Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixty Nine

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Thanks…

 

dal…

626 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Sixty Nine

  1. I have my solve and set out a few weeks ago but only to get snowed put just 1 hr before my arrival. Next May it is. Any other searchers our here in Las Vegas Nevada?

  2. Iowaengr,

    I just read your post on the last odds and ends.
    Sure, as you described, a name could be affiliated with WWH or any clue. The problem I have is; was that named place the same to start with or change over time? Was the name in another language originally and is now know by its English version of it? It was only a short time ago when the states we are looking at had different boundaries and called by different titles, most were not even states just a short time ago, but territories or tribal lands . So, If fenn was thinking down the road as many ages he stated… he would most likely thought about; a named clue may not be the same in a 1000 plus years, or otherwise why think that far down the road if you don’t consider it.

    Is this search, this challenge, was it only meant for this generation or the very next?
    I think that is why fenn made the comment about “comprehensive knowledge of geography might help” and the idea of GE as a good map. When in the far out-reach areas of anywhere USA… I’m not seeing a map… I see waterways, woodland, plains, meadows, hills and mountains etc [like you would on a satellite image or far above in a plane] and all without names [titles] if you really think about it.
    Naming something is normally for a quick reference so another knows what and where you’re talking about. IMO the poem is only of descriptions of the land told as; what is seen, not by what its titled. However, we do have hoB capitalized, right? In that case, it might not be a name so much, as a representation of a symbol for any give location; not unlike the USA Bald Eagle. Whether or not it needs to be capitalized as a name, it would be capped as a Title for something.
    Such as; when talking about ‘a king’ it’s not capped, but calling someone ‘King’ is… yet, that is not that persons name.

    LOL.. I’m just not digging names for clues… but, they could be.

    • Thanks for the reply, Seeker. As I tend to agree with you regarding names being a rabbit hole, let’s try another pathway forward.

      Line 5 instruction: begin it . . .
      Interpretation: path through poem only via letter grid . . .
      Location implied: line 9 . . . Its (after there)
      Rationale: shot (warm liquid) is there moving upward if poem letters are left justified coupled with concept that shot becomes hot if s removed plus apostrophe (nail) it’ sno(w) (as heard) implies that warm water halts when it gets hot and/or freezes . . . So this is an identifiable place that warm waters can truly halt in a way few would consider at all.

      Your thoughts on this puzzle solving technique and answer appreciated.

      • My only ‘personal’ thoughts is, can this method be usable throughout the poem? or only for a single clue.
        I guess what I’m asking is; no matter what method [any method] we can come up with, wouldn’t need to be the same throughout method for the entire process. The reason I don’t see this idea happening is, removing letter or even adding letter [from one word to another] to a printed word simply because of the sound of the word or words changes meanings of those words [ in some cases ]

        IDK, it just seem to take away from the idea of fenn looking up words and “definitions” of words… changing words along the way until the poem was the way he wanted.
        The comment I’m referring to is;
        “I looked up words and definitions of words and changed them, went back and rebooted [ I assume fenn means googling words, rather than, using a dictionary book ] It turned out [ the poem ] exactly like I wanted…”

        Didn’t he just say; this was a major factor in creating the poem? Words and their meanings as shown in print.

        That’s just my perspective. The clues are presented in ‘poem’ form, and a poem’s main idea is to interpret what is being relayed by the words used.

        • Gotcha, Seeker. The path through the poem process can be extended quite easily, line by line movement through the letter grid is possible as explained above, but as you dislike it, let’s try another aporoach.

          Simple letter to number conversion w intent to impart a coordinate. For this to work, “Listen” could instruct searcher to apply Base 10. Another word, like “Blaze,” could control the wrap around nature of applying Base 10 to a 26 letter alphabet. Together these two would provide:

          C = 1, D=2, L= 10, M= 1, N=2, V=10, W=1, B=6, etc.

          A pair of letter strings could impart lat/long positions by simple substitution. And no matter how much I prefer that numeric key validation be provided, it does not have to be there.

          This pushes the boundaries of encoding, but secret information has to be imparted somehow. And so far, I’m completely unclear on how you believe that a very small box can be found using linguistics alone.

          The best that I can do mentally with any poetic reading only solution is a general area search, and that seems like a futile exercise given all the possible places that can be reasonably considered.

          Your thoughts appreciated as always.

          • Just my opinion. Read the poem, find a location it could work. Marry the clues. There is one that is critical IMHO. Edging out the hiding spot is difficult. I think it’s realistic that the box is now ‘covered’.
            And if you haven’t tied it all together, get a ball of string and start walking, when you run out of string, stop. Lol.

      • lowaengr,
        I saw you mentioned WWWH, I have two question to help you with that.

        1. Do you think Mr. Fenn would place a word in his poem that is defined by opinion?

        2. Do you think two or more people can agree on what warm water feels like or what temperature that might be?

        -B

        • Interesting questions, Birdie. While my answers are most certainly irrelevant to a successful search, I’ll bite.

          1) it depends. The most common definition of warm relates to temperature, so if you subscribe to that line of thinking, then, “Yes.” If you prefer a less common definition, like a warm color, and especially one defined as warm by experts (take yellow as an example), then, “No.” As for me, I tend to prefer neither of these. Rather, I see “W arm” or “W ar(e) M” because the higher order of difficulty thinking appeals to me more than either of the more mundane definitions cited.

          2) It’s unlikely. LOL!

        • BB –

          I think we agree.

          Warm cannot possibly refer to temperature, because warm is undefinable in terms of temperature.

          My wife takes a bath that feels scalding hot to me. SHe thinks my warm bath is cold.

          Lugnutz

          • Fenn was asked what warm means to him… comfortable. Right?
            OK how about this other comment; in part;
            “…Until now I have resisted telling them to get back in the box where their thoughts are comfortable and flow more easily.”

            Note ‘comfortable and flowing more easily.’
            Another searcher [ sorry can’t remember who ] said *waters that slow* or something to that effect, which reminded me of this comment.

            What could comfortable – easy – flow refer to, IF it refers to anything at all regarding the poem’s clues? And why would fenn have reservations on saying something about that, and/or getting back in the box?

            He’s repeated, “go back to the poem” a dozen times or more, the book has hints that will help with the clues just as many times or more…
            Whats warm and comfortable and easy flowing that lives in a box? LOL there ya go ken… riddle me that..lol

        • Birdie,
          I do not believe that FF would have used any word or phrase in the poem that is defined by opinion. I believe that if we apply the intended definition to the words there should be no guesswork involved. The poem should send us confidently to the TC. IMO

    • Seeker,

      I think it is possible that HOB is a natural forest fen, which does not have a name that in any way suggests Brown. But, a fen is the home of a brown soil-like substance called peat. It is a home that is a specialized ecosystem (a special place). If a natural forest fen is Forrest Fenn’s special place, then it would explain why FF’s name is so important to him and could suggest that the reason Brown is used with an upper case B, is that this special place actually represents Forrest Fenn himself. Fens can survive for hundreds or thousands of years.

      I recently learned something new about fens. You may recall that I’ve been saying for a while that I felt that HOB was in some way related to the sun. The sun is like a giant oven that “browns” everything it touches. In fact, our entire earth would burn up entirely if something didn’t “halt” the sun’s rays. Logic tells us what that something is. Interestingly, the peat that builds up in fen over hundreds or thousands of years, creating a special eco system that happens to be called a forest fen, happens to contain energy. Peat is used as fuel. Under pressure it can become coal. As in, “worth the cold” might be a process that produces coal. Effort= process (think natural process) , worth= substancial value, cold=coaled (process of coal formation) Basically, peat contains and “holds” energy from the sun to be used later as fuel or even to be “coaled”-turned into coal by a process under pressure (heavy loads).

      I still believe a fen is a HOB and now I know that the sun is important in the creation of peat which is the brown substance that makes up a fen.

      You may recall that peat is also a word that has other meanings. In the past it has been used to describe a young schoolboy (a child?) It also is a word used to represent an outhouse or bathroom (no need to dig up old outhouses).

      But, where is this fen? I htink I have a very good general solve, but not a specific one and I cannot proceed with confidence at this point.

      However; if I am right about HOB, then I am also right (I believe) about how WWH the burn from the sun’s rays.

      • Flutterby: I’m on board with your fen thoughts. Gotta correct one misconception though:

        “The sun is like a giant oven that “browns” everything it touches. In fact, our entire earth would burn up entirely if something didn’t “halt” the sun’s rays.”

        The earth would be a frozen iceball if it weren’t for our atmosphere and the resulting greenhouse effect. It is precisely because we have that atmosphere that our planet is habitable. (Counterexample: our Moon).

        • I like your train of thought regarding fens. My fluid math solution took me to a natural fen area east of Moon Lake, northeast of Grass Lake, and north of Moon Creek in the Fitzpatrick Wildernes this summer. No joy there, but it was an excellent adventure. I sent the solve in to Dal, but it was rejected for publication as being too obviously incorrect. But subjectively, my thought process for justifying the area linguistically ran similarly to your idea. Thanks for posting your thoughts.

      • Enjoyed that Flutterby, a nice sum-up of the basics. I’ve been looking at fens for some time. You’ll have to dig out details from online theses from different universities, etc. So that makes it pretty much ‘specialized knowledge’ …. but the basics are enough if you can locate the right fen. I’ve been looking for one in the Crazy mountains… “Brave and in the wood” led me to Plenty Coups, and, a lady that went mad. It seemed a clever but unlikely connection until I hit on another detail that lines up strongly with TTOTC. But still, a long shot which I will never be able to check out. Good luck. OS2.

        • OS2,
          I agree that we must avoid specialized knowledge. But I do think basic knowledge about fens is enough. I think FF’s writing is often very in depth with symbolism and I think the poem is also. But, I think we only need basics to solve the poem. The problem is that the symbolism that isnt needed, IMO creates rabbit holes and that is where people “leave the poem”

      • Flutterby,

        For what it’s worth… I do enjoy your savvy ways when you get a thought in your head, and you dig into it. But I lean toward Os2 and Zaps comments. While I think specialized anything is ‘advance’ or ‘expertise’ learning about something we’re not fully knowledgeable about is ok by me [in the challenge]. As Zap pointed out, the lack of atmosphere would be the major contributor for the Browning, idea..etc. I don’t see how the connection is made for the Brown [color] Earth, idea, It just doesn’t seem to fit the bill for how we decipher a clue for the use of ‘peat’ coal, energy… I mean, I create peat in my back yard using Banana skins [mostly] a couple of product [ apple cores ] leafs, hickory nuts[because I have tree the enjoy showering me with them], Llama crap [better crap than I can even dish out] etc. for my garden. The ‘heat’ [humidity] from the sun cooks the combined products. So I get the process…
        It just seems a bit of an over kill to know about… to get to the idea of a geographical location, such as a fen.

        And that is definitely ‘only my opinion.’

      • FB – I think your ‘confirmation’ using his ‘name’ as a hint is biased, remember, “the chapters in [the] book have VERY subtle hints, but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker”, your interpretation feels not very subtle and would have to be deliberate by FF…just my opinion.

        Have you watched any of the HOD videos where FF was discussing types of rock used for certain things? I think your idea of a geologic ‘process’ is a good one, in that he very much seems to know a lot about geology. I think this knowlege (of geologic processes, and where certain things are found) coupled with his passion for native American lore/antiques/etc. could potentially be an interesting way to interpret the poem…don’t have anything specific for you, just thinking.

        • Tbug,
          Actually, I didnt use the fact that FF mentioned the importance of his name as a hint. I only made the connection after considering geographical features that could be a WWH. The one I was interested in is a bog. If traffic gets bogged down, it stops or slows. So bog seemed like a potential WWH. I discovered that many bogs in Wyoming are not really bogs at all. They are fens. Somehow Wyoming catagorizes them (or did in the past) as being bogs. It was then that I realized a connection to FF saying his name was special.

          The problem I see is that many children would not know the word bog or fen, unless they grew up in an area were such things existed. Im now realizing that some places in Yosemite (near our home) are called meadows when they are actually bogs or fens. But, anyhow; it seems like something a kid would not necessarily know. It may be a symbolic idea written into FF’s writing, that isnt necessary to solve the poem. But, I do think its suggested in his writing. Lots of symbolism in his writing. It could be a college course!

          I do think that rock formations are important, but not from a geologic point of view. We are told that a comprehensive understanding of geography might help. So understanding geographical land formations is probably useful. Bogs happens to be one of them.

          Other land formations that could be a “halt” are a gap or a fault. Both are an interuption.

          All IMO

          • Flutterby, you said : “Actually, I didn’t use THE FACT that FF mentioned the importance of his name as a hint.” I think FF mentioned the importance of his name in the Jump Start story, but I don’t think he ever said it was a hint. I may have missed it, its a really ig miss if I did. Can you source it please. Thanks, OS2

      • Nitrogen is the reason the Earth doesn’t burn up (it’s far more abundant than oxygen, which is highly combustible). But that’s specialized knowledge.

        Still, the idea of a fen is interesting.

      • Maybe that’s why Forrest Fenn didn’t include his name as the author of the poem. That always seemed odd to me. Perhaps the X is by (a) forest fen.

  3. In my research I discovered a river once called Warm Creek but is now known by a different name. From there it flows into a canyon past the HOB, no place for the Meek and heavy loads. I have searched 4 times in this area and discovered that there are a million places where the Blaze could be. Coming from sea level and 78 years old with two artificial knees and a 20 lb drone backpack, I became exhausted after climbing up nearly 700 ft at an altitude greater than 5000 ft. But later I realized that Fenn lives at an altitude of about 7000 ft and was in much better shape in 2010 than I am. He could have easily hid the treasure in this area. I also have given environmental conditions more thought after returning. The chest probably isn’t water tight, Fenn may have made an effort to protect the chest from filling up from melting snow that would eventually wick in after years being exposed to the elements? Yes, I know gold isn’t bothered by water, but what about the other objects? Mason jar with his bio, (metal top), bracelet, etc. . That thought leads to more thinking as to where Fenn would secrete the chest and place it. He has said that “he never said it wasn’t buried ” or similar language. I did notice in two interviews he didn’t correct the interviewer when they used the words “BURIED” as he did at later times. I don’t think Fenn buried the chest deep in the ground, but he probably hid it someplace where it was protected from the weather, may have even wrapped it in a plastic bag to keep water out and covered it up with rocks to keep animals from disturbing it (large bears). On my last search I discovered a fresh bear kill. I also found (overhead) what could generously be called a Blaze, but I didn’t think of looking “down” under nearby rocks that may have been placed over the chest. I’m trying to decide whether or not to go back again “now that I’m tired and done it” .

  4. I was watching the Cody video yesterday and was reminded that Forrest liked to look out windows, all the time. That’s why he did poorly in school. In the TTOTC book he refers to looking out the window maybe 6 times.
    IMO, the way to find WWWH is to find the place where you can see what Forrest sees out the window.

    • Help me out, Eaglesabound

      What windows are you thinking?
      Home?
      A watchtower?
      A hotel room?
      Are you even talking about actual windows [glass?] or a metaphor for a viewing location?

      I mean, one could come up with the idea; that being on one side of the window vs. being on the other side, to mean, not being trap inside and wanting to be out in nature. The grass is green on the other side of the fence, line of thinking. The simple idea of having to do something [even forced to do it]… like learning in school the subject they want us to learn…vs… learning by experiencing in real life.

      If I related that to the chase; it might imply ‘being at WWH’ is more important than a simple deciphering of what it is. So, your idea of viewing through a window works for the reason we need to be “at” WWH… we may not be able to skip to the next [later] clues because we think we know what and where it is. But I’m not getting how a window works for “finding” WWH. Wouldn’t we need a clue just for that?

      • One of FF’s favorite artists built his studio with a window that was round on the outside and square on the inside. The model’s platform could be pushed to the window for natural light or to the fireplace for warm firelight effects. One wonders why a trained artist with an experienced eye couldn’t imagine such changes. Or why FF said Eric Sloane had to wait for the light to change.
        That artist, Sharp, also built a custom privy he called “Little Egypt”… which I think that was the same name of the guest quarters at Fenn’s Gallery, and the name used for the beautiful Gallatin River canyon before it was officially named. If you need the references, you’ll have to do the digging or maybe another poster will corroborate. OS2

    • The window is not only a portal, but it frames a picture. Windows and picture frames all have a ‘chase all around the edge. I dont think that is particularly useful information for the hunt, but I just like piling on. OS2

      • Clint-
        Go to the Media Coverage page on this blog. Since that is a very old video and the items on that page are listed chronologically, that video is down near the very bottom so scroll down..

          • Thank you for the link, Oz10. I’ll listen to it later this evening. I got to listen for a few minutes before it closed out on me. What I did hear was enjoyable.

        • Hi Dal where is the media coverage page or what is it.
          I looked on this page did not find it.

          • Hello Clint. On the right side of this page (or any other page you go on), you’ll see “Search the blog”. In the space, type in “Media Coverage”. From there, just find the link and it will get you to the page. You can use the “Search the blog” space and type in words you might find helpful in your search.

            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=p3Te6bt8upY

          • Hello Clint. On the right side of this page, you’ll find “Important Information”. Below that is “Most Important Info.”. Click on that one and it will lead you to different pages. Scroll down and you’ll see “Media Coverage”. This is the one you’re looking for. It will have different media coverages. I think they’re all enjoyable. Take the time to read or listen to them. I think you might find the same.

    • You know what Clint, Dal posted it the other day for another searcher so I’m not sure. Possibly you can search it in the search bar…2006 interview at the Buffalo Cody museum with FF. sorry I can’t be more help..

  5. So Seeker, you did read TTOTC?
    Pg 24/25…”.my father gave me a look and I mean REALLY a look. I was sure a window pane somewhere in Mississippi was about to break.”
    His father goes on to say, what have we learned….that’s our hint/clue..
    Go through the book and note everytime Forrest talks about looking out the window..
    Ex …Pg 41.what do we see out the windows in the book.

  6. hum….make all lines meet….
    lat ,,,long….gps….270 to 90 to….271 to 89…..
    hum…..i already know.

  7. Jake K –

    On your map the I-25 route is HWY 87. I don’t know why you are referring to that route as sketchy.

    Look at a map today that includes Temple and Yellowstone. The Eastern route looks obvious.

    He certainly may have travelled through Thermopolis and simply never have mentioned it to another soul as long as he has lived. You know how tight lipped and reticent to tell a story F is.

    Lug

    • Just a quick search of route 25…

      Interstate 25 History
      Segment Location/Description Completion
      Castle Rock to Denver Approximately 25 miles Completed in 1963
      Denver north 58 th Ave. to SH 7, 14 miles Completed in 1963
      North of Denver SH 66 to U.S. 34, 14 miles Completed in 1963
      Walsenburg Walsenburg Bypass Completed in 1964

      If these are at all accurate then parts of the route may not have existed in the 30’s and 40’s. Also in that time period, was there an “old route 25” and how well traveled was it?
      Point is; in the 30’s and 40’s the [ lack a better term ] ‘best’ route may have been different. The question is, did the always take the same route for 20 years?

      • All this time I thought I-25 was a rope with kids (exits) crossing over Colorado (Do not touch) .

