Where Warm Waters Halt…

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This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion continue…

dal…

225 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…

  1. frank;

    I am sorry, I just can not follow your logic – from the last thread. If your logic makes sense to you – Go for it! I wish you the best – it is NOT necessary for me to understand your logic, I can barely understand my own – JDA

    • ” Go for it! I wish you the best ”
      River Bathing is Best.
      There’s nothing better than best and this means being #1.

  2. I have searched Sinks Canyon with Thermopolis being WWWH, Kirwin area, the Ice Slough on the OR Trail, the Sweetwater entering the Pathfinder and flowing into the Fremont Canyon and another location I am going back to. The treasure is getting to see all these places or even knowing about them. Mr. Fenn has let me spend tourist dollars in WY!

  3. FF says he stays 13 yo in his mind.Think like a 13 year old! FF says imagination is key!
    Everything with this treasure hunt runs into a quinkie dink! Google 1943 cartoon “imagine” and FF was 13 yo at the time.

    • There’s no “start here” with Home of Brown. Forrest has repeatedly said if you don’t have the first clue, you have nothing — and Home of Brown is not the first clue. “You may as well just home and play Canasta.”

    • You know most of the words in the poem have other words in them don’t you? Like ,
      Begin it where warm waters halt
      “Be in her arm”
      Or how about?
      Begin it where warm waiters halt?
      Lol
      There’s so many words in the poem that have so many different words in them, some up to three words.
      But then again.
      “Don’t mess with my poem”
      I will give you a simple imaginative little solve.
      Great sand dunes! Medano Creek. Here is an unique example of times 2 warm waters halt. First the creek medano that is, keeps the sand dunes in check! Also medano creek comes water in surges! Okay ? And if you take the canyon down a bit you’ll find the BROWN capped Finch. (They nest on the canyon walls with mud nest) and if you were to find this special place lol it’s definitely no place for the MEEK! Bird crap everywhere! There’s 1000’s of nest! Nothing but heavy loads and water high! Nitrogen and phosphorus! Oh trust me you better look quickly down! DONT LOOK UP! Lol the blaze you ask???? Well the dark canyon walls are covered in a glowing whiteish blaze. Has anyone ever flown? If I was wanting to bleach my bones well hello. Now I ask do you have a imagination? And nobody is going to be brave enough to happen upon that chest. I love the thrill of the chase!

      • anyone looking for Lewis and Clark should get this note.”boiling pine needles to make coffee will bring on Sudden cardiac arrest” Now get on your Google map. Or map quest. Start at PINE Colorado or pine needles Colorado. “There is only one;” no other pine in any other state. Take the pine valley canyon down, “driving” it’s too far to walk. Turn off put in is home of Brown”Buffalo Creek” from there it’s no place for the MEEK. Joseph MEEK. It is REDSKIN CREEK. The end is ever drawing nigh. you will see it’s close on the left. And since your driving along side the creek of course there’s no paddle up your creek. And you are traveling up the creek driving. So there’s just heavy loads “ton” water high ” welling” it is lake “Wellington”
        If you want to know the parking lot parking space drive around the lake and continue up “your creek” Buffalo Creek! Do a topo map all the way up to 10200 ft up Buffalo creek. See the womb? This was child’s play like he said! I don’t know if you call this tidbit or what lol TS Eliot said lol everyone already knows what he said. So you. Only way to get in there since Buffalo Creek Road is closed and has been for years is you have to go around on Road 50 I believe it is. So the path will not be direct for those who have no certainlyanyone looking for Lewis and Clark should get this note.”boiling pine needles to make coffee will bring on Sudden cardiac arrest” Now get on your Google map. Or map quest. Start at PINE Colorado or pine needles Colorado. “There is only one;” no other pine in any other state. Take the pine valley canyon down, “driving” it’s too far to walk. Turn off put in is home of Brown”Buffalo Creek” from there it’s no place for the MEEK. Joseph MEEK. It is REDSKIN CREEK. The end is ever drawing nigh. you will see it’s close on the left. And since your driving along side the creek of course there’s no paddle up your creek. And you are traveling up the creek driving. So there’s just heavy loads “ton” water high ” welling” it is lake “Wellington”
        If you want to know the parking lot parking space drive around the lake and continue up “your creek” Buffalo Creek! Do a topo map all the way up to 10200 ft up Buffalo creek. See the womb? This was child’s play like he said! I don’t know if you call this tidbit or what lol TS Eliot said lol everyone already knows what he said. So you. Only way to get in there since Buffalo Creek Road is closed and has been for years is you have to go around on Road 50 I believe it is. So the path will not be direct for those who have no certainly

          • You seem humble Jake. I will go ahead and dispose your request not to tell you where hid the chest. ” Boiling pine needles to make coffee will bring on sudden cardiac arrest!

          • I’d rather snooze and loose than drink booze while others confuse.

            You can keep your ruse to use while I refuse your muse.

            Choose those 9 clues to amuse to pay your dues.

            Your news does not light the fuse to get the chest but only the blues and a big bruise.

            Don’t abuse.

        • Your stupidity. a smart man would always welcome any knowledge! Grab every . A little bit of something is a lot better then nothing. But you’re rudeness and arrogance I find quite offending. If you feel like a big big man. In all honesty I feel as my duty as a human being to tell you, forgive sinners as you are one and smile at a homely girl. You closed minded peron

          • A smart person would not boast about what they think they know when they don’t have proof.

            Stupidity is only stated by those that think they have all the answers but don’t.

            Don’t feel bad William, there are some here that boast they know it all and where the treasure is and then hide behind IMO only to find out they know nothing.

            You’re not alone going in there,

          • anyone looking for Lewis and Clark should get this note.”boiling pine needles to make coffee will bring on Sudden cardiac arrest” Now get on your Google map. Or map quest. Start at PINE Colorado or pine needles Colorado. “There is only one;” no other pine in any other state. Take the pine valley canyon down, “driving” it’s too far to walk. Turn off put in is home of Brown”Buffalo Creek” from there it’s no place for the MEEK. Joseph MEEK. It is REDSKIN CREEK. The end is ever drawing nigh. you will see it’s close on the left. And since your driving along side the creek of course there’s no paddle up your creek. And you are traveling up the creek driving. So there’s just heavy loads “ton” water high ” welling” it is lake “Wellington”
            If you want to know the parking lot parking space drive around the lake and continue up “your creek” Buffalo Creek! Do a topo map all the way up to 10200 ft up Buffalo creek. See the womb? This was child’s play like he said! I don’t know if you call this tidbit or what lol TS Eliot said lol everyone already knows what he said. So you. Only way to get in there since Buffalo Creek Road is closed and has been for years is you have to go around on Road 50 I believe it is. So the path will not be direct for those who have no certainly

          • The treasures probably right below the castle which would be considered the blaze out there to one thing that stands out

  4. Maybe WWWH is a road in the Rockies. most are north of Santa Fe. On a map the big
    picture. WWWH the Sun. Like Going to the sun road in Glacier. Start at west entrance
    and head south on HWY. 2 I have been thinking about what GK video says. The
    New Mexico thing. Original idea just mountains and not rocky mountains. A treasure hunt
    for the locals of Santa Fe. Would mean it is in New Mexico in the mountains north of
    Santa Fe. That sure would narrow it down. The 80 YO. cant go helps some.
    What is a key word. I looked at are the stanzas Indian items and or they Indians.
    Is Paintings involved. Its a mystery….

    • If that’s what your looking for then just Google ” warm springs picnic area” and start at the halt -stop sign. And take the canyon down to Trout Lake.

