Where Warm Waters Halt…

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This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion continue…

dal…

473 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…

  1. IMO, by the posts, there would seem to be 2 schools of prevalent thought.
    1. the outflow (cooling somewhere) of primarily recognizable geo thermal features, or change in temp or physical characteristics of
    a geographic body of water.
    2.. defined by slightly more subtitles.
    ie : rain, snow, glaciers, altitude, cooling boiler on a steam engine, tears, pee, etc.
    If Mr. F F, be straight forward, then in catagory 1. Otherwise, we had better get better at psychological thought.

  2. WWWH, Most whirlpool spas are set around 102-104 degrees, but at 212 degrees waters boils and can cause burns, I would say that is hot water. Your body temp is 98.6 degrees, so 75 degrees is cool for most people. Around 55 degrees starting to get cold, like cant stay in very long. These are just generalizations for most people. When I started my search, my thought was, where does hot or warm waters start, and started tracing from the source. Also the time of year can have affect on the water temp. The USGA keeps annual water temps month by month, and can help in your research of most rivers and lakes. FF has made it clear a damn is not what halts warm water, so you need to look for other factors. You might also keep in mind water flows downhill, but that can be tricky in the mountains sometimes, so a topo map can give you the best idea which way to follow the water down, or up. Beware when FF setup the chase, it requires learning some technics that some don’t use everyday, like different types of map reading, fishing, and researching historical info on an area. So for some it is also a learning experience. As FF has said, a person is just not going out and stumble over the treasure. So take it, this is no minor task or undertaking from understanding the clues to spotting a 10 x 10 x 6 inch box in the wilderness. The one break he did give us, he waited till he was 80 years old to hide it, and did it alone, in one afternoons time. I encourage everyone to follow the safety rules, do not take any risk that an 80 year old man alone wouldn’t take. Good luck and God Bless.

    • There was a recent temperature “poem” in the comic Frazz to assist in translating Celsius temperatures. I think it went:

      30 is hot,
      20 is nice,
      10 is chilly,
      And 0 is ice.

      • The quick conversion I learned for celsius to fahrenheit is:
        Double it and add 32.
        It works in reverse to go from Fahrenheit to celsius:
        Subtract 32 and halve it.

        • Sorta like measuring for a horseshoe. Maybe it applies to the distance of a horseshoe shaped path instead of a temperature. ( am always a day late and a dollar short on every discussion)…. turkey bloat is my excuse this time. OS2

        • Sorry I deleted the F for Fahrenheit, just thought with the numbers so high, everyone would recognize it was not C Celsius. Hope that clears up my error. Either way in the Rockys where it is 0 C or 32 F that is getting cold weather wise, add in some wind chill, plus add the snow on the ground, got to keep your hands and feet dry.

        • Dal, sorta like converting 6600 links, it was first 66000 links but people did the math and figured it was 8.25 miles. In later interviews, Fenn said 8.25 miles. So it is confirmed at least 8.25 miles, so what is the main highway north out of Santa Fe, NM into the Rockies you ask? US Highway 285…

          Does Canasta have any bearing on WWWH? Just sayin, ff is likely to teaching us how to ride a bicycle backwards…right?

          Yellow is Gray and red is too, now how does that rainbow work to show wwwh?

          TT

          • Seems odd that 32 degrees is where the first border starts of the 4 rocky mountain states, at Texas, New Mexico and old Mexico, odd too is that word OLD and right in the middle is Rio Bravo, AKA Rio Grande, so what is a Border if it does not frame something you can rely on for many, many years? Also odd that the next border which is dissected, at the same longitude, as is that highway US 285, coincidence, maybe, but it is 5 degrees north of the border and WWWH is 5th line of the poem?

            TT

      • Hi Dal: for C –> F, if you double it and add 29, you’ll be within 5 degrees F of the correct answer for any temperature from 14F to 104F. Double it and add 30 is probably the easiest math — good to 5F degree accuracy from 5F to 95F.

      • Hi ken — well, yeah, that’s the correct way. But most people are lousy at math, and that decimal place will scare half of them off right from the get-go. Doubling is something most can do in their head.

        • Yeh but… why be a slave to the obvious link, that word ‘degrees’ that’s used in temperatures and angles, instead of the math process of ‘double & add” used in horseshoe story the book where ‘little things matter.’

          • Maybe the “degrees” and angles and stuff are the hint. Freezing being at 32 degrees and boiling being 212 degrees, leaves a 180 degrees difference. Maybe it’s our playing field. From his house to the Canadian border is around 1000 miles. A full 360 degrees would be the two trips, or 2000 miles, a reference to the Rosetta stone. It’s the whole Rockies that are in play. Maybe the entire Rockies is wwwh.? Maybe that’s why so many different ones fit. Thinking that warm basically means “liquid” state. Then again, I doubt it…:)

        • OS2: except that I read somewhere (here?) that the horseshoe equation that Forrest gave isn’t correct. (I haven’t confirmed either way.) Might be worth looking it up — could be another of Forrest’s deliberate aberrations.

        • Curious about Forrest’s horseshoe equation, I decided to estimate it myself. A horse’s hoof is roughly an ellipse with a front-to-back length about 20% greater than the width. The shoe itself covers about 3/4 of the circumference of that ellipse. To first order, the full circumference for such an ellipse is:

          C = pi/2 * (L + W) * 1.002

          So 3/4 of that circumference would be:

          pi/2 * (L + W) * 1.002 * 0.75 = 1.1805 * (L+W)

          Since W ~= 5/6 L, the required length of iron bar for the shoe is 2.164 L. So guess what? For a typical hoof length front to back of 6″, the length would be 12.984″. I’d say Forrest’s rule is pretty darn good: double that 6 and add an inch!

          • Uhhhh… I appreciate your response Zap, but I think maybe you are overthinking this. ‘Double & add a little bit’ is easy enough for a kid. The ‘ask a kid’ advice is probably Fenn’s playful opposite for his ‘If followed precisely’ advice.

          • OS2: the point of my post was to show that the simple rule of thumb is backed up by the more detailed geometrical calculation. Double the length and add an inch gives an answer that is accurate to better than a millimeter!

            The real question is: what was Forrest’s reason for sharing that little pearl of wisdom? Is it a subtle hint to some aspect of the Chase? As Ken pointed out, precision is a necessity for finding that bronze box; shortcuts probably aren’t going to lead to success. The clues must be followed “precisely.”

          • I didn’t mean to ruffle any feathers…I should have said that I appreciate your testing the precise against the general rule of thumb & letting us math-tards know that they share a close match. Maybe that’s what FF admired about Eric Sloane’s thumb scape life.

        • Well Zap… If folks were to use some sort of math or numbers in their solution, especially in terms of the very first clue… would it not be very wise to be *exact*… or *precise* ? That horseshoe formula is an oddity OS2…I know a couple of farriers and should ask them sometime. In fact, that whole little story is particularly interesting.

          • Ken, All those opposites say to me…. he likes to be in the middle…. while bouncing off the curbs. Ive got to go read Alice in Wonderland again.

          • OS2… I believe you are on a similar wavelength as I am in regards to the *middle*. Thanks for sharing…

          • There is a clip in the newly posted audio from Dal that speaks to that idea…bouncing off the curbs vs. going down the centerline.

    • good advice what has warm water in it? the body, tears animals, birds human warm cows milk halted on the kittens faces; i know its out there but it is warm water in a way. sorry got to go cut titan up some steak for lunch be safe out there

        • no way no cutting on titan Titan will all way’s stay in tact, to steady the coarse. this topic of wwwh is a little batty. mind boggling to say the least the fire hole river bathing, his cabin and one other mention of it in to far to walk but none, get my mind any closer to the solution im looking for how is it possible that all the minds that have worked on this have over looked its true meaning considering the what ifs, is like using a key word when you cant mess with the poem. how is that possible i have found three real old hose shoes in the rockies searching for the tc i will save them for life they were fun finds

  3. Begin it where the warm waters halt. Oops! ,my mistake ,there is no ‘the’ in the sentence. Is thee a shadow of itself, that only exists in the peripheral;seen as a sound shadow though not written? Easy for me to think it as if I saw it there. “The” ,would make wwwh poetically easier for me.

    IMO .

  4. When my interest in the Fenn treasure started a few weeks ago via a Youtube video suggestion (now already travelled to the US for my first search), the information I started with was that five of the nine clues are already solved, four still left.

    After delving in the subject more I have realised that nothing is really solved in a way that would be waterproof and could not be denied. People are actually really still trying to figure out even the first clue, as is done in this discussion.

    No one also really knows for sure even what are the nine clues.
    There is a kind of concensus, however no one has really been able to confirm that too.

    People break each word into atoms and analyze them to death.
    While that is fine, it is interesting to see that no one actually knows anything. Everybody’s guess is equal and the individual who actually, according to Fenn have solved to first clues may not even know it and could have abandoned the whole project.

    Fenn has designed the poem well so that it can have a million plus one interpretations and when one starts with the wrong one, the rabbit hole is endless, going from brown trouts to Tia Brown of Cody.

    Reading people’s interpretations and solves is interesting and shows how no one actually knows anything. Many people are adamant that they know the deal, however still end up making tens of trips to search for something that was never meant to be searched at all.

    If you solve the poem, the answer is absolute. Your job is then to go retrieve the chest – not search for it. That is what Fenn has said, the answer is direct.

    What I understood from Fenn’s collected quotes, there is also no such thing as search season.
    If you truly solve the poem, there is only you-go-get-it-now-season. It can be during summer, autumn, winter, spring, rsin, burn or shine.

    If I would be 100% sure that I’ve solved it, there is no bear in the forest that could stop me from going to get it.

    Ofcourse due to the plethora of interpretations, it is not easy to really know when you have the right solve. One could be out on the Moon with one’s solve and still consider it to be the best and right one.

    Same with me, I admit.
    I found a new way of interpreting the poem, not using any extra information about anything. Just the poem and the map. I searched if anyone has thought of it like this before, looks like no one has or wants to say they have.

    So, I am now in the US, on the other side of the planet from my home, doing the same crazyness as others here do.

    I am not going to spend one minute searching though. The answers from the poem and the map were absolute, although it is possible thst part of the picture is still missing and I need to come here again, however everything matches in the right order and it opened to me in a new way.

    Ofcourse I would be nuts to tell even the method here until I have exhausted it and seen it through, as I think it would open a new race in this game, as really I have not read about anyone analysing the poem and the msp this way.

    I am in a hotel now eating the first real American Thanksgiving dinner in my life (being European I have seen Thanksgiving dinners only in movies), and tomorrow morning I will go to the location indicated in the map, it is a 3.5 hour drive one way.

    Sorry to write such a lengthy message, I only wanted to express my thoughts about the matter.

    Coming to the US I received Dal’s message about stopping the search. It was very sad to read, I hope Dal will find the strength and resources to continue one day.

    Happy Thanksgiving to all!

    • I am really hoping that the closest you could stay wasn’t 3.5 hours away as that suggest a very remote area and as 5,000 feet and above has snow for a lot of the search areas make sure to be well prepared as many areas of the Rocky Mountains have no cell signals (and dirt roads covered in ice require chains if they have any slope to them). Otherwise I hope you enjoy your time here and good luck! I would highly recommend coming during the warmer months of the year to search.

      • I agree regarding the snow.
        Now the road conditions should be ok, however if it changes I will turn back and come again after the snow has melted.

        Being from a country that also has a lot of snow, it takes a lot for me to turn back. The tires on the cars here though have no spikes like how in my country we have, I have already noticed that those tires function very poorly on ice and snow so I should be careful about those.

        The location where I am is what it is. It is mostly due to the flight route I took here. I look at it this way: I like driving and road trips especially in the US as I have driven here a lot (mainly in west coast though), I see beautiful scenery and take beautiful photos and video, and I drive on mostly empty roads as no one goes there camping in these temperatures.

        Again, I will not go searching, I don’t consider it a search in the way most here do.
        I am going to check a pre-determined location and it is there or it is not; both can happen.

        The map on the book is not very accurate and it is also compressed horizontally which distorts the accurate determination of location.

        I may need to look inside a 50×50 meter area just in case, however not perform a full search in the traditional sense, the kind of which I have seen people do on the videos and blogs. I will not do that as according to Fenn it is not needed – the poem will give an exact location as it has.

        I check the area, then go away. If I don’t find anything then that’s fine too. It makes me happy that I checked this out and it indicates that the picture of this is not yet full, I should go think about it more.

        • Q,
          Welcome to The Chase. You seem to have your Chase feet planted squarely on terra firma, though I do question a small number of your assertions and will address one of them.

          You mention looking inside a pre-determined 50 x 50 meter area, and I happen to believe that’s a reasonable area for a poem solution. ‘Pre-determined’ is also a key element of any solution, IMO. I will preface this by saying I’m not trying to discourage you or anyone from venturing out in any weather or season to prove a poem solution, but there are a few comments from Forrest that cast doubt on year-round ventures – for me anyway:
          – ”The mountains are not your friend when they are covered with snow”.
          – “I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.”
          – “Both the treasure and its hidden location are so vivid in my mind that I don’t need to see them with my eyes again. f”
          – “Let me give you an example: if I laid the treasure chest on top of the ground, and some weeds blew in there and covered it up, now is it buried or isn’t it?”

          Note the word “find” in the second comment, and the words “hidden location” in the third and “in there” in the fourth. On many occasions, Forrest has mentioned the chest is “hidden”, and I believe it’s also important to consider the impact of the wind (blowing natural debris and downed trees) in further concealing the the hidden chest.

          What precisely are we looking for once we arrive at our relatively small area to which the poem has led? Should we be looking for something that will conceal or hide a 10″ x 10″ x 5″ chest, or are we looking for a hidden location that contains a hidden chest? How much snow is needed to obfuscate either the hidden location or the hidden chest, and what impact has the wind had over the years in the immediate vicinity?

          As you’re aware, The Chase is all about unknowns and the challenges are significant. IMO, the snow is a significant complicating factor that CAN be avoided if we choose. So, I choose to avoid it – but that’s just me.

          Safe travels always.
          Joe

          • Hi Joe,

            The snow is indeed significant and I saw it today.

            As I almost expected, I had to turn away, there was too much snow, a snow storm was on when I got closer, and without 4-wheel drive I’d be stuck there now.

            The tires of the rental SUV are next to useless in the snow.

            So I will sit on this until the snow melts and get back as soon as it is possible regarding the road conditions.

            I had to try as soon as I figured out the solution, I think of this in such a way that it is better for me to come here and fail than to stay at home and do nothing. My problem was that I was a few weeks too late, snow got me this time.

            I am sure that the place is correct, all this is ofcourse meaningless talk until there would be a photo of me holding the chest.

            Better luck later then.

          • Q,
            Sorry to hear you weren’t able to reach your spot, but on the positive side, it’s only a matter of time.

            You’re probably aware of this, but I’ll throw it out anyway. If you use Google Earth, there are some great overlays that I’ve found quite useful for early-search (or early-retrieve) planning purposes. This link – https://www.nohrsc.noaa.gov/earth/ – provides daily snow snapshots that you can download and drop into GE.

            I like the Snow Analyses Overlays report, and the actual overlays I prefer are Snow Depth and Snow Melt viewed individually – the GE sidebar will need to be on/visible.

            Just an FYI.
            Joe

        • Q,

          I’m not downing, yet you traveled a long distance, plane fair, a motel?, rented a vehicle, dining out, all the expenses… and even thought snow would be an issue… Is there no place to rent a snowmobile, a quad, a 4×4?
          I don’t know the weather conditions where you are at, temps, winds etc. But I can step back in time and recall snowmobiling with friends from sun up to sun down many times in the Adirondacks mountings.
          It just seems to be a very poorly planned excursion to me when you already knew weather could hinder the process, yet needed to go and search because ya think ya got it correct.
          I’d be curious to know your area.. it seems to me if [assuming in good weather] young kids can get there with mom and dad a snowmobile ride wouldn’t be a problem… If allowed in that area.

          Just saying………

      • Dreamer:
        No, Q’s WWWH // /solve, being 3.5 hrs away from Q’s present loc. means little. .
        Q, is probably at a town
        where the airport Q landed is located. aka Missoula, Billings, DIA, ALB. etc.

        • ps. if HOD permits, Q is staying, on the E. side of the Rockies ,, & not much farther than 180 miles or closer to the solve area.

        • BATTY you are correct, it is only because of tje airport and flights that were available at the time I was booking them.

          The location itself is silly easy to drive to. 90% is just straight road and nothing risky.

      • It was in an email on his newsletter with the subject:”Imagine that…”

        I read it now again and looks like it was actually written by Voxpops, not Dal.

        It had Dal’s profile picture at the top, and reading it quickly on the airplane I got the understanding that it was him. Now I see that at the bottom it is signed by Voxpops and not Dal.

    • Q, ~ ‘What I understood from Fenn’s collected quotes, there is also no such thing as search season. If you truly solve the poem, there is only you-go-get-it-now-season. It can be during summer, autumn, winter, spring, rsin, burn or shine.’

      I think we need to be careful about that idea. Two comments suggest “searching” is not wise during winter and cold weather. The one comment; paraphrasing, If you “know” where the chest is, you ‘probably’ can ‘retrieve it’ in any weather… That is not the same as ‘searching’ in any weather. It seems to imply the ‘spot’ where the chest is at, can be reasonably safe to ‘retrieve’ pick up the chest… getting there is a horse of a different color.

      The other comment, paraphrasing, was just mentioned by fenn; in his mind the search season is over. { you can look up both comments on this blog to review your self }

      “… All of the Rockies north of SF are now unsearchable to my way of thinking. f-” Oct 15th-18

      So lets look at it another way; fenn said he followed the clue when he hid the chest… right? well, if he feels the search season is over or unsearchable, why would you dismiss that? … even if you feel you have the correct solve.

      • I believe that it is able to be recovered in any season. I also believe that keeping searchers safe is extremely important.

        How do you find the last Where Warm Waters Halt section? Just got home from Thanksgiving Dinner and wanted to catch up, only to find that there is a new one. Thanks

          • Thanks Idle,
            I didn’t go down far enough to find the archives.

            My hidey spot is smaller than a city block. Now that I have the confirmation that F spent a lot of time around there, I have to schedule another trip. This year is out because of many planned commitments including my daughter’s wedding 2 weeks ago (that depleted a lot of funds LOL) and a family trip to Arizona at the end of the year.
            I wish I could just go out there and stay until I found it or searched enough to say I am wrong, but I don’t have that kind of time. I would never have narrowed it down as far as I have if I hadn’t already had BOTG 3 times, but those trips were only for 3 days at a time. That was 5 years ago, and I wasn’t brave enough on those trips and was not that confident in my solve. I’ve done a lot of research since then. A grid search is not as easy as it may seem. There are always complications.
            After concluding what I believe is the wwwh, a map shows me that it is only a mile from my spot. The map also gives me an actual name for “IT” as in Take IT in the canyon down. It is a very heavily traveled, named trail.
            The thing that confuses me is “Title to the Gold.”
            I guess that will be answered last.

            All just my opinion. It’s late. Talk to you tomorrow.
            Happy Thanksgiving!

        • Luckydog,

          On the right side of every page you’ll see a list… “searcher discussions” will have all the past topic pages / bloggers postings to review as you wish.

        • Based on all that Fenn has said, I believe so as well.

          I am not going to an impossible place, there is actually a regular road nearby. A kind from where an 80 year old man could walk to the place a couple of times in an afternoon.

          That detail is also what I have considered strongly. If the location would be too far from a road where one could simply drive to, it is most likely incorrect location.

          Fenn has said that there are no human trails where the chest is, which also matches to this location I am going to check.

          There can however be a road for cars within reasonable distance for an old person to walk.

    • Hi Q, “spikes” in the U.S. are called “studs” or more to the point, “studded snow tires”, and one can get them easily, if they owned the car, (if you were staying closer to the snow conditions one would encounter, there may be some rental shops that have cars/suvs with studded snow tires on them), I have two sets of tires, I put the studded snow tires on in the winter. take them off in the spring.

      Forrest has indicated many times that there is a season in which one should search, and seasons when one should not search, but you are correct if you are not “searching”, if you know “precisely” then one can retrieve the TC in any weather, (if prepared for that condition/weather) That could mean that one would need to take a far different method of “getting there” than what Forrest took, and may even take far longer than “one afternoon”.

      and lastly, I hope you had a very good Thanksgiving Dinner to remember the U.S. by, it is a strange tradition, but we’ve adapted it to be an excuse to bring friends/family closer together in just the right amount of time exposure so that same family/friends also doesn’t drive us crazy.

  5. I hope everyone had a nice Thanksgiving. We as Americans have a great deal to be thankful for.
    Can we agree that either FF either left his home in SF or in Yellowstone in one afternoon did the hide? If it is Yellowstone then we all kinda know where WWH. It is not so much that i don’t think it’s there it’s just really too far for me to drive unless i get a partner. I’m a widow and don’t really want to go out there alone. So i have to concentrate my efforts on S CO or N NM. For now. I will say that i think it’s helpful that i don’t get to do much online searching except in the winter when i am not so busy. I think it would do everyone good to get away from the poem for a few months with fresh eyes.
    If it was FF’s intent to give people a simple pleasure i think he succeeded. Just don’t get consumed with it….Great time to do it is on a bad weather day when nothing else can be done. I think he wanted people to get out in nature. It is disappearing quickly.

    • Hi Mosby, I would have to disagree with your interpretation of one afternoon. Let me illustrate by an example that satisfies the ATF comments. If you were on a business trip in which you were driving to eight locations in eight different days, and drove 4000 miles in those eight days, and on the last day, you got up in the morning and drove 3 hours, parked your car at “noon”, then spent one afternoon making two trips from your car back and forth to some spot. Then you could have started in just about any state, and ended in any of the four states and completed the fact of making two trips (from your car) in one afternoon. Did that take eight days? one day? or one afternoon? it does not matter, it still satisfies the ATF comment. So put back in all the rabbit holes that this implies.

      • Do you think he was still working much when he was ill? I don’t know. I also don’t know if they keep a second home anywhere. You may be right. I was just thinking if I weren’t feeling well I wouldn’t want to be running around too much. Stay close to home or my home away from home or even in a hot spring somewhere. Which sounds pretty good right now.

        • Mosby;

          You MAY be confusing things. Forrest HAD cancer, and beat it. He THEN spent about 15 years working on the poem. From what we know, Forrest would appear to be feeling fine when he secreted Indulgence – JDA

        • I believe he hid the TC 15 years after he had fallen ill, and at least 10 years after he was fully recovered. (you may have confused the order of events)

          He was not working at the time of hiding TC, the “eight day” example was only an illustration of the possibilities.

          He was however going to different board meetings, and traveling an amount I would consider more than a retired person normally does. in one case he went to a board meeting 4 times a year to Cody every year, and that was at about the same time he “hid” the TC. That is not to mention other places he traveled to, that is just what I know he did as an illustration of the possibilities of what a healthy 79/80yr old was doing… and still healthy person at 88 can do.

          • Hi Writis: Forrest was diagnosed in 1988, so if you believe he hid the chest 15 years later, that’s only 2003 — at least 6 years before he actually hid it.

          • Zap is right Writis. Here’s the timeline that matches his comments:

            Jan. 1988- diagnosed with cancer

            Dec. 1988- removed, given 20% chance to live 3 years. (which means every 20% equals 9 months).

            Sept. 1992- His fate hits bottom, he got an idea of the chase.( 45 months from the Dec.1988 date or 0%)

            June -July 1994- This date can be debated, and is MY assumption, but this is when he “got” cancer. He stated it was 15 years after he “got” cancer, using the word “got” as when he was under control of it, or in remission, and not when diagnosed.

            June-July 2009- His first trip to hide the chest, 15 years after he “got” cancer.

            The rest can be debated, (second trip, same or different day, etc…). I am sure that at 79 years old, he was fit enough to basically go anywhere. You are right, he is active for his age, an early riser his whole life, I wouldn’t underestimate anything when thinking about his health and ability to do something so important.

          • PoisonIvey: in June/July 2009, Forrest was 78, not 79. Both trips (contents one trip, treasure chest the other, order debatable — he has said it both ways) occurred on the same afternoon. Suggesting that the two trips occurred on different days is stretching a tangent.

          • yup, see my mistake, add a year to my ’94 and my ’09, hopefully searchers know what I mean. The point is when he said “got” searchers think that is when he was diagnosed, which would be wrong, not a big deal anyway.

            ” occurred on the same afternoon.” Where did you get this info. Are you 100% sure? Then how did he go down, up, down again? Followed all the clues, no other way? no shortcuts? Can’t be done that way Zap. He can’t drive to clue 3 and park because his second trip would leave out the first two clues. I give it not much weight because really means nothing except maybe the idea of walking all the clues. But if we are to go by what he says, then it could not have been done on the same day. I’m sure everyone will put their spin on it, but that’s what f said. Cannot feud it. Done in one trip or done in one afternoon? We don’t know 100%. It is more a stretch to think one afternoon, goes against a couple ATF’s just in time alone possibilities. Best to see both possibilities. It’s like asking how far we have “to walk”? How many think it is a long distance? But, that is what f has commented on, it being a long distance. But, to save argument, not a big thing. I find his comment about the bells being found in the year 12016 a lot more interesting. Another Bighorn Medicine Wheel hint.

          • Zaphod73491, I agree, I remember reading Fenn say that he had to make two trips to and from his car in one afternoon, because the overall weight of the contents was too much for him to carry in one go, so he had to carry half and half.

            I was thinking also if I find it from the exact location where the poem points to, I need to have some good method to tie the chest on my backpack to carry it out. Carrying that weight by hands would be tiring pretty quick. So I take with me paracord and belts for tieing luggage.