      • Yes, Seek. The map under discussion here is one I posted in the just-closed Odds’n’Ends. There was a mini-discussion about the Fenn Family routes, and I thought it would make a useful visual aid. Here it is again:

        **** ** ** For Fenn Family Road Trip followers, here’s a (zoomable) 1937 Texaco road map covering from Colorado Springs in the south all the way to the Canadian Border in the north.

        https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~23818~920003:Road-map-Idaho,-Mont-,-Wyo-

        ** ** ** **
        There are many such highway maps available online from the ’30s – ’50’s and later (with a five-year gap in the ’40’s for WWII, when maps were kinda secret). Printed by Texaco, Sunoco, Gulf, Shell, Mobil etc to encourage driving (and therefore gas consumption).

        Jake

        • There may have been a gap for those ‘texaco’ maps, but the state itself still issued maps each year (for all those rest stops and tourist traps)…I found several from the early forties (don’t have the links, just saying they are out there).

        • Jake –

          I should have mentioned before that I have spent some quality rabbit hole time on the Rumsey maps!

    • Jake had said

      “No I-25 at the time, of course. Looks like 87 to Casper, and then 20 to Shoshoni, and from there on up through Thermopolis to Cody would be the ‘best-roads’ way to go.

      (The roads west through the Big Horns from Sheridan or Buffalo to Cody look a little sketchier.)”

      I interpret this to mean that he believes the Fenns would have headed west off 87 at Casper and not remain on it up to Sheridan or Buffalo.

      (Frankly, since f mentions his spat with Skippy while riding with him between Shoshoni and Casper, I’ve always figured that the family route took them through Shoshoni.)

    • ** ** ** Lug wrote – “On your map the I-25 route is HWY 87. I don’t know why you are referring to that route as sketchy.
      Look at a map today that includes Temple and Yellowstone. The Eastern route looks obvious.” ** ** **

      aard’bark answered your “sketchy route” question for me.

      As to “look at a map today”, well, why not also look at a map from when they were actually making the trips too? These highway maps were printed by the big oil companies to encourage and facilitate auto travel, and were readily available at gas stations.

      I’m not arguing one way or the other for any particular route, just providing a sample of the tools available at the time.

      Maybe Fenn the Elder had a particular reason to go north and then west through the Big Horns (even if not the *optimal* route); maybe he just hated to ask for directions, and wouldn’t be caught dead with a gas station map.

      Quite possibly, too, they went different ways at different times. By the late ’40’s, for example, the 287 route through Lander to Jackson Lake looks much more viable than it does on the 1937 map.

      https://www.davidrumsey.com/luna/servlet/detail/RUMSEY~8~1~212163~5500260:Shell-Highway-Map-of-Wyoming-?sort=pub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_date%2Cpub_list_no%2Cseries_no&qvq=q:shell%20highway%20wyoming;sort:pub_list_no_initialsort%2Cpub_date%2Cpub_list_no%2Cseries_no;lc:RUMSEY~8~1&mi=2&trs=4

      Jake

      • I too concluded that the ‘best’ route was defined by paved vs. gravel. However, with the 2006 BBM interview, we know they weren’t traveling very fast (30 mph), but I’d still argue the dust, rough ride and tire issues (rationing) would have probably made them stick to paved roads. However, we all can agree that they probably did take different routes, if nothing else for the change of scenery. 287 over Togwotee pass is a fairly steep climb, so a vehicle with sub 100 hp and 5 people and their stuff might not have done real well on that road, IMO.

        • Tbug — I had missed your Wind River Canyon solve last summer. Thank you for posting link in previous O&E thread. I enjoyed it and much of the discussion it generated.

          • you’re welcome aardy…its a long one but I was focused on thought processes…if I get a chance one day I will go look, its a funny area. If you’re into Wyo rabbit holes check these out (just fun, not necessarily good relations to the chase):

            natural trap cave, hell gap, high rise village, Ames monument, ayers natural bridge, devils gate, miracle mile, savery creek and one of my current favorites, castle gardens.

        • Tbug –

          My father NEVER changed a route. Weather driving to Wisconsin, Florida or Colorado, he ALWAYS drove the exact same route.

      • Jake –

        I am saying look at the whole map. A map that shows the entire route and the states traversed.

        I think when you do that, the eastern route is the obvious route.

        • Lug, for all I know they drove north all the way to Sioux Falls SD before turning west towards Yellowstone.

          I shared a couple observations on Cheyenne-to-Cody routes in those days, which apply whether they got near Cheyenne/Laramie from Denver or from Omaha. No agenda behind those observations, they’re just non-load-bearing odds’n’ends on Fenn Family Travels.

          I have no idea what you mean by “the eastern route”.

          Jake

          • he means instead of through/over the mountains…287 or hwy 40 (CO) over to Utah and up…I think…in other words, he means up through casper is the shortest/best/most paved

          • jake –

            We started talkng abut the route because Faulker said he doesn’t agree with JDA.

            JDA thinks Fenn has spent lots of time in the area he searches. I have never seen any evidence of that. I have never read anything at all where Fenn mentions anything south and/or west of the areas we are discussing in this thread.

            I don’t know what route they took but I know he never says a word about the Tetons for example.

            Cheers!

          • Lugz ~’JDA thinks Fenn has spent lots of time in the area he searches. I have never seen any evidence of that.’

            I don’t know what JDA meant, However, fenn did say he wrote the poem from memory… didn’t use a map.
            You would have to think he knew the place well, and should have been there a good number of times to do that.
            The problem is, we may never know ‘when’ fenn came across this location… it could have been when he moved to NM, or any given trip in his plane… It could have been ‘any time’ during the 1930s up to 1988… But he knew the place well enough to actually turn it into a ‘precise’ hunt to be followed.

            I don’t know why we would even consider a route that has only an ‘approx’ mileage [1600] to go by… because all four states would still have possibilities, even IF the chest would be in MT or WY. line of thinking.

          • Seeker;

            Like everyone, I am just guessing about whether Forrest spent a lot of time in my area as a boy. I know for a fact that he spent “some” time in my area as an adult. It didn’t take a lot of research to verify this fact. JDA

        • Watchout Lug!
          JDA has FACT info that Forrest has been in his search area as an adult. I think JDA has spent more time there than Fenn, not that it may matter.

          • Hi Flutterny;

            I did not state what the FACT was – just that I know for a FACT that Forrest has been in my search area, and that it did not take much research to discover this FACT – JDA

          • JDA,
            Thanks for clearing up that you know FF has been in your search area.

            Interestingly, I think I may have figured out how FF knows for sure that the treasure has not yet been found. I cant prove it, but found it to be an interesting piece of information.

  8. Going to try and post this again, but without the link. I haven’t been working on the treasure hunt, or the website, much for about the past month due to working on our Game of Thrones themed halloween decorations. It was a nice break after the summer searches, but time to get back at it. Well after we take everything down starting tomorrow. If you want to see our house search on youtube for: Lake Scary Lane Halloween Game of Thrones 2018

    • Very cool Aaron, that you put so much into decorating for Halloween. We’ve been sidetracked too. We anticipate over 1,000 trick-or-treaters this year due to our elaborate yard display. Lots of fun!

    • Nice GoT-themed Halloween display, Aaron! Hey: I’ll be in San Diego (La Jolla) a week from today (11/7) for an afternoon meeting. If you’re interested/available, maybe we could grab a beer or two at Green Flash (or wherever’s convenient) after work. (Northbound traffic is a nightmare from 5-7 pm, so I usually opt to kill time at one of the many S.D. breweries until it clears out.)

      • Thanks Zap. Meeting for a beer sounds good. I actually work in La Jolla and sometimes wait out the 5 south traffic after. Email me: aarons619atgmaildotcom

        • Hugh Farted –

          I have friends going to some fest this weekend and I think its at Coronado Brew or sponsored by them.

          They are flying in so it must be some big deal.

      • Thanks FD, it was fun last night. Now debating on whether to take down the giant or make him into a Santa Claus.

        • OMG. Your decorations are awesome, Aaron! Did you see the article that came out today? HBO is doing a GoT Prequel series in 2020, same author, 10,000 years before the current GoT.

          • Thank you Lady V. Yes I did see the news. Super excited about it and the new book coming out this month 🙂

    • Wow, that’s incredible! I’m surprised it only took you a month to do all that. Wonderful — you should win some kind of contest.

      • Thanks Linda. It was a month of working three day weekends on it between my wife and I. We have decided to turn the 14′ giant into a giant santa clause 🙂

  9. I was reading someone else’s comments the other day. It might have been something Dal wrote, about WWH possibly having something to do with the Firehole River and where it empties into some other body of water. As you can see, I really don’t recall what it said, but it prompted me to look something up and I actually learned a few interesting things. I have not been in the camp that thinks that where one body of water enters another that it actually “halts”. But, now I may have to rethink that. I haven’t decided yet.

    Here is what I learned about water flow. “Streams (any flow of water within a natural channel regardless of size) are the most important kinds of channel flow that affect landscapes. A stream’s headwaters are where the stream originates, usually in the higher elevations of mountainous terrain. The stream flows downhill and across lower elevations to its TERMINUS, where it enters another stream, lake, or ocean. This terminus is called the mouth of the stream. That info seems fairly basic except for the word terminus which I had never seen before. Had to look that up.

    Merrriam-Webster gives these definitions of terminus.
    Definition of terminus
    1 : either end of a transportation line or travel route
    also : the station, town, or city at such a place : TERMINAL
    2 : an extreme point or element : TIP the terminus of a glacier
    3 : a final goal : a finishing point
    4 : a post or stone marking a boundary

    “This word comes straight from Latin. In the Roman empire, a terminus was a boundary stone, and all boundary stones had a minor god associated with them, whose name was Terminus. Terminus was a kind of keeper of the peace, since wherever there was a terminus there could be no arguments about where your property ended and your neighbor’s property began. So Terminus even had his own festival, the Terminalia, when images of the god were draped with flower garlands. Today the word shows up in all kinds of places, including in the name of numerous hotels worldwide built near a city’s railway terminus.”

    So I find this info about terminus to be very interesting. While I would not consider one stream entering another to be the end of the flow of water, it is actually the end of that body of water. The water may continue to flow but one stream ends and another begins. The stream terminates or halts at that point. That point is also a boundary (think Border).

    I think one thing that has me seriously hung-up on WWWH is that supposedly a child would know. This leaves me thinking that it has to be something more creative than one stream merging into another. I have come across one body of water that the definition often mentions that children are drawn to it. It is the word puddle. But, technically water doesn’t stop moving. It does “hold” in a puddle and halt comes from the word halten which can mean to hold. Remember that FF just wanted to “hold” a couple of books in the bookstore. Since halt comes from the word halten, can the defintion of halten be used which would mean that we need a place warm waters hold? I don’t know. But, I know that children are drawn to puddles and every dictionary where I look up puddle, states that children are drawn to puddles.

    This is probably why I work on three solves at the same time. Because each has a compelling WWH and HOB, but each are different.

    • Again FLutterby, I like it, especially FF just wanting to “hold” the books (brooks?) could be he just wanted to “take it in”.

      • OS2 on your above Windows and or pictures you are getting there ,think of the Rosetta Stone and how it unlocked the EGYPTIAN Hieroglyphs.CLINT

    • Happy Halloween Ken! Now is the best time for someone to find the treasure! Tomorrow just run to all the retail stores and buy up their discounted plastic skeletons and then leave them in place of the TC. You would definitely know who got second place then…or…maybe not. I guess just stick to decorating our own yards.

      From National Treasure, “Because it’s important”, starts with a B and I find that odd.

      • Like anything else, pacifers have changed over the years. I’m sure the one that spewed out of the geyser was unique to that time period.

      • Jeff-
        One of the ways an item such as a pacifier can be dated is the material it’s made from. Bakelite was an early plastic material first produced in the early 1900s. Modern plastics were not commonly produced until around WWII. A typical 1920s-1930s pacifier body would most likely have been manufactured out of bakelite. Today, bakelite items are considered “collectible” by many.
        Another way a pacifier could be dated would be by the manufacturers name and/or patent number molded into the body. Many companies that manufactured baby items in the 30’s went bust during the depression years leading up to WWII.
        Many catalogs still exist that show detailed images of items made by manufacturers and sold by companies like Sears and Montgomery Wards.It can be pretty simple to match an object to its image from a catalog…which would also date the item.
        There are many collectors of 30’s and 40’s toys and baby playthings. Most of these items can be easily dated to within a few years of their manufacture.

  10. heres a thought suppose that as i listen to john Denver rocky mountain high you think no one will know who he is, like cary, gran IN THE FUTURE or our. foot print will not be known in the future where will we be no where but FENN, WILL BE THERE BECAUSE HE LEFT A LEGACY TO BE THOUGHT ABOUT AS TO US NOT A SECOND THOUGHT. UNLESS WE CAN SOME HOW LEARN FROME THIS MAN. THIS IS A VERY IMPORTANT STEP IN ALL OUR JOURNIES, HOPE HES OK IM CONCERNED i

  11. thees nothing like sun shine or rocky mountain high by john denvrt they take me places i want to be and i say so has fenn because the mountains and every thing in them are full of beauty. ty mr fenn for your spirt of living; jeff burch and crew titan mom me and ranee love it all.

  12. i can live being forgotten id rather not but memoious are ment to be forgot i can say for future readers i loved this world and every thing i experienced on it the meek must go up.

  13. “Stop arm chairing that thing to death and get out in the trees where the box is, but before you go, look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions.”
    The discussions about travel maps and the possible routes Fenn’s family may have traveled conjured up this quote for me. Which way the Fenn’s went to YS is interesting… but I am more interested about a different map… the one in that poem.
    Gotta have trees where the box is and before you leave you can consult the poem for the directions.

    • That comment that made me think a poem is a person and a map is a face.

      In the end only kindness matters.

    • Ken,

      Let’s just for a very small moment that I found the tc and offered up a hand drawn map with lines only, I would think it would take a very long time for someone to find, lets say $50k that I left behind where the tc was originally hidden.

      Just Hypothetically Say’n

  14. A rather intriguing quote from today’s Esquire Magazine article on Forrest Fenn:

    “He estimates that he receives around 100 emails a day from people asking for extra hints, or telling him they’re close, or even that they’ve found it. He scans them for two or three key words, which he says, ‘has happened three times. Three people have said key words. I never heard from them again! But they haven’t found the treasure.'”

    • I’ve seen a statement similar to this but this is a more pointed version. What the heck could those words be? In the previous similar statement that I have heard, I believe he said something about looking to see if anyone mentions a certain location, not sure though.

      If he gets 100 emails a day over 8 years, that would be close to 300,000 emails. Yet only 3 people have mentioned these key words. Can’t be words in the poem.

        • I kinda feel the same way, Aaron.
          The comment about the first four clues solved… hasn’t seem to developed in folks getting ‘closer’ just words being spoken. Even the ‘gut feeling’ didn’t pan out.

          It has to make ya wonder with deciphered clues being ‘mentioned’ and folks being close [physically] to the chest if the poem is just not being read the way fenn intended. OR we [300,000 searchers est.] just can’t read maps or take directions.

    • Hey Zap…the Esquire article is interesting. The photo of Fenn sitting there with a shovel leaning against the wall is fitting for the story about ” The Hole”. Some folks just can’t believe they are wrong… at any cost.

        • yep…and you can bet others have dumped that and more thinking they’re not wrong. “…it won’t be a big job…” comes to mind.

          • Depends on the soil. When I dug my pond, which is only about 4 feet deep and about 9′ x 4′, I had to rent a jackhammer because the dirt was so hard. It took all day.

      • I wonder what Forrest thinks of the article’s title: “Lost in America: The Man Who Buried a Treasure Chest and the Thousands Searching for it”? Usually he can’t stand it when journalists claim he buried it, and yet there it is in bold letters — with a shovel leaning against the wall behind him for good measure.

        • That was my first thought too. I surprised he allowed them to take the picture with him next to the shovel. My guess is they didn’t tell him what the title would be, and let him know they would be talking about the digging searcher.

          • Zap –

            I have come to believe, and maybe you have too, that NONE of the stories are true.

            No ball of string
            No grave marker
            No gypsies
            No children on a rope
            Never flew Montgomery to an airport
            Never played bingo in the rain
            Has never been to a Borders branded bookstore.
            Never roped a bull and tied it to a car of course.

            This is all in the spirit of the Tall Tale. Something to wrap the poem in.

        • Zap –

          It makes me very happy that this reporter mentioned the miraculous brandy bottle that contains the same amount of liquid no matter how many people drink from it!

        • Lug, Forrest wrote:
          “Besides, non-fiction writers don’t have to be right but eighty-five percent of the time and everyone knows that.”

          Are you saying that you think the whole book is fiction? I tend to think it’s only somewhat embellished.

          Either way, it still has clues.

          • Linda

            The stories are true in that they include actual places, people and events but the content is fiction.

            Opinions follow

            He was shot down in the VN war. There was no inscription in English on a grave marker.

            He collected string. The ball of string was not so large that it wouldn’t fit out the door.

            He played marbels. He didn’t make them from agate with a piece of sandstone under his desk.

            He was never pulled by a bull while sitting in a car.

            He didn’t shoot meadowlark for food.

            Gypsies didn’t camp near his house.

            Etc

      • He must not have seen FF’s comment about “It is not necessary to move large rocks…”, let alone dig a hole that big that is full of them.

        2 trips in one afternoon also comes to mind, and even if you consider the argument that such 2 trips weren’t done in the same day, but encompassed 2 different days, i’m thinking FF must have spent 15 years planning to bury Indulgence if it was that deep and marked by such large timbers, etc. Factor in FF’s age as well, and I’m thinking he is also an expert at using explosives, which is what he must have used to cover it all back up with such precision in only 1 (or 2) afternoon(s).

        To beat a dead horse, “No need to look for the treasure in a place where a 79 or 80 year old man couldn’t go…” didn’t deter this guy before digging such a hole?

        $30,000 wasted unnecessarily.

        IMO

        • I think he has some digging skills and should help those guys out on Oak Island after he gets out of jail. Still waiting for lucky #7.

    • Just working off what you posted Zap { a statement about cookies block my screen }

      IF accurate as quotes… “I never heard from them again” is interesting. As well as “Three people have said key wordS.” kinda smacks the idea of a single magical word that will break the whole thing wide open.

      I’m gonna need to look over the original quote… It may have only referred to the first two clues or just the first clue.
      Yet I recall fenn saying something similar about the emails; he reads and ‘looks’ for key word in those e-mail.. At the time I thought he may have meant ‘deciphered wordings’ rather than wordS that are throughout the poem..

      Good catch.

      • Don’t worry, Zap knows which 3 keywords ff is talking about. Prolly also knows who those 3 people are as well.
        🙂

        • Oz10 — just to be clear, I’m jesting. I have no idea who the other two are. I’m just glad there are *only* two others. 😉

      • Oz10: I’m not intrigued by Forrest’s scanning emails for 2 or 3 key words. Rather, I find myself pondering as Arthur Eddington did in 1919 (responding to the claim that only three people alive understood General Relativity): “Who’s the third?” 😉

      • Zap, weren’t you saying that you still email FF? If so, seems he may be talking to you and others…he hasn’t heard from the 3 who had something correct…and what would be the first important thing he would look for…WWWH obviously…and clue 2, maybe 3…so circle back on it all…nail wwwh down…then something with the next clues is very important that people have walked by/left the poem.

        • Well, if he is just scanning for key words he doesn’t really have to scan for clues 2 and 3 because those emails should also contain WWWH. My guess is WWWH and 1 or 2 other things. One possibly being the word that is key.

          • Ha! I’m still wondering what a long email is. {argh! Ya’ll can stop laughin now}

            I’m not as paranoid as Zap… but I don’t email fenn either. Only I did send him a yeller posty note once. But I forgot what I said.

