Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Seventy Three


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573 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Seventy Three

  1. Did somebody asked ff once if the treasure could be found at night? I think there was some talk about this long ago, but can’t remember if there was a comment from Forrest. Nothing on tarryscant.

    • Hi Oz10: I’m betting this is the exchange you’re thinking of:

      MW Question (6/30/2014):

      “Hi Forrest, I would like to know if the blaze can be found during the day without a flashlight. Thanks, Ron”

      Forrest: “Perhaps your question is wrought with trickiness Ron. Are you really asking if the blaze could be in a cave where it is dark during the day, thus the need of a flashlight? If there is no subterfuge intended in your question then I would say yes.f”

      • Thanks Zap, I probably got confused about the other comment ‘you can retrieve it in any weather’ and some theories searchers were posting about it. If one knows exactly where it is and it can be retrieved in any weather, will it make a difference if it is night time?

        • Here is one of a list of tips from Fenn to a searcher asking for advice.
          “The summer sun can sap your strength so it’s best to wear long sleeves, long pants, and always wear a hat, especially in New Mexico. At the first sign of fatigue, turn back. If you are not camping plan to be out of the mountains before dark. If your solve is in the desert, get a new solve, and remember, much of the Rio Grande River is not in the Rocky Mountains.”
          Obviously this does not say that the treasure cannot be found at night… but why risk not being safe.

        • Oz10,
          Why would you want to go looking at night? You are setting yourself up for failure in more ways than one. Bear attacks, twisted ankles, batteries running low. Just what the chase needs is for another searcher to get hurt over senseless provocation.

          Unless you know exactly where the tc is then why bother? And if you do know then just go in the daytime and reduce your risk. It’s cold. It’s slipery. There’s a ton of snow cover in most areas and even a small amount will hinder the view probably. But if you think it’s a good idea to go at night in this cold then good luck.

          Baby it’s cold outside! IMO

        • That wasn’t the point of the question. Most will go in the daytime and that is part of the preparation process, I will do the same. But there is no warning against going in the dark. So the question is, do we need the sunlight to find one or more clues on the field? Will we not see the blaze for example? There is these two comments:

          You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. ff

          If you know precisely where it is you can probably retrieve it in any weather. ff

          • If you can afford it, you can be provided with lots of
            artificial light. But I don’t think this would be a wise
            expenditure in this context. I don’t see that nighttime
            BOTG searching for the TC is advantageous, compared
            to daytime searching. Just my opinion.

    • Oz,
      There has been a few comments about the flashlight and a snack, going back to Richard’s blog, when it was up and running.
      The only one I think about is;
      – People have become fixated on you telling them to bring a sandwich and a flashlight. Are they just wasting their time focusing on these things as clues?
      FF: They certainly are not clues.

      I don’t have the original question that brought on the Flashlight and sandwich, but I believe someone was asking about tools needed, shovels etc… you might need to go back to 2013 – 14 to find it.

      • Hi Seeker, The flashlight and sandwich comment , was first made when a young woman searching in Bandolier, didn’t make it back to her car before dark , and had to sleep under a rock, and the first search party was called out for. That was the woman, Mr. Fenn gave the autographed copy of TTOTC, with the compass, inset in the cover too.

  2. John Edo, not sure how to help you with that image beyond saying to get the book when you can.

      • Though this is a bit of a stretch:

        The max elevation for the treasure search zone is:

        10,200 feet
        10 and 200
        200-10 = 190

        Still not sure what 190 would mean though (maybe feet, chains or yards) and maybe the distance from the blaze to the chest (idle speculation).

        • Idle,
          With all do respect that number completely leaves out the 5,000 lower range. Wasn’t those ranges used early on to narrow down extremes? Also didn’t Forrest say numbers are useless or something like that? Just curious is all.

          • Sorry I missed this, as to being degrees or anything else I don’t know. How to tie in the lower elevation or what type of degrees to use. I can get a few interesting results but I assume all just confirmation bias. How is the winter doing for your chase?

  3. Just curious… what do you guys think about all this hunter-talk on the other blogs? Is there a leading searcher, a hunter? And if yes, how many of them do we have here on hoD? 🙂

    IMO it is true that the latest scrapbooks and MW-Q&As looked like hints on a higher level, a level the average searcher has not reached, yet…

    I know it is a typical winter-thing to talk about that stuff but maybe it’s entertaining… 🙂

    • TLo ~ ‘…the latest scrapbooks and MW-Q&As’

      Which ones in particular are you referring to?
      What is it about them gives you the impression of a ‘higher level’ of hinting. I don’t even now what you mean by higher level.
      Something said that only a certain searcher{s} would know because fenn knows the have more than two clues solved in order?
      Possible hints that have more direct meaning to a clue’s reference?
      Whatcha talkin ’bout Willis?

      • Seeker
        “Something said that only a certain searcher{s} would know because fenn knows the have more than two clues solved in order?”
        Exactly… for example… I was just asking because there are several discussions on the other blogs as I said…

        • TLo,
          IMO it’s old news. I have seen numerous searchers blowing smoke all year long. It sounds like a great conversation piece for the holidays but really it just ruffles feathers and serves no purpose. IMO we should stick to the facts.

          If others want to put an unknown person then so be it. But until we have a name(Zap) then maybe we all should wait outside his house in the spring time and follow him!

    • I just went to MW to catch up on Forrest’s questions. I see lots of hints in relation to my solution. The following was very interesting to me.


      Hopeful asked “Summer is here. How is your gut feeling?” Forrest responded “My gut feeling is wavering.”

      I have stated several times that I believe that multiple meanings/definitions of words are needed to solve this poem. With that said, some of the definitions of wavering are – wink, blink, twinkle and glimmer. Since my key word is I, I believe the word wavering is hinting at the key word I.

      • HA! JBL,

        I’m a bit of a Multiple Meanings guy myself…

        So, just for fun lets play with the word ‘gut’ It can mean; courage and determination; toughness of character, Bravery, Backbone, boldness … etc etc.

        Should a searcher believe that he chest and/or clues relate to the Continental Divide, Then parts of the poem could also relate to the idea of “Gut” usages.
        The CD is known as the “backbone” of the RM’s. NPFTM could refer to the USA section [ See ya later Canada ] as “home of the Brave”

        Or maybe we should have a look at the date of the Q&A and conclude the time is past for a solve to be “completed.” A certain time in summer…
        Wavering; be undecided between two opinions or courses of action. Was the none action of a searcher the reason for a June 28th post? Summer just started.. right? June 21 2018. Seem to be a lot of summer left, correct?

        This is why folks jump to conclusion, hoping fenn is sending messages to those who “think” they are close, and play it out in the public arena for fairness. That single Q&A [ or any of the the many Q&A’s ] can be suggestive in many ways, if the reader already thinks it’s about something they said or thought about.

        Each year, the failed summer searches produce the winter melt downs, and folks look for anything, including thoughts that fenn is now adding dozens and dozens of more hint during winter recess.. and possibly directed to them personally.

        I’m reminded of this comment [ in part ];
        ***I am determined to stay aloof of providing any additional clues that are useful. Everyone has the same information to work with.*** Some few have stopped within several hundred feet of the correct location, and then passed it by. I said in my book that the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination.

        See it as ya like…

          • Works well with creek as a narrow passage. If we want to “imagine” canyon down as a narrow passage as well [ on a smaller scale ] Then NPFTM could refer to a tight passage way. And a need to lighten the load to pass through IT.

            I have pondered the idea that “clues References” are not exactly as we thonk the should be. Such as a canyon being large. Or creek hold water. Or Wood to be a forest etc. So, the idea of ‘gut’ meaning a narrow passage of water [ leaving the water out ] works with other meanings of other words to produce a different type of area that many go to.

            Just saying…

          • Seeker – Interesting interpretation of “gut”, and tying it to NPFTM. – I will have to give it some thought – JDA

          • Seeker, I understand your skepticism. I have a complete solution that utilizes multiple meanings of words (what I call the general or implied meaning as well as additional meanings of words). So, it is completely poem based. I think F makes plays on words all the time. It is how I see this puzzle. So, I just post things I find and if anyone finds it helpful, great! If no one finds it helpful, that is fine too. I’m not here to convince anyone that everything I think or do is correct. In order to do convince people, I would have to find the chest – and even then, I don’t think some would believe me. I am not a salesman type. I have always said that I couldn’t sell a life preserver to my mom in the open ocean.

            Ken, since my creek (gut) is related to my word that is key (I), F’s statement about his gut wavering is even more meaningful to me. So, thank you for that.

          • Ken,
            You will find that “gut” is a common name for a narrow passage of water in the U.S. Virgin Islands. Water Gut is found on St. Croix.

          • Hi Ken

            I don’t know if you will read this.

            Are you familiar with Gar fishing in Indonesia?

            No hook is used just the spider web gut.

            Unfortunately I cannot add a photo.

          • Lugnutz,
            Hey, just wondering if you had the eye surgery and if so, how’s things going? My mother had hers done a few years back and after her first eye was completed she said “I wish I had done that a long time ago”! Hope all is well. Merry Christmas!

          • Hey lug… no hard feelings. I was not familiar with the Indonesian Gar fishing. I do know that the Ancients were very resourceful and sometimes I drift off thinking about how the heck they developed some of their methods of survival. Very intriguing most times.

          • ByGeorge –

            I just started a new job, right before Thanksgiving.

            So I’m holding off on the expense and missed days.

            Thanks and Merry Christmas!

        • Indeed, Ken, as in Looking for Lewis and Clark: “If we don’t change course soon we’ll end up where we’re going.”

          A contemporary slang meaning for gut: easy. In college, we called unchallenging elective courses (e.g. Basket-weaving 101) “gut courses.” In other words, GPA-boosters.

          • absolutely Zap. I once tied the *wavering* comment back to the word (halt) in the first clue. As in; a faltering step. That was met with some heavy resistance from some…oh well. Anything is possible, just need to keep digging.

        • Seeker,

          I understand all that you said, but you left out hunch as a gut feeling and it could be a sixth sense as F had while in combat in Viet Nam. I will say a gut feeling or a sixth sense proved to me that I needed to listen to what my instinct [gut feeling or sixth sense all three mean the same meaning] that saved me several times while in Viet Nam.

          So a gut feeling is valid in what F felt at the time he made the statement and not so much as you said, “So, just for fun lets play with the word ‘gut’ It can mean; courage and determination; toughness of character, Bravery, Backbone, boldness … etc etc.”

          Just looking at things those words have nothing to do with as I said a gut feeling can be interpreted also as intuition or sixth sense.

          Just tos’n it out there and….

          Just say’n

          • CharlieM, I agree, IMO both ” gut feeling” comments by Mr. Fenn were simply straight forward. His numerous comments of course leaves each of us personally debating whether certain comments need to be test driven around the block. These not so much imo.

          • Exactly CharlieM,

            If we want to see something, we can make it happen.
            Only more to the point… we make it happen to what we hope it does for our thoughts and theories.
            Hence fenn must be talking to me me me, or someone who is close like me me me me.
            It happens every years… Egos get as larger than Christmas balls when someone mentions the idea…fenn must be sending a message to someone who might be close.
            LOL folks have been close to the chest since 2013 or prior. [500′ 200′ early comments]
            “Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.” – 2015.
            Gut feeling 2018…

            It’s always rinse and repeat.

      • I don’t recall any cases of a searcher going off to look for hints and coming home empty-handed.

          • Perhaps your topo map or google earth will reveal “gut” to be a lgeographical representation of guts… looped bowel/intestine. Looping meanders of a creek or other water course.

  4. I’ve asked twice that I know of, how far is it below the hoB? I’ve never had a reply to the question, which leads me to beieve it’s not important. I’m asking this in regards to anyone’s theory. Is it feet, yards, or miles? Some of you have determined or could determine the distance or hasn’t gone that far. Just curious. Mine is more than a few miles.

    • CharlieM;

      From above, you ask: ” how far is it below the hoB?” How far is what below the hoB? The poem says “Put in below the hoB.” Are you asking how far is the “Put-in” spot below the hoB? In my solve,about 100 yards – or there-abouts. JDA

      • JDA,

        You are correct I should have added at the put in how far is it below hoB?
        Thanks for the response!

        • Thanks JDA, that’s basically what I was trying to ask. This fool ask a question that is not complete, then won’t try to give the info he means. Instead, he can answer his own questions. Why even ask? What does it even matter what others have? Isn’t your solve. Another fine “Homer Simpson” move. DOH!!!

          • Poisonivey,

            I was just asking what folks thought! If they don’t want to say anything, that’s fine.

            What you said about me, was totally uncalled for, I don’t attack you personally, but I do debate your thoughts.


          • Poisonivey,

            By the way you said you were lazy I was only repeating what you said, Its not how I feel.

      • How deep is a hole? Home is where the heart is, so you’re looking for Brown’s heart. That help?

  5. Maybe sometimes when Forrest speaks he means just what he says and there isn’t anything else to it. It must be very difficult to be Forrest otherwise.
    At a restaurant:
    ff: I’d like your lunch special please. Reuben sandwich with tomato soup and a sweet tea .
    Waitress: why a Reuben? Is this a hint to the artist Rubens? he painted the consequences of war in 1639..And tomato soup… tomatoes are red, does this mean stop? And sweet tea of all things! Tea comes from China . French Indochina war!
    It all makes sense now !
    ff: actually, I am just hungry.
    I’m not picking on anybody here, just an observation that maybe Forrest misses normal conversation without having to guard his every word.

    • Probably true Veronica. Can’t go out searching… so we might as well play with the words until Spring. I bet Fenn does have a bit of fun with some of his posts though…

    • I would be happy to have a normal conversation if Forrest buys me that lunch. Reuben sandwich, tomato soup and sweet tea sound great right now.

    • If you substitute Frito Pie for the Reuben it all makes sense. He’s been giving us hints every time he goes out for lunch. It obviously refers to the Enchanted Circle since Pi(e) is the ratio of circumference to diameter in a circle. Now I just need to figure out how Frito = Enchanted. That’s a tough one, give me a few days and I’m sure I’ll find it. Oh wait, Frito is the protagonist of Bored of the Rings who travels through the *enchanted* realms of Twodor and Fordor to do something with some stupid ring. Couldn’t be clearer, this is a hint pointing us to NM. He fooled us all into thinking that he just likes Frito Pie. Kudos for the deception Mr Fenn.

    • One origin story holds that Reuben Kulakofsky (his first name sometimes spelled Reubin; his last name sometimes shortened to Kay), a Jewish Lithuanian-born grocer residing in Omaha, Nebraska, was the inventor, perhaps as part of a group effort by members of Kulakofsky’s weekly poker game held in the Blackstone Hotel …
      Reuben sandwich – Wikipedia

      Ah ha…. the poker poem …. play whether you like it or not.

    • I think FF can pretty much take care of himself; I also think that we all have
      regrets. I don’t much envy him, but I respect him. And I find some of his writing
      to be clever and entertaining.

      All in my opinyawn.

      • Oh, I agree TA , that Forrest can certainly handle his own and I definitely admire him. He is a clever fella!

  6. yup… Forrest Fenn had a gut feeling earlier this year. He had a feeling the treasure would not be found this year.

      • That is true Windy…still another way to look at that statement without reading too much into it.

        • Situations change…….

          Mr. Fenn is perhaps the smartest or at least the most clever person, I have ever met…


          • Mr. Ken-

            You sir taught me about cairns. That avatar is a picture of a carn with 2 1/2 feet of snow on it. Under the carn rests the strong box. IMO


          • Billy… some wood argue that a cairn would be a man-made structure. Either way… I’ve seen many in my time…and have not once disturbed one physically. I do admit to tearing them apart with my eyes. I also know that some areas have rules about the construction or destruction of cairns. Just something to think about…

          • Mr. Ken-

            I understand. You see, this isn’t a ancient carn, but a carn relatively recently constructed. I’ll switch my avatar to show you the avenue up there. Even a nutty sherif, with parkinson’s and handicapped with a bad leg, can trudge up there!


          • Mr. Ken-

            Oops! Wrong picture…that was one the deputy took of me standing by the blaze!

            I’ll try again..


          • Sherif Billy

            I agree. Mr. Fenn is the smartest person I know of.

            There isn’t a reply button under your post below, so I’ll post my question here: If the strong box rests below a cairn then wouldn’t it be necessary to tear the cairn apart in order to recover the tc?

  7. The problem with a “Gut Feeling” is best illustrated by knowing how human beings operate in the real world, humans think that they think and then act upon their thoughts, but actually we are not Thinking Creatures (beings) we are actually “feelin creatures” who think, first one must “feel and emotion, or motivation, that is what starts the process of solving life’s problems: Emotion, feelings ie gut instinct are the underlying neural machinery that participates and controls much if not all our decision making processes.

    First we have a feeling, then we think about, sometimes we act, or not, but the process is always the same, and no we don’t think first its the other way around. Give me a person who does not operate in the real world this way and I will show you someone with a disorder.

    If you get a feeling when you read a line in the poem, it is intended by the creator/author and is what you base your thinking on, so if Forrest had gut feeling about the TC being found last summer it was based on someones solution, or their line of reasoning expressing knowledge and imagination. Why else would he say that? Unless you feel he is jerkin our chain?


        • I always thought an S.O.S. was chipped beef on toast…. learning sumptin’ new every day, but Frosty n’ me is still puzzled by that secret 10 toed team of two, feeling & thought. Does it start, nigh hop and far step, or hop far and step nigh? Most confusing.

    • From another blog:

      Topic: Gut feeling – Fenn clarifies

      From Fenn regarding the gut feeling quote:

      “My gut feeling is nothing but a hunch based on no information, and no one should pay any attention to it. f”

      Forrest’s gut feeling came in February.
      Dizzy Dean Scrapbook came in June.
      This clarification came in July.

      Now, read the quote again but read “no one” as “Number One”.

      • curious why we should read the quote again substituting *no one* with “Number One”? “…, and Number One should pay any attention to it. f”
        Sounds kind of off-kilter with the word *any* in it? I guess maybe…maybe not.

        • “my GUT feeling is nothing but a hunCH bASEd on no INFOrmation, and no one should PAY any ATTENTION to it.”


          (‘gut’ auf deutsch = ‘good’ auf englisch)

          Can’t see how ff could have possibly made it any clearer.

          • Jake –

            That’s brilliant!

            Look at sly old Forrest hiding the acrostic for INFO within the the word INFORMATION.

            I would have never thought of that!

        • Because if Number One pays “any” attention to this:

          “My gut feeling is nothing but a hunch based on no information,…”

          Number One would realize he is Dizzy Dean.

  8. posted by Mister Zap, on SB 196:
    “Pity us, poor Loco, who live in a cave and have never seen Nelika’s name before today. Some of us have a life and don’t spend every living moment absorbing everything Fenn on 29 blogs and 101 YouTube channels. Extra lump of coal for your stocking.”


    Mite touchy today, eh zapster? Sorry that it takes up all of YOUR waking hours to stay current on what is going on (and still, that is apparently not enough?)…..the Chase is just a side gig for me, I just do it in my spare time.

    Now why would I take pity on you? You have been all over the blogosphere touting how much, and how well, you research and transcribe all things Fenn….shoot guy, I take you at your word!! Matter-of-fact, I am ecstatic that you, Dal, digging gypsy, Cynthia and others are all in Montana…..your research will show you why one of these days, or maybe not? You just need to dig a little deeper and ‘listen’.

    You really oughta take a page from Seeker’s, Ken’s and others book…..be open-minded when considering what f says……

    Oh, and could you make that lump of coal a few sticks of mesquite….I much prefer the aroma of mesquite.

    Good Luck to Ya, Zap…..have a nice vacation next summer and do be sure to take lots of pictures!!!!!

    • Ha! ~ ‘You really oughta take a page from Seeker’s,…. and other’s book…..be open-minded when considering what f says.’

      *Translation; I have a lot of available space in the attic…

      Zap, ~ ‘Some of us have a life and don’t spend every living moment absorbing everything Fenn’

      I never understand why you and others always bring up this disgruntle attitude about; having a life or getting back to my life, or spend too much money or want to spend that money elsewhere on other project, being away from family, and the list goes on and on…

      Why are things like this ever mentioned at all.

      Its degrading to those who simply enjoy the challenge, having fun, while others have express their appreciation of that needed push, getting them out and exploring the country side.

      If folks start to think this is an invasion of life, or cost to much, or as impaired family life, rather than bring it together or need to use it as an excuse in the attempt to belittle another … well, ya’ll missed the friggin point now, didn’t ya!!

      I speak for myself when I say; its not needed, called for, and it’s your ‘own’ problem.
      All that crap is a pathetic excuse to make you feel better at others expense.

      • Seeker: maybe you missed this. Loco made a snide remark directed at me and Dejoka for having the audacity to have a little fun exploring anagrams of “Nelika,” and basically implying that I’m a piker for not being aware of the existence of a searcher who in fact has that name. End of commentary.

        • Piker. Haven’t heard that one in a while. How about Snarky? Or “what’s your boggle?” Want your opinion validated too? C’mon folks, keep it in tight focus.

        • Piker – prike, kripe? Nope, getting nothing except the names
          Kiper and Preki. A draft analyst and a soccer player. Zap I’m not catching the hidden meaning here, any more hints?

        • Seems to me, Zap, Loco replied to ‘Copper’…

          Regardless, All I read was ‘others’…

          I don’t care about the anagrams, do with it as ya like, you have said in the past you found hints “hundreds” in fenn postings, and use this method.
          My comment was about this silly need to bring up the idea that “others” have a life, as if those {some} who chat here, take on the challenge, don’t. That’s not being snide?
          I also think your comment was comical since you told ‘me’ on another post you have 180 plus pages you transcript and typed out of fenn’s ATF’s vids etc… How long did that take you?

          Piker {your word} kinda fits… I’d add hypocrite as well, IF, I was attempting to be snide.
          Personally I like snarky.. it’s sounds peppier. But they are synonyms and mean the same thing… right?

          • Seeker: as my Festivus present to you (but more to everyone else whose delete button has surpassed the E in usage), I will refrain from responding to your recent missive. Since my posts are frequently misunderstood (and rarely in a favorable way), I will simply say my goodbyes here, wish everyone well and good hunting in the coming year. Thank you, Dal, for your platform and silent wisdom. I will expand off-list with a more fitting tribute to your unparalleled Fenn resource.

          • Hey Zap… I will miss your posts. We do not see things the same way most times…as is expected in something complex like the Chase. Nevertheless, I still like to read ALL ideas from everyone. A little mud slinging should not compel you to pull the plug on future interaction. Anyway…carry on soldier.

          • Zaphod, I enJOY your contribution. You may need some time for PEACE of mind, then come back next year aNEW.

          • Seeker, In the spirit of giving, HOD would be considerably lacking without your contributions as well. Merry Christmas and, we can only hope for a happy new year for all here at HOD.

          • OK, now I feel really peeved about Zap deciding to leave because of a general lack of civility in some of the posts here.

          • Sorry to see you go Zap.

            Festivus isn’t over until after the feats of strength. I hope your labors include lugging 42lbs back to the car.

