Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Seventy Two


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686 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Seventy Two

  1. Well, this page is certainly aptly named.

    I have a whole bunch of odd ends. But the oddest of the ends is actually the beginning. You just have to go past the end, to get there…..kinda like f had to do when he made a stop before the poem was complete, when he followed the clues.

    Danged odd end, if you were to ask….. 🙂

    • No kiddin on the odd end…. on our last botg, the trail “ended” abruptly by crossing a fairly deep creek. Yeah, just cross it, right. The trail does keep going but it is far less traveled because of that creek. Just thinking maybe an “end” for most hikers and campers.

      • In my opinion, maybe the “end” location could have a similar or identical description as the “begin” location, and traveling from one to the other might be like going in a circle or cycle of some kind. I don’t like holden onto that idea too long,
        because being dizzy makes me want to puke.

      • 🙂 ….just checkin’ to see who’s where, figgered YOU would pick up on it…..stay cool bro and keep on keeping on

    • I had a dream where Mr. Fenn was showing me a book. I could not read it. He said “you have to get all 10, it’s right here” and pointed to a page with sentences that I could not make out. He then closed the book and walked away. We were in a tunnel similar to a subway tunnel. Suddenly, he turned right. When I caught up to the spot, there was no opening. He was gone.

        • Then you better call him, best not to leave Forrest waiting. My dreams tend to connect patterns I otherwise would not have seen. Though at this point I feel my dreams of finding the chest are pretty much moot.

          • I vivid dream almost every night all my life- sometimes lucid but those are more rare- can be practiced.. Imagination is a form of daydreaming. Poetry can be likened as a telling of a daydream story. Dreams are full of allegory, figurative, metaphoric visual art stories- akin to poetry.

            Perhaps this poem can be viewed from a daydream perspective ?

            Can you see the dream at your solve location?

            Dreams never die, when all the birds are singing in the sky 🙂


          • I also lucid dream though not of late (I took a product called neuroclarity for a week which generally shuts that ability off for about a month). My dreams have been vivid almost every night (which is a nice break and, in my case, the rarer of the two). I sadly can’t see the dream, or dream of, my solve area of late. Plus, though I love vivid dreams, I am usually rushing to leave in the morning so haven’t been able to write them down so can’t remember them. If I nap during the day I usually don’t dream (too short).

            “reams never die, when all the birds are singing in the sky” True, but of late the birds haven’t been singing for me…though I do have a video of a huge crow (fat from West Yellowstone) behaving in a manner that suggested the performance was for food. This of course was not far from a sign that warned not feed the wildlife so I didn’t…and I don’t think that crow was happy. Now if I see a murder of crows I don’t hang around as they might be plotting their revenge.

          • On the transition from vivid back to lucid I had a dream this morning that gave me numbers…and sadly, that is all I can remember.

    • I saw exactly where the chest is hidden, but I was flying way to fast and high. Plus didn’t know how to land… sub

    • I had a dream about where treasure is and woke up. First words out of my mouth were, “I can’t believe it is that simple!!!”

      • That’s funny because I’ve been having nightmares because I can’t get to my spot soon enough!

        Dream on, Dream on, Dream on… AIHIYIYIYIYIYI….Sing it S.T.!!!

  2. Afana –

    Right, that’s the phrase.
    Your effort will be worth the cold

    Effort here refers to the deed
    Worth stands in for benefit
    Cold means withdraw

    This stanza in the poem serves as a Quitclaim. As long as Fenn was the owner of the property the quitclaim cannot be challenged.

    Again that’s my opinion. By all means feel free to cahse down anything you think may lead you to the treasure that everybody else found 2 stanzas back.

    • Lugnutz on December 4, 2018 at 10:49 pm said:

      This stanza in the poem serves as a Quitclaim. As long as Fenn was the owner of the property the quitclaim cannot be challenged.

      So what you’re saying is that you think the land where the TC is located is on land that FF ONCE OWNED? Maybe through a LLC or something that can’t be traced?

      The reason I ask this is because a while back someone mentioned that one of the lines in the poem anagrammed into “Land I once owned”. If that’s the case this could be a game changer.

      Carry on Lugnutz!

    • Funny about that no one has found the treasure two stanzas back and IMO no one ever will. Did you ever wonder why “effort”( the only word in the poem with ff) and “worth “both have “or” in the middle? ff or t will be w or th ??? Not quite correct but in that vein. ??

      • Tim, efft will be w or th the old. It’s a part of the poem that is giving letter values. Line 13, w is e and fo, u nd “the” “b” lazy. Here w=efo, and w=efft. Efo happens to be short for effort. In the end, here are the values:
        e=3, f=1, o=3, t=2, h=2, w=7, L=1, d=1.
        “the” = 7, you need “7” “b” lazy. Would look like a “97”. Which is what “marvel gaze” is. In ’97, f would be 66, or FF. 97 is reference to Andrew Marvell, Upon Appleton House. He was a poet that lived 57 years. It is he and Eric Sloane that help with finding the blaze, IMO. E. Sloane living to 80, both of those values are what your letter values will equal. Primary = 80, secondary = 57. That would lead to pg. 137, dancing with the stars, which leads to the Bighorn Medicine Wheel, and a whole bunch of things there, possibly a map to the bells. The map would consist of spokes 24, of course, but also from his ATF, the year 12016. using opposites you get 8 spokes: 24 opposite 9, 12 opposite 26, 20 opposite 5, and 16 opposite 1. 12016., or 12,20,16. 8 spokes for 8 bells. Adding them up gives you the word “that” is key. (1,5,9,12,16,20,24,26). The 24th spoke, if extending a tangent, creates a 22 degree angle, which is his “Rainbow”, (rainbow halo, in mountains, is seen at 22 degrees). Forrest Fenn = 14 8, or pages in the book, and 22.
        All this is what the letter values help you answer. Values are all in the poem.

        • WOW! Okay in my solve this line is reversed , due to Perseus’ mirror shield being found , after deciphering the blaze. So “the code, w or th will be your ff or t “. IMO this is telling us to go back thru the poem and replace the letter w with ff and the letters th with t. In conjunction with the previous line “So hear me all and listen good” ie He ar me all, you will find only one line that retains a th to be replaced by t … “So why is it that I must go”. Forrest has said no codes will help you find the TC(paraphrase) but he did not say there were no codes in the poem. The coordinates thus gained may lead to something other than the TC , maybe one of the bells you are speaking of. All in my opinion , of course.

          • As far as line 13 goes I believe that ” You’ve been wise ” portion = You have been wise… with have = halve as seen previously in the poem. So be/en and wi/se or b northeast and Y southeast imo.

          • So (“he” are “me”) = some
            all and l is ten (go odd)
            A=1, L=3, or A=7, L=1.

            You are attempting to solve the poem, which is good. Solving the poem will solve the clues, right. Keep with it Tim.

            As for coordinates, the poem’s coordinates get me to clue 8, where I think a bell is buried. Also, the coordinates, when added together, then subtracted from each other will give a 4 digit number, 2442, or 66, or FF. That number is also in the poem, reference the clues. I call it his signature.

            Good luck Tim, Winter is the time for brainstorming…

    • First off, Dal I apologize for not having the exact reference source. Lugnutz, I remember reading or hearing Mr. Fenn mention he was going to have his piece of the public lands. If so, no quitclaim required. IMO

  3. I am just starting this chase but getting caught up rather quickly.
    I’m a former UNM Lobo graduate & football player living in Florida. I’m also a disabled Army Veteran Vietnam era. The challenge is On!
    So it’s exciting to join the circus to hunt this treasure down without becoming a real circus clown.
    Hope not to “O’Fenn” anyone. I’m also Irish! Lol

  4. A canister of bear spray was punctured at an Amazon warehouse and 24 workers were hospitalized. Sounds like it can be really nasty if released in an enclosed space. As always, be safe.

    • Bear spray may be the difference between life and death… however, bear spray is not a substitute for following proper bear avoidance safety techniques.

  5. From Forrest Fenn, Surveyor”: (from the Cheat Sheet)

    ” . . . .As you rode your horse into town you had to pass 80 telephone poles in order to reach a mile because they were 1 chain apart, or 66 feet. And each chain had 100 links, if you wanted to break it down further. Road rights-of-way also were 1 chain wide. And 80 square chains made a square mile, or 640 acres – and that was 1 section of land. . . .”

    This is kinda late to be noticing this, but there’s an error above. It seems like the guy who knew the difference between two miles square and two square miles would have caught this.

    If 80 chains makes a mile (linear) (it does), then (80 chains) squared makes a square mile. Not 80 square chains.

    I sorta doubt that this error will impact anyone’s solution, but I note it for the record.


    • Mike;

      The funny part of your quote comes before what you posted. It reads “Since Richard mentioned the olden days let’s harken to 1620 when universal land measures first became law in England and America. .As you rode your horse into town you had to pass 80 telephone poles in order to reach a mile because they were 1 chain apart, or 66 feet. …”

      He connects the Universal Land Measures of 1620 with telephone poles. The telephone was not invented until March 10, 1876. Pretty funny if you ask me. 🙂 JDA

      • As I pointed out in other discussion, I suggest to consider in your solve one of Fenn’s hints, “at least 8.25 miles North of Santa Fe.” The distance he mentioned could mean 82.5 miles or 825 miles North of Santa Fe. I think somebody also discussed about this long time ago on this site.
        — MK

        • MK, you said that before, did he chose that number for a reason? he meant it to be a multiplier of the actual distance or am I missing your point?

          • Hi Oz10,
            What I really wanted to say is that sometimes Fenn’s hints are not 100% right, IMO, so we’d better accept his hints as only partially right. So I think the second part (“north of Santa Fe”) of his hint is right, but the numbers in the first part (“8.25 miles”) could be wrong. So I’m suggesting that we can consider his number to be actually 82.5 or 825 miles instead. I think I saw the same comment long time ago on this site.
            — MK

        • I think there may be a possibility to the 8.25 miles North of Santa Fe may relate to distance, but while looking at 8.25, I see “.25”, as in a quarter, and once more George Washington.

      • Yeah, I noticed that. I’d bet that Forrest did, too.
        As I’ve been saying elsewhere, the hint is not about distance.

  6. Just wondering if anyone has figured out how deep a hole is? Are rabbit holes vertical… or horizontal?

      • You know, I saw Alice last week. She offered me a bottle that had *Drink Me* written on it. That’s all I remember…

    • You know, I know, all that search know how deep their hole is.
      We all have them and the depth varies on each individual.
      they’re usually as deep as we make them.
      Some are so deep they never get out.
      We are all creating holes.
      That’s what we do.

      • Jake… on my last trek into the rabbit hole I packed a rucksack with extra flip flops, a grass mat, and a couple of sets of chop sticks… just in case.

        • That’s what I call observing, thinking and preparation and I’ll bet you moved with confidence.
          I usually bring a few carrots and potatoes to make some stew when I find the rabbit.

    • RE rabbit hole depth, didn’t ff say something like “. . . if you don’t know where the hole is it really doesn’t matter; if you find your head up the hole, though, the answer will be obvious.”

      (Does that help?)

    • Maybe the question was how deep is a whole? Since a quarter is .069″ thick and four times that is .276″ that makes a whole not very deep at all.

      Seeing the .069″ dimension reminds me that some casinos in Vegas have banned calling out O-69 when that number is drawn. Another instance of an overreaction to avoid offending anyone.

      • I hope you’re kidding about that. This posting is all in my
        opinion. But I’m off topic about Fenn’s Treasure. So here’s something that may relate: In Archie comic books I saw a
        character called Moose, but didn’t intend to lay a double
        whammy on anyone.

  7. I’ve done walked over quite a bit of geography of art & history for seven Thrill years, and now I’m wimpy too. But one answer I already know is that the Preface is Important Literature, and I’m wondering if anybody else thinks that nickel hamburger ain’t just chopped meat? Wanna discuss?

      • Hmmm. Lots of thoughts about the nickel, Big Tree, James Earl (the end is nigh & go in peace) but none about the mint…. if thats what you had in mind.

        • Denver has been mentioned which one might think of The Mint, and one could consider the others, which Philadelphia is one and has been mentioned, but I was thinking more of The Declaration of Independence being an/the Important Literature. President Jefferson also commissioned Lewis and Clark, which has been mentioned, too. Different things that come to mind.

          • Philadelphia is the city of brotherly love. Maybe it is a reference to Skippy. Also, the full name of Wimpy is J. Wellington Wimpy. Alliteration is important to my “warm waters”. Also, the character of Wimpy is based on a man named William Schuchert and was nicknamed Windy Bill. Hummm…

          • Pdenver, It’s a big deep sea isn’t it? My thread on this one wound down to a family name which surfaces in all 4 target states on one sort of geographical feature or another. That’s not uncommon, but some of the elements on the thread were quite unique to the clues. The poem could be a link to link to link path, where each link in some way relates to the link before it and the link after it, but not to the other links in the chain… or lthey could all work together as a whole concept…. which I think is this type. More like poker where you lay your cards down all at once at the end. not like canasta of building suits. I forget, its been decades since I played either. I’m rambling now.

          • Pdenver, your linking Philly & the Declaration of Independence as Important Literature made me think that Stanza one might be a …. a Preamble…. the ‘before you walk’ stanza.

          • Hello OS2. “Alone in there” or just “alone” might sound a bit of being “independent”. Hmmm, makes me think of other things, too. I’ll have to think about this a little longer. The important literature is something to consider, and what makes it important? History? Usually, but maybe there’s something else. Can’t help but smile while contemplating. 🙂

      • When I try to connect Philadelphia and important literature,
        I think of the Declaration of Independence (and the Liberty Bell), while remembering that Ben Franklin’s grave is there.

      • PS; Has anyone ever been able to locate / confirm a Wimpy Restaurant in TX or any of the remaining states?
        Just curious?

        • There’s lots of Wimpy’s about the US, but none I think with a line of descent from the Chicago/Midwest chain from the ’30’s (which doesn’t appear to have ever spread beyond the Midwest, and which died out in the ’70’s).

          The current ones don’t appear to be connected by anything but the name, and I can’t tell how long they’ve been around. Many are individual restaurants, some have a couple/few locations. Texas, yes. Colorado, no.

          I don’t know the historical context (if any) of your question though. I only know Wimpy + hamburgers from Popeye cartoons when I was a kid (and the “Wimpy Bar” in an old Jethro Tull song from when I was in high school).


          • That’s the one.

            Our favorite driving-around song the year before was

            Flying so high, trying to remember
            how many cigarettes did I bring along?
            When I get down I’ll jump in a taxi cab
            driving through London town
            to cry you a song.

          • My point was, how would fenn know about how much a\their burgers cost if the restaurant was never in TX CO NM WY MT or adjoining states when he was a kid… TV came out in 1927, but how many ads might have been about burger joints? Or told about on radio?
            ” 1930’s…when I was a tyke and Whimpy hamburgers were a nickel.”
            How well known could this chain been that only 20 plus restaurants and none in the south or south west… that I can locate.
            I guess we’ll have to figure out the age of a tyke now…lol

            Just curious…

        • Aha, found the nickel/Wimpy connection.

          The Wimpy’s chain of that time was never in Texas or any of the other search states.

          Here’s an example of a standalone Wimpy’s from the ’30’s in Sapulpa OK, no connection at all to the Chicago group –


          And here’s a “classic” nickel burger Wimpy’s that likely, but not necessarily, was part of the Chicago company –


          No reason at all that there couldn’t have been standalone Wimpy’s all over the country, not affiliated with the Chicago chain. No national brand image protected by batteries of lawyers – what did they care (or even know) what you did two states away, as long as you weren’t going head-to-head?

          Given the popularity of the namesake, a “Wimpy hamburger” may have even been in circulation as a generic term (as opposed to a brand name). Like a “Dagwood sandwich” (or, later, Jell-O, Kleenex, Thermos, etc)


      • Seeker, You might want to check the differences between bronze & nickel… copper, brass, & bronze are known as the ‘red metals’…. perhaps this is what Fenn meant by “do not touch” in red letters in the story where he rests his arm on the head of a bronze Indian …. its an art.

        • I was wondering if you were leaning toward the wooden nickel or token mainly used during the depression… late 1920’s – to 40’s

          • Seeker, Metallurgy & materials was pretty much a dry hole for me, but I didn’t explore it as much as you engineery type guys do. Maybe you will perceive what I missed. Arts & soft sciences swim with the current in my cranium.

    • Important Literature
      important; having relevant and crucial value
      relevant- directly related, connected, pertinent to a topic
      crucial- essential, decisive for determining the outcome or future of something, extremely important, (archaic) cruciate, cross-shaped

      literature; the body of all written works, written fiction of a high standard

  8. I believe that multiple meanings of words must fit the solution for it to be nailed down. So, I was thinking about words that we gloss right over and maybe we shouldn’t. Take the word “but” for example. I looked up the word but and didn’t find anything unusual, BUT, when I looked up the word butt, a butt is an archery term and means target. So, “but too far to walk” could also mean “the target is too far to walk”. When you get to the part of the poem, “but tarry scant”, it can mean “the target is a blackish stone that has been sawn on 2 sides”. Now in the wood can mean a wooded area, but it can also mean bullseye as well. Another meaning of in the wood is in the saddle (as in – in the saddle between mountains). Title to the gold – Gold
    Is also used in archery meaning bullseye. There are lots of potential references to bullseyes.

    Sparrow, I know you wrote about an acrostic with the term butt. Your interpretation is different from mine, but you found it in the acrostic. I like your acrostic ideas.

  9. Does anyone out there have any suggestions on what to get three leprechauns and a one eyed giant of a man; turnip farmer for Christmas? They seem to have everything.

    • 1 F,

      Yep…a time-honored favorite: Stuckey’s Pecan Log Roll.
      You could send one my way if you get extras. Thanks. D.C.

    • If you have time, make something homemade. After thinking I was done making homemade goodies, I’m back at it again. I just stopped in to take a peek, so I better get back to finishing them.

    • Suggestion for the person who has everything. THE OFFICAL AUDUBON BIRD CALL. This little gizmo in small, fits in your pocket, is easy to use and ministers to the Call Of The Wild in us all. When resting from hiking all over the Rockies looking for that treasure just whip out your bird call and be amazed at all the avian creatures that come to call, no pun intends . No self respecting turnip farmer should be afield without one. It lights up the faces of all the leapercuns that have ever held one in their tiny hands. Worth more than its weight in gold and easy on the pocketbook!

      • I LIKE IT !!

        A bird call like that can also be used as a survival tool. I bet Fenn wished he had one on his exposition looking for Lewis and Clark.

        It reminds me of a story I read about a survivor of the dark days of WWII. He survived and avoided starvation by calling in birds with his whistle, which would be ensnared when they landed on his windowsill laced with fishing line.

        This fellow said he vowed at the time, if he would survive that predicament he found himself in….he would feed the birds every day of his remaining life (which he did)…like the bird man of Alcatraz.

        (Sounds kinda like somebody else I know)….

        1f Billy

  10. YEA – YEA – Got my signed – Doodled copy of the Revised OUAW. Have not yet had a chance to do much more than scan it, but very glad to have it – YEA 🙂 JDA

    • Congrats JDA… your ahead of me, I haven’t got one yet… enjoy your reading my friend… see ya

        • JDA: “You are lucky. Just Forrest’s signature and the doodle. Nothing (no comments) directed to or at me – no name boo-hoo Happy to have what I have though JDA”

          Yes, I feel fortunate, for sure. It was definitely not what I imagined! 🙂


          • Who knows cj – Christmas is coming soon, maybe Santa will deliver me a surprise – I’m not gonna hold my breath though 🙂 JDA

          • I am just grateful that Forrest is willing to sign so many books. Gives a nice personal touch to the chase. JDA if you fill your lungs with pure oxygen you can hold your breath considerably longer in case you change your mind.

            Forrest, make sure to leave the chimney off and a suprise nearby so Santa can get it to JDA.

          • I meant on Christmas only, not all month long. Not that Forrest will see this or let his feet get cold.

      • Thanks cj1066 – Very similar to the “Running Man” – but going left to right vs. that “Running Man” that was running right to left. It is cute 🙂 JDA

        • Cool…I got a Running Man going from left to right, as well. And the first letter of my last name (M) has a couple of doodles making it look like a fly rod. Then there is something else – maybe nothing – but the second letter of my first name looks a bit odd. I’m still trying to figure it out.



          • cj

            You are lucky. Just Forrest’s signature and the doodle. Nothing (no comments) directed to or at me – no name boo-hoo 🙁
            Happy to have what I have though 🙂 JDA

          • Clint, on December 11, 2018 at 6:27 am said:

            “Hi CJ what is the second letter in your name and can you describe how it looks? Clint”

            Sorry, Clint, I’ve been away for a bit and did not see this post.

            I am reluctant to share the second letter just now. I’d like to think about it some more and, after I’ve come up with a couple of ideas, I may post an image, asking others their thoughts. I don’t want to put anything out there now that may bias thinking (I’ve got enough of that going on in my own mind — lol)

      • Indeed, congrats, JDA! My copy was signed (just like all my other books, as requested) but nothing else — no doodle and not personalized. So Forrest can still claim that he has never communicated with me, so no one can accuse him of providing me any private information. 😉

        • Zaphod73491,

          Hey, when I get mine I totally expect a MAP, a DOODLE, and a THANK YOU note attached! Also, you maybe should be getting out a black light because I’ve heard Forrest likes to use invisible ink! Just think about it! Now I’m going to go out and buy me a black light! Great thinking, right? 😉 ANKH!

          Carry on Zaphod73491!

          • ByGeorge: forgot to add that amusingly I *do* have a blacklight and I will absolutely take up your suggestion. How hilarious would that be if your suspicions panned out? 😉 I’ll let you know…

        • ByGeorge: I hope you get the whole 9 yards! 🙂 In the meantime, I entertain myself by pretending I’m special because I seem to be the only one that Forrest has never emailed back or graced with a doodle of personalized note. 😉

          • Zaphod73491
            on November 27, 2018 at 9:55 am said:

            Love that movie, Jonathan! Hey… it even provides the answer to the word that is key: ANKH.
            Reply ↓

            Jonathan L
            on November 27, 2018 at 10:03 am said:
            You sure it isn’t the upsilon? you should email me what you think about ankh
            Maybe go to carousel together

            It’s an entertaining thought(invisible ink) but it was just ALL in fun. We all know Forrest has more integrity than that. You often seem to reply to only certain portions of my comments, which is fine with me. I totally expect that. For such a smart guy you certainly seem to sidestep more than one would expect.
            So what’s the word that is key? I know what it stands for but who’s Johnathon L? He seems to think that “Y” is the key but IMO it’s not. And the ANKH is not a “KEY”. IMO. Just wanted to get a feel for your truthfulness is all. Maybe we can go to the carousel together?

            Nah, I don’t need “renewing”. I get dizzy enough getting “spun” . Looking in Colarado? REALLY? I’m feeling “Dizzy”!
            How much snow is in your Montana area that you can’t REACH the final resting spot? Wait, hold on, maybe you should get “Dizzy Dean” to go with you? Don’t forget the ladder, eh? Hmmmm?

            Carry on Zaphod73491!

        • Hi Zap I got my OUAW revised book order yesterday,I didn’t want to wait for signed copy or special doodles like some are getting.

    • Hi, all. I just tried to order a copy via the home page for this site and it says the book is out of print. Is that correct or is there a different link?

  11. I was watching Cowz & Kpro’s Vlog #120 and it seemed absurd to me that the 1st 2 clues are within 500′ of the treasure.
    I think it’s also silly to think the 3rd and 4th clues are within 200′.

    Unless Fenn killed those early searchers that were that close LOL.

    This feeds into what Writis was saying and have to agree with him.
    If the clues get easier to figure as you go, the treasure would have been found IMO.

    • Hi Jake,

      I think MM said it slightly different: The first 2 clues get you to within 500′ of the treasure (not are within). Same with clues 3&4 w/ 200 feet. He was saying clues 3 and 4 must be between 200 and 500 feet.

      I have to look those quotes over again myself, but his interpretation is largely in line with my own.

      • Can you imagine how many searchers had sent Fenn emails with pictures of where they went late 2011 and 2012?
        If I was one of the 2 parties spoken of, I would go back to all the areas I sent Fenn a picture of and put a 500′ radius around those spots and check thoroughly.
        All the clues within 500′ doesn’t make any sense to me and those early 200 footers would have found it.

        • You fail to see the logic in a small solve, Jake.
          Technically the clues are not within and particular small area… the searcher remains with in a small area.

          “Your” destination is small “Its” location is huge.

          I think folks apply ‘destination’ as the chest… this is a target fixated way of thinking.
          The idea of the poem is to be “wise and found the blaze” The destination is where you need to stand at ~ “the blaze” to see the clues, IT is the blaze. The blaze is a clue because IT leads to the chest.

          But ya may not know it is the blaze unless the poem is read as intended, not the way we hope it should be.

          A twist of a saying: It’s not what it is, it’s what I can make you think it is. The poem is straightforward… we create the illusion, by not understanding the instructions… and only read it as directional.

          in theory….

          • There’s logic in both small and large area solves Seeker.
            If I put them both on a scale, I come out with a larger area as in “big picture”.

            Small area has the downfall of someone figuring out the critical 1st clue and canvassing the area around it many times with their friends after the 200/500′ comments.

            Large area would be much more successful in succeeding what the poem infers.

            Look at it this way.
            If you’ve figured the first clue and the treasure was within 500′ away. It would be a lot easier.

            If you figured the first clue was 60 miles away from the treasure, it would be a lot more difficult.

            Make sense?

          • Seeker IMO the Blaze should be jaw droppingly noticeable ,but that’s just me.Hard for me fathom there being any doubt when seeing it. No? I’ll go one step and say even a non searcher would have to say ” well that’s unusual ” again just my thoughts and realize I could be totally off the mark.

          • “Nobody is gonna accidentally stumble on that treasure chest.”
            “It’s not gonna be easy to find and nobody is gonna accidentally trip over this thing. They’re gonna have to figure out the clues, decipher what they say and go right straight to the treasure chest.”

          • Ken,

            Exactly. No one will know the blaze without all the clues deciphered, done, utilized properly [ in this theory ]
            “They’re gonna have to figure out the clues, decipher what they *say*…”

            LOL not sure if you might agree with that or not, but that seems to fit the idea / theory.
            ~ IF you can find the blaze, the distance to the chest would be obvious.
            ~ You can’t find the blaze without the first clue
            ~ If you can’t find the chest, go back to the first clue
            ~ if you’ve been wise and found the blaze
            ~ if I was standing at the chest I would see…

            The poem revolves around the blaze, and what the blaze is and does.

            Q~ “Can the blaze be pre-determined by the poem or can it only be determined at the search area?- becky”
            A~ “Becky, you are a rascal to ask that question and I have been sitting here for about fifteen minutes trying to decide what to say. Well, it has been thirty minutes now and I think I’ll pass on the question. Sorry.f”

            Read that question with this theory in mind… How would you attempt to answer it?
            Sure it can be determined in the feild, if you follow the clues as intended, but is that “only” capable in the field?
            Can the blaze be “pre-determined” by the poem? I don’t think it can be known what it is [the object/blaze] from the poem, but it surely can be found with /within the poem and pre-determined about *the process of discovering it.*

            What really matters is what ‘pre-determined’ was meant as; the object or where that object is at?
            It would be a very difficult question to answer without giving away, **how the poem was intended to be read**… if this theory is correct.

          • What ken said…
            “Nobody is gonna accidentally stumble on that treasure chest.”
            “It’s not gonna be easy to find and nobody is gonna accidentally trip over this thing. They’re gonna have to figure out the clues, decipher what they say and GO RIGHT STRAIGHT to the treasure chest.”

        • 500 feet away.
          In any direction.
          That’s a 1000 foot sphere.

          Are you with me?

          There are over 500 million cubic feet in the sphere.

          Even in the land is flat that’s still 765,000 sq ft.

          And the box fits within just one.

          Am I correct Zap?

          • Hi Lug: close enough for gov’t work — ~785 thousand square feet if on flat land, ~524 million cubic feet within the 500-foot-radius sphere.

          • Zaps right, 785,000 sq ft.
            Less than 13 football fields?
            Not a very large area if you make sure your search grid path lines are about 24′ apart to account for the 12′ statement.

            Much less than 27,878,400 sq ft in a sq mile.

