The Nine Clues…

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This is the place to discuss the nine clues…For instance:
What are the nine clues…
Forrest has told us that  “Begin it where warm waters halt” is the first clue. What is the next clue.

412 thoughts on “The Nine Clues…

    • I think the solve for “heavy loads and water high”, is Creston. Get it? Heavy loads is a (ton), and water high is (crest). I think he reversed the order to make it easier to disguise.

      • Quite simple, that which most consider to be a clue just isnt so. Sound familiar?
        It’s the little things that count and in interrest of the poem, the seemingly insignificant words and letters that count. It. In.
        And y, for example. Maybe even if. All components of infinity.
        It is my belief that what most people consider to be a clue is/are merely place holders to allow proper alignment of the real clues. At least this is the case in poem as a map. It’s what us architects do.
        Its uncanning how the proper dot to dot connection of the components of infinity (within the poem) match a particular geographic location.

        • Yeah, I’m kind of thinking the same thing now too. That post is rather dated. The Chase has been going on so long now it’s more of an evolution of ideas than a simple treasure hunt. I’ve got a new idea about how to read the poem that I’m excited about tinkering with. Perhaps it may come of somethin.

  1. My 9 clues are in these lines:
    1. Begin it where warm waters halt
    2. And take it in the canyon down
    3. Put in below the home of Brown
    4. From there it’s no place for the meek
    5. The end is ever drawing nigh
    6. There’ll be no paddle up your creek
    7. and 8. Just heavy loads and water high
    9. the blaze

    My thinking hasn’t changed much in a few years and will never for my 9 clues.
    Before this way of thinking I thought any word, phrase, punc was a clue.
    KISS

    • I don’t generally try and count clues, but I just did to compare with your list and I think you’ve got it spot on per my way of thinking.

      • No matter how and when you add them up, whether before or after, you must come up with 9.

        You came up with the same clues using a different method but I like to know what I’m looking for in the poem by Forrest’s words.

        Either way, it’s a nice way of thinking as long as you end up what he stated several times.

    • Hi Jake,
      My clues differ a bit from yours, so here goes: 1 and 2 are the same. 3/ Put in. 4/ Below the home of Brown. 5/ The end. 6/ is ever drawing nigh. 7/ there’ll be no paddle. 8/ up your creek. 9/ If you’ve been wise and found the blaze.

      Doing it this way I have been able to fit them into a location, but am still struggling with clue # 9.

      Good luck with yours.
      Jeff C

    • I know I said I will never change my 9 clues but want to try something slightly different.

      7. Just heavy loads and water high (I think these things are together up your creek)
      8. If you’ve been wise – or just “wise”
      9. the blaze
      Game over when you find the blaze, whatever that looks like in person IDK.

    • If you absolutely refuse to be flexible (willing to change), you may limit opportunities for advancement in solving the poem. Good luck to you.

      • I’m good what I got , how bout you Andrew?
        I don’t see your 9 clues on this page.
        I’m going to order a “tornado pineapple pizza” to help my 9 clues.
        “Laid out” while my mouth waters warm to eat with a (fine-tooth-comb) because I have no forken clue.

    • Jake Faulker

      My 9 clues are almost identical to yours… with a slight twist:
      Clues 1 to 3 are the four lines in the second stanza as you have stated. {Not far, but too far to walk I believe helps verify you are going to the correct HOB. More like a hint}
      Clue 4 I see as a combination of your 4 and 5 – one has to get nearer to the end to exit the “no place for the meek”
      Clue 5 would be “There’ll be no paddle…”
      Clue 6 and 7 are a combined clue – confirming each other (your 7 and 8).

      If you’ve been wise and found the blaze … now f gives us some clues as to what the Blaze is and what to do when we are at the blaze.

      Clue 8 is to look quickly down (when you are at the blaze)
      Clue 9 is Marvel gaze… which in MOO {My opinion only} is the clue as to what the Blaze actually is. I do believe that there are further clarifying hints as well to the blaze such as “if you are brave” “and in the wood” {but not in the typical sense people might associate those words}

      All this is MOO – {my opinion only} – a solve I all but stumbled upon – figuratively – seemed to keep validating itself for me without trying to make things fit as one clue (if these are correct) seemed to make the next more like a “well duh!” moment.

      Sadly, BOTG for myself does not look like a possibility for some time to come – if ever – so am expecting someone like yourself whose clues match up so close to what I see, confirming or disproving my view in time.
      ***Good luck and stay healthy!!! What a crazy year!

      • HotL,

        You inspired me to post a revised edition of the nine clues. I still think the rest of the poem helps identify these:

        The Nine Clues
        1. Begin it where warm waters halt
        2. and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk.
        3. Put in below the home of Brown.
        4. From there it’s no place for the meek, the end is ever drawing nigh;
        5. there’ll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high.
        6. If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down, your quest to cease,
        7. but tarry scant with marvel gaze, just take the chest and go in peace.
        8. So hear me all and listen good, your effort will be worth the cold.
        9. If you are brave and in the wood I give you title to the gold.

        Identifying the nine clues, still remains a work in progress. All IMO.

        -Ann

          • DTakaRS,

            No problem! I enjoy exchanging ideas here. I had a very different list before. But after reviewing some videos and some of FF’s comments about some of the stanzas I came up with the revised list you commented on. But just a short while ago I realized something about my 8 & 9 above and changed the clues to the list below.

            I think 8 & 9 are a description of something that occurs after the chest is found. I am looking into stanza one now to see if it may have a similar application. All IMO.

            -Ann

        • PS-

          In reading over this revised list I posted earlier today I realized what numbers 8 and 9 mean and have made the following changes:

          The Nine Clues
          1. Begin it where warm waters halt
          2. and take it in the canyon down,
          3. not far, but too far to walk.
          4. Put in below the home of Brown.
          5. From there it’s no place for the meek,
          6. the end is ever drawing nigh;
          7. there’ll be no paddle up your creek,
          8. just heavy loads and water high.
          9. If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down, your quest to cease,

          If the beginning of the poem serves a similar purpose as the end then this little exercise may have helped. Thanks! All IMO.

          -Ann

          • That’s pretty darn close to what I have as the 9.
            I think you’re getting closer to what they are and I think I’m 99% sure.

            I like – Just heavy loads and water high. – to be 1 clue as in the 7th clue.
            The word “and” separates what you would think are 2 separate clues “Just heavy loads” AND “water high” but seeing this line describes what will be up your creek, I have to think it’s one clue and I think the “Just” indicates there is no treasure here around “heavy loads” and “water high”. That’s all that’s here.

            I know, “and” is in the middle of the next line also but I think “been wise” and “the blaze” are 2 separate clues and being wise helps you with the 9th clue “the blaze”.

            I’ll bet my hat that it goes either way:
            2 clues in line 12 and 1 clue in line 13.
            OR:
            1 clue in line 12 and 2 clues in line 13.

            Y’all analyze it for a few weeks or years and you should come to the same conclusion.
            Best bet is JHLAwH is 1 clue.
            “been wise” and “the blaze” are 2 separate clues.

            I cannot type a “w” for a month or so on my keyboard.
            C&P, thanks for letting me use them.
            There’s always another way.

          • Jake,

            Thanks! Yeah, I was not sure what to make of the nine clues for some time. I would have thought that the searcher community would have come to some sort of well reasoned consensus by now but that apparently is not the case.

            Like some others, I wondered if it wasn’t the nine sentences at first. FF’s remarks about WWWH being clue one seem to nullify that. And it was actually this very notion that led me to the take that the first stanza has something to do with identifying WWWH.

            I’m not sure I have that part right yet, but in applying stanza one as such, I revamped the list of nine clues. And when I did that, the likely meaning of stanza six became more clear and that caused me to refine the list even further.

            So, now I am content with having identified the parts of the poem and their roles in the Chase. All that remains is applying them to the correct location. But having the structure of the poem settled helps immensely. Now I do not have to bother with what this stanza or line is for. I just have to apply it.

            I have also developed a litmus test for any given area that will help in any proposed location. Seems all that may be needed now are some BOTG!

            All IMO.

            -Ann

          • I agree.
            I do believe you have to get the 9 clues (lines and/or phrases) locked down in the poem before you even think about places or things at places.

            Keep in mind the only true test is finding the chest.

          • Jake,

            Absolutely! Unfortunately, I have no immediate plans for BOTG. Would love to make it out that way for sure. Just not at the top of my to do list. But since we are exchanging ideas here. Are there any methods of interpretation you have ruled out over the years?

            I ask not to ascertain what it is you are doing currently. I am interested in your thoughts about failed attempts. Like, say you had an idea about HOB referring to a person (and this is strictly hypothetical). So you made a list of potential Brown’s in terms of people and visited key locations associated with them.

            Examples could be Molly Brown’s house, Joe Brown put-in and cabin ruins, Estella Brown grave marker, grave sight of Sacajawea, etc., etc. So you say to yourself, Brown refers to a specific person and here is a list of likely candidates. Then you go out an search these places only to come up empty. The natural conclusion is that Brown does not refer to a person.

            Have you encountered a specific method such as the example I just mentioned where you were able to say, that is just the wrong line of thinking?

            In my short time in the Chase, I have seen a lot of thoughts and ideas being thrown around. I have not seen a lot of discussion on what hasn’t worked in terms of tested examples.

            I realize it is possible to read through all the years of ATFs and possibly ascertain some of what hasn’t worked. That would take a very long time I imagine. And I imagine there are far fewer searchers who have put enough time into BOTG, such as Dal and Cynthia to name a few, who could say they thoroughly tested one particular idea or another.

            So I ask those who feel they have laid to rest a particular idea, what was it you feel was laid to rest and/or why? Feel free to share what you wish. No offense taken either way. Just curious.

            As a side note, I imagine some ideas are easier to test than others. For example, my notion of halt is much easier to test than say someone considering geysers or hot springs. The reason being, there are far fewer places that fit the idea of halt to which I am referring.

            That’s all I have for now! Thanks for sharing Jake and looking forward to your continued thoughts.

            All IMO.

            -Ann

  2. One of the most interesting ideas that has been tossed around is that the nine clues are actually constructed like the clues in a crossword puzzle with across and down clues and when properly set-up the crossword gives you the proper perspective to understand the puzzle of the poem…

    One of the clues to this idea is the word “down”…as in Take it in the canyon down…and “down” being a hint that the solution to that clue is a down word in the crossword…

    I’ve seen some interesting crosswords formed from the clues using this idea but if this is the accurate way to interpret the clues no one has yet come up with the proper crossword that will solve all nine clues and therefore locate the chest…

    I will say that one piece of supporting information for the solution to the poem being in a crossword is that Forrest enjoys crossword puzzles…and looks forward to the Sunday crossword puzzle in his newspaper…

    This has been reported by more than one of his friends…and I will also say that I have also observed Forrest enjoy solving the crossword puzzle in his Sunday paper…

    • One of the arguments against a crossword puzzle is Forrest’s statement in Scrapbook Sixty Two …
      “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map. f”
      http://dalneitzel.com/2014/04/26/scrapbook-sixty-two/

      But then you would have to believe that a crossword puzzle falls into one of those items he has ruled out….or you would just have to agree that in the above statement Forrest ruled out crosswords in the “spirit” of what he stated…

      Many folks disagree and still consider a crossword puzzle approach as a “simple” approach to solving the poem…

      • I’m a fan. I’m still just at the beginning, just scratching the surface, no chest here. But I think it helps explain why the poem is constructed the way it is and why it took the architect some time to get the blueprint exactly how he wanted it.

        “And the General sat……

      • ff has also now used the word “Puzzle” to describe his “Riddle” in reference to the poem…

        from video on Cynthia’s blog with NYT reporter, (link for Cynthia’s blog are bottom of this page)

        nyt reporter:
        “but what if you think that you’ve
        found where the warm waters halt.”

        ff:
        ” therein lies the puzzle and I rest my case again.
        find where warm water halts and let that
        take you to the puzzle because, I can
        show you millions of blazes..”

        • Writis – I’ve liked the word “puzzle” to apply to the poem. IMO, finding the location where all the pieces fit together is synonymous with finding the location where all the lines cross.

    • Dal. I found something about the chest that lead to crossword puzzles. It had to do with a word from the information history of the chest. Back in January a post on the chase site posted the archology book that had a picture of the chest lid. Siege of the church. Something like that.

    • Very good reasoning, Allen. That’s the first time I’ve seen someone put that together. Great quote source to back up your reasoning. I think you’re on to something!

    • That’s logical… But really not late breaking news. fenn told us [once in audio] WWH is the first clue, and we need it or we have nothing. We have a Q&A stating -in part- if you can find the blaze the distance to the chest would be obvious. There are a few aligning comments that give us WWH to the blaze as the section of the poem that, seemingly, leads us to the hide by what of clues…
      What’s the point in the additional 15 line in the poem, since very word was deliberate and would be risky to discount them? Three plus stanzas have to have some reasoning behind them… right?

      • I should explain; IF the poem works like across word… are the other lines in the poem “needed”
        If the idea of across word method is not usable… we still have more than 1/2 the poem to consider for some reason. And that is a lot of words to consider, right?

      • Seeker…maybe the lines of the poem that seem to be left overs *help* with the actual clues as additional info. That comment from fenn has been dissected to pieces…one only needs to go back in the *Blaze archives* right after it came out. It was mentioned here not long ago as well.

        • I familiar with many chats on the subject, ken.
          The two points I was making was about a method [ cross word style ] and are the other line before and after in play? or only from WWH to the Blaze?

          The other thought was more about the poem’s line, not involving between WW and the blaze, as needed… a deliberate need… whether they were meant to help with the clues, find a location of the clues, give a more direct reference to the clues or any other speculative idea… are those lines “needed” ? {kinda thinking in lines with the Q&A ~ Nope, Nope} Or do we just utilize the two stanzas and a line or two in the third stanza and “figure” it out “on site”? And might the other lines in the poem come into play of site, After, the clues references are known of??

          We’re talking about methods and method of reading for what a clue is and where in the poem the clues are framed… In each example to the topic of the methods, are the remaining lines used? I would hope they are, but I don’t look at all this, as basically, 9 lines only, no matter what method anyone chooses to proceed with.

          If I’m being truly honest; a cross word style solve sounds more like a game than straight forward, line of thinking. But I try to join in the chat no matter if I agree or disagree… There are still a lot of WhatIF’s to consider, no matter the method of the process we can come up with.

          • Seek-
            I think it works like a standard word puzzle that has two sets of clues….across and down…
            So the across set of clues might start with
            1. Where warm waters halt

            the down clues might start with
            1. Canyon

            If you set it up correctly (according to those who have used this idea you get names of places that when followed will take you to the chest…

            For instance…and for example only…
            Lets say the answer to 1. across is “Madison Junction” then the answer to 1. down would be the name of a canyon starting with the letter “M”…because 1. across and 1. down start at the same place in the crossword puzzle…

            The extra words simply tell you how to follow that clue to get to the chest…ie..Begin it….and take that canyon…

            It’s intriguing…but no less frustrating…
            For instance…are there any more across clues? or are all the rest down clues made from the letters in 1. across?

            If they are all down does that mean that 1, across should have 8 letters”

            and what will the rest of the across words tell us???

            At Fennboree a few years ago I actually saw someone’s completed crossword with all the clues used and some pretty interesting new clues garnered from the rest of the words in the puzzle…
            But it was mostly non-sensicle and still needed work….

    • I like it Allen, but if “the blaze” is the last clue, why do we care what “in the wood” means? Or any word after blaze for that matter?

      • Fenn said WWH is clue #1. So what do we do with the entire first stanza? If it doesn’t contain a clue, can we dismiss it?

        To clarify, I think the last clue is “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down your quest to cease.”

        In the Moby Dickens interview:
        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RzrIu3hMec

        Fenn had a strong pause, and looked at the crowd after “Look quickly down your quest to CEASE”

        And then he forgot what came after “So hear me all and listen good…”

        I memorized this poem after a week. I’m not barging about that feat, but I think it’s very telling that Fenn forgot, or didn’t care to remember, the last stanza. It may have been added as legalese. Maybe the first stanza too?

        Again, just my $0.02 — just sharing my thoughts.

          • Don’t ask me to explain, but I think the poem works outside to in…then inside to out…I can visualize that.

        • Allen;

          I think that I am fairly sharp mentally. My reasoning powers and ability to think logically are as sharp today as they were ten or even twenty years ago. That being said, at 76, My short-term memory is NOT what it once way. Ask me about things a few years ago, and I remember them well. Ask me what I had for breakfast, and you MIGHT get an “I don’t remember.” Forrest is a few years older than I am. I too memorized the poem in a very short period of time, but occasionally stumble when repeating it either to myself or as a part of a post. From the mind of an OLD guy – I think 🙂 – JDA

          • JDA – I knew this comment was coming, but I agree with you. He could have simply just forgotten. But…

            He seemed very confident to put the paper down and recite the poem, perfectly, until he hit that stanza.

            But I also forget my own phone # sometimes :/

          • Allen,
            it’s not a big deal for me if fenn double check the wording o not or just had a hiccup…
            But it is interesting that words like “I have” and “I’ve” are both used and not one or the other.

            The same with If “you’ve” been wise vs. If “you are”.. why not you’re?
            Why is “there’ll vs, there will?
            Does any of it have to do with how we hear and/or listen? Do these words help with clues?

            I never understood why the poem didn’t starts; As I’ve gone alone… and be the same as, I’ve done it tired. But it seems deliberate to me.

          • Allen

            I hope you don’t mind my butting in.

            I write both songs an poems. Always have.

            When I lose track of or forget a lyric it’s from the part of the song or poem that was changed.

        • Allen,
          Have you ever heard this video where Forrest says “blaze” one of the clues?
          “I think the problem that searchers make is they don’t dwell long enough on the first clue. If you can’t find the first clue, you don’t have anything. I mean there’s people driving down the street looking for a blaze, because that’s one of the clues.”

          1:05
          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=T_fPF8Gc1I8

          I think everything after “blaze” is not a clue.

          • Yes! I forgot about this one. It doesn’t confirm the blaze is the last clue, but it highlights the fact that the blaze is one of the important final clues.

          • No this video alone doesn’t confirm that “blaze” is the last clue but with the video you posted, and with all the other statements by Forrest mentioning the 1st clue and the blaze, it certainly is the last clue at a place you have to figure and the treasure is there waiting for us below the blaze. No brainer IMO.

          • @ Ken and Allen –
            I am not convinced that FF definitively stated that the blaze is a clue in the video linked above. IMO he was just playing out the scenario that searchers were starting in the middle of the poem by looking for the blaze because they thought it was a clue.

          • Suite yourself Bowmarc.
            I know what Forrest said and I’m not going to ignore it because it doesn’t fit with my solve.

          • @ Jake – I have seen and heard the video footage. FF does not use the same exuberance when he comments about the blaze in said video footage as he did when he definitively stated that the first clue is WWWH and that is why I say, IMO, that FF has not stated that the blaze is a clue. I concede that he has talked several times about the blaze, but nothing I have read/seen/heard leads me to believe that is definitively a clue.

            To me, it is in the same realm as when FF made the comment “Here is a lady who may find the treasure because she has done the math and knows exactly where it is.” Does that tell you that there are numbers involved in TTOTC and/or math, or was it more of a funny comment by FF in response to the woman telling him a funny story of how she dreamt of numbers? To me it is the latter explanation.

            Just food for thought.

          • Bowmarc,

            If the blaze wouldn’t be a clue by those ‘standards’… HoB might not be either. fenn said never mentioned hoB as a clue, only if you khew what it was, you’d go right to the chest… right?
            The same for the blaze Q&A If you can find the blaze the distance to the chest would be obvious.

            You use an e-mail of a searcher talking about her ideas, and fenn posting that.
            Well, another email claimed this was all a medical research test for dementia… fenn answered [something to the affect] When he had the first signs of dementia he wrote down were he hid the chest, but can’t remember were he place the note and would have to ask his wife Phyllis if she knew.
            By that standard… fenn should have dementia.. right?

            I would think the line; “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze…” would imply the finding of a blaze is needed as a clue. Be it a point along the way or a marker.. whatever… we are told to Look quickly down once the blaze is discovered.
            That implies a clue that get you closer.. even if the chest is buried.

          • @ Seeker: That is what is frustrating sometimes about this process, trying to decide what is and what isn’t a clue as opposed to what is and what isn’t a hint, what is and what isn’t FF poking fun at a question, questioner, comment, etc.

            To me, his response about people driving around “…looking for the blaze because that’s one of the clues…” is not as straight forward an indication by him that the blaze is a clue as his statement about WWWH being the first clue.

            Nobody has found the treasure yet, but some searchers have been within 200 feet of the treasure, but left the poem, possibly in search of a blaze they erroneously were thinking was a clue is the point of my commentary on this topic. Take the blaze out of the equation and perhaps a searcher gets closer to the treasure than 200 feet?

            Just food for thought.

            PS The dementia exchange, IMO, was one of those instances where FF was poking fun at the topic.

          • Bowmarc,

            “…looking for the blaze because that’s one of the clues…”

            For me that is as straight forward as it gets. Not unlike; “although I’m not ready to say the chest is not in water…” { Q&A about sealing the jar }

            Do we really expect fenn to always come out and add; “not under”?
            I mean, he did say “IF you can find the blaze”… the distance to the chest would be obvious. How can the blaze not be a clue when it’s mentioned in the poem… If you’ve been wise and found it?

          • “… you can find it if you can find the blaze as a result of starting with the first clue. That’s what you have to do.”

          • @ Seeker – I’m still not sold it was FF’s assertion that the blaze is a clue from that comment.

            It won’t be the first time we will have to agree to disagree on specifics. LOL

          • Standing anywhere in the Rocky’s you can spot some kind of blaze, as FF has describe several different kinds. I feel you must complete the first 3 stanzas of it, to be in the correct area of the correct blaze, if you been wise. You may be faced with more then one blaze to deal with to complete the solve. The things I write here are loose thoughts, and food for thought. When I make a comment it is in thought of sharing, and learning. For those of you so called experts that seem to get your feathers ruffled so easily, just calm down, it is only entertainment, with a chance to learn, and have new experiences.

    • Allen,

      IMO…LQD is #6…AND, I like that it is “abbreviated” liquid too?? LQD is also a bond portfolio (ETF) offered by BlackRock. Liquidity (with regards to investments): assets readily converted to cash/cache?? Big black rock next to a beaver pond…?

      My wife says I’m waaay over cooking this thing 🙂

      I’m sure she’s right.

  3. Forest Fenn said to look at the big picture and that any school child can figure it out and maybe even a redneck too, cause he said he hopes some hick who needs the money will find it. So, it’s deceptively simple but it is simple once you figure out the meaning of each clue. So, if one clue is hard to find the rest are hard to find too. But he also said to stick to the first clue till you are solid on that. At least from that point, one has considerably narrowed down the area of search. But apparently just finding the right starting point wont even tell one for sure if it is the right one. What I’m trying to figure out is, how that happened, how did some find the approximate area, without being sure they were within five hundred feet of the treasure. Unless, perhaps someone get there from a different clue.

    • Are you referring to the video where he says a child might have an advantage (paraphrasing), and “don’t ask me to explain that?” If so, my impression was that he was talking about searching outdoors, not deciphering the poem. But I could be wrong. Did he ever say a child could solve the poem itself?

  4. Seeker sense I am going to stop commenting for a while just thought id comment on wwwh – it doesn’t matter if you walk or drive you have to go to wwwh there is no other way around -wwwh – it puts you on the right road to the clues and where the tc is – its a way to get you off the road you are in – and in to the right one

  5. I believe the poem is a legal document. Have you figured out the name of the poem? That is a huge clue!!!!! and a word that is key!!! Sound familiar???

    Begin it where warm waters halt is the first clue, but not all of the first clue!!!

    The first clue is:
    Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down,

    The reason for this is because of what ff said about punctuation and since there is no comma you must take the whole statement.