  5. The 45th Parallel – halfway point from the Equator and the North Pole (particularly near the north entrance of Yellowstone south of Gardiner MT)

    So I did it twice this summer but the second time I did it right. I stopped by the Boiling River which runs into the Gardiner river.. one foot was in scalding hot waters and the other was in cold water.. this is where I believe someone should begin it to understand why warm waters halts here it is 5,600ft elevation and well.. check it out for your self

    • Anyone searching for Lewis and Clark notes.
      Boiling pine needles to make coffee will bring on sudden cardiac arrest! Here is the big clue ppl. If you’re brave and in the wood! I have the answer!

        • anyone looking for Lewis and Clark should get this note.”boiling pine needles to make coffee will bring on Sudden cardiac arrest” Now get on your Google map. Or map quest. Start at PINE Colorado or pine needles Colorado. “There is only one;” no other pine in any other state. Take the pine valley canyon down, “driving” it’s too far to walk. Turn off put in is home of Brown”Buffalo Creek” from there it’s no place for the MEEK. Joseph MEEK. It is REDSKIN CREEK. The end is ever drawing nigh. you will see it’s close on the left. And since your driving along side the creek of course there’s no paddle up your creek. And you are traveling up the creek driving. So there’s just heavy loads “ton” water high ” welling” it is lake “Wellington”
          If you want to know the parking lot parking space drive around the lake and continue up “your creek” Buffalo Creek! Do a topo map all the way up to 10200 ft up Buffalo creek. See the womb? This was child’s play like he said! I don’t know if you call this tidbit or what lol TS Eliot said lol everyone already knows what he said. So you. Only way to get in there since Buffalo Creek Road is closed and has been for years is you have to go around on Road 50 I believe it is. So the path will not be direct for those who have no certainly!

          • Lookout Lake Wellington private area just they’re going to take the chest and go in peace

        • I can’t get there. Google it you’ll see every single word is a perfect match.
          Pine Colorado if your brave in the wood ” pine wood” take pine valley” Canyon down follow the poem word for word to lake Wellington. Drive around the lake to the parking area and hike up Buffalo Creek. Pull up a topo map of Buffalo Creek it ends at 10200 feet. And it looks like a woman’s womb on top of everything else

          • Boiling pine needles to make coffee will bring on cardiac arrest this is where warm Waters halt take the canyon down you go straight down from Pine to Buffalo Creek put in that the home of brown that’s Buffalo Creek they rent bicycles there will be no place for the meek? That’s Joseph meek. If you follow Buffalo Creek along the roadside on your map you will see it turned into Redskin Creek on the nigh and it’s very short the end is ever Drawing Near. there’ll be no paddle up your creek because you’re back on Buffalo Creek going Upstream driving. Just heavy loads and water High. You run right into Lake Wellington water Welling and ton being heavy loads. Drive around Lake and Park. Continue up your creek. That’s Buffalo Creek. Look at the topo map it should blow your mind you got to get there. Everything is too perfect.

        • William: repeating the same pine needle line 7 times on this page doesn’t make it more relevant due to the repetition. If your solution critically depends on this one line out of TTOTC, then it is quite simply wrong because the same solution cannot be derived from the poem alone.

          At a minimum, a good “general solve” must be constructable from just the poem and maps:

          “Emily, All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”

          Scrapbook 73:
          “I would like to reiterate: Please go back to the poem and look at maps for your answers.”

      • I think the definition of insanity is to do the same thing over and over and over again but expecting different results.

  6. And he said I warned the path will not be direct for the one with no certainty but will be for the one with certainty whatever he said I don’t remember. But even that matches because it looks like Buffalo Creek Road goes all along drivable but it’s not it’s been closed for several years many years. You have to go around to Road 50 and go to the lake that way it is a direct path. For the one with certainty

    • And at the end of your exploring you will arrive where you first begin and know the place for the first time. Because when you’re up there you can look down and see everything

    • I can’t get there. Google it you’ll see every single word is a perfect match.
      Pine Colorado if your brave in the wood ” pine wood” take pine valley” Canyon down follow the poem word for word to lake Wellington. Drive around the lake to the parking area and hike up Buffalo Creek. Pull up a topo map of Buffalo Creek it ends at 10200 feet. And it looks like a woman’s womb on top of everything else

  7. I’m the only person out of 350,000 people that says where warm Waters halt is Pine Colorado or pine Valley Colorado, or pine needles Colorado. They all come up to the same place

    • William, the years are filled with solves like yours. Nowhere do you use the poem. We don’t need history lessons. If you were as smart as you think you are, you would be talking poem solve instead of places you’ve guessed on. There is a reason you are the only one in your area. It started with a guess and didn’t let up. Ridiculous, solve the poem and come back.
      We are all aware of what f has said, repeating it does not make a solve.

      where warm Waters halt take the canyon down you go straight down from Pine to Buffalo Creek put in that the home of brown that’s Buffalo Creek they rent bicycles there will be no place for the meek? That’s Joseph meek. If you follow Buffalo Creek along the roadside on your map you will see it turned into Redskin Creek on the nigh and it’s very short the end is ever Drawing Near. there’ll be no paddle up your creek because you’re back on Buffalo Creek going Upstream driving. Just heavy loads and water High. You run right into Lake Wellington water Welling and ton being heavy loads. Drive around Lake and Park. Continue up your creek. That’s Buffalo Creek. Look at the topo map it should blow your mind you got to get there. Everything is too perfect.

      It is all guessing, if you cannot see that, you will never learn. Before you call people stupid, maybe you should not prove your point so perfectly like this ridiculous attempt at a solve. If you say you’ve been at this for a whole week now, I would believe you. You are not as smart as you think. So by all means, continue to try to convince us. We be not too smart eater.

  8. Yew needles are toxic but pine needles are not. You can make tea with them but I can’t vouch for the flavor. I understand they have vitamin C but no calories. That said I only googled it. If this is correct then explain why the sudden cardiac arrest comment is worth repeating over and over and over again.

  9. William. Nice that you’re willing to share your solve. It’s good to have confidence in your solve too. But you’ve lost me, just not seeing this fit. But maybe that’s why the chest is still out there.

    Why haven’t you gone boots on the ground?

    There is only wwwh in a far stretch of the imagination tied to this?

  10. Just like the word ‘below’ in the HoB line, I don’t know if enough importance is being placed on the word ‘halt’. Just finding random places with warm water is not good enough imo.

      • I have shown it to kids. I have kids that have searched with me. They haven’t come any closer to figuring it out.

        While the kid statement might imply the use of imagination is needed, I don’t think it can be taken literally.

  11. I think the kids may have an advantage thing is overblown and can also be spun a number of different ways. It seems it’s generally thought of as being kid related (kids books or whatever), but kids do a lot of things that adults no longer can that are not simpler. I’m thinking math without calculators or library research for reports, but I’m sure there are other examples.

    • FMC;

      Size matters. Maybe where Indulgence is “In there” is a low confined space that a child could get into more easily than an adult. – Just a thought – JDA

    • Good point FMC. My 13 year old likes math and I ran some numbers by him as it relates to the poem. He has heard a number of my solution ideas, and has searched with me. He said “You know, I think this is your best idea about the poem solution yet”.

    • When the question was presented to fenn at a book signing, he answered [in part] kids are more agile.. I think the word was.. Folks should review the Q&A for the exact wording.

