The Blaze…Part Seven

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This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the conversation please go to the newest Blaze page.

This is the place to discuss the the blaze. What do you think it is? Is it temporary or permanent? Will it be around for a thousand years or doesn’t it matter? Is it easy to spot or difficult? Does the poem tell us what the blaze looks like or what it is?

Nick Lazaredes of SBS-TV’s Dateline in Australia interviewed Forrest in the spring of 2014. Here is Forrest explaining the BLAZE.
https://dalneitzel.com/video/audio/blaze.mp3

613 thoughts on “The Blaze…Part Seven

  1. My end is not only odd, but white….like the blaze may be.

    But no searcher’s quest has ever been ceased upon viewing it, that’s for sure.

  2. The Book of Blazes has provided us with a few ideas.
    There are a few more that I have seen that I have mentioned in the past.
    I am still interested in the one that I posted in the Book of Blazes. But I am still open to others. Maybe lichen…

    • Michael, I have always enjoyed your comments! I don’t know why I find you so laidback and a calmness about you?
      Mr. Fenn, did give a huge clue…about the blaze being a physical thing, I thought the reporter was asleep personally!
      Go Mr. Fenn and thank you Dal for your work! I do enjoy it , I can only cover so much territory .❤️

    • Michael H., You said “Maybe lichen…” I went down that path a couple season’s ago, and I looked in a location with that in mind. I concluded the bioluminescence/foxfire idea probably wouldn’t stand the test of time. Besides, traipsing around in the woods at night is not a very bright idea. imo

      • Afana, I agree – searching at night is dangerous and borderline insane. There are too many things that can happen at night in the Rockys.

    • You definitely have imagination. But I don’t think lichen is an important
      part of the blaze in the poem. IMO.

  3. Ahhh the blaze,
    ( moment to gather my thoughts.) As I see it in my mind which some accuse me of having lost.)
    The blaze is of decent size and a short distance from the hiding spot.
    Possibly a rock formation pointing toward the chest.

      • That’s not what the poem says. If you mess with it, you won’t
        find the TC. All IMO.

      • Laurie,
        It says to “look QUICKLY down”….not directly down. Not trying to be nit-picky but we’re not supposed to mess with the poem. Enjoy the Chase!

        Deano Bravo

  4. I’ve had many different ideas of what the blaze was in my searches throughout the years and none has panned out. This may be one of the clues that it takes botg to understand. Can it be seen from goggle earth or sattilite views? Many say yes. I’m at the point where I don’t think so, unless you can see it and not understand that the image is the blaze. Here’s the thing, I now believe the blaze could be something “whitish”. I know the discussions have gone round and round on this subject but this is what I believe Forrest meant for the word blaze now. He might even told us, way in the past, just what it might be in a ATF comment.

    To me the “blaze” and “heavy loads” are the two hardest clues that botg are needed to understand their solve. The rest are pretty straight forward after you understand what wwwh is, and why Forrest chose that one (Hint in TTOTC book), from what I came across.

    The season is starting for those in the south Rockies and moving up as we speak.

    So good luck out there, have fun and be safe.

    Bur

    • Bur – Thank you for your response on the previous blaze thread, which is closed to comments now. Look again at the marks running down the center of Forrest’s face, when you expand.that pic.

      https://dalneitzel.com/2018/10/07/the-blaze-6/#comment-757119

      The leading character on my ridgeline Cartouche blaze is a Star; and Forrest was a leading Airman in the Airforce. A “whitish” star blaze is the Airforce symbol. The Cartouche blaze reads:

      Star Bird F F E

      I have wondered if chalk was applied to those barren areas, which look about the same as in the background of that pic of Forrest on Lightning with his white blaze in the Looking for Lewis and Clark story in TTOTC.

      I have always thought the last E in my Cartouche blaze is a nod to Eric Sloane.

      • Bur – That final E is left justified, which some say could correspond to drawing nye (nigh) in the Poem, especially if a horse is involved:

        Could it be??

        NYE = New York Eric?

        Everard Hinrichs???

        Who studied painting at the Hudson River School in New York?

        The end is EVER drawing nigh???

        What say you, Shakespeare???

      • Bur – In Summary (a nod to when I think Forrest made my Cartouche blaze ‘in Summer’, and to Mr. Shakespeare’s contemporary, William Sommers, the famous Court Fool of QE1 and her father the King, Henry VIII);

        Star Bird F F E

        Could be an epitaph and a blaze all in one. My translation is:

        Stellar Airforce Airman Forrest.Fenn For-Ever!

        But I have always been The Fool on The Chase. Ask the poet, William Butler Yeats. He’ll tell you! He wrote a great play with that character in it.

      • Hey Lisa,

        So your thinking the white marks on Forrest face is a star pattern in chalk? To me it looks like sunlight coming through the trees on his face. But can be wrong.

        Bur

        • Bur – Look closer. Anyone who uses Photoshop would recognize the several marks in a vertical line in question as an aberration. And they were not there the previous time I went to Forrest’s blog a day or two before. I used his blog as my resource for stories about The Chase on his blog page there, since I didn’t have TTOTC for reference.

          • Lisa,

            I can see some of what you said, but not a photoshop wizard. I too used Forrest blog and other things posted on his website for some good info. As you know there was other place we posted ithat had a lot of people with good ideas too.

            The blaze has me wondering. I know I will be busy for a little while checking the two blazes I think at my search area but if they don’t pan out I will for sure try to see if there is something else that stands out.

            I know your area and love that region but my search is over up there. I hope I’m wrong for your sake but right for mine.

            Good luck,
            Bur

    • WWWH is Warm Springs Station. Heavy loads and water high is Atlantic City. He said the spot was “difficult to find but not impossible”. Please look up the word “difficult”. Nothing about this puzzle is straight forward in the way you are choosing those words. An antonym of difficult is straightforward. It means there is a lot of work even when you are on the right path. And there is a lot of work.

      The blaze can be solved from your chair and is visible with GE/satellite views. Like everything else he does, he hints about it everywhere. Here are several:

      – the horse’s blaze and other stuff
      – a yo-yo (sound out those letters; does your mind go anywhere?) as an allusion to a helicopter hoist, which is an allusion to the blaze
      – jade and a Lorraine cross
      – guts

      A buttload is 126 gallons of wine, soda speak. It is also a two-wheeled handcart. Too bad he didn’t think of this term and use it in his book or posts. It would have made me “en coin” because that’s just my level of maturity.

          • No. I don’t know your reference of “I” to “Miss Ford”, although Miss Ford is indirectly related to the blaze.

            The reference to jade is from the TTOTC book, “ancient Chinese human faces carved from jade”. You really need the book. See the Chinese Oracle bone script symbol for “jade” and compare it to the Lorraine cross mentioned in TFTW. These are directly related to the blaze.

          • E.C. Waters – Thank you for that info. That Olmec Jadeite Mask is from Forrest’s story post about his found objects and collections right here on Dal’s blog. Where I seem to be able to find just about everything Forrest wrote or placed in his three treasure related books. Thanks, Dal!

    • Hi Bur,
      what is about the hoB? Forrest said that hoB is only one (he added “in the poem” but most likely in entire Rockies). And we know that he also said that the knowing what is hoB will lead you directly to the chest.
      Andy

      • I might imagine HOB might provide a more direct tack as the crow flies to a later part of the route if HOB could be certainly determined prior to going through the clues that immediately follow. Just my observation.

      • Mr Tall,
        Near the top of this page there is a audio link that Dal provided “Here is Forrest explaining the BLAZE.”
        If you listen to this audio, you will know what Amy has commented about.
        It’s recommended.

  5. In one of my BOTG searches I came upon what could be interpreted as a blaze overhead. I looked around quickly and didn’t see the chest. The blaze that I saw was not what I had expected or was looking for. It was an object that could easily be there for a thousand years if no one destroys it.. In reflecting about it much later, i realized that i may have not examined the area as carefully as I might have,.given more thought to analyzing how Fenn would hidden the chest.

    There are factors that would have impacted how Fenn would have hidden the chest given a couple of sound assumptions. First, the chest is in a mountainous region. Second, the area would be subject to various types of wild animals that naturally inhabit the area. Foremost of these would be large curious bears. Fenn more than most would have been aware of this. In one of my BOTG searches, I ran across a fresh bear kill.(tarry scant). A bear could easily upend the chest with one swipe and possibly dislodge it’s contents if the chest was left out in the open. I seem to recall that Fenn said the chest was not locked. The photos of the chest that I have seen show the chest with a latch that might be easily lifted to open the chest. Fenn would have considered all of these factors.

    Another factor is the logical assumption that if the chest was out in the open, snow would have buried the chest. As temperatures would rise, the snow would melt and water would naturally wick through the small openings of the chest’s lid and over the years, possibly filling the chest with moisture. We know that moisture will not effect gold, but the wooden interior side inserts would certainly rot.

    Additionally, a tree or some large debris could fall on the chest and possibly crush the chest, spilling its contents. Anyway, this thought process leads me to conclude that the chest is NOT in the open but is carefully secured in a location to prevent undesirable events and circumstaces that would be detrimental to the chest and it’s contents.

    One other thought to consider is the first line in the poem. It says, “As I have gone IN there” . Fenn has said that every word is important. Fenn could just as easily said “UP there”, or “OVER there”, or “DOWN there”, or just omitted the word “IN”. There is no doubt in my mind that the chest is hidden in a location that requires the searcher to go “IN” and remove something that prevents the chest from being disturbed or subjected in a negative manner.. I live far away from my solve and often reconsider (or not) going back to further search the area. As age and arthritis advance, my decision cannot be put off too much longer, but the fire still burns.

    • Ronald Conley – Awesome post! Have you thought about how trappers like Osborne Russell handled burying their profits, ie. Beaver furs, and tools? Google ‘fur trappers cache’.

      • Robert Conley – My hidey spot, which one could *look quickly down” to from my Airforce star.blaze character, has a log laying on a perfect diagonal across a perfectly square clearing “in the wood”; the surrounding forest of Lodgepole pines and Spruces. It looks like an Egyptian Pyramid to me from Google Earth’s satellite view.

        This painting by an artist Forrest has mentioned, Gilbert Gaul, features such a fallen log. And a fallen boy. And a horse. “Taps’:

        https://fineartamerica.com/featured/gilbert-gaul-taps-granger.html

        I think having such.a log across the hidey spot would help to keep the elements out and the claws of Grizzes from removing the flat stone I think covers the cache.

    • The poem does not say “As I have gone IN there”. If you truly believe that every word is important, you should be careful with them, hmm?

      I also tink that the pictures (at the top of various pages of this blog)
      are important. They hint at the location of the hidey place.
      As always, IMO.

      • *** *** *** ***
        “I also think that the pictures (at the top of various pages of this blog) . . . . hint at the location of the hidey place.”
        *** *** *** ***

        Honest questions, Tall A:

        Why would you think that?

        How would they do that?

        What do you mean by “hint at”?

        Jake

      • Tall Andrew – Back when I joined The Chase, I thought that, also, about the pictures. But later, Dal credited the awesome pics to Goofy, a searcher who used to manage this blog. They chose them.

        • I don’t doubt that Goofy — and possibly other person(s) — chose the “awesome pics”. But I suspect that FF gave some guidance about the subject(s) of the pic(s), as a bit of hinting/teasing. This may be more understandable/believable after the solve has been explained. Please be patient about that. Dealing with a goodly monetary sum suggests goodly care in management of said sum.

          As always, IMO.

          • Tall Andrew,

            A lot of folks thought the same about the pics at the top of all the threads. Dal and Goofy{oldguy} have explained they were donated by Goofy. fenn had no input.
            As well as, a lot of the SB pic where chosen by Dal, or he would normally tell the reader that fenn sent pictures for certain SBs.
            This is Dal’s blog he set up for folks to chat about the chase, and Dal’s been pretty good about letting the readers know what fenn has sent vs. his own choices / designs for his blog.

            They are great pics though, right?
            Sometimes I would click on them just to watch them change to other pic… which kinda tells ya that the pics are not set up for any specific thread or for any reason other than decorative, to enhance the site’s looks.

  6. The blaze is a marker! It will be obvious and I feel I will see it in the area I believe the treasure is located! I’m not telling where I think I’ll find it this summer

  7. Morning all,
    Keeping in mind Forrest stated: The chest is not associated with a structure.
    This lends itself to the thought that all of the things described in the poem are natural with the exception of WWWH and the HOB. These I believe are manmade. Once one has correctly identified these two places it is time for bog. This is when imagination comes into play.
    I have a decent idea of what the blaze is. My problem atm is getting the right WWWH and HOB. The blaze is as simple as looking at it.

    • High Desert Drifter,

      How did you come up with what you think the blaze is? Especially if you haven’t gotten any other clue solved. Do you think Forrest has said what it is? I believe he has back in the early part of the chase.

      Bur

      • Hi Bur;

        Is this the quote that you are referencing?

        “The blaze is a physical thing. It’s not theoretical.
        Boy did I give you a big clue (Forrest chuckles after
        making the statement). That’s not a clue. It doesn’t
        take a scientist to figure out a blaze is something you
        can look at … A horse has a blaze on its forehead here
        … ah, ah, there are rocks that have a white face that
        could be a blaze… ” f JDA

        • JDA,

          Nice to see your comment.

          No that’s not the one. If I say what I think is the comment it will giveaway a hint to my search area. I need to be careful for right now especially if a searcher lives close, and I know there a few that do. I want to be there first in the next month. Lol

          Sorry for not clarifying the comment.

          Bur

          • Thank you JDA,
            you hit the nail on the head. Also, keep in mind that Forrest wanted the chase to last for a long time. The hints Forrest has given us are very subtle. In my mind, I see pictures of natural things. These things will last for hundreds of years/ Example: Old Spanish trail markers can still be found today in Az, N.M, etc.

    • What is the exact quote by FF? Does he use the word “chest” “treasure chest” or another word or phrase? The distinction may be important.

      • “I said on the Today show that the treasure is not associated with any structure. Some people say I have a desire to mislead. That is not true. There are no notes to be found or safety deposit boxes to be searched. The clues can lead you to the treasure, and it will be there waiting when you arrive.”

          • Finder – Ok. How about, then, if I found a definition for “bold treasures” being ‘found objects’? Like those contained in Forrest’s “treasure chest” he mentioned in that NPR interview??

            As I have gone alone in there,
            And with my treasures bold.

          • Finder – This just in from Forrest:

            “The virtue lies in the struggle, not in the prize.”
            Richard Monckton Milnes

            The treasure chest is still out there waiting to be found. It is not easy to
            find, but the fortunate bi-products of searching seem to come from all
            directions. f

            Timely, Dal. Thanks!

          • LIsa:
            Don’t you wonder how Forrest knows the treasure is not found yet? I don’t. Multiple levels of meaning with words and phrases such as chest and treasures bold, but a real simple solution. Multiple byproducts of the Chase in my life as I have been imbued with a sense of adventure and emboldened with confidence to solve crises for several desperate situations.
            Yours truly,
            Finder

          • Finder – Personally, I think Forrest has My Grizz.on his payroll. Jars of honey buried all around my search area. Just like the guys Jesse James had guarding his treasure. Have you seen his blaze, btw?

            And remote wildlife cameras on trees in the forest. Dal even posted a picture of one a little ways out, on his story post about going out Cabin Creek with that Australian film crew.

            It is beautiful to hear stories of how you and so many others have gained knowledge, compassion, strength and confidence on The Chase. Positive fallout from all those hours spent being a Deep Thinking and Truly Seeking treasure hunter. Who knew?

    • Good luck. If y’all don’t have WWWH and hoB, y’all are just guessing at
      what the blaze is. As always, IMO.

  8. The blaze is ubiquitous, it is the area around the blaze that is important. Should I just give my answer? What is a synonym for wise?

      • doug – Did I mention that I have a series of blazes, beginning with an X on the map formed by the rivers that meet at Three Forks,.MT and ending with my ridgeline blaze on the face above my hidey spot? Their locations on a map could be considered to be forming the concentric rings of a target; one like I have envisioned being on the wall of the sick little boy, who shoots darts from his bed, in “A Big Ball of String”:

        https://images.app.goo.gl/wiv45KGoyRg2Jdnq8

        Check out the red military jeep with the star on it and the bike on front of it. I sent a used copy to Forrest. It showed up at a friend’s bookstore here in town. Coincidentally, or not, she grew up working Summers in West Yellowstone. And her sister is currently the manager of West Yellowstone Airport.

    • Finder,
      “You said, “Poem does not say “treasure chest” IMO. Words matter.”

      In the poem the words, treasure, chest, trove and gold are one in the same, including the name Indulgence. When folks or Forrest speak of the treasure or with the combination of the words “treasure chest” they are talking about the treasure.

      Some have thought the chest and the gold are separate things, which they are not separate.

      Back to the Blaze, it is not upright and does not point in any direction. IMO and is not easy to remove and solid.

      Just Say’n

      • Treasure chest and chest equal treasure. Chest by itself probably not. Concur that Blaze probably fixed, not easy to remove, but not so sure you can call it “solid”

      • Your posting is confusing:

        (talking about the Blaze) “it . . . and is not easy to remove and
        solid.”

        Does this mean that the “Blaze” is not BOTH easy to remove
        and solid? If so, this could mean that the “Blaze” could be easy to remove but not solid,
        or it could be difficult to remove while remaining solid,
        or it could be difficult to remove while remaining non-solid.

        Believe it or not, I try to help searchers understand your postings (if/when I can).

        As always, IMO.

  9. We are having to start over on our “blaze” we thought it was a mountain top/peak that as you walked up your canyon boom the peak would come into view. then Mr. Fenn said blaze cannot be seen on Google Earth.

    • wildbirder – Here are s few peaks surrounding my search area. I have wondered how many of these possible blazes Forrest could see from Lightning the horse and from the top of my ridgeline face blaze, if he was there:

      White Peak, Red Streak Peak, Sage Peak, Pyramid Peak, Echo Peak.

      The last one is for the story of Echo and Narcissus, because of the Blue Spruce, the mountain Springs and the possible mirror ponds I see on Google Earth. Forrest wrote that story about mirrors. And a mountain Spring runs down right near my hidey spot. Did Osborne Russell and his party camp there, to be able to see the Blackfeet Indians coming? Did Forrest camp there, so he could fish the circular creek with the island in the middle down below the next morning? That area looks like a Circumpunct to me, the symbol for GOLD, or maybe a 360 degree Rainbow blaze.

      I did see teepee rings at Upper Teepee Basin, below Red Streak Peak, on Google Earth. They were just over the ridge, not too far from Cabin Creek Cabin. A trail leads down into that basin.

  10. I have this fantasy that the blaze is a rainbow created by a waterfall near where the treasure is to be found, so that once the rainbow appears from the particles of water from the waterfall, the rainbow itself marks the spot. It would be a wonderful place to put the treasure. But, of course, the real treasure is that natural phenomenon that creates the rainbow.

    • I do imagine that if you seek such a blaze and seek it often, you will experience what f intended for all searchers.

  11. I think that when the sun rises at sunrise and is projected onto the earth, a certain projection is created, blaze. You will not see such a phenomenon on the map, only in real time.

    • Hey-O John –

      The spot on your horizon where the sun rises or sets changes every day (quite quickly around an equinox, very slowly around a solstice).

      And so will any effects of the projection of its rays (such as casting shadows, or hitting a reflective surface).

      So, to marrying your clues to fixed places on the map, you’d have to add a shotgun wedding to a variable, limited-time “solar window”.

      Not saying it’s impossible, but –

      Difficult for the chase-master to pack such additional precision into the 24 available lines of the poem, difficult for the chaser to precisely retrieve it back out.

      I don’t think Hank done it that way.

      Jake

      • And no one says that the riddle should be easy, where it is cold at the foot of the mountains there are warm days for several months and the projection of the sun does not deviate much.

  12. Perhaps the blaze is in the TOTC… We just need to identify it before we put botg.
    IMO of course. .

    • Fully agreed from my side. Solve the whole thing before botg. Everything needed is in the book, except one’s ability to match map places with what is hinted.

    • As one who appreciates the wilderness and its preservation…

      yes…please delay your infractions until you are absolutely sure of the blaze before entering. Maybe best that you never come to a proper identification.

  13. I remember some time back, ff was asked by someone if the the blaze was an actual object, to which ff answered “In A word, Yes”..

    Does anyone else see that as an awful strange way to answer a yes-no question?

    My take on that answer is, It’s a little ff riddle that the Blaze is a word that starts with the letter “A”

  14. Hi Floyd,
    What about this…
    What’s in a word?…letters
    It could be something shaped like a letter, perhaps a “W”….

  15. In one of my several solves i have ready to go, my blaze is a rock. Well, at least I think it is a rock – it could be an outcropping or a volcanic leftover or such. On GE I have looked at it. But am having trouble finding, what comes after like any cold or wood or anything. Anyone else have a rock as a blaze or such troubles.

    On some days I feel at the top of my game. On others, not so much. This blaze is killing me today.

    • I found a mark on a rock that is dark brown and rectangle like (a chest?)…resembles a petroglyph…unnaturally placed in a tomb like “cave” as soon as you enter, head level. Another interesting point is the rectangle had an arrow/roof indented in the rock (likely natural) to the right of the marking. Potential “Blaze” or “home of brown”? Also interesting was a nest of a Wood Rat in this “cave”. Had to be sort of brave to enter.

      I may have stumbled upon the haystack, less than a one square mile area…many clues leading to it but one major clue that I have yet to see anyone mention, probably because it could potentially be a dead giveaway to narrow down the search area to less than a square mile. I will be headed back to the area once it stops raining out here as it is near impossible to get to the spot when wet without an off-road vehicle.

      I almost gave up when I first searched an area that the poem led me to. After I looked in the last suspected hole, I decided to call it quits and snap a few photos. The last photo I took I saw a major clue that made me realize that I was in the right spot and then I found the mark on the rock. There was a blaze that got me to my search area followed by a blaze to get me to another more narrowed down blaze that may be pointing to the treasure… did Fenn have more than one “blaze”? Is that why his answer is so “open”?

      We can look at sat imagery, photos, poems and maps all day long, but it all looks different when you’re actually there. It also depends on your state of mind. I discovered more potential clues when I left the area that may lead to potential exact spots of the chest. I am missing the very last piece of the puzzle which I hope to solve or at least verify I’m wrong the next time I go out. Guess what I’m saying is, don’t consider a search a failure or get you down if you don’t find the chest, but it is an opportunity to look at the whole puzzle at a different angle. Just be sure to take photos of your search areas to look at later…360 cameras are nice for this as well.

      Whether I find it or not this next trip, I’ll post my solve as it will be my last attempt.

      Cheers.

      • Vic,

        IMO you might be on the wrong road. Remember Forrest drove a sedan when he hid the chest. To me if the road is not a maintained road or a asphalt one he most likely didn’t take it. Remember he was 79-80 and most likely would not want to get stuck and have someone come and get him, or to know where he had been, just saying. Now if you could walk about a mile to your search spot from a parking area then it could be considered.
        I think Forrest parking spot was asphalt or not but a few feet from it, like a pull off.

        Watch out for caves. I crawled in one in my early years of the chase and thank goodness I didn’t run into some critter, because it would not have been fun to have to back out of that place quickly.

        Good luck,
        Bur

    • Joe,

      I had a layout of boulders that looked like the gold nugget layout with the frog and the coin in TTOTC book, in my search area, and thought it could be the blaze. It was on the left side of my npuyc creek that I followed. To me the layout in the book with the frog it represented water (my creek), and it’s nose pointed in between the two bigger nuggets and the gold coin (treasure chest) was under them. I search between them and there was a big enough space for a person to craw up in. My pinpoint metal detector went off a couple times but under the leaves and branch debris was a old rusted cast iron frying pan and a old metal top to a surveying rod and a few bones. But no treasure chest.
      This trip I’m going back down to water high to search instead of following the creek up. Think this was my mistake. So ideas of blazes can be tricky, especially if seen from a sattilite view.

      Good luck,
      Bur

      • Sure sounds interesting Bur. I guess one would have to be at your search area to figure it out completely. I think I see what you are saying, but am not 100% sure. Good luck when you go out in a week or so – JDA

        • I think that starting at the Water High spot is a good idea – It is with my solve anyway – JDA

    • Sorry to learn that. I would never wish an uncomfortable “gut feeling” on anyone.

  16. I’ve been thinking about SB 107… discussed further up this thread Suppose the simple message is to ‘reorganize the given numbers” ?

    1st pic… tangled wires, & ‘get gas ‘
    2nd pic … re-organized silverware in 5 bins
    3rd pic … street address & a five …

    The street address is 1921 , the phone pad GAS is 427.

    All the other stuff is yarn & diversion.

    Now if 7 of the numerals do represent a coordinate, the upside down 5 is tricky… I think it is not there as a numerical value in the coord sequence, but to affirm the significance of the 5 placement bins for the utensils. … 2 places for forks (or degrees), 2 places for spoons (or minutes), and a single bigger bin for knives (or all those tiny cut-up little seconds nobody pays attention to).

    If you think the 7 numbers may be a coordinate… The only relevant longitudes start with a 3 or a 4…. and there is no 3 among the 7 numbers. The only relevant 2nd number from the group could be a 1, 2, or a 7…. But my money is on the 7 numbers being a phone number & Fenn playing a Gotcha! joke on us to test our analytical skills. When organized correctly, and called, there will be a ring in the Fenn house, or maybe at the Santa Fe MVD.

    Have fun… The Santa Fe area code is 505.

    • OS2,
      “Something” in all you said can help with the “big picture”, pretty sure Forrest would agree. Wish I could say more.

      Good luck,
      Bur

      • Good morning Bur…. are you a numbers guy, working on Lat & Long hints? That seems to be so natural, a given in this this chase. But because it is… I suspect FF may be using it to flirt with those chasers, but he’s not gonna take any of them to the dance. But flirting is fun anyhow. Good luck.

        • OS2,
          Not a numbers guy, but that scrapbook IMO has something that hints to the big picture and you touched on the outer fringe of it.

          Thanks for the reply back.
          Bur

    • Hello OS2. Your idea about organization may be true. Another scrapbook that comes to mind about organization/compartments/order is the one about his slippers. He mentions compartments for his toes (paraphrasing). Another that just came to mind is about his bathroom and the items on the countertop being organized. Which brings us to the poem being a map.

      • Thanks Pdenver, what are those 2 SB numbers, Ill look at them again and maybe something cosy will register. And Thank you for your link to Osbourns Journal…. nothing has ever made me more appreciative of literary organization, == Indexes, chaptrs, ltitles, sub titles, paragraphs, footnotes, etc.

          • Hi Pdenver… I looked at those two SBs… sweet musings in #130 about old friends and imposters. Nothing chase related IMO. What do you think?

            As for 99.5… Remote, but has possibilities,… He doesn’t like clutter, but all those mirrors multiply clutter. Good thing he has an escape window.

            Takes me back to the Preface and “But she didn’t have to stand there & see”…. in that that lovely shower with the skylight ‘flat above’ (a mesa? Big Sky?) and marble eyes. See my age? Not at night. And now, a recent inquiry from a blind man? So…… remote but has possibilities. What do you think?

            (I wish I wasn’t a dot…………. addict…… but its expresses tone easier than waiting for the right words or punctuation to shoot out of my finger tips)

  17. Mr. LaFayette: usually your posts confuse me but this one was different. A blind man sees by “touch.” Kinda like “let your fingers do the walking” ? Got me thinking …….

  18. A question for FF should be “Can you see the blaze year round or is it seasonal”?
    The blaze could be the blooming of flowers. FF told a searcher to wait until summer……..not until spring or fall. This seems to me to be odd. Some people have walked right past the TC and did not know it. Maybe they were there too soon and the flowers had not bloomed yet. Most searchers are looking for all kinds of blazes and would be keen to see one when out in the forest because it would be something that stands out. So if the searchers were out too early, then the blaze (flowers blooming) would not have been apparent.
    As always, this is IMO.

    • Welcome everybody to the lisa cesari show. Hold on to your hats, its quite the rollercoaster.
      I only have one request, well only one that i am comfortable asking here:
      Could we please not reply to our own replys? Youve got the margins pushed so tightly together on a mobile device there is only one character per line.
      Woah and wow.
      Just curious have you ever considered hosting your very own blog site? Read into that what you may.

      • She means well and is a good egg.
        I just don’t like repeating the same thing over and over again in a short period of time and you never get a chance to reply to the original reply because it’s usually replied to several times by her so you really don’t know what to say at that point.
        I suggest she stay away from caffeine and remember what you commented on so you don’t keep skipping the record.

    • I’ll bet you can see the blaze in any time of the year provided there is light and you may have to shovel some snow away from it in those colder months.
      I’ll search in summer or early to mid fall.

      • Jake,
        I hope you are right. We’ve been out to NM multiple times in the Spring and I would hate to think we missed the blaze by being too early.
        Like you, we will search in the summer this next trip.
        Good luck, stay safe.

        • Thanks Tarheel Searcher, Same to you.
          Don’t get me wrong, If i lived close or in NM, CO, WY or MT, I would sneak in a short spring or winter trip or few as long as there was little snow and/or runoff.

