh when we have the chest line of thinking. We need to figure out wwwh. This can be done by knowing the end spot, it cannot be done if we use other clues, IMO. Because it is quite possible we don’t have the answer to some of the clues to ‘figure” out other clues, let alone hints. IMO, if this chest is almost impossible to find, then it is almost impossible to solve all the clues. Meaning that some of the clues can be solved and some can’t. So, to take the path of solving clues to get from one clue to another to find the chest, that would be not almost impossible, but possible in so many ways. It’s like he’s telling us, “look, you can’t solve all the clues, so how else would you find the chest”. So, all the discussions of clues and there possibilities, and everyone not listening into what f has stated, my question is valid, are you (not meaning you), but are we deciphering the poem correctly. It seems like the community has made up their minds on what are clues and not clues and how to solve, but all the write ups seem to follow the “dart throwers solves” right off the bat. Never solving the poem. If the poem is straight forward, and the answer to some of the clues not available, and guessing is out of the question, and all we need to solve is the last clue, which is not wwwh or hoB or the blaze, how is solving for clues the path to take? IMO, it isn’t.

      Just rambling…

      • Poisonivy,

        I hear some of things you’re saying, but I think you missed by point.
        Could it be possible the waters go under hoB?
        HoB in this case could be a rock-formation which would require imagination for a searcher to see it’s form… Not all land formation can be seen from above or from all side that could reveal an image, that could be considered a form of something.
        The searcher may be standing at WWH, only to miss the image. They may need to move around to a specific side/angle for it to reveal itself. Hence ‘you’ might now be ‘below’ it.

        The idea is reading the first sentence [of stanza 2] as what the waters are doing and how “put in” could refer to “take it in” where they [the waters] Put In “below” and you discover hoB.

        Stanza 3 would only describe what the whole thing is about… “from” WWH, where it goes below, and where you need to be to see hoB reference.

        My example might be poor, but the idea is how; “take it in” and “put in” could refer to only the waters… and what hoB could be about. The second water source could be miles away but merge with the first, underground.. both waters doing exactly the same thing. hoB is where they meet. In this case; “Your” creek is located at “hoB” OR “just” HLnWH.

        There’s really is no difference to merging waterways above ground vs. underground. But in this theory..hoB is key to where it all takes place.

        • PoisonIvy,
          Since FF has indicated that the clues can be solved from home, I seriously doubt HOB requires a specific standing position to find it. But that is just my opinion.

          • flutterby,

            “In theory, yes. But not in practice. …”

            The whole point of this is to be wise and have found the blaze… right? Precisely mean exact…

            IF you can decipher a clue at home, knowing it as factual, I’m sure you can see where hoB might be in the scenario on GE. But, even then will we see it for what it is? Possibly needing confirmation on site.
            Many like to skip over the idea of planning and observation of the challenge. For me, “observation” is a need to be on site.
            The scenario above has a searcher surveying the correct spot to be at to see what hoB represents as a figure of something. Meaning fenn want you at the ‘spot’ for a reason.. The blaze maybe?

            In my scenario.. we would have an idea of where hoB should be, even find it zooming in with GE. But not seen properly, unless your at that spot to see it for what it might be with your imagination working and looking.
            Does that work for solving the clues at home? I highly doubt this location will have a street view available.

            I’ll Take it a step further… if there are carvings or gyphs or an F scratched in a tree, involve with a clue.. we can think of that prior, but only confirmed by being on site… right? Or finding a 10″ black stone… we can only think of these things as part of a clue, but ever “known” until on site.

            So, what’s the difference?

          • Flutter, Seeker beat me to it. In theory but not practice. In theory, I have all the clues, but actually, until chest is found, is only a theory. If you are attempting to solve all the clues, you have the “subtle” ATF working against you. Because there is nothing unsubtle that describes some of the clues. Meaning clear, no doubt, precise, etc… within the poem. That ATF must be considered first and foremost in my opinion. The whole chase seems to be done in a subtle way. We need to find everything out, and face value isn’t doing it. That’s throwing darts. If he’s written this poem to be solved in a subtle way, and the poem itself is unsubtle, then the answers to some of the clues cannot be solved, in practice. In theory, the end spot can be found, thus, the clues can be discovered along the path. So the poem is straight forward as to find where you are going, but subtle in it’s ability to get you there. Meaning no answer for some of the clues. Hence the comment, almost impossible.

        • Okay Seeker, I see what you are saying. Only because my blaze is much like what you describe. It’s in the landscape but you need to be there. No other way. We are still in the same boat of solving these places with the poem, knowing there is no subtle or non-subtle way of solving for some of these clues.
          I see your example. It would mean that everything is pretty much close to each other. This could be an out for those that feel lines 5-15 hold all the clues. It will also lead searchers to force fitting a spot because of the conditions. But it’s an example only, so I get the scenario.
          I believe a lot is within the landscape. Hence the BotG need. And, the picture manipulations that he does with the chase pictures resembling land formations, it only makes sense. This could be the scenario but then there is the poem and how does it solve for confidence to particular spots. And the “subtle” ATF.
          How close to impossible is close to impossible in f’s mind? I only ask because to me, that could mean that not all clues could be solved. If all clues couldn’t be solved, that would be impossible, if some couldn’t but some could, well, that’s almost impossible. But I think the reference was on finding the chest not solving the whole thing. But still same questions.

          The more I look at hoB, the more it is just to vague and broad to be a clue. The line could be putting in, or him just saying what he did with the chest, future tense. And with the ATF, hoB being one of the things talked about, hoB could be anything and unsolvable. Plus, we don’t need to solve it as a clue anyway, considering the only clue we need to “solve” is the last.

          Lastly, I do agree about the landscape, in fact, if I was to answer for hoB, I would say it is landscape, that could be seen from 30,000 ft from GE. Or, it can simply be a log/dead tree that needs to be rolled over. May not be there in 1000 years but was there when f hid the chest. Thus, not being a clue, but the line being said in a future tense. Either way, IMO, is not a clue. But, as you stated, it may be something that needs to be seen at a different angle, and part of the landscape will tell you. And, like I said, I agree, because of my personal belief. For me, when I break down that line I get frog. That’s it, just frog. Well, hoof own, which I see as frog. Just to show what I mean, go to GE, be at 30000 feet, go to Mount Haggin, look at landscape. It’s more of an observation then a clue, but there are other things that are within the path that it could be. Really, just too vague of a statement to be a “blaze” if you will.

      • Seeker,
        I just think HOB is a place on a map that can be identified before leaving home. I also think all the clues can be solved at home and the only need to be on site is to pick up the TC. Just my opinion. If ,as FF has suggested, we are to confidently go to within a few feet of the TC, we should be able to solve from home.

        • Flutterby,

          I work on the assumption that we can figure out where the clues are; “a place” on a map. Not unlike those who have been at the first two clues, only they went by everything else… Or the idea they left the poem… leaving ‘the place.’

          Sure, we can study the heck out of that place with maps and GE, but I doubt fenn meant ‘observation’ was simply looking at maps. To be honest, I don’t get that feeling of “What too me so long?” with this theory. Then again, that might just be the feeling that gets us started… understand what WWH actual is, or where that is at.

          Fenn said he followed the clues when he hid the chest. For me, than means one of two things;
          It’s basically the only route in and out, and sure, the most direct. With each clues having a needed station to be known.
          Or we need to utilize the clues is some form and not just walk to or by them.
          Well, there is a third idea… the clues are so imaginative in nature. only Tom Hanks could pick them out.

    • I like this post Seeker. The part where you say ” not far, but to far to walk those waters, line of thinking”. …did you mean to suggest that at that point WWWH is a place where you can walk the waters, like a ford? Where the waters are shallow enough to walk? It also sounds to me that the WWWH and canyon down may actually already be in hoB, since we have to put in below whatever hoB is. I think that’s why f said if you knew where the hoB was you wouldn’t need to know WWWH…just my opinion

      • In the scenario, the waters [one water] go underground and resurface, Not Far away with the second water = waters.

        Where those waters travels underground is a longer route, and not only too far to walk, but impossible to do it [the other water is merging there with the one we’re at].

        In this theory, stanza three is explaining the route. The route or flow of the waters is below hoB… whatever hoB is referencing. My idea is; something the landscape depicts to something we see it as, and the need to be in a specific spot to see what that might look like.
        This places a searcher in a spot they may need to be at to discover the blaze.

        Is the blaze in the poem? Yes and No But it tells us where to find it, line of thinking so the blaze is in the poem because of it preciseness is needed to find it .
        Or only in the field? Of course it’s in the field. But nobody would know it as “the” blaze without the poem putting us right there. It basically would be ignored otherwise.
        All of this might take place as the waters are below [ where “your creek” puts in ] and ‘you’ are below hoB where the waters return to the surface… possibly standing at the blaze to see what is represented as hoB depicted in the land [ maybe a rock-formation.]

    • Possible places that fit this description:

      Sinks Canyon where Middle Fork Popo Agie and Sawmill Creek mix underground and exit at The Rise, Popo Agie continuing. Here Sawmill Creek is the warm water and Popo Agie is the cold water. Land here is a State Park. Many campsites and trails. Lots of tourists. No physical access to underground waterways.

      Also, Johnny Creek and Trapper Creek mix underground and their waters have carved out the Great Expectations Cave (Great X). Also in this same underground cavern is the Great Hall, Wyoming’s largest underground room. Waters reemerge via the Great Exit. This structure can be entered, but it is privately owned and permission of NSS required. The Trapper Creek sink is on BLM land.