      My point is only an idea that relates to the poem; “Look quickly down..”
      We have in the poem “alone”, “in there”, “In the wood” “It’s no place for the meek” maybe even “take it in”… lots of ‘in’.
      Then we have some ATF [ related or not depends on how one reviews the ideas ] that seem to have the same ideas. Leave your search partner in the car? Two trips to your solve? Is there a reason we should think about “in” as where a kid would have and advantage [size, youth, daring or curious etc { most kids would roll a rock or log, climb a tree, scurry into a place, long before most adults, line of thinking}]… has JDA also suggested. “Look quickly down” could imply ‘bend over’ or ‘crawl’ at place only suitable for one. [kids idea of a secret hideout].

          • I dont think it means only one can fit. I think “I have gone alone in there” is talking about 1/2 of something. I think it means I halve, as in the pies that grandma broke in half for FF when she knew he didnt have any money. I think that story about FF and the pies, is a story within a story. I think he is talking about starting his career of discovering treasures when he had no money. He was able to make a living with some street smarts and the help of Grandma/Mother Nature. IMO

  12. Possibly look quickly down through a key hole size with one eye. Follow the other directions in the poem to get there. Look through the hole in the hat or pie. Break it in half?

  13. I am just leaving Yellowstone and know that a lot of solves involve this area. I personally think it is somewhere near Hebgen Lake or North Yellowstone/ Gallatin Forest area. The reason for my post is because of something I noticed this week that I couldn’t ignore due to how odd it was. It didn’t occur to me that it could be a clue until my fiancé said as we were leaving the park that “it’s weird that the frost halts at the same exact elevation around the park, on each day.” My heart dropped obviously when I heard her say the word halt. She knows little to nothing of this hunt, hence why I didn’t check my 2 solves while we were here. However I’ve never read about a the theory I’m about to script, that you’ve all already probably connected. I’m not a meteorologist, but I will say that she was correct in her observation. It just never occurred to me that it could be “where warm waters halt” until she used that word. Snow storms came and went this week. Frost crept in and I even have odd photos of the exact altitudes at different locations where snow fell or where clouds began. All around the same and all around 9,000 feet. Well within his parameters of 5,000-10,200 feet……. someone will surely immediately write this off with a decent argument but the bottom line is this…. the frost line was about the same (in terms of altitude) every single day, for the duration of the day. Sometimes even being a distinct line of white trees and then green trees. I would word it “where cold waters halt” but clearly you could assume the opposite and work your way up. I feel that WWWH is a specific location, but it’s worth noting that I certainly noticed on this trip a different way to factually view where warm waters halt within and around Yellowstone. And it also fell within his parameters. Both in terms of being within the elevation limits and being “wet.” I’ve got much more information on this but won’t divulge just yet. I want other people’s take. If you could see the crystal clear line of where the frost from the clouds and changing weather stopped you would absolutely be able to envision this line as a starting point for “where the warm waters halt.”

    • Last week I wanted to post some information about the frost but I didn’t. I have to say yes frost and fog are significant.

    • Zach,
      What I like about your post is that it is unique. Not rehashing the same old stuff that has been said a million times. We have a house near Yosemite that is just below the snow line. That doesn’t mean we never get snow. But, there is an agreed upon altitude where snow is expected to fall. Nature doesn’t always cooperate, but its kinda the same idea as your frost line. New ideas are always nice to read. Your idea reminded me that I have always been curious about the comment in that story about Skippy landing his plane at Hebgen Lake were nobody had ever landed a plane before because of the altitude. I’ve thought that through a few times wondering if it was significant. Keep the creative ideas coming!

      • Zach very good. Look at one of my solves with frost. This is my post on MW.

        Yes I believe in that the waters are being commanded to halt (like a jolt). I feel like something is closing it off and redirecting the warm waters. A dam can well be the starting point below the Brown trout (the mother ship). Top water is warmer so the trout go below deep into the pocket holes where it’s cooler in the hot summers. Just when the frost comes and when the melting of the snow in the mountains brings down the cold water down from the mountains into the lower streams and rivers. Fish feel comfortable and Browns like the water temps cooler. When it does cool they travel up stream to spawn (which is taking place in very soon. The “it” hasn’t happen yet but soon.) The bugs start hatching out of their eggs and swarm the lakes and rivers. They have no way to jump the waterfalls so some are below the falls too. Some of the dams have windows and ladders to provide the fish to jump up to get to the higher waters. Some of these ladders were made of wood in the beginning and now they are concert. I know where those warm waters are stopped. There is just one that should fit the poem. IMO that would be Hebgen Lake but pp have searched that area. I think we are missing something.

        One of my solves anyway.

        Some thing to think about is frost covers the ground before day break. A history of air temperatures and the recent disappearance of snow tells the story.

        Also like to mention Brown Trout is capitalized if it is a tile of something.

  14. WWWH by your description is anywhere in the Rocky Mountains at or around 9000 feet.
    Your solve then makes HOB the first clue as anywhere at or around 9000 feet is the starting point. FF made it clear that the first clue is WWWH. Lots of area to cover in the Rockies at your frost line.

  15. Zach, isn’t the frost line at a different altitudes with every weather change? So how does that have any solve-value? Unless the clue or hint is that WWH simply means ‘altitude’ but not any specific altitude. Just ‘Begin at some altitude’. Or perhaps some other hint identifies the solves’ altitude. Seems kind of remote to me but I wait to hear other opinions.

  16. I just received my copper art piece titled ” where warm waters halt”?
    I think Dan is onto something here as it depicts the perfect WWWH!
    Beautiful work of art..

  17. WWWH is any high point in the Rockies where precipitation falls that has a canyon that leads down to HOB. If you think brown trout is part of the equation that makes HOB pretty wide open. If Brown is a person than this narrows the search area dramatically. Unfortunately their are other Browns to consider. Having bought in on the Madison River area I have felt I found each and every clue and walked straight to the blaze, of course, no luck. Like Dal I still think Mad Riv is a solid area to search.

  18. He said we need to simplify and use logic?
    Wwh = Lake
    Take “IT” in the canyon down = Avalanche
    Avalanche lake.
    As much as Forrest always uses the phrase “in a word” and everyone already knows MT.Brown is below avalanche lake. Any thoughts?

    • William,
      My WWH has not been a lake until recently. I currently have 3 solves Im working on. Im NOT leaning toward WWH being a lake. But, I do have one solve involving a lake. I find it interesting that several dictionaries state that a river, stream or creek is flowing water. But dictionaries state that a lake is water that is not flowing. So if you are looking at definitions, this might help you.

    • William,

      It doesn’t matter what any of ‘my’ theories are… I kinda like this thought process you presented. I like it mostly because you used ‘take IT in’ slightly different then many chat about.
      A couple things catch my attention though. What gave you the idea that a lake is where WWH [ I have a simple thought as to why, but I like to hear your reasoning out of all the other possibles ]. The same can be asked about ‘Brown” as a name.

      Example only; WWH dealing with glaciers… [BROWN PASS — Named for John George (Kootenai) Brown, the first superintendent of Waterton Lakes National Park,] and ‘just’ HLnWH as Watertone Lake, idea. He only used a simple compass to navigate from Cal. to Waterton Lake, hence creating Brown pass. [ending point of the pass in or about 1877]

      We can probable have many different interpretations of WWH that mention something named Brown or reference to a name Brown, and in any given state. However, you made a good example of how ‘Avalanche’ works [in a word] for a possibility of how we learn the first clue…
      lol even for a guy who hates the idea of names of anything being used to solve the poem.
      Titles given, symbolic mentioning, terms used to portray a place… sure… actual names? LOL it hurt to think of all the combinations we can, and have for the most part, thought of.