    I believe the second stanza gives you 3 clues to one geographical location and not 3 different geographical locations. Remember what ff said about the first clue?.”You over simply the clues” “Look at the big picture” I Don’t think he meant look at the big picture as a map, but instead I believe this meant look at the big picture in reference to the poem. Does this all make any sense? By doing this you don’t even need a map, just a basic knowledge of geography. Sound familiar?

    Until next time I leave you with a quote:

    “If you want to go somewhere fast, go alone”
    “If you want to go somewhere far, go together”

    Okay so it is my quote from the side of my boat, but that is the way I am thinking and I guess if you can furrow my way of thinking than maybe we will find ourselves going to the same place. If you understand this than you can imagine how my quote would be a fitting end to Forrest’s poem to Peggy and tied to the treasure poem……… Can you see how it is all tied together? Use your imagination all you need is the poem. DO NOT TOUCH a map. Oops I think I just gave away a clue from the book. Good Luck in your search and stay safe!!!!

    I’m getting closer,
    just wait and see,

    BDM

    • ANYOT;

      You say: “The first clue is:
      Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down,

      The reason for this is because of what ff said about punctuation and since there is no comma you must take the whole statement.”

      Then why don’t you include: “Not far, but too far to walk.”? A sentence (whole statement) does not end until you get to a period… Or did I miss something in my English class?

      You then say: “By doing this you don’t even need a map, ” Why then does Forrest say: “APRIL 2014
      Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map”.f Sorry, I will take Forrest’s word over yours – JMO – JDA

  6. You are correct. Not far, but too far to walk is left out as a clue because of the analogy that statement is subjective. I mean to an ant a pond is an ocean, so you might as well ask me how deep is a hole? You get the idea.

    Your last statement about foot pounds, cubic inches, and so on, I agree that is Not needed, you don’t even need a map, all you need is the poem. A map will help you get from your home to the resting place, but not any closure to the treasure. Just my thought. This is why a kid could figure it out. If you knew the answer of the starting place than you would know how difficult it is to solve, but once solved how simple it is.

    • Well, you just keep thinking like that – going against what Forrest says, and I will not have to worry about you being the one who might find Indulgence. Good luck though. Your “New way of thinking” sure sounds like a lot of things I have heard here over the last 34 months – all coming from people who claim that they are the one that has figured it all out, only to come home with excuses – As I said – Good luck – JMO – JDA

      • I understand your point and you very well might be right. But you have to consider the what ifs. So with my way of thinking what if the first clue is: Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down.

        Looking at it as a whole statement I get: warm waters halt is a river and canyon down would be a valley. This could mean Still Water River Valley, oh that is in Montana who’s motto is “The Treasure State.”

        But indulgence is not there, I looked

        BDM

        • NWT or BDM – whichever –

          You first say that “You don’t even need a map” and then now you say: “This could mean Still Water River Valley, oh that is in Montana” – If you are not familiar with Still Water River Valley” (Which I am not familiar with) don’t you need a map? – Just sayin’ JDA

          • I have no idea what that is referring to? Was trying to relate the 4×4 comment, tried using the larger garmin gps? Then thought I wasn’t supposed to? Is that what is referred to as a map?

          • You are correct. I can’t figure out how to think differently like ff did when he had his thumb up and covered Philly, but I am trying. I believe WWWH might not even have anything to do with water, just another what if.

  7. Only nine clues, complete stanzas may be left out. Dangerous and tricky indeed. So, how are we to know? Who knows Forrest from his book? That trouble lies is that there are only nine clues. But witch nine? If you get the wrong ones they will through you far off. That’s why it’s been so tricky. That’s why nobody has figured it out yet. I believe I know. I know where indulgence lies. Waiting for me to retrieve her. Winter is upon us now,. Who will I see this spring in the hunt? Good luck to all in the chase. Sencerly Brian

  8. Jeez….I spent a little time with the above mentioned *crossword* idea last evening. The first thing I thought about was, trying to find a lead-in from TTOTC or the poem to even use this method to begin with. Without knowing or hearing from an insider that Fenn likes doing crosswords I was at a cross road right from the start. Never the less…I dug into the first sentence of the poem. I’ve got to say… my brain fried right there on the spot. I really enjoy doing difficult crossword puzzles from time to time…but I stink at conjuring one up from a poem someone else wrote.

    • Ken, I have attempted the crossword puzzle method as well, without success. I also tried something similar with Sudoku (because I thought the story about Sosuko was leading us to a puzzle of this type and also uses the number 9). I can certainly come up with a 9 letter starting point, or “key word”, but that’s as far as I get.

      • Sandy…that was a really smart idea picking out Sosuko and relating that to Sudoku. I would have never even seen that. Sudoku does use the *nine*… but again, nada for me. Is this just a clever distraction to mess with us for the winter?

        • Ken
          I think you’re right.
          A fun game of tiptoeing through the red herrings…while waiting for defrost season.
          Clearly
          Clueless

        • Ken: totally agree with your kudos to Sandy about making the Sosuko/Soduko connection. I couldn’t see Forrest’s African trader’s name without thinking of the ubiquitous newspaper (or United Hemispheres magazine!) puzzle, but I never made the 9 squares/9 clues connection Sandy did. She’s an elite puzzle-solver!

      • Sandy, what have you come up with as a 9 letter starting point, or “key
        word”? Neither/none of mine uses exactly and solely 9 letters.

    • Ken,
      I have similar problems… just getting started.
      Even without the idea of fenn enjoying crossword puzzles, we are told to study the poem because it contains clues [9]… so any method was open at the beginning of the challenge.

      Do we keep the poem in its original format / shape as it was presented to the public? If so, it seems we need to skip a line [letter in that line] here and there to have letters align up and down.
      Do we align the poem either to the right or left column? If so, why wasn’t the poem shown that way.
      Is a word that is key used in some manner?
      Do we have an option for diagonal or backwards words?
      Do we use only the line we think the clues are stack in or the whole poem?

      Simple concerns before even getting into the idea of working on it as a cross word solve. It a fun idea, but like you, getting started seems just as difficult as figuring out what WWH might be just by reading the poem.

      • I know Seeker… I melted at the first line. This morning I thought that perhaps if one were to use this method that each line from the poem would become a clue of sorts for 24 words. The problem then becomes deciding which words to use and then determine what the answer is. Finally…using an alternating…line one across, line two down. That’s when I decided to head down to my project building and paint ceilings. Nothing like some paint in the eyes to clear things up!

    • Crosswords. If say, the first clue is a geyser then you can take it (the word geyser) through the -Y- in canyon and down. And then… that’s as far as my brain can take it. Someone else take it from here.

      • What if the first clue is a waterfall? I read that water falling gets warmer
        when it reaches the bottom of its fall. Which could be during spring or
        summer also. As always, IMO.

  9. I can use the crossword thought and the message comes across- try here peel

    I also should go back and look in my stack of papers, but I had one that said go to earth and toes. I spent time on this direction after the marry the words together comment.

    The uptick to this approach is that you can take the notebook and poem in the car and work this angle in between running errands!

  10. this is the way i see it warm waters halt in every mention of it toftw a rest room toftc eyes crying bufflo steam maybe imconfused may be both books bathing, train depot
    moms cabin cant find location he knoas that tea with olga the big circle. a mystical solve no one can find he is sure of that below the brown worm burried im tkk about all capone they havent found him yet but cement may have been why.hinking long haul under ground makes it a long time to find thim i know what i know wich is nothing for sure like you id guess but i have spent a thought or two. go figure

  11. how the future has a chance when the present has no clue is beyond me im done good night to all you too bubba so why is it that i must go? if any one of us knew that we would cerntly try to out run time without a signuture. so we could also delay the enev or olev im done night all im looking for something yellow or brown i think, who knows

  12. I’m pretty new to the search and have commented only a few on discussions about “the home of Brown”, “architecture of the poem” (specially on the order of the poem), and “There’ll be no paddle up your creek”. This is my first comment on the discussion about “the 9 clues”.

    I’ve already mentioned about the order of the poem in “the architecture of the poem” discussion, that we have to rearrange the clues in the poem in the right order. If you’re interested to know how I’ve come up with the idea of rearranging the poem in the right order, please refer to one of the recent posts in there.

    Now nine clues in the poem are shown below which are arranged in the correct order as I see it. Again this is only my opinion. You don’t have to take or follow them. In the end the exact number of clues won’t matter in finding the chest, IMO, even though FF mentioned that there are 9 clues in the poem several times. The numbers in front of each line in parentheses show the stanza and the line in that stanza.

    1. (2-1) Begin it where warm waters halt
    2. (2-2) Take it in the canyon down
    3. (2-3) Not far, but too far to walk
    4. (2-4) Put in below the home of Brown
    5. (3-1) From there it’s no place for the meek
    6. (3-2) The end is ever drawing nigh
    7. (4-1) If you’ve been wise and found the blaze
    8. (4-2) Look quickly down, [your quest to cease]
    9. (6-3, 6-4) If you are brave and, in the wood, [I give you title to the gold]
    End 1: (4-3, 4-4) But tarry scant with marvel gaze, just take the chest
    End 2: (3-3, 3-4) There’ll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high
    End 3: (6-2) Your effort will be worth the cold

    The phrases which are not needed to the solution are omitted, and the lines you can consider after you find the TC are shown as the Ends from 1 to 3. I think the stanzas 1 and 5 are the extra logistics relating to the background information about the poem and the treasure hunt. The clauses within the square brackets are explained below.

    Now I’ll try to explain how IMO those are the nine clues rearranged in the correct order.
    The first four lines are obvious and most searchers got them right, IMO; where to start the search, where to look for the place, the distance to there, and where to put in. At this point I don’t care how you get from WWWH to HOB. Some searchers drove many miles (more than 10 miles or so), and some drove only a few miles depending upon where their home of Brown is located.

    Then the next two lines are also obvious and most searchers got them right, IMO, since the description of the path from that point on to the hiding place of the TC can be hard for most people or even dangerous to especially weak people and the end is not going to be reached right away easily.

    The next two lines are where my clues deviate from most searchers. As I pointed out in other discussion about the order of the poem, I’ve interpreted (3-3) and (3-4) are the clues which should come later since they are written in future tense. The next two clues are, therefore, the next two lines in the next stanza. But the second clause of the second line says “your quest to cease”. I interpreted this as an indicator for searchers to go to the end of the poem to find the next clue since your quest is almost at the end. I think that finding the blaze is not the last step. You have to do something more to actually get the chest. And that’s why I’ve considered (6-3) and (6-4) as the last clue. Once you get that right, then FF wants to give you title of the gold he hid.

    Now you have found the TC. So, don’t spend any time looking at the TC, just take the chest and go. I think I know why he said to hurry to take the chest and go. Because (according to the clue) you have to be brave and, in the wood, to find and get the chest, but some other people (who may be in close proximity to the scene) may be suspicious if they see what you’re doing.

    Then the two lines left out in stanza 3 now become the last steps after you find the TC and return back to the home of Brown (or the put in point). Now since you have 42 lbs. on your back the return path will be also “no place for the meek”, but luckily you don’t have to paddle, just walk the steep path (“water high”). The actual walk will be doubly hard since the path is steep and you’re carrying heavy load on your back. If the path to the TC is the same as the return path to the put in point (as I interpreted that way), going down the path to the TC may not be as hard as the return path. Since we are retrieving the TC and coming back along the trail with heavy load, but FF was going down the creek with the heavy load (actually half of the load at a time) to hide it there.

    — MajinKing

    • Two trips to his car, may not be the full distance of the hidden tc. What if he took one trip from his car with a raft to the put in, and then returned to his car to get his backpack, then returned to raft at the put in. Just two very short trips to get started. Traveled by water, then exited the raft, taking a short hike with his pack to the hiding place. This would certainly make it easier on an 80 year old man. In one afternoon could be 1-4 hours. No paddle up your creek, don’t go up the creek, whether it is dry or wet.

      • Ok greg – You just added a bunch of carrying/lifting/toting a raft to the problems Forrest had. He has to drive to a parking spot – tote/carry a raft to the water’s edge (may be short or long) – tie off the raft – walk back to his car, get the loot, walk back to the raft, float the raft downstream – get out – tie it off again – hike to spot, hike back – untie raft and either carry it back upstream or paddle a raft against the current to get back to the place he put in – Wash, rinse – repeat. You sure made it a LOT harder – JMO – JDA

        • I am pretty sure Forrest only did something akin to walking between the car and the hide. This is based on the answer he gave to a person who asked him if he used any other mode of transportation other than walking. It was a response that you must derive the answer from, but the answer was there, IMO, all the same. And JDA, you continue to be my favorite “responder” with your straight to the point, no BS answers.

  13. most put ins you can get pretty close with the car, small raft 20 lbs, I have seen videos of FF at 80 and he seemed to be pretty healthy. No I don’t think he hiked 2-3 miles out over rough ground and then back. Remember no human trails are close. Every ones perspective is a bit different. To each his own.

    • You didn’t answer the question of getting back up stream twice. Why take a raft if you can hike along the shore – makes no sense to me, but, as you said, ” Every ones perspective is a bit different. To each his own.” – JDA

      • Also the poem says, “The end is ever drawing nigh.” Seems like the parking place to me. Then he says, “There’ll be no paddle up your creek, Just heavy loads and water high.” – Why a raft up a “no paddle creek, heavy loads and water high”? Justr curious as to your thinkoin’ – JDA

        • JDA sorry not going to give you all of the solve. Just trying to get people to think his trip that afternoon may not have been walking the total trip to his hiding spot and completely back to his car. Two short trips to the waters edge, then a longer easy float across or down slow water, easily paddled back. Again he said, no paddle up your creek. simply meaning paddling up a creek will not get you to the tc.

          • I am 99% certain he did not take a raft. One of the quote-masters can find this, but someone asked once: (paraphrasing): did you do anything other than walk. Forrest says: if the all the evidence were known, and I said yes, you would think I was prevaricating. And if I said no, you would say I was quibbling.

            Break that down. If all the evidence was known. Ok, so let’s pretend we “know” he took the raft. But if he says yes, we sure as heck wouldn’t say he was prevaricating.

            It’s my belief, that quote lets us know that once Fenn left his car, he used no other mode of transportation. However, he may have crawled, waded, walked on his hands, rolled down a hill, but absolutely did not take a horse, trolley, raft, or other means of transportation other than by his own human volition.

            Just my opinion. There are smarter people than me here.

          • I just visualized Forrest frolicking through the forest with the TC and then rolling down a hill to hide it. My kids would be all over that if that was a necessary mode of transportation to reach the treasure.

            Rolling down hill => Must have fun while retrieving Indulgence.

            Thank you Karl, I like your points overall but loved that visual the most.

      • I never said any thing about stream, but lake, pond, or slow moving water. Just one trip across and one back to the take out/put in. I have gun hunted, bow hunted and fished, Missouri, Alabama, Canada, and Colorado, each with its own set of Challenges. I sense that water is a barrier, that’s why there is no human paths close by. Trail Heads are human paths, so you can disregard them as close by the tc.

        • OK, so we disregard the “No paddle creek – the Heavy Loads and Water high” and replace them with a lake, pond, or slow moving water – Interesting.

          Then you say, “Just one trip across and one back to the take out/put in” – but didn’t Forrest say two trips? So, are
          you saying that you are just adding a raft trip between “the END place” and the no paddle etc? – That once on the “far shore” – THEN Forrest did his two hikes? Are you adding the lake to match your solve, or did the poem lead you there? – Just askin’ JDA

  14. All FF said, was that he made 2 trips to his car that afternoon, never said both trips was all the way to the hiding place. FF said to not to take everything so literally, this means to use your imagination as if you were walking around in his shoes and his head. I learned along time ago, getting to focused will let you miss the obvious sometimes, apparently this has happened to some searchers already. So till next summer when I get to search my two possible solves. I may be not even close. I have a lot of training and experience in analyzing information. Both in written and spoken terms. I have been very successful developing these skills over the years. So FF and his poem is a good challenge for me. I enjoy the research and the twist and turns following the clues to complete the puzzle, and I don’t mean crossword puzzle. Follow the bread crumbs, but stay alert. and know anything is possible when it comes to dealing with people.

    • Hi Greg: any solution is fine, so long as you can reconcile it with this:

      “Dear Mr. Fenn, Once you hid the treasure, did you take the exact same route in reverse to return to your car? Thank you. ~ Tyler Y.”

      “Yes I did Tyler, it was the most direct route. f”

      • Hi, first post. I didn’t see the above quote related to Tyler before, but it adds to something that has peeked my interest. I think from the beginning of the trail to the chest, from WWWH, FF walked the whole way. Many of my initial solves start at WWWH, then you take a short drive because it is to far to walk, then continue on foot. I don’t think this is correct because of some of the quotes I have heard from FF. The above is one example, but also there was one quote I found from 6/20/2014. The question was, “When you hid the treasure, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area? Answer from FF. “The clues should be following in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowledge.”

        What this says to me is you can’t skip the beginning as part of the trip. If your instance in one potential option for a solve, the WWWH is the Firehole river ending in the Madison. The HoB being the Nez Perces creek which is about 5 miles south. There is a parking lot at Nez Perces creek. If FF was going to hide the treasure, he could skip the trip to WWWH because he would know he could park where the HoB is located. This would seem to go against what he said about having to use the same route as the clues back to his car, and that he couldn’t take a short cut to the location because he knew where he was going.

        What this all says to me, is you walk from WWWH to the chest. There is no driving involved. What do you all think?

    • Greg, you need to read some more before going out. One trip with the chest and another one with the contents. If any other type of transportation was involved, there will be no need for two trips.

    • greg ~’ All FF said, was that he made 2 trips to his car that afternoon, never said both trips was all the way to the hiding place.’

      Well, he kinda did when he said he took the contents first then the chest on the second trip. Told us he had to make two trip because it was to heavy .. 42lb. {summarizing different comments stated over the years, but the exact comments can be found}
      Point is two trips were needed, to hide, for all the contents [ 22 troy lbs of gold and stones]… and the weight of the chest. Otherwise, how do you get it all in one place?

      • Again if you could post the video source where he said that I would appreciate it. I heard him say, he made 2 trips to his car that afternoon, because it was heavy. That would be especially true if he had a raft and the backpack with the treasure. Remember there is no human path to follow, so I doubt that he walked more then a mile with 21 lbs or 42 lbs over rough ground. I just believe he had a method other then walking into the wilderness for a great distance, and he wanted a barrier so it would not be stumbled upon by some tourist, but by some one following the clues.

        • gs,

          I totally agree with Seeker, F made two trips from his car. The first trip was with the gold and jewels, the second trip was the chest, in that exact order.

          How about using tarryscant.com and enter “two trips” This is a very good site to do research.

          Just Say’n

          • Thanks for the suggestion, I have been to tarryscant.com and there is a lot of reading there. Picking thru all the distorted BS. I understand very few people are going to up any part of their solve or clues. So I try to stick to the poem, maps, and direct quotes from FF, where I can hear his phraseology, off the cuff. He has been interviewed so many times many of the answers are nearly the same. He also likes to drift to different stories to keep from giving up anymore clues then what he has already done.

        • Greg,

          Normally I have some info at the ready, this one comment I don’t. However, we have chewed it up and spit it out so many time in conversations… it shouldn’t be hard to locate. Even your post is slightly off, you said you heard him stay; ‘he made 2 trips to his car that afternoon, because it was heavy.’

          Those [ to start with ] were separate comments. only later did he combine them in other comments, Q&A’s etc. He first answered he made two trips from his car, and may have added in one afternoon, then he later stated, he walked less than a few miles, then stated, which items he took first and second. Then stated, he followed the clues when he hid the chest, also said in a Q&A, there’s no other way to his knowledge [ following clues ]

          My point is; there is more than one comment or Q&A or interview involved with the process that fenn tells us he took or did… you really need to look this stuff up, because it wasn’t stated all at once. And might I add; try and find the source of each ATF… don’t take my word or anyone else. There have been some very bad misquoting done by others, and you should check it out for yourself.
          Dal has many of them on this site, Media page, Forrest speaks etc etc. At the bottom of each page there’s a list of others; Mysterious Writings has a ton of them, JCM [ also at the bottom of the page and books by searchers ] as collected the most accurate information around w/ updates [ imo ]. Tarryscant as many as well…

          Ya just have to take the time and look…

    • Read the last line of this quote: Question posted 6/9/2014:
      Forrest,
      You said in the past that the chest is not in a dangerous place; yet searchers are searching along Cliffside’s, raging water, and other seemingly dangerous places. Could you please elaborate or qualify your statement in which you said” The chest is not in a dangerous place”
      Thanks
      Edward
      Edward, thanks for the question.
      The treasure is not hidden in a dangerous place in the normal definition of the word, realizing that there probably is no place on this planet that is safe under all conditions. Bloggers have quoted me as saying that a child could walk up to the treasure. I don’t think that’s an accurate quote because a three year old girl would have a problem without some help. Remember, I was about 80 when I hid the chest, and had to make two trips”.f

      You say: “never said both trips was all the way to the hiding place.” Sure sounds to me like he went all the way to the hiding place. I suggest a bit more research my friend – JDA

    • Seems no one has yet mentioned this one:
      “… I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.f”
      Full context here: mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-fenn/questions-with-fenn-archive-1/

      Enjoy.
      Joe

      • Hi Joe;

        Look in the archives Joe, It has been discussed until it was blue in the face. What is there that you want to discuss?
        1) He parked his car somewhere.
        2) He had to walk to the “Hidey hole”
        3) He was 79 or 80 so path walked could not have been too hard nor too far.
        4) He made two trips in one afternoon (12:00 – maybe 6:00 PM)
        5) Man can walk 2 – 3 MPH (at 79 or 80 pick the low end???)
        6) NOT in VERY close proximity to a human trail – So, part of
        trip was off-trail.
        7) Some time at site needed to transfer goodies back into chest and then secret the chest.
        8) Took a sandwich (maybe) Took time to eat it and enjoy the view (maybe) ???
        9) Returned to car laughing, and asking himself “Did I really do that?” (or something like that.
        10) Is asked about alternate mode of travel and does not answer directly – Just confuses the issue.
        11) Says he could have just taken a bike and thrown it in the Water High.

        So, where are we? This SEEMS to be all that we know, or think that we know.

        General consensus is that the hike is between 1/2 mile and a “few” miles – probably no more than 4 – 5. but probably less than 5.

        Thar is all I have put together – What are your thoughts Joe? – JDA

        • JDA,
          My comment was relevant to this comment from the top of this thread:
          “All FF said, was that he made 2 trips to his car that afternoon, never said both trips was all the way to the hiding place.”

          Since it had not been mentioned here, I made the comment as an FYI to Greg and to rebut his comment. I’m sure many of the comments alluded to or quoted above have been discussed ad nauseum.

          One meaning of “rebut” is “to oppose by contrary proof.” Of course, “proof” in The Chase is elusive and what we all seek, but I believe F’s “two trips from my car to the hiding place” is in stark contrast and an appropriate response to Greg’s “never said both trips [were] all the way to the hiding place” – but that’s merely my opinion.

          Joe

          • Joe, if we go by his statement it is true that he could have made two trips from his car to a place with an alternate mode of transportation. He could have taken the mode of transportation with him on one of the trips as well A boat, a bike? Doesn’t seem that likely but he does leave the window open for that possibility.

  15. FF clearly states only where an 80 year old would go alone, and no steep inclines. FF himself said not to search in dangerous places, like mines, tunnels or caves. I have watched hours of his different videos, be safe during the search is his basic instruction.

  16. Thanks to Jda for the audio post of FF, one for the contents and the second for the chest. But J A Kraven post where FF was asked if there was more then one mode of transportation in Hiding the treasure, he again repeated 2 trips to put it in, but hedged on whether he used some other mode then walking to hid it. The poem is to get a searcher there, that does not mean he followed the exact same route to hide it. He said, he knew for a long time where he wanted to hide it. There may be a shortcut that is differs from the poem, that he only knows about?