            Ha! that could be new contest;
            In 9 words, what did the note say? The winner who gets the closest to what was written, gets Jake’s hat. It has about the same amount of crap on that hat, as the note probably has.

            Or we all can send fenn yeller posty notes with 9 key words… the winner who get closest with the most correct key words, could get an arrow head or those Zebra boots… anything but Jakes’ hat…he saving it for when the trove is found, by another.

          • Jeeper’s Seekers.

            I’m watching the rest of this crappy NFL game.
            There’s 9 words above if you count NFL as a word and I’m as one.
            See where this is going?

          • Jake: hilarity: we agree a second time. Two of the worst teams in the NFL “battling it out” on Thursday Night. Which channel is Dancing with the Stars?

        • Tbug: we know plenty of people have figured out WWWH. Since only 3 people have emailed Forrest the two or three key words that he’s looking for, it seems pretty clear to me that WWWH is not what Forrest is talking about … or at most it is only one part of what he’s scanning for.

          I would never email Forrest the critical words he’s looking for unless it was in some coded fashion that only he would recognize. Email is not secure.

          • Zap;

            Let’s day that Forrest is looking for a particular name of a place – like West Yellowstone. That would not have to be coded.

            This is just an example, I am sure that West Yellowstone is NOT one of the key words. It is just an example of how it would not have to be coded – JMO – JDA

          • I’m not sure Forrest would waste his time trying to figure out someones coded message seeing he doesn’t read long emails. Maybe if you create a crossword puzzle LOL.

            3 people in all these years tells me it’s about where the treasure is specifically and has nothing to do with all the other clues.

            2-3 key words tell me nothing cause most specific places are 2 words like Ojo Caliente, West Yellowstone, Rio Grande etc… and most obvious places have been mentioned thousands of times.

          • Jake: for once I’ll actually agree with you: I believe the words Forrest is scanning for are endgame words, not the starting point. Further, I believe they are geographically specific and sufficiently precise that Forrest would knowo thay anyone mentioning them was fairly close to solving the whole shmeal.

          • I only partially agree with Jake and Zap that what f scans for are endgame words, not the starting point.

            I think it’s both. I think the few key words provide both.

          • Zap,
            We have actually agreed on other things in the past before our spat. Don’t let a disagreement or few let you forget what was agreed upon earlier.

            I don’t hold grudges.
            Unless you did something bad to my family which I know you are not the type. You’re an explorer like most here.

            Hey, we think it’s in SW Montana, right?

          • Hi Jake: yes, I was exaggerating for a bit of sarcastic/humorous effect. We’ve certainly agreed on a number of aspects of the Chase before, not least the state that the chest resides.

            As for crossword puzzles, yes — Forrest enjoys them, but like you I am more than skeptical that they play any part in solving the poem. The takeaway, rather, should be that Forrest clearly enjoys wordplay — he utilizes alliteration all the time, plus Spoonerisms. So it is not unreasonable to consider that he might have done the same with his poem, or elements of the solution to his poem.

    • Sounds possible that the 3 words have a connection of some kind like ingredients in a recipe.

    • The three words that’ll get me to read an e-mail all the way through every time –

      “Hey, good lookin’ . . . “

    • Thanks for sharing the news about the article, Zap. My guess would be that he is scanning the emails for the names of specific places.

      I also liked this quote from the article that I’ll file away: “If I’ve got two days to live, take me out under a tall pine tree way out in the forest, leave me a bottle of water, and go on back to town. I don’t need you anymore. That’s what the old Indians used to do, the people who couldn’t travel. They left them by the trail there.”

      One other item that popped out to me: “…and an abridged version of his autobiography, printed in tiny type and sealed in a bronze jar….” I thought that the written copy of the poem in the chest was supposed to be stored inside of an old glass olive jar? Am I mistaken on this?

      • Hi Blex: I think the writer confused the copy of the autobiography Fenn put in the chest inside the olive jar with the copies he’s been putting in his bronze jars and burying.

        • Each bronze jar I buried contains only my autobiography that is encased in a moisture proof glass container. Today I would be unable locate any of my buried jars or bells. My hope is that some romantic historian will happen upon one of them in the year 12,016, and think that Forrest Fenn was not just a passer-by to life. f

    • “You’re going to jail, you know that,” said Fenn.

      “I know it,” said Conway, grimly. “We’ll be there together.”

      “Maybe we could play canasta together?” offered Fenn, but Conway did not crack a smile.
      LOL
      🙂

        • That dude deserves jail time and needs a serious mental evaluation.
          Seeing there are all sorts of crazy people getting involved and the base for “searchers” keeps growing, I will go ahead and say that someone will get murdered and Forrest will have Shilo get the chest within the next 5 years if Forrest is still alive.

          Who knows, Forrest may give a envelope to Shilo with the location before he passes that can be opened only when someone is murdered now that Forrest said it.

          I just wish Forrest would give some big hints before the crap hits the fan more than it already has.

          “But I’ve told myself if somebody’s murdered because of the treasure, then I’ll shut it down. That’s going too far.”

          • I’ve visualized many different scenarios throughout the years and that ugliest one has played out in my mind a few times.

          • Jake,
            It really is sad, in a disgusting way, that fenn would have worried about such an act, over a challenge, invented for the purpose of exploring what is out there to be found, to be out in nature and find things of interest and past times.

            Greed and Obsession goes hand and hand with Crazy.
            Archeology; the study of human history and prehistory through the excavation of sites and the analysis of artifacts and other physical remains; science that studies people and animals from the past and the things they leave behind in order to gain a better understanding of their lives.

            I wonder what people will think of these times, our actions and developments as humans beings [or lack of] if the chest is discovered in 3009 or beyond?

          • Mr. Fenn’s comment about the year 3009 has been on my mind ever since he said this. I keep wondering if there’s something to it. I know he is an artistic individual with the way he says things. It may mean nothing at all.

          • Pdenver—
            Interesting the year 3009 isn’t it? It is strange Forrest would pick that number. But I am not really involved in the Chase much any more. But let me share something about 3,009.

            Please Google “Thermopolis” and see what the census says for Thermopolis in 2010— the year Forrest m ay have hid the Treasure.

            It may surprise you.

          • Hello Sparrow. Thank you for the suggestion. I did so and there it was. My family and I have driven through the town nearly every time we’ve returned from Yellowstone, but I don’t recall ever stopping.

          • Sparrow we need to look hard at this area! The TC needs to be found and I have been looking at this area for the last year or so and it fits PERFECTLY! I know JDA has mentioned some things about how a Glacier could have something to do with the solve due to it’s possible extinction per se’. Let’s not get greedy and just ban together and find this thing. Forrest said it could be retrieved any time of year…think about it???

            Thermopolis is the largest town in Hot Springs County, Wyoming, United States, and also the county seat.[6] As of the 2010 census, the town population was 3,009.

            Thermopolis is located near the northern end of the Wind River Canyon and Wedding of the Waters, where the north-flowing Wind River becomes the Bighorn River. Thermopolis is ringed by mountains, with the Big Horn Mountains to the northeast, the Bridger Mountains to the southeast, the Owl Creek Mountains to the southwest and the Absaroka Range to the northwest. Thermopolis is the southern-most municipality in the Big Horn Basin.

            Roundtop Mountain, on the northern edge of town, is a unique geological formation shaped much like a volcano. It sits at approximately 6,000 feet and is the highest area in the immediate vicinity of Thermopolis.[10]

            One of Wyoming’s natural wonders–massive travertine terraces formed over the centuries by cascading hot mineral water at Hot Springs State Park–appears to be dying

            The Big Spring, which pumped 13 million gallons a day in 1896 when the Indians sold the area to the government, now produces mere 3.5 million gallons per day, according to park superintendent Allen Cowardin

    • I always promise myself I’ll just pop online to check a few blogs or vlogs “for just a minute” and then get started on my work. I’ve kept that promise probably less than 1% of the time. Ah, the definition of insanity. I know better, that something will spark my interest, this leads to that, and it’s all over but the shoutin’ several hours later. Can anyone relate?

      So now there’s this new article that says 3 emailers have mentioned key words but never wrote again. I’ve emailed ff 4 times in 3 years, so my initial thought was, well, that’s confirmation I’m not one of those 3, and the burst of my bubble reverberated thru what’s left of my brain.

      But, wait, the slightest glimmer of hope seeped thru. Didn’t I send the first 2 emails to his old addy? (Geez, I couldn’t even get that right – how did I think I could find the chest?) The last two made it to his current email, but one of those was my speculation about the secret thing in the chest. The last email outlined additional details and progress of my solve but may have been the only one he got about that. Yet, the feeling of deflation lingers. About my solve, I mean.

      I couldn’t justify a BOTG myself until I retire in 5-1/2 years and this year gave my solve to a nephew who lives fairly close to the area and he said it sounded like fun. Unfortunately, his schedule didn’t allow a trip this year and he hopes to go next year.

      I won’t dissuade him with this recent revelation. It’s a beautiful place and will be a wonderful vacation for him and his family regardless. It was good to get back in touch with him again. Treasure or not, I still plan to go to this place the first summer after I retire because I’ve come to love it from afar. If one of the key words is contentment, at least I’ve figured out that much.

      If my nephew does make it out next year and doesn’t find the TC, as I now suspect he won’t, and no one else finds it in the meantime, I’ll write up my spectacularly unsuccessful solve. I can hear the baited breath from here! Perhaps many of us become protective, not only of our solves, but also protective of the area and don’t want it subjected to 14-foot-deep hole diggers and the like.

      I know that several searchers have considered “my” area but ultimately rejected it. In the past, I thought they simply left the poem, but apparently they were right after all. Oh well, it’s been a lot of fun, I’ve learned a lot, and, for me, it has been a thrill of a chase.

      Zap, I’m not sure I agree with some of your ATF and book hint connections, but you make a persuasive case for that key word you found. I wish you and all searchers the best of luck, safe travels, and, most of all, contentment.

      Okay, back to work, back to reality. Who was it that said reality is vastly overrated?

    • Zap –

      If 3 people have mentioned key words and he never heard from them again, that means that neither you or I are one of the 3.

      CORRECT?

      • Lugnutz: the journalist’s interview with Forrest was probably back around May, so the information is “dated.” The first of only two emails I sent Forrest this year was in mid-September.

        • Zap –

          I considered that, but allowed my statement to stand.

          Forrest Fenn certainly knows who you are and where you search. He has responded to an email of mine when I mentioned you and he didn’t ask Who or what is Zap?

          When he says “never heard from them again” that excludes you is my logic. Unless you wrote to him once before this interview an then not again until after.

          Lugnutz

          • Seeker –

            Forrest knows all of us as intimately as we know each other.

            He knows everything we write here and everything we email him.

            I literally, actually mentioned Zaphod and Forrest responded to that email.

            I don’t understand why you or Zap thinks Forrest is out of touch on this stuff.

        • Lugnutz: a few points. Years ago I did include in my email the keyword that I believe is associated with specifying WWWH, but at that time I had the wrong ending, and therefore did not have the critical additional word(s) that I believe he was/is scanning for. Those didn’t come to me until last winter.

          Second point: you assume that Forrest has associated my avatar here with my email address. That may not be a good assumption — I’ve never used my HoD handle in any emails to him. Sure, if he was sufficiently curious, it wouldn’t be that hard for him to figure it out. But I’m just one guy out of tens of thousands who have emailed him — I don’t flatter myself thinking he’d go to the trouble.

          Final point: since I didn’t provide him my current ending until September this year, you are almost certainly correct that I’m NOT one of the 3 people he was referring to back in June for the Esquire interview. But at least that doesn’t exclude me from possibly being #4.

        • Ya guys are killing me here…
          LOL
          How many emails of searcher’s question or inquiry regarding the chase have been sent to fenn via blog owners? Is it not possible that in those emails a searcher happen to mention a word that caught fenn’s attention.

          Example; Hey, Jenny [or any other web site owner], would you please forward this email to Mr. Fenn in the hope he would answer my question on your blog… question for Forrest or something.

          Email: Hi Forrest,
          Just got back from here while we were looking for your chest, here and there, then went back to that place, and went a different direction to, this other place, our process was for all those places was… yada yada yada… But if you wouldn’t might I have a question for you, to have posted on this website…

          Anyone know the head count of how many emails are sent by blog owners for a searcher [ to fenn ] on any given day, or year? Heck, for all we know.. maybe one of the question the school kids ask [send by the teacher], had a curious word fenn would considered a key word.

          Some big egotesticle postings are coming out about who’s who, and who sent what in fennland.

          I find it hilarious [ if the quote was accurate ] that ‘only three’ key, important, notable, words of interest [ call then what ya will ] have been mentioned in 8 years running, with 300,000 possible searchers who may or may not have e-mailed fenn in some form or another, at any given time.

          Just 20 [emails daily] x 365 = 7,300 emails per year.
          7,300 x 8 = 58,400 emails from 2010 – conservatively.
          Allowing for ‘never heard from again’… lol… three early searchers is more than likely, who may or may not have send those words. umm err, imo.
          I wonder if JayA is still around?

        • Seeker: I know you love using LOL, but can we be candid? Never once have you “laughed out loud” at anything you’ve ever read on this blog. I’ve got to believe your threshold for private laughter is a bit higher than that. 😉

          Beef #2: Why are you fixated on forwarded emails by blog owners? They are probably << 1% of the emails that Forrest gets. It's not as if his email address is a secret.

          Forrest estimates that 350,000 people have searched for the treasure at some point in the last 8 years. We have no insight into how he derived that figure. I suspect the number is far less than this based on my own (admittedly anecdotal) surveying of people (though not as drastically lower as Toby seems to think).

          Whatever the number is, I'm actually encouraged that only three of those emailers (as of June this year) seem to have progressed beyond simply figuring out the starting point. I will bet you this: it wasn't any email he got in the first 3 years of the Chase, because all there were at that point were 2-clue solvers.

      • Zap and Lugz,

        I was reading your posts now and I thought that interview was a bit more recent than May. When was that book signing or appearance that she talks about in that article? She talks about the Big Hole guy approaching Forrest and if I’m not mistaken I thought I saw that video sometime late summer. That was the same video where he gets approached by the crazy cat lady I think.

        • well, I only had to read it again. The signing was June 23, 2018. Then she wrote: “At a nearby restaurant after the signing at the Collected Works bookstore, Forrest Fenn orders a lunch of prickly pear ice tea and fish and chips.”

    • I know the words. They are not in the poem. I emailed them to FF. I also told him I quit the search, for good reason. Maybe I’ll reconsider next summer.

      • OK finder… you’re the one who opened the door.

        What three words. LOL We have chatted about every word in the poem and the ‘book’… words on maps… and even made up words. C’mon.. don’t tease.. give us a bone to chew on. Lets open that fortune cookie and see if its solid, hollow or all gooey inside.

      • I believe that one of the words begins with the letter d.
        Hi f,
        sorry I haven’t contacted you in a long time. 🙂

        • LOL literally… Ha! Luckydog,

          Sorry Forrest you had to tell me you miss me e-mailing in an interview!! Too funny… great sense of humor.

          I’d ask what the word that starts with a D would be, But I suspect you would answer with, Duh… lol. Thanks for the chuckle.

          • Finder,
            If you’ve got something to say… say it

            What’s all the crap about; “Seeker, you are no Finder. I cannot rescue you.”… ” your dog don’t hunt.”

            You stated; “**I know the words**. They are not in the poem. I emailed them to FF. I also told him I quit the search, for good reason. Maybe I’ll reconsider next summer.”

            Seeing you wanted to say; you “know,” I asked what the words are. You opened the door for the question, what are words?
            But instead of chatting about that… you come back with ridiculous statements under my comments… if ya have something to say… say it.

          • Seems obvious that one who is a “Seeker” literally isn’t a “finder”. If you did find it you would no longer be a “Seeker” but a “finder”.

            Just my $0.09 cents.

          • Easy comparison I guess, Idle Dreamer.
            But apparently the only ‘found’ {finder} was; quitting is easier.

          • Seeker,
            Glad you get my humor.
            I’ll put one word out there.
            The word that starts with d, is Denver.

  15. WHAT IF-
    What if, “waters” is actually used as a verb instead of a noun? Consider the following sentence. ‘He waters his garden’. In this sentence, waters is not a noun. It is a verb. What if most people are focused on waters as a noun, which seems to be the case. What if everyone is wrong and it is not a noun? I have just discovered that according to the dictionary, if a river runs through a valley, you can say that the river waters the valley. Suppose that the correct solve requires warm or ‘where warm’ to water a halt?

    At least 2 geographical features have a definition that fits halt. One is a fault, which is interesting because it also rhymes with halt. The other is a gap. Both of these features could also be called a halt. They are an interuption or a break.

    Recall that FF talked about broken pies in TTOTC. Since “grandma” was the one that broke the pies for him, and I’ve always assumed that grandma was Mother Nature, then it would be true that Mother Nature (should her name be capitalized?-I don’t know) broke something in nature for FF.

    Should we be looking for a warm or a ‘wear warm’ that waters (runs through) a fault or a gap? That might actually be possible to find without any placenames at all.

    Just something new to think about.

  16. Hey FBO:
    Verbs and nouns would probably not be considered by a “kid” that FF says could solve the chase. On the other hand it is worth an investigation, Thanks.
    Jack K.

    • Jack-
      Actually, kids say things in unique ways. They dont care what words are nouns or verbs so their minds are not as rigid. In their interpretations.

      Here is an example. My oldest son was about three years old. We were students and had an ancient refrigerator someone gave us. I dont think they even made refrigerators that had to be defrosted in my lifetime. This thing was an antique, but it was free, so we didnt care.

      So one day, I was baking a cake. Since I was in the kitchen anyway, I was simultaneously defrosting this ancient refrigerator. It required tapping on the ice in the freezer to break it, thawing it some more, and then breaking more ice off. So glad they dont make these anymore!

      So anyway, my three year old was watching me. At one point he asked what I was doing. I told him I was making FROSTING for the cake. A few minutes later, he asked what I was doing. I said I was DEFROSTING the freezer.

      My three year old said, “Oh, I get it. You have to DEFROST the freezer so you can make the FROSTING for the cake.

      Do you see what I mean? My three year old could see the word frosting in both scenarios and thought it was the same thing. The defrosting of the refrigerator was a verb. But the frosting fir the cake was a noun. And no, I didnt defrost the refrigerator in order to frost a cake.

      FF has said something to the effect that kids are more agile. I think he means that their minds are more agile. I think this story with my three year old son explains that idea perfectly.

      A kid does not care what part of speech a word is. They put words together in unusual ways while they are learning. So a child could see a different meaning than an adult could.

      • To think of this solve as being understood on a kids level to ‘advantage’ ~I would gather the observational part to the challenge would be involved. For example; Lets say hoB is a mountain [a geographical location on a map].. the mountains may take shape of a bear or beaver or such, viewed from a distance [NF,BTFTW]. This is where imagination may kick in while on site. Does this mean we need to travel to that mountain? Not necessarily. All we may need to do is ‘follow’ the canyon down visually {from there- hoB} ~ being, NPFTM {the canyon} to a place that refers to HLnWH.. which may require following [ by seeing ] a creek in the correct direction.. be it N.S.E or W.
        In this case down can mean south while looking a map or [lets say] north when following the water flow direction etc. or simply “drawing” towards you.

