Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt Part Seventy Four…


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639 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt Part Seventy Four…

  1. East Coast Folks:
    Looking for something to do while waiting for spring…???
    The brand new Forrest Fenn Gold Medallion Treasure Hunt is now underway with clues to the hidey spot in the Appalachian Mountains. Find the rules and the clues here….

    Jenny has hidden the first object and I guarantee this is easier than finding Forrest’s chest…but the clues to future hidey spots will be more difficult as each new medallion is hidden…This will be the easiest set of clues to follow…

  2. Of acute interest is the revelation of Forrest purchasing two homes that belonged to artists.

    Is this mentioned in anything that Forrest wrote? I only have read TTOTC and the poem and have steered clear of his other books intentionally. I am not sure if this has helped to keep the
    waters from being clouded.

    If anyone knows….could you direct me?
    I think that the locations of these may prove to shine a light on how much geography knowlege Forrest has under his cap, his familiarity with certain areas, and possibly other details that could prove handy.

    Thank You ever-so-much…there will be a star in your crown.

    • Is this a recent revelation? Can you site source? That might be helpful.

      Over a period of several years, he acquired property adjoining his gallery in Santa Fe, a compound which ultimately included the gallery, primary residence and three guest houses. One of these was Olga’s and is mentioned in TTOTC. I don’t know if the others were artists’ homes.

      He also purchased the San Lazaro pueblo, home to many pottery artists.

      None of these are in the search area, though.

    • Forrest purchase the estate of some artists who practiced in the Taos are during its Heyday. Snow Blind, but New Mexico is sunny now… and TT is stuck south of Santa Fe in 3′ of snow.

      TT ah sus ordanez

      • 3′ ?!? Taking a stroll thru that will numb the nuts fer sure. Your boys will retreat to your spleen for warmth. I suggest canasta over impotence.

        • Aard, you are the BARD… Ha! Ha! FROZEN WAY SOUTH OF Santa Fe see: Sierra Blanca AKA Ski Apache has 5′ thats more than most CO ski runs and it’s almost 200 miles south of here. This is a real winter in the Southern Rockies and what we are use to, when I grew up it seems we had a lot more snow runoff in spring, either way the first real TC hunts will not come till June or later. I live at 7800′ and my snow thrower has burned thru 3 gallons this year already. TT

    • Guy M,

      I would think F was involved in a way to his own treasure hunts. To find a dig site, or looking for sunken treasure, or any other antiquities that he possessed was more than likely involved in searches with little information that involved knowledge of geography.

      As far as F owning property, to me is mute and not helpful in finding the treasure as most is in SF and below the 8.25 mile lower boundary set by F, except for Taos. If your interest is of the property he owned and not tied the tc, well go for it.

      Just Say’n

    • That was in the Santa Fe New Mexican news paper archives from the
      late 1970″s I think. One was Leon Gaspard home in Taos. Home was full
      of all kinds of animals. that made a mess of the place. FF restored it.
      Wanted to move Leon’s grave to the apple tree outback where he wanted to be at. The other was how he acquired the home he moved to the Buffalo
      Bill place in Cody from Montana. Henry Sharp I think. from crow reservation. I am sure long ago
      sold. I had saw there was a lot of private land right up and just in Yellowstone
      outer bounders. Like from Cody to entrance of park. Any thing owned by the
      double omega ranch. What I had though before I posted. Just rambling
      on Which I probably should not do. I Think FF blazed his own trail threw art.
      Maybe look quickly down at your own feet and blaze your own trail. Or you
      have your own power to be successful get at it. Bad idea for the Blaze.
      But FF has such a massive history to look at a room full of historians to
      put him in perspective. Check the Santa Fe New Mexican archives.

      • I better explain myself and not get banned talking about FF property.
        I was watching a Fenn you tuber talking about the legal aspect
        of finding the chest on the lands listed on the TFTW map.
        BLM. Reservation land no ownership there. And then another you tuber talking about over time some property even just within the
        Yellowstone was sold privately. I don’t believe that but he was
        showing private lands from Cody to the park limits. I wondered
        if the Poem solve lead to a land say on the park edge. That FF owned
        that there would be no legal challenge. Some thing he is using for
        the hunt. By no means don’t go on any of his property’s. That would
        be dumb. I guess I really didn’t have anything useful to say.
        My Bad..

    • Take a look to the sky before die, it’s the last time you WILL. Just playing in here and sea

  3. Almost done reading my Osborne Russel book i got for Christmas and let me tell you that is exactly where some of the twisted talk in the poem is coming from, in my opinion. I got a couple paradigm shifts from it which will help pass the winter evaluating those new angles.

    Wishing you all a Happy New Year!!

    • That’s a really good book. I wouldn’t have known about it if Forrest hadn’t written about it. You can almost see the West changing before your eyes. It’s so very sad at the end.

    • I really enjoyed “ Journal of a Trapper “ it was very interesting to get a day by day account of ORs life as a trapper in the Rockies. I initially read it looking for a clue, but I have went back and reread it just for funsies.

  4. If we’re lucky, the east coast won’t get any snow we’ll be able to search the whole winter!

  5. hey Jake Faulker…my answer to your question at the end of the last odds n ends section-
    yes, and its not a theory. second place is available.

  6. Happy new years all you wild and crazy kids. Forrest foremost.

    Thinking about intersections in 2019 from Forrest’s OUAW book launch. Sometimes folks need space. Space is good and brings the unknown to you door. Reminds me of wide open spaces by Dixie Chicks. Mistakes are good. Glad mine were left with the stoke if midnight in the new years. You?

    Odd end indeed…OUAW intersections. Worth looking at that video again I believe.

    Namaste in 2019.

    Peace and may we all find what we realky seek.

    • Happy New Years Twingem

      I think of an intersection, or meeting place, as a tie down, an anchor. You generally will meet the same people, talk the same talk (As I get older my friends tend to tell me the same story at least 3+ times and I always just pretend I am hearing it for the first time), walk the same paths (and that has made all the similarity). That is probably the one thing I am most thankful to Forrest for, the chance to get out of the rut (or worn out carpet) of everyday life. I have found myself in some really beautiful areas. I have gotten my family out to areas we wouldn’t normally have gone (including the Cody Museum), and renewed the desire to branch away from similarity and back into the realm of Robert Frost (both poetically and literally as I have taken the less traveled path many time now).

      I hope this year goes great for you. What do you seek?

      • Idle –

        I wrote a longer comment but didn’t post it

        Have you ever read Brown’s Descent by Frost?

        • I had not but now I’ve read it thrice and feel as though I’ve lost my mind upon that slippery slope.

          • It’s also #23 in the tome.

            If you’re a person that believes 23 has anything to do with anything.

          • I immediately thought of Michael Jordan. Otherwise when I wake up I might have more thoughts.

    • Twingem,
      Happy New Year! The OUAW video you speak of, where can we find it? I’ll be lucky to get the revised but didn’t know about a video? Is there a link to it? Thank you.

  7. Hunters please leave a painted rock anything that’s not trash in your search areas, something you know will be use or seen by another searchers or possible just a passer by. If you don’t want to mark your spot than leave it in a open park or area. Remember Forrest is a war hero who has friends and family take there own lifes. When lost in a treasure map we can forget about the pain in the story’s he has said or written. I see the greatest pain in my search it wasnt all Rose’s for me I came home shaken by the history I learned in the areas I searched. So many forgotten lands, and worse PEOPLE. Only takes a minute to change someone’s life for the better:) God bless and Happy Hunting friends.

    • Barbara we will do that! I just got one of my daughters a rock painting kit. I’ll take a few with me on my next trip. That’s a fun task for them and gets them involved.

    • That’s akin to littering. Nature should be left alone, instead of littering it. IMO.

      • JW & Tall Andrew:
        Come on, sheesh.
        Do you think, that the
        city/town/hamlet where you reside, was always there????
        Sounds like too much kool aid and no introspection.

      • You are right. We shouldn’t add anything to wilderness. Forrest, please remove the treasure chest.


      • I’ve seen plenty of rock furniture (like massive thrones), unnecessary cairns, carvings on living trees, etc that someone clearly thought would add to the “beauty” of the outdoors. I’m not even including the stuff that’s clearly vandalism. If you want to decorate some woods to your taste you should buy some property instead of assuming that everyone else will agree with your tastes on how to decorate public places.

        I’m not discouraging the rocks for kids idea completely, but I think that a city park or someplace like that would be a better choice.

        Batty, back when there was tons of wilderness, people could stake out a small section of it, do what they wanted there, and no one would notice or care. Now when wilderness is scarcer and each area is used by many people, changing those areas to suit yourself becomes an issue.

        Copper, IMO Forrest hid the chest someplace that is neither wilderness nor pristine.

        • It’s a punk rock the size of a small small fist. Please try to lighten up. Where I live the wilderness is everywhere and kids getting involved is a bonus. And, IMO, he hid the treasure that is both pristine and very wild. Are we solving poems or are we casting stones here?

    • What I have done in the past is found a beautiful rock from the area and left it where I was searching. It did obviously look like someone had been there but it’s not considered littering.

    • Art/vandalism. A thing created, perceived by one as pure good, by another as equally evil. A theme I find recurring in my search, my life.

      It’s appearance here shook me enough to write, which I don’t often. I am not writing now to take a side. I see the beauty in both. I guess I just want to highlight it. Point out – Hey! Notice this! We disagree so completely on so many things. How will we handle it?

      Please feel free to disregard this post drenched in personal opinion. But. I just can’t help but think. We might get a little closer to the prize if we stood back a bit from our strongest opinion and listened good for a moment to the guy with the opposing viewpoint. Maybe! Even follow a hint in his direction;) I think something amazing might just be hidden in the moderation.

      • Even, your response was very well thought out and if we all would think more like this I would bet the world would be a better place. Cudo’s to you !

    • “Leave No Trace” is what a lot of outdoor recreationists live by. Leaving painted rocks would give the Chase a bad name if it became common with searchers, imo. I’ve picked up and hauled out trash on my searches, as I do when not searching. I’m guessing non searchers outnumber us and depending on the area, might haul out a painted rock or turn it over or cover it up.

    • I usually carry trash out with me, but the grape soda can I found I left right where it was.

    • Rock painting is a fine activity for little kids, but I really don’t want to see them on nature’s trails any more than I want to see discrete doilies hung on nude statues in the museums (or in the Congressional rotunda).

      • Geocaching is fun! It’s not litter if it’s fun! Metal Detecting is fun! People drop things all the time. Painted rocks left in the wilderness is not litter. Remember the guy that sold pet rocks in the 70s? He made a million!

        • The pet rock was not painted, it came in a little biodegradable cardboard box with wood raffia & tied with a straw-like twine and had a funny little story book about training the rock… how to teach it to sit & stay, etc. The clever seller was a jr. advertising marketer and he and his wife picked up the rocks free at the beach. Every one of those rocks could easily be dropped back into a natural setting with no insult to its neighbors, i.e., ‘leaving no footprint’. His start-up costs (packaging, postage, record keeping, etc.) were a small fortune & the novelty was a short 1-shot wonder. Studied it in a business course.

      • Reminds me of CD’s “Green teeth” song. Found himself nearly biting it on his way west.

  8. The treasure isn’t in a dangerous place. Could that statement eliminate entire states?

      • Hi Seeker, Mr. Fenn has said that he wanted families searching for the chest. He said he wanted to get kids out into nature. He didn’t want to put anyone in danger. How many family friendly Grizzly bears are there?

        • James… really? is it Mr. Forrest Fenn’s fault that the school system has failed to produce anyone with the required reading and comprehension skills to crack the poem?

          i think not.

          • Bob,
            What point would Forrest Fenn be making by pointing out how sorry the public school system is when his Dad was a teacher? I am particularly fond of our public school system where I live.

            The physical chest is physically out there. Have faith in that and your public school system.

        • James,

          Just griz?
          I mean, rattlers, black bears, cats, spiders, wolfs, coyotes, Elk, Bison are not the most friendless of beast yet millions visit there habitat every year… how about the slob hunters that shoot at anything that shacks a bush… lol, I might as well get all the ‘animals’ named.
          I’m not following the idea of a habitat of any certain animal would be considered dangerous vs. other places. Heck more folks die in bathrooms than outdoors in the mountains from animals.

    • James, no.
      what that statement does is give you a clue as to what the “treasure’ is.
      obviously all four search states have dangerous mountainous places.
      so the question becomes in this sentence… exactly what is the “treasure” of which the orator speaks?
      1. treasure- as in treasure chest, the bronze romanesque bronze box.
      2. treasure- the great outdoors.
      3. treasure- memories of your family outing to search.
      4. treasure- the items collectively Forrest has donated to the Buffalo Bill Center of the West.

      can only be number 4.

      i think outside the chest. lol

    • James- what if i said this?….
      the chest isnt in a dangerous place.
      contradicts the poem doesn’t it?
      not if the “chest” isnt what you think it is. lol

      Henny Youngman….”Take my wife! please!”

      oh, the thinks you can think.

  9. Here’s an “odd” thing that I have not seen anyone comment about.
    On the front and back cover of TTOTC book is a picture of Forrest Fenn’s School I.D. card
    Has anyone noticed that the picture of forrest is when he was about 8 years old and underneath that small photo appears to be an old purple 3 cent stamp? The I.D. card says he was 17 at the time. It is also transparent. Anyone have an idea about why this would appear on the inside cover?

    • Just a playful admonition to observe. Things are not as they seem. There are tiny bits of color in the sepia fonts of the book, I guess those ink changes don’t cost what the used to in modern printing methods. Are they meaningful? Donno.

    • There is an age theme and a color theme, maybe even a rainbow theme throughout the book. Maybe this tells us they are related.

    • GB-

      Perhaps FF views this as part of his identity and is again trying to draw attention to Philadelphia. I *think* it is the .03 cent stamp of William Penn. “The name Pennsylvania, which translates roughly as “Penn’s Woods”, was created by combining the Penn surname (in honor of William’s father, Admiral Sir William Penn) with the Latin word sylvania, meaning “forest land”.

      Happy hunting,


      • The third sense refers to hearing. Knowing that I believe the stamp refers to this…..

        (verse) 17 “They took Absalom, threw him into a big pit in the forest and piled up a large heap of rocks over him. Meanwhile, all the Israelites fled to their homes.”

        If you look carefully at my avatar you can make out a large pile of rocks, covered with several feet of snow. I wonder if anything is under it?…IMO

    • V…the beginning on a circle is wherever you choose it to be, it will also be the end. Find where F started his circle then begin…..Didn’t he say to begin it with WWWH? So that is the start of F circle. IMO

  10. An open letter to Forrest
    Dear Forrest, it has been one of my up most pleasures to duck in here from time to time (almost daily) and see what we Fennites have “cook’in on the stove.Your creation of The Thrill Of The Chase has added texture,perspective,color,and a patinated glow to the canvas of so many lives.

    The knowledge that has been gained by so many in so many varied fields in our quest is truly remarkable. I have learned so much from the snowball you started rolling down hill. History.Geology.Archeology.Paleontology.Anthropology and a whole bunch of other ologies.

    Therefore Forrest I am adding some letters to go behind your name.



  11. The double Omegas at the end of one of the books is not all about location of the TC, they may also be related to some of the items in the Chest. Just some research for you that have nothing to do. Greg Shafer

    • I think he just adds them at his Colophon as a Greek influencnce. Colophon was a name of an ancient city in Greece also.

    • You must get deep into how Forrest thinks. Read it and think deep……… very deep. But go High because he say’s its high but not all the way to the to the top.

  12. Double Omegas turned on their side could be like CC, turn one over and put them together, looks like an 8, or you might want to check the Omega Man, not the movie. Or they just mean the end of the hints to the clues. Only he knows for sure. Greg Shafer

    • ΩΩ = The End The End = Double Ended or maybe Repeat/Echo. The only book association I came up with was of ‘father sitting on a cloud & burning candles at both ends.’ (paraphrased)

      • OS2;

        I know that the double Omega = The end The end, but could it mean the Beginning of the end? With the book (TTOTC) with his poem and hints, and with TFTW, the map and hints a searcher can start the quest, and possible END it. – Had Forrest used Alpha/Omega, that might have been too easy to see, so he used the double omega???

        No Omega in Once Upon A While, and yet the revised OUAW with one added story has a single, smaller Omega – Maybe signifying that the END is close??? Who knows? I sure don’t. Just guessing – JDA

        • JDA,
          I addressed your suspicions in MW’s “String Theory” Featured Question, before the coming OUAW revised was announced.

          • dejoka;

            Did you get any kin d of response? If so, what was it? Can you provide a link? – Thanks – JDA

          • JDA,

            Nope. No response, except for someone who suggested I have made such an assertion before.

        • JDA,

          Don’t you think it’s a curious placement for the word “revised” on the cover of f’s new book? I look at the title’s first two words as being “Once revised” and I interpret that to mean: “A Time in the Past Revised” or “A New Beginning”.
          It fits nicely with the added single Omega at the end of the book.

          So there’s your “Alpha/Omega”. Pretty clever, huh?

          Plus, there is a revision, where he makes mention of a finality in the preface.

          So yes, I believe the end is afoot, along with a new beginning for a very focused searcher, but what do I know, maybe you are the one.

          Good Luck!


          • dejoks

            I read it quite differently. there is a red arrow pointing up to revised so it is actually –
            “Once Upon A While
            a REVISED third memoir by Forrest Fenn.”

            On the spine it is “Once Upon A While – revised.

            So, no, I do not find the placement curious – but I still do think that the end is close at hand – much closer than it was when TTOTC was first published – JMO – JDA

          • You are right JDA. If I’m the lucky one to find the treasure, I guess I better start looking at this puzzle like you and everyone else does.

            Thank you for setting me straight!

            Good Luck!

          • I like that star that was added on the cover.

            One star, on the right and on the same level as the author, Forrest Fenn.

          • Highlander,
            I once looked at the new Star as confirmation to my “Once revised” theory, but thanks to JDA, I no longer see it that way.

          • dejoka;

            Each and every one of us need to look at this riddle through our own eyes. You just might have the solution. 300,000 + of us have been wrong for almost nine years. Be yourself – JDA

          • Reply to:
            on January 9, 2019 at 5:53 pm said:

            I once looked at the new Star as confirmation to my “Once revised” theory, but thanks to JDA, I no longer see it that way.

            I have someone, who’s inohury, who helps me see things in different ways. He helped with the star. I trust his opinion.



        • 2 Omegas = 2 endings or 2 ends close together. This to me suggests either similar endings or where one ends another begins.
          JDA, I also have wondered if Omega/Omega could somehow relate to Alpha/Omega, so could the it be hinting to the beginning and the end?

          • One omega=one horse shoe=kick=POW
            look it up on the uspto web site. kick=POW

            when “skippy got blown up…..POW!”

            Both (IMO) refer to POW/MIA

          • The other half of the POW/MIA is the MIA part.
            I have said that hints and clues from Forrest are 3-5 degrees removed from what is said. For instance..A featured question to Forrest on Jenny’s web site in 2016 was entitled “Fly me to the moon”. Now you should know there is a song by that name(2nd degree). The singer that made it famous, Frank Sinatra (3) . Frank’s wife was MIA Farrow(4).

            And there is the other half of the POW/MIA connection! Four degrees!


          • For 1F –

            This shouldn’t be necessary to mention, but…

            Forrest didn’t title it, Jenny did.

            This is the third time this week that someone has found meaning in something she did as if she was Forrest.

            This isn’t rocket science.

            In order for Jenny K to offer a clue she would first have to know where the treasure is. If she did we wouldn’t yet be gathering at the house if Dal.


          • Mr. Lug–

            It is good to hear from you. I was afraid you were sick.

            Best regards;

            1F Billy

      • OS2 – I think that the first stanza is the first omega – the second omega is the first omega at the end – ( as I have gone alone in there )

        • OS2, first stanza, is that he got into his car alone, with his treasure, he knows where he is going with the riches, new and old. That is the first thing ff had to do on his trip to the hid. He then starts his trip and instructions at wwwh, then the canyon down. The poem is in order. Greg Shafer

          • Greg…and compare stanza one of the FFGM treasure hunt #1-

            twelve numbers you seek
            to reveal a place
            WHERE you can discover
            a hiding space

            as i have gone alone in there
            and with my treasures bold
            i can keep my secret WHERE
            and hint of riches new and old

            the poems are similar in that the first stanza gives you the WHERE and following stanza tells you how to get there.

            we now know that the WHERE for FFGM poem is Sky Meadow.

            and the WHERE for the “chest” poem is the Buffalo Bill Center of the West. IMO

            both places are geared towards children and families. we will see if all the other places to come for the remaining FFGM hunts are public places too and not wilderness. not far from a parking lot

            also, notice the guidelines and terms&conditions listed on the FFGM page….why wasn’t this done for the bronze romanesque box as well?

            time will tell. i think.

          • Bob-
            Forrest gave Jenny permission to use his name on the FFGM treasure hunt and his drawings on the medallion. That’s all…
            Please be aware that Forrest had/has NOTHING to do with the FFGM contest, medallions, poem, solution, hiding place….etc…nothing!
            Jenny made up everything…not Forrest…
            Jenny is a puzzle aficionado…
            Her blog is all about puzzles and treasure hunts…
            She is an expert at these kinds of things…it’s in her DNA..
            I think you are chasing the wrong rainbow when you look for FFGM to inform you about anything associated with TTOTC…

          • My comment only applys to the Chase and the tc, these new games are design to promote more interest in the chase, and to get people to visit locations ff has mention. These games pale in comparison to the Chase, both in cleverness and value. Good luck to everyone. Greg Shafer

          • Greg- I agree the FFGM hunts pale in comparison but, i see the FFGM as a blueprint for finding Forrest’s chest. after 9 years yeah, we all need guidance. a gentle nudge in the right direction.

            i think.

          • Green, I hear and see the frustration in many searchers comments. People need to remember that ff did not mean for the Chase of the tc to be easy. Not meant to be discovered for hundreds of years was his plan, and that seams to be working. ff thinks like very few others, and that is why he has done well for himself. Close is not good enough, one must be spot on. Greg Shafer

          • but but Dal….the poems are similar, wouldn’t you agree? in content and style.

            obviously Forrest influenced Jenny’s writing.

            i dont understand the wrong rainbow. i mean when Forrest wrote about following the poem to the end of his rainbow and the treasure, his rainbow is his alone and nobody else’s.

            i think.

          • Dal, I suggest you re-read what I wrote, I clearly stated that my comment only applied to the Chase and tc. Yes I understand that Jenny and other have created mini circuses to create attention for their site, what I call piggy backing off the Chase and ff. I thought OS2 comment on the first stanza was about the original poem and the Chase. I thought that was the purpose of this blog, but like most blogs on the subject, this has become a waste of time. I wont be back, and just keep kissing azz.

          • Greg! your writing suggests one who would rise for a challenge.

            oh well.
            see ya!
            (no, im not Dal.) lol

          • greg shafer-
            I suggest you re-read what Dal posted. I believe he is addressing “Bob”. I may be wrong, but I think he starts his post with Bob-
            I’m no genius, but I think he is directing his comment to BOB.
            Oh, you’re gone, who needs ya anyway….Bye-bye.
            (what rock do these one and done slugs crawl from under? man….)
            And you don’t need to end a post with your name, when it’s your handle…lol, – Charlie Ivey

      • Thanks all for your posts on the ΩΩ… Here’s what I think about the two omegas.

        FF’s original intention was that TTOTC (the book & poem) was sufficient to find the TC. The two omegas at the end of the book were probably not a hint about the location of the TC, but possibly his notation that 2 of the 3 parts of the chase were completed… A third omega would be reserved for the final leg, when he would announce the finding of the TC and write about the riches & the experience. (Things in threes’ seem to manifest a lot in this game.)

        But then, Fate blew a magic kiss to Fenn again, and the Chase exploded. Being a sharp marketer, and, to join in the fun, plans had to change. He quickly jumped on the train, grabbed the bananas…. & participated in Interviews, wrote SB’s, TFTW w/a map, etc. etc..

        That seems like a logical explanation to me…. but my logic tends to be a lot like Millay’s palace.

    • Thanks locolobo for sharing… yes, thank you Jenny for your “six questions” segment over the years. I’ve enjoyed them very much.. not only Forrest’s six questions every 4th of February, but also the many other “six questions “ you’ve asked us searchers and many others over the years… thank you…
      Have a great night Jenny …. until next time.. see ya my friend

    • I’m simply BRISTLING with anticipation! They’ve ever so altered and advanced the Chase.

      BRISTLING, I tell’z ya….

      …oh, look….there’s a squirrel on the fence….

  13. “Snowy days are a searcher’s enemy” ff

    – Amen.

    I bruised my wrist sliding (i.e. falling) down a hill and have two ‘frostnipped’ toes.
    Needless to say my effort was not worth the cold, although the Rockies are spectacular in the wintertime.

      • The forecast for late December said 2 to 4″ of snow but with the sunny weather I didn’t expect much to still be on the ground, but…
        There was a LOT, and more on the way.

        • randawg, the mountains are very deceiving when it comes to weather. Have you been using weatherstreet.com it has the snowfall accumulations by zip code. Looks pretty good on the map, just hard to tell sometimes. Glad your not hurt worse. Greg Shafer

    • I think that Dal has one to hide in his neck of the woods and they might do some armchair hunts with the others. It will be interesting to see how Dal sets up the clues for his. I expect it to be very different from how Jenny does hers.

  14. World Series of Fenn poker Tournament.
    When: Jan 26
    Where: Ballys, Las Vegas Nevada
    Time: 7:00pm
    Buy in : $60 with rebuys for the first 90 minutes

    Prizes in addition to the payouts:
    2019 FF coin #002
    WWWH Copper Piece #003
    1 set of all 3 books signed by FF and poker doodles
    more to be announced

    Please RSVP by emailing KPRO3@AOL.COM

  15. I think it has been over 8 1/2 years since FF hid the chest. We own farm land which has been allowed to grow natural for 10 years. The change has been phenomenal. Pasture is now forest and succession scrub. It is not the same place. Growth has occurred over all parts of the land. If a blindfolded person, who only saw the land 10 years ago, was dropped right in the middle of the land today, they would not be able to identify where they are.
    My point is….the chest must be in a spot which has very little change in the immediate area for FF to verify it is still there. Also, it must be close enough for him to view it from a distance without walking right up to it. Walking right up to it would jeopardize the chance that another person could be very near at the same time and possibly find it. I’m sure FF has thought about people following him to try and find the chest.
    I think the “forest growth” part should be considered by searchers. I believe the chest was hidden in an easement which has very little growth and is on a rock outcropping which can be viewed from a distance. Very little to no disturbance by natural occurrences.

    • Good point, Tarheel Searcher! Another aspect of forest growth to consider is that the hiding place is a place special to Forrest from some point in his life, possibly even his childhood. So what was once a field could now be a forest.

      I also strongly agree with you about a rock outcropping or formation of some sort as the actual hiding spot. It certainly would seem like the type of stable hiding place that could withstand the changing of the land.

    • Tarheel, ~ ‘My point is….the chest must be in a spot which has very little change in the immediate area for FF to verify it is still there.’

      While I get what you’re saying… I don’t think fenn had much of a choice of what the location looks like, IF we are to believe he only had one place in mind from his first thought, and was going to make it work.
      fenn has stated or implied he knows the chest is still there, but it’s only a guess that he could see it from a distance. I mean, we are told it’s hidden [ buried, out of site, under a rock, up on a cliff.. all other guessing aside ] how could he ‘see it from a distances’? That would imply its out in the open, right?

      He also warned us the the RM’s are still moving, and decades from now [ the 3009 comment ] it will have an impact on the clues. I would think that would include any normal growth of vegetation and/or new newly formed spread of vegetation, as well. So it seems reasonable to me ‘any place’ below the tree line elevation of an area is very pleasurable regardless of what is there now or not. I also have to keep in mind fenn’s comment of what he would ‘see’ and ‘smell’ if standing at the chest… While it’s hard to pin point a distance of smell for a human… my experience, you need to be fairly close. [ depending on different factors involved ; winds, the amount of vegetation, the type of vegetation etc. ] Examples; freshly cut grass has a strong scent, but not so much before a cut. Onion grass is very strong, and a couple of small patches [ 4″ round ] blocks the aroma of my flower bed [ over 20′ long ]. Apple trees have a stronger scent than pine trees etc etc. Yet, I could hardly detect those aromas from a distance of more than a couple hundred feet, in most situations.
      And not to start up this old conversation, but he has said he has not been back to the location after hiding the chest. So how he knows has been a mystery from day 1.

  16. I got lost fluttering about during the holidays. But, I’m back.

    Just wondering if anyone has come up with any good reason why FF mentioned the kid in school that gave him the jar of Olives. He said it was one of those long thin jars with a lid and it looked like the olives had been placed in there one at a time. I personally think this is a fairly big hint/whisper. I also think it is closely related to the hint/whisper about hats with holes in them. FF has introduced us to hats in numerous places and several he has talked about in his ATFs have holes in them. I find this interesting and wonder if anyone else has a good idea why he brings this up. I have a very good idea that I’m currently working on.


    • IMO-

      He is referring to the mount of olives and it’s historical significance.

      Best regards;

      1F Billy

    • Greetings Flutterby,

      I am a once or twice a month peruser of all things Fenn. I am a fan of all you Veteran searchers. These two subjects ( hat and olive jar)are a big deal to my search spot, and though they give no clue to a general search area IMHO , they do fit a long string of hints I have uncovered giving me an overall theme. So I would just like to say that the boy waving a jar of olives placed in a jar is an anology to an event long ago when another came in his fathers name ( pg.23 TTOTC) , without which he would of had nothing. Jars for olives are short and they are never placed one at a time however a long jar as mentioned by ff is better known as a vase or a vessel and CAN be used to KEEP olive branches. These olive branches which can be held in a Vessel and used to Annoint where once waved in the face of an individual who walked among men in a Vessel that was Anointed . A wave offering to praise this righteous man who wore no hat with holes on his head but did have a hat that put holes in his head. Well let me just ad that like the ‘First Grade’ story in TTOTC this Anointed one also had a friend named John who sought after him to verify who he was and wave olive branches at him as well.. Also later in this chapter IMHO when forrest says it ironic that John Charles mother calls him a son of a Bitch , he is hinting at John (the Baptist),who’s mother was a married women and no bitch but Mary who had a child and had no relations with Joseph who was to be her husband was considered a Bitch since Jesus’s father was not known. So in TTOTC that would mean She should not have called John that name ” a son who’s father is not known ” this was JC’s and Mary’s cross to bare and that was the irony of the statement IMHO. If so what is FF saying ? Decide for yourself . IndiSkywatcher

      . Big fan of all the big dogs in the chase. I’m the little guru carrying the big Saber.

    • Flutterby, I don’t read anything specific to the Christian religion into this… but one can hardly miss the waving arm of John Charles with the jar of olives as anything but a ‘Peace Branch’. The twist is that it is not an offer of peace but an act of hostility, a threat by an angry son of a bad mother.