      Not saying either of these is right, merely that I have two known places where this type of watershed is possible. And where there are two, there are likely more. This makes determination of which one is intended quite tricky, indeed.

      Your thoughts on these places appreciated, Seeker.

        • Interesting. Of these two, I prefer the Sawmill Creek pair. The temperature fit here is compelling. And phrases like, “In the wood, hear me all, no paddle up, and marvel gaze” fit Sawmill Creek better than the other pair. Public land arrangement is better, as well. Burnt Gulch is upstream a ways on Sawmill. Might be a great view from up there that would create the sightlines you’ve been talking about lately.

          My problem is that I still subscribe to a coordinate, or point-specific calculation, being needed to pinpoint the chest. I know in advance that I can’t find it with any significant general area search site.

          A triangulation of the two entrances and the Rise points would be in the tourist zone, and thus this seems unlikely to me.

          Nevertheless, I’ve got the idea on my list. Who knows, maybe I’ll stop by for a look see next summer. I’m sure it would be an interesting stop, even if the chest isn’t there.

    • Bighorn Medicine Wheel, Dr. Eddy’s diagram. Dancing with the stars. Might as well pick up the bell on your path to the chest.

  56. Or find the directions so we know how to play the card game. Almost like the poem isn’t the directions but something else is missing.

  57. Look into MEDANO creek. At the great sand dunes and the importance of MEDANO creekhttps://www.nps.gov/grsa/planyourvisit/medano-creek.htm

  58. Here is my ‘translation’ of the WWWH stanza:

    You’ll park where warm waters halt. From that parking spot, the home of Brown is nearby and that is where you’ll start walking down the canyon to find the treasure.
    It’s a long way to the treasure from this point if you stay on the established trail.
    But, if you follow the creek and wade in some places, it isn’t that far.

    (I am thinking about how a fly fisherman would explore a creek, looking for a new hole. Stay near the water, even if you wade through some areas.)

    Does that make sense?

    • Yes, but that may be construed as dangerous. Something a family may not be able to do. But I do agree, park at wwwh, because going into the canyon, no motorized vehicles. And you do have a long distance to walk, IMO. And yes, you will follow a trail, but in the end, will walk off trail a small distance.

      • Hi poisonivey,

        How long do you think you have to walk along the trail from the parking spot, and how small is the distance off trail at the end?

        — MajinKing

        • Majin, park at first clue, canyon is about a mile, 3rd clue another 1/2 mile, 4th clue roughly 3 1/2 miles after that, clues 5-8 roughly within a couple feet, all along trail, 9th clue and to the chest goes off trail less then 200′. One way in best.
          Not far but too far to walk. How far “to walk”? (not far, but “too far”) If you are walking long distances looking for the treasure, you are walking “too far”.
          Too far equals a long distance. You will need to be walking a long distance.

  59. I apologize in advance as I am likely bringing up something already covered.

    If you Google room temperature you get 68-77 degrees. I grew up with 68 as the number but in our house we often have the thermostat set to 72. This is one reason why I can’t use a blanket. In regards to halt on that logic I would halt at 68 as 67 is just not comfortable. Only a mad man would like 67 degrees. In the book it is curious that page 68 stands alone. We get a great picture of Donnie and Forrest at Fenn Haven in West Yellowstone. I however don’t think Grayling Creek is WWWH. So I applied my thinking cap (TMNT cap) and went to the first page I could derive (79). If you don’t know how I got that then I am clearly out of my gourd. Plus Forrest was 79 when he hid the chest (and Jupiter and Pluto were likely in alignment with Mars). However, on that page it talks about optimum temperature. Eureka! Clearly silver-plated titanium eyelids describe WWWH. Hmmm…maybe I rushed the Eureka a little to quickly. However this seems promising…perhaps if I took in the whole sentence. Either way 24 lines in the poem and 24 gauges say I am likely on to something. Perhaps a vacation to the loony bin or perhaps a trip to WWWH? Obviously 4 great artist were helping me out tonight.

    • I guess I have a couple mad men in my family. They prefer 65 degrees. I believe it might be a little tricky to determine what warm might be, although, Mr. Fenn did say it meant comfortable to him.

  60. What if – we arent looking just for the place WWH, but instead looking for “it”.

    If you look up the definition of “Begin”, one definition refers to a thing originating. This also fits the definition of home being an origin. So perhaps we arent looking at this correctly. What is it that originates where warm waters halt?

    • That depends upon how the waters halt. Here is a partial list of ideas from my list:

      If water goes underground, a cave or cavern, or such.

      If watershed is implied, flow halts whenever the farthest point upstream of any and all branch feeders into the system. Think points high up near Continental Divide for most areas.

      If water falls, the waterway itself continues, but trails often lead to these points, so maybe a trail is implied.

      If water freezes, ice, glaciers, frost, and such are implued.

      If water heats, steam, boiling, or simply hotter temperatures implied.

      If using the color idea for warm, theoretical merging of another stream with a color name could create another color entirely.

      Two streams of individual name merge to form a new one, i.e. Firehole and Gibbon form Madison.

      Geysers or springs could satisfy the idea of a halt, depending on interpretation.

      A high altitude, cold area wash certainly works as these can fill with snow melt, then dry up as the weather gets hot and the snow vanishes.

      Go high enough into the atmosphere and warm water does not exist. No water at all in outer space, so that could work, too.

      Water in lakes, especially those few on the Continental Divide itself, could be a halt.

      A place in the poem letter grid where warm waters are hidden and IT is available could be implied.

      I have looked at various places from most of the ideas on this list. My list is too large, too fraught with ways to go wrong. That is why I keep coming back to the idea that there must be a coordinate provided some how. This is why I remain focused (mostly) on trying to figure out how letters could be converted to numbers via a unique keyword to be identified, or imagined.

      Best to you.

      • Iowaengr, break down lines as many ways as can be done by following instruction words, letters, words in words, and abbreviations. The poem will not give you all the values, just a,b,c,d,e,f,g,l,o,p,s,w. plus some other ways. Up to you to figure out how to solve for all the values. (or you can email me and I’ll show you). You have my email, (Charlie).

        There is no unique word, IMO, but to solve for is pretty cool. The letter values open up everything. And yes, you will have the value to all 26 letters. It’s not as hard as you may think. Up to you…And, I could almost guarantee that even though we would have the same numbers, we would still have different solves. (mine being the right one of course):)

        There are just too many different ways to break down a line and too many different coordinate combos that are possible. I’ve posted the values before. It’s not well known because it doesn’t fit searchers solves, but does answer some questions. With my solve, they haven’t been wrong as far as to satisfy correct answers to some things. You would also need them to figure out the coordinates to the blaze. You won’t figure out any of that until you solve the poem, figure out, and start your path. You will need the values for the 9th clue and key. All, IMO.

    • Hello Flutterby. When my son-in-law first read the poem, he felt the word “begin” meant “time”. He felt it was when the waters were low and ready to freeze. My grandson tells me his father says he knows where the treasure is, which I respond that I wish he would go and get it. 🙂

      • Today I woke up to snow so depending on where your grandson’s father thinks the treasure is it might be buried in snow. Which reminds me of a miracle where I got saved from freezing to death while trying to save another. That however is off topic.

        Flutterby, sadly I do not know the answer to your question. The best I can come up with is that the canyon originates where warm waters halt. I am also open to the idea that it is either the end of the canyon, or a different type of canyon. I like couloir (one because if you add aid in the middle it sounds like kool-aid war) which is a steep, narrow gully on a mountainside. Which means if you are below this you are in the canyon down and to take it in would be to go up “it”.

      • Makes sense because when the water begins to frost over in layers the deeper waters are going to become warmer. Although the all the water layers are all cold (in human terms) the temperature rises going below the ice.

    • Sorry, but forgot to mention death as a way that warm waters can halt.

      And in summary, I’ve been toying with the idea that perhaps one must solve the poem in reverse. Fenn tells us that without WWWH we have nothing, but he does not say that one must solve this clue first. Perhaps it must be solved last?

      Consider the idea of turning back the clock. Begin with future tense move back to present, then to past. Fenn has gone, past tense. We are therefore in the future relatively. If we can devise a mechanism to roll backwards through the poem, we could theoretically move backwards in time and down his idea stream.

      Food for thought.

  61. It is what it is….WHERE WARM WATERS HALT. For most anything there is an opposite. Night/Day, Up/Down, Left/Right, In/Out, Forward/Backwards, Happy/Sad, Heaven/Hell, I think you get the Ying & Yang of it.

    What is the opposite of warm waters ending (halting)…..perhaps another way
    of looking at it without altering the poem would or could be to think in terms of…WHERE COOL OR COLD WATERS START.

    When thought of in these terms
    applying it to Trout Walters might assist it finding WWWH.

    just think’in outloud

    • Yep. It’s nuts every time I read about trout waters and reading old magazines like Warm Water Fly Fishing that actually did halt. Which are old magazines that is no more. Fishing not the cold trout waters but the bass warm waters…lol.

