Where Warm Waters Halt…Part Fifteen

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This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion continue…

dal…

615 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…Part Fifteen

  1. Great topic, Dal. I’m still pursuing all of my original solves but open to sharing one that may or may not have potential. I will be spending a half day there in mid-June before catching a flight back to Milwaukee.

    Based on a conversation I first saw here in this Blog, I found a potential solve that had me near Abiqui, NM. My WWW was Ojo Caliente, with the river flowing into the Rio Chama at Chili, NM and proceeding west to Abiqui. Initially, I had looked at putting into the Rio Chama at a home owned by an Artist named Brown. After some exploration, I found a wonderful little creek called Canyones Creek where I trudged up (with waders) searching the banks of the river. Georgia O’keefe made this area her home.

    During my first expeditation, I was hung up by tribal land and private property. Still, there is something about this place that has potential. And, I may visit again this next trip.

    • have fun Dal its in the heart of the mountains some where warm waters halt at the heart good luck my friend

      • Michael Raymond it is an extra enchanting area. I go there as well. Have you ever considered the Caldera Rims as perhaps WWWH ? The Los Alamos area is with multiple caldera with the same enclosed hot springs as Yellowstone just at one third the scale.

        • Sorry for the late response, Bradley. I missed the notification of your reply to my comment.

          I had heard recently abut Los Alamost and the caldera. I hadn’t considered this. One thing that may rule out my Abiquiu search area is that it’s not necessarily in the mountains. Maybe Los Alamos is.

          Thanks for sharing.

    • I’ve never seen this referred to in this way, if it has been my apologies. I know Forrest said “don’t mess with my poem.” I’m only changing words and messing with it, to get my question across to where it’s under stood. I’ve wondered for a while if the 1st clue is supposed to read 1 of 2 ways. The first, and easiest/most practical.

      Begin it where warm waters halt,
      Then take it in the canyon down , not far, but too far to walk, then put in the home of Brown. As in step one is WWWH, step 2 is the canyon down, step 3 is not far but TFTW step 4 is home of Brown.

      Or is it supposed to read.?
      Begin it WWWH and take it in the canyon down, the canyon down is not far, but too far to walk so put in below the home of Brown. As in step one is WWWH, step 2 is Below the home of Brown. As in the home of brown is where you “put in” to take the canyon down.

      Again I’m only adding and changing words/messing with the poem to try to elaborate on the question I’m asking.

      Any thoughts. Thanks.

  2. I had one that I was sure was the spot but my thinking has since changed, maybe it’s not a place so to speak. he does use the word waters in a plural sense. what does that mean if we’re not looking for a place?

  3. I had one that I was sure was the spot but my thinking has since changed, maybe it’s not a place so to speak. he does use the word waters in a plural sense. what does that mean if we’re not looking for a place? could we be looking for a path?

  4. When you define what “IT” is you shall find the correct Warm Waters Halt..One mans opinion..Just coming out of hibernation–That was one long winter..

  5. He gave us one correct answer already:

    “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. *LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE*, there are no short cuts.” ff

    So that one’s easy –

    Begin it in the Rocky Mountains north of Santa Fe.

    It’s the *next* step that tangles my bootlaces every time out.

    (Anyone know any little girls in India that’d help a brother out?)

  6. J A Kraven. I agree that what you quote is an answer for it. Makes sense to me . IMO .

  7. Hello Searchers,
    I am curious if their has been discussion of the K-T boundary layer ( extinction event layer ) as blaze arrived at from WWWH? Several parks in the Rockies feature the layer where it pops out.

    • First I have heard of it. I’ve heard of lignite beds suggested for home of Brown. I think either is specialized knowledge, when the only specialized knowledge f seems to think will help is a “comprehensive knowledge of geography.” As we know, imagination is more important than knowledge.

      It’s a clever blaze if your audience is geologists, though.

  8. I am not sure the warm salty waters will ever halt their flowing, as we follow the Memorial Paths from the top of the map at thru a Vale of Tears. I stopped at Cuba to see the National Winner Pinion Tree ( 61 feet )
    Then went up to soak my Kidney in the hot springs.
    https://www.anyplaceamerica.com/directory/nm/sandoval-county-35043/springs/kidney-and-stomach-trouble-spring-902598/
    Footbath Spring

    From there it`s Canyon Down to See the Giant Footprint Ruins and Gilman Tunnels where I stop at Porter Landing. From there it`s a short walk up Old Peggy Mesa Road for a look around.

    Like to chat with anyone who would like to search in July

  9. I suspect it can’t be taken literally siince it won’t lead to a unique enough landmark to easily find on a map, yet it has to be clear once the clue is solved that it can be only one place to look. It can’t be too complex for an ordinary mind or too vague. It may have to do with altitude, but I do not know how. Every step has to be logical

  10. I have to ask if anyone has ever considered Otowi as WWWH. Consider – The definition of Otowi is “gap where water sinks”. If you look at this in light of the NM fishing regs, then the warm water fishing regs would HALT where waters sink. Any thoughts ???

    • I did, and tried some not so great arm chair solves in the general area — staying away, of course, from ending next to the Rio Grande. I don’t think I’m the only one to play with that idea.

  11. At least we know what the first clue is in the poem.
    If you know where warm waters halt is in Fenn’s mind and poem, I think you have a fighting chance to find the bomb.

    Some leave out “warm” for whatever reason or don’t even think it’s about “waters” or water.
    Begin it (your quest) where warm (not cold or hot) waters (H20) halt (stop).
    Pretty straightforward to me and my opinion on how to read this line in the poem which is the 1st clue as Fenn stated.

    • Begin “It” “w” (here) = Begin wit
      warm waters (and the letter “h”) alt( or alternate) =
      h warm waters(alt).
      Whole message = Begin with warm water salt.
      = Epsom.
      Very straightforward, goes with the next line:
      And take it in the canyon down=
      And (take “it” in the canyon down) = And canyon down it.
      = And (cany “on” d) own it. = And candy own it.
      = city. ( “c” and “y” own “it”)
      So, Begin with Epsom And city.
      (a place dear to him= Deer)
      (to rest his bones= Lodge).
      The Deer valley got it’s name from all the deer that would come down the mountains to feed on all the “salt deposits” of the area. At one point, the whole area was active and part of the Yellowstone geyser system, but is now ‘dormant”. (warm waters halt)
      Just saying Deer Valley would be a guess, but in solving the poem, the place comes out. You begin with 4 and 6. Hints to that are in the book, ‘pic pg. 57. (Skippy upside down makes a “4”, in the center of the 4 is a “1,5, and a circle, or 46 degrees.)There are more hints, but that’s how I see it. The first clue is going to make up many things, found in his stories. To find it takes a solve of the whole poem, IMO. Cannot solve for it by just that line. In fact, and we all know, there is no answer to that line anywhere from what f has told us. He has not supplied the answer to that clue, it must be found. Find the end, you will find the beginning, IMO. Look at the “big picture”.

  12. Perhaps, “LOOK AT THE BIG PICTURE*, there are no short cuts.” ff, is the antithesis for “Tunnel vision conception” of this clue? And ” there are no short cuts” , is a nod to “too far to walk”?

    Could he be implying a shadow reflection, such as:

    “Begin it where warm waters halt”
    “Not far,but too far to walk ”

    Possible translative to the above quote:

    “Look at the big picture”
    “There are no short cuts”

    I dunno, just me musing ideas. IMO .

    • Telegram for “Mr Tesla”: “Your patented Idea for the discovery of WWWH has been filed with/in the Library of Congress and duly noted that the big border controversy in Too Far To Walk is now revealed in the “Big Picture” and it is not Canada, it’s Mexico. Canada was too cold and Mexico was bold, just a hint from the true/real meaning of Warm.

      Good catch.

      TT, a friend of Edison, even though he and Einstein had a few things wrong with their imagination, and misspelled knowlege, they were on the right TRACK, at the edge of something great. Just 5 degrees off, at the 5th line of the poem.

      • I think you guys are talking about railroads and borders on maps. Would you mind being a bit more clear for my purpose of understanding. I believe I gather some of your inside conversation and would like to learn more if you are willing to share your knowledge with a rookie. Thank you. I didn’t know these guys mispelled the word knowlege.

  13. I’ve been in the chase since 2013. I starter searching where rivers changed temperature and hot spring flowing into larger water systems.Still have not found WWWH but, I did manage to to find several spots to take a long relaxing soak
    to ponder my next steps.
    leo

  14. I don’t believe mr
    Forrest treasure hunt has grown cold.i think alot of people are still in this chase.i wish he was able to give us a story once in awhile. Maybe thru Shiloh, if forrest can’t do the computer anymore. Forrest was lost and found himself
    It doesn’t matter what people think of you.he knows himself and he is happy and content. I think he wants us to go find ourselves
    What makes us tick.find your lot in life and be content and happy.the key to happiness is ourselves. Everyone has to find their own contentment and be happy with what we have in life.help others and you’ll feel better about yourself. It’s more blessed to give than to get

    • Virginia Diane,

      I believe that some of what you say is why Forrest chose this place of where he hid indulgence. I believe this place ” the big picture” is a place where he found “comfort” and it helped heal from what cancer had taken away. A place that made him happy as he enjoyed all that it offered. Maybe even at this place he took time to think of old memoiries and transcribe them for his book. Just maybe that special someone, that once shared this place, could of even helped in the making of this place the “why” he secreted his treasure here.

      Maybe all these things posted we will not know if true, but at least it’s what I believe happened.

      So yes, go find yourself while your on your Fenn poem adventure, and just maybe you’ll come across a little bronze box filled will things that most can only imagine.

      Good luck,
      Bur

    • I agree Virginia. Cheryl Crow said, ‘Make no mistake, happiness is a decision you make.’

  15. Once upon a time at Christmas several years ago. My little cousins got into it as children do.The older boy put gum in his little sisters hair. It caused quite a scene. After the boy was dealt with and sent to his room, the task was to try to calm the girl down. Her father sat on the floor with her and explained that he would have to use a pair of scissors to cut the gum out. She was not happy about that. She started to cry all over again. To be honest, I was tired of this whole situation at this point, it was going on way to long. So, as her father started to cut the gum outta her hair and while she cried, I said, “HEY” and she looked at me crying, and I said, “Why are you crying!” and I made a goofy face. Immediately, the place where warm waters were flowing from her beautiful little eyes seemed to transform from a saddened lonely helplessness into a whole world of happiness. Her pain had halted. And comfort set in.

    • Pauley-
      Next time use peanut butter. No need to cut out the hair. Just work the peanut butter into the tangled mess. Soon the gum will release and you can wash the debris down the shower drain.

      1F

  16. I been wondering if WWWH could be the cemetery at Genesis Creek. And TINTCD is
    just take the trail. Like the grand canyon. You Y on the trail west of Grizzly area.
    Flower fields. Looking for Place on genesis creek Large rock to put Soda under.
    Near Large White Bolder looks like horse blaze. Something like that. Or near the war
    memorial Close to Santa Fe. I read several umbilical comments from him.
    At his spot and a ladies grandmother from west Yellowstone he was umbilical
    tied to all those he fished with there. And he was one Y/O first summer in Yellowstone.
    Almost born there. Being surprised where it is at. sounds like at a public place.
    He really could not have trekked very far anyway. He didn’t go that far I think.
    It would not surprise me if it was in the genesis creek area.
    My other wonder is would all that fit in that chest. Wonder if anybody has tried that.
    Where is FF shadow at. Where has it been. Read the book read the poem.
    O well back to no chest land…

    • Maybe it is a 2 mile walk from WWWH. So if Genesis creek trail is 13.4 miles.
      To far. And 2 miles to walk. 1 mile in and 1 mile out. Twice in 1 afternoon.
      4 miles total. TFTW a 2 mile walk down a long trail somewhere. That would be 8 miles . Just to far… Nothing 1 mile down that trail. O well…

    • I was thinking Genesis Creek could be “There’ll be no paddle up your creek” not WWWH. There’ll be no paddle because its a trail that starts close to the cemetery but eventually gets near the creek.
      I can see the downed trees up the creek being “heavy loads” but water high is a mystery to me unless it’s just water up there but doesn’t seem to be specific enough.
      I still keep this area in mind as long as it’s under 3 miles from the parking spot.

      • The book and poem seem like in the West Yellowstone area.
        Almost seems like he hints at where he spent the summer cutting
        lodge pole pines. Yet did he have a special place he went to from the cabin. Fish and bring back flowers for his mother. Or she liked the
        fields there. I guess Trout made it from the lake there. Hiding a
        soda in the stream. Indian history in the four corners in NW New
        Mexico. One of the 5 big tribes. I think he wanted to forget Vietnam.
        Umbilical he seems to refer to Family really. Long Ago times.
        Back to no Chest land again…Some where North of Santa Fe.
        As far as I have gotten.

        • Sandy Butte is 3 miles down the trail. But 12 miles in one afternoon. He could walk there and back in 1 afternoon
          in 2 different days. On top of that sandy butte hill thing you can
          see Henrys Lake Mountain. Look down on the flower fields.
          smell flowers and pines and see animals and mountains.
          Maybe his mom told him she wished she could live on top of that hill and look down on the fields. Well that’s to far fetched.
          There is the bicycle thing. He rode to Yellowstone from the
          cabin. Throw it in the high water at 7 mile bridge.
          I wish FF would tell a new story that has a hint in it.
          Being surprised where it is at. Madison Camp Ground.
          Some public place would be a surprise.
          Happy Hunting…

          • Yes, Happy hunting and remember what Fenn said about swimming in the Madison near his summer home.
            It’s cold…
            It appears warm waters halt there.

      • I’m lazy, where is Genesis Creek? If in Yellowstone or West Yellowstone, I would ditch the thought of the chest being there.

        • My bad, I spelled it wrong:
          Gneiss Creek and most of it is in YNP but it’s in the free part of the park where you don’t have to pay or go through any gates which I ruled out for where the treasure may be but I can live with the free hike with no gates.

          • Just a heads up on Gneiss creek. It’s a grizzly sanctuary area closed in the spring until Jun 30. No off trail hiking permitted which helped me to eliminate that area.

          • Thanks Matt, I did not know that they close that area until after summer starts.
            I wouldn’t eliminate the area completely but you helped me downgrade it below 50 percent where I have other trails that need more attention. Staying on trails all the time doesn’t cut it for me.

  17. I’m not going to go on and on about Rolling Rock beer, although it does come from . . . .

    . . . . ta-da . . . St. Louis.

    • Wait just a minute. Rolling Rock beer comes from Rolling Rock, PA, doesn’t it? I remember going there when I was a kid, to see a horse show. You know, where horses jump over fences and water holes. It was definitely Rolling Rock. Beep. Beep.

      • Rolling Rock is (or rather was) from Latrobe, Pennsylvania.

        The “St Louis” is only since (and because) Anheuser-Busch (of St Louis) bought the brand a dozen years ago or so.

        Since that purchase it’s now brewed in New Jersey, and should be avoided.

        Jake

          • Hot tip, Road’R, I’ll check it out.

            I used to keep a Box o’ Rocks around in the summertime, but the new stuff is useless.

            Jake

          • Western beer I discovered on one trip was prickly pear from Lewis and Clark.not too fruity, just nice. When I was broke and hungry in a foreign land once I lived on prickly pears, so I’m partial-

      • I do lol … Rolling Rock is / was a local beer brewed in Latrobe, PA.. I don’t drink, but I know at the local distributors an 18 pack, 12 oz, cans is on special for $9.98.
        Legend has it “Old Latrobe” was the name of a horse that was bet upon and the win allowed them to open the brewery.

  18. Shows how much I pay attention. It is Gneiss. Made with water from the Madison.
    Is the poem a map or putting an X on a map. Are some of the clues things you see from
    the spot. Like a mountain lake. A creek. A stand of lodge pole pines.
    I better quit while I am not ahead. I am not sure where I got Genesis from.
    Well it is kind of funny..
    Happy hunting.

    • Well if you do take Gneiss creek trail down it ends at Madison canyon.
      Never mind.
      Happy Hunting. Over…

      • Part of a comprehensive knowledge of geography is knowing which way the creeks and rivers flow.

        • J A–

          As a casual observation, I have noted most creeks and rivers run downhill…

          However, my Grandfather (from Illinois) would INSIST that along some stretches of the highway, the river was running uphill. This would cause a commotion and we would have to stop the car and survey the lay of the land, only to repeat the cycle every 10 miles or so. (He was also aMAZEd corn could grow in the red soil around red rocks, Colorado too)

          Sooo….not everything is as it first appears. I believe Bubba and Skippy had ample time to observe and entertain themselves with these deceptive phenomena as they traversed the back roads between Texas and Montana. IMO

          Where’s my deputy?

          1F

          • Hey-O, Billy –

            ‘Round here (Larimer County CO) there’s an irrigation ditch that clearly runs *up* the west side of Bingham Hill for a stretch. Popular spot to show to visitors.

            It was featured in Ripley’s at one time, believe it or not.

            (I was narrowly observing that Gneiss Creek isn’t ” . . . made with water from the Madison”, but the other which way ’round.)

            Jake

          • This is for Jake from another Larimer County resident…which canal runs uphill? The one behind the old Water Works building?

          • Oops…nevermind. I see it on the topo map. I will have to go inspect this phenomenon this weekend.

          • Colo’Mon –

            Pleasant Valley Canal, on the Bellvue side of Bingham Hill.

            Bingham Hill Road crosses the canal, and that’s the observation spot. Some years the vegetation along the ditch was high enough to obscure the view (I haven’t stopped at the spot for years – couldn’t tell you whether it still even runs).

          • Jake, ColoMtnMan –
            I lived in the Bellvue and LaPorte area for 20+ years, and Bingham Hill was my standard run several times a week. I never knew that ditch ran uphill!! What a DA I am. Anyhoo, thanks for the info and if you are checking THAT out, peruse the little cemetery on the north side of the road. A lot of early LaPorte history lies buried there.

        • Not sure if taking a trail south is down. I know after nine
          days he let the horse run free. Wait that’s not it.
          Myself, I like looking in Yellowstone area. After reading the
          book and poem. The biggest thing is I have learned a ton
          about Yellowstone. Not sure why that is. And I moved on a
          lot form trying to figure it out.

  19. If the trail ends where we start, then isn’t the treasure chest WWWH? Just asking someone who thinks they understand what’s going on. I sure don’t. Why go in circles when you’re already there? Right? It’s puzzling.

    • Roady–

      I’m not sure where you decided the Chase leads you back to the beginning… We’re not playing golf here. (Although there are a couple of scrapbook stories with a golf theme) I would say though, the Chase leads like more of a dog leg to the left. IMO. If you have a slice, you’re screwed. IMO

      1F

      • Sometimes Mr. Billy, I get the feeling ole man Fenn went out drinking with a Scot before he invited the Chase. I got the idea after watching Robin Williams explain how the Scottish invented golf. But what do I know.

          • Roady–

            Maybe you are right…
            Nine clues in the poem..
            Nine hole in golf….would bring you back to your starting place.
            Hummmm….

            1F

          • Nine holes and nine innings were both always intriguing possibilities.