  19. Time to provide some food for thought.
    Blaze: illumination, enlightenment.
    Roll that around in your noggin.

  20. I think the blaze is a red horses face drawn on a rock. However it is not the last clue, it cant be because there is a ‘but’ to contend with.
    If you are standing at the artists point of view in the real geography (the sight that matches the painting) you will see the marvel gaze.
    Its too cool.

  21. On May 6, 2019 at 12:21pm, I posted a version of the Poem on the O&E thread, in which I inserted my S blaze from my Baker’S Hole solve into various stanzas. I wrote:

    If you’ve been wiSe and found the blaze (yes, in a word, right there, Forrest!)

    And in another post, I examined that capital S in ‘wiSe’, noting it could be the “tight focus on a word that is key”. Because it looks magnified in caps. And because Google Earth doesn’t go down far enough to see my hidey spot, ‘dead center’ of my backwards bike S, at Baker’S hole, on my Double Omega Island.

    Then I thought more about these two quotes from Forrest on Dal’s great Cheat Sheet:

    ♦ Q: Is the Blaze one single object? “In a word – Yes”
    ♦ Q: I would like to know if the blaze can be found during the day without a flashlight. “I would say yes.f”

    YeS! The blaze is RIGHT THERE! In that word. And you pointed right to that “yes” word twice.

    Now I get “IT”, Forrest. Giggles.

    All IMO.

    • BadgeR, Dave B. and Jake –

      Ssssssssssssss……

      Shakespeare, Sloane, Simpson, Shiloh, Sharp, Salinger, Superman, Sherlock, Stephenson, Silver (Long John, the Horse, Star), Skippy, Somers, Sommers, Supersabre, Sabertooth, Stagecoach, Sacagawea, Shoshone, Sheepeaters, Stars & Stripes, Slough, Secret, Scant, So, See, Smile, Smarter (Every Day), Steps, Slide…

      Did I forget an important S word?

      Just trying to figure out what my backwards bike S blaze might signify. Could it be an S at the end of a name or word instead? Like Brown’S Camp or Baker’S Hole?

      Hmmmm…

  22. Is it feasible to think that the “blaze” is identified in the previous stanzas of the poem and is not something that you have to locate by going BOTG?? That would mean one is aware of what the blaze is before even leaving home. Just a thought.

    • wwwamericana – Yes. That is all true for my solve at Baker’S Hole. The final blaze was on a Ponderosa pine tree, which I could not see until I did BOTG, though. But that ‘ground zero’ or ‘bullseye’ blaze, of my ‘target’ of concentric blazes, was just that 12′ final confirmation for me.

      And that Brown Buffalo dung pile nearby made me think of King Midas and the Minotaur, and Theseus and Ariadne, and her Big Ball of String. And then, of Icarus falling to Earth, when he got too close to the Sun, and his waxed wings melted. I was A-Maze-d, truly.

      And then I thought of Forrest falling to Earth, after ejecting from his F 100-D in Vietnam. And how much my hide-y spot vicinity looked like the pic drawn by J.F. on page 99 of TTOTC. That one Forrest recently added the two X’s to. Including a high bluff behind, where the 1988 YNP fire came to a ‘halt’ on my topo map view. That reminded me of the bluff Forrest wrote about being on, after parachuting down to Earth in Vietnam. He had to move away from there, so the Candy Ann Green Giant helicopter could drop the cable to rescue him. A helicopter could do that at my hide-y spot, for sure. There is, conveniently, a helipad across the highway, next to the runway at KWYS. And there is a Fire Management HQ next to it.

      But this is all IMO. My treasure is still deep down a mole hole. For now.

  23. I have spent several trips over the past three years looking for a blaze with no success, so I decided to look to the poem again, this time with the intent to draw an ‘X’ on my map. I just finished this idea and am astonished by the result. I began by marrying each of the clues to locations on a map and tried to make my ‘X’ to no avail. I was about to abandon this idea when I thought of something Mr. Fenn said. I don’t remember the exact quote, but the gist was to follow the poem precisely in order to find the chest, so I went with that idea. I abandoned all of my previous ideas and just drew lines on a map at the direction of the poem using the geographical locations I had come up with based on the clues. I am still staring down with marvel gaze at what was drawn on my page…perhaps I should tarry scant at this point. I used no external information whatsoever with the exception of one small nudge in a certain direction from TTOTC. With just the poem, a map, and a little imagination I drew a very well-known symbol on my map, one that will lead to within several steps of the chest (if I crossed all of the lines in the right place; at least in theory). After that, I did use the internet to learn the symbol I drew has a very deep meaning, but in a word, it represents light. I started thinking about TTOTC again as well as the poem itself in a new way and found several very subtle hints that this may actually be correct. I am sure many of us have been here before, but this is as excited and confident as I have been yet; I guess we will see… Whether or not I’m on to something, I look forward to sharing more about it, I think it is a fun way to look at the puzzle. If it is right, I have a renewed appreciation for Mr. Fenn’s wisdom and what he has done for all of us. I am looking forward to heading back out soon to see the look on my son’s face as he checks under every log and thinks every fallen tree in the shape of an ‘X’ is the blaze. For me, that is my blaze and I have found it, along with a trove of amazing memories on each and every trip I have been fortunate enough to go on in this beautiful country.

    • Yeti,

      Sounds good.
      Have you tried making circles? You talked about Forrest said marry the clues to place on the map. Well a circle is just like a “ring” given in marriage. Try some 500′ and some 200′ circles from you married solves and see if they cross and put a X on your map for you. Especially your “put in” place with a 500′ circle and then some 200′ circles on the solves after that.

      I put in 500′ circle at my put in spot and one 200′ at HL and one 200′ at WH. Those circles all crossed at one point and made a nice X on my map below WH.

      Will this help in the location of the chest, I’m not sure, but it’s a great place to look.

      Good luck Yeti,
      Bur

      • Good Morning Bur;

        I concur. I think that the circles idea is GREAT. It sure has worked out for me. I now have an “X” created by the circles, an “X” created from a couple of hints in TTOTC, and all three cross at the EXACT same place. WOW – has me excited – Hope my search team can put BotG soon – JDA

        • Dang JDA,

          Sounds like you have a lot going for you. Maybe I need to take you to my spot and you can show me the blaze!!! LOL

          Of course that doesn’t make sense because then one of us has to be wrong, and who knows which one might be right. Of course we both can be wrong, but we will not tell anyone that. Again LOL

          Thanks for the reply and good luck with those circles.
          Bur

          • Well Bur;

            If we are both right, we are in the same spot, and I am willing to share – maybe 🙂

            If we are both wrong, I won’t tell if you won’t 🙂

            Have a GREAT day Bur.

            Question Big blaze or little one??? 🙂 JDA

        • JDA,

          Big blaze or little blaze? Don’t confuse me I’m having a hard enough time just trying to find one blaze, the correct one that is.

          You have a great day too.
          Bur

      • Bur, Thanks for the suggestion. I have tried circles and like the idea. Just wondering if a clue in the poem led you to these circles, or Mr. Fenn’s comments about how close searchers have been? In any case, the blaze I found will lead to within several steps of a specific location, whether or not that is THE location is as of yet unknown. The only thing I know for sure is that I do not have the chest. For now, I think more circles will just leave me spiraling down a rabbit hole I may already be deep into

        • Yeti,

          I thought of the circles when Forrest stated that searchers had been within those two marks 500′ & 200′.

          The 500′ mark to me was on the main trail (at the put in place), that’s where the searchers got the first two clue solves, wwwh second canyon down (main trail), but went by the rest (didn’t take that put in off beaten trail).

          Now the npuyc creek is first seen by me about a 100′ up this trail, so as far as it being the 200′ point that did not work from the 500′ place. but both the HL and the WH did for me.
          So my thinking is the searcher(s) that were at the 200′ point were at HL but did not recognize it as a clue answer for HL and went back to the main trail and continue on down it to another search area they had planned to search.

          That’s my idea on this dilemma.

          Watch out for those rabbit holes, some can be deep and everywhere.

          Good luck,
          Bur

          • Gopher and prairie dog holes for sure will trip you up, maybe break your horse’s leg. Thought I had a clear line on a clue then down a hole I went.

        • Yeti and Bur – Your comments made me want to reconsider the Golden Triangle and the Logarithmic Spiral as a model for the pattern of blazes I see leading ever inward to my hide-y spot:

          https://ih1.redbubble.net/image.634861036.4380/aps,650×642,small,transparent-pad,750×1000,f8f8f8.jpg

          Didn’t Forrest tell us to go out in Nature, and into the forest, where we should, “turn over a log”? Could he have meant the concentric ring patterns of a fallen tree? Or, could he have meant the Fibbonaci spirals that occur in Nature and in the forest; as an “As Above, So Below” bird’s eye view, or archictectural model, or ‘blueprint’ of the Poem clues ‘married’ to a map?

          Does Forrest’s use of, “turn over” and “a log” possibly mean, ‘turn over’ plus ‘A’ plus ‘log’? Is that ‘A’ reference to the ‘big picture’ of a Golden Triangle turning over in a Logarithmic Spiral?

          Just a theory. Getting out my ‘good map’ and a compass tool. Forrest did say the Poem was written, ‘by an Architect’, did he not?

  24. I believe The Blaze is a Rowan tree, also known as a North American Mountain Ash, which is common in the Rocky Mountains. I say this because it is tied to wisdom and is sometimes referred to as a blaze. On page 25 and 26 of Forrest’s book in his moment of wisdom with his dad, Forrest mentions something in regards to Thor and in his hand. According to Norse mythology, Thor was saved by a Rowan tree by grabbing onto one of it’s branches.

    Other credence to this theory is that it aligns with Forrest’s descriptions. It blooms white buds in the spring (they turn to red berries and make the tree look like a literal blaze in the fall), it can be removed by a person but no one would reasonably do it, there are billions of them (slight exaggeration), you can stand specifically where it is at.

    • *** *** *** ***
      Mark E proposed – “I believe The Blaze is a Rowan tree, also known as a North American Mountain Ash, which is common in the Rocky Mountains.”
      *** *** *** ***

      The Ash trees (Fraxinus) in and around the Rockies are very different from the berry-bearing Rowan “trees” (Sorbus), most of which are more like large shrubs, and none of which are common (if any) in the Rockies.

      JAKe

      • (It’s the Fraxinus genus that the emerald ash borer beetle is tucking into recently here in Boulder CO.)

  25. I truly believe, when Fenn is ready, he will let us know that the last clue is the blaze.

    • Now Jake, THAT is illogical. Why would Forrest ever limit the clues? Makes NO sense to me, but maybe that is too logical. – JDA

      • I didn’t mention logic. It seems your mind is stuck on something you can’t grasp. LOL

        I believe….

      • ken,: “you can find it if you can find the blaze as the result of starting with the first clue. That’s what you have to do”
        Great quote to post ken.

        I thought when you posted that quote it would have solved the debate but some are stock on FLAWGIC.

        Then JDA uses this as his logical evidence that the blaze is not the last clue:
        1) the poem is comprised of 166 words; six stanzas; 24 lines containing 9 clues. (JDA-this doesn’t help either case)

        2) Forrest spent a large number of years getting the poem to say what he needed it to say. (JDA-this doesn’t help either case)

        3) The nine clues are consecutive. (JDA-this doesn’t help either case)

        4) Every word is not needed, but Forrest would not discount ANY of them. (It’s not what Fenn said & JDA-this doesn’t help either case)

        Flawgic.

        • jake…there are a couple of others that are just as damning….however, folks are going to see what they need to see…no matter what.

          • Yup,
            Sorta like when I was convinced the chest was under water and took a while to get over that but I will still look in a creek that I am going to cross.

          • Jake…I remember your water days! It’s funny now right? At least you were not on a rampage to [prove for a fact] the treasure is in the water… like some. Shoot, I searched[as a last resort] in the water during a trip early on in my Chase. Probably a lot of folks started or ended up in some kind water in their searches. Some few folks landed in a lot of [hot water] for various reasons as well. It’s symbolic in a way…kind of the life cycle of the searcher; the egg[idea] is laid…it hatches and falls in the water and does it’s thing for a while and grows…. and then finally comes out of the water with wings and a new mission…

          • Ya, well, you know he said the treasure, chest is wet a couple of times so I just thought he meant submersed and not taking the overall definitions of being wet into account.

            The only reason I don’t find it funny is because of the deaths. I was the one putting the camera in the water not myself but I did cross some creeks and a couple were scary when the water flow was strong.

            It’s better to progress than regress. Give yourself a chance to find the treasure as well as live life to the fullest.
            The life cycle thinking of a searcher seems to change a lot but I’m trying to stay simple.

            Our blood is very similar to salt water from the oceans we were probably from and maybe someday we will go back like other land mammals like porpoises. Sorry, wrong blog….

            Get your alien egg ass out here and find the treasure!

      • Ken,

        Then the blaze can’t be seen from GE .. right?

        If the blaze is the last clue, some would argue the blaze can only be recognized from a certain angel on the ground. While possible… Does that mean the blaze can be seen from GE but not regonized?

        lol… Just another head scratcher

        • You know….that’s one of a few [million dollar] Q’s to ask oneself while making a [plan} of attack. Aaron just posted another of the obvious Fenn quotes over in O+E….the Casey comment. My belief is that the location[blaze] can be determined…but the actual blaze cannot be physically seen using a map or GE. One other good one is….” That’s right Philly…”

        • Here’s some more to chew on….
          Just because we’ve been told there are nine clues in the poem/need to be followed in order/consecutive, and to not discount any of the words[risky]… doesn’t mean that ALL of the words in the poem are explicitly CLUES or actual parts of A clue. Are these said words part of the information needed? I’m betting they are…just maybe not an actual clue per se.

          • I quite agree Ken, that is why I say that stanza is a prelude – Part of the information needed – While the clues are in the remaining 5 stanzas – JMO – JDA

  26. We all have our opinions and viewpoints.
    Who is to say this one is right and that one is wrong?
    Only one man: Forrest Fenn

    With that;

    Once upon a poem, I did ponder, a walkout someplace yonder.
    Eyes set ablaze as they skipped across the page.
    With thoughts of treasures bolden, I might go a strollin.
    In the wood, atop my turtle, I go. Dang, the meek, tis treasure I seek.

    So in the wood I go, a box to sleep. Someplace in the mountains cold.
    From canyon down to the home of brown. Ever searching for indulgence.
    The air crisp and clean, if you listen you can hear the babble of a nearby stream.

    So tarry scant, yet take in with marvel gaze, Snow capped mountains and lush green lands.
    I hear the pines calling, no place to weep. cause one really needs no paddle to go up this creek.

    HDD

  27. One good exercise to do with the Blaze is as follows: Forrest has called the blaze “it” several times, Forrest has also called it (in a round about way), a clue. so we all can make the point that the blaze is well.. a “point” in space. what if “it” actually meant the other obvious thing a blaze can be… the path of clues. Every time I hear the word “blaze” I think of when old timers used the term, it meant the path. basically a line of points/marks.. but also if you were looking at a mark, then they would interchangeably call the “mark” a blaze.

    so as a what if… if you want to add to our collective confusion 🙂 do this:
    if Forrest had to answer questions about the “blaze”, (and it were in fact the ‘path’) how would he answer the question without giving away the “answer” is that it was actually the ‘path’?

    place yourself in his shoes in other words and do this here and now on this board:

    list all times Forrest has had to/wanted to, answer a question about the “blaze”, and put your self in the answer trying to answer correctly the question, and not give it out as a path.

    1….
    2….
    etc…

    along with can this answer be accurate, and still mean both things, I think I know them all and it sure looks like it could easily be the path too, but feel free to prove that thought wrong if you wish.

    • Writis. This isn’t necessarily what you are suggesting but kind of on the subject. I like to take his ambiguous answers to things and come up with different versions of what they could mean. I understand that sometimes a cigar is just a cigar (to quote a brilliant line by Colokid) so it seems obvious that one single object means something simple like a cigar, but then again…

      Q: Forrest, is the Blaze one single object?

      A: In a word yes. I mean in one definition of the word yes, it is the single purpose, aim, or goal of this specific action or effort; the object of this game, this Chase, the path you must follow, the trail I have Blazed, so in a word yes, it is the one single objective. And the reason the line “If you’ve been wise and found the Blaze” is past tense is because if you’ve made it this far you figured out the clues, you’ve BEEN wise and followed the path from the beginning, and if you did that correctly you have found the end, the Blaze. Now look quickly down lol…

      • Yes that is the idea of how to think of how would you Answer. So if we were given this question. And following our theory, how can we answer this question? Is it close to how forest answered? Without giving it away, or possibly just trying not to give anything away. Tough one, that was an email question so he had time to think. Yet the answer is not as windy as I would expect.

        • Also, that he answered it at all is interesting. He didn’t have to answer this one correct? Can’t remember where it’s from.

        • So we have one where the question is: is it a collection of things basically a path, which he refused the answer, and a question that is the opposite: is it a single thing, which he had all opportunity to not answer, but he did he didn’t avoid it at all. I have zero idea what that means yet.

          • Writis: for your consideration. Suppose the blaze is a collection of things, but it is labeled/identified by a one-word name. If so, “In a word, yes.” affords alternate possibilities.

        • Actually, when he did answer that email, after you said in a word yes. he went into about the same exact spiel as when he answered the collection of points question. Basically he has reach down deep to answer the blaze question With a standard answer that he has whipped up. And still I have zero idea what that all means. Is he hiding from the path question

          • Maybe it’s just a “paper trail” that he is leading us down.
            What’s in “a word” ? Letters.
            JIMI

          • If the blaze line was the last clue, then what would we do at the blaze? There would be no clue on what to do. You have to have a clue after it to know what to do.
            Looking down, whatever it means, would be an instruction, would get you closer to the chest, and thus, be a clue. And who’s to say that “marvel gaze” isn’t actually something physical? He doesn’t give you title to the gold until line 24, so are we really taking the chest and going in peace at line 16? And how did we get in the wood? If the blaze is a bunch of way points, a path, where do we look down along that path? If the blaze is close to the chest, how much room is there for a path? Because if we find the blaze, the distance will be obvious. Also, if our effort is worth the cold, in Summer time, then wouldn’t knowing it get us closer to the chest? Why can’t we just drive around looking for a blaze first? If there is an answer for it, then we could find it first. F has never said that you need to use prior clues to solve clues, but he said you could use hints to help with the clues, so if there was an answer for the blaze, then we could find it. Prior clues not needed.
            The blaze is a physical thing, not things. We still need to know what to do at the blaze. This means that the blaze, at best, could be the 8th clue, not the 9th. If we consider it the 9th, then we need no more of the poem. Stops there. You could say that the rest of the poem is used as hints to solve, but, at line 13, the path is done. You wouldn’t know look up, down, East, West, North, South, whatever. Is the blaze like a podium out in the woods with the chest right on top or within so as there would be no mistake on what to do, highly doubtful, anyone could then find.
            I find it ridiculous to talk more about solving clues then solving the poem, but that’s IMO. Especially after the ATF of how the blaze, wwh, and hoB are no where in a subtle way.

  28. one could go on to analysis the h*ll out of this, categorize the question/answer into if it were an email, or live show, or impromptu. so did he have time to think in otherwords? or was he put on the spot?

    I think the ones where it was an email, (time to think) would be the most creative answers, the put on the spot ones, I believe, contrary to what most would think, would be the most incorrect, meaning, that he would over compensate to the “other side”… rather than ‘giving something away’.

  29. no body is going to convince anyone one way or another, but we sure could have a good fun ‘argument’ one way or another with the thing properly formatted here. Hey might as well try to solve one small piece collectively. how is holding on to one’s pet theory working out for our ‘just reward’ going?. if we are going to arm chair this to death, might as well have fun doing it, you might break a confirmation bias in the process. I am plumb out of bias.

  30. 1. Forrest: “the blaze is a physical thing… it is not theoretical, …. boy did I give you a big clue, … that’s not a clue… it doesn’t take a scientist to figure out that a blaze is.. is something you can look at”,

    category: mostly impromptu interview questions on tape, but had a little time to think about it.. so it is giving a big clue… well.. “that’s not a clue” 🙂

    1a) the ‘answer’: now place yourself in his shoes… (and if for arguments sake the blaze is the path) did he answer it correctly? did he lean a little bit to the “other side”? are you allowing for impromptu nature..

    in fact he is answering a similar but important question that he probably has heard many times.. is the ‘blaze’ really an imaginative thing, the sun’s tears, the breath of a unicorn, no it is really something you can actually see, I am pretty sure he was not mincing words there. you can see it maybe even touch it, can you see a path? is a path physical? can you touch a path, is it theoretical… some can argue this, well we can all argue this.

    but for us, did he answer it correctly, using our theory?

    • “Not far but to far to walk……”
      Your thoughts and theory are exciting – a new way to think about it.
      Gonna give it another shot with some major adjustments and then see what happens. Wish me luck.

  31. I’ve thought the Blaze could be an image from the TTOTC book, something only a searcher would recognize.

    • Could it be that only a searcher would be trying to determine what the blaze is?

  32. 2. questioner: “the blaze is a collection of something?”
    Forrest: “a horse has a blaze on his forehead here… rocks that have a white face… that could be a blaze… (partial quote) etc… etc”

    category: impromptu interview questions on tape, this one is extremely impromptu, and caught Forrest by surprise.

    2a) the ‘answer’: this one question and answer is the most interesting of all in my opinion, basically it asks the question directly, is the blaze a path. which I don’t think Forrest expected. I think he had to reach deep into his mind set of ‘answers’ to answer this one, you know, when you prepare for an interview, you try to practice and anticipate… basically this answer is exactly how he had envisioned answering a question about the blaze.

    but for us, did he answer the question, let alone correctly… no… not even close.. he basically is refusing to answer this question. now we should go on to throw out our bias, and say, well regardless of how he ‘answered’ this, it would have given too much away… so we can’t say that it means the blaze is a path. we can’t really say anything.. there was a none answer…

    never the less it is very interesting.

    • 3. Forrest: “The clues will lead you to the treasure and whether it’s buried or not, you can find it if you can find the blaze as a result of starting with the first clue. That’s what you have to do.”

      category: “the Lure” Post-screening

      3a) the answer sure makes the blaze sound like a “point”, and not only that, the final clue too. so clue 1) biwwwh, clue 9) blaze, fill in the rest, not many lines between those two, 7 lines and 7 clues, perfect fit.

      Can we wrap this in a path? actually we can, substitute the word ‘path’ for blaze, and it reads natural, and then the important part, clue 9 would not be the blaze, and blaze would not be the ‘end’. which kind of fulfills a Forrest statement that only a few words are not important to finding the treasure in the poem, (basically emphasizing that “many/most” words/nouns are important).

      So having the clues abruptly end in the middle of the poem sort of negates even having the rest of the poem, hints or not, important or not, one basically ends the clues in the middle of the poem, having the blaze as the 9th clue is kind of very strange in this context. Yet here we have Forrest saying it is (if it is a point in space) and the next few lines saying one is basically done with the finding the chest.

      contradiction on the highest order, unless the blaze is a path. confusing though. (what else is new)

      • I am of the firm opinion that the blaze is in fact a path of sorts – JMO – JDA

  33. If someone teases about the big W (from the film “It’s a Mad, Mad, Mad, Mad World”), does this evoke a Hmmm?

  34. OK I want to give this a try : THE BLAZE , now , in the chapter [ me in the middle ] FF said his brother is 2 years older and his sister 2 years younger than him , that was significant because he felt somehow surrounded , he could look up to his brother but not look down to his sister cause his dad wouldn`t allow it . but now he can , so we look up to see the BLAZE and then look quickly down to see the END OF HIS RAINBOW , that put us in the middle . IMO

    • JPE – That works for my solve. Looking up at the final ‘continue straight’ blaze on my pine tree, you can look quickly down to find the end of Forrest’s rainbow in my hide-y hole. I hope.

      And Forrest said Skippy should have been buried standing up. Maybe that was so Forrest could always look up to him?

  35. JPE wrote “… so we look up to see the BLAZE and then look quickly down to see …”
    ————————————————————-
    Okay, but what is the physical object we are looking up … at?

  36. KEN , unfortunately we will not know that until we SEE it [ the BLAZE ] if we have made it to this point in the clue`s [ correctly ] we should know what the BLAZE is when we SEE it . sorry i did not have the winning answer for you , but it is the perfect answer for me !

    • I think we should be able to find the blaze during our armchair searching. Of course we can find it during our BOTG, but if your solve is the right one the blaze is right there at the end of the creek where “from there it’s no place for the meek”. The color of the blaze is one of the rainbow colors, I’m pretty sure of that.
      — MK

      • I think I agree with that MK. In other words, the blaze should not be unknown before going botg.

        • Ya, I agree.
          When I’m driving around with my arm rested and sitting down in a chair in my vehicle, I can see the blaze.
          Sure, you should be able to find the blaze doing this.

      • MK wrote: “… if your solve is the right one the blaze is right there at the end of the creek where “from there it’s no place for the meek”. The color of the blaze is one of the rainbow colors, I’m pretty sure of that.”
        —————————————
        Quite a few assumptions there, MK.

        I suspect the person who finds the chest will not be “pretty sure” of much of anything, until he or she retrieves the chest.

        • Ken {TX} ~ ‘I suspect the person who finds the chest will not be “pretty sure” of much of anything, until he or she retrieves the chest.’

          Anything?

          “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but *sure* for the one who did.

          Seems we should be “pretty ‘sure” of something… beforehand.

          • And: “You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest.”

            That to me says the blaze included. If you need botg to find the blaze you have a general or incomplete solve. Most probable the wrong one.

          • *** *** *** ***
            “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but *sure* for the one who did.”
            *** *** *** ***

            Smokin’ that primo Forrest Zenn leaf, eh?

            The path to ANYTHING is sure for someone who has certainty of the location beforehand.

            The salesmanship is that *we think* he just said “you too can have certainty of the location beforehand.”

            The face that sold a thousand paintings.

            JAKe

          • Hopefully, I can get a good headstart – I’m gonna need it.
            Wood anyone be willing to aid me hear?

  37. JAK-
    Read it as, “The path will be “shore” for the one who has a certain ‘T’ before ‘hand.'” So you must look for a “T” before the “hand” along the path to the water’s “shore.”

    And “for the one” could be “4 is the one”, or use the path of the 4 to the water’s shore.

  38. If you are not sure about your solve, you can’t say for sure that the color of the blaze is one of the rainbow colors, can you? Even though I don’t have the chest yet (because I haven’t gone my first BOTG yet), but I’m “pretty sure” (as Fenn said ” *sure* for the one who had certainty of the location beforehand”) that I think I have the correct solve. The following list shows some of the ATF hints from Fenn that confirm my solve with my comments added in the parenthesis.

    Look at the big picture. There are no short cuts. (I found the picture he was talking about. There are no shortcuts literally as well as physically)

    At least 8.25 miles North of Santa Fe, New Mexico (with numbers and period rearranged correctly)

    Located above 5,000 ft and below 10,200 ft (in the video he first uttered “seven” before he corrected himself to “five” thousand)

    “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental”. (That’s what I did, plus some luck of course. I’m not a super genius like Fenn)

    Q: Were both trips made on the same day/date? “I made two trips from my car to the hiding place and it was done in one afternoon.f” (I think one way distance is probably about a half mile or so, and 4 times of that equals about 2 miles in total, but it must have taken him roughly 2 hours, down and up and down and up in hot summer afternoon)

    “There isn’t a human trail in very close proximaty to where I hid the treasure.f”. (But there is a human trail in CLOSE, not very close, proximity to where he hid the treasure)

    — MK

    • MK,

      Sounds like your solve and mine are similar in these two particular aspects, but they are most likely not in the same area. I park and leave my vehicle for about a 1/4 mile walk downhill and return uphill to my vehicle, and repeat a second time for a total round-trip walking distance of no more than one mile to 1.5 miles. I am especially intrigued why you use the terms “down and up and down and up on a hot summer afternoon”. That matches my first visit to my solve area two summers ago.

      Now in my solve, there is a human trail in close (but not very close) proximity to the treasure hiding spot. This all depends on what the definitions are of “close” and “human”. To be more realistic: Forrest must have parked and left his car for a short and not too strenuous walk somewhere “close” to a road or trail or otherwise how could he have walked a reasonable distance for an 80 year old man?

      Want to share locations or ideas?

      McK

      • McK, your description sounds a lot like an area I have previously searched. Approximately 1/4 mile from parking area to resting place. Problem with my place, it was very exposed. Ie, FF would be found within a few hours at most. Just not enough cover if you wanted it to be a private area.

        • Yellowdog,
          I agree that there are discrepancies in our search areas. My “parking area” is not a public or frequently visited site, but rather a remote spot where I did not see a single person during one summer afternoon. My “put in” place however is an actual put-in spot for recreation enthusiasts on a gravel highway but this is several miles from my parking spot. Even at this unloading spot for atv’s or snowmobiles, I did not see a single vehicle parked when I was there.

