Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixty Eight


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647 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixty Eight

    • What is the most incredible thing I have learned from this hunt?…
      Forrest Fenn has walked in the foot prints of more dead people than any one of us can ever hope to. (IMO of course)

  1. Good Morning All – and STAY SAFE all.

    To stay on theme, An “Odd” way to “End” an old friend (The old Odd’s n Ends) haha 🙂 JDA

    • It’s hard to keep even the Chase exciting 24/7/365.25 . . . (in my opinion).

      While we wait for another juicy scandal (just kidding. I find them boring),
      here’s something about the treasure hunt.

      During the month of May, there’s likely to be a lot of mud where a “correct”
      hiking path would take a searcher. Good hiking boots, tall enough to cover your ankles, could help provide stability. And if the boots are also waterproof, that would be very much appreciated, should you have a VERY good solve.

      I’m not planning to go again to my favorite BOTG search location before the end of May, due to mud. On my first search hike in that location, the mud
      accumulated on the soles of my footwear, making it quite difficult to hike. I fell 3 times. I’m not proud of that, but don’t want this to happen to any other searchers. As always, IMO.

  2. Good morning, everyone! I thought I’d mention that the weekend before this past one, I finally got around to doing the hike up to the summit of Wheeler Peak (a.k.a. Taos Mountain). The Taos Ski Valley area was beautiful and the aspens were in the prime of their color change (about 2 weeks after peak aspen color-change season happens in Colorado; I’ll make a note of that for future reference!). It’s definitely another one of the beautiful areas in the Rockies that I recommend for everyone to check out. If the hike up to the peak sounds like too much, just the hike out to Williams Lake is worth the trip too! I did look over the area in advance to see if there were any good possible search-spots that I could hit while there, but nothing jumped out and grabbed me.

    Well anyway, while I was doing this hike up Wheeler Peak, my mind naturally kept going back to the chapter from TTOTC “Tea with Olga”. Standing up on the summit ridge above treeline and looking all around the summit of Wheeler Peak, I was struck by how distant all of the forested areas were from the mountain’s summit. It made me question Forrest’s decision to air-drop Olga’s ashes in any of the forested areas surrounding the peak rather than on the peak itself, per Olga’s original request. It seemed like quite an acrobatic bit of lawyering on Forrest’s part to convince me that by dropping Olga’s ashes into a forest he would still be honoring the terms of his deal with Olga. I feel like this is coming out as a criticism against Forrest, and maybe it is a bit, but the main idea I wanted to communicate was the difference in reading “Tea with Olga” in the book and then actually seeing the area in person. In the book, it seems like Forrest made a very easy decision to rationalize dropping Olga’s ashes in the forest rather than the summit, as if there were trees just below the summit, but being there in the area Forrest’s decision seems less obvious and to make less sense. I’m not sure if this relates to anything else in the Chase, but I just wanted to share my puzzlement on this.

    Another question related to “Tea with Olga” and Wheeler Peak that I have been puzzling over: When Forrest did make the decision to drop Olga’s ashes in the forest, which patch of forest did he eventually decide on? In terms of proximity, the forests to the west surrounding Williams Lake and the upper bowl to the south seem closest (and since my hike went right through this area, I can vouch for its beauty), but there is also a nice-looking forested bowl immediately south of Wheeler (and Simpson) Peak containing Bear Lake. Further southeast is another wooded bowl containing Blue Lake and the source of the river than supplies the Pueblo of Taos. To the east are 3 other forested bowls each containing a lake (south to north these lakes would be: a small unnamed lake, Horseshoe Lake, and Lost Lake. And finally to north we have a less secluded forested area containing the headwaters of the middle fork of Red River (the eastern bowls supply the east fork also) and the alternate “Bull of the Woods” Trail that leads to the summit of Taos Mountain from lower down in the Taos Ski Valley. Any of these areas could have been where Forrest dropped Olga’s ashes and I am not certain if one seems more obvious than any of the others. Did Forrest choose which area to make the drop based on the convenience of what worked with the vector his plane happened to be flying at the time, or was there something else that helped him decide?

    These were just some random thoughts of this area that I thought I would share. I don’t really think that the treasure is hidden where Olga’s ashes were dropped; I’m just wondering about this stuff for the sake of wondering.

    • Blex,
      Wheeler Peak elevation is 13000 plus, yet the altimeter in the picture on page 114 is at about 6300 ft. Certainly not on top of Taos mountain.

      • Eaglesabound, thanks for pointing that out. It’s interesting because the only area even remotely close to that elevation going out from Wheeler Peak are the plains a good way to the east; east of Cimarron, NM.

      • If the terrain you are flying over is 7k’ above sea level…and you are flying at 6300’… are you flying underground? Just curious…

        • Altimeters are set by the barometric pressure. In my town the airport is 700 feet. So, if you climb one thousand feet, your altimeter will read 1,700 feet. So, unless you know the barometric pressure that Forrest had his altimeter set at the time, the reading might be substantially higher than the above ground altitude.

      • His plane flying at 6300 ft anywhere near the Rockies in any state is an interesting piece of information… Certainly that may have triggered some color RED lights somewhere along his flight path?

        And then you add the fact that there is not enough time in the day to consume all the alcohol required to absorb the additional constant bombardment of clues, warnings, and opinions expressed on YouTube, blogs, and the forums: just hoping to gleam from them that very special final resting place Forrest decided on.

        It’s a good thing my parents named me Nick so that I could make a good enough drinking buddy to everyone, or maybe the correct every one.

        In the mean time, I’ll just smile, drink a cold one, and STAY SAFE!

        Thank you father!!!


      • EaglesKen –

        Often the altimeter is set to AGL and not elevation. Forrest would need to know where the ground was as opposed to where sea level is 5000 feet below.

        The Agua Fria airport is at 8000 feet. 6300 above that would be 14,300. The airport in Santa Fe is probably at 7000 of elevation. So 13,300.


      • if you are flying above 13000 ft, your plane is straining, and you have an oxygen mask on, in general you are not taking any pictures, you are busy making sure your plane is still flying. You take pictures when things are not straining.

        • writis – just fyi, Fenn sold his Piper Malibu Mirage in 2003…so I assume he owned the plane for awhile…since he sold the gallery in 1988…the story about Tea w Olga was likely before that (IMO). The Malibu was introduced in 1982/3, so its plausible he owned an early version. The reason people buy this plane is because it is pressurized and capable of cruising altitudes up to 27,000 feet, at relatively fast speeds (200 KIAS) for a piston aircraft (twin turbos). You are correct though that the Malibu is a pretty demanding aircraft to operate (high maintenance bills, but people love them), however, I think FF was not your normal hobbyist pilot, and this plane would have been great for him…pressurized, fast, still kinda cheap…and it looks good…they call it ‘ramp appeal’…something that would have helped sell paintings I think, and we know he knows how to schmooze customers. One drawback to the plane was the relatively long runway length needed for takeoff…minimum is 3000’, so FF would not have been dropping into dirt airfields or small runways…also, the airplane was known to have an easily damaged front nose gear, another reason he wouldn’t have been landing at sketchy airfields. One more tidbit for the rabbit holers: the airplane is a six seater but load was only 1300lbs or less depending on the engine, most say the real working range is about 1000 nautical miles with 4 people on board…so FF could have gone just about anywhere in the northern rockies without refueling until he landed (but recall he PROBABLY did not use a plane to do the hiding since he gave up his pilots license in 2004). All IMO IMO IMO.

        • Tbug/All: just an FYI regarding Olga Svoboda. A quote from Forrest: “Olga died in 1979 and I spread her ashes on Taos Mountain that same year. In 1980 we remodeled her little rooms into our gallery guest house.”

          • Thanks Zap…I stand corrected…so anyone know what other planes FF owned? It couldn’t have been the Malibu.

    • Blex, Blanco is next on your Bucket List, but note that “Pueblo Peak,” is the actual name of “Taos Mountain” in common Taos native tongue. it is the slightly smaller peak just South by SW of Wheeler, known to locals as AKA calls it Taos Mountain, it is after all impressive, and on the Taos Indian (Pueblo) Reservation.

      Wheeler is not on the Res.


      • Thanks, Tom Terrific. Wow, I don’t know where I picked up the notion that Wheeler Peak was Taos Mountain, but that’s a huge error on my part! Pueblo Mountain looks much more thickly forested around its summit than Wheeler, so I have no problem with Forrest making the call that he did now. All well, Wheeler Peak was a fun hike nonetheless!

        • Blex, one of the biggest problems with this treasure hunt is a frame of reference from the “local perspective”, for example, when you ask a Santa Fe Native about “Arroyo Seco, NM” the local lingo reply is “No paddle up your creek” cause as you translate this town at the foot of Pueblo Peak, it’s a dry creek, try paddling one of those.

          Now look for a “City Different” can you guess why?

          ¿ El ciudad diferente?


          • Tom Terrific, I can see Santa Fe comes right up as “City Different” after a quick Google search on that phrase (“#2 Best Small City in the US” says Conde Nast Traveler!”).

            That fact you mentioned about Arroyo Seco in the local lingo is interesting, but I can’t help but wonder what chance Forrest’s metaphorical redneck would have of finding the treasure if special local knowledge was needed to solve the poem. If local knowledge was needed to find the treasure, wouldn’t Forrest be playing favorites with the locals in the area of the treasure’s hiding space? I’ve always believed the idea that Forrest created & presented the Chase as a universal opportunity for anyone to find the treasure who can think in the right manner without any special knowledge.

    • My take from the Olga story was not so much exactly where FF released her but that location was not at the peak. For me, that hint goes with an ATF comment made along the way when asked if the treasure was at the very top and F’s comment went something like “Not at the top but pretty close.” I know that’s not exact but it’s the way i remembered it.

      • I dont think that the hint from Olga’s story is about the peak at all. The hint is deeper than that IMO. Its also my opinion that the reason this poem is not solved is because many searchers are not “deep thinking” as FF suggested would be needed.

          • Tarry scant is a synonym too, but define a hole or too far?
            Forrest has a million of em.


        • Flutterby – I agree. “Tea with Olga” has always captured my attention more than most other chapters of TTOTC for two main reasons:

          1.) The mentioned colors of the tea jump out to me as some sort of hint or aberration. I never use these as a driving factor in solving the poem, but when I do look at a geographic area that I might be interested in, I can’t help to try to see if I notice any of the tea colors close by in some form or another. They pop up abundantly throughout the Rockies in the forms of geographic names (e.g.: “Black Lake”, “Red Mountain”, “Green River”, etc.) so I don’t think that such a hint could be reliably used as a starting point, but perhaps a subtle confirmation that one may be looking in a promising area?

          2.) It gives some additional insight to Forrest’s thoughts on death and appropriate final resting places, which I think is an important factor of consideration in solving the poem, since we know that the treasure is hidden in the same spot that Forrest had originally chosen for his own final resting place. His comments in this chapter coupled with “in the wood” from the poem itself has always kept me searching in, or at the edge of, forested areas and away from open scrublands for example.

          • more importantly blex is that FF stated that the hints in the book ‘were not deliberately placed to aid the searcher’…(paraphrasing)…he also says they are ‘subtle’…seems to me the colors are too obvious in both how that chapter stands out and how many folks can immediately ‘see’ the hint(s)…I think not…IMO, I believe the hints will be shown to be very vague/creative/imaginative in their linkage to the chase…that said, I am playing Canasta still…no idea what the hints are. How many of us can cite the ‘weird’ stories in TTOT? For me Important Lit, Flywater and Tea w Olga are up there…but I have yet to figure out why. Good luck.

          • Well said, Tbug! You will get no argument from me on any of the points you made. Sometimes I wonder if the subtle hints amount to a pile of dust from which we are challenged to reconstruct a marble statue! Best to stick to the poem, methinks! 😉

      • Smokybaer – I think I know the ATF comment you are referring to. I think it was more along the lines of “it isn’t on top of a mountain, but it could be on the side of a mountain”. This is just from my memory too and not a direct quote.

        • @33:32 – Question: ”Did you just say a minute ago that it is not on the top of a mountain?”

          FF: ” I hope I didn’t say that. I’ll tell you that it isn’t on the top of any mountain. That’s a big clue because there’s lots of mountains out there. It may be close to the top”

          • good morning as i was walking Titan this morning
            and he was testing his boundaries and mine too. it occurred to me that Bubba is doing the same to this day what ya think Bubba? lol.
            i think it may be, in a big circle, around a mountain but I love that area by wheeler peak too. ive been up to the top near by, you can look down on the whole valley what a view from up there, i was there last week end. spent a couple days by a ranch near by I always feel a need to go back there if not just for the beauty ove it all. there is peace in that valley you all have a good day be safe. allways Jeff Titan, Ranee Burch, and Mom she wrote Forrest a letter not sure what it said or if he can even read it due to her massive stroke but she tried and there is a;ot to be said about that never give up she is a prime example of that. good day all you too Bubba.

  3. Alfana –

    Here is the unneeded reply to your post because you ask.

    The Fenn fortune is much greater than the value of the treasure. Shiloh, doesn’t need the money. He is certainly welcome to chase it. Forrest didn’t reduce his fortune to fit in the bronze box.

    The treasure is out there waiting for the person that solves the clues strikes the path for home.


  4. Zap –

    You said the only map Fenn has ever mentioned.
    What map is that you are referring to?


    • Lugnutz: surely you know the answer! I reiterate the Fenn non-answer: “I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out.”

        • Hi Ken, I was hoping to avoid being so blunt about it, but I agree that the whole exchange has grown tiresome.

          • Lugnutz: yes. Forrest never mentions the old blurry map of northern NM with the frog and gold atop it. I realize that map got a lot of mileage early on, but that was back when nearly everyone was focused on NM and there was endless chatter about Taos, Wheeler Peak and Olga Svoboda.

          • Zap –

            You will see it if you are reading the old posts and comments on M Walk, but I believe Forrest quotes Saunier.

          • Ken –

            That’s Saunier in January 2012:

            “Aha! And now you want me to tell you what I discovered? Well, here it is and it won’t cost you a percentage of the take if you find the treasure because of it.”

            Fenn in July 2014:

            Thanks for the question Ben.
            If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck.f

            And Forrest April 2014:

            It seems logical to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use logic to determine an important clue to the location of the treasure. Is someone doing that now and I don’t know it? It’s not what they say on the blogs that may be significant, it’s what they whisper. f

            There’s more, but there’s a lot to get through.

          • Lugnutz: Forrest borrows past searchers’ quotes all the time. Example: “In a word — yes.” This reply from Forrest to Diggin Gypsy (I believe under a different pseudonym) regarding the question of whether the blaze is a single object came from Saunier’s page a year prior to Marti’s question.

          • Zap –

            Here is the point. he made the comment about what they whisper on the blogs. You asked me which blogs I think he is talking about. I said Mountain Walk for one.

            Fenn seems to be drawing attention to some of the posts on that blog. Keep reading and you will find more.

            Many of the quotes that we commonly discuss as F quotes actually originate there.

          • Ken –

            I agree, but I do think there is more going on here. The easy part is that even as you read the posts and comments casually , the F quotes jump right off the page.

          • Lug,
            There is no whispering on blogs that are viewed publicly.
            Whatever you say on a blog is like telling everyone that has internet access to the blog(s).
            A whisper is from one person to another not millions.

            Email is a private whisper from one person to another.

          • Jake –

            You should be paying attention.
            You often attribute quotes to Fenn that are, in fact not his.

          • Lug,
            It doesn’t matter who’s quote it is.
            Anything you say on a blg is not a whisper.

          • Jake –

            You go ahead and stick with that. I am going to keep reading the blog that F has quote continually for 5 or 6 years.

            I’m sure the TC is somewhere right where you’ve been looking!

            Does the Cinnamon Bear you give a free night’s stay for every 10 you purchase?

          • Lugnutz: Richard’s blog is very interesting and informative — but about seemingly everything BUT the Chase. He has a knack for telling a tale, but no indication (so far as I’ve read) that he or anyone else that posted there in those first two years knew the first thing about solving the poem. But I have learned many interesting things, including how and when Michael Hendrickson lost his right leg below the knee. I had no idea! Talk about an upbeat guy in the face of that unlucky deal.

          • Zap –

            What if each response from Forrest on Mysterious Writings emanates from a source other than the mind of F?

            Does that change your perception of the distribution of hints?

            How many would have to occur this way before you took a look at your previous findings? How many would you like to see?

          • Lugnutz: what you may not fully appreciate is that whether Forrest is the original author, or borrows from another, or bastardizes a quote from a famous person, or shares part of an email he received from a searcher, in the end Forrest CHOSE that material for his own reasons. He can assert creative control simply in the picking of that particular material — whether it’s phrases, full sentences, or even pictures. For all practical purposes he has an infinite supply of this “raw material,” so he can craft any message he wants. It’s not all that different than creating a ransom note out of letters clipped from newspapers or magazines.

          • Zap –

            In your most recent denial I believe you moved closer to understanding the truth about how F answers questions.

            Good job!

          • Lugnutz: denial? Of what pray tell?

            Re: Saunier, I’ve (now) read every word on that blog, including all the comments. I’m richer for having done so because Richard is such a fantastic writer and has clearly been around the block a few times. He has a gift, and I’m sad that his contributions so abruptly ceased — coincidentally at about the time I first became Fenn-aware.

            Forrest chimed in there 7 times, some of those occasions quite famously (e g. surveying), and others more obscure. I’ve got to believe he and Richard met in Santa Fe at some point before Richard and his wife pulled up stakes and made their home conveniently mobile.

            I suspect Richard kept his cards closer to the vest than one might perceive from his blog, but nevertheless I don’t think he ever made the critical connection to put him on the path. I’d say he had plenty of company in the folks who posted there over the years.

          • Yeah.
            So you determined that blurry map was northern NM? I never saw where to match it up. It didn’t take long to realize, though, that even if I knew where it was, I would have a hard time aligning the map or the shapes with anything specific.

          • Hi Linda — yeah, I’ve been to Albuquerque enough times that I recognized it right away. I assume you’ve spotted the X that the map forms about an inch and a half above the upper left gold nugget. I’m sure that X has driven plenty of people crazy.

          • @ Jake – the quote from FF is “It’s not what they say on the blogs that may be significant, it’s what they whisper.” My take on that, and what Lug is presumably alluding to, is just that—information and tidbits that get alluded to on the blogs may contain significant relevance regarding TTOTC as opposed to other information that are more declarative in nature. Bloggers are hinting at things all the time, and, IMO, FF is saying that these “whispers” are (sometimes) relevant to the chase—-he should know, he designed it.

          • Bowmarc,
            I’m going to whisper something in your ear from this blog.
            Let me know if you’re the only one that got this whisper and will prove my point.
            Get it?

            Here, it’s not a whisper where all can see it.

          • @ Jake & Lug – I guess my point is, and what I thought Lug was referencing, is that some of the cryptic things that people post on a blog (basically hinting at something they have gleaned from some source related to TTOTC), as opposed something being bluntly/specifically/succinctly blogged about, is what FF was saying may contain a nugget of truth/inspiration regarding the solving of TTOTC puzzle and is what he referred to as a whisper. If either of you have figured out those tidbits, and/or FF has specifically/bluntly/succinctly written about what those whispers were and you picked up on it, kudos to you both for doing so. Let us not forget that FF is a writer and poet and may speak/write poetically, so a whisper can (and IMO does) mean something alluded to but not specifically defined regardless of how many people view/read it on a blog.

          • CGC –

            Just start reading through some of his blog posts and don’t forget the comments. Lots of words and phrases will jump right off the page at you!

          • Back then, when f made the comments, I related it to two things. Saunier’s site first and mountain walk. The second I thought for awhile was about that Sheridan lady who was telling everyone that she solved the chase. I didn’t tie anything in with Sheridan, but mountain walk offered good info at the time. What I took away from it was that Saunier’s site related to some of the things f had commented on, but Dal’s site was just to informative at the time. Dal’s site seemed to talk straight to f. Being new, Dal’s site was the place to start to get a good jump on the chase. But Lug is right, at one time, it seemed like Saunier and f were talking. Now, I don’t remember what made me think this way, but at the time, I remember thinking Saunier had some kind of link, or f was addressing the site at times. (anybody call me “Ford” and we’re fighti’.)

            With that said, I, like Zap, didn’t take to much away from the site.
            About the map on page 133, I believe that the gold nuggets actually are manipulated. The main nugget you can see with the pic of the chase, and it’s obvious. It looks like the landscape of the area the chest is in. IMO. Only because that’s what the landscape looks like. So, go to GE, elevate to about 30,000 feet. Go to Deer valley, Deer Lodge, Anaconda area Montana.

            I’m sure there are many places that can tie in the landscape to look just like the nuggets, so I’m not saying this is the place, I’m saying that there are tie ins to the landscape to that map. It’s obvious that the nuggets have been manipulated. In that sense, it’s good to find out why. I picked 30,000 feet because basically that is where planes are. This, as discussed by Ken, is part of f having fun. The little things. I remember thinking about this when visiting Saunier’s site long ago. Like I said, don’t remember why, just did. As far as most quotes and everything else chase related, it has been this site as the Alpha dog of sites.
            I think f does get some of his quotes from other sources. Maybe a little twist by him, but his comments at times come from other sources other then his brain. I’m sure emails to him are a good source. So I’m with Lug. But Zap is right, early on, searchers had no clue on how to solve the poem. In fact, that is the first year solves we sometimes talk about. You can’t tell the first year searchers anything because they don’t know yet, but early on is where the throw the darts at a dart board thought came from. Just pick a place, line it up to what they think the clues are, and research the history. No actual solving. Those solves are still abundant today, but that’s what follows with new searchers.

            Anywhere where you can find info to help you is important. Other searchers, f, blogs, etc…One person alone will not solve this, everything must be looked at. If you get just one thing, like I did from Saunier’s site, then that could change everything. Have to deal in facts though, hear-say is everywhere.

          • CreepingCharlie –

            Maybe you are coming around?

            Yesterday someone remarked that Robert Miller, the intruder at Fenn Compound, followed Fenn’s advice and wore orange.