      Was Ora Mae’s hostile opinion likewise born of some resentment?

      “Keep in mind that the temperament of the country was different in the 1930’s” …
      Is it too far a stretch to think the commentary is about some adult social conditions in the 1930’s guised in a child’s understanding? Unripe olives are green.

      I think First Grace is a marvelously clever & complex bit of writing. OS2

      • OS2 and IndiSkywatcher,

        I find it interesting that you both have offered biblical explaination for the jar of olives. The reason it is so funny to me is that I happen to have just taught my Sunday School class today about the very people you mention and it never once crossed my mind that FF’s story had anything to do with the bible or people mentioned in it.

        In fact, I had some thoughts on that jar of olives and I am further convinced after reading your thoughts, that my original ideas are likely to be correct. I think that what is important about John Charles waving that jar of olives is Forrest’s observation that they were in one of those long thin jars and seemed to have been placed there one at a time. I think this teaches us a concept that is important to know in order to understand what this poem is talking about. I don’t think I originally brought up Ora Mae. But, I have no doubt what her role is in teaching us. She was a cleaning lady. I think that is mostly what we need to know about her. That, and the hint in her name. While she had other jobs, her main job was cleaning. I don’t think she disliked FF’s father. She just felt inferior to his ability to interact with so many people and do so many things while her main focus was cleaning. I understand why FF told us this story about Ora Mae.

  17. I may have miscounted, but on the “Name the kitty” thread, it is amazing how many “Lurkers” have emerged. I counted 140 + names. Many “Usuals”, but a LOT of new names. YEA! love to see that there are lots of folks out there that do not usually post – 🙂 – JDA

    • Yeah JDA, it’s good to see so many responding… there are many names to choose from, I’m glad I’m not a judge…lol
      Have a great day… see ya my friend

      • Yep, I kinda like Colleen’s “snickers”
        Or Loco’s idea “Goofy” but needs to add~ Goofy old Gal

      • Also there were a lot of middle of the night inspirations on that thread judging by the post times.

        • I also like many of the ideas of names for Kitty. I’m going to change one of my suggestions. Has anyone else figured out what “Kitty” is pointing to in Too Far To Walk? I did. IMO If FF himself is choosing names for her, I know which one he would choose from TFTW (IMO), but I’m not sure who this committe of judges is. Does anyone know?

    • Hi JDA
      Do you have a hot spot for spring brake up yet? How much snow out your way? Man it’s going to be a long winter! We have about 7 inches here in mich. your in Idhao right .

      • Yes, I have a hot spot, but for now, it is pretty cold. Yes, I am from Idaho. not deep snow, but more frequent 1-3″ snow storms. About 5 -6 ” right now, but melting. – Stay warm – JDA

    • Yeah. All you regular posters are more famous than most of the YouTube folks, and you didn’t even know it!

      I mean, there’s you, Seeker…. umm. Ken. Idle something. Another person with aardvark in the name.

      Bona fide celebrities!

      • To continue celebrities

        Lugnuts, Zapod, JDA, Sparrow, CharlieM, pdenver, jdiggens, focused, SherifBilly

        I’m sure I missed someone

        • Thanks CharlieM, I smiled just to see that I made the list… 🙂
          Heck, if I stay busy, in about 9 more years I should pull ahead of jdiggins…. JDA, your safe for a long while…..

        • I didn’t think about rankings, just random. Sikeston you started this, what do you think?

          I feel guilty about putting me up there. Celebrity? Nope! But it was fun.

      • Skieston,

        LOL I didn’t come in fourth of the most yappers without trying… Join in, I’d like to hear what ya got to say.

        • The current contest could be a hint to think about something that is now extinct or doesn’t exist anymore.

          • Though until the contest ends the blog is going to be a stream of entries on an epic scale

          • Half moon and Mars conjunction tonight! Another way to pass the winter is to enjoy the view we all can share (if in the same hemisphere).

          • Idle Dreamer,
            I saw the current contest as a hint the moment it was announced. But in my opinion, it isnt suggesting something extinct. It ties in perfectly with a couple of scrapbook pages which are now part of TFTW. Fits my current solve perfectly. All my opinion of course. -Flutterby

          • I really like those scrapbook pages in TFTW. I have spend a few hours of my life devoted to solving an oddity I noticed in them. I am not really sure I ever got anywhere with that. I am also a little surprised I didn’t see that pointer until you mentioned it.

          • no prob Bob (I oddly find saying that deeply satisfying, like watching people eat a candy bar in front of you for years and finally getting to try one).

            On a sad note, I couldn’t see the moon…

          • pd;

            How long, and under what conditions would it take to convert a skull of bone into a skull of stone (petrified)?

            Might this be a hint as to where to look? In what era did “Kitty” exist? Is this – geologically – the strata that we need to be looking in? What geological (geographical) conditions are necessary to create fossils of any kind. Man existed at the same time as saber toothed tigers didn’t he? Is this important?

            Lots of questions – few answers – JDA

          • Hello JDA. I believe there are different ways to look at this, should it truly have had a hint or two. While looking at the photo, we see a petrified specimen of the saber-toothed tiger. Could it point to Specimen Ridge? Also, while looking at the photo, one can see the specimen in on a wood table. Perhaps it could point to Petrified Forest in Yellowstone, which I believe in the same general area as Specimen Ridge. During the same time period, it could point to Mammoth Hot Springs. During the Ice Age, one could look into Glacier, too. There are other thoughts, but I think I might be holding on to it/them because I’m not sure if I’m going in the wrong direction with it and don’t wish to steer anyone along the same path.

          • The saber tooth tiger could be found world wide and can be found in the tar pits near Los Angeles as well as other critters. I don’t think there is any connection to the Chase with the tigers. Actually the saber tooth is a cat and not a tiger. So name the kitty is aptly applied.

          • Hi pd;

            Like I said – so many questions. You offered a few possible answers that I certainly had not thought about. Have a peaceful and quick winter – JDA

          • By the way the saber tooth was around the last part of the ice age about 10,000 years ago plenty of time to become fossilized. For me by the looks of the scull it doesn’t appear to me that it wasn’t fossilized, too much detail in the skull.

            Remains can be found intact to the point that DNA can be distracted, so no turning to stone.

            Just Say’n

          • Hope you are well Pdenver,

            I could see it doing that but not literally, as in I don’t see where the contest is hinting at if that is the case. Though the number 6 does come to mind.

          • Hello CharlieM. In TTOTC, “My War For Me,” page 86, one can find a photo of a tiger skin. I believe this critter was a big concern when Mr. Fenn was in the jungle. There’s also mention of a different cat, the cougar, while he was hunting. This can be found in TFTW book, in chapter, “I Wish I Hadn’t,” beginning on page ninety-nine.

          • pdenver,

            I’d think trying to nail down where kitty came from or even a hint would be much harder to nail down. There’s a lot of kitties roaming around those mountains. Isn’t that a rabbit hole that can go many places even if one tries to apply that to F?

            Just Say’n

          • Hello CharlieM. It’s very possible is hadn’t changed, although I’m curious as to why the photo seems to show a sheen to it.

            Hello Idle Dreamer. I’m doing okay, thank you. I believe it’s curious as to what Mr. Fenn had to say about his unnamed feline. Butterfly did a post which made me think twice. Should the cat have crossed any of our paths, what would have happened? Of course there’s a thought of the “intersection” he’s spoken about. With an intersection, lines are crossed, but I could be going in the wrong direction with this. I think the number I see in the photo is two, being the two predominant teeth.

          • Hello CharlieM. Certainly would be hard to tell where this specimen was originally located. I wonder if Mr. Fenn knows.

          • Hello CharlieM. There’s one more mention of cats in the Chase. In TTOTC, chapter “Bessie And Me,” he mentions the six cats sitting there like wet socks (we’ve heard about socks and shoes in other chapters) on a clothesline, which in the book he has it spelled “clothes line”. Each cat got five squirts of milk and felt blessed.

          • Should clarify my last comment. There’s mention of socks and shoes, or lack thereof in the book, not that all are mentioned are hung on a clothesline.

          • Yep, that is it pdenver, and if I remember correctly there are 6 kids holding the rope as well.

        • Perhaps just:

          There maybe new riches in the old.

          What is it that soon shows up at a carcass?

          A Hint: “I don’t know how old she is but I do know she likes to eat disagreeables
          and malcontents. f”

          Hint 2: Coroners use them to help identify the amount of days as a carcass.

          He has many hints that could have been missed!

          Lol. IMO .

          • Just inside the entrance to the Denver Museum of Nature and Science is a replica of a sabre toothed cat, jaws wide open for donations of coins and bills. When the donation is made, the cat gives out a roar! Kids love it…it has been there a long time.

          • Alsetenash,
            Has anyone wondered why she eats disagreeables and not just anyone that crosses her path? If you do, then you are working on the same solve I am. IMO.

        • “How funny it’ll seem to come out among the people that walk with their heads downwards! The antipathies, I think—”

          When a riddle becomes intractible, it sometimes helps to turn it on its head, like a smile without a cat.

      • For me, the biggest shot-in-the-arm for new mental stimulation on the Chase was Cynthia’s shared revelation that the “home of Brown” is apparently not associated with a human structure. Nearly all of my hoB’s were man-made or ruins of man-made. The naysayers may naysay, but I don’t see any reason for Cynthia to intentionally muddy the waters (other than being competitive and maliciously misleading the opposition, which I have decided not to believe). She’s been just about as consistently upfront & open on this blog as dal, IMHO. I need to puzzle something out of this by Summer, but for the time being I’m still stuck in a mud puddle.

        • blex- you sound a lot like me.
          If ff didn’t say it, I have a hard time believing it.
          It seems to me that f likes to mess with those who seek inside information. I know I would.
          just saying

          • Emment,
            Do you believe fenn stated “don’t mess with my poem”?
            Just curious…
            Don’t get me wrong, I take it all with a grain of salt too. Because we have seen many comments from searcher who said one thing, and when the info was produced is said something different.
            Personally, the ‘idea’ that none of the clues reference would be involved with a structure and/or man-made seems pretty reasonable if fenn was thinking down the road 1000 year plus.

            However, we do have the one Q&A that said [paraphrasing] ~ Most of the clue’s references existed when fenn was a kid. Does that mean something physical [landscape or man designed]? Or does it mean a type of direction or instruction for a clue?

        • I don’t question Cynthia’s integrity. But keep in mind this is based on a verbal exchange that she had with him in public (Collected Works, I believe), with the din of customers and commerce surrounding them. It wasn’t a quiet, direct conversation in his home, nor an email exchange with her and his words in print. She freely admits that he may have misunderstood her and that she may have misunderstood him. An abundance of parlor games and court trials have occurred based on this phenomenon.

          f has had many opportunities to confirm and clarify this since her claim, but he has not, although it’s been a source of confusion of which he is aware.

          Sources of clues and hints, in order of value, IMO:

          1. Poem
          2. TTOTC
          3. Other writings and videos by/of f
          4. Things found stuck to the bottom of your shoe
          5. Radio signals from outer space
          6. Punxsutawney Phil
          7. Self-indulgent fenn treasure related youtube video hosts (so much puke being spewed there by folks who, by definition, don’t know)
          8. Things people say f told them
          9. Things people say other people told them f told them

          I think success can be had by sticking to just the first two. And being a reasonable person. And showing some imagination. And knowing the geography of the Rocky Mountains. And simplifying.

          • aardvarkbark,
            I agree with what you wrote. I would question why Cynthia even brought this up when she even admits of a very possible misunderstanding between them. What was the purpose of her even putting this on this site and in her book. Hmmm…sounds fishy don’t you think.

            You’re right, this an enormous source of confusion and Fenn has not said a word about it. So I am guessing that it’s not a fact and that there are human structures involved in the chase.

            Why doesn’t Fenn just come out and clear this up? He wouldn’t want to come out and say that there are or aren’t any human structures, that would be giving too much of a clue. Besides, I think he enjoys seeing all the confusion between searchers going on, and laughing as the logs get turned over. lol

            So to rely on hearsay, I’d say one would be foolish to rule out this not being a human structure involved in the chase. Again, you are right on.

          • ManOwar,

            Outpacker magazine [ I think was the name ] and a couple other second hand comments, stated, fenn told them WWH is the first clue, only some didn’t want to believe these sources. Years of debates rambled all over the blogs on this topic… until Loco discovered a “NewZealand” interview with Audio that confirmed BIWWWH is the first clue. Yet, apparently many, if not all, never heard of this interview… and fenn never confirmed the magazine article as correct or not.

            In a Q&A fenn stated; **Although I’m not ready to say the chest is not in water…*** Years of debates were talked about a water grave for the trove… until he finally did say, the chest is not under water.

            Even now, we debated the idea of having to go into a canyon or not… years after the comment was made {paraphrasing} ~ I can tell you an 80 yr old is not going down and up a canyon… {People/celebrities interview, no audio}

            Or the comment: { paraphrasing } no one should take anything of a reservation. {T&E radio interview} But some have searched these locations.

            Folks hang on to the thought that a ‘flashlight and a sandwich’ is still a clue, and have for years, even after fenn stated they are not.

            You stated; “What was the purpose of her even putting this on this site and in her book. Hmmm…sounds fishy don’t you think.”

            I doubt there is anything ‘fishy’ going on, but more to the idea that, some don’t like the thought of it possibly being true, and have it ruin their solution[s]. And if we are going to wait for fenn to confirm everything… well, I’m reminded of the cartoon of the skeleton sitting at the computer 107 years later.

          • Seeker,
            You’re right, Fenn is not going to confirm or deny, I don’t care if he does or not. Just because some of the hearsay turned out to be true doesn’t confirm that this story (Cynthia’s) is correct. It just may be a total understanding. That’s all I am saying, but what was her purpose of divulging what she thought Forrest understood or what she did. Was she just trying to help out other searchers? Or maybe, without knowing, she has or perhaps have lead them down a deep rabbit hole.

            We don’t know for sure unless Forrest himself says if it was a misunderstanding or not. So I myself choose to not believe there are no human structures in this chase.

            If some of the places didn’t exit when he was a kid then how did they get here now? Hmmm.

          • Hello ManOwar. One possibility where places didn’t exist when he was a kid but do now may have to do with geological changes, for instance, the earthquake in West Yellowstone and the changes of the river which created the lake.

            This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

          • You bring up one good argument…
            “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did…”
            While the word places is used, The other part of that Q&A say; “The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f”
            Does that not imply the movement of the Range, parts of the range of the RM’s is what will be impacted and / or changed?
            Not unlike the Madison River now has an added lake {Earth Quake lake} that wasn’t around when fenn was a ‘kid’.
            This is really the only comment I know of that give us the idea of what does change and will have an affect… “down the road”
            Another part of that Answer states; “I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia.”
            This seem to clarify the idea of “geography” or landscape vs. man made or structures… because of the ~”movement” and “associated physical changes”~ OF the *RM’s*?

            I get being cautious of second hand information… however, a pattern start to emerge when many of the direct fenn comments are somewhat the same as second hand info.
            Such as the clues didn’t not exist when he was a kid because, he had not created the clues for their references. This seems to say; the clues are the only thing associated with the chest, and by that association, the treasure is not associated with a structure… and… it’s clues to find it.

            Just a friendly debate, ManOwar. But at some point I think we really need to take a long look at how these ATF’s and yes second hand info can relate and be relatively true in the hopes our guessing is at least usable.

          • Seeker,
            “The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.f”
            Does that not imply the movement of the Range, parts of the range of the RM’s is what will be impacted and / or changed?

            Perhaps it does imply that or perhaps it implies that all of New Mexico will be covered with roads and buildings, as I believe Forrest has mentioned. Maybe he meant that the geography (the study of the physical features of the earth and its atmosphere, and of human activity as it affects and is affected by these, including the distribution of populations and resources, land use, and industries.) meaning that man made things will take over the Rocky Mountains in a thousand or ten thousand years. He doesn’t seem to take to these changes.

            When he says places it could refer to either natural or manmade, so I wouldn’t count out either one. Therefore, we are back to what if. Ha, ha.

          • pdenver, yes, it could be a natural place he is referring to but somehow I think (and just an hunch) that places are both natural and manmade. Each clue is a place, there are then nine places that he is referring to. How likely is it that all of them are natural? JMO.

        • Blex-
          Where did Cynthia reveal that HOB was not associated with a human structure ?
          Thanks, Bob#302

        • Sorry, Blex, I mistakenly replied to aarvarkbark instead of you.
          Looking for Cynthia’s revelation’s location.
          Thanks, Bob#302

        • Bob #302, this comes from a passage in a book that Cynthia has written, so it’s not something that came directly from Forrest. In a nutshell, Cynthia recounted a conversation she had with Forrest in which she mentioned that she was using a cabin as her “home of Brown” and another searcher was using the ruins of an Indian Pueblo. According to Cynthia, Forrest responded with something along the lines on “Didn’t I say ‘not associated with human structures’?” So that’s where all this is coming from.

          Emmett1010 & Aardvarkbark are both making good points too on this topic. It’s nothing that Forrest specifically addressed himself as of yet, so I guess you can take it or leave it. I guess I have at least been considering it as possible truth, but if I happen to find a man-made home of Brown in an area that fits the rest of the poem, I’m not going to outright discount it because of Cynthia’s book. I do like the challenge of thinking of home of Brown as not man-made and seeing where it takes me; it at least seems like a fresh perspective.

          • Blex,

            Folks like to think fenn is hinting/giving clues with something in his SB’s, and yes, even in the contests. I don’t believe he is handing out clues or hints but I do think he adds suggestive thoughts in many things he states.

            With the chatter/debate as of late [ the hoB and a structure not associated etc. that has been going on for a while] I have been pondering if fenn may have chosen Little Kitty as a suggestion to our conversations and debates. {depending on when Da’l received the contest info}
            “I don’t know how old she is but I do know she likes to eat disagreeables
            and malcontents. f”
            LOL… could this be fenn’s way of saying, without actually saying it, that; the information relayed is accurate? And folks who disagree should be fed to his Little Kitty…

            Just something to ponder and wonder about.

          • Seeker, I wouldn’t be surprised if that was a subtle nudge for all of us from Forrest. Then again, he may just be asking us to be nice and stay positive in general too. Certainly another thing to ponder on!

    • I love that bumper sticker that says “My karma ran over your dogma.”
      In addition, I should say something about the chase. The word “chase” gets a
      lot of capitalization in this treasure hunt, and I don’t think that this capitalization
      is deserved. In the poem, I believe that “Brown” is correctly capitalized.

  18. Has anyone ever heard of a place called the Pioneer Club in Leadville Colorado?
    Seems like it might be a very interesting lead…

  19. Since I poked my head out from lurking yesterday, and Seeker asked what I had to say, I’ll share a couple of thoughts I have.

    First, I should tell you that I opened an escape room business just north of Detroit as sort of an indirect result of this treasure hunt. I figured I would be proactive and take a bit of Forrest’s business advice.

    Having said that, I’ve really gained a unique insight in how people deal with puzzles. A big mistake I made early on was assuming people would “get” certain clues based on the available data. Generally speaking, the more clever you try to be in puzzle design, the further away you get from people understanding what the heck is going on.

    An example of this is the early “in the mountains north of Santa Fe” hint. Many people believe since he didn’t include the map with 4 states at the beginning, that means it must really be in New Mexico, and he just wanted to expand the search area.

    But the opposite is more likely true: he realized he was being too cheeky and clever by just saying “somewhere in the mountains…” assuming people would have an “aha” moment and figure out it could be ANY of the many mountains extending hundreds of miles north. So he clarified by issuing the map we all now know. If he wouldn’t have done that, it truly might have been 100 years before people began making the connection.

    Which actually makes a case for why it’s NOT in New Mexico. Just sayin’

    Another insight based off of the above observation is the theory that Forrest does, in fact, want it found in his lifetime. Despite what he says, he wouldn’t have have refined the “north of Santa Fe” hint if he was completely ambilivant about a correct solution. Which probably means it’s quite probable it could be found within a few years or sooner.

    Not sure if this is a fresh perspective, but that’s what I got.

    Back to lurking.

    • Sikeston;

      Thanks for the post. Hope you continue to post, I enjoyed reading what you had to say – JDA

  20. There will be a page for this to come, but I just wanted to put this out there…
    Fennboree 2019 will be held at Hyde Memorial State Park in Santa Fe July 5-7, 2019.

    Friday night will be a campfire and hot dog roast at site # 47, Saturday there will be a potluck gathering at group shelter 2 with fun, friends food and games. If you are interested in attending you will need to reserve a camp/rv site on the HYDE MEMORIAL STATE PARK website  https://newmexicostateparks.reserveamerica.com,

    Or, if you prefer, you can stay in a hotel in Santa Fe. Bring your favorite dish of food or snacks, and/or your favorite drinks for the Saturday potluck.

    This year, jdiggins will be your host!

    More details forthcoming….

    • Wish that we could make it, but we have a grandchild due 07/04/2019. You all have fun. Perhaps we can make it in 2020.


      Windy City

  21. seeker- i find it hard to believe someone, learned as you, couldn’t spell emmett correctly, I assume that slight was intentional, and petty.

    regardless: if you were designing a poem, and you started with a fixed spot to hide a treasure in the vast wilderness of the rocky mountains how would you begin it.

    Most of us would look at a map and search for a landmark that would be recognizable and a reasonable distance from the target, and provide clues/hints to bring us to the treasure.

    If this premise is even remotely accurate, would you select a HOB, that was a fish stream, a bat cave, grizzly den, pelican roost, beaver hut, eagle nest, brown rocks, or some other natural occurring Brown phenomenon. How would a searcher ever confirm this to be correct.

    So continue to believe second hand interpretations of what f actually said, and meant. logic does not support Capital Brown being natural.

    • Emmett1010;

      You say: “So continue to believe second hand interpretations of what f actually said, and meant. logic does not support Capital Brown being natural.”

      Using YOUR logic, how can ANYTHING in the poem be natural? Dow about WWWH – isn’t that supposed to be natural? Or a canyon down, or a meek place, or heavy loads or water high? Are these all – not-natural things. IF they are natural, you say that logic will not support them being natural. Sorry, your logic is flawed. If logic will not support Capital Brown being natural, logic will not support any of the clues from being natural.

      You might want to reevaluate your logic – JMO – JDA

    • I don’t think a searcher will ever receive confirmation about what home of Brown
      means until the TC is found. But if trial and error (in solving the poem) puts someone on what appears to be a good path toward the TC, then a good amount of confidence may accompany that searcher.

  22. EMMETT ~ seeker- i find it hard to believe someone, learned as you, couldn’t spell emmett correctly, I assume that slight was intentional, and petty.

    Really Bud? A simple key stroke typo [ N mistakenly type for a T ] and you automatically think it was intentionally meant as something derogatory?
    Come on down off your pedestal… apparently the thin air has an negative affect on you.

    You explained your thoughts for the Capital B, The reasons for using a map if designing a poem / clues… which fenn didn’t used. But never answers the question posed; Do you believe fenn stated “don’t mess with my poem”? You skipped right over that. No big deal.. I was only curious if you thought this second hand piece of information stood equal to Cynthia’s recalling of a conversation, the same as Dal’s, recalling of a conversation with fenn saying; Don’t mess with my poem.

    • seeker-
      No I don’t think these 2 pieces of second hand information stand equal. I don’t think messing with my poem is definable. I believe Dal questioned f on why halt was used as it didn’t rhyme with walk, whereas, HOB is not a structure, is a specific definable incontestable game changing statement.
      just the way I see it.

      • That is if you are reading the poem and interpreting the solve correctly. And again, any and most everything can be considered a “structure”.
        I disagree with the thought that hoB is not natural. It very well could be. The landscape from 30,000 feet may look to f like certain things in which he put into the chase. He did block out Philly. Why come up with that story? It all depends on how you see the solve, solve that line, and what you come up with. If solving that line you came away with say, frog, and the landscape in your search area looked like a frog, that may be a tell. May have nothing to do with Brown as a color or a name, or whatever. It’s such a “general” line in the poem, to general to pinpoint on one thing, IMO.
        I think you are mixing in how “you” would design a poem/map, and not thinking on how f would.
        “if you were designing a poem, and you started with a fixed spot to hide a treasure in the vast wilderness of the rocky mountains how would you begin it. Most of us would look at a map and search for a landmark that would be recognizable and a reasonable distance from the target, and provide clues/hints to bring us to the treasure”
        I don’t see that at all. I think most would start with coordinates. Plus, he already had the place in his head, didn’t need a map. He didn’t even know how many clues until he was done. Sorry, don’t see your logic working here.

        • Home of Brown could be the home of the Grizzly. Known as the Brown Bear. So put in below it, not above it. Thats why the treasure is not in a dangerous place! Because its below the area of the grizzlies! The Browns. That could be the tip end of the Wind River Mountains.
          One of my search areas. Haha just maybe.? Just one of my many ideas!

      • Emmett,

        I don’t believe the conversation was ‘defining’ only to hoB. fenn simply repeated what he has stated long ago… a structure is not associated with the treasure. The implied ‘idea’ is not just about a searchers thought of a clue [ in this case their hoB reference ] but the clues in the poem.
        However, this unfolds, the one thing I keep in mind is; days after chatting with some folks about WWH, fenn felt the need to explain that there was a conversation and wanted to level the playing field. While in this case [ Cythia’s recalling of a conversation ] Nothing new was added… just simply repeated; the treasure is not associated with a structure.
        Yet, Logically, ‘the clues’ are associated with the treasures, it’s the only reason the clues were created in the first place.

      • emmett1010,

        If I may interject, you said, ” I don’t think messing with my poem is definable.” If I said, don’t mess with my truck, you wouldn’t mess with my truck. “Don’t mess with my poem” carries the same weight as my example, Don’t mess with it.

        Defined of *don’t mess with my poem*, is don’t change the words, the stanzas, switch sentences around and the structure of the poem. I personally think the statement all on its own is pretty clear.

        I love all the speculations that folks say in regards to each clue and disregards to what F said in the past or information passed on to Dal, Cynthia, Jenny, etc. to us searchers. It’s no wonder its taking so long to find the tc. Prominent folks like Dal, Cynthia or Jenny aren’t going to mislead folks, there is nothing to be gained by them in doing so.

        Everything in the poem is straight forward and in plain English [paraphrased] and yet folks want to twist, turn inside out and come up with different meanings within the poem. To me that creates havoc, unnecessary rabbit holes and a lot of missed dart throws. It’s more or less desperation to find the correct place where the tc is at.

        I may very well be wrong, but I’ll hang onto the cards dealt. Proof is the only thing that matters. Even with proof, some folks will say that it can’t be, because the tc is not where they thought it was.

        So you see emmett, we all may be missing the boat, but there’s no harm in listening to different points of view. The hoB at least for me is a natural place based on a reliable person as Cynthia, even before her post came out hoB is a natural place, at least for me.

        I feel what is being overused is imagination, just because of what F put on a brass bell. One should however, use some imagination to learn wwwh and after that should be based on facts, that is right there on a good map, ie. the big picture.

        Now, just ranting on with what I think. Besides the *name of kitty thing* seems to be the topic, and not much else is being discussed. Sooo…

        Just Say’n

  23. Hi everybody has anybody found ff little kitty yet ,gives a hole new meaning about brave and in the WOOD a^Ye

  24. My 2nd chase tools iPhone app is out and in the wild, also I was able to lower the unlock price on the 1st app.

    The best way to understand the new app is to watch the video of a practical example at the link.

    Here is the blurb for it though:

    If you have lots of ideas to apply to the search, but need a way to find and more importantly then narrow down the type/class and name of geographical features that would correspond to your idea exactly and quickly. This app will make quick work of finding those features, and only those features that exactly match your ideas to the area and type that exist. And importantly do this with confidence that you didn’t miss anything. This app was built to do that with ease because I needed it desperately and now use this and my other X tools app every day.


    • Writis,

      Others have done programing to create apps, databases and software in an effort to find the chest. So far, none have been helpful. Does this app have an ability to *reason* with the poem, or to identify wwwh, the hoB or what or where its no place for the meek with exactness related in the poem? I don’t see how that app can be helpful other than finding places named Brown. Heck the persons that create apps could be completely wrong as well.

      I’ll rely on my brain to reason with the clues in the poem, that is what a computer can’t do. But hey, thanks anyway.

      Just Say’n

      Just Say’n

      • think of the apps as tools, like paper, pencil or even a map as a tool. Use them as one should use tools. That is all, not as a replacement for someone’s brain, but exactly like how one would use a pencil in the search, if you had watched the video, the practical example does not use “Brown” as you suggest can only be done with “apps” like this, if one does not see how that example applies.. then they are leaving endless stones unturned.

        I am about as sharp as a marble, but I am smart enough to know that I do not think like ff, and that I am not thinking the right thoughts. I believe every searcher will at some point come to this realization, obviously, it is only a matter of time for each one.

        The person who does find the TC will use an organized and exhaustive approach with numerous themes, That person will use these apps or ones like them, (including any future apps), because the data is overwhelming, and an exhaustive approach needs… well tools. I am writing the apps for myself… because I have come to that realization quite quickly, not as a replacement for my brain, but to use like I am using a pencil and paper in the search.

  25. In response to emmett1010, CharlieM wrote upthread: “I love all the speculations that folks say in regards to each clue and disregards to what F said in the past or information passed on to Dal, Cynthia, Jenny, etc. to us searchers. It’s no wonder its taking so long to find the tc.”

    Then later > “Everything in the poem is straight forward and in plain English [paraphrased] and yet folks want to twist, turn inside out and come up with different meanings within the poem”.

    And then CharlieM throws in the punchline > “I feel what is being overused is imagination…”

    Charlie … in my opinion you ignore imagination, and you won’t find the chest. Like other searchers, you seem to take a literal view, both of the poem and of everything FF says.

    If a literal interpretation is what’s needed, the chest would have been found a long time ago. HOB as a fish … (haha), yet many searchers still cling to this totally unimaginative meaning.

    Imagination generates “speculation”. And FF’s comments are not always “straight forward”. So when searchers “want to twist, turn inside out and come up with different meanings within the poem”, they are using their imaginations to come up with speculative theories. Their results may be wrong but at least they’re not going down the road of literalness that’s been a complete failure over many years.

    I have seen very few chest location theories that required much imagination. Mostly, we’re in an era of “copy my literal thinking approach since I am a ‘celebrity’ searcher”. This conformity to presumably safe ideas presented in blogs and on YouTube, to me, explains almost 100 percent of the resultant searcher failure.

    Almost anyone can take a literal viewpoint. But it’s going to take someone with a lot more brain power, and by extension, a lot more imagination to solve this poem than most literal searchers wish to acknowledge.

    And the winning ideas are not going to be splattered all over the blogs or on YouTube.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • Nice, Ken (inTexas). I was going to add something but then I read your second to last paragraph. If only I could understand what you said. 🙂

      • Hi Alsetenash. Let me see if I can clarify that one paragraph (in two paragraphs :)).