          Anyway, because this is a site for discussion of the Blaze, I prefer to steer discussion toward a possible Blaze at my site. I suspect it could be petroglyphs on sandstone cliffs in the area or possibly a reference to stands of aspen trees in a creek immediately below my “omega” promontory. I would imagine these to be spectacular in the Fall. There are plenty of hiding spaces in this area, which is tree-covered with crevices and small openings hollowed into the sandstone cliffs.

          Would welcome feedback from you or other Searchers.

          McK

    • You said ; look at the big picture , then you said you found the picture he was talking about , can you say what that picture is ?

    • I am positive that a searcher has and will be able to see it. FF IS A VERY TRUTHFUL MAN HE HAS SAID WHAT IT IS MANY TIMES IT JUST HASN’T BEEN COMPLETELY RECOGNIZED IMO..

        • Geydelkon,

          I’m curious as to why the blaze is unrecognizable? It seems to me the blaze has to be recognizable for one to find the chest.

  39. Look up the sculpture called Buffalo Prayer located at the Buffalo Bill museum. Also find the back story of how it came about. In this case the buffalo is the blaze.

  40. People are busy looking for the blaze and have yet to go into the rocky mountains. So I hope that makes sense.

    An Indian Scout and A Saint

    • That makes sense, I do see that hypothetically the blaze only lives in the mind of folks, in that manner no one will find the blaze, too much imagination.

      • Last post for now. Forrest uses it all the time. He is funny that way. I can just imagine us sitting down and having a hotdog and chips.

        I figure he wont be calling me the moderator anytime soon.

  41. Happy 4th everyone. I am just going to drink my Corona with lime and watch the grandkids have fun creating a light show in my backyard.

    An Indian Scout and A Saint

  42. you must be joking, but I don’t know you so I’ll bite.
    So it reads correctly in your rear view mirror.
    Did you realize your selfies are all reversed also?

  43. I’ve always imagined that forrest actually made two trips because the rock carving tools for the blaze were significant weight.

    mBG

    • Hi mBG,
      your idea that Forrest created blaze with some rock carving tools contradicts with last part of Forrest statement:
      “The treasure chest is not under water, nor is it near the Rio Grande River. It is not necessary to move large rocks or climb up or down a steep precipice, and it is not under a man-made object.”
      TC is not under a man-made object i.e. blaze is a natural single object. If Forrest touched some rock with rock carving tools this object becomes a man-made object.

      • Bot, the blaze isn’t the chest. That ATF describes the chest, not the blaze. mBG could be right, even though f has said it was because the chest and it’s contents just weigh too much.

      • I think arguing that a rock that has been carved, is now a man made object is a stretch. At the very most it’s a matter of one persons belief or opinion. I don’t have a clue what the blaze might be, so don’t put me into the rock carving category but I would consider that man altered as opposed to man made. I wouldn’t consider a carving in a tree as something that now makes that tree man made.

        The carving would be man made but so would any arrangement of timbers or rocks or dirt pile that he may have used to conceal it.

        Even if you could call a rock that’s been carved man made, who ever said it’s under it. Maybe it’s close by, perhaps the final trail marker to the gold. But the information you’re siting comes from two sources, the one you quoted and the other where he said the treasures location isn’t associated with any man made structures.

        And I think a rock carving could easily fit within those lines. It doesn’t have to be under the rock carving, if you classify that as man made and a rock carving is most definitely not a man made structure.

      • Andy S;

        “If Forrest touched some rock with rock carving tools this object becomes a man-made object.”

        Putting a marking on a rick does not make it a man-made object. A rock is a rock is a rock. Some are flat some are round, and some may even have markings on them, but they are still rocks. It might be a man-adorned rock. It may be a man-decorated rock, but it is still a rock – JMO – JDA

        • Hello brothers and sisters of the Thrill.

          I would like to ad in my opinion, I believe that the “Blaze” was and has been there since he was toast there in the 50’s it is a place he visits in his mind, I believe strongly he took no tools with him when he hid the chest. I strongly believe he knew the location of the Blaze and the hiding spot while he was in his teens.

          Man you gotta love this CHASE!

        • JDA, your logic will fail when you see marble sculptures (modern or ancient). Are they just still marble rocks or man-made objects?
          IMO but Forrest never put any marks on blaze – it will attract too much attention (especially in rural area).

          • A sculpture (made out of non-man-made stone) is a man made object – the stone remains non-man-made.

            I am a stone sculptor. I CAN make a sculpture, I can NOT make a stone – no matter how hard I try. JDA

          • JDA,

            I think carving a stone creates and image, a man made image, don’t you usually place that carved image on stone pedal stool? Sure it’s stone, but with out man’s intervention it is merely a stone.

          • Come on, JDA. You can order cultured marble (man-made marble) and make a sculpture from this material. Thus, you can make a stone.
            “Cultured marble is a blend of stone particles and resins that is combined with pigments to produce a wide range of colors and realistic, natural looking patterns – cultured marble, cultured granite, and cultured onyx among them”

          • Andy this is getting silly. I said that “I”, as a sculptor can not make a stone. Sure, some people somewhere can create an artificial stone – one the will NOT be suitable for stone sculpting – but is good for countertops and showers etc.

            Whether some man – somewhere can make an artificial stone has nothing to do with your original statement – “f Forrest touched some rock with rock carving tools this object becomes a man-made object.” FORREST is NOT making an artificial stone – he MAY have put a mark on the stone! Just sayin’ JDA

          • P.S. If mBG wants to believe that Forrest put a mark on a stone – Let him Go for it.

            If you want to believe that that stone is now a man-made object – go for it. Who am I to try and dissuade either of you otherwise? Happy 4th week-end and Happy hunting to you both- JDA

          • JDA, maybe it’s just philosophic question i.e. what kind of treatment will convert stone to man-made object?
            Rosetta Stone was just a simple granodiorite stone before someone carved text on it and converted this stone to famous stela. Now it’s definitely man-made object that become the key to deciphering Egyptian hieroglyphs.
            BTW, I don’t believe that Forrest gave us Rosetta Stone via carving something on stone and after this he named this stone the blaze. It will be too easy. I even not sure now that blaze is a stone. Anyway, I will not try to follow some shadow as it was shown in very old movie “Mackenna’s Gold” 🙂 Everybody believes in solution that was generated by his/her own brain. If you show me your solution I’ll reject it because it’s not my and most likely it will contradict with my own solution. It’s just human nature 🙂 So, let’s stone(s) be stone(s) whatever they touched or not by human hands.
            Well, I don’t have any gut feeling that TC will be discovered in 2019 summer. Maybe if someone found it this summer it will be a relief for many searchers. They will stop traveling to 4 states mentioned by Forrest and finally will go to other states to see new places. It looks like that Forrest will not give us some new clues or hints i.e. he will just wait before end (chase or his life).
            If all avid searchers like you failed new generation of searchers will invent some new methods for search. For example, they will give all information (TTOTC, SBs, all Fenn quotes and interviews etc.) to artificial intellect and then just ask it to analyze it and answer one question: where Forrest hide TC? And maybe AI will give them only one answer,,, OK, my fantasies become too wild after several beers 🙂
            Happy 4th week-end and Happy hunting to all searchers! Will have one more beer to cheer Forrest that gave us such great thrill of the chase!

          • Andy S.

            As you say, it is a philosophical question. One of Semantics and or of perception.

            A sculpture IS a man made object, as is the Rosetta stone or an Egyptian obelisk. The stone itself is NOT man made, with the rare exception, as you stated, of artificial stone.

            So, “It is not associated with a man-made object.”
            (May not be an exact quote) As you say, when does a rock become a “man-made object?” One carving, two, ten, twenty, 1/4 of the surface, 1/2. 3/4? Heck if I know.

            IF I find a rock with one “FF” carved on it – or any other marking that MIGHT relate to the chase, I most certainly will not run past it because Forrest said that “It is not associated with a man-made object” – thus it CAN’T be near or under this rock 🙂 I Most Certainly will investigate it. How about you? 🙂 JDA

          • JDA, of course if I find a rock with one “FF” carved on it (or even better double omega) I will look quickly what is below of this object and around it (maybe via some sharp metal probe or metal detector). Next time I will bring it with me.
            IMO, but maybe the blaze is easy recognizable only for searchers, Recently Forrest said: “If you are in the right spot something you probably haven’t thought about should be OBVIOUS TO YOU.” Thus, everything we need to do is to found right spot 🙂 To be just 12 feet distance near the blaze. Distance that short enough to see some marking on stone surface.
            Hikers and tourists will not pay any attention to it but TTOTC searchers (wise ones) will.

          • JDA – “The stone itself is NOT man made”

            +1

            Please take a moment and have a look at the stone slab memorial in Hanna WY, and then the cemetery. I suspect these might inspire you.

          • JDA – would you consider a stone sculpture to be a “structure”, based on your understanding of the definition of the word? Curious. I appreciate your thoughts on this topic.

          • Hi Sally;

            According to this definition:

            construct or arrange according to a plan; give a pattern or organization to.
            “the game is structured so that there are five ways to win”
            synonyms: arrange, organize, order, design, shape, give structure to, assemble, construct, build

            I would have to say “Yes” to your question. It is one of those things that would be right on the edge of a definition I suppose. I personally would shy away from calling one of my sculptures a structure, but by the strictest definition of the word, I guess I would have to say it is a structure – darn – hate it when that happens 🙂 JDA

          • I believe Forrest said that specifically that the chest is not associated with a “structure” rather than what is being said above, so “man made” can not be used in this context, a sculpture would not fall into that structure category, sculpture is the art of taking material away, (JDA can correct me here), structure is the art of combining materials to create a system or format or framework etc…

          • oops, there is a quote “not under a man-made object”.. I had always used the early ones where he used the word “structure”.

          • Writis;

            Look at the definition I posted. It includes the word “Shape” – To craft a stone into the desired SHAPE. To SHAPE the stone into the desired configuration. So, it works. I don’t like it, but it works – JDA

    • meBigGuy,

      “I’ve always imagined that forrest actually made two trips because the rock carving tools for the blaze were significant weight.” mBG

      Forrest never mentioned that he carved anything for the blaze, maybe you got this idea from what Forrest said on the Richard Eeds Show 5-29-2015, in regards to, two trips.

      “The gold in the treasure chest weighs 20.2 troy pounds. And the chest weighs forty, uh, twenty two pounds. So the whole thing, I think, is around 42 pounds. It was heavy enough that I made two trips to hide it. I took the gold in one time, and then I took the treasure chest in the second time.”f

      You “imagined” this about two trips for stone carving tools. Yes you have good imagination that’s about it, but not plausible. 🙂

      Just Say’n

    • It was actually the battery pack for the class 4 laser that he used to create the blaze that was so heavy. He had a massive solar panel to charge the battery pack and was out there for months finishing it.

    • Well, I was being a bit tongue in cheek with the two trips and tools comment (I did say imagine). But I disagree with most of your responses:

      1. “The treasure chest is not under water, nor is it near the Rio Grande River. It is not necessary to move large rocks or climb up or down a steep precipice, and it is not under a man-made object.”

      “Under a man made object” wouldn’t disqualify “nearby a blazed/marked object”.

      2. If the blaze has been there since the 50’s (and it is not in very close proximaty (sic) to a human trail) then it is not, in any reasonable interpretation, what I would consider a blaze.

      Remember, this is an object marking Forrest’s final resting place. It’s not going to just be “oh look, a cool white rock”. I actually favor a petroglyph-like or engraving on a large rock. Possibly on the uphill side (if you were wise enough to look there) to make it hard to find.

      3. But, irregardless, this is all conjecture. I never throw out any logical idea. Keep them coming.

      mBG

  44. It sounds like fun and speculating about it may keep the hopes alive… but without nailing down the first clue and deciphering the clues up to the blaze will probably result in nothing but a great time out of doors in the Rocky Mountains. I hope everyone has a healthy search season…

  45. Hi folks at HOD. This seems to be the correct place to post this.

    Been sorta gone for a while, but want to say ‘so long’ more permanent/official so to speak. Ya’all are a great bunch and i thank everyone for contributing and helping others search. I, myself, was surely lacking in that department.

    My searching is over. I need to move on to doing other good things. This has been a great quest for me even though i did not find the TC. I did find something completely unexpected, though, so all is good! Shoot – all is GREAT!

    I’ll email Forrest also and thank him. But the doggone guy never responds to any of my emails. If anyone here sees him, tell him thanks for me. Thanks again folks and best of luck to you all in finding that chest.

    J

    • Hi and Good-bye Joe;

      I always hate to see searchers leave, but you seem to have a great attitude about the experience of having been here. Good luck to you in whatever is on your agenda next – TRY and STAY SAFE in all that you do – JDA

    • Don’t you know this is like Hotel California?
      You can check out any time you like…

  46. This is Ken’s wife. Just wanted to say that Ken enjoyed following this chase very much. He passed away on June 2. Thanks to Forrest Fenn for creating this chase and fun for so many people.

    • I am so sorry for your loss. SpecialKLR (Ken) will be missed. Ken found a treasure, just not the one he sought. JDA

    • I am sorry to hear this… It brought tears to my eyes… I am glad Ken got to enjoy the chase… He will be missed…

    • Hello SpecialKLR. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family. Ken will be truly missed.

    • Thank you for sharing this – our thoughts are with you, Ken, and the family.

      Whether intentional or not, The Blaze is a great place for Ken’s “last heard from.” That puts him well ahead of most of the rest of us in this chase.

      Pax,
      JAKe

    • Very sorry to learn of your loss, and very kind of you to take time in your grief to let the Chase community know. Sounds like Ken really enjoyed Forrest’s challenge.

    • Our hearts are saddened by your loss and our thoughts and prayers are with you. May peace and comfort find you during this difficult time.

    • Deepest sympathies. I never had the pleasure of meeting him, but I am saddened by news of his passing.

      I know what it is to lose a spouse, so I will keep you in my prayers. May peace and strength be yours.

    • I am so sorry for your loss. Thank you for letting us know. Saying prayers for you and your family.

      • Very soory to hear of this long time searchers passing. Foes anyone one know when he last posted? I remember him. He was a big part of our search community.

    • So sorry to hear this news. Ken was one of the main posters here at HOD, and was well respected. He had a keen mind and seemed to really enjoy the discussions.

      It’s easy to take people for granted. We think they will be around forever, and then suddenly they’re gone.

      Ken (in Texas)

    • So sorry to hear about Ken’s passing. My sympathies, thoughts, and prayers to you and your family. He will be missed.

    • I just read this…. 🙁 Specialklr was a very good friend of mine over on the poetry page….I’m saddened deeply to hear this news. My thoughts and prayers are with your family during this difficult time…

      “ Ken you rest upon your cloud,
      In gaze from high above.
      Like a shepherd, looking down,
      Protecting those you love.”

      You sure will be missed by me my friend… until we meet again…see ya Ken….

      Focused

    • Very sorry to hear that Ken has passed. I remember reading many posts from KLR and always enjoyed them. Condolences from one ken to another… Thanks for letting us know.

    • I’m very sorry to hear this sad news. I’m glad that Ken got to enjoy his time in the Chase, and he will be missed.

    • I am saddened by this news. Thank you for telling us, you didnt have to, but you cared enough to do so. My deepest condolences for your loss, and ours. He will be missed. Much love to you and your family.

    • My deepest condolences, I liked reading Ken’s posts.
      He will be missed by this ole armchair searcher.

      Best wishes to you and yours.

      HDD

      • HDD: good to hear from you! Folks here were concerned for you given your proximity to the Ridgecrest quakes.

        • Thanks to all for prayers etc.
          Funny thing is just before the 7.1 hit I was up on a latter finishing
          up our pergola. Just as I got off of the latter and took two steps it was like riding a surfboard. Currently, we have power and comms.
          Water is being trucked in. The main road has been repaired.
          local streets need attention. Inside of my tool shed is a disaster. No water for my swamp cooler so no cooling of the inside of the house. All in all, we faired well, considering others lost their homes.

          HDD

          • Thank Gosh you were off of that ladder. Our thoughts and prayers go out to all who are suffering in one way or another due to Mother Nature – Stay Well – JDA

  47. Very sorry for your loss. You were kind to reach out to those who interacted with Ken and wise to recognize what brought him joy, some positive distraction and a unique challenge to his final days on earth. May he rest in peace.

  48. I’m so sorry for your loss. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family. Please reach out if we can support you in any way possible.

  49. I’m so very sorry for your loss. My thoughts and prayers are with you and your family.
    We are here if you need anything.
    Take care

  50. I did not know Ken ,I am sorry for your lost.Think of all the good times and you’ll be to gather again and again.Clint

  51. I just read this and I am so sorry for your loss. Ken was one of my favorites on this site and I will miss his input and his humor. God bless you.

    Deano Bravo

  52. You are in my thoughts. Lost my wife of 32 years June 16, 2 years ago. This search helped motivate me. The passing doesn’t leave an empty place, just a quiet one. Treasure the memories.

  53. Hi CharlieM … I had assumed that the reference was to the “Ken” who uses a brown cowboy hat as his avatar. It certainly was not me (Ken in Texas).

    Since Ken (with brown cowboy hat) posted 5 days after the Ken who died, and since I am still here, the deceased must have been a third Ken. I have known for years that there were multiple Kens at HOD, which is why I always post as Ken in Texas.

    Apparently the reference was to a poster whose screen name was “Specialklr”. My condolence to his family continues.

  54. Come on folks, really? Considering Forrest’s words. Imho the blaze is a natural object.
    One which people see every day and do not realize what it represents.
    As an example look up fish rocks in Trona ca. Minus the paint one just might figure it out.
    ” Imagination “

  55. As we are following the poem [ like a road map ] to each place the next clue takes us , we are not looking for the chest because we know it is at the BLAZE , so we are not looking down , but when we find the BLAZE we have got to LOOK QUICKLY DOWN . we most likely will need to search a broad area to find the chest , IMO , FF is just telling us that it is time to start searching the ground for the chest when he said LOOK QUICKLY DOWN.

    • JPE ~ ‘As we are following the poem [ like a road map ] to each place the next clue takes us…’

      Not exactly.

      “..look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions. f ”

      There are many different types of maps other than a “road map” Would you consider Google Earth strictly a road map?

      You also stated; ‘…we most likely will need to search a broad area to find the chest , IMO ,…

      In short, a Q&A; Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey … If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious.

      The above doesn’t sound like a ‘broad area’ that needs searching, does it?
      IMO… you’re underestimating the reason for the blaze. I mean, it is what we are told to find in order to find the trove.

    • Hi JPE … You said “As we are following the poem [ like a road map ] to each place the next clue takes us , …”
      ——————————————————-
      Glad you said “road map”. After having solved WWWH, the 8 remaining clues take us to eight different locations that we must figure out from the clues. Fenn even used the phrase “road map” in a recent MW response.

      So use a road map all you want, to help identify these 8 locations, while sitting comfortably at home, as Fenn also said that most of the clues can be solved from home before we ever go BOTG.

      Happy trails,

      Ken (in Texas) 🙂

      • Ken {TX} ~ ‘ After having solved WWWH, the 8 remaining clues take us to eight different locations that we must figure out from the clues.’

        Is that not simply an ‘assumption’ that each of the 9 clues we are told to decipher is a different location? Or even, each clue reference is a place at all?

        I mean, should NFBTFTW [and considered as a clue] be of a distance between two points, does that ‘distance’ act as a place / location of its own?
        Why would we even need this clue -?- [ as a place or an unknown distance ] if all we needed to do is locate hoB on a map, with the idea of WWsH and Canyon Down to work from.

        Example; Clue 1 NYC. Clue 2, the tallest avenue of skyscrapers and the direction they line up with. Clue 3 NFBTFTW… to clue 4, LA.
        How do we interpret a ‘place’ for clue 3?

        How about “Put In” and “home of Brown”? Is this one place or two? In CharlieM theory; Brown Mt. is hoB and the Put In is below the mountain… that’s two places for clue’s references… right?

        This reminds me of Halo’s Q&A about the number of clues…

        • ken – I don’t think there are 8 or 9 places that’s my opinion nfbtftw is a clue of distance – as far as put in I think its part of wwwh that’s the only place that is below (wwwh) hob- and I call put in – a place- is because it goes with wwwh- wwww is put in below hob

          • frank,

            I get what you’re saying.
            A house is a place, and there are places within a house… but the house is still a single place.
            Should hoB be part WWsH, can we really say it’s a “different location”?

            My point is about ken {TX} comment; ‘After having solved WWWH, the 8 remaining clues take us to **eight different locations**…’ is, this forces all the clues to be a different location.

            There is no room in his comment/ idea for your idea of hoB being part of WWsH… right?

            There’s no thought to how; “Not far, but too far to walk” can be anything else but a different location / a place of its own.

            con·tig·u·ous; sharing a common border; touching. next or together in sequence.
            Synonym; touching, bordering, adjoining, near…
            Antonyms: distant, distance, far away…

            Just saying all the clues are of “different location” ‘forces’ a reader to decipher them apart from each other…and… *all* clues being places / location.

            Only we have been told they [the clues] are contiguous. And have never been told all clues refer to only places / locations.

            The comment; ~marry the clues to a place on a map ~ give some the idea that the clues are places / locations of themselves.
            I get it…
            But the comment can be read as; clues to ‘A’ place on a map. { which is exactly the way it is worded }
            Not unlike the idea of a house having different places it is made of, but still a single location.

            IF ya like; A waterfall works well for this example.
            Water changes movement, even if that is only temporary [halt], flows down [CD] Not far, BTFTW [ the actual distance is of no consideration. nor known of by the poem]
            Put in below the hoB.
            All these clues make up one single location, in very contiguous manner, that without their contiguous individual deciphered reference, the location can not be called a waterfall.
            How many clues do you see in that scenario? 3 – 4?
            How many different locations do you see? 4? 1?

            Again, Ken {TX} method that there are 9 “different location” doesn’t allow for the above waterfall to be a possibility at all.
            When we have nothing [to date] that suggest *all* clues are of different locations… It’s force fitting 101. And for the life of me, I can’t see how NF,BTFTW is a “location” of its own.

            To be honest… Ken {TX} comment says nothing. There’s no explanation to why this comment is remotely true or even usable/workable. Its a fortune cookie post with no backing to what was stated.
            How are we suppose to have a conversation about it.. if there’s no reasoning added?

          • Seeker said…

            “My point is about ken {TX} comment; ‘After having solved WWWH, the 8 remaining clues take us to **eight different locations**…’ is, this forces all the clues to be a different location.

            There is no room in his comment/ idea for your idea of hoB being part of WWsH… right?”

            ——-
            I’m hoping I’m understanding Seeker’s thought here.

            I think there is room in the comment for hoB being the same geographical thing as wwwh is. While most of the clues are different locations.

            An example is if wwwh is a lake or marsh. Once a searcher moved from wwwh to canyon down and beyond to below the hoB the put in below hoB would be a different location than where one started but wwwh and hoB could be the same geographical thing. The searcher has just possibly moved from one side of the lake or marsh to the other side which happens to be closer in travel to the tc.

          • FD,

            The point I was attempting to make.
            The lake is the first clue, idea. But what caused the searcher to move was how they entered the area…right?
            The canyon pointed them to the other side, I assume. and then they go looking for hoB.
            The way I read that is 3 clues, 3 different places. Only one place [WWsH] a searcher need to be in a specific spot.
            To ‘move to’ hoB is a different location. You had to move to the canyon first before hoB.

            Now… what we [you and I] need to decide is; figure out the difference of place vs. location. { I gave my idea with the house, and waterfall, scenarios } how do you distinguish the two words?

            LOL I see this as the same problem as buried vs. covered… and that is why I need to think about all the ATFs to draw on a reasonable and logical conclusion. [ part of which I posted to Geoff’s post on the Odds n Ends thread just now ].

          • Seeker, I honestly don’t have a good answer for what is the difference between a place versus a location.

            I don’t understand the reason why one needs to delve into that.

            Ants and elephants.

          • “figure out the difference of place vs. location”
            I always thought they were interchangeable, sorta like “dumb” and “stupid”. lol

          • Jake, FD,

            Exactly. They are so close in meanings and usages, that when the words are used they imply the same; With one exception, If both words are used in a single description… Hence the ideas I presented; In ‘those’ cases ‘places’ are what makes up a ‘location’

            When used separately A Place can be a location.
            With that said, we are dealing and talking about ATFs. However, the many ATFs seem to show a pattern to how they are used.
            Now, back to the idea of ALL the clues are of “different Location” is simply an assumption. I could also add, some places / locations might be repeated… such as WWsH and HLnWH could speak of the same place / location only being described differently.

            Only that idea can’t work if we are to think as ken{TX} implies, 9 different locations for 9 clues. This idea alone imo, forces a possible good / correct location of WWsH to fail every time, if not the correct method.
            LOL, what has happened so far? ~No one has correctly given fenn any correct clues in order after the first two. [ that comment has stood for more than 7 years… with one comment about the first four clues solved, but even fenn was uncertain?]

            I could really care less when the solve is completed… [ the challenge has done its job, it got tens of thousand of their butts and out in the mountains ]… but I would like to be around to see the reactions. Especially if it doesn’t play out the way many think it should… 9 different locations / places to map out.

          • There are no exception Seeker.
            Your example you gave can be worded this way and both words are still interchangeable.
            Hence the idea I present: In both cases “location” are what makes up a “place”

            Seeker: “Hence the ideas I presented; In ‘those’ cases ‘places’ are what makes up a ‘location’”

            Interchangeable no matter how you arrange them.

            A lot of “stupid” means the same as “dumb” and a lot of “dumb” is “stupid”.
            See how that works?

          • Hi Jake;

            Here is one quote from Forrest :

            Dear Forrest, In 2014 you said,
            “It seems logical to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use logic to determine an important clue to the LOCATION of the treasure. Is someone doing that now and I don’t know it?”
            Since saying that, has anyone to your knowlege used logic successfully to determine that important clue?
            Thanks Eiseley

            No one has said anything to me about it Eiseley.” f

            To me, this quote seems to refer to a small, defined spot (LOCATION) where Indulgence is. and NOT a large geographical PLACE like YNP. It seems as though in Forrest’s mind, anyway, LOCATION refers to the exact LOCATION where Indulgence is. If Location and Place are interchangeable, why didn’t Forrest say PLACE instead? Forrest could have just as easily said, ““It seems logical to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use logic to determine an important clue to the PLACE that the treasure is…But he didn’t for a reason – JMO – JDA

          • This is just a quick search in my database:
            All interchangeable.

            “There’s no PLACE that you can put a treasure that under the right circumstances, there are no complications.”

            “I did hide the treasure in a PLACE that is dear to me.”

            “I cannot think of any better PLACE for my bones to rest for a few millennia”

            “…riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure LOCATION, although those things have been offered as positive solutions”

            “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the LOCATION beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

            “It seems logical to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use logic to determine an important clue to the LOCATION of the treasure.”

            “Will a metal detector help? A metal detector will help you if you are in exactly the right SPOT.”

            “very special SPOT”

            “they’re going to have to figure out the clues & let the clues take them to that SPOT”

            Is “dumber” the same as “stupider”?
            I think so. Kinda reminds me of the movie “Dumb and Dumber”.

        • im doing ok ken thanks for asking- looks like im having better days now then bad ones – still not out of the woods and the fight is not over but im still hanging in there – I shouldn’t of used the words – hanging in there – but you know what I mean- lol have a good day ken

        • Seeker,

          Didn’t Forrest say something to the effect that the area is huge but the location is small? You were writing above about locations.

          My recent post for all to see is in a huge area and it ended up in a small location. A place is a is an exact spot. Just food for thought.

          • *Your destination is small, but its location is huge.

            Charlie, we even have choices for thought with this comment.
            I could say the destination is a place within a huge location. Not Unlike the house example I used above. But another idea is how “huge” is used. Is is of size or of importance?

            I mean, some have thought the chest was hidden at fenn’s dig site. It may not be very large in size, idea, but huge of its importance of the location.
            Another example, and a bit more reasonable [ because we know the chest is not at the dig site ]. The Continental Divide seems both huge in size, and of importance, yet a location / destination on it can be small… right?

            Its this type of thinking that still leaves the possibility of 9 “different locations” but also allows only two or three physical location / places a searcher needs to find.
            However, if we only use the idea that All the clues must have different location … other ideas can’t even be thought of. To me that’s not analyzing the “WhatIF” or any other possibility like; this could be an observational task… and everyone would do the same thing, just in different areas.

            Sound familiar?

            Where is the imagination? The adjustment? The planning? The Observing?
            Maybe the better questions should be;
            **What do we need to**
            Plan for?
            Observer?
            Use imagination about?
            and
            How do we best adjust?

            Unless the desire is to keep it simple…

          • Seeker,

            You might be right with your thoughts and not necessarily true. This reminds me of the word IT, different thoughts, but not necessarily true.

          • Seeker,

            I for got to add that Forrest has told us to simplify, I took as in general for searchers to do so with their theories. Where is the boundary of simplifying a theory and simple? This also could refer to anything within the poem including the blaze.

  56. a blaze to me is a marked tree to keep track of trails. major trails, some i think marked by lewis& clark are in MT. & WY.