  62. “Trout Walters”…sounds like a small market tv newsman…

    I digress…

    I noticed that the last time I had my moccasins on the ground participating in the ‘chase’, I was covered with warm waters after a mile of hiking in the sun…

  63. Hi Guy,

    I would rather say “where cold waters continue” than “where cold waters start”, since the warm waters already started somewhere and halt at the WWWH spot. I don’t think “halt” means the “end” of the warm waters. It temporarily halted and then somehow it should continue to flow after the “halting” condition disappears, whatever that condition may be. Don’t you think? Again this is just my opinion.

    — MajinKing

    • It just occurred to me that most of us think “where warm waters halt” must mean that we are going from warmer to colder. What if we considered “where warm waters halt” to mean when warm waters get HOT. Also, I sure wish I could get the blog in my inbox again. I end up missing a lot of stuff and have to go back in manually and hope to catch up.

        • thanks, T. I just wish that thought would get me somewhere. Seems everywhere I go, there I am.

      • The poem doesn’t say “where warm waters end”.
        It doesn’t say “where warm waters cease to exist as warm waters”.

        As always, IMO.

        • You are right tighterfocus. I don’t think that the poem tells us where warm waters cease to exist. I think that quite possibly we have all been thinking that is what the poem is saying when in fact it is saying something else entirely. I have three current solves that Im working on. But Im seriously starting to consider that they are all reading the poem wrong.

          The dictionary says that “waters” can mean a body of water that runs through an area. So the body of water actually is “watering” the area. What if waters is used as a verb and “warm” is the body of water, while “halt” is the place getting watered.

          Random example pulled out of thin air. Imagine that “warm” actually means cook or toast. Then picture that “halt” means a stop such as a depot. Put this together. Suppose you have a river called Cook River that runs through a valley called Depot Valley. If such a place existed, then it would be true to say that cook (meaning warm) waters (meaning watering as it flows through depot (Depot Valley).

          This is just one example of how “WWH” could mean something different than the waters themselves halting. IMO

          • He does talk about don’t over cook my poem. Also says to us that we can’t leave any recipes out. Needs to be followed exact order. Recipes mix all wet ingredients together and dry ingredients separate.

  64. I thought about sweat as being “warm waters”, but — in the context of the poem — decided that
    something else is more likely to have been meant. As always, in my opinion.

  65. Oh what a lively discussion. …Lol….my trout walters fit me better than your warm water moccasins and mine are non-poisonous.

    I take ownership of all my typos in hopes of transparancy and I promise a chicken in evrry pot…..or was that pot to every chicken. I and many, many, many others will be glad when erection day is over.

    As for TROUT WATERS being related to WWWH….I’m stricken to my gums!

      • I think he took the blue pill. Guy, hopefully you don’t find the dog in the pot later but you might have to stoop to get on in the world.

        On the downside, this day is likely to last more than 4 hours.

  66. In my earlier thoughts about “Where warm waters halt,” I had thought about relationships between people, particularly about war. I had thought perhaps Cuba, NM (Cuba/Cuban Missile Crisis), to Los Alamos, NM where the nuclear bombs were made. Too much of an imagination? I don’t know, but still keep these thoughts in the back of my mind.

    • Along those lines… warm waters turned cold on long drive with bro, but then they warmed up again. A halt in time & memory is always a moving target.

  67. All kidding aside….all we have to do is figure out what and where the correct WWWH (WHERE WARM WATERS HALT) is located. During our hibernation period I am going to begin with the Land Of Enchantment and using the New Mexico Game & Fish maps showing warm/cold waters boundaries relating to “Special Trout Waters” and select some points to do BOTG for the coming thaw late next spring.

    Does anyone know of trout waters near Tierra Amirillo, home of “Cloud Man”
    (Eric Sloan)?

  68. For FF his WWH’ed each and every year in the fall when everything changed color and he had to leave Yellowstone. Could FALL come into play? Hopefully not down any canyons.

  69. One more time. WWWH 101. Hopefully a light bulb will click on and the propeller on the beanie cap will start spinning.
    Lets pretend we are looking at a “good map”. The only thing on the map are waterways. Stretches of the waterways are marked the color blue or red on this map. The stretches marked red are warm waters…..the streches mark blue are cold waters. Warm waters are where “warm water fish” live. Cold waters are where “cold water fish” (trout) live. Now to get to the place to BEGIN IT WHERE WARM WATERS HALT we start at strech thatis marked blue (where red halts = stops on the map). By contacting the DEPT. OF NEW

    MEXICO GAME AND FISH (biased opinion where the treasure is located) a map showing Cold and Warm Waters can be aquired

    BLINK…..the light bulb just can on.
    WHIZ-WHIZ-WHIZ….the propeller on my beanie cap just started spinning…..I am flying away to THE LAND OF ENCHANTMENT!

    • http://www.wildlife.state.nm.us/fishing/game-fish/warm-water-regulations/

      ~Warm waters include all streams, lakes, and ponds, except those designated as trout waters…

      Who places the designated areas? and have those areas changed since 1903?

      The thing is Mike { and you can go in any direction ya want } seeing the species {trout} enjoy cooler waters… why is it that only NM is the proper search area? fenn was a fishing guide for YSP and possibly the Greater YS area… why would this idea eliminate any remaining state?

      • Why?…..You say why? The list is a very long list of why New Mexico.
        Just a few reasons as follows and then others may
        chime in on their reasons why or not.
        1) In the beginning the book TTOTC was released at a small independant bookstore in New Mexico
        2) Forrest chose New Mexico as a place to live after the military….not Cody….not Denver….not Jellystone.
        3) For a verg long time Forrest has attended his Church in New Mexico (the mountains, the trees, the streams ofNew Mexico
        4) The treasure has always been in New Mexico and once the lid was closed the last time it has never crossed state lines for legal reasons related to gold.
        5) Home for supper without Peggy knowing he had hid it.
        These are just a few and as always the opion and opinion of myself….but not just myself alone.

        • I will have to disagree:
          1) In the beginning the book TTOTC was released at a small independant bookstore in New Mexico
          Ans) Probably because that was where Forrest lived. Had he lived in Colorado, it probably would have been in Colorado. Where the book debuted (to me) has no relevance to where Indulgence is.
          2) Forrest chose New Mexico as a place to live after the military….not Cody….not Denver….not Jellystone.
          Ans) Santa Fe was an art mecca – not Denver or Cody or “Jellystone.
          3) For a verg long time Forrest has attended his Church in New Mexico (the mountains, the trees, the streams ofNew Mexico
          Ans) And for many years “Jellystone” was his church – who says that he did not return.
          4) The treasure has always been in New Mexico and once the lid was closed the last time it has never crossed state lines for legal reasons related to gold.
          And) What legal reasons? There are no laws related to transporting gold across state lines – at least none that I am aware of.
          5) Home for supper without Peggy knowing he had hid it.
          Ans) Please show me where Forrest ever said this. Not true as far as I can gather.
          And these are just a few and as always the opion and opinion of myself (JDA)….but not just myself alone. -JDA

        • Well, no.#4 is wrong, and if that is the extent of your research, it’s hard to take you serious. We could all make arguments for our states. You are only talking about half the state, at least we have a full state in our discussions. You’re looking for trails and a forest, makes New Mexico an easy place. Highly doubtful.

          • poisonivey,

            The chest I believe is in a US Forest and there are plenty of those forests in the RM. Why in those forests is because they are public domain lands, they belong to all of us.

            Now, if you are in a state park or a national park one would have to report the find, because they belong to the state or federal government.

            Don’t discount any other state that is in the confines of the Chase’s map. Your reasons IMO are not valid because, by just because F’s residence and the book are in NM. I would suggest to broaden your search, you might be surprised with what you will find elsewhere..

            Just Say’n

          • CharlieM

            Rules and regulations change all the time… heck, at one time YS wanted to make it illegal or make a policy against fenn’s treasure hunting in the park.

            While I agree with a NF… my reasoning is different than policies or legality. I mean, fenn said once.. something to the affect.. some places searchers should stay on paths, YS is one of them. Does that eliminate YSP?

            Personally, I don’t think the chest is within the park, but again, my reasoning is different than legality. Yet, we do have fenn implying we should pay attention to those rules… right?

            The one thing I think we should keep in mind is; “What if there are no legal questions”?
            Seems to me if we can raise a questionable legal issue with our search location, we might want to think twice…

            I lean toward a couple things fenn has said;
            One being the comment about YS and staying on path. { I would assume that includes others of the same }.
            Another was; No one should take things off reservations { that’s a big No No in my book }
            Not under water… this one is a bit tricky. besides it’s a safety guide comment {and almost force to be stated}… most waters are under federal control. While I don’t know the legality of federal controlled water, I personally don’t think the chest would be on [ for lack of a better term ] island in a river, for example. I mean, counties and states can’t repair many bridges without involving the federal highway admn, that cross a federal waterway. This also may affect tributaries as well. { each searcher would need o make up their own minds… but mine is made up. }

            LOL those may shrink the searchable area some, but not enough to pick any individual state.
            In my personal opinion…

          • Seeker,

            Not all water is controlled by the Feds, maybe main rivers and others are controlled by states where there are water rights, that includes aquifers. Your right that the chest is not under water.

            I’m sure that F had spent money with his lawyer to ensure there would be no troubles with the one that finds the treasure. It seems logical that F wouldn’t want to see legal battles for the finder. IMO Now taxes are another issue.

            I agree with you mostly and I too have made up my mind.