          • I always considered you a contender Zap although our search strategies differ.
            I don’t believe anyone really quits the chase 100% (do they?)
            Check in from time to time whenever you have the time.(!)
            Later DooD. 😉

          • Faulker –

            If Zap leaves the HoD are we then able to discuss his ideas more openly?

            Will HMA also leave?

            All kidding aside, it may seem silly but this Chase can induce stress and anxiety and stepping away is a good idea.

            I hope that we can do a Montana meet up without the critics.

            We can meet for a fun meal and Hunt. My search area is closer to the border than yours or Zap’s. I don’t venture far from where the warm waters halt.


    • Lookie Loco giving hints about other searchers. ROTFLMFAO, hmmm, I get ‘MR. FAT FOOL’.
      I would have to say, Loco is pretty insightful. I guess f can’t just have a nice story without those tearing into it. Lol, Loco, thinking that they could be open-minded, and Seeker, how dare you have an opinion, and stating the obvious. Hmpphh, need to work on being more of a hypocrite. I’m just impressed you got through a post with no spelling errors. Can’t we all just get along? (Sorry, Larry H. Parker commercial was just on).

  9. How accurate and detailed are the poems directions?
    You start at BIWWWH and what is the size of this area or spot?
    It could be as small as a special fishing spot but not a large region.

    Take it in the canyon down, Does this imply being in water or just driving or hiking down the canyon and in most cases there is only one road next to a waterway in a canyon.
    Canyons can be hundreds of ft wide and many miles long. Some canyons are less than 30 ft wide and less than a mile long.

    Put in below the home of Brown – Could be a small spot or large area or region. If it’s a persons home, then it’s probably a small spot. if it’s about an animal it could be as large as Hebgen Lake and if it is a lake or large region, it wouldn’t matter where you put in because you can access the whole area to take out or draw out and that seems a lot more important to me.

    Is there anything in the poem that indicates the size of these clues or geographical features?
    Waters, canyon, home, place, ever, creek, heavy loads, water high, blaze.
    No definitive size indicated but implies a pathway to the treasure.

    Up your creek. Does this imply in the middle of the creek? Or to the left or to the right and then we have “just” which implies in the creek.

    We do know he parked within a few miles from the hidey spot and would have to assume the road leads up a creek at some point.

    How does the poem lead you to several steps of the chest or blaze when we don’t know how he corrupted “several” or any other words he used?

    I’m just going to follow waterways or creeks and search 500 ft from them and hope to make sure there is not a “human trail” within 500 ft but a recognizable area by a pic within 200 ft. and I’m not buying Cynthia’s post about the paraphrased “one male searcher” and the other details she posted cause it doesn’t conform to fenn’s statement of a level playing field.

    Happy holidays.

    • Just make sure you change that there is no human trail within 500′. It’s possible. Just not very close proximity. Oh, and “How does the poem lead you to several steps of the chest or blaze when we don’t know how he corrupted “several” or any other words he used?”
      it seems that word corruption isn’t that big of a deal:
      – I’ve also read that you wrote the treasure hunt for an unemployed redneck with 12 kids. Does this mean that all of those people who are delving into Native American history, Greek mythology etc are looking too deeply? Can hunters really get to the treasure location with just a good map, the poem, and a decent knowledge of words?
      FF: I wrote the book for everyone who feels a sense of wanderlust. In your last question if you change the last word to geography, my answer would be yes.
      Add in “Nope’s” ATF also.
      You starting over Jake? Whipping the slate clean? Yes, the poem doesn’t have answers for some of the clues. Nothing does, that’s why so frustrating. I say, you try to solve for all the clues, you fail. Because per f, the answers are not there. You’re a smart guy Jake, solve the poem, forget the clues, they will come in do time. Popular belief is that solving clues is solving the poem. Nothing farther from the truth. That is the chatter of fools. Consult the ‘tree’ of “knowledge” and “deep-thinking”. (And have some Fritos or Doritos on hand in case of the munchies).

      • Poisonivy,

        “…Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?”

        I’m reminded of the school kids questions when fenn said he would answer them as presented. I think he does that with all questions.
        Nope question was not asked well, “Just use the word and find the chest” seems logical, yet, two things seem to be missing.
        1. The obvious need to be on site, but I guess that is being semantic.
        2. Nothing else is presented but the poem.

        Look at it this way; fenn warns us that the path [imo the clues] would not be direct without certainty of location beforehand [ you can look up the full quote yourself ] My point is; is the “location” mentioned in the poem, deciphered from the poem, OR, hinted from the book?
        Kinda the idea; Hints in the book will help with the clues… right?
        Do they help with individual clues? Or, help with all the clues by helping know of their location? And possibly the “right map”

        At first thought the location could be, WWH. Only there are many of those; as we have been told. So, is the “location” about where all the clues are located, rather than one, WWH?
        Nope’s question eliminated: A need to be on site, and the thought of how we can determined any “location” “beforehand” for the path to be direct.
        Is there a significance of the area that needs to be understood that brings the clues together?

        My point is; the two comment [you talked about] might seem like they conflict each other, but maybe they don’t… if we bring in other ATF’s into the equation, and attempt to check and balance what is implied by all of those ATF’s.

        IMO, hanging your hat on one or two ATF’s is the same as tossing a dart at a map to find WWWH.

        • “…..study the clues in the book and thread a tract through the wiles of nature and circumstance to the treasure. If you can find it, you can have it. I warned the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”
          I know it well.
          It’s that and the “puts an ‘X’ on a map” comment that makes me say “you will know the end spot before wwwh”. And of course, you won’t know wwwh until you have the chest.
          I’ve put a lot of ATF’s together, pretty detailed actually, so no hanging my hat on just a couple. The one I keep mentioning is for the reason of trying to solve clues, which is usually the topic. I just want to know how searchers got answers for what the ATF comments on, when f says in the ATF that there is no answers. I realize it is a trick question, but it seems like most do not. From that ATF, you cannot solve by going from the first clue to the second to the third and so on. And of course you can see why, there is no answer to start, that is not solving the poem.
          I agree with you, the path is basically the clues, or at least the path contains all the clues. That opens up more ATF’s to the point that all the clues will be walked. You park your car at the first clue. But that’s a different conversation.
          I’ll reiterate, there is nothing in the book/poem that says that wwwh is at this location. Nothing comes out and says, “wwwh is right here, start here”. We all know this. Any other ways of trying to solve for wwwh would fall under being “subtle”. That’s why I say that ATF is a deal breaker for many. The searchers that believe that you can solve for each individual clue. It’s not how the poem was written, does not follow the ATF’s, especially when we only know of two clues. And that’s not to get twisted with the fact that wwwh can be learned or known, or in conflicting words, solved.
          If the clues will get us to the treasure, and the poem is all we need, and knowing Geography instead of the words is more important, (Can hunters really get to the treasure location with just a good map, the poem, and a decent knowledge of words?,
          if you change the last word to geography, my answer would be yes.), then what are you left with? How does someone put an “X” on a map? How does someone feel confident in the end spot? Enough to weed a path that will contain all the clues? A hint is in an ATF:
          Forrest Fenn on February 18, 2016 at 2:02 pm said:
          Spoon, “If person had the correct GPS coordinates they could find the chest.” Physics says this has to be true. How can it not be? The key word here is “correct.”
          In fact, if we go by what he is saying, actually, we are looking for the spot of where a bell is buried. That’s where the coordinates take you, IMO. We know that he wants to put his ‘secret” where? and that his “secret” plan is in hiding the bells. 8 of them. One of them being on the path. Because more ATF’s say so. It’s then the 9th, and only clue you really need needs to be solved.
          If we get the first clue right we are half way there, metaphorically speaking, right, because you know the end spot, start at the first clue, and walk the path to the end, following all the clues.
          Your point is what most need to do, match up all the ATF’s, I thought that is what most do, but with some of the posts, seems most just believe the one’s that fit their guess.
          All kidding and stuff aside, searchers want a map to the bells, his ATF’s cover that. Why say that if they are found in the year 12016. Why not 12015 or whatever? Same thing. And with Bighorn ring any bells, we have spoke 24 already, 12016, I see 12,20,16. 8 bells, just get the opposites of those spokes.
          24 opp. 9, 12 opp. 26, 20 opp. 5, 16 opp. 1. Spokes 1,5,9,12,16,20,24,26.
          It also matches the word “that” is key. Add them up, 113. The word “that” is the 113th word, and, the distance from your 8th clue, where the bell is, to the chest. 113 feet. Also, if you have the coordinates, 113’ is also 1.6″ or the Golden Ratio of nature. Just rambling, sorry Seeker, went off tangent.
          The ATF’s are the most important thing in the chase. F couldn’t just sit by and watch, he had to say more, probably eating him up. IMO, what searchers should do, instead of trying to solve for clues that have no answer is to align all his ATF’s. It’s daunting, but rewarding. Trying to solve for some of the clues is like trying to explain that some “infinities” are larger then others. Most will argue the wrong point, and ignore that it is true.

          • poison,

            I truly believe that the bells are not part of the Chase in any way, they are completely separate. Just because the bells are mentioned in the book does not mean they were involved. Just because let’s say the spices that F wrote about, doesn’t mean they have something to do with finding the tc.

            Let’s say F ended his life where he hid the tc, would there be ATFs or Q&As? Of course not, without them can the poem be solved? The answer would be yes.

            The point being is ATF and Q&As might add more controversy and confusion than necessary. Has the ATFs or Q&As helped in finding the tc, not really.

            Remember F said along the lines of, marry the poem to a map. The only tools that will help are the poem, a good map and a comprehensive understanding of geography along with the subtle clues that are in TTOTC.

            I would almost bet the subtle hints will only help after one figures out wwwh, otherwise it would be guessing or throwing darts, IMO.

            Just Say’n

          • In the book, f says “let me tell you my secret plan”, regarding hiding the bells.
            In the poem, line number 3, “I can keep my secret where”.

            It is possible that what he is talking about are bells. That’s the secret.
            If f is dead and gone, wouldn’t you think that he would think that maybe good idea to ring a bell, so his spirit will know?
            At the Bighorn medicine wheel, bells are left for offerings. An ATF even mentions does bighorn ring any bells.
            You are incorrect, all you need is the poem. Nothing else. It’s a good idea to have more, but all you need is the poem.
            “along with the subtle clues that are in TTOTC.” That’s not clues, it’s hints, subtle hints. And, in case you’ve missed recent posts, there are no subtle answers to wwwh. None. What is so hard in seeing this? There are no answers to wwwh. F’s own words. Trying to solve for wwwh as an individual clue is a fools rabbit hole. F has not given the answer to the question, where is wwwh. Does he need to come out and say, ” the first clue is wwwh, but, I have not given any info to solve where this place may be? I’ve given you a poem, that when solved will put you at a certain place, and then you can see where to begin, but to just outright solve for that first clue, I have not given the info to do that”. That is what his ATF is saying. That’s when an AYF can help in finding the chest. So when you say:
            “The point being is ATF and Q&As might add more controversy and confusion than necessary. Has the ATFs or Q&As helped in finding the tc, not really.”
            This would be incorrect. So Afana, I disagree with your assumption that CharlieM is correct. In fact, his ATF’s are what made the blaze and wwwh clues. Without them, we would not know any of the clues.

            “Let’s say F ended his life where he hid the tc, would there be ATFs or Q&As? Of course not, without them can the poem be solved? The answer would be yes”
            Never said the poem couldn’t be solved without the ATF’s and Q&A’s. But the more info you have the better. And, with f not being able to just sit by, of course the ATF’s need to be addressed. Especially when you put them together by topic. The ATF’s are more important then the clues because they define your path and answer questions regarding the clues.
            Now the spices comment, depends on one’s solve. In my solve, at the first clue where you park the car, is at the end of a street named Evergreen. At the end of Evergreen street is a church. So, again, your comment is based on your solve and not true. That’s like me discounting everyone’s solve that does not have letter values. An incorrect assumption.
            You can solve how you want, but if all you have is the poem, a map, and knowledge of Geography, you are at a major disadvantage.

          • Poison;

            You keep saying that wwwh can not be solved from the poem. You then say that the ATF’s are not needed, but they make it easier – or words to that effect. If the ATF are not needed (but help) and wwwh can not be solved with the poem, why are you still in the chase, since it is impossible to solve, according to what you post? Just askin’ JDA
            P.S. thought you were going to email me – JDA

          • Poison, Because I was mentioned in your long winded post, I’ll reply. What if I said there are many subtle hints to WWWH imo. Would you tell me I was incorrect ? And if so, how would you know for sure otherwise ? Don’t assert your OPINION to the point of telling us we’re incorrect or fools and, your not. Next time don’t forget to include IMO.

          • Poison 4,

            I mostly just like to make little quips that I hope f would enjoy if he were to see them… and prefer to leave the heavy lifting for when I’m on-site. But I take exception to the multiple assertions from you that f “has not provided any info to solve where this place may be”; especially regarding WWWH.

            Has he given us the “correct answer” to it? No! What fun would that be? But I believe he has ‘hinted’ the hell outta it, so much so that the cows have already come home and are now back in the pasture.

      • I think the nope, nope question is a good one because the answer given points to a realization about the poem involving all backstory and what that entails. Like, the introduction in the poem that some see stanza one only being.

        • I agree that the nope nope is important as well… the backstory is important…and although not mentioned in that exchange, the book seems to play into a big part of the backstory in a more direct way than all other stories/ATF etc..
          There is no direct link to any one stanza in the poem… so I was curious why you earmarked that stanza? Are you equating that stanza(one) with backstory? Or…just the obvious because it precedes the first clue?

          • @ken,

            The whole Nope question may have been written by James and Mindy to help solidify their belief that the first stanza of the poem refers searchers back to the book and that the back story and book are vital to solving this (see First Stanza Answer thread on CC). So yes Fundamental’s associating that Nope question to the first stanza is just part of that. And again the way the question was posed was just a way to elicite an answer that they believed they already knew.

          • Sean…I try not to put any spin on who the actual questioner or their motives is/are. I am aware of Fundamental’s history involving the ideas…so my question was basically just clarifying that. Maybe Fundy’s ideas have changed? Not for me to judge that.
            In his short post above The idea jumped straight from *backstory* to the first stanza…which does not really jive with the *nope nope * question.

          • Ken- yes, I’m saying some searchers equate stanza one with it being just an introduction to the rest of the poem. Another term for that can be back story.

            Definition of the term back story- A set of events invented for a book, film or play that have taken place before it beigins. Or this description- Account of events leading up to what is being written about now.

            Sounds exactly like what the first stanza entails.

            The point being that with the nope, nope hypothetical question we find out for the first time that removing anything in the poem that possibly pertains to back story helps eliminate any reasonable chance to find the tc with just using the words of the poem. Before, f has said many times the poem is all you need. So, what I’ve been saying for a long time is something is vital in the first stanza that helps one figure out the correct beginning area. That seems to ring true that now the poem isn’t enough. Something changed and I don’t think it’s about a map.

            You’re right not to have Seannm answer for me as he got a lot of his reply incorrect. Didn’t write the nope, nope question. I believe they found the real author of the question on MW in one of the comments posted a little before the nope, nope question was posted. So, can’t have already known the answer ahead of time.

            Also, never said that the first stanza refers people back to the book. I’d appreciate if others also don’t let Seannm speak for me as he gets it wrong.

          • To clarify, it’s a simple subtraction problem if one feels that the first stanza is an introduction/includes backstory (I’m leaving that judgment for other searchers). F said the poem words are no longer enough to reasonably help a searcher find the tc. That means the “remaining” words in the poem, after you subtract the ones that pertain to back story aren’t enough.

            A map, to me, isn’t what f is referring to as the missing important info. That’s because f says in his reply that the words in the poem now aren’t enough to reasonable allow one to find the tc. Before, it was “Emily, All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.“

          • Lets, for a moment, work on the assumption the poem is telling us something other than to simply follow 9 clues.
            Stanza 1 AIHGAIT… and HORNAO.
            Stanza 5 SWIITIMG… IDITANIW.
            Both of these stanzas tell of a place where one as gone to, and now leaves. The simple conclusion is; we need to know the place, the location of the path… the path, the clues provided, will lead to the trove.
            So ya have to wonder is HORNAO connect to Tired and Weak in some manner, and if so, don’t we need to think about how “in there” could relate to IYRBAITW?
            The point is; { and I wish folks would stop saying; f has said many times the poem is all you need -There is a difference to; its in the poem for all to see, and, all the information to ‘find the chest’ is in the poem.}

            Are these stanzas meant to guide us with the idea that we should review the book for help with that “location”?
            I think we might be looking at the book in the wrong manner, hoping it solves deciphers the clues. When all it might do is render the location for us to do our job { which is to decipher the clues, using the tools and ideas we have been told would help }.

            fenn warned the “path” {imo, the clues themselves} would not be direct… without the “certainty of the location beforehand” IS it possible that this is all the book does?
            ‘the book will help with the clues’.. {location of the clues?} Nope’s question eliminated the possibility of the above.
            However, we have another Q&A that seems to imply; does the book help in a more subtle way to answer hoB, WWH etc [ clue’s references ]; No I do not madam.
            Regardless of subtle vs. more subtle {which make no sense to me} is the book simply the avenue to present the poem, the challenge, and the location of the clues, rather than, answering the clues… which seems to be our job if we want to locate the trove.
            This of it self would be a riddle… and needed to be understood long before the attempt to decipher the ‘path’… keeping in mind, the book by itself would not lead to the chest, line of thinking.

            Just rambling and rumbling….

          • Seeker, I agree with your thought here…I think we might be looking at the book in the wrong manner, hoping it solves deciphers the clues. When all it might do is render the location for us to do our job { which is to decipher the clues, using the tools and ideas we have been told would help }.

            Ive been saying that for awhile.

            On another note, I just used the general idea of what f has been saying about the poem for what you quoted in my post. Like when f said the poem will take you to the treasure. I later clarified with f’s answer to Emily.

          • FunD,

            I saw your clarification. We seemed to be typing at the same time… I only meant that the way fenn stated his many comments about the poem, appear to be slightly different to the idea, all that is needed in the poem.

            I could also add; one time fenn said; they don’t need to read the book they need to read the poem, the book will help them…
            I take this comment [ and in combination with other ATF ] That if someone can decipher the clues without the book they can find the trove. The problem again is, where are the clues located?
            I think that the poem is broken down into two ideas;
            1. It tells of how we should locate the location [ mainly the book ].
            2. presents the 9 clues to be followed that takes someone to the trove.
            Basically saying; stanza 1 5 6 work together, and stanza 2 3 4 work together… these stanzas present the clues in their order.
            Both 1 and 2 above don’t interfere with the idea the poem will lead to the trove, nor the book will help. I just think they seem to have two separate messages.

          • I don’t know guys… regardless of the many discussions pertaining to poem only, and poem and book theories…the fact is that this whole Chase shot out of the cannon when TTOTC went public. Also… Fenn gives directions on how to solve; including reading the book, reading the poem and marrying the clues to a map. In essence the *nope nope* Q becomes a solid qualifier that just reiterates Fenn’s recipe for success. The Emily Q seems to clearly state that there are no direct answers in the book to the clues mentioned by her in the question…so that seems to leave out the possibility of finding the *location* in the book…that would kind of be a real big answer wouldn’t it?

            Sure…a backstory could describe a set of events, but usually involve describing the previous life and experiences of a *character* in an upcoming set of events or story…not just the event/s. Either way, I think the book is essential, and the first stanza is more than just a couple of unimportant words leading into the clues. The addition of *a good map* still nags at me for some reason and sometimes I think Fenn threw that in there after realizing how many folks were relying on them, and just how difficult it is for folks to get on track.

          • ken,
            Not really… The Q&A only tells that the info will “find” the trove. Nothing about where the clue’s location is at. So is the location of the clues considered a clue?
            Is the idea that the book will help, is more about where we need to look for the clues and more importantly, the correct WWH {out of the many possible locations throughout the Rockies} or stay home?
            While some have been at the correct location, by fenn’s account, they didn’t understand where they were… they indicated what they thought and what their “clue references” were. But… they still got stumped at clues 3 and/or 4.
            Nothing here says they ‘knew’ of the correct location either.

            So the question remains; What is it about the location of the clues [ not their references ] that might be needed to help with the clues. Might it be that “good map”?
            Where in the book, or how many times, is a map talked about?
            And why would fenn be surprised searchers went straight to maps? [regardless of how many did so… it seems to be the most logical thing to do, right?]
            IMO, not unlike the Q&A about sealing the jar and not underwater… fenn could be saying… a good map is mentioned in the book. Hence the idea; you have a location… now find the clue references.

            But here’s a kicker, some might like to think that the “map” is the location IN THAT state. I have to wonder if the ‘Type of Location’ could refer to another state and the map is only the ‘idea’ of a NF. Then we add in other things stated; N of SF. for example. Even ATF’s that indicate, more than 8.25 miles N of SF.
            What would this line of thinking lead you to believe [ as to MT, for example, but it’s not because this would be subtle at all ]?

            I personally think many want this to be easy, and fenn is giving out answers… so the look in the book hoping for the answers [ for anything ] to just be there. Then the idea, they discovered a Ah,Ha moment and run for the hills. Only later to complain the ATF and the book contradict each other.
            Basically, I’m saying those “WhatIF” everyone is looking for might not be that smack in the face they think they found.

            Just food for thought…

          • Ken said…Sure…a backstory could describe a set of events, but usually involve describing the previous life and experiences of a *character* in an upcoming set of events or story.

            You mean like f and his poem? Also, would be true if, like some searchers, the first stanza might be about some other character(s) in addition to f.

          • Yes Fundamental…that is my feeling as well. Seeker… My feeling is that the book is not going to hand feed anything to a searcher that will help them get closer to the treasure…with the exception of the poem. I think the searcher is left with the task of becoming intimate enough with the poem and the book to the point where an idea or set of principles from the stories in the book helps the searcher unravel what the clues in the poem actually mean. The location of the first clue will then present itself.

            8/8/2013 EIS Radio

            “And then go back and read the book again looking for hints that are in the book that are going to help you with the clues that are in the poem That’s the best advice that I can give. You have to find out- you have to learn where the first clue is. They get progressively easier after you discover where the first clue is.”

        • The map was left out of that question. If any searcher 500 years from now or next weekend doesn’t have a map to then marry the clues to then they may have no chance of finding this treasure. IMO the question was written in such a way as to suggest that one must have the back story. And Forrest just obliged the questioner and lead them down a rabbit hole.

          • Just a thought on using the book to inform the clues… Assume you are at a clue point on the map, now the searcher needs something from the book to guide him towards the next clue point…. EX: assume you are at your ‘canyon down’ point…. now use the book to determine the ‘not far but too far to walk’ distance…. Could it be 50 miles? Thats too far to walk, but not too far along on a 1600 mile trip. Or maybe it is the distance Skippy flew his plane to Hebgen lake. Or maybe…. well, thats my idea of how the book is used as back-story to inform the clues.

            The hardest one of course is WWWH….I’d reveal my thoughts on that, but my N.J. muse told me to fogedaboutit, so I’m just gonna thank Mr. Fenn for the fun of it.

