Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Eighty Two

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Thanks…

 

dal…

610 thoughts on “Odds n Ends About Fenn’s Treasure Hunt…Part Eighty Two

  1. I have given a lot of thought to one clue Forrest gave us. He said that it would be there 100 years or 1,000 years, no matter what. Or something to that effect. Which led me to the conclusion that there has to be map coordinates hidden in the poem. Bear with me, even if the character of the land changes, it is still going to be the same coordinates. Right or wrong??

    • FF didn’t say that, Terry. How could anyone make a “no matter what” claim about anything 100-1,000 years from now?

      (Well, anyone could *make* such a claim, but . . . seriously?)

      This I think is what you’re after (25 June 2014) –

      *** *** *** ***
      Q – Did the same 9 clues exist when you were a kid and to your estimation will they still exist in 100 years and 1000 years?
      Thanks ~Ron

      A – ” . . . The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia. The Rocky mountains are still moving and associated physical changes will surely have an impact. If you are in the year 3,009 it will be more difficult for you to find the treasure.” f
      *** *** *** ***

      I think the poem was designed to deliver geography not coordinates, but it’s been suggested by some.

      JAKe

  2. Jake Faulkner – Sorry I missed the chance to respond to you on the previous thread.

    No, I do not agree to your proposal. I thought since you were bragging on the previous thread about how you had not had to eat your hat yet in the past, you would agree to it again now with me for this season. I guess you are now not as confident as you once were? That’s okay.

    • That’s OK Blex, it’s understandable you are not confident enough to put your mouth where your mouth is.

  3. Does anyone know if Rio En Medio is within the search area or is it too far south?

    • Ricky-
      If you know how to use Google maps…and a measuring stick of some kind you should certainly be able to figure that out for yourself. Forrest told us exactly where to measure from in Fundamental Guidelines…which is linked on a tab under the photo at the top of this page.

      Do yourself a favor…and me…by doing some simple research before starting a thread that has been yapped about ad nauseam for the past nine years…

      • Would love a second opinion on the distance, as Rio En Medio so close to 8.25 miles depending on the angle. I’ve analyzed for many months, so any additional thoughts or opinions would be greatly appreciated. There is no substitution for hard work! As for the nauseam thing, may I suggest a good nap and a cup coffee.

      • Dal as a relative newby to the forums the Fundamental Guidlines left me wondering because it seemed he puts ff after a direct quote and I didn’t see one there. Can you please clarify that Forrest wrote those guidlines because I wasn’t sure if it was something you typed up or him. Thanks for all you do.

  4. I might open a can of worms here, but I’m working through my solve and wondering some others thoughts on “Not far, but too far to walk.”

    I think most folks use the TFTW preface to justify that the hidey space is within 10 or so miles of WWWH. Think of it in terms of this. WWWH <Not far < Hidey Space < TFTW

    I have started thinking that "Not Far" is a large distance, and "TFTW" gives you a starting point.

    In the chapter Looking for Lewis and Clark, Forrest says "….on their wonderful Corps of Discovery, had passed through Montana not too many miles to the north."

    "Not too many" is actually around 80 miles.

    My WWWH hasn't changed much since I started with the chase in 2016, but my distances have.

    Something like this :
    WWWH < Canyon Down < TFTW < HOB < Meek < No Paddle <End < (Not) Far

    • Ya JimB, I think it’s more than 80 miles when I did the research back then when I read that. Not too many miles??? I always thought that was a weird statement.

      • Agreed. I just think everyone is looking too close to WWWH. From your posts, I think we are in the same general search area as well.

        • If WWWH is close to the treasure and several have figured it out then why the empty backpacks?
          Cause we think that the treasure is far away from WWWH and probably HOB as well.

          I search between Big Sky and West Yellowstone.

          • Question comes to mind , is it only too far to walk because of the heavy loads?.
            Without heavy loads ,or TC. Is it not far to walk?.

          • Heavy loads is 5 lines away in the poem from TFTW and about the 5the clue (place) so I would think they don’t relate to each other.
            It’s too far to walk either way and miles away IMO.

          • That’s something distant on mine. I’m Between Ennis and West. But I have a feeling we are chasing the same rabbit hole. I’m just hoping I looked at the right map to tie the 2 stories and the poem to the spot of the Blaze that Meek encountered

          • I did check those areas out in my armchair and realized there was too much private property to put BOTG.

            Once you get past Quake Lake there’s a lot of private property and roads till you get to Beaverhead Deerlodge area. Then after that more private roads and property all the way to Ennis.

            West Yellowstone to Quake Lake sounds good to me though. Not sure about any stories in his books tied to a blaze…

    • Jim, I don’t have it now, but there is an ATF that defines “too far”.
      If you are walking long distances looking for the treasure, you are walking too far.
      Since the poem says “not far”, but “too far” to walk, you could basically substitute. “Not far, but long distances to walk”.
      I realize this doesn’t answer your question, but it is a start. To find out, the answer is on page 15 of ttotc, and another ATF.
      I won’t get into how you come to page 15 as a reference, too long of a post, but it is the only page with an asterisk. The explanation would make this all clear, but if you count the words on this page you get 114. An ATF,
      A few are in tight focus with a word that is key.
      People can assume all they want, but this line says the word “that” is key. And the word “few” is in tight focus with it.
      “that” is in the poem, the 113th word. The word “few” is on page 15, the 113th word. THE KEY IS NOT A WORD, IT IS 113.
      So, another ATF, where f says he walked less than a “few” miles. We have 4 options, 1+1+3=5, 1,1+3=14, 1+1,3=23, and 113. Now 113 is not even feasible, so scratch that value. 5 miles would be 1 1/4 miles one way, this would not match the “long distances” ATF, so we can scratch that distance, but I would make a mental note of it. Now 14 miles would be 3 1/2 miles one way and a long distance. 23 miles would be 5 3/4 miles one way, and a long distance. Since he said “less” than a few, we can do what I hate, guess, that the distance to walk is somewhere between 3-5, or
      3 1/4 – 5 1/2 miles if you are not thinking rounding the numbers.
      This makes all the ATF’s on the subject and doesn’t lead to any conflicts of contradiction. It also gives a little insight to how f gives us info, sounding contradictive, but actually has no contradiction.
      Like I said, arriving at why page 15 for reference would make this long post 10 times longer, you will just have to go with what I’m offering, and I understand if skeptical, I probably would be too, but it’s solid, just depends on if it fits your solve I guess. My answer to how far you have to walk from wwwh to the chest could be anywhere from 3 miles to 5 1/2 miles, one way. The reason you keep 1 1/4 miles in play but the background is that f may have had alternate transportation, but for us, we walk. He very well could have walked a short distance, but for us, we are walking long distances. Hope that makes sense, all IMO…

      • The question is though. Do you actually walk from WWWH? Paraphrasing here… but the ATF was something to the effect of – if you’re walking more than a few miles than it’s too far.

        • In other words… Many people are taking f’s words That several people got the first two clues and then went right past the rest… Does that mean they physically went by? Or they didn’t understand they were there, or the meaning of the clues and “went right by” the rest.

          Kind of like me telling a joke that someone didn’t understand. I would say that the joke went over their head, Not physically of course. Unless they were shorter than me

        • jIM, I’m sure I have the ATF, I will find the exact quote. Again, I think ATF’s help with whether you walk from wwwh, or not. Side note, if you are walking more than a few miles….we can define by the word “few”. Anyway, when you organize the ATF’s on the possible walk, two stick out, his comments on going down a canyon, back up, then down again, in which he wouldn’t do. Also, no shortcuts, along with follow all the clues.
          If you are to follow all the clues, and there are no shortcuts, taking multiple trips, it leads to not being possible to do anything other then start your walk at the first clue. Driving passed the first clue would lead to a shortcut down the line, leading to not following all the clues at one point. That’s just where the ATF’s will lead if you consider all of them. But, it’s up to interpretation.
          I think you are right about the first clue searchers and walking by. Put it this way, a searcher parks their car, grabs their skis, and heads into a canyon via a trail. This trail leads to a mountain with some nice lines. But, along this trail was actually clues to a chest. He/she goes skiing, never knowing they were so close. They just walked on by, knowing nothing.
          I think we need to be careful when we consider the two clue or maybe the 4 clue searchers getting clues right. With them knowing nothing, puts them in the class of not solving the poem correctly. As far as we know, nobody has solved anything. For me anyway, it’s a 5 mile, one way hike from wwwh to the chest. My wwwh is my starting point gathered from a solve of the poem and finding a spot. Draw the path there, and where I start is wwwh. Anaconda, Montana. There are many references to why this is the spot, but nothing as far as just answering that clue. That’s where I park a car and start out. It’s a long walk, where there are no motorized vehicles, (gated with signs). But locals hike there all the time, or go skiing in Winter. So, my response to your post is somewhat bias, as most peoples response would be. You just have to go with what you think. I don’t want to tell you, yes, you walk from wwwh, that is just IMO. If you solve the poem and have a long walk, then it fits. If your solve has you walking short distances or driving to later clues, that’s just what it is.

          • This is why the search hasn’t been fruitful in my mind. Too many people take f’s words literal. I take “no shortcuts” as in there is no way to figure out later clues without first figuring out the newer ones.

            “The person who finds the treasure will have studied the poem over and over, and thought, and analyzed and moved with confidence. Nothing about it will be accidental”.

            “I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map.”

            So if I can move in confidence, and I have married the first few clues to a map (WWWH, CD), you could theoretically put me in the canyon with a helicopter, not at WWWH and I could still find the treasure. Would that be a shortcut?

            I could say start it in the smallest west and take it in the canyon up. Enjoy a warm swim and continue down. There you’ll find something colorful and grand.

            For those who are familiar with the West Yellowstone area could figure out that I’m saying start at West Yellowstone, take to Madison junction, up the Firehole and get to the Grand Prismatic. Someone who enjoys hiking , and knows a little bit of history (and has a good map) – Might hike the old fountain trail that starts near the old fire tower. And believe me, in the middle of the day when there are a bunch of tourists and buffalo in the west part of the park, it might be faster to hike that trail than drive to / park at Grand Prismatic.

            The fact that people have been within 500′ of the treasure (he said both people and searchers) leads me to believe that the chest is within 500′ of some trail, road, or significant place on a map.

            Fenn says “There isn’t a human trail in very close proximity to where I hid the treasure.”

            In referring to a question about his “Buffalo Cowboys” story, he replies “The buffalo has few natural enemies and are not known to attack anything that is not in its close proximity.”
            http://mysteriouswritings.com/roping-a-buffalo-featured-question-with-forrest/

            So he was far enough away from Cody (in the car), and wasn’t in “close proximity” yet he was close enough to put a rope on Cody and wait in the car.

            It would be extremely hard for me to go in confidence ( all the way from Ohio) without being sure of the first few clues. Even those who were within 200′ of the treasure have an extreme area to search, an area of 2.8 acres. And that would be if they even knew the exact spot that was within 200′. It is almost impossible to go to an area of 3-5 acres and “search” it to find the chest in the woods without having some understanding ahead of time what the clues mean.
            Just my opinion of course.

          • Jim, the reason you would not say fly a helicopter in to later clues is the simple fact of f “following all the clues”. F followed all the clues, there is no other way. In taking two trips, that does not lead to his second trip going from say clue two or beyond. He could have said that his second trip was a little shorter, but he doesn’t, only says to follow all the clues. If he did drive to later clues, then his statement would be misleading and contradictive.
            It’s just the path he took, which contains clues along it’s way to the spot, f took no shortcut. This leads to him walking at the start. Theoretically, with f knowing the spot, he could have taken a helicopter to the spot, but that would be a different poem. If one way in, then there was no driving from a different direction or anything, it all leads to parking at the first clue, wwwh. That is the path he laid out for us in the poem.
            As far as very close proximity, along with your example, there is a scrapbook about pickles, his fishing lure, hanging from his wall. He says pickles doesn’t like others in his close proximity, I forget if he says very close proximity, think he does, anyway, you can measure that distance by how long pickles is. It’s around 2 1/2″ inches or so, I apologize, going by memory, but that is the distance. So he could be just saying there is no trail within 3 ” or so. So that statement really means nothing. And also, again, that 200′ and 500′ thing could be elevation, we don’t know, so take it for what it is.
            Also remember, the poem leads one to make an “X” on a map. Also, he has stated that he has not given us the answer to wwwh in a subtle way, and we know that there is nothing anywhere that says in an un-subtle way, hear is wwwh. So, IMO, there is no answer given by f on wwwh. WWWH has to be discovered, learned, found, IMO. Not saying you can’t solve some of the clues, just not the one’s in the ATF, (blaze, wwwh). But with the poem giving you an “X”, a path can be found. With some of the clues needing BotG, how could you solve for them if he doesn’t give the answer? And be confident? It comes from solving the poem, that’s why it is useless to try to solve later clues. If it was possible to solve clues in the poem, then you could, theoretically, solve later clues. It makes more sense, you won’t know the first clue until you have the chest, so you can’t be confident until you have the chest? Makes no sense in trying to solve for clues that you don’t know where they are. IMO, you will know your end spot, draw a path to get there, where you start is wwwh, follow the path to the chest, along the way finding clues that are referenced in the poem. If you know where home of Brown is, why worry about wwwh? If you know where the spot is, why worry about any of them, clues, just the last one.
            IMO, need to tie in all his comments, and your solve should confirm all of what he has said, without contradiction or anything misleading. If we could individually answer some of his clues, then why did he say in an ATF that he has not given the answer to some of the clues? The ATF about if he has given the answer to wwwh, hoB, the blaze in a subtle way in the book. Unless he is lying, or has given the answer in an un-subtle way, which is obvious. That is the ATF that ruins many clue by clue solves. It all boils down to interpretation, when he says he hasn’t given the answer, I believe him. Once you have the poem solved, best to look for the clues in the poem and marry them to a map, your path, IMO, using a map at the start will only get in your way.

    • JimB,

      Though I don’t post much here anymore, IMO, the correct answer to NFBTFTW is miles (smile) and the answer to the ‘secondary’ question ‘how far?’ is in My War for Me. Specifically, Nam.

  5. Gotta love chase related dreams. In this one, I found a rock wall that had a large split i in it that looked like a lighting bolt. Indulgence was in there. My husband told me that I woke up laughing.

    • Veronica – I happened to have had my first Chase-related dream earlier this year too! It was pretty ridiculous: a group of lambs hopping around on a mountainside and I found the chest nestled in a rock outcropping on the opposite side of a ridgeline from where a trail runs. I guess this means I’m officially obsessed now?

    • Dreams are so interesting. I have had several Chase dreams over the years. In one I had a couple years back, I remember diving down deep at the base of a great big waterfall looking for the treasure. When I came up it was the same waterfall but my surroundings had changed. There was a house sitting at the edge up on the bank. It was like a secret place for him to hideout from all of us overwhelming searchers I guess. I don’t really remember much but what I do remember is that after I had showed up, Forrest ended up just telling me something like “congratulations its over there on the counter”, all nonchalantly, like the treasure chest didn’t mean anything at all. I lost track of it but didn’t care and ended up hanging out there with all his family and friends. I want to also say that he invited me to dinner at his banquet table, but that would be a lie. True story.

      • I actually had my first dream that included Indulgence in it. Your dream sounds better though. I bet Forrest would have invited you to dinner.

        • Sometimes its just not in the cards. Thank you for the kind reply though. Your dream sounds more useful than mine.

      • Clee, that sounds like one of those great dreams that you wish hadn’t ended and you try to go back to sleep to recapture, but alas… it never works. Thank you for sharing !

    • Veronica S. were you the person who wrote the Featured Question about thinking like a fish on Jenny’s site?

  6. Begin it wwwh… , to me the starting point wil be a slap in the face to most, you will be starting at an intersection in your car, at a T with the area that warm water is to your back. The reason is “IT”, begin it where, your quest starts while facing it, but at the same time you are at the spot www stops (halts). Next clue you will take it, this would mean the first two clues can solved before you leave this spot. This is why searchers that figured out the first two clues and didn’t know, Forrest said they contacted him and told him where they were at. If two different people contacted him with the first clue and then the same two searchers contacting him agian after locating clue two just dosn’t make sence to me, plus “If you don’t have the first clue nailed down you might as well stay at home,” right? To me they named a spot, just one and was just lucky, but not. If they went to clue two and contacted Forrest but couldn’t figure out clue three this would mean “if you don’t have the first three clues nailed down you might as well stay at home.” Right? Sorry I got carried away, ok two clues while in one spot because your begining it at the end of clue one wwwh, and at the start of clue two, and take it in the canyon down. you know the next line this is why we are in a car or truck it’s to far too walk. that’s all I can say for now.

  7. Hi
    Does anyone know the Forrest qoute about the “Lead Searcher”? I know someone on here was claiming to be the “lead dog”. Does anyone know if he said this qoute after that was stated or before? Where did he state this? I’ve been trying to find this.

    • This was in reference to being on a trail –

      “If you ain’t the lead dog the scenery never changes”

      That the one?

      • Pay tree, is this your first post?
        You sound familiar.
        Coffee shop to library to internet cafe?
        And thanks J.A.
        Maybe I just read some spins from this statement somewhere. I guess some people thought he was referring to
        Someone in the lead and people thought he was talking about them?
        I missed some things along the way.

  8. Sorry y’all guess my posts and your responses have now been deleted. Waiting on a response back from Dal. Something seems mighty fishy here…….

    • Just got told that it should have been posted elsewhere – and so everything was deleted. I simple heads up would have been the “polite” thing to do (IMO). I reposted my original post under “The Poem” but alas, we have lost all the later responses. Oh well, probably a fruitless endeavor anyway.

  9. Way off the subject right now but has anyone really taken a close look at the photo of Amelia Earhart by the plane in TFTW
    page 230..? The people in the background look very familiar, or is it just my imagination * who do you see…

    • Jake I know the phrase you are looking for and cant find it either. I think it is on MW. When I read it, it was immediately obvious (to me) why Forrest says not to search in the winter. It changed everything for me, truthfully. My take was that the TC is within an area where the roads are seasonally closed due to snow. Which reminds me of seasons, seasoning, and spices. I’ll look a little harder over at MW.

      • Yes Sandy! Thanks!
        I’m glad I’m not alone on this one.
        Yes, I think 2017 or 2018 as well.
        I had the same feeling “area where the roads are seasonally closed due to snow.” or wildlife protection.

    • hmmm, keep it up Jake. I like that comment. I don’t remember anything gate except in regards to his property, but gates and signs are a minor hint for me. actually, falls into 3rd clue area.

  10. Pdenver, anyone, … prior O&E thread…. RE: “Don’t make the alligator mad until you’ve crossed the river……..
    has anyone described the two arms of Hebgan as the jaws of the alligator? I keep relating to what might pass as a 13 year olds’ mnenomic devices (rules) that in adulthood might serve as metaphors.

    What explains that strange passage, and Beowulf ?

    • Hello OS2. I don’t recall if anyone compared the two arms of Hebgen Lake to that of an alligator’s jaw, but it seems it could work. Madison Arm looks more like the outline of an alligator in a calm state. The Arms could be compared to that of an old-fashioned can opener. The tail of an alligator while swimming forms meanders. Also, when one gets an alligator mad, they might hear a loud snap, (break/fault?). I know I won’t insult an alligator! Two arms/Arms may relate to time. These are some thoughts.

      • pdenver – Forrest worked on the Poem for about 15 years, before he hid the treasure when he was 79-80, right? And he thought he was born 100 years too late (paraphrasing).

        This YNP brochure was dated 1885 with “Alice in Wonderland” as the title:

        https://www.nps.gov/yell/blogs/alices-adventures-in-the-new-wonderland-brochure.htm

        That’s Lewis Carroll’s book title with “The Crocodile” poem in it. And the Croc’s lower lip is on the YNP boundary.

        All IMO. But so awesome!

        If Tick Tock from “Peter Pan” tips over, he will swallow all of Forrest’s memories along that No Man’s Land section of the Madison, downstream from the Barns Holes to Baker’S Hole. I think that was a Clock in “Peter Pan”, right? He was one of the “Lost Boys”.

        • Hello Lisa. I concur it has been stated that it took Mr. Fenn to work on the poem, and has stated he felt he was born 100 years too late. The latter makes me wonder why he states 100 years. Open range? Simple suggestion of time passed, which may lead us to his memories of his travel to Yellowstone/West Yellowstone? The arms on a clock, pointing to Hebgen Lake’s Arms? Manifest Destiny/Indian Removal Act (May 26, 1830)? I’m just letting the mind flow with thoughts.

          Thank you for the link. I enjoyed it. A few coincidences to the story of “Peter Pan”.

    • Cross the Mad-ison at the ford….. I think there are some swampy places or rapid place that might be troublesome… So I thought maybe it was a Fenn family joke. I looked one time long ago, but never found an Amos n’ Andy link.

      • Hello OS2. I don’t recall Amos n’ Andy in any of the books. Have you tried looking for other channels?

          • Hello OS2. Let me see if I can make some connection to Good Housekeeping Magazine. Good Housekeeping could refer to maids, and I think there’s an area in northern Montana which may suggest this. I found it on Google Earth a few years ago, and I haven’t found it since. Another idea for Good Housekeeping is a church. Magazines are delivered by mail carriers, which there is a story in the book about Mr. Fenn’s mother. Magazines may also refer to cartridges.

          • pdenver and OS2 – Or ‘male’ carriers of firearms, like Muskets, in the time of QE1. The saying, ‘lock, stock and barrel’ comes to mind.

            And, for that matter, so does, ‘hook, line and sinker’.

            You got me, Forrest, all this time. Why didn’t I think of all this sooner?

            You are the Master Joker of them all.

            But Robin Williams was really great as Peter Pan in “Hook”. And Robin was also a genius. And a Genie in “Aladin”…

          • Hello Lisa. Don’t tell Annie Oakley or Belle Starr, to name two, about male carriers.

    • OS2 and PD – at some point in the journey, Beowulf slays a dragon…(a mythical monster like a giant reptile) which reminds me of the poem that Forrest likes to quote – “How doth the little crocodile….” and now we segue into our alligator. Don’t we all have our dragons to slay?? Love these tangled webs.

      • Hello Sandy. Alligator, crocodile, lizard, salamander, axolotyl, may point to Axolotyl Lake.

        Another consideration for Beowulf might be a hero. There’s been several suggestions which may lead to this. Mr. Olds, and the heroes in the comic books, just to name a couple.

        • Maybe. There’s Axolotyl Lake just north of Hebgen… but south of Virginia City in the Gravelly range there’s a group of Axolotyl Lakes.

      • Sandy…. I’m sorry I wan’t clear… (brutal brevity – my fault). I was not referring to the epic poem but to a ‘not deliberately placed’ subtle hint of the kind that might also distract super-students off to far fields of inquiry, i.e., Lisa C’s forte.
        I wonder why FF would mention alligator & Beowulf at all. Just a memoir, good humor? Or something else? I think TTOTC is peppered with odd, vague, subtle references, which if taken together, might hint to the general search area. We forget how bewildered we were those first 5 years… and we still aren’t positive where it is.

        • A good hint is one that is dressed in meaningful or entertaining communication…. like the fox that dresses like the hound.

        • OS2 – You rang? About “Beowulf”?:

          Beowulf then tells Wiglaf to build a great cairn for his tomb that looks out over the sea which is now called Beowulf’s tower.

          Wiglaf is Beowulf’s ‘General’ or ‘First Officer’. And there is a ‘Beacon’ blaze in that Epic poem, also.

          Too far afield for you???

          • Yes. It’s too far afield.
            I was questioning the inclusion of the story in TFTW about FF’s pet gator, Beowulf. Was it a reinforcement of the alligator reference in TTOTC? It was an entertaining story…. a perfect opportunity for the Fox to casually drop another simple hint quite naturally. I prefer to think about the fox’s selections from the word buffet as he plated his paragraphs.

          • Hello OS2. Should the “plates” move, there will be a whole lot of shaking going on.

          • OS2 – I elaborated further on “Beowulf” and how it may relate to Forrest’s Poem, over at the bottom of the Poem thread. Where this discussion belongs.

  11. So, out of boredom I used a paraphrasing tool to take a fresh look at the poem and I thought I would share it . Here is the result:

    As I have gone alone in there

    Furthermore, with my fortunes striking,

    I can stay quiet where,

    Also, trace of wealth new and old.

    Start it where warm waters stop

    Also, bring it in the ravine down,

    Not far, yet too far to even consider walking.

    Put in underneath the home of Dark colored.

    From that point it’s no spot for the quiet,

    The end is regularly drawing near;

    There’ll be no oar up your rivulet,

    Simply substantial loads and water high.

    In the event that you’ve been shrewd and discovered the blast,

    Look rapidly down, your journey to stop,

    Be that as it may, delay inadequate with wonder look,

    Simply take the chest and go in harmony.

    So can any anyone explain why I should go

    What’s more, leave my trove for all to look for?

    The appropriate responses I definitely know,

    I’ve done it tired, and now I’m frail.

    So hear me all and listen great,

    Your exertion will merit the virus.

    In the event that you are daring and in the wood

    I give you title to the gold.

    Some parts seem comical, but then some make you say “hmmmmm…”

        • Oh c’mon – *everybody* makes decisions about the sense of the poem’s english.

          The most obvious example – can *anyone* here really execute the apparent instruction to “tarry scant with marvel gaze” without first figuring out what that means “in other words”?

          Trying to work out the sense of a poem’s sentences and the relationships between them is not messing with the poem. You can’t read a poem at all without doing it. Any poem, not just this one.

          Q – What does “where warm waters halt” mean?

          A – Don’t mess with the poem!

          It’s one of the oddest ‘rules’ in the game, based as it is on a throwaway line to dal taken completely out of context.