    • Greg ~’But J A Kraven post where FF was asked if there was more then one mode of transportation in Hiding the treasure, **he again repeated 2 trips to put it in,** but hedged on whether he used some other mode then walking to hid it.’

      “Edgar, your wording of the question prompts me to pause and wonder if I can answer it candidly, yet correctly. Were all the evidence truly known, and I answered in the positive, you might say I was prevaricating, by some definitions of the word. And if I answered in the negative, you may claim that I was quibbling. So I will stay quiet on that subject. Thanks for the question anyway. f”

      *he again repeated 2 trips to put it in,** I don’t see where he stated this in the answer. It’s not wise to add something that just isn’t there. imo

      **but hedged on whether he used some other mode then walking to hid it.’** I don’t seen an answer to the question at all… he implied; if he answered one way some would think this [or that], If he answered another way, they would think this [or that]… so he’s not answering.

      • I’ll add a thought, Greg.
        Personally, “put in” seems to mean dock or reach land. All depending on which definition someone want to use… to put a boat into water seems more like a launching.

        So, If we begin it where… the term “put in” could mean at WWH, line of thinking. Because “put in” can mean ‘Interrupt.’
        If WWH is meant as waters that are interrupted is some manner [ like a change in movement ]… the “put in” could mean hoB is very close to WWWH or Just below WWHalt or water that are interrupted in some form.

        Basically saying; no need to get into the waters that ‘halt, or “put in” at WWH you need to be below whatever hoB refers to -and- Not Far, [ after that interruption / halting of the waters ]. Take it in the canyon down might be where the waters go, but that’s too far to walk.
        fenn may only be “describing” where hoB is; at or near WWH and not far away, but the waters keep ‘going’ an that’s too far to follow. “Halt” and “Put In” may have more in common then most would like to think.

        Just food for thought….

        • Seeker, WW waters H, plural being a key. The warm waters instantly becomes cold. TIITCD, NTF, not exact, but in the area, but, put in below the hoB, 3 hints here, put it, as launch or to beach a water craft to load or unload, h not being capitalized, but B is. No doubt hoB can be argued many ways. NPFM not a dangerous place, but a place some might shy away from. EIEDN as being pulled along. If you don’t stop at the end on the left, you wont be able to paddle backup your creek. Also at the end heavy loads create, water high. This is where boots on the ground starts for me, for this is where all the given clues so far appear to lead. From this point you need to be there to verify the rest of the clues. There have been many searchers that have been wrong, and it is ok if I am wrong too. Not the end of the world as some people seem to think. The chances of finding it first time out is small, but one never knows till one tries. Then plan B, backup and do it again with what you learned the first time. It is like life, you can take it too serious or have fun with it. Some are concerned about there being smart people trying to solve this. I have learned there are all kinds of different smarts in this world. But have the right combination of smarts is what’s important. I truly hope some one finds it, so they can give FF his bracelet back he thinks so much of.

    • Darn Greg;

      Do some research before making statements that can be disproved in an instant.

      You say: “The poem is to get a searcher there, that does not mean he followed the exact same route to hide it.” This quote says the exact opposite:

      Question posted 6/20/2014:
      I have a question for Mr. Fenn:
      When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?
      Thank you Curtis
      The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege”.f

      Please Greg. Take your pack off, do a bit of research, and THEN come up with a solve. It can NOT be done in a few days. There is no hurry. You probably have all winter – Just a bit of advice from an OLD searcher who once thought it could be solved in a few days. I am now going on 34 months. Some have worked on it for 8 years – Just sayin’ – JDA

    • Hi Greg,

      There might be a short cut (or “long” cut depending upon how you look at it) to the hiding place long time ago used by Indians, and Fenn might have used it, but I don’t think there is a short cut now. If you’re brave enough you may be able to make one yourself.

      Zaphod73491 quoted the following in his comment earlier. “Dear Mr. Fenn, Once you hid the treasure, did you take the exact same route in reverse to return to your car? Thank you. ~ Tyler Y.”

      “Yes I did Tyler, it was the most direct route. f”

      And I’d like to add the following idea, what if it was the ONLY route when FF hid his chest, and the same route is the ONLY route when he’s coming back to his car?

      Also you said that “I sense that water is a barrier, that’s why there is no human paths close by. Trail Heads are human paths, so you can disregard them as close by the tc.” But your quote is not 100% right. Fenn said “There isn’t a human trail in VERY close proximity to where I hid the treasure.” You missed the very important word “VERY”, which means that there could BE a human trail in close proximity to where Fenn hid the treasure.

      You see what I’m getting at? IMO there is a human trail close up to the hiding place of the TC, but not VERY close, which also means that humans can get to the treasure chest very close (I mean within only a few feet), but don’t know that they are so close to it. I think Fenn is very smart in hiding his chest, right under everyone’s nose.

      This is my two cents anyway.

      — MajinKing

    • A hiking shortcut wouldn’t affect a good solve.

      The last time FF parked a motor vehicle before hiding the TC where it now
      is, he may have chosen to park in a substantially different spot, compared to where he might expect someone with a perfect solve to park. All IMO.

  17. Yes he leaves the door wide open, skip, run, crawl, pulled or dragged. Did he follow the instructions in the poem to get to the hide, or is that just for searchers. Did he take a different route then the poem suggest?

    • Greg: “To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f”

      • Thanks, I recall you saying you rewrote the poem several times to get the words just right. But I also recall you saying you knew for a longtime where you wanted to hide it. But life has showed many times over there is always more then one way to get there. I would not lose any respect for you if at 80 you had to an easier route to hide it then the directions in the Poem. This has been going on since 2009-2010 and much has been written in many sources. and hours of video. I am very grateful for the challenge, since I am living a simple life in Aguachica, Colombia. A small town with limit activities, and I am the only American living here. Both my parents are gone and we are taking care of her parents, which is important to her. The mail service is non- existent, so I can not get things by mail. The UPS depot is in Bogota and that is a 12 hour bus trip one way. So I am doing as you said, the Poem, a good map and some online search are my tools. Maybe next summer we will get to come to the states so my wife can meet my family, and take 30 days to follow the clues. It will give me a chance to show my wife the grandness of our great country. God Bless

      • by Jenny Kile · August 13, 2018
        Dear Mr. Fenn, Once you hid the treasure, did you take the exact same route in reverse to return to your car?”
        Thank you. ~ Tyler Y.

        Yes I did Tyler, it was the most direct route. f Forrest seems to agree – JDA

  18. I don’t encourage anyone to assume that the small place where FF parked a sedan last — before transporting the trove to its present hidey place — is where a searcher should park.

      • Hi Greg,

        You mentioned that NO one here has solved the poem. I’m reminding you that NOBODY EVER has solved the poem. If anybody did, the chase might have ended already, unless the searcher who has solved the poem and found the chest decided not to publish the finding in public.

        I forgot to mention one thing in my previous comment. In my current solve there is only one mode of transportation, walking, is needed from below HOB all the way to the hiding place of the chest.

        — MajinKing

        • Hi Mking, one of things in the poem is the line at the end, I give you title to the gold. Sounds to me as it will be necessary to contact ff or his trust to collect the gold. He says the key is in the box, is the title the key? He says when the finder opens the box he will laugh. Did he do that to protect ownership rights to the treasure? This would give good cause for the last stanza, and completion of the puzzle.

          • Greg,
            I believe this line may be regarded as legal jargon if the ownership of the chest was tested by the courts. There are 3 or 4 lines that could be used for legal purposes to build a case for how the chest could be vested for ownership. I do not it think applies to a trust or other financial vehicle regarding ownership or where the gold is actually secured. IMO
            Fenn said “….And if you can find the treasure chest, you can have it.” and I believe he means exactly what he says with that quote.

        • It’s optional what transportation to use in most of one’s search trip.
          I prefer to drive, substantially from the “put in” place to the thing
          that I’m treating as a “creek”. Good luck to you. All IMO.

  19. I think we tend to give the nine clues, a kind of chiseled in stone, hard facts persona. Because that kind of thinking, provides a sense of security, a sense of tangibility, some thing that we can hang on to. But, maybe the nine clues, paint a more subtle picture, something more in the realm of imagination. In TTOTC, on page 136, he quotes Millay’s poem. “Safe upon the solid rock the ugly houses stand: Come and see my shining palace built upon the sand” He says “that’s where I’m most comfortable”. Some place lacking, a sense of security, predictability, and tangibility.

    • I like that you bring this up James. Thinking about various imaginative ways to solve this thing is not wasteful thinking. Keep at it.

      • Hi Aaron, Mr. Fenn has said , that there are subtle hints in TTOTC book, to help unlock the clues in the poem. But, I’ve never read or heard him say, that the subtle hints were actually, descriptive of the nine clues as they appear in the poem. I think most of us have read the book, looking for references to warm waters, homes of Brown, ect. and maybe there aren’t any. IMO

        • We do not know how subtle the hints are. Along the same lines we do not know how far is too far, how close is close priximaty, or how deep a hole is.

          • Hi Aaron, I’m thinking that the subtle hints may just be a word, here or there in the stories, that doesn’t seem to have any relation to the clues in the poem at all. Words that we just read over and past, that when first read, don’t cause a second thought.

          • He did say look for things that catch in your mind, paraphrasing. There are many things that catch in my mind when reading the book.

    • James, FF has lived a lot of his life out on the edge, as have I. Those who have lived that way don’t find much life in 100% security. We need a challenge something to look forward to wind our rubber band, for the next exciting thing to come along. Sometimes we find it necessary to go as far to create something exciting, if we are not being challenged in away that stimulates us. As FF would say it makes us weird to some people. We like the KIS principle, but we want to make it real.

    • Neal W,
      That looks like the currency symbol for the E.U.
      Not sure how that would have anything to do with the poem.
      I don’t rule anything out at this point.
      Safe hunting.

    • Is there any place that symbol SHOULD have been?
      I saw a different symbol in rocks, but it probably wasn’t “laid out” by people.
      It was pretty big, and within about 1/2 mile of my specific (fine-tooth-comb)
      search place. Made me think of pineapple pizza. All IMO.

  20. This may be a bit of a stretch, but the semicolon at the end of “the end is ever drawing nigh;” has always stood out to me. Then I looked at the first stanza, the last line ” hint of treasures new and old.” gave me the idea of grouping the clues into 2. One group with each clue ending in a comma, and the other group clues ending with a period.(and one question mark) Since “the end is ever drawing nigh;” has the semicolon (a period AND comma) it is put in both groups. I think the key is to choose the right group. So the 9 clues would look as such:
    (Group1) 1. Begin it where warm waters halt, and take it in the canyon down,
    2. From there it’s no place for the meek,
    3. The end is ever drawing nigh;
    4. There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
    5. If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
    6. Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
    7. But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
    8. The answers I already know,
    9. So hear me all and listen good,

    (Group 2) 1. Not far, but too far to walk.
    2. Put in below the home of brown.
    3. The end is ever drawing nigh;
    4. Just heavy loads and water high.
    5. Just take the chest and go in peace.
    6. So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek?
    7. I’ve done it, tired and now i’m weak.
    8. Your effort will be worth the cold.
    9 If you are brave and in the wood I give you title to the gold.

    As I believe all the clues describe actual locations, I think the key is to choose the right group and follow in the order of Group 1 or Group 2. Sort of like “choose your own adventure” books I guess. So not only do you have to solve all the clues, You have to find the right order. Architecture indeed! Could be nothing though. Just another way to look at this brilliant poem.

    • I like it, but everyone would choose “group 1” because ff says the first clue is wwwh.

      maybe it is both, one is a general solve, other is a specific solve.

    • Craig.
      i dont think its a matter of choosing the right group. one group leads to the treasure and the other to the chest.

      maybe.
      imo

      • maybe yes maybe no .Possibly the Golden goodys are in the Daniel Boone Museum in Georgia. I was born in the Woods in Athens so what do I know. imo

    • Hi Craig, I had the idea of putting the things in the poem that were tangible in one group, and the things that were subjective in another group, and see if anything stood out. Deciding which things are subjective, is also subjective, but maybe it would spark an idea?

  21. What I think the 9 clues are:

    1. wwwh
    2, NFBTFTW
    3. PIBTHOB
    4. NPFTM
    6. TEIEDN
    7. TBNPUYC JHLAWH
    8. Blaze
    9. In the wood.

    No separate groups, just 9 separate clues.

    Just Say’n

    • Good List Charlie. I see it a bit differently though:

      1. Biwwwh, Atiitcd, Nfbtftw.
      2. PibthoB
      3. Ftinpftm, Teiedn
      4. Tbnpuyc, Jhlawh
      5. Iybwaftb, Lqdyqtc, Btswmg, Jttcagip.
      6. Swiitimg, Almtfats?
      7. Taiak, Iditaniw
      8. Shmaalg, Yewbwtc.
      9. Iybbaitw, Igytttg.

      Stanza #1 is a prelude.

      Just how I see it – JDA

      • JDA,
        Pretty much how I see it except that stanza 1 is necessary to figure out the starting point so calling it a prelude might not be giving it it’s proper weight. Maybe just a semantic quibble.

        Also I think you won’t be able to say for sure how to split things up after #5 until you’re BOTG in the correct area. To me almost every line seems like a separate idea and I’m hoping that whatever they refer to will be physically grouped together if I find them. The physical groupings would then determine how I’d parse them into clues. But what you have listed seems like the best assumption until more is known.

        • Thanks JW;

          I happen to believe that it is the words “In the wood” that are the key to finding the correct wwwh, and NOT stanza #1.

          “As I have gone alone in there…” tells us a couple of things:
          1) The TC (Indulgence) is “IN” some place – a place that we do not yet know, but this prepares us for what KIND of place to look for once we get there.
          2) The place is small, only one person can fit at a time.

          “And with my treasures bold…”
          1) What are treasures? The contents of the bronze box? Memories? The out-of-doors, the mountains, the creeks, the forests?

          “I can keep my secret where…”
          1) Only Forrest knows where Indulgence is secreted, it is up to us to figure out where this “secret” place is.

          “And hint of riches new and old.”
          1) Be on the look-out for hints (from Forrest) as to how to solve the riddles of the poem.
          2) Some of these hints have been around for a while, others will be new. Some hints involve the past – maybe even the ancient past – Others relate to our present time.

          Keep in mind all of the above, as you “Begin it…” JMO – JDA

    • I’ll play. Clues:
      1. line 5, wwwh
      2. line 6, canyon
      3. line 9, object
      4. line 13, landscape, the blaze, found with ‘marvel gaze”
      5. line 16, object
      6. line 17, direction
      7. line 20, distance
      8. line 22, the spot, coordinates
      9. line24, time, distance, direction, goes with the key, the chest
      key. line 9, from right to left
      key word. line 17, is the distance the ‘key” figures out to.
      Clue lines per stanza plus key line=
      0, 5&6, 9, 13&16, 17&20, 22&24 = 0,2,9,29,37,46= 0,2,9,2,1,1 plus key line 9, Altogether is book of days: 29220. The amount of days in 80 years.
      When you add clues vertically, you get 2442, or 66, or FF. Same number from the coordinates, 2442.
      Just 9 separate clues and a key that stand for something and add to the story, with his signature. 🙂

  22. Forrest had a lot of second chances over the years.

    1) at his job at the cafe
    2) at the art gallery with the color advertisements
    3) shot down twice in the Air Force

    Sometimes it seems like he is giving us a second chance with the clues.

    Any thoughts?

  23. I still believe the nine clues are the nine different sentences, otherwise we have a heck of a lot more than nine. My opinion of course.

    • FF: The first clue in the poem is begin it where warm waters halt. That’s the first clue.

      Looking at the poem, I see that the where warm waters halt language is the start of the 3rd sentence in the poem.

      Care to elaborate on how those 2 facts don’t figure into your 9 sentences = 9 clues position?

    • There can be no clue in the first stanza *and* simultaneously remain true to Forrest’s statements that (1) the clues are contiguous, consecutive and sequential, and (2) “Begin it where warm waters halt” is the first clue. Therefore, 9 sentences = 9 clues is refuted by counterexample. (There is also Forrest’s suggestion that it “sounds like” there are 3 or 4 clues in the second stanza, yet there are only two sentences there.)

  24. I also believe we only need the first two clues (sentences) to solve the poem. The statement that Forrest made about the girl in India applies to all of us. He gave us seven extra clues knowing that we can’t start our journey from the top of a mountain, we have to put in below the home of Brown. That would have been to far to walk. IMO.

    • Hi Louie,
      I think even though there are nine clues, there are only three locations we have to identify to find the chest.
      — MK

    • Huh? 7 extra clues? How generous of him!

      Louie, the poem is perfect and none of it is extra. I feel like you are saying that we can just throw away much of the poem after the first 2 sentences. You need every word of the poem to solve this masterpiece.

      If you want to throw away the other 7 clues, can you give them to me please? I don’t want them touching a garbage can. Thanks!

      All IMO

  25. Before you even start to formulate a solve, think of the Chase from a logistics point of view. You are looking for a 10” x 10” x 5” metal box hidden in an area as large and wild as the Rocky Mountains. How the heck are you gonna do that? Really. Whatever your strategy, you had better know exactly where you are going or this is just a walk in the woods.

  26. My Thanks To Forrest F. Well sense he won’t tell me what the HOB is so I can
    go right to it. Thanks for helping parents get there kids off the video games and
    cell phones to see natures art. You are rare.
    I feel it is time for my chase to end but may 10 little fenns take my place.
    What you did is good. You won’t see Sony or AT&T giving some parents an out,

    Well that’s what I think about your chase.
    I never meet you or talked to you but learned something of you.
    Ending my chase with a thanks Forrest.
    On Dal’s site I guess….
    Mark.

  27. I’m musing a bit more this morning about this quote from a Mysterious Writings Q&A (7/2/2014):

    “I regret that I use the word I too much when I write. I could fix my sentences if I’d just take the time to do it but I tell myself that no one will read what I say anyway so why should I worry about it.f”

    I think that this is a clever and humorous sentence by itself, but going back to the poem we can see that Forrest uses the word “I” quite a bit; six times in total: twice in the first stanza, thrice in the fifth stanza (if you count “I’ve”), and once more in the sixth stanza.

    In a roundabout way of thinking based on the quote above, could this imply that Forrest spent a greater amount of time and attention on crafting the 2nd, 3rd, & 4th stanzas than the others? If so, could this imply that the nine clues are all contained within these three stanzas?

    I’m not entirely convinced of this myself, but yet another thing to ponder over.

      • I got tired of vacillating on where the clues lie, and just 3 days ago made a short & sweet review of punctuation and parts of speech. Executive-like, required to decide even though the best available information is incomplete, the nine clues for me are as follows:

        1. Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down,
        2. Not far, but too far to walk.
        3. Put in below the home of Brown.
        4. From there it’s no place for the meek, the end is ever drawing nigh;
        5. There’ll be no paddle up your creek, just heavy loads and water high.
        6. If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
        7. Look quickly down, your quest to cease,
        8. But tarry scant with marvel gaze,
        9. Just take the chest and go in peace.

        This was mainly just a way to feel I accomplished something, and is subject to change. It made perfect sense the other day, but reviewing it now I see some inconsistencies in the logic I was attempting to use as a constraint. But it’s interesting my logic at the time contained all clues within the stanzas you mention.

        • I think there are 9 clues that lead to the treasure like a road map. Problem is that you need BOTG to get past the second clue. Something at that clue will tell you he has been there, many times. Now, completely explore the place and make it known like your backyard. Then you have to unravel all that was learned in conjunction with the book hints, flavor with some imagination and the poem morphs to reveal its final form. He said in the end, the clues come faster. So there must be much along the way to “embellish” the hints so they seem like clues. Every word is a hint and every clue an experience!

          • My clues are a bit different:
            Begin it where warm waters halt- specific location
            take it in the canyon down- specific canyon
            Not far, but too far to walk- must drive
            Put in below the home of Brown- specific location
            There’ll be no paddle up your creek- creek very close to HOB
            heavy loads and water high- ?
            the blaze-?
            worth the cold- must get into water/cross creek or river or both….FF hid the TC in June. The only logical cold in June is cold water.
            in the wood- hidden under wood or logs.

            To me, the other things are just good hints.

            As with other solutions, the above clues fit into probably thousands of canyons in the Rocky Mountains and may be incorrect. But they fit our solve and they are enough for us to go on.
            Having faith in a solution is the 99.9% motivation to making the move for BOTG.
            Hope this helps. Good luck and stay safe.

      • Lisa – Yes, “worth the cold” and “in the wood” are the two pieces in the last stanza that I’ve never felt comfortable in ruling out as possible clues! But maybe they aren’t! But maybe they are!

    • 1st stanza – 1st person
      I have gone, I can keep . . . and hint

      2nd stanza – 2nd person
      (you) begin it . . . and take it, (you) put in

      3rd stanza – 3rd person
      it’s (it is), the end is drawing, there’ll be (there will be)

      4th stanza – 2nd person
      you’ve been wise . . . and (you’ve) found, (you) look down, (you) tarry scant, (you) take . . . and go

      5th stanza – 1st person
      [why is it] I must go . . . and leave, I know, I’ve done, I’m (I am)

      6th stanza – all three, 1st 2nd and 3rd person
      (you) hear . . . and (you) listen
      effort will be
      you’ve been
      I give

      So “archi*text*urally” (to coin a word)-

      1st person
      2nd person
      3rd person
      2nd person
      1st person
      all three

      The imperatives (“you understood” as the subject of the verbs) are commands or directions, so naturally look like clues that can be “followed precisely”, especially in stanzas 2 and 4.

      The 3rd person in stanza 3 is used to provide what sure looks like a description.

      The final two lines of stanza 6 are The Contract (if/then):
      1 – the conditions to be fulfilled – if *you* are brave and in the wood
      2 – the compensation or reward – then *I* give you the gold

      I agree with you, Blex, that “in the wood” seems like it has to have some value at least in describing where you are and/or what you’ve done.

      Jake

      • Hi Jake,

        Nice write-up. That’s a great way to tackle the poem, I think. A little logic goes a loooong ways (IMO).

        Regarding the 3rd Stanza. I get a little more movement out of those words than a third person classification might suggest (IMO).

        By the way…I really like your newly coined phrase “archi*text*urally”, good one!

        Good luck to you,
        SRW

        • *** *** *** ***
          SRW observed – “Regarding the 3rd Stanza. I get a little more movement out of those words than a third person classification might suggest.”
          *** *** *** ***

          The 3rd person classification is strictly grammatical – all the subject/verb combos in the stanza are 3rd person.

          I do get what you’re saying about movement therein, but to me it seems more like that of a panning camera observing the scene.

          Kate had a great observation recently about the string of adages in that 3rd stanza, and the odd “marking time” feel they imparted.

          I knew exactly what she meant as soon as I read her post, though I’d never before put my finger on it as neatly as she did.

          Almost like

          “A rolling stone gathers no moss,
          A watched pot never boils;
          He ain’t heavy, he’s my brother,
          The check is in the mail.”

          Jake

          • Jake,

            I do see how Stanza 3 reads like a description. I think it reads like a description because it is a description (IMO).

            But I think there is more to it than that.

            I believe that Stanza 3 nudges the searcher forward, in a meaningful way, assuming that a searcher has correctly solved the previous clue(s) and has arrived at the correct place (IMO).

            SRW

          • Hey Jake, Kate, OS2, Lisa, E.C. anyone else who might be interested-

            ” If you are in the right spot something you probably haven’t thought about should be obvious to you.” Rumor has it this phrase is what was recently deciphered and made public from Jenny’s book.

            ” Talk about the one good clue searchers could think of themselves, but haven’t. ” This is a comment that F gave to Jason over on MW.

            So….I was thinking about Kate’s comment re: idioms, cliches etc and follow up comments from others including you.