  57. the only places I have found – that are places
    1-wwwh
    2-hob
    from there- the end- no paddle – just heavy loads and waters high
    and the blaze are different places but close togather the blaze- in the wood and where the tc is are different plazes but are also close to each other- from hob to where the tc is I think its 20 miles long – from wwwh to hob is 30 miles apart all this is my opinion- any other clue I think are directions on how to get to these places

  58. Anyway, this page is supposed to be blaze related.
    The blaze has to be made from Mother Earth, not synthetic, not man made, not a shadow, not a tree or something that won’t last a thousand+ years.
    Not a trail, road or path even if it’s made by animals.

    The rock it’s on may be seen from GE but I doubt it. You cannot see the blaze from GE.
    What would be the point of getting people out in the wood?
    I think the blaze can be seen and recognized by someone 12 ft away but not recognized 200 ft away.

    It’s one thing to see it but another to recognize something that stands out. You have to be in very close proximity. That’s what I think.

    • And I think that you are not right in a couple of aspects Jake.

      I think that it does involve a shadow.
      I think that the shadow is created by something that can easily be seen on GE and easily seen from 200′
      I agree that it is natural, and not man-made. It is not a tree, nor a trail
      You have to be at a particular spot to see the shadow that reveals why it is the blaze. JMO – JDA

      • A shadow is not an object. The blaze is (in a word) an object.
        A shadow is cast by an object.
        But, I encourage you to chase shadows at the Kt boundary.

        mBG

        • MBG,

          A sundial is an object… The shadow it cast is the result of that object, that gives us ‘information’

          Q&A [ in part ] ~ If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. [distance from the blaze to the chest]

          Should the blaze not be the exact spot of where the chest lays in wait… Can the blaze [an object, something of nature, if you will] point to the 10″ spot for our quest to cease?

          While the idea seems to be lacking… might I suggest… that stanza 3 is more about a “institution” that is no place for the meek, rather than an individual place somewhere else.

          I get it… the idea is a bit hard to grasp because we seem to want stanza 3 to be of places / locations.
          From there… might indicate the last actual place we are at or see [ seemingly hoB ]. But does NPFTM tell us; that it is an actual place?
          One “Place” meaning is; a situation.
          The next line; TEIEDN sounds like it could refer to time or ‘the end’ of a certain situation.
          The next line; TBNPUYC. LOL this also sound like a situation one finds them self in… right?
          But are they indicators for when the task can be “complete” (completed?)

          So, before we can complete the task of locating the chest [ once the blaze is found ]
          ow can the blaze point us to the chest-?- IF the chest is not exactly at the blaze?
          We have been told the blaze doesn’t point NSEW, idea. We can also assume any other directions in between…right?

          What would a shadow do in this case? Would “it” not ‘point’ to the 10″ spot? [obviously the blaze should be of ‘a shape’ for this to happen].

          Nope, a shadow is not an object… but an “object” [the blaze is an object as we have been told] is needed for the light to be block to cast that shadow.

          In theory anyways……

          • In theory . . . .

            Three questions about “a shadow”:

            When is “a shadow”?

            How long is “a shadow”?

            Which direction does “a shadow” point?

            *** *** *** ***
            “Why don’t you ask me how deep is a hole”? – ff (on multiple occasions)
            *** *** *** ***

            Jake

          • Morning sunrise, June, linger a scant amount of time.

            How long is it? I guess ya need to be there to know that answer.
            Which direction the shadow is cast? Ima guessin’ it would be a westward point for the morning time period.
            But to clarify, “the blaze” doesn’t point in any direction.
            Two trips to carry the weight, done in one afternoon.

            What else do ya want to inquire about?
            I kinda thought there would be more questions lol.

          • Seeker re Shadow-Blaze – “Morning sunrise, June . . . ”

            Guess we’re done for the season. I sorta thought there’d be more dates.

            How’d yours turn out?

          • JAKe;

            The Summer Solstice may have passed, but if you know what a particular shadow would have looked like at sunrise on June 21, 2019 – What stops you from establishing coordinates for a particular spot on that shadow, and going to that spot on any day of the year?

            Seems logical to me – JDA

          • There are so many things to ask and say about this [shadow] exercise.
            There are two elements to a shadow; 1) light 2) object
            If using natural source of light…. um… sunlight, the [time] of day is crucial to the forming/shaping of the shadow.
            Shadows form in the [opposite] direction of the [object] blocking the source of light. On a sunny day practically everything casts a shadow… even you.
            Rayleigh Scattering is responsible for the formation of shadows. I remember playing shadow puppet games at night in the tent with a flashlight. I’m flipping the switch to the OFF position now….

          • Ken,

            I’m missing your point… Sure a shadow cast is similar to looking in a mirror… a shadow of your right hand [fingers] shows the thumb as a left hand side. So?

            As you said, the time of day is critical. But you might be forgetting about is, when the light rays hit a certain location. I used morning time for my reasoning [ what I think is begin relayed by a clue ]. However… that morning light can be later than early morning [ say, 6am ] because of the landscape [ say, a mountain ] This could cause the light rays to be at a single object a bit later than actual sunrise. [ Lets say 7 am ] and a angle to cast a shadow many feet long.

            This is the main idea of having botg… these type of – for lack of a better term – interaction of the sunlight to the landscape needs to be seen when it happens, to “complete” the task.
            So, might it be too far fetch to see the sun pop over a hill or mountain in the far distance and case a shadow to an exact point for a short amount of time?
            It may be that WWsH is in a canyon… could the light rays peek over the edge in the morning, but not at the meteorologist predetermined hour of the sunrise for that area?

            Ya might not like the idea… but with a little thought to it … you can see how it’s possible to know when or time of day, but not to the ‘exact minute’ beforehand.

            I’ll add, could the line in the poem; “But tarry scant with marvel gaze” be saying a searcher needs to “linger” [tarry] a short amount of time [scant] [ morning ] to see this developed?
            This brings up the next question; is BTSWMG the last clue that can’t be seen from GE.?

            And all viewed from WWsH.

          • I was just shadow boxing in front of a mirror and decided to move another mirror behind me to see the action from another angle. Interesting and I noticed that my moves are better than I had originally thought.
            At this [point] with the rehash of the rehash I still believe there is not enough info being supplied from the poem to even come close to pinpointing a specific [time of day]… and even more importantly… time of year… to proceed with certainty with this line of thinking. It may be an intriguing topic to ponder… but not for me.
            Rabbit-hole alert…. Rayleigh; Old English element (rye) and (leah)… wood, clearing, meadow. Indicative of one who lived near a rye field.

          • Don’t punch your shadow(s) too hard ken, they might punch back in theory anyway.

          • Hi Ken: you’ve identified the crux of the problem for solutions requiring a temporal element: how is Forrest to convey that critical information in a 166-word poem (assuming no ciphers or codes are utilized)? It’s hard enough providing navigational instructions to lead a searcher to the precise spatial coordinates. But to make the poem responsible for relaying X, Y, Z and T seems like a bridge too far.

            And it’s not just a single T, of course. For a solar-based alignment element, the time that the alignment occurs would vary with day of the year, and even the year itself. So for a solution that requires the sun to be at a particular azimuth and elevation angle in the sky, you’d need an ephemeris: a tally of the time(s) on each day (going into the forseeable future) that the sun would be in the correct position to carry out whatever function Forrest is using it for.

            Now, if Forrest *did* want to use such a system, he could take advantage of the topography to reduce the number of variables. For instance, the instruction “Look on the summer solstice when the sun first rises above that distant mountain ridge.” That takes time of day and year out of the equation, and any such alignment would be valid for probably any day within a week either side of the solstice (per my earlier calculations posted here), and in any year.

          • *** *** *** ***
            Seek’ supposed – “So, might it be too far fetch to see the sun pop over a hill or mountain in the far distance and cast a shadow to an exact point for a short amount of time?”
            *** *** *** ***

            Yep, too far-fetched. A hill or mountain “in the far distance” does not cast a crisp visible shadow very far. You simply cannot see a sharp shadow of even the pointiest mountaintop from any real distance at all. The ambient light in the atmosphere diffuses the shadow, even before direct sunlight. You really do need at least a little observational experience with naked-eye astronomy before tossing out sticks for fetching.

            *** *** *** ***
            JDA – ” . . . but if you know what a particular shadow would have looked like at sunrise on June 21, 2019 – What stops you from establishing coordinates for a particular spot on that shadow, and going to that spot on any day of the year?
            Seems logical to me.”
            *** *** *** ***

            In theory maybe, but not likely in practice.

            1 – Why Summer Solstice sunrise? Why not Solstice sunset, or noon on the 4th of July? Do you really find date-and-time info in the poem?

            2 – How in the world do you establish coordinates for a particular spot on a shadow cast at a particular time in a particular place?

            Only direct observation at that time *and* place will do. You cannot look up times and angles, and then apply them accurately to the *local* topography. All the geometry and trigonometry you can get your hands on cannot help to account for the vagaries of the local topography.

            *** *** *** ***
            Zap’s observation – “It’s hard enough providing navigational instructions to lead a searcher to the precise spatial coordinates. But to make the poem responsible for relaying X, Y, Z and T seems like a bridge too far.”
            *** *** *** ***

            Yep, as several of us have written everytime this “Shadow-Shortcut” has been proposed. The poem so far hasn’t been able to get everyone to the same place, let alone at the right time. And the poem can really carry all that extra weight in nine clues?

            The biggest irony of this whole “Shadow-Shortcut” sideshow is that it’s not a shortcut at all, it’s a long-way-round-cut; take three lefts to turn wrong.

            Jake

          • JAKe;

            You posted this:

            In theory maybe, but not likely in practice.

            1 – Why Summer Solstice sunrise? Why not Solstice sunset, or noon on the 4th of July? Do you really find date-and-time info in the poem?

            A. “From there it’s no place for the meek” Could imply night – “The end is ever drawing nigh” can be interpreted as the end of night is drawing near – It is almost sunrise.

            The same line of reasoning – the long winter is coming to an end and the “Dawn” of Summer is close at hand – The Summer Solstice.

            2 – How in the world do you establish coordinates for a particular spot on a shadow cast at a particular time in a particular place?

            A. Quite simple actually. Google Earth has a feature that lets you set the time of day, on a particular date. You can then place “Yourself” (The little doll) at a particular spot. Rotate the “earth” until you are looking at the rising sun on June 21, 2019 at0 4:54 AM. You can “see” the shadows cast from that “viewing spot”. You can see where a particular shadow begins and/or ends. Mark the spot – get the coordinates for that spot – go to that spot a week or month later. Will it be perfect? Probably not, but close enough to find what you were looking for.

            Maybe there is a Knoll – hoodoo – or any one of several natural features that would cast a distinctive shadow ONLY at the time of the Summer Solstice.
            It will show up on GE – maybe not precisely, but again, close enough. JDA

          • JAKe;

            I left out a step or two. Look at the sun coming up over the horizon. Draw a line (if you want to) from the sun to where you are supposedly standing). Turn your back to the sun – NOW look at the shadows – Like a said, a knoll, a hoodoo, or some other land feature. This land feature will cause a shadow to be cast. Look for where the shadow begins, or ends, or some specific feature of the shadow that is created. Mark the spot etc. “Something” that you had spotted earlier that relates to the OBJECT that casts the shadow, will tell you what spot to mark on the shadow. – JDA

          • JAK ~ ‘Yep, too far-fetched. A hill or mountain “in the far distance” does not cast a crisp visible shadow very far.’

            You apparently misunderstood. The landscape [ a hill or mountain, for example ] around the area changes the Estimated sunrise of the area to hit the blaze… As the sun rises over the area’s landscape it then and only then hits the object [ the blaze ] It a very simple conclusion…
            Unless you want to play fetch?

            I’m not sure if the rest of your post was to me or JDA, But I’ll give it a go…

            ~Why Summer Solstice sunrise?
            I do find a line in the poem that can refer to a month. The interpretation of that line suggest a single month… again, unless you are only looking for the bone, and not attempting to decipher you might not understand the line as I read it.
            ~ How do I establish coordinates?
            I don’t. Why would I need them?
            But I guess once you’re there and see how it all unfolds you can whip out your GPS if ya like.

            You stated ~ ‘Yep, as several of us have written everytime this “Shadow-Shortcut” has been proposed. The poem so far hasn’t been able to get everyone to the same place, let alone at the right time. And the poem can really carry all that extra weight in nine clues?’

            Might it be we’re reading the poem wrong-?- in a manner we only hope is conventional to just about every other type of treasure hunting? You call it a “short cut” You can lable it the idea anyway ya like, but it seems to only be a “short cut” to those who prescribe to 9 clues having different [and sometimes, independent] locations.

            You also stated; ~ ‘The biggest irony of this whole “Shadow-Shortcut” sideshow is that it’s not a shortcut at all, it’s a long-way-round-cut; take three lefts to turn wrong.’

            Maybe I missed it. Who called this a “short cut” or is this something you made up? IF the idea of fenn leaving his car, walking a 1/4 or more to a location of WWsH and spotting his created clues of the physical environment [features] to by telling us which direction to look in, an idea of ‘Not Far’ but don’t go walking there, locate a reference to hoB and then follow the instruction, from there, in the rest of the poem… as a “short cut”… the so be it.
            I think it tells us; don’t go where an 80 yrs old carrying a heavy backpack can’t go… Ya know like; physically traveling down a canyon, back up and walk the same route to the car, and then take the same route, back down said canyon with the second load, go down again… then walk back up the canyon to walk the same route to his car … and that is not even taking into consideration all the other walking that many put in a solve.

            OK, I see your “short cut” now… I think.

        • MBG;

          Why isn’t a shadow an object? Look it up:
          Object:

          Definition of object

          (Entry 1 of 3)
          1a : something material that may be perceived by the senses I see an object in the distance.

          (A shadow can be perceived{seen} by the senses.)

          b : something that when viewed stirs a particular emotion (such as pity) Look on the tragic loading of this bed … the object poisons sight; let it be hid.— William Shakespeare

          (The shape of a particular shadow could create an emotion can’t it?)

          2a : something mental or physical toward which thought, feeling, or action is directed an object for study the object of my affection delicately carved art objects

          (A shadow IS physical, is it not? It IS real is it not?)

          b : something physical that is perceived by an individual and becomes an agent for psychological identification

          (Again, a shadow is a physical thing created by light being blocked by “Something” be that a Person or thing)

          A shadow seems, at least to me, meets the definition of an object. How say you? JDA

          • JDA, first off I’m not in the shadow group of theorists.
            With that said I will not argue that a shadow is an object but I would argue that it is a physical thing. A shadow has no mass and cannot be touched or held, it’s a lack of light as opposed to being a physical thing. So in that regard it’s real in the same sense that darkness is real but again, I would not call darkness a physical thing either.

            But where I can’t draw the line as to where a shadow is an object or not is in the sense where one may be referring to finding a shadow as their objective. In that regard it would be an object or thing in which a person sought to find.

          • Hi Double a;

            You say that a shadow can not be touched. Why not?
            I can reach down and tough my shadow. True, I am actually touching the surface on which the shadow is being projected, but I still CAN tough it can’t I?

            I realize that many will not agree with my premise, but I am convinced. Side question – If shadows are not important why did Forrest place only a shadow on TFTW – and not the man AND its shadow? Maybe some day Forrest will answer that question.

            Keep on keepin’ on – JDA

          • JDA,

            First I want to thank you for your email reply.

            Shadows are usually in photos, I don’t think the photo you are referring to, really has no true meaning other than a photo.

            Trying to make something out of nothing is not a help in answering what might be a lead to a clue. Day, and time a shadow appears is useless, you can’t count on a shadow to be there when it happens unless your into astrology and mathematics, which specialized knowledge.

            Just Say’n

          • With all due respect JDA you answered your own question. You don’t touch the shadow you touch what the shadow has hindered the view of with its lack of light. It’s like touching something at nighttime, does that mean you touch the darkness as well?

            I think that the closest thing to physical stimulation one can get from a shadow would be feeling the coolness that a shadow may create when it blocks out the light. But that’s not the shadow your feeling that’s a byproduct of the shadow blocking out the heat from the reflection of the sun. I’m not arguing that a shadow may create its own microclimate in that sense either, I’m simply stating that there’s no way to touch a shadow. I don’t really even think there’s much to that debate when physics is used as the tool of reconciliation.

            But as I said, there’s a strong argument to be made for a shadow being a thing one is trying to find and in that sense would very much be an object or objective.

  59. What Is Blaze?
    “Anything that stands out.”
    There are an infinite amount of shadows and they are all the same gray shade where they don’t “stand out”.
    I tried shadow boxing back in 2016 and realized I couldn’t hit anything no matter what state I was in. Have fun chasing shadows now, but I’m sure it will change again soon.
    Your thoughts are dynamic.

    • Jake;

      Think of a pyramid, or the Washington Monument. I would call their shadows distinctive, and I would think that they would “Stand out”. I am not saying that the object that creates “my” shadow is a pyramid or an obelisk, but you get the idea – JDA

      • You better wish for sunny days when you go searching which is a flip of the coin which is luck and from all the Fenn statements I read and heard, I don’t think he ever mentioned you would find the blaze or treasure with a lucky flip of a coin.

        I get the idea and don’t think it’s a logical choice. Not even close!
        Good luck chasing shadows!

        • Jake;

          What was that OLD radio show? “Who knows what evil lurks in the hearts of men? The Shadow knows.” 🙂 JDA

          • Oh, OK, That solves the problem logically.
            I’ll quote Bugs “What’s up doc?”
            Bugs is asking because he knows you’re in a deep rabbit hole and that’s the only way out. lol

          • Lamont Cranston – Crane is the etymon. Same feel as windlass if we’re talking about the blaze. And then Elmo is back on the table.

      • I tried to make a trail work as the blaze for a half a year and kept coming back to problems. The main issue I have is where along this trail do I have to look quickly down and the obvious problem is that if we are on that trail, the trail is down under your feet.
        My conclusion is the blaze is not a trail.

  60. I cant explain why but i believe the BLAZE ” can ” be a large area , you have to know what the edge is , the chest is at the EDGE of the BLAZE . I really think it is .

    • You can’t explain because you don’t know how or you can’t explain because it would reveal too much?

  61. No “Reply” option upthread again, so I am responding to Seeker here.

    Seeker said: “Only that idea can’t work if we are to think as ken{TX} implies, 9 different locations for 9 clues. This idea alone imo, forces a possible good / correct location of WWsH to fail every time, …”

    ———————————————————————–

    Seeker, I’m not about to spend 4 hours responding to all your comments above; you’re all over the place with comments about WWWH in a thread about the blaze. So I’ll keep my response here short. What I post below is of course my opinion.

    The poem has 9 clues; each clue represents a different location. The clues are in consecutive order in the poem. Each clue can be thought of as a mathematical vector leading away from the previous clue location. Searcher must solve each of the nine clues independently of any other clue, which is one thing that makes the hunt difficult.

    You assume that all searchers are as confused as you seem to be. I’m way past WWWH. I’m satisfied that I solved that a year ago. If you knew the truth of where WWWH is, you’d see what I see about your upthread comments.

    It’s up to you to extract yourself from the haze you seem to be in.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • Ken{TX}

      Another fortune cookie post.
      Hiding behind three letters {IMO} doesn’t allow the BS you spilling;
      ~You assume that all searchers are as confused as you seem to be.
      ~It’s up to you to extract yourself from the haze you seem to be in.

      All the thread are for conversations… even the ones that are disagreed upon. I have always attempted to show n tell my process of any theory. On the other hand, you simply bark out things like; The poem has 9 clues; each clue represents a different location. And on the other thread; call out the idea of you’re following a rule{s} of some sort, yet never explain how that is.
      You said ~ Searcher must solve each of the nine clues independently of any other clue, which is one thing that makes the hunt difficult.
      Where or how do you come up with the theory?
      Just saying it doesn’t make it so. Fenn has said’ all the information to find the chest is in the poem and the clues are contiguous. Where is it said “…the nine clues independently of any other clue…”???
      Your statement of; “Searcher must solve each of the nine clues independently of any other clue” needs an explanation to why it’s a “must” and not just three little letter of “imo”
      Especially, when you tell me or others our explanations and theories are; Magical, In a haze, or Accuse someone of being confused.. when you add nothing in the way of reasoning why anything is a MUST or a RULE, as you like to say they are.

      • Ken (in Texas)
        I want to give you some info on maybe the structure of the poem clues on how I see them.

        9 clues and each location clue is seen on one of two trails. Those trails are one being a main trail that many do travel, and the other is a off beaten trail that takes you to a area most people would not take.

        Now each location clue is not related to the next clue, like WWWH is not at hoB and so on. The only connections are the trails you are taking. The only clue that relates in itself is “put in below the hoB” only because the place you “put in” is a distance from hoB’s location, but to keep this clue together hoB is at a higher elevation thus how “below” fits it fit together.

        Ok now location clue solves are not in close proximity to each other and I will use 50′ as that distance only because npuyc creek does go by HL at about that 50′ mark. All other distances from location clue solves are in ranges about 100′, 200′, 500′ even about 1.25 miles in distance from each other.

        Now as for line of sight clue solves, wwwh can be seen from hoB and at wwwh you can see hoB. Both these places you can see the “canyon down” trail. After you go down the canyon trail for a good distance appr. 1.25 miles you can see the “put in” place on this trail. Yes these two trails touch each other in a tangent kind of way. Once you take this put in trail it verses off to the left and in a little distance you come across npuyc creek on the right of the trail. As you continue up this trail you will see HL to the left of the trail. Once you reach HL you can see from it npuyc creek on the right side of the trail. Continue up this trail and you will run into WH.
        While at WH you can look down and see some of HL because of it’s height but you can not see WH from HL ground level trail because of the tree canopy in that direction. As far as seeing the blaze at WH, I have not determined what the blaze truly is yet, but it should be in the line of sight from HL I believe. Then of course where indulgence lies it should be seen from the blaze spot.

        Whether or not this is all correct I will not say it is, but it is what I have come across with my clue solves.

        So maybe you want to give these thoughts to your poems 9 clue solves and maybe share them with us.

        From wwwh to the blaze area I put a one way distance between 1.50 – 1.75 miles.

        Good luck,
        Bur

  62. Chris C.;

    “Begin “it” where warm waters halt – warm waters halt (end) at “S” – ”

    Why pluck the “S” of waters? Why not the “H” from wHere or the “H” from Halt? That would make “Hit” – Your method seems far too arbitrary for me.

    How can this method be used throughout the entire poem? Good Luck though – JDA.

  63. Howdy, all.

    Generally speaking, A location implies a specific area and a place implies a general area.

    Just sayin
    HDD

    • HDD,
      Location also means; the action or process of placing someone or something in a particular position.
      Is this the reason for nailing down WWsH .. a particular position to be ‘fixed’ at?

      The question is; why we need WWsH or we have nothing?
      I highly doubt we can figure that reason out, with just that line in the poem by itself, as Ken [TX] implied; ‘Searcher must solve each of the nine clues independently of any other clue,..’

      Just sayin…

      • Seeker,

        IMO each clue helps with the previous clue and the current clue that you are working helps with the next clue.

        Example: NF,BTFTW helps in finding PIBTHOB, then you can answer what NF,BTFTW means in distance, then PIBTHOB helps with FTINPFTM, etc. Each clue is consecutive and is dependent on the previous clue and the next clue. Each clue is of a different place, thing or distance, and tied together to form the path to the treasure in consecutive order. IMO

        I do have a question for you. You said up thread there needs to be planning https://dalneitzel.com/2019/04/09/the-blaze-7/#comment-782196 Please explain what you mean by planing, you also said I didn’t do any planing for my theory.

        How do you plan the first clue and so on, and how do you plan for the blaze?

        • CharlieM,

          Your breakdown of places, things, distance, is a fair example of working through the poem. But my comments to Ken{TX} was about his idea of all the clues* must* be different location.
          Example; an unknown distance only found out when the prior clue is solved and the later clues is known of, is not a different location. Actually, IF a distance is discovered this way.. [the clue before is deciphered and the clue after is also deciphered].. the actual distance is mute.

          Ok you asked what plans might be needed. The planning part is strictly for the poem… nothing to do with time off from work, or extra sock, just to clarify.

          I think stanza 3 explains why there is a need to plan, to complete the poem.
          NPFTM is not a place, as much as, a situation needed to be planned for. I think it refers to a possible over-nite stay or an early morning hike [ if you know the area very well]… [ not unlike fenn’s story of fishing with the bison before dawn, idea ]
          The idea is, the situation of being in the dark, the sounds of the wild, in the mountains [howls, yips, growls etc. the slithering of critters – NPFTM ] The clues is about a time when a searcher needs to be on site [ for the sunrise ].

          NPUPC is June. I’ll let you figure it out.
          Fenn also finally stated when he hid the chest [ summer ]. Why would this be important in June?
          The summer solstice and the position of the sunrise compared to other days of the yr. [ in fairness, there can be a small window of 3 days.. the day before and after could result in the same.] I’ll add, Movement of the RM’s will have an impact on the clues in the future – [3009] idea.

          TEIEDN is about the old day to the new day. or Hints of riches new and old, and the end of the challenge is drawing near.

          While many won’t like this idea because it basically says we only have three places to be known of [WWsH, CD, hoB] instead of 9 different places… hoB would be the blaze… seen from WWsH… our observational point.

          I also think; your effort will be worth the cold refer to an over nite stay in the mountains. LOL not a night at the beach.
          And brave and in the wood connects to HLnWH which is the same location of WWsH. This, I think, relates to what and where WWsH is and about.

          There it is;
          Step 1~Find WWsH on a map and go to it.
          Step 2~ Look in the direction of the canyon [down], The canyon is NF, But TFTW to. it’s a direction to look.
          Step 3~ hoB is only seen from WWsH [ I think there’s a reason for this angle ].
          Step 4~ Wait for the morning sun on a specific day and hoB cast a shadow to a 10″sq spot [which could be many feet long, depending on the angle of the sunrise and landscape of the area around this location]

          Call the above [without explanations] the sticky note solve… Plan and Observe.
          Insert the Elliot quote here.

          Learning WWsH [ if I’m correct in the assumption of the first clue ] is trickier than expected.

          Side note; This is an attempt to read the poem with the chosen, deliberate words of the author and their meanings, as fenn *may have intended* those words to unfold a ‘completed’ task.
          Something he would also have had to followed when he hid the chest ‘IN’ his special place.
          How the chest is actually hidden is of no concern, as long as the clues lead ‘precisely’ to that 10″ spot.

          • Very nice breakdown Seeker. I hope that we have the same WWWsH – YUP, it is a bit tricky – JDA

          • Seeker,

            From what you wrote above “I think”, “could be” and “may have” etc. in your post. Which begs the question, do you have a place where you feel is WWWsH or even a place to start searching?

            To me it sounds that you don’t, I may be wrong, it sounds like assuming.

          • CharlieM,

            “I think” “maybe” etc. is just my attempt to be politically correct without a handful of IMO’s ~ you can read into it as ya like.
            At this stage, *assuming* is all anyone has.
            I just hope I have “read the poem” as possibly intended, and not so much the way I think it should be… that’s the whole point.
            The poem’s words can be taken / understood with different meanings and usages of the word presented. Our job is to try and simplify the correct meanings in the attempt to decipher the clues. Hopefully thinking the right thoughts in that process.

          • JDA,

            I think this all takes place in MT. So I doubt you and I have the same WWsH.. or at least, not in the same location.

          • Wow, great thread everyone! Excellent post Seeker. Clearly written, to the point, and thought provoking. (Makes me feel like I’ve just been playing Canasta. 😉 )

            Hokie

  64. A while back, a searcher posted a photo of a five-sided star they had created overlaying a map. I think it was somewhere on here – does anyone remember where I can find that? Thanks.

  65. Food for thought?

    During the 1500s the Spanish explorers were occupying and exploring various areas.
    For mineral wealth. Arizona is a prime example of how they navigated.
    Using natural formations and a little muscle they created various blazes. Some of which
    can be seen today if one knows what to look for. ( google: Searching for Spanish treasure in Arizona )
    If one does not wish to pursue a google search. Ask yourself: How do I navigate when I am driving? ( hint: it is an unconscious process. )

    As for the blaze being a shadow… It does not feel right to me. Because using a shadow implies a given time of the year. Possibly just a few days. Ya see I am blessed to be in an area where I can track the movements of the sun from month to month. And with each passing day, the position of the shadow changes that my mailbox casts.
    Now if one is inclined to pursue the path of Indiana Jones. Let’s work out the possible times of the year the chest could have been hidden in. Each state will vary due to climate. From there, a study of shadow casting may possibly narrow down days to search.
    Yeah, that is deep. But ya all ask for it. Paraphrase: Forrest did it in one afternoon.
    Roughly 4-6 hours. Does his statement include drive time?
    My thoughts as to what the blaze is? In my mind, it is a formation one can stand on and look down into a small area.

    For those with inquiring minds: fish-rocks-trona
    For some reason, this post did not like an outside link. Second attempt to post.
    HDD

    • HDD~ ‘Let’s work out the possible times of the year the chest could have been hidden in.’

      Been there, did it. Look up – at 6:10 pm.