            Cheers, Just Say’n

          • Not even worth responding to CM. You’ve obviously missed the whole thing. Lol, you suggest, that’s a good one…Like I would follow a suggestion from someone that has no idea….Lol, come on man…

          • poisonivey,

            You said, “Like I would follow a suggestion from someone that has no idea….Lol, come on man…”

            Come on, you like to bash people, Knock it off! You don’t even know me! If you know it all go get it!

            Show some respect , we all have different thoughts!!

          • Seeker…an observation about National Parks; at least the several in the West that I have more than a passing familiarity with. Hardly anyone goes off trail. It’s actually quite remarkable. For that reason alone, I think National Parks are still in play.

        • Guy,

          1 & 2 are interesting but not inclusive. I could say fenn just like warmer climate and NM was the most reasonable state to be near the RMs… that doesn’t really affect the challenge, right? Or the fact of fenn having “given” the books for sale to a single book store. We do know he didn’t take profits for the sales, However, we do know an agreement was set for a percentage to go to cancer funding… Could that be done with Amazon or a chain book store? IDK.
          3. Also involves the three other states… along with his dealing with museums and other interest in those states, while owning a plane that could take him in any of those states and done in a single day.
          4. That’s a huge statement… ya got any legal reason for that? Or any factual reason for what you said that “gold” never crossed state lines?
          5. Can you provide the quote… because this idea has been talked about before and I believe the outcome was others quoting an opinion of a searcher, rather than from fenn.

    • Guy…Listen good for the legendary “Taos Hum” (heartbeat of the Mother) and bring your waders. Hopper and dropper should still bring sweet results. Look for old inscriptions that have been colonized by colorful lichen. Good luck!!

  70. I think the fundamental mistake, IMO, with the Gardiner solve and/or the Madison solve is that the interpretation of the word “halt”. In those solves the warm waters of a certain river “MIXING” with the cold waters of another river was considered as “HALTING”. But I think that the movement of the water is not halted, but the warm waters continue to flow into the cold water.

    To be considered as a “halt”, or a “halted state”, the actual movement of the water should be stopped whether the stopping is done temporarily or permanently. When you hear somebody yell “HALT” in a movie scene, they all stop whatever they are doing and temporarily go into a stationary, non-moving state. Women are not starting to mingle with men, so to speak for example. The problem with the water in a river is that it cannot be in a non-moving state even for a second, unless the water is frozen instantly, or physically stopped after when it flows into a pool or a container. Or the flow direction can be changed after it is halted by some other means.

    I think the reason why Fenn said that a child can solve the first couple of clues is that a child may only interpret “halt” as “stop” not “mix”. What I’m saying is that a child may be able to nail down WWWH and TIITCD correctly, easier than an adult. I know it’s a funny irony that this is mentioned by Fenn, but some of the searchers IMO do not interpret the poem “straight forward” as Fenn also pointed out. We should rethink about the word “halt” and try to nail it down before we could go on to the home of Brown. Am I thinking too simple?

    Let me have your thoughts on this. Has somebody already mentioned and discussed about this previously?

    — MajinKing

    • MajinKing;

      Another way to look at it is this:

      Let’s say that Warmer River flows down hill. It merges with Cooler River.
      Once they merge is it now known as the Warmer/Cooler river? No, it is not. It is known only as the Cooler River.

      As an entity, the Warmer River ceases (or stops or halts) to exist. Its waters join the Cooler River, but from the point of merging (halting) those waters (the Warmer River waters) cease to exist as an entity.

      This may be what Forrest had in mind – Begin it at the point that the Warmer River Waters cease to exist as an entity. JMO – JDA

      • 2 questions JDA,
        Is this warmer river comfortable when swimming?
        Or does your solve shrink?

      • JDA,

        I prefer to think the water actually does halt or stop. This I am positive of that does happen most places in the RM.

        Where warm and cold meets to create the Madison the water is still very much moving. The water in most warm springs truly does not halt or stop.

        Just Say’n

        • I just don’t believe that the poem would leave us to randomly search places where warm water meets cold. Too random! FF has said that the words mean exactly what they say. I think the words tell us exactly where to start. If we are guessing, I think we are wasting our time. But, of course that is just my opinion. I apply this same opinion to the other clues in the poem. If we have to guess at a place that is not for the meek or track down something that means wise, etc then we don’t understand the poem. IMO

    • MK, I think we need to first agree on what warm waters are and what it is that is halting. Is it the flow or the warmth?

      • Hi Oz10,
        I think the flow, the movement of the water, is halting, not the warmth. The water temperature in JDA’s explanation is changing gradually, not abruptly, even though the name of the river changed, or halted.
        — MK

      • MK, ok the flow halts some way, but why are they described as warm and not just waters? Do we really need to stick our toes in the waters?

        • Hi Oz10, I think this refers to the actual temperature of the water. There are hot waters, warm waters, cool or cold waters in the RM. I think the temperature of the water generally relates to the elevation and the particular location of the body of water we’re talking about. The water just bubbled up from a spring at higher elevation is hot, and after some time the temperature of the water may get cooled so now it’s warm. When the water is at sufficiently low elevation it may be already cooled down, so it becomes cold. Make sense? — MK

          • MajinKing;

            Have you ever been to the Rockies? You say, ” I think the temperature of the water generally relates to the elevation and the particular location of the body of water we’re talking about. The water just bubbled up from a spring at higher elevation is hot,”

            Have you ever felt the temperature of a bubbling spring at elevation in the Rockies? It is cool, if not cold. Most springs are from where water has seeped into the earth from the snows of winter. Underground, it gets NO sunlight, therefore is COLD! Cold from the melted snow, and cold from being underground. People used to dig holes in the ground to preserve food because underground is cooler than above ground – usually about 55 degrees F.

            Only if the water seeps low enough, and comes closer to the magma at the center of the earth does it warm up – like in Yellowstone, and a few other places.

            So, the higher in elevation, the farther you are from the magma core, so the COLDER the water – not hotter. As Forrest says, a knowledge of geography will help – or something like that.

            Do a bit of research on Google – Just a suggestion – JDA

        • Hi Majink, if that is the case then it is a huge task to complete. Ok, we are not following any waters to where they halt, we are looking for warm in temperature waters.

          We will have to first determine those geysers/springs that produce enough boiling/hot water to travel while cooling off but still be warm (not cold) by the time they halt.

          How do we nail down the right (warm) temperature, do we go by scientific standards? What is warm for someone who lives in those parts will be freezing to me I’m sure. I’ll be the worst judge to that. One way to call it warm is if a light steam is still visible but for some that may still be hot. Also, I’m sure the time of the year will play a role in that too. Am I overthinking it?

          • Hi Oz10, and JDA,
            I think you may be absolutely right. Come to think of it Fenn may be referring to the water temperature during the summer (?). Or as most searchers think, the warm water refers to the rivers and other bodies of water eastside of the continental divide. Maybe I thought too easily. I’ve been in the RM only a couple of times, and I was just overlooking a couple of facts. Thanks for pointing that out.
            — MK

          • What if the general area of the search is actually the Yellowstone? Is my thinking right in that area? Or still wrong, JDA?
            — MK

          • MajinKing;

            There are a LOT of searchers is the Yellowstone area that would say that I was wrong – were I to say that Yellowstone is NOT where you should be looking. Better that you ask one of them.

            Forrest has said “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f What better advice can I give you? There HAS to be SOMETHING in the poem that will lead you to the correct WWWH. I think that I have found it, but I do not have the chest, so I could be wrong. YOU are the only one that can figure out what is right for YOU – JMO – JDA

    • Hi Trac, now you are halted at the warm waters. What are you going to do next, may I ask? — MK

      • I think you’d have to, take 1 tin (the can) yon down. I’m about to do that before making chili for dinner.

  71. Hi JDA,
    There is no reply button after your post, so this is for you.
    You said there must be something in the poem that will lead you to the correct WWWH, why not something in the book?

    • Dear Mr. Fenn,
      We are a group of avid elderly bridge players in San Diego who after reading your book hope to find your treasure. We are not into poetry as much as the memoir. We realize the clues are in the poem, but were wondering if there isn’t at least one clue in each chapter.
      Thank you for a great book
      Forrest’s succinct response:
      All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. f

      If “All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.” that is good enough for me – but what do I know? NADA – JDA

      • Thanks JDA,
        You have such quick access to all the good quotes….
        You’ve exactly made my point. We know WWWH is a clue, what we need are the subtle hints to figure out which is the right WWWH. If all we need is the poem why bother putting hints/clues in the book. What are the subtle hints used for anyways???

    • Eaglesabound,
      Im not JDA. But, I agree with him that there must be something in the poem that rells us the correct WWWH. Why not in the book? Because FF has said that the hints in the book at subtle. But, that everything we need is in the poem. I believe FF, and that is why I agree with JDA.

  72. Thanks Flutterby,
    What about the “Nope” quote?
    IMO, the treasure can not be found without the book. I believe there is confirming info/hints /clues that we need, in the book.
    Yes, he said all you need is the poem because the poem gives you the directions, but imo we are just throwing darts at WWWH without some help from the book with the subtle hints…

    • Eaglesabound: the poem has everything needed to avoid dart-throwing, AFAIC. The book(s) provide a wee bit of assurance that you aren’t smoking something legal in CA and CO.

      • Eagles: on my phone at the moment so hard to revisit quotes. If you post the Nope one from MW, I’ll tell you my loophole.