            Fortunately the distance to carry is not much, however between the location and the car is forest ground which makes it harder to walk, it is not like walking on pavement.

          • Q
            A stick gurney would do the trick. Just as long as no one is around and you want to do it in one trip.
            A 50 foot spool of kite string is all you really need, or rope.

          • Hi Q: since your plan was to be wearing a backpack, is there a reason you can’t just put the chest inside that backpack (with padding to keep the sharp corners from jabbing you in the back)? It’s only 10x10x5″ — would fit easily in just a daypack.

          • Reply to PoisonIvey, regarding Forrest’s two trips to hide the treasure occurring on the same afternoon.

            “Where did you get this info.”

            Mysterious Writings Q&A on 6/19/2014.

            “Are you 100% sure?”

            Yes. Forrest was crystal clear, IMO, in his reply to Joe:

            Joe: “Also, you’ve mentioned on multiple occasions that it took two “trips” to secret the chest and contents to a very special place. Perhaps someone has already asked this, but I’ve not found an answer yet posted or video recording that contains an answer. Forgive me if this is redundant, but were both trips made on the same day/date? Not to be anal, but that would be one spinaroo of the giant ball we call Earth that constitutes a single 24-hour day to its humble inhabitants. Thanks so much. Kind Regards, Joe”

            Forrest: “Joe, you make this thing so complicated. Reminds me of the reason I don’t like meetings. I hope you don’t belong to a PTA someplace. I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.f”

            “Then how did he go down, up, down again?”

            Who says he did? I certainly don’t.

            “Followed all the clues, no other way? no shortcuts? Can’t be done that way Zap.”

            Sure it can.

            “He can’t drive to clue 3 and park because his second trip would leave out the first two clues.”

            Forrest said he followed the clues in the poem. Nowhere has he said he physically followed them, walked all of them, or physically followed all of them TWICE. People who think so are reading between the lines.

            “It is more a stretch to think one afternoon, goes against a couple ATF’s just in time alone possibilities.”

            I’d say it’s FAR more of a stretch to think he’d risk two separate trips on different days — doubles the chance of his absence being noted.

            “It’s like asking how far we have “to walk”? How many think it is a long distance?”

            Certainly not me.

            “But, that is what f has commented on, it being a long distance.”

            No — he has specifically cautioned searchers against walking long distances:

            “A polite-like email from Kristie, who admits to being a desk person, prompts me to say that if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking too far. f”

            In case that isn’t clear enough, there’s this:

            “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go. Don’t search anywhere an 80-year-old man could not carry a heavy backpack.”

            And yet still there are searchers who walk several miles — one way — to their candidate hidey spots, often with hundreds of feet of elevation gain. Mystifying.

          • Zap ~ ‘Forrest said he followed the clues in the poem. Nowhere has he said he physically followed them, walked all of them, or physically followed all of them TWICE. People who think so are reading between the lines.’

            That is semantic at best. Searchers have been at the first two clues and walked past the chest.. fenn never said they drove by some, right? But your scenario they all could have because fenn neglected to say it.. ?

            ‘Followed the clues’ is just that… he did it when he hid the chest…[ stated {in another comment} it was the most direct route from the chest back to the car… the same route he took to get to the chest ] before the **poem** was complete (completed?). The poem contains “9 clues”.. so he’s talking about all those clues IN the POEM.
            The poem is useless without the chest in it location, so that was the last thing needed to completed the poem. [or possibly the blaze as well]

            But OK, lets say fenn did drive to the next clue after the first two and went to the hid.
            How the heck did others do the same without a third clue deciphered?
            You need the next clue or two correctly deciphered and properly executed {precisely} to bring you to a place, yet no one has given fenn the correct clues beyond the first two.

            LOL it doesn’t matter if it fits your solve… it can’t happen without three clues at the minimum. With all the comments that; searcher were at the first two clues and walked past the chest… there is no logic that fenn drove a couple of clues at first and then walked the others, and still say he “followed the clues when I hid the chest” and not mean All the clues.

            fenn also stated an 80 yr old is not going down and up a canyon… yet still, you have fenn driving the canyon. Could it be that no one needs to “take it in” {go down} any canyon?

            Hypothetical scenario’ searchers are at the first two clues… lets call them; WWWH and at a canyon. What happens next?
            Some walk around, and maybe go back the way they came in, other leave by a different route, maybe to travel into the canyon, and they walk right by the chest not knowing how close they were.

            Here’s a question for all… Why does anyone need to park or drive right up to WWH?
            Can’t they park a 1/2 mile, give or take, away from WWH [because that might be as close as a vehicle can get] and needs to walk/hike ‘to all’ the clues?.. then walk back to the car that same 1/2 mile… the most direct route to get to the clues and the hide…and back to the car.

          • Seeker wrote:

            “Searchers have been at the first two clues and walked past the chest.. fenn never said they drove by some, right? But your scenario they all could have because fenn neglected to say it.. ?”

            We are not privy to what those searchers shared with Forrest. They could have been driving, could have been walking, could have been doing a bit of both. Makes no difference to me. If my solution is correct, most anyone who solves two clues will come within 500 feet of the treasure at some point. It’s almost unavoidable.

            “‘Followed the clues’ is just that… he did it when he hid the chest…[ stated {in another comment} it was the most direct route from the chest back to the car…”

            Of course. We’re not in disagreement about that. We differ only in that you think he walked all the clues, and I say he didn’t. It is not a resolvable disagreement unless Forrest enlightens us beyond what he has said so far, or the chest is found.

            “But OK, lets say fenn did drive to the next clue after the first two and went to the hid. How the heck did others do the same without a third clue deciphered?”

            They didn’t. In my opinion, anyone who got within 200 feet of the chest could have done so solving only the first two clues, and blown everything after that.

            ” … it can’t happen without three clues at the minimum.”

            What can’t happen? Getting within 200 feet of the chest? I say nonsense.

            “fenn also stated an 80 yr old is not going down and up a canyon… yet still, you have fenn driving the canyon. Could it be that no one needs to “take it in” {go down} any canyon?”

            Yes, I say he drove down the canyon. You cannot prove me wrong using anything Forrest has written, but likewise I cannot prove I am right based on those ATFs. In the absence of additional information, it is useless to debate this point.

            “Hypothetical scenario’ searchers are at the first two clues… lets call them; WWWH and at a canyon. What happens next?”

            I’ll tell you what happens. They have absolutely no idea how to solve the third clue so they either drive too far, or not far enough and so fail to park at the correct put-in spot. It’s no more complicated than that. In their meanderings chasing bad clue answers, a few could blunder into the right general area but be completely oblivious to its significance.

            “Here’s a question for all… Why does anyone need to park or drive right up to WWH?”

            You know my answer. Parking there would not be wise.

            “Can’t they park a 1/2 mile, give or take, away from WWH [because that might be as close as a vehicle can get] and needs to walk/hike ‘to all’ the clues?.. ”

            Yes — that’s exactly what they can and should do, provided they can figure out the correct place to park. But they ain’t gonna figure that out without solving that 3rd clue.

          • Zap, you post answers that say nothing. Are you a politician? That ATF says nothing, of course, but it is in YOUR OPINION and not f’s. So who cares.

            “Then how did he go down, up, down again?”
            Who says he did? I certainly don’t.
            “Followed all the clues, no other way? no shortcuts? Can’t be done that way Zap.”
            Sure it can.

            You have separated the content. In the way you have not given an answer, it’s like I’m saying you would not follow clues, I have never said that. I put them all together. You cannot go down, up, then down again, and follow all the clues, with no shortcuts, ON THE SAME DAY.

            I’d say it’s FAR more of a stretch to think he’d risk two separate trips on different days — doubles the chance of his absence being noted.
            Again, what you think and not important

            “It’s like asking how far we have “to walk”? How many think it is a long distance?”
            Certainly not me.

            Because you don’t follow what f is saying. His ATF and line in the poem says what we have “to walk” is long distances. You are wrong.
            No — he has specifically cautioned searchers against walking long distances:
            “A polite-like email from Kristie, who admits to being a desk person, prompts me to say that if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking too far. f”
            In case that isn’t clear enough, there’s this:
            “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go. Don’t search anywhere an 80-year-old man could not carry a heavy backpack.”

            Yes, that ATF. I don’t want to know what you think, I go by what f is saying.

            Please define “several”, try to use actual words from the dictionary and not what you think.

            Was that “heavy backpack” in both trips? And, why would he need a backpack if he was driving supposedly? If he was walking, then wouldn’t he then need a backpack? If he’s not going far, to make it easy on himself, why a backpack? Just drag the thing, or put into something and drag, whatever, easier. The fact he says backpack should enlighten you, but then again, doesn’t fit YOUR solve right?

            “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go. Don’t search anywhere an 80-year-old man could not carry a heavy backpack.”
            And yet still there are searchers who walk several miles — one way — to their candidate hidey spots, often with hundreds of feet of elevation gain. Mystifying

            Lol, please redefine several…?

            And, if you need to take two trips from your car to the hiding spot, wouldn’t you then need to be parking at the first clue? Since all clues must be followed? THERE ARE NO SHORTCUTS? And, then wouldn’t you be walking?
            I guess not if it doesn’t fit YOUR solve. So go ahead, twist all you want, I’ll stick to what f is saying and not what a searcher with blinders on thinks.

            On a side note, when is Aaron getting us all together so you can actually see me laughing when you try to explain something? Don’t take everything the wrong way Zap, it’s just not really that important in what WE think.

          • Seeker, that is why wwwh may be a larger area, consisting of many hints to why that is the place.
            Can’t they park a 1/2 mile, give or take, away from WWH [because that might be as close as a vehicle can get] and needs to walk/hike ‘to all’ the clues?.. then walk back to the car that same 1/2 mile… the most direct route to get to the clues and the hide…and back to the car

            They sure can, it only fits that a searcher must be walking all the clues. You park where you start, or wwwh. This could be a town or city, just makes it wwwh because it is where you start. And like you said, maybe to stay on your path, you have to walk because no motorized vehicles are allowed. And, to follow all the clues and keep the ATF’s in line, you will walk all the way back to your car, just to follow all the clues again. No shortcuts. That is exactly correct, IMO. But don’t try to explain that because if it doesn’t fit a solve, then f must have meant something else. To quote Zap, “it’s mystifying”.

            Lol, “he never said that you have to follow all the clues in both trips!” Uhhhh, yes he did. “Oh, well doesn’t fit my solve so he must mean something else that I don’t know of, because I really don’t know what is going on”. Lol, here it comes Seeker, all the personal thoughts of what f said and not what actually f said. Ahhh, Winter, more Bailey’s in the coffee needed.

          • PoisonIvey: “Zap, you post answers that say nothing.”

            On the contrary, they are full of facts. You just choose to put blinders on when reading anything that runs contrary to your thoughts. I think Forrest was exasperated by the specificity and redundancy of a simple question that he felt he’d already answered many times — thus the PTA ribbing. I think Forrest could say “I parked the car at 1 pm. I walked to the hiding place with the treasure chest contents, hid them, walked back to my car, grabbed the chest, and walked back to the hiding place. I put the loot in the chest, closed it, secreted it, walked back to my car and laughed out loud. I was on the road again at a quarter to four — less than 3 hours after I parked” … and you would still find a way to say he never said it all happened in the same afternoon.

            Your next complaint is dumbfounding, so let’s make another attempt. I’ll keep all your words together so you don’t think I’m picking and choosing what to answer:

            “You cannot go down, up, then down again, and follow all the clues, with no shortcuts, ON THE SAME DAY.”

            I’ll use an example. Let’s say for the sake of argument that Forrest’s canyon is Madison Canyon. That is NOT a long canyon. It is also flat, flat, flat. There is no gaining or losing of significant elevation — you can go up and down that canyon all day long without breaking a sweat. If all the clues are in that canyon, I see no impediment to making two round trips in an afternoon. Where’s the difficulty?

            Moving on:

            “His ATF and line in the poem says what we have “to walk” is long distances. You are wrong.”

            Sorry, but it is you who are mistaken. And that’s because you don’t know the answer to the third clue “Not far, but too far to walk.” But then, you don’t believe any of the clues can be solved, so I see no reason to argue the point with you.

            “Was that “heavy backpack” in both trips?”

            Yes. Loot once, chest once. Forrest said so.

            “And, why would he need a backpack if he was driving supposedly?”

            Really?? You can’t be serious??

            “If he was walking, then wouldn’t he then need a backpack?”

            DUH.

            “If he’s not going far, to make it easy on himself, why a backpack?”

            Convenience and stealth. You don’t think carrying the thing in the open or dragging it along isn’t going to raise the eyebrows of passersby, fishermen, hikers or whoever?

            You seem hung up on the word several, thinking that its meaning has somehow eluded me. But the ATF is not a directive for successful recovery of the chest — it is a safety warning. Several hours is more than two hours — but not much more — and in the context of Forrest completing the deed in an afternoon, it’s safe to say that it’s no more than 6 hours. But Forrest isn’t telling you that to find the chest YOU will need to walk for 6 hours; he’s telling a would-be searcher that if he or she is walking that long or longer, their solution is crap.

            “And, if you need to take two trips from your car to the hiding spot, wouldn’t you then need to be parking at the first clue? Since all clues must be followed?”

            I’m not going to go over this point again. Read my response to Seeker.

            “On a side note, when is Aaron getting us all together so you can actually see me laughing when you try to explain something?”

            Aaron and I have already gotten together once in San Diego and had a fine time. I think you’ll find that he takes me pretty seriously.

          • Zap, ZaP, ZAp, ZaP, really love the fact that you actually think it was done in one afternoon, and that is it. A man, that has woken early, and I mean early, his entire life, on this day of importance, went out at noon, a time when people would be around, and hide everything, knowing that people do come around the area at any given time, either leaving a 20,000 dollar chest in the car at one point, or 2+ million dollars worth of treasures. I guess if he is supposedly close, like you say, this 80 year old man could run back to his car if he sees anyone coming around. Of course him saying that HE would not go down, up, then down again makes no difference since your example is on flat land. In that case, I guess he did, right. Makes him a liar, but he only tells the truth 85% of the time, right?

            I also will not get into how far we have “to walk”. He said in the poem the answer would be “too far”, and in an ATF he said that “too far” is a long distance. But you spin that because it needs to be in one afternoon, right?
            I guess I must need the answer to the third clue, since mine must be wrong, lol. Okay.
            Convenience and stealth. You don’t think carrying the thing in the open or dragging it along isn’t going to raise the eyebrows of passersby, fishermen, hikers or whoever?
            Oh, but starting this thing in the afternoon wouldn’t raise an eyebrow, would it? Lol, you missed the context of what I was saying.
            I hear a lot of your ideas in your post, not what fenn is saying. I can read, really. I see what he is saying, really, I know that things can be construed many different ways. And, in reading the book, I see when he wants the reader to know something, he will say it, when he wants a possible way to read into what he is saying, he doesn’t tell. The thing is, you don’t see anything but your way, only. THAT is the recipe for failure.
            You say I don’t think any of the clues can be solved. Really, when have I ever said that? Again, you don’t read unless it is your idea. Since you or JDA have a problem reading, all you need to do is tell me how to solve wwwh, hoB, and the blaze in an “un-subtle” way. Because I don’t see the obvious written by f of those certain pieces of info. In fact, I know your answer, to side step and tell me to figure it out, right? The point being that it is obvious that the answers are not given in a “un-subtle” way. Nothing says wwwh is exactly here or there. Or the blaze looks like this. Nowhere, fact. So the answers have to be hidden, right? They must be figured out, and the answers are hidden within the poem, which would qualify as being “subtle”, which, f has said he has not done that. So not “subtle” and obviously not “un-subtle”. But of course, somehow, f must be lying with this comment as well, right? Or maybe it doesn’t fit your solve, so it must not be important. keep picking and choosing. Keep thinking that an early riser like f just woke late this one time to hide a chest within an afternoon when people are out and about. Keep twisting his ATF’s to fit your solve. And keep thinking that he gave the answers to wwwh, hoB, and the blaze when he said he didn’t. Because all the work that you have done cannot possibly be totally wrong, could it? You are always right, and everyone else is way wrong. Sorry, but I need to get to my car, left a chest worth 20,000 dollars in it and don’t want it to be stolen. Of course, I’m not 80 and could run after them, so I got that going for me. Really, mystifying. I still don’t get how f, taking two trips, and following all the clues both trips, no shortcuts, drove passed the first two clues, and went back to the first clue when his car would be at the third clue or later. So, to understand, he drove to at least the third clue, parked his car, went and hid something, walked back to his car, passed his car so he could go to the first clue, came back to his car, got out the remaining items, when and finished up, walked back to his car laughing, and left. Or, when he got back to his car the first time, got in his car, went back to the first clue, so he could follow all the clues again. And wait, what? That is ridiculous. But of course, he didn’t go back to the first clue on the second trip, he took a short cut, because he was familiar with the area, right? But the ATF, when asked that precise question, f’s reply was to follow all the clues, no short cuts, must have been when he was in his 85%, 15% mood. Lol, you crack me up So. Cal.
            Not serious enough Zap.

          • PoisonIvey: we’re done. I’m not going to waste any further time with anyone who is illogical.

          • Poison;

            You seem to be the one who want everything to match YOUR solve, despite logic not being in your favor.

            If Forrest drove to a spot. parked his car and donned a backpack with the gold and trinkets in it, who would take notice? Probably no one. The chest is under a blanket in the trunk, who would want to break into a car to see what was there?

            I can’t count the number of times I have left my car in a parking area in the mountains and NEVER had it broken into.

            Forrest, with his pack full of goodies walks “not far” (let’s say between 1/2 mile and 1 mile (just for grins) to his Poem area (A small area – maybe no bigger than 1/4 mile X 1/4 mile. He “Begins” it at wwwh, takes a small canyon down, NFBTFTW etc. all nine clues, and ends up at the Hidey Place. Looke around – sees someone – waves and says howdy. The stranger leaves, Forrest hides the pack and goes back down the mtn.

            Unlocks his “sedan” – opens the trunk and donns a second backpack that has the chest in it. Wash, rinse – repeat – following the exact same path as he took on the first trip.

            Puts the “goodies” in the chest, secrets the combined goofies and chest. Puts one pack inside the other and goes back down the mountain – ALL IN ONE AFTERNOON!

            What is so hard about that possible scenario? Nothing that I can see.

            I am sure that the final Hidey Place is somewhat secluded – Not in very close proximaty (sic) to any human trail, so Forrest was not likely to be seen even if someone were to happen upon the trail.

            Sure makes sense to me – and probably to most people Charlie – Just a possible way Forrest did it – JDA

          • Zaphod, you are right about fitting the chest in a backpack. I don’t really have much need to carry anything at such a short distance from the car anyway (I understand now why Fenn said one needs only a flashlight and a sandwich; no need for more in such short distance). So my backpack would be pretty much empty. The chest does fit my 5.11 24h backpack exactly, even if the height is 8″ instead of 5″.

          • Poison, I don’t know if we have quite enough people to warrant a SoCal meetup just yet. And like Zap said I do take him seriously. He is a fun, smart guy. I don’t think we should take any chaser so seriously that it gets us worked up though.

  6. To halt is to come to a full stop. It’s not permanent stop- ust a stop for a moment…and one would never bark it to one person…it’s to a bunch of people following a command. If one is in “hot water” one is in serious trouble, which implies if one is in warm water the trouble isn’t as bad…so I’ve come to the conclusion the line refers not to actual water at all but rather a …..

    • Hi Bohuslaner,
      IMO water is water. I think if you start adding some other meanings to the word not intended by Fenn, you are messing with the poem as Fenn warned. Just try to interpret water as water, simple and straight forward.
      — MK

      • I would agree with you if it was water singular- but it’s not. It’s “half” and “water”; a command to a group and a plural for something typically singular. IMO, this is a very specific thing-

        • I actually think every line is like this- it’s not messing with the poem whatsoever, just simply interpreting the words in an abstract, yet perfectly logical manner

  7. I have to side with Zap!

    The Put In is where you park. There is no sense in going back to wwwh and into the canyon down again. We all see things in the way that fits our solve, so they are just our opinion.

    One question for everyone. I don’t remember F saying that he carried the chest on one trip and the contents in another trip on the same afternoon. I know he said 2 trips on the same afternoon, but please give me a link where he specified what he carried on each trip.
    I have another theory.
    Thank you

    • Luckydawg – Here is your link : lummifilm.com/AUDIO/kvsf2015.mp3

      “It was heavy enough that I made two trips to jide it. I took the gold in one time and then I took the treasure chest in the second time. (23:44) (5/24/15) Hope this helps – JDA

      • So, which did he take first, the gold or the chest?
        I’d swear his ATF’s are meant to confuse.
        One time he says the chest another he says the gold.

          • This is what I think.
            If he left the $2 mil in the sedan for the second trip, then that would tell me where he parked is a more secure place than the hidey spot.

            I would think he would take the gold first and risk the chest if the vehicle was compromised.

            I would love to know if he used a compass at any time when hiking to hide the treasure.

          • This reminds me of Answers vs. Answer… does it matter?

            Jake, I would think fenn has had many things of great value in his vehicle at other times as well.
            However, you would think the contents went first.

            What that says to me is, the hidey spot is probably not a dug hole in the ground. It’s more than likely a small place that is very concealed by a passerby, and large enough for a body.

            But you brought up an idea I have pondered; the use of a compass. We are told if we can find the blaze the distance would be obvious, yet told, or implied, the blaze doesn’t seem to ‘point’ in a direction… so do we have something in the poem that may indicate we have a direction we need to look at? And is a compass needed for that task…
            Does look quickly down mean; due south? Not just southwards, but precisely south.

          • As ken asked as well and many others.
            Yes it does matter.
            It matters for the credibility of his ATF’s.
            Even some of the so called “safety” ATF’s seem skewed to me.

            If he used a compass, then the path should be in the woods where trees are all around a few feet from each other.
            If he didn’t use a compass then there probably is a trail or path there or in a more open area with some pines and sage.

            What in the poem tells you where to get off the beaten path that leads you to the blaze?
            I had thought of a geo elevation benchmark being the blaze where you use the elevation in telling you how many feet to the treasure from any one of the 3 points from the triangle on the benchmark but it’s feasible to remove it but it would show direction and how many feet to the treasure so it would be obvious.

        • Jake, not only does he confuse us with this fact but also says that the chest contains 20.2 troy oz. of gold in one of the statements and in another he says 22.2 troy oz. of gold. Which is it? I think he is just getting himself confused. At his age and as time goes on and with so many interviews you can see how he can lose track of what he has said. I wouldn’t take any of the ATF statements to heart, just use the poem and book.

    • Luckdog,

      To get to the “put in” don’t you need to know that clue [deciphered] to get to it?
      If the line PIBTOB is your clue #2 .. ok I can’t argue that.
      But if its clue 3 or 4 there seems to be a problem. fenn has stated for a long time; no one has given him the correct orders of the clues, other than the first two.

      To go from clues 1 and/or 2 to get to the put in, you much have clue 3 or 4, right? [ if driving any distance is involved ] you need the deciphered clue for the put in, to stop at it.
      Example; you drive to WWH, you find the canyon to drive down, you now need to know how far to drive and were to stop… IF… that is correct, you need clues 3 n 4 to accomplish that task.. stopping at the put in. How, how can that be done without having more clues deciphered in order?
      I mean, even if you drive an unknown distance [ lets say you won’t know the true distance, because all you need is to know where to stop ahead of time ] you still need clue 4 deciphered to stop at it.

      Note; this is assuming your clues are in order of;
      wwwh ~ 1
      canyon down ~ 2
      NF.. drive ~ 3
      Put in. ~ 4

      Again, we have been told no one has told fenn anything correctly in order, but the first two clues [ almost 8 years ]. It’s impossible not to have clue 3 and/or 4 solved in this scenario to get to the put in, and then have searchers “walk past” a few hundred feet from the chest.

      The excuse has been the chest could be a couple hundred feet from a road and searchers simply drove by… only fenn has said; they walked by, walked past, while telling him their search process, where they were, in an email and that’s how he knows… if they said to him the scenario above… he would have known they got 4 clues correct, right? Not just two.

      “…people figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”
      LOL not ‘driving’ from wwwh to the put in with only two clues…

      • Postulate for you, Seeker.

        1) wwwh correctly assumed.
        2) CD correctly assumed.

        Searcher walking along a riverbank at point where small warm water source meets a larger cold water stream.

        Cold stream here cannot be waded because the water is too fast, cold and deep. But lineal distance to opposite shore is only a couple hundred feet.

        Given this arrangement, the searcher may need to drive to the closest bridge and come back to the point opposite wwwh.

        This would allow FF to say that no one interpreted clues 3-9 properly while still being in the correct area of wwwh, the canyon and the chest.

        Your thoughts appreciated.

      • Seeker,
        First of all, on my next trip, I will go with confidence to the exact spot that I believe that the chest is hidden. Am I correct? I don’t know for sure, but I hope so.
        The last time I contacted F, was in the Spring of 2013 as I sat below what I believed was the Home of Brown and emailed him from my iPad. I never told him what I believed was the HOB, but was able to describe where I was. I didn’t trust the security of his email. Would he take that as I must have solved the first 2 clues to have made it that far? Maybe.
        There are roads with in 200 feet and plenty of people have walked by even closer. It is a very popular area.
        If I am correct, a lot of people have been very close, but not sure if any searchers have been. If so, they didn’t realize it.
        Like I said earlier: I recently discovered that F had spent a lot of time just one mile from my solve location. This lead me to my discovery of what I believe is wwwh. A spot very important to him.
        To my knowlege, no one else seems to have the same area as me (that I have seen in the last 5 years), so I don’t feel that I have to hurry back out there. I have too much planned for the rest of this year. So next year!
        All just my opinion.