        No climbing in and out of canyon twice, no drivers license required or alternative transportation, No map needed except to get you to the location of WWH. The directions/instructions ‘leads’ one while observing what is seen… at the first [two] clues.
        “Just’ HLnWH” could refer to where or what WWH is or its correct position to see all that. “Just” means; precisely, exact. Which in this scenario would make WWH the place to be at~ HLnWH. The “just” place to be at when at WWWH and the blaze… nothing out of order, clues are contiguous, and each clue is of a geographical place. And may explain why anyone ‘can not get closer’ than the first two clues, line of thinking.

        Just, a ‘show-n-tell’ version of a possible solve vs. a hide-n-go seek ‘stomping point to point’ version.
        And maybe why fenn had to “Complete (completed?) the poem ‘when’ he hid the chest…. He “just” needed the exact spot… to create a blaze/marker on the day of the hiding.

        But I have one problem with this theory… what could represent HLnWH and still be WWWH, both clue’s references being is the same place?
        Water High could refer to the “waterS” – in part [possibly two different bodies of water]. Yet, HLs has got me stumped… Unless it simply means; two bodies of water, and only one is the correct “waters” ‘just’ to be ‘at.’

        I’m still ‘just’ pondering and wondering. Ramble on folks…

        • seeker if I may put my two cents in – heavy loads is a highway what carries heavy loads if not a highway – so to me it just says to stay on the same highway till you get to the north end of this body of water where you will meet up with the blaze

          • Frank,

            I’m saying I’m right or wrong… but I really don’t like the idea of driving clues at all, nor a roadway needing to get be in place… I just can predict how that road [ man made ] may still be there in the future. If this falls down to driving or alternative transportation to go from one clue to another… I’ll applaud all who have that idea, and eat Jake’s hat.

          • Seeker,
            I’m gonna have to dice that hat into tiny pieces by the time this is done.

        • Having WWWH and HLaWH being the same point sounds like it would fit a couple ATFs saying something about going back to the beginning when you get stumped at the end. Yeah, i know i butchered it real bad but that’s the idea of it.

          • Smoky,

            “We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time.” – T. S. Eliot quotes ?? [sounds like a very subtle hint, in my mind, for my example above…Maybe?] Everyone seems to be ‘leaving’ the poem.

            Some may refer to the Q&A about ‘switching back to the first clue’ as the idea we can’t come back to clue 1. My only point would be [ to that argument ] We may not have to leave clue one’s location. So it was safe for fenn to say there would be no switching back, or circling back, idea.

        • You’ve certainly set yourself up with a seemingly intractable battle of wits, Seeker. Perhaps a trek to a remote mountaintop where it’s completely quiet might yield a place where you could listen and to nature and contemplate the meaning of life quietly while the battle rages on elsewhere below? What do you think, Seeker? That poetic enough for you?

          • Glad to hear it, Seeker. Next summer, I’ll head out for a fresh round of contemplation at place listen. Who knows what treasures/wisdommay await me there, eh?

        • Seeker, the obvious answer to “what could represent HLnWH and still be WWWH” would be an erupting geyser. Look up.

          • Sandy

            ~ A geyser is a vent in Earth’s surface that periodically ejects a column of hot water and steam.

            I can’t relate ‘warm’ to boiling, scolding, water and steam. It makes no sense to me.

            The thing is… Heavy Loads “and” Water High, gives me the impression, two things are being told of, but they are at the same place. Or one {HL} possibly narrows down a place at WH.
            One possible connection [ to my explanation above ] might be twin lakes [ two lakes side by side, idea] In this case [ for the viewing theory ] we would need to be in the right location… possibly between the high mountain lakes to view the other clue’s references.

            LOL maybe the [two] Omega’s symbols simply implies; two of the same…. fenn being in the middle. Symbolically thinking, siblings?

          • I agree Sandy. Or it could be something with a cloud name. I almost let somebody talk me out of that possibility recently as it was pointed out that even when frozen, water molecules do not stop moving. But then I realized that the possibility of a cloud is not based upon the water molecules stopping. It is based upon the fact that one definition of halt is to freeze. Another is to hold. So both of those work with a cloud and a child could figure that out. A cloud is heavy loads and water high.

          • Flutter;

            Have you ever seen a single cloud stay in one place? Don’t clouds move because of changes in temperature (rise and fall) and move because of winds? If a cloud moves – it is here today, and gone tomorrow. How can that be wwwh or WH? Just askin’ – JDA

          • JDA,
            You are right that clouds move and so an actual cloud could not be WWWH. I do not believe Cloud Peak is the answer. But it is one example to suggest a land feature that could be WWWH. I have ruled it out. But, there are other possibilities.

        • Seeker,
          I just dont think that the fact that a kid can solve the first two clues (Little Girl in India), involves a visual recognition of something like a bear shaped mtn etc. FF has also said that maybe some deep thinking searcher might be using logic, and that tells me that it is the logic of the use of words that helps a child to figure it out. A child’s “logic” is more flexible. We read the sentence WWWH a certain way because we have learned the “correct” way to make a sentence. A child can interpret the words differently. Also; since all we really need are the poem and a map, its not likely the child could see an animal shape on a map that would narrow down the search for us to figure the rest of the clues. Remember that we arent looking for a region. We are looking for a place. You could see a region with a certain shape on a map. But its not likely that you would see a specific shape of a place on a typical map. Most arent that detailed. IMO the only way a child can solve the first two clues is to understand the words a different way than most of us understand them. Maybe we should invite the Little Girl in India to join us on this forum.

          • OK,
            So a lake can’t look like an arrowhead or a rabbit or a fish… on a map? LOL have ya seen some of the GE pics in some of the solves posted… there was a croc’s head in one…
            The point is;
            That would seem to be a specific place to me. the lake example. But, in my example above; hoB would be the clue that needed the imagination, of seeing something, from WWH and at a ground level view Not Far – away, “But” Too Far To Walk, meaning no need to go there.
            “But” in this case means; excluding; nonetheless – the part of – too far to walking.

          • Yes Seeker,
            I have seen the visuals that some searchers have in which they think a land feature looks like an animal of some kind. So I suppose its possible to identify an image of some kind when viewing a uniquely shaped lake or mountain. You are right that it is possible. But I dont believe this will solve the poem. I think the words really mean exactly what they say and that the challenge is figuring out what they say. If we can figure out what message the words convey, then I think logic leads the way. I dont think any phrase in the poem gives a clue that requires a personal opinion. I believe that if we can put the right definitions to each word, then the poem will tell us exactly where the TC is, with no guessing. But of course, this is just my opinion.

        • Seeker – I am interested in what happens to the water temperature during and AFTER the geyser erupts. When the geyser erupts as boiling water, that water turns to steam and then the steam turns back to water (condensation). The water falls back to earth in a much cooler state – the water is warm or even cold. Osbourne Russell spoke of this phenomena. The entire geyser event illustrates the steps of the water cycle, including a wide variety of temperatures. The end of the cycle, which may or may not be drawing nigh, is frequently warm water.

          • Sandy,

            I’m not sure that’s how it actually works…
            I mean, If I toss a cup of hot tea as high as I could in the air [ and I still have a pretty good throwing arm]… I’m not going to stand there waiting to see if it comes down cooler. It’s going to be hot.
            It takes time for water to cool from its boiling point… Unless a cooling agent is present there as well; example; fenn’s river bathing… hot water mixing with cold water, and being in the right spot. A geyser doesn’t do that. A geyser doesn’t turn into steam… it blasted out of the ground by the pressure built up by the hot steam.

          • Seeker: a quote about Yellowstone geysers: “Water erupting from Yellowstone’s geysers is superheated … to an average of 204 °F (95.5 °C) as it leaves the vent. The water cools significantly while airborne and is no longer scalding hot by the time it strikes the ground, nearby boardwalks, or even spectators.”

          • Zap…your geyser description is correct. Also, when the steam condenses to water, it returns to earth as “rain”. The water rains down locally, kind of like a shower with a skylight. Not a design deficiency!! Forrest tells us it is raining in many of his important stories.

          • OK, Zap n Sandy
            I’ll go with what ya guys are reading…
            I haven’t looked up the information or been at a geyser. But now I’m interested in how that all comes about. Not for the chase, but its just a bit weird and curious… and I’m always curious about weird.

          • A geyser is a weird thing. And it is not a stretch to say that the water from it, which is now warm, halts in the ground. The more famous geysers halt tourists as well.

          • I have got geyser spray on me myself, and it was not hot. You have to be careful that it doesn’t hit your sunglasses though because the silica can ruin them.

          • Seeker –

            For the first time ever my seven year old daughter read the poem and offered ideas on the clues.

            She immediately said WWH is a hot spring or geyser.

            She did not know that there were either in the search area, didn’t even know the search area.

            She said Brown bear right away as well.

            Lugnutz

        • Sseeker,
          Your mention of two bodies of water left me wondering. Is there a place where two bodies of water originate from the same place that could be a HOB? Like red & green mixed together create brown. So if you had a green river and a red river originating from the same place, that place could be HOB. I think this would work fir other color combinations also. Just a thought. Havent looked into it.

          • I kinda like that line of thinking, Flutter.
            It does work for the idea of two merging rivers, by there names, as a specific point of WWH, a direction of the flow of the waters after merging, and helps hoB as a location of the correct section of what waters they might be… a mixture of the color names.

            OK, [without looking up a bunch of rivers, creeks and streams] don’t we still have the problem about how many places this could be in any given state? Or even if; for example; it could be the Green river that flows in the Red canyon, hence hoB?. Your welcome CO searchers lol.

          • Blue & yellow make green….. so blue + yellow + red make brown…. so maybe Brown is a place 3 primaries blend together …. Three Forks, etc.?

          • The first time we went fly fishing in yellowstone we went with a guide. We made it to, what should have been an amazing spot, about a half a mile off the road, with no trail in site. The water brown and the trout were not biting. It was because rains from the day before caused mud to be washed into the river somewhere upstream. I thought of HoB, but figured this could happen a different spots and only after a rain.

      • That’s a great example Flutterby. At work we have medication and lab sample refrigerators that have freezer compartments. They needed defrosting last week and I had to explain both the concept of defrosting a freezer and how to accomplish the task to the staff. They are all so young (in comparison to the dinosaur that runs the clinic lol) that they had no idea that older freezers need defrosting from time to time. Which brings me to Frosty, Grandma, and the “frozen meat locker” (freezer). Most searchers are far younger than Forrest and typical tasks of daily living and common knowledge when he was a young person would be foreign to many of us. We may need not only the ingredients to bake a cake (all the clues) but “frosting” too. Hmmm.

  17. The three key words, I’m guessing “Phantom” is one of the words. Remember when he said, “only the phantom knows”.

    • Hi James,

      I found a way to incorporate that type of Fenn-omena (I haven’t tried it as a key word though, thanks for the tip)

      • Hi Argillite, The phantom comment came about, after mention was made about encountering a phantom on a search. I know more details, but that’s all I can share. Good Luck.

          • Hi Jake, “the show the poem to a kid comment”? If that’s what you mean, it’s from back at the beginning of the chase. This blog was the first, and the CC blog was started, maybe six months later. Unfortunately, it doesn’t look like some of the earlier posts, were archived on either blog. I’m not a computer person, so maybe I just don’t know how to find them. But for sure, searchers that came late to the game, have missed out on earlier information.

          • I know you are a veteran blogger. You posted a quote by Forrest the other day but when I went looking for it on the internet, they were quotes by searchers only so I’m assuming it was from a video or audio and the quote you posted may not be accurate.

            When someone puts quotes around words we should trust that it’s gospel but unfortunately when someone doesn’t have the proof then it’s not fact but opinion.
            Someone else here stated this.

          • Hi Jake, I understand what you are saying. I have used the search function on both blogs, to look for posts that I know were made by searchers, by entering the searchers name, and nothing came up. These posts did not break any rules, and were in no way offensive, but posts were made that can no longer be found. I’m guessing they caused a knee jerk reaction and were deleted. I’ve looked for the article, where Mr. Fenn said that he laughed out loud, when walking back to his car. I couldn’t find it. Maybe I just don’t know how to do a search? I’ve only posted things Iv’e thought would help other searchers, if some of my quotes weren’t exact, I gave what I thought to be the pertinent information. Yes, it’s disappointing, that there may have been information out there, that can’t be found now. Personally, I’m a believer, in what Mr. Fenn says, about only needing the poem, a good map, and or google earth. I think imagination will win out, over burnt brain cells.

          • I just searched tarryscant.com for “kid” and came up with 16 results including videos that were transcribed and there was no quote about – show it o a kid, they’ll get it – or anything close to it.

          • James;

            I found five quotes that relate to Forrest laughing as he went back to his car – all videos. Here is a transcript of one: “When I hid the treasure chest, I had to make two trips, because the thing weighs 42 pounds, it’s small, but gold is heavy. And when I had hid it and was walking back to my car I started laughing out loud and said, :Forrest, did you really do that?” “(5:00) (11/2/13 – Moby Dickens bookstore event) https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=JXupxL4ovmY

            JDA

          • Hi Jake, Tarryscant was late to the game, and asked for input from searchers, to build the site. They don’t have everything.

          • Hi JDA, The laughing comment, was first made in an article. It was the article, that I couldn’t find. Thanks

          • James and Jake: the exact quote was from Chad in MN, and this is the sum and substance of it: “Forrest actually told me to show it to my kids. I took it to mean that I was (as usual) overthinking the process.”

            So it was in a private email from Forrest to Chad, and I think Chad accurately assessed Forrest’s intent with that suggestion.

            The post is in Nine Clues part 4 — April 5, 2013:

            https://dalneitzel.com/2013/04/04/the-nine-clues-part-four/#comment-8021

            On this same page, Goofy (where are you Goofy??) told a story about how he was showing the poem to random people while at “the coast” antique shopping to get their opinions and perhaps flesh out some new ideas. A county sheriff thought he might be soliciting something and pulled up next to him. You can read about the exchange here — it’s a good story:
            https://dalneitzel.com/2013/04/04/the-nine-clues-part-four/#comment-8151

          • Was wondering when you would show up and show the goods for the ones who cannot find the comments. There used to be a good rendition of that exchange at Oak trees and mariachi from the time period.

          • Please, loco, let me know where I need to go to kiss your ring, and if I can recommend an orthopedic surgeon to take care of that chip on your shoulder…

          • Ken ~ ‘Was wondering when you would show up and show the goods for the ones who cannot find the comments.’

            LOL someone need to keep the fake news in check.
            Who are you voting for? Oh! C’mon… that’s funny… whether you’re a lefty or a righty.

            Where the heck is Goofy… I miss his floppy ears. Hope all is well…

          • Thanks guys,
            Kinda wish I never asked.
            Those poor kids have been beat like a dead horse over the years.
            It’s time to put them to bed until next time.

            I saved all the links and text and will never ask that question to anyone again until….

            You ring kissers can kiss it, but I wouldn’t be surprised if they bite your finger off while handing them food for thought.

          • Yeah Seeker ! Too funny…
            Interestingly…my paternal grandmother taught me to be ambidextrous for some reason… she must have been a fortune teller…or was just messin’ with me.

  18. I’ve got a potential unique word in my solve that I don’t see mentioned very frequently on here though. But who knows. It’s going to be a long winter/spring.

  19. seeker thanks for your reply above – the poem I believe was made for botg even if the road will no longer be there you will still have the clues to get you there- but sense ff drove that’s where it all came about driving – walking imo should take a couple of days to get to the tc compared to two hours driving frank

    • I also think that heavy loads is a highway but who knows driving or walking from wwwh to the tc you will still get there

  20. FBO; Love the story and it makes my point perfectly, a kid would not try to dissect the poem grammatically like many of the searchers on this site.

  21. ” I have to be real careful not to get callous about it. I have to keep reminding myself I asked for this.”

    • “Now it is time for me to rest.”

      Yet he appears to be dancing…I like how you rest Forrest

    • I wonder what he thought the Chase was going to be like when his thoughts began. Are they the same or different?

      • I would bet he never thought about some of the things that have transpired. I still believe in his intentions.

        • As do I, ken. I know he said he wanted to give people hope during a time when things were looking bleak. He wanted to get people/family out in the mountains to truly enjoy what is out there.

    • Forrest was taking responsibility for his situation there and I think its a good thing for everybody to do once in a while.

      There are so many perspectives out there. Challenging the world at something for a million-dollar prize is going to return all of them, as crazy as one might seem to another.

      I find it very interesting that I used to presume my general solution would make sense to most people out there. Now I think my general solution makes good sense to only me and it diminishes in sensibility steeply among those with whom I have shared it.

  22. Just saw a political ad on the Smith River and it was interesting because it had a similar look to one photo in the ttotc. Which amazes me as I had never seen anything like THAT picture in the wild until now. The picture Is the one of Forrest on the cover next to the pipe of water.

    • Hello Idle Dreamer. I took a moment to try and see if I could see the political ad on YouTube, but couldn’t find it, so I searched other videos and found the following. It didn’t show what you mentioned, but it did remind me of other stories Mr. Fenn told:

      https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tefItlrkVSY

      • Definitely a beautiful place and worth saving. The ad came up at the start of a YouTube video so not something I can find again (I did try). The ad was on Montana’s I-186 which aims to restrict mining. The scene I noted was a little girl drinking water as it came pouring out of a pipe. One of the things I always look for is where that picture was taken but have never seen anything like it.

        • Different things come to mind about the drinking water coming from a spigot. Places where one might see one, as well as, how pure the water is. I’ve learned and been told by someone who would know about how pure the waters are flowing into Taos Pueblo.

          • Not sure if it is odd or I am just not well traveled, but I have never seen a spigot like anywhere. As for the waters flowing into Taos Pueblo, all I know is that they are considered a sacred gift.

          • Lots of childhood memories of going to the spigot in the next town over and filling our water buckets for family drinking water for the week because our well water was for bathing, laundry, dishes, and animals (not necessarily in that order…LOL).

            We also had our own little bathing spot at the old farm across the way…used a towel to plug up the exit pipe to the cement cistern they used to use to water the livestock, wait for it to fill up (was about 7 feet deep when full), hold onto the edge of the 2′ x 2′ opening, plunge in and back out, soap up, plunge in to rinse off, remove the towel to clean out the the soapy water in the cistern, plug it up and repeat for the next sibling. We called it “The Hole” and it was a real summertime treat when the weather was hot and you needed to get cool in a hurry. About four of us could float inside “The Hole” if we left the towel plug a bit loose so that the water trickled out.

            After all that, this country kid still turned out ok.

            IMO

            LOL

          • Bowmarc, it is stories like that that make me wish I could have been alive to experience the way things used to be before the age of technology. My kids will never even know the pain if getting kicked off the internet to a squealing phone being picked up. Or what a 2400 baud modem even is or means. I also remember how important it was to get up early on Saturday and watch cartoons.

      • Here is what I love about this conversation. Many have never heard of the Smith River. Generic name (no offense) like Jane, Dick, and Spot – so it garners no attention. Not the big name river like the mighty Mississippi, of which we all know….or at least naively believe we know. Yet upon further examination,l od the Smith River, we can come to understand that eveything upstream is our concern down her in the canyon – generic or not. Nothing is generic.

        The greater part of knowledge is knowing those things not worthy of knowing.

        Definitely not the Smith River or Forrest Fenn. ?

        • Twingem, that quite of Marvin’s is definitely my favorite but also one of the hardest to give examples. Forrest and the Smith are definitely worth knowing. Sadly we can’t float the Smith for 4 days with Forrest unless we had a time machine. The real question for me is what exactly would count as not worthy of knowing?

  23. I would like to add that Forrest tried to think of everything and for him to not visualize or foresee someone dying or being murdered after 15 years of thinking and preparing is absurd.