            When we see the BLAZE, or are close to it, will a common idiom come to mind? Such as….”It’s hotter than BLUE BLAZES” or somesuch? When looking at one particular “Big Picture” I can think of several “spots” that particular phrase might apply to.

            Just musing….

          • Sandy – And that Treasure Island Map that RLS drew, with the legend in the corner, surrounded by two mermaids. The distance was “3 Englifh Miles”. Those stretched S letters look like an f.

            Maybe it was 3 miles to Baker’s Hole from Forrest’s house on Boundary on his bike to go swimming?

            Now I’m hearing Long John Silvers saying, “Shiver me timbers!”

            Cold.
            Brave.
            Wood.

      • J A Kraven, here’s a different take on the stanza’s. Imo, some words in just the 2nd and 3rd stanza’s have more than double entendre. In the 2nd stanza I count 20 different meanings. 3rd stanza – 23 different meanings, and they all fit perfectly. That’s as far as I’m going with this.

      • J A Kraven
        3rd stanza “up YOUR creek”
        I would change this stanza to 2nd person seeing it’s about you.

        5th stanza “for ALL to seek”
        I see this stanza about Fenn and us.

        Stanza 6 is all about Fenn and us.

        I would eliminate the 3rd person label altogether in the poem because we know who wrote the poem. Some of us here did this similar study a couple/few years back and it does stick out as stanzas 2, 3 and 4 seem to be all about YOU.

  28. I learned different ways to see things from my failed solve. IMO.. And take it in the
    canyon down not far but too far to walk.. is one line and one clue. So walk a trail that
    goes down to a canyon that is to far because you only go a little ways and never to
    the canyon as on a map. I just saw the one guys scam article. IMO terry scant with marvel gaze means. when you find the chest before you haul out of there .
    stop and remember him and his place.
    See things put in stories that are really at the spot. And take off.
    My solve had differences. Like my blaze is just the first white thing you see leaving
    waters high. Down hill to my right. Just the first white thing but happened to be the spot
    too. There was no finding a blaze and digging under it at all. the poem didn’t end there
    but you are at the spot. Mine it is between two objects. hear and listen as example.
    And possibly in the water or just the woods. flashlight good idea as sun my be
    in clouds. sandwich for grizzly. or four cans of bear spray better idea. the home of
    brown is up in the mountain dens. they just come down to the area.
    So some lines are together and it goes to the end of the poem for me. 16 lines 9 clues.
    I can not even put that together only just follow the poem. And two big things are.
    After BOTG you may be wondering where you went wrong. And you need to be prepared
    for extreme danger. I had thought it is where Donnie and Forrest had the time of there
    life or almost lost their lives. I really thought that but I see its not true but you really
    need to be prepared. And only search in good weather time of the year. my failed solve
    is several feet under snow and more to come for now..
    I am no longer searching. I still find people searching interesting.
    The obsession of wanting to solve it is gone for me.
    The commercialization is taking place. Hopefully no more deaths happen.
    There is a high chance to me it is still there. But may be a few more years yet.
    Good Luck.

  29. Forget the poem for just a minute! You need a viable strategy for finding an itsy bitsy teenie weenie 10” x 10” x 5” box hidden off-trail (or possibly even buried) in an area as vast and wild as the Rocky Mountains. You are searching for a needle in the proverbial haystack. This is a perplexing logistics problem in spite of the poem, IMHO. OK, Whadayagot? Howyagonnafindit?

      • He should have worded it “don’t go where I couldn’t go when I was 80 years old”.
        I know a bunch of 80 year olds that are in better shape than me 20+ years their junior.

        • You missed the point. This has nothing to do with age. This is about understanding what you will need to find the treasure, what information the poem must possess.

          • The bottom line is he said he was 79 or 80 years old when he hid the treasure.
            DON’T EVER FORGET THE POEM!
            You are missing the point. THE POEM.
            Without the poem, you are fizzling out and got nothing.

          • I’ve always been unclear about knowing, you could ask yourself is that when you actually have it in your hands or when you know in your mind we’re it is.
            Then the question is what is knowing and how do you prove that knowledge since knowing is considered knowledge. Maybe knowledge is formed from imagination created from knowledge hence making them the same thing.
            Maybe learning how Mr. Fenns imagination works is just as important as his knowledge and the combination is one big giant beautiful painting that some day maybe, maybe everyone to see clearly.
            I hope that before time starts it’s next cycle I get the chance to experience more of it.
            What a ride.
            Ok I got carried away. Sometimes I just get out of control.
            GH

      • Can you imagine all Fenn treasure hunters showing up in droves in the Rockies this spring clad in yellow polka dot bikinis? Haha. Yep that could work. It’s just not for me. But hey, looks good on you huh?

      • http://www.americana – Ditto. Except I am going to be paddling a “brave and in the wood” canoe, like a Shoshone Indian in the Lewis and Clark party, fighting against the “heavy loads” on my fly fishing line, and working my canoe to get across the “water high” of the late Spring runoff. “There’ll be no paddle up your creek” applies, because I couldn’t see any feeding into what used to be Brown’s Hole. And there aren’t any Beaver dams diverting those meandering Double Omega curves, either. I’ll get out to take a phone pic, load the bronze chest into the canoe, then I will “go in peace” as Forrest suggested in the Poem. Aho.

        He was right in that Santa Fe Interview. Google Earth doesn’t take you down far enough.

    • Your age is showing (but I don’t think you ever wanted to hide it. Your
      age, that is).

      Do you ever worry about offending someone when you say “box”?

      I occasionally associate the word “tornado” with “twister”.

      After all the urging, I do THINK. For example, I think I’ll visit a place
      where I have time to think and read some names.

      As always, IMO.

  30. So I’ve got my 9 clues but some time ago I stumbled onto a few hints that inspired me to rearrange my last two clues. A slight adjustment if you will.

    Because of this, I’ve spent the last few weeks looking for additional hints that might assist with those last few clues (clues 8 and 9).

    I must admit, those hints have been much harder to come by than some of the earlier clue hints. (IMO).

    Is it just me, or has Forrest been more elusive about dishing out hints for those last couple of clues, specifically clue 9. I’ve found two hints that may reference to clue 9 and that’s it (IMO).

    Question for everybody: I’m wondering if other searchers, who are at this point in their own solves (working clues 8 and 9), are you experiencing the same thing? A reduced amount of information and/or hints to work with in regards to those last two clues?

    Just curious.

    All IMO.
    SRW

  31. Woods by the masonic graveyard in Colorado…

    Begin it where the warm waters halt- This is the Indian hot Springs in Idaho Springs Colorado. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Idaho_Springs,_Colorado “Local legend is that the name of the city derived from annual visits to the radium hot springs made by a Native American chief and his tribe who journeyed there each year from Idaho to bathe in the magic healing waters.” Here the word “halt”has a double meaning as in halting a disease (such as cancer)- curing or healing.

    And take it in the Canyon Down- You literally go down into the canyon- (clear creek canyon) into the Argo tunnel, which runs from Idaho Springs to Northwest Central City. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argo_Tunnel

    Not far, but too far to walk- Although you aren’t going far, the tunnel is closed and not open for people to go inside- you can’t walk in it.

    Put in below the home of Brown- the tunnel is literally below (underneath) the home of Clara Brown, who was “was a former slave from Virginia who became a community leader, philanthropist and aided settlement of former slaves during the time of Colorado’s Gold Rush,” and made her home in Central City https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Clara_Brown

    From there it is no place for the meek- The tunnel is extremely dangerous if you were to walk through it. “The tunnel operated until January 1943, when miners working on the Kansas Lode near Nevadaville blasted into a water-filled mine working, and a large slug of water flooded out the tunnel entrance, killing the four miners.[4] Shortly after the accident, the federal government ordered all gold mines in the US to shut down”

    The end is ever drawing nigh- If you traversed the tunnel, you would get closer to the end; Go someplace near the end of the tunnel.

    There’ll be no paddle up your creek- You can’t paddle up the tunnel

    Just heavy loads and water high- The high water is a result of the water draining through the tunnel. Here, loads refers also to “lodes” the gold and minerals mined in the many gold mines connected by the tunnel.

    If you’ve been wise and found the blaze- refers to the masonic cemetery in Central City, south of the end of the tunnel. https://www.findagrave.com/cemetery/2203110/masonic-cemetery The word wise is chosen because of the masonic saying “A wise man hears one word and understands two.” (https://futureofworking.com/48-famous-masonic-sayings/). The “blaze” refers to the Blazing Star, an important masonic symbol (https://www.masonic-lodge-of-education.com/masonic-blazing-star.html) which can be found on some of the graves in the cemetery.

    Look quickly down, your quest to cease- If you are standing in a cemetery and look down, you see not only the end of your immediate quest for the treasure, but also the end of your metaphoric quest of life.

    But tarry scant with marvel gaze- Blaze that turns icy grave warm… T? not sure…

    Just take the chest and go in peace- Rest in Peace.

    • Doug, hate to disappoint you but I have done just about all you said years back. My clue solves were potently the same and have even search some places along Clear Creek, one had a outcrop of a owl face. There is a couple key points you are missing for both Idaho Springs and Central City that are chase related. Guess if you have this info you can maybe figure out what they are.

      Not sure if you have actually searched either area or you are just writing your armchair findings. If you have done some research on blogs you know there have been a few others also in both areas that had also posted their solves in the past.

      Good luck,
      Bur

  32. For those that think you have to do something where the clues are or references to something at the places or we are missing something.

    1. Begin it where warm waters halt – Fenn tells us where to start and yes, you will have to go into the water to verify. “Your effort will be worth the cold”.

    2. And take it in the canyon down – Fenn gives us direction where to go from where you began.

    Not far, but too far to walk – It’s about what you shouldn’t do and that is walk.

    3. Put in below the home of Brown – When you’re at the bottom of the canyon Fenn tells us we should put in below his HOB. Just put in and no direction where to go in this clue and not necessary which way because once you put in, you will be taken by the flow of the water in it’s only direction. (in your mind)

    4. From there it’s no place for the meek – From where you put in you will be heading to an end point or a boarder where you are going through “no place for the meek” to where it ends.

    5. The end is ever drawing nigh – From the end point of “no place for the meek” there is another place that is near where you have to draw out of the river and follow the directions of nigh.

    6. There’ll be no paddle up your creek – Fenn is telling you to go up this creek, it’s your creek.

    7. Just heavy loads and water high – Fenn is telling us there are heavy loads and water high up your creek.

    8. If you’ve been wise – been wise

    9. And found the blaze – the blaze

    • And of course, that is your interpretation of the poem Jake, and not fact – but thanks for letting us know what you think the correct solve is – 🙂 JDA
      P.S. Mine (of course) differs in a number of places – 🙂

      • JDA,
        Above you said this: ” “The end is ever drawing nigh.” Seems like the parking place to me.”

        What makes you think this is a parking place and how do you reconcile this?
        I don’t see anything in this line of the poem that would indicate anything like this. Care to share or just be a bear.

        • Hi Jake;

          I am traveling down a road – yes, I am driving. I have just left my Meek area. The next line of the poem is “The END is EVER drawing nigh.” I cross a number of boundaries (EVER = more than one) – I run out of road the END has arrived.

          Physical reality matches the poem. No, I am not force-fitting the poem to match my area. The words of the poem led me to this END place. Road ends, gotta park – Simple – JDA

          • You are traveling down a road driving (from WWWH) down a canyon, so I have to assume that your “put in” spot below HOB is a turn on the road after going canyon down and then continuing along this road where you turned in (put in) along the meek area.

            You drive through the meek area until the next line in the poem is “The END is EVER drawing nigh.” which happens to be the end of the road and a parking spot.
            Did you ever think that may be one of those boundaries you crossed may be the end?

            Hey, It seems pretty doable and I don’t see any wacky stuff going on here with this part of your solve. The only problem I see is “From there (HOB) it’s no place for the meek” seems to have a way point which you have not mentioned.

          • Jake;

            You only asked about my END parking place. I saw no need to talk about every line of the poem. You have it pretty correct when you said “You are traveling down a road driving (from WWWH) down a canyon, so I have to assume that your “put in” spot below HOB is a turn on the road after going canyon down and then continuing along this road where you turned in (put in) along the meek area..

            You then ask: “Did you ever think that may be one of those boundaries you crossed may be the end?” Nothing at these boundaries that would indicate an “END” – so no, I never gave it much thought.
            You then state, ” The only problem I see is “From there (HOB) it’s no place for the meek” seems to have a way point which you have not mentioned.”

            Not asked – not mentioned. After my “Put in place” (change of direction while driving) I pass through a definite “No place for the meek” area – found between a couple of my boundaries. JDA

          • Well JDA,
            I figured you would elaborate more on the 9 clues seeing that is what this page is about.

            Anyway, I think your interpretations of these few clues seem to be in line with the poem without crossing the line of over complication of the situation for the stipulation that leads to capitulation satisfication where we get jubilation. I don’t know what that means but it sounded good.

            The snow is melting fast. When you gonna get there again and let us know about you next vacation?

          • The short answer to your last question is “I do not know”. I am dependent on my search team – It is up to their schedules, health availability, etc. Time will tell 🙂 JDA

          • I liked you little— whatever it was – Thanks for the compliment – 🙂 JDA

    • Hi Jake,
      You haven’t mention anything about HOB. Also I see one problem with the order of the clues. How come the clues 6 and 7 comes before the clues 8 and 9? I can see that the clues 6 and 7 is written in future tense while the clues 8 and 9 is written in present perfect tense. It doesn’t make sense in light of Fenn’s saying that the clues should be interpreted in consecutive order. They are consecutive as to the position in the poem, but they are not consecutive in terms of time. You see what I’m getting at?
      — MK

      • You obviously didn’t read what I wrote MK.
        I mentioned HOB.
        The clues are in consecutive, contiguous order.

        You say: “clues 8 and 9 is written in present perfect tense.”
        Are you reading the same poem?
        “been” past tense.
        “Found” past tense.

        Side note: the only thing that is perfect about Fenn’s poem is we are all here still talking about what we think we know about it.

        You said you didn’t spend any money but I believe you did already go on a trip.

    • Wait What?

      # 1 I’m at the sign that says; “you are here” and do what? Go in the water?
      # 2 in a direction , but don’t walk… ok, so I’m in the water apparently, because # 1 says I have to go in the water… to verify I’m cold? I don’t know why I have to be cold.. it’s a nice sunny day [well in my mind].
      # 3 has me going into the water again? When did I get OUT of the water to put back into the water to let it take me down stream? *in my mind*?? Hold on.. wait a sec. stop the train… am I in the friggin water or not???
      # 4 ‘from where I put in’ I go through the no meek’s place.. So I must still be in the water, I think… Am I in a boat? wearing flippers? Taking a tire tube down the lazier river? Is there a water craft rental place near by or did I lug something with me. Dang I need more “planning” than I thought.
      # 5 OK, I’m still in the river [water] [ still not know when I actually do that [ #1 or # 2 or #3 ] and drifting to the end, apparently. Where’s little Billy and Sally and the wife with the other kids at this point? or I’m I alone ‘in there’?
      # 6 The river ride has an auto stop, and I get out and go up a tributary of the river I just floated down. Ah! dry land finally.
      # 7 I’m at HLnWH… how far did I go from the lazy river, up Seeker’s to get loaded?
      # 8 “if you’ve been wise.” OK truthfully, I’m dumbfounded because I don’t know how long I was in a river, where I get into a river, how far I travel to the end of a river, or Why Bother to get in, IF I know there’s a border I have to be at in the first place that My creek is at… at that border or end… from the maps I married the clue too.

      # 9 I somehow have been wise and find the blaze. Now what?
      ~I’m alone, the kids and wife are at WWsH waiting in the truck, and I have to take half the weight and travel the same route back??? Um, and I’m doing this whole route ‘twice’… does this lazy river ride come with a motor boat to bring me back UP the river?

      Just one question: Why can’t Billy come and carry the other half of the load so I don’t have to rinse and repeat?
      Dang kids are so lazy in this day and age. It his mothers fault… she babies them too much. Buys them Idiot phones, play-station, Xbox, I pads, lap tops, some WEEE thing…
      Sorry, I digress… Good right up!

      • Well, since you put it that way – I don’t think I wanna play anymore 🙂

        Loved it – Thanks for your humor – 🙂 🙂 JDA

      • Why can’t he, when you can surely do anything when you put your mind to it.
        Maybe it’s just about the game.
        Times ticking as it does.
        As a gladiator once said. But not yet.
        GH

  33. Speaking of the 9 clues, has anyone seen this yet? Someone sent me this link on facebook. Very strange to say the least. My friend says he thinks it has something to do with figuring out what the 9 clues are. I can’t make head nor tails of it myself. This Yon Povi’ lady seems really strange. I haven’t been on the facebook groups so I don’t know if this has been going around but it’s bizarre.

    https://yonpovi.wixsite.com/mysticalnewmexico/post/design-a-stunning-blog

  34. speaking of considering the “what if’s”, what if the 9 clues were actually “impossible” to devise from the poem and book (and a good map more recently)?

    just as a “what if”?

    let us consider if it were impossible, what would that situation look like?
    what would a known and very good “salesmen” say if they found themselves in that situation (or started to suspect that was the case). how would the ATFs look as time went on?

    it is difficult but not impossible seems like a reasonable statement, but in our “what if”, I think that it is also reasonable that a good salesmen would also say it in the “what if” situation.

    just in case searchers did not have enough anxiety, I thought I would throw that one out there 🙂

    after all it is a possibility in a long list of “what if’s”.

  35. Did Forrest actually say that each of the nine clues refers to a different geographical location? If so, can someone please direct me to where he said this.

      • Thanks 42.
        The reason I ask is because I keep seeing posts from people who claim Forrest said each of the 9 clues is associated with a different geographical location. I’d like to know if Forrest really said this.

        • MM, regarding your question, “did Forrest actually say each of the nine clues is associated with different geographical locations?”

          No. If he had said that, the statement would be included here on Dal’s blog in the important information of what Forrest has released in public forums.

          • Okay, I stand corrected, big time.

            Please read Double A’s comment with a direct quote from ff regarding the geographical location of each clue.

      • This comment seems to suggest that he did.

        I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a map to the treasure. F

    • “I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map.” Forrest Fenn quote from Mysterious Writings Six Questions with Forrest Fenn Feb 4th, 2017.

      mBG

  36. MM and aa,
    It stands to reason that every distinct clue location would have a corresponding geographic location. Yet, IMHO not every clue is presented using geographical references which adds to the difficulty in understanding the poem. It always comes down to having the correct WWWH because after that initial success, a “canyon” needs no distinct name, neither does a creek, etc.

  37. Thanks all. It sounds like each clue is a different geographic location. My next question is did Forrest ever say that each clue gets you physically closer to the chest? I know some searchers have assumed this.

  38. I had an interesting idea on how to identify the nine clues. What if you use the punctuation of the first stanza as a pattern to identify the clues? So the pattern would be no punctuation, comma, comma, period. If you use that pattern, you do get nine clues, which looks as such:
    1. Begin it WWWH
    2. And take it in the canyon down,
    3. Not far,
    4. But too far to walk.
    And then quite a bit of the poem is skipped until you get to the next no punctuation line:
    5. So why is it that I must go
    6. The answer I already know,
    7. I’ve done it tired,
    8. And now I’m weak.
    9. If you are brave and in the wood
    I remember Forest saying he made deliberate punctuation errors in some of his books just to see if anyone noticed.

    • Hi NoName6: a good theory, except that Forrest seems to have dashed it on the Hint of Riches (THOR) forum last year (8/14/2018):

      “Fenn clarifies – as discussed in chat – Does the semi-colon have specific meaning for the correct solve? If so, what?”
      Forrest: “No. f”
      “Does punctuation have significance in solving the poem? If so, what?”
      Forrest: “No. f”

      • Hey zaphod, thanks for commenting. I didn’t know Forrest said that. He did make some punctuation errors in the poem though. Whether they were on purpose or not, I don’t know. For instance, there should be a comma after “From there.” Also, there should be a period after “meek” because that is a complete sentence. As is the next line. There should be a period after nigh. And why would he use a semicolon? They are so rarely used. The most common place you see them is in dictionaries. Another oddity I noticed was how the WWWH line and the NFBTFTW lines kind of relate. Warm can mean not far. And an archaic definition of halt is to walk with a limp or be lame. (Too far to walk)

      • Hi again NN6: I wouldn’t say there are any punctuation “errors” in the poem. Punctuation isn’t quite like spelling or grammar — the “rules” are loose. In your example of a missing comma after “From there,” I’d probably use one, but I wouldn’t say it’s required since its absence neither alters the meaning of the sentence, nor adds clarification. And while “From there it’s not place for the meek” is indeed a complete sentence, if it’s not a complete thought then some meaning could be lost or de-emphasized by ending the sentence there. He chose to run that line together with the next. Indeed, the whole stanza as presented may be intended to emphasize the connectivity of all four lines.

        “And why would he use a semicolon? They are so rarely used. The most common place you see them is in dictionaries.”

        I actually use semicolons all the time; however, I have found that many do not — probably because they don’t know how to use them appropriately. 😉

        The most important factor to keep in mind is that this is a poem. There are no punctuation rules for poems, and that may be one reason Forrest chose to deliver his clues using one: freedom from the stuffy rules of prose.

  39. Hi, There was one comment by FF that I think could be important to interpreting the poem. My quote source is from this website.

    https://www.chasingfennstreasure.com/fenn-quotes-page-3

    There was a question from a girl in India, she asked if she could solve the clues from over there, presumably without traveling to the USA. FF said “The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues”

    What that says to me who is researching on the East Coast, is that only the first two clues can be found on a map or online through research. The other 7 clues are only visible from the ground when you are there.

    Before this quote, I was hoping to map the whole route to the chest location from home, and then go and check the solve. I think based on this quote, the best I can do is get to clue 2. I would add that in some of the same quotes on the blog I mentioned, FF says no one has given him a correct solve past clue 2, but people have been within 500 feet of the treasure. It isn’t 100% clear that this means clue 2 is within 500 feet of the treasure, but I think it might. What do you think?

  40. What I find puzzling is that the searchers that had the first 2 clues correct were within 500 or 200 ft. That means clues 3 thru 9 are within the last couple of hundred feet. Let’s assume HOB is clue 3 or 4…
    Are we to believe that those searchers couldn’t find anything to match HOB within that distance?

    • ..easier to believe you got the facts wrong, sorry to say.

      I don’t think searchers who got the first two clues were the same searchers who were within 200 ft.

      • Agree Muset. IMO none of the searches that solved first two clues were within 500 feet. They were within 1 mile though!

  41. Yes Muset,
    I previously said the same thing, but I was corrected by Aaron who cited a quote from f which said in short that the 200ft searchers who got the 1st 2 clues correct didnt realize they were so close and failed to get clues 3 and 4..
    Look @ Aaron on the HOB thread..

  42. You must travel there alone during a full moon.

    Okay I came across an old Comanche Legend and I need your help. The story goes like this: The Place we cal “————-” also said to be the site of an old Indian legend. The story tells of the ghost of a Comanche warrior that will allegedly lead visitors to the site of hidden gold. However, like many ghostly legends, it has a caveat – the warrior will only appear at midnight on an evening with a full moon. Some versions also say that the visitor must also be alone for the Comanche to appear. One report tells of a visitor who made the trip at midnight with a full moon alone. However, when the Indian failed to appear, he returned to his pick-up truck disgusted. However, as he began to leave, he looked in his rearview mirror and was amazed to see a warrior leaping from a horse into the bed of his pickup. But, when he turned around, nothing was there.

    Has anyone else heard of this? Has anyone gone there to give it a try?

    I am thinking after everything else I have to at least try and see what happens

  43. Consider this Q & A:

    From MW
    Question posted 6/25/2014:
    Hi,
    Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years?
    Thanks ~Ron
    Thanks Ron, thoughtful questions
    The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia….

