Where Warm Waters Halt…

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This is for a discussion about Where Warm Waters Halt. We’ve all got ideas that didn’t work out or we are willing to share…I think we can give folks just starting out some ideas for the kinds of places that might just be the place Where Warm Waters Halt…or not!

Let the discussion continue…

dal…

682 thoughts on “Where Warm Waters Halt…

    • I agree on the concept that warm waters halting is related to fly fishing…. Forest loved his fishing…. especially along the Madison…… I feel that those waters are in the general West Yellowstone region …..

  1. It still doesn’t help identify where specifically warm waters halt, what that means. Something early in the poem must hint at how to get that specific identity down pat. This area is special to Fenn, it can’t just be some place he loved to go fish. It’s more likely a place where he was exploring and found one spot that had special significance for him. It’s a combination of things special to him. I’m guessing it has to be near an ancient Pueblo or cliff dwelling site, the scenery spectacular, but enough out of the way most people don’t travel through there. It has the variety of a woodland valley, picturesque mountains, canyons, waterfalls, rivers and streams and hot springs. I keep thinking the Yellowstone area is the least likely place for this.

    • Sometimes the best hiding place is right out in the open !!!! For example… I often do analysis of people’s behaviors and actions during the course of their routine day …… I often put money on the ground right in the middle of a crowded area ….. just to see if anyone notices …. I cannot tell you how often I place a quarter , a Dime, and one dollar bill on the sidewalk only to have everyone walking right on by it without even noticing…… literally hundreds of pedestrians will walk right past the money on the ground ….. it’s amazing that so many people are oblivious to what’s around them because they are so wrapped up in what they are doing at the time ….. remember that Forest stated that one could ride a bike to where the chest is located….. and he stated that it is not where an 80 plus year old man could not easily go ….. also stated that he made two trips in one day to place the chest and it’s contents….. so it cannot be that far off the beaten path so to speak

  2. WWWH consists of 4 words or 4 parts, and has perfect rectangular symmetry, just as in Stanza 1 hints, IMO the only way trout survive in the wild is directly related to these 4 words, without the cold no fish will survive. Fish will make it worth the cold, WWWH defines the regulation in one of the 4 RCM states, but only one. However they all come into play in the correct solve IMO.

    Balanced construction of an Architecture Design requires Symmetry, the only way to express perfect symmerty IMO with words is using mathematics, for example a circle has 360 degrees, that divides it into perfect sections, and is therefore most likely the way of this poem, just as geography is divided using this method, building, navigation and even time use this mathematical certainty.

    I am certain that this is the case, and all the tangents come from the Blaze which has taken me a long time to understand, how else can we walk to within a few feet?

    The searching community is full of their own belief of the place where Indulgence rests, but it is going to be “found” using wise math; Oddly by time and triangulation brought by degrees in the stars that we will “find” the Blaze.

    Polaris is nothing without Zero. See you at Fennboree S 019.

    TT

    • Tom Terrific – Sirius is brighter. But Polaris is a good star to follow, if you are riding a backwards bike at night, on the single track trail that follows the YNP boundary, from the Fennhaven Cabins to my reverse S blaze at Baker’S Hole. Was that Forrest’s “True North”, on a hot Summer night, to bathe and swim?

      https://www.space.com/15567-north-star-polaris.html

      “As above, So below”

      Triangulation and Navigation.

      What did Leonardo da Vinci write about time and a river?

      Love, Lisa Cesari – Descendant of Julius Caesar

    • hmmm TT …. sounds like Vitruvian man again. (The blaze is at the belly button.)

      Funny how imagination rides our dendrons and axons, leaping synaptic gaps… like young witches zooming around a quidditch field on broom-tanrgents. My head hurts.

      • OS2, in a word, umbilically, which connects in concept to the “Red Shoes” remember, there is no place like home, except the womb, so we need to get back in the correct box, where its comfortable, the place where contentment abides. WWWH

        TT

        • Ahhh…. if only to be content had been his goal (pg 4).

          Hi, TT, I doubt the backward bike is ‘all about numbers’ — I think its about reversing learned habits. It isn’t difficult once you accept the mechanics intellectually. Practice from your armchair… drive it into the dining room (turn right) by making your arms turn left. Drive it to the front door (turn left) by making your arms turn right. A few times will teach your arms to work opposite to your eyes. It’s no harder than learning to drive in a country where the driving lanes are switched. People who are rigid thinkers should practice indecision. It’s the key to flexibility. The ansers say honk, honk… (that’s for Lisa).

          Then again, maybe associating 66 links to highway #285 is a statement about dyslexia.

        • I don’t imagine that any of this will help someone find the TC, but
          thank you for posting. As always, in my opinion.

    • I think it has to do with a location, but I also don’t see how you can uniquely identify a location with the poem itself. I suggest carefully reading everything Forrest has said about the first clue. Think for yourself and be careful not to use a hunch about where it is. You can always move on to the next clue. I didn’t find anything Forrest said where that clue must be cracked to move on. It may be a matter of narrowing the area down before you’re able to nail down a specific WWWH. Brown appears to be a specific person important to Forrest and the home of Brown a specific place. Where to put in below (south) can be anywhere along the same line of latitude of HOB so be open minded to its location. Pay your dues and look up anything in TTOTC you’re not certain about. Forrest says good resources are TTOTC and Google Earth and/or a good map. Those are examples and not intended to be an exhaustive list. Head to the library, grab the thickest dictionary and thesaurus you can find and sit in the encyclopedia section. You don’t need a degree in anything, but you can’t get smart without reading. Last, be safe! You’re responsible for your own behavior. Good Luck. All just my opinion, of course.

      • Dave,
        You say “I also don’t see how you can uniquely identify a location with the poem itself”. Forrest said “I suggest you go to the poem in the book and read it a few times. All of the necessary clues are there” (5/7/16). So unless this is a guessing game there must be at least one uniquely identified location in the poem. I think it’s in the first stanza.

        Reading everything that Forrest has said will help with figuring out where not to search, and how not to approach the chase. But it won’t help you find the treasure. Reading the poem a few thousand times might. All IMO.

      • So many people being so extremely philosophical on this whole chest topic…… Bottom line if anyone knows Forest …. the warm waters halt at his favorite bathing hole “Fire Hole”….. he has stated over and over and over that Fire Hole was his “Go To” spot !!! and that he rode his bike there….. he also clearly states that one could ride a bike to where the chest is located !!! How would he know this if he did not do it himself ??? I think he discovered this place as a boy while making his round trip rides to the Fire Hole bathing spot …… also put in below the Home of Brown most likely refers to a location along the Madison river where the Brown Trout start at ……

        • Pauley T: may not be quite the proof you’re looking for, but FGM #2 (10/2/2012) at least mentions the possibility (though it could be in jest) in response to someone’s offer to drive Forrest out to where he wants to die: “I am a very simple person and you want me to have copious meetings with lawyers, preachers, undertakers and your family. What is wrong with me just riding my bike out there and throwing it in the “water high” when I am through with it?”

          Personally, I’m confident no bicycle was involved in the hiding of the chest, and that it would actually be a hindrance to have attempted to use one.

    • A New Way of Thinking, agreed, of course it has everything to do with Geography, but do not forget TIME, without timing the blaze may not be understood IMO.

      IF one understood how we must change, like the backward bike https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MFzDaBzBlL0

      If our imaginations would run along the lines of Forrest when he describes the Waterfall episode from “My War for Me” perhaps the blaze would be visible, and we would not need Google Earth to confirm it’s location.

      The point of all this is, and some may criticize my BOLDNESS, but I know where WWWH in a new dimension, thanks ff

      TT

      • My question would be why would ff make the statement about the bike while everyone is looking for a geographic location to start. Sounds to me that wwwh is a metaphor for something that has nothing to do with water. Either way looking at a water source does not seem to be working. It has been tried by thousands.

        BDM

        • A New Way of Thinking, The backward bike is all about the numbers, and to have a correct solve IMHO it is all about the #’s in the purest geographical locations, does anyone remember the ff quip…at least 66,000 links north of SF, NM?

          We all know that distance today is 8.25 miles but how many will see it as 285?

          That comes into focus when you think you know WWWH
          TT

          • Tom Terrific – Read the detailed and important “Note” about Forrest as Land Surveyor at the bottom of Dal’s Cheat Sheet:

            https://dalneitzel.com/cheat-sheet/

            Wondering if there are telephone or power poles, along that straight-forward-North single track backwards bike trail, that connects the old Fennhaven Cabins to the bottom of my S blaze at Baker’S Hole?

            Hmmmm…

            North of Santa Fe…

            In the Rocky Mountains…
            At least 8.25 Miles…

            Big S-mile.

            IMO.

          • I love the backwards bike video, want to read the book he recommended but could not locate the link.
            The video reinforces the ideal of Imagination is better than knowledge.

            The video also explains why it is difficult for us to break habits like smoking. I.E smoking is a learned habit.

            If someone locates the link for the ebook plz post. Tyvm

  3. I think we have to start off with the big picture and then work our way to a smaller and smaller area. There has to be something which narrows it down to a large section of the Rocky Mtns. Maybe we need to be thinking of all of Yellowstone’s geothermal features. The waters come out of the ground hot and steam rises and stats to cool as it rises. So at some point the hot waters become warm waters (up in the air). So we begin above the ground with an overview of Yellowstone. But there has to be something that narrows it down further. Forrest used alliteration with WWW, so maybe the W is referring to the West entrance and that is where we begin. If we view from above, then take it in May mean take in the view of the canyon down (Madison Canyon) before we literally take the West entrance in.

    • So.. I’m new to this but I don’t think new searches are necessary. A few have already came within a few 100 feet of the treasure. I think it would be important to research searches in the summer of 2013. Prior to his book interview

    • CrazyFox – Still thinking of that William WordsWortH poem Paul recites with his Preacher Father in “A River Runs Through It”. And this quote, which reminds me of that “Little Gidding” reference to Earth and the River:

      “Eventually, all things merge into one, and a river runs through it. The river was cut by the world’s great flood and runs over rocks from the basement of time. On some of those rocks are timeless raindrops. Under the rocks are the words, and some of the words are theirs. I am haunted by waters.”
      – Norman Maclean, A River Runs Through It

  4. I wanted to share something for discussion. The solve I am currently trying to disprove is very simple and follows the poem very closely. I have used only the poem, some maps, and a lot of pondering for this solve. I bought the book about 12 years ago, have read it a handful of times, then started this treasure hunt as a hobby about 3 years ago. Honestly, I’m in it for the money but it is still only a hobby/pastime and I don’t take it very seriously. I have never had BOTG and I’ve disproven about 15 of my own solves, followed a lot of rabbit holes, and learned a lot of interesting history in the process. I simplified my approach over time and made it a rule that all clues would have to be obvious and simple to locate given the correct starting point. For me, figuring out WWWH took quite a long time but ended up being very obvious and simple. I am now at a point where I am going to have to go somewhere to disprove this solve. The thing I am sharing for discussion is that my WWWH is nowhere near Santa Fe and not even on the map in TFTW. Does WWWH have to be in near proximity to the chest? I don’t believe so but would appreciate your thoughts.

    • I have thought all along that the starting point is outside of the map. You might be on to something!!!

      BDM

      • Good thinking New Way.. in my opinion one of the few Wwwh is for sure outside the map. Look at a well drill map for a hint to finding . Many WwwH combine to point out THE won WwwH . 9×9=81 L-IS-TEN 10X10 = looK IMO

    • *** *** *** ***
      Michael M’land wondered – “Are the clues necessarily in near proximity to each other or could they be spread out over hundreds or thousands of miles?Does WWWH have to be in near proximity to the chest? I don’t believe so but would appreciate your thoughts.”
      *** *** *** ***

      I doubt there’s more than 10 ground-travel-miles between the first location and the end. And anymore I always play with an even smaller “map” area in mind and under foot.

      The first solution I actually walked (more than once) was based on the poem describing a river trip that accurately described a way to get to the chest, but actually involved both the hider (ff) and the seeker getting to the same place a different way, all on dry land by wheel and boot.

      The clues laid out, stretch by stretch, a map of a route rafting down a particular river, then beaching the raft and hiking on foot a mile or so up a particular tributary creek (that you couldn’t “paddle up”). A long trip that would actually take several days by raft.

      The way to actually get there (both to hide and to retrieve the McGuffin) was to drive to the top of that tributary creek (in Utah) and hike a little way down it into Colorado, to the point where you’d meet the hypothetical rafter hiking up the creek. Sneaky!

      Then came ff comments about “The clues should be followed in order . . . there’s no other way to my knowlege” and “I did follow the clues in the poem when I hid the treasure chest.”