    He thought of it all right. But for him to admit it after the deaths would be a conviction for him and that’s probably why he hasn’t admitted what he knew what could happen.

    Sometimes it’s wise for the fox to dress like the hound.
    Dodging bullets and survival is the key.

    • Jake;

      No one, not even Forrest, has a crystal ball and can see the future. Is searching anywhere in the Rockies a bit dangerous? Sure, but Forrest has stated from the beginning that it is NOT in a dangerous place. If searchers choose to ignore that, and do stupid things, Forrest could NOT foretell that. Sure, in the very back of his mind he knew of the possibility, but there is danger in getting out of bed in the morning. The rug could slip and you could crack your head open on the dresser. NO ONE can predict what will happen the moment that you finish reading this post. Yellowstone could blow its lid, and we all get smothered in ash. Life is a gamble. Play away – JDA

      • JDA is right about
        this.
        Somedays life can be a
        .nasty sandwich, and
        sometimes you take a
        big bite out of it.

    • Why? Jake
      Why would any of the active or prior treasure hunts creators think someone would result to murder?
      Accidental deaths happen with a simple weekend camping trip, and more happen, driving to the camp grounds. Every day someone does something stupid that causes serious injury or death… But a fore-thought of murder?
      We might as well cancel any and all activity involving, cache searching, geo-marker tracking… or going out looking for the L&C trail.
      How about the guy who told all, he would leave money everywhere he went for folks to find.. hotel rooms, bathrooms, dinners, or all those other treasure hunts you can read about on MW’s and hundreds of other web site?

      “… for him to not visualize or foresee someone dying or being murdered after 15 years of thinking and preparing is absurd.”

      Dodging bullets???

      The comment is absurd. It sound more like, Guilty before Innocent, attitude.

      • You already answered this question with your reply to me.
        Greed. One of the most dirtiest words I hate to know.

        I’m a realist, not a fluffernutter, as you seem to have flipped.
        Stick with the peanut butter on the roof of your mouth.

        • Jake,

          If greed is the most dirties words that you hate to know, then why are you looking for the tc? Is it because your very well off? You must want it, isn’t that greed?

          Just Say’n

        • Greed can not be used as a prediction to any event of the idea, of having a murder attached to that event. That’s like saying; close all bank someone is bound to get killed.

          C’mon… the least you can to is use fluffinutter correctly, I think number 4 applies well…
          Seeker’s fluffinutter definition;
          1; Over use / forcing of sweetening, when a spoonful of sugar is satisfying / pleasurable…
          2; Over indulging for self credit purpose.
          3; Use as sarcasm to bestow with the opposite intent of sweetness.
          4; When attempting to be insulting but doesn’t want to man up to it.

          • Greed is motivation for many violent crimes and stupidity.
            The past is a great indicator of what’s going to happen next.
            I’m just telling you what I think will happen and that Forrest cannot say or admit that he knew someone would die trying to find the treasure. I don’t know Forrest personally but I would bet there has been at least one civil lawsuit against him. I wouldn’t be surprised if almost everything he owned is no longer in his name.

            I tried to think of everything including some searchers dying trying to find the treasure.
            That would not sit well with the law.
            Possession is 9 tenths but admission is 99%.

          • Jake,

            The deaths that have occurred, happened when folks ignored common sense warnings from fenn [ or common sense altogether]; one being; don’t go where an 80 yr old can’t go with a heavy backpack.

            Statically, if you have a population of 300,000 in any part of the world… people die from an array of reason- from mosquito bite to murder- But does that stop that folks from doing things? And if they did think about it, could they prevent it from happening?

            Kids/adults alike in this country have been seriously and permanently injured play sports such as football or soccer… should we just cancel those games altogether? Fight breakout and property damage, even death has occurred because the fans go bonkers after their favorite team won or lost.. which has caused heavy police action and security at many of these sporting, costing tax payers hundreds of millions each year… do we cancel them-?- knowing these things have and will happen?? Will the populous stay away from these events knowing this could happen?
            But better yet… who are you going to blame for keeping these event ‘open’ when we have seen what can happen at them.

            Do you want to talk about; concert events? movie theaters, marathons, going to religious places to pray, going to work…wondering if the building will be there when you arrive, or worse being in it? DayCare facilities??

            Yet, we’re here talking about the possibility of murder, and IF it should have be ‘thought’ of on a treasure hunt designed for recreation and exploring? Ya know, the “Thrill” part of it all…

            It’s ridiculous… and that’s fluffinuttering the term I would like to use.

    • Jake,
      You seem to have expressed an argument AND provided the perfect rebuttal.

      “Dodging bullets and survival is the key” is synonymous with this thought: The term “personal safety” is self-evident.
      Joe

      • Thanks Joe,
        I’ll say one more thing then I will move away from this negative vision.

        I think there has been at least one attempt to do harm to one of Forrest’s daughters and many have gone to his home, some not to say Hi.
        I will leave it at that.

  24. I guess it begs the question whether it matters or not that Forrest has frequented or been in your search area?
    And of course you have proof or you just think it’s fact.

    I know he has been in some of the areas I searched. The books and scrapbooks of his stories telling us so.

    I think it matters tremendously.
    If he hasn’t been there, then you shouldn’t be there.

    • Does it matter? If I had proof that he had never been in my area, I would be a fool to search that area. If I know for a fact that he has been in my area, I can at least hang onto the hope that on one of those trips he left Indulgence behind. Do I have proof? YUP, or I would not say that it is a fact. – Just sayin’ – JDA

      • I see you and Seeker are using more often, my original end statement, “Just Say’n”. Never saw it before I started using it.

        You say you have proof, proof means fact, then you go onto saying you would not say it’s a fact. How can it be proof if its not fact?

        Puzzled, Just Say’n

        • CharlieM;

          Not intending to steal your “Just Sayin'” Note that I spell it a bit differently.

          Sorry if I am nopt clear.

          1) I have proof.
          2) The proof makes it a fact.
          3) And that is a fact.

          JDA

          • JDA,
            Proof is evidence with verification… we haven’t seen the verification. How can it be proof if not shown as evidence. It stands as nothing more than an opinion until its verifiable.
            Not unlike ‘ I know where the chest is hidden ‘ line of thinking… where the proof.

            LOL you should know by now, some are pigheaded about; prove it, if you know it… right?

          • I dont see why JDA has to reveal his proof. He said it was enough to convince him that FF had been in his search area. I have no reason to doubt him.

          • Well Seeker;

            True. I have not disclosed to this audience my proof, so I guess I will say that I have proved, to MY satisfaction, that Forrest has been in my search area. So, I guess until I choose to post my proof, it is an opinion – kinda – JDA

        • CharlieM ~’I see you and Seeker are using more often, my original end statement, “Just Say’n”. Never saw it before I started using it.’

          Really, Never? Not even as far back as 2013.. ok.
          no problem. But if it means that much to you, you can coin it for your own.
          End of commentary… just saying

          • Seeker,

            I’m not saying that it only belongs to me, it was just an observation and nothing more. You can use what you want to use, I never said you can’t.

            Do I come across hostile all of the time? It certainly not my attention. I know you didn’t say hostile…..lately that seems the case for backlashes that come from my posts, not you necessarily, I’m saying others have.

            Maybe that’s my flaw, I just like to get right to the point and often am blunt. In my past line of work one has to. Sorry!

            Just Say’n

          • Charlie,
            I didn’t take it as hostile, and I personally don’t mind someone who gets straight to the point…
            It just seem odd it was mentioned at all.
            Here’s an observation I have seen, but never mentioned because it was just a silly observation..
            Folk screen names at automatically posted when making a comment, lol yet many have started to add the same name at the end of the comment [with a few exceptions of other offering their real first name}. It doesn’t bother me, I just find it odd when its at the beginning of a comment for who saying what.

            Anyways; I agreed to the idea if someone say proof and fact, not matter what is being talked about… back it up with something! Otherwise, and has happened in the past, Their ‘fact’ gets handed out as if; fenn stated it as fact. We have seen this happen quite a few times.

            OH! right… imo of course.

  25. Hi fellow searchers, the following is a brief email I received from Forrest yesterday, I’m starting a new section since I think several will enjoy this, the basic context was that JA Kraven posted about the 1930’s maps that showed the best paved routes to YNP were the Denver to Casper to Shoshone to Cody routes. I’ve played with the idea for some time that his annual drives to YNP involved side trips to see historical/tourist-y things, maybe different fishing spots, maybe archaeology related, hence special places to him. Then Zap posted that esquire article where the discussion turned to who emails him etc. I have not emailed him until this exchange and I was sure he wouldn’t respond, but sure enough I had a reply in about an hour, I was giddy (not in a confirmation way, just that he took the time). For me his reply sent me on a fun rabbit hole where I learned about another amazing person, that he chose the archaeology aspect to highlight I feel is interesting, not saying that is a hint, just that it came to the forefront for him (man he is sharp as a tack still!) here goes:

    I went to Lindenmeier with Dr. H. M. Wormington many years ago. She wrote a book about that site. f

    —–Original Message—–
    Sent: Friday, November 2, 2018 11:27 AM
    To: Forrest Fenn (.)
    Subject: Scrapbook request

    Hi Forrest!

    I know you get a lot of these so I will keep it short and sweet: I grew up spending my summers in south east Wyoming and have called Fort Collins and Denver home for most of my life. I wonder if you might share more stories of your family road trips? There are many ‘side trips’ to visit interesting areas throughout Colorado and Wyoming, I wonder if you ever visited them? Places like the Lindenmeier site north of Fort Collins or the Ames monument or curt gowdy state park. Did you ever take your daughters to some of those out of the way places? I hope you and Peggy are well and thank you for doing something so right, the chase has been a thrill!

    For those interested HM Wormington was a very influential archaeologist, being a woman in that field was an amazing achievement during those
    times, (maybe FF has been watching the #metoo movement/news of late?), at any rate I’ve been enriched yet again by the chase, thanks Forrest!

    • That’s terrific, T – and thanks for sharing it with us!

      Dr Wormington would have been a great tour guide for the Lindenmeier Fremont site, having been around for the actual digs in the ’30’s (and at least a couple other sites in the greater vicinity). And she was also of course aware of the Fenn/Clovis Cache, decades later.

      Thanks too, pdenver, for the link to the CO encyclopedia entry on Dr Wormington.

      Jake

      • You’re welcome, J A Kraven. I hope Mr. Fenn was able to participate in uncovering history while he was at the site. If so, I wonder if he found anything and what it might have been.

    • Tom T

      I didn’t think you should have published this email.

      Perhaps you forget Forrest’s first rule?

      Don’t make the alligator mad until you’ve crossed the river

      • Ok lugs care to elaborate? How would this make him mad? That I shared his response to a thinly veiled ‘hey have you been here before? Wink wink’ question? Or that you think I’m giving some of my solve away? Why do your posts always require several follow ups to understand?

        • Tbug –

          If you posted his response without his consent that may bother him.

          Forrest, aside I wouldn’t do that to anyone.

          • Tbug,
            Not that I consider FF’s response to you valuable, but I think he wont be mad that you shared it. He has opened up a very public chase and he has made it clear that he doesnt want to give anyone an advantage. I wouldnt worry about it.

          • Ah, ok, well thanks for your opinion lug…I’ve been pretty active on the blog over the last two years (not as prolific as some), so I assumed he was aware of the possibility, and for the record I did ask Dal first and he said he thought it was ok to post. Thanks FB, I was thinking the same (fair to share).

          • Tbug

            All I am saying is that you should consider that F may not approve.

            I do understand at the same time he must expect that it COULD be published.

  26. Contextual use of the phase “I thought of everything” may not be construed to mean “Everyghing” as in everything under the sun. In context of…..legal hypothesis and what could result in the possibility of the treasure being on public or private land. At the same time he told us he spent a lof of money with lawyer/lawyers.
    Juz Stat’in

    Great story of “cistern bathing”. In the realm of the days of my youth I was share cropping on the French Bottoms on the Missouri, Burr Oak, Mo.

    The house I was squatting in had a two seater privy but no bath. I rigged up a horse trough elevated on cinder blocks. I would then pour buckets of water in and light a fire under one end. I forgot it was Sunday morning one day while taking a good soak. The shantie was right next to the Burr Oak Baptist Church in the middle of nowhere. While enjoying a luxury not afforded often all of a sudden they came from the four winds. Car after car of the good folks that attend sunday morning worship pulled into the church. No where to hide….I did the only thing rational at the time. I jumped out waved hello and ran naked as a jaybird to the house. I sure gave em something to pray about. I credit myself as being a true pioneer. …a pioneer of streaking!

  27. Hi all, longtime lurker, first-time poster. Has anyone searched the “snowflake springs” area off 191 in MT? I feel a few clews lead to that area, but haven’t seen anyone else post about it here.

      • Hi Ken: it hasn’t shown up in the mail yet. I’ll certainly be looking for differences between it and the original version. I understand the extra story is SB 188 (Dizzy Dean).

        • Thanks, ken. I’m sure my copy will show up in the next few days. Did you spot the extra star on the cover? He also added a single omega to the Colophon.

          • yes I did. Have not read it through… but I don’t expect too much in that respect. I think it is visual. He does say *final* book.

          • Only one omega? interesting. I tried to depict a double omega merging into one on a recent MW post. I’m sure it’s just a meaningless quinky dink, because what do I know? Where on the cover was the extra star placed?

          • The main star added (the one of note) is to the right of “Forrest fenn” by the side if the cover.

      • Thanks for the reply Zaphod. Not many other takers, I guess. Am trying to figure if every rock in that area has been overturned and I need to move on, but if it’s just you then maybe there’s elbow room for 2.

        • I wouldn’t rule out DG and her sisters from having been there — seems they’ve been everywhere. 😉

        • NDKarl,
          I search around that area but not snowflake springs.
          I ruled it out being within 100′ or so of private property, all 3 springs and it’s so close to 191, if I were standing where the treasure is I would see and hear a lot of trucks driving down the road. Not my idea where I want my bones to rest.

          • SF springs might have been too specific. I’m thinking more the ridge behind them (esp. on the side away from the property, but only have ideas for 3-4 clues so also eyeing a 2-3 mile radius from the springs.

          • NDKarl,
            Im pretty sure NPFTM is intended to be read as meek=Pacific. This sentence tells us that the water in this place is heading for the Atlantic rather than the Pacific ocean. Just my opinion

          • NDKarl (North Dakota?) – since you’re poking around in the general area, you’ve probably spied a certain pinnacle to the west of the highway. (Marty has certainly been there, as have I). It’s not hard to find hints for that geologic feature. For instance, page 127 of OUAW: what are three prominent things in the middle of the picture? And what do you see in SB 172 in the Kiva A picture? How ’bout the second line of the Invictus stanza that Forrest likes to quote?

          • Flutterby, nothing goes to the Atlantic from up there. The streams flow east to the Mississippi and then south to the Gulf of Mexico. Just sayin.’ That doesn’t change your definition of meek, of course.

          • Zap –

            I don’t see well. In fact I am having both eyes replaced in the next 12 months.

            I looked at the picture in OUAW but I can’t make out what you are saying.

            Bell Peak and Bell lake are nowhere near Snowflake Springs.

            This is a good place to say what peak you are referring to and how it relates to the scrapbooks. Since you’re already speaking.

            Thanks
            Lugnutz

        • I like that whole area NDKarl.
          Gallatin National Forrest, The Madisons, Gallatin Gateway etc…
          I think you are in the right general area.
          I like to stay out of YNP which is right down the road.

          • I’m having trouble finding a “reply” to the posts I want: but
            Flutterby: that’s a great read on NPFTM. I had not seen that before, so thanks for sharing. I still like my snowflake, but you’re causing me great doubt.

            Zap: Nyet. From my perusals, I see you like puzzles. My name is what I’d consider to be a Fennism. ND Karl… I’ll give you another try before I reveal it. 🙂

            Jake: Yep. I’m focused on Gallatin Forrest. Madisons or Gallitans.

          • ND – Just like this one – I had to scroll up until I found the “reply” button – sometimes it is a L O N G ways up – JDA

          • Hi NDKarl: my second guess was going to be a Fighting Irish nod (as opposed to a certain Gothic cathedral on Île de la Cité), but you consider the name a Fennism so that doesn’t work. Score-Karl would be a Fennism in my book, but I doubt 1 person in 100 would make that connection.

          • Looking forward to the Fennism of NDKarl. My wild guess is “In the corral” or “Indy Girl”. Gosh, I have no idea. 🙂

          • PD…Sorry, I stopped thinking of Karl and your “in the..” made me think of in the wood. I can’t equate Karl and wood. Dying to know the answer though.

          • Denny K

            (Only because back in the ’60’s I went to school with a big kid named Denny Kowalczyk. One gym teacher nicknamed him “No Duh” Kowalczyk, which we eventually abbreviated to “N D”, or “Endy”. Ethnic jokes were still common currency then, in an ethnically mixed Catholic community in New England; he was actually a very bright guy.)

            Jake

          • Wow. Came back and didn’t realize there’d be all this interest!

            Argillite took it in the right direction, but Ken brought it home. The “ND” is for “Andy.” Karl is a shortening of my last name.

            I was thinking of Forrest’s grades when I made my username. I do like the “Indy” and other N.D. answers though. Maybe we can keep playing this game and you can all send me your thoughts for clues 1-7 in your solutions? 😉

          • Hi Aaron,

            Just for the simple fac that I’m lazy. My name is already only two syllables and AnD is three. Also I used to think it was awesome when I was a kid that I could spell my name with just 2 letters.

    • NDKarl

      Welcome to the Home of Dal.

      My word, I am surprised Zap affirmed.

      A good size contingent of current field search chasers are meandering throughout the area below Big Sky.

      May I ask why you mention Snowflake Springs specifically?

      I will add that I was drawn to the area by Lodgepole Creek.

      Cheers!
      Lugnutz

      • Thanks Lug. I like that stretch along 191 a lot. I found a W.Y. fly fisherman that’s posted about a lot of notellum streams in that area which perked my interest.

  28. JDA,
    I think you should sculpt a Forrest Fenn monument for your last go around at the skill you know most and love.
    I know you have declined others citing your health but maybe you can make it happen
    seeing you are still able to search.
    I would love to see him memorialized as stone in Cody, SF or West Yellowstone.

    OK, it would be easier to carve a wax liking of him and someone else cast a bronze.
    Get to the plate JDA!

    • I think a large statue of Forrest when he was a pilot next to a fighter plane would be awesome.

        • Nice and the medallion’s should be starting up soon so you can at least submit that design for those Jake. I would love to see it.

          • Definitely not a bad age that represents a time when kids should be saying yes to new adventures.

            Any ideas on when that starts or when we get more details?

        • Perhaps a statue representing what started all of this for Forrest, and us…..A nine year old boy in a plowed field, bent over picking up his first arrowhead?

          just a thought…….

          • Hello locolobo. Perhaps you could submit a drawing for the Appalachian coin with such image.

          • HAH!! Not likely, pd. Forrest’s stick-men look like Rembrandt’s compared to what I could artisticaly produce….. 🙁

            Great to see ya., hope your boy is doing well?

          • Hello locolobo. I think Mr. Fenn could be considered Rembrandt where stickmen sketches are concerned. 🙂 My son seems to be doing okay. His first of every two-month visits for a year is around the corner. Have my fingers crossed. Thank you for asking. It’s good to see you, too.

      • From his own writings, I imagine he’d prefer that imagery to remain at rest in the past.

        • Even if he did promoting veterans is never a bad thing. Doing what is necessary doesn’t always mean doing what is comfortable. Eventually you have to pass over the line between the two.

