Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Seventy


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618 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Seventy

  1. Someone once questioned why I type “JDA” at the end of my posts – when my JDA appears at the top – so everyone knows who is posting it already. Well, to me, it is like signing a letter. The person reading the letter already knows who it is from, but the name at the end just makes it more personal – at least to me. – JDA

    • Most people still sign their e-mail even though the recipient typically knows who it is from so I definitely have never seen an issue with it. Signing JDA is like a trademark to make your response more personal. If you stopped doing it I would definitely be bewildered.

  2. We had a little experience today that I think illustrates perfectly why a child could know the answers to the poem, instead of an adult. It was really very funny.

    One of the kids really likes to help feed the fish in our aquariums. We have quite a few large aquariums because we are kinda pet obscessed at our house. So I happened to be standing by the 100 gallon aquarium when my husband was dropping fish food in. I commented that it smelled terribly fishy (the fish food). That is when my daughter asked what the fish food was made of. My husband told her it was made of “fish meal”. She said, “yes. I know it’s their meal but what is it made of”, to which my husband responded again that it was “fish meal” He then explained that it was ground up dried fish. Our daughter was really surprised to hear this. She has been feeding these fish for years and she always thought the package said Fish Meal because it was a meal for a fish. In fact, she was surprised to learn that it is actually ground up fish.

    Definition of “meal” from Merriam-Webster
    1. an act or the time of eating a portion of food to satisfy appetite
    This would explain how the Fish Meal is a meal for fish.

    2. a product resembling seed meal especially in particle size or texture
    This definition says that Fish Meal is ground up fish in which the particles are the size of seed meal.

    So it turns out that Fish Meal really is a Meal for Fish. IMO

  3. There’s 9 clues and 9 president’s that didn’t have any college.
    George Washington was the first president. He was very brave and in the wood. Was it a Myth wooden teeth?? 1777 first year Thanksgiving was celebrated. 1777 George Washington wintered with his troops at Valley Forge and They were very cold. 1777 the battle at Saratoga springs. Forrest tripped and fell FLAT on his face on a aluminum grave marker. Forrest tripped and fell FLAT on his face on a Stone grave marker laying FLAT on the ground of the FRENCH soldier. FLAT in FRENCH is PLATTE. Saratoga Wyoming was originally called warm springs near the Platte River. There was once a train that was bringing the first shipment of trout to warm springs that broke down on a particular bridge over the Platte River and to save the dying fish had to dump all the fish over the bridge into the river and this was the first introduction of trout into the Platte just outside of what is now renamed as Saratoga..

    • William, that is a great search area for all the reasons you listed and a few more. Don’t miss the Hobo Pool when you go there, and take a look at Rainbow Canyon if you are feeling brave!!

    • That’s good research William, but not from the poem. To just go alone on that is a dart throw. Who knows, maybe it’s support info for what the poem solve will tell, but for just this info, it is outside the poem. Can’t be confident about it unless you could show the poem telling you all this info.

    • its a toss up between old Abe and the shoe got to go visit one or the other weather is a big factor it was so nice in Colo today it felt like spring. please stay safe out there everyone.

  4. Hope everyone had a safe Veterans Day! I got a free cheeseburger! I am going to New Mexico and Colorado after Thanksgiving. Where can I search around there where snow won’t get in the way? I have only looked in Montana and Wyoming.

    • ROAD HAWK,
      Good Hunting, Our ranges in a lot of parts of CO. are already showing goodly snow at elevation. Can’t speak for Northern NM.

  5. Could “throw my bones on that treasure” be a metaphor? Like FF knows in reality he wouldn’t do that, and also be why he changed the poem.. I think that treasure is more like hidden in plain sight per say, not in the open but close to where people are 200′ away at any given time. I know of a park that has a 3 mile loop that every single clue matches to a T. It’s a special place and a beautiful place with history and much much more.

    • Tough sell William. Still outside the poem, and, you don’t know what all the clues are. Any place can match the poem, you need to solve the poem first. Think about it, hidden in plain site? 200′ away from people? If that is the case, how could f hide it there, with the probability of someone maybe spotting him at any given time?

      • poisonivey,

        You said, “If that is the case, how could f hide it there, with the probability of someone maybe spotting him at any given time?”

        That is very easy to answer, remoteness and time of year.

    • Yes, please all re-read it – There are two ways to interpret: the chase and the kill. The former has all the thrill, the other does not.

      One will lead you to a specific place, the other leads to a word in the poem.

      One is ‘drawing’ a picture on a map, the other means the bitter ‘end of your quest.’

      One is figurative, the other is literal.

      The best and most obvious clue is “look quickly down”

  6. Thank you for being the good Samaritan. That is what we want, to end the search. Let us know what is the word that is key, home of Brown, the blaze plus the specific area for the end of his rainbow.

    Will you be posting that information immediately in order to save lives or do you have to go boots on the ground first to make sure there is nothing there?

    • lol, Oz. I didn’t notice he/she was such a good Samaritan. I really need to start reading entire posts. It’s funny, his/her post just looks so familiar to the one and done. The, “I’ve been working on this for a whole month now” types.

    • A Fenn contemporary, and a compatriot of alliteration in most of his superheroes’ earthly names. I wonder if Big Bang Theory’s Chuck Lorre will have a tribute this coming Thursday…

    • A Fenn contemporary, and a compatriot of alliteration in most of his superheroes’ earthly names. I wonder if Big Bang Theory’s Chuck Lorre will have a tribute this coming Thursday…

  7. That’s interesting. I’ve considered it all for a long time. Thanks for posting.
    I’ve got one more search trip in me, then I’m gonna call it quits on this thing,
    except for posting, in excruciating detail, the story of my solving and searching.

    Good luck to us all. As always, IMO.

  8. Congrats Phelix, you are the first this Winter. We will see if your “shelf life” lasts the Winter. Why are you using “translation”? Shouldn’t the poem be doing the translations? No need to stay tuned here.

  9. phelix,
    The word you think is the key: “WILL” as in Forrest’s Will. He leaves the TC to the one who finds it in his Will. That has been discussed many times. Are you suggesting that there is no treasure?

  10. What does everyone believe to be the reason that it took 15 years for Forrest to complete the poem? I think if we knew the answer then we would be able to solve it in a short time. If he already knew the spot then he must of already have great knowledge of the surrounding geography. So just what exactly was he up to taking so long to put these words together? And there is no special knowledge needed. The poem is all a person needs well and imagination.. but I’m still stumped on the 15 years.. I think knowing why 15 years is the key.

      • Was he working on any site in the Rockies when working on the poem? With all his experiences in his life just what was his greatest thrill and chase and where? The answers he already knows. I’ve wondered what was his mount Everest in life?

      • Somehow I would find this hard to believe. The gentleman seems to be specific with the things that he chooses to do. I could very well be wrong. To me, he seems to be a person on the go. A dreamer, I concur.

        • Forrest paid for the ambroskee hut to be moved to the Cody museum. Margaret( Molly) brown paid for the bath house to be moved to Washington Park in Denver. For some reason every time I read the poem and get to brave and in the wood I think of George Washington. And the city ditch in Denver is very interesting even if it isn’t related to the poem.

          • The reply button was gone on your comment box.no it’s the 24 mile long “city ditch” that was hand dug from the Platte into Denver that essentially made Denver what it is today. It goes to Washington Park. 24 miles 24 lines the park is a Three mile loop and t.s. Elliot said!! And the Denver museum is where he would leave his car! I could see everyone being suprised if it was in this park. And there is a replica of Washingtons mt.vernon home garden.And more very interesting things here

          • The “city ditch even runs right under some historic homes but not burried in pipes more like a water feature.. and Washington Park from my research sounds amazing even the statue of winkly blinkly and nod by Eugene fields.

          • William – I grew up with the Highline Canal in my backyard, so to speak. I still run the canal whenever I visit my folks in Denver. I had never heard of City Ditch. That’s an old piece of obscure history. Pretty cool and thanks for sharing.

          • I remember as a kid they would stock the ditch with trout I think once a year.
            I also remember the high line canal ran right beside my cousins house on Havana street. Thanks for the memories my fellow searchers,

          • Sandy-

            I also grew up walking many hours of the highline canal observing nature. I used to ride my first horse all along there. I have really found memories of those times. Thanks for reminding me.

    • Wiiliam ~ ‘What does everyone believe to be the reason that it took 15 years for Forrest to complete the poem?’

      Indecision is the key to flexibility?

      Might it be, when he felt all was cleared, cancer in remission… he could create a challenge that was worthy of the action.

      Besides the idea of getting folks of their lazy duff and out into nature, the other comment that seems to have been placed on the back-burner was, [paraphrasing] there was a recession and other problems in the country… and wanted to give some motivation, hope…

      If you were going to take time, build a trove of collectable gold, artifacts, precious jewels, buy a 25,000 $ antique chest to place it all in, make a 20,000 word autobiography so small it needs to be read with a magnifying glass etc…. Maybe he just decided to take the time to create a poem worthy of the task to match the dedication he put into it all-?- because he now had the time to do just that?

      I think a better question would be; if the thought of doing a poem started approx 1988 or 89 thur the early 2000’s [2003ish], why wait till 2009 or ’10’ to finalize it all by hiding the chest more than 20 years later from the first thought of… “taking it with him”…or at the very least, 7 years after the possible conclusion of the poem, the way he wanted it.

      Why wait till: “…at age almost eighty, I figured it was time to act…”
      Why not at 73?

      Ha… Hey, more power to Forrest. The way he’s going he’ll out live me. He may even out live George Burns {age-100} or Delphine Gibson… 114.

      • It seems like the longer one thinks about the search the more they complicate the problem. f

        some were able to figure out the first two clues within a couple of years, then what happened? That’s as much of a mystery as the poem itself.

        • OZ- You ask what happened and why most cant make it past the first clues?

          The reason is in part because the solution takes several leaps and bounds. There is a leap from “warm waters halt” to “put in”. Then from the “blaze” to “why” is quite a jump. Then from “why” to the “rainbow” is another leap. The solver is always trying to solve the puzzle with adjacent landmarks and features. We all want it so routine (one step after the other, nice contiguous clues). f sometimes walks but other times he leaps!

          Coming away empty handed requires the successful searcher to return to the poem, reconsider a seemingly endless number of possibilities, and redirect their efforts farther and farther away from the last way point, until they at last reach the next logical and sustainable (partial) solution. IMO

          • Sherif, that seems logical of course but ff said clues should get easier too so the biggest leap should be the first clue.

        • OZ10,
          You ask “what happened”? I think people started to collaborate more. The more they shared, the more some folks who were on track, decided somebody else’s idea made more sense. They abandoned their idea for another one . Of courae this is only my opinion.

        • Oz,

          The comments fenn has made might put some light on it.
          It basically comes down to searchers didn’t know they solved the clues. Even though the mentioned the correct two clues, the rest of their process was wrong… this may imply that only mentioning the correct two clues is not enough to proceed correctly without knowing something about clues one and/or two. ‘Others’ [imo are] searchers arrived at the same location by use of aberrations and didn’t make a connection to the first two clues.

          This is where I think stomping mode screwed things up. I’d bet everyone of those folks had one thing in mind.. to keep moving, and some with distances far away. Yet, some came within 500 feet and others within 200′ of the hide. You just can’t do that by walking away, go into a canyon, drive a rim of a canyon, boat down a river… without another clue to ‘stop’ you at a place to be at… to be as close as 500 or 200′ from the hide. Movement from the first two clues, passing the remaining 7 clues, being close to the chest, says to me the clues are very close… not a mile or miles apart.

          IMO… none understood the scale of the location… they were in full stomp mode. You may say; fenn walked less than a few miles twice in one afternoon, right? Miles!?
          Yep, I think that distance is not ‘within’ the clue, but to get to the clues location and back from the vehicle. So the scenario might be, fenn didn’t follow the clues ‘from’ the car… he walked [ lets say ] 1/4 mile or so to the clue’s location, then followed the clues [ for reasons I haven’t quite understood fully ] at the location… walked back to the car for the contents of the chest and rinse and repeat a second time… all hiking less than a few miles ‘to get to the clues’

          Folks left the poem by leaving the clue’s location. I think their scale was much too large [ and we have read many solves that cover very large areas with lots of hiking in between clues ]. I still think, we create an illusion of size by the words usages in the poem, and disregard other usages of those words and phrasing of words… we are over simplifying too quickly while reading the poem, creating a larger scale search area by possibly misunderstanding things like “take it in” “Put in below” as a need for movement etc.

          When fenn finally came out and said he ‘ followed the clues when hiding the chest ‘… I doubt he was walking miles between clues. My concern is why he would have had the need, or what’s the reason to follow his own created clues?… One thought is what I just said; a smaller location that needs some precise calculating/aligning/visual connection to go from one end to another, ‘utilizing’ the clues, and not just deciphering the clues references as places, but places within a place.

          This doesn’t mean the clues are not over a huge area… it might be that our “small destination” sees the huge area. “the location is huge but your destination is small”

          That comment doesn’t tell me the idea of ‘destination’ is the “spot” where the chest lays in wait… it implies to me the idea of our destination is small where the clues can be seen, or used, so the “blaze can be ‘found”

          Wise and found the blaze, means ‘discover.’ Discover for me means ‘knowing what it is you have found’… by using the clues in some manner of ‘following’ what they do to find the blaze. All done in a small local with very little movement… maybe even within 1000 feet from start to finish.

          What happened after the first two clues were mentioned? They left the poem.

          This post is full of it… opinions, I mean.

          • Seeker, clues one and two have been FULLY deciphered, right? AND on top of that some have been within 500 feet, irregardless if they KNEW IT or not, right?

            So if two is not enough, how many deciphered clues do we need to confidently say we definitely FOUND the location or the starting spot at least??? All clues may point to the same general area, but I don’t think we need all 9 deciphered to be confident. I say 3.

      • He had better things to do… one of them was probably writing his autobiography ………which wouldn’t be terribly marketable unless he created a market… so….

          • Tim,
            I dont see how anagrams can be part of the answer when FF has specifically stated that the “words mean exactly what they say”. Also; Im not entirely sure, but I think anagrams were included in FF’s list of things that will not help. I recall bible verses and various other things stated to be of no use in solving the poem. But, if you want to use anagrams, go for it. Im sticking with FF’s statement that “the words mean exactly what they say”.

    • Maybe it only took him about a year, the other 14 he was just laughing his @$$ off thinking how many will lose their minds trying to crack it…

    • I think Forrest Fenn spent a great deal of time making the poem as challenging as possible. Maybe that’s why he alluded to Shakespeare in TTOTC — the poem, like Shakespeare’s plays, can be interpreted in a multitude of different ways. I wouldn’t be surprised if, even after the chest is found, the poem will still be interpreted in a variety of different ways.

      • Linda, you must be right. The answers lie between Shakespeare, Poe, Einstein and other writers. Maybe that is why he said the finder would had ‘earn it’. The hard work is in the writings and that is how the lines will cross for that one person with the right understanding.

  11. phelix,

    fenn said it was the most atrocious thing he ever did and if he was sorry, he could go get the chest.
    That seem odd to me, Atrocious. Why not outrageous or something?
    He also said folks will be surprised once its found [ or something like that }
    And the idea of ‘what took me so long’… or as you said.. ‘Forrest believed he would be dead by the time it came out.’
    That’s not true… fenn did wait, he waited for 15 years to create the poem, 20 plus years to finalize it all [including the hiding of the trove] IMO, and it’s only my understanding… fenn was only going with some of the contents to commit to his final resting places, but when he survived, he add things, made a poem, created the challenge, wrote a book to present the poem and challenge… all after recovering.

    I don’t think he was waiting on anything to come-out when he decided at first to go to his place and die. So i’m not sure if your thought is on point or not…. just saying.

    Anyways, can you attempt to clear your post up a bit… so we can chat about it?

    You’ve made some projection of things, but only fortune cookies thoughts. Can ya pull it together a bit and explain some more…?
    What line are you referring to that hold the key?
    What is it about WWWH is no longer… um, Nice?
    Why won’t we find the treasure? ~ ‘ The word that is key will be no help, no treasure, you’ll find “no treasure to help you up any creek ‘
    I can’t make heads or tails out if this statement.

    # 7 was explained that he ruined the story

    • (sorry, I like to keep source information next to interesting comments).

      EEDS: What will you do to create more buzz, create more activity to keep people interested or get more people into it?

      FENN: Well you know, it’s out of my hands now really. When I hid that treasure chest, there was nobody around. And I was walking back to my car and I looked around and I started laughing. And I said out loud, Forrest Fenn did you really do that? And I started laughing. I thought it was the most atrocious thing that I’d ever done. But, in the back of my mind, I told myself that if I’m sorry tomorrow, I can go back and get the treasure chest. But the more I thought about it, I said, no I’m not going to do it. And I told myself it’s out of my hands now. I’m an interested bystander at this point. But I get between 100 and 120 emails every day from people that, most of them know where the treasure chest is. They just want me to confirm it. This one lady says, you know Mr. Fenn, I’m coming out there in my pickup truck but it’s not a very good truck anymore. If my truck breaks, will you pick me up and take me the rest of the way to the treasure?


  12. The “city ditch even runs right under some historic homes but not burried in pipes more like a water feature.. and Washington Park from my research sounds amazing even the statue of winkly blinkly and nod by Eugene fields.

  13. I really think that the treasure is in Washington Park in Denver and the 24 mile city ditch along with the 24 lines all line up and our first president is key.

      • It’s on the high planes of the Rockies and a highlighted area of the map. The planes and foothills are all a part of the Rockies.

          • Hey cut me some slack lol I’m pretty new. But Denver is highlighted on his map and wait I’m not going to give you the science. How far east and west of the divide does science say the Rockies extend and I’m not referring to the mountains alone. So consensus is it can’t even be in the foothill s?

        • William,
          It’s not highlighted on the map (tftw) nor is it in the wood and if your effort is worth the cold you will have to take a swim in Smith Lake, Lilly Pond or Grasmere lake.

          You must be joking? Riiight?

          • Semi highlighted okay but I still firmly believe that George Washington is key and I’m going to say this, ever since the chase started almost the entire seeker community has been looking for wwh as warm fishing water’s and even still to this day on this site. And notta nothing! Why are people looking for a warm creek that a tempature change occurs?? Holy smokes that’s indefinite! So in 2017 FF himself said” a fresh set of eyes and a new way of thinking might provoke a winning solve. Why did he feel like saying that? Because everyone is stuck on fishing for some warm waters and has been for years. So as you’ve said to me I explain the same to all of you that are still looking at the same old undeniable where I would have started water temperature solve. Someone help these youngones. I am positively sure that wwh has nothing to do with trout waters. Especially after FF himself said there needs to be a new way of thinking. And that’s all there is to it.

        • I”ll accept that foothills might be part of a mountain range, but plains by their very definition are not mountains or parts of ranges. At least it looks like a safe place to search. What I don’t see is a bronze box going undetected for 8+ years in a city park.

          • Sherif did you read my comment?

            Nigh meaning wash is pronounced with two syllables.

            Nie Jah

            You are only seeing it spelled NIGH because you looked it up that way…

        • William. Fresh eyes are always good and welcome. I am one that does not nor ever would think WWWH is warm waters for trout and Brown , with a capital B, is brown trout.

          No one here is 100% wrong on any thoughts or points , or 100% right all the same.

          You posted our ideas for a purpose, expect any kind of response. Just smile if you don’t like the response.

          Not everyone here is “stuck” as you say.

          Welcome to the Chase.

        • O.Kay William,
          I will send a file in a cake when you end up in jail looking for Forrest’s treasure in Washington Park.
          Looking for a box and end up in one.

          • I like cake but dislike cages so no worries. I will have to walk the park tho but rest assured I won’t never be cornered. Besides I have plumbers that do all my digging.

    • William,
      Imo, don’t think there is too much, if any sage in
      Washington Park.. I guess at one time we were all sorta where you are, but read
      as much as you can of the interviews, edicts & hints and what the real deal “sage,” searchers have weighed in with.

  14. Is it possible and everything is at this point that FF thinking like of the world and our future environment with global warming where the warm waters will halt in Earth’s near future? Say 100 or 500 to 1000 years from now. I know for a fact the Colorado River will be the first river that will turn into nothing but a creek nobody can paddle up, eventually.

    • William,
      If you’re talking environmental… I kinda agree with the premise.
      Using the CO river as a place to start at it source [ for example ] and use the idea that the poem “explains” the end is every drawing nigh, or the “river bottoms where dreams and fantasies alike go to play” Than what you have is a poem that is all about an uncertain future of “the warm waters.” {all liquid waters}
      This might mean the place you start at is the place you stay at… to be wise and found the blaze…
      This idea might be all about the watershed of the RM’s and the depiction of a single waterways. The canyon in this theory would be the Grand_Daddy of all canyons and the hoB, as well as no place for the meek. B capitalized as a title or “the Grand Canyon”.
      However, like i said, we would need to be in CO. on the CD and near the “water high”… ‘heavy loads’ would depict being in the mountains that contain the fresh water supply.
      The question would be; where? in what mountain location would be be at and how does the blaze come into the picture.

      You’re not the first to have these types of ideas { IF this was where you were going } But from what I’m reading in your post… might I suggest to think about the bigger picture, rather than as small community, idea. Fenn was thinking down the road. We may have to do the same, and much farther than most would want to.

      Just food for thought…

    • Hello Seeker. Could Mr. Fenn’s comment about “environmentalist” simply mean to be made aware of something, particularly related within the poem/search area? I’m not sure if I’ve posted my thoughts clearly, but hope you’ll understand what I mean.

