Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Eighty

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Thanks…

 

dal…

643 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Eighty

  1. Oz10, If you’re designing a gradient on a stairway, it’s better at 7/11. Otherwise IMO, Dal doesn’t except thought provoking Ideas to be expressed especially if you don’t include IMO. Don’t forget that, or your posts will be deleted. Moderate me Dal, I no longer give a hoot! I’m outta here. Your loss

  2. I think I confuse the whole thing. He had to park fairly close to the spot. Like 1/4 mile.
    There is a back way to where I though but Didn’t Happen. used cousins truck. No..
    Hearing about the first 1000 books and just New Mexico idea. But the book didn’t
    suggest that. I am back to page one. Smaller solves. Park at the blaze and walk down.
    I can’t solve this thing. I don’t even suspect a solve. its miss fords fault.
    Big break time. Good luck searchers.

    • Luckydog,
      I’ll call on that prediction and raise you in two weeks there might be find. LOL

      “Life is a game of poker, Happiness is the pot. Fate deals you four cards and a joker, And you play whether you like it or not.”

      Good luck then Luckydog.
      Bur

      • Bur and luckydog – So glad you are both still here on The Chase!

        Did I see a “joker” in that quote?

        https://500px.com/photo/158452769

        That photographer has an awesome photo of a red-haired model posing as QE1, also, on that 500px site. I will continue to channel the energy of her Court Jester and trusted advisor, William Sommers, here on The Chase. I am sure he realized the hard work involved in playing The Fool. But it is really fun being the Wild Card.

        • Bur and lucky dog – What say you, John Dee, about luckydog’s prediction for when the bronze chest will be found? That was a pretty nice collection of his at the Smithsonian. And libraries are cool, IMO. And so are Shakespeare’s plays.

          Love, Elizabeth

        • Hi Lisa,
          You are always fun!
          We are still around. Bur is getting ready for another BOTG.
          I’m planning the timeline that I posted above. 🙂
          I like that joker!

          • luckydog – I have always enjoyed your fun posts as well, and your ability to pull quotes and info. out of a hat, like a magician.

            And I hope I can prove you wrong this Summer. So we all can have a party to celebrate and meet each other!

  3. Here we go again with another odds and ends page!

    Will this be the page where the EXPLOSION is discovered?
    How many CLUES can we search and plunder?
    Shall we be so BOLD as to make this assumption?
    Will someone say the word that’ll spark the BLAZE?
    Can the TREASURE proceed to outwit us all?
    Are we still ALONE in the secret of Fenn?
    May those RICHES finally obtain our understanding?
    Is the chase too FAR from our grasp?
    Will this QUEST Continue till then or soon?
    Do we have the END in sight or is it further?
    Who in the world is this thing called BROWN?
    Will we ride the CHASE from town to town?
    Can we see the SOLVE before our maker?
    Does WARM WATERS move at all?
    What do we do with our PADDLES?
    Can we take the CHEST back to our car?
    Will we MARVEL the finder who payed the dues?
    Do we GAZE the forest and all its rules?
    Does PEACE wait for one or all who enter?

    How many questions can we answer…..?

    • Nince – Nice Pauley T

      Only Forrest ALONE can answer your questions.
      If I am so BOLD as to say.
      Only he knows WHERE or when that might be.
      Maybe just a little HINT will make us rich

      Only he knows

      Thanks for the post Pauley – JDA

      • JDA

        It’s most certainly NICE to see you back!
        Hope to correspond with you in the coming days.
        I’m awaiting spinal neck surgery.
        I’m hoping for the best of course.
        The CHASE took my mind to a VERY SPECIAL and VERY SECRET PLACE away from my turmoil.
        I wanna thank you and everyone else for allowing my mind to Roam Amongst the Wilds of Imagination.

        Thank You

  4. I sure hope the snow stops flying in the Rockies so we can actually do BOTG…

    • The snow wasn’t so bad over the Easter weekend. Covered alot of territory even if it was a bit cold. My search is over for a while. But the birds are returning to their homes as the weather is warming up. Just gonna wait for them worms to show their heads.

    • Hello Eaglesabound. This may be one of those years where we’ll find snowbanks in shady areas in the middle of Summer.

  5. Some reasoning…

    I don’t think one can solve the poem if one thinks the first stanza is just a prelude. That’s because of this Q&A:

    If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest? Thank you ~Nope Thank you Nope. Nope

    If you are saying the first stanza is just a prelude then that is equal to saying it’s just backstory.

    The math problem we have here is the poem minus any backstory. It doesn’t matter where you find the backstory, you got to toss it. Before, everything needed was in the poem to solve it but now it isn’t enough with what’s left.

    • FD;

      Sorry, I do not follow your logic. Your quote says:
      “If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest? Thank you ~Nope Thank you Nope. Nope”

      How does this quote negate stanza #1 from being a preface or prelude?

      It CAN be a preface or prelude whether one has a back story or not. Forrest is saying that the poem can not be solved without a back story – period.

      One Must know that there are 9 clues, treasure hidden in the Roclies etc.

      The first stanza contains NONE of that needed backstory – it MAY contain OTHER information that will be needed later in solving the poem – It “Sets the stage” so to speak – at least for me – JDA

      • JDA,

        You said, “Forrest is saying that the poem can not be solved without a back story – period.”

        Is your statement your opinion? I don’t recall Forrest indicating that a back story/stories are needed to find the treasure. Could you point me to where F mentioned that.

        Forrest answered just the question from Nope, “Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest?” If Nope had included *a map” in the question, F would have answered with a yes.

        I don’t see a question about back stories at all or the need to include back stories. It was merely a statement from Nope and not included in the question. IMO.

        Just Say’n

        • “If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and NO BACK STORY: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest? Thank you ~Nope Thank you Nope. Nope”

          Doesn’t he answer it with this question? He does for me – JMO – JDA

          • JDA,

            I don’t see a question about backstories. What I do see is the “separate” question about using only the poem in the question. If you want to want to mix backstories in that’s entirely up to you.

            I wish you the best of luck in figuring backstories into your theory. Just IMO.

            Carry on, have a great day. 🙂 my friend!

          • I think there was always less here than meets the eye, CM.

            As JD says, it’s a pretty simple question with a rather obvious answer, that ff delivers with a snappy single word, played for laughs.

            1 – It’s backstory, singular (not a cache of backstories).

            2 – He didn’t include “backstory” in the 6Q&A statement you quoted because everyone reading it on MW already knows the backstory. That’s why they’re there.

            3 – Pretty much every radio and video interview he’s done *does* begin with the backstory – ” . . . we’re here tonight with FF, who hid a treasure chest in the Rocky Mountains and wrote a poem containing directions to the chest . . . we’ll be back right after these messages. . . ”

            Jake

    • Fundamental Design – Here is your post about the fifth stanza on the previous thread:

      https://dalneitzel.com/2019/04/09/odds-n-ends-about-fenns-treasure-hunt-79/#comment-760878

      Again I bring up “As above, So below”; Simile and Metaphor.

      Stanza 1 does set the stage, IMO. That Stanza begins with “As”.

      Both Stanzas 5 and 6 begin with “So”; connecting the idea in Stanza 1 with the ideas in both of these Stanzas. And reaffirming them, IMO.

      For my WWWH:

      “As I have gone alone in there,”

      “So why is it that I must go,”

      “So hear me all and listen good,
      Your effort will be worth the cold.”

      Forrest wrote in the Preface of TFTW that he went alone in there;
      that he put in on my “IT’, the Madison River.

      So Why•WY•Y is “IT” that I must go,…Madison Junction, IMO. My WWWH. Where “IT’ begins, and where I begin “IT”. That flows, IMO.

      So hear me ‘all’ and listen good,
      Your ‘ef-fort’ = ‘F fort’? will be worth the cold??? And that Double U•Eye•S•E sounded out spelling for the “wise” in the previous Stanza 4? Homophones and reading the Poem, over and over, aloud, is Key, IMO. And that ‘Key’ appears to me to be the Key of F. Forrest likes to read poems from memory aloud. He has done that at many of his book events. I like the one about the Crocodile. And I still want to know how Beowulf is doing. Pretty awesome poem, also, IMO. Because it had “So” as a pivotal culmination phrase it it; referring back to ‘all’ the Danes had done before. I am still gathering a profile of ‘all’ Forrest Fenn has done before.

      Thanks, Nope.

    • Hey…FD,
      Defined ‘backstory’? Exactly what does that mean…

      Some other notable ATF’s and Q&A’s – {summarizing}:
      -fenn used the book as an ‘avenue to present the poem.’
      -Their are hints in the book, we are told, that were not ‘deliberately placed to aid…’
      -He also stated [audio - Torg and Elliot I believe] when questioned about the ‘need’ of the book…[paraphrasing] they don’t need to read the book, they need to read the poem. …The book will help with the clues, but if they can decipher the clues in the poem it will lead to the treasure…
      -In one Q&A fenn states… all the information to find the treasure is in the poem…
      -In another Q&A [ I believe, “six questions with” ], fenn says, I have told searcher to go back to the poem so many times…
      {folks should revisit this information for the full effect, and not just rely on my summery from memory}.

      While there are other ATF’s that mention the book as having “very subtle hints” that could help with the clues etc. The one *constant* that seems to have never changed or conflicted in any way is ~ “So I wrote a poem containing *nine clues* that if *followed precisely* will lead to the end of my rainbow ‘and’ the treasure”

      The Q&A you presented; has removed the critical idea of not ‘knowing’ about any clues, or how many the poem finally ended up having, that we are told; needs to be ~ *Followed Precisely*.

      Nothing in the question, you mentioned, gives an example of what a ‘backstory’ represents.
      So, how do we know what is even considered as a backstory… or did fenn simply answer “Nope” because of the elimination of ‘knowing’ we need to decipher “nine [9] clues” and having the need to understand them precisely as intended.

      Is that sentence, just prior to the poem in the book, to be considered a backstory? IDK… but it is the most critical message we are told to understand, right? Because fenn seemingly wanted us to follow them exactly as he intended, [“there’s no other way to his knowledge”].
      Without knowing this… does a ‘backstory’ even matter?
      [no matter how it was meant or defined by the person asking that question – again- WE [readers] don’t know what the questioner is refers to, exactly].

      • Welcome back Seeker. I, for one, have missed you and your insightful posts – Again, welcome back – Hope you enjoyed your hiatus – JDA

        • JDA – I concur. But remember, Seeker, discussing the Coriolis Effect is verboten here at Dal’s. Or else. IMO.

          Big Smile! And Aaaahhh! Seeker is back.

          • Coriolis effect is a very big hint that not many (any others at all?) have understand properly.

          • I have not left a post here previously. I doubt whether Dal would censor me over my comment on the coriolis.

            I stand by my comment. I’m not forcing an opinion – I’m giving information. But if people haven’t gotten it by now….they probably never will 😉

          • Tom Derr,
            We are all entitled to our opinions.
            I see ants crawling up a tree.

          • Tom Derr – It’s a long standing joke. Dal brought it up in that recent video about why the treasure has not been found; the one he did with Michael D., Sean and DeCall.

            I don’t think this will be pretty. Seeker, what do you think???

            Giggles.

      • I learned years ago, it’s best for me to be a lurker, but I wanted to chime in and welcome you back Seeker. You are logical and thought-provoking.

      • Seeker, welcome back, your dreams were your ticket out I presume, pray all is well and we have needed and missed your insight.

        What little knowlege I have gleaned from above seem quite succinct, as always thoroughly researched, however Mr Terrific suggests that since few hints are in the book per ff, the way to locate them is to research his “Important Literature” and understand on page 9 of TToTC what kinda weather there was on the two trips to the store…

        TT

      • Seeker, the only thing I would question would be if f is saying we must follow the clues precisely, or the poem? We cannot assume f is saying to follow the clues precisely at that point. He may be saying to follow the poem precisely, which has 9 clues.
        Later in ATF’s he has said to follow the clues, but that is an obvious assumption. If you have solved the poem, then following it exactly will produce the chest. Of course, if you have solved the poem, your path will follow the clues. So, the question is, are we able to solve all the clues?
        If so, then why the comments about needing BotG to find some clues? It seems that following the poem precisely is more logical to solving all the clues. Remember the ATF about if he has given the answers to some of the clues, and his answering being no. You can’t follow all the clues if you cannot solve all the clues. But, you could find the chest if you solve the entire poem. Solving the poem and getting your path obviously follows the clues, does not mean we will know the answers to those clues. Can we really know what the blaze is, where it is, and what it looks like? Especially since that ATF says that he has not given the answer to the blaze. We know it’s a clue. If we can’t solve it, we can’t continue. But if we solve the poem, we have our path. So, in your assumption of needing to follow the clues precisely, it is more likely that you need to follow the poem precisely.
        As far as backstories and such, the person with the correct solve will follow in f’s footsteps. Will be just like f. You will go directly to the chest. You will be able to count clues. You would not need a map, if only as a tool to see where you are going. You need no backstory or anything. You will know exactly where to go. F did not need these things. His answer to the question only covers the words, and the words only in the poem. A searcher cannot use just the words of the poem. The whole poem followed precisely. The poem solved puts you in the Rockies. The poem solved will lead to a path that follows clues. So backstory or whatever isn’t needed. So the question is in regards to the words only. Which will not give you that path that you need to find the chest.
        It’s not that nope should ask the same question but add a map to it. The answer would still be the same. (Can you find with the words of the poem and a map). Nope. IMO.
        it’s the entire poem that will give your path. Now for us, is it wise to just use the poem, of course not. We have to use tools, but at the core, the entire poem and only the entire poem is all you need. Since the poem is the book, basically. All you need is the book.
        The question should be, if all I have is the book, no backstory about the Rockies, or North of Santa Fe, can I find the chest. Any bets that the answer would be yes?

        • Poisonivey;

          You say:
          “Seeker, the only thing I would question would be if f is saying we must follow the clues precisely, or the poem? We cannot assume f is saying to follow the clues precisely at that point. He may be saying to follow the poem precisely, which has 9 clues.”

          – this quote makes it pretty clear :

          Forrest once said, “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f

          JDA

          • Good one JDA, I totally forgot about that ATF. I stand corrected, somewhat. 🙂
            I was referring to Seeker saying from the line, “so I wrote a poem with 9 clues that if followed precisely, will lead….yada…yada…yada…
            He was just taking for granted that it says to follow the clues precisely, when it also could be saying to follow the poem precisely. That line, to me, says that we must follow the poem precisely and that the poem has 9 clues. But we must look at it this way,
            ask yourself, what do you consider a solve of a clue? To f, it’s just being at the spot the clue is at. Hence when he says many have solved the first two clues, they just didn’t know. For us, the searchers, to solve a clue is getting the clue correct. Not only being at spot, but knowing why we are there, and knowing what we are looking for. To us, we could be at the first clue, but if we didn’t know it, then we have not solved anything. To f, we would have solved the first clue by just being there. So, knowing that being at the 9th clue, even if we didn’t know why, we could find the chest. But also very unlikely. To f, we can find the chest with just the clues, but if we don’t know where or why we are there, it’s likely we find nothing. Solving the clues to us is different then solving them to f. Or we would just end up in the 200′ or 500′ club. And again, if some of the clues are BotG clues, having to be there, how could we know, unless it is meant to solve the poem, find the path, then solve the clue.
            Nobody can say they know wwwh until we find the chest, that statement puts the clues and the poem in different aspects. They are not the same. Solving the poem solves the clues, solving the clues does not solve the poem. IMO.

      • Welcome Back Seeker! I would love to hear again your take on the Coriolis? Please 🙂

    • FD, those who still discount a whole stanza as a prelude or just insignificant info keep forgetting the following comments:
      1.
      Dear Forrest, you tell us that we should find “where warm waters halt” before trying to solve any of the other clues. Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is:
      a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and
      b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”
      Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve
      No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?
      2.
      Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman

      There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. F
      3.
      The poem in my book, is something that I changed over and over again. When you read the poem, it looks like just simple words there. But I guarantee you I worked on that thing … I felt like an architect drawing that poem.f

      How does the statement that a ‘FEW WORDS ARE NOT USEFUL’ in finding the TREASURE has translated into whole stanzas that are not useful in cracking the puzzle? Discounting a whole stanza is not risky, is reckless.

      • That’s a very good post Oz10. Thank you.

        I keep reading your post over, and over and over again in an effort to be sure that I am understanding exactly what Forrest is saying in those quotes, in relation to how each question is presented. They seem important. (IMO).

        I’m gonna go read them again.

        Thanks again,
        SRW

        • I wonder if we ask ff how many words out of the 166 in the poem are crucial to solving the riddle, what will be his answer. Does he know that right away or will he need to count them? maybe a percentage…

        • oz10,

          I’m trying to understand each and every one of those words. By not using a single word in a line can really mess up the meaning of that line, so I try hard not to do that. Each word means something (IMO).

          What percentage are you using, if you don’t mind my asking?

          Thanks,
          SRW

          • Sure, I look at all of them 100%. Depending on how to interpret a line I find that those that did not seem important at first are needed on the second pass. Difficult to explain.

          • Thanks oz10,

            I understand. Everything is hard to explain, without saying too much, in order to explain.

            Hey…If you catch me explaining too much, please, feel free to remind me to stop. I’d appreciate the heck outta that. I don’t wanna give my spot away either. I’d like to check it out first. LOL.

            Have a good evening.
            SRW

      • Oz… those 3 comments are in my top 10 list that keep me focused on the poem. There was an early comment from Fenn that indicated his surprise that so many folks were using maps. That comment always kicked me in the shins a bit…especially after his many words about maps, GE etc. that came along later on. I agree that the entire poem is necessary in order to be *precise*. Thanks for putting those comments back on the table…

        • the 2011 comment Fenn made when he was asked if the person should buy a topographical map….was something like…you’d be better served reading the book again.

          • Hello ken. Thank you for posting this paraphrased quote. I’ve read those Oz10 posted before, but not the one you’ve stated. It’s a little puzzling because Mr. Fenn states to meld the clues to the map. (paraphrasing)

          • The 2011 Chase environment was a whole other kettle of fish.

            The article with that response (to an e-mail) was printed in August 2011, before the very first Chase season was even over. The 3,000 initial copies of TTotC didn’t sell out until the National exposure in 2013, so there were only maybe 1,000 copies (if that) out in readers’ hands. There were maybe half a dozen discussion topics here on HoD.

            The only point to this is that in the summer of 2011, ff did not have near as much feedback coming in from the field as he did in 2013, 2015, 2017. And the ‘map’ drumbeat grew along with the size of the crowd.

            By 2017, whatever else he’s saying, you can be sure he’ll always find some way of saying, with emphasis, “the poem and a map, the poem is a map” and “ya gotta start with the first clue, the mistake people make is they don’t start with the first clue.”

            Back to Margie Goldsmith’s original report:

            “One man asked if he should buy a topographical map and I told him he’d be better served reading the book again.” Fenn looked at me. “All you have to do is think about the nine clues and follow them in order.”

            Prosaic reading – if you haven’t yet figured out a place the poem takes you to, how you gonna know which topo to get (typical USGS’s don’t cover a lot of ground)?

            Evolutionary reading – ff started inside the tent looking out, and his own understanding of the tent changed as he learned more and more about what it looked like to folks outside the tent looking in.

            Both are probably true.

            Jake

        • *** *** ***
          ken – “There was an early comment from Fenn that indicated his surprise that so many folks were using maps. That comment always kicked me in the shins a bit…especially after his many words about maps, GE etc. that came along later on.”
          *** *** ***

          Hey-O, ken –

          To pu that early comment (feb 2013) in context, the Chase was just beginning to go national, and it was in answer to the very first question of the Six Questions series on MW. In part:

          Q – “Are you happy with the way the search for your hidden treasure is going?” jenny kile

          “I am more than pleased with the way it has been accepted. What I didn’t expect was the number of people who immediately started searching maps and using Google Earth to locate their special spots. Many have read my book multiple times looking for additional clues, or even hints that might assist them in the hunt.” ff

          (I know you’re familiar with the source, but for others reading this the whole exchange is here):

          http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-author-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

          So yes, “didn’t expect” can be paraphrased as “surprised”, but if so I’ve always read this as

          “what [surprised and delighted me] was the number of people who immediately started [off on the right track]”

          as opposed to

          “what *surprised and alarmed me* was the number of people who immediately started [out on the wrong track]”

          Jake

          • Jake, don’t let the end of the sentence out of your interpretation, “to locate their special spots”. He didn’t say to locate my special spot or the treasure location spot, BUT their special spots (plural).

            In other words, match the poem to a location not any location to the poem.

          • JA Kraven – Thank you for your interpretation. I agree.

            And my online topo map is free for me to use. And it uses Google Earth maps.

            They do change those map views, when they do the flyovers every few years. The view of my Ridgeline Face blaze characters was best at my start: March/April of 2013.