      Have you ever pondered why fenn may have stated; no one is going to find the chest on spring break or a Sunday picnic?
      In general, spring break month is February, March or April… with a few hardcore party goers might slip n slide and stumble, into the month of may. Been there, done that too…
      As for a Sunday Picnic, which is normally held in the afternoon or prevening hours.
      Only fenn stated it was done in one afternoon.

  66. Hiya Seeker,

    Let’s break this down a bit more shall we? Looking at spring break. From February to late April,
    Snow is a real concern, making most roads impassable. Early May is the start of may have more snow depending on location. Mid to late may one would need to take spring melt and runoff. Now that leaves us with June-August. Possibly sometime in September.
    As an afterthought, Finding the chest takes work, period. To me, this means that the chest is off the beaten path of general hikers and tourists.

    Ahhh the Sunday picnic, this tells me that the chest is not hidden in a highly visited area.
    I.E. Someplace one might take the family for a day’s outing.
    The place I see in my mind’s eye is one that some with the desire to explore would go.
    Considering some of the ATF statements Forrest has made, the place may not be far from places an advent fisherman might go.
    Just some thoughts.

    • Dang laptop keyboard.
      * Early May, depending on location. May still see the snow flying.

    • ~”I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”
      “People think I sat down one night and wrote that poem. I didn’t write that poem, I crafted it,” he says. “No one is going to find that treasure chest on a Sunday afternoon picnic or over spring break.” Backpackers interveiw.

      Just a couple of comments about spring break and a sunday picnic… the others comments [if you would like to look them up, say the same]. “not” something someone is going to do on Spring Break or a Sunday picnic”

      Bad weather road closure is simply an obstacle… not a reason we “can’t”.
      Why “can’t” the poem be completed / find the treasure during this time of season or day?
      What is it we don’t understand?

      Sorry, HDD {Chad}, many seem to think the same as you; bad weather, road closures, safety factors etc.
      But there’s a difference between an obstacle, a snag, or some kinda hurdle that is random or unpredictable vs. Can’t, and not going to be able.

      • I think you’re reading way too much into that trope, Seeker. Trying to make it yield something way more specific than was intended.

        https://www.koat.com/article/full-interview-forrest-finn-dishes-on-hidden-treasure/4474384

        “This is not something I designed over spring break or summer vacation . . . .” ff

        Why not summer vacation, Seek’?

        “But I’m not looking at this weekend or spring break . . . ” ff

        Not just Sunday afternoon, but the whole dang weekend is out. So add in ‘why can’t you find it on a Saturday morning?’

        ” . . . he’s [a searcher] . . . looking at this afternoon and this weekend, I’m looking at next year, a hundred years . . . . this is not a spring break thing for me.” ff

        “I’m not thinking about spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic out looking for the treasure, I’m thinking a hundred years from now . . . ” ff

        ‘Spring break’ versus ‘next year/a hundred years’? Sounds to me like ‘casual’ versus ‘serious’ as opposed to hinting at solar time.

        AND finally –

        “Let me put this in perspective – so many people have decided they’re going to take a picnic lunch out on Sunday and go look for the treasure; or something to do over spring break. I’m looking at a hundred years down the road . . . ” ff

        Again, I don’t think he’s just secretly hinting that March-April and all afternoons are impossible times to find the treasure.

        Look at the big picture.

        Jake

        • I think you missed the point about “down the road”

          I’m not trying to convince y’all on anything. I present my case using information that has been talked about. I just present it with a different reading of the poem.

      • Agree with JAK: a date/time-based solution is a loser in my opinion. Introduces too much uncertainty. I’ve opined before that the Spring Break and Sunday afternoon quotes are possibly a tongue-in-cheek joke from Forrest: that he actually hid the chest on a Sunday afternoon on Spring Break (transition from spring to summer). How hilarious would that be?

        • I always looked at the Spring Break and Sunday afternoon quips as a reminder that this is not as easy as packing for a few days of fun in the [sun] with some buds(multiple meanings)… or what to put in the picnic basket for a spur of the moment Sunday picnic. The clues aren’t that simple.
          On another note… the weather on the summer solstice in the northern Rockies this year definitely was not very ripe for a [shadow] theory….

        • while (noOneListens) {
          keepPointingThemToTheCode++;
          }

          summer = “Warm”;
          spring break = “Spring”;
          Sunday afternoon picnic = Pic Nic railway “Station” between Church and Hawthorn;

  67. I thought lil indy got a lot of mileage.
    Evidently the shadow got her beat.
    Wait a minute, Fenn never commented on a shadow, did he?
    Groundhog Day for some.

    • Commented on a shadow? Maybe not, but he’s certainly mentioned them:

      TTOTC pg. 42 (Gypsy Magic): “The flashing flames made dancing shadows that seemed to move with the music, and there were times when I thought the girls saw me as they swirled by, but no one said anything.”

      TTOTC pg. 142 (Ode to Peggy Jean): “Today I looked up in the sky / And saw my shadow floating by.”

      TFTW pg. xiii: “That day never came for me, and my disappointment still casts a lonesome shadow across the Madison River.”

      TFTW pg. 116: (MacArthur at West Point): “The shadows are lengthening for me.”

      • Thanks Zap,
        The only one I could think of was the Madison River shadow.
        If you’ve been wise and found the shadow,
        Look quickly down
        Naa, I don’t think so.
        Even Punxsutawney Phil knows better.

        • Jake,

          Why are you filling in the shadow as the blaze? [ as you said ~If you’ve been wise and found the shadow]
          JAK also misunderstood a hill or a mountain to cast a shadow, as if that was the intent of the blaze.
          The blaze is an object on site that is used to cast the shadow.. it’s not a hard concept… try and stay up!

          The main problem I see with some of you guys who easily dismiss the idea is, you seem to want one line to explain all of a single deciphering of that line.

          That idea works well for a point to point theory [decipher a single line as a single place, and do the same with the next line and the next…] But that style reading of the poem doesn’t work for an observational theory.

          That, and the idea of how words and phrase mean as observation is needed to be understood, like; “Take it in”;
          ~take something in; include or encompass something; fully understand or absorb something heard or *seen*….

          If you [anyone] can’t grasp the notion of the words, you’ll never understand this theory.
          Such as; what IT might refer;
          ‘Begin observing where warm waters halt and look in the direction of the canyon “down”‘ because of the usage of ‘take it in’

          IF this was a simple task of point to point, the line could have read; being where warm waters halt. However, fenn placed “IT” in there. If you [anyone] don’t want to think why he did… lol… I’m fine with that.

          I didn’t create the definitions, I just try to understand the poem as a whole.
          And, I’ll go with the fenn’s comment; “I looked up words and definition of words and changed them, went back and rebooted…I’m very pleased, the results are what I wanted… it [the poem] turned out exactly like I wanted.”

          The thing I get a kick out of is; even if the shadow process is not the intent… you still dismiss the idea of observing and planning as part of the solve.
          For example; can hoB only be seen correctly from ground level? Yet, can be pickup on GE, only to never know what it is from a birds-eye view?

          Ha! This might explain why *Little Indy or ‘anyone’ else* can not get closer than the first two clues… you need to be at WWsH to locate the hoB.
          You know… where everyone seems to get stuck at; clues 3 and 4.

          • Seeker,

            Funny how you envision things, you’d better be prepared for things to be completely different than you imagine.

            I’ll agree with Ken in that…… take that show on the road and give it a whirl….

          • Charlie,

            I agree with ken as well.
            But there are a couple things needed before the trip. Like having WWsH nailed down. I have a few ideas, but nothing that is going to make me jump with the idea of; ~ *If you wear a smile to the right spot you will wear a grin going home. f

            IMO this whole solve revolves around the first clue. I don’t tend to think the more searches you put in the better chance one has, or the more time you search even make you a searcher.
            That to me sounds more like;
            *A good solve is frequently lost in a poor execution

            But there I go again; repeating ATFs.

            The one I do hang my hat on is;
            “I warned that the path would not be direct for those who had no *certainty of the location beforehand,* but sure for the one who did.

            What I think is funny, is how some can’t envision anything else…but what they hope it should be.

          • Morning Seeker.

            I like the idea you present. “Take it in”. Without realizing it I was sitting on my patio looking at the mountains observing the shadow play cast by rocks. An interesting study indeed.
            As I watched and studied various formations and how they cast their shadows. It occurred to me that the shadow may not point to the chest. It may actually cover the hiding spot!
            I am in total agreement with you regarding looking at the whole process and not a step by step process. Which I am not discounting. There may be a step by step process one has to follow to get answers from the poem its self.

            HDD

          • Chad,
            I think there’s a difference in a step by step vs. point to point process. I know that sounds strange but reading the poem as steps indicated to be done, is different than points [different locations] that need to be traveled.

            The observational theory [ for lack of a better term ] gives pause to think about what we are looking for and at. Not unlike your shadow gazing.

            Folks at the first clue may have only been looking for a ‘place to go’ rather than asking; Why am I here? Why is the first clue so important that I shouldn’t leave home without it, because I’ll have *nothing*?
            {Then again, the early searchers didn’t have a lot of ATFs to consider as a *check and balance* to their theories or process… IMO… they try to keep that process as they thought if should play-out}

            Their process seemed to take them away from the other clues, and walk by the chest. And yes, I can see why they thought this to be a point to point process… Only it lacks many things we have been told.. In part.. to plan and observe, use of imagination. They left the poem.

            When fenn answered a Q&A; in part he said; An 80 yr old is not going down and up a canyon… searchers / bloggers think this might contribute to the idea of driving NF,BTFTW or some other means of transportation.
            I simply ask, IF the poem seemed to say “take it in [go in, or move in downward direct] the canyon down” and fenn is not making two trips in and out of said canyon… why is it we feel we need to?

            Following clues can be by sight. It’s how we look at maps, right. Following doesn’t always mean we need to move physically. There might be something we need to “observe” and “plan”

            Why are folks deciphering clues correctly yet seemingly stumped at clues 3 and 4? I think it’s more than likely we are reading the poem with only one thought in mind, we must physically move through them. We create our own illusion of how the task should be done.

            But if we really look at the meanings of words [ in poem form ]… words like “Take it In” “Put In” “IT”.. even “From there” can mean; from that *time* – or relate to time in some manner… NPFTM takes on the idea of a situation… Because “place” can mean: situation; a set of circumstances in which one finds oneself.

            Fenn stated in many ways he crafted this poem, felt like an architect writing the blueprint, every word was deliberate, and he change and tweaked it for 15 years, right?

            LOL only when I mention the idea of multiple meanings and usages of words, the KiSS believers yell “over complicating” Many of which imo, a simplistic view of the poem to start with. Some have the idea that “plain English” has to be the more common usage, such as ‘take it in’ only to be a physical movement. That “it” as no real reference it’s only a word fenn threw in.
            That ‘Place’ is only a physical location and can’t mean a situation.

            Those words and phrases are just a few example of how the poem can be read with a different process in mind.
            And IF that is possible… it seem to bug some who have spent thousand of hours only thinking and hoping the poem read as they think it should. But the laughable part of that is; they don’t have a response of how it can’t be possible, other than creating names to belittle the thoughts.

            I’m here for discussion of the possibilities, the ideas behind how folks can be on site and not understand things, how the poem can be read and not hold on to a single process just because I personally think that is the must way it all unfolds.

          • Seeker,

            You said, “What I think is funny, is how some can’t envision anything else…but what they hope it should be.”

            It seems that you yourself is in this category by not envisioning any thing else, which you have portrayed for months now.

            You said to Chad, “Why are folks deciphering clues correctly yet seemingly stumped at clues 3 and 4?”

            If you look closely at the map of my theory, folks most definitely can leave the poem on those clues.

            Also you said, “Their process seemed to take them away from the other clues, and walk by the chest. And yes, I can see why they thought this to be a point to point process… Only it lacks many things we have been told.. In part.. to plan and observe, use of imagination. They left the poem.

            I’m not talking about other folks when I say, I did a huge amount of observing and planing and did use some imagination from the beginning to the end of my theory, by way of asking, “what if” and discounted some “what if’s” because those where vetted and found to be false for what ever reason by “check and balance” as you say.

            You go onto to say, “But the laughable part of that is; they don’t have a response of how it can’t be possible, other than creating names to belittle the thoughts.”

            This is Laughable by you, you only are assuming they don’t have a response to “can’t be possible”. I’ve have seen many responses about things that can’t be possible after botg.

            Your biases about your thoughts is what is preventing you from viewing or even show interest in others thoughts. There have been many times where I “do” look into what others have shared, its a big mistake not to do so. Yes we all do have different views, some folks criticize a different idea, but they don’t try to look at other views, which possibly may help in their own theories.

            I think that Biases for some folks does get in the way, it’s easy to criticize because its not their idea. I would be more careful to not include all folks, it may only apply to some.

            Just critiquing what you said as being one sided and you yourself does fit in those things that you posted to Chad.

            I’ve posted what I think are good possibilities and now that I am done with this area, because I can’t prove or disprove my theory. I am looking at other possibilities to figure out what the clues might mean in other areas of thought. I will hang onto my recent theory until I can show otherwise.

            An open mind will go a lot further than any biases one may have.

            Keep on trucking…. we shall see hopefully one way or another when the TC is found. 🙂

          • Seeker,
            The only reason why you entertain the punxsutawney theory is you like to keep a chip on every number on the roulette table.
            So, what is the monetary value of this chip between $1 and $100 on the shadow theory(s)?
            I’ll bet it’s below $20.
            I got 2 cents on it.

          • CharlieM,

            To your first point; The theory I work on at the present, is not other theories I have posted, Including the stomping method / theory. there is no “bias” in any theory have presented.
            How many of your theories /solves don’t involve stomping point to point?

            You stated; ~If you look closely at the map of my theory, folks most definitely can leave the poem on those clues.

            I have no idea of how you can leave the poem and still be correct… Ya lost me there.

            Another point you bring up; I have a simple question:
            When did you observe and plan and check n balance your solve with research-?- what were you observing and planning for?
            OK, that’s kinda two question is one.

            You said to my comment; ~This is Laughable by you, you only are assuming they don’t have a response to “can’t be possible”

            I’m not assuming anything. I have explained how the certain elements of the poem can mean something, receiving the basic replies – you over complicating, or it’s not meant that way, or in my theory it doesn’t mean that. Those are not responses to why ‘this theory’ can’t work.

            You said ~ ‘Your biases about your thoughts is what is preventing you from viewing or even show interest in others thoughts.’

            This is so dang sickening to hear, using the word “bias” as a scapegoat.
            I have discussed every aspect ever talked about in many method with many searchers… your limited knowledge of what has be said by me, during your time on the blogs, leads to a “bias” assumption.
            LOL I can even tell you who even coined the term if ya like… *we’ll just call what someone says “bias” if we don’t agree.* Yeah, that works! And the world is still flat, right?

            You followed up your comment by saying: I think that Biases for some folks does get in the way, it’s easy to criticize because its not their idea. I would be more careful to not include all folks, it may only apply to some.

            That is a fair statement. However, I’m working with the solves by searcher that have been posted for discussions for over 8 plus years [ on different blogs as well ]… not one I have seen is anything else but the basic ‘point to point solve.’
            Can you show me one that is not? {with the exceptions of two different methods i had posted years back}
            Wait… there was Briggs post. Oh! right he still had to stomp point to point. He just decoded certain words to create those points.

            As you stated near the end of your post; ~An open mind will go a lot further than any biases one may have.

            You are correct. I’m probably one of the most open ended posters blogging. And I’ll repeat what I have stated in the past; read my theories, ideas, and chew them into pieces. I want folks to find problems with them and “explain” why there could be a problem… not the excuse of; It cant mean that, idea. or it’s over complicating, or Plain English is simplistic only, idea.

            And throw that dang word “bias” in the trash… it’s a poor excuse to disagree with someone’s comments, theories, idea, methods etc. by using it… and not having a logical reasoning / response that differs from what was posted.

            Tell me WHY… it can’t. Because I always attempt to show why it [ a theory ] can work.

      • Another shadow for JDA in SB 130:
        “This life, which had been the tomb of his virtue and of his honour, is but a walking shadow; a poor player, that struts and frets his hour upon the stage, and then is heard no more …”

        • SB 76: I was just informed that Dal has recused himself from the search for reasons I think are inappropriate. It is unfair to cast a shadow across a man of his integrity. f

        • Good catch, oz10. More shadows lurking out there than I would have guessed.

          • I thought it was funny he said that after changing his mind about using Dals’ shadow over the Madison for the TFTW cover photo.

    • Blaze away and you will find it.
      You will see many blazes with this method but when you eat, they go away.

  68. OK, I’ll concede that the blaze, as an object, MAY cast a shadow (assuming it isn’t in the wood). And y’all think that it will point to the blaze. (if you find the blaze, the distance to the treasure will be obvious (as long as the sun is shining and it’s the right time and it’s the right day of the year).

    I have a few questions (maybe answered above, but if so I missed them)

    Where did he imply that you could not find the treasure on a cloudy day or at night?
    How can (only) a good map (+ the poem and ttoc) help with where the shadow was or will be on some arbitrary date/time? (definitely does not fall into the “knowledge of geography” category)

    Also, the shadow idea is a cheap Hollywood trick, and I give Forrest more credit than that for his 15 year architected/wordsmithed/crafted poem.

    mBG

  69. I wonder if it is the cast shadow you should be looking for…. or what you can see in a shadow that you can’t see in bright light. So I’ll ask the trout fisherman: is it hard to see a fish or a chalk-bottom, or waving grasses, or something else that is important if sunlight is glinting off the surface? Is an overcast day a better day for fishing? If the fisherman stands in a shadowed area, are fish less likely to see him & more likely to bite? How is a shadow useful?

    • OS2 – On “Shadowcasting” and “Flywater” and “A River Runs Through It”, which “IT” does, in the Poem, in my solve:

      https://www.goodreads.com/book/show/1502128.Shadowcasting

      “IT’S” all about the fly fishing, IMO; why is the hide-y spot special to Forrest? Why are the Firehole, Gibbon, and, especially, the Madison, special to Forrest?

      I agree. Youth should always be wasted on the young. I am not being ‘flippant’ or ‘smooth’, Forrest. But maybe you were in that statement?

      Giggles.

      • OS2 – See also the archaic meaning::

        flippant > glib > smooth > slippery

        Thank you, Merriam-Webster!

        Don’t fall, while riding that backwardS bike.Because then you will be up close and personal with my S-mile trail ‘blaze’! And make sure your waders are belted tight, while crossing “IT” in ‘water high’. I was lucky to be wearing lug-soled wading boots with studs in my size, which my fly fishing librarian friend happened to purchase just weeks before. Those small, smooth pebbles, on the river bottom, like in Dal’s pic of the Madison on the TFTW cover with Forrest’s shadow pic, were certainly ‘slippery’. It was good to have a ‘Sunday afternoon picnic’ at our campsite at Baker’S Hole Campground, after our ‘effort worth the cold’ crossing.

        All IMO. Still giggling. Like Forrest was, childlike, while maybe imitating, “The Shadow”, of radio show and ‘pulps’ fame, behind that gifted blanket at Fennboree.

        Discuss.

      • Seeker – Or, ‘flip•ant’?:

        Seeing if I can make or buy a fly fishing ant pattern, to fish the Big Wood River or Silver Creek here. Do ants go up a tree trunk clockwise or counter-clockwise in the Northern hemisphere?

        Just kidding, Dal. Keep your belt tight on your waders, everyone! Or you could have a flip•pant.

        Giggles. I miss Goofy.

  70. I agree with you, OS2, it’s the play of shadows that affects what you see…just like the gloss on the pages of TTOTC…just like a photograph can reveal what is not seen in real time. Maybe that’s why we need a flashlight and a sandwich.

  71. Hi guys,
    Forget about the shadow and the time associated with the blaze. The blaze is not that important in my solve, and is just a geological feature. Actually I would like to suggest that we even totally forget about finding the blaze itself. If you follow the NPFTM to the “END”, you’ll see the blaze if you open your eyes wide. I know my idea is a rather radical one, but I think it’s a practical one at the same time.
    — MK

    • MajinKing,

      I agree with one point about not worrying about the blaze until the clue previous to the blaze is found. I’m sure that some folks think what the blaze is in their mind, more than likely will be completely different than what the blaze truly is.

      Just Say’n

    • MK: “I would like to suggest that we even totally forget about finding the blaze itself.”

      So, you can see the blaze when your eyes are wide open but you suggest we totally forget about it.
      Not practical unless you’re the only one that can see it.

    • Which brings us full circle to the problem with theory that the blaze is the last clue. What sorts of blazes are large enough that they aren’t “impossible to remove” but it “isn’t feasible to try,” are natural (not man-made), and yet can’t be seen on Google Earth because GE “doesn’t go down far enough”?

      • Sidebar:

        “There’s not a picture of the treasure chest on Google Earth . . . . because Google Earth doesn’t go down far enough” (ff 2Nov13)

        but I never heard that phrase applied to the blaze as well.

        Source, or paraphrase?

        • In part; Six Questions with Forrest Fenn;

          …It helps to know something about Rocky Mountain geography when making plans to search for my treasure. Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve. Google Earth cannot help with the last clue.

          Just another ATF that might relate.

      • Zap,

        The statement of GE was a reference to the hiding place of the chest.

        Whether or not the blaze can be seen using GE is still up in the air. To conclude it can or can not be seen, IMO is folly. It just goes around and around until the chest can be found.

        • I would like to add, a trail, trees and water don’t face in any direction except for up. Creeks, rivers, lakes and trails wouldn’t be feasible to try and remove.

          Food for thought.

      • This quote: “Google Earth cannot help with the last clue.”

        If the blaze is the last clue, then Google Earth cannot help with the blaze.

        • Do people really believe that the 13th line, ”if you’ve been wise and found the blaze”, is the last clue in a 24 line cryptic poem? I mean we get clear instructions on an action directly after finding it.

          And if we do think that just perhaps the next 11 lines contain a valuable clue or two, then the blaze can not be the last clue as they are contiguous.

          So I guess that presents an interesting idea of its own. If the blaze is not the last clue and google earth can help with all except the last clue, then does that suggest that the blaze can be seen from GE?

          • Doubla a: I brought up the point because I think a majority of searchers DO believe the blaze is the last clue. I do not, due to the combination of ATFs that Forrest has provided regarding GE and the implausibility of removing the blaze, and the large fraction of poem remaining after the word “cease.”

        • Yet, Zap,

          Do we know the last clue is a physical clue, or a direction / instruction?

          But lets play with your thoughts of an object that is not “impossible to remove” but it “isn’t feasible to try,” { the blaze as the last clue, idea }

          We don’t have much contents to know how it can be removed… but lets say physically by a searcher is what was meant, for the discussion.
          The first thing that come to mind [ for any size ] is removal of the critical part of any object.
          For example only; a statue of a human with a [ [IDK] say a sword or something, that point so a spot. If the critical ‘piece is removed, is that the same as not feasible to remove?

          However, I’m of the assumption the “last clue” is not a physical item, object [ be it the blaze or not ] but an instruction.

        • Zap,

          I’m curious about ~the large fraction of poem remaining after the word “cease.”~ What is the large fraction that you are referring?

          Does that fraction have anything to do with, not important, not needed, etc. or is it on value as being needed?

          Just Say’n

        • CharlieM:

          “What is the large fraction that you are referring?”

          5/12ths of the lines. 72 words. Over 43% of the poem.

          “There are a few words that are not useful in finding the treasure, Phil, but is is risky to discount any of them.”

          In my book, “a few” is much, much less than 72. Hand-waving away 72 words as not containing information useful for finding the treasure isn’t risky, it’s foolish. Folks may quibble that there are still hints in those final 10 lines, but I think it’s foolhardy to believe there are no clues after “Look quickly down, your quest to cease.”

          • Zap… 25 of the words in Fenn’s poem precede the first clue. That equates to 15% or so. I absolutely agree that the entire poem needs to be understood to be successful… so what does that seem to imply about those words leading up to the first clue? I do not think they are useless. Doesn’t it also seem plausible that if Fenn says the clues must be followed in order and that they are contiguous/continuous/consecutive… that they are interpreted from the poem in that fashion? With the comments he has offered about finding the blaze and distance to the treasure and that’s correct Philly … it appears that the blaze is the end of the quest… but perhaps there is some work to do(not a big job)??

          • Zap, ~ Hand waving aways… words… isn’t risky, it’s foolish.
            I can’t agree more.
            You hit on a ‘mental block’ I think some have created.

            We hear fenn say a clue is what gets us closer and a hint helps with the clues. Another ways of saying it is; a piece of information is a clue for a clue, idea.
            [lol – because fenn calls everything a clue..even the useless clues he handed out on the today show] Unless it is considered an eliminating factor – a clue.

            We are told all the information to find the chest is in the poem, right? The book can help as well… with the added idea; if we know what to look for.

            This is where I agree with your assessment. Dismissing anything in the poem is foolish.

            The point I’m trying to make is, for example;
            Why can’t “you’re effort be will be worth the cold” relate to the idea of “no place for the meek” how it might be deciphered / translated to be, or any other previous or past line we think might is not an actual clue?
            Just because it 10 lines away doesn’t mean that piece of information can’t relate to something already mentioned.

            !! ” **IMO** ” !! ~ the foolish notion ‘everything’ in the poem ‘must’ be in a specific order, make absolutely no sense., and/or, if it doesn’t land within the clue’s order, it must be fluffinutter.

            As ken stated ~’I absolutely agree that the entire poem needs to be understood to be successful… so what does that seem to imply about those words leading up to the first clue? I do not think they are useless.’

            Is it so far fetch that [ again for example ] “And hints of riches new and old” can relate to the same line in stanza 6 ~ YEWBWTC, as well as, to stanza 3 ~ a clue of FTINPFTM?

            Is this line of thinking breaking the rule idea; the “clues” need to be followed in consecutive order?

            Here is another thought.**
            WhatIF the clues stanzas are collectively in consecutive order { three stanzas – 2 3 4,{ as they appear to be by many }
            And
            The other remaining three stanzas *mimic* the clues stanzas… only written differently, and not in consecutive order?

            An example might be;
            Stanza three [ a clue stanza ]
            Stanza six mimic stanza, only told slightly different… or stanza five or stanza one.

            Hints or Clues doesn’t matter how we label them.. dismissing them [information in the poem] as fluffinutter [or non-important, not needed], doesn’t seem to be analyzing the poem’s information at all.

            Food for thought…………..
            Then again, I’m sure someone will yell out… “over complicating. KiSS is the method of analyzing, and it has to be simplistic”

          • I agree with much of what you posted here, Seek’, and while I’m sure some might not, I think most would also agree with the gist of it.

            But I gotta tell you, when you set up and argue with strawmen like this

            **** *** *** ****
            “Then again, I’m sure someone will yell out… ‘over complicating. KiSS is the method of analyzing, and it has to be simplistic’ ”
            *** **** *** ****

            to pre-characterize and deflect any disagreement, it no longer sounds like discussion, or even legitimate argument. It sounds more like you’re running for office.

            Jake

          • Why do you think I’ve called him a politician for years?
            I did think what he said was simple and agree as well.

          • Hi Ken:

            “25 of the words in Fenn’s poem precede the first clue. That equates to 15% or so. I absolutely agree that the entire poem needs to be understood to be successful… so what does that seem to imply about those words leading up to the first clue? I do not think they are useless.”

            Preaching to the choir. The first stanza is essential in my opinion; without it, I think it’s impossible to determine the precise location of WWWH.

            “Doesn’t it also seem plausible that if Fenn says the clues must be followed in order and that they are contiguous/continuous/consecutive… that they are interpreted from the poem in that fashion?”

            Very much so.

            “With the comments he has offered about finding the blaze and distance to the treasure and that’s correct Philly … it appears that the blaze is the end of the quest… but perhaps there is some work to do(not a big job)??”

            The strongest argument for the blaze being the final geographic waypoint to finding the treasure is that the answer to “How far is the chest located from the blaze?” will be “obvious.” Co-located (zero) would qualify as obvious. But how great could the separation be before the answer is no longer “obvious”? 12 feet? 20 feet? You can see where I’m going with this. At what distance away does the blaze cease to be sufficient to reliably locate the treasure?

            We have some guidance on this. “Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a ‘correct solve’ unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. Otherwise you have a ‘general solve.’ What do you think? f”

            Sounds to me that if the blaze can’t reliably navigate you to within several steps of the treasure chest, then it can’t be the final clue.

          • I don’t pay attention those, Ken.
            Not until it becomes too fuzzy and rotted to bother with.
            Others may throw away perfectly good things out before their time… while some only chew the same thing over and over ( 9 years running ).

            What can I say; I like a verity, and don’t wasting things that are still good.

            Reminds me of something someone said. What was it? Oh! right… A good solve is frequently lost in a poor execution.

            Maybe, just maybe, it’s clue’s 3 and 4 process, in many solves [if not all], that have gone stale.