      • I agree with you Zaphod! Though I do think the hints in the book are a bit more helpful than that. I do not believe the book gives us the place WWWH. I think lots of folks believe it does. I think it only suggests a different way of thinking, rather than an actual place. IMO

  73. Sorry Zap,
    I’m also on my phone..
    But it’s something like if all you had was the poem and no back story, blah blah. …could you find the treasure…Thanks Nope,
    F says, thanks Nope, Nope..
    Where’s JDA when you need a quote..ugh

      • ***So I wrote a poem containing “nine clues” that if followed “precisely” will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.***

        Regardless of SF or North of, or in the mountains… those seem helpful, but are they truly ‘needed’?
        Apparently, we need to know there are ‘nine clues’… regardless of when fenn counted [ which he did after he finished the poem, the way he wanted it to be]… and, they need to be followed just like we are told to.
        That sentence tells of a treasure, of a certain number of clues [ rather than a poem with clues ] because they are in the correct order, compared to hints or clues [ call them what ya like ] “sprinkled” in the chapters… [ and not deliberately place to aid…}

        OK, so the book is needed. Otherwise we would not know of nine exact clues, followed exactly, as needed for the task.

        • Hello Forrest,

          If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?

          Thank you ~Nope
          Thank you Nope. Nope. f


          @)00:40 – They don’t need to read my book, but they need to read the poem. The book will help them, but they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues that are in the poem.…. @~ 2:55 – If you find the treasure chest it won’t be a big job for you to get it.….

          Steady as she goes Seeker….don’t let ’em spook ya! 🙂

          • The issue with that comment @00:40 radio interview is that there is an assumption that the reader already has the backstory regarding the clues needing to be deciphered.

            The nope-nope question has no backstory whatsoever. In 500 years someone picks up the 6 stanza poem from the floor and knows nothing, not even that there are clues there to solve.

      • I agree that a person would need to know that the poem was intended to lead you to the treasure. Since FF has said that there are lots of place WWWH, looking the world over would not be helpful. You would have to know that you were looking in the mountains north of Sante Fe. But, as far as the “backstory” goes, I think that is all you need. You couldn’t reasonably pick up the poem on a random post-it note somewhere and know it led to a treasure. You would need to know what it contained to figure out how to decifer it. IMO

        And; this comment is slightly on a different topic, but let me toss it out anyway since we are talking about mountains north of Sante Fe. I know people have quoted FF’s comment about there being lots of places WWWH and “most of them are north of Sante Fe”. So then I hear people say that the quote tells us there must be places WWH south of Sante Fe. That is not exactly true IMO. Just because he said “most of them are north of Sante Fe” does not mean he meant that any were south of Sante Fe. There are lots of places that are not either north or south of Sante Fe. So maybe he isn’t referring to south of Sante Fe containing any places WWH. Just a thought.

        • I agree that we don’t need to find examples of the correct WWWH south of Santa Fe.

          For the reason FB mentioned. Also,I doubt FF would give that as a hint. But most importantly for me is that there could be examples of WWWH south of Sante Fe without it being the type of WWWH we are looking for.

    • Hi Eagles — now that I have the full quote handy (thanks Idle, loco, all), I recall the issues (at least in my mind). First off, the poem by itself doesn’t unambiguously say anything about a hidden treasure at all — in the Rockies or anywhere. So you wouldn’t even know there ~was~ a treasure to search for. Secondarily (and less important, in my view) is knowing the treasure is hidden in the Rocky Mountains somewhere north of Santa Fe. Without this restriction, I believe there are too many additional places where warm waters halt that the problem becomes that much more impossible.

      • Zap, you said: the poem by itself doesn’t unambiguously say anything about a hidden treasure at all.

        That is true, especially without a title to hint to it. BUT, is it a stretch? Will it be impossible for some trained eyes 500 years from now with nothing but the poem (no backstory) to at least come up to the conclusion that the poem may or may not have literary value but instead seems to be a search of something valuable???

        The repetition alone will not raise an eyebrow?

        Keep a secret, Begin it, take it, not far, put in below, from there, the end drawing nigh, up your creek, found the blaze, look quickly down, your QUEST, marvel gaze, take it and go.

        Leave my TROVE for all to seek, will that not make anyone suspicious 500 years from now that maybe just maybe… plus we got treasures bold, hint of riches,take the chest and title to the gold.

        IMO the only backstory needed is ‘in the mountains north of Santa Fe’

        • I agree, Oz10, that at least one person in 500 years once given the poem can easily say that this could possible be, or is, a hint for a lost treasure.

          I think some are missing an important thing to think about with the nope, nope question and answer and how it moves with the other poem quote that Loco provided.

      • Zap, you’re kidding right?? ~ ‘First off, the poem by itself doesn’t unambiguously say anything about a hidden treasure at all’

        As I have gone alone in there
        And with my treasures bold, { treasures is mentioned}
        I can keep my secret where, {secret means hidden}
        And hint of riches new and old. {hint of.. indicates something need to be known of}

        Begin it where warm waters halt
        And take it in the canyon down,
        Not far, but too far to walk.
        Put in below the home of Brown.

        From there it’s no place for the meek,
        The end is ever drawing nigh;
        There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
        Just heavy loads and water high.

        If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, {a blaze give us something to find}
        Look quickly down, your quest to cease, { quest to cease means searching for something and the blaze gives that up}
        But tarry scant with marvel gaze, {marvel hints at; what it is that lures us – gold mention below}
        Just take the chest and go in peace. {chest indicates a container that hold treasures}

        So why is it that I must go
        And leave my trove for all to seek? { leave … to seek means to look for} [trove is of value}
        The answers I already know,
        I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.

        So hear me all and listen good,
        Your effort will be worth the cold.
        If you are brave and in the wood
        I give you title to the gold. {gold tell us what we are looking for as to what is it in the chest}

        Yep, no indication at all just with the poem…

        • Okay, yes — between treasures bold, trove, quest and others, one might be suspicious 500 years from now that a physical treasure was indeed hidden somewhere. But would you search for it? You don’t even know what it looks like or if it’s worth anything. But most importantly, Forrest thinks something critical is missing if all you have is the poem. What do YOU think it is? If you think that it’s the bit about it being in the mountains north of Santa Fe, then I gather you believe that without that restriction there are too many other possibilities in the world that could match the clues.

          • But would you search for it?

            The motivation is something to think about. If we know that something was hidden somewhere north of Santa Fe but we didn’t know what, will we look for it?

            If we didn’t know there are clues in the poem that will take us to a bronze chest full of gold worth a million or two, then maybe not.

          • The important question is like Zap said: what do you think the restriction is in the nope, nope question that isn’t in the other questions and answers about the poem being enough in itself to find the treasure.

            The question on if you would search for the treasure 500 years from now if you just saw the poem isn’t a very important question to answer when trying to figure out how to find it now or then.

          • “Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and [think of looking for] your treasure chest?”

            – I suppose it’s not completely UNreasonable.

            “Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and *find* your treasure chest?”

            – Given that qualifier “reasonably” I don’t see how the answer could be anything but “nope”.


          • Then again, what do we know of what will be important to people 500 to a thousand years from now? Maybe they won’t care about gold and/or everything in the chest will be worthless to them. Some might still have the sense of adventure and will want the opportunity to decipher this thing.

            If they have no backstory but just by reading the poem can come up with the assumption that something is hidden, regardless if it is a box full of gold or a love message in a bottle, what else will they need? They need to know that it is in the mountains north of Santa Fe and they have to be convinced that the poem will take them to a place precisely.

          • We have the luxury of knowing the things that f has said about the poem which he has basically said the poem is all you need to find the tc. It’s all in the poem.

            So, we get to kinda be in a time warp. We get with the hypothetical nope, nope question a look into the future where no one can solve the poem to find the tc without all the backstory.

            You have to ask yourself what constitutes all of the backstory?

            Many searchers feel that stanza 1 is just an introduction or prelude. To me that would be considered backstory. If it is just backstory, then you can’t solve the poem.

            Therefore, the first stanza has to provide a hint while cloaked by backstory, prelude or introduction to help the clues, imo.

          • Zap ~ ‘But would you search for it?’

            I’ve said it before and will say it again, if this was a box of marbles we all seek, this would be a quiet blog. The same concept would relate to the city of Troy and many thought it was jut a myth. Or how about the Beale’s gold mystery? True, a myth?
            You may not try, but others would give it a go.

            In 500 years would fenn’s chase be just as popular as today? I doubt it because much of what we know might be lost to time or buried so far in a mass of information overload it would be much harder…{ If all someone could have is a 500 year old poem.}
            But, that doesn’t mean someone couldn’t figure out it was a treasure hunt, just by reading the poem.

            They just wouldn’t know of exactly what treasure or when or where or that nine clues are needed… Unless that person[s] was smart enough to conclude that from the poem.. which the poem does explain; there’s a chest with gold out there to be found and the poem that should take them to it.

            What I think is missing from Nope’s question or anyone 500 years later only having the poem is; that there are 9 specific pieces of information that need to be known of exactly as fenn intended. That is offered solely from the book.

            Today’s searcher is just lucky enough to have the book and fenn’s involvement… but tomorrow’s searcher that only came across a poem would have a much more difficult time, but not an impossible task… imo. Not unlike what we were told of at the beginning in 2010.

            It not a matter of IF they would try… many have quit the challenge because it’s not that easy, already.
            It a matter of dedication. Not unlike the ‘amateur’ archeologist who finally discovered the City of Troy, looking at it from a different perspective, when all the pro’s gave up, calling it a myth.