  15. William, my advice is to try and figure out/ identify what the 9 clues are in the poem, what they actually meam/are and where they are. The first one FF says is WWWH- that’s 1 of the 3 steps for one of the 9 clues as I just said.

    Just my opinion.

  16. This man is a genuine genius. I mean his words are enormous in the scope of the chase! If I was to think new Mexico I would start at the fight for water on the reservation where the people are having to bucket and truck water to a community and personal homes because there’s been a fight to get water pipes in a certain community. And they all have to this day rain buckets and water high on tripods above roof lines. I’ve seen the families working together in Peru doing what they still do today in the north and south west new Mexico. Fortunately they just started extending the treated water a little bit closer to these people that are United State citizens yet live on reservation. Anyways!?

  17. That’s a good start ,William. Now find that on a map and see where that halts. Then take that good will or smoochie gesture halt and take it In the canyon down you figured out next. Keep going not far ,but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown. Lol.

  18. It seems like Forrest and H.D. Thoreau have many ideals in common. To wit, these lines from “Walden” by Thoreau:

    “I learned this, at least, by my experiment: that if one advances confidently in the direction of his dreams, and endeavors to live the life which he has imagined, he will meet with a success unexpected in common hours…. If you have built castles in the air, your work need not be lost; that is where they should be. Now put the foundations under them.”

    I have no idea how it could possibly be of use. It is easy however, to see how it could be of interest.

    • Common hours must be the day and castle’s in the sky has got to be the dream and final destination. So to day dream and use our imagination must lead to a concrete satisfaction of one success when one satisfies ones imagination from dreams to reality.

      • So let’s all imagine were just a small fish in a big pond like FF did in his thumb. So WWH is essentially where we congregate.the warm waters halt us so we turn around and go back down? And wind up where we first started and know the place for the first time. No that’s at the end of our exploring. So we go back to our beginning or home. And from here it’s no place for the meek. This if I were a fish would be in an open shallow. Okay wait I need to re- think all this! I got lost in my own creek or transit lation

    • Where do the grayish white “grizzlies’ go to fatten up on the confused fish? Something to do with wood.. just a far reach. You know more than me by far, is there such a place?

    • Thoreau. Have you ever looked at the list of his influencers? Now that is a guest list for a year long dinner party in the remote wilderness that I’d pay any personal price to attend.

      It seems the very essence.

    • I would think Architecture, I’ll skip right to the essence of an idea, what do you need to make and pour concrete… and not just the ingredients.

    • Without consulting *google* there are two Thoreau quotes that come to mind…
      “It’s not what you look at that matters, it’s what you see.”
      “Let every sheep keep its own skin.”
      Environmentalist also comes to mind.

      • The one that always stays in the forefront of my mind is:

        “..in wildness is the preservation of the world.”

  19. To live the impossible dream…….Solve Forrest Fenn’s Poem, and find the Treasure Chest. Lol.

  20. Does it bother anyone that Einstein is credited with saying “imagination encircles the world” ? Great circles encircle the world as well.

    This could alter the approach to WWWH. Just a random thought for tonight.

    • If you mean in the context of route-mapping, Sean, I can’t see how Great Circle navigation would have anything to do with mapping the chase (with or without the Einstein fuzzy).

      Can you elaborate how it could possibly affect an approach to WWWH?

      Or do you mean ‘great circles’ in some other context?


      • Jake,
        I can’t elaborate, haven’t thought it through yet at all. Currently this falls in the category of “dear God, how would THIS fit in?”

        I was just wondering if anyone else had wondered the same thing.

    • I am reminded of the DJ Einstein had hired prior to discovering his famous equation.

      Otherwise, interesting thoughts s Sean.

  21. Everyone already knows this I’m sure but posting just in case it helps anyone.
    What is the lee side of a mountain?
    (Because prevailing winds in the mid-latitudes blow from the west, the lee side can generally be thought of as the eastern side of the mountain range. This is true most times — but not always.) In contrast to the windward side of a mountain which is moist, the leeward side typically has a dry, warm climate.

    • That hits a lot of points William, including a possible fit to why Indulgence is wet. Would also be cool if that somehow was included in the answer to WWWH.

      • Yes it would be cool.. I hope someone finds the answers to the poem. What would your opinion be on the ” take the canyon down” being about a period of time? Not in travel distance time but like a greater period of time. Just wondering.

        • Not the easiest for me to give an answer as my thoughts are still coalescing on that topic. However I do like the idea when combined with the idea of the poem being a canon with two voices. One voice in the present the other in the past with the canyon acting as a bridge in time or a path taken in the past.

    • A rain shadow, William? I suppose it’s (a small) part of the reason the Continental Divide is frequently investigated as a possible WWWH.

      However, here in the chase states there’s plenty of “wet” (skiing and fishing, f’r’ex) east (leeward) of the Divide, plenty of watersheds that drain to the Mississippi in the east. So locally the effect is nowhere near as pronounced as it is in parts of California, Nevada, Oregon, and Washington – and those places are well off the playing field.


  22. My humble advice:

    First off, remember that it is a POEM so the first thing you should do is spend time learning how to decipher poems.

    Any poetry worth its weight has TWO interpretations: the literal and the figurative. Or, the chase and the KILL.

    In Forrest’s poem, the figurative version leads you on a chase. The literal is the kill, the real treasure, and involves no chase….because it is IN the poem.

    You all follow the figurative and thus have and never will find anything. The literal takes you “straight to the treasure.”

    In the literal version, all the clues are leading and pointing to a single LINE in the poem. That line then points to a single word, the word that is key.

    And boy it is ever.

    The figurative version will bring many thrills but no kill. And the kill, sadly, has no thrill.

    That is a nice way of saying that neither one of them leads to a bronze chest filled with riches.

    • Phelix, so what is your point? You feel like you got a rigamortus rooster in your can or something?

    • Within my understanding of poetry ,there has never been a standard set of limits for amounts of meanings a poem can represent. A poem writer has their intended meaning(s) and anyone reading for themselves has theirs. Thus, there is many interpretations/doorways as many as there are possibilites and ideas.

      I figure , with my own perception, that this poem has 3 variables of meanings to interpret. Looking at this from a case study perspective of FF and his writing style. I see 3 stories in one poem-all connected and contiguous. You can tell the stories of 3 peoples as one person in the first person otherwise walking and talking in the shoes of all three is just too far to walk or write. This is the beauty of telling or writing stories through poetry.

      I believe there are 3 lives walked in this poem, as I see it. The words chosen and interpretations are of the first person- the writer. The geographic location , not the chests exact spot, but involves all 3 persons in the poem- again, written in 1st person.

      For myself, this is the important possibility. Sound to complex? Too complex for a kid or specialized knowledge? Hah, just 3 riddles.

      The above is just what I think and work with. IMO.

      • Al, I have found when looking into clue words, I often find 3 things that one clue fits into the situation and can coexist. I can not say that is true of all the words I have reviewed, but diffidently several. It also seems clear that there is a point in the Poem you must be there to recognize or confirm the correct clue to be sorted out by what you see or don’t see, or trial and error. No final solve, but next year, I will go to the start and try to follow the stepping stones in several different manners to the solve or at least eliminate some of the possibilities.

  23. In the literal sense, where is YOUR “canyon down”?

    “take it in the can-yon down”

    “Canyon” is the only two syllable word in the line, and the BOLD or stressed syllable is “can”.

    Your “can-yon down” is your buttcrack (it is down there afterall) and you’re supposed to take it IN there.

    “Take it in the can” – that’s the literal translation and what most of you have been doing for years.

    The figurative clues in the poem describe a specific location, a national “treasure”.

    The literal clues lead you to a BOLD, nasty and taunting confession by the poem’s author. They lead to the word that is key, the one word that unlocks his secret.

      • I think he meant “go cut me a hickory switch, boy.”

        But ff said “Would I find myself switching back . . . I think I can say ‘no’ to that without giving away too much of the clues.”

        So I think our butts are covered.

    • Ummm, well phelix you certainly have an interesting perspective. Perhaps it would be better expressed on a different forum/blog? Some folks are only here for a short time and are not much missed when they depart.

      Did you perchance neglect to read the “Rules”??

      Well, at any rate…..Good Luck to Ya!!!

    • Actually, this is making a lot of sense phelix. I still don’t get what you mean with ‘the kill’ though.

          • In my opinion this is how I see it.

            Look at.the girl at the far right. Her hand is in a similar position but she is wearing a dress so her hand is obviously not down any britches. The boy in questions hand appears to be visible as it is similar to the previous girls hand angle and clearly isn’t the car or the rope. I suppose he could have a tail though. Now look at the girl at the far left. This is likely similar to th e boy but he is rotated. Plus the rope goes down to the hand at his backside then comes out at his hand on the front. There is nothing inappropriate here. Plus, in what universe would anyone ask an artist to draw them something inappropriate?

    • which is totally weird because the guy by the dog looks like he is doing the Saturday Night Fever move by John Travolta, and the movie opens with, wait for it…. “Stayin’ Alive”

      • Thanks Seph,

        We could rename it “Schrodinger’s Dog” so the debate could be “Stayin’ Alive”.

        Definitely interesting…Forrest is a wily one when it comes to this topic.

    • Hi Seph — when Toby and Shelley put up their video showing the old Gilbert Gaul painting, it was easy to see why Forrest would have had trouble unloading it (pun intended). Still, Forrest’s repeated descriptions of the painting certainly don’t jive with what’s actually in it. Neither the dog nor the man is on the bridge, and there is no smoking gun.

      • Hello zaphod. A part of me wonders if it was what Mr. Fenn thought he remembered of this painting, or if there’s something more. Smoking gun is an interesting idiom. Also, if the gun is smoking, it was just “shot”. Mr. Fenn’s car, “The Bullet” comes to mind.

      • So, applying Forrest’s mis-remembering to the poem. The chest isn’t actually where he said, and there is no blaze. The certainly complicates things. 😉
        (not serious)
        I could easily have gotten things much more mis-remembered in the time between when since he last saw it and when he recalled it.

      • Hi PDenver — hard to say. The painting is certainly hard enough to look at, and by 2006 who knows how many years had passed since he traded it for the two French watercolors (one of which he describes, and is equally hard to track down). Still, Forrest’s memory seems to be awfully good: he remembers people’s names, prices he paid and sold items for, places, dates, and other minutiae that most people would never retain for a week, let alone decades. So the potential for a hint/clue hiding in here probably shouldn’t be casually dismissed.

          • Zaphod, I don’t recall the particular scrapbook offhand, but one of the scrapbooks that I speak of is when he was having fun about his memory and not remembering Mrs. Fenn’s first name correctly.

          • PD,
            That was from Forrest gets mail, I believe. A searcher claimed this was all a medical experiment. LOL fenn couldn’t remember where he left a note to himself where the chest was hidden and would need to ask his wife Phillis…

      • Should we be more skeptical about things Forrest says?
        If so, where should we “draw the line” about what to believe if
        it comes from him? He mentioned his tendency to embellish.
        But if memory serves, he also said that he doesn’t “embellish” about this treasure hunt. It doesn’t appear to me that anything about Gilbert Gaul or his painting(s) relates to the hunt in any way, so perhaps we can ignore all any and all Gilbert Gaul
        things — at least during those times when we are focusing on the hunt. I welcome your comments about any of this. As always, IMO.

        • Not sure where these saying cone from but I like them: Never let the truth interfere with a good story and lesson; if you want 100% truth, don’t listen to or read stories.

        • Hi TF, The watercolor he traded the painting for, Fairies dancing around a rock, Is likely a scene, from a mid summers night dream. In the play there’s a line about “haunting a wood”, which could relate to the line in the poem, “brave and in the wood”. Just a thought.

          • Hi Idle: if it wasn’t clear, what I meant by “colophonic” was that the rock the faeries are dancing around looks like a giant omega.

          • I did get that but my mind wandered to a previous conversation on the blog about rock windows (or sun hole, hole in rock). I definitely have not seen anything like that painting while on BOTG (referring to the omega rock, not the nude people).

          • I.D.: 10-4 — just wanted to confirm. Yes, the only time I’ve ever seen something like that rock window was in Arches N.P. (minus the naked prancing!) Since there is precedent for a mismatch between Forrest’s description of a painting (The Dead Dog) and how it actually appears, I have to wonder if French vs. English and watercolor vs. oil might have been deliberate misdirection. Or … maybe there is still a French watercolor out there that we haven’t tracked down. Given the chapter title, and the obvious connection between the Gaul black & white and “Hush Puppies,” maybe there is a blue jean connection to the mystery French watercolor.

      • Hi Zap, Maybe the watercolor he traded the Gilbert Gaul, painting for, is what he wanted to draw attention to. He’s a Shakespeare fan.

        • James!
          It was the way you worded your comment about the watercolor FF traded the oil painting that was significant. Maybe it was the WATER COLOR as in ‘the color of the water’ being significant!

          • To add to that thought, James. I havent seen the painting of the dead dog, but would assume that if he is bleeding on a bridge, the blood might drip into the water. So, is the hint about red water or IF there is a hint, is it suggesting that the color “changed” like the light that Eric Sloan died waiting for. Did the light change when FF bought the watercolor? Of course Im talking symbolistically. Is that a word? Well, it is now if it wasnt before.

    • Thank you for the link, Seph. It’s good to see what Gilbert Gaul’s “The Dead Dog” painting looked like.

      • Maybe he is teaching us how far our imaginations need to be adjusted to be able to solve the chase.

          • You are wise pdenver 🙂

            That is the crux of my thought though. Without the painting we only have our imagination’s rendering of the painting. Now we have both versions and according to Forrest one is more important than the other.

          • I worded that slightly off as it is my opinion and definitely my opinion that Forrest’s message, “Imagination is more important than knowlege” applies here. Sorry for the loose wording.

          • What you’ve posted makes sense to me. I’ve envisioned this painting looking a little different than the original.

          • I actually always just pictured the dogs playing poker painting but one dog at the table got caught cheating so another dog shot them (wild west style) and the gun is still smoking.

      • PDenver…I am under the impression that Forrest isnt a big fan of Georgia O’keeffe’s art but I am. This is one whose theme resonates with the chase, IMO. Supposedly, Juan Hamilton spread her ashes on Pedernal. But I wonder about that sometimes. The summit requires a couple of 3rd class moves…not for the meek or faint of heart.

        • Hello Sandy. I remember reading the story he told about Georgia O’Keeffe and how he wasn’t a big fan of her art, although I don’t recall where I read it. I think over at Jenny’s but not sure. While reading about her, I remembered a couple stories he’s told and hints about losing sight. Stay focused.

        • You can hike to the top of Pedernal. I don’t recall it being that difficult. A bit if chimneying at one point. There’s some beautiful colors of chert up there.

      • Does anyone else see the resemblance between the “Mexican Peasant” (as Toby called him, hope that wont offend) in the bottom right corner and a very similar looking gentleman in the TFTW story about finding Spanish armor and other Spanish artifacts up near Meteetsee? Sorry I am without my book at the moment for correct page #.

  24. Don’t let defeat this time around keep you from pursuing the victory right around the corner.

    • I apparently missed a few post today. Definitely fitting for an inspirational poster. Which makes you also an inspirational poster.

      If we only knew which corner.

      • Oh yeah I know about that from the book. I thought everyone was talking about a different painting. Is there a connection to that painting I don’t know about?

          • Yep. But don’t know if I would find a kid that if I showed em the poem would come up with that in imagination. I also kicked that around when I read the book and then abandon that rabbit hole.

          • I think keeping different pieces of the chapters in the back of one’s mind might help in the long run. Is there any relation to the stories he’d told in the book to what is on the map and poem? This is the thrill of the Chase.

  25. In an effort to NOT change the subject, but to contribute to the chase; I off this discovery of information regarding the area near the NW corner of Wyoming:
    (I found it very relevant to FF’s area of potential Hidey Spots, as it were!)

    The “Terminal Monument” is the corner post set by A.V. Richards in 1874 at the northwest corner of the state of Wyoming. This corner had been searched for in previous years without recovery until removed by USGS topographer Raymond E. Hill in 1958. Throughout that summer Hill worked from the south, recovering several of Richards [old] boundary monuments on the state line between Wyoming, Idaho, and Montana. He became so familiar with Richards work that he was able to recognize the work of his axmen in an area that had since been both burned over and logged.

    According to Hill:
    When Mr. Richards reached this terminal monument it was late in the fall, snow was imminent, and he had a large crew, equipment and horses to move nearly 200 miles southwest. Because of the time, he left unessential items and among those were 2 Stadia rods that he had designed and described in his survey notes. I recovered both these in remarkably good condition and they are at my desk as I write this. Terminal Monument Creek was named accordingly. It was the creek I followed on foot to recover the monument, and it heads very near the monument location.

  26. The only thing I found about wwwh in the totc was #1 where Cody the Buffalo pulled the car in the creek.# 2 where him and Donny had to turn around cause the canyon got so narrow only water could pass through it. #3 where he would stand on main Street and watch the cars bouncing by splashing people from all the potholes. #4 boiling pine needles for coffee will bring on Sudden cardiac arrest. But I’m betting wwh isn’t talked about in the book about the form of water. And only using imagination will that come to light out of the book. I was thinking earlier today that I should read the book again and this time get deep in my emotions and just put my heart soul and mind deep into every chapter like I’m in his shoes and just flow with it instead of looking for clues or worried I’m missing something and thinking too hard… I think I will try it like that and see. I might even try to trick my brain into a state of mind when I was a young kid. I’ll try! It Saturday evening and if I find anything I’ll post..

    • William,
      The “hints” I believe I have identified in TTOTC, are very subtle. I dont think they even suggest WWWH. I think the hints suggest a way of thinking. IMO

    • Thank you for the link, Dal. It was quite informative. Over the years, my family and I have seen some of the changes.

      • On Mother’s day I took my Mom to see Morning Glory. When she was young it was still a vibrant rainbow pool but now it is a faded glory.

        • It has changed over the years. While there in July, it was the first I’ve ever seen the Yellowstone River spill over its banks. The wildfires have increased, but luckily we didn’t see any this year. The Summer temperatures have definitely risen and some of the thermal areas have changed. Mammoth Springs is one of them. I remember the entire side was a brilliant white, but now there’s gray to it.

    • Good article, really like the design. Yellowstone is an amazing place. One can only hope that the outlook is not as bleak as presented here.

        • LINDA,
          yep, just as The seas come in and the seas go out. Boocoo
          times in the past. Don’t be sad, increase in alpine glaciation, can portend, serial continental ice.

          • Your sentence doesn’t make a lot of sense to me, Batty, though I’m sure it makes sense to you. Eithet way, it is inappropriate and a little bit sexist of you to tell me how I should feel.

          • I apologize for my above remark. That’s just how I took it, though that may not be how it was intended.

    • AAdvarbark,

      Politically motivated comment or based on other information that article might be misleading?

      I mean, just by simple factors involved, YS sit on top of a magma chamber 50 miles long and 12 miles wide [estimated]. Over due for a predicted eruption and some lake shores have moved because of uplift of the land in some areas of the park… noted when land surveying was being done years back. I couple degrees increase seems about right, in my mind, with that amount of energy below the surface. That, and we have only truly studied the area for approx 100 years with advance technology.

      The rate of temp and affects could just be only a hiccup, or a warning sign… either way… is there some logical reason for your post, or only that you seemingly don’t not like the NYT?

      In any case… when YS pops its cork, one thing is for certain, its gonna be a bad hair day…

  27. We have a number of California, and west coast searchers. Just wondering if there any interest in a mini So Cal Fennboree? A CaliFenboree. Was thinking just after the new year would be a good time. I’m sure Zap, or other So Cal searcher could give us some recommendations of a good brewery to meet at in the LA area.

  28. JDA. I would say that the first stanza is a prelude also. It’s the prelude of the story that is the finale- his last act. It describes his ending action ,at the place. “As I have gone alone IN there”. Then the clues to get to this place of where ‘IN There’ ,starts at begin it . IMO. That’s just how a read it. It reads : this is the end, and then the path begins here at Begin it. He went alone IN somewhere ; not a cave, not a mine etc etc. Though, IN somewheres. Whence he is in there ,he can keep his secret of this where he and his chest is. In the chest contains treasures of hints of riches new and old. Not clues of history , but hints of/by the artifacts in the chest. What is the story of the items in the chest? They are hints as said because we will probably not ever know the true story about the artifacts history. He put his autobiography ( his story) in the chest. The value of anything is different depending on the value at of the “times”. Is his autobiography value greater now or in the future? After the chest is found? Or now, because it may just help find the chest? He buried his autobiography in many places, maybe look for one?

    He says (paraphrasing) an 80year old man is not going to go down a canyon. But his poem says, “and take it in the canyon down”. So, how does this translate in ones thinking? Is take it in the canyon down ,as an imagination?

    Ah, poetry!

    IMO .

    • Alsetenash;

      The quote is: And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know.” f

      and “Take it in the canyon down…” Maybe one is driven (canyon down line in poem) and the other, Forrest is saying that the final walk is NOT into a deep canyon – walked twice. – in and out. I see no conflict. Even if the one in the poem is hiked or walked, Forrest is saying that the final one is NOT hiked or walked, because an 80 year old man would not do that (twice). Therefore, again, I see no conflict – JMO – JDA

      • Thanks for the quote ,JDA. Though I wasn’t insinuating a conflict by the quote, by any means. I am pointing out what is in the poem and the ATF comment he made about canyon down. I do this with his many comments that relate to the poem writ.

        And take it in the canyon down.