          • Supporting veterans is what is necessary, and many don’t want to know that, or acknowledge the deficiencies.

            Promoting? We have all the warplanes we’ll ever need. A statue of a warplane promotes the war profiteers but supports no one.

    • Well Jake, your ideas are nice, but I think that there are younger (and better) sculptors out there that could do a better job than I. Instead of Cody, Santa Fe, or West Yellowstone, how about we wait and see where Indulgence is found and add that place to the list – JDA

      • Ya, I guess it’s best to know when to pass the torch to the more capable parties. Why wait a hundred years?

      • JDA

        The statue created by you as a prominent member of our chase community would be better than anything a better sculptor might do.

        And we can put Jake’s hat on it.

        And Seeker can write an inscription that’s way too long.

        And Zap can tell him why his inscription is wrong.

        And Ken can tell the rest of us who is correct.

        I’M HOME
        Lugnutz

  29. In the Esquire article, Mr. Fenn says he gets about 100 emails a day. But that only three people have emailed him with the correct area. I thought it would have been more by now.

    • Are you sure that’s what Forrest said James?
      “correct area” ?
      Here we go again…

      • Hi Jake, Did you read the article? That’s was what it seemed to say to me. Did you have a different interpretation? If so, please say what your thoughts are.

        • James, There’s a difference between our interpretations and what he said and that goes for those that interview him or talk to him without audio or video to back it up.

          • Thank’s Jake, Your right, nothing was said about any correct area, just key words, that he looks for. I’ll try to be more careful, with my wording in the future. It was the numbers, that got my attention. Because it was something I’ve suspected for seven years. I guess my thoughts, were another example of conformation bias.

        • Thanks James, I appreciate you reading the article again.
          Don’t get me wrong, I interpret the key words as a labeled place but it could also be a name of a person or a thing.

          I think we can rule out places like West Yellowstone seeing it’s probably been in hundreds of emails to him and is a larger area and I don’t think it’s a creek name considering creeks usually run for at least a mile but could be.

          • Hi Jake, Yes, I ruled out Yellowstone for the same reason. And maybe we could rule out Colorado, and Montana, for the opposite reason, (not enough attention )? IMO

          • West Yellowstone and Yellowstone are bad examples.
            I think the key words are much smaller specific places and i think it’s safe to eliminate coordinates because they involve numbers not words.

          • Hi Jake, I agree the key words are smaller places, like the name of a creek, campground, monument, or trail head, ect. I like a key word, being the name of a trail head, because it starts at a specific place, and leads somewhere.

          • Really?

            You gut will rule out an area because there’s a lot of searchers and there should be more than three key words mentioned, if that’s the case?

            Here’s a WhtaIF… whatIF tee same earlier searchers [with the first two clues] e-mailed fenn days/weeks/months later and stated there process and mentioned those words… and never heard from again…lol better hope they were not searching that area and quit trying to solve the poem.

            I mean, do you think fenn is going to say when those words were spoken or make a comment hours or days later, after reading an e-mail that has that ‘type’ of information. I’d bet those words were mentioned well more than a year or two ago…imo.

  30. Is anyone working on deciphering the “Special Words from Forrest Fenn to searchers” on the final page of Jenny Kyle’s book? The first step is pretty clear, but otherwise she’s got me stumped so far.

    • Oz10: it’s a cipher consisting of the integers from 1 to 80 scrambled. The cipher is not stand-alone — other parts of the book are required to decrypt the message.

      • Excerpt? Not sure what you’re looking for. Sure, I could reproduce the 80 integers in their scrambled order here, but that wouldn’t do you any good. You need the book to decrypt them.

      • Oz10: I’ll go ahead, but only because the number order will be of no use to you. (I wouldn’t otherwise because I wouldn’t want to negatively impact Jenny’s book sales.) The numbers are on three lines of 32, 32 and 16.

        41 10 73 22 80 28 76 6 32 53 61 19 1 36 56 23 65 40 13 67 29 2 21 45 39 3 79 51 49 24 27 11

        17 69 4 71 50 5 30 57 25 7 60 35 12 20 8 70 52 26 62 42 14 54 31 9 33 72 55 37 15 58 75 66

        43 74 68 59 16 46 34 18 77 63 44 64 78 38 47 48

        • I see. I will buy it, how many pages in the book? Also, does it mention what will be the result, a single word?

        • Hi Oz10: 215 pages. (And to read into your question, no — these 80 numbers do not refer to page numbers — Jenny has revealed that much, so it is not a simple book code.) The result of the decryption is presumably a sentence. The instructions that precede the code are: “The following code is Special Words from Forrest Fenn to searchers. Can you solve the puzzle and discover what they are?”

      • Zap, in the description of her book I found the following:

        -A special note to searchers from Forrest on the last page of the book. These words at the end are in code, though. Will you be able to solve it and discover what they say?

        Where did you see the book is needed to decrypt them? Jenny said it?

        • Hi Oz10: I went back to check my memory — I was correct about it being a single sentence from Forrest. Jenny wrote on her blog:

          “The solution provides a sentence from Forrest to searchers.”

          On the content of the message, she added in response to a question:

          “They offer something towards knowing the location. That is all I should say.”

          And now more specifically what you were looking for:

          “Q) Is the code self contained and all that is needed to solve it is on the last page?”

          “A) No, other book pages are needed to solve the code. Discover and follow the clues.”

          “Q) Other than general knowledge of how some ciphers work, do I need any other resource to solve the Fenn code, or is everything I need found inside your book? As an example: do I need a copy of TTOTC?”

          “A) All is in the book.”

          “Q) Is the page number part of the number code?”
          “A) No”

          “Q) Do you have to solve the other codes in order to solve the FF code?”

          “A) The FF code cannot be solved by just the back page alone, and so uses other elements throughout the book- but those pieces should be able to be deduced- as they can be seen to relate to TTOTC.”

          • I don’t have the book so maybe shouldn’t offer, but looks like the Beale papers. Maybe it is something along those lines. Maybe pages 32,16,80 and the words the numbers relate to. First letters, syllables, etc….Maybe time stamps in TTOTC could offer his age which in turn could offer page numbers where numbers can be substituted for words. Or, figure it out yourself, we have other, bigger fish to fry, 🙂

          • PoisonIvey: as I wrote above, Jenny has already said the code is not page numbers. A person with the book will soon figure out what those numbers are for.

            As for your “bigger fish to fry” comment, we dissect practically every public utterance and word that Forrest puts to page here, and yet a full sentence hint from Forrest that apparently no one but Forrest and Jenny knows is small fry?

            Obviously the hint doesn’t give away the farm, otherwise Jenny would have a private advantage. But this is why the hint is particularly interesting to me.

          • Zap – what if the message is ‘Drink your Ovaltine’ or ‘waiting out winter’ or some such? Hope you’re in a sharing mood when you figure it out.

          • Hi TBug — since Jenny wrote that the words “offer something towards knowing the location,” and Forrest wrote the foreword to her book, I’m hopeful that it isn’t something pithy or generic. Jenny’s encryption required a lot of work on her part, so she must have thought they were worthy of her time.

          • didn’t say those numbers reference page numbers. If you can’t figure what is being said in a post, maybe this is to much for you, lol, joking of course.
            Surprised you haven’t looked at the Beale papers. You said you have rows of 32,32,16. Those, I was referring to as page numbers, not the numbers. Read the solve for the second Beale paper. Really Zap…It was just an assumption. I said I didn’t have the book.

          • PoisonIvey: I know you’re trying to be helpful, but without the book you’re not going to be able to do so. As for the Beale Papers, the whole thing is/was a hoax. I don’t know why anyone still spends any time on it. I proved it was a hoax (to my satisfaction anyway) over 20 years ago.

          • Lugnutz: I guess you’re right about needing LASIK (I assume that’s what you meant about replacing your eyeballs): I count 17 letters. 😉

          • Linda: I share your pain. It’s not simple substitution — the incidence of coincidence is only 3.85%.

          • Zap –

            I wish!

            It was during the lasik exam that I was told I need both lenses replaced.

            I am told this is the most common surgery in America.

            Though I am rather young for it.

          • Hey guys , just a guess but what if # 1-16 represent spaces? I would then guess the last word to be “imagination” but I’m probably wrong!

        • I gathered that. So I get to keep guessing until something works, LOL. That Jenny Kile is a crafty one, no?

          I did confirm your reference to knowing what the numbers are for, and basically I found a whole bunch more …

    • Would love to discuss Zap via e-mail. I have part of the Forbidden word deciphered (imo only) but not sure what the next step is or if I took a wrong turn. Let me know if you would like to discuss it more.

  31. Hi Seeker, The two parties that were 500 feet from the chest, must have had a few key words.

    • Why James? I do not believe that Forrest has ever said that “The word that is key” is necessary to solve the riddle. All one needs is the poem, the book and a good map. He just said that he was surprised that no one was in tight focus of a word that is key (Paraphrased). For me the “Word that is key” just helps one see the big picture, but not needed to find Indulgence – but it will help – Like a hint helps figure out a clue – JMO – JDA

      • Hi JDA, Not the “word that is key”, But the two or three key words, that he says he looks for in searchers emails to him. There had to be something in those emails that rang a bell, for him to say, that they were within 500 and 200 feet of the chest. No?

        • If they were within 500′ or 200′, but didn’t know it, why would they have the keywords? If they stumbled upon, let’s say a waterfall. Wrote Forrest that they had been to the waterfall, but that the name of the waterfall was not one of the key words – maybe one or two of the keywords related to the trail or road that led to the waterfall. Maybe a landmark on the way – but that the waterfall itself does not play an important role in finding Indulgence etc. Just guessin’ JDA

          • Hi JDA, Dif you read what he said, in the Esquire magazine article, about his email. He said he looks for two or three key words, in searchers emails to him.

          • Yes James, I read what he said. Maybe I should explain it a bit differently.

            Let’s say that I wrote an email to Forrest. In this email I say that my wwwh is A warmspring near YNP. (This is keyword #1 – Forrest pays attention) I then say that I followed “Red Canyon” down the mountain for five miles. (Red Canyon is key word #2 – Forrest pays more attention). My hoB is an old cabin that was once owned by a Bobby Brown. (Not a key word) etc. etc. I end up at an overlook that “happens” to be within 500 or even 200′ from Indulgence. I accidentally wound up at the overlook – Not because of the overlook, but because I saw a waterfall that I thought was my Water High. I had used two words that were key, but using those words did not mean that I was going to end up 200′ or 500′ from Indulgence. Lots of opportunities to mess up before the end.

            Hope that this better explains my point of view – JDA

  32. Just A side note, As far as I can see, the first two years of this forum, and CC. Were not archived. That was when Mr. Fenn was most active on the blogs, and sadly all those posts are gone.

    • Oldest comment I have found thus far by Forrest (April 2011):

      Susan,
      You should have been with Eric when he was flying an airplane. I think it was the only time I was ever speechless. Nice to here from you again. f

    • James-
      Why do you think that…? Worse…why do you say it as if it’s the truth rather than your uninformed opinion??

      Everything that was ever posted on this blog is still here..with a couple of exceptions..including some contest pages and stories from one searcher who insisted that I remove their adventure pages when I kicked them off the blog..
      Anything Forrest ever wrote is still here…scrapbooks, vignettes, comments, interviews…everything…
      So what’s your beef?

        • Hi Jake, I personally believe that all the information on the hunt is still there, you just need to dig!
          I like JDA finding a rainbow, out of all my searches I have not found a rainbow!
          Jake, I hope you have found a rainbow they are so beautiful and symbolic.
          Thank you JDA, Jake and also our host Dal who does a terrific job!
          Best regards, Martha

          • Hello Martha my dear,
            I’m digging alright, but it might be my resting place.
            I see rainbows everyday with my polarized specs.
            I’m just glad Dal puts up with us.

      • Hi Dal, No beef, It’s just that when I go to page one of the nine clues, and poem archives. The first posts I see, are dated 2013, instead of 2011. Which, is what caused my uninformed opinion. Sorry.

        • James-
          Not all discussions were started at the same time. Nor were all started immediately after the blog began.Some came much later.

    • The first post on this blog was The Beginning.It was published on August 23, 2011…right after Forrest’s birthday. That post eventually became the format for the home page…but originally it was just a post.
      The first comment on that page was from Irene..she still comes here once in a while. Next was Stephanie. Although Stephanie doesn’t stop by here very often I believe she is still an active searcher.
      Anyway…my point is that we archive…we don’t toss…
      This comment is number 273,476 on this blog…most probably belong to Seeker 🙂
      There have been 490,824 spam comments that were never allowed on the blog.
      We’ve also had 316,274 malicious attacks that have been turned away.
      There are 1,188 posts that are available…
      I have no idea how many photos…
      But there are about a hundred links to stories about Forrest from the press including radio, TV. magazines, websites and newspapers.

      Just sayin…
      BY THE WAY you can find the first post here:
      https://dalneitzel.com/2011/08/23/in-the-beginning/

      • Dal, your post is very timely as I have just been wondering about reading past posts. How does one search the archives or look for Odds n Ends entries for a certain date? Is there a link? Thank you.

        • Linda-
          The entire left hand column is an index..
          If you wanted to read any of the previous Odds n Ends pages click on Searcher Discussions. That will bring you to a list of topics for which there are discussions…
          For instance “Where Warm Waters Halt”. If you click on that link you will be taken to the current “Where Warm Waters Halt” discussion page.
          However, further down on that list is “Where Warm Waters Halt Archive”. Clicking on that link will take you to an index of all the previous discussion pages on the topic of “Where Warm Waters Halt” beginning with the most recent. Depending on how popular the topic has been there can be many pages going back years…or just a few pages going back years.

          FYI: I generally move a page of comments to the archives after about 600 comments because it begins to take a long time to load up with a slow broadband connection.

          Another FYI; If you look at the URL for this page you will see that it has a number 69 at the end. That means there are 68 previous pages with comments on this topic in the archive. The URL also gives you the date this page was started. In the case of this page it was 10/30/2018.

          • “The entire left hand column is an index..”

            Dal, from your perspective sitting inside our computers and looking out at us, it’s the left hand column.

            But for Linda and the rest of us looking at your site, the column is on the right.

          • aard-
            Good Grief!
            Thanks for the correction!!!
            I constantly refer to that side of the page as left…I don’t know why…maybe I need to wear a glove only on my right hand for a few weeks…

          • Well, then, Dal – I suggest you retrace all of your solves in which an ‘end is ever drawing nigh’ took you to the left, but this time go in the direction of the other left. I wonder if this may mean you are one of the 200 footers!

          • Aardvark Bark

            This is a good place to mention something.

            Here’s the thing.

            If Nigh does not mean left you don’t get to say to Forrest

            But you said Nigh! Doesn’t that mean left?

            Food for thought.

      • Dal – do you secretly work for the FBI?

        (don’t worry, i won’t say anything if you do 🙂 )

        • Curious Hobbit!! You’re still alive. Thank God! Good to see you post again my friend. Hope all is well with you!!

          • Pdenver et al: our Curious Hobbit made a single post here about a month ago, but then just as quickly disappeared. Hope that’s not the new normal: his wit is certainly missed!

          • Hello Zaphod. I had not known he had posted before. His last post that I can remember was on the Poetry Page and that was quite some time ago.

          • Hi Pdenver: I may have his post saved in my filed email since it was so unexpected(and it may well have been more than a month ago, but not so long as 6 months). But I do remember it was a “drive-by” post. I responded enthusiastically at the time as did others, but it ended up as “1-and-done.” Hopefully he’s more engaging this time!

          • Well pdenver — now that I check my filed email I can’t find anything previously from our Hobbit this year! I’m either losing my mind, or perhaps the post was on a different forum. In any case, welcome back from your sabbatical, Inquisitive Middle-Earther!

          • Hobbit’s jaundice just cleared up. I miss him like I would miss a rash on my patootie. 🙂

        • Kermit,
          If you’re coming back, please don’t throw plastic garbage in my can. The recycle bin is close by.
          FBI = Forrest’s Best Interests

        • Hello Nikan…. good to hear you post again. Heck, I thought maybe you were sitting on a beach somewhere, sipping on a cold one with a bronze box under your chair….lol welcome back my friend….. until next time… see ya curious hobbit…..

  33. It’s good to see you guys and gals getting up to speed here, only to hit another bump or few.

  34. Iv’e thought that there had to be some degree of continuity between the clues, so that one clue could lead to the next. Iv’e thought that if the clues were to far apart, that there wouldn’t be enough continuity to make the connection, that there would be to many distractions/ rabbit holes, between the clues. I thought if there’s continuity, between the later clues, that it would have to apply to WWWH as well, in a smooth continuous flow. This made me think, that WWWH, shouldn’t be hard to find, that it is some how right out in the open, staring us in the face. Something that we’ve seen, but blew off, because it may have seemed to obvious, or didn’t seem to fit the poem, at the time. Iv’e had a possible solve for Tarry all, in Colorado, and a possible solve for the Kendall Valley, in Wyoming. But if I was to search again, I would go back to the beginning, back to Santa Fe, and the close in places. I think searchers moved on to quickly, there was a lot of momentum, in the beginning of the chase.

  35. I’ve spent a few weeks thinking about my last trip. Did the walk of shame (felt more disappointment than shame) as usual, but had some odd thoughts afterward. It seems like the best ideas I have for the chase are on the way home. Maybe the altitude dulls my mind a bit and when my brain gets more oxygen on the way home it kicks into gear and sorts through the subliminal cues I saw during the search.

    What was interesting this trip is that I saw a tarantula, scorpion and rattler (fortunately not at my search location) but the most dangerous thing I ran into was Jimsonweed. Not that I partake. This got me to thinking, and my current question I want to ask Mr Fenn is “What is your spirit animal?”. As I mentioned I had some odd thoughts on the way home.

  36. I found out about this story and quickly found myself up to my ears in the forking of information that I find absolutely intriguing. I have read “Journal of a Trapper”, “Trappers of the Far West”, “Eleven years in the Rocky Mountains”, “Introduction to The River of the West” and so on. Every one of them as interesting as the first.

    What I learned is that no matter how hard things are today, NOTHING is as rough as a single day for a mountain trapper in the 1800’s (or today for that matter). Following the story though, I have found out a lot about Montana, Wyoming, Colorado, and New Mexico.

    I’ve learned my fair share of historic schoolhouses in Wyoming and Colorado. It’s fascinating how people with so much to do back in the time, took time to stop and build schools for kids and helped provide them a chance at a prosperous future. I believe that I know the schoolhouse that FF spoke of in his book TTOTC, at least it makes perfect sense that this one would be it.

    I took my first trip to look for treasure, I had to take a loan to do so. Like so many, I was wrong but I felt so confident that I drove 2,800 miles in 3 days to find out (had to call in sick to work one day).

    I’ve also dug up old highway maps and plotted the quickest course to Cody WY. so that I can trace the scenery and see the views that FF saw so many times. Albeit, I am sure with a Brother and Sister in a car going 30mph and no doubt packed like sardines that there was many things going on and probably not too much time to take in all of the sites. I only wish that I could see the journey through 1930’s eyes without all the man-made obstacles that litter my sight.

    I have a solution that I will be following up on this coming August-September when my family takes a proper vacation. My Son being the avid angler, we are going to learn to fly fish together. He is 13 and very outgoing. My Daughter who is 15 will be complaining about the lack of service or wifi I am sure but that is exactly why we are doing this. The treasure is an added bonus if we find it.