      Followed for the hat trick by “Once you hid the treasure, did you take the exact same route in reverse to return to your car?” – “Yes I did, it was the most direct route.” f

      Add ff’s repeated admonitions (repeated more and more frequently over time) that a searcher has to begin at the first clue, has to have Where Warm Waters Halt.

      So Difficulty 1 – if, say, the Great Divide Basin/Red Desert is your WWWH, but you’re gonna search 100 miles away, why do you *have* to start (either physically or even just theoretically or cartographically) at the Great Divide Basin?

      Then add the relationship between ‘the first 2 clues’ and ‘200-500 ft’ in numerous comments going all the way back to early 2013, if not earlier. Even if those ‘searchers’ themselves were a bit of hyperbolic “yes you can!” encouragement to the field, I think that the relationship ff described between first 2 clues and distance would still have to be accurate.

      So. People can, and have, wiggled in and out, around and between those points that define the size of my field(s) of play, but those are my thoughts, as requested. And that’s the size field I’ve hunted since the winter of ’16/17′ (I think).

      I haven’t seen many (that I can recall) that posit a distance of hundreds of miles; my response to the idea is simply that “I don’t see how it could work.”

      There’s only so much clue-space in the poem; I can’t think of how a WWWH location could point or lead a searcher to a location a great many miles away.

      JAKe

      • Jake, the other day while walking here in a small resort town in Vermont, I was thinking about where warm waters halts and I went back to thinking about all the ideas related to it. I have read about so far in blogs like this one. I came back to the most obvious clue as to where warm waters halts, then I came to realize a false reason for excluding it. That was the aha! moment that made me feel that, perhaps the clues are that simple and easy, once one is wise enough to just follow the most completely logical steps in solving the poem. Everything I have read about Forest Fenn’s talks about, at least this part of the poem makes sense now. One other thing Fenn said about the poem, is there is a lot of work in it. One has to explore stated detailed maps and all the clues, how they are phrased and I’m guessing make sure one has eliminated all possibilities, however improbably, that what’s left is the answer. The beauty of that is, as a metaphor the same is true of love, when we have eliminated all that love is not, then we will have found what love truly is.

      • I’m with you in thinking that he didn’t hid it over 100s of miles. I’m also with you in thinking that it’s a boat trip down a river or some waterways.
        Where Fenn makes it vague is when he said he took the same route to hide the treasure. If I were hiding a million $ + chest of my own treasures, which I couldn’t go to for many years without being watched, I would definately take one last trip to see the route one last time, maybe check for accuracy with the poem, then hide the treasure. Did he need to do that? He never said that. He just said he took the route that time. When he says the clues should be followed in order, he means for us. He has said that someone who knows exactly where it is could go directly to it.
        Did he follow the same route back to his car after hiding the treasure? Of course, why not? He does NOT say: “I had to go back all the way to WWWH after”, he simply walked back to his car. From “nigh” it’s only “paddle up your creek” and HLWH then the blaze (IMO maybe 20-30 mins). I don’t see why he would take any other route.

  5. Warm water halts at the bank of the Stream or the edge of the pond where it meets the ground the next step is to make sure you have a canyon to go down

  6. Dal, I wanted to make a request. The next time you speak with Forrest, would you mind sharing that a searcher on your blog (me) is going to take his wife and couple of children with him for TTOTC BOTG. We are going to pack sandwiches and flashlights and hope to have lunch together at the blaze. I hope he gets a chuckle out of this but I would also love to know his response. If he wants to know why, please tell him I said, isn’t it obvious? We want to meet him before he’s gone.

    • ?
      “(me) is going to take his wife and couple of children with him for TTOTC BOTG.”
      Maybe your intentions are good but I question your motive and tact.
      “I’m in it for the money”

    • Hi Michael Moreland
      I know wwwsh is in the search area and on map in the tftw
      book last page it just don’t show it.a good topography
      will show it.you just got to know how to find it.

    • The more I read your comment Michael Moreland, the more I don’t like it and the more I’m creeped out about it.
      I don’t care about the repercussions I get from what I have said here now.
      I hope you’re just bad at explaining yourself in typed words.
      I’m not chuckling.

        • Don’t sweat it Michael,
          I have a feeling I may have misinterpreted what you were trying to convey. It happens all the time here especially with Fenn.

          • My family and I would like to meet Mr. Fenn before he gets any older, Jake. We will all be together on the search. In another forum on Dal’s sight here, you will see my agreement to the idea of the location being high traffic and family friendly. We will definitely have lunch packed and the kids with us.

            By the way, another person posted a link to the map I once mentioned. Mine is in the 1890 Rand McNally atlas. Their’s is from 1888 but also Rand so they are very similar. The words New Mexico have been removed from the map. I’m positive of this and I believe I know why. It’s not a big clue but it makes a lot of sense why they would do this. You can match it up and actually see where the letters are missing. Not a big deal but worth a look.

          • Yup Michael, I saw the map this morning and commented on it.

            As far as meeting Fenn, I suggest people give him a wide berth as he has probably been inundated with many self invitations, some with nice intentions and others not so nice and I don’t think his wife wants anything to do with searchers for good reason.

            We need to use uncommon sense and logic when our desires outweigh what we think will be good for them or him but only for us.

        • Michael Moreland,

          Why go through Dal or anybody else to tell ff something, when you can do it for yourself? You have his book ttotc, it has his email address, publisher’s page.

          • I’ve read about some of the stupid things searchers have done and wouldn’t visit without an invitation, Jake.

            Charlie, I figure it’s always easier to send a message through a friend. I have written Forrest in the past but he has never responded, which I really didn’t expect given the volume of messages he receives.

          • I guess if you are friends with someone that is friends with Fenn you may be able to get an answer to meet him but I doubt it.
            There’s way too many crazies out there and who do you know to trust?
            I would just go to Bree to meet him.

            Just imagine John Doe emails him and texts him like they are friends but they never met. I would be very leery from any contact by email, in person, or whoever I did not meet or know before. It seems to be human nature.

            I always thought this to be common sense.

            The warm fuzzy feeling waters would halt right there.

          • I agree with what’s being said here. I have often been accused of being crazy myself, especially lately because of this Chase, LOL. But oh so far from “a crazy.” Yeah, showin up uninvited would be weird; Austin and Portland are weird, but not Santa Fe, hahahaha. Yeah for me I won’t be making ‘any’ trips, invited or not, until our family outing in June. And then we are going to look For Sure, but not touch anything.

          • I only commented that I would like to meet the guy someday. I’m not looking for an introduction and I’m not going to show up at his home. I plan on meeting him when I return his turqoise bracelet. 😉

  7. WWWH narrows down considerably where the chest is, but I don’t see it as doubling back. If it’s too far to walk why would it be anywhere more than in the general area of and where to start to the search? I am guessing WWWH is at higher ground than where the chest is. If you have a sold solve and follow the canyon down, I’m guessing you reach a valley floor and the chest is in the woods. But none of this means anything unless one is sure of WWWH. As I go in there, sounds like a canyon, a valley, or a basin. In that kind of area. If home of Brown is Brown’s canyon, then you still have a huge area to explore in. I keep thinking some sort of Alice in Wonderland kind of silly logic is how to find the answer to the clues, but much of the clues seem to be straight forward enough. And I keep thinking Fenn’s claim that even some hick from the sticks or some school boy should be able to figure it out without more than a detailed map and the poem. Another puzzler is the use of the word cold, indicating possibly a high altitude, but could mean once one finds the gold one is free from the cold empty search. That’s the kind of double meaning, I’m looking for where warm waters halt. What is the double meaning for that? One that would indicate a more unique meaning than with so many hot springs. Say the opposite of hot springs, like the springs near Pike’s Peak? They are not hot springs but they are springs.

  8. But Fenn says look for a broader meaning. What would be a broader meaning for WWWH? The whole area of search is loaded with hot springs. Doesn’t make sense. Seems like walking into a brick wall, some place vague and vast.

    • A broader view at wwwh only happens in one place. In human history we have searched and even made rockets to travel millions of miles but even with all our searching we find ourselves back at the same place. Sound familiar? So the only place where wwwh is…………………..EARTH!!!!!!

  9. Good day fellow searchers.
    Imho I do not think wwwh has anything to do with water. The more I think about the more I believe this. In time as I continue my research and dwell on this, I will have the answer I seek.
    Best of luck to all on their searches and explorations.
    And Please be safe!

  10. *** *** *** ***
    Seeker observed yesterday – “Folks from 2012ish have indicated the first ‘two’ clues. (yet none seem to know they did) I find this interesting, as I don’t recall fenn ever saying the first clue was ‘solved’ alone . . . ”
    https://dalneitzel.com/2019/03/25/where-warm-waters-halt-15/#comment-767482
    *** *** *** ***

    Interesting? I can’t recall many (or any?) searchers saying they’d solved WWWH without a canyon down to go with it. Who’d say so, or would put their boots on without it? Or would, as ff says how he knows 2 clues have been solved, “tell [ff] where they’d been” if all they had was the first clue.

    “I’ve got the first clue nailed for certains, but for the life of me I can’t find a canyon to go with it. Can I get some help here?”

    re “first clue alone”

    26 March 2015
    Q – Forrest, you have stated that several searchers correctly identified the first two clues in your poem. Could you tell us how many searchers to your knowledge have correctly identified the first clue correctly? Thanks. ~49 Dollars

    A – “No 49, I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several. I cannot imagine anyone finding the treasure without first identifying the starting point, although many seem to be preoccupied with later clues. To me that’s just expensive folly.” f

    [does “identified” = “solved” to ff here? This is from two years after ff himself publicly identified the first clue *in the poem* as WWWH, so I’d say his “more than several” here solved it, identified the starting point]

    There are many other references to “underestimating the importance of the first clue”, “go back to the first clue”, “if you can’t find the first clue you don’t have anything”, “start with the first clue and follow the others consecutively”, “those who solve the first clue are more than halfway . . . ” etc.

    But in practice nobody solves the first clue without accounting for the second.

    As for “none seem to know they did (solve the first 2 clues)”, I don’t find that surprising either.

    FF often expresses it as ‘they solved the first 2 clues but didn’t know they were so close (200-500 ft)’ instead of ‘they solved the first 2 clues but didn’t know they’d solved the clues.’

    And in any case, why or how could there possibly be something about correctly solving the first 2 clues that somehow assures you you’ve done it? The only positive feedback in this whole enterprise is finding the chest.

    There’s no negative feedback at all, as you could have all nine clues dead to rights, but fondly recall an ex-girlfriend out-of-the-blue right when you’re s’posed to look quickly down, and drift off into a moon-faced reverie instead.

    posted 2 November 2015
    Q – Do [you] expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?

    A – “No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.” ff

    Makes sense to me.

    “Nobody is accidentally gonna stumble on that treasure chest . . . .”

    Maybe not. But the evidence to date suggests that some number of searchers did happen to stumble over WWWH years ago.

    JAKe

    • J A Kraven

      You are doing what so many searchers do, you are jumbling up all the ATF statements and in the process you reach false conclusions. How do I know? I have been re-examining all the ATF statements made by FF in regards to these very topics: what exactly did FF say about searchers “solving” the first two clues, or being at the location of the first clue; and what exactly did FF say about going right past the other clues, and also about being w/in approximately 500 feet and 200 feet. And from the facts (his exact words), what can you conclude and more importantly, what can you not conclude?

      There has been so much paraphrasing and misquoting and fallacious logic all over the internet. Be very very careful. Searchers are spending hours trying to solve this thing based upon misstatements and faulty logic.

      TH

      • THanks for the warning TH. THe internet is indeed a perilous place.

        Sometimes when people think out loud about a little thing, though, I can’t help but think out loud about it along with them. If only there were some place where a guy could do that . . .

    • JAKe… I actually like what I think Seeker was trying to say…or at least the underlying premise.
      It seems rather blatant that the ship has repeatedly run aground at the 2nd and 3rd clue juncture with only, a strong maybe, that someone *may* have figured something out beyond that. In a perfect world/scenario, that does indicate that it is possible to figure out the first clue(singularly) and then qualify the correct second clue to get in the right area…which seems to be also near enough to the treasure chest location to allow some to get to within 200- 500 feet of it…either coming or going. Without using any of Fenn’s comments from events and interviews this would not even come close to being known by anyone. So…I believe the ATF can be used as a tool if one is careful and wise.
      This leaves us with the logic behind what exactly the problem may be. The way I see it is that if the clues in the poem are the map, then the *directions* are not being correctly followed after the second clue.
      “… but before you go, look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions.”
      Also… the way I tend to see your last Fenn quote… “… expect that people will somehow know…” is entirely different than most. If a person takes into account that most of Fenn’s answers and comments are *either/or* choices designed to keep up the mystique…and admittedly answered as posed… that it is not a far stretch to imagine that Fenn is implying that lots of *people* can/have, find/found the first clue unknowingly…. and that *they*(people) will never know that until someone else knowingly finds the treasure and discloses the correct clues. I’m open to seeing it the way most folks do, but it does not compute entirely with me because I think the clues are *definitive* and not a process of elimination scheme. Carry on…

      • Hi Ken,

        I also liked what Seeker was trying to say in his post from the other day. I meant to comment on it but the page was closed before I got around to it.