            To simplify the distance to travel and search I will square root the 785000 to a square area 886′ x 886′.
            Divide the 886′ by 24′ and you have roughly 36 linear hikes @ 886′ long. 31,896′ total feet hiked about 6 miles total and very doable in one day as long as the terrain isn’t too steep and you can probably eliminate any area where a 79 or 80 year old couldn’t go.

            Just bored.

          • Jake: I go through exactly the same sort of calculation when grid-searching desert playas for meteorites. (Of course, it’s a lot easier to search a flat playa with no obstructions than it is mountainous terrain.) To canvas one square mile at 40-foot resolution (I assume I can spot a marble-sized meteorite from 20 feet away) requires 132 miles of walking.

          • You have to have some sort of search system that’s efficient especially when you have to travel over 1k miles to get there and you only have a limited amount of time to search.
            I’m sure you use gps to document the areas you already canvassed seeing there won’t be any meteorites in those areas for thousands of years.
            Must take over a week for a sq mile.

          • Hi Jake — Yes, I have GPS track logs for all my meteorite searches. The nice thing about dry lake beds is that they’ve been collecting meteorites for 11,000 years or more, so almost every dry lake in California, Nevada, Arizona, Oregon and Utah has at least one meteorite, and some have had hundreds.

            When I go out to search I can typically cover 20 miles or so in a day. Still, I do get skunked from time to time — particularly when I’m not the first meteorite hunter to visit a place.

            These days, there are no dry lakes in the western U.S. that haven’t been visited by at least one space rock hunter, with the exception of those playas that are on military land.

  12. Seeker, respectfully, I’ve thought about this subject for a couple day’s now after reading some of your comments here. I probably shouldn’t start my post by saying I feel sorry for you but, over the last 3 yrs. you appeared quite astute in your analogy of the poem but again, as you’ve stated lately in self sarcasm, you may be confused. Lets break down stanza 2, considering IT’S probably the most pertinent. Begin IT WWWH, begin what? The search imo. TIITCD, take what? Imo the search. IF I understand what Mr. Fenn is saying, then you do have to travel some distance. To my thinking, then you’re not in the same BEGIN IT spot. I hope you can appreciate my post considering I can only type one key at a time.

    • PS Seeker, I’ve never thought that the totality of clue’s are in one location. I’ve made several botg eye opening treks over the years. I still don’t ascribe to your scenario as far as take IT ALL IN one location. I’m just as full of IMO like everyone else. Take it or leave it.

      • Well Afana, we all have different ideas.

        I think your missing the concept.
        I used this example before… Someone is standing atop of the Empire Stated building [observation deck [WWH].
        Looking down a row of buildings- a canyon [lets say northward] they spot something resembling hoB.
        What is the most likely thing you would do? It seems you would now make your ways to that location [be it a city block or a mile away doesn’t matter]. That is the basic action many, if not all, would take. Simply because they might be misunderstand “take it In” as a movement they need to do, rather than a visual sighting of the clue. Now they walk, drive, take a train, bus, hop skip and jump to hoB. { in which case they may have the correct hoB, but they misinterpret “Take It In” and “NF,BTFTW” { lets call them clues 3 and 4} So they only got the ‘first two clues correct.’

        In my theory… I can find the same hoB, only I don’t see any other reference, other than the canyon.
        I move to the west side of the observation deck and see things that could represent other clue. I adjust my position [lets say on the NW corner] and everything is now in view… I’m at WWH, looking down a canyon, have a hob, a meek place a creek to follow which all lead back to this single spot on the observation deck… The NW corner is the blaze.
        And no one, not even a search, would know the ‘NW corner’ of the observation deck is a blaze unless the got ‘all’ the clues correct.

        In this scenario, the blaze is only known by the one who ‘followed’ the clues..including the instructional clues, properly. You will never find the blaze without the correct WWH out of the many, and you will not know if you have the correct WWH until the blaze is discovered, and the chest is revealed.
        Hence the need to nail down clue one. Be in a fixed spot at it.

        Now imagine WWH being a lake, a waterfall, rivers merging or anything else we can come up with… we would still need to align the clues in the correct spot in any of those locations.

        Jake would like to think that [ for example, lets use Habgen lake MT ] we just show up at a WWH and that’s all is needed and we tear 500′ of shoreline up and we’ll find the chest. only he never aligned the clues, never discovered the blaze… he’s still in stomp mode. Not unlike your process, simply because of three words “take it in”

        So you misunderstand the concept of the theory… the clues are not close… they can be a mile, two miles plus away… only you don’t go to them.

        • Seeker;

          The only question I have regarding your theory is this:

          “What is there in the poem that told you to go to the Empire State Building, and not some other tall building in NYC?

          Something in the poem has to tell you the correct WWWH. If not, one is throwing darts.

          How did you get to the Empire State Building? Drive, walk, take a taxi? Is it important? Just askin’ – JDA

          • LOL Umm, My only answer to that is… Duh!

            That is what has stumped most of the searcher and why four different states [ and at one time other states and Canada ] are being searched.

            The theory I presented is not answering what a deciphered clue is… it is simply a reading of the poem, keeping in mind how [ so far ] everyone who deciphered WWH correctly [or the first two clues], screwed up everything else.

            The building is an example… use any landscape ya like for the scenario, the hypothetical, idea, theory… it’s still the same premise. The theory is all about observing and locating, not stomping and looking. Don’t go where an 80 yr old with a heavy backpack can’t.

            He’s not going down a canyon only to do it again, or cross a river with a 20 plus lb anchor on his back, bring a raft with him, hike miles between clues… IMO he park, walk maybe a 1/4 to where he needed to be [ where all the clues meet ] Period.
            Did the same thing one more time, and got back in his car and left.

          • JDA, … T he Empire State building is your observation point of the big picture.. your eyes looking down at the poem.
            Heres a similar idea, in many less words: Quickly sketch a 5 pointed star. … If you just mark the 5 points on your map, they will make a circle and you’d naturally suspect the TC is hidden within the circle area. But if you drew the 5 legs from point to point without lifting the pencil off the paper (or map), you’d see the star with the little pentagon in the center…. greatly reducing your search box. Draw it on a map and imagine each point IS Landing ON, OR, POINTING TO a clue site.

            { a quick sketch a 5 pointed star: .
            1. draw a mountain, an inverted V, that’s 2 strokes, 3 end points.
            2. Then head NW, crossing the left side of the mountain about a third of the way up from its base.
            3. Then head due E crossing both sides of the of mountain, about 1/3 of the way down from the mountains peak.
            4. Then head home, to the place you began. .… Voila! a star. The big picture. }

            The clue sites can encircle the TC site, Its necessarily be a linear path. If you start your mountain with the right leg, all your turns are ever drawing nigh (left).

          • JDA, others…. sorry I screwed that up a bit. It was just a loose example…. the path may not be as linear as some think.

          • Os10,

            I like the concept. But I’m not getting the idea of “following” the clues when the chest was hidden.

            Be it a star, a square, a triangle etc. It’s all about mapped locations only… then all that is needed to be done is, go to where that map points to. Is that really ‘following’ the clues ‘when’ the chest was hidden?
            I mean, fenn wouldn’t even need to ‘see the clue’s references’ nevertheless ‘on the ground’.. he would just go to the one spot… right?
            Or am I missing something in your explanation?

          • OS2;

            I have no problem with it being a star or a building. My question was/is, How or why did you or seeker decide to go to the center of the star, or to the observation deck of the Empire State Building?

            Forrest says, BIWWWH – This is clue #1. As Seeker said, that is our challenge, to figure out, among the many, what is the correct WWWH.

            Something in the poem has to lead us to that spot – What is it (within the poem) that tells us this very valuable piece of information?

            Thanks for your star suggestion – JDA

        • I’m a proud stomper from point A to B and not a bonker Seeker.
          Your theory supports Fenn following the clues by sight from a distance or mind and not physically being there.

          • Of course he had to be there.. how else could he “see” the clue’s references.

            If you’re standing in your front yard and see a maple tree, a hedge, a rose bush and the house, you see them all standing in that one spot.
            If you’re behind your house, do you see all of them? Nope. So you are not at the blaze…
            Just because you know the place well, you still need to be there, in just the right spot to view everything… Geezus, a five year old can figure that out.
            You be that proud stomper, Jake… the poem is doing its job.

          • By ‘bonker’ do you mean a pinball bounce-off type move?…. my ‘star’ pattered is a little more structured, less random. But it is a pattern that overlays the search area (like the view from the Empire State Bldg would overlay the island of Manhattan…. Its been over 60 years since I was there, I dont remember the actual view) …. I am really busy now, cant explain more. Will do so later. There are 2 critical points … where the observer stands, where the TC is. The clues are NOT necessarily in a single line …. I missed putting the word NOT in my first post. Sorry.

        • Seeker, I may be confused but, I’ve seriously tried to visualize your theory and, If It were true, then Mr. Fenn has pulled the trickiest rabbit out of his hat. One would also need a good pair of binoculars. Seriously, you said ” the theory I presented is not answering what a deciphered clue is… It is simply a reading of the poem…” On that premise, how do you fit the line Not far BUT, TFT WALK In your theory? It tells me some other mode of transportation was used after Begin it.

          • Afana;

            I am not Seeker, but let me have a go at it.

            Can you see 200′ with or without binoculars? If yes, then Seeker’s idea works. Go to Google Earth – Go to your search area. Pick a spot that is near where you think Indulgence MAY be. Using this spot as the center, draw a circle that is 200′ as its radius.

            Now, envision four or five spots on the edge of this circle. Put a marker pin at each of these envisioned spots. Put one pin at the center, and call this one Indulgence/Blaze. Call the other pins WWWH, Meek Place, hoB, HL, and WH.

            If I understand Seeker’s theory, the center pin is also “a” WWH as well as the Blaze, and where Indulgence is..

            With 5 pins, we have skipped a couple of possible points like Canyon Down, No Paddle Creek and Tarry Scant, but you get the idea (I hope).

            Will Seeker’s Small Area Theory work? Well, it does for me.

            I use a “Big Picture” area search to get me to the “Center Point” that Seeker calls Blaze/WWH and Indulgence. Once there, I CAN see NEW places in my now Small Area (Within 200′ circle) that match my WWWH, HLnWH etc spots – I will
            test it this spring – JDA

          • JDA, Thanks for your reply. I get seekers theory but, I find it difficult to agree. Good luck to us all next Spring. Winter is just to long and drags this chase out forever.

          • Afana;

            That is what makes the Chase so much fun. We can all offer out theories – Some work or fit with our ideas, and some do not. Have fun sorting through other ideas, and we look forward to hearing what new theories you might have – JDA

          • Afana,

            “Not Far” ~ to look, no binoculars needed. “But Too Far To Walk” ~ don’t go. It’s basically an instruction, Not to Walk away. You are where you need to be at already.
            I think what many don’t get this the idea because they can’t fathom… the blaze at WWH. But that doesn’t mean the other clues become obsolete. The only way to located the blaze is by utilizing the other clues.. not stomp to them.
            It’s about finding that sweet spot at WWH, nailing down the fix point.
            Take it in… view.
            Put in below… view… after seeing hoB’s reference.
            Stanza three is what you see… everything ‘drawing’ to you. which should place you at HLnWH which is part of or affiliated with WWH and possibly the depiction of the blaze itself. Only you would never find it without knowing where/and what hoB is.

            IMO this is an observational search. Only everyone seems stuck on a stomping mode only. So stuck on a stomping mode, this theory is perplexing to them. They can’t understand because they don’t see how “take it in” can mean, look.
            The guys might get this crude analogy; you see a pretty lady walking down the side walk. To draw attention to her, to your buddies you might say; take that in. It’s the same concept as ‘take it in’ the canyon down. In this case the canyon and the gal are being viewed.

            Sorry for the “that’ reference ladies… but I did say crude analogy. it’s that PC- politically correct thing.

          • Seeker: the trouble with “take it in” meaning to observe or even relish/admire the view is that in the context of the poem, it doesn’t say that. For that connotation you’d need a colon and probably a dash for clarity:

            … and take it in: the canyon down — not far, but too far to walk.

            The dash (or something) is needed to indicate a missing word or words such as “it’s” or “which is”. In regular prose, one might write:

            “Begin it where warm waters halt, and take it in: the canyon down (which is not far, but too far to walk).”

            Without that tiny colon, the entire meaning changes: “take it” becomes an action. Yes, poetry is different than prose, so the writer is allowed a bit of leeway. But in this case, the lack of a colon completely alters the meaning (just like the missing comma in “Let’s eat grandma!”), and Forrest could no longer write what he did to you back in August 2014: “No Seeker, The poem is straight forward with no subterfuge in sight.”

            If your reading of those lines is what Forrest intended, then that part of the poem is NOT straight forward at all.

          • Zap;

            Although not a quote about a colon – maybe close enough:
            I would never encourage you to “screw responsibility,” as you say. I have encouraged everyone to get out in the mountains, but you should always think of your family first. Please don’t become obsessed with the search like some others. I have always said the poem will lead you to the treasure if you have the right map and know where to start. It is straight forward so there is no need to over-think it or look for commas and misspellings as clues. It was not written with the idea of fooling anyone.” f

          • I was in midstream of replying to JDA when our power went out a couple hours ago and it’s still out and, Oh! ” baby it’s cold outside.” Finally had to fire up the generator. Anyhow, following Seekers theory, the nagging question remains. Why can’t the LGFI get PAST the first 2 clues, lets say WWWH and Canyon down if there all within eyeshot or, a relatively small area as JDA proposed, a 400ft. circle?

          • Afana;

            Hope you stay warm. – Yes, for me, all can be found in that 400′ diameter circle… Including the hoB, which could be the “Home of the Blaze” – JDA

          • JDA,
            A 200′ to 400′ search area is relatively small, so I’m sure you’ll be the lucky one to accidentally stumble on that treasure chest.

            Good luck.

          • Dejoka;

            IF I do find Indulgence, it will have nothing to do with luck. It will be the result of over forty months (by then) of HARD work. Without work, I would not have wound up with a 400′ circle. I KNOW what to look for, and I KNOW (or at least I believe) where EXACTLY where to look. My actual search area is within a 20′ diameter circle, not a 400′ circle. I believe that I am that close. JMO

            P.S. I honestly am not bragging, I am just confident, so Jake, hold off on the rock throwing OK? – JDA

          • Afana,

            Fenn said, “…can not get closer than the first two clues”… not … PAST.
            Meaning she can not get closer to the chest than the first two clues [ with the tools she has ]. Hence the idea the blaze is very near or at WWH. I’ll add, the canyon is probably right there as well and why fenn’s comments always seem to say searcher deciphered the ~ first ‘two clues’

            Two thing:
            No, you don’t need any punctuation, be it a colon or anything else.
            The other; you definitely don’t need them in a “poem”… there are some poems written without any punctuation nor is it consider wrong.
            Fenn also has made it clear he uses punctuation at his own leisure… regardless of correctness or editor suggestions.

          • Seeker: if so, then you believe Forrest deliberately misleads. There is no alternative. And if you believe he’s allowed to deceive when he says he doesn’t do so (the poem is straight forward), then why believe anything he says — to include that he hid a chest at all? Why do you give him a free pass to mangle English just because he provided it in a poem?

            “I’m hungry. Let’s eat Grandma.” (Said the big bad wolf to little red riding hood from India.)

          • Zap my friend

            You tell Seeker what the poem says, but you’re wrong in your attempt.

            You don’t like what the poem actually says.

            The Waters halt and take it in the canyon down.

            That’s what it says. It doesn’t tell You as the reader to do anything.

            Read it.

            Begin it

            Where warm waters halt and take it in the can in down Not far but to far to walk

            It is the waters he is describing that put in below the home of Brown not far but too far to walk.

            The next instruction for you is From.

            First instruction is Begin, next if From

            I state my case for the record here among our friends.


          • Hi Lugnutz: you say I don’t like what the poem actually says, but I don’t know how you come to that conclusion. I find the poem to be quite simple and straightforward, and am perplexed by the pretzels into which others seem to want to twist it.

            “The Waters halt and take it in the canyon down.”

            The waters take *what* in the canyon down? You don’t mean that you are personifying the waters and saying that they are enjoying the view as they go?

            The simplest reading of that stanza is as a command to us, the readers, because the stanza starts with a verb that has no subject.

            [You, the implied subject] begin it [your quest, journey, route] where warm waters halt and [you] take it [road, river, creek, path] in the canyon down — not far, but too far to walk. (In other words, don’t walk — drive.)

            Simple, direct and straightforward. I am open to other interpretations, but they need to comply with the normal rules of English.

          • Zap ~ ‘Seeker: if so, then you believe Forrest deliberately misleads. There is no alternative.’

            Nice try, but that BS doesn’t fly.
            Has I have stated many times… everything from the poem to the ATF’s need honesty to be factual.
            However, there is an Alternative… the poem is read wrong.
            The readers make the assumption this is a stomping point to point solution only by not understanding, or not bothering to understand, words can mean different things.
            You want to be clever and add; ‘comply with the normal rules of English.’

            What the heck is your definition of Normal rules of English?
            A word’s meaning is normal to the rules, whether it fits your solve or not. It’s up to the reader to understand the ‘writers intent’.. especially in the venue fenn chosen to present the clues, a poem.

            Rules of Normal English.. LOL.
            Do you call taking letters from other words and creating a completely different word, Normal Rules of English? But frown on the idea we shouldn’t look up words to understand all there usages related to the poem??

            Holy crap!.. that gave me the biggest chuckle.

          • Seeker: this is an armchair treasure hunt. I suggest you treat it like one. Forrest can hide information in the poem any which way he likes. Many past armchair treasure hunts have used acrostics — so it’s neither original nor a hard concept. It’s something a 13-year-old can figure out.

            When I complain about your “take it in” interpretation of the poem, what I’m arguing is that YOU are making up rules of English to satisfy your non-stomping theory. If you think that’s the secret sauce to solving the poem, then so be it. Just don’t fool yourself into thinking that that interpretation is “straightforward.”

            Subject – Predicate – Object is straightforward.
            I challenge you (or anyone) to diagram that first sentence in stanza 2 such that the words “take it in” could be replaced with “admire the view” and still result in a readable sentence.

          • Zap,
            challenge excepted;
            Although I don’t need to post an example.
            Just look up the words “take it in”
            you’ll find many examples of “looking at something” which is the definition of ‘take it in’

          • Seeker: FAIL. You cannot arbitrarily replace those 3 words with a synonymous word or phrase. The resulting sentence has to make sense. What you’re doing is no different than this:

            “The girl tumbled down the stairs and lay prostitute at the bottom.”

          • Sure, Zap…
            Begin it where warm waters halt [ a place ] and take it in [view it in] the canyon down [ a place ].
            It’s such a hard concept to understand… right?
            Not far away, but too far too walk ~ to what is being seen… hoB [ a place ].
            “Put” can mean; to place something [but you’ll say it’s not, even though its found in dictionaries ]
            So, keeping with the concept of “viewing” down a canyon, “put’ in below” can mean ‘look below that place.’ [place your eyes below].

            Place; a particular position… in a viewing method, that is what is being done each and every time.. you’re viewing different places… you have to place your eye on that places.

            You don’t have to like it… but it’s not false. It just doesn’t work for your solve the way you hope. Oh! well.

            Can you imagine the hours and dedication it would have taken to produce a 166 word- 6 stanzas- 4 lines per stanza poem, containing clues, that had to match a landscape that you only recalled from memory, and keeping a rhyming theme and honest to each deliberate words, without flaw?

            By the way.. synonyms;
            A word or phrase that means *exactly* or *nearly the same* as another word or *phrase* in the same language.
            Synonyms are word that mean the same thing as other words.
            They are part of definitions of all words.

            Reference used; The Oxford English Dictionary.

            It doesn’t matter how “you think Forrest hid information in the poem” The man basically told us, what he did and how he felt about ~ how the poem came out exactly as he wanted.
            I’m not posting the interview again, it’s splattered all over Dal’s site from all the other times I did post it.

            What I find truly funny is, when others want to talk about the possibility of meanings of words, viewing as a solve method etc. The ones who complain most that it can’t be, are the ones who use Codes, Bibles verse, different languages.. pretty much everything fenn told us; would not assist in finding the treasures chest.

          • Never had any one say to me to “take it in” and I’m glad because I would have “punched them out”.
            “Take in the view” Yes.
            But it doesn’t say that in the poem.
            How disturbing we have become making pretzels.

          • Seeker,

            Take it in can be meant as to take your path in the canyon, it doesn’t necessarily only mean to take in the view.

            I could almost bet from some place wwwh would be high but not able to view down the entire canyon, let alone the bottom of the canyon in the real world in the RM. NFBTFTW I would say would be too far to even see, let alone the hoB from wwwh.

            Just Say’n

          • Whew, that was a climb…

            I never said nigh means ‘only’ a view, in the idea of an interpretation.
            However, in the context of stanza 2 and 3… it can work that way. Only ya have to be willing to read the poem with different meanings of many words. It’s not changing the word.. just how it’s understood ‘in plain English’

            These are ‘clues” we are reading about, not the actual clue’s references, And, not all clues have to be places. we have to figure that out, and supposedly by “all the information find the chest is in the poem”
            WWH, a place? Sure.
            Canyon a place, Sure.
            Does take it in ‘only’ mean a physical movement? Nope.
            NF,BTFTW ‘only’ to reference physical movement? Nope.
            HoB a place. Sure. But do we need to go there?
            Is stanza 3 describing places? Sure. But do we need to go there?

            The difference is, directional vs, instructions. All the ‘places’ are on a map/GE. All I’m saying is, the meanings of words [ shown in dictionaries, no matter if some are blinded by their personal solve to see them ] can be of instructions, rather than movement.

            Anyways, I’m done chatting about it. The ignorance is getting thick as sh!t lately, and I’m bored of knowitalls who can’t supply a good debate when its there to see in black and white.
            Well, unless all the dictionaries change the meanings after the chase started… cuz that’s plausible… right?

          • Hi Seeker: what follows is surely a waste of my time, but in the spirit of Christmas I’ll nevertheless make the attempt.

            “Begin it where warm waters halt [ a place ] and take it in [view it in] the canyon down [ a place ].”

            Okay. Question 1: what is the subject of this sentence? Who is beginning it? Is it you (the reader)? If so, I’m on board so far.

            Question 2: What is “it”? If you think it’s “your quest” or “your journey” or something similar, then good.

            Now, if the poem said this:

            “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in.”

            then I would be in 100% agreement with you. But the sentence doesn’t end there, does it? It continues, and does so in a way that the context can no longer support the idea that you are to “admire the view” or “absorb what you see” or something similar. No, the very next words are an article (the) followed by a noun (canyon) and then a preposition (down). If Forrest intended to add some specificity to what it is you are supposed to be absorbing as you “take it in,” then a colon is crucial:

            “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in: the canyon down.”

            If that colon was present, your interpretation would not only be acceptable, it would be the only one possible. But that colon is not there, which changes the entire meaning of the sentence. It’s why I used the example of “Let’s eat Grandma.” Sometimes punctuation makes a huge difference in how something is read.

            Forrest may not be an expert on comma usage, but to read “take it in” the way you want to, that colon simply has got to be there. Without it, the sentence would be very misleading (the opposite of straightforward). Forrest is never that sloppy with TTOTC (which he claims he wrote in about six weeks), so why would he make such a crucial error in a poem that he says he worked on for 15 years?

            Anyone else still reading along, please help me out here. English majors, teachers, technical writers: please chime in with your opinions. Surely I’m not the only one struggling to find an acceptable way to read this sentence as Seeker does.

          • Zaphod,

            I think Seeker’s view has merit. Your explanation of that line is correct, there is no colon so it shouldn’t be taken as ‘take in the view’ if the sentence would end at canyon down but it doesn’t.

            The full sentence starts with -Begin it- and ends at -too far to walk- . The clause (Not far) is the only one separated by commas in that sentence, meaning that the description given for a *distance* between WWH and CD is NOT FAR but too far to walk.

            If you are looking at those two locations on a map, and you decide that CD is too far to walk from WWH and you rather drive that distance, then there is no ‘take in’ the view. On the other hand, if you believe that while standing at WWH you can see the CD and decide that the length of it is too far to walk, then you had to ‘take in the view’ to make that decision.

            My point is that the last part of the full sentence ‘not far, but too far to walk’ does add the concept of -take in the view- maybe more if you are botg than looking at maps. So it goes back to the dilema of walking all the clues or driving between some of them.

          • Zap,
            You read it and understood it as it was intended.
            You will not change Seekers mind.
            The view is good for him.

      • Hi Afana –

        You don’t need to subscribe to The it All In. Let me try to explain another way of understanding.

        In my view Stanza 2 doesn’t not tell me to move. Rather the movement of the water is described.

        From where warm waters halt they continue down the canyon to where they put in below the home of Brown.

        The next direction for me is From There it’s no place for the meek. From the starting place. I haven’t yet moved even though the waters are always moving.

        Behind where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down. From there…

        • Hi Lugnutz, If I understand what you’re saying, You also are standing at WWWH watching the warm waters travel down a canyon to hoB, without taking a step. Is that right? And did you mean to say Behind where warm waters halt?

          • Hi Afana. Just a point for accuracy’s sake. Forrest didn’t say the LGFI couldn’t get past the first 2 clues; he said she couldn’t get closer. In fact, it’s quite possible her biggest problem is that she goes right past the first 2 clues…like others who figured them out but kept going.

            Using Seeker’s interpretation of “take it in” to mean “take in the view”, I have to wonder if she can’t get closer (presumably to the chest) because she’s only “good” at English – she may not understand the more subtle, idiomatic interpretation of “take it in”. So, she goes down the canyon right past the “spot”.

            I guess my point is this: LGFI can’t get closer to the chest than the first 2 clues because she doesn’t have the rich vocabulary of a native English speaker. Much like I have a hard time understanding how “Hast du einen Fogel?” (have you a bird?) could possibly mean “are you crazy?” to a native speaking German.

          • NMC,

            You posted the quote before i read your post… thanks.
            However, I don’t think the language barrier has much to do with it… fenn also sated a boy from his father’s home town couldn’t get closer than the first two clues ..in the same scenarios as Little Indy.
            He also mentioned a town in England {I think} where Churchill did something, maybe a painting or visited. The comment is on Dal’s site in one of the thread where fenn made that comment.

          • Regarding LGII, what if we focus on what Forrest DID say versus what is not said in his response to Jenny’s LGII hypothetical. There are three questions, and Forrest provided three sentences in his response – 1:1?
            ( http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-over-five-years-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/ )

            My point is the LGII CAN, with very limited resources, get as close as the first two clues – and I will go out on a thick limb and say that means she CAN solve the first two clues. This is the significant take-away with LGII, IMO. Each searcher should read it and decide its meaning for themselves. Does “closer” imply a physical relationship to the chest, or an intellectual one with the poem?

            Regarding a searcher’s perspective while attempting to solve various poem clues, there’s this:
            “Stop arm chairing that thing to death and get out in the trees where the “box” is, but before you go, look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions. f”
            ( http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt-its-a-map/ )

            Note the “but before you go” phrase. Again, each searcher must decide for themselves – read, interpret, deduce.

            As in The Chase, so in life.

          • Hi Joe;

            In your bottom quote I noticed that you put “box” in quotation marks, when there are no quotation marks on the original quote – and that is OK. I like the emphasis. Forrest has used “box” several times – (paraphrasing) – Get back in the box – I don’t want to be put in a box – when my tackle box is – and your quote. In many cases, it would be easy to interpret this “box” idea as relating to Indulgence – BUT – could he be referring to a “BOX CANYON” instead? HUMMM??? Just a thought – JDA

          • Joe ~’ Does “closer” imply a physical relationship to the chest, or an intellectual one with the poem?’

            It’s an interesting question. I kinda lean toward the chest. But not entirely.
            I go on the assumption, when fenn talks about clues.. he’s referring to ‘what gets you closer to the chest’.. Example Hint help with the clues [ they don’t get you closer}, but clues get you closer, line of thinking.

            As to the second quote you posted, I think another quote should be added for thought; {posting the answer only}

            Dear Mz. Mary,
            The solve is difficult for many searchers because their minds think the clues are tougher to decrypt than they really are.
            Some say they are trying to think outside the box, as if the solution lies somewhere out there.
            Until now I have resisted telling them to get back in the box where their thoughts are comfortable and flow more easily.
            The blueprint is challenging so the treasure may be located by the one who can best adjust. To illustrate my point go to YouTube – Smarter Every Day. f

            When we think about the idea of what was intended by the use of “box” I start to ponder the use of ‘blueprint’… The simplest idea might be, a blueprint is a design, that is as simple as it gets. A box it a container, something designed to hold things, again, that is as simple as it gets.
            But while thinking about these ATF’s I can’t help to think about all the many comments about; summarizing; If you don’t have the first clue you have nothing, might as well stay home.