          • Zap…Yes, just verbalizing it for others to think about in simple terms. The last part you wrote seems to be absent from many conversations… Just exactly how far is the chest from the blaze? That is the reason for my comment about perhaps a bit of work to do to actually retrieve the chest. If a searcher has found it’s location by way of the blaze… do folks really believe that they are going to just pick it[the chest] up and retreat? Or… are there some instructions to aid in the retrieval…thus utilizing some more info from the poem[non-discarded words]? expiration date/best used by 9/1/17

          • Hi Seeker: “Why can’t “you’re effort be will be worth the cold” relate to the idea of “no place for the meek” how it might be deciphered / translated to be, or any other previous or past line we think might is not an actual clue?”

            I’m fine with hints (as Forrest has defined them) being in any order in the poem — assuming there are hints there at all (which Forrest has yet to confirm, but I think it’s a pretty safe bet). And actually the word “order” is no longer applicable if a hint is buried within the structure of the poem (for instance vertically, spanning multiple poem lines). Forrest has already admitted the book hints are not organized consecutively, so even though we don’t know for sure that the poem contains “hints,” following that example for the poem is probably “good savvy” in the absence of any other guidance.

            “Here is another thought. What IF the clues stanzas are collectively in consecutive order { three stanzas – 2 3 4,{ as they appear to be by many }
            And
            The other remaining three stanzas *mimic* the clues stanzas… only written differently, and not in consecutive order?”

            I’m good with all that, but I’d be even more permissive: why not allow hints in all 6 stanzas? Surely an “architect” could weave in hints wherever he wanted.

          • Jake: suppose the blaze is huge, and the treasure’s location is somewhere within its geographic boundary. The distance of the chest from the blaze is then 0, but it’s by no means “Game over.”

          • I don’t think the blaze is huge but the rock may be.
            You may be able to see the rock outcropping but not the blaze. The blaze must be in relative size to a 10″ x 10″ x 6″ box.

            The blaze cannot be huge horizontally unless it narrows down to a point at the bottom where it points to the chest.
            The baze can be huge vertically but needs to be no more than 20 ft wide or around there otherwise it will not be obvious.

            If you’ve been wise and FOUND the blaze.
            FOUND – FOUNDation
            Foundations are made from a solid rock or cement but in this case I would say rock and the blaze is something that stands out on this rock.

          • Jak… ~’to pre-characterize and deflect any disagreement, it no longer sounds like discussion, or even legitimate argument. It sounds more like you’re running for office.’

            I’m a bit surprised you kinda single me out on the this… I mean, you don’t see others doing the same without any to add to the conversation at all?
            But I’m a big boy…
            I git the barking and jabs and innuendos. I can stand toe to toe with the best of them… However

            I always try to explain why/how something is plausible or not, and not come back with fortune cook posting, as “over complicating” and not an explanation for that comment.
            So I figured I might as well nip a poor non-explained comment in the butt… because they are more and more frequent and boring… and might be the reason some don’t post, or post as often as they use to.

            I’m just trying to save some time.
            And hope others would actually “discuss” present “arguments” for or against, their thoughts to WHY it might not be plausible.

            Now, if ya like, up thread I gave CharlieM the basics of my full theory.
            Seeker on July 11, 2019 at 6:10 pm said:
            Have a gander at it, and lets have a discussion about it.
            But if you’re more concerned about my last comment you mentioned… might you want to address all involved?

          • Zap,
            I can see how hints can be within, what is considered a clue or a the clue’s section in the poem.
            For example;
            “Begin IT where warm waters halt”… Ok lets say IT is an idea of something. LOL I don’t know if we call it a hint or just part of a clues, but lets continue; “And take it in the canyon down.”

            Ok, before we even try deciphering what a clue refers to, don’t we need to understand what is being relayed, or how it’s being relayed? Understanding the interpretation of the poem..

            So should “take it in” mean; something seen… does IT in the prior line become something deciphered / more specific? such as ~ *begin observing where warm waters halt?* Or is that more a hint-?- and WWsH is a clue “reference”?
            The real question is; Does it matter as long as we understand how the poem may have been designed to read it this way?

            Halo’s Q&A was brilliant as far as I’m concerned. fenn’s answer seems to imply he wasn’t worried about hints or clues or how many, until the poem was done… he seemed to want to get “all the information to find the chest” within the poem… Then and only then did he “count” what seems to be needed actual “clues” that move us “forward” to the goal.

            So sure, hints could be splatter all through the 24 lines in the poem. And that has been my point, for a long time, when I have asked; How many clues give us an answer?
            In retrospect I should have asked; How many ‘pieces of information’ can explain how a single portion of the poem can be read, as a clue?… as fenn might have intended the blueprint to unfold? [ for clarification].
            But wording the question that way is almost impossible to answer.

            I have said, I think the poem is being read wrong [ that statement reflects the solves many have posted and a basic single method of reading the poem ]
            Yet out of all those theories / solves… virtually everyone seems to stuck at clues 3 and 4 [ even fenn has stated as much ]
            What is the common denominator to those “posted” solve? [ because that is all we have to go on ]. They all involve a point to point method. And *almost* all have nine point, generally.

            Why are many [ self included in the beginning of this challenge ] seemingly forcing nine point to be physical places only?
            A clue is not always a physical place… it can be a piece of evidence or information [such as instruction, a guide, an indicator, how to proceed with something etc.]

            In all honesty; I see only 4 physical places told of. WWsH, a canyon [ used for a directional purpose, HoB, and the blaze… Then again, I can also see hoB as the blaze. That knocks it down to three physical location. I think “JUST HLnWH refer to WWsH…And it all depends on how the poem is read with what process / method is tried.

            LOL I had one idea that all clues reference were of the past up to the blaze. [ yet physical places ] Only fenn decided to kill that idea with the Q&A, there are many WWsH in the RM’s and nearly all are N.of SF.
            Oh well… so much for that theory.

          • Jake ~’The blaze must be in relative size to a 10″ x 10″ x 6″ box.’

            Why-?- “must” it be in relative size?

            Can’t the blaze be [ for example ] the remains of a petrified tree [ it meet your idea of a rock and the ‘foundation’ of a tree that once was, and something that has stood the test of time ] Yet the remains of the tree could be 10′ or more tall.

            I guess the question should be, what is relative in size to you?

          • As I stated above Seeker: “The baze can be huge vertically but needs to be no more than 20 ft wide or around there otherwise it will not be obvious.”

            My statement covers the petrified tree and the obvious.
            The word “obvious” tells us it’s not huge.

          • OK Jake,

            So relative to a 10″ object can be a 20′ object… Got It.

            Pardon me for a moment. I need to call Funk & Wagnells dictionary department and explain to them what proportional and comparison means so they can correct what relative means.
            Unless your using Einstein theory in physics, and relative means of the same time and space.

            Just out of curiosity you said; “the blaze is something that stands out on this rock.’
            So the rock can be as big as a mountain [ more or less ] but the blaze on it can’t be any more than 20″ wide… right?

            You also said; ‘As I stated above Seeker: “The baze can be huge vertically but needs to be no more than 20 ft wide or around there otherwise it will not be obvious.”’

            Ok but you also said; find the blaze, game over.

            Would than mean the blaze [ mark on the rock] being 20′ wide and possibly taller than that [or huge is some manner] to be the last clue? and GE wouldn’t be of no help for the last clue?

            A clue that could be more than 400 sq feet… the size of an average garage.

            I’m I getting this right?
            And a 20′ by 20′ garage is relative, proportional, comparable to a 10″ sq box 5” tall.

            Great, thanks for the clarification… I was a bit confused for a minute.

          • 20 ft (wide not tall) might be pushing the limits some. I would like the blaze to be smaller, that way when you look quickly down it will be obvious and you won’t have to search a 20 ft area which may not be obvious.

            I think maybe a foot wide to 5 ft wide would work better considering the poem and his ATF’s. The proportions would be completely wrong for a 10″ box to be hiding under a blaze the size of a mountain.

            Yes, I think the blaze cannot be seen on GE but the foundation or rock maybe. But then again the blaze might just be a rock outcropping 5 ft x 5 ft or something small that cannot be seen using GE.

            Yes, I put all my chips I have left on the blaze as definitely being the last clue without a doubt so if you find it, not a big job to find the chest. Game over.

            I’m just giving a max size the blaze may be and the chest resides at it’s base or under it.

            Side note: When Fenn said there a billion blazes out there, he was probably referring to his other comments where he said the blaze could be a scar on a rock, white streak, tree marking etc….

          • Jake,

            You brought up a good point about the blaze… how many through out the RM’s.. examples of a blaze etc. [ATFs from fenn]
            The idea of a blaze [seemingly] is something that stands out.

            I have been thinking about those ATF’s and how it supposed to be difficult to find the blaze/chest and seemingly only accomplished by following the clues.

            It kinda begs the question IF searcher where 500′ and 200′ from the chest and the blaze might be within sight of the hide spot, to make the idea of the distance from the blaze and the chest, obvious.
            What kinda area would block the view of the blaze, at 200′ if the blaze is near?

            Better yet… how far away is HLnWH from said blaze?
            It’s hard to fathom how searcher in search mode are looking for anything and everything along a path and not find something that stands out [ like what your looking for.. a mark of some kind ].

            Unless that “mark” or something that stands out is, much closer to WWsH and is simply over-looked it, because of the thought; it’s apparently too early to be looking for “the” blaze… in the poem. Especially if they feel they the need to travel to 8 more clue’s different locations.

          • Seeker: “What kinda area would block the view of the blaze, at 200′ if the blaze is near?”

            There are many factors why they couldn’t see or comprehend the blaze. Maybe they weren’t close enough or there are trees in the way or the landscape wouldn’t’ let them view it.
            Could be they were preoccupied with other things….

            “how far away is HLnWH from said blaze”
            The questions you ask, we cannot know the definitive answer and Fenn might know.

            I don’t think the blaze is close to WWWH. If it is, then the treasure would likely be found by now and why all the other clues in between?

          • Jake and/or Seeker;

            “What kinda area would block the view of the blaze, at 200′ if the blaze is near?”

            Let’s say that the blaze is on the west side of a knoll. If one were on the east side – looking west they would never see the blaze because the knoll, on which the blaze is to be found, is blocking the view. – That’s one way.

            “how far away is HLnWH from said blaze – For me, HL is 100′ away. For WH – quite a bit closer than that. Others will probably be quite different – How about for you Jake? JDA

          • JDA,
            I know whenever you post your opinion it’s about your solve and your area and not about the whole.
            Especially when you give specific measurements.

          • At least I am willing to disclose some things about my solve and area. You didn’t answer my question – as usual. You have a knack for putting down other searchers and/or their views, but seldom share anything about your solve – other than BS – JMO – JDA

          • JDA: ” You have a knack for putting down other searchers and/or their views, but seldom share anything about your solve”

            Now I know you got one marble left rolling around in your head. You must have me confused with your own non sharing agenda where you only post the state WY.
            I have given locations and directions of 8 of my clues and other places clues many times while you even commented on them.

            I was just pointing out a fact of what you do and when someones got you pegged you strike back in defiance with BS.

          • Jake;

            Of course when I reply it reflects my solve and my location – when possible without giving too much away. I certainly am not going to talk about your solve or location, since I have never been to that area. It is the snideness of your remarks that I am talking about. Always a condescending tone – or at least that is what I read. Others may not agree. JDA

          • When you post misinformation or even worse, the complete opposite information about a searcher here as you did, that is completely unacceptable and illogical to why except to make that poster look bad.
            I posted fact and you eventually admitted it, I already knew and then you flipped it with fake news to make it look like I was wrong and you were right but the facts speak for themselves.

            Anyway, the Q by Seeker was a generalized Q and not about anyone’s direct solve if you can understand that.

          • And what it comes down to with some people here is they think everything is about them and their solve. Whether its a scrapbook, F gets mail, vignettes, books, generalized comments or questions by others, it all leads back to them even when the content has nothing to do with them and their solve.
            Have a good night.

          • Jake – grab a fat Ora Mae Special and read some of my complex worthlessness instead. It’ll make better sense than the fussiness. You taught me that.

        • Jake;

          If you do not know what in the blazes the blaze is, how and why conjecture about it’s size? Seems like a lot of wasted energy to me. Forrest listed a slew of things that it could be:

          “I have received a few hundred emails from searchers who are sure they know what the blaze is. Ideas range from a mark on a tree, a rock, a sign, a fire, the side of a bluff, a waterfall, a spot on the head of a horse, a rainbow, and even a live owl that flew away when it was approached.” f

          Forrest didn’t dispute that any of these COULD be the blaze – and almost all are much smaller than what you are saying that it should be. On the other-hand, the blaze could be gigantic. It could be a cliff face that was 150′ tall and 500′ wide. Sure, that would be a lot of area to have to search, but maybe there are other clues after “Look quickly down” that would limit your search area. Maybe Stanza #4, 5 or 6 have clues that limit your search area. Why put limits on the unknown Jake? Just a suggestion – JDA

          • “gigantic”
            “a cliff face that was 150′ tall and 500′ wide”
            I think not.
            I remember when you thought the blaze was multiple objects. Talk about wasted time and energy.

          • JDA, I think that Forrest gave us some hint about blaze when he said: “If you are in the right spot something you probably haven’t thought about should be obvious to you.” Maybe the right spot is very small area (around 12 feet in diameter) and when some real searcher (not just accidental hiker/tourist) enter this spot he/she will immediately recognize the blaze.
            I have some ideas about the object that Forrest coded under name “the blaze” but I think it’s useless to add more fantasies here. IMO but correct location of the hoB is a first step to success.

          • You could well be right Andy S. But then again, what about the Go with certainty quote. How can you go with certainty if you will only recognize something on site? Interesting enigma – JDA

          • Well, Forrest said: “If you can find it, you can have it. I warned the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”
            IMO, he said it about location but not about knowing what is the blaze. If you know what is the hoB you are definitely know where to go. When you are there you need to start search for the blaze. Most likely this object is not visible from 200 feet distance (all searchers have binoculars to see all details at long distance). Forrest said about 12 feet so I think that this of distance when wise searcher will recognize the blaze. Maybe it is obscured by trees (in the wood) – explained why TC could be scorched in a forest fire.
            Anyway I will concentrate my efforts on exploration of my below the hoB area. Unfortunately, I can’t share with other searchers where this area and what is hoB (maybe because of the same reason as you JDA refuse to share your hoB). If this hoB is real (i.e. TC will be found there) I will personally admit that Forrest imagination is enormous.

  72. “The clues will lead you to the treasure and whether it’s buried or not, you can find it if you can find the blaze as a result of starting with the first clue. That’s what you have to do.”

    Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help? f

    I agree that possibly the latter quote implies that “given later clues” the answer to you question will be obvious.

    so, we have “you can find it if you find the blaze” and (loosely) the distance will be obvious, and GE can’t help with the last clue.

    I guess you could conclude that “look quickly down” is actually the last clue.

    mBG

  73. Here is an example of what i believe to be the BLAZE , ok , lets say the searcher was walking from NPUYC towards HL and WH , and now the searcher is walking through HL and WH . [ i think FF said you could not see chest from GE , did not say you could not see the BLAZE from GE ] ok , searcher looks UP AHEAD and see`s the empire state building and think`s that has to be the BLAZE , so the searcher walk`s up to it and LOOKS QUICKLY DOWN , and there is the CHEST . so here is the point , if the BLAZE is something so big how can a searcher look down and find the chest when he could be standing at one of a thousand places around this BLAZE. [ keep in mind that this BLAZE could be seen from N S E or W ] well , because the CLUE`S brought the searcher to THAT SPECIAL SPOT . if the seardher looks down at the correct SPOT , not place. oh i know , that`s just my opinion

  74. FENN: Well, Richard Weatherall discovered Mesa Verde. If my story is correct, he was sitting up on the bluff there in the trees, took a nap, and when he woke up, the sun, the shadows had changed and he looked across there was Mesa Verde. He was flabbergasted because he had never seen it before. He worked around that part of the country. Richard Eeds show (2015).

    In that case the shadow wasn’t pointing to the treasure but obstructing the view.

  75. Good morning all.

    Last night as time permitted I allowed my thoughts free rein and they focused on the blaze.

    Considering that Forrest was a surveyor at one time and he hinted that if one knows the coordinates of the chest they would go right too it.

    Thinking out loud here, I realize that one may need a compass, a watch, and a sextant.
    These items are for finding ones location while at land and sea.
    Time for some deep thinking. ” How do these items fit into the chase? ”
    Well, the way I see it the poem has a nautical theme to it. Rolling some of the ATF’s around in my head seems to support this idea.

    Let’s consider how a sextant is used; One uses a compass to find direction. North, east, south, west. In order to locate the sun and general direction of travel. The sextant is used to figure out longitude and latitude. The watch used to figure out the precise location.
    How does this fit into the blaze? Use of the sextant and the sun.
    I leave it up to you all to find how this may fit into a solve.

    HDD

    • HDD, ~’he hinted that if one knows the coordinates of the chest they would go right too it.’

      Your tools are only good IF we have coordinates to work with. That would mean that coordinates are within the poem… right?
      That would mean, numbers need to be translated by some means of the poem. Counting, or some kinda conversion.
      Great thought, and others have gone through many scenarios for just that thought… self includes.

      But let me ask this; Can we actually know exactly the coordinate that might be built into the poem and dismiss the idea of needed the first clue or we have nothing to go in, line of thinking?
      I would think IF coordinates can be retrieved from poem… those numbers must start with the first clue, or at the first line in the second stanza… right?

      Just thinking out loud about your idea.

      Fenn also said IF you know where the chest is a medal detector could help [ or something like that ] Why would we need one IF we know where the chest is, line of thinking.
      Could his comment be similar? The idea of Knowing?

      For me, it doesn’t make sense we have to follow clues IF coordinates are present in the poem. Why tell us there are 9 clues for deciphering?
      I guess… if we break the Coordinates down; minutes and seconds vs. decimals… we could have three section for lat. and three long. But that’s only six clues… where does the other three leave us?

      I trying to follow this idea… but I personally don’t see it.

      • Seeker,
        What makes you think that:
        1) Coordinates are imbedded in the poem rather than somewhere else?
        2) Any such coordinates refer to the Treasure itself rather than to a particular poem clue?
        3) These coordinates refer to latitude/longitude degrees rather than some other system?

        Just food for thought.

        • McKendree,

          Should all the information to find the chest be in the poem.. where else would those number be located?
          Regardless of degrees or second and minutes.
          As to your #2; HDD used ‘ if one knows the coordinates of the chest..’ I just went with what he was talking about. But if coordinates are for another clue… would you agree they must be for the first clue then?
          Any other clue would make WWsH obsolete, right?

          • Seeker,

            Where else could numbers be found? How about one of Fenn’s books.

            Be careful about saying “regardless of degrees or seconds or minutes”. This could be critical, if you are of the opinion that coordinates are involved in the Solve. I am not yet convinced that they are but there are some strange numeric coincidences found in Forrest’s writings outside the poem.

            As to whether coordinates involve another clue, I do not agree that they should be for the first clue. Did you not yourself post in 2018: “Q&A / interview ~ ‘If you knew what hoB is why would you be concerned about WWWH?’ {reverse engineering question}
            And… ‘If I told you what hoB is you’d go right to the chest’ { recorded interview }.” This would not make WWWsH obsolete, as you state but it could make it irrelevant.

          • McKendree,

            We have been told if we don’t have the first clue, don’t go. If we don’t have the first clue we have “nothing”

            These statements from fenn are very direct… So I have to ask myself, to keep those comments honest as well as the comment; If you knew what hoB is why would you be concerned about WWWH?’ {reverse engineering question} How can it work?

            The first thing that pops in my head is, can we actually ‘know’ hoB without the first clue solved?

            I mean, fenn repeats about having the first clue is a must… even implies searchers with the poem and a map [ USA Rm’s ] can not get closer than the first two clues.
            Sure, sure, there have been discussion about why, for that comment.
            But it seems the most logical answer might be because we need to be at WWsH to see, find, locate hoB [for some reason] Just for the simple fact fenn tells us we need the first clue, or don’t go… we have nothing.

            For me personally, any coordinates found [ regardless of the poem or the book, or from anywhere ] should it be anything other than WWsH… those repeated statements of first clue would be misleading at best, if not an outright lie.

            There is one option in my mind for the use of coordinates [ and trust me I have looked at the poem in many different ways for them and how they might work in a theory ] .They would place a searcher in the general area of the clues [ the location for the hunt, idea. ~ The certainty of the location beforehand, line of thinking].
            Not unlike some theories have WhY as the state of WY or New and Old as NM etc.
            Only, a set of coordinates places you in a much smaller area for a search of the clues.

            For coordinates to be more specific… I wouldn’t think they would be of, let say the blaze. lol It makes the prior clues “irrelevant” right?

            Some have suggest that coordinates can give up the blaze, revolve a solve around that idea… because of a comment; in part; “walk right to the chest.” Seemingly thinking we have a shortcut idea or skipping some clues. Yet, fenn tells us he followed the clues when he hid the chest. Why would he if a set of coordinates tells of a later clues?

            Follow, regardless of a physical movement or understanding what is seen, doesn’t mean walking by or in the area of the clues. Especially if those clue become inconsequential because of a later clue’s known coordinates [ if true ].

            I have no doubt WWsH is very relevant. The man who created the clues says we need it.
            Coordinates, if there is any, would have to be of that clue or a location to discover where the clues are in an area. [ kinda the idea they plop us in Madison county or a location 8.25 miles N. of SF or at the Denver Museum…]

            Now to the book{s}. To have information like coordinates in a later book is a hard pill to swallow. That means, anyone with the first book [ that contained the poem and the challenge to find the trove ] and for 3 plus years of searching… was up that famous creek with no paddle.

            We do have this comment / Q&A to think about as well;
            Q~ Is it an advantage to buy The Thrill of the Chase and Too Far to Walk?
            A~ There are hints in my TTOTC book that can help solve the clues in the poem.

            Why not include any book{s} when directly asked about it-?- IF there was any advantage to having that / those other books?

          • Seeker – Could you please cite where Forrest used “nothing” in relation to the first clue in the Poem?:

            “I think the problem that searchers make is that they don’t dwell long enough on the first clue. If you can’t find the first clue, you don’t have anything.”

            Then I can post a link about Shakespeare’s bawdy, tacit references to ‘nothing’, in his plays; like in the title, “Much Ado About Nothing”. But Dal will probably delete it. Blushing. And giggling.

          • Lisa,

            There are many comments about the first clues… nailed down, don’t dwell, don’t have anything, have nothing, don’t have it stay home…

            I don’t keep log of where the quote came from… many times they are on audio and I simple write what was stated.
            But… your quote state; “If you can’t find the first clue, you don’t have anything.”
            Isn’t that enough and/or the same as have nothing, since both phrases carry the same meaning?
            fenn’s phrasing changes from Q&A to interviews to book signings etc. I look at/for the overall factors of those related answers.
            Not unlike fenn using searchers, people, others, some, when talking about the first clues and who [searchers] had deciphered them.
            Example of a quote fenn; “People figure the first couple of clues…” People means searchers, right?

            However, If I happen to come across the ‘exact place or situation’ the quote came from, I’ll pass it on.

          • Hi Seeker: you asked McKendree “can we actually ‘know’ hoB without the first clue solved?”

            Absolutely not, in my opinion. Forrest has made it clear that he doesn’t believe the clues can be solved out of order.

            “But it seems the most logical answer might be because we need to be at WWsH to see, find, locate hoB [for some reason] Just for the simple fact fenn tells us we need the first clue, or don’t go… we have nothing.”

            Again IMO, the reason that HoB cannot be solved in isolation is that its identity is tied by proximity to that of WWWH. It’s like the 10 billion blazes comment — it can’t be solved without geographic context. In each case, that context is provided by the successful solution of preceding clues.

            The reverse-engineering of WWWH from HoB business is nothing but a hypothetical distraction: you can’t solve HoB without having first solved WWWH, so the point is moot. Reminds me of Forrest’s statement to Philly: “If you can find a fish already on your hook you needn’t go fishing, right?”

          • Zap… Do you believe that the blaze can be predetermined? Even though we know that we must solve the preceding clues to get there… are you inclined to believe that a correct solve will reveal what to look for?

          • Hi Ken: yes, I do. I figure if I can’t identify Forrest’s blaze before leaving home, then there is no way I can have a “correct solve” that allows me to knowingly walk to within several steps of the treasure. My feeling of necessity in solving the blaze before BOTG is bolstered by the Lackman interview comment:

            Jon: “How much progress can be made by someone just thinking and searching the Internet from home? (Another way of saying this: How many clues can only be decoded in situ?)”

            FF: “All of them, in theory, but not likely in practice. A searcher must go to the site to find the treasure.”

            I can’t see how all of the clues could be solved — even theoretically — if solving the last clue (or really any clue) depends on seeing something that can only happen in person.

          • Zap…That’s what I thought…and I believe I may have asked you that last year?. I agree… there are a few Fenn comments that seem to point in that direction. For some time way back I believed it was something learned botg… I think there are too many indicators that disprove that idea. At this point I think it may come as a [wth!!] when/if the blaze is discovered/revealed. I believe there is no *certainty* if a searcher needs to solve a clue in the field.

          • Hi Ken: well, I’m happy to see that I have some company, but I’m pretty sure we’re in the minority. I’ve always treated Fenn’s Chase like a classical armchair treasure hunt: decipher all the clues, devise the logistical plan of attack, and execute.

            “At this point I think it may come as a [wth!!] when/if the blaze is discovered/revealed.”

            That’s the OMG revelation I’ve been looking for. I had what I thought was a “sensible” blaze choice that I was using for my last few BOTG trips, but I get the feeling now that it’s just a little too obvious. It’s perfect in so many ways, but I think Forrest’s blaze is going to be something more subtle, clever, unexpected, or all three.

          • Zap,

            Agreed, we can’t going looking for later clues… no matter which clue.
            But my idea is or scenario is… for example;
            Be on site, have the correct WWsH, have clues 2 3 4 correct ‘and’ still get confounded by clues 5 6 7…

            Is it possible to locate hoB on a map?

            My thoughts are, we might be able to at that point [ locate a feature on the land, that is hoB, idea. ] the question is; will it look the same from GE as on the ground? I’m not sure if it will… I’m almost betting it won’t. Nor some of the other clues.

            Fenn stated he wrote the poem from memory. Didn’t use a map [ I assume GE is of the same ]. So everything he saw was at ground level. So, sure… we need WWsH to start with because it is the only way / maybe even, place, to ‘see’ the other clues, from ground level, line of thinking.

            On the flip side; he does tell of Philly from an aircraft [ a GE style view if you will ] But if that were the case. Why follow clues if all clues can be seen from above [ map style ]-?- if the clues can be deciphered from home.. and this is a point to point method.

            “not in practice” seems to be the key phrase. We need to be ground level. So we [you & I] agree on a lot. We just disagree on the method to proceed.

            The main obstacle that all seem to stumbling on are clues 3 – 4.
            But I take it a step further and ponder why searchers who had the first two clues correct didn’t know they did. They mentioned those clues as ‘deciphered’ ‘solved’ ‘Indicated correctly, right? [fenn’s words, not mine]
            But at the same time, they told / walked fenn through their process. [ we don’t know for sure what their process was ] yet, you can bet it was a point to point method like so many have used, and still are.

            I think even having the correct clues deciphered [ their references of physical places] beforehand…
            [which I don’t think is plausible, in all honesty ]
            …they are more than likely taking a good solve and proceed wrong.

            The kicker is; fenn followed the clues…
            However…We only know of the guesstimate time to go from the “Car” to the “Hide” not the time involved with the clues.
            We have an idea of less than a few miles for “two trips from the car to the hide” only.
            We know he took the same route in and out “from the Car” to “the hide” and still nothing about the clues themselves.

            What we don’t know is; how he ‘proceeded’ when he followed the clues. Or even, when he start at the first clue.
            Nothing in fenn’s comments tell us those answers… they all revolved around ‘trips’ from the car to the hide.

            It’s not hard to look at a theory as… he parked, he walks to distance to WWsH, he sees his created clues, he finished the task he has the poem relaying, he locates what he can utilize for a blaze and hide the chest… all within a confined area. And walks back for the second load and right to the hidey spot… picked out; from following his own clues to a usable blaze.

            Again, how the chest is hidden is of no concern… as long as the clues take us to the blaze, to reveal the hidey spot.

            Fenn was asked if the exact spot of the chest is the same spot he’d want his bone to be… Yes was the answer. And at the time of that question, imo, fenn had found that spot IN is special place. I highly doubt his special place is a 10″ sq spot.
            Fenn said; he knew exactly where he wanted to hide the chest. I think he is only talking [again] about his special place, not an exact 10″ spot. A place within the RM’s, line of thinking.

            Why couldn’t fenn answers Becky’s question in some manner…[ which was a great question to ask ]… but waits 30 minutes in thought, not to answer it… YET… sends the Q&A to Jenny to have posted [ out of the many question he could have answered.]

            That Q&A alone is something to ponder about.
            IF my theory is remotely correct; fenn had to follow his created clues to find a natural object to use as the blaze… In his special place…
            How can he even think about answering that question at all?
            Isn’t the whole idea for us, to follow the clues, is to “find the blaze”? Did fenn do the same?

            The chest/trove/treasure is nothing more than a reward for a job well done.
            “been wise and found the blaze”

            LOL in theory of course.