            Thank you Mr. Fenn, for the fun of it. (Commas matter.) And a politically correct Happy Holidays to all of you. OS2.

          • This is the only reply button available so.

            FD, Seannm and others,
            FD wrote: A map, to me, isn’t what f is referring to as the missing important info. That’s because f says in his reply that the words in the poem now aren’t enough to reasonable allow one to find the tc. Before, it was “Emily, All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.“

            To my knowledge Forrest has never said
            that the words in the poem now aren’t enough to reasonable allow one to find the tc. But he has said that
            All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem.“

            When he said all of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem he was assuming that anyone searching for the treasure knew the back story or they wouldn’t be searching. The nope, nope question was assuming that a person didn’t have the back story so how would they know that the poem was even a treasure map? So of course F said nope because the person would only have the poem not knowing its purpose.

            The first stanza doesn’t provide that purpose either, nor does it provide a location to the first clue in the poem or the physical location of the first clue. Remember that each clue refers to a geological location.

            The first clue we all know to be WWWH and the clues are contiguous or consecutive from there. Could it be that the last clue is in stanza one. Begin with WWWH and then return to the beginning of the poem and end with AHORNAO? At riches new and old may be the exact hidey place. All my comments are JMO.

            Don’t get bogged down with ATF statements. IMO all of the info needed is in the poem, assuming that you know the back story. Good luck.

          • ManOwar, thanks for your comments.

            I was just saying that to me how f answered the nope, nope question can be easily taken to mean that now something isn’t enough to find the tc with the poem. If you think the poem doesn’t involve an introduction or back story that’s ok. Others might.

            You’d still have to figure that as we get to 10 billion people on the planet (present and future) that there’s one of them that can figure out from reading the poem the first time that it can very possibly be about a treasure hunt (taking into account they haven’t heard of the Chase). It doesn’t take a great leap of reasoning to infer that from some of the (key) words in the poem.

            I think the first stanza provides more than you think but who knows.

        • I’ll be the first to admit that my attention span likely paralleled Forrest’s in school. But after a short tutorial on ‘double negatives’ (nope nope), is it possible that he was ribbing us a little and actually answered in the affirmative?

        • Maybe we are not working with absolutes here. There is no 100% certainty as we push the edges to find a suitable wwh. In other words, we can’t call 100% match on a clue that we don’t have or won’t receive confirmation on. I think we are only working with 60 to 80% possibilities.

      • Not starting over poison.
        I like my general area and most of the clues especially my 1st 5.
        If you “forget the clues” you’re lost.

    • Hi Jake, I thought Mr. Fenn said, “less than a few miles”. Which is completely subjective, and can mean (any distance), that’s less than a few miles. It tells us nothing useful, IMO.

    • Jake,

      Yes all your questions have answers. As one so call Floridian to another, the poem clues really are straightforward. Most searchers have a hard time realizing this. Of course all I ever state “is my opinion” but there are some facts in my journey that helps confirm, or else I would have been done with the chase many years ago.

      I will throw out some partial answers to your questions as I believe are relative to solving this quest.

      The start WWWH area is comparatively a small area compared to the distance you go down in the “canyon down”, and this is the main area that is special to Forrest, not to say that the whole poem journey is not special to him.

      Width of the canyon has expanded somewhat over many years, and the logistics of how you can travel it can have a few answers, as stated by Forrest.

      The “put in” below the home of Brown is relatively small compared to the area you are in to get to that point, and you are doing just was it says.

      Geographical features – yes, but there are other features.

      “Up your creek” does start on the left side of the creek and is also the side where you find “heavy loads”.

      Now to confuses you, Forrest parked in proximity to WWWH & HOB. If you can figure how and where that can be, then you can solve the poem

      Again these are just partial answers to what you asked, whether they mean anything to anyone but me is to find out.
      I can not elaborate any further on my statements so a discussion on what I said won’t happen. As always what I say is “just food for thought” for your winter hibernation , as all posts here are at this time.

      Have a good holiday Jake.

    • Jake- “Is there anything in the poem that indicates the size of these clues or geographical features?”

      Although not ‘in the poem’, I believe f makes a gesture in the book relative to size regarding one of your listed clues/features. And I must say I’d be a little surprise if you hadn’t already picked-up on that.

      • I’ve picked up on a lot of things in TTOTC size wise but they all seem to go in different directions when you open a jar of cockroaches.

        I’m not a believer that all the info you need to find the treasure is in the poem unless you plan to live 1000 years but those that use the book to help with the clues and don’t use locations, don’t have a clue and may have to live 10000 years.

        Seems like it’s about places and their size which would include geography of course.

        I don’t know of any saying where “paddle” would be used without water and “loads” are something carried. Water high is up every creek that is not dry so must be something more specific like a waterfall or a lake or pond.

        I don’t subscribe to paddling ones butt as being the answer.

        • Jake no paddle is where – the creek ends at hob- where the water is being released in to the creek- in other words that’s as far as you go – before turning north to waters high – I think that heavy loads is the high way and that starts at wwwh all the way to the parking lot

          • frank,
            If “heavy loads” in the poem is a high way or highway, I will eat my hat twice after a movement.

            I absolutely think “heavy loads” is something natural.
            Not power lines, outhouses, waste stations or anything man made.

            Yes I saved it.

          • Don’t worry about saving my hat frank. There will be plenty to go around.
            If I was you, I would look at other natural ideas as clues.

          • Jake for me there is no other clue but – that its a highway – when you get to the end of the creek at hob – to me it means take the highway north to waters high – waters high is north of hob- oh and thanks for the hat offer – but I think ill pass

          • jake seeing that the poem is a (road) map I cant see why heavy loads is not a highway – if im driving and I come to a dead end at hob which way would I go from there – the poem tells me to take heavy loads( highway )to waters high – that is just how I understand it

          • frank,

            How do you figure the poem is just a road map?

            The poem is a map of course, just a road map, NOPE.

          • frank,
            I don’t think the poem is a road map although I think it’s best to use roads where it’s too far to walk if there are any.

            Maybe you are thinking the vehicles that travel on roads are heavy loads. I just don’t see how the road itself is a heavy load.

  10. ok Jake the clues that pertain to wwww- are–if you take iin the canyon – its telling you that wwwh is at the bottom -(canyon down)-put in be low is also wwwh- if its below hob its also wwwh at the bottom of the canyon also known as canyon down- I don’t think the creek -has any thing with getting in – crossing or any thing its just a creek that’s in the canyon frank

      • frank,

        How about trails, for one, there maybe different types.
        One thing comes to mind also, how do you determine a road is just for heavy loads and others not?

        • Charlie -ff said he drove parked then he put botg – the poem does not say botg till the end – so heavyloads to would mean highway – but that’s just me Charlie im not trying to change any ones mind you go with what your mind tells you

    • Jake thank you -the vehicles that travel on the road are heavy loads – but that is the way of saying highway heavy loads – im sure he wasn’t going to say – get on the highway and go to waters high- I know that you knew what I was trying to say or did say or didn’t say

      • frank,

        Its apparent that you feel that the complete route of the poem is driven. Can you tell me how a family is going to get out in nature or a single person to enjoy the outdoors and nature riding around in a car?

        Sure you have to drive to get to the area, but don’t discount walking part of the way. When or where F parked the car along the route could have happened anywhere in the poem’s route to the tc.

        Just Say’n

        The other thing that bothers me is if you start at wwwh & then go down a canyon end up at hoB and wwwh is near or at hoB when too far to walk is in between hoB & wwwh. Seems to me no matter how you look at it, it’s physically impossible for that to happen geographically.

        Seems to me you’re tossing darts or thinking in an abstract way.

        • Charlie – hob and wwwh are not close to each other that’s why it says- not far but to far to walk- I would say it means to drive – with the poem you can also go from wwwh to the end where the tc is with botg where it would take a couple of days to get there- if you want to enjoy the outdoors and nature – I my self would drive to the end then walk a half a mile to the tc and to my car

      • frank,
        Have you ever seen a bicycle on that road?
        So maybe, sometimes heavy loads and light loads?
        A road or highway doesn’t always support heavy vehicles so I hope bikes are banned from your clue, otherwise seems like a bust.

        • Jake – heavy loads just means highway or road – it doesn’t mean what type of vehicle is on the road to make it a road its heavy loads that makes it a road or highway

          • Frank;

            When Forrest says “JUST heavy loads AND water high…”

            “JUST” To me this seems to imply two PLACES. How can a highway that goes for miles and miles be a PLACE?

            It almost seems like you could not find a logical PLACE that wouls be a “Heavy Loads” PLACE, so you took the easy way out and decided to call the highway your HL PLACE. Just sayin’ – and I could be wrong – JDA

          • JDA – I would say that you are wrong to me – I agree that waters high is a place – but if you are driving how are you going to get to waters high – a high way is not a place I never said that – what I did say that heavy loads it a highway JDA there is no easy way out with this poem – it took me at least two years to figure that heavy loads was a highway

          • Heavy roads and motors high.
            I do agree with you have to drive through some of the clues even though the poem seems to take you through water but you don’t have to.

            It seems like some completely ignore “Not far, but too far to walk”.

            Donkey up!

            I do not like any New Mexico complete solve after Fenn’s statement from NM. “Do you have an airplane?”
            Now there’s a heavy load that can fly.

    • frank,
      IF I follow correctly… you go from wwwh, which is already below the hob, and you drive to a point where you get out of your vehicle and walk to the blaze… is that the basic idea?

      The problem is; only the first two clues have been / were solved when folks come to within 500′ of the chest. Doesn’t your theory require more than two clues solved to get to that point? I would say it has to… So, other folks would have needed clues 3 and possible some other beyond, to get to that place to park. But fenn claims they didn’t have any other clues correct in their order. How can those searcher all end up that close without having any other clues in the correct order to do that?
      Something had to tell all those folks where to stop their cars [driving] and where to go [using your theory]… Does that really seem likely that searchers drive [ in your solve 50 plus miles ] to the ‘same spot’ by chance and still managed to get close to the chest-?- without other clues in their correct order.

      imo, once you’re at wwh [first two clues], it’s botg only. To drive anywhere, you need a stopping point, and that requires a third clues, or more, for anyone who ‘drives’ away from the first two clues… for them to get 500′ or 200′

      “people have figure the first couple of clues and unfortunately ‘walked’ past the treasure chest”
      The excuse some have said is, they drive by the chest, is in direct conflict with fenn’s comment[s]………. driving from the first two clues requires more clues solved correctly to get folks within the range of 500′ or less.

      • Seeker – ff didn’t walk from wwwh to where he hid the tc – he drove – and not stopping any where – only where he parked his car and that was the last place -and that was when he got in the wood – he drove passed hob – no paddle waters high the blaze – the persons that were close to the chest – maybe found the blaze and in the wood where the tc is but didn’t go far enough to the north- they might of known the 2 clues but didn’t know just where it was hid

        • You danced around the searchers themselves, Frank… for them to have a place to stop at they need a clue other than the first two.

          “people have figure the first couple of clues and unfortunately ‘walked’ past the treasure chest”
          and other comment that searcher were on site at the first two clues, they told fenn where they were and that’s how he knows … some getting within 500′ others 200′ from the chest.

          Tell me how searcher can drive [from WWH] 50 plus miles ‘with no other clues to guide them there,’ and just happen upon the blaze and/or be that near the chest.

          But here’s the kicker… IF, big IF, someone can drive to; near the blaze or chest, without knowing other clues, then fenn telling us to follow the clues precisely is false… meaning we can literally skip clues… right?

          • how can they be that close if the first 2 clues are wwwh and hob – next you cant skip clues even if you wanted to just like you have to go – by wwwh there is no other way going in or out- from hob all the clues line up from there going north one right after the other there is no way to skip period – to tell forrest where they were doesn’t mean they knew – I can go where the tc is – in the wood and get 100 ft from it but if im just looking for it and don’t – know just where he hid it doesn’t mean any thing to me – cause hes not going to tell me that it was me that was that close

        • frank,

          You said that wwwh is below the hoB. Is that in elevation? Is it when you are looking at a map is hoB north and wwwh south for examle?

          I clearly don’t understand wwwh is below hoB as you say.

          • Charlie – if you turn at wwwh going to hob – and east is where wwh is – you are going west so the poem says put in below hob – is east – what its saying that hob and wwwh are east and west of each other – so from wwwh don’t go looking for hob north or south of wwwh- go west

          • hob is a little higher in elevation – cause the water from the creek is flowing down (east) to wwwh I hope I was able to help you Charlie

  11. I’d like to know what FF includes in his definition of a “human trail”.
    Does he mean only a trail that is walked/hiked upon?
    Some folks may believe that a human trail may be one that is typically used by humans in vehicles, such as aircraft, trains, automobiles, and the like. Is a freeway a “human trail”?

    I hope you remember that when FF mentioned a “human trail”, he didn’t use the word
    “proximity”. Instead, he used a combination of letters that, according to my dictionary, is not
    a valid English word. He said “proximaty”, which to my limited knowledge, is no more a
    valid word than “friggamoaney”. He could have, instead, told us that the treasure chest is not in close “friggamoaney” to a human trail. Of course, this kind of talk would have been
    interpreted as nonsense, right? Nonsense talk does not necessarily mean that we should
    treat it like clear talk. Since FF said “proximaty” in his writing, rather than in vocal speech, I think that some searchers believe that FF wants them to think that the treasure chest is not close to a human trail. But he didn’t say that this was/is the case, in his “proximaty” written statement. I have no good reason to believe that there is no human trail in very close proximity to where the TC is. Please don’t be too careless in your interpretation(s) of what FF has said. All part of my opinion.

    • Are you speaking of the Hail Truman comment from F?

      I mean that’s literally as easy as the word play gets in this thing.


  12. Jake – please pay no mind to my comment above – I had just come from lubbuck to check on my cancer – came home tool my meds -and one puts me way out on left field – so please pay no mind – not that you do any ways frank

    • frank,

      How well is your recovery coming along? Its been a while since you spoke of your fight with cancer. I certainly hope that you are getting better.

      Please take care.

      • CharlieM thanks for asking – that is nice of you to do so – so far so good Charlie they didn’t find any cancer – im good for the next 4 months with this Dr I have to see another Dr by the end of the month he checks me to just to make sure the other Dr didn’t miss any thing thank god it all looks good – that was really nice of you to ask- thank you made me feel real good—– frank

          • Thank you JDA – thanks for wishing me well it was nice of you . to tell me-
            you wish me continued good health- thank you

        • frank it’s good to hear that all is going well, like FF I hope there would be no further indications of caner and a full recovery for you.

          Stay well my friend.

        • It’s great to hear you’re a survivor, Frank. I hope you continue to be well for a very long time.

          • Thanks Linda im hanging in there – im a real happy man cause there are people like wishing me well – and I know that God is watching over me again thanks Linda

          • Ken thanks- my recovery wouldn’t be- as nice if it were not for people like you wishing me well – its great to have you as a friend thanks Ken

          • Mr. Frank-
            I am happy for your good news. I will pray that God will watch over you.

            In my chosen avocation I frequently sign a death warrant for far too many good people.

            Best wishes to ya!


    • That explains your left field comments.
      Hope you stay healthy and happy and be careful with drugs.

      • thanks Jake just seen your comment yea them drugs can through you for a flip just haven’t gotten used to them-thanks Jake it was nice to hear from you

  13. In regards to Mr. Fenn’s comment of his gut feeling wavering, I looked up baby names and came up with Waverley.

    55. Waverly:

    Waverly is an easy breezy name with a lovely flow. This English surname, with smooth and laid back sound means ‘meadow of quivering aspen’ .

    My new nieces name is Presley which I know means priest’s meadow. So I think the “ly/ ley” part means meadow. That would leave the waiver part meaning Aspen?

    Fenn has talked about Aspen a few times.

    • Heidini, Quaking Aspen, AKA Populus tremuloides – was growing if Fenn’s back yard near his pond, and is a favorite building material of the Brown Beaver. In the western United States, this tree rarely survives at elevations lower than 1,500 feet (460 m) due to hot summers experienced below that elevation, and is generally found at 5,000–12,000 feet (1,500–3,700 m). It grows at high altitudes as far south as Guanajuato, Mexico. The further you travel north in the Rockies, the lower the stands of Aspens, in the fall of each year, they are ablaze in golden yellow which is a blinding display of color, I once asked ff in person if the blaze was a living thing, he never answered me.

      In New Mexico the aspen groves range up to about 10,200′ and some scientist who study living organisms conclude that a stand of Aspens are all one organism, ie one tree, and can be as old as 100,000 years or more.

      One such immense grove in northern New Mexico and Southern Colorado is seen by thousands of tourist each year who by a ticket to ride on this scenic RR, a very special place, there is a large bell shaped granite memorial to a famous president at this site, https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/James_A._Garfield it is massive and beautifully carved (grave) memorial marker that sits at the entrance to large tunnel on the Cumbress and Toltec RR at the Toltec Gorge, see https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-GD4vhA3No

      A hobby of mine is making videos for US Immigration and Naturalization Service ceremonies at the US National Parks, yes they pay me to do it, and a copy is given to each new US Citizen, it is a patriotic duty for me, but this one above is not a Natl Park, it should be, it is in New Mexico at the Carson National Forest near Colorado Border, all national forest , and not human trail to this point at 10,199′ where I shot this in a snowstorm on October 9, 2017. Also I wrote about this location in “Winter Thoughts by Tom Terrific” in March 2017 so search it on this blog.

      Oddly, shortly thereafter ff posted the most scrapbooks I can remember, first one featured a trainbell on a tower, reminding us about Eric Sloane and his book “The sound of Bells” scrapbook 172. Coincidence? Maybe, Seeker thinks I make this stuff up, but Zap may be a on board with my border theory, that train weaves in and out of the border of NM and CO 11 times on its 64 mile journey, take any geography lesson and borders come into play, try 32 degrees as WWWH, so why would an Aspen Grove be the Blaze? How could a train track be a blaze? Q)Mr. Fenn, Which direction does the Blaze face? North, South, East or West? Curious. Foxy

      A)I didn’t take a radial off of the blaze Foxy. I’m thinking it may not be any of those directions. f”*


      • Hey Tom… I always enjoy your stories about the Cumbres and Toltec and the journey it takes through a beautiful area. Very fortunate that folks do what they do to preserve that train and the history behind it.
        In this post you say; *try 32 degrees as WWWH,*. What does that refer to in general?

        • Ken, the border of Texas, New Mexico and Old Mexico is @ 32 degrees latitude, water halts at that degree, the Rio Grand River becomes the border and it is called the Rio Bravo in Mexico. Travel 5 degrees latitude north, and you are at the next border, 37 degrees, see a photo of state line bronze marker I posted on the Book of Blazes, by TT.

          How many stanzas in the poem; 6 how many make geographic references IMO, 5, how can we get within a few steps of the TC? Knowing the exact coordinates, longitude and latitude, there may not be any other way for someone to geographical nail down a tiny patch of earth so exactly ie within steps of Indulgence.

          “It may be a while before my buried jars and bells are discovered because there is no visible sign that I had been there. None are near populated areas, and landscapes change over time with growing vegetation and blowing leaves. But I am comfortable with the thought that eventually all 8 will be found.

          It helps to know something about Rocky Mountain geography when making plans to search for my treasure. Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve. Google Earth cannot help with the last clue.

          If we knew where the 8 jars/bells were buried, we could imagine that a tangent between them might cross at the 9th burial, the final clue, where Indulgence rests. In most states the least populated areas are at their borders, so boundaries and borders are probably in the mix for the correct solve IMHO.


          • Tom Terrific, I always enjoy your posts! You are very practical. Do you have a relative living in San Luis? Would love to hear from you; just curious. Otherwise merry Christmas.

  14. The book Seventeen Dollars a Square Inch, written by FF and illustrated by ES, I would consider to be a hint as to where the tc is hidden. I’m only referring to its title. Buying the book is too expensive, let alone sometimes hard to find.

    The $17 a square inch I believe is in reference to National Forest land which is public domain, that could and can mean the tc is in a NF.

    So, for my theory is in a NF, all other lands like an Tribal, NP, BLM and Private etc.. would not contain the tc. Some would argue that the tc could be on BLM land. I will say that a lot of BLM land is privately held and only manged by the BLM and in conjunction with the EPA, which is not a good choice.

    I strongly believe the only boundaries that one should look within is the boundary set by F and the NF that is within his boundary. “take the chest and go in peace”, means no issues will come up after one finds the chest and this is on public domain land which is the NF.

    We’ve had many posts on legality, that is not what I am talking about, it is about free and easy access with in the boundary of the NF which also includes some wilderness areas. IMO the tc resides within a National Forest, and that also includes wwwh. Albeit some of the clues may not be in a NF, it’s like moving from one NF with a gap in between to another NF. Food for thought?

    Just Say’n

    • CharlieM, as posted above, the possibilities of a bell. Whether you think so or not, he did bury a bell somewhere on land managed by the BLM. If he’s willing to do that, then that leaves that type of land in the mix. Cannot discount that type of land. Private, tribal, protected land, yes. I don’t think he buried bells in someone’s backyard, or hid a chest.
      NF land gives the possibilities of him being seen, I think he wanted to be as secretive as possible. My guess would have BLM land in the forefront.

    • CharlieM,

      You described your reasoning for a NF area. You used just “take the chest and go in peace” as no legal matters involved. OK, no problems. But it’s a bit of a stretch for me.
      I’ll add; “If you are brave and in the wood I give you title to the gold.”
      Brave in this case could refer to our land, home of the brave, line of thinking… open to the public, idea. Wood in this case would refer to woodland or forest [ size is not in question ]. Title is not only of ownership, but who’s land, the chest lays in wait, is on. In this idea, in a Nation’s Forest.
      Could this be the idea of how we whittle down a location [in part, anyways]? Then take that idea, aligned with hints to help with the clues [ imo, all the clue’s location, rather than, individual clues deciphering ].

      All sounds reasonable, right? Here’s one question… mainly because I don’t know the answer, nor going to bother with checking it out… * Can the rules be changed? Can law be added, making a find report-able, illegal to obtained or removed?
      These may have been questions fenn thought about, and seek answers for. However, are NPs not our properties as well, regardless of some rule? [ reminds me of; secreting a soda can on allotted 2 acre parcel, comment ].

      Whatever we can think of, where we think it may all end up, I’m gonna go with the idea… what if there are not legal questions? IMO, IF there exist a legal problem in the present, I chuck the idea…Not on private land, on reservations, are just two I will not cross, line of thinking.

      My point is; Thinking it is in a location for the line, “just take the chest and go in peace… doesn’t really stand on its own to be any specific area. I would need more, personally. I hope my suggestion of stanza 6 might help. If it does, ya owe me, If not? Ya never heard of me…

      • Seeker,

        No legal rules, no law added. I think F would not put anyone in jeopardy. What I was talking about the tc being hidden in a NF as possibly best bet, without interference from anyone. That’s being thoughtful of F IMO.

        Stanza 6 is important, stanza 4, as well. I really did not want to bring up legal, NF are common domain to use safely, not destroy, non residential. One pretty much has free run to do anything like a treasure hunt. We know that the one who finds the tc now owns it free and clear, transfer of ownership is in the poem.