            I’ve managed to get to a lot of the diamonds in the Colorado Rockies, and always have a nice time whether a game’s on or not.

            I can tell you though that those SOB’s at a lot of the golf courses up there, have no sense of humor at all. They’d’a run him off for sure if he’d ever tried to hide a chest on one.

            Jake

          • Actually, I think he might be. I like the Scotts – the are responsible for so many things we use everyday – like tape, my Dad’s favorite booze, my son’s dog, the game my g-kids play outside on the sidewalk and best of all my favorite actor, Sean Connery. When I was a kid, my siblings and I always built pillow castles and forts and pretended we were knights.

        • Or this…J. R. R. Tolkien, a professional philologist, nodded to the derivation from the Dutch word for club in his 1937 fantasy novel The Hobbit. There he mentions (tongue-in-cheek) that the game of golf was invented when a club-wielding hobbit knocked the head off a goblin named Golfimbul, and the head sailed through the air and landed in a rabbit hole.

  20. While E Coyote is a super genius. No matter where he gets his gadgets from, be it ACME or Walmart it won’t work. RoadRunner always prevails. It’s poetic justice at its finest. It’s the Looney Tune way. Have a great day searchers.
    “Beep beep!”

    • Hey Road Runner
      Do you have any JAX BEER thats all DIZZY DEAN and I drink that other stuff is for kids and old women. Clint

      • Ok, look, … drinking beer could be your ticket to finding WWWH, if you get my drift. …

        • RoadRunner Hi
          Yes I know all about WWWH and where it is located ,snow snow go a way can’t hardly wait
          to put botg.Clint

          • IMHO – You are gonna be back in the slammer soon if you don’t watch out. I’m sure your PO will recommend to the judge that your probation should be revoked. So much for your freedom – LOL!

    • It was, a long time ago. When there were about 350 serious searchers.
      Before an additional 350 billion non-serious folks “joined” the hunt (mostly for social reasons, instead of having any interest in searching in the Rockies).

      I, conversely (oh, the ironic choice of words) like to say something about the subject. I think that since FF apparently likes to talk about his experiences in life, including the sad ones, “warm waters” may in a *roundabout* way refer to tears, blood, and sweat. Which reminds me: He seems to know about some of the same old songs and musical groups as I do, even though he’s about 20 years older than *I am*. That reminds me of one: “I am, I said” by Neil Diamond.

  21. Maybe you haven’t picked up on this, but I’m more of a plodder thaN a quick thinker, IMO.

  22. Hey Joe,

    Blood Sweat and Tears….Cowboys and Indians, beats anything ND ever did.

  23. Why is it that sherif billy and I are the only 2 that seem to be put in jail?

    Dal mentioned at the top of this page that This is a place to talk about where warm waters halt and to inform and help others especially the people who are new to the chase and may need a leg up.

    Making vainly vague comments to upset others and arouse ones own superlative self indulgences is not helping anyone.

    If you say you found a clue regarding something that is affiliated with the chase, then explain it! Don’t sit there and beat around the bush and play games, man up and talk the talk and tell us what it is you THINK you’ve found. Even a child knows that if you don’t have anything good to say don’t say anything at all. Be an adult, other+wise stay home and play canasta!

    This has been a public service announcement!

    • So, aaahhh what’s this Jax beer clue you guys are talkin about, I haven’t a clue, can someone help please? Just a hint please?

      • Hint from google “The name Jax is an English baby name. In English the meaning of the name Jax is: God has been gracious; has shown favor. Based on John or Jacques.”

        class dismissed

        1f

        • Sherif billy

          So……. you’re saying Jax beer leads to an orphanage or something?

          Just meet me in the yard and we’ll find the treasure together! Bring your bolt cutters, if we get separated just leave me a note in a small metal box with a picture of the titanic on it buried under a piece of volcanic glass at the base of the old oak tree next to that rock wall in the hay field up in buxton, then we’ll meet up in Zihuatanejo, let um try ta find us there!

        • JAXX … fights through any curve ball life throws at him. I like this definition too. Or JAX => Jacks => Jacksonville => Duvall => in the valley => in the canyon => “It’s in the hole” (PGA Tour lingo from the gallery after drinking a six pack of JAX beer … I’m guessing)

          • I suspect that Dizzy Dean and Jax Beer, considered either
            separately or together, amount to little more than a rabbit
            hole at best. Go back to the poem. All IMO.

    • PT, you wrote, “…Don’t sit there and beat around the bush and …)

      But isn’t that the point of beating around the bush – to see if anything comes out of it??

      • Joe – you are right on. Playing Forrest’s game and that’s how you play the game. Gonna get me a good hound dog who keeps his nose to the ground and knows how to help filter through all this stuff.

          • Sometimes it just takes a pinch of this and a pinch of that and you got a winning recipe – but hard to duplicate since those ingredients are not measured and often times kept secret.

          • wwwamericana, your talk of a ‘recipe’ makes me think of a Snoop Dogg quip from an interview he did about the beginnings of rap music I believe, “when you makin magic, the ingredients don’t com wit instructions. Ya just gotta know how to put that sh*& togetha.”

            It is hilarious.

  24. Hi Joe
    You must fallow the recipe ,that is why no body has found TC
    Forrests recipe is vary hard to fallow until you get on his wave.
    Clint

  25. Recipes recipe. In my research I just notice some site had a picture out of order and
    the distance wrong. Reading a story about fishing in my current area of interest.
    I noticed they said you start going down hill before reaching the draw of the creek.
    WWWH . looking at it being Blood. HOB brown bear. Area has been searched plenty.
    But I still think it is in there. If only a Spark could be a blaze. That would be a nice creek rock.
    I think I will stick with researching this area. I guess you can not count out areas people have
    already searched. Since I will only ever be an armchair searcher. It don’t matter anyway.
    The thrill of the Google search.. Happy Hunting…

  26. Ok folks. this is what I think could be to the warm waters halting. Obstruction is another word for halting. So I think, the warm waters halt at the Buffalo Bill Dam, there is just so much evidence of him at the Buffalo Bill museum. That great dam they built is really one to see. I took pictures of everything in the museum other than the paintings and concluded that he is also guiding you by looking at the displays. Bill Codys Ranch is also on the way to Cody or Yellowstone, Fenn would of had to pass that everytime they went to west Yellowstone.

  27. Where Do Warm Waters Halt Imagination

    Do we really know the people we know? Friends, neighbors, co-workers, business associates, we all know lots of different people but do we really know them.

    How many people do we know that walk the straight and narrow line, doing the right thing all of the time. What makes people travel in the grey areas of life, doing things they know they shouldn’t be doing. Are they self-centered, chasing the almighty dollar, cheaters getting theirs or just meeting life’s challenges trying to do the best they can do. Do we really know their life’s challenges, what they are thinking, feeling or even planning, their dark slide, their bright side? Lots of different challenges and motivations we humans have through our travels in this life.

    When we say we know that person it is based on the experiences we shared with them. And with that we imagine we know who they are. But do we really don’t know them or just imagine who they are?

    Forest has suggested we use our imagination, but not knowing Forrest I can only imagine who he is by what I have read. I imagine Forrest might have had an apifiny, a realization, sudden understanding of life, during his fight with cancer. I would also imagine him to also having that same apifiny with his archaeology work after the 2009 FBI raid on his house. Some believe he hide the chest shortly thereafter. I imagine, maybe, that raid was a life challenge for him and maybe a motivation to finally hide the chest.

    I would also imagine that an 80 year old man, who was loved by his family, missing for a few days would also grab the attention of those near to him. I would also imagine with that the hidden chest would be within a day’s travel, back and forth. And I can’t imagine anyone hiding a treasure would openly speak of the location where it was hidden.

    So I imagine the location will not be found in any of his books. But he has been to this special location many times, physically and in his mind. I imagine it to be special place to him because his own life’s challenges and experiences, possibly a place he has not shared with anyone. As he has shared in the poem, As I have gone alone in there, what is his relationship with the “there” that he has not shared with anyone. I imagine it to be a special place where he could fly into the area without being detected. I also imagine it to be a place that is not well traveled and a place where his life’s work has some meaning.

    In my papers that can be found on this site, I give an examples and possibilities, all located within Hinsdale and Mineral counties in Colorado. I think this area is not on any searches top ten locations. A place less traveled in many regards and to me all of the poem pieces fit.

    Last week I discovered Trouble Hill in Hinsdale County, elevation just under 10,200 ft. Road easy access, maybe a downhill walk from the car when carrying 40 lbs. What is Trouble Hill and why.
    I would imagine maybe a very appropriate name (Trouble Hill) for a man to assess one’s life. Trouble Hill is quite special and a beautiful location. But what got my interest was the Gap at that location, which is physical feature. A mountain gap is usually a naturally occurring gap between mountains. And as I am using Imagination here, I would imagine this to be an excellent location for early Native Americans to trap and hunt game in the Gap. I would also imagine the “gap” qualifies for the definition as a blaze. And an interesting note, the wind blowing through a gap between the mountains can be quite cold. I think imagination and geography might get you closer to the chest.

    Again if you have read my papers, I would put this location in my bucket of possibilities. If one should find the chest at this location. I would like to imagine you would collect the chest, hop in your car and drive to Mr. Fenn’s house, knock on his door and say, Mr. Fenn I think you left this in the Rocky Mountains, hand him the chest, turn and walk away; just to see what he would do. There are some things in life worth more than money.
    3.8172213 -107.2367204

    Doug Meyer

    • I have not found your papers on this site Doug.
      I think WWWH is a place and not a thought.

      • Jake,
        thanks for your post, to find my first paper see the end of this series of post, you will find my name, Doug Meyer. My second paper was posted by Dal here, it is not that easy to find, but if you have an interest you will find it.
        Best regards,
        Doug

        • Still haven’t found your paper(s) Doug.
          I tried (CTRL) (F) as usual and found just a comment and no paper.
          Nothing in “Other’s Adventures” where searchers here share their stories.
          I must be missing something.

          • Jake-
            Doug Meyer’s WWWH page is under “More Info and Musings” ….
            About 20 or so titles down from the top…

            “WWWH…Doug Meyer”

          • Oh crap, I remember those PDF’s.
            Forgot where they were and who wrote them, probably because I have a short attention span and it was titled “confidential”.
            Well, thanks for that Dal and thanks Doug for sharing your confidential papers.
            At this point I will read them again as musings but who knows, maybe it will help me find the treasure but from memory they were nicely written facts and opinions.

          • Doug’s PDF also found very easily under “Treasure Websites and Blogs” at the bottom of the main page. Right under your nose Jake LOL!

          • I think I’m losing my touch Sandy, what little I had anyway.
            Not sure why the find feature failed me but seems to be working now.
            Doug is a really good writer and analyst and gives many different options how to read clues and the poem.

            I agree with some of his writings but I like my own POV better as most here.

            I think his papers are more for newbs and new searchers who need other avenues to think about. Kinda like Seeker but better explanations of ideas.
            I’m past most of that now and will probably not change much in the next few years.

            PS: I’m not a big fan of searching in Colorado…

    • I took a close look at Lake San Cristobal and the Slumgullion Slide area in Hinsdale County back when I was checking out (natural) slide-dammed lakes. (Also because I’d been there pre-chase, and it’s lovely country).

      Big picture, a triangle perched on the Continental Divide with Lake San Cristobal as the north point, Hermit Lakes as the southeast point, and Pole Creek Mountain as the southwest point.

      Most of the published proposals-by-others I’ve seen around this are a bit removed from Hinsdale County.

      Way to the southwest by Cortes, the Dolores River has generated a couple/few, and to the west the Uncompahgre has a few scattered along or near it from Ouray all the way to the Colorado Nat’l Monument.

      To the east, I don’t know of any closer than the endorheic basin around Saguache. Or further northeast, in the Arkansas River drainage.

      Jake

      South and southeast there are folks who like the trains around the New Mexico border.

      Jake

      • (And Doug, you’re the second person in the last couple days messin’ with the If-I-Find-A-Chest Jinx. Hush uppabouddit, eh?)

        • Mr. Kraven,
          Thank you for your post, I find your response interesting. I imagine there is no Jinx, only those that haven’t found the chest. Information, take what you can use and disregard what you can’t.
          Thanks for sharing your thoughts they are useful.
          Doug

    • I think Forrest wants the person who finds it to enjoy each and every thing in it and make a better life for themselves and their family! I dont think he needs it or wants it back and when I find it, and I am working hard on it, I will enjoy and help my handicapped sister get all the help she needs!
      I hope to take it to forrest so he can tell me about ever single thing. He would want that!

    • Doug,
      Any chance of sharing the significance of the cryptic numbers at the end of your post? They look like coordinates to me, but if so the first set has a mis-placed decimal point. They would point to a location east of Ouray CO, and not to the Trouble Hill location (or at least not to the one found on GE). By the way, I like your suggestion of returning the treasure chest to Forrest and walking away. But before walking away I would probably ask him if he could spare a few minutes to explain the “rest of the story” behind the Chase.
      McKendree

    • Kingoffixz,
      Thanks for your post, east of the continental divide, the headwaters of the Rio Grand, but not close to the Rio Grande. The poem pieces fit.
      Good luck.
      Doug

  28. I think the warm waters area is not in a canyon but there is a canyon close by to go down but I wouldn’t walk it cause the poem says so.
    Where = a place on a map
    Warm = comfortable place
    Waters = wet place
    Halt = uncomfortable wet place

    There is obviously more warm waters south of Santa Fe than north seeing it’s closer to the equator where the sun heats all waters more in this area. Though Fenn said nearly all are north of Santa Fe. How could this be?
    What does this tell you?

    Some like a warmer stream joining a colder stream but if the warmer stream is not warm or comfortable then it doesn’t work.

    Some like the Continental Divide but this is a long run and large area and I think Fenn said it’s not a region and don’t think it’s comfortable on that ridge anywhere.

    Some think it’s a lake that warms temporarily in the summer but they all freeze over in the winter so it does halt as all waters do in winter so it doesn’t fit.

    What waters stay warm year round for thousands of years in the Rocky Mountains?

    He must be talking about a warm or hot spring.
    Some of this is IMO.

    • “There is obviously more warm waters south of Santa Fe than north seeing it’s closer to the equator where the sun heats all waters more in this area. Though Fenn said nearly all are north of Santa Fe. How could this be?
      What does this tell you?”
      ———————————————————–
      It tells me you make the same mistake as most other searchers. You take the poem at face value.

      Ken (in Texas)

        • Kee-reckt, T Hunter –

          ” There are *many places in the Rocky Mountains* where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.” ff

      • Yes Ken,
        At face value. If you don’t take it as face value, then you open up trillions & trillions of cans of worms IMO.

        • Actually, Jake, cans of worms are already common specifically because searchers are looking at the poem … at face value.

          Do you think FF would spend 15 years on a piece of writing that could be interpreted so easily and so trivially?

          Do you think FF would have publicly expressed that the search could take a thousand years, if he meant for the poem’s clues to be taken at face value?

          Even after all these years, though there might be one or two searchers who have made progress, I don’t think the searcher community as a whole is anywhere near solving the poem or finding the treasure chest.

          Ken ( in Texas)

  29. @ Ken (in Texas) . Well said.

    It’s like taking votes to decide on which belief is to be used as a truth. Shakespeare happens by and points out that a belief could be false; being as the root of such a word has a be-lie within it. Lol.

    Where warm water halt- there are many beliefs about this combination of words. Where is Shakespeare when I need him.

    • Hello Alsetenash. It is interesting that Shakespeare is mentioned in TTOTC. In “My War For Me,” pages 101-102, in part:

      “…Or Shakespeare, in As You Like It, who wrote that ‘All the world’s a stage and all the men and women merely players. They have their entrances and their exits, and one man is his time plays many parts.’ Okay, Mr. Shakespeare, name just one player or even one part about which you speak! The name may be remembered if it is written, but what of the person? No, each one has faded like the smell of a dying daffodil. No sooner does one depart than another takes its place, again and again, only for the same fate to befall. Did Shakespeare really say, in other words, that most of us come into this world for a little while, are blessed perhaps, then depart and are soon forgotten by history? Of course he did!…”

      Is there any importance for which he’s written? Some may consider Shakespeare may be a hint to “stage” or “amphitheatre”. Perhaps something to do with Old English, Old Masters, or time. Maybe nothing at all, yet I can’t help but think there is.

      Do you recall Mr. Fenn stating he wished he learned how to play the cello?

      https://mysteriouswritings.com/any-regrets-mr-fenn/

      In this, he also speaks of fault lines and time, which we’ve read before; faults and time. I believe I posted one the other day, “Lost My Spot,” if I recall correctly. If this isn’t the one, I believe there are others, such as the time he posted about the fried pies/desserts at one of the Fennborees, which can be found on Dal’s blog. Cellist also play on stages/chambers.

      This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

    • Alsetenash – “Heare”!

      See also: that original epitaph with marble gaze…

      “A fool thinks himself to be wise, but a wise man knows himself to be a fool.”

      – William Shakespeare

      The Court Jester•The Fool•Poor Yorik•The Joker•The Trump Card•The Wild Card

      – William Sommers

      Love, Elizabeth

  30. I wonder why he didn’t write-“Begin it where warm waters balk .”- it is a synonym and would have kept the rhyme .

    • I think it was because of his limited abilities.
      Don’t quote me on that.
      You can find the real answer on this blog.

      • A good point but IMO, Halt is a key word and could not be substituted. If you believe as I do, “too far to walk” is also critical but actually means “wade” (but not far).

  31. It seems most of this discussion is on the “warm waters” words of the sentence , but I was trying to suggest the other words may be the real first clue. I don’t think Mr. Fenn has a limited ability to rhyme a word with walk. I was just showing a possibility. Figuring out why he really used halt may be important.

    • I think you’re right that “halt” was chosen over a potentially better rhyme. “Balk” would infer some kind of resistance or antipathy on the part of the warm waters, and that, in turn, would suggest some thing or idea to cause the balking. Plus the warm waters would need to have a consciousness, if that’s the right word, to recognize a balk-appropriate situation. That seems like a different kind of poem, to me.

      • If FF thinks that “the ground knows” and “the tall grass knows”, he may
        also think that warm waters have a consciousness.

        That’s my story and I’m stickin’ to it.

        As always, in my opinion.

    • And I believe the answer to your question is that “halt” is a noun and not a verb.

  32. Mr. Sherif- I am sure you can not possibly know what I understand about any words in the poem. It is called interpretation – yours may be different. Some replies get me thinking about two cartographers arguing whether the earth is flat or football shaped. Then one day they learn it is round. Such will be the grand day when the correct solve is known.

  33. The treasure will be found this summer!!! The architect of this magnificent poem is Forrest Fenn. The poem the first clue is Begin it and the last step is Quest to cease. Many of you don’t consider one important factor of this chase. The book has the confirmation you are looking for after you study the poem. I will be placing my solve after my BOTG quest, this summer. The book is the manual of how the poem was constructed. Good luck everyone.

  34. Bezel,

    Interpretation, the words are straightforward and we all have the same document, so how is it we come up with different answers? The reason is folks don’t understand wwwh and using every word that F has spoken of or written of since TTOTC came out, to justify their theories.