            LOL now I’m full circle back to little Indy.. she, or anyone else, can not get closer… The chest, box, design of the blueprint?
            In some aspects it can be all… But my biggest take-away from these comments is more about thinking, than trying. I think the ‘box’ represents the idea the ‘clues’ are contained [ hence contiguous; meaning neighboring or touch, or bordering..designed together. Not different points spread out all over the place with miles between them.

            Summarizing; you’re as close as you can get to your destination { in this case – WWWH.. imo everything you need to see and know, is there} If you leave the box… you leave the poem, line of thinking. And I’m right back to fenn’s comment. If you don’t have wwh nailed down you have nothing, looking for later clues is a folly, line of thing.

            Some may say; the box is 4 points of the poem and meet in the middle idea, or the blaze is square, or you need to be in a box canyon etc etc.
            I simple think we are reading the poem wrong and need to adjust our way we think the poem should be read.. rather than.. how it might be intended. And the most talked about part of the poem [ by fenn ] is nail down the first clue down or stay home… without it you have nothing.

            End of commentary… aka; IMO.

        • JDA, yes I get yours and Seekers view point. No pun intended but, your reply doesn’t appear to me to answer my question about the LGFI.

          • nmc, you’re absolutely right, I miss quoted get past the first 2 clues, instead of get closer. I’ll pay closer attention next time. Sorry.

          • Afane;

            I can imagine your question – How does this small search area theory and the LGFI question work together, without a conflict?

            Here is the LGFI question (shortened) “… Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is?

            Answer: “… The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. …”

            Question – What are the first two clues? – Just for fun, let’s say that clue #1 and #2 are in the first three lines of Stanza #2, and that clue #3 is “Put in below the home of Brown”. Some will agree with this, some not, but let’s use it anyway.

            So the LGFI can find WWWH, a canyon and can travel not far, but too far to walk.”

            How can she walk a distance that is “Too far to walk” if it is within a circle no bigger than 400′

            Maybe NF,BTFTW is not to be taken literally.
            Instead of distance, maybe this refers to the impossibility of following the waters down the canyon??? What if a small stream (Warm Waters) goes underground for a distance. Since it is underground, it is too far away from you to walk. Let’s say that it reappears at a point that is below a spot called hoB – that is within the 400′ circle. Because she is in India, even with a good map or Google Earth she could not figure out where the little stream reappeared from underground.Therefore, she could not “Put in below the hoB.”

            I am not saying that this is THE answer, I am just saying that using this line of thought, the Small Area Search Theory and the LGFI question do not conflict – JMO – JDA

          • JDA, I miss quoted my question above and was corrected by nmc. And with that correction, “get closer” It could fit Seekers theory. I’ll remain open minded to his theory. It’s an interesting view point to ponder further.

        • Seeker, the position of these reply buttons are confusing. Below I apologized for my misquote. I also stated being open minded to your theory, along with a few others jumping on board.

          • Yep saw it.
            My only point, Afana is the poem, or any poem, is meant for interpretation. Straightforward needs something to guide a thought. That’s what I look for in the ATF’s … a constant, that keeps a thought, idea, theory from running a muck.
            I think there is a different way of reading the poem other-than hiking point to point 9 times over. Is this theory correct…? its ok, but obviously the clues need location references to be tested.

          • @Seeker The reply button is a bit borked, but I’m responding to your previous post to me concerning the little boys from Forrest’s dad’s home town and the other fellow from Marakesh (the city Churchill painted). Again, neither would have the English language skills necessary to discern the more subtle meanings of certain words or phrases in the poem (IMO), which is why they too would possibly miss the “take in the view” interpretation of “take it in”.

            Forrest has told us that the words mean exactly what they say, and he’s also told us that we don’t really understand the meanings of many words; like “several”. I find it telling that he used “several” in that example, because even when we’re told what it means, we still can’t agree on a common definition. “More than two, but not many” – tells us we should come up with a number, just not what the number is. Anyway, I’ll stop there.

        • Zaphod, In reply to your post @10:11pm. I don’t like to admit it but, I’m a tenth grade drop out. I struggled through school. I’ve never been up to speed on punctuation, as you can see. To my point, In Mr. Fenns additional story in OUAW about his encounter with Dizzy Dean, Mr. Fenn makes a point at the end of the story how he removed all the commas. Considering that, when your reading his story, do you miss interpret any intended context? not imo. The following is a suggestion to those interested. Listen to Mr. Fenn recite his poem recorded at The Moby Dickens book shop 11-3-2013 @ the 18:20 minute mark. He emphasizes his breaks in rhyme. There is no BREAK AFTER saying ” take it in”

          • Hi Afana — first off, your lack of a formal education beyond 10th grade hasn’t hurt you any. Your writing is fine. The comma-less Dizzy Dean Scrapbook, as you imply, is still perfectly readable without them and without confusion. None of the commas were critical (unlike “Let’s eat Grandma!”).

            You also bring up a good point about another avenue of information available to us: Forrest reading his own poem. Just as Forrest doesn’t pronounce “tarry” so that it rhymes with “sorry,” the inflection of his voice doesn’t rise, followed by a pause, when he says “And take it in” — he keeps plowing right along until he gets to the word “down.”

            Now, I’ll play Devil’s Advocate here and say, “Well, of course! If he read either of those things as he really intends them to be understood, it would give away too much!” But searchers who want to believe that have to simultaneously downplay his comments about not wanting to mislead. I don’t know how reciting the poem incorrectly could be interpreted as anything other than deceptive.

          • Zaphod, Thanks for your reply. I think we all need to take a slow ride on his train while picking ripe bananas.

          • PS, I forgot to include the most important comment, No deception on his part. I trust Mr. Fenn completely.

          • Hi Afana: agreed (re: no deception). Clearly his poem is hard enough to solve without throwing red herrings into the mix.

  13. Afana, I would agree with your analysis response. Watch Raiders of the …series films. It’s like that type of search. IMO. But not quite as elaborate. I like the Wyoming and New Mexico connections only. Keep it real out there.

    • That’s great. Shaun.
      Only, Indiana Jones, Lora Croft, Ben gates all found new unkown clues at each point, that took them on… Is that the premise of; ‘It’s like that type of search’?
      So how many clues could there be?

    • Mr. Webb-
      I generally agree with your comment above, however I would disagree on the complexity of the clues. IMO Most searchers take the poem at face value and try to find geological features which “fit” the poem. Most don’t spend any time researching the meaning or derivation of the words used. For instance; why does the poem say “the end is EVER drawing nigh”? Why couldn’t we just say “the end is drawing nigh”? Most clues are 3-4 degrees removed from their true meaning. IMO


      • 1f,
        IMO, that line is telling you to always continue taking the draw to your left. If you continue ahead or to the right, you may end up at no place for the meek & water high. If you take out the word ever that changes the directions in my opinion.

        • The left bank of moving water is always ‘going with the flow of the water’ If your heading down stream [ with the flow ] left is your left hand side.
          “Drawing” in this case means pulling towards or the flow direction.
          “Ever” means always.
          The poem stated ‘up’ your creek. So to continually staying on the left side of the flow of the water… going up a creek, you need to stay on ‘your right hand side’… If you want to stay on the ‘left bank side of the creek.’

          • All depend on how you read; “There’ll be no paddle up your creek.”
            Some have suggested there is no need to be in water [no paddle{ing}], you simple walk the bank or follow the creek.
            SO, “up’ your creek” [the correct creek] would mean walk up, against the flow of the water. No paddling required to go against the current, idea.

            You can see the confusion in each process and interpretation.
            Which side of the creek is left normally.
            Which way to walk.. with or against the flow.
            Is left only the left bank as it should be, or your left side in the direction you are walking.. no matter what side of the creek is considered left.

            LOL there are a few options to think about.

          • IMO, Birdie has correctly interpreted and deduced the “no paddle” line in the poem.

            Just before the poem in TTOTC, Forrest tells us if we precisely follow the nine clues in the poem, we will be led to the end of his rainbow and the treasure. Seeker is, of course, correct in that it depends on how you read (interpret) it but, too, it’s critical to derive the appropriate deduction from each interpretation – that is, each clue is minimally a two-step process, IMO.

            – In the no-paddle line, what impact does verb tense have on our interpretation of this and surrounding phrases?
            – Is logic important in determining the “consecutive order” of the clues?
            – What has the poem instructed before this point, and what are following instructions?
            – If we follow the poem precisely, does it instruct us to walk up the no-paddle creek, or does it suggest something else?
            – For each instruction in the poem, how do we perceive performing the instruction – virtually, or BOTG?

            Just wondering and wandering…

          • Joe,
            The other thing to keep in mind is the prior lines…
            NPFTM, The end is ever [always?] drawing nigh.

            Is TBNPUYC, referring to something other than a track to follow?.. Sure we can pick out lefts and rights, up or down, close of far etc. We read words such as ‘place’ ‘creek’ ‘from there’ ‘then end’ etc… But it seems the full stanza might be explaining an entire area, rather than, movement in the area.. Line of thinking.

            Do we really need to move through the area, or simply see it as it is explained to know we are in the right area?
            For example only; Looking at the grand canyon of YSNP.. its roaring falls, steep sides, no real capable travel by path or water… except from the rim of the canyon. This type of description in stand 3 depicts what is seen very well… Might it be that the prior stanza {2} explains we don’t need to go into the canyon, just figure out what and how PIBHOB refers to as a point we need to know of?

            A quick read might be. Begin at the upper falls, view the canyon down, Not far to see, but no need to walk, find hoB. Is this no place for the meek [the canyon itself] all being depicted as HLnWH.
            This would give us only two place to be physically at: WWH, and hoB.. and hopefully where the blaze is located.
            I just have to wonder why we think we need 9 points to be stomped out? Because that seems to be the trend everyone is doing.. we tend to force all those lefts, rights, ups, down into a solve when they may not be needed at all.

            Just rambling and rumbling…

          • Seeker,
            You asked, Do we really need to move through the area, or simply see it as it is explained to know we are in the right area?
            In my solve once you PIBTHOB, then you will see what’s NPFTM, then you get to nigh, The blaze isn’t far behind. At the blaze, after you look quickly down you will see his art that he left for all to see. Game over!

          • Joe,
            Sure we can read the poem as point to point, everyone here does just that. At least at first. The main reason why could be right at the start.. not the poem.. the intro to the poem in the book.
            “Follow” and “lead” is automatically thought of as a physical travel even before we read the poem.
            So when the poem is read, that is how all see it… point to point. Now we are also told there are 9 clues.. again.. now we think the must be 9 points to travel to.
            Follow means; go along (a route or path). Right?
            But it also means;
            be a logical consequence. pay close attention to (something). undertake or carry out (a course of action or *study*.
            ~ think and analyze.

            Lead; *show* the way to a destination by going in front of or beside them.
            That is what the poem seems to be about right?
            Guide, steer, influence etc. [an *understanding* of what is done] ~ observe and plan

            Sure, lead can mean pulling a dog by a leash or making everyone stomp all over the RM’s

            The point?
            Did we understand the intro correctly, or simply jump to the first commonly thought conclusion that this is just like every other treasure hunt, Be like Indian Jone, or Lara Croft.. run a muck all over the RM’s finding clues/points along the way.

            A visual idea can simply be ‘explained’ this way; The need to be at WWH, ya cant skip it. At WWH you are told “hoB” is not far to see, but don’t go there. “From there” hoB… and from the location of WWH {in between them} is NPFTM.
            Drawing is the idea that everything is working from hoB back to WWH ‘shown’ in the poem { in theory; NPFTM is ‘the canyon down }.

            The difference between a stomping method vs. an observational method start at the intro sentence in the book.
            Now, the idea of the poem reads “take it in” as that observation vantage point at WWWH… rather than ‘go into’ said canyon, or go to hoB etc.

            IMO… an illusion was implanted in the sentence in the book… because we read that sentences as if we were watching: Raiders, National treasures, Or checking out Angelina Jolie in a tight body suit.
            Personally, I like Alicia Vikander better. Umm, err, I mean, the character version of the movie.

            Where was I? oh! right.
            Stomping vs. “thinking, analyzing, planing, and observing”.. at least that’s the way I *imagine* it could be.

          • Seeker,

            I see you are stuck with the idea to view, I would say yes, but one can view just by using a map. I personally think that from wwh one is moving away from there, taking the canyon down going NFBTFTW, which is distance away from wwh and putting in bhoB and then one heads towards NPFTM which is still moving farther awa from wwh.

            The point being that the clues are moving further away from the start, which puts the chest quite a distance from wwh. IMO the distance doesn’t stop until the chest is retrieved.

            Yours maybe a good theory, but if your going to confine the search to a small area sounds like an Easter egg hunt. I don’t think F ever intended to put things so close as that would make finding the chest too easy. However one can follow all of the clues on a map and not do botg until there is the retrieval.

            Just a theory.

          • Stuck?.. Nope.
            Just analyzing the possibilities… Unless your idea is ‘to keep it simple.’

            Q~ Forrest, you talk about the clues being difficult to solve (opposite being easy) yet that the solutions are simple (opposite being complex). Yet when I read the stories of other searchers, I often think that their solutions to the clues tend to be either easy solutions or made out to be very complex and over-thought. Are there any suggestions you would give in approaching the clues and solving them? ~Craig
            A~Craig, there is no substitute for thinking and planning and observing and looking at maps, unless it’s the desire to keep it simple.f

            Lets not forget; GE

            Q~ Numerous searchers are convinced they know where the treasure is, and are close-minded to alternate options. Only one, if even one, of course, can be correct. It seems a bit sad for seemingly so many to be entrenched on a wrong path, even if treasures of a different type can be found there as well. From your perspective, what do you feel causes such blindness or stubbornness?
            A ~ Stubbornness is sometimes confused with tenacity. There are many avid searchers looking for the treasure who are not blinded by its value. After I hid the treasure I never went back to that spot, and now I can’t.

            “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

            “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

            You said: I don’t think F ever intended to put things so close as that would make finding the chest too easy.

            It wouldn’t be found easy when hidden so no one will stumble on it… right? Not even a searcher at WWH and goes looking some place else, as you said,.. ‘The point being that the clues are moving further away from the start, which puts the chest quite a distance from wwh.’
            IMO, that is the illusion we all have from the intro sentences to the poem, and beyond. It’s a “desire to keep it simple” KiSS, and not think about the “WhatIF’s”

            Do you really think I have only thought of the challenge as, viewing only? LOL I have thought of tons of stomping theories over the years. Heck I have had theories in YS, WYS CO, not many in NM, but some, and most were of stomping point to point. I have theories of the Glacial period, theories of small scale, and theories that cover the entire idea of the continental divide from Canada down… a couple of those theories are posted on this site for conversational purpose.
            But here’s the difference in what I’m attempting now to then. I’m utilizing the ATF’s [8 years of them] to judge a theory on its possibilities… a check and balance, and attempting to read the poem as fenn may have intended, rather than being stuck on one method of read it.

            That method has been tested by hundreds of thousands and failed each time. The most logical assumption is we create an illusion of how we hope and think it should all pan out.. and we’re reading it all wrong.
            To put it bluntly; we’re all stupid and can’t read a map… even on site with clues starring us in the face.

            ” … I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

            What don’t we understand?
            You can approach it any way ya like. I attempting to understand how all [on site, with clues indicated] can’t see what is right in front of them. My conclusion, thus far is, They are not reading the poem as intended, only has they hope it should be.
            There are some pretty smart and clever folks attempting this.. I highly doubt the failure of all those searches [ in the correct location ] is about a wrong turn.

            My biggest problem is; I have no idea what the first clue represents. But at least I’m honest about it, and not stuck on the idea of making excuse on the way home, that my wwwh is correct, I just screwed up on this or that farther down the line… only to rinse and repeat each and every time.

    • Hi FMC: that’s assuming that Forrest continues his annual tradition with Jenny. Has Forrest/Jenny already confirmed that he will?

      • Depends on if the porcupine sees its shadow.

        We either get 6 questions, or 6 more weeks of winter.

    • That’s 2 funny (54 days)… guess i’m not the only one looking down the road for the next signpost. I sure hope there isn’t that long of a delay, cabin fever has already arrived!

      • mia;

        Every year in February, I think February 4th or 5th – or there abouts – Forrest answers 6 questions asked by Jenny Kyle on her website. I do believe that if you count the days from Dec 12 – 54 days, you arrive at February 4th. – So, “Only 54 days until the highlight of the Winter (Chase-related) season.”

        A couple of questions that Jenny usually asks relate to has anyone been closer to Indulgence than 200′ or has anyone solved more clues than the first two (or 4). Hope this helps – JDA

        • JDA- “Hope this helps”.
          It will if f wood actually answer those questions, lol.

          For the record: my “2” = February (among other things:)

  14. You decide…
    Julius Brighton 5/24/2015
    “There have been a few people within five hundred feet. I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and the fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.”
    There could be more…or less, laying on the cutting room floor…

  15. During the Moby Dickens book signing interview, a female asked F the question “If you follow the poem precisely, will you find yourself switching back?” Fenn responds “If you follow the poem precisely, will I what?” The female then says “Will you find yourself switching back, making a loop.” Fenn then says “This gal’s dangerous. Would I find myself switching back? I think I can say no to that without giving away too much of a clue.”

    So, I have been thinking about that question and answer. It seems to me that F struggled to answer that honestly, correctly, and yet not give away any additional information. He seemed to have an issue with the phrase “switching back” until she clarified it and said “making a loop”. What if there is some type of switching back that does not involve making a loop?

    For example, my solution requires multiple meanings to words that identify the path. Down means down in elevation AND south. Up means up in elevation AND north. Nigh means near AND left. Just means only AND right (directionally). So if you are going down south into a canyon, then go up your creek, maybe the creek curves back around so that you actually walk northward up the creek. That could also be why some people have figured out the first 2 clues and walked right by the chest, if they were still in the canyon but didn’t turn left at the correct creek which would have taken them northbound toward the treasure. The creek could actually run parallel on the left of the canyon and people walked right by the chest because it was in the creek beside the canyon.

    I hope this makes sense. Any thoughts?

    • This next part does not fit my search area, but, what if – when several have been in the correct canyon, those people are 500′ from the treasure when they are walking past the treasure. Then, the few who have gotten within 200′ actually went up the correct creek, but didn’t go up the northbound Y’s or went up the wrong fork of the Y’s so they were then 200 feet from the treasure. I also think “to cease” means “2 C’s” or 200 feet, so what if the few actually went up the correct creek, found the blaze, but didn’t walk south 200′ to look for the treasure there because they were looking around the blaze? If people emailed him and described the blaze, Forrest would know they were about 200 feet from the treasure. Maybe so close, but yet so far…

      • I believe when Forrest answered the question he was thinking about the path you would take to retrieve the treasure, not necessarily the path you would take by physically following all 9 clues. “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” I think

    • JBL-

      You are quite correct. IMO
      Have Dal send me your email and I’ll give you the answer.

      1f Billy

    • JBL;

      One possible explanation: What if a trail that leads from the parking place – going to a “place where he finds WWWH and the rest of the clues? The trail. has “Switch Backs”, but Forrest has not yet gotten to the area where the nine clues are. – Just a possibillity – JDA

      • That’s a possibility. F may have been thinking about the phrase “if you follow the clues precisely” in order to confirm in his mind that the answer of no could be given, when addressing if one would be switching back.

        • That exchange with the woman asking about switching back was similar to his response he gave when someone asked him what Dorothy (of collected works bookstore) thought of him shopping for books at Boarders………the look on his face, was similar to that of a deer’s in the headlights.

          I’ll take anyones’ bet that he has never been to a boarders book store …ever. Where’s my deputy…we’ll give him a lie detector test!


          • I definitely think Border’s is definitely a hint since Forrest added an apostrophe where there shouldn’t be one. It fits my solution as well, so I like it. 🙂

            If you give F a lie detector test, it might take a while, because we all know that he needs to tell the WHOLE truth.

    • I think Fenn never heard or answered the loop.
      He had a tough time hearing most q’s at Moby.
      If you had a couple jets next to your ears for 20 years you would be saying “what?” a lot.

      Inconclusive at best.

    • let us put his “struggle” a different way: I have never been on a trail that did not have switch backs. (I only hike in the mountains) I have never been on a road (in the mountains) that did not have a switch back.

      I have never been on a switch back road or trail that made a loop, mainly because I have never driven down into an open pit mine or crater.

      so the only thing one can derive from the question or even the answer is the TC is not in an open pit mine… (or crater) if one wanted to stretch the line of thought as far as possible.

      and for the love of God, please look for a piece of literature or story or poem or book or dictionary even a single line of hand written notes (old, new or even middle english) in the past two hundred or two thousand years where someone wrote the word “nigh” and meant it as “left”… (besides some very mislead searchers) if one were so inclined to think about direction.

      • Merriam-Webster dictionary on the internet gives a definition of nigh as “being on the left”. You don’t need to agree with my interpretation, but you are wrong about there not being any definition of nigh that means left. JMO

        • I think it’s very unlikely that ‘nigh’ in the poem has anything to do with the direction ‘left.’

          ‘Nigh’ means near. The one context where ‘left’ ever enters into it is in the two-word phrase ‘nigh side’ or ‘near side’, and *only* in the context of a horse or wagon team.

          When you’re at the ‘near side’ of your horse, you do happen to be on *its* left side (but the horse is on *your* right hand side).

          If you’re a righty in the batter’s box, the ‘nigh side’ of home plate (the side you’re standing near) is the left side of the plate. If you’re a lefty, though, the ‘nigh side’ of home plate is the right side of the plate.

          The ‘nigh side’ of a creek is the side you happen to be on at the moment. Could be the left bank or the right bank of that creek.

          I’m not out to persuade or dissuade, just trying to help buyers know what it is they’re buying.

          • JA Kraven I think that the word nigh is just saying that the tc is on the left end or left side of in the wood

          • Frank;

            You are making a statement of fact when you say
            “nigh means left **** frank” – and in-fact, this may NOT be a fact. It is YOUR opinion – Just Sayin’ – JDA

          • Could be, frank.

            A surprising (to me) number of searchers seem to agree on scratching out ‘nigh’ and subbing in ‘left’ in its place.

            But having made the substitution, very few then seem to agree on what “the end is ever drawing *left* ” means.

            Which I completely understand – it’s a pretty clunky wording.

            And which, rather than clarifying, instead compounds the complexity of the line.

            For an example of how actual Fenn wordplay *doesn’t* feel like synonymese cobbled together with duct tape, see the classic “and with the fish he took my picture.”


          • omg JDA lay of of that crap – if I don’t use imo let dal tell me it not you place to tell me

          • Shoot… I just took three nighs thinking it would be the same as taking a right. Should I get my stomach pumped or what?
            As a side note… I have seen nigh explained as a Westerly direction if facing North….

          • JDA,
            Nigh means left side… Far means right side.
            Does it matter if the word ‘side’ is used… left is left, right is right… that’s a fact.
            Doesn’t side need context, not the right or left.
            Example; side of; a car, horse, buggy, dog -cat -mouse…
            Nigh means left. A fact by any dictionary that has all the word’s meanings and usages.
            near; approaching: Evening is nigh. short or direct: to take the nighest route. (of an animal or vehicle) being on the left side: to be astride the nigh horse.

            Did you know nigh means “short” or “direct”
            That’s a “scant” piece of knowledge, wouldn’t you say?

          • Frank;

            Sorry if you take offense. Dal can not watch every thing that is posted. When someone makes an opinion appear as fact, a newbie will take it as fact.
            By not taking the time to type “IMO” you may very well lead someone down a false trail. If this is too much trouble – to abide by the rules, and to help your fellow searchers – what can I say? JMO – JDA

          • Seeker;

            Nope – that is a new one for me – nigh means “short” or “direct”. I will have to add that one to my FENNictionary. 🙂 JDA

          • ** ** ** ken – “As a side note… I have seen nigh explained as a Westerly direction if facing North….” ** ** **

            That’s just an artifact of cut’n’paste in online dictionaries, ken.

            The source citation reads like this:

            NIGH – being on the LEFT* side; “the near or nigh horse is the one on the left”; “the animal’s left side is its near or nigh side”

            *(and by LEFT we mean – being or located on or directed toward the side of the body to the west when facing north.)

            Then sites like vocabulary.com cut’n’paste the whole thing together so it looks like the *clarification* of what LEFT is, is part of the definition of that usage of NIGH.

            (And even the source citation there obscures the context limitations – WHY and WHEN the near side happens to be the left side.)


          • yeah J Kraven… that’s my opinion as well. Just tossed it in there for some more laughs. I just nod and shake my head at some of this stuff…. I’m easily entertained. I’m nigh handed… you?

          • If ya want to take “nigh” a step further, “Drawing” means pulling towards, “Nigh” means approaching.
            Are the two words not similar in their usage.

            The commonality of word’s meanings and usages in the poem seem to apply to many of them, that many readers would never think about.
            Not unlike Nigh -short can relate to Scant -small.
            The hard part is stating it in a way that those meanings flow together in the way the writer intended, and still be honest in their usage of the meanings.
            ~ I looked up words and definition of words, changed them and rebooted… it came out exactly like I wanted ~

          • ** ** ** ken – “I just nod and shake my head at some of this stuff…. I’m easily entertained. I’m nigh handed… you?” ** ** **

            Me, no – I’ve always swung far outside. Near-sighted pitchers loved to see me step to the plate. I mean nigh-sided pitchers.

            (Ever notice that, from the batter’s box, second base is “not far, but too far to walk”?)


          • you always want to fix things with im sorry – im getting tired of you playing cop – that’s one of the reasons why I want to stop commenting – im tired of your crap

          • I just read the following on Wikipidia (not the most trustworthy website, but) – meek is defined as righteous. as in (“The meek, or righteous, will inherit the earth.”) So, no place for the meek could be no place for those on the right (as well as other definitions of meek) AND then the end is ever drawing nigh (near and left). No one needs to try to convince me that nigh doesn’t mean left and I am not trying to convince anyone that meek and nigh mean right and left respectively. I am just throwing ideas out there. And, of course, both the common AND alternative definitons of the words in the poem fit my solution. Although, I remain treasureless. 🙂

          • JBL

            How can a definition of a word be alternative-?- regardless if the definition commonly/often used or not?

            Doesn’t alternative related to a word or wording; for example; what’s up vs. sup?
            Or in the north when someone says something you didn’t understand or hear correctly, and you may reply; say what? where in the south it’s; do what? [ sounds more like Dewhaat?] vs. would you repeat that? … the last example might be more slang than actual, but ya git the gist…

            I don’t understand how a definition usage can be an alternative usage. All words have different definitions and usages
            a low temperature
            an attitude
            an emotion or unemotional
            medical; illness
            Cold can mean; completely

            I mean the line in the poem “your effort will be worth the cold” could be interpreted as… your determination will be rewarded from all your cold attempts.. poetically. Or cold meaning the coolness of metal to the touch [under normal conditions].. the chest and its goodies.

            The use of cold is correct by the word’s definitions.. the context of how cold is understood, is what is important… right?

      • I do agree with you that the most probable interpretation of F’s hesitancy was because navigating mountains require navigating switchbacks.

      • Writis,
        As JBL said it’s a definition of the word.
        Fenn stated he looked up words meanings and the poem came out the way he wanted it.
        Besides, this is a poem is not a conventional poem… It was created for a challenge of deciphering clues. The idea is to; try and simplify the clues… Not that the clues are simple.

        For example. Wood means a product or bi-product of a plant… Not the plant itself. .. wood flooring, wood siding, a blank of wood, something of wood.
        Woods means a forest or group of wooden plant life.

        Wood, be definition also means petrified wood. Which is fossilized wood or wood plant, and now stone.

        Just saying….