            Of course, that’s Richard’s advice, not Fenn’s…

  5. Like Taos Mountain and its larger brother, Wheeler, ther are two seperate names for great ranges of the Southern Rockies, yes many places there WWWH, IMO: FIrst the “Sangre De Cristos” and then “San Juans”, there are some similarities and distinctions, one flows mostly to the Pacific Ocean, the other the Atlantic Ocean.

    Many riches Old and New like the of Silver and Gold mines where strikes in “Elizabeth Town, NM” https://pubs.usgs.gov/bul/0620n/report.pdf” But the bigger strikes were in San Juans a little north of the border of New Mexico at Silverton/Ouray/Telluride CO etc.. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gold_mining_in_Colorado ….

    These discoveries were primarily the reason for building the Narrow Gauge RR system into the heart of the Rockies, but later Cattle, Lumber and Coal were the main commodities moved by the trains. Without the trains to transport goods, most of these little mountain towns would never have existed. Trains eclipsed the Old Santa Fe Trail, Cimarron Trail, Chisholm Trail, and the masses could ride the RR’s for a modest fee, these Iron Horses that Galloped were a magic carpet on rails, and always had a telegraph for communications, not just mail and it produced many tourist attractions for fishing, hunting and later skiing and beautiful sightseeing and of course inspired the artist colonies.

    IMO “Heavy Loads and steamed by Waters High”.

    By far the most sublime stanza is this:

    “So why is it that I must go
    And leave my trove for all to seek?
    The answers I already know,
    I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak.”

    This to me is the only stanza which is not geographical, some kind of hint, unless it explains ff’s quest to save the Rockies, or defines “Too Far To Walk”, it is for him now, a memory, just a vapor which begs a question (s) be answered? What is it, who knows the real answers?

    Why has Forrest lived in the Southern Rockies for 50 years? Because he chose too.


    • TT, Fenn could be stating that he ‘already knows the answer’ (because he’s been there before) as a hint to searchers that he is at a place known for giving ‘answers’… a college campus, a mission or church, a library … or a natural place similar to the cave and stream where Delphic Oracles are given … but in the Rockies. Perhaps a place where Indian boys went to gain their answers, their spirit-guide name.

  6. i like many scrutinize every word from Fenn. Here is a quote that i am curious about : “the chest is very definitely in the rocky mountains” . Now why did he have to add “very definitely” to his statement? Is this a hint? Does it hint that the chest is IN the Rocky mountains as in buried ?

    • Can you point to the quote in its context, Arnold? I can’t seem to find it.

      Could be someone’s paraphrase*, or maybe in response to an interview statement of the “some skeptics say you never actually hid a treasure” kind?

      *(+The treasure is definitely in the Rocky Mountain+ does appear in a list on the Illinoisghost site, but in a mixed list of some actual quotes and some paraphrased info, much like the Cheat Sheet here on HoD)


    • Hi Arnold,

      We saw something similar in SB73, “…My English teacher in high school told me that “There is no such thing as very unique. Either it’s unique or it isn’t and unique doesn’t need to be qualified.” I never liked that woman. …”

  7. Here is a big easter egg for everybody. FF’s quote about secrets in the book and he has also repeated it several times. Last night I was watching some youtube videos, and he had a second part that I’ve never seen anyone cite.

    “Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead…
    …The fact is there are no secrets. There are just.. some stories just haven’t been told yet.” Lorene Mills Interview 4/27/2013.

      • IMO, you can’t harbor secrets and find the treasure – they are mutually exclusive. All will be revealed…

    • Emma, thanks for sharing that!

      Going along that same line of thinking, if there’s no one left to keep a secret and the story is never told, then all that is left is a mystery.

      That’s why I always seem to get so passionate about wanting whoever finds the treasure to reveal the solution to the general public. It’s the conclusion of a tremendous story that deserves to be told.

    • Fenn probably has the story of the SECRET WHERE in his computer ready to be told after the TC is found.

  8. This is nothing about Indulgence but it is scenes — great photos — that sort of simulate the search.


    I promote the website just because his work deserves to be trafficked.
    I promote this website other places; Dal’s sterling work.
    I don’t know him or Dal and they don’t know me.
    Like a bee contaminating (-: from flower to flower. Fruit happens.

    • Alsetenash,

      Could you please break down your comment? Some things just fly over my head. I read every one of your comments and enjoy your every word! Your thought process are Nostradamus-like and he has always been thought provoking to me. Thank you in advance.

      • ByGeorge

        You make a good point in that Alsetenash is very bright. Most of us our tungsten bulbs and Al is an LED!

      • George – Alsetenash was saying that this is the 9th winter (gestation meaning time to think, not search). IMO.

      • ByGeorge , Zap and Tbug got it right! Thanks for your kind words ByGeorge, Zap and Lug! Humbled am I ,for I didn’t think what I write was at all much gleaned here.

        I was busy here in Canada yesterday since 4:20 am entertaining some buds! LOL .

        Yes, The 9th of 9 is what Zap said. Time to think, research, and meditate through the conscious activation of the Pineal Gland! The Pineal Gland is the portal access of the greatness of the Left and Right hemispheres of the brain- unity consciousness! Aka-Michel de Nostredame, the visionary Time Traveler. I too see the subconscious influence in the consciousness in the creation of FF’s poem; this is the numbers to be deduced in the poem , in my opinion. Not consciously purposed by FF, in my opinion. But a natural occurance by synergistic of the levels of consciousness.

        ByGeorge, what my comment also meant by me is ,9 is the number of completion. 1 is beginnings. 2018 is an 11 ( master number) 2019 is a 3. 2019 makes it 9 years for this chase. A gut feeling is a now response from a past knowing from experience. So, if FF had a gut feeling that I may be found this summer of 2018; perhaps someone has ‘mastered ‘the clues in the poem”??? Though what remains is they have yet to “find it yet ,still!???

        So, I said 9th of 9 is a way of saying ‘ 9 of 9 ( like page 1/3, 2/3, 3/3,so 9/9 is of this flow) as 9th year of 9. So, to me, this is the strongest potential for and “ending”- 9 of 9 or 9/9.

        FF quote:

        “No Mike, everything in the chest is straight forward and visual, except my autobiography, which some might find dull. Oops, I forgot, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues. I think that person will be pleased when she sees it. f”

        He says there, ‘ saved especially for the person that SOLVES the clues! I’ll point out he didn’t say ‘Finds the chest’.

        I say 9th of 9 because I think all that is left is the ‘Solver of the clues” just has to actually find it. Next year is the 9th of 9 . Meaning: very strong potential fo an ending, IMO .

        The last winter for gestation before birth! (Manifestation, completion)

        That is my breakdown you asked ,ByGeorge,


        • Good to have you and your wisdom back in the chase Alset. Did they change the leaf on the Canadian flag to the more recently appropriate leaf yet?

          • Thanks Aaron! Haha,many have made their own type of flags. It’s too bad I work in the oil and gas industry here , so I can’t smoke it due to pee testing. My contract recently was completed so I am looking for work again. Pee test hiring requirements unfortunately.

          • My last two posts “Time” equals 9!! . I didn’t even notice untill after my last post of 3:33 and then prior 3:06 lol. I experienced my Pineal Gland opening in 2008, painful it was – 3 times in one month episodes. I was in so much neurological pain that my friend went to a neighbors to get some for me. Saved me, I slept for 18 hours each time. Never happened again though. Felt like I was being electrocuted or struck by lightning.

          • Let’s see if there’s something to unconscious numbers. Today is a 3. I wonder if a MW post will happen today? Lol . If not, well , my numbers theory bites the dust .

        • Alsetenash,
          Don’t ever stop posting! so what you’re saying is that someone has solved the clues so far but thry can’t locate the chest? I thought the special thing was inside the chest? So where would one find the chest aftrr the 9 clues? Can you reason with an opine? Please do oh leafeless one. 🙂 I patiently await your wisdom Sir.

          • ByGeorge, first off, i dont know anything lol. I just have my way of analyzing FF’s method of his use of language. I don’t see codes of any sort in the poems configuration in any way shape or form. But outside of the poem, when he communicates , I see and sense that he does speak in variable codes in his stories and word configuration. I see many here do also and many don’t .

            In my theoretical deductions ,I see there are different levels of this taking place; I can use words describing these methods as dimensions or densities. But keep it simple because he speaks truth in his stories. Truth is way more simplistic in conveyance than in the telling of false tales. IMO

            So, when he speaks, such as answering questions, he is truthful.

            So, his gut feeling about this year being the year ;was him saying he truthfully knows something. His gut was a guess relative on something he actually knows. I therefore deduce this to a core; a potential that ,though it’s not been found, someone probably solved the clues and the poem. From there, applying it to the correct location and then finding it at the correct location /area is another journey. That being said, having solved the clues and poem probably would mean the solver is in the right area also. Anyone who’s done BOTG knows that the path to it in an area is difficult. It may take numerous attempts ,as FF eluded to.

            I don’t want to say too too much here, understand. Just like everyone else, it is wise to not give triggers!

            What is key he talks about allot, is imagination. The tile to the gold is Indulgence- the non name of the poem. That’s what’s in the chest.

          • I meant title to the gold ,not tile.

            “She” is “Indulgence” . To clearify my opinion. ” pleased to see your Indulgence.” . Pleased when she sees it.


          • Alsetenash,
            Thank you. I was just curious on your take of it. Enjoy your evening and maybe Forrest will get around to that SB or Q&A. Thanks again!

    • ByGeorge: the ninth wintering of Indulgence (2010-2018), and the opportunity for Forrest’s gut feeling to return in 2019.

  9. I was traveling in the shadow of Santa Fe, NM and came across a petroglyph that I found very intriguing. Along with the normal symbols one might find, it also had the initials HES and date 11_1916. Any ideas who this was? I took a picture of it, but not sure how to post it to this forum.

    • I’ve seen a few dates written in charcoal on canyon walls from the late 1800s and early 1900s, they’re often beside the debris from rancher’s or shepard’s camps. I’m assuming from your wording that the initials and date were beside some native petroglyphs? Unlikely you’ll figure anything out from the initials unless it matches an owner in that area and time period.

  10. Anyone interested in a kmz file that can be used with GE to show what the USGS states is the boundary for the Rocky mountains in the 4 search states?

  11. Need a Quote Expert- it seems like FF was asked a question about whether anything in the TC was a hint to its hiding place. I know this is not the correct wording but hopefully you get the gist of the question. Where did I read this and what was said?

    • Flutterby: it took me a while, but I think I found what you’re looking for. It’s an often-quoted MW Featured Question from over 4 years ago:

      “Are there any objects placed in the Bronze Chest that are connected, or have meaning to the place the chest is hidden? ~ Mike”

      “No Mike, everything in the chest is straight forward and visual, except my autobiography, which some might find dull. Oops, I forget, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues. I think that person will be pleased when she sees it. f”

      • That is the quote I was asking about Zaphod. Thank you.

        Why “she”?

        And now that I am looking at the quote, it does not clarify what I was looking for. I was wondering if the word “waters” might use the definition in which waters can mean clarity of a gemstone. FF did go into detail about the stones in the bracelet. And Ive been intrigued by the use of “Lapus Lazuli” sky since first reading Looking for Lewis & Clark. It was a word I had to look up because I had never heard of it. Turns out that its a brilliant blue gemstone which could suggest waters= clarity of a gemstone

        • Hey-O, Flutterby

          “Waters” (plural) does not, to my knowledge, refer to the clarity of gemstones. You can have a “diamond of the first water”, which does refer to clarity, but I’ve never seen “waters” (plural) used in that context. I’ve also only seen it in the context of clear, transparent gems. And it’s not really a technical clarity measurement (in the sense that, say, carat is as a measure of weight).

          Lapis Lazuli, like turquoise, is an opaque precious stone (no clarity). It was used to make a very expensive blue paint (the original ultramarine), so a rather natural artsy/poetic way to refer to a sky color. Ultramarine is now a very common blue paint color, but wasn’t synthesized until the early 19th (I think) century.


          • I agree Jake. I just somehow got wondering about it and wanted to consider the quote. Nothing that I see in the poem would suggest to me that waters is talking about clarity. Sometimes I just re-analyze things and I was doing that. I remain firm with the 3 solves Im currently working on

      • That is the quote I was asking about Zaphod. Thank you.

        Why “she”?

        And now that I am looking at the quote, it does not clarify what I was looking for. I was wondering if the word “waters” might use the definition in which waters can mean clarity of a gemstone. FF did go into detail about the stones in the bracelet. And Ive been intrigued by the use of “Lapus Lazuli” sky since first reading Looking for Lewis & Clark. It was a word I had to look up because I had never heard of it. Turns out that its a brilliant blue gemstone which could suggest waters= clarity of a gemstone

    • So, he thought the poem was telling him to “put in through the hole of brown”? And where was he getting the reference to “sog”?

      I give this solve a final score of 0.3 (a few tenths of a point for originality).

      • Blex, that was a more than generous final score. “Hole of Brown”….hmmm. I think he may have unwittingly coined a new search term that will forever be associated with him.

    • Which is why I take hear me all and listen good quite literally. Seems to be my kryptonite as well. Still I keep trying. Just gently slap me upside the head if you need to f. You have my permission.

      • Deepscout-
        I believe it’s a Taurus Judge…so called because of the number of judges that carry it into the courtroom for protection. It fires both .45 cartridges and 410 shotgun shells. A lot of folks like to load it up with alternating 410 and .45 in the cylinder…

        • Well I’ll be. Learned something new. Wouldn’t want to be shooting a revolver with .410, though. Ouch.

    • I’m glad that he wasn’t shot, then again………

      I glad to see good restrain with F, Zoe and police, however the intruder will suffer in the end.

      I hope this is the last in dealing with weird people for F and family.

      Lets get it done so all can relax!

    • Totally uncalled for and unacceptable. Breaking and entering will get you shot in my neck of the woods. He even had a beer out of the fridge, for Pete’s sake! Mr. Fenn is a very forgiving man in my book. Way to go, Zoe!

  12. I can’t imagine how stressful that situation was for the Fenns. The intruder didn’t think about the what if’s,. This is unacceptable and there is no excuse for his behavior! Maybe he should have bought a lottery ticket instead of a plane ticket, it would have cost he less money in the long run!

  13. Well–This guy didn’t know how close he was to finding the Blaze..He was about to experience the Guns A Blazing,if not for the Fenns and police showing a little patience and mild force..

  14. Whoa. Someone needs help. Should have went to Kammerers water hole for a few.
    Its NLA now. But Aspen is still there. I am shocked by that. Traumatize the Fenn family
    Gee. please think first. It a massive history and massive search area. Three things to ponder as important to Forrest.. Peggy. Indians. Fly fishing. Some where in that mix could
    be an answer. Mark.

  15. I know there are those that may be going out one last time before Winter. Was wondering if anyone saw the article yesterday on MSN regarding the guy attacked by a griz? Luckily the guy had a buddy with him with two zaps of bear spray. (that’s spray talk, Zap wasn’t there).
    Elk hunters, walked up onto a momma and cub, cub reared up, Momma charged. Broke the guys arm in two places, mauled his face, and put him in the hospital. My point,
    Be safe, isn’t this the time bears are stocking up for the Winter? This happened in Livingston, just outside of Bozeman. His comments, he hoped the wildlife rangers wouldn’t go out and euthanize the bear. He seemed to be in good spirits. These were hunters, familiar with what they were doing, and this happened. He said if he had to guess, she weighed about 500 lbs. His arm was in her mouth, ARM. Nothing like going hunting and having a four legged Great White Shark charging at you. And a reminder, the first spray of bear spray just made the bear turn to his buddy. Luckily, the second spray got the bear to leave, or those guys would have been f%&#$*^.

  16. Ken, I think FF loves to have fun. However, we shouldn’t forget how much strain must be involved in handling something of this magnitude for so long. And despite the fun, I am convinced that this is not a game, although we may be close to the “end game.”

    Think for a moment what that would be like. One person pockets a bunch of gold and everyone else either licks their wounds, rants about “unfairness,” or waits for the book and the movie. And Fenn gradually fades from view. Is that really the kind of scenario that FF had in mind? I don’t think so. Maybe Bill only got it part right:

    All the world’s a stage,
    And all the men and women merely players;
    They have their exits and their entrances;
    And one man in his time plays many parts,
    His acts being seven ages. At first the infant,
    Mewling and puking in the nurse’s arms;
    And then the whining school-boy, with his satchel
    And shining morning face, creeping like snail
    Unwillingly to school. And then the lover,
    Sighing like furnace, with a woeful ballad
    Made to his mistress’ eyebrow. Then a soldier,
    Full of strange oaths, and bearded like the pard,
    Jealous in honour, sudden and quick in quarrel,
    Seeking the bubble reputation
    Even in the cannon’s mouth. And then the justice,
    In fair round belly with good capon lin’d,
    With eyes severe and beard of formal cut,
    Full of wise saws and modern instances;
    And so he plays his part. The sixth age shifts
    Into the lean and slipper’d pantaloon,
    With spectacles on nose and pouch on side;
    His youthful hose, well sav’d, a world too wide
    For his shrunk shank; and his big manly voice,
    Turning again toward childish treble, pipes
    And whistles in his sound. Last scene of all,
    That ends this strange eventful history,
    Is second childishness and mere oblivion;
    Sans teeth, sans eyes, sans taste, sans everything.

    Maybe there’s an eighth “chapter.”

        • Although “listen” gets discussed occasionally, it doesn’t seem to attract the in-depth coverage of WWWH, HoB, The Blaze, etc. If there’s one thing I’ve learnt along the way, it’s that not only is “listening” absolutely essential to solving the poem, but it’s also at the heart of the Chase rationale.

          Having said that, it’s neither an easy, nor necessarily a comfortable thing to do. It’s like tuning your mind to a different wavelength where everyone’s speaking a foreign language. You have to concentrate like there’s no tomorrow, and try to pick out the fragments that seem to have some coherence. And every once in a while, you might be startled by something that seems like it arrived from elsewhere in the galaxy.

          One thing I came across as I attempted to study “Listening 101” was this article. If you’re a musician you might find it generally interesting, but the section titled “Omega 6” is particularly fascinating:


          And I was struck by the odd and unexplained final sentence in that section:

          “Generally, it is at this moment that readers are the most perplexed.”

  17. You’re welcome, Twingem.

    Things may revolve, devolve or evolve. I think the latter is potentially the most intriguing.

      • There was a scrapbook or similar (I don’t remember the details) in which FF talked about setting aside an hour a day to think. He repeated that suggestion in the Business Insider interview:

        ‘So he entered the art business, opening the Old Santa Fe Trading Co. He says that sitting down and thinking allowed him to achieve success.

        “People today are too busy to think,” Fenn said. “There is so much going on in the world, and they are distracted. My advice would be to set aside an hour each day to just think. Don’t rule out any idea.” ‘

        What I think is going on here is deep meditation. That’s essentially the same as listening. You lay yourself open to “higher” influences, and act on the information received. This is pretty much what’s required to solve the poem, IMO. And if it becomes a habit, it could be used to direct your actions should you be lucky enough to retrieve the chest.

        I know that this type of thing prompts some to tell me to “get a grip,” 😉 but that sort of putdown will not change my firmly held belief.

        • Vox, there are so many things that Forrest says without ever directly saying them imo. His many, many, many pleas for folks to mediate are never directly stated as “meditate!!!!” Yet I can point to about 20+ examples where Forrest is trying to get folks to meditate. It’s truly an art form that I hope to master in my lifetime. But I think it may be an exhausting art for its practioners. And yet they believe their messages are so important, they accept the hard work of that practice. My dad dedicate the last half if his life to that practice too.

          I tend to just get right down to the fling of it and folks may not be ready for what follows. But ready or not, it does get folks thinking…. And thats always a good thing.

          I’d love to meet you someday Vox. I feel I know you already.

          • TG, I’m terrible at meditating – very impatient and easily distracted. But the Chase forced a kind of meditation on me. It wasn’t as peaceful and relaxed as genuine meditation, but it was extremely intense. And in the end, whatever works…

            However, I’m now more inclined to take up the practice again. It’s mainly a question of discipline (another area that is not a strong point for me).

            Although I’ve published where I think WWWH is (and why), my belief that numbers are critical, and the kind of markers that are out there to help us in our path (and most are readily identifiable as Chase-related), it would be counterproductive to go much further. If we don’t do the work ourselves, we will not earn the prize, and the listening will not have taken place. This is why I don’t think this can be a group-think exercise. People’s published ideas may spark a line of thought, but it needs to be subject to quiet, private, and lengthy reflection.

            As for meeting, that would be great, but I’m afraid I probably live thousands of miles from you, and have no plans to return to the US any time soon; but maybe one day…

  18. Can someone point me to Forrest’s quote about the search being an arduous one for a searcher without all the clues, but a straight(?) one for someone with all the clues?
    Thanks, EOG

    • Hope this is what you were looking for: “A dare went out to everyone who possessed a sense of wanderlust; study the clues in the book and thread a tract through the wiles of nature and circumstance to the treasure. If you can find it, you can have it.” f JDA

          • Thanks CGC, I would have to check but I believe Illinois Ghost is the person quoted when Fenn wrote I’ve been sitting for 15 minutes and I’ll pass. Either him o r Saunier.

          • Zap

            F’s response comes two years after the same phrase is used by Saunier. But I believe Saunier was quoting or referring to IG.

            I will grab it even though you claim to have read them all.

          • Lug: I look forward to it! While I’ve read every word of Richard’s blog (and frankly would like about 8 hours of my life back for some of the inane posts made there by others), a single reading is insufficient to make very many cross-connections. For instance, I’ve read TTOTC, TFTW and OUAW at least 50 times each, and yet with each reading I can still find things I’ve missed on prior passes — and wondered how I missed them.

          • Zap,
            You wrote:
            “… I can still find things I’ve missed on prior passes — and wondered how I missed them.”

            Check out “pineal gland”, “third eye”, or “mind’s eye”. Is it possible your conscious mind was not yet prepared to ‘See’ what was written? Do some concepts, ideas, or thoughts require an evolutionary process within the mind?

            I’ve come to believe our conscious minds are far too subjective and constrained by biases forged by what we’re “taught” and what most will see and hear on a daily basis. If we choose to seek it, the subconscious mind is far and away the superior arbiter of truth.