        “And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again”

        I think this a great example to focus analysis on. It’s not conflicting nor contrarian,in my opinion . But rather, a nice little something he is giving;that is some assistance on his methods to understanding his poetic nature.

        Sure, he could mean what you say as to that he drives in a canyon and then arrives at the final location/clues and maybe the final location is not in a canyon. He has said he parked his car and walked twice from his car..

        We are to begin at WWWH and take it in the canyon down. Not far but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown. But, he says he ( an 80 year old man) is not going to go up and down a canyon. Simple: he just drives?

        My point is: he is not thinking/talking about the methods of travel, neither is this hinted at in the poem.

        The poem is traveled written by visual imagination.
        To walk the entire poem from A to Zee spot, is too far to walk.

        IMO. That’s what I see is key. Of course one can drive the clues to the end ,or close to it.

        IMO .

        • Alsetenash;

          I totally agree with your final observations:
          To walk the entire poem from A to Zee spot, is too far to walk. – I agree

          Of course one can drive the clues to the end ,or close to it.
          I agree.

          Have a good day sir – JDA

        • Alsetenash,

          Poem- Not far, but too far to walk

          ATF- If you are walking long distances looking for the treasure, you are walking too far.

          Like you said:
          I think this a great example to focus analysis on. It’s not conflicting nor contrarian, in my opinion . But rather, a nice little something he is giving; that is some assistance on his methods to understanding his poetic nature.

          It’s the usage of the comma that splits what you have “to walk”.

          Not “far”, so we can disregard having “to walk” far. But, it is TOO FAR “to walk”. So how far is “too far”? The ATF tells us, it is a “long distance”.

          Most everyone settles on “it’s too far to walk”, that’s not what f is saying. He says that it’s “too far” to walk, and that means, “long distances.”

          He has also said he followed all the clues, no other way. Along with go down a canyon, back up, then down, and two trips done in one afternoon, we are left with only one scenario. He parked at the first clue, made two separate trips, was 79/80 meaning the last trip was on his B-day, Aug. 22, 2010, done in the one “trip” (the last one) in the afternoon. He says don’t go where an 80 year old man couldn’t go because he was 80 the last time he went.
          Why would he not answer the question of using alternate modes of transportation? You say: To walk the entire poem from A to Zee spot, is too far to walk. True, but is what we need to do. The poem says it, his ATF supports it. You also say: IMO. That’s what I see is key. Of course one can drive the clues to the end ,or close to it. Not really, how would searchers arrive at the first two clues and then walk right by the next 7, when they are driving? The thing is, IMO, you cannot drive close to the treasure spot. It’s most likely out in the boonies. He wouldn’t hide the thing close to civilization because of the fact of being stumbled upon, and most places out in the mountains and forests in the boonies don’t allow motorized vehicles. Sorry, but I disagree with you and JDA. It’s not what f is saying or implying, poem and ATF.
          If both of you could answer one question, using f’s words and not your assumptions, we know we have “to walk”, so how far is it that we have “to walk”? My answer is: “long distances”. If you can find anywhere where f tells us, besides the example I am using, I’m all ears. But on the flip side, realize, that he does say, long distances. Doesn’t get any clearer than that…

    • Alsternash… you brought me back to an old idea with: “IN THE CHEAST contains treasures of hints of riches new and old. Not clues of history , but hints OF/BY the artifacts IN the chest.”
      If I understand your post correctly, your comment affirms that the ‘hints’ are OF/BY the contents within the box, …. and therefore not available until the box is found. Unless the hints are available to the searcher… in the contents description given in TTOTC. ?? Thanks, OS2

      • Consider this quote: In a question and answer interview, this exchange occurred:
        “Are there any objects placed in the Bronze Chest that are connected, or have meaning to the place the chest is hidden? ~ Mike
        “No Mike, everything in the chest is straight forward and visual, except my autobiography, which some might find dull. Oops, I forgot, there is one thing in the chest that I have not talked about except to say I don’t want to talk about it. It is something saved especially for the person who solves the clues. I think that person will be pleased when she sees it.” f JDA

        • JDA, if that was addressed to me, my Q. still stands The objects in the chest may not be connected to the hidey space… something about them could be a hint to it…. ex: the Columbian jaguar claw has no connection to YSNP… but there might be a rock that looks like a crouching panther, a vent hisses like a cat, a yellow cliff with 3 distinct claw lines. The necklace may be a reference to a grand loop. I dunno… just something. Even the count of the gems might be a hint…. within the box and within TTOTC.

          • OS2;

            All I can do is post Forrest’s quotes – I can not tell you how to read or interpret what is there. For me, he answered the question – no connection – JDA

          • OS,

            Some think the object is a coin. A coin related to the L&C story. It’s a bit of a stretch seeing fenn basically said; NO. However, were told there are hints in the book… and basically the one story that talks about “exploring” is that story. An item “save”… That person [ Sacagawea ] will be pleased… line of thinking, the person the coin was created about.

            Did fenn give a hint, or just having fun? You choose.
            So, the conclusion could go both ways, but either way, Mike was brilliant with his question, don’t ya think?!

      • OS2. Yes, I am referring to the hints of riches new and old as is in the chest. I remember we had this discussion before. The first stanza is about him ( As I) and the with (my) treasures (bold) in the chest . He( I can) keep his (my) secret of where he has placed the chest . A chest full of hints of the treasures of the past(old) that are also treasures of today(new).

        All the stanzas are elements of the poem. To accentuate I’ll say again- Of the poem. A quick self Q&A: Is there hints of riches new and old in the poem? I say No. so, I say he meant the chest. Knowing FF’s background as an archeologist helps infuse this idea.

        MW Q&A:

        If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest? Thank you ~Nope
        “Thank you Nope. Nope .f”

        So , some backstory is required- this being Archeologist. It’s the treasures new and old- the artifacts are the hints.

        In the end “Title” is of the gold.

        He is basically saying in the first stanza, do some researching of his backstory . It is the backstory you should research about this poem;of his creation of the poem and it being a map for a/his treasure hunt- a chest full of treasures of yesterday that are valued also today and future today’s. Next, is the map parts.

        The first stanza is saying to do research about the creation of the poem and the Crestor of it.

        The “Saved especially for the Solver of the clues” . Is an singular individual point not flowing to the next point of , “That person will be pleased when she sees it”. Is a different point , independent of the sentence before. Many will disagree with me but I can understands why.

        I don’t see any hints of riches new in old in the poem. The poem is about the poem and what is in the chest- Treasures new and old.

        This is just my opinion.

        • WhatIF the poem is narrated?

          “i” and “alone” both refer to “the first”. Should “I” reflect the idea of “the first” to come to the now N. Americas with their treasures [ possession to them {new} and Old to us {artifacts} ] in a bold move through the Ice-free corridor, into the now named Glacier National park, below the HOB…
          No place for the meek relates to the USA and “where” they entered ~ the CD ~ the back bone of the RM’s in now MT. The end might refer to all Glaciers in the park area will be gone soon at the rate they are melting, not unlike their bigger brothers… No paddle up these creeks ? your creeks in your homeland { icerivers } just heavy loads {2 plus mile tall ices sheets} and water high… WWWH. Only seen to day and tomorrows slightly different… from the past… new and old.

          So why does “I” have to mean “about him” {fenn}?
          I mean fenn later says in his poem; “So why is it “I” must go and leave my “trove” for all to seek?” Why not treasures-?- his treasures. And why does he call it a “chest” at the time of discovery by a seeker?

          Why is he telling use he’s going ‘again’ when supposedly he has gone already with his trove / treasures / chest…?
          Is Hints if “Riches” about knowledge of who we are and where we came from? Are the contents of the chest just symbolic to old and new-?- coins from the near times, going back to artifacts of long ago? Is old and new of, the old world to the new world and humans travel?… and our progress and cultures?

          The three words [ treasure , trove, chest ] are closely related, yet altogether different. As well as “I” having more than a common usage or commonly used. Are we to be in “tight focus” of a words “I” {eye} ~ Knowledge of self.

          LOL it’s a great theory, until you add in fenn; “following the clues when he hid the treasure”
          But the point is… can the poem be narrated, at first… because it seems strange to tell all you have gone alone, and then ask “why is it I must go?”
          They can’t be two different times… right?
          That alone is a riddle to me… what is tired and weak?

          • I’m not sure that Fenn expected or wanted anybody to get that analytical/philosophical about the poem. I’m more interested in just following the clues to the hidey space and
            reaping the benefit of finding the chest and its
            contents — not that I don’t also have an interest in “the great outdoors” (as well as protecting and preserving it). And I really, really hope that a person with a great solve of the poem goes to the place that the clues point to . . . and doesn’t get shafted by fraud. As always, in my opinion.

          • Seeker.

            Narrated? Sure, I does sound like it.

            This is a poem, so it is poetry. Never lose focus on that fact. A poem that requires some backstory research of the creator of it. He gave some instruction tools for this research.

            The very first words are “As I” .”As I” is saying/speaking as past tense. Every word after these in this stanza is his manifested idea.

            Now it’s the start of the physical clues, “Begin it”

            The research that can be done about the author/creator may help understand his words formula for usage of the poem that is a map.

            Stanza 5:

            The emotional intellect ( poetry is a great way of expressing this) is being reflected here- a self reflection of reasoning for doing this idea he created. Like he has written about how he thought about what his dad would think about him doing this. Or other people/family would think. He’s asking himself this about himself as to why he is doing this. He decides for himself, by himself as to his why.

            I dunno, but when I am 80 and older , I can imagine I will be mentally reflecting a lot of what I have done in my life and why I have done them. I am sure I would experience old emotions again too. After our last breath we only take what we have done, not what we have accumulated.

            “I wanted to create some intrigue and adventure and maybe a little mystery…anyone who dies with over $50 is a failure… ” f

            What we strive for ? what drives us?motivates us? all these years is resulting in what? Both positive and negative things will come up. What is a successful life ? We will all reflect on this when we get very old. This stanza is written poetically about this reflection.

            Stanza 6

            The good, tha bad and the ugly of life is worth living through all of it.

            He’s giving everyone what he has had- The Thrill of The Chase!
            It’s Hope!

            Stanzas 1,5,6 are a narration , it looks and sounds like it to me.

            It may be boring what I say here but it is simply what I see and very simple. Figure out the clues , marry them to a map then try and find the darn thing.

            Why are you searching for this chest and trying to solve this poem? Be honest with yourself as to why?

            For me ,it’s because I believe in myself that I can do it- it gives me hope!

            The Ego lives to complicate things.

            It’s all poetry.

            Just my opinions.

            “I wanted to create some intrigue and adventure and maybe a little mystery…anyone who dies with over $50 is a failure…” f

          • Also , Seeker. All your postulations in your response are a lot to think of in translating this poem. Can you really see all that in the poem? Wow! I cannot relate to what you say. My ideas and interpretations have changed over time. I have been way more simple in my solve.

            IMO .

          • If in the end we find out that “I” in the poem is FF then I will be very surprised. Should we be looking into the I’s that go alone in the poem instead of an I going alone somewhere in nature?

          • I really like the “anyone who dies with over $50 is a failure” quote. Perhaps he left an IOU saying that the finder gets all of FF’s money except for $50. 🙂

          • Maybe not all his money lol. I conjoin the more than $50 comment with him saying he’ll know when the chest is found. I put them together to mean the tittle to his house. Kept in a Trust untill found.

            Just a momentary speculation.

        • Old riches=the earth billions of years New riches = bronze box and contents hundreds of years imo

          • I think FF is simply alluding to his age when he did this imo / I’m in the box and thinking like I’m 13 I ain’t hardly cookin nothin which is wise imo

          • I believe old is more likely things he found (like arrowheads at the end spot) and the memories of that time. My opinion but I also like your idea Hank.

          • We all know that FF has stressed the fact of his age when hiding many times so I think he might’ve added that to the Poem. Obviously his verbal statements are now embedded in this forever but years from now he might want a knew searcher to know maybe someone out of touch on the fringe like me

          • The two word s that meet at the middle of the poem (the end of the 3rd stanza and start of the 4th) is words 79 and 80.

          • Hank,
            You are right that FF frequently refers to his own age in his TTOTC stories. He also has said in regard to the TC, no matter what happens now, it is for the ages. (Not exact quote). I think this is a hint that we are looking for a period in time. Actually, I think we are looking for a missing period in time. An unconformity is a geologic formation in which the layers of rock from older time periods are pushed upward by earth’s forces. I think we are seeking an unconformity which includes a missing period of time that was somehow not preserved. Like a book that was never written. IMO.

            I also think that we are looking for a natural process that has been repeated over and over throughout the ages. Tired can mean repetitive. IMO, “Ive done it tired” is refering to a repeated process.

          • Hello Idle Dreamer. The 79th and 80th letter is a cute find; “high, if”…”Hi, f,” or “Hi. f”.

          • Reading this, I just noticed that “If you’ve been wise” could also be read as, “If few’ve been wise.” Offhand, I don’t see how that helps but maybe it’s of use to someone.

          • According to one article you have to live until 2050 to be able to live forever. So if Forrest can make it to age 120 he could, theoretically make it to 160 and beyond. I of course believe that extending human life is a lot closer. That all is speculation but my opinion is the key to immortality is actually easier than the poem. Will Forrest live to be 160, I would say possibly.

        • Are trees not also “new and old”? He wouldn’t want anything but to be under a tree in his final days, paraphrasing. His name, forrest, his stories of growing up, outside and trees. His treasures in the chest, to some, may not actually be classified as “old”. Depending on the time/era, a 5000 year old coin is not old, but trees, now that can have new and old. Riches new and old in the poem has to do with “trees”. The “hint” is to put an “h” in the “t” of tree, the forth line just says “And three.” Look at the line before this, what is his secret? He says it in the book, his secret plan, to bury bells. What could the word “secret” come to be? What is “sec”? Section, secret, “seconds”?

          The “x” the poem has to offer is a path, to a buried bell. That’s where the coordinates of the poem take you, this is why the only clue that you need to solve is the last. The last clue is going off trail, into the dense forest, to the spot where the treasure is, in a place surrounded by new and old. All, IMO, but since there are no answers to wwh, Brown, hoB, or the blaze, f’s words, then looks like the path to be taken, a long distance from where you parked your car, IMO.

  29. Ok so I found a place WWWH in a sense but 2 things about the next lines, “take it in the canyon down” the name of the canyon is insinuating the canyon is sad depressed and blue.behond that the or my “home of brown” is associated with copper. The question is what is the likelihood that Brown is capitalized if the clue is pointing towards a copper?

    • The copper reminds me of 2 things. The reddish brown stripe on the back of his britches and the bell clinkers. Copper is a reddish brown color that resembles the metal copper. The first recorded use of copper as a color name in English was in 1594. Wikipedia

  30. This is not the copper home of brown I was referring to earlier in a previous post but speaking of it the environment like we have been this is a must-read!! I was researching about copper and came across this. In fact this could possibly be heavy loads and water high in the end is ever drawing nigh no paddle up the creek because they’re all dead!!! https://www.washingtonpost.com/news/morning-mix/wp/2016/12/07/montana-snow-geese-searching-for-pond-land-in-toxic-mine-pit-thousands-die/?noredirect=on&utm_term=.176f46619baa

  31. Wow… I’m really struggling to care enough to keep up with the posts here. That’s sort of telling me my interest is waning and that after my already planned search next summer, I might just be done with this.

    Time will tell, I suppose.

    • FMC… what do the posts here have to do with your desire to keep going? Just interested in the correlation…

      • I think I know what FMC is saying. I used to spend a lot of time on the blog, reading and sometimes sharing. Now, if a post goes past a paragraph or so I have a tendency to scroll to the next post.
        Maybe it’s because of burn out. I find myself entering then exiting kind of quickly. Losing interest in the blog could be a side effect of losing interest in the Chase itself. Eyedot.

    • There’s exploration of new places and enjoyment of the wilderness. To wit: f’s goal in creating the Chase.

      Then there’s the abundance of insipid unproductive blather on various web sites claiming to somehow be related to f’s goal. Plus, numerous hours of the most mindless videos on youtube by sad pathetic folk who seek nothing other than to validate their importance and profit from what f has done.

      No one on any website has or will ever post that magical tidbit that will help another find the TC. Waning interest in posts here is completely understandable. Rational. But don’t lose interest in seeking pleasure in the wilderness.

      • I guess if I am ever in my late eighties, I won’t want to
        spend time explaining that something is only “in my
        opinion”. So far, I’ve generally and privately been pretty
        [ well ] behaved . . . to a point.

        Not yet eighty-something years old, I am patient and relaxed enough to admit that this entire posting is part of my opinion.

        I think this hunt will have an odd end.

  32. Fundamental design,
    I brought this to the odds n end, because it deals more with reading the poem than it does with the blaze part
    You stated~ ‘Seeker, do you it would have been simpler or harder for f to architect the clues as your example describes than a linear approach of traveling from the first clue to the next one and so on?
    Much easier, a lot more difficult, 10 or 100 times easier or thousands of times more difficult to design and then come up with the correct solution?
    How do you gauge it?’

    I think he designed the poem to have the reader think of simplistic rather than us logic and analyze the possibilities. We, the readers see it as we hope it should be… like any other treasure hunt… find this and go to that, then do this and then do that… over a distance of travel. He chose words and phrases to give the illusion of one thing but meant another. My examples have been posted before, So this is repeating some; “Take it in” may not be a movement as much as a view. The same for Put in or look quickly down or the idea of creek to only be water involved etc etc etc.
    This would take some very dedicated wording and proper usage of words to get it just right and honest to the words chosen and still be straightforwards. However it is not simplistic, not is it complicated… it our own ways of reading that creates the illusions that this is a normal point to point stomping mode style hunt. We’re told of nine clues, so automatically we look for 9 places, we see Not Far, but only consent rate on Too Far To Walk and force an unknown distance. The line could simply be saying Not Far… Don’t walk. Look below what you see out there.

    IMO this would be very difficult to get just the right wordings to match other words in the same manner. Not unlike the word “precisely” means “Just” because both words mean “exact” So in my theory…”just” HLnWH is the exact spot to be at. Yet, that is not all that is needed to be understood. WWH is the same location as HLnWH…only being at HLnWH within or at WWH shows how the clues can all be seen. This gives credence to; folks leaving the poem… they went on looking for clues else where. They past the seven remaining clues because the, yes, left. they were near 500 feet and some at 200 feet, because when the left, they walked right by the chest.

    Their mind set was telling them to go go go… that’s how all other hunts work. They missed used words and terms to force the poem as linear, rather than seeing how word choices were important…… OK, if that makes sense… could it be that those who deciphered the first two clues didn’t know because of three little words “take it in”? and moved on, when they should have stayed…?

    My water-tower example is the best I can come up with to show how this all could be a viewing station for all the clues and how the blaze is located. What fenn would see standing at the chest. It’s his marvel gaze we are looking at, not the chest.
    So i can see the difficulty of ” looking up words and definitions of words, changing them, rebooting, over and over to make the poem difficult in a way that many would over simplify the words and terms. He wasn’t going to make it easy and he couldn’t afford any flaws either… that would have take dedication to create…

    How do I gauge it?
    I think fenn gave us the idea already; it’s difficult but not impossible, and the idea of, What took me so long… we allow ourselves to think linear, and that is all we see in posted solves. Everyone is doing exact the same, only in different places and nobody has gone past [ as far as we know ] the first two clues with the correct deciphering of clues 3 and 4 – respectfully. At this point, they all left the poem.

    {from memory}
    “It’s not a matter of trying, It’s a matter of thinking.”
    “think, analyze, ‘plan’ and ‘observe’ ”
    “The location is huge, your destination is small”
    “Marry the clues to A Place on a map”
    “Complacency is a miss use of imagination” or something like that.
    “If you don’t have the first clue, stay home”
    “Can’t find the blaze without the first clue”
    “Need to nail down the first clue”
    **if all you have is WWWH and In the mountains N.of SF you over simplify the clues… you need all the ingredients.. In the right order.. I’ll add imo; seen as intended to be seen from one place.

    On a side note; I think hoB can’t be seen and/or understood from any other point than WWH ~ and be known for what fenn’s reference of that clue is.

    In theory of course.

    • Jeepers, what are trying to wright a book seeker?
      If someone can follow everything you said and explain it, I will eat my hat!

    • I do like the ““Take it in” may not be a movement as much as a view.” and “Their mind set was telling them to go go go… that’s how all other hunts work. They missed used words and terms to force the poem as linear, rather than seeing how word choices were important…… OK, if that makes sense… could it be that those who deciphered the first two clues didn’t know because of three little words “take it in”? and moved on, when they should have stayed…?”

      That is a great way to view it 🙂 and honestly I had never considered that. Otherwise Jake I don’t see anything complex to decipher about what Seeker wrote, just interesting logic.

      • Idle,
        I never take anyone’s writings serious when they have “honestly” and “never” stuffed into it.

      • Some won’t get the concept, Idle Dreamer.
        They just can’t think of anything else but linear thinking / linear action.
        I think we all have misread “follow” and “lead” to be physical movement, rather than an understanding of what we see. Once we misread those words the whole poem falls apart. It dominoes to the other in the poem… so, “take it in” automatically must be a movement.
        I think fenn chose words very carefully so we / the readers of a poem, create our own illusion and not his intention of those words. IMO that is the architect design in the poem.

        The poem [ ken you’ll like this ] is a riddle, as it is an illusion, not unlike a most riddles.
        Example; Whats white and black and red [read] all over?
        The illusion is most think Black and White are colors, so READ, must be Red. {of course this example only work verbally, but ya git the gist}

        This post if full of it… opinions I mean.