            You can call that… the guy who could ‘adjust’ best, if ya like.

          • Hi Seeker: I think knowing that there are 9 clues in the poem will ultimately turn out to be one of the least important pieces of information in the Chase. If someone amended the original question about “no back story” to include that there are 9 clues in the poem, I think Forrest’s answer would still be “Nope.”

          • Zap,

            So we can skip that intro sentence to the poem, that explains we need to follow a certain amount of correct pieces of information exactly as the poem explains?
            Ok sure…
            Where do we start with the backstory ~ better yet, What exactly would that “backstory” be?
            I mean, how could fenn even know what Nope meant by ~ backstory?
            Cancer, the book, a story in the book, the first arrow head that kick started a kids adventure, collecting, exploring, making marbles, being an art dealer, an amateur archeologist, knowing celebrities and politicians, YS, WYS, where grizzlies habitat, L&C, being a pilot, serving in the military, having fun watching gypsies dance… [ personally, I’d start there ]. Just getting folks off electronic devices, Dying / Death, taking it with him?

            What exactly is the backstory that Nope was referring to?

          • Seeker:

            “So we can skip that intro sentence to the poem, that explains we need to follow a certain amount of correct pieces of information exactly as the poem explains? Ok sure…”

            No — All I’m suggesting is that if all you have is the poem PLUS the extra info that there are 9 clues in it (as opposed to 6 or 15 or whatever), then that’s still not enough for success — that Forrest would still say “Nope” to Nope if that one extra bonus was thrown in. Hey, I’ll even toss in the bit about “end of my rainbow”. Still not enough. I think Forrest would say that something more substantial from “the backstory” is needed.

            You threw out a bunch of examples of backstory data points, so I might as well give my opinion on those:

            1. Cancer: nope
            2. The book: nope (Forrest has said you don’t need it)
            3. A story in the book: nope (somewhat by virtue of #2)
            4. The first arrow head that kick started a kids adventure: nope
            5. Collecting, exploring, making marbles: nope
            6. Being an art dealer: nope
            7. An amateur archeologist : nope
            8. Knowing celebrities and politicians: definitely nope
            9. YS (sic): maybe
            10. WYS (sic): maybe, but probably not
            11. where grizzlies habitat: nope (specialized info)
            12. L&C: nope
            13. Being a pilot: nope
            14. serving in the military: nope
            15. having fun watching gypsies dance: nope (again per #2)
            16. Just getting folks off electronic devices: nope
            16. Dying / Death, taking it with him?: nope

            I think far more helpful would be knowing something simple like the NAME of the author of the poem and when he lived. Or knowing that a treasure chest was hidden by him somewhere in the Rocky Mountains (even without the Canada, Idaho and Utah exclusions and the more than 66,000 links north of Santa Fe clue, and the altitude limits).

            February 4th is not that far away. Maybe Jenny can update Nope’s question to include a single sentence like “Forrest Fenn hid a treasure chest in the Rocky Mountains early in the 21st century and wrote the following poem which contains all the clues necessary to find it.” Then ask Forrest if that’s sufficient for the searcher in the year 2519.

          • Zap… The infamous *Nope* Q unfortunately falls into that same category of *poorly worded*. I’ll qualify this by saying that ANY question is a GOOD one…. however… we have learned that questions to Fenn had better be very concise if one is looking for a clear answer. Even then, who can be sure? Nope’s question has the added feature of two examples of the *backstory*… rocky mountains north of Santa Fe and 9 clues. Because of this fact I believe that it is risky to assume what exactly Fenn answered. For my own purposes, I only assume there is *something* from the backstory necessary to succeed, and let the poem do it’s job. I’ll say again that Fenn has told searchers *how to do it*.

  74. The poem puts one on a quest, gives directions ( in what ways is part of the puzzling ), mentions trove, riches, and treasures, which can be ambiguous… and has a line about taking the chest. Any or all may be read per se as hinting toward something hidden, so could be seen as possibly leading to a treasure.

    As well, if one, having nothing to start but the poem, gets an idea that the poem contains information to a hidden treasure, they might be willing to put enough effort forward to discover clues. Personally, I probably would not put forth enough effort without the context of The Thrill of the Chase book.

    • JDA posted a later comment from Fenn that is similar to this… I like this one because of it’s vintage. This takes all of the guess work out of the equation as far as I am concerned about *how to do it*. 5/15/2011
      “Well in my book there’s a poem, like I said. And there are nine clues in the poem. And the clues are in consecutive order. If you read that- if you want to find the treasure chest you have my book there, I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally. The poem, and the rest of the book. And then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times. Study every line. Every word. Then after you do that, read the book again slowly with the idea of looking for clues or hints that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.”
      Notice the line where Fenn says to look for clues or hints that are in the book that will **help you FOLLOW the clues**. No mention of answers to what the clues may be… just indicators that will *HELP FOLLOW* the clues. If folks want to go down the path of thinking only the poem is needed… that will be their decision… but do not forget what Fenn’s recommended *research materials* are. Have a nice day everyone…

      • Error…the date for this is 5/13/2011 interview by Lorene Mills. The actual video is worth watching…especially when Fenn says “… consecutive order… ” Watch his hand gesture.

      • Ken,
        In the most logical thinking… the book should give some perspective on how we should think, learn, utilize information in the attempt to figure out the clues in the poem. [and as you implied, not blatantly tell us an answer]
        Here’s the kicker… “to **find** the chest” all that information is in the poem. [ it’s all about how the poem does it job ].
        So one way to look at it is; the book could help with figuring out ‘the location the search takes place.’
        Another is; the sentence that intro’s the poem tell is 9 pieces of information that ‘needs’ to be followed…

        In the mountains N.of SF isn’t really a clue, imo. The book seems to explain the mountains are a factor, in the preface. “My church is in the mountains..” so one could see the poem relating to the RM’s only for the fact the book tell of fenn’s home in SF… its an easy conclusion. But that doesn’t get ya closer. [ only some folks only want to be lead by a lease and not think ].

        However, without knowing of 9 specific ‘clues’ needed to be done exactly as told, that apparently even fenn had to follow when he hid the chest, the reader would be screwed. But that doesn’t get anyone closer knowing that either… that’s the job of the clues… ALL the information TO FIND the treasure chest is IN the poem.

        The simplest idea is … The ‘path’ [imo, the correct order of the clues] will not be direct for those who don’t know the location… IF, IF, IF the poem doesn’t produce that location… then the book should help with it, line of thinking.
        Nope’s question, in my mind, eliminated the whole point of the poem.. it contains 9 clues that are needed for deciphering, to follow the correct path… { again, a path / steps / tracks / instructions, that fenn seemingly followed as well because there is no other way – only he already knew where is all takes place }

          • LOL… Not in an outhouse is a clue to, right? Or not in Nevada is a clue aslo… Right.
            Do go where an 80 can’t go… Are they really clues…

          • LOL, here is a concept you like, ‘useless clues’.

            The 80 year old clue is useful just as not below 5k or above 10.2k The truth is there if not in spirit…

          • Oz,
            That’s what I call a subtle hint. fenn stated a couple of times in about be almost 80. Common sense says don’t go looking where an 80 yr [ even fit man ] can’t go.
            LOL I highly doubt most on this blog could travel down and up a canyon twice in one afternoon, carrying a heavy backpack, nevertheless those of us with a bit more, err maturity under our belts, than some of the younger folks in the chase.

            But I’m talking about what is mostly in the book, rather than the ATF, that give us those notions of what to do and what not to do, line of thinking. If using the ATFs as a check and balance.. we should be able to connect those thoughts with the book and poem, is what I’m talking about. IMO, the book hints at; don’t go where a 80 yr can’t. But some folks here need fenn to spit it out for them.

            Kinda like having to tell folks “not underwater” It doesn’t take a rocket scientist do figure out 42 lbs is a heavy anchor… like an 80 yr old [ even fit man ] is going to carry a million plus of gold, in an unlock chest into water to hide it [ even if it was done chest first and contents second… lol even that is a ridiculous notion to attempt. Or that a three year old would need some assistance to get to the chest, under water… in a tree, or repelling a shear drop off…

            This might be why fenn stated; don’t be target fixated and complacency kills a good plan / solve. But again, not so much clues as just common sense if ya take the time to think about it all.

      • ken, that’s a good video to watch. Those are the original instructions, no mention of research materials like good maps or google earth, also nothing about geography. It is all about the poem and the book. And I see what you mean with the hand gesture.

        • Oz10… It took me a long time to buy TTOTC because I paid too much attention early on listening to others. Am I sorry? Nope… this whole Chase is a *learning* curve. There are no short cuts and folks need to find their own way in order to succeed.

  75. I think that the notion one must have the book with it’s unintended subtle hints that may help, providing one can recognize those subtle hints is not necessary in order to find the tc. It maybe in 500 years from now that the back story may not be needed, because of more advanced technology.

    If all that you would really need is the poem and a good map, would be completely true. I’m sure that WWWH would be immediately recognized that a map and comprehensive knowledge of geography would be needed, its a no brainier. As far as needing to know there are 9 clues would be out and all one needs to do is follow the directions given. Remember F first wrote the poem and when it was finished he realized there are 9 clues. He didn’t build the poem based on the clues but directions.

    Over all I strongly believe that one can find the treasure with only the poem and a map.

    Just Say’n

    I can’t reply back for a while as I am picking up a friend at the hospital.