            How do we discern between conscious and (wakeful) subconscious thought? Are there alternatives to what is considered traditional meditation? Does food, water, and some pharmaceuticals affect our ability to access and maintain deep subconscious thought?

            Simply questions and opinions – anyone interested should conduct their own research…


          • I agree Joe. The subconscious has more than we can fathom just locked away. Deep in our subconscious we probably all know where the chest lies.

        • Lug: shame on you… never read the dust jacket? That’s very out-of-character for you!

          • Ha!

            I don’t even know where the dust jacket is!

            I do not ever read them and I don’t read dedications or blurbs. I just read the book.

            My wife got a really extraordinary snippet or quote to include on her back cover and it made me feel proud.

            Now I’m wondering where I put the Chase cover for safe keeping…

          • Lug: you are indeed a character! That’s what makes the Chase so fun. I don’t recall who posted it recently, but did you read the tome about the evolution of the number of keys on a piano(-forte)? I tell you, I’m dumbfounded that there are musicians or composers out there who feel that 7 1/4 octaves just aren’t enough to get their message across. 😉

          • Zap –

            I have not read the post about the piano keys. I am actively looking for an electric piano and mulling choices like Wurlitzer vs Rhodes.

            I have learned a better appreciation for the piano over the past 4 years. The song I recorder most recently includes piano and this has lead me to seek them out.

            Maybe you or Vox has a link to that discussion?

            BTW – each morning I check to see if you have sent mean email. Is the time not drawing nigh?

          • Hi Lug: there are still people I know that are out searching at least through next week. I also don’t have your email. Perhaps you can have Dal forward it my way.

          • Zap/Lug, the piano thread was a little up-thread and was posted by Voxpops. I read it too and towards the end the author says that he is French, so my guess is there are a few translation issues. For me it read very much like he is a piano tuner/technician, and while he touches on the idea that people simply stopped asking for more keys (I think there is connection with the types of music from those historical times), it seemed he was more concerned about the ‘could you’ than the ‘should you’. The article was focused on acoustic pianos, I thought it interesting that in our electronic world it is fairly common for keyboards to be much smaller than a full 88 keys (for a gigging musician you have to be able to move it, so smaller is better), but also, with all the software out there, you can make just about any sounds with only 1 octave…playing live that might not work, but for recording it certainly does. Lug – glad you’re expanding your musical horizons…that takes talent so many people do not understand how difficult it is to play an instrument, much less multi task…those who can sing and play are amazing to me…drums is so foreign…you have to use all your limbs, and sometimes all doing something different…I am not coordinated enough…fingers are hard enough (bass/guitar), anyway the reason vox recommended it was reference to omega (the prototype the piano guy built) being ‘an end’…nothing that eye opening to me.

  19. And a little extra courtesy of MW:

    “…..study the clues in the book and thread a tract through the wiles of nature and circumstance to the treasure. If you can find it, you can have it. I warned the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” (Flap on map in Too Far to Walk)

    • That must be it. I thought there was something about arduous. Guess not. Thank you very much JDA & Voxpops. EOG

  20. Those look like the most useful chase items yet! Would you take payment in shares of the treasure once I go pick it up?

    Thanks, I got a chuckle out of that.

  21. A morning’s journey …

    I’d been thinking about the Saunier’s flip-of-the-map thing this morning… didn’t think it had much validity, and wondered why he wrote so many words about it but didn’t post a photo of his unfuzzed, flipped map to illustrate his message.

    I moved on to other thoughts about Warm Waters and Browns … like a little girls coffee… and a cup “that all but covered her whole face.” She led FF thru the literary canyons of store #1 to the ‘homes’ of Hemingway and Fitzgerald. Could the ‘home’ of Brown be a reference to an alphabetical location on a shelf?

    So I wiki’d Dan Brown who is probably more read today than Hem & Fitz & Sal. Quite a treasure oriented family background! Very interesting, and i clicked on AMBIGRAM, which then brought me (flipped me?) back to Saunier’s graphic flip. And other discussions about graphics in TTOTC and ATFs.

    I’ll let you check them both out, and go further down the trail, I’m tired and weak now. And chili & cornbread is calling me.

    • Hi OS2 –

      Remember Richard is not always telling you the truth, he’s telling yo a half truth, or half again…

      • Thanks Lug, always nice to know when somebody reads your post. Brown is so much more interesting than those other tortured writers. Followed the Kryptos link to a cryptic sculpture on CIA grounds (colloquially known as ‘the farm’ last century) … but for Chase purposes, Brown’s home is in Rye. … kinda rings like the far key on Vox’s 108 key piano.

        • I don’t know if you read something I discussed previously.

          Here is the quote from the Inferno movie

          Ancient fisherman learned to sail where the warm water met the cold. The small fish would stop at the edge of the warm waters and the big fish would come out of the cold water and eat them

          Borders, edges doorways

          I don’t know that there is a Dan Brown connection but when I heard that line I looked around the plane to see if there were any other Chasers!

          • Lugnutz: Dan Brown can spin a yarn (as evidenced by his success as a writer, and the number of his books made into movie) but when it comes to treasure hunting or cryptography he is a piker.

          • I hadn’t heard that quote… but its a provocative example about borders, edges, doorways… and lists, rails, ridges, portals, beams, outlines, rope lines, shorelines, banks, & quicks. Sorry Lug, I’ve turned into a word vomiter.

          • Zac, Where is your Wiki page? Don’t leave me with the impression that your the piker full of yourself.

          • OS2: I’m not particularly motivated to disabuse you of your preconceived notions. But I’ll leave you with this: I’m the only one who has ever found over 100 comets, over 100 meteorites, and over 1000 asteroids. I look forward to adding a particular bronze chest to the resume at some point.

          • As for Dan Brown, I feel quite qualified to opine on his faulty notions about Jim Sanborn’s KRYPTOS sculpture since I’ve spent over 15 years tackling that particular problem.

          • I am disabused, yet somehow still abused. I never found a comet, … wished on a star once, but here we both are on the same carrousel with a thousand other paupers and princes all grasping for the golden ring.

          • Zap –

            Are you saying you have been working on Passage 4 for 15 years?

            Well you are in the right place sort of. I suspect the solution will be related to another Blaze. The trinity site or the work leading up to it at the Omega site.

            Tut’s tomb and Trinity being the book ends of the age of enlightenment, so to speak.

          • Lugnutz: yep, K4. (OBKRUOXOGHULBSOLIFBB…) Like Forrest’s poem, I’ve got those pesky 97 characters memorized. About the only thing we can say about Jim’s encryption technique is that there is a long list of things that it isn’t (e.g. not Quagmire I, II, III or IV, not Playfair, not Slidefair, not Two Square or Four Square, and not transposition of any type). I’ve taken a break from it for most of the last 3 1/2 years to tackle a particular 24-line poem.

          • Zap –

            I wouldn’t say it’s not transposition. Isn’t a column code transportation?

            It’s all about the Berlin Clock. Have you spent a lot of time on clocks now?

          • Lugnutz: (OT warning to others): transposition could be *involved*, but it’s definitely not transposition alone. Sanborn has also been pretty adamant about NYPVTT=BERLIN letter for letter, which eliminates most transposition systems (though a key could be transposed). Thankfully we don’t have to worry about any of this with Fenn’s poem.

          • Zap

            Build the Berlin Clock physically.

            A cylinder with bands that rotate. The bands are different lengths but the columns still align.

            Multiple inputs from one band produce (or represent) the same result in another band.

            You have to build it because it’s hard to picture.

            Anyhoot, as you say, this ain’t Kryptos. Here we
            each build our own cage. Yours is rather nicely furnished.

          • I don’t know Lug. 97 characters? What age was Forrest in the Summer of ’97? 66. What is the 6th letter of the alphabet? 🙂
            He has his signature all over it. (lol, and if anybody believes that, well……)

    • Hi Vox — sorry for the lack of attribution! — yes, ’twas you who shared the link. I prefer pianoforte, particularly in relation to Fenn. The yinyang of “soft-loud” melds nicely with Forrest’s poem of antonym pairs.

      • I took that piano article (I think what you’re referencing) to be more about not ‘soft-loud’ but rather ‘muddy-clear’, in that for bass you get too many harmonics/overtones that muddy up the true fundamental (the string will naturally go through the other harmonics after it is struck, for bass, the longer/heavier the string, the longer the damping). Now for the treble side, the article talks about clarity more from the volume standpoint because at the short lengths of wire (30 mm) it simply won’t ring very long…and did you catch the tensions! 1 ton! (I play bass/guitar in a little local band, not quitting our dayjobs, but I am the tech nerd of the bunch if you couldn’t tell).

  22. Paraphrasing, Mr. Fenn said that “the hints in the TTOTC book , are in the aberrations at the edges” At the edges of what? He said to “read the book slowly, and look for things that catch up in your mind”. The only things I see in TTOTC that stand out, are things that seem to be out of context with the rest of the story line.

    • I have to challenge your paraphrase there, James.

      The actual quote is ” . . . if you read the book [TotC] . . . there are a couple of good hints, and then there are a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge.”

      Some read that as ‘there are a couple of good hints, and then there are a couple of *really* good hints.’

      Personally I lean more towards the reading ‘there are a couple of good hints, and then there are a couple of rabbit holes.’

      Recall that there’s also –

      “Don’t force those kind of aberrational thoughts on yourself or you’ll likely walk back to your car with a very light backpack.” f


      “Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem.” f


    • Here’s my favorite comment about the hints in TTOTC.
      “The hints in The Thrill of the Chase book will not be made public because they would say more than I want to reveal. Discovering which hints to use is part of the mystery.”

      This was in response to a question if the hints would be written about or disclosed at some point. Who doesn’t like a good mystery….?

      • I love a good mystery. I see “Death on the Nile” is going to made for a release December 2019.

      • “…they would say more than I want to reveal.”

        To whom, right? Those incredibly revealing hints have not been understood by the person thinking the right thoughts, or it would have been a game changer it seems.

        I understand that just by the fact of pointing them out will increase the chances of being picked up. But I often wonder if Forrest comes out and says, ‘there is a big hint in the -blank- chapter of ttotc’, how long until someone can figure out the right connection?

        • This is where I think the subconscious comes into play. It is the act of “thinking” and “opening up” that is more important than any particular hint that might be out there. I believe Fenn is more interested in us exercising our faculties than picking out the right hint and linking it to the right clue. Thinking “in the right way” will begin to open doors. Looking for clues or hints all over the place may not ever bear fruit. My experience has been that these things only make sense after you’ve found the answer through deep contemplation.

          • I agree Vox. I’ll add that the The hardest part about this is the “thinking in the right way”. A searcher has to be able to apply some deep thinking and imagination, which can be challenging in itself. When an idea comes up that doesn’t work to take you precisely to the chest some agile thinking must be involved.

            The searcher has to be able to change their thoughts and focus in a new direction. Thinking in the right way another way. Until this is done over and over by a deep thinker the chest won’t be found IMO. I believe some of the best thinkers here get too sold on their solve to be able to change gears and think in an alternate right way. If the way one is thinking doesn’t lead them precisely to the chest then it cannot be the right right way can it?

          • Vox, sorry but like it has been explained here many times before, if you convince yourself that a hint will only help you after you have solved a clue, you are only increasing your chances of falling in a confirmation bias trap. Lets go back to the instructions:

            1. Read the book normally (this means as reading any other book without looking for hints)
            2. Read, read, read and memorize the poem and thinking deeply about the clues.
            3. Read the book again slowly and looking for things (hints) that can help you with the clues.

            He has NEVER said to solve the clues and find confirmation in the book, never. So yes, if our thinking and/or our subconscious can’t make the connections with just the poem, we can decide to look for hints in the book because that is exactly what he told us to do.

          • I am with you there Aaron and Vox, I feel like it is really easy to get stuck on a path and harder to realize you are on the wrong path. The season may be done but I have a lot of great memories (Buffalo Bill Museum, BB Dam, a hidden waterfall, Mummy Cave, Old Faithful area, Prismatic Springs area, and more). I, like many, walked a lot of miles this summer. Looking forward to resting and maybe looking into new areas for next season.

        • ** ** ** Oz10 – “But I often wonder if Forrest comes out and says, ‘there is a big hint in the -blank- chapter of ttotc’, how long until someone can figure out the right connection?” ** ** **

          Yeah, more precision would probably perversely result in more chaos.

          Imagine if it were revealed – ‘There are exactly 9 helpful hints in TotC, and more than half of them are on odd-numbered page(s).’


          • That’s good… I can see him answering that way.

            Recently, he asked ‘what is one good clue that searchers can think of themselves but haven’t?’

            I counter that with: Forrest, what is the page number of your ttotc book that has that hint that will reveal to much??? Notice how I tried to be super specific with that question, like that ever worked with him… 🙂

        • Oz,

          In the same line of thinking… we also have:

          In your memoir, The Thrill of the Chase, after the poem, you mention there are subtle clues sprinkled throughout that book. You have said you hadn’t deliberately placed these subtle hints in your book; but have you done so in any of your other writings mentioned in Question two (scrapbooks, vignettes, etc)? Or, even if maybe not purposely sprinkled in those writings of Q2, would you consider some of those to contain subtle hints too, like in The Thrill of the Chase?
          A~ I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.

          With an added thought;
          You have written quite a few books on varying subjects; and if you consider and combine the numerous ‘Scrapbooks, Vignettes, Speed Bumps’, etc on Dal’s site, and the stories/answers to questions here on Mysterious Writings, you could say you have even written another book!; maybe call it; ‘Short Snippets from Forrest Fenn’. What do you enjoy most about writing these? I know we all love them lots!
          A~ In those stories I’m just looking back and talking to myself most of the time. It’s fun to be reminded of details I had almost forgotten. Hopefully, readers 500 years from now will find my tales entertaining.

          • Seeker, what is the connection there between those two? What comes to my mind is something that was discussed before: the mental palaces theory.

          • Oz,

            You posted some ATFs about looking for hints to help with the clues, rather than, clues then hints conformations
            We are also told; we should be certain of the location, before the path can be direct [ my paraphrasing ].

            In the case of the hints that help with the clues… I see it as hints helping with the “location” of ‘All’ the clues, rather than individual clues deciphering.
            Which would seem, more about the location itself, may need to be known, and puts us at a place without all the dart tossing while looking for the one and only first clue reference.

            I know Ive beaten this poor horse to death, however, folks have been ‘on site’ with the first two clues mentioned correctly and in order… seemingly going by everything else, with some folks close enough to throw a rock at the chest… well, some good outfielder maybe… YET none seem to realize. what are they missing, along with everyone else?

            Is the important possibility knowing about the location of the clues to understand those clues as we walk right by them??? IT helps with the clues.
            I personally think, we alone must decipher the clues/poem. No answers from the book… but something is missing right at the kickoff. I think it’s that need to adjust our thoughts in a method we can actually understand, which might come from the book itself… stomping is on a ventilator gasping for the flow to be adjusted.

            LOL so, n short I agree with your assessment. The idea of clues deciphering first, then hints for confirmation is a dart toss as well…. imo.

          • Seeker,

            It is my belief that Forrest made the distinction between a hint and a clue for a reason. Everyone knows that definition-wise they can be used interchangeably so logically if he says that a clue will get you closer to the chest and a hint will help you with the clues we should listen to his definition. So when he also says that those hints will reveal to much, I don’t take it as if it will give me a location, but it will reveal the (methodology) used to conceal the clues.

            Once that’s known, we can then decipher the clue into whatever they translate to, a location, a name, a landmark, a geographical formation or whatever. That is why he says ‘it will reveal to much’.

      • Hi Ken, He could point out every hint in the book, and it wouldn’t get me one inch closer. What ever the hints are, I’m certain they are going over my head.

        • James…funny stuff !
          Oz… I like that you pointed at the obverse view of the *hints*. The clues take you to the treasure and the hints can *help* with the clues. Almost like a double-headed snake. Also…*thinking the right thoughts* could be quite different than ^thinking the right way^… in perspective. Some think that *a word that is key* unlocks the universe or that it was coined because of this or that…or someone said something or whatever. I think it best to act like ALL of the words are *key*… otherwise…that may be the deepest hole one ever fell into.

          • The fricking word that is key… Can anybody direct me to the quote where Forrest says: ‘You have to nail down the word that is key or stay home and play canasta.’ What about when he gave us the instructions that I numbered above: 1. Read the book, 2. Memorize the poem, 3. Read the book again (but don’t forget to find the word that is key first in the poem and them find confirmation in the book of said word) then go to Dal’s site and bore everyone to death about it. Darn, I missed that… lol

            Never, never has he said that a word that is key has priority over solving the first clue. NEVER… Of course, the context is plain and simple, some are giving serious thought to the clues IN MY POEM, but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key. Ahhhhhhhhh, he didn’t say that word is in the poem so that means it must be in the Satanic Verses book or some other ‘obscure’ place. But don’t worry, once you know it, you will see a ghost or a spirit of that word in everything he writes, blah, blah, blah…

            ken, quit pushing those buttons…

  23. Just getting into this, looks like a lot of fun! Can any of the vets help me out though, why is it that everyone ‘thinks’ Mr. Fenn is hinting or admitting there is someone out there that ‘knows’? Just Curious.

    • Does he??? Welcome to the chase! Have fun and stay safe! Starting right now means you have about 6-7months to think before putting BOTG… could help avoid over confidence in your first probably wrong solve!
      Give it a go in may and be sure you‘re wrong, but keep your eyes open and you might stumble upon some nice clue related places! Best, T

    • Welcome TDL. I’m a vet but have no idea what you are referring to and why it would be related to vets. If you are talking about his “gut feeling”, we have no confirmation that it means that he thinks someone out there knows anything. Just a hunch. If you ask me, I would think it is to get more people trying to think and search harder. That is just a guess though.

      • Thanks Aaron and good to hear that I’m misguided! Lots of references to the ‘one’ or ‘the hunter’ and why haven’t they acted but certainly not specific to vets. Look forward to digging in more!

        • TDL-

          Pertaining to your question….I was thinking that ….
          1. They might not want to ruin everyone’s fun and the thrill of the chase. (what is there left to do when you fill in the last line of a crossword puzzle?)
          2. They might know just how difficult (bordering on impossible) it is to solve the poem, and realize that it is quite safe where it’s at.
          3. They might have a critically ill family member that has a life threatening illness which has distracted them from the chase (always remember that your family and friends are really the true treasure on this earth)
          4. Maybe they themselves have been injured or handicapped since they have solved the riddle, and are convalescing, biding their time.
          5. Maybe they have other reasons too, or are busy at work. You know, we cant know or second guess the hunter’s motive or inaction for not solving the quest and putting us all out of our misery.

          It is my feeling that one day we will all know the answers.

          That’s my thoughts, but I’m not the judge of anyone. What do I know….I’m only a Sherif

          Best regards to everyone; and you too Mr. f…..

          1F Billy

          • If I had to hazard a guess, Sherif, I’d say you’re pretty close to the mark.

            I would suspect that it’s also frustrating for that person, knowing they could bring this drama to a conclusion. However, sometimes the stars have to align before events can unfold. And maybe they never will.

            In the meantime, I sincerely hope that there will be no more “incidents.”

          • Mr. Billy,
            Based on my experience, I’m guessing your #3 reason is very likely.

            Regarding this statement, “It is my feeling that one day we will all know the answers”, I’m setting my expectations much lower.

            Presuming it’s found relatively soon, if the truths embedded in Forrest’s poem and the story behind the finder’s quest are revealed by the finder or Forrest, I will consider it a gift. Until then, I suspect and accept they will ever be unknown to me – just a way to give myself a little peace of mind.


          • Sherif and Vox,
            Please understand I’m not dishing your comments… but I just have to say something, because ~ I just don’t get it!

            The Sherif ~ ‘we cant know or second guess the hunter’s motive or inaction for not solving the quest and *putting us all out of our misery.*’

            Vox ~’ knowing they could *bring this drama* to a conclusion.

            Others has said; paraphrasing; Need to bring this to an end so Forrest and his family can have their lives back.. or.. Need to end this so we can get on with our lives, etc etc etc.

            I just don’t understand how folks think anymore … If this is all so dramatic, misery/miserable, the need to get our lives back or to save Forrest in some way… what’s the point in putting yourself through it, if you can’t handle it?
            It’s supposed to influence the joy of exploring, being out in nature, doing something other than playing on tech devices and bring back those old family outings… Did ya’ll skip over the “thrill” part to the title of the book?

            I must be getting old… I just don’t get it.
            End of commentary.

          • Sherif Billy…First off, how is the leg coming along? Hope you are back in the saddle soon.
            So many folks email Fenn their ideas on a regular basis that it becomes a random swirl that must be a monumental task for him to digest it all. For the life of me. I do not see why they must… it is not like he is going to confirm anything, definitively. Every year this same topic runs amok with some thinking they are the ONE… while others remain level headed to the reality of it all.

            My main reason for responding to your post, was your # 5…”….putting us all out of our misery.” I got a good chuckle on that. I am sure that there are those that have gone into this Chase cock- sure they were going to get it done in a very short time, only to discover that they are just like everyone else…we all bleed red. Some of the prolific searchers are content to search hard and often, and are having the time of their life discovering things that would never have been were it not for Fenn’s Chase. Others seem madly obsessed and can’t fathom the idea that their whole solve may be just a Fig Newton of the mind and will never get them close to Indulgence. Either way… I believe everyone is responsible for their own actions and hopefully know their limits and are not acting on a *misery mentality*. I love this kind of action and hope everyone else feels just as enthusiastic as me and strive to have fun.

          • I’d venture that a person who solves the poem, understands its meaning, and finds indulgence it is a hot mess about now. Especially without a mentor close by as a guide.

            I picture the person sitting next to the chest and just looking at it for days and weeks – very afraid to touch it and very afraid not to. I’m sure they feel incredibly vulnerable, yet stronger than ever in a weird way. I’m sure they fully perceive all the threats of the situation – which are many. I hope the finder is allowed to experience the joy too as time passes.

            I suppose the finder will need to be their own wise parent, teacher, and mentor while keeping an eye out for invisible, kind, and guiding hands that are surely ever present.

        • Hi TDL, Just because someone was closest to the chest, doesn’t mean they knew it. Can you imagine having your hands on the chest, and just walking away? I can’t.