          • JKraven… it is true that the comment can be looked at with different eyes and like a lot of Fenn’s comments could be taken differently than what one may assume initially. It was more of a tickle than kick in the shins really, but what struck me was that he *volunteered* the word *map* and included that word in a comment about looking for hints and clues in his book(TTOTC). Later he started saying that good research materials are…you guessed it… TTOTC, GE and/or a good map.

          • JA Kraven – Could you please tell me if this pic with my blaze in the background is the exact one Forrest uses in TTOTC book?:

            http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9iiqPlq5U68/TTIiaNamOwI/AAAAAAAAABo/b23kjTjnHWM/s320/Lewis2.jpg

            That story was posted on Forrest’s blog in January of 2011. But instead of using the title in the book, he calls that, “From my memoir, The Thrill of the Chase” and gives the story another title with “foolish kids” in it in the West Yellowstone News (he named the map they burned for kindling in that one).

            http://3.bp.blogspot.com/_9iiqPlq5U68/TTIiaNamOwI/AAAAAAAAABo/b23kjTjnHWM/s320/Lewis2.jpg

          • *** *** ***
            oz10 suggested – “don’t let the end of the sentence out of your interpretation, “to locate their special spots”. He didn’t say to locate my special spot or the treasure location spot, BUT their special spots (plural).”
            *** *** ***

            Same difference, oz10, metaphorically speaking. We’re all on the track of our own private idahos.

            Reading here tells me that JDA clearly has “his” special spot where the chest lies, Cesari certainly has “hers”; Zap’s sure he’s got WWWH, but (as of last report), was still looking to put an X on the map for “his” special spot.

            Jake

          • JA Kraven – Actually, the view from here really is “My Own Private Idaho”:

            https://500px.com/photo/215554147

            I could very well have done what Forrest intended to do originally, had I not encountered a couple on the way up the Pioneer Cabin switchbacks. The upper third of the mountain was covered in snow.

            This place no one else goes. But I have been back, in late Summer, to enjoy that private view again. It is over a high ridge from the well frequented Pioneer Cabin destination.

            Sometimes getting lost has its benefits, right Forrest and Donnie Joe?

          • That’s right Jake, all having nice vacations. Sorta like the searcher who wants to smoke some legal weed will be matching the poem to his favorite spot in Colorado. Lol…

      • Foresst also told me early on to read the poem than read the book and than read the poem some more.
        I do believe that there are hints in the book and I think I have found a few.

        • My comment above was to Kraven.
          Sorry spelled Forrest wrong.
          I do believe there are several major hints in book!

  6. JDA, You listed the first stanza as a prelude only in the last Odds and Ends, I believe. I see prelude as having a similar meaning to back story. So, I don’t get to pick and choose which backstory to weed out in the hypothetical nope, nope question. All backstory has to go.

    Hence, the outcome of F’s answer to the hypothetical nope, nope question. Pretty easy to follow.

    • FD;

      I again do not see your logic:

      The quote reads: “If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, and no back story: they don’t know “in the rocky mountains north of santa fe” or that there are 9 clues etc. Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest? Thank you ~Nope Thank you Nope. Nope”

      Let’s simplify the quote: It, at its simplest, now reads: “If in 500 years all a person has is the poem, . Could a person reasonably just use the words in the poem and find your treasure chest? Thank you ~Nope Thank you Nope. Nope”

      To me, this is saying that one MUST have a backstory – NOT the other way around. One MUST know 9 clues – Rocky mountains etc. Without this backstory one can not solve the puzzle. Just how “I” read it – JDA

      • And let’s not forget that the clues are supposed to still be there in 500 years but might be changed a little by erosion or evolution or geography or geology or whatever. Hint Hint, Wink Wink.

      • When I think of backstory I think of sports. IMO it is a team or a players backstory that makes a score or win, moments and memories special. Not just statistics. It is all that leads up to that completes the picture. g

      • If the last sentence was instead the first sentence of this question to FF. Would FF’s answer to it have been the same? If his answer was still the same in that scenario , the backstory would mean ..what? With the way the question is written, the last sentence makes “nope” the only logical answer. Because the reader needs to know the poem is a treasure map that contains 9 clues. So, that being unknown prior to the first word of the question “if”, . Then that exclusion is an inclusive to the ” backstory”. Hence the “nope” answer.

        IMO .

    • Fundamental Design,

      With the reply for Nope from F, I feel some missed the boat with his reply about just using the poem to find the treasure. IMO A “map” is needed along with the poem. F has said a few times to marry the poem to a map. If NopeNope had said the poem and a map, the reply would have been Yes.

  7. When I think of backstory of think of sports. It is a team or players backstory that makes particular scores or wins, moments and memories special. Not statistics alone. It is all that leads up to. g

  8. Anyone interested in working together and splitting the prize! Two heads are better than one!

  9. JDA, my reply button is working too well so this may end up not below your last reply.

    It isn’t worth anything to simplify the nope, nope question like you did and answer it.

    You also said this earlier “How does this quote negate stanza #1 from being a preface or prelude?”.

    I never said it did. I just simply looked at definitions/synonyms for prelude and backstory.

    Seeker added what exactly entails backstory. Well, f isn’t gonna give us that so that’s what we have to figure out. That’s what I’m discussing.

    Prelude= introduction= backstory.

    • FD,

      The reason I jumped in is, I think this is a very important discussion as well…
      We knew from the book about 9 clues that are needed following… specifically 9 of them in the correct order.
      We knew from the book that the treasure is hidden “in the mountains N of SF.”
      It wasn’t till later with certain ATF’s we were told; fenn didn’t count the clues until he finished the poem, yet repeats [ from the book ] we need to decipher “the nine” he finally finished with… As well as… we didn’t know the ‘mountains’ were only within four states… the remaining four from “the map” that was later produced and eliminated the Canadian Rockies.

      Here’s my thoughts… we should have, by the use of the poem, understand that the chest is not located in, lets say, the Poconos Mountains or Sierra Nevada range, even though technically “north of SF” I think some of the problem in understanding the clues is we tend to ‘hope’ they are individual or stand alone style locations… Another-words… once we locate WWWH, then a canyon, then hob etc. we can forget why these prior clues are needed.

      My point is… just with the poem alone, we need to understand the clues might be connected in such a way, none can be overlooked [ even when we decipher a clue correctly ] This has been done already, right? and as many as four could have been figured out in the correct order… lol… yet it still seems have them know doesn’t solve – why or how they work or are to be applied to each other.
      Does the ‘backstory [ stories, or whatever was meany by that term ] help understand how the poem describing what we need to know?

      For example; I think it’s more than likely the “very subtle hints” are not so subtle once a learning curve is thought-out.
      -A map is a map, the more detailed a map the better, if you have the “right map”…
      -marry the clues to a place on a map.
      -GE and/or a good map [ which implies GE as a stand alone tool, or, the “right map”
      There’s a story n the book that ‘forrest fire’ talks about. Which it doesn’t ‘say’ use this item, the idea can be implied which exact item or area [ GE ] we might inspect. With this said, IS this what is considered a “backstory”? or is it simply a subtle hint not deliberately *talked about* to assist, but just simply is part of a story.

      The again, do we need to know that the mountains were the RM’s beforehand? Or did the poem actually explain it?
      IF.. for example hoB is a clue for a symbol of Canada- being the brown beaver and NPFTM is considered; *Home of the Brave* or the US RM’s…LOL did we really need the “map” from the second book if we had this process in our thoughts?

      Could “have gone alone in there” simply imply “fenn’s church”, yet the poem tells of where and what mountains [example above] Look at it this way; ya’ll are looking for WWH as – almost- a stand alone spot. I don’t think we can know that spot up-front without the other clues [ ingredients ].
      For example; WWWH is the watershed of the entire range… this would explain the use of “waterS” we now nee to find a specific spot on the watershed for the correct “canyon down”
      This might only be know of IF we can “learn” from the poem what hoB represents, what NPFTM represents and the “end is ever drawing nigh.
      In short and with two ATF’s; marry the clues to A place on A map [ or GE ]. and we need to “learn” where WWWH.
      Should we use the idea that “all the information to find the treasure…” is in the poem… then shouldn’t we be able to understand what the poem is saying … when we think the right thoughts? and the only real thought we have been told that ‘might’ help is; knowledge of geography.

      Again, it seems fenn needed to tell us up-front about 9 clues and about some mountains… mountains he considers his church. Only, these aren’t very subtle and much more direct. So it’s hard to fatham if there is a “backstory” needed to be know of, or just common knowledge of ‘our home’ [ brave and in the wood ] and its geography. I leave on this note; fenn put a bio in the chest to be found and explains the chase, line of thinking. I truly don’t think the book is ‘needed’ but certainly can be helpful. I think the poem is not … so much about fenn… as it is about, the RM’s themselves, with very little or no real connection to the stories told. And why fenn thoughts [ and possibly the clues references ] went to “down the road”

      It’s a great topic to chat about… however… the comments will all reflect on how each person thinks the poem should play out vs. how fenn may actually intended the clues to be utilized. IMO, this is why the conversations have stalled. You [ FD, and some others ] at least enjoy the possibilities of the “Whatif’s” lol we may not agree on them, but it is always a good refresher course to look at them.

      End of commentary……..

  10. Any thoughts on why the FF commemorative treasure chest, which sold on ebay last night, was numbered “72” ?

  11. CharlieM, yes, I know what you mean.

    But, it would make Forrest’s earlier reply to Emily not make sense…

    Emily, All of the information you need to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search. F

    This is what I mean when I said earlier Forrest told us the poem was enough.

    • FD,

      IMO I don’t feel the reply to Emily skews anything. Isn’t all the information in the poem needed, that allows one to marry the poem to a map? I will say Yes. Just because he didn’t mention a map, doesn’t make the statement conflicting with other mentions about finding the treasure.

      Just Say’n

    • Thank Gosh Forrest is okay. “Paco” is lucky he was not shot. Looks like he will have some time to think about his stupidity – Again, glad Forrest is okay.
      JDA

    • Oh my gosh! I’m glad everyone is safe and Paco is detained. Thank you for posting the link.

    • I’m glad nobody was hurt from this incident.

      The choice of content included in this article struck me as a little weird. I’m not sure why the writer went into so much detail about the other searchers who have previously died, when the main topic is about the crazy dude who was arrested. It seems like the writer wants to portray the entire Chase as some sort of crazy circus as much as possible. Ah well, my two cents.

      • Yes Blex I agree about the article. You have to admit that has been quite an amazing search with a lot of ups and downs. Circus is a great word to describe it – so many crazy clowns participating. But some people just don’t get “it” and maybe never will.

  12. I want to take a moment and thank everyone for sharing their thoughts about different topics. They make me think and help clarify my thoughts on a solve.
    Shout out to JDA for his contributions in particular.

  13. hello all- I need some help-
    I have searched tarry scant, and all of my notes but I would like to know the exact quote when f said- paraphrasing-something to the effect of-

    If you follow the clues precisely it will lead you within several steps of the treasure chest.
    I believe he only stated this quantifier once, and i’m not sure if it was several steps, a few steps, etc.

    This is an important distinction to my solve, and I greatly appreciate anyone that can/will help me.
    emmett

    • Emmet: I believe you might find what you are looking for in the Epilogue. It has to do with his father and where he is buried. I could be wrong but take a look at those words and perhaps they will make sense to you.

      • Oops sorry – I misspelled your name. Were you named after that famous clown? He was quite famous back in the days……

    • Emmett, if you use tarry scant and search for “general solve” I believe you will find the quote your looking for by f…. it says

      Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. Otherwise you have a “general solve.” What do you think? F

      • Can we assume that the poem will lead us to within a few steps or feet of the treasure with this statement or am I jumping the gun?

        • Jake;

          Just a personal opinion, but yes, I think that the poem can lead the searcher to within several steps or feet from where Indulgence resides – JMO – JDA

        • Let’s not disregard the many times that Fenn has made the comment about deciphering/figuring out the clues in the poem, learning what they say, and going right straight to the treasure chest. No one is going to stumble over it. These comments came about in 2013.

    • Hi Emmett,

      Is this the comment you’re thinking about?

      Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. Otherwise you have a “general solve.” What do you think? F

      This is the only one that I’m aware of.

      Good luck,
      SRW

    • Dare I say “those words” and be banished forever by Dal and of course JDA who needs his “proof.” Well what do I care? I have Faith and I Believe so I’m going to say them…… IN GOD WE TRUST.

      Amen

      • Hello wwwamericana. In the TTOTC, “My War For Me,” page 102:

        “Why do the yellow and purple flowers flourish where no one is there to see? The grass sees, and the trees and rushing waters of the spring creek also see. What has made me think that I had to see the beauty that is there in order to confirm its existence?”

        The chapter continues, and at the end it reads:

        “So now, at last, at least for me I know. And if no one should ever think of me when I have passed this vale, it will be of no consequence, for I have finally found my way and am at peace with all of it.”

        I hadn’t thought of the phrase you quoted, but it’s possible. When I thought of his comment about “coin,” I had thought about the quarter which has Washington on it, and we’ve seen the “8.25” miles. We could consider the other coins with the other Presidents on them and if they apply anywhere. In a story on Dal’s blog, Mr. Fenn talks about the Denver Mint, if I recall correctly, which coins would apply. It’s been a while since I’ve read OUAW, and I believe it mentions Mr. Chase, which is a bank. Plenty of possibilities, and your comment could apply to all of these.

        This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

        • wwwamericana – Thank you both for these insightful posts! Thinking now about:

          The likely Grasses with Purple and Yellow flowers in the Meadow, and the Spring Creek I can see, right next to my hidey spot. In the tall Pine and Spruce trees.

          Jake – And the Nine Quarter Circle Ranch, with the private airstrip and rental cars available, out Taylor Canyon. That would be a “put in below the home of Brown” also, IMO. Especially when Taylor Creek drainage turns the Gallatin River into a Big Muddy-like bust for fly fishermen. The Spring runoff erodes the stream “Banks’ In THERE.

          And I used to have a Silver Ingot from the 1976 Bi-Centennial with “Washington Crossing the Delaware” on it. Certainly worth the cold. It had a 99.9% fine stamp on it. And there is an Eagle on the back of the original quarter design with Washington on the front. I think there is a Double Eagle in the bronze chest. To represent that Eagle’s Vision destination for Humanity, that I posted about with the Infinity symbol behind it.

        • pdenver – And is your hidey spot located in what Forrest refers to in the second quote as a “vale” or Valley? Mine certainly is. My Pyramid hidey spot overlooks that valley view.

          • Hello Lisa. I’m glad to hear your location has these things which have been posted.

          • Jake – Michael Gregory is of the Hudson River School, like Eric Sloane was, and also likes to paint landscapes with old buildings and barns. Stopped to use a restroom next to a local gallery here, and this “Gallatin” painting by Michael was front and center in the foyer.

            Does this look like any location you have seen in your searches?

            https://photos.app.goo.gl/sfbVXMFVjR9461j86

        • pdenver,

          Nice observation. I have read the TTOTC many times over….never caught this. To me this is a hint.

          I have been to the Rockies in early July and have seen an abundance of yellow and purple flowers beside the rushing waters of a spring creek. Took pictures for my wife. Never crossed my mind of a connection until your post above. I believe FF said he hid the TC in the summer…possibly about the time these flowers bloom.
          Before the comments flow….I know summer doesn’t begin on a calendar until June 21st….anything before this could be considered Spring, but most people regard the start of summer after school lets out at the end of May or early June.
          FF said to the class of students via email that he hid the TC in summer. To kids, this would be after school lets out….and not official/calendar summer.
          So FF could have hid the chest before June 21st and could have seen a spring creek with the flowers and then said he hid the TC in summer which could also be before June 21st.
          Just my opinion.

          • JDA..I thought this reply thread might be exhausted but maybe not yet. Yes, the word ‘AS’ might mean ‘since’ or possibly ‘because’ or ‘in the manner of’ .. all of which reference something that happened previously. It might be something benign & incidental or it might be significant & causal. Every word is important, so why did FF say “As”? As what, as how, as when or with whom? Hope this clarifies why I think this is an important 1st word.

          • OS2;

            I 100% agree that the word “AS” is quite important. I see it as a warning – AS = Since I went alone in there (Implied – so too must you be alone as you go “in There” – JMO – JDA

          • Hello Tarheel Searcher. I apologize for missing your comment earlier today. My family and I have seen beautiful purple, yellow, and red wildflowers around the 3rd week in June while traveling to Yellowstone, entering from the southern entrance. The hillsides come alive and are absolutely breathtaking. I wish you and your family luck in your search.

          • JDA, so you see the word “AS” as a helpful instruction by FF to the searcher of how to approach the hidey place. I did too for a long time, but as time goes by, I think that first stanza may not the somewhat empty introductory stanza most think it is. So I continue to milk the cow.

          • Hello OS2 and JDA. Enjoying the discussion about the possible meaning of “As” and why Mr. Fenn used the word. To me, it seems to imply a time past.

            OS2, when you mentioned, “with whom,” are your thoughts about possibly a family member or friend(s) mentioned in the book?

        • Pdenver…. You thought of the unseen yellow & purple flowers? Funny, I thought of the unseen generals at the front line. pg88

          • Hello OS2. I had to go back and review this. It’s true he stated not seeing generals at the front line. What are your thoughts to the “unseen” things he’s mentioned in the book? What are we not seeing?

          • Thats a tricky one Pdenver….to marry our feet to a spot on a map is like our finger touching the nose of GW…. it’s a hint, a touchstone to some other dimension where we come to know things. I think the keyword might be ‘hint’.

          • PS. At the time of writing TTOTC & the poem, FF didn’t draw a big distinction between hint and clue. I think that was forced on him by the search community. IMO its an artificial distinction.
            He does make a big deal about thinking… for an hour before arising, logic, analysis, imagination; the mental realm, anxiety, shock, love, etc.

          • Hello OS2. This is a good thought. Touching the painting, the story suggested the eyes were closed, yet we’re able to visualize. I was trying to find Mr. Fenn’s comment over at Jenny’s where he comments about having his eyes closed and was still able to see the spot vividly (paraphrasing).

          • pdenver,

            Yes I found what you are referring to over at MW

            ” Both the treasure and its hidden location are so vivid in my mind that I don’t need to see them with my eyes again.” f on 8/26/2016 under featured questions.

          • Hello CharlieM. Thank you so much for finding it. I hadn’t realized Mr. Fenn stated this in 2016.

            Hello OS2. Mr. Fenn has suggested we need to think. You brought up a good example from the book.

          • For me, stanza 1 boils down to 2 options which have an unseen depth that stymie me:
            a) I HINT or I CAN HINT
            b) AS I HINT or AS I CAN HINT

            Whether its the timing of either I AM or I CAN … does not trouble me too much … yet. Its the AS and the HINT that are troublesome. And, there is also a long-shot that the ‘I’ is not FF.

          • Oh my goodness, CharlieM. The year surprises me because when I was trying to look for the information, I was looking into the years of 2017 and 2018. Gosh, it doesn’t seem he said this so long ago.

          • OS2;

            You say that the ” Its the AS and the HINT that are troublesome.” Why? What is your interpretation of “AS”? For me, it is “Since” – “Since I have gone… and (I) or (I CAN) hint of riches new and old.” I personally so no problem. What problem do you see? Or, (AGAIN) how do you interpret “AS”? – JDA

          • pdenver – Like how my “IT” has a WWWH at either end, North or South. The Madison River and all rivers gushed South, during the catastrophic Missoula Floods. But then the Southern Montana lands lifted, causing all those rivers to flow North.

            Three Forks, MT is my ‘X on the map’, my reverso-WWWH, my blaze, my home of Brown, my heavy loads and water high…

            You could even begin there, as Cynthia found out last April, with the Gallatin River as “IT”, and take the Gallatin River, canyon down, about 91 miles as TFTW to Baker’s Hole in West Yellowstone. That is certainly more than Forrest’s 10 miles from the TFTW preface. Even though Forrest and Donnie Joe walked that distance one Summer.

            But the Missouri River is aka “Old Muddy”, just like my “IT” is aka “Big Muddy” to fly fisherman. And those Three Forks at its source are mountain tributaries with Blue Ribbon Flywater. And they’re cold. They provide the “home of Brown” for that reverso-solve. And then there is the Blackfeet battle with the Sublette Party on the Gallatin, when Joe Meek escaped into what is now YNP.

            And I discovered the solution for my “heavy loads” in that solve last night. While at a presentation by the Tribal Judge of the Shoshone Lemhi tribe. That is Sacagawea’s lineage. There is a great statue of her sitting with her son, Pompey, at the park in Three Forks.

            The Buffalo Jump at Three Forks:

            https://www.atlasobscura.com/places/madison-buffalo-jump-state-park

            He said there is a Medicine Wheel above the Buffalo Jump at the Sweetwater River, FYI.

          • Hello Lisa. Thank you for your informative responses. I greatly appreciate them. You’ve mentioned metaphor. I thought Mr. Fenn stated there wasn’t any metaphors to be considered in the poem.