        I in no way want to get into taxes!

        Just my thoughts,
        Just Say’n

        p.s. I now, am truly going to relax and cheers!

        • I wasn’t talking ownership of the chest, as much as ‘title’ meaning ‘we the people’ own the land. So it works.
          “Brave and in the wood would” translate to the idea of a NF… home of the “brave” – we the “people” ..and..
          in the wood – forest “National or the Nation’s forest is a NF. “Title” {in this idea} means our land… in theory.
          Stanza 6 never made any sense to me, reading it as; we need to be ‘fearless’ about going into the spooky woods or something.

          In part – this is why I can read FTINPFTM, as something different than a place the meek-ish wouldn’t go, or a bible verse.
          It could mean the USA section of the RM’s. The “backbone” of the RM’s – the CD. etc. But not a place we should fear or worry about.
          And, connect with the idea of a NF. if stanza 6 can be understood as explained.

          The legality part was only a thought to legislative /political / policy changes… which we have little real control over. However, at present, that doesn’t seem to be a problem {imo}, regarding a NF.

          My BSing is an attempt to see how the poem [in all its sections / stanzas / lines / sentences] could be interpret /confirm the idea of an area of interest. Or… trying to think the right thoughts.

          For example; we have the L&C story, taken place in the GNF. Some may jump the gun and run to this location thinking this ‘is it’ However, that seems a bit too, in your face, to be subtle. But the ‘idea’ still allows other ‘NF’ to stay in play, and be connected to the poem.
          **So the idea is, we have a hint in the book, something in the poem that might confirm the hint, and a line in the poem to be deciphered from both.

          Just rambling and rumbling…

    • $17 a square inch is an artist’s joke – it’s what art dealer ff told artist Sloane he was selling his paintings for in the gallery, like piecework. As if a small masterpiece could be worth less than a mediocre big painting. As if an accomplished writer’s work sold by the word instead of the merits of the writing itself.

      The book was published in 2007.

      What is your basis for connecting the title to NF land, CM? Just a hunch, or is there some other connection I’m not aware of?


        • When I imagine a tie, I sometimes visualize a bow tie.

          And, of course, since I am suggestible, whenever I see the
          word HUNCH, it makes me imagine a cat arching its back.

          “No applause, just throw money.”

          Just kidding about that last line (in quotes).
          This message is all part of my opinion, which did not originate from a plate of spaghetti with/without meatballs.

  15. Hi All. Just want your thoughts on WWWH. The last two words, Waters Halt, anagram perfectly to Start Whale. My take on this is Whale Lake Montana. Whale appears several times in Forrest’s writings. He mentions his Father beaching him. There is also his book signing at the Moby Dickens book store, as in Moby Dick. There is also the hit song from the B52’s ,Love Shack and the Cadillac that is as big as a whale.
    Anyway, just random thoughts.

    • John R.

      Once you start down the anagram trail, where do you NOT use anagrams?

      Just because Waters Halt can be anagrammed into something – What about Begin it where? Would Forrest have picked only a few words in the poem that should be anagrammed, and we are to ignore the other words? This does not make sense to me – JMO – JDA

      • Agreed, anagrams could be anything. Throw in abbreviations, and sounds like and the possibilities would be to vast. Then again, f does misspell also, so throw that in the mix. Not possible. But, doesn’t mean he didn’t throw one in here or there. Would only be as a hint though. The clues are too specific.

    • John,
      Not many here encourage the use of anagrams or other word play. I’ll be the voice of dissent though.

      If a literal reading of the poem led us to the treasure I think it would have been found by now. Even with multiple meanings to words there just aren’t that many possibilities and I haven’t seen a literal interpretation that was specific enough to guide one to within feet of the chest “with confidence”.

      So in my book all word play is fair game provided the base material used is the lines in the poem. So no substitutions or synonyms first and then play with them, but since you have an exact anagram with the words as written it would work within the bounds I set for myself.

      But the most important reason I have for adopting this approach is that playing with words is way more fun than reading dictionaries. IMO

      • Folks ignore dictionaries at their peril, IMO. On the other hand, though,
        this treasure hunt is supposed to be fun. So don’t work hard for the prize.
        Let others work hard, and they will find the prize. It’s all “win-win”, right?
        All IMO.

  16. I think the major problem is, we can’t prove or disprove anyones solve or ideas until the treasure is found.

    • Kinda, Sorta… but not really true [ truthful ?]
      If someone says their solve leads to an outhouse, I’m gonna say their full of crap. If a solve lands in water, I know they are all wet. In Utah or Idaho, you know their solve is full of holes.
      Or we can use that excuse 85% to 15% thingy, and make ourselves feel good.
      This idea that anyone’s solve is possible is nothing more than a feel good, polite comment. Some thought [in the beginning, before the clarification of the “RM’s] Yosemite NP was in play.. still N. of SF… slightly. Or now Canada, poof!
      Where would many solves be today… without the many ATF’s?

      • I think the major problem is, we can’t prove or disprove anyones solve or ideas until the treasure is found.

        • Just so, Dr Faulker.

          There is no feedback, positive or negative.

          ** ** ** Q – “Do expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?”

          A – “No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.” ff ** ** **

          Same applies to the rarely questioned ‘brilliance’ of the poem. Until someone comes home with the chest, it’s impossible to know whether the design of the chase puzzle is a masterpiece or a mess, or something in between.

        • Repeating it does not make your comment true, Jake.
          You had a solve that ended with the chest in water… well?
          Prior to; the chest is not under water, comment, I debated the idea because of another comment in a long ago Q&A. “Although I’m not ready to say the chest is not in water…”
          Regardless of how you personally feel or felt, or even what I feel or felt… fenn actually told us the chest is not in water years back. He just wasn’t ready to say it, Although, he did just that. There would be no other reason for that statement to be said at that time.
          How many searchers kept the idea that the chest laid in water for years?
          Just repeating your comment doesn’t make it factual. Some solves can be disproved, from what we have been told. { solve, in this case, is an ending, a completion, it’s not, about parts of a solve couldn’t be correct. }

          I can say the same for folks who change a dam to be a reservoir with a man-made blockage [be it dirt and stone or concrete]. Changing the name doesn’t change the fact, no dam dam… beaver created or other wise. Yet a few folks still have that as a first clue.

          Are we being realistic here -?- or is the idea, anything at all is possible?
          Then we might want to invite JayA back. He had a great ending to his solve, once ya got past the alien egg.

          • This comment is true as fact:
            I think the major problem is, we can’t prove or disprove anyones solve or ideas until the treasure is found.

          • Yet, your own solve [at one time] that involved the chest being in water was disproved. Not chest needed.
            If a solve has a dam for WWH it has been kicked. No chest needed.
            If the treasure in your solve is below a man-made object, disproved. No chest needed.
            If your solve end in Canada… disproved… The list goes on… does it matter how or who made it so?
            LOL your comment can’t be “fact” if it was already proven to be wrong. Ya know… by the guy who created it all.
            Using that information “we” also can disprove a theory, solve involving what “we” know as “fact”

            Proof/prove of the chest is a horse of a different color… you’re talking about solves… theories, ideas, call them what ya like, many solves have been proven to be wrong… unless fenn is not telling the truth?

          • No chest.
            No proof.

            He’s not telling the whole truth and it’s also how he remembers things.

          • Ok… How do you know he’s not telling the whole truth?
            It’s easy to say; ‘he’s not telling the whole truth’, but as I shown is some examples ‘we’ can proof our own solves… unless fenn is deliberately lying about; not under water, or the chest is not in Canada etc etc.
            How can many of his statements not be the whole truth? Does that imply, the idea, the chest could be ‘in’ water-?- because he stated “not under water”?

            If that’s the case, I have great solve in TX in a graveyard… not quite in the mountains or north of SF… but hey, It must still be in play, apparently I shouldn’t believe what we have been told as the full truth.

            The only part of your comment that is true, is the part ~ “I {you} think the major problem is”

            You said ” we can’t prove or disprove anyone’s **solve or ideas**”
            I shown for, the most part, we can do just that… Unless you want to bring in the excuse of that 85% thingy… which in of it self is not proof of being true to fenn’s comments.

            I might add; a solve is a completed task, having the answers… Which as not been done {as far as we know} Hence the idea of the term ‘general solve’ being suggested.
            My point is; “we” can disprove some of our idea.

            End of commentary….

          • Seeker: “Ok… How do you know he’s not telling the whole truth?”
            Easy. Just look at all the inconsistencies in his books & statements.

            Do I think the chest is in Texas? Heck no! But until it’s found we don’t really know, do we?

          • Fenn has said that all he knows are the facts. He said in the same breath that if you want the truth….go next door to the psychology department. Fenn has remained active in the Chase and I think he has been as clear as he can be without backing himself into the corner. I am grateful for his interactions, but remain aware that the more he says, the muddier the water gets.

    • Hey Jake…your statement is true except I really don’t see where there is a problem. What problem are you referring to? I mean, Fenn has made many comments over the years that have helped to eliminate some ideas which do seem to disprove some theories. And yet…some of his comments have only widened the divide because of his vague word choices. His safety comments and some of the more direct eliminations have ruled out quite a bit of the area in the Rockies. I still don’t see the problem… differences of ideas are a great device to further discovery.

  17. to get to hob from wwwh you have to go up in elevation – to get to hob – there is a canyon a creek – a highway – the water from the creek goes down hill – and meets with another body of water and that to me would be wwwh – if the water from the creek goes down hill – that to me is canyon down – and that would put wwwh at the bottom of the canyon- so take it in you turn there -at the bottom of the canyon and go to hob and its not far but to far to walk – all is my opinion

    • frank, it does say in the poem to Begin it WWWH And take it in the canyon “down”,
      That tells me that WWWH is higher in elevation than the “put in” is but HOB could be higher in elevation.

      • Jake if the water from the creek is going is away from hob to wwwh I would think that hob is higher and wwwh is lower because of canyon down meaning the bottom of the canyon- I think that put in- means to turn there-at wwwh

        • I guess we interpret the poem differently.
          I tend to go with a more straightforward approach from point A to B. I’m following directions.

          Begin your quest @ WWWH and take your quest down in elevation in the canyon till you can find or see HOB and then put in a river or waterway below HOB (You don’t physically have to do this).

          • Jake wwwh is the gate way to the rest of the clues – there is no other way but through wwwh- coming or going from hob that’s where you start- straightforward from point A to point B -wwwh is only a way to get you off the road you are in – and puts you on the right road to hob you are right everyone interprets the poem diffirently

          • “coming or going from hob that’s where you start”
            You lost me there frank.
            Seems like you begin at HOB.

          • Jake you start at wwwh – what I meant to say is that from hob all the clues line up or you go straight forward as you say – as far as coming or going it was meant for wwwh its the gate way to every thing

          • lol Jake my bad just forget about coming or going – what I meant to say is that from hob all the clues line up or go straight forward sorry Jake

    • I don’t believe it’s necessary to go to “home of Brown”. But knowing what/where
      it is could be useful, I believe.

  18. Three years ago today, I started on a new adventure – The thrill of the Chase. Thanks to all who have encouraged me in the most fun thing I have ever been a part of – Merry Christmas all – JDA

  19. Anyone cares to share ideas about “put in below the Home of Brown “ the distance between home of Brown and the box of treasure thanks

    • Admir;

      I have what some might call a two-stage solve. Stage one is a “Big Picture” solve. and the distance between hoB and the TC place is a bit under 10 miles. In the “Small Area Solve” – Once I get to where Indulgence “SHOULD” be, but isn’t, I have to go through the poem one last time. In my SAS the distance is less than 100′ – closer to 50′ actually – JDA

          • Admir;

            Draw a line. This line will represent the “Canyon Down”.
            On the far right end – label it WWWH or (A)
            3/4 of the way left, label it hoB or (B)
            At the far left end, call it Put-In or (c)

            If the line is the Canyon, you are “putting in” Below the hoB point aren’t you? – JDA

          • Hey-O Admir –

            In terms of topography – the ‘lay of the land’ – *below* something would imply ‘downhill and/or downstream’ from it.

            In archaeology, the stratigraphy of an excavation could have *below* imply ‘older than.’

            For example, if you find pottery, say, at one level of a dig, and then digging a few feet further down you find pottery of a different style, the implication would be (absent other contrary indications) that the lower pottery (the layer *below*) is from an older occupation or generation than the pottery in the levels above it.

            (I throw that chronological effect in there for a searcher who enjoys that kind of thing.)

            That stratigraphy effect could apply to geology as well as archaeology.


  20. I’ve seen here on this blog,, that some people think that stanza 5 contains either hints or clues. I believe I can put those ideas to bed. Stanza 5 asks, “So why is it I must go and leave my trove for all to seek?”

    F has already answered the question for us in a video from, On the road with Charlie, May 8, 2017. During the interview and Cole Isaac asks F two questions, in regards to as why F hid the treasure. below is the exchange:

    Cole asks after a brief statement saying he’d rather fish than look for the treasure. Cole: “Alright, let’s talk about the treasure. Why did you do this? Why did you hide the treasure?”

    Forrest first talks about his cancer and then talks about the chest and what he filled it with and finally goes onto say: “I wanted something that was good enough to entice people, and worthwhile. I had two or three motives. My main really was starting a pretty good recession. Lots of people were losing their jobs and I wanted to give some hope. Despair was written on the headlines of every paper, and that affected me, and I wanted to give some people hope. A secondary motive was we’re a sedentary society today. We’re overweight. We’re sitting on the couch watching TV or playing with our little electronic gadgets. I don’t like what I’m seeing. I wanted the kids out into the mountains: hiking, fishing, swimming, hunting. All of those things. And I’ve done that. I think 100,000 people have been looking for my treasure since we started. Did I answer? I forgot what the question was!” f

    So there is no mystery why F hid the treasure and he did it tired and weak. The other point I would make is that all of stanza 5 has, few words that will not help in finding the treasure. Some think that all of of the stanza’s contain clues. If you want to call the stanza fluff, so be it, some refuse to believe that an entire stanza has no clues or hints. The question has been asked and answered by F.

    Just Say’n
    trying to stir things up.

    • Sorry Charlie and Jake;

      I think that stanza 5 is a clue, and very important in solving the riddles that are the poem. Without understanding what “GO” and “Leave” and “Tired” and “Weak” mean, one will not be able to get to the spot where Indulgence is secreted – JMO – JDA

      • JDA,
        Do these understandings of these words “go, leave, tired & weak” get you closer to the treasure for each or as a whole?

        Or do these words help with an actual area or place that would get you closer?

        Seems to me when you put clout in multiple words, you lose track of whether they are clues or hints. I think they are hints and not clues because they don’t point to any specific place geographically but can point to many places in the Rockies which waters down the theory.

        • Jake;

          In my solve I couple “Go” and “Tired” and “Leave” and “Weak”. So, something must go tired, and leave weak. Go can mean travel, and tired can mean wanting to get to a lower level – So, “Go tired” can mean go or travel to a lower elevation. Leave can mean depart and weak can mean watered down, like a weak or watered down drink. So, “Leave weak” could mean depart where you are at, and find a watery place. So, put together it tells me to depart from where I am at, and go to a lower elevation and seek a watery place. These instructions take me from where I am to a spot that is much, much closer to where Indulgence is secreted.

          Hope that this explains my thought processes – JMO – JDA

          • You really watered that one down JDA.
            If I have to use that many words to get to that conclusion, I will have to toss a stiff one.

            Fenn had one martini a year to remind him I think.
            I don’t think liqueur has any place in the chase.

            LOL, Maybe you’re thoughts of drinking are filtered into your solve.

            Maybe Fenn was just tired and weak after the 2 trips to hide the chest. That would make sense to a simple mind.

            You don’t need these words to think it’s at a watery place considering water seems to be important in the poem.

            You said: “So, put together it tells me to depart from where I am at, and go to a lower elevation and seek a watery place.”

            Once again, you see a personal message just for you, where you are at, and it’s telling you to go to a lower elevation and it takes you to a spot that is much, much closer to the treasure.

            You really crack me up!

          • Jake;

            You don’t put yourself into the poem as you are solving it? Putting ones self into the poem seems like a logical thing to do – at least to me .

            “Begin it…” Begin what? Begin the quest… Who’s quest? YOUR quest – certainly not Santa Clause’s or Uncle Sam’s quest … but YOUR quest – So of course, I put myself into the poem. If you do not, all I can say is good luck Jake- JMO – JDA

          • I agree to your quest theory JDA.
            But I don’t think it’s personalised just for you.

            The hints have to help with the clues and the clues get you closer to the treasure. That’s what I believe.

            If there are words in the poem that are not places or directions then I don’t think they get you closer.

            Watered down is a side track at best seeing there are millions of places that are “watered down” in the the Rockies and you have not provided any specific point.

            Happy holidays!

          • Jake;

            If you were at my site, what I state would be obvious. Forrest doesn’t name the Madison River, but if it a part of your solve, you will recognize it. If you are at a particular spot in my solve, you will understand what I reference.

            No, it is NOT personalized just for me, but it will be personalized for the person that solves the riddles of the poem, be that me or you or anyone else.

            If, as you say, “If there are words in the poem that are not places or directions then I don’t think they get you closer.”

            What I see is that what I posted are directions to and from places. Directions from one place to another that is lower in elevation, and has water associated with it. JMO – JDA

          • Jake;

            Maybe instead of saying that the poem will be personalized to the solver – Maybe a better way of saying it is that the poem IS personalized to the PLACE. The poem describes a very particular place.

            Why has Forrest said that it will not be solved on a week-end or summer break? I believe that it is because it will take several trips to a search area for the searcher to become familiar enough with his search area that he/she will be able to recognize the geography at the site with the geography portrayed in the poem.

            Hope this better describes what I was trying to say – JDA

          • JDA: “No, it is NOT personalized just for me, but it will be personalized for the person that solves the riddles of the poem, be that me or you or anyone else.”

            I guess it’s personalized just for you including many scrapbooks and other statements.

            Have a nice night.

          • Wow JDA, you got all that from that from the stanza! I’m impressed with your imagination trying to make a riddle when there is none.

            Heck I pick words out too. How about using them in context as they are written, remember the poem is straight forward. I disagree with your idea of being out of context with what is written.

            Happy holidays to you and yours.
            Good luck!

          • CharlieM;

            YUP – YUP have always had a good imagination.

            Happy holidays to you and yours as well
            And good luck to you as well!

          • Stanza 5 tells me none of those things.
            But imagination is good.
            Without imagination, we’d have less hope, and fewer words to anagram while hoping that anagrams are keys to a good solve of the poem. All IMO.

    • CharlieM, Imo the two stated reasons by Mr. Fenn and, referenced by you are accurate but, he mentioned he had 2-3 motives for hiding the TC. Imo the 3rd reason is very personal and a secret to him alone. I’ll take a shot at it though. Mr. Fenn surrounds himself with material things that remind him of his zest and desire for living. He’s said if he can’t take it with him, he doesn’t want to GO. Many have tried and, the Egyptians come to mind first. The difference between the Egyptians and Mr. Fenn is, he knows he can’t take it with him. His idea of having those special objects in the TC next to him at death, possibly may have been to comfort himself, so as not to feel so alone in his final hours. So imo, stanza 5 is straight forward, with no directions. Merry “X” mas and a Happy New Year to you also.

  21. Ken ~’Fenn has said that all he knows are the facts. He said in the same breath that if you want the truth….go next door to the psychology department. Fenn has remained active in the Chase and I think he has been as clear as he can be without backing himself into the corner. I am grateful for his interactions, but remain aware that the more he says, the muddier the water gets.’

    Ken, We muddy those water by trying to force our solves to work and not listen to facts, imo of course. The Q&A you mentioned seems to show the idea that “facts” are presented by fenn, but only if folks want to listen to those “facts” The question [ in part ] asked if the chest was in water… fenn replied [in part]; “Although I am not ready to say the treasure is not in water…” While later, fenn felt he needed to make a statement for safety reasons, the chest is not underwater. Only we have been told this many moons prior. There is no ambiguous statement in the Q&A.. it was straightforward and factual. But folks, even then, just didn’t want to listen and went diving for a 42lb anchor.

    Q ~You have mentioned sealing a bottle that is included in the chest with wax. What was your reason for doing this? Were you concerned merely for damp conditions or is the Chest hidden in water? ~ Izcajun
    Thanks for the questions Izcajun.
    A ~When I was ready to put the olive jar that contained my autobiography and two of my hairs in the treasure chest I studied the lid. It was made of tin coated steel, which is not easily oxidized in air or water. Over time those characteristics can break down.
    Although I am not ready to say the treasure is not in water, I certainly didn’t want moisture to enter the jar. So I melted a chunk of microcrystalline wax to the point that it started smoking, which meant it was at its thinnest viscosity. Then I dipped the jar in the molten wax deep enough to cover the lid and part of the jar, and held it there for several seconds. I wanted the wax to seal the threads on both the lid and the jar, but I didn’t want the heat to break the glass. After it cooled for a minute or so and the wax hardened, I repeated the process two times, increasing the wax thickness on the lid. The wax was petroleum based and won’t evaporate or deteriorate. When cold, it becomes brittle. That’s why I wanted the threads on the lid and jar clogged.
    All I know are the facts, if you want the truth go next door to the psychology department.f

    I could give other examples regarding reservations or the canyon or even having WWH known of, etc. But why bother… many will still not listen because their perfect solve would be in questioned. You said: ‘I think he has been as clear as he can be without backing himself into the corner.’
    I agree… Even when a comment is made, some folks still want to take that walk next door the room 85 P.

    • Seeker… I can’t recall why at the moment( I actually do… but won’t say)… we used to refer to it as Room 100. All kinds of *special* what-evers in there.
      There have been many examples over the years of misinterpretations made by folks in their posts. Some are called out and debated a bit…and some just go by the wayside.
      Fenn has posted many stories and answered a ton of Q’s and who really knows for sure what his *exact* intentions are, except maybe to be a part in what he created… and to have a bit of fun as well. One fact for sure is that there are more facts at our disposal than would be if he had just clammed up from the get go. Sure… the water gets muddy the more one wades through it…but at some point it is probably wise to stand on dry ground and pay extra attention.
      As you pointed out above… that’s why I made the comment about what Fenn implied with his comment. The potential fact was right there in plain sight all along…just not fitting for those that had other ideas.

      • As an add-on…. for those that may question what my intent is/was, just reading the home page here at Dal’s…the CAUTION section is great wording as an example of what I mean. Further… the Cheat Sheet at the top of the page would never really exist without Fenn’s further involvement.

      • Just a simple clarification… the room 85 P refers to the thought ‘only’ telling 85% … The psychology department is filling up fast.

  22. Important Literature: why are they important?
    We all know that Forrest mentions Fitzgerald , Hemingway and Salinger. He goes to Borders and gets Gatsby and “the bell tolls book “.
    When describing For whom the Bell Tolls, he is really talking about A Farewell to Arms. In my opinion he is trying to point out that he used a combination of these authors style to craft his poem and write his book.