        • Seeker;

          One might also look up the various meanings of Brave – “If you are BRAVE and in the wood…” One might find something useful here – JDA

          • Every word in the poem has different usages of each word.
            The simple basics are;
            verb vs. adjective vs. noun etc.
            Then we can add, physical feelings ; such as warm meaning comfortable /or touch.
            We can even use the meanings of medical, legal or emotion… “comfortable feeling” can be an emotion.
            For example: ” I ” means self. Do we just stop there-?- easy peasy? “I” means “knowledge” of self, which can relate to humans or being human… hence knowledge of us as a species.
            “I” means the same, only its usage has changed… and still correct to its definition[s]

            So, I’ll use ken’s possible idea of the poem is a riddle through and through. I in stanza 1 might not be fenn himself, but knowledge of another ‘human’ before him. That person or people went alone in there with their/his/her possessions, their treasures [ because treasures can mean possession important to that person, but of no real value to others].. so the idea is the poem is narrated, telling of humans going alone [ alone can mean “first” ] the first into somewhere. The USA?

            Later in the poem ” i ” ‘fenn’ is leaving ‘a trove’ [ that is a treasure as well, but means something different as well, it is of no ownership and of great value to most ].

            Depending on which usage of words fenn decided on… the words have an impact of how the poem should be read as intended. Nigh can be near or left side, OR in “a poem”, it’s common and allowed that both usages can be implied.

            We just need to ‘think the right thoughts”
            So I agree with ken to a point, that the entire idea of the poem is a riddle… because we need to figure out the usages of the words fenn used… to figure out what the poem is relaying.

            Multiple Meanings and word usages…
            We are told to try and simplify the clues… hence; the poem is difficult but not impossible.

          • riddle….. a board with a set of pins, set zigzag between which wire is drawn to straighten it.
            riddle….. speak ambiguously or enigmatically.
            riddle….. a verbal puzzle, mystery or other problem of an intellectual nature.

          • JDA, if one wants to be arbitrary with capitalization, one
            might look up the meanings of bRaVe. And if you want to
            respond with “bRaVo!”, please don’t bother. I don’t need
            all the strokes one might want to “gift me with”. Hee hee!
            Oh . . . this messAge is part of my oPiNiOn.

        • ** ** ** Seeker writ – “Writis, As JBL said it’s a definition of the word. Fenn stated he looked up words meanings and the poem came out the way he wanted it.” ** ** **

          Wrongus, Seek’, ‘left’ is *not* a definition of the word ‘nigh’ – it just ain’t so. See above response to JBL (it’s a specialized usage of the adjective ‘nigh’).

          Flip the dictionary around, from the act of us deciphering the poem to the original act of ff creating the poem.

          Chase-Master wants to leave a ‘left direction’ indicator in the poem to be deciphered by searchers. So he looks up ‘left (direction)’ in his Funk’n Wagnalls.

          ‘Nigh’ is not a definition of the word ‘left.’

          Maybe why some searchers figured the first couple clues but then ‘left’ the poem?


          [as an aside – nothing to do with ‘nigh’, but on the topic of fenn and left and right, and just for grins, search ‘Coriolis’ on tarryscant. ‘Splain *that* one.]

          • Your kidding right, Jak?
            Every dictionary tool I have read refers to one of Nigh’s usage as being the left side. Left is left… The context of “side” is needed to determined left.

            Example; the left side of a creek it the left side [bank] going with the flow of water. But is one is walking the left side of the bank and with the flow of the water [ down stream ] the creek is on the right side of them. left is left, side needs context. BUT this is also a poem created for the sole purpose of presenting “clues” for deciphering. In which case Left can mean West, if for example looking at a map… Nigh can be interpreted as west… no rules broken.

            I showed a definition to JDA above.. Nigh to be “short” in one usage of the word… are ya going to say the dictionary got it wrong? But like all word’s meanings and usages… there needs to be context to what is intended.
            Is that not what we are trying to do? decipher the intent of the words fenn chose to use?

            Every word was deliberate?

          • I cant take it anymore…..IMO..you didn’t check the right dictionary..come on quit messin around..

            Nigh means bathing or washing..

            ever heard of anyone drawing a bath?
            If I cant get you to believe me, you’ll never find it.
            Remember “river bathing is best”?

            OK let’s move on

            Merry Christmas

            1f Billy

          • And I thought that the line has nothing to do with ‘nigh’ since the end is severed. I thought that the end place’s name ends with “n” then “I” second to last, then “g” third to last. With the “h” being severed, (and used in the next line).
            The end I sever drawing nig/h.
            Maybe the severed “h’ needs to be moved to the left of the next line…?
            HT (here) ‘ll be (no “p” add “le” up), nah, that sounds like letter values, that can’t be right…

          • No no no,
            You guys are all wrong.
            Nigh means North Intrastate Gallatin Highway.
            You have to corrupt the dictionary meanings and use your imagination.
            You also will have to solve the 4 clues before to get to this point.
            This is a fact in my mind! LOL

          • Hey-O, Seek’ –

            SEEK – Your kidding right, Jak?

            JK – Frequently, yes. But I was learned by nuns as a kid, and still know how to read a dictionary.

            SEEK – Every dictionary tool I have read refers to one of Nigh’s usage as being the left side.

            JK – Yes, but WHY and WHEN? Context. Because in a right-hand dominant world you got NEAR a horse from its left side to throw a saddle on it, or throw your right leg over it. NIGH still *means* near, but what you’re near in that particular context happens to be the left side of the animal.

            SEEK – Example; the left side of a creek is the left side [bank] going with the flow of water. . .

            JK – Exactly. The NIGH side of a creek is the side you happen to be on, which could be the right bank OR the left bank. NIGH carries no left/right directional weight there.

            SEEK – . . . a poem created for the sole purpose of “clues” for deciphering. . . Left can mean West . . . looking at a map… NIGH can be interpreted as west… no rules broken.

            JK – Well, NIGH=WEST=credulity strained to breaking point.

            SEEK – But like all word’s meanings and usages… there needs to be context to what is intended. Is that not what we are trying to do? decipher the intent of the words fenn chose to use?

            JK – YEP. Which is exactly – EXACTLY – what I did with NIGH when I considered it carefully back when. And here today (and a couple-few times before here on HoD) I showed my work, and illustrated same with numerous examples. And shared *my own* conclusion that “it is very unlikely that NIGH in the poem was intended to have anything to do with the direction LEFT.”

            You/we can collect, consider, and sift all possible meanings of all the words in the poem. But having done so, or while doing so, I also have to select and discard to make progress.

            ” . . . it is risky to discount any of them [words in the poem]” doesn’t mean that it’s risky to discount *any of the meanings* of those words.

            From the outside looking in (and I know this is presumptuous), YOU seem to be insisting (or at least suggesting) that ff might somehow have made the poem to work for *all* possible meanings of NIGH simultaneously. I discount the likelihood of that. Possibly (probably?) due to laziness.

            As I’ve said, I’m not out to dissuade or persuade, I’m just sharing my considered opinion.

            I’m surprised that so many take NIGH=LEFT *in the poem* uncritically, as if it’s a self-obvious given. But I’m not bothered by it.


          • Jak ~ ‘The NIGH side of a creek is the side you happen to be on, which could be the right bank OR the left bank. NIGH carries no left/right directional weight there.’
            Nope… the left bank is ‘always’ on the left going with the flow of the water. Not unlike sitting in a car, the left side is always on your left facing the from windshield.. be it if you sit on the left or right side seat makes no difference. Even if you sit facing the back window, it doen’t change the left side of the car… that is now ‘your right hand side.

            You said left is not a definition of the word… I can’t tell if your saying that with a straight face ore not. However, I posted one dictionary say it is… PD posted another dictionary. All I can suggest is run, don’t walk.. leave the nuns in your rear view mirror.
            Also, a right hand dominated world has nothing to do with meanings of words. If tat was remotely true… stock-car drivers have it all wrong.

            You said; ‘ Well, NIGH=WEST=credulity strained to breaking point.’
            Sure… but while we look at maps, as suggested, and attempt to make heads or tails of directions using a map’s NSEW … left is always left. there’s your context. But I wouldn’t call that to its ‘breaking point’ It’s an attempt to understand how we follow the clues on a ‘map’

            My example would be the same as a Q&A; admire; if we twist it a bit we can make it work; admires means hold in high regards, respect… right? Or does admire only mean to ‘look at with pleasure’

            You implied fenn use ALL possible meanings of Nigh.. No use, but in a poem more than one meaning of the word can be used. Nigh is a good example; The end is ever drawing near and/or the end is ever drawing left. So for example; following the a creek… you stay on the left bank walking to it end that is near to you, line of thinking… if you chose the right side bank… the creek could spit and you go the wrong way… it all depends on where you are at and the creek you think you need to follow.
            LOL only you wouldn’t know that if you didn’t understand that the left [nigh] bank of flowing water is “always” with the flow of the water. That never changes no mater which direction you walk.

            Lastly, because I think this is so funny, You said:
            ‘it is risky to discount any of them [words in the poem]” doesn’t mean that it’s risky to discount *any of the meanings* of those words.’

            Of course it does !!.. all words have different meanings and usages, and it all depends on how you could read / interpret the poem.

            So, I ask you or anyone else… show me any words [ in English ] that only has one meaning and usage of that word.
            I would think “stop” would be an easy one, right? But stop means to pick up passengers. A bus, train… ‘stop’… is a location. I can still go to a stop and not get on a bus or train.. the word stop in this context has nothing to do with blockage, or standing still… it is known as a location BY it’s definition.
            Not unlike halt can be a temporary change in movement or direction BY it’s definition.

            I can come close to one definition of a word, that words would be ‘trove’.. however, there are two definitions… one is a store of valuables. The other is store of hidden items of value. Both definition are of something of value, only, one is ‘found hidden’ by it’s definition. Giving that definition .. no ownership.
            Not unlike treasure vs. trove.. treasures are possessions important to who owns them, and may not have any value to others.. “Hidden treasure” is a trove [ of value ]… Because, of the act of hiding it and found by another.

            Believe what ya like, But I found that comment funny as can be;
            ‘it is risky to discount any of them [words in the poem]” doesn’t mean that it’s risky to discount *any of the meanings* of those words.’

          • SEEK – Nope… the left bank is ‘always’ on the left going with the flow of the water.

            JK – That’s exactly what I said. The LEFT bank and RIGHT bank of a creek/stream/river are determined by facing downstream. The NIGH side and FAR side of the creek/stream/river depend on which bank you’re standing on at the moment.

            SEEK – . . . also, a right-hand dominated world has nothing to do with meanings of words.

            JK – C’mon, you really think that right-hand dominance had nothing to do with placing the steering board (starboard) where it was on ships (before there were centered rudders)?

            That Dexter (strong) and Sinister (self-evident) refer to ‘right’ and ‘left’ in heraldry . . . just because?

            That the ‘right’ in ‘right-handed’ isn’t related to the meaning of ‘right’ as ‘correct’?

            That the side of a horse or team you worked from or led from (the near side) is the left side of the animal was decided by a coin toss?
            This link isn’t definitive, but it does neatly illustrate one of the relationships between “left” and “nigh”. (Warning – includes some right-handed-dominance content):


            SEEK – LOL

            JK – Good point. In our house we use OME (“Ow, my eye!”)

            SEEK – all words have different meanings and usages, and it all depends on how you could read / interpret the poem.… show me any words [ in English ] that only has one meaning and usage of that word.

            JK – Self-evident. We couldn’t be having this discussion at all if we weren’t all well-aware that “words have different meanings and usages.”
            (just for grins, *Mom* and *Dad* come pretty close; and most Moms and Dads know ‘*no* means *no*’, no?)

            SEEK – Believe what ya like, But I found that comment funny as can be;
            ‘it is risky to discount any of them [words in the poem]” doesn’t mean that it’s risky to discount *any of the meanings* of those words.’

            JK – My turn to say “gimme a break.” Nobody rates all meanings, or even words, equally. How long do you stand in front of “take it in the canyon DOWN” hemming and hawing . . . “hmmm . . . ‘lower’ or ‘goose feathers’ . . . I dunno . . . .”

            Most people put ‘goose feathers’ in the bargain bin pretty quickly. I mean, if other readings don’t work out for you, you can always go back for it and mark it up again.


          • Classic Faulker

            This is one of the most interesting ideas here ever.

            Interesting because others don’t see that interpretation at all. And yet, they are in the same area.

            Could be the correct area too.

  16. If you are walking counter-clockwise in a circle and say there is a “dot” in the very center of the area created by the circle that we call “the end”–then as we walk that dot is “ever drawing nigh”. Because it’s to our left and remains in the same place as we walk continuously. Just a thought. lol

  17. Since nigh can be west when facing north, I think it’s possible that “ ever drawing nigh” as in forever or always, could mean go west 270* degrees.

    Just food for thought.

    • Kanafire

      You could be right. Another thought I have had is this: One definition of END is boundary or border. One definition of EVER is more than one or several. What if you have to cross several boundaries or borders as you travel along a road or trail to reach the end place? If two ranches abut one another, on a road, this boundary is separated by a cattle guard – “The end is EVER drawing nigh” = .You will have to cross “multiple boundaries that will bring you to the final boundary” (Interp.) – Just a thought – JDA

  18. JDA,
    Could be possible. I never rule anything out completely. I think I have finally figured out how to read the poem, well enough to go BOTG next spring. It will be a fun trip no matter what. It’s been awhile since I’ve been BOTG treasure hunting. If I do find “Indulgence” she’ll rest where it is, minus a trinket for a souvenir. Maybe return FF’s bracelet and see if he’ll play a round of poker for it. LoL.
    I wouldn’t mind making a stop in Kansas if you’re up for it. I’ll buy!
    I hope you are doing well my friend. Will you be headed to your spot in the spring?

    Best regards,

    • Kanafire;

      Would love to meet you and to have a drink or meal. Problem is, I live nowhere near Kansas. I live in Pocatello, Idaho.

      I wish you well in your BotG next spring. Am sure you will have fun regardless the outcome – People with good attitudes warrant good outcomes – JDA

      • JDA,
        Not sure how I came up with Kansas. Kansas or Idaho, doesn’t matter. I’ll let you know well in advance when I’ll be that way and I’ll look you up for sure.


  19. as i sit here the wind is blazing with snow a blizzard i out thought the cold i could take my canoe out of the shop put it on the snow and imagine i was on the water again yep coat and gloves would be necessary no warm water there stay safe out there

  20. What if WWWH was South and lower elevation, and like it says, Waters, as in all waters and what if Home of Brown was Brownsville, Tx , no one says the all the clues are on the map, just the chest could be on the map, and all the clues were points of reference on the compass?

    If you could make all the lines cross at the right spot it will most like likely border on the truth, perhaps a stroke of Architectural Genius, since a lot of info has been put out there, and ff said he knew of no one who has the clues in the proper order and no more than 4….maybe.

    Can I get an AMEN? Follow the star: oh Wise Men of the East. See the Blaze. How was the compass invented? Always poins at the North Star, it always was and is at the same place.

    Look at the BIG PICTURE.


    • Yep, the warm waters of the (North Atlantic Drift) halt at the Gulf of Mexico, find the canyon right below the home of Brown (Brownsville) ‘From there’ follow the Rio Grande away from the Atlantic into the search area and find the ‘ever drawing nigh’, somewhere around the NM-CO border. If you hit the water high, you’ve gone too far but if you understand ‘heavy loads’ that is your location. Just follow the signs to the observation area where you can see the Butte feature (blaze), is open to the public. Marvel gaze at the formation and find where it points to, get off the trail and walk towards that spot. There is a wood hanging bridge going over the side creek that circles the butte shaped like a horseshoe. The place may not exist but that is where the poem takes it.

      • OK guys,
        But how do we get around fenn following the clues “when” he hid the chest? Did he start in the gulf-?- pass through TX, got to the NM – CO border and did it in one afternoon?
        LOL I’ll even skip the second trip altogether…

        While I agree as clue may not be within the shaded area… it can’t be states away… the time span doesn’t add up.

        One of the most sought after question since the beginning of the challenge was; Did fenn follow his own clues or did he take a short cut?
        Over the years he’s implied; the clues need to be followed, there’s no other way to his knowledge. If your missing an ingredient will you have the proper outcome [kinda thinking ya can skip a clue either, because its far away]. And as of late, fenn finally stated “he [i] did followed the clues IN the poem when he hid the chest…”

        How can a clue or clues [ no matter which clue{s} ] be so far away, and done by him in an afternoon – time line?

        **Even if this was meant has a hypothetical, it still doesn’t remotely fit what we have been told.

        • Seeker, maybe that was the part of the poem that was not complete, completed? lol…

          But seriously though, you are right, the same idea could work on a smaller scale.

        • Follow: : to understand the sense or logic of (something, such as a line of thought)
          I don’t quite follow your thinking.

        • Seeker,

          “follow the clues”, in what manner? In his mind, on a map or physically the entire length? I have a strong tendency to think it was in his mind, because he wrote the poem and was familiar with the area and could have himself still take a shortcut when delivering the tc.

          Its just my interpretation, because F never truly said how he followed the clues.

          Just Say’n

          • I was thinking along the same lines. In another ATF, about the places existing when he was younger but the clues didn’t, he made a distinction between clues and the places they signify. This might be more of the same so that while you need to follow the clues as they are laid out in the poem, there might be physical shortcuts once you have confirmed the physical location of each clue.

  21. Seeker, I’m still analyzing your outside of the box theory. And just for fun to boost your theory, look at page 133 of TTOTC. You’ll notice 6 objects, as in 6 stanzas, clustered together with the gold coin in the middle. Also you’ll notice what looks like a face on the map looking down. Have fun with that.

    • Why is it “out of the box” thinking?

      fenn has stated the hints [ call then clues if ya like ] are in the text of the book. I don’t or won’t use the illustrations or pictures themselves, especially when fenn told us; another person / artist did the illustrations… to me that is out of the box.

      I don’t have the book, anyways… so pics and drawings never came to interest while reading the poem… but I did read the book, and seen the those pic and drawings.

      • PS ~ Afana,

        i’m curious.. in your solve / theory, what is it or how do you “observe” and “plan” in regards to a solution of the clues?

        • I do what Forrest has told us to do. Read his poem which originally came out in TTOTC and, I look at maps and GE. I also pay attention to ATF’s. My latest solve is complete, I’m now in standby mode.

      • Seeker, Imo it’s only out of the box because your theory is quite different than most see the progression of clues. It’s an interesting take.

    • Afana,

      Yes there are hints in the book, the problem is to be able to correctly identify them. If you can’t truly find the starting point and don’t understand the poem, one is merely guessing. As Seeker said and I agree with him that images in the book aren’t any real help at all. IMO the hints are written words and not just one word.

      A good example are the mail stamps in the book, they don’t convey any calculations or coordinates and are not IMO ciphers or codes as those methods will not help as F has said, (its the gist of the long statement), yet the statement is still being ignored.

      The images are tied to the stories that are being told, IMO not helpful as hints.

      Just Say’n

      • CharlieM, Why do you think Mr. Fenn felt it important to put out a revised OUAW? imo You said it, “The images are tied to the stories that are being told.

        • Afana,

          I was merely referring to the book TTOTC, no others. As the first book is were F said, there are hints in it. He never said there are hints in OUAW and it’s revision.

  22. I remember seeing a video, where Mr. Fenn was given an award by the city of Santa Fe, for his contribution, to the local economy, the chase having brought so many people there. in the video Mr. Fenn said that his family had, thirty great years in Santa Fe, and that hiding the chest, was his way of giving something back to (the local community).

    • I only watch that video once. I’ll need to look at it again…

      If he did state ‘give back to the community’ A few thoughts pop in my head.
      1. He could have said the same for YS or WYS etc. if they gave him an award. Kinda like, I wanted the chest to get folks out an enjoy what I have all these years growing up, or something like that. A sales pitch if ya will.
      2. There are a lot of ATF’s to suggest NM is green acres.
      Moved there, recover there, business there {mainly dealing with ‘South West’ items and paintings} The RM’s are right there, gave a ‘single’ mom and pop book store his book to sell in his home town. Uses SF as a gateway to the “Mountains N of…”
      Only didn’t confirm “the Rocky Mountain range” in the beginning. In fact, I don’t think/recall he ever referred to the RM’s as the ‘entire range’… we ‘assumed’ it because Canada was still a possibility at one time.

      But lets face facts, If he narrowed it down to any one state… NM might take the award away, if it’s not that state. lol

      • Hi Seeker, Iv’e wondered if there were any implications, to his having said local community, hiding place wise?. In another video, there was a sequence of him going into the jewelry shop of a friend, in SF. and asking the guy, if he had been out looking for the chest. It gave me the impression, that the hiding place could be local, mainly because this guy had a small business to run, and probably not a lot of time off. It made me think that if it wasn’t local, why would Mr. Fenn taunt his friend? The guy did say he had searched for the chest, and that they were good friends.

    • Frank, I checked several dictionaries & thesaurus’ but I cant find any that says NIGH is LEFT or FAR is RIGHT. Seems like I heard it long ago. Was it farm talk, like Gee & Haw instructions to a plow mule? Or nautical talk? Regional lingo? Seriously, I’d like to know where or when NIGH meant left.

        • I wonder what would some say if we start chatting about synonyms;
          ~A word or phrase that means exactly or nearly the same as another word or phrase in the same language.

          Naaa, how can nigh mean left, or approach, or short just because the dictionaries say it… That’s not ‘plain english’ enough… right?

          “I looked up words and definitions of words, and changed them, went back and rebooted. I’m very pleased. The results are what I wanted. It turned out exactly like I wanted.”
          SF podcast.. 11 mins

          • I’m uncertain as to what you are asking, OS2. Are you asking besides “nigh” being mentioned in the poem? It’s possible some words might be related to other words/meanings in the poem.

          • No. I meant was there a time or culture when NIGH was in common usage as meaning LEFT. In my experience, NIGH (near) is pretty much relegated to poetry or Gothic American speech. I dont know where I got NIGH is LEFT, but it seemed right to me when the discussion first came up several years ago. Now I am curious. You guys are so good at research, I wonder if you are editors, archivists, librarians, or something.

          • Another point…the definition of “left” as in left hand, left direction, you wont find nigh as a synonym. IMO

          • Hello Sandy. It does as an adjective, and when used as a noun, it appears to mean left and gawk. I was simply looking up the word “gauche” to find its meanings.

            Hello OS2. I’m not sure of the answer to your question. I believe many searchers are looking up individual words of the poem, as well as, a combination of words and finding their meanings and coming up with their definitions/understanding of the poem and clues. I provided a link, and it shows nigh has a meaning of left. What we need to know is how Mr. Fenn intended them (the words) to mean.

        • oops, hit reply here, but didn’t end up here… (sorry for double post)

          The Vocabulary.com link, shows a website that was created after the chase started, 2011 and a secondary definition added in that time, with no examples of using the word in that context of “left”….

          it appears to have been added after the fact by what I would imagine was a searcher who was wondering why it was not there…. but hey, one has that going for them if they want to believe…..

        • I wonder if anyone reading this owns an actual dictionary.

          I see lots of references to the horrible and inaccurate websites.

          I am a contributor to a number of these. If you like I can make Nigh mean something else.

          Let me know

          • Would you believe I have several, including archaic, foreign language, crossword puzzle, among others? Another dictionary in the mix won’t hurt any. Or will it? 🙂

    • I also think “nigh” is just “near”. In my current solve, the end where you can find the blaze is actually located left when you’re going down the creek, but at the end you’re going straight toward it.
      Again I keep saying that the direction is not that important if you correctly identified the location. All you have to do is just go from location A to location B.
      — MK

  23. What if “the end is ever drawing nigh” is just a double entendre that you are getting closer….death is inevitable. “I have done it tired….and now I’m weak”. Just a thought , but this line ( the end is ever drawing nigh ) may be an early line when ff was was thinking about expiring with the chest…..he saw no need to revise this line as time progressed and his prognosis changed, and the poem changed.

    Thinking is the best way to travel and the biggest of all nations is the imagination. The above thinking out loud is purely my own opinion and may not be an opinion of any others. It is shared in the spirit of meekness and is not meant to asay a verbal tug-o-war.


  24. Remember the story about Copper Dan’s Copper art from last September?

    I just got a note from him. He has about 20 left of the 80 “Where Warm Waters Halt” pieces they made.

    These sculptures make a beautiful gift…and we are in the season of gift giving…just sayin…

    The link to the story with links to where you can buy one…
    Each piece is individually hand crafted, numbered and signed…


  25. Hi All: As someone recently pointed out (can’t remember if it was here or a different blog), in this past year’s 6 Questions with Jenny, Forrest wrote as part of his reply to Q3: “The Chinese have a saying, ‘The tree grows slowly, but the earth is patient.'” That searcher pointed out that the actual line is “The ox is slow, but the earth is patient.” But it’s not an old Chinese saying, but rather a Buddhist-sounding proverb that was made up for the 1983 movie “High Road to China” with Tom Selleck. What’s interesting is if you Google that ox line, you’ll find this information and more at:


    Take a look at that symbol underneath the proverb in the picture! Looks somewhat familiar, doesn’t it?

    But if you dig a little deeper into this rabbit hole, you’ll find there is a book entitled “The Things They Carried” by Tim O’Brien. Two characters (non Native Americans) are being taught a rain dance by Kiowa, and when rain fails to materialize, one of them says, “So where’s the rain?” Kiowa replies: “The earth is slow, but the buffalo is patient.”

      • Thanks, JDA — I thought it might be an interesting twist for searchers. At any rate, it’s one more Fenn “quote” to add to the aberration pile.

    • Definitely fitting words for the winter…though in Yellowstone the longer the winter the shorter the Buffalo’s lifespan, so that patience comes at a cost.

      As for Tom Selleck, definitely loved him in “Quigley Down Under”, which is fitting as Alan Rickman’s Christmas moment is quickly coming upon us (definitely miss his talent).

      So is the hint that we are all to be patient in the winter time and wait for the Earth to make the time right to search again?

      • The hint I see is very specific for my solution. Zap always seems to find the hint/aberration and then it always fits my solution. We don’t see the hints the same way, but we see them fit both of our solutions. BTW, thank you Zap!

  26. The Vocabulary.com link, shows a website that was created after the chase started, 2011 and a secondary definition added in that time, with no examples of using the word in that context of “left”….

    it appears to have been added after the fact by what I would imagine was a searcher who was wondering why it was not there…. but hey, one has that going for them if they want to believe…..

    • That’s interesting, Writis. I can only think that one possibility is that when one reads it may mean the left side of the horse, that when one sees “left” that it directs to the meaning of simply “left”. I really don’t know. The dictionaries/thesauruses I’ve read mainly states “near/close,” along with other synonyms.

      • I think the person who started it was an evil genius 🙂

        In reality I think someone early on in the chase found some obscure thing, (actually i think they found some nautical reference that didn’t actually mean that, not that ff has a nautical bone in his body) then wrote out their theory, since the story/theory was early in the chase, there were very few things to read about the chase, so anyone coming along later would come across that person’s theory, and maybe 20% would just take it as a given, which took on a life of it’s own. anyway that is my “theory”.

    • Merriam-Webster
      1 : close, near
      2 chiefly dialectal : direct, short
      3 : being on the left side

      adjective, nigh·er, nigh·est.
      near; approaching: Evening is nigh.
      short or direct: to take the nighest route.
      (of an animal or vehicle) being on the left side: to be astride the nigh horse.
      Archaic . parsimonious; stingy.

      Maybe these site changed the meaning of the word after the chase began as well… Note; if Nigh can refer to a left side of a vehicle, horse, in the example, it can also be of a person, a bicycle, a creek…

      • well we can’t say when those extra “meanings” were added, just that they were added… how do I know? (see below) We can say that for english anyway, there is no “official” dictionary or organization, like other languages have, so words and meanings get added on the wings of who ever feels like adding them on a whim. that is as “official” english has been or ever will be.

        one way to settle it really, is there are only two ways that ff could have ‘learned’ to use the word in that way, by hearing it by word of mouth, or by reading it in a story.

        since he came from a household with a teacher in it, there is little chance he ‘learned’ to use the word, by word of mouth. Since he would have been corrected. (that is if that meaning got added later than about 50 years ago) more like 8 years ago. Since I happen to own a “dictionary” that everyone thought was official from 50 years ago, (not 80) but wouldn’t of had words taken out, so from that time period, a teacher would have consulted this dictionary, (being that we were all mislead in the idea that this dictionary was “official”, it was not) He would have found the only real meaning of “nigh” which actually had 3 entries surprisingly enough. to save you time, they all meant “near”.

        So how do I know that that secondary “meaning” got added? because, as I said, I own this dictionary where that “meaning” was not there, but apparently was added later, because it is the same dictionary, just updated on a whim, sometime in the last 50 years.

        the second way is by reading it in a (at least some what) popular story… so that he would have at least heard about the story to actually read about it.