          • Lisa, I tried to find the information about metaphors and I seem to be having some difficulty. I’ve seen where Mr. Fenn mentions the treasure chest isn’t a metaphor (paraphrasing), but I cannot seem to locate the specific information. Because I cannot locate it, I need to voice this as an opinion, offered as a thought. I hope others will be able to locate the information I’m having difficulty finding.

          • Lisa… I’m winging it here, but I think when I read Osbourn’s Journal, he said he escaped West to Stinking Creek. I never found Stinking Creek (I dont have the right maps), and my recollection may be wrong….. does someone have the book & can correct me?

          • Hello Lisa. Thank you for your help. It appears in 2017 I was mentioning whether Mr. Fenn stated there wasn’t any metaphors, yet, there he uses a metaphor in his response. I believe someone posted about Richard Eed’s interview with Mr. Fenn in regards to metaphors. I think the gentleman is going to drive me totally crazy. (Giggle.)

          • pdenver – You are most welcome. I enjoy helping.

            And now I will invoke Albert Einstein:

            “A question that sometimes drives me hazy: am I or are the others crazy?” -Albert Einstein

          • Luckily, I have no need to lean on Einstein’s quote. I’m able to answer myself. 🙂

          • OS2 – Here is the rest of that section from the online book; the part after the “Go in peace” with the Blackfeet and the American flag on the ridge. I posted that part previously (“halt” is mentioned):

            I cast a glance along the high range of hills which projected toward the river from the mountain and discovered them standing on a line on a line on a ridge in their center stood a small pole and from it waved an American flag displaying a wish to make peace about 30 of us walked up within about 300 yards of their line when they made a signal for us to halt and send two men to meet the same number of theirs and treat for peace. Two of the whites who could speak the Blackfoot language were appointed to negotiate while the respective lines sat upon the ground to await the event. After talking and smoking for half an hour the negotiators separated and returned to their respective parties Our reported them to be a party of Pagans a small tribe of Blackfeet who desired to make peace with the whites and for that purpose had procured the flag from an American trading post on the Missouri they were 45 [in] number well armed and equipped. We gave them a general invitation to our Camp which they accepted with a great deal of reluctance when they were informed of the battle on the 10th but arriving at the camp and receiving friendly treatment their fears in a manner subsided. After Smoking several rounds of the big pipe the Chief began to relate his adventures. He said he had been in several battles with the whites and some of the party were at the battle in “Pierre’s hole” on the 28th of June last in which there was four Indians killed on the spot and eight died of their wounds on the way to the village but he denied having any knowledge of the late battle but said there was several parties of the Blood Indians lurking about the mountains around us They stopped with us until nearly night and all left except one who concluded to remain. 13th We left the Madison Fork with Mr Bridger’s Camp and ascended a small branch in a West direction through the mountains about 20 Mls. and encamped on the divide After we had encamped a Frenchman started down the mountain to set his traps for beaver contrary to the advice and persuasion of his companions he had gone but a few miles when he was fired upon by a party of Blackfeet killed and scalped. 14th Travelled down the mountain about 16 Mls NW. and encamped on a stream called “Stinking Creek” which runs into the Jefferson fork of the Missouri. After we had encamped some trappers ascended the stream but were driven back by the Blackfeet .

          • pdenver – Betcha Forrest likes this one:

            “Begin at the beginning,” the King said, very gravely, “and go on till you come to the end: then stop.
            – Lewis Carroll, Alice in Wonderland

            NearIndianaJones – Do you think Carroll meant, “full stop”? Or halt? Or maybe, ‘period, thee end’? A period kinda looks like a Circumpunct for •GOLD•

            Giggles for Jerry.

    • @emmett. There’s this —

      Chicago radio WGN interview, March 2013: m http://lummifilm.com/blog/WGN2013.mp3 m
      Minute 10:45,
      Q: Does the book give me any more information than I would get from the poem?
      A: “There are some subtle hints in the text of the book that will help you with the clues. The poem will take you to the chest but the book by itself won’t.”

      So, ‘the poem will take you to the chest’ is mentioned, but nothing about ‘several steps’.

  14. Thank y’all for the comments. LOL – I haven’t been banished yet so I will keep going…….

    I STILL BELIEVE IN SANTA CLAUS (Father Christmas) – I may be old but hey what’s wrong with dreaming. It worked for me when I was a child – long ago in my youth.

    I have quite a list – cause I write it all down in my Big Chief tablet so I won’t forget. So many things to remember – favorite memories, special quotes, beautiful pictures and the list goes on and on.

    Perhaps someday, I will share.

  15. Let’s coin a new phrase. You can’t have a “correct solve” unless you can knowingly go to within several steps of the treasure chest. Otherwise you have a “general solve.” What do you think? F
    I think each clue gets you one step closer to a correct solve. It’s that tricky Texas two step that always makes me skip a beat. So what’s so wrong with a “general solve”?

  16. Anyone want to talk about the hints in TTOTC?
    What chapters stand out to you? Forrest ( I believe) said that there were a couple of hints in the book that would help you with the clues, although I can’t find the quote.
    For me “Gypsy Magic”and “No place for Biddies” are a definite. Buffalo cowboys is a definite maybe

    • TTOTC, “Gold and More,” page 133:

      “There are also other subtle clues sprinkled in the stories.”

  17. wow-
    Thanks a lot for the help with my quote question.
    several steps- more that 2, but not many more-
    steps = 3 feet?
    3 steps x 3 feet= 9, 12, or 15 feet.

    I believe he said (paraphrasing) that it would be unlikely that a searcher would be within 15 feet of the chest and not find it.
    hmmm

    • emmit;

      Here is the quote you wanted – Forrest once said: “I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.” – JDA

      • Hi JDA,

        That quote always seemed awkward to me a little bit.

        When he says “anyone”, is he talking about serious searchers, or is he talking about just “anyone” (non-searcher) who just happens to be passing by?

        I never really knew which way to take that one. (IMO).

        SRW

        • My answer is either. If you are a searcher, who just happens to be in the vicinity (within 12) of the treasure, unless you KNOW what you are looking for, and EXACTLY or precisely what you are looking for, you will walk right past it. The same for a casual visitor to this area. You MUST know what you are looking for, and know precisely what you are looking for, or you will walk right past it – JMO – JDA

          • I generally lean that way too. But, on the flip side, if “anyone” (non-searcher) can get to within 12′ and could also find it, that could say a lot about how the treasure chest is “hidden”, or not. (IMO).

            Just trying to consider both sides of the statement. (IMO).

            SRW

          • SRW;

            My statements say that NO person is going to get within 12 feet and accidentally find it. A visitor will not be able to accidentally SEE it, (and thus find it) and unless a searcher knows exactly what to look for and where to look, even a searcher will not be able to accidentally find it – JMO – JDA

        • SRW,

          I believe F said, “Nobody is going to accidentally stumble on that treasure chest. They’re going to have to figure out the clues and let the clues take them to that spot!”f Interview on KOAT news on 4/27/2015. interview.

          Seems to me there is a little bit of conflict with the statement JDA provided above. I believe f was referring to seacher’s, not sure about people in general.

          • CharlieM;

            My statement would apply to your statement also.

            Whether a searcher or visitor – “Nobody is going to accidentally stumble on that treasure chest….”

            and then – like both of us said:”…hey’re going to have to figure out the clues and let the clues take them to that spot!”f Of course, a visitor would not have figured it out (like a searcher MAY have). We are saying the same thing – JMO – JDA

          • Thanks CharlieM,

            I agree that it’s not likely that a passerby could find the chest, without having solved the clues.

            I was just trying to examine Forrest’s comment, from two different viewpoints, based on the words that Forrest used.

            All IMO.
            Thanks,
            SRW

        • SRW, I think it could also be what you say. Does that confirm that it’s not buried? If ‘anyone’ comes to within 12 feet of the treasure will ‘likely’ find it. I don’t know but that tells me one of two things, it is not camouflage and exposed or there is a very ‘obvious’ blaze/marker right on it. No?

          • Hi Oz10,

            That’s kinda where I was trying to go with all that. In the end, it really does depend on what Forrest’s use of the word “anyone” is. (IMO).

            Like I mentioned above, I was just trying to look at his statement from both sides, based on the actual words that “he” used.

            I think it’s important to do that. It helps me to make sure that I understand exactly what he is saying by trying to understand exactly how he has chosen to say what he says (word choices, word meanings, etc.,). (IMO).

            SRW

  18. Gonna have to really settle down and hit the books AGAIN. I mean really hard.
    I feel like I have been going in circles and have nothing to support my ideas.
    You’d think one of these days that I would latch onto a solve that really works.
    Just sooooo hard to make it fit just right. (Kinda like my pants!)
    Now if my hubby would turn down that annoying TV – it’s so dang loud.
    And of course I like to eat while I’m thinking but since I am watching my weight, guess I better go with healthy snacks like blueberries, strawberries, and apples.
    Any of you have any brilliant thoughts on the matter that you would be willing to share?

    • WWW.

      You say: “I feel like I have been going in circles and have nothing to support my ideas.”

      Question: Are your ideas based on a logical approach to solving the poem?

      We know that Forrest has said “Begin it where warm waters halt…” is the first clue.

      Question: Are these six words truly the first clue?

      Unlikely, since there is no punctuation following these six words. So, is the first clue actually, “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down”? Again, at least for me, since there is a comma at the end of this line, I continue on and say that “Begin it where warm waters halt And take it in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk.” is the first clue.

      For me, I felt that I had to fully understand what the first clue was before I moved on. SO, for me, for my first clue I need a WWW (like your screen name), I need to figure out what “halt” means; I need to have an associated canyon that goes lower in elevation or goes south (must decide which, or look for one that does both, AND I must figure out what “Not far, but too far to walk” means – ALL in one clue.

      This is a lot to wrap your head around. Forrest has said that there are many places WWWH – and most are north of Santa Fe. This is helpful, but not much – but at least it is a place to start.

      Recognize that there are at least three or four elements to the first clue. Figure out what these elements are. THEN try to figure out what each element means. Once you figure out the first element, will the next one mesh with it – If not, back to square one.

      Is this too simplistic? I don’t know. I only know that this approach worked for me in the beginning – Hope this helps – If not, sorry – JMO – JDA

        • Wisdom???? Are you talking to the same guy that looks back at me in the mirror??? I Don’t Think So 🙂 – JDA

      • JDA,

        I can’t believe what you said above.

        How can you discount wwwh as the first clue? Forrest has told us that the first clue is WWWH. Your justification being over punctuation is a big stretch.

        You go onto to say, “Begin it where warm waters halt And take it in the canyon down, not far but too far to walk.” is the first clue.”

        I am questioning your logic? Didn’t Forrest say something to the effect that he saw 3 or 4 clues in those lines? hummm……

        Just Say’n

        • Hi CharlieM;

          For me, just because Forrest said that “Begin it where warm waters halt” (see – no punctuation) does not limit it to only those six words. He has repeatedly told us to “THINK”, and that is what I am doing (I hope). Think beyond just the words. Have a bit of imagination. and imagination is more important than knowlege.

          regarding your second question – I too can SEE more than one clue in this stanza – but SEEING more than one clue does not make it so. I have SEEN that one sentence = one clue. I have SEEN that all of the clues are only in stanzas 2,3 and 4 – SEEING things that way does not make it so.

          But then again, that is just how I SEE it – JDA

          • JDA,

            Your logic baffles me, are you sure about the results when taking the logic test that Jake Faulkner produced?

            Good luck in your search!

          • JDA,

            I find it hard to believe, at least I posted my score and all you have to say is YUP.

          • CharlieM;

            I posted that I was not perfect, but close. I do not feel the need to post my score. I was happy with it, I need not your or others accolades – Nor do I need to brag. I was happy with my score, and that is all that counts.

            If you need an atta-boy from me or others – OK – “Atta-boy CharlieM – You done good – You got a perfect score”. That atta-boy and a couple of dollars might buy yourself a cup of coffee – JDA

          • JDA,
            It appears you are once again changing your interpretations of the poem and statements to suit your area.
            I’m baffled at your flip flopping of the poem and statements through the years.
            Good luck JDA, you will need it IMO.

          • Jake;

            What is it that Forrest said? “Complacency is the misuse of imagination.” 🙂 JDA

          • I get it now JDA.
            I see exactly what you’re trying to do before your next trip.
            😉

        • Hey guys,

          I’ll just jump in here real quick, against my better judgement, and say in regards to Forrest’s 3 or 4 clues comment.

          Here’s what Forrest said after Ms. Mills recited the entire second Stanza, then commented that it seemed like a couple of clues to her (I know you both know these but here it is anyways).

          Forrest said: “that sounds like 3 or 4 to me” and then he laughed (almost hysterically, in my opinion).

          Anyways, he said “sounds”, for accuracy sake, for whatever that’s worth.

          Words matter (IMO).

          All IMO,
          SRW

          • A couple of follow up thoughts.

            If (and I said if) Forrest had agreed with Ms. Mills suggestion, that there were only a couple of clues in that Stanza, would Forrest have been giving too much away at that time, if he had agreed with her? If she had guessed correctly? Or, would that have been too much of a clue?

            Could Forrest have answered, the way he answered, in order to deflected what Ms. Mills had said?

            Or

            There are three or four clues Stanza 2. And we have to choose which it is. Is it 3 or is it 4?

            Just throwing that out there.
            All IMO.
            SRW

      • How do you know “this approach worked for me in the beginning”? Did
        you definitely, without any doubt, correctly solve the first clue? And if so, how would/could this be verified? Please pardon my skepticism. Good luck to you (seriously).

    • Hi WWWAmericana,

      I’ll add this idea, in addition to JDA’s.

      You probably have already seen this Q&A by Forrest, from July 2014, but I do like this one, as it seems to refer to some of the earlier clues in the poem. (IMO).

      Question:

      Do you think that someone who is sure about the location of the home of Brown could reverse engineer where warm waters halt? Ben Raylor

      Answer:

      Thanks for the question Ben.

      If you are sure about the location of home of Brown why are you concerned about where warm waters halt? But to answer your question, sure you could and a few searchers might throw in some gas money for a percentage of the take. Good luck. f

      Hope that helps.

      Good Luck,
      SRW

  19. Why would Forrest single out wwwh then when he said this?- Forrest has said that there are many places WWWH – and most are north of Santa Fe.

    Or other quotes that refer to just wwwh.

    • FD;

      When you do a picture puzzle – where do you begin? The answer probably is – you begin by finding all of the border pieces, then fitting them together until your “Frame” is finished. This is logical.

      Why did Forrest say to begin at wwwh? because it is logical.

      If you want to go from Albuquerque, New Mexico to Los Angeles – Where do you start? You start at Albuquerque – of course. Would you start at Flagstaff Arizona? Probably not.

      “Start at the beginning.” Logical. Forrest knows that WWWH = Albuquerque, so THAT is where you must start. You can Not WISH your car to Flagstaff, and begin there – It just ain’t gonna work – JMO – JDA

      • JDA,

        What??? This isn’t a picture puzzle, the poem is a map. The right map comes about only when one has nailed down the first clue wwwh. Because it gives you a geographic location to start, you then use the map that coincides to continue on in finding locations on that very map that are referenced in the poem. Thusly you are marrying the poem to a map.

        Frankly I see no boarders in the poem that indicates there boarders.

        Just Say’n

  20. JDA-
    Are you still where I think you are? Let me know when you are searching so I can make sure to go the day before.:). And quit giving away the goods on the photos for Pete’s sake!

    • Copper;

      Probably – email me and I will confirm or deny.

      I could list page numbers of PIC’s that “I” think are hints, and I would bet a bunch of bucks that you, Joe Schmow, or anyone else would not see in the PIC’s what I see – Well, a couple are pretty obvious. 🙂 JDA

  21. JDA, and Charlie M, you both are correct IMO when each of you stated your opinions about the clue “Begin it WWWH and take it in the canyon down”.However, IS “it”, the journey in the canyon down, or is “It” something else that is the IT? Riddle alert, Yes, it is the first clue and perhaps the second and even a possible third. It is a possible (subliminal) division of the clue, which begs a question, no begs a definition of what “it” is… imagine that It could be that this second It is also describing; ‘Not far, but too far too walk” . What kinda of an it is that?

    Railroad crossing without any cars. Can you spell that without any R’s? Riddle, THAT is the correct answer, even a kid can get it. A kid like Tom Terrific gets it.

    This line is like the first word in this poem and the “blaze line” wise and in the middle as well, ao follow me now “AS” is presented as “present tense” but it actually describes something in the “past”. Now hold that thought and read this: IF YOU “HAVE” BEEN WISE AND (have) FOUND THE BLAZE. This clever riddle, it is also past tense, something you “should have” found earlier, either in this poem or through some “Wisdom” that time has a hand in, a subtle, yet effective piece of rhetoric. “Present tense” is presumed and used in All the earlier lines in stanza 2, and 3. Did we forget about “timing and tense” in our riddle, yes we did and now that we have FOUND out about it, is it the key and not just a hint? Everyone notices the only two words that do not rhyme, halt and walk, why did ff use it anyway? This RIDDLE’S structure need it.

    TT

  22. The term déjà vu is French and means, literally, “already seen.” Those who have experienced the feeling describe it as an overwhelming sense of familiarity with something that shouldn’t be familiar at all.

    AS, I can keep my secret where?

    And the end of all our exploring. Will be to arrive … And know the place for the first time. … When the last of earth left to discover. Is that which was the beginning; Time.

    TT

    • Tom Terrific – Nice!

      Time waits for no man.
      Time is of the essence
      Time is relative.
      Time is money.
      Time is slipping away.
      No time like the present.

      • Tom Terrific – And:

        “IT’s’ about time!

        “For Whom the Bell Tolls”..

        “IT tolls for thee.”

        That last part was Hem, I think…

        Ring the bell loudly, Senior Terrific!

        • Tom Terrific – From the Moby Dickens interview:

          Female: Could you tell us more about what’s in your book like it’s not just the poem but it’s a memoir right?

          Forrest: “It’s a memoir. I never did go to college. I prayed for D’s in high school and nobody ever listened. I graduated because my father was the principal. I never did read the great books. I talk in my book about Hemingway and other writers that are very internationally celebrated and so I went down to the book store and I got a couple of those books and I started to read them. I told myself, “These things are no good.” For Whom the Bell Tolls, I read about a third of that thing and threw it in the trash. I started to wonder, “Why does everybody?” … You may think those are wonderful books. I’m little bit weird. I’ll have to admit that.”

          At the same ‘Time’ you were posting on this thread, I was over on WWWH posting about homophones in the Poem with this line:

          If you’ve ‘bin’ w’Eyes and found the blaze

          I asked what book and magazine Forrest threw in the trash. You named “Time” and I named Hem’s book for you now.

          Great minds think alike! Thank you, Einstein, for inspiring us with Imagination and knowledge.

          • Lisa, Einstein often wrote in the 3rd person: “A person who never made a mistake never tried anything new.”

            Hemingway was a master of the metaphor and his descriptions were heart gripping, gritty portrayals of real people in tough situations, which proves the ff quote that those lessons learned from mistakes later ((TIMEWISE) in life are often paid with a higher price tag. Yes, great minds do think alike, and your’s is firing on all cylinders.

            TT

    • Tom,

      A couple a years back when I first realized I had most of the poem clues solved, I had noticed that this poem takes one through time. From the first clue “where warm water halt” and even “it” has has a place in “time”. Just about every clue has a different time link, and now that you brought this back up in my mind I am now wondering now if that maybe the “blaze” is not also related to “time”.

      With what I “have seen” in my photos of my last time out, I can now be “wise” and realize that the two possible blazes that I can see in those photos have a history of “time” connected to them. One it took “time” to create, and the other is connected to a piece of “time” in that areas past. Guess I will find out soon enough if one of these is going to give me a place in “time”.

      Thanks for reminding me of my past thoughts Tom, and good luck.

      Bur

  23. Searchers, this is not just a poem about time, it is about Forrest’s time, his past, his present and his (and our) future, that is the message of his poem, it is a puzzle to be sure and a Riddle to be solved, a map to be seen with a mountain range to be climed, and saved for future explores. Think of it this way, how does one solve a puzzle? Begin it at the WWWH and it is clear to me now that this is a 3 dimensional and multidirectional place called a Border.

    A puzzle, a picture, a riddle and a comprehensive map of the past future and present. Seperate the 3 dimensions with our imagination, we must so that some day we may know that Special Place where the blaze stares us in the face. Covering up Philly with the rule of thumb and making a promise to a 300′ clearing above a waterfall are all purely imaginations that time, like throwing your watch away, thanks Easy RIder for the metaphor.

    Why did we not see it before?

    TT

    • Tom,
      Although I will agree that the “big picture” does involve a place that the “times” for Fossest there has a few meanings with related times in his life. Some of those are in the TTOTC book but also some in the scrapbooks here at hoD. But as I see it the poem is basically taking the searcher ( the redneck and all his kids) through like a lesson in “time”, that can be learned along the way to the treasure.
      “What if” this poem is more about the kids and their imaginations (like Forrest when he was young) to enjoy the places, people and things that “time” forgot.