    Salinger’s writing technique was very personal, so is Forrest’s. I haven’t quite fit out the Fitzgerald link but I think it has to do with the jacket for TTotC. When Fitzgerald wrote The Great Gatsby, he put some of the cover art into the book before it was finished. ( the large glasses on the billboard) . Still open for debate on that one…
    I’d love to hear opinions on this .
    We gotta discuss something until spring.
    Merry Christmas to all!

    • Hi Veronica…. since you asked, I think those 3 books represent 3 stages of Fenn’s life as presented in TTOTC… Salinger/Catcher = youth, immaturity, wanderlust, becoming yourself, forgivable, etc. Fitzgerald/ Gatsby = The Santa fe years, wealth, glitz, business ‘its who they think you are.” The Hemingway/Bells = his war years & Viet Nam being a “wrong war” (like like Bells Toll being the Farewell to Arms war). Those 3 books are a big part of TTOTC, but not all of it. Even the play, Kismet/Fate = is interesting, it’s all about quick changing fortunes… you’re up, you’re down, you’re up again. Every hand is a different deal, play your cards well and you could still lose. All those memoir chapters were interesting, fun for FF to write … but iIMO, they not all are related to the TC Chase, I think the Chase represents a debt repayment… like the waterfall visit was.
      —— I enjoy your posts Veronica. Good luck & a Happy 2019. OS2

    • Some of ff’s own live comments on the Important Literature topic are worth reviewing.

      ** ** **
      ” I’ve made some deliberate errors just to see if anybody would find them and they don’t.
      . . . .in “The Thrill of The Chase” I talk about Hemingway’s book “For Whom The Bell Tolls.” And I talked about the mud and the dead horse and whatever. I talked about it being World War One and all the terrible things that happened. But it wasn’t World War One at all. It was the Spanish Revolution. Not one person called my attention to the fact that I had named the wrong war in my book.”
      — ff at Collected Works Bookstore 23 October ’13 ** ** **

      ** ** **
      “And so, I never did read the great books. And I talk in my book about Hemingway and, and other writers that are very internationally celebrated and so I went down to a bookstore and got a couple of those books and I started to read them and I told myself these things are no good. “For Whom The Bell Tolls” – I read about a third of that thing and threw it in the trash. And I started to wonder… Why does everyone… I mean, you may think those are wonderful books, but I’m a little bit weird I have to admit that.
      But then . . . J.D. Salinger died. And Diane Sawyer’s talking about how wonderful he was that he wrote books and put them in a vault so nobody could see them. And I told myself – this is my kind of guy. So, so I went down and I bought “Catcher in the Rye” by J.D. Salinger. Uh. And I thought I was gonna like that book because I had never heard of the guy. And I said, everybody thinks the book’s pretty good and he’s nobody so, it must be a pretty good book. So I started reading it and, and I read a little bit and I put it down. And I started thinking about it, and I read some more. It took me about a day and a half to finish that book, and I wasn’t ready for it to end when it was over. I started to tell myself, uh, you know if this is a good book, if “Catcher in the Rye” is a good book, I can do that. (pause) It’s nothing but a guy talking to himself really is what it is. And I said, I can do that. And so, I started writing my memoir. ”
      — ff at Moby Dickens Bookstore 2 November ’13 ** ** **

      Hemingway and Salinger were both frontline combat veterans.

      At 18, Hemingway volunteered for the Red Cross as an ambulance driver, and suffered injuries on the Italian Front that took him out of the war (World War I). He was a frontline war correspondent in the Spanish Civil War, and in World War II, with US forces from D-Day to Germany.

      Salinger was a US combat infantryman in WWII from D-Day to Germany.

      Clearly ff effectively incorporates “not getting” modern literature into his own Andy-Rooney-like* public persona, but I wonder sometimes what he would make of some of Hemingway’s *non*-fiction work, like “Death in the Afternoon, ” or some of his reports from the frontlines.

      * (“President Reagan must be happy over how bad the weather’s been this winter, because its the one thing no one’s blaming on him. There’s nothing television news likes better than bad weather, and we sure get a lot of it in the United States.” – Andy Rooney)


      • Good information here , Jake. It makes me think of something Hemingway wrote about how the blood in his boots felt like warm water.
        And I agree with your Andy Rooney persona observation. I think Forrest is a very clever man who doesn’t miss a beat. Being from Texas myself, I know that some people equate the drawl and southern slang with ignorance. I can see where he could use that to his advantage in business dealings. I don’t think we can underestimate Mr. Fenn and if we do so, it’s at our own peril when it comes to the chase. Judging by some of the photos I’ve seen of his home and his collections, I think it’s safe to say that he has OCD to some extent. ( my youngest son is the same, a completist) Everything is lined up just so, and everything in its place. I can guarantee that his poem had to be just perfect for it to work the way he wanted it to. That’s why it took so long to write. Impossible, no… difficult? You better believe it.
        I have to say that the time I have spent searching has been a blast and I will be sad to see it end.

        • Just to note that Forrest likely has just the OC and not the D. Many people have OC tendencies but they are beneficial.

          • You are right, Idle . And absolutely no disrespect intended here. The way items are arranged in his home just reminds me of my son , who is The same way. I swear he can tell if I’ve been in his room and moved one of his antique bottles.

          • My OCO isn’t the same as Forrest or your sons. Mine has made it so I rarely get sick though.

            Merry Christmas Veronica, your son, Dal, Forrest, and everyone!

          • Merry Christmas ID, and have a wonderful holiday, hopefully surrounded by loved ones and cheer!

      • Jake, do you have the book Flywater? The intro was written by Jack Hemingway, Ernest’s oldest son. He was an important political figure & environmentalist.

    • I have a hunch the opening and closing locations of a Farewell to Arms could resemble the hiding spot. Of course I also think the description of the title of Catcher in the Rye could too. Farewell to Arms makes more sense to me though.

    • Do we gotta discuss braids, concrete, mirrors, nailed down, marry, the moon, duck(s), hunch, time, flutterby, D’s, reflection, or the middle? Might one get tired and weak after excessive repetition of the same thing(s)?

  23. Mr Fenn,

    I did a BOTG this past Sept. I was unsuccessful.
    The trails are not dangerous , but also not for the meek.
    Not too far either, just six bucks fifty, out and back.

    Merry Christmas to you and family.
    Come sunup I add a year to my age, makes you 10 years my senior .
    I’ll be back

    Best Regards
    David here

  24. This last year of theories, translations, SBs, adventures, being charitable, etc has been quite fun and interesting, this could not of happened without all of the good people here on HoD. I couldn’t have been impressed more anywhere else. The demonstration of helping those that were in great need is the most impressive of all.

    I’m very happy hanging out here and those that are here, is truly a family for all. I need to wish all a very, very good holidays and I certainly hope that all have a great new year.

    Special wishes to Forrest and family!
    Special wishes to Dal and family!

    🙂 Merry Christmas, Hanuka and others beliefs!! Have a Happy and enjoyable New Year!! 🙂


  25. OUAM Postmark —-Aug. 2, 2017

    Luke 2: 1-20

    Merry Christmas everyone!

    Billy, Deputy Katie, the boys and Secret agents Brando and Joe.

  26. Ok, I’m doing some research here today on the Thrill of the Chase.
    I have come across several people/articles in the year of 2013 referring to the poem as being titled “Where the Treasure Lies”.
    I have not found a place where Mr. Fenn uses that term.
    I checked Tarry Scant already.
    I am also aware of the quote where Mr. Fenn replied he forgot to name his poem.
    Anybody know the history of or why these people call the poem “Where the Treasure Lies”?
    And, it won’t change my solve, I’m just chasing history…..

    • I saw those arrows when I first started my search along with old air panels that relays information to air craft such as needing supplies or help.

      I did discount them because they are man made structures. It was fun to learn about them.

      Thanks Dal

  27. In my opinion, the answer is in the poem. Period. It could be something like wwwh is a right angle, 90 degrees.
    Or it could be something like a crossword puzzle. Begin it wwwh, use where as the starting word, run hospITal off the h, then take it in the canyon down, swITchback, etc.
    Trying to find place names on a map to fit what the poem is saying has been fruitless for a long time.
    Only after you have figured out the poem does the marrying of the clues come into play, IMO.

    • Wayne,

      I disagree that the answer to wwwh is in the poem. I have always maintained the one has to *learn* wwwh. Once one has nailed down the first clue the other clues can be found provided the poem is understood. There is no other way IMO.

      The reason that most can’t find or match any of the clues on a good map is because of not having the correct first clue and/or not understanding the poems clues. I strongly believe the book does not give one hint as to wwwh, again one has to learn and some folks aren’t doing that. The answer to the first clue IMO can be found outside of the poem and outside of the book and more to do with an understanding geography, if one does not know geography they need to learn.
      F mentioned a comprehensive understanding of geography along with a good map, and the understanding of the poem. The poem gives instructions, directions and places, enabling us to take the correct route to the tc.

      Just Say’n

    • Wayne;

      I disagree with CharlieM. Like you, I believe that the answers are to be found within the poem, and that the book will help with the clues. Not sure how wwwh is a right angle, but we all try different things. Good luck to Ya’. JDA

      • Could be …. the poem’s clues are the ‘Wheres.’ Wheres can be married to a map.

        Could be… the book’s hints are the ‘Whats” ,,,, If you know what IT is, you might figure out where IT is.

        WHAT IF… IT is an answer you already know?

    • Wayne, I somewhat have to agree with CharlieM. Somewhat.
      “You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh, and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
      No I don’t madam, sorry. F
      The question is if f supplies the correct ANSWER to the above. Which he does not. Like CharlieM said, wwwh needs to be learned. “You have to find out”.
      EIS Radio, 8/8/2013-
      Yeah, I have some advice. Read the book. And then study the poem. Over and over. Read it over and over. Maybe even memorize it. And then go back and read the book again looking for hints that are in the book that are going to help you with the clues that are in the poem. That’s the best advice I can give. You have to find OUT- you have to LEARN where the first clue is. They get progressively easier after you DISCOVER where the first clue is.” And,
      Last Word Podcast, 5/25/2016-
      “In my book, there’s a poem. And there are nine clues in that poem. I would suggest if you want to find my treasure, read that poem over and over. And then try to find OUT- try to follow the clues to the treasure.”

      Of course all the info must be in the poem, f said that is all we need. But if the answer to wwwh is not there, then it must be gained another way.
      “…..study the clues in the book and thread a tract through the wiles of nature and circumstance to the treasure. If you can find it, you can have it. I warned the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”
      We will know with certainty of the location beforehand, but, we know that f has said that BotG is needed for some clues. If we know beforehand of the location, but don’t have the answers to some of the clues, and we know that a physical appearance is needed for some clues, It only leads to one possible outcome. That solving the poem gives an exact spot.
      “Read the blogs for entertainment, and the poem like you were going to put an X on a map.”
      That the location of the chest is gained from solving the poem, and that solving clues is not the same as solving the poem. Two entirely different things. F’s own words.
      If we know of the spot beforehand, and will go in confidence, and we need to find “out’ to find the first clue, and, we will learn where wwh is, and we will thread a tract through the wiles of nature and circumstance to the treasure, then it’s obvious. You will find the spot, reverse engineer to where you would start, and that will be wwwh. That is how you learn wwwh is when there is no given answer supplied by f. And, that is how the answer is only in the poem. It’s all we need. So, on a flip side, I disagree that the answer is outside the book. It can’t be when f said all we need is the poem.
      You solve the poem, find the spot, marry to a map, calculate a path, find where to start the path, that is where you begin. The path will have the clues. Some of those clues will be obvious, some already figured out, but the most important is the solve of the 9th clue. That leads to believe that the spot the poem talks about will get you to the 8th clue, the spot of his secret. The chest lies in solving the 9th clue.
      “Forrest, What’s the minimum number of clues that we need to solve to find the treasure, assuming that we follow the clues in order? `Serge Teteblanche
      Just one Serge, the last one.f
      So, when you say
      “In my opinion, the answer is in the poem. Period”, I agree, it has to be, but I disagree if you are trying to answer for wwwh as an individual clue that can be answered. I’m just going by what f has said.
      “Q. Do you expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?
      A. No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue. So how would you leave in confidence if you don’t know wwwh? By knowing where you are going, to the “X” on a map. IMO.

      • Poison ~ ‘You solve the poem, find the spot, marry to a map, calculate a path, find where to start the path, that is where you begin. The path will have the clues.’

        Nice little summation, however, how to we get around;
        “The most common mistake that I see searchers make is that they underestimate the importance of the first clue. If you don’t have that one nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta.” f

        “…I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly.” f

        “I mean, there’s people driving down the street looking for a blaze, because that’s one of the clues, but you can’t start in the middle of the poem and find the treasure, I don’t think, I mean, it would be a miracle if someone did.”
        Adding; If you can find the blaze the distance to the chest would be obvious.

        “Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem. Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.”f

        Yet, you seem to imply the way to do this is by reverse engineering… the spot is where the blaze or is chest is, and we need to work backwards… how do you solve the poem if you’re starting at end of the path? be it on a map or GE.
        I mean, If we can find the blaze or the chest ‘spots’ does it really matter how ‘we get to’ the spot? spots?… Why would we need to follow the clues, any of them at all, with “botg” if we know prior where the blaze and/or the hide is?
        While you made a compelling argument and used some ATF’s to help your ideas… you seem to be lacking many other ATF’s that need explanations as well.
        The main one, being the idea; looking for later clues is a folly… it would be a miracle if someone did {blaze}… Stay home if you don’t have the first clue…

        fenn was asked the minimum number of clues needed? The last one… right? But if the last clue is not seen from GE… is it not on a map either?
        fenn stated GE “and / OR” a good map. he made the two as one in the same when telling us tools / references we should utilize.
        So how in the world can we locate the hide or the blaze …by the use of any map or mapping program ‘and then’ discover the path that will take us to the supposed point that is marked X in our solves?

        I’m I reading your post correctly???

        Just curious….

        • Seeker – Forrest didn’t say the distance to the chest would be obvious. He said the answer to your question would be obvious. Remember he said “the middle of the poem” when talking about people looking for the blaze. The blaze is a middle clue. It is clue number 4 or 5 or 6. So I believe that Forrest is implying that if you know where the blaze is, then you know there are still several clues left to solve and it is therefore irrelevant how far the blaze is from the chest. You will not know or care how far the blaze is from the chest. But you WILL recognize that it is still a long way from the final clue and the distance is unimportant. All IMO of course.

          • warlock,

            Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey

            Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help?f

            While the word distance wasn’t mentioned [ my bad ] the question posed asked how ‘far’… that is still a distances regardless of a foot or a mile. But, something should be obvious to tell the searcher where the chest is… right?
            However you said; So I believe that Forrest is implying that if you know where the blaze is, then you know there are still several clues left to solve and it is therefore irrelevant how far the blaze is from the chest.

            OK, lets run with that thought… the first thing that comes to my mind is, why are we wise to have found the blaze if there is still an unknown distance and a number of clues [ possible 4 more or less ] left? Yet, if the blaze can be found, Casey would know {because it would be “obvious”} how far… right? ~ with only half the clues?
            To say the blaze is the middle of the clues; we have a big dilemma. fenn was asked about clues in stanza 2 and 3 [ in part ] the idea was sounds like 4 in stanza 2 and when the last couple lines read from stanza 3; he said, sounds like a couple more.

            LOL, being very serious, because this has been in the back of my mind as well. How do you take the comment about 4 clues in stanza 2 and 2 more clues ‘just’ for the last two lines [mentioned] in stanza 3, and possible 2 other clues for the first part of stanza 3, logically… being 8 clues within those two stanzas?
            Was he just blowing off the interviewer?
            IF so, I wonder about the comment; if we knew hoB, we’d go straight to the chest [paraphrasing]. Was he blowing off that question as well?

            There’s a lot to think about when reviewing the ATF’s…I personally can’t hang my hat on any given one… I need for all of them [majority] to have a logical explanation for a theory to work as best as it can with what we have been told and suggest to use.

            Yep that interview with the amount of possible clues for stanzas 2 and 3 {“sounds like”} has really been a pain to work through.

        • Seeker, I think you are confusing solving clues to solving the poem from my post. I don’t think solving the clues is solving the poem. I think, as you know, that there are numbers that yield coordinates, which yields a spot, which then a start can be found.
          It is foolish to look for later clues, the ATF’s you brought up are saying what I’m trying to say.
          You will need a start spot, Following the path, let’s say, you can have the poem in hand, From line 5, walk the path, the clues will present themselves. That’s not to say all the clues, some could be solved. They would have to be, but some cannot. How else could you get a wwwh when the answer was not given by f?
          It’s not like I’m starting at the end of the poem, to me, the poem is layered. The solve will give the spot, the clues will be followed to the chest. The clues are one right after the other as far as the poem and the path. The last clue is in the last line. The first ATF you posted is a hint at what is at wwwh. IMO. Of course you need the first clue, it’s where you start. Only one way in or out, the first clue is vital. As far as the blaze, yes a clue, but I think totally possible to miss it, and never truly know what it is. If you can find it, then the whole thing is obvious. You know what the hell you are doing at that point. If you don’t, possible to walk on by, but still possible to find the chest. As long as you know marvel gaze, IMO.
          The clues are just that, clues. No biggie. Points of reference, IMO.
          The point I try to make is to the clue solvers or the solve the first to get the second and so on. They start out trying to solve for something that f has said there is no answer for. So they have to go with a hunch. A guess. They also must guess at hoB, and the blaze. His ATF covers it.
          “Playing a hunch is not worth much in the search and those who start out by looking for the blaze, are wasting their time.f”
          Why is that? If the blaze could be solved, then we could solve it. But that’s the thing, it can’t be, and F’s ATF says that. That’s wht it’s foolish to just go look for the blaze.
          “FF: Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking”.
          “Forrest Fenn on February 18, 2016 at 2:02 pm said:
          Spoon, “If person had the correct GPS coordinates they could find the chest.” Physics says this has to be true. How can it not be? The key word here is “correct.”
          Why would he say something about coordinates? Of course we could then find it, but is he hinting at the fact that we can actually find the coordinates?
          The main thing is that solving clues is not the same as solving the poem, IMO.

          • “The blaze” HAS been “solved”, IMO. Has FF not said
            that solving the poem is difficult but not impossible?
            When I say “solving the poem”, I mean solving it *well*
            enough to direct a BOTG searcher to the hidey place (within a few steps of the TC), regardless of searching for other complex messages, philosophy, spirituality, religion, or gastronomic encephalological or angiospermatophytic oology in the poem.

        • warlock…everyone sees things differently in the Chase and that is fine by me. I was just wondering how you reconcile this comment from Fenn, it was in part, about buried or not;

          “The clues will lead you to the treasure and whether it’s buried or not, you can find it if you can find the blaze as a result of starting with the first clue. That’s what you have to do.”

          • Hi Ken. To answer your question, I believe the clues are divided into 2 groups. “My” first 5 clues highlight the general search area and are specific enough so that you know you are searching in the right place. The last 4 clues will pinpoint where the chest is, like with an “x” marks the spot. The first of these last 4 clues, for me, is the blaze. It is the beginning of the end but not the end itself. If you want to form an “x” you must first locate the exact 4 points that will give you the “x”. If the first of these is the blaze, which it is for me, then Forrest’s comment does not rule out my solve. Does that make sense? Thanks for posting that quote. I’ve never seen it before. Is it relatively new?

          • Warlock…That quote is from 2017 at the Lure post screening interview. Here’s another one that may be of interest to you.
            Mysterious Writings Surprise Words from Forrest 2016
            This was the first one; Mr. Forest, I was just wondering. If I can find the blasé, why should I worry about where warm waters halt? All I need to do is look “quickly down” like the poem says, and there is the treasure, right? ~Philadelphia Franklin
            “That’s correct Philly, but that’s not a plausible scenario. If you can find a fish already on your hook you needn’t go fishing, right? Don’t force those kinds of aberrational thoughts on yourself or you’ll likely walk back to your car with a very light back pack. f”

          • Ken – You quoted Forrest “That’s correct Philly, but that’s not a plausible scenario. If you can find a fish already on your hook you needn’t go fishing, right?” And Ken, that’s a good point. That overall statement DOES conflict with my belief that there are several more clues after the blaze but it also conflicts with Forrest’s own quote “I mean, there’s people driving down the street looking for a blaze, because that’s one of the clues, but you can’t start in the middle of the poem and find the treasure, I don’t think, I mean, it would be a miracle if someone did.” But maybe in response to Philly he was saying “that’s right” – meaning if you know where the blaze is, you would NOT need to know where WWWH is. And NOT saying that’s right – you will find the treasure right after the blaze. I would be surprised if Forrest would confirm that the blaze is the final clue. I think he was confirming that WWWH is no longer necessary AFTER you have found the blaze, but that finding the blaze is impossible unless you have already found WWWH.

        • Seeker,
          In my solve when you are at the blaze, from there to where I believe the chest is, is 20 yards approximately. IMO but there are more clues beyond the blaze to help you know what you’re looking for. When you see it you will know the distance.

          • Birdie,
            You say in your solve the chest is approx 20yrds from the blaze, yet there is still more clues to solve… how do you come up with 20 yrds without the other remaining clues?
            Regardless of how those clues get you to the chest.. you seem to ‘obviously’ know an approx. measurement.

          • Seeker,
            IMO I have solved them, I sat at the blaze and looked at the area this Summer. And I know it’s the area because of what is looking back at me.

      • poisonivey, I liked reading your comments. Thanks

        But, I am not sure if solving the 9th clue gets you to the chest. I will need to think about that one.

  28. We are not the only ones muddying the waters.
    Fenn is a big contributor as well and that’s another major problem.

    • Jake, every question that Fenn answers is straight forward, IMO. It’s the way that the question is posed to him that sometimes is miss understood by searchers and then tossed around mudding the waters. In some cases Fenn maybe asking the question himself. And, after 8 years or more in the chase he may have misspoke due to not hearing a question correctly or even had the occasion to forget what was said years ago. IMO the waters have all been muddy by us searchers.

      This blog is good but it provides a lot of mud, especially those with answers to every questions on the blog. Just take it in stride. Listen to what FF has to say only, that’s my opinion.

      • ManOwar: “Jake, every question that Fenn answers is straight forward, IMO.”

        I feel your pain ManOwar. I hate to use the word “every” when it pertains to Fenns statements.
        I have a feeling you will change your mind at some point as Fenn has done.

  29. Here are Sherrif Billy’s New Years resolutions for 2019

    1. Take a bathe where warm water halts
    2. Never to walk down a canyon alone
    3. Put in something in the church coffer
    4. Let everyone think drawing nigh means “Left” or getting “near”
    5. To quickly down a couple cold ones when the race is won
    6. To never again ask; so why must I go to work?
    7. To illuminate the answers for all to know
    8. To listen to the creator of the universe and hope he heard my mumbling
    9. To be brave while in the woods, with all the lions, tigers and bears! Oh my!

    10. To be thankful for my family and all the blessings in my life surrounding me, and to gaze at the stars just a little more frequently.

    Happy New Year everyone!

    1f Billy

  30. In an effort to find the answer(s) within the poem, my latest rabbit hole will be concentrating on the word I feel is key. The word you must be in tight focus with. I, eye, aye, the sound of I, etc.
    The first stanza says I is keeping the secret.
    Stanza 5 says I knows the answer.
    The last stanza says I gives the title.
    Ice, Incline, Inch, Iodine, bullseye…here we go again.