        • I think many discount what f means when he uses some words. By that, I mean he often uses the most often used (or common) meaning of words. He’s given us plenty of examples of this. There’s the time he gave us the word “several” and asked what that word meant. Then, he gave the definition. The problem f saw was others not understanding what that word meant. The solution to that problem wasn’t to go to a thesaurus to find a different word that has a similar meaning.

          Sure, f could have used another, more obscure meaning of words in his poem. I just think there should be a balanced look at the options for the correct deciphering of what f means with his poem words. In doing so, I think many of the words in the poem carry the common meaning of the word with them.

          • Fun,

            This is where I differ from most.
            fenn chose a poem to present the clues, and a poem allows multiple meanings usages out of the common or norm, yet still true to the word.

            Most of the words [ other than the rhyme ] have very similar usages. So while a reader attempt to interpret the poem… the words connections come into play.

            Example; Brave and in the wood. Some want brave to be a need, because, they may feel its a dangerous place, or having to be on private property, or in a graveyard.. we’ve heard them all.
            Some force wood to be woods… when petrified wood is one definition of “wood” We also have NPFTM, and again some want this to be a place we shouldn’t go… or have to be brave [fearless] to do so.

            So, in the attempt to “try and simplify” the clues;
            “we Have the idea of “In there” -which at this point in the- we just don’t have anything to really go on [ other than guessing ]. Then we have NPFTM, Not much to process here yet either. However, when we get to brave and in the wood… we might see, by word meanings and usages an idea of “in there” and “bold” [ bold meaning daring etc.]… a petrified location where the “idea” being No Place for the Meek, and the Idea, of being brave to be “in” a petrified wood location. Aligning word meanings to produce a location that would not ‘normally’ be seen when reading the poem with only the most common word usage.

            Does this give us a direct answer? That’s up in the air at this point… we still need more connections to make the ‘idea’ reasonable and bring it to a place on a map. Another-words, what I’m saying is don’t jump the gun and start looking at ever piece of land that “wood” is found. or change wood to woods simple because there are standing trees in the search areas.

            One idea to make the connection a bit stronger is the ‘book’ and the story of L&C. Some would use this story to give them a place to start like a state ~MT. But if we use the idea of fenn burning the “forest” – GNF map… we have a better location, and a map to utilize, that could connect “Bold” “brave” “meek” “in the wood” as
            an area of petrified wood.

            This “analyzing” the poem, the words, the phrasing of words may now have given up what “NPFTM” refers to as a clue and location of “that”…………. Is this the right approach?

            Well, it’s a hell of a lot better than tossing darts, or creating words from letters of other words, or guessing treasure means MT or New and Old means NM or WhY I must go to be WY…

            IMO the connections of almost every word in the poem will create the answers to each of the clues. Or the line in the poem; “If you are brave and in the wood” could mean; you have to be fearless to enter the woods because of all the creepy crawlies, and lions and tigers and bears… cuz that makes perfect sense to bring the little one on a hike in such a dangerous place unforgiving place.

            IMO, fenn basically told us [part of] his process in creating the poem; I looked up words and definitions of words and changed them, rebooted, it turned out exactly as I wanted.

            We have been told: All the information to find the chest is in the poem. Well, if so, what we have are words, their meaning and usages, to go by.
            Or we can play crosswords, created codes, and research everything from Native Americans, to artist, to other authors, find where Mom and Dad are buried or where Skippy got the plane, learn where all the RR stop are, change words from English to [Spanglish], search constellation maps for answers… lol

            My point is; were told the poem is what is needed and the book can help… why would “try and simplify” only mean the most commonly used meaning of words, or disregards synonyms?
            synonyms~ What is meant by a word, text, concept, or action.
            Isn’t that the process of understanding what we are reading in any literature?

            Well, there’s my arguments for Multiple Meanings and Usages of words… and the attempt to solve how the poem was architecturally designed.

          • Funda

            The most interesting part about the exchange the s that he didn’t really say anything different from the interviewer.

            He’s telling her she doesn’t know what several means but he basically confirmed her definition.


    • Thanks, Seeker for the interesting write up.

      I kinda have the opposite opinion about the word play in the poem but that’s ok.
      I have a hard time trying to figure out how to get any confidence in figuring out the first clue in your process.

    • Seeker,
      We’ve found 69 writing issues in your text and have also detected plagiarism.
      849 words and 4,415 characters.

      I would hate to have you as a witness in court unless it’s a hostile witness.
      Just (exact) answer the question: Yes or No.

    • There seems to be a duality at times in the Poem.For instance there could be two Marvel Gazes at the end or more depending the on who all’s there imo

  33. Has anyone considered Fossil Butte?
    Warm Water has halted there, and as a result killed the fish
    Correct me if there isn’t a canyon there
    There are two loop trails and another one that is too far to walk (scenic drive).
    You enter the park below the visitor center which houses the Brown Fossils (see link below for alternate HOB if you don’t like this one, the one in the link actually tells you his home. spoiler alert Lawrence Indiana)
    From there you drive up “Chicken” Creek Rd no paddle required, and it comes to the end. This is where I am going to hand this off. I blieve that there is limited pine growth toward the end of the scenic drive so I am guessing that you will need to be there to figure out the rest (believe it is BLM toward the end as well). I would check out Eagle Nest Point or Rubey point. Also, the Nature Trail loop looks promising. If you are going up to Eagle Nest Point you will stay to the left at the Y or you will go out to the monument, but maybe you should check that out too.
    They removed heavy loads looking for fossils. I image the water high clue will be of some assistance once you are there.
    Tarry Scant and Marvel Gaze could refer to “Near the top of the bluff is a band of hard, bituminous, or oily shale, which burns rather freely with a strong bituminous odor…. It is brownish-black in color and on the weathered surfaces a bluish white….”

    If you find it here I expect a shout out in the made for TV movie starring Nicolas Cage. My character should be played by Justin Long (Live Free or Die Hard) not Justin Bartha.

    If I have kept your attention this long then you might be interested in the reason I started looking here. I liked the font on the “N”. Thought it was an interesting choice. and noticed not all the Ns were the same. Then I noticed the N in the NM (national monument) and how there weren’t many of those. I then pulled out a ruller and connected the top of the N in Not to the N in NPS and then decided that the capital B in Brown should connect to the B in BLM. And where does it cross? Right over Fossil Butte. Then I read that Mr. Fenn didn’t make the map and didn’t have much to do with the layout. If he did have something to do with this then I just married the poem and map for you.

    Reason why this is unlikely. Not sure how someone could have gotten within 200ft with just two clues. I suppose if your HOB isn’t correct then you don’t get credit to that point and TFTW isn’t solved if you don’t have a stopping point.



    • ForrestFiend:
      imo, (never h), is not Fossil Butte fairly peripheral to what
      would reasonably be considered the Rocky Mountains? At least, long before TTOC, in my sojourns
      in that area, I don’t think that I would think of the area as being in the Rockies. But my perspective comes from living near or sometimes in the mnts, so it may be jaded.

  34. Looks like we all will be “armchair queens” until spring unless you have a penchant to risk more than you’re worth. Pillow in, and be sure you are safer but don’t be sure of anything.

  35. It’s time for the society for prevention of cruelty to hats to rein in some of the comments on this blog. Between having to worry about barbed wire, bullet holes, being eaten because of someone else’s errors and being called a fungus it’s clear that we could all treat our hats a bit better.

  36. The team site that I have been working, findingthechest dot com is ready. The blog is secured to registered users only. The idea is to be able to share information privately in order to find the treasure. I really think it will be hard for a team to find it, but we stand a much better chance than we do individually. After 8 years, and it still not being found, I see this as our best option.

    Note that registration is not a guarantee of being able to join. There will be a limited number of members to start, and all applicants will be screened for approval. The applicants, and number of applicants allowed to join, will be decided upon by the first few members. I created this as a way for people to work together in a secure environment, and believe that those people who choose to do so should be making the choices.

    Please check out the site if interested.

    – Aaron

    • Good luck with your endeavor Aaron. I personally do not feel that a group effort will work, but good luck to the effort – JDA

      • History would disagree with you as most advances in progress (on any front) were all group efforts. You even have a search group JDA so are you saying your efforts will never work? All IMO of course.

    • Registered users only?
      Secure environment?
      We stand a much better chance than we do individually?
      Good luck Aaron, I wouldn’t want to join such a tight community and I’m sure most wouldn’t want me there anyways.

      Let me know if Forrest becomes a member LOL

        • Aaron,
          I registered earlier today. Then I clicked the activation link in my Email. I don’t know if I’m experiencing technical difficulties or if I did not pass your screening process. Maybe you could Email me? butterflygarden00 at yahoo dot com

      • That’s funny Jake–If Forrest joins up I might consider as well..I’m taking Forrest’s advice so seriously about “Two can keep a secret if one is dead”, My wife is sleeping with one EYE opened now..LOL

        • If Forrest joined there wouldn’t be any more spots in the group as that would diminish the shares. lol btw R–B, your wife is wise.

    • Aaron,

      It’s been 8 years and there are a few blogs & vlogs with all kinds of different thoughts without finding the tc. I don’t see how your secured group is going to come up with better results. The group will be a bunch of people that have not been successful at this time for a short period or over a long period of time.

      Secret? I would almost bet that folks there will still not be open or shared with the fear someone will use their solve.

      Good luck, I’ll stick with it here, lots of ideas.

      Just Say’n

      • You could be right CM but hopefully the screening process will eliminate people who are afraid of sharing. That is counter intuitive to the entire idea of the site.

    • Hi Aaron, How would it be different from this site, or others, idea wise? We’ve already watched and read , nine years of ideas right?. How could the accumulated ideas be improved upon?

      • Thanks for asking James. There is good info that many stop short of sharing because they are afraid to give to much away to strangers. Some of these ideas are great but are just missing something that they cannot put their finger on. I think that if other minds are concentrating on good ideas that perhaps they can be improved upon. Open brainstorming can be very powerful for generating great ideas.

        • Aaron is right IMO. If we really are open to sharing ideas, we can help each other. Keeping ideas to ourselves IMO has left this chase unfinished. I coordinated a research group a few years ago to solve a research problem on an ancestral line which included several complicated mysteries that were hundreds of years old. I had a lot of answers, but it was unbelievable the progress we made with 100 researchers sharing information. We solved several mysteries that were hundreds of years old and now have complete documentation for this ancestral line. This would never have happened if we had not shared. I dont know what rules Aaron h
          as set up, but with our research team, nobody was allowed to share outside the group without permission from the group. We found that people from many walks of life and living in various countries could cooperate really well and we found success. Thanks Aaron!

          • Sure thing FB. We will set up the rules together. I’m hoping for a team effort on agreeing to them. We will absolutely need to agree upon not sharing info that is shared privately on the site though, and will discuss how to go about how to insure all is culpable for that info.

          • By the way , I personally am more afraid of repeating the poem over an over to myself 20 years from now, than I am of someone going rouge and finding the chest on their own.

        • Aaron,
          I have a couple of questions [ big surprise huh? ]

          Did you imply this is basically a closed site, only for members who sigh up? Others can’t read it?
          IF so, How do you keep someone from just becoming a member, just to read the results? and not participate, or worse, just give out deliberately poor info only to read what other searchers are saying.

          And probably the most important question; as you say some are scared to give up info for fear of giving too much away; Who is to say that will not happen and a lone searcher finds the trove and never tells the others?

          I mean, hypothetically, John doe collects info that gets him to the chest, fenn makes his announcement, but was asked by JD not to reveal who found it.
          I would think for those who had reservations about sharing because of that problem, would be a bit put out that they did, and never know if it was their info that got Mr. doe to the chest.

          You may have answered some of these in other post, If so, sorry for not reading them…

          • Aaron I just read one post above that kinda answer one of my question, LOL but now I have another. You said; all applicants will be screened for approval.

            Ok I’ll bite, how does that screening process work?
            Who decides on a qualified applicant?
            Does everyone share who everyone else is “personally” Name, rank and serial number?

          • Seeker, it is not quite as complicated as this. I myself do not have fear of sharing info privately, and anyone who joins should feel the same. The goal of this team is to find the treasure. Continuing to do as we all have done year after year has yielded 0 results. This gives us a better chance.

            The people I have allowed to join thus far are regular posters who have a clear passion for this. If there is anyone unfamiliar registering then I will defer to the other members, and screen with various questions about their history with this and passion for it. From there the rest can decide.

            I didn’t set it up with the thought in mind that I should run it but that the members should. By talking it out or voting.

            Signing documentation, through docusign , is how I envision us keeping it legal. Of course if someone goes rouge and finds it own their own it is a chance we take. I don’t expect that to happen with the current people that have registered so far though.

          • Aaron

            In my experience the people you are signing up won’t be any more forthcoming than they are on HoD.

            You can look forward to them giving Hints without knowledge of the clues of TC location.

  37. Something that you may not have noticed about Scrapbook #49. I actually was mulling over this scrapbook page today, although I couldn’t remember which one was about spices and I had to look at my notes. Turns out it is Scrapbook #49 where FF talks about going through the spice drawer while his wife is out grocery shopping. I started out looking to see what FF had said about Thyme. Turns out he seemed to be quite focused on cloves, rather than Thyme.

    FF says when he was a kid, his mother would let him smell the spices and he thought he would do this while his wife was away shopping. When he took the drawer out to set it on the kitchen table, something sharp on the bottom scratched the table and he figured he would have to fix it. Then he went on to examine and discuss spices.

    He made mention that Mace smells “warm”. How can something smell warm?

    He went on to say,
    “Cloves Smells bizarre and strong” Clearly this is a typo. Is it on purpose? Because the correct way to say this is that Cloves smell. . . and this should be a small ‘s’ and the word smell should be singular/not plural. Don’t know if this was FF’s error or someone else’s when it was put on this site. I’m only curious to know if it was done by accident or on purpose.

    The rest of his description of cloves says, “with a lasting sting. It took three seconds to feel the full impact of the flavor on my tongue. It was terrible. I felt jaundiced and had to suck on an ice cube. Stay away from cloves – that’s my advice. Are you sure it’s something to eat and not some kind of disinfectant?”

    He details some other spices and then comes upon another jar of cloves.

    “Another jar. Why would anyone want two full jars of cloves?” ff

    Shortly thereafter, he says, “Why does my wife have three bottles of cloves?”

    “I hear my wife pulling into the garage . . . I wonder if she bought another jar of cloves.” ff

    So I got to wondering what was this fascination with the cloves? I looked up the defintion and was rather intrigued to learn about cloves.

    Merriam-Webster notes that there is a color called “Clove Brown”. “clove brown noun
    Definition of clove brown
    1 : a dark yellowish brown
    2 : a brownish gray that is yellower and lighter than average chocolate and yellower and deeper than taupe (see TAUPE sense 1)
    — called also eagle”

    That is news to me. I have never heard of this.

    Merriam-Webster also says this about cloves.
    “the dried flower bud of a tropical tree (Syzygium aromaticum synonym Eugenia aromatica) of the myrtle family that is used as a spice and is the source of an oil”

    That is pretty much what I already knew. But I didn’t know that Cloves (Syzygium aromaticum or also, Eugenia caryophyllus) are the unopened buds of the pink flowers of the evergreen clove tree. Their name comes from the Latin word “clavus,” which means “NAIL” – a nod to their appearance, as dried cloves feature a head with tapered stem, resembling a nail.

    So apparently there is a Clove Brown that is a color. And this word is tied to Clou, which means NAIL. (https://www.thekitchn.com/inside-the-spice-cabinet-mace-99715)

    Could this help us to understand how to “nail down” the first clue?

    • Hi Flutter, I remember EC. Waters making that connection of Cloves-clou-nails. There are a couple of interesting things there:

      “Thyme was the symbol of courage in ancient Greece.”

      Arrowroot Powder
      I think this spice company should be investigated.

    • IMO, Flutter, Evergreen is the hint. It’s what nails in the first clue. So yes, Evergreen nails down the first clue. Good research. You may not see it, but it did pump up my adrenalin when I saw it. I have something a little different for Brown, more in lines with a cemetery and the name, but to “nail” down the first clue, Evergreen plays a part.

      • poisonivey,
        Thanks for your comment. I actually realized after I had made the first post that evergreen was a hint. I didn’t see it at first, but I see it now. As to how that relates to Brown, I had not thought of that, but I do see what you are hinting at, I think. It does make some sense.

    • FlutterBy

      You already have a couple of responses but I will add to it.


      That the name of the spice.
      I agree with F.
      Cloves smells bizarre and strong.

      Just like with FlutterBy. Butterfly never made any sense to anyone.

  38. “My brain is only a receiver, in the Universe there is a core from which we obtain knowledge, strength and inspiration. I have not penetrated into the secrets of this core, but I know that it exists.” —Nikola Tesla

    Perhaps this is the frequency that Forrest’s mind/spirit can finally be heard from?

    • A fully functional Pineal Gland is required to access the Core’s vibrational frequency.

      IMO .

      • The fluoride in our drinking water block’s our third eye. it causes a calcification of the pineal gland.

          • In numerous studies, iodine supplementation was found to significantly increase the urinary detoxification of both fluoride and bromide. (6)

            In one study, only one day after supplementing with 50mg of iodine, urinary excretion of bromide increased by nearly 50% and fluoride excretions increased by 78%! (13) This is a significant toxic load off the thyroid and pineal gland!

          • Tim,
            Over the target.

            Where there is hope, there are dreams – and where there are dreams, there is hope.

            Where does long-term apathy lead, and what are probable societal outcomes? Who? Why? Objective?

            Justice some silly questions…

        • And I thought the word calcification referred to calcium. What was that that Fenn said “We don’t know the meaning of the words we use” What is Fluorosis then I wonder?

          • Fluorosis is the discoloration of teeth by excessive intake of fluorine , if severe it causes calcification of ligaments. This is because fluorine is such an unstable toxin it will bind to almost anything, most prominently with calcium in the body.

          • Yeah and drink the laced kool-aid its good for you too! There has never been a scientific study that showed fluoride to be good for your teeth. European countries (who have tested ie Sweden) have outlawed fluoridation of their water! Everyone here is good at research , look it up! IMO the word that is key merely directs you, by name, to the correct area to search.

          • I don’t know what’s happening here but flourine is what holds your teeth together. It keeps them from falling apart.

            Flourine in your body protects against the sugars you eat in unbelievable quantities.

            You sound like Zap.

          • Fluorosis — Flew o’er your sis…

            I believe this sort of methodology to FennSpeak (word meaning) is helpful in cracking the poem.

            “In the wood”….Inuit

            These are just examples and I am not holding any gold coins. I also just gave you my “key word” which I posted years ago. Keep in mind I have no gold.

      • The functioning Pineal Gland negates the lateralization of the brain that leans in exoteric dominance. A Fully functional Pineal is esoteric and exoteric in equal function. Being equally grounded will help exceed the 10% functional limit caused by lateralization.

        Poetry is an esoteric and exoteric mannerism of thought and expression , equally balanced in esoteric and exoteric cognizance.

        I see this in the poem . It’s what I work with. It’s the double omega. 1) Esoteric. 2) Exoteric. Either approach is viable to solve the poem . Both together operating as one, is great Imagination .

        I wonder what one he is referring to when he writes only one?


        Just my opinion.

        • Alsetenash This is a good twist on things and outside of the Poem very perplexing too .one omega to mean the end? of what The Chase? Some thing at the end of The Chase? I was trying to make sense of it with Look Quickly Down or In the Wood somehow IDK

    • Mr. Tim-

      If you’re worried about fluorine, I don’t think you will ever find the chest. You see, there is a significant amount of fluorite on the ground in the general vicinity of the chest. Best beware. That creek water must be full of it.
      All of course is IMO

      Good luck

      1f Billy

  39. Gather round…..turn the lights down low. Find a comfy place by this crackling Juniper fire. Take a sip of your hot red zinger tea. Now listen good.

    While seaching for a video of Forrest relating about the Spanish making a tarry scant retreat during the Indian Revolt and how a chest could have been hidden by the Spanish in the wood, in haste. While searching I can
    across another video by the world renowned LummiFilm. Forrest Fenn / Pottery Shards. In the pottery flick Forrest was teaching some lessons about southwestern pottery by prehistoric indigenous peoples. I was thrilled to listen to Forrest disclose many things of interest such as what a “baby rattle laddle handle” was. He enlightened further about the Rocky Mountain Bee Weed used on prehistoric pottery.

    While quietly enjoying my late hour meal watching the video and absorbing some of Forrest’s vast knowledge, I dropped my fork in my Banquet T.V. diner and about chocked on the rubberly mixed veggies. Right out of the horses mouth Forrest was describing a type of pottery….biscuit ware that is found in the vicinity of Ab-bi-que (not the correct spelling) New Mexico. Hey…..this chase has got me “hooked on phonics”. Then Forrest said right out loud these magic words…NORTH OF
    SANTA FE. After regaining my composure I went and splashed cold water on my face….wow…..NORTH OF SANTA FE. I cant remember hearing or reading anytime Forrest using that phrase except saying the treasure is hiddden somewhere in the Rocky Mountains “NORTH OF SANTA FE”!

    Pieces are falling together.

    • Guy

      I don’t know what you are talking about but I would love to hear.

      To me, F says Santa Fe all the time when we already know he is speaking of Santa Fe.

      I don’t think I’ve ever heard an interview where he didn’t say Santa Fe.

      Have you read American Gods? Cause this guy is helping the Old God’s win the war…

    • Thank you so much for the link, Linda. I truly enjoyed it. The years I have known my husband, he’s always talked about wanting to be a winterkeeper in Yellowstone. He still wishes to be one. I can only imagine what Mr. Fuller has seen over the many years of being one.