      As usual all I say Tom is just food for thought . But again thanks for your “time” comments.

      Bur

      • Hi Bur;

        Talking about “time” – When I go to my search area, it is like going to the bottom of the Grand Canyon in many ways. It is a trip back through “time”. There are sedimentary layers that tell of a time when this area was a shallow sea. There are layers of sandstone that tell of when this area was a desert, and one can even see basalt nodules that were formed when Mother Earth was first being formed 4.6 billion years ago. What a lovely “Trip through time”

        If this chase is about “time” then Forrest picked a good place – IF (and that is a BIG IF) I am anywhere near where Forrest secreted Indulgence. I know, there are a million places like mine in the Rocky Mountains – but I can dream can’t I?

        Speaking of time – How about the 10 – 2 – and 4 that Dr. Pepper used to talk about? Might that be important since Dr. Pepper was Forrest’s favorite drink – along with Grapette? Just musin’ JDA

        • JDA,

          I’m not a big fan of soda, just kidding. The only thing I see is Forrest putting a can of Dr Pepper in the creek to cool while he explored the area he hid the chest. Not sure about 10-2-4 meaning.

          Yes, the sediments layers in a “wall face” can be whitish in places and possibly be considered a “blaze” if seen at waterhigh. I have considered that too.

          Bur

          • Thanks for the post Bur. Hope you have a great day, and a successful search when you put BotG soon. JDA

        • TT and JDA – My WWWH is in the Yellowstone Caldera. And YNP and my “IT” are strewn with Glacial Erratics from the “water high” after the Ice Age. The land before time. Well, before we as Homo Sapiens thrived there, anyway. I could go on….where is Douglas Preston, when I need him?

          • TT and JDA – I was glad to have my fellow searcher, Donna, investigate my massive Wise Owl glacial erratic blaze, located across from the rest area next to Campfire Lodge, one Summer. She met a fly fishing guide with a “brave and in the wood” canoe, which they used to cross to the opposite bank on the Madison River. That blaze was in that video I posted of Bob Jacklin catching that 10lb Brown trout right there.

            They did the “look quickly down” thing all over that area. And My Grizz didn’t even cross the Cabin Creek confluence to eat them all up! So that was nice.

            I sat under the trees in that same rest area, when there weren’t one or two cars there with fly fisherman, looking at my erratic Owl, watching fly fishermen next to the islands just upriver, and observing the much better Ospreys using their God given talons to make all of them look bad.

            I just found a quote this past week that Forrest sat under such a tree, writing a note to Peggy, and watching what he described to be this same scene with the Ospreys vs. the trout. Now I miss that doodle he did in my Fenn Doll Collection custom thank you card even more.

            But who needs personal possessions, anyway, right? I would rather have my memories in Nature.

          • Lisa – Doesn’t your quote come from the chapter in TTOTC named “Flywater?” I think it does.

            Starting at bottom of page 121 – “But as I got older, I realized there were many moments to remember, like the time I sat under a tree on the Madison River and watched the osprey dive for fish as I wrote a note for my wife who always allowed me the luxury of doing the things I thought were important”

            And ends with this quote a page or two later – “And when my tackle box is closed at last and the cadis hatch is gone, I will rest through all of time and space, pillowed down and scented in, with a smile that comes with remembering the special things that brought me to that (this) final place, one which was knowing Peggy was there, somewhere waiting for me.” f Last paragraph in that chapter –

            These two quotes have always seemed special to me – I think that ALL of the “Flywater” chapter is special. – JDA

          • Tom Terrific – As I was reading the quote Dal posted about Joe Meek in YNP among the Hellish geysers, and while considering my “heavy loads” in the form of glacial erratics, I thought of this old adage:

            The expression ‘come hell or high water’ originated in America. The first printed reference comes from an Iowa newspaper, The Burlington Weekly Hawk Eye, dated May 1882: “Since that time the best of my friends had become enemies and strangers have become friends. The devil had broke loose in many parts of the country and keeping up with the old saying, we’ve had unrevised hell and high water, and a mighty heap of high water, I tell you.”

            That massive flood up in Montana thousands of years ago sure left a lot of geologic destruction in it’s wake. But rock climbers love to practice bouldering in those humungous deposits along the Madison River. So that’s nice.

          • JDA – Thank you! I have the actual “Flywater” book behind me on a table right now. And a framed Audubon Folio.print of an Osprey catching a trout not too far from where I am sitting.

          • Lisa;

            I am sure that you know that the book – Flywater is very much different than the chapter “Flywater” in TTOTC.
            JDA

          • If you need Douglas Preston to help solve the poem, good
            luck with that. Exposing any of your solve (if it’s correct) may help someone get to the TC before you get there. As always, all IMO.

        • Tom Terrific – Or maybe “IT’s” ‘bin’ more like that Circular File, with Time Magazine and that famous bell book Hem wrote, while staying here at Sun Valley Lodge?

  24. Other than the poem describing how to locate the Trove and one of its purposes to encourage people to get out of the house and away from electronics, is the poem designed to convey a deeper significance? Is there a subtle message you are sharing with the reader and hope they realize? ~ Seeker

    No Seeker,
    The poem is straight forward with no subterfuge in sight.

    • What if… “No seeker” is the ‘subtle message’?
      Sometimes Forrest’s answers seem downright cruel!
      Sorry, don’t mean to cause you any chest pain, Forrest. ; )

      • Oz10
        Been slow here lately. Thanks for that
        Post. I see subterfuge by definition not being FF intentions by any means. That doesn’t mean there can’t be a subliminal message there. No seeker could refer to his answer in conjunction with his answer. Not sure how to explain.
        Farmer Freind says No seeker could be sbtle clue. So then the question is what could that be.
        GH. IMO

        • GH,

          I don’t see the subterfuge in his answer like everyone else does.

          Seeker= …other than to locate the Trove …is the poem designed to convey a deeper significance? Is there a subtle message you are sharing with the reader and hope they realize?

          Forrest= No Seeker, The poem is straight forward with no subterfuge in sight.

          The only purpose of the poem is to locate the trove. No deeper significance or subtle messages to be realized. That is the only way I understand that answer without mental gymnastics or thinking he just lied to Seeker. Btw Seeker, welcome back!

        • GHopper,
          I’m just trying to cover all the bases while stuck here in the dugout. To me, ‘No seeker’ (as a hint) doesn’t seem so far fetched when you consider how it is that Forrest came about the French soldier’s grave, or his sentiment of their enduring solitude; save by him. I’d be a happy camper if it implied what I wanted it to, but it always seems to peter out when going down that route.

          And by no means no am I suggesting f is dishonest. It’s just that after 6 years of dry spell searching… I’m a little leery of his ability to convince me it’s raining down my leg even though I’d swear I just heard a zipper beforehand! : )

          • Mia – It is hard to cover the bases when you are setting on the bench, isn’t it? I know it has been a dry spell but it’s raining here finally – I feel like a duck ready to go play in the rain but my squeaker is broken. Crossing the river is so much easier with web feet.

  25. Oz10, subterfuge; deceit used in order to achieve one’s goal. The Seeker quote above does not insinuate deceit, rather a purpose, a hidden message, even a deliverance if you get my drift, straight forward IMO is a confirmation of Seekers position, not a rebuff.

    TT

  26. JDA said above:

    FD;

    When you do a picture puzzle – where do you begin? The answer probably is – you begin by finding all of the border pieces, then fitting them together until your “Frame” is finished. This is logical.

    Why did Forrest say to begin at wwwh? because it is logical.

    If you want to go from Albuquerque, New Mexico to Los Angeles – Where do you start? You start at Albuquerque – of course. Would you start at Flagstaff Arizona? Probably not.

    “Start at the beginning.” Logical. Forrest knows that WWWH = Albuquerque, so THAT is where you must start. You can Not WISH your car to Flagstaff, and begin there – It just ain’t gonna work – JMO – JDA

    ——————————————————
    So with the reasoning you’re giving here, wwwh is the starting point (and equals Albuquerque in your example). You are making my point for me since f has defined a clue as something that gets one closer to the treasure. That definition of a clue by f starts at clue 1…which you just said is wwwh/Albuquerque.

    Going to Flagstaff, Az (equals canyon down in your hypothetical example) is a place closer to the treasure than Albuquerque so it must be the next clue and not part of the first clue. Two separate places. One is closer than the other to the treasure.

    • We are in agreement. The point I was trying to make though was that you would not start at Flagstaff. To go from Albuquerque to LA you must start at Albuquerque, NOT start in the middle (Flagstaff) – JDA

      • JDA,
        ~If you know where hoB is, why would you be concerned about WWWH?
        If you know ‘flagstone’ is where to be or the next step, why bother with Albuquerque?

        This seems to be the problem of folks being at the first two clues and not understanding the process. Most only assume we need to start at point A and travel to points B, C, D, E etc. However, Knowing or learning WWWsH might be much larger that it seems… however… with other deciphered theories of other clues, they might all point to a ‘section’ of WWWsH that is the correct spot to be at.
        [note; I don’t consider the idea of “the watershed” to be a “region” as much as a specific purpose, in the mountains N of SF. regardless of size.]

        A simple *example* is, WWs Halt; as the watershed of the RM’s range. Yes, a very large area [ but a specific location within the range ], with the idea of many WWWH in the RMs. Figuring out a *single* canyon, within the watershed, seems to be a must to locate the correct part of WWWsHalt. [hence why most of the ATF’s seem to talk about the “first two clues” as being solved, not *just* WWWH]
        So I can imagine a searcher explaining a location they arrived at, correctly mentioning the first two clues [because the *single* canyon produces the correct WWWsH location out of the many… those two clues work hand in hand], yet not knowing why or how they got there.. as intended by the poem… the same could explain why some have the first ‘four clues’ correct, but not understanding how they connect and/or to be utilized properly.

        ~You won’t know you have WWsHalt correct until you find the chest… right?
        Might it be, that have the correct location, of a specific spot is needed for the first clue-?- within a large area of a deciphered clue[ the big picture ]… relies knowing of the location, beforehand? A specific area of the RMs and this area’s purpose… only know of when other clues have been understood as intended.

        Here’s a question: When ya’ll go to your WWWsH location, do you simple look for nay canyon at or near this location.. or do you have a reason for that canyon?

        Seems to me most just hope there’s a canyon near by never understanding… why this canyon… out of the many canyonS in the RM’s.
        Where is the certainty beforehand, of the location if we only *pick* a /any type of WWWsH with a canyon near by?
        LOL doesn’t seem to be much of a “clue that needs deciphering” if it is so obvious.

        FD,
        I know this isn’t exactly the conversation you might have indicated… but, this topic you are revisiting, imo, is very important.

        • Seeker;

          As usual, you give one a lot to think about – Thanks for brushing off the cobwebs – JDA

        • Hi Seeker,

          I’ll take a stab at the question that you asked, but I think you may have already answered your own question when you said: “do you have a reason for that canyon”.

          You asked:

          Here’s a question: “When ya’ll go to your WWWsH location, do you simply look for any canyon at or near this location.. or do you have a reason for that canyon?”

          Here’s my thought:

          Let’s say a searcher found a WWWH. And let’s say that WWWH was located in a canyon. And let’s say there was a HOB nearby. That would be a good reason for that canyon. (IMO).

          Also, as a side note, it’s interesting to note that the quote that you provided above (about reverse engineering WWWH), doesn’t even mention a canyon. LOL.

          That’s a little bit interesting to me. (IMO).

          Good luck Seeker,
          All IMO.
          SRW

          • SRW – My fly fishing search buddy and I will not be spending the gas money to go all the way to my WWWH at Madison Junction. Didn’t Forrest say something about gas money and going to WWWH? Pretty crowded there, usually, I hear. We already determined the 13 plus miles from my WWWH to the Barns Hole Road turnoff, and we know from Forrest’s Preface in TFTW that 10 miles is too far. So, we already did these three lines I’m the Poem with “marvel gaze” on Google Earth:

            Begin it where warm waters halt,
            (Madison Junction Rivers Confluence)
            And take it in the canyon down.
            (down the Madison River, through Madison Canyon)
            Not far but too far to walk,
            (13 plus miles, is more than Forrest’s 10 miles)
            Put in below the home of Brown.
            (Put in on Barns Hole Road)

            I give you my “home of Brown”:

            https://www.mytopo.com/maps/?lat=44.6568&lon=-111.0414&z=14

            Barns Hole #1 is suitable for one fly fisherman only, so I will let my friend go “alone in there”, in her waders, first. Then I will put in after her.

            We may not float down the rest of that remote section of the Madison River, which is mostly in the Montana “Treasure State”, because we don’t have a rubber dingy, like Forrest did. We can easily get back in her truck to go camp at Baker’s Hole for the night. And maybe take a swim, like Forrest used to do.

          • Seeker – It kinda looks like that Big Brown trout at the Barns Holes is taking “IT” in the chin, doesn’t it?

            And I have been wondering where Forrest may have hidden that blue wooden boat and paddle, which Dal posted a picture of in a Forrest’s Scrapbook, I think. Maybe Dal could remind me of where on the shore of Hebgen Lake Forrest’s old blue car with the boat on top was parked? Was that the Madison Arm or the Grayling Arm, Dal?

            Maybe I can put this boat with the peeled blue paint on top of my friend’s truck instead? I found it on my glorious Spring walk along the Big Wood River here today:

            https://photos.app.goo.gl/sXk5nWvGcTX16n638

          • You picked up the missing ‘canyon’ in that ATF, SRW.

            The real question is… can we pick the correct WWWsH without having the correct canyon?
            {many WWsH {pural} vs. a single canyon} Idea.

            As you implied; if you start within a canyon, that seems to answer the dilemma as to what “take it in” might refer to, as more directional, than an elevation factor… and that would make “canyon down” just as important as WWWsH.., right?
            However, [ depending on how you read it ], from fenn’s other responses, can we really ‘know’ home of Brown without the first two clues??… Because it seems the canyon might be part of, related to, WWWsH.
            Even if they might be two clues… they both can mean of the same place, rather than, a need to travel from clue 1 [wwwh] down, through, around, to, clue 2 [canyon down]. Line of thinking.

            Which leads back to FD’s inquiry… Could stanza one be a small piece of the “backstory” – “As I have gone alone ‘in there’ – line of thinking? Which might help knowing a certain canyon is where we locate the Correct WWWsH [out of the many]…Yet we would still need to decipher what the first clue is, means, represents, without guess to what it might be, because we simple like where our canyon is at… and guess at what WWsH is at that location.

            I personally think..*IF*.. the Q&A about a “backstory” is needed, idea.. we need to know exactly what the backstory details, right?

            Is it just “9 clues” and knowing about “the mountains N. of SF?” and/or something else altogether different?

            This question has been asked before, but it would be interesting to hear, how many think… “Begin it where warm waters halt” refers to on specific thing or does it mean a few different things?

            Example; WWWsH is a lake and *only* a lake, or waters merging, or a waterfall, just one specific type of waters… [ pick your poison ]?
            or
            Does it mean it could be anything waters related, that is considered to “halt” in some definition of the word?

            I lean toward a single reference only, and there are many of the ‘same exact’ reference.
            IF so, that makes ‘the’ canyon down a very important, single, specific location… because it is the location of the ‘correct’ first clue’s reference… out of the many.
            Not just, any old canyon because its is at our hopeful WWsH.

          • Many good thoughts Seeker,

            I’ll take a stab at a couple more of your questions, for conversations sake.

            You asked:

            “Can we pick the correct WWWH without having the correct canyon?”

            My thoughts:

            Maybe, but I wouldn’t think so. How would that happen? If a searcher has truly located the correct WWWH then the canyon is there too, right? (IMO).

            Do you have a scenario where you might have the correct WWWH and not the “canyon”?

            I’m having some trouble getting my head around a scenario like that. LOL.

            Anyways, you also asked:

            “and that would make “canyon down” just as important as WWWsH.., right?”

            My thinking:

            Yes, I believe the “canyon down” is just as important as WWWH. (IMO).

            Here’s the thing. Is it a clue? Is it part of a clue? Is it nothing? Each searcher has to answer this one for themselves. Everybody’s got a different take on this one. (IMO).

            You also asked:

            “can we really ‘know’ home of Brown without the first two clues??… Because it seems the canyon might be part of, related to, WWWsH.”

            More thoughts:

            Can we really “know” home of Brown without the first two clues? I’m not sure, but I don’t think so. Forrest has said that the clues will “lead” us (paraphrased). If we are following the clues, and a searcher is at the correct place, HOB has got to be there somewhere. (IMO).

            This takes us right back to the previous question above. If “canyon down” is important, is it related to WWWH? HOB? Not far? Is it its own clue? Is it part of some other clue? Etc.

            I have always hoped that by connecting a few dots though, a searcher can hope to find some confidence with their solve. Otherwise, it’s Canasta time. LOL. (IMO).

            Lastly, getting back to the “backstory” thing. You asked:

            Could stanza one be a small piece of the “backstory” – “As I have gone alone ‘in there’ – line of thinking?

            I mentioned the other day that I pretty much read the poem in a chronological way. I could be reading it right or I could be reading it wrong. Either way, I have personally tried to milk everything I can out of Stanza 1. I don’t know if it’s the whole “backstory” or not. But there’s a few bits to be found in that Stanza, I think. The word “hint” comes to mind. (IMO).

            Good luck,
            All IMO.
            SRW

          • I re-read your post Seeker.

            Here’s one more thing I wanted to comment on:

            You said:

            I lean toward a single reference only, and there are many of the ‘same exact’ reference.

            IF so, that makes ‘the’ canyon down a very important, single, specific location… because it is the location of the ‘correct’ first clue’s reference… out of the many.
            Not just, any old canyon because its is at our hopeful WWsH.

            I agree with what you said. (IMO).

            Good luck,
            SRW

        • Seeker, to answer your question, for me, I have a spot I need to go to. Where I start is wwwh. The path to the spot takes me into a specific canyon. There are actually 3 canyons around my wwwh. The path makes the one canyon correct.
          Hence, you will have the chest before you know wwwh. The poem solve gives the spot, draw out your route/path, and go to chest.
          I think the 9th clue gives the info needed to get the chest. I think that the clues 1-8 are designed for the searcher to find a bell. (the one on page 137).And basically, the coordinates from the poem get you to clue 8, for me. I also think that a searcher can find the chest without actually seeing the blaze. They would arrive at the blaze, but may not see it, and carry-on, following the other clues to the 8th, then the 9th.
          All wwwh, and the canyon is, is the start point, reversed engineered from the spot the poem gave. That’s why the ATF, the path will be direct for the one …….etc.
          If searchers are using a map to find a coincidental wwwh, with a canyon near by, forget it. The poem has to be precise, so the canyon will be precise. Lol, I can imagine early searchers looking on some map for a canyon that has wwh references. That to me is not solving the poem, and not what I see f doing.

          SRW, what if there was no hoB just after the canyon? Would you consider that a ‘no-go”? And, what if hoB is not a clue? There seems, to me, that there are just way too many options/coincidences revolved around wwwh and a random canyon, and a random hoB. IMO, the poem would be very precise. Your criteria could yield hundreds of wwwh, IMO. How would you choose just the one?

          • Hi poisonivey,

            To answer your questions from above:

            A no HOB would indeed be a no-go for me. And I agree, the clues should be followed precisely, per Forrest’s instructions.

            And yes, there are many WWWH, and many canyon’s down and lots of random HOB’s. But that’s not how I came up with mine. LOL, I wasn’t just gonna say it out loud.

            You also asked: How would you choose just the one?

            Stanza 1 of course. (IMO).

            Happy hunting,
            SRW

          • poisonivey,

            Real quick. Did you jut write that post? The time stamp reads from this morning (11:50 a.m.). I’ve noticed that once before on one of your posts. Kinda weird.

            Just a heads up. Maybe Dal can fix it, if it needs fixed.

            SRW

  27. FIrst off the cuff, Hats off to Dal, JDA, Seeker, and all who have posted here.
    Many thought-provoking posts here. Thank you.
    As I read the many comments I noted certain things which confirmed that my
    current tangent may be the correct path to understanding the poem.
    Only time will tell as I continue pursuing this path.

    Note to Forrest: In pursuit of a path less traveled, with an open mind and books to read.
    I really like reading history.

  28. do we have a place to talk about the “grab all the bananas” thing? I didn’t see it in the Searchers Discussions list. Thanks

  29. “Grab every banana” Thank u JDA. So it appears Forrest’s father used to tell him this. Do ya’all think F is relating this to us in order to tell us to do the same? And do u all think he means this for all we do in life including hunt for his treasure?

    I bring this up because all the researching I do seems to indicate a contradiction in some of F’s actions in life (generosity for example) and this phrase which seems to indicate we should ‘make and take all the lot we can.’

    What do you all think??