  31. I’d like to ask about “the parking lot”. How many average-sized automobiles, if parked in a reasonable fashion, could be accommodated by this parking lot,
    barring modification (i.e., re-striping, enlarging)? If you answer, please estimate to the nearest multiple of 20. Thanks in advance.

    • Tall Andrew,

      I don’t see the importance about the parking lots capacity. Its like the distance from the blaze, the answer will be obvious and this comes about if one found the treasure. Why worry about a parking lot, its not going to help in any way?

      My answer to your question is: to be determined after all is done.

      • Hi all ,you fellers are going to have to figure out how Fenn is going to get his car to the Denver museum of science and arts parking lot.Clint
        P.S with out help.

        • Hi Clint, Mr. Fenn never said anything about the Denver museum. That was something Doug Preston said, and Mr. Fenn never confirmed or denied that statement. Without Mr. Fenn’s acknowledgement, that statement can’t be taken as fact.

        • Clint,

          F said he made two trips from his car to hide the treasure. Prey tell, where can one go from the Denver Museum twice in one afternoon and not have anyone around? You can’t as the area around the museum is very much populated for a few miles, let alone private property. Also there are different Denver museums, which all are not in the RM.

          • Hi CharlieM
            Yes I agree with everything you said Charlie but there is one more important
            part that you did not get.Clint

          • This topic came from Doug Preston, to me the museum thing is mute, it wasn’t from F. Could have’s, done this or that still doesn’t work as a clue.

            Just Say’n

          • Hi CharlieM
            Do you have the revised OUAW yet?
            Can you tell me what state you are looking in and what state you are from if that is not prying to much. Thank you!

          • Clint,

            Yes I do have the revised OUAW, I live in Denver, I’m looking in CO, I’m looking in my state not just because I live there, its because the poem in part leads me there.

            Heck I was raised in MT, but I felt that it wasn’t the place to be. This also applies to WY, I lived there.

          • I can see all the states in the poem.
            Treasures – MT
            Bold – CO
            Why – WY
            New and old – NM

            I don’t see Red Rocks in the poem – Nope!
            There is water high in all the search states so it must be something more specific.

          • Jake,

            MT is also big sky country.
            CO is colorful
            All states are new and old
            WY ?

            Using tags for states is a dart toss and merely a wish. Anyway no value to me.

          • No value to me either.
            Just regurgitating others thoughts.
            I’m good with SW Montana just because his love.

      • CharlieM, I asked about the parking lot in order to determine whether someone’s solve was similar to mine.

  32. My only reasonable solve was parking at seven mile bridge. I thought it was the Blaze aka
    seven mile marker. Besides Colorado the other states have beautiful wilderness along
    lots of trout waters. What’s wrong with riding my bike there and throwing it in the waters high. I thought FF said that. Did he mean from West Yellowstone. Or after he parked his car. IMO not the Denver museum.

    • Was the bridge seven miles long? A bridge being the blaze doesn’t seem reasonable to me.
      What was your unreasonable solve?

      • Some forced solve. Madison Junction. Madison canyon to just over seven mile bridge is a put in below the river. Treasure across the river from there. If you cross the bridge the river is now on right. Paddle back up to bridge. need bridge for getting heavy loads across river and at high waters. Stand on bridge seven mile marker look down see parking place. walk down genesis trail stop across from the put in.
        Up bank 200 foot. maybe 500 foot right or left. You really need
        to use your imagination. And follow what is said in poem. Far fetched but so is Everything.
        I guess its out there some where. living in Florida and no time
        to BOTG it is out of my reach. And with FF it would not be that easy.
        So I am Wrong on it.

        • Me don’t buy.
          Could be in park, but don’t think.
          Far fetched but not everything far fetched as you say.
          Many use 200′ 500′ in imagination.
          I go now.

          • New Mexico is more reasonable. Not sure why I posted
            I have pretty much given up trying to solve. It a riddle
            that’s for sure.

    • Tall Andrew, Hank,

      Do you know who took the pics places at the header of each topic page on the site?

        • Just to catch ya up a little, Andrew. The pics were taken by Goofy. A searcher who, I believe, does it for a living. I wouldn’t be surprised if some of them are much older than 8 years. The pics were donated by Goofy for the site. fenn had nothing to do with them. And it’s my understanding Goofy has never met fenn. In fact, quite a few photos are not of the search area… [four remaining states] The one at the top of this page is of the Grand Canyon, others of Utah, Idaho, Nevada, etc. some of deserts, which fenn has ruled out as well.
          Regardless… they are some great shots of the landscapes of our countrysides, and of many places most here may not have ever seen.
          There are other pics from other searcher located at the top right of the page ‘photos from searcher that have some very beautiful surroundings… not to forget, Dal as a great collect splattered in his adventures as well.

          LOL the most exciting picture I ever took was in NY across from my home there. over two hundred head a deer, on a 400 acre area of alfalfa field adjacent to 400 plus tall standing blue spruce and Douglas firs and gold pines.. many bucks in rut, and four albinos’ [three bucks and a doe]… The big albino was 10 point with a 18 -20″ spread, all white with pink hoofs, nose, eyes and at least 225lb, gorgeous animal… I didn’t have the heart to take him. My 90lb golden would walk right up to him and sit, watching the buck graze.. even lay down next to each other for hours, as the buck bed down for the night in a small patch of ceders.

          Sorry went of topic a bit… I miss my dog [from a pup to 18 years young] and that beautiful buck… Anyways… there are some great pics on the site. You should take some time and travel through them… letting your mind wander.

  33. Quick favor… if something interesting happens or if there’s an interesting interpretation of a clue on here, can someone just put FMC in their response so I can find it easily?

    All I want for Christmas is to not have to scroll through all these OnE comments.


    • Boy, are you asking for pain! Every pound of blather on these threads has an author who believes s/he is offering interesting insight.

  34. Some weather nastiness hitting NM, including Santa Fe. Stay safe, Forrest!

    Build a fire and read old books!

    • Ya,
      We want to help keep him safe so he can give more hints.
      The heck with everyone else.
      You could just email him the weather.

  35. There is now a “Meet Ups 2019” section for those who want to plan to meet other searchers this spring and summer…
    It is organized the same as last year…by state…
    Look under “Important Information” on the right side of this page where the other menus are located.

    By the way…I tossed all the info and comments that were posted for meet ups in 2018. So if you received a note that your comment was moved to the trash…that is probably the reason… All the comments in the 2018 meet ups section were moved to the trash to make room for announcements for this year…

  36. frank,
    Your WWWH is Abiquiu Reservoir?
    I’m assuming your heading west 151 then head north?

    • no that’s where no paddle up your creek- and waters high is- wwwh is east of there way down below hob by rio grande river

      • Jake you need to apologize for my med comment that you made – cancer is not fun to have or to make fun of – I always treated you with respect and thought you were a nice person to talk to – I guess I was wrong

        • I’m not going to apologize for an epidemic that’s overwhelmed the world frank. I’m just trying to give you and everyone that has drugs whether prescripts or not good advice. Don’t over med.

          • its ok Jake but on my prescription bottle it says to take two pills a day and I do just that so why should I take any more then what my doctors tell me to take – to me it didn’t seem like good advice but its ok it was nice talking to you

        • Hi, Frank. I hope you will continue to thrive with your medications, fight and beat cancer, and live your best life. May the powers of healing and renewal in the universe, which we call by many names, bring you great blessings. Happy New Year to you and yours.

          • thanks linda I will- thanks for your good wishes and I wish you a happy new years to you too be careful and be safe

        • Frank,
          I normally don’t post about other folks problems they post about, [ be it illness, emotional, whatever. ]

          Jake said ~ ‘I’m not going to apologize for an epidemic that’s overwhelmed the world frank. I’m just trying to give you and everyone that has drugs whether prescripts or not good advice. Don’t over med.’

          This comment just pissed me off… DR Jake has no idea of what you’re medical condition is, the amount meds your Doctor prescribed or the type of meds and the affect of that medication or combination of medications… yet assumes you’re over medicating because ‘he can’t comprehend.’

          However, if you are going to post these comments about your personal life on a public forum… you need to expect the ignorance of others will bring out their possible medical issues -stupidity syndrome- Also known as “SBS”

          • One should never let their emotions trump logic.

            Here’s something about Fenn’s Treasure Hunt:

            “Where all the lines cross” has me tinking about various possibilities. My list of places/things containing (rather loosely defined) “crossed lines” includes dragonflies, railroad tracks, telephone poles, and crosses (such as in a cemetery). This tends to give me a new idea about where to search for the TC, involving virtually no hiking at all; wearing gloves is also supported by this new idea.

          • thanks Seeker I will keep that in my mind thanks for your advice – I don’t care what any one says you are a good man thank you

  37. Just thinking out loud. When the poem and TTOTTC first was unveiled, there was no mention of the four states. The only real directional was “Somewhere
    North of Santa Fe”. This led many to believe that the treasure was in New Mexico. It was not until the NFBTFTW book was unveiled did the we have a map….which included New Mexico. Somewhere in the mix Utah was taken out as possibility. Soon we were given some hints/clues not in print form….Not Outhouses , not Graveyards,
    not underwater , and not at the Rio Grande.

    Still just thinking out loud…why was the Rio Grande singled out? Was it due to serious mishaps that happened on the Rio Grande, maybe the Rio Grande is too dangerous just as the canyons of Utah are too dangerous for novice searchers. I believe I read somewhere ( have read so much material that I cant remember if on or off the hoD) about a man and his wife almost meeting their demise in Utah while searching.

    Still thinking out loud. Could it be possible that the treasure will never be found without additional hints. Before an avalanche of opinions filled with rebukes stating “All you need is the poem”.

    In the poem it says ” As I have gone alone in there with my treasures bold I can keep my secret where…..and HINT OF TREASURES NEW AND OLD”
    Does that mean the treasure chest as well as other treasures?
    Does it also mean that we need to have all the hints that have been given and that are mentioned in the first line of the poem.

    Just thinking out loud and as always my own opinons

    • Guy ~ ‘Could it be possible that the treasure will never be found without additional hints.’……… ‘Does it also mean that we need to have all the hints that have been given and that are mentioned in the first line of the poem.’

      I don’t believe so… The problem might be more about how we think the poem should be solved vs. fenn’s intention. We’re just not seeing it the way he does.
      For example; the remaining states all have the ‘mountains N. of SF’ within in them. Even before the second book came out, fenn confirmed, what we should have surmised [imo] ~ the RM range, and fenn’s comments Utah and Idaho gone. The map [in tftw] kicked Canada out of the running.

      Logically, but not positivity, those areas should have been eliminated by us [ the readers ]. We were told of… a city, in the USA, at the Southern end of a mountain range in the US… So, imo, the four states have only been involved from the first time I read “in the mountains N. of SF.”.. while Utah and Idaho fall into areas of the RMs the one thing that caught my eye was the Continental Divide. This keep a contiguous connection to the remaining search area.. and I think the CD will play a role in the solve as well.
      This might be why Canada was a big deal when eliminated from the map… the Northern section of the range was no longer in play, that section of the CD. and why “SF”-{USA} was used.
      In short… None of the ATF’s eliminations really surprised me… it seemed the readers could have figured this out with a little bit of thinking. [ this was one process I looked at when I came up with a solve involving the glacial period, only fenn stomped on it when he said; there are many WWH and nearly all are north of SF] My point is; and my assumption; I [we] could have surmised what we know of today… the four states involved… at the very beginning without those ATF’s or extra books.

      In thinking about the solve involving the CD, This might indicate the idea of the big picture, WWH and Canyon Down.
      NPFTM might refer to the idea of the US section of the Continental Divide or ‘home of the brave’ line of thinking. Canada’s section of the range- poof.
      It might be possible that early searcher came to a place on the CD in just the right location, mentioned exactly where they were by name, but didn’t understand why they were there, by the poem. Something else got them to that point [ [they nailed down the correct location of WWH, only they did understand how].
      IF so, I can see how folks may not have understood stanza 2’s clues could be all of one location, as well as, most of stanza 3’s clues. At this point they left the poem [ most likely, stomped or drove away] by not understand the poem ‘could be’ telling of a single point on a map by the majority of the clues… yet each clue reference is still ‘places’ on a map/GE in the big picture, line of thinking.

      LOL, just a thought process on how the ‘idea’ of; “In the mountains N.of SF” could unfold and eliminate what was later confirmed by fenn, as out pf play. The ATF’s in this case are only usable as a check and balance to that thought process.

      This post is full of it… opinions, I mean.

      • Seeker;

        For the most part, I can agree that searchers might have been able to narrow the search area down to four states – except. what about Idaho?

        If you look at the Continental Divide – https://www.google.com/search?q=map+of+continental+divide&tbm=isch&source=iu&ictx=1&fir=JTi-rfiNGLN6qM%253A%252CAQaSL8Y3gD3UIM%252C_&usg=AI4_-kS0bemt7KeDaKcY3eBDBvSDv_3pTw&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwjUh_GW9cffAhULK3wKHZgtBM4Q9QEwAHoECAUQBA#imgrc=JTi-rfiNGLN6qM: – You will note that it is part of the border between Idaho and Montana. Why should Idaho be eliminated?

        Maybe I am letting my Idaho roots get in the way, but I just don’t see why I, as a searcher, would have logically eliminated Idaho. Glad that Forrest did eliminate it, otherwise I probably would have spent a lot of wasted time exploring the beauty and majesty of my adopted state – JDA

        • In this case, and only thinking of how the CD connect with the four remaining states, The CD is a boundary line for Idaho… where the other states, the CD runs through them.

          Some of the reason for the use of the CD are;
          The mountains N. of SF
          NPFTM ~ or the USA section
          Brave ~ as the backbone of the RM’s
          WWH ~ a specific location on the CD out of the many WWH on the CD, line of thinking.
          Church is the mountains and river bottoms ~ the watershed of the Rockies
          With the possibility that hoB refers to Canada and it’s nations symbol the Beaver, not ulike ours is the Bald Eagle.. capitalized as a title of a nation’s symbol… in theory.

          The idea is; while these places are huge, they point to / explain of a single place on the CD by ‘describing’ the path followed that bring one to a location. Something explaining for this generation and future generations as well.

          Of course this idea, theory only works if the CD is involved with the clues.

      • Seeker,

        Seeker you wrote: Logically, but not positivity, those areas should have been eliminated by us [ the readers ]. We were told of… a city, in the USA, at the Southern end of a mountain range in the US… So, imo, the four states have only been involved from the first time I read “in the mountains N. of SF.”.. while Utah and Idaho fall into areas of the RMs the one thing that caught my eye was the Continental Divide.

        Where did you get this information? “We were told of… a city, in the USA, at the Southern end of a mountain range in the US…”
        What were you referring with this statement? Are you inferring that F said that the TC was at the Southern end of a mountain range? Or were you referencing something else?

        This is important info if F said this, so would you please clear this up?

        • ManOwar;

          I am not Seeker, but I am sure that he was referring to the commonly used phrase about Santa Fe – “Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman
          There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts.” f – Hope this helps – If I am wrong, I am sure that Seeker will correct me – as he should if I am wrong – JDA

        • ‘Logically’ but not positively…; should have been the hint.
          SF is a city, a city in the US, a city that sits at the foot hills of a mountain range, a mountain range call the RM’s Northward of said city.
          The idea is we [the readers, searchers, curiosity seekers] should have been able to surmised fenn’s later confirmation.. The Rocky Mountains.

          Now If I was to make an example of the comment; there are many wwh and nearly all are N. of SF. I could conclude the CD might be involved… a section of the Rockies that extends far south of SF. And might be why fenn hasn’t or can’t eliminate any of the four remaining states which contain the CD. IF the CD is actually involved with the solution.
          However, Idaho and Utah don’t contain the CD within their boundaries, the CD is the boundary line for those two states. IMO those states were never in questioned to being with.

          Here’s a question to ponder. Regardless of anyone’s definition of Halt; be it stop, change, frozen, warm to cold or any other thing we can come up with for halt… what were the waters doing in the first place?
          Rolling, flowing, sliding, falling, stationary, raining… I mean we can pick any one of those, but why do we need to know, is the question… especially if we need to learn WWH.
          Lets go basic; if we’re told to BIWWWH and halt means stop… what was the waters doing prior?

          • Thanks Seeker for the clarification, and thanks JD for your response.

            As for what the water was doing prior. What is warm water? Usually it means water that is comfortable for us humans. Now where would you find WW?….at a hot springs of course. Now the warm spring waters stops flowing somewhere down the stream as it flows into cooler waters. So prior, the warm water was being used to comfort he human body, such as Forrest’s body. Warm means comfortable according to Forrest.

            It’s simple logic….as F has said don’t over complicate the poem. Now it’s time for me to take a warm shower and be comfortable. Lol…Now this is only my opinion, right?

          • seeker I would say it was snow melting from the mountains and some going in to reservoirs where its held and released slowly in the river to help the river from over flowing and flooding the citys and towns below

          • Forgot to mention…..there a many hot springs north of SF, not so many south of the city. Well now……..

          • That was a comfortable write up ManOwar.
            Simple and what makes me wonder why some drop the warm or water out of the equation.

          • Seeker,

            The answer I feel to your question, ” what was the waters doing prior?”, they are doing nothing. This can only happen at a lake that has no outlet, the waters run dry or where the waters starts, [no moisture to start the waters flowing, the water for the waters stops]. One of the things that I mentioned is more complicated, which I feel I can not mention as its in the same category as F indicated, if I told you where the hoB is, you would go right to the tc. [the gist].

            Any other thoughts such as ManOwar’s thoughts below I feel is folly. The water is still moving no matter how one looks at it, in most hot springs the water is moving before it reaches the surface, when warm water joints cold water it is still moving. I think along the lines of physics and logic.

            Just Say’n

          • Charlie…..It’s not the water that stops it’s the warm that stops….People just don’t get it. The water doesn’t stop.

            Frank,…snow water is not warm.

            The only logical answer is Hot Springs.

          • ManOwar,

            As I indicated, when the warm waters meet cold the warm water is still moving. At the point the geothermal water brakes the surface and below the surface it is moving.

            Anyway, I disagree with your theory, where the poem says, waters halt, I understand it as the water literally “halts” [completely stops]. Straight forward.

            Just Say’n

          • ManOwar,

            I get the theories where the warm meets the cold it stops.
            In theory but not in practice.

          • CharlieM, Sorry, but I disagree with your theory.

            It doesn’t say “where waters stop”….it says “where warm waters halt”….and halt doesn’t necessarily mean to stop…period. Good luck to your thoughts.

    • Guy-
      Not a critical error…but…
      You wrote:
      “When the poem and TTOTTC first was unveiled…The only real directional was Somewhere North of Santa Fe”. ”

      Actually, it was more detailed than that..
      From the beginning Forrest said and wrote:
      “In the mountains North of Santa Fe.”

      Even in the very beginning we knew it was in the mountains..
      We did not know if it was the Rockies or Sierra Nevadas or Alps or Appalachia’s…or any other mountain range that lays north of the latitude of Santa Fe…

      Although most wanted to believe it was the Rockies…which did not exclude British Columbia or Alberta… the potential world landscape for his hidey place was unfathomable..

      And remember, there were stories of a young Forrest when he was in Europe and North Africa …so the original hidey place could have been related to Forrest’s adventures in many far away lands above Latitude 38.6870N…and then there was the question of which Santa Fe was he talking about…

      Based on simply the difference between what we knew in the beginning and what we know now…it is interesting to note that Forrest was most often talking about the obvious and not trying to make things more obscure then they appeared at first glance…
      It was the searchers who added misdirection and confusion to the search by over-thinking…not Forrest…

      I am one that believes the answer to the puzzle of the poem is likely much more direct than many searchers wish…

      • I very much agree with your last statement Dal. Happy New Year, and thanks for all of your efforts in keeping the site up.

        P.S. what has happened to Goofy? JDA

        • JDA-
          I don’t know what happened. Goofy was an enigma from the start. He began as a searcher and commenter in the very early days of the blog.

          At it’s start the blog was simple and unorganized…matching my own shortcomings..I had no technical skill and started the blog to share with others what I had learned about Forrest and the search and to bring more attention to TTOTC. But it grew quickly…with submissions from others who had ideas to share and questions to raise…but using the blog was difficult because as it grew there was no organization. It was difficult or impossible to find the stories and contributions…

          Goofy was one of the early critics who, in a kind and generous manner, suggested that I should organize the blog…
          To which I explained that I had already surpassed my blog know-how and I had no idea how to organize the blog…in truth, I barely knew how to post an article on the blog…let alone make menus and sub-menus..or make text orange and the background black…

          A couple days later Goofy sent me a link to a website and when I visited that website…lo and behold…there was the present day blog…organized, reformatted and themed…it was a startling thing of beauty and surprise…
          What amazed me even more was that Goofy had managed to port the entire blog over to this new site…completely…without having any passwords or administrative access from me…How he did that is still a mystery…

          Without any hesitation I gave Goofy administrative access to the blog, my server and passwords to all my accounts so he could set that blog up on my server…

          I never met Goofy. I don’t know who he really is or what his name is. I only know within a general area where he lived. But a trust partnership was instantly formed and it was totally honored.

          So Goofy took over all the technical side of the blog and kept it running through some terrible issues that resulted from wildly increased traffic and sporadic attempts to take it down by hackers and attackers…

          He never revealed himself to me. But he was a genuine man of honor. I believe he was an information technology contractor for the energy industry in the mountain states and his love was four wheeling, big trucks and skilled drivers. He liked dogs and Texas. He was also a photographer and took all the photos used in the header of the blog. He would not allow me to put his by-line on the photos. He never showed up (as far as I know) to any chase events, such as Fennboree, book signings or meet-ups. he did not want to be known or recognized.

          In early winter of 2017 Goofy became noticeably less active on the blog and responded to emails from me less frequently. In February of 2018 the blog began having major slowdowns. Increased traffic and some problem I cannot fathom was making the blog painfully difficult to use. At just about that time I received the last note from Goofy. In it he said he was harder to get hold of because he was moving back to Texas for an opportunity he could not pass up. That was the last I heard from him.

          We suffered through much of that slow-down period without resolution. I could not figure out what the problem was. All the advice I got from various technical folks had to do with increasing memory and hard drive space…I ponied up…did that…but it didn’t help in the slightest…

          Then Chris showed up. Chris has a tech/marketing company in California that employs veterans. He straightened out the blog practically over night and instigated some new security measures to keep us up and running. Since then Chris has maintained the technical side of the blog. We placed the ads on the blog as a revenue stream for his company in return for his tech work. I don’t get anything from the ads except Chris’ significant technical work keeping the blog up and running…and I have to tell you that this can, at times, be a serious measure of work…We have enemies…We have spammers…

          I have not heard from Goofy since the last note in Feb 2018. I still don’t know who he is, where he lives or anything about him…except that he is a great friend and trustworthy partner who helped me get this blog going and I am very grateful.