        Too many searchers want an easily deciphered solution to the poem, little or no thinking required. But that hasn’t worked. Yet searchers keep repeating the same trite ideas, over and over and over.

        Try to look at the poem in a new or different way; what hasn’t been said about it? Could some of FF’s verbal comments be interpreted in less conventional ways? Yeah, it’s hard. But imagination can help. Go outside the bounds of conventional searcher thinking. Be less rigid, less conforming, more flexible and open to creative solutions.

        Ken (in Texas)

          • That kind of magic could possibly be found before time runs out. I’ve noticed there are lll coins listed for sale on a popular website 212, 666, 698. Clues? Possibly.


      • I kinda agree with Ken {TX} on the lack of imagination…
        The thing is, when does imagination really kick in?
        I have been leaning towards Goofy’s premise [ and others ] that it all about being on site. The idea seems to relate to fenn’s comment ~ Yes, in theory, but not in practice… and … folks seem to be stumped at the 3rd and 4th clues. I think, solving these and the other clues may need to be done only in the field, because we need to see what fenn seen in his mind while writing the poem… imo… this is where imagination kicks into high gear.

        • Seeker, you wrote…”the thing is when does imagination really kick in?”

          from the very beginning in my opinion for these reasons…

          1. no multi millionaires leave treasure lying around to be found by strangers.

          2. this treasure hunt uses a poem for directions.

          3. many normal, logical thinking persons have discounted this treasure hunt as a hoax.

          4. gold fever impairs judgement.

          then, imagination becomes paramount. this treasure hunt will defy logic and reason.

          i think.

        • Seeker & Ken (in Texas)

          Yes I agree, imagination is a factor that is needed to help in solving the poem. To me it starts at clue #1 wwwh. The reason I say this is you have to use your imagination to figure why Forrest chose this piticular one. Now this is only the case if your only using the poem, and good map to solve this clue. In my case I found, what I believe, is the answer to “why” and the use of the “word that is key” in the TTOTC book to help with it’s location. To me, after that, proper research will help with “most” of the clue solves. There are possibly three clues where you might need to be, as you say Seeker, in the field, Then when you see the answers to those three you still have to use your imagination to understand that they are what Forrest is referring to as the answers. Those three are the last three of the poem, as I see it (heavy loads, waterhigh, blaze).
          Of course this is just food for thought, unless you are in my search area, which a few searchers have been, and were lucky to figure the first couple of clues but went by the rest.

          Good luck if your searching in the Spring time, as I will be out there then.

          • Hi Bur;

            I agree with you. Who knows, we just might cross paths out there – I will look for you come spring – JDA

          • Hey JDA,
            Yes it’s been almost 3 years and a lot of research done (mostly confirmation) since I’ve been out to the Rockies. So I’m happy to be putting my boots on the ground once again.

            Good luck JDA come Spring.

        • Seeker- “folks seem to be stumped at the 3rd and 4th clues. I think, solving these and the other clues may need to be done only in the field, because we need to see what fenn seen in his mind while writing the poem”.
          100% agree.

          Ken- Also agree.

          Straight forward may not be as straight as thought. Imagination, and the “what ifs” will play a role.

          I like his comment about you cannot solve this by trying to solve later clues. Why not? If clues could be solved, then the only reason would be that you need a prior clue to solve. That’s fine, but how about the first clue then?

          Imagination has to play some sort of role. Whether it be in solving the poem or BotG. I agree with Seeker on the 3rd and 4th clue. And, with f saying possibly 4 clues have been solved, tells me the searcher was not entirely sure about it. Plus, f never mentioned the 3rd clue. That tells me that a picture was sent to f. Only thing it could be if even f wasn’t sure. That means BotG. And the 4th clue, even when there on site, is concealed some way. Enough where a searcher could snap a picture but not describe correctly what they see. Or cannot see. Only thing the 4th clue could be is “landscape”. IMO. That requires BotG. Any way of informing f about the 4th clue and f would know one way or another. Which means, from home, the 4th clue cannot be solved. Leads to, how can one be confident? Imagination, and a solve of the poem.

          If anybody has a different interpretation of f’s 4th clue comment, I’m all ears. As deaf as they may be, the only thing is a picture. So out there, somebody has a picture of the 4th clue. And doesn’t know it. Or didn’t know it then.:)

          • Poison: “If anybody has a different interpretation”

            some here would answer that question like they know the answer, I will tell you right away that I do not.

            if your interpretation is correct about “landscape” the chase will not be solved not only in a few years or a thousand years, it can never be solved.

            my reasoning looks like this: if a “local” who knew his/her area fairly well, and also happened to be a “local” to the TC, just by chance, and he/she walked by this landscape every day or month or even once a year, yet didn’t recognize this landscape as the “answer” to a clue. Then no searcher will ever recognize it.

            needless to say, there are “locals” who are also searchers in every single state and by now, every county of every state.

            my interpretation of the single 200′ footer is that he was a local, and simply went out on a lark. (and scarily, did not recognize ANY answers to clues, except for the general feel of the final resting spot, they didn’t even recognize the ‘blaze’)

            now one can say that they just are not thinking the right thoughts. Well once you get past a few 100 thousand searchers, after a decade or two, and there literally are a few 100 thousand “locals” at least active one time or another in every state, (like the 200’er) and none think the right thoughts… pretty soon landscapes all look…. distant.

            of course one can also say this about any method of interpretation. so we have that going for us 🙂

            I do know, that the people who believe that some how their logic is better than the 100 thousand searchers before them was. Well they are looking down a very long dark and well traveled path that only experience will break that rhythmic march of boots with.

    • Ken (in Texas) & others,

      I did say that some imagination is needed to figure out wwwh. I’ll add that, if you don’t learn wwwh, then imagination isn’t being used to learn why is it that wwh and where it is.

      I’m a fairly smart man and use my investigative skills to justify each clue as a matter of fact. It is very reasonable that if one finds wwwh that the rest of the clues are right under our noses. There is no reason to discount logical thinking, like things that F has mentioned to us to marry the poem to a map, a comprehensive understanding of geography and the poem is straightforward in plain English are all logical. That to me says that mostly logical thinking is needed in order to solving the poem.

      The poem is very tightly related to directions that can be found on a map. If one finds wwwh the rest of the clues most certainly can be found on a map in the nearby location of the first clue, it is a good case for logic to be used.

      I’m not bashing anyone that is a redneck, but F mention a redneck with a pickup truck full of children can find the treasure. That says to me also that a person that has a basic education can find the tc, a whole lot of smarts is not need, but the ability to learn is the basic requirement and logic is needed.

      I’ll give one good example, “the end is ever drawing nigh”, there are only two choices to make for the word *nigh* is either near or to the left, logic tells me that ever drawing near is not the right answer. Ever drawing near would mean one will never be near the tc. the end is ever drawing to the left means slowly going to the left and there is an end, which is more practicable logically.

      It seems to me folks are more concerned with clues after the first one. I wouldn’t worry about the clues after the first one, until the first clue is firmly nailed down, because it is a factual place because of logic, not of imagination. That is how I work and that all clues need to be nailed down as facts, instead of well it seems to fit but has no hard facts.

      Pure and simple the poem is the directions on a map that convey to a place in the real world geographically. The idea that one has to be very smart and it will take years to have the correct answers is only fooling folks to a sort of submission. What if does = some imagination that is needed to learn which = knowledge, but not all of the time because logic is needed with the poems directions, places and things.

      Is the poem tied to places that F has grew up with or visited? Logic tells me if I don’t want to be found with a chest full of gold and jewels, it most certainly *would not* be somewhere where folks knew I was familiar with, because that would make it much harder to find a body let alone the treasure and I firmly believe this is the case.

      If someone tells me a lot of imagination is needed throughout the poem, so be it. But I think folks would be better off to not to tie everything to the memoirs and to every word F spoke as a hint or a clue. Sure there are subtle hints in TTOTC, somethings that F spoke of *do help* as far as where not to look, ie. man made structure, not along the Rio Grande and not outside of the boundaries of the RM and not go where an 80 year old wouldn’t go, etc. Searching within every word spoken or wrote by F does muddy the search for answers to what the poem says.

      It’s just me, the primary focus is the poem married to a map geographically, isn’t this what its all about? I enjoy what F has shared with us very much, but I don’t hang onto every word spoken or written as a hint as to where the tc is at, for example name the kitty, is just about naming the artifact, yet some folks wants the kitty as a hint.

      I could go on and on, which isn’t necessary, because there will be rebuttals as to why things won’t work, we can’t possibly think like one another, let alone F. I think logic is on my side and not so much imagination.

      Over & out!
      Just Say’n

      • CharlieM;

        You say: “I’ll give one good example, “the end is ever drawing nigh”, there are only two choices to make for the word *nigh* is either near or to the left, logic tells me that ever drawing near is not the right answer. Ever drawing near would mean one will never be near the tc.”

        “Ever drawing near would mean one will never be near the tc.”

        NEVER be near the tc????

        Only two choices? I hate to disagree, but I will.

        Ever can mean more than once – not eternal or NEVER. So, “The end is ever drawing nigh…” can mean that the end will be getting closer more than once.

        End can mean a boundary or border – Thus, “the boundary or border will be drawing near more than once” (interp.).

        Let’s say that from the “put-in place”, as one travels down a road (by foot or by car) through the “meek area” towards the “end place” one goes from private ranch lands through BLM or National Forest land a couple of times – Doesn’t this describe “the end is ever drawing nigh”? That is how I see this line. JMO – JDA

        • JDA,

          Sorry to say,, it sounds like your going around in a circle, but hey that’s how you see things. As usual we disagree, you know where I stand, but hey again, both of us could be wrong my friend!

          Just Say’n

          • How am I going around in a circle? I go from the “Put-in” point through the meek area, and end up at the “End place” I just cross a couple of boundaries or borders between the two points. Doesn’t sound like a circle to me – just sayin’ – JDA

        • I had guessed that the end is ever drawing nigh. As Drawing
          water from a well. Related to water flowing. Ending on your
          Left. At the end of your quest or park your sedan. As say the
          river ends on your left. At the end of your quest is where the river will end on your left. The end is ever drawing nigh.
          Solves that are in Yellowstone. I Think are possible. I
          wonder if there is a Deed like quick claim or something in
          the chest. Have no knowledge if that would work. So bring a
          pen with you. I have just curiosity where it is at. One of you
          Serious searchers may find it. Maybe in a rock outcropping
          area. I like the Madison river area myself. Where would guy from Texas go. To west Yellowstone. My other Idea is
          Skippy. I have not found him to be a fly fisherman. Except
          in early years. Maybe he had his own adventures treasure
          hunting while FF and dad fished. Still trying to find the answers.
          Is the blaze a marking in rock. How would he throw himself down on it. Curiosity sounds like a good Name. LOL.

      • CharlieM,

        Logical doesn’t mean literal.

        A simple example is fenn’s Q&A {in part} about an 80 yr old is not going down and up as canyon. Add with; don’t go where an 80 yr old can’t go carrying a heavy backpack… and some other comments… is “Take it in the canyon down” to be literal? Or does logic imply “take it in the canyon down” as a viewing in some direction?
        The question here is; is that use of imagination or logic? Because, should we need to ‘look’ for something, it does seem that it’s not at all familiar to many folks who have been on site at the first two clues. This is one reason I asked, When does imagination kick in? If little Indy or any other person can figure out the first two clues with just a map of the US Rockies and the poem… does imagination need to be used when it comes to the next steps, on site, while we “observe”… Ken {TX} talked about imagination or lack of… I think we should be adding “observation” into the factor with “imagination.”

        Out of curiosity, and obviously to don’t have to answer … this is the third time I recall you mentioning ‘investigations” involving for employment / career. What did you do, might I ask.

        • Seeker, I think he said he was a detective at one point.
          I think with this topic we could go round and round until we croak. The thing is, and back to the ol’ point. Are we reading the poem correctly. Maybe imagination is needed BotG, maybe in solving the poem, maybe in the pics he uses, whatever, it seems to be all a side note. The real thing is that searchers have not been reading the poem correctly. That is why so many fail. Like Ken said, we need to change the normal way of thinking when tackling this problem.
          It’s not about starting with a map, it’s not to be taken at face value, it’s not about research, it’s about a straight forward poem. But is not read straight forward as we would believe. If it is hard but not impossible, easy enough to say “what took me so long”, and has stood the test of time for 8 years, then the logic would be in the assumption that everyone is still reading the poem incorrectly.
          There are instruction words in the poem, maybe that is where we should be looking in trying to get a grasp.
          On, in, here, with, can, keep, are, as, take, no, drawing, add, etc…etc…etc… And misspellings, sounds likes, etc… It just sounds to me like in the poem, he is telling us what to do.
          The fixation on trying to solve clues is the rabbit hole in this whole thing, IMO. In being at this for sooo long, nothing has panned out with the solve clues approach. Ken is right, a total new way of thinking is the best approach. If the poem does not tell you something, then just forget it. The poem will do everything. But, of coarse, the next write up we see will start with someone guessing at a start point because everything just fits so well, then the researched History lesson, then what they think are the clues, followed by why they didn’t find the chest. When all along, it is obvious, they start out guessing, and they never mention a poem solve.
          I posted about f not knowing for sure if someone has figured out four clues because that is actually very big. It says that it wasn’t written to him, or he would know, since he knows the clues. It wasn’t guessed or solved because he again would know. The only possible is a picture. And that is taken BotG. So how can searchers solve clue to clue when the 4th clue cannot be solved at home? Bar the foolish answers because it doesn’t fit solves, you cannot solve the poem going clue to clue. He has practically said as much in all his ATF’s. But that is what 95% of the community is attempting to do. (And with my..lol,…baby steps).

          • poisonivey,
            May I toss out a possibility about why nobody has yet solved this poem? Perhaps it is because they are not reading it from the correct point of view. Point of view is everything in my opinion. Do I have the correct point of view? I think so. But, I’m still not ready with a complete solve just yet. It is simple, yet complex. I’m still learning.

          • I think the following: FF’s “gut feeling” was more than just a guess, and that he has seen hints (likely understood as such by only 2 people) about having solved more than 4 clues. GE can be quite helpful; it even shows the location
            of Nessie. That’s Nessie, not Bessie.

          • Poison,

            While I have been an advocate for the idea we are reading the poem wrong… I also think some of the problem is about the process of how folks proceed with BOTG.

            The problem I’m seeing with the many posted solve processes I have read is; this need to stomp out hopeful deciphered clues and little or none in the area of “planning and observation” process we have been told / suggested by fenn.

            I’m not sure IF we can actually decipher a clue, as intended, [ beyond the first two ] without being on site. I’m pondering the idea the clues might be more visually subjective, than simply a place on a map. In fact, I wonder IF we can even map out the clues [ or follow them on GE ] at all.

            fenn has warned us; looking for later clues is a folly… Tells us; if you can’t find the chest to go back to the first clue. That comment seems reasonable at first read, right? ~ I screwed up, so I’ll go back to the first clue, and try and try again and again ~ Using the same process most of the time, only changing points or turns along the way.

            I think fenn might be implying more to his idea; if you don’t have the first clue, you have nothing. I think the first clue is what all the other clues revolve around in such a manner that, when folks walk away from WWWH to search for hopeful clues, they literally leave the poem.

            I don’t believe fenn created a typical treasure hunt of start here, go there, turn here, cont steps to there etc. I think this is truly an observational task [ for the most part ] IF we can “learn” what and where the first clue is, and see how it unfold with all the other clues involved. IMO, this might be the “important possibility” that all have skip.

            In a Q&A fenn responded; If you ‘know’ hob, why would you be concerned about WWH? I don’t think we can truly ‘know’ what hoB is, prior. I think it [ and all the physical clue’s references ] can only be correctly understood by visually seeing it,, and only seen fro the area of WWH.
            Hence IF, and that’s a big IF, somehow you could decipher hoB, beforehand, This would make WWH unnecessary… Only fenn had been very persistence in telling us we ‘need’ WWH or stay home. Without WWH we have nothing. Without it, all we’ll have is a nice vacation etc.

            Can the clues be solved at home? “Yes in theory.” A theory is just that, Speculation that needs testing. “but not in practice”… the need to be at WWH is possibly the only way to correct understand the later clues.

          • Hello Seeker. With this thought, do you believe it also falls in line with Mr. Fenn’s mention of “contiguous”?

          • Poison,
            As of now, I think contiguous as to mean ‘connecting, adjoining in such as way that if one piece was not present, the whole thing would fall apart.’ This Idea works well with the idea of an observational style process.
            It doesn’t work in a stomping point to point method. In that type of method, any physical point could easily lead to the next.. even if you don’t have the first point. Which make the poem flawed.
            I’m sure someone will bring up; What about the comment; which clue is needed [ or something like that ] ‘the last clue’… well, duh! if that was at all possible, we wouldn’t need any other clue at all. Hence my point. WWH is more than just a place on a map. Other wise we should be able to skip some clues… yet we have been warned that is not likely in practice.
            fenn has been asked many time about the idea of skipping clues or a short course that can be taken. The basic answer was; ~ the clues should be followed in order, there’s no other way he knows of. Then then; I followed the clue when I hid the chest… came out. If that does scream WWH is needed for a specific reason [ other than just a place on a map ] I don’t know what does. The creator of the clues stated he followed them while going to the hide. So I find it funny when folks say, they start BOTG at hoB or any later clue. Especially if that clue is miles away from the first clue [ and traveled to it ]. IF that was remotely possible-?!- then fenn’s comment; if you ‘knew’ what hoB is you’d go right to the chest, would be completely inaccurate.

            Sorry, I’m rambling again. Contiguous in my mind means, adjoining or connected… I’d even go as far as to say, systematically connected; consistent and organized in ‘its’ arrangement… as a whole, and not parts of it. IMO, WWH is synergy… it’s what pulls everything together.

          • Hello Seeker. I appreciate your thoughts. In the same line of thinking, would the part of the poem, “From there…,” be within the same thought of what you’re suggesting?

          • PD,
            Sorry about the earlier response to your post, and I placed the wrong name in that reply.

            As far as “from there” ?
            Using the same line of thinking, ‘from there’ hasn’t indicted any movement by the searcher… it seems to be explaining what the area represents ~ no place for the meek, line of thinking.

            If the idea is; we view the canyon down… locate a hoB… and the end being drawing toward the searcher… NPFTM could represent the canyon itself. However, this idea is hard for folks to understand.

            This scenario might help; A searcher is stand at WWWH and a canyon is close. Only the problem might be that a searcher can not see hoB from where they entered the location. They would need to ‘know’ they would have to locate hoB by moving around the area of WWH to see /locate hoB.

            In theory, hoB aligns the searcher in the proper spot at WWH… which is later ‘possibly referenced’ as HLnWH. The exact spot a searcher needs to be in to discover the blaze. Everything in stanza 3 might simply be explaining what is is we are view into… the canyon down. Which is a needed piece of information that tells us where to locate hoB.

            Simply saying; You are at WWWH, Not far away is hoB, but it’s too far to because you don’t need to go there… you only need to “take it in” -view- where it is, from the correct spot. Following the canyon right back to where you are standing… that is how you confirm you are in the correct spot, line of thinking. At which point the poem tells you [in theory] where you are at; “Just” HLnWH.

            All the clues references are need to fulfill the task of being in the correct spot… at the location of the blaze. As I said before… I think this is more an observational task vs. a searcher moving through points, and most of the time forcing 9 locations to travel to, or forcing major distances between clues that need alternative transportation.

            IMO, fenn parked and walked to WWH, went to the spot where he viewed his reference of hoB, described NPFTM leading back to WWH and?/or? a part of WWH, the refers to HLnWH. At which point, he created a blaze or used something on sight as a marked point at which he stood at.
            The concept is easy, able by a 80 yr old hauling a heavy backpack, done in one afternoon, and walking less than a few mile [ two trips combined ] from his car to the hide.. and… had to “follow” -see- his clues { he created by knowing this location well } by seeing them aligned, and finally complete ~ completed? the poem, and placed the chest where his always wanted it to be… In his special place.
            IMO, that special place is what WWH might refer to, rather than a 10″ sq piece of land that ended up being the hidey spot.

            In short, and in ‘theory’ ~ “from there” is from WWH in the exact spot one needs to be at… “Just {meaning exact} HLnWH”… is where the observational part of the task take place.
            Only you wouldn’t ‘know’ this until all the clues align properly…
            ~’Follow’ the clues that will ‘Lead’ to the treasure.
            Those two word could be the Achilles Heel that take searchers on a point to point search, rather than their other meanings; understanding what is being relayed.

            LOL, now if I was only clever enough to figure out what the first clue refers to, I’d put that scenario to test.
            As of right now the scoreboard shows;
            FF 9
            Seeker 0

          • Seeker, I do believe it is possible that you could be correct about not being able to find many of the clues until being on site. It would make sense if this was the case and the remaining 7 clues are in a small area. If all the clues were able to be found on a map then why have people only found the first two and possible four? Only to walk within 200 feet and pass it by along with the remaining clues.

            If I wrote a poem and would want it difficult but not impossible, and I wanted to get people outdoors I would not make it so all of the locations are able to be found on a computer.

          • I think on some level we all realize that the correct starting place, the first clue, has to be key. Forrest has said that without the first clue, we have nothing. And yet for a long time I think I still underestimated the importance of the first clue. Over time I have come to see just how central the first clue is. I almost see it now like the first clue is the sun, with the remaining clues planets revolving around the sun. Or the first clue is the center of a wheel, with remaining clues like spokes on the wheel. Each spoke is connected to the center, like each clue is in some way connected to the first clue. Looking at it this way makes Seeker’s theory of being able to observe several places from a single vantage point instead of stomping from point to point at least plausible.

            “If you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue.”

            “it” is at the first clue. The “treasure” is at the first clue… The “treasure chest” is at the first clue… _______ (what you think “it” in the poem refers to) is at the first clue. It all comes back to the first clue. It all boils down to the first clue.

        • Seeker,

          I personally think logic plays an important role and not so much imagination, that’s just me.

          To answer your question about investigative, I was criminal investigator, (major crimes) for a large city in the Midwest, some would say a detective, as poisonivey mentioned.

          This is why I approach the poem the way I do. Does that give me a leg up? Not really. Observation plays a roll, we all observe daily, but are we paying attention all of the time even when we are focused? Not really, people miss things that are important, this can apply to the our search even when taking things in from a vantage point, as you say.

          • Seeker,

            It appears that you are using more imagination and not so much of logic. Are you even looking at map during the course of working on a solution? Didn’t F tell us that all is needed is the poem, map and knowledge of geography?

            The idea of, are all of the clues contiguous? I would agree with yes. Each clue is connected to previous clues and every clue after that, even if you are looking at a map or botg.

            As pdenver asks about *from there*, you say right there is NPFTM, I would disagree. I think after *put in*, *from that spot it is a direction to head toward NPFTM. Sure yours may be true and mine also, its how one approaches the context as to what is being said.

            From what I take away from you is that PIBTHOB and NPFTM are one in the same place, two clues combined. It comes across to me that the two clues are separate and there is distance between. Could you tell me why F would piggy back clues in one spot? Personally I don’t think F would do that.

            I would like to add two things, its pretty hard to see things from and observation point in the RM, its just as hard to see things with botg. You said, “In theory, hoB aligns the searcher in the proper spot at WWH… which is later ‘possibly referenced’ as HLnWH.” Yep just a theory and more than likely not in practice. WWWH has nothing to do HLAWH as a reference to wwwh, they are two seperate clues to two different places.

            I like how you approach *theories*, but the sad part its purely imagination and a guess. Are you doing the real work for a solution or are you just arm chairing? As you said, Seeker 0. Its a no wonder with wild imagination and theories.

            I have to poke at you, its fun, no fowl.
            Just Say’n

          • Ok CharlieM, Thanks for the reply.

            I’m not downing your skill sets, However, your approach is more about tangible info of a physical scene and probabilities related to that scene, rather than, possibilities of past and/or future or both that may need understanding.
            You probably know, an eye witness is not the best witness, in most cases. You probably realize when attempt to look at something, other things can be easily missed, even when they are in your view. { when focusing on what you think you might need to focus on }

            The mindset of a searcher [ for the most part, when reading a person solve ] has one single method involved… Find a place at a location, then move to another location to find another place. This method allows very little of thoughts to many aspects we have been told to think about;
            Down the road; 100 years, 1000 even longer.
            The big picture.
            That information {clues} can change/ have an impact, with the movement of the RM’s. { lets call that natural movement vs. unknown catastrophes.}
            Or the fact fenn tells us how he did the task [followed his clues], a somewhat time line [one afternoon], and a relative idea of distance involved. [less than a few miles – with two trips – using the same route].
            Other things mentioned; { only adding for thought }
            Try to marry the clues to a place on map.
            An 80 yr old is not going down and up a canyon.
            “Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing that they had been so close.” { all 9 clues, and on site }.
            And what I think is a very important, a non-answered Q&A { Beck’s question about the blaze }
            And, warns us to be able to walk several hours to our solve, twice. {I assume that is the total hours for a full completion of the challenge, and not one way from where we park to the hide} Which in of itself is interesting to ponder.

            Yet he adds, this is not going to be done on a Sunday picnic or a Spring Break…
            I’m curious, how to your take the idea of the comment of spring break and a picnic?

            Here’s one quote;
            “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”

            What are we not understanding-?- about time?
            What does this comment [ and the others ] seem to be relaying to the idea of solving clues, and the task of following clues and retrieving the chest, in your mind?
            In my mind, imagination could play a big roll in understanding, not only how inventive the clue might be, but how to understand ‘what to do with them’.

            Just curious how you see these comments… using your skill-set.

          • CharlieM;

            Just a hypothetical – If my WWWH location is a place that a rivulet or stream goes underground – If I can then find the place further down a canyon or mountain where my WWWH reappears, can’t this new spot (where it reappears) be called WWWH – The NAME applied where it went underground, why can’t that same NAME describe the spot where it reappears? Let’s say that where it reappears is below a spot I call hoB – I have followed the poem – I began WWWH, I took it in the canyon down (even if I couldn’t see it because it was underground), and I then “put-in” (the place that it reappeared) below the hoB. Same WWWH, but at two different locations.

            Just a hypothetical – Something to ponder during the winter break. Who knows, maybe the Tarry Scant, HLnWH and the Blaze are all in one spot as well???

            Just mumblin’ – JDA

          • Seeker,

            Sorry for the late reply, honey do’s and a project.

            Some put up road blocks such as 100 or 1000 years, movement of the RM, walk several hours. Living in the past, as no search has been past the 2nd clue. Its like saying, well heck if its not going to be 100 years or more, and I’m not going to solve the clues past the 2nd clue, why bother.

            The point I’m trying to make is, why limit your selves, the clues can be solved here and now. I find most of F’s comments to be true, but the list you gave, some have been in the past which folks put up as road blocks.

            Aren’t the 9 clues mostly of places the rest are things? The problem I’m sure of is that most don’t know wwwh, hob, NPFTM, its what they see in there mind, before searching and forcing nine clues as to where they think is the correct starting area.

            It is a matter of looking at the right map and doing the research to know wwwh. In my opinion folks are trying to associated the memiors, where F spent his summers, where he lives, the books he wrote and people he had contact with to find the tc. I don’t believe that is what the Chase or the tc hunt is about. The subtle hints in TTOTC were not intended according to F, it is a challenge to even recognize them and more of a dart toss, unless one has solved the poem they might be able to recognize them. I don’t think they are necessary in finding the tc, that just me.

            What the Chase is more about is the poems directions to the tc and to get people off of the couch and a way from electronics and out in nature.

            Investigations has a large part to do the research and to look closely to find the answers in many different aspects of a case and to find sound facts with most certainty to present a proper truthful completed investigation.

            I’ve taken into account the videos, ATFs, Q&As, when researching, but it all comes back to the poem, a map and the correct starting place, the rest gets easier from there.

            Just Say’n

          • SEEKER, finally, starting to get it…I totally agree…almost…99.99%. The only thing that I disagree on is trying to solve the first clue. I believe that is what you are implying that needs to be done. And of course, I say it cannot be done. Not in a way we as searchers consider “solve”. But everything else is dead on.
            It is an observational thing, hoB is observational, (and not a clue, and cannot be solved), the blaze (observational, and cannot be solved), the prior clue is not needed to solve the next, the prior clue just comes before on the path. That is why I say if you need to solve the next clue using the prior clue, then how would you even start? What clue comes before the first?
            I know the number thing is not seen by many, and neither are the coordinates, but it’s the one thing that can answer all the unknown. If you solve the poem and get coordinates to a spot, from that spot draw your path, the start would be wwwh. That start spot will have it’s references from hints and ATF’s, and that is where the walking begins. Just follow the path, OBSERVING along the way references to the clues. The second, third, forth, etc…Some of the clues will already be known, distances, directions, but all along your path, until at the spot, then the last clue comes into play.
            Everything fitting, no questions. If a clue to clue solver tries to explain there path, they are stuck at the first clue, can’t even start. There is no clue before the first, and f has said that there is no answer he has given for the first clue. I think that is the only thing you and I disagree with. Being able or needing to solve the first clue. In finding a spot, drawing your path, and finding where to start, that is learning where wwh. It’s foolish to try to solve for later clues because that is not how the path is determined or the poem solved.
            There is nothing anywhere that says to start at a certain location. Nothing subtle or unsubtle. The only way to determine where to start is to find out where you are going. That is also why I say, you will know the end spot before you know wwwh. IMO, any attempt at solving wwwh is simply a guess or is derived from a guess. And I mean from solving it as a lone clue, where then you can solve the next clue and so on. Just look at all the write ups. Always, without failure, start with a guess. Nothing on how the poem tells them to start where they did. In fact, watch, the next write up will be the same. You would think that searchers would police themselves and know what a guess is. They know that when it comes down to it, they guess, but of course don’t admit.
            We have to go with the obvious, knowing that some of the clues are seen on site. That means that if you go clue to clue, you cannot have a solve. You cannot possibly know what is out there beforehand. F has said it many times, you put an “X” on a map. The poem does that, solving clues cannot do that. You are hindered at the start, you know that some clues cannot be solved beforehand, so there would be no path. It’s the realization that this is the way to solve the poem, (not trying to solve all clues). That starting over from all the research one has done is just not possible. So making a solve fit works better. That’s where they leave the poem, and that’s why they are wrong. I give them the ‘possibility”, because really we don’t know, but organize everything f has said. It all brings to light only one answer. Most searchers are interpreting the poem incorrectly. You don’t need a map, you don’t need a computer, you just need the poem.
            (and with my, :)) Instructions….

          • JDA,

            The question I propose to you, are you able to firmly justify your theory as fact all the way through the poem. Can you disprove your theory by yourself? Do you have questions about any part of your solve?

            Your asking what I think, when I can”t give you an answer, because I do not know how your full theory works. Seems to me you need to answer your questions. However it may be possible in regards to your wwh, but where it starts as a rivulet could be, but not after, there’s no certainty that where it comes back from underground is the same wwh.