    Don’t get me wrong, somethings should be listened to, but not everything. Forrest has told us how to solve his poem.

    From an article/interview, by Holly Johnson, Club Thrifty, 7/8/13: she asks: What tips do you have for those wanting to find the treasure?
    “Here is what I would do. Read my book in a normal manner. Then read the poem over and over and over, slowly – thinking. Then read my book again, this time looking for subtle hints that will help solve the clues.”

    Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem. ~Steve R~ “No Steve R, The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.”f MW 8/12/14

    “I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map.”f MW 2/4/17. Seems pretty basic, and it is. Then Forrest goes onto say, “It seems like the longer one thinks about the search the more they complicate the problem.”f

    With all of the quotes above folks still aren’t truly listening, IMO. The most pertinent thing is geography which applies to the poem. The first clue, IMO can only be solved through the use of geographical knowledge, if you don’t have knowledge, it’s time to learn something new. The subtle hints in the book, IMO are geographical hints nothing more, because we are told to marry the poem to a map. I don’t recall F ever saying something along the line, (the stories in my book will help you), only as an example.

    WWWH is the main reason folks can’t find the treasure. The other reasons why folks can’t find the treasure after figuring out wwwh is that they might be trying to use the stories in the book, instead of the unintended subtle hints, provided one can find them. So I’m not spending a lot of time looking for the hints, the main focus is the poem, geography and a map and marry together. The idea should be how do waters halt, *not in theory*, but in practice the natural way?

    Of course, Just Say’n

  35. This is all In My Humble Opinion.

    The poem is an allegory. The moral? I like the way Pink Floyd said it when they sang the lyrics…”got to keep the loonies on the path.” I just read an article that stated…”Yellowstone Park officials are highly sensitive to visitors going off trail thereby destroying the land to be preserved.”

    Do you think F, with all his history and love of Yellowstone really wants us to go off trail to find the chest? No, he doesn’t. F is an environmentalist, probably more so than most.

    F asked the question…So why is it that I must go and leave my trove for all to seek? Okay, here comes the bomb! F is not acting alone in the chase. There are many players involved including Yellowstone Park officials. They’re all in on this together. All across social media, including this very site. That’s right, I’m saying that this whole treasure hunt is set up to:

    1) promote tourism in YNP
    2) to teach a lesson

    They’ve “done it tired” in the past by telling people to stay on the trails and this treasure hunt is a fun and unique way to teach that lesson.

    The poem leads me to an area that is closed due to sensitive habitat. So, if F hid the treasure where I think he did…on that island in the Rockies…then it’s in an area we can’t or shouldn’t go unless we want to get into serious trouble.

    So hear me all…don’t go off trail. Stay in the wood trails that have been built around the geothermal features. Trust me, it will be worth the cold to view them from these locations.

  36. Charlie M
    My solve theory is based on geography also. I posed the question about halt vs balk to see other theory. Not much came of it. I was expecting the usual anagram, word count, letter count, ancient word root meaning, Russian history, brothers cousins sisters memory of a forgotten voodoo use, etc. I can’t say that these theories are wrong and will not try to dissuade that track of thinking, but after studying and analyzing Mr. Fenn’s suggestions I’m sticking with geography also.

  37. I keep seeing the “big picture” references on the blogs. There is a big picture that shows all thermal areas tagged as hot, warm, etc. maybe that’s what f is referring to. I don’t have the link no but it’s out there for the taking on the internet.

    The other thing I see is “drive then walk”. Is everyone discounting the many photos of horses in the book. Why do you think they are there?

    Of course it’s all IMHO, am I’m just another searcher without a clue.

    • RoadRunner – Horses work, IMO. Forrest and Donnie Joe got theirs at the Parade Rest Ranch for their wilderness adventure up Red Creek etc. at age 16.

      “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.f”.

      Double Omega?

      There is a parking area for horse trailers and a hitch rack at the Cabin Creek Trailhead. It is only 3.7 miles from there to my hidey spot. I could do the two round trips in about 6.5 hours with a break for that sandwich, including the three creek crossings. But a horse could cut that down to 4 hours, I am sure. And horses are probably a better means of crossing those creeks; ie. with the bronze chest on one trip and the gold on the next one in the rear saddlebag. My Osprey backpack would be light going in, heavy with the chest contents coming back down, light again going for the bronze chest, then heavy on the downhill. My trail has only a 600ft elevation gain with a 200ft off trail scramble uphill to my hidey spot from there.

      Bonus – They say being on a horse discourages grizzly aggression, because a horse with a rider on top appears to be a more threatening adversary.

      • Two interesting things on bears, one was a two part video on Winter and Summer in Yellowstone where wolves showed they could keep a Grizzly at bay but also in the end eat side by side. The other was the sled dogs in Alaska that was chained up when a polar bear came up and the dog’s play behavior managed to overcome the hungry drive in the bear. Not exactly anything a human could/should do but definitely interesting.

  38. I found yet another WWWH in New Mexico…on my computer.
    Rio Puerco Gorge. Which is the headwaters of the Rio Puerco River.
    Far up in the Jemez Mountains, north east of Cuba, up from Coyote, down from La Cueva, take NM4 to 126, to a forest road 93, and I am already lost. I have been lost up there at least three times.
    There is two camp grounds there. Out houses and good spring water, also.
    There is trout fishing. It is a place that an 80 year old man could go, and children too. There are several water falls. One of which is called Echo Falls.
    WHAT MORE DO YOU WANT?
    Oh, you want the Home of Brown. Right. Well I haven’t figured that part out yet. Just look at the pictures:
    http://www.dougscottart.com/hobbies/SlotCanyons/PuercoGorge.htm

    elevation- 8000’ to9000’

    GPS coordinates- 36°05.825’N 106°44.270’W

    flow- two nice trout streams here

    season to visit- Spring, Summer and Fall

    accommodations- near by campgrounds have out houses and Resumidero Spring is wonderful drinking water

    ownership- Santa Fe National Forest

      • It was on a couple of those lost journey’s that I also got stuck in a hole and stuck in the sand twice, and lost a muffler once.. Always bring a shovel and a tow rope.

        I just looked at the map. Take NM4 to 126, to Forest Road 103. that will lead you to the Rio Puerco Campground.

        • There are no snowy mountains visible, and the cold is not present, I don’t think it’s there

          • John, the Rio Puerco is on Forrests’ map is is considered the Rocky Mountains. IMO it’s in play. I doubt that road is even open for the season yet. Snow be deep this year.

          • What makes you think there should be snowy mountains visible? That could be from Salt Lake City or Denver, both impossible locations IMO. Also, what determines presence (or absence) of cold at any particular place? How is cold not present at this particular location? Just wondering.

          • Michael, you’ve been here for awhile so I can assume that the poem somehow told you this area, right?
            There was probably more work in solving the poem that lead to the places you mention, so I get that you would just post your findings and not how you solved the poem and how the poem told you to go there, right?
            Just curious because there is no mention on how one solve from here or there in the poem landed you to this area.
            I only ask because you start off with, “I found yet another WWWH in New Mexico…on my computer”, and I don’t believe Fenn put wwh on your computer. In fact, I don’t believe Fenn has even given us any subtle information to use to find wwwh. Could you possibly explain a little bit more on how you arrived at where you arrived at? Thanks.

    • That was good stuff Michael!
      Thanks for sharing and it sure does look like a good place to rest your bones.

      Clint, how come you don’t share good stuff like this?

      • Clint cracked Jake. Nobody wants you to crack. Just for a fun spring and summer.

      • Hi Jake Faulker
        Do you fly to Montana or drive from Florida.once you know how to put every thing to gather its to dangerous
        to say much at all.Forrest said be quite until the time is
        right when mud stops being mud. Clint
        Sorry I can’t be more help Jake

        • Clint,
          Please just say anything about where warm waters halt just so we know you are a serious searcher.

          • Jake,

            You made that relatively same statement to me a few days back asking me to show my cards. Maybe Clint or myself decided to hold all close to chest.

            Boy are you nosey! Who cares if one is a causal or serious searcher or have to prove ones self.

            Just Say’n

          • I never asked you to show me your cards CM. You are sadly mistaken because I already knew what cards you have and should throw them in the muck.

            I would just like to see others sharing here like michaels post above and some below it instead of a lot of off topic crap like this.

            Do you have something to say about the topic of this page CM or am I being too nosey?

          • Hey Jake Faulker
            Ok I’ll give you one,when all said and
            done you’ll whined up in Suzanne Somers warm tub and it isn’t the one
            in Palm Springs.your Welcome
            Clint

          • Thanks Clint, LOL
            I hope it’s just me and her otherwise it would be 3’s company too much.
            Whined?
            I like the bathing idea as I think Fenns bathing spot in the Firehole is where to begin.

          • Hey Jake F
            I think there was another one a little
            more out in the Wood.Like Forrest said
            he likes to make his oun way thru the
            Wood and the Rangers say stay on trails
            it’s not in the park I believe Forrest said
            say on the trails in the park to.

          • Hey Clint,
            I didn’t understand what you are trying to say.
            Please try again and read what you wrote before pressing the “Post Comment” button.
            Thank you.

          • Jake F
            What I am saying is that Forrest WWH is
            a lot more private then the fire hole.
            Suzanne tub was not in the house ,I is a vary secluded place.

          • The Firehole was private back then when Fenn bathed there.
            I hope Suzy’s tub was in one of the search states. I forget where she lived.

    • Michael; I’ve explored these falls and surrounding area in depth…love love love planet New Mexico. There are no shortage of hidden splendors to be discovered. Thanks for sharing; brings back warm memories.

        • Michael, I have only written up one of my dozens and dozens of search adventures. But, FYI, there is a very intriguing WWWH fairly close by. Look for a teapot.

          • That area by Micheal’s coordinates looks like a teapot if you zoom out. Also, if you rotate in 3D mode right by your pin it looks like a turtle head is there coming out of it’s shell.

            Definitely looks beautiful there, also wild, but beautiful.

          • That’s an interesting looking place. The white hand print reminds me of a policeman holding up his hand to “halt” traffic. But I don’t see how that applies to warm waters, unless the tea cup is the warm waters, & the hand is the halt.

    • Hi Mike, I’d thought it was at Echo Falls when I first started in 2012. But alas, I’m still paying on my darn debt, just hoping to buy my motorhome. Lol I hope it is there so I can say, I knew it!!

    • Michael would you email me so that I can share some of my thought on NM,
      mcmulgl at yahoo dot com?

  39. I do agree though. It’s a decent WWWH. What’s more important is cracking the poem sandy. That’s why we are here. Not to be overly boastful about where you have been. Be a little more humble and realize not everyone has the ability to search these areas at the drop of a hat. Tell mindy I said hi, lol

  40. Concerning WWWH if you had to use percentages, in your opinion what percent out of all of the searchers in the chase believe WWWH is Yellowstone.

  41. For me WWH leads to the West Yellowstone area. I think it could be several different answers and they all lead back to that area via the Madison, before splitting off to different creeks.
    Of course it could be anywhere in the Rockies but after rereading the books many times and doing associated research I think Occam’s razor is the best tool to find the TC. The books are very sentimental and he is plain spoken and conversational in the way he writes with few literary mechanisms. It makes sense to me the probability points to that area. He writes about NM AZ WY and CO, but he writes with true nostalgia about his childhoods in that town. The place where it’s hidden isn’t some cool cave or waterfall in Colorado he found in his plane in his 50s. The chest is in a private place he discovered as a child and developed a special relationship with IMO

    • Matt Thank you for that great reply. I believe people tend to overthink the clues/poem and WWWH, but as I say this I can’t shake the nagging feeling that FF has created or engineered a way to manipulate or marry the book,map,and poem. I can not dismiss searchers like Dal and others that have invested so much time and effort in this search and have surely tried to simplify the clues but have still come up short. I go back and forth in my head between keep it simple and it has to be complex.

      • JC I think you’re right about that. I go back and forth too. And regarding Dal and other early searchers: to a large extent I wouldn’t have settled on my location without them largely exhausting so many places and generously writing about their experiences.

  42. I wonder if Forrest Fenn ever read Occam’s Razor? I have to get that book. Maybe that’s the key to selling simpler Cybersecurity solutions. I hope it doesn’t apply to the Chase. Nobody wants this to be easy. Complexity is what makes it so intoxicating. The level of difficulty is what draws the sharks out to the poker table.

  43. Clint,

    All that I can say is, wwwh is the hard part and F indicated the clues get easier as on goes along. It may be easier for F as he is the architect. I don’t think there will be an aha moment until the treasure is found.

  44. Little off topic, but I’m new to the blog. I hope someone finds it soon. In addition to the treasure and the gift of adventure, Forrest has sacrificed his ability to return to one of his more cherished places. Both searchers and “civilians” have apparently been within a few hundred feet. So those folks are enjoying the area (if not the pin point spot). I hope He gets the chance to return to this place. Maybe this summer! Good luck, everyone!

  45. Why could ff not put 9 clues in the poem, that actually rep some 18 seperate geographic locations?

    Why does he say ” And take it in the Canyon down? Was his purpose to just make the rhyme of down and Brown, or is there something else? Perhaps disguised, so the real reason its Waters and not Water is because it describes 2 WWWH locals, so just like the backward bike, the clues to the TC may meet in the middle of the poem at or near the Blaze and you must be “wise to see that” he is burning the candle at both ends, as each clue does move one closer to the chest but from two directions. Imagine that Tarry Scant is a word/combo he created to hint to us his architectural genius of shrinking the search so that the first two clues were actually 4 places and each successive clue, although far away is moving you in the right direction…closer from both put ins.

    I know many in this chase are not thrilled by something that simple, but try seeing this from an image of one side, a snow field and one side at 32 degrees.

    Mr Terrific out.

    • Tom Terrific – Great thoughts! Thinking about what Forrest said about finding the clues in the Poem, matching them to geographic locations on the map, and consecutive order. Going to do some Google research over at Jenny’s to investigate your theory. I will get back to you.

      • Tom Terrific – I like this list from Jenny’s blog:

        http://mysteriouswritings.com/forrest-fenn-poem-facts/

        But for the fourth stanza, for instance, I have at least five blazes that work. They create a target of concentric circles, beginning with the X formed by the waters coming together at Three Forks, MT in the outermost ring, seen from a plane to a blaze on a rock covering the bronze chest at my hidey spot at ground zero.

        My thought is also that several map locations could correspond to each clue, depending on each individual solve. I can approach my hidey spot from three different directions, and the Poem still matches map locations for each solve.

  46. You want to know what would really be wild? What if WWWH. BTHOB and NPFTM all turned out to be descriptions of the very same place.

    • I’m a little slow forgive me but what is bthob and npftm. What place are those.

      • Well – let me try to clarify what I said. That would depend on how many times you went thru the poem – like Mr. F said – “read it over and over.”
        Each time you get a tad bit closer until it appears that they all are describing the same place (or thing). Now that’s just as clear as mud.

        • My turn to apologize – I’m not trying to mislead anyone here. I just prefer not to expose all my thoughts, at least not yet. That might make me a bit too vulnerable and I don’t handle criticism too well.

      • Grasshopper, we shorten the poem, like when you’re texting. BTHOB means below the home of Brown. NPFTM means no place for the meek. Got it? Memorize the poem. It would be to your advantage.

        • Ok I’m savay. I had the poem memorized but I keep forgetting things. Even my family is calling me on that. I’m starting to get a complex but I don’t care; I know what’s in my head. Doesn’t matter that my child helps me with my electronic devices.
          I got this far in life, who knows why but the fun is still there.
          GH

          • Grasshopper, As long as you’re having fun, that’s the most important thing for today in the chase imo.

      • Below the home of Brown, No place for the meek. HoD is home of someone on here.

    • its still a place hard to find or at least for me but I’m working on another what if.
      be safe take water.see you on the trail.

  47. WWH is at the omega bend of Polvadera Rd where Agua Caliente spring enters Abiquiu Creek and follow it north down the canyon a couple of miles into the town of Abiquiu, NM

      • sorry it was lack of animals and pine that did me in but its wprt another look see. have fun take water.

  48. I believe that if FF (using an alias) would tell us exactly where WWH is and the HOB and NPFTM, he would be poo-pooed on here. An open mind and a bit of imagination is what is gonna prove to be the tools needed to solve this riddle. I sure as heck don’t have the answer nor can I say who does – perhaps we need to listen a bit more.

      • Musket agin I’m slow what is M branch here is that my bank branch holding all mr Fenns gold money, although my objectives are contrary to that. I should have got in on this blogging a while ago.
        GH

        • NPFTM: “You’d never kill me.. you’d miss me..”

          Bond: (Blam blam!) “I never miss..”

          • Holly cow Muset. My intentions, on the contrary
            Besides I wouldn’t miss you since I don’t know you. If I knew you I might know what you refer to. I don’t know anyone that has never missed.
            I guess you missed my sense of humor and my honest question. So bam bam pebbles on out. Good night.
            Just my opinion
            GH

  49. No place for the meek. Back at M branch was the question.
    Need not respond if you wish it was not that valuable to me.
    Just curious. Tired need sleep.
    GH

      • Ok forget about M branch since that is out of the picture here. I can laugh in jest. Confused as to why you want to put forth an ignorant joke and be pleased that it worked. And what is it that now you get. My questions were of simplesity and go without answer. I’m fine with that if to be. My humor was not presented out of or in ignorance it was just unreceived as it was. Your perception has mislead you to a conclusion of negative outbreak and within that demising yourself to a defensive position. JMO. That’s just my opinion.
        I may be slow but I’m not stupid
        Fora bug.
        GH

        • GH,

          The M branch is the Madison river. It is beyond me why some won’t give the newbies a fare shake and make light of what is being said.

          Where warm *waters* halt in my mind has nothing to do with hot/warm springs at all. Waters I’ve noted above is naturally plural, which maybe we’ll over two water sources merge together to make one.

          I don’t take into account the waters that merge together at Three Forks, Montana, as I feel is not in the RM because of the flat land and rolling hills, no mountains in sight.

          Besides the water that comes out of the RM is always cold then becomes warm when it breaks out into the plains, high deserts or valleys.

          I think along the line of what is practice and logic instead of speculation or false theories, such as the Firehole river merging with the Madison as the place where warm waters halts. In practice the waters don’t halt in that area even in theory, it is impossible.

          The reason I feel this way is we are told to marry the poem to a map. A map is of very real places and things, so I go with real vs speculation or theory.

          All is IMHO
          Just Say’n

          • I would also like to add that the Yellowstone, Arkansas, Chama, and the Animus rivers are predominantly warm water rivers which may fit the bill. (Predominantly = major portion of the river)

            Either I am right or wrong, is still to be determined.

          • Charlie M – Three Forks is my outermost blaze in a series of blazes that form a target of concentric circles to reach my hidey spot at the bullseye in the center. I chose it as a blaze that I was “wise” to find previously, because it those three source rivers coming out of the mountains form a perfect X on the map. And Forrest said he wasn’t going to put one of those on the map for us. He doesn’t need to, IMO. It’s already there to guide me to my search area.