    Of course the clues did not exist when he was a kid because he created them within the poem as an adult. But note how f says “MOST of the places…” I draw two possible conclusions from this. Either at least one of the places to which a clue refers is a man-made structure that didn’t exist when he was a kid, or the place physically existed but it was not an officially established or named place at the time of his childhood.

    Based on this quote, it does seem possible that at least one place to which a clue refers is a man-man structure, though I do not necessarily believe that. To clarify the other possibility, perhaps one clue refers to, just for example, ABC National Park. Everything within ABC National Park was there already, but the government or whomever had not yet drawn a border around the area and named it ABC National Park. One could say that place did not exist when they were a kid and be truthful, despite everything in the park always having been there.

    Thoughts?

    • In continuation of a debate I am having on another thread, my thought is that HOB is the one place that didn’t exist when FF was a kid. I believe that Brown is poetic for the chest itself, thus the home of Brown didn’t exist when FF was a kid because such did not come into existence until he hid the chest in that exact spot much later in life. All it takes is for 1 place to not have existed when FF was a kid to satisfy the ATF you mentioned, then defining HOB as I have satisfies the ATF about not associated with a structure.

      IMO

      • In the poem, Brown’s Descent, the Brown Home is the starting place and also the goal. The route down is direct but the subsequent ascent is circuitous and fraught with peril. The route of the ascent switches back and forth as the direct route is unachievable. If I was to design a thought challenge after this poem I would make the initial clues easy and the subsequent clues progressively more difficult.

        It ends where it begins. With the easiest and most difficult clue at the palace where warm waters halt and why.

        • Interesting post, Lug. I, too, have made the argument that WWWH is both the beginning and end of TTOTC. The difficulty, methinks, is recognizing the how of it all.

        • Lugz,

          After all out exploring…”Know” the place for the first time?

          The idea of switching back or circling back was answered. Is there know other way to discover the start for what it could be?… also the end at the same time…

          • You will not know that you began at the correct place until you follow the clues to the end and arrive there, thus confirming that you indeed had the correct starting place.

          • Lug, it almost sounds a lot like what I have, except for switching back. I see by a solve that a spot is given, with that a path to that spot would be given, in which a start spot would easily be identified. Along the path are clue referenced from the poem which can be found. Kind of like if you have the first couple of clues, you are half way there.
            With these nine clues, which I think is the worst bit of info that f has given us, searchers automatically go for trying to solve clues that they have no idea about, instead of trying to solve the poem.
            You haven’t posted as much as you use to, but have always been a voice of reason, with your thought, knowing f said that the clues get easier instead of harder, do you think it is out of the question that the poem solve and solving clues are two separate things, or do you see that they are different and that solving the poem will give the answers to the clues? Just curious.

          • Poison that’s a good question or thought.

            Two things.
            1 Solving the clues
            2 Finding the treasure.

            What I believe today is that I need to solve the clues and then marry them to the map. I don’t believe you follow one clue to the next in nature. I believe it’s a thought exercise. When Forrest says the clues get easier he means because have solved the first clue shrinks the playing field. The subsequent clues are followed one to the next, they are refinements if the area. Seeker and I have discussed this before. Beginning with a large area to search in and honing in on the location of the TC. I am not beginning at WWH and moving to TC. I am solving the clues and the final solve confirms that I have indeed selected the correct WWH etc.

            But yes, solving the clues and finding the treasure are two different tasks for me. They are not concurrent.

          • I believe Lugnutz is correct about how the clues unfold. But what if the nine clues were just nine single words? And what if there were a way to test it? I think there are only two locations you need to be concerned with, Little Firehole Canyon and Middle Firehold Cayon. Divide the poem in half from the line with the semicolon up and the second half everything below the semicolon down. Then associate Little Firehole Canyon with the top portion and Middle Firehole Canyon the bottom portion. Now go through the poem where Forrest said the clues begin and try to spell each word with Little Firehole Canyon. But the rule is you have to be able to take at least one letter from the three words of Little Firehole Canyon. So this gets rid of all the two-letter words off the bat since you need at least three letters to pull a letter from each of the three words in the location. So the first word for this method would be “halt” Then once you get to “There’ll be no paddle up your creek,” change the word to Middle Firehole Canyon with the same rules as above. If you use this method you get exactly nine words that follow this pattern. Little Firehole Canyon down to Middle Firehole Canyon is only about a mile and a half. So that would be my guess as to where it is, maybe just off the path on your way to MFC.Perhaps more of the poem will make sense once you’re able to see the location. It’s kind of a remote place. I could’t even find any photos of it on Google.

      • Bowmarc… I think your HOB concept has validity. Forrest has given the treasure chest 2 different names that we know of . If he refers to the chest directly in the poem with a “nickname” of sorts, then the nickname would be capitalized. If you look up “bronze” both as a descriptor and also the etymology of the word, you an see how ” Brown” could be a proper name reference to the chest. Much as a red haired person named “Jane” might be called “Red” by close friends and family. If I follow your thinking…

        Also, if you havent watched the recent Cowlazer/Kpro/Cynthia video it’s pretty interesting.

        • Thanks for recognizing this concept as plausible, SC. Yes, calling the chest Brown really made searchers look for every other possible meaning of Brown and why it is capitalized, thus ensuring that they will not find the chest because it is in fact the chest itself and not some historical figure, animal, etc. That assumes that you believe Brown = the chest, of course, and are willing to try and read the poem with that premise in mind while doing so. The important clue information in the PIBTHOB line then becomes the PIB portion rather than all the rabbit holes of researching other possibilities of HOB.

          I have not seen the video you speak of. If you could post a link that would be great.

          • Bowmarc…

            https://youtu.be/8AjfCQng7aA

            In answer to another question related to your post re: WWWH. The beginning and the end can be the same WWWH if you see the entire journey as one way in and the same way out. You park your car, walk a distance to WWWH, follow the clues, find the treasure and return to your car. I have learned from previous personal solutions that there was more than one way to get to the same final destination. In other words, someone else posted a very similar final spot, but got there another way. Obviously, they were both flawed solutions!
            For that reason, I now believe that the journey is one way in, and one way out. You park at WWWH. BLASHEMY!!! I also think Forrest has told us that very concept multiple times but dont have the quotes in front of me. The Blaze and HOB are possibly in very close proximity to one another using this theory.

          • Sally Colorado – If you start at the location of the Fennhaven Cabins on Boundary Street, drive your car through the West Yellowstone Entrance the 14 or so miles to my WWWH at Madison Junction, then turn around and come back to Forrest’s childhood Summer home…. Then the T.S. Eliot poem that says, “…you will know the place for the first time” applies to the Madison River in YNP. Where Forrest and his father loved to fish and guide others.

            That’s an out and back. And I will ‘waste’ the gas to go to my WWWH, fishing all the way back from there. Even though my home of Brown is that Big Brown trout in the landscape, across from the Barns Holes (located on a dirt road just O.8 miles inside the West Entrance).

            But, I could always ride a bike, like Forrest sometimes did. Like, when he rode all the way to Ojo Caliente to bathe.

          • Lisa, check this out. Surfthesky had me questioning my solve. So I decided to look elsewhere. It’s based on something that Forrest said during one of his older interviews when Too Far to Walk first came out. He was with Doug Preston and another author (can’t recall his name.) But they were asking Forrest what the unintended clue was in TFTC. Forrest points out the cover and says the picture on the cover was taken in the exact place he used to swim in the Firehole River. He then points out the the green along the border of the photo. I’ll link the interview if you want to hear the comment. https://youtu.be/EsTdZRwnydw if you don’t feel like watching the whole thing, fast forward to about 15:30. Anyway, I took this to mean that the green represented trees so it was in a clearing somewhere surrounded by trees. But what if the green represents the Green River in Colorado? So I started looking at maps up and down the Green River and found Little Firehole Canyon and Middle Firehole Canyon, which are right on the banks of the Green River. I’ll post a GE link so you can see it. https://earth.app.goo.gl/RswZmS So then I started trying to connect the words in the poem to this location, but wasn’t having much luck. Then I started thinking about the semicolon used in the poem. It’s always seemed like it has to have some specific function regarding the solve because they’re really not used much outside of in a dictionary between definitions. So that gave me the idea to look the word semicolon up. Semicolon; a punctuation mark indicating a pause typically between two main clauses that is more pronounced than that of a comma. So I had two locations to work with so I thought of dividing the poem in two, all the words from WWWH line down to the semicolon in one section. And all the words below the semicolon line in a second section. Then I associated the Little Firehole Canyon with the top section, and the Middle Firehole Canyon with the second section. Then I got the idea of taking the words in the poem and seeing how many words you could spell out using the two location names and perhaps these words were the 9 clues. So it would be well over 9 if you count them all because you’ve got small words like “and” and “if”. But what if the rule was you have to be able to take a letter from each of the three words in the two location names? If you use this method starting where the clues begin, you get exactly 9 words. Do you think this could mean anything? Maybe it’s in Middle Firehole Canyon.

          • NoName6 – Wow! Awesome thoughts!

            That semicolon reminds me of the road pull out in YNP at Cable Car Run, where I think Forrest ‘put in’ with his dinghy in the preface of TFTW. I have wondered if Dal captured that pic on the cover there. Dal isn’t saying exactly where that was. But Dal chose the place on the Madison River. It was not on the Firehole River.

          • NoName6 – Forrest has described swimming in the Summer underneath the ‘S’ in the Baker’S Hole name on this topo map:

            https://www.mytopo.com/maps/?lat=44.7055&lon=-111.0956&z=17

            He said the girls would change into their swimsuits in the willows nearby. I stood there, to think about where in the vicinity the bronze chest might be hidden, looking at the tall pines across the Madison River on the YNP boundary line. Is that where Dal took the pic on the cover of TFTW?

          • Lisa, yeah he does say Dal took the picture on the Madison, but after he points out the green border on the cover and say’s that’s the very spot where I used to bathe in the Firehole river. Watch the link I left. Scroll to 15:30 if you dont feel like watching it all. He either misspoke or let something slip.

        • Lisa, did you watch that link? I’m pretty sure he said Firehole River. Before I knew the area I thought he was saying Funnel River. LOL

          • NoName6 – No. Forrest says he asked Dal to take the picture on the Madison River, about 10 miles upriver from Baker’S Hole, where Forrest put his dinghy in. The turnout at Cable Car Run, located about 10 river miles upriver from Baker’S Hole, matches his description.

            Dal? Can you verify now???

          • NoName6 – Listen to the video link you posted at the point you suggested.Forrest mentions the story of the shadow pic being on the Madison River several times.

          • Lisa, he says it after telling the story about Dal taking the picture in the Madison. He said he tells a story in one of the books that river bathing is the best. He says it right after that.

          • Lisa-
            That place has been visited by thousands of searchers and a few tens of thousand fisher persons in the past few years. Just by looking at a photo of it, it is clear that thing was erected in the few days before before James found it. It would not have survived the traffic or winter snows of that location.

            Searchers need to understand that there are “blazes” everywhere and they need to be able to distinguish between what could have been used by Forrest ten years ago and would be able to survive for a thousand years and what would have been left by some passer-by or disgruntled searcher in the past couple of months or years…

            There are lots of folks out there who decide to try to fool searchers by leaving “pseudo-blazes” in popular search locations. These people derive immoral joy from the thought of fooling some searcher into thinking they just discovered the location of the chest.

            Be wary…and use your analytical brain when searching…don’t fall for the juvenile tricks of immature searchers…

      • HDNET World Report….”Who is Brown?”….and Forrest replies – …” if I told you that you would go straight to the treasure”…

        Brown = treasure chest???

      • Bowmarc – I had thought about Brown being in reference to the actual chest earlier on but abandoned that thought as we are told to “put in below the home of Brown”. So wouldn’t you have to know where the treasure is in order to “put in” below it? Which of course makes no sense. I’ve got to be missing something here in the thinking.

      • Bowmarc,

        Maybe I missed it, but if Brown equates to the chest, for this to work out to the idea of being below it Or put in below, don’t we need to know where it is at?

        I’m trying to mentally picture; I’m at a slightly elevated WWsH and traverse low to where I need to put in. My problem is… to be below the chest, I would need to know how to do that. Meaning a single route.
        I would also need to know how far below, not only hoB but WWsH, I need to travel. To do this, don’t I need to know where the chest is already at? or is there only one way down and/or on area to stop at?

        I mention these pieces of information because… IF they are not explained in the poem… they can only be explained/recognized while on site.
        What happens to the idea that all the clues can be found on a map?
        You know the one.. metaphorically speaking. So are you saying the clues can’t be discovered prior?
        Note: discovered is not the same as deciphered.

        I’ll give my thoughts but would like to hear yours;
        I think the clues can be seen on a map, but we won’t be able to know them for what they are from a map. Once it is known [clues].. they can be recognized from a map.
        Another-words; they are only seen properly as fenn seen them… in is memory of being there… and when he followed them to hide the chest.

        just curious…

        • @Seeker – I have given my take on how the clues are contiguous before, which goes against the grain of most other solve processes as usual, but hey, none of those processes have turned up ol’ Brown yet either so what really do I have to lose, right?

          The path of the clues looks like this:

          1-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2

          1 is obviously WWWH because FF has definitively told everyone such.

          Thanks to the video link above provided by Sally Colorado in which Cynthia, Kpro, and Cowlazers (I think I spelled everyone’s monikers correctly—just click on the dang link above! LOL) are talking about the canyon down, evidence in that video suggests what I have suspected all along—that clue #2 is the canyon itself. Not a small part of it, but the whole shebang, meaning end-to-end. Since FF has said that there is only one way to his knowledge to find the treasure, I believe that the canyon is closed on one end a la the spot WWWHATII. Such a perception makes the language of NF, BTFTW a descriptor of how the water is coming into the canyon on the closed end, so poetically and riddley (man, auto-correct does not like me typing that word, but I think everyone gets that I am trying to say this is both a poem and a riddle when I use that wording) we are told this isn’t walkable a la is a visual descriptor of the interaction of WWWH with the canyon on that “closed” end.

          That seemingly makes WWWH immaterial to the poem, but we must remember that FF preaches that it is absolutely a necessity, so we need to figure out a way to make it so because I believe FF tells the truth when he speaks about TTOTC.

          Well, we have the canyon, right? With two ends, right? And since there is only 1 way FF knows of to get to the treasure (and I will add safely to that statement because the closed WWWH end assumes surrounding steep elevation because of the definition of canyon, hence the real possibility of putting oneself into danger if you attempt a descent down same if you somehow found yourself above it—-dropped in by helicopter, perhaps?—-and that FF wants everyone to be safe in TTOTC), I see PIBTHOB as a command to start at the other end of the canyon instead, which makes sense because it is the safe(r) end of the canyon to enter. This makes the PIB language of that line a clue. As such, we are left with HOB, which must tie into what we think are the clues at this point, those being WWWH and PIB. HOB, to make WWWH necessary, must fall in between those 2 clues. This means HOB is something in the canyon. Without beating a dead horse, Brown could be the chest, making the canyon, inclusive of its WWWH end, the resting spot of the chest AKA the home of Brown (and a “place” that didn’t exist when FF was a kid). Making this connection necessarily forces us to walk the canyon from the PIB spot, which is the safe end anyway, so really the only way into same, towards the WWWH end.

          I hear the moans and groans already.

          But let me bring up some ATF information to see if they can be truthful with the concept I am presenting – they won’t be verbatim by any stretch of the imagination because I know you have a good grasp of them—others following this thread will have to do their own homework if need be and I recommend http://www.tarryscant.com:

          2 clues solved = WWWH and the canyon

          Maybe as many as 4 clues solved = Well, if you enter the canyon, you may have stumbled on/by some other clues because they must be in there somewhere because the canyon encompasses the chest as HOB and clues point us to the treasure according to FF himself—FF isn’t sure about the exact number because the chest hasn’t been found, but pictures, descriptions, and accounts of this telecast without the express written consent of the NFL—whoops, slipped into my part-time job as a announcer there, sorry—-ahem, but pictures, descriptions, etc. provided to FF by searchers may allow him to make this comment.

          2 clues solved and 200/500 foot comments (if your tolerance of associating ATF’s allows for these two pieces of info to be merged) = being at/in the PIB spot of the canyon can account for either of those distances, as can being at WWWH if you somehow found yourself elevated up in the WWWH end OR you walked the whole distance of the canyon to be at the bottom of the WWWH feature not realizing you were so close to the treasure as a result being at any of these places (on purpose or as an aberration).

          Not going to walk down in a canyon, back out… = The floor of the canyon we are entering is relatively flat from the PIB spot to the WWWH spot and you can park near the PIB spot to begin your walk into the canyon.

          Walked/went by the other clues 7 clues = you made it to WWWH/PIB canyon somehow, but then wandered away from it because of your historical interpretation of WHO Brown is, INSERT ANY OF THE REST OF THE CLUES HERE THAT ONE “SOLVES” FOR IN ANY OTHER AREA OTHER THAN THE WWWH/PIB CANYON

          Contiguous = well, the canyon is defined by its WWWH end and its PIB end so the remaining clues have no choice but to be touching because they are all parts of the canyon, as are the ends of same!

          I think you get the idea…

          I also rely on simple science that everyone should be able to relate to in answer to part of your question. Water flows from high to low. The water at WWWH flows to the PIB spot via the creek we are told about later in the poem, hence the PI spot is BTHOB “up” in the canyon

          The singular route, then, becomes ones travels along the canyon in the precise manner FF wants us to imagine via the rest of the clues present in that locale.

          We need all the ingredients to make up the picture that will allow us to marry our concept to a map, especially a viable WWWH feature that checks off each of it’s descriptors within the poem.

          Because the clues are encompassed by the canyon, the search area is relatively small without vast distances that need to be driven in between clues (Listen to Kpro’s Nez Perce solve in the linked video above where her canyon was 30 miles away from her WWWH and what FF’s response to hearing same was). “Your destination is small, but it’s location is huge” ring any bells here? How about the one where he says he walked from his car to the location twice in one afternoon?

          My last point here will be about what I have termed a redundancy in the clues. Since all 9 are encompassed in/of the canyon, nothing precludes a clue from referencing the same feature more than once. WH, as many have argued, could be in reference back to WWWH, which makes perfect sense since we are traveling into a canyon whereby WWWH is only safely approachable from the PIB starting point to said canyon where HOB (as the place where the chest is hidden because Brown = the chest) lies somewhere in between those two clues, making the line from the poem that goes TBNPUYC, JHLAWH line up correctly. Again, wandering off to search for an answer to the WH wording of the poem in some other remote locale other than our special canyon means you have left the poem and have no chance of finding the chest in the millions of other acres of land known as the RM’s.

          All of the above is IMHO as one weary searcher to another—none of it is any real big revelation by me as I have made scattered comments to these effects throughout my blog career here on HOD, just not so condensed.

          I’m ready for the usual critiques, a cheapshot or three, perhaps a couple of thumbs up, and a question or two for clarity, but I am not inclined to tie everything together for everybody beyond this post. As usual, use all, some, or none of what I have presented here in your own attempts to solve this riddle of a poem.

          Bowmarc

          • not only would at least some of the clues be in that “closed” canyon, a person would be driving by those clues/answers, or walking by them on their way to WWWH, which is sort of counter to what ff implied… it would seem?

          • If I wasn’t clear above, my apologies. All 9 clues are within that canyon, with WWWH at the far end and only accessible via the PIB end.

            1-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2
            <<<<<<<<<<<<< START HERE

            For all I know, this canyon could be near an airport and planes routinely fly by it for takeoff/landing at altitudes that meet the 200 – 500 foot parameters.

          • Bowmarc,

            This is not a new concept… LOL I have one for the Madison / Galiitan location… but one thing that bugs me is fenn’s more or less recent comment; {in part} he followed the clues in the poem when he hid the chest…

            Should WWsH be of a higher elevation then all the other clues, then wouldn’t WWsH need to be approach from one direction only?
            If not, then why would WWsH be the clue to nail down or we have nothing?
            Think about that… should there be anything near this said canyon that could be a plausible idea for any given WWsH… it can be used in the same manner… to simply go to the area we can enter said “canyon.”

            So my question would be… what makes the one and only WWsH to be the correct one?
            Example: WWsH could be a distant waterfall dropping into a canyon, or WWsH could be a lake near said canyon that drains into it.. or any other idea that pertains to water in or about the large canyon… So hypothetically, anything water related near the canyon can get us there: in the closed canyon.

            Because a closed canyon {box canyon} is one way in and out, right?
            There needs to be a reason for the first clue to be where and what it is for fenn himself having to go to it.

            Note: Again; he followed the clues “In the poem when he hid the treasure chest” Some like to argue; not all the clues… but we know there are 9 and to folow the “poem’s” clue, we need all 9.

            I have one answer to the dilemma, but I’m curious to your answer.

            There’s a couple of other thing I’d like to chat about, but I like to start with that question.

          • Bowmar… your conclusions are very similar to my own. I explored this idea in a search Cynthia and I did last fall in Yellowstone that she documented in a video. We both happened to be in West Yellowstone and she asked if she could search with me. I never revealed my full solution, mostly because I had discarded it by that point. I wanted to check out my theory that “it”, the journey, is one way in and one way out. And that you hike about a mile in to WWWHs. I satisfied my curiosity and this is my current approach to the riddle. Forrest told us to get back in the box, right? And although I dont have time on my lunch break to find the story, maybe on MW?…the one about a bear traveling in multiple directions and then the question from Forrest was “what color is the bear”? Anyway, if you watch the video on Cynthia’s blog I give some pretty good tips lol.

          • Not bad Bow, but you need to watch when you quote f. He didn’t say: “he says he walked from his car to the location twice in one afternoon?”
            I know you know what he said, and that this comment is your interpretation of his comment, but noobs might take you at your word because your process seems well thought out, and they may be following things you say not knowing that they are following your interpretation. That’s all.
            If I was to critique, I would need to see how this process equates into finding these spots. I would need to see how you use the poem to solve. So I can’t critique for now. Anybody’s solve is just as good as the next.

          • @Seeker – FF has said, paraphrased, that the spot where he hid the treasure was in his mind from the inception of TTOTC, there was no other place he was considering, and he was going to make it work for TTOTC no matter what, right?

            IMO, the simple answer to your question, then, is that it is the WWWH part of the canyon that is special to FF and we must take that into account when reconciling the 9 clues. All 9 clues add up to the correct canyon that we need to marry to a map once we grasp how they combine to make up the “big picture” of the canyon, especially the clues that define our WWWH portion of same.

            I think TTOTC starts with, and ends at, WWWH because we have to have WWWH to identify the canyon, and the canyon to lead us to WWWH. They are inseperable. FF’s T. S. Eliot quote fits nicely here.

            IMHO

          • Bowmarc,

            I get the premise… my thought is, whatIF there is more than one supply of water. Any one of them [ be it a lake, waterfall, creek {tributary} etc. can be construed as WWsH and still have some connection to the canyon.
            Which means, there is a possiblity of the wrong WWsH being found if all one needs to do is basically find the entrance to the box canyon.
            I’m just dissecting the check and balance of all this… the idea is good, imo, yet has a flaw to having the first clue nailed down or stay home comment.

            I also notice you clarified that WWsH is in said canyon at the far end. This kinda helps in my question… IF there is only one water{s} within said canyon… the theory makes a bit more sense.
            But I would have to go back to Cynthia’s interview [as of late] and review about: getting in your car and going to WWsH.

            That could be taken very literally, or as in your theory… the clues revolve around WWsH as a whole and driving to the location involves ALL clues being within the same place { fenn’s special place} But again, I would need to listen to it again… you might want to as well.
            There’s nothing wrong with check and rechecking the check and balance.
            Even in science, a theory needs to be repeated the with same outcome before it becomes factual.

          • @PI – Thank you for your comment. Somewhere in my presentation I did say that I wasn’t anywhere near verbatim in my paraphrasing b/c I know Seeker is up on ATF’s and any other searchers should use http://www.tarryscant.com to learn of the real quotes. I wrote it that way because I was talking directly to Seeker, butt (pun intended) thought to CMA by including a reference to a source of the full quotes. I should make my own database of ATF’s so I can just cut and paste them ver batim when I want to use such. Point taken.