          • Thanks SOOOO much for the update. Goofy sounds like quite the life – (blog) – saver as well as Chris. My thanks to both of them. Your blog is one of only two sites I visit (live on) Jenny’s being the second.

            Again, I appreciate the update. I hope that Goofy is happy in Texas – I salute you sir!

            HAPPY NEW YEAR to all – and especially to Forrest, Dal, Goofy (we miss you) and Chris for keeping this site up and running smoothly so that we searchers have a wonderful place where we can share our thoughts, dreams and madness – THANKS!!! JDA

          • That is a great story, Dal, and thanks for sharing. When all of this is over, I hope that the finder will recognize the efforts of you, Jenny, Goofy and Chris. You’re a big part of the story and we’re all grateful.

          • I was wondering what happened to Goofy as well, so thanks for asking, JDA. I always liked hearing what he had to say. I associate him mostly with his idea that most of the clues required BOTG instead of just the last one or two. Thank you for the update, dal. Hope everyone has a happy 2019!

          • Very much grateful Dal to you and Jenny, Chris and Goofy. Your site helps keep me sane during the long winter months. I hope everyone has a great 2019. If anyone finds the treasure, in addition to recognizing the new gang of 4 and Forrest, please don’t leave the rest of us searchers out there looking for the chest. We could then look for medallions and give on other quests to keep the chase alive.

          • Dal—
            I suspected that “toughshed” might be Goody. He sounded so much like him. I’m most likely wrong about that, but thought I’d share it. Toughshed shares now and then.

          • Wow, that is an amazing story, Dal! So much mystique, not just in the chase, but in the blog. Thanks so much for all you do, and thanks to Chris as well for stepping up.

          • I’m guessing Goofy lurks now and then. Waiting for the next “hat” contest. He’s just stepped away for a little while.
            Happy New Year everyone…

    • Guy —

      “My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f.”

      It doesn’t require additional hints to find it. It requires ‘an average person’ to eventually decide to look for it.

      So far, apparently, only sub-average folks have been looking. It’s humbling.

  38. Frank,
    Your fight with cancer and your strength to battle it head on reminds me of a poem I wrote several years ago titled “Note To Cancer”. It’s for people like you (that are face with this battle ) that I wrote it… in case you don’t remember it, I’ll repost it on the poetry page for you… stay strong my friend and send your cancer “Straight to hell”…… have a great day my friend and remember to enjoy the little things…… see ya…..

  39. thanks focused – you all are the greatest – thanks for you get well wishes – me and my family love you all thank you – have a safe and a happy new years

  40. All,

    Hello Forrest,

    If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?

    Thank you ~Nope
    Thank you Nope. Nope. f


    Can hunters really get to the treasure location with just a good map, the poem, and a decent knowledge of words?

    FF: I wrote the book for everyone who feels a sense of wanderlust. In your last question if you change the last word to geography, my answer would be yes.

    So the difference in these to separate questions is the first is asking if it can be found with just the poem and no back story,, to which Forrest responds NOPE. The second asks if it can be found with just the poem, a good map and a decent knowledge of words, which Forrest responds yes if you changes that last word geography., but no mention of backstory.

    Therefore I do not believe one must know the backstory in order to find the treasure, could it be helpful, sure. Again this is no different in the theory that the subtle hints may not be required was r vital, but they could be helpful.


    • Forrest confirms in those statements that the poem is not good enough to find the treasure. More is needed. This is huge blow to the poem purist method. The backstory is essential and so are a few other things.

      • Yes, you need to add a good map and knowledge of geography according to Forrest. I thinks it’s implied you need to know English and be capable of traveling to and searching the area. He’s never said the back story (book) is essential.

        I don’t understand why people don’t use the book for hints, but I also don’t understand why people come up with solutions you cannot explain by the poem alone.

      • Wrong assumption. He does not confirm that at all unless it is the reader’s desire to complicate it.

        If someone 500 years from now reads the 24 line poem only, that person will not become a treasure searcher. They won’t know by just reading those words that something is hidden, but even if they ‘suspect’ something is hidden they won’t know WHERE.

        To become a searcher you also need to know that this poem is a riddle with clues to a location in a map north of Santa Fe. That is all the backstory needed.

      • From those two ATF’s, it seems just the words are not enough. He does not state that the whole poem is not good enough. Just the words. No blow to the poem purists, as long as they are not just using the words. (how can these two be so incorrectly interpreted?)

      • 9equals9,

        You are completely wrong about poem purists, just using the poem. A poem purist uses the words in the poem as they are written and not used in any way that that changes the meaning of the words.

        I as well as other purists do use maps, and understanding [knowledge] of geography and the poems written directions [clues]. We don’t generally feel the subtle hints in the book aren’t needed along with backstories, to find the tc. Poem purists feel that the approach to the poem is simplified and straightforward, plain English and uncomplicated. At least that is the approach for me always.

        Just Say’n

    • Seannm… man you’ve been brewing that one for a few days. Maybe we should add in the *Little Girl in India* too… yes/no? The Chase has been going on long enough for most to realize that this is not a good example of a one and done endeavor. The way I see it is that *ALL* info can and should be considered, with discretion. But, buyer beware…good searching to you Sean.

    • Since Forrest used a recipe before. Consider these similar statements:
      A. All you have is flour. No sugar, no recipe no eggs, etc. Can you make a cake?
      Ans: no

      B Can you make a cake with flour, water and eggs?
      I wrote a recipe, but the answer is Yes.

      Statement A) states we need more than flour to make a cake. Statement B confirms a cake can be made with the only the ingredients listed. It doesn’t say that is all that is needed.

      Now what about sugar? It was not included in the list of items mentioned in B). The list isn’t all-inclusive and only lists some of the things to make a cake. It just confirms a cake can be made and doesn’t state that is only way to make a cake.

    • FF: “I wrote the book for everyone who feels a sense of wanderlust.”
      fenn added the book to his response, and change the idea of words to geography… His answer has the ‘backstory’ in it [if that is part of the backstory]

      But here’s the kicker.. the two questions are not the same, not even remotely the same… one asked if a person could ‘find’ the treasure. The other asked ‘get to the treasure location’..
      Nope’s question didn’t involve being on site.. the question presented, only, using the poem. [ think more like arm-chairing].
      The second question presented ‘get to’.. [on site]…
      Ok ya might say that is semantics.
      But the comment; “all the information to *find* the treasure chest is in the poem” is not the same as ‘all the information is in the poem’

      I read the “all the information…” comment as ‘the poem’ has the information [ nine clues ] that will lead one to the chest. Yet, fenn has stated many times; ‘need to know where to start’ – ‘need to start at the beginning’ – and- warns the path [imo, the “9” clues] will not be direct… without certainty of the location [ where all the clues are at] beforehand.
      As ken post added; little Indy can not get closer than the first two clues, seems to imply a couple of things… one is, she is only using a map and the poem, but has not moved yet.
      ~”Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is?”
      “work out” doesn’t have Little Indy on site. it’s basically the same as Nope’s idea.

      Regardless of *backstory* or anything else. Two of these three questions are different to the one question.. which has the hunter “get to” [a physical presence / action] to the treasure location, rather than *work out where..,* or *just using the poem and find the chest* leaving out being physically on site.

      Note; These questions were given to fenn who had time to review them, and answer them, as they were presented.
      The question is; will the poem alone give us the “certainty” of the *location* “beforehand”?
      I guess it all depends on how each reads what “location” means.

      • I think the questioner actually inferred *the book* in the first question presented…*when you wrote the treasure hunt*. Either way, I believe TTOTC is probably an important ingredient and should not be disregarded. It is a tool that Fenn has referred to many times. No answers in it… just hints. There are no shortcuts…

  41. I use the poem as my main guide to solving the poem, like a cryptic recipe. It is my job to use all means necessary to find the 9 ingredients in that recipe to make the cake (find the treasure).

    This is the biggest reason you cannot ignore the book. FF said it is required it you are serious about finding the treasure.

    “There are no clues in this book, but there are some hints. What I tell people to do, if you’re really serious about looking for the treasure, get The Thrill of the Chase and read it. Then go back and read the poem over and over and over again. Then go back and read the book again, but slowly looking at every little abstract thing that might catch up in your brain that might be a hint to help you with the clues.”~Moby Dickens

  42. All the Popes and Cardinals and Arch Bishops are trying to decide how many angels can dance on the head of a pin. Fenn, you are the dancing devil of the millennium.

  43. Ok, so there is a new YouTube video out there…..I really don’t know how to copy and paste. But it’s out there.I don’t really care what it says, at this point. Might analyze it later.
    My question is …..the recorder was in someone’s pocket after they had recorded something else. I am getting the impression, they “forgot” to turn it off.
    At this point, they actually recorded Mr. Fenn, in his house, without asking him.
    Wait! I can’t think of a question….

  44. There’s 9 clues in the poem, and there are numerous hints which helps you with the clues, and there are subtle hints contained in the books. If you have no books all subtle hints are gone (I have no books) and now you only have all published (official ?) hints from Fenn, I think those hints and the clues are enough to solve the poem. Actually I used only one of those hints about 200′ and 500′ distance within the chest hiding location in my current solve. Oh, I had one background history related to the home of Brown. And I used Google map and street view (as if I am there) to confirm my solve.

    — MK

    • Well MK – Good luck yo Ya’. Since you have it solved, it is going to be a long, long winter. Stay warm – JDA

  45. Happy New Year, dear searcher family!!! Stick to your area… don‘t dismiss your spot in case the chest is not visible! The last spot needs your time and patience! As a side note… stay healthy, motivated, lucky, happy, cool any may all your wishes come true!!!

    TLo from Berlin ( I am in 2019 already…)

    • I agree with you about the time and patience. It’s a shame, though, as the hike
      was pretty challenging one way (to get to the hidey place). FF is making the
      finder work pretty hard (even after all the work of solving the poem), it seems.
      All IMO. Your pileage, I mean, mileage may vary.

  46. Hello searchers,
    This is for any of you who have Jenny Kyles book,
    “Armchair Treasure Hunts” I was curious if anyone had solved the cypher at the end of the book that were Forrest’s words to searchers.

  47. I’d like to propose a toast to Forrest, Dal, and the whole lot of you …
    My crazy, cooky, obsessed, stubborn, intelligent, generous chase family!
    May 2019 be healthy, happy and full of fun for all of you!
    Happy New Year!

  48. HARRY: [Auld Lang Syne] what does this song mean? My whole life, I dont know what this song means. I mean, ‘Should old acquaintances be forgot’? Does that mean that we should forget old acquaintances, or does it mean if we happened to forget them, we should remember them, which is not possible because we already forgot?
    Sally: Well, maybe it just means that we should remember that we forgot them or something. Anyways, it’s about old friends.

    Happy New Year! Happy Remember Day!

  49. Happy New Year to Dal, Forrest and the whole gang! May the best person find the treasure!
    Hey 2019……Bring it on!

  50. Goodbye to 2018, which will be a part of the past. Hello to 2019, for a new year yet to be written.

    Wishing each of you the very best 2019 has to offer.

    Happy New Year.

  51. Just thinking, about the subtle hints in TTOTC, or the clues in the poem. It all just seems so subjective to me, I’m not the sharpest tack in the box, and maybe that’s my biggest problem with the chase. I keep looking for anything in the poem that seems to have any degree of substance or tangibility, something solid to build a foundation for a solve on. WWWH, (halting), seems solid, and some how more important than WW’s themselves.

    • James;

      I have posted this before, but to me, every word is important. For me WWWH means that one must find a place where warn waters converge with a larger (cooler) body of water. I know, there are thousands of such places in the RM’s north of Santa Fe. I have also said that “in the wood” has an obscure meaning that will point the way to the needed wwwh spot. Just how I see it – JDA

      • Thanks JDA, What I am trying to do, is find a way to solve the poem, while at the same time, avoiding any parts that seems subjective. To me, the subjective parts, open up an endless number of possibilities, that don’t seem practical to try and pursue. I have some experience in inventing things, and in trying to solve problems that don’t seem to have any answers. I have had some success, and what I have learned is that, if there isn’t something that’s even remotely tangible, that I can put a hook into, the effort isn’t going to be successful.

        • James,
          You’re asking a question everyone has asked at one time or another.
          Personally I attempt to think about these comments;
          Why didn’t I think of that.
          What took me so long.
          Learn, find out… the first clue.. nail it down.
          Certainty of the location beforehand.
          Then, think about;
          Difficult but not impossible.
          Not gonna be done on a Sunday picnic or spring break.
          Thousands of years down the road.
          Nail down the first clue or stay home.
          looking for latter clues is a folly.

          You said; ~ ‘Just thinking, about the subtle hints in TTOTC, or the clues in the poem. It all just seems so subjective to me’
          I’m gonna go out on a limb here and assume you’re looking for answers, rather than suggestions, while looking for subtle hints. and/or looking for a single hint for a single deciphering of a clue.
          IF so, I see almost everyone doing the same. When that doesn’t work the look at many other things; a code within the poem, Illustrations, and bring in outside sources, such as the bible, or another language, or magnetic variations [ for examples ].

          I like to suggest something slightly different… I think what is needed first and foremost is to learn / discover the location of all the clues. The idea is to “learn” “find out” where warm waters halt is in a ‘certain area’, rather than, ‘only’ looking for ‘A’ WWH deciphered reference. I think once we have the correct location of the clues, and understand that, we will see how the poem unfolds… and why fenn chose the first clue to be “BIWWW”

          That’s why I asked JDA about his location… he is one of the few that seems to be concentrating on a ‘reason’ for his location, rather than ‘only’ hoping to find the first clue.
          { although his later method confuse the heck out of me, The location of the clues seems more important to finding the correct WWH out the many. So, thinking more about the WhatIFs might imply; think about the location, and not so much deciphering the clues, at first thought}
          The idea is; those “subtle” hints help with getting us to the clues… our job then is to decipher them once we know their “location beforehand”
          LOL I guess I could have just said the latter and kept the post short… Only, I just can’t stand fortune cookie post, so I always attempt to explain a thought process.

          • Thanks Seeker, Yes, I agree about the location beforehand idea. Your posts always have good stuff in them. Your posts do seem long, but you make a lot of good points.

      • JDA ~ ‘For me WWWH means that one must find a place where warn waters converge with a larger (cooler) body of water.’

        Normally flowing water feels cooler vs. stand standing water [ depending on other factors, such as depth, heat absorption from the sun.. etc.]
        For ‘warmer’ waters flowing/converging into ‘cooler *body* of water, there must be another factor involved, such as a warm/hot spring the heats the water that flows into a larger body of water.

        Point being; Does that warmer [ heated water ] limit areas to only thermal activity is present?
        In which case there’s a problem that concerns me. In any given area, there can be a few, if not many, thermal pockets that can heat the flowing waters … how do you decide which point is correct… another words… don’t you need a deciphered later clue[s] to give up the correct WWH?
        You keep saying the “in the wood” provides some kinda of info the determine the correct location of your WWH. My question is… are there other pockets of WWH or warmer waters that feed the cooler water in your area?
        It seems to me if “in the wood” only gives up an area, that doesn’t seem too specific to a correct deciphering of the first clue [nail down or stay home, idea]. Another clue{s} seems necessary to decide which WWH is correct… right?

        • Seeker;

          You are correct. My “in the wood” leads one to a geographical feature in Wyoming. Once at that feature, if one were to draw a circle around this feature, of a few miles, the circle would include a geothermal feature. This geothermal feature will then lead to my WWWH, when it meets a cooler body of water.

          This is more information than I have disclosed before. Hope I have not disclosed too much. If I have, maybe someone will have a HAPPY NEW YEAR!!! – Good luck to all – JDA

          • OK,
            Now the question is…
            Why are you looking at thermal features?
            My point is;
            Did you think WWH had to be a heated source and you when looking for a source, which in the wood gave you an idea of that area? OR because of ‘looking’ at “warm” having to be “heated water” you forced a location on that single thought?

            I’m asking because you, like others – using different method { codes and such } think your one and only is correct. As you said; you have not looked anywhere else. { with almost 30 trips to your location }
            Why can’t Warm Waters refer to liquid waters -?- for example.
            What is it about warm in the poem that you only conclude it has to be heated / thermal water?
            I mean, without being “certain” that heat waters[s] is what this clue is about… is that not just working on a hunch?

          • Seeker; – We have the proverbial chicken/egg conundrum.

            As it happens, I had decided that wwwh had to do with heated water when I worked on my first solve that was around Anaconda, Mt. When that solve did not work out – I wound up on EPA land.I had to look elsewhere.

            About this time, I got my copy of TTOTC. After reading it, I decided that I wanted to look in Wyoming since a few of Forrest’s stories in TTOTC related to Wyoming.

            I searched for geothermal areas in Wyoming, and found what I was looking for.

            I THEN found my “in the woods” definition, and low and behold, my geothermal feature was near my geographical
            “in the wood” feature.

            Although I had “Imported” my geothermal idea from Montana, I just as easily could have been “directed” there by my “in the wood” theory.

            So, My answer is “YES” to both – as chance would have it. – Thanks for asking (I think) – JDA

          • One last question regarding “in the wood”
            I’m not asking what the feature is, I’m asking; is it the only feature around-?- or are there possibly others of the same in other states?
            [ I’m not even sure if your “wood” is an actual land feature of something in the land that depicts something.]
            For clarification on my end;
            A land feature can be a petrified forest, a large rock, a type of plant, tree, that only grows in one area, those types of things.
            A depiction for example; would be a rock that looks like something noticeable, or any thing more abstract to what the feature actual is.

            Just curious. Even though you have said your WWH was always a thermal idea, or heated water, The fact that you may have found a connection to a ‘location’ is interesting [ however, it is only interesting {for me} if WWH refers to thermal anything ]. And that is my point to the possibility we might need to understand where the clues are at, rather than, just look for any type WWH idea… even if the ‘idea’ is correct.

          • Hi JDA and anyone else that wants to chime in.

            First Happy New Year.

            Second, how do you detect where warms waters enter cold waters? Are you using a thermometer? And how exactly do the warm waters halt? If they mix, it doesn’t seem like halting. If you are measuring the water temps., that seems logical but doesn’t lend much to imagination. Can you or anyone explain?


          • Seeker;

            To answer your question, I know of at least two states other than Wyoming that have my “in the wood” geographical feature.

            I agree 100% with your last statement Seeker: we might need to understand where the clues are at, rather than, just look for any type WWH idea… even if the ‘idea’ is correct.

          • HMA

            No I do not use a thermometer..
            Let’t assume that my wwwh is a small stream. For convenience sake, let’s call it “Small Stream”.Small Stream’s warm waters flow downhill, and eventually merge with the “Big River”. From the point of their convergence on, as an entity, the waters of Small Stream halt, or cease to exist. Those waters now become known as the waters of the Big River.
            At each point where waters join the waters of the Big River, those names are not added to the Big River. It does not become the Small Stream/Big River etc. Therefore; at the point of convergence, or confluence, Hope that this helps – JDA

          • Hear me all,

            How are you using “halt” – halting?
            If its the water[s] I don’t see how JDA’s theory works… sounds like merging waters to me.
            But if warm halts being warm then it could work, kinda. Warm has a great variation, it needs catalyst for an ideal type of temperature… do we need to bring a some thing to measure the tempt??
            It comes down to [ in this theory ] warm vs. water on what is referenced to halt.
            Hence my problem, if halt reference to only water or only warm… there is two possible scenarios.
            How do we choose the correct one, beforehand?
            The theory for me doesn’t nail down this line in the poem using thermal water mixing with cooler water, because it doesn’t really explain what halt refers to without guess one or the other [ not to mention, exactly where is this halting taking place ]. For example; Lets use fenn’s river bathing spot; The thermal water rolls into a river-let which go into the a larger section of the river.
            Does the halt begin where the warm meets the cold? Does it begin at the larger section of river farther down? Which could be the distance of a 1000′ or a 1/4 mile or 100′ from the hot source to the cold water…
            It doesn’t say to me, why didn’t I think of that or what took me so long. Or I nailed down anything

            Unless both scenarios have the warm and the waters doing the halt (halting?)

            Take away the thermal idea, and warm could halt at freezing, and water halts being liquid… having both warm and waters halt. {using the idea that halt means stop in some form}

            That’s just three simple scenarios… however, in all of them nothing tells us where anything is taking place… no specific location. It is still a dart toss… even if one of those scenarios is correct.
            How do we find the location of the clues?
            Deciphering a clue references doesn’t seem to be doing the job of; ‘knowing’ where [ the location] or why there or why fenn choose this as the first clue.

          • JDA,

            It’s just me, I know… but that doesn’t narrow down anything. In the wood, if used has you say, shouldn’t allow multiple place for a search, especially states away… there is no certainty of the location beforehand, imo. It’s another dart toss.

          • Hi JDA – Thanks for the explanation.

            You say that “Small stream” flowing downhill is an example of warm waters. I had always thought that waters flowing down would be colder to due the snowmelt at higher elevations. Do you see them as warm because of the elevation and thus being closer to the sun?

            In regards to halting you suggest that when the “Small stream” enters a river that the “Small stream” halts. Seems kind of reasonable but it really doesn’t halt in my mind. Just mixes. Do you have multiple streams converging with a river to meet the “waters” part of the poem?

          • Hi Seeker – Thanks for the reply.

            IMO, I see wwws as a place of waters but not in the sense that most do. I also think halt deserves some imagination.

            If we are supposed to use logic to understand the poem it probably would have been solved before now it seems. Forrest has told us that we shouldn’t let logic distract us from the poem and several time has talked about how important imagination is.

            I think most of not all searchers have complicated the search with knowledge.

          • Seeker;

            When I said that I know of at least two states where my “in the wood” feature existed, I did not state that these two states were among the 4 that are related to the chase – Just to clarify – JDA

          • JDA,

            Still to my point… why could one of the other features be a correct are for WWH?
            Many think there is distance between clues { as you do or did } and really can’t be proven wrong { although I’ll argue three clues in their correct order would be needed to travel from WWH to get to any place that is not easy walking distance or line of site } So if the same feature is in ND or TX and the clues lead into a search state, it still possible.

            What I’m attempting to understand is how we can be certain of the place we need to be and start at [regardless of any state]… I would think there wouldn’t be multiple choices for that certainty… even IF we are not 100% certain as to what WWH refers to.

          • Seeker;

            Sorry, but I can not divulge how I connect my geographical feature and my geothermal feature. It would just give too much away – 🙂 – JDA

          • OK JDA,
            No problem… I thought the connection was “in the wood” … but you might have something else in mind.

        • Seeker, JDA,

          Selecting thermal features to me is tossing darts. How can one thermal feature be nailed down as wwh from the many thermal features. The thermal features, [hot springs] are the same from one to the other, they may look different, but are the same. Some have geysers, but in the end they are still the same. The other thing I would like to bring up, most hot springs are a single water water source and not plural, remember waters is plural, but mainly flow together to create plural waters, that do not halt regardless that they merge with cold water, the warm water does not halt in the beginning and do not halt anywhere thereafter.

          I’m saying that thermal water is the wrong idea as well as warm meeting cold water does not halt, it may work in theory but not in practice. I firmly believe when warm waters is literal, the same as the rest of the clues, to me as well need to be factual places and things, not theoretical. To be realistic halt does mean to stop completely.