            Just Say’n

          • CharlieM;

            You ask: “The question I propose to you, are you able to firmly justify your theory as fact all the way through the poem.

            Q) – What theory? I am merely posing the possibility that if I NAME a spot where a rivulet or stream goes underground, that I can use the same name (WWWH) at the spot it reemerges.

            Can you disprove your theory by yourself?

            Q) Again, what theory.

            Do you have questions about any part of your solve?

            A) Absolutely not.

            How do I know that the spot that my rivulet reemerges is the same one that went underground?

            A) Remember, this is a hypothetical, so I can “assume” that they are the same. Does it really matter? It is just an idea

            Forrest used “Names” of things and/or places as a way of identifying needed elements in the poem. I am just taking these same NAMES and applying them to hypothetical “Spots” or “Locations” and questioning the possibility that there COULD be more than one “Location” for a given NAME, under certain circumstances.

            Thanks for the questions – JDA

          • CharlieM,

            Lets clarify a couple things. fenn never said it would take 100 years to solve,[there is no limitation presented] He said he was looking down the road… he crafted the poem… felt like an architect writing the poem. { all relating to what he was thinking when he wrote the clues of a location he knows like the back of his hand }

            But he did say the quote I posted and others comments saying the same. Not done on a Sunday picnic or spring break.. however he did mention his task was done in ‘summer.’ Could it be that it can only be accomplished in that time period.

            My point was; if he was thinking of time that far ahead… shouldn’t we?
            This is where [ again, not downing your skill-set ] you’re only looking at this as a present day only solution.
            The ‘crime scene’ { trying to be clever } might be older than we think.. or even.. related to something that will soon { in geological terms } fade out as time goes on.

            For example only, to show my point; if WWH refer to a specific glacier… in a 100 years or a 1000 it can be gone, or moved far enough, to throw other clues off kilter. { just a quick example}.
            So the point is; where and when does imagination kick in..? because fenn has stated outright, this challenge will be solve “mostly by imagination”

            These AFT’s are the investigator’s fact findings… testimonial of the suspect, so to speak. If they are not looked into, the wrong conclusion is more than likely to be seen.
            So, we have a thought process when creating the poem’s clues ” down the road ” the “big picture” talked about when asked about WWH, and in the mountains N of SF. And the other comments I posted earlier. Do we dismiss these only because we should be able to locate the trove in the now?
            My other point, which I really didn’t emphasis well, are all the clue separate individual places that can stand on their own, or are they all tied into the same location and can not be separated?
            A point to point method, dismisses [for the most part ] the idea of the clues being “contiguous” Which seems to me… even if movement of the range will have an impact of the clues… it would basically affect the location of the first clue. Why? because fenn as stated many times, it is the needed clue or stay home, you’ll have nothing but a nice vacation, without it you have nothing.
            Have you never asked yourself, why this might be?
            Seems to me, if that should be factual, WWH is the smoking gun. So how can folks [ more than several ] mention this clue and clue two, and some may have mentioned the first 4… yet all don’t know what they are looking at?
            1/2 the clues solved, or at the very least, mentioned correctly in their order, folks walking by clues, some getting as close as 200′ and all still don’t know.. by fenn’s stating as much.

            Something is missing… or the lack of something is not being utilized. Two things come to mind… lack of imagination or thinking the right things [which I think revolves around the first clue, and not just where it is located] and the lack of proper observation.
            Now my question is; do those [ imagination and observation ] to fit together like a glove or separate at each clue reference?

            LOL… I haven’t even mentioned “planning” yet? I mean, what do we need to plan for when deciphering the clue’s references.

            Here’s the major difference in your approach vs. mine. I honestly don’t believe we can solve clues 3 – 9 at home or on a map. We need to be at WWH for it all to unfold, thinking, imagining and observing what fenn is a tempting to relay, show us. The same way he did it in his mind when writing the clues, and finalizing the task… he ‘saw it’ differently then we are reading it… simply because the poem sounds like a typical stomping point to point method. But that method doesn’t work well with the ideas ‘ suggestion of observation and planning, nor thinking down the road or use of imagination, and a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.

            Most only think about the last suggestion as being a place only. but not understanding anything about the place itself… we need to ‘learn’ what is.. where it is ~WWH [ and I’ll add why fenn chose it ]. Is that only done by researching books and map? or are we to ‘learn’ by revisiting the crime scene and put imagination to work?

            LOL because it seems a lot of folks get there and don’t know what to do or what to look for… even when the remaining clues are seemingly close at hand. Because the went by the seven remaining clues and the chest… they left.

            In theory of course, and in summation of known factual ATF’s. For me, those verifiable [call them sworn testimonies] ATF’s are an investigators wet dream. LOL Unless you think the suspect in this case is only telling 85% of the true 100% of the time.
            Is it more logical we are only listening to the 85% we want to hear…

            End of commentary.

          • Seeker,

            What if? Is using imagination to help approach the problem, but those *what if’s* need to apply to different aspects, some end up cold and other’s lead to the correct answers. That is needed to solve the clues, its a matter of trial and error to disprove and prove.

            You keep bringing things up that I’m not taking into account nor looked any comments from F and not applying those in solving the poem. How in the world you think things are done during an investigation is very broad. Do you truly know how things are done during and investigation or had schooling and knowledge with experience over years? I doubt it, and stop implying that I’m not doing the work correctly or haven’t taken into account with what is being said. Do you know for sure what I look at? Again its a big false speculation on your part.

            Another you bring up years down the road and how things might change, again you put up road blocks and are not interested with the idea that the tc may very well be found in our time.

            You can criticize my solution, but don’t criticize my method and how I go about the process and don’t take jabs at my skill set, which in turn is personal. That may not have been your intention, but it is clear there is no understanding. I can’t do things your way.

            Just Say”n

      • Charlie,
        Why would you think a redneck doesn’t have a lot of learning, as you put it? I don’t believe you know what a true redneck is. I’m a redneck, my father also. He is a farmer & one of the smartest people I’ve ever met. Not many folks realise the amount intelligence needed to calculate the amount of seed needed for a season. It’s impressive really, how exact he is. Sorry to carry on but the respect I have for my father compelled me to so.
        No reply needed!

        • Haaay now!
          Sorry Charlie… as an authentic redneck myself, I hafta hop on board w/Birdie on this one. You said, “a whole lot of smarts is not need”(sic). I couldn’t agree more, although I believe the trick is- you DO have to have enough smarts to begin with in order to figure that out. And you may want to work on honing your investigative skills a little as f never said a redneck can find the treasure… but I think it will b stupe n dous… if one does.

          • Mr. Farmerfreind:

            Thank you for your condolences and the laughter you brought me. I’m sure my family members feel much better that they have contributed to the welfare of the livestock. I think my lost ones made it to a better field at least in my perception. For without the livestock there may be a few with a different point of view. Can’t say anymore.

            On another line of thought. You are right he said probably if you knew exactly where it was. Exactly is a real precise term, used in the universe it could be the size of Hawaii. Like all Mr. Fenns thoughts, what does that mean. In my old profession exactly referred to thousands of an inch, other practices even closer. But as you pointed out, he said snow is your enemy. I’m not the fastest bullet out there, so maybe I just make too much out of what I read.

            On another note, be careful out on the road. The youth seem to be speedsters, can’t say I wasn’t Young wants to. Not trying to stereotype.

            Compared to other searchers, I’m reasonably new and hope that my past efforts earn me the task I promised I would do.

            You must be a wise man, and I appreciate your contribution to the chase and your words of encouragement.

            Besides the Chase: If you ever are granted the authority to bring in an extra hand in, let me know I would be excited to relive some of my past before my time is up.

            Grasshopper: I just like it,Old TV Show. I’ve just recently tried blogging,I don’t know what I am doing. Others use strange names, so thought I would to.

        • Birdie Bates & miafarmerfriend,

          I said right from the start, “I’m not bashing anyone that is a redneck, but F mention a redneck with a pickup truck full of children can find the treasure.”

          You should jump on F, he’s the one that brought up rednecks, During past years in mine and F’s lifetime, rednecks weren’t very smart, at least that was the implication at that time, it was akin to hillbilly’s not being very smart. It was kinda of like a slang, and I agree in this age it is somewhat a bigot statement, but that is what I took what F may have been implying. I’m just an old coot and have heard those slang’s many times, now it’s not politically correct nor morally right.

          I apologize personally and that is what I thought F was probably referring to, but you can’t condemn me for growing up with those slang’s and knowing what was what they referring to. I didn’t intend to dig a deep hole and coming off as crude or rude. Then again the hole may be deeper now and I shouldn’t comment on this further.

          • CharlieM,

            I can’t tweet for Birdie, but it’s all good with me!

            My comment wasn’t meant as criticism of your pcness so much as it was your interpretation of f’s words. Heck, you can’t look sideways today without offending someone… it gets old after a little while. As far as I’m concerned, it’s up to each individual to look in the mirror at the end of the day and decide whether they are happy with what they see.

            So anyhoo, I’m glad you said “and that is what I thought F was probably referring to”, because when I read your post (far above) I did so thinking you were suggesting f was saying it is possible for an ignorant person to find the chest, and that just doesn’t jive with my solve. That would equate to someone stumbling upon it, and I believe you will have to earn it; which is why I said I’m an “authentic” redneck. In hindsight… maybe I should have said I’m a literal redneck.

            I’m only here to play on Forrest’s playground, and anything I say is meant to be received in a lite-hearted manor! ; )

      • Just a nickel to put under your suppositions..
        When I look at PhD, I may not know the acronym, but thanks to experience, this redneck knows it’s a doctor..
        In fullness of investigation, nigh may mean “nincompoops in goober’s hacienda” for all we know..


        • Maybe the n used to be an h but Forrest split a little frito pie on it and the rest is history.

          • Miafarmerffreind

            First and formost here,I just want to say that the positive dialogue you guys displayed regarding the (redneck intelligence) was extremely noble!!!
            From my point of view , I believe that everyone from every walk of life carries the same attributions towards intelligents , knowledge, and life’s supreme purpose.

            So givin all that rhetoric here is my question.

            Being a newbie to all this chat and a weed hoeing farm boy, with only a high school diploma, 3 English classes my senior year to graduate… sorry that was an incorrect sentence.
            No Matter, do you think someone like myself could have the chest if they worked day and night, longer and harder then they have ever in there lifetime

            As far as rednecks go, I had horses as a youth and did not think much of them then. The motorcycle came my way, I road the wheels of that thing and I was a different man.

            I have read conflicting points of view on whether the chest is Retrievable in winter time.
            Being a farmer (speculative) and knowing weather, do you think one could retrieve the chest during that season.

            I am a greenhorn here, so any words of encouragement would be helpful.
            If not I will continue to seek higher council

            Need not explain.

          • Grasshopper;

            Welcome to the chase. Farm boy or Lawyer, or scientist, we all have the same chance. Follow the clues and hints that Forrest has offered, and one of those hints is to lay-low during the winter. He did say that if you knew precisely where it was, that it could be found in any season (or was it weather??) I would solve in winter, and put BotG in spring or summer – JMO – JDA

          • Hello grasshopper,
            First off, I offer my condolences for all your extended family members who have met their demise whenever I mow hay. Although I’m sure the livestock appreciate the extra protein. : )

            As for retrieval of the chest in Winter:
            I wish I knew that answer. Mr. f himself was only willing to commit to “probably”… and only if you knew exactly where it was. He also said snowy days are a searcher’s worst enemy. So even if I knew exactly where it was, I wouldn’t strike out on my own unless I felt fairly certain Mother Nature was with me.

            Now for fixin’ the “redneck issue”:
            I’m not really concerned with how anyone defines “redneck” in the real world. I admit I got caught up in the cheerleading because us farm folk tends to stand together. And I get a chuckle when somebody wants to show me I’m a *number 1* redneck because I took an extra 15 seconds out of their life while they were stuck behind me going down the road on their way home to get that steak on the grill…or most any other thing they stick in their mouth. But I mostly chimed in because of the (now; possibly mistaken) impression I got from reading CharlieM’s post.

            Forrest said whoever finds the chest will have earned it. So I hope the following better explains my thoughts. I’ll use “The Secrets of San Lazaro Pueblo” for the scenario- (I am surmising as I have not read it). Initially, I would think it fair to say Forrest was ignorant of the “secrets” until he put in the effort to gain (earn) the knowledge to reveal those secrets. And I suspect he just might have earned a redneck as well! Therefore, you can’t find the treasure by continuing to be ignorant.

            Sorry for the delay, our recent snow adds a whole nother layer to chores. Good luck!

            Btw: I have half a mind to disclose to you that I may only be eligible for ‘partial’ redneck status since I’m not the owner of the farm, just the friendly farmhand.

    • in support of and to further what ken stated…
      i will add once again, if you are taking literally and looking for stanzas 2,3 and 4 in the real world (physical realm) geography then…… CANASTA!


      • I know.. Maybe a young FF stepped in a hole in the Madison
        and lost his meek reel and pole. And Skippy went in the cold water and got it. Otherwise it would have been a long ride home.
        Wait a minute how do you play that Canasta game again..
        Can I get an award for stupid statements. I am just kidding.
        Yes I guess I am an Idiot. Ok I commented for All.
        But Really I believe you are getting a small search area but
        you will not stumble on it. You will have to work for it.
        It is hidden I guess. But marked somehow. At a place on a
        map where the poem takes you.
        My complete guess. I do know it is somewhere in 4 states.
        Well Good Luck to ALL this Treasure hunting season. 2019…

      • I find it ironic that the opposite of “maybe” also means “maybe”;

        do you find it difficult to give hints without saying too much?

        • I have no clue where it is. I know where I would look first
          if I was not just an armchair. A BOTG searcher will find
          it one day. I already gave up on finding it. From what I
          have gained FF is a really nice guy. So Far I see the makings
          of 3 meetings coming up. It would be ideal if one of those
          Parties found it. This Summer. Lighten up and enjoyed
          their get together. My Thoughts. 2019…

        • yes but i do it anyhow. not many listen…
          oldrich farsky, mountain vista, oil on canvas….
          go alone in there on an imaginative journey, follow procession from wwh (which can only truly happen in still life representation) or frozen water to the chest.
          hint: the blaze is a horse face silhouette in red on a rock.

          *verification provided by SB182 and weekly words, “theres a sky”
          it is my opinion that this is not coincidence

      • So you are saying that we do not begin the chase in the “real world (physical realm)”? So there is no true start place?
        That there is no true “canyon”, no form of “walking”, that there is no physical blaze, and we will not be at a spot to “look down”?
        That everything in stanzas 2,3, and 4 are somewhere other then this planet? Or am I defining ‘literal’ wrongly?

        Definition of literal:
        1a : according with the letter of the scriptures
        //adheres to a literal reading of the passage
        b : adhering to fact or to the ordinary construction or primary meaning of a term or expression : actual
        //liberty in the literal sense is impossible
        c : free from exaggeration or embellishment
        //the literal truth
        d : characterized by a concern mainly with facts
        //a very literal man
        2 : of, relating to, or expressed in letters
        //The distress signal SOS has no literal meaning.
        3 : reproduced word for word : exact, verbatim
        //a literal translation.

        So stanzas 2,3, and 4 are never to be seen for “face value”?
        Then that would mean you believe that wwwh is solvable in some subtle form of way, right?
        (secret, hidden, abstract, etc..) way? Since taking stanza 2 in a literal way yields nothing in the “real world”.
        So if you were to do a write up, you would show us in some subtle way how you solved wwwh? That a physical start place has nothing to do with anything in these three stanzas, and has no line 5 reference? I don’t think Ken meant that to that extreme.
        As the poem is written, it should not be taken literally as far as solving, but, in the end, the face value of the poem will be seen throughout your path. It has to be. Ken, I believe, was just stating that imagination will come into play. That to take the poem at face value and then try to solve is the wrong way to do it. All in the realm of possible. But you are taking it too far. To say that stanzas 2,3, and 4 are not physically here in the real world, lol, come on. I think you are in for a Canasta game of your own.
        I believe the “maybe” in your post saves you from others not taking you serious. Because your post, before that point, cannot be taken seriously.

        • the blaze is a horse face silhouette in red on a rock.
          Where is this rock? Not in the “real world”?
          Come on Badger, a little more serious, please.

          • did you google artist: oldrich farsky, mountain vista, oil on canvas?
            the rock is in the painting. as is little dude in a boat (no paddle up), skull (no place for meek/ hell or high water), red horse face on rock (blaze), and yes, look quickly down from the blaze the chest. not indulgence it looks more of a pirates chest.
            if you dont see it or get it now, youre not going to.
            anybody else see it feel free to chime in.

            as he went alone in there is an imaginative journey inside the painting

          • poisonivey,
            it is not my intention to convince you.
            i have my sights set on a little metal box full of trinkets.
            im just tryin to be a good sport. go easy on me.

          • well. you certainly didnt put the poise in poisonivey.
            i never claimed this is the entire solve. merely the first clue. clues can be contained within clues and within this clue, the first clue is wwh.
            have you been involved long enough to know that you have to………wait for it……nail down the first clue.
            just sayin

          • BadgeR;

            I assume that you were a band member in your youth – why else would you try to be a one-man-band and toot your horn so loudly? I for one, am not impressed.

            Are we supposed to be impressed because you know – Nail it down?

            Be proud of your solve, but being boastful does NOT make it correct – Just the opinion of an OLD searcher – JDA

          • i reiterate, im not trying to impress, convince, persuade, (enter other verbs or synonym of choice here) anybody so please spare me how let down you are.
            play nice
            though i have not enough statistical data to ascertain, but it appears that those that are quick to accuse me of boasting are those whom have boasted and come up empty handed. give me atleast the chance to fail before discrediting my beliefs and presumably attacking my confidence. thats fair.

        • poisonivey- would you buy stanza 2,3,4 are mirror images?

          imagine a mirror image i think.

          • Bob, in what form do you mean mirror images? Not quite catching that one. I have tried different styles in solving the poem. And yes, tried mirroring the end and the start, but found nothing. I don’t think of the poem as having any mirrors, except, certain things within the poem are solved within a “mirror” concept. If that is what you are asking. An example, alpha/numeric values. I believe there are numbers within the poem. From letter values. The poem only gives half of the letter values. So at first thought, it should be discarded as a means, but, if you take those initial letter values, (let’s say A=7), then if you go forward and back 7 places, you would get T and H. That’s is somewhat like a mirror concept. The thing with “T” and “H” is that they end up equaling each other. And that is how you solve for all the letter values. When done, you have the whole alphabet, the primary letter values happen to add up to 80, and the secondary values add up to 57. Those letter values have back up. Just things that make them correct. That is somewhat like a mirror concept, and, some of those values would be found in those stanzas. But as far as the poem, mirroring, or looping back onto itself, or “switching” back as a loop, to me, the poem is straight forward, from start to finish, with the last clue within line 24. Some clue lines are references to be observed on your path, others can be solved, like distance and direction.
            To switch topics, BadgerR, don’t get me wrong, pictures do play a role in the chase, but F’s pictures. The one’s he has manipulated. And, you are using ‘nailed down’ within the wrong context, IMO. Nobody can know if they have the first clue nailed down, as you say, until they have the chest, therefore, “nailed down” is meant as something else in meaning. Possible place with nails, railroad tracks, whatever, etc… And yes, been here a long time. Sorry I was harsh on your solve, got carried away. Just hope that you might really think it over, may save some money. The poem, the poem, the poem. Solve it without outside influences, IMO.

          • poisonivey-
            i looked up the definition of mirror image
            “an image or object which is identical in form to another, but with the structure reversed, as in a mirror”

            “a person or thing that closely resembles another”

            to me stanza 2, 3 and 4 contain things that closely resemble Yellowstone Park. this place, and the things outside and inside mirror Yellowstone and are not a dangerous pace. safe for kids.

        • stanzas 2,3,4 happen in the painting (at least one of the times thru the poem).whether they happen again im …im not telling anymore.

          • The only images I found were extremely low resolution do you have a higher resolution?

          • Badger, you said, “in support of and to further what ken stated…
            i will add once again, if you are taking literally and looking for stanzas 2,3 and 4 in the real world (physical realm) geography then…… CANASTA!
            You then provided this:

            And now, lastly this “stanzas 2,3,4 happen in the painting (at least one of the times thru the poem).whether they happen again im …im not telling anymore.

            Really? That is the basis of a good solve? This is where you are going. (I guess so since you ended with, “couldn’t be more serious”)
            My post was in respect of saying that stanzas 2,3, and 4 are not in the real world. Had I known that a possible write up would constitute just a picture, and the coincidences within to stanzas 2,3, and 4, I would not have asked if you were serious. I would just know that “left field” is not that far out there in this imaginary scenario for you. How is that solving the poem? F spent 15 years on this poem, to only be solved in this way??? So again, I ask, “ARE YOU SERIOUS”? Are you sure that is what you are going with?
            Stanzas 2,3, and 4 happen everywhere in the world, all the time. Are you telling us to go here: https://www.invaluable.com/artist/farsky-oldrich-oscar-wc5h0s64w7/sold-at-auction-prices/
            to solve Forrest Fenn’s poem? Or that the three most important stanzas in his poem are solved from a $1,000.00 Oldrich Farsky painting? Never mind all the Eric Sloane’s, the answer is in Oldrich?
            Sorry, but I don’t see the poem referring to this gentleman. I don’t see his name literally, in a subtle way, unsubtle, or in my imagination. In fact, and sorry to say, it’s one of the most ridiculous ideas I’ve heard throughout this chase. If you can convince me, you may be onto something, but you need to do that through the poem solve and not a painting. Even if someone gave a picture of the actual, overall setting of the chest hide spot, that would not constitute a solve. If the chest was hidden around Ol’ Faithful, and you had a picture of the whole landscape, do you really believe that would be a solve? Would you know where to go, how to go, what directions, distance, etc…???

          • You got a heck of an imagination BadgeR.
            Why does it have to rely on a painting not known by many unless we dig into artists instead of geography?

          • ill bet i know the search term that is about to reach into the 10s of thousands really soon…
            its ok. im right on top of it and i dont think/hope anyone can katsup. i so badly wanna share HoB…..but not tonight. somebody somewhere already wants to throw rocks at me.

          • What is so fun about this chase is the poem can fit in so many places. And when someone finds one of those places they are convinced they know where the treasure is. It’s okay, I have done it too 🙂

          • Toxic masculinity. Dang, the Libs are right. Oh well. Blind hogs, broken clocks and such. You folks need a Snickers.

          • jake faulkner,
            i am relying on a painting i expect nothing of nobody else.
            call me crazy but what did forrest sell for forty plus years?
            to all, i dont intend to come off boastful or toot my own horn. i am sharing good intel that if given consideration and explored could yield more progress than has been made in…..nah, that statement would be tootin. im trying to not be boastful.
            how many times have searchers said something along the lines….”is there something were missing”, “are we not interpreting the clues the way they were intended”?
            seeker could substantiate this statement.
            did poisonivey really say that he/she cannot see reference to oldrich farsky?
            RICHes new and OLD & too FAR to walk. yet im asked if im seriousness.
            ive even cited support of this oldrich farsky, mountain vista in SB182 and mysterious writings weekly words “theres a SKY”
            just short of spelling it out, use this method within the same line of the same stanza and see where it takes you.
            marry the clues within the 1st clue (the painting or a good map if you prefer) to a place on a map ie the real geography “PUT IN BELOW THE HOME OF BROWN” .
            if you overlay this painting on the real geography, its remarkable how they match. wow i cant believe…
            …ive given this much might as well….if you stand in the real geography at the place of oldrichs point of view, you have transfer back into reality.
            one would think to look down just ahead to the right and there is indulgence, but theres a but tarry scant with marvel gaze that changes direction (not necessarily NSEW) again. call it directive instead.
            please give due consideration, explore the given some more, consult cited potential verification, apply method elsewhere in the poem, and discover for yourself before jumping me.
            or jump, makes me no nevermind.
            all i know is that black race pony and i got noone in the rear view mirror.
            which could be good or bad

          • So I guess the searchers that have been to the first two also knew of good ol’ Oldrich?
            “did poisonivey really say that he/she cannot see reference to oldrich farsky?
            RICHes new and OLD & too FAR to walk”
            Yes, I did. How about the “es” in riches? How about the words “new” “and” “too” “to” “walk”, they don’t fit so don’t need them?
            And “there’s a sky”, huh? Eric Sloane mural at the Smithsonian, means nothing?
            Really, still think f based this whole thing on a $1,000.00 painting of someone he has never mentioned? That painting was so important, that he used it before thinking about using references to his family, friends, and childhood adventures?
            And again, where in the poem did it tell you to do this, or follow this line of thinking?
            BadgerR, makes no mind to me if you want to follow this idea. I will concede that it’s just your theory and that’s how you see it. Just trying to get you to see what you are posting and running with. If deep down you think f really based this on that, then good luck to you, everything is a coincidence until the chest is found. Everywhere can fit a forced solve. But, IMO, more with the poem in the ‘real world” and less on the guessing.

  26. So, the other day the family broke out an old game that we had tucked away in the closet. It’s a kids game called headbandz. Your supposed to take a picture card from the deck, no peeking, and place it on your headband facing out. The objective of the game is simple. You ask the other players questions to try and determine “what you are.”

    My daughter asked a few questions which drew some firm no responses. Then she asked, “am I an animal?”

    “Yes,” we affirmed.

    She went on to ask a few more more concise and clever questions which gave her confidence that she was painting the correct picture in her head. Before too long she understood all the physical characteristics of the beast, the size, shape, color, and more. She smiled because she just knew she had it nailed.

    “Am I a horse?”
    “No.” She looked puzzled and asked a few more questions.
    “Am I a deer?” Nope.

    She just kept on going, question after question, and it was as if we had buried her deeper with each response we gave. Pretty soon the situation had become hopeless, i could see it in her eyes.

    In the end, we all felt a little bad because we weren’t even sure we had answered the questions the way we should have. But we were doing the best we could.

      • Yes, a unicorn. When we said that it was an animal, and did our best to describe the features of something she (or we) clearly didn’t understand, though we were being as candid as we could be. She protested that perhaps we should have tried to be more correct with our answers because unicorns aren’t real. We countered with the idea that based on the questions she was asking she clearly didn’t understand the problem anyway so we were trying to be helpful. She said that a unicorn is not an animal in her dictionary and if we are all just going to make assumptions about things we don’t understand then the game would desend into chaos. We decided the argument was good enough and gave her the point.

    • Clee- shouln’t the game have been over when you responded with a “yes” to her asking if she was an animal?
      she guessed correctly, game over .

      or am i missing something here.


  27. Ideas for a correct start. So if begin at WWWH. Is the key word in that statement.
    Maybe.. Halt.. So trains halt at stations. Or converge at Junctions. Temporary
    Halts. Petticoat Junction. Where would warms waters. Are there lots of places
    North of Santa Fe possible train halts or stations or Junctions. Where would warm
    waters converge or What Junction. Like so many thousands thought. Madison Junction.
    Still is a high possibility. Maybe focused on Halt. So would you need a key word to
    get it going. Halt is possibly the key word that unlocks it for you.
    Just my half cent.. Just guess.

    • Quick add on. IMO only. I guess you have to nail down WWWH or
      stay home. Besides being in tight focus with a word in the line.
      Begin it where warm waters halt. Look at the big picture of just that line.
      That could have been all he was implying. IMO of course nobody knows
      but FF. It seems a key type word would do no good else where in the poem.
      Nail it down with spikes. Just kidding. IMO we have to figure out what he
      means by Halt. focus on that word, nail down that word, look at the big
      picture related to that word. Can you use it lots of places North of Santa Fe.
      Enough addiction to TTOTC for a time for me. It is too dangerous to search
      in Snow anywhere. Keep trying to figure out that line all winter. Because
      without it FF said you have nothing. Like myself. IMO..
      I honestly believe it is real and will be there waiting for you when you get there.. I thought FF used what was available there for the poem.
      My best guess is it is 2 places that put you BOTG. with a direction.
      That is All. And am still clueless at the same time. or Bananas.
      One day a lucky searcher with open that box up…
      Summer 2019…

  28. Hi markt, Halt, is tangible, and warm waters are subjective. I like halt. I don’t know about trains though, trains were pretty popular early on in the chase.

    • Yeah. You would guess a key word would be in the First clue sentence.
      As in Begin it where warm waters halt. A junction is a confluence of
      train lines I guess. like the 2 warm waters at Madison junction. But
      how to relate waters to halt. I don’t know. not related to your post.
      I just saw a beer can tree. cans tied to strings in a tree with a sign that
      said beer can tree. On the other far side. If Gary Larson could do one
      more cartoon. FF up a tree with a group of up right bears with flashlights and
      maps asking him questions. How do I know if I am at the correct warm waters halt. Who’s home do I put in below. I know its Larry’s home isn’t it. How far
      is too far. I can’t think of anything helpful to anyone. I think I will go back to my daily things. Give it a rest for a few weeks would be good for me.
      On the other hand that is a mean looking saber tooth. Prehistoric the Rockies
      where a warm water swamp. More rabbit holes. Best of Luck.

  29. This is pretty cool.
    This is a screenshot of another app I am working on for the chase (see link). The app produces a “heat map”

    there are two interesting things going on,
    1) the resulting heat map looks completely different depending on each person’s ideas set into the app.
    2) the resulting heat map would point precisely to the TC, if a person’s ideas matched with what ff has interpreted, even if a clue’s answer did not have a geographical feature from known sources, as long as the person has also defined geographical features themselves that matched their ideas.


  30. The first time I read TTOTC, I completely skipped My War For Me. I’m not really into war stories, cause they are sad and I’d rather not think about peope dying. Though I am grateful that there are people willing to defend our country and our lives. So, there. I admitted my insecurity about war, and I’m happy to say I have now read My War For Me dozens and dozens of times and have come to appreciate those who fight to protect our country and what we stand for.

    My newest solve has given me a different perspective on what My War For Me is really saying, aside from the surface story which is all I saw the first many times I read it. I see different hints in this story now.

    “We stop when the light is red and pay the gas bill when it is due”

    “Strangers move in and out of our lives, only to punctuate the moment with something useful, like a waiter or the paper boy.”

    Interesting that FF would mention that the paperboy might be among the useful punctuations in our lives. And, interesting that he used the term punctuation. Personally, I think he could have used the word periods since those IMO are more important than other forms of punctuation in the correct solve. But, the paperboy is significant and I’m glad I can see that now. I’m also certainly glad that Forrest only covered up Philadelphia with his thumb. It is a good reminder that if we aren’t careful with our choices, we could end up damaging this planet that we are supposed to be looking after.

    Having read FF’s My War For Me again today, I feel like answering some of his questions.

    Can we pour all of the non-physical thoughts and happenings into one cohesive boiling pot that will give us something useful? I think we can. We better be careful to watch the temperature so as not to overcook it. But, the answer is yes.

    “Could some subliminal gene perhaps be the answer to all that we cannot see but know is there?” Again, the answer is Yes! We do not have to see it to know that it is there. “The ground knows and the tall grass knows.” We can know also, but not because we see, but because we see the results of the lives of others around us and they see the results of ours.