      • I just simplified. The simple solution would be lake . But here’s the kicker. The “it” in take it in the canyon down. Is instructions to take your wwh solution and take it in the canyon down. Combining the two together. I’m not saying for sure or running to a solve. But logic and simplicity says the answer to wwwh in a word is simply lake and the next phrase specifies the lake. fresh eyes and a new way of thinking to find the correct solve could be the exact path I’m on in my thinking but diff local. For instance. Wwh = lake
        Canyon down= canyon
        Too far to walk= drive
        Now Google ” canyon lake drive” your near Cody across the street from the resivoir. Buffalo bill

        • The poem doesn’t use the word “stop”. In a lake, does the water
          stop, then move again? A small child would say “no.”

          As always, IMO.

          • That is true tighterfocus. The dictionary does say a lake is water that is not flowing, but that doesnt mean it isnt moving. I dont think water molecules stop unless they freeze. Freeze is a synonym for halt. Although I have one solve involving a lake, my more focused two solves do not involve a lake.

          • Flutterby: even frozen, water doesn’t stop moving. Movement depends on scale. People are hung up on water itself halting. That is not the right thought, in my opinion.

        • I don’t think this thread was intended to put holes in anyone’s solves i liked reading yours William but that elevation is covered with snow so be wise to any one looking into it every thing is worthy of a thought Im here in colo there is a pine ridge i have ran across in the past in more then colo my problem with creeks is once your in them its hard to see any thing that needs to be seen. good thinking is never a down fall ty

      • Seeker,
        I also question whether names of places are used in solving the poem. However; we know that FF as a boy, was very interested in Lewis & Clark’s journey and they used names of geographical features. I don’t think (but could be wrong), that they used town or city names. Osborne Russell used some geographical features I believe, but he also used descriptions of places in his own words (like an illustrated picture). I wonder if FF may have used one of the techniques from the early explorers he was so interested in.

        • I would think along the same lines, flutterby.
          Not unlike butterfly [the name] to flutterby a depiction.

          Should a place be name as [ hypothetically ] Grandfalls… yet because there might be two waterfalls, maybe even side by side, the word “twin” could be an idea of what we see vs. the name.
          If a mountain area, from a distance, is shaped like a beaver, but named after the person who came across it… could Brown represent the shape we imagine, rather than a name of the person [ this case, capitalize as a hint for a give title, an animal species].
          Names change from time to time. I mean, 100 years or more ago many of the landscape had different Indian tribe names for the same place, change from Spanish and French to English…

          In 500 yrs, a 1000 yrs… would you rather rely on centuries of research into what was named, by who, when, and/or who that person represented as a tribe or country etc. or rely on what you may see in-front of you? Especially when we are told this will be done mostly by imagination, and imagination is more important than knowledge [ with the idea of the landscape in mind ]

          I think men like Russel or Meek could have a good chance of figuring this out, just as well as, someone 100 yrs or more down the road. I have asked the question in the past [related to Agent’s 777 Q&A] ~ What details is fenn talking about?
          When kids [ who’s imaginations are still in high gear because of their age ] looks at something like GE… what do they see first? My guess is, it’s not the names that are added later [Adults now automatically look for those]… but the landscape itself… shapes, natural borders {rivers for example in any given area}. etc. Not unlike the idea of a marble shower wall… or the marble stone itself, line of thinking.

  19. Too far to walk=drive, which =road. That seems to me what you take in the canyon down.
    We must go down and then put in BHOB, and continue down NPFTM.
    If the treasure is above 5000 feet, than WWWH must be well above that elevation, as FF did not go up our creek very far.

    • When you put in below HOB like park and get out for boot’s on the ground I would suggest that there’s no place for the meek that you should be looking for.
      I feel this line in the poem is simply stating, look you came this far, you have to be brave trust yourself no second guessing. And head up the creek on the nigh. Straight from your hob.

    • Just Google these words to see it.
      Canyon lake drive Wyoming
      This road should be highlighted in red now. It’s a better example

    • Ya never know. Besides, that was just an example of a new way of thinking. He is big on Cody and wild Bill and the museum there in Cody and everything. I’m thinking when I randomly was googling those words for every state in the search, that when it landed across the street from the wild Bill state park. This is crazy. What a quinkie dink! But only FF knows!

      • William,

        I’m not sure how long you’ve been engaged in all this, but “streets” solves line of thinking have been a round for a long time. It’s not a new idea, new way at all. IronWill [ a searcher ] is the first one that comes to mind with a solve involving W. Yellowstone and streets. Many other solves have used streets within there clue’s.
        I don’t think fenn is modern in thought, to be honest… I mean he was thinking down the road millenniums… lol will we even have streets then? The only real premise we have to work with [ at this point of uncertainty ] is that the RM’s are still moving and will have an impact on the clues. Which [ in my personal opinion ] might be saying, Civilization may not be expected to have a major impact of the area the chest lays in wait… roads, buildings etc.

        • You remember in the book when FF talks about stopping behind a tree and watching the cars bounce by hitting the potholes and splashing water on the people walking by? Anyway have you found “the potholes in Wyoming? Near grand Teton. There is a solve that leads to the ” “forget me not” lake. That is if “the potholes” where WWH.
          Google. “Forget- me-not Lake Wyoming” also Google “the potholes Wyoming”

          • I agree that the potholes are significant. But the poem has to take you to your solve. What in the poem tells you that is WWH. The poem contains the answers. If you randomly pick a place on a map, that isnt following the poem.
            IMO

          • William,
            There is no absolute way I can say names are not involved. I’m only using the information of many ATF’s over 8 years to conclude their lack of possibility.

            For example; Your pothole is great without names. The idea is, a lake being created by the land being worn, eroded, pressured downward in the normal course of time in any given area.
            Hence; leaning more to the idea:
            “a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help” rather than a simplistic idea that anyone could read names on a map, nor why it would take fenn 15 years just to wiggle around names on any given map, when writing the poem.

            IMO, the idea of looking for, a name related first clue, is how the dart tossing hunt kicked into high gear. Many need a name of a place to start, rather than a ‘reason’ for what WWH is in a location, or any clue for that matter.

            I think your starting out as easy as possible in thought, rather than ‘trying to simplify’ something that is complex and requires thinking the right thoughts, idea.

            Just saying…

  20. Rain water is considered warm waters. And rain waters always halt in potholes. And there is “The Potholes Wyoming” I’m just still trying to figure out WWWH.

    Did Forrest Fenn say there’s no anagram in the poem?

    • There’s a place named Pothole NM In Sagebrush county.
      There’s a place called Potholes CO.. LOL go figure… but it’s closed on Sunday.
      In MT there are places called; Great Plains Prairie Potholes; Bozeman, Billings, Helena, Great Falls… Their more natural in nature, been around for a bit longer than most places [ Glacial period ] and should be around for a little while longer ].

      I see how you’re coming up with name related idea to clues… and at the same time I can come up with many many ideas, using the same premise for any of the four states…
      Another idea of WWH [ snow, water related ], Never Summer Mountains CO… right?. Although the end of that, might be drawing nigh, as well.

      How do we narrow down [nail down] a single idea, nevertheless a single place… without guessing all the way through?

  21. Seeker, I believe that some of what you just said is right on track. The narrow it down part gets difficult with HOB. Trout, person, place. FF said all you need is a good map. No history lesson on a map, no trout planting schedule on a map, just names of places.

    • Jack,

      I think hoB might be more of a title or symbol.. still possibly a name.. but not so much a given name, line of thinking. Well, I guess all names are given names… What I mean is, I don’t think a place is relevant to the person it was named after. For example, I’m of the notion no place for the meek refers to [in part] the CD [continental divide] or to mean ‘the back bone of the RM’s’ idea. I also think the line can represent a section of the CD within, home of the brave, or the USA section of the RM’s… where are nation’s symbol is the Bald Eagle.