    If anyone is interested about the roads from Temple, TX. to Cody WY. back in the 1930’s and 1940’s, here is a path that I would have mapped to get there in the least amount of time. Each road/highway is listed as #(#) where the first number is the old road and the number in parenthesis is the current road. If there are no parenthesis then the road is still the same.
    Temple 190 (190) Lampasas
    Lampasas 190 (183) to 74A (84) to 84 to 83/277 (84) to Abilene
    Abilene 80 (I20) to Roscoe
    Roscoe 84 to Lubbock
    Lubbock 87 (87/287) to Amarillo
    Amarillo 87 (87/287) to Dumas
    Dumas 87 to Raton
    Raton 87 (I25) to Denver
    Denver 87 (287) to Fort Collins
    Fort Collins 287 to Laramie
    Laramie 30/287 (30) to Rawlins
    Rawlins 287 to Sweetwater Station
    Sweetwater Station 19 (135) to Riverton
    Riverton 26/789 (26) to Shoshoni
    Shoshoni 20/789 to Thermopolis
    Thermopolis 120 to Cody
    Cody 14/20 to Yellowstone
    Yellowstone 20/191 to West Yellowstone

    This poem haunts me at night. I have a feeling many can relate. I have come up with one of my own.
    As I snuggle into my bed so fine
    And start to close my eyes,
    I start to recite the poem by line,
    And quickly I do rise.

    I begin to toss and turn in bed
    Saying each line by heart,
    Not long, but within my head.
    The rambling begins to start.

    From there it’s a place for the live,
    The morning is ever drawing nigh;
    There’ll be much coffee for my drive,
    Through heavy trucks and cars going by.

    If I’ve been wise and stopped this craze,
    Lay quickly down, my head to rest,
    But hurry quickly with speedy ways,
    Off to sleep my brain needs best.

    So why is it that I cant rest
    And my wife is snoring like a bull?
    Then I remember it’s Forrest’s chest,
    Now I’m tired, with a day that’s full.

    Sitting at my work computer,
    I’m scanning maps, archives, and all.
    I quickly minimize when the boss comes over
    So I don’t get canned and have to bawl.

    This whole ordeal gets my creating juices flowing. I love it whether it’s ever found even if it never existed at all. Thank you FF and thank you Dal!

    “If any man seeks greatness, let him forget greatness and ask for truth, and he will find both.”

    LL

    • Nice poem LL. My son and I learned to fly fish together and did it for the first time on our first trip to Yellowstone. Very rewarding experience that I owe to this treasure hunt. Enjoy!

    • That’s the spirit . . . when I think of LL, I think of — among other names — Lois Lane, Lana Lang, and Lori Lemaris. Maybe y’all already [ anticipated ] that.

    • Hi LL
      Really liked your poem.
      Being as old as dirt, but not as Mummified as some of the more venerable searchers, I’ve had the
      “opportunity” to travel a lot of your listed route in the pre interstate days. From Ft. Collins , I think Would have preferred to stay on 85/87 N. thru Douglas and Wheatland , then on to Casper, then jumping on 20 to the Shoshone area., as a slightly quicker route. IMO BAT

    • Hello LL. I concur with your thoughts of wishing to look through the 1930’s eyes. I wonder how the Fenn children handled their travel to Yellowstone. How did they entertain themselves from not getting bored and not asking their parents if they’re there yet? I think I would love to hear the story. I enjoyed your poem. You did a great job.

      • Thanks pdenver, I can think of one way Skippy, Forrest, and June didn’t keep rambling about being there yet. I recall Forrest’s stories about switches. If there is one thing I saw a lot of on my trip to Montana, it was plenty of switch material no matter where I was along the trip.

    • LL: “What I learned is that no matter how hard things are today, NOTHING is as rough as a single day for a mountain trapper in the 1800’s (or today for that matter). ”

      Unlike Forrest, I am extremely happy I was not born 100 years ago…. That one trapper story about how a Native band that came across him (poaching their beavers/game), stripped him down bare, then said “Go”, for the sport of hunting him down… apparently he being in incredible physical condition and out running all but one of the band… only to be “lucky” enough to walk 400 (?) or so miles back to some fort after yet again being lucky with the one he could not out run…. my god, what a story. No wonder it was written down.

      There is a reason why we get these stories. the 99.995% of the people we didn’t ever hear about, didn’t live long enough to have a story to write. If they did, they would be nearly as harrowing.

      for some reason I don’t step into the hero’s shoes, (or bare feet in this case) I always wonder about the ones that didn’t get away with anything…. I think I am too much of a realist.

      Hat’s off to the natural law of selection… I am certainly not going to bad mouth any natural laws 🙂 for fear of p*ssing off any one of them.

  37. With all the talk of the roads the Fenn family may have taken from Texas to Yellowstone I thought the following link may be of some interest.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SIW2-bH84u4

    I do not think there is any help in finding the treasure, it will give a good idea of the travel conditions. Most is a little earlier than Forrest’s time frame but still interesting.

    Enjoy the video, there are several points of interest mentioned in the video that have been mentioned by some of the searchers.

  38. Very random – but as my son says, “I love random”…. So do I.

    Does anyone in the chase ever feel like the chase has them smack dab in the middle of the Truman Show mashup with the Hunger Games set in Alice’s Wonderland?

    A lesson that I learned long ago, but had forgotten until OUAW, is that people remain the same until the pain of remaining the same exceeds the pain of making a change.

    Wild hearts ride again. They can’t be broken. Pink.

    And lastly, Namaste.

  39. Hi all- This winter I’m taking my first trip to the SW, with travel funds from my college to shoot my senior film project. This is a huge deal for me. I’ve been following the hunt for a while but have never been able to contribute greatly because I’m a college student in Wisconsin.

    I’m posting to see if any searchers who are into art or film or who love storytelling will be in the Santa Fe ish area in December and would be interested in being in my film. Keep in mind this won’t be a huge documentary feature, but rather a student film avant-doc style. I’m so excited to visit and film and experience the magic of a mini hunt.

    Please email me at thrillofthefilm@gmail.com if you’re interested in lending me your voice or stories or will be doing some searching in the area around this time.
    Or email me even if you won’t be around but have some stories you would love to have me feature in the work. I would love to hear them.

    hope to hear from some of you soon, in the meantime keep hunting my friends

    lily

      • Lugnutz-

        I have emailed him a few times. Dal said it’s not super likely he’ll respond because of all the media requests he gets, which is understandable. But perhaps I’ll keep bugging him 🙂

        • Lily

          In the subject of the email that

          Student Film about Forrest Fenn

          Those are two of his favorite things.

  40. To all:

    One thing I am curious about is why no one (to my knowledge) has ever discussed a secret map that is sometimes posted on the web. I am pretty sure it was hand drawn by f himself. When the deputy and I first found it, we though f was giving the solution away and we were in panic mode.

    Does anyone know where the history of the map and who posted it?
    https://www.google.com/search?q=fenn+map&rlz=1C1CHBF_enUS736US736&source=lnms&tbm=isch&sa=X&ved=0ahUKEwjTorDPjMXeAhWH44MKHZqeDLAQ_AUIEygB&biw=1396&bih=657#imgrc=vylnRYvSG41JMM:

    I would appreciate any comments you might have;

    Best regards to all;

    1f Billy

      • It is in his freehand style and the objects on the map were identified by the Deputy and I on our search before we found the map.

          • The link no longer works but the chair by the tree is interesting as it definitely feels Fenn-ish. Otherwise what does it say below eye?

          • below “eye” I read “carving” (or just maybe “calving”,as in a glacier shedding slabs of ice?)

          • I like the calving as that is definitely a feature found in the Rockies. Though glacial ice sadly hasn’t been sticking anymore in many areas.

            I do like how from alpha to omega it is straightforward Billy. You could always email Forrest and ask if he made it

          • based on the *r* in the word direction, I’m pretty sure it’s *carving* (with an uppercase A as also used in the word *distance*).

        • Nope, don’t see any stick figures.
          Why don’t you use a map that shows geography.
          I’ll bet a searcher drew that.

          • Jake what the heck map are we talking about?

            That link goes to a general Google search for Fenn Map

          • When you click on the link Billy posted, Lug, it will take you to a google search for *Fenn Map*, as you’ve already noticed.

            Just let it ride for a moment, and it will jump on its own to the image in question.

            It’s very low-res. I found and downloaded a more legible jpg of it without much trouble.

          • Lug,
            It’s not worth linking or seeing.
            The map is not a map but an aberration by sherif silly, I mean billy.

          • Try this, Lug.

            Google *matthew smith taos* and go to *Images*.

            Scroll down until you see a sketchy drawing with brown ink on kind of yellow ochre paper.

            If that doesn’t do it, well, as Jake F says, there’s not really any ‘there’ there anyway, you won’t be missing much. If you can’t live without it I’ll e-mail it to you.

        • I bet the Deputy done it, Billy.

          I wouldn’t call it a map. Looks to me more like a collection of illustrated ideas on a page from someone’s notebook. The Spanish cross, the “chair”, and whatever’s cut off on the left side all seem like separate items.

          The main drawing, the bit from the Alpha to the Omega, looks like someone trying to visualize or describe or communicate an *idea* of viewing through an arch or hole. A diagram or schematic of what to look for, as opposed to an illustration of an actual combination of landscape features, actually viewed in the field.

          As for ff, the omega is a deal-breaker to me as I don’t think an omega was ever an intentional component in the design of the chase. Others, of course, are determined to find them.

          The sepia ink and toned paper too would be an affectation in ff’s hands. If he sketched a map, I think he’d use a good old utilitarian black felt tip. Sepia, siena, walnut, and sanguine inks are commonly used by outdoor sketchers and artists. (As an artist, I aspire to someday rise to the level of hack, but I do do a fair amount of outdoor landscape painting and sketching, and have an okay collection of inks and pen nibs.)

          Also, though, by people trying to look like Da Vinci’s notebooks, trying to achieve a faux authenticity.

          Look for Michael Smith’s two search youtubes. I’ve seen this image attached to them in google searches, though it doesn’t appear in the videos themselves. His Taos #1, though, does have a quick flash of a page from his own notebook.

          Good luck with it. Improbable as it is, even if it were somehow from ff’s own hand, I don’t see it getting anyone closer to the chest.

          Jake

          • EDIT 2
            Reading on down, I see Randawg spotted Matthew Smith’s videos too, and has the priority post.

            But aside from the tag, neither the image nor the idea it illustrates appear anywhere in the two 2014 videos.

      • It can be a secret on the web. If no one knows it exists, how would they find it? If you have seen it before or can explain it, I would like to know.

        I’m listening…..

    • There are a few things that you can be certain.

      1. Forrest, even though he didn’t have a formal education is extremely smart. There is not going to be another map in existence (that he has made) that will help you.

      2. It will not accidentally be found within the next few years.

      3. As time goes by, the chance to accidentally finding the treasure will increase.

      These are all my opinions. I’ve been wrong on my first hunt and I could be wrong again but there is one thing that I am not wrong about. Forrest is a very clever and smart individual. I wish I could pick his brain about life in general, I love his stories and his wit.

      “Be ashamed to die until you have won some victory for humanity.” – HM

      Forrest has done such a thing.

      • LL ~’There is not going to be another map in existence (that he has made) that will help you.’
        What do you mean by “(that he has made)”? I didn’t know fenn made maps… can you explain what ya mean…

        1. Ed-u-ma-kated or not, a piece of paper doesn’t explain / creates intelligence. However, I’m pretty sure there’s a map.. fenn has told us to marry clues to a map.
        2. fenn has stated no one will happen upon the chest.
        3. fenn has also stated, time will have an impact of the clues. in 3009 it will be more difficult…
        Accidentally means by chance. It is possible that time may reveal the chest, or an archeology team comes across it. In fact, In a 1000 years, it might be more likely for that to happen rather than someone solving the challenge.

        These aren’t opinions, but statements from fenn himself.

    • Hello Sherif Billy. Let’s pause and take a moment to think this through. If this is a “secret map” drawn by Mr. Fenn, would he post this online and cancel his reasons for the Chase? Did someone else take this map to post? If one searches for Mr. Fenn’s signatures online, one will find script and print versions. You’ll see the link you’ve provided shows different styles to Mr. Fenn’s.

  41. LL-

    You stated: ” There is not going to be another map in existence (that he has made) that will help you.”

    Could you please enlighten me as to how you know this? Did f ever say so? If it was drawn by someone else, why would they be so revealing and yet be so cryptic?

    Please explain

    • S. Billy, that map is not in f’s freehand. Sorry to tell you, but that is not f’s map. It’s pretty easy to compare the way f writes/ or free hands, and this map isn’t close. One example, just the “g” alone should tell. F’s “g’s” look like a 6. Always. At least what I see, maybe something out there can argue, but most of the time, never “g”. His “A’s” look like 4’s. Not on this map. And, f can draw a lot better then that. But the proof is in the letters, you can compare yourself. It’s obvious.

      That map is not very revealing. Very basic. You can believe what you want, but this map doesn’t pass the f test.

  42. I feel like a kid at a birthday party and all the kuds are chanting “cake, cake, cake” as if it were time time to get on with it.

    You are the secret map. We all are.

  43. Do you ever just have a thought pop into your head and you think, how did I not see this sooner? Like just now, it occured to me that FF said Eric Sloane died on a street in New York waiting for the light to change. Im picturing the street sign saying “dont walk” and he’s waiting for it to change to say “walk”. And then it hits me. Duh! Walk verses halt as in the poem!

    But I decided earlier today that Im reading the poem wrong. I think I see it now. But it isnt so much about walking verses not walking. Its about dychotemy. FF has said Eric was a dychotemy and that is one of the things he admired about Eric. Basically, it means he could be two opposires at the same time. Remember the story of FF working in the cafe? Frosty was the cook. He was a dychotemy. His name suggests cold or ice or winter and yet his job is to heat/cook/bake. He was a dychotemy.

    FF also has referred to the poem as a riddle. Ive been baffled as to how it is a riddle. Does anyone else see it? I see it now.

    • I think Foorest is all about dychotemy and duality, likes to pair opposing ideas, often hiding in plain sight (e,g,, “i didnt want to BROADEN the clues by POINTing them out”). I believe a mindset includung this type of perspective could be quite helpful.

      • Good example, ken.
        Whats the tie-in? What makes them connection /associated and contiguous?

        • I remember *Mapsmith* talking about this subject 4 or 5 years ago and the many examples from the poem and other writings from Fenn… duality, yin yang, parallels etc., which started me thinking about the complexities involved trying to interpret Fenn’s poem. No surprise there, right? Somewhere along the line I *branched out* to explore the possibility that maybe the *dichotomies* were more of a hint at something different… perhaps in line with being more *comfortable* in the middle, or a compromise of sorts. Different aspects of *logic* have a tendency to negate the possibility of a *middle ground* or a point of *flexibility*. Yes no, black white. Why not (maybe), or (gray) ? The forums are also a good example of a dichotomy.

          • Idioms come into play as well. Not just words, but how they are phrased. This might be were imagination kicks in, and how the idea of “knowing the place for the first time” might have the affect we need for understanding how to read the poem.

            The perfect example, imo, is; “take it in”
            We automatically want movement in a ‘treasure hunt’ So, the stomping mode goes into high gear and relates to how the poem is now read, target fixated.
            For me, that is the illusion of the words. We create our own illusion of how this should all unfold without looking at another possible straightforward concept… envision the location, not only of the past… but down the road… not unlike; conflict piled on top of conflict, line of thinking. But, more on a geographical line of thinking; derived from those physical features.

            This is where I have to chuckle almost every time someone says; specialized knowledge.
            Which for me is advance knowledge or expertise. However, fenn did say; A comprehensive knowledge of geography might help, And we need to “learn” WWH.
            So here’s a question.. do we research the heck out of everything or do we learn on site?

            This brings me to two thoughts; Becky’s unanswered question, and the path not being direct until we are certain of the location, beforehand.
            Not unlike learning WWH.. we may need to learn the blaze as well [ or every dang clue ] at “A” place on a map.

            “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

            Seems to me… observation is going to be a critical part of the solve… not a simple task of stomping point to point. LOL yet the poem has done it job.. it has sweaty bodies all over the RM’s. We created our illusion of what we think a treasure hunts should be or acted out as…

            “It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking”… searchers “didn’t quit, they left the poem.” IMO, they quit thinking and was only target fixated, because that had false hope/confidence ~ they knew it all…on site, because of how many read the poem as stomping point to point only.

          • Seeker;

            Above, Flutterby mentioned dichotemy, and you mentioned idioms.
            A dichotemy is defined as: a division or contrast between two things that are or are represented as being opposed or entirely different.

            an idiom is defined as: a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual word.

            Maybe both apply. What if the poem, when seen from one level takes you from one place in a quite large area, to a general area where Indulgence is to be found, and then you need to, ( as you say) “Take it in” – viewing it all over again, in a quite confined area?

            The “Idiom” – a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual word.- Hidden within the poem there is the idiom that says, now that you are here in the general search area, look again, this time under a microscope – bring into tighter focus – what you see before you. IMO Indulgence can be located from a single trip through the poem, but If one pauses at the final “Area” and takes a refreshed, more focused look, one can see all of the elements of the poem that got you there, at this one much smaller location, and the actual “finding” of Indulgence becomes easier. JMO.

            Making sense out of a bunch of words whose meaning is clouded and appear meaningless at first glance can take one to a world not easily visible at first glance – Without the aid of a microscope, the world that an amoeba lives in can not be seen – But what do I know? NADA – JDA

          • Seeker…not sure you caught my drift exactly. By introducing *idioms* into the equation the problem becomes exponentially more tragic. There are literally millions of them in our language. My point was more simplistic…. by *synthesizing* or *evolving* beyond what we are trained to recognize in the dichotomies presented, much like a child could more easily accomplish because they are not privy to the accepted nuances. Indecision is the key to flexibility. I believe the *survivability* of the poem relies on a more simplistic approach.

          • Deliciously horrible; bitter sweet; soft steel; gritty sweetness; unbounded precision; limitless direction.

            A song that best captured Dichotomy, imo, was “Killing Me Softly With His Song”

            I feel certain Forrest knows the lyrics.

          • Hi Seeker: what I find potentially humorous about this oft-quoted line…

            “It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic”

            … is that I believe that’s exactly what Forrest did. He hid the chest on a Sunday afternoon on the last day of spring: spring “break”. Wouldn’t that be a kicker?

          • Jda, you say:
            Making sense out of a bunch of words whose meaning is clouded and appear meaningless at first glance can take one to a world not easily visible at first glance
            And,
            a group of words established by usage as having a meaning not deducible from those of the individual word.- Hidden within the poem there is the idiom that says, now that you are here in the general search area, look again, this time under a microscope.
            This would fall under being “subtle”.
            How could you be solving clues and get to this idea of thought when the answer to some of the clues cannot be answered in a subtle point of view?
            This is what I’ve been trying to tell you. It’s obvious that the answer to some important info is not given in an “un-subtle” way. (clear, precise, straight forward, without a doubt, obvious). Or it would flat out say, “wwwh is here, or the blaze looks like this. And, he says those answers are not given in a “subtle” way.
            (hidden, elusive, not obvious, difficult to perceive, tricky).