        • Knock your socks off Lucky… Only, would you want to go some place, chug a handful of sleeping pills, throw yourself on the chest with all those people around in a popular area-?- with a road a stone throw away?

          Being fixated on the prize, rather than the reason, will kill a solve every time.

          You also said; ‘A spot very important to him.’

          Well that would be big news, seeing fenn removed the reason why the place is special to him from his bio in the chest, [even for someone 1000 years from now would know why ] and refuses to even talk about it. Personally I doubt anyone alive would know why… maybe no one at all would have known why. “As I have gone a lone in there..”?

          At least that’s the way I see it.

          • I am realistic about my solve Seeker. But after listening to F say how much time he spent at this place and how important it was to him, I am as confident as anyone can possibly be. That was the final thing I needed to complete the process of marrying the poem with a map.
            If I am wrong, which based off the history of all searchers, I probably am, I will disclose my solve and explain my findings and thoughts.
            I am sorry you missed F discussing this place. With the importance that he put on it, it had to be part of his poem. It was like a Blaze when he said it.

            I appreciate you Seeker. I appreciate the things you bring up to blow peoples solves out of the water, but there is nothing you can bring up that can change my mind. I have to check it out myself. Be brave and look in the wood.
            Wood is the word that is key. And the Blaze.

            I hope you actually come up with a solve of your own that you believe in as much as I do mine. It is a good feeling.
            Talk to you soon,
            LD

          • Luckydog,

            I have heard fenn talk about many places and called them special. I just find it interesting that he would talk about the spot [ giving it a place by name or any other reference ] when he has claimed he would tell why it special to him.

            You said; ~ ‘I am sorry you missed F discussing this place. With the importance that he put on it, it had to be part of his poem. It was like a Blaze when he said it.’

            Where was this discussion you talk about? I’m sure many would like to see or hear what you did.

          • He didn’t talk about the actual hiding spot. In my opinion, he was referring to wwwh. It gave me the starting point to make sense out of the rest of my solve. If he spent that much time there, then he more than likely spent a lot of time at the hiding spot.

            It took a little research, and possibly a little stretching, to see how this place is wwwh, but it makes sense to me.

            I am sorry, but I will not say where or when he talked about this place, until I have made one last trip to see if I can solve this. Why would I give everyone the starting point, if the hiding spot and all the other clues are only a mile a way?

          • Seeker-
            If it’s the RIGHT place. I think it could absolutely be a mere 200ft from the road or a popular tourist spot or even parking lot. There are places in all four of the earmarked states where just 50ft from the road is darn near wilderness. There are also places where just 50ft off the road would put you in someone’s living room…The location has to be RIGHT…but there are many places very close to high traffic areas in the appointed states that could work..
            And, in my opinion, it would be just lake Forrest to pick such a place…an island of wilderness where no one would expect it to be…a private utopia on the edge of civilization…a special place..

          • Dal,
            Since you know Fenn better than the rest of us I appreciate your opinions of what he might or might not do.

  8. “Big to little” is my assumption. FF has to be able to take anyone and guide them; from a massive area to a small box with just a few clues. The first clues must describe a general area or item and then get progressively tighter.

    • ‘…FF has to be able to take anyone and guide them..’

      LOL that has yet to be seen.

      Folks have been on site, at the first two clues, gone by the other seven clues, been a couple hundred feet from the treasure, some may have four clues correct, over 200,000 searchers, and dozens of claims that they know where it is, countess numbers know what the blaze is, some even say they know where the chest is within 12’… seriously there’s a club with a dress code and everything[ white coats with long arms required ] … Yet !! …. “the poem” has done its job, it as sweaty bodies running all over the Rockies, but no discovery.

        • We only have the same ‘opportunity’ as the next guy.

          Even fenn stated he doesn’t “know” the poem will lead someone to the chest.
          Some folks screw up reality with sarcasm. The reality thus far is; even with folks on site, going past all the clues, getting near the hidey spot… none know notta. How do I know? fenn has stated as such. If ya got a complaint take it up with him.

      • Regardless of the lack of success, that has to be the logic behind the poem. There IS a variation on that idea; that the first couple of clues have a similar “weight” in that they lead you from A to D, and that you’ll know you are close when these simply “work” as an assembly- but at some point, even these will have to get more, if not absolutely specific, in their instruction.

    • Virginia, I definitely miss when Forrest was actively posting as well.

      At least with the winter we can all focus on WWWH as I am switching back to one of my previous answers to that beginning location.

    • Timing as in seasons?
      Flow of cooler waters to warmer waters? {more colder water run off, line of thinking, spring melt?}

      Just curious if this is part of the ‘planning’ process idea.

  9. IMO, I think there is a continuum between “Simplify” and the “head pressures, foot pounds, etc.)” Fenn warns against.

    I think too many are on the fringes of this continuum. For the first few clues at least, I think there’s a lot of room in the middle to explore.

  10. I’m beginning to think that:
    1) The word “warm” was used to refer to the general area in the Yellowstone National Park where the waters can be relatively at an elevated temperatures compared to waters in other areas because the YNP is literally located right above the geothermal region.
    2) The word “waters” was used to refer to larger bodies of water like rivers, not like small hot springs, geysers or creeks.
    3) The word “halt” was used to point to the location in the river where the movement or the flow of water stops and changes direction, not where it mixes with other rivers whose temperature is colder, relatively speaking.

    I think I know the exact location Fenn is refering to with this clue.

    — MK

    • Glad that you said “THINK” I know . . . Because that is all any of us can do at the present time – snow and all – (Just got 3″ in Pokewy today JMO – JDA

      • Hi JDA,
        Originally I was going to go there late October or early November but due to a couple of unexpected things happened I couldn’t make it there. I’m not sure when is the earliest time I can go there next spring. I’m dying to get my hands on the chest……
        — MK

          • seems to me by the tone in this room we are all flying by the seat of our pants i found one of the bigest rusty things in the rocky mountains a few minuts ago on GE it would be a funny ha ha hidy spot in colo possible the hob but got to go see it there first spring its worth a look see to know for sure puts me out because i havent found the true path just yet.have fun be safe

  11. The Waterfall story might be a hint to WWWH… Go with me here….

    I was imagining ‘Warm Waters’ as all life’s flowing fluids, water/blood/tears, and ‘Halt’ as a temporary stop in the flow of fluids (or time), and noticed that In the Waterfall story the Halts were preceded by a Fall.

    Recall the two grave markers … At the first one, Fenn trips & falls (halts) flat on his face. Pushing up, he came nose to nose with a metal marker of a French soldier who had fallen (halted) on the fields of war. But in the tall grass, FF had tripped over a STONE marker that had fallen/halted face down. Got it? Ok, onward…

    We assume the stone face had the name of another fallen soldier, and of course, the Homely Girl poem, but it is it unclear. The truth I suspect, is that the 2nd marker is, as Napoleon said on page 13: “a fable agreed upon.”

    Had the poem not been ‘arched’ on the page, I doubt I would have thought of ‘arch’ as a hint at all. But the graphic of Fenn holding an arched scant, plus his arched epitaph on pg. 97 itched a lot. Then H.L. Mencken told me to “wink”, not “smile”, at a homely girl. So I scratched some more. FRENCH – STONE – FALLEN – ARCH – SMILE, even Mona Lisa’s smile in the Louvre made the list! But soon, ARCH became my focused keyword.

    The Arc de Triomphe de l’Etoile was commissioned in 1806 by Napoleon to celebrate his victories. It took 5 architects & 30 years to build. But he died 15 years before completion. Fenn, said he felt like an architect writing his 15 year poem and his architect was nigh 80. Lesson learned.

    Lil’ Nappy’s iconic structure sits on a circle with 12 streets radiating from it. Voila! an asterisk. L’Etoile means “the star.” Maybe ‘a blaze’ too because an eternal flame flickers at the tomb of the Arc’s unknown soldier. The canyon of the Champs-Elysees is named for the Elysian Fields where Homer’s FALLEN hero’s march to their eternal glory & rest. It started to meld, but was disturbingly remote from the Rockies.

    At the waterfall, Fenn said “I was embarrassed and felt foolish for making such a big deal out of something that now seemed whimsical.” Whimsical? L’Etoile is also an opéra bouffe in 3 acts. Opéras bouffe are known for comedy, satire, parody and farce. So, O.K, whimsical.

    Other Arcs have been architecturally modeled on the Parisian totem … which has rudely been likened to an elephant.…heavy, blocky, stone loads bridging a gateway arch. One is in Pyongyang-Korea, another is in Vientiane-Laos… that one is known as the “vertical runway.” Look it up, it’s funny.

    I’m not going to hit all possible references to the Arc, not the French watercolor of fairies dancing around a rock, or Marianne who dances atop the Arc in the “City Of Love” …, or the Coq Gaulois; nor a thumb that covered the “City of Brotherly Love” on Friday the 13th. blah, blah, blah. I’m only going to ask a question. Compared to the Arc de Triumph de l’Etoile, would you consider Yellowstone’s Natural Bridge to be a Homely Girl? OS2

    • You all are so far out of the box, what do a child know about these things, or even have the rednecks in Texas, with 4 kids and a pickup. Sometimes I think some of you just want brag about the breath of your education or knowledge. Yes, ff has traveled the world and is widely experienced in much. He knows there are many who never get such chances, and it was for them he created the chase. Indiana Jones was educated, but he always had to follow the clues. The chase is a much simpler example of such movies. But if you want to chase such far fetched solves, have at it, For it removes you all from the true solve. Simplify

      • Greg, you’re posting on a computer, so I assume you have the same access to all that “out of the box” info as I do. It’s just as OOB to me as all the astronomy, geology, pilot talk, math talk (tarry points), sacred geometry (64 points)stuff, and much more. Just get on the carousel and enjoy the ride, we’re all kinda dizzy from it.

        • O2O, like I said, its your path, follow it if you wish. It just seems some get so far a field, it amazes me, knowing what ff has said. Just seems to me one needs to follow the band leaders instructions if you can try to think like he does. Good luck with your search.

        • Os2…frankly, I think you’re in the right research box.

          If the stars ever align, would love to spilt a hush puppy and cup of Pero with you 🙂

          • A day late and a dollar short again, sorry I missed this. Jmeils, The stars have never aligned for me… they’re a mess, all over the GD place as far as I can see, I’m armchair bound & will never be on a hunt except in my imagination, but thank you for the invite. Cheers, OS2

    • I am curious to the idea of WWWH being temporary ,where the interpretation is as being of a temporary status ? If waters halt is only of a temporary status or only as a temporary viewed perception. How and where in the poem is credence given to the temporary halt or continuing but out of sight interpretation?

      I would think the poem would direct this thought process within it?

      I don’t see it but that is just me. Halt means stop. I just don’t see anything before nor after the sentence that signifies “Halt” as bring temporary then continues ,or is just a perception of halt then continues out of sight.

      I tried the “Begin IT” and “And take IT” perspective but I can’t make this connection anywheres. I can’t see either “IT” as being connected to waters halt ,before nor after the WWWH. I can see “IT” in the poem realm as being contiguous but independent of wwwh as being the “IT” meaning.

      IMO .

      • Everything here on Earth is temporary including Earth.
        Does that explain your delima?
        Now that’s a big picture from a small mind.

        • Thanks for clearifying Jake. There’s no such thing as a defined word in a world that is perceived to be for a limited existence in time.

          Much appreciated.

        • Jmeils. I understand your temporary colour of from brown to green from a seasonal perspective. So, when wwwh some things go from brown to green, or other colours , due to the lack of water ( halt). Seasonal changes in temperatures also cause color changes and not from lack of moisture/water. Presuming in the poem that a capital B for Brown is meant as a colour. Also, to presume that brown is connected to wwwh as a Brown ; meaning this denotes halt as temporary. Though things are contiguous , it’s kind of afar from wwwh to read wwwh is temporary from the lines and words before and immediately following halt in wwwh.

          IMO .

      • Alset, I deliberated on that word ’temporary’ too… I acknowledge a common concept that death may be just a transitional stage, a pause between life and afterlife. (Not unlike a waterfall’s change from one elevation to another). Others like me, believe all my bits and pieces are merely on a long slog to the last sea. But I had another concept in mind, of a more literary currency… Some few will live post-mortem in the Halt … alive to those who care to study them in the dry records of history or stone memorials. Life by legacy or reputation. So, in that sense, I used “halt’ not as a full stop.

        Also… Dry records / dry stream… it there, but it’s not there. What a concept!

        • OS2. Interesting way to look at poetry for its many conceptuals. I think it’s important to be open to any and all perceptions possible. Poetry is potent in many a variable concepts . Only the writer knows the concept(s) of their intended true meanings. No matter how much FF shares of himself , about himself, we are limited in knowing his true self- same with everyone. This makes a simple reading of a poem difficult ,to be sure of anything about all the writers intended meanings. Make it even more difficult by ‘forgetting’ to name it’. (Paraphrasing “forgot”).

          FF Quote-“You’re talking about legacy? People ask me about that a lot, and I have to say that I don’t feel that way. My philosophy is that when I’m gone, who cares anymore? If I died this week, it would not bother me at all if no one ever mentioned my name again”

          Perhaps it’s the person that solves his poem and finds the chest is that his legacy will be remembered.

          A lagacy is of a proven creation or fact of an accomplishment that others have and will benefit from-not just about themselves. A legacy is of a continuous benefit to others. Where the warm waters continue!

          IMO .

      • Alsetenash,
        Stop thinking linear for a second.
        Halt; 1. a temporary or permanent stop in a process. 2. interruption or temporary suspension of progress or movement.

        A waterfall fits this depiction well… a change in a horizontal flow to a vertical flow back to a horizontal flow… flowing warm [liquid] waters
        Frozen liquid also can be depicted as a change [ regardless of time ] from liquid to solid… a glacier works for this idea.

        Both ideas do the same, only slightly different. IT ~ the waters, take ‘it’ in the canyon down. The waters create the canyon. In either scenario, Not Far – in time, but too far too walk – back in time.
        Both ideas might be explaining how the canyon was created. The question now might be; why is that important to know about, nail it down, idea?

        The idea also works for two or more waterfall{s} that empty into one canyon… as well as two or more glaciers, line of thinking, working to the same location ‘down’ the canyon.

        So I think the poem can depict / give credence to a temporary change… in movement and/or state of the waters.
        Only this won’t make much sense if you only think of ‘yourself’ as linear in movement.

        However, “IT” can refer to looking. Begin’ looking’ where waters go into the canyon.. you ‘take IT in’ the canyon down. You look down at the action of the waters. Not Far from where you are at, but too far to walk, because you simply need to see hoB [whatever it refers to.] That’s is where your ‘eyes’ ‘put in’ below.
        Again, the idea is to step away from the linear idea that ‘you’ need to move. You can ‘follow’ clues by seeing them…and they can ‘lead’ you to the blaze, line of thinking.

        • Seeker. You have great points. I like how you presented your point of view. A good combination of logic and imagination ,backed up with definitions and meanings of words. You gave examples of how water with its various manifested forms . You make your idea of the way of your thinking the poem ,very soluble.

          Though, my difference to yours is that I do not relate to in the poem as saying that any of the ‘IT’ words are in any way referring to or linked in meaning to wwwh.

          Yes, a waterfall or glacier waters can flow and carve as your examples indicate. For, there are many places where warm waters halt and most are north of SF. There can be more than one meaning to the meaning of warm waters halt, as has been discussed in depth within discussions about this first clue.

          The trick is, would you agree, is nailing this clue down. Which of the meanings for wwwh has FF chosen as his meaning? How to know beyond a reasonable doubt before hand?

          My answer ( well, what I think anyways) is he uses two meanings in the poem. Yep, I say 2 meanings. They are both viable in the poem and at location. One is a finite halt and the other a temporary. Buuuuut in the poem as it is written, does not indicate by process , the temporary halt. IMO . Crazy huh? Important possibility? Double Omega? One above and one below?

          To me, the poem says both in the beginning, but continues with only one. I am not in conflict with this with what I said above.

          Sounds complex but it is the hardest of all the clues. IMO

          • I think the word it plays different roles.
            We can read the poem as “Begin it” as if we are doing something at some place.
            We can read the poem as; “Begin it where” as in a different time or place in time.
            We didn’t change the word ‘it’ it changed with the word ‘where’

            The same can be said for “it” in regards to “take it in” We can have a physical movement of something you much do, or a vantage point.
            In both cases “it” doesn’t change… the role ‘it’ plays does… to reflect what is needed to be known and/or done.

            In theory… IT is an idea, the situation, the circumstances.

            The same can be said for “So why is IT I must go and leave my trove…” That line could easily been written as; ‘So why must I go…’ In this case the role it IT may pertain to “tried and weak” or the answer of what that truly means.

            IT may not be considered a clue, but it seems to imply certain thoughts… IT’s just a matter of thinking the right thoughts
            If we understand the idea.. the poem may become clearer.

          • Seeker. Try this exorcize of not messing with the poem ,lol. Read the poem without saying any ” IT” words- but still nclude reading the (IT’s).

            Does this change or highlight any of the meanings of IT for you?

          • Alsetenash,

            Sure it does… “begin where warm waters halt..” And take in the canyon down.

            Buutt, not really. ‘Begin’ can still be of a place in time, just by its definition alone.
            “Take in” can still be a view, by its meaning.

            The problem is; fenn place those “it” in the poem and apparently where he wanted them to be [ every word was deliberate, crafted the poem, felt like an architect,, those ATF’s have to mean something, right? ].
            They {it} don’t seem to be important at first glance, but he seem to think they were needed or he could ‘have’ easily left them out. Only having them where they are gives pause to ideas and thoughts.
            If fenn wasn’t truly trying to fool anyone, I personally need to ask why they are there and their purpose…. It is, part of my analyzing process.

            If IT didn’t mean something.. why use them?

          • Seeker. I was just intending the exercise as a perspective to the meaning the IT words. Not to actually devalue them in any way or deem them dispensable.

            If you change just one word in a poem, it changes the whole poem. Is my point. I understand the ‘don’t mess with the poem’.

            Switching sequence with just two words with another , such as ‘ ever’ and ‘drawing’ , changes the poem.

            I think that reading ‘waters’ as ‘water’ in interpretation was a major sidetrack I had went through.

            IMO

        • Seeker: I still say geysers fit the WWWH bill better than either waterfalls or glaciers because they literally halt in 3 different ways.

          • WWHalt can be other ideas as well, Zap.

            I just have a problem with the idea of one geyser, or a group of them to be the first clue.
            The same for hot springs [ which some think are the same, but.. ] there’s nothing ‘subtle’ in the book or books about them… they are talked about straight up. I’m not sure I would call that subtle, but more to the fact, deliberate.

            I also don’t think a waterfall is WWH either. But it is a good example to talk about in reference to halt meaning as a; temporary change.
            Another, less exciting idea, is a river that ‘leaves’ one boundary into another and back again.
            It temporarily leaves it’s origin, or original area. YSR is a good example of this idea. The name or ‘color’ reference to the river, fenn’s fondness [comfortable feeling?,comfortable color?] of YS, his fishing activities… a fishing guide for YS etc etc.

            Yep, that idea bends the meaning of halt a bit, but bending isn’t ‘breaking’ the rules… the meaning doesn’t change… just the idea of interpretation from a poem can give this idea some legs to walk on…. In this case… this is basically a stomping mode search. It would deal almost solely with the YS river’s path.

          • Hi Seeker: I’m not saying WWWH is a geyser or geysers or even a geyser basin. I’m saying Forrest’s warm waters are the *totality* of Yellowstone. It’s not an original idea, but I have happened to share the belief that it is the correct one for years.

            You suggest that it’s too obvious. Yes, the identity of Forrest’s warm waters would be glaringly obvious if YNP was the answer. One might even say it would be something a child could figure out. (Hmm… familiar?)

            But *Where* they halt is what matters, and that is NOT at all obvious, IMO. Solving that is the trick: a trick no “child” is going to figure out, again in my opinion.

          • Zap,
            You wrote:
            “But *Where* they halt is what matters, and that is NOT at all obvious, IMO. Solving that is the trick: a trick no “child” is going to figure out, again in my opinion.”

            That seems to contradict the entire concept of Jenny’s hypothetical LGII. If a little girl in India who speaks good english can solve the first two clues with ONLY the poem and a map of the US Rockies, Forrest seems to imply it is possible for a child to figure out the “where” in WWWH – and figure out the second clue as well. Perhaps “glaringly obvious” is a factor in her ability to derive correct solutions to these clues.

            We can only guess F’s presumed level of detail in the LGII’s map…
            Joe

          • From Wikipedia (for what it’s worth):
            “water” = the substance
            “waters” = a body of water
            “body of water” is very wide ranging and goes from oceans down to mud puddles,
            but specifically excludes waterfalls, geysers and rapids.
            My opinion:
            “warm waters” if a stream would “halt” at a waterfall or rapids and then begin again below.

          • Hi Joe: sorry for the belated reply. Forrest has certainly gotten a lot of mileage out of Li’l Indy, hasn’t he? I think if you poll folks here about how many clues she can solve based on Forrest’s answer, most would probably say two. But really, there is nothing in his answer that says she can’t solve 3 clues, or even 4 or more. To think she can only solve 2 with her limited information and restriction on resources involves a second unspoken assumption. Such hidden assumptions can lead to false conclusions. I’ll illustrate this with one perfectly possible example: suppose the 3rd clue is further from the chest than the 2nd?

      • Alsetenash, it seems to me that you are answering your own questions. You said: I would think the poem would direct this thought process within it?
        I don’t see it but that is just me.
        Not exactly. We have to see this for what it is. And of course, back to the ATF I always point out. It is obvious that in no in-subtle way that f has answered or given the answers to such questions regarding wwwh. In trying to solve for wwwh, the answers must be hidden some way, or given in a “”subtle” way.
        You say: Halt means stop. I just don’t see anything before nor after the sentence that signifies “Halt” as bring temporary then continues ,or is just a perception of halt then continues out of sight.
        Exactly, there is nothing that jumps out at you to answer these questions of wwwh. Or basically, in an in-subtle way. Again, we are left to think that the only way to answer for wwwh is to find it in a “subtle” way.
        That’s when the ATF comes into play. F says that the answer to wwwh is not given in a subtle way. Since this is the case, you could see why you are having complications in trying to solve for wwwh. The answer is that there is no answer. This has been what I’m trying to say. F’s own words, and we should recognize, is that he has not given the answer to wwwh. The problem is that searchers don’t want to believe this. It comes down to a searchers way of solving the poem, or how they read the poem. If you need to solve clues to get to the next clue, this kind of thinking does not fit, and is, for lack of a smarter term, ILLOGICAL. And thus, they find other twisted ways to answer for this specific piece of info. They force fit.
        As you say that you don’t see a way that the answer jumps out at you, and the fact that the info to solve is not hidden in some special way, this ATF answers your question for you, and tells you that the reason you feel this way is because f has not given the info to answer.
        In thinking about it, no matter which view you use, the answer is still the same. You cannot have an answer for wwwh when solving for clues. The info is just not there. Doesn’t mean you cannot know what wwh is, means you cannot solve it in the scope that you are trying to understand the answer. Solving a clue has a different meaning to f then it does for us. His understanding is if someone is just there at wwwh is, for us, we need to know why it is wwwh. This way we can go on to understand what the next clue is. That is the problem for those solving clue to clue, it just cannot be done, f has said as much. To think of this as ILLOGICAL is to foolishly see only the one side of a two sided coin. It didn’t work out well for the Germans in the Indiana Jones movie, and doesn’t work here.
        The point here is that you see your confusion and then ask yourself why. Why can’t I see the answer? And that is the answer. The info needed is not available, and that is fact and what f ha said. It should lead you to not trying so hard to find an answer but instead, look at the poem in a different way. To solve the poem is not the same as solving clues. To think, if we solved all the clues per say, does not mean we solved the poem. But, if we solve the poem, we solve for all the clues.
        Like I said, if you look at what you posted, and see that in trying the many different ways of solving for wwwh is not working, sooner or later you will come to the fact, and see what f is saying. That there is no answer for wwwh. You will be able to tie in more and more of his ATF’s and finally come to the same realization.

          • I think poison ivy is saying you won’t figure out the WWWH by some linear deductions of subtle hints & clues but by some epiphany-gestalt flash-bang. Just a guess.

          • Some folks try so hard to explain themselves they get lost in their own writings and translations.
            More words is not always better.
            Quality over quantity works best.

          • Short and sweet senor Jake. There is no answer available for wwwh. It cannot be solved. (I was feeling under the influence, lol)
            The poem isn’t about solving clues, that’s not how it was written, and not what it was meant to do. It is meant to put an “X” on a map. The only way to get wwwh, IMO, is to first get the “X”, (solve the poem).

        • Poisonivey. The statement I made was in the form of a question. I wasn’t asking the question for myself of there being a temporary waters halt. Read my response to seeker a few minutes about of you response. There’s a lot of thinking around the halt being temporary. I say there is both ends to the halt meaning in the poem , in my opinion. Within halt many thinks in definition of warm waters halt – temporary ;can this be read in the poem? I see both. But only one of the two is , shall I say, the imagination part is the halt/stop that is the one that continues influence in the continuation of the poem.The temporary other could be called the logical one.

          That’s as much as I can elaborate. I just stick with the poem.
          IMO .

    • OS2 – in a word yes. Why not? AND, you can ride a bike on that trail (big smile
      – facial arch). The feature is “on the way” from (Buffalo Bull) Cody to West Yellowstone. We find in TTOTC that there are multiple references to arches – (and bridges) both in the text, illustrations, and pictures. (I didn’t say there were hints in the illustrations, everyone settle down). The Roosevelt Arch in Gardiner has gotten my attention as well. I like your tie in to the Arc de Triomphe de l’Etoile. Nice!