          • Zap… was your last [blaze] bigger than a breadbox? At this point in the Chase… being in the minority may be a good thing…

          • Hi Seeker: slow to respond to one of your posts from yesterday.
            “Is it possible to locate hoB on a map?”
            IMO, yes, absolutely. But my opinion should come as no surprise given that I’ve maintained that all the clues can be solved from home. You expressed concern that HoB (and some of the other clues) may not look the same on GE as on the ground in person. Sure, but suppose what HoB “looks like” makes no difference at all?

            “Fenn stated he wrote the poem from memory. Didn’t use a map [ I assume GE is of the same ]. So everything he saw was at ground level.”

            You place a lot of emphasis/importance on things Forrest could “see” while on site. That may not be relevant. For instance, I don’t need a map to know the names of all the streets in my neighborhood.

            “Why follow clues if all clues can be seen from above [ map style ]-?- if the clues can be deciphered from home.. and this is a point to point method.”

            Reading between the lines on this, you ~seem~ to be suggesting that if you can figure out all the clues from home, why do you need to “follow” anything on site? Just go straight to the treasure. My answer: what if the physical process of navigating to the chest by the most sensible route unavoidably takes you by all the clues? Sure, you don’t need them any more — you know your destination. But you’ll still ~encounter~ every one of them. This is completely consistent with one of Forrest’s ATFs: “*If you truly know where it’s hidden, you don’t need the directions. f”

            “The main obstacle that all seem to stumbling on are clues 3 – 4.”

            Yep.

            “But I take it a step further and ponder why searchers who had the first two clues correct didn’t know they did.”

            Well, there’s “know” and there’s “KNOW.” In the strictest sense, nobody KNOWS anything w/o successfully finding the chest. And if you can’t solve clue 3, then naturally that’s going to cause you to at least have some niggling doubts about your solution to clues 1 and 2. Conversely, if you CAN solve the third clue, then that might significantly boost your confidence that you’ve nailed down the first two clues, even without the proof of the chest.

            “Why couldn’t fenn answers Becky’s question in some manner…[ which was a great question to ask ]… but waits 30 minutes in thought, not to answer it… YET… sends the Q&A to Jenny to have posted [ out of the many question he could have answered.]”

            Well, he DID answer it — if one can decipher his answer. As you point out, he didn’t have to respond to Becky’s question at all, yet he did.

          • Zap ~ ‘You place a lot of emphasis/importance on things Forrest could “see” while on site. That may not be relevant. For instance, I don’t need a map to know the names of all the streets in my neighborhood.’

            Right… you wouldn’t need anything because you know the place well. That is my point… We may see the street from GE, but not what the street sign says. We would need to be ground level to read it. [obviously, without the use of street view from GE ]. A clue can work the same. What it looks like from GE can be completely different to the ground view of it.

            I don’t want to cut and paste the paragraph, but the short of it is; “*If you truly know where it’s hidden, you don’t need the directions. f”

            Right… in a point to point idea, if you know where the end is… you don’t need to go to those points. [ following directions]

            In an observational solve; you need to follow instructions in order to find the end. I don’t think we can know the end prior to being on site. The first clue [ or two ] gets us to the location. Rest rest [poem] IMO are mostly instructions.
            LOL “people don’t see it the way I do”

            There’s a difference between know and KNOW. ?? hmm. lol are you sure you’re a rocket scientist? JK…
            I don’t know what to think about that.
            But I wish I had that line in high school during math class.

            Becky’s Question… I’ll bite… how is it deciphered… I gave some ideas… what’s yours?

            But let me add this. [ not direct at you Zap, but a general comment ]
            Becky’s question discussion is a good example for the difference between “Bias” BS some use to play down thoughts vs. Analyzing thing… and yes… analyzing them to any theory.

            The difference is; using the ATFs when thinking about all methods / theories, and not just one. I think some blogger seem to think a person’s idea towards an ATFs only relates to that person’s theory… I have said before… I can chat about any [ lets call it ] versions we can come up with.

            For example;
            Fenn’s comment about the 80 yr old not going down and up… y’all know it.

            I can see why some visit the idea that driving is now involved. But if I’m analyzing that thought… other things need to be questioned. Such as how searcher made it to the place they needed to stop without a clue telling them where to stop at?

            Becky’s question is great for that reasoning… the non-answer question is forcing us to ask the whys? the WhatIF? the possibilities involved for any type o solve to attempt to understand … WHY… was this posted at all? [ when fenn had other Q&A’s to post ‘with’ answers to them.

            Zap, whatcha got for the deciphering of this Q&A? [ sorry if you mentioned it before… but lets have at it. ]

          • Seeker, re: “We may see the street from GE, but not what the street sign says. We would need to be ground level to read it.”

            What if everything that’s relevant about a clue is captured by what’s on the map?

            “In an observational solve; you need to follow instructions in order to find the end.”

            Fair enough, but:

            “I don’t think we can know the end prior to being on site.”

            Then how could all the clues be “theoretically” solved from home, even if not in practice? In an observational theory such as you describe, it would be absolutely impossible to do it from home.

            “There’s a difference between know and KNOW. ?? hmm. lol are you sure you’re a rocket scientist? JK…”

            Well, I don’t KNOW that the sun is going to come up tomorrow, yet I know that it will.

            “Becky’s Question… I’ll bite… how is it deciphered… I gave some ideas… what’s yours?”

            I don’t have a solid answer for you; what I meant in my post was that Forrest did answer the question — he provided a 41-word response. He could have just said “No comment.” In fact, he didn’t have to respond at all or even share Becky’s question with us. That tells me there is an answer hiding in those 41 words.

      • Don’t know about needing a sextant, but coordinates yes, IMO. In fact Seek, to have the coordinates would yield a start place. The coordinates might not be clues. We will follow clues, obvious, your path to get to coordinates. Clues will be at the start of your path, along your path, to the coordinates, and then a solve of the last clue. Putting an “x” on a map thinking.
        As far as solving the clues to get your path, to many ATF’s that thwart that idea. (don’t think I need to remind of all the ATF’s that go against the thought). To not have the answer to just one clue would be disaster, but, to have the “x” on a map, which coordinates would give, then the path will furnish the clues.
        The thing about finding the numbers within the poem starts by not putting any thought into there not being an “x”. If you don’t see an “x” how can there be a value to it? And that’s legit, but, that is not how to find the numbers.
        You know I’m into the numbers thing, and, they do give coordinates, which gives an “x”. Getting to that “x” by your path, and where you start is wwwh, follows all ATF’s better then needing to solve clue to clue to find the chest. I’ve said before, what if the one thing that searchers haven’t thought about for a winning solve is that some of the clues that f has given cannot be solved because f has not given the answer to them? We need to learn, find, follow clues, why not ever having the answer to a clue and knowing what that clue is 100%? Why hasn’t f said that you need to have the correct answers for the clues? To know what they are? Solving to f is just being on sight, that is a lot different then knowing what the clue is or having the correct answer for it.
        Every write up we’ve seen has the searcher guessing at the first clue. I don’t see that as getting the first clue nailed down. But think about it, it’s what most need to do to get started, if they need to solve clue to clue. With f’s ATF on no answers to the first clue in a subtle way, guarantees that it will continue to be guessed at. Like Ken said, the whole poem needs to be understood. Like f said, how many clues minimum are needed to find the chest, answer, the las, wouldn’t his answer need to be two if you have to solve the previous clue to get the next? If you need just the last, wouldn’t you need the 8th clue to answer the 9th? So, was f lying? That actually you need the 8th to get the 9th, meaning at minimum two are needed? I guess most searchers are just not listening to what f is implying. We’ve been in this long enough, does it sound like f to have the answers out there to find? wouldn’t there be something into it? Wouldn’t the “norm” be taboo? I will say it again, because it fits everything, “you will know the end spot before you know the start spot.” IMO, if a searcher has not explored this thought, then they just are not serious.

        • Poison Ivy ~ ‘IMO. In fact Seek, to have the coordinates would yield a start place. The coordinates might not be clues. We will follow clues, obvious, your path to get to coordinates. Clues will be at the start of your path, along your path, to the coordinates, and then a solve of the last clue.’

          I kinda said the same in the post above, just now. So we kinda agree in that thought process.
          I also agree that some clues need to be discovered [ meaning found or seen on ground level, idea ] However, those same clues [ features, if you will ] might be seen from GE and or a Birdseye view of a map, only not known of because of the angle of those mapping tools… “all of them [ the clues ] In theory, but not in practice, line of thinking.

          You bring up a good thought to “the last clue comment”
          But there is always a question needing an answer. IF we are simply told of the last clue… no problem, right?
          The question is, can we actually discover that clue by any other means than following all 9 clue references? It seems we shouldn’t be able to.
          We are told we need all the ingredients or we are going to shoot a bear of a different color.. right? Fenn even laugh about how he thought the question was funny [ or a similar question, I can remember right now ].

          You said ~ ‘I will say it again, because it fits everything, “you will know the end spot before you know the start spot.” IMO, if a searcher has not explored this thought, then they just are not serious.’

          I wouldn’t go that far as to say we will “know” the end spot before you start.
          IF true.. where did the information to discover the ‘end spot’ come from.. before… we know the staring point. [the first clue]

          And why don’t you have the chest by now?!?
          I mean, that statement [ you made] can only be made, IF you factually have the correct knowledge of the end spot. [ to know the end spot before the starting spot ]
          What the heck would stop you from a Million plus to go and retrieve the chest now-if you know we can ‘know’ the end spot before.

          It just doesn’t make sense…

          • Hey Seeker, yea, I made a little bit of an ‘aloof” statement, my apologies.

            where did the information to discover the ‘end spot’ come from.. before… we know the staring point. [the first clue]
            From the coordinates.

            The question is, can we actually discover that clue by any other means than following all 9 clue references? It seems we shouldn’t be able to.
            Yes, line 24 pretty much breaks it down, IMO. Also, IMO, products of the key.

            I’m starting to think that the ‘hints” are what is so important. The clues are more on your path directing you to the chest. The hints play more of the finding role, except for the last clue. I also see a lot of “back-up” info.

            The reason it doesn’t make sense may be because there is a different way to read the poem. It might not make sense to the way the poem has been read for so long, but perfect sense to an alternate way of addressing the poem solve. With ATF’s telling us that he hasn’t given us the answer to some clues, and comments from him that seem to say the same, and, ATF’s that support the “x” on a map idea, it totally makes sense to the coordinate searchers.

            Like you said, some clues will need BotG, but if that is the case, how can one solve for the clues at home? When you don’t know one clue, that would mess up the whole solve. It’s more likely that the clues, at least some, are just out there along your path. That you will be able to reference them from what part of the poem you are on when walking your path. For someone to say that they solved all the “clues” would have to be someone who is guessing. That’s what the solve clue to clue searcher is actually doing, because there is no way to know what a clue is in the poem, except for the two we know of. Lol, to f, the word ‘and’ just may be a clue, we don’t know. He has never said that solving the poem consists of solving all the clues.

            And yes, I like the thought that you would need clues to solve for other clues but yet we only need to solve one, the last. Wouldn’t we need the 8th to solve for 9? and need the 7th to solve for the 8th? Now that makes no sense.

        • Hi Ivy! I’ve really enjoyed your posts. Fenn’s quote, “you will know the end spot before you know the start spot” I interpret this way… We all have different start spots. I think my start spot is right… you think your start spot is right… but none of us “knows” our spot is right until we actually find the TC. In essence, we will “know” our end spot before we “know” that our start spot is right.

        • Poison Ivy,

          You say, “you will know the end spot before you know the start spot.” I understand this is your own thought? It seems people have picked this up as meaning Forrest said it, and I am quite certain he never did, nor did he imply it. Just wanting clarification, as from reading the comments below it seems that those words have caused some confusion.

          Thanks in advance for clarifying.

      • I think that ff wrote the poem knowing that there is not many of us that know much about coordinates- no we are not dumb- its just something that we didint care much to learn about . this is the only time I have any thing to do with this word

      • Seeker,
        On July 15 your reply to me included the following paragraph:

        “There is one option in my mind for the use of coordinates [ and trust me I have looked at the poem in many different ways for them and how they might work in a theory ] .They would place a searcher in the general area of the clues [ the location for the hunt, idea. ~ The certainty of the location beforehand, line of thinking].”

        I agree with your statement. However this would not rule out my particular set of coordinates because they point to a general area which happens to include a place named Brown (on published maps), a plausible WWWH upstream, and an actual “Put-In” location in the form of a parking area for unloading snowmobiles and all terrain vehicles. Solving the remaining six(?) clues still requires imagination, thinking,word-smithing and botg (especially for the Blaze).

        You also stated:

        “Now to the book{s}. To have information like coordinates in a later book is a hard pill to swallow. That means, anyone with the first book [ that contained the poem and the challenge to find the trove ] and for 3 plus years of searching… was up that famous creek with no paddle.”

        “We do have this comment / Q&A to think about as well;
        Q~ Is it an advantage to buy The Thrill of the Chase and Too Far to Walk?
        A~ There are hints in my TTOTC book that can help solve the clues in the poem.”

        I have read and re-read your reply regarding Fenn’s books, but am still not sure where you are coming from. If I understand you correctly, I am in agreement with your statement, at least in principal. It concerns me also that Forrest might have planted a short-cut in one of his books that might not have been available to the purist who was trying to find the TC by solving the nine clues in the poem back around 2010 or 2011. But consider Mr. Fenn’s answer to the Q&A: “There are hints in my TTOTC book that can help solve the clues in the poem”. So what are these “hints” that he refers to? Could this include some general coordinates which would narrow the search window?

        • McKendree,

          At one time I used the Capital letters [ call it the structure of the poem, in part ] and Using the order of the alphabet and the order of counting 1 2 3 4 etc. A simple method Idea of how many Capital A and B etc there are. All in order of A B C and 1 2 3, reveal Coordinates in order.
          The result put me smack on the Gallitan, Madison county line Between Hebgan lake and Earth Quake lake … so you can see that there are simple methods of pulling out coordinates.

          I don’t know how you found yours… but there are many ways to find such number.
          I have also counted word in lines, ending up with a 4 digit number that lol.. match the above area to mountain peaks [elevation points]. One being Sheep mountain, and other loin head mountain smack on the border of Idaho and the counties boundaries. The trail head match a stanzas word count, a section to cross the creek [ a foot bridge ] match another stanza word counts. The lake there match Stanza 5’s word count for the correct elevation.
          I have even, by simple counting found that many coincidences. One being the space count from the letter A in AS to the letter T in treasure is 42 spaces. Not to mention it is also of the sun [ 42 degrees ] to create a rainbow.

          LOL… It’s no wonder my honeydew list keeps piling up.

          It was really uncanny. But again, these number were all done by the structure of the poem and not having to move any letters or change anything… not subtle hints from the book or any other book… I personally have a hard time that any book after the TOTC as golden info.
          It would be truly a kick in the slacks for those hunters for the first for years. Especially when we have been told “excellent research material are ” TTOTC book, GE and/ or a good map.

          LOL and in all honesty… while I enjoyed reading TTOTC… looking for anything that could help.. confuses the heck out of me. Thoughts, idea, theories, methods, go all over the place in many directions. It’s just as bad as thinking every SB has clues embedded in them… That’s over 200 clues in addition to two other books… That’s a brain overload for me… and IF true. Well, I’ll never be able to figure this out with all those, so called clues.

          I truly try to stay with the poem and use ATFs [mostly direct quotes from fenn that can be confirmed] as best I can, as a check and balance. If you can find coordinates, all I can say is give them a try. I just don’t think fenn would change is original plans by handing out coordinates for any place in later books, or anything truly helpful [more helpful?] than what we all got from the start.

          • Seeker, I’m a capital letter fan – because they resemble pictographs and cattle brands. And I’m still a fan of A=1, B=2
            Etc ad a means of locating roads and section numbers, maybe even a zip code or USGS reference.

            I think when Forrest referred to CE, it is almost the last blaze. And then you find a branding iron with FF or some other brand to pull up the treasure from under a small round wet/mill stone – like the drawing in his book.

          • Seeker,

            I think that this discussion thread is straying a bit from The Blaze topic of this site. However, in brief answer to your question about where I came up with my coordinates, the numbers I found were from the TTOTC book, so this doesn’t go against your opinion that it shouldn’t be from subsequent books which did not contain the poem. I found my coordinate numbers after reading a post several years ago from a Searcher called 42. A person with this screen name just replied to your latest post to me on July 15. I have been trying to make contact with this person for two years or more without success.

            If 42 is following this reply to Seeker, I found possible coordinates based on bold capital letters referring to compass directions at the beginning of each chapter. Then I recently visited the Fenn Clues web site, which described the 13 post mark errors in TTOTC, suggesting a 13 digit coordinate location. These two independent (but TTOTC book based) leads led to a plausible Search area. However, as Seeker correctly states there are many ways to come up with coordinate numbers which plot within perfectly reasonable geographic search parameters. Who knows if any of these are reallyATF hints or leads?

            So 42, if you are out there I would love to exchange ideas regarding capital letters and such.

          • McKendree,

            I didn’t even see 42’s response to my post until now… so thanks for drawing attention to it.
            I recall long ago 42 said I was ‘right’ about something.. so he’s a good egg in my book. lol. Although he / she as been quiet for a while. Maybe well see more, now.

            Just a quick question about where the numbers came from;
            How important to your solve are they?
            I mean, If without them the poem can’t be solved, doesn’t sound like ‘subtle’ to me.
            I’m also curious to which clue they might refer to. I don’t need to know the line in the poem… just clue 1? or 2 ? or 9? respectively.

          • Seeker,

            I too was surprised to see a reply from 42. The last posts from her (?) that I saw were in 2015. I believe she was looking in Wyoming in Osborne Russell country.

            As to your question regarding where my numbers came from : I substituted Mariner’s compass numerals (0 to 32) for the nine bold faced letters until I came up with 13 digits. No re-ordering of numbers/letters was required. They are not in the lat/long system and therefore do not require the awkward need to factor in degrees, minutes, or decimal points.

            As to how important to my solve are they : I would say essential, except that if I worked through all the places named Brown in the Rocky Mts I would have eventually found this particular location and seen other possible clue references on the map.

            As to what poem clues they refer to: depending on what the clues are (which is subject to much debate among searchers) I would say certainly #4 (HoB) was immediately obvious. The others (except for the last one – the blaze) came after thinking about named features on a topographic map.

            Hope this satisfies your curiosity.

          • Yep, McKendree,

            I follow the process.
            I still a bit baffled to, why a clue in the middle of the poem.. or at least in the middle of what is considered the ‘clue’ section.

            I mean, when we read the poem, at some point we read hoB.
            Then through search or researching… we find numbers that lead us to hoB… What’s the purpose of the 3 prior clues?

            I still hear fenn’s words ringing in my ears; If you don’t have the first clue…. Yada Yada Yada… right?

            Some place referring to WWsH, a canyon, and some kinda distance to be understood, is easily .. well, Poof! No real need for them.

            I’d personally would be more comfortable with numbers relating to / helping with the first clue.. just saying.

            “42”
            Help out a one brain-cell left, Seeker… Guy or Gal? I know I knew before, but I don’t know now what I knew then.

          • Seeker,
            Yes, I am also concerned as to why apparently unconnected sets of letters and numbers would lead to the 3rd or 4th clue instead of the first. I am not the sort of searcher who would say “I am 99.9% confident I have solved the Fenn Treasure mystery”. I recognize the inconsistencies, uncertainties, and possible confirmation bias in my ideas. But at least it led me to a serene and beautiful area not too far off the beaten path, and not to some dry desert canyon or a remote snow capped area too far to walk from civilization.
            McK

    • With those tools, a fair amount of training and experience, and a map (and in the case of longitude, some specialized reference tables), you could figure out where *you* are (not precisely, but in general).

      Though no searcher could be so far off the grid as to need them.

      If you know a way to use a sextant, watch, and compass to figure out the spot where you left your truck, I’m interested.

      Which is to say that in all honesty I’m not sure what puzzle you’re suggesting here, Chad.

      Jake

  76. If the home of Brown is the 2nd or 3rd clue, then the blaze must be the seventh or eighth clue. There is another clue you need to resolve in order to find the treasure, IMO.

    • Muset, seems there is a piece of the puzzle missing somewhere, that piece might be locked in the past tense of the FOUND the blaze, In your dictionary, what’s an aberration? ~Serge Teteblanche

      I don’t have a dictionary but my personal definition is “Something different.” I like that word.

      When I was a kid there was a commonly used word. Crean, and it described the condition a car could get into when it ran into a ditch and the frame twisted a little, preventing the doors from opening. Modern autos are more sturdy so I guess that word was retired. I can’t find it anywhere now.f

      Is Tarry Scant such a made up or unused term, has time forgot or did ff just imagine it could be such an expression?

      Question posted 6/26/2014:

      Can the blaze be pre-determined by the poem or can it only be determined at the search area?- becky

      Becky, you are a rascal to ask that question and I have been sitting here for about fifteen minutes trying to decide what to say. Well, it has been thirty minutes now and I think I’ll pass on the question. Sorry.f

      What has to be found from either the past or the other clues, imagine if WWWH was a longitude say 32 degrees or 37 degrees then the subtle suggestion is IMO that to form this thought on a map we need to know that THOSE BORDERS and are the Latitudes of the warmest state in the Rockies,
      New Mexico, now if some searchers had this figured out way back at the beginning and they came close, what makes us think it that border coordinate is not a clue? THERE is only one way this makes sense, something in the past will be key to our solution,,,s.

      TT

      • Thanks for all those references.

        It seems to me the point about a blaze being a blaze is that it stands out and shouldn’t be difficult to find. Even two hundred years ago, a blaze was not only a physical thing, but an integral part of the verbal instructions one might give to another when giving directions.

        • Muset, what does the HOB and the Blaze have in common? You can come within close proximity of each and completely miss them. ie left the poem? Why would a BOTG searcher miss or leave the poem? Because something needs to be found or determined, a key to the puzzle if you will and my opinion is that they may be far away yet the co ordinates, something like the last 4 digits of his old home address, backward….hypothetically say that 106.3141 longitude was the HOME of Brown and the Blaze was a latitude, the same one as the border of 37 degrees? Something tells me this is the reason no one gets past HOB and could not ever find the cross or the X due to both being required to find AKA FOUND the Blaze…You and I both know that 106 degrees longitude East Hemisphere was an important place for a rescue, but his old home address might be needed to the exact distance of several feet vola HOB..once there a blaze appears, something that stands out will show.

          If all the clues are truly close in some respects our job is to distinguish longitude, Latitude to the 4th character after the decimal. My guess was 106.3141 Long X 37.? or 36.9?

          TT

      • CAREEN (verb) – “move swiftly and in an uncontrolled way in a specified direction.”

        A kid, especially a kid from Texas listening to adults speak with an accent, might hear the word as “crean” rather than “careen”. It is neither made up nor unused. When I lived in Monterey County there was a stretch along the Big Sur coastline where dozens of cars over the decades had careened right off of PCH and landed on the beach below. It was a careened car cemetery down there.

        That Old Fox Forrest cracks me up sometimes. This was one of those times.

        • Yep: Forrest likes homonyms, anagrams, Spoonerisms, and other forms of wordplay.

          • Hi Jake: flutterby is an anagram of butterfly (as well as a Spoonerism). There is also the improbability of the Montana-related anagrams being incidental in both the beginning and end of his Q&A reply to Milan, and multiple uses of the word tantamount (Montana + Tut). Less convincing is Forrest’s repetition of the word “imagination” (from which Montana can also be extracted).

          • Zap – I think tantamount is to emphasize “add up to”, related to his “Dal’s age” post. I think this is what we’re supposed to do with word-to-number conversions for coordinates.

          • Lets face it, Fenn has typed and said millions of words and you can only find one but fly in the ointment of millions?
            Talk about a huge stretch.

            Remember, you have to use all the letters. I’m not buying the others you posted in the past because you conveniently throw out letters you can’t use.

          • Jake, you asked and I supplied a few examples. I get that you don’t like anagrams or acrostics as possible mechanisms that Forrest could have used to deliver hints or clues, but these techniques are quite common in other armchair treasure hunts.

          • Zap – I mean, you seem pretty experienced at oppositional rhetoric and you make a good point. At the same time, there are alternate interpretations of what Forrest is saying. Being a data hound, I do know the value of an outlier like fluttetby in a linguist’s puzzle. But I’m not really sure how to use it. I’m also not convinced that an anagram and acrostic approach is appropriate.

          • Zap,
            You gave one example of anagram.
            That is not enough to be confident that he likes them.

          • Zap – I would just add if you were a fan of anagrams and acrostics, why MT and not WY? Wouldn’t the fabled “Meeteetse pitchfork realm of horn”, and the corresponding petroglyphs excite you the most of all seekers?

          • Well, truly, didn’t mean to cease and halt on a convo ender. But I do hope I was able to express a reasonable opposing argument.

          • Jake: “Zap, You gave one example of anagram.
            That is not enough to be confident that he likes them.”

            I gave three, if you’re willing to consider 9 consecutive letters from the beginning of a sentence (which I’m guessing you’re not). It is of no consequence. Forrest likes crossword puzzles, he engages in wordplay, and he frequently utilizes phonetic (homophonic) spellings. These are all birds of a feather with acrostics, anagrams and Spoonerisms.

          • Hi E.C.: “Zap – I would just add if you were a fan of anagrams and acrostics, why MT and not WY? Wouldn’t the fabled “Meeteetse pitchfork realm of horn”, and the corresponding petroglyphs excite you the most of all seekers?”

            No, because I’m 100% confident the treasure is in Montana based on the first stanza and the solution to WWWH.

    • Muset:
      I completed my 6th BOTG today. I didn’t start BOTG until after coming up with what I believe to be the solve for the Blaze at home last July. After my first three BOTG, I figured out what I believe to be the meaning of the final clues. In this my third trip trying to give meaning to those clues on the map and on the ground, and after solving HOB, I spent three days exhausting possibilities. I ended up with squat. But on the way home while at the airport I had an epiphany. My solve for the clues I believe has been right, I just failed to match them to the map by not seeing things the way I should have. I had been close (within 200 feet) to what I believe to be the final location in BOTG 4 and 6, but didn’t see what I was looking for until after I left the area. I believe Blaze is not the final clue or even close to the end. I’ll be back soon.
      Finder

      • Our best epiphanies are on the plane or drive home.

        Good luck and I wish you good weather for your number seven.

      • Jake, I agree with Zap. I believe there are other examples in the poem.
        Perhaps you are not as far along in your analysis of the poem as Zap is (and others are). I believe TTOTC tells you how to find them.

  77. Ok, I found the possibility of numbers hidden in plain sight within the poem.
    At this time I am looking at the span of Long / / lat of the mountain range from the Canadian border to its end in N.M. Some interesting things come before my eyes at times and serve as tempory distractions. Sometimes it is like being a kid in a toy shop. ( Wooo Shiney )
    As for the clues consider this: Imho They are descriptors meant to lead one to the blaze.

    HDD

  78. Seeker,
    I like the way you think.
    Like the part about ” take it in.” As you pointed out these few words could mean ” Look at where you are and study the area. Or look down a canyon. Ok, starting to get brain farts.
    Trying to fit it together.

    HDD

    • TT – I agree that 106 is “in the mix” altho to get there would be quite the effort, at least for me. I won’t be going there until my days are drawing nigh or unless I grow wings first. Remember I’m just a frog……

      • I don’t listen to talking frogs or unicorns when I’m seriously on a treasure hunt.

        • LOL – you should! Didn’t FF say imagination is required?
          I’m green with envy of y’all that know so much stuff.

  79. It wouldn’t let me apply where I needs to.

    Seeker,
    You asked, Why not include any book{s} when directly asked about it-?- IF there was any advantage to having that / those other books?

    IMO, maybe the hints aren’t inside the other books but that doesn’t mean there aren’t any on the outside of the book. ( the book cover ) I only have TTOTC but I have seen the book covers for the other books & found them informative.
    -B

    • I too birdie.
      And what’s really gotten me excited about them is that I stared at those pictures for a long time, one of them almost 2 years and never did I find any relevance in them until my solve progressed to a certain point. In my opinion and according to my solve all 3 of those book covers are of the upmost importance and 3 different views of the same thing.

      • The nature of the puzzle and the books is that no matter what your solve, you will find confirmation in those sources. I like a 4 digit forest road, I found it encoded in a TTOTC drawing (not squiggles). I put an X on a map 6 months ago. I read a post about a longitude coordinate encoded in a TTOTC squiggle, and it passed within 100 ft of my X. (those two examples are totally unrelated locations). I could go on, but you get the idea. Not matter your solve, you WILL find confirmation in the (a) book.

        regards,
        mBG

  80. what I have found about the blaze and home of brown is that they are the only 2 land formations in the poem – the rest of the clues tell you what to look for and how to get to the treasure chest

    • can you explain further?
      Why is WWWH not a land formation? Could be a basin.
      Why is the canyon not a land formation?
      Why is the creek not a land formation? (because it has water in it?)