          Take Seeker’s reading –

          “Begin it when warm waters halt
          And take a look around . . . ”

          Completely messes with the poem, but that hardly disqualifies it as a way of looking at what the poem’s trying to tell us.

          (I don’t buy it, but that’s beside the point.)

          JAKe

    • If the poem took 15 years to construct in the first place a fairly random deconstruction like this doesn’t seem likely to yield results IMO. I’m not against non-literal interpretations, but they should acknowledge and respect the amount of effort and time that FF put into writing it, and not just change things willy-nilly. Random connections (sometimes leading to more levels of random connections, etc.) don’t seem like a useful strategy. This poem doesn’t reveal it’s secrets easily or quickly. All IMO.

      I’ve been thinking about the indications over the last year that there’s a lead dog, or someone who’s further along than the rest of us. But that person still seems to be stumped by something that Forrest sees as simple or obvious. I’m guessing that person isn’t lacking in imagination or intelligence (though his recent Q&A might suggest that their eyesight is suspect). So what is it going to take to solve the whole poem?

      • JW and all others,

        If a dollar bill is “found” on the counter of a convenience store, next to the cash register but just outside of the view of the store employee, who owns the dollar?

        Can it be freely picked up and kept by the “finder?”

        Are you obligated to ask the store employee?

        Is it stealing to “find it” and keep it?

        Does it belong to the store owner?

        What if it was a $100 bill? What if it was much, much, much more?

        • ken,
          Good answer.

          Ethical Dilemma,
          I’m not sure what you’re asking. I’m saying that the poem is difficult and won’t be solved by a lucky solver merely making the right random connections. You seem to be implying that it could be found lying around? Forrest said that no one is going to just stumble upon it so I’m not seeing the connection to a bill found laying on a counter.

          • I was asking for some conversation regarding – where folks draw the line on profiting at the expense of another? My point is that regardless of where the chest is discovered someone (government/individual/family/business/tribe/taxpayer, etc.) has at least a reasonable claim that they were victimized.

            I am suggesting that once the chest is discovered, reality will sink in and you will be forced to ask yourself, “Do I have the right to pick that up and carry it away?”

            I am suggesting that will be an ethical dilemma any moral person will be confronted with and is in fact an ethical dilemma that is continuing to keep the chest in place.

            An ethical searcher may find that to be the largest obstacle of all.

          • In the area that I’m searching the public agency that manages it has very clear lost and abandoned property laws that I’ve taken the time to read. If I find something I have to turn it into them and they hold it for 30 days (maybe 60, I don’t remember exactly), during which time they have to try to find the original owner. If the owner is found they are given the opportunity to reclaim it or relinquish their claim. If they relinquish their claim, or if the original owner isn’t found (not an issue in this case) the property is given to the finder. So I don’t see myself depriving this government agency of anything since they’ve spelled out exactly what should be done with found items.

            My dilemma would be that it seems like this treasure was in spirit given to everyone. So I would give most of it to charity, while keeping a modest amount for myself. This actually presents a larger dilemma since claiming the chest as personal property, then giving it to charity would still incur a tax burden on the finder. How to get around that is what I would spend my 30 days trying to figure out.

            I would only leave it in place, as you suggested an ethical searcher should, if I felt that Mr Fenn didn’t want the search to end. And if he indicated he still wanted to be involved in managing the hunt. If someone were to find it, leave it where it was, and assume the responsibility of managing the search for fairness and safety I think Mr Fenn would also approve. But that would be up to the individual, and for me I would choose not to assume that task.

            Looking back over what I’ve written is seems arrogant for me to have spent all this time thinking about what I’d do if I found it. I’m not the only one though, didn’t Forrest do this to foster some dreams?

        • EthicalDilemma,

          In the case of your convenience store heist example, the money on the counter is nothing similar to the treasure hidden in the Rockies.

          We are told by the owner of the treasure to find it out in the wilderness and keep it.

          The patron who spots cash or jewels or anything of any value anywhere within somebody else’s private property has no right at all to pinch it, I think.

          • Muset,
            Please see the post above. There is no land in America that -someone- does not claim to possess. Plenty of lands that someone might call “wilderness” but no land that remains unclaimed by a government, individual or other entity. Fenn may say “just take the chest” but that is easier said than actually done. IMHO.

          • Ethical Dilemma- taking the chest is reaally easy…if you use a camera.

            i think.

  12. I didn’t mean to offend with my up-thread post. I just thought it was interesting when I put a paraphrasing filter on it to see what alternate words would plug in and how they would translate. I am one of the biggest “poem purists” out there, but whom among us hasn’t looked into alternate word definitions in the poem? I’m sure there are a few words in the poem that have a double meaning, but what do I know?

  13. There are two things that recently puzzle me. Can anybody offer any insight on the following?
    First, it seems to me that when forrest speaks of the treasure chest, he committedly refers to the treasure chest.
    He doesnt seem to back and forth or interchangeably use the word ‘it’ or refer to the treasure chest as ‘it’ like he does in other instances.
    I have a theory on this but would like to hear another take if anybody has one.
    Also, i dont believe that the two trips in one afternoon were one with the chest and one with the contents. I also believe that these two tie together.
    Before offering up any discussion check out 11/2/13 moby dickens book shop q&a video excerpts. Particularly minute marks 3:42 & 11:04 and surrounding.
    Both places he catches himself. Of special interrest is “the weight of those…”

    • Badge R – Great observation! My response to you about “IT” vs. “the chest” is at the bottom of the Architecture of the Poem thread. Where this discussion belongs.

    • BadgeR… you may want to check out the interview with Richard Eeds 5/29/2015. Fenn specifically explains that one trip was for the chest and the other was for the contents because the combined weight was about 42 pounds. There is another specific comment where Fenn answers which was first and which was second.
      The other part you are talking about has been hashed over and some folks have intimated that there must be some motive for Fenn to be specific when he talks about the treasure chest vs. just referring to it as *it*. He has also referred to *it* as the “treasure” and “chest” individually in some instances… so that seems to put a wrinkle in any solid theory on that.
      The * poem* contains the words treasure and chest singularly as opposed to combined. The Chase bible(TTOTC) says on page 129…”So I decided to fill a treasure chest with gold and jewels, then secret it- …” and then describes the Romanesque Lock Box, ending with…”It was the perfect treasure chest.” After that the words are used singularly, in intermittent fashion as he finishes the “Gold and More” story.
      Personally, I do not see any tie-in to some defining reason to not referring to the treasure/chest, as *it*.

      • I’m pretty much in tight focus with ken on this one, BadgeR, and he’s covered the main points.

        From what you wrote I’m not understanding why these two things puzzle you, and/or what of significance you think could be hidden in there.

        JAKe

        • JAKe,
          Thank you for asking instead of shooting down a point that has yet to be made.
          Im thinking that once we arrive at the hidey spot, we should be looking for ‘it’ instead of the treasure chest.
          It is what the treasure chest is disguised as.
          Or hidden within.
          I think two trips were made because gold is heavy and forrest couldnt carry 42lbs plus the disguise.
          I know, 5/29/15 eeads, bblah, blah. Why was this not his story all along and the back to back stumbling (only 8 mins apart) and the story changes. Honest men are terrible liars. (thats funny, i like that)
          Several, or maybe its a few other random quotes that support this.
          Dont go where an 80 yo man couldnt carry 42lbs. Once asked why forrest thought the treasure hasnt been found yet, after asking for clarity, ‘why what’?
          He replies, because searchers havent discovered where ‘it’ is.
          Walked right past it…
          I wonder why sage says to not try to carry the treasure home in one trip. In mid winter ive carried a full 20lb propane tank and torch in addition to metal detector, water, binoculars and more.
          I think 42 lbs would not be a problem for most. But twice that?
          Little bit.
          And the kicker…something more than merely hiding the treasure chest made him laugh out loud.

          Perhaps

      • I was actually waiting for someone to notice that both times Fenn used *treasure chest* in the story “Gold and More”… he used the word *it*.

        • Here is another one Ken:

          “If you find the treasure please keep it in a vault for thirty days while you think. f”

          • Mark… thanks… there are oodles of others too. In simplifying things for myself after what seems like a hazy crazy journey, pretty much anything Fenn has said outside of TTOTC book has become an *either/or* choice in my book. Of course there are numerous safety facts he has shared and some other basic tidbits that can help disprove going down the wrong path. Aside from that…I’m sticking with his “good research materials” advice and moving forward. Keep on keeping on Mark…

    • Badge R-
      what IF….
      treasure chest=bronze box. (not treasure)
      “it” =treasure. (there is a difference)
      treasure=our national parks north of santa fe.
      THEN,you already own the treasure GOTO and need only to photograph “it”. (take)
      boolean expression, simple math.

      i think.

  14. Hi All;

    Just checking in. All is good. Am now in Roswell, NM. Will visit my step son today, and my son in Las Cruces (He is on a business trip to White Sands) Saturday – Then we head north on Sunday. STAY SAFE all

    JDA

      • Will do – especially the ones that fly very fast horizontally – and some crash 🙂 JDA

    • You are a lucky man JDA to have a step son to visit. I also have a step son but am not on visiting terms with him. It is sad and I have some regrets. But who knows, there is still time.
      J

  15. Has anyone else come across a solve that matches the exact words in the poem to the same named places on a map for first 5 clues”2 miles”. But it make no sense outside of that.

    • To my uncertain knowledge, the short answer is NO. The poem seems to use descriptions of places geographically. Double, even triple entendres, suggest place names. So simple and yet…..

  16. I just saw this!
    The Travel Channel is having a sweepstakes that could fund your search in Wyoming. I know it is a long shot, but it would be great to see one of our fellow searchers win the $10,000. You have to answer a trivia question each day on Wyoming to enter.
    Wyoming Adventure Giveaway. Good luck!

  17. The first Saturday in June is National Trails Day. The American Hiking Society is sponsoring events around the country…check it out and get involved. Have a good one…

  18. jim rice – Thank you for that great video with the daughter of Robin Olds presenting about her book. A civilian illustrator, named Jim Laurier, was mentioned in one of the photos. Which reminded me to go look for ‘JM’ from that pen & ink drawing on page 99 of TTOTC. I found a Wikipedia page with a list of civilian illustrators and the years they served, but those listed for 1968 didn’t match. One of those people, or others on the list, could be a good resource, though.

    This morning, Jim Milich popped up on my search result:

    https://www.aviationartofjoemilich.com/product-category/us-air-force/usaf-aircraft/page/8/

    There are great pics under ‘Miscellaneous’ of the Rockwell Commander and the Piper Malibu, Forrest. The site reminds me of the great drawings I saw in “Jet Fighters Inside Out” by Jim Winchester. That book had great schematics and descriptions.

    I will add the link next for that Wikipedia list of Civilian Artists in Vietnam below, in case anyone wants to chase this one down.

    • Lisa;

      Glad you liked the Olds video. I hope other people also enjoyed her work.

      Thanks for your tags, above and below.

  19. All,

    I have a question. For some reason I feel like I read a Fenn quote where he said something along the lines of someone emailed him a photo of the correct location and then he never heard from him again. Is this true or have I fabricated it along the way?

      • Hey-O, Sean –

        As Jake said, he’s mentioned at least once that people have sent him pictures of where they’ve been and he’s recognized spot(s?) near clue location(s).

        Then there’s the exchange with Rudy Maxa on Rudy’s Travel Show (17 July 2016), that *kinda* syncs up with your scenario.

        Maxa tells ff that he got an e-mail from a guy who’d heard ff was gonna be on the show. He said he knew where the treasure was, and was going out to dig it up, so Rudy might like to have him on the show with ff.

        MAXA – I said ‘listen, if you really think you’ve found it, send me a photograph of it. If Major Fenn validates it, we’ll have you on the show next week.’

        FENN – Well, you’ll never hear from him again.

        http://dalneitzel.com/video/rm.mp3

        JAKe

        • Looking at FF’s close to within 200-500 ft comments about searchers, it seems like those searchers were not actually searching at that location. Might of just been a side trip . Could be why they “didn’t know it”. This has been hypothesized before, just restating it.

          I dunno, just an idea.IMO.

        • That’s close but not what I was thinking of. I think I must’ve dreamed it or misremembered something.

  20. Well Jake, the only thing I know for sure is that it wasn’t me lol. I think we all create , to some degree, our own perceived “FF Profile” . He will not say anything to assist a searcher individually, but only collectively in what he says and writes. Any such assists are really just another riddle, just as difficult to perceive and decipher much like his poem is.

    So, in my opinion ,at the moment, I think those by feet statements were because of where people said they were during their whole trip-all the places they were on their trip vacation/search. I think these statements were safe to say for him because no one actually said the correct first clues for where and why they were actually there- just that they were there as an inclusive to their trip . He was receiving 20,000 emails et al. Therefore, he wasn’t giving anyone assistance by saying what he said.

    Though, there was/is a point he makes in the saying of it and not adding much to that ever since.

    The point remains the same today as it was back then. Just as many have been that close since, maybe every year; as have been that close back then ,but didn’t know it.

    Who knows, but that’s all I can reason.

    IMO

    • Patriot, I think he’s being rather specific about being that close to the chest when he said that because that is what he said…right? IMO .

    • That’s pretty good reasoning to me Alsetenash,
      I do agree on all points you said which is rare.

      “their whole trip-all the places they were on their trip vacation/search”
      Yes, it was probably a trip where they were either just sightseeing for several days but maybe also searching for several days and that would explain figuring the 1st 2 clues or the first and the going by the treasure and I suspect it was on different days.

      Going back to the 200′- 500′ comment(s).
      Yes, we have to also interpret the ATF statements correctly and the “lots” statement has me believing the treasure is within 500′ of a frequented place by people even though when he walked back to his sedan he said no one was around and he loudly spoke out laughing at what he did (paraphrasing).

      Could the place where he parked his vehicle be the same place 500′ away?
      It seems we are left with more questions everytime he said something. LOL

      • Rare indeed 🙂 . Yes, I think it’s a place of high frequency visits by people- safe for kids too.

        • OK Alsetenash and Michael,
          I appreciate the feedback and it certainly seems the 500′ distance away from the treasure may be a parking place, attraction area like a waterfall or overlook or hot spring etc.., a creek where fisherman frequent, not a dry creek, a trail that is frequented, gravel road?, trailhead sign or sign, split trail where they go off into 2 different directions, etc…

          At least I was able to eliminate a dry creek.

      • Could the place where he parked his vehicle be the same place 500′ away?

        Sure you could do that, at age 79 and make it an easier walk!

    • It’s important to remember that the chest is full of gold and jewels. But what Forrest considers “treasure” is far different. A medal, given to him by the South Vietnamese, a pebble that fell from the sky when a B-52 bombed near the place he was rescued in Laos, a $2.00 bill Peggy’s Mom would take and return to Forrest, an arrowhead he found when he was very young. A belt containing a turquoise buckle that has been worn for many years. Lastly, is one of these “treasures bold”, a silver bracelet, in the wrong chest?

      “My treasures bold” could be different than “my trove”. I can’t pretend I know how they are different, but I have wondered about it.
      Do we need to find out what “my treasures bold” are before we can understand and locate “my trove”?

      I simply throw this out there for fun. Over three years I have thought in many different directions. Happy hunting!

  21. Hey Dal, would you mind sharing the meaning behind the skull in your profile pic?
    Thanks!

  22. Proximity. a noun
    nearness in space, time, or relationship. IF Forrest uses the 500′ like he may use “not far, but too far tow walk” then it could meet the same criteria IMO of WWWH, imagine that people go by it at the end of a runway, say in a mountain airport, they certainly would not smell someone’s bones decaying say a mile or two away, they don’t open the windows of the plane to sniff for remains and look for a tc hidden in the wood below them, but still they went 200′ or 500′ from it….right?

    Why do we have to walk less than several miles if we can just pass or be within 200′ or 500′, and no human trail is nearby? Do we actually understand what a human trail is? I think that is a sticky wicket. Is a runway a human trail?

    How tall is a mountain? Forrest has defined 10.200′ as the upper limit and it is near some shorty up north somewhere, by shorty I mean he stated, near a mountaintop? Near is relative, but even in vague terms probably not much over 10,200 IMO. Say less than 11,000′

    Can anyone actually state out loud why the first stanza does not hint at or foreshadow the first clue WWWH or many other clues, am I dreaming? Cold it be so easy to see….using the first stanza, now what; on to clue 9 which by the way ff inferred google earth won’t help us because it does not go down that far (paraphrase) now what does go down far mean…lack of focus or resolution or hidden by time, it seems obvious to me time has obscured it somewhat like the image or walls of an ancient pueblo.

    TT

    TT

    • My feeling is that the blaze is some ancient place that ff once excavated I am putting all my marbles in that as the final clue.. Wise you must be to see the true blaze, but it is IMO a clearer now.

      We shall see in Fennboree if this theory is correct.

      TT

    • Tom T. To my understanding, FF meant the chest can’t be seen via GE because it doesn’t go down far enough. Unless you think the last of the 9 clues is the chest?

      I am one that does not think the first stanza is a pre-description of the first clue -wwwh. The first stanza is the begining of the poem. Though, I think that stanza has zero a shadow towards the first clue or any of the clues. First part of the first stanza is the begining of his story of what he was doing and the second part is what is forthcoming from him continuing with the story. The last stanza concludes the story.

      To agree or disagree in this aspect is nothing more than an infertile vine that will never hear the hum of such a bird, until the title of truth is in hand. No more likely than a dove will nest on the moon. Who knows? It’s good to be confident, non the matter. We work with our own established and decided patterns.

      In the RM’s, trees don’t grow much beyond 11,000 feet.

      Maybe I will be at Fennboree but it doesn’t look too likely I will be able to at the present .

      IMO .

  23. “Indecision is the key to flexibility.”
    Forrest did not say this correctly.
    I will complete it for him:
    “Indecision is the key to flexibility. And it gives those tempted, time to come to their senses.”

  24. Lisa Cesari
    interesting…IMO, 2 and 5 are simply 2 and 5 OR perhaps B and E…
    maybe B is a reference to home of Brown…
    maybe E is a reference to whatever “E” is in the context of one’s solve…
    I guess I’m more of the “simplify” mindset…

  25. So what is the “big picture”? We all have ideas of what that means. I for one tend to see it as a two part answer. The “big picture” is about the place where Forrest hid indulgence, and all it’s surrounding area(s).Second is “the big picture” of why & how Forrest came to choose this place.

    So maybe this is where a lot of “what if’s” come into place. Let’s start with the area(s) surrounding his secret spot.

    In my reverie I often find myself stealing away to that place and I will always consider it to be mine alone. f

    (No special knowledge of history is needed.)

    “What if” this area does have a unique history if one was to research it.
    “What if” when you do research you learn that many of the areas surrounding, and this general area itself, has an substantial timeline of historical events.
    “What if” in some of this research that there can be certain hints that can assist one in understanding clue solves. (of course “assist” is the key word here, but not needed in solving poem clues because those assist’s won’t be apparent until you’ve figured out clue answers.)
    “What if” this area “relates” to some things Forrest has talked about in ATF comments and scrapbooks here on hoD. (So hear me all and listen good)

    Why & How?

    “What if ” Forrest had been to this area in his travels “after” he got out of the Air Force.
    “What if” this close person he had been with to this area was after his service timeline and before he had his cancer surgery. Also this person “pasted this vale” years before Forrest’s Thrill of the Chase was well thought of by him. (two can keep a secret if one is dead)
    “What if” the atmosphere of this place helped him when he needed it the most.
    “What if” in this area it has all he ever needed to enjoy over time, especially the things he treasures most.
    “What if” some answers to these “what if’s” lie in the shallows and others run deep in the TTOTC book.

    Ok, if you already have considered some of these “what if’s” and believe you might have those answers, then I believe you are more then on your way to finding the blaze and looking quickly down.

    Of course all I write is just food for thought.

    Good luck all,
    Bur

    • Bur – I agree totally with what you said. Everything and everyplace has a history. This place, his special place, has a history that he can truly relate to. He connected his dots just like we all have been doing in drawing our own conclusions as to where this place may lie. Problem is there are so “fits” to this puzzle but only one correct way to make it all work out in the end.

      Perhaps I’m like that little dodo bird that can’t get off the ground because I think I can’t fly but with a little imagination and determination; I can maybe, just maybe, learn how to soar like the eagles. (You think they would let ME fly with them?)

      As always – this is only my thoughts .

      • Wwwamericana,

        If you have the TTOTC book and if you can understand Forrest some you can see things in the book that relates throughout his years. I don’t have his TFTW book but I have seen parts in it that will help with the TTOTC book.

        Good luck,
        Bur

    • Hi Bur
      I am glad to hear you are back and safe.can you tell us about
      your adventure?Clint

    • Hi Bur;

      Just got back from my vacation too. What a lovely trip. I Truly got the “Big Picture” – We drove from Pocatello, Idaho to Las Cruces, New Mexico – about 1,000 miles. This is the same distance that one would travel if they drove from the Canadian/UISA border to 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe. MY, what a treck. What a HUGE expanse of land. No wonder no one has found thaqt 10″ X 10″ X 5″ box.

      I love your What If’s – especially this one – “What if” this close person he had been with to this area was after his service timeline and before he had his cancer surgery. Also this person “pasted this vale” years before Forrest’s Thrill of the Chase was well thought of by him. (two can keep a secret if one is dead)” I wonder who that person might have been???

      Hope your trip went well, I know my vacation was GREAT – JDA

      • Hi JDA,

        Your trip sounds great. My was defiantly a adventure from the start all the way to back from where I stated from.
        Humm….

        Bur

  26. He has defined the ‘big picture’ as both time and place:

    There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. F

    “Somebody could find it tomorrow and it may not be found for a thousand years. I’m looking at the big picture. A lot of people who are searching for the treasure don’t see it the same way I do. I would love if someone found it tomorrow but if nobody found it for a hundred years, that’s okay with me too.” F

    Fenn said he understands the treasure hunters had to be cited for violating park rules, but is not sure the penalty fits the crime. “I think banning them from the park is going too far,” he said. “In the big picture of Yellowstone, how terrible is it to have a metal detector in your backpack?” F

    • OZ10 – Awesome post! Thank you!

      I believe Forrest’s “big picture” and his “box” we need to get back into are framed by the ‘Borders’ or ‘Boundary’ (former name of WYS) of YNP. Look at the YNP site to see the map of the original boundary “box”, when the park was formed.

      And “there are no short cuts” in YNP. Because if you go off trail, like the “lead dog” does, on foot or by bike, or “put in” on the Madison River in a boat, the Park Rangers are gonna getcha!

      Those roads that lead to my hidey spot are pretty “straight forward” (heading due East, then due Noth), and so is that single track bike trail, from the old Fennhaven Cabins to the bottom of my S blaze at Baker’S Hole. The one that follows the West YNP boundary due North.

      All IMO.

  27. Hi Clint,

    Might spill some beans off and on here. But had a pretty good search. Thanks for the welcome back.

    Bur

    • Clint, I will say that 8 of 9 clue solves I have work very good for my area, just like a road map per-say. Little rain so muddy jeans and boots but that’s what makes it fun.

      “Now Forrest what is your blaze?” To many that I see to search them all, in the time I had.

      Would clue #10 help? Yep.
      The final clue, he said, would be where they found his car: in the parking lot of the Denver Museum of Nature and Science.

      He had worked out all the logistics but one: how he could pull this off by himself, without help. He did not feel he could entrust anyone else to assist him. -Doug Preston foreword OUAW.

      Bur

      • Bur, I’m pretty sure Forrest will park his car in the same place you or I or anyone else would park their car. On all four tires. Does that help?

        • R. FISH,
          Funny you should say that. Skippy and Forrest kept used tires in the car in case of a blowout. That was a big discussion at one time. People thought tires had something to do in the poem solve. Well guess what, I was following my npuyc creek and in the middle of nowhere there was a tire half buried and appeared to be one from the 50’s or even earlier. How it got to where it was is a mystery, because no vehicle can travel up there.

          So there your answer wasn’t so dumb after all. Lol

          Good luck,
          Bur

      • Bur, I think you got your clues messed up.

        Clue #10
        The treasure is hidden higher than 5,000 feet above sea level.
        Clue #11
        No need to dig up the old outhouses, the treasure is not associated with any structure.
        Clue #12
        The treasure is not in a graveyard
        Clue #13
        The treasure is not hidden in Idaho or Utah

        • Ok you got me Jake. Thanks, so now I have to figure out the # for that clue.
          Dang!!!

          Bur

          • Just messin with ya.
            I really don’t see those add-ons as clues seeing they don’t give directions and/or are not specific places.
            They seem like guides rather than clues that get you closer to the treasure but these don’t.

          • Hi Bur
            I got a little hint for you about the how Forrests car was going to be in the parking lot
            and pull all this off by him self.
            No way in hell he could do it. Soooo
            must be something else he wants us
            to ponder on. Good luck Clint

          • Clint,
            Your comments here are so insightful and full of knowledge going back to 2016.

  28. Hi everyone. In many areas of the Rockies this year, the snowpack is at record high levels and Spring thaw is happening later than usual. Just yesterday, much of Colorado, northern New Mexico, and southern Wyoming have gotten slammed with 6-8″ of snow, which is very different from the past years that the Chase has been going on.

    Speaking from personal experience, a BOTG trip before the snow is melted is NOT a tremendous amount of fun. For those of you planning BOTG trips from other areas of the country (or the world), I strongly recommend holding off until later in the summer this year to get the most out of your trips. Heavy snowpacks mean a lot greater risk of avalanches in late Spring/early Summer in the high country. Stay safe out there!

        • I would love to but I don’t want to scare anyone away 😉
          All joking aside I think it would be great to go and put the comments to the people in person and to meet the man.

          It’s just too early in the season because I would like to search for the treasure while i’m in the area. Maybe some year it will be in August which works for me better so I guess I will just wait for the right time.
          Maybe when he’s 90 Fenn will decide to parachute down from the sky and I will be there to see that.