      When this all started, we didn’t know much more than “in the mountains N. of SF.” Later, told the RM’s. Even later, told within four states. IF we had not been told those ATFs could the poem tells us? I think it would have to.. right?
      No more Canada, Utah, Idaho etc. States the only have the CD within them, idea. MY point is; fenn eliminated 1/2 the search area, and many take it for granted that those eliminating factors have nothing to do with clues… I think they do. Reading the poem, with the suggestions above, does exactly the same as the ATF’s ~ it places us in the USA [ not in Canada at all ] and places us in the four remaining stated [ no Utah or Idaho ] and in one particular state. But even the name of that state is really not ‘needed’ to be known of… In theory anyways, and looking at the poem on a larger scale.

      So, If NPFTM could refer to a section of the CD in the US, then it’s possible; Put in below hoB could reference Canada’s symbol of the brown beaver, not unlike our bold eagle the represents ‘the home of the brave”… So technically and on a map [ with no mapping names involved, names that can change pretty much an time and many times over many years ‘down the road’ ] we should be [ at this point in the poem and this theory ]…
      ~ On the CD, below Canada’s border, USA side… Where possibly WWH is, in Glacier NP < on a map. And possibly relates to the "cold" reference in the poem, or Warm Waters, as liquid, halt being liquid.
      "learn[ing] where/what WWH is"?? by the information in the poem?

      I just don't see the need for the simplistic idea that names on a map is a must. Seeing a name on any map/GE label doesn't require imagination, geography knowledge of any kind, nor any interpretation. IMO using names on a map, 'to only match' to places is over-simplifying the clues, and not much more than tossing a dart and hope for the best. To be honest, I'm a bit dumbfounded that many only look for something that could be WWH without considering the other clues and non-clues parts of the poem to give us its reference / location or even why this location.

      The one thing I know about blueprints is, you have to build from/with the material given to create what is supposed to be. Basically saying; you can't connect item A to item B without knowing what C D E etc. are for. Hence the idea we should be able to decipher the clue's 'references' at home, and marry them [ join, couple, place together, build from ] to "A" place on a map… Certainty of the location beforehand, idea. BUT, in this line of thinking, there seem to be a catch… we may still need to "precisely" follow the clues, botg, to get to the blaze and hopefully the hidey spot.

      I'm reading the poem as two folds… information that gets us to a location [using any and all parts of the poem] and 9 specific "references" to be followed when on site. { all the above is just an example of the method } Yet, there is a good reason why this location could work… thinking alone the lines; What if there are no legal questions…

      LOL… my novel for today.

  22. Seeker, If I find it, their will be no legal question as I will only tell Forrest if he is still around and keep the secret. I am afraid that maybe this has already happened.
    As for your over simplify theory, I have to disagree. I think that the map has WWWH list by name and HOB is the key. FF claims that some people have been within 200 feet. Having been out there, once you get to the blaze it gets very difficult as you have to find the exact spot. I thought that would be the easy part, but not so. At my first solve I did not find it but I just new it was nearby, I searched a 5000 square foot area for hours and still felt when I left that I missed it. Going back to that spot again next summer. Have a couple more I like as well.

    Keeping it simple…LOL

    • Jack,

      No problems if you think you have most of it solved. My only point is, sure, everything has a name on a map…
      If WWH refers to a lake [ for example ] virtually all lakes have been named. So i’m curious how you pulled a ‘name’ out of the poem?

      I have one idea for just that line of thinking… example; “AS I have gone”… or the idea of a mirror image, ISA lake.
      I’m not digging the idea, however, the poem kinda give the impression of opposites. Someone went some where in stanza 1 and in stanza 5 someone is leaving [opposites] New and Old [opposites]
      Waters vs. water – Not far vs. too far – warm vs. cold, the poem seemingly going from past to presents [opposites] etc. and fenn talks about mirrors a bit as well opposites. So that’s one idea… How do you see a name?

      • Seeker, seeing Jack’s post where he said “the map has WWWH list by name and HOB is the key.” I’d gather the easy way to garner a name from that would be Brown(s) Lake.

          • Seeker, I knew you were gonna say that. But, I don’t see a problem with it.

          • I’m m not saying one of a kind, but IF we need another clue to figure it out… Shouldn’t it be one location, rather that many in all four states?

          • Seeker, no, I don’t think so.

            If you were the one crafting this clue filled poem would you use a one of a kind named place which could be easily obtained by reading the only capitalized word (Brown) in mid sentence? Or would you go deeper and craft the poem where that word (Brown) shows up in all four states just like wwh(s) probably do, canyons do, put ins do, meek places do, creeks do, heavy loads and water high(s) do and blazes do?

            You asked Jack where to find the name for wwwh from the hoB angle. It’s a different question to ponder if that’s the strategy f used. We can only try to reason that out. To me, It’s not a problem if there’s many lakes in all states named Brown(s) Lake.

            The question is…can you figure out a mechanism that f could have used to hide which Brown(s) Lake (using Jack’s example of a hoB keyed name for wwwh) from all 4 state possibilities?

            I can, the first stanza secretly hides the correct immediate geographical area to the correct wwwh and later confirmed by the naming of the correct wwwh in the hoB clue. That would be one way to hide the correct Brown(s) Lake and not worry that searchers couldn’t figure out the correct one. Or, worry that it’s too obvious that you named it in your poem. Success on both counts, imo.

          • FD, your example is a good one. It could work for various HoB’s, though I’m not sold on a Brown lake. If HoB was referring to a lake named Brown wouldn’t the actually home of this Brown lake be a much larger area? To me it seems like WWWH could be a smaller geographical location than HoB, but dealing with the area that needs to be big enough to hold a lake, like a National Forest, for example may make it a little hard to find the exact put in spot.

            If HoB was the lake itself it would seem like an odd way to word it. Wouldn’t he just say ‘put in below Brown’?

          • Aaron, good points.

            I just used the hypothetical example of a lake because Seeker used a lake when he said “If WWH refers to a lake [ for example ] virtually all lakes have been named. So i’m curious how you pulled a ‘name’ out of the poem?”.

            I agree when you said “If HoB was referring to a lake named Brown wouldn’t the actually home of this Brown lake be a much larger area?”.

            I think one could find a hoB that replicates this example where that hoB isn’t just the lake itself. It could include the environment that immediately surrounds the lake and therefore provides to the ones that “home” there. It may be important to focus on the question of who or what homes there.

          • I agree FD, don’t know that HoB could be a large area but agree with your points of focusing on what has a home in an area.

            Since this is a WWWH thread I’d like to add that I also believe that it has to do with something that has a home in an area near WWWH. Hence searchers only getting the first few clues and getting close. I know this has been talked about enough on here but just tying it in to our HoB discussion. I mimicked the entire poem for an Easter hide for our kids. Despite the length of the poem, the search area still fit into about 300 feet. It is easier to do in a poem than one might think.

            Practicing writing poems for an area is a good way to try to figure out how FF would do it IMO.

      • Very awesome, Aaron. Cool to hear you made a neat poem with clues on a smaller scale for your kids.

        Interesting to hear that it was rather easy for you, I haven’t tried that.

        I think the example we all talked about can translate to many of the other possibilities that searchers come up with for hoB. I also feel the discussion lends itself to the wwwh thread as there’s always that possibility that wwwh and hoB are connected somehow.

  23. Seeker, I see lots of names and places and locations on the map, not just lakes. Warm water comes in many forms and halts in many places. I see the secret is to narrow them down by process of elimination taking it down a canyon to a place on the map that hints of Brown. I know, seems to simple and a lot of work, but I have all winter to mess with it.
    See you in the Rockies next summer.