        Seeker: That was a good post. Some very solid ideas for figuring clues 1 and 2.

        All IMO.
        SRW

      • I wasn’t really arguing, ken, just testing Seeker’s observation that ff did-or-didn’t ever say that anyone had solved the first clue alone.

        Broken down into “first clue” quotes and “first two clues” quotes:

        Summary
        “first two clues” quotes are always about searcher-solved clues, and usually reference a version of that 200-500 ft distance, and often some version of he-knows-because people tell him where they’ve been.

        “first clue” quotes (I provided snippets) are always about solving the clues in order, they’re ff emphasizing that necessary process; they’re *not* about tracking actual searchers’ progress like the “first 2 clues” quotes are.

        So far Seeker’s observation holds up.

        The one quote he missed is the Q&A where ’49 Dollars’ mentions “first 2 clues” and then tries to narrow it down to how many have solved just the first clue. But ff’s “certainly more than several” doesn’t necessarily honor 49 Dollars’ specificity, since 2-clue solvers would also be 1st-clue solvers.

        So nothing earth-shaking, just some observations on Seeker’s observation.

        JAKe

        • no argue…all good. I was just iterating that I liked the underlying premise/s offered up. Everything still wobbling along with the daily orbit…

  11. JAKe, AKA J A Kraven, this does spell out in a sense how people guessed or discovered the correct WWWH yet did not realize the full significance of their find, SO J. A., what is missing or what did they miss?

    “We shall not cease from exploration and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we began and to know the place for the first time.”

    Who ever can best answer that is IMO is way over halfway there. One might argue that they could be within 500′ which is good, but even 500 or 200 does not define the Blaze, past tense. Umbilical in its connection to time and an exact geographic space in the Rockies.

    After the “Lure” opening, Forrest hints that someone may have solved more than 3 clues but not necessarily having them in the correct order. Where does the home of Brown lay in the spectrum of Fenn’s Rainbow? The biggest question of all why why use the past tense for the blaze? Now there is the rub.

    TT

    • Perhaps it’s written as a past tense due to him having written about it and for us as being wise to this in the poem prior to the Blaze line or even before wwwh? Perhaps this element of time ( past present and future) is or has all to do with within the poem? Meaning, not necessarily him speaking of the searcher being BOTG at that point in time but that of by then us knowing/seeing the Blaze in the poem, Being wise to this by that point in of the poem when reading the poem? Reading the poem over and over being his wise advise to be wise to find the Blaze? Some folks apply this idea therein the first stanza as for a preemptive to the wwwh.

      IMO . Just an idea.

    • Tom Terrific – Read the SparkNotes for “Little Gidding”. Lots of blaze references in there. The title is named after a 17th Century Anglican Monastery. And Forrest said his “church is in the mountains…”. Here are the next few lines:

      “Through the unknown, unremembered gate
      When the last of earth left to discover
      Is that which was the beginning;
      At the source of the longest river
      The voice of the hidden waterfall
      And the children in the apple-tree”

      YNP Caldera fits. Umbilocally. Right down to the Earth’s core. The Madison River as my “IT” fits; the source of a really long river, beginning at my WWWH at Madison Junction. Hidden waterfalls, like Firehole Falls (below the true source at Madison Lake), and those along the many tributaries, also fit. And a few “home of Brown” fits, also: The Madison River as ‘Big Muddy” dumps into the Missouri River as “Old Muddy” which dumps into the “Muddy Waters” of the Mississippi River. (I can hear that Big Paddle Wheel turning, ‘Mark Twain’). YNP as home of Brown bears and Brown trout. And that Fred M. Brown map of Brown’s Hole. Gotta find that “Forrest the Surveyor” link. What rainbow colors combine to make Brown? Radar O’Reilly? Sheepeater Indians as Brown people?meeting Noah, what do you think about the final line in that poem stanza? As to beginnings and endings, and an Apple as the Fruit of Knowledge, and the ‘water high’ of the Great Flood? That’s a pretty ‘high water’ mark on the river bank surrounding my Double Omega Island at Baker’S Hole. In the Public Domain.

      All IMO.

    • I think people are spending too much time worrying about time being important
      in solving the poem, before even taking the time required to solve the first clue.

  12. Go to the drawing of the Stumps, and the bird nesting in the moon, where is home? Actually, that is not a Lumber Jack, Alsetenash it is the UNIFORM OF A Fireman! The blaze may be revealed sooner than WWWH is understood. I think the answers ff already knew and time will tell if I am wise.

    TT

    • Hi Tom Terrific
      I know for a fact that is a logger standing there looking at the
      Dove nesting in the crescent moon.you need to do more
      research.And as far as the blaze thing re-read the poem
      I’ve Been there done that did that.Clint

      • hey everyone, for me the byrd in the nest is at home. so this logger drawing is a hint to the home of Brown. Brown, with capital B for proper name becomes Byrd. so i found a Byrd home made of hewn logs and after that was no place for the meek. im tellin ya it was dark and scary. the hike is easy though all downhill.

        i think.

      • Gosh Clint, facts in this search are really hard to come by, in fact and until the TC is produced by a searcher, it is all IMO, which I clearly understand that confirmation bias drives many searchers on their Quest, based on a hunch, that they like a “Ship of Fools” feel only they can understand and steer the proper course. Thank mr Plato.

        TT

        • Tom T
          Time will tell who has Forrests map to the TC.
          If you know how to find first hint.
          A lot of searchers have tried so far this year
          and came up empty handed
          I used ttotc book clues and hints that Forrest
          gave us so they must be facts how else
          would we find the TC. Clint

    • Oh, so are you riddle inferring “lonesome dove” ( I have gone alone..) and fireman outfit as a Blaze? Home as in “nest”?

      A Dove represents “peace” for that matter…go in peace?

      I dunno….IMO.

      • Alsetenash – My post from a few days ago on this topic on another thread:

        https://dalneitzel.com/2018/10/26/home-of-brown-6/#comment-767454

        Great minds think alike. You, too, Tom Terrific and bob greene. Loved that book by Admiral Byrd. Wasn’t that Hollow Earth theory in there? Do you think Hebgen Lake and Baker”S Hole go straight “quickly down” to China? Didn’t Lewis Carroll write a story about an elevator that does that? Forrest mentioned math and Hebgen Lake to a searcher, didn’t he?

  13. Alsetenash, AKA Tesla, there are so many metaphorical probabilities, even statistical ones in the hunt that one might have an advantage to actually understand “Statistical Analysis” in a deeper level, sorta like Geography and Navagation, although I worked on Navigational systems in the US Navy, something seems more important, so take a random sample of where searchers are looking and delve into why they think WWWH is at a certain geographical location or area, and behind that only one over arching school of thought remains, its divided into this: searchers who look for hot water that has cooled and searchers who look for another”frame of reference”. I remain in the latter category, and since statistics are mathematical in the purest expression then absolute WWWH has formed my opinion of where WWWH.

    I am sure that having made millions for one of the largest Insurance Company in the US for over 40 years and having a degree in Economics with a minor in Statistical Analysis does not expertly qualify me to state clearly, but If you think about ODDS of winning all of Fenn’s Marbles, this idea might pay off..IMO

    See you at Fennboree S 019

    TT

    • TT, were you an Actuary? I passed the probability exam, but didn’t get my degree until I was 47. No luck at securing a job in that area.

      I’m still going with hot spring as most likely, though.

      • Dave, where do you search, and where do you live?

        Kudos for the degree in Actuarial Science and its related fields, you are a smart calculator and real problem solver as well, that is why you make the big bucks, now how are you at jigsaw puzzles? Kids have an advantage according to ff, but don’t ask him to explain. For some big bucks, I might be convinced to explain too.

        Like questions on why its not hot water, boy am I in hot water..I think I told you something I wish I had not.

        TT

    • Tom Terrific – Bend it like Beckham! Did you write, “Ship of Fools” and “over arching” and refer to a metaphorical blaze? And aren’t we looking for the end of Forrest’s Rainbow and the treasure?:

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gjallarbr%C3%BA

      From that Bitfrost wiki link. Another Norse mythology covered bridge, plated in Gold. Headed to the Underworld. Like in the Egyptian and Greek myths. Didn’t Eric Sloane paint covered bridges?

      “As above, So below”

      Thor, what say you, in Midgard? Could that be Forrest’s reference behind “Me in the Middle”? Does Forrest mean the Earth in the Middle of my “IT” as the Madison River?

      IMO.

    • TT,

      I’m not knocking your education or experience, but in my past line of work, I have found that even with a good education some folks don’t have logic at all.

      Statistics does not play a role in finding the tc, it is purely of geography, places and things that makes up the correct map. I have never known a geographical map to contain statistics, The legend of a map may show the population of a town for city and it is not statistical but of facts through the census. I needed to throw in the legend to dismiss the idea its needed for statistical purpose.

      Looking at any type of numbers whether it be through statistics, or using longitude or latitude numbers etc. IMO will not help with wwwh and any clue that follows.

      I will also say that images such as paintings or drawings will not help identify wwwh or clues that follow, simply because they are not of the same place where the poem is referring to geographically IMO.

      ff in the book ttotc, page 133, he says, “There are also other subtle clues sprinkled in the stories.” IMO the *stories* which can be told through the written words, pictures and drawings in the ttotc are not from ff but an illustrator/photographer that portrays what is written by ff and even they know nothing about places or things that is referenced in the poem.

      Just Say’n

    • Hi Tom,

      My WWWH is absolute as well and in the latter frame of reference. If we are starting with the same WWWH, I wondered, have you figured the second clue with the same absoluteness? I believe I have. In fact, I believe all 9 clue solves are absolutes, given the correct starting point, but I won’t know that for certain until I go there.

      Peace,
      Michael

    • I remember university.. I figured the probability of me graduating was fairly low but I could improve it by trying harder.

      I don’t remember why, but I took a fourth-year course in statistical analysis… excuse me while I get a glass of water because my throat is suddenly very dry.. as I recall, it all comes down to an heuristic algorithm that AI machines would be much better at refining.

      But those machines cannot hike out in the mountains, and so my own heuristic methodology has me doing the repetitious sampling out there and refining my route from A to B. I hope it pays off.

  14. In my opinion, from a geographic standpoint in Yellowstone, warm waters uniformly halt around the rim of the caldera. The hot water reservoirs created by magma beneath Yellowstone are contained within the caldera. Outside the caldera, no warm water.

    So how many places can you park a car at the rim of the caldera? There’s only a handful of places where the road and the caldera rim intersect.

  15. Another way to interpret WWWH. As usual, not sure what the right part-of-speech term is to make this clear so I’ll explain by example:

    Armies fight (against someone)
    Art inspires (people, ideas)
    Warm waters halt (some implied thing)

  16. Here’s why I think WWWH is Pagosa Springs, Colorado. The treasure chest dates back to around 1150 A.D. – when people spoke Old English. In Old English, the word “halt” was spelled “healt.” (Pretty close to “heal,” and to “health.”) The most popular translation of the Ute word “Pagosah” is “healing waters.” And, hey, it’s easy driving distance from FF’s place in Santa Fe, right?

    • Lsnce..Forrest did encourage us to visit the Fred Harmon museum in Pagosa…sadly its closed now but the town may resurrect it in a new venue. Texans (sorry to generalize) love Pagosa…think it’s the greatest place ever. I would wager 2 out of 3 Pagosa tourists/skiers/hunters are from Texas. You just never know…

  17. So of all my critics, and those who are in league with the idea that WWWH comes from “another frame of reference” or dimension, would you consider telling me why WWWH is a hot water spring or such a natural thing and yet ff did not define nor hint that when he formed the first stanza, a prelude or foreshadowing “As I have gone alone in there, and with my treasures bold, I can keep my secret where and hint of riches new and old.”

    Now after 15 or so years to carefully construct would we not consider that as a prelude, even stating the word “hint” could actually be just that , a hint of; what the WWWH is. are we so thick?

    Ask yourself am I to place my belief in the poem or a hunch? So examine yourself and decide which ff meant, not what you want. Truth is that you will be in one of the two camps I noted above.