          • I’m sure he could do it! I sure wanted to meet you, but I’ll keep August in mind for next year! 😉

          • If I find it this Memorial Day Weekend I will send you the money so you can go to Fennboree Jake lol…

          • Jdiggins,
            I want to meet you too along with all the other Chasers.
            F’s 90th on the 22nd of Aug would be great, Mother Nature willing. I know as I get older I don’t like celebrating my birthdays or others unless they are kids but the big 9-0 would be special like in 9 clues and 0 have found the treasure.

            Thanks Mark, I’m going to hold you to that.

  29. Have y’all ever considered that maybe none of the clues are actual places in the Rockies? But then once answered, match or “marry” your answers to locations that are.

    Example only – “take it in the canyon down” could be the Grand Canyon;
    or “put in below the home of Brown” could be Cleveland.

    Where does Forrest ever say that we are confined to the Rocky Mountain region except to pick up the treasure chest?

    Just a thought……..

    • WWWAMERICANA, I have thought of that, and in fact have an actual place not in the Rockies I am engaged to, and one in the rockies to tie the knot with! I hope it is a UUnion made in heaven! Will soon find out!

  30. A couple thoughts.

    One thing that I’ve noticed over the years is that many searchers have attempted to solve different clues. Are they the wrong clues? Are they the right clues? Are they incomplete clues? What makes a clue anyways?

    How can a searcher solve a clue if they’re unable to correctly identify what a clue is?

    We’ve all seen it. Everybody’s clues are different. Sure, some folks may be doing it correctly, but the reality is, many probably are not. (IMO).

    Here’s the thing. How can a searcher begin to correctly solve this poem without first correctly identifying the true 9 clues from the get-go?

    Even now, after more than 9 years, there still is not a general consensus on what the actual 9 clues are. Or even clue #1, for that matter.

    Just an observation on this fine snowy morning.

    All IMO.
    SRW

    • A searcher doesn’t have to identify or define specific clues. But being very
      thorough with the entire poem can be very helpful. Also, a searcher doesn’t
      need a “general consensus” in order to achieve a great solve. As always, IMO.

    • SWR,

      I like thinking about the nine clues. Remember, FF said that after he wrote the poem he went back and looked at it to count how many clues there were in it. That’s a very telling thing.

      For myself, I understood the clues to be nine things I needed to unlock to find the path to the treasure. At times I thought the nine things were nine distinct places on a map; at times I imagined it meant places and vectors (directional cues). Currently. my nine clues are less distinct as separate entities unto themselves — there has been some blending as I have pieced together my most current solution.

      I think it is an error for anyone to start by assuming they know what the nine clues are — that seems impossible and will lead seekers astray. But I also think it is important to start where FF tells us – WWWH is the first clue. And at least some of them seem pretty apparent, such as hoB. I think working on the second stanza of the poem, as a whole, is a good approach.

      JMHO

      TH

  31. SRW,

    A long time ago here at the HOD I coined the term FennGlish. That’s about as close as I can get to explain what I have found in the poem. Learning what it offers is critically important and I cannot emphasize that enough.

    You’ll know you’re on the right track (the road to deciphering clues) once you identify the key word(s) that provide a starting point from which to build upon. Certain doors will open and you keep building from there. Then suddenly you ‘discover’ (figure out) a key component of the general search area, so now you can put a pin on a map. Scrapbooks, the stories, his books, etc., all now start making a little more sense. But just like in elementary school, education is a continuous process so you keep on learning and then the answers you are searching for in your question above begin to show themselves. All IMO of course.

    This is the best advice I can offer and sincerely hope it helps.

    Pinatubocharlie

    • Thank you Pinatubocharlie for your sage advice. I will consider it carefully. Your comments above are very much how I have tackled this poem as well. (IMO).

      I must apologize though. I didn’t mean to imply that I was struggling or confused with my own personal solve. Rather, I was merely observing the general status of the chase. It would appear that not much has changed over the years. (IMO).

      The old ants vs the elephants line of thinking.

      Thanks again Charlie. Good luck on your quest.

      All IMO.
      SRW

    • Pinatubocharlie,

      Personally I stay with marring the poem to a map, Scrapbooks, the stories, his books, etc., at least to me adds more clutter in finding the chest. Many times ff tells people that all you need is the poem and the right map, (paraphrased), then why doesn’t he mention scrapbooks or stories in his books as a means to find the treasure? Sure ff said that there are subtle clues sprinkled in the stories. I’ll go onto say provided you can find them, and that the “sprinkled hints” were unintended.

      If Forrest had written ONLY the book ttotc, do you really believe that one could/couldn’t find the chest? Of course one could, I personally think the scrapbooks muddies the hunt, its much like causing information overload, when there is that much information the best information is lost. (Do not get me wrong in what I am saying about scrapbooks or the books written as should be ignored, I am simply saying they muddy the waters in learning where the chest is.)

      I’m an old investigator, as one searches and learns, the real truth comes out. That is my approach, I’m thinking along the lines, in order and have to put aside some things that I feel aren’t relative and stick with facts.

      Facts are the poem, geography plays 100% into coming up with the location. Other facts are wwwh, canyon, not far, too far, hoB, meek place, drawing night, heavy loads, water high, blaze and in the wood, they are of factual places and things and the right map to take the path. Now those clues are not muddied at all, simple and bear truths that cannot be ignored, plain English & straight forward.

      “What If’s” is part of imagination that pertain to the hunt, that comes after the one thing that starts the path and the right right map, is to Learn the where’s and why’s that wwwh, with out nailing it down, there is no hope. I do strongly believe that folks have gone much further than the little girl from India did. What maybe throwing things off is near the tail end of the clues.

      Is my approach right? I hope so, if not, its not. It is merely my opinion on how to approach the search. I in no way am diminishing the stories, scrapbooks or anything else that Forrest writes, shares and what he says, sometimes narrowing the scope is helpful.

      Just Say’n

      • CharlieM;

        You say: ” drawing night, ” and then say: “Now those clues are not muddied at all, simple and bear truths that cannot be ignored,PLAIN ENGLISH & STRAIGHT FORWARD.”

        I disagree. The poem says “nigh” not “right”. “Right” is your interpretation of the word “nigh”. and I do not think that it is a straight forward interpretation, and I think that that interpretation should be ignored – JMO – JDA

        • JDA

          I don’t believe I said “right” it would help re-read what was said. I know and you know age causes an old mind to not be as fast and sometimes the glasses need to be cleaned to see clearly. I say that in gest. 🙂

          • CharlieM,
            I know you have been an investigative type of person probably a professional.

            Do you think that the hints in the book(s) are places or areas like West Yellowstone, Gallatin, Madison and/or New Mexico, Taos etc..?
            Or do you think the subtle hints are something else?

            I wonder because Fenn told us to mary the clues to “places” on a map and the places he mentions in TTOTC are wide large areas.

          • Jake

            I feel the subtle hints are not places or things, but possibly be a single idea that promotes a line of thought, such as the campfire of the Gypsies which may lead one to a campground. So a campground may be involved.

            All I don’t rely on the stories to give information of a particular place, it’s a word or words that may spark a thought. IMO

          • OK – It must be a typo – You said “drawing night, ” – an added “t” Sure looked like Right to me – Oh well – JDA

          • Could be a campground although it seems way far away from subtle.

            Being an investigator, for someone that has commited a crime or atrocity, where that person left the ultimate smoking gun or evidence, wouldn’t it be prudent to find out every place that person has been as the 1st thing you should do?

            The smoking gun is in a place(location).
            The atrocity was taken place at places.
            The clues in the poem need to be married to places.
            Fenn was probably at these places in the poem, how else would they stick in his memory?

            I’m not sure you would make a good investigator.
            Location, location, location.
            We already have the motives.
            There are thousands of campgrounds so that doesn’t slim things down any.

          • Jake,

            Let’s say a bad guy stole the tc and then hid it. A smart bad guy isn’t going to hide it in someplace that he knows would be obvious to all, but hide it in a place that is not obvious.

            I think ff would not hide the tc in a place that is obvious to all, such as YNP, or anywhere he has written about, or grew up. Familiar places that all would know about, would become too easy to find the chest. Obscure is where to hide, a very obscure place that no one is familiar with.

            Personally I don’t feel anything in or around YNP contains the chest, I’ve searched there and I think they are the joker. IMO

          • Jake,

            What you think about me, doesn’t really matter and you really don’t need to be attacking me personally, it isn’t going to help you in anyway.

          • CharlieM: – “Let’s say a bad guy stole the tc and then hid it.”

            You lost me there dude. I won’t go any further cause what you said is irrelevant.

          • Jake,

            I simply do not have anymore to say to you as it is apparent that you have such strong biases you won’t even entertain any other thoughts.

          • I’m not going to entertain hypotheticals of Fenn being a thief and stealing all the goods in the chest and hiding it.

            Go to the legal page and I’m sure someone will entertain you on that hypo.

          • Jake,

            IT was only an EXAMPLE for a way of thought. I in no way said ff was a thief in reality. The words “Let’s Say” means a hypothetical situation.

            Comprehension is not in your favor.

          • Sorry CM,
            I should have known better to ask you a question.
            I will try to stay clear of your comments from now on.

            Just Ask’n

      • CharlieM,

        Perhaps I am misunderstanding your comment, but it was never my intent to infer scrapbooks, stories, etc., were important to a correct solve. Like I said in the post, they just start making more sense (as you LEARN the poem) and for me I find that encouraging.

        I honestly cannot say I’m a poem purist, but I have become much closer to being one over the past year because of what I’ve found hidden within it and in plain sight.

        Hindsight being what it is, I now regret adding that sentence to my post because doing so inadvertently did muddy the waters, at least in your eyes. Perhaps another read and skipping that particular sentence will make more sense now.

        Please take care……… pinatubocharlie

  32. OK folks. I get it. I mean I know I don’t get it, but I “get it.” Got it? Did I really just say that? The chase really does get into you, LOL. Still working on my salve (needed for self inflicted wounds.) Ooh, ooh, I did another one. I am on a roll. One more peace (not again) of my puzzle to go….

    • Joe, please edit your messages before hitting “send” (or the equivalent). It’ll
      help you appear more sensible.

      Now, I should say something about the treasure hunt.

      In TTOTC, there’s a pic of Skippy holding a rock. The caption for that picture seems a bit unusual to me . . . so I considered a large rock I found on a search hike. But I didn’t carefully search very close to that rock (around, at, under, or on top of it). I am considering doing this on my next search trip.

      I also found a smaller rock that seemed like its location was more significant. This rock was more easily moved, so I did a quick search near/under it. I might go there again and be more thorough about searching at/near that one.

      As always, IMO.

      • TA – I believe it has been established that the picture of Skippy was taken in the parking lot for Lower Yelllowstone Falls. IMO. I agree that the caption is “a bit unusual” and like the idea of a proxy – you may well be on the “right trail”. Good luck.

    • Thank you Veronica. There are so many acts of courage and respect that we hear so little about; quiet band-aid acts to counter the shame & stupidity of our slaughtering each other.

      • I agree, OS2. A wise man once said “Countries and people should know enough to just leave other folks alone and do a better job of protecting our planet”

    • Hey Veronica, quick questions… Are you the same Veronica S that wrote the Featured Question about catching a fish on Jenny’s site? If so, was it exactly how you wrote the question or was anything changed to what you originally wrote? Thanks, mm

      • Sandy, You’re welcome.
        My father is a Vietnam veteran and I have always watched shows, read books and articles on the war to have some concept of what these men endured. I am amazed that he made it home.He was shot in ’66 and sent back , caught shrapnel in his leg @ Khe Sanh and his arm was nearly severed during the Tet Offensive. That injury had him sent to the Philadelphia Naval Hospital and then eventually home . I remember being young, looking at his left arm at that deep, twisted scar , banded around and distorting his tattoo. I asked him what happened to the bulldog, Dad? Does it still hurt? (his Marine Corps tattoo, bulldog with tilted helmet/Semper Fi) He just looked away and told me “not anymore, honey”
        I have never asked him about it again or anything about Vietnam. Its an unwritten rule in my family.He made it home, but part of him will always be there, so don’t pry. I have the utmost respect for all of our veterans and currently have a son serving in our Navy on a nuclear sub.
        I wish we didn’t have a need for nuclear anything.
        Maybe someday.

    • Your message reminds me of the name Arch Stanton. I love the movie that
      featured that name.

      • The Good, The Bad and The Ugly. Gotta love those Spaghetti’s. I can hear the famous tune playing now…
        Thank you , TA. I may have to watch that tonight

    • Thank you Veronica for sharing both the article and your personal memories. Reflections such as these touch the soul in ways that are difficult to explain.

  33. Some of the questions that I have always had about the Chase is
    What was f doing when he found his secret spot?
    Why did he feel the need to put some treasure there?
    Did he “put in” near where he had taken something out?

    I have an idea that he put in treasure back into the land near where he had taken artifacts out. He has a long interest in archaeology ever since he found his first arrowhead. Rather than looking for a fishing spot, we may narrow the search down to a dig. In New Mexico these sites are everywhere. But for me there is one where the colors of Olga’s tea matches the colors of ancient drawings of a rainbow…and a creek that you won’t need a paddle. Namely, Pot Creek archaeological site. And specifically the area below the overlook off of the highroad to Taos.
    But, this is my current obsession and my personal opinion. I have searched areas nearby many times. I get get a vibe there.
    https://www.smu.edu/Taos/PotCreek

    • Michael,
      I think you’re right that Forrest could have chosen a spot that has archaeological significance. I’m not a big fan of Pot Creek though since it’s mostly on privately controlled land and there are active digs on it. I remember driving the Taos/Santa Fe high road over thirty years ago. It’s beautiful and used to have a lot of character. I drove it again a couple of years ago and was struck with how much it’s changed.

    • I was thinking of nearby places off of the property. One place that I had explored is just to the north called Bear Wallow Canyon.
      36 17 34 N 105 37 08 W
      I had been there with my mother, but I couldn’t do a full exploration because I had left her in the car. And it was a good thing that I got back to her when I did, she was low on blood sugar. It is still a good spot to hike and explore if you go off the trail and up the creel as I did.
      Another spot on the Carson National Forest portion of the Pot Creek site is the mud creek where they had gotten the mud for their pottery. To the east of here
      36.2832, -105.5791
      But I am also interest in getting to the canyon beneath the Overlook. When the Aspen leaves turn a bright yellow in the fall it is one of the most beautiful places that I have ever seen. I just want to go down into the middle of it. The road is 439, along the Rio Grande Del Rancho AKA the Little RIo Grande.
      Nearby is Apache Canyon and Apache Spring, if that means anything. I just need a more appropriate car to get back there.
      Until then my interest is mostly in the beauty and the vibe, and IMO.

      • Wow, actual coords Michael! I have told this to others here in the past: If you know what you seem to know, you talk too much. I would not be talking

  34. Hi CharileM
    Will Charlie I gots four aces and a joker and I ain’t know RED NECK from
    Texas but I do have a PICK UP TRUCK. I’fin u all know what FENN is talking
    about u all might be getting close and I doin’t mean to TEXAS.just though
    I lighten up a bit.Clint

    • Clint

      You too, if I can’t share my thoughts, then why is this blog here? I get folks don’t agree, if we all thought the same there would be no point.

  35. Going to go do a three day loop in the Lost Creek Wilderness this weekend. Any solves I could borrow? Joking…

  36. In TTOTC book on page 4, Mr. Fenn says that his memoir is his ninth book of casually recounting the things he enjoys the most. He knew that searchers would be burrowing into his book looking for hints. But maybe the word “casually” is a clue as to how the book should be read? Maybe we are looking through the subtle hints looking for something deeper? Just my thoughts.

  37. What if when Forrest Fenn quotes “Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead” does NOT mean that one of the two are actually dead. But perhaps simply an apparition of sorts.

    And what if somebody else was privy to his secret? Let me quote from his book “It was vital that nobody share my knowledge about the location of the treasure.” I don’t think he was saying that nobody besides himself was aware of the location – instead he was saying that his “partner in crime” was vowed to secrecy.

    What do y’all think about those possibilities?

    • I think someone may have helped FF carry the goodies for most of the distance
      from the car to the hidey space. FF could have been alone for the last few
      hundred feet of the hike to the hidey space. This way, the helper wouldn’t know exactly where the hidey space is. This is not the rocket science needed to make Neil young and famous to a southern man.

        • I think that several years ago FF clearly stated that NO ONE else knew the hiding place, I think he meant that in a literal sense. (unlike a lot of his other comments) IMO

          • I think his dad may have known about the place, but he passed well before TTOTC.

          • You say “no ONE else ” – so maybe that means more than one knew {or knows (no’s)} …….

          • It’s all a matter of degree. I know the hiding place (i.e.,
            what mountain range the treasure is in). As always, IMO.

  38. The Chase is a lot like checking your mailbox on a Sunday, …
    and then you check it again on Monday and it’s Memorial day.
    😛

  39. I was just re-reading the “Fundamental Guidelines” that FF posted in June 2017.
    I had always consider “worth the cold” could refer to wading across a river but I hadn’t notice that the last “Guideline” is:
    “It is always a good idea to wear a personal flotation device (PFD) when you enter fast moving water. even if you are a strong swimmer.”
    FF has said that Indulgence is not hidden under water but he never said that it was not on the other side of a creek or stream that you have to wade across (no place for the meek?). Don’t risk deep water, remember the second and probably the most important Guideline:
    “Don’t search anywhere an 80 year old man could not carry a heavy backpack.”
    Also
    Just a thought, all IMO.

    • Hi Not Obsessed,

      Your post is interesting as I was just about to post this:

      On June 29th, 2017 Forrest went on record and issued a safety warning about the location of the treasure chest and stated that:

      “The treasure chest is not underwater…..”

      I’m wondering if this statement still holds true today, given the record amounts of heavy rain, snow and Spring flooding that we’ve had this year.

      We also know that Forrest has said that he “tried to think of everything” (paraphrased). Did he think of this?

      IMO
      SRW

      • Hi SRW,
        I think he did. IMO you don’t have to worry about that. I think the TC is hidden way above the waterline.
        — MK

        • SRW, I agree somewhat with Majin King, the hiding place in not in a area that would flood, He made sure that it would stay in place for “hundreds” of years.
          I’m also think that the PFD may be related to the two drownings, not that you will have to cross a body of water…. but just a possibility.
          There also is the guy that had to be rescued twice in YSNP, after crossing a river unsafely.

          • Thanks Majinking and Not Obsessed.

            I also agree that the chest is not likely located anywhere near a flood zone.

            It’s these two comments from Forrest that keep creeping back into my mind:

            1. “The treasure chest is not underwater…..”

            2. “and I know the treasure chest is wet.”

            They seem slightly contradictory. Just trying to make all the pieces fit together in some sort of rational way.

            Thanks again for the thoughts,

            IMO
            SRW

          • SRW;

            If indulgence were to be secreted where a rivulet goes under ground – Would this not make both statements true? Indulgence would be wet, but not underground. Just a thought – JDA

          • Another thought is whet which means a thing of interest or desire which the chest is

        • Hi JDA,

          A rivulet, underground? Yes. That works. I’ve got a couple of those at my search area. I’ll be taking a look on my next trip out.

          But I was also wanting to consider some other possibilities. There might be something more site specific and more relative, based on my search area and the poems clues and to where they have led me to my end spot. No way to know until I revisit that spot.

          There could be more than one way to crack this tough nut. Just keeping the big picture in mind. (IMO).

          Thanks JDA,

          SRW

          • Isn’t it ironic that “the big picture” might involve looking for a significant visual thing that kinda symbolizes something else that is typically pretty small?

      • Hi, SRW. A couple of other Forrest quotes related to this:

        1.) “physics tells me the treasure is wet.”

        2.) “Wearing waders in fast moving water is dangerous, especially if you don’t have the chest type with a tight belt around your chest that will keep most of the water out if you should fall. The rocks in most moving water are slippery and falling is easy. Your waders should have felt soles and not rubber. Don’t take chances, and remember that in many cases no can be a better answer than yes.”

        The best idea I’ve come up for the physics idea is condensation. If the chest is hidden in a cool shaded spot, warm air will cause droplets to accumulate on its surface. Also the clouds in the Rockies typically rise and descend with the sun each morning. Maybe there’s other principles of physics Forrest is thinking of, but I believe the implication is that the chest may be in a cool, shaded spot (and of course covered with falling and melting snow over the Winter).

        Many people have voiced opinions that Forrest going into so much detail about waders in that second quote implies that at least crossing a small stream may be part of getting to the hidey spot.

        My advice is if you believe you need to cross a stream to get to your search spot, don’t do it in June. A rushing torrent in June typically dies down to a babbling brook in July or August. A searcher who has made a long journey to a search spot only to be faced with a rushing torrent may be wrongly compelled to risk a dangerous crossing. Please prioritize your safety over all else.

        • Thanks everybody. That sums up nicely the “not underwater” and the “is wet” scenario.

          Tonto: I have heard of the suggestion of “whet” having been brought up before. That is something to consider, for sure. Thanks.

          Blex: The other quotes that you brought up are good ones. I have been considering all of them, collectively. The “physics” comment I have tried to keep somewhat simplified. Knowing that “specialized knowledge” is not required, I try to keep in mind that I don’t have to be a Physicist to figure that one out. I’m hoping that’s the case, because a Physicist I am not!

          The condensation idea is a very good one too. My only concern with that idea is that it often describes large areas of land or sometimes entire hillsides of a forested area. It’s almost not specific enough, but I still keep that one in the back of my mind too.

          And the “waders” comment. I like that one. I think there might be a few nuggets to be had in that one.

          Lastly, thanks again for the reminder Blex…Everybody, please keep all of your water crossings safe (both auto and on foot).

          Ace 340: I also think the chest has been hidden beyond the flood zones. I’ve seen some of our local streams recently and they are a mess. Mucky debris everywhere, trees down, land displacement, etc. I don’t think Forrest put it in that. Or at least I hope he didn’t!

          Thanks again everybody. Have a great holiday weekend!

          All IMO.
          SRW

          • A few other things he said regarding wet (moisture):

            2013 – “I put the $1,000 bill and two $500 bills in the treasure chest originally but after thinking about it I took them out because I didn’t know how moisture would effect them over a long period of time. I wish now I had left them in the chest. You can file this information under Misc in your trash can. f”

            2014 – “Although I am not ready to say the treasure is not in water, I certainly didn’t want moisture to enter the jar”

            Interesting how he said “I am not ready to say the treasure is not in water” as if he knew he would say that at some point in the future? It almost sounds like he said it then?

            And SRW, the whet vs wet has been brought up before, the Treasure has definitely whet the appetite and whet the curiosity of many so it is whet by that definition, but conventional wisdom deemed that he meant wet as in moisture/water wet not whet, especially when he typed it out as opposed to saying it, but then again once he typed this out in SB122 here at Dal’s:

            “Necessity wets the wits of the inexperienced and that meant I had to move quickly.”

          • That says it all right there: “Necessity wets the wits of …”
            Thanks Mark, I wish I had seen this earlier.
            Oh well.

          • Lol. Yea it’s a good quote Jake. I always make a note when he misspells a word for some reason ha:

            “For instance, emblazoned upon some of the bronze bells I’ve buried are the words, “Imagination is more important than knowlege.” If I had spelled that last word correctly it would not have had the profundity of meaning I wanted. To misspell the word emphasized my point that having knowledge is, in fact, not as important as being resourceful. Also, when I make a mistake through ignorance that ploy gives me a degree of deniability that I routinely need.”

          • Mark from T town….
            So I think these mispelled words. Intentional or not….
            Bee the new treasure hunter slang speak…..

            Even our own.

        • That quote about “physics tells me the treasure is wet” always reminds me of the story in TToTC where Forrest asks the schoolkids in his gallery if the bronze Indian sculpture is hot or cold, then asks them to touch it. In turn, that story always makes me think about the fact that a cold glass of water (or anything else cold, such as a bronze box) will “sweat” with condensation when there is humidity in warm air.

          I take that as a hint that perhaps the chest is in a spot where humid summertime air can condense on the bronze. In wintertime, humid air would cause frost instead. By this notion, the chest could be hidden near, but not actually in, a water feature … or any other place where the air gets humid. And Forrest could determine the likelihood of the chest being wet just by checking the weather forecast for that area.

          Just my opinion.

  40. Sometimes I think it could be lodged in a tree or hillside above water levels but still exposed a bit to some of the elements. g

    • About six feet up on the bank of a creek or small river. Therefore, when FF said the TC was wet, I believe the creek/river had risen and inundated the TC, but the TC was not dislodged from the spot.
      Remember the bear cubs story. There is no way a wild mother bear would let a human touch her cubs. A hiker in the Great Smoky Mountains was killed several years ago by a mother black bear. The hiker, on a trail, crossed between the mother bear and her cubs. The hiker was attacked and unfortunately killed. So my theory is the cubs in the story are representing the two parts of the TC…contents and chest.
      As always, IMO.

  41. Perhaps if we all ask – Forrest will say a few words in observance of Memorial Day.

    So many lives lost in all of the wars from the Revolution thru to today in an effort to retain that which is the most sacred treasure of all – FREEDOM. It comes at such a cost.

    Y’all have a safe, enjoyable, and blessed holiday weekend.

    • You as well. Managed to get my final BOTG in (no luck but I crossed off my imagined line crossings) and now to relax by a fire by a lake.

      On a side note for BOTG searchers make sure to check for ticks.

      • Final?
        Enjoy the blaze by the lake and hope to see you back out there again.

        • Was my final trip for this year at least (already made 3). There is a remote chance I might get a 4th but I doubt it.