      • When I read the discussions on wwwh I always go back to the HWY20 and Boundary street. Then I hit the end where it halts. I can take in the canyon down by elevation down going north. Then Just before the elevation gradually goes up again I have a choice to either go right or left.
        (Flyhighway documentary. Flywater book ideas and other compelling facts). Both of my choices right or left on Canyon can work. But I haven’t had BOTG yet.

        My mind keeps going back to this idea after reading everyone discussion on the subject wwwh because it starts to get to complicated in my head.

      • Water halts when it freezes, at 32 degrees…Latitude is measure in degrees, 32 degrees Lat. is border of Texas, NM and Old Mexico at El Paso, Rio Bravo River which is the major river we call the Rio Grande in Rockies 1885 miles long and starts near Telluride, Co.

        The exact words Where Warm Waters Halt only existed IMO one place, described since the 1940’s in all New Mexico Fishing Proclamations as the place on rivers where Warm water species fish regulations apply (Bass, Catfish, Walleye etc) and cold water species fish regulations begin, in 2012 this information was shared by many locals as WWWH and Forrest lived by those regulations most of his life when he went fishing in NM.

        Many will argue for hot springs, and other places of similar note, as for me, it’s pretty simple, there are two layers of this poem, one of them is geographical, one is more sublime.

        TT

        • Tommy, WWH cant possibly be related to fishing water temperature because only a fisherman or someone reading these blogs would know that. That info isnt in the poem and the poem is supposed to be all we need. IMO

        • Tommy G,

          The Rio Bravo, (Rio Grande) does not start near Telluride, it starts just SE of Canby Mountain somewhat South of Silverton, CO which is no where near Telluride.

          Also have never heard of the locals referring to the Rio Bravo as wwwh, it is referred only as having warm water. The upper 1/3 portion of the river is very much cold.

          Maybe you should read what Wikipedia says about the Rio Grande, (Rio Bravo), all of the way through. It would help to get your facts straight.

          Just Say’n

        • At least 2 layers, in various parts of the poem.

          This reminds me of onions . . . which reminds me of crying.
          (That’s a hint, folks.)

          As always, IMO.

        • Then “ringing” might conceivably be possible (I believe that a
          ring should precede conception).

          I think many of us have seen ice crystals, even though not all frozen water is crystalline.

          The poem is not about frozen water.

          The above lines of this message comprise part of my opinion.

  24. Tim,
    Even if the molecules are locked in a crystalline structure, they are still moving, but that movement is not visible to the naked eye. However, I suppose we could get by with the definition for halt being an inteription in activity. But, Im not even certain of that.

    • Hard to imagine that movement of water molecules would make a difference in finding WWWH. A comprehensive knowledge of geography will help more than chemistry.

      • Well, I have to display my stupidity Tim – Other than freezing, how can water turn from a liquid to a solid? My science teacher missed that one – JDA

          • But is it solid or still liquid, but trapped in the chrystaline walls? Just askin’ ’cause I don’t know – JDA

        • Quartz is the second most common mineral on the earth. A majority of quartz is formed in magmatic volcanism however a sizeable minority of quartz precipitates from hot mineral water ie it “grows from water but is a stone in the end. There have been several programs on Nat. Geo , Discovery channel “the Crystal Caves” with quartz crystals 1 meter thick and 5 meters long growing in chambers of Pegmatite mines. You can look it up on line.

          • If nothing else it’s very imaginative. Seems to be some pretty specific knowledge that I would hardly believe the majority of Forrest target audience, everyone, would be thinking about.

          • If nothing else it’s very imaginative. Seems to be some pretty specific knowledge that I would hardly believe the majority of Forrest target audience, everyone, would be thinking about.

          • Quartz, jasper,flint, agate these are all different forms of Silicon dioxides that were used by ancient peoples to knap tools and weapons. This is pretty common knowledge. This is why I ask earlier about Forrest’s first arrow head and what material it was made from.

          • Tim: Forrest’s first arrowhead is pictured in TFTW on a couple pages. Don’t have my book with me, but I recall the color being an opaque cream/sandy orange. So likely flint.

        • Does this answer your question? No I do not believe you are stupid. I have followed your posts for some time. You were probably aware of this on some level, it just wasn’t at the front of your thoughts. I believe the poem is very specific and precise. If we see only general information that is our problem not the poem’s. We need to change our thinking in order to succeed. I am willing to put this out there because there are many places north of Santa Fe that have crystal or quartz in their names. If many people follow this clue one may succeed, good for them!

          • So, “Begin it where there is a quartz outcrop, and take it in the canyon down” (Interp.) This seems pretty general. Where in the poem do you get information that will lead you to the correct quartz outcrop? If none, then you are throwing darts – JMO – JDA

          • Not a quartz outcrop for example try Quartz mountain as a name or Quartz as the name of a Ghost town. The area identifier is later in the poem and is the “word that is key”. When properly interpreted the word narrows it down to only one place in the Rocky Mountains. I have not found the treasure , I’ve looked twice. Could I be wrong ,sure. One thing I’m not doing is throwing darts.

          • JDA tell you what , I will send my complete solve for your perusal. You can check it out. If it helps you fine I have no problem with that. If you don’t like it don’t use it.

          • Hi Tim;

            I have one hard-and-fast rule – I do not read other peoples solves. But thanks anyway. JDA

          • Tim – thanks for the discussion, new ideas! So your idea about mineral hydration as wwwh is interesting, I’m not totally sold, but here are a couple more rabbit holes you maybe should look at: FF was familiar with archaeology, and an avid collector of stone tools…chert is another form of micro-crystalline silicon dioxide. Another term to look at is ‘diagenesis’ – interesting section about bone decay in the wiki page…again, just some additional ideas…I can see flutterby getting nervous 😉

          • Quartz–>>silica–>>sand—>>glass—>> window —> “in cases of emergency, break glass”. And all those window references. You can go forever with quartz. Did you know that sand is the world’s most plentiful resource?

          • JDA Believe me I totally understand that rule. I don’t want to put out my solve( to the general public) because the area of my solve has some fragile areas and too many feet would be detrimental.

        • JDA,

          My WWWH is a mountain peak and taking it in the canyon down is a literal thing. I also think that the WH in HLAWH is also quartz but this time it is the blaze at the hidey spot.

  25. Halt; Stay, stop, freeze, change in direction/movement, inaction, stand, finish, an interruption or temporary suspension of progress or movement, rail station… draw up.

    Draw or draw up; to come or cause to come to a halt [which in of itself doesn’t always mean blockage or obstruction] Halt as in; no longer around, gone. Or gone as in; disappear, cease, past or past on…deceased.

    The end if ever drawing nigh. Is there a connection to WWH and HLnWH? Are they one in the same? Same place?
    If the end [WWH] is drawing and where ‘waters halt’ [ ‘drawing’; an act of pulling or draining to or from ] could WWH be the end of HLnWH… do we need to learn that WWH is where we need to be at, rather than, leave… from where we are told to start with the clues?
    Is there any reason we are not starting at the end?

    The subtle difference might be how we perceive “take it in” as a movement or a station for observation. The same can be given for “put in” as an action or a sight or line of sight. Drawing in this case might be understood as; to come to a place… or watch something come toward or to a place. A depiction of what is seen.

    Does anyone else see that many, if not most, of the words in the poem are interchangeable in their usage?.. and all could be of a single place and we need to observe its happenings.