      • Sandy, you get it. FF’s first years at Yellowstone we’re spent camping in the Fishing Bridge area. I think the trail by the natural bridge may have been the roadway then, prior to the Grand Loop, but I don’t know the dates.

    • If that was directed at me – No, I do not have the box – BUT, I do not make statements like : “You all are so far out of the box, what do a child know about these things, or even have the rednecks in Texas, with 4 kids and a pickup.”

      If YOU (Greg) do not have the chest, how can you say “The chase is a much simpler example of such movies. But if you want to chase such far fetched solves, have at it, For it removes you all from the true solve. Simplify” How do you know that it removes us from the true solve, if the solve has not been published – with evidence – the chest?

      You may have ideas – loke all of us, but we do not state our ideas as facts – THAT is the difference – Just sayin – JDA

      • JDA, I think you just like to be negative, my statements are solidly based on what FF has repeatedly said, simplify, a child might have a better chance. Last time I checked this is America and I can say what I think, but it always seems to conflicts with you for some reason. I was commenting to what O2O was stating. But like always, you like to butt in and be rude. I thought I made it clear that I would ignore you, if you did the same. But you chose to be a dickhead and I will now treat you as one. My apologizes to everyone else, but I dislike persistence arrogance of some individuals. If you want respect you must give respect.

        • Ok Greg, You were addressing me personally, Ill answer personally …. Do you have TTOTC? Have you read the chapter called My War For Me? Did the waterfall story seem to you like a ‘turtle-on-fencepost’?

          I think most any 13 year old hiking in the woods who happens upon a natural wonder like a big waterfall, a stone arch, or on a ledge with an astounding vista… might lock it in his memory as a special place.

          Seventy five years later, full of world experience, that same boy-man might find another place that reminds him of that special place. (Pull up pictures of the Arc de Triomphe, and Yellowstone’s Natural Bridge, do you see a rudimentary similarity? Maybe even a poetic reflect on one’s journey from boy-to-man?)

          I do not say that the Yellowstone Arch is WWWH… but I did expect the reader to imagine that it might such a place — a natural bridge, stone arch, a victory or memorial wall with ancient petroglyphs or maybe hoodoos that stand like sentries. I enjoy thinking like that. I think the waterfall story is as much hint as it is story. I hope you got it. Good luck to you. OS2

          • O2o I am in S. American, and do not have access to any of the books. FF has said, there are no clues in the books, only hints about the clues. FF also said, one only needs the poem, a good map, and bit of imagination. I have spent hundreds of hours researching on google, Bing, yahoo, foxfire, and start. Reading everything I can find, looking at every related photo and video. Marrying each clue solve to the map connected to the other clues for a path. Next summer we will see if anyone has the correct solve. I hope some one finds it, and does the right thing with it. Good luck

  12. 2 thoughts regarding WWH
    1. Foam Lines in the water – Its a fishing thing where warm waters meet colder waters forms foam lines, its one way fisherman use to help find trout. Because foam lines are big indicators of food for the fish.

    2. It could also mean freezing – example (when water droplets freeze on their way out of the sky if forms snowflakes or ice crystals) because technically all water is warm until if freezes or turn into gas. What if WWH is a reference to snowflake springs in Gallatin canyon, just below sage creek (Wise), and above Fawn Pass (Brown).

    • A thought on wwwh. It has nothing to do with being warm or temperature, nothing to do with halting/stopping, nothing to do with waters, The only thing it has to do with is “beginning”, starting.

        • No flaw Charlie, The poem gives the “X”, the end spot, from that, you find “out” to find where to start. If you solve the poem correctly, it will give you the treasure spot. You can then map your path. Where you start is wwwh. F has always said solve the poem like you are putting an “X” on a map. That’s how the poem is written, to solve for an “X”, not to solve all the clues. IMO, if you think you solved for wwh before knowing the final spot, probably wrong. IMO, trying to solve for clues is the worst thing you can do. Solving clues is not solving the poem. Two intirely different things, IMO.

  13. I hate to bust everyone’s bubble, however I am of the mind WWW has nothing to do with water.
    As time provides I will be making a what I don’t know list. And after I think through it maybe some answers will come to light.

  14. Hi Drifter, That idea has come up before. What ever WWWH is, Mr. Fenn said there were many of them, North of Santa Fe.

    • What ever WWWH is, there must be a canyon, with a hoB. If you don’t have those 3 things, better find another start. While the starting point is very important, if it does not relate some how to the next clues, you are done. But that does not mean quit, it may mean to adjust your thinking about what you read and see. Good luck

  15. We are told to start it at the beginning:

    “Begin it where warm waters halt…”

    And yet Forrest then quoted T.S. Eliot who said:
    “We shall not cease from our exploration
    And at the end of all our exploring
    Will be to arrive where we started
    And know the place for the first time.”

    Therefore not only should we “Begin it where warm waters halt…”
    But we should END IT where warm waters halt. Oh, and in the middle of it all we are told that the END is ever (Meaning more than once) drawing nigh. We seem to be in a never ending circle don’t we?

    Speaking of circles: “I was wondering if you would be so bold as to give an estimate of how far you walked to hide the treasure after leaving your car: was it >10miles, between 5 and 10 miles, between 1 and 5 miles, or less than 1 mile? ~Thanks, Ron

    .
    Ron, your question sounds like a travelogue, but I’ll answer it. No, I don’t want to be that bold. But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles?” f

    Just some observations – JDA

    • JDA. Nice pre-sent/ation :

      “Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking”. f

      The other half:

      Your effort will be worth the cold.

      IMO .

      • Thanks Alsetenash;

        In the above, I am not saying that we end at the SAME wwwh that we started, but we will end at “A” wwwh – maybe we should call it wwwh “B” if we start at wwwh “A” – confused yet? I am 🙂 JDA

        • JDA. Yes, I figured that is what you mean. It’s not the same location as where begin wwwh and as the end point is ,in this speak -geographically speaking. It is metaphoric 🙂

          Heh..hem, this is a poem, it is poetry!

          IMO .

        • Hi JDA,
          You know what I think? I think the blaze cannot be at the same place as WWWH where we started as you said. Therefore, if we can see a full view of WWWH from the blaze, would that be considered as “to arrive where we started, And know the place for the first time”?
          — MK

          • Seeker proposes a “Small Area Solve”. If your solve falls into this category, then my answer could be “yes”.

            Even if you have a “Small Area Solve” I will maintain that if you can see WWWH “A”, at the blaze, you will also be able to see WWWH “B” – JMO – JDA

        • I do find something interesting about this theory. There are things in geography that could be both an example of WWWH and HLAWH. One line down from WWWH is ATIITCD. One line up from HLAWH is TWBNPUYC. These could also be representative of each other. You can take it in the canyon down while not paddling up the creek. It gets better though. One line down from canyon down we have Not far. One line up from no paddle up we have end ever drawing nigh. Essentially the same as not far. It’s almost as if we have similar points working toward each other with the middle being BHOB and NPFTM.

  16. JDA are you implying that t wwh travels in a circle? the C point may have value then i know its beautiful there. but i havent found it in real life yet. but im bound to ive seen it on ge

  17. I don’t understand why we are having trouble finding wwwh is – ff said that every thing we need to find the treasure chest is in the poem- and I be leave its true – we not only have to read the poem but understand what he means – he said to beginning it where warm waters halt – as you go north you will come to a canyon where the water of the creek is coming down to the bottom of the canyon and meets with another body of water that is colder then the water from the creek- that is where warm water halts- from there you turn left (where you take it in (go west ) the canyon down (where you start at the bottom of the canyon and wwwh is and you take it to home home of brown

    • Frank, there are a couple of field of thoughts to apply for direction wise. If you are looking at a map north is always up, south is down. But if your talking about water, down is the direction the water is flowing as in down stream, and the opposite for up stream. Making sure you know which way the water is flowing is important, and water runs down hill, topo map can help clarify that, but in many parts of the mountains the continental divide comes into play. It is something you must double check at times. If WWWH is above the canyon then the water must go down into a canyon.

      • greg I don’t go as far as the continental divide – the poem says its not far but to far to walk so wwwh is closer then that

      • greg,

        There are basically two types of maps… kinda.
        One is a conventional map, compass bearings if you will… NSEW are used to keep your bearings while following a map.
        The other is directional, in manner. Meaning you do as you’re told… or the poem is map. In this case; is up always N? or S always down?
        Can Nigh or Far be left and right, line of thinking? Yet those direction might not west or east on a conventional map… They simply tell you where to go… ‘you’ turn left or right in the location you are at.
        So, lets take GE for this type of directional idea. GE is nothing more than an image, a picture… only later is it labeled with NSEW, Roads, RXR, Historical site, Churches, Airports… you git the gist.
        We were told that helpful tool references are GE “and/or” a good map. IF GE is sufficient on its own… do we need the labels or just the image of the land to perform the directions stated in the poem?

        I’ll add for thought… we are told to marry the ‘clues’ to ‘a’ place on a map or [ GE ]
        Is this telling us each clue is in different places spread out over miles, or all the clues in one place?
        I consider the latter. In this case, the rights and lefts take the ‘searcher’ in direction of the searcher’s rights and lefts and not so much a map’s NSEW… kinda like the idea. fenn followed the clues when he hid the chest… HE followed his rights and lefts and ups and downs movements as told in the poem [deciphered directions ].
        With these thoughts in mind; does it make more sense that Little Indy or anyone else ‘can not get closer’ than the first two clues… with a map of the RM’s and the poem? IF all the clues are close together…
        This is the scenario I’m working on… The problem is, once WWH is located on any kind of map, be it conventional or image… the poem’s map is for the searcher alone, on site, with all the clues close by. The need to be on site, idea.

        A map is a map… right. The main idea of a map is to go from point A to point B… The poem is a map, does it not ‘tell’ you where to go? But here’s the kicker… do we need to ‘go’ anywhere else other than WWH-?- to locate the rest of the clues?

    • Frank: you keep insisting on “north” being relevant to the solution, yet NOTHING in the poem specifically mentions north, south, east or west. If you want to keep trotting that theory out, either admit that it only means north in YOUR particular solution, or explain what in the poem unambiguously provides that cardinal direction.

      • the poem tells me north here is why I say this- – if you are going north from santa fe and you have to know where is wwwh – you take it in cause for me there no other way to go but west to hob where you come to a dead end if you know what is water high and its north of hob why would you go any other way if you turn south at the dead end there is nothing south of hob – zap do you think that ff was going to tell us turn left here then right then go north in away he does by the clues thats why I say north why would I go east if I come from there I can just go so far west and there is nothing south of hob so yes the poem does tell me witch to go – It didn’t take me aday to find this out it took me 5 years so you take it from here

          • zap the reason you go west from wwwh is to take you off the road you are in and puts on the right road that takes you to home of brown from there (hob) waters high is north of hob then its the blaze and that’s north of waters high then its in the wood and that’s north of the blaze then its the treasure chest that is north and on the left side (nigh) of in the wood

          • Frank: “waters high” is two words, not one, so no: it cannot be Forrest’s “word that is key.”

        • Frank everybody reads it different, the trick is to think like ff. Between his books, the audio and videos can give you some insight to his way of thinking, and he has a couple of curve balls, that break up any set pattern. Good luck

          • greg that’s not the problem if you ask me a question and I answer it I think I should at least get a reply on my answer its only right

        • Frank: so your theory is crucially dependent on knowing that the treasure is north of Santa Fe: information that is not in the poem. So therefore you don’t believe the poem alone (with a map and/or Google Earth) is sufficient to solve the clues. Yet Forrest says all you need is the poem (and the right map)..

          • zap first of all the key word I was talking about was not about forrest it was about what word was what was sending you north- if you understand and follow the clues and on ge you will understand that the hightest point of this body of water – water high – is at the north end that’s why it says waters high and if you look at it on ge it is north of hob – if forrest said that it was north of santa fe then that’s where I would start looking for the clues north of there at least he helped us with that much the poem and ge is all ive used sense I started looking for the treasure chest – if hob and wwwh is in at low elevation the beginning wouldn’t you have to go north to get between 7000 and 10000 ft above sea level im sure ff didn’t climb a mountain to get that high- ff drove there he didn’t walk its not in the poem- ff said its north of santa fe its not in the poem these are hints he has helped us with we do the rest to find the treasure chest north of santa fe

          • zap I don’t think I ever said any thing like what you are saying above – the poem and GE is all I have used – wwwh is where you turn west to go to hob- from there you go to waters high – and that is north of hob – the reason he sends you to waters high- is so you can find the blaze and that’s north of waters high and so on

          • Frank: you say that the poem and GE is all you have ever used. I say: false. You depend on the Santa Fe reference. Suppose you had never heard of Santa Fe. Would you have ever come up with your current solution?

      • ok zap after all I went through to explain to you why I say north you can at least tell me something does the poem tell me north is how you go are you satisfied with my answer

        • The way I read it when ff when he said 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe, he was setting the southern boundary for the search area, the northern boundary is the Canadian Border, east-west is the width of the Rockys in 4 states. In the poem I see nothing that says North as a direction, unless something matches your solve in some manner. No mention of a canyon north of WWWH, no north of the hoB, or the Put In. Marry the clues in order, from the poem to the labels on the map. This is where your imagination blends with your information.

          • ok greg im not going to try to change you way of thinking its all good I don’t think im wrong but who knows good luck on the chase its been nice talking to you frank

        • Frank: it would help our proper understanding of your posts if you would use *some* punctuation. Your posts seem like a stream of concsciousness with no capitalization, no commas, and no periods. So we can’t always tell where one sentence ends and another begins.

          • sap im sorry about that but I don’t under stand the computer that well – or the signs – im 72 years old I have never had to write like this in 50 something years so I try my best I don’t know about punctuations any more I had never had to spell this much so a lot of words I have forgotten how to spell – I took typing in school but now I type with one finger – I know what you mean just bare with me I do my best

          • sense I have forgotten how to spell a lot of words its hard to express what im trying to say – so I have to go the long way and find other words to help me say what I want to say

          • Gee Zap,
            When fenn does it, its cute. When another does it, its grammar anxiety?
            I was diagnosed with hippopotomonstrosesquipedaliophobia…
            Anything over three syllables causes a hernia.
            It plays havoc with my cyberphoiba. Which in this case is the fear other will hate my spellchecker.
            Which also play havoc on my other phobia Didaskaleinophobia.
            I wonder if fenn suffers from the same problem and why he was always escaping out the window at school and praying for D’s?

          • Seeker (and Frank): I was just pointing out that when you use no punctuation at all, you place a burden on your reader to try to figure out what you’re saying. Sometimes it’s obvious and funny, like:

            Let’s eat, Grandma!

            Vs.

            Let’s eat Grandma!

            Just saying that a period once in awhile can help the reader catch his breath, and tell when one thought has ended and another has started.

        • you say – suppose you had never heard of santa fe. would you have ever come up with your current solution I say yes, like this poem ff thought of every thing we need to find the tc . im sure he would of found a way in the poem to tell us it was north of santa fe . wish you guys luck on the chase I think ill just stop commenting sense I don’t know how to use punuations if I spelled that right

  18. this might help you get there first the wwh must be above you some where in the valley of life i say that because your to take it in the canyon down from there but the tricky part is whats above up or below down in your area at least it is in the area i love to search

  19. Hi all, as a retired Australian living in Cambodia I will, in all probability, never get the chance to go searching for myself, so thought I would share some of my minds wanderings here.

    Whilst doing the dishes it occurred to my that my warm water was halting in the sink. Which lends itself to”The Sink” in Sinks canyon as the perfect WWWH. If the 3 lines are taken together as a single clue (BIWWWHATITCD, NFBTFTW) it is just too perfect. The river waters disappear (halt) and go underground (into the canyon down). It is a quarter mile (not far) above ground to where it resurfaces, about 3 minutes of normal travel time, but it takes over 2 hours (about 10 miles) underground (too far to walk).

    Just a musing presented as a thought masquerading as an idea. Take it with a grain of salt.

  20. That is refreshing and allows me to discard one ideal and backs up another. One of the things we don’t know is what state was Forrest in at the time he placed the chest in it’s hiddy spot. Ummmm. Thanks for bringing me up to speed, after three years absence it’s good to be back.

    HDD

    • HI I’d like to talk with you about Forrest Fenn’s poem and a theory I may have about the clue Where Warm Waters Halt talk about double entendres could these first letters in this clue really mean to begin a story you need the 5 W,S we already know Who he is so he Begins his story like ever story Where What When And How no story can begin unless you have the 5 W,S this is why he tells everyone you cannot start anywhere else in the poem .Whats your thoughts ? I have more more interesting ideas if your interested BTH

      • You forgot the fifth “WHY” – and that may be the most important. Are we sure that it was just to get kids (and older ones) off of the couch, and away from their texting machines? Getting us out in nature etc. Is there another WHY????? Who knows? – JDA

        • JDA, some forms provide YYYY to = Y ear. There’s your 5th “Why” write there! Just funnin’ w/ya

          A curiosity question for you if you will…
          As a sculptor, would you consider a finished piece of your work to be a man-made object, or man-altered object?
          Thanks in advance….

          • mia –

            I would have to say man-altered – in most cases.

            I know that it will sound crazy, but for most pieces, I have to “Listen” to the stone, and let it tell me what “IT” wants to be. Sure, a commissioned piece has to end up looking like what the client had in mind, but these are man-made pieces. If I “Listen” to the stone, and let it become what it wants to be, it is man-altered.

            Yes, I know I am crazy – but ain’t it fun??? JDA

          • JDA I can’t argue with your view as an artist. I used to turn wood pens and pencils and I have the same thoughts of the wood talking to me becoming what it wants. But to me I would still consider it man made. In reality everything is God made and man can only alter it, so in that respect nothing is man made. I am not being picky but just throwing out a few of my mind’s wondering around LOL.
            Good luck to all, and may the chest be found before FF turns 89.

          • JDA, I hear ya. And thanks again for the reply.
            As far as crazy goes, I say… enjoy the ride while it lasts!

            Not Obsessed, I think it’s a fine line: man vs. God. I’m just trying to decide on which side f walks.
            Btw: considering the underlying premise, I think 86 would have been a more fitting age for the chest to be found. ; )

          • Mia;

            Forrest’s Birthday is not until August 22, so it still might be found when he is 88 – Just sayin’ – JDA

  21. Good morning to all
    As I catch up on my reading here some things come to mind.
    So I am about to take you into the rabbit hole. Keep in mind what I am presenting is just some of my thoughts.

    As I sit here thinking it occurs to me that it is possible that the poem only points to one physical location. The other locations being metaphorical Idealoligies. The thing is to get the jest of each one and how it relates to the actual location of the chest.

    Yeah the rabbit hole just got deep.
    Shout out to forrest. Good to see you are still proding us along.

    • Hi HDD,
      Your idea is not impossible to ponder about, but if that’s true as you suggested, don’t you think Fenn’s 15 years of writing a single poem about only a single location is a big waste of his time and in turn of us searchers precious time? I think there is a lot more idea and effort to the poem than any of us can even fathom. That’s my take on the poem itself.
      — MK

      • MK;

        What difference does it make how large the search area ism as it relates to the poem? All of the elements are there, whether the trip covers many miles or only a few hundred feet. The challenge, for Forrest, was to capture in words several places that could be recognized by the reader. For all we know, the words MIGHT lead us from a place miles away, to a small search area, and then re-direct through the same steps and places again, in this smaller area.

        Until it is solved, all we can do is try to unravel the mysteries – large in scope – “The Big Picture: – or small – “A Small Search Area” either way, or both, the poem is a masterpiece of intrigue and it certainly was worth Forrest’s time – and ours. JMO – JDA

        • I believe we were told to marry the clues to a map. That doesn’t restrict any number of clues to point to locations. They can point to one location or 9 locations for all we know.

        • JDA You are on the same page as I am. One location with objects to reference as assurances that one is in the right location.
          A second ” what we don’t know”
          We don’t know how long Forrest drove to get to WWWH.

          • Hi HDD,
            Why don’t you ask directly to Fenn about it?

            “Mr. Fenn, how long did you drive to get to WWWH?”

            “Thank you for asking, searcher, but from where? From my home or from the hotel I was staying on that day, I want to know.”

            Good luck, HDD.

            — MK

          • MajinKing you see my point for not asking Forrest.
            I am of the mind that Forrest would dodge any question that is properly formulated and presented.
            Why? Because it would narrow down the search area to a single state and possibly to say a 75 mile radius of the treasure’s location.

            HDD

          • Hi HDD,
            You’re missing my point. You said “We don’t know how long Forrest drove to get to WWWH.” You have to be more specific, like “We want to know how long Forrest drove to get to WWWH .” for example. How about taking his comment “8.25 miles North of Santa Fe” differently, like “82.5 miles” or 825 miles north of Santa Fe?”
            — MK

  22. My bad MajinKing, Sometimes I am a little presumptuous when I present an Idea.
    Some of the things I have noted when Forrest answers questions is:

    1) He couches his answers in a way that is open to further Interpretation and speculation.
    Example: “but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key”
    Imho this example has been misunderstood as to mean that the poem contains a keyword.
    Personally I think taking a small part of that sentence ( with a word that is key) out of context of the sentence is a mistake.
    From my point of view Forrest was pointing to the site as being in a relatively small area and as a possible reassurance to those looking at that area.
    We will not know who those folks were. My suggestion and hope is that those folks who were looking before Forest made that statement and sent him emails revisit that research. If they are no longer looking I would love to have a copy of their research.

    With that said MajinKing, how about: Forrest if I may be so bold as to ask a question.
    If I started from Santa Fe how long would it take me to drive to WWWH?
    Imho, Forest would avoid this question because the answer would be a huge clue to the treasure’s location. Given time to think about an answer I believe Forrest may come up with an answer that would point to many possibilities.

    Care to comment Forrest? 😉

    HDD

    • HDD, you are correct ff is not going to give any more clues that will narrow the area down. He will give a response of avoidance, or that says nothing at all. Believe me when I say, ff believes he has given away too many clues already. His plan was for some one, a long time from now to find it. If some finds it now, that’s ok, but he has this dream about it being discovered hundreds of years from now, and creating a conversation then about the Chase and himself. IMO Greg

      • Greg you hit the nail on the head.
        In a manner of speaking, this treasure is Forrests way of saying “I was here a hundred years from now. It’s his mark on the world.
        Handprints on rocks come to mind. Ummmmm.

        HDD

        • Hi HDD,
          I think I’ve already gave you two possible answers from Fenn. If you don’t think what I’m talking about, please read my previous comment again.
          — MK

    • HDD,

      I think fenn has answered the distance as best he could, already, long before the question was thought of.
      Look at it this way;
      We have N. of SF. and In the “mountains”. This basically keep the area in the RM’s and no where else in the USA.
      We have the Fenn family trips of 1600 miles each year [ yes, from TX ] yet this might indicate Canada is not involved [which later was confirmed]. a subtle indirect hint?
      We have the stories that concentrate on this same area… and can eliminate TX and other places talked about in the book… because of that information.

      Long before the Q&A’s, long before the ATF’s and so called clues; Not in Nevada, Utah, Idaho, Canada etc. One can surmise the chest is in one of the remaining states … even before we start to study the poem itself. fenn seemingly eliminated 44 states, and set an area of the RM’s as our target area, long before the book was published.

      All of this summarizing, thinking about what was stated in the book seems to have been confirmed by the ATF’s of 8 years. IF fenn was willing to do this, from the book alone, I would think the poem would finalize the rest, or at the very least, something from the book would whittle it down even more.
      My point is; maybe we need to ‘think’ about those things to understand how we can actually find the clues… rather than asking for more free bones to chew on.
      So, think of this as well. Is it ‘possible’ for fenn to eliminate any of the four remaining states?

      It might just be… we need to know something that connect those states with a clue or clues to understand how this all unfolds. Such as; does the Continental Divide have any involvement [ and why Idaho and Utah could easily be out of the equation]? Are more than one state involved, or their border / boundary areas. Is the poems clues only describing those areas ‘today’ or territories of yesteryears, line of thinking. I might be, he can’t eliminate anymore if he doesn’t want to mislead the actual clues… and say the chest in in this state or that state, yet a clue or clues start in another one, idea.

      • Seeker;

        On more than one occasion you have tried to equate the poem with times past. If WWWH were to refer to the last ice age – about 21000 years ago – the ice sheet was called the Laurentide Ice Sheet – Google it. A map of this ice sheet shows that it extended only to the upper half of Montana, and one spot in the northwest part of Wyoming. If your “Time” theory is correct, this would eliminate most of Wyoming, all of Colorado and all of that portion of New Mexico that is 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe.

        So why COULD WWWH equate to this ice age? Well, as temperatures dropped, snow and ice were the norm. The “warm waters” no longer flowed – they were captured in snow and ice and held captive in the massive ice sheet. Warmer times were needed to release them – warm waters HAD halted or stopped. Thanks for the theories Seeker – JDA

        • It’s a great theory, brilliant theory, and at one time a stand alone theory… but it’s faulted. As you said; it eliminates “NM” the very northern tip of CO and most of WY… So IF this was to be where WWH… there are none in NM. You would have to go back 1/2 a million years to find one glacier cap in NM. that I have found.

          So in theory… which millennium do we concentrate on?
          11-12 thousand yrs ago, or five hundred thousand. If we keep going back far enough, we’ll be sitting on ice-ball Earth.

          Now if fenn was referring to glacier type of water{s} that are not really glaciers [ by definition ] but simply pack snow on the mountain peaks… WWH might be more about a season, rather than a glacier, as a clue reference… in this case; Never Summer Mountain fits the bill well. Another-words… the idea of WWH would be frozen or snow cap mountains peaks, but only indicated by one place.