    • Hi Charlie,

      “Emily, All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search.” f – 4/4/2013

      “There are nine clues in the poem but if you read the book, uh, there are a couple. There are a couple of good hints, and then there are a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge” – Moby Dickens 11/2/2013

      How good is good? What if all you need to summit Pikes Peak was a good pair of shoes, a good breakfast, and some time. Now if there was a car at your disposal at your starting point that was not deliberately placed there to aid you (but there none the less). It might not be easy to find initially (the equivalent of subtle) but if you do find it you’ll it will benefit you getting to the summit. Is it worth finding it and using it?

      I’m guessing the hints are worth looking for

  76. Hi CharlieM,
    I’m not sure what quote you see the word “unintended “subtle hints…
    The book says “other subtle clues sprinkled in the stories”.
    Unintended means he didn’t mean to put them there, I don’t think that’s the case…

  77. I also think that one can find the chest with only the poem and a map. If you can access the map through Google map or Google Earth on your computer, you don’t need a map, either. So you only need a poem. I think at this point it doesn’t matter whether you can find and identify 9 clues in the poem or 8 or even 7 as long as you can nail down the WWWH and HOB and be able to find the blaze. In that sense I strongly think the key for the poem is “the home of Brown”. If you pinpoint where the home of Brown is you will be able to go to the blaze and find the chest confidently according to Fenn.

    I don’t have any books or know much history, but I think I have identified the starting point, put in point and found the blaze. But that’s it. You need to go out there on your BOTG to actually play the end game once you find the blaze to retrieve the chest. In my current solve I can see WWWH and the blaze from the home of Brown. Also from the blaze I can see WWWH and the home of Brown. And from WWWH I can also see the blaze and the home of Brown.

    From WWWH I can see the part of the creek (not for the meek creek, and no paddle up your creek). I know that my current solve could be just another empty solve until I find the TC, but I’m pretty sure that the probability of finding the TC is more than 50% IMO. I also think that I know the exact spot where Fenn mentioned about searchers walked right by the TC.

    — MajinKing

          • Hi Jake,
            Of course it depends on the individual solve. It means that the probability of finding the TC of the most search until now is lot less than 50%, I guess.
            — MK

          • Jake,
            I’ll include myself in the almost 100% chance of being wrong. Just being realistic, this is a really hard puzzle.

            I know my ideas aren’t popular around here, but I’d rather be generating original ideas that lead me to places that haven’t been searched 100 times before. I’ll also admit to intentionally sounding a bit crazy for the fun of it, for example suggesting that no place for the meek involves a scary little lamb. Dal moderated that one. I guess he thought I was trolling. He wasn’t that far off, I’ve done some fishing with twisted takes on my solution as bait to see if anyone else has similar ideas. So far no nibbles.

        • If you’re pretty sure of it, then maybe you should get the 3 million dollar prize right now, otherwise you must not be “pretty sure”.

          • Hi Jake,
            You’re absolutely right. Actually I had a chance to go out there on my BOTG two months ago, but due to couple of reasons I couldn’t make it. And I can’t go out there now since most of the search area is already covered by snow I guess and I don’t want to risk my neck for that even if it’s 3 million dollars. I have to wait until next spring or summer to find out, but again I’m not sure that I will be able to do that. I know that all my posts are just my dreams until I actually get the TC. Do not be offended by my words. If somebody can be able to retrieve the TC (before I have the TC) with the help from my posting, that is quite acceptable to me and I’ll give my sincere congratulation to him.

            I just want to inject a fresh idea and thought so that this chase community can find the TC in near future.

            — MK

          • I got no beef with injecting fresh ideas, but to say you’re pretty sure is being fresh the other way around and I’m not offended, just tired of hearing the same old…. I’m pretty sure…. I know where it is…. etc….

            BTW roads and temperatures of route numbers is not new here. Keep sharing but don’t be tooo sure.

  78. I’m fairly new to the chase, and I truly have enjoyed the posts on this and other forums regarding Forrest Fenn. I had a thought that has been nagging at me since I first started looking into the possible solves, and I wanted to pick the brains of others who may have already gone down this rabbit hole…
    Hwy 212 (212 degrees F is the temp that water boils) and it “halts” at Tower Junction in Wy.
    What about this for WWWH?

    • Hi NB76,
      My WWWH is also in Wy., but mine has nothing to do with the boiling temperature of the water and it doesn’t halt at TJ.
      — MK

    • If you’re a nurse then you should know that boiling water is not warm and enough of it could poach a person.
      Even though it’s a highway and not a temperature, maybe it should be a warm degree or at least comfortable.

      • Geeez, how hard is it to understand warm waters is liquid, and halts being that, at 212 degrees as it turns into a gaseous state.
        Bill76 seems to be implying the idea that should WWH be a place where waters stops being water because of a certain the temp 212… the road [212] does the same thing.. stops at a certain place., line of thinking.

        Bill, this is a stretch at best, if i read your idea correctly. I’m reminded of a comment fenn said; there are many WWH in the RM’s…
        Your scenario would need more of the same… other roads with 212 related to it… and if that is possible [ within the RM’s ] how would you know which one to go to?
        There’s 68 miles of rt 212 within WY, so I’m only curious where your next clue is at, that you have to stop at?

        • Seeker,
          Im sure someone will correct me if Im wrong. But, Im pretty sure the quote, “There are lots of places WWWH” did not say lots of places in the Rocky Mountains. I think it just says “lots of places WWWH” “most of them are north of Sante Fe” has led people to state that there also must be places south of Sante Fe, yet still in the Rocky Mountains. I think that is an assumption that might not turn out to be true. Maybe the other places WWH are around the world in various countries. The fact that “most are north of Sante Fe” does not state that the other places are even in the Rocky Mountains. IMO which Im sure someone will correct if Im wrong.

    • Welcome to the Chase, NurseBill76. Hwy 212 through Yellowstone has been suggested fairly often over the years for the reason you latched onto. But keep in mind that nowhere in Wyoming does water boil at 212 F — the whole state is well above sea level so water’s boiling point is lower. Also, since the chest is somewhere above 5000 feet elevation, in none of the four states does water have that high a boiling point. That said, 212 F (or 100 C) is something a child would know and be able to quote, so it’s not that farfetched. Still, 212 is a tad above what most would consider “warm,” and certainly above what Forrest would call “comfortable.”

      • Zap ~ ‘ Still, 212 is a tad above what most would consider “warm,” and certainly above what Forrest would call “comfortable.” ‘

        Ok maybe I’m bonkers, but I think Bill implied; water at any temperature stops being water at its boiling point… The “boiling point” is the answer to the clue – in this theory- which would refer to rt 212 as a place on a map… no water is involved, the deciphered clues is a road.

        I’m not diggin it, but it’s not a hard concept to understand… there’s no water. IF I git the gist of Bill’s post.

        LOL maybe conformable is; that warm fuzzy feeling fenn might get when he’s ‘driving through the clues’

        • Seeker,
          Yes, thank you for the response..You are picking up what I’m laying down about the first clue not actually being water, but a concept of it..warm water (or hot) halts at 212 degrees. It is no longer water but gas.
          As for where to “begin it”, Hwy 212 begins in Minnesota and ends (halts) at Tower Junction in Wy. So thats where I started looking.
          From there, we have two distinct Canyons, either from the YellowStone River or Lamar River…both have potential solves for the remaining clues.
          The one thing I’m certain of, everyones solve is wrong until Indulgence is in hand..but I love the speculation and thought that goes into the chase 🙂

          • But Bill, that is not correct. Water is water, whether it’s a solid, liquid, or gas. So to get hwy 212 from water halting at 212 degrees would be wrong and therefore the idea would need to be supported another way. Liquid water is H2O, steam is H2O(g), it does not halt being water, and, we all no, that water molecules do not ever halt.

            If you write up your solve, and say to begin at hwy 212 because water halts at 212 degrees, then you are starting off on the wrong foot, does not sound like something that would be nailed down. So, picking Tower Junction to start would be the equivalent to throwing a dart, nothing to support starting there. Sorry, I also think f would make it a little tougher then that. IMO, wwh will have many support pieces of info that make up that one clue. IMO, wwh has roughly 9 hints that make up the one clue. And that is to say that wwh cannot be solved, so go figure. Good luck.

          • To add, if you are looking to start at hwy 212, IMO, I would look to see if it intersects with a dormant geyser system. In that area, you find a geyser that no longer erupts could be taken as it’s warm water has halted. Then, that could support your reason for starting there. Does hwy 212 cross Veterans Memorial hwy? That may be another possible, but referencing boiling water halting, can’t see it. Research different phases of water for better info.

          • Poisonivy ~’Liquid water is H2O, steam is H2O(g), it does not halt being water, and, we all no, that water molecules do not ever halt.’

            Umm, err, nope… Liquid water is a liquid, a gaseous state is just that… frozen if frozen.
            “warm” might be the indicator to the idea of all liquid waters that halt being a liquid..H20 ‘G’

            OK look at it this way… if you have a step in a puddle of water your shoe will get wet. When that puddle evaporates.. the water stops being a liquid and is now a gas that is lighter than air… so if you step in the same spot, you’re only stepping in a hole, not water. Warm waters that halt / spot being a liquid. Only Bill takes it a step further… He probably asked himself; what stop the waters from being a liquid? One answer is it turned gaseous.. how does that happen?