    • Steven Fuller is a rare breed. Nice place to visit, not so nice to stay through winter. Brrrr

    • Thank you, Linda, I really loved the video, the beauty of the park and the humor of the keeper on retirement, and , the great primate migrations.

    • Thanks for sharing the link, Linda! Beautiful photos at a time of year that few will ever see Yellowstone.

    • Absolutely gorgeous. I can’t explain why someone in the 1800’s decided it was a good idea to create National Parks, but I thank them every day, and people will for 100’s of years more.

  40. And a frosty morning to you to Lugnutz. I will attempt to bring some clarity to NORTH OF SANTA FE. Forrest no doubt has said Santa Fe repeatedly over the many years of occupation….both his career as well as his abode. However, in all of his interviews, book signings, scrape books, dialogs with seekers, media interviews and other communication I personally have not heard him use the phrase “NORTH OF SANTA FE” but only in discourse as a directional concerning and related to the location of the treasure. In the video POTTERY SHARDS is the only time I have heard him use the phrase NORTH OF SANTA FE when not speaking of the treasure but speKing of a location by name. To me this was of interest as it may merit having been a “Freudian Slip”….or possibly a red herring by design being cautious knowing full well of how the sly fox operates.To this end only, to share ideas that may enrich the cooperative effort to fknd the treasure is my only goal and not to compare the size of hands…..or having a pissing contest. The spirit of Christmas is being evident this fine frosty morning as I find myself singing out loud doinv my chores around the ranch. ” OH I’M CHECKIN MY LIST…I’M CHECKIN IT TWICE….GOING TO FIND OUT WHO IS NAUGHTY AND NICE….OH SANTA.CLAUS IS COMING TO TOWN”. Crying shame…..Christmas before Thanksgiving.

  41. Just a note..
    Folks seem to have a difficult time finding when/where Forrest ruled out a cave…
    That was in an interview on the Richard Eeds show in Santa Fe.

    Others have trouble finding where Forrest made it clear the chest is hidden north of Santa Fe, NM.
    That was in the Fundamental Guidelines post he wrote on this very blog.

    You should definitely get familiar with the Cheat Sheet, Fundamental Guidelines and Safety First post on this blog…
    You can find links to them at the very top of every page…right under the photo…

    There is also a RULES post…if you wonder what you did wrong to get you tossed in moderation look at the rules…actually…it’s a good idea to check out the rules before you post a comment…

    • I don’t know what post you mean Clint. The only trains I remember Forrest mentioning would be the one that goes by the banana tree and the one he might get run over by and the one he took to Atlanta. More than one searcher have pursued a solution involving trains, including the Durango to Silverton narrow gauge that goes along the Animas River and the Cumbres and Toltec Railroad that runs between Chama, NM and Antonito, CO. There might be a couple more “train solutions” but that’s about the extent of my train memories from TTOTC. Unless you are talking about the time Forrest told me I was so dumb that I couldn’t track a train.

    • Thank you sir, same to you and everyone else.
      Don’t forget. When you bring up the Chase tomorrow with family around, some don’t want to hear about it again. Brown gravy got me in trouble a couple of times and will just say, please pass the gravy.

    • You as well Ken,

      Just to note for anyone who doesn’t have a meal to go to there is typically always places hosting a meal.

      In Missoula, MT, for example, Fuddruckers is providing a free meal between 10am-2pm. It might be hard to convince yourself to go (especially if alone) but the best thing you can do is go and enjoy the day (and some pie). Entire families are welcome (was tempted to go there this year but we like leftovers too much). Still tempted to go as they have free pie…

      • We are helping serve tomorrow…. usually couple hundred come out for the free dinner. I’m still making dinner at home too.

    • ken, back at ya…
      Just put my turkey, mash potatoes and gravy… maybe a piece of pie as well [ not punkin, yuk, maybe a nice slice of chocolate cream if ya have it. I’ll settle for apple.. oh! and Lemon meringue if there are choices!!, next to the ribs by the fence… I’ll get there someday, thanks.

      Do ya’ll deep fry the bird or oven bake? I’m not picky, just curious.

      • I still oven bake but the $30 turkey roaster at WallyWorld was mighty tempting. Eventually they will have a Turkey sized Instant Pot and with how impressive that device cooks I would probably have to cave in and get it.

      • Bad news Seeker… the ribs got ate. I’ll hook ya up with a nice T dinner with fixin’s… but ya better hurry up cause the snow is coming down! Gobble gobble all.

    • With all the calamities that I have had in my life I’ve had this year, I am reminded just how fortunate I have been throughout my life. I am truly thankful for my family and all the blessings I have received along the way.

      Happy Thanksgiving

  42. One of the things that I will be thankful for tomorrow is Forrest and the Chase. During these past 35 months I have had more fun searching for the treasure than just about anything during the past 76 years. I have seen places I would never have seen without the chase. I have had more “Fun Adventures” with four generations of family members
    than ever before. Here on Dal’s blog site as well as Jenny’s site, I have met a Family of Friends that have truly become important people in my life.. My foremost found friend is Forrest – Thanks to all of you. – JDA

  43. To each of you whom have entered my life, and those who have remained silent on the blog, may your blessings be many and laughter fill your home this Thanksgiving day.

    Happy Thanksgiving.

  44. An interesting photo of Missoula, MT with a then and now comparison:


    Looking at Mount Sentinel (the one with the M) you can see that the geographical qualities of the it really haven’t changed in over a 100 years. You can also see hints of the shorelines of Glacier Lake Missoula. Obviously I don’t believe the chest is in Missoula but I do like seeing photos that show the staying power of geographical features as I definitely believe Forrest would have chosen a spot that could also stand the test of time (at least on a scale of centuries).

  45. I hope that all have a good Thanksgiving. I’m very thankful for family and friends and the ones way back when that started the holiday and started our country. Most important I’m thankful for all those that are serving our country and hope they are safe during this holiday.

    Enough said: Lets eat comfortably and enjoy!!

  46. Happy Thanksgiving to Dal, Forrest, their families and to all the tired and worn out searchers out there. lol, Have a good one all.

      • I actually went through a brand new pair of boots well before my season ended this year. Oddly I don’t have boots now for the winter, lol.

        • I’m wearing my second pair of the year and it’s already in bad shape. I keep asking myself, “How did this happen?” (Giggle.) Well worth the price of getting out and enjoying the outside searching for the treasure. I hope you’ll get a new pair of boots soon, Idle Dreamer. 🙂

          • After those boots I went for hiking shoes as they were lighter, had great tread, and allowed me to get more ground covered (amazing how much a little bit of a load off can help). Alas they apparently weren’t as lucky as wanted them to be, but I did see a lot of wild beauty. Plus I got to see a lot of places through all the seasonal lens (technically not during winter but I did see snow on my last BOTG).

          • Have Santa bring you something that offers ankle support. Sure, boots make it harder to outrun a grizzly than would a good pair of Keds, but if you are ‘not proximate to a trail’, and in the mountains, sneakers may not be the optimal choice of footwear.

            F has gone quite lately, but maybe a new good line of inquiry would be ‘what type of footwear were you wearing when you made your two trips from your sedan to the hidey spot?’

            If he responds ‘tassel loafers’, it’s a whole new game.

          • If he replied flippers I would be a little worried but that is a great question. Definitely miss his activity but this is his party and he deserves whatever time he needs away.

          • I am apparently way too naughty for Santa as I haven’t gotten anything from him in decades.

          • Aardvarkbark,
            I’ve also been thinking about a question I’d like to see as one of the six in February. “Is the whole area from the first clue to the treasure a special place for you, or is it just the area in near proximaty to the treasure that has special meaning to you?”

            Happy Thanksgiving everyone.

          • Aardvarkbark,
            I would be very surprised if Forrest would answer the question you have proposed. He would come up with a distracting answer to draw our attention to something else. IMO

          • Aardvark…the question was asked in an interview. Fenn’s answer was something like…*If I told you that you would find the treasure.*

          • Eeds: What kind of shoes? What kind of footprints did you leave? What kind of boots did you have on?
            Fenn: “Well if I told you that, you’d go out and find it.”

      • I’m sure you’ll get them pdenver 🙂
        Wishing everyone here a Wonderful Thanksgiving !

  47. Ken;

    A few days ago you posted something that caught my attention:

    ken on November 16, 2018 at 6:42 am said:
    Seeker…I hear ya’. I still believe there is another aspect that may come into play at the Blaze. Not sure what exactly, however, even using the word *obvious* seems to indicate that the *actual distance* to the treasure chest may incorporate another *twist*. In an attempt to validate the ATF to keep things true and in perspective we can’t eliminate the word precisely either. Why doesn’t *precisely* bring one right to the chest exactly? Why several steps away?

    I like your use of the word “Twist”, which can mean “spiral”. I also like your “several steps away.”

    I think that a “spiral” or “Turn to the right” is needed if one is to find Indulgence – as long as they are on the correct “level”. – Then, as you say, it may be “several steps away.”
    Question is – what is several steps away? 11, 44, or 95 – just to pick a few odd numbers???

    At least, what you say. seems to match my current solve location. Now all I have to figure out how many steps – Just musin’ – JDA

      • Here is one of many quotes: “Forrest has made many statements over the years saying “people” (sometimes saying “searchers) have been within 500 feet of the treasure and within 200 feet of the treasure. Sometimes he said they “went” right by it; another time, he said they “walked” right by it. One of my favorite quotes came from Forrest at the Q&A after the premiere showing of The Lure in Santa Fe (May 2017). He said ” The people that were within 200 feet didn’t know they were that close to the treasure and they walked right on by it.” f JDA

        • Thank you JDA,
          People implies more than one to me but I am curious if anything indicates more than one group has been within 200 ft.

          • All of the quotes that I have seen just say – “People” or “Searchers” have been within 200′ – JDA

          • Thanks again JDA, hopefully you are in the 200 ft club. Have a great Thanksgiving tomorrow!

          • Or maybe the 95 foot club since there was no end of summer update! In my speculation of course as currently there is no proof anyone has been closer than 200.

    • Hey JDA… I kinda forgot the actual gist of my post for a minute. I think I was trying to justify Fenn’s comments about the blaze(obvious) and the comment referencing about a *correct solve* (new phrase). My thought was focusing on *knowingly* and *within several steps*. Why not *precisely* to the treasure chest? The poem seems to indicate finding the blaze and looking quickly down from there…and perhaps a searcher sees the chest *from there*? That was why I added the *twist*… just indicating that to complete the retrieval requires another action.

      • Ken ~ My thought was focusing on *knowingly* and *within several steps*. Why not *precisely* to the treasure chest?

        I think this is the idea of Wise and Found, or discover. Knowingly being in the correct spot, knowingly have the correct blaze out of the billions. In fact, there could be more than one blaze [ by definition ] in the same small location… so that would have a need for the poem to be precise.

        And I agree, there is a step between the found blaze and the picking up of the chest. “look quickly down” seems to imply doing something to actually get to the chest spot .. In there.. come to mind.

      • Ken and Seeker;

        I agree that one must “Knowingly” be in the right spot, and I agree that “Look quickly down” and “In there” imply an action is required once the blaze (and yes there probably is more than one in a small area) is found.

        The question is, of course, how close has a searcher knowingly come, to the blaze, and yet – for one reason or another – not been able to find and retrieve Indulgence?

        With snow on the ground, we may not know the answer to that question until spring or early summer.

        I am sure that Forrest will say – Within 200′ – as he has for the last few years. And the search goes on…. JDA

        • JDA ~ ‘The question is, of course, how close has a searcher knowingly come, to the blaze, and yet – for one reason or another – not been able to find and retrieve Indulgence?’

          It doesn’t seem to matter how close anyone has been near the blaze, it only matters if they know it is “the” blaze.
          I mean, it’s possible for a searcher to have say on the blaze [ lets call it a rock ] and only know of it as a rock, and not a blaze or “the blaze.”
          Folks seem to think fenn’s blaze will be hooting and hollering, *Here I am*… just because they manage to get near it [ without a full correct solve to get to it ]. I personally don’t think anyone [ searcher included ] will know what it is, unless the clues lead them ‘right to it.’ No matter how close they might have been.
          Heck, the blaze [ for all we know ] could be 200′ from the chest ]

          Even then, a searcher may not know why or how to use it… imo. Call that the security system… “no one will stumble upon the chest” The blaze may do more than just mark a spot below it. { but, have a look anyways, only to be sure. }

          • Seeker;

            YUP, a rock is a rock, but the right rock just might be something special. Something that protects Indulgence from the snow and rain – Just musin’ – JDA

    • Only in my dreams JDA, though I did dream Forrest posted today but just to wish everyone well. That dream didn’t come true.

      I did see this again which seems relevant to your twist conversation:

      In your dictionary, what’s an aberration? ~Serge Teteblanche

      I don’t have a dictionary but my personal definition is “Something different.” I like that word.

      When I was a kid there was a commonly used word. Crean, and it described the condition a car could get into when it ran into a ditch and the frame twisted a little, preventing the doors from opening. Modern autos are more sturdy so I guess that word was retired. I can’t find it anywhere now.f

      This reminds me of the concept going around about the hidey spot being tight.

      • Well ID – we all have to dream don’t we. Good luck with making your 95′ dream come true. Sure hope it is a short winter, and I can beat you to it though 🙂 – Just kidding – JDA

        • The problem with short winters is smokey summers (I assume that is what your kidding about). As for being within 95 feet, I hope for both of our sakes if either of us gets within 95 ft we make it to 0 ft. Then we can finally unpeel the layers of this chase.

          The layers (imo):

          The first layer is spotting the chest and knowing your quest could finally cease (for now).

          The second layer is opening the lid and spotting that which is secreted to the finder.

          Third is not having a heart attack on the way back to your sedan*

          Fourth is deciding how to surprise Forrest with the news and the bracelet.

          5th is baking a cake and eating it too (while hopefully sharing it).

          All imo as an idle dreamer, other peoples endings obviously will vary. Some might have a parade, others a piggy back ride from Harrison Ford, or perhaps an escort/ride to Sante Fe from the Blue Angel’s. Dream on everyone until your dreams come true.

  48. It was dusk as I wheeled up over the canyon rim without high centering the SUV. Boy, was I bushed, having wandered around scrambling up and down the canyon peeking into every cranny that could conceal a 10″ X 10″ box. It would not have been so taxing if my GPS did not putter out on me earlier in the day and would have saved me lost time trying to find the SUV. I told myself in a stern voice, I don’t think anybody heard me, ” this is it, no more boots on the ground until next spring”. That kind of rational thinking can get you in trouble, big trouble. I knew the minute the forest service road reached the black top that I was way to exhausted to drive very far.I turned on the radio in hopes of findng a talk radio show to keep me company. Nothing, just static blaring as I pushed the search button again, and again, and again, still nothing.

    In the distance I see faint lights ahead. As I gained mileage I could make out the flashing neon sign that said VACANCY. I wheeled in slowly and was overjoyed to be at an old motel complete with half buried tires that were painted white in a circle in the middle of several small cabins. I got a room and the kind old woman that pressed a key in my hand told me that the diner next door was serving Thanksgiving Diner today but would be closed tomorrow on Thanksgiving Day. After throwing some of by baggage into the room I dragged myselc in the diner and have an early Thanksgiving diner complete with dressing and a piece of pie. It was the best Thanksgiving diner that ever crossed my lips.As I was leaving the cook walked out from behind the counter and flipped the sign on the door to closed as I exited and said “Happy Thanksgiving stranger….hope you enjoyed the Roadrunner”! Guess What State I Was Searching In?

  49. Guinness Book of world records usually list the largest, the smallest, the tallest, the shortest, the highest, the deepest, and the most famous of the world, etc. Everybody (or everything) wants to be listed as one of the most or the best in the Book before they die and some actually die for the record. For example, some “free” divers tried to dive into the deepest water, but ended up dead due to the lack of oxygen in their lung to breathe.

    The reason why I mention Guinness Book is that when you want to do something like Forrest Fenn did, you want to select the best locations or the most famous places so that people would recognize them easily IMO. You don’t want to select a lonely far out location that nobody recognizes or even comes to look for it. You would like to select a famous location for your hiding place, but well hidden from ordinary people’s casual sights. There is a saying, “it’s always in the last place you look”. I think the TC is hidden somewhere very close to a famous landmark or place frequented by people all the time, but neglected to check there.

    I wrote a small origin story that may (or may not) explain what I commented about the chase in various discussions up until now. By the way this chase forum is the only one I posted. Enjoy.
    Let us assume that you wanted to leave a mark in history before you die (not worth to be listed in Guinness Book, but a personal endeavor to leave as a legacy nonetheless). You decided to create a chase for the treasure chest so that people got hooked, spent time and effort to get on BOTG to come out to the nature from chairs and couches instead of watching a TV or iPad or iPhone. They might experience the nature like they never had before or enjoy the time spent together with their family.

    Now it’s time for you to choose the place to hide the chest. Where do I hide it? Should I hide it in the wilderness far away from the civilization or somewhere close to famous locations or landmarks frequented by many visitors? Should I choose a location close to where I live or other locations far from my house but a lot more famous and known to all other people?

    — So, I chose to hide the TC somewhere close to a famous location (also well known to me) visited by many people, even though it is far from where I live. (IMO Fenn’s comment “at least 8.25 miles North of Santa Fe” is correct but could be a misguiding comment, because it could very well mean either 82.5 or 825 miles instead.)

    Now it’s time for you to leave a map to the hidden treasure. Should I leave a treasure map with an X or write a poem to instruct readers to follow to the TC? How should I write the poem? Should I give out a lot of hints and comments to guide searchers in the right direction or to steer them in the opposite direction? Are they wise enough to interpret the clues in the poem correctly?

    — Well, I would write books telling my life and stories with a poem and the map for the chase as a bonus. I would write the poem with lots of turns and twists so that there may be multiple solutions and nobody will be able to solve it correctly in 100 years to come. I would also use the MOST FAMOUS locations in the vicinity around the hidey spot as the waypoints in my poem. “They would never guess that my TC is hidden so close to these locations, no, they never will.”

    Then you saw a movie called “National Treasure” In 2004. “Oh, that’s an interesting idea of a treasure hunt with a lot of clues and stories to follow” you thought. “I know the place to hide the TC and the idea of my own to write a poem and a couple of books. A key word ‘Silence’ is a good idea. Maybe I’ll do the same in my poem”.

    — I decided to buy a bronze chest and put gold coins and nuggets and some of the valuables I’ve collected along my line of business until that time, and one day I hid the treasure at the location only I have known since childhood. I was old and couldn’t carry the 42 pound TC in my backpack, so I decided to carry the contents first and the empty chest next in two separate trips from the car. Going down the trail was not easy for me. “Boy, wish I were a lot younger!” I told to myself. Coming up the same trail twice was not easy task for me either even though my backpack was empty because the slope was very steep. I think I should warn the searchers about this in the poem. “Have you really done that?” I told to myself when I returned to my car in the parking lot.

    You spent some time, 15 years to be exact, to write and rewrite the poem so that the poem itself was straight forward if looked at like a child is reading it, but at the same time, very hard if looked at like a crypto-analyst or a number cruncher is analyzing it. You studied a lot about the history and geography around the hiding place and chose the words carefully so that the words used in the poem would imply or relate to all those prominent places one way or another.

    You thought that a poem consisted of 6 stanzas, each containing 4 lines, would do the job, and began to work on the rhyme to make it better. But you soon found out that in order to get the rhyme right, you have to rearrange the lines, i.e., the order of instructions. “Ah, I can write my lines in different tenses to tell the readers that the order is rearranged. The searchers would be able to follow the order once I hinted them that you have to read the poem in the correct order.”

    — It’s been 8 years since I hid the TC, but the searchers kept sending emails and pictures to me about their solutions and places they have visited. Some of the searchers seemed to crack the first couple of hints and were close within 500’ or even 200’ from the TC judging from the pictures they sent, but they went to Neverland afterwards. “Boy, it was close and I’m glad they stopped there and veered to the wrong direction. Yes, the chest is still there as I hid it.”

    As far as you know the TC is still lying out there wet, seen by no one, touched by nobody, and moved by none. Will anybody ever find it? Will the TC ever see the light of day? Nobody can tell, and nobody will ever know until a brilliant searcher figures out the whole thing and triumphantly retrieves the chest like a warrior with a loot in his hand high up in the air shouting “I have finally done it!”.

    The End.

    Happy Thanksgiving everybody!

    — MajinKing

    • I like your thinking….. I couldn’t have said it better.

      Happy Thanksgiving

      Billy and the boys

  50. Marbles, lets talk about marbles. There is the chapter in TTOTC. Where else has Forrest talked of marbles? I didn’t find much on Tarry Scant. Thanks, EOG

    • Hi EOG,
      What about marbles? I thought the word appearing in the poem is “marvel” not “marble”?
      — MK

    • Ecstasy, I never thought the marbles were as important as the ring drawn in the dust…. the circle of play. I think the marbles, the agates, the labor, the sales & trades, etc. was just memoir, story. But that circle (border) might reflect the poem in some way.

    • Forrest’s bathroom has something made of marble that also happens to be my favorite color.

  51. OS2,
    Ive always thought that drawing had no significance to the poem at all. Ive heard people suggest that the people represent mountain peaks. Ive heard the marbles and the circle discussed. I always ignored it because I thought the drawing was just boys playing marbles. Until this week! I figured something out quite by accident, because I happened to look up a definition of a word and found q surprising definition. I now firmly believe that the three marbles in the circle represent WWWH. They arent mountains, or trees or landmarks you cant find the marbles represented on a map. They are an idea! A thought! A concept! IMO. They are the definition of WWWH.