          Personally, and trust me I have tried ever assumable angel, Glaciers are not going to cut it.

          But…. what they left behind might… In this case I agree with ken that the entire poem is a riddle [ in theory ].
          The poem could be depicting a single location and its results of the ice-age or a glacier, but its not about the glacier so much as what that glacier left behind [ so “time” is the idea, not the clue]… Warm waters today.

          In this case, Waterton lake fit nicely. It has Borders involved, it has a creek; meaning narrow passage involved, it has HLnWH involved, it has “go in peace” involved.

          LOL are any of these ideas correct? Who knows… but welcome to the mind of ~ the Seeker…

          • You make some good points Seeker. Which Ice Age, if any is important? One can only guess.

            At the end of the most recent one, as the glaciers were retreating, man was making his appearance in/on North America – This MAY be significant – Who knows? Just a thought – JDA

          • JDA,

            Again, If using a glacier for WWH… there needs to be one somewhere below SF. {“… nearly all are N. of SF…” comment}
            If that happen ages ago, the more recent ice-age [11,000 years ago] is not usable for WWH as a clue reference to a glacier.

            IF… it can be twisted a bit… “begin it where” in time “warm waters halt” can be the idea of the “waters” left behind in liquid form… a lake.
            “and take it in the canyon down”may be describing the land depression for the lake to form. NF,BTFTW allows the the thought of how the lake was formed [over time] and why it is today. This could also reference “just HLnWH” being the reason for the lake.. a glacial weight depressing the land and melting leaving WWH or the idea of the first clue being possibly a lake.
            ‘”Time” would be relevant, but not so much the glacier as a clue… the lake, in this theory would be the actual answer to the clue.

            Sooo… are we looking for a lake? which there are many below SF? and Comprehensive knowledge of geography tells us how the “lake” was formed, and now possibly giving a location of that lake?

            I don’t see ‘clues’ as individual places. I see clues as combining [ or being contiguous ] what is attempted to be relayed in the poem. A clue is information.. it doesn’t always have to be a place. But it can be of ‘time’ on a geographical, and yes, geological scale.

            In this case; begin it where, just means in time past… the answer to the clue’s reference would be ‘a lake’… and why those who ‘may have’ been at the correct lake didn’t know why that particular lake is a clue, line of thinking. So what did they do… they left the poem looking for a canyon, possibly not realizing the canyon is in the lake..NF far, but can’t walk there… physically or through the time it took to create the lake.
            HoB’s reference, in this case, would give certainty of the correct lake… you are below the hoB at the correct lake… out of the many.

            All the clues [ regardless of how many ] in stanza 2 can be of one place.
            All of stanza’s 3 clues can be of the same place, just in a more specific spot. hence, your destination being of a small spot…in a huge location.

            It’s that small scale idea. No miles between clues. No alternative transportation. Just knowledge of geography [ no, that is not specialized knowledge ] and reading the poem other-than a stomp mode only.

            In theory….

      • “And I looked up words, definitions of words, and changed them, and went back and rebooted.”
        “The results are what I wanted out of that poem.”

        *Do you think somebody will try hard enough, search hard enough, search long enough that they can find the chest?*
        “It’s not a matter of trying. It’s a matter of thinking. Read the poem. Read the book, because there are some hints in the book that will help you with clues in the poem. But sure, people have figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked right past the treasure chest.”

        • Ahhhh so true Ken.

          The statement you mention tells us a lot.
          Like some chasers have had boots on the ground around the time that statement was made. Who those folks are will remain a mystery as deep as the poem. I plan to visit the early archives of this blog and others to see if those people shared their wonderings.

          HDD

          • HDD…that was from the Eeds interview 2016. Even though Fenn says all the information is in the poem over and over… he still says to read the book(TTOTC) because there are hints that will help with the clues. Go figure…

          • Ken,
            The catch might be “find” in that comment.
            The poem holds all the “Information” to “find” the chest. I supposed it can be argued that the information are the “clues” that need following only for the actual task of discovering where the chest lays in wait.
            Deciphering the clue might be a horse of a different color.

            Many would like to believe that the idea of “certainty of the location beforehand” means WWWH… or the blaze or the chest.
            Yet we’re told there are many all over the RM’s. It might be the book helps ‘with the ‘clues’ by giving up the location of the ‘clues’… and not so much deciphers the clues references… that’s our job once we have the correct location of all the clues.

            However, in an example the other day, I used “wood” to help understand where “in there” might pertain to, as well as, how we got to a certain location… using a map… told of from the book.

            In theory; it would take decades to eliminate the idea of “wood” and “In there” IF we didn’t know about the “right” map. Yet even without that story… it would still be plausible. It would just take much much longer to nail it down. BUT, that doesn’t answer what WWH refers to… we still need to figure it out, just like all the other clues.

            So here’s a question to ponder; Are we to get the feeling, ‘what took me so long’ at the beginning or the end of this challenge?
            Personally, I see 300,000 folks running all over the RM’s guessing what and where the correct WWH is [the poem has done its job well]… and very little if any thought to a location of all the clues. Other than guessing 4 different states.

            IMO, “All the information” might only be about the discovery / retrieval / the “find” of the chest, only. That is what the poem was designed/created to do.

            No background, No 9 clues, No Mountains know? [ No certainty of the location, beforehand for the “path” to be direct??] Nope, Nope…

            How do ‘you’ nail down the first clue??

          • Seeker,
            “How do ‘you’ nail down the first clue??”

            With proof! And based on your previous comments, when/if you find it, you will broadcast it… Not good.

          • Dejoka,

            HA! If I find it… I’m gonna make ya’ll sweat it out. Ain’t saying a word.
            LOL.. who’s to say I ha…. ummm, whew… that was close.

          • Seeker,
            I’m impressed with your restraint and congratulations with your break from the pack, you can now move on to clue number two with only a few competitors just five years ahead of you.

            Good luck.

      • If I were to hide a treasure like Fenn did, I would like to select a place close to a major river, in the grandest canyon, at the end of a beautiful trail, along one of the steepest creek, so that anybody can get to it easily but nobody can see and find it because it is hidden from casual sight.

        IF I want to go down the history as a person who will be long remembered by everybody, why do I want to choose an open place close to a small river, in not so famous canyon, at the middle of rough-and-hard-to-walk trail, along a no-name creek, so nobody can find it even with all the efforts of searchers?

        I’m trying to think like Fenn here. If I were him……how would I do it?

        — MK

        • MajinKing,

          Now that is a interesting topic for discussion.
          ” If I were FF how would I do it?”
          Whatcha think Dal?

          HDD

        • Honestly guys.. there is no topic, really.
          fenn knew where he wanted to hide the chest at first thought.
          Regardless of what we think the place should look like, or where we would like to think it is… historical, vista view, untouched land, famous known place…

          He said; he was going to make it work…
          I don’t think he spent a second on thinking about; where’s the prettiest place in the RM’s… or the hardest to get to. IMO the place was on his mind long before the thought of the hunt.
          Unfortunately, we may never know why the place is special to him. As he stated; he removed that from his bio.

          [Paraphrasing the following, you should look up the info for yourselves for accuracy]
          When somebody finds that treasure chest…people will be surprised when they find out where it is.
          When the treasure is found, everyone who did not find it is gonna say “Why didn’t I think of that?”
          The one who find it will earn it, not feel lucky and ask what took me so long?

          My point is; we may already know where it is [ at least the location ]… we’re just not thinking the right thoughts.

          • What year was that 13 yr old born?
            If we are to look at the poem in such a manner… the time period seems important.
            2000’s
            1950’s
            1930’s, a hundred years before that?

            I mean, how many kids today will rent a horse and go into the mountains in the attempt to find a 100 plus year old trail, just for the fun.
            LOL how many kids at age 13 even know of L&C?
            Better yet, how many kids today wash dishes… by hand.. lol
            Fenn’s 13 yr old mind was/is much different than today’s kids.
            But I’ll add this thought; what do kids think about when it come to 100, 1000, 10,000 yrs down the road.
            I think, I would start there and work backwards.

    • Frank: I’m not trying to discourage you at all –I’m trying to give you some feeling for how hard it is to read your posts. Periods seem like such a small thing to ask for in return for the clarity they provide. After all, you use dashes a lot, so you don’t have an aversion to symbols. And tell you what, if you have a thing against periods, just use dashes instead for your sentence breaks — I can work with that.

      The point of all this is that I *am* making an effort to understand you and offer feedback on your ideas, otherwise I’d just ignore your posts.

      • Zap I know what you mean – even I have trouble reading what I write – but its time to move on- any way after all how many times can you say north of hob is where all the clues are – I might be back later on who knows – one thing I will say though is – that to me it seems that you need to read and study real well what the poem is telling you – as always your friend — frank

        • I like your new style of writing Frank. The dashes between sentences are a real help to me. The poem is hard enough for me, I have no energy left for figuring out jumbled posts. Thanks. Keep it up. Your ideas are good.

        • Excellent, Frank: much easier to read. I hope you’ll continue to post when the feeling grabs you.

          I’m not as interested about your decryption of directions from clue to clue as I am with how you used the poem to come up with your WWWH. (After all, if it turns out you have the wrong WWWH, then everything that follows is obviously meaningless.) No need to reveal your WWWH (assuming that you haven’t in the past); I’d rather offer feedback on your *methodology* for choosing your WWWH.

          • ok zap you got me going now-ff hides one clue with another not far but to far to walk- not only pertains to hob – but to the whole poem – if your wwwh is not far from santa fe – that is wwwh – if there is a creek meeting with another body of water – that is wwwh – if the creek and the body of water is at the bottom of a canyon – that is wwwh if there is a high way in the canyon going west that is wwwh – if wwwh is below hob that is the real wwwh

          • Hi Frank: okay, so if I understand you correctly the “proof in the pudding” that you have the right WWWH depends on later clues being nearby, e.g. canyon down, home of Brown, waters high, etc. In other words, you looked for a general location where answers to all (or most) of the clues were relatively nearby. Many searchers take this approach, and certainly in the beginning I, too, looked for the geographic, all-in-one location in the Rockies where all the clues could be found in close proximity. Unfortunately, I don’t think this is how Forrest designed it.

            I believe he expected that WWWH could be solved independently of the later clues — that it could be confidently “nailed down” without having yet solved home of Brown, no place for the meek, end is ever drawing nigh, and so forth. It certainly sounds like that’s exactly what the early searchers did: they solved the first 2 clues, but then got stumped. It tells me they didn’t figure out home of Brown (among other things).

            What tidbits can we learn from this? Well, for one thing it means that if you have a home of Brown for your WWWH that would be obvious to anyone that had that same WWWH, then apparently that hoB is wrong. Otherwise, the early searchers would have solved it, too, and therefore Forrest would have said they solved more than two clues. (The only other explanations are either that home if Brown is the second clue, or it isn’t a clue at all.)

          • zap wwwh has nothing to do with hob as far as being hob – wwwh and hob are about 60 miles apart from each other – wwwh tells you where to turn west – it takes you off the road you are on – and it puts you on the right road to hob – hob is a place that near and dear to him that is a hint or clue what you want to call it – meaning that hob is a large land formation of a deer wwh is a place where 2 bodys of water meet – and one is colder then the other – that’s wwwh – waters high has a place of its own – so does the blaze -in the wood – where the people that found the first 2 clues – messed up was they didn’t know what waters high was or meant – this clue is at the north end of this body of water – that’s what gets you going north to the treasure chest – just like wwwh takes you off the road you are in – and sends you west to hob

          • Hi frank,
            I think you’re disregarding most of the previous comments on this site for the last 8 years up to this point by the searchers who explored the locations and landmarks on their boots on the ground and/or spent long hours thinking and analyzing about their solves in their armchairs. I like the new and fresh ideas about the chase discussed here but if you’re trying to establish your own theory, please be more specific and give more reasoning and analyses behind your theory, not just insisting only on your solve.
            For example, you’re mentioning a lot about water, directions, and distances, but I can hardly see any of your reasoning behind all your theories to help understand your way of thinking. If you say, “sends you west to hob”, you can at least give your explanation why you think you have to go west to get to the HOB.
            Am I asking too much? I’m trying to work towards the positive and productive discussions for everybody. Good luck in your search.
            — MK

  23. Frank…I always read your posts and like them. I find no fault even though I do not agree sometimes. Keep plugging and keep posting….

  24. Hi ya Seeker,
    Long time no see. Just woke up and having coffee. A little hard to think this morning.
    Had a storm front move in and we got more than our allotment of rain. Pardon me for being slow but ATF’s?

    If my google foo serves me correctly it is 709 miles from Billings Montana to Santa Fe New Mexico. Taking into account FF’s comment of 8.25 miles. Leaves with an area of 700.75 miles.
    North to south. East to west ( the width of the RM’s) is just to complicated to calculate right now. ( coffee is not working) I believe you get the idea. That is a lot of ground to cover.
    So in essence we can eliminate the ideal of the treasure being more than say 710 north of Santa Fe. ( bye bye 825…) To the best of my limited knowledge we can eliminate Colorado.
    I do not recall any references to that particular state. Correct me if I am wrong plz, I have a three year gap in my chase knowledge. However being the only state that no mention is made of it is remotely possible that Co is the starting state.
    I have a hypothesis that I can not expound upon here. In time I hope to have my office up and going so I can do some serious research. You raise interesting points that have stimulated so thought on the chase.
    Thank you

    HDD

  25. Good morning to all,

    Some food for thought:
    ” Begin it where warm waters halt ”
    ” I did it in one afternoon ”
    What does this tell us?

    HDD

    • HDD;

      Are you suggesting that it will take you a full morning to get from WWWH to where you start your hike to where Indulgence is secreted? Sorry, I just do not feel that the two quotes are connected. JMO – JDA

      • Jake: he’s no doubt referring to the ATF where he said (paraphrased from memory): “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in an afternoon.”

        • “did it” and “was done in one afternoon” are different.
          “did it” means started and finished.
          “done in one afternoon” could also mean it was finished in one afternoon which means he may have started before afternoon.

          • Thank you Zap,

            Good point Jake. Who likes math?
            Rises at 6am leaves in car at say 7 am. Drives till noon.
            difficult to say if any stops for fuel during ride.
            Est speed of travel?
            Reminds me of a Pink Floyd song.
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3mtOeIZfQqo
            Enjoy!

            And Alice says welcome to my world as she dives into the rabbit hole.

            HDD

    • HDD,
      Does not say much since the “I did it in one afternoon”, is not what f has said. That would be how you interpreted that ATF, that interpretation does not cover the ATF, or it’s possibilities. So, if you are asking what your post says to me, it says that we begin something where warm waters halt, and, it was done in one afternoon. It’s the same interpretation that Zap has used in his answer to Jake, but like he said, he is paraphrasing.
      If you are trying to ask what these things say:
      “Begin it where warm waters halt”, and,
      “. I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.”
      The first is obvious, the second, we do not know if he is saying he was done in one afternoon, or if he is saying he was done in one trip. We don’t know what he means when he uses the word ‘one” in this matter. It’s either “trip”, or “afternoon”. We could add some other ATF’s:
      When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?
      Thank you Curtis
      The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f, and,
      To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete, and,
      “It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. As for who else knows, I’m the only one.
      It sounds like it was not a one day thing. So, ‘one” “afternoon” would seem wrong and that he was trying to imply that it was done in “one trip”, not one afternoon.
      It also tells me that he was walking before the canyon. And that walking starts at the first clue. Since all clues must be followed, no other way. So, he took two separate trips, walked the clues, was finished on the last trip in the afternoon., IMO.
      Even if you believe that there are two trips done in one afternoon, you still are left with walking the clues, because there are no shortcuts, you must follow all the clues, and even given the familiarity of the area, his answer was to still follow all the clues, no other way. But if you do believe it was done in two trips in one afternoon, you have the, go down a canyon, then back up, then down again comment to deal with, and that makes it sound like that was not the case. In compiling all the ATF’s on this topic, you are only left with the thought that when he said “one” he was talking about “trips” and not ‘afternoon”. It does not work out if you think one afternoon, but everything works out if you think one trip.

      • Poisonivey;

        You state -“It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. Please provide source for this – Whether a quote or not. I have NEVER seen Forrest say this. You appear to be creating “stuff” to support YOUR position – JDA

        • It’s funny how the quotes from Fenn get more and more twisted as time goes by. I don’t expect it from searchers that have been around here for a while though.

        • JDA–
          Actually P.I. said that Forrest made two trips “from” his car—-not “in” his car as you have stated.PI said in a post.

          • JDA— my aplogies, P.I. does say later in the post when quoting “in my car”—so you are right. Just ignore me. lol

        • JDA, what do you mean, “You appear to be creating “stuff” to support YOUR position”?
          If you said that the statement is from a reporters point of view, I would believe what you are saying. The thing is, that is the view it comes from. F did say it, but the only info that is now available is from a reporters point of view. But I know he said it, so I feel I can post it as an ATF. It goes with the point of following all the clues, same day, two trips, etc… Here’s your “source’ for proving my “position”. (geeezusss)

          Rose Minutaglio July 31, 2017 03:11 PM People explains interview
          “I never said it was buried. I’ve avoided that word. I hid it. I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t buried. I just didn’t want to give that as a clue,” he previously told PEOPLE. “It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know.”f

          The last 13 words are wrong as we all know, today. Zap and JDA know. One side of the coin JDA, still didn’t work out well for the Germans.
          Jake, you trying to imply something? Spit it out Boy!
          And JDA, you still have not given any answer to this:
          You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
          No I don’t madam, sorry. F
          Here, add this:
          No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure. f
          Do you need the definitions to “subtle” and un-subtle JDA? Maybe you should ask Jake, since everything he reads is “twisted”. I guess that would go under subtle, so maybe not.

        • Look it up JDA it’s quote the interviewer, from when fenn was interviewed when Randy went missing.
          Before barking double check. I have the link.. but lets see if you can find it.

          Here’s a hint; Question; who else knows…

          Now, how accurate the quote is another question.

          • it doesn’t fit his scenario. He does not answer the ATF or anything that goes against his solve. One side of the coin…

          • I found it, and it is as Poison stated it above. This quote is from a reporter, and not Forrest, as far as I know, and is counter to several other quotes directly from Forrest. Yes, here is the quote:

            Who else knows where the treasure is buried?
            I never said it was buried. I’ve avoided that word. I hid it. I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t buried. I just didn’t want to give that as a clue. It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know…. but I question if these are Forrest’s words, or the words of a reporter – JDA

      • poisonivey,

        In my mind I see FF getting into his car driving from WWWH down the canyon and parking below the home of Brown. And walking from there.
        Another train of thought is that WWWH is the place FF was at i.e his home???

        Thanks

        HDD

        • But then, on his return trip, he skipped clues 1 and 2. He said, follow all the clues, no shortcuts. If his car is at clue 3 or 4, then his second trip shortcuts the first couple of clues. Cannot be. Need to rethink, unless you want to ignore what f is saying.

          • Hi JDA, I think searchers see something at the HOB, that they think could be the hiding spot. and they (drive towards it). I think that is a mistake, I think the chest is hidden between the HOB, and the place they want to drive to. I think a searcher needs to go (in the wood), at the HOB. IMO

          • Hi James;

            hoB is at the very beginning of the poem – at the end of stanza #1 – 3 lines after where we are told to “begin”

            There sure is a lot of poem left. I find it hard to believe that the TC is somewhere between hoB and the place that they wanted to drive to. JMO

            Good luck with your search – JDA

          • Hi JDA, What about getting the first two clues right, and walking past the other seven. There’s no reason why the other seven, can’t be at or near the HOB, right?

          • JDA,
            I don’t see hoB being at “the very beginning of the poem”.
            Or
            “at the end of stanza #1” as you stated above.

            I will read the poem again.
            hoB is in the second stanza, correct me if i’m wrong.

          • Hi Jake;

            I mis-typed – End of stanza #2 – Ya got me.

            OK – near the beginning of the poem – end of stanza #2 – out of 6, so, in the top 1/3 of the poem. I am sure you knew what I meant – but you are right, precision IS necessary. I will try to be more exact in the future.

            Thanks for pointing out my possible error – JDA

          • Thanks for contradicting yourself in your explanation JDA.

            JDA says: “Thanks for pointing out my possible error – JDA”

            Possible???
            Even when you error, you don’t admit it is.
            How sad and stubborn.

          • GEEEEZZZZ Jake what do you want?

            I made a mistake. I typed stanza #1 when I meant to type stanza #2 – I am Sorry – I Fu**ed up!!! I made a TYPO! Hope God will forgive me! Is it all that important? It is to you. You just HAVE to see JDA mess up. OK, I messed up.

            Is hoB being in stanza #2 not close to the beginning of the poem – It is to me.

            I am sure that you have NEVER mis-spoke Jake, but then we are not as perfect as you. JDA

          • Jake;

            Searchers do not sign on to see two guys throw darts at each other.

            So, You win Jake. You are a better blogger and a better searcher than I am, and I am sure that you will find Indulgence soon. Congratulations. JDA

          • It’s that you stated “possible error” when it was an absolute error and didn’t admit it like a man.
            Stop sending me nasty emails again when you don’t like what I say here.
            I think dal is taking notice.

          • It has nothing to do with a better searcher or blogger than you are. It always seems to be about you. You seem to care more about being a better blogger. I could care less.

            I will not find indulgence soon and neither will you.
            Your comments show exactly where you are coming from and I never said I would find indulgence soon. You have on many occasions said you will and I have all the quotes from you saved. Same ole same old.

            Would you care to talk about where warm waters halt?

          • You saved JDA’s post?

            Ha! Jake… If ya saving any of mine would you proof read and spellcheck them for me?

            By the way, did you save the one where you would eat your hat if the chest was not in water?

          • Zap im not picking on you- I think you are a real nice guy
            and easy to talk to – but didn’t you learn anything – from me in the past 2 days lol

          • Frank: you have to appreciate that since I believe I’ve known the answers to all 9 clues for months, I’m not looking for answers from anyone else. If I see obvious flaws in others’ solutions, and they are truly interested in constructive feedback (which I’ve found rarely to be the case), then I’m willing to offer it. In your case, while you seem unwilling to admit it, your starting point in deciphering the poem is Santa Fe. That is to say, you are currently only interested in pursuing solutions that are in northern New Mexico specifically because Forrest said the treasure chest is more than 66,000 links north of Santa Fe. I, on the other hand, have never considered New Mexico to be in play because solving the poem — and JUST the poem — does not put be in that state.

          • Zap & HDD,
            I agree with the first 2 sentences also.

            Frank,
            The only thing I agree with you on, is that HOB is West of WWWH.

            We all see this as it fits our solve and if we are confident, nothing can be said to change our mind. We just have to be realistic about actually having the correct solve.

          • Wait! Whaaat??

            Zap ~ ‘you have to appreciate that since I believe I’ve known the answers to all 9 clues for months, I’m not looking for answers from anyone else. If I see obvious flaws in others’ solutions, and they are truly interested in constructive feedback (which I’ve found rarely to be the case),’

            All nine clues for months?
            Does that include your last trip as well?
            If you see obvious flaws…?… you’re willing to offer your feedback. On what? Really, on what -?- your failed searches?

            You can add “I believe” all day long to anything, it still makes it BS unless ya got something to show for it.
            You stated; ~ ‘I, on the other hand, have never considered New Mexico to be in play **because solving the poem** — and JUST the poem — does not put be in that state.’

            A solve is absolute, undoubted.. and retrievable. So you choose not to retrieve the chest?

            Dang, the size of your lightsaber puts Luke Skywalker’s to shame.. Enjoy your ego trip while it last.

          • Seeker:

            “All nine clues for months?” Yes, to my satisfaction. The solution is either correct, or it isn’t. And if it isn’t I’ll move on to other things.

            “Does that include your last trip as well?” No. 8 out of 9 doesn’t cut the mustard.

            “If you see obvious flaws…?… you’re willing to offer your feedback. On what? Really, on what -?- your failed searches?”

            Why, the only flaws that anyone CAN point out when they don’t have the treasure chest — violations of Forrest’s ATF statements.

            “You can add “I believe” all day long to anything, it still makes it BS unless ya got something to show for it.”

            Yep, absolutely. Same as anyone else who has their own end-to-end solution that they haven’t executed.

            “So you choose not to retrieve the chest?”

            I’ll make the trip to retrieve it when it’s retrievable. It hasn’t been for many weeks, nor will it be for many months. And save the snarky inclusion of some irrelevant Forrest remark about retrieving the treasure in any weather — I know Forrest’s ATFs at least as well as you do, perhaps better.

          • Ha! I doubt better, Zap.

            So ya had eight out of nine clues solved [on your last trip], but now you have the ninth.
            Out of wildest of curiosity, you couldn’t figure it out in site?
            What brought the last clue to light at home that didn’t spark in the field?
            Better yet, what line in the poem is your last clue contained in?

            Has far as fenn’s comment about the weather and retrieval… for me .. that is only about the spot, not the path. If someone can’t get to the spot, it doesn’t matter if it’s easy to reach for the chest or not.
            Fenn also said; If you can find the chest it won’t be a big job to get it… so that also relates to the actual reaching for it, idea.

          • “Ha! I doubt better, Zap.”

            Like I said, perhaps. You might take into consideration that over the years I’ve typed in TTOTC and most of TFTW, and also manually typed in over 180-odd Forrest ATF’s and personally (and tediously) transcribed many hours of videos. So I know the material very well.

            “So ya had eight out of nine clues solved [on your last trip], but now you have the ninth.”

            Well, of course I believed I had 9 out of 9 on the last trip — I don’t go “searching” without answers to all 9. 😉 But if my current (I would call it final) solution has the right secret sauce, then I was actually closer to the correct answer two trips ago (but being physically close means nothing).