          • James… that is the part that makes me curiouser and curiouser. Folks landed at the right spot… or close to it… and did not know it. The basics must have been somewhat correct… but the * right thoughts* were way off base.

          • Ken –

            I am going to repeat something here so that you will read it and remember it. You have a bear trap in your head.

            The reason chasers start out at the correct spot and then diverge from the path is that they go down a canyon. They walk away or drive away from the treasure area, every time. Some will agree with this, like Seeker.

            But here is where I take it a step further. The TC is withing 500 feet of the starting point. If you walk further than that, you are walking past it or away from it.

            I work in a 20 story building and it’s about 200 feet tall. Picture that. Pretty large area to search in a 200 foot sphere.

            Gods willing, we will some day know.

          • Lugnutz…I have cartoons in my head ole boy, but that’s beside the point. You may be correct…then again…I can think of several other scenarios that could fit the *problem* where folks depart from the poem. Your 500′ comment is a maybe too…but I do not think so. I believe there is a different *disconnect* that is happening… and the distance is probably not the issue. Maybe for some though. I am confident that the puzzle will be solved Lugnutz.

          • Lugz,

            Here’s a small problem with the idea of 500′ from start to finish idea… Geographical locations of the clues. For this 500′ idea to work, a couple things need to factor in.
            ~Size of the clues..
            ~How many clues are actually physical geographical locations?

            You said; The reason chasers start out at the correct spot and then diverge from the path is that they go down a canyon.
            I agree. The thing is, there should be a ‘canyon’ there? right? Something earlier searchers should have depicted as a canyon, in the normal size and meaning. So a small ‘scale of a canyon’ doesn’t seem to apply [ Like cracks in your hand, line of thinking ]… I think we agree on that premise.

            What I don’t think is, that all the clues are within 500′. [I wasn’t sure if that was what you implied]. I believe that; went by, walked past etc. means the later clues are within or near the canyon, and to find the ‘blaze’ we might need to shuffle our view to see those clues. Or the blaze is the location of the station you need to be at, for all that is seen.

            The size of the clues can be large, huge even, But the location of the blaze [our destination] is small [ our viewing point, not only for the chest, but the remaining clues ]…. but it could be 1000′ away for where we arrive at WWH, or more, or less. Whatever WWH refers to, should have some bearing on where near the canyon one should be… or the premise of ‘nailing down’ WWH.

            I think the idea of; … in tight focus of a word that is key… is saying the same thing as nailed down. A fix point to ‘view’ – the remaining clues. And possibly why [ LOL I’m gonna hear some moaning for this ] Little Indy or anyone else “can not get closer than the first two clues”

            The clues could stretch for miles… I just don’t think we need to. What would be the important possibility? I think fenn is showing/telling us what we would see if standing at the chest… plain and simple. { a kid might get it, Show-N-Tell }. Or as fenn may have implied; you can’t start in the middle of the poem, can’t drive down the road looking for the blaze… If you don’t have WWH nailed down, ya got nothing.

            “Take it in” for a moment… ya might see my perspective.

            In theory anyways.

          • Seeker –

            There does not need to be a canyon. I know this is tough for people but Canyon Down is a clue. It doesn’t not need to be a description.

            When I was growing up there was a scraggly pin oak nearby that everyone called the Old Man. You would say meet me by the old man and we’ll head go to Red Rooster. Red Rooster was what we called the White Hen store because it’s fun to do that. maybe we thought of it because of the Red Ryder gun, not sure now.

            Come to think of it we also referred to a house on our block as the Witch House because it had vines growing on it.

            I shouldn’t even have to say this but Fenn spent his summers on Canyon street and his first gallery was at the end of Canyon street and there were no canyons involved whatsoever.

            Maybe I’m still being unclear. It’s a euphemism not an actual canyon. Is that clear enough?

          • Lug – if ‘canyon down’ is a euphemism, how do you explain the ‘marry the clues to a map’…’places’ comments from FF? Are you saying its not a ‘clue’ per se or just that you think a place could be described by the word ‘canyon’ and its not really a ‘normal’ canyon? Sounds like it goes against FFs ‘plain english’ ATFs as well. Just curious…could you give an example of a euphemistic canyon that also represents a physical location?

          • Lugz,

            Canyon can represent a number of things or a small scale thing. But more to the point… earlier searchers, more than likely, were look for your more conventional canyon [ regardless of size ].

            However, If they did have, for lack of a better term, and ‘alternative’ for canyon… would that be something that folks back then thru now would continue to figure out-?- And still not be able to figure out the rest of the clues? Meaning; if they had the correct mind set for the first two clues… what’s screwing up the rest of the process?

          • Lugnutz… your latest about no *real canyon* is clever, but I do not believe that is true for this Chase. This idea flies in the face of everything Fenn has ever said about solving his poem. This is classic over thinking I believe. I think the *problem* is much more subtle….Thanks for sharing that though. Have you been to the Purple Pig ?

          • Ken –

            I have not been top the Purple Pig. I have walked by and chosen to eat elsewhere. It’s too “hip” for us. Also, you are eating on display as everyone walking by can see you.

            My wife and I ate at Sayat Nova that night. If you are with a significant other I highly recommend Sayat Nova. It’s a classic.


          • Tbug Seeker Ken et al –

            Let me know when you read or hear Fenn say that someone was at the starting point and didn’t go far enough.

            what I read is everyon e close has gone on by.

            walk on by….
            walk on by…
            Anyone remeber that song?

          • C-W – Long ago – “Just walk on by, wait on the corner. I love you but we’re strangers, when we meet…”

          • Lugz ‘Let me know when you read or hear Fenn say that someone was at the starting point and didn’t go far enough.’

            Right… Went by the remaining clues. Figured the first couple clues *and unfortunately walked* past the treasure chest.
            Even the little Indy comment ‘could’ imply that anyone who has the first two clues can’t get closer, because their very near the end.

            But, that doesn’t really say a ‘canyon’ in the conventional sense or description is not a “huge location.”
            The problem I see with any type of canyon… be it of any size or depiction… is the attempt to go in or around. This is where I think they “left the poem”.
            To go any place beyond the first two clues that as any real distance involve [lets just say 1320′ or more for example] everyone one, and I mean everyone, would need a distance known [which would be a clue itself, imo] or a physical clue’s location to GO to…. Three clues would be needed for the “drive-by” theory… because folks had to stop somewhere, for a reason in the poem, to get 500′ or closer to the chest’s hide.

            The chest is not in very close proximity to a human trail…
            500′ [from a road] is close, very close proximity IF clues are miles apart… be it 5, 10 or 50 miles or whatnot.
            If we want to get techy here, the average width a driving lane is 12′ making a two-way road a minimum of 24′ w/o an edge, and many road have a right-away for 25 ‘or 50′ and / or eminent domain comes into play for expansion of any road way [keeping in mind a 100 years plus down the road as well]. Highway systems are 104′ minimum. { ps. this isn’t special knowledge, tens of thousands are employed to build roads in the country every day, and some 300 million drive them..And fenn’s comments about surveying, telephone poles, fence post etc. would certainty be known to fenn }

            Do we really think fenn is going to have his last resting place for his body to rot back into nature 500’ from a road-?- the guy who dislikes staying on trails?

            I agree lugz… heck I was one of the first to bring up the idea, do leave the first clue’s location… small scale location… But that doesn’t mean the canyon is not your commonly thought of canyon. In fact, *i think* it has to be.
            Your destination is small, but its location is huge. [I believe the clues are the destination, because the ‘clues’ are all ‘associated’ /created for the treasure]
            Clues are “contiguous” [adjoined, touching, together in sequence]
            Marry the clues to “a” place on a map. [coupled, together, joined as one].

            Ok Lugz, I’m gonna pick on you for a reason, because I think you’ll see my point… I can’t make anyone explain anything… but i’m tired of lame excuses, the idea that fenn only talks in 85% of the truth, no true analyzing a thought or a process; such as driving clues just because it works for all those failed theories so dang well..

            I am really hoping for some diligence in a though process.. right wrong or indifference… just a smidgen of common sense.

            There’s my reasoning about a canyon.. give me your idea/examples of why a canyon might be something other than a conventional canyon. { I have my own thought, I just want to hear yours, to have an logical conversation.}

          • Seeker –

            I’m not saying you can’t see a canyon, I mean they are everywhere right?

            What I am saying is that Canyon Down is a clue, a stand in if you will, for something else. It a play on words. I have offered, gosh, a lot of ideas fro Canyon Down over the past 2 years.

            Your clue that Fenn may be talking about the DOWN and not he canyon comes from his pillowed down and scented in comment. Down is not a description below. Like the softer aspect of the geography. A down meadow. AS we have discussed he is describing the scene or vista, the warm water, the canyon down etc…

            It’s a poem, or an attempt at poetry if you prefer.

            Do I think that Fenn hid the treasure 500′ from the road? Maybe or maybe 1/2 mile from the road or parking lot and no further. Keep in mind that being 500 feet away describes the height of a 50 story building and the geography isn’t flat.


          • Lugz,

            Perfect. I just wanted to hear a reasoning that could imply a canyon may not be a typical depiction with a reasonable offer for “down” [ as you explain ]
            You hit on two logical assumption, the other, elevation and within a small area… And as you said; Its a poem, and more to the fact fenn chose a poem to present the clues, rather than in book form / story form only.
            I knew you would understand… an attempt without excuses.

      • Aaron ~ ‘ If you ask me, I would think it is to get more people trying to think and search harder.’

        I think so to. I also don’t think fenn was talking about one searcher or a specific group.
        More folks seem to figure out the first clue [over the years], some have the first four [ how many exactly is just a guess, for either ] However, with folks being within 500′ and less [regardless of the full scale of the clue’s area] Folks are close. It would stand to reason, with those factors involved… some or even many may have a good number of clues figured out, just not exactly as fenn blueprinted it. [need to be more “precise” imo]

        Not unlike folks who deciphered the first two [2013 or earlier] or even four clues correctly [in the correct order], but didn’t seem to know it… What could be the main factor that is stumping all?
        LOL 1/2 the poem, 500′ or closer, possibly other later clues mentioned correct? and still, something seems to be missing.

        Personally, I still think some of the problem is about movement. Not so much a wrong turn, but the idea of ‘left the poem’. When I read all the ATF’s about the first two clues and the 500′ – 200′ footers… it seems to me that some of those folks [ while attempting next clue ] simply went by all the clues, and the chest. For folks to do this, wouldn’t it seem the clues are much closer than ‘miles’ apart… or miss reading NF,BTFTW in ‘relationship’ to the first two clues themselves, and not so much the later clues distances.

        BUT, being close is not what I think fenn was implying… I think someone [ or more than one ] may have mentioned that “important possibility” for winning the solve, yet still hasn’t put it all together.
        “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking… I mean, people have figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”
        If you don’t have the first clue “nailed down” you don’t have anything. Just having the deciphered reference, doesn’t seem to cut it.

        Of course, this post is full of it… opinions I mean.

        • Seeker :

          I’m sorry you don’t get it. Instead, I’ll give you a word that will help you understand me. That word is….


          noun: irony
          the expression of one’s meaning by using language that normally signifies the opposite, typically for humorous or emphatic effect.
          ““Don’t go overboard with the gratitude,” he rejoined with heavy irony”
          synonyms: sarcasm, causticity, cynicism, mockery, satire, sardonicism
          “that note of irony in her voice”
          antonyms: sincerity
          a state of affairs or an event that seems deliberately contrary to what one expects and is often amusing as a result.
          plural noun: ironies
          “the irony is that I thought he could help me”
          synonyms: paradox, incongruity, incongruousness
          “the irony of the situation”
          antonyms: logic

        • Seeker –

          He is referring to himself.

          But to a larger point, like Vox’s, everyone wants to think that someone has solved more clues and come closer than 200 feet BECAUSE if this isn’t true, then THEY are wrong, right?

          If Fenn said no one has solved the fifth clue then both JDA and Zap would be wrong in their solve(s).

          I bet I have looked at Madison and Gallatin counties more thoroughly than just about any other chaser. Same with Lander and Cody. i just don’t get it. I don’t see what is so compelling that it drives these guys insane.

          The ghosts in Red Canyon must be wondering what the heck is going on, can’t get a day’s rest….


        • I agree with your assessment that all of the clues are likely in a small geographically area. It really seems like people were misinterpreting NFBTFTW or PIBTHOB and going to far, thus passing by the remaining clues.

      • Haven’t read any further, so sorry if this has already been covered below, but I think TDL means veteran TTOTC searchers, not military veterans Aaron ol’ buddy.

          • Aaron –

            Right, unless someone produces a Fenn quote that says the searchers were within 200 feet but didn’t go far enough.

            What he alwys says it went right passed it, didn’t know, left the poem etc.

    • Welcome to the search – Have Fun, and TRY to STAY SAFE. It will take a bit of time to get your feet on the ground. Do LOTS of reading, and as Forrest once said, read the Blogs for entertainment, and some of us can be quite entertaining. None of us have Indulgence, so take most of what is said with a grain of salt – JMO – JDA

      • Thanks JDA, looking forward to that first breakthrough! Lol In the brief time glancing through Dal’s and a couple other spots I certainly have enjoyed your posts and insights!

        • Thanks TDL. I have fun, and for me, that is the most important thing one can have during the Chase – That and getting the family together for searches. JMO – JDA

      • Dear Mr. Vox:

        Do you know what is at the end of a rainbow? If so…..
        Mazzal or (Mazel tov)

        Thank you for your kind thoughts…


        • Billy, I know that everyone’s rainbow is exclusively their own. But maybe if you stand in Mr. F’s shoes for a spell, he’ll let you share his.

  24. Lug, although you can usually find a Rhodes cheaper these days, they often require a lot of work. In many ways, unless the Rhodes was in tip-top condition, I preferred playing (and transporting) a Wurli. Last one I owned was back in the ’80s. I loved it, but was forever breaking the reeds and having to solder and file replacements. A lot depends on the style of music you’re playing.

    TBH, something like a Korg SV-1 can pretty much stand in for both Rhodes and Wurli, and is a lot less hassle. That or a Nord Electro would probably give you everything you need – except for absolute authenticity.

    Oh, and (back on topic) in case you wanted to read the piano pdf, here it is again:

    • Thanks for the recommendations Voxpops.

      I’ve got many keyboards on the wishlist for the future and your recommendations are appreciated. I too have an affinity for the mighty W.

      I also love the Hammond through Marshall sound and mini moogs.

      I love reading about your adventures and I hope you can return to the States soon.

      • We should start a keyboardists thread!

        Yeah, my ideal rig would include a B3 and a Mini Moog – but those days are long gone for me, unfortunately. I just keep a couple of lightweight boards now.

        As for adventures – my search days are concluded now. Even though I’ve completed the task to my satisfaction, I would not travel again against my wife’s wishes (and she is unlikely to relent). If I’m right, it’s possible to know down to a couple of feet where the chest resides. The blaze lies very close to it, and the location is unexpected. You would need to enter the spot in the right frame of mind, as it is a very special place (not far from Pennsylvania!). A blanket might be something to keep in your backpack.

    • The Nord Stage 3 88 is on top of my wishlist when I find the TC!!! I don‘t think it lacks authenticity! On top it gives you the full package (Synth, Programming, Midi, calssic piano, splitzones, playback, samplingetc) you need in a studio device! I love it!!!
      There are performance-videos on youtube… very impressive!

      • That’s a great board! I still don’t think Nord’s EPs are as good as one or two of the software offerings, but as an all round board there’s little to beat the Stage 3.

    • Hi Vox

      Dal may not care for this convo to continue much longer, fair warning.

      Each of the classic electric piano fills a certain niche of music or decade in Rock history. We are fortunate to be able to choose.


  25. Joe, I’m glad there are at least a few of us beginning to understand the relevance of the subconscious to the poem. If what I’ve discovered over the past few years has any validity at all, utilizing the subconscious is pretty much the only way to crack this particular nut.

    I can remember many a wakeful night, after being out in the mountains, delving deeper and deeper into the “unknown,” searching for a glimmer of light that would indicate how to pick up the trail again. The “I” or eye, the requirement to “listen,” the lack of “solid” clues all point to the notion that logic will take you as far as the diving board, but once you’re in the water, you’d better learn how to swim! After a while you become partially attuned to what is going on, but it’s never easy.

    One of the most difficult aspects is how to bridge the gaps. The clues lead you to what appear to be a number of dead ends. At those moments you have to make intuitive leaps. But when you get them right, and understand what to do next, you’re rewarded with confirmations. And yes, until the time is right for you, you will miss things. That was certainly my experience.

    • vox,
      One of my biggest regrets is not understanding earlier in life how my mind and thoughts function best. I nearly always find enlightenment in some form when accessing the deep subconscious, and I consider it time well spent.

      Regarding the poem’s solution, I agree that using only logic limits progress. I believe it will be some amalgamation of logic, creativity/imagination, and perspective that will lead a searcher to the immediate area that contains Forrest’s special spot.

      You mention gaps, dead-ends, and intuitive leaps, but my problem lies more with the difficulty in moving beyond specific poem interpretations/deductions until proving them wrong with BOTG. My mind seems to glom onto thoughts or concepts that I find difficult to release – a limitation when analyzing F’s highly interpretive poem. For me and others with the same affliction, I believe this is where a decision must be made: allow the ‘evolution of thought’ to bog down until we prove ourselves wrong (yet again), or overcome our conscious minds’ stubbornness and consider the many what-ifs now versus post-failure. Winter weather provides significant incentive for choosing the latter.

      When I was young, my dad always told me to “sleep on it” when faced with a major or difficult decision, and I completely embrace that notion. IMO, it’s shorthand for saying it takes time for the much wiser and far more intuitive subconscious to convince the conscious mind that it may not yet ‘See’ the full picture. Of course, the subconscious mind may not always be so prompt…

      Just rambling.

      • Joe,

        Regarding poem interpretation, my personal experience has been that once I was almost certain about WWWH and HoB, and the direction of travel after that, BOTG became necessary, simply because it appeared that all the clues pointed to a specific spot. What I discovered on that occasion, and on a series of follow-up BOTG trips, was that the trajectory was far longer than expected, and required many clue repetitions. It wasn’t a question of starting again, but of extending the path from each so-called “ending.” It’s not necessarily a question of being wrong, but of being incomplete. Without those BOTG trips (and discoveries along the way) I would not have been able to work my way to the end. The takeaway for me is that FF deliberately made the path tortuous to force us to employ the subconscious and to extend our imaginative faculties.

        So if the trajectory is so long and complex, how do you know that you have actually reached THE end before actually retrieving the chest? Apart from specific correlations between the end point and two other key places, plus numeric consistency, there is also a head-slap moment involved. You realize that the ridiculously long journey you’ve spent five years undertaking, could have been short-circuited and completed in a matter of a few days with the benefit of hindsight. But of course, unless you are some kind of clairvoyant genius, you can’t circumvent the process.

        In the final analysis, it’s a question of using unassailable logic to give you the precision, and the deepest blue-sky thinking to provide the direction.

  26. Forrest mentions windows a few times in his memoir. Enough to stand out to me , at least. We could take it as a limited search window ( seasonal) but I feel like I’m missing something here. Any thoughts on this?

    • Hey-O, Veronica –

      You might consider something like Tségháhoodzání, the “Window Rock”.


      That famous one happens to be on the Navajo Res in Arizona, but there are such formations on the Chase Map (one in Colorado Nat’l Monument, for example).

      And you wouldn’t be able to spot them from a satellite view.


      • Hey Jake and Agrillite:
        I have done a little more searching on the “window” aspect and thought I’d share. There is a natural formation along the continental divide called “The Window.”
        I dont see a whole lot of pine trees around so I may rule it out , but it looks interesting .

        • And it’s a looong strenuous hike apparently. That theory of The Window goes right out the… well .. you know…

          • Pictures of the Window look pretty spectacular. It would make a nice hiking destination sometime, if not for treasure-hunting!

      • Argillite – My daughter and I saw a nice Grizzly very near to this particular Window Rock less than a week ago. We noticed fresh tracks in the snow while driving, looked up the hillside, and there she was. Stunner country.

      • There’s another Window Rock juuuuuust a bit too far west over the AZ-NM border. Not really north of Santa Fe either, but it looks like another nice spot to visit. There is also a monument there dedicated to the Navajo Code Talkers.

        • I have seen pictures of that one, Blex. They look amazing!
          I really need to go check out the Code Talkers monument as well. I also need to pay my respects to Wounded Knee , visit Chaco Canyon just to name a couple and soooo many other places! I would love to travel the world , but there is so much history here in our back yard, that I may never get around to the likes of Europe or Africa. Maybe in my next lifetime.

    • Veronica,I like what he sees out of each window, especially the one in “my war for me”….perhaps this is a list of whats seen at WWWH?
      Imo of course

      • Yeah. He would escape from Spanish class out of the window, and from his bedroom window, etc… like his escape route

    • Writis, I can see how this would be more useful for a solution that involves lines crossing to create an X on a map. I actually performed a search myself under that criteria. Otherwise it would be useful for a solve involving place names, though people would need to draw their own path using their find. If you could create an option that allows for either lines crossing, or a path between points I could see some liking that. Just a thought.

      • One can add their own pts, if that is what you mean? also you can lock to that pt, and see what comes up on other side. Mainly it is for generating new ideas, rather than illustration of a known path. But I may not of understood what you had in mind there.

        • For me, still being very confident in my current solve, i would have a hard time putting my points into an online database. Maybe just my fear but there is always somebody watching, imo. I want to be the first one to trip on the treasure box. Second place bites.

          • Smokybaer –

            Here is my opinion. There is nothing new. No one is ever going to hear or read what you, or anyone, is doing and then go search there. There is no place in the 4 states that you could mention that chasers haven’t been to.

            Someone was within 200 feet of the treasure in 2012. Let that sink in. presumably thousands of people have dismissed that area since that time and chosen to go elsewhere.

            If you share your ideas you might gain some new knowledge of your target area or a way of thinking about the clues.

          • Hi Smoky, the points that the user enters, stay on their own device. nothing is shared, there is built in hard core privacy for the entire app.

      • I think the idea of an X on a map (in spirit, anyway — or otherwise) is
        over-rated. Go back to the poem and the book TTOTC, folks. IMO.