            But if anyone else is interested in considering where the Madison, Gallatin and Jefferson Rivers meet the Missouri at Three Forks as a potential fly fishing- based WWWH, here is a good link:

            https://www.bigskyfishing.com/River-Fishing/central-rivers/missouri-river-fishing.php

            All three branch sources that flow out from the mountains and act as tributaries to the Missouri have blue ribbon Flywater.

          • Lisa,

            When F mentioned the x on a map, I believe he was talking
            about the individual being able to place an x on a map after figuring out where the treasure might be hidden. IMO the x is not a hint of a place that makes an x.

            Just Say’n

          • Without even knowing what criteria you’re taking into account, I’d add the Yampa to any such list.

            Some years in late summer the flow comes up short of its confluence with the Green, and so the Green River flows into and up the Yampa’s channel for a stretch.

            jake

          • Charlie M – Here’s that Big ‘Ol X on the Map:

            https://images.app.goo.gl/ZGGbEafH3fECPzvQ8

            If Forrest is flying in his Piper Malibu plane over it and turns South to land at West Yellowstone Airport, below YNP as a potential home of Brown, the whole second stanza of the Poem works from a fly fishing perspective, IMO. In that theory, the word that is key would be Flywater.

            Now I will go Google that exact quote and context from Forrest about the X on the map.

          • Charlie – Not the quote I was thinking of. This one was from early in the Chase:

            “There is an X on the map, IN SPIRIT…”

            I remember looking up all kinds of historical religious crosses, when I noticed that X at Three Forks, after I heard that. He does not say the X is the treasure location in that quote.

          • Lisa,

            In spirit to me means it is with in us, good faith. Besides one can not see a spirit. I guess it’s down to interpretation. I would never say your wrong, and your theory is interesting.

            Finding the quote your speaking of would be interesting within the context.

            Just Say’n

          • Charlie M – The context was in reference to the Benchmark map.

            And upon further consideration, since Forrest and Donnie were “Looking for Lewis and Clark”, the X being on the map in Spirit at Three Forks makes sense. The Sacagawea Memorial Park with that great statue of her holding her son is there. And that party explored up every one of those cold mountain tributaties to the Missouri River. Thinking about that gold commemorative coin Forrest’s artist friend designed, also.

        • The Madison is not really in the mountains beyond Hebgen Lake. I haven’t searched along the Madison, but I’m pretty sure everybody else has covered it well.

          NPFTM to me is a place where animals and humans get together to eat. The animals eat lead and the humans eat meat. That place is easy to find in October, but hardly noticeable in the summer.

          I do search the NW Yellowstone general area and have done it fifteen times. I like it up there and finding the treasure will just be a bonus if that happens.

          Try the ribs at the Riverside Grill near Big Sky.

  50. Hi JDA
    Are you back, just ain’t the same place with out you here kepen every body
    On that straight an narrow path to the TC.Clint

    • I believe he is still in hibernation preparing for his next BOTG in early May (conjecture only).

  51. Last chance to pass level one: Can WWWH be identified from above? If WWWH is more than one spot, how is the staring point identified? Is WWWH part of a river? What is “it” that we are supposed to begin with?

    • Finder – I can burn that WWWH candle at both ends, if “it” in the Poem is the Madison River. If the word that is key is Flywater, you could begin stanza two at Three Forks or Madison Junction. Look at the big picture.

      • If, if, if. Yes, and IF an asteroid hit the U.S. tomorrow, we may want to postpone our search for FF’s treasure.

        I would hope that FF is not so glib as to say there are a couple of “subtle” hints in TTOTC, and then turn right around and hide the chest in or near an area that TTOTC screams out, loud and clear.

    • Finder … you ask too many intelligent questions. To respond to your first question >>> Can WWWH be identified from above?

      I’d say yes . . . in a manner of speaking.

      Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • I believe answer to first question is yes. I believe WWWH and “it” may be two different things. Food for thought. Hope this helps. Checking out of this site. My job is done here. More levels than one, probably at least 3-4 levels, although my kids seem to think something magical happens at level 5. Oops, maybe I said too much.

    • *** *** *** ***
      “What is “it” that we are supposed to begin with?”
      *** *** *** ***

      Where or how do you read that we’re supposed to begin *with* any *it* at all?

      “Begin it where” not “Begin with it”.

      Turning a simple imperative into pretzel logic may well turn out to be the correct way to navigate the poem. It’s certainly the way a lot of searchers approach it.

      I think it’s more likely just spinning the wheels – entertaining for sure, but generating more sound and dust than forward motion.

      So the question quoted above is just a speculative substitution of a different question for the one actually posed by Line 5.

      And I completely get that taking three rights to make a left is one way to get ’round an obstacle. But in the end it really just substitutes a different set of questions – three rights to make a left, or three lefts to make a right?

      It multiples complexity rather than diminishing it, as you now have eight variables rather than –

      ” . . . you have to know where warm waters halt . . . . The first clue in the poem is ‘begin it where warm waters halt’. . . . If you can’t figure that clue out you don’t have anything.” ff (2013)

      Jake

        • JA Kraven – Waiting for the 33″ of snow to melt in West Yellowstone. Wouldn’t want to get my wagon wheels stuck in an old Stagecoach rut out the Barns Holes.

          • Not sure what either of these two to me have to do with my response to Finder’s fourth question, Lisa?

            “To be, or wanna be . . . . what was the question?”
            – Willie the Shakes, Las Vegas 1949

            Jake

          • JA Kraven – Because your answer to Finder’s fourth question about “it” contained this response:

            “I think it’s more likely just spinning the wheels – entertaining for sure, but generating more sound and dust than forward motion.”

            Stagecoach Barns and Wheels…get it? I think Forrest using that Shakespeare quote in his book and Scrapbook is a nod to where to put in; possibly at the secret Barns Hole spot.

          • Oh, I know your methods, Holmes.

            And they can yield delightful results.

            But to paraphrase ol’ Waylon – I don’t think Hank done it that way.

        • JA Kraven – My thanks to the searcher with this great website for transcribing this TFTW Preface reading by Forrest:

          http://www.tarryscant.com

          How did you come up with the title? Too Far to Walk?

          “You’ll have to read my preface. I explained it in my preface. Well, let me read it to you. I’ll read a dedication. This book is dedicated to all that have pushed me against my will, and made me a better person. Here’s my preface. I put a small rubber dinghy in the Madison River a few miles from West Yellowstone, Montana and fished downstream to Baker’s Hole. That part of the river was in the quietly forgotten western edge of Yellowstone National Park. There were no roads, no trails, and no Rangers to tell me I wasn’t supposed to do that. The river distance was about 10 miles and the best fishing was in the bends where the water turned greenish deep and beautiful. The small boat containing my camping gear was tethered to my belt and as I leisurely walked in the quiet river, I spent three days there casually casting my fly and enjoying the solitude. The river experience cemented my connection to that special country, and I promised myself that someday I would make that trip again. That day never came for me, and my disappointment still casts a lonesome shadow across the Madison River. For me now, it’s just too far to walk. And that’s where I got the title. Yes, sir?”

          Hmmmm….

          • Okay, I see a theme here.

            Not sure why I’m being gifted with all these odd Madison mementos, but thanks fer thinkin’ of me!

            Jake

          • JA Kraven – We’re just taking a little trip on a Backwards Bike down Forrest’s Memory Lane. The Black Phantom wasn’t built by Schwinn until 1949. Here is a great 1946 Schwinn Catalog. I’ve got a tight focus on the reverse of the stylized red S in the logo in their ads and on some bikes in the pics as my new blaze. At the end of Forrest’s fondly remembered journey in that TFTW Preface. I think they used to call that destination “Brown’s Hole”, per a map Dal posted.

            https://bikehistory.org/catalogs/1946.html

    • Finder,

      An answer to your question, “Can WWWH be identified from above?”

      I will say most certainly yes, GE or the right map are the *big picture”. However one needs a comprehensive understanding of geography and learning to understand wwwh and then one can pin the location on a map.

      Just Say’n

      • Basic GE map reading skills for WWWH. But to pinpoint location and understand what “it” is goes beyond simple map skills and does not involve geography. One must understand the story and its deeper meaning from the context of the narrator and the actor (not the same person). Otherwise, will not find home of Brown and will have no understanding of where is too far to walk for put in.

        • Finder,

          You wrote ….”deeper meaning from the context of the narrator and the actor (not the same person).” What? Narrator, Actor Not the same?

          • If you are referring to the poem only. Both are the same person.

            I was hoping for a explanation, not a yes or no answer.

          • Narrator describing a journey taken by another that now he understands. Narrator journey is parallel to journey by another. Describes actions by more than one being.

        • Finder – Or, you can just look for the answer in this stanza of the Poem and have a good topo map handy:

          So why is it that I must go,
          And hide my trove for all to seek?

          Translated for my solve, if you “listen good”:

          So Y is IT that I must go…

          Madison Junction forms a Y comprised of the confluence of the Madison, Firehole, and Gibbon Rivers, as viewed from the air or Google Earth or a topo map. And that Y is IT, where Forrest must go to hide his trove for all to seek. IMO.

          IT= The Madison begins WWWH. IT=My Solve begins WWWH. IT =YNP begins in 1870 WWWH.

          • Y is in Provo Utah in a big letter on a mountain near BYU. Seriously, the stanza you quote is related to the deeper meaning of the poem that describes why the place is so significant and should be for all who seek understanding of life and its meaning.

  52. morecowbell and finder and all who read the earlier post about ff and “burning the candle from both ends” comment above yesterday, ask yourself what is an Architectect? What does one do and why did ff use it to describe how he felt..and there also, the backward bike analogy, so what does an Architectural design show you ask? A one dimensional drawing describes a 2 or 3 dimensional object. So why is it that I must go… is one dimension and The answers I already know is the second, I’ve done it tired, and now I am weak…catch 22.
    Dimension #3 a perfect object and it’s perfect objection. Like covering up Phily with his thumb.

    Normally a metaphor does describe and object, a word picture must have at least 2 dimensions to make a good map otherwise it would be an epic simile or, is it both?

    Does anyone else see that Forrest has spread a veil over what seems to be a straight linear form and made it 2 dimensional. His use of waters, halt and walk do not rhyme and exist for one purpose only, because each clue in “The Big Picture” has something in common with our definition of WWWH. Two locations and perhaps with the chapter of wisdom in one of his books we must be wise to have and I repeat HAVE FOUND this blaze, it’s in his book and his poem too.

    TT

    • I wish that by sharing your frustration, somebody could ease it some.

      OH! I should also say something about WWWH, as that’s the name of this
      yarn — I mean thread.

      I can think of more than a half-dozen places that could qualify as the place
      WWWH, without compromising the solvability of the poem. They are all in
      the same state: the state of non-confusion.

      I also wish you peace and good health. Please stay tuned until the end of
      summer.

      As always, IMO.

    • Tom Terrific – So glad you posted about the Poem not rhyming in the second stanza! I found a book excerpt link, that I believe was written by Craig Matthews about the section of the Madison River below Madison Junction. I have been trying to find this again for ages!:

      https://www.yellowstoneflyfishing.com/madison.htm

      So maybe Forrest’s original stanza was:

      Begin it where warm waters CHALK,
      And take it in the canyon down.
      Not far but too far to WALK,
      Put in below the home of Brown.

      Don’t mess with Forrest’s Poem. Ever.

      I like the part about the Hayden Party and YNP beginning at my WWWH, also. Right there at Madison Junction. Wow.

      • Correction: Wrong party name.

        “It was in National Park Meadows where the Gibbon and Firehole come together to form the Madison that the Langford-Washburn-Doane (August-September 1870)”

    • Tom could you elaborate on your last paragraph here? I’m comprehending just a little of what you’re saying and would like to learn more.

  53. An Homeric simile, also called an “epic simile” is a detailed comparison in the form of a simile that is many lines in length. The word “Homeric” is based on the Greek author, Homer, who composed the two famous Greek epics, the Iliad and the Odyssey. Many authors continue to use this type of simile in their writings. The typical Homeric simile makes a comparison to some kind of event, in the form “like a ____ when it ______.” The object of the comparison is usually something strange or unfamiliar to something ordinary and familiar. The Iliad, for instance, contains many such similes comparing fighting warriors to lions attacking wild boars or other prey. These similes serve to take the reader away from the battlefield for a brief while, into the world of pre-war peace and plenty. Often, they occur at a moment of high action or emotion, especially during a battle. In the words of Peter Jones, Homeric similes “are miraculous, redirecting the reader’s attention in the most unexpected ways and suffusing the poem with vividness, pathos and humor”. They are also important, as it is through these similes that the narrator directly talks to the audience.

    So why is it that I must go? So (tell me) why is it that he went in there? With his treasures bold? Answer or Answers make no difference, you choose. ff
    However water and waters make a big difference if its tears.

    TT

    • Tom Terrific –

      William Words WortH on tears:

      Thanks to the human heart by which we live,
      Thanks to its tenderness, its joys, and fears,
      To me the meanest flower that blows can give
      Thoughts that do often lie too deep for tears.

      That stanza from his poem about immortality was read by two actors, who play Paul and his Father, in a scene from the movie, “A River Runs Through IT”. Norman, the author of the story, is the narrator.

      And a River Runs through IT in Forrest’s Poem, IMO. And the Madison River does, in fact, begin Where Warm Waters Halt.

    • Tom Terrific – Thinking about ShakeSpeare and WordS Worth, two Willies, like Forrest’s Father, and like Forrest’s new dog’s name. And AnswerS. And WaterS. And Forrest’s multiple SoS (plural of So?) usage in the Poem. And that red Schwinn bike logo from the 40s. And that backwardS bike. And my new blaze at Baker’S Hole, formerly aka Brown’S Hole. The Madison runs through IT, also. And that backwardS S could also be a Double Omega.

      https://www.mhpbooks.com/did-everyone-get-the-first-line-of-beowulf-wrong-or-did-seamus-heaney-get-it-right/

      Did Forrest do those two trips from his car “tired”? Did he use a fly fisherman’s float tube to get out to that island in the stream? Or maybe a Dingy, like the one he mentioned on that treasured journey he made in the previous of TFTW? If he walked across the Madison River in his waders in the water high he used to swim in Baker’S Hole, he may just have been issuing his own SoS! (Beep Beep here for RoadRunner).

    • Tom Terrific – Thinking about Beowulf now. Hoping no Alligators have made their way via the West Yellowstone underground to Baker’s Hole. And that idiom of being ‘up to my Alligators’ in the water high at Baker’s Hole. I think fly fisherman use gators sometimes, also, don’t they? I know the Brown bears that frequent that area, not far from the old West Yellowstone garbage dump, know how to swim. Beware!

      And then Crocodile tears. And the one in Peter Pan, named Tick Tock. And that Lewis Carroll poem about the Crocodile, which Forrest quoted from memory at that event in Santa Fe.

      Looking forward to reading Doug Preston’s new book about the dinosaurs! And thinking about how Alligators probably roamed in what used to be deep swamps with dense foliage at Baker’s Hole, before Homo Sapiens in their waders and canoes arrived. I bet the prehistoric Beavers were huge, then! The Ice Age. Yet another potential WWWH.

      So hear me all and listen good,
      Your effort will be worth the cold.
      If you are brave and in the wood,
      I give you title to the gold.

      Sounds like a recommendation to make like Sacagawea, a Shoshone Indian, and a key member of the Lewis and Clark expedition, to make like a “brave” in an ‘in the wood” canoe to retrieve the gold at my back wardS S blaze at Baker’S Hole to me! Those folks named the Madison River, btw. I think IT’S a great, even presidential name. I bet his wife, Dolly, liked it.

      All IMO.

  54. There are other things I’d rather do than extrapolate a list of things that one might
    consider while thinking of WWWH. Examples of these things might include various
    (heretofore unmentioned-in-this-thread) bodily fluids, all of which contain warm water(s). I don’t want to get too graphic here — such as by itemizing things like cerebrospinal fluid, synovial fluid, etc.); one reason is that it might result in people using a dictionary; Gerd forbid that should ever happen to anyone — but I tink y’all get the picture. And no, I’ve never been accused of having a vitreous humour. As always, IMO.

    • Tall Andrew – Eye don’t get it. See also: Ojo Caliente as a potential WWWH. Forrest like hiding from the Brown bears, alone in there.

  55. Begin it. What is it? The beginning of our journey? Yes, but it is also the beginning of something else. It… is the Madison river Imo where it begins at Madison junction.

    No Charlie M, the waters don’t halt but the temperature starts cooling as it’s not being fed from geothermal features. The temperature is halting not the water.

    • Perhaps “it” does not have the same meaning in the first and second verse of this stanza. As a famous person once said, depends on what “it” is. All must be taken in context.

  56. @Pdenver. Sorry for the delayed response.

    I do think there is a Shakespeare influence within FF’s poetic signature. He mentions Shakespeare in other writs and speaks also. Including mentioning Shakespeare in a eulogy of a dear friend. In the poem, the strongest Shakespearian nod I see is the first clue, “BIWWWH”.

    Shakespeare’s most repeated quotes from Romeo and Juliet:

    “Juliet:
    “What’s in a name? That Which we call a rose
    By any other name Would smell as sweet.”

    What Which Would Halt ones Heart? Lol. Just me pretending I am in a Shakespearean play.

    Juliet was saying to Romeo that she is not in love with his family name ( Romeo Montague) nor his family, but the person named Romeo Montague. Their families were at war with each other , so their relationship was doomed.

    “but only a few are in tight focus with a word that is key”. FF
    “What is in a name”? Shakespeare

    We also give names to all words.

    Example:

    Q- ( grammatical ) What is the name given for that word usage called?”
    A-“A Noun, Verb, adverb, adjective, etc, etc”

    Where Warm Waters Halt . Is very much Shakespearean in play here , in my opinion. Tight focus with a word ( meaning- any and all words) is key.

    To me, Where Warm Waters halt is a description of a one word name designate; expressed poetically ( metaphorically) using four descriptive words. Therefore, one of the four words needs a “S” at its end. So, emphasis is on “Waters”.

    Very much shadowed by Shakespeare in some lines in the poem.

    Just my opinion.

  57. The backward bike analogy applies to some words in the English language. Don’t ask me why. I don’t really know. But, this could explain why the treasure is not easy to find. Well, difficult but not impossible, IMHO.

    • RocketMan – I choose Radar. And the RedBlackGreen Trail #206, where Donnie Joe took that pic of Forrest on Lightning the horse. Also because I like that character from MASH, because Forrest was an Aide de Camp to a General. I could do an out and back to my hidey spot on that trail, but instead I would take #207. Mirrors. Or I could do a big circle on a mountain bike on both trails, to satisfy T.S. Eliot. Have yo you read the rest of that Poem from the Four Quartets? A hidden waterfall is mentioned.

      https://examples.yourdictionary.com/palindrome-examples.html

  58. The rainbow in TTOTC, you may not find in the Rocky Mountains at all. It’s probably one you can see in Key West though, near the home of Hemingway., IMHO. No joke.

  59. I little S exercise:

    Where’s Warm Water Halt?
    Where Warms Water Halt.
    Where Warm Waters Halt.
    Where Warm Water Halts.