            Filling in more details of this solve process isn’t likely out of necessity of preserving some of the key elements. If you use what I have already shared, you may come to an understanding of the poem akin to my processing of same.

            Again, thanks for commenting PI.

          • Bowmarc. Now that’s a horse of a different color- I like the way you think,
            Your ordering of clues reminds me of this “clues in the right order” quote by Forrest:
            “Well there’s about 250,000 people that think they have. I don’t know that anybody has told me the clues in the right order. I think part of the problem is, they don’t, they don’t focus on the first clue. If you don’t know where the first clue is, you might as well stay home because you’re not going to find the treasure chest. You can’t go out looking for the blaze and expect to find the treasure chest. There’s 10 billion blazes out there. So you have to start with the first clue and let it take you to the blaze.”

          • @Seeker – I’ve been mulling over your thoughts above. I’m not sure that it really matters how many water sources make up the WWWH location as an argument for why the “s” is present in “waters” can be made for it either being one source or many (“The warm waters of Lake Ontario in the summertime” indicates 1 source and uses waters / “The warm waters of the Great Lakes in the summertime” indicates 5 sources and uses waters). What matters is that it checks off all the necessary items that define it in the poem/on a map/by the book/how FF imagines it, inclusive of how it is contiguous to the other clues.

            In my view of the contiguous nature of the clues, they all are represented in a canyon of some sort (I say some sort due to the variety of geographical features that are “canyon-like” but called something else like gorge, valley, etc. as well as in recognition that this is a poem and a riddle so canyon could be poetic, etc.). On one end of the canyon is the WWWH spot. On the other end of the canyon is the PIB spot. WWWH is only safely reachable via the correct starting point, which is the PIB end. I say safely because the WWWH end is a dead end and to arrive at the spot where the water has traveled down the surrounding elevated landscape to start running through the canyon (described poetically as a distance that is NF, BTFTW) as the creek (NPUYC) mentioned in the poem, that elevated landscape is dangerous terrain and the likelihood of injury/death from entering the canyon from the WWWH end of same is great a la “It is not necessary to move large rocks or climb up or down a steep precipice…” & “Don’t go where a 79 or 80 year old man couldn’t go.” It is important to note that I concede that someone could already be up in the RM’s and somehow manage to arrive at the WWWH end of the canyon by coming down from the mountains into same (just like the water is doing), but reiterate that such is a dangerous proposition the way I envision the canyon, and such an arrival is likely not going to allow you to find the chest because you haven’t followed FF’s clues to get there because he needs us to enter the canyon via the PIB spot because, paraphrased, he architected a poem to make his special place work for TTOTC.

            I cannot speak to Cynthia’s comment as I don’t think I am familiar with it, but will go off from what you have provided, something to the effect of a comment to get in your car and go to WWWH. Well, WWWH is one part of the canyon that encompasses all the clues, so in some sense of the instructions, as long as you drive to the canyon, you are in essence driving to “where” WWH. That seems to be what you are stating in your 4th paragraph. If you could provide a link or the quote, that would be helpful.

            I, like you, use ATF materials as a system of checks and balances. I try to encompass as many as I can when conversing about a topic and don’t mind debating them.

            IMHO

          • Bowmarc…I think that the story “I Wish I Hadn’t ” in TFTW gives us an excellent illustration of a possible scenario for layout of the clues. Only we can’t use a tree, as Forrest did, to drop into the canyon. We have to find another way in. That may well be the PIB spot.

          • @SC – Catching up here with my responses:

            The only book I currently have is a signed copy of TTOTC. I plan on ordering the other 2 books soon and am hoping to get a doodle or two—wish me luck! 🙂

            I have not, nor do I have plans for any BOTG any time soon, so I am doubly admiring the fact that you have AND that you have done so with a “World Renowned Searcher.” For me it is a matter of meeting a threshold of certainty that justifies a trip from the East Coast. Unfortunately my interest in TTOTC is not shared by my family. I think attending a Fennboree or the World Series of Fenn could be possible because their locales might be enough to entice the family to join me…LOL.

            If you are interested in sharing your failed solves with me—since we seem to have a similar solve process—ask Dal for my e-mail, and I will critique them from my slightly differing perspective. I know you said they are posted somewhere, maybe even in video form, but it would be easier for me to highlight and comment upon if we communicated more directly. I’m certainly willing to view what is already published and do the same critiquing if you can point me to a more definitive online locale. Please don’t feel obligated to do either if it isn’t something you are interested in.

          • JDA, you know better then I do that we need exact.
            “and it was done in one” is a big part of that comment that leaves interpretation to the searcher. In one what? Trip or afternoon?
            It’s obvious that he was done on the second trip, but, he does not clarify if he is just stating the obvious or if he is saying afternoon. We have discussed this.
            My point is, without these words in the comment, there is no other interpretation then in the afternoon. It is not what f said and is not accurate. Maybe f wants us to think of two or three different interpretations, who knows, but if you want to just see one side of the coin, don’t let any of my comments stop you. And, by the way, you also don’t post as often as you use to, granted you use to outpost everyone 3-1, everything good with you?

          • Okay Bow, thank you.
            Again, I like the thought. If you use the poem to describe everything and not other outside info, I would like to read the finished product. After of course you do all your checking and tweaking.
            Actually, my spot is very much like your explanation. Instead of “box” canyon, I use “saddle of the mountains”. Same concept, but I get the back in the box thought.
            Also, it could be that the origin of this water source begins past all the clues but runs back down, through the canyon, to come to rest at a starting spot of where you have your first clue. Nothing from what I see is wrong with that. Be like there is multiple WWWH places but, where the flow ends would be the correct starting spot. Learned and found. Even more so when you think that f did not give the answer to our starting spot, that we must learn/find out where it is. That would seem like at the end of the journey to only find out that we are where we started.
            F has never told us where to “start”. Only where to “begin”. He said we need to find or learn where to start. The first clue could be after the 9th clue even, but where that first clue ends would be our start point and the beginning of WWWH.
            Writis, this is the concept of your comment/post. This would not be counter to what f has implied. In fact, it follows what he says pretty nicely.
            The only thing I would even question would be if it is possible to drive and skip clues to get to a later clue. That may be tough to do in a box canyon, if not impossible by definition. You would have no choice but to begin where you begin, and in following the path, would follow clues in order. I would even be able to see if in tweaking this thought Bow, that you come up with this:
            1-9-8-7-6-5-4-3-2-1
            <<<<<<<<<<<<>>>>>>
            But has the same concept/thought. It’s a good post Bow…

          • Disregard >>>>>.
            Meant to say I personally see this being possible:
            1-2-3-4-5-6-7-8-9-1
            start here>>>>>>>end of canyon.
            I know it’s not what you posted, but follows the thought of a box canyon.
            Time for checks and balances in this thought.

          • @Matt & PI – Thanks for the comments. I’ve been working on a response to Matt regarding the ATF he provided. It is waaaaaaayyyyyyyyy too long (about 5 pages in Word, and I’m not even done! I’m thinking I’ll write a book instead. LOL. Or send it to Dal for its own category. LOL)

            Then I got to thinking I was way off track and should seek to have Matt clarify the point he was trying to make by providing that ATF, hence this truncated post instead.

            Questions:

            #1 = In regards to the ATF provided, are you assuming that FF is saying that he has been told ALL of the clues, just not in the correct order?

            #2 = Did you provide that ATF because it appears to be at odds with another ATF by FF which goes like this: “And there are nine clues in the poem. And the clues are in consecutive order.”

            Thanks in advance for clarifying.

            Bowmarc

          • Bowmarc thanks for the heads up on the other thread.
            That quote from F always stuck out to me; people not giving him the clues in the correct order. I have also read him say many times that the clues are in a straightforward order in the poem. I tend to be ambivalent about which one is true and I have several different solves that go both ways. Perhaps two nearby clues are interchangeable which works in my of my areas.

      • I start by getting in my car… is one way to go but there must be a second part~ to get to the next destination, doesn even matter either way I guess as long as I get there on time.
        Do not get it twisted folks you need to stay on the straight and narrow- for now~ spring is coming Imo.

    • Distant Logic, I think you made a logical mistake about the clues and man-made structures. A third possibility could be that there was once a structure but it was removed before Forrest was born. The clues may refer to things at places in an historical context.

      Joe Brown died in 1913 and his property sold to the neighbors, for example. Now there is only an empty field; sort-of like Forrest’s old Temple Texas home.

      • Muset,

        I kinda like the idea… but wouldn’t it need to be something that will not change for some time? Like you implies; a historical site maybe… I mean, someone already bought the property and it could be sold and developed a 100 times over by the year 3009. Researching something like that could take decades and many man hours just for one clue. Something most would never know how to do.

        So if it is a place as you gave in your example… I would think it would need to be an historical site at the time the chest was hidden, right?

        • Sure, the locations of all the clues would have to endure the test of time and so I think those locations are already in the history books.

          It’s not like history will ever forget Joe Brown or Yankee Jim or Joe Meek or Lewis and Clark.

          Captain Bligh lived in a mid-terrace house on Lambeth Road in central London after rowing a thousand miles around the South Pacific. Even if it were demolished, the location of his house could be identified.

          Brown lived in the mountains and I don’t think the property has changed too much in the last hundred years.

        • in the case of the brown property, it was eventually given up to the USFS, so it would not change hands again/ nor developed as it is part of a national forest now. (I don’t personally believe it would be part of a solve, as the people solving 1 and 2, would obviously of thought of that and had that included, so apparently incorrectly, as ff has not said 3 or 4 (either/both) were for sure solved)… which it would have been if these people used an obvious answer like this and were correct.

      • Muset said-

        The clues may refer to things at places in an historical context.

        Another possibility is that what comes before the clues, supposedly the hints, may refer to places in a historical context.

  44. If we assume that each clue refers to a geographic location (some clues could possibly refer to the same location) can we also assume that each of these locations gets us physically closer to the chest? I know f said something about no switching back.

    • MM, I would rephrase your question slightly.

      Your second thought about if we can assume something else…”can we also assume that each of these locations gets us physically closer to the chest?”

      I would state it as can we also assume that each of these *clues* gets us physically closer to the chest? Which f has told us is the definition of a clue for him.

      This may be the better way to explain it since you put in parentheses “some clues could possibly refer to the same location”.

      Same location possible for different clues but the finder would have moved the correct way in between clues so (s)he is not in the same location as before.

      • Fundamental design, speaking of second thoughts- One rings a bell, but the latter of the two makes most sense.
        When I put them together they clearly lead me on a concluesion drived from their hints.
        If I recall correctly.

  45. I think that wwwh is there to tell us about where you have to turn, it s a direction -with out wwwh where would you go , wwwh is at the the bottom of the canyon its east of hob, it changes you from one road where you are at now and puts you on the right road – wwwh is made of two bodys of water, its the door way to all the clues, to find hob you s hould be going west with out wwwh you wont know if you on the right hob imo feano

  46. @Matt – Thanks for responding. That is an interesting ATF by FF you provided (https://dalneitzel.com/2018/10/27/the-nine-clues-83/ 2/24/20 @ 3:21pm.) In my typical manner, I have an interpretation not readily arrived at and one that is going to be unpopular to boot. Such is my lot in TTOTC, but if you bear with me, the path to my answer may be long, but when it is all said and done, I think it really does boil down to being simple. Everyone can be their own judge of that and use all, some, or none of this answer and/or the processes that led me to arrive at same.

    For starters, please allow me to introduce this FF ATF: “Well I will give you a clue—try to simplify if you can. That’s good advice.” (Tarry Scant website / keywords used to do a search were “try to simplify” / cited as “Nightline – ABC News” / Tarry Scant ID# 9691 / Dated as 1/12/2018 / as this is a video, such occurs around the 7:11 mark of the footage found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KRHORDNXI6U&t=0s&index=31&list=PLg2bCqbxRU9VRTmYsKwrL8q08qvwLSMnk ). Since FF has said to try and simplify, and gone so far as to say that those words are both a clue and good advice, I am going to be a good listener and try to do that with any of my solve attempts.

    To begin one such solve attempt here, I’d like to talk about this statement of fact by FF: “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure:” (Pages 131-132 of Forrest Fenn’s book entitled The Thrill of the Chase). IMO, these words are of equal importance as those of the poem itself as they define what we need to do and then the poem defines how.

    Continuing on, would you say that there is a “right order” to the poem’s clues? The FF ATF you mentioned (already identified/linked above) certainly says so, so I choose to believe FF when he says that.

    Knowing that, is there any other ATF that helps us define what that right order is?

    How about this one:

    “And there are nine clues in the poem. And the clues are in consecutive order.” (Tarry Scant website / keywords used to do a search were “consecutive order” / cited as “Report From Santa Fe with Lorene Mills – 1st Appearance” / Tarry Scant ID# 9656 / Dated as 5/13/2011/ as this is a video, such occurs around the 27:03 mark in this footage https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-oLzi4fpw_A ).

    Now, if we are allowed to combine/condense information from ATF’s because of FF’s own words above that tell us “try to simplify”, would you say that there is a correct consecutive order to the poem’s nine clues?

    IMHO, I believe we can.

    If you do not, the rest of this commentary isn’t for you and read on at your own risk.

    If you are a believer, is there any other ATF that helps us define a correct consecutive order to the poem’s nine clues?

    How about this one:

    “They’re contiguous.” (Tarry Scant website / keyword used to do a search was “contiguous” / cited as “Moby Dickens Bookshop, Taos, NM” / Tarry Scant ID# 9054 / Dated 11/02/2013 / as this is a video, such occurs around the 47:25 mark of the footage found here https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8RzrIu3hMec&list=PLg2bCqbxRU9VRTmYsKwrL8q08qvwLSMnk&index=10 )

    Again, if we are allowed to combine and condense information from ATF’s in an attempt to try and simplify as FF has stated, would you say that there is a correct consecutive and contiguous order to the poem’s nine clues?

    I believe we can.

    If you do not, the rest of this commentary isn’t for you and read on at your own risk.

    Now that we have condensed our ATF information about the clues, let’s take a look at what the two words FF has set before us as parameters for the clues mean. By the simple definitions of those two words, consecutive means “in unbroken or logical sequence” and contiguous means “touching or connected throughout an unbroken sequence”.

    Would you agree, then, that by simplifying our cited ATF’s, that there is a right order of the nine clues that must follow a connected and logical unbroken sequence because they are simultaneously consecutive and contiguous?

    I would, but if you disagree, the rest of this response isn’t for you and read on at your own risk because I wholeheartedly subscribe to the consecutive and contiguous nature of the clues as 2 facts related to TTOTC because I believe FF is telling the truth when he talks about TTOTC.

    With those facts in place, let me now ask about how you suppose searchers should go about solving clues? No need to answer, because, IMO and luckily for all of us, FF has already provided us with a method, as the following ATF’s will show.

    FF has told us this about the method for solving his poem:

    “The first clue in the poem is begin it where warm waters halt. That’s the first clue. If you don’t, if you can’t figure that clue out you don’t have anything.” (Tarry Scant website / key words used to do a search were “that’s the first clue” / cited as “New Zealand Radio” / Tarry Scant ID# 9299 / Dated 4/13/2013 / as this is from a video, I tried to link same here and verify that such works and mark an approximate time, however the link results in a “Video Unavailable” error message)

    IMO – from that ATF there is no doubt that WWWH is the first clue and I consider that as a fact regarding TTOTC. If you do not agree, the rest of this response is not for you and read on at your own risk.

    With that fact established, FF has also stated this:

    “To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f” (Tarry scant website / key words used to search with were “when I hid the treasure” / Tarry Scant ID #6338 / No source cited / dated 6/16/2017 / this link was provided, however: http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-fenn-on-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt-know-the-limits/ ).

    IMO – That ATF establishes that FF followed all the clues when he hid the chest, therefore he did so in the manner in which he has defined them, meaning he started with the first clue within an unbroken, logical, connected sequence of clues.

    Moving on from there, FF has also said the following:

    “You cannot solve the problem by starting in the middle of the poem. You should start with the first clue and then solve the other eight in order.” (Tarry Scant website / key words used to search with were “start with” / Tarry Scant ID# 2383/ no source cited / dated 2/8/2017 / this link was provided, however: https://dalneitzel.com/2017/02/08/forrest-gets-mail-13/ ).

    IMO – When we add that statement to build upon what we have established thus far, we can now say that when FF hid his treasure, he followed the clues in the manner in which he has defined them—starting with the first clue and then following the other eight within the unbroken, logical, connected sequence of the clues. In more simplistic terms, his clue order is defined as this: 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9 because such is the unbroken, logical, connected sequence of clues that he has established via the ATF’s provided and follows basic counting skills we should all know. I added the basic counting skills in my effort to keep things simple and in light of this much (IMO) debated ATF FF has provided us: “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map”. (Tarry Scant website / key words used to search were “foot pounds” / no exact source cited / Tarry scant ID#’s 2775 & 4294 / Dated 08/28/2015 / there are two links provided, with the more credible source {IMHO} being this one: https://dalneitzel.com/2014/04/26/scrapbook-sixty-two/ ). I often refer to this ATF as FOOT POUNDS for simplicity’s sake, so if I say “foot pounds ATF” later on in this post I am referring specifically to this ATF.

    IMO – With all that established, I take that the clue order we need to follow is 1-9 as a fact of TTOTC and if you do not concur then the rest of this response is not for you and read on at your own risk.

    Shifting gears ever so slightly, let me ask this: How do you suppose most searchers go about solving the clues? IMO, I’d have to say that if they were listening good to FF, they’d go about solving them 1 through 9.

    IMO – I think it would be a safe assumption, then, that searchers who tell FF of their solves also present all of their clues to him in that 1-9 order because they understand that they have to follow the nine consecutive and contiguous clues, starting with clue #1, to be able to find the chest.

    With that in mind, it is time to throw a big monkey wrench into everything we have established up to this point, and it is the ATF you provided above. To understand its meaning, IMO we also need to know what caused FF to utter these words, so here is the question that made FF answer in the way that he did:

    “Has anyone determined the nine clues and what they represent?” (Tarry Scant website / keywords used to search were “right order” / cited source is “The Lure Post Screening Q&A” / Tarry Scant ID# 9180 / Dated 05/18/2017 / video link provided https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9czRin3Tas&index=24&list=PLg2bCqbxRU9VRTmYsKwrL8q08qvwLSMnk ).

    IMO – Since the question specifies the nine clues, and we know that the number nine represents the entirety of the clues, we can simplify and understand the question as asking if anyone has determined ALL (emphasis mine) the clues and what they represent.

    IMO – As such, we must assume, then, that this part of the response by FF is also in reference to ALL the clues:

    “I don’t know that anybody has told me the clues in the right order.”

    So here, IMHO, is why that answer by FF seemingly contradicts what we have established thus far about the nine clues:

    1 – He has just stated that he has been told all nine clues, but not in the right order

    2 – We have already painstakingly established that we must start with clue #1 and follow the others in a consecutive and contiguous manner a la 1, 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, 9

    So the question we now need to ask is this: How can someone determine all 9 clues yet fail to tell them to FF in the right order? IMHO, this question gets exasperated when we consider that we have already established above that the clues are already in consecutive order in the poem, so theoretically we can already tell FF the clues in the right order SIMPLY (emphasis mine) by reading the poem!

    I will reiterate now that I think FF is telling the truth when he speaks directly of TTOTC matters. I am not saying that everything he says has a hint or a clue to it, nor that some of the things he says hasn’t been simply said in jest (like this comment “Here is a lady who may find the treasure because she has done the math and knows exactly where it is” found here https://dalneitzel.com/2013/06/19/forrest-gets-mail-4/ ……I’ll mention the foot pounds ATF at this time since such excludes “formulas”). That is IMHO and each person’s own core belief systems will play a part in how they interpret/intuit the “information” we are provided in our TTOTC endeavors.

    With all that said, I am confident that there is a way to make the “right order” ATF balance with the other two (consecutive and contiguous) to make all 3 simultaneously true.

    I will share that process in my next installment as I am curious to see how this portion will be received. I have a lot typed out already, but I need time to review it and insert sources for my materials used.

    Bowmarc

  47. In my previous installment I tried to establish the right order of the clues based upon FF’s own words. IMO, the result of that process allowed me to state that when FF hid his treasure, he followed the clues in the manner in which he has defined them—starting with the first clue and then following the other eight within the unbroken, logical, connected sequence of the nine clues. I then inserted the “right order” ATF introduced above by Matt into the mix and such seemed to contradict what we had established with our consecutive and contiguous ATFs. Looking back, I should also say that there were other ATF’s sourced that help us build our conclusion about the consecutive and contiguous nature of the nine clues, but the dilemma really involves these three main concepts that are seemingly at odds:

    Right Order

    Consecutive

    Contiguous

    It is now time to (painstakingly) try and equate those three true concepts to ultimately equal a correct solve of the nine clues, which would look like this when written as words:

    Right Order ATF + Consecutive ATF + Contiguous ATF = Nine Clues Correctly Solved

    I will “simplify” that to a numeric-esque equation, but, because I am not a word problem mathematician, explaining such will be part of this painful process so please bear with me.

    Here are the rules I am establishing for the left side my numeric-esque equation:

    A designation of 1 means that the ATF is a standalone truthful statement of fact about the clues and is representative of the base level of the ATF because it has already been proven to be true.

    A designation of 2 means that the ATF has been proven to be true in conjunction with one of the other two ATF’s that make up the left part of the equation.

    A designation of 3 means that the ATF has been proven to be true in conjunction with both of the other two ATF’s that make of the left part of the equation.

    Each ATF’s maximum value is 3 and must be reached

    Here are the rules for the right side of my numeric-esque equation:

    It must be the sum total of the three items on the left side of the equation and equal a total of 9 (in homage to there being 9 clues).

    The base equation in my numeric-esque version, then, looks like this:

    1 + 1 + 1 ≠ 9

    Paired together, the word equation and the numeric-esque equation go like this:

    (Right Order) + (Consecutive) + (Contiguous) = (Nine Clues Correctly Solved)
    (RO) + (Cons.) + (Cont.) = (9 Clues Correctly Solved) {Had to shorten}
    1 + 1 + 1 ≠ 9

    With regards to the right order ATF, since I demonstrated above in my first post that it was at odds with our consecutive ATF because FF has been told ALL the clues but NOT in the right order, I cannot award the two ATF’s a “conjunctive point” at this time. I do not have any evidence right now that the right order ATF is conjunctive to the contiguous ATF, so it remains a 1 for now.

    With regards to the consecutive ATF and the contiguous ATF, I have already associated them together in my first post and the evidence supports that the two are not at odds, so I awarded each of them a 2 as they are conjunctive to each other for now.

    After applying the word results just described above, the equation does not yet balance and looks like this:

    (Right Order) + (Cons. & Cont.) + (Cont. & Cons.) ≠ (9 Clues Correctly Solved)
    1 + 2 + 2 ≠ 9

    With the status of our word and numeric-esque equations thus established, I will begin this part of the discussion by asking this question: Besides the word “unbroken” in their definitions, what do the words consecutive and contiguous have in common?

    As I like to try and anticipate answers so as to prepare for rebuttal, someone among you readers might answer like this:

    “They both start with the letter ‘C’ Bowmarc….duh!”

    Ha! Correct, but not what I was looking for.

    If we keep further silliness out of the possible answers, don’t those two words share FF? As demonstrated in my first post, he is the one who brought those words and their definitions into TTOTC process and applied them to his nine clues, right?

    It stands to reason, then, that we may need to examine what we have come to know about FF and his TTOTC. ***(What follows are some statements and/or questions/answers to myself as part of my solve process and regarding information that, IMHO, I consider as “general knowledge” about TTOTC so I am choosing not to source every little detail at this time. If you as the reader do a modicum of your own online research using words from what I am saying as key search words on http://www.tarryscant.com you can derive the associated sources for yourself.)***

    Q – So what do we know about FF that can help us with our equation dilemma?