    • Wow, fluttery… I’ll have to wait for that to reveal itself. Sounds interesting. Word searches (etymologies) have been mind expanding for me. Good Luck. OS2

    • Flutterby…does the arch or gateway formed by the boy’s arm to the north of the circle containing 3 marbles ring any bells for you?

    • Flutter, it’s not 3 marbles. Need to look at the picture a little closer. The marble on the left is actually a “smiley” face, not a marble.

      • It may be a smiley face. But if you understood the concept Im talking about, you would see that the three “marbles” within the circle perfectly define one place WWWH. I think it takes some deep thinking and yet, it is really very simple. IMO

        • is this concept dependent on it actually being “3” marbles within the circle, that define wwwh? Or, would “2” marbles still give the same answer? Because there are only “2” marbles. If this concept requires there to be 3 marbles, then “MY SPANISH TOY FACTORY” would not qualify as being the info that leads to this concept, and would need to have another source to validate. And remember, there is no “subtle” info that can answer wwwh. Since nowhere says wwwh has to do with 3 marbles within a circle, which would be “un-subtle”, then I would think your concept would qualify in being “subtle”, which it cannot be, and therefore, not correct…

          • Poisonivey,
            The concept I discovered /rediscovered this week was not understood by looking at that picture at all. It just happens that as I was reading about the concept, the picture of the boys playing marbles came to mind. I realuzed that the picture illustrated the concept, possibly unintentionally. Im sure there are other ways to illustrate the concept. It just happened that the marble pic does illustrate this concept. The concept really is a place WWH. Is it the place FF is talking about? That remains to be seen. All Im saying is that any variation of a pic of boys playing marbles would probably have illustrated it even if the artist didnt know it. I just didnt notice the idea in the story itself until I read about the concept and I thought of the picture which really is just an illustration of the text. This is just my opinion and I think that if you understood the concept, you would see it in the picture.

  52. Not a turkey induced dream but something that gives a better insight into the minds of children and what they are thankful for this Thanksgiving day:


    The actual quote though does not apply to the chase (stay safe), don’t try that way but do try to think like a child at least a few times as an adult.

    Again, Happy Thanksgiving! Glad you shift is done Bowmarc and that this is likely finding you in a turkey induced dream.

    • This is a real goodie. Thanks Dal. Where has it (the recording) been hiding…and was it Irene that gave it to you? Thanks again…

        • I saw that Zap…more of the same same. I can say for certain that I have not heard the Doug/Forrest/ Irene recording before. Some very similar lines…but not *exact*. One takeaway for me was another comment(an early one to boot) “A lot of times it boils down to definitions.” Another is talking about the very subtle hints in the *text* of TTOTC that will help with the clues…* correlate the two…mix ’em up and catalyst this…*. Another … “…every word is crafted…it’s not just a sentence…”

          • “I said in my book that there are very, very subtle hints in the TEXT of my book, that won’t lead you to the treasure chest, but they’ll help you with the clues. ”

            LOL!! I had to play it back three times just to ensure I was hearing it correctly, Ken…..It’s gonna be interesting to see how they get around an unambiguous statement like that, by him??

            (knew it wouldn’t get by you) 🙂

          • Hi Ken — he has (seemingly) limited TTOTC’s subtle hints to the text before. From The Fenn Diagrams (date unknown): “Q. Will the subtle clues in the book be explained somewhere, sometime? (Maybe you have a book to be published once the chest is found?)”
            Forrest: “The hints in the Thrill of the Chase text will not be made public because they would say more than I want to reveal. Discovering which hints to use is part of the mystery.”

          • yeah well Loco… this audio is fairly early and highlights some important *later* comments made by Fenn that some folks just can’t…or won’t believe. Probably THE biggest takeaway for me is the comment about sitting down with a coffee… alone… maybe kicking the kids out… and *thinking*…. carry on.

          • Zap… that one is from 2013-2014 or so and there is another…however…folks still speak of illustrations and such. Go figure….

          • Hi ken: I don’t depend on the illustrations, but I don’t ignore them either. Forrest has never said there aren’t hints in any of the illustrations. He has ~implied~ it by the conspicuous absence of their mention in the context of hints. And to use the illustrations as a hint mechanism would be difficult without tipping off Allen. Still, absence of proof is not proof of absence, and plenty of searchers do incorporate the illustrations into their solutions.

          • It went from “very” to:
            “very, very”
            What’s next…
            Very, very, very?
            I’m beginning to think it’s not worth using TTOTC for any hints to help with the clues.

          • Hey, you never know.
            Maybe when he says TEXT, he’s hinting to TEXas, Temple.
            Time for more leftovers again.

          • Well, gentlemen…I just re-googled the definition of “text”. My feeble mind interprets one of the definitions to include illustrations. I think they are in play. Forrest himself says that he only likes to read books with pictures.

      • Loco, ken and some of us have been peddling that issue for a very long time. VERY, VERY SUBTLE HINTS IN THE TEXT OF MY BOOK.

        Every word in that poem is crafted. is not a synopsis, is a craft.

        Is not EASY, if it was easy anybody could do it. what we don’t do today is THINK, we skip the surface instead of diving down.

        Where is Seeker? I hope he didn’t have an aneurysm… lol

        • Some interesting things stated that seem to apply to other comments;
          ~If it recall correctly fenn said {paraphrasing} if anyone is going to my book they should read My War for Me.
          In this interview he says; Scrapping targets… that’s why the grave-marker in my book became so important to me, there was something lot larger than me…that’s where the treasure chest became important thing to me.
          ~As of this recording date fenn apparently never said; there were 265 gold coins in the chest. Hmm interesting that he wanted to say it at all.
          ~fenn also used the word “woods” rather than “wood” recalling folks e-mails.
          ~Every word in the poem is crafted. [ sounds like plain English his not as simplistic as some hope. ] which matches fenn’s other comments, one being; I looked up words and definitions of words, changed then and rebooted… it came out exactly as I wanted.
          He also mentions the hint are in the text of the book…The quote I have…
          Chicago radio WGN interview, March 2013: http://lummifilm.com/blog/WGN2013.mp3
          Minute 10:45, Q: Does the book give me any more information than I would get from the poem?
          A: “There are some subtle hints in the text of the book that will help you with the clues.  The poem will take you to the chest but the book by itself won’t.” f
          { kinda kills the idea of illustration will help }

          Like Zap said; I had deja vu myself, only I wonder if we are just hear the same as years go on. fenn has a mind like a steel trap and has been very accurate from one comment to another, from one interview to the next.. for now 8 years.
          I can’t remember if I turned off the Cawffee maker after finishing the pot

          But I did like the little tidbit at the end…

          • Thank you, Seeker — yes, that’s the other occasion that Forrest has used the phrase “hints in the text of the book” — I was having trouble digging it up because I hadn’t gone to the trouble of transcribing all of that WGN interview.

            But I still disagree with your assessment that it “kinda kills the idea of illustration will help”. That is not a good application of logic — just because Forrest specifies hints in the *text* of the book does not exclude hints in other elements of the book. Maybe he doesn’t want to comment about that because it would be too helpful — after all, there is a lot more text to examine than there are illustrations to scrutinize. Furthermore, what if (as some searchers have suggested) there is text hiding in the illustrations? Would that not also qualify as “text” in the book?

          • Zap,

            I’m no going to look for it… but there was a comment, I believe it was a blog from fenn actually, {maybe a Q&A} stating who did the illustrations in his book. So the question is; did fenn influence artist in anyway, and if so, wouldn’t that artist have a heads up on exactly what was changed, suggested, or talked about in any way?

            IF any of my recalling is correct, do ya really think fenn would take the chance on ‘anyone’ possibly knowing something about an illustration and how it might help? I doubt it… but who knows. The fact is, there are at least two maybe three comments that specifically says; “text” in the book.

          • There are clear definitions regarding what *text* is.
            There are also clear definitions as to what an illustration is.
            The horse is clearly whooped on this one. Each *searcher* probably needs to be honest with themselves as to how far one should stretch things sensibly….
            I find it very interesting that this *vintage* clip has surfaced with some very telling *deja vu* like comments at this time.

          • With Zap on this one Seeker. Hate to say it, but I think the same way as far as the pics. Too many are manipulated, and a few do hold hints, IMO. but of course, they are hints to my solve, which could be wrong meaning they are not hints. More text hints, I’ll say this, some of the pics have been manipulated, and there must be a reason why. I would think. The gold nuggets alone are obvious, pg 133 I think. Along with pg 57, just to name a few.
            Just noticing what the quote is that you referenced, as far as I see, the illustrations do not help in solving the clues. So in that regard, I would say you are correct. There are hints in the pics, but not in the regard of helping with the actual clues, IMO. And, come to think of it, the text hints do help with the clues, hmmmm, so I guess you’re both right, agghh, I’m confusing myself. More eggnog needed. Not quite strong enough yet…

          • W O W Seeker, lots of Secrets hidden here – If we can just figure them out. Thanks for posting – JDA

          • I have never thought the pics in the book were significant until I came across an idea this week. It actually would not have required FF to tell the artist anything at all abour how to draw the picture of the boys playing marbles in order for this concept to be illustrated in that picture. Any variation the artist might have drawn, in which two or three marbles are enclosed in a circle would have illustrated this concept. So while I didnt think the pics were important til a couple of days ago, I now wonder if this one might be. Do I think FF told the artist how to draw it? No. I just think the story told about the marbles has been illustrated by the picture and therefore, the picture may inadvertently contain the hint.

          • Mr. Fenn said it best:

            “I am a little surprised at the variation of personalities that are involved,” Fenn told me in an email. “It is [a] cross-section of who we are as a people, and an interesting study in anthropology.”

            A Chest Of Gold Hidden In The Rockies Is The Ultimate Social Experiment

            (I wonder what will be added to the test tube next??)

            Good Luck Y’all!!!!!!!

          • poisonivey… Just for you, or anyone for that matter.

            2/22/2017 Dear Mr. Fenn, There is talk on the chatter boards that you photoshopped some of the pictures in your TTOTC book. Care to settle that question once and for all? Ollie

            ” Ollie, I have not photoshopped anything because I do not know how, and never had a reason to learn. On page 64 of TTOTC our book designer put Skippy in the driver’s seat of his car. She searched my photo collection and found just the right one. I watched her size it and was amazed at the process. It proved once again that I’m not yet ready for the 20th century. A few photos were cropped and some were enlarged, but that’s about it, except for the collage on page 133, which was her idea. f”

          • Zap ~’ Furthermore, what if (as some searchers have suggested) there is text hiding in the illustrations? Would that not also qualify as “text” in the book?’

            It really depends on what you or anyone considers text. A squiggle line that may or may not have numbers? Initials or what seems to be initials? A depiction of a flower or rock or something else that we can twist into letters or words?

            Now If you’re talking caption or notes with a picture… I can’t argue that kinda text.. only, that wouldn’t be considered hidden, right?

            fenn has talked about the illustrations, has talked about the pictures, and it seems that he is being honest when he tells us that others [folks hired to do the job, artist, photographer, book designer etc.] had done work on them. But the only part of the book that was truly fenn [ for lack of a better term ] is the text.

            I’m not trying to sway you or anyone from thinking what ya like… I’m just looking at the possibilities of what can or couldn’t be. In my mind, if others were told to do something [ add this or that to a picture or drawing for example ] that would give heads up that there might be something important to know of. I doubt fenn would take that chance. Could you imagine IF the illustrator of the book found the chest, and later states it was because of a change in his drawings?

          • Hi Flutterby — the boys shooting marbles illustration is absolutely a hint as far as I’m concerned. Forrest could tell Allen exactly what to depict in the illustration and it wouldn’t clue him into anything. And to be honest, I don’t think the hint is all that helpful to searchers. It’ll mean nothing to anybody who isn’t already dialed into the right general location, but it’ll bring a little chuckle to those who are. It doesn’t do anything to direct a searcher to the chest, or even from clue to clue. All in my opinion, naturally.

          • Ken, for you, I don’t photoshop either, I don’t know how to, I use a different program. Ken, pics are manipulated, there is no feuding that. In fact, almost all of them are. We’ve discussed it before. I could easily show you, in the book. Not only pg.133, but pages: 8,22,28,34,52,54,56,64,124 just to name a few that are easy to see. Along with some of the drawings. Page 33, the drawing is a hint, and not 3 marbles. The ATF you used can be used as plausible deniability, like I said, he could easily say he uses a different program. The point is, if time was spent to do it, then time should be spent in why. Maybe that is the thing that a searcher needs to do to be considered “wise”. Like I’ve said before, it mostly is f just having fun. But some are basic hints, not to solve for clues, but more of a support role. Confidence gainer. I would be weary of solves that didn’t have an answer to why it was done. We need to exhaust every possible angle to the chase we can. But realize that even in the end, we will not know everything. Thinking that the pics are nothing is like thinking bells are nothing, IMO. There is a reason for all his stories, just like there is a reason of why some pics/illustrations are manipulated.

          • Zaphod,
            I agree. The pic of the boys playing marbles would provide no hint (subtle or not) if you were not clued in already. I think the hints are so subtle throughout the book, that they are better for confirming an idea that coming up with one. IMO

    • Thanks Dal, that’s an interesting listen. Nothing completely new, but the phrasing and word choices put different emphases on some points.

      A few things I get from it.
      “Every word in that poem is crafted. It’s not just a sentence, it’s a craft.”
      If every word is “crafted” we need to look for information in every sentence and every word.

      When talking about how to solve the poem.
      “You know what we don’t do today is think”
      “The person that can do that (spend enough time thinking about the poem)… may find the chest”
      (these are fragments from a longer passage, but they convey the meaning).
      I’ve spent a lot of time with the poem and am getting somewhat burned out on it, but am now thinking I need to dive deeper into the poem.

      Another thought I got indirectly from this interview is that he is so willing to tell his own stories, but has said that he won’t tell the story of why the hiding spot is special. Maybe he’s hesitant because it’s not his story to tell?

      • He has the right to tell the story, as well as the right — which he seems fond of exercising — to tease us. I don’t see any of this as a big deal.
        As always, IMO.

      • JW,
        I think FF won’t tell the story of why the hiding pla e bvb is so special because it would give too much away. Explaing the reason he chose the place would be too much hinting. IMO

        • FB,
          It probably would give away additional information on how to find the chest if it came out now. But he stated that he took it out of his autobiography in the chest, and said that he doesn’t want to tell that story. To me that implied that even when the chest is found he won’t say why the place is special.

          • JW,

            That was a very interesting act of removing the story from the bio in the chest.
            I mean, the place is special to fenn, why wouldn’t he want anyone to know the reason it is special to him? Even 1000 years from now.

            You said; ‘ To me that implied that even when the chest is found he won’t say why the place is special.’ I agree. Nor will we be able to guess why, or even, try beforehand to know and hope it helps with a solve.

            The thought kinda bugs me a bit. You [ a searcher, a now enthusiastic explore [ because of being influenced by the guy who created the chase ] may never know why the place he was going to die at, and hid a chest full of gold, is so special, he would do just that… rest for eternity and took it with him, line of thinking.

          • That part may be part of what is learned along the way…and just know it, but not have it verbally confirmed. Two can keep a secret kind of deal.

          • Ken,

            I actually have a theory on just that. It doesn’t explain when this places was discovered, but it might explain the place was, to recover.

          • Seeker and ken,
            Thanks, both are very possible. Maybe the finder will be able to figure it out, maybe they won’t. Thinking about it isn’t likely to help a searcher, but I find it curious.

      • It simply would give too much away, to relate WHY? If any of us are around when the tc is found, much more will be known about his special choice.

        • Much more will be Known about the special place, IF the Finder and Forrest want it to be disclosed. The WHY – probably never – unless Forrest chooses to disclose it. The question is WHY he would want or need to? The place I search is very special. Special because of many things. If it turns out to be THE special place for Forrest, MY reasons for calling it special, I am sure, will be different than WHY Forrest thinks it is special. IF I find Indulgence, will I disclose it? That will be up to Forrest, not me. Just sayin’ – JDA

          • IMHO, If the treasure is found, and the finder chooses not to disclose the location or solution, Mr. Fenn will not disclose either, nor will he disclose the fact that the treasure has been found.

          • I disagree – Forrest has said that if it is found, he will disclose this information. Sorry, I do not have a quote – Maybe Zap can help – JDA

          • Hi JDA: I don’t have the quote handy, but you are correct — Forrest has always said he will tell everyone when he knows it’s been found. And that was even before anyone had died searching for the treasure, so his motivation is even higher to break that news soon after he learns.

          • Thanks PDenver for posting the link to Jenny’s — wow, it was longer ago than I thought. His final two sentences are very revealing w.r.t. the retrieve-it-in-any-weather (vs. season) comment:

            “It seems logical, that if someone solves the clues, they will retrieve the treasure immediately. Until they do, no announcement can have teeth. With snow coming on the situation, this changes of course; in which case, if I were the searcher, I’d stay very quiet until spring.f”

  53. Alone “in there”, Could be , alone “there in”. Like “new and old”, would usually be said, “old and new”. It might be worth going through the poem looking for, other possible reversals. Just to hear what they sound like.

  54. I have seen several scrapbook pages in which FF rearranges the words to state something in a different way. So, looking for places he might have done that, works for me, as long as its used only to understand what he is saying and not to literally change the order of the words. IMO

  55. I am NOT a numbers person, and I am NOT a Yellowstone believer, but last night I got to thinking about how impossible this quest is that we are on.

    I first thought about one square mile. That would be 5280′ X 5280′ which equals 27,878,400 square feet. Since the chest is 10″ X 5″ if it is on its side (let’s call it 12″ X 6″ for simplicity) that equals 55,756,800 squares big enough for the chest to fit in – If it is on its side – in a one mile X 1 mile square.

    Yellowstone National Park is 3,472 square miles – that equals 190 billion, 587 million, 609 thousand and 600 blocks that Indulgence could fit in – and that is just Yellowstone National Park. How many blocks are included in the Rocky Mountain search area? – TRILLIONS!!! No wonder it has not been found.

    If you take the 193,587,609,600 and divide that by 350,000 (estimated # of searchers) that comes out to 553,107.456 “boxes” that each searcher is responsible for – if only Yellowstone NP is considered. W O W – What a challenge!!! Now think about how big that number would be for the entire search area – W O W – Just musin’ JDA

    • P.S. – If Indulgence is sitting flat, and not on its side, the number is half as large, but still in the trillions – PHEW, I feel better now – I guess – JDA

      • Come on JDA… Don’t get cold feet now. Not long ago you had it down to a very small area…didn’t you? Did you listen to the new audio yet?

        • Hi Ken;

          I am not getting cold feet – The opposite to be exact. I do feel like I have it down to a small area, and was a bit amazed at how impossible that is – considering the trillions and trillions of “boxes” that it COULD be in. No, I have not listened to the new taps – because of my bad hearing, I seldom listen to tapes – maybe I should give it a try though – JDA

          • Good to know you are still on the move. Maybe a transcript will pop up on Tarryscant for you JDA… there are a few good comments in it to think about.

          • Hi JDA,
            You have to subtract from the total area the area occupied by rivers, lakes, and creeks (which are related to water, since Fenn said the TC is not under water) and any area whose elevation is lower than 5,000 and higher than 10,200 feet. That will reduce the area quite a bit.
            — MK

          • MK: or just eliminate the three states that the chest isn’t in. That’ll shrink the area a lot. 😉

          • Ken – I can hope for a transcript. Tried listening to it, but too much was hard to understand – DARN!!!
            Maybe Zap or some kind soul will post a transcript – or point me to one once it comes out.

            MK – The exercise was not to be exact – just a fun thing to play with. NON-scientific for sure – JDA

          • Hi JDA: here’s a start on a transcript for you. I skipped over the first parts talking about killing mosquitoes, and the Dalai Lama, and the death penalty and such, and waited until Irene steered the discussion toward the Chase. Starting at 2:39, Doug Preston asks Forrest: “Well, I’m curious to know when you originally conceived the idea of burying … (uh ~burying~, I should say that, of *hiding* the treasure.”

            Forrest replies: “Well in 1988, uh, I had a little tiny pain in my left groin — it went on for a year. And finally I said I’m just going go check this out because … only when I laid down, it was very faint. To make a long story short, uh, they removed a kidney and found a big tumor on the vena cava that takes the blood back to the heart. And, going into the operation, my doctor said, ‘Well, normally we wouldn’t remove a kidney just because it isn’t working.’ But he said, ‘Since you have a little pain there, let’s remove the kidney.’ I said ‘What are the chances of … of cancer?’ He said, ‘5 %.’ I said, ‘Okay, let’s do it.’ Well a two-hour operation turned into five, and when it was over he told me I had a 20% chance of living three years. And my radiologist, who was giving me radiation, he wouldn’t answer my question. Finally, I said, ‘Damn it, doctor, what are my chances?’ He said, “Mr. Fenn, you’ve got an uphill battle.’ And, you know, coupled with 20% chance of living, I told myself, you know, it took me … first, it’s shock, then it’s disbelief, then it’s … it’s anger, and you go through all of the emotions. And then finally I said, ‘Well dammit, I’m not gonna live through this, but … but I’m … I’m not gonna … you’re going to have to drag me down the hall with black marks all over the floor.’ I said if I’ve got to go, I’m just going to take it with me, and heck with everybody else. I mean … my … I’m … I’m gonna leave on my terms, not on your terms. And I … and … I made some arrangements, and … and I said … I found that … I found that chest, and when I found that beautiful chest, that was what really … that was the catalyst. Because it was so beautiful, and I said ‘That’s the way to go.’ And I started … I went to gun shows in different places, and I started buying gold. Big nuggets. Uh, there’s … there’s 20.2 troy pounds of gold in that chest. And there’s all kinds of bracelets with diamonds and rubies and emeralds and different things. And I said yeah … I said that’s okay. That’s what I want to do. If I’ve got to go, I’m going to take this with me, but … but that’s not the END. Because you’re coming up behind me, and I want you to look at me and say, ‘You know if he can … if he can do that, I can do that. I’m gonna go find his chest.’ And I can’t tell you how many people have sent me emails that said, ‘Mr. Fenn, if I find that chest, I’m gonna take some of it out, and then I’m gonna go hide it in another place and write another poem.’ And I … I probably had 50 people that have sent me an email that said that, and all of them are saying … over half of them … 2022 emails that I’ve responded to as a result of that treasure chest story, over half of them have said, ‘We know we’re not going to find the chest, but thank you for getting me and my kids off the couch and out into the woods.’ Isn’t that interesting? I didn’t expect that.” That takes it up to about the 6:00 mark. I’ll work on transcribing more over the weekend.