    J

    • Joe;

      I see no contradiction. As a business man, he “Grabbed every banana.” He made LOTS of money. And yes, he has given a lot away, and there is a LOT of value out there somewhere waiting for someone, due to the generosity of Forrest – “Grab every banana, but be willing to share with a hungry tree-mate” 🙂 JDA

      • Hi JDH
        It was not my intent for you to tell me about your solve.
        I was just wondering if you could get out In the mountains and have some fun yet.can’t hardly wate. Clint

    • Hello Joe. I believe the “grab every banana” suggests we shouldn’t pass up opportunities when they appear in our lives. Opportunities may not come around again. If choosing the opportunity, give it all you have.

      This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

    • It might also mean “don’t slip on a banana peel in a hospital room at the end” unless you want 14 shares to laugh.

      • Backwards bike is also here. And a soda pause which back then alluded to an illegal and subliminal “you’re getting thirsty now so get up and go purchase” message. But don’t fall for it. You’ll miss the important stuff.

        • Which sums up to an upside down digamma, a 6 to a 9. Under a big W. The ultimate mark of remembrance.

          2019. See you there, maybe. 14 shares, hahahaha. Or maybe just 1 for the first.

          • FF wanted you to LIVE on this thread? Au contraire. He
            wants you to get AWAY from your computer and look for
            treasure in the mountains. It’s good when a 400-pounder
            can lose a few dozen pounds. Please don’t misunderstand my words. The only language I am very, very good at using is English. All IMO.

  30. Ok I’ll try to interpret the poem, and I am perfectly willing to travel to the Rocky Mountains and search for the treasure until kingdom come …
    but I ain’t touchin’ no bananas.

    • I think I am on the same train. For the bananas, I think they went out in the late 70s. Bad color for a car no mater how shiny it was. I liked the lime green gremlins. Hope to make the Rocky’s soon.
      We may be all in this tell kingdom come.
      Good luck
      GH

      • Krud : I forgot IMO,JMO, what’s the other ones. Don’t blackball me Dal just fun intended.
        HG

  31. Miliking the cow… or… panning for gold?

    Does line 1 inform line 23… or vice-versa?
    As … I have gone ….. alone …… in there.
    If …… you are ……….brave……. and in the wood.

    • Hello OS2. I believe there’s a possibility the two lines may suggest the same thing/place. I wonder by thinking this way, if we should consider the reverse-engineering and why the need to do so. Is there a purpose to confirm?

    • OS2 – Hey! The reverse of line 23 is the number 32! Let’s go look at that Forrest’s Scrapbook for hints!

      Oh, there isn’t one.

      But I think you are onto the “As above, So below” thing that I see going on in the Poem, IMO.

  32. Hi, Lisa, Pdenver… Makes ya’ think doesn’t it? My odometer is sooo slowing down, too much time must have been wasted on my youth. Back then I thought the R on my gearbox meant ‘Race’…..

    • Lisa, I think the missing SB #32 was Dal’s error… so the # would have nothing to do with the chase. As Above, So Below?… I don’t know what that is a reference to, but it reminds me of Captain Kidds boat being keel-up.

          • OS2 – Ok, so what if the hidey spot is just below 10k feet? Like 50 feet below, maybe? Didn’t Forrest say the treasure wasn’t on top of a mountain but could be just below it? Anyone want to Google that quote for me please? I wanna check out the “IT” part.

            SRW – Are you pickin’ up what I’m puttin’ down here??

          • pdenver – Thank you! I just found “IT” written as a quote:

            “IT’s not on the top of any mountain … IT may be close to the top”.

            The drainage sources of my “IT” up Cabin Creek, that turn “IT” into “Big Muddy” during Spring runoff, are below the top of mountains In THERE; like White Mountain and Red Streak Peak. Upper Teepee Basin collects snowmelt water from frozen “water high” and Spring Creeks emanate from high in the drainage also.

            And… again;

            “A River Runs Through IT”

          • pdenver – And that would be an example of what Forrest called a “comprehensive knowledge of Geography”. IMO.

            And I think Leonardo da Vinci might have said, “Time is a River”.

            Ergo…

            If:

            “A River Runs Through IT”

            Then;

            Time Runs Through IT.

            That was for you, Senor Terrific.

          • pdenver and Tom Terrific – That time quote was from Da Vinci’s Demons, Season I. Here is the actual time quote by Leonardo da Vinci:

            “The water you touch in a river is the last of that which has passed, and the first of that which is coming. Thus it is with time present. Life, if well spent, is long.”

          • pdenver and Tom Terrific – I leave you with an extended version of one of Forrest’s favorite quotes:

            “With the drawing of this Love and the voice of this Calling

            We shall not cease from exploration
            And the end of all our exploring
            Will be to arrive where we started
            And know the place for the first time.
            Through the unknown, remembered gate
            When the last of earth left to discover
            Is that which was the beginning;
            At the source of the longest river
            The voice of the hidden waterfall
            And the children in the apple-tree
            Not known, because not looked for
            But heard, half-heard, in the stillness
            Between two waves of the sea.” – T.S. Eliot, Little Gidding

      • Hi Lisa. Lovely photo… anything in it I should note?
        Not so sure you’re a step ahead on that flippin’ above & below thing though … See my post of October 25, 2017 at 9:19 pm in the comments of Armchair Adventures, Weeds & Roots. .. Rollin, rollin, rollin down the river

          • Hi Lisa, Well, your last post on Friday’s O&E was at 10.52… and Saturday’s at 7:15 am… so maybe you do sleep. Happy REM.

            RE: your #148411 reference…
            I hadn’t read Seeker’s BIG PICTURE story before… it’s ‘too big’ to be useful I think, but I did appreciate the vision.

            As for the 8/3/16 post by E’ (is that you by another name?) … well, thats just crazy stuff, … Masonic lore, arch iconography/fictional symbology… fun for Robert Langdon perhaps, but IMO that ripple is also too far from the golden pebble Fenn dropped in the warm halted waters.

            However, I do enjoy that you savor & share those far away, above, below, and loopy circles.

            You’re so good at all that W.Yellowstone data… can you please get some details on what that Cable Run thing was, was it a thing or just a name for a linear stretch? I’m guessing it may have had a R.O.W…. as in B-ROW-N. Ta.

          • OS2 – Yes, I am the Searcher formerly known as E Star. Thank you for the nice compliment.Did I mention my given name is Elizabeth?.

            Are you referring to the Gaging Station with the cable, where Cabin Creek meets the Madison, or is there a Cable Run in the link I provided earlier by Craig Matthews on the Madison River in YNP and beyond? I liked your Be Row ‘N spell out.

            Channeling Robert Langdon…

          • OS2 – Yup! Just Google “IT” next time. I got waders to mend, down at the Patagonia Worn Wear trailer at Silver Creek Outfitters.

        • OS2 – Thanks again, Dal! Maybe the top of that blue car really just had a hole in it? Or, maybe Forrest was putting in there, to reminisce about fishing in Hebgen Lake with his Dad? Or, maybe that’s the take out, after doing the “put in below the home of Brown” thing at Baker’s Hole? Maybe he was fishing along with those that Craig Matthews, who literally wrote the book on the Madison River, called the “Gulpers”, who troll that “no place for the meek” water route?:

          http://lummifilm.com/dodge/

          All IMO. Flippin’ a Roman As coin now, to see if I like this second solve I emailed to Forrest, or my original solve, back in March/April of 2013.

          • OS2 – A good plan is to drop a bike off at this Grayling Arm destination, put in with the blue boat with paddle at Baker’s Hole, then ride back to get the car. Maybe the bike is inside that car in the pic? Or, maybe the bike is just out of the frame, behind the photographer?

            Looks like there is access on Egret Drive, if you switch this map in the pull down menu on the left to Satellite view with labels:

            https://www.mytopo.com/maps/?lat=44.7830&lon=-111.1557&z=17

            And “there is no paddle up your creek” nearby, on Grayling Creek. Does Forrest’s cousin, Chip, live in that neighborhood, Dal?

            Still and always, IMO.

          • OS2 – Another note. Rainbow Point is directly across the Grayling Arm from where Forrest is parked in that pic. I will drive out there to look:

            If you’ve been wise and found the blaze,
            Look quickly down your quest to cease.

            But I will make it quick. And I will not stay overnight. Because one of the worst Brown bear #11 attacks happened there. A man in a tent was dragged out by his foot. It was thought his fragrant foot balm attracted that attack. Read the Bearman site on the YNP website for how to prepare, everyone!

      • Jeez.. Chasing the beginning or end is to this reply thread requires secret knowledge … perhaps a poem. But, no, not the gaging station… there is small notation on my Yellowstone map of a Cable Car Run at Riverside’s barns. Maybe it was too far to walk, but not to run back then.

        • OS2 – I posted the link for you higher up on Dal’s Big Ball of String. I posted another link earlier penned by Craig Matthews, which I found on the YNP website.

          It is easy to do a ‘find in page’ for ‘Cable Car Run’ or for ‘Lisa’ to find my replies to you under your original post.

  33. SRW, in analyzing Seekers comments at one point you stated this: Can we really “know” home of Brown without the first two clues? I’m not sure, but I don’t think so. Forrest has said that the clues will “lead” us (paraphrased). If we are following the clues, and a searcher is at the correct place, HOB has got to be there somewhere. (IMO).

    In MHO, SRW I am not sure either, since the comments about “Home of Brown” above sound to me like an assumption was made or inferred that may not be so, look at HOB this way, you may not see, or know or be lead to it from the first “two assumed clues” but some hint or event in one of the 3 Books TTOTC, TFTW or OUAT might stand out now…just sayin.

    TT

    • Hi Tom Terrific,

      Thank you for the nudge towards the possible HOB hints. I’ve only got the one book but I’ll check it out again to see if I can find anything thing else that I might have missed (I’m sure I’ve missed a lot).

      Thanks again,
      SRW

    • What type of drawing?
      All names put in a hat and someone picks one out blindly?
      Are you going to ship it or is pickup only?
      I don’t see these details on your site.
      Thanks.

      • I think so, but Jamie Jordan, organizing Fennboree can answer better. As I understand it, everyone can pre-register and at Fennboree, all the name go in a hat (or something like that) and a name is drawn. Then we all get jealous that s/he won the most awesome prize in the universe (except indulgence of course!). 🙂 But Jamie can clarify if I got soemthing wrong on it.

          • I believe so, yes. To try to manage multiple entries (one entry per person). But Jamie and Chris could answer better. 🙂

          • Pdenver, and everyone else, this contest is meant for everyone to be allowed to enter.
            There can only be one entry per person and entries are submitted via hint of riches forum, AND Chris is working on an alternative form of entry. We will announce that shortly.

      • Hi Jake, THOR is no longer a part of how to enter, if you did enter before, there should be information out shortly on how to enter for this opportunity. Happy hunting everyone. 🙂

        • Thanks Kpro,
          I did not enter because the details were not clear.
          Where will the new actual detailed info be readily available?

  34. Can someone tell me where in the books (or poem) does FF indicate that the TC is hidden in the Rocky Mountains of New Mexico, Colorado, Wyoming, or Montana?

    • Hello wwwamericana. In the book, TTOTC, “Gold and More,” page 131:

      “It’s in the mountains somewhere north of Santa Fe.”

      Mr. Fenn has later mentioned the treasure chest is hidden somewhere in the four states which you’ve posted. Dal may have the information in the “Cheat Sheet” section of his blog.

      • Almost forgot. In “TFTW,” there’s a map in the back of the book which has the four states mentioned.

  35. Here’s a good one.

    From MW, Random Words, January, 2017.

    “If you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue”. f

    That ought to clear a few things up. LOL.

    Good luck everybody,
    All IMO
    SRW

    • Hello SRW. I wonder how many people would say they know they have figured out the first clue.

      • Hi Pdenver,

        Lots of searchers, I would surmise. But, there might be more to that simple quote above, than meets the eye. (IMO).

        SRW

        • Hello SRW. I had considered his statement to coincide with his mention of the importance of figuring out the first clue. In the New Zealand interview, he said the following:

          ‘The first clue in the poem is “Begin it where warm waters halt.” That’s the first clue. If you can’t figure that clue out, you don’t have anything.’

          • Hi Pdenver,

            Yes, that’s a good parallel quote.

            Are you thinking then that Forrest’s reference to “it” is more related to the second “it”, as opposed to the first?

            SRW

          • Hello SRW. Unfortunately, I’m not sure. There are those who believe the first and second “it” refers to the journey they’re about to embark upon. Others may believe the first “it” to the journey, and the second refers to the WWWH going down the canyon. These are a couple opinions I’ve read from searchers.

          • Thanks Pdenver,

            That kinda takes me back to my “more than meets the eye” kind of idea from above.

            Sometimes, some things aren’t exactly what they seem to be, at first glance. (IMO).

            Thanks again,
            SRW

          • Hello SRW. What are your thoughts about “it” in the stanza and what it/they refer to?

          • Hi Pdenver,

            I was just toying with how Forrest said what he said.

            If Forrest is referring to the first “it”, and we don’t know where “it” is, and he tells us to go back to the first clue, then that would mean that a searcher would have been essentially stuck on the first clue. But, how does a searcher go back to the first clue, if they were already stuck on the first clue.

            But, if Forrest was referring to the second “it”, and if a searcher didn’t know where that “it” was, then a searcher could still be potentially stuck on the first clue, if that’s the “it” he was referring to. Assuming that the first “it” had already been solved.

            If the second “it” refers to the second clue, and a searcher didn’t know where that “it” was, then why would we be sent back to the first clue, if we were working on the second?

            It sounds a little confusing. I know. Sorry about that.

            I’m not saying that this is how it is. My wheels are turning, that’s all.

            Any thoughts on that?

            All IMO.
            SRW

          • SRW and pdenver – I think Forrest confirmed that same ‘what’ as “IT” for every reference he makes in the Poem;

            “If you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue”. f

            Read that aloud, stressing ‘IT’. So that goes for every ‘IT”, right?

            So, if you find the ‘IT”, in the first clue, you have found the answer to the rest of them.

            IMO. Pretty big clue to solving the Poem.

          • Hi Lisa,

            You said:

            “So, if you find the ‘IT”, in the first clue, you have found the answer to the rest of them.”

            “IMO. Pretty big clue to solving the Poem.”
            ____________________________

            Yep. I agree. That’s kinda why I was toying with Forrest’s comment. It goes against the grain with the masses. But it is what it is. (IMO).

            SRW

          • SRW – For my solve, “where IT is” seems obvious to me;

            Begin (The Madison River) WWWH,
            And take (The Madison River) in the canyon down.
            Not far, but too far to walk,
            Put in below the home of Brown.

            From there (The Madison River) is no place for the meek,
            The end is ever drawing nigh.

            Because IT as The Madison River begins at Madison Junction, where, in fact, warm waters as the named rivers do halt.

            IT flows, does IT not?

          • Hi Lisa,

            Yep. That does flow nicely.

            I have an obvious “it” as well but my WWWH are a bit different from yours.

            Good luck,
            SRW

          • SRW – Let’s do a backwards bike reverso with our IT solves:

            Begin IT where warm waters halt

            Warm waters halt where IT begins

            Both true for me. You?

            A form of logic gives this as an example:

            All Grizzlies are bears.

            Not all bears are Grizzlies.

            Is that the “bi-product” thing you mentioned, Forrest???

          • Hello SRW. Your response at 7:39 p.m. yesterday seems to make sense to me. I also have to wonder if Mr. Fenn’s statement may simply suggest if one can’t find it, meaning the treasure chest, one must start at the beginning; the first clue. Might the clues suggest they’re close? What do you think of this possibility?

          • Hi Pdenver,

            I’m not sure of how close or how far the clues are for others, but for my search area I’ve got a pretty good idea of what and where I think the clues might be so I was just cross-checking Forrest’s comment to some ideas that I had. His comment seemed to imply something slightly different for me. I think I understand it now. (IMO).

            Thanks Pdenver.
            Happy hunting.

            SRW

      • Hi wwwamericana,

        Did you have an idea as to which “it” Forrest’s comment was referring to?

        Were you thinking the waters?

        SRW

        • SRW – I was thinking more like “where.” Just the birth of some new ideas but the waters are pretty dang deep and cold.

          • Hi wwwamericana,

            LOL. Brrrrrrrrrrr!

            Maybe throw another log on the fire. Warm those waters up just a bit.

            LOL. We’ll probably all be freezing at the end.

            All IMO
            Good luck,
            SRW

          • wwwamericana,

            You said: Maybe not so much “where” but with “what.”

            Yes. That’s some good thinking there. “it”. (IMO).

            Good luck,
            SRW

  36. I have a question in hopes others will help answer because of my lack of knowledge with vehicles, please. In TTOTC, “The Long Ride Home,” page 55, in one of the paragraphs, in part, he reads the following:

    “Sometimes Skippy would slow the throttle to five miles an hour so we both could get out and run alongside the car. We did that for miles, and occasionally he’d jump on the running board and turn the steering wheel a little to stay on the road.”

    Is this possible?

      • Hello Lisa. In the book, the Fenn family did own a station wagon. In the chapter with Skippy and Mr. Fenn, it states Skippy got an old Model B Ford and they were bringing it home. My uncertainty is whether or not the vehicle would continue to move whatever distance, besides coasting, which could be what happened, for both brothers to run alongside the vehicle. It may be something so simple that I’m not understanding and I hope you and others will forgive me for asking.

    • Yes… running boards and rumble seats were part of my past. But setting the throttle…. that I dont recall, however, in the early ’70’s I flew a Cessna 175 and the throttle was on the dashboard and settable. Might have been similar on those early cars. I also remember clutch buttons & how to hot wire a car, & drove from Miami to Ft Lauderdale in 2nd gear because I didn’t know there was a 3rd gear. Daughters had to learn modern technology on their own back then.

    • PDenver-
      Absolutely. Many vehicles had a throttle control on the dash through the 40’s. It was a knob that you pulled out to control the engine RPM. It was actually just a cable attached at one end to a knob on the dashboard and the other end was attached to the carburetor. So if you wanted to run alongside the car you could take your foot off the accelerator and pull out the throttle a little bit until the car was going about 5mph and then hop out and run along side. As long as the road was straight and level things would go pretty good…but curves and hills required adjustments….Throttles were handy devices…allowed you to stretch your right foot and ankle on a long drive…

      • I believe the throttle control you are talking about is actually a manual choke. The vehicles of that era had both a gas pedal and manual choke vs: a automatic choke in today’s vehicles.

        To run or walk along side of the vehicle you could use either, just running the motor at a idle speed or a little faster with the choke pulled out a little for more speed.

        I’m not sure any of this will get anyone closer to the chest. However, it may get us there faster.

        • Older vehicles did indeed have a throttle on the dashboard. Some vehicle also had a manual choke.

        • Jim, a throttle is not a choke, and you shouldn’t assume that Dal
          was talking about anything other than what he said.

          If you are afraid to use a dictionary (i.e., to look up “choke” or “throttle”), your chance of solving the poem correctly is very tiny.

          OH!, I should say something about the treasure hunt.
          The solution to the poem appears to relate to the handles of two
          searchers: fundamental design and wildfuntear. Please think about this, as I think it’s important to FF. As usual, all IMO.

      • Hello Dal. I appreciate the information and helps to better understand this was possible for the brothers to do.

  37. I believe wwwh is the warm springs tribe reservation…Chief Joseph and the Flight of 1877 map looks like the correct one that you take down to Big hole battlefield

  38. Yes back on a lot of older cars 40s 50s & 60 had throttle on the dash kinda like
    A cruse control Clint

    • Thanks for sharing, dal. The only new tidbit of information that I picked out of this article was the fact that Forrest openly expressed his hope that someone finds the treasure while he is still alive. I hope that someone finds the treasure while is still alive too.

      • I think folks who know f know this has always been the case.

        He’ll be leaking more hints to ensure this happens. His biggest concern is passing wondering if everyone considered this just a big ruse and he a phony. He won’t let that happen. He can’t.

      • Dal – And after reading the article, I have to say that I love that Forrest is holding Willie in his arms, and that these two things are shown as being featured in his collection in that pic:

        Meowful the Sabretooth Cat

        The leather aviator jacket reverse – with the Sun blaze on one flag and the American flag with fifty STARS next to that.

        And I will do everything I can to make sure the bronze chest is found in Forrest’s lifetime. By someone.

    • Dal, If Im not on the Media Coverage page, how do I find the link to it? I’ll never remember the words ‘Media Coverage’ THX

      • Hey OS2 – You can find Media Coverage under Important Info –>Most Important Info–> about the 5th topic from the bottom.

        • Thanks Sandy. I found it…. but I’ll never find it again…. this is becoming a whole library, too huge for me. I’m gonna go finish the Barr-Muller Report…. its easier.

          While I’ve gotcha, let me say thanks for all your posts. You’re one of the ones I always try to read.

    • Thank you dal. I do read the blog from time to time. So, don’t count me out. I expect to see you in July… at Fennboree.