    A La Tesla understand, you do, have deeply pondered truth, you have, more clues than 3 perhaps, you know, “Forrest, You said you made two trips from your car to hide the treasure. Besides walking, did you use any other methods of transportation to get back and forth between the car and the hide? Thanks, Edgar

    Edgar, your wording of the question prompts me to pause and wonder if I can answer it candidly, yet correctly. Were all the evidence truly known, and I answered in the positive, you might say I was prevaricating, by some definitions of the word. And if I answered in the negative, you may claim that I was quibbling. So I will stay quiet on that subject. Thanks for the question anyway. f

    This is an expression like “Not far but too far to walk” it is clear in terms of the realm of WWWH but obfuscated to ordinary hot springs believer, who like “Juan Ponce de León” cannot see the forrest for the wood. The metaphor is clear, the numbers are close so but is it a general solve or a presidential solve.

    TT

    • Tom Terrific – I already did the General George Washington Crossing the Delaware Solve for Baker’S Hole. Betcha a presidential YNP Grant that one is the “correct solve”. That would be $50 cash or ‘fifty dollers cache’ maybe? He who dies with more than that in their wallet is a failure. Why did the original Errol Flynn quote say $10,000?

    • Tom Terrific – I was being facetious about that Presidential YNP Grant. The park was envisioned to “operate at no expense to the government.” And the first Park Superintendent worked for free.

      Note: the original YNP “box” is shown on a map. Is that the “box” Forrest wanted us to get back into? I hypothesized earlier that it was.

      And it looks like that gathering to discuss the idea of founding the park was a myth. I bet Aubrey Haines had something to do with debunking that.

      https://www.nps.gov/yell/learn/historyculture/yellowstoneestablishment.htm

    • Hi Tom,

      I don’t believe WWWH has anything to do with a water feature that one would find in nature. I do believe WWWH is a very specific location. Metaphor and overthought solves can lead anywhere. For me, the poem is a set of very specific instructions. Thoughts?

    • I tink that putting too much faith in a hunch could bring the same kind of bad luck one might get from having a black cat cross one’s trail, I mean path.

    • A hint of riches new and old could just mean, a hint of how to find the treasure, which consists of objects new and old. I’m guessing WWWH is a direct reference to where to start and not something ambiguous that needs other parts of the poem to be solved where that is. I’m also guessing WWWH, is nowhere near where the treasure is, it’s just the starting point. That looking at a map, one may need to find out where the nearest canyon is, which could be many miles away. After one has solved where warm waters halt.

    • If we can trust what others searchers who have met with Forrest say, then Kpro had told him that her search area was an old battlefield. He then pondered for a second and asked her: “How are you supposed to dip your toe in that”?

  18. Begin it…where you should always start your vacation…at the visitor center! Positioned at the confluence of the warm waters…the firehole and the Gibbon. Okay, in another 9 or 10 years I should be able to figure out the next clue!

  19. Sandy, Lisa, Eaglesabound, and Michael Moreland, all the rest of you crazy searchers, IMO of the 2 camps or especially the camp of “another fame of reference” for WWWH, canyon down, Home of Brown and “all the clues” even the blaze will have a GPS coordinate, exact in latitude, longitude, to the inth degree of precision, otherwise we could never get within a few steps, also why would it have been so carefully constructed for so many years, ff started originally, perhaps in the late 1980’s by what was available then, before Google Earth, internet systems, he was using a system that I am very very familiar with, then, at the start only analog systems and geographical maps to plot, like we navigated with in “Olden Days”, like during Vietnam, using dead reckoning and Lorraine radio systems and gyroscopic compasses, Grids were used to locate places, targets etc.

    GPS was beginning to replace the old system when I was in the US Navy in the late 1960’s and it still used Gyroscopic and Magnetic Compasses, with maps, charts and all were divided into the term grids, sort like A to Z across one side and 1-10 top to bottom, so if you wanted grid or quadrant D-7 you could use dead reckoning to pinpoint an exact location within a plus or minus factor that depended on the accuracy and detail of the map or chart.

    Written into this poem is all of those features you will need, that is IF and big if you can locate WWWH and follow the coordinates, I believe it can be done but I assure you that time is evolved not just focus. WHY is a 15 min map or 7 and half min map called that..look it up.

    The general solve is the correct quadrangle and some searcher has that, the rest of us might locate it but we shall see at fennboree S 019

    TT

    • Tom Terrific – Thanks for the great map and the recommendation for research. Is this a good link to use? Or, could you provide a better one? I don’t get the S O thing, unless “IT’S” the A-Z combined with the A-V letters mentioned.

      https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Military_Grid_Reference_System

      And I found my hidey spot, by using my Imagination, and by analizing the Poem, and by deciphering ‘Forrest Speak’; using topo view and satellite view in my Google Earth-based topo map. I did not identify any map coordinates in my Baker’S Hole solve. I just copied the link to the map in the online software to post it for all to see.

  20. TT, have you considered this ATF?

    You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh, and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
    No I don’t madam, sorry. F

    Doesn’t this ATF from f confirm that he has not given the answer to wwwh?
    In fact, doesn’t IT also add into that the blaze and hoB?

    All the info we need is in the poem. If going about solving clues is what is needed to do, then wouldn’t f give the answers to those things in the poem? Wouldn’t he give the answers in the book?
    I mean, if we are to solve for clues, then answers would need to be supplied. But we have this ATF, that says he has not given the answer.

    I think a lot of searchers confuse solving the poem with solving clues. F has given us a map to find a spot, the poem. He gives answers to find that spot, in the poem, what he doesn’t do is give the answers to some of the clues. This ATF confirms that. So I find it hard to see that the first stanza is a prequel to wwwh. Can you please explain that and why so many look for answers to something that does not have an answer? F’s words.

    • Don’t get it twisted TT. I do believe that a searcher can discover the correct wwwh, blaze, etc…And, I do believe that coordinates are also involved, and, that some clues can be solved, just not the ones f has stated. Discovered, found, yes, acquiring an answer that solves for, no. End spot could yield the beginning, but in the middle of the poem, I can see how there may be coordinates involved. Especially when talking about the blaze. But an answer to what it looks like or what it is, nope.

      • To my critics, above, lets define some words,: Clue, Hint, Answers see list below to Kiss principal or rule of thumb.

        A. Clue, ff places them in the poem….we try to figure em out and they become the answer or “C”.

        B. Hint, some in the book, some in the poem.. you guess which of those are ” A’s” in your imagination and “B’s” that may randomly relate to some and how.

        C. Answers, the final one is expressed IMHO as a co ordinate of an exact, to the inth degree, that means the 4th place after a period.

        I am puzzled by questions on “How” I Mr Terrific “twisted” ff words, no I have been very careful not to twist his words, but I am trying to Answer the final word, 166 pieces and a lifetime of memories too, so do you know the one, where the end of his rainbow is…. at. please tell us.

        TT and PS

        Do I need to define HOW or just HOB see my Opinion there.

        • Hi Tom,

          I do believe I’ve found Forrest’s rainbow. Once again a very literal and simple solve and nobody is ever going to believe it. I’ll take some pictures and share later this year after I think about it a while.

        • But TT, he didn’t know how many clues he placed in the poem. I said don’t get what I posted twisted, don’t know where you are going with that. But again, I say read the ATF. The poem is in the book. If he places the answer in the poem, THEN HE PUTS IT IN THE BOOK.

          You don’t need to explain anything. In a sense you are twisting his words if you think some things are in the book and some are in the poem, in reference to this ATF. You want to show me how, okay, show me how the poem is not in the book, then I will understand your position, until then, let’s stick to the poem being in the book, like we all know.

          • And no, I will not share my answers and my rainbows. Nor the coordinates of where the chest is, bell is, or where the blaze is. My wwh is Anaconda Montana. That is key, (the word “that”), the word “few” is in tight focus with the word “that”. So there’s some coordinate numbers, the rainbow is at 22 degrees, that’s all you get.

  21. poisonivey,

    I think you are confusing some of f’s words here. The question is about if f “hinted” in the book about Brown, hoB, wwwh and blaze and supplied the correct answer to one or all of them in the book.

    That doesn’t mean f hasn’t supplied the answer to one of those in the poem. That’s a separate issue. There’s a few ways for f to do that and not contradict what he has said in many ATF statements.

    One other thought, I think we have to understand the roles of what a hint can do for us and what a clue does for us. I think there is a solid distinction between them and we need to explore that distinction. It is what will get us on the correct path to wwwh, imo. Nothing else will.

    • That is correct FD. Poison has been confused about it for a while. The clues need deciphering and the solver will need to discover the correct ‘answers’. The hints in the book will help with the deciphering but will not give you the correct answers. No shortcuts and no cheats.

    • Poem is in the book. How am I confused. Do I also need to post ATF’s where f says the poem is in the book? If he supplied the answer to one of those in the poem, then he is suppling the answer in the book. So if the answer is in the poem, then f is a liar. Sorry guys and gals, the answer is not in the book, that means poem, that means no answer.

      QZ2, that is your assumption. You know that, I’m going by what f has stated, come on now. I’m not confused, unless you can prove the poem is not in the book. :). But I do agree, some of the clues need to be discovered, some clues will be solved, just there is no answer to us on the clues in the ATF. The searchers that have a problem with that are the one’s solving for clues. This ATF makes that impossible, so I understand the confusion. But it’s not from me. The poem puts an “x” on a map, it was never said that it solves all the clues. How could it when it was written before he knew how many clues it contained. Sorry fellow searchers, the poem is in the book, no confusion…

      • You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh, and blaze hinted at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
        No I don’t madam, sorry. F

        Poisonivey, what do you understand for ‘correct answer’??? The premise to the question clearly makes a distinction between the book and the poem just like most of us do when talking about the clues and subtle hints. The poem has the clues and the book has the subtle hints. She starts the question ‘In the book’ and then adds ‘in a more subtle way’ making a reference to what ff has said about the -subtle- hints in the stories of his book, and finally ‘tell which is the correct answer..?’.

        So, what did BW wanted to know? She wanted to know if the answers to the poem clues (Brown, hoB, wwh and blaze) were given in the book. Again, in order to find the ‘answers’ the clues need to be deciphered first, the hints were design to help cracking the clues but no hint will give you the answers to the clues. In any case, there is no answers in the book nor the poem, only clues and hints but once the clues are deciphered then you have your answers.

        • oz10… that is a good take on that subject. I always try to remember this when going down that road… “…if you can recognize them.” To me this equates to having a solid basis of a clue before recognizing a potential hint to help confirm it.

          • ken, there you go and throw that monkey wrench in there again. Lol… The notion that the hints in the book will help confirm the clues is not really based on any comments from ff. When he gave us the instructions to solve the clues he said to memorize the poem and read the book slowly to see if anything will catch on our minds to help us with the clues. He never said to try to solve the clues first and look for hints that will help ‘confirm’ the solving.

            I know he didn’t say it wouldn’t help after the fact either, but what is the purpose of the exercise he proposed for us to do if there was no hint that will help deciphering the clues but mostly only help after it was solved?

            Personally I think that the hints are not even specific to the clues in the poem per se but like a guide to make us think different possibilities. If I think I found two instances that illustrate how Brown could work, but they don’t tell me who or what Brown is, then I can say the hint helped me with that clue but it’s still up to me to find brown/Brown. Also, if I try to solve for Brown first, I could miss the whole thing if I don’t solve wwh. So it didn’t move me forward, just gave me some awareness.

          • nicely said oz10. The word *confirm* was a bad choice on my part. After memorizing the poem and coming to preliminary ideas about what the first clue may be(taking into account the years before Loco confirmed wwwh) a potential treasure searcher could then slowly read the book and see if there was something that sparked a thought process that might help with taking that to the next level. I personally do not think there are any hints with specifics either. I guess this topic falls in line with Seekers recent posts in a way about the process.
            Just to further the idea… you spoke about trying to find Brown first and maybe missing wwwh. This is I think a crucial aspect Fenn has been saying for quite some time. Either way I believe that the first step is to start with the poem. thanks for the comment

          • Michael;

            Go to the top of the thread. Scroll down a bit. You will see Dal’s pic – below that you see a box. Type in “Locolobo” (No quote marks) and “enter” Up comes a list of “Locolobo” contributions – about 10 pages or more. Check each until you find what you want.

            A faster search is – Go to Google – Type in “forrest Fenn Locolobo New Zealand” – up will come what you are looking for – JDA

          • Thanks, Guys. This references the confirmation of WWWH being the first clue, which I knew beforehand but never the source. I thought Locolobo was confirming something else about WWWH as well. I think I have spent enough time pondering this clue myself.