        So, all one would have to do is to find an actual literary story/book/poem, anything written before the chase started, and ideally 50 years or more ago, where they used that term, and meant it that way.

        good luck with that search. 🙂

        • Writis,

          Type in google search any word of interest and it will show a timeline of when the word is known to have been first used.
          Nigh, in this case, goes back to at least 1800. So the word itself as been around a long while.
          But for the life of me, I don’t understand how folks use terms as ‘secondary meaning’
          All definitions of any word is usable and ‘equal’ at the writer’s discretion.. especially in poem form, and especially in ‘this poem’ that has the need for ‘deciphering clues.’

          I would gather you could use 20 different dictionaries, and because of space [ in the book ] and cost of the book [size].. some definitions are not present.
          fenn even stated; he doesn’t use a dictionary, he googles the words. [Wordsmith’s Q&A] IF any definition/ meaning/ usage and yes synonym of the word can be found on any dictionary web site, is it not in play?

          I say synonyms because, this poem is rhyming it words. To find a usable word to keep the rhyming flow, a synonym with the “exact meaning” **of fenn’s ‘intent’ ** [ that was for you ken, lol, enjoy! ] of another words meaning, is in play.

          So if a word such a ~ water ‘high’ ~ is needed and high can only be used by the writer, a certain meaning of Nigh.. whatever the meaning is… lets say left, to keep left as the information in that particular line correct… is in play, and nigh to the rhyming of high.

          To argue that nigh does not mean left is just ridiculous. To say it’s not in one dictionary vs. another doesn’t matter. One meaning of nigh means left side [ the friggin horse is an example of its usage. I said that because someone state it means for animals, it can be of a car or even a creek etc.]
          The whole point of this discussion is how to understand the words fenn used, deliberately used, when we are told it would be risky to discount any word.

          We can debate; “begin it…” as a simple starting point. We can also debate; “Begin it where…” as a point in time. I could add that, Nigh also can mean of “time or space”. If we can connect time into the equation… begin it where [in time] warm waters halt…

          Lets take it a step further. IF WWH can be deciphered as a glacier [ for example only ] Take it in the canyon down, can be the creation of that canyon, by the glacier over time.
          Not far [ back in time ] but to far to walk [ we can physically walk back in time]

          Regardless of what you hope nigh or any word means … straightforward doesn’t always mean simple or easy… it also means “in all honesty.” Honesty of the words ‘fenn’ chose to get his point across, in poem form and rhyming style, that took him 15 years to perfect the way he wanted it to be.

          With all that crap said. Sure, nigh can mean near, that is ‘one’ definition of the word. Only, it just doesn’t have to be that definition only.

          “…If it was easy, anyone could do it.”

          • I agree with you Seeker – I think that in this case in the poem nigh means left – once you are in the wood you have to know where to start looking and the poem tells you this – it has to ff said that every thing you need is in the poem – im sure he is not going to let you go in the wood with out direction as to where to look

        • Hi Seeker: for what it’s worth, the origin of “nigh” dates back to at least the year 900. It’s a very old word.

      • I haven’t read all the replies, but I think this is another funny little thing people are doing. Did anyone here every grow up around horses? Has anyone here asked someone who owns horses. I’ve done neither, but I have friends who had horses, and I was taught to always mount and dismount on the left side of the horse. When your mounting, (on the left side), that side happens to be nearer (nigh) to you. Left = Nigh. Far = Right. It’s pretty straightforward and simple.

        The web has doubled, tripled, quintupled in size since the chase began. So finding something added after 2010 doesn’t really mean anything.

        • NDKarl,

          I had friends with horses, only I never heard of nigh used in that manner. LOL but just because I personally never had doesn’t mean its obscure never used definition.

          But here’s a question. We need to decipher what the poem is relaying. Can a word like nigh have a meaning of left, and we are able to use left as an indicator for a directional use as ‘west’?
          Some may say this is changing a word. I say it’s an attempt to understand nigh might be a directional indicator… by the use of the words definition of left side.
          Grant ya, it need to conform to the full context of what is being relayed [ be it a line, sentence and/or full poem]. But isn’t that our job? to figure out exactly what is being stated…

          So i’m curious to your thoughts, that you understand nigh as left [ without a dictionary ] Would you say left can refer to west? [especially when we take to maps in the attempt to locate the clue’s references]

      • Anybody looked the definitions of the word LEFT? Nigh is not a synonym for left and has never been. The nigh side of a horse works just like the driver side of a car or the port side of a vessel and nothing else. It will be incorrect to call your left arm your nigh arm just as much it would be to call it your port arm for example.

        • Oz,

          I kinda agree that it might be wrong to call ‘your left arm’ ‘your nigh arm.’ However, it is your ‘left side,’ and that is one of the definitions of nigh… left side.
          So why can’t [ for example ] the left side [bank] of a creek, not be called the nigh side of the creek?

          I asked this of another, I like to ask you the same. We are attempting to decipher what fenn wants deciphered. Nigh does mean left side. And fenn may have been limited to words while attempting to keep a rhyming poem.
          So, if he needed the word ‘high’ [water high] in the place he needed it, and the line with nigh was meant to refer to left or west side on a map… doesn’t nigh fit the bill for both ideas of each clue?
          LOL the poem would look silly if it read… the end is ever drawing left or to left side or west looking at a map.. right? Umm I mean, correct?

          Heck, until this challenge if someone told me “far” by one definition means right side, I’d of said Pffttt !!

          I think some times when we read the poem, we forget the part of… we need to decipher / interpret what is being stated as a clue, rather than, what we read should be that answer straight up.

          If anyone should take away anything from this conversion … it might be that groups thoughts might not be the way to go. But it still fun to BS about it all with other. It’s better than comedy central.

          • Seeker,

            Sure, the poem turned out exactly the way he wanted. In that stanza I think he needed to include ‘heavy loads and water high’, he made that comment about throwing his bike in there at the water high, so assuming it is a body of water walking distance from the hidey place that he uses as reference, he needed that in the poem.

            Instead of using the end is drawing near, he changed it to ‘the end is ever drawing nigh’. It rhymed, it worked.

          • Oz,
            I always been curious about ‘throwing the bike in water high’ I also think he said, when I’m through with it.
            That is an indication of finalizing the task, imo. Which makes me think a few scenarios.
            An easy travel to that point from the car, I doubt fenn is riding rough terrain on a bike at age 80. Not that he did that, just the idea, the travel/path is a relatively easy task to do.
            The other thing is, where in the poem Water high is. It is stated just before “if you’ve been wise and found the blaze.” Which might also be an indicator that HLnWH’s deciphered reference is the blaze. Or, at the very least, where the blaze is located as you approach it.

            In many searchers solves that have been posted, most have that searcher moving on from ‘their’ HLnWH to go and look for the blaze else wear. I just don’t see the poem say that.

            But the kicker is, how can folks be that close to three things and not known anything? For example; If HLnWH was a waterfall. I would think this would be easy to see and understand. If this was the case, you basically have two points to be at.. the top or the bottom of the falls… Assuming the top [ just for fun] because that might be how they arrived there. How hard would it be to see ‘something that stands out’ ? line of thinking… with a searcher in search mode.

            It’s just curious…

          • the ^bike* and *water high^ comment is an early one 2012.
            The comment was in reply to an email from a person making some suggestions to Fenn about the logistics of how he could possibly get to where he hid the treasure. Fenn offered up the throw his bike in the “water high”…followed by the remark about the number of man hours spent on that subject. The logistics of traveling from where he theoretically would park his car for the final time. I wonder if Fenn would make the same or similar comment today had that email not happened so long ago.

          • Seeker,

            The popular assumption I see from the forums is that from wwh it is not far but too far to walk (get in the car and go) to the home of Brown. That is one way to see it but it could also be the culprit of searchers leaving the poem. I also understood it that way for a long time but not so sure now and the theory of the clues living closer together makes more sense.

            As I wrote on a previous post, there are two sentences in the second stanza with a big fat period at the end of ‘too far to walk’. If we believe that ff used punctuation correctly and for a reason, then it seems logical that whatever the distance (or clue reference) of not far, but too far to walk is between where wwh and the canyon down. I don’t see this meaning to get in a car and go to that place where is too far to walk, there is more to this clue.

            Put in below the home of Brown, is its own sentence. If we look at the (below) reference, then the home of Brown is our (True North) cause every clue preceding the ‘put in’ happened, are located, or refers to some place BELOW the home of Brown.

            The throwing the bike in the water high comment was a reply to someone’s question about the logistics of the location, (just like what ken commented below) and even though we know he walked from the car to the hiding spot and back to the car both times (he has said so in multiple occasions) when asked in this instance was related to his intention of going there to go with it.

            Based on that we can assume a few things:

            1. You can get to the place where he parked his car by bike at least, or even closer if this is a bike trail.
            2. The water high is a body of water where one can throw a bike to make it disappear from sight.
            3. From the water high to the tc may only be reached by walking, IF no place for the meek and no paddle up your creek describes the path.

            The semicolon in the 3rd stanza seems to be making a contrast of two paths. The no place for the meek where the end is drawing nigh goes one way, but no paddle up your creek just heavy loads and water high goes in the opposite direction.

          • Ken,

            There was another Q&A about alternate transportation or only walked… BUT the entire Q&A is very interesting.

            IF fenn was going to make a non-return trip, and ‘possibly’ use a bike from his car, parked farther away, making it more difficult to use the car as a search perimeter… it still implies an easy travel all the way to the chest’s hidey spot. or at the very least, to water high.
            Where he tosses the bike [ that carried 42 extra lbs.], and walks to the hidey spot, throws himself on the chest.
            Only, from a different parking area, much farther away.

            Holy Crap, the chest is in Denver!!! Now all we need to do is; set up a perimeter from the museum, where an 80 yr old could pedal one time, in one afternoon, follow the clues less than a few miles [ cut that in half for a one way trip ], and lay to rest at his final resting place.
            In theory?

            Yep, it would be interesting, if he wanted to complete the original action today… would it be the same as 8 years ago? or even if he would want to.

          • Oz,

            Yep, I too think the ‘sentence’ BIBHOB is meant for the ‘sentence’ above.
            The idea is; we decipher what WWH refers to, but nail it down [out of the many] by finding the hoB reference that is above it all.

            Personally, I don’t even really think about the bike idea… except when it come to water high itself… the most obvious conclusion is water related. However, I still think the poem revolves around the blaze and WWH… so HLnWH could be at WWH.

            Below hoB is where the trove lays in wait… line of thinking. We need ‘all’ the ingredients understood. In their correct order… HOB is a stand alone statement, like you implied, it the home of everything needed for deciphering.
            But, you’ll never find it without deciphering WWH’s ‘reference’ and you won’t know if you have the correct WWH [out of the many] without the correct hoB.

            In theory…

          • The bike statement I took only as an example of how F could arrive to the hiding place. There are a lot of ways that he could arrive with minimal detection. I do have a theory as to how he got there after he hid the treasure.

            I believe F hid the treasure first and then later went back to his resting place without being detected. Even if someone saw him they wouldn’t know it was him because he wouldn’t have put the poem out there until he went to the hiding place. The theory I have, I can’t disclose now, believe me I would like to.

            Just Say’n

          • Remember the *Who is Brown?* question? In part, Fenn’s answer was **… If I told you that…. **. That part of all the Fenn comments rubs me when I think about the overall issue. That, and [if you know HOB].

          • Ken,

            I don’t think “who is Brown”, I think “what is Brown”? This is in a natural [nature] setting a place.

          • Seeker,
            However, I still think the poem revolves around the blaze and WWH… so HLnWH could be at WWH.

            I agree with that, HLnWH could be WWH. Also, WWH must be correlated to hoB.

          • CharlieM… I agree that the mode of transportation could be whatever… the bike seems arbitrary. Also… the Who is Brown…question doesn’t compel me to assume that Brown is a person either. Probably safe to keep it a *what*… less bias forming and does conform to nature.
            The early comments from Fenn seem to be somewhat less guarded…but who knows. I am intrigued that Fenn offered up the *bike* scenario…and that this was an occasion referring to him traveling for the last time to do the deed and stay there. A couple of ideas that jump out are;(a) the ability for Fenn to ride his bike all the way to water high. Or at least part way…then push it the rest. (b) The idea that Fenn got well and hid the treasure and made two trips from his car to hide the treasure. Is the place of parking his vehicle the same in both scenarios? Or was the *bike* scenario one of logistics to throw folks off his trail for the “final bier” ?

          • Ken,

            It may well be as you said that the statement could be misdirection. I’ll give one thing to put out there, there is no lake in close approximately to where he could have thrown a bike, if it were a creek maybe, a river maybe.

            Up to water high would be more than likely not. I’m thinking that to toss a bike in water high would be were an 80 year old wouldn’t go with a bike.

            My thought is where he parked the car is not the same in both scenarios, because where he parked the car with the bike would be easy to find the car near his treasure. Where he parked the car would put the search for him in a small area in the RM.

            The bike thing is, if he rode the bike it would have to be a great distance from where he parked the car, at 80 in not good health I don’t think it would be feasible or practical IMO

          • Hi Ken — “My 2 Sense” on the bike business. I think the two scenarios (dying vs. not dying) entail different logistics, but with some similarities. If he had abandoned his sedan where I think he parked, and made his one-and-a-half round trips, his body (and presumably the treasure) would have been found within a week due to its proximity to a vehicle that could be traced to him.

            So if he had gone with his original plan, I think the scenario would have involved renting a car (perhaps weeks or months in advance) and hiding the treasure just as he ultimately did. On that trip he could purchase a bicycle (preferably, and probably unavoidably, far from the hiding place), and then stash it somewhere out of sight in a forest, and finally return home.

            Then, on the appointed day, fly (unencumbered by 42 lbs. of loot) to whatever gateway city he liked, and perhaps then take a bus (or taxi) to the town or crossroads closest to where he ditched the bicycle. Hike to the bike, then ride it 10 miles, 20 miles, whatever he could handle, back at least as close to the treasure as he had parked weeks or months before. When riding becomes no longer practical, ditch the bike (in the water high, if that’s a choice), and hike the remainder of the way.

            No car to find. No bicycle to find. Gateway airport perhaps hundreds of miles away, and the last interaction with any other person perhaps 10 or 20 miles from the treasure.

          • All;

            I have posed this before, but instead of riding the bike, couldn’t Forrest have used the bike to help carry the weight? Forrest could have strapped a backpack onto the handlebars or even the bar between the seat and the handlebars – or how about one of those little racks over the back wheel?

            This would have taken a load off of his shoulders. He could have walked beside the bike going uphill, and ridden the bike downhill. You know the old saying about once you learn to ride a bike, you never forget.

            Once Indulgence is secreted, toss the bike in Water High – take a handful of pills, and the deed is done.

            If the place Indulgence is secret, away from trails etc. so what if his car were found in the parking lot? This would have happened whether a bike was used or not. Searchers would know that he had disappeared, searched the general area, and maybe not found his body. Forrest says he has thought of everything. After just a couple of days bears/mountain lions, eagles, crows etc would dispose of the body. Just a thought – JDA

          • JDA, pushing the treasure in there on a bike could have been the plan. If he was in poor health then the bike might be an easier option than the backpack. If there is a bike path or decent trail nearby at least.

        • ** ** ** Seek said – “until this challenge if someone told me “far” by one definition means right side, I’d of said Pffttt !!” ** ** **

          Not right, but too right to walk.

          Or could it be

          Not east, but too east to walk.

          (or could be yet another bridge too far – and too risky to choose)

          • Point taken, JAK. For a poem full of antonym pairs, where is the antonym for “far”? And no, “not far” doesn’t count. 😉

          • Not far but TOO FAR to walk. The only question I have is if you are going South at this point. Then, wouldn’t East be left and West be right?
            Taking the left arm example, what if it is a picture you are looking at? Then, the left arm would be on the right, so would the right arm actually be the “nigh” arm? Since it is on the left?
            Again, with everything “chase” we should know by now that if f doesn’t explain the answer, we must look at both sides of the coin.
            We could discuss forever why nigh is left or whatever, but what is it to f? It could be that at that point, a lot of definitions may fit the actual. Is f seeing this in real time, or, is he looking at a picture? Is left West or is it East? Are we approaching from the North or the South? And why use the word “ever”? That, IMO, is the word that needs attention. The end is drawing nigh, or the end is ever drawing nigh. Means the same thing, (in our world) but to f, needing to use the word “ever”, means something in how we read the poem. I find it a little interesting that “I” and “sever” could come from the word ever. Not saying this is why, just interesting that actual words can be gained from just using “ever”. Saying the end is drawing nigh will not yield anything like this and, if just talking about how the end is getting closer, or if we will be moving left, or whatever, it could be written this way. “the end is drawing nigh”. In f fashion, the word “ever” changes how it is possible to read the poem. Who knows, with the ATF about spices and looking into Evergreen trees, maybe we come to an evergreen tree and must move to the left? Wouldn’t pass the test of time, but who knows. I think that if we could figure why he used the word “ever” we will be closer in how to read the poem properly.

          • Jak,

            The could be saying just that… right in a directional turn.
            Turn right go to the next right and take that as well, line of thinking. Imagine a path with two Y splits and it works as directions.
            I’m not diggin it, but it is possible. The major problem is “too” That would be corrupting a word { is that done in the poem?}… however, if that’s the intent? to, two, too. and nigh left-W and far right – E, up N. Down S.
            Each directional pointer would need to be understood exactly while a searcher is traveling. In this case, many wrong turns can be made with the wrong decipher.
            For example; stanza 2; a stop, that means a start. Turn down, go down in elevation, or go S… get that one wrong and you’re screwed at the beginning.
            Then not one turn right, but two right turns is your next two steps.

            I think folks are trying to be too literal by thinking a meaning of a word need to replace the word in the sentence.. as you showed above… we’re attempting to understand what is being relayed, not rewrite the line.

            Just thoughts as direction in stomping…


            Why does the poem have to have antonym usages at all? That’t the opposite of the word used, right? I wouldn’t call that straightforward by any definition of the words.
            Synonyms mean exactly the same thing, just not in your face , literal, the same thing. Nigh as near, and nigh a s left. If we are to stay left for whatever reason in this section of the solve, fenn needed a word to say just that and match water’high’ later.

          • Seeker: my only point about bringing up antonym pairs is that there are close to a dozen in the poem:

            bold/weak, new/old, begin/(halt/end/cease/done), warm/cold, meek/brave, tarry/go, down/up, take/give (or keep/give), my/your, and far/nigh. It seems unlikely that there would be so many in such a short poem unless it was done deliberately.

            But if nigh exclusively means “left” in the poem, then there is no antonym to pair with “far”. I suppose you could counter that “too far” is the antonym of “not far,” but then nigh is left hanging. Just a pattern observation, and hardly definitive.

          • The one thing that is not being brought up in regards to,”the end is ever drawing”, is this idea, that a path could most definitely be going slowly to the left, much like a gradual arc all the way to the end of the path.

            From the start of the path it goes gradually to the left to its end. It’s much like “forever” going to the left [nigh] all the way to the end.

            This is how IMO that line is interpreted and it’s straightforward.

          • ** ** ** Zap asks “For a poem full of antonym pairs, where is the antonym for “far”? And no, “not far” doesn’t count. ” ** ** **

            A horse is a horse
            of course, of course,
            and nigh is what’s left of a horse,
            of course,

            unless, of course
            the name of the horse
            is the famous “Far-Side Ed”

            (And then there’s good ol’ “Off-Side Ox”, the oafish tight end who was ever drawing penalty flags)

          • I need to add to my above post. Not only it could pertain to a path, it also could apply to a creek, stream, road, valley or a canyon.

    • Writis… as JKraven pointed out earlier… that does seem to be the case with *vocabulary.com*. It is interesting and may/may not be misleading. It can’t be refuted that many dictionaries do have an entry for *nigh* as an adj. containing left side of a horse blah blah. I’m looking at three hard copies right now. What I do find interesting with this *nigh* thread is that there seems to be a line in the sand that folks on either side can’t seem to cross. I see it this way…

      Because Fenn has said that he looked up words… and changed them… and rebooted, and has admitted to corrupting words and seems to find it clever, I’m going to pay attention to as many possibilities as I can. If the word nigh is commonly used in reference to *near*, which I definitely agree to… I am definitely going to also keep in mind the possibility that *left* may come into play because one of the primary definitions of *near* is *left*. In the end… the proof will be in the pudding. I also remembered last night that EC Waters threw in a curveball 2016 or so… a supposed surveyor’s term… the word *neigh*( as in neighbor). I never went down that dusty path though….

      • Hi Ken: “Because Fenn has said that he looked up words… and changed them… and rebooted, and has admitted to corrupting words and seems to find it clever, I’m going to pay attention to as many possibilities as I can.”

        which you should pay attention to as many “possible” ways of looking at this as you can, however, what if ff was looking up meanings and terms, and that meaning was not available to him…. that is my point, I am looking at a dictionary, where that meaning was not there… now that is not to say he looked somewhere else, and at a different time…. but we can narrow down the time, and I believe he would have cross referenced, to make sure….

        so the long story short, I believe the term was added AFTER about 20 years ago, (more like 8 years ago). When he was creating the poem. 22 years to about 8 years ago, that meaning was not there.

        and really the only way he would have added that meaning, is if he saw it in a story/poem he really liked….. now find that story…. I say that story does not exist, because that meaning did not exist 50 years ago, or even 20 years ago.

        • Interesting. I have on my desk a 1989 Merriam-Webster Ninth Edition Collegiate dictionary that I just pulled off the shelf. In it is the word nigh. As an adj. it is defined : close, near; direct, short; being on the left side.

          When I look up the word near, one of the meanings as an adj. is; being the closer of the two, being the left-hand one of a pair.

          All fine and good… I still find the line in the sand interesting. Also…the primary copyright date of this 1989 edition is 1983.

          Here’s another wedgy of sorts… Fenn’s corruption of the word proximity. He spelled it *proximaty*….

          • “Also…the primary copyright date of this 1989 edition is 1983.”

            interesting… I would not have guessed it would be in there that early.

            I had always imagine the word got corrupted to that “meaning” using the “horse” reference, but not at that time period, much later, and by searchers.

            since it was in there that early, I guess ff would have had access to it at that meaning.

            It still would be interesting to see a story/poem/book from before the chase, where someone of any slight literary popularity use that term that way.

            well obviously not from 50 years or more ago, but maybe from 20 years ago it is possible.

          • oh one thing, mine says “pocket edition”, I don’t think they leave off secondary meanings, I think they just used really tiny printing font for the “pocket” version, unless yours also says pocket or if someone has the “full size” one from ’64 to ’73, that could be one reason it is not there in mine, but it does have 3 different entries, strange if they did leave off a secondary meaning.

          • mine is full sized Writis. I have some older versions that I will look at later on and check. To me… this thread/string is a great example/study of the corruption that occurs daily within the confines of how modern vernacular can be quite hazy when many are trying to see clearly what the message is supposed to be in any given sentence. Every one seems to see it a bit different depending on a wide variety of circumstances for each person. Fenn’s poem is a collection of seemingly basic words… elementary at best… and yet he has managed to create something very difficult for more than a few to agree on at any place in the lines. Huh !

          • “The poem in my book is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you that I worked on that. I felt like an architect drawing that poem.”

          • Hi Ken/Writis/All – I consulted my 10-pound tome (2nd Edition of the Unabridged Random House Dictionary) copyright 1987. It has:

            1. near in space, time, or relation: The time draws nigh.
            2. nearly; almost; (often followed by on or onto): nigh onto twenty years.

            3. near; approaching: Evening is nigh.
            4. short or direct: to take the nighest route.
            5. (of an animal or vehicle) being on the left side: to be astride the nigh horse.
            6. Archaic. parsimonious; stingy.

            7. near.

            8. Archaic. to approach.

          • Writis,

            The word “nigh” was used to indicate the left horse(s) of a team of horses pulling wagons and pulling a plow in a field, this also applies to oxen.

            I have personally known this use of nigh since about 1955 in my lifetime. Just because it wasn’t in a dictionary that you have or came across, does not mean nigh for left did not exist. I was raised on a very large ranch which the primary purpose was to raise Angus and draft horses, nigh was left and near was right.

            A point to make is that different names have been used for the same thing depending on which part of the US it is being used, such as a simple thing a plastic flexible sheathing that comes in a roll is also called visqueen. The word visgueen is not in the dictionary, yet it is being used primarily in the midwest.

            This is my example of words that do and did exist, yet not in a dictionary. The dictionaries are frequently up dated with words that are new and old. The dictionaries are never changed as you say, “on a whim”.

            For me “nigh” is either near or left, depending on the context that it is being used. I would almost bet that F may know some words that we are not familiar with.

            Just Say’n

          • CharlieM

            “For me “nigh” is either near or left, depending on the context that it is being used. I would almost bet that F may know some words that we are not familiar with.”

            With you also stating that “near” can be right (especially when used with “nigh” as the left horse. One could potentially see nigh as taking a turn (left or right) as you stated, ‘or me “nigh” is either near or left’, or simply close by to the location when you come upon that part of the poem. I am not sure that you agree with turn (left or right) but it is an interesting train of thought with some wordplay.

          • I just looked up visqueen, at the time I was using the word back in 1990 through 2005, it was not in the dictionary and now it is found in the Old Oxford dictionary. So I stand corrected in saying the word is not in a dictionary.

          • . . . . Maybe (IMO) so he wouldn’t technically/legitimately be guilty of saying “proximity” in that context . . . .

            I don’t remember ever seeing his definition of “a human

        • Writis- “because that meaning did not exist 50 years ago”

          I just consulted with my THE RANDOM HOUSE DICTIONARY of the ENGLISH LANGUAGE, 1966 (52 years ago). It’s almost as thick as the chest and probably weighs about the same. It includes every definition that has been put forth by ‘others’.

          Mr. Fenn said it took him 15 years to write the poem. I think it would be Scroogelike (considering the season:) to not utilize any and all possible meanings when postulating a solve. Otherwise you may find you’ve left yourself coming up short when approaching the chest’s location. Ho Ho Ho

          • Hi Miafarmerfriend: I figured that was the case! Funny we have the same monstrosity. Thanks for confirming that the “left side of the animal” definition was in there back at the time of the first edition (which mine says was 1966 — in agreement with you).

          • Thanks Jake…for… “the animal’s LEFT side, called the NEAR side by horsemen.”,,,, and for the oxen walker being on the nearer nigh side . An earlier post said NIGH was the left member of a team of 2, and the right member was the NEAR. I think the word NIGH must have been a corruption of the word NOT or NAY. …… there’s a NEAR ox and a NIGH (NOT NEAR) ox. …. those downstream waters are pretty muddy.

      • Ken,

        In reference to nigh as near… nigh ‘by definition’ means approach, approaching. The meaning doesn’t change the word, although the idea might be ‘something’ [ such as water, for example ] is flowing in the direction ‘toward’ you [ a searcher ].
        The point is; If the word nigh can be used in this manner… “the end” can take on a new idea or place… maybe the source of the water itself as the end or one end of the flowing water?

        So when I read that line [ while keeping everything else in the poem in my thoughts ] IF nigh was only meant as near [ which it can be ] What is near referring to?
        If we look at this line as directional; left side makes more sense.
        No matter how anyone read the poem [ for interpretation, of understand what a clue is about ] the idea has to make sense to be usable as a clue. Near doesn’t really explain ‘what’ is near. In most cases we have read in other solves… approaching fits better. But what is approaching and from where?? would that be the first thing someone would try to understand while look at all the maps we look at?

        LOL the other idea is nigh may not be ‘that’ important at all. The end could be referring to “just” HLnW’High’, and fenn needed a word that would work with the rhyme and the intended idea. LOL I mean, what is ‘high’ about?

        I just find it hilarious that some can say nigh doesn’t mean left side… they seems to only read the very first meaning, say; good enough, and skip all the other. make excuses a web dictionary page changed, or claim others are deliberately being misleading for some reason or their dictionary doesn’t have that meaning. Well, that’s what ya get for a $5.99 dictionary book or the word of the day calendar.

        Could it be when fenn stated; he doesn’t have a dictionary [wordsmith’s Q&A] he looks up word on google for faster references, or when he changed words and ‘rebooted’ [SF podcast] he kept looking for words and their meanings that work the way he needed them to?