  42. “You’re going to have to figure out the clues. Go to the first clue, and then the clues are consecutive after that. If you can decipher the clues, you’re gonna find that treasure chest.” THE LURE- POST SCREENING 2017
    “I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally. The poem, and the rest of the book. And then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times. Study every line. Every word. Then after you do that, read the book again slowly with the idea of looking for clues or hints that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.
    REPORT FROM SANTA FE WITH LORENE MILLS- 1st APPEARANCE 5/13/2011
    I like the first quote because (I think) it cuts through the grease and says that the clues can be figured out previous to going BOTG. Of course, it is logical(I think) that a searcher has to physically be (AT) the correct spot(within a few steps) to find the blaze. It is abundantly clear(as mud) that opinions are vastly varied on the point at which one needs to be onsite and/or whether the clues are decipherable before or after that. Logically, to me, it does not seem likely that this Chase is designed as a hunt and peck(solve in the field only) type adventure. Fenn’s comment about frankly being surprised(no findy treasure yet) in the thousands of square miles of searchable area seems like a direct nod that someone CAN BE certain beforehand.
    I like the earlier version(how to do it) because it seems that Fenn was more candid and less scripted(especially with Lorene). His *clues or hints* in the book comment was previous to the big debates about what is a clue vs what is a hint… and where to find them. Back then everything was a clue according to Fenn. He didn’t need to be as disciplined in his comments it seems.

        • I do not have the foggiest notion. No time to research it…..can you tell me what it is, in few words?? 🙂

          • LOL!! Good one! I was gonna guess ‘lazy hunter’….lotta vegans around these parts, eh?

            Good Luck to ya guy……and nice to see Seeker gettin’ his groove back!!!

          • Loco,

            I finally finished my book, so I have a few extra minutes… well, between mowing the lawn, trimming hedges, shooting squirrel who ate some wires on my truck… nothing more than dang cute rat, But make a heck of a meatball.

          • Jake,
            I meant on the electronic book shelf… Waiting for my copy of the paper back version to review before it goes on the shelf.

            But thanks for the offer anyways.

        • Ken,

          Can I play that game that you proposed?

          “Vegan” in the Kiowa tongue and virtually every other native American language would be synonymous with “hunger” or “starvation,” depending on how many days into the diet the individual was experiencing their lack of fish or game.

          (That was fun!)

    • Ken … Your analysis is well written and clear. And I agree with your conclusions. Don’t know why Seeker and others have to make the analytical process so difficult and convoluted.

      Ken (in Texas) 🙂

    • LOL Ken,

      Yep, everything seems to be a clue to fenn.
      He even called “in the mountains N of SF a clue” {Q&A)… right? That was strictly a reference from the book.
      Is “knowing” about 9 specific clue a clue in of itself?
      We also could debate the comment about GE [ and possible a map of any kind ] can not help with the last clue… mainly because we need to decide if the last clue is a place or an instruction. Should it be a place, then we really can’t find ‘all’ the clue references on a map / GE [ which both seem equally useful as a tool ].
      We also have a comment about ‘rocking chair’ searcher only getting the first few clue [ few is subjective as well, but less than all the clues, right? ] but a physical present is need on site, seemingly after that.
      I use to think we could discover all clue references at home, only now with fenn telling us he followed the clues, there’s no other way to his knowledge but to do exactly that… a physical need to be on site seems more about a clue or two or three… than “just” going to retrieve the chest. IMO, We seem to need to know why that is, beforehand.

      ~ …go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times. Study every line. Every word…
      Here’s the thing… Study every line, Every word, seems very important to fenn and not just our hopeful 9 pieces of it [ we all know how long that took, told us how he worked through it etc. Looked up words, definition, designed it, even told us it was one of the very few thing he planned out. ]
      What exactly is meant by the book will help with the clues?

      He warns us the path [ imo – the deciphered clues ] will not be direct without knowing/certainty of the “location beforehand.” I’m working on the assumption that the book might give up the “location” of the clues… not so much help decipher individual clues, that is our sole job.
      Side note; I’m not saying the book won’t help with the idea of a single clue, but not all, I’m saying or thinking, the book helps by putting the right thoughts in our heads and putting us in the right area for us to start figuring out clue reference.

      The poem’s only job seem to be the tool that gets us to the blaze and the prize.
      The catch 22 imo is, where we figure out how to get to the clues.
      I don’t think clue 1 is the magical reference that give up the location. Clue 1 seem to be how we start that “path” to discover the other clues. But we need to know which one [WWsH] out of the many to go to first. Hence the warning of “certainty of the location beforehand”

      I’ll add the little tidbit from Cythia’s recalling of something fenn said; She …manufacturing warm water halt… I think we are all guilty of that [being target fixated].
      Deciphering a clue [what it refers to] is not the same as knowing where it is at / the location of the clues.

      Like the post Ken, I just felt we need to add a few more related comments to help keep the analyzing process to be as best as possible, before jumping the gun.

      • Agreed… the process needs more fine tuning and I can see a lot of leaks that need plugging for sure. Be it all places, or some places with guidance instructions… it is a sure thing that the nine clues are in the poem and that they need to be deciphered/discovered/figured out. This reminds me of the *Emily* Q from 2013 about the bridge club that wasn’t into poetry but loved the book(TTOTC) and was wondering if there were answers to the clues in the chapters. Fenn’s answer; “Emily, all of the information to find the treasure is in the poem. The chapters in my book have very subtle hints but are not deliberately placed to aid the seeker. Good luck in the search”
        Here’s another one from 2014 from Phil; Is the chest hidden in the exact same spot that you would like your bones to be found, or is it a short distance away for reasons beyond your control?
        “The spot is the same, but in less than two months…”
        This particular comment seems to indicate the *exact spot* where the treasure is…which ties back to his special place that he was going to make work no matter what. In the grandest of schemes, is it a 10″ *spot* or more likely a secluded/hidden/secret place/spot large enough for the chest and some bones? Either way… it is a specific place in the end. Backing up a bit… the blaze…*in a word* it is an object of some description. In the physical sense… it surely occupies a place, that apparently may be within several steps of the target.
        I’ll skip some other stuff and head into your *magical reference* comment about the first clue. Which is it Seeker? The beginning, the end, both, a viewing place to observe or other? If it is any of those listed… I say it is probably loaded with some sort of magic that some would pay dearly for. I believe that any searcher that nails that one down and knows it for sure will be the successful finder of the treasure. So far, I think some may *suspect* enough to get close…but clearly don’t have that clue nailed down at all. I believed for a time that the hang up call happens because of the second clue third clue transition…but am more inclined to believe it is a failure to correctly understand the first two clues entirely.
        Ah… the book! The pages are wrecked in mine…wrinkled and ripped with coffee stains and puppy teeth marks. Definitely a used specimen. I’m still undecided… but I think I have not used it properly. I do not think it has any answers in it.

        • Ken;

          I have to disagree that TTOTC does not have any answers in it. I believe that the answer to the riddle does, in fact, reside in the book – JMHO – JDA

          • That’s quite okay JDA ! * Subtle Hints* and *answers* are two different things to me. I believe that the answer to the riddle is probably so simple that a kid could figure it out…but I don’t think the direct answer is in the book. It’s all good that folks differ…

          • My advice to all is: “Forget the books. You don’t need them unless you’re really stuck with any one of 9 clues. Just stick with the poem and try to decipher the locations and the path through them to the TC.”
            Seeker said, “I don’t think clue 1 is the magical reference that give up the location. Clue 1 seem to be how we start that “path” to discover the other clues. But we need to know which one [WWsH] out of the many to go to first.” But I disagree with that. Please just “look at the big picture” as FF said. The big picture will reveal where to go for WWWH.
            — MK

          • JDA wrote:
            “I believe that the answer to the riddle does, in fact, reside in the book …”
            ——————————-
            What riddle? I don’t think there is one.

            Our only objective is to find the chest, the location of which is identified by clues in the poem, independent of the book.

            Use of the word “riddle” suggests a child’s game, thus trivializing the overall process of searching for the chest.

            Ken (in Texas)

      • Seeker,

        Very well stated and a lot of what you said I have entertained in my thought process for sometime. It’s my belief that I have resolved a understanding of Fenn’s path to the chest.

        The blaze is the one clue that has me pondering it’s answer. Could that answer reside in the Forrest ATF comments somewhere or is there that hint in the TTOTC book. Guess my research has returned to where I started. “If you’ve been wise” and found the blaze???

        One of two (connected) hints I found in the book only relate to the first clue and the couple of other hints relate to the area(s) surrounding the rest of the clues. (Only understood after solving most of those clues first)

        Seeker, your statements above are ones others should consider if they are in need of figuring out all that is needed in Forrest’s “big picture” IMO.

        Good luck with the book,
        Bur

        • “The poem was written to assist all searchers. In my mind, studying the clues is tantamount to using a road map to get from one place to another.”

          • JDA, that’s quite similar to my approach: “Big Picture” to tight focus. I think the main difference is that I’m also using numbers (figures?), particularly to sequence the end moves and to make sure that I stand, start, and stop in precise spots.

            I don’t think it matters too much where you park, but I do think it matters the kind of trips you’re prepared for.

        • Bur,

          All I’m really doing is attempting to figure out how searchers who live and breathe the chase can; be on site… with decipher clues… in order.. as many as four clues [possibly- we still don’t know if those folks were on site or only mentioned those clue in some form or another]… get within a couple hundred feet of the destination, may even have other clues correctly mentioned – just not in the correct order… and still don’t know they had anything correct.

          That is a very telling circumstance, imo, It tells me the searchers / readers are not seeing it the way fenn may intended it to play-out.
          Some bloggers would say I’m throwing in too many ATFs and creating the scenario above. I’ll add fenn’s comment;
          ~People have figured the first couple of clues and unfortunately walked right past the treasure chest.

          There have been many discussions on this, and my thoughts keep going back to how the instructions in the poem are being read or possibly misunderstood. I use the word instructions, rather than directions, because I believe certain words and phrasing of words have different action then most might think.

          One simple example is “take it in” the canyon down. So far, in all I have read from searchers / blogger and their actions is, they all left WWsH to travel a canyon in some manner. I think it is meant as; “look in” the canyon down. Which changes the whole idea of how the poem might be read / executed.

          It still ‘plain English’ although others may not agree… they would like the poem to be ‘simplistic English’.. rather than an author’s word choice in a “poem” deliberately designed to hold information we need to understand, without simply giving it all away.

          Folks with deciphered clues, on site, near the chest, tells me the searcher’s clues *references* could be / are correct… only their process of execution and/or understanding might not be what they think it should be.
          I’ll give another example of an ATF I think folks don’t see it the way I do;
          ~Try and marry the clues to a place on the a map.
          I think it states a single place / area with all the clues contained within, and not so much the idea of 9 different locations, spread out, that need stomping / traveling to each.
          We also have fenn’s warning about certainty of the location beforehnd… for me this is the first and foremost thing to know of… even before we tackle WW’sH. Knowing the “location beforehand” imo is where all the clues are at, and not so much the idea of where a 10″ sq spot is.

          It doesn’t matter what I said, it only matters what you think I said… line of thinking.
          I think the poem has done its job very well…

          • I agree with all that you say Seeker – especially the last line – “I think the poem has done its job very well…”

            Almost 9 years and counting – WHEW – JDA

          • seeker… sounds great. I think you may have added a tenth clue in there.
            “You have to find out- you have to learn where the first clue is. They get progressively easier after you discover where the first clue is.” This comment from Fenn iterates clearly the most important step. BIWWWH…the first W is *where*.
            The quote Bur supplied is a great one that illustrates a reference to a road map. Most road maps are fairly basic point to point illustrations(with no viewing capabilities) that denote the specified routes .
            Similarly… what if the *marry the clues to a place* quote actually means(which it definitely could) [each] clue to a place? I smell what you’re cooking but I think you may need to turn the heat down a tad.
            Here’s a Q for ya. If you think everything takes place in a tight area that involves viewing two or more clues from one location, how do you justify/reconcile the *two trips* and *less than a few miles* when Fenn walked/followed all the clues? I’ve played that out numerous times over the years…especially in my early *viewing* ideas…but never really thought this could make all of the comments ring true to each other.

          • Hi Ken;

            I seem to always be putting my nose in where it is neither wanted or needed, but – to answer your question, ” If you think everything takes place in a tight area that involves viewing two or more clues from one location, how do you justify/reconcile the *two trips* and *less than a few miles* when Fenn walked/followed all the clues?”

            How about the two trips and the few miles takes you from a parking place to where you do the viewing from? Park – hike – View, starting at WWWsH. Makes sense to me – but then again, what do I know? – Probably nada – TRY and STAY SAFE all – JDA

          • jda…so you’re saying the parking place is wwwh? This illusive *parking place* seems like a tenth clue that would have to be reconciled and included in the poem don’t you think?

          • Hi Ken;

            Not wanting to take up too much space, I gave a shortened answer. Here is the longer version. I have a “Big Picture” solve that takes me through the nine clues (as I see then) over a roughly 20 mile trek. My END (the END is ever drawing nigh) place is where I park. I end up at Water High – find the blaze (Which is at/near the Water High place), look down and do not find Indulgence – Darn.

            I then start my “Small Area Visual” solve – starting at my previous Water High spot – which now becomes my WWWH spot. I then make a visual “search” – starting at WWWH – canyon down – hoB – NPFTM – END place – NPUYC – HL&WH. – See the blaze, hike to it (First time I have moved) etc. until I find Indulgence (I hope).

            Hope that this longer version is a bit clearer – JDA

          • Ken, JDA, & Seeker

            As far as how many clues can be seen from the first clue. I have come across, in my findings, that there are three in that general area. Those would be WWWH, canyon down, home of Brown – but not the “put in” place. You need to travel down the canyon about a mile to this place. No other clues solves can be seen at the put in place until you start up this trail to the left, and get off the main trail you were on. Then you come across npuyc creek and have to keep traveling up that trail and come across heavy loads, then more so up is water high. Can the blaze be seen somewhere on either trail before you get to water high I don’t know at this point of my search.

            Not sure if “my clue solves locations” will help in the answers you all are searching for, but for me they are there waiting for me to understand the blaze.

            Good luck guys.
            Bur

          • Thanks Bur;

            I pretty much agree. “Seeing” the blaze, and “recognizing” it for what it is MAY be two entirely different things. That’s the way I see it in my area anyway – JDA

          • P.S. – I guess you would have to be as wise as an owl to figure that out – haha – 🙂 JDA

          • Ken,

            One parks where they can and walks to wwwsh. This may be a distance from where you park… And located by using a map.

          • Ken,
            I should have added;
            it’s not the parking area that matters much. I assume fenn, knowing the area well, parked as close to “the clues” as possible. Then had to hike to where they are [ where WWsH is ] stand in the correct spot [ at the blaze I assume ] hide the chest, at or near by, the blaze. and hike back to the car for the next load. Using the same route in and out.

            Many assume the travel is going from clue to clue… I think the travel is to get to the clues.

            When looking at a road map without knowing the exact destination, one must “see” those direction on the map to find the destination. However, we have been told “looking” for later clues is a folly… why is that?

            “…marry the clues to “A” place on a map…” seems to imply a place [“certainty of the location beforehand “] where all the clues are at… or seen from.
            Now we start piecing together the clues references.

            OS2 asked how do the line cross [ or something like that ] well, they cross ‘your path’ in the same place you are standing at… the only place where you can “read the map” line of thinking.

            The logic is simple… it’s the idea that most don’t understand or dislike. And it all starts with how “Follow and Lead” are understood.

  43. * To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest, although I hid it before the poem was complete. (Completed?) f
    (posted 6/5/2107)

    What did fenn need to do to complete the poem? What was not complete or completed prior…

    In this comment, the chest seems secondary to the comment; He “hid” it [the chest] *before* the poem was complete – completed?

    There are many thoughts about this comment. One of mine; Is fenn “special place” where he wanted to hide the chest, the same exact 10″ sq spot the chest lays in wait? Or the overall area the clue’s references are contained within.
    IF his special place is where the clues are all within, line of thinking, did fenn have to find the chest’s hidey spot from his own created / designed clues?
    He told us the chest is well hidden, secreted, and nobody will stumble upon it. So, it seems to me that can be accomplish in many manners of hiding something. So, is the hidey spot [ a 10″ sq inch spot ] known to fenn before hiding the chest… or did his own clues lead him to a spot to place the trove?

    This brings up the pondering of the blaze. Is it something known prior to fenn, or something he created and/or utilized at the spot the clues led him to?
    I as I have suggest before… we are not really looking for a trove, that’s just a lure and a prize. We are supposed to discover a blaze.
    Be that a marker, or an indicator to show or point to somewhere. Was this blaze known to fenn before he actually “followed” his own clues?

    “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze…” This line [or part of] seems to imply a *discovery* of said blaze. Meaning, you’ll only know it is a blaze [ be it whatever the blaze is for ] once you, I or even fenn follows clues references. Which raises one last question… how important is the first clue related to the blaze?
    IMO, the reason fenn may have put so much stock in telling us to nail the first clue down, without it you have nothing, looking for later clues is a folly etc., It [WWsH] might just be where the chest lays in wait.

    • Hi Seeker;

      You bring up some very good questions. I am reminded of the TS Eliot quote:
      We shall not cease from our exploration
      And at the end of all our exploring
      Will be to arrive where we started
      And know the place for the first time.” F

      I have a “Big Picture Solve” and a “Small Area Visual Solve”. I actually think I need a “Very Small Area Visual Solve.” The “Big Picture solve” covers about 20 miles, and takes me to my “Small Area Visual Solve” area.

      Once at where I think Indulgence is secreted, I think that it is possible that what I thought was the blaze, may, in fact, not be the final blaze. I think
      that my Water High could become a NEW WWWsH, and that I need to “Take it in” (View anew) the canyon down again etc. until I actually locate the EXACT spot where Indulgence is secreted. Just a thought. I need to put BotG again to see if this last “Very Small Area Visual Solve” is necessary. Oh the pondering – Can’t wait to learn what I need to learn – JDA

    • Seeker, I don’t get to read too many posts here anymore, but this one caught my eye. I think you’ve hit upon some very important concepts.

      Why can the LGFI get no closer than the first two clues? The answer is pretty much outlined in your text, IMO. However, I believe the mistake some people make when approaching the poem from this angle is to think that WWWH also has to be their personal start point. I really don’t think it’s possible to find the essential WWWH without working solidly and determinedly towards it over a number of BOTG expeditions. Why? Because it’s not an obvious “warm water” place like a hot spring, plus you need to make the discoveries that gradually attune your thinking in the right direction. Yes, WWWH is the first clue, but it’s highly improbable that it will be where you start your own personal Chase. In the same vein, I don’t believe hoB is what a lot of people think it is, but is a “notion” closely intertwined with WWWH.

      For a long time I believed that the clues were spread over a wide geographic area. You postulated the idea that they might be fairly tightly defined. In the end we might both be partially correct. I am now convinced that the clues that Forrest followed are all within his very special spot, but that our trajectory is likely to encompass a significant portion of the total search area. In addition, the reason that he could follow them before the poem was complete(d) was that there are only a few physical movements required, even though the entire poem is necessary for us to determine where those movements take/took place.

      • vox…nice to see you post!
        Your wwwh halt paragraph is in strong opposition to Fenn’s 2014 answer to one of a few questions from Jenny.
        “The most common mistake I see searchers make is that they underestimate the importance of the first clue. If you don’t have that one nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta. f”

        • Thanks ken!

          Funnily enough, I see no discrepancy between what I hypothesized and what FF said in that quote. You have to nail down WWWH. But what are you going to do to achieve that? Don’t forget that Fenn also said that he expected it would be necessary to make multiple BOTG trips before you could hope to find the treasure. IMO, we need to think, experiment, and think some more.

          • Incidentally, I think the Canasta reference is a hint as to what to do as part of your thought process!

          • also from *THE LURE 2017*
            “If you don’t know where the first clue is you might as well stay home because you’re not going to find the treasure chest.”
            Fenn has indicated getting out there is tantamount to finding the treasure. That is logical…you can’t win if you don’t play kind of thinking. At the same time I believe that these quoted comments indicate that the first clue can be/must be figured out beforehand or the trip is just a futile attempt search-wise.

          • I agree with a lot of what you have been hinting at, and would add that, IMO, there are progressive answers to some of Seeker’s questions “hidden” in the logical solve of TLGFI ATF.

            My only hangup, really, is the multiple BOTG idea, but you attribute that to FF more than your own belief, seemingly in favor of more thinking, experimenting, and more thinking before making the necessary BOTG trip to collect Indulgence?

    • Seeker, Do you think we have to ‘make the lines cross’ on a map or in the field?

      • OS2,

        I kinda think both… however, I’m not sure if we can do it all on a map or GE. I have a few thought on how the idea of ‘make the lines cross’ was possibly meant.
        One idea is a searcher can view the clues at a very precise point near or at WWWsH.

        For example; put a dot on a piece of paper. then randomly place at least 3 more dots [other clues] anywhere on the paper and draw lines to the first dot [ representing WWsH]. The line cross at the place one need to be to view the clues from.

        The other idea is a triangulation of 3 point using three possible clue reference, WWsH, hoB, HLnWH. then draw a line to hob and from hoB to HLnWH and then back to WWsH. A triangle is formed.
        Take each line and measure it by 1/2 and draw a line to each 1/2 sections… and an X appears. X marks the spot . the spot is where the blaze should be.

        In theory
        Each means anyone’s attempts to draw lines, the lines should be different in distance [depending on which clue references used and distances … one could be 100 ft another a mile and the third 1200ft
        100 ft is 1/2 by 50, a mile is 1/2 by 2910 and 1200 1/2 by 600. So you run the line from the 1/2 points and cross then within the triangle.. your X where the line meet.
        My point is; we may need to stay at WWsH to view the other clues, in a spot that we can see all of them coming back to meet the first clue. IMO that is the spot the chest and or blaze is located or from that spot the chest can be seen at its hide… the blaze might point to the chest 12 ft away.
        No stomping point to point…let the clued draw to you.

        Tarry Scant is a triangular math-equation to find a spot with in a larger location… the line cross with in that area. IMO the only movement of the searcher is lining up those lines using correct reference.. you need to on site for this to happen.
        It could be done on 2 D map, but what if a hill gets in the way? In the end we should “know” the place for the first time.

        To answer your question… both, but on the ground, it can throw a horseshoe in the mix, if a clue can’t be observe.

        What say you?

        • Seeker, I think we first need to figure out what is meant by ‘lines’….maybe even like you’re oft suggested ‘line of thinking so to speak’. I kinda think it’s a kinda a double entendre, standard lines (tracks) + some other kind. nothing Fenn says has one meaning, especially if he has repeated it to catch your attention.

          • OS2, You are absolutely, positively proven true, factual and certainly correct…IMHO.

          • I complete agree. Lines may not mean what people commonly expect, although they could reveal literal lines on a map or on a landscape. And I think these lines may tie in with Forrest feeling like an architect, and with his comment about some searchers being “… in tight focus with a word that is key.” Possible incidental connection with A Pope as well. Don’t want to reveal too much here, but if it leads me to the chest, or if I abandon it for a more promising solve, I’ll share the theory.

            I find myself hoping my theory is right; it’s like something right out of a Dan Brown novel, but with fewer priests and more wilderness. 😀

            But I digress. My point is is to concur with you that (IMO) you have to really understand the words Forrest uses and look for meanings that are unorthodox but that make sense in the context of the poem. After all, Forrest is not an orthodox thinker.

            Also, don’t be afraid to “bend” the words a little if you need to … just don’t mess with his poem. 🙂

        • (Since y’all asked,) I say your instructions are pretty hard to
          understand/follow, in my opinion. But thank y’all for posting.

    • “I could have written the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t.” f
      MW – 14 October 2016

      ” . . . remember, if you follow yourself around a circle sooner or later you’ll be behind yourself.” f
      Forrest Gets Mail – 2 October 2012

      • oops – cut-n-paste failure on the second one. add:

        “What difference does it make which one came first, the book or the hiding? . . . . remember, if you follow yourself around a circle sooner or later you’ll be behind yourself.” f
        Forrest Gets Mail – 2 October 2012

        • jake… IMO he had to verify the route prior to publishing (not composing) the poem. Had to certify that the clue points were as he remembered them, particularly the blaze. I kinda think the blaze in the poem was actually a 2nd choice he chose after he physically reviewed the route & planted the TC. The book seems to me to suggest an ambivalence about the blaze. Because the route was difficult, or it was difficult for him to explain his absence to Peggy, he took the treasure with him when he verified the route. Then when finishing the poem, and embellishing the memoirs, he added the hints. All, IMO.

        • What I’m saying is, I think FF had a blaze he used to find his secret place, but it may be to subtle or complex for the Chasers, and he had to use a different one for them (maybe one he embellished himself) .

          • I’m with “what difference does it make which one came first” – I don’t see any nutritional value lurking in there.

            Let’s say that your speculations (or anyone else’s above) are 100% correct. What possible impact would that info have on your (or anyone else’s) approach to the search?

            I mean, if you end up following yourself, you’re also leading yourself too, right?

            In other words, it makes no useful difference at all which came first, the hiding or the poem. We’re never gonna squeeze any milk out of that stone.

            JAKe

          • OK, got it. Fenn’s ‘How-he-donei-it’ is not relevant to the Chaser. Sometimes I am really dense. Thx.

          • Do you think that FF, by his actions, caused something to be physically “installed” or “put in place” that would effectively function as the blaze (of the poem), even though
            the poem’s blaze — as originally planned — functions well
            as the blaze?

          • I don’t think that the “original” blaze is too subtle or complex for all the searchers. But the thought of that
            possible scenario might explain the (shall we say) “addition” of another “blaze”, of which I highly disapprove, based on the manner in which the thing was “added”.