    A – He wrote the poem, right?

    Q – So what do we know about WHY he wrote the poem?

    A1 – He wrote the poem to give us all TTOTC.

    A2 – He wrote the poem to help us find the chest he hid as the “prize”.

    Q – What do we know about HOW to find the chest?

    A – We find the chest by following his consecutive and contiguous clues.

    Q – WHERE do we find the chest?

    A1 – We find the chest where FF hid it.

    A2 – We find the chest in the one and only spot he had to make somehow work for TTOTC.

    Q – HOW did he write the poem?

    A – He took 15 years to get it just right and felt like an architect when it was done.

    At this point, I think I have enough ingredients to make this complex statement:

    The nine contiguous clues in the poem are in consecutive order according FF’s own logical, unbroken sequencing of same so as to allow his one and only spot to work as the hiding spot of the chest he wants us to find using his clues that are difficult but not impossible to solve.

    I’ll give you a moment to digest that statement.

    What I am saying about the consecutive tag added to the clues is that they are consecutive because of how FF has logically sequenced them to allow us to solve the poem in a difficult but not impossible manner, not consecutive in the everyday sense that we want to initially intuitively apply to our TTOTC solve efforts. (I’ll discuss this subtle difference a bit later).

    IMO, we now have an understanding that the clues follow FF’s consecutive unbroken logical sequencing that allows us to solve the poem. Since FF’s logical sequencing of the clues is specific to the TTOTC, they have a right order. That makes those 2 ATF truthful to each other.

    Applying our newfound information about our ATF’s, we now have made our word and numeric-esque equations look like this:

    (RO & Cons.) + (RO & Cons. & Cont.) + (Cont. & Cons.) ≠ (9 Clues Correctly Solved)
    2 + 3 + 2 ≠ 9

    At this point, if you don’t agree such is a possibility, read on at your own risk.

    In my next installment, I will attempt to validate all three parts as we need to get the Right Order and Contiguous parts of the equation to become what I am calling conjunctive to each other to raise their values to three each thereby making the equation equal nine.

    Stay tuned.

    Bowmarc

    • I think my teenage son could probably work out where the treasure is Bowmarc, but he just might struggle understanding what you are doing.

          • You’ll just have to wait until the end of the series I guess, Jake, since my efforts so far seem to be lost on a lot of people. At that time I’ll make a list of simple statements about my understanding of TTOTC and you can read over the rest of the series again to see if you can follow along with the process that led me to believe those things.

      • Muset: indeed. And the simplest interpretation is that the 9 clues are in sequential order as you read the poem normally. And since the first clue is “Begin it where warm waters halt”, that means that clues 2-9 follow — in order — starting with the 6th line of the poem. And the contiguous requirement means there can be no clue in the first stanza.

        • @Muset & Zap – I can understand your simple comments. However, you both fail to make any reference to what I am presenting as a discrepancy between ATF’s. IMO, and as presented, the Right Order ATF is at odds with the Consecutive and Contiguous ATF’s and my explanation may have been long, but did boil down to concepts that are pretty simple when all was said and done. Care to elaborate on how you balance the Right Order ATF into your own understandings of the other two?

          • Hi Bowmarc, how could we be certain that the right order comment strictly means the 1-9 sequence? What if they skipped one clue, or included a non-clue line in their solve, would that not qualify as ‘out of order’? Maybe is just as simple as that…

          • Hiya Oz – In one of my long posts I included the full Q & A regarding what I am terming as the Right Order ATF. Because of the questions phrasing, such shaped FF’s response to specifically mean the entire clues, just not in the correct sequence, therefore non-clues and skipping aren’t considered.

          • Thanks Bow, I think it should be considered, understanding that sometimes he could give to much away if he were to answer specifics.

          • After looking at the poem in a new light, I noticed something kind of odd about the first two stanzas. Don’t they kind of sound like they describe the word “it” in the context of the poem? As I have gone alone in there and with my treasures bold. So you have the I with the T from treasures that gives you the word “it” The concept of possession or ownership seems to be important as well. So the first stanza describes the word it and when you go down to stanza two, you’ve got the word it twice. The first line BWWWH, is to draw your attention to the letter S in waters because that’s where warm waters halt in the poem. It then tells you to take “it” in the canyon down. So if you take the S down to the next stanza and put it next to it to form the word it’s. The reason I think ownership plays a role is because some of the contractions used hint at it. The apostrophe itself can be used to represent ownership.

          • Thanks Oz. My tangent here is just one possibility among billions of others. Somewhere in those billions there is truth and we all have to decide for ourselves where and when to make an assumption and run with it to see what unfolds. Many times in my long posts I have referenced instances whereby FF’s answers/quotes contain subtleties that searchers should scrutinize and try to make sense of and this latest tangent is an example of same.

            As asked, the question giving rise to what I have termed FF’s Right Order ATF indicates a decidedly definitive list of the nine clues, which yielded FF’s response of “I don’t know that anybody has given me the clues in the right order.” I do not see any sort of tolerance in the question and answer that allows for your possibility of skipping a clue entirely. The same holds true to your non-clue argument and the two go hand-in-hand. A non-clue, by seeming definition, would not be a clue, therefore cannot be a part of the correct order of the actual clues and neither can skipping a clue.

            You have nine clues. You provide your nine clues to FF. They were correct but not in the right order. That is how I interpret the Q & A.

          • NonName6, I’ve been preaching the I = IT theory if you haven’t noticed. Glad someone else is on board, but also a little nervous.

          • Yeah, I’m starting to think the same thing too, Aaron. I also noticed that the only letter that’s on every line is T. So if the Ts for treasure, then maybe we have to do something with all the T’s in the poem

          • Wow, Aaron. That’s some pretty good mental gymnastics there. I had a much simpler idea. Notice all the subtle hints to ownership throughout the poem. The first line even, as I have gone, have can also mean own. You got the home of Brown. What if who Brown was is not important, but Brown owns the home is what matters? The word own is even right in the word Brown. You’ve got all the contractions scattered throughout. The apostrophe on each one indicating ownership. So maybe those are the clues we were meant to see. So what’s a good word that is in the poem that indicates ownership? How about the word “my”? In Montana, there’s a My Lake, My Creek, My Pass etc. So it could just be as simple as that.

        • Yep, a T on ever line and no X. Here is something I found interesting. I never got anywhere with this, and doubt seriously if it has anything to do with anything, but interesting.

          X is the 24th letter of the alphabet
          Treasures is the longest and only 9 letter word in the poem
          I is the 9th letter of the alphabet – I have gone alone in there (alone in the poem?)
          there are 9 clues in the poem
          the last line of the poem is 24
          9 letters into the last line is t – following this letter are the letters i and t
          t is the 20th letter of the alphabet
          the 20th line, 9th letter is t and the letter previous to it is i. The two letters after it are t and i
          The two letters after the 9th letter in the 9th line are i t
          ‘To the gold’ is 9 letters

          I looked at the letters before and after T in these lines:

          And take it in the canyon down – 9th letter T, 8th and 10th letter is I
          I give you title to the gold. – 9th letter T, 10th letter I, 11th letter T
          So why is it that I must go – 9th letter t, 8th letter I, tenth letter T
          I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak. – 9th letter T, 10th letter I, 11th letter
          In what might be the 9th clue (If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,) the 24th letter is T
          Look quickly down, your quest to cease, – 24th letter is T

          • Perhaps the “T” is connected with a “teeter totter,”
            you know, a see-saw.

            Those ole thyme playgrounds were such fun.

          • Aaron,

            There are many ways to play with “I” and “T” in this manner.
            AS I or Isa as in Isa lake… WWsH?
            T in treasures, the only nine letter word in the poem, is 42 spaces from A in As to T in treasures.
            Ever wonder why the treasure chest was told to weight 42 lbs? or why even mention it for its exact weight?

          • Hello Seeker. I believe the mention of the weight of the treasure chest may have been just being curious, but also to make the Chase more tempting to the searchers. The weight also explains why it took him two trips to hide it.

          • Aaron,

            All I’m implying is, when it comes to letters and numbers we can find just about anything we want. LOL I had word counts for each line in each stanza that would match elevations of clues on a map [having six places] three mountain peaks, a trail head, and a lake in a box canyon and the elevation of where all the peaks met… IT ALL FIT…lol
            I just don’t what really put me in the place I was at other than the stories in the book that influence that location. The problem… it was a 4 – 5 mile hike in one way to that spot and 10 miles to the lake. I was looking at a lot hiking with two trips.

          • I agree Seeker, and I really do not believe that numbers have anything to do with a solution. I’m just sharing this because of the talk about T’s, and that it is slightly interesting 🙂

          • I had an idea about how X could factor in. In the first stanza, the words “secret” and
            “treasures” The first word begins with the last letter of the second and the second word begins with the end of the first word. So if you match the letters with a line giving you an X. The riches new and old, he could be referring to those two words (secret and treasures) with the new and old being first and last. Are there any other two-word combination that makes an X like that in the poem? I thought I found one, but can’t seem to find it now.

    • Bowmarc,

      There’s a lot here to discuss. It may have been better served to have asked for its own thread?

      I agree with warlock… about leaving out chronological.

      Chronological; (of a record of events) starting with the earliest and following the order in which they occurred.
      Relating to the establishment of dates and time sequences.
      Calculated in terms of the passage of time rather than some other criterion.

      Time seems to play a roll in all this.. what exactly that roll is, is yet to be determined. Not unlike the idea of “too far to walk” being about a past time.
      Some ideas related to time are what fenn has suggested;
      A comprehensive knowledge of geography might help. In most cases, geography is slow moving and over time, not unlike; the RM’s are still moving and will have an impact on the clues in 3009. Is time the “big picture” idea?

      Anyways… what say you… “Chronological”?

      • Hiya Seeker. I am talking about the 9 clues, and in response to an ATF Matt posted about further up the thread, so this seems to be the appropriate thread.

        Chronological has been mentioned to me twice now, but TarryScant only has 3 hits for a search using that word, and none of them refer to the clues. A video link was offered up, but there are 4 files and almost 30 minutes of footage I would have to listen to find it.

        I’m trying to balance a 3 pronged equation and am close to concluding same. If you guys want a fourth added, provide the exact quote and I will consider putting it into my equation.

        The wheels are already turning…

          • Thanks for clarifying Warlock62. I know you cited the general area of source previously, but the fine tuning of where to look is appreciated.

            I listened to the clip.

            For me, the way FF uses chronological as applied to the clues is as follows:

            Definition: Chronological – starting with the earliest and then following the others in the order in which they occurred.

            Well, FF has said he followed the clues when he hid the treasure.

            He also said he started with clue #1 (the earliest clue) and then followed the others in the order in which they occurred (such occurred in a consecutive manner as clues 2-9).

            I see no contradiction between the definition, FF’s usage, or my usage/understanding.

            I respect that others take chronological as meaning—hypothetically speaking— something akin to clue #1 occurred in the ice age (WWWH), which developed clue #2 (the canyon), and in the millennia between then and now, the sediments within that canyon’s walls have combined in such a manner as to leave a distinctive ocher colored layer (half of Clue #3 as HOB) and just beneath that layer is something that should concern us somehow (PIB as the other half of clue #3), etc. and when you get to today, as you stand on your heavy loads from a landslide that occurred just prior to the birth of FF, and that landslide holds back the waters high, as you stand there on that heavy loads on the summer solstice at exactly noon EST and peer over the landscape, a shadow will fall over the canyon…

            That’s plausible to me, too, and I hope it works out.

          • Bowmarc ~ *Definition: Chronological – starting with the earliest and then following the others in the order in which they occurred.*

            “Earliest” is the keyword in the definition for chronological.
            Just because the word “time” is not directly mentioned in that one {1} definition… earliest is… early [earliest] means; a particular time or period.
            Sure, earliest means first… but it’s first in a time line. If you remove “time”… you can’t use chronological… it meaning is all about time.
            *Chronological order is a way of arranging actions, events or things according to the TIME they occurred.* Staring with the earliest???

          • @Seeker –

            Definition of TIME – the indefinite continued progress of existence and events in the past, present, and future regarded as a whole.

            In the past, FF hid a chest.

            He followed his nine clues when he hid the chest.

            The process of following the clues to hide the chest was the continued progress of events in the past, present , and future regarded as a whole, namely TTOTC.

            Again, I see no contradiction of usage/understanding of either chronological or time as related to TTOTC in the solve process I am attempting to describe.

            Yours may differ and I am OK with that.

        • Bowmarc ~*, but TarryScant only has 3 hits for a search using that word, and none of them refer to the clues.*

          When you’re done with the videos we can chat more. but I suggest that you may need to look around at different sources [web sites] than just one. I’d bet a nickel the information is here as well.

        • Why? Tall Andrew,
          Fenn was thinking down the road 100, 1000 , even 10,000 years… why tell us the clues are Chronological if time is not involved?
          I mean he could have left us with just consecutive, right? But yet when talking about the clues he added; contiguous and chronological…
          Contiguous means; together in sequence. Can’t there be a sequence in time?
          Consecutive; Consecutive events… events of things happening over time?

          All three words by definitions have time in their meanings… so, why is the thought counter productive?

        • Time is obviously relevant. Forrest didn’t mistakenly switch tenses in the poem. He uses past and present and future tense. Add to that his quote that the clues are chronological and it’s nonsensical to say that being concerned with time is counterproductive.

          • I think that’s accurate. The poem could very well be describing one place that has changed over the years. That could be what the semicolon is indicating.

    • IMHO – That is an excellent link and thank you for that. I would stress the reading of the “How Tos and Who-Done-it” section, and especially the second paragraph.

      Again, thanks for sharing.

  48. With all that said, let’s re-examine contiguous for a moment because that word now seems to be the odd man out of the equation. Does contiguous have a subtly different usage/understanding that allows FF to craft his poem to make it difficult but not impossible to solve while at the same time making it work for the only spot that he wanted to use for TTOTC?

    And so enters my canyon idea to the mix.

    I claim that all 9 clues are a part of a single canyon.

    Would you agree, then, that all 9 clues are contiguous since they are all something in a single defined area made up of the sum of its parts that I am calling a canyon? Anything in the canyon touches the canyon, right?

    Now let me add that this canyon is a dead-end, meaning there is only 1 safe way to enter and exit same because the dead-end is that part of the canyon where it meets up with the elevated terrain that helps to define the area as being a canyon in the first place. Entering the canyon at the dead end is considered too dangerous a proposition and we know (paraphrased) that FF doesn’t want anyone to get hurt during their TTOTC searches ( https://dalneitzel.com/2017/06/29/safety_first/ ).

    However, getting to the dead-end portion of the canyon is a relatively safe trip by starting from the other end of the canyon.

    The trip from the “safe end” of the canyon to the dead end portion comprises the precise route of our 9 clues, which end in the dead-end.

    Now you are probably asking, what’s the catch, Bowmarc? Just walk from clue #1 all the way to clue #9 and you are done. You’ve solved TTOTC in a consecutive and contiguous manner by doing that, right?

    Well, no, because we have forgotten that no one has given FF the clues in the right order and that is the remaining part of the equation we are trying to balance (the Right Order ATF and the Contiguous ATF are the two remaining parts that need to become conjunctive in our equation). The walk just described still has the clues 1 – 9 starting from the safe entrance to the canyon up to the dead-end which would align the clues in an order that (IMHO) I think very few people would fail to correctly describe to FF, but we know people have failed to give FF the clues in the right order because that ATF is part of our unbalanced equation.

    I am well aware (as we all should be) that the known first clue starts with these three words: “Begin it where”.

    I am also well aware that I have ascribed all 9 clues as being a part of a canyon.

    I am also well aware that I’ve just described a dead-end canyon and stated that it can only be safely entered from the other end.

    I am also well aware that you are now most likely thinking that ol’ Bowmarc can’t have it both ways. He cannot tell us to associate all 9 clues to the canyon and then tell us we can only enter that canyon one way, and then deny us our 1-9 clue order when we start solving the clues from the safe end of the canyon to the dead-end portion of the canyon.

    Let’s not forget, though, that this whole TTOTC is a combination of physical and intellectual activities. How many times/ways has FF told us (paraphrased) to read the poem over and over and over as well as to think? How many times/ways has FF said (paraphrased) that searchers don’t dwell long enough on the first clue or underestimate its importance? Too many for Ol’ Bowmarc to cite each and every instance…LOL, but here are links to some examples:

    https://www.huffpost.com/entry/2-million-santa-fe-treasu_b_932299 THINK

    https://dalneitzel.com/2017/02/08/forrest-gets-mail-13/ THINK (Funny but true)

    https://stories.californiasunday.com/2015-07-05/the-everlasting-forrest-fenn/ THINK

    http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-and-weekly-words-from-forrest-fenn-get-back-in-the-box/ THINK

    http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-first-clue-importance/ 1st CLUE

    https://illinoisghost.wordpress.com/fenn-quotes/ 1st CLUE

    http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/questions-with-fenn-archive-1/ 1st CLUE

    I think that is enough examples to allow for my paraphrasing above.

    Getting back on track, the word “begin” is simply defined as “to do or be the first part of something that continues; start.” WWH, then, because it is the known first clue, can simply “be the first part of something that continues”, namely FF’s consecutive and contiguous clues that he designed to both make his one and only spot work for the TTOTC as well as making the solving of the clues difficult but not impossible.

    Nothing I’ve seen or read (and then obviously really thought about) precludes FF from telling us about that dead-end spot as the first clue.

    So let’s think of the dead-end as being the first clue and see what that nets us (fishing pun intended).

    ***(What follows is just me “talking aloud” about what I consider my “general knowledge” about TTOTC. If you need clarity about anything, just pick out key words and search for them online as they relate to TTOTC, or post a question about same that I will try to clarify)***

    Concept = The dead-end is the first clue.

    We must have the first clue or we don’t have anything.

    The goal of TTOTC is the chest as a “prize”.

    The dead-end is also the goal.

    The dead-end and the treasure chest collectively make up the goal of TTOTC.

    The goal of the clues is to lead us to the chest.

    I think at this point I have enough components to make this compound sentence:

    If the goals are to safely make it to the dead-end of the canyon and to find the chest, and the dead-end is the first clue, and the clues lead us to the chest, clues 2-9 lead us to clue 1 (the dead-end) and the chest.

    ***(More thinking out loud here)***

    The canyon contains all nine clues.

    Each end of the canyon constitutes a clue because we can only safely enter the canyon from the safe end and need to get to the dead-end, so that is at least two of the nine clues accounted for.

    The dead-end is clue #1.

    The safe end is clue #2.

    The other seven clues are also part of the canyon, so they describe things to see/do to find the chest which is somewhere in the dead-end of the canyon.

    The clues lead us to the chest.

    The clues must also lead us from clue #2 to clue #1 because clue #1 is the dead-end of the canyon and we cannot get to the dead-end without using the safe end (clue #2).

    FF tells us the goal of TTOTC with the first clue, then how to safely and precisely get there starting with clue #2, followed by clues 3-9.

    My conclusion from all this thinking out loud conjecture is that FF accomplishes balancing our equation with another subtly simple yet dynamic twist—by telling us what the goal of TTOTC is with his first clue. The dead-end of the canyon is WWWH. WWWH is a description of the dead-end of the canyon.

    With this thought process, the clues are still CONSECUTIVE because they are exactly as FF arranged them—his logical, unbroken sequence that allowed him to use the one and only place he had in mind for TTOTC setting while simultaneously making the poem difficult but not impossible to solve. He made the poem difficult but not impossible to solve by providing us with the goal first, then how to safely and precisely get there. They start with #1 and go 2, 3, 4, 5, 6, 7, 8, and 9 just like he states. (As an aside, for the longest time I thought that FF had to make his area work somehow because of the difficulty presented by the landscape, etc. What I have just suggested really does equate the solving of TTOTC to a walk from one end of a canyon to the other and FF had to make that simple walk more difficult than it really is by architecting the poem in a manner that makes that same walk more difficult to understand, but a really simple and safe process when all is said and done.)

    The clues are also still CONTIGUOUS because they make up specific parts of the canyon that FF has chosen to describe and we need to follow his clues on our walk through the canyon to find the chest.

    However, I feel like the “conjunctability” of the Right Order ATF to the Contiguous ATF is still a bit tenuous, so I need to provide some more details about how searchers were able to provide all the clues, just not in the right order as that ATF indicates.

    I will tackle that process in my next installment.

    For now, then, the equations still stands as unbalanced and looks like this:

    (RO & Cons.) + (RO & Cons. & Cont.) + (Cont. & Cons.) ≠ (9 Clues Correctly Solved)
    2 + 3 + 2 ≠ 9

    Until next time.

    Bowmarc

  49. Continued from previous posts:

    There are some simple levels of complexity to how FF architected his poem that allow us to balance the equation we have been trying to solve. The equation currently looks like this:

    (RO & Cons.) + (RO & Cons. & Cont.) + (Cont. & Cons.) ≠ (9 Clues Correctly Solved)
    2 + 3 + 2 ≠ 9

    This (hopefully) final section on our long path to solving that equation will entail making our Right Order ATF conjunctive to our Contiguous ATF, which I said was still a bit of a tenuous connectivity at the moment.

    In the previous post I established that FF provided us with the goal of TTOTC as clue number #1 of his nine clues, then used the remaining eight clues to show us how to get to that goal.

    I also established that I thought that all of the clues were within a dead-end canyon, which made all of the clues contiguous since they all are part of said canyon.

    The genius of FF’s telling us the final spot first is that he is able to establish a RIGHT ORDER for the solving of his clues THAT HE ARRANGED IN A LOGICAL UNBROKEN SEQUENCE (CONSECUTIVE) that allows for the possibility of solving the poem in an area that already has all of the clues CONTIGUOUS to each other. IMHO, that entire process is what helps to make solving his poem difficult but not impossible, and is what I consider the first level of the simple complexity to the overall architecture of the poem. I say it is a “simple complexity” because all he did was take the last clue in the total of nine and make it the first one he talks about, but in so doing he changed the entire dynamic of what really is a simple walk through a relatively safe canyon.

    If you don’t like that idea, read on at your own risk.

    As stated, the concept just described only “helps” to make solving his poem difficult but not impossible. There is another “consequence” that arises as a result of FF using the goal of TTOTC as the first clue, and that will help define our Right Order ATF a bit better.

    This “consequence”, IMHO, is the second layer of architected simple complexity to the poem and was intentional on FF’s part.

    A “consequence” of FF arranging the clues with the goal as the first clue, and then the rest of the clues guiding us precisely to our goal, is that such opens up the possibility to describe something in the canyon more than once. I call this a redundancy of the clues. This still allows for there to be 9 total clues, they just do not have to describe 9 separate and distinct things. In the past, and on this very site, I’ve asked others to really think about that possibility and how it impacts our search efforts. Searching for 9 separate places because there are 9 clues is an entirely different kind of search than one that looks for a lesser number of places because some of the clues describe the same thing. As an example, since the poem mentions “water high” after it mentions WWWH (as Clue #1), “water high” can be referring to WWWH because we are moving from Clue#2 towards Clue#1 with the other 7 clue places/things being mentioned to keep us in line with our goal. That possibility right there has just done something subtle yet very important to help us balance the equation, as follows:

    First, redundancy shrinks the number of actual things the clues describe thereby compounding the intended “difficult but not impossible” nature of the clues needed to make the otherwise simple walk through the canyon to solve TTOTC a “bit” harder. In continuation of the “water high” example above, if such is the only redundant clue, then that leaves us with 6 other clues to figure out because we know that the first two clues define each end of the canyon and the one redundant clue refers to WWWH. Whether it is an intellectual or BOTG solve, if you are thinking/looking for something other than WWWH when dealing with WH in your clue sequencing, you won’t be solving the poem or describing the right order of the clues according to how FF needs you to.