    FF said, “If I cannot enrich those with whom I interact each day and cause them to be better for having passed their view, then I have wasted my turn.” He admits that the try must be solid. I agree.

    I believe it is this very idea that caused FF to write the story Teachers With Ropes. Forrest said, he didn’t know much about the art business. I think he knew something more important than the business of art. What he knew is that we can’t actually affect anyone’s life unless we can touch it, no matter how briefly. Some people come into our lives and stay a while. Other’s only brush us on the street or as we rush by them. But, when we touch the life of someone else, we change them hopefully for the better. And, they change us, or is it that we change together?

    There is so much in the story of Teachers with Ropes. It is really about learning to interact with others. I didn’t see that at first. It doesn’t matter what the object of art is. It could be a bronze, or a painting of George Washington. That isn’t what is important. What is important is that we touch and connect and become part of something greater than ourselves. Now I understand why the children were instructed to touch and then close their eyes. It all makes sense now. Touching and closing your eyes is a different kind of bonding than you get from just looking.

    I’m glad FF scattered Olga’s ashes where the chamisa and mountain laurels were blooming. I can picture her connected again with her father sipping that green tea. Forrest really knew what he was doing.

    So I think that the stories are starting to make more sense for me, now that I’ve read them well over a hundred times. I think I now understand why FF said, “I feel my life has been a rough draft of the place just ahead where the past will come alive again and all of my experiences and friends through the years will meet me at the great banquet table of history.”

    • ty for sharing your thoughts i think cold and in the wood is the bronze and wood box have a good night jus my two cents

    • Hi flutterby
      I think I read that story about 5 times before I got it two .The part about Shakespeare did it for me.I kept going over Every thing.once you get on Fenns wave you can ride it to end.I do not want to say more.

  31. This is not a response to any particular posting(s) on any particular blog(s), but may be more like an example of out-of-the-box thinking. Even though lots of things in this treasure hunt may seem to be related, not many of them appear to support a good solve in any noticeable
    manner. So this may ammount to almost nothing, other than appearing (to some) to be a tease.

    There used to be a popular song by Jim Croce, about Leroy Brown. Since FF talked about
    French soldiers, I remembered that “Le Roi” in French means “The king”. I don’t like to assume, but it makes some sense to me that maybe the place he would live could relate to the idea of “home of Brown”. And I’m speaking for myself, not as a spokesman for anyone else. All in my opinion

    • Reminds me a bit of an idea I had a few years back for HoB. Thinking that Forrest had probably heard James Brown during his tour I was thinking that the godfather of soul might be the Brown being referred to. There’s a put in/take out for rafts on the Rio Grande called Souse Hole. It’s easy to play with those words to get House of Soul, hence James Brown’s home. All of the solutions I generated with that as a clue led me south of Santa Fe, so I gave up on it. Since then the Rio Grande was declared off limits, which is just another nail in that coffin.

  32. if i remember correctly, Dodo bird pointed out the lacking imagination on his thread about a side trip.

    i think maybe.

  33. When Wimpy burgers were a nickle. In the thirties they were buffalo nickles, with an Indian head on one side, and a buffalo on the other. Not far from Denver, is Buffalo creek camp ground, on Redskin creek.

    • Redskin creek enters Buffalo creek, below Gas house trail head. Elevation 7400′. Gas house, Brown gas?

  34. imo – if wwwh is below hob – and the water from the creek is flowing down from hob – to the bottom where wwwh is – to me hob is higher in elevation then wwwh – so in stead of the poem reading – take it in the canyon down to hob – shouldn’t it read take it in the canyon up to home of brown- so to me it means take it in – the canyon down which means take it in at the bottom of the canyon – where wwwh is to hob

    • When I was in Cody, Colter’s Hell as my WWWH at the time, and my solve was just inside Yellowstone NP, Cody I saw it that way as well that it could mean start at the bottom. Though granted I technically didn’t as the canyon was just below Cody’s main level at Colter’s hell.

    • Frank,

      From what I have seen in my search area, hoB is above wwwh in elavation. But you take the canyon down to the “put in” place and at that point you are still below hoB in elevation. At the put in point you also increase in elevation when you go to npuyc and creek continues up (creek comes from the top of the mountain range). The heavy loads & water high you also keep increasing in elevation at both points too.
      Frank not sure your search area, but this is how mine works out.

      Good luck,

      • Bur I agree with what you say except that I think that the creek stops at hob because of this body of water that why it says no paddle up your creek it stops there and from there you go north where the rest of the clues are good luck to you too—– frank

      • Hey Bur !! I just revisited ttotc recently, may go to Montana this summer. What about

      • Bur;

        Sorry, I missed your post this AM. Didn’t see it until now.

        Your spot sounds a lot like mine. Not sure about your npuyc spot – mine is underground between wwwh and HLnWH/general blaze area.

        Good luck this spring – JDA

  35. if you start at the bottom of the canyon at wwwh and go east to hob that would put hob below wwwh
    but if you turn west from the bottom of the canyon to hob that would put wwwh below home of brown jmo

  36. What is going on with the computers? A few days after Flutterby’s post on Jan. 13 I tried to reply, twice, but was blocked by the cyber gods. I asked Dal if I was in suspension… I wasn’t. So today, I rewrote that post (about Olives & First Grade) and put it further down the thread as a reply in a different Flutterby post………. and it was blocked too,… BUT… a first draft of my earlier post was immediately attached to the Flutterby post of the 13th. !!! Lesson 1: don’t compose drafts on the ” Reply” screen, and, Lesson 2. well, I haven’t figure that one out yet .

    …. but I am putting my reply about the Olives below … just to see where it goes….

    Flutterby, somewhere way up thread you asked about those First Grade olives… I thought about it a few days, then tried to reply but the cyber gods blocked me, so i’ll answer here…

    Unlike other’s replies, I don’t read the olives as anything specific to the Christian religion … but one can hardly miss the waving arm of John Charles with the jar of olives as anything but a ‘Peace Branch’. The twist is that it is NOT an offer of peace but an accusation, act of hostility, a threat by an angry son of a bad mother.

    Likewise, the Ora Mae character seems born of resentment & blame as well.

    What is that all about?

    IMO, First Grade is a profoundly clever and complex bit of writing. The Olives-in-your-face & the one-pony-show foreshadow other themes in the book about justice, broken promises, peace, etc.

    Green are the unripe olives.
    Maybe we’re all the axman.

    • Hello OS2. The things you’ve mentioned, could they be a subtle way of Mr. Fenn mentioning the “switch” again?

      • What ‘switch’ are you talking about pdenver? I think TTOTC could be called Three Treasure Hunts of Fenn. …his memoirs, his philosophy, and the Chase. His marvelous writing often hits all three in a precious few words. Hemingway’s ‘iceberg style’ is warm puddle compared to Fenn’s.

        • Hello OS2. He was “switched” by his father for doing wrong and the switch/change of the books he mentioned in “Important Literature” are a couple which caught my attention.

          • Hello backat’cha pdenver…. about switching

            In the Preface FF wrote: “Keep in mind that the temperament of the country was different in the 1930’s.” … but in My War he shows us that the in the geography of mankind, the temperament (human nature) hasn’t changed much.

            In FIRST GRADE, he begins the message by guising it at a green olive level, but it’s really about adult stuff. Forrest the Fox, is dressing as the hound in this story.

            The important switchings in TTOTC are not about “misdeeds made in adolescence” but about a “threshold moment”, plus some “melded sums” (like Philly and the Waterfall). I believe all religions have ritualized the switch in some kind of coming-of-age ceremony; though in my experience, it is not so much a teen moment as a lifelong quest.

            Its why the first sentence in Biddies is affirmed just before the banquet at the end, and may be the answer in stanza 5.

            So, with all that and more out of the way, and the actual memoirs… is what’s left the hints to the poem & finding the bronze box?

            This is has been a lot of fun for me & my armchair. Thanks FF and fellow navigators.

          • Hello OS2. The past few days I’ve been trying to think of the stories and things that seem to repeat itself, which I felt “switch” was one of them. Trying to put those thoughts, along with the poem, and a map seems to have my imagination going a bit crazy. This morning I thought I understood, but not much now.

  37. If a searcher knew all 9 clues, could they still find the chest?

    If a searcher knew the solve to the poem, could they find the chest?

    How can a searcher leave their home and be totally confident in their solve when some of the clues are not solved, when those clues need BotG?

    How can a searcher follow the 9 clues, when they don’t know what all the 9 clues are beforehand?

    How can a searcher find the spot the chest is at if the info to solve for wwwh, hoB, and the blaze is not out there, or is not given by Fenn?

    He made two trips from his vehicle, but, he rented a car. His vehicle was at home, the rental is not his, so, is he saying he made two trips from Santa Fe, from his vehicle? Or did he end up buying the rental car?

    If a prior clue is needed to solve a clue, then how can you solve the first clue?

    If you will only know the first clue when you have the chest, how can you know any of the clues if a prior clue would be needed?

    How can the first clue be solved with just line number 5, when f has never given the answer to it in a subtle way?

    If it’s Summer when looking for the chest, why will your effort be worth the cold? What elevation is considered cold in the Summer time?

    Cold- any temperature not exceeding 46 degrees F. Would this be where wwh?

    So many more questions for the, “solve all the clues”, solvers. When you think about it, with the time that has lapsed, it seems that those solves are the wrong approach. Time will tell.

    • PI ” your effort will be worth the cold” translation: you are 42 lbs. more thee I see . reaction?

      • IDK PI I could be overreaching.Also troubling is 4 miles from my Put In to my Blaze. 5 hours for four trips.Probably a stretch .

        • Actually Hank, my first clue to the spot is 5 miles one way. So not out of the question. We have an “ATF” to back us up.
          Poem: “Not far but too far to walk”.
          ATF: “A polite-like email from Kristie, who admits to being a desk person, prompts me to say that if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you’re walking too far. F”
          It’s not far that we have to walk, it’s “too far”, and, your walking “too far” if you are walking “long distances”. So we have a “long distance” to walk.

    • Poison’

      Long post, but I will give it a shot:
      Q) If a searcher knew all 9 clues, could they still find the chest?
      A) “Still find the chest? Makes no sense. If a searcher knows all 9 clues, yes, they can find the chest.

      Q) If a searcher knew the solve to the poem, could they find the chest?
      A) for me, the solve to the poem is solving the 9 clues.

      Q) How can a searcher leave their home and be totally confident in their solve when some of the clues are not solved, when those clues need BotG?
      A) your opinion that some of the clues are not solved, and can only be solved with BotG.

      Q) How can a searcher follow the 9 clues, when they don’t know what all the 9 clues are beforehand?
      A) Again, your opinion that all nine clues can not be solved at home.

      Q) How can a searcher find the spot the chest is at if the info to solve for wwwh, hoB, and the blaze is not out there, or is not given by Fenn?
      A) Again, I see all clues as solvable including WWWH,hoB and blaze.

      Q) He made two trips from his vehicle, but, he rented a car. His vehicle was at home, the rental is not his, so, is he saying he made two trips from Santa Fe, from his vehicle? Or did he end up buying the rental car?
      A) Instead of His vehicle, what do you want him to say? – “The” vehicle. To me you are putting too much emphasis on the pronoun “his”

      Q) If a prior clue is needed to solve a clue, then how can you solve the first clue?
      A prior clue is not needed to solve wwwh, but INFORMATION from Stanza #5 IS needed (in the wood).

      Q) If you will only know the first clue when you have the chest, how can you know any of the clues if a prior clue would be needed?
      A) You will KNOW what wwwh is, but finding the chest will be the proof that what you LNOW is correct.

      Q) How can the first clue be solved with just line number 5, when f has never given the answer to it in a subtle way?
      A) What do you mean by a “subtle way”? He has in a “subtle way – in the wood.

      Q) If it’s Summer when looking for the chest, why will your effort be worth the cold? What elevation is considered cold in the Summer time?
      A) Elevation may not be the answer. How about direction, a place on the north side of a knoll, one that never gets direct sunshine.

      Q) Cold- any temperature not exceeding 46 degrees F. Would this be where wwh?
      A) If warm is comfortable, cold is not comfortable – I do not think that it relates to a particular temperature.

      So many more questions for the, “solve all the clues”, solvers. When you think about it, with the time that has lapsed, it seems that those solves are the wrong approach. Time will tell.

      A) – as you say. “Time will tell.” JMO – JDA

      • Good job, JDA, But, of course, I have my disagrees.
        I will give you the first 4, only because you are right, it’s my opinion. Number 5 is a tough one for you because of the ATF.
        “You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh, and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
        No I don’t madam, sorry. F
        Number 6 is sketchy, no big deal though.
        Number 7 I have to concede, because if that is how you solve, I won’t argue, but, it looks like you are using information later on in the poem to solve an earlier clue. If you are reading the poem, at line 5 is when you would arrive at wwwh. Of course, you will say that there are layers in the poem, so that’s fine, but working ahead to solve what’s back seems to be out of the scope. So that answer is a little iffy.
        Number 8, not that important, but goes to the confidence issue.
        Now number 9. What a coincidence. You just caught yourself. Please see the ATF above. As you now can see, the answer to wwwh is not out there in a subtle way. And don’t give me that, “he’s talking about the book”, BS. The poem is in the book. You have just admitted that you solved wwwh in a ‘subtle” way from the 5th stanza. F’s own words, basically, impossible, can’t be done. He has not given the answer to it. This has been what I’ve been trying to tell you JDA. It also holds true for the blaze. Now I know you will try to come back with an answer for me, but truth be told, there is no answer. I only keep referencing it because it needs to be addressed. It’s a strong statement for the clue solvers. One that goes against them. The only answer is to say that it is done in an ‘un-subtle” way, which we all can see is not true.
        Number 10, possible. Wherever it is, it’s cold in the Summer time.
        Number 11, I see that an “F” is at the end of the question. It should not be there. F has never said this statement, so just a typo. Wanted to clear that up. Anyway, I just posted that because I’ve seen it in research. Cold is considered any temp not to exceed 46 degrees F. ohh wait, that is why I put an “F”, lol, (best Homer voice), Doh…
        I was trying to give a hint that maybe the start place is at 46 degrees latitude. Even though, IMO, the first clue cannot be solved, it can be learned.
        Anyway JDA, number 9 needs some attention, other then that, thanks for the replies.

        • The first clue can be solved through learning. The first clue *has to be solved* you said “could not be solved.

          • poisonivey,

            If the first clue, wwwh has no answer and you have to learn. Well when you learn then you can find the answer and solve the first clue. If the first clue has no answer, because of the ATF, I wish you good luck and I hope you can win at canasta.

        • Well PI, I think we did pretty good, considering that our approaches are at odds with each other.

          #9 – Q) How can the first clue be solved with just line number 5, when f has never given the answer to it in a subtle way?
          A) What do you mean by a “subtle way”? He has in a “subtle way – in the wood.

          Sorry, can’t change that one, it is the basis of getting me started at the correct wwwh, and I will never change that.

          Have a GREAT winter charlie – JDA

          • I know you won’t change JDA, but I have to direct that ATF to you. In at least to try to attempt to get you to have something to think about this Winter. That ATF is a bummer for the clue to clue searchers. When those searchers police their own solves, it is that ATF that creates doubt in their solve. And it’s tough to look passed. Maybe there is a way around it, IDK, since you already have a solve, it’s something to look into this Winter. Always, good luck JDA.

        • #10 – If water originates high up on a mountain, at either a glacier or just an accumulation of snow, and then goes underground, and emerges near where Indulgence is secreted, the waters will be quite cold. Forrest said that the TC is wet, so if you have to search in the cold water area for Indulgence – Your effort will be worth the cold. jmo – JDA

          • Possible, but CharlieM brought up a good point awhile back when he said, (paraphrasing), how do you know those are the same waters? (in reference to wwwh). But, my solve kind of hits on your scenario. You know my area, the snow off of Mt. Haggin fills a lake and onward down through the gulch, into and passed town. So I get what you are saying. You are right, cold water in that sense could go down to 5000 feet, and Summer time is when snow would be melting. So I concede, the cold in Summer could be anywhere. As long as the chest is not underwater, right?:)

          • re – are they the same waters? Does it matter?
            Let’s say that my wwwh spot has a flow rate of 1 gallon/hr. Let’s call it “WWWH”

            Let’s say that there is another underground rivulet that also has a 1 gallon/hr flow rate. Let’s call it “Pond.” The two rivulets join or converge under-ground.

            Let’s now add a third from a glacier high above, and it’s flow rate is 2 gal/hr and we can call it “Glacier”

            All three have merged (converged) or “halted” under-ground – I say “Halted” because we will no longer call the new rivulet – “WWWH”, “Pond” or “Glacier”

            These three rivulets emerge at a place I call “Water High” – so let’s now call it “Water High”. It has a combined flow rate of 4 Gal/hr. – It is the same WWWH, but with a bit more horsepower. It has a new name (WH) but so what? – JMO – JDA

    • poisonivey wrote: “How can a searcher leave their home and be totally confident in their solve … when those clues need BotG?”
      A few clues are meant for boots on the ground. But your implication is correct that searcher would have little or no confidence in their location theory if all but the first one or two clues must wait until searcher is at WWH.

      Seeker has long maintained that almost all of the 9 clues must be searched AFTER having arrived at WWH. To which I totally disagree, partly because of what you imply in your question.

      Having the “confidence” to justify a lengthy and expensive trip to the Rockies, searcher would need to have solved most (though not necessarily all) of the clues FROM HOME, using the “right map”.

      I’m going to stop here because I expect Dal will close this incarnation of Odds ‘n Ends soon. If so, perhaps your questions can be copied to the next Odds n Ends.

      Ken (in Texas)

      • I hear you Ken. It’s kind of what leads me to think that solving the clues is not the same as solving the poem. Some clues would have to be solved, but something else, IMO, is what gives a searcher the confidence to take a trip and look for the chest. I’m in the boat of that something else is solving the poem and getting a spot rather then trying to solve clues that we only know of two.

      • Ken {TX} ~’Seeker has long maintained that almost all of the 9 clues must be searched AFTER having arrived at WWH.’

        That’s not entirely true. LOL Goofy and I had many debates over this. Some of my theories extended through time, others extended from one point to a far point with all points only describing a huge landscape to a single place.
        However, as of relatively recent, I think the poem could be designed as the need to figure out WWH and the clues revolve around it in such as way that we can’t ‘know’ those clue’s references until on sight.
        { Which Goofy had stated something to similar }

        The trick to this whole thing might be about why fenn chose WWH as the place to start, rather than, ‘just a place to start.’
        fenn’s two comments [ paraphrasing ] You need to ‘know’ where to start -and- you need to start at the ‘beginning’… seems simple enough; just locate WWH, right? Then fenn adds; we need to “learn” WWH.
        Does understanding what WWH is, does, why it is even there etc. need to be known? And if so, how would that effect the remaining clues?
        It might be; once the location of WWH is discovered [on a map], we might need to understand exactly what we are seeing and why… before we can continue with what the other clues actually represent. The question is simple; Can that be done beforehand, or only noticeable on site? I’m, as of late, leaning toward the latter. An observational vs. a point to point only search.

        IMO, the point to point only method could allow a searcher to discover a later clue and short cut the poem’s clue. Something we have been told; shouldn’t be able to be done. Looking for later clue [ before nailing down the clue ] is a folly.

        • Simple question for you Seeker. If you have not figured/learned wwwh and nailed it down… how can you proceed with ANY kind of theory as to how the remaining clues play out? Discovering wwwh for certain is probably the only way there will be success in this hunt.

          • Ken,

            It seems to me from the posts in the past are worried about clues after wwwn. Your correct, if one does not know where to begin anything else is purely speculation. One can not even begin to determine how the following clues fold out after wwwh or even to determine the lay of the land geographically.

            I have asked Seeker if he has a solution or if he is arm chairing. He has said he doesn’t know wwwh and that its Seeker 0 FF 9. So what he says in his posts are wild guesses and wild dart throws. Although some of his commentary’s do have some good reasoning, they are still speculation. He is fun to debate at times.

          • I get what you’e saying, ken… yet the simple idea as been; all that is needed is to figure out what the clue reference is [ call it a lake ] and find the location of that particular lake… then simply move on to the hopeful next clue.
            Why, needs asking at this point;
            Why this lake out of the many-?- line of thinking.
            Why a lake at all? [ for the example only ]
            Why did fenn choose this as a clue and not something else?… which might be the biggest/most important question to ask. { and might not be understood until on site }
            What does knowledge of geography [comprehensively] have to do with the clue we are told we need or don’t bother even going to search.
            IF… a later clue could be solved at home, correctly and without WWH [ or even with it] why is this idea of tell all, if you don’t have the first clue you have nothing, repeated over and over.

            OK here’s a thought. there’s a Q&A [ in part, I’m sure you know of it ] that said; If you know hoB why would you be concerned about WWH? { reverse engineering }.
            I think fenn’s question in is answer might be intended to say; You couldn’t “know” hoB without the first clue… if you could, fill the car and get going.

            The same can be said for fenn comment; If you know what hoB is you’d go right to the chest. ‘Assuming’ hoB is clue 4ish, Not only does it skip clue 1, but clue 2 and 3… right?

            If we are to think that fenn is on the up and up about WWH is needed or we have “nothing”… then can we truly understand the next clues?… probably not or the poem would seemed flawed if we can… and by fenn’s many comments about needing to have the first clue.

            We still have to go back the the searchers [ regardless of how many ] who indicate the correct “reference” of what WWH is, but still didn’t know they did [ by fenn’s account ] because [ ** think about this ** ]… they went by the remaining clues. Came within a few hundred feet from the chest/hide. Told fenn their process and movements.
            ALL [ as far as we can tell ] “Left the poem” and ALL [ as far as we can tell ] did so at the first two clues.

            Doesn’t it seem reasonable that many who had been on site, had the first clue or two, would have had a full solve prior in their minds? And not one of those ‘solves’ lead to a correct later clue? [ if they as a correct later… lets say they had hoB for example ] yet was unable to finish the challenge from that point, or any possible later clue, that could have been correctly deciphered … even if they got to that point out of order of prior clues?

            We fall back on the same old question;
            Why didn’t they know?
            Why couldn’t a later clue be pickup and followed from that point?
            How could folks go by other clue and not put two and two together?
            AND, why would fenn himself follow the clues… and not skip over one or two, but more importantly start where we are told to, and not at any later, as some searchers say they can … [example start at hoB, a creek, any other clue]

            The more ya think about it; everything revolves around being at WWH.
            Just figuring out what the references is, does seem to be enough… and yes, I think it will end up being something to do with the “observing and planning” we are suggested about when solving the challenge, right from the get go.

            You said; ‘Discovering wwwh for certain is probably the only way there will be success in this hunt.’
            Well, that has been done… and all have failed in the same spot/place/point. And, some may have 1/2 the poem deciphered references… and still there’s been no discovery, we know of.

            What does that really say to you?…
            Deciphered first clue’s “reference” and location. Deciphered second clue and same location. Possible four clues deciphered [ but we know nothing else about being on site or not with this comment ] while all seem to “leave the poem” at the same clue.
            What aren’t the seeing? observing? planning for?
            fenn said this was something he actually “planned” and took his time and effort to get it just right… and still he ‘seemingly’ followed his own created clues. Did he need to plan the “physical task” of hiding the chest because of the clues? Did he need to observe as we are told… LOL… if so, then is seems there is a ‘need’ to be on site… and that need might be how we actually understand the other clues and not walk right by everything else.
            What is being missed, right at WWH?

            In theory…

          • Seeker,

            The first thing that comes to mind is that the first 2 clues have been solved but did not recognize the hoB and left the poem. The other that I can think of some have gone as far to find the hoB, but didn’t know how far below the hoB was.

            Folks have solved the clues before the blaze, but couldn’t find the blaze and walked right on by the tc in doing so. If they had found the blaze, they may have not recognized the later clue (s).

            Those examples I gave may be the reasons why some can’t get past the first two clues and why some have been within 200 ft of the tc. Something to think about. Also the clues after the hoB does not mean the rest of the clues are in the same nearby area.

            If you know hoB why would you be concerned about WWH? The simple answer is, if you are sure about wwwh and have gotten to the hoB, why worry about it, its gotten you to the hoB. This is also with clues you’ve solved, why worry about the previous clues that got you where you are? That is providing one is correct, if you’re not go back to the first clue and start over. The only way one would know is if they found the tc.

            Seeker, I think you are over complicating things and not fully reasoning what may be. The only way to understand what F had said about anything related to the poem is to solve the poem.

            *Let’s just say* that my solution does go along with what F has said and I can see why some have left the poem especially with the hoB, because its easy to see that there are two ways to go, 1 way you can easily leave the poem. The other about walking right on by the tc is clear as to seeing why this is possible.

            Let me ask you, can you solve the poem without the ATF or Q&A’s only using the poem and a good map? If the answer is yes, then why lean on those Q&A and ATF’s as hard as you do? Didn’t F say to simplify a couple of times? I would pay more attention to simplify and just marry the poem to a map.

            Just Say’n

          • I was also hoping charlie(poisenivy) would chime in and say ah ha! that’s because you can’t solve the first clue. I think that premise is balderdash…otherwise there would be no point in any of this. Fenn has always affirmed the fact that if you don’t figure out the first clue…you have nothing, and stay home. That in itself affirms that the first clue can be figured out.. along with all his comments about folks figuring it(first clue) out.
            Seeker, your questions all have been chewed on for years. The reverse engineering(hob) Q I believe was answered just how he wanted it to be…just vague enough to keep folks guessing, but yeah, I think it was meant to mean that the person had gotten there(hob) by figuring out wwh…makes sense. Your next part is why I call it a riddle… until the first clue is nailed…you ain’t got nuthin’. Just like the old Karl Malden ads…Don’t leave home without it. Perhaps you are prematurely lumping the first clue, second clue solvers into *poem leavers*. We actually have very little hard data on that subject other than that one comment…and of course the massive failure rate.
            The rest of your post revolves around the crux of the dilemma. WTF went wrong when those folks were so close at the second clue? My answer is a simple one… I believe they had not solved the entire riddle…and their approach was way off. Heck…even lil’ Indie can figure the first two clues… from home.

          • Ken,

            We differ with what folks may have done.. and we should.. the data is limited only to the point we can’t say ‘factual’
            However, if we don’t belittle what we do know by attempting to force ideas that only work for a solve we hope is correct, the idea is { imo to be politically correct } would involve folks leaving the location they started at, in the hope to fill in the blanks or had a predetermine course to literally ‘follow’ physically.
            By doing so… I think fails to understand that this very well could be a visual depiction of the location of the chest.
            With that said; should the reference of WWH be relatively small in size, this concept might not work [example anything under a 75 sq ft area, line of thinking.]
            Fenn said this challenge was one thing he really planned. Tells us we should plan as well, and observe. While planning can be thought of prior, or at least have a concept of what needs to be ‘done’ on site… observation can only be done in the field. This might be the down fall of the 3rd and 4th clues for anyone who was on site.

            Study the poem… check, who hasn’t, right?
            Analyze it and the book… check.
            Scrutinize maps and GE.. check and check.
            Fact check geography, learn more about it, etc… check
            Check and balance as much as we can with ATF’s… in most cases, check.

            Plan and observe??? This area of suggested things to do has seemed very limited… at least from the many solves and ideas we have read about.
            Then fenn finally states what many have asked… did he follow the clues or made a short cut etc.
            Why would he or should have IF he didn’t need to do exactly as we are told; because there is no other way he knows of. IMO, that means he had to plan as well… but for what? He had to observe..or at the very least.. make sure all was correct in his recalling of his special place. But what is he observing? and when does it start?

            With what we have been explained about the first two clues, the remaining seven clues, distance to the chest… it all seems to relate to “where” a searcher needs to be at… at WWH.

          • “Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse-engineer where warm waters halt? If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take.”

            To me, this question and answer has several interesting aspects to it. To my way of thinking, wwwh and hoB are likely closely related to one another. They go hand in hand. Maybe you can get to hoB only by correctly finding / figuring out wwwh. That way, if you are sure about the location of hoB you wouldn’t be concerned about wwwh. The use of “reverse- engineer” is also interesting. Fenn seems to imply that wwwh can be reverse engineered to find hoB. Reverse engineering is a process by which an object is deconstructed to reveal its design or architecture. So will breaking down the architecture of wwwh lead us to hoB?
            And if you are able to reverse engineer wwwh some searchers would throw in gas money for a percentage of the take? Not entirely clear what Forrest is suggesting with this part of the statement, but it does suggest that if you are at hoB, you are also near the treasure.

          • Sorry I was late to this party.
            Ken, I misspoke when I said solved as far as the first clue. It can be solved. It could be learned. It’s just trying to solve it on it’s own is impossible. IMO, the only way to solve the first clue is to solve the poem, find your spot, draw your path on a map, and where you start is wwwh. Having the start place is utmost important, remember, one way in one way out thinking. You start at the wrong place, you will be off coarse. One way in means that the canyon down is close, but you have to start at wwwh is anyway. No getting around it.
            When f says there is no answer to wwwh that he has given, it becomes the reason you cannot go after later clues. In fact, it’s impossible. Those later clues would be able to be solved first if there was a way to solve them. And if you take the stand of solving prior clues to solve a later clue, then you are stuck again at the first clue, there are no prior clues. The only thing I see, so I will say IMO, from all the info, ATF’s, Q&A’s, whatever, is that the poem solve is different then solving clues. And that solving the poem yields a spot. From that spot a path can be determined, and a start place. If you need a map to begin to start to solve the poem, forget it. Only need a map once you are done. We have to remember that this is almost impossible. Being able to solve all the clues would be easy, solving none of the clues impossible, solving some of the clues makes it almost impossible. If the clues are a way to solve, and all the clues could be solved, this would have been over with a long time ago. Like Seeker has said, a BotG observation will come to play, if you are trying to recognize clues. You can find the spot without solving some of the clues because that is what the poem does. You follow all the clues because there is no other way. Doesn’t mean you will know all the clues, might not, but you could still find the chest. I could find the chest without seeing the blaze, but I need to know where the blaze is. I could find the chest without knowing wwwh, but that’s folly, because I will be starting there anyway.

            Now hoB, I think is having to much attention. It may not be a clue. Put in may not be what most think it is. That line could be read from f’s point of view. In fact, that whole stanza.
            I begin at wwwh, I take it in the canyon down, I don’t walk far but I walk too far, I put the chest below the home of Brown. HoB could just be landscape at the chest. If you knew it, you would already know the start place, and the area the chest is in. One way in, you could possibly go to the chest area. Doesn’t mean you would find or anything. That line is the 8th line in the poem, are we suppose to think that we are already at the chest by the 8th line, when we started at the 5th line? HoB is to general of a statement to be a clue. It is something, but doesn’t get you any closer to the chest.