        • I agree to a point Seeker…however… a more common term used is *draw near*. In determining what Fenn may have been thinking it is not a real big leap to *draw* the conclusion that drawing nigh sounded good to Fenn because of the impending need to come up with a word later in the stanza that rhymed with nigh and fit his *thinking* better.

          • Ken;

            I think that more emphasis should be put on the words “drawing” and “ever”. One definition of ever is “continuing” Are we to continue moving towards a drawing or depiction of something – Getting ever closer (nearer) or moving towards the left to reach this drawing or depiction?

            Could this “drawing” or “depiction” be a “Blaze” of some kind on a cliff face – or something like that? HUMMM ??? JDA

          • Ken,
            I’m not arguing nigh means near, that’s obvious it does. Like JDA just produced “ever” can mean continuing.
            Draw or drawing can mean pulling toward [ think gravity and landscape for a sec.]
            Now nigh might refer to as; approach or approaching. but what is it that is doing the approaching?

            With these usages of the words, the line could refer to the end; the source of the water, continuing flowing [ kinda eliminates a dry creek bed, idea ]. As it approaches, approaching you [ the searcher. The idea seems to imply the searcher is not moving. Which creates a different conclusion to the idea a searcher need to physically follow a creek.

            Same words are used from the poem, only different meanings of the words produce a different scenario.
            One has searchers moving, the other has searcher staying put, and “observing”
            Which we have been told from the very beginning; “think, analyze, plan and ‘observe”

            The same point can be made for “take it in”
            So, looking at meanings of all the words… a scenario of observing becomes more plausible, because of how those words usages can be read as. It’s not easy, but it’s not impossible.

            Two different method become available for testing: Stomping, driving, boating, flying, riding horses and Quads, climbing / hiking up and down canyons, trying a turn here or a turn there then trying a different turn here or a different turn there, going N or S or E or W, circling back, blah blah blah.. we have heard them all…
            This is an observational method… needing wwh or bust. To nailed down WWH, don’t leave the poem, searchers at wwwh [ first two clues ] went by everything else. Didn’t understand the significance of where they were, some being within 500′ and others 200’ from the chest, not know how close they were…

            But if others want to make excuses fenn only tells 85% of the truth 100% of the time, bring unknowns into affect, driving vs. fenn saying he walked, because “take it in” must only mean going into a canyon.. and we have no other options.

            I’ll add; near can be a place in time as well. Using this “definition” can produce other thoughts. IF “the end” is time related, it changed how the poem can be understood as well.

            That should shake a few feathers… lol

            LOL the poem has done it’s job well, right? It has sweaty bodies rummaging all over the RMs
            “it’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking” ~ sure, I mean people figured out the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.”
            “they didn’t quit, they left the poem”

          • JDA,
            Wouldn’t a cliff face more or less contradict what Forrest has stated in the past?

            While it’s not impossible to remove the blaze it isn’t feasible to try, and I am certain it’s still there.” –Forrest 9/26/2014

            I’m not saying your interpretation is wrong but on the feasibility portion of it, it’s kind of a stretch? I mean sure, if you have a jackhammer or some other means of repelling off a cliff and removing it then it’s kind of a stretch, no? Just throwing that out there.

          • By George;

            Forrest said (as you posted – “While it’s NOT IMPOSSIBLE to remove the blaze iIT ISN’T FEASIBLE TO TRY and I am certain it’s still there.” –Forrest 9/26/2014

            I think that my idea of it being a depiction on a cliff face matches this perfectly. While it’s NOT impossible to remove, it isn’t feasible to try. How do you see it as not likely? – JDA

          • JDA,
            Hey, I’m not saying you’re wrong. I just think that would be a bit of a stretch is all. NEVER discount ANYTHING if it fits your solve! I just wanted to put that out there is all. I like your thinking, comments, and determination! I can only refer to my memory about one searcher dying last year when he slipped of the top of a cliff and fell. Just a safety thing for others thinking about actually trying the same. Just that and nothing more.

          • What I like about Dals site is there are some very smart folks here.

            One poster, you know who you are said, “You take 3 left turns, go home and see 2 men in masks. Most people gravitate to a home robbery. The answer is a baseball game. I gave 3 pieces of truthful information presented in sentence form but are really not. I left you to imagine and interpret what this could mean. It’s hard! Many possible answers that fit and nothing to confirm you are actually right.”

            The poem; The end is ever drawing nigh; ……. drawing nigh …… “drawing” the reins on a horse to the left. Hint “There isn’t a human trail in very close proximity to where I hid the treasure”, Maybe close to a horse trail. Hint a picture of Forrest on horseback. Many, many, many possibilities.

            Years and years to develop the poem. Many, many, many ideas shared here, it would be ashame if you had the general location nailed down, and then just walk by, going home without the chest.

            Merry Christmas to all and happy holidays.

          • JDA,
            Hey, I remember you had started your searching(BOTG) with a 3 layer approach but now it’s down to a single layer. I’ve been thinking about a 3 layer approach lately. But the first layer is layered with double entendre’s and the second layer of single, making it three layered. Would you mind me asking how your line of thinking was on the 3 layered approach?

            My third(single) leads to the word “trove” and the “o” has a very distinct 5 point star emerging from it. I’m just curious what your line of reasoning was is all. I’ve been looking at multiple angles with the constant referencing of the “3” is all. If not then no big deal. I’m just liking what I’m seeing in my solve and kinda stuck on it for now, until spring when I can get some BOTG.

          • By George,

            I think your assumption is correct… of the blaze being removed doesn’t seem to be about bulldozers and dynamite, but the act of a searcher. This might imply a little difficulty, but may give the idea the blaze is not an entire mountain, or a huge boulder, line of thinking.

            In a theory of mine, [because he knew the area well] I think it’s possible fenn “completed” the poem but following his own clues to a very small place he wanted to be at, and utilized something on site as the blaze… hence the need to follow the clues, they produce the blaze.

            I’ll go one step further and assume the blaze is the last clue [ for this theory ]. so it might be small enough not to be seen on GE, line of thinking. But that is a guess in theory.

          • JDA…here’s the short list for draw(ing)
            drag, pull
            sketch, depict with lines
            pull out; as a gun from a holster
            extract a liquid; water from well, blood sample
            deduce, infer
            rely on, utilize as source
            pull back an arrow
            to close the curtains
            of drinks; especially tea, steep
            consume; as power
            neither side winning
            result of lottery
            take top card into hand
            to cause
            golf shot(for right-handed) that intentionally curves left, slice, hook, fade
            a dry stream bed that drains surface water
            advance on pay

          • By George;

            You noticed that I put “Blaze” in quotes. In reality, whatever is depicted on this knoll is NOT my blaze. I will NOT be trying to climb it – just view it – Thanks for your concern – JDA

          • Thanks Ken;

            Nice list. I wish I knew what my “Drawing/depiction” was. Right now it is just an idea. Google Earth does not zoom in close enough, or I can not get to the right place to look from.

            Just something to play with to keep the two brain cells I have left active – 🙂 JDA

          • Seeker,
            I’m along the line of thinking that the blaze(s) are mentioned in TTOTC.

            I don’t have the chest so I don’t know. But anything is possible. If I remember correctly, when Dal and his wife had a camera crew tagging along someone asked them “so what’s the blaze?” and Dal’s wife said something to the effect “you’ll know it when you see it”. And sure enough they found one heck of a blaze that day!

            So it EASILY could be something that Forrest had spotted near his special spot and didn’t mention it in TTOTC. Anything that “stands out”, right? I think it’s going to be something on a smaller “caliber” that you’ll have to be on point to see it, or end up walking past it.

            All IMO but that’s my thought on it is all. Like I said above to JDA, NEVER discount ANTHING if it fits your solve! 8 years and counting? Makes ya wonder what it is.

          • By George – I probably did use the words – “Cliff Face” and then next used “Knoll” – Either way, it is NOT my actual Blaze, but rather a reference point as I view my search area. I will NOT be going there – just eye-balling it – JDA

          • JDA,
            Could this “drawing” or “depiction” be a “Blaze” of some kind on a cliff face – or something like that?

            Yes sir! You didn’t directly state “knoll” but “something like that” could be a knoll.

            Did you care to share your thoughts about the 3 layer approach? No big deal. I was just wondering if it was based off of the numerous times Forrest mentions the number 3 or maybe something in the poem? Mine is based off of the frequency of the use of the number 3. Kind of along the 50’s is all.

          • George,

            Yep, anything that stands out…
            But, the object has to have a purpose…

            My point is; I’m not convinced yet the blaze was predetermined while fenn was writing the poem. He wrote the poem from his recalling the area.. no maps used. He knew where he wanted to be in the area [ a relatively small place within his special place, line of thinking.. Kinda like your own bedroom in your home, idea ]

            So just like your home,he created a poem designed to [ lets say ] take you from one end of the home to the other and at your bedroom. So when fenn gets on site, he now needs a place to hide the chest, because he is at the place he wants to be, by following the clues exactly as told. This is how he may have picked an object, in a word, to be the blaze, and is only “known” as the blaze when the clues are followed exactly as told.

            Technically. in this scenario… even a searcher would not ‘know’ it as “the” blaze unless the poem brought them to that precise spot. [Call it a rock for the sake of argument.] But it’s the only rock of it size around. It means nothing to anyone passing by, but means something to the searcher who ‘found’ it. Wise and found, imo, means ‘knowing” what they found [ from the correct solve ] they “discovered” the blaze.

            Fenn may have done the same, when he followed the clues to complete [completed?] the poem. The blaze will be something that ‘stands out’ to only the person that have the solve correct.

            In this theory, my observational method [ for lack of a better title ] shows how the blaze is discovered by nailing down a spot at WWH. That spot, and only that spot, views the clues… and where that blaze is… now known of by that “observer” only.

            In short. I think fenn is simply describing what he sees, if he was standing at the chest. To get to his special spot, we need to ‘learn’ what wwh is. Without WWWH… well, like fenn said: stay home, ya got nothing.

            I’ll even add another thought. If you knew what hoB is, you’d go right to the chest.
            OK, Wnat about the creek? the place of no meekers? HL ? or WH?
            In theory…You can only find hoB from viewing from WWH. And IF another searcher manages to locate what they thought could be hoB… I’d bet my last nickle the left WWH to go to it… the left the poem, the went by all the clues and the chest.
            Ha! They may have jumped in their car and drove to it.. lol all excited knowing the got that clue [4?] correct.. only they screwed up on clue 3? Not far, but ‘too far’ to go to. [depending on how you count your clue’s references]

            Just rambling and rumbling

          • Seeker,
            Isn’t that the beauty of this poem! 8+ years and still 200-500 footers is all we have to work with!

            In my solve there isn’t just 1 blaze. 3 locations with different blazes but the end actually spells out trove with the “o” looking like a 5 point star. Along the Wy-Mt border.

            It sounds stupid but it’s there as plain as day! I just have to wait until spring to spend some time in that “o”! LOL My chances are 1 in a million or less! 🙂

          • By George;

            I was not ignoring you regarding the three layer thing. It was so long ago, I don’t exactly remember. At one time, I felt that you had to go through the poem multiple times, as many as nine. I felt this way because I would follow the poem’s clues exactly, and end up at a spot where Indulgence SHOULD be, but wasn’t. So, instead of starting over at the same WWWH, I would start the poem over from the spot that I ended up at. I did this several times, and each time, I felt that I had followed the clues precisely, and yet no TC.

            I am at a two level search if you want to look at this way. Search #1 is a “Big Picture” search area (about a 10 mile X 10 mile search area). From the place that I think Indulgence SHOULD have been I start again. This time, it is much more of a visual search than it is a physical search. My total search area is now easily within a 400′ diameter circle.Once I reach my WWWH spot, I will be able to see my hoB. I do NOT have to walk to the hoB. I do have to “put in” at a spot “below the hoB. To get there, I hike a fairly short distance, and once there, most of the other clues are confined to a very small area. A MUCH different solve than I have had in the past. We shall see if it works in the spring. Right now, just another idea – JDA

        • In my opinion this line is informing you that you are at the closest approach to the ultimate end(TC). You will pass by it, in the normal pursuit of the other clues , about 500 feet away. It is also telling you that you are to look for drawings facing left. Always more than one meaning in my opinion.

          • This is a reply to ByGeorge (farther above in this thread).
            If your “o” looks like a 5-point star, you might have more imagination than I have.

            Will you please explain more for us about this 5-point star, or show us where to find it? Thanks in advance. All IMO.

          • Tall Andrew,

            Yes, on the “o” in Trove there is a very distinct pattern for a 5 point star. At a reasonable distance away it looks like a regular “0” but when you zoom down on it much closer it’s clearly the shape of a 5 point star and the “0” looks to be a meadow.

            I sent the picture of the whole word and another one zoomed in on the ‘0″ to Forrest back in June along with my solve but haven’t been out to do my BOTG due to health reasons.

            I have seen on OUAW-Revised that Forrest has an extra star on the Revised as well as his fishing line catching a star at the bottom of the line. It’s on NFS property as well.

            I haven’t been there yet so I don’t want to disclose the exact location for obvious reasons at this point in time.

            I like what I see but only BOTG will tell the story.

        • Imo I don’t think Mr. Fenn had to look up the definition of nigh or, many other words in the poem. He most likely was very familiar with both the primary meaning of nigh (near) going back to scriptural writings and, (left) the other of the two being debated in relation to the line in the poem. I think Mr. Fenn mentioned looking up words and changing them to emphasize the various definitions of his words. As he said, there not just simple words. That to me was an obvious big hint and starting point in the chase. I’ve learned we can look up words until our heads spin BUT, ” Imagination is more important than knowledge.” jmo

        • If the ‘show the poem to a child’ method is used, we could take the end is ever drawing nigh to simply mean “the end is near” or if you’re from the south, “the end is near coming”

        • Listen up…

          All this bantering about the meaning of “nigh” is driving me and the boys (leprechaun ) loony . Take my word for it…you never want to see a frustrated and mad leprechaun. Wow…the swearing…..

          They asked me why if I told you the meaning of nigh….why you didn’t believe me? I’m sorry I had to tell the truth…that you didn’t believe either in leprechauns or wiktionary.

          I mean.. the swearing…I think my ear drums have blisters.

          1f Billy

          • I mean to say…if you are crazy enough to believe some crazy ole cote hid a pot of gold at the end of a rainbow…why don’t you believe a leprechaun? Do you believe only in things you have seen with your own eyes? I mean… I believe in Moscow is real because I take the word of people who have said they have been there. I have never been…but I believe…

  27. It is the opinion of my deputy and I that every little story Mr. Fenn tells has some meaning or hint to locating the strong box. Take for example the story of the Gypsies. What is the significance? Is it just a cute little story about a young boy slipping out at night and watching some women dance? Or could it be that we are suppose to take some clue away?

    Gypsies are also known as Irish travelers. They have a unique language, the thieves language. I cant remember the real name. Maybe…just maybe….there is something there we are suppose to learn and take away.

    Merry Christmas

    1f Billy

    • There is definitely a gypsy meaning. I am Irish but that’s not it. Kiss…what was he looking at?
      I have a takeaway from it and the picture.

    • Good Morning Billy. I did some digging into gypsy wagons a while back and found that a certain kind of Vardo is called a fen wagon. Just an observation …
      merry Christmas!

    • Sherif Billy,
      Although I agree about the hints, I have to wonder why the thieving concept of it? I don’t remember that in the story. Now if Cher were singing her song, then it would fit the bill, but I’m guessing it’s something other than some thieving language. IMO

  28. Hi all,

    I am thinking very simple here, according to what Fenn mentioned about kids reading the poem. “Please do not mess with my poem,” he also said directly. Could we read that line as simple as possible? It says that “The end is ever drawing nigh.” We have the subject, “the end”, and we have the verb, “is ever drawing”, and we have the adjective. “nigh.” I don’t see anything else. I think it means that “the end is getting near.” That’s all. “The end”, IMO. means the end of the trail or the stream or the creek you are on. “is ever drawing nigh” means that the end is getting near or close. The “ever” is added to tell you that you cannot get to the end immediately, it may take longer time, or the trail is much longer than you first thought. I think also that the end is not the same as the blaze.

    If you give up your trail and return without reaching the end, you’re not WISE, IMO. That’s why you have to be wise in order to find the blaze, the poem says. I think that “wise” may mean that you have to stay on your trail to the end, and do not stop in the middle or veer off to some other place before getting to the end of the trail to find the blaze. If you are at the end, the blaze will show itself to you naturally.

    — MK

    • I like what your saying but I have a different view of this line.
      “The end is ever drawing near;” indicates the you should not reach the end of this path. Stanza 3, on the use of the semicolon, reveals two paths. Whereas a semicolon is used to join to complementary statements, this semicolon connects two paths to follow, the no-meek path and the path you claim with a creek with heavy loads and water high.

      If you reach the end of the first path, you have bypassed the second. What clues you to turn onto the second path? I suggest the sight of seeing the blaze object of which you must see before looking down for the TC.

      Of course, on my solve, I have followed a small creek flowing into a canyon with large boulders and grassy pools of water but no TC found yet.

  29. Dal,
    I don’t see this link I’m about to post here at the bottom of the page so just delete this post if it’s against the rules. I found it to be quite helpful in the beginning.

    They break down every portion of the poem and give many possible interpretations and suggestions for each line & stanza. Maybe other’s here have seen it but I haven’t seen any mention of it. They want nothing in return for their work on breaking down the poem. They simply try to help the average searcher with suggestions.


    Again, I apologize if it’s not allowed. I just liked a lot of what they try to help us with.

  30. lets just say that you go in the wood- and lets just say that – in the wood – is 2 miles long going east and west- its only natural to start looking – for the tc in the middle- that’s why the poem says the end – is ever drawing nigh – meaning that the tc is on the left side – of in the wood – so the poem is telling you where to look

  31. Why is everyone so deep into “the clues” Begin at the beginning! I’m going to half to give everyone the location to the TreasureBEold I mean treasure. Clue #1 is where warm waters halt. Get back in the book and find where “conversation” halts… It’s this simple…COME ON! You are dealing with the master of disguise! You don’t really think water is water do you? “””STOP MUDDING THE WATERS…””” I just want to help everyone understand the first clue… Now you will need to know if Warm means heated or friendly. But once you find the phrase it will be clear…This is in TTOTC ..

    • William –

      Why don’t you just say what you think the waters are. And just say where the conversation halts.

      You don’t win anything for being obtuse.

      • Yep, another fortune cookie post.

        William, regardless of what you read warm refers to… could it be that because you think warm is heated or friendly, it can’t mean cold?
        If halt means stop, and that is the definition you are using… doesn’t that say… warm might halt being warm?
        Like Lugz stated; If you explain your idea instead of saying; COME ON! You are dealing with the master of disguise! or TreasureBEold.
        What the heck does that mean by adding a E to bold?
        treasures be old??? Does the E magically appear…
        Does this represent your idea of ‘disguising’ anything?

  32. Dal, yes I’ve been indulging in the holiday spirits. I want to say your blog site imo is the best out of ALL sites and, the most user friendly. Happy Holidays and my best wishes to you in the new year. Thanks sincerely, Afana

  33. In the process of working on a new idea, I realized something important about what FF said regaring marrying the clues to a map.

    “”I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map”f

    He did not say marry each clue to a place on a map. He said marry “the clues to A place” It sounds to me like he is saying that all of the clues fit ONE place on the map. This certainly fits with my new solve ideas.

    I’m rather excited about this new direction. IMO

    • FB,
      Forrest made this comment about the same time as the one you quoted (2/4/17 vs 2/9/2017):

      “Read the clues in my poem over and over and study maps of the Rocky Mountains,” Fenn said via email. “Try to marry the two. The treasure is out there waiting for the person who can make all the lines cross in the right spot.”

      IMO, the significant take-away from these comments is the implied correlation between a map or maps and what Forrest deems a poem clue. Considering both comments, it’s not clear to me he’s defining a relatively small area or a large one. For that, I let the poem be my guide.

      I’m sure you and every serious searcher is aware of this, but I’ll repeat it anyway. It always goes back to a) what we interpret as F’s meaning within each clue, and b) what we deduce from our interpretations, and c) how seamlessly it all fits together. Of course, we must first correctly identify the precise phrases used by F that comprise his nine clues.

      The best in your quest.

      • Oops, soory! In my last paragraph in the 4:10 am comment above, it unintentionally comes across as more than opinion, and I must add that I’m merely stating just that – an opinion. I was not quoting or paraphrasing anything Forrest said or implied.

      • Sometimes when I think of “all the lines crossing”, I think of the place
        known as “Four Corners”, where 4 states (including Colorado and New Mexico) each are [to use the buzzword of the day] contiguous. I think there’s a “monument” (marker) there, which may edify someone who
        likes the word “monument”. And where a monument is, there are usually visitors, that is, people (“warm waters”) who halt there for photos or souvenirs. And there’s a nearby canyon. That’s IT for now. All IMO.

    • Dear Flutter:
      IMO Mr. f gives out clues all the time. He does it so frequently to knock people off guard that are otherwise hanging on his every word.

      Here at the jail house, the prisoners wanted somethin… to do so……Billy bought one of those giant maps of the United States, covering the entire wall. Then I had the prisoners put a pin on the map whenever Fenn has been or said somthin…(like West Yellowstone, Mt or Independance, MO)

      Then with black thread I had them run a line from one pin to each of the rest. Everytime f had been associated with a place we found on the map, I’d have them place a pin and run the lines to all the others. It was crazy and kinda reminded me of puttin up Christmas lights with everythin tangled up and the like. Our creation is coming along, but it kinda looks like a giant spider web!

    • In the Rocky Mtns, Imo, a 30 mile long area can be a place, one place. Distance is thought of different out west.

    • Hey-O, FlutterB

      2017 really was the Year of the Map in ff’s comments.

      That struck me in particular because in the winter of ’16/’17 off-season I’d been pondering visuals along the lines of “is the poem more of a word-landscape-painting, or more of a word-map”?

      In addition to the two good quotes you and Joe noted above, you can add this Q&A from April 5, 2017 to your considerations:

      Q – What’s more important in solving the search, a greater knowledge (“knowlege”) of Toponymy or Geography? ~Chris

      A – I don’t know how Toponymy can help you at all Chris (I had to look that word up). But if you knew the geographic location of each clue it would be a *MAP* to the treasure. f

      (*EMPHASIS* added by me)

      I don’t necessarily agree yet with the *A place* being “ALL clues, ONE place” (in the quote you cited above), but it’s certainly plausible. And the quote I added has just enough ambiguity to also plausibly fit that interpretation.

      In any case, I don’t think the clue location(s) are *too* far apart, but exactly “how far is TOO far” remains one of the Chase’s Big Questions. (I’ve been pretty solidly in the “small-area” camp since the 2016 search season).


      • If everyone starts using the ** I wonder what Ken will *go to* in order to get his *points* across


        • Aw shucks *Lugnuts*. Your attempts of drive-by assassination surely highlight one of the serious issues that society faces today… and unfortunately rear their head from time to time in simple day to day exchanges. Normally I would refrain from poking the bloated carcass… but heck, why not.
          In case you missed it… some folks seemed to be having an exchange that involved the possible definitions of the word nigh… and some of the theories behind what Fenn may have intended in his poem. Seems fairly logical in light of the fact that no one has cracked the clues in the poem and actually retrieved the treasure… doesn’t it? I don’t think anyone crossed over into fantasy mode or pressed any points in a way that would seem rude or demeaning. In fact, the exchanges seemed rather basic and straight… until you felt it necessary to inject your heightened sense of proprietary importance.
          Your approval or disapproval of any comment/s really seems rather arbitrary when one considers the reality of the failure rate amongst ALL searchers…. so maybe you should revisit the entire topic upthread and think about it a bit more.
          For others that may have misunderstood my main point…let me spell it out in more direct terms. *Drawing* lines in the sand and not being willing to accept all of the possibilities with every word in the poem is probably not very wise. Fenn has made it perfectly clear with abundant statements and examples that he does not necessarily follow grammatical rules… all of the time. In fact he has emphasized more than a few times his penchant to give them the middle finger. Again, thanks for addressing my main point Lugnutz and helping to bring it home.

          • Look at this way.
            We have seen all the colors and squeezed some out on the palette but at some time you have to dip the brush and draw a line on the canvass. That’s what it’s all about, drawing a picture if you will. You can’t use all the definitions nor use all the colors for this big picture.

          • What if every time you paint a picture it keeps getting thrown in the garbage bin just because you are not listening and painting what the customer wants but only what you want to paint? Meanwhile, you running out of ink, brushes, canvas, etc. It’s not a matter of trying, is about thinking bla bla blah… Has anybody painted the right picture yet?

          • You know the saying Oz10,
            One man’s garbage is another’s treasure.
            My point is if you never draw a line, you will never know where it ends up.
            I think Fenn said it best with one of his rules to do it than not to do it and regret that you didn’t. Maybe someone can look it up and post it.

        • Ken –

          I’m just pointing out that Jake Kraven is now using your **.

          Why did you start using those?

          Because you wanted to add emphasis.

          If we all start using **, as Jake has, will you then choose a new symbol?

          But since your attacking me, I’ll cut to the chase.

          Accusing me of being self important is ironic.
          You want your words to be seen as important. Thanks so much for all your help

          • lug…like your *obtuse* comment a few moments ago… why didn’t you just come right out and make a remark about the asterisk? Ho hum… because that was not your primary goal.

          • Allow me to simplify Ken and just ask you, as you suggest.

            Why did you start using asterisks bookending words in your posts in 2018?


            Is the effect you wish to receive dimished as others begin co-opting the technique?

          • The answer is rather simple lugnutz… It has nothing to do with me or your supposition. Many times folks do not see/understand what another’s post is referring to exactly…which results in confusing posts, or follow-ups that seem to go off-topic. There are a few that see the sense in highlighting a word to keep on track. Sorry you need to take it to another level entirely…and assume the worst. Before this turns into a train wreck… the second part of your comment/question further earmarks my point exactly.

          • On a site with no *italic* or *bold* font options, the asterisks are a great, elegant way to highlight words or phrases. (Too many ‘demi-quotes’ can be confusing, too many CAPS gets really LOUD).

            I’ve used strings of asterisks here for a long time to introduce a bit of another post that I’m responding to (given that a response sometimes appears far from an original poster’s post). Ken’s use of them as highlights is a useful addition to the toolkit.

            I’m only borrowing ken’s convention, not stealing it. Ken’s one of the straightest shooters here, I bet he don’t mind long as I give ’em back when I’m done.


          • I enjoy seeing the asterisks about as much as I enjoy seeing mentions of Walmart (pretty much the same thing).
            They are both hints that are quiet small. All in my opinion.

    • “Thanks Ron, thoughtful questions. The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the PLACES the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography will probably change before the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.”

      My early searches were for the most part *take it in* type theories. There was still some stomping… but done after taking in the route and needing to be physically at certain waypoints. Times have changed and my view has changed in this regard. I do not disregard the possibility…but believe that *nailing down* the first clue opens the door to the correct path to the treasure. I also believe that the end of the correct route to the treasure will put the finder in a very unique spot/place.

      • Great counterpoint quote, ken, on Flutterbee’s “the clues, *A* PLACE” (singular) question.

    • Hi SHAUN WEBB;

      As you can see, your comment is hanging out to the left. We have no idea who you are replying to – WHO made an excellent point and observation. That is why Dal put the “reply” button below each comment made. Click on this button when you rant to “Reply” to the post just above it, and it will appear below that post – like this one appears below YOUR post – Just a suggestion – It helps keep things neat, and we know to whom you paid your compliment – JDA

  34. Possibility???

    “Effort is worth” = Fort Worth
    “Brave” = Comanche
    “In the wood” = in a wood carving

    • I saw some photos of some wood carving: FF carved into some trees. This
      reminded me of the big F I saw. I have a hunch Forrest has seen this big F.

      • It would be rich if FF spent 20 years carving on a log and made an Egyptian style coffin for himself. Or since he knows how to do screw on lids in bronze …he may have designed something piece by piece and made it over the past 20 years. And if in bronze he showed in one book how he can make bronze look like cloth….then maybe also bronze could look like wood.
        Or a big jar.
        Or if he prepared a mountain man cache pit lined by wood and furs.

        I doubt if he did any of the above, but it would be really creative if he did something like that.

  35. Fellow Chasers –

    The introduction of he word Gauche by Zaphod affords us the perfect opportunity to discuss word usage and meaning without offending.