            All part of my opinion.

          • Tall Andrew, Please explain why you think the possibility of Fenn’s personal blaze being too subtle or too complex is wrong? …….

            Suppose Fenn’s personal blaze, the one he remembers when he thinks about his special place, is just a small sandy spot on the shore where he landed a big trout with his special fly, and a small bear emerged from the wood, grabbed the fish and run off as Forrest slipped in the water and lost a shoe. ….. Something very ordinary but way to difficult to describe in a short poem. So for the poem, he selected a big standout rock 15’ down stream and tarred a smile onto it. Viola, a good blaze for the poem.

        • I just wanted to drop in this weekend and thank all the men and women that have served our country our will serve in the future ty Sir Fenn. I feel like the sleeping Indian waiting to wake up and ride into the clouds be safe out there my friends.

          • Nice thought Jeff – where you gonna get the horse, I think he wandered off while you were sleeping.

      • JAK,

        I have my thought on those ATFs, I wondering how you see them.

        The first; simple tells me he could have wrote the poem at any time after being in the place he calls special to him.. be it as a kid, teen, adult. The poem are thing/places he decided to use to get another to the place. The question I pose is, do we leave the place stomping clues or see / observe them from a single spot within his special place.
        The second one; Does seem relative to my post… my ideas don’t circle anywhere. But has the Elliot quote explains, it’s knowing something later on that make the starting point more important than ‘just’ a place to start.

        Fenn stated he knew all along where he want to hide the chest, but he wasn’t any more specific to where that “spot” was… Only to say the “place” is special to him… I hardly doubt he was talking about a 10″ sq. piece of land and more to the idea of the entire solve.

      • How are you so certain, Ethical Dilemma?
        I also read that you wanted to take Seeker to the spot too..
        If you know for certain where it is why don’t you retrieve it?

        • Eaglesabound,

          I would concede that is impossible to be certain, until the new owner is well down a public road with the chest and no one is following.

          Yet, to reach the point that ALL (9) clues fall into place and each verifies the other, that every verifiable hint/admission from ff and several other potential hints ALL apply without forcing, is what I am feeling for the very 1st time in (4) years of research and BOTG adventures.

          To know of this brilliant community of entrepreneurs, deep thinkers, associated professionals, freedom lovers and sharing compassionate souls, yet none have expressed WWWH as I see it (so far as I can tell). There are hundreds of great people deserving of the solution and the ultimate prize. No doubt about that.

          Yes, Seeker, IMO is no more deserving than any of those listed above, yet I have detected a – life fulfilling event for him – once he would finally experience a correct solve. That would make me really happy to witness. It is as simple as that.

          • Good luck then ED, but let me say that you are not alone in the feeling that your solve is the absolute correct one..
            May I ask what state you believe the treasure lies in?

          • Please forgive me for doubting. I don’t believe/understand
            that hundreds of people “deserve the solution and the
            ultimate prize”. FF has said that the finder “will have earned it” . . . As always, IMO.

      • Another contradiction. FF has said it took him 15 years to write that poem.

        Not a contradiction if he meant, “finished the poem” or “the final draft” or “put it down on paper.”

        Not a contradiction if he hid it years before we think he did. Only people saw the chest in his home in 2009.

        Just goes to show that when FF says something, he is not necessarily saying all of the something, just bits of it. He is a magician who has us looking at his right hand while his left hand is off doing something else.

        TH

        • T Hunter;

          Beauty is in the eye of the beholder.

          Truth is in the ear of the listener or reader.

          When I say that I spent 20 years in the Marine Corps – Is that a true statement or not? Of those twenty years I was on leave about 30 days out of every year – So twenty months of my 20 years was spent away from the Marine Corps. Did I lie? Depends on how you look at it. I actually spent 19 years, 8 months and 23 days in the Marine Corps. For retirement purposes, anything over 19 and 1/2 years is the same as twenty. I say I spent 20 years – Is that a lie? Yes and no.

          Forrest spent ABOUT 15 years (off and on) writing the book. – over a period of about twenty years (or so) Why must he be EXACT about how long it took? What difference does it make? None that I know of. Why do we hold Forrest up to a standard that few of us can measure up to?

          Do you tell 100% of the truth 100% of the time? If you do, you are an exceptional person. Almost none of us can live up to that standard – Just sayin’ – JDA

          • Hello JD,

            I write as a warning for others. I have seen others hold up Mr. Fenn’s words as gospel, and it seems that they build entire solutions on words that are subject to interpretation. (Not to mention, they take his words out of context.) I point out that sometimes his words contradict, if taken at face value.

            You mention it took him 15 years to write the book. I recently read where he said that he wrote the book in about six weeks:

            “The bulk of the book was written in six weeks and phrases that I had never thought of before, suddenly appeared on my computer screen. I said in the forward that the book wrote itself. ” https://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-author-of-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

            As for what came first, the hiding or the poem – I don’t care. Makes no difference to me in building a solve.

            IMHO, the best approach to finding the treasure chest is not to base a solution upon any of the AFTS. The methodology was provided to us on the day that TTOTC was published.

            TH

          • T Hunter;

            This is from https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ti2peP8jWYM&feature=youtu.be
            (may not be available)

            “Let me put this in perspective. So many people have decided they are going to take a picnic lunch out on a Sunday and look for the treasure, or something to do over spring break. I’m looking at 100 years down the road, 1,000 years, maybe 10,000 years down the road. It took me 15 years to write the poem. I changed it so many times that I’ve said before I didn’t write the poem. it, it, it was written by an architect. Each word is deliberate (31:45) (10/22/13 – Collected Works bookstore event.)

            JDA

    • Hi Seeker,

      “What did Fenn need to do to complete the poem?”

      Each line of the poem has an anagram that relates to a place on the trail from wwwh to the blaze, IMO.

      Forrest could have driven directly to the parking lot nearest to the blaze but he went out of his way to look for things to include in his poem of anagrams. Specifically for stanzas 4 and 5 I think.

        • Hi JDA,

          I really want to share them of course. Imagine creating an art project that you can’t show to anybody.

  44. My wife said “Let’s just do something absolutely crazy in the spur of the moment”.

    So we flew out last night. And here we are in Indiana looking for Indulgence. No luck yet, but we’ve got the whole weekend.

    • On my first botg as well. Palm Beach, FL what are my chances compared to last 9 years?

    • If you’re near Goshen, Indiana and interested in motorcycles, you might want to
      take a look at Janus Motorcycles (they have a website).

      Oh, I should say something about Fenn’s Treasure Hunt.

      Rumors seem to indicate that FF thinks the TC will soon be found. I don’t think we should underestimate him regarding his ability to outfox most people. Even if the poem has/had been correctly solved by a searcher, that searcher may, for any of (or several) various reasons never search thoroughly the place to which the poem leads. And I believe FF knows all this. The searcher that
      has the correct solve in mind may end up shot by a gang of 8 (love that number) jealous husbands . . . or something like that. Usually I have to tell
      about 8 jokes in order to get one laugh. All IMO.

      • I’d like to know if fenn could eliminate 3 states without changing the clues references… not to say the chest is only in one of the states, but to say no clues are from a different state oit of the four remaining states.

        • Seeker, I would like to take you to the spot! You deserve a successful BOTG observation after all the energy you have devoted to this puzzle.

        • Seeker, eliminating 3 states without changing the clues references would be an incorrect perhaps impossible approach IMO, because of the ff statements made over many years on ATF’s like (paraphrase) there are many places WWWH and most of them are north of Santa Fe, also ff has never stated that all the clues are on the map in TFTW, he just states (par) that the TC is. elimination of states might not be helpful because in some frame of reference even the stars are given as a navigational reference point.

          The trick IMO is to understand the hunt as not only a geographical map to the TC but on another annotation, denotation see with our imaginations the meaning in another dimension, one of the past, his memoirs, and the guidance for a real solve which cannot be seen on a google earth map for it’s final resting place, that is our focus and our quest.

          My feelings have always been to understand the man, his history and what is important to Forrest that will solve the puzzle and I feel someone is getting very close, closer than 500′ but the trees keep giving then a forrest for the tree problem that is not correctly solved…..yet. We shall see at S 019 why else is there the word SO in the first of the last 2 stanzas, it is a backward way to see the poem, but it might just work…

          TT

          • TT,

            Your observation regarding “SO…” is deserving of recognition. IMHO.

      • Maybe the person who solved it isn’t in it for the money, maybe they just want the chase to end before someone else dies looking for it, maybe the joke isn’t that funny.
        All IMO

        • New Guy;

          You say, “Maybe the person who solved it …” Who has said that it has been solved??? Just askin’ JDA

          • I was replying to tall Andrews post above. I believe it’s been solved as well. Time will tell, maybe today, maybe tomorrow, but should be soon. All imo

  45. Hi All
    I have a question for anyone who can answer on Rainy Night Blessing .
    I know it is in the OUAW book but is their a scrapbook to ,if so what #
    is it? Thanks Clint

  46. @Bowmarc,

    With hindsight, the reason I think it’s important for people like me to go out searching multiple times is to hone the thought process. Without the understanding that comes from being there and witnessing some of the marvels, and then thinking about how to use that to develop my solution further, it would be very unlikely I’d ever be able to find the TC – I’m just not smart enough to figure it all out from home.

    ken’s right, IMO, that you have to figure out WWWH before you can find the TC, but I’m now firmly of the opinion that it will take a great deal of refinement of thought to achieve that. People have chosen to search at or near hundreds, maybe thousands, of different WWWH with no success. Why? IMO, it’s because the right WWWH will only reveal itself after much effort, and is not a place that can be pinpointed like a hot spring, a river confluence, or the CD. How you put in that effort is up to each individual searcher. For me, I needed empirical evidence from BOTG, as well as deep thought.

    I think Fenn said something like you won’t know you have the right WWWH until you find the TC. In one sense that’s pretty obvious, but thinking about it a little more, it sounds like there’s something more to WWWH than just selecting the correct one from a list of all the likely candidates.

    So, in practice, if you’re going to use BOTG as your primary research tool, rather than simply armchair (rocking chair?) analysis, you still need a place to start. I chose a place many miles distant from where I ended up, but stuck with it until it revealed what I needed to know. I don’t know if this is true, but I think it might be possible to choose any one of a number of starting points and still reach the same final spot. In other words, what I originally thought was WWWH was simply a place to start. Years of work (both on the ground and in the chair) led me eventually to a very different WWWH – and not one I could have found via a Benchmark or GE map search.

    I hope this makes sense.

    • It’s been making sense for years, even before your above posting about it. IMO.

    • @ voxpops = It does make sense, and thanks for taking the time to clarify.

      I have 0% BOTG experience and 250% armchair experience…LOL.

      I do wonder about BOTG experiences helping to evolve my logically imaginative solve process(es), but I live too far away from the defined search area to make that viable without a certain level of confidence beforehand. If Seeker is right, and one needs to be in an exact spot, perhaps on a very specific day, with the sun at a certain angle, and the planets in a particular alignment, to see how all the poem’s clues converge to reveal Indulgence, I’m doomed…LOL. (I know Seeker did not say all those things, at least not in that particular order…LOL)

      WWWH (whatever that turns out to be) and Indulgence are connected to a degree that makes the above referenced ATF’s and the TS Eliot quote shake hands. Having a logically imaginative solve process that makes them do such has not yet revealed a WWWH spot to me, just a conceptualization of same, but as I apply my formula to the rest of the poem I am hopeful that the other clues meld together to help me nail it down.

      Parts of that last statement may sound contrary to other assorted ATF’s, but within my current solve process things balance/make sense from my logically imaginative perspective.

      • Bowmarc, ~ ‘If Seeker is right, and one needs to be in an exact spot, perhaps on a very specific day, with the sun at a certain angle, and the planets in a particular alignment, to see how all the poem’s clues converge to reveal Indulgence, I’m doomed…LOL. (I know Seeker did not say all those things, at least not in that particular order…LOL)’

        Ha! you missed a few things, but… The whole point though, is about, the idea this can be done [doing the solve correctly] on any day of the 365 days on a calendar. Can it?
        I mean, fenn says every year to pack it in when winter sets in. Is that *only* for safety or is there a reason? Does he even try to narrow it down more?
        If we don’t even think about a reason that it might be only possible to *actually follow the clues as intended* we might not understand how it could truly unfold.

        Think about how no one has basically given the correct order of clues after the first two. I doubt they all made the same wrong turn… more than likely, just didn’t understand what is being said in the poem. Yet some may have mentioned the first for clues correct.. lol 1/2 of the poem and yet still no discovery? Seems odd, doen’t it.

        Sure we have the comment; IF you “know” where the chest is you can probably retrieve it in any weather.. but can we “know” without being on site to “observe” where it is or how it’s discovered?

        LOL we are in the hopes of finding 22 troy lbs of gold and many 100’s of precious stones etc. for our effort, right? And folks have been in the correct area, some as close as 200′ from the hide [ and presumably the blaze, somewhere are there ]. He’s not going to make this easy to figure out when the prize is that large and grows [in-value] as time moves on.

        This leads me to consider that most of the poem is not about 9 *places* for each clue [ I doubt every “clue” is a place… a clue is designed to get you closer, right? ], as much as, information on how to go about figuring out what to do, see, react on site.
        IF correct, a specific time of year to accomplish this is not far fetch to the idea of; making it difficult to find, but not impossible. Or the idea; walking there with a grin on your face… is this part of the “planning” side of the challenge?

        IMO, just decipher clue’s reference as a *place* is not all we need to figure out…. something needs “planning and observing” during a search. I doubt that is looking out a car window and packing extra sock.

        • @ Seeker…That’s my understanding—clues get you closer to the treasure and hints help you with the clues (and before someone posts it, yes, I know there is an ATF by FF that states this—my point is simply that I believe in the statement as is with no skulduggery afoot).

          I agree—just because there are 9 clues does not mean that each of the nine has to be a separate place/thing. It certainly makes sense that you could go with confidence if the clues referenced a place/thing more than once thereby reinforcing one’s belief in their choice(s) for their pathway to the treasure. We are all trying to solve for “X”, but whose to say that our ingredient “Y” isn’t a poetic secondary description of “X” that provides us with more confidence that we are on the right track because we have just reinforced our belief in “X” by making that connection?

          • Bowmarc,

            How can we put an X on a map if we must follow the clues by solving it on site? {what exactly is the X for?}
            We have fenn saying a physical present is needed to ‘solve’ / finish the poem’s [clues] challenge.
            What is the X supposed to represent -?- It seemingly can’t be the blaze or the hidey spot. A searcher needs finding one, the other need to be discovered from that findings.

            IF we take into consideration many ATF’s we have;
            Need the first clue or we have ‘nothing.’
            Looking for later clues won’t seem to work.
            Can’t start in the middle of the poem [apparently without nailing WWsH].
            Marry the clues to A Place on a map. [which might be more about all the clues than individual clues].
            The first few clues can get one on site… after that it seems the later clues need to be seen / utilize on ground level.. [for lack of a better term]
            Little Indy’s Q&A. Can not get closer than the first two clues. [ did she have all the lines crossed for that?]
            Craig’s Q&A – need to think, analyze, “plan and Observe” Unless our desire is to keep it simple. { what planning, what needs observing?}
            fenn following his own created clues [9 clues], because there is no other way to *his knowledge.* Told us it was one of the few things he actually “planned” out. So apparently He had to follow a/the “plan” as well… right? Even needed to observe something… right?

            Can we really know of the last place to put an X at it, beforehand?
            Or does the X idea give us the “location” of the clue to work through on site? … call it an X Y or Z… it can’t represent the finish line.

            The path will not be direct for those who have no certainty of the location beforehand… what does “location” represent?
            IMO, and again, it can’t be the blaze or the hide… logically it should be the ‘location’ of where we need to hunt… IF so… then the X is where it all takes place to solve the clues – complete- a full solve… before the [challenge] poem can be “Completed.”

            The question I’m dealing with is;
            Is WWsH the very *first thing* we need to know of… or… simply first clue of the correct path that get us to the blaze/hide?
            IMO… [ and ken is going to climb the walls.. lol ] The riddle is figuring out the location we need to be at, to find/complete the clues.
            I just don’t know why that is important yet… but folks who have been on site didn’t seem to know they had clues correct… for some reason.

            Now a question… didn’t fenn say something about the first clue is not a metaphor or metaphors will not help with the clues? I’m not going to track it down, but you may want to if you’re using metaphors… just to double check. But don’t quote me, I could have misunderstood a comment, or a blogger could have stated it… But I would check it out if I was using this idea.

          • When talking about the treasure actually being real or the whole thing being about finding the treasures in life…Fenn said , *Forget the metaphors. The treasure is real…*
            This was in the EEDS interview.

          • Man o man… I roasted up some nice looking Tomahawks along with roasted corn, taters, onions and peppers out in the Smoke Shack. The process always gives me plenty of *Chase time* and provides a great opportunity to just hang back and chill out. Nobody around but me and the dogs.
            As far as *X’s* and *lines crossing*… I think when the clues are deciphered this will probably make some sort of sense versus using those terms as tools to decipher. Not mentioned for some time is the factoid that there is no *X* in the poem. Is that by design or just coincidence?
            Just because I bandy about *places* in the clues doesn’t mean that I believe there are 9 places. Because folks have failed to recognize what is supposed to be/happen *where* the first two clues are I tend to leave that open and try to see it as a problem that may be interpretive in a different or peculiar fashion. I think there is a *where* involved…but perhaps it isn’t [what] is commonly thought.
            The same can be said about anything after that first two clues dilemma…keeping in mind the backward bicycle idea. Further, who’s to say up is up and down is down in this crazy poem…it could all be in a different perspective depending on the initial approach.
            Another thought while kicking back in the grilling lounge was about the longevity of the Chase and Fenn’s initial ideas and later comments. A hundred years, maybe a thousand, even ten thousand. Those sound surreal while realizing the profound reality of mortality and that the Chase has been chugging along for 9 years or so. At any rate…the passage of time and the impact on the treasure and accessibility gives some insight on what may or may not be a good *hide* area.
            Read the poem as if it were a map and also like you were putting an X on a map. huh…

          • ken, I think the poem’s more of a map than most people realize. It certainly woke me out of my conceited daydreaming one day.

          • @Seeker – “X” in my comment was meant to stand in for the spot where a searcher thinks Indulgence is secreted, not placing an “X” on a map. As an example, some people think the Blaze is where Indulgence is at, so “X” would be the blaze for them, and I was saying that ingredient “Y” (One of the other 8 clues) may also be a reference to the Blaze rather than a separate and distinct clue in and of itself. If such were the only example of a repeated clue, then there would only be 8 criteria in the solve process since 2 of the 9 clues reference the same thing.

            To further clarify/expand upon my initial comment a bit, if “X = X” and we come to understand that “Y = X” as well, we have just isolated 2 clues that point to the same geographic spot and such would seemingly bolster one’s confidence in their solve because they would now have 2 clues pointing to their ideal hidey spot for Indulgence.

            We know there are 9 clues, but nothing to my recollection has been written/said by FF to indicate that more than one clue can’t reference the same geographical spot.

            If the poem is crafted with more than one clue pointing to the same geographic spot, and let’s just say for examples sake that there are only 3 geographic spots we need to solve for, untangling the spider’s web someone else mentioned in this thread becomes linking the clues to the correct geographic spot. Theoretically, then, to carry on the example only, if clues 1, 2, and 6, point to GS1 (Geographic Spot 1), clues 4, 5, and 9 point to GS2, and the remaining clues of 3, 7, and 8 point to GS3, but searchers are reading all 9 clues as separate and distinct geographic spots 1 thru 9, the solve for the poem will be two entirely different things.

            Not surprisingly, how many posted solves have we read about that utilize the 1 – 9 approach as opposed to any that indicate that some of the clues are repeats of a previously mentioned clue?

            Food for thought.

          • Bowmark;

            I have to give you points for originality. I can not say that I agree with you, but it certainly is “Out of the box” thinking – But didn’t Forrest say to get back in the box? 🙂 JDA

          • @JDA – He sure did, and people may be getting out of the box because they fail to see that while there are 9 clues, some of them may “repeat” as I describe above—not recognizing this means that those who stomp out 9 separate and distinct clues are the ones who have left the box the first time they erroneously associate a repeated clue to someplace else.

          • Bowmarc,

            Yep, I think we all have fallen for the idea 9 equates 9 places at one time or another.
            But lets take it a bit further… Lets say stanza 3 is all of one place [ a description of one place ]. Just because it’s one place doesn’t mean there are not ‘individual places’ at work. However, the idea could be that, the deciphering of stanza 3 clues all indicate the same thing or a place.
            Hence, stanza [3] can hold 2 or 4 or 6 clues being places of their own.

            A simple example is; You have a few road in the area of your home and property. The idea is to locate the one road that your home can be seen. The clues tell of; a pool, trees, a Brown dog house, bushes, a driveway, a sidewalk, a deck or porch, an outbuilding… But we need the correct road [out of the many] at the right angle to see all those clue’s reference… by figuring that out, we have discovers the blaze, line of thinking. Which is bordering you property. Or where all the clues are located and seen from.

            The question is; how do we find the location to being with-?- when our search area is the size of the US RM’s? LOL or even in just a single state.

            It really depends on how any individual reader compiles the information. If one is in full stomping mode method, they tend to expand 9 clues to 9 places they need to personally go. This almost always ends up with miles of hiking point to point, sometimes driving / boating [alternative transportation] clue to clue. And guess at what/where WWsH could be and where.

            I think the poem’s solution is much more condense… yet there might be a hike to get to the location of the clues from where we can park, or even dropped off at.
            Still keeping in mind; fenn at age almost 80, followed is own clues, on the same route in and out, walked less than a few miles [total of two trip imo], from the car to the hide.
            [ I’ll say ~ from car – to all the clues location ]

            In any scenario we can come up with, I a believer the first thing we need to do is figure out where the ‘clues’ are “located” first and foremost…. then the 9 clues kick in at this point, starting with, and at, clue 1. I don’t see any-other way to find clue 1, out of the many N of SF, without “certainty of the location” beforehand… fenn warned us about that.

      • Seeker, maybe this is the quote you’re remembering:

        “Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking. f”

        You can read that a number of ways, but it COULD imply that WWWH is in fact a metaphor. In terms of geographical distance, I’d say you might be more than 90% of the way there.

        Maybe we all worry too much about trying to fathom every meaning. Perhaps it’s just not possible and you have to go with the flow, and let the final location dot the i’s and cross the t’s. That could be part of why it’s necessary to conclude the solve on-site.

        I really don’t think it’s realistic to be able to find the correct WWWH until you’ve progressed a good deal of the way, both geographically and metaphorically – even if that sounds counterintuitive. IMO, it’s not an obvious location and requires considerable understanding of how FF plots over-ground movement. But that also means searchers have to start somewhere. If you don’t begin, I don’t think you can find WWWH. And I don’t think it’s wise to forget either the pilot aspect or FF’s seeming love of numbers (just consider how many appear in SBs etc).

        There is a large learning aspect involved, IMO, and practice makes perfect (or at least better!). If you’re right about the clues being within a very small area, how will a searcher gain the necessary practice without actually joining the Chase and using the insight gained through BOTG to craft a solution. You might have to break a few pots before you create the perfect vase.

        • Vox,
          Above you stated that the poem is more of a map than people realize and some time ago i inquired if you found infinity in poem as a map. However, the following is a completely different thought. In understanding the poem as a map or its conversion into a map and then marrying it to the geographical location that it depicts, one could potentially look for the treasure chest at any of four locations. These being where: treasures bold, chest, trove, and gold appear in the poem.
          I think the ff statement that he hid the treasure chest before the poem was complete means that it may be hidden at one of the other three locations or even elsewhere.
          Good luck and dont leave the poem. Except of course where and when the last clue prompts you to. The physical presence clue.
          Yes, the geographical locations that the poem as a map and the oldrich farsky painting match are in very close proximity to eachother and both are at the hoB.
          Perhaps?

          • Sorry, BadgeR, I remember thinking about your infinity question and then forgot to reply. It’s a strange one, because I have found “infinity” (WWWH) but indirectly, rather than from the map in the poem.

            For me, in the final stages, WWWH, hoB, the blaze and the final spot (the second X) come together at one geographical location. Previously, their “shadow” counterparts led me to this area. Yes, there are separate spots (not very far from each other) that need to be accessed in the correct order, but the final X is where you’re heading. As to the differences between treasures, chest, trove, and gold, for me these relate to different aspects of what we’re searching for. Part of our prize is what we uncover within ourselves, part is the revelation that awaits, and part is the physical manifestation of success. However, within the poem, each of these plays a role in leading us to the right place, IMO.

            But when you go in there (and before), you need to remember Scrapbook 201 and be prepared to face your fears.

            As for the Farsky painting, that hasn’t featured in my search, but there is something special and unique to find where you put in, IMO.

        • Other ththan where gold appears at the end of the poem. This ff statement came directly after i realized poem as a map and commented on the possible poem locations.
          But i know that is purely coincidence as is black dog my search partner being black race pony and the time i had to use and inverted golf club from the thrift store as my walking stick, mashie nibick or something.
          As glen david wilson often said, no matter how connected some things seem there is pure coincidence.

  47. You know, I don’t think that is necessarily contrary. Certainly, you can’t start off looking for the blaze or even hoB, as those things are not discoverable in isolation, but to begin to understand the poem in its entirety, and how its parts interrelate, is critical, IMO.

    Given my distance from the search area, I consider myself lucky to have had the luxury of a number of BOTG sorties. They have taught me much – not least about myself. The reason I think it’s more difficult to do it from home is the lack of feedback. Discovery, evaluation and correction have been helpful for me. Maps and GE on their own would struggle to provide that.