            Too much emphasis on trying to solve clues. We don’t know what a clue is to f. Something, like hints, would be needed to solve a clue. F has stated that the answer to some of the clues, the two we know of, is not given by him. I don’t see how f could say this but searchers believe they could solve them on their own. He said it can’t be done, but here we are talking about needing to solve for wwwh.

            Here’s my solve, basically. Do what the poem says, follow instructions, solve each line as many ways as possible, put it all together. Example: line 21- So (he ARE me) gives me “some” . Then ALL and L “is” TEN. So A=1, L=3, or A=7, L=1, or A=4, L=2. So the “some of all and l is ten”. Good= go od. So forget about the even value.
            It just happens that this line has letter values. It’s how the line is broken down by following the poem instructions. The whole poem is written this way. To mess with the poem in any way could screw up the placement of instructions. Basically, just do what the poem tells you. So don’t need a map to solve the poem or clues, or anything. Just need poem to solve. That solve gives a spot, and etc…etc…etc…
            The clues get easier as you go. So the first clue would be the easiest. How is that possible if f has not given the answer to it? There are no prior clues, so can’t use clues to figure it out. But yet, it’s the easiest. When it comes down to it, the only important solvable clue is the last. So the spot the poem gives will get you through 8 clues. The 9th will get you the chest. That is why the first is the easiest, because the last is the tough one, the one to solve. Sorry sooo long. Thanks for getting through it…

  38. Yea , just don’t see the Chest going anywhere anytime soon . Oh wait, what colors my sunburnt skull holder. Stay tuned for act 3 scene 2. Must be all those red dirt roads special Silver queen corn. Why is the letter s in Silver capitalized? Let’s all ponder that for another 8 years !Geez !! all imo

    • I apologize for the rant ; too many espresso shots and Red Bull. Under pressure at the shoelace factory also . I Go now

  39. Upthread, seeker makes a case for his theory that most of the 9 clues are meant to be solved on-site beginning at WWWH. That’s tantamount to saying that the poem has 1, and only 1, clue >>> WWWH.

    So for the great expanse of land between Santa Fe and the Canadian border, seeker theorizes, we have just one clue to guide us. Yet …

    Once searcher has miraculously figured out this one spot in the Rockies, Forrest has given us 8 clues for an area that can be traversed by walking.

    To me that is absurd.

    Seeker justifies this theory by saying that Forrest wants searchers to experience nature and have a legit wilderness adventure, blah, blah, blah.

    If that theory works for you, go with it. It doesn’t work for me. And I’ll add this … while many searchers “claim” to know a lot about the field of Geography, I see a lot of, shall we say >>> room for additional geographic knowledge, relevant especially, and in particular, to understanding the geographic implications of why Forrest has nine clues, not just 2 or 3.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • he has said in the past the girl from India could only get the first two clues. That makes me wonder if the final 7 you have to be on site.

      • Sean wrote: “… he has said in the past …”
        Hi Sean … Forrest has said a lot of things in the past. But again, the poem takes precedence over his verbal comments, many of those comments being either ambiguous, even contradictory.

        It’s very common now for searchers to go outside the poem, to TTOTC, to the scrapbooks, and yes to his verbal comments, to try to find shortcuts around a poem that is infuriatingly opaque.

        But the number of clues in the poem is not consistent with a treasure hunt that has 7 or 8 clues designated for an area that can be traversed on foot while allowing just 1 or 2 clues for the vast expanse of the Rockies.

    • Ken {TX}

      You first implied that my theory works with only a single clue. I have suggested the theory works in a single ‘place’.
      No distances needed to travel between clues…

      Secondly; you talk about the area of the RM’s and claimed I implied we use only one clue to guide a searcher… where I have suggested we need to know of the ‘location’ of all the clues, first and foremost… even before we can decipher what a single clue’s reference could be.

      You mention walking/traversing/stomping out the clues… where I have suggested this is an observational task and it all wraps around the location of WWWH.

      You stated;~Seeker justifies this theory by saying that Forrest wants searchers to experience nature and have a legit wilderness adventure, blah, blah, blah…. ~ when I have basically stated the opposite. I think the poem was designed and word usages are being misunderstood by the readers to think it is a stomping mode only method, and that most if not all, the movement of a searcher revolves close to the first clue. The only distance to stomp, is to get to the location of the clues from where a searcher can enter the location.

      You rambled on about geography or lack of knowledge some might have… and said; ‘… relevant especially, and in particular, to understanding the geographic implications of why Forrest has nine clues, not just 2 or 3.’
      I’m not exactly sure were you’re going with this, however, fenn has stated he really didn’t know how many clues he had until he finished the poem, and while rewriting the poem over and over, the clues stayed ‘about’ same.

      Out of curiosity; is there a geographical reasoning you think fenn needed 9 clues-?- or did I misunderstand you comment?

      As to your ‘absurd’ comment… I think the same about great distances between clues that require alternative transportation.
      Not to get out into the wiles of nature, we should already be there when attempting to locate the hide. I just seen no reasoning that fenn would follow his created clues [which he stated he did] by driving them out… when he has stated; he walked from his car/parking spot to the hide; walked less than a few miles; did it twice; followed the clues using the same route; and accomplished the task in one afternoon.

      • Seeker … regardless of how you word it, your message remains the same >>> the only clue of importance is WWWH. Once there, searcher has the task of trying to put together 8 observational “clues” that describe this one location, or “place”.

        Since you don’t think this hunt is spread out over a very large area, why would searcher need so many clues?

        I propose that the reason you downplay clues 2 thru 8 is because you have never identified WWWH.

        You’re still stuck on the “little girl from India” comment and the “‘walked’ right by the remaining clues” comment. Both of those comments and many of Forrest’s other verbal comments are vague, ambiguous, and subject to contradiction and misinterpretation.

        Like most searchers you basically have given up on the poem, in my opinion, and are looking to FF’s verbal comments, for a shortcut.

        I have mentioned multiple times why I think geography is important in understanding why FF set out more than just 2 or 3 clues; go back to some of my earlier comments which went into detail on this point. Those comments are still here on this blog.

        I’m not antithetical to FF’s comments. A few of them are genuinely helpful, like this one (paraphrased) >>> everything you need to find the treasure is in the poem. He has said that many, many times. That comment is very clear. Many of his other comments are, shall we say, less clear.

        • Ken {TX}

          There are 9 clues in the poem, However, I never said we need to discover 9 ‘places.’ There are instructions in the poem that are clues.
          In this theory, as far as ‘places’ go;
          WWWH, a place.
          Canyon down, a place, that allows an instruction that involves NF,BTFTW.
          hoB a place, to see.
          Stanza 3 is all an observation between WWH and hoB, ending at HLnWH… which is at or part of WWH, and where you would be standing.
          That’s basically three place in all. At this point, the searcher should be aware they are at the blaze.

          Example; Standing on your front porch [represents WWH] Canyon down is the roadway, hoB is a house viewable from your porch IF standing in the correct stop to see it.
          Everything you see at this point [all of stanza 3] is in line with WWH and hoB, and only found, by being in the correct spot on your porch. By finding this spot, you have theoretically been wise and found the blaze.
          You have discovered the blaze… only know by the searcher who understands how the poem is read as.

          While this is all a theory of how to read the poem as possibly intended… should a searcher have spotted hoB or mapped hoB out from WWH, beforehand.. I bet the pot, they all would have gone to it.
          Because they still would want to physically “put in below” it, and attempt to physically find ~ NPFTM, the end of some where, a creek, and hopefully something that’s heavy and watery.
          They left the poem. They left because they thought ‘Follow’ means a physical movement only, and not as an understanding of the instructions. They left because they thought “take it in” meant a physical movement, and not the instructions to view what is there. They left because they needed to physically be below hoB, rather than, “put in” as looking down or below. So, in theory… “From there” ~ below hoB is the same canyon, viewed from WWH.. it’s NPFTM

          You can count the clues at this point if you like.

          But the gist is; finding the correct ‘viewing station, spot’ at WWH to locate hoB that places you at the blaze. If you can’t see all of stanza’s 3 references/depictions that should be in-between those to point, you’re in the wrong spot, and need to adjust your view. But only if you know ‘beforehand’ of the ‘process’ / ‘procedure’ you need to do.

          The idea is… ‘Nobody’ can not get closer because they are already there.
          Now you can say ~ I have given up on the poem, or stuck on Little Indy and other ATF’s or I’m not smart enough to know what WWH represent all day long…
          My point is; are we reading the poem as fenn intended?
          Ya’ll want this to be a grand stomping adventure, or sight seeing ‘drive’ over hills and over dales, hoping to locate places along that travel… a directional only solve.

          I say, this might be more about an instructional understanding of how fenn may have intended the poem to play out.
          LOL the thing is; the directional idea is, imo, exactly what fenn hoped everyone would do, not understanding the plain English wording in the poem [and intro to the poem]… having sweaty bodies all over the RM’s chasing a shadow.
          And, if an 80 yr old is not going down and up a canyon [twice]… I’m not gonna either.

  40. I thought that 8 clues gets you an exact spot and general direction. The blaze you will have to find for yourself. Wise and found. I imagined like hand carved in granite marking
    on a outcropping. Then you are probably standing on it. Could be as simple as 2 holes
    made in said rock. Something else that has been there since FF was young. And will
    be there for a lot longer. I thought the little girl from India could get to the third clue
    and that’s all. If it is not straight forward then he wasted his time. It will never be found.
    But if you solve his poem it will lead you to it. So I assume it is straight forward.
    Just a hard one. He knew the place and built the poem around it.
    Which leads to confusion in the poem. When it is solved it will make sense.
    Even with the ever changing nature the clues will still be there for a long time
    to come. And I think you can only do it in the summer time.
    Because right now it is under the snow. Jumping into others post how rude of me.
    I read Dal’s latest post and thought I would post once more. That was a good post.

  41. Has it occured to anyone else that just possibly the answer to clue one leads to the answer to clue two, and so on, until the poem meets the map? I can hear some of you saying that FF said people have figured the first clues walked right past the treasure. Forrest is a writer. He uses fjgurative language. A person can figuratively walk past an idea. I remain unconvinced that WWWH has to be on a map.

    • The occurrence has been speculated in the past here on this site.
      WWWH doesn’t have to be labeled on a map but I’m pretty sure it’s on a geographical map.

      • I think Jake is correct, since the “little girl from India” is able to figure out clue 1 and 2… (given only the poem and a map) it just about has to be imo.

    • Does clue one lead to clue two, and so on, is a very good question. My thought is that it helps us get to clue two. If clue one is related to in some way to clues past clue two then maybe the first clue finders got lucky and didn’t know the real reason for clue one. It doesn’t seem likely to me for them to get lucky and find WWWH. Clue three might be related to the first 2, if in fact TFTW is clue three, but I find it hard to believe that PIBTHOB is related in them to the first clue. This is the part of the problem the first two clue finders run into IMO. One has to be able to adjust, and by adjust I mean change their way of thinking on how to find remaining clues. Also, it may have to be done on site just to make it harder.

  42. Quick share: I finally read ‘The Codex’ by Douglas Preston and really enjoyed it! I couldn’t put it down, bought it on Thursday and finished last night. Good read and I’m hooked on Preston!

  43. Seeker, Since Dal still has me in moderation, I’m going to hit on a few posts in one shot. As Ken mentioned above, You’ve asked the same questions numerous times. So, I’ll ask you again, have you earnestly answered your own questions? If your answer is yes, and in so doing, you’ve concluded with your theory that all the clues are in one location. I’d think finding one singular solve location should be easier to come to, apposed to most searchers, as you say, stomping from point to point. Do you have a location in mind by now? Next, I’ll be paraphrasing some following comments. If I understand your comments, you say ” observation can only be done in the field. This might be the downfall of the 3rd + 4th clues for anyone who was on site.” Basically, isn’t that your theory (observation in one location.) So why have several failed being at the correct WWH observing or stomping around their chosen area without leaving, and not finding the correct hoB or blaze? Obviously no one has learned the correct meaning first, including lil Indy. Mr. Fenn has said, in theory all the clues except the last one can be solved from home. Next, you said ” I just see no reasoning that Fenn would follow his created clues, which then you emphasize [which he stated he did] by driving them out… you continue with Fenn walked from his car/parking spot twice in one afternoon. When has Mr. Fenn ever said, Begin it, imo (search) parked at WWWH? We shouldn’t straight jacket ourselves in assumptions based on varying ATF’s by Fenn, such as (went passed, walked past, left the poem, etc.) Sometimes we just need to hit the refresh button. IMO

    • Afana,

      Of course i’m attempting to find some reasoning for my questions. Although no conclusion can be sure until a theory is tested.
      With that said; I’m testing [in part] many theories with a check and balance of many ATF’s. You mentioned; fenn never said wwwh is at the place he parked [ in so many words ] I never said he did.
      If fact, I think he parked where he could, and hiked to the locations of the clues. That distance and time can only be estimated by what he has stated.
      When he added he followed the clues… it would seem fair and reasonable he started with clue one, as he said; the clues need to be followed in consecutive order, *there’s no other way he ‘knows’ of*
      The down fall of searchers at clues 3 and 4 has been mentioned by fenn [clues 3 and 4 seem to stump searchers].
      The lines “TIITCD, NF,BTFTW” have searchers looking for a distance to travel… I say it could be simply a distance of observation to locate HOB. The “take it in” seems to be saying, Look, observe… yet it also seems by the dozens, if not hundreds, of posted solves and ideas over the years, all are moving on to find hoB. I think it’s {hoB} a visual references that may need some serious imagination to find / see it.,, and seen from WWH.

      Of course, most of the clues have their own place/location… but in the theory [ added with the above explanation ] stanza 3 is explaining what is seen ‘drawing’ back to the viewer. Who by rights, should be at HLnWH… which I think is a second reference to WWWH, or part of it.
      Fenn comment about clues solved at home is theoretical, as he stated, and * not in practice *… which works for the observational theory. One must be on site to align the clues properly.,, even if all can be seen from GE or located on a map… the observational theory still works because it places the searcher in the correct spot needed for viewing the clues and has them [ in theory ] at the location of the blaze.
      Which I have never seen a post or posted solve explain this.

      All have searchers moving away from WWH… This could be why some have been so close to the chest [ and probably the blaze ] only never knew it… they went looking for later clues else where.

      They may have even seen hoB and left WWH to go to it.
      If this theory is correct… they would never find the blaze or the chest, yet they would have walked / went /stomped past all the clues and the chest.
      LOL they went into a canyon, or drove around a canyon, walked a creek or a few creeks, tried to find NPFTM, and attempted to locate HLnWH – they may even have stood at hoB, never realizing this all could be an observational solve. ~What fenn would see standing at the chest.
      So, the poem has done it’s job… it has 300,000 searchers all over the RM’s stomping out clues.

      Fenn warned us the ‘path’ [ which i believe are the clues ] will not be direct without certainty of the *location* *beforehand* – which it seems little Indy could do-
      The location is not so much, WWWH or the hide, but where all the clues are located at. [ and possibly why she can not get *closer* than the first two clues…] She, or anyone else is as close as they can be to the chest…without being on site.

      Stomping point to point allows anyone to start at a later clues IF they could solve it at home… yet we have been told that is a folly to try… why is that?
      LOL.. I mean, quite a few searchers say they start at hoB, right? They say WWH is only to find out where they need to search, and hoB is were they start from BOTG. IF THAT was remotely possible, why would all be confused with the later clues, being they are that far into a solve?

      That is what I’m looking for; Where fenn when alone in there. Looking for WWH first, without the location of the where they clues are at, is a dart toss. IMO the first clue is a combined element of all the clues. it’s a single location with all the clues connected [ contiguous; touching, adjoining as one place ] The kicker is figuring out where the location is, to figure out the correct WWH out of the many, and observe and plan for it.
      However, several have done just that, located the correct WWH, only they didn’t seem to know they did so. IMO, two things took place.
      They guessed their WWH, and left it looking for more clue references somewhere else.
      They may have not been *certain* of the “location” and might not have understood… this whole thing may take place at WWH. Observing and Imagination…

      Just curious, what do ya’ll “plan” for? What exactly are ya’ll “observing”?
      ~why can four clues be mentioned in order, yet fenn is uncertain to it all-?- Is he uncertain the searchers don’t know, or uncertain they don’t have the correct process to execute the challenge properly?

      All theoretical. Only a different reading / understanding of the poem, and how it may unfold.

      • IMO the first clue is a combined element of all the clues. it’s a single location with all the clues connected [ contiguous; touching, adjoining as one place ] The kicker is figuring out where the location is,

        the location is mountain vista, oil on canvas by oldrich farsky


        • BadgeR;

          I am not being critical. I am just asking a couple of questions.
          1) you said SB-182 at the end of your post. As far as I can tell, this SB does not mention the oil psinting. Am I missing something?
          2) What in the poem had led you to this painting?

          Just askin’ NOT criticizing – JDA

        • nice, BadgeR.
          i agree competely. the first stanza is the Buffalo Bill Center of the West.
          this is where he has gone alone and with treasures bold. his treasures bold are on display there with a placard showing Forrest and Peggy Fenn as the donators. also at the Buffalo Bill Center of the west is the Whitney gallery of western art. this is where your painting comes in.

          i think this be your kicker.
          in my opinion.

  44. The idea that the poem needs to be solved first, then married to a map, to me is absurd. IMO the poem is the written *directions* of a map. To have the right map one has to learn wwwh and know where it does halt and start from that place on a map. I am most certain for someone to move with confidence to the hiding spot of the tc, the clues must be found on a map.

    I believe it is not a simple task to find each clue on a map. It’s how one interprets what the poem is saying and marrying it to a map. Example: find the hoB and how far below is the put in place. Heck, below the hoB could mean feet, yards or miles. Some equate Brown as an animal, fish, or associated to a person, or a natural place. If one is working from a map then it most certainly is a place, one can’t see animals, fish or a person on a map and those usually aren’t seen on GE.

    Then one moves onto the next clue, “no place for the meek”, that in its self is not easy to determine. Heck, what makes things harder is what people see in their mind before they even start working on the clue. There is a lot of work to do to find places on a map linked to a clue, its not as simple to pull out a map and say yahoo its all right there. It takes more than a weekend to analyze each clue and marry it to a map.

    Some think viewing each clue or even one clue from wwh or other’s feel each clue must be done with botg. IMO you can do those methods which will take a very long time and much harder to find. IMO one can follow the clues from a map and only needs botg to retrieve the tc.
    The most important tools that are needed is the poem, map and the use of geography. F himself said those tools are needed. Not animals, fish or people, not even a structure are going to help find the tc.

    What Forrest has said in the past and present does help, but the rest I feel is to get people to think and analyze what is being said with a question and answered, so long it is related to finding the chest and not a topic related to anything else. The other that I see as well as F, that clues after wwwh are trying to be understood or found before they have the first clue, what a quagmire.

    If I were a betting man, [ I have done so in the past ], I would say that the location of the tc and the clues leading up to the tc will be through the use of a map married to the poem, arm chaired if you will, then botg to enjoy nature and the mountains as F intended and probably more than one trip because of not understanding a clue(s) and back out into the mountains again.

    Think analyze, study, marry the poem to a map, sounds simple but not. Maybe you’ve already have been within 200 ft, then again a thousand miles away.

    I’m done Ranting &
    Just Say’n

    • Very well said, CharlieM. And I agree with you. Beyond WWWH, each clue is the end of one vector and the beginning of the next. It’s a point to point treasure hunt.

      You said: “IMO the poem is the written *directions* of a map. To have the right map one has to learn wwwh and know where it does halt and start from that place on a map.”.

      Exactly. Only thing I would add is some imagination to figure out both WWWH and the rest of the clues.

    • Okay charlie, please tell everyone what the clues are. You cannot. Neither can I or anybody. How did you learn wwwh when f has not given the answer to it? It cannot be done. How can you marry clues to a map when you dont know what the clues are, and, dont have the answers to some of them. Like seeker said, if you could solve in this way, you could solve for later clues before early clues. A shortcut if you will. You say that solving the poem to find a spot is absurd. Then when f says , in regards to the first clue, “you have to find out – you have to learn where warm waters halt”, what do you think he is saying? We have to find out. That is how you learn where warm waters halt. The worse think f could have told us is there are 9 clues. Take the clue comment out of the equation. How would everyone try to find the chest. By solving the poem to find an “X”.
      Do the clues usually solve anything or is it a multitude of info? You could have clues, but to solve anything, you need other sources of info. If you only have some clues, and other clues that are questiona le or have no answe are, you cannot solve kverall. You can have a good guess, but that’s about it. How many inmates are innocent but in jail. Say 1 percent? With 1000000 prisoners, that is 10000 people. Is that because of just going with some clues or the whole overall picture?
      When you pull out a map to help solve, you leave the poem. He said, from the beginning, all you need is the poem. Why didn’t he say the poem and a map back then if that is what would be needed? F has never said that to find the chest all the clues must be solved. But he has said the poem solve is like placing an “x” on a map. That is all you need. If this map was needed to solve for the clues or thw end spot, f would have stated that from the start. To keep everything fair. Why say later that a map is needed. In fact, he never said it was needed. I think trying to solve for things that dont have an answer is absurd. Ridiculous. F has stated this, why ignore what the author has satated? All the clues do is let you know you are on the right path. In the chase, you wont know of a clue until you have the chest, that leaves confidence out the window. The only way to be confident is to know where you are going, travel that path, and observe certain clues on that path. Then, you will know the clue references from the poem. Then you can learn what f is saying.
      Seeker is right, any form of solving clues would lead to being able to solve for later clues first, and i’m right, IMO, that if you need prior clues, then what clue do you use prior to the first? Especially when there is no answer to that clue. If you could see all the clues from GE, does not seem that is very precise.
      I remember your first write up, it started with a guess of the first clue and no apparent poem solve. Does that really sound like the way to go? That is what trying to solve for clues does. Takes you away from the poem. That, xeep down, is all you need. Lose the map.

        • Poisonivey,

          One more point I need to add. You said, “How did you learn wwwh when f has not given the answer to it?
          If your waiting for answers from F, Good luck with that.
          If you do your homework you will know the answer, F isn’t going to tell you how, he wants us to think, analyze and learn.

          You can’t solve the poem without a map. Poem = directions, married to a map, each clue on a map. I’ll stick with that.

          Just Say’n

          Just Say’n

      • Poisonivey, Dal’s probably going to keep me in moderation after he reads my opinion. I’d say the same things to you face to face. You keep singing the same ole song. I don’t see that your assumptions are helpful to those of us that have spent 1000’s of hours learning to solve the 9 clues in the poem, which Fenn has stated there are. One CAN solve all nine clues and place them precisely on a map. One CAN solve hoB and reverse engineer WWWH. One CAN know beforehand and go with confidence. And yes, as Fenn has stated, you will not know for certain that your WWH was correct until you find the TC. I intend to put my “theory” to *practice* this Summer. I could answer yours and Seekers questions one by one but I won’t. Go back to the “drawing” board. No disrespect intended, I’m just tired of your negativity. JMO

        • solve the 9 clues in the poem, which Fenn has stated there are. One CAN solve all nine clues and place them precisely on a map. One CAN solve hoB and reverse engineer WWWH. One CAN know beforehand and go with confidence. And yes, as Fenn has stated, you will not know for certain that your WWH was correct until you find the TC.

          When have I said anything against these thoughts?

          One CAN solve hoB and reverse engineer WWWH
          That’s your opinion. I would like to see you “solve’ for something that has no answer. But I’m sure you have.

          One CAN solve all nine clues and place them precisely on a map.
          Again, your opinion. Only you can do that it seems.

          Go back to the “drawing” board.
          Been there, done that.

          your negativity.
          Again, your opinion. It’s not negative if it is correct. I only go by what f is saying, not my fault that some decide to ignore some of the things he says.

          I know this, if you solved wwwh, then we are in store for another write up that starts out guessing. Here you go, let’s see what part of this you ignore or tend to not understand:

          “You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh, and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
          No I don’t madam, sorry. F

          So, show me in an un-subtle way in the poem the answers to those references? JDA offered “in the wood” in a subtle way for wwwh. That would be wrong. So, please, show us all a different way. Is it negative to try to make people aware of this as they talk about trying to solve for wwwh? You have a wwwh, I would like to see you convince anybody where in the book you got the answer to it, and remember, it won’t be in a subtle way. I’m sorry this statement by f screws a lot of solves, but it should at least get you to realize. It’s not me that made the statement, it’s you, and others, that are not listening. (you cannot give an answer to the question, known, so, follow your own advise, back to the drawing board). No disrespect intended.
          If, you see the error in your ways, and try a different solve, is that me being negative.
          This is being negative and non helpful:
          You go ahead and rant, also just because you’ve been at it longer than I have, most certainly does not mean that you are better at it or know more. You’ve been at it years, how’s that working for you?

          By the way, I’m not stuck on my solve, there are others. What a display of arrogance!


          • Poison;

            You say: “JDA offered “in the wood” in a subtle way for wwwh. That would be wrong. ” You are making a statement of fact, not an opinion. So I will say, “Prove it!” Prove that I am wrong, or retract your “FACT”!

            I get a little tired of your pompous attitude of telling us that we are wrong, and yet YOU offer NO PROOF that YOU are right.

            I await your proof sir, or your retraction – I’m Pissed!

            I made an offer to you to take our differences off line, but then you said you are too busy. Not too busy to offer BS and unprovable comments on line, but too busy to communicate off line. – Just sayin – JDA

          • Poison;

            You say, “JDA offered “in the wood” in a subtle way for wwwh. That would be wrong.”

            As stated, you are stating a fact, NOT an opinion. If it is a fact that I am wrong, you should be able to prove it. So, I am calling you out – prove it, or retract your statement.

            You are so much as calling me a liar, and that is BS.

            Prove that I am wrong in my assertion that “In the wood” is a means of solving wwwh, or retract your post.

            I offered you the opportunity to take our differences off-line. Your response is that you are too busy – yet not too bust to post something that effectively calls me a liar. Nonsense – JDA

          • PI, Yesterday I said to Seeker “that we shouldn’t straight jacket ourselves in assumptions based on varying ATF’s by Fenn, such as (went past, walked past, left the poem, etc.)” These alone can be interpreted many ways, except for maybe (walked past). Your whole argument seems to be based on this one Q+A by BW. Keep in mind the 85/15%. In TTOTC pg. 133 1st line, “There are also other subtle clues sprinkled in the stories.” Since you need my help understanding, Mr. Fenn is answering BW’s question IMO, by saying the hoB, wwwh, and blaze are “hinted at” in the book, NO need for a more “subtle” way. He’s not giving us the “correct answers” to one or all. If so, there would be no point in the chase. Mr. Fenn has said, they’re there, if you can recognize them. Then you say “show me in an un-subtle way in the poem the answers to those references?” Why would I do that. Then you say “You have a wwwh, I would like to see you convince anybody where in the book you got the answer to it, and remember, it won’t be in a subtle way.” REALLY! It’s there, but you don’t recognize it. And unlike you, I don’t need to convince anybody. I won’t be bullied into giving you the answers you don’t have. Oh wait! you already have all the answers iyo. JMO

      • Poisonivey,

        I can completely disagree with your comment, “How did you learn wwwh when f has not given the answer to it? It cannot be done.” Forest did say over at MW, “I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several.”f I say, well it can be done!

        You also said, “How can you marry clues to a map when you don’t know what the clues are, and, don’t have the answers to some of them?” You are greatly assuming things, you have no idea what I have for clues. Just because I don’t out and say what the clues are referring to, doesn’t mean I don’t know.

        Then you go onto say, “Why didn’t he say the poem and a map back then if that is what would be needed?” F most certainly did, so here is another quote from F over on MW, “I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map. I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map. It seems like the longer one thinks about the search the more they complicate the problem.”f

        It seems that you haven’t done your research in regards to your statements above. I would also pay attention to the last line of the quote above, “It seems like the longer one thinks about the search the more they complicate the problem.”f Remember F says to “simplify” on Feb 4,2018.

        You start with the first clue, after you have solved it, you go onto the next clue and solve it. What you are telling me is that you haven’t solved the first clue, [several people have] therefore you have no answers to the remaining clues.

        Heck Seeker has said he doesn’t have the answer to wwwh, so how can you believe what he say’s as to how he feels the poem is going to work out? Your’s and Seeker’s theories to me is absolutely absurd, and you and he It seems like do complicate the problem. Just because I don’t have the chest is not reason enough to say, I don’t know what the clues are referring to.

        Just Say’n

        • Okay Charlie,
          Back at the start of this whole thing, which was way before 2018, f told us that all we needed was the poem. (drop sandwich and flashlight). If needing a map was so vital, instead of a flashlight and sandwich, I believe he would have said map. The only thing a searcher needs is the poem. Period. My research is spot on if I need to go into that. But I think we know.
          Look, the searchers that arrived at wwwh didn’t solve squat. Didn’t know anything. F has stated, there is no answer to wwwh. Why do you have a problem with that? I never said you couldn’t obtain wwwh. That you couldn’t learn what and where it is. Never. What I have said is that there is no answer given about it from the author. So as far as we, searchers, go, it’s not solvable as a stand alone clue. So your statement,” “How did you learn wwwh when f has not given the answer to it? It cannot be done.” is totally wrong. Because you are not understanding that what f has said. There is no answer to wwwh. The poem solved does not give an answer to wwwh, but you still can find it with the correct solve.

          You have also said,” you have no idea what I have for clues”, I don’t need to. I know with a 100% certainty that you do not know what the clues are. You and all of us cannot know what f intended for clues. So I don’t need to know what you think the clues are. We only know of two, that is it, everything else is speculation. No matter how well everything seems to fit, until the chest is found, all must be considered “coincidence”.
          ““I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly”. F’s interpretation of getting the first clue correct is being there on site. That is not what we are saying here. As searchers, we need the answer to it, to solve it, not to randomly show up at the spot. As far as wwwh is concerned, that cannot be done. The answer that you have for wwwh is merely coincidence.
          “You start with the first clue, after you have solved it, you go onto the next clue and solve it. What you are telling me is that you haven’t solved the first clue, [several people have] therefore you have no answers to the remaining clues.”
          Oh I don’t think so. Again, what prior clue did you use to solve for the first one? What in line 5 tells you wwwh? And, if you could solve clue one, then go to clue 2, and so on, then why can’t I just solve for clue 7,8, or 9 first? Don’t say you need the prior clue because then you are back to, “what about the first clue”.
          As far as complicating the problem, I have basically put my solve of the “poem” out there. My methods, instructions, and even the letter values that I’ve come up with. I’ve included how the bells come into play, and the medicine wheel. All without guessing but going what is in the poem and stories. So how is that a problem. I have said it before, I’ll put my solve up against any, because, I know that many start off with a guess about wwwh. It’s that “marry to a map” that is being misunderstood. Searchers use the map to solve for clues, or need a map to try to reference what they think the clues are. That is not solving the poem.
          I wouldn’t say all this if I didn’t already go through the dozens of possible solutions, or that I didn’t start just like everyone, that first year solve. Find a good wwwh on a map, look for other references to maybe some other clues, and research to give that history lesson on why it’s correct. That is not solving the poem. I’ve got years on you Charlie, your first write up is exactly that, the first year solution. I’m telling, trying to help, that it is not the way to go. Listen if you want, or not, doesn’t matter to me, but if you are going to come out with statements that go against what f has said, I’m going to call you out on it.
          I understand your position, like JDA saying that he used “in the wood” to solve for wwwh, in a subtle way, and I showed him exactly what f said, he still will not listen, I get it. I really do. I would have been the same way, but like in poker, you have to know just when you’re beat, fold, and start a new. Seeker and I do not see eye to eye on the poem solve, but I can respect the different ideas and if I see things that I understand as true within someone’s solve, then I will agree with it. A lot of what he is putting out is plausible, doesn’t mean we see the solve the same way.
          You need to take the blinders off. You have to see that your solve is like the thousands before you. The problem is you are stuck on the idea, while other ideas are just as good if not better out there. Forget trying to solve this on your own, and listen. Your post misrepresents what f has said, he said there is no answer to wwwh, the only way to find it is to find “out”, you must “learn, where it is. The only way to do that is to put an “X” on a map. Good luck

          • You go ahead and rant, also just because you’ve been at it longer than I have, most certainly does not mean that you are better at it or know more. You’ve been at it years, how’s that working for you?