        • OZ2, exactly. There are no answers in the book. And yes, the clues need to be discovered/deciphered. And yes, the clues can be answered. My posts relates to those who need to solve clue to clue, need the answer to one clue to get the next. Who say they have solved clues. This cannot happen according to this ATF. That is why I said “don’t get it twisted”.
          Of course there are answers, has to be, just not the way most approach the clues. TT was talking about solving clues in this way, at least that’s how I read into it. That cannot be done. If all the clues could actually be solved, then a searcher could, in a sense, jump forward, unless you needed the previous clue to solve for the next. But then, how would the first clue be solved? Not in the prior stanza because then that would be the clue. With f coming out with this ATF, it shows there is no answer for some of the clues. Another way must be used to figure out the clues.
          One way is to find the end spot, like I’ve mentioned. Like the poem was written, to find the “x” on a map. Then, where you start is wwwh. Can still get wwwh, but not from solving for just that clue, but by solving the poem. If someone is into solving clues one after the other, it just cannot be done, according to this ATF.
          I understand the assumptions that you post, but we really actually agree, or you wouldn’t say, ” In any case, there is no answers in the book nor the poem”. We will not know the answer to hoB, the blaze, or wwwh. They will be discovered, found, whatever. Like I’ve said, solving the poem is totally different then solving clues.

      • poisonivey, I only have one question to ask you about your insisting “that since the poem is in the book statement”, ask yourself if this is a logical statement: All cats are animals, therefore all animals are cats? Now try this one; All humans are mammals. (2) all mammals are animals. therefore, (3) all humans are animals. True or false?

        Logic and feelings do not work in that order, are we humans THinking creatures first or FEeling creatures first, a person does not Think first, they FEEL first and then think about it, that is what makes us human.

        Forrest IMO has carefully separated out the distinction in his ATF’s and comments regarding a HINT and A CLUE.

        Now what is your final answer to the word TWISTING and Mr Terrific, feeling and logic come into play and from that we get the answers.

        TT

        • All flew right over your head TT. Don’t need to play what came first chicken or egg. On topic, it doesn’t matter, f stated “answers” and “book”. The poem is not going to answer individual clues. Solving clues is not solving the poem. Solving the poem will give the path you will take, which has clues to the chest. You will not know what the blaze is, or what it looks like, there is no answer to that. Same with wwwh or hoB. So, in solving individual clues, you will come to a roadblock right out of the gates. And what is up with you and twisted, I just said don’t confuse what I’m saying. The answers can be discovered, just not the way you posted.
          I agreed with you, there are coordinates, but you stated there are coordinates to wwwh, and that just cannot be. Not in the sense of solve for us searchers. You stated that the first stanza will find wwwh, this also cannot be. I’m not rehashing what a hint or clue is, your last post has nothing to do with what is being said. It’s ridiculous, and I don’t think you are grasping what was said. Sorry for the confusion, but that ATF’s implications are important.

          • poison… I don’t agree with either of you…but I can’t speak with any definitive authority as to who’s methodology is correct or incorrect. Until the treasure is discovered and the correct solve is revealed(if ever) it is anyone’s game. Are you searching this year?

  22. Apologies in advance. I’m new to this. Has anyone considered an inlet to a glacial lake? I obviously haven’t done much research but much of the poem could be about a glacier, or snow on a mountain. From the reflected sun creating a blaze, to the cold waters that you cannot paddle up, as well as the cold and not wanting to staying long. Just curious. Thanks!

  23. Water halts in a basin.
    There are many of those North of SF.
    Find the right basin and you may have the correct starting point.

  24. poisonivey, all I can say is from the context of the write up by BW I can see how f was able to distinguish the difference between hints in the book and the poem clues being in the book. The question was only about one of them and it wasn’t the poem clues. I’ll add in parentheses which one I see being asked about…

    You have said to read the poem (poem clues) and read TTOTC to help solve (book hints) for the 9 clues (poem clues). We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh, and blaze hinted (book hints) at in the book. My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way (book hints), tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
    No I don’t madam, sorry. F

    • I commented to everyone’s post but looks like it got moderated. No biggie. FD, very well, that’s how you see it, but, all I see is answers and in the book. So we agree to disagree. You can differ between clues and hints, but it’s your last line, ” tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” Does not matter if he’s talking clues or hints. The question is if he gives the answers in a subtle way.
      All does not matter, just gives another way to look at the poem. That solving clues is not the same as solving the poem.
      OZ2, I agree with you, that is how I see it. No answers, but can be discovered/deciphered. It leads to, if you need the previous clue to solve for the prior clue, then how about the first clue? It’s not in stanza one, or whatever it is in stanza one would be the clue. It’s not in line 5 alone, so if you are going that route, you are already at a roadblock. This leads to no answer for the first clue, that it must be obtained another way. That going clue to clue is not the recipe here. All IMO.
      This is why I said TT, don’t get me twisted, I do believe the answer can be obtained. I believe that the first clue can be discovered. But only through solving the poem, putting the “x” on a map, and drawing up your path to take. At least, that’s what I see. Just food for thought.

      • Poison, you say “But only through solving the poem, putting the “x” on a map, and drawing up your path to take.” Not sure what you mean by this. If one has solved the poem why would one need to put any Xs on any maps?? I mean, don’t we already know where the treasure is?

        • From what I see, the poem solve puts an “x” on a map so to say. Coordinates. That will basically cover 8 clues on your path. Still have to solve the ninth clue. to get the chest. But, I feel something is buried at the poem “x”. Remember, f said in the poem, “I can keep my secret where”, and what was his secret plan?

          The chest is no secret, we know it is out there, so likely when he says he can keep his secret where, he’s not talking about the chest.

      • I tried for a while “putting an x on a map”. It didn’t help me. But on one
        of my search trips, I saw several geezers.

  25. My first post on any hunt site. I chose the best option so please be kind. I do have a/the solve and am desperate to travel the 900 miles to go on the hike. Until then I want to stop stalking the discussion and participate a little.
    The topic is where the warm water”S” halt. I have not seen any mention of the plural to that word. Forrest was a bomber pilot. I was a submarine hunter. Both jobs require the use of triangulation. I began my solve by narrowing down an area using multiple GPS points. Go big picture or help narrow a locality.

    • So Mathew, do you think triangulation has anything to do with tears? They both start with t. Just makes me wonder….

      • ..and that rhymes with p and that stands for pool !

        Did you ever take and try to give an iron-clad leave to yourself from a three-rail billiard shot? Probably not.

        But with a lot of practice a person can get there by missing school.

    • Matt, I’ve wondered before if FF wanted to get kids & families out into nature for their own sake, but, set up the Chase in a way hoping the TC would be found by a vet with navigational skills. Just a hunch, an inkling …. I’ve heard not to trust those.

    • The concept of “triangulation” could only help near the end of the solve, in my
      (trying to stay polite) opinion.

      • Andrew, why do you think you have to try to be polite? I did not come here looking for answers. I was hoping that someone had already proved me wrong. My back-up save solve was already picked over by a whole team with metal detectors. IMO if you are using a detector, you are doing something wrong. What I am hoping for is that a searcher or more has already picked over the area. I have not found any postings on any site that has deterred me from going for it. I will save the sad story of the recent three tragic deaths of family including my new girlfriend. Now I dealing with a unforeseen custody issue.
        My resources are nil with a bit of struggle ahead. That is life and I am stronger than ever. Getting to that spot I have chosen seems impossible at this moment. I more fear that someone will beat me to the spot than I do of spending every last penny I have and some borrowed to only hike away disappointed. I see it similar to going “all in” at the final table of a poker tournament.

        • I don’t think I HAVE to be polite. But I don’t want to give so much
          info to a competitor that the TC gets found before I find it. Good
          luck to you.

          • I wouldn’t worry about giving out so much info Andrew.
            You are really safe in that department from what I’ve read of all your comments.
            It would be a lot easier to figure out the poem than trying to figure out your solve IMO.

        • Matt…If you want to calm your anxiety about someone beating you to the treasure, read through Dal’s blog from the early days of the search. That has been a very common theme from the beginning. The treasure is safe…waiting for that one person to beat the odds. It is not worth making poor decisions for that reason. Good luck to you.

  26. Matthew, those dolphins look great on Navy Uniform, Kudos on earning the right to wear the “fish” (Dolphins). I was offered Nuc School and the opportunity to go under, but at that time, about a year of reactor and subschool, this opportunity happened at a crossroad in life for me, I had just passed IC2 in 1967 and had qualified to run throttles on USS Enterprise, the second most powerful engines on planet earth, only the Saturn V had more thrust, and that sign above the controls made you “feel all special”, I decided to come home, to University of New Mexico and University of Albuquerque, where I belonged to Chi Gamma Iota (XGI”s) AKA Baby Killers, well I passed on the dolphins because in 1968 the war was ragging and I knew that the MEKONG DELTA was in my future if I did not finish and qualify. I was not real happy to risk that since it took a lot of work and study to wear the fish.

    Were you SONAR or ET? All IC men are ETs now did SONAR and Fire Control all go under the ET Badge? One important part of my job was Sperry and Arama Compass systems, back in the early part of 1960’s we used Dead Reckoning, charts and GPS was introduced and I helped install those systems in the latter part of the 1960’s.

    Understanding that old and new navigation process helps me to see some co ordinate lingo in ff;s writing, analog is always the backup plan and saved many a downed airman, along with that little raido and Lorraine https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Omega_(navigation_system)

    Called OMEGA oddly enough, and it was the Rosetta Stone for a good PING..to speak SONAR….

    You probably have a leg up on this HUNT FOR A RED OCTOBER, but think of what Forrest meant when he used that rule of thumb and covered up PHILADELPHIA…you understand what is under your thumb and it’s power…

    TT

  27. poisonivey, could not reply upthread. I see what you’re saying. Based on the repetitive instruction to go back to the first clue it seems that wwh has to be deciphered by itself.
    The ‘apparent’ vagueness of it has all of us exploring different alternatives, then most of us come to somewhat the same conclusion, and that is to look for a matching canyon, to a reasonable not too far to walk distance to a made-up home of Brown. Then do the same for all the wwh that we locate out there and use the process of elimination. Add to that the confirmation bias from all of the extra information and now we have hundreds/ thousands of years of work.

    I just find it incredible the amount of times that ff has told us to go back to the first clue and to quit staring at further clues down the line. I mean, it really is something if you think about it. He doesn’t even have to help us any further but I don’t know in how many ways and how many times he has commented about those 2 important instructions. Go back to the first clue and don’t be preoccupied with later clues. We all know this but quickly disregard it. So yes, the first clue can be effectively deciphered with no confirmation from later clues nor hints from the book.

    • Oz,

      Yep. need the first clue or we have nothing…

      But we have the comment; all the information to find the chest is in the poem… right?
      How is this comment explained?
      Does it mean; all the information to “decipher” the clues, are in the poem as well-?- so there’s a need to understand later clues and information in the poem… to get us to what represents WWWsH.
      Or
      Does it mean; the poem ‘only lead you to the hidey spot,’ and information to help “decipher” the clues are within the book?

      Can we really have it both ways??

      Ah! then again we have fenn saying [paraphrasing] they don’t need to read the book, they need to read the poem.. the book will help.. but if they can decipher the clues in poem it will lead to the treasure [ OH – Torge and Elliot radio interview, I believe].

      I’d have to go through many ATFs but IF I recall correct, fenn was admit about not “looking for” later clues, and not so much, “deciphering” their possible references… there is a difference. { another-wards, you can’t start at a later clue, we must – for some reason – start at WWWsH }

      Which makes me think this is more an observational solve than BOTG – Stomping-Out clue’s reference. IF you didn’t find the chest.. go back to WWWsH, line of thinking.
      If we don’t have WWWsH “nailed down”, the first clue, the starting point… we don’t have anything.
      IMO. later clues could be deciphered / found on a map… the question is… do we go to them?

      • Exactly OZ2. I agree with you. Seeker, I think the go back to the first clue comment is more like go back to the poem. Your poem solve is wrong. Having the first clue nailed down, in that context, seems to be saying to have the poem solve nailed down. If we don’t have the first clue nailed down, we don’t have the correct end point nailed down and cannot figure out the correct wwwh/start point.

        I agree Seeker, it seems to be more of an “observational” solve. But observed with BotG. I truly, after all these years, feel that some of the clues cannot be solved, but will be found/observed/deciphered with BotG. That your path will yield the correct references to clues.

        I think we have no choice but to go to them. What we walk, from start to finish, will have the clue references within that path. For me, it’s a canyon, too place for the meek, to the blaze and marvel gaze, some direction and distances to the proverbial “x”. Dig for the bell, and then the ninth clue solved gives up the chest. Just ring the bell so f will know:)

      • Seeker posted: All the information to find the chest is in the poem.
        Does it mean; all the information to “decipher” the clues, are in the poem as well-?- so there’s a need to understand later clues and information in the poem… to get us to what represents WWWsH.
        Or
        Does it mean; the poem ‘only lead you to the hidey spot,’ and information to help “decipher” the clues are within the book?