    The first two would not be proper as written. The last two could be proper as written.

    Where Warm Waters Halt.
    Where Warm Water Halts.

    The location of the (s) at the end of Water or if it’s at the end of Halt , changes the meaning and interpretation of this line and clue.

    Waters Halt
    Water Halts

    This can cause hiccups, lol. IMO .

    Don’t mess with the poem . IMO 🙂

    • Let’s not rule out the first two either:

      Warm waters halt
      Warm water halts

      Oh my, I need to let all this soak in for awhile. It’s mind-boggling.

  60. Good afternoon, I went botg last summer…. my WWWH is Colorado Springs. (Colorado means colored red – the universal color for “stop”… and springs being plural (waters).
    I later noticed that the turquoise land to the south on the map – supposed to be fish and wildlife service land, is actually mostly desert military land. (I verified this with other maps, definitely not FWS as colored on FF’s map…. This led me to take “it” down to Canyon City…”it” is in the word city. Ironically the highway between the two is Vietnam veterans memorial highway… Further, my endpoint was south of Canyon City…up oak creek grade road (not paddling up a creek, driving… and your on a grade (been wise). along side oak creek… (in the wood). After further research, I discovered these to be the “Wet Mountains”… (FF’s comment about knowing the chest is wet!”) even the shape of this national forest area on the map looks very similar to his shadow on TFTW.
    And lastly… the next town up river from Canyon City is Buckskin Joe… an old western movie set town built by “Malcom F. Brown”. (Also in this area is Temple Canyon Park, and a Grape Creek). Seemed pretty good to me.

  61. Love this story and the drive ppl have for this. Much respect to all here who have been searching and dedicating a lot of time into this. I can only dream to even walk a mile and be their in person. God bless.

  62. Why “halt” ?

    Balk rhymes better. FF, for some reason used halt/walk even though they don’t actually rhyme. Is halt the word that FF had to use, if so, why? Seems like balk would imply the same or very similar action…

    I am trying to come up with a plausible reason for the use of that word.

    As I study the poem, this is the biggest sticking point…why “halt’?

    PS-I have tried to interpret ‘halt’ as used in rail vernacular, but, that leads me to either the Cumbres-Toltec or the Silverton. Neither area seems to fit the rest of the poem, however.

  63. Several years ago, I came up with what I think is a rather clever solution to WWWH.

    Firstly, ask yourself, “Where does water halt”? Well, water halts at a dam.

    North of Santa Fe is the Abiqiu reservoir. The reservoir is fed by three rivers named Rio Chama. Rio Chama is Spanish for flame river. Flame rivers / warm waters.

    The canyon below the dam is a popular canoeing and kayaking destination. Not far, but too far to walk. Take a canoe ride down the river and “Put in below the home of Brown”.

    After coming up with my solution, I had made the trip to find the treasure, but a forest fire kept me from searching the area where the rest of the clues were leading me.

    • In my solve, “Halt” does not mean “change temperature”. LOL.
      Smiling.
      Breathing.
      Seeing.
      Thinking.
      Giggles.
      Sigh.
      Yawn.

      Does anyone think that Nostradamus predicted that the Notre Dame Cathedral would burn before Pee Wee Herman won the Academy Award?

      Should Beyonce be awarded a Nobel Peace Prize?

      IMO.

      • Tall Andrew – I have always replied upon John Dee for predictions, as did my namesake, QE1.

        https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smart-news/a-painting-of-john-dee-astrologer-to-queen-elizabeth-i-contains-a-hidden-ring-of-skulls-180957860/

        And I think Angelina Jolie should win the Nobel Peace Prize. John Dee thought so, also. But, then, he always talked to Angels. Like The Fool did in that play by William Butler Yeats. ⌛

        Time is running out…

        Is that the Holy Hand Grenade???

        Run Away, Tall Andrew!

          • Lisa Cesari,

            I hope you can pull that off, or do you mean look like Angelina physically? Just in jest 🙂

          • CharlieM – True story.

            I was walking through town here, and passed one of the nicest restaurants. Out front was a late model Red Ferrari. I looked down at the license plate: it had FF on it! So I walked around to the back patio to see a large party of well dressed women at a long table, then quickly made my exit and took a pic with my old Motorola flip phone.

            I emailed that to Forrest, asking if he and his family were here visiting, and if so, could I catch a ride to West Yellowstone?

            Two days later, Forrest announced this clue:

            “The treasure is not in Idaho or Utah.”

            I had hypothesized, not long before, that “treasures bold” could be family members.

            I know. Confirmation Bias. But still fun!!!

        • Are you favorably impressed with John Dee’s predictions? Did he
          predict that the sun would “rise” tomorrow? Did he impress you
          with something more unusual, such as “the eventual finder will rise in the dwelling and issue forth many yawns”?

          • Tall Andrew – Yes, in fact, he did. He also knew I would provide the often dormant Excelsior! Geyser with the poem that goes with it. And that the link I posted would show it has not halted at all; it is constantly pouring hot water into the Firehole River.

  64. Jake, I tried several times to post a comment to you several times and never went through. I will try later.

    • Jake,

      I am not talking about a region, it is of specific places where hot springs are. There is a difference between geysers and hot springs. The main difference between a geyser and a hot spring is that a geyser is plugged with an obstruction near the opening of the spout and a hot spring is allowed to flow freely. And yes hot springs are a thermal feature

      • Isn’t Yellowstone National Park a “specific place”???
        A region could also be a specific place.
        I think you’re muddying the warm waters to your liking.

        • Jake,

          Here is a link for MT for hot springs, exact places: https://www.montanahotsprings.net/

          Now you can’t tell me these aren’t places. As nouns, the difference between a place and region is that a place is a particular point or place in physical space while region is any considerable and connected part of a space or surface; specifically, a tract of land or sea of considerable but indefinite extent; a country; a district or even a state.

          Muddied? not hardly

      • Seeing you did the research but didn’t specify the source as good researchers do. I will ask for your source(s) of your research and the specifics on how you determined such.
        And
        List the names, places, regions or spots of all 17 areas in Wyoming that have thermal features. Otherwise it’s all your opinion.

      • And just a reminder of what you stated:
        “Montana 61, Wyoming 17, Colorado 31 and New Mexico has the most at 77, HOT SPRINGS. So, there ya go approx.186 places to search, providing there is a canyon to go down.”

        You say “hot springs” at the end of that sentence which I kindly capitalized for you to show the relevance of that phrase.

        • Hey, Wow, That was real thorough research. LOL
          Sorry for the delay in responding, I was laughing my butt off.

          I’ll be honest with you CM. If I were Dal, I would delete this thread and the one above because it doesn’t help anyone and is misleading and false.
          Yall have a good night.

        • It’s a good thing about this thread, you just don’t get it, so its false. You apparently have a grudge.

          Now, going to enjoy the rest of the day.

          • Now I’m LMAO, JMO but thin skin doesn’t make either of you any more credible. Again JMO because otherwise you’d call the cop on me too. WWWH has nothing to do with hot springs, dams, fishing, frozen water or high mountain lakes. All these things will aid in getting BOTG in the area of interest. As Mr. Fenn has mentioned before, the poem and clues transform. Different sets of lines start describing places and directions. Using some imagination, the lessons learned exploring the area and the sprinkled hints in TTOTC, WWWH is a place, not an object. Chew on that for a while and get out there in nature. If you’re an armchair searcher, you don’t have a clue past number two.

            Almost forgot, JMO

  65. A day of repose….a day of reflection….just thinking out loud.
    Drawing a line from the epicenter of Santa Fe north (true north) to the North Pole, the line crosses several arroyos (WWWH) with some being named with unique names. Most are what we call creeks you can not paddle up. Flash floods have deposited heavy loads and high water marks in these places where the meek fear to tread especially if flash flood warning have been forecasted. It can be sunny and calm, but MILES away a raging wall of water could be heading down stream from a rainstorm 50 miles away. Arroyos can be a place to surface HUNT for arrowheads and fossils, Saber Toothed Tigers claws and Mastedon tusks have been found in arroyos. There are videos of flash floods that are as entertaining to watch as Dancing With The Stars. Polaris

  66. Some of life’s most memorable moments are in a time and place not recognized by any other beyond the beholder. He was about to return from a successful summer where nature revealed more blessings than a young boy could have ever imagined and camping with family at a familiar locale, the moon was slight but ever so bright on this night. He soaked in a warm and inviting natural bath. A private time of warm water aided by the sounds of his father’s ax and the wafting smoke from his mother tending the water kettle.

    Stars blasted the sky in those moments and feelings of new found success, personal accomplishment and approaching manhood were only tempered by the realization that the place he will soon return to is so very far from that where he just came. Ahead lay more of what he left behind for these past few months of real joy. Soon criticism, condemnation, doubt, and rebellion would welcome his return to that place he called his home town.

    So many conflicting thoughts crashed through his mind. It was then that he noticed a nesting dove. Faithful to its mission, the dove did not flee the threatening noise of an invading family. Ignoring the nearby threats from a cracking ax, the eggs remained covered by warm feathers. In mounting personal frustration and with some mischievous intent a few pebbles and then larger and larger rocks were tossed at the peaceful bird. It seemed to have this very unnatural ability to ignore every threat and hold fast with confidence.

    What would it take to interrupt such persistent goals of a mother on her nest? Maybe only breaking off the limb would do the trick?

    Then, again, why?

    This warm bath surrounded by nature and serenaded by the stars; this moment protected by loved ones and marinated by the best of memories, one simply has to wonder, “why?” Endurance, patience, peace, maturity, confidence are lessons sometimes only learned in a time and place not recognized by any other beyond the beholder.

    • ED;

      What beautiful prose – and a very likely story that we can easily believe was written by Forrest about his youth. Thanks a lot for sharing – Wish that I could write so well – JDA

      • I hope I’m never afflicted by ED. Like billions of other people, I’m approaching the age of folks who post suggestive messages that indicate/imply a desire for lost youth and its associated health and virility.
        Sad? Maybe. This is all part of the natural progression of one’s condition. I believe that one could and should be relatively graceful in once’s acceptance of reality, which may sometimes seem harsh. In other words . . . (instead of spending time in the hole of a white rabbit.) with grace, one can be slick.

  67. Where Warm Waters Halt. That is the first clue, so I’ve heard. Hmmm. Now, that’s a hard one! Not easy. Let me rest on that for a bit. I wonder if this requires some deep thinking or an agile mind. Lol! I’m glad I’m resting,. After all, I am tired. It aughta help.

  68. Hello Newbie Here, has anyone ever discussed the possibility that this is where warm waters halt is where warm water salt? Such As I have gone alone in there is As I have gone alone in the air? Just wondered if these ideas have ever been raised. Thank you.

    • Michael,
      Welcome. To answer your direct question, where warm water salt has been brought up a number of times and alone in the air sounds familiar but I’m not sure where I saw it. I think that playing with words like this is in Fenn’s character and could lead somewhere. Have you also considered “From the air it’s no place…” and “ridges new and old”. I’m sure that there are more if you look for them.

      • I did not pick up on ridges new and old. I believe the way in which the poem is written, meaning is structure, and the specific words and order of words chosen are very key. I have actually been studying the poem and book for a few years now, on and off, but this is my first venture into a forum, so I am a newbie. I started off reading and researching in many various ways coming up with several solves, then disproving them all, and have since reduced to using the poem and book exclusively. I plan my first BOTG for later this summer and appreciate being able to share a and learn with you all. Peace, Michael

        • I suggest you bounce some of your ideas off trusted friends or
          relatives. It’s not always easy for someone to recognize their own
          mistakes if they exist. Good luck. Please research and emphasize safety in the mountains. As always, my opinion.

      • JW – Love those!:

        From th’Air it’s no place for the meek.

        So Why•WY•Y is it that I must go,
        And ‘hide’ my trove for all to seek?
        (is that a reference to a tanned sheepskin ‘hide’ possibly protecting the bronze chest?)

        I’ve done it ‘tired’ and now I’m weak (‘tired’ like using a vehicle?)

        Your ‘ef-fort’ will be worth the cold (F-fort as Forrest’s final resting place, perhaps?)

        I suggest reading the Poem, over and over, out loud. All IMO.

        • JW – Forgot:

          As I•Eye have gone alone in there (Ojo Caliente?)

          I can ‘keyp’ my secret ‘weir’ (spawning fish jaw formation with Shoshone fish barrier?)

          And hint of ‘Riches’ new and old (Richard the Lionhart, Richard III, Poets?, Writers? Artists? Archaeologists? Physicist friends? Vietnam connections?)

          The end is ‘Ever’ drawing ‘nigh’ (Everhard? The left side of a horse? Or ‘Nye’ the Writer on Shakespeare’s epitaph?)

          ‘Just’ heavy ‘lodes’ and water high (Mining Claim land laws? Montana gold discovery in 1863 of their Mother Lode in Alder Gulch?)

          If you’ve bin w’Eyes (what book and magazine did Forrest throw in the trash bin?)

          But ‘tarry’ scant with ‘marvel’ gaze (flat rock covered on the underside with Pine Tar? Miss Ford’s Spanish pronounciation of the fricative v as ‘marble’? Get down on one knee like you are playing Ringer or kneeling at Shakespeare’s marble tomb?)

          ‘Just’ take the ‘chest’ and go in peace (Justinian and the Sophia building history? Wise? The heart in the human chest? Wise?)

          All my ideas and perceptions only. All IMO.

          • Correction: Kype as “keep”:

            Many male trout (e.g. Brown trout (Salmo trutta) and rainbow trout (Oncorhynchus mykiss)) and salmon develop a kype prior to spawning periods. In pre-spawning Salmo and Salvelinus males, the lower jaw elongates and the hook develops; female salmon do not develop a kype.

            Note: Rainbow trout is MY KISS, Afana.

            Giggles.

          • JW – Didn’t Forrest say the Poem was written by an Architect? The Hagia Sophia (means Wisdom) is the epitome of Bizantine architecture. But what I really want to know is, did Forrest create some kind of protective and artitic DOME over the bronze chest? What happened to all those pottery shards he found at San Lazaro Pueblo? I know there is sand readily available at my Double Omega Island:

            The Hagia Sophia construction consists of mostly masonry. The structure is composed of brick and mortar joints that are 1.5 times the width of the bricks. The mortar joints are composed of a combination of sand and minute ceramic pieces displaced very evenly throughout the mortar joints. This combination of sand and ceramic pieces could be considered to be the equivalent of modern concrete at the time.

            Hmmmm…

          • JW – Justinian. Roman law in Constantinople. See also: Private law and Canon law. And maybe the name Indulgence for the bronze chest. This was the beginning of the Medieval period.

    • MM;

      Michal has warned “Don’t mess with my poem” – or words very similar. Words ARE important and one should learn as many definitions as possible for each word in the poem (IMO) BUT, don’t change the words – like changing halt to salt. I think that that would fall into the “Messing with the poem” bracket – JMO – JDA

      • JDA,
        I looked on Tarry Scant for that quote and couldn’t find it. I do remember that Forrest said something like that (“don’t mess with my poem”), but since I couldn’t find it I’m going to have to rely on my memory about what triggered that particular response. That said, if memory serves me it was in response to someone leaving a word out or substituting a word in the poem. So did “mess with my poem” refer to not changing the original words but still leaving open the possibility of finding the clues (even with word play) within those words? Changing or deleting words would mess up any word play that involved a word that was altered, hence my suspicion that word play could be involved. Also when asked directly about anagrams he didn’t rule them in or out, so leaving the door open on that one. Lastly he says that the poem is in plain English, not that the clues are in plain English. So overall I don’t see a clear refutation of the possibility that word play is involved.

        I know we’ll probably disagree on this. I value your comments on the blog, but I also want to avoid discouraging other approaches, as the ones we’ve used so far haven’t produced the end result. Since Michael is pursuing word play I’m all for encouraging him to play with the words, letters and sounds of the poem since the quotes from Forrest seem to be ambiguous enough to allow for this as a possibility.

        • JW;

          Wordplay MAY have a role, but here is what I found:

          In “The Poem…Part Two”

          Dal makes a post on January 9, 2014 @ 8:57 and says the following:
          “Forrest listened to me for a little bit and then jumped in and told me very directly, “Don’t mess with my poem.”” – So, this is second hand, but then in SB 114 Forrest (himself) says, “That’d be tantamount to messing with my poem.” JDA

          • JDA,
            Thanks for finding those for me, I’m not great at tracking down quotes. Dal suggested that halt needed to be changed to a rhyming word in order to be able to interpret the poem. So he was triggering the delete or substitute a word change, that I agree is off limits. To illustrate this butterfly could be read as flutterby which still uses the word and it’s sounds (technically both an alphabetic and phonetic anagram), but not as moth, monarch, or lepidoptera which I see as substitutions.

            The other quote doesn’t seem to be in response to a question so I’m not sure how to interpret it on its own.

    • Michel, I wouldn’t change words unless told to do so. If the poem tells you to do it, then do it. But to just change for no reason would be foolish. And yes, the fifth line could be read as, Begin with warm water salt. (Epsom). It just depends on how you follow the instructions of the poem.

    • Hey-O, Michael M’land –

      The two bits you presented are examples of homophones (sound-alikes); there are other examples here:

      https://dalneitzel.com/2016/04/06/homophones/#comment-130637

      That forum never really caught on, but other homophone mentions are widely scattered throughout other topics.

      The justification is usually that the line “Hear me all and listen good” suggests the possibility (or necessity) of taking some liberties by exchanging the text as *heard* for the text as *written*.

      Jake

      • Thanks for the insight, Jake. I have been looking at the more obvious homophones as would become apparent when reading the poem slowly – nothing to hidden or obscure and without changing the words in the poem, just hearing it differently, as you have mentioned. Reading aloud reveals places in the poem to me where modifiers/adjectives could follow nouns, as in other languages, and change the meaning of a certain clue significantly.

    • Hi Michael, and welcome to the Chase!

      I’m not sure quite what to think about homophones playing a part in analyzing the poem. On the one hand, I can’t rule that out as a possibility, but on the other I do not see any strong evidence that the method should get so much attention as people have discussed here.

      Forrest has been quoted that the one who finds the chest will “read” the poem over and over and also will “study” the poem over and over. I can’t find any quote saying that the finder would “recite” or “read aloud” the poem over and over. If he had said something like that, then maybe I would pay more attention to the homophone side of things.

      On the home page of this blog, Dal describes Forrest a “master of double entendre”. I threw out the question for everyone if they could offer an example of Forrest using a double entendre and I didn’t hear any solid examples offered. I still question the idea of Forrest of being a master of double entendre. I think there’s plenty example of him using creative descriptions and imaginative metaphors, but I haven’t seen many examples of using double entendres, homophones, or puns for that matter. The biggest stretch of wordplay on Forrest’s part that I’ve seen is when he whimsically decided to call a butterfly a flutterby after a conversation with his granddaughter.

      As I said, I’m not ruling out this line of thinking, however at the moment I tend to be on the side of those who recommend not messing with the poem and just trying to figure out what the words that are written in the poem refer to. Maybe that’s too unimaginative?