            Two things occur; evaporation or it boiling point [bot a gaseous state of waters.]
            Bill took the boiling point of 212 and gave it a place on a map.
            Not unlike others use frozen waters for the idea of GNP… in both scenarios “warm” waters stop being a Liquid and produce a location.
            Again, the idea is that “warm” represents “waters” as a liquid, yet the clue reference is not about water… its about a “place” to start. To discover the “Place” we would need to know **what cause the ‘Liquid’ to *stop* being a liquid.**
            In Bill’s case; he went with the boiling point 212. Then looked on a map for “212”
            I don’t care for the process, but it is a simple conclusion… the idea of… try and simplify the clues. The idea is elementary…

        • Seeker you said: Again, the idea is that “warm” represents “waters” as a liquid, yet the clue reference is not about water… its about a “place” to start. To discover the “Place” we would need to know **what cause the ‘Liquid’ to *stop* being a liquid.**

          What about an evaporation reservoir? Some are south of but most are north of… Then again, is it not a dam? I always wondered why ff wasn’t happy with disclosing that as a clue. That was somewhere in an interview, he had to do it to level the playing field but he wished he hadn’t. What are your thoughts?

          • Oz,

            I’m up and down with a ‘natural’ reservoir, line of thinking. For me that’s just a lake, only utilized for the masses how live in the area… piped in water to homes.
            For a reservoir to be WWH, wouldn’t there be more to why “a” reservoir and not a lake?

      • I understand the obvious reason for most of the WWWH debate to focus on physics and water’s properties, but is that the only perspective we should consider?

        Recall this comment from Forrest (Fire):
        “… To my knoyledge that’s the only PO box I have now. The other one I had halted when hot water poured out of my hot water heater onto the cold cement floor.”
        ( dalneitzel.com/2013/12/28/the-nine-clues-2/#comment-42292 )

        Forrest mentions “hot” and “cold” in this statement, and there’s a reason we have both hot and cold water lines to interior faucets in the home, but is that what’s really important here? As we interpret and deduce any of the poem’s clues, what do we glean from the following, surrounding, or previous clues, and what is our mindset or, perhaps more appropriately, what are our mindsets? All the poem’s roads lead to F’s intended meaning, and that’s another guessing game based on available information and subsequent conjecture.

        Final thoughts:
        – What we perceive is based, in part, on our perspective, and if we change our perspective, we can or will change our perception.
        – If we choose to question what we perceive, can or does that change our perspective?

        • Hiding the treasure was something else. A few weeks after they told me I was critically ill I wanted to strike out at the tradition that proclaims when a man dies all of his spiritual being halts. At my secret hiding place, as I was closing the chest for the last time, I felt part of me slip inside and become part of the treasure, or at least I thought I did. I’m okay with that now. f

          Question posted 7/8/2014: http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

          • warm waters; 98 degrees halts at death?
            Closing the chest [ lets call that a lid ] for the last time… slipped inside.. became a part of…
            A spiritual ritual to take it with you?!

          • whenever this topic arises I think back to my water bed days. Living down south at the time and the hot weather made sleeping *uncomfortable* occasionally. Keeping the temperature at 85 degrees actually had a cooling effect…sometimes too cool.

        • The warm water halts when his 50cents worth is used up. …. So, West Yellowstone. Though, I also wonder if prisoners get cold showers . Funny if the start place was a penitentiary.

    • NurseBill, I like your idea especially cause it kinda resonates with something a kid will rationalize (maybe). Would the road keep the number for hundreds of years? I don’t know. Keep at it, rabbit hole or not.

  79. The secret hidey place is “dear” to FF, but the clue sites had to be utilitarian to the poem.

    The description, WWWH, had to be true, but deviously clever. It is probably well known, maybe even a little touristy. I don’t think it’s a fishing demarkation somewhere out in the woods. Just IMO, OS2.

  80. OS2,
    I agree with your comment about WWH being true but a bit clever. I think FF chose this place because it is uniquely WWWH. I also think this place is a dychotomy. Just my opinion

      • MK,
        If you have to ask what the dychotomy is, you dont understand the poem in my opinion. Since water doesnt actually ever stop monving, we need a place where water is both stopped and not stopped simultaneously. A distance (not measured in inches, feet, miles, etc) that is both near and yet too far to walk. There are at least nine dychotomies in this poem, in my opinion. If you cant find a place where they all line up, you cant solve the poem IMO.

  81. I believe that wwwh stands for a very common place and there are many of them. His specific wwwh is very special to him, but has changed over the years. It puts you about a mile from the hidey spot, which is too far to walk with the weight of the treasure.
    Just my opinion,
    Happy Thanksgiving everyone!

    • What is a common place, Luckydog?
      A waterfall, lake, ocean, a highway number, a pond, a river….

      • Hi Seeker,
        I think you have correctly mentioned one of the common or famous WWWH possibilities.
        — MK

      • Seeker,
        If I told you, you would say I was crazy. My hidey spot has never changed, but until I recently heard F discuss a place he spent a lot of time at, I could never figure out a wwwh. (He confirmed that he had spent a lot of time only a mile from my spot. I always figured that he did, but I finally got confirmation)
        Mine is not a “normal” solve.

        • How large is your idea of the hidden spot?
          Heck… I’d just grid search the place for a week or two if I had any idea of the hidey spot.

          • I am guessing a lot of people have done just that but not in the right spot. Plus how many people can afford to go for 1-2 weeks at a time?

          • I firmly believe that if you think you have a general location, it will do no good to do a grid search. FF has clearly stated the way is sure for those who solve the poem. I think that if we have a correct solve, we dont need a grid search. However, I recently read a quote that FF said he had been in one of my search areas frequently. I was a bit surprised. But, knowing this doesnt help at all. I still need a complete solve. IMO

          • Well Seeker; That is my current plan for the spring or early summer. Go there, camp out and search for as long as it takes, to find it, or convince myself that “It just ain’t there”. By next spring, I will have invested over 40 months of my quickly waning life – Time to find it, or move on – JDA

          • Idle… I don’t think it matter to fenn how long someone has to search. But My Point to Lucky was if anyone can narrow down a hidey spot { lucky dog; My hidey spot has never changed }.

            I would assume that is not a big area… So, just go there and stay until that small area is turned over good.

    • Hi luckydog,
      You said “It puts you about a mile from the hidey spot, which is too far to walk with the weight of the treasure.”
      Do you have a specific explanation for a mile? Why not two miles?
      — MK

  82. Begin it where warm waters halt = The Gravy Boat
    Take it in the canyon down = The dressing in the bird
    Not far but to far to walk = Condition after eating
    Put in below the home of Brown = Pumpkin Pie Pan
    From there its no place for the meek = gorging sweet potatoes
    There will be no paddle up your creek = Cranberry Sause
    If you have been wise and found the blaze = Green Bean Casserole
    Look quickly down your quest to cease = Always room for Jello
    If you are brave and in the wood I give yoj title to the gold = Sitting at the table with giant warm homemade dinner rolls.

  83. I think there has been a ton of discussions about Fenn’s choice of the word “halt” until now, not only on this site but also on all other website forums and discussion areas. I’m not sure whether some of the searchers have correctly interpreted and haven’t mentioned about it intentionally or not, but not many searchers are commenting about this. I wonder why.

    I would like to inject another reasoning why we have to interpret this clue more carefully in order to nail down the correct starting location. Because some particular searchers mentioned in Fenn’s comment about 200′ and 500′ have IMO correctly interpreted this first clue and were able to closely approach to the TC within that distance.

    I think that (1) Fenn has carefully chosen this word to convey his intention of giving us a hint to find the correct spot which is important, (2) he has emphasized that doubly clear by intentionally breaking the rhyme of that stanza, (3) he wanted to point out the dynamic, and sudden, aspect of the warm waters by the word “halt”, (4) by using the word “halt” he also wanted us to pay attention to the temporary status of the warm waters, (5) the warm waters have to flow in a different direction after the waters pass the “halting” condition, whatever that condition is. The waters also may continue to flow in the same direction.

    — MajinKing

    • MK;

      You say, ” Because some particular searchers mentioned in Fenn’s comment about 200′ and 500′ have IMO correctly interpreted this first clue and were able to closely approach to the TC within that distance.”

      So, it I read you correctly, you are saying that WWWH is within 200′ or 500′ of the TC. What about “Not far, but too far to walk?” is 200′ 04 500′ “Too far to walk”? What about the meek place – END – No paddle creek and HLnWH – that sure is a lot of “Stuff” to cram into 200′ or even 500′ – Don’t you think? – Just askin – JDA

      • JDA,
        I also think the TC is within a very short distance of WWWH & HOB. Im pretty sure that if people think “Not far, but too far to walk” is talking about a literal distance that is too far to walk” do not understand. This statement needs to be read and understood differently IMO. Wouldnt be surprised if this is where people who left the poem. IMO

      • Hi JDA,
        I think you misinterpreted my comment. I didn’t say that WWWH is 200′ or 500′ from the TC. What I said is that since they were able to solve the first clue correctly, (and then a couple of clues after that) they ended up at a certain place (which is close to the TC within 500′ or 200′), were able to take pictures what they saw, and sent them to Fenn. According to my current solve the distance from WWWH to the blaze is around 1/2 mile. And in my previous comment (not sure whether on this discussion or not) I also said that my blaze can be seen from WWWH. Does that help you?
        — MK

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