    Let’s explore the Rive Gauche in Paris. Shall oui?

    Rive Gauche translates as West Bank. The Seine travels more or less westerly through Paris. So the Rive Gauche is actually the South Bank or the area to the south of the bank. But we aren’t actually talking abut the geographic area when we refer to Rive Gauche. We are actually referring to a time when this is where the artists, philosophers and writers lived.

    When it comes to Nigh it does not matter that hundreds of years ago a handful of men referred to the lead horse as the nigh horse. The question for us is Can we tell what Fenn intended from context. I would argue that if Fenn understood that Nigh could mean left he added Drawing to exclude that meaning.

    But what do I know? Next time you are in Paris just drive west until you find the Rive Gauche…

    • Now I’m confused again, Lugs. lol
      Which bank are you referring to? Bank of the South or Chase bank?

      Anyhow! you brought up the idea; ‘We are actually referring to a time when this is where the artists, philosophers and writers lived.’
      Which Nigh can also mean of a place in ‘time’; *near in time or space*.. Which changes the idea of what “end” might refer to.
      So far, with all the bantering about nigh meanings, we have;
      time, near, a side, short, approach{ing} just to name a few.. which anyone of those meanings can be utilized depending on how the context is meant, and how other words relating to the line, sentence, entire poem is also needed and understood by their different definitions and usages.

    • Lugnutz: Brilliant! You have cut to the crux of the matter. CONTEXT!

      “I would argue that if Fenn understood that Nigh could mean left he added Drawing to exclude that meaning.”

      Exactly. “Nigh” by itself can mean many things, as we’ve bantered about endlessly. But “drawing nigh” is quite another matter.

      • Zap…. Knowing that Fenn wrote this poem to hide clues that give directions to his hidden treasure…. are you willing to state for a fact that you know exactly what the *context* of any line in the poem is?

        • Ken

          What’s the problem here?

          Do you need nigh to mean left?

          After Jake Faulker retrieves the TC, no one will ever use nigh for anything other then near again.


          • give it a rest Lug… I don’t need a thing. It would be nice to just converse with folks that want to thrash things around without this jive.

          • Ken –

            You attacked Zap, asking if he knows what Fenn intended.

            But Zap’s not doing anything different than anyone else.

            So it follows that there is something in this discussion that irks you.

            You seem to need, or want, to protect something and it’s got your hairs up.

            You don’t ask the Sherif or Seeker or Charlie or Frank or OS if they know Fenn’s mind.

            Your a.good egg but something clearly has scrambled your yoke…

          • Lugs ~ ‘You attacked Zap, asking if he knows what Fenn intended.’

            Ken is a big boy an answer that for himself. But are you jumping the gun by calling it an ‘attack’
            I just asked the same of ken in regards to his post… i’m I attacking ken now?

            Geezuss the man used * * to emphasis something… {that’s the way I took it} I have done the same. We’re all typing our thoughts, sometime we need to be creative to put emphases on something. I have use ‘ ‘ and { } see above example… it’s not always easy to get our points across when typing on a blog.
            That’s the same as complaining we shouldn’t use BIWWWH or TIITCD…

            Man, It’s gonna be a cold long winter.

          • Lug…I believe you must be drinking too much city water. My comment to Zap is fairly basic and surely not an attack of any sort. It is a simple question… to the point… in response to his comment that seems to imply that the *context* is a known. As evidenced by failure by all… it is clear that the *context* of anything in the poem is not known.

          • Thanks for the love Lugzy,
            Great diversion to keep them on the defensive and away from research but you will have to keep it up for months till I can snatch the chest from the unwise.

        • Ken,

          I’m not sure, in all honesty, we can know the context up front. Although I sure folks will think they know it.
          My point is… shouldn’t the poem’s information lean towards the “exact” context, and we need to put bias ideas of context on the back burner until a theory comes to light?

          When I sit and ponder what the poem is relaying… a method of any kind [ be it botg only for each clue, or viewing, any method of how to physically proceed etc. ] is the last thing I think about.
          I’m looking for the ideas that fenn has implied. Basically;
          ~Difficult but not impossible.
          ~Certainty of the location beforehand, for the path to be direct.
          ~Why didn’t I think of that?
          ~What took me so long?
          ~ need the ingredients in the correct order.
          ~ if you don’t have the first clue nailed down, stay home. you have notta to go on.

          And, ~ if all the information to find the chest is in the poem… the words in the poem need to known for their right usage ‘chosen’ to hopefully get the idea of the “exact” context of what is being relayed.

          The simplistic idea of; this is a treasure hunt doesn’t float in my book. You can replace Treasure Hunt with going Grandma’s house or any other purpose… it doesn’t matter.

          Do you think we can truly know exactly what the context of the poem is, prior to understanding what the words mean in the poem meant to hold the clues to get to Grandma’s house?

          Zap can answer for himself. And you asked a great question.

          I’m curious to your idea of ‘exactly what the context is’ and/or how we know what it is, or even, where we find out what the context is.

        • Hi Ken — like everyone else, I can only guess at Forrest’s intent with any poem line. But I gauge the reasonableness of various possibilities against Forrest’s claims about the poem being straightforward, and that it wasn’t “written with the idea of fooling anyone.” (Thus my insistence that the “take it in” line would run afoul of his claims of not fooling anyone if it meant to admire the view.)

          I’m less hard-headed about drawing nigh possibly meaning left, provided that it ALSO means drawing near. In fact, such a double-entendre seems quite reasonable, given Forrest’s apparent penchant for dichotomies and polarities. Why not have a word pulling double-duty if it works? (And yes, as it happens, both definitions work fine for my solution.)

          • Zap…thanks for the reasonable answer to my simple question. Let’s not forget also that Fenn has muttered the words implying that folks don’t see things the way he does, along with other similar implications. So… a spade in fact may or not be a spade…so to speak? Yes?
            My question was not really meant to put anyone on the spot, nor was it demeaning in nature… or because my yolk is broken. The purpose really was to emphasize that drawing any conclusive lines in the sand with regards to anything poem related seems rather foolish in nature.

            Here are a couple of mundane excerpts from somewhere…. have a great day.

            * Poets don’t always follow the rules, which is why poetry is attractive to writers who are especially creative, rebellious, and enjoy coloring outside the lines.*

            *Grammar rules, particularly spelling and punctuation, are nothing more than a creative tool for poets who choose to dismiss the rules altogether.”

          • Zap,
            In a few of your post you repeat or imply;
            ~“take it in” line would run afoul of his claims of not fooling anyone if it meant to admire the view.’

            Why are you adding “admire”?
            It wouldn’t matter if the view was of a garbage dump… its the viewing, observing, gazing part that is, in this idea, important. The scenery is not in call for a personal judgement of it.

            You ask for a possible context to the lines BIWWW ATIITCD. Are we not looking for a reference of what WWH refers to? Could it be whatever that reference refers to is what goes in the canyon and we need to view just that?

            There are many ways to interpret this poem. That’s part of the challenge.

          • Seeker, I was just using “admire” as an example. Perhaps “absorb” would have been a better choice so that it does not convey a requirement that the view you’re taking in is necessarily awe-inspiring. (Counterpoint: if the view is of a mine tailings pond or a city dump, I’m not sure “take it in” would be the words I would choose!)

            Doesn’t matter to me if you want it to mean to stay put and observe — that’s your choice. I’m just saying that to my satisfaction I have eliminated that possibility from my own considerations.

            In the past I have mentioned triage, and this is an instance where I apply it. If a would-be searcher chooses to retain a list of all possibilities (however remote) for each parameter in the Chase, the number of combinations grows geometrically, and you will quickly find yourself in decision paralysis staring at a wall covered in spaghetti that has been thrown at it.

          • Zap,

            I can argue the point, that it would eliminate many areas, prior to going anywhere [botg]. The reader might have a better understanding of the surrounding landscape IF the method is viewing is correct.
            No need to travel around a blockage, such as a mountain, hill, bend in a canyon, be on the opposite side of a forest or woodland. The clues would need to be seen.

            The disadvantage would be, not knowing the elevation factor [10,200 – 5000′ doesn’t narrow down much, it only gives us limits not to go to ]. Obviously the higher the more to see, but that might not ring true to the actual location. Could this idea fall in lines with certainty of the location beforehand, line of thinking.. at least, in part, of the that idea.
            Stomping doesn’t eliminate any area at all. In fact, two searcher can have the same clues references, same location to start out at. The observational method will tell if it could work, the stomping method ‘has to be done’ no matter what. So which method eliminates more area, beforehand?
            [Regardless of which method we personally like]

            But this comment is only in-regards to this theory of ~ ‘the number of combinations grows geometrically.’
            No it doesn’t… if the theory is correct, it helps eliminate many wrong, perfect solves that can’t be wrong because everything fit, idea.

            This is where the ATF’s can come in handy. IF a theory has me crossing a river with a 20 anchor on my back… its gone. If i’m on a reservation, private property, no matter how good the solve fit in my little pea brain.. its gone. And I personally am not going ‘into’ a canyon from the top of it… if fenn is not, why would I.
            So, I need to know how the idea of “take it in the canyon..” works to keep those ATF’s and many others, as true as possible.

            Otherwise, why are we here chatting and asking for scrap bones if we don’t attempt to keep them true to the poem?

            Oh! sure the poem should do that, right? Well, I’ll ask again, have ya read any solve [posted on any site] that kept the searcher at WWH?
            IF the theory of observation is the way to go… thus far… it kills every single solve out there. That’s what folks don’t like.

          • Seeker,

            You said to Zap, “No need to travel around a blockage, such as a mountain, hill, bend in a canyon, be on the opposite side of a forest or woodland. The clues would need to be seen.”

            I would almost guarantee you can not see past mountains, a bend in a canyon even if it’s on the opposite side in the RM in order to see the clues, no matter how high you are and impossible to see at a lower elevation, even if your in Kansas or Nebraska. Remember the chest is in the RM and I honestly don’t think all of the clues can be seen if you are taking in the view physically.

            You said to Zap, “And I personally am not going ‘into’ a canyon from the top of it… if fenn is not,”

            F only said that he wasn’t going down and and up a canyon twice to hide the chest, {the gist}. F never said he wouldn’t go down the canyon once. Maybe you should read the quote again, you know where it’s at.

            This is exactly where your “view” thought is wrong, you’ve choked yourself off right at the very beginning of the poem. Think realistically not imaginary.

            Just Say’n

          • Seeker: I get that you find that your approach, not having been tried (at least publicly), has the inherent merit that it hasn’t already failed 100,000 times. But how are *you* going to implement it? I’m having a hard time imagining the scenario under which you would ever put BOTG. Don’t you have a Catch-22 situation? It sounds like in order to be at the right spot, you need to identify it in advance, and yet to *know* it’s the right spot it seems to me that your theory requires a physical presence in order to “take it in” and observe all the things you need to observe. How are you going to select your WWWH in advance?

            You have to admit one thing in favor of the stomping method: it seems to have gotten multiple groups within 500 feet of the chest within only a few years. I’m not sure how long you’ve been in the Chase — 6 years, 7? — and yet in all that time you haven’t found a starting point that you like enough to commit to investigating it in person. What are your criteria for transitioning from armchairing to a physical presence? Would a solid WWWH be enough for you? (Speaking for myself, the answer would be absolutely not.)

          • Hi Ken: yes, Forrest has admitted to “twisting” words, misusing them, even making some up — but he has also (at times) caveated that with the excuse that it shouldn’t matter as long as the reader knows what he means (e.g. writing diabolically instead of diametrically). So he does seem to express an interest in accurately getting his points across and not being misunderstood. Yet I think we all know that he also likes to be mischievous at times. Seeker just has a different dividing line than I for the extent to which Forrest’s mischievousness is allowed to creep into subterfuge.

            “My question was not really meant to put anyone on the spot, nor was it demeaning in nature…”

            Just for the record, I didn’t take it that way at all. 😉

            “The purpose really was to emphasize that drawing any conclusive lines in the sand with regards to anything poem related seems rather foolish in nature.”

            Well, we all have lines in the sand. I don’t see too many people searching in Utah or Idaho these days — even though there is nothing to prevent WWWH from being in either of those two states. Perhaps I place too much emphasis on insisting that Forrest won’t deliberately mislead or deceive. But my reasoning there is that if I’m willing to accept that he occasionally fibs, misdirects, or tells white lies, then it’s a slippery slope toward questioning whether he hid a chest at all.

          • CharlieM,
            Your first point is what is said. If your view is obstructed that particular clue or clues would be wrong.. in a observational solve theory. it would matter how high anyone is. I mean, in elevation.
            Your second point is wrong as well.
            fenn said a 80 yr old is not going down and up a canyon… never mentioned “twice” in that comment. I get it though.. it’s hard sometime to keep which comment say what.
            Anyways, the question was ‘chase related’ and about who else knew where the chest was hidden. Seriously, do I need to hold ya’ll hands… you know the comment and my posted has nothing to do with fenn ‘outside’ the chase to what he does or doesn’t do. And I never mentioned the word twice in my comment.
            So I guess your point is; fenn tells us don’t go where an 80 yrs old can’t, is not about fenn either – chase related? or states in the book at age almost eighty it was time to act?
            So, the 80 yr old who’s not going into a canyon [ chase related ] isn’t about fenn -?- whether ‘twice’ or only ‘once’…?

            Who here is really thinking ~ ‘… realistically not imaginary.’??

          • Zap,
            I stopped reading your response when ya started all the whining about no BOTG. That sad excuse, for all your failed attempts, it’s boring. You make an assumption that the theory I presented may have been tried 100,000 times. Show me one post. Just one, from any of the dozens of sites related to the chase that this method was tested and posted.

            So I’ll post again, I don’t know what WWH refers to, and I’m honest enough to admit it… And I’m gonna go with fenn’s warning; If you don’t have the first clue nailed down, stay home.

            In fact, I hope everyone goes out and tries any idea of a solve they want… **and 100,000’s have**… without coming back with lame excuses or epiphanies they got it all correct now…
            Those folks tell their tale of the adventure, and try something else.

            You might want to consider the idea of; if you can’t find the chest, go back to WWH, as to; go back to the first clue and think some more…and not, that the clues get harder and harder.

          • Seeker,

            Here is what you are completely ignoring, F never got out of his car until he hid the tc and that was near the blaze. He most certainly can go down the canyon once even at 80 in a car, or a map. How do you think he got to the first clue, he most certainly wouldn’t go up high on foot to view everything.

            Can you explain how he got to wwwh to begin with. F said he went twice with two loads from his car, I‘m very positive he never walked the complete route on foot. By the way in order to get to hoB, NPFTM and hlawh there is travel all the way to the blaze, remember there are no short cuts, he followed all of the clues.
            The blaze is way after wwwh.

            I don’t buy the tc and even the clues can just be viewed and not go down the canyon physically to retrieve the chest.

            I think there are too many twists being applied, the poem is straight forward and in plain English as F has said. What is dumbfounding is no one listens.

            Just Say’n

          • You know, Seeker, you pretend that you want to have a debate about an issue, but apparently the only person’s posts worth reading are your own. You won’t even extend the courtesy of reading past the first sentence of a cogent response. The proof? You thought the 100,000-searcher comment was directed at YOUR approach, when quite clearly it was the opposite. You are apparently so sure you know what I’m going to write that you just scan a few words and then fill in the blanks.

            “I stopped reading your response when ya started all the whining about no BOTG.”

            What whining? I don’t give a rat’s * that you haven’t been BOTG. On the contrary, I think it would be idiotic for you to waste the time and money to do so at this stage. No, what I was asking (if you’d been patient enough to actually read my post) was about the circumstances under which your situation might change. As I wrote, it seemed to me like you are caught in a Catch-22, but maybe you see a way out of it, and if so, I’m curious how you see that unfolding.

            Don’t attempt to read between the lines — there’s no hidden agenda here. I’m honestly just curious. I can’t imagine that you’re going to spend the remainder of your life pondering possibilities, never putting one idea to the test.

            I get that you don’t currently have a WWWH that you like. All I’m asking is how you envision that situation being resolved. And the reason I’m asking that is that you have stated your idea that there must be something important to observe on site that tells you you’ve nailed down WWWH. You see the Catch-22, don’t you? The only resolution, then, is that you must foresee a means by which you will be able to nail down your WWWH prior to actually going there.

          • Nice to see you guys go back and forth without victory.
            When people look back at this thread many years down the road after the treasure is found, they will realize you guys never offered a place on a map and were egotized in your way of thinking while there are places on a map that lead to the treasure.

          • Jake,

            I hope you weren’t referring to me as well, if you are I truly have offered a place on a map, in fact I’ve done it twice,
            and no ego here. Look at yourself, an egotist with not much of anything to say except barbs.

          • My first REALLY! Is directed to Dal. Please fix the reply dilemma. And my second REALLY! reply is to Zaphod 12-16-18 @ 3:44pm. Have you come so far to reach questioning Mr. Fenns integrity? I’m literally reading your bottom line.

          • Hi Afana: no, no, quite the opposite! I have no doubt Forrest hid the treasure chest, otherwise I wouldn’t have spent 3 1/2 years trying to solve his poem. What I’m saying is that anyone who thinks Forrest fibs, prevaricates, stretches the truth, or tells white lies about some things in the Chase probably shouldn’t be looking for the chest. Because once you’re okay letting him lie about one thing, you might as well doubt everything.

          • Hi Zaphod, Once again, where’s that… reply button? way up thread, geeze! I apologize for my delayed replies. I don’t subscribe and, I type at a tortoise pace, which puts me way behind in conversation.

  36. in my mind – in the poem – nigh means left – ff says that the poem is all you need to help you find the treasure chest – so where would I go when I get to in the wood – if in the wood is a large area – you would like to know where to start looking – I would go to the left side of in the wood- so my efforts would be worth the cold (north ) and to the left

  37. Is it my imagination or did Google update the satellite pics on GE and G Maps?
    The street views seem to be 2018 now.

    • On Google Maps they typically just show the current year as the latest copyright year. In GE you ca still get the image date (and it shows the copy right of the current year). Some areas are due for an update (I had read they try to do it every 4 years) and some are rolling updates (my current address area got update not long after we moved in). In general all updates are rolling updates and some are on there for a considerable amount of time before they become available to us, the end user (a lot of processing).

      • The copyright date is not the date the sat pics were taken.
        I’ve noticed that some sat pics have been updated in YNP and show much more detail than before and when you move the view around the dates change dramatically including moving in elevation.
        Some 2007 all the way to 2018 depending where and what elevation you view.

        Street view pics are the same but some are over 10 years old and some 2018 and in between depending where you view on that road.

        Much better detail with the updates.

        • Jake,
          you are right, G maps has been all over the board.
          For the 3 yrs. prior, my place
          both sat and steet showed 2014 , but differenr months. Then for some reason over the last 3 months, the sat view went backwards to about 2008, but the street view remained @ 2014. This previous week the Sat view updated to 2016.

        • Jake, if you are searching in YNP, I wish you luck. How many
          BOTG search trips have you made?

          • Not searching YNP, I think it’s “no place for the meek”.
            I did search in the park before but came to the conclusion it was way to crowded. I think some of the earlier clues are in the park though.

            Not many trips as I only go once or twice a year for a week or so since 2015 so I’m not one of the 200 or 500 footers.
            Some BOTG trips were very short scouting adventures and cursed GE. Some BOTG were just observing to see if the stars aligned.

          • Hi Jake – FWIW, I think you have been within one half mile of the chest. I base my gut feeling on knowing some of the places you have traveled.

          • HMA,
            That would mean you know where the chest is.
            Just spit it out or email me, you got my email.

  38. We got some armchair queens pussy footing around with everything under the sun and then we have those that have everything figured out and whatever they post here only relates to their solve and know where the chest is, in their opinion with a “wait and see” attitude.

    From one spectrum of the rainbow to the other, and still no gold. Just a bunch of bold and it’s getting old. I fold.

    • Jake, Thru the grape soda line,. it seems you are considered tio be a frontrunner for the find.
      KFC has come out with fire logs that are supposed to smell like
      fried chicken when burning.
      Sooooo, in the offer of
      friendship, I would like to send you some for your camping trips into bear turf. You are welcome.

      • I’d think that a nice fedora breaded with the colonel’s 11 secret herbs and spices would be a more thoughtful gift for a chapeauvore who has everything.

        BTW someone cracked the secret on which Herbs and Spices, http://time.com/5015515/kfc-viral-tweet-reward/
        When I found out what the Spices actually are it made me glad that I stay away from KFC.

      • JW: I thought I read a couple decades ago that someone did an analysis of KFC’s coating to try to uncover the identity of those secret 11 herbs and spices. The only things identifiable, as I recall, were salt, pepper, flour and MSG. Not an herb in the bunch. Even if the “11” is actually in binary, it still overshoots the reality. 😉

    • So Jake, you make it seem like it’s a crime to even armchair to take an effort to try and figure out where the tc is. How about you go get it so you can prove anyone is wrong.

      We already know what is going on, your in the same boat as the rest of us. I think you just like to be heard without anything helpful. Narcissistic comes to mind.

      I’m just grumbling cause I want to!

  39. I hope Zinke saves my hometown like he saved Yellowstone


    “In October, Zinke approved a similar 20-year mining moratorium on 30,000 acres of federal land north of Yellowstone Park, in his home state of Montana. Two mining companies wanted to drill for gold, and local business owners and conservationists led the opposition on the grounds that mining could harm wildlife, water quality and the region’s tourism-based economy.”

    • Apparently, he’s leaving his post so that he can pursue his chase for TC full time. He won’t be ‘saving’ much anymore.

  40. To me, From “begin it where”, to “put in below the hob”, the poem has an open feeling. At, “from there” onward, the poem has a narrow cramped feeling.

    • I believe you are right about that, James. Almost like its a hurried or rushed part of the poem. In my opinion, it’s because once you are at HOB, you are almost there. The rest of the clues are within close proximity.

      • Hi Veronica, Yes, I agree about the close proximity. IMO, there is so much in the poem that is subjective, I would be hesitant to leave the area around the hob.

        • Yes, exactly. That’s why I have been searching the same small radius for a while now.
          ( that , or I need to re-evaluate myself) lol

      • Veronica S,

        I disagree that “once you are at HOB, you are almost there”.

        I will say that you still have a long ways to go from hoB.

        Just Say’n

        • You shouldn‘t go to, pass by nor be at hoB when you want to be on the path to the chest IMHO… but I‘ve been looking for shortcuts all the time… so don‘t listen…

          • TLo,
            HOB is where I start a slight direction change.
            But I like your style. You aren’t trying to cram your opinion as if it’s fact. None of us know and it will be interesting at the end.

          • I’m (sorta) “listening”, and hearing y’all good. But right now
            I don’t want to be on that path, as there’s too much snow
            for a BOTG search. All IMO.

          • Veronica: in my solve, which is very simple and straight forward, almost… stupid… maybe even… childish… there is also a change of direction, but like the poem says… it happens below the hoB… the following stanza does nothing but confirm that new direction…

            No I am not claiming any part of my solve being a fact! Who am I?

            The only fact I know about my solve is I have to travel 4000 Miles to put BOTG so the number of tries is very limited… as is my progress…

            I think I‘ll be back mid june… maybe a little later… it‘s gonna be a looong winter for me!


          • TLo-wow… 4,000 miles! I thought I was bad at 1500 one way.
            Actually, my possible solve is very simple as well. I didn’t have to alter or tweak any of the clues. They just fit . When I would get from point A to point B,the next clue was just there. Makes me wonder if we will be bumping into each other come spring.
            Best of luck to ya, TLo

        • CharlieM, when I say almost, I’m @ less than a mile ( give or take)
          I could be wrong and you could be right. Nothing left to do but to haul my cookies back there and look some more.

  41. I just read that a 102 year old lady parachuted out of an airplane. So “only go where you think an 80 year old man would go” (paraphrase) is a bit ironic wouldn’t you say?

  42. Does anyone know if FF is a fan of The Simpsons (Marge & Homer)?…. found some quirky linkage.

    I’ve been touring rabbit holes in the Preface again, and recently posted about that WIMPY remark, then I moved on. But a detail from it linked up with a detail concerning Eisenhower who is mentioned on the next page — just ABOVE some design defected warm waters. (it’s also linked to a canasta in the Cody Museum collection, but never mind that one now). Ike is my middle link between Popeye & Homer.

    FF has been associated with other cartoons & cartoonists Marvel comics etc., and there are several Eisenhower/Simpson stories Even the Springfield bookstore has an appropriate name…. “Books, Books, and Additional Books! But it was a self-help audio book (listen good) that advised Homer and Marge to bathe together. If it’s a rabbit hole, at least have fun.

  43. Zaphod, I’m really tired of the dysfunctional reply buttons, so here’s my reply to your 12-16-18 @ 7:20pm. IMO you get it. Like Mr. Fenn said in his epitaph, ” I wish I could have lived to do, the things I was attributed to.” Can you tell me what state your searching ? Just for your opinion, check my post on revised OUAW. It’s almost the last post. I’d like to know what you think.

    • Oh and there is always an original post and up to three layers or levels of answers… if you reply to the OP you are on Level 1… if you teply to a level 1 answer you are level 2!
      Once you reach level 3 your post cannot be replied to… the reason is that level 4 or 5 replies would be too slim on smartphones!
      But if you reply to the last level 2 post your post will be displayed directly under the last level 3 post!

      You can count the vertical lines on the left side to recognize the level of an answer!

      Hope that helped…

  44. All of titles of the chapters in TTOTC are important to my solution. I have struggled with Gypsy Magic though. I previously thought that it referred to the mineral gypsum. But, I just googled Gypsy Magic and saw that it is a book of spells. What else is a book of spells? – A dictionary! I now think this title is telling us HOW to solve the poem. I know a lot won’t agree, and that’s ok. I’m just posting information that I came across in case it is helpful to someone else.

    • Nice JBL, before I read to the next line of “What else is a book of spells” I immediately thought dictionary. That isn’t the only hint (imo) towards using a dictionary from Forrest:

      From MW:
      “*Success is an omniscient guru. f (Posted November 11th, 2016)”

      The tie in comes from Googling “omniscient” which nets you this:

      knowing everything.
      “the story is told by an omniscient narrator”
      synonyms: all-knowing, all-wise, all-seeing
      “he thought I was some kind of omniscient guru”

      Which suggest, at least to me, that the online dictionary on Google is a great source. I did try seeing if the example sentences would help on other words but didn’t have much luck on that path (not that I tried every word).

        • Sadly no, which in itself is a bit surprising as Forrest misquotes tend to get jumped on pretty quickly by the legacy searchers. The closest I can find (and utilizing Tarryscant.com) is this one:

          “Many searchers told me the general area in which they are looking. I didn’t read the long emails, but in most of the short ones I looked for key words that would get my attention. Several did this year and I hope my lack of an email response was not taken as a clue.”

          source: http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-and-weekly-words-from-forrest-fenn-roundup-for-the-year/

          Otherwise I can’t find anything really related to that term (SB 91 maybe as Jerry Maribal was completely blind (at age 110)). Checking back, I still haven’t gotten a reply from sikestone (here is the link to that comment if anyone missed it):


          • Thanks, good answer. I feel like I can hear f’s voice pretty well in a comment- these ears, you know- and it sounds like something he would say-

          • I think that if F made a comment regarding a searcher being legally blind, may be because he/she can’t see so he/she wouldn’t have eyes (I’s).

          • Maybe he’s inferring that a referee should be able to spot it. Or… maybe he’s just being a wiseacre.

            But after delving further, that goes for “sike”ston too! : )

      • Hi ID,
        My interpretation of that saying is “Success is an all seeing = eye = I expert. So you must be an I expert. My key word is I, so of course that is the way I (eye) SEE it. 🙂

        I used your initials because ID = id = part of the ego or part of I.

        • That actually was a part of my name choice.

          Great ideas JBL, so kind of like the pyramid (triangle since it is 2D) on the back of a buck.

    • JBL… Heres what I get from the Gypsy story:
      1. head in window: like head-in-the-clouds…be alert to imagination -dreams -emerging ideas. Lids closed, eyes open.
      2. ‘get even’ with dad… & other authorities, bend the rules if it isn’t too cold (safety first)
      3. Hear distant sounds —bells, whistles, music (follow a subtle trail)
      4. Go down (go North)
      5. hide under cover ….. the end place is NIGH-T (near but hidden)
      6. Smoke & dance: ritual symbols of celebration & spiritual communication with the dead, the ancients, the heroes, the stars, the gods.