    • Just read this article Dal. It had a quote that seemed to be from you, “That’s why Forrest called his book The Thrill of the Chase.” I just got back from my first BOTG and indeed this first search was a thrill. On the way to my spot the adrenaline was pumping and I was so high and sure I would find the chest. Well, of course I got skunked. So the thrill of getting there was indeed much better than the thrill of finding nothing : )

      But we saw plenty of wildlife and hiked twice to my spot just in case we missed something the first time. I loved it. I am so glad I went. I will say that it certainly helps to be on good shape when hiking in the mountains, at least where I was looking.

      My first BOTG was a humbling experience. I was sure I knew where it was, then squat. Nothing. My head was like the Grinch’s heart in reverse – it shrunk three sizes. But it was still so much fun. I plan to do another BOTG in the summer. Good luck to all of you.

      J

      • I know the feeling, Joe. All I came up with was a “consolation prize” and a good laugh.

      • Thanks for the comment Joe. I know the feeling…and I agree, fun is good!! and the hunt is indeed fun as long as you can admit defeat with a smile and try another angle…

      • I know how u feel Joe so many twist and turns makes my head spin.
        Keep your chin up.

        • A Very wise man once told me.
          Do you not know that in a race all the runners run, but only one gets the prize? Run in such a way as to get the prize.

  39. You think if we put our thinking caps back on that our efforts in finding the treasure would prove to be more successful? I’m going back and read that poem again. And sit down and really study it a bit more closely.

    • I think you are smart in doing so. F kept saying go back to the poem – so many times that he said he was tired of saying that. Most if not all have memorized the poem, and so (I believe) we stop looking at and LISTENING TO the poem as closely as we should. IMO, the proper analysis will give VERY specific directions so that one is pretty certain of the correct location before BOTG.

      • JBL,
        The poem, pshaw, who needs that. Didn’t Forrest say that Scrapbook 32 is all you need?

        In a more serious vein I agree that the poem has >99% of the useful information and that the sounds of the poem are almost as important as the words.

  40. I don’t respond here much though I have been here for awhile.i started this quest in late 2011 maybe first of 2012 seems like a lifetime ago I have read a bunch and there are so many highly intelligent people on here but me I’m more of a visual person my intellect not so much I have had 35 hikes for the prize I have learned a lot about the Rockies along the way I have stayed with in the poem itself and pictures from ttotc.I have in my opinion been close and my blaze is perfect now so one more trip in a couple of weeks and I’ll hange it up if I find nothing I have loved the chase and lost a good friend along the way but time is the key to this oh how we all would love to go back to our youth and relive things not to change them but live again in those moments so go back and read the poem for what it is and forget everything you thought about it think simple not complex and enjoy the Rockies wow how beautiful they are and breath

    • Wow – how beautifully stated. The mountains ALWAYS take my breath away. So…..no matter if you don’t find the TC, you won’t be disappointed in what you will find. That is not an opinion – that is a Fact. Hi Yo Away!

  41. Do y’all find it difficult to wade through all the detours that seem to be endless as we try to think of possible solutions to this poem? It seems so easy to get side-tracked and then we take off on a dead end trail and have to go back and start over. The mud is deep. Any ideas for staying focused?

  42. Hi All;

    Well, I now know of one more place that Indulgence isn’t. Seven of us headed to Wyoming – SURE that we would find her, but alas, she outsmarted us again. Such a beautiful trip though. Saw two big herds of Elk, one moose, Hundreds and Hundreds of deer, and even three Rocky Mountain Sheep. Snowed on us coming back, but snow was very light. We had a BEAUTIFUL day Saturday.

    Hope that all enjoyed their week-end as much as we did – even if we didn’t find Indulgence, we found other treasures galore.

    To all – TRY and STAY SAFE out there – JDA

    • Hi JDA! Wow, your team got an early start this season!

      Glad to hear that you and your group had a fun excursion and got the enjoy the Rockies. Here’s to another fun season of trekking through the mountains in search of hidden treasure!

      -Blex

        • Very true. People dont understand that this is all about fun. Get out there. Commemorate fun. Support mind reading technology. And have fun

        • Hi Glad you had fun! Wyoming is magical. I have searched there several times.
          Can you share the general area? Yellowstone, Windriver? Other?
          I am headed there again soon. I have a whole new area.

    • Happy to hear you and your family had a good time, JDA. Hope you don’t give up looking for Indulgence.

    • JDA,

      Sounds like a wonderful time. Wow, a lot of animals. This is something that stays with you.

      Well another relief is you did not find the chest, and believe me that gives me hope for my search.

      Glad you had time out with so many and that is a treasure in itself.

      Bur

        • JDA,

          8 days then in the air to the Rockies.
          Since it’s been a couple years the mind is thinking of all I’ll be doing and then the search on top of that, but I am excited to have my botg once again.

          Thanks for asking.
          Bur

        • Kudos to you for your graciousness in the face of keen disappointment after much toil and high hopes. I have not always been so generous. The mark of a gentleman certainly

      • Well, Jake, it is a fun record anyway. One has to be confident going out don’t they? So, as usual I learned a thing or two. I MAY never find it, but I will keep trying, and having fun in the process.

        With confidence, one MIGHT find succfess.
        With NO confidence, one is destined to fail – JDA

        • Don’t get me totally wrong JDA, I actually look up to you highly because you get out there and try unlike others that just talk about it.
          Maybe next time you won’t be so secretive and tell everyone you’re going out on a nice vacation before you go and maybe then you will find it.

          I still think you are searching in the wrong area and the wrong state at the wrong time. I enjoy your pre-boasting when you come back from a trip. You may be learning something every trip and I envy your closeness to the search areas but I think you need to learn other things from all these trips if you want to find Fenn’s bronze box.

          • You may be right Jake. Yes, I am lucky that I live fairly close to my search area. Thanks for the post – JDA

        • “Succfess”. LOL. What a great word.

          I’ve considered myself confident. But must admit. I’ve failed to find succfess…

          Too funny, JDA.

        • “I MAY never find it, but I will keep trying, and having fun in the process.”

          It bears repeating. It’s the underlying reason for the Chase. Youtube dweebs and those seeking to profit from it fail to comprehend.

          • “We are trying to prove ourselves wrong as quickly as possible, because only in that way can we find progress”
            – Richard Feynman

            Kudos to all who are getting out there and having fun.

          • We actually saw a big bear during our recent BOTG trip. He (no cubs) was on the opposite river bank. My sister thought the river was a sufficient bearrier. I did not.

    • Never seen a moose. Deep envy for you JDA.

      Was this a two-day search? Did you camp out?

    • JDA
      Glad you had a good time, sounds like you had a lotta fun, but NOT sorry you didn’t find Indulgence! LOL

      A little part of me does hope you find it next time though. 🙂
      Be safe.

    • JDA,

      I am glad you enjoyed your trip with family. Coming back defeated again, darn! Do you start from scratch and rethink wwwh, or do you stick with the one that you have now? Or do you think about your interpretation of the poem? Is it canasta for awhile?

      Better luck next time.

  43. In TTOTC book, Mr. Fenn said that his mind likes to stay at 13 years old. I wonder if that’s when he found his special place?

      • Thanks Lisa. A lot about Mr. Fenn reminds me of a line form Taj Mahals song, Take a giant step. “remember the feeling as a child, when you woke up and mourning smiled” I don’t think he’s ever lost that sense of wonder and excitment.

  44. wwwamericana- I always tell myself to get back in the box and don’t overcook the poem if I feel I’m getting off track. I think that has been our problem all along. We made things too complicated when they aren’t. If you figure out the first clue then you should be looking at the second right after you do it.

  45. Thanks Veronica and Bur – I think I knows what you are talking about. I said once before somewhere out there that I feel like Dorothy in the Wizard of Oz – guess I just needed to find me some red ruby slippers. Now repeat after me,,,,,,,,,,,

    • Hi wwwamericana
      I don’t think ruby red slippers are going to help much,but I will
      tell you what will. Mermerize poem and then read ttotc three
      times so you are real familiar with the book then think of poem
      and how it relates to the stories.You’ll have to get on Forrest
      wave to get on the right MAP to the TC.The SB are a big
      help to if you know how to listen and think.Simplify it
      Believe me it is all there.Clint

      • Thanks Clint – perhaps I will be able to see “it” more clearly now and especially if the sun comes out tomorrow.

  46. A week or so ago I posted that I had lost interest in the search since last year’s search. Well, I dove into the blogs and my research material and I’ve gotten that spark back. A lot of it has to do with many of you on Dals blog… reading your posts have really been inspiring and helped me give myself a kick in the pants. I just wanted to tell everyone thanks for being you! Thanks to Dal for hosting this place for us to talk and thanks to Forrest for the chase!

    I have planned vacation time for the end of May but I think that it may still be too early for my search area so I think I’m going to wait a while before my final trip to search. Maybe August or September will be better. I have a really good feeling about my solve… I hope no one beats me to it!

    Anyway, I hope everyone stays safe this coming search season!
    Take care, all!!

    TimM

    • TimM,

      Glad you changed your mind about this chase. Maybe I’ve been doing this for to long, but when I see things in posts here it makes me want to understand “it” even more.

      I’m headed back out soon and my heart beats like it’s the first time with such anticipation. What makes my search area exciting is I start my search in the dark before sunrise and hike to the put in place so I can enter into that place. The reason is I don’t want anyone to notice the trek I’m taking. If being “in the wood” when it’s pitch black don’t get the heart pumping then I don’t know what will. The main trail going out is fun too because I only use my flashlight to light the trail before me for a couple of seconds then it’s off and I walk the trail in darkness for about 100′ then repeat with the light again. After I’m up inside the put in trail I sit on a boulder and wait for sunrise, drinking some coffee and eating a couple strips of jerky. What a breakfast, but hey I enjoy the quite solitude listening to the creatures of the night and the early morning calls of the birds singing to get me on my way.

      So Tim I hope your search adventure brings you some thrills too. This chase is what you make it.

      Good luck,
      Bur

      • Hi Bur;

        Your idea of starting your search “In the dark” is pretty exciting. Makes sense though. Listening to the bird calls, and maybe the screech of an OWL high up on a perch – FUN, Fun fun. – Good luck on your up coming search – JDA

      • Bur,

        I would suggest to walk the path/trail with a flashlight on continually in the dark. In the distance of 10 ft and beyond a lot of things can happen quickly with the terrain under foot is risky at best without light. Better safe than sorry, I’d wait until the crack of dawn.

        However I’ll wish you the best in your search.

        • Charlie,
          I kind of like the thrill, but in a way your right. I mainly look for eyes in the time when I have the light on. The main trail is not to dangerous, pretty straight forward. The put in trail is a little more challenging but also ok if you stay on the trail but more woods surrounding it.

          Thanks for the best wishes and the same for you.

          Bur

          • JDA,
            I have a limited timeline on my trip out there. But who knows if I get lucky there are a few searchers I’d like to meet and your on that list.

            Bur

          • Thanks Bur; I feel the same – Good luck – Hope you find all that you seek – JDA

          • @Bur @JDA — I want to read a feel-good post about you two meeting up on the trail with one you carrying the TC and the other offering to share the load back to the car, then doing so with nothing other than an offering of congratulations.

          • Aardvark-bark,
            That would be something cool, two searchers on the same “path” and meet when one is going in and the other is coming out carrying the chest.

            But only one problem, if I find the chest no one will know Forrest secret spot or how I got there unless Forrest spills the beans. This area will stay secret if I have anything to say about it.

            Sorry,
            Bur

          • @Bur — but it’s not a secret. The clues in the poem available to all of humanity lead to it.

            You get the TC because you deciphered them first, but that doesn’t mean JDA couldn’t have also done so but just couldn’t arrive at the same spot until the moment you happened to be walking out.

        • Aardvarkbark,

          Yes I see what your trying to say, but if I’m on a trail and have found the chest and there is another person heading up that trail I’m surely not going to say anything about Forrest or that I have the chest to anyone. And as far as other searchers knowing the secret spot. How would they know it’s the spot if the chest is not there??
          But I might leave something to anyone who might figure the poem out to let them know they were right.

          Ok enough with dreaming and it’s time to get ready for my botg and see if I can make this more a reality.

          Good luck,
          Bur

    • TimM – Glad to have you back! Yay!

      And my most productive searches were in late August or September. After the kids go back to school and the crowds thin out and the “water high” goes down a bit.

  47. “We dance round in a ring
    and suppose,
    But the Secret sits in the middle
    and knows.”

    Fitting.

    • wwwamericana,
      I believe this was the page that had a count down clock to give some kind of clues to the treasure solve some time back. It showed different things on it page like a house with face in the window , Dr Pepper sign and so on. Then when the clock count down finished it put up a poem in German-( not sure) and a few people here deciphered it. But never any clear answers to the site. Of course I might have the wrong site.
      Maybe others can tell you more.

      I have some pic’s of those pages somewhere. I think.
      Bur

      • Thanks Bur. Just got to thinking about sight=site. Wondered about the correlation between wherewarmwaters -halt and the www. You think maybe……………..?

        • wwwamericana,

          As far as www as in the World Wide Web & www where warm waters this has been discussed before here. People wondered if there is or was a connection. For me not in that sense.

          Lisa might be able to locate those discussions for you or possibly others can.

          Good luck,
          Bur

          • Hi Bur
            Can you say what state you are searching in or is that giving to much
            Infoe.Clint

      • That page was freaky and if someone talked about it, goofy old guy threatened to zap you! Remember. It was wierd. I don’t think forrest commented on it. But does anyone think it was a prank or anything else?

        • There are two sites: one with a hyphen between waters and halt, and one without. I believe they may both be significant in different ways. the one without the hyphen is currently being auctioned off. The one with the hyphen is presently exhorting us to carpe diem, IMO (in a very specific way).

          For better or worse (richer or poorer?) I have found that the hyphenated site is helpful and doesn’t lie. The other site has been thought-provoking in the past. Whether either site is connected directly or indirectly to FF, I have no idea.

          While I wouldn’t expect anyone to be able to solve any of the clues directly on the web, intense use of our imaginative powers may lead us to new and intriguing realms via the WWW (which is itself a vast pool of human imagination, if you think about it). I mentioned synchronicity and serendipity on another site as I believe that they have their place in our searches, and the web is as much a viable medium for that as anywhere else.

          Aside from what lines of thought might be opened or reinforced by imaginative use of external factors, the poem is definitively where it’s at, IMO. There is more information in there than I could ever have imagined. For the past 2 or 3 years, FF has tried to tell us that it’s a map. I think, like most people, I didn’t really get that, and have tended to treat his comments as referring to it metaphorically. I was wrong. It is actually an intriguing piece of cartographic art. While I don’t think it will make total sense until the latter stages of the search, it may become crucial to the final push.

          Some people will know that I have come to view the Chase through the prism of a (non-religious) spiritual quest, but that in no way obviates the need for logical analysis and accurate plotting. Can you have the one without the other? I certainly don’t believe you can shirk the painstaking application of logic and expect to get anywhere. But I also have come to realize, in my own search, that forward motion has been inextricably linked to the opening up of “passages” – pathways to the deeper realms of consciousness. The side-effects of that have been hard to deal with at times, but seeing with greater clarity is a prize worth having – whatever happens in this mad enterprise!

          The one thing I would urge, particularly to newer searchers, is that whatever else anyone takes from the poem, the two words that now mean more to me than any others are “Begin it.” Unless you do that, there is nothing to be gained. Once you have your start point nailed down, the rest may or may not fall into place, but waiting for never-to-happen confirmation or trying to solve later clues first will always result in a big fat zero, IMO. This is a game that requires action. Not to act is to be meek, not bold, not brave.

          • Vox,
            Have you discovered infinity in poem as a map?
            Sounds as though you have.
            Center justification is a must.

  48. For myself. First I though I had a walk to solve. but later realized it wasn’t. It took a while
    to figure out what everything really was and from the first word to the last word in the
    poem. Then the big problem but I reread the first 2 lines and something I didn’t
    realize was there. I learned why the 2 pairs and what the blaze is. What you are looking for
    how close you are and how you can uncover his trove. All in my Opinion Only.
    I think without it you will not find it. It will be a few hundred years.
    I don’t put much into it. its so easy to be Wrong and thousands of people have there
    complete solves. To Me TSWMG Is what the blaze is and what I am looking for.
    Yah! figure that one out. At the same time I am back to looking in New Mexico too.
    It is just easy to be wrong too. So he said he made 2 trips from his car in 1 afternoon.
    I believe he was less than 50 feet from his car.. Yah. figure that one out too..
    Ok remember finders keepers. You find it you own it..
    Stay Safe.

    • I meant twice in the poem but once on the ground.
      IMO as New and Old, Hear and listen. New and Old are different but
      Hear and Listen are the same. But both statements are true..
      And are the same but two different things. Ha. Ha. I am not making
      that up. I am not telling.. Like it matters..
      Stay safe.

    • Thanks Aardvarkbark;

      These are great. I especially liked #13
      13) Is the water in your poem warm because of a hot spring or for another reason?

      Probably one of those two reasons, but maybe not

      Just like Forrest to give an answer that is a non-answer and one that makes you think 🙂

      Loved all of the questions – good thinkin’ I wish I knew the actual answers to all of the questions – JDA

      • 17. Google ‘nigh’, get ‘near’, ‘almost’. No reference to ‘left’.

        19. Sounds like further confirmation that BOTG is required for proper solve of final X clues.

        20. More wilderness experiences, less babbling on forums and inane youtube videos! Get thee asses out into the mountains!

        • Apparently nigh can mean left when facing down stream, has to be true I read it in the internet! Lol! Happy Friday everyone!

      • @JDA — if ‘maybe not’, does that imply the clue does not reference liquid water? Marry this with 12. ‘Figure out where warm waters halt’ as guidance for ‘what to do first’. hmmm….

        • aardvarkbark – I have said that my interpretation of WWWH is the convergence point or place where a smaller body of water (a stream or creek for example) meets a larger body of water (A River or lake or larger stream) – I think that this convergence place meets the “maybe not” idea – JMO – JDA

          • but is your ‘smaller body’ sourced by a hot spring, therefore warm when it converges with the larger body of water?

            I interpret f’s ‘maybe not’ to suggest that that is not WWWH.

          • aard- it doesen’t have to be. EVERY smaller body of water is warmer than a larger body of water. A small stream or creek will be warmer just from the fact that most of it’s surface is exposed to sunlight whereas a larger body of water is deeper, and therefore less of its total surface is exposed to sunlight, and therefore is cooler – JMO – JDA

          • oh there you go flinging your high falutin knowlege of physics and thermodynamics and hydrodynamics around, JDA….

            I’m still confused about whether it’s the left faucet knob or the right one that delivers warm water at my kitchen sink.

          • JDA: ” EVERY smaller body of water is warmer than a larger body of water”

            EVERY???
            I won’t bother showing you data why your statement is wrong.

  49. My favorite was 11) Is it in Colorado, New Mexico, Wyoming, OR Montana? Answer YES, that helped a lot didn’t it, just like the rest of the answers, truthful but not helpful.

    • I wonder. Is every SB ‘truthful but not helpful’? Are all answers to six questions at MW ‘truthful but not helpful’? I think f wants it found before he passes so that he knows there was no doubt to the legitimacy and authenticity of the the Chase. His legacy can’t be accusations of fraud simply because no one could figure out the clues that he thought would lead ‘any average person’ to it. I think everything he posts is worthy of consideration in the context that he does so with the intent to provide additional hints and help achieve this objective. YMMV.

      • aardvarkbark – I agree, I think that Forrest would like it if Indulgence were to be found before he passes. I think that almost every comment, SB, discussion etc that is put out by Forrest is honest and also helpful. Can a SB be only 85% factual, and still be honest? I think so. Can answers be obscure, and yet be helpful? Sure – That is part of the fun isn’t it? JMHO – JDA P.S. aard – what is YMMV???

        • Your Mileage May Vary.

          To wit – you may not agree nor share my experience/thoughts.

          In dalspeak — “IMO”

  50. How about? 13) Is the water in your poem warm because of a hot spring or for another reason?
    Probably one of those two reasons, but maybe not

    Nice! I need a break…

    • Take a break. Soak in a hot spring. Let your eyes gaze down the canyon….

    • Since “for another reason” seems to cover all possibilities aside from a hot spring, does the “but maybe not” imply that the question as posed might have no answer?

  51. I like #2
    What books should I get?
    You should get The Thrill of the Chase.

  52. Right, Ken. That was an interesting answer. Cause the kid already knew of f’s puzzle…which is the poem and he’s asking for what would help him with the poem.

    A case could be made for why advise to get TTOTC to help solve the poem (your puzzle)? F’s answer before was TTOTC book would help because the poem was in it.

  53. Correction: F’s answer before was from a question about if there are clues in TTOTC…so doesn’t apply to this comparison.

    But, it still is a little different than what we’ve heard before I think.