    That said, I do think there are plenty of hints out there as to the general area to be looking, and someone with a very methodical approach alongside a healthy imagination could perhaps work out the final location from home. I think the place may have a profound impact on whomever finds it. The spot I found struck the fear of God into me at the time, and prevented me making further progress for months – but I’m weird!

    Someone here once accused me of being too target fixated. I think that’s an ironic statement coming from any long-term searcher, but maybe it has some validity. I think FF summed it up best when he quoted Richard Monckton Milnes that the virtue is in the struggle not the prize. In the end I don’t think it matters which method you adopt to find the treasure, it’s the journey that counts.

    • Well said Voxpox – “It’s the journey that counts.” – Have a great day – JDA

    • Vox ~ ‘You know, I don’t think that is necessarily contrary. Certainly, you can’t start off looking for the blaze or even hoB, as those things are not discoverable in isolation…’

      I think this is a good assumption. It kinda equates to fenn’s answer about being about to decipher clues from home; All of them, in theory, but not in practice.
      We have been told many times, not just to analyze, thing of the poem’s clues.. but to “Plan and Observe”.. that is difficult to do [observe] from home.

      • *plan*; strategy, set of intended actions, prospective prior to action
        *observe*; discover, perceive, circumstances of action, effects of action
        vox… I needed to clarify that I do agree that it is possible that the learning curve may evolve from more than one botg. My above comments are more along the lines that it is *possible* to decipher a clue beforehand vs that being completely impossible or taboo. Some of my better lessons in life have come from a long list of prior attempts…such is life. I have come to believe though, there is a distinct possibility that this whole thing could fall in place for someone and puts them(knowingly) within several steps of the prize. Call me foolish or wishful…but I do suspect this.

        • I quite agree Ken. I too think that “this whole thing could fall in place for someone and puts them(knowingly) within several steps of the prize.” I think that it is just a matter of time – JDA

      • Seeker,

        You said, “… that is difficult to do [observe] from home.”

        That is exactly why I made you an offer to step through the clues, see the “spot” in an undisturbed state and watch the sun shine on the chest for the first time in years.

        I am willing to be patient with you and meet your personal needs.

        How/when can we do that???

        • When wouldn’t be difficult to plan… how, well, all I would require is a steak dinner.

          • Great. Could Dal put us in touch with each other or what would you suggest?

  48. I think you’re right, Seeker, but I don’t want to be too prescriptive. Someone with tremendous insight might just be able to square the circle without going BOTG, but I know I couldn’t do that.

    Oddly, a few years ago I think I had a concept plotted out from GE that might have yielded results if I’d not veered off into the weeds. It took me a couple of years of digging to get myself back on the track I’d started following previously. However, in the meantime, all that trudging across the wilderness produced what I would call “realizations” that fed into my personal trajectory. Fenn once spoke about a searcher (or searchers) not having given him the clue solutions in the right order. That’s an odd notion, but I think it makes sense. I believe that even though the path may be straight forward, the poem itself has to be untangled – and that’s an immense job; you need “realizations” to help straighten things out.

    • Broadly speaking, perhaps, combing through something as complex as what the solve is might help to untangle an important thing, I have learned from a series of realizations. I have had various positions on this, and firmly believe that this post is part of my opinion.

  49. Seeker,
    IMO You are correct about time of day & the correct season to search. I have said many times I believe Mr. Fenn describes what he left for us to find, his art. I sat there last year and watched as the sun slowly cast a shadow over the masterpiece & it slowly faded into the mountainside. I knew what I was looking for and where it was but I still walked by it the first time. Stay focused!
    -B

  50. @Seeker,

    A question about when we are at the correct wwwh and your theory of viewing later clues from wwwh. Which would help pinpoint the tc or the blaze nearby wwwh.

    How would we know where to stand at wwwh? That’s assuming wwwh isn’t anywhere near to being a 24” square location or so. Meaning…what happens if the correct wwwh stretches for hundreds of feet or more. How do we know what part of wwwh to stand at to take our visual observation of the latter clues?

    • FD;

      I am not Seeker, but let me give it a stab. If you understand what “Halt” is, you will understand where to stand to see the other elements in the poem.
      As Forrest and Seeker say, “You have to have clue #1 nailed down.” Or words to that effect. If you get it nailed down, you know what “halt” means, and you know where to stand. That is how I see it anyway – Seeker may see it differently – JDA

      • I like it JDA. For me, I have “halted.” No longer in it for gold. First BOTG was also last. I also believe (IMO) that I have found the end of the poem proper. Also believe (IMO) that one could continue ad infinitum applying lessons of the poem to so many other puzzles. Forrest’s poem is indeed an amazing thing. I’d be using it as a case study in reading comprehension class if I were a teacher of such.

    • FD ~ ‘How would we know where to stand at wwwh?’

      In theory, that’s the challenge. One would need to see the other clue’s references [ all references ] that are not at WWsH.
      IF this is an observational style solve, finding the canyon to look out over shouldn’t be that hard and why searchers indicated the first two clues correctly… they may have even mention seeing what they thought hoB was /is, only to move to it, rather than looking for other places/clues… they went into full stomping mode.
      So, a searcher may need to ‘adjust’ not only their thinking, but their standing-point to be able to see those later clues… while still remaining at WWsH.
      IN ThEoRy, when this is accomplished, one could be standing at the ‘blaze’… this could be why some came within a couple hundred feet from the hide. They may even have walked right by the blaze, not knowing, because they were ‘going’ to the next hopeful clue. So, IMO, a searcher would only know of the blaze by having the clues all ‘line up’ / lines crossed, visually and discovering where that blaze is located ~ at the spot where they see the clues.. “been wise and found” it.

      Now the question is; what do we do with it or how do we utilize it?
      Side note; regardless of the size of WWsH, the other clues need to be followed by seeing them from one specific spot. IMO HLnWH is a secondary clue to what WW’sH refers to, yet it could be 100’s of feet from where a searcher enters the area, and more than likely not on a trail. Stanza three is explaining what we are looking at… No Place for the meek… It’s all “drawing” back towards you, and most likely referring to the ‘canyon’ that we are ‘taking in’ and ‘put in’ below hoB somewhere within or around said canyon.

      I think fenn is simply describing what he sees standing at or near the chest, but definitely at the blaze… in theory. We would need all the clues to be understood and follow [observing] them, to follow them in order.
      Like I said before; it would not surprise me a bit if some have mentioned later clues [ after the first two ] only not the way fenn intended them to be followed. They [searchers] left the poem.

      **Politically correct statement adviser; All the above crap is just a theory.

      • Seeker, what if the first two clues, begin IT and take IT, are talking about the same thing as if clue one and two are one? You don’t begin it where warm water IS but where it ends at a point where IT is and you are to take IT in the canyon.

  51. With the search season ramping up, I think we are all excited. Stay focused and you know what they say about rumors…

    “ Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as if she had laid an asteroid.” -Mark Twain

    Plus, haven’t we all been soooooo close at some point ?
    Happy Hunting All, and stay safe!

  52. Ok, Veronica that credit for a Mark Twain which you quoted “ Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as if she had laid an asteroid.”

    That is a marvelous segue into one of the most important aspects in the relation of time and the poem tense, listen to this quote for the umpteenth time but know it for the first time in a new dimension,“I could have written the poem before I hid the treasure chest, but I didn’t.”

    Why?

    Everyone knows that Forrest took many years and much effort to express exactly, in his words “Felt like an Architect” upon completing the poem, so what that says to me is this:

    I could NOT have finished this poem correctly before I hid that chest, because something was not finished or constructed, or marked properly, something was perhaps missing to finalize the plan for his puzzle/riddle. That thing that was lacking was not how or even where it was going to be hidden, because IMO many years ago he knew where this special place was but something was not finished for the poem to make complete sense, that something was the final clue.

    If I have learned nothing else in the hunt it is the concept of fenn’s timing, After reading the Secrets of San Lazaro (Pueblo) and his viewing some concepts for excavation, one must focus clearly on excavations to understand the last clue, the one he made the poem wait for, I may not stumble on the chest but I can focus on that final spot now, its well like deconstructing, reverse engineering ff’s secret where.

    We shall soon see if I am right. It is close to prime time June 20 2010, it might be a very good day to find something special….

    TT

    TT

    • So Mr Twain, which actually means 2, Twain.. decide which came first the Chicken or the egg? Which camp are we in for WWWH, the hot one or the warm comfortable one? Lets get back in the box, casue sometimes I just wanta cry because I did not see this before.

      TT

      • Tom Terrific –

        “Noise proves nothing. Often a hen who has merely laid an egg cackles as if she had laid an asteroid.” – Mark Twain

        A metaphor for:

        “Don’t make a mountain out of a molehill.” – circa 1660

        Like the one I found at my hidey spot.

        Giggles.

        Speaking of ‘found’, do you think Forrest ‘found’ (as in, ‘foundry’, a double entendre) the blaze, as the two ‘cast’ life-sized bronze Brown trout on that great interpretive sign, on the shore of the Madison River at Baker’S Hole?

        My translation:

        If you’ve been wiSe and ‘found’ the blaze,
        Look quickly down (at the sign image of the scene, and/or upriver/downriver to the ‘put-in’) your quest (across the Bridge of Death or Thor’s Bitfrost Burning Rainbow Bridge or the River Styx) to cease (for Forrest originally to die on the bronze chest or for us to retrieve it).

        All IMO.

    • “After reading the Secrets of San Lazaro (Pueblo) and his viewing some concepts for excavation, one must focus clearly on excavations to understand the last clue …”
      —————————————————-

      TT … In my opinion, a searcher does NOT need to read “The Secrets of San Lazaro … to understand the last clue”, or any other clue for that matter.

      Searchers are constantly referencing sources outside the poem, to justify their belief that they are the lead searcher, the person who is on the verge of finding the chest.

      But their implied “confidence” only tells me that they have given up on the poem and therefore are nowhere near finding the correct location.

      Ken (in Texas)

  53. I’d like to thank f and Mr.D (MikeD) for my experiences this weekend. Through f I was introduced to MikeD (it’s a long story) and that led me to spending the weekend with my Dad and family… (Step-Mother, Babydoll (my wife, Andrea), and HenStep (my son, Stephen). We spent the weekend in beautiful Estes Park, Colorado. MikeD introduced me to Estes Park. We didn’t search for the chest filled with gold, but what we found was memories we created that will last a lifetime. There are places here in Estes Park that searchers can interpret as clues like the Molly B restaurant and the many bear carvings around town. There are even waterfalls near by in the Rocky Mountain National Park. It is such a beautiful place. We will be heading back to New Mexico via a route through Nederland, CO (hello Amy W.) and Leadville, CO.
    I haven’t spent a weekend like this with my Dad in ages. I’m so happy I could cry. Cry, thanks Puddles Pity Party. Anyway, I just wanted to write this thanks to f and MikeD because if it weren’t for them, I wouldn’t be enjoying my time with my family here in Estes Park. These surely are memories to hold.

  54. On October 14th 1066, the invading forces of William, Duke of Normandy, clashed with those of King Harold Godwinson a few miles north of Hastings, in a heavily wooded area close to a marsh. The rest, as they say, is history. If I visit that area today – a peaceful pastoral landscape – why do I not hear the ring of steel upon steel and feel the rush of wind from the flying arrows? What is different? What is this thing called time that appears to stand between me and history?

    Similarly, if I travel from my home in Wales to a spot 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe, can I say that the same person existed in both places? What is this thing called distance that stands between me and my future?

    • Thanks for making us think a bit Vox – Time and distance – each a measure of an unknown – JDA

      • Add direction and you end up with a ray. Am I correct? What constitutes a ray? I will have to conduct some research for an answer.

        • A ray/direction is an interesting addition to the equation. Recently, I was thinking about rays and how they can be bent and focused. Theoretically, if you could use the stars as a giant mirror and you had a telescope of sufficiently huge magnification, you could see into the world’s past. Maybe there are other methods.

    • Vox, ‘…can I say that the same person existed in both places?’

      Not unlike fenn standing at the soldier’s grave, or being in a desert looking at remains of conflicts over periods of time stacked next to each other. Time doesn’t take you back… it only shows of events from past times.
      Geography does the same… A person can’t be in two places at once… the person can only ‘observe’ different time periods in the same place.
      The rest, as they, say is history…

      If I was standing in Wales [at your home, for example] and found your wallet, and you are in NM at the same exact clock time… I’m seeing your past, not your present.

      • Good points, Seeker. Maybe I should have said, “Is the person now standing in the Rockies the same person that previously stood in Wales,” or is a new person born in every passing moment?

  55. Hope everyone has a nice Memorial day. An remember today is about those veterans who didn’t make it back. Those of us who did (or who never actually had to fight) are the lucky ones. IMO

  56. To all who have a memory of serving, even those like myself who were seldom that target for an enemy’s slings and arrows and for you, Mr Vox, whose nation has produced heroes in numbers too numerous to mention here, I too feel some guilt for my friends who did not come home from a dreadful, meaningless war that I served in, but count my lucky stars to be writing this on Memorial Day, 2019, and words that come to mind for my guilt are not those of Flanders Field but important to me for having done my job, however small this last line her says it all and allows me, no forces me to go and decorate a grave at the SF Nat’l cemetary:

    “When I consider how my light is spent
    Ere half my days in this dark world and wide,
    And that one talent which is death to hide
    Lodg’d with me useless, though my soul more bent
    To serve therewith my Maker, and present
    My true account, lest he returning chide;
    “Doth God exact day-labour, light denied?”
    I fondly ask. But Patience to prevent
    That murmur, soon replies: “God doth not need
    Either man’s work or his own gifts; who best
    Bear his mild yoke, they serve him best. His state
    Is kingly. Thousands at his bidding speed
    And post o’er land and ocean without rest:
    They also serve who only stand and wait.”

    Thanks to all who serve, and have served especially the UDT team 21 members to whom I had the pleasure to know intimately. My son flew seal team 6 as a UH 60 pilot, and even if he does not hear it from me now, I am proud of all who stand and wait.

    TT

  57. Ken In TX,

    Up thread you said “What riddle? I don’t think there is one.”

    So for the record this is from On the Road with Charlie – Part One dated 5/8/2017;

    “FENN: Well, it’s hidden in a pretty good place. It’s difficult to find, but it certainly isn’t impossible. But if you’re gonna find the treasure, you’re gonna have to solve the RIDDLE that’s in my poem. The nine clues that are in my poem. Nobody’s gonna happen on that treasure chest.”

    But more importantly. May God bless all those that have served our wonderful country. There is a special place of honor in my heart for those who fought and those who sacrificed their lives protecting me and my family. Thank you so much too Forrest for your service.

    Pinatubocharlie

  58. On this Memorial Day, I think it only fitting and proper that we listen (again) to Forrest’s thoughts regarding war, and those that did not return:

    “In “My War for Me” Forrest talks about a French Soldier’s Grave Marker. Here is a quote from that chapter:

    “If you should ever think of me when I have passed this vale, and wish to please my ghost, forgive a sinner and smile at a homely girl.”

    Those words burned in my brain and I can see them just as clearly now as I did then, when I was so rushed. I took care to replace the stone marker as it had fallen, and smooth the grass to hide it over. The promise that place had made to me had been kept, and mine to it as well.

    How innocent and foolish all of that seemed at the time, and even more so, that a strangely insidious something began to gnaw on me. This could not be the end of it. There was no feeling of closure at all, no sense of completeness. It was disappointing.

    Is it fair that no one recalls where those brave French soldiers fell and are now interred in that remote jungle clearing, hidden from life for a million sunsets? After a violent ending, they have been swallowed up in a serenely beautiful place, and at the same time, hidden by ravages of time and nature. Those who fell there, in that hateful, wasteful, losing war (like the one in which I was involved) are forever forgotten, save by me. It has been fifty-six years since that war, and no one cries anymore. That thought is deeply personal and indelible in me now, forty-two years after I was there.

    My experience beside the waterfall was on December 22,1968

    Let’s take a moment and then salute those that others have forgotten. The families never forget, but others fail to remember – how sad – I salute all who have served – JDA

  59. It is terrible for those that lost their lives in battles where the enemies are known and those enemies that can’t be seen. I was in the same horrific war that Forrest was in and the very same year during our lives.

    War is where darkness prevails, hope at times seems futile, the measurement of any man or woman is seen, darkness is much deeper when a soldier and friend falls.

    The light of the brave and the soldiers is seen even when it is very dark. Those that have fallen are remembered even to this day in our hearts, our souls and the freedom that we fought for will endure forever.

    I salute all every day for those that have fallen with our countries flag that I firmly hang to greet those that visit my home. There are no more words to express the sadness of a great loss that we all endure, the sorrow that is so ever deep and the great pain of those memories.

    God speed to all on this Memorial Day

    • Hi Charlie M
      I salute you and all that have served ,my self USMC
      1971 to 1973 mos 1371 combat eng.
      Clint

        • Hi JDH
          Have you got your sights on that 10”box yet
          and when are you going back out Clint

          • First question – YUP – #2 – Not sure it all depends on my search team, and their health and availability- JDA

  60. “During the gold rush its a good time to be in the pick and shovel business”

    ― Mark Twain

    • randawg – What is a “caseknife”?:

      Source: The Adventures of Huckleberry Finn

      Author: Mark Twain

      “Right is right, and wrong is wrong.”

      “Well, [Tom Sawyer] says, there’s excuse for picks and letting-on in a case like this; if it warn’t so, I wouldn’t approve of it, nor I wouldn’t stand by and see the rules broke—because right is right, and wrong is wrong, and a body ain’t got no business doing wrong when he ain’t ignorant and knows better. It might answer for you to dig Jim out with a pick, without any letting on, because you don’t know no better; but it wouldn’t for me, because I do know better. Gimme a caseknife.”

  61. I want to thank everyone today who served in the armed forces. This includes Forrest and my father (who has passed on) as pilots. Freedom is s wonderful thing. Thanks to all who have fought for it.

    • Yes, thank you. Those words don’t seem to be enough, I wish I had better ones.

  62. Is there any reason that WWWH can’t be the ‘big picture’? Perhaps it’s a map of the area that has most of the worlds warm water releases on it? It doesn’t take much distance for the flowr’s warmth to halt as the waters continues to ‘run’ down the canyon. I’m guessing the first two biggest flows are booking it pretty good (just because they might be named for Hem & Fitz)… but check out that 3rd flow , the one that wanders arounds around for a while.
    Well, I’ve digressed… go back to the first sentence and let me know. Thx.

    • OS2 – Or, the ‘Big Pitcher’? Consider the Source. The Alpha and the Omega. The ‘lead dog’, Canis Major. Sirius the ‘Dog Star’ and the ‘Dog Days’ of Summer. And D’Nile flooding. That’s a long river, also.

      A whole lotta water comes out of all those thermal features on the three rivers that form Madison Junction. What do you think, Dizzy Dean?

      • Nice to hear from you Lisa. I was thinking a bit bigger…. not Madison junctions 3 rivers, but possibly the 3 biggest canyons in the park. Madison canyon might be one of them, I don’t know. But some of the others are pretty big. Think Big Picture thoughts. I think most are thinking WWH is a more a point than a region.

    • OS2…I think we are in the same place and if so I agree that WWWH is the “big picture”. I have it narrowed down a bit, and finally found the Beowulf connection…right under my nose. Still looking for Elvis…but I think he describes an action. Shake it baby!

      • Hi Sandy… further up this thread Vox put a FF quote: “Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking. f” Thanks Vox’.
        That quote rings for me…. if the WWWH is a region, and the clues & TC are with in that region…. you are indeed, more than half-way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking.

        Good luck finding that smiling crocodile. I hear he has a gold tooth or two.

        • OS2,
          Not that is matter to me personally, but there is good second hand info on the subject. Take it for what it’s worth…
          ———————————————————–
          In part:
          dal on December 29, 2013 at 12:41 am said:
          $bill-
          I agree..
          Forrest once told a searcher who suggested that the entire YNP could be the place where warm waters halt that he was wrong…
          That it was a specific place and not a region…
          Which suggests to me that it could not be something like the continental divide or the western front of a range of mountains…as has been suggested in other posts on this blog…
          ————————————————————-

          With that mentioned, I could argue the Continental Divide might not be considered a region as much as a geographical large area within the Rocky Mountains region / range with a ‘specific understand’ as to the water distribution of snow melts and rain waters. Which, in this type of theory, “nailing down” which waters might be involve, relies on which canyon is being told of.. hence the idea of the ‘first two clues’ being solved at the same time, by more than several searchers. And I’ll add; “learning” where WWsH… which might be the idea of the ‘big picture’

          LOL it’s not a popular idea because Halt, to many, simply means stop… while another definition means; a temporary change, in direction…

          Just saying……………..

          • Thanks Seeker, I never saw Dal’s comment to $bill … or have since forgotten about it. Is there a recorded quote from FF that supports Dal’s comment? I’d like to see the whole context for a little more clarity.

            Considert what someone means when they say they are from Los Angeles. In other parts of the country people don’t know that LA (the city) is within Los Angeles (the county). The city is 469 sq mi. The county is 4,752 sq miles. You can be a cowpoke on a big ranch and still say that you are from L.A.
            Thx again for your help.

        • OS2 – I’m working with a specific WWWH that lies within a larger region of warm waters (which lies within an even larger area of warm waters). A tight focus, if you will.

        • OS2 – Ergo, if the first clue is:

          “Begin it where warm waters halt,
          And take it in the canyon down.
          Not far but too far to walk,”

          For my solve, the map directions for that clue would be:

          Start at Madison Junction and drive 10.3 miles down Madison Canyon.

          “IT’S” that simple.

          • I know that is your hidey spot, I think you’ve said it several times, and it may be Fenn’s too. But I see one fault, I believe FF said he knew of only one route to the TC (paraphrased)… and it is easy to see that there sare everal ways to get to Barns hole and Bakers hole….. it is on a river after all, so theres two right there. There may be a specific ford or place to cross the river, or reach your island, but I can’t verify that. Good luck, watch out for fishermen and bears. The Chase may soon have a champion, and it could be you.

        • OS2 – And that right turn to “put in” at Barns Holes Road is less than a mile to the West Yellowstone Entrance, and Baker’S Hole is a straight forward three miles or so from there. Let’s say the distance to my hidey spot from the Barns Holes Road turnoff is 4.5 miles maximum by road and on foot.

          So, both metaphorically and literally, my first clue takes me ” more than half way to the treasure”. The metaphorical part is about bisecting golden triangles and putting in all the way down the Madison River at Forrest’s favorite fishing holes along the way. That Craig Matthews link I provided from the YNP site a while back really outlines the Blue Ribbon holes between Madison Junction and Baker’S Hole. More than half of those are upriver from Barns Hole #1.

          All IMO.

          • OS2 – Thank you for your kind wishes and encouragement. I think Forrest hid the bronze chest at the end of his 10 mile “walk” along the Madison River, fly fishing and camping for three nights along the way. He said he would not be doing that again. In the TFTW preface.

            After studying my topo map and Craig Matthews’ YNP link, I think Forrest put in at one end of Riverside Drive or just downstream at a pullout with a walking trail. I think he had dropped off his dingy and camping gear there with his car, then drove it back to his campsite close to the Madison at Baker’S Hole. I believe he left two backpacks with the treasure and the bronze chest in them, locked in the trunk or hatch compartment of his rented or borrowed “Sedan”. Forrest could have taken a nice bike ride back to his “put in”, or his cousin, Chip, could have picked him up at Baker’S Hole and dropped him off at his TFTW launch point.

            Craig Matthews said it was about 8 river miles total from the beginning of Cable Car Run to Baker’S Hole. Two miles upstream is the Long Riffle section, next to Riverside Drive and just below.

            Forrest said 10 miles is now TFTW with his dingy attached to his belt along the Madison River bottom, in his fly fishing waders. So only one way to the treasure for him and for us. No shortcuts. No boats allowed on the Madison inside the park. No trails on that No Man’s Land stretch.

            I believe he took a “Sedan” one way and a bike on the return via the Boundary Trail that ends at the FennHaven Cabins, then along the Riverside Trail to Barns Road out to the highway for about 2 miles. Less than a 5 mile bike ride. He could originally easily have thrown that bike in the “water high” of the Madison River at his “put in”.

            I believe Forrest left his Dingy tied to a fallen tree I can see on my topo map, went to the “Sedan” to get first the chest backpack, and then the treasure backpack, then waded across to the narrow ‘Smiley’ straight, right offshore from my hidey spot. There appears to be a little ‘gold tooth’ bridge to tie up there. A good, narrow place to ‘Ford’ the about 70′ wide river there. Which happens to be right where the Boundary Trail ends. And where the trail that follows the contours of my S blaze, along the campground shore, begins.

            I believe Forrest camped at my spot overnight, having grabbed a sandwich, a flashlight and gloves for the overnight, so he could enjoy the Sunset and watching the birds and jets overhead. I believe he used the pine sap I could see on my ’emblazoned’ tree to make pine tar to create a watertight seal for the chest and then let it dry overnight. In the morning, I think he wrapped the chest in a tanned hide, placed it deep in the soft earth of my molehill hole, then mounded the dirt on top.

            His two trips from his car were, in fact, “done in one afternoon” in this solve. I believe he took his time the next morning loading his dingy and gear back into the rented “Sedan”, and maybe even left that stuff in a cave along the Downstream Loop of the Riverside Trail. With the bike he went back to pick up at his ‘put in’. Which could be the same hidey space the Fenn family used to cache their stuff over Winter, before building their cabins.

            But you are right. My friend and I put in to cross the Madison River on the opposite shore of the Madison, in public view, and quite a distance from my hidey spot. Like about 200′ from it. Because the camp trail Forrest might have used was under water. And we didn’t want to walk the 3 miles in from Boundary Street with our gear and float tube.