      I’m in the camp of” “The poem is all you need …. Is not all the truth”

      IMO>…….When Fenn made the decision to INDULGE in this this Great Treasure Adventure, his poem needed an accompanying platform… a book of tales. From his computer stored autobiography, he ‘founded’ suitable “memoirs”, and, some iirresistible glggles in placing many HINTY embellishments as they naturally fit into the tales.

      The poem is an Express Train, the book is a Local. Grab the bananas. …IMO

      • OS2;

        I look at the Gypsy story a bit differently:

        : “Sometimes when it wasn’t cold, (A hint to search in the summer?)
        I’d get even with my father for switching me by jumping out of the window by my bed and walking down to the cemetery, which was a block north (Some distance north) of our house.
        It took guts to go in there (Yet another hint about it being a safe {not dangerous} place)
        when it was dark with no moon. (a hint that where Indulgence is – it may be dark – Take a flashlight and a sandwich???).
        I still remember the sense of accomplishment I felt when I sat on some dead guy’s grave marker (Another mention of a grave marker like the one for the French soldiers???).
        I wasn’t even afraid. (Another hint to not be afraid?)
        A kid really has time to think in a graveyard.” Remember – “Take a sandwich and a flashlight.” f
        Just how I read it – JDA

          • Glad to ride with you on the local… sorry you missed your stop.

            How the heck can anybody “know how Fenn thinks” (as if such a thing were really possible) unless they are intimate with his word & topic revelations? ‘Just the poem’, my arse.

      • Hi OS2,
        Thanks for your analysis of the chapter. My take on the chapter is – …steam engines PUFF, engineers BLOW their AIR HORNS. F says he can still hear it when the wind is out of the east. In my neck of the woods, the wind doesn’t blow from the east very often. Is it an aberration? (I don’t know.) These are just more instances of weather/air movement. Part of my solution run alongside a railroad track, so that is important to me. Also, F is actually describing a blaze within a circle. Is that relevant? It doesn’t fit my solution, but it sure sounds relevant to me as I just re-read the chapter.

        • I like your ‘blaze within a circle’, JBL. Makes several tenuous links for me, i’ll Have to think on it more. Puff & blow, not so much. Maybe I should check out Eric Sloane’s weather book … FF might be giving a nod to his old friend. Seems weird he only mentions him in the Preface.

      • OS ~’I’m in the camp of” “The poem is all you need …. Is not all the truth”

        This my seem trivial to some but, the comment was; all the information to find the chest is in the poem. Not so much; the poem is all you need. There is a big difference… just sayin.

        • Well, Seeker… The poem is not all the information I need, guess I am more tortoise than hare. Though, it seems to me that you leapers and sprinters still seem to be out here in the desert with me.

          I stand by my concept, we testudines cant retract our heads back into our shells. But thanks for the info anyway.

          • You miss understood… My point is the original comment is being changed by bloggers.

            Fenn never said; all you need is the poem.. in those words. Although, many have placed those words in quotes.

          • Miss Understood can’t always tell when comments quoted without quote marks and attribution initials are true quotes or merely a poster stating his interpretation of another’s quote for her misunderstanding.

            Sorry Seeker, My intent is not to offend, I couldn’t resist the giggle…… just like I think FF might have entertained himself and embellished his tales with more than a few hints & giggles.

            R we OK?

          • Here’s another couple of good lines…
            “There’s some misinformation out there. (skipped some fluff) … so maybe we need to define the terms. Does hidden mean in plain sight? (skipped the buried sepulchered blah blah). What does the word blaze in the poem mean? (skipped the horse trees fire stuff) And what about water high? Does it mean deep, or higher than normal? (skipped the intrigue and mystery and getting folks out in the mountains). No one has any secret *information*that will take them to the hiding place. It’s in the poem for all to see.”

            I’ll stay in the tortoise camp…or like Goofy said… It’s not a sprint, it’s a marathon.

          • Here is one point, too many are mostly relying too much on TTOTC and TFTW to find answers for the poem and not enough focus on the poem all by its self. Relying on Q & A and ATF comments also are being used in the same way.

            The Cheat Sheet does have reliable information to aid the searcher for things not to do.Yep I’m a purist when it comes to the poem as it contains the directions needed to find the tc, except the first clue.

            As far as the subtle clues in TTOTC I haven’t put much effort in finding them as the main focus is with the poem, that in its self has all of the answers when one has nailed down wwwh, where the first clue is and that is found through analyzing, research and learning, this also applies to the rest of the clues.

            So Seeker for me your statement, “The poem is all you need …. Is not all the truth”, at least for me regardless of miss quotes, for me is still, all one needs is the poem married to a map. Of course that is IMO.

            Just Say’n

  45. I think my last post was moderated away for not including a reference. So, here you go. From Jenny’s new book. For all of you arguing about directions. …..
    If you truly know where it’s hidden, you don’t need the directions. f

  46. Just for the record, IMO there are double meanings, sometimes more, intended for many lines in the poem. Mr. Fenn is using 2 or more. Lets look at the hot topic line “The end is ever drawing nigh” My understanding is that The end has 3 meanings, ever-2, drawing-3, nigh-2 and, He’s intentionally using more than one meaning to a word and, they fit together to express what He’s saying. It’s Impressive. I can’t expound any further.

    • PS Where’d everybody go? IMO I’m not implying anything that Mr. Fenn hasn’t already said. He references (paraphrasing) being like an architect / drawing a map blueprint or, needing all the ingredients to make a cake, though Imo, his cake is multi-level with lots of embellishment. In the end we all still need to use his literal map/poem to find that 10x10x5″ spot in the Rocky Mountains.

    • Afana,

      Sure some of the words do have double meanings, but the context of what is being said determines the proper usage..

      • CharlieM,

        Isn’t the context determined by the words used and their meanings? Any of their meanings?
        Do we not have a reference that somewhere that fenn went alone? And are we not attempting to know just that?

        Meaning ~in or to what place or position.
        “where do you live?”
        Meaning ~at, in, or to which (used after reference to a place or situation).
        “I first saw him in Paris, where I lived in the early sixties”

        Where in the first meaning and example, is of a place present.
        Where in the second meaning and example, is of a place in the past… Where is a place in time… in the sixties in the example. Other wise for the example to be of the present time / tense, it would read; I first saw him in Paris, where I live.

        Using the meaning of where as a place in the past or of time… “Begin it where… can mean a place in time past.
        Does that not change the “context” to be different than a present tense? and change the idea of how the poem might be read as. [ at least in order to ‘decipher’ a clue or clues ].
        Which also falls in the thought of fenn… “thinking down the road” and future searchers / readers of the poem have the same advantage as readers today. At least in-regards to starting with the first clue…

        • Seeker,

          In context as to “where warm waters halt” IMO is merely a place and has nothing to do with the past. You are using “where” out of context of what is being said. I need to remind you the poem is the directions to finding the tc in the present. Are we not told to “marry the poem to a map? A map is of actual places and how to get there, IMO to think otherwise is folly

          • The poem will ‘lead’ one to the chest.
            Which can mean with intent for others to follow by.

            There’ is not mentioned of how the word “where” is to be read as, we need to figure it out. I’ll add that the poem starts in past tense. I explained how “where” by definitions and their examples [straight from a dictionary] can be of present and past involving time… you can’t say it wrong.

            A map is a map, the more detailed a map the better if you have the “right map”…. What details are we looking for?
            You choose to use where in present tense only, and that is an option, but it is also of past tense as well… So IF a person in 3009 was doing the challenge. By your standards they should only use a map from that time period.. right?
            The doesn’t say 2009 or 1909 nor 3009 or beyond. However, the past can be implied by ‘where” in a past time.

            Not unlike; once upon a time vs. once upon a while… begin it vs. begin it where. fenn never said this poem was only meant for present day searchers, in fact, he stated he wanted to influence future generations. Does that not fall in-line with the idea of “thinking down the road… and people don’t understand that” ?

            If I said; begin it at Plymouth Rock [for example] I that not a place, and possibly a place in time?
            Or for another example; begin it where the ice age ends… would that not be considered the past… we still don’t know what WWH refers to… even if it is found on a map in the present or the future.

        • Seeker,

          Well yea, ever thing has a past, isn’t yesterday the past? Past = age or was, which has nothing to do with what is out there geographically at the time the chest was hidden. Things have changed since but geography is pretty much the same.

          The only two stanza’ that are in the past are 1 & 5 the rest is merely to places or things that can be found on a map.

          Of course that’s IMO

          Seems to me your overly complicating, of course that’s me say’n and no rudeness intended. Not much imagination is needed after wwwh. Just as a friendly suggestion, focus more on the first clue and not worry about what comes after it. I’m not telling you what do or anyone else, heck no harm no fowl.

          I do understand where your coming from for your theory and point of view. You say how you feel and no harm for debating. I’m just trying to think straight forward, is that not what F said about the poem being straight forward? [gist]

          I’m having fun debating

          Just Say’n

          • I’m not taking anything you say as rude or otherwise.. lol we’re just BSing. But you said; The only two stanza’ that are in the past are 1 & 5 the rest is merely to places or things that can be found on a map.

            That is merely an assumption. The “where” can give stanzas 2 3 a past tense and of a post time period. It’s our job to ‘learn’ that… if where is read that way and if it was intended that way. The maps has nothing to do with time. I mean, are there not mappings of the glacial period available? Are there not maps from 1900? or before?

            This brings up the other situation, GE.
            I have said in the past, GE is nothing more than an image. Regardless of what time period the image was taken, Does GE not show remnants of the past?
            Would that not fall under the idea of “comprehensive knowledge of geography might help”
            If you look at the Grand Canyon, does it not show the remnants, remains, fragments of time past… when seen today on satellite images … and on all maps of that area, no matter when the maps where printed?
            I would thing… using this idea… even little Indy could find the Grand Canyon on any map of that area. The question is… would the understand why the area is to be known of?
            The same can be for anyone looking at a map of the RM’s. We don’t know what was stated by the searchers at the first two clues…or what state. MT in Glacier NP? WY at the the YS grand canyon, In CO at Never summer mountains… pick one, any one…

        • Seeker,

          The past is the past, it was at one time. Where glaciers were in the past or the canyons that may have been made. Your arguments may be true, but those images of places still exist to this day, I’m talking about geographically, The past as I maintain absolutely has nothing to do with the directions given within the poem of a route to take and places and things along the route which has nothing to do with time past or future. The poem married to a map is of facts of the place where the tc is.

          For you, your hanging on too tightly with stories, Q&As, etc, and your try to apply every word spoken or written for a solution for answers in the poem when has F indicated that one should think and analyze the poem’s clues and a comprehensive understanding of geography. Why geography? Its because of actual places that existed then and now, for us currently and not for the future. Yep the hunt may go a thousand years, its the now you should be concerned about not a 1000 prior or future. You have spoken about a thousand years, just because it “may” be that long as F has indicated. Living and thinking in the past is not going to help in the present. Yesterday and back is the past for everyone and a prediction in the future is just that a prediction.

          You want to use the word “where” for the sole purpose of a debate, and IMO your not being helpful to your self. Your arguments to me are folly thinking in the past. Where has different meaning in this case it’s a place to start with the first clue, and actual present place “where warm waters halts”, much like where I live, where I live is present and a place.

          Just Say’n

          • CHarlieM ~ ‘Why geography? Its because of actual places that existed then and now, for us currently and not for the future.’
            ‘ its the now you should be concerned about not a 1000 prior or future.’

            I don’t know what I can say other than post what fenn has stated:

            “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. **People don’t understand that.”**

            If he had the future in mind, to influence future generations… are you not putting a time limit on how the poem can be read, by thinking is was only for now, for us, and not for anyone in the future as well?

            ~the study of the physical features of the earth and its atmosphere, and of human activity as it affects and is affected by these, including the distribution of populations and resources, land use, and industries.
            ~ Geography seeks to understand where things are found, why they are there, and how they develop and change over time.

            Where does it say… only us in this generation?
            What is it we don’t understand?
            I mean, fenn said You have to “find out- you have to learn” where the first clue is.
            Find out what exactly?
            Learn what exactly?
            What is it about geography that stumped everyone that we have been told; deciphered the first clues reference, but still didn’t know the did so… went by everything else, so close to the chest they could hit it with a toss of a stone.

            I think there’s a bit more to the idea of “comprehensive knowledge of geography…” than a simple location point of the first clue.

          • Seeker, there’s one assumption you have made with your theory that we may have to stay at or near wwwh to decipher a possible spot where all the clues align. You also have mentioned that searchers have gone on “stomping” out the rest of the clues from point to point- hence they walked or went on by the clues.

            The assumption- that many of the searchers you put in this category haven’t spent a bunch of time at their wwwh and tried to align all the clues like your theory suggests.

            I know I have spent plenty of time at my wwwh trying that and taking 360 degree pictures and video.

          • Fundamental… that is a great point. On one search a couple of years ago I spent two days at my wwh. I know now that it was not correct. On to better things. I believe a serious searcher who believes in their first clue will spend significant time there botg…

          • FunD,

            Goofy asked at one time, how could fenn write a poem with folks like him {Goofy} in mind. People who have spend years in the Rockies, hike them, camp in them, and not unlike fenn spend months there and for years throughout his life. Or even folks who live near the special place location… all would not have an advantage, compared to John Doe who is dedicated to studying the poem, but not too familiar with the Rockies.

            It all seems to revolve around WWWH. I just don’t think the first clue is simply a point on a map to start at, only.
            We know fenn has said ‘more than several’ have done just that… but up till now that we know of, none had correctly figured out clue 3 or 4… they seem to be stumbled on how to continue correctly [ understand something ].

            Paraphrasing many comments to make a point;
            Folks don’t dwell enough on the first clue.
            If you don’t have the first clue nailed down, stay home. {that’s more about knowing something, rather than know where it is..imo}
            Some got there, but had no clue to the significance of where they were.
            If you don’t have WWH you have nothing. AND, we also have been told, we can go looking for other clues without it, that’s a folly.
            We need to find out – learn where WWH is.

            Nothing in these comments says to me we just use WWH’s reference location simply as a starting point and simply go to the next point… something is missing in that idea.

            So look at it this way. fenn finally said he followed the clues.. right? Well, ask yourself why the guy who created those clues, know the place like the back of his hand, needed to be at WWH.. he knew the answer to each clue and its location… right? Why did he need to be at WWH? and follow any clue ~ because there is no other way he knows of but to follow all the clues [ingredients].

            Ya see, what has bugged me is, his many comments that said the same thing; can’t find it on a Sunday picnic or spring break… Why not? He did it in one afternoon… right? while apparently following “the clues” 9 clues that he counted out.. right from the first clue.

            What do we need to “learn” about WWH that puts us on the right path? Something fenn obviously knew… that he could accomplish the task in one afternoon, but we may not be able to, even on spring break? [basically in a weeks time span]

            We are missing something… and it all relates to the first clue.
            Simply using WWH as ‘only’ point on the map has failed. I’m trying to figure out why and what it is about it that I need to know of?
            The big question is; fenn knew beforehand because he created the clue… can we know beforehand or is it only “figured out – learned” at WWH.
            “Observing, Planning” What, when where?

            You said you stay at your WWH, spent plenty of time there… OK,
            Two possibilities:
            You’re at the wrong WWH…
            You didn’t figure out what was needed to be learned… { in theory }

            **Like I said; can we know beforehand or known only when on site, “thinking the right thoughts” and have “planned” for it to “observe” it? line of thinking.

            Folks talk about IT as the journey or many other ideas. I think IT is more about the “planning and observing” part of the challenge.

            **Begin, your observing you planned out… line of thinking.
            “It not a matter of trying, its a matter of thinking…people figured out the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest”

            I think folks are stuck on two things.
            1. ‘Only’ attempting to find the location of WWH reference.
            2. not analyzing possible other factors the poem is relaying to ‘complete’ the solve… and only fixated on getting through way points to hopefully find the chest,

            Fenn ‘completed’ the poem “when” he followed his own created clues.., think about that. Forget the chest, The lure… think about fenn completing the poem ‘when” he followed ‘his’ clues.

            End of commentary…

          • LOL!!

            Seeker, ken, fundy – you guys Never disappoint!! But what is it that Yates always says……ya’ll gettin’ close to giving out Dangerous Intel!! 🙂

            It’s great to see like-minded ancients! (bet JCM is in there, too)

            As always, Good Luck to Ya’ll!!!!……loco

          • Seeker, I still stand by what I said…you made an assumption that I pointed out.

            Your theory has failed so far too. It’s obvious that it’s tough to figure out why someone hasn’t figured everything out about the correct wwwh. Pointing this out isn’t the point I was making. The reasons you gave for my botg example are the same reasons that have happened for your theory. That’s all I was saying.

          • FunD,

            There is another possible reason… other than wrong location, or even wrong thoughts… wrong time.

          • Great, Seeker. But that has nothing to do with what I brought up.

            By saying what you have said, you are saying that we can only try your theory at the correct wwwh and that’s ridiculous.

          • Seeker (response to 10:14am comment),
            Is it possible you are attempting to assimilate too much ‘data’? Consider these two comments from Forrest:

            “All the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.”

            “There are nine clues in the poem, but if you read the book, there are a couple [of hints in the book]. There are a couple of good hints, and then there are a couple of aberrations that live out on the edge.”

            My approach is like my mind – simple. There are obvious reasons for this…

            Just a thought.

          • FunD,

            Umm at the wrong WWH my theory or anyone’s theory won’t work.. even if the theory is of the right method.

            This is why I bring up fenn’s warning about certainty of the location beforehand for the path to be direct.

            A searcher can be at the correct WWH and utilize the wrong method of proceeding.
            Be at the wrong WWH and utilize the right method in the wrong place.

            Being certain of the location beforehand, first and foremost, eliminates both of those wrongs.
            I also think the location is not ‘just’ one clue’s {WWH} point. The location mentioned in the quote, I believe, is of ‘all’ the clues [9] and knowing just that, as well.

            However, following the clues is a horse of a different color. IMO, that is why WWH is so important.

            Fenn was asked if all the clues could be found at home. Yes in theory… right?
            But not in practice… This is where I think the Practice Idea, is how WWH involvement is critical.. which is understanding why it is… the other clues don’t lead anywhere. They are just there.

            But I’m all ears to hear what you might think.
            I look at it this way;
            The need to know where the whole thing unfolds, the location of all the clues… this can be accomplished at home and should be. IMO
            Then deciphering of the clue’s references need to be accomplished. This can be done at home, however, I don’t think that it is remotely easy. I say that because of the idea of being ‘at’ clue one is more or less a necessity and not just a starting point.
            Then a method is used to allow the clues to lead you to the hide [ doesn’t matter which method ya like, stomping, viewing, triangulation, following the alien egg…] *For me*… the first clues is not ‘just’ ‘only’ a point… there is a reason fenn chose this clue, and where “it is at” the location.

          • Seeker, my point is still that you made a wrong assumption that searchers haven’t tried to use the theory that you have been promoting often.

            My point doesn’t involve it mattering if you at the wrong wwwh. That’s the point of trying a theory…you are trying to understand if it works where you are at.

          • Joe,

            Simple answer is, Nope.
            I don’t believe that “all” the information is in the poem.
            I believe “all the information to “find the chest” is in the poem?
            There is a difference.
            The question remains; can we understand WWWH at home, nail it down in its understanding of it, and actually proceed through the clues [ up to, but not including the physical location of the blaze ] at home? I’m not convinced that is possible. I think there is a need to be at clue one.

            That imply’s something on site is needed [ be it information, something seen at or from the clue etc.] but the need to be at the first clue’s reference seems to be a must… knowing why should [ in theory ] be known of beforehand, but it might not be.
            Hence; little Indy or anyone else ‘can not get closer’ than the first two clues… looking at any map or type of map or GE…

            I’m sure someone will say; Seeker, some have been closer. Some within 200′ of the chest, right?
            Well, it’s quite obvious they did without following the clues or if they did so by doing that, the chest should have been found. IMO they were close to begin with and move away from WWH to look for later clues [ in their solve ] going by it all.
            “…They left the poem” imo translates, the left the clues, the location of all of them.

          • Seeker,

            Bravo, the first clue needs to be solved. It is the starting of the of the map that the poem is referring to, that leads to the tc.

            From way above in this thread on 12/2018:

            I need to be clear with the idea that we currently should be concerned about now. I wasn’t saying it was just for us in the present, I was merely trying to say we shouldn’t worry about the past or the future, it’s about trying to solve the poem here in our time. I did not exclude those in the future and the poem is not just for us now. There is a possibility that we can solve the poem in our time and then it may not be found in our time.

            The focus is solving the poem at present days.

            Just Say’n

          • OK, funD

            My bad.
            I have not seen a ‘posted solve’ where the idea was attempted.
            Yet, as I hope I explained in a response to Joe’s post. The point might be… a searcher might need to be at WWH for other reasons that just a starting line.
            “All the information” might not be in the poem.
            All the information to ‘find the chest,’ is.

            Just out of curiosity [ no need to tell where, give up a clue’s reference ] What did you do at ‘your’ WWH while you spent time there?

          • Seeker, I do what most searchers prbly do at their wwwh. Look, explore around, explore all angles that I have conceived up before getting there and any I can figure out while on site. Try to see if clues and/or hints are making sense.

            Already mentioned the picture taking and video. Don’t want to miss anything that I can further analyze at home in case I missed it there. Can then kind of determine if there is some alignment spot to focus on.

            Don’t see any reason not to try every approach you can muster on site if you can’t get back there too often cause of distance.

          • Seeker (response to 1:50pm comment),
            Ok, then allow me to challenge you.

            You wrote: “…something on site is needed [ be it information, something seen at or from the clue etc.] but the need to be at the first clue’s reference seems to be a must….”

            For purpose of discussion, let’s put aside what the LGII cannot do and instead focus on what she is able to accomplish. If she CAN get as close as the first TWO clues with only the poem and a map of the Rockies, surely you, me, or any other searcher with presumed access to a wide array of internet resources can get as least as close as LGII – all from the comfort of a chair.

            So, considering Forrest’s LGII answer, it appears safe to presume the first two clues can be solved from a chair. Too, if we presume your theory is correct that you must be physically at or near WWWH to see something to proceed further, why haven’t you tested your theory with BOTG so you can progress beyond the first ‘x’ number of clues?


  47. Afana- I think that this is one time that ff – used his own meaning – for the end is ever drawing nigh meaning -the end is further away- because of the word nigh- the end is further away and to the left

  48. Zap… I brought the *bike* thread down here. I liked the reference to Fenn’s additional comments at the end of the stories in OUAW. Kind of seems appropriate some how.

    The whole bike idea is probably like anything else in the Chase non-poem related. Maybe, maybe not pertinent to the solve. The take away for me in this case(bike comment) is the whole logistics angle in general. That part may be useful in mapping out a likely start to finish solve… in a complete sense where he did the final deed and assuming he did not want to be found for a thousand years.

  49. This one is for Zap… or anyone else for that matter.
    Had you read about other treasure hunts and their different methods used to hide treasure before deciding to write a poem? Is there a reason you chose to write a poem?~j
    “Thanks Jenny. I have read only about treasures hidden by pirates, and I wish I could find one of those. I wrote the poem in my book because I needed an avenue where I could present clues and start searchers on the Chase. I worked on it for a long time and am pleased that it did its job so well.”

    • Hi ken: yep — know that one well. Poem’s are distinct from prose in that they (can) have a physical structure to them: lines, stanzas, cadence, rhyming, which offers greater opportunities for providing clues than just the words and their meanings. In my opinion, Forrest fully utilized all that that medium (Forrest’s “avenue”) provides.

      • Zap,

        Lets run with your thought; ‘… have a physical structure to them: lines, stanzas, …’
        Fenn answered a question stating – in part – “…it risky to discount them.” the words in the poem.
        You have said or implies there are hints in SB’s.. right? The same idea can be considered in Q&A’s as well , correct?

        Ok with that said; Is ‘counting’ a possibility, in some form, involving the ‘structure’ of the poem and words… with your statement ~ ‘Forrest fully utilized all that that medium (Forrest’s “avenue”) provides.’

        For example; each line in each stanza as a certain amount of words… stanza 1 is; 7567 [lines 1 2 3 4].
        Could those numbers relate to the solve? Maybe an elevation factor of where fenn ‘went a lone’ or where he started at? Could stanza 5 count be where he ‘leaves his trove for all to seek’?…
        Basically six elevation points need to be known of? {using the counting in that manner of the “example”}

        Could 4 lines per stanza, 6 stanzas, 9 sentences and 25 capital letters = 44 have involvement with a solve?
        {note; not all poems use capital letters in each line. But fenn did… was there a reason?}
        Or would you be considered a code or cypher?

        I’m also curious to why fenn could have ‘ utilized all that that medium (Forrest’s “avenue”) ‘ And a poem allows multiple meanings of words usages, not just a single meaning… Why can’t the words meanings alone do the job?
        Why can’t nigh mean; left side, near, approaching etc. all in the same breath, so to speak, and it’s our job to understand how it all works out.
        Sure it’s complex, and fenn implied the poem is complex… “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search…” By knowing a bunch of stuff like bibles verses, Latin, codes… etc.

        So IF taking letters from many words and creating another word is ok?… can’t counting words be of the same and hold information for those numbers to be used in some manner?

        Just curious of your personal opinion?
        Or anyone else who wants to chime in…

      • Hi Seeker: replying to your post from yesterday.

        “You have said or implies there are hints in SB’s.. right? The same idea can be considered in Q&A’s as well , correct?”

        I have, yes, on both counts.

        “Ok with that said; Is ‘counting’ a possibility, in some form, involving the ‘structure’ of the poem and words… with your statement ~ ‘Forrest fully utilized all that that medium (Forrest’s “avenue”) provides.’”

        Sure: I would think that’d be fair.

        “For example; each line in each stanza as a certain amount of words… stanza 1 is; 7567 [lines 1 2 3 4]. Could those numbers relate to the solve?”

        They could. Or letter counts of words, or even syllables. Lots of possible permutations. And many possible uses for the resulting numbers: coordinates, elevations (as you suggested), distances, bearings, even road numbers (though more risky since roads can change numbers or even disappear altogether in the future).

        “Could 4 lines per stanza, 6 stanzas, 9 sentences and 25 capital letters = 44 have involvement with a solve?”

        As you can see, there are almost countless possibilities — and so it presents a problem. How will you know you’ve divined what Forrest intended?

        “{note; not all poems use capital letters in each line. But fenn did… was there a reason?} Or would you be considered a code or cypher?”

        Capitalization of line beginnings is pretty standard for poetry, and if Forrest chose to take advantage of the capitalization as a means of hiding extra information, I don’t think it would necessarily have to rise to the point of being considered a code or cipher. For instance, suppose for fun that Forrest wanted to hide the word IDEA in the four corners of the poem — would you consider that a code?

        “I’m also curious to why fenn could have ‘ utilized all that that medium (Forrest’s “avenue”) ‘ And a poem allows multiple meanings of words usages, not just a single meaning… Why can’t the words meanings alone do the job?”

        I suppose they could, but it’s like having a Swiss Army knife, yet only ever using the knife blade. Why not take advantage of the multidimensionality of the poem’s structure and exercise some creativity? After all, an “architect” doesn’t just draw four walls and a roof and call it a day.

        “So IF taking letters from many words and creating another word is ok?… can’t counting words be of the same and hold information for those numbers to be used in some manner?”

        Sure — fine with me. And doesn’t it seem like such approaches might be a bit of what Forrest was alluding to with his link to the backwards bicycle?

      • That’s good Jake… Zap missed it completely.
        A way or opening for entrance into a place
        A passage by which a place may be reached
        A broad street, especially bordered by trees
        A way of approach or exit
        A method or means by which something may be accomplished

        • Could also be:
          A way of approaching a problem or making progress toward something.

          Sorta like a venue or revenue where you get richer as you go but you have to finish to collect.

      • Hi Jake: indeed, I believe they are. A nice, tree-lined avenue. And yes, ken, I totally missed that. 😉

        • Trees are good especially pine. Hopefully some sage around would help and the road being gravel is a plus seeing I don’t think he parked on asphalt.

  50. Has anyone figured out the paces yet? As in; “to walk” means pace. Steps and direction, in your opinion of course. And if some one has a picture from once upon a while. I’m looking for the page 43, or labeled as the 109 * picture. Thanks!

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