    • Fundamental… Fenn’s answer was probably just what I would expect and your thought is not outlandish. That has been one of his most consistent *mainstays* over the years. Heck… even at the *TFTW Moby book signing* right after saying there are no clues…but *hints* in TFTW… that folks should read TTOTC because it helps. Many other accounts of the same as you know. There are hints that will help with the clues…

  54. Just going back to some keys events over the last several years:
    September 2012: FF says in an email “Several months ago some folks correctly mentioned the first two clues to me in an email, and then they went right past the other seven, not knowing they had been so close. This indicates to me that they had driven past it not walked. IMO.
    January 2013: Hemispheres story….FF said “Searchers have been within 500 feet of the chest”. FF narrows it down a little closer.
    November 2013: FF says searchers have been within 200 feet of the TC. Distance to the TC narrows again.
    November 2013: Moby Dickens Book Signing: FF says There are several people that have deciphered the first two clues. I don’t think they knew it because they walked right past the treasure chest. I’m not going to tell those people who they are because one of them particularly would faint I know and she’d tear the countryside up trying to figure out where they’d been”.
    From January 2013 until November 2013, they distance from the TC was narrowed down from 500′ to within 200′. Some woman, most likely with a fellow searcher was within 200′ and literally walked past it. He did not say “went right past it”, but instead “walked right past the treasure chest”.
    My theory is that from January 2013 through November 2013, someone was close enough to find the TC if they had found the blaze. Also, the “hot zones” for the searcher discussions/BOTG at the time would be a key.
    Having been on this blog for years there have been only two areas with considerable discussion and BOTG around the time frame from Summer 2012 to November 2013. One in Montana and the other in New Mexico.
    As always…just my opinion.

    • Just out of curiosity, why is “went right *past* the other seven” – 2012, different than the Jan, 2013 comment, and another comment;
      “It’s not a matter of trying it’s a matter if thinking… I mean, people figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest” Both scenarios have searchers going by other remaining clues
      In both scenario they Past the clues by walking …
      they went right past the other seven, not knowing they had been so close.

      So fenn tells us he left the car with 1/2 the trove, returned for second 1/2 at his car… all done by walking and following his own clues; being the most direct route

      Went right *past* the other sevens, doesn’t indicate driving involved … and is coincidence with the word *past* of walking past in many other ATFs
      The general consensuses is all searcher walked past same clues after leaving the first two clues

      There is another comment Q&A; why did the searchers quit?
      F~ they didn’t quit they left the poem,
      It makes perfect sense folks were at the first two clue and walked passed the reaming clues and pass the trove and kept going, they physically leafed the poem.

      • I still struggle with this. I don’t know that I have read anything, regarding when he hid the treasure, that he walked past all nine clues. I think this is a very much debated item. I think if the truth were known, it would be a game changer. So lets propose (which i believe) the clues are actual places on a map.

        [1] Did FF park, and then walk the 9 clues in consecutive order, place the chest, walk back, walk the nine clues in consecutive order again?

        [2] Or did he drive along, oh there is clue 1, oh there is clue 2, park at clue 3, and then walk from his car from clue 3 to 9 and back twice?

        Why is that important? Why would that info be a game changer if it were the [1] as opposed to [2]? Because, yes FF gives vague answers, or non-answers, etc. But I feel they are truthful.

        So the difference is, if it were the former [1] (which I don’t necessarily agree with) then combining it with the comments (it’s the most direct way, or it’s the only way i know of), one could surmise that the clues start at a no-outlet trailhead, along a no-outlet road, etc.

        If it were [2], then it violates the other comments. For instance, there are three different approaches to Madison Junction. So if (1)(2)(3) were Madison Junction, Madison Canyon, Barns Hole. Forest knows that Barns Hole can be reached from 3 primary directions. Not only one way. Hopefully that all made sense.

        I am not even sure what my original point was. Oh my point is, I don’t think FF parked at (1).

        • Yellowdog… this has been hotly debated over the years. This from Mysterious Writings Periodic words from Forrest 6/5/2017 caused even more debate about the subject.
          “To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete (completed). f “

          • ken,

            if “hid process” started exactly at parking lot it means that Forrest really followed all 9 clues from this point and he didn’t drove between clue #1 to #2 or 3.
            “Not far, but too far to walk” sentence might code something different in this case. Is it possible that some distance Forrest was just floating down the river? Just used small inflatable boat for himself and 22 lbs package. When he hid first and second part of indulgence he returned to parking lot by walking or used shuttle bus. I know that the idea is crazy but Forrest definitely wanted to make the solving of poem clues difficult process.

      • Yellowdog;

        Nothing that I have read indicates that either your #1 or #2 is correct.

        Here is all I know: “Hi Forrest,
        You once said you walked the 92 miles from West Yellowstone to Bozeman to just experience it. Obviously you were much younger than you were when you hid the treasure. Too far to walk means different things at different ages so I was wondering if you would be so bold as to give an estimate of how far you walked to hide the treasure after leaving your car: was it >10miles, between 5 and 10 miles, between 1 and 5 miles, or less than 1 mile? ~Thanks, Ron

        .
        Ron, your question sounds like a travelogue, but I’ll answer it. No, I don’t want to be that bold. But I will say that I walked less than a few miles if that will help. I just looked “few” up and one definition is “scant.” Why do I sound like I’m talking in circles?” f

        So Forrest drove SOME distance, and covered SOME number of clues. He then parked, and walked (hiked) less than a few miles.

        We know that he drove a “Sedan” – whatever that means, and we know that he laughed at himself while returning to his “sedan” for the second time.

        As far as I know, that is ALL we know – JDA

        • Hi JDA,

          you said that “Forrest drove SOME distance, and covered SOME number of clues. He then parked, and walked (hiked) less than a few miles.”
          I agreed with first statement i.e. that he drove SOME distance to parking lot but disagreed with your second statement that Forrest covered SOME number of clues while he was driving to parking lot.
          The sentence in poem “Not far, but too far to walk” might be not about driving.

          • Andy S,

            So you believe all the clues were walked? any reason in particular you believe that?

            There is absolutely nothing IMO that indicates he did or didn’t drive a couple of clues. But I have absolutely no reason to rule it out.

        • I completely agree with the first line. [1] or [2] scenario is unknown. I don’t know that I concur with your line…

          *So Forrest drove SOME distance, and covered SOME number of clues. He then parked, and walked (hiked) less than a few miles*

          Unless the the first SOME >= 0 and the second 9 > SOME >= 0.

          I mean we know he drove to get to the region, but beyond that We don’t know if he walked all the clues, or drove some and walked some.

          Which would be a huge piece of info, IMO.

          • Yellowdog;

            How about both – more or less.

            I have a “Big Picture Solve” that requires driving close to twenty miles From WWWH to the END location, and then hike for the remaining clues. I then have a Small area VISUAL solve in which I “Take it in…” Take in the view – from wwwh to “But tarry scant with marvel gaze…” and then a very short hike for the remaining clues.

            Is this the correct approach? Only time will tell – JDA

          • Let’s just say refining. Still in same general search area, just refining it into a much smaller area – JDA

      • Seeker,
        Fair comments.
        I think FF is a man who uses words carefully. By saying “went” and then “walked”, to me, is fundamentally different…..only because the way FF uses or selects his words. I believe “went” refers to going by the TC in an automobile and drove past the TC.

        • Q- Dear Mr. Fenn, Once you hid the treasure, did you take the exact same route in reverse to return to your car?”
          A -Thank you. ~ Tyler Y.
          “Yes I did Tyler, it was the most direct route. f”

          * “I did follow the clues when hid the the treasure…. ”
          * Walked less than a few mails …
          * Made two trips from his car and done in one afternoon…
          * “…people figured the first couple clues and unfortunately walked passed the treasure chest”

          IF folks did any driving from clues one or two… they all would have stopped driving at the same spot to walk on by the chest. Doesn’t that mean they would all have had at least *three* clues correct [ if not more ] to end up stopping at the same location? Yet, from 2012 to approx. 2017 all we were told is that folks got the first “two” clues correct… only by fenn’s statements, they didn’t seem to know they had those correct.

          I do understand your idea of ‘went’ however, I think that is the only time fenn used ‘went by’ while most, if not all, the other ATF’s refer to walking. So why would went mean anything else than ‘walked by or walked passed’?
          I’m having a hard time thinking ‘went’ can refer to driving or any other alternative than walking / hiking. Especially when “he” stated he followed the clues, made two trips from the car to the hide, and back to the car was the same route. While repeating to all, the clues must be followed in order, there is no other way to his knowledge.
          So It begs the question… what clues, out of the first two clues, caused folks to stop at the same location and still be able to walk passed the chest, if they are driving away from those clues? There would have to be a reason to stop down the road. That would have to be, must be, the third clue…right?

          I’m not knocking your idea of “went by” only analyzing the possibility… I just personally can’t wrap my head around how that can be done with the first two clues only.

          • Let’s clarify a few things.
            Mr. Fenn. Has said said that there are clues say 9 in the poem that will lead you to the treasure. Also he has stated that there are hints also in the poem. They are similar but are not identical. So separating them is critical. The big question is what’s a hint and what’s a clue. If those searchers or people went past the first few clues then that most include WWWH as noted first clue and so on. Or is Mr Fenn referring to hints. Maybe the treasure is located at the first clue. That has crossed my mind but it’s not there because I don’t have it. Therefore it may stay for an eternity. So be it as I have excepted that outcome and it will be only as it is ment to be.
            We chose are path. We chose are effort. We chose are goals. But we don’t chose are destiny. Even when we know we really don’t. These are my only comments and I have nothing else to add. IMO.
            Except that I’m going to see the new Avengers movie soon.
            And the third clue is not what you want.
            GH

          • Seeker, good to see you still have the same spell checker. I agree with you. When adding up all the ATF’s, the book, the poem, the only scenario that fits is walking. Park at wwwh and start walking, IMO. In fact, if we are to drive passed the first two clues, then we wouldn’t be following all the clues on our return trip. And that screams “short cut”. Everyone just needs to follow their own solves and see what they find. If people are driving close to the chest and then walking, that’s them, good by me. We are not going to change anyone’s minds, and really don’t want to. Look at all the fun everyone is having in failure, us included. Almost can’t wait to go BotG and fail again to only look at other avenues.

    • Tarheel Searcher,

      There were a few websites that had discussions on search areas or “hot zones” ,as you say, during those timelines and even before, that I have seen. Those search areas being discussed were not just in Montana and New Mexico they cover all the states.

      Tarheel, you are on to something but more research is need to understand who Forrest might be referring to. IMO

      I too have gone this path and found some whom I would believe Forrest was talking about, especially in my area of searching.

      Good luck,
      Bur

      • Tarheel,
        By the way just in case you might say Forrest doesn’t most likely read “all” the blogs, I would agree. Those searchers that I have come across said they sent Forrest their solves in their discussions.

        Again good luck,

        Bur

        • Bur,
          I agree with you. It will be very interesting to see who was close after someone finds the TC.
          I still think the person who was closest was a woman….just because of the Moby Dickens response to a question.
          Stay safe and good luck

  55. It might be the 200 feet and they and others didn’t know it. But now you do. You already
    knew which way you were going.. Imo only. I better go check JK’s site I may learn something.
    Mr. FENN. was it erosion or geology that changed the waters course.
    Just Kidding…
    Safe searching.

  56. “I hid it when I was about 80 years old and it was not difficult for me.”
    Hmmmm…

    • wwwamericana,

      That would be a nope.

      Anyway Forrest had stated that Bwwwh was the first clue. Is there another poem you have that has that?

      Good luck,
      Bur

      • LOL – I said it only once before, back in 1977, and I will say it again here.

    • a few of DaVinci’s words come to mind: “There are three classes of people: those who see, those who see when they are shown, those who do not see.“

      just tryin’ hard to be not that last one…

      -even

  57. Amber… thanks for sharing. That is a very interesting site.. I just found out I’m not too old to create a masterpiece and move to Rome! DaVinci is also the featured story in this months’ National Geographic.

    • Sandy …You’re right it’s never too late to find your purpose in life.

      Leonardo started The Last Supper at 42 and finished it at 46.

      • Amber – At 56 Leonardo da Vinci was working on “St. John the Baptist”:

        “As above, So Below”

        http://divertimentodavinci.blogspot.com/2009/04/different-da-vinci-code.html?m=1

        And he was really good at designing models for Siege warfare, as in the Medieval scene depicted on the bronze chest.

        Ken (in Texas) – Open your mind. I am sure many a Texas Redneck read “The Da Vinci Code” or saw the movie.

        See also: the structure of the Poem as Simile = Metaphor. A good map?

        All IMO.

        • Ken (in Texas) – And unlike the blaze, which Forrest said is, “something you look at”, the “home of Brown could certainly be metaphorical in the Poem. It is in my Dan Brown solve. His “Book of Symbols” was also key to that solve.

  58. If searchers walked/hiked past the treasure then in all likelihood they would have walked/hiked past the treasure twice. Once up and another back to the vehicle unless there was another vehicle waiting for them on the other side of the trek which is very unlikely.

    • unless they were walking in a circle, say around the base of a small hill or a brittle geyser area or something…. Did FF ever confirm that it was not a loop path?

      • At the Moby Dickens book event = 11/2/13

        Q If you follow the poem precisely, will you find yourself switching back … making a loop?

        A That gals dangerous. Would I find myself switching back? (Pausing to think) – Well I think I can say no to that without giving away too much of a clue. F

        So, he didn’t directly answer about a loop, but he came close – JDA

  59. I just returned from my BOTG trip #20.
    It was uneventful except that I found the pair of reading glasses that I lost last year.
    Indulgence remains elusive as I await my next epiphany.
    😉

    • At least you found your glasses! I’m going on my first botg soon but still figuring out my exact path. This is not as easy as it looks when new.

    • 20 in the book.
      Is it worth another look?
      Seems like quite a few of you searchers getting out there early.
      Maybe too early?

      • I just realized how cold it is still in the Rockies! TRUST me. The snow is not for me. I’m bringing my lucky marbles with me. My secret one has a yellow circle in the center.

  60. Allow me to express a few opinions about some of the messages posted above. First, why is the topic of “Leonardo DaVinci” included in this thread? This thread is meant to discuss “Odds-n-Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt …”, not just any old odds-n-ends topic.

    Second, poster “Tarheel Searcher” (TS) posted this comment >>> “Having been on this blog for years there have been only two areas with considerable discussion and BOTG around the time frame from Summer 2012 to November 2013. One in Montana and the other in New Mexico”.

    So TS seems to have concluded that the chest must therefore be in either Montana or New Mexico. False assumption. There is no way that any of us can know which state the 200 foot searcher was in. This blog contains merely a subset of all searchers. It is highly presumptuous to conclude that the only people searching are those who post on this blog. There are thousands of searchers. And we do not have access to FF’s emails. For all we know, the 200 foot searcher sent FF an email of where they searched, but has never posted on any blog. Have some perspective, please.

    Third, Seeker has been preaching the “WALKED past all clues” (except WWWH), for years. And for years I have written how narrow that logic is.

    Using FF’s words “followed the clues” when he hid the chest to justify the “walked past” clues theory is presumptuous. By “following the clues”, FF could simply have meant that he followed some clues WITH HIS EYES, as those clues appeared on a map. There is no proof, none whatsoever, that he physically walked past all the clues, after WWWH. But Seeker is on the forum a lot more than I am, and readers tend to want to believe that posters who post often and frequently know more than those who post seldom. And of course, searchers who never post on this blog don’t know anything at all, as implied by TS’s inference that the 200 foot searcher must have been someone on this blog. Again, please broaden one’s perspective.

    The idea that FF gave us 1, and only 1, clue for the vast expanse of the Rockies from Santa Fe to the Canadian border, yet paradoxically gave us 8 clues that could be easily “walked” in an afternoon makes no sense at all, to me. Why would searcher need so many clues after having arrived at WWWH? Searcher could simply walk back and forth across the fairly small area, until he or she found the chest, no clues needed other than WWWH. Further … FF tells us in the poem that it’s “too far to walk” … which comes after searcher has arrived at WWWH. How much clearer does Forrest need to be?

    It seems to me that some searchers are way too narrow in their concept of the treasure hunt. Broadening one’s horizon by using one’s imagination in all aspects of the hunt will enhance one’s chances of finding the chest, in my opinion.

    Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • Ken (in Texas);

      Very clearly and nicely stated – Have a GREAT day Ken – JDA

      • eveningdawn8 – Loved your Day Vinci quote above.

        This character from “The Sixtth Sense” is ‘Cole Sear’ (homophone ‘Seer’?):

        COLE: I want to tell you my secret now.

        MALCOLM: Okay.

        COLE: I see dead people.

        MALCOLM: In your dreams? While you’re awake? Dead people, like, in graves, in coffins?

        COLE: Walking around like regular people. They don’t see each other. They only see what they want to see. They don’t know they’re dead.

        MALCOLM: How often do you see them?

        COLE: All the time.

        Ken (in Texas) – That sounds familiar.

          • Cat on Lap Top:
            And the cat stopped Typing momentarily overwhelmed by the genius of her opening sentence…
            Ce78ctwk7v85-4

          • JDA… then again, maybe its Mona’s background. Back in a college art history class (yes, I took an art history class circa 1955) I recall some discussion about a mystery in the background on either side of Mona — they’re “not matching” and maybe one was a reference to something real and to something personal & imaginary. I never got it…. but as I look today at the little picture on my screen of Mona… on one side I see water high and on the other a river. My eyes aren’t so good… what do you see?

          • OS2 – Here you go:

            https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speculations_about_Mona_Lisa#Eyebrows_and_eyelashes

            The Denver Museum is featuring that Engineer’s analysis from the Louvre. Where they have the Cour Napoleon entrance near the “As above, So below” Pyramids. That whole Masculine-Feminine thing. See also: Dan Brown.

            Leonardo – Should I tell them about the geometric and metaphorical secrets in your “Mona Lisa” landscape? Or, should I wait until someone actually reads that info. in a book, or remembers a similar Art History class to the one I participated in 36 years ago?

            I bet Leonardo da Vinci would have loved Google. What did he say about time and a river, again?

            Love, Lisa

            Giggles.

          • Lisa, I don’t get the Skippy/helicopter reference, & it would take me forever to process all the clever links you posted on Mona Lisa. FF wrote the Chase long before the Denver show, and probably has only as much interest in Lisa as the average Santa Fe ex-art vendor. IMO, If anything about her interested him it might have been the theory behind the 1911 theft from the Louvre. (to make copies to sell as real) which might have been a historical note of interest to FF during his Elmyr de Hory marketing escapade.

            I don’t think Lisa has anything to do with the Chase……..HOWEVER, if i were to pick a da Vinci icon that might be a FF hint, it would be the a sketch of the perfect male form as defined by an old Roman architect. Some think it may also be a d-V self-portrait and II don’t doubt Forrest measured himself in all his bathroom mirrors.

            Part of the genius of the Man ‘on the circle on the square’ with limbs extended and compass centered at bellybutton are the 16 possible view combinations. The handwritten notes on the sketch are measurements of the human body as “distributed by Nature” (geography) — “4 fingers make 1 palm, and 4 palms make 1 foot, 6 palms make 1 cubit; 4 cubits make a man’s height. And 4 cubits make one pace and 24 palms make a man;” So, that reminds me of FF’s surveying comments on links, & chains, rods, hectares, etc.

            Vintruvian Man is also know as the Canon of Properties

          • OS2 – Thanks for your reply and your thoughts on the Vintruvian Man. The Da Vinci helicopter reminds me of the drawing of the helicopter in Skippy’s book. And I forgot about the Mona Lisa theft.

            Now I am back to thinking about “Fred” and his being blind. Saw a gigantic Moose, sans antlers, along the river this past Friday night. Moose rely mostly on their keen senses of hearing and smell.

            But:

            Moose also works with our eyes. Each eye on this creature moves independently, meaning they can literally keep an eye on the prize at all times.

            That’s what Eye will be doing.

      • Eveningdawn8,

        I believe the Denver Museum of Nature & Science is relevant in this chase. Why else would have Doug Preston mentioned it in Forrest book, kinda with Forrest permission.

        Keep on keeping on eveningdawn8.

        Good luck,
        Bur

          • JDA,

            If I told you that I would have to shoot you, as Forrest would say. LOL

            JDA the moment that comment came out it rang a bell for me.
            You know I could write a book on all I have come across in findings for this chase over the years, as I’m sure many others too. It’s when those findings connect with your “general solve” that’s what is exciting.

            Well only a couple of days now then off to the Rockies. Hoping it’s a good trip.

            Good luck on your next time out that looks not to far away.

            Bur

          • Hi Bur – DON’T TELL ME!!! I like living 🙂 HAHA

            So, “It rang a bell” did it? Bells are typically bronze – The Bronze age was after the stone age. The Bronze age was 3000 BC – 1200 BC – so, about 5000 years ago to 3200 years ago – Wonder how this connects to the Chase ? – Also, Forrest made and hid a bunch of jars and bells – Somehow does this relate to “So hear me all and listen good”???? And Indulgence is a bronze box – HUMM ??? – Ideas, ideas, ideas – all leading to nowhere at the moment – This will take a bit more pondering – JDA

          • The Denver Museus of Nature and Science has two permanent displays that seem to fit Forrest’s interests – North American Indian Cultures and Prehistoric Journey, Both fall into the category of geography:

            Mr. Fenn, is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem. ~Steve R
            No Steve R, the only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help. f

            Geography:
            noun
            The study of the physical features of the earth and its atmosphere, and of human activity as it affects and is affected by these, including the distribution of populations and resources, land use, and industries.