            “Out of wildest of curiosity, you couldn’t figure it out in site?”

            No, I couldn’t. Physically being there makes no difference; in fact, I’d say it’s actually a deterrent. It’s not about doing, it’s about thinking. Thoughts come at their own speed — you can’t force yourself to think the right thoughts, especially under time pressure.

            “What brought the last clue to light at home that didn’t spark in the field?”

            Thinking a thought about the poem that I hadn’t in the prior 3 years.

            “Better yet, what line in the poem is your last clue contained in?”

            Well, as you might imagine, that’s a pretty critical piece of information, so I’d rather stay quiet about that. But I will say that my final clue is not constrained to just one line of the poem — which was the primary seismic shift in my thinking.

            “If someone can’t get to the spot, it doesn’t matter if it’s easy to reach for the chest or not.”

            That’s true, of course. But more specifically in my case, if the 9th clue can be obscured by snowfall, even if I know fairly specifically where to find it, I’m not going to put myself at such a needless disadvantage. That would be akin to a searcher who requires the sun to illuminate the blaze (or in some way uses the sun to solve a clue) carrying out their search on a cloudy day.

            “Fenn also said; If you can find the chest it won’t be a big job to get it… so that also relates to the actual reaching for it, idea.”

            Yes — I believe locating the chest (which of course involves being able to physically navigate to it) is the only deterrent to retrieval.

          • Zap… did I just read that your next search may be your last? When do you expect to make the final journey? You will be missed… I like your posts.

          • Hi Ken, I am not Zap, but I think what he means is that he hopes that the TC lies where his last clue takes him, making that the “last trip”, if not, then back to the drawing board. And Good luck Zap, I think you are in the right state, the right part of the state, and the right forest. You probably know as most do, the pain of having to wait 6 months through winter. so in my best Bill Clinton: “I feel your pain”

            I do think that if a person has the 6th clue, the rest fall like dominos so quickly that it is only a matter of minutes though. So I don’t think you have the 6th clue, If you are successful, please post the 6th after your search, because I am totally at a loss on the sixth.. I think ff, on his quest to make the riddle in the poem difficult, went a little more esoteric than intended on the sixth and probably the rest too, making it near impossible. but that is just me.

          • That’s okay Writis… I like everyone’s posts. My comment was more in line with Zap stating “… I’ll move on to other things.”, which seems rather final either way. For the record… I believe Zap will continue after his next trip because he is invested in solving hard problems… we’ll see though.

          • Writis… your statement about the sixth clue and the difficulty from there to the end does not seem to jive with the info available. Fenn has stated that the clues get progressively *easier*… not more difficult or impossible. I believe that the failure rate is due to the difficulty of tying the first two clues to the rest of the poem… nothing more, nothing less. Folks have figured them(first two clues) out, but I think have failed to *learn*/think the right thoughts from there on.

          • Ken,

            Yep, supposedly things should start falling in line as the solve progresses.. IF you have the correct understand of the prior clues, line of thinking.
            This idea that the clues get harder seems to be more about searchers having the first few clues wrong, but can’t admit it.
            Zap is a perfect example… I’m not picking on the guy, but his idea is; he will not change his WWH from any reason because he know hes right… so the excuse it, later clues must be harder.
            It goes against fenn’s comments that they get a bit easier, and the need to have the first clue nailed down…and.. if you don’t find the chest, go back to the first clue. I think the last comment is about, reevaluating your WWH, not just go back and start stomping from that point.

          • Hi Ken, yes I do know of ff’s comment about it getting easier. I call this the “grasshopper” effect.

            if you have ever had a teacher or professor tell you that some subject area of knowledge is “easy”… that is the same idea. Yes of course it is easy for the teacher, not so much for the student though, the “master” is looking from a perspective of from within outward, the “student” is looking from a perspective of from outward to within. ff is a cool guy and all, but suffers the same fate as most of the rest of us, being human. He relates things from his perspective… as we all do. I think no less of him.

            I also believe many “searchers” suffer from “perspectivitis” they relate the riddle in the poem with their own experience, rather than from ff’s experience.

            A searcher from the city, thinks the TC is 500 ft from a road or in a city park, because that person has never been more than 500 ft from a road sort of thing.

          • Writis… I appreciate the *grasshopper* to *master* analogy and your concept in regards. I just don’t believe for a second that is the situation here. Fenn’s a pretty crafty fellow and has sure made his mark with his Chase idea and has taken it a step beyond by making himself available to the masses. Folks linger on every word he mutters hoping that something he says will be meant for them…or that it is a magical hint of some sort that no one else will notice. Nothing wrong with that I guess…but only a fool would bet on that being the case.
            The overall consistency of Fenn’s comments logically point to the likelihood that the first two clues are the major stumbling block in this problem… elsewise there would have been significantly more progress since early on. I would put more money on the first clue being the actual guillotine to a solve being that folks have historically not understood it 100%. I think Fenn just needs to be consistent with what he says for the most part and he can be honest as be…. because he did the hard part right at the first clue.

          • Hi Ken, one can verify that indeed the “grasshopper” effect is happening. Since as you say the first two clues have been correctly solved, yet they were solved early on. (and most likely extremely early, since ff would not have mentioned it right after it happened, giving the “person/s” a huge heads up) If it were “progressively” easier… the times in between solving those and 3&4, and then 5&6 etc would be progressively shorter… in fact, the exact opposite is happening. even more so, ff has mentioned “several” more people getting 1&2 correct. That sure makes it sound backward… 1&2 sound like they are much easier in that case. the evidence is backing up the grasshopper effect by shear and over whelming numbers.

          • Ok Writis… we can put any label on it you would like. *Grasshopper* it is/or not. The problem is still the same… folks have deciphered/figured out/whatever the first two clues… and have not progressed beyond that. Why?
            Just because those folks figured that out doesn’t mean they knew what to do with that information. They got close…but did not figure out how to tie that info to the next clue. I believe the guy when he says solving the first clue is metaphorically half way…and that the clues get progressively easier. If we cannot take advice from Fenn… there is no point to any of it.

            “Nothing about it will be accidental.”
            “We shall not cease from our exploration, and at the end of all our exploring, will be to arrive where we started, and know the place for the first time.”

            This suggests a steep learning curve that all hinges upon an arduous journey to discovering not so much where(because folks have been there), but the *full story* behind what exactly defines the starting point in terms of the rest of the clues.

          • Hi Ken: RE: “did I just read that your next search may be your last?”

            Yep, it’ll be my last (I know — famous last words). I’ll go some time in the spring after the snow has cleared. If the chest isn’t where I think it is, I’ll toss in the towel, accept defeat, and move on to a different challenge. Nearly 4 years working one problem is long enough. Thank you for saying you’ve enjoyed my posts — I certainly read all of yours!

          • Zap;

            First off, I wish you well in your search in the spring.

            Next, IF you do not find Indulgence, and decide to leave the searsh, I for one, will miss your input. You have put in a heck of a lot of research, time and effort. Your database has to be one of the very best. Hope you pass it on to someone if you do leave the search. JDA

          • Zap – an after thought – If you do leave, any way that you could make your database available for public use, or publish it, and sell it to interested searchers?

            Think about it – it might bring in a buck or two – all of the work is done already – might as well make it pay for itself – a bit – JDA

          • Hi ken — responding to a different point of yours in this thread:

            “Fenn has stated that the clues get progressively *easier*… not more difficult or impossible. I believe that the failure rate is due to the difficulty of tying the first two clues to the rest of the poem… nothing more, nothing less.”

            I think Forrest probably figures the first clue is the hardest (thus the “metaphorically speaking” ATF), but he probably (I would say “apparently”) underestimated the difficulty of “Not far, but too far to walk.” I can see his reasoning: when trying to solve WWWH, you have a vast area to consider (with its 10 billion blazes), but once you’ve nailed down WWWH, the geographical scope is reduced to a tiny fraction of the original four state span. Marriage of the remaining clues to the map should theoretically be an order of magnitude easier.

            Except (as Writis pointed out) the dominoes didn’t continue to fall once folks solved the first two clues so long ago. Progress ground to a halt. I think that’s because NF, BTFTW is actually a harder connection to make than WWWH. Many perhaps hand-waved it away as a non-clue and went searching for their home of Brown. If my interpretation of that seemingly innocuous line is correct, then ignoring it leads to failure 100% of the time.

          • Zap… I like how you wrote up your comment in a clear image. I’m not knocking what Writis is trying to say… nor what your message says. I have been in that same camp myself. The logic behind what I believe is simple. Folks have figured out the first two clues and have been close. However they went on by the remaining seven clues. Think about that. OK…enough thinking. Those folks did not have the first clue *nailed* down. Just because they got there doesn’t mean they totally understood the *importance* of the first clue. I bet the numbers are fairly significant for how many folks have been *there*… and yet no one gets it. Why? And, Fenn can still say it is metaphorically half way, and things should get easier…. after they nail it down. There’s a reason…
            You’re not quitting…

          • I think the reason why Zap says he will quit after his next spring trip is because he thinks he knows where the treasure is and will retrieve it.
            Yes I will eat my hat if he finds it next spring.

          • Hi JDA — thanks for the well wishes for my next BOTG, and good luck to you as well in 2019.

            Yes, it’s been a lot of work, but it’s been a fun challenge. If nothing else, tasking the brain cells pretty much non-stop for 40-odd months should help keep any Alzheimer’s in my future at bay a little longer. 😉

            As for the computer files I’ve generated, I have a database of ATFs, but I’m sure JCM’s collection of quotes is far more thorough than mine. Don’t know how many of the videos he has transcribed — I’ve done quite a few, though mostly just those portions that seem to have Chase-relevance. Theoretically more useful to someone would be having computer searchable versions of TTOTC (heavily annotated) and TFTW (not complete, but I intend to finish typing it in this winter). But I don’t think I can redistribute those (even free of charge): I’m pretty sure that would be in violation of Forrest’s copyrights.

            I’ve got an Excel spreadsheet of quadrangle names and Chase-relevant place name notes for all the 7.5-minute topos in the search zones of Montana (1105), Wyoming (1265), and the portion of Colorado north of 38.75 degrees latitude (620). It includes all the Browns I found (or brown variants like Bruin, Browne, chestnut, maroon, etc.), warm/hot springs, Meeks and Meekers, wise, rich/Richard, blaze, blazon, sun, Nye, wood, sheep, lamb, Fenn, and so forth.

            I can’t see charging anyone for any of these — I built them to assist my own clue solving and to help keep my thoughts organized.

          • Zap;

            Thanks for your reply. You are probably modest when it comes to your database vs JCM’s.

            You may be right about the transcribed books – you might get in touch with Forrest and get his views on having a searchable version available – Who knows?

            Again, good luck. JDA

  26. Ken,
    I need to reread the TTOTC again to refresh my memory.
    Currently I still have a decent to do list on my house. Doing a rehab can be fun but the work seems to never end.

    Thanks
    HDD

    • Writis…

      The sixth clue is where the Leprechauns live and bury their gold when it is not at the end of a Rainbow….Hope that helps!

      Billy

  27. Hi guys,

    Does it matter whether he made a single trip or two separate trips in one afternoon? If he said two, then it was two. I think what it matters are:
    1) Fenn made two separate trips (with 22 pounds treasure first and 20 pounds chest next in his backpack) from his car to the hiding place.
    2) He went down the canyon first and came up, and went down the canyon again and came up to his car. He was 80 years old when he hid the treasure, and it was not easy for him. As I mentioned before if Fenn had to go up the creek first to hide the treasure, he couldn’t have made it, I’m pretty sure of it.
    3) That’s why IMO he wrote “From there it’s no place for the meek,” and “The end is ever drawing nigh;” to tell us it would take some time to get to the end of the trail on the creek where you can find the blaze.
    4) Also the return path after you retrieve the chest should be the same as the path going down, and it would be twice as hard since you have 42 pounds on your back and coming up the NPFTM creek. IMO the next two lines describe this situation, “There’ll be no paddle up your creek, Just heavy loads and water high.” Even though you’re carrying 42 pounds on your back there is no other way for you to take back to your car in the parking lot.
    5) It also doesn’t matter whether he walked all the way from the WWWH to the hiding place or from his car after he put in (his car) below the home of Brown. IMO

    — MK

      • MK, IMO ff had to park at the, Put IN. To cross whatever body of water he crossed. Whether he waded it or floated it. From that point on there are several comments about water and what to do. Greg

        • Hi Greg,
          The guy mentioned in the news posted by pdenver below was in his 30s, but he drowned to death while he was crossing a stream. Carrying a floater in addition to the 20 or so pounds of weight in his back was IMO nearly impossible for Fenn. IMO the next couple of clues regarding the water are not related to the water. Please google “up the creek without a paddle” and you will be able to find out the real meaning of that clue.
          — MK

          • MK, simply means you cant go up the creek, a paddle will do you no good, meaning it is too swallow or dry, or the water is too fast to paddle up. Tells me to cross at slow water. If you go too far down stream you cant come back that way. Greg

      • maginking there is no reply any more above so ill answer your question here – you ask why I say west to home of brown – take it in means go in the canyon from wwwh the only canyon that there is is west – there is no other way to turn but west–there are no other canyons or highways to turn but there – take it in is to go in the canyon and it goes west to home of brown

        • MK if you don’t know what is wwwh or home of brown you will never under stand and I can tell by the explain above about no paddle that you need to study more about the subject in the poem

          • zap the only clues that are not contiguous are wwwh and hob – the rest of them are and yet if I remember correct from hob and all the clues being in between the tc its still about 20 miles apart

          • frank ~ ‘the only clues that are not contiguous are wwwh and hob’

            How can that be? fenn said the ‘clues’ are contiguous. If that doesn’t mean all the clues, then the comment; the clues are in ‘consecutive order’ would only mean ‘some’ of the clues… right?

            That’s like say; fenn followed the clues when he hid the chest, but not all the clues when he hid the chest.

            The clues are ‘the clues’ ~ nine of them that we are told of. How in the world can ‘the clues’ mean anything else but the 9 clues?

        • Frank: you still haven’t given a good explanation for how you came up with your WWWH from the poem. Can you justify it without using later clues like home of Brown or water high? In other words, does it stand on its own?

          Your particular choice of home of Brown does not help your case if it is 60 miles away — unless you’re using a canyon that’s at least 60 miles long. Remember: the clues are contiguous.

          • Zap if the poem say there is a creek – and it s at the bottom of the canyon- and there is a highway- and this creek ends in the west at no paddle -which means that’s as far as it goes – and this creek meets with another body of water – that is colder then the creek and that’s the only canyon – that close from santa fe and it has every thing that ive said – and its not but far but to far to walk – I would think that’s wwwh

          • Zap ~ ‘Your particular choice of home of Brown does not help your case if it is 60 miles away…’

            regardless of who’s right or wrong on which mileage is correct.. don’t you have a mileage distance between your WWH reference and your hoB reference as well? So in both theories ya both have a large distance between clues.
            Even when fenn has implies if you’re walking long distances you’re walking too far.

            Maybe I’m bonkers…

          • Hi Seeker: regarding my take on Frank’s 60 miles, you wrote: “regardless of who’s right or wrong on which mileage is correct.. don’t you have a mileage distance between your WWH reference and your hoB reference as well?”

            I don’t happen to know what the distance is off the top of my head, but it isn’t 60 miles. I could easily walk it if I wanted to, but there is no reason to walk it when you can drive it.

            “So in both theories ya both have a large distance between clues.”

            How large is large? (How deep is a hole?) I just wrote above that I could walk it, and I could do so easily. But which would you rather do, walk or drive, when you’re carrying 42 lbs (or 20+ pounds twice)?

          • Zap,
            It doesn’t matter what I would want to do… walk or be lazy.
            frank has 60 plus miles.. you say you can walk your distance, but you don’t know the distances off hand? OK 2 miles, 5 miles, some where around 10 miles-?- between your two clues? But you’re correct it doesn’t matter…

            However, what matters is, what we have been told; He followed the clues… he walked less than a few miles… made two trips from where he parked… took the most direct route ~ car via hidey spot… done in one afternoon.

            If you want to believe following the clues only means some of them at any point of the task, ok fine.
            But “the clues” are “the clues” [ 9 ] nine clues that we have been told to follow, no short cuts, no leaving out ingredients, no other way to his knowledge.
            Walk means walk, and tells all don’t go where an 80 yr old can’t go with a heavy back-pack [ does that not include the entire travel?] Not to mention folks on site; ~figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately “walked” past the treasure chest~ with just the two first clues.
            While the same and/or others went by the remaining clues. The only difference we know of about two different groups, searcher[s] is who was *500′ vs. 200′ from the chest.*

            Your last statement make no sense. you said; But which would you rather do, walk or drive, when you’re carrying 42 lbs (or 20+ pounds twice)?
            IF..IF you, in your solve starts at hoB [botg], as you have stated… what’s the Pffft about using a car to carry the weight? You say you only use the car from WWH to hoB.. right? But you don’t drive to the hide.. right?

            fenn has stated; If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.
            You have said this is nothing more than a guide line thought… I say it ‘must’ hold true to the idea that a car is not used with any clue, especially if ‘everyone’ including fenn has to follow “the clues” all 9 of them… taking the same route.

            I wonder what your comment would be IF fenn would answer this question; FF, Did you use your vehicle at, any point, when “following” the clues in the poem?

            If he stated No [ hypothetically ] would you say.. the question never stated “all” the clues and there’s an out?
            “Clues in the poem” are ‘the 9 clues’ there is no other possibility than an out right lie. I doubt fenn would have lied about; ” I did follow **the clues IN the poem** when I hid the treasure chest…”
            Even at the remote chance a clue was not completed at the time of hiding the chest.. it can’t be any clue in the first stanza. I doubt it could be a clue in stanza 3 either… the only logical assumption would be the blaze itself.

            Your last statement make no sense in regards to carrying 42lbs or use a car instead. That would mean he had to park closer to the “first clue” because you only use you car from WWH to get to hoB, as you have stated prior.

            Or, we can just take fenn at is word[s]… with no tomfoolery involved.

          • Hi Seeker: “… frank has 60 plus miles.. you say you can walk your distance, but you don’t know the distances off hand?”

            I could measure it, but frankly it’s not relevant to the discussion, and I don’t want to provide that as a clue to others who know or eventually figure out my WWWH.

            “OK 2 miles, 5 miles, some where around 10 miles-?- between your two clues? But you’re correct it doesn’t matter…”

            Let’s just say that it is far less than 10 miles. That 10-mile comment in TFTW has nothing to do with the Chase in my opinion — it is a red herring for folks who can’t figure out the “not far, but too far to walk” clue.

            “However, what matters is, what we have been told; He followed the clues…”

            Check.

            “he walked less than a few miles…”

            Check.

            “made two trips from where he parked… took the most direct route ~ car via hidey spot… done in one afternoon.”

            Check.

            “If you want to believe following the clues only means some of them at any point of the task, ok fine.”

            10-4. But I see reading on that it is NOT “ok fine” with you. You think the ATFs make that impossible, and I say they don’t.

            As you know, I follow all of them once, and if you must take two round trips, most of them twice. If you don’t park at WWWH (and I don’t), then there’s no point in going back to it between trip 1 and trip 2, right? I know you are unwilling to concede that Forrest might not have parked at WWWH because you feel the ATFs tell you that all clues must be walked (twice, if need be). I just interpret the ATFs differently.

            “Your last statement make no sense.”

            It makes perfect sense. It just doesn’t fit your paradigm because you don’t accept starting the walk anywhere other than WWWH. Look, I’m not really the outlier here in my thinking. Poll the folks here — I’m betting more than 30% keep driving from WWWH, and it wouldn’t surprise me if it’s more than 50%. So I’m not the only moron that feels the need to actually follow the poem’s instructions and remain in my car past WWWH.

            “IF..IF you, in your solve starts at hoB [botg], as you have stated… ”

            Careful: I have NOT stated that. My “put in” is not AT home of Brown, it is below it. Amusingly, home of Brown is the least important clue as far as I’m concerned because I don’t even need it. As far as I know, Forrest might not even consider it a clue, but rather a hint. Makes no difference to me.

            The whole point about the car is stupifyingly simple: would you walk from home to the treasure chest? No. You’d take the car as close as you could get to your ultimate destination, just as Forrest did (IMO). But really, do I need to add IMO? If Forrest could have parked in a different location that involved a shorter walk, don’t you think he would have? What is wrong with having one or more of the clues be drive-past clues?

            “But you don’t drive to the hide.. right?”

            I would if I could. I drive to the closest point of attack, just as the poem instructs me to.

            “I wonder what your comment would be IF fenn would answer this question; FF, Did you use your vehicle at, any point, when “following” the clues in the poem?
            If he stated No [ hypothetically ] would you say.. the question never stated “all” the clues and there’s an out?”

            In my opinion if he chose to answer the question at all, and answered honestly, then he would answer YES. After 8 years, how many searchers do you suppose have asked him that very question? You’ll notice that Q&A has never shown up, nor has anyone shared a private email exchange where Forrest answered it. Why do you suppose that is? If he walked all the clues, why wouldn’t he just come out and say so? For the same reason that he won’t say whether the chest is buried or not — he doesn’t want to give that as a clue.

        • seeker and zap you can think what you want to think – and in stead of just talking why dont you take a trip -on ge and find out for your self ill even tell you where to start – go to espanola and go west to abquiu res where you will find hob waters high the blaze cross the road and go in the wood oh by the way the blaze is flames don’t just talk and say no prove me wrong wwwh is the only clue that is not close to the other – I bet you guys haven’t even tried to look – I guess its just easer to just talk

          • frank,
            It doesn’t matter to me where you are at, how far the clues are apart in your solve… My comment to you was about your statement; ~ the only clues that are not contiguous are wwwh and hob’

            fenn said ‘the clues’ [ and there are 9 of them ] are contiguous, not some or a few or any part of.
            You danced around my inquiry like i’m supposed to jump on GE and see how well your solve works for you… it’s ok, there’s no law saying you need to explain.

          • seeker you are right – if you are walking – long distance –
            you are walking too far – that’s why he said – not far but to far to walk – I guess you drive ??

          • seeker and zap when I said that wwwh and hob were about 50 miles apart -I said that I didn’t remember for sure – so I went back and checked and I came out with 41.62 miles . I still say that wwwh is the only clue that doesn’t fall in line – going north with hob and the rest of the clues . going west the creek ends at hob leaving wwwh east at the bottom of the canyon . from hob – you take heavy loads ( means high way to waters high

    • It really doesn’t make that much of a difference MK, unless your solve doesn’t account for it. Then means something, but you are right, doesn’t bring home the bacon.

      Thanks pdenver, that’s the one.

    • MK;

      There are those that think that “And take it in” refers to a visual trip not an actual step-by-step trip.

      What if Forrest parked his car. Put 22 pounds of treasure in his backpack and hiked a fairly short distance to “A” spot. From this spot – the spot where he secrets Indulgence – he can SEE the WWWH spot, the small canyon down area, a hoB, a meek place etc. He does NOT need to go up and down a canyon twice – except with his eyes. From this spot he can SEE all of the elements in the poem.

      From this viewing spot, he hides backpack #1 and hikes back to his car. He grabs backpack #2 with the chest in it, and hikes the fairly short distance back to his viewing spot. He combines the treasure and the chest – secrets Indulgence. – puts one backpack in the other – hikes back to his car laughing at himself the whole way back.

      In the above, I assume that the hike from his car to the “View Spot/Hidey Place” does not require him to go up and down a canyon – twice.

      Kinda brings to mind Seeker’s Small Area Solve ideas. The more I think about it, the more I like it. JMO – JDA

      • Hi JDA,

        I think that’s a fresh idea. But that means the distance from his car to the hiding spot is very, very short, and the blaze and NPFTM creek are only given as clues but not actually traveled. In that case I wonder why Fenn did spend that much time (at least some part of 15 years) to create the “fake” clues. To send the searchers in the wrong direction? If I were Fenn, I would spend more time to add clues on the “A” spot you are referring to.

        In my current solve I also take “And take it in” as a view, not an actual trip. But in my solve there is one and only one path from WWWH to HOB and to the BLAZE, whether you like it or not. My solve is also rather a small area but not that small. As I mentioned before, WWWH, HOB and the Blaze form sort of a triangle where these three points can see each other.

        — MK

        • Then 200′ and 500′ Fenn mentioned regarding the closest distance from the treasure do not apply to your solve. I would still continue to look for the spot which will satisfy Fenn’s hint for recognizable geographical locations.
          — MK

        • MK,

          JDa’s explanation is ok… but not complete… At least in my theory.
          The idea is WWH [ whatever it refers to and size ] is where a searcher needs to be at, not ‘look’ for.. In theory.
          The idea is; a searcher need to move into an exact alignment to view all the clues while at WWH. This places the searcher at the blaze, and the blaze would only be known if the searcher was at the correct spot, with the other clue’s references deciphered correctly and seen. Again, in theory.. this may explain the “nailing” down part of WWH.. a fix spot.

          The clever wording in the poem, and the precognition many have about how a treasure hunt should be [follow the dotted line on a map to the X, idea] forces the idea of stomping point to point is needed and/or the only way. ~ the poem did it’s job.
          Wording such as “take it in” as a physical movement only, rather than, a view/vantage point of what you see.
          Or even the stand alone line; “Put in below the home of Brown”
          Two scenarios can apply here;
          1. WWH is large and you need to be below a certain area to be at, yet still in the area considered WWH.
          Lets say a lake for example. IF hoB is on the north side, you may need to be on the south side, line of thinking.
          2. hoB is where WWH is located. So the line in the poem is basically saying; WWH is below hoB. which if hoB is deciphered correctly it nails down the correct WWH reference. [ the lake, out of the many in this example ]

          The poem says NF, BTFTW, right? I think it means, hoB is not far and no need to walk it or the canyon… it’s an indicator where to be at – when at WWH.
          The the rest of the clue’s references are used as an alignment of that spot. The basic idea is… WWH is where we need to be and where the blaze is at, and where the chest is hidden… and why folks have been 500′ or closer and went by all the clues, and did decipher WWH or the first two clues, but didn’t understand why fenn wanted them there… they simply left WWH, looking for that dotted line of some map.