      Why is hoB a land formation? It might not be. Could be a boundary of some sort.
      Why can’t no place for the meek be a land formation? (a narrow steep path to traverse, or a stream to cross, for example)
      Why can’t waters high be a land formation?

      Why does the blaze need to be a land formation? It’s an object, sure, but it could be placed by humans.

      Just trying to understand what you are trying to say.

      regards,
      mBG

        • Nothing’s really obvious to everyone. But Yep, I did. Regardless
          of not knowing what would qualify the area per the poem, I saw mostly vegetation which is too susceptible to change to function as a valid blaze. If you can’t do better with imagination, you won’t
          have much of a chance of finding the TC before someone else
          does. Good luck to you. Soon this search season will be history.

    • MBG: I knew it was intended to be sarcastic, but when I pulled it up on GE this morning, I didn’t get the joke. Just looked like a random clump of trees surrounded by a clearing (old burn scar?) on some random mountain northeast of Hebgen Lake.

  81. mBG the reason I say that wwwh is not a land formation- some of it was made by men- what I call a land formation is somethimg made by nature – like the out line of a horse made by water wind the shape of something that is made by weather without the help of men- im sure you can figure out with your comment above what is a land formation made by the weather- hob – blaze – and where the tc – is

    • why do you think WWWH was, in any way, made by humans? There is no information I know of to see that conclusion as any thing more than an intuitive guess on your part. (not that I have anything against intuitive guesses)
      regards,
      mBG

      • Hey big guy – its my opinion that if you go to wwwh and you don’t see that its man made, you are in the wrong place – that’s what I think about wwwh – it is what it is – thanks for your reply and good luck on the chase——- frank

  82. these land formations are made on the ground not on a side of a cliff each clue has its own formation- made by the weather

  83. Upthread on the 15th Seeker asked… Why couldn’t fenn answers Becky’s question in some manner…[which was a great question to ask]… ?
    2014 MW Q’s
    Can the blaze be pre-determined by the poem or can it only be determined at the search area? -becky
    “Becky, you are a rascal to ask that question and I have been sitting here for about fifteen minutes trying to decide what to say. Well, it’s been thirty minutes now and I think I’ll pass on the question. Sorry F
    This sounds like another one of those * I’m not ready to say* scenarios to me. There are two choices for a searcher in this case… in the poem… or botg. Seeker even comments *How can he even think about answering that question? It is definitely one of those Q+A that makes one think/ponder as to why he even posted it…. IF… he wasn’t offering a solid answer.
    I’ll reiterate and say that I think he did… just not outright. For some, the ATF are bothersome and worthless… some say they are useful as a [check and balance]… but then conveniently omit those that directly contradict an idea or theory while choosing those that support… or somewhat support depending on the [chosen] interpretation.
    There are more than a couple of ATF that either directly or somewhat directly have Fenn explaining that the clues need to be deciphered/figured out… and then go to the first clue and follow them in order. If the blaze is a clue… I believe it can be figured out before heading on out to the first clue. Nothing will be accidental… and *certainty* precludes even heading out the door.

    • Forgot to bundle this one in there as well…
      The often asked and theorized idea of Why Fenn said he followed his own clues to hide his treasure. There have been so many comments and offered theories that it makes your head spin to the point of falling off. I think he answered that one as well. The Q was asked if he followed the same path [back to his car]… and he answered… [Yes, it was the most direct route]. That… to me… makes it the most direct route TO the special place… and nothing more.

      • Ken,

        Right… to his special place.

        Is this phrase of a special place a 10″ spot or the overall location the clues are within?

        I think the latter

        • I believe he answered that one also…
          Moby 2013 11:04
          You said that it took two trips to hide the treasure. Did you hide it two times or did you carry it the second time?
          “I hid the whole thing in one spot. But it took two trips to that spot…”
          11:23 From the car to the spot?
          (Forrest nods) “Very special spot.”
          There are a few ATF about his special place where he hid the treasure… and they don’t seem to imply anything other than the *final destination* as being his special place… unless one wants to complicate it. Right straight to it…

          • unless one wants to complicate it.

            Or one is analyzing possibilities.

            WE [ bloggers ] can debate “place” “spot” “location” all day long. only we need to think what those words mean to fenn.

            But I’ll throw this quote back into the mix;
            “…..study the clues in the book and thread a tract through the wiles of nature and circumstance to the treasure. If you can find it, you can have it. I warned the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

            So the special place is the location of the path? or the spot?
            I mean, IF we are certain that “special spot” is the chest’s home [it’s location / a place / a scant of realty, that holds 10″ sq box]. Why would bother worrying about ‘the path’ to get to that spot, IF, we can be ‘certain of that *spot*, beforehand’…??

        • Seeker;

          If it is the “overall location the clues are within” Would you say that this area would fit within the 200′ that Forrest says some searchers have been within? To be more precise, would you say that it would fit within a circle that has a radius of 200′?

          Just curious – JDA

          • If not within the 200′ radius circle, how about the 500′ radius circle? Again, just curious – JDA

          • IDK, JDA.

            In the *theory* of this being an observational solve. The canyon could be right at WWsH or a 1/4 mile away [ appox. 1300′ idea ]. HoB could be closer than that or father…. the blaze could be 20′ from where you stand at WWsH… or 600′

            The point is… until on site… those distances are not known. Hence the idea, no one, can not get closer than the first two clues… using the poem and a map [ from home. Be it TX, India, Europe, or anywhere USA ] I think we have to see the clues. or at least some of the physical clues to their references.

            That doesn’t mean they can’t be seen from GE, idea.
            But imo, only seen correctly from ground view.
            LOL maybe some day GE will send a hiker into fenn’s area, like they did for the Grand Canyon AZ, and we might see the clue’s references as fenn saw them, and remembers them.
            But right now, I think the place is relatively remote enough that “ground level GE” is not usable there… yet.

      • Indeed: he didn’t say there was another route he just said he followed the same path. Answered the question.

        IMO by FF Responding with a direct answer to the direct question might imply there is a rest of a story as Paul Harvey would say.

    • im a person who believes that fenn doesn’t dodge becky’s question at all, i just think you have to read between the lines of his comment to find the answer he’s alluding to.

    • Ken, I agree with your thought here…If the blaze is a clue… I believe it can be figured out before heading on out to the first clue.

      More opinionated context…although the blaze clue is in the poem further down then multiple other clues, I think the answer to figuring out what the blaze is comes in the poem before the first clue.

      • That’s a theory I’d like to hear… FD.

        Not that its not been mentioned before about the first stanza. But never explained how the first stanza tells us what it actually is.

        • Seeker, my take would be to try to take in the big picture like you do. Combine all of the ATF’s as best we can.

          You said above… I warned the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did.”

          How to get this certainty about the blaze? A reasonable path would be that whatever gives us certainty to the correct starting location where we can find the correct wwwh nearby would also be the same, exact answer for what the blaze is. Making sure it doesn’t violate any of the ATF statements.

          • FD,

            That’s kinda my point. Certanty of the location can’t be the hidey spot itself or ‘special spot’… That would be game over for WWsH and other clues as the idea of “following” them to lead to the chest.

            IF that can all be done before leaving home… the clues are no longer needed in the field. No need to go to any of them or even be at / start at WWsH ‘while in the field’… just go straight to the blaze / and or / chest.

            That’s an arm chair solution ? right?

          • That’s quite the assumption Seeker… every path has a beginning… and depending on where you may be going along that path…your final destination… is the end of it no matter how you slice it.

          • Which part, Ken?

            ? *Certainty of the location can’t be the hidey spot itself or ‘special spot’ * ?

            If all the clues can be determined before we are on site… everything prior to the ‘blaze/chest’ [ either ] doesn’t matter once we leave home.
            In that case the path as been accomplished.

            If I’m home and want to locate a restaurant and google the path to it. Do I really need to follow that path if I *now know* where the restaurant is?

          • The path, also known as the most direct route, may be the only feasible way to get there without being like some folks who can’t follow directions. Poor execution probably evolves into leaving the poem… for a number of reasons.

          • Again,

            The “most direct route” implies other ways to go there. At least I would think so. It didn’t say the only route. idea.

            LOL Now I sound like; ‘he didn’t say “all” the clues.

            Then again, if the route is only one route. HA! we really suck at reading maps / follow directions…even IF we know beforehand where the actual end is.

          • There’s an obvious glitch that has caused folks to get off track after the first two clues.
            If it was easy… anyone could do it.

          • Seeker, let’s go with the scenario that the blaze can be predetermined from your armchair.

            Let’s then add the step that you can predetermine the blaze before the rest of the clues (even while not focusing on trying to figure out the blaze clue).

            Just because you supposedly now know the blaze doesn’t mean you have yet figured out any of the other clues or know where you are suppose to stand to make use of the blaze and what comes after in the poem.

          • Ken ~ ‘The path, also known as the most direct route,…’

            Something bugged me with your comment, ken. I had to go back and find the Q&A because I could remember what was stated exactly… below:
            “Dear Mr. Fenn, Once you hid the treasure, did you take the exact same route in reverse to return to your car?”
            Thank you. ~ Tyler Y.
            Yes I did Tyler, it was the most direct route. f

            The answer is not of the path… the question asked; “once you hid the treasure…”
            The path was already done.. following the clues.

            “…did you take the exact same route in reverse to return to your car?”

            Are we forgetting he took two trips to bring 1/2 the load each trip?

            Fenn has implied he answers questions as presented [ classroom Q&A ]
            “hid [ hiding of ] the treasure” is in two parts. Not completed until the *second* part is done.

            IF I can for a moment… The idea of following the clues, might not be the idea; of the most direct route ‘from the hide to the car’
            we have been told we should be able to walk to our solves twice.
            “If you can’t make two trips from your car to your solve in several hours, then don’t go.”
            When I read that the first time I thought it was strange..
            I mean 42 lbs regardless of size [ and I get the idea of spread weight vs, compact weight ] his not going to be an impossible task for some of the bull size guys and tough gals in this search.

            What is it about *two trips* we might be overlooking? and are those two trips the same route [ both ] as the clues and the direct route to the car?

            I mean, in reality… I’d settle to take the gold and trinkets, and leave the box [chest] if need be [ and alone ]… Maybe leave a note;
            ~Sorry Charlie you get second prize for your efforts.

            Something is missing… Not unlike the 3rd clue or 4th… something is not being thought of.

            The again, IF all we need to do is go to WWsH and follow the clues by seeing how it unfolds… we then go to that end spot, retrieve, and take the same route back to the car [ as many times as we like ]… because its the most direct route to the hide [ and the clues ].

            But even then… somethings is missing. This “twice” thing seem to be more than just about weight.

          • For Ken: He Who Teaches A Child Labors With God In His Workshop:

            HWTACLWGIHW
            WWWH: A GLITCH 🙂

          • Zap… I had seen you post that elsewhere…at least part of it. Interesting to say the least given the current circumstances.

        • Morning all.
          Seeker, I think you are on to something there.
          Was dividing the treasure x 2 just a way to transport the chest and contents or a way to indicate numbers are in play.
          I recall FF saying something about hating math. ( A hint? )

          HDD

    • Ken,

      Predetermined, and of the certainty – beforehand… can be confusing in-of-itself.
      Depending on one’s view point “The Location” can be; of the hidey spot… the blaze… WWsH… or [ as I think it means ] fenn’s special place where all the clues are located at.

      It seems you lean toward the idea that we can be certain of the location of the blaze, as you said ~’ If the blaze is a clue… I believe it can be figured out before heading on out to the first clue.’
      Or at the every least the first clue, and you *might* only know of the blaze *reference as an object* from the poem and what that might be.

      Assuming my assumption is correct, Something from the poem would give up what the blaze is [ as an object ].. So the answer would be “predetermined” [ if this was the case ].
      That doesn’t sound like a big deal seeing we are told of 9 clues, and All the information to find the chest is in the poem.
      But if the blaze *reference and location* is known of prior… This doesn’t seem to be that big of a deal either [ for the same reasoning above]

      However… IF the blaze is not told of as a “reference” [what it is] in the poem… it would mean that the blaze is *only mentioned in the poem* but can’t be predetermined to what it actually is.

      One reason for this could be… the blaze was not known by fenn prior to the act of hiding the chest. He would have followed all the clues to the point / place where he could use/utilize a natural object [ call it a stone for this scenario or anything else ] and hid the chest there.

      IF so… could fenn answer the question truthfully without giving up how the process is “completed”?
      I mean, he could say neither; before or on site as… It has to be one or the other. right?
      If he said only in the field… that would be a huge piece of info. A possible clue’s reference [what it is] not in the poem?!?

      No offense; but just by saying; you think the blaze can be predetermined, you kinda eliminate the possible of an unanswerable question, or answering [as truthfully has possible] would give way to much info he may not have wanted to give.
      It’s our job to read the poem correctly or as he might have intended it to be read.

      But.. the fact remains; he wanted this Q&A posted for some reason. It didn’t have to be, right?
      He receives a number of question from Jenny’s posters for her site, to be posted. That alone [ posting *this* Q&A ] is interesting.

      You say; I’ll reiterate and say that I think he did [answer the question]… just not outright. {meaning “predetermined by the poem” I assume}

      I see it slightly different; I think he couldn’t answer, yet wanted the readers to actually think of reasons, why he didn’t. [ as my explanation above, as one choice of thought. ]

      Ken, Email me at 1960charger@gmail.com [you mentioned interest in my book].

      • Just to simplify this so there is no confusion… I believe the clues can be deciphered/figured out/learned…one through nine… before botg… right straight to the blaze… and you will know what to look for, and what to do.

          • I knew you would like that!
            “Your destination is small, but it’s location is huge.”
            I will shoot you a mail later.

        • I agree ken – I would not go anyplace – with out me not knowing what when and where- I would go one time to where I think it is – and if not there time to move on

        • That’s pretty bold ken.
          I’ve read all the ATF’s and comments but Becky still scares me. I am a believer for the 8 clues but knowing the blaze scares me a bit although we should notice something that stands out. If it’s in the poem, I haven’t figured it out after reading it a thousand times.

          I did think it was a rock shape of an owl which I found at Taylor Falls about a couple ft high standing on the pool where the water rested for a bit and near the same place there was a boulder 6′ x 6′ x 5′ with a large white stripe on it but was too close to a trail and no treasure.
          i ignored all the tree trunk carvings except from the griz.

          So, wise may be an owl, the stripe doesn’t seem to be in the poem and I would think if there is a hint in the poem that helps clarifying the blaze, then I must need to look up more words but I also would think it would be in the same line as – If you’ve been wise and found the blaze.
          As I posted before, about “found” being a foundation or rock, this doesn’t give me enough description or detail as what the shape or imaginal clarity.

          I was surprised to see you more confident in your theory about this. Sounds like you are near the end of your solve and may be good enough to give it a whirl.

          If you do, I think you have the cerebral tools and capability needed in at least getting close and maybe more.

    • Hi Ken:
      Re: “If the blaze is a clue… I believe it can be figured out before heading on out to the first clue.”

      I think we can safely remove the conditional. My transcript follows from Outside: Live Bravely (8/11/2015):
      “The problem searchers make is that they don’t dwell long enough on the first clue. If you can’t find the first clue you don’t have anything. People driving down the street looking for a blaze, because that’s one of the clues, but you can’t start in the middle of the poem and find the treasure.”

      • Zap… got it. I added that just to be completely clear. You know how it goes often times. The blaze is absolutely a clue and one to be highly sought after.

  84. Something to knaw on.

    Tossing my thoughts of what the blaze may be.
    I have dropped several examples of what the blaze could be, seems no one took the time to look and think.
    Imho the blaze is a rock formation that when one uses their imagination they will see the form of an animal. My personal favorite is a turtle, other possibilities are a frog and an owl.
    Think of the old of the mountain, it was a landmark until recently.

    Want to expand your imagination? Go to a park and lay on your back and look at the clouds.
    What forms and shapes do you see?
    And I think to myself what a wonderful world.

    Consider this: Wwwh, hob can be descriptors of a single place.

    HDD

      • I see a “frog” but then I’m a bit partial and kinda green.
        Would love some coffee – my pot is broken and I’m still waiting on a new one. I Know for Certain that the “Blaze” is somewhere out There.
        Just gonna sit hear until I croak…….

      • that’s what happens when man tries to control nature HDD. Those fools had been messing with that landmark for a long time… thinking they were *improving* things.

  85. JDA has the same observations of the blaze as myself. Others have been within 200/500 ft but apparently not recognized it. In this case I must agree that size does not matter. We have no reason to believe it’s bigger or smaller than a breadbox.

    • saun… my [breadbox] question to Zap was made with tongue in cheek and had no bearing on anything in particular. Have some fun and good luck in your Chase…

  86. to get to the blaze you have to go to wwwh
    then you got a take it in the canyon down
    then you got to go to home of brown
    from there you stay on heavy loads
    and go to waters high
    and then the blaze -so how are we going to get to the blaze when we cant find the begging to wwwh . and as far as im concern you can find your way to the tc from home with GE and the computer

    • Hi Frank: I’m not sure the poem tells us we need to “go to home of Brown.” It says to “put in BELOW” the home of Brown. Kind of like, take the next left after you pass the McDonald’s.

  87. hello Zap you are correct – you don’t go to hob – what I was trying to say is the clues you have to take- to get to- or know- what the clues are- to get to the blaze- may I add a little something to that is- that I don’t think you need to stop or go to any of the clues only- where he stopped and parked- its just like passing McDonalds.

  88. Well, it’s been fun but I think this page is getting full…
    So we all agree the blaze could be the size of a bread box and as large as a mountain and be any color in the spectrum, a shadow, a waterfall, a rock, a owl, tree, tire tread, fire pit, Etc…
    Either way, I’ll eat my hat if it’s not the last and 9th final clue in the poem.

      • Savor it for yourself.
        When all is said and done (if we are alive, I believe) we will know that the blaze is the last clue. All the other lines in the poem may help wit the clues.

  89. The discussion between Seeker and Ken about can or can’t be seen on GE for the blaze, I agree with Ken that it can be seen just for this reason, marry the poem to a place on a map. Sure sounds like a map is needed to follow the clues.

    Seeker seems to want to view and all can be determined from just from one single location. This sounds like guessing and not certain beforehand. You can’t see much of anything while botg because the trees, shrubs, valleys and mountains unless you’re on barren ground, which doesn’t sound like ff special place at all.

    Question is what makes you think that the blaze is hidden from view, is it just because ff mentioned GE can’t go down far enough that you can’t see the chest? So how does that include the blaze? It IMO does not.

    • So Charlie, there are no places in the mountains where you can’t see past trees and shrubs?.

      You again, enjoy twisting words. I never said any clue can’t be seen from GE.. I have explained it may not be recognized from a Birdseye view and only seen correctly from ground level.

      Sorry if that doesn’t work with your maps.
      If you’re going to debate the process, the least you can do is pay attention.

      As far as what I “seem” to want?
      What I want if someone to explain why the theory is not workable with the explanation I gave you the other day. Instead of some idea that we can see any views in the RMs because of trees?!?

      Geeezus…..

      • Seeker,

        Funny thing is, if your looking at it with a birds eye view, you must be using a map of some sorts, Just because maybe you didn’t find one on GE\map doesn’t mean it can’t be seen. I’m sure not wandering around in an area on a hunch looking for a unknown blaze. This comes to mind, “knew beforehand”, sounds to me ya gotta know what the blaze is beforehand, no other way to do that is use GE\map.

        ~ What I want if someone to explain why the theory is not workable with the explanation? ~ I guess the reason is you can’t prove or disprove a hypothetical.

        You can’t tell me trees, etc aren’t going to block your view in some way, when there are pines etc around unless your in a huge meadow the whole time, in the RM?

        • Charlie M,
          “It helps to know something about Rocky Mountain geography when making plans to search for my treasure. Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve. Google Earth cannot help with the last clue. f ”

          What *knew beforehand* are you referring to?

          You said; ~ You can’t tell me trees, etc aren’t going to block your view in some way, when there are pines etc around unless your in a huge meadow the whole time, in the RM?

          Well, if you’re talking about a large distance between 9 different location… trees will be your problem. I don’t know how many time I can explain the theory or how to explain it better… you walk, from the place you can park at, to the location of all the clues. It’s not a hard concept to think the clues can be close to each other.

          And again, finding on GE doesn’t say you can understand what you’re looking at. The above quote from fenn implies after the first few clues.. we need to be on sight to finish the solve. “…physical presence is needed …”

          The comment doesn’t say go to the blaze or go to the chest… it say to *complete* the “solve”

          Not unlike; “To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f ”

          Do you truly think the poem’s written words were not done by 2010?
          Following the clues in the poem ~ is *completing* the poem.
          So, why did he need to follow them?
          My answer has been suggested… he need to “find” the blaze.

          So what makes more sense… we can find the blaze beforehand on a map or we have work to do on site and not just hop skip and jump hoops to the hopeful predetermined blaze.

          If by finding the blaze will *obviously* result in knowing the distance to the chest.. why is fenn saying a “physical” present is needed to complete the solve, only after a few clues?… IF the blaze is on a map or GE?

          A few clues can not be all clues…
          *IN theory* but not in practice.

          After reading fenn’s ATFs above, are you going to stick with the notion; ~’This comes to mind, “knew beforehand”, sounds to me ya gotta know what the blaze is beforehand, no other way to do that is use GE\map.’

          I’m perfectly fine with that…. But instead on yacking about the trees you’re so fond of.. how do you get around the ATFs to have the blaze “knew [know] beforehand”
          Because I have seen a quote that talks about the blaze being ‘known of beforehand’

          Got a link to something I can have a look at? or just the wording, and I’ll track it down myself…?

          • Seeker,

            You wrote, ~ Do you truly think the poem’s written words were not done by 2010?
            Following the clues in the poem ~ is *completing* the poem.
            So, why did he need to follow them?
            My answer has been suggested… he need to “find” the blaze. ~

            Forrest couldn’t complete the poem until he hid the chest, after he hid the chest the poem was completed. Yes we do need to find the blaze. You don’t seem to be looking at this one point, did he follow the poem physically or did he do it from memory. You assume it was done physically for each clue, that may not be the case.

            You said, ~ So what makes more sense… we can find the blaze beforehand on a map or we have work to do on site and not just hop skip and jump hoops to the hopeful predetermined blaze. ~

            You have to jump through hoops in order to find the blaze, isn’t that the case when you have to solve the previous clues in order to get to the blaze? Whether or not how its done from botg or from GE/map is really moot, you need the blaze to find the chest then you can tell folks how its done.

            You wrote ~ If by finding the blaze will *obviously* result in knowing the distance to the chest.. why is fenn saying a “physical” present is needed to complete the solve, only after a few clues?… IF the blaze is on a map or GE? ~

            How would you know the distance to the chest from the blaze? Where are you getting this reasoning from? Is it the 200′ & 500 foot remark? Can anyone know where that distance starts, from what spot is he referring to, you don’t know. To worry about the distance before finding the chest is not helpful at all. Yes you do need a physical presence to retrieve the chest. Why would you need a physical presence for all of the clues preceding the retrieval of the chest when Forrest says “marry the poem to a place on a MAP”? (typed in caps to emphasize). You have your way and others have a different way.

            Those “knew before hand” are my words, do you see an f after the quote? Again an emphasis, how about using “certain”, it is still the same as “knew”.

            You said ~ Because I have seen a quote that talks about the blaze being ‘known of beforehand ~ Where is that quote regarding the blaze?

            Again you have yours and I have mine, your still hanging onto AFT for your justification and I believe you aren’t interpreting some correctly.

            Just Say’n

          • Charlie stated ~
            C ~You don’t seem to be looking at this one point, did he follow the poem physically or did he do it from memory.
            C ~You have to jump through hoops in order to find the blaze, isn’t that the case when you have to solve the previous clues in order to get to the blaze?

            S~ If following clues by memory is how it is done, why can’t we just remember where we see the blaze from GE / map and go to it?

            C ~ How would you know the distance to the chest from the blaze? Where are you getting this reasoning from?

            S ~ Apparently you missed that Q&A.
            Q)Mr. Fenn: How far is the chest located from the blaze? ~ casey
            A) Casey, I did not take the measurement, but logic tells me that if you don’t know where the blaze is it really doesn’t matter. If you can find the blaze though, the answer to your question will be obvious. Does that help?f

            S ~ It doesn’t matter what to footage is, the distance will be obvious from the blaze.
            And like usual you danced around a legit inquiry; I asked about your Quote;
            As you stated; ~Because I have seen a quote that talks about the blaze being ‘known of beforehand’ ~ Where is that quote regarding the blaze?

            You replied ~Again you have yours and I have mine, your still hanging onto AFT for your justification and I believe you aren’t interpreting some correctly.

            We’re both using ATFs in our post. I post quotes or if asked to post, I will.
            You said you ‘seen’ the quote that talks about; the blaze being ‘known of beforehand’
            Where? What does it say? Does it have those words in it?
            *the “blaze” being ‘known of beforehand’*

            I think I’m fairly good at remember ATFs quotes but this one alludes me… Why not show it?

          • Cut the “Your delusional.” crap.

            Your post on on July 16, 2019 at 5:17 pm said:
            I’m sure not wandering around in an area on a hunch looking for a unknown blaze. This comes to mind, “knew beforehand”, sounds to me ya gotta know what the blaze is beforehand, no other way to do that is use GE\map.
            {it’s a cut and paste from your posting}

            I asked where you saw this “knew beforehand”

            MY response was; { note S – for Seeker}
            S ~ It doesn’t matter what to footage is, the distance will be obvious from the blaze.
            And like usual you danced around a legit inquiry; I asked about your Quote;
            As you stated; ~Because I have seen a quote that talks about the blaze being ‘known of beforehand’ ~ Where is that quote regarding the blaze?

            The words *I have* is a typo… it should have read, *Because *I haven’t* seen a quote taking about the blaze…*
            {apologies for my type in my responses…} …Followed by my question.

            YET later in the conversation you answered like this; Cut and pasted from that conversation;
            _____CharlieM on July 17, 2019 at 1:13 pm said:
            ***You said ~ Because I have seen a quote that talks about the blaze being ‘known of beforehand ~ Where is that quote regarding the blaze?*** [ you quoting my post to you]

            ***Again you have yours and I have mine, your still hanging onto AFT for your justification and I believe you aren’t interpreting some correctly.***
            [your response to the above]
            _____End of post for 1:13pm

            You seemed to have no problems understanding and responding, even with my typo.
            Yet, instead of actually answering the question you ending run it… then claim
            I’m delusional.

            So Again, I try one last time, what reference are you talking about with “knew beforehand”?
            Those two words you placed in quotes in a conversation about the blaze, has no context to go by. But you seem to think they are about the blaze.

            It’s a simple request… and to be nip picky about it… a very ligament request, following Dal’s guidelines Rule # 2

          • Seeker,

            Again, you completely missed what I said, the quote marks around what I said was for emphasis and my own words and not a quote from ff, as I said there was no f after the quote. It was and IDEA of mine not Forrest’s!

            Its pretty sad that you are not reading what I wrote. Slow down and stop rushing to judgement and trying to pin something that isn’t there, I Broke no rules. And stop trying to put words out there insinuating I made a quote relative to any AFT.

            Get over it

          • Seeker,

            The idea “knowing beforehand”of mine came from this quote, “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence.”f

            Confidence in know what the clues are

          • See charlie,

            That’s an answer to the question I presented. I don’t agree with your assessment.. but it could have saved a lot of wasted posting and BS if you just posted it when I asked. Because you obviously knew it.

  90. the helpless cannot be helped
    that’s the answer to 22
    they MUST help themselves
    the strong survive not the weak
    men made in His image survive
    humans made in their own image do not
    thunder rose is strong and true
    the majority is weak and fake and will not
    false existence false truth false confidence
    144000
    taking questions tonight at 7 pm mst
    any and all answers provided
    in person or email
    the end

  91. 1. The blaze is an object
    2. I think the blaze is the last clue. “The clues will lead you to the treasure and whether it’s buried or not, you can find it if you can find the blaze as a result of starting with the first clue. That’s what you have to do.”
    3. GE can’t help with the last clue.
    4. Distance to the chest from the blaze will be obvious

    This also adds some perspective:
    When Jennifer London of the Today Show asked Forrest ‘Who is Brown?’, he replied, ‘well that is for you to find out. If I told you that, you would go right to the chest.’
    and
    If you are in the right spot something you probably haven’t thought about should be obvious to you

    • meBigGuy, you said “If you are in the right spot something you probably haven’t thought about should be obvious to you”. I suspect that someone in the right
      spot would SEE something for the first time . . . that would trigger the thought . . .
      about that thing. (For example: “This doesn’t look like it was created by nature excluding man; FF probably did this.”) This is the thought I had last year. But I was exhausted from the hike and didn’t do a very thorough job of searching that spot for the TC. I plan to be more thorough this summer. Meanwhile, good luck to everyone. I think the competition may *well* be heating up a bit — so to speak.

  92. when you find the blaze – then you have to go in the wood to look for stanza 1- to me its the last clue – it says that he has gone alone in there -with his treasure bold- where he can keep his secrets there and hint of riches new and old

  93. This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the conversation please go to the newest Blaze page.

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