      • Blex;

        Double entendre = a word or phrase open to two interpretations. Here are a few possibilities:

        “…Take it in…” Take it in can mean to travel down or “Take in a view”

        “Not far, but too far to walk” can mean a distance measurement – or it can mean “Not deadly, but too dangerous to walk.”

        Put in BELOW the hoB” – a place more distant from or a place lower in elevation than…

        “No paddle up your creek” – A paddle can not be used as in a canoe or small boat or a play on the “Up a creek without a paddle.”

        “The end is ever drawing nigh – end getting closer or end is to the left (or right) even a “drawing-like” something to be seen.

        “Look quickly down” – Look directly down or look down in elevation or look for a place with a pungent aroma.

        But Tarry scant” – stay for only a brief time or A black stone with at least one flat side.

        “Just take the chest” – Take Indulgence away – or – take your chest (yourself) away.

        “Go in peace” – leave with peaceful thoughts or go in the direction that a peace sign might indicate.

        “So why must I go and leave” – Go and leave = same thing – two leaves = two leafs or go a distance and leave the area

        “Done it tired” – completed an arduous task or went to a lower place in elevation

        “And now I’m weak” – lacking strength or Watered down, like a drink.

        “So hear me all and listen good” – Pay attention of listen for a particular sound.

        “If you are brave” – If you are stouthearted or If you are strong enough.

        “In the wood” – In a forested place or looking in the wood lined chest.

        I am sure that there are more, but these are the ones that jump out at me. … a word or phrase open to two interpretations.= Double Entendre. Hope this helps – JDA

        • Hello JDA. Could “go” also mean to “arrive” to the place? I had thought about the stanza this morning and wondered if it could be something like the Eisenhower/Johnson tunnels in Colorado. To arrive and leave, the increase in elevation (tired) and decrease in elevation (weak). I’m not sure if it makes sense. Trying to understand his use of words, what they could mean and to visualize a place on a map seems to lead us in many directions, but there’s only one correct answer to each clue.

          • There could be more than one correct answer to a clue,
            without invalidating its usefulness.

            Here’s an example: In my solve, there are several places WWWH, all of which work equally well.
            As always, IMO.

          • Hello Tall Andrew. I concur. It’s finding the correct WWWH and applying the following clues to the place(s) on the map. One could consider WWWH to Yellowstone National Park where waters (geysers and basins) halt. Each thermal area when considered as such could apply. Could each be correct? Possible. I had considered Los Alamos laboratory as a possible WWWH. Sandy was gracious to remind me that this area is not above the 8.25 miles from the Santa Fe northern city limits, so I had to scratch that idea.

            Sandy, I to thank you for the information you shared in the previous Odds and Ends page. You have been so kind in all of your responses to me.

            Alsetenash, I wish to thank you for your reply and thoughts from the previous page, too.

      • Is Forrest the Master of the Double Entendre – Based on the above, I would think so – JMO – JDA

        • But JDA – All of those lines you have listed are just lines from the poem that may or may not be double entendres. There is no way to confirm or deny if any of those phrases are double entendres unless someone solves the poem.

          To clarify: I am asking if there are examples of Forrest using double entendres outside of the poem (interviews, writings, Q&A’s, etc. etc.) that are obviously double entendres, which would confirm that Forrest likes speaking in double entendre in the first place.

          • Blex, off hand, the one I can think of references the poem and an ATF. But like you said, until someone solves the whole thing, we will not know.
            Poem: Not far but too far to walk.
            ATF: if you are walking long distances looking for the treasure, you are walking too far.
            It all sounds like we will not be walking far, but, he defines “too far” as a “long distances”.
            So, the poem could be actually saying:
            Not far but “long distances” to walk. So, we are actually walking long distances.
            If you apply another ATF, where he said that he walked less than a “few” miles, you would need to find where he defines “few”. (which he does). That write up would be too lengthy.
            Point being, you can find your “double entendre” in things f has said, but you would need to have the solve like you said to prove it.
            is his rainbow seen at 42 degrees, or is it a rainbow halo seen in the mountains at 22 degrees? Or is it a name of a place?
            Rule of thumb being, he knows he says things that can have multiple meanings, he gives the answers or tells us what he means when he wants us to know. It’s the things we find that he does not answer where we need to direct our attention. IMO, and usually, IMO, best to interpret in the “non-popular” way. As in, we will be walking a long distance…(the word that is key defines what “a few” is). (A “few” are in tight focus with a word “that” is key). Hint- page 15, TTOTC. ATF, finding bells in the year 12016. ATF, bury 28 more of those things.
            One day I will explain…

  69. I think a lot of people believe that “where warm waters halt” refers to locations where the warmth of the waters halt, as in where a hot spring empties into a coldwater stream, however in this phrase I think that it is clear that the waters are what’s stopping, not the warmth. It can still be argued that “warm waters” will halt once they cease to be warm, but let’s set that idea aside for the moment and focus on the kinetic motion of water that is doing the halting.

    Where does the kinetic motion of water stop, other than at a dam? Well, if you follow a stream up to its source it halts eventually. You can also follow a stream up to its source and run into a glacier or permanent snowfield, which is also the halting of water. A tarn is a mountain lake with no outlet, however if we’re following a canyon down next, then there must be some sort of outlet forming the canyon with water erosion. If a stream goes underground, would that be considered a halt on at least the surface? It would at least seem so, say to a flyfisherman walking along the stream I suppose, but the water keeps moving. Perhaps the precipice of a waterfall is similar. Water could also loosely halt if it is caught in a whirlpool or eddy in a current, but it eventually keeps going. If water dumps into a volcano I suppose it turns to steam and halts at that point, but I’m not aware of any areas like this in the Rockies.

    That’s all I got. Am I missing any other broad ideas as to how the kinetic motion of waters could halt in natural geography?

    • Hi Blex;

      I agree with most of your ideas. I especially like you idea of water halting at the base of a waterfall, and I also like your idea of water halting when it goes underground. Both of these ideas fit my most recent solve. Thanks for posting – JDA

      • You bet, JDA!

        Another idea that I forgot to include in the summary list above that others have brought up before: the apex of a geyser eruption before the water falls back to earth.

        • Why the apex? Why not just a geyser? Water flows (erupts), then it stops (temporarily) and then it flows (erupts) again. The very definition of a halt. A temporary stoppage. I don’t think the apex is important at all, but am good with a geyser.

          • Yellowdog – I’d be fine with the geyser itself too. It’s really the same point when viewing from overhead on a map either way.

          • yellowdog,

            A geyser is a good thought, but is the water really warm? I’d dismiss the thought because the water is truly super heated and it is of one water that comes out, not waters. IMO

            Just A thought and good luck.

          • I am not terribly hung up on the temperature. A couple of thoughts. First off it is still water (under pressure) and it is warmed beyond your typical water or stream. Re: water v. waters–it is flowing, so I can see it going either way. And if it had to be singular, then perhaps a geyser basin.

        • Hey Charlie – are you aware of Geyser Spring near Dolores? It is not super-heated, and in fact only 82 degrees more or less. Check out the pictures online – what in blue blazes LOL. The Forest Service states that Geyser Spring is the only true geyser in Colorado. It’s an easy walk in (in another month or so).

    • If kinetic motion halts isnt it called something else?
      I think its quite simple, liquid water can only halt when it turns to a solid.
      Or when it is represented in a painting or photograph.

      • BadgeR – It’s not the kinetic motion itself that is the noun in the poem that is halting; rather it is the waters that are doing the action of halting. I’m not sure what one calls kinetic motion that halts… I guess maybe a “halt”? (Hmmm, now we have a noun where there was once a verb.)

        At any rate, maybe taking the question you posed and swapping out the noun of the poem may get us somewhere thinking in another direction: “If waters halt, aren’t they called something else?”

        Glaciers? Icebergs? Snowfields? Deserts? Swamps? Tarns?

    • Blex,

      You could look at it as a time thing also. The Yellowstone geyser system is broad. Not all of it is active as of today. Call it “dormant”. So if warm waters of a geyser are now “dormant”, I would say they halted.
      Water is always moving, molecules always in motion, so to actually say water halts, then it would have to not be there. But could return. Kind of like flooding. A place could flood, dry up, in which water would halt, then flood over again. Thus water “halting” instead of stopping all together. You can get this effect from a “dormant” geyser system.
      If your start spot happens to be on land which is part of a geyser system, just dormant as of now, that could be a good qualifier.
      Even at a geyser’s apex, water is still moving. The only true way water stops moving is if it’s not there. With the temporary meaning of halt, then a dry area that was once wet, and has the ability to be wet again, could be a good start spot. Nothing about ol’ Faithful is halting. It would need to be “dormant’ to halt.

      • Poisonivey – Those are some good ideas! I like them! Along that same line of thinking, maybe a gulch, arroyo, or intermittent stream could be considered as other features where waters have halted.

        I wonder how many dormant geysers are out there in the Rocky Mountains?

        • And how many of them f knows about. I would guess the entire Yellowstone system, but that reaches out passed Yellowstone. Probably the entire Rockies. I’m sure we could research and find out. With that thought, we would not be looking for geysers or hot springs, but the lack of those things. That sounds like something f would use. Lol, look for geysers but geysers that cannot be seen.

          • poisonivey,

            An other thought along the lines of water halting, could also be when the snow pack is gone creeks and even a river could halt.

            As for warm, doesn’t necessarily mean at its source. As water flows slowly, it can warm up. Food for thought?

    • Blex,

      I completely agree with your ideas of the kinetic motion of waters. The idea that physics in the real world plays a lot in finding wwwh, usually is dismissed, just because of the word, “warm”. Where warm water meets the cold is not the halting, simply because the waters are still moving. IMO I’ll go strongly with logic and physics.

      Just Say’n

      • Besides which, this is beginning to feel very Steven Kingish, not sure I want to go there, anyway!

      • Thanks, CharlieM! Have you thought of any other instances in geography where waters may halt other than the ones I was able to think of?

        • Blex,

          One source that collects other sources to make waters.

          That is all that I can say, without revealing any more. Hope this helps.

          • Michael & CharlieM – I thought of clouds too. Difficult to pin down the location of a cloud on a map, unless you are looking at geographic features like mountains or lakes that have cloud-related proper names (of which I have found many that exist in the Rockies).

            Other ideas to what CharlieM may be alluding too:
            A lake, underground lake, pond, marshland, or river fed by several springs, streams, tributaries, glaciers, or waterfalls. Also possibly man-made structures or facilities like water towers, mills, spas, water treament facilities, etc.

          • Blex – Did you mention “ponds”?

            Below my WWWH at Madison Junction, there is a slow, meandering section, that probably would have been made into a pond by some dam Beaver, if Joe Meek and Osborne Russell hadn’t made that area “no place” for them. But Craig Matthews, who wrote the book on the Madison River (literally), said there was Potamogeton weed growing there. As there is in the Potamogeton Pond at the trailhead for my Tea Trail #205 (Red-Black-Green) out Beaver Creek.

            Sadly, many Beavers are gone now. If this ‘no place for the Meek’ stretch still had Beavers creating their deep ponds with dams, to evade preditors, and their elaborate lodges, as landing spots for vegetation and other species, this area would eventually become a forest fenn; the marsh you mentioned. That would be a place, right there, to describe WWWH. IMO. And it is an awesome place to fish for Brown trout, in the deep holes below the cut banks, during the Fall run up from Hebgen Lake. Per Craig Matthews.

            Maybe Beaver reintroduction will be successful? That would certainly help to restore the forest canopy that was destroyed by killing the Wolves and Beavers in the Greater Yellowstone Ecosystem. And then, maybe “in the wood” will still apply in the Poem. In a hundred years, or so.

      • CharlieM wrote: “… kinetic motion of waters … IMO I’ll go strongly with logic and physics.”
        ———————————————-
        Logic, most definitely. Physics >>> no.

        Even basic physics reeks of specialized knowledge, and is way too technical to be relevant to determine WWWH, in my opinion.

        Would suggest another approach.

        Ken (in Texas)

        • Ken (in Texas) – Right. The Redneck from Texas can just get the physics message from TTOTC, where Forrest was taking a bath, and his water quiclky got cold. So he either went to take a hot shower for 50¢ at the Union Pacific Station in West Yellowstone (steam trains) or he rode his bicycle to Ojo Caliente (Hot Eye) to bathe. And where does all that hot water In THERE run out? Where the Firehole River meets the Madison River at Madison Junction.

          Both of these metaphoric solutions are alike, IMO: A Junction of Warm Rivers and a Junction of Steam Trains. All IMO.

      • The only thing is, this is just a line from a poem. And it was written from the interpretation of one man–who is intentionally trying to make this illusive and difficult to find. I guess what I am saying, is there is very little that I would absolutely rule out. ie in the above, yes the water flows, but the warmth has ended. or per many others thoughts, what if it is the name that is halting: firehole river and others.

        • yellowdog – For my WWWH, the warm, named Firehole and Gibbon Rivers end, right where the named Madison River begins. Looks like a Y = Why in WY on my topo map. I also noted the boundary with Montana (is that also the Yellowstone Caldera Boundary?) further downstream, where the water is decidedly colder.

          But the Brown trout run in Fall, upstream from Hebgen Lake, to a not too warm place, perfect for their habitat, just below my WWWH. And that is where the Madison River begins. And where the idea for YNP began.

          I just don’t see a better fit than my “IT”. For a pilot, a fly fisherman and a young boy who grew up riding his bike to Ojo Caliente to bathe. And who probably knew that Brown trout were first introduced above Firehole Falls at Nez Perce Creek. Because he was a fly fishing guide in YNP. All IMO.

    • Get off the absolute, Mr. Fenn is a self described non scholarly type who likes flutterbys. And Tall, the only dictionary I’ve used in the chase has been the one that aids in understanding Mrs. Ford. I’m sure that the “canasta” reference has nothing to do with strategy, it has to do with the clues and the point that the game changes from a poker hand to developing a meld. IMO from many, many, many, BOTG trips.

      • ChickenOne – Yes. I played Canasta as a child. In a big family. And that is why I know how to meld with others. Still working on how I can do that for BOTG, though. I Soooo want to go “alone in there”, as Forrest said he has.

    • Kinda like a water fountain? And of course little kids have to have help up to get a drink – unless of course there is a step or stool.

  70. I want to say thank you to everyone for being so inviting and willing to share with me, the newbie. This is a very welcoming community, and although I am not here for the social aspect, more to learn, I appreciate camaraderie you all share.

    One thing about the Chase that I wanted to share was the overall theme of Forrest wanting to leave a legacy of good will – to have positively affected the place and people he considers home, and I feel like he is accomplishing this goal. Forrest’s experiences seem to parallel that of some other authors and poets he respects and I think in those experiences, whether his own or others, are the keys that unlock his poem. I have thought for some time that all the clues are experiences that relate to places rather than the topographic features themselves. In as much as the book, poem, a good map, and some imagination are all that’s needed to solve this… There is no way to describe this without coming off as a loon but as a turning point of clarity where one finds peace. Solitude and other factors play a part in this but just like the instances Forrest mentions that were mystical or transcendent in nature but also tied together, I believe we are searching for those connections, some consciously, and others, unconsciously. I have tried contacting Dal on a few occasions because he first voiced this opinion in the public forum as a sort of vision quest. If he prefers not, I understand, but it is interesting to me.

    • Michael Moreland – Your thoughts and your perceptions of our journey on The Chase are beautiful. Thank you for sharing them!

      I also see so many metaphors to this transformative experience in poetry and literature. Like in “The Song of Wandering Aengus” and “The Hourglass”, both penned by William Butler Yeats. And in the full text of that poem by T.S. Eliot from “The Four Quartets”; the one with “know the place for the first time” in it. There is a “hidden waterfall” in the part Forrest didn’t use as an excerpt, FYI.

      And as to your, “coming off as a loon” comment, I learned a lot from those “funny books” Forrest liked to read in West Yellowstone, and from Looney Toons as a child. Especially from Wile E. Coyote vs. the Roadrunner. Sometimes humor sneaks knowledge into the subconscious.

      • Lisa, could you talk more about the Wile E. Coyote vs Roadrunner connection? Thank you, Michael

        • Michael Moreland – Wile E. Coyote is a Super Genius, yet the Roadrunner continues to outwit him, staying ahead in The Chase. Kinda like Forrest doing that with us Chasers, IMO. Ingenuity. Thinking outside the box.

          And didn’t Forrest ‘entitle’ his last treasure book, “Once Upon A While”? Sounds like the title of a famous play written by Shakespeare the Super Genius:

          wile1
          /wīl/
          Learn to pronounce
          noun
          plural noun: wiles
          1.
          devious or cunning stratagems employed in manipulating or persuading someone to do what one wants.
          “she didn’t employ any feminine wiles to capture his attention”
          synonyms: tricks, ruses, ploys, schemes, dodges, maneuvers, gambits, subterfuges, cunning stratagems, artifices, devices, contrivances; guile, artfulness, art, cunning, craftiness
          “feminine wiles”
          verb
          3rd person present: wiles
          1.
          ARCHAIC
          lure; entice.
          “she could be neither driven nor wiled into the parish kirk”
          2.
          another way of saying while something away (see while).

          • Michael Moreland – I will continue to ‘while’ away the hours, posting here at Dal’s, until Bessie the Cow comes home.

            Love, Bess (QE1)

          • Lisa, I have to admit you got spunk!
            If I may inquire, I read somewhere you mentioned circumpunct or was it certain punk? Anyways, could you elaborate more on its meaning and use?

            Thank you

          • NearIndianaJones – Could you be more specific? I have elaborated about the Circumpunct in every way I know how to, here at Dal’s.

            How about doing a Google Sesrch?:

            dalneitzel.com Circumpunct Lisa

            Probably oodles of posts there.

            And I liked your homophone, Jerry.

          • I enjoyed watching the event and giggled when Shiloh mentioned to Mr. Fenn about the woman asking who his stylist was. Humor seems to run in the family.

          • Lisa now I’m blushing, thank you for your reply, guess I should have followed your posts more intently, but there sooo many lol.
            I will take your advice and look for it by myself.

          • NearIndianaJones – That’s OK, Jerry. I know it is hard to keep up with me, when I am firing on all cylinders.

            Hey! You could make it up to me by taking point on the Cabin Creek Trail! Then I can finally get past My Grizz to get to my hidey spot! How fast can you run???

            Giggles.

    • “Forrest’s experiences seem to parallel that of some other authors and poets he respects…”

      In the May issue of WIRED magazine is an article about Lost Treasures by Douglas Preston. It is an interesting read.

      J

      • Hi Joe,

        What an incredibly sad story. Can you elaborate on the connection here?

        Thank you,
        Michael

        • Douglas’s article depicts an example of one man’s tangle with time and nature. In his search for answers, the man is dealt a blow emotionally, by time, then foiled physically by nature. It is a battle the man cannot win. Yet he felt compelled to try – up to a point. Likewise, Forrest searches for something. Thinking of the future, both men buried/hid treasure. In both cases it will become part of their past. If we searchers can figure out why they did this, it may help us figure out where Forrest did this.