          JDA, “in the wood” is literal, not an obscure meaning, that again is tossing darts, especially trying to tie “in the wood” to help identify wwwh. The poem should be followed in consecutive order as the stanzas are written, what your doing is reassembling the poem to fit your area, which is messing with the poem no matter how you look at it.

          Folks trying to say warm waters has something to do with thermal hot springs or where warm water meets cold as halt is folly, at least to me it’s a very slippery slope and a rabbit hole that leads to nothing. Besides F indicated one has learn wwwh, picking hot springs a the merging of water, is a guess and nothing more. The poem is straight forward not pointing to guesses.

          Real logic and real physics and literally, IMO will have better results.

          Just Say’n

          • CharlieM ~’ I’m saying that thermal water is the wrong idea as well as warm meeting cold water does not halt ”

            Exactly what is halt, halted, halting in your mind?
            The waters flow or lack of movement [ be they warm, cool or muddy ].
            Warm in their temperature?
            Both being; a specific temperature of waters that stop being warm and moving?
            To say thermal heating of water is a rabbit hole or guess… you need to be more specific to what exactly is halting referencing or not referencing.

            I personally think the idea is croc… but the point is; what is being halt[ed] and how do we find the specific thing that is being halt[ed]
            It sounds to me you’re only using the waters as a stationary body. OK sure, which body and where? and what does halt mean to warm, if anything at all.

          • Well Seeker as I said, in my mind halt means to completely stop. Halting means coming to a stop. Waters comes from a single source in the beginning then as other water joins much later on. I’m also thinking along the line that all water starts out cold in the beginning in the RM and other cold water my join to create waters, the exception to this rule are hot springs that are not included.

            As the waters move down out of the mountains into the plains gets warmer. Lets say the longest run of the waters is warm so a creek or stream, etc can be referred to warm waters. Warm waters doesn’t necessarily need to be warm where it starts, its the final product.

            Who says the water has to be warm where it starts or has to be multiple at the source. Just because it says where warm waters doesn’t necessarily mean at the start. Truly water can halt at a pond or lake that has no outlet or stops where it dries out or not enough water to continue to flow, or not enough moisture to begin the flow, so the flow of water at the start is halted or stopped for lack of moisture.

            Jeeze, I wish I could write better, but my investigative mind tells me to look at all possible factors, not just one idea.

            Just Say’n

      • JDA,
        If there are “thousands of such places in the RM’s north of Santa Fe”, how is it possible for the LGII, with ONLY the poem and a map of the Rockies, to get AS CLOSE as the first two clues?

        How is LGII able to interpret and deduce, at a minimum, the correct and intended forms for both ‘WWWH’ and ‘halt’ with her limited resources? Given, we’re all just making educated guesses, but is LGII more educated or a better guesser than the rest of us, or could it be something else?

        Note: I’m NOT saying ‘WWWH’ and ‘halt’ comprise the first two clues.

        • Hey Joe- the little girl from India can find WWWH and the canyon on google earth. in fact anyone on a computer can find these. right or wrong.
          what cant be found on google earth is the home of Brown. this is the message Forrest was trying to relay. so then the question becomes this…what could the home of Brown possibly be that cant be seen on google earth? or maybe better yet…Where could the home of Brown possibly be that it cant be seen on google earth?
          so the Little girl from India comment has more bearing as to what the HOB may be, as opposed to anything to do with WWWH or canyon down. this rules out HOB being the home of brown trout or brown bears as both of these can be seen on google earth.

          i think.

  52. The home of Brown University is Providence, RI.
    Only one state has a motto on its seal that refers to Providence.
    The definition of Providence seems in line with what ff has said.
    Is this a clue?
    For example, if someone were using the Colorado (red) river as the warm waters and using where they halt as the CD, would this then take them below the state of Colorado?
    Strangely enough, there is a Continental Divide, NM, although I believe sticking to geography would be more beneficial.

    • Wanye,

      Are you using providence as wisdom? and a place to be below… 41 degrees .. may for the line If you’ve been wise and found the blaze. Being on the 43 degree line?

      There still the small problem with ‘ structure ‘… at least I would think its a problem, because your using the university as hoB.

      • Seeker,
        Yes, I struggled with that. However, I’m using a city as the hoB.
        If I said it’s not associated with a structure…that would be technically correct.
        Just random thoughts.

        • Continuing the thought. If I put N below it, now I have a tangible coordinate.
          37 degrees N

  53. Let’s follow a typical river from the source to the end. The water either comes up from the ground to the surface or gathers at a spot from the melting snow and starts to flow. The former river can be hot or warm, and the latter cold. Once the water starts to flow it is given a name, be it a stream, a brook, a creek, or a river (let’s just call all of them rivers), and will eventually end up in one of the following states.

    1) It will flow into another larger river. Usually the name associated with it stops there, and the river continues to flow under the name of the other river. The name stops, but the water will not stop flowing; it only mixes with the other water, but not halting.
    2) It can merge with the other river. Usually the size of two rivers are comparable, and usually a different name is given to the merged river. Names associated with two rivers stop there, but the water will not stop flowing; they mix with each other, but not halting.
    3) It can enter into a lake or a lagoon. The name stops there, and the flow usually stops there also.
    3A) If a lake does not have outlets, the flow really stops there. You can consider that a halting even though the individual water particles still move around, and they start to evaporate into the air. Does that considered as a real halting? No, I don’t think so. An evaporation is the right word.
    3B) If a lake has outlets the water in the lake slowly moves to one of the outlets and continues to flow. Usually a new name is give to that river. In that case I don’t think you can call it a halting at the water inlet.
    4) It can enter into the sea. The water stops there in a usual sense but actually the flow continues into the sea and becomes a sea current. You may call it a halting. But since we don’t have a sea close by, let’s forget it.

    But why didn’t Fenn use the word “stop”, “cease”, “evaporate” or some other words for it? As I listed several possibilities above, the only case called a halting is 3B. But it doesn’t seem to look like a good candidate to me, I mean, it is not so dramatic to be included as a clue in Fenn’s poem.

    But what if a river itself has a feature that can be considered as a “halt”? A temporary stop or a change of an abrupt flow direction?

    — MK

    • MK… Why only consider the water as it flows down stream and not that you are walking upstream in it as fishermen do? When the warmth stops, you’ve passed the warm feeder spring. Back up 4 feet, stay warm, you’re at the WWWH. “Take it in the canyon down” may not mean “YOU take it in the canyon dow” retracing your steps back down stream. The warm waters are accepting the cold waters and both flow down together a distance that is too far to walk…. let it go … don’t even think about going there. From the WWWH spot look around for a likely HOB. Don’t be meek, go there. …… just a backwards bicycle possibility.

      • Hi OS2,
        I understand your thinking. But I still think the “halt” refers to the movement of the water, not the temperature. In your case I can say the temperature changes from warm to cold, but the water still flows without stopping, so that spot is not the WWWH location IMO.
        — MK

    • From Google article “Waters”:
      “Waters may refer to:
      A body of water”

      From Google article “Body of water”:
      “Note that there are some geographical features involving water that are not bodies of water, for example waterfalls, geysers and rapids. ”
      “A body of water does not have to be still or contained; rivers, streams, canals, and other geographical features where water moves from one place to another are also considered bodies of water”
      A flowing river is a body of water (“waters”). Technically, by definition, the waters end/stop/halt at a waterfall or rapids.

    • MK – Some good ponderings on WWWH. I have a couple of other thoughts along this line.

      First, as others have pointed out already, a stream is a generic term for a moving body of water, so rivers, creeks, and brooks are all considered streams. So what is the dividing line between a river, creek, and brook? From what I have been able to find, the line is very blurry but it technically has to do with the quantity of water.

      Secondly, a mountain lake with no outlet is called a tarn, and in my opinion a tarn is not something to consider with respect to the clues in the poem. Warm waters would first need to halt in the tarn, which I would consider snow or glacier melt travelling over a short distance. This would be pretty cold water, though if you consider above-freezing to be warm, then I suppose you could make the WWWH side of things work. But then you would need to take a canyon down from WWWH, and in the case of a tarn there would be no outlet, thus no outflowing stream to carve away said canyon. In looking around at various WWWH locations, I think looking for a canyon at the same time is very important.

      • That’s right, Blex,
        You should be looking for the canyon down once you decided which WWWH you’re going to start your quest. But according to Fenn, even if you identified the correct WWWH and the canyon down, you may be heading in the wrong direction like other searchers who were close within 200′ or 500′ from the chest but veered off to far away places.
        — MK

        • You should be looking for the canyon down once you decided which WWWH you’re going to start your quest

          I think that is the problem. I don’t disagree that a canyon of some sorts will be near, it’s the looking part I have a problem with. This kind of thinking gets away from the poem. This is where searchers are leaving the poem. They get out their trusty map and start looking for that combo. Where some form of warm waters halt and a near by canyon. This is exactly what happens when you are guessing.
          When searchers start looking at a map to answer the questions they have. Thinking that the map has the solve when it’s the poem that has the solve.
          We don’t know what is halting for one, and two, we don’t know what f is referencing. And, with him not supplying the answer, anything would be considered a guess at this point. The whole poem needs to be solved, to guess at a wwwh then a near by canyon, valley, gulch, ditch, whatever is the point that the map comes out and the searcher leaves the poem. Wrong direction.
          I’m not saying you will know later clues before wwwh, but you will know where you are trying to go. Have to remember, the poem just contains 9 clues, the path you take will have those 9 clues, the 9 clues does not solve the poem, the poem solves the 9 clues. With some clues not being able to be solved, only the poems spot it gives you is how to find your path, which, contains the 9 clues. Also, the first couple clues were never solved by anyone. Not as we feel something as being solved. Not just showing up, but solved. All these people and clue one has never been solved. All these years. If you think about it, that’s impossible. Unless there is no answer to it.
          The niche in this whole thing is to separate from trying to solve clues. Especially when f has said some clues need BotG, but we will be confident in our path beforehand. To the clue solvers, how can you know your path beforehand when you haven’t been on your path yet? He didn’t even know he had 9 clues until he was done. The poem was written to find a spot, not to solve each and every clue. Just the fact that we don’t know the clues in the first place should be reason enough for a searcher to pause and see that trying to solve all the clues is a foolish way of trying to find the treasure.
          Could a clue searcher find the chest or solve the poem with just the poem? You should only need the poem, nothing else. How then could you find clues without the ability to research? Or use a map?
          You should only put the poem in front of you and solve it, if you need to use other forms of material, then you leave the poem and the correct solution, IMO. If your solve involved referencing some map to find the first two clues or whatever, throw it away. If you needed to include a history lesson of the area to let others know why this is your start place, throw it away. If you could show how solving the poem got you a start position, then carry on, you may be on the right track, all IMO.

          • poisonivey- great comment. it would seem that the best way to handle this situation is to find the chest first and then reverse engineer the path.
            but then, this feat would require a genius like the world has never seen.

            i think.

  54. Happy New Year 2019, Chasers! What say we finally find the treasure chest this year? 😉

    • I agree, Blex!My New Years resolution is to stop pussyfooting around and bring her home.

    • yes, find that chest and just take it. . . . as in take a photo. easy.
      then your quest will cease.
      not a battle,
      not a struggle,
      a quest.
      not much effort at all. just take.

      i think.

      • Respectfully have to disagree Bob. Green and Gold are waiting for the right solution; might take awhile.

        • Hank- from this blogs home page…”Forrest is a master of the double entendre”

          you can disagree with me if you like.
          the word “take” can mean many things.

  55. Another thought on WWWH is to imagine you are looking at a map ( a good map) which shows the boundary line between trout waters (cold waters) and the waters that are warm ( waters that are home to warm water fish).

    It could be possible to define this boundry line by consulting a map that was created to discern between these waters. Departments of Natural Resources and Fish and Game Departments of certain States use the terms Cold and Warm waters in defining fishing waters.

    Another way of saying Where Warm Waters Halt is to say Begin It Where Cold Waters ( Trout / Special Trout Waters) Begin. There are many such places in the mountains north of Santa Fe. Our task is to decern which one.

    It has been said that the place where the chest is secreted away is Special, a special place to Forrest. It is possible that this could be Special Trout Waters. The Home Of Brown…..Brown Trout. A natural history of the Brown Trout and its introduction into certain areas of the American West might shed some light on WWWH.

    I have looked at WWWH from many angles and it seems to me that THE ANGLER ANGLE is the most logical to date. IMO
    -guy michael-

    • Guy- “the angler angle” good one.

      but hey WWWH is the first instruction for direction so, WWWH is a big area. and Forrest said there are many places where WWWH.

      Guy, have you ever fished Lake Tawakoni?
      oh, you dont know where it is? well then just the name sounds like its in peru or some exotic location but its not. let me give you directions on how to get there.
      1. begin in the united states.
      2. go to the state of Texas.
      3. find the city of Dallas, Texas.
      4. go due east of Dallas about 20 miles give or take a few.

      I start at United States because i dont know where you are from Guy. just as Forrest used WWWH because he knew people from all over the world were invited to look for his treasure. he is speaking to a worldwide audience.
      so, you see WWWH being the first instruction will be a large area. probably about the size of Yellowstone park give or take. then of course it follows that the canyon down will be smaller than WWWH because it is the second instruction. just as texas is smaller than the united states.

      i think.

      • Hi Bob,
        I disagree with your idea of WWWH being a large area. I think it may be a specific location which can be identified easily. I think there is a small area solve is going on these days rather than a large area solve.
        — MK

        • MajinKing- you may disagree, but in any set of directions they usually begin with a large area and then each step thereafter gets smaller and smaller.
          its only natural.
          i think.

          • The comment below is by Dal chatting with dollerbill about the exact idea you mentioned, Bob Greene.
            Take it for what its worth, but many have thought the same. You can find the full conversation here on this site.

            { in part }
            dal on December 29, 2013 at 12:41 am said:
            I agree..
            Forrest once told a searcher who suggested that the entire YNP could be the place where warm waters halt that he was wrong…
            That it was a specific place and not a region…
            Which suggests to me that it could not be something like the continental divide or the western front of a range of mountains…as has been suggested in other posts on this blog..

          • thanks Seeker, i found that comment and read it. Dal repeats what Forrest told a searcher. well then that certainly means that YNP is not WWWH. and that WWWH is a specific place and not a region. so my comment about sets of directions beginning at a large area and ending in a smaller area are incorrect too. this means Forrest’s set of directions are non typical. much like everything Forrest does. lol

          • The $Bill comment has been bashed around since it was made. It is definitely a great one to keep in mind…or not, while trying to move forward.

          • I don’t know Bob. Could be that any place on a map with a name could be a specific place. Up to the interpretation I guess. Like a city, that could be a wwwh candidate. That’s pretty large, so it still keeps your idea in the mix of possible. It’s always confusing, a city could be but a region of the city not? lol, round and round. I say, just go by what the poem tells you, as long as the ATF’s back it up, you’re good to go.
            Is time wasted on the chase, or is spending time on the research of the chase a waste? Just wondering, because by now, I think I probably could have learned Chinese. Then again, I don’t plan on going to China, so ppfffttt…

        • WHAT, SEEKER? I never saw that $bill comment, or maybe I forgot it… I do that a lot lately. I was just about to suggest a different big-to-small example for Bob Green’s post… An example that may also identify the word IT in the ‘take it down’ phrase. ……… If the WWWH is a big region, like Yellowstone NP, then the ‘IT’ in the next phrase might be referring to the name of the big region too. …. EX: Begin at YS National Park, and take IT (YS river) in the canyon down. ….. what else could ‘IT’ logically refer to in the brief cryptic communication? Makes ya’ think.

          • Os,

            In my line of thinking… there’s a difference between a region and a large area.
            Ex. Manhattan is approx. 13 miles long, Lexington Ave. in Manhattan is approx 6 miles long [ about 1/2 the distance ]
            Manhattan would be considered a region, while Lexington Ave would be more specific… Using this example;
            The Rocky Mountain range would be a region, while the CD is more specific.
            Mud puddle to an ant, or covering Philly with your thumb, idea.

            So while a clue can be a large place… I think we should keep in mine that the comments about the first clue solved always involved the second clue as well. Might it be that the second clue brings a more specific location that is needed and still be on the CD? [for example]

            Look at it this way [ just for this example only]… Warm waters refers to all waters in the RM range where they divert either west or east [ which the exception of the triple divide that has a Northward direction as well ] Each area of the watershed will feed many canyon areas… however… is there on in-particular we should know about? Hence the idea of the big picture, and a specific location on a large scale area ‘within’ a region?

            The same idea could be given about YSP, a region. Yet, is Geyser a region or a more specific location?
            Or Never Summer Mountains is a specific area [ and very large ] of the RM range. line of thinking.
            I personally think many in the chase tend to, only attempt to answer a single clue as a single individual idea all its own. I tend to look at the clues as connected. If one clue is not properly deciphered and works with the others… the poem falls apart.
            Basically saying; you can’t skip any clue references because [ as we have been told ] the are “contiguous”… joined touching, coupled together [ we need to determined how the are connected ]… hence the idea… all the ingredients are needed to fully understand how the poem can unfold, today, tomorrow and a thousand years down the road, for the most part.

            I’m very careful when thinking about… large vs. region. With that said, I think all the clues revolve around the first clue in a manner that contains that ‘big picture’ thought. Without it, the poem can not be solved, imo. Without WWH’s reference, we might not ‘know’ what the other clues end up being.

      • I suppose there’s always a certain amount of probability, but how much
        probability is likely to be unknown. I think WWWH can logically be defined as a relatively small place. And I think “warm waters” can be
        defined as something more personal than a bunch of water(s) flowing
        around on/in the ground somewhere in the mountains All IMO.

      • Lake Tawakoni is full of Brown trout. Me and my friend Nick Osby once tried the place. Pretty close to Dallas. I really enjoyed myself.

  56. I don’t understand the need to pick apart words that are in the poem such as “it”. Sure F looked up words in the dictionary, I believe he did that to find a word(s) that means the same thing such as ‘treasure” and used trove or chest to mean the same thing in the poem. Another example, “tarry Scant” means “don’t be late, you have little time” [my interpretation as it was used by my grandpa and father and those two words were used separately on occasions but had the same meaning].

    The point that I’m trying to say as F put it, in plain English and straight forward. Why mess around with words, which take things out of context as this creates more confusion? I for one am not going to dig into every word, I’ll use the words as they are written and in context of what is written in the poem.

    Who buffaloed who on this topic, was it F or searchers? It was the searchers, just because F mentioned using a dictionary. At least that is IMO. Yes sir/mam a Purist.

    Just Say’n

    • Charlie, Writers paint context with words. Mr. Fenn’s dilemma was painting with words that are truthful but keep the context obscure. If it weren’t a treasure hunt, surely he would have used plain-speak words, to direct persons to his dear place. There would be no confusion.

      I n the 6 word clause that starts with the instruction BEGIN, is an unnamed place described as WWH. That clause is followed by the conjunction ‘and’, and another 6 word clause. The word “IT” is embedded in the 2nd clause and refers to something in the first clause. Why weren’t other names used for WWH and IT used? Maybe their relationship is that they both have same name? Or that one is so well known, the other is an automatic association.

      If you figure out the NAME of WWWH, I think it is a reasonable deduction that you will also know the NAME of a geographical feature that points the way from WWH to the HOB. “Canyon down” is confirmative information. The Jump Start chapter supports a NAME consideration.

      Just say’n too, OS2.

  57. How to figure the I put one foot down and stepped on it then the next. Get up that bank and spot us some fish young man. I wonder how much property is still his. He bought the 2
    artist old homes. the one in Taos and the one on the reservation he moved the home to the
    Buffalo Bill museum from. I still think Sentiment. Family from temple and the West Yellowstone trips or Peggy. I saw having a deed in the chest and turning it in gives you
    legal claim to the chest if it was in the park. Well I don’t know for sure. But think myself
    that sentimental place is where it is at. I though Tarry scant was a fast short trip to where
    you can Marvel Gaze at something unknown in the distance. I have a gut feeling this
    year. Never mind. I Wonder how FF is doing. Maybe he is working on the Forrest Fenn
    Fishing Fly. I wish him Well..

  58. 3Q) It seems I ask it every year during these Six Questions, but it is such a curiosity that I have to do so again. Do you feel anyone is getting closer? Do you feel you will get to congratulate the finder of your treasure within the next few years, or do you have a sense it will remain hidden for many more? Can you say?
    Searchers speak to me about their search places only in generalities. I don’t know that anyone has been closer to the treasure than about 200’.

    This statement was in the same discourse of 6 Q’s when “Little Indie” quote came out, Feb 6, 2016

    5Q) Your treasure hunt has inspired people worldwide to discover history, culture and nature, but many people, (even in the US) might be deterred because they don’t live near the Rockies or can’t afford to travel. Should they be deterred? Can a little girl in India, who speaks good English, but only has your poem and a map of the US Rocky Mountains, work out where the treasure is? And would she be confident as she solves each clue, or only confident when she has solved them all?
    I wish I had another treasure to hide in the Appalachians. The little girl in India cannot get closer than the first two clues. There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun. f

    The framing of these two questions leave a clear distinction that WWWH and clue #2 are easy enough for a child to find on any good map of the Rockies, possibly even the one ff produced in TFTW, however there are “only 9 clues”, ff does not state that all 9 are geographic, but what about hints? IMO the answer from Forrest is tantamount to a hint, now had he said we are getting warmer when we think like a child, then perhaps ICE is the place WWWH.

    All water (s) halt at 32 degrees, look at the big picture of hints that the poem seems to spell out, perhaps we do not see the forest for the trees, or the Hints from the Clues.

    Is the second clue, the other one Indie CAN find “Canyon Down”? Perhaps too far to walk starts at 32 degrees, even a child knows that is where Ice forms, also that South is Down. Only two rivers start in the Rockies and cross the 32 degree latitude and flow south.

    The Rio Grande, AKA Rio Bravo and Rio Pecos are the only two rivers that flow South out of the Rockies.

    What is the reason a hint is distinguished easily from a clue? Try to imagine why you must be WISE to find the Blaze? Because there is an element of “Time” involved, not just intelligence, but timing, refer to the line “Hint of riches new and old” clearly these are elements that the 3 wise men knew….timing is important for finding our blaze.

    Timing of Forrest Fenn’s Birthday, August 22, 1930, timing of a blaze of some kind, could be as simple as the golden fleece that covers the rockies starting on that date, Aspen Wood.

    Food for “Winter Thoughts” by Tom Terrific.

    • I heard Something interesting about the use of look at the big picture.
      It related to All the worlds people. We are all humans. I think why we are
      alike maybe Family oriented. Maybe look at FF Family. But your northern
      New Mexico maybe spot on.

    • TT,

      An interesting read but, Rio Grande was nixed by ff, looks like Rio Pecos might be, who knows. The use of numbers I’ve never agreed with and how the number of something is tied to longitude & latitude to find anything, is a dart toss, at least to me.

      Down might be south or down in elevation, I’d think elevation as we’are looking at geography not a compass heading.

      Again an interesting read

      Just Say’n

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