    • There is a 95% chance wwwh is the Colorado River. It’s flow has steadily decreased for a long time…. And possibly will be a creek in the next 100 to 500 years… And that goes along with the comments made by FF of when he believes the chest will be found. Imo

      • William…. the Colorado River is definitely one of the most controversially controlled rivers in the world and millions of folks rely on it’s resources to survive. Two things; when has Fenn ever definitively commented on when he thinks the treasure will be found? And second; where do you come up with the 95% chance ?

        • I don’t know exactly where the comments are but I have watched interviews of FF I have seen him say in 3 different interviews. One in particular he mentioned 900 to 1000 years it could be before the poem is solved chest is found. I’ve seen him say possibly the next millennia. I’ve seen him say “in a hundred years. And I’ve seen his interview where he said about his gut feeling. So I’m just saying imo looking at the state of decrease in flow and need of the Colorado’s water. There will not be enough water for the demand. Even possiblity of a “water war” sometime in the future. So imo with FF predicting way into the future is when the chest is found. That’s my 95% reasoning . But no proof thus far. Just my gut feeling lol

          • Thanks for the reply William. There are water rights/supply issues all over the Rocky Mts. dating way back…so who knows. Fenn says he is ambivalent about IF/when the treasure is found. The comments you are referring to seem rather general and may be just a sentiment or wishful thinking. It is interesting that he has said that the treasure may be found sooner than he thought. What exactly is *sooner* ?

      • William,

        Regardless of the probability and speculations… much of the lost flow is due to human or man-made directional alterations flow of the river and its tributaries. Even though a lot of those directional flows don’t have “structures” involved… do they fall into the same guidelines?
        Example; is a ditch that allows water to drain somewhere else [altered by humans] from its natural flow come into play? In one case of the CO river, not only changed the amount of water, but forces the flow onto the opposite side of the natural watershed.

    • an avalanche was my same place for wwh and npuycjhlawh. goes along with forrests comment that rocking chair thinking could get you the first few clues.

  26. wwwh is the door to all the clues- you have to go there no matter what – there is no other way to get to the clues – if you are going in your house to your bad room do you use the front door or do you go in through your bed room window – every room in your house has its place and so do the clues -wwwh is the key

    • All of the rooms where I live are good. Activities in various or individual rooms are subjectively evaluated, based on values. As always, IMO.

      Oh! . . . I should (per MY values) say something about the hunt.

      In my opinion, gold is ALWAYS gold.

      In order to narrow the reasonable (this is subjective, don’tcha know) choices for “where warm waters halt”, one might list the things that might reasonably qualify as “warm waters”. I have done this, and my list includes the following:

      1. water issuing forth from the ground (hot springs, for example)
      2. tears
      3. blood
      4. urine

      These are listed in order of decreasing likelihood of matching FF’s meaning
      in his poem. Please note that more than one of the above items may be
      applicable in the various “layers” of the poem’s possible meanings.

      My opinion the above lines are part of.

      • tighterfocus,

        Fenn mentions his “rainbow” then the treasure… as an art dealer, and dealing in old, expensive and collectable art… I wonder why ‘colors are not in the top of your list? I mean, a rainbow is all about the colors of the light spectrum, involving warm and cooler colors. right?
        Just an observation….

    • Not so! ” Begin it where warm water halt’s and take it in the canyon down is the first clue! There is no period after halts… It’s a long clue but has been cut in half by everyone and FF has gone with it…. Laughing probably… Look at the periods…. Commas ,,, they are important!

        • William and Jake;

          I disagree with both of you. I think that the first clue is the first three lines. Begin it to walk. JMO – JDA

          • William – follow your own advice. There is a comma after “down” – the sentence does not end until after walk. Follow your own advice, stop at the period, not at a comma. – Read the poem – Not my opinion, but a fact. JDA

          • True !
            My point exactly!
            That’s why wwh is not a lone clue. There are sentence that join to get the answer to wwwh.

        • Begin it where warm Waters Halt and take the canyon down, not far but too far to walk…. That’s the first clue! But it’s been abbreviating by everyone saying begin it where warm Waters halt is the first Clue. There’s 9 Clues and it looks like 9 sentences to take you to the blaze. But like Forrest said there are some words that don’t mean anything and some that do. It would be wise not to Discount any of them. The first clue is begin it where warm Waters halt all the way to the.period….. imo. It’s a story.. put it together to reach the end that is actually the beginning! Word smithing.

          • After all FF said a couple ppl or teams solved the first two clues then walked right past the last 7. If anyone thinks botg is after piahob is the 4th clue imo that’s wrong

          • If you gonna ignore what F stated then that’s fine with me.
            F doesn’t care about punctuation.

          • The punctuation is a subtle clue. There’s even 9 periods. He said follow the clues in order. ?? Let’s say when someone gets to The Blaze. They’ll need the words, he hinted, new and old. Brave and wood. Although he said the first clue is BWWWH.. and we know it is. But we also know life is a circle. We will end where we began.! Imo
            Think deep with logic

          • Willaim ~’Begin it where warm Waters Halt and take the canyon down, not far but too far to walk…. That’s the first clue! But it’s been abbreviating by everyone saying begin it where warm Waters halt is the first Clue.’

            Nope… fenn stated the first “clue” is; “begin it where warm waters halt.” No one is abbreviating it [ at least, not any more. Although, some just don’t want it to be true ]

            The thing is, is a clue a full answer we desire? Or is it part of an answer… How many clues does it take to understand, ‘nail down’ WWH?

            The simplest example is; What’s black and white and red all over? That is the way we hear that riddle, right? But it actually is; What’s black and white, and read all over?
            There is more than one clue in the question, but it only produces as single answer. [a newspaper]
            Stanza 2 could do the same, in theory. Sounds like four clues, but all four, or more, may be needed to “nail down” the correct answer to “where” or even “what” warm waters halt is all about.

            It is also possible all 9 clues relate to a single place… being WWH. For example, and in one reading for the poem;
            WWH could simply imply where fenn meant to die. We begin at the same point, but to be there at the exact point we need to know what fenn sees from there. In this case, WWH is the place of the blaze, and where the chest lays in wait, and all the other depictions of the clues can only be seen from that exact spot… no matter the size of what WWH refer to. Possibly why we can’t go looking for the blaze without knowing WWH first.

            Now, try and count the clues…. without leaving the poem. You may only see two or three or four actual references of places, from the first clue and the blaze itself… and not so much 9 different place. Fenn has only stated there are 9 clues… he’s never said how many clues give up a place.

            Just a different perspective.

      • William: evidence suggests that Forrest doesn’t really give a hoot about proper punctuation. He certainly makes mistakes with commas, apostrophes, capitalization, spelling, and compound nouns all the time. Shall I share a couple quotes with you so you can get a sense of Forrest’s position on the subject?

        11/2/2013:

        “So many writers, I don’t want to be critical, but I know so many writers that are so much better than I am. They… Everything is researched perfectly. Everything is correct. The commas are in the right spot, and you go right down the center line. And I told this writer today she should be writing Encyclopedia Britannicas. It’s no fun to read. Everything’s there, but it’s no fun.”

        8/14/2018:

        “Does the semi-colon have specific meaning for the correct solve? If so, what?”

        Forrest: “No. f”

        “Does punctuation have significance in solving the poem? If so, what?”

        Forrest: “No. f”

  27. IMO

    poem and ttotc have multiple entendres.. in fact, it’s good to keep in mind that one measure of a master artist is by how many entendres they can squeeze into each expression, brush stroke, lyric, sentence, word.. and heck, even a single letter or symbol.

    having said that, I’d like to point out one entendre of WWWH that I think has been missed by many..
    COLD.. WARM.. HOT.. as in the game where something is hidden.. and if a searcher steps closer toward the hiding spot.. they are getting “WARM”.. and obviously, if a searcher steps further away from the hidden object, they are “COLD”..