            But during the “water high” of Spring runoff, we couldn’t have done this at a more challenging time. My friend is an expert at fording such rivers. She worked at the fly shop owned by the guy who shared the term, “Flywater” with Grant McClintock, the book author, and has fished the Salmon River for Steelhead with him. For me, “IT” was very scarey, but certainly “worth the cold”.

            All IMO.

          • Lisa, Im gonna have to print that out and follow it on a paper map, my old brain wanders too much. But another thought comes to me…. isn’t this a popular bear area? Would Fenn’s bones last long in such an area? I kinda got the idea FF planned for hist bones & box to stay together for some time. Might be some kind of rock vault… but a decaying corpse is very tempting to a determined bear. I dont want to puncture hope, just a grandmother’s imagination at work.

  63. Today was not one of my better. I was not so cheery as I thought about our service Men and Women that have given so much with so little asked in return. I watched people vacationing laughing driving everywhere doing fun things. And even though I was not trying to put it in perspective to what I saw I couldn’t help think. What are there thoughts today and do very many really think that deeply about what today really is. Without those service Men and Women and there sacrifices very few would be doing today the things I saw.
    Reminded me of the story in Mr. Fenns MWFM were he talks about the forgotten soldiers and covered head stones. And that no one is crying as time covers history.
    So to all of you that gave the greatest sacrifice gone past and still with us my hat has been off for you this entire day.
    As the previous searches said Thanks just isn’t enough but I hope it helps.
    Sincerely. Grasshopper

    • Thanks definitely isn’t enough for their sacrifice. ” watched people vacationing laughing driving everywhere doing fun things.” Not wasting the freedom they helped provide while giving thanks still may not be enough but it is better to give a smile then frown when remembering those lost. Just my opinion.

      • A humble smile indeed and indeed Those Freedoms. Thanks for sharing that angle of perception. Have a good evening.
        GH

  64. All of these years I have never bought in to the Omega theories. I didn’t think it had any bearing on the chase but was only a neat way to end the book. Recently, I happened across something in the TTotC that really made me think. It’s not a double Omega, but the Alpha that will eventually lead you to the Omega. The beginning and the end. Without knowing the Alpha you’ll never find the Omega. The two are always contiguous and here is no exception.
    I missed it last June because I didn’t listen.
    .BOTG loading…

    • Vernonica S – I too have not assigned much value to the double omega being significant in finding the treasure. I think that the double omega is something significant that Forrest assigns to his own identity. I also think that Forrest’s decision not to include a double omega at the end of “Once Upon A While” is a subtle nudge for Chasers not to hold the double omega at a high level importance.

      If you are interested in Alphas and Omegas, I believe that there are at least a couple of pairs of mountain lakes next to each other with those names. One location is on the east side of the Tetons. Happy hunting!

    • good luck out there V ! I never really fed into the omega hype either…and probably still won’t. Fun to look at though….kind of reminds me of a particular Sloane sketch.

    • The sentence (p49) where he talks about Skippy turning Alpha is a bit weird though.

      • I took that as a reference to turning Alpha Male, as with wolves. Basically, becoming more independent and willful, like competing with his dad for leadership of the pack. (In human society, that usually ends with the son going his own way and starting a new “pack” of his own.) A Beta Male would be one who goes along to get along and doesn’t “rock the boat” very much. You can have many Betas in a pack, but only one true Alpha.

        However, I did just realize that, as a reference to the Greek alphabet, it also works as a hint (not a clue) for my current solve-in-progress. Thanks. 🙂

  65. Today is National Hamburger Day ! I’m opting for a nice veggie version on the grill for lunch.

    • Thanks Ken! I never dismiss a good excuse for me to enjoy a good burger! 🙂

    • Ken,

      Veggie burger??? Really… lose that hat then… lol
      I must be bored today, Supposedly White Castle might be the first to enter the hamburger or maybe some guy named Louis Lassen… there really isn’t any true information on who or when actually was first.
      What I found interesting; White Castle change the name to beef burgers during WWII so it would be related to Hamburg Germany… I guess this was how, in later years, many change the name of French Fries to American Fries.

      Anyways Ken, I’m having Italian sweet sausage, saute’ pepper and onions, on a hot dog roll [ not made from real dogs ] with a side of plain old fries, Oh! and grilled corn on the cob… if ya like, I’ll leave a plate by the fence.

      • Funny you mentioned White Castle! When I first read it I thought you were going to rehash an idea mentioned here a few years back in regard to White Castle and the Chase. Then of course the term *sliders* and Fenn’s numerous references to baseball players. Bon appetite’ !

  66. Trying to decide what muddies the chase waters more- spring runoff, or far fetched searcher theories.

  67. Thank you , Blex and Ken. I think I have already found what I was looking for with the A&Os .

  68. Double omega, turned sideways makes a (g) ~ this sideways makes (i) and a airplane makes a (f) , mirror and spills ( fig ) . KT is the title to the gold, could be Knights of the Templer, fenn is from. Temple TX, and he’s a night kind of person. Fig ures along with his on the sides of the hills, and the all seeing the is everywhere, its not something you have to see to believe but you must believe it to see it.

  69. I had a problem with 200ft but just seen where f said he liked fling @ 200ft into the teeth of the Rockies, thank you.

  70. Any updates from the four search states. Any improvements? What are the water tables like?

    High?
    Muddy?
    Swift?
    Raging?
    Overflowing?
    Calm?
    Trickling?
    Dry?

    Looks like more rain on the way for parts of Colorado again today (my home state, not search state).

    If anybody cares to share…..Thanks.

    SRW

    • We had snow in Durango CO this morning. Still cold and blustery. Brrrr. The low temperatures are slowing down the melt, at least here in the SW part of the state.

    • SRW, I check out the Yellowstone cameras fairly often, and there was a lot of snow this year but no signs of it on any of the cameras except Mt Washburn and the peaks. I would guess that most of the streams have peaked, but just my guess. Maybe someone has been out and has better info.

      • Thanks Not Obsessed,

        I have been tracking the water tables through the USGS hydro sites but the gauges near my area of interest are still at or very near flood heights. It seems like it is taking forever for the waters to recede with seemingly more water on the way almost daily.

        At this rate, I may have to visit my site in October…..LOL.

        Thanks again,

        SRW

        • In general in Colorado, water runs high between Memorial Day and the 4th of July. Of course this varies from year to year, and it’s also a big state – the Yampa, the Dolores, and the Arkansas don’t run in synch.

          And six years ago or so, we even had Labor Day flooding in my corner, but that was very unusual.

          This year we seem to have very good snow all through the CO Rockies. And at least in my part of the state, for the last two-three months we’ve had a pattern of 3-4 days of warm/sunny alternating with 3-4 days of cool/wet weather, over and over. So the runoff (in my corner anyway, between Rocky Mtn Nat’l Park and the Snowy Range in WYO) is running behind schedule.

          JAKe

          • Thanks JAKe,

            Yea, that’s been the pattern here too. Sun, rain, sun, rain. Wash, rinse, repeat.

            Plus the snow on the peaks. There is still a lot of snow up there.

            At my search area, I don’t mind the deep water so much. But it’s the fast water that concerns me the most.

            Looks like a little more patients is in order. I’ll wait.

            Thanks for the update,

            SRW

  71. I’ve never been involved in a mystery where thousands of people have tons of circumstantial evidence based on their interpretations and some are so sure they have solved it but the case is still wide open with no end in site.
    Gotta love it!

    • Perhaps the Chase will be a future episode of *Unsolved Mysteries*. Stranger Things have happened.

      • I think I saw that a hundred thousand times here.
        An open mind is a good thing as long as you know when and where to close it.

    • Well hello Jake, Forrest can update the state of the chase, but he chooses to be silent. Silence speaks the loudest.

    • Good point Jake Makes sense though- the end is Indulgence and FF hid it so you can’t see it, therefore no end in site. Just the way FF meant it to be. IMO.

  72. I have a question for everyone:
    What single word in the poem gives you the most grief ? For me it is and always will be “MEEK”. I swear, it has driven me loco over the years . I don’t know why, it just does. I know the definition, synonyms and antonyms, but it just sticks in my brain.
    I’d like to hear y’alls imput

    • Hi Veronica;

      For me, “From there it’s no place for the meek” Indicates that from hoB – forward, you will enter a place that the meek might not want to enter.

      This “place” is not dangerous. The NAME of this place or area might scare a searcher. Something like “Rattle Snake Gulch” – or Tarantula Bluffs – or Sidewinder Cliffs. Something like that – Dead-mans Canyon etc. The place is not dangerous, but the name of the place might keep the MEEK from entering.

      This works for my solve anyway – Good Luck – Don’t be afraid of entering this area – It is NOT dangerous – Just the NAME is scary – JMO – JDA

      • Joe Brown habitated the Gardiner/Yellowstone confluence. Yankee Jim Canyon is no place for the meek. Go for it newbies 🙂 🙂 🙂

    • I’ve often wondered whether Brown us capitalized when it shouldn’t be, and meek is not when it SHOULD be.

      Joseph Meek was a Mountain man. So “no place for the meek” might mean a place Meek would not be found. In my LARGER area solution Kansas is “no place for the Meek” It is west of “Where warm waters halt” (ThexTrail of Tears) in Oklahoma.

      Just wanted to throw that out there to help add to the confusion. lol.

      • Sparrow,

        I have had similar thoughts myself regarding capitalization switches but this hasn’t lead me anywhere, at least so far. What about the word “wood” as another example? Could it refer to a person named Wood? Add this to the confusion that we and others confront as you say.

    • Brown with a capital B where it is not trout and not based on history (it’s based on maps and physical geography). (Not that I totally exclude all those trout and esoteric history references). Does everyone else have that one solved?

      • No (not EVERYONE else has that one solved). Thanks for asking.

        You have questions. I have answers. As always, IMO.

        • Hay Tall,
          You be sharp! But just in case my Cherry tree fails to blossom…
          What are the winning Mega Millions numbers for tonight’s drawing? 🙂

      • MBG,

        IMO it’s impossible for Little Indie to locate the HOB because she is restricted to two sources of information; the poem and a map of the RMs. The question didn’t say ‘maps’, so my interpretation is that it is a SINGLE common map you’d find at most stores. It is also my belief that the answer does not reside within the poem, though there are hints that will point the way to the first correct HOB.

        Kind of like trail blazes if you will, though I am not inferring this has anything to do with “If you’ve been wise….”.

        Good luck.

        Pinatubocharlie

    • Veronica, a few years ago, when I first started work on my current solve, I decided that since the meek shall inherit the earth, no place for the meek had to be the sky. And so I took off without much of a flight plan, but heading across terrain that was definitely not for the meek.

      More recently, that thought has developed a little. There is a concept that suggests we have entered the age of Indulgence (having moved on from maternalistic and paternalistic societies). This is an era in which the Will is venerated – attempting to perfect the art of finding, and living in accordance with, one’s true will. It requires a deeply spiritual approach to life and the application and appreciation of agape (love) [see also SB 183: The Scream – for a twist on the word “agape”]. But it is not for the meek. We cannot be shrinking violets. To find the treasure we have to first find our Will – and exercise it. Maybe Little Willie is already ahead of us on that path!

      • voxpops – I think no place for the meek, who will inherit the Earth, is the “water high”. That whole stanza is about “IT” as the Madison River journey in my solve.

        And no place for the meek refers to that No Man’s Land between Barns Holes and Baker’S Hole, where there are no boats with paddles allowed, and no roads and no YNP Rangers. And where the Brown bears, and Moose and Buffalo roam. And where there now are Beavers (the Meek brothers probably wouldn’t believe that, but their ilk should stay away!)

        Brave Forrest waded happily along this stretch, through the Beaver Meadows, fly fishing along, and he wishes he could go back. Sounds idyllic to me.

        IMO.

    • Veronica S – That’s a fun question, but I honestly can’t settle on just one! Meek is definitely one of them though!

    • For me, I would have to say Brown. It is the capitalization that stumps me. I don’t really think it is a person. Could be a color, but F doesn’t generally capitalize colors. Could be a species. Could be a generalization of F’s. For me NPFTM just means it is time to stop being a follower and blaze your own trail.

      • @Yellowdog-Brown is a head-scratcher for sure. I am in the fish group on this one. I may be very mistaken in my way of thinking, but I believe he would have said House of Brown but he chose HOME instead. Also, I have heard fishermen saying “I have a meeting with Mr. Brown” or some such phrase in reference to going fishing for trout. If I am wrong then I am waaaaaayyyy off base and have been for a very long time. I have been wrong in the past but this one would break my heart!
        Pesky capital B…

    • To @Veronica’s call out question: The word in the poem that gives me “grief” so-to-speak, for me, is “title”.

      For, there is no “Title” for the poem and in the poem he gives you “title to the gold”, but there is more than gold in the chest. There is nothing in the poem the gives me any form of understanding to the word Title!

      All other words have a relationship to the wholeness of the poem. They form a semblance within the poems structure. The word “title” has no logical semblance within the structure of the poem. That word “title” and the entire line ;being the last line ,for this matter, is the odd quacking little duckling.

      If it instead read ” I give you title to the treasure(s) , chest or trove” , it would be straightforward in meaning. BUT ,the big butski , it’s says “I give you title to the gold”.

      What about all the other items in the chest? Therefore, I say in my opinion , that this word “title” and entire last line , is independent to anything before it in the poem.

      You have to solve the poem and find the chest to know what it is. The poem does not in any way tell you what ” title to the gold” is.

      That’s my opinion.

      • Oh we’re talking ducks again – I love it!
        I agree tho – I think “title to the gold” is not referring to the treasure chest but something entirely different. Keep it flowing Alsetenash. Can you explain your name – very unusual.

        • @wwwamericana. My name is the combination All set Shane – Shane in reverse. Some people call me Tesla redux lol.

        • The word “Treasure” or “chest” would not rhyme with “Your effort will be worth the cold”. That’s all. You can safely assume that the “gold” means the treasures in the chest, IMO.
          — MK

          • As my granddad used to say, and I think applies to the Chase, “Don’t never assume nothin”

      • Alsetenash – Do a ‘find in page’ for ‘title’ in this legal definition of Trover. I think “title” and “trove” are connected in the Poem. But, then again, I am named after Elizabeth I.

        https://legal-dictionary.thefreedictionary.com/trover

        Somewhere I remember a title being given to the Poem as follows:

        “Where the Treasure Lies”

        You could also do a ‘find in page’ for references to ‘lies’, as I did. At my hidey spot, the exact location is paramount to that, “Finders keepers, losers weepers” thing working.

        Just read Dal’s awesome comment on SB #167 about (paraphrased) entering Yellowstone, where Forrest’s heart is. I think I may have just done that at my hidey spot. I hope.

        I think Forrest would respond:

        “Just take the chest and go in peace.”

        So much of the Poem makes perfect sense to me now.

        All IMO.

        • Alsetenash – About that “gold” in the last line of the Poem. An excerpt from Forrest’s interview answer on SB #167:

          FF: I said in my book that my obituary should say, “I wish I could have lived to do the things I was attributed to.” During my art gallery years I advertised full page color in some of the most prominent magazines of that time, which made me an “expert” in the eyes of many. It was good for business, but it also made me a target. My treasure story lit a fuse that will burn until someone finds the chest full of gold, and perhaps beyond.

          It appears that is just a euphemism Forrest uses to refer to the bronze chest and it’s contents. Plus, “gold” rhymes with “cold”. IMO.

          • @Lisa Cesari. I understand what your saying in your 3 responses. What I have said I think is what I think. I dunno anything.

            I look at things from inside the box and I look at the box from the outside looking in also.

            Thanks for your interesting responses.

          • Alsetenash – You are most welcome.

            And you wrote:

            “I look at things from inside the box and I look at the box from the outside looking in also.”

            I did the same thing, straddling the YNP “box” Boundary at my hidey spot. Looking in, then looking out. Wondering. Especially about that Act of Trover.

            I still have dirt caked under my fingernails. Are moles blind, btw?

            Giggles.

          • Alsetenash – Do you think there was a sign on the bronze chest, when Forrest buried it in that molehill?:

            “Please touch, we are responsible”

            Just a hypothesis. Star-nosed Moles can’t see bold writing. And they can’t read. Like Alligators can’t.

            Giggles.

          • @Lisa Cesari. There’s many angles to an approach one can be on . Like I had just said about correctly or incorrectly interpreting or applying an ATF from FF. You just gave a perfect example of such lol.

            I said ,”I look at things from inside the box and I look at the box from the outside also.”.

            You responded , in kind, “I did the same thing, straddling the YNP “box” Boundary at my hidey spot. Looking in, then looking out. Wondering. Especially about that Act of Trover.”

            That’s not what I meant. Another way for me to reiterate what I said would be: I was in my body looking around with my eyes. Then suddenly I left by body and looked at my body while I was floating above it. Lol.

            “I look at things from inside the box and I look at the box from the outside also.”.

            Not just looking out away from the box.But in the box and from the outside of the box looking at the box.

            🙂

            IMO .

          • @Lisa. There’s been many a chefs that use spaghetti squash as a pasta with marinara ,as for a gluten free and vegan alternative. Spaghetti squash is not a pasta but you can call it spaghetti if you choose. Lol. Many ideas can be squashed easily!

            For me, a quote from FF that is and has been my greatest guide is :

            “Your destination is small, but its location is huge”.

            Alternative ideas can be just as good, whatever you prefer. Every thing , every thought is interestring and could be valid.

            IMO .

      • Just speculating here….

        Forrest has referred to the Chest as “indulgence” in the past. Aside from its particular meaning within Catholicism, an indulgence is a luxury. A pleasing thing to be enjoyed. But “gold” is often used (especially in poetry) to describe something that is beyond value, something truly precious (even if not actually made of gold).

        Maybe the chest and the “gold” are the same thing. Or, maybe there is something else up for grabs that Forrest values more highly than the stated treasure. The only way to know for sure is to correctly complete the search.

        • Hi Ray;

          An intriguing thought. I wonder, if true, what Forrest values more highly than the stated treasure. HUMMM??? JDA

          • His family (IMO) and his life adventures.
            Perhaps he is waiting for another new adventure…..

          • JDA,

            THERE WERE THOSE WHO LOOKED FOR PLEASURE
            AS FAR AS THEY COULD SEE
            AND ALL THE WHILE THEIR SOULMATE TREASURE
            RESTED AT THEIR KNEE.

            This is part of TTOTC song that Bob Hayworth said Forrest had written and sent him.
            Could it be what he values most now?

            Bur

          • Bur;

            Sure sounds good to me – and I agree. I love my Grand kids very, very much 🙂 🙂 JDA

        • Doesn’t make any sense to me Ray.
          Although his church is in the mountains.

        • @Ray Henry.

          FF said , “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues.”

          Could a few words be ” I give you title to the gold” ?

          Q: Did you name the poem The Thrill of the Chase?
          FF:No. I forgot to name it.

          After all of his creating this ,he simply “forgot”?

          So, if he did name the poem or say, gave the poem a title; would the last line of the poem have a different perspective? Would this alter his intended meaning as for the last line? Forgetting to name it means he never had a name for it to begin with. What’s in the poem is important . Naming the poem ,or say , giving the poem a title; changes the dynamic of the beginning to the ending structure of the poem. A “name of the poem” would change a lot of perceptions due to the “name of the poem’s relationship to every word and line. Especially in effect to and for the last line.

          So yes, I agree Ray, that “title to the gold” is of something of probable great value ,that perhaps is within the “treasures bold” . But the poem doesn’t tell you what , just that it is either made of Gold , or gold is actually a metaphor. He is being specific here by specifically separating Gold as an element. He gives “you title” to it (the gold) . The last sentence rhymes with the first sentence (bold/old/gold). The poem is very purposeful in structure.

          The last line , theretofore, has been given a high value in the poem by FF. So much so that he “forgot” to name it. The value of,”title to the gold”, it is perhaps not about it being useful in solving the poem , but a value of something outside of the poem and chest ( gone alone With).

          Probably something ‘not listed in the contents’.

          Just my opinion.

          • Alsetenash – Looking for multiple entendres for Forrest’s use of “treasures bold” in the Poem:

            https://www.yourdictionary.com/bold

            – Steep Climb
            – Castle
            – Rock Face
            – Pink YNP Boundary on my topo map.
            – Brave
            – Confident
            – Brazen

            Also, since ‘bold’ modifies ‘treasures’ in that line of the Poem, I even thought of changing the typeface of ‘treasures’ to BOLD, and reading the line again, emphasizing ‘treasures’. Or just bolding the previous ‘S’ at the end to emphasize the plural and that ‘S’:

            ‘treasureS bold’

            It also occurred to me that the old FennHaven Cabins are painted a dark gold color. It would be totally awesome if Forrest included the title to that property and structures in the bronze chest. That would be “worth the cold” for me! I could live there year around, making friends with the YNP Winter Keeper, who likes to take photos.

            Big Smile.

          • Al, Your thoughts on not naming the poem are very provocative. It’s scratching the surface & I feel there is way more depth to be plumbed here.
            It also suggests to me that IF there is a riddle in the poem, it is here & hear in the 6th stanza.

          • @OZ2. Thanks for the response! I’ll refer to this FF quote:

            “…..But if you’re gonna find the treasure, you’re gonna have to solve the riddle that’s in my poem. The nine clues that are in my poem….” FF.

            I read here that there is some derision about there being a riddle in the poem. The quote above kind of says there is a riddle. So, the “if” there is a riddle is kind of muted as a point ,perhaps? It’s a riddle. IMO .

          • OS2 – In the movie, “National Treasure”, the solution to the middle to find the hidden treasures of the Knights Templar was:

            “Heere at the Wall’

            “Broadway at the Wall”

            So, my fly fishing friend and I found a ‘ford’ to cross the Madison River at it’s widest point. Which was the ‘Broadway’ to cross “IT”. And the depth was probably shallowest there.

            And isn’t YNP kind of a ‘National Tressure’?

      • @ Alsetenash- I take TITLE to mean that he is giving legal ownership of the chest once its found, to the finder. I remember that he said he worked with lawyers (I’m assuming it was about the legalities of where an abandoned trove could be placed, with the least amount of trouble for the finder, public property rights, etc…) IMO , the two terms “Trove and Title” are legal terms that had to be placed in the poem to transfer ownership to person who retrieves Indulgence. Doesn’t that just give you the warm fuzzies ? Just typing that sentence with the far fetched hope that you may be the lucky finder set 1,000 butterflies lose in my stomach! All of this is strictly my opinion, of course, but it makes sense in my head.

        • Veronica…. I think so too… that the words trove and title serve a legal purpose…… but the poem is very economical with words and I don’t think FF used any in it has just one meaning or purpose.

        • @veronica. I do not think, nor believe, that there is any “legal speak” in the poem. For that to be in the poem would be pointless and notwithstanding in any courts of law, anywho. For that purpose ,he would just leave documents in the chest if that was at all needed. Every word in the poem was purposeful to finding the chest. Taking up words of space for legal speak is, to my logical mind, pointless.

          In a remote sense to this idea would be , “just take the chest and go in peace”. As soon as you tell people where you found it, you may expect some legal challenges and taxes to it ,in our type of society nowadays.

          The poem is a riddle. All of it. In my opinion.

          IMO .

        • *** *** *** ***
          VeronicaS – “I remember that he said he worked with lawyers (I’m assuming it was about the legalities of where an abandoned trove could be placed, with the least amount of trouble for the finder, public property rights, etc…)”
          *** *** *** ***

          Hey-O, Veronica –

          It was about the legalities of artifact ownership when artifacts are retrieved from various types of land – federal, state, indian, etc, and had to do with other matters than the chase.

          And as others have suggested, a line in a poem would not be of any use as a legal contract.

          JAKe

      • Alsetenash,

        IMO, when you figure out what the riddle is all about, then you’ll know exactly why ‘title’ is important, quite possibly in more ways than one.

        Also, though it’s not the first clue because he’s told us WWWH is the first clue, IMO, the answer to ‘title’ could be the real beginning to the final solution.

        Good luck………..Pinatubocharlie

    • My solution revolves around Joe Meek. A place where he went but didn’t stay for long.

  73. I totally agree with that logic, JDA , and that jibes with my thinking as well. What’s in a name anyway?

  74. Just another Forrest Fenn story.

    As I was being prepped for Anterior Cervical Discectomy with Fusion and Plate Surgery last Thursday (NO COMMENT) the anesthesiologist came over to me and explained that he likes to get to know his patients a little beforehand and ask them what are the things that make them happy and give them enjoyment and pleasure.

    When he asked me I immediately said “Golf” but then immediately realized that I haven’t played Golf in over 2 years and dont know if I’ll ever play again. Then, I realized the thing that has consumed most of my time in the past couple years is Forrest Fenns treasure hunt. So, I said to Ray, my anesthesiologist, who is a retired NASCAR Racecar Driver (I believed him cause he showed me pictures on his phone with everyone from Petty to Earnhardt to Paul Newman) “The thing that gives me enjoyment and pleasure is researching Forrest Fenns Treasure.”

    Ray said “Huh” with hesitant uncomfortableness and asked me what that was. I explained briefly what the Forrest Fenn Treasure Hunt was all about.

    Ray then explained that when he’s administering the anesthesia to someone he likes to talk to them about something that gives them happiness and enjoyment and pleasure. So as the person drifts off to a deep sleep with a happy thing on their mind they just might DREAM about it while their under. Ray also explained that most people woke up from surgery and did in fact DREAM the whole time of that one thing that made them happy.

    Ray said he had some things to do and would see me in a short Once Upon A While (sorry, I had to) in the operating room and walked away.

    I thought how great this all was. The fact that I’ll DREAM the whole time about Forrest Fenns Treasure Hunt and maybe, just maybe, somehow realize something that I never figured out before and wake up with THE ANSWER to this whole thing and have that TREASURES location right in the palm of my hand! How GREAT this might be! Hallelujah! The Treasure Will BE MINE!