            By the way, I’m not stuck on my solve, there are others. What a display of arrogance!


          • Poison;

            You say: “like JDA saying that he used “in the wood” to solve for wwwh, in a subtle way, and I showed him exactly what f said,”

            You have not shown me nor anyone else anything that Forrest has said that says anything contrary to my assertion that “In the wood” can lead to a discovery of the correct wwwh.

            Any time you respond to anything that is contrary to your beliefs, you obfuscate it in endless verbiage rather than a short sweet answer. If I missed your supposed statement that Forrest stated that says that “in the wood” can be used to find the correct wwwh – how about posting a simple one liner to which I will be happy to respond to.

            Kindly quit using me for your made-up and poor examples of how you think the poem should or should not be solved.

            I am not here for your enjoyment and do not appreciate your using my name in ways that distort my views just for your amusement.

            Again, I offer you the chance to take our differences off line, but am sure that you are fearful of honestly looking at my views – vs. your views one-on-one – JMO JDA

        • CharlieM,

          You can say you think the observational method is absurd, yet your only reasoning is you only want to believe the term “take it in” has to mean a psychical movement.
          You completely dismiss the fact that the term can mean a view, something encompassed, included, incorporated; ~ Take Something In; ‘fully understand or absorb something heard or *seen.* { dictionary example; “she took in the scene at a glance” }
          In which case the view is of the canyon down.

          The only thing that is truly absurd is your lack of information presented from the definitions and usages of words in the poem, if they don’t fit your idea.
          “Follow” beside the physical movement, means; act according to (an instruction or precept), to observe… pay close attention to (something)… keep track of; trace the movement or direction of.

          These definitions are facts, in plain English… absurd, is to ignore them with no logical reasoning but a personal preference to do so.

          • Seeker,

            I do understand your theories, reasons why, but I do disagree with your approach, to view. Yes I do dismiss what the term means and I can do so, mine is mine, yours is yours, I am not going to bend, but you seem to think I should. I presented a reasonable way to approach the poem, which I don’t expect all searchers to use. I just put it out there and yet I’m being pounced on by only two people.

            You see, practically every searcher has a different view point with others theories. You said, “These definitions are facts, in plain English… absurd, is to ignore them with no logical reasoning but a personal preference to do so.” And there you have it, I’m supposed to bend and yet here you are you dismissing my thoughts. Yes you presented facts of meanings, but that doesn’t make it so or correct for what the poem is saying.

            Different strokes for different people and you can’t seem to understand that.

            Just Say’n

    • you have some interesting thoughts but to brave the cold i just have to walk out side its a mess out there snow blowing bliz. stay home by the fire

  45. charlieM- really great post- outstanding-very well explained
    clues vs hints are quite the conundrum. Only after you have located the places on a map do you see the clues clearly. Trying to search out clues is futile.
    ie Neither HOB nor nfptm are clues but confirmation hints. IMO
    Good luck, “you scare me” ff

  46. I was experimenting with my heat map app I am working on, and I think I see JDA’s area, just as a guess from what he has said in the past. If I have guessed correctly, I can see why JDA is enamored with the area, It does a great job of cleverly answering 4 (or 5) clues depending on how you number the clues, the funny thing is my area does a great job of answering the other 4 (or 5) clues, unfortunately the two areas are worlds apart… or I’d be going with a snow shovel right now 🙂

      • oh not confident at all… there are perhaps 1000s of areas that can answer 4 or 5 clues. the trick is finding one that will answer 9 or more…

        like a lottery, one would get a couple dollars if they get 3 out of 6.

    • Writis;

      Email me at SculptorJDA at aol dot com, and I will ask you to answer a question. If you have identified my area, I will know by how you answer my question. If you have identified it correctly, I will let you know – and if not, I will also truthfully let you know – JDA

  47. It would be helpful I think to ditch the word “solve”. None of us have “solves”. We have >>> locational THEORIES.

    Also, given the discussion exchange above, searchers in my opinion need to downplay some of FF’s verbal comments, which are subject to misinterpretation and even some apparent contradictions. Yet, searchers still zero in on one or two of his verbal comments to justify their entire theory. It’s as if searchers consider these questionable verbal statements as basic and the poem as merely supplemental.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • I agree Ken in Texas. The poem should be the basis of a theory. And you are also right that nobody has a solve. All we have are theories until somebody is holding the TC. Currectly, my theory doesnt even have a location. So I cant call my current idea a locational theory.

    • * Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. Otherwise you have a “general solve.” What do you think? f

  48. Let me float this question out there: Regarding the lines of the poem that follow the home of Brown, particularly the stanza that follows immediately after, do you think that these lines are providing complimentary clues for moving in a single direction towards the blaze, or do you think that these lines are providing several consecutive directions?

    Honestly, I find myself constantly switching back and forth between these 2 ways of thinking, but more often I find myself thinking in the direction of the former for no particular reason.

    If you feel strongly in one way or the other, I would like to hear your reasoning why.

    I hope I’m making sense here, but if I’m not let me clarify: 1.) You are standing below the home of Brown. Your next move may be to follow along a shallow creek, that is also perhaps moving away from something that is meek, and perhaps is also moving towards an end that is nigh, and perhaps is also moving along an area that could be described as having heavy loads and waters high; OR 2.) You are standing below the home of Brown. Your next move is to move away from something that is meek (or towards something that is the opposite of meek). Then you change direction towards an end that is nigh. Then you change direction again following a creek (or moving away from a creek). Then you follow a feature that fits the description of heavy loads and waters high.

    Of course, it could be a combination of these two ideas as well. Maybe “no place for the meek” & “end is drawing ever nigh” are complimentary, and then “no paddle up your creek” and “heavy loads and waters high” are complimentary, making up 2 separate clues.

    I’m keeping an open mind, but can’t set myself definitively on either particular way of thinking.

    • Hi Blex;

      I have always interpreted it this way.

      I am standing at a spot that is below hoB. The line reads “From there it’s no place for the meek.” This tells me that from where I am standing, and in the direction that I must now travel is “no place for the meek.” Let’s say that from my spot below the hoB, I now need to travel west. As I move west (on foot or car) I will pass through an area that is “No place for the meek”. The farther west I go, the closer I get to the “END” place, and then the4 No paddle place and then the HLnWH place. If I am driving. I park at the “END” place and hike to the no paddle place and the rest of the clues.

      This has always been how I have interpreted it – JMO – JDA

      • Hi, JDA.

        So it sounds like you are interpreting it as single vector of travel with periodic “signposts” or landmarks along the way confirming that you are moving closer and closer to the blaze, but you are not necessarily making a zig or zag in your direction of travel on your way to the blaze (unless maybe where you park your car if driving)? I haven’t thought of it that way before, but certainly seems like another reasonable interpretation.

        Thanks for sharing your thoughts!

        • Blex;

          Zig or Zag? If the road curves right or left I follow it. If the trail goes off in a direction different than the basic direction I drove in on, I take the trail. If the trail has switchbacks, I follow the trail. Common sense is key. I do not take an azimuth at some point and follow that azimuth ignoring roads or trails. JDA

          • JDA: No argument there on what you’re saying. To clarify, when I say “zig or zag” I’m talking about where we are following a certain linear feature (that may undulate, switchback, etc.) and then abruptly leave it at a certain point to head in a different direction, perhaps following another linear feature.

            I keep wanting to use the term “vector” but stop myself because nothing in the mountains ever follows a straight line. Maybe I should coin a new term like… “spaghetti-vector”? 😉

      • JDA- If you have just Put in below the home of Brown, you will be going
        nowhere unless…the end is ever drawing nigh. If it is not, then you
        have the wrong “Put in”. You will know if the end is drawing nigh.

        • GB – You have to go through the “Meek Place” before you can get to the END place – or so the poem says – JDA

          • JDA,

            Question for you, I don’t see anything that says “to go through no pace for the meek.” How is it that? *from there* doesn’t seem to say that.

            Just curious

          • CharlieM;

            “From there…” says to me that “From the place that you put in (Which is below hoB) the only place to go is to a place that is “No place” for the meek – and then, the END will be drawing nigh or nearer.” Just how I read it you and others may not agree, and that id OK

            Why is there no other place to go? Maybe where you “put-in” there is a road, and the road leads in a certain direction. We can ignore the road, and bushwhack, but what if the road parallels a creek (A no paddle creek) – doesn’t it seem logical to take that road? Who knows, along the way you just might find a place that the Meek might shun, and find a HLnWH place – Who knows what you will find – so take the road and see – Just how I see it – JDA

          • CharlieM;

            Maybe a better way of explaining my thought is this:

            Let’s suppose that right next to your “Put-in” place there was a “Grizzly Gulch” or a “Rattlesnake Canyon” – These are two places that the Meek might not want to go to. They are NOT dangerous, but their name alone is a bit frightful. Past the “Grizzly Gulch” or up past “Rattlesnake Canyon” one can see (on a map) what looks like a likely END place, a likely No Paddle Creek and/or a HLnWH spots – Wouldn’t you go up the Gulch or Canyon to get to these likely spots? I would – JDA

          • JDA,

            Could it be possible that *from there* is a direction to head towards NPFTM then the travel towards is interrupted by TEIEDN, which could be meant to take a left turn, before NPFTM.

            Yes I know we differ with the meaning of nigh, but could that be possible? I’d say yes its possible. Funny how the small word nigh can create big discussions, but that is not what we are talking about.

            *From there*, is getting us to head towards NPFTM after that there could be two routes to take, depending on the interpretation of TEIEDN.

            Just my take, thanks my friend.

    • My thought is that once you PIBHOB you are headed in the direction of NPFTM in order to closer to the end. After that I feel like I have to have an open mind. Either NPUYC means you don’t go that way and go toward HLAWH or it means you travel a creek that you are unable to paddle up, until you reach HLAWH.

    • Blex,

      The line; FTINPFTM, almost sounds like a warning… something to know of, however, not to attempt it, line of thinking.

      In a stomping mode method, your first example seems to imply The end, meek, a creek HLnWH to be separate from each other. Your second example seems to avoid the area of meek.
      Then you say it could be a combination of both.
      I’d go with the combination line of thinking, in a stomp mode process.

      Look at it this way;
      You manage to be at hoB, getting there by / from WWH [that is two points to physically be at]
      Stanza 3 could be simply describing an area between hoB and HLnWH… an area we might no need to travel through, but need to know of by it’s description, and only known of IF you are at the correct hoB reference.
      The end you might seek, is where NPFTM brings you to, HLnWH.
      The simple concept here is to just understand where it leads to and go to ‘its’ ending point.

      Allow me to show in this scenario;
      From hoB… NPFTM [ for example only ] heads west for a mile following a creek, only to bend back eastward toward where you came from [ that could be another mile or more to travel ]
      Could HLnWH be near hoB but out of site at hoB, and stanza 3 is explaining where HLnWH is located.
      [ but again, only known of IF you have the correct hoB to fuigure out the area that is consider to be NPFTM.]
      Now, you hike to HLnWH, which could be a short distance from hoB, and only known of from understand NPFTM, because you have the correct hoB.
      This idea is; if you attempt to hike the mileage through a place that we are kinda warned is no place for the meek, it could take many hours, and possibly through rough terrain, or even impassable to attempt. Kinda thinking along fenn’s clue ~ Don’t go where an 80 yr old can’t go.

      Stanza 3 may only be describing a place that ends up at HLnWH, and will only be known of IF you have the correct hoB, by nailing down the first clue.
      Three physical places a searcher needs to be at, yet all the physical place the poem refers, to have been deciphered.

      The question is; does avoiding a place, but knowing of it and where it takes you, wrong, or breaks the rule of consecutive order?
      [note again; a searcher would only know of NPFTM [references] by having the correct hoB, and only having that, by nailing down the correct WWH.

      In “theory” all the clues could be mapped out ‘at home’ but ‘not’ in practice’ ~ they are not ‘known’ of unless on site.

      Just thoughts.
      I’m not big on the stomping mode idea. But even if that is the correct way to proceed… do we need to be ‘at’ every place the poem describes… especially when it *seems* we are being warned of a place that is not easy or shouldn’t be attempted… by an 80 yr old carrying a heavy backpack in and out [twice].

      • Seeker, a lot of good ideas here. Just to clarify: when you refer to “stomping mode”, are you talking about the searcher physically traveling from clue to clue, rather some of the clues just being visible from a certain vantage as the searcher moves along? Or you talking more about stomping mode in contrast to something like tracing lines on a map and seeing where they intersect, or something along that type of idea?

        The idea of the treasure (or HLnWH, or the blaze) being close to hoB is an interesting one, and one I wouldn’t rule out. I keep thinking of the poem leading us along a path between 3 points: WWWH, hoB, and the treasure. I guess another way to rephrase my original question above is: Does anyone else see more than 3 points of connection where a searcher would make another abrupt directional change? The circuitous path that you are describing from hoB would still be following one feature (say a creek) that happens to double back on itself naturally, so I would still consider that as one fluid leg of the search. (Of course the “put in” point where the searcher goes may be a very different location from the home of Brown itself.)

        I think a lot of us are wondering about NPFTM and NPUYC in the same manner: Are we moving towards or away this or that feature? I’ve always considered that we are being told to head towards HL&WH, but perhaps HL&WH is just a modifying term for NPUYC, which is the real clue that should be focused on.

        While I have been thinking of NPFTM and BAITW with an open mind, I still personally keep coming back to preferring the idea that both terms are indicating the point at which a searcher leaves a defined trail, path, or road and starts bushwhacking. But they could be landmarks as well.

        • Stomping is just way of saying; hiking point to point.
          My main point is; I don’t think there is 9 points to hike to or travel by. When I suggested that stanza 3 is more about knowing the location [[what NPFTM refers to], I mean, that it is needed to be known of so you know where the clue you need to actually be at next is… which in this case would be HLnWH, and might be closer to hoB than we think.

          Without the depiction of the landscape [stanza 3] a searcher wouldn’t know of, or end up, at HLnWH – [in theory]. I don’t think we can actually, or at least, easily travel through NPFTM. Its job is more about telling us where the next ‘physical point’ to be at.

          There is another version as well. Stanza 3 tells ‘what’ is put in below the hoB and home is the blaze.
          Basically saying; stanza 3 confirms you have the correct WWH and hoB… IF you discover NPFTM [ its creek, its HLs and its WH] that is depicted below hoB.
          That is only two reference points needed to physically be at.
          Like I said; I’m not big on the idea that all clue’s references are places we need to physically stomp to. Yet most of the clues are places of their own.

          • Gotcha. Thanks for clarifying, Seeker. I’m open to that idea that one does not necessarily need to physically visit all of the clues. At the very least, I’m somewhat confident that one does not need to travel to WWWH and the canyon down. If the put-in point is far enough away, then one may not need to visit the home of Brown either. Marvel gaze is one of those phrases that I’ve considered a possible clue that many others don’t seem to pay as much attention to, but if that is a clue then I don’t think that one requires physically visiting either.

          • Is this why you think they would ended up switching back? Otherwise how would searchers get the first few clues and come within 200 feet?

    • Blex, I think in the end, when the poem is solved and all, it then can be seen for face value. With that goes you will start at line 5 and carry forth. So, from your hoB, with a path that is one way in, one way out like this is suppose to be, then all you will be doing is following your path. So it would not be a ‘zig zag” as you described. You will go into that meek place, look up and see the end is drawing nigh, see the shallow creek, and carry on your path etc… to the blaze.
      It’s the thought of one way in, one way out that would make someone think that everything will be in a sort of straight line to the chest. From start to finish.

      • Poisonivey, that’s the way I seem to keep thinking of it as well. I’m pushing back on that assumption and trying to see if maybe that is a flaw; that maybe there is another zig or zag buried a little deeper that we aren’t catching as easily as everything else. Maybe that’s just overcomplicating things for no good reason on my part. I’m looking at it this way: the treasure has remained undiscovered, so maybe one of the assumptions we are commonly making is flawed. One of the big assumptions I’m looking at is the very idea that you described: maybe it is not just a clear, single path to the treasure from hoB (or the put in point)?

        We know from Forrest that the treasure is not along a human trail, so there has to be some point where we go off-trail, and once you are off trail, there are no clear paths. There are clear geographic features that can be followed, like a creek or a topographic ridge or depression, but in the wilderness many of these features are competing in the same spot for attention. (I feel like I am rambling today; thanks for bearing with me!)

        • Hey Blex,
          I may see the whole thing a little different. I don’t think hoB is a clue, or that the searcher “puts in” as they say. For me, the one way in one way out is a service trail. I follow a trail all the way up to the 8th clue. The 9th clue puts me in the forest. My 9th clue obviously is a distance and direction.
          I think if a searcher is “confused” or at a stand still, it would be at the blaze. I know this has been said before, and I know you’ve been around for awhile, but I tend to remember way back at the start f doing an interview saying the ‘blaze” will confuse, or is meant to confuse the searcher. The thing is, I can’t find the source anywhere, or my notes in detail. So I can’t just come out and say it, the info is not out there, so I have to dismiss the thought. BUT, I know what I heard. You may remember some debates on that statement, but it’s all outside the scope type of info. BUT, again, I know what I heard. With that said, I think it’s the blaze that is the end of all in the chase. Something about it that all searchers just have to know what it is, or their solve is no good. I also think the last half of the clues are close to the blaze, about 200’ in all. So it’s a good reference point.
          The thing is Blex, I know my blaze, but when I was out on a search, I never saw it. Walked right by it. Have since seen it, but that is the thing I’m trying to point out. The blaze is un-conventional if you will. It’s nothing that anyone can think of, IMO. So, in your scenario, if looking at the put in point or the hoB, for you, I really would think that those two positions are just straight forward. No zig or zag. The zig or zag comes just afterward at the blaze. And of course, that is just my opinion. I also would think twice about a zig zag at that point because it seems like each discovery of a clue gets you closer to the chest. If it’s an inch, or it’s a mile, it’s always moving forward towards the chest. I can’t see looping or switching back, or whatever because I just don’t see Fenn doing that when he wrote the poem to give a path. Straight forward so to say. To say ‘side step” or ‘loop” clues, I would think that f would just initially put the next clue right after the previous. Why take 2 steps forward and 1 step back, right? That would be a waste of time for him. Sorry about the length of the reply, in the end Blex, hell, go with your gut, and find the blaze.

    • Hi Blex … I see the nine clues as consisting of a start point (WWWH) and 8 vectors.

      Given that WWWH is the first clue, then clue 2 would be a point that forms the first vector. Once at clue 2, searcher must solve clue 3 which generates a new vector, and so on.

      If searcher makes a mistake interpreting WWWH (the first clue) or makes a mistake interpreting any subsequent vector, then no chest. The 8 vectors are like arrows that get the searcher closer to the chest. Pretty simple.

      • That may very well be, Ken. It’s definitely the most aviator-oriented way to go about solving the puzzle, which fits Forrest.

        The biggest obstacle I see in that line of thinking is that it seems like it would be absolutely critical to identify all 9 clues within the poem without any uncertainty before translating them to vectors. I don’t think anyone can agree for sure which clues are the official 9.

        • Blex wrote: “it would be absolutely critical to identify all 9 clues within the poem without any uncertainty before translating them to vectors.”
          I think that’s exactly what FF had in mind. To correctly solve clue 5, for example, searcher would need to correctly solve clue 4, which is dependent on correctly solving clue 3. Most or nearly all of the clues can be solved at home using a map.

          But, when searcher is on-site, the last clue or two might require observational skills to know whether at some point to turn left or right, and at some other point whether to hike along the creek or veer upslope to some hilltop.

  49. I think the most frustrating part about thie chase is having a super-awesome possible solution and not being able to tell anyone about it. Family and friends tuned me out years ago. (Insert eye rolls here)”Is she talking about Fenn or Treasure again?”

    Hurry up, Spring. I have a bracelet to return.

    • Veronica S-
      you can tell everyone here about your super-awesome possible solution. we dont bite.
      (but we chew up and spit out pretty good.) lol

      this i know.

      • Bob, I can’t at this point, but soon. If I come home, tail-tucked on the next search, then I will submit a story to Dal. I’ve been quiet , as I’m sure others are ,with their favorite spot.
        If I fail then maybe I can at least let others know where it’s not.

    • Sometimes I think I can almost feel your frustration.
      By the way, nice br . . . braid(s) — in the avataur, that is.

      • If you are referring to my hair then thank you. If you were referring to anything else, please don’t.
        Reminds me, I need to change my avatar

        • Happens to me all the time too…
          The trouble is….what people notice about me is my extra large ego!

          You can’t see it on the avatar because that’s a picture of my deputy. You have to meet me in person to notice my affliction.

          Now where is that deputy of mine?

          Best regards;

          1F Billy

    • Absolutely. If I ever had a secret that I didn’t want to get around,I’d tell Forrest. He’s good

          • I’m not 100% just yet on dates. You know … I missed it by one day last year? I also don’t know if I’m ready to creep out of the shadows of the search just yet. I’m a loner, although I’ve come in contact with a few cool searchers.

          • Hay Veronica
            How do you put a picture on your avatar I have a picture of my dog I would like to use thanks if you can Clint.

  50. when we talk about wwwh being below hob – to me it means east – and when we talk about no paddle up your creek – heavy loads the blaze and in the wood – below is north – its my opinion – that you have to know what is hob – in order to understand why below is north imo

  51. Hey Clint,
    The way I did it is by opening a WordPress account . It was kind of a pain, but at the end, you can choose a profile picture in the account settings.
    There may be an easier way, but that’s how (I did it. I’m not very computer savvy)

    • Blex, lol, that’s pretty funny. I wondered that a long time ago. A first solve I had was at camp Loll in Wy, near lake in the woods. Boy Scout place. I thought for sure he may have been, but I have never found any info confirming. I’m thinking ‘no” for some reason, but I cannot give you an answer. Maybe Dal. how long have the Boy Scouts been around? If I had to guess, Fenn was more a ‘do on your own” type. I don’t think he would follow the rules of the Boy Scouts, or it may just bore him. Good luck if you are looking into that avenue.

      • I asked Forrest once if he was a Boy Scout. His reply was: “I’m not sure. But I don’t think so. We didn’t have any spare money for uniforms.”
        That Q/A is not in an interview anywhere. It just came up when I was visiting with him one day.

        The scouts have been in this country since 1910…Forrest would’ve been old enough to be in the scouts in August 1941.
        I’m betting he never was as a kid….

        • Thanks, dal & poisonivey! It’s not a critical element to any solve that I’m working on, but would have just been an interesting side note if he was.

          In my internet searching, I did run across a few other people who seem to be considering a Boy Scout Camp here or there as a possible home of Brown.

      • Not scout uniform or college degree but FF experienced life well beyond most that have them.

  52. I’d like to share some information with other searchers . The site posted below is a link to an archeology study in SW Colorado dealing with prehistoric Ute rock art and interpreted trail maps.


    This is very interesting to me. The author talks about petroglyphs in the Uncompahgre area and the Gunnison Gorge. She claims that the petroglyph designs can be crudely matched with topography if the stone etched “maps” are rotated 180 degrees to correspond with the ancient’s perspective of the sun rising in the south. The paper talks about warm airs rising, ridge lines, and circles. All are relevant to the Search and they seem to tie in with Native American themes which I think is important. I can’t vouch for the author’s credentials or believability, and I have some doubts of my own. I’m just putting this out there for comments and feedback. These have relevance to my main solve theory, but probably not to most people.

    • Thanks for sharing. Fascinating stuff. It may hold no tie to the Chase , but, it remains of significant interest, at least to me, as I live in Ute country. Perhaps we require a diviner, one of the caliber of Mandrake, or more, recently, Kreskin, to show us the way. Thanks again for digging deep and sharing..

    • I’ve seen two. You didn’t have to rotate them or anything like that, they were straight forward, showing an unmistakable starting point and a clear trail leading away, to an end point.

  53. All you need is the poem. He doesn’t have to tell us a brain will help does he? So with that type of thinking, we are looking for a location in an area we may never have been in before, so if we begin to use our brain, some of us see value in a map. Use the poem an
    your brain.

    Now in a somewhat related thought, in ttotc ff wisely used a map to start a fire….. if you are wise and found the blaze (maybe on a map)

        • Yes, on page 60 is where they wisely wadded the map to start the campfire. So, using a map is considered wise by ff, and it got them a blaze…..

          • Ahh haa, searchers are getting smarter. You could almost say it’s a “marvel gaze”. Maybe to find the blaze, we need to find “marvel gaze”. Then look “up”. Maybe, it’s something like a campfire, then just look up to find the blaze.

    • ff was asked how far from the blaze is the TC? He said he did not measure that distance but when you find the blaze it will be obivious.
      ff was asked what is hoB, he said if I told you, you would go right to the TC.
      ff said, talking about hiding the TC, I secrete it. .
      Defination of secrete is to conceal from view.

      Now one or more of those answers where meant to be humours, not factial, imo.
      So you can not bank on all ff sez as facts.

        • I was thinking about “see Crete” as a hint, but now you tell me
          that it’s not “secrete”, but “secret”.

          That’s different . . . . . never mind.

          On the other hand, when I think of deodorant and where it’s
          applied, there may be a small hint in play after all.

          • Well imo, its not correct, the way ff is using secret, but if you have read the book, you know ff will use want word he whats as long as you understands what he means lol. Somewhat of an Example given.

          • I have to agree with Musstag. Forrest is known to “bend” words a bit. I think in many cases the textbook spelling or usage of a word is not as important as the meaning it invokes in the reader’s mind. And in poetry, bending words is a perfectly legitimate practice anyway. Whether it should grammatically be “secret” or “secrete”, what matters here is what it makes you think of in the context of the stanza and the poem as a whole.

      • Musstag- Forrest is not joking. i can clarify all these statements for you as they pertain to the Draper museum and the chest mentioned in the poem, but not the bronze box…
        and of course, all in my opinion not to be taken as fact.

        1.how far is blaze from chest? about two feet thats why is obvious.
        2. why if FF told you what HOB is you would go right to it (the chest of the poem)? because the HOB is the Byrd naturalist cabin at the Draper museum and once you go there the poem will fall into place, step by step and the chest is about 100 feet from the HOB.
        3. the chest is secreted. he means NOT hidden from view, is in fact in plain sight at the archeology display. this line of the poem is the most misunderstood- “i can keep my secret where”.
        and the secret from this line is the fact that the chest mentioned in the poem is not the bronze box. that IS the big secret kept at the Draper museum. this is how he cleverly “hid it from view” as you said. the chest of the poem has been cleverly hidden from view in disguising it as the bronze box with words.

        and when reading any of FF’s statements, or comments in this light, then everything he ever said makes sense. everything FF ever said can in fact, be taken as fact.

        all in my opinion, based on 6 years of BOTG.

        • Forrest told us his secret plan. I think I will go with his description of this secret instead of your interpretation of it. Page 137 in TTOTC. He does not mention the Draper museum as his secret, his secret is hiding bells. So when he asks, “I can keep my secret where”, then doesn’t that mean, I can bury my bell where? Isn’t that what is being said? I will tell you my “secret” plan, bury bells. I can keep my “secret” where? How is it possible to misinterpret that? Sorry Bob, don’t think it has anything to do with the Draper museum.

        • Turning my brain inside out, right after you say “hid it from view” its like magic, you are moving chests and bronze boxes around with slight of hands moves, or the 3 shell game lol

  54. I think some of the best advice Forrest has given us is to re-read TTOTC again, slowly. I have done this many times and each time, I discover something that I have missed previous because I wasn’t really reading slow enough . Things begin to stand out when you take the time to analyze and really think about it. Lots of Ah-has and ohs and a few how-did-I-miss-thats emerge from these pages.
    Or… I am just sinking deeper into chase induced madness. Either way, I’m okay with it.

    • Stick with it. I’m on my tenth reading. I learn something new every time. I don’t know that I am any closer to finding Indulgence, but I feel like maybe I am understanding Mr. Fenn a little better.

  55. Does anyone shop on Ebay for chase-related souvenirs or research materials? Right now there are searcher coins, Fenn window decals, a Temple High School yearbook, a Kachina doll, other sundry items. Have you ever bought a unique treasure from this website related to the chase?

    • Not exactly unique souvenirs but tools I have purchased include lemon juice, steam iron, black light, infrared light. I had to buy a new book after that rabbit hole. Amazing the avenues and subterranean journeys I have taken myself on in the Chase – that was a really fun one…!!

    • The only place where I have shopped for my collection of chase-related souvenirs and research materials is at Collected Works in Santa Fe.

      I have so far amassed one such item.

      If I acquire another, I will have literally DOUBLED my collection and expanded it 100%.

      I did buy a nice set of gently used radial tires on ebay once.

  56. FTINPFTM….One possible understanding may be that you will be wading in a shallow creek. For The Meek Shall Inherit the EARTH. A shallow creek is not a manmade trail but can be a trail. We know that the poem uses multiple references to water. Put In, No Paddle Up Your Creek, Where Warm Waters Halt, and Heavy Loads And Water High. It could be that the path is either along a water course…or by wading in the water. My thoughts may be jaded by my habit of puddle jumping and wading the shallow creeks here in the Flint Hills of Kansas searching for arrow heads and fossils. I have not found a Saber Tooth Tiger yet but north of here (Nebraska) they found a T-Rex. The above as always is my opinion. The cover of TFTW has the nice photo of the shadow falling across a stream of someone (maybe ff) following a stream. Good Luck…Knock On Wood, and Throw A Pinch Of Salt Over Your Shoulder. Keep That Rabbits Foot Handy!!!

  57. I’ve read the poem several more times as Fenn suggested and identified each line with one of five categories (A for Actions, D for Descriptions of the path or situation, G for LoGistics, L for Locations, and V for Views). The stanza and the line number are added first and the identifications are added at the end.