          IMO, they misunderstood, “take it in” and “NF,BTFTW” as movement… They didn’t “know” they had the correct deciphered clues ‘because’ they left the poem.

          *Your* destination is small, but *its* location is huge.

          In theory of course…

          • Hi Seeker,
            I have three questions and a explanation for you.

            1) You said “IF hoB is on the north side, you may need to be on the south side, line of thinking.” I’m having a hard time why some searchers, including you, even mention about the direction of movement. If your WWWH is here and HOB is there, all you need is to go from here to there. You don’t need to know which direction you have to go. You know the starting point and the ending point. Is there any other things you need to know in going from “here” to “there”? The only place Fenn mentioned about the path itself is the 3rd stanza (two lines for the forward path, and the next two lines for the return path, which is the same path, and only path there is). All other clues refer to the location, not direction.

            2) Your comment that “WWH is below hoB. which if hoB is deciphered correctly it nails down the correct WWH reference.” is not what Fenn said IMO. He said you have to nail down the first clue, period. He never mentioned that you have to decipher the HOB first. In fact he warned specifically not to do that if you don’t want to end up at the wrong hiding place (I’m paraphrasing).

            3) You said “*Your* destination is small, but *its* location is huge.” I don’t understand what you mean by this. Could you elaborate on this a bit further?

            Now my explanation.

            When I mentioned “Going down the canyon and coming back up” I just used Fenn’s words, but you can replace “canyon” with “creek”. This comment refers to the creek mentioned in the 3rd stanza.

            — MK

          • MK, ~ ‘If your WWWH is here and HOB is there, all you need is to go from here to there.’

            WhatIF you don’t need to go… it might only be the idea of hoB that nails down the correct WWH [in this scenario, a lake] out of the many WWH. Having the correct hOB reference tells you; this is the correct WWH, line of thinking. WWH is below hoB. No need to go to it.

            You state; ~ ‘ He said you have to nail down the first clue, period. He never mentioned that you have to decipher the HOB first.’

            He also stated; If you “know” hoB why be concerned about WWH? You wouldn’t be concerned, you would “know” why hoB is there.
            If all the information to find the chest is in the poem… how else do we nail down a clue, first or last, if we simply wing it from a guess of what the first clues is? The point I’m making is; something is needed to tell us… beforehand… wwwh is correct, otherwise don’t go, stay home… right?

            Your # 3 is not mine, but what fenn stated.
            The idea is the “your” destination is where fenn puts you. I think he has us at the location of the chest or near to start with. We think we need to move, hike, stomp away from WWH.
            “IT’s” location, might refer to where “you” are at.
            Huge can mean of size and/or importance or both… at WWH.

            But, most will automatically think the ‘destination’ means the chest only. fenn has put way too much emphasis on knowing, nailing down, having the first clue, it location or stay home. Yet when folks get there, the first thing they seem to do is leave. The idea of stomping point to point is built into their idea of how all treasure hunts must be… I think fenn is describing what he see from the blaze, at WWH. I also think “just” HLnWH is where we need to be at WWH

            To find the blaze… we need to observe the other clues from a specific spot at WWH. That spot gives up ‘where’ the blaze is. In theory, we follow the clues by understanding there references [ beforehand ] and find that spot that we can view those references to discover the blaze.
            If you stomp out the clues… you leave the poem… in theory.

            The over all theory is simple;
            Park where you can near WWH. Walk to WWH [ [a 1/4 mile, 1/2 miles, whatever that distance is.]
            look for the spot that brings the clues into view. This would be where you discover the blaze, because it’s the only place ‘the blaze’ can be, by aligning the clues.
            I wonder if I can fit that on a posted note?

            We are told to think and analyze. I think we have been reading the poem wrong… with only the stomping point to point method.
            We have been told to “plan and observe”
            I don’t think planning means bring extra sock because we need to cross water. Nor is observing to mean just look at maps… we may need to observe the clues and utilize them in my example. Following the clues that lead to where you are at, when observing them from the exact, precise spot… where the blaze is discovered by doing that.
            “IF you’ve been wise and found the blaze”… wise and found imo is discovering exactly what and where the blaze is.. by using/utilizing the clue’s references.

            fenn may have followed the clues in the same manner to ‘complete’ the poem… another-words… he pick the blaze or created a blaze at that spot. Now the poem is “completed?” and the chest hidden from site.

            Now, with all that BS said;
            IF.. the exact 10″ spot is what fenn meant by a ‘special place’ to hide the chest, this theory doesn’t hold water.
            I think fenn’s special place is referenced by IT’s [ your small destination ] is huge… meaning WWWH.

          • Hi Seeker,
            I have three questions for you. What do you think the word “wise” mean to you? Where do you think the chest is hidden, close to WWWH or to HOB or to the Blaze? Can you pinpoint the exact spot of the hiding place?
            — MK

          • MK,

            “Wise” works with “found”.. this implies discovery.
            The two words work in combination as to ‘know what you have found’ Which is why I call it a discovery; meaning; “knowing” what you have come across.
            I think it’s possible that the Blaze was needed to be found/discovered by fenn when he hid the chest.
            In theory~ he created clues that ‘reveals’ a small area and used what was there as the blaze. Also, in theory, if a searcher didn’t follow the clues as intended the blaze will not produce itself…
            Then he hid the chest. Hence the reason he may have had to follow his clues to where the blaze sits and this act ‘completed’ the poem.

            Yes, I’m saying “the” blaze, or what is used as ‘a’ blaze, may not have been known, or known of its exact position, until fenn got to it, by following the prior clues. Wise and Found= discovery. Know it in the intended blaze.

            I think the clues are all very close.. in fact, I think some of the clues kinda repeat themselves. For example; WWWH could be WLnWH but in a slightly different spot at WWWH.
            Now let me explain “close”… A canyon can be large, hoB can be a distance away, the creek long and narrow, no place for the meek can refer to the canyon itself, etc… all lying within a good size area, but all seen from WWWH.

            A searcher need to find the spot where they can observe the clue’s references from that spot [nailing down WWH]… I think that would be whatever HLnWH refers to… which is part of WWWH. IT’s your small destination looking at ITs huge location.

            Your last question is; no. I don’t know where WWH is. I’m not even sure what it refers to.
            But I can see how the area is laid out, because I think fenn is putting us in the spot he wants us to be. I don’t think he wants us stomping away in search of clues, they are there to be seen from a very small location at WWWH and again, may be refer to as “just” HLnWH.
            “Just” meaning; exactly.

            Ok with all that said, I do have another theory. I’m going to ask a few searcher, who have help me in the past, what they think if it.
            I’m not diggin it much, but it does meet many qualification and dissecting I have put it through.

            But it involves… this is gonna hurts to say it… driving. Oh! Ouch!.. that did hurt to say it. And worse yet, stomping as well.
            LOL, I’m hoping these guys can talk me out if it. They have a method of persuasion call the Zap test… if I start feeling egotesticle, they zap me in my eggos. it usually cures the nasty ego-bug. Only it has a small side affect, you’ll jump up and down on all fours yipping and yapping. But only for a few minutes.

          • OK Seeker, you asked for it.

            As I have said for a L O N G time, I think that “In the wood” tells you to go to a geographical feature in Wyoming. Once you find this place, finding WWWH is pretty easy. From WWWH, you drive down the canyon until you reach your “Put-in” point. Here, you keep driving past the “Meek” place. The END will be EVER drawing nigh, meaning that you will pass several boundaries as you DRIVE to the END place, where you park.

            You get out of your vehicle and hike a fairly short distance to the HLnWH spots – find the blaze and LQ down.

            Where you think Indulgence will be – sorry, it ain’t.

            Figure out stanza #5 and it will lead you to a special spot – and yet, again No Indulgence.

            Something will go BOING and you will figure out that from the spot you are now standing, that you can see a scaled-down version of the poem.

            You can SEE a new WWWH, a canyon, a hoB, a meek place, HLnWH spot and then a blaze, that turns out to be a Tarry Scant as well. Four in one actually – HL, WH, Blaze and Tarry Scant – all in one. Here, you will find Indulgence. – In the wood,- and in a place that is cold. Almost every element in the poem in one place.

            You HAD to find the first WWWH by figuring out “In the wood” – then DRIVE to the parking place. Hike a fairly short distance, and wind up disappointed until you figure out that almost every element of the poem can be found or seen from one single spot. – But Yes, Seeker, you had to drive. Sounds crazy, but It works – JDA

          • Seeker;

            Even IF you could somehow get to this “Special Spot” where all of the elements of the poem can be seen or found, you would probably still have had to drive to get to the parking lot – whether you were following clues or not. I have not been able to find anything in the poem that would have led you to this “Special Spot” – Thus the need to DISCOVER the first WWWH, and then DRIVE.
            JDA

      • Hi JDA, I remember a video, where Mr. Fenn said that he did not go down, into a canyon. The visual journey, makes the most sense. IMO

        • James: he never said that exactly. What he said about going up and down canyons was in response to an ill-fated searcher’s solution that would have required going down into a deep canyon (Rio Grande, I believe) and back up again — TWICE in one afternoon. Forrest was basically saying the solution was stupid because it failed to take into consideration the physical demands being asked of a nearly 80-year-old man carrying a moderately heavy backpack.

          When searchers nevertheless CONTINUED to risk their lives going into the Rio Grande, culminating in a second fatality in 2017, Forrest apparently decided that searchers weren’t getting the message. So he had to go so far as to explicitly exclude the Rio Grande from the solution space.

          Sadly, I bet some searchers still go there.

          Note that “going up and down canyons” like the Rio Grande is quite a different matter than going up and down canyons like the Firehole’s or Madison’s. Up and down the *walls* of a canyon is quite distinct from going up and down river within a canyon. (Seeker: that last sentence is aimed at you because you quote this Forrest ATF so often and use it incorrectly to exclude along-canyon travel.)

          • The question[s] asked related not only to Randy, but the chase itself.
            The question I quoted [in-part] was about; ‘who else knows where the treasure is’? The interviewer used the word ‘buried treasure’ fenn corrected the use of buried. fenn stated; no one else known but him… and added in the middle of the question; an 80 yr old is not going down and up a canyon…
            You want to believe it only related to the Rio Grande, that’s fine. Only fenn didn’t say ‘that’ canyon… or mention it by name, or the searcher’s solve.
            Again, the question was about ‘who else might know where the treasure is’… fenn volunteered the part about an 80 yr not doing something.
            There were other questions ask that didn’t relate to Randy as well. [ ya’ll can read the interview yourselves and make up your own mind]

            So how am I using the answer incorrectly, Zap?

            In another interview fenn made a comment about looking up words and definitions of words changed words [in the poem] and it came out exactly as he wanted [ the poem ].
            You have said, there is no need to look up words in a dictionary / Google meanings.

            You take a line from the second stanza [correct me if I’m wrong on the process] collect certain letters from those words to create a place to search. But you don’t call that a code or coded message. yet fenn has told us ‘knowing..codes and cipher.. will not assist.’

            Fenn made a comment that folks should never take anything off reservations, yet tribal lands are indicated on the map within the search area.
            I personally choose not to invoke the idea reservations are involved.. and I use the comment as fenn possibly relaying the same.
            fenn in a Q&A about the jar in the chest stated; he was not ready to say the chest is not in water, and later in a statement almost force to say; the chest is not underwater. ~ Is this not similar to fenn’s answer to the question about; who else know…?

            fenn says no to codes, you unscramble letters in words to create a place.
            fenn say he used google as his basic means to look up words… and the poem came out exactly as he liked. You have said, no need to do that.
            fenn states an 80 yr is not going down and up a canyon, and you say I’m incorrect, that it was only one canyon he was referring to.
            fenn finally stated [ after being asks many times over many years ] he followed “the clues” when he hid the chest. You claim, because of the lack of the word “All’ the clues”… fenn followed just some of them. Clues [9] that we have been told we need to follow, need the first clue or stay home, can’t find the blaze without the first clue etc.etc. because to his own knowledge [ the guy who created the clues ] there is no other way.

            Sure, I guess I could be incorrect…

          • Seeker, despite your lengthy reply you failed to address the only point I was really making: that “going down and up a canyon” does not necessitate tremendous loss and regain of elevation. You could go down and up the entire length of Madison Canyon, for instance, and probably lose or gain less than 50 feet.

            Forrest was alluding to steep canyon walls (like the Rio Grande). Why would he bring up the example if it wasn’t”t in the context of addressing Randy’s path?

            If you generalize Forrest’s comment to exclude ALL canyon travel, I think you are seriously misleading yourself. Going down and up some canyons requires no more effort than walking on level ground. Surely you don’t think that ATF from Forrest excludes that.

            I would never entertain a solution that involved elevation gain or loss of more than a few hundred feet. And yet I most definitely go up and down a canyon.

          • Zap ~ ‘Forrest was alluding to steep canyon walls (like the Rio Grande). Why would he bring up the example if it wasn’t”t in the context of addressing Randy’s path?’
            There were many question asked not to a missing person…
            ~You have said 65,000 people have joined the search over the years. Where did you come up with that number?
            ~What’s the treasure worth?
            ~What arrangements have you made in case of your disability or death?
            ~Of those 65,000 searchers, have any gotten close?
            ~Since the poem, have you added clues?
            ~Have the searchers ever come to your home?
            Are there skeptics who question whether the treasure really exists? That it’s a hoax?
            ~Have you been back to the site since hiding the chest?
            No, but I could go if I wanted to, even at 85. One of my clues is that it’s above 5,000 feet and below 10,200 feet. I said that because people were climbing up to the tops of mountains. The biggest clue of all is: Don’t look for the treasure any place where an 80-year-old man could not have taken it. That eliminates half the places where people are looking.

            Note the question above; fen was asked about going back to the site; even stated even at 85 he could. and added, unprovoked; searcher were climbing to tops of mountains, so he gave the two elevation points [ which we know the were told of at separate times .. first 5000ft then later 10,200 ft]. and the biggest clues; Don’t look for the treasure any place where an 80-year-old man could not have taken it. That eliminates half the places where people are looking.

            What is the difference when fenn adds those comments to the down and up comment earlier in the interview? A mountain peak has nothing to do with where Randy went missing.
            My other example; was fenn stalking about sealing the jar to make it water proof. he added; I’m not ready to say the chest in not in water… well, didn’t he say just that and later was almost force to say; “the chest is not under water”

            Then fenn added * later* after the this interview;
            “nor is it near the Rio Grande River.”
            Would that not have been the opportunity?
            or
            “or climb up or down a steep precipice”

            IF fenn states he’s not going down and up “a” canyon [ with no specifics of that canyon ] you can add ‘your limits’ to what that canyon looks like… or how you get to the bottom or where you start. OR what you think fenn was “alluding” to in that particular question.

            You said ~ If you generalize Forrest’s comment to exclude ALL canyon travel, I think you are seriously misleading yourself. Going down and up some canyons requires no more effort than walking on level ground. Surely you don’t think that ATF from Forrest excludes that.

            That is exactly my point of discussion… there may be no need to be ‘in any canyon’… and you know my take on “take it in” can be read as a view / observation / vantage point, rather than, stomping for drive into anywhere. No matter how easy that trek.

            However, I will agree, IF WWH’s reference is already within a canyon of any style /difficulty/ size/ or easy… sure, being in one is possible, ‘to start out at the first clue.’
            So in this case; “take it in the canyon down” is basically a direction, rather than, elevation… “Down” now can be NSEW [or any points in between] depending on the canyon itself.

          • Zap ~ Excellent, Seeker, finally we have had an exchange where we understood each other.

            Took ya long enough… whew! I need to cool off my keyboard, its glowing red.

          • There are different things that can be considered a “canyon”. Scale may be of importance. It could easily be a ditch, gulch, valley, whatever. Maybe with f saying he wouldn’t be going down, up, or down again of a canyon doesn’t actually refer to the clue if it’s a valley, or gulch. It doesn’t say anywhere that f has to differentiate any of his clues. He could mean a canyon, call it a canyon, but it actually is just something in the saddle of two mountains, or whatever. That’s the problem of trying to solve clues. But, carry on…One of these days, the lightbulb will go off.

          • Poison;

            You used the right phrase – “One of these days, the lightbulb will go off.” – and when it does, you will find yourself in the dark 🙂 haha JDA

        • James,

          I just saw this [ your ] post.
          i know of an interview [ none recorded ] where fenn stated “I can tell you an 80 yr old is not is no going down and up a canyon…”
          But if you know of a video or audio that has fenn stating something similar… I would really like to review it… can you recall where you heard this?

          If you can point me in a direction to look for it, I’d be appreciated.

          • Here is the oft quoted statement found at:
            https://people.com/celebrity/author-forrest-fenn-talks-about-missing-treasure-hunter/
            https://people.com/celebrity/author-forrest-fenn-talks-about-missing-treasure-hunter/

            Who else knows where the treasure is buried?
            I never said it was buried. I’ve avoided that word. I hid it. I don’t mean to imply that it isn’t buried. I just didn’t want to give that as a clue. It took me two trips in my car to hide the treasure. And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again. As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know.

            Hope this helps – JDA

          • I know that interview, JDA. I’ve posted it many times.
            I was curious to Jame’s post about about “video”
            saying possibly the same… If that is around, I have not seen or heard it, but would like to.

            While the people.com interview seems to be something said, the way fenn would say it [ in comparison to other comments relating to the same ]… It would be better if we could hear him state something, rather than, a report that we are not 100% sure is completely accurate in the wording.

            For example; In that interview, and that particular question, it states; It took me two trips *in* my car to hide the treasure. Where as, in all the other comments relating to his vehicle he says; ‘two trips *from* my car’

            “IN” ?

            Is it a slip?
            Does it mean he took two trips up and down a canyon *in* his car?
            Does it mean two trips *in* his car on two different days?

            None of those inquiries seems reasonable to the other many comments about; [ summarizing ] two trips in ‘one afternoon’ ‘from his car’ to the hide, while ‘following the clues’ ‘walking less than a few miles’ ‘taking the most direct route’

            My point to Zap’s comment who said; Note that “going up and down canyons” like the Rio Grande is quite a different matter than going up and down canyons like the Firehole’s or Madison’s. Up and down the *walls* of a canyon is quite distinct from going up and down river within a canyon. (Seeker: that last sentence is aimed at you because you quote this Forrest ATF so often and use it incorrectly to exclude along-canyon travel.)

            “Incorrectly” is misleading at best;
            There’s no mention of a “river” or the traveling of a river, so I don’t know why Zap even brings that into the equation, there’s no mention of how steep or shear a canyon is, yet Zap brought that up as well, no mention of *walls* at all in the question, and Zap also implied [in is post] fenn was talking about the Rio Grande because of a missing person… which the story was about.
            Only the question presented was about; Who else might know where the chest is at… nothing to do with a canyon, how difficult a type of canyon might be, a river, Randy, etc. However, fenn added that part about an 80 yr old… unprovoked.

            Not unlike his repeated comments; Don’t go where an 80 yr old carrying a heavy back-pack can’t.
            Zap’s idea is he need to drive in his solve… ok.
            And should that not be true his solve is wrong. So Zap seems to be adding unknowns into ‘that particular question’ so it work better for his solve. No hair off my back.
            I’m attempting to utilize all ATF’s within reason and honesty, to what fenn’s action were when he hid the chest [ what he told us he did ], and how they stay honest and true to the poem’s clues in the same manner… without making excuses because I simply like my personal solve.

            I’m not looking for what *I think the solve should be* no matter how brilliant I think I am, or how much I like a single area or state… I’m trying to figure out what fenn did and how he explains what we should be doing, and not doing.

          • OK James, thanks…
            you said; I remember a video…
            I was really hoping it was a video that I may not have known of.. I like videos, audio or known quotes fenn typed out or wrote… but we deal with what we have.

          • Seeker: just to reiterate, I don’t go down “into” a canyon at any time, so that ATF has nothing to do with my solution. All of my clues are already IN a canyon.

          • Zap;

            If you are “IN” a canyon, didn’t you have to go “INTO” it at some point? – Whether you drove or hiked? Just a question – JDA

          • Yes siree JDA,
            Begin it where warm waters halt in the canyon
            And take it in the canyon down,
            Just doesn’t make sense.

            After all the boasting Zap did in the last year about him knowing where warm waters halt is and he never realized that it’s not in a canyon even though the poem says so.

          • Seeker,
            I found your previous post most refreshing.
            Well thought out and very informative.
            I will be reading your posts with a lot more attention from now on.
            Bravo, Well done.

            HDD

          • Yep, JDA, I drove to get to my canyon. WWWH and all clues that follow are within that canyon. Canyon down is primarily a horizontal direction, not vertical.

          • HDD,
            I’ll make sure they’re looongger with more rambling and rumbling so I don’t miss any of the 8 years plus ATF’s or crash Dal’s server trying Should they get too long I’ll just labeling chapters for easy reference Zap can be my editor he seems to like punctuation hates run on sentences and k-erected spelin airors

            Appreciate it

          • Don’t we all want to be appreciated?
            Regarding the definition of “canyon”, one should refer to
            an authoritative source for the info. And go back to the poem, even though it might be a tiny bit less “entertaining” than the blogs. This is all the opinion of a denizen.

    • MK ~ ‘ 2) He went down the canyon first and came up, and went down the canyon again and came up to his car. He was 80 years old when he hid the treasure, and it was not easy for him.’

      OK, how to you get around fenn’s comment [ in part, to a question about who else knows where the treasure is buried ]

      “…**And I can tell you an 80-year-old man is not going to make a trip into a canyon, then come up and go down again.** As for who else knows, I’m the only one. My wife doesn’t know.”

      Grant ya this is an interview with no audio, but if factual and accurate, how do you get around having a searcher needing to carry anything in and out of a canyon?
      Fenn also stated he followed the clue ‘…when I hid the treasure…’ and later stated he took the same route out from the hide to the car, it was the most direct route.
      Seem’s to me follwoing the clues should involve the all the clues [others say different, because the lack of the word “all” ] but fenn is talking about “the clues” in the “poem”… I don’t see how it can mean only some of the clues. IF that is correct, how do you get around fenn just going to hoB by passing possibly 3 or so clues.. when he has stated; we need to follow the clues, there’s no other way to his knowledge.

      It’s ok to believe what ya want, I’m only pondering how we can get around those comments and have something different than what has been stated.

      • Hi Seeker,
        My first 5 clues are:
        1. (2-1) Begin it where warm waters halt
        2. (2-2) Take it in the canyon down
        3. (2-3) Not far, but too far to walk
        4. (2-4) Put in below the home of Brown
        5. (3-1) From there it’s no place for the meek

        According to my clue list, HOB is the fourth clue, and in order to get there you have to follow the first 3 clues. Does that answer to your question?
        — MK

          • Solution concept for you, Seeker.

            Wwwh is a very small place, but identifiable. It is near a road, and in a canyon. Searcher needs to go to this place in order to get an accurate GPS position of the actual water halt point because that is not on the map precisely.

            Then the searcher needs to locate the home of Brown, a few miles away. There they might need to take a short hike to get a precise GPS at this point, similar to the wwwh efforr.

            Now, two readings in hand, a searcher then has two possible solutions:

            Lat 1/Long 2
            Lat 2/Long 1

            Searcher returns to car, drives to closest point to preferred intersection and hikes to chest resting spot.

            This solution methodology would be potentially precise enough to generate a very small area search at the intersections, yet completely secure in that only someone with two independently generated pieces of information could get close to the chest itself with confidence.

            The rest of the poem and clues then provide general corroboration of the final testing place, but the site specific info has been imparted via the first two clues. This is why the little girl in India can get no closer than the first two clues without going BOTG. The answer is already known.

            Your thoughts appreciated as always.

          • Hi Seeker,
            My “follow” or “follow the clues” does not always involve the movement. For example, from WWWH to below HOB involves only one trip by car according to my solve, but I’m counting 2nd and 3rd clue as valid clues even though they do not involve any movement or actual travel.
            — MK

          • Iowaengr,

            Are you using ‘tired and/or weak; involving lat. and long.?
            A simple yes, or no will suffice… unless you want to explain it on the site.

    • MK your right ,carrying 42 pounds will not be easy but with the joy and wonder of it all you might find yourself skipping and doing cartwheels with it. You’ll have an incredible amount of adrenaline. When my brother came up short trying to jump a creek on his bicycle I carried home a good distance. I think that’s what finding the TC will be like.

      • Hank,
        Not to insult your brother, but according to most people, anyone who would try to jump a creek on their bicycle must be crazy.

        • Here’s something about the treasure hunt we’re supposed to be
          discussing.

          When I think of a place WWWH, I think of a place where I
          stepped across a creek less than two feet wide very near where I was. But it’s not in a location that is very suitable for bicycling
          I think FF’s mention of a bicycle was a rabbit hole.

          This message comprises part of my opinion, which is not particularly narrow.

  28. Good morning Frank,

    An interesting post you put there. I am interested in how you came to to the ideal of 60 miles between WWWH and HOB??
    Personally I take the poem at face value and try to break through the ideologies to the actual
    physical objects. My issue is understanding how they are related.

    HDD

    • high desert- thanks for asking – if I told you that I know where wwwh and hob are you would say – and how do you know for sure – I would have to say that its 6 years of working with only the poem and GE that’s the only answer I cam tell I have

  29. Frank,
    Your thoughts intrigue me. Care to share in a pvt msg?
    I vow not to disclose anything you tell me. Nor will I attempt to use the info to find the chest
    without you present and informed of my thoughts.
    That’s right I am proposing a partnership. Idk if you can locate my contact info via this site.
    Let me know and I will make sure you get the needed info.