  27. Tbug, you siad: “anyway the reason vox recommended it was reference to omega (the prototype the piano guy built) being ‘an end’…nothing that eye opening to me.”

    Not quite. There are hints in the article that suggest that the writer is as interested in human evolution as in the development of the piano. The analogy between extending the range of the piano and that of human cognizance was clear to me, although the hints are definitely subtle. It’s also interesting to note that the only links I can find to the author lead to a site that discusses fasting.

    • thanks for that, I wasn’t quite sure if you were alluding to ‘more’ but I figured. Since I have your attention, I wanted to ask, has your last (latest?) solve progressed beyond the last one you posted here? (I recall it was the one with the broken dishes, the propane tank, etc. correct?) I was never really able to follow that in a ‘plain english’ way, but your recent ‘enlightenment’ comments are maybe the angle I needed to understand (albeit I’m certainly not enlightened, ha).

      • Lol, yes I was careful not to say too much in that write-up, so I’m not surprised it was a little difficult to follow!

        My path took me way beyond those places, through a series of other discoveries, mental leaps, and “revelations” to a place that I would never have expected. Unfortunately, by this time I was back in the UK, and although I was able to gradually narrow things down to a specific spot via Google, I became sidetracked by what I shall just call “odd experiences.” It was only with the last few Fenn scrapbooks etc. that I was able to navigate the final couple hundred feet to what I consider the chest’s resting place. It is designated by a “formation” that matches the one found at the start point, as well as its “twin” at the furthest reach of the trajectory. There are additional relevant markings in the immediate vicinity.

        No one need accept my word that this is the correct place, as I’m offering no proof. However, I have no need to look further, and the numbers tell me their own story. What I will say is that, much to my surprise (and shock), I discovered during this period that distance is no barrier to the reach of the Chase – even as far as Montgomeryshire. “Thinking” can have dramatic results wherever you are. If you are prepared to dive into the furthest reaches of your mind, and possess the right motivation, things may come to you – things that are frequently physical/tangible and have meaning in the context of the Chase, but that are so “out there” that you begin to doubt your lifelong views of what is “real” and what isn’t. This is why I’ve been talking about thinking/meditation being at the core of what’s required. I would never have guessed until the last few months that this is a “spiritual” quest. One day I will share some of those discoveries, but not until the Chase is concluded (if it ever is).

        Once again, I don’t expect anyone to believe me until they’ve experienced something similar for themselves, but I have to say that my own belief system has been shaken to the core by what has been happening. All I would say is, don’t ignore the aberrations when you find them – be it broken pottery or whatever!

        • “The intellect has little to do on the road to discovery. There comes a leap in consciousness, call it intuition or what you will, and the solution comes to you and you don’t know how or why.” – Albert Einstein

          A quote by one of the greatest thinkers.

          • That is a good one CO. Here is a few more from him which can be considered to be chase related, that I like:

            I have no special talent. I am only passionately curious

            Logic will get you from A to B. Imagination will take you everywhere.

            Imagination is more important than knowledge. Knowledge is limited. Imagination encircles the world. Logic will get you from A to Z; imagination will get you everywhere.

            Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid.

            Creativity is seeing what everyone else has seen, and thinking what no one else has thought.

          • I like this one Aaron, Everybody is a genius. But if you judge a fish by its ability to climb a tree, it will live its whole life believing that it is stupid. Today I looked at my kids pile of school books and paper filled folders and it all came back to me. During my schooling years I hated those books. It would seem nothing my school teachers placed in front of me piqued my interest. I guess i just didn’t have the rite, write, right teachers. I’m much better now. g

          • Covert One

            I believe a brand new person could come into the Chase and quickly solve the clues to find the pork.

            It’s because if intuition.

            We get bogged down with a lot of Chase noise..

          • I definitely did not intend “find the pork”

            I wonder what spell check changed it from or what I intended to type. I honestly don’t know.

          • Lug – I sure any new person to the chase does find the pork! That would the chest is still to be found. Oink, oink…

        • Covert One: exactly how WWWH came to me. In fact, most of my best Chase ideas have occurred while lying in bed in that twilight, lucid-dreaming state.

          • Same here… either in dreams, half-sleep-thinking or by chance while BOTG…

            Still I am trying to think way too much…

          • Funny, most of my best thoughts have come while running. For some reason I think better, and have reached moments of clarity in non-chase related areas while running.

          • Hi Aaron: yeah, I think physical activity helps. Used to get a few good ideas while walking the dog and not even thinking about the Chase.

        • I can’t remember what got me started thinking about Brownian motion today but from there I went to wiki Absolute Zero. That took me to Superfluidity where things flow freely (side trip into neutron stars) where I was very surprised to find a Boojum (who knew!). I recalled Jake K’s cool Jobberwocky post from a few days back and somehow I ended up here:
          ‘What constitutes a useful map?’ tied in with lots of talk about subconscious and conscious thought which seems to be a topic du jour. I think I’m going to have to read a lot more L.C.

          • I just found a reference to a L.C. work titled: An Elementary Treatise On Determinants: With their Application to Simultaneous Linear Equations and Algebraical Geometry.

  28. Aaron, I agree. The ability to adjust multiple times is crucial. But there is a framework, IMO, and that is the numerical side of the puzzle. If you can work out how the numbers are extracted (and it’s really not that difficult), you have the framework from which other aspects hang. However, the words are equally important, and so melding the twin aspects of the poem into a cohesive solution is a colossal task.

    The annoying thing is that after years of struggle, you realize that the answer was kind of staring you in the face all along!

    • Funny you say that. I have been recently working on something numerical. I have found some interesting things with numbers in the poem but am sort of at a wall with it. I may need to move on from it..

      • Don’t give up Aaron! I was able to get started without the numbers, but soon found that they became essential for precision. And I don’t believe the end point can be found without them.

        • Thanks, I would not be surprised if numbers are involved. I just am not totally sold on the numbers I have been looking at, though at the very least they are oddly coincidental.

    • Vox, your way of simplifying what is complex is awesome. Thanks for that.

      Most think “numbers” and say “no way, too complex.”

      I think numbers and see the simplistic beauty of the poem in a managle and digestable pattern. In my solve, numbers bring order to what could be total random chaos if one uses words alone. Like an architect, one element at a time is added until the elements create the home of brown and the final solve.

  29. Fair enough, Oz10. I used the poem probably more exclusively than most, so anything I saw later was more confirmatory than anything else. If you and others can find the right hints first, and then solve the clues from there, more power to you!

    • Sure Vox, if you have the right solution to the clues and you have a correct solve why bother with the hints??? The poem is all we need to be confident and knowingly walk to within several steps of the treasure. Good luck.

  30. JDA, because I respect you and, the major family effort and devotion you’ve put into this chase, I’m going to share with you my realization after numerous botg, from Santa Fe to Montana, including today. Today I’ve finally realized after almost 3 yrs. that the bottom line is if you/we don’t ABSOLUTELY have WWWH nailed down, we should stay home until we have absolutely nailed it down. This is free for nothing and JMO but, why I’m sharing, only God knows. We need to LISTEN to Mr. Fenn.

      • Vox pops. You are doing a marvelous job. I hope you know that. Oblivious to the damage done. But good on you. Too little too late. Ha ha just playing.

        • Can’t help it if there’s a little collateral along the way. 😉 As for too late – the fat lady is still warming up her pipes…

      • Vox,

        Morning musings as I watched the sunrise through the fall leaves on my maple blaze tree. The leaves appear electrified – so brilliant and beautiful. Breathtaking.

        There are two questions I try to ask and answer about the day before each new morning as I wake:

        1. Was I pure to my level of knowing?
        2. Did I do the best the I could have with what I had and knew, or did I take the “less than” way out because it was easier?

        My answers to those questions are often different from day to day. I hope to have them be the same, always, as I age into wisdom (answers of “yes, yes, no” are wisdom to me). That is my goal anyway – a lifelong effort to stear clear of mediocrity.

        Yet I’m positive that I’ve created some collateral damage in my lifetime; hopefully only while answering of “yes, yes, no”. Experience is a swift teacher, imo. I’m not always the sharpest tool in the shed.

        Over the past few weeks of the chase, I’ve realized something so simple and true that anything else seems an absurdity. It is that truth can sound as judgement for those that answer anything other then “yes, yes, no” to the questions above. And the mind blowing truth is, in reality, the only judge is the one who stands in the mirror refelecting back to us. That is the judge that matters imo.

        That is the message in the aria that the beautiful lady will sing when she begins, imo.

        Hope you are doing well!!

        Peace and thanks for inspiring me.

        • Lovely thoughts, Twingem.

          I’m afraid I’m not that pure, but I do try a little harder these days, particularly after learning new things about the world, courtesy of the Chase.

          The autumn has been stunning here so far as well – so much color and open skies. Wales is a beautiful country.

          Thanks for the peaceful thoughts, TG!

      • Don’t you think you’re being a little stricter than necessary in your interpretation/definition of WWWH?
        I think various interpretations could each/all qualify. As always, IMO.

        • If you want to extract the information that’s there, then no. I think it would still be possible without it, but much harder. Also, being “strict” allows you to test out the precision aspect of the poem’s hidden intel.

          Personally, I no longer have any doubts about this, but it seems like most are pursuing different paths.

  31. It’s also probably a really good idea to follow Forrest’s suggestion of studying maps and reading and re-reading the poem.

      • Tulavuru on October 19, 2018 at 11:38 pm said:
        You are evil
        Tulavuru on October 20, 2018 at 5:33 pm said:
        You support cruelty
        Tulavuru on October 20, 2018 at 6:32 pm said:
        Wow. Nice one. Keep the cruelty coming

        In addition to your post above, these are a few post you have stated in the last couple days… You have not added a single thought, idea or any attempt to socialize about the topic of this forum. It begs the question; What’s your beef?

        • he/she is just sharing what they know the most of.
          Tula virus (TULV) is a single-stranded, negative-sense RNA virus species of orthohantavirus first isolated from a European common vole (Microtus arvalis) found in Central Russia. It causes Hantavirus hemorrhagic fever with renal syndrome.[1][2
          They are a negative-sense, renal, RNA virus. Just another virus.

    • I assume Forrest will get to be in the pilot (cameo or more?). I would assume that they have at least contacted Forrest about it?

  32. I’ve decided to consult with the Big Guy about WWWH and HOB. I am headed to see the Trembling Giant…Seek his sage advice…do you know about him??

    Hoping the giant will be a stop on my trip to pick up Ezy. Leaving today for Cortez, NM. She is done and the fall color through the foothills should be spectacular…

    I miss Ezy…I hope she remembers me..

    The trip will take all week…
    I’ll post some pics and a look at a possible hidey spot I have in mind on the way. Check here for updates:

    • OK Dal,

      This location has my interest. I looking forward to how your theory plays out…. mine theory may different from yours, but I do like this location.

  33. Seeker, I don’t think this has anything to do with putting anyone out of their “misery.” In fact, quite the reverse, I think it has a lot to do with joy. But for those of us who have been on multiple searches, witnessed wildlife at close hand (sometimes way too close!), and walked alone in the wilderness, it has certainly been a thrill. Nothing at all to do with not being able to hack it (I believe Sherif Billy and I were having a somewhat different conversation). But I also believe that the biggest thrill is yet to come.

    Referencing your other recent post, it may be worth watching what FF has to say in the coming months. He recently posted a series of vignettes, but has now fallen silent again (hopefully nothing to do with orange T-shirts). Just a thought, but the desert may not be as dry as you’ve suggested.

    Most of the “clues solved” and 500’/200′ comments were made a considerable time ago. Things may have moved on substantially since then, and so perhaps the “binding” now has little to do with the number of clues solved, but more to do with external factors.

    • I forgot to add that a drama is very often a heightened, condensed glimpse into the human condition. This Chase has all of that – and more. Bringing it to a conclusion and retelling it in a way that helps people to understand the totality of it is what we’ve all (or at least most of us) been aiming to do.

  34. One of the recurring problems in the Chase is the issue of how a genuine searcher can come within feet of the TC and have no idea that it’s there. That would certainly be a head-scratcher if the whole Chase was only spread over a short distance, and multiple people had correctly identified WWWH. Sure, you can miss things even within fairly confined locations, but by now, presumably, many more people have scoured the area within reasonable distance of the correct WWWH, and come up empty handed.

    But what if the clues take you over many miles? Then, the person/people who had come within a few feet were probably working on a completely false set of assumptions – wrong WWWH, wrong HoB, etc., and had no inkling they were anywhere near the chest.

    IMO, the flyer prepared a flight plan. The trajectory is long, and you need pinpoint precision to find the hiding place. Unless you crack all of the clues over distance and varied terrain, it would be next to impossible to locate the treasure.

    • Vox;

      I 100% agree. I feel that I have been within 30′ of Indulgence on my last three trips, and yet was not smart enough to realize that I was that close. Only by repeated trips to the same area, have I learned “how” to look at my area. Here it was, right under my nose, and yet I missed it. Will it be where I now think it is? I guess time will tell.

      1,000 people could walk in my search area, and I would bet that not one would look at the EXACT spot it is secreted – JMO – JDA

      • The chest was alert to the vibrations of hiking boots, circa 2016, I’d say someone was within 10 feet and didn’t know they had to solve the last clue on site, that is new info from 2017. It’s gonna be a long winter. Get out your whiskey.

      • I’ve been going back and forth trying to decide whether to post this or not. Anyway, here goes. You’ll soon understand why.

        JDA, I have to agree that there is a distinct possibility that someone was at the right spot and ‘they’ knew it. But it’s a large area, measured in acres and ‘they’ didn’t know ‘precisely’ where to find it. Just that it has to be there, or close by.

        Am I speaking about myself you might ask? Yep, I sure am.

        This place is perfect (the area and especially the blaze) in so many ways and the poem tells you what to look for and where to look.

        Just to name a few.
        1. Not feasible to move. ✅
        2. Doesn’t face N, E, S, W. ✅
        3. One object. “In a word, yes.” ✅
        4. Easily recognizeable as a blaze. ❌❌❌, meaning this is THE blaze IMO.
        5. Though I don’t believe it’s a criterion he’s mentioned, the color and composition of this place is near perfect for the TC to be well camouflaged.
        6. It won’t be stumbled on. ✅

        So why didn’t I find it? Because I didn’t know how deep a hole is and more than likely have do not have the clues in the correct order. When I returned from my last search I went back to the poem immediately, studied real hard, conducted more research, read a book (not one of his) and now I believe I do know. How deep a hole is that is.

        I was unprepared because I hadn’t finished the poem yet in terms of finding all the hints and clues hidden within it. I didn’t leave the poem, I just didn’t Fennish my homework if you will.

        Yesterday I had a lot of FUN with “thinking” and “logic”. Oh where they took me. My brother thinks I’m crazy now, too incredible to believe a simple word would result in a hint describing my exact search area. Not the blaze itself, but its composition, general location, and topography. I must admit I was surprised myself by the journey, but logic, and a little imagination took me there. That’s about all I can say at this time and I know you understand.

        So I’ve made a decision not to post much anymore, though I suspect no one here will care much and that’s ok. My focus for the past few months has been the poem and nothing else, except the 3 weeks it took to help rebuild my brother’s deck. I for sure consult the books, but the poem is the driver for me. And as a result, if I’m going to be successful in the quest I cannot afford the time spent on this kind of “entertainment”, though there have been a few times something I overlooked was mentioned, yielding another lead to investigate.

        I plan to stay in touch (lurk) with Dal’s blog and may comment occasionally, if so inclined. But for now I say thank you Dal for all your hard work. You too Goofy if you’re still around.

        Please take care everyone and remember to study that poem hard, real hard. Answers will begin to emerge and then perhaps you too will have that ‘ah-ha’, why didn’t I think of that moment. And then it will all come together, the quotes, the SBs, the stories in his books; it will all make sense.

        So like you JDA, I’m stuck on my spot and won’t move on. The evidence is simply too compelling and I sincerely wish I could share it with everyone.
        Talk is cheap I know. I have no defense other than what I said above. Let the arrows fly.

        Gotta do more homework now. Studying for the final exam.

        Happy hunting all and have fun.


        • Pinatubocharlie,
          Somewhere is a quote from FF that if you have the correct solve, you can “knowingly go to within” 2 feet? Of the TC. That does not sound like what you are describing IMO.

          • * “Second, I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.”

          • Here is the quote Pinatubocharlie & Seeker,
            June 2, 2017. “Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a correct solve unless you can KNOWINGLY go to within several steps of the treasure chest” f.

          • Flutter,

            I was just adding another quote to your comment.
            If I’m not mistaken there’s at least on other foot/feet comment as well. But we should do all the work for others…

  35. Here’s the thing. If all the clues are within a couple thousand feet or so, that means that the HoB, canyon down, no place for the meek, no paddle creek, and blaze are all crowded into a small geographic area. What would stop you starting with HoB or the canyon, for example? WWWH becomes irrelevant, doesn’t it?

    • I think FF made it clear that we need to find WWWH first. The correct HoB will not likely be found without it.

    • Why would the size of the area lead to that conclusion, vox?

      Flip it around, for example, and the same point applies I think. Maybe even more so.

      Your question re-sized:
      If all the clues are at least ten miles from each other, that means that the HoB, canyon down, no place for the meek, no paddle creek, and blaze are all scattered across a sizable geographic area.

      What would stop you starting with HoB or the canyon, for example? WWWH still becomes irrelevant, doesn’t it?

      Or more visually, consider a city-size search area versus a single building.

      IN the city scenario, say the clues take you from the gas station, to the high school, the theater, the library, the post office, and finally to the bank. You might figure out to go right to the post office and from there to the bank.

      But if the whole search area is just the bank building, you *have* to go through the front door before you can get across the lobby to the safety deposit boxes, and then to the right box.


      • Vox, JAKe et al;

        For me, the poem tells all.”Begin it wwwh,” – A relatively small area.
        “And take it in the canyon down,” – For it to be a canyon, doesn’t that imply SOME distance, not a few hundred feet, but rather a distance of a mile or more?
        “Not far, but too far to walk.” – Doesn’t this imply a considerable distance of a few miles at least?
        “Put in below the home of Brown.” – The place to stop after a LONG canyon walk.
        “From there it’s no place for the meek” – An indication of SOME (Unknowable) distance.
        “The end is EVER drawing nigh.” – To me EVER implies more than one end – This (to me) implies SOME distance – Could be several hundred feet, or a couple of miles.
        “There’ll be no paddle up your creek,” – a creek has to have length, or it is a puddle, pond, or lake isn’t it? – So, SOME length – be it a few hundred feet or a mile or more.
        “Just heavy loads and water high.” – Not much here in the way of discovering distance.
        Not much in the remaining lines regarding distance or length, but we have already covered quite a lot of ground – from my perspective anyway – At least a few miles – JMO – JDA

        • JDA
          With regard to your poem interpretation, there are some close parallels to my favorite but so far BOTG unsuccessful solve, as indicated below in parentheses following your thoughts. I bring this up both to point out connections between your ideas and my own solve, but also to suggest some alternative interpretations for your questions. So you wrote:

          For me, the poem tells all.”Begin it wwwh,” – A relatively small area.

          And I say:

          (Agreed – it must be a relatively small area or there is no possibility of solving the riddle)

          “And take it in the canyon down,” – For it to be a canyon, doesn’t that imply SOME distance, not a few hundred feet, but rather a distance of a mile or more?

          (Agreed – my solve canyon is more than ten miles in length, but doesn’t flow south so this may be a negative for some purists who believe down means south)

          “Not far, but too far to walk.” – Doesn’t this imply a considerable distance of a few miles at least?

          (Yes, my solve is several miles from WWWH and too far to walk)

          “Put in below the home of Brown.” – The place to stop after a LONG canyon walk.

          (Well in my case it would be a drive, not a walk along a paved highway. There is a place named Brown on topographic maps which would be a natural put-in point. It’s close to a parking place for both winter and summer recreation.)

          “From there it’s no place for the meek” – An indication of SOME (Unknowable) distance.

          (I have not thought of this possibility of unknowable distance; in my solve it is a rough road in remote country; no distance implied)

          “The end is EVER drawing nigh.” – To me EVER implies more than one end – This (to me) implies SOME distance – Could be several hundred feet, or a couple of miles.

          (This fits my solve, because there are two alternate access routes, one of which may be closed off)

          “There’ll be no paddle up your creek,” – a creek has to have length, or it is a puddle, pond, or lake isn’t it? – So, SOME length – be it a few hundred feet or a mile or more.

          (Here is another possibility critical to my solve: what if the creek is named Spring Creek? Is there a length tied to a spring?)
          “Just heavy loads and water high.” – Not much here in the way of a distance”.)

          (No distance found in my solve either, but could heavy loads and water high refer again to the word “spring” ? Heavy loads / waters high? Also, and I may be giving away more information than prudent, what if the location is near an historic wagon road used to haul freight in the 1800’s ? Is that not “heavy loads” ?)

          As to the Blaze, no I don’t have any clue either. I can say the area I hiked into last year with my wife was a type of Shangri-La overlooking lush green aspen and stream vegetation in a secluded place with sandstone cliffs. If I were Mr. Fenn I might choose this as my final resting place. It lacks splendid views of snow covered peaks and well known trout streams, but who knows if this is what was in his mind as to a secret place that only he knows about?

          I welcome feedback from you and other bloggers, positive or negative. I’m not trying to promote my own solve as correct, merely looking for constructive comments. So do you want my solve details? Not now. I need at least one more visit to my favorite area next year. Maybe some of you can find it based on my hints.

          • McKendree;

            Sounds good to me. I see no problems with your logic – heavy loads = old wagons – Spring Creek – Not sure that spring has a plus or minus – Creek works

            Blaze – Sorry you have no clue – Keep working it – You could be on a correct path – JMO – JDA

          • Flutterby –

            You remind of a young EC Waters. EC has always had great ideas but then he goes off the rails and sometimes in truly astonishing ways.

            You seem to understand Fenn’s language but not how to apply it.

            When he says canyons in his hands that’s his clue that the canyon in the poem is not physical. The question is what does Canyon mean? How does he describe canyons? What happens to the canyon(s)?

            Where do they go?