    • Hi JDA, on your calculations, you may want to include that the Rockies are extremely 3D, so each square foot is actually maybe 1.25 square feet maybe even 1.5, because it is not flat ground, and can in many places that I have seen actually be about 40 or more square feet, occupying that same flat square foot times about 5″ going straight up, but since there probably isn’t any sever climbing involved one could use about 16 sf for what an adult could reach, or a child with help 🙂 just incase the flat numbers were not scary enough.

      • As I said earlier – These calculations were made as a fun exercise – NOT SCIENTIFIC! I am NOT trying to prove ANYTHING – I do NOT need to be accurate. I was just making fun, highlighting how absurd the chase really is – but AIN’T IT FUN???? JDA

  56. FF distorts words simply, sometimes spelling, sometimes using a word that is similar in meaning to the one used, and matching it to the solve of the clue. He has warned us not to bypass any clue, that it will let you go the wrong direction. Especially when BOTG, if you think you arrived at a correct clue location, take a good look around to see if there is something else that will lead you to the next correct clue match. Imagine standing where a clue leads you, and you can see 3 blazes, follow the clues and map, don’t jump ahead. Also remember the chest has been there for more then 8 years, things change in that time. Things grow up, things fall down changing the appearance of the hiding place. That especially goes for searching in the winter. You get to your exact spot, and look quickly down, only to see a beautiful blanket of snow, drifted by the wind. What if the blaze is covered with snow and ice, what then? You would have better odds at the Casino, and it is a lot warmer.

    • Hi greg,
      If you can pinpoint the correct blaze before you go out there, you don’t care whether it’s covered with snow, or ice or anything. I suggest that you do not go on your BOTG unless you know the exact location of the blaze beforehand.
      — MK

        • JDA & Tighter foucus, I agree but if you haven’t cracked the poem then how would you know if your blaze is correct? I’ve been here since 2013 and i just found the word that is key. And i know it’s correct as it is now. Opening the poem over 85% . I wanted to go out there but my wife laid down the law. So Spring it is.
          Best of luck to all but you shouldn’t be in the Rocky Mountains during winter. FF said it right, shut off your engines and get next to a warm fire.

      • Poem says look quickly down, that doesn’t necessarily mean you are standing on the tc. How far is down, is like How deep is the hole. Are you standing on top or at the bottom of the Blaze? Blaze comes in different shapes and sizes. I do have an exact location of several blazes in the same solve, but the most likely blaze, I just located is a Thriller, and explains one of the hints ff gave to a searchers question about the blaze. Well I cant get there till June, and somebody else may find it first, but if not we will find out. Just for your reference I am pretty salty at 65 years of age. Was in the military and spent some time in the jungle. Grew up in the Ozarks, fished, gun and bow hunted, from Ontario, Alabama and the Rockys. I have solved mysteries that was thought unlikely to solve by most. That’s not to say that I never went on a Snipe hunt.

  57. FF said read each word carefully and examine every single word. I have over and over and I believe there is a good chance he is giving the location to WWWH it’s spelled out in 9 clue letters (abc) in the poem. Has anyone else said every single letter out loud? Like simple little words say more than the words alone. Like “I can keep” could mean ” I see a in keep” or “I see a N” also the very first word is “AS” could be saying “a S” or ” keep my secret Where” could be ” keep my secret W here” and the treasurer’s bold” even looks like “trees sure B old” anyway I know anyone can make anything out of nothing but I took the misspelled words out of the book and use the correct letters and 9 out of the poem and used a word maker and got a place out of 9 specific letters.

  58. Clues are in consecutive order, clues are contiguous…
    Is it possible that the clues can be slightly out of order, IF we’re told of their correct order?
    Stanza two;
    Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down, not far, but too far too walk.
    Can this be a depiction of a single location? We’re told BIWWWH is the first clue, yet, does that first clue have other clues joined, to make/create a single answer? This sentence seems to be telling of a place [ the whole sentence, and not just WWWH ].
    Ok if this can be understood as such… [ possibly 3 clues to give up a depiction of what is at the location ]… don’t we still need to know where that location is at?
    Hence, Put in below the home of Brown. The second sentence might be that location. Another-words, ‘4’ clues are ‘actually’ needed to get started, or to place a searcher in the starting position.. Or the idea of nailing down the correct WWH out of them many.
    It doesn’t matter what the references are… this is about attempting to figure out ‘where’ we need to start, and why clues 3 and 4 seem to stump all that are present at the first two clues. I mean, apparently we ‘can’ get to WW,- others searchers, more than several searchers have… right? Yet, they didn’t seem to know or understand something. Could it be they were trying to separate the first 4 clues as individual answers /individual places and not getting he idea that the first 4 clues are of the same place?

    A clue is only a clue… how many clues does it take to produce an answer…? How many clues give up a single place / point?
    Is there a law that all “clues” must be a separate, individual place?

    So “From There” may imply… from the ‘answer of the first four clues,’ line of thinking. A single point / place that all four clues refer to. Which would or could explain why early searchers didn’t know they had the first two clues correct… they went looking for clues 3 and 4, not realizing 3 and 4 are also needed to finish the answer, or full reference of the location they were at. Contiguous; sharing, joining, touching adjacent, next to… Married-?- coupled together?

    Consecutive order; following one another in uninterrupted succession or order. Only that doesn’t mean it has to be 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. It can be 4 123, 8 567 9… Just as long as the order remains the same. [ another example is 2 4 6 8 or 1 3 5 7 ~ still in consecutive order ]

    Stanza three may do the same… which leaves us with only two points with possible 8 clues…. then the last point being the blaze.
    Stanza three starts with FTINPFTM. That alone does say go anywhere, it only seems to imply depiction of a place. The rest of stanza three only describes where we may want to be at, HLnWH or point number two. Yet, there is no distance known for travel. Are we only to guess at many different possible distances? Does that sound precise, or follow precisely?

    I’ll add, again, for anyone to get from point A [WWWH] to 500′ from the chest or closer, and have a major distance of travel to get there… you must have a third clue to put the brakes on, at just the right place. Only [ as far as we have been told ] Nobody has the first three clues solved. And certainly not those early on searchers… yet those early on searcher got near the chest.. without a third clue known.

    No one has given fenn ‘the correct order’ of the clues past the first two…. Maybe they need to find the ‘correct crafted pattern’ of the ‘consecutive order’ while keeping all contiguous ~ adjoining.

    Just food for thought…..

    • Two thoughts. You could be correct, Seeker. Or, f found some way to allow the info to solve the clues in top to bottom order in the poem. I think one clue is referenced by another later clue.

      That top to bottom order of hidden info may take the finder to a well defined area quicker than some realize.

      • Fun,

        It still read top to bottom, only its understood as two places rather than 9. That’s not to say each reference is not a place, but more in lines with each place is connected in a particular order.
        Stanza 2 first sentence is three places that make up one place. [ a poor example; a building, a yard, a driveway- to be- your home] You can’t have one place missing. The second sentence is where those place that are combined as one place, can be found [ call that a street ]. In this theory; If you knew what hoB [ the street ] is, why would you be concerned about WWH.. you wouldn’t be concerned [ reverse engineering ] you would be at WWWH. Home of Brown might be where WWH is located.

        No “hidden’ info needed… just understanding what is being told. Looking for “hidden” anything is where we might be getting off track. Hence the use of codes, or parts of words, or hoping an illustration in the book shows us something, changing words from English to Spanish…etc. Or forcing an unknown distances simply because we can find something on a map that we hope might be a clue [ and that is being done in all four states ].

        The point is; can there be a “consecutive order ‘pattern’ ” needed to be followed differently than the simplistic idea of 1 2 3 4 5 6 7 8 9. Consecutive simply means the same order. Add contiguous into the equation and to have clues adjoining, touching, or even~ of the same thing { example a waterfall, liquid water changes direction from horizontal to vertical [ elevation drop or “NF” ] to horizontal once more. The waters halt their original direction and drop a short distance, only its “too far to walk” to get to the bottom. All of what the first “three” clues refer to is a waterfall with three different places of that waterfall… the top of the falls the bottom of the falls and the course of the waters. [ maybe even more than one falls ]
        All found below the HoB…. in theory… for the correct consecutive order pattern to be known, would be, 4 123. Yet all giving up one single clue reference location.. WWWH does what it does.
        Stanza 3 would have to do the same to keep the “pattern” correct… NPFTM would be where HLnWH is, or 8 567.

        If you’ve been wise and found the blaze… which would be clue 9… do this [look quickly down] to find the chest. This might not be a clue as much as instructions. In theory, you have solved the clues and now must follow the “instruction” to find the chest. Tarry scant with marvel gaze…

        In theory, the clues get you closer to the chest; the blaze gives up the chest.,, if the “instructions” is done properly.
        However, I also believe stanza three give us a critical piece of information do understand the instructions.

        Sure sure, we need to ‘start at the beginning” as we are told. We are also told we “need to ‘know’ where to start”
        Where is your home?

        • seeker-

          I’m sorry with the self imposed rules you have made….IMO you’ll never find it.

          When no specialized knowledge is needed….he isn’t excluding anything that isn’t available to everyone. (ie. you don’t have to be a doctor, engineer, lawyer or Rabbi.) but… if the solution involved a verse in the bible….everyone has access to that. IMO

          1f Billy

          • Sherif Billy ~ ‘but… if the solution involved a verse in the bible….everyone has access to that. IMO’

            “Bible verses… will not assist.”

            Just out of curiosity; Where in my post is there any indication of “specialized knowledge”?
            Seems to me, if ya need to use fingers to count to ten around here, that’s specialized knowledge.

            Are you not bringing in specialized knowledge by introducing another book?
            Exactly which book are you using, New testament? Old testament? Are you adding in the dead seas scrolls? Does the Qur’an come into play? How about the Tripitaka?

            And for the life of me.. can any one explain how there can only be one God?
            “Thou shalt have none other gods before me.”

            Doesn’t that not admit there’s more than one-?- no matter which religion you acknowledged?
            So which religion are you referencing for the solution? Which God are we supposed to ask; Hey, where’s fenn’s chest?

        • What the poem is conveying is that through out time the human race has always looked for a advance in tech. All the way back do the First Pueblo settlers. It’s all environmentally organized in the poem. How generation after generation thru time advance technology and growth is a sort of demise. We all need to learn from the past. And the treasure is hidden in a place that will humble the finder. All the clues are sorta like a teaching of our past. And where we are heading today to our own demise. Where is this place where warm Waters halt! Just makes me think about other civilizations. Imo.

    • Seeker… here is one of my favorites.
      How many clues has someone cracked? That you know of?
      “I know they’ve cracked the first two, and went right past the treasure chest. Several people have done that.”

      • Ken,
        Sound close to me, right?
        But are the first two clues all that is needed to be understood about how we “nail down” WWW?? I don’t get the idea that we “only” need to solve WWH by itself. That’s guessing in my book… we need to figure out what and where… and apparently the poem should hold that info. What I’m doing is combining clues [contiguous] to understand how to nail down the first clue.. learn it. Hopefully to “know the place for the first time” line of thinking.

        We’re told to learn WWWH, and all the info is in the poem.
        LOL ~ I can’t help to say it again, I think we’re reading the poem wrong. Every solve I have read as 9 places to stomp out. yet, all who have been near the chest didn’t understand clues 3 4. They got stump right there, and still manage to walk by the chest. My conclusion is Stanza 1 is of the same place. Stanza 3 could be the same idea, only it’s a short skip away.

        The path [ in a small location ] will not be direct for those who had no certainty of the “location beforehand” [a small destination in a huge location.]

        I also think fenn trek, was to get to the clues, then he followed the clues correctly to the blaze. the question is why ‘he’ did that “when he hid the chest”? I think he had to…
        The idea is; a small search location is his special place, and within it, he created a place to hide the chest… IF correct… he needed to discover the blaze [ something usable ] for its purpose to show us where they chest is at.

        PS, I also like ‘went by the seven remaining clue’ comment in addition to the one you just posted. It all screams the clues ‘are’ contiguous… touching, adjoin, and imo, very close… of the same place… no need to top off the car.

        • Hey now! It seems to me that if Fenn says the first clue is wwwh… and then says folks have figured that out, and that the next clue has been cracked as well… the problem is more about the next clue really. I’ve said it probably 20 or 30 times that I think the hang up call happens between the 2nd and 3rd clue. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck…is it a penguin? I’m seeing cartoons right now, so don’t mind me….

          • WhatIF you need all of stanza two, or all the clues deciphered, to ‘understand’ exactly what WWH is about?
            Or is it simply a place?

            Basically saying; we need all four clues deciphered to ‘learn’ WWH ‘correctly.’ To do that, said clues 3 and 4 might be combined with WWH, rather than an extension of travel.. or leaving the poem, idea.
            So, when all left the poem… they basically didn’t Nail Down WWH. They separated it into sections. Clues 3 and 4 might be part of WWH.

            {assuming clue 3 being NF,BTFTW and clue 4 being hoB}

          • “You’re not going to find it on Spring break, or a Sunday afternoon picnic. You’re going to have to figure out the clues. Go to the first clue, and then the clues are consecutive after that.”
            I guess you have to know where the home of Brown is?
            “That’s right.”
            “And you have to know where warm waters halt.”
            Now… I do understand your viewpoint Seeker, and have used variations of that myself. The problem is… it seems to be stretching things too much to make the ATF be consistent. I do agree that the poem as a whole unit(deciphered) will leave no doubt that the location is correct…consecutive and contiguous.

          • Ken,

            As far as the ATF are to be consistent [as uniformed]… I think a better word would be truthful [as accuracy]

            LOL, I’m sure you know, but when asked about what hoB is; he said in the wood is in the poem too [ paraphrasing ]

            So if, IF, IFFER, hoB is related to in the wood in some manner, is it a big leap to think WWH is within hoB or below it?

            All I’m saying is; there might be more to WWH than we may think [ basically the first clue only ].
            To find it, learn it, understand it nail it down, I would think that the poem would give it all up.

            I’ll take it a step further; is WWH is the place to be, couldn’t all the clues point to it?
            “Go to the first clue, and then the clues are consecutive after that.”
            LOL in order to go where?
            Lets do a quick of the run down;
            Can’t find the blaze without WWH
            Don’t have WWH stay home
            ‘Looking’ for later clues is a folly
            It’s not a matter of trying its matter of thinking.
            The path will not be direct without the location beforehand
            If you know hoB why be concerned about reverse engineering
            need to learn WWH
            ~If ya can’t find the chest go back to the first clue… why all the way back to the first clue? I mean if someone is certain of hoB or the HLnWH can’t they just go there?
            What is missing at WWH? that we need to start all over again, line of thinking…

            Might it be that everything is connected in such a way, WWH brings it all together? So hoB and HLnWH, all the clues are, or should be, connected that if one piece is missing the Jenga tower falls apart. And not so much the domino’s don’t fall correctly.

            Both games have the same result, just a different perspective on what is happening.

          • Seeker, maybe it’s in the word “follow”. If I was to follow your example, then I would need to know clue 4, (4,1,2,3). If I need to have all these clues make up what wwwh is, then how did searchers come to the first two clues and walk by the rest? It’s the job of the hints to do what you are saying. But, IMO, you are confusing solving the poem to solving clues. Is it possible that solving the entire poem gives wwwh?
            You know that ATF I always use. The poem and book, (same thing), do not in an un-subtle way say, wwwh is this or hoB is that. Nothing describes these things so the answer to them is not given in an un-subtle way. His ATF says they are not also given the answer to in a subtle way. So, how do you answer these pieces of info when there answer is not in plain site or not hidden?
            If some of the clues cannot be answered, then we have to assume that they will be found, or learned, BotG. This is why “follow” comes into play to answer some clues. We all know where we start, and I get what you are saying, but you are coming from the angle that all the clues can be solved, instead of knowing that some clues have no answer. The clues are like blazes in their own right, but only known when you have the chest. If you solve the poem, can you find the chest? of course, but if you solve the clues can you? If you were to get a piece of paper and just write the answer to the clues on that piece of paper, could you find the chest? How if the info to solve some of the clues is not given?
            I’m sure all the clues make up a basic area, and you may be right, some clues can be seen to help answer others, but as far as following clues and the solve, the solve is what your path is, not the clues. The clues, along with hundreds of different things make up your path, the poem gives that path. I still don’t get how searchers think that they can solve for each individual clue when f has said that some of them cannot be answered. He has said we will not know wwwh until we have the chest, so doesn’t that mean we will not know wwwh until we have the chest? Does anyone have the chest? So there is no way to know wwwh. You cannot solve for it, you could end up at it, and by f’s definition, that is solving the first clue, but it’s not knowing it, like he said. So we could “stumble” upon wwwh, and probably other clues, but knowing is the thing. We wouldn’t be following if we didn’t know. Searchers have come within a certain distance because anybody could come within a certain distance. Not difficult, how many clues do you think that would cover?
            I also feel some clues are close together, but like you are saying, Yellowstone being part of the Rockies, is all the clues being in Yellowstone considered close? Is that contiguous. Or is all the clues centered around ol’ faithful, close together and contiguous? What scale are we talking for clues, and on and on.

            So, is the poem being read wrong? Yes, IMO, if you are trying to solve for clues. No matter what order the clues are in, doesn’t matter at this point, solving the poem will answer that order for you, IMO. Solving the poem gives the “X” right? Doesn’t mean that you need to solve 9 different clues to get to that “X”, you have an “X”, anybody could figure out how to get there. Doesn’t mean that the clues got them there, they are just something that you will follow, in order. Once you get to that spot, that is when solving a clue, the last clue is needed. That is what f has said from the beginning. It’s the hang up of trying to solve clues that is doing everybody in, and it will continue to do so.

          • PoisonIvey;

            Here we go again – you saying that some clues can not be solved. To me that is ridiculous and makes NO sense whatsoever.

            Forrest has said: “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f nine clues – follow them in consecutive order – etc. If some of these nine clues can not be solved, Forrest would not have indicated that solving them will lead to the end of his rainbow and the treasure. It is like saying drive from home to the store that is nine blocks away, and you can but a t-bone steak – BUT – if you come to a stop sign, you have to turn around and go back home w/o the steaks. There are NO stop signs. The road is oven – all nine blocks. This is NOT an opinion Poison Ivey – it is a fact that Forrest has stated repeatedly – JDA

          • JDA, you never answer my question about the ATF when I post it, so why discuss. He has never said solving all the clues will get you the chest. He said you need to solve…you need to FOLLOW the clues to the chest. You can post ATF’s all you want, I know them all. From the time you started this, I knew them all to that point. I give you one, and never hear from you. This is NOT an opinion Poison Ivey – it is a fact that Forrest has stated repeatedly – JDA. Wrong….
            Do you know what “un-subtle” and “subtle”, actually mean? Please, if not, look it up. Then, we can discuss what you THINK you know, and what is actual. It seems I always give you what f says, and you give me what you think f said. Does f really need to come out and say, there are no answers for some of the clues, for you to finally realize how to read into what he is saying? The thing is, he basically does, but you don’t want to hear it. So why come out and post on this topic JDA? You’re not going to like the answer, and you’re not going to understand the repercussions of his statement to what is fact.

            Here, something you believe that just is not true. You said: , Forrest would not have indicated that solving them will lead to the end of his rainbow and the treasure. F has never said this. It is what you got from his statement, so to post it as fact is a problem in itself. You are reading it wrong. Not only the whole statement, but he said “follow”. So you are not only reading it possibly incorrectly, but you are not even saying what he said.

            So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.

            Tell me, does he say to FOLLOW the clues precisely or follow the poem precisely? You cannot answer that because we don’t know what he meant. So best to think of both. YOU, think one way, the wrong way. In this comment, he never says to follow the nine clues, he says the poem has nine clues, and to follow the poem precisely. Or, he does say to follow the nine clues precisely. That is the answer to this comment. JDA, less of what you think f is saying and then posting it as fact, and more of what f is actually saying.
            How far is it for us to walk?
            “Not far, but too far to walk”
            “If you are walking long distances looking for the treasure, you are walking too far.”
            What is it that we have “to walk”?

            I took two trips from my car to the hiding spot and was done in one afternoon. Done in one what? trip or afternoon?

            Don’t answer with what you think, answer with what f is saying. (that should keep you busy for the Winter). Or will keep you busy for about two seconds because you are not interested into what really is….Good luck JDA, look up subtle and un-subtle then get back to me.