          Oh, Douglas also writes “…ugly knowledge is a feature of our age, a result of the internet carrying to our doorstep…all manner of brutal information.”
          I think he is saying we ALL should spend less time on the internet. Just like Forrest wanting to get kids off their texting machines, right?

          What do you think Michael? Am I on the right path here?

          • Hi Joe,

            I have a 1, 9, and 10 year old boys who I would like to take on some great adventures. They are such a virtual generation – a generation of screens and digital “life” but really lacking in formative real world experiences. They’re young but I need to make sure now that they their experiences are “real”. It’s a challenge.

            I came upon TTOTC around 9-10 years ago and have taken up researching solves on and off since that time. Honestly, I’m in it for the adventure and the gold and I would like to bring my boys with me into the adventure of the search. I believe once they get a taste of real adventure, myself included, we will never be satisfied with a mundane virtual existence behind a screen. It’s just not how we were designed.

            The information age could be well termed the misinformation age. We are inundated with information and a lot of it is totally useless. Imagination is more important than knowledge but wisdom is more important than imagination, IMO.

            I think you’re definitely on the right path, Joe. Safe travels.

      • Thank you for the link, joe. Mr. Preston’s story was well written and left me feeling sad of a time when I did an online search and saw how time repeated itself. Sometimes those things that are buried are best left that way. When I was in the fifth grade, the entire 5th grade did a time capsule and each placed a little something in the jar. I think I drew a little picture of the American flag. It was buried in the school’s courtyard and would be dug up in 25 years. My family and I moved to Colorado three years later, and I do not know if anyone remembers that it was done. I’m curious to know if it was found or it was forgotten and still remains buried. Makes me wonder about those who participated of what they’re doing now and what they’re like all these years. Thank you for the article, Mr. Preston, and once again to you, joe, for posting the link.

        • pdenver, my fifth grade class did the same. 25 years later my contribution came back to me. It was a nice picture card of all the American Presidents up to that point. I had forgotten all about it. I am thankful to the one who remembered and took the time to get these things back to their leavers. To hold a forgotten past in hand is priceless. g

          • Hello ace 340. I’m glad to hear you experienced what you did. I concur with your thoughts.

  71. I have an observation and question about the map in TTOTC, opposite the poem. This is probably not the right topic forum for this question. Where would I post that question?

  72. This is a stupid Q, but hopefully someone can point me in the right direction. This is in regards to navigation. So it appears that there are likely 15 pages of WWWH that have been written and closed and a new one started. My question is, since i want to begin it at the beginning, I would like to be able to go back to WWWH1, WWWH2, etc. Is there an easy way to navigate this way. Otherwise I would need to know the year/month/date the page was created, and that becomes a time-consuming crap-shoot. Thanks for any help.

    • Yellowdog;

      Go to the top of any thread.
      On the right side you will find – Searchers Discussions – click on it
      A screen will come up – scroll down to WWWH archives – click on it
      You will find a list of all of the old threads – most recent at the top.
      Scroll to the bottom for WWW-1

      Hope this helps – JDA

  73. The wwwh I have been searching has got 2 canyon down they both have hob. Searched them both without any success of finding the blaze , Mr. ff you got me beat

  74. Why would anyone ignore the word “warm” in the poem like it’s not even there?
    Because it’s not a noun?
    To me it describes “waters”.
    Qualifier.

    • Jake – you made me think on this one. Warm could mean tepid or lukewarm. Not really too hot nor too cold – but just right. Somewhere in the middle – like in the story The Three Bears. Just comfortable.

    • Jake, I assume you mean the bathing spot in the Firehole, and not in the kitchen. This has been my WWWH since 2015. Maybe it is too obvious to be the correct one. My HOB in the Nez Pearce creek that enters the Firehole River just a short distance from Ojo Caliente, where Brown Trout were first introduce in the late 1800’s.
      The Fire hole canyon is in the right spot as well as Firehole falls about 10 miles down the Canyon which make a great water high snfd id too far for me to walk. All you have to do is fine the right blaze. LOL Good luck .
      If you haven’t read about my BOTG read “Red Neck From Texas” in others adventures.

      • Hey Not Obsessed…I think you have likely hiked up Nez Perce Creek from Ojo Caliente. There is a nice warm spring that enters into the Nez Perce a few hundred yards west of the bridge (between the Firehole and highway bridge).The bathing is sublime and very private (at least in late fall). I found a tipi ring nearby and also some old glass and crockery. I recommend that spot highly…check it out!!

  75. Jake,
    The question that wwwamerican asked, I take it at was, does the www in where warm waters halt (wwwh) could it have reference to World Wide Web? For me that is no, but is the World Wide Web important in the chase I would say yes. Only because it is used for research.

    Jake, what you posted I once concidered and even looked in to, when I was in Yellowstone area in the beginning of my chase. Not sure if this area hasn’t been picked over by many since then.

    Thanks for the reply,
    Bur

    • That area has been picked over thoroughly but they and I have missed the chest but I doubt it. I don’t think the chest is anywhere near WWWH. I think the chest is at least 20 -75 miles away.

        • Based on my interpretation of the poem.
          I’m not as paranoid as many here that never share any places, areas, spots or even states. Thanks to those that have and do!
          I think if they did share, they would learn more about their theories and places but possibly burst their ballon, which they don’t want. And of course, they are absolutely sure their area or 1st clue is correct and they would be giving away too much even though they are probably giving away nothing.

          First clue is Fenn’s bathing area or spot which is not in a canyon seeing you have to take the quest “IN* the canyon down”, Firehole Canyon is the only canyon around and may explain why and how so many have figured the first 2 clues.

          Not far, but too far too walk – doesn’t strike me as a clue after thinking it was for about a year and coming to a conclusion seeing “too far to walk” is the title of his second memoir. Just letting us know that you need transportation. Why title a book after a clue in the poem? Just doesn’t make sense to me.

          Put in below the home of Brown as the 3rd clue is the only clue that I think Fenn will go to the grave with and no one will actually figure out exactly where that is but to me it doesn’t matter seeing you “put in” when you hit Madison Junction.
          Water/boat/floatable terminology tells me it’s in water.
          As I stated before on this blog, it doesn’t really matter where you put in “water” such as a lake pond, river or stream, it only matters where you draw out! Think about that for a minute.

          From there (where you put in) it’s no place for the meek is Yellowstone National Park and seeing you put in the Madison floating down stream, you will end up at the border. When you are out of TNP it’s a place for the meek.

          These 4 cluse are about 20 miles from WWWH.

          When you’re at the border of the park in West Yellowstone on the river, there is a bridge about 1000 ft away going across the river. NIGH North Intrastate Gallatin Highway.
          Gives direction and it’s near.

          The end is ever drawing nigh; 5th clue and word that is key: NIGH and what’s the shape of Gallatin County?
          Gallatin Gateway, where a gate needs a key?

          6th clue is up your creek and that may be where I go wrong but there are about 35 creeks on the Gallatin.

          So the clues take you out of the park and head north where it’s not so crowded where Peggy, Forrest & Joe were fishing on the Gallatin but if you go that far, you went too far and the pick with Joe tells me that.

          • Thanks for the detailed break-down of how you see the poem. You may be correct, or you may not. I wish you the best of luck Jake. You have been steadfast in your interpretation – Again, good luck – JDA

          • Jake, Thank you for your explanation. My theory has me in your neighborhood. Since my theory has a very specific end point, I will not share. I will tell you that my TFTW is quite a bit shorter distance from a different WWH. Funny the variables.
            Good luck to you Jake, Maybe I’ll see you in the hood here in a few weeks. I was there already once this Spring but there was indeed too much snow.

            I will tell you this…..since this will be my last BOTG……If I fail to locate the chest I will completely reveal where it is not! Then I check the eff out of this madness.
            SJM

          • I don’t think luck will play any part of finding the treasure but you may need some to keep yourself alive and safe in this everyday life. Good luck, that is.
            Last BOTG?
            See you in the hood.

  76. Marry the poem “with” a PLACE on the map; you already have the words in the poem, but each of the 9 clues need a mate, stop picking apart of the clues and just find their perfect match. Wwwh”s is single and wants to be hitched, name a place on the map along the Rocky’s that you might think would make a good pair so everyone could look up there background and give their opinion weather they would make a good couple.

  77. Great point, Lisa. I have a spot I’m considering and will put it out there. Valles Calderes, NM. I’ve spent some time searching south of Aibquiu using a different WWWH. Canyones, NM lies along Canyones Creek. It would make a great ‘canyon down’. I have no clue about HOB. Originally, I was going to use the Abiquiu Reservoir for my WWWH but the Valles Calderes makes more sense.

    What does everyone think?

    • Question Michael – Is the Valle Caldera in the Rocky Mountains? I know that the Valle Caldera is in the Jamez mountains., and there has been some discussion as to whether the Jamez mountains are a part of the Rocky Mountains – Just curious.

      One could take the position that a clue could reside outside of the Rocky Mountains, and then the clues lead them into the Rocky Mountains, and that Indulgence could be IN the Rocky Mountains, even if a clue or two were not.

      Just curious about you view – JDA

      • That is a great point, JDA. In fact, it definitely swings my thinking. The reason I was not going to pursue Abiquiu was due to the area not being in the Rocky Mountains, same reasoning for my Rio Grande Del Norte National Monument (Red River) solve. While the idea of a WWWH being related to seismic and thermal activity (past or present), I am trying to narrow down my search areas for my June trip.

        It does look like the Jemez Mountains are in the Rio Grande rift. I talked with a Geologist yesterday that confirmed this rift and the Taos Basin are not considered to be in the Rocky Mountains.

        Thanks for saving me some time.

        • Michael,

          I would be cautious about summarily ruling out a location this way. I recently read a response by FF to a question or a comment, and it had to do with whether or not a location was technically in the Rocky Mountains. FF’s answer was that since the location appeared on his map that had been printed in TFTW, FF said that the location was fair game. I will do my best to go search for the citation on this quote, I know it is important to read exactly what FF says in context so as to properly interpret it.

    • Michael..I love the Valles Caldera and Forrest has said he does too in a response to one of Cynthia’s searches several years ago. You may not find the treasure (who knows) but there is warm water and it is a wildlife haven. Bring your binoculars…it is truly a beautiful place. Good luck!

      • The VC is on the TFTW map and > than 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe. IMO it’s legit. Also, the fishing is fantastic…big browns.

        • Michael,
          I think that Valles Caldera is what the first stanza refers to, so I’m with you on that. It’s an interesting and beautiful place, definitely worth a visit even if it’s not your search spot. My interpretation of the poem does lead one out of VC, so I don’t consider it a good place to look for the chest.

          At one point I had El Cajete, in the southwest part of VC, as my WWWH since one slang usage of that word is for urinal. That led nowhere though, so I’ve moved on to a more ridiculous interpretation of that line (ridiculous as judged by the blogosphere, absolutely brilliant by my own estimation of course).

  78. Great thinking Lisa.
    Kinda like the internet dating sites; especially Gofishdating.com
    Once we find the perfect match, then we are off to the altar.
    Ha Ha Ha.

  79. I have a theory, but is obviously purely speculation. I can come up with 3 or 4 excellent WWWHs,and all have a respectable CD. NFBTFTW, I have ideas depending on which path I am taking. It could be a place, it could be a distance, it could be a riddle; nothing firm here. But PI or HOB or PIBTHOB is where i get really stumped. But since this in a WWWH tab….I waver. My best guesses are this refers to a geyser (specific), is a riddle, or is referring to warm waters, which are warm by name. But if it were the latter, warm would likely be capitalized like brown. I struggle with Brown, because FF doesn’t generally capitalizes brown the color. I see in researching and it has been mentioned that he does capitalize species. I have an excellent HOB, but I think it is too obscure or specialized knowledge. All of this is IMHO.

    Can anyone give me a sound reason they think that WWWH would not be a geyser?

    • Yellowdog;

      If one Google searches ” temperatures of most geysers” – The answer will come back: “199 °F – Due to the Yellowstone Plateau’s high elevation the average boiling temperature at Yellowstone’s geyser basins is 199 °F (93 °C).”

      This seems a bit higher than what I might consider “WARM” or as Forrest has said “Comfortable.”

      When does a geyser “halt”? At the apex? As it splashes down? If the water then flows down a creek or stream – Has it halted? If it gathers in a pool, how can one then “take it in the Canyon Down?

      Not trying to shoot down your idea, just asking questions that I am sure you have already asked yourself – Just askin’ – JDA

    • Hi Yellowdog, I think a geyser is as good a guess as any for WWWH. Other related possibilities are a hot spring or a place where hot spring waters enters a cold mountain stream.

      As for the capital B– grammar dictates only proper nouns are capitalized. Anything else is stretching the poem to fit a guessed HoB, IMO.

      • Muset;

        You say, ” grammar dictates only proper nouns are capitalized”

        True, but hasn’t Forrest commented, to the effect, that he is not much of a fan of grammar? Paraphrasing.

        I have always thought that the Capital “B” was for emphasis.

        Like “Home of the Brave” could denote the USA or the men who have lived , fought and died to keep America free. JMHO – JDA

        • Hi JDA, I’m not sure I agree with capitalizing for emphasis, but I will agree with capitalizing a reference to the title of a book, poem, song, essay, or movie.

          I would prefer to write your example as Home Of The Brave.

    • Yellow dog,

      I somewhat agree with JDA on the water as being too hot. A geyser has one source of water as in singular. The concern should be based on waters as plural, having more than 2 sources.

      I believe F is being literal about wwwh, as the water truly does halt. Halt in the understanding in every day use of the word means the same as stop. Now if one chooses to look up halt and use those other meanings outside of the the common use that really becomes specialized knowledge.

      Didn’t F tell us that the poem is straightforward and in plain English? Waters is plural and halt is equal to stop in plain English and straightforward as you hear the words and read them.

      IMO the merging of cold and hot does momentarily become warm, in true reality the waters Do Not halt, and to believe otherwise is only a mistake and not factually correct. I honestly believe Forrest has written the poem on factual things instead of what I will call fantasies and speculation without a sound bases (not factual).

      If I offended anyone I am sorry it is just how I see things.

      Just Say’n

      • CharlieM;

        I think I have posted this a time or two before, but still think it applies:

        Let’s say that “Tepid Creek” originates at a hot spring farther up Tepid Mountain. Its warm waters flow downhill, and eventually merge with the “Big River”. From the point of their convergence on, as an entity, the waters of Tepid Creek halt, or cease to exist. Those waters now become known as the waters of the Big River.
        At each point where waters join the waters of the Big River, those names are not added to the Big River. It does not become the Tepid Creek/Big River etc. Therefore; at the point of convergence, or confluence, Tepid Creek, in effect, halts, or ceases to exist as an entity.

        This makes sense to me, it may not maker sense to you – JDA

        • JDA,

          You said “Let’s say” which I intrepid as an idea coming from you. Congrats you have imagination. I only seeing a merging of water that doesn’t stop in your example.

          I disagree with your conclusion

          • Hmmm… I am glad that none of your arguments, have swayed my thoughts… Why? Because a prime definition of halt, is a temporary stoppage. And I don’t know that the 190 degrees bothers me either. So in my opinion, still fair game… Geyser flow has nothing to do with merging. And flowing water, is often referred to as waters, especially poetically. Lawyered…

          • I don’t know how to explain it better Charlie. At the convergence point, that thing that I called “Tepid Creek” Halted or stopped as an entity. Sure, the waters that “were” Tepid Creek” still exist, but they have lost their identity. The combined waters of Tepid Creek and Big River and now known only by the name “Big River”. – There is no longer any reference to the waters of Tepid Creek. Hope this is clearer – JDA

          • Yes halt could be temporary, stop could be temporary. Halt could mean in permanent or elongated condition over a period of time, this applies to stop as well.

            I believe its a elongated condition and not permanent, ie, seasonal.

        • I personally don’t have an issue with this. I would concur that the termination of a stream, creek; whatever, if only in name, would indeed constitute a halt (of that name). One of my 4 WWWH is exactly this. Probably along with about 5000 others… And likely the exact same spot…

      • CharlieM: “I believe F is being literal about wwwh, as the water truly does halt.”

        Charlie, you typed “wwwh” correct?
        Then you typed: “water truly does halt.”
        That’s not literal seeing you left out some details.

        wwwh = Where WARM waters halt. Right?

        Why do people keep ignoring “warm”? Like it’s not in that line of the poem directly placed before waterS?

        Nearly all of them are in the Rocky’s north of Santa Fe…

        • Jake,

          I’m not ignoring warm waters I am currently taking about the word halt. I believe we can examine the words warm, waters and halt, now if warm is your concern, you can work on that as well.

          • Right,
            And “halt” describes what “warm waters” are doing in the poem. Glad you agree.
            All these words in this line is a concern and they are all needed in figuring it out.

        • Jake – It was a typo, waters. I won’t go into my full theory, and I know you dislike someone that doesn’t share some of theories, water in the mountains joins other water and becomes waters. I don’t believe its a combination at the beginning, there hast to be a single source where combinations later occurs to make waters.

          As far as me not sharing locations for examples
          is my wish, if others do share, great! Paranoid, no, just being smart. Jake this relates to your comments you made earlier about folks not sharing. I hope your evening goes well catch ya later. -:)

          All IMO

          • CharlieM: “and I know you dislike someone that doesn’t share some of theories”

            That’s not true Charlie, Just because some of you ignore “warm” doesn’t give me enough negative true life experience to dislike anyone especially when we have never met in person.

            I neither “like” or “dislike” people here based on their opinions although those that don’t offer any opinions or post nothing that is related to the Chase, then I do not like what they do here, not necessarily “dislike someone” just don’t agree with their theory and sharing and debates is what this site is about. If you get what I mean.

            I appreciate your feedback as well as many others here but when folks don’t back up their theory or statements and expect everyone to believe them and just tell us what they think they know then a red flag goes up.

            When some post here that don’t offer places and debate others that offer information such as places on a map and never offer places of their own here, then another red flag goes up and I wonder how they could be criticizing them when they haven’t offered a place for any place married to a map and the poem.

            I would call them hypocrites but doesn’t mean I dislike them, it just means they are human like me.

          • Just to make myself clear.
            How could anyone know they “dislike someone” here based upon what they post here?

            This blog is a small part of most people’s life and to make that decision based alone from this blog what others think about the Chase is narrow minded and shallow.
            You may dislike what I say but I know you like me. 🙂
            I love you ❤

          • Jake, the way that you wrote about those who don’t share at around 2 pm today up thread came across as a dislike. What can say? Regardless of what you say doesn’t mean I dislike you. I’ve never met you, I can’t form an opinion, I merely don’t agree with your thought process in regards to the Chase.

            Thanks, I like people, loving only comes after I know them, but hey thanks.

          • Thanks for clarifying CharlieM,
            Maybe not “thought process” but maybe thoughts about the chase works for me.
            We can have the same “thought process” but still come up with different thoughts.
            Does that make sense?

  80. What would y’all think if I said – I believe – that WWWH has nothing to do with water (as we know it) or with temperature. That of course is only “in my opinion.”