        • JDA,
          You said you thought “canyon down” implied at least some distance. I disagree. In TTOTC, FF spoke of “deep canyons” in his hands from the hot water while washing dishes at the cafe. That use of canyons implies essentially no distance. IMO

          • Flutter

            We agree on this for sure.

            We don’t go down a canyon.

            I would add that too far to walk has nothing to do with distance but I don’t know how you feel.

          • Lugnutz,
            I agree that “too far to walk” is not about distance. I have no doubt about that. But of course its my opinion.

      • Let’s take your city scenario.

        WWWH is the front door of the bank building. You now know that the TC is in the building. Ransack the building and you have the treasure.

        The alternative is that WWWH is the gas station. But which one? It’s a big city. Is it the one at Walmart, or one of the 74 that are dotted throughout?

        The next clue is the high school – but which high school? There are 23.

        After that you need the theater. But the correct theater depends on which high school you’ve selected.

        Ditto the library, and the post office.

        Before you can find the bank you may have to make hundreds of correct choices before getting to the right bank.

        So how can you start with the post office? You might not even know to look for a post office. And even if you strike lucky, after that there maybe fifty banks in the city.

        Now what if there’s something at the gas station that will help you when you find the bank? It might also point you in the right general direction. Without the right gas station – and maybe even the right part of the premises, you’re pretty much stuck.

        Now spread that over the Rockies, without much in the way of defined places, and you have a *real* treasure hunt!

        • Above was to Jake. JDA, your post came as I was writing.

          I pretty much agree with your analysis, JDA, although I would be looking at even longer distances for some parts.

          • I agree Vox Actual distances may vary on-site. I was just posting what I thought were the minimum distances that each line implies – JDA

    • Vox,
      I think that unless you know WWH, you cant solve the rest of the poem. But of course that is just my opinion. But, I believe that not only are the clues contiguous on the map, but that you cannot get from one to the next in the poem if you dont understand what each is.

    • Vox –

      If I said one of the clues was Devil’s Tower you can see that from pretty far away. You don’t have to walk right up to it and put your nose on it.

      I don’t really care what you do, but if you come over again just try not going in the canyon away from your water stop.


      • Lug, no need for me to go into that canyon! That was something I realized what seems like a lifetime ago.

  36. Yes, but if, as some people think, these things are only feet apart, then find any one of them, and you’ve pretty much found the TC. I don’t think this is the treasure hunt we’ve been given. (And I don’t think you’d need to share gas money to reverse engineer to WWWH!)

    • Based on what we have been told, I don’t know that we can just find any one of them without learning WWWH. It is more a matter of thinking than finding IMO.

      • Aaron- to get to wwwh you have to start from somewhere and what did ff say that its north of santa fe and the poen says its not far but to far to walk just saying

        • Aaron, I agree that thinking is essential. But we are also dealing with physical geography – in the end we have to translate thinking to finding.

          I also agree that WWWH is essential, vital, crucial! Without it, I firmly believe we will not have a prayer of finding the TC. But finding WWWH is just the start – it’s no simple stroll to the hiding place.

    • Vox –

      F’s admonition about gas money is saying that throwing in for gas money is a waste since none is needed. That’s how I read it.

      • Here is the quote: Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt? ~Ben Raylor
        Thanks for the question Ben.
        If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck.f

        “and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take.” – This tells me that unless you live right at the spot where Indulgence is, you WILL have to travel (Spend some gas money) to get there. Does it imply driving once you get to wwwh – not that I see in this quote though. JDA

        • Well, Maybe – “If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt?” So, he IS talking about the “Canyon trip” between hoB and wwwh – and mentions gas money – maybe he IS hinting at driving between the two – hummm??? JDA

        • JD –

          He is saying the opposite. Do you understand irony or smart assness at all?

          he is saying you are wasting money driving around.

    • I have to ask the question again. Are we sure that we are reading the poem correctly? As far as I know, we only know of 2 out of 9 clues. Everyone talks as if hoB, no meek.., no paddle…, heavy loads…, etc… are all clues. Where did everyone get this info? Not only would it be difficult to solve for something that you have no idea on, but then to find it out in the field and recognize it, lol, come on…
      And, aren’t we suppose to find most of the clues? And then there’s my favorite ATF I’ve posted about f giving the info to solve some of the clues?

      We don’t know what the clues are, we don’t have info to solve some of the clues, we will find some of the clues BotG, forget wwwh until you have the chest, waste of time to look for the blaze before you have wwwh, which is when you have the chest, and hoB which is near the chest but in the 8th line of the poem. (forth line from the start of the clues). Let alone that you need to solve for the clue in that line, and if you have all the clues within the first 15 lines, (because taking the chest wouldn’t be a clue), then you have lines 5-15 to solve for 9 clues. How ridiculous is that?

      I don’t believe once I’ve heard anybody really saying how to solve the poem. How to read the poem and come up with a way to solve the poem. It’s all talk about what the clues are, which we only know 2. And that is because f told us the 2. How does solving the clues put an “X” on a map, when some of the clues must be found with BotG? So then how could you put an “X” on a map without all the clues? It’s almost laughable. Solving the poem and solving the clues are two intirely different things, IMO. So I ask again, are you sure that you are reading the poem correctly? Way too much emphasis on the possible clues, and not enough on finding the niche to solving the poem, IMO. Makes no difference to me, but think about it. Not in a way because it fits your solve, but with common sense. Look at what f has given us, look at what he has really said, how can he not be sure somebody has possibly solved 4 clues? He either knows or doesn’t, he made the clues. The 4th clue must be within 200′, you still have 5 more clues, look at your 4th clue, now fit the next 5 within 200′, and lines 9-15 at the best scenario. That means only 2 lines will not be used within there to figure 200′ and 5 clues. And, each individual line must solve for that clue. Lol, good luck…

      • PI, you are spot on. You must interpret the poem correctly first. You must know what to look for or you will miss it.

      • Charlie;

        “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.” f

        Where in the quote above does Forrest say to solve the poem first Charlie?
        He says he wrote a poem.
        He says the poem contains nine clues.
        He says that you should follow (solve) the clues precisely.
        He says if you do this, you will find the treasure.
        True, we only know nine of the clues, but THAT is the challenge Charlie, to figure out the other seven – in order, and figure out what they mean.
        You say, “Everyone talks as if hoB, no meek.., no paddle…, heavy loads…, etc… are all clues.” YUP – YUP – What else is there? These are the most obvious “Things” in the poem that need a definition and a resolution.
        You keep saying, “we don’t have info to solve some of the clues,” – that to me is incorrect Charlie – we DO have all of the information that we need – IN THE POEM – Marry locations to a map to create a map to the treasure.

        I know I am saying things that you will not accept, but I can not accept what you say Charlie. You want us to solve a mystery novel, without reading the book. You want us to magically hold it in our hands and divine its contents – name the killer, and THEN read the book to see HOW it was done. Sorry Charlie, makes no sense to me. JMO – JDA

      • P.S. You say, “I don’t believe once I’ve heard anybody really saying how to solve the poem. ” How do you solve the poem Charlie? Just the way Forrest said to do it:

        “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f JMO – JDA

        • I wrote you and Seeker rather lengthy rebuttals but they didn’t post. Maybe for the better. I will get back to you guys. Actually working right now.

      • Poison dart,

        Not actually true that we only know two clues. There are many comments that we have had that indicate; for example; The blaze is a clue… fenn stated it. The comment relate to,.. people driving down the road looking for the blaze, “because that’s one of the clue” but would be a miracle if they did…

        The hoB was asked about with an answer, It you knew where hoB is you’d go right to the chest. So apparently hoB IS related to the chest, it must be a clue. Add in that Q&A – The distance to the chest from the blaze would be obvious, if you can find the blaze… well, that puts most or possibly all of the clue between WWH and the blaze .. You can count them any ways ya like.

        This stuff is not new information, it’s been around for a while… kinda surprised at your inquiry

        You also stated; I don’t believe once I’ve heard anybody really saying how to solve the poem. How to read the poem and come up with a way to solve the poem.

        Why would you… no one has solved the poem yet, right?
        But there have been many thoughts on different processes from different angles and readings of the poem … so what are you looking for exactly? I think you need to do a little more research about what HAS been stated and talked about.

        To answer your first question: ~Are we sure that we are reading the poem correctly?… lol that’s a no-brainer… Nope!

      • Poison

        Fenn has mentioned 8 phrases from the poem in atf comments.

        To me, thowe are all clues.

        One example is paraphrased:

        Why can’t I just throw my bike in the water high.

      • P.I.–

        I’m sorry but I don’t think you have allowed your imagination to come out and play for a very long time….

        IMO, one cannot solve the riddle using logic. You appear to be using only logic to locate the chest, and IMO that doesn’t work (Hint: the rules change as you proceed through the nine clues in the poem.)

        Don’t believe me? I’ll bet if he had to choose a beer brand to sponsor the chase….he would pick Sam Adams. Ask him. (Mr. f I’ll dare you to answer…)

        Best regards;


  37. I have a question. I had to get a new computer, it’s running windows 10, my old computer was running windows 7. The version of google earth on the new computer is different than the version on my old computer. Is there a way to get the old version back? Thanks

  38. Poison

    Fenn has mentioned 8 phrases from the poem in atf comments.

    To me, thowe are all clues.

    One example is paraphrased:

    Why can’t I just throw my bike in the water high.

  39. In the TTOTC on page 60, Mr. Fenn said the first afternoon, we found ourselves under a lapis lazuli sky. Lapis, is typicaly a “very dark” shade of blue. It’s more than curious that he used that term. Colorado, is the only chase state, with Lapis.

    • Lapis lazuli is the original ultramarine blue, probably the single most common blue in painters’ palettes (though it’s no longer made from lapis).

      Also not uncommon as a poetical phrase for blue sky, as in Wallace Steven’s lines about the “bronze man” (at he end of his ‘The Solitude of Cataracts’):

      . . . .
      He wanted his heart to stop beating and his mind to rest

      In a permanent realization, without any wild ducks
      Or mountains that were not mountains, just to know how it would be,

      Just to know how it would feel, released from destruction,
      To be a bronze man breathing under archaic lapis,

      Without the oscillations of planetary pass-pass,
      Breathing his bronzen breath at the azury center of time.


      • One thing Jake is Blue Lapis Lazuli has metal specks mixed within that reminds me of the dark blue sky mixed with stars. Maybe F was referring to this and Montana is also know as big sky country.

        Just Say’n

    • North of Hebgen, south of Big Sky straddling the border between Madison and Gallatin counties.

      Or he’s on vacation. I know he is heading to the Aloha State for a vacation.

  40. I hate when people reference something that is easily discussed here, inferring that you need to go look it up yourself…just tell us!

    Lapis Lazuli: Associated with the third eye chakra, the Lapis Lazuli meaning can be traced back to ancient Egypt where royalty believed in its power to stimulate openness to the spirit world and infinite possibilities of the imagination. By meditating with the crystal it can expand your mind to a world where anything is possible, including conversing with ancestors from past lives. If you are drawn to the cool and soothing colors of this vibrant stone, it could be a sign that you need help getting out of a spiritual funk. Treasured by the ancient Egyptians for its powerful ability to bring about insight and spiritual transformation, the Lapis Lazuli crystal healing properties also have practical applications. A natural alternative to aspirin, this stone is an excellent remedy for migraines and headaches, especially since it stimulates the third eye chakra. The Lapis Lazuli crystal allows you to keep your feet on the ground and your head in the clouds.

    This was all from a ‘crystal healing’ website, I certainly do not prescribe to these ideas, I just pulled a few points I thought could pertain to the chase. Also, this is rabbit hole, IMO.

  41. Lugnutz,
    There is no link to reply to your message where you said I remind you of EC Waters. So this will be completely out of order. But, what makes you think I dont know how to apply the clues to the map, just because I did not disclose that info?
    I also did not disclose the meaning of canyons. I only stated that it didnt mean a great distance. Im not sure Ive heard anyone mention a solve that doesnt involve walking, driving, or otherwise traveling through a canyon for a distance. I dont think that is how the clue reads. And again I will point out that IMO “not far but too far to walk” is a reference to a place in time. All IMO

    • Flutterby –

      My recollection is that you compared the story to a story geographical phenomenon over eons.

      Wasn’t that you?

      • Sorry Lugnutz, But I have no idea what you are asking. Do you want to rephrase your question?

    • Flutterby,

      I beg to differ with your comment, “And again I will point out that IMO “not far but too far to walk” is a reference to a place in time.”,, “not far but too far to walk” is just what it says which is a distance that is “too far to walk”. One will have to use another method of transportation to get to “below the hoB”. I’ve also seen posted that I also disagree with that it relates to viewing the long distance, the poem is a map, one cannot see a view on a map, it has to be physically “too far to walk”.

      Paraphrasing F, the poem is straight forward. To me most are not heeding what F said and are not heeding F when he says to “simplify”.

      Just Say’n

      • CharlieM ~ ‘one cannot see a view on a map’

        Really… You can’t see mountains, river, woodland, lakes, plains, canyons, valleys, glaciers… or on GE? if ya don’t like view, how about “observation” does that help? Ya know, what we’re told we should do.

        Anyways, ya also said; “not far but too far to walk” is just what it says which is a distance that is “too far to walk”. One will **have to use** another method of transportation to get to “below the hoB”.

        Ok -lets go with that… fenn said he followed the clues… some like to say fenn only meant some or a few of the clues. If true, why after almost 8 years of that questioned being ask [ Did he follow the clues when he hid the chest?] he would just come out and say he did, and not mean all “his” clues? What would be the point to that comment?

        The other thing is; After 15 years of on and off work, changing the poem, crafting it, designing it… why would he create a clue’s location that was so far from the hide it would *require alternative transport,* and right at the first clue, to the to the others? Does it make sense to have a clue so far off.. many things could affect the outcome of the route from beginning to end-and not so much just- land movement? Yet folks have been at the first couple of clues and walked past the chest… LOL for the life of me I can’t see how they could without knowing or mentioning the correct clue or method that got them there! A third clue is needed to correct stop at the point the need to be at. Be it hoB or an exact distance.. something is needed to accomplish that move.

        Heck, some have 10, 20, 50 miles between clues… what will change by man’s hands alone is 100 or a 1000 plus years [ at one time stated 10,000 yrs ] in an area with that mileage involved?
        Maybe all that is being said is; begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down… not far, to say hoB is on the opposite side [ lets say ] 1500′ foot wide canyon, too far to walk, as going to an “alternative foot route” to cross the canyon down a path a 500′ away? Picture the upper falls at YS for that example. Your using “too far to walk” as a huge distance forcing alternative transport, when it all could be about as the crow flies or straight measurement to hoB a very short distance as that crow flies… only requiring “extra steps” or ‘planning’ beforehand, to be on the opposite side of where WWH and not far away, but still needing to be at WWH and not someplace else on the canyon.

        You also dismiss fenn’s comment [ when asked who else knows? ] saying an 80 yr old is not going down and up a canyon [revering to his two trips he made?}… yet you seemingly and simple align ‘canyon down’ as driving into one because you can’t believe the phrase ‘take it in’ means to look. [ I refer you to SB 124 for an example of how something is worded can mean something different and still be truthful– taking a picture with a fish ].

        language is an illusion… and still straightforwards. But might need a little kick from imagination at times. But on a positive note; good for you to stick to your guns.. KiSS should write a song for it. Maybe a remake of WillIe’s .. On the Road Again.

      • CharlieM,

        You said, “the poem is a map, one cannot see a view on a map, it has to be physically “too far to walk”

        I did not say that the place in time is not on the map. I also did not say that the “too far to walk” is a view. It is not a view IMO. You are right that the poem is a map. And, in my opinion, “too far to walk” can be found on a map, but it is a very short distance and requires no walking. Good luck with that!

        Happy Searching!

  42. Waste treatment plants, outhouses, commodes.
    Too many toilet bowl solves here.
    Gives a whole new meaning to:
    “So why is it that I must go”
    Get real folks!

  43. If the chest was a fugitive from justice, could law enforcement find it, given on all the information that has come out over the years? I think there’s a better than average chance, based on psychology.

    • James Perotti,

      Law enforcement was a big part of my life, and I have been approaching the poem along with certain information as if it was a crime to solve. I would say that this approach has been helpful, although the tc still evades me. I was very good at what I did, no real leg up.

      • Hi CharlieM, I don’t have much education or a big vocabulary, so some times it’s hard for me to put my thoughts into words. But I’m thinking about the subconscious, and how it sometimes influences what we do, without our being aware of it. Mr. Fenn said that the chest, and it’s design, were in no way related to the hiding place. I’m not so sure that’s the case. People that spend time observing other people, can see how people tend to collect things around themselves, that seem to fit that persons personality like a glove. A vast array of information, that the person being observed, isn’t aware of. Just a thought.

  44. I went back to the dictionary again. I’ve been stuck on NF,BTFTW for a while. I keep wanting to read “Not far” as “near.” I relooked up the word “nigh” again and saw that one of the definitions was “not far.”

    Does anyone else feel like they are running in circles?

    • Emma;

      I posted this a couple of weeks ago. I doubt that this is the meaning, but you mentioned going back to the dictionary. Did you notice that two definitions of “far” are deadly and dangerous? Therefore – “Not far, but too far to walk” can read “Not deadly, but too dangerous to walk.” Forrest says that Indulgence is not in a dangerous place, I expand this to mean that no place one has to travel to find Indulgence is dangerous, and certainly not deadly BUT – what if the poem is about a time long long ago – eons ago. Could Forrest be describing a place that was ONCE upon a time (while) “Not deadly, but too dangerous to walk.”?

      Just something to chew on – JDA

      • Nice JDA. I like your ‘not deadly, but too dangerous’ … unprepared and exposed in any wilderness can be ‘too dangerous’

    • Emma –

      A strange thing happened in the chase years ago. One person decided that Nigh meant left and then everyone just repeated that daily. By the time I started commenting on this board in 2016 everyone here said it meant left. They had decided really early that nigh meant left as opposed to near. In literature draw nigh always means come close. Lots of examples to read. There is constant talk of going left or something being to the left when people write up a solve.

      It’s really quite remarkable.

      • I definitely noticed that and finding nigh as left (in a definition) is something I haven’t actually done. Which I find funny as I don’t think I have had a solve where I didn’t use it that way. This might be one of the best cases for crowdsourcing but I think in the end you have to use it both as left and near. IMO of course as all my BOTG have come up with an almost empty backpack.

          • Some of the synonyms there:

            warm- of a seeker; near to the object sought
            hot- of a seeker; very near to the object sought

            Seeker, are you getting nigh? lol…

        • This is a good example of how other words in the poem relate. I doubt, if everyone is honest, a lot of people knew what nigh meant/means when they read it. Heck there’s no consensus for what brave means or in the wood… or any other parts of the poem.
          Folks call fenn a wordsmith and teacher.. so lets go with that for a sec. Warm means close, End can mean close, Scant means small, or short so it could refer to as close, Not Far means close, Drawing could be an idea of pulling toward/close etc etc.

          If we look at words with that thought in mind, does it change how the poem could be read-?- or understood as clues being “contiguous” “consecutive”?… In an order of touching or joined? and why each word being deliberately chosen is important to analyze… why those words vs. something like the end is ever drawing near.
          [ yep I get the rhyming part, I’m just wondering why the project took 15 years of ‘getting it just right’ if rhyming was the major factor, or was the usage of the words more important to connect to other words used throughout the poem]

      • That is as remarkable as the number of searchers, who after a failed botg, say that on the way home they had the Ah-Ha moment and should have gone right instead of left. Winter is coming…

        • If you go left enough times you can finally go right.

          Reminds me of Game of Thrones. At least winter won’t take years to arrive or years to end.

          • Idle, just like in Game of Thrones winter is scary here at the home of Dal too. White Walkers roam around screeching of perfect solves. :-0

        • We have all winter to wait for more Game of Thrones, and more treasure hunting. Game of Thrones has actually slowed down my treasure finding web site. To add to our giant, made from a basketball goal, the iron throne, game of thrones cemetery, we also created a large ice dragon.

          All done now and more time to work on finding this chest.

        • Oz10

          JDA sounding like he was as going to quit but had an AHA moment before he finished the thought.

      • It is *remarkable* that Fenn has admitted to totally corrupting his use of words when writing things sometimes. Perhaps it is not too big of a stretch to keep in mind that nigh can mean …. close/r in time and space/distance, as an adverb or adjective… and also can mean to the left side as an adjective. Nigh is an *old* word and is used mostly in a poetic setting. It could be less vague as a *directive* to imply…getting close/r, near/er on the left. I don’t know anything….but I like to keep the options open.

        • Talking about word corruption, when he said some searchers were close but -LEFT- the poem, maybe he was hinting at that exactly. They went LEFT and away from the clues/chest location. Forrest the Kingfish wins again…

          • OZ10,

            Here is something interesting too.
            Far means “right,” in the same sense that “nigh” means left. So, “Not Far” could again = nigh = Left. In his quotes about 2 clue solvers, he usually says “walked right past” / “went right by” the rest of the clues/indulgence.
            So if NFBTFTW happened to be clue 3, it could tell you to go left, but instead people went “right” by.

            But like you say, people “left” the poem. So once again, everything is circles and I’m dizzy.

          • A Q&A about WWH and mountains N.of SF produced this answer.
            ~Your question reminds me of another: You leave home and walk a straight line for a mile, turn 90 degrees left and walk a curved line for a mile and shoot a bear. Then you turn 90 degrees left again and walk a straight line back to your home. What color is the bear?f

            Nigh could easily replace “left” or if “far”[right] was used it would be a different direction with the same outcome. But more is still needed, right? umm Correct?
            It all seems to relate to the first clue and what connection it might have with all the other clues. I personally don’t think there is a stand-a-lone style clue. And is right, I mean Correct, deliberate words used in the poem can still be straightforward, in plain english, with more than one thought/usage involved.

          • Emma, and we are left right back where we started. I’m dizzy too. right, left, right, left, HALT!

          • Nigh & Far ??? …. perhaps call-outs like Yee & Haw, used to direct the mules pulling the plow? Wonder what language or culture they are from?

          • Oh, so it’s horseback-riding lingo. That might be something to consider. I think Seeker’s idea about standalone clues is interesting, too. When Forrest says it’s risky to disregard words in the poem, it does make you wonder, how many lines make up one clue?