    Secondly, since the number of clue places/things has shrunk down from 9 separate places/things to some number less than that, when you combine that lesser number with our knowledge that we are given the goal of TTOTC as clue #1, such combination dictates exactly how the clues need to be presented to FF for them to qualify as being in the RIGHT ORDER. In continuation of our “water high” example above, let’s randomly say that such is clue #6. When you tell FF your 9 clues, you had better tell him that clue #6 is WH representative of WWWH. Fail to do so and you may have all the right clues, but not the right order. The possibility also exists that there are more redundancies than just our “water high” example, further shrinking the number of clue places/things, which further refines and defines exactly how you have to tell your clues to FF in order for them to be in the right order.

    Part of the genius at play with this second level of simple complexity just described, then, is that by figuring out one clue, there is the possibility that you have solved more than one at the same time (WWWH is also represented by WH in the example above). {As a quick aside – I find it very interesting that this understanding provides for the possibility that the whole TTOTC could be made up of as little as 3 places/things—-each end of our dead-end canyon and something in between the two as a guide…now where have I heard about a creek before? Reference each of those 3 places 3 times in the poem and you have a total of 9 clues and a pretty darn good idea of how the trip goes! LOL}

    Part of the genius at play with this second level of simple complexity is also that the actual clue count gets lost among what I will call “the magic total of 9 clues.” How many times have we had 9 pounded into our heads as we talk about TTOTC? Too many to count, right!?! You hear/see something long enough and you start only seeing it one way. But I have just shown how a lesser total can still add up to 9, but only reference as few as 3 places/things. Mention those 3 things to FF in a sequence of clues that doesn’t establish the first clue as the goal or that doesn’t provide the redundancy, and you have mentioned all the clues to FF, just not in the Right Order. Those clues, however, are certainly still contiguous—they just are arranged and tallied in a subtly different manner.

    With that understanding, we’ve just balanced our equation because we have made the Right Order ATF conjunctive to the Contiguous ATF, so our equation now looks like this:

    (RO/Cons/Cont) + (RO/Cons/Cont) + (RO/Cont/Cons) = (9 Clues Correctly Solved)
    3 + 3 + 3 = 9

    The clues are consecutive according to how FF needed to arrange them to make the 1-way walk through a relatively safe dead-end canyon more difficult but not impossible to figure out/do. He arranged them with the goal of TTOTC as clue #1, then describes exactly how to reach our goal safely via clues 2-9 in order. That is how he made his one and only considered spot work for TTOTC. This is how the CONSECUTIVE nature of the clues and any ATF’s that makes reference to such a true statement by FF.

    The entirety of the area that the clues fall in is a single dead-end canyon which makes the clues contiguous because the canyon is the sum of its parts. This is how the CONTIGUOUS nature of the clues and any ATF’s that makes reference to such a true statement by FF.

    The goal first arrangement of the clues allows for a redundancy of clues and together such architecture causes searchers to fail to properly provide FF with the RIGHT ORDER of the clues.

    IMHO, this concept is validated by the following ATF, which serves to be the conjunctive evidence that ties in all three of the ATF’s we have been trying to balance (Right Order ATF, Consecutive ATF, and Contiguous ATF):

    “There have been people that have figured out the first couple of clues and walked right past the treasure chest.” ( http://www.eisradio.org/item/003/ Audio File around the 12:53 mark)

    Since the first couple of clues are each end of our canyon, and people have gone to clue #1 because it is WWWH and gotten there safely via clue #2 (The PIB spot and the correct starting point for the BOTG solve of TTOTC), it is this point where their solves go awry because, IMO, they then leave the WWWH spot in search of the other clues because they haven’t figured out the architecture of the poem as I have just painstakingly broken down. Those people have solved the first couple of clues simply by walking to WWWH from the PIB spot but fail to recognize the significance of what they have done.

    To further support the validity of what I have presented, let’s examine this ATF to see how such can be a true statement by FF and why:

    https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/sante-fe-treasure-hunt-1.2942225 ) TarryScant ID 9264

    OFF: “You say, ‘Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown.’ That seems like a couple of clues to me.”

    FENN: “That sounds like three or four to me.”

    IMHO, the second stanza only has two clues and they describe each end of our canyon. However, due to a redundancy of clues, we know that WH is used later in the poem and represents a clue we already have, that being WWWH. Since FF knows how he architected his poem, he can honestly say that that the second stanza sounds like three or four clues because he knows that WWWH is also the answer to a later clue described as WH. How profound of a statement do you find his answer now when viewed through Ol’ Bowmarc’s bifocals? Besides the profound nature of FF’s answer, such answer also allows us to take ourselves down many a rabbit hole because we are now trying to figure out if that stanza has two, three, or four clues WITHIN THE STANZA and NOT WITHIN THE ENTIRE POEM. I don’t think that possibility was lost on FF. He did not mislead or trick us, he let us do that to ourselves because he knows why his answer is a truthful statement and now all of us do as well if you think this solve process is plausible.

    If you don’t agree, read on at your own risk.

    Here is another ATF we can attempt to validate via the architecture of the poem described in the solve process:

    “Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain”
    ( https://dalneitzel.com/2015/11/02/forrest-gets-mail-9/ ).

    Well, considering that all the clues are part of a single canyon, mention this or that feature while walking from the safe-end to the dead-end (which we know will make you pass all of the clues) and you may have mentioned some of the clues to FF (for example, since the poem says creek, I’m fairly certain that such would be mentioned when people talk about their clues). If FF is uncertain, my guess is that searchers didn’t give him clues in the right order/goal first sequence needed and such left room for doubt that the searchers were even aware that they had arrived and were that close, especially if they don’t read the architecture of the poem the same way as I have been painstakingly detailing here.

    This ATF seems to support that searchers still use WWWH as the start of their BOTG activities whereby they go to WWWH and then move away from it in search of the other clues in other remote (and often distant) areas:

    “Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem. Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f ”

    ( http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/ )

    IMO, that is self-explanatory if you use my solve technique described herein so consider it homework…LOL.

    To wrap this up (besides a forthcoming epilogue of sorts in which I will list some of our favorite ATF’s, explain how such can be verified using this solve process, as well as make some statements about TTOTC that I feel necessarily result from this solve process), let me get back to this ATF which I mentioned very early along. Earlier I said this:

    “To begin one such solve attempt here, I’d like to talk about this statement of fact by FF: ‘So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure:’ (Pages 131-132 of Forrest Fenn’s book entitled The Thrill of the Chase). IMO, these words are of equal importance as those of the poem itself as they define what we need to do and then the poem defines how.”

    If FF tells us about the goal of TTOTC with his first clue, and such is the dead-end of a canyon that can only be safely reached via the other end of the canyon, and that safe end is clue #2, and then the rest of the clues lead us from clue#2 safely to clue #1, imaginatively, hasn’t he just painted us his rainbow to follow to his treasure? IMHO, that statement about a rainbow by FF is one of the subtle hints in the book that will help us with the clues!

    Until next time…

    Bowmarc

    • You’re triple counting the conjunction of all three.

      Draw a circle for each item. Then an oval containing each pair. And a large circle for all three. A total of 7, not 9.

      • My numbers were defined above as to what they represent and why. A total of 3 for a singular ATF means it has successfully become conjunctive to the other two ATF’s to get a grand total of 9 in homage to the 9 clues——well, that and I am not a mathematician. Lol

    • I’ve read all of your installments, I think, and they are very thorough and well written IMO. I was able to follow your explanations and logic. With all of the chatter on some other less detailed posts, I’m a bit surprised these posts haven’t had many responses.

      The only thing I really have to critique is your explanation of this ATF:
      OFF: “You say, ‘Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown.’ That seems like a couple of clues to me.”

      FENN: “That sounds like three or four to me.”

      It seems like a stretch to say that, in your interpretation, WWH and WH are the same place/thing therefore, “Since FF knows how he architected his poem, he can honestly say that that the second stanza sounds like three or four clues because he knows that WWWH is also the answer to a later clue described as WH.”

      For that to be true, wouldn’t it also be true that if someone repeated the line BIWWWH then ff could honestly say that that one line sounds like 2 clues? BIWWWH is clearly just one clue, even if the place/thing the clue refers to is also the same place/thing that another, separate clue refers to.

      I’ll also add that you seem to take BIWWWH as clue #1 and PIBTHOB as clue #2. So what do the other lines mean to you if they’re not clues? Also, if stanza 2 is comprised of only 2 clues in your interpretation, what are the other 7? Or at least, how many clues do you have after the blaze line in the poem?

      I enjoyed reading your posts, I applaud the thought that went into them. But I am curious how you would respond to my inquiries.

      • @DL – Thanks for reading and commenting. You’ve read everything I have posted so far for that particular thread—I’m still working on the “epilogue of sorts” that I mentioned.

        Part of the problem with my long posts, IMO, is that they get sent to moderation (which is understandable) and once approved, there is no indication in the “Most Recent Comments” section of the blog as an “announcement” that I have posted something new. In short, it gets lost amongst the pace of the debate over other matters. It is hard enough for me to remember where I saw or posted something, let alone anyone else who may take an interest in same…LOL. I’ve gotten to the point where I type out a response in Word and save such as the name of the thread I’m posting in, plus the date so I have a fighting chance of finding it when searching the blog…LOL.

        My posts tend to be on the fringe and against the grain. I’m looking for other possibilities as to why this thing hasn’t been solved and I hope it is obvious that I do put thought into what I share.
        The ATF you mentioned has been much debated before, and what I have shared about it is just one possibility about how to read it. I’ll share that I also believe that just because FF say’s it “sounds like three or four clues” does not mean there absolutely has to be three or four clues. There is another ATF (paraphrased and to the best of my memory) where a woman asked FF if he were lying when he made the sounds like three or four clue comment and he states that he didn’t remember saying that but he was not lying (did a quick search and found it here http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/ ). That ATF could be evidence that my other possibility is closer to the truth—remember, TTOTC has been designed to be difficult but not impossible and what do we know about 80% of the truth? That there is another 20% somewhere for us to discover, IMHO. 

        As to your point about BIWWWH, IMHO, FF has to be careful not to reveal too much about the architecture of his poem in his ATF’s. I’m not familiar with any ATF where such has been presented in the manner which you speak, but such would certainly be interesting to dissect.

        BIWWWHATIITCDNFBTFTW is clue #1 for me. It is a description of the dead-end portion of the canyon. PIB is clue #2 as the safe-end of the canyon and is the correct BOTG starting point. This goal-first level of architecture allows for the first 2 clues to be “solved”. HOB is not a clue, IMO, but it certainly has sent many a searcher down a rabbit hole or two of researching who Brown is, etc. Brown is poetic for the chest, and where it sits up in the BIWWWH end of the dead-end canyon is its “home.” PIB, then, correctly aligns the rest of the clues up for a precise walk into the canyon to find the chest.

        I am examining the poem from many angles and have another layer of architecture that I am not going to reveal. It is the application of that layer that is helping me to define what a clue is and what isn’t a clue (like my HOB example above) so I do not have the other clues sorted out yet. When I do, my attentions will turn to marrying what I “know” about the poem’s architecture to a map, then BOTG.

  50. Epilogue 1: Here are some more ATF’s followed by links to their source and then my opinion (IMO) on how such can be understood within the solve process I just presented.

    200 Feet = “People that have been within 200 feet of the treasure didn’t know they were there”
    https://www.koat.com/article/new-mexico-man-gives-update-on-hidden-treasure-chest/5063636
    IMO – This is due to the goal first alignment of the clues. People still need to solve for BIWWWH and often BOTG the location not realizing it is the start and the end. You need to arrive there via all of FF’s clues, not as the result of figuring out WWWH, going there because it is the first clue, and then wandering off in search of the other clues (sometimes referred to as such things as stomping out the remaining clues, solving clues in situ, etc. Others also go to WWWH to try and “view” the remaining clues, or triangulate the other clues, etc. again not realizing that they have already passed by all the clues on their way up to WWWH).

    Profundity of Meaning = “For instance, emblazoned upon some of the bronze bells I’ve buried are the words, ‘Imagination is more important than knowlege.’ If I had spelled that last word correctly it would not have had the profundity of meaning I wanted. To misspell the word emphasized my point that having knowledge is, in fact, not as important as being resourceful.”
    http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/
    IMO – this quote gives us insight into the level of thought FF is capable of, and if he spent 15 years architecting his poem, I am willing to spend time thinking about his words and analyzing such for complexity and profundity with a little simplicity sprinkled in for good measure. My comment about the possibility of the “sounds like three or four to me” ATF being a profound statement is one such possibility of this type of wording in the poem.

    LGFI = “The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues.)
    http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-over-five-years-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/
    IMO – This quote is interesting because of the word “closer”. In the solve process I just presented, since clue #1 is our goal and is only safely reachable via clue #2 as our correct BOTG starting point, FF using the word “closer” is a 100% accurate description of how the TTOTC process has to unfold for anyone, including TLGFI.

    T.S. Eliot = “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental. T. S. Eliot said:
    We shall not cease from our exploration
    And at the end of all our exploring
    Will be to arrive where we started
    And know the place for the first time”
    http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-author-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/
    IMO – Since we are starting our TTOTC process with the understanding that the first clue is our goal and the second clue is the safe starting point for our journey to that goal, the T.S. Eliot quote is the epitome of TTOTC solve process. We will only come to know what we started with (our goal location as clue #1) after we have journeyed along the rest of the clues that lead us to that spot.

    Start with the First Clue = “That’s right joseph, you should start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively to the treasure. Hints in the book are not that organized.f”
    http://mysteriouswritings.com/order-of-clues-and-hints-featured-question-with-forrest/
    IMO – With this ATF I want to emphasize the possibility of WHAT he is saying by HOW he is saying it. In the ATF FF says “start with the first clue”. In this solve process I stressed that despite the first clue saying “BEGIN it where”, begin is simply defined as “to do or be the first part of something that continues; start.” With the solve process I described, we have an understanding that WHAT FF is describing is the goal first, then telling us how to safely get there. To me, that is exactly HOW he phrased his answer above—we “start with the first clue” (conceptually as the first part of something that continues) and “follow the others consecutively to the treasure (as the remaining 8 clues that consecutively lead us from clue #2 all the way back to clue #1).

    Big Picture/No Short Cuts = “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. F”
    http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-questions-with-forrest-warm-waters-and-geography/
    IMO – The first couple of sentences reinforce that the entire poem is needed for the correct solve. There is architecture present within the poem beyond what I have described thus far, and part of that missing architecture is poetic license. IMHO, the hints help with the clues by eliminating themselves from being considered as a clue, like my HOB interpretation. Searching for a gazillion persons/places/things as an answer for Brown when such poetically represents the chest almost guarantees no shot at solving/completing TTOTC. However, by recognizing the correct nature of what HOB represents, such frees the searcher up to put emphasis on how the rest of the line needs to be read and understood, thereby revealing the PIB information as the actual clue. Since the PIB information is the safe entrance to our dead-end canyon and is representative of clue #2, it verifies the possibility of our goal-first ordering of the clues and opens up the possibility of understanding other ATF’s in a whole new light. The big picture is a nod to the concept that the entire TTOTC takes place in one dead-end canyon. There are no shortcuts to get to our goal—we have to safely enter the dead-end via clue #2 and follow the remaining clues with precision.

    Not Especially Difficult to Reach = “I hid the treasure in a place that is not especially difficult to reach.”
    https://www.westword.com/news/forrest-fenn-on-death-of-randy-bilyeu-ongoing-hunt-for-2-million-treasure-8140159
    IMO – This ATF lends credence to the possibility of the solve process I have described whereby one simple change to the ordering of the clues has allowed FF to architect his poem to make it harder than it really is once the architecture is understood.

    I Cannot Tell You = “I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several.”
    https://www.altereddimensions.net/2015/forrest-fenn-hidden-treasure-millions-dollars-hidden-gold-jewels-clues-treasure
    IMO – I find this ATF interesting for a couple of reasons. First, I think this is one of the instances where we need to consider the other 20% of the truth which may be missing from his answer. For me, I think the “I cannot tell you part” gets glossed over when someone reads the ATF. I think that FF cannot tell us because such would reveal too much about TTOTC. It would reveal too much because “certainly more than several” searchers can be an incredibly high number by my understanding of those words. In other words, if FF said 10,000 searchers (which is certainly more than several) have correctly identified the first clue, that reveals a heck of a lot more information than how he actually (seemingly?) responded. It is that possibility that has me wondering, due to the solve process I described here, how many people have already actually been to FF’s one and only hiding spot but arrived there in a manner less precise than how FF tells us to with his 9 clues? That is another profound concept whereby FF is silently enjoying the knowlege that many people have already enjoyed his hidey space without them even knowing it.

    Blueprint = “The solve is difficult for many searchers because their minds think the clues are tougher to decrypt than they really are. Until now I have resisted telling (searchers) to get back in the box where their thoughts are comfortable and flow more easily. The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can adjust.”
    http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-and-weekly-words-from-forrest-fenn-get-back-in-the-box/
    IMO – This speaks directly to the point that the architecture of the poem is what makes the solve a difficult but not impossible thing to do. Once you understand the various levels of complexity that can result from simply moving the goal of TTOTC to the first clue position, and adjust how you read the poem based upon those complexities described in my process, it really does boil down to a simple and safe walk through a dead-end canyon.

    If the Person Reads the Poem Over and Over = “If the person reads the poem over and over and are able to decipher the first few clues in the poem, they can find the treasure chest.”
    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EsTdZRwnydw&t=312s
    IMO – here we have another example of FF’s use of a word with ambiguity, namely “few.” Few is a word that I always self-defined as three or more because one means one, a couple means two, a few means three to six, several means seven or slightly more, etc. However, if you look up the definition of few, one such has it as “not many but more than one.” This definition leaves open the possibility that two clues is what FF meant when he said “decipher the first few clues”, and within the solve process I described, deciphering the first two clues leads to uniquely different understanding of how to solve TTOTC.

    I will close Epilogue 1 with this thought: FF was a fighter pilot. Out of his 328 combat missions that he flew (https://www.businessinsider.com/forrest-fenn-fortune-hidden-rocky-mountains-2017-2 ), how many do you suppose he STARTED without FIRST knowing what his OBJECTIVE was BEFORE he TOOK OFF in his fighter plane?

    Until next time.

    Bowmarc

    • Bowmarc,

      I haven’t read everything you’ve posted here on this thread as I haven’t been receiving email notifications for it to keep me up to speed I don’t think I was subscribed). But I did just read one thing in this last post that gave me a little chuckle in light of the extensive posting you have done here.

      “it really does boil down to a simple and safe walk through a dead-end canyon.”

      Again, I didn’t read everything posted before this, but I have to chuckle that after all you have written, it leads you to a dead end! 🙂

      By no means am I laughing at your conclusion, just the irony of the words knowing what you’ve gone through in sharing how you got there! Plus I may have been exchanging puns on odds and ends, so that particular line here gave me a good chuckle.

      Without reading over how exactly you got to this particular line, I would say a dead-end canyon seems like a reasonable description of the sort of canyon we may be looking for.

      Still, if I were to ask you where has all of this led? And you replied, “A dead end.” I have to laugh at the irony!!!!!

      While I personally haven’t struggled with a likely description of the latter portions of the poem, I was wondering if in your expose above you discussed pinning down WWWH. Seems there would be more than one dead-end canyon in the Rockies, and likely more than one with a WWWH (and maybe even a HOB).

      If you did discuss it above apologies for not having taken the time to read over it. If you could provide a short synapsis here, that would not only be welcome but preferable. No need to identify your WWWH if you do not wish to. I am more interested in the approach to determining it, such as placing all WWWH on pieces of paper and pulling one from a hat! 🙂 Yes I am joking. Looking forward to your reply.

      All IMO.

      -Ann

      • @ Ann – I’ve said a lot on this thread and you’ll have to read it all and take from it what you will from what I have already provided. WWWH, IMO, is revealed by gathering all the ingredients of the cake we are all trying to bake.

        • Bowmarc,

          As long as it is a chocolate cake I am in!!! I will see about reading everything on the thread. There sure is a lot! I suppose I just was wondering if you thought WWWH was a junction, or a geyser, or the like. I have described elsewhere why I don’t like WWWH being a junction, though I never rule out a possibility. And despite the chuckling, I do imagine we are looking for the sort of dead end canyon (or creek) you came to conclude. For now though, my focus has been on WWWH. Thanks again for sharing and looking forward to some cake! Yum! All IMO.

          -Ann

        • Yeah, you got the possessive pronouns. You also have quite a few contractions. The apostrophy in each one symbolizing ownership. Even some of the verbs (give, take) So maybe that’s what we should be paying attention to. For instance, maybe it’s not important who Brown is but that they own the home. Maybe the clues all point to the same concept. There’s quite a few places in Montana that have “my” in the title (My Creek, My Lake, etc.) I wonder if one of them could be where the chest is?

          • NoName,

            I am imagine the language used tends to lean toward the possessive spectrum because of the nature of the purpose of the poem. It’s a set of instructions on how to get to the chest. If had been for something else, say just a scenic description of a particular view, I imagine the language would be quite different. More adjectives and textures as opposed to nouns and instructions/possession.

            But, as you point this out it is important to understand that in terms of trying to figure out what the poem means. So great observation.

            All IMO.

            -Ann

          • Yeah, I’m starting to believe the message is hidden is hidden in the poem. If you don’t need special knowledge and you can find it with just the poem, how else could he do it?

          • NoName,

            I like the Fennien idea of looking up the nouns in the poem to see what they mean. This may help us ascertain various possible means the poem could have. Perhaps one combination catches your attention and makes more sense in terms of pinning down a location. If not, you can always try an alternate combination.

            I’m not suggesting some elaborate code or cipher here, just exploring the possible definitions FF had at his disposal when constructing the poem. If he chose the words carefully, then he must have had a reason right?

            What helps us understand words better than their definitions. Otherwise what’s the point of using words at all when he could have just as easily had a map drawn with Spanish phrases on it that would lead us to One-Eyed Willie! Sorry, I can’t but use that analogy whenever I get the chance.

            So if you get stuck on a particular line in the poem or settling on what you think one of the lines most likely means, just go back, reread the poem and maybe try a different set of definitions.

            At some point you have to find out which meaning best suits what you think FF is trying to tell us in terms of a location. That will likely coincide with finding such a location to go check out. If you like the interpretation you come up with but cannot find a suitable location to explore then perhaps that is not the right interpretation.

            I think when you have both a satisfactory interpretation and a suitable location to match, then you likely have a good place to put BOTG. I don’t think we’ll know about correctness until we actually go out and look.

            He or she who finds the chest will also find confirmation. He or she who doesn’t will have found a way not to go about finding the chest. Thus my interest more in how people are thinking as opposed to what they are thinking. The way one thinks is much more telling than what one thinks.

            Have you ever been in the company of someone and just wondered what they were thinking? If you were to ask and they were to reply something like : “That cloud looks funny.” you’d likely be surprised (as that is not a response you were likely expecting) and intrigued (as you would likely want to know which cloud they are talking about (if there is more than one) and why they think it looks funny).

            If they had told you why that second cloud from the left (and pointed to it) looked funny because it reminds them of a dog they used to have that always made them laugh by it’s playful antics, you would know a great deal more about what they had been thinking than just “That cloud looks funny.”

            Maybe you will find something said here helpful. All IMO.

            -Ann

  51. 42’s list of 9 clues:

    1. The State
    2. The County
    3. Scale = 36 a.k.a Townships; exact square mile is noted in poem
    4. Longitude/Latitude general
    5. The Highway you turn off
    6. The “place” (canyon, basin/noteworthy geographical feature)
    7. The Spot (within 9 feet)
    8. The Blaze
    9. Cheat confirmations

    My format of 9 clues should work for anyone in any state. The key is where to begin. If you are at 9 feet, the poem is a very exacting map.

    *All offered as my opinion.*

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