          • PoisonIvey – We will never agree, so we can agree to disagree, until one of us finds her. Have a GREAT evening – JDA

  59. –Page 99 drawn by JF
    –Psalm 99

    –so hear me all and listen good (god)
    –Samuel (God has Heard)

    –Gaelic translation of indulgence (forgiveness)
    –“God will forgive me for that is what he does”–Forrest Fenn

    –silver star
    –star of Bethlehem

    Coincidence ??? Maybe….However In this upcoming holiday season…I think not..

    He is the light of the world and the way…..
    I wear the star of one of his believers….

    Sherif Billy

    • On page 99, what kind of tree did JF draw?

      To me it looks like a palm tree.

      Or maybe f is playing with us and it’s a psalm tree….Significant??

  60. Seeker–

    You are absolutely right about the bible verse quote…..

    Then I believe you forgot the quote that he says something like…he occasionally mispeaks.

    I’m sorry but the last few clues are given in Jeopardy style (solution then question) and have reference to the bible IMO

    If your having trouble, I will bring you up to the blaze. Just have Dal sent me your email.

    Merry Christmas


  61. Seeker and Ken;

    In the past, I have said that one had to make several trips through the poem. Then I cut that down to three trips – and then one. Today, I have a funny “mixed” view.

    I think that one trip will take you from wwwh to the treasure – IF you are very lucky, and a bit clairvoyant.

    On the other hand, I think that the poem will take you from wwwh to Just take the chest, and go in peace, but WITHOUT indulgence. From here, I now believe that you can start over at wwwh, but on a much smaller scale. Doing this, you will now be looking at a much smaller “destination” area.

    This second trip, the “details” of wwwh, canyon down, etc all come into much sharper focus, and lead to the exact place that Indulgence is secreted.

    This approach is similar to Seekers Big Picture, and small location idea.

    One CAN find Indulgence using just the “Big picture” approach, but it is so much easier if you start using the small location approach at some point. Just my mutterin’ – JDA

    • “Nature frequently takes away, and in doing so she always looks at the big picture.”
      “I’m looking at the big picture. A lot of people who are searching for my treasure don’t see it the same way I do.”
      JDA… I just don’t see the big picture that Fenn talks about being what folks talk about on the blogs… and relating it to a *location*.

      • It’s not what people say on the blog’s that’s important. It’s what they whisper that’s important. And the metaphor means is what we can learn from the past from the long gone.

        • William G, what you describe above is history, seems more like what do you would tell kids when they need to choose the right answer? Give em a hint.


    • Hi JDA,
      Does this mean that the chest without the treasure and the treasure are hidden at two separate locations? I can hardly believe that’s the case.
      — MK

      • I certainly would not think so. Forrest took the gold (maybe in a backpack) left the gold and probably the backpack somewhere – went back to his sedan, got the chest and went back to where the treasure was. Combined the two, secreted it, went back to his “sedan” laughing and saying, “Forrest did you really do that?” JDA

        • JDA,

          Both trips were made with the backpack. If the gold and chest weighs about the same, he most certainly would need the pack both times.

          Just Say’n

  62. Just looking at the second stanza, clue #1 Gives us a place to start, clue #2 a place to head out to, Line 3 is not a clue, but some instructions, that is qualified in Clue #3 that the Put in, is below hoB. These are like bread crumbs or stepping stones that must be followed in order. Otherwise your off the path. If your solve does not include every clue, you got nothing. Clue #1 can be a hundred different places. But there must be a canyon to go down in from there. That’s pretty easy, and only cuts out a few WWWH. Line 3, pretty much says your not going 40 miles, more like 10. So in the next 10 will be the Put in, below hoB. Put in, comes in several in different sizes, a small sandy place to launch a canoe or kayak, up to a concrete boat ramp where you can launch motorized vessels. If your canyon has no put in, or hoB, find a new starting place. The next clue hoB is the tough one, and requires lot of research and has caused lots of debate or separate thoughts. There is thousands home of Brown, and this Is exactly what ff wanted. All these things are close to each other, within 10 miles or so total from the start. If you have all those pieces fit, your on the right path.

  63. Hi all can anybody till me what is in the revised OUAW .is it a story that got left out?and is there pictures?

    • Hi Clint: the main difference is the addition of Chapter 40 — the story about Dizzy Dean. The text of that chapter is identical to that in Scrapbook 188, but there are new pictures, a stickman drawing (presumably of DD), and of course a new MY TWO SENSE postmark stamp with the date June 16, 1932. I have not yet divined the significance of that date. Dean was playing for the Cardinals then, but I do not believe he pitched on that day. (Cardinals beat Phillies, 2-0).

      • Hi Zap on that date thing FF would have been two. Is there a day posted there with the June 16 1932 . Should have been Thursday.

        • Hi Clint: there are no days of the week on any of the postmarks in OUAW (with one exception). Where the day of the week would go, it says instead “FORREST.” The lone exception is the Mummy Joe chapter, page 127. There, the postmark stamp says “THURSDAY”, “MY 2 SENSE” (note the change from TWO), and “25 APR 1937”. (April 25th, 1937, was a Sunday.)

          • “My 2 sense 4/25/1937”

            The second sense is vision. Vision is the perception of light. “He is the light of the world”.

            John is the fourth book of the new testament. What’s left?
            John 19: 25-37

            Any questions?
            Class dismissed…..

            (I always give my prisoners a bible to read while the’re in jail)

            1f Billy

      • Hi Zap I have not seen the stick man picture yet but I will bet he is pitching with right stick arm.

      • Hi Clint: yes, good prediction. (But of course that’s why I concluded the stickman was Dizzy and not Forrest.) He’s got the ball in his right hand, a mitt on his left (Dizzy was a righty), left leg in the air (hard to tell if mid-windup or mid-stretch).

    • On the surface the OUAW revisions seem insignificant and hardly warrants publishing a new book for, but buried deep is the hidden message. The revised OUAW was a convenient, ready made forum to deliver that message for all to find.
      But what do I know?

  64. Well its Sunday, figured why not check out chapter 23 in tftw a lil closer. Its not in my search area really, but Frannie WY and Warren Mt caught my eye on a map (Fran Warren). Anyone chase this rabbit yet?

  65. As ken asked as well and many others.
    Yes it does matter.
    It matters for the credibility of his ATF’s.
    Even some of the so called “safety” ATF’s seem skewed to me.

    If he used a compass, then the path should be in the woods where trees are all around a few feet from each other.
    If he didn’t use a compass then there probably is a trail or path there or in a more open area with some pines and sage.

    What in the poem tells you where to get off the beaten path that leads you to the blaze?
    I had thought of a geo elevation benchmark being the blaze where you use the elevation in telling you how many feet to the treasure from any one of the 3 points from the triangle on the benchmark but it’s feasible to remove it but it would show direction and how many feet to the treasure so it would be obvious.

    • Jake… the credibility of the ATF’s are questionable on a bunch of accounts over the years. Even the ones that seem straight forward can be interpreted differently as has been rampant for eight years. This chest first treasure second comment has been stated the other way. Two opposing comments make it useless for me until Fenn tips the scale one way or the other. The part about a compass being used or not is interesting…but I do not see any signs of one being necessary. My favorite places in the wilderness are etched into my DNA and I do not utilize one. I always carry one though. What makes you think of a compass?

      • Just throwing crap at the wall to see what sticks.
        I don’t think Fenn could have bushwhacked too far without a compass even though he knows the area.

        The big picture, 1,000 years down the road tells me it may be hidden in the trees or wood if you will. He was a surveyor and I don’t see using a compass as specialized knowledge although some may.

        The 200′ comment where he recognized pics tells me there is a clearing 200′ away from the treasure and some distinct geography or features he recognized.

        Who knows, maybe the 200′ comment is is not as accurate as he thinks.

        It’s possible that you need a compass bushwhacking through the woods and you hit multiple clearings on the way to the hidey location but where is this info in the poem or book.

        There’s not much sticking today and it starting to smell.

        • The 200′ and 500’comments seem to be an approximate.
          One time he says he didn’t know of anyone within or closer to 200′ and another time says some have been within 200′.
          For example if you road property is known at 300′ and your driveway is exactly 155′ from one side [ but never measured ] you may say your driveway is 150′ from both ends of your property. Yet that is not true if ya take into consideration your driveway is 25′ wide…. its all an approximation.
          The fact is, he knows the place like the back of his hand, and wrote the poem by memory. Yet still tells all to follow the clues precisely as told. IF a compass was needed, how did he accomplish that only from memory?

    • The bench mark idea has crossed my mind as well.
      The idea of a nice flat shiny black stone… well, I know folks who would walk off with that. But something that is meant to stay and or replaced and not be directly on top of the chest, a benchmark is a good choice. I have also thought this entire poem could be about benchmarks themselves. And the idea of nailing down the correct wwh would be critical.
      Anyhow, back to the chest… does you really think a guy who could write about a place with precision, not using a map, would need a compass to get through the clues? Maybe at the very end to find an exact direction to place the chest, but not with all the clues.
      As far as being absolute in all his comments… does it have to be exact [ which went first- the chest or the contents ] is it just not important to a solve?
      I mean, the word “Answer” hung on his site for a long time until folks started pondering big time about it… that didn’t seem to matter either, right? fenn has used the terms “walked by the treasure” and “went by the seven remaining clues,’ yet the overall idea is, searchers were in search mode as they told him ‘where they were’ and ‘their process.’ The most logical assumption is hiking / actually looking / attempting to follow clues.
      For me the compass idea [ if fenn used one ] would be in the last stage of the clues… a directional finder for the distance to have an obvious outcome. But the three point idea is good as well… it may just take a bit longer to walk out three directions. But here’s another thought. WhatIF there are three markers for three locations.. WWH, HoB, HLnWH and you meet me in the Middle?

      • I liked the benchmark idea for quite some time… I took a slew of photos of them. I gave up on that tactic. The three points was my angle in that respect.

        • I guess that is why nailing down the first clue would be so critical. One thought is HLnWH.. that would be two clues involving water and a benchmark. A third would be HOB… water? or something else. In this case I looked into to water as well. The reason being is the first clues use of ‘waters’, then ‘water’ high… I would assume hoB would have something to add to the “waterS” as well.

          Three waterS reference, and all meet in the middle of any designed triangle they create. Which made me think about the map and a clue that would not have been known of ‘until’ after printing. fenn may have seen the final produce and OKed it.. only “benchmark” add their ‘logo’ just before the printing process. That would be a big hint if true. { a triangle with a dot in the center }

          LOL now all I have to do is figure out WWH and I’m golden.

          • Forrest shortly after finding out he was sick, came up with the idea to die with the chest at a location he already knew. The he said, the only problem was that he got well. That was during the Moby Dick interview. After he got well he decided to hid the chest anyway, and went to work on the Poem and created a path to exact spot. I say he had been there a dozen time, he needed no map, or compass, just his imagination to twist the clues for the poem and marry it to a good map.

            The day he hid the treasure, he knew where exactly where he was going, he could drive straight to the, put in. He said he made two trips from where he had parked his sedan. I think he may of been purposely using the term Sedan, as easy place to get to park. He then makes one trip to take the chest, returns to take the treasure. Really makes little difference which he took first. Common sense would say the heavier of 2 loads first when your the most rested. Keep in my mind no one knew what he was doing that day. He just acted like any other fisherman. Nobody was going to pay any attention to just another old guy going fishing or hiking. Once he started hiking, where there is no man made trail, is not the easiest of walking in the Rockys. Even most animal trails are narrow, and not the best footing. Keeping in mind he said, no steep inclines. Now for a healthy 80 year old, a trek of a mile to mile an half would be a fair length. Considering the area, about an hour out, and an hour back, and repeat. a bit slower the second time, but about 4 hours total for one afternoon. That would really be a pretty amazing feet. I would of loved to been able to hear the conversation he had with himself coming and going that afternoon.

  66. I was looking at the benchmark campground and air strip talk to myself I bet him and his family flew there before. There’s Wood Creek not far from the entrance area. I sort of thought that the Chinese wall could be the blaze. But it would take forever to search under that!

  67. Well,
    I don’t think the poem can take you exactly where the treasure is.
    I think the the poem leads you to the general area where it is.

        • Jake,

          In the wood doesn’t mean a small stand of stand of trees, nor a large stand of trees. It means exactly what it says. A very small area that contains the chest in inches.

          Of course Just Say’n

          • Jake,

            I do see the big picture, I would say that you have a narrow mind of view as your line of thought only pertains to your solve and seems to be unyielding to other thoughts.

            Just Say’n from what I have seen coming from you.

          • Funny CharlieM,
            I was thinking the same exact thing about you LOL. Hahaha
            It’s all about your solve and easy to see by your comments.

          • Jake,

            I did open my mind to others thoughts and I am not fully convinced that I am correct, still searching and still open minded.

            I don’t post very often, because I’m reading and thinking, I’m looking for what is logical and trying to simplify.

            Are you?

          • Greg,

            A tree is a tree until it has fallen, it then is wood, no longer a living tree. Also along this line maybe a pile of fallen trees pushed together by water. No intervention by man, if it were it is logging. I’m thinking along the lines of being natural.

          • “… and in the wood…” Wood frequently refers to sawn and dried timbers or boards, so this could indicate that the tree is dead, dried out or fire damaged… Just a thought – JDA

          • Is that small of a place big enough for Forrest to have thrown his body upon after taking a hand full of pills? Has Forrest shrunk? 🙂 JDA

      • Mr. CharlieM-

        For the life of me, for the past two years, I could not figure out how the poem could lead you to a very small area. Then one day I had an epiphany driving to work. I suddenly understood!

        The totally crazy thing about it is that I have stood upon that pile of rocks,
        ( before I broke my tibial plateau). When my metal detector didn’t go off, I moved on….Now I know and understand. The poem does indeed lead you to a small area.

        Only a moron like me could get within 12′ and not find it. I just did not understand clue 8. Oh well, it’s not going anywhere.

        Want to help me move those rocks?

        All of course is IMO

        Where’s my deputy?

          • I agree! It would take someone brave and insightful. What is that they say about leading a horse to water….

            Best of luck to ya.
            Billy the Moron

    • If your solution is to a general area then you are hoping to accidentally stumble on the treasure chest.

    • Your point being? Its another article that is flawed and only an
      opinion of one that really has no clue.

      Just Say’n

    • So, what would you call someone who secreted a box full of gold in the Rocky Mountains for others to find? Sounds pretty eccentric to me – JDA

      • I don’t think ff as eccentric, I would say daring, bold and cunning along with wise.

        Just Say’n

      • ec·cen·tric
        adjective: eccentric

        (of a person or their behavior) unconventional and slightly strange.
        “my favorite aunt is very eccentric”
        synonyms: unconventional, uncommon
        idiosyncratic, quirky, nonconformist, outré;

        “eccentric behavior”
        antonyms: conventional

        noun: eccentric; plural noun: eccentrics

        a person of unconventional and slightly strange views or behavior.
        “he enjoys a colorful reputation as an engaging eccentric”
        synonyms: oddity, odd fellow, character, individualist, individual, free spirit JDA

    • Hi CharlieM: Fenn seems okay with the term. In the Lure Q&A, question #8: “Are you the leg(end) in the misspelling of ‘knowledge’ on your bells?”

      Forrest: “No, I’m not a legend. People have called me eccentric and I think that’s a good description. They call me a maverick. You know, I never wanted to break a serious rule, but I stretched the h*ll (altered in case blog filter doesn’t like it) out of a few.”

      Also, back in October 2013 in the Collected Works bookstore, author Doug Preston says: “I often hear Forrest referred to as the controversial Forrest Fenn. Which is quite an honor, I think.” Forrest replies: “Well, I’ve been called eccentric and I’m flattered by that because the difference between an eccentric and a kook is an eccentric has money.”

      Author Michael McGarrity expands on that thought and says, “Yeah. One of the things that allows you to become even more eccentric, Forrest, is to be a writer. Because writers, by definition, are eccentric.”

      • I wish I’d gotten that advice from Forrest before. I’ve been trying to figure out how to move up from kook to eccentric for a long time. My mistake is I’ve been trying to accomplish it using the second meaning of the word.

        2. not placed centrally or not having its axis or other part placed centrally.

        I’m now about as off-center as you can be and people still call me a kook instead of using the more accurate term, eccentric. Maybe I’ll try Forrest’s suggestion of getting rich and see if that moves me up into the category of eccentric. Now where’s that treasure?

  68. Zap, et al; what are your thoughts on the old comment from F regarding no one to his uncertain knowledge has analyzed one thing important to a winning solve, (paraphrased)? And do you think he still feels this way at this point in time?

    • The quote is as follows:
      3Q) In your memoir, The Thrill of the Chase, after the poem, you mention there are subtle clues sprinkled throughout that book. You have said you hadn’t deliberately placed these subtle hints in your book; but have you done so in any of your other writings mentioned in Question two (scrapbooks, vignettes, etc)? Or, even if maybe not purposely sprinkled in those writings of Q2, would you consider some of those to contain subtle hints too, like in The Thrill of the Chase?
      I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.” f

      “An important possibility…” Much of the poem refers or relates to water. – WWWH, Put-in (a nautical term), No paddle up your creek and Water High. There are other terms that could relate – tired and weak, worth the cold etc. Could the important possibility relate to the appearance, and disappearance of water under certain conditions? Call it “The life-cycle of water” if you will. Could following a particular stream or rivulet lead to Indulgence? Who knows, this little stream or rivulet could have started at a glacier high up on a mountain – been above ground for a distance then gone underground (Not far, but too far to walk) only to reappear,(worth the cold) and then go underground again at the hidey spot. Water is our life’s blood, without it, we would perish. Without it, earth would be another Mars – Precious, just like the jewels in the chest. More valuable than the gold coins, nuggets and trinkets in the chest. Just a possibility – JDA

      • Thanks JDA, I needed to see that other comment too, ‘not deleberatly placed’ is something I’ve been focusing on. Also Ospreys live all over but always near water! I keep thinking private property or what appears to be private property comes into play, walking along the high water mark of a navigable stream for example. I think about ‘erratics’ for possible heavy loads if an old glacier were part of the equation! IMO

      • Hi Cholly: those are all good thoughts. Glacial erratics are certainly worthy of consideration for “heavy loads.”

        Since the “analyzed one important possibility” statement was made in February 2015 (coming up on 4 years ago), I think it’s likely that enough searcher progress or evolution in thinking has happened that he could no longer claim that nobody has done so.

        From the wording of the statement, it doesn’t sound like he’s talking about a specific clue, but rather something broader — perhaps about the whole solution. It’s not this, but it could be something a little unexpected like not all of the clues are in the highlighted portion of the map. (I say it’s not this because certainly early searchers had considered this possibility.) At the other end of the spectrum, it could be that all of the clues describe a single geographic location — more in line with Seeker’s thinking, I believe. (Though again I think this is probably ruled out since such an idea was surely proposed prior to 2015.)

        • Zap, I also feel that F can no longer claim that nobody has done so. Because of his “gut feeling” comment in Jenny’s yearly 6 questions. If F thought someone would find it the following summer, then I feel someone has figured out the “important possibility related to the winning solve”.
          Why was it not found? Who knows, but I’m sure F’s gut feeling is still wavering….lol IMO…
          I’m just rambling thoughts out loud… see ya my friends…

        • Hi Clint: yep — half dozen trips over the last 3 years, plus an early exploratory (pipe-dream) search about a month after I was first exposed to the poem in the L.A. Weekend magazine. I don’t really count that one as I was on vacation in Jackson anyway, and simply stopped to check out a few places in Yellowstone while sightseeing there (e.g. Icebox Canyon, Boiling River). So while that wasn’t a serious hunt, I did at least eliminate Gardner Canyon to my satisfaction.

  69. During the Moby interview ff said, I know some people think I am weird. Which means he is mentally pretty healthy, when you can realize yourself as a bit different. Most of us like to think of ourselves as unique in certain ways, and we all should feel that way. Otherwise we all would be bots.

  70. Hey everyone! I have been MIA for weeks, as I volunteer in disasters remotely, and there have been solid disasters since 7/27. Now doing the Camp Fire (if you know any searchers around or in Chico or Paradise, here is the resource doc for evacuees, survivors: https://docs.google.com/document/d/1sfabgciPL5ci3R3sTaapHibtqkDFURF5Hc8FsetE98Y/).

    Need help with this from you smart people: Months ago, there was a discussion of how FF would know the TC was found, and there was mention of a security camera which might be at the site, broadcasting, motion activated, solar powered or big battery or something. (I have always liked that idea.) Would that thing need a wifi connection? Or could it connect via satellite somehow, and if so, how? I ask because I’m trying to help one lovely guy find his cat, who is in the evacuation zone (but right on the edge of it), and this guy had the idea of putting a security camera up pointed at a plate of food he could replenish daily, to see what pets might come by. I’d search myself like I always do, but I’m at this almost 12 hours/day, so much to do always!

    This situation is horrific for people (14K homes incinerated to the ground). And for their pets. People lost everything; trying to help them get their pets back now. Many volunteers from far away combing sites w/pics of found pets & matching them w/pics of missing ones. It’s inspiring. Thanks for any info–you can email me directly if you remember/know the answer to the above! ladyvkt@yahoo.com. THANK YOU!!!!! (and happy belated Thanksgiving!)

  71. All treasure hunters carry a dominate genetic profile that places them in the classification of eccentric. There is strong evidence that the lust for gold has egocentric as well as eccentricities that are not evidenced in the majority. Therefore, it could be surmised that there exists a few, proud, and brave treasure hunters that are true card carrying eccentrics. The proof is in the pudding. I know you are….but what am I?

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