        • Hey Ken

          Here’s the thing. There should be some reason that Night would m an Left and I’ve never read one.

          Just someone looked it up and decided to use the obscure meaning.

          If anyone has an example from literature I’d love to see it.

        • Hi Emma

          When most people come to a fork in the road they see only 2 choices.

          There is the third choice.

          I would use the split the difference quote but I can’t remember it. You get the picture.

          • There are more choices than one might even imagine.
            Thanks for the hint, y’all. As always, in my opinion.

  45. Question: I remember reading here somewhere that FF had a friend named Tex. I can’t find it, tarry scant doesn’t have it and I can’t remember the exact story. I’m beginning to wonder if I dreamed it and turned it retrospectively into a memory. Anyone else recall such a thing?

  46. Last name: Nigh. This interesting and unusual surname is a medieval English topographical name arising from a misdivision of the Middle English “atten (e)ye”, which means both at the river, and at the island, from the Olde English pre 7th century “ea” meaning river and “eg” meaning island.

    Hey, you never know….

    • Or in a description of a landscape, a waterway, into a lake, onto a piece of land surrounded by the same body of waters… NF,BTFTW.
      How could that work for canyon down? A glacier made [carved, depression] lake of a mountain with it’s peak peeking out. Ha! The chest wouldn’t be under water…right?

      Hey, could be…

      • Maybe not under water but nigh water or in water.
        Either way your effort will be worth the cold uncomfortable feeling you get when you know it’s too far to walk.

  47. The chapter in TTOTC, “Gypsy Magic” always sticks out in my mind. Has anyone else had the thought that the Gypsies he talks about might be trout ? Trout migrate like gypsies. He has to sneak out his “window” ( window of time to fish. ) to watch them dance and sway. No one says a word. But he can sometimes hear their music in his dreams. Just a thought.

    • @veronica . I’ve thought about ‘what if’ the entire poem were the journey of a spawning fish, a lot of the lines would make sense to me with the journey of a steal head salmon, IMO.

      • Absolutely, Cholly!
        I thought it could be a fishing map that had a dual meaning, like where his love of the Rockies, fishing and family all melded into one

        • @Veronica how to get ‘take it in the canyon down’ to fit into the notion of spawning fish…they .would normally be going upstream…lol! We just keep thinking!

          PS way off topic…I’m over in Thailand where my main email has been hacked! I have a 17 hour lay-over in Beijing on my return to SFO and was doing some google searching about leaving the airport and touring the Great Wall etc… Next thing I learn is my escrow company is being instructed to wire my upcoming commission check to China! Great! Bound to happen all the years of coming here! I’ll survive! Anyhow, fellow searchers who know me via email, disregard anything about my being beat up in Beijing, I’m fine!

    • ID- I have always thought that Cody ties in somewhere. It is no coincidence that the buffalo is named Cody . I don’t think Forrest put anything in ttotc or the poem by coincidence. Everything is deliberate and it’s up to us to find out why.

      • I definitely agree that isn’t a coincidence, and the drive between Cody to Yellowstone is very scenic (multiple videos of that drive on Youtube even). Plus when I was younger I still remember arriving after a long road trip (not so much the road trips except for a few places like Wall Drug). I can definitely imagine Forrest being excited when they finally got to Yellowstone.

        • ID- you could also look at the town of Guernsey in WY,also the breed of cow that Bessie was, as a hint. If the Fenns drove straight up through Fort Collins it is along that route to Cody.

          • I wouldn’t say Guernsey is ‘straight up’, it is a bout 12 miles east of I25 (not saying the old state hwys may have gone thru Guernsey, they may have, I need to go check). Just to give you some more rabbit holes…you know what historical landmarks are there in Guernsey right? 2 physical attractions that someone interested in history and time for a few side trips might go and see. Then look up Hell Gap, also nearby (NPFTM?). Veronica, I have a nice ‘fishing’ themed solve, only used a map and my knowlege of the geography…my latest is more about archaeology, what I believe FF cared even more about. I re-read TTOTC the other night and he mentions his love for history and knowing those things. Yes he enjoyed fishing, but to me it was more about a relaxing activity that took his mind OFF his troubles…where I think (IMO) he views archaeology much differently, while it is a joyful passion of his, I believe there is an underlying importance to him, the legacy of history is only found by those willing to go look for it…his comment about us all being an * in a book never written…that is to me, until someone uncovers that history, some time in the future. I read TTOTC and its main theme as we all have potential to influence the world, no matter how small a breeze from that flutterby’s wings, if we’re willing to get out there and try. Anyway, back to Canasta, enjoy!

          • Tbug- that’s a really good point! I haven’t delved into the archeological aspect. Something I will have to remedy soon. One thing I have plenty of until next search season is time. Thank you for your perspective on this!

      • Thanks Bob,
        It was there this morning but you’re right, it was removed. I’m sure it will be back under a different URL.
        Either way I have a copy and can let you see and hear Forrest say:
        “We always came through Cody on the way to Yellowstone”
        Talking about when his father (Marvin Fenn) drove his family every summer to Yellowstone or West Yellowstone.

        Funny, At the end of the video Forrest says he drove 891 miles yesterday to get to Cody for the interview.
        So those that say he couldn’t drive that far from SF NM at that age better think again.

        Video date 2006, Forrest was 76 Years old.
        I just wanted to post it because JDA thinks Forrest frequented his area even though I know his area and never heard, saw or read anything about Forrest being in his area.

        Looks like Toby is starting to put the videos back up.

        • It was up and running this morning… hmm interesting it was removed at all. I only watch for a few minutes and was planning on watching later. I also was wondering why it was dated 2006, yet only one comment dated 2018.

          • The video was taken in 2006.
            The interviewer in the very beginning of the video (which is hard to hear) states October 17th 2006.
            I’m not sure who owns the copyright of this video, probably Buf Bill Museum. I know I saw it before but can’t remember.
            Maybe Dal has it somewhere here on this site. We should check.

          • That video was not taken by Toby and cannot be published by him. He can only publish and copyright videos he has taken. That’s probably why the video was taken down.

            Toby can post all the videos he has recorded and has most of the rights to them. The fly in the ointment comes to the content which most is about Forrest and the Chase. There is a rift in the vortex.

            Toby stated recently in a video that the videos on his channel can be downloaded until 2019. This includes Moby, Collected Works, etc… and all the other Forrest videos he took with or without Forrest’s permission will disappear soon.

            Remember when Toby made the videos private and you had to pay to see them?

            Then weeks later they were public.
            There is a battle going on and I hope the public wins.

            Just some thoughts from a public POV.

            I hope Forrest keeps stepping in and keeps all those videos public for thousands of years down the road.


        • Jake –

          I’m glad you noted the drive through Cody. If you zoom out and look at the map the route becomes obvious 25 from Denver to Casper to Big Horn Until they turned for Cody and Yellowstone the Fenns were east of the rockies the whole way.

          Could they have sometimes cut across to Soshone? Sure, his dad always drove out of his way to see some school house right?

          But I have never read anything that mentions the Tetons or Flaming Gorge or anything SWW.

          • Yes Lug,
            That would be logical route 25 and I’m sure that’s what they took every summer.

            Maybe Forrest has taken the Teton route to West Yellowstone but if I was him and had a position at the museum in Cody, that’s the route I would take considering no connection with the Teton route.

            When Forrest (alone) was leaving West Yellowstone, I’m sure he wanted the quickest ride home without paying for another trip through the park would take him through Idaho and Utah to NM.

            I just don’t see the connection to the South parts of Shoshone at all.

          • For Fenn Family Road Trip followers, here’s a (zoomable) 1937 Texaco road map covering from Colorado Springs in the south all the way to the Canadian Border in the north.


            No I-25 at the time, of course. Looks like 87 to Casper, and then 20 to Shoshoni, and from there on up through Thermopolis to Cody would be the ‘best-roads’ way to go.

            (The roads west through the Big Horns from Sheridan or Buffalo to Cody look a little sketchier.)


          • YES! thanks Jake. I actually wrote my first solve https://dalneitzel.com/2017/07/06/wind-river-canyon/
            using that theory. Not saying the solve was good, but after the 2006 BBCM video posted a couple weeks back it confirmed my thoughts. But also, look up the history of Thermopolis…it was marketed (i.e. big signs as you came into town) as the ‘Gateway to Yellowstone’. Going left at Tmop over to Meteetsee is much faster than going up through Greybull. Also Jake didn’t mention, but hwy 287 over Togwotee pass to moran junction was not paved until the early-mid 1940s…so again, for the bulk of the trips, the Fenn family would have probably gone through Cody. The video seals it for me. Now consider in those 1600 miles, 5 days, gas/tire rationing how and where they would have stopped along the way. WY has/had more options IMO than CO, considering the destination was West Yellowstone. I don’t picture them taking side trips west through Colorado (old hwy 40) to go up through Utah/Idaho, mostly due to roads and time. I do think Marvin (besides his 50 mile one room schoolhouse trip) would have loved driving through WY and stopping to fish at some of the awesome places along the way (wind river/big horn, Greybull, N platte, etc.) also, several notable native American sites to pass the time for avid arrowhead hunters. Then don’t get me started on the archaeology links to WY…the Fenn cache, George Frison, red ochre/sunshine mine, Lindenmeier site (this last one is my gift to my fellow winter rabbit holers). OK back to canasta.

          • Thank you for sharing the map link, J A Kraven. It makes me wonder which route my husband’s family traveled when they camped in Yellowstone.

  48. Each clue leads to the next clue, and so on. Mr. Fenn said to “marry the clues, to (a place) on the map”. Which makes it sound like all of the clues, are in the same area? IMO

  49. Hi JDA, The poem tells us, the distance from WWWH to HOB, is to far to walk. On Tarry Scant, in the clue section, #3811, Mr. Fenn says that searchers have gotten the first two clues correct, and “walked” past the other seven. I think this would suggest that the no paddle creek is at the HOB, even though the next stanza, starts off “from there”. Because there are no directions indicated, right, left, up, down, forward, backward, ect.

  50. I noticed in this video he took three candy bars for three months when he cut trees one year. He also mentioned Lewis and Clark. In the book those two references came to be when he was riding with his friend and got lost.

  51. Would somebody be so kind to show me where or tell me the comment Forrest made about flipping a log over and watching the bugs scurry.

    Thank you.

  52. If nigh means “left” or “near”….. then what does it mean when substituting for nigh in the sentence…..

    The end is ever drawing left….???
    The end is ever drawing near…???

    If those are the only definitions of nigh, then please explain why he put “ever” in that line? Just curious..

    Best regards;

    1f Billy

    • What usage of the word “ever” are you interpreting?

      Basically ever means always. Or permanently, indelibly, eternally…
      Many words are synonyms to each other, which helps in writing a poem or hinders, depending.
      Not unlike the word ‘wood’ many would like to think of standing live woodland. But the word defines petrified wood. We also have the word ‘meek’ in the poem, the word brave etc. which could relate to ‘petrified’ Yet not in the common idea of being scared or shy… but a geographical area… A petrified wood area.
      Now what would “ever” refer to when considering the end of anything? Does eternally work better, or permanently, to mean something slightly different than ‘always’? example petrified wood is permanently preserved as stone, line of thinking.

      Now those line could be interpreted as – a petrified [meek] wood area that use to be tall standing trees – HLnWH. Which describes a standing tree rather well, poetically. But is not anymore.. its “end”
      [existence], is now “ever” permanently, eternally in stone.

      Gee, I would think what was simple enough to figure out… lol

      • Hi Seeker;

        For me, “ever” means more than once. The end – which can mean border or boundary – will happen more than once- JMO – JDA

      • For Seeker’s theory of a *take it in* viewing of the clues…as in an architectural *drawing*… there is normally a point of *perspective*. Usually there are one, two or three point perspectives. Single point is pretty basic…whereas the two point shows the horizontals leading off to *vanishing* points, or *ends*. The three point perspective adds in the angular viewing with a vertical vanishing point as well. In this last maybe that would work in with Seeker’s Tarry Point idea. Vanishing point…ever ending.

          • Life for Eric was a *rule of thumb* anyway. Interesting this comment about his artist friend. SB about his painted palette collection…with the thumb holes. From an artist perspective, another *rule of thumb* meaning is the *rule of thirds*. Again… the *nine*.

        • Ken,

          My point was of, a perspective to, how words in the poem could derive a thought process… bring a line of thinking in-play to read the poem from a certain perspective. “Learn” what WWH is and what the other clues pertain to.
          The above idea was about a geographical location having petrified wood involved with words fenn could have chosen for a reason. Grant ya the idea involves meanings and usages and synonyms, even antonym, But it’s a process of seeing how “every word was deliberate” on a project that took some 15 years to design.

          Example: a place not meant for the meek would require being brave to be in… Is a simplistic thought.
          Meek and Brave used as they are in the poem are/could be antonyms, have the same outcome for the idea of being at a “petrified forest” not that someone would need to be scared of or having bravery to go there, poetically.

          WWH and HLnW used in the same type of thinking could describe live standing trees or dead fossilized trees. depending on the perspective of how the poem is read ‘in this manner’

          The idea also could relate to the end of anything is “ever” coming. Not unlike fenn would have felt when stricken with cancer… a motivator if you will, to write a poem about something Old and New and the riches [ [knowledge] of that which is found. Thinking along the lines of geographical and yes, geological times… the big picture… down the road. Not unlike fenn’s bio which will tell the story of his life, what it was like, in a single span of a persons life time.

          What might be a hint? How about ‘forest fire’-ff burning of the map. A map that has a petrified wood forest. LOL subtle? maybe, but maybe its to have the right thoughts to think, a location??? We’re told “all the information to find the chest is in the poem” yet as you can see by others, some dismiss words, some only make it simple from the start or first thought, some are stuck on their one and only solve and can’t see an alternative way etc. etc.
          I’m examining the poem as to why fenn chose words, and placed them where he did within the poem.

          Example, the poem could have been;
          As I’ve gone alone. Why is it I have vs. later I’ve?
          Begin where warm waters halt. Why is “it” presented and why is waters plural here and not later.
          If you are/were wise and in the wood. Why was brave used? does brave mean as scary or dangerous situation or can it be something related to another or other words in the poem that hint at something else altogether.

          Can the usage of ‘tarry scant’ be a hint to the idea; that you Gaze upon all the clues from a small point within the clues… Poetically saying, Great! ya found the blaze ya found the chest, Take a moment and smile at your effort of how it all unfolded… how the idea of “what took me so long” brings on that grin… and yet, still be helpful as to how the poem is read as well? From a scant point we need to linger at to see it all?

          Take the line; “your effort will be worth the “cold”.. many hope it only involves temperature and we need to freeze our buts off in a cold mountain river… a simplistic thought with no reasoning behind it.
          One meaning /usage of cold means “dead” Or in-lines with the idea of a fossilized tree.,, everything come to and end, but many things leave Riches [ knowledge ] in it place.

          LOL Does this answer everything we may need to know about the clues? Nope… it’s an idea of how the words in a poem can be interpreted for a ‘line of thinking’ – a perspective of the poem itself.

          I don’t adhere to the KiSS method.. It’s too simplistic to start with, no thinking no analyzing, just guessing.
          I won’t dismiss a single word in the poem until I can “rule it out”.. ‘Ever’y word and its multiple meanings and usages. And I’ll use the ATF’s as a check and balance, attempt to make them true to each other, because the guy who created the poem is talking about it all. Otherwise idiots would still be digging up outhouses, snorkeling, looking in Nevada in a big canyon etc.

          Don’t get me wrong. I don’t think fenn is handing out clues/hints like candy on Halloween, but his comments and Q&A’s etc. have to have truth within them, even if they seem to contradict at times.

          At least that’s my perspective…

          • Opps I forgot..
            Ken, what you said in your post works for me too. lol
            I just wanted the idea of my post to have meaning to the words in the poem for a ‘perspective idea’ thinking the right thoughts…and how we may accomplish that through ‘analyzing’ the poem.

        • Ken, I’ve often thought the ever-nigh reference meant a horizon line….. like being high on the last mountain looking out at the plains, but then I get stymied thinking if our spiritual, symbolic, poetic Fenn would rather die looking at the sunrise or the sunset.

          • Hi OS2: at least as a child, Forrest seemed not to be much of a morning person — unless fishing was involved. Who can blame him, when most of the year morning=school or chores? If that carried over into adulthood (which it seems to have, based on some very late-night blog posts he’s occasionally made here), I’d guess he’s more a sunset guy than a sunrise guy. That, or he only needs 4 hours’ sleep a night.

          • Zap, supporting your point about Forrest (unless fishing was involved) there is this:

            “In the 1940s, when I was a very young teenager, my father and I liked to get up early to fish in Yellowstone Park. The gate didn’t open until 6:00 so the evening before we’d leave our car just inside the log fence that separated government land from the little village of West Yellowstone. Many times we found ourselves fishing at first light and it was not unusual for it to be cold enough for ice to form in the agate guide on the tip of my fly rod, making it difficult to retrieve the line.”


          • The show always ends when someone rides off into the sunset…that would be a new twist… ride off into the sunrise.

        • My whole point, TighterFocus.

          It is not KiSS, it’s simple, I mean, in one of the later comment from fenn states; need to ‘learn’ wwwh, right? and says; all the information to find the chest is in the poem, tells us to go back to the poem… not a line or a word.

          fenn implies a method of “thinking and analyzing”, “study the poem”, “if it was easy anyone could do it”… Stated: “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking”

          The simplistic idea that we only need to study one line at a time to get a deciphered clue then move on to the next line seems a fruitless concept. Where is the learning part of understanding anything?

          Clue are contained in a poem… shouldn’t the entire poem be more usable than just 9 lines of it? Especially when he says, every word was deliberate..

          • Seeker said: “My whole point, TighterFocus.
            It is not KiSS, it’s simple,”

            I guess your whole point is a contradiction.
            Oh brother!

          • Not.. I didn’t type not. Opps.
            But fromthe rest of the comment I think the message would have stood out.

          • OK Seeker,
            The long complicated message stood out as usual but is not clear as usual. Either way you give more examples and options than most here considering your longevity to the Chase.

            I just wish you would pay more attention to what your are trying to say and less what you actually do.

      • Didn’t Forrest say something like there are many words in the poem, ignore any of them at your own peril – or something like that – JDA

        • From Tarryscant, #2810 words, “there are few words in the poem that are not useful” I take that to mean that some words are just filler. IMO

        • Would you expect any less? 😉 Fine, I’ll elaborate. The inclusion of the word “ever” *may* suggest that from this point forward in the clues, the searcher will be continually getting closer (physically, not just metaphorically) to the treasure chest. And why is this important or helpful? Because that line might not be true at any earlier point in the poem.

          • Or could it mean that all the clues are located near the end?

            The end is ever drawing nigh = The end is always near

          • As I said I think it was added because the line was short one foot.

            At the same time I appreciate what you are saying.
            To me though, by F’s words, this is true from the very first clue. There is not other way etc etc.

            That’s my Opinion.

            And where have you been?

          • Hi Lugnutz: there are lots of ways he could have maintained the cadence of the poem aside from inserting “ever.” An example off the top of my head:

            Your journey’s end is drawing nigh;

            Given that he had other options, it’s wise to at least ponder whether “ever” was chosen because it was essential or merely syllabically convenient.

            “At the same time I appreciate what you are saying. To me though, by F’s words, this is true from the very first clue. There is not other way etc etc.”

            Depends on how one measures progress: number of clues solved, or proximity to the chest as the crow flies. The most direct route may be far from linear. A quote to revisit:

            “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

            Just because a route is “sure” doesn’t mean it’s direct. The route could be both indirect AND sure for the one who has solved all the clues.

            As for where I’ve been, a self-imposed timeout so that I could turn my energies to solving the Special Words clue that Forrest supplied Jenny Kyle, who in turn encrypted and published it in her Armchair Treasure Hunts book. For anyone who wants a handy reference for all of Forrest’s Six Questions, Featured Questions, Periodic Words, Weekly Words and so forth, I think it’s a very worthwhile investment. Plus there is a wide variety of puzzles and ciphers to solve contained within, culminating with her “Forgotten Word” puzzle which has a $500 prize for the first to solve it.

          • And I was referring to the Curtis exchange ~

            Question posted 6/20/2014:
            I have a question for Mr. Fenn:
            When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?

            Thank you Curtis
            The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f

          • Lugnutz: but nothing about the Curtis Q&A exchange requires the route to continually get closer to the chest as the clues are followed. The only safe way to Indulgence could be quite circuitous owing to the geography.

    • Because he need two more syllables or one more foot once he took the description of the clue and fit it in the poem.

      • “The end is ever drawing nigh” Why couldn’t this be a path that continues slowly to the left and eventually ends? I think “nigh” does not mean near.

        Just Say’n

    • Sherif –

      I’m Irish. My family is from Glinsk.

      My Great Uncle Josie lived with his wife Nora on the Ocean. They lived in a stacked stone house of two rooms. They kept a goat under a thatch roof in the garden. It’s quite literally the most beautiful place on Earth. Josie didn’t have a job. He was a fisherman. He went out in the Ocean and caught fish to eat. He used Nigh, pronounced with two syllables. He spoke English with Old Irish words. It was extremely difficult to understand what he was saying. His daughter lived maybe 400 feet away in a modern house. She also used the word, with closer to one syllable, Nie Jah. The same way they said the word Bridge. In fact the word bridge takes longer to say than the nae Brigid.

      When I was there the path between the two house was covered with tiny shore craps. I was told not to step on them because they were the souls of the Irish returning to Ireland at the same bay their family departed from.

  53. “Nailed down” In TTOTC Mr. Fenn said that he used “copper nails” for the clangers in his bells. I think that could be a hint, that goes along with Lapis Lazuli. Copper and Lapis are both found in San Juan county, CO.

  54. Zap, was wondering if you can tell me where this quote comes from (place and time):

    “Life adventures are like thunderstorms. It gets dark, the wind blows, everyone runs for cover. A few people get wet . . . then it’s gone, until the next one. And the survivors are those with the biggest umbrella.” — Forrest Fenn

  55. I hope someone can help me out. I believe there was something F said about, where warm waters halt has no name but is a name that is associated to…….