    HDD

    • HDD I would be glad to partner with you and thanks for asking but I have a problem and I have been trying to find the person who owns the land – I went one time to my salve but had to turn around because of bad weather sense then they put up no trespassing signs if I could find who owns it I would write to him for permisstion to go in there and look- if you have any ideas let me know and I will send you my email so we can talk — frank

      • Wow Seeker that is great, unfortunately my wallet is not in a condition to make exceptions to my to get list this month. Maybe next month.

        Thank you so much
        HDD

        • HDD,
          Holidays, I get it…
          I’m not selling the product. But I will say JCM has done a great job of collecting first hand quotes, interviews, audios, videos, second hand information, all with links for you to check it all out yourself. He also keeps updating when new info comes out… I think it compiles over two hundred pages. Not bad for the price of a dinner out for two.

          LOL do I sound like a salesman? I may have to ask for a commission. Tell him I send ya, and he’ll charge ya double…lol
          PS. you can find his site at the bottom of the page or in the topic thread books by searcher on the right hand column of the page.

  30. Hi poisonivey,

    Consider this if you will. What if these locations after WWWH and HoB are landmarks pointing to the actual chests location? I.E The Blaze. Make sense? In other statements FF there is only one way. to paraphrase it. So I think he felt no need to rehash exact steps.

    Imho
    HDD

  31. Seeker:

    I have several completely different solutions working right now. However, none of them involve using either tired or weak as a coordinate per se.

    The solution that comes closest to using tired and weak as a possible discreet helper to the chest location works as follows:

    Begin it = ITS from Line 9
    N the Can yon Down = SRPAWDN, finishing on the N in scaNt
    Not Far, BTFTW = CAR, next 3 letters going down, finishing on the R in tRove
    Put In = ROVE, moving across to the right on Line 18
    No Place For = FOR, continuing to the right on Line 18
    The End = TNMUDWUN, moving up to the N in drawiNg, Line 10

    There will be NO PADDLE up your creek means, reverse the letters

    A=N
    B=U
    C=W
    D=D
    E=U
    F=M
    G=N
    H=T
    I=R
    J=O
    K=F
    L=E
    M=V
    N=O
    O=R
    P=A
    Q=C
    R=N
    S=D
    T=W
    U=A
    V=P
    W=R
    X=S
    Y=T
    Z=I

    Note: N=O; P=A; D=D; L=E, so line 11 verifies.

    Shape of blaze is U, and letters used in reverse turn U to N. Riches NU.

    Using these equivalencies:

    DRAWIN = 45.5996
    UPYOURC = 112.9155

    Location is on a NF road just SE of Cleve Mine in Beaverhead NF. Mine closed in 1904. The creek in this area is Sappington. Sapping to N is quite apt for this particular solution. And sapping literally means to tire and weaken.

    But despite spending 4 days on the ground searching this area this summer, I could not find the chest. So there is something about this solution that I don’t understand fully. It’s either incorrect, or there is a twist at the end that is leaving me stumped.

    Your thoughts appreciated on this one, since you asked about these terms directly, Seeker.

    Thx in advance.

    • imo, with this type of method, you are searching for a tractor and it’s barn in a haystack. Meaning no matter where you look, you will find your tractor… and it’s barn.

    • Dear Mr. IA engr:

      I’m sorry but “No paddle” is a reference to Hiawatha. To confirm that though, you would have to read the poem.

      IMO

      1f Billy

  32. Good Morning James P,

    I’ll be giving away to much of my current work on the chase.
    None the less I think it might have it’s own reward.
    I look at the poem as a map aka a road map of sort. Some time ago I realized that
    the poem breaks down in a certain way. I made mention of the break down before I
    moved from Mi to Ca here in this forum. During my home rehab I had no T.V; no internet. So plenty of time to think. about the poem I set aside my earlier trains of thought and opened my mind to other possibilities. That is when I came to the conclusion I was on the right path so to speak. If one reads the poem slowly and takes time to think about it.
    I feel they will understand.

    HDD

    • Well HDD, I wish you well. Sorry for your lay-up, but if it gave you the chance to see the poem from a different perspective, maybe it will be worthwhile. Again, good luck – JDA

  33. I have as well as other’s say, one needs to LEARN WWWH, there is no GUESSING, if one is guessing they may as well stay home.

    Also I’m sure there are those that think the clues have to be stomped out from below the hoB, which I disagree with. I say one can follow all of the clues except the very last one, before one leaves home. It seems to me the path would be sure for the one that finds the tc, and in theory and in practice except for the last clue.

    I will dare say one can most certainly never set foot on the ground prior to retrieving the chest which would include the hiding place of the chest. To solve the last clue in full is to retrieve the chest. One parks their car at the very end and no where else in between the first 8 clues.

    All one needs to solve the clues is the poem and a map/GE just by Learning, not guessing the first clue. The only back story that is needed is that its hidden in the RM in one of the 4 states, MT, WY, CO and NM.

    Call me crazy or completely wrong if anyone wants to, but I will stand firmly with these thoughts.

    Just Say’n

    • IMO- Charles…..
      One cannot figure out the blaze without being there. You can’t drive there either. The blaze is concealed and the only way to find it is with boots on the ground. I don’t think anyone other than the Deputy and myself have ever been there, since Forrest. I left some of my gear there and it was undisturbed (except by the mice) even after several months. However, a searcher may have found it by now since I have been laid up with my broken tibial plateau for the last six months. I just don’t know……

      • IMO- Sherif Billy…..
        One thinks that he HAS figured out the blaze without being there, and also thinks that it hasn’t had any person within 5 feet of it in the last hundred years.

        One should, by the way, say something about Where Warm
        Waters Halt… since that’s the name of this thread. One
        thinks that Where Warm Waters Halt may be within 42 feet of the hidey place. One used that number because
        one thought it would be “doug” by occasional hitchhikers.

      • Hi Sherif sorry about the broke leg, better kept eye on that deputy.Remember what ff said all can be solved from arm chair except the last one ,haft to put btg in theory.Read ttotc know the stories memorize the poem put it all together.Get well soon so you can kept up with deputy in chase.

        • Thanks Clint–

          Technically, one doesn’t need to find the blaze. “look quickly down” is the clue. IMO The blaze is in the “hole”, much like Jacks.. hole. It took us about six months to figure that one out….

          Best regards;

          1f

      • Sherif,

        I’m confused… well, I’m always confused… but I’m confused by your post.
        It sounds like you were right smack at the blaze, left some items there, went back again several months later only to find mice had been in these items.. and a searcher may have found it [items? chest?] after you have been there twice? But now are laid up and can’t get back there any time soon… is that about right?

        IF that is a correct assumption, what stumped you at the blaze, twice? And why leave gear behind?
        You may have answered the reason for leaving the gear behind in another post, but it seems odd, if you made it that far in the poem… the blaze stump you on site.
        I mean, fenn was asked about the distance from the blaze to the chest [ regardless what that distance is ] the answer would be “obvious” if you find the blaze.. so I’m a bit confused what was not obvious that far into the poem’s clues?

        • Mr. Seeker-
          The Deputy and I have been to the blaze at least 25 times. You see, we took the bait (like always) and did exactly what the poem said to do….look quickly down. The problem is Mr.f never makes it that easy.

          Retrospectively, the distance from the blaze to the chest is obvious…….because the blaze is technically not in the mountains. IMO It is just a way point. “look quickly down” is clue number 5.

          Note to Mr. Ken:
          In the above post you quote Fenn, quoting T. S Eliot…
          Does anyone think it odd he chose Eliot? By the way what is the meaning of Eliot? Hum……..

          • Billy Billy Billy. The religious angle still does not compute for me. Sure… Eliot wrote some pretty heavy stuff about salvaging the masses from themselves… fire and brimstone type stuff. I think you are missing the point… which may be evident if you think you have been to the blaze 25 times.

          • Billy, Glad you mentioned the family name Eliot… the hints in the book help with the clues in the poem, & the clues lead to places on the map, & places on maps have names.

            For his first 10 years, Forrest figured that if weren’t for his name he wouldn’t have anything at all. Then he thought deeper down.

          • Ok Sherif,

            Your at the blaze and something in a far-?- distance is noticeable. [ “not technically in the mountains”.] So I’m curious to how far way is that? 2000′ 1/2 mile, 1 mile?
            IF The chest is not near the blaze, what is it about the blaze that should catch ones attention?

            I’ll jump ahead a little and assume by your “not in the mountains” to be a far distance. Why can’t we or ‘fenn’ just go to the blaze?
            I mean, he did say we could find the clues on a map [situ]… If the blaze is clue # 5 in your theory, we should be able to locate it on a map, fenn only stated the last clue can’t be seen from GE… right?

            However, he said he followed the clues. OK here’s where I’m bewildered. Why would he follow the first 5 clues at all IF the blaze is far from the chest [ again, assuming there’s a bit of a distance from the blaze to the hide]
            A 1000′ ft I can understand… above that, is starting to be questionable because there’s 4 more clues in your solve.

            Just curious to see the process of how your clue references work for your theory.

      • Sherif Billy,

        That opinion you made is for your solve, it does not apply to mine. As the clues towards the end get easier, why complicate it so much necessarily?

        Yours is yours, mine is mine. Thanks for the input.

        • Mr. One and all:

          What can I say……..I mean…. WE FOUND IT….Didn’t f say you will KNOW the blaze when you find it? How can I prove to you that is it without having the man confirm it?

          Would you believe me if I told you I found a juvenile wild boar scull on the adjacent private property? It had four 22 holes in its’ scull. One of the entrance wounds entered at an oblique angle as if shot from directly above the animal. The other three were all close together between the eyes. No other bones nearby, which leads me to think they had a pig roast.

          Why did it take me so long to move on past the blaze? There are just too many things that match up with Fenn’s stories and I didn’t comprehend the remaining clues. (Spanish X, car in the creek, chair, going through El Hoyo, etc) Besides, the poem says it is right there. Doesn’t it??? I am sorry you don’t like my answers, but please remember, I didn’t make up the questions. How much time is left on the game clock?

          1f Billy

          • Hahahaha,
            What would this place be without you, JDA and other “knowers”.
            It’s entertainment as Fenn stated but not really good entertainment.

            I would be very careful you don’t end up with some new holes in your skull next spring. Think about it all winter.

          • Well Jake – I sure seem to be a burr under your bonnet – Sorry ’bout that! – If you do not care for what I post, don’t read em’ – Just sayin’ – JDA

          • 1f Billy,

            You have it wrong I am not, “Mr. One and all”, it sounds as though you think you are. When it gets right down to it, we all are Mr. or Ms. one in all when it comes to personal theories.

            I personally don’t take into account, ” (Spanish X, car in the creek, chair, going through El Hoyo, etc)” all I care about is the poem and a map, without side stories. Yep, there’s no way in getting around where the poem says its at, that is pretty much it. No stories, no ATFs answers what the poem is saying.

            I’m sorry if you think I know it all, I’m merely expressing my theory as you are with yours, don’t we all? No offense given and no offense taken. If my bluntness offends you let me know, I will try to tone it down just for you. 🙂

            Just Say’n

          • Follow your own advice you just gave me.
            The only reason why I comment is because every year you get so cocksure and insult others intelligence.

            I think WWWH is Fountain Flats area where he went bathing as a child and is a known special spot for him otherwise he would not write about it.
            Others were there but oblivious to the connection to the poem. Tourists?

          • Sorry you feel that I insult other’s intelligence – That certainly is not my intent. – JDA

          • Not just me JDA, You should feel sorry for all the others through the years as well.
            The other negative comments towards you by others here…
            I’m sure it’s not your intent but I think you should read and UNDERSTAND the comments you type before hitting “Post Comment” button.

            Time for me to move on away from ego trips and get back to what this site was created for and if this site is about one person, it’s Fenn and not our own big heads.

          • JDA, will you answer this or not? You keep dodging it, what’s up with that. You’ve said it in a lot of posts, solving for certain things, well, I keep giving this ATF to you with no reply. Am I to take your silence to mean that you can see that there is no answer for it. At least in the way you see the poem?

            You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh, and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
            No I don’t madam, sorry. F

            Do you need help? Do you need the definitions of un-subtle and subtle? Do you need another ATF to help you out? Here’s one to let you know he includes the poem in the book.
            “…..study the clues in the book and thread a tract through the wiles of nature and circumstance to the treasure. If you can find it, you can have it. I warned the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

            Maybe some insight ATF,
            Q. Forrest, you have stated that several searchers correctly identified the first two clues in your poem. Could you tell us how many searchers to your knowledge have correctly identified the first clue correctly? Thanks. ~49 Dollars
            A. No 49, I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly. F
            Notice the lack of the word “solve” but instead, “identify”.
            And of course,:
            Q. Do expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?
            A. No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.
            So again, how can wwwh be solved? You’ve stated I’m foolish in saying that a searcher would find the end spot before wwwh, that wwwh is the first clue, and that you need to solve for it to get the second, well, that way of doing things does not mesh with what f has said. So, please, do explain. Or not, your silence in this matter is deafening.

          • Poison;

            “JDA, will you answer this or not? ” Answer what?

            Sorry I am so dense, but I see no question. What is is EXACTLY that you think I keep evading? JDA

          • Hi JDA: Poison erroneously believes that the following ATF from MW Featured Questions (11/12/2015) means that searchers cannot solve WWWH:

            “You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh, and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, ‘In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?’” ~BW

            “No I don’t madam, sorry. F”

            Charlie/poisonivey is probably not unique in thinking that WWWH cannot be solved, but he is probably one of the most vocal about it.

            The more sensible reading of this Q&A is that Forrest is simply saying that the hints in the book will not tell you the identity of Brown, home of Brown, WWWH, or the blaze. That’s the poem’s job, not the book’s, as reiterated in the Chicago WGN radio interview in March 2013:

            “There are some subtle hints in the text of the book that will help you with the clues. The … the… the poem will take you to the treasure chest, and the book by itself won’t.”

          • OK Poison – In your last paragreaph you ask the question – “So again, how can wwwh be solved?”

            This is an example of how it can be solved – Example only – it is NOT the solve for my wwwh.

            I say that “in the wood” has an archaic or obscure definition, that when found will lead you to a geographic location in Wyoming, and that once you find this geographic location, finding WWWH is pretty easy.

            So – as an example only, instead of saying that “in the wood” has an archaic meaning – etc. Let’s say that the word is “Treasures”. Find an archaic or obscure definition for treasure(s) (or treasurer) and you come up with Casper. Casper is a geographical location in Wyoming. Look at a map of the Casper Wyoming area and you see Red Butte. Red – for many – means hot or warm.
            The North Platte River runs on the south side of Red Butte. I then say that my WWWH is the North Platte River.

            Remember this is an example only – A POOR example I must admit, but an example.

            I found a word in the poem – Treasures
            I found an old meaning = Casper (Geographical location in Wyoming)
            This led me to Red Butte – red = warm or hot
            North Platte river is in Red Butte = my WWWH.

            This is how the poem was able to help me SOLVE WWWH. Again, a POOR example, but it shows my general thought process. Just the poem, a dictionary for definitions, and Forrest has said that he looked up words, and changed words, and rebooted, and a map – NO ATF’s used. Hope this helps. I have NOT been evading your question, I just have never understood what you were asking. Hope that this answers it. If not, ask the question in one simple line – I am simple minded – JDA

          • JDA, that would fall under “subtle”. Try again.

            Zap, There are hints, of course, but the ATF says “answer”. So, like JDA, try again.

          • And Zap, don’t get it twisted, wwwh can be determined, identified, found, like f has said. He just does not furnish the answer to that individual clue. I’m vocal about it to show the point of solve the poem, put an “X” an a map. And of course, you give your interpretation of the ATF, whatever, you guys would probably made great lawyers. Twist the facts, same afternoon two trips right, lol.

          • Poison;

            We can play silly games all night. I have NO idea what you are talking about – difference between subtle and non-subtle hints or statements. You have it all figured out – good for you. Best of luck in your solve, and that is my subtle way of sayin’ that all of this is above my pay grade – Have a GREAT evening and search come spring. JDA

    • Wait a minute Charlie. You said:
      “I did not explain well enough, where warm waters halt, how I arrived at the Headwaters of the Rio Grande River, to be the first clue in the poem. The Rio Grande River has been classified as warm water by the New Mexico Fish & Wildlife. In fishing brochures that I have seen they refer to The Warm Waters of the Rio Grande, also it has been referred the same in conversations I’ve had and tourist video clips and rafting clips that I’m sure are out there and around before the advent of computers. The Rio Grande River is made up of other rivers and waters combined, hence “waters”.
      How does the Rio Grande River halt? When all of the snow melts off the water flow does halt or stops where the river is first formed, there is no more water. I think of it this way, when you turn on a faucet the water flows (melting snow) and when you turn off the faucet the water halts, (snow finished melting). This is the best analogy that I could present.
      My second analogy of “where warm waters halt”, snow is frozen water, when it melts it is warmer water than its parent. Again when there is no more snow the water stops flowing. I believe there are many warm waters throughout the Rocky Mountains that this applies to. Even though I like both ideas, the first analogy is more defined as one place among the many places where warm waters halt.”
      How can you not see that this is guessing? No where do you say the poem solved for this place. You are guessing right from the get go. There are hundreds of places in the Rockies that could fit this thought, because, it is a guess without using the poem. You might as well say that it’s at a glacier, or a hot springs, or whatever, that’s guessing. Not one time do you mention how you solved the poem to get you to this place. This is throwing darts at a dart board and then coming up with a history lesson of the area. That’s not solving the poem.
      Maybe since this write up you saw your mistake and have fixed, I don’t know, but if you are starting in this fashion, all I could say is that it is guessing 101.

      • poisonivey,

        The poem only gives the clue of a place, no where else in the poem tells where wwh. It’s never been a guess for me wwwh halts it’s purely logic and from my knowledge. There is one more strong evidence that I haven’t published.
        Go ahead and say sure, its a cop out. Maybe for you but not me. Take a closer look and then prove me wrong, all else fits like a glove to a tee and I have made an error with the blaze that is all.

        I don’t mind one iota if someone retrieves the chest because of my theory. You say tossing darts, I say look at the map it’s laid out for all to see. It’s too easy to dismiss because it doesn’t fit your theories.

        Yes you are 100% correct I saw my mistake and fixed it. All in all next season we shall see, at least I’ve put everything out there and botg for all to see. I’m like Zap, its the challenge, the tc is a side reward.

        Where are your dart tosses?

        There are only two people on this earth that can tell me I’m wrong, which is myself or Forrest. At least I’m firmly committed. As a reminder I can’t say I found the tc until its in possession, at least its my theory and I still keep an open mind.

        Thanks for your input, really!!

        Just say’n

        • Charlie M—

          I am sorry you misunderstood me. There were three of you responding to my post, and so I replied “To one and all”.

          Sorry, if I offended you. It was not my intent.

          Best wishes;

          1f Billy

        • I’m not trying to knock your way of seeing the solve, I just HEAR the same thing with first year searchers, and again, your write up was awhile ago, so may not pertain, but, in the write up, you just pick a place that fits. For you, it’s the Rio, and then give a history lesson on why it is wwwh. You even said yourself, there are many places where wwh, f has said it also, but in order to solve for it, if it is solvable, the poem would need to tell you where to start, or better yet, line 5 would have to have the answer in it. Which it doesn’t. Line 5 just says what it says, and f has said that the answer to wwwh is not given in a subtle way, anywhere. So what I’m getting at is how? Seeing that the answer is not just staring us in the face, or obvious, and taking what f has said, then how can you have solved for wwwh? It’s impossible in this format. I’m not saying that wwwh cannot be found, it just cannot be solved for. So I question all those who say that they HAVE solved for it.
          To just pic the Rio, starting out, is just a guess, period. Maybe you would need to show how the poem solved would give this spot, (do not want you to divulge that info now), but in the write up, if no explanation on how the poem gave this starting spot, and then just saying this is the spot, equals a guess.
          If this was the way to go about solving the poem, then finding any place that has warm waters, or a canyon close by could be used. History could mesh the area all together, but it’s the POEM that has to do all this work. If you are using later info in the poem, this is also no good, must be by the 5th line. In solving the poem, nothing in the first stanza or the 5th line says without a doubt that this certain place is wwwh. We are then left with maybe the answer is given in a subtle way. Which f has said is also a no-go.
          IDK, maybe your next write up will explain how you used the poem to solve, I can get on board with that, but, unless that is shown, have to be skeptical when someone says they solved something f has said has no answer.

          • Poisonivey;

            You say, ” If you are using later info in the poem, this is also no good, must be by the 5th line.” – Why is this so? Forrest has said repeatedly to read the poem over and over 6, 8 or 10 times…etc. Why?
            My belief is so that you have the contents of the WHOLE poem in your head, as you then begin to SOLVE individual lines.

            Why can’t I extract a thought or idea from a later line when I begin to solve for WWWH? I am not SOLVING this later line – I am not breaking the rule that says clues are consecutive – all I am doing it taking a bit of info from a later line (a hint – and hints help with the clues – or something like that) and using this info (hint) to then solve a clue.

            Why is this not possible? Just askin’ – JDA

          • JDA, you first need to address the ATF, then maybe I could take you a little more serious. But, to answer this, if the clues are contiguous, then when going down the poem, by the time you get to the 6th line, you would already know wwwh. A searcher, at the start, could just take the poem, go line to line, and solve the poem. Line 5 would be the first clue, if the info to solve is in later info, then that line would then be the clue. Line 5 is meant to refer to wwwh, the start, to go to the 6th line means you have passed the first clue, so the info, to keep it to line 5, must be in lines 1-5. (if you are solving clues like you say). If I find the answer in say line 8, then line 8 would be wwwh, this cannot be. Same holds true if it’s line 10,15,18,22,24 whatever.

          • My belief is so that you have the contents of the WHOLE poem in your head, as you then begin to SOLVE individual lines.
            Exactly. You then could solve for the “x” like the poem was written to do, that’s what f has said. That “x” didn’t come from solving clues, it comes from solving individual lines, which give the spot on a map. The end. You then can “find out”, identify wwwh. And, when you reference the poem, the path you take to ‘x” will have certain things that can be cross-checked with the poem. Those are your clues. Some clues could be distances, or directions, these would be solvable, but to just flat out solve for wwwh, that’s different. It needs to be learned, found, identified, because there is no answer for it individually. To say there is goes against what f has been saying.

  34. Hi ya JDA,

    No need for sorry, more like congrats.
    Back in 2015 I bought a house in searles valley for a song.
    Now the rehab is done and I have million dollar views everyday.
    Ya see I left the rat race of houses being so close together that if the neighbor
    sneezed I would catch myself saying bless you.
    If Dal would allow I would post a pic of the mountain views I have.

    HDD

      • Yes Sir.
        It’s a quite township. So peaceful with great views of the slate and argus mountains. No lawn to mow, just a 1955 M38A1 jeep to work on before
        mid spring. Maybe I can get some prospecting in before the heat of the summer. Still hunting parts for that ole war horse though.

        HDD

      • Meteorite country … just like Desertphile’s environs for his 27 (?) months in the Eastern Mojave just south of Death Valley NP.

  35. Well said Lucky D,

    We also need to be flexible enough to consider other possibilities.
    Rofl, if I counted how many times I had to rethink my solve my head would pound.

    HDD

    • I consider myself very lucky being the first time out of the chute next summer. With an all inclusive solve down to an exact spot. I have gone over and over it, and it just works. I have been taking the poem clues to other sites on the map, and they might work for 2-3 clues but not all, even when I spin the clues with my imagination trying to make a match. I have several locations that sounded and looked good, but they wash out, not being complete. I am glad to hear other searchers sure of their solves, and next summer should be interesting. Best of luck to everybody. Greg

      • Good luck to you also, greg. May I ask if you’ve shown your
        “all inclusive solve” to any trusted friends or relatives, asking
        for feedback (in case they might see a mistake that your own eyes can’t recognize)?

  36. yes my brother who will be making the trip with me, I gave him the starting point, he came up with the same 7 of the 9 clues. We had a discussion about the out 2, and he agrees this should put us on target. But like everyone else, it is a wait and see. At 65 I know better then to get too excited. But looking forward to spending time with my brother and enjoying the area. Should be a good time no matter what. Thanks for asking

  37. Good morning JDA,

    IF Dal would allow a Picture to be posted here I would share my mtn views.
    On bad days I can sit and get lost in my imagination, wondering those mtns with burro in tow prospecting. This is how I arrived at my current
    view of WWWH. My suggestion to anyone is to take time when out on a search to just sit and let go of all the thoughts concerning the chest for a few moments, take in the surrounding area and allow their mind wonder the area. Never can tell what insights might come to mind.

    HDD

    • HDD;

      Go to the top of each thread. On the right, you will see “Photos” – below that are “Searchers Photo’s”

      Send Dal an email with a photo attachment and ask that he post it under Searchers Photo’s – He will gladly do so – Then just post something that says that Dal just posted a photo you sent, and we will take a peek. – JDA

  38. IMO the tc rests
    at the Blaze no farther searching required (in distance).Only 2 lines between “found the Blaze ” and “go in peace ” right and I believe they both refer to the Blaze itself .All of course imo

  39. Hello All,

    As I sit here pondering WWWH, it occurred to me that many of my possible solutions have been misconceived. Often because I discarded the ideals of others presented here.
    Before I had to drop off of the net. I realized that I could use what I glean from the good ppl
    here as a sort of litmus test for any solve to any of my concepts.

    Much gratitude to all

    HDD

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