        The information to find the chest is the 9 clues in the poem. That’s the truth but not the whole truth. We need those 9 clues but we also need to decipher what they mean, then we will have all the information we need to find the chest. We need the actual end result of each clue, one at a time starting with the first and consecutively until the last one. But the first one is crucial it seems, if we don’t decipher that one correctly nothing else will fall into place.

        He also told us to memorize the whole poem. But he says not to be preoccupied with later clues until we have the first clue nailed down. Is there other info/data (outside further clues) in the poem that will help us decipher the first clue? Yes, it should be there if needed. What I mean is that if -Begin it where warm waters halt- can’t be deciphered with those 6 words only then anything else needed should also be in the poem. We don’t know if anything else is needed, we have the same knowledge as to what was said in that New Zealand interview.
        We can speculate all day if more info is needed from the 1st stanza to complete the first clue, or any other stanza. Or we can say take it in the canyon down completes the first clue cause of grammar, but why didn’t he include it in that NZ interview? I don’t think is part of it but just my opinion.

        In regards to the hints in the book, he said a couple of good ones and a couple of aberrations. Some say they found the correct hints and others just use everything that seems out of place as a hint. Dozens or hundreds of hints from the book, but since we don’t know which is which anything goes. FF will never point them out for us, and seems convinced that ‘an average joe’ can use the book to find the hints that will help him decipher the clues in the poem and finally marry those to a good map or google earth and find the treasure. Maybe those who are ‘above average joes’ will correctly decipher the clues without the help of the book/hints. As I have said before, a hint will not give us the answer to a clue or the end result but will help with the solving. I think that’s why he made the distinction and used the word ‘subtle’.

  28. poisonivey said this upstream:

    If all the clues could actually be solved, then a searcher could, in a sense, jump forward, unless you needed the previous clue to solve for the next. But then, how would the first clue be solved? Not in the prior stanza because then that would be the clue.

    ————————

    I don’t agree with this reasoning. I’d reason that one needs to keep in mind the basic parameters of what a clue does for us searchers according to f. That is they get one closer to the tc. You can also add in that they are consecutive/contiguous.

    Now, that differs than how a hint is defined by f. They help with the clues. Kinda vague but obviously the hints can’t do the same job as what a clue does for us as poisonivey pointed out…the first stanza can’t have information in it that gets us closer to the first clue because then it would be considered a clue.

    I’d say you’re not utilizing something very basic in mind when you stated that. It’s easy to reason that the clues start at clue 1. Also, we know for sure that wwwh is the first clue. So that means anything useful to us in the poem before clue one can’t be a clue. The obvious reasonable answer is that any useful information in the first stanza can be a “hint”. That’s the answer to poisonivey’s question, imo. It even has the word “hint” in that stanza and nowhere else in the poem.

    It can be considered a useful hint because it can get us closer to the correct starting point than where each of us live. The hint levels the playing field to provide the starting line. A hint in this fashion doesn’t violate f’s definition of a clue because we would still be further away from the tc than where the first clue is. If a specific hint location passes that test then that’s the answer for poisonivey.

    • I could agree with that FD, except then the ATF comes to mind. And since we see that ATF differently, we would go round in circles. If the answer to wwwh is not available, hint or otherwise, then there would be no hint as you say in the first stanza, since the poem is in the book. A hint in this fashion would violate f’s answer to the ATF. I mean, that ATF does say hint, answer, and book. So a hint will not reveal the clue as you say, it can’t. There is no hint in reference to wwwh that will supply an answer. To follow f’s comments on wwwh, it must be found/deciphered. Searchers have been there but didn’t know it, because they didn’t know where to go in the end.

      • Dear Fundamental Design, This is real “Fun” with Dick and Jane, see your explanation to Pi: I don’t agree with this reasoning. I’d reason that one needs to keep in mind the basic parameters of what a clue does for us searchers according to f. That is they get one closer to the tc. You can also add in that they are consecutive/contiguous.

        Furthermore to Pi you said plainly: Now, that differs than how a hint is defined by f. They help with the clues. Kinda vague but obviously the hints can’t do the same job as what a clue does for us as poisonivey pointed out…the first stanza can’t have information in it that gets us closer to the first clue because then it would be considered a clue.

        Finally you said: I’d say you’re not utilizing something very basic in mind when you stated that. It’s easy to reason that the clues start at clue 1. Also, we know for sure that wwwh is the first clue. So that means anything useful to us in the poem before clue one can’t be a clue. The obvious reasonable answer is that any useful information in the first stanza can be a “hint”. That’s the answer to poisonivey’s question, imo. It even has the word “hint” in that stanza and nowhere else in the poem.

        I will not repeat what I said earlier, nor will I state the last paragraph you wrote to explain hints in the poem, the problem is IMO that the sheer fact that Forrest took some 15 or so years to express this poem very succinctly, and with profundity, then according to ff it might be risky to discount any words in the poem. Apr 5, 2017 – “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the … what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.f.” IMHO ff would not just throw out this first stanza unless and because it hints to WWWsH location and definition.

        Although I have pointed out several times that there are BIG HINTS in the Poem some people, since Forrest never said that, that there aren’t
        any, poppycock, The Hints might ultimately prove to be more important because you cannot define a duck by just saying its a tube that air blows through. That leaves out the feathers and an even larger Q or the big question: Does a duck have lips?

        ATF, scrapbooks, vignettes, all types of communications may hold the vital definition that illuminates a clue.

        This all borders on your frame of reference for WWWH, choose the camp of hot springs or like me something entirely different.

        TT

        • TT – interesting! Could you please expand on your “duck” definition further by answering the Big Q and tell me, do they have lips? I have two ducks, Cricket and Peeps, but have never thot of them as tubes that air blows through – altho…..they do quack alot when they are hungry.

          Did you know that Dizzy Dean had a brother nick-named “Daffy” and please don’t forget about the third bro.

          • Since the subject du jour is ducks, one might ask about FF’s BB gun (a Daisy). Or not. I think it was, once upon
            a while, frequently cocked.

          • Thanks WWW. You always seem to ask the right questions and for me at least, it helps figure some of this chase out. I now know the proper way to view a duck and (or vs.) a tube. I just needed to get back inside the box. Oh and btw, I remember you stalking me somewhere else a long time ago. Maybe we will run into each other again in the future. LOL

          • WWW, meant to say I just needed to get back inside the box but leave the top off. Except, of course, for the center of the universe which only has a top and and no sides. But now I am channeling my inner Lisa Cesari and thinking of what started the universe? The big bang theory of course. Whacky!

        • I have seen them. But they only occur on deformed birds. I have seen them on chicks also. The poor little things usually don’t make it though. It is sad.

          • Yep – and I have a pig that flies but only on very special occasions. His name is Ziffel.

  29. TT, I hear what you’re quacking about.

    You said: The Hints might ultimately prove to be more important because you cannot define a duck by just saying its a tube that air blows through.

    ———————
    I agree with your thinking that the hints might ultimately prove to be more important. To me, it’s reasonable that figuring out the correct wwwh “hinges” on figuring out a hint(s). It’s pretty obvious to me that the correct wwwh can’t be figured out just by that clue line. No other clue line can do that job for us either cause that would violate f’s simple rule. So, it essentially has to be a hint(s).

    • FD Even a kid can find where to start on ANY puzzle, grownups, not so much.

      Puzzles don’t important clues except one or two, and that is WWW do we start, the order after that follows color, look at the picture for colors and or in our case the poem, I tried to get Pi to see that with my Miss Ford.s class analogy but she was like ms Brown she could not see the forrest for the Trees, color in the poem is fenns rainbow IMO . Now speakin of Trees what wood this say to you Mr FD at 1 min and 50 secs.

      Trees what kind and I do not mean PINYON, I mean another Freudian slip

      TT

      • I agree with you guys. The hints will prove to be highly important. In fact, I think the hints will evev backup or prove the clue. For wwwh, the actual place could be filled with hints. Bare with me and I will explain mine.
        Anaconda Montana, I reached here because the solve of the poem gave me a spot, and to get there, I start in anaconda. Looking at anaconda, I have warm spring creek running thru it. Also, there is a train stop there that is now a hardware store, where you can get nails. Built by a Robert Nickel, f uses. Nickels. The whole area was once part of the Yellowstone geyser system, but now dormant. There are a few more, but I think you get my gist. How hints can describe the clue.
        There is no real answer to wwwh, but four d by finding the end spot. This place is where I park and start my walk along my path. So, even though I have an answer to wwwh, it was more like discovered, because I believe that is how you solve for it and keep the ETFs in check.
        The hints throughout his stories are the major proof. Like seeker says, the checks and balance system. All could be wrong, could be right, don’t know, but follows the idea of some clues f has not given the answer. O Lynn solving the poem will yield the path, IMO.
        Like TT has said, coordinates ,IMO, play a role, I just have not found any for wwwh. The blaze and the spot, yes, but not wwwh. IMO.
        I’m also with TT on borders, trees, catch 22, and colors, except my rainbow is different. Point being, the poem is so vague and diverse, seems that most anything can work, the hints are the things that will define. Find most of the hints in a solve , they will define the clues.All, IMO.

    • LOL – season’s over and that ain’t no joke. Use to could fly down those slopes with ease but now the only way I could probably get down them is on my rear (can we say “butt” here?). Still gives me a lift just thinking about the good ole days when I was young. Relics of the past always touches my soul. Hope my children remember me that way.

  30. Here is a WWH deal. Have you all heard of the flooding in the plains states? Many things are Closed because of it. I guess it is really bad. I am seeing in the news many places Closed or partially closed. I feel for those folks.

    • And it’s only getting worse – the creeks continue to rise and we got water where it’s never been before.

  31. Something that resonates with me in thinking about WWWH is a vlog by Cowlazars. He talks about not looking at the obvious. Fenn spent years working on this poem and Cowlazars thinks we need to be more creative with WWWH.
    Food for thought…

    Find the missing item in the sequence:

    | 1 | 3 | 5 |
    | 2 | 4 | |

    Is it 6?

    | 1 | 3 | 5 |
    | 2 | 4 | 6 |

    Gear Shift: The missing item is the letter “R”.

    1 3 5
    |__|__|
    | | |
    2 4 R

    • Sorry about the ASCII formatting. This hope this turns out more clear.

      |1|3|5|
      |2|4|..|

      |1|3|5|
      |2|4|6|

      |1|3|5|
      |2|4|R|

      • Actually, the answer would be 6. A gear shift layout for a 5 speed with reverse would look like this:
        1 3 5
        | | |
        —-N—-
        | | |
        2 4 R
        Lol, but I get your point:) Of course, this probably will not post correctly anyway. But to your point, I have found that most everything that has to do with the chase follows the “don’t look to the obvious” type of interpretation. Case in point, the line too far to walk, what is the obvious interpretation? Or look quickly down your quest to cease. Take the chest in the 16th line, all, IMO, are not answered with the obvious.

  32. I know Forrest has said there is only one HoB. The consensus seems to be that there is only one blaze. But what about WWWH? Could there be more than one WWWH in the poem? He said “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe”. This doesn’t say there’s only one WWWH in the poem.

    My reply button doesn’t work so thanks in advance to anyone who can answer this.

    • MM;

      Anything is possible. Forrest has put so much emphasis on nailing down the first clue – which is WWWsH – I doubt that there is more than one reference to it in the poem. On the other hand, I have mentioned before that I have a “Big Picture “solve that has a WWWsH, and then a “Small area Visual” solve that also has a WWWsH – So in this sense, I have two. They are different, and in different locations. Just how I see it – JDA

    • MM, Not likely. There is only one place to start, IMO. Once you are done with that clue, that is pretty much it. You go on to the next. Since it’s only mentioned once, most likely that’s it. There could be multiple hints that make up wwwh, but only one place to start. At least, IMO, that’s how f intended it. Hence why he said, “If you don’t have that ONE nailed down”, referring to the first clue.

    • Any one of several choices for WWWH seems, so far, to work for me. But I don’t have the treasure chest in my possession.

    • I think there is ONLY one WWWH, ONLY one Canyon down, ONLY one HOB, ONLY one Creek, ONLY one Blaze, and ONLY one end, and of course ONLY one chest. FF said “There are many places in the RM where WWH, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.” IMO there are more than 500 WWWHs in the RM, but the correct WWWH is the only one contained in the poem.
      — MK

      • Good luck. Are you prepared to work on your solve by choosing one of
        the more-than-500 places, and seeing if you can connect it to a nearby
        canyon? May I suggest you stay flexible, perhaps using some “fuzzy logic”? These questions are not specifically intended to crack you up, but
        that happens, it’s kinda understandable. As always, IMO.