    A search implies the searcher and object are clearly not in the same spot at the beginning.. so.. “Begin it” is understood to be COLD without actually saying it..
    then.. “Begin it where”.. WARM.. “Begin it where warm waters”.. HOT.. therefore, HALT..

    there’s tonnes more there, but i’m just going to leave it at that 😉

    • Happy Thoth,

      Hide n Seek is not really a came of searching, but more about being caught. The main objective is to get farther out so your chances of getting catch first is less.

      In my thoughts of HLnWH and WWWH… you’re idea can work, but with a twist. Example; you start at the idea of cold being WWH, however, the “drawing nigh” from HLnWH could be perceived as its water going to WWH. OR HLnWH is considered your hot spot idea, and WWH is where that water is cold. The question is; do we need to go to the hot post [HLnWH] or stay where WWH -IF- the water is meant to draw [ drain ] to nigh [near] WWW halt?

      In an observational search [ call it a stakeout, lol ] your farthest point to see, could be, hoB …which drains to WWH or to be considered “just” HLnWH… hypothetically – the suspect is coming right at you, line of thinking. In this case, NPFTM is all points in between. In this theory, hoB is only known of when one is on site to locate it from WWH, and the need for botg, as well as, nailing down WWH… a ‘fix’ spot. IF I was to label the game… I’d call it ‘I Spy’

      Example only; a lake {WWH} and there are 3 water sources that enter the lake. The one you need {your creek} is below hoB {the end is ever drawing} Nigh as near[er] to you, standing at the correct location at WWH to see it all. WWH, now “just” became HLnWL [ your hot spot ]. The place you Begin at.

    • The danger there HT, is assuming artistic mastery a priori, and then using that assumption to justify that any and every perceived multiplicity of meanings is not only present, but also intentional and purposeful.

      Just because something *could* be the Rosicrucians doesn’t mean it *is* the Rosicrucians.

      Jake

      • Imo
        Jake,
        You are correct,
        PrePONDerance of evidence.. each piece must be supported by another reasonable one..
        Forrest was very clear in one of his videos.. “SHOW ME THE EVIDENCE”

        so in my example.. HALT is imbued with HOT.. supporting evidence? THE “CAN” YON(DER) DOWN..
        RED HOT..
        yonder down..
        SCANT (scanned)

        X Mark’s the spot.. but Supermans vision isn’t just Xray, now is it?

      • good job Jake – sense I cant say where the cold water and warm water come from its up to the person to figure it out – that’s what the poem is all about – its not what the poem says but what he wants to say- but cant

        • Your warm is my cold.
          My warm may be your cold.
          Bottom line is what is F’s warm is (comfortable) in water?
          Where does it halt? When it’s cold?
          This is a man that bathed in the Madison.
          It depends upon the person but F wrote it and I think everything in the poem is about F.

          • ok Jake – I wasn’t talking about bathing – its my fault if you didn’t understand – maybe I should of write it this way and sense I was talking about the poem wwwh I thought you knew what I was saying – what I meant about cold I meant freezing cold due to melting ice and snow coming down in a river – warm could be released from a lake a reservoir and meet with each other- where wwwh

      • Jake, ~’It also depends on the person’

        Not really. You’re talking about an ‘amount’ of comfort one likes compared to another person. The one fact that doesn’t change in a temperature [ under normal health condition ] is the body’s tempt.
        I mean, some may say 87 degrees feels hot, and other may like it that way, in or out of water… the body at 87 degrees is not diggin it at all, it has completely shut down. IF we’re looking at what is warm to cold, within the challenge, what is the only reliable factor to warm, as a temperature and comfortable? A couple degrees one way or the other will be noticeable to anyone… by touch or likes and dislikes.

  28. Anyone ever see a standing wave on a river? Maybe if you squint your eyes/cock your head sideways the waters appear to halt? Not sure how to find the right one, but they are out there.

  29. Water…s is plural and not a name given IMO for those waters, except that there is a name given or inferred in the next sentence, one definition, a (the) canyon….down, geographically a 99 per cent chance down is South. No Down is not from Ducks and Geese feathers…sorry.

    Canyon South in it’s flow of water’s, warm water changing to cold, so we are ascending if we take our search in the canyon right. Now I am just using my imagination now and lets say that we have an hourglass full of the sands of time, which way does it flow? Perhaps the key to this poem is not too complex but sublime and hidden, if so then there is another complete layer for each geographical clue, a hint is given in the first stanza, otherwise it would contain the first clue…which, as we know it, first clue is in the Second stanza, that hint or hints of another layer, gone alone, after he was there with only one or two others perhaps both men and each in their 80’s his father and Eric Sloane. Ask yourself if ff and Eric Sloane ever go to Yellowstone when Eric was over 80?

    Also a bold reference to “riches new and old” Why bold and where would riches old come from? How old is old, over 80? Hey! I am 72 but feel most of the time I am about 15?

    Where am I going with this you ask? When or warm waters halt in me is gonna probably be when I am dead. Meanwhile I like to think like a kid. That’s why I am Enthusiastic about Savin the Rockies..

    TT

    • Tommy: while most rivers in the northern hemisphere generally flow south, it’s not 99%. Plenty of counterexamples: the Willamette in Oregon, St. Johns in Florida, the Genesee in New York, and of course Yellowstone River, just to name a few.

      • Wyoming’s full of rivers running north to the Missouri.

        The Wind (initially) and the N Platte (eventually) run southeast

        Only the Green flows south for any real distance. The Snake a little ways before it lights out for Idaho.

    • a thought experiment:

      envision a square table with a map on it, there are 4 people standing at the four sides of the table listening to instructions from one of the four. If the person giving instructions points to a spot on the map and says: “go down from here”. and that person meant to go “south”. the other three people have permission to roll up the map and smack that person upside the head with it, and that person’s “map privileges” taken away for a period of acceptable punishment.

      if you did that in some nation’s armed forces, they may stake you to an ant hill. geez…..

      • If you was looking at a picture of the land from above, I’d agree somewhat with your thought, Writis.
        A map is only meant to be read with the thought of N.S.E.W…. up, down, right, left to avoid such confusion. The one factor that is not truly one of the above is elevation, and why most would explain as an altitude gain or not, where a map is concern.
        Now, If we take GE into consideration as a “good map” then yes, as a picture of the land, down can be a few things, such as; down in elevation and still northward in direction.

        Ya have to ask; Why did fenn say good reference tools are “GE *and/or* a good map” That kinda implies a good satellite picture of the landscape is just fine for the job. LOL- now the question is; what “details” is fenn wanting on a good map or GE? Is GE just a convenience or a visual affect of the real landscape?

  30. Jake you asked what’s black and white and red all over? That’s Waldo! Where is it? The chest is on the Colorado River in Colorado. By my account. I will put it together in a couple weeks. You’ll see

  31. My observation is, the poem has any rule about one sentence one clue. Could be, but also could be multiple clues per sentence, and certainly no clues per sentence, punctuation not withstanding. FF has been very clear as pointed by many here that Wwwh is the first clue.
    Take it in the canyon down could mean south or both south and loss of elevation. This may be the wrong chat room for this but HOB is the key. So warm waters can be geysers, rivers, lakes. glaciers, rain, snow, hot, cold, or quartz, but a canyon takes south/down to HOB. So what ever of these forms of warm water you choose, they must lead to HOB. Keeping it simple again as instructed by FF.

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