    • I would say that you think Fenn is being deceptive with his poem and that the poem is not straightforward and there are red herrings which I think is out of the box thinking and I think he told us to get back in the box. Etc….
      “Begin it where” may mean nothing as well…

      • I might disagree with that.
        I think we do need to follow his instructions exactly – to the letter.
        And “Begin it where” is very important if we follow his instructions.
        Remember there are all kinds of boxes – big ones, little ones, funny shaped ones, single and multi-dimensional ones.
        All of this, of course, is IMO.

        • I have to ask you more questions because you did not elaborate.
          Which thing(s) do you disagree with what I said or was it all ?
          You say we need to follow his instructions exactly.

          So, if “waters” doesn’t have anything to do with water, then what does it have to do with?

          If, “warm” has nothing to do with temperature then what?

  81. That’s the Big Question. WWWH. a seafood restaurant. That’s were I am back to trying
    to figure that out. Is the S plural like many waters. Have to figure it out first.
    I could dig a hole under the brown trout he is holding in front of the cabin but all I
    would have is a good hole. Heavy chest. makes empty walk. no one around. How did he do it. Started at a waterfall and took it down to his favorite fishing spot. Or is it in the shadow of the Madison… Or should I be back in New Mexico.. No Clue Mark..again..

  82. JDA, CharlieM, Jake…. Can I put in a 2 cent thought here?
    RE: stanza two, and using that popular confluence at Madison junction as WWH

    The water doesn’t halt & the warm doesn’t halt… two NAMES halt.
    But in completing the stanza, IMO, ‘Brown’ is likely a NAME …for poetic balance.

    Peddling my backward bike,… Maybe Fenn did’t couldn’t find a rhyme for “‘Begin where some NAMES halt” and “Put in below the (homey feature)

    • OS2;

      Until Indulgence is found – close no doors – and a rose by any other name is still a rose – JDA

    • I’ll agree the names halt and that’s not what I’m looking for.
      I don’t think it’s a name. I think everything in the poem is about Fenn and his great lovable experiences in that area.

      Does it make sense to have a major clue in his poem that is about someone else other than the man who wrote it about his treasure?

      It could be a name but I like the idea of multiple meanings giving him an out.

    • All, I’m going with Madison Junction for my WWH for a couple of reasons.
      1)The Firehole and the Gibbon are both warm due to the Geyser activity.
      2)There are no geysers below the confluence.
      3)The overall feeling that I have derived from my FF studies just naturally has me in this general area.
      4) This is as simple as I can keep it.

      SJM

      • I like that area as WWWH as well but like his bathing spot better.
        If I could see the clues better from that Junction, I would go with it.
        You have to ask yourself about WWWH and how nearly all of them are N of SF in the Rockies.

        If both rivers are from warm areas then the Madison should be warm as well.

        I can see it being the Junction when the names of the rivers halt and a new name begins but we still have to go back to Fenns statement – nearly all – or something like that. IMO because I forget.

  83. I thought the architect might have liked the asymmetry ……. but might not like being called Rose.

  84. This has probably been discussed previously, but what are thoughts around the Gypsie’s Kiss WWWH solve being related to the New Mexico fishing regulations and areas? It seems like a very clever solve for this particular clue but does require knowledge outside of the book and poem. Thoughts?

    • i concur. I like it, but I think that is specialized knowledge. Personally, I think whatever WWWH is, it has to be recognizable by name on a map. Just as an example Firehole (sounds warm), Yellowstone (warm color), XXX hot springs, or warm springs, it is the title. I don’t think it wouldn’t be common knowledge to know that LLL Lake, or RRR River is warm. For instance, I don’t think knowing the Gibbon River is warm (if it is) would be common knowledge. But that is just my take. I also have a theory, that WWWH is a pun. All of this is IMHO.

      • Hi Yellowdog, I agree about the special knowledge part of this. Are you willing to share your WWWH pun theory? Thanks.

        • I have two, but the one that comes to mind here, is probably nothing new. Just a little different take on it.

          https://dalneitzel.com/tag/old-faithful/

          My thought was what if warm is not necessarily temporal… So playing six degrees of Keven Bacon, i could say:

          warm = comfortable, (in an interview someone asked forest what warm meant to him, and his reply was comfortable)
          comfortable = old faithful (think about an old sweatshirt, or an old recliner, you might call it old faithful– it is comfortable, reliable)

          plus, think of an exercise, you you are trying to give someone directions, you have to start people off with something familiar. Just a thought…

        • A ways back, someone posted an exercise that was a little eye opening. They said, try and give directions to this saloon (in forrest speak, without using any proper names or roads etc) so that anyone could follow it on a map. When I did this exercise, I figured I had to start someplace that would be recognizable to most anyone… And by the time I got to the front door of the place (on google images) the Blaze had to be in your face and undeniable…

  85. What if” wwwh is a “dual answer” because they can be married, and Forrest has been excepting the common answer because no one has truly answered what he wants to hear, and maybe that’s why he said this-

    “What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve.

    “What is or why he chose this place- where warm waters halt? Is this the answer(s) he’s looking for?

    Of course “halt” means to “stop completely” for me, not to transfer from warm to cool or cold by mixing with those waters, or to keep moving at all at that point “halt”, in that clue solve.

    In the beginning of the Chase Forrest said things like, ask a kid, kids may have an advantage in finding the treasure, or something close to that. Could that be because kids don’t over think answers to questions. Most of the time they give a answer of the first thing that pops in their mind. We as adults tend to analyze what has been asked to give, as we see it, the best answer. Do we ever just say answers to questions with the first thing that pops in our mind? Guess we could say yes, but most of the time that gets us in trouble, but really we do try to think of the best answer most of the time.

    Would a kid have the answer to the first clue, or at least a partial correct answer? Huh

    Good luck,
    Bur

    • You pose an interesting question Bur. Maybe I better think on that one instead of just blurting out what comes to mind – haha 🙂 JDA

  86. I don’t have a perfect knowledge of this page, so pardon any ignorance of mine. Has the idea that warm refers to something other than heat or color already been discussed? Warm can refer to welcoming or inviting.

    Several other lines in the poem also seem to suggest that boldness, courageousness, or the like are required. It would seem to fit in with a location where welcome waters halt.

  87. Every time I look at the map I always look at Missoula first and explore out from there for some reason. The name “Missoula” came from the Salish name for the Clark Fork River, “nmesuletkw”, which roughly translates as “place of frozen water”

  88. I have a question about the map and treasure that appear on page 133 in TTOTC but I have gotten only vague answers in other forums. Has anybody noticed that the words New Mexico have been removed from this map? I have the original map and it has the words New Mexico on it where I can see they’ve been removed from the map in the TTOTC. Would you consider this significant or not. I have been wondering for some time why they removed the words New Mexico from this map. Any suggestions on with whom I should discuss are appreciated.

    • I’ve heard about that before. I don’t believe anyone ever showed proof that it is a map of New Mexico. Take a pic of the original map you have and upload it to a site so we can see it. Otherwise, I can’t buy what you’re selling. I’m thinking Fenn wanted a blurry old map to add the mystery.

        • Tell me where to post it and I will. I want you guys to see this and tell me what you think.

          • Michael; you can post your picture on THOR. It takes a day or so to be approved as a member if you aren’t already. Hint of Riches is a good site for posting interesting pictures/links etc and starting a conversation.

        • You can email it to Dal and maybe he will add it to this page but it’s only one pic so I don’t know.
          https://dalneitzel.com/photos-from-searchers/

          If you take a pic of it with your cell phone and go to the Google home page on your computer google.com
          Type in “my pictures” in the Google search and you may be surprised at what you see.

          I would like for everyone here to do that and be shocked at what they got in the cloud as I was way back. You may have to have a Google account (and signed in) and email for this to work.

          Anyway, if your pic uploads automatically you can click on it and share it with everyone.
          Like this…
          https://photos.app.goo.gl/QNEsNVfxtgPhVnfr5
          Let me know if it works and see the chest in this video?

        • Add Chrome to the mix because it doesn’t work with other browsers but that doesn’t mean your pics that you take on your cell are not in the cloud. I think you need to use Google Chrome in order for you to see the pics from your phone.

      • Sorry, you can’t. If you can find a way to paste the picture at a site that has a URL you can link it. Lisa Cesari is the expert at posting links to places that have PIC’s on them. Ask her for details – JDA

        • got my mini max dredge today now its time to find the gold bearing creek only one creek that i know of that’s warm water but the other key elements were missing time to go play in colo be safe out there wait a week or two if the snow melt run off is to fast always remember to be prepared and safe you know its in a safe place right.

  89. Michael;

    You say, “I have the original map and it has the words New Mexico on it where I can see they’ve been removed from the map in the TTOTC. ” What makes you think that you have the original” I think I answered you once before. IF you have the original, or one like Forrest used – I would think that Forrest would have photoshopped “New Mexico” out of the picture in order to NOT say to people that the treasure is in NM. – He wants to keep people guessing. He needed to use a map (for some reason) to put the nuggets – frog and coin on -” A” NM map was handy. He blurred the map in order to NOT make the details important – Just my guess – JDA

  90. Hi JDA,

    I think the map and the treasure that’s laying on it might be significant, like hiding in plain site significant. The oldest and newest items in the box are represented by the bits that are on the map. The map is definitely New Mexico. And some kids I know are really intrigued by the frog.

    • I 100% agree with you Michael. I think that the significance of the “map” is that the top of almost any map – North is to the top. I think that the nuggets represent certain geographical features – The frog might have to do with water, and the coin MAY have something to do with where Indulgence is secreted. I also think that there MAY be a hidden message in the Frog, but am not willing to say what I think that that hidden message is – Sorry – JDA

  91. I also think there is a message in the frog, JDA, but I don’t mind saying that I think it’s pointing to something.

  92. If I am hearing the under tones correctly, the waters are finally warming. up.

  93. It seems to me that it’s enough for a hot spring to surface for warm waters to halt. If halt is an abrupt stop of movement, would it be necessary for hot to abruptly turn cold? Do hot springs tend to surface in more than one spot in an area?

    • Yellowstone National Park may be a great place to start.
      More hot springs flowing into colder or warm waters than anywhere in the world.
      I think it’s necessary.

  94. Lets make it simple. Warm Waters halt, in my books is, were EC Waters was halted from his Entrepreneurship in Yellowstone Lake, and the EC S.S. Waters was scuttled (torched). that would be warm, hahah, also came to a halt in the lake. Read about that and then open the map, and then open the map
    and see. hahahah, LOL

  95. Is it possible or probable that WWWH is not anywhere near the chest or treasure? I know this has been discussed previously but I would like to hear your opinions based on what you know today. Are the clues necessarily in near proximity to each other or could they be spread out over hundreds or thousands of miles? I understand much has been discussed about the first clues being solved and searchers going right past the chest. I am trying to reason out a solve that has geographical exactness to several clues but geographical inconsistencies with being north of Santa Fe, NM, etc. If my solve were correct, I would characterize it as complete misdirection on the part of Forrest Fenn. I don’t have an exact location for the chest, if you’re wondering. I don’t want to make a trip until I either understand the contradictions or disprove the solve, which means I wouldn’t bother making the trip. What are your thoughts?

    • Hi Michael. Any hurry to get it sorted out? I’d have to think on it a bit. Your notion of geographical inconsistencies has me intrigued. I have wondered this myself in the past.
      J

      • Here’s a Q&A email copied and pasted from Forrest Gets Mail on this website:

        I suspect the treasure is buried behind their gravestone. I can furnish you with the reasoning behind this conclusion. I call it common decency, to ask before I dig.

        To which Forrest quickly replied:

        The treasure is hidden north of Santa Fe. Texas is south. Please don’t dig up my parent’s graves. f

        (He also clarified Santa Fe, New Mexico)

    • There are many WWsH in the Rm’s… right?
      Who’s to say they are not all connected, and we need to understand how that works to locate the correct canyon and visa versa…?

      Folks from 2012ish have indicated the first ‘two’ clues. ( yet none seem to know they did ) I find this interesting, as I don’t recall fenn every saying the first clue was ‘solved’ alone, only we that we need to :nail down the first clue.
      The idea still allows fenn to follow his own rule, as to say, the clues should be followed in consecutive order, because the specific WWatersH my be located at a single canyon.
      The question I pose is; can we know of the correct WWsH *location* without the second clue understood as well?
      You may dismiss this thought because of the idea WWsH is specific… sounding like it can be *discovered* where to start with that *alone*… but WhatIF the first two clues is how we “nail” WWsH down?… another words… they are one in the same “location” yet WWsH is the idea of the “big Picture”

      ~Little Indy [ or anyone else it seems ] “…can not get closer than the first two clues…” even though the can find those two clues on a map of the US, RM’s
      Can we truly do the same with just WWsH alone????

      ~ You have to *find out- you have to learn* where the first clue is. They get progressively easier after you *discover where* the first clue is. (A Beautiful World Interview) —-Discover How?
      ~All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. ( Q&A )

      Just a thought…………….

      • *** *** *** ***
        Seeker writ – “Folks from 2012ish have indicated the first ‘two’ clues. (yet none seem to know they did) I find this interesting, as I don’t recall fenn ever saying the first clue was ‘solved’ alone . . . ”
        *** *** *** ***

        Interesting? I can’t recall many (or any?) searchers saying they’d solved WWWH without a canyon down to go with it. Who’d say so, or would put their boots on without it? Or would, as ff says how he knows 2 clues have been solved, “tell [ff] where they’d been” if all they had was the first clue.

        “I’ve got the first clue nailed for certains, but for the life of me I can’t find a canyon to go with it. Can I get some help here?”

        re “first clue alone”

        26 March 2015
        Q – Forrest, you have stated that several searchers correctly identified the first two clues in your poem. Could you tell us how many searchers to your knowledge have correctly identified the first clue correctly? Thanks. ~49 Dollars

        A – “No 49, I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly.” f

        [does “identified” = “solved” to ff here? This is from two years after ff himself publicly identified the first clue *in the poem* as WWWH, so I’d say his “more than several” here solved it, identified the starting point]

        There are many other references to “underestimating the importance of the first clue”, “go back to the first clue”, “if you can’t find the first clue you don’t have anything”, “start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively”, “those who solve the first clue are more than halfway . . . ” etc.

        But in practice nobody solves the first clue without accounting for the second.

        As for “none seem to know they did (solve the first 2 clues)”, I don’t find that surprising either.

        FF often expresses it as ‘they solved the first 2 clues but didn’t know they were so close (200-500 ft)’ instead of ‘they solved the first 2 clues but didn’t know they’d solved the clues.’

        And in any case, why or how could there possibly be something about correctly solving the first 2 clues that somehow assures you you’ve done it? The only positive feedback in this whole enterprise is finding the chest.

        There’s no negative feedback at all, as you could have all nine clues dead to rights, but fondly recall an ex-girlfriend out-of-the-blue right when you’re s’posed to look quickly down, and drift off into a moon-faced reverie instead.

        posted 2 November 2015
        Q – Do [you] expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?

        A – “No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.” ff

        Makes sense to me.

        JAKe

    • I am currently working a solve that has potential. I start at my WWWH, then take it in the canyon down. Not far, but too far to walk. (He says in the preface of TFTW this distance is 10 miles). I drive this distance and then put in below the home of brown. From here, he is said to have walked no more than .75 miles one way. Coming up on the left, is a dried up stream bed. (The end is ever drawing nigh). Turn left and walk up the stream bed. Go exactly 200 or 500 ft. Many have walked down the main trail but passed up the stream bed. Its probably hard to locate.

      I can apply this general template to all my 3 search areas to determine exact locations.

      This is all my opinions of course.

      Stay safe,
      Michael

    • Michael–
      I have different approaches to the poem. One of them does put the locations hundreds of miles apart.

      “Begin it where warm waters halt” could be the end of the “Trail of Tears” that the Indians took when they were relocated forcefully. Are “warm waters” tears?

      This would put our starting point near Tulsa Oklahoma, where this historic trail comes to and end, or “halts”.

      The poem then leads us west and then north to the Rockies. If the poem is a map within a map that it could be one of the stanzas takes this loo large area and then re-focuses on a smaller section of this large map. Almost like “Windows” does— the focus becomes smaller and smaller until we are literally 200-500 feet from the treasure.

      Does each stanza somehow focus in a little further than the prior stanza? And what if the stanzas actually need to be re-arranged first? No words changed, just stanzas or sentences in stanzas moved into different positions like the toggles in a lock?

      The poem still intrigues me after almost 3 years now. It truly is an amazing treasure hunt to say the least.

  96. *** *** *** ***
    Mich’ Moreland wondered – “Are the clues necessarily in near proximity to each other or could they be spread out over hundreds or thousands of miles?”
    *** *** *** ***

    I doubt there’s more than 10 ground-travel-miles between the first location and the end. And anymore I always play with an even smaller “map” area in mind and under foot.

    The first solution I actually walked (more than once) was based on the poem describing a river trip that accurately described a way to get to the chest, but actually involved both the hider (ff) and the seeker getting to the same place a different way, all on dry land by wheel and boot.

    The clues laid out, stretch by stretch, a map of a route rafting down a particular river, then beaching the raft and hiking on foot a mile or so up a particular tributary creek (that you couldn’t “paddle up”). A long trip that would actually take several days by raft.

    The way to actually get there (both to hide and to retrieve the McGuffin) was to drive to the top of that tributary creek (in Utah) and hike a little way down it into Colorado, to the point where you’d meet the hypothetical rafter hiking up the creek. Sneaky!

    Then came ff comments about “The clues should be followed in order . . . there’s no other way to my knowlege” and “I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest.”

    Followed for the hat trick by “Once you hid the treasure, did you take the exact same route in reverse to return to your car?” – “Yes I did, it was the most direct route.” f

    Add ff’s repeated admonitions (repeated more and more frequently over time) that a searcher has to begin at the first clue, has to have Where Warm Waters Halt.

    So Difficulty 1 – if, say, the Great Divide Basin/Red Desert is your WWWH, but you’re gonna search 100 miles away, why do you *have* to start (either physically or even just theoretically or cartographically) at the Great Divide Basin?

    Then add the relationship between ‘the first 2 clues’ and ‘200-500 ft’ in numerous comments going all the way back to early 2013, if not earlier. Even if those ‘searchers’ themselves were a bit of hyperbolic “yes you can!” encouragement to the field, I think that the relationship described between first clues and distance would still have to be accurate.

    So. People can, and have, wiggled in and out, around and between those points that define the size of my field(s) of play, but those are my thoughts, as requested. And that’s the size field I’ve hunted since the winter of ’16/17′ (I think).

    I haven’t seen many (that I can recall) that posit a distance of hundreds (let alone a thousand) of miles; my response to the idea is simply that “I don’t see how.”

    Unless you can share something of *how* it might work, I can’t really articulate beyond that.

    JAKe

    • Hi Jake, when I stepped back and started to look at larger areas and bigger maps, I discovered two patterns that followed the clues very closely. They both start at the same WWWH but in two different states. The second solve, which I am currently trying to disprove, closely matches the poem and leads to a very unexpected area. It’s all very confusing right now because it seems very contradictory to almost everything that has been previously discussed.

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