  33. Warm waters are comfortable waters.
    I think perhaps you might consider beginning it somewhere outside the “comfort zone.”

    • I do begin it outside the comfort zone. It gives me instant incentive to dry off. How about you wwwamericana?
      Or are you just suggesting others do it?

  34. Ahoy mates,
    In my mind, WWWH is a simplistic matter, just need to figure out which one it is.
    It took me a lot of time to figure out what it is, the question now is which one and where is it.
    Imho it is not a matter of steps. Not going to say much more still working out details.

    • Too subtle to be very helpful, perhaps. I tink you should try to relax. Some things are sweet and wet. I hope you have sweet dreams. All IMO.

      • Just warming up a bit. Gonna grab me a pop-cycle and sit and think some more. A nap would help – refreshes my mind and clears my cache.
        As always IMO

  35. As MaijnKing pointed out above…
    Forrest has said:
    “There are many places in the RM where WWH, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe.”
    In my opinion this certainly seems to suggest a thermal feature…These thermal features are hot or warm water gushing, pouring, spouting or pooling out of the earth. There are thousands of them in the RMs…most are north of Santa Fe along the active tectonic plate movement region.

    But…there are thousands of them…how do we know which one Forrest might want us to start at?
    Forrest only talks about one or two of these in all of his writings. So one of these might be the one that he is referring to as the place to start…

    He talks about Ojo Caliente in Yellowstone National Park in his short story “River Bathing is Best”, which is also posted on his website for all to read. So maybe this is the thermal feature…or hot spring he wants us to begin at.

    But there are more clues too…in the poem…
    Look at the first stanza of the poem. Forrest has told us that the clues in the poem are in order…and that “Begin it Where Warm Waters Halt” in the first clue…
    (see the cheat Sheet for this and other “truths” we know)
    https://dalneitzel.com/cheat-sheet/

    So what is the purpose of the first stanza if it does not contain a clue…

    In my solution the first stanza contains hints…
    But I don’t think the hints are about the hidey spot as many folks contend…nor do I think it is an introduction as many others contend….I think the first stanza is a neatly selected series of hints that help us identify the place of the first clue…WWWH…

    In “River Bathing is Best” Forrest describes Ojo Caliente as the place where he would ride his bike in order to take a warm bath. They had no plumbing in their cabins in West Yellowstone for the first few years. So he either had to go to the train station and pay 25 cents for a shower or ride his bike out to Ojo Caliente and take a warm bath where the hot water from the hot spring mixes with the cool water of the Firehole River.

    Again…think about the first four lines of the poem describing that event..
    “As I have gone alone in there
    And with my treasures bold,
    I can keep my secret where,
    And hint of riches new and old.”

    I think he is describing skinny dipping at his favorite bathing hole on the Firehole River…
    He is describing that experience and giving us a hint as to which one of the thousands of places in the RMs where WWH for him.

    In my opinion, it is likely that Ojo Caliente in YNP is the place to begin…
    But…tens of thousands have started there and so far…no one has been able to figure out the way to the chest…

    • Dal;

      You make some good points – especially about what Forrest has to say in “River Bathing is Best”. I pose a question. What if Forrest is using this story to describe a different spot other than Ojo Caliente? As Jack Webb used to say – “Only the names have been changed to protect the innocent.” Forrest could be using the story about bathing at Ojo Caliente as a way of describing another location. I am not saying that this is what Forrest has done. I am just posing the question hoping to bring about a bit of discussion. Just askin’ – JDA

    • I think you hit the nail right on the head dal and thanks for sharing.
      We know he went alone in there.
      Yup, on his website for free. You don’t need to buy the book although I do recommend you acquiring “too far to walk”.
      https://www.oldsantafetradingco.com/blog/river-bathing-is-best

      His story River Bathing Is Best, Fenn doesn’t give an exact location to where this is but gives directions when riding his bike there.
      It was a secret to us when he wrote it and published it but then later on became public knowledge where this secret place was and is from what I recall but I don’t remember exactly when it was known to everyone so I could be wrong.
      I do recall you went to that place and recorded video that is on Vimeo and Fenn’s website on the link above.

      River Bathing Is Best is the 5th chapter in “too far to walk” and the 5th line in the poem is “Begin it where warm waters halt”.
      What are the odds? Fenn said the hints were not deliberately placed in “The Thrill Of The Chase” but never said they were or were not in “too far to walk”.

      This place is not in a canyon and may explain why we need to take the quest “in” the canyon down. If it was in a canyon then why the “in” if your already in a canyon.

      I could go on and on and will in the future and I’m not paranoid about giving away what I think the 1st clue is as most, because it really doesn’t give much away even if you’re right especially when most are fixated on their own solves as we all are. It’s a tough sell to buy into others solves from what i see but then again the larger percentage doesn’t say anything.

      I know one thing. I would never spend my time and my money on someone else’s solve and I think that describes the 99.9%ers.

      • Hello,

        I for one greatly appreciate the open sharing that occurs in these blogs and thank you all for expanding my own thoughts about this stuff. I disagree about the conventional thinking of WWWH. I’m in the other camp with Tom T and I do honestly think that it is a singular location that cannot be confused with others. For conversations sake, my WWWH, which came about after quite some time of pondering potential solutions is where all warm waters halt. It is an absolute for me and has lead me to a very unexpected but logical place. I’ve reached a point where I have to put BOTG to disprove this solve or maybe… sometime later this year I hope.

        • Michael Moreland, can I just call you as I see it…since you SEE it too, so from now on I will call you MM, short for upside down WW you know like TT, only sweeter, now understand that I do not have any kinda man crush on ya, but I love a beautiful mind, like Forrest’s, and yours is firing on all cylinders, kinda like those Elephants that run past the ant viewers who can’t see the truth of WWWH, or the perhaps the real ff for the trees.
          MM you said “I disagree about the conventional thinking of WWWH. I’m in the other camp with Tom T and I do honestly think that it is a singular location that cannot be confused with others.” Kudos and high 5, you may actually see stars when you hear this comment at 1 min 40 sec in, it in there and it feels like what?

          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJBakBqwQVs

          SO listen very closely to that video, It may be the Rosetta comment.

          TT

          • TT, I have to admit, you lost me with the video reference. It would be very helpful for me if folks on this blog would speak in plain terms rather than coded language. I don’t make the connection you reference in the video except that 1988 adjusts the timeline, which I had heard and checked previously to more accurately resolve the timeline of events. The subterfuge being that Forrest hid the box earlier than first calculated and may have flown there because he still had his plane and license at the time. Would you be able to clarify for me the meaning behind the reference in the video. I watched it several times. I mentioned somewhere back in these blogs that my personal philosophy has been to simplify the poem, the clues, everything. For my part, I believe the solve is a very simple path that depends very much on the correct starting point. I also don’t believe any of the clues are extraordinarily cloaked in metaphors relating to Forrest’s life or writings/drawings in TTOTC. So, TT, if you wouldn’t mind, would you be willing to explain the video reference to me in simple terms? I’m a simple person. Thank you.

    • So if he was skinny dipping alone with his ” treasures bold”
      does that mean they were…ahem, the “family jewels” ??
      What else would he have with him? Can’t one solve the treasure
      location with only the poem and not additional information
      such as “River Bathing is Best” from all of his books? Maybe not.

      • Tall – Dal says “In my opinion” and “In my solve” more than once. – I think he is covered. and that is a fact read a bit more closely before you throw stones – and that is MY opinion – JDA

      • dal – Thanks again for that great story and video. Great that you got away with bathing there. Lots of Bison patties and Grizz droppings around that pool, when we visited.

        Scott Schnebly recommended to my friend that she hike about 1.25 miles up the Nez Perce Creek Trail for the best place to fish that ‘home of Brown’ last weekend. There was a huge Bison in clear view along that path. And the Grizzes probably like to fish there, also. They need their energy, during this, their mating season. Needless to say, we didn’t hike up that creek.

        How far did you venture up there?

      • Must be a real special place for Fenn:
        I found this on Fenn’s site but is no longer there. All the comments went POOF!

        FORREST FENN says: 7:09 PM ON AUGUST 11, 2011
        Dal, glad you got there. i knew you would enjoy it. Wish I had been with you.

        DAL NEITZEL says: 5:41 PM ON AUGUST 11, 2011
        That’s a heart warming story about a very beautiful place. After reading the blog I visited that special place and explored the area mesmerized by the stunning beauty and wondrous sights. Most visitors to Yellowstone pass this place right by. I suppose because they actually have to get out of their vehicles and walk a bit to see it. Their loss!

    • Well, I don’t know about that. The first stanza is important I believe. Though there are no clues, however it may be there only to figure out the clues. What do you think?

      • Brian;

        I think that stanza #1 is a prelude. It has information that you need to be awarte of as you proceed with the solve – JMO – JDA

        • 1st stanza has to be important, it sets it all up.

          – Keep secret “where”
          – Hint of riches new and old.

          Is “new and old” referring to the contents of the chest, or, is riches “old” a theme that we are supposed to follow through the rest of the poem? Is it possible that “old” is the word that is key?

    • With what certainty will a swim hole or natural spring still be around in a thousand years? That is the same as a tree or some other organic material. There is no reasonable solution that Forrest would have created this entire event based on some organic matter. Forrest has said repeatedly that he’s thinking a thousand years down the line. How could some water source still be around in a thousand years with certainty? It simply can not.

      Also, Josh Gates asked Forrest on Expedition Unknown why he choose the place to hide treasure. Forrest said, “It’s a place I’ve been a few times and fond of.”
      The fire hole river and Forrest’s swim hole is NOT a place he’s been a few times, it is a place he’s been multiple times, countless times.

      IMO, the geography will probably change a little by the time we hit the next millennium BUT those clues will certainly be there.

      • There’s evidence Ojo Caliente and Pocket Basin have been around for thousands of years and will be there for many more thousands of years until she blows her top again.
        I’m not sure how you can compare a hot spring and Firehole River to a tree. LOL

        I don’t think the treasure is hidden anywhere near the 1st clue (Ojo Caliente) and don’t think searchers should confuse the 1st clue with the last clue where the treasure is and I think they are tens of miles apart.

        • Why would Forrest use places or things that are moving or transitioning when, once again, he’s referring to the clues still being there in a hundred or thousand years, which to me is a significant clue within itself, and are most likely something that is stationary, fixed or is a metaphysical achievement upon the basis of his theory’s relating to the euphemisms pertaining to the evolutions of geographic destonomy in which a superiority favoring the presumptive indebtedness for a…………….. wait a minute, I completely lost track of what I was thinking, oh ya, KEEP IT SIMPLE! If something IS NOT moving it is STABLE (not a structure) whether it is something Physical or Imaginitive but also within logical reasoning.

          Think of this:
          Begin it where warm waters halt
          And take it in the canyon down
          Not far but too far to walk
          Take a left at the purple unicorn

          The Purple Unicorn is not within logical reasoning, it can fly off at any moment, it is NOT STABLE! So why would a clue be related to something that is not stable?

          Dal said upthread that TENS of THOUSANDS of PEOPLE have been in that area and got nothin but blisters on their feet! Why? It’s SIMPLE, the Treasure IS NOT THERE! IMO.

          Drop the mic! lol

          • Pauley T, evidently you didn’t read and/or understand what I said above. LOL

      • I do agree that the clues can’t be *too* ephemeral, Pauley, but I think asking for 1,000-year guarantees goes way too far in the other direction.

        People were still stacking stone in Chaco Canyon 1,000 years ago.

        Look at how much man-made development alone has changed the geography of their west in just the last 100 years.

        “I think they [the clues] might still exist in 100 years but the geography probably will change before we reach the next millennia [1,000 years]. . . .” f

        That doesn’t sound like certainty to me, and how could it?

        JAKe

    • Dal…thanks for sharing that idea. As you have indicated, many searchers believe and have been to that area for the same reasons as you. I just cannot reconcile that Fenn would have so blatantly told of this particular spot in his book and implied that the *hints* not intentionally placed are *subtle* and need to catch up in your brain to recognize them. I just don’t see it. Also… he again references this place as Jake says below. Why would he continue to give the supposed begin spot(first clue) in direct opposition to his statements over the years? That does not equate to much figuring out/learning if he simply gives the answer.
      I’ve used that place myself in trying to come up with a solve… it just never seemed logical to me for too many reasons, also mentioned by others. Again… thanks for sharing and keeping the Chase alive.

      • ken that’s correct and we can argue that this crosses the line between looking for ‘subtle hints’ and looking for the correct answers to the clues in the book.