    So, after saying my goodbyes to family they took me into the operating room and affixed me to the table and got me on an IV drip. I started to feel happy already! All of a sudden while I’m looking straight up to the ceiling Ray pokes his face right over the top of mine, cups an oxygen mask over my face and says, “HEY, tell me about that treasure thing again, what’s that guys name?”

    I got so excited to explain it to Ray again and thought to myself that I was going to give him a more comprehensive understanding of Forrest Fenns Treasure Hunt and explain to him in detail everything that I have learned over the past 2 years.

    I said, “His name is Forrest Fenn and he hid a Treasure in the Rockie…..”

    I woke up 2 hours later in the recovery room. I did not DREAM about the Treasure and I do not know where the Treasure is.

    Back to the drawing board I guess. 🙂

    • Sweet Dreams Pauley T – and may they all come true.

      I hope that the surgery went well, and that you are healing nicely.

      Get well, stay strong, and good luck in making your dreams come true – JDA

    • Thanks for sharing your story Pauley! I think our forrest fenn treasure hunt has given a few or many of us a happy diversion to some difficulties in life. I know it has for me too.
      I hope things are going well for you! Keep dreaming…..maybe you will figure this thing out.

      • Thanks Lou Lee.
        Forrest Fenn has truly eased our pain.
        He is our “Field of Dreams!”

  75. I have never thought of it like that, Sparrow, and you may be on to something. I guess with f anything goes. I have given up trying to make sense of the rules of grammar where he is concerned. Forrest has made his own set of rules and we have to be wise enough to recognize when he bends said rules.

  76. Maybe it’s time to get our hands dirty – we’ve all become so hung up on trivia that we are failing to see the point that is laying right there on top of the dirt – waiting for us to pick it up.

    So many stories, so many theories, so much imagination and still no success – what are we missing?

    • funny you ask that… I believe the problem remains the same as early in the Chase when folks failed to get past the first two clues. There may be one or two that may have progressed with some *ideas* about later clues but the chest is still waiting….

      • Ken ~ ‘I believe the problem remains the same as early in the Chase when folks failed to get past the first two clues.’
        What do you mean by; failed to get past the first two clues?
        I mean, fenn has said many times, in different ways, searcher ‘went by the seven remaining clues’ ‘figured the first couple of clues… walked right past the chest’

        So if you mean they didn’t get any “clues” correct [in order] after the first two… I get it then.

        lol, But now we have some [searcher] with possibly four clues, that fenn knows are correct [in order], only he seems uncertain if the searcher knows or not. Might it be because of what the searcher stated the rest of his/her progress was?

        IF some have gotten that far it the poem, [ and other than having to be on site. We are not sure if the first four clues were simply mentioned or told of the searchers actions ] what else seems to be stumping them from getting 5 6 7 or 8 clues?
        Another wrong turn idea… or do we even need to travel the later clues?
        For example only… Hey F, I was at this WWsH and that canyon, when I looked in this direction I saw what I believe to be hoB. It wasn’t far away, and I started looking for NPFTM. I couldn’t find anything that gave me the idea for that clues so, I went to my hoB to try and find where to put in and get to NPFTM… but no luck finding the chest on this trip.

        Would that hypothetical explanation give fenn enough information, to make the comment about the four first clues?
        To put a finer point on the idea… does “from there” [ in stanza 3 ] even tell a searcher to move?
        And don’t pull your hair out yet, but I’m going to ask again… is this why little Indy or anyone else… “can not get *closer* [to the chest / figure out where the chest is] than the first two clues”??

        Still rambling and rumbling……..

        • Seeker,

          “For example only… Hey F, I was at this WWsH and that canyon, when I looked in this direction I saw what I believe to be hoB. It wasn’t far away, and I started looking for NPFTM.”

          Some of us have written Forrest of their searches, but also of future searches without having all the answers. So we tell of places (possibles) that might relate to clue solves but don’t give them as clue answers. At least until a botg has been performed to confirm clue solves.

          So that’s how maybe there were 3 or 4 answers to clues, but those places were not actually said as being answers to clue 1,2,3,4 or 1,2,3,8.

          Bur

        • Jeebzum! I ain’t got no hair left…just kiddin’. Yes…that is what I meant about getting past, meaning, they still do not know AND no correct clues after the fact. Fenn’s comment about the *maybe* four clues is just that… he doesn’t know for sure. I’m guessing when I say he/she/they don’t know either…and I think that is a good guess.
          The *from there* finer point is up in the air(maybe not figuratively) and my inkling again is that this is describing further movement beyond where the searcher is at that point. I was looking at a couple of teacher tutorial aids on how to help kids learn using maps and directions on maps. Very clear with street names and pictures of buildings and landmarks. Interesting points made when looking at the very basics of direction *giving* and direction *following*.
          Oh…lil’ indie can pound sand at this point… in my book. KIDDING ! I still like Fenn’s answer on that issue…thanks for answering for me…or something similar.

          • Ken & Seeker,

            I think most searchers are still living in the past with the comments from F about little indie or only finding four clues. Ya all have put up a road road block for your selves and completely missing something that F said Feb 4, 2018. He had a gut feeling that it may be found that year. Now why in the world would he say something like that if no one was even close? A person or more than one person may have told F where they were going to search that had prompted his gut feeling statement.

            Also his comments in regards to 500′ and 200′ indicates strongly that searchers had gone beyond just four clues, but may have messed up with not recognizing the blaze. He made the remarks of being 500′ to 200′ from the chest, is because those searchers told him where they are going to search or had searched.

            All in all, IMVHO the close distance to the chest and F’s gut feeling, I can only determine that there are searchers that were very, very close to finding the chest and had proceeded much further than just 4 clues otherwise they wouldn’t have gotten as close to 200′.

            Folks should have been hyperventilating with those facts instead of hanging back to only 4 clues found. What folks should have been doing, is to look back at other places they have previously dismissed and wrote F about within the time line of those statements that were made and worked harder to find the chest.

            Looking at the past is fine, but continually living it and not moving forward for me is completely wrong IMO.

            Just Say’n

          • CharlieM,

            What year did the 500′ comment come out? How about the 200 footer? When did the first four clues and the idea the chest would be found sooner than expected comment? How about the 2012-13ish searcher[s] comment, at the book signing, who were so close the would faint … was that action of the searcher done in 2013 or maybe 2010 – 11?

            Just because we hear about things from fenn doesn’t mean we know when they took place. Most of those comments knowledge could have happen in 2010 for all we know, only mentioned by fenn years later.
            It took him many years and lots of question later, for him the tell of his process when he hid the chest… two trips, in one afternoon, same route, [ not of which were told of in the same year ]
            It took him 8 years to finally say he followed the clues when he hid the chest.

            But it is information we have to work with… right?
            As an investigator you should know that the timeline of information is only factual if “we know” ‘exactly’ when it happened… and only one person knows the answer for that. You can work off the gut feeling comment all ya like, but apparently it didn’t pan out… but other comments over the years have implied the same.. some I stated above.

            The biggest fact we to know… is those searcher didn’t know much at all… That fact come from fenn himself.

        • Seeker,
          Yes.
          ED

          PS. (To your last question.) How old is that, “comment about the first four clues?” Folks fail to affix -time stamps- on ff hints/comments and that tends to make accurate comments, inaccurate over time.

          • Folks should know when the comment came out ED. But do we really know when the action of the searcher took place?
            I highly dounbt fennis going to get an e-mail or chat with a searcher and the net day put it out for all to see… I only ‘know’ of one time that happen… WW’sH is not a dam dam.

          • Seeker,
            Never mind the reply. Comments are cross-posting and I get your drift.

          • Seeker – Wouldn’t it be smart for a searcher to look back beyond the date F made comments to look to see if they missed something? Of course. The time line is before F made those comments, how far one want’s to go back is up to the searcher for their theories. (for those that were searching prior to when each comment was made.)

            To ask when, where or why a searcher was as close to 200′ from the chest is mute, unless one thinks they are the searcher. F mentioned 200′ that is all that matters.

            Just Say’n

          • Yep ED, that happens a lot…

            CharlieM,
            I’m not talking about searchers who think the ATF’s are about them and such… It really doesn’t matter to me when the comments, interviews, Q&As etc. came out.
            We still need to see the truth within them [ that alone can be difficult ] But as more and more ATF’s become available over the years, they become more and more a good check and balance, when thinking about the search, clues etc.

            Think of it like the TV show “Name that Tune” the more notes we hear, the more certain we can get the title to the song correct.
            Did I just age myself?

          • ATF’s can be a good tool for “checks and balances” as long as the ATF itself is understood and applied correctly. A correct line of thinking can be hoodwinked via an incorrect interpretation and application of an ATF. IMO.

  77. I don’t think that “not far but to far to walk” is a clue, because it doesn’t tell us anything specific (an actual distance), I think HOB is the third clue.

    • Agreed James,
      Why title your book after a clue in the poem?
      Doesn’t make any sense to me.

    • James,
      I think it helps explain an idea of what not to do.

      I mean, I tried to figure out an unknown distance just like everyone else, but if you read ” but too far to walk ” as a none clue… I think you might screw up a very important thought process or two.
      Fenn’s title is about memoirs… time past.
      Can the line relate to time, maybe of time past. Or maybe of time in the future relating to “the end is ever draw nigh” the end is nearing, line of thinking.
      Does it tell us Don’t Walk… Don’t even go/ leave where you are at.
      Delegating it a none clue doesn’t raise ideas, just because you want it to be of a distance… imo, It kills those ideas before they have a chance to manifest.

      What happen to analyzing the WhatIFs?

      • Hi Seeker, Mr. Fenn’s “why didn’t I think of that ” comment, suggests to me that the answers to the clues are more in our face, rather than buried deeply in the poem. Maybe the answers to the clues will turn out to be nothing more than a figment of our imagination, after all?

      • I think there should be a page for the “What Ifs”.
        You won’t find me commenting there because of infinity but may be good for others.

    • James,

      No far, but to far to walk, if it is not a clue then it’s one really important hint. This clue is why the 500′ & 200′ marks were established and not understanding this clue the chest has not been found. I’m guessing those searchers gauged that distance much further down that “canyon down” then the where the put in place is. Although the 200′ mark statement puts one on that put in trail at one of three places I believe, that might have been mentioned to Forrest. Those are npuyc creek (most likely), heavy loads or water high. So that brings another question why start up that no place for the meek trail and not continue it up. Was it for not understanding one of those clues? Or just seeing what’s up the trail with just a quick check, because they had another area of search? (Most likely this reason).

      Remember when the comment of 500′ first came out Forrest said “people” have been within 500′ of the treasure not searchers. So that tells me the mark at that 500′ distance puts one on the main canyon down trail. This is a well established trail and goes for quite a distance and has quite a few possibilities that can be determined as put in places along it. So that’s where “not far” comes into place. I say this a clue imo.

      Good luck in your thoughts and search area.

      Bur

    • You are seeing,James, this peace of the puzzle IMO can either be add to the end of clue# 2 or to the beginning of clue# 3, your choice. This is only attended to show is there is a gap inbetween clues 1 & 2 and the rest of the clues 3456789. Clues 1&2 IMO are at the beginning of a canyon ( up high for us to locate), then there will be a few miles we will have to drive in the canyon down deep ( out of sight ) before locating clue 3. IMO, happy day!!!

  78. Good thots Ken & Seeker but what if the point is we are not starting at the correct location? We may have gotten “somewhere” and are close – but it’s kinda like the game of horseshoes. Close doesn’t count.

  79. If anybody remembers which Scrapbook has the story of that little painting of a young girl that FF re-named Gabriella, I would appreciate the info. I would like to reread it and I cant find it. Thx.

  80. Can anyone tell me where or when FF said the solutions to the clues were located within the Rocky Mountain region? Is it possible that the solutions could be outside this area but then would need to be “married” to an appropriate place that does fall in the Rockies.

    How you “marry” them up would create yet another puzzle. Oh my……..

    • www.

      To the best of my knowledge, and all that I can find is that Forrest has said that the treasure is hidden in the Rocky Mountains – period. It is up to each searcher to figure out the clues. All may be within the Rocky Mountains – some may not. You decide – JDA

    • I don’t think it matters much what Fenn said about it. Just go with it if you like it.

      • IMO the distance from the start to the end could be less than a third of a mile.
        — MK

        • That doesn’t explain: Not far, but too far to walk.
          I think a third mile is easy to walk and you are one of many that ignore this line in the poem at face value.

          • Hi Jake,
            Some searchers posted the idea that “Too far to walk” means that there is no direct passage from where you are standing to where you want to go, the destination. Of course you can walk or drive from WWWH to CD, but there are no direct beeline walkway between them. That’s where my thought is directing me.
            — MK

          • I do not think that this is what it means, but if you look up “far” it has some surprising meanings like “Deadly” and “Dangerous. So Not far, but too far to walk” could mean – “Not deadly, but too dangerous to walk.”

            Food for thought – JDA

          • Too far to walk means just what it says as the primary definition of those words and all the words in the poem have to meet the primary definition first and then you can use other meanings but they all have to fit without disrupting the flow of the poem.

            Not far, but too far to walk means it shouldn’t be walked because it’s a far distance and shouldn’t be confused with not going there or there is no direct passage because it doesn’t say that.

            If “far” means “dangerous” or “deadly” this is what that line would look like:
            Not dangerous or deadly, but too dangerous or deadly to walk.
            Still means the same thing. Don’t walk!!!
            And if you figure out HOB and want to reverse engineer back to WWWH, then get some “gas” money for your internal combustion engine to take you there because it’s too far to walk.
            Drive, fly, pedal, snowmachine, horseback, camelback, mule, raft. boat.
            Simplify if you can.
            IMO

          • Furthermore, if “far” means “deadly” JDA.
            It is likely that if you didn’t figure out this line correctly, and did walk in this deadly place then you may die because it’s a dangerous place according to your obscure definition.
            That doesn’t jive with some of the things Fenn said.
            Why would Fenn lead all these people to a deadly place???

            But too dangerous or deadly to walk doesn’t make any sense.
            That’s what happens when you plug it in and play it forward in my mind.

          • Jake;

            Read my first line: “I do not think that this is what it means,”… Forrest has said that it is not in a dangerous place, so heed the warning – Not deadly, but too dangerous to walk (enter into this area) – Safety First – JDA

          • JDA: “Forrest has said that it is not in a dangerous place, so heed the warning”

            Ahh, you’re contradicting yourself.
            Why would we have to heed a warning if the place is not dangerous?
            Nevermind.

          • Jake;

            As I said twice now, I do not believe that this is the answer to NFBTFTW – BUT, it IS a possible answer.

            If it IS an answer heed the advice and do NOT walk – take some other form of transportation, like a car, or just do a visual search. Read and heed. IF it is a valid interpretation. No contradiction Jake – JDA

  81. Hey, where are all the trees? Somebody stole them all and used em to make funny books and if we don’t get em back soon the birds won’t have a place to nest, but watch the message at 9 min in on this, just the way I see the poem and the hints, since I probably don’t actually understand a clue.

    https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DLMw_hoQoUw

    Even a kid has an advantage, all it takes is one solid hint to make the difference, and see the poem in a whole new way. I assure you this is not a waste of time, but an understanding of TIME. You must be wise to understand time it is blazing past you like an elephant.

    TT

  82. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=33VE29RxtSk

    How do we describe an Apple tree gone bad? Will all of the Rockies go the way of the towns and cities? What we need is a smart pill to become wise and understand time, see the forrest for the trees in his imagination it is all there in the poem. I think someone is very near the solve , just IMHO.

    TT

  83. Has anybody given thought to the quote on the French soldiers gravestone as geographical locations? For instance, forgive a sinner- as an area that is land locked, enclosed, surrounded. Smile- as the marvel gaze, area of beauty. And lastly the homely girl- is one who is average, top of a bell curve, plateau.

    • Sorry John – My thoughts have never run in that direction – but good thinkin – One never knows what might be truth until it is found – Good luck to Ya – JDA

    • Hi John edo,

      Interesting that you mentioned the word “smile” in your comment above.

      I was just researching that word this morning and on Tarryscant, Forrest has used that word more than 25 times. He’s also used the word “grin” at least 10 times in addition to the many mentions of teeth, toothbrushes, etc. Forrest does seem to use the word “smile” a lot.

      My research this morning, was an effort to see if there was any significance in regards to that word. I’m still working on that.

      I’ll also add that facial features are sometimes used to describe some geographic and/or environmental type places. For example: the face of a cliff, mouth of a river, teeth of the Rockies, eye of the storm, etc.

      Now that I think about it, other body parts are used as well such as: toe of the slope, leg of the journey, knee deep, etc.

      Anyways, just a few thoughts from my “smile” research this morning.

      Don’t know if that helps or not but Good luck to you.

      All IMO,
      SRW

  84. Interesting concept.
    Hard to wrap my head around landmark features akin to people attributes. Homely girl being as a plateau? Hmmm. Might take me a while to catch up. Thanks for the kickstart tho.
    🙂

    • Smokeybaer;

      I agree – Homely girl and plateau – Sorry does not compute for me. I think that a plateau or mesa is one of the most beautiful landscapes that there is. I have an elongated picture of a plateau in my search area that I just love – SOOO pretty!!
      This plateau relates to one of my clues, but that is not the only reason I like it – I just like the beauty of it – Homely??? I think not – Just how I see it – JDA

      • Hey JDA and other long time searchers–what bothers me is why Forrest stated, “you will find no mildew inside the chest” . I looked up mildew formation and it can form in temperatures from 32 degress up to 140 degress . So how does mildew not form on the wood inside the chest when he said he knows the chest is wet ? Would not the moisture get in thru the keyhole or lid gaps?

        • Hi Arnold;

          Here is the answer to your question:

          Preventing the growth of mildew requires a balance between moisture and temperature either in such a way that minimal moisture is available in the air and the air temperature is low enough to inhibit growth (at or below 70 °F (21 °C) without causing condensation to occur, or by in such a way that warmer air temperatures, without an actual change in the amount of water vapor in that air, is by its nature “drier” (has a lower relative humidity) than cooler air and will tend to inhibit mildew growth in this way. Warm temperatures coupled with high relative humidity set the stage for mildew growth.

          Pay close attention to this line: “and the air temperature is low enough to inhibit growth (at or below 70 °F”

          If, as Forrest has said, the treasure (Indulgence) is wet, it is unlikely that its temperature is warmer than 70 degrees.

          Note last sentence – “Warm temperatures coupled with high relative humidity set the stage for mildew growth.” So, if the temperature is always below 70 degrees, mildew will not grow.

          This seems to answer your question – JDA

          • JDA,

            I thought “Mildew” was his hat? And we know that hat is not in the chest because some searchers have seen it I think at one of the Fennboree’s and or his house too.

            Oh did I say something wrong??? Lol just having a fun day.

            Bur

          • OOPS – You are right Bur – How dumb of me to think that Arnold was talkin about the white stuff – 🙂 JDA

        • Bronze has copper, which inhibits mold/mildew (watercolor painters sometimes put pennies in their palette to keep mold from growing in wet paint in humid environments).

          Copper’s also used for water pipes in plumbing.

          • Thanks JDA and J A Kraven for the input as to why the chest would not contain mildew.

          • I believe f. said logically speaking the chest is wet.
            Do not think he meant literraly.
            Gotta love f.
            There is a non literal interpretation of this statement..

          • MWG;

            I believe Forrest said physics, not logic. Here is the quote:

            “Mr. Fenn,
            In your interview with New Mexico True Stories, you mentioned that you know that the treasure is wet. I checked out the date of that interview and it looks like you said that in a February, which could mean that you knew that it had snowed or rained at the site of the treasure chest, or simply because of higher water.
            Now we are in mid-summer, and if we assume that no storms have passed through recently, would you know that the treasure is wet now? ~Thanks, B
            Yes B, physics tells me the treasure is wet”. f JDA

  85. Optimum Prime in the Summertime.

    I was thinking (that explains the burning smell) about Forrest hiding the Treasure in Summertime and where he started his Journey that day. I guess there isn’t any conclusive evidence that explains if Forrest in fact left from his home in Santa Fe that Lovely Summer Morning but what if he did? Why do I think it was a Lovely Summer Morning? Well, I believe, IMO, that Forrest wanted an Optimum Experience that day and how could anyone who is about to start a Voyage so Magnificent settle for anything less.

    It was planned, every detail, every thought processed for years. The weather channel was on, watching the area for Indulgences beckoning. The skies looked good, not any precipitation in sight. This was it. The time has come.

    Forrest casually packed his car with his fortune and a small cooler filled with Dr peppers and Cheetos. He told Peggy he had some errands to run and off he went. He stopped by the gas station and topped his tank and Northward he was bound.

    It’s happening, this Dream which was burning inside him for so long is finally coming to fruition. There is no turning back now.

    The radio was on, could it have been A Country Western station the Chauffeur of Dreams was listening to? I’ll put my money on some of that. Nothin nicer than strollin down a road with Chris Stapleton and the Traveller whisperin thru your speakers.

    Along the road, somewhere, only he knows. Passing unsuspecting faces one by one. The wheels turning and the gas gauge going down. Up ahead, a respite, a stretch of the legs, only he knows. How far will he go, only he knows. Will he be back by Nightfall, only he knows.

    Did he have a cellphone with him? Did he take any calls while he was driving? Did a family member or friend try to contact him that day? Can someone in law enforcement Please try to triangulate his movements already? I mean, come on! 🙂

    Here it comes, the place to stop his car is just ahead. He can see it thru the windshield, the place where Dreams come true. Even at the age of 79 or 80 he springs from the car. The motivation that pushed him for so long is transitioning into accomplishment. There can be no other satisfaction. Just gotta walk to the spot now, thinking to himself, “Ok, I’ll make one trip and then walk back here to reload my backpack, maybe I’ll take a Dr Pepper with me on second trip and enjoy it at the Treasure location.”

    Only he knows.

    • Nicely stated Pauley T.

      It would have been great to have been a fly there in the car with Forrest. Watching the scenery go by. How many miles? How much time elapsed? Questions that only Forrest can answer. We all can guess, but only Forrest knows – and he aint talkin – JDA

      • Hi JDA
        You asked how many miles?answer nfbtftw
        How much time elapsed ? answer one after noon.
        And he ain’t talkin OOOOH BUT HE IS.
        Two people can keep a secret if one of them is
        Dead.Forrest is talkin ,a lot of you are not listen.
        I am the fly on his hat.
        I couldn’t help it JDA haven a little fun.
        Clint

        • Clint

          So, you’re listening too huh?
          Better hurry now, the other Bunny’s may be faster than you! 🙂

      • JDA
        Imagination is such a wonderful thing.
        And in this case, I believe imagination is A key.
        Also, Forrest may not be talkin right now, but he sure has spoken in the past.

        “Some of his words have calluses on them”

        Could the WORDS that Forrest repeated lead someone to the Treasure?

        • That sure would be nice wouldn’t it? I suspect that Forrest is ready for it to end, even though he has said that it is out of his hands – My ears are always cocked to hear what just might be in the wind – 🙂 – JDA

  86. If you were to get coordinates from a source chase related, and when you got to those coordinates, something was actually there, would this give you confidence, or, just be a coincidence?
    Let’s say the thing you found there looked odd, staged, whatever, but it fit the poem at that point, how would you feel about it being chase related?
    Let’s say that the spot, that you found coordinates too, which yielded something, is basically the “blaze”, would you write it up as coincidence, or, would you see it for what it is?
    I find it hard to believe that if something within f’s stories/book has yielded some coordinates, and when you got to those coordinates, something was actually there, to be just coincidence. It may very well be, but how would you feel if this happened to you, and you arrived at the spot, and viola, the blaze. Hidden and camouflaged? Just the fact that you could have predicted that something would be there, considering the entire Rockies, seems to tip the scales in the direction of confidence, and away from coincidence. Especially if that would be the forth clue, and a picture of the area was sent to f, but the explanation of the find left doubt. Would make f think somebody may have the forth clue, but he was not sure. Would that make his comment also coincidence, or would it give you more confidence? I don’t know, I try not to read into things too much, but you decide:
    https://ibb.co/gjJ3Cm
    Actually have the coordinates to a camp site, that has the burnt wood outside the pit. Where there is a rock with something standing and the sun in the corner. Which is shaped like a 97, which can fit “marvel gaze”. And that has a stick in the shape of a “Y”, 7′ long, that makes up part of the “7”. It’s even more interesting if you can figure out what and where the blaze is in the pic. Who knows, probably all just coincidence anyway…:)

  87. Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead.

    This quote from Forrest has always peeked my curiosity.

    I’ve often wondered if he found the burial (death site) site of an old warrior. The old warrior at the time of his death, being of no help to his people, left his tribe to go to his special hunting grounds (special place) to died, just as Forrest had planned to do before he got well.

    Two people can keep a secret if one of them is dead.

    No closer to the chest, just a thought.

    • I’ve had similar thoughts once upon a while, Jim. My own thoughts lean more towards a “hideout” or something similar that clearly has been utilized by people in the past and that FF was lucky enough to discover in his wanderings. That person/people are long gone from that spot so FF is currently the only one who holds the secret. The blaze could collectively consist of the “signs” that the long-gone person/people left behind in that place, below which FF has placed Indulgence since we are told IYHBWAFTB, LQDYQTC. Only taking the chest from that secret place and leaving the other “relics” undisturbed may be FF’s intent by JTTCAGIP.

      Food for thought.

  88. Maybe others thought about this also , dunno.
    Began wwwh , take it in canyon down , put in below home of brown.
    Would that make wwwh and hob.the same exact location?.
    Start at wwh , take canyon down , automatically put you below wwh and possibly hob. Unless hob is a secondary location go past hob to the put in.
    IMO The NFBTFTW.is relating to a put in and not hob.

    Just thoughts.
    MWG.

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