            Something to think about.

            Do “North American Indian Cultures” relate to the Chase – maybe where or how Indulgence is interred or secreted??? Again – HUMMM ??? JDA

          • JDA,

            HUMM,
            As Forrest said no knowledge of US history is need, but how can it not be related in geography. Cultures are everywhere JDA. I think.

            You sure can research fast.

            Bur

          • Bur and JDA – From Jenny’s Q/A with Forrest:

            “No specialized knowledge is required.” f

            Ok, Forrest. I get that. Because that Red backwards bike solve logo of mine is an old timey Schwinn! This one is a little ‘Sharp’ around the turns:

            https://www.bicyclesinc.com/merchant/154/images/site/specialized.png

            Love that book you wrote about J.H. Sharp! And I wish I had anywhere close to the 3,000 books you have in your personal library. Of course, I understand that none of the contents of those books contributed to the final solve of the Poem. That you spent 15 years writing and rewriting.

            Giggles.

            All IMO.

          • Maybe I can research fast, but am I researching the right things – That is the question Bur. Yes, cultures are everywhere, so what is common among many (or all) cultures? We are born. we live, and we die. Most cultures have specific rites along the path, including burial rites of different kinds. Wish I could go to the DMNS and look at their displays – I might learn something important – JDA

          • Bur and JDA – And Leonardo da Vinci and his lifetime achievements fall under the category of European or Italian Rennaissance history. That is not “U.S. History”. And a biography of J.H. Sharp is Art History.

            Forrest is a Master of using mathematical logic to structure his reponses. IMO.

            All grizzlies are Brown bears.
            But not all Brown bears are grizzlies.

            Exception:

            The Cinnamon bear.

    • RE: Denver Museum of Nature and Science,
      https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Denver_Museum_of_Nature_and_Science

      I found it to be a point of interrest that it had originated in a small cabin in Breckenridge, Colorado. It was started by Edwin Carter.
      Another interesting exhibit is a collection of Folsom points from New Mexico. The museum also has some scavenger hunts that takes you through various exhibits. But the Folsom points may have been of particular interest to FF.

  61. The questions everyone is asking here has crossed my mind many times and in some of my past searches I “drove” and “walked far” between clue solves. I no long believe either of those has to happen. This journey this poem takes us on is only about a 1.25 mile walk/hike from the place Forrest parked to where he secreted Tarzan/ indulgence.

    The two clues searchers have solved are most likely “WWWH ” and “the canyon down”. That canyon down is a “well beaten path” and it travels for quite a few miles.

    Don’t “over think” this poem. If you get the right wwwh then a few of the other clues will follow a “path” in that canyon down, especially if you’re researching from home. For the rest of the solves you need to put botg and travel down that “path” to confirm the poems directions you had seen at home. Then you need to be “willing” (no place for the meek) to go off that “well beaten path” to a “unmarked path” (at the “put in” place) to help in finding the remaining clues solves. Especially ones you might have guessed at- is heavy loads -boulders? or is water high a waterfall?-(nada) and then there is the blaze? This “unmarked path” is “key for those answers”. Some searchers solved the first couple clues but walked by passed the treasure chest. Why? Because they had “other answers” for those remaining clue solves further down that “well beaten path” past where the chest is hidden, instead of the “correct answers” leading to the chest….Duh.
    So most likely that canyon down trail/path has a few clue solves on it, but those searchers only solved first two correctly and then walked by the other 7, especially the “put in” place and the solves “in there”.

    “I warned the path would not be direct for those who had no certainty of the location beforehand, but sure for the one who did”

    “It helps to know something about Rocky Mountain geography when making plans to search for my treasure. Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve. Google Earth cannot help with the last clue.”

    Not sure if anyone see’s things as I see, but this is what I have come across, and my search follows this path.

    As always all I say is just food for thought.

    Good luck all,
    Bur

    • Thanks Bur for your insight – gonna go hop in a warm bath and think a bit. Maybe the steam will make things clearer.

      Anyway, it’s “armchair” visions I have right now until I can make another BOTG trip to my special place for searching. God willing and the creek don’t rise.

    • Hi Bur
      Is there still a lot of snow in your search area?
      Sounds like you have a lot figured out.may I ask
      What state you are searching in or dont you
      want to give that out yet.some of what you say
      sounds like my solve too.Clint
      Ps Good Luck

      • Clint,
        No snow for now, but I have had that change days before and even on searches.

        If you figured out the first clue solve with help from the word that is key then we might be in the same area, or not.

        Good luck,
        Bur

        • Hi Bur
          Thank you for answers,I now know we are
          on 2 different pages and or totally different
          states.The reason why I don’t say much
          about the solve its just to dangerous.
          Once you know how simple it is,like
          Forrest said you best be quiet and go get it
          when the time is right. Good luck to you
          and be safe Clint

        • Hi Bur
          Thanks for the come back and the answer to
          my question above.I see now by your answer
          we are looking in different places.i posted
          more but Del must of taken it off because
          I did not put IMO.like Forest said when you
          know just keep quite until the time is right
          IMO Clint

    • Thanks Bur;

      You offer a very clear reason why so many may have walked past where Indulgence is secreted. Thanks for the post – JDA

    • *** *** *** ***
      Bur offered – “So most likely that canyon down trail/path has a few clue solves on it, but those searchers only solved first two correctly and then walked by the other 7, especially the “put in” place and the solves “in there”.”
      *** *** *** ***

      That’s pretty much the template for my search maps.

      He went “in there” and the poem tells us to “put in”, probably (as you suggest) the point at which the two-clue folk were not “in tight focus” with going “in” somewhere, and went on by instead.

      The overall condition for getting “title to the gold” is to be “in the wood.”

      Jake

  62. Its just such confusion. Like it matters so here goes. I see the omegas on each end
    of gneiss creek trail. I see the S on waters like many. WWWH fir ridge cemetery.
    TINTCD. NFBTFTW. Id’s gneiss trail. where to start and it goes down to Madison canyon
    and what to do. go not far. To Campanula creek. your there. 2 miles x 4 is 8 miles.
    What north of Santa Fe. I figure he drove at least 1 1/2 miles or more towards the
    creek. you reached the water in bear management area below where they come down.
    if you keep going it is more danger. Your are at a Y area where a old dry creek and a wet
    creek meet. the water for them is high in the mountains. it is all part of creeks that were fly fished. I had first thought it was between the ears on the bear looking island thing and his
    head was the blaze. It looked like that when he hid the chest but before that it didn’t.
    So I am thinking the day hike is to the creek and back. 500 feet and if you keep going
    200 feet. That’s probably not the case anyway. Gneiss rocks and black and white striped
    looking and a little marble like. I am figuring I need to check the dry creek and then at
    least 500 feet up campanula creek from the cross over in the creek get wet searching the
    boulders and looking for an interment in them with a bunch of little gneiss rocks.
    I just got it in my head it is right there somewhere. But what an 80 y/o with 4wd.
    Its far fetched but Google earth has been fun. is anybody ever going to find it.
    Is there a chest and can it be solved.. I wish I lived near west Yellowstone other wise
    not going.. I guess a lot of people force there ideas to fit.
    I liked it better than my seven mile bridge solve.
    Good luck this summer to you BOTG People..
    No clue Mark..

    • I also believed the trees in the creek have been there for a long time.
      So I think it won’t be going any where when the waters come.

      Just saying…

    • I too have analyzed a similar solve. Gneiss-Nice-in ice-wwwh. However, I attacked it more from a dyslexic mindset. Fir Ridge-fur rib-hoB
      You must mirror some letters.
      Cougar creek-the story of killing the mountain lion
      Duck creek-look quickly down
      The headstones in that cemetary are arranged in a horseshoe pattern.

  63. When is your next trip JDA? And has anyone heard from GCG for a bit? Wondering what’s up in Michigan this time of year.

    • Not sure – Hopefully in a week or two – Depends on availability of my search team. Mother’s Day is coming up so that could work against me – JDA

    • Country House 65/1
      I like the name.
      My bad.
      #20
      Ok, back on topic.

        • Are you heading back to Montana again?
          You are a half a world away from your other statement.

          • What other statement? That joke was about the derby and your odds of winning on a horse. I once went to Ascot in England and lost ten quid about ten times in a row. My buddy Bailey just bet on #5 every time and won twice.

            Yes, I just booked for late June. I don’t know where is the treasure so I’m just going to hike and to get some ideas.

            This year’s snow looks a lot like 2017, so the creeks should be calm by mid-June I hope.

          • Ah.. I’m in Victoria Canada, not UK. But I often pass through the UK doing other stuff.

            I was whining about the cost of shipping to Canada for that book (and all of Forrest’s books) is an additional $50 on top of the book price when the vendor is in America. For some reason, shipping is free from the UK to Canada for the same book.

          • Yes Jake – we borrowed alot from England.
            And you are not to far off base when mentioning horse racing. As always – IMO.

  64. My (personal) interpretation of the TTOTC picture of the “Dove nesting in the moon” and why that is such a “special” place. All IMHO.

    Some of life’s most memorable moments are in a time and place not recognized by any other beyond the beholder. He was about to return from a successful summer where nature revealed more blessings than a young boy could have ever imagined and camping with family at a familiar locale, the moon was slight but ever so bright on this night. He soaked in a warm and inviting natural bath. A private time of warm water aided by the sounds of his father’s ax and the wafting smoke from his mother tending the water kettle.

    Stars blasted the sky in those moments and feelings of new found success, personal accomplishment and approaching manhood were only tempered by the realization that the place he will soon return to is so very far from that where he just came. Ahead lay more of what he left behind for these past few months of real joy. Soon criticism, condemnation, doubt, and rebellion would welcome his return to that place he called his, “home town.”

    So many conflicting thoughts crashed through his mind. It was then that he noticed a nesting dove. Faithful to its mission, the dove did not flee the threatening noise of an invading family. Ignoring the nearby threats from a cracking axe, the eggs remained covered by warm feathers. In mounting personal frustration and with some mischievous intent a few pebbles and then larger and larger rocks were tossed at the peaceful bird. It seemed to have this very unnatural ability to ignore every threat and hold fast with confidence.

    What would it take to interrupt such persistent goals of a mother on her nest? Maybe only breaking off the limb would do the trick? Then, again, why?

    This warm bath surrounded by nature and serenaded by the stars; this moment protected by loved ones and marinated by the best of memories, one simply has to wonder, “why?” Endurance, patience, peace, maturity, confidence are lessons sometimes only learned in a time and place not recognized by any other beyond the beholder.

    Q – So, fellow Chasers, what do you think of that pic?

    • Mine is very different, and when I have more time I will tell you…soon. This picture has deep meaning! Imo
      Lou Lee
      Chased by bears in jelly stone park and lived to tell the tale.

    • “A work of art is a world in itself reflecting senses and emotions of the artist’s world.” Hans Hofmann

    • EthicalDilemma – In my original solve, Forrest is using that axe to edit the end of my Ridgeline face blaze to make the E is for ‘Ever’ (Everard = Eric Sloane), drawing nigh (far left justified). I imagined he did that to honor Eric, after he passed in 1985. The dove might signify Eric finding peace in the Heavens, resting in a nest on a crescent moon.

      Since my Ridgeline blaze spans USFS owned land, I would guess Forrest had to do that axe work at night. Or, maybe he is a silent agricultural partner, and he was just avoiding the Summer mosquitoes.

      “From there it’s no place for the meek,
      The end is ever drawing nigh.”

      All IMO.

  65. Bur wrote: “This journey this poem takes us on is only about a 1.25 mile walk/hike from the place Forrest parked to where he secreted Tarzan/ indulgence.
    The two clues searchers have solved are most likely “WWWH ” and “the canyon down”. That canyon down is a “well beaten path”
    ———————————————————————————————–
    Bur, since you say the “poem takes us on … a 1.25 mile walk/hike from the place Forrest parked …”, I gather you think that Forrest parked his car at WWWH. Thus, all of the remaining 8 clues relate specifically, and only, to the walk/hike. That’s Seeker’s theory.

    On the other hand, if you do not subscribe to an 8-walking-clues solution, then your current message is very unclear.

    You, Seeker, and others quote messages from Forrest to justify this 8-clues-apply-to-walking theory. But there’s one passage that none of you want to comment on, it seems, based on my lengthy message above.

    After having arrived at WWWH, Forrest says IN THE POEM explicitly >>> “too far to walk”.

    How do you and seeker and others get around such a blatant statement? Are you being selective in picking only those clues and hints that confirm some predetermined locational theory? To me, that’s what it sounds like.

    Indeed, I see very few people on this message board ever seriously taking into account Forrest’s POEM instruction that it’s >>> TOO FAR TO WALK.

    Until searchers come up with a really plausible explanation why we should ignore this poem phrase, I can’t take any locational theory seriously, if the searcher adheres to the 8-walking-clues theory. It sounds like something an 8th grader would devise. (Yes,Forrest mentioned having a child read the poem, but Forrest himself did not spend 15 years of his life composing a puzzle the solution to which is so childish).

    Posters here ignored my reference to “too far to walk” in my earlier message.

    Please address it now.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Ken (from Texas)

      Part of me agrees with you and part doesn’t simply because I don’t know where the treasure is, I can only speculate like everybody else.

      I will say, I believe “Too Far To Walk” is not one of the nine clues though, IMO, I think it gives direction just like some of the other lines in the poem.

      I believe it states that we should still be in our vehicle once we determine WWWH and TIITCD and then proceed NOT FAR in our vehicle but at the same time we’ll need to be on the lookout for some of the other nine clues while driving in our vehicle.

      It’s kinda like when we were kids in the back of the station wagon playing I SPY. As we go along we SPY the clues. I SPY clue 3, I SPY clue 4, directional statement, I SPY clue 5.

      I’ve stated before that I believe we need to stop our vehicle at the blaze. Then look quickly down and the QUEST will cease.
      I believe the QUEST starts At WWWH and ends at the place we park our vehicle to witness the blaze and look down to a place that encompasses the treasure.

      All my opinion as usual.

      • Ken,
        I agree with your opinion, but I believe that you park the vehicle as close to, heavy loads and water high, as possible. I do not believe you will be able to see the blaze from your vehicle.
        WWWH is the starting point and puts you on the correct path, but it is too far to walk from, to get to the place where you park.
        That’s the way I see it.
        Just my opinion. I wish I knew for sure. 🙂

    • Ken (in Texas)

      Very simple, you seem to forget who made the poem, writing about the journey he took to secret his chest. Forrest was 79-80 when he hid the chest. Don’t you think that canyon down distance is “not far” but to far to walk for him, especially with 22lbs strapped to him. He did it twice because he wanted to make this place work no matter what. Maybe that help in his thinking too.

      Let me know how that distance would work out for you when you reach that age.

      Good luck,
      Bur

    • Hi Ken in Taxas
      I know what you are talking about Ken.
      Just waiting for the right time.
      Are you going to put botg this year.
      I had it completed last Oct
      I though it was to late ,did not want to get
      Caught in snow storm. Clint

  66. I also believe that Forrest’s secret spot has nothing to do with any of his childhood memories or his family at all. (I’m gonna catch a fish in the face for that one boy!)

    On the episode of Expedition Unknown, Josh Gates asks Forrest, “Why did you choose the place you did to hide the treasure?”
    Forrest’s response, “Its a place I’ve been a few times.”
    Couple that with the “ALONE” part and WALA, the secret place is Forrest’s own personal spot that he found alone and has only been there a few times.

    If the place is a childhood spot and/or has something to do with family, he woulda been there numerous times, not just a few.

    There’s something interestingly simple about a small moment in time. I’ve been places once or twice and they stuck with me my entire life. A beautiful or awakening moment can keep a profound clarity in a small part of our brain, and it can stay there forever. Why can’t Forrests special place just simply be a passing in time? Why does it have to be a place where his roots are growing?

    All my opinion as usual.

  67. I hope someone solves this thing this year so it is not another nine.
    I had thought the first 2 lines mean something. The word bold.. Like he
    needed to state that. He went in there not normally but another way.
    And with my treasures bold. And what did he mean there is something we have not
    thought of.. The word bold..
    I know it is a needle in a haystack.
    When the first book came out. Distance probably didn’t mean New Mexico only.
    He was probably thinking all the way to Canada. He was flying all over before that.
    maybe the New Mexico idea that came out. He wanted to correct.
    Just when he said it was a place he had really fond memories of. The feel and look
    on his face was way in the past. All IMO.
    I don’t know have not been to Yellowstone since 1974.
    Maybe it is in the public park down the road from his house.
    How is little India there in 2 steps. Then she needs BOTG.
    There is that guy on Jeopardy. somebody mail him the poem…Just kidding.
    So take your time. It has not been found in nine years SO..
    Stay safe…

  68. I had another thought near there. was On top of Sandy Butte it is closer and a good
    camp site for fisherman way back when. Like a home base thing and cook out place.
    Just a guess only. Was thinking looking in different directions and seeing the clues
    the mountain lake Henrys Lake. Watkins creek area. things like that..
    Stay safe..

  69. Dang this is mind bowling. Just when I get one location pinned down, I’m split between it and somewhere new. I read too much into all these posts and my mind takes off in a different direction. If I don’t come up with something concrete fairly soon, my family is gona send me off to the “farm.”

    • You seem to imply that you are limited to one and only one search? Will you simply not experience the Rockies if it is found before you settle on an ideal solve?

      • Oh I will see plenty! There is beauty all around us. Even in our own backyards. Just look see!

    • We’re having fun now, aren’t we? I’m about ready to go to the farm myself! Oh, wait, I live on one; at least I won’t get lost.

      • Yes we are having fun – why else would we be doing this. I have ducks, dogs, and cats. Wish I had a goat.

  70. LOL – I meant to say mind blowing. Auto words just don’t always get it right. Guess I need to proof before I post.

    • LOL WWWamericana I think Mind Bowling fits better. Taking an idea throwing it down the lane to see how many pins it hits…:) A lot of my Mind Bowling ideas turn out to be gutter balls 🙂

    • Mind bowling worked fine…”pinned” down and “split between” seemed to support it well also!

    • LOL. Mind Bowling is totally better!
      Although, Mind Blowing just might be the EXPLOSION we’re all waiting for!

  71. Ken in Texas,

    I just finished reading your post late Friday the fourth. I agree that NFBTFTW covers a considerable distance, from wwwh to PITHOB. I believe that the first two clues were correctly solved and the searchers walk right past the treasure causes confusion. Walking past the chest in my conclusion was way after the first two clues as there was a pause between the 2 clue comment and 200’ comment that F indicated.

    I strongly disagree that the remaining clues are in close proximity of the first clue. The idea that botg are need right at wwwh or even right after the hoB put in place is merely conjecture. Also the idea that F physically walk or drove all of the clues when he followed the clues in the poem when he hid the treasure. When I did my searches I didn’t need to follow the poem precisely while going on the search physically. However I did follow the poem in my memory and on a map before I ever left my home. In my theory it is completely out of the question to physically follow the first two clues as recognized on my map, (the big picture).

    I couldn’t identify the distance between wwwh and PIBTHOB to determine what NFBTFTW meant until I found the hoB. The “put in” words have nothing to do with being in the water or even near water. Put in to me simply means to pause at that place, then head towards NPFTM. It is the poem married to the correct map that determines what the distance really is, where to put in and where to go.

    For me that is how I see things in my theory that truly do work easily. I’m not saying anyone else’s are wrong, its just my perspective, as we all have to prove or disprove the theories that we all created. Good Luck to all.

    Just Say’n

  72. There is so much congestion on here – bet Dal will be starting a new page soon.

    • Will you select phenylephrine or pseudoephedrine?

      If your discharge is green, it’s a virus. No decongestant can help you.

      • I feel the need for speed – so whatever works best. I keep my Kleenex box handy so I don’t infect others with my melodies. Any recommendations for a quick fix? Don’t want any of those quack remedies though.

        • More searching, less babbling, mehbe?….

          Some searching?

          Any searching at all?

          Relevance?

          • Ouch! You were the one that brought up nasal discharge.
            Yes – always searching…….

          • ‘always searching’

            in the great American wilderness

            or just on line in the vaposhere of the cloud?

  73. Hi Lisa (& others) … catching’ up here from up-thread comments.
    Sorry you copied my twitchy-finger misspelling of Vitruvian Man….

    RE: Vitruvius — da Vinci — Pico — Renaissance Man & the Chase.

    Here’s a sweet 3 minute video on squaring the circle, …

    https://youtu.be/aMsaFP3kgqQ

  74. This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the discussion please go to the latest Odds n Ends page.

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