    I’m sure the words that I used is not accurate, but is a gist of what was said.

    • Hi Charlie, I never heard that quote, but the idea is interesting. Reading the second stanza, Iv’e though there was no reason why, the HOB, could not be at the same location as WWWH. Because the words “put in”, sounds like the place we are supposed to start. I could see WWWH being the general area, and HOB being the starting point.

    • I guess that what I post is primarily being ignored except maybe one person will comment, or I don’t belong to a long timers group.

      I ask a valid question and no real responses. Or is it some think I’m too firm in my thoughts.

      No crying here, I just don’t understand being out in the cold.

      • Hey-O CharlieM –

        I think a quote reading anything like what you paraphrased would be in most folk’s collection. But I not only have nothing like it, I couldn’t even hear any distant bells going off.

        Instead of a “dunno,” I was kind of waiting for someone to come up with something with at least similar wording, whether it turned out to read quite like your recollection or not.


      • CharlieM,
        Your not the only outcast in the great void. I’m one of the old timers in here & I get ignored too. I have found that if the information someone shares in here is either logical or too fare fetched for anyone to believe. If it is logical information the group is usually quite because they don’t want the comment noticed, they hope it goes quickly into the good night but if it’s not, it’s open season because they don’t feel threatened anymore. Mr. Fenn has said it perfectly, it’s the whispers. Those that speak occasionally but no one pays them any attention. Good luck!

    • Hi CharlieM: I’d have responded if I had an answer for you, but I can’t think of anything Forrest has said or written that’s a match. Maybe Seeker, Ken, JCM or Locolobo can pull a rabbit out of that hat…

      • Thanks zap, I thought I saw the comment within the last couple of weeks ago. Maybe it was wishful thinking from a dream.

        The idea how ever intrigued me as being strange but yet helpful in a small way. So I ask this question. Could it be wwwh has no name but can be associated to a name of a thing that exists geographically?

  56. Ok, finished reading all the propositions and filled in my ballot, now back to “ the end is ever drawing nigh’’…. doesn’t “drawing” indicate ongoing activite movement? Either you’re standing still watching something flow towards you, probably water; or, you’re the one in transport mode going towards an end? I’m so dizzy after analyzing the propositions, I’m not sure what’s nailed down.

    • OS2,

      In most cases draw means pulling – pulling towards.
      Other meanings, such as art, or intent, even movement etc.

      Even in movement it can mean pulling towards.. example “the driver slowed as he drew even with me” ~ straight from and example from the dictionary.

      Just for fun, IF we can use multiple meanings and usages of words for any thought or idea intended for those words… Should “take it in” relate to “looking” the idea of drawing is pulling towards you. And/or a scene/landscape/action to admire, not unlike an artistic rendition… the things you view… indicating a viewing area might be what is needed.

      • drawing to an end… or drawing to a close are fairly common by any standards. these could be used whether stomping or standing and taking in the view. yes? the word *ever* combined with *the end* seems to indicate movement towards something. I suppose it could infer movement of the eyes.

        • just to support other ideas that have been proposed… those could be in reference to *time*… with no physical movement. I suppose that could be true as well… just not really believable if one considers the activity of *searching*/ *moving* towards a treasure chest. that is the end game isn’t it?

          • Yes, Ken, that is the end game.

            F’s definition of what a clue does for a searcher should invoke a sense of physical movement…all things considered.

          • Fun,

            IF lead means follow physically and follow means movement… sure it is implied to be a point to point search idea.
            If follow means understanding and lead means showing… the idea of what is being done changes.
            Is can be an illusion right from the intro to the poem on how the masses would read that sentence. But the illusion would not be misleading… it would be, we just didn’t understand the usages of the words… we may have been too simplistic right from the get go.

            Not unlike Wordsmith’s [Q&A] homework to look up the word several, line of thinking… or the fact fenn looked up words and definitions of words himself… changing the poem over and over…

            LOL.. that would suck for all those hours of researched about head pressures, dams, mines, cave, different languages, bible verses, Native Americans, the glacial period, how clouds form, trout’s matting waters, everyone named Brown, 1625 surveying methods, historical location of outhouses, studying beaver habitations, the hibernation of bears [or whatever the other word was], using codes, looking up every family member and friends from 1930 on, or even knowing about alien eggs meant to suck the soul from the searcher who discovers the guarded trove [ Ha! that was the best one yet, I still chuckle at that ]

          • Seeker, I do believe it is more about the words than all of those other things you mentioned, including the alien eggs.

            It seems like it is either that we do not understand his usage of words. What message is he trying to send with these words? They have to somehow lead us to WWWH. How can he do that with words so it is difficult, but not impossible? Alternate word meanings, some letter and number combination? Sudoku? Something has to be the key.

          • Aaron,

            While we need to get the first clue specific and more than likely before any of the other 8 clues… I think the idea of attempting to find WWWH first is an illusion itself. It the most important for the ‘clues’… but don’t we need a location first and foremost? A location to even start figuring out where and what the first clue is?

            “I warned the path would not be direct…”
            You and hopefully all, know the comment… imo the ‘path’ is the clues [ all 9 ] but we need the location of all the clues first-and-foremost.

            To “find” the chest we then ‘need’ WWH correctly understood for that “location”… If you don’t have that “clue” you have nothing but a nice vacation… right? The idea we can find it out of the many, without a location to start with, is a dart toss in the four remaining states.

            Yet, I have to be honest, I’m a bit puzzled how some early searchers deciphered it… However, i’m not too surprised they didn’t know… imo it was a lucky guess [and was only ‘mentioned’ when they told fenn of their personal outing] and that is bound to happen.
            Only it didn’t produce anything… because apparently they just didn’t know they got it right. A “certainty of the ‘location’ beforehand” may have helped… and/or the proper way the poem might need to be read.

            What really surprises me is how later searchers also have mentioned WWH [ to fenn ] and still no one seems to know it. LOL or even having the first four clues ‘mentioned’ somehow, and fenn is uncertain they might not know… Is it because most are only reading the poem with one thinking process in mind? I D K… but something is batty right from the start.

          • Seeker, my question is does the poem not only help with the location of WWWH, but also make the remaining clues more solvable. Or, does stanza 1, and / or other stanza’s, help with only WWWH, and the rest of the clues stand alone as solvable without other help from the poem?

            If it is the former, and the only real hidden information gives you the location of WWWH, then you can see people solving for WWWH, and not making it much further. Maybe it wasn’t a dart toss or a guess for them, but the lack of finding the chest caused their confidence to waiver and they didn’t continue to use the correct WWWH.

          • Hi Aaron: I think your idea succinctly illustrates one reason why an early searcher who figured out WWWH might abandon it:

            “Maybe it wasn’t a dart toss or a guess for them, but the lack of finding the chest caused their confidence to waiver and they didn’t continue to use the correct WWWH.”

            Suppose clue #3 has a lateral-thinking solution, but a WWWH-solver thinks it’s literal and straightforward. That kind of miscalculation would forever block further progress. Seems to me that months or years of failure might eventually cause doubts to arise about even a correct WWWH.

          • Aaron,

            Sure… either scenario is possible. We just don’t know if the poem gives up the ‘idea’ of the location of the clues, or if the first clue is the glue to it all.
            Maybe that’s is where the “hint’s” from the book comes into play. “hints that help with the clues” idea, of where they are at, rather than hints that give suggestions for individual clue references?

            I mean, beside going reading over the poem and studying it, read the book for anything that catches the eye… were told to “plan and observe.” So regardless of the book or poem and their information they hold… it seems that, something in the field needs working on as well. Something that fenn himself *may* had to do just like he tells us to do… to “complete” the poem.
            We only ‘think’ the clues were ‘finalized’ on his end when the poem was worked on all those years prior to 2009 or 10 when he went to hide the chest. I find it interesting he finally case out ans stated he followed the clues… before the poem was “complete – completed” when supposedly it was worked on from the near start of the cancer [ 1988 ish ] and *kinda* finished 15 years later [ debatable, sure, but that’s what we have to work with ].

            In the attempt to make those comment true to each other, the idea is he needed to see his created clues do their job, to finish the poem completely… to find a blaze and 10″ spot, or place a blaze at the spot… We only assume the blaze should have been there prior to 1988 [ or the first thought of ‘taking it with him, and that 10″ spot as well.

          • Aaron, I’ll take a stab at answering your question of does the first stanza help one find wwwh, just wwwh or does it help with other clues. (I’ll stick with stanza 1 in this because I ain’t got jack from other stanzas (5 and 6).

            I felt for a long time that stanza 1 helps narrow down the correct area where the correct wwwh will be found.

            Then, one day while thinking through a solve I had, I thought about the blaze. I thought about does the poem tell us the blaze before going botg.

            If the poem does, my next thought was an interesting moment for me. I thought back to f’s description of what a clue does for us. It points one closer to the tc.

            After realizing that, I came up with the conclusion that if the blaze is described in the poem it has to be described in a stanza that doesn’t include any of the other clues or it would violate the meaning of a clue from f. I don’t believe just the line in the poem “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze” describes the blaze in any detail.

            So, to me I figured the first stanza describes the correct beginning location and the blaze. That specific geographical location is the blaze. T C Eliot poem…By finding this through a hint in the first stanza it doesn’t violate the rule for what a clue is. Imo

          • Fun~ ‘So, to me I figured the first stanza describes the correct beginning location and the blaze. That specific geographical location is the blaze’

            Ok, but I have a couple inquiries;
            How large is that location?
            How do we understand the Q&A ‘If you can find the blaze the distance to the chest would be obvious? Seemingly after all the other clues are accomplished in order.

            I mean, Obvious wouldn’t leave room for any guessing or uncertainty… right?

          • Zap, you stated “Suppose clue #3 has a lateral-thinking solution, but a WWWH-solver thinks it’s literal and straightforward. ”

            Are you bringing this up based on your own experience with the clues?


            This type of thinking would suggest that they are trying to find the third clue using the same logic as the previous clues. Which makes me think you are suggesting that you believe that WWWH is literal and straightforward.

          • FD, I think it would make good sense for the beginning and the end, the blaze, to be somehow added, as a hint, in the first stanza. Not unlike an introductory paragraph.

          • Seeker, a mountain peak large.

            No uncertainty in that if it is correct.

            Also, one would know the distance to the tc by seeing how close the specific mountain peak is.

          • Hi Aaron: as you suspected, I did bring up that clue #3 possibility because the solution I’m using is an exercise in logic and backwards bicycle riding. I still think it’s one of the hardest clues to solve, and history seems to support me on that opinion.

            “This type of thinking would suggest that they are trying to find the third clue using the same logic as the previous clues. Which makes me think you are suggesting that you believe that WWWH is literal and straightforward.”

            I don’t know that I would say my WWWH is literal; mine is a lock-and-key solution. The lock is straightforward, but the key is decidedly not.

            If every clue was a puzzle of the same basic mold, then whoever was first to solve the first clue would likely have plowed through the rest in short order. I think we can all agree that Forrest didn’t intend this to be a foot race.

            I think what makes Forrest’s poem so difficult is that different puzzle-solving skills are brought to bear in deciphering each clue.

          • Zap, I have yet to see a straightforward lock in the poem, I am assuming you have elaborated on this before?

            “A brazen key she held, the handle turn’d, With steel and polish’d elephant adorn’d;”

          • Zap, finding WWWH is difficult enough, but if each clue requires a different method to solve, none being literal, then I don’t know that it will ever be possible to proceed with confidence.

        • Ken,

          Right. With time involved [ if it’s read that way ] takes on a whole new reading of the poem and words that could relate. It all seems to come down to ‘thinking the right thoughts.’ I agreed with a searcher who stated the poem is an illusion, not that there is any degree of dishonest or misleading. It all falls down to what fenn intended when he wrote the clues.
          In this case, the meanings of words change from a single idea to another… for a poor example; warm as a color or framed around the idea of a color, would also include the possibility of cold as a color. If warm is only thought as a temperature, cold more than likely could will be thought of the same way. If warm means living or alive, Cold would mean dead … the illusion is how we perceive, have perspectives of the words throughout the poem… such as stomping vs. view give the readers different word usages to work with.

          Yep, the idea was supposed to get folks to the outdoors and explore, to have sweaty bodies stomping all over the RM’s… Well, the poem has done its job for that… but is it the correct way to “solve” it? or is it we simply don’t ‘see’ it the way fenn does?
          However, there is a small problem with the view theory. Why fenn would need to follow the clues by viewing them.

          He created the clues by recalling the area that he knows well. No maps used. He knew within a short distances or small location were he want to be at. But he himself would have had to ‘align’ the recalling of the clues to a very fine, exact spot to make it all work precisely…. hence the clues will ‘lead’ [as in ‘show’] you where the blaze is… regardless of what it is. This doesn’t change the fact he knew where he wanted to be… it just give the clues exact positioning needed to be there, at a defined spot, in the place he wanted it to be.

          • Seeker… I’ve been wondering when you would come the conclusion that the *viewing theory* doesn’t really align very well with everything Fenn has said over the years. As I have said before… very early in the Chase I went through the Viewing phase extensively. As time came and went and the ATF broadened things a bit more, I moved away from that idea as I realized that Fenn created the Chase to get folks out exploring and learning. What would be the point in walking a very short distance to begin viewing all of the clues down to a particular point. Kinda sounds like sitting on the couch viewing the tube.

          • Ideas for comment, Seeker.

            On a color palette, warm colors are primarily red, yellow, orange; cool colors are green, blue, purple.

            Applying this info, the Green River originating in WY, for example, could be considered a cool river by name, rather than by water temperature.

            The upper part of the Green River is halted by several dams, Flaming Gorge being the largest of those.

            Browns Park National Wildlife Refuge is on the lower stretch of the Green River in NW, Colorado, and downstream of Flaming Gorge.

            Stanza 2 could be used to identify this specific river on large scale and then used again on a very small scale, without need to understand the relevance of Flaming Gorge Dam to the solve at all, to identify the exact hiding spot for the chest as one moves away from the place for the meek, Green River, and up a wash, or small creek, at some point along the course of the river, either upstream or downstream from the main points referenced here.

            I think such an approach may be in-line with your general concept that a multi-level and diverse understanding of the possible meanings for words may be needed to hone in on the solution by thinking, pondering, gradually targeting, and ultimately acting on those insights.

            Thoughts on approach, and not the exact solution appreciated.

            Thanks in advance.

          • Ken~ ‘Seeker… I’ve been wondering when you would come the conclusion that the *viewing theory* doesn’t really align very well with everything Fenn has said over the years.’

            Not really what I said/meant; I said I couldn’t understand why ‘fenn’ would have the need to follow his own created clues. But I did try to give a reason for that. It’s funny though… you said you looked into the View theory and walked away… where I did the same with the stomping theory and made a better connection to the view theory… lol

            Some reasoning; but not all;
            “A’ place on a map”
            Fenn walked in one afternoon to the hide. That didn’t say at the time he followed the clues to do it.
            Tells us we should be able to walk several hours ‘TO our Solve’ … This *Might* indicate the idea we need to walked to the location of all the clues, that *might* be viewed from that location [ or as I think, from WWH ].

            Then fenn say he followed the clues… For the life of me I can’t understand why he would… and then say he took the most direct route in and out. Which implies there’s more than one way to get to the hide… so the idea of one way in and out is in questioned. The simple idea is he had to “follow” the clues visually to find the exact spot to see all the clues in a ‘one and only spot.’

            Then he hid the chest… at the same time… the poem was complete (completed?) and still in the same ‘place’ he planned to be at.
            The thing now is… the blaze?
            Did he mark something?
            Does the poem refer to something?
            Did he place something there that only a searcher would understand with a correct solve? [ maybe the correct understand of how the clues actually work?]

            Where looking for a blaze, not a chest… but seemingly it can not be “discovered” [ which means knowing [wise] what you have ‘found’ ], without the first clue.
            And personally, even thought we might be able to decipher clues “references” at home… the practice of “following” clues [stomping] as failed miserably.
            I have not seen one posting of any solve involving a viewing style theory, have you?. Talked about, yes, but not ever showing a searcher doing it, for a solve.

            Unless you count all the crocs, and horseshoes, and owls and bear shape of rivers and rocks folks post from GE images.

            All hypothetical and theoretical… but so is the stomping point to point method.

          • HA HA Seeker… I thought that would amp you up a bit. The thing is… after all these years I still rely heavily on what I learned along the way with my early adventures with the *View* idea. As others have pointed out in many scenarios… I believe it is essential to at least be aware of the *take it in* possibilities…and to not get too focused on one avenue too much. Hints will help with the clues…and the clues will take you closer to the treasure….no matter what the distance in between is.

          • Ken,

            Yep… hints and clues should do the job.
            If we can understand how the job is truly accomplished, or better competed.

      • Yes Seeker, I think “take it in” could mean an eyeball action, or it’s intellectual result rather than a large-muscle action. This is maybe the first fork the author and reader must take together… (if you know what I mean). Would a pirate captain put an instruction on his treasure map to stop at this point and take a visual? Maybe, but, to my mind, that is a little too motherly for a piratey treasure hunt. Logically possible, but not a likely message from the Captain. I think I would be noting ‘the visuals’ every step of the way. Its a 60-40 fork for me.

        • The way I see ‘take in’ could work as a view is this. From WWWH you have have a view of the HoB area, across or just down the canyon. Walking to it from there though is too far, possibly because you would have to go down and up a canyon that is practically impassible. So you have to take the alternate route to a ‘put in’ area below it.

          • But if you are at the WWWH place, and know the next step is to ‘take it in the canyon down’, aren’t you naturally and logical taking the view in, reading & considering & comparing the rest of the sentence to the view around you in order to follow the poem? You know you are on a hunt, isn’t that what you do on a hunt? So, though the statement ‘take it in’ is not untrue, it is not an instruction. Its like saying walk means to take steps forward.

          • That’s correct OS2. In the scenario I described, the ‘take it in’ is purposeful for locating the area of a future clue.

          • OK, I get your example Aaron, but WHY does one need to be at WWWH to see that you go over there? Why not just go to the next spot, skip wwwh? Couldn’t you do the ‘viewing’ with GE? Why waste your time…after all if you found HOB you’d go right to it? I think there is some reason for needing to ‘be’ at wwwh…I don’t think it is a view. NFBTFTW to me is the magic bullet…I just have no idea what the target is, or where the gun is, or who shot it…or anything else…back to canasta.

          • TBug, first this is all hypothetical. For this viewing method to work, you do not know HoB before being physically at WWWH. From there you are able to view it. Maybe by either recognizing it by simply looking at, or in conjunction with a map. Either way, this though process requires BOTG at WWWH.

          • Aaron, thanks, that makes more sense (the only way to know HOB is botg)…doesn’t align with all the ATFs, but I get what you’re saying. Can you elaborate/share an example of a type of HOB that you can only know by seeing it yourself and NOT on GE? That I have a tough time with. I suppose if the key part of the clue is ‘home’ maybe that part? I dunno, if in theory all the clues can be solved at home, it just doesn’t seem to work.

          • Tbug, this is all hypothetical and I really don’t have good examples. I wish I did. It seems like TFTW and/or HoB is where the WWWH finders got lost. How so if easily found on the map?

            What ATF’s make you think that HoB can be found from home? “In theory, but not in practice”? That is not a clear enough answer for me, like most.

  57. What really mystifies me is that Little Indie can only interpret the first two clues because she cant do a visual-physical BOG. But the finder will have ‘confidence’ before he leaves the house! How is that possible? Does ‘confidence’ require some BOG experience prior to the retrieval trip? My gut impression is that the finder with the ‘confidence’ (knowledge deducted from the poem) can get himself up to the blaze but from there some original & creative thinking might be necessary.

    • I agree OS2 , this is my biggest disconnect. I believe that Forrest stated that because of the use of a paper map does not allow for the definition needed to continue past the second clue. GE does allow anyone to continue even a little girl in India. This still doesn’t guarantee confidence . IMO

      • ** ** ** TimC – “I believe that Forrest stated that because of the use of a paper map does not allow for the definition needed to continue past the second clue.” ** ** **


      • Tim Cottreil,

        LOL many of us missed fenn stated BIWWWH is the first clue… Audio NZ 2013.
        I won’t be surprised fenn may have said what you posted. But can you give a reference? I never heard that or just can’t recall, and would like to review it.

    • Hi OS2: I don’t think we can assume from Forrest’s answer that our intrepid Little Indie can’t solve clues 3 and beyond. Forrest said she couldn’t get CLOSER than the first two clues. What if clue #3 is further from the chest than clue #2 (or even the same distance as clue #2, as it sounds like it would be in Seeker’s favored scenario)? What if clue #2 is of sufficient size that it encompasses the treasure chest’s location? In that case, the distance is technically already zero, and so it becomes impossible to get “closer.”

      • Like I said, 60-40. But thanks, I hadn’t caught the possible word play between CLOSER (physical) & BEYOND (intellectual). I often abandon Seeker’s missives unfinished. He makes some interesting points, but my eyes cross trying to track the thread. Reminds me of politicians… never sayin in 10 words what they can say in 50.

      • Zap…great way to put that. That is one idea that squelched some of my earlier thoughts before that famous Little Indie comment. As the Chase progresses it becomes a little more clear at just how hazy/muddy Fenn’s comments have been.

        • Thanks, Ken. At times Forrest reminds me of the stereotypical “genie of the lamp” who exploits any loophole in a wishmaker’s wish. In the old X-Files episode “Je Souhaite” (I Wish, en francais), Fox Mulder as his first wish asks for world peace, and the jinniyah wipes the Earth clean of all humans except for him. Be careful what you wish for!

  58. Question on the personality test I just took:

    You often spend time exploring unrealistic and impractical yet intriguing ideas.

  59. lets assume that we are in the right canyon below the right warm water in the canyon because we went down then we are about to the correct end. in the canyon where the right creek is neer by. along with other ingredients. could it not just be a verafier to let you know your close to your end? remember my brain is damaged so this may not mean much just a thought

  60. one last funny thought every time i think im, close my mind, takes me farther away, like riding a pony that caught ny eye as did the daffodils time planted me on this earth to explore its beauty and so i shall enjoy all, cant wait to sit on the banko and marvel gaze some day still searching for there. be safe i2d that

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