            So my question to you is, how do you justify solving for all the clues when f has pointed this out? You’ve said that solving the poem for the end spot and not solving the clues is foolish. No way that you would know the end spot before wwwh. But everything f has said points to this idea. We will go in confidence, path will be direct, but foolish to look for the blaze before wwwh, you won’t know wwwh is until you have the chest (so how could you be confident?), the only clue you need to solve is the last one, BotG is needed, a physical presents, the poem solve is like putting an “X” on a map.That is why I say, and now Flutter has brought up, Is the poem being read correctly? Is the approach to solving clues the wrong method? And with the dual meanings of everything Fenn, the dichotomies if you will, is it the “poem” that must be followed precisely, and that poem has nine clues on your path?
            I think it was TT that had a write up on catch 22 a while back. And like Ken has pointed out, that is Fenn. I need credit, so I try to get a credit card but cannot get a credit card because I have no credit. The dilemma we all have faced getting out of high school. You need to learn wwwh, you will go in confidence, but you will not know you have wwwh until you have the chest. You need to “follow” all the clues, but the only clue you need to solve is the last.
            Can you see a pattern surfacing here? It’s a good discussion Flutter, It needs a lot more attention, IMO. Because the catch 22 in this whole thing is within solving the poem compared to solving clues. They are NOT the same thing, IMO. I could solve the poem, but I cannot solve all the clues. Not in the sense of being confident that I have the right solve and know everything I need from solving the clues. F’s own words, It can’t be done. The problem is, searchers can’t adjust. Just cannot get off the, I need to solve all the clues idea.
            Because they see solving the clues is solving the poem. IMO, the wrong approach.

    • Flutterby,
      Your handle is a good example. Not as its spelled, but as it is intended to be understood.

      Corrupting a word…

      This is where straightforward comes into play, imo.
      Most see that as KiSS, yet we’re told the poem is difficult.
      Some would say that is opposite, it can’t be both ways… but it can. Especially when written in poem form.

      Example;
      ~You have two kinds of secrets. The ones only you know. The ones only you don’t.
      They are both a secret, only not the same.
      ~Not unlike; Two can keep a secret if one is dead.

      So, how do you read; Begin it where… warm waters halt… and take it in the canyon down, ..not far, .. but too far to walk.

      Begin it where can be a place in two time periods
      warm waters that change
      Take it in as a view
      canyon as a depiction
      not far, physically and/or in time
      too far to walk, back in time?
      All is below the hoB ~ ‘Put in’ as interrupting, halting.. ‘not far, but too far.’

      Are we to look at the location twice? One being of the time you are present, imagining time for the past… geographically?
      What are we really looking at, and what would we see 1000 down the road?

      Synonyms are words that mean the same or nearly the same… but they don’t always mean the same.
      Example;
      -Halt means stop… or a change in direction or movement. Normally a temporary one. Halt can also refer to has dead or gone.
      -Begin it where can be a place at this moment or a place in time. And still represent the location.
      -Take it in can be a physical movement or action… or a view, or sight.
      -Put in can be to go in, or to interrupt, or a view…

      Most if not all the words in the poem can have an **opposite affect** of the word[s], phrases, usages, especially when in poem form… a type of literature that is meant for “interpretation.” … Inferring to, but not directly clarifying which interpretation was intended.

      Multiple Meanings and usages

      • Seeker you are entirely correct in everything you are saying. The poem is choices, always. IMO two choices are relevant for each choice, many others will not be relevant. Only by choosing the two relevant choices, for each instance, sequentially and in order will you precisely navigate your way to the resting place of the box. Not easy to do, but again in my opinion Forrest included a shortcut that will guarantee you are looking in the one and only correct area, thus allowing you a higher probability of choosing correctly. This shortcut is in stanza 3 IMO.
        Looked at another way the poem is about branches, when the road forks there are always choices. The real question is how many choices should we use ?1, 2 , 3 ? … does a Y have two or three? As stated above I believe we use 2 , but I don’t have the box. All the above is IMO only.

    • I think FF’s poem is meant to, and does, elicit a certain programmed response from us because of the way he constructed it and the way we (or most of us) have learned the English language. “Fenn-ese”, as I have previously called it, leads us down a path of preconceived conceptions about words and phrases he has selected to incorporate into his poem, and it is our learned response to/”understanding” of these words and phrases that makes us over-complicate his message. IMO, nuance should be Fenn’s middle name and the poem uses a lot of it, which is then further obscured because it is encapsulated within another layer of “distinction of expression” that his chosen medium accommodates, that being Poetic License. Our task may simply involve disentangling ourselves from our preconceptions when working on solving the poem and this may be why FF is known to quip “Imagination is more important than knowledge” and “Imagination isn’t a technique, it’s a key.”

      • Exactly Bow, Which is why we have so many different views on the same subject. We are programmed to think in one direction. Adjustments must be made.
        We all could read, we see what face value says, but it’s the “what if” that needs to be addressed. The what-if it’s the uncommon way of thinking that is the answer. Especially when f comments on certain things. “A word that is key”, instead of seeing that the only possible answers are either “that” or “key”, searchers start making all these guesses on some word. Because that is how we read into that statement.
        “The poem has 9 clues that if followed precisely”, instead of solving the poem and following it precisely, it’s the 9 clues that everyone focusses on. Don’t tell me there are clues, what is left, “the poem”.

        You hit the nail on the head Bow, we all have our ideas of how we would create a chase if we did it, so that must be how f did it. The thing is, to start, we need to totally empty our minds, and not use any preconceived ideas as we attempt a solve. We simply must read the poem and do what it says. Our egos and instincts must be put in check, Fenn likes proving the “know-it-alls” wrong. Freud would have no chance in solving this poem…

          • Jake, I smoke cigarettes- Canadian cigarettes, not the other legal kind lol.

            I know explaining this here would be not be received well. It involves the number of clues, the number of words, the number of stanzas etc etc- enough said about it.

            Keep on with your what you see here for the poem ,Jake. I enjoy your logic 🙂

        • I’ve been labeled Uncommon all my life lol. Maybe I have a chance!

          It’s 11:11:11 tomorrow, that’s also an uncommon sequence.

          • Jake.

            Did Forrest not say (Paraphrasing) that he felt like an architect writing the poem? Why did he say that? Think logically for a minute tells me he followed a form of structure- symmetry. He created this poem following some form of structure. The chest , as he said, is not associated with a structure. But, But But …what about the poem? Well we have an architect perspective …no? He said so..no?

            Some have talked about his use of abbreviated words like, I have, it is, but other times in the poem he uses abbreviates of , I’ve and it’s. Why? Purposeful word counts. What does 166 mean? I have a pretty good idea. But does this help me with WWWH, HOB, meek, heavy loads, water high? No, not at all.

            It just shows that FF does have a method of thinking he uses when writing and speaking as it pertains to his poem. So when you have thinking, writing in a form of structure and symmetry, it’s important to figure his methods .

            How else would I be able to analyze what he says and writes and why he says it.

            He writes and speaks as a poetic contiguous architect .

            Simple geometric ,phonetic ,architectural literary symmetry.

            “Hear me all and listen good”

            In my opinions.

        • Mr. Tesla: have you turned your teleportation machine into a time machine? One of your 11’s seems to be 7 years off. 😉 Though certainly celebration-worthy to toast 11/11 11:11:11 tomorrow morning or evening!

          • Well Mr. Zap, 2+1+8=11. Double digits of the same do not get broken down further-11 in the universes law-11 is a Master Number.

            11:11:11
            Today is 11:1:11

            Master Tesla 🙂

          • I don’t know the Kabbalah but heard of it. I am speaking of sacred geometry.

            This poem is sacred geometry at its principle. On purpose or subconscious. It’s perfect geometric symmetry. That’s the numbers system to glean . IMO.

            Very helpful to me.

            Do you see it?

          • Oh, I see it alright. I just don’t like it. I abhor any number system that equates an infinity number of things to the same result:

            2018 = 218 = 281 = 1028 = 1082 = 2081 = 8012 = 8021 = 8102 = 8201 = 8210 = (an infinite number of other integers) = 11

          • Zap, umm… no , that’s not what I mean. Uncommon it is lol. There is no number system I use for this poem. Numbers won’t assist either. IMO. I agree on that.

            It’s what I see. I see that perhaps FF respects this Native American understanding of geometry. They honoured sacred geometry in their teachings, writings and petroglyphs.

            Anyways… nothing to see hear.

          • “This poem is sacred geometry at its principle. On purpose or subconscious. It’s perfect geometric symmetry. That’s the numbers system to glean . IMO.”

            Give me some of that stuff to think this way.

            I agree most of what the universe is what you say but I don’t think Fenn had this in mind. I’ve always been a deep thinker but don’t think it applies to his poem and the chase.

            There is no such thing as perfect in this universe unless it’s only in your mind. You can quote me on that.

            Glean tells me a lot about you.

    • thought he said Manhattan. Think after a little research into E.Sloane, could see it was New York, but f said Manhattan. There is a Manhattan in Montana.

      • Greg: Dal has previously said that Forrest specifically meant Toledo, Ohio (as opposed to the many other Toledos). So I’d say yes — it IS the city.

  44. Flutterby – one of the definitions of dichotomy is “polarity”. Forrest wondered about Frosty’s polarity.

    • My dichotomy, or oxymoron in this case (for me and not by the word alone), is “thinking”.

    • What to kids know about definitions such as these? I say very little. Most kids know the difference from hot water, warm water, and cold water, and there is nothing scientific or opposing in that learning process. Why did ff say, Begin it where warm waters halt. Instead of Begin where WWH. ?

      • Greg;

        There is a whole thread dedicated to – what is “it”. Many think that “it” refers to the quest or journey. Others may not agree. If “it” were not important, why would Forrest include it in that line?

        As I have suggested before, do a bit of research – you just might like it – JMO – JDA

      • Greg;

        There is a whole thread that deals with what is “it”. Many think that it relates to the quest or journey – others may disagree. If “it” were not important, do you think that Forrest would have put it in the line?

        As I have suggested before, a bit of research would be helpful – you just might like it. Just sayin’ – JDA

        • There has been so much written in the past 8 years, recorded audio, and video, not easy to find every single thread. JDA since it bothers you for me to post something, please disregard, I do not want for you to waste your precious time making responses. Blogs are research tools to learn from others comments, or compare thoughts by sharing. I know the old saying, information is power,, but that is only true if you have the correct information. As I see it your still searching like everyone else.

          • Greg;

            Your posts do not bother me. All I was doing was again suggesting that you do a bit of research. Your comments are as good (or as bad) as anyone’s True, Blogs are research tools to learn from others – I learn something new every day – because I take the time to do that research. – YUP, I am still searching like everyone else.- and learning, like most – JDA

    • That statement never could be true as a physical presence and imagination was always a requirement in my book.

    • Don’t we need a location of the clues first?
      The poem only seems to be designed as a direct path to the treasure… Clues that get you closer.

      “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f

      “I think the problem that searchers make is that they don’t dwell long enough on the first clue.”
      Dwell; live in or at **a specified place.**
      it also means; Dwell definition is – to remain for a time. Tarry Scant?
      Home; to the intended or correct position…focus attention on.
      Home of Brown?

      • Seeker, the first few clues are the simplest and towards the end the descriptions get tougher. 1st stanza ff gives a general description of the kind of area he went into as a 80 year old alone. WWWH fits several locations, TIDITCD, NFTFTW is a general statement, not totally defined. Put in below, on a map to the south, or on a river down stream. hoB, h is not capitalized, meaning not the only home. Brown being Capitalized can mean any thing that the name that includes Brown. The trick is finding a location where all the clues follow each other, to the next clues. Forrest mention four things you need to begin your search, the poem, a good map, a dictionary or Google. As ff has said you only can get so far with the puzzle at your desk. Then he kicks in Imagination, for everyone that is a bit different. FF is a smart man with a great imagination, and he admits it is a bit weird to some people. We already know ff hates following firm rules, he allows himself to use his imagination as it fits his thoughts. He has said those that were close, left the poem too soon, or got outside of the box searching for clues too far ahead, missing the treasure. As complex as he appears, he believes in the KIS principle, one thing at a time, take your time, and don’t move on till your sure of the spot your on is correct. Remember ff hid the tc not to be found, or stumbled on for 100-1000 years. That’s important to him, the longer it takes, the more successful the chase is.

  45. Can someone help me identify anomalies on the FF’s map? I don’t have TFTW (only TTOTC) so all the maps I’ve seen are online and somewhat difficult to read.

    Here are some things that jump out at me:
    – all mountain ranges appear to be just the name with an ‘s’ at the end. EXCEPT for Swan Range. If he followed the pattern, it should be the “Swans.”
    – many major rivers appear in blue. However, the Gallatin River is not highlighted as such.
    – anything else??

    Apologies if this has been done before – if so, please point me in the right direction because I can’t seem to find it in the internet’s history. If not, what do you see on the map?

      • Thanks PDenver, I don’t know if it’s just me, but I have difficulty reading the text on that map – especially when I zoom in.

        I found a higher quality one at: https://www.fftreasure.com/treasure-map/ (but be aware, my computer gave me some warning about this site). Just wondering if folks have noticed any other mapmaking errors?

        • I literally just clicked not to go to that site and then the first post I see is yours with that exact link. I do have one possibility related to that map that seems to point to a specific path worth looking but I haven’t eliminated it yet.

          I know, about as useful as a boat with a screen door in the bottom.

        • Hi Andy,

          Try getting to the map from the right hand side:
          under Important Information> Most Important Information> about 17 items down is “The Map”
          You can click on that one to expand it. I can make it bigger still by clicking “CTRL” and “+” simultaneously on my keyboard.

          (see the little dot just NE of Cody? why doesn’t it have a name? Is it Powell or Ralston? Is it important or just a glitch?)

          What else do people see?

    • Hey-O, ND –

      Just some notes on your notes, for starters.

      No one (to my uncertain knowledge) knows how much or what kind of direction ff gave Benchmark as to what is or isn’t on the printed map(s).

      As a point of departure, get ahold of one of Benchmark’s Road & Recreation Atlases for any one of the search states. The second map in each is a 2-page spread called “The Mountain West”, which kind of shows the base map from which Benchmark made the Fenn map(s). It centers on the particular state the atlas covers, so you won’t have any Montana on the one in the New Mexico Atlas, and no New Mexico on the one in the Montana Atlas, for examples.

      On that Mountain West map, as on the Fenn map(s), the Yampa River is present but not named, similar situation as the Gallatin River example you mentioned. Lots of the “plural” ranges you cited are “MTNS” instead; so they have “BIGHORN MTNS” and “LARAMIE MTNS”, for example, but the Swans are still “SWAN RANGE”, as on the Fenn map(s).

      Same peaks, for the most part, are named and marked by a “+”, as on the Fenn map(s).

      Benchmark did at least one more limited printing of a standalone Fenn map later, but I don’t know whether it was a straight reprint of one of the first two, or if it had additional alterations.

      I’m not aware of any in-depth discussion or examination of the cartography of these maps on the blogs. I’m more than happy to continue the discussion.

      For now, I hope you find these somewhat random quick notes I’ve added to your observations useful.

      Jake

      Benchmark printed a standalone poster-sized map for one of the Fennborees. One difference on that map that jumped out at me was Dinosaur Nat’l Monument. On the Fenn map in TFtW book, both the name and the little square marking the place are printed west of the UT/CO border, faded off in Utah, so to speak. On the Fennboree map, both the name and the little square marker have been moved east across the border into Colorado and cleanly printed. I imagine there are other little variants as well, but I never had access to the print, so never dove into it beyond noting the Dino change.

      • Oops – that last paragraph on the Fennboree map was supposed to be *before* the “Benchmark did at least one more limited printing . . .” paragraph.

      • Jake hits “beast mode” with his map research and analysis!

        Thanks! That’s good info. I haven’t seen much discussion in the past, and I don’t really think the “swan range” instead of “swans” is a big deal. Your findings kind of confirm that one is a benchmark particularity and not a fenn mistake/edge/abberation/clue. I have seen somewhere, historically, a discussion between two people (maybe Zap??? and someone else who said they were a cartographer, sorry, I don’t remember), that mentioned some glaring error that they wanted to cover with a marker/pen. Obviously, I’m a map noob b/c I don’t see anything beyond what’s been said.

        BUT, here is a hint to my thinking. I read the poem to my neice and according to her, WWWH is on this map! Dal and others are inside it.

        • Looking through my map files, I was a little fuzzy above on the printing history. So, in order:

          Map 1 – the one in Too Far to Walk, 2013

          Map 2 – the limited edition standalone, also 2013

          https://dalneitzel.com/2013/12/29/wall-sized-map/

          Dinosaur Nat’l Monument has been moved from Utah to Colorado; the little unnamed town dot (Powell, Wyo) has been removed; a compass rose has been added (it’s the little compass embedded in the ivory handle of a knife ff carried as a pilot in Vietnam).

          Map 3 – The Fennboree map, 2016

          https://dalneitzel.com/2016/04/02/new_map/

          Not printed by Benchmark, but printed from their files (Dal notes that ff made some revisions, but I don’t know what they were). Dinosaur is back in Utah and Powell’s town dot is back in Wyo, still unnamed (at least if the file Dal posted is as-built); an arrowhead in place of the compass rose.

          Pretty sure Benchmark printed a more monotone map later (kind of a sepia antique look iirc), but I don’t have files or any info on that one.

          I’ll add that this map, in all its versions, is a decent Rocky Mt 101 intro for searchers not necessarily familiar with the lay of the land. I don’t think it’s intended to provide any actual guidance, or get anyone any closer to the chest.

          Well, maybe a little closer, for someone coming at it in a pickup from Texas, Toledo, or New Zealand.

          Jake

    • NDKarl,
      I posted a similar observation a while back, but can’t retrieve the post site or person that I replied to. What caught my attention was not the Swan Range but the label Wind Rivers on the Thrill of the Chase book map. There is no such thing as “Wind Rivers” Range as far as I know, only the Wind River Range. It involves the same puzzle that you point out – the extra ‘s’ at the end. However, as others have pointed out, this might have resulted from editorial discretion, mistakes, or artistic license by the publisher Benchmark Maps rather than any intent by Fenn to implant a clue. I remain open to a map clue, but am highly skeptical.

      • That’s really just common usage, David, I don’t see a puzzle.

        The Rocky Mountains are the Rockies. It’s the Teton Range, the Bighorn Mountains, etc, but you’d go hiking, say, in the Tetons, or go up to the Bighorns for hunting, or cross the San Juans at Wolf Creek Pass.

        • +1 to this response. David, I thought the same thing the first time I looked at the map. But it appears that instead of Gallatin RANGE, they’ve used “GallatinS” for every mountain range. Except maybe the Swan. I don’t see anything here, and JAK’s other response seems to rule out this being a Fenn thing.

          I’m looking for “a good map.” and for my personal #1, A1, Best, Grade-A, optimum, perfecto-mundo solve, I only see clue 1 (and maybe a gray clue 2) on this map.

  46. When I say “Eric Spitznagel”, what does that conjure up in your mind?

    A German u-boat captain?
    A comic reaction..as in, “That caught me by surprise and I spitznageled all over my shirt.”?
    A famous author?

    Famous author is the correct answer. Last winter Eric interviewed a few of us..and Forrest for a magazine story he was writing. It was published in May in Amtrack’s The Nation Magazine. But Eric didn’t stop there he’s been known to get a lot of mileage out of a story. So he also published a luxurious edition of the same story on his own website…and it may soon turn up in Readers Digest and who knows where else…

    Anyway, Eric is a funny and very creative guy. Take a look at the story and interview with Forrest. ALSO…at the top of that page is a link to his bio…Read it!…not only will you be impressed, I suspect you will laugh til your underwear falls off.

    http://www.ericspitznagel.com/the-national/forrest-fenns-treasure/

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