    (1-1) As I have gone alone in there — G
    (1-2) And with my treasures bold, — G
    (1-3) I can keep my secret where, — G
    (1-4) And hint of riches new and old. — G

    (2-1) Begin it where warm waters halt — L
    (2-2) And take it in the canyon down, — V
    (2-3) Not far, but too far to walk. — D
    (2-4) Put in below the home of Brown. — L

    (3-1) From there it’s no place for the meek, — A
    (3-2) The end is ever drawing nigh; — A
    (3-3) There’ll be no paddle up your creek, — D
    (3-4) Just heavy loads and water high. — D

    (4-1) If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, — L
    (4-2) Look quickly down, your quest to cease, — V
    (4-3) But tarry scant with marvel gaze, — A
    (4-4) Just take the chest and go in peace. — A

    (5-1) So why is it that I must go — G
    (5-2) And leave my trove for all to seek? — G
    (5-3) The answers I already know, — G
    (5-4) I’ve done it tired, and now I’m weak. — G

    (6-1) So hear me all and listen good, — G
    (6-2) Your effort will be worth the cold. — G
    (6-3) If you are brave and in the wood — A
    (6-4) I give you title to the gold. — G

    According to these identifications there are 5 Actions, 3 Descriptions, 11 LoGistics, 3 Locations and 2 Views, which means that we have to:
    1) Find 3 locations from beginning to the end not including the final hiding place, namely, Where Warm Waters Halt, Put-in below home of Brown, and the Blaze
    2) View 2 scenes without physically moving anywhere
    3) Take 5 actions to connect the locations or to proceed to the next solve
    4) Use 3 descriptions to further refine the locations or the path
    5) Treat 11 lines about logistics of the chase and general info which can be deleted from the nine clues Fenn mentioned.

    My point is that we ONLY have to find 3 locations and one or two paths between these locations which are described by three lines and do 5 actions necessary to complete the chase. The last action to find the treasure chest is the stanza 6, line 3. Of course all these are my opinions only.

    — MajinKing

    • Definitely seems very logical and well thought out. I like the idea of three locations as it creates a triangle.

      • Hi ID,
        Yes, indeed, if each one of the three can see the other two clearly without anything blocking the views to them.
        — MK

        • If that were true it would narrow things down quite a bit. I haven’t had a solve idea yet that could fit that requirement.

    • MajinKing–

      Your analysis is very interesting and nearly correct in my opinion. Very interesting….


        • Funny EasyP, and it rhymes too. I tried to write a response in verse, but when it comes to rhyming I stink.

          • Speaking of stink, did you know there is a mistake in TTITC? F says that Stinking Creek is east of Hegben Lake. It’s actually East of Cody. What’s up with that? The Shoshone River is Stinking Creek.

      • Thanks 1F,
        You’re the first to say that my analysis is nearly correct. I wish that my analysis is 100% correct though.
        — MK

    • I would be happy just knowing for sure, one of those three locations. right now I have thousands of locations for each of the first two, (with a few favorites) and I am not bothering with the blaze at all yet. can’t get past 5th clue… keeps teasing me with … nope, look somewhere else.

      • Hi Writis,
        Even though Fenn said explicitly not to look for the blaze without first locating where warm waters halt, I think you can surely try to locate the blaze first (if you think you’re wise enough) and may be able to back track to locate where warm waters halt, don’t you think? In that case I certainly know you need all the luck you can find in the Rocky Mountains though.
        — MK

  58. Where is everybody at.must be on the way to the T.C.I can count at least 5 or 6 that are possible getting close by the way they are whispering and dropping hints and that’s just the ones that are talking ,who knows how many lurkers are out there. We had -15 below here in Michigan two days in a row north of Grand Rapids about a 100 miles. Clint

    • Me … I’m headed for Scottsdale. It’s hovering around 75. And soon after that, the Florida Keys at 80. The treasure can wait. ‍♂️⛵️

    • Wow, E C. Thank you for creating and sharing this. Your generosity is very much appreciated.

    • E.C.,

      Thanks a bunch for the PDF and all of the work you put in. Instead of going to tarryscant most of the time, this works much better. Good job.

    • I knew there was a reason it would be worth it to go through this thread (I’ve found that doing it all at once just prior to it closing is better than trying to keep up with it on a regular basis). Thanks for this.

      My other comment is with regards to the 1000’s of places that the clues fit. While that may be the case, I think that the vast majority of those (maybe 95% or more) can be eliminated from an armchair perspective. I’ll be on my third BOTG this summer and if I don’t find it on this one, I think I’ll be out of spots. And yes, I understand that’s just for the way I look at the Chase and how I look at it doesn’t mean it’s the only way. Take my comment for whatever it’s worth.

    • I do this because I am researching the words angle. For example, did you know the word “kid” is a synonym for “tub”, albeit a rare one?

      I like that he references Billy the Kid and George Washington (“wash”) in one of his replies: https://dalneitzel.com/2014/11/02/scrapbook-one-hundred-two/#comment-58576

      Lyrics that were sung by Ernest Tubbs and Olga’s tub are also mentioned in TTOTC. Is a tub where we should begin, where warm waters halt? Like a Great Divide Basin? Seems like it could be a really big deal (the Gangplank, if one sees “deal” like a “board”), I mean, if “so wy is it that I must go” and all…

      • EC, Wow, thanks, thats a nice little gift. It ‘s probably not just his off-the-cuff words at interviews, or thought-out replies to questions….but in the book as well.

        This is off your topic, but you might have thought on it too. In the Epilogue, I find it curious that FF put a sentence with the details of his parents burial plot. The paragraph above the axman would read just as well without that sentence. Just a little odd …I’ve got extended thoughts on why, but I’ll wait a bit on that. Again, thanks for your file on FF quotes.

  59. From the poem, “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,” I noticed that some here feel you have to be wise to find the blaze. The way that I interpret the line, to simply mean if you’ve been wise in solving all of the clues up to the point prior to finding the blaze. There is somewhat of a separation with the word, “(and) found the blaze”.

    So to shorten up: wise to solve the clues so far, now you need to find the blaze, then look quickly down.

    just ranting,

    Just Say’n

    • Hi CharlieM;

      As usual, we differ. Wise, to me congers up the “Wise old owl” saying.

      What is there about an owl that might make it wise. For one thing, an Owl always finds a high perch from which to spot its prey. So too, maybe a searcher needs to look for a high perch if he/she is to spot the place that Indulgence is secreted.

      “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, look quickly down…” – The high perch idea seems to work with the “look quickly down…” JMO – JDA

      • JDA,

        I feel the poem is not associated to any type of animal, fish or birds, this would include metaphorically or old sayings.

        Of course, Just Say’n

          • Hi JDA,
            You may not be limiting yourself if the blaze can be seen from anywhere closeby, high or low, IMO.
            — MK

      • Why did Fenn write “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze……” instead of “If you are wise and find the blaze……”? Have any idea?
        — MK

        • Majinking;

          An interesting question. Maybe, If you have been wise in the past, and seen something or read something – possible while reading TTOTC – and then when you are on-site, maybe you see something that brings back that memory from some yesterday in the past – you recognize the blaze for what it really is.

          Let’s say that you read “My war for me” – the story about the French Soldier’s grave marker, and saw the picture of Forrest with the grave marker, and then months later, with BotG, you see a stone formation that looks like a Grave Marker, and it reminds you of the story and the PIC.

          “If you’ve been wise (in the past) and found the blaze (that you had seen in TTOTC..).” Just an Idea – JDA

          • Hi JDA,
            A good point. But then my question is: Which was written first, the poem or the TTOTC?”
            — MK

          • Maijinking;

            Forrest said that it took him about 15 years + to write the poem that was included in TTOTC, so a description and/or PIC of something like a Grave Marker could have been placed in TTOTC when the poem was first published – I see no conflict – JDA

        • MK, good question. I say because the blaze is described in the 3rd stanza. We don’t know what it is until we solve the description of it there. So we’ve ‘been’ wise or ‘at’ wise and now recognize the blaze??? Maybe some or most of that thought, why do you think is past tense?

    • If I were a bettin’ man, I’d be interested in bettin’ a C note that FF
      didn’t mean it the way you’ve described it. (But I’m not.)

    • CharlieM, I tend to agree with your interpretation for the simple reason of scale. It may be up to debate how many clues require BOTG to see, but at the very least I do not believe that the blaze would be visible on Google Earth. To me, there seems to be the necessity of some type of marking in the field to point a searcher towards where the chest lies within a narrowed-down geographic area that someone arrives at by following the other clues.

      I’m thinking of the Q&A where a searcher named Foxy asked Forrest what direction the blaze faces, North, South, East, or West? Forrest responds “I didn’t take a radial off of the blaze Foxy. I’m thinking it may not be any of those directions. F”

      As I interpret Forrest’s response, he is finding a clever loophole in the question. Foxy used the cardinal directions North, South, East & West instead of using looser terms like “predominantly northerly”, etc., so Forrest is simply saying he doesn’t think that the blaze is facing true north, true south, true west, or true east. I think the loophole in Foxy’s question is the only reason why Forrest decided to bother answering the question at all; he jumped on the opportunity to have a little fun with it.

      However, I think what can be taken away from Forrest’s response is that the blaze is at least mostly vertically-oriented and DOES face in a certain direction of the compass on a primarily vertical surface. Meaning that the blaze would not be visible from GoogleEarth due to orientation (and possibly also its small size).

      Others have interpreted Forrest’s response in the manner that maybe the blaze faces upward and is a feature that can be spotted on GE, a macro-blaze if you will, but I tend not to agree with that interpretation because if you already use your blaze clue to pinpoint a spot on GE, then you would be stuck searching whatever area on a BOTG trip without any further marker to lead you towards the chest. I understand that there are other ways one could come up with to work around this problem (one I’ve heard is that once you get to the macro-blaze, you start the poem over during BOTG to further narrow down the location and find a smaller-scale blaze), but it just doesn’t seem correct in my opinion. I have done a BOTG trip working off of a macro-blaze interpretation before, and it has left me stranded with no further direction. All just my two cents.

  60. The poem “Just heavy loads and water high.” The word *just* in the poem tells me that hlawh are are not necessary to go to. It might put one in the correct area to look for the blaze. One more thing, it might be that, “no paddle up your creek, plus hlawh puts one in a small area to find the blaze. The three could somewhat triangulate the area for the blaze.

    Again ranting and nothing better to do.
    Just Say’n

    • Hi Charlie, The “just” idea is very interesting, I’ve also thought about not going up the creek. Searching for a small blaze doesn’t appeal to me, because so many small things could be the blaze, it doesn’t seem practical.

      • James;

        What is a “small” blaze? Is a rock formation maybe 4′ X 4′ X 1′ Small? How about twice that size 8′ X 8′ X 2′?

        “so many small things could be the blaze, it doesn’t seem practical.”

        If one knows what he/she is looking for, or knows exactly where to look, what difference does it make how big it is? It might be as small as a single rock with something inscribed on it – even as small as 10″ X 14″ X 7″ – as an example.

        Didn’t Forrest say something like?: ~”I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.” f JMO – JDA

        • Hi JDA,
          Why do the “direct path” and “no certainty of the location beforehand” in Fenn’s quote got to do with the size of the blaze?
          — MK

      • Yes I like the “just” idea, and I too skip going up the creek, but, I wonder how the view is up there. Maybe we should check it out.

        • Hi Musstag,
          I think another meaning for the “no paddle up your creek” is just an expression to say that “there is nothing you can do about it” and has nothing to do with paddles, loads and water, IMO.
          — MK

          • MK,

            The true saying goes: “your up the creek without a paddle”, or your SOL.

            There’ll be no paddle = can’t paddle up your creek.

            Just Say’n

          • i am still having a tendency to refer “no paddle” with his sister June getting “no switch” because she was always “right”! That to me has been a signal to look or go right and break up going nigh. Maybe walk right up the creek? Just my thoughts.

    • CharlieM if you are coming from wwwh – going to hob – you will come to a dead end – and that’s where your creek will also end at this body of water where its being released – (no paddle) – so at the dead end you cant keep going west and you cant go south and east is where you are coming from wwwh – so the poem sends you to waters high and that is the northest end of this body of water and that puts you near the blaze- heavy loads means highway – so you stay on the highway going north to waters high to the blaze and the rest of the clues that’s just my opinion—–frank

  61. everything comes full circle. we begin at wwwh . an action is required to make wwwh at the end. this is ” high water ” imo

  62. CharlieM, JDA and those who can imagine that those lines in the poem that start at “From there it’s no place for the meek,…I agree that you do not necessarily have to go into, or thru npftm, to get to the TC because of the words “From there”.

    The end is ever drawing nigh; does not mean that you must go left, but to your left and near there is a creek from npftm, ; says to me a change of pathway or direction and if followed, being too far to walk or too steep to paddle, so Just what if heavy loads and water high was the motive of travel?

    There’ll be no paddle up your creek,

    Just heavy loads and water high. IMO Just means only here.

    If you’ve been wise and found the blaze, the word “wise” could mean time, like the 3 wise men who came from the east? Following the Star Blaze that was created by a timing, ie confluence or conflux of events, a gathering. When light or fire creates a blaze it, by definition would remind me of a line from Blade Runner, TYRELL: The light that burns twice as bright burns half as long, and you have burned so very very brightly, Roy. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KcJs4qJPQ_M


    • Remember that you are in water at this time, the line before my thoughts above states “Put in below the home of Brown” Put in means in most cases to get into a boat, a ship or water perhaps an after thought of “Begin it WWWH” “And take the canyon down.” “The end is ever drawing nigh;” does that mean to leave the water path? Maybe since it is a punctuation mark (;) indicating a pause, typically between two main clauses, that is more pronounced than that indicated by a comma. Perhaps it’s a new punctuation describing a big change; like mode of transport or the actual pathway.


      • Thanks TT,
        I think you’ve explained what I was not keen enough to see, a semicolon after the “nigh” instead of a period or a comma. If it was a period, the next two lines would be describing a different creek, and also written in the future tense. But since it is a semicolon, the next two lines might be describing the same creek, and since the next line is written in the future tense it seems to confirm my interpretation that it describes the things needed in the future, i.e., after the chest is found. So IMO you have to go down the creek, find the blaze and then the chest, and return through the same creek.
        — MK

      • TT,

        Don’t forget F indicated that he walked from his car twice to hide the tc.
        With that said, it does not make sense to use travel by water to get to the tc. F would have had to drive to where he started or anywhere in between to go into the water to arrive at the tc. This is not practical because he got out of his car which equals, car – water – car. Also I would be sure F would not travel water, which could mean paddle up the creek then float back, or visa-versa, float to and paddle back, that in its self takes a lot of physical effort, similar to much like he’s not going down and back up twice in a canyon, which too is a lot of effort.

        I also think that F likes to fly fish and stay on his two feet. There is no indication of F using watercraft anywhere in his travels, except for going with, I think a nephew or uncle, not sure, to go after sunken treasures, one time. So, using watercraft is out of the picture.

        “Put in” could be an aerial term to land at a certain place to stop flying. None of the searchers where expected to fly, so I believe that put in could mean to stop at a place below hoB, then to continue in a different direction towards NPFTM by car or on foot.

        Just Say’n

        • According to Merriam Webster dictionary… put in…can also mean …spend time.

          But to me…it means park your car and start walking.

          • Rinck in FLA

            Allow me to expound.

            You just hit on something important and no one, not even you, is going to pay attention to it.

            Throughout this poem the mechanism used to convey the story is fishing or boating.

            However, the clues are not based on that story.


          • This is a good point Lug. While I don’t think the story, or theme, is fishing or boating, the question one has to ask is does this story apply to clues at all? Perhaps it only serves to help with the first clue in some way.

          • Lug,

            “Throughout this poem the mechanism used to convey the story is fishing or boating.” How is it that fishing or boating convey the story? I don’t see any indication of that happening, sure water is in the poem, and *put in” doesn’t necessarily mean to put in a boat as Rickinflorida indicated.

            Am I missing something?

            Just Say’n

    • Yeah I saw it over there as well… Maybe someone should ask back at the museum in Detroit, if this casket is still there and if yes, which one seems to be a duplicate, or if Forrest maybe bought it from there… the estimated time this casket is from is a bit strange… someone seems to be off a few hundred years…

      Great winter-find though… 🙂

      • It was found by Scott Kehn on my site……all the info and correspondence with the museum is there…….Forrest Fenn’s Treasure Galore…on FB. …..we are solving the mysteries of the chase. Great job, Scott.

      • Antiques are commonly misdated and misidentified. When I retrieve Fenn’s chest I plan to have it appraised by the Keno brothers. 😉

    • It’s a pic of a look-a-like chest…not THE chest as the above comments suggest..
      In my opinion it is a much rougher looking version. When comparing it to Forrest’s chest it looks like a cast copy of the original…or at least a lesser quality version…
      It could also be a much newer version of his chest…

      The images are of a chest in the Detroit Institute of Art…which is (I suppose) just north of Toledo…

      • In my opinion it’s an exact copy of Forrest’s chest. It looks to be a little darker than his but all of the figures and style are the same. Also, the size are very close. I think Forrest just estimated the size. You could say that 9 3/4″ is 10″ or 5 3/4 is 6″. It seems that the chest is not so rare. Or could it be possible that this is Forrest’s chest that was found by Mr. and Mrs. John L booth? It would be interesting to know when they had donated it.

        • Thank you for posting this, JDA. So much work went into making that replica! It made me think … I wonder how many bronze pouring injuries Forrest sustained while doing that at his home?! ( without all of the fancy equipment that these guys have)
          Again, thanks for posting. It was fascinating to watch!

          • Veronica;

            Forrest owned a foundry, and had all of the proper equipment for pouring bronze are. I am sure that he was very careful, but yes, it is a bit dangerous. I am sure that you are aware that Forrest did NOT make the bronze chest called Indulgence – he bought it. JDA

        • How’d they do that in the middle-ages w/o electricity & asbestos aprons, gloves, masks….. my admiration skyrockets. Thanks JDA.

          • According to Quara.com: around 8000 BCE–500 CE. in South America the following metals where being used: Copper/gold and arsenic bronze, copper/tin, copper/silver, tin/copper/arsenic was being made too. This technology spread to Central America by 800BC.

            North America’s the only metal that was used, was native copper (not smelted or alloyed). Copper was primarily used for fish hooks and bracelets and the northwest as shields.

            Just Info.

        • JDA-
          That video has been around a few years. I remember when it appeared. Forrest was interested in it too. Forrest was thinking about purchasing his finished chest but when he saw the end quality he decided not to. It is not a very fine reproduction.

          • JDA- of course I know he didn’t make the chest. I haven’t been that deep under a rock. It just looks like some of the equipment used is a little more advanced than it was when f had his foundry

      • This is the second time now that the authenticity of a certain chest has been brought into question on the search boards.

        Oh, if only spring would come and the mountains thaw and clear so we can return to relevant matters.

      • Forrest just told me that the “new” chest is much smaller than his chest and although the images on the “new” chest look similar they are not identical to the images that appear on Forrest’s chest.

        • I am not sure what Forrest’s definition of “much smaller” is but this new chest measures precisely. 9.75″ x 9.75″ x 5.75 inches which is the same as Forrest’s 6x10x10 or 5 x10x10.

          • I can’t see any noticeable difference in the images, either. It appears to me anyway as an exact replica. Maybe Forrest can tell us what the difference is, because I can’t see it.

          • Commenting on your ‘can’t see any noticeable difference’ comment.

            You have no future at Sotheby’s, Christie’s or Bonhams.

            There are a multitude of variations. Look at the upper corners of the crests in the band. Look at the indentations at the top of the columns either side of the latch. It is hardly an ‘exact replica’.

    • Not commonly known, the hamster was a highly prized domestic pet amongst the ruling class of late 19th century Europe, revered as much as if not more than the cat was by ancient Egyptian rulers.

      This casket was a very popular model offered by a leading chain of pet funeral homes of the time due to it’s versatility. It could hold a single adult hamster, an entire litter of still-borns, or for the extra service fee, a cremated large dog or goat.

      Has this not been discussed before now?

    • I contacted the Detroit Art Institute today and spoke to the curator. She told me the chest they have was donated in 1969.

    • Get ready for all the fake photoshopped “I found the chest” videos this pic will generate.

      • Packard’s sold a similar bag and partnered with Neiman Marcus to produce them. In the late 70s, it was tres chic for the ladies of Dallas to attend social and charity functions adorning a Chippewa Shoulder Bag. In the early 80s, J. Peterman would offer what they claimed to be a genuine Chippewa shoulder bag, but what was proven to be just a cheap Guatemalan knock off.

        • As Peterman might say:
          Adjustable strap, imported glass beads, and naturally spun wool with silk tassles. perfect for jumping into a canoe.
          kudos aardvark on a job.. done.

  63. Most searchers seems to put too much emphasis on the word “nigh” to be left, but I think Fenn just used that word to be in rhyme with the word “high” two lines below. I think it should be interpreted to mean just “near” to tell us that together with “drawing”, the time to get to the end (of the creek to find the blaze) is not going to be short but rather much longer than one can expect.

    — MajinKing

    • I think its two creeks, do not take the one that relates to paddle, instead take the one with heavy loads water hi, thats your creek. So your at ground level, to look down, you must climb the knoll quickest to were you are from your creek, its a great view from there, then look down. Walaw

    • Every stanza, every sentence, every phrase, the title, every word, every letter, even the capitalization and punctuation is on purpose. Nothing, not the slightest detail, is an accident. It’s all carefully planned. My opinion.

      • Hyperbole, IMO. Forrest has said that you can’t ignore any nouns, but he has never said that you can’t subdivide a split infinitive, catch and release a dangling participle, or unhitch a conjunction. Just my way of saying that maybe only 98% of the words are necessary for a solution.

        • Ok JW … 98%. I could concede to that. Maybe I got carried away. Just making the point that the poem is very well crafted.

      • if you mean the mouth of a creek, you can skip the rest:

        but if you mean the beginning of a creek? then, the “beginning” is well…relative, to not only the season, it is to the year, and then to someone’s random definition of “beginning”… unless it starts from a year round spring, and some springs have a habit of changing where they feel like coming out of the ground.

        so it would simply be good fortune to find a (or the) blaze at the “beginning” of a creek.

        to put it in succinct terms, finding the “beginning” of a stream is like trying to find the “beginning” of a prairie dog colony.

        mouths of creeks are not too stable either, heck the path they take is many times random from year to year.

        the little bighorn river in just the stretch of the little bighorn battle field including reno’s attack has changed its foot print completely in the interim 150 years. so much so that I was trying to find a hill clearly marked on a map of the time with (now that I realize, a very accurate river depiction), found finally after realizing that the shape of the river from that time could be seen clearly as a dry scar underlaying the current river like a piece of transparency paper shifted and turned 90 degrees one way, then flipped another way and rendered in black and grey, and otherwise fully unrecognizable from current river flow.

        if one is to believe that the blaze is to last 1000 yrs, it better not be anywhere near a river at ground level, beginning, middle, or end.

        if a creek is involved, the blaze is big, High, and granite hard.

        • Well stated, Writis. Your opinion that the “beginning” of a creek is changeable over time is correct, even over human time spans covering only hundreds of years.

          Your next to last sentence:
          “if one is to believe that the blaze is to last 1000 yrs, it better not be anywhere near a river at ground level, beginning, middle, or end.”
          From geological principles this is true. Even if the treasure site is near a tributary creek rather than a major river. But is the blaze the same as the tc location ?

          Your last sentence:
          “if a creek is involved, the blaze is big, High, and granite hard”

          This makes sense to me. But is this “blaze” a nearby rock face or something more distant like for instance a spectacular view of the Rocky Mts ? The words you used above fall more in line with the latter (distant) possibility to me ( big, high, granite). Just pondering.

  64. Haven’t heard as of late; Ken, Jake, Lugnuts, Seeker, etc. Are you guys just lurking or tired of the rehashes of topics? Or are you all trying to stay warm for now? Drop in just to let us know your fine!


    • Hi CharlieM … we have at least 3 Kens in this forum; don’t know if you are referring to me in particular.

      A lot of what is discussed these days is stuff that has been discussed over and over and over. So I see no reason to comment on ideas, theories, beliefs, or general locations that to me have become … stale.

      Also, I have noticed a cynical trend in treasure hunt discussions, especially elsewhere. Yet even here, the questioning of some look-a-like chest implies doubt about Forrest Fenn. And I’m not going to support that kind of discussion. Kinda wish these doubters would just go away.

      Ken (in Texas) 🙂

      • Where I’m visiting (Rochester Mn.), the local sheriff reports that three dogs froze to death stuck to fire plugs. Right now the temperature says it’s minus 28 degrees (without the windchill).

        Due to the weather the special lecture: “Doing your part in stopping global warming” was canceled at the library.

        It also struck me odd that everyone here must be employed and there are no homeless, not one. Since I have been here I haven’t seen any of those fellas along the intersections with a cardboard sign looking forlorn and “broke and homeless”. Apparently whatever social program the local politicians instituted to help those poor fellas has worked.

        A funny thing happened to me yesterday when I walked in the front door of the Mayo Clinic. This older fella holding the door for me, was saying “Hello” to me when his jaw locked in mid word. When that happened I instantly realized that it was so cold outside that Hello had indeed frozen over.

        Best regards from the North pole; and don’t fall for sticking your tongue to the flagpole trick…

        1F and the Deputy

        Best regards;

    • I am mostly “Chase-Off” from the winter solstice holidays until around the spring equinox. With a check-in around 6 Questions Day to see if the porcupine saw its shadow.

      Ya gotta give your brain a little chance periodically to sneak up on the poem and maybe catch a peek at it in a new light.

      See ya ’round St Patties or thereabouts.


  65. Jewelry boxes were once called jewelry caskets. Also, the curator at the Detroit Art Institute told me today the chest they have was donated in 1969.

  66. I’ve been severely distressed about some comments FF wrote until I finally figured out what he was saying. Oh, I feel better now!

    p 145, TTOTC. “what I’ve learned that’s most important is that both countries and people should know enough to just leave other folks alone and do a better job of protecting our planet.”

    I was fine with that comment. It was the next one that upset me.

    p 124, TFTW
    “”Our cry should be “Let’s just leave other folks alone unless they attack us. And if they do, let’s not fight back with rifles and hand grenades. It’s stupid for so many young men and women to be killed by land mines, roadside bombsand snipers when we have such awsome technologies available.”

    What? My first thought was he was suggesting we blow up countries with nuclear bombs. Aren’t they the technologies we have available?

    NO! I had to read a few more stories before I figured it out. He is not suggesting we use weapons of mass destruction. He is suggesting we use words to interact with people in a way that can save lives. I just feel so much better now that I have this figured out!


    • Indeed. I would be gobsmacked if Forrest were to suggest using bigger and deadlier weapons. That is pretty much the exact *opposite* of the Forrest who wrote “My War For Me” in TTOTC. He strikes me as a man who has seen firsthand the horrors and stupidity of war, and has committed himself to a philosophy of compassion and peace.

  67. It’s wonderful that new people are getting involved in The Chase. I would suggest that before the snows melt another Safety First in some form is promoted on here and elsewhere. The Medallions could get some people in trouble too. Just food for thought. Be safe everyone.

  68. Dal can you or someone elaborate on that chest found in Detroit institute of Arts that is a duplicate of the chest Forrest hid? I assumed Forrest’s chest was unique. The curator commented there are probably a couple of chests out there like that one. Detroit states it’s chest is from the 1800’s is Forrest’s the original? Dated about 1150?

    • Hi Arnold –

      Forrest did not say his chest dates to any time

      He wrote in The Thrill of The Chase that an “expert” said it could date to the trntch century. I am not quoting it but that text should appear on tjenpage before the poem, maybe 129 or the 127.


  69. CharlieM –

    All of the above.

    But mainly I am a person that believes that the area where the TC resides has more or less been agreed upon by a number of chasers.

    There isn’t much point to discussing other areas or theories. Also some of the chasers that feel this way, mainly Zap, don’t see the value in working the remaining clues or subsequent search together.

    So, there’s not much to talk about.


  70. I have something to think about. Some feel that one can drive to wwwh, simply based upon what F said about walking from his car twice to hide the treasure, or F followed the clues when he hid the treasure, and there is no other way. [paraphrased]

    What about, it might not be practicable to even drive to wwwh. Why can’t it be that wwwh has no road or trail to it, but can be done so using a map or GE, F never did say how he followed the clues when he hid the tc. Question is how does one arrive at wwwh, was it done on foot, with a vehicle, with a map or from memory?

    Forrest has told us to look at the big picture. Is the big picture the overall scheme of things or is it a map, or GE? I guess my question is, can you convince me one way or another?

    • Charlie,

      it is of my opinion that one does not need to go to wwwh or canyon down. To me BOTG starts at …pibhoB.
      We only need to know where wwh and which canyon down in order to find hoB.

      There are those that believe all of the clues are in close proximity to one another however I believe there are miles from wwh to pibhoB.

      • Rick, would be interested to know how you arrived at no need to go to wwwh or canyon down. I have an independent idea about BOTG which suggests a start at pibhoB. I also believe there may be miles between wwh to pibhoB.

    • ** ** ** CM observed “. . . F never did say how he followed the clues when he hid the tc.” ** ** **

      True, Charlie, and the following provides at least a little wiggle room.

      “It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, AT LEAST IN THEIR MIND.” (emphasis added; source follows below)

      From thefenndiagrams Fourth Q & A:

      ** ** ** Q. When you wrote the poem, did you start with the first clue or the ninth?

      A. ”I knew all along where I wanted to hide the treasure so I didn’t need a map or any information to write the poem. Everything was in my head. It took me a while to get the wording exactly how I wanted it. Counting the clues and hiding the chest came later. It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, at least in their mind.” ** ** **


      • This is one of my favorites… and was not noticed for years. It blows a lot of theories out of the water…

      • Jake,

        The question is, how did he follow the clues when he hid the treasure and how do we follow the clues? The question is basically the same as how does one start at the first clue. I guess this could include all clues, how is it done, by foot, car/foot, map plus car/foot or any other combination?

        The one thing that keeps nagging at me is geography, does this indicate a map must be used for all the 8 clues prior to actually being there? I’m assuming the 9th clue requires to be physically at the hiding place.

        • This also brings up part of a quote from F “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who have no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”f

          This at least to me, is indicating that all the clues need to be found beforehand to retrieve the tc. So I’m thinking follow the clues via a map.

          Just Say’n

          • There are those that believe they know what the blaze is. I believe a person will need to be in the general location to figure out what The blaze is.

          • I met ff and told him in aug 2013 what I thought the blaze was, he said, well maybe I should not say what he said, but I could not read if I was right or not from what he said. But he did not laugh, at least not out loud, at that time.

      • This makes you wonder if the entire solution can be predetermined in your mind first without even looking at a map, or considering a location.

  71. not far but to far to walk goes for all the clues – wwwh is the gate way to the tc – if you do not go through the door you will not get in- imo

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