        -We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze hinted at in the book.
        My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW

        No I don’t madam, sorry. f

        • yes. There are other references to this idea as well. The Emily question about the avid Bridge players comes to mind… but this is what makes this Chase so challenging. So many choices and so many ideas…

          • I believe OC could be a proxy. Sadly, my Yellowstone solution (which doesnt involve OC) just went bust so it’s back to the drawing board. The Grizzly sightings are plentiful and this is a great time to be in Yellowstone. Still hoping to see Steamboat erupt!! Good luck to all searchers this season.

          • Hi Sandy;

            I agree that Ojo Caliente is a proxy – Sorry your solve went bust – Maybe for your next solve you will find the real WWWsH Good Luck – JDA

          • Hi Sandy…sorry to hear(ha ha)… just kidding! This Chase is a hoot and Fenn has folks scrambling all over the Rockies. That was his intention…right? I love it !!
            Proxy… I’ve thought about that angle for years because I just can’t come to believe that Fenn comes right out and hands out the first clue on a platter. The jury is still out on that one too… but my opinion is that the proxy idea is not likely either. I think it may be a similar concept in general… but more basic.

          • Ken;

            Just looked up Proxy – Thought I knew, but was a bit off. Proxy can be a substitute, but as you say, maybe it is more basic than that. Maybe it is just the “Warm Waters” that are important, not necessarily a pool to take a bath in. Maybe it is the meeting of the “Warm Water” with the cooler water where the green grass grows that is important – HUMMM??? JDA

        • I was/am well aware of where the stories are and are not. I also am aware that my comment would and could be picked apart simply by attaching any comment that was in reference to one book and not another. My opinion is that the rules of engagement in this Chase as dictated by the man that started it, run entirely through the heart of it and not just piecemeal where we need them to be because we fail to trust the integrity of the whole.
          So… get the new rope out… and while you’re looking for the perfect tree to sling it over… think about it. Fenn never said this was going to be as easy as some of you imagine.

          • Here – Here – I totally agree Ken. The Chase is at the center of Forrest’s soul. Could he write a book, tell a story, post a SB or answer questions without somehow relating any and all of the above to the Chase? Unlikely.

            Are there hints or “nudges” in ANYTHING that Forrest publishes? Who knows, but I will not discount the possibility just because it is not a part of the poem, TTOTC or on the “right” map.

            Read and listen with care. One never knows when a “Whisper” will be heard – JMO – JDA

      • ken: “the *hints* not intentionally placed are *subtle* and need to catch up in your brain to recognize them.”

        I thought Fenn was talking about TTOTC book and not TFTW?
        We will have to do some research.

      • Ken,

        This has been a huge discussion of the story “River Bathing is best”
        This story was not in TTOTC book, but posted on fenn’s webpage… later to appear in the tftw book. While I can’t claim fenn is not handing out extended hints, clues, information after the hiding of the chest and release of the first book with the challenge and the poem within… it seems strange to me [ even after the story came out ] fenn was asked a couple times about; could the book{s} help… fenn responded with only the TOTC book in his answers.
        {folks can look them up for themselves}
        My point is; fenn has ‘eliminated’ areas where the chest is not – Canada, Idaho, Utah, Nevada etc. nor is it in water or associated with a structure, provide a map of the remaining 4 states where the ‘chest’ lays in wait.. we all know the ATFs.. but as you said, this would be ‘blatantly’ in your face of the first clue [WWWsH] we are told we need to; have, learn where, nailed down or stay home, without we have nothing.

        It seems to be the critical piece of information [our job of deciphering of the first clue] we are told we must have, to get the challenge underway.
        For me personally, that would kill the thrill and the idea of ‘earning’ the prize, if after the first book, fenn just gave up the first clue’s reference.

        • Seeker…your last paragraph is similar to the way I see it. I just do not see Fenn playing his own game that way. I’ve never met the man personally but know many characters made from the same stock. Perhaps I’ve been hoodwinked by one of the best… then again…perhaps not.

      • ken-
        I hear a lot that such and such an idea can’t be it..it’s not subtle enough or it’s too easy or it’s a dead give away or that it’s too common..
        I think that’s hogwash. Based on what Forrest has stated over and over about who he wrote the poem for…simple and common are good approaches.

        We also know that Forrest wrote in SB162:
        https://dalneitzel.com/2014/04/26/scrapbook-sixty-two/
        that some searchers overrate the complexity of the search

        And over on Jenny’s site in a Q/A on July 6th, 2014:
        http://mysteriouswritings.com/category/codes-and-ciphers/
        he told us that it’s useful to keep it simple while thinking about the solution.

        He has also told us in Six Question from February of 2014:
        http://mysteriouswritings.com/six-questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt/
        that each clue is a place…and in dal’s observation, places can be found on a map..

        On the other hand he has chided Phil in another question on Jenny’s site:
        http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-questions-with-forrest-warm-waters-and-geography/
        for “oversimplifying” the clues…but I don’t think he is saying that we all need to make the clues more complex…rather I think he was just pointing out that in Phil’s question there was not enough attention paid to the complexity of the puzzle while uncovering the places that the clues represent…and I agree.

        So let me just say that “complexity” in uncovering the places that are the clues in the poem may be your own idea and in my opinion, not necessarily Forrest’s…

        Crossword puzzles are simple constructs. They are not complex puzzles yet they can be easy or difficult and the more you learn about the vocabulary of crossword puzzles the “easier” they generally become. By the way – did I mention that I have observed that Forrest looks forward to solving the NYT crossword puzzle each Sunday?

        Let me also point out that in my observations of Forrest, I have noted that he loves simple solutions to problems. He loves to confound scientists and other college educated thinkers with his own “simple” approach to solutions to problems…
        This does not mean his solutions are not analytical or are too obvious…but they are often so simple that others, with institutional training in advanced ways to think, went right past them.

        I think it’s more important to become familiar with Forrest’s vocabulary than it is to apply levels of complexity beyond the knowlege of your basic common man or woman…or child. That’s why I study the video interviews with Forrest that are posted on this blog..I listen not just to his words but also to his intent…

        • Dal,

          Trying to simplify the clues has been invoked by fenn many times [ as you have shown in ATF’s ].

          Here’s a Q&A from “Forrest gets mail” back in 2015.. after the second book was release. This is not the only time fenn was asked this style question… it’s just the first one I came across.

          Q~ Is it an advantage to buy The Thrill of the Chase and Too Far to Walk?
          A~ There are hints in my TTOTC book that can help solve the clues in the poem.

          He’s directly asked about both books, yet declines to mention the second book at all in his answer { again this is just one ATF, there are others when asked about later books }.
          I find it strange to say the least because, when the second book came out, it was told to have some hints / clues [ one being Canada Poof – another elimination of an area ].

          Another comment [ SB 62 ]
          APRIL 2014
          Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.f

          As we know the tftw book was published before these comments… My personal question would; why not include that book [tftw] is these types of comments and Q&As? yet seemingly not want to mention it, even when directly asked about the “books”

          Just trying to make sense of it all……………

        • It’s all good from my perspective dal. That’s what makes the Chase so danged fun…everyone see it from a different angle. There is nothing *complex* in the way I see this playing out. I believe the whole thing is probably so basic and ends up being an in the face matter of perspective. Good luck on your hunts this year and thanks for the blog…

          • I like that “in the face” phrase. Reminds me of a rather
            memorable scene in the movie “Romancing the Stone”.

            P.S.
            If I ever say Marilyn, I may be referring to Ms. Chambers or
            Ms. Cole. Certainly not Raoul.

            As always, IMO.

        • Absolutely agree dal.
          Simple, basic, right in your face for the 1st clue and the second should be similar. After that it’s anyone’s educated guess.

          I think Fenn knew most searchers would ignore this spot because he knows people and they would say it’s way too obvious.

          • Jake… I do not think most searchers have ignored that spot. That flies directly in the face of countless stories of searches for years. Three years after the launch…you believe he publishes TFTW just to try out/test your [obvious] theory?

          • Has nothing to do with me and my theory ken and all to do with the masses. You are not most, you are only one of many or most.

            I think you missed the point as well as the first clue.
            They are both too obvious I guess.

          • Jake… I’m not lambasting anyone here. It was a simple question. Let me rephrase; So you think Fenn realized that he made the poem too difficult for * the basic common man woman or child* and because he can’t wait for someone to find the treasure… he decided to put a story in a book three years after the fact that basically tells us where the first clue is? Let’s keep it non personal.

          • Ken and Jake;

            Not to take either side, because I think that both of you have a reasonable point. My perspective is somewhere between the two of you.

            I think that after three years, Forrest found that too few people were finding WWWsH, so he wrote “The River Bathing is Best” story.

            I do NOT think that Forrest was saying that Ojo Caliente was WWWsH. I thinks that he uses this story about bathing at Ojo Caliente to describe the general characteristics of the WWWsH location.

            Winnow the wheat, throwing out the chaff and you will get to the kernels of wheat that count.

            Warn Water(s) that merge (halt) with cooler waters.

            There are probably a few other “kernels” in the story, but one has to sift through the chaff to find them – all IMHO – JDA

          • JDA-
            This might mucky things up…but I believe (but am not positive) that Forrest wrote River Bathing is Best long before 2013. I believe he wrote that story for the West Yellowstone newspaper. Several of his stories in TFTW and TTOTC were originally written for that paper…even before 2010. But since I am not certain which ones I try to be cautious about attributing any of them as written in response to something that happened in the chase…

          • I agree ken, let’s not poke the bear.
            Maybe it’s just a misunderstanding.
            This is what I said and it doesn’t seem to jive with your statements.
            “I think Fenn knew most searchers would ignore this spot because he knows people and they would say it’s way too obvious.”

            I will elaborate a little more. I think Fenn knows how most people think and he had this story on his website a couple/few years before putting it in TFTW. Maybe a test for HIS theory on how HE thinks how people think. He had a couple/few years to see the results and then decided to put River Bathing is Best in his new book based on his feedback.

            Unlike some think, he is giving away the whole cow, (based upon many won’t tell where their WWWH area is because they think those that know what they say will go get the chest which I think is ludicrous).

            I see him just giving a cup of milk and a nudge to set searchers in the right direction, but as I said knowing the nature of people, most would blow it off because it’s way too obvious.

            So, your *rephrase* question(s) do not relate to what I stated.

          • Thanks Dal – I learn something every day. No matter when written, I still think that “The River Bathing is Best” story. is a generalized description of WWWsH – JMO – JDA

          • If the Treasure is found in or around Ojo Caliente I’ll eat my shorts! 🙂

          • A couple of the common Fenn stories were in the Bozeman Daily Chronicle as early as 2008. River Bathing is dated July 2011 on his blog…

          • BTW ken,
            I don’t recall you posting your WWWH anywhere here or in past pages. Maybe I didn’t go back far enough.
            You say a lot about others but nothing of your own.
            A one way street.
            How about a cup of milk?

          • Jake you said: I see him just giving a cup of milk and a nudge to set searchers in the right direction.

            That is definitely your opinion and is okay to believe that, unfortunately ff has never said such thing and has been clear about remaining neutral to the chase. How many times has he repeated the line (I’m thinking a hundred or a thousand years from now, it’s no Sunday picnic, people don’t understand that)? He also said that he had never nor will never give any info to anyone individually to help him/her to get ahead.

            Over time he has given more than what the original searchers knew. Now we know no Canada, no Idaho or Utah, between 5k and 10.2k feet elevation, no under water, no Rio Grande, etc… All that was made public as much as he could to level the playing field.

            Regarding ‘River Bathing is Best’ and just like Sandy mentioned above that could be a proxy, that makes more sense. If that is a hint, then that is how it should be looked at imo, an indirect reference to how one could understand a warm waters halt. Other than that I don’t see any trickery there and no shortcuts.

          • Jake ~’Absolutely agree dal.
            Simple, basic, right in your face for the 1st clue and the second should be similar. After that it’s anyone’s educated guess.’

            “…I am determined to stay aloof of
            providing any additional clues that are useful. Everyone has the same
            information to work with. Some few have stopped within several hundred feet of the correct location, and then passed it by. I said in my book that
            the solution will be difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone
            could do it. Whoever finds the treasure will mostly earn it with their imagination. I have done only a few things in my life that were truly planned. Hiding the treasure chest is one of them. And at the end, the one who finds the gold will not feel lucky, but instead, will ask himself,
            ”what took me so long?”

            Just to high light a few words; ~determined to stay aloof of
            providing any additional clues that are *useful.* I also refer to the – useless clue debate
            ~Everyone has the same information to work with.
            *I’ll add another ATF in the form of a Q&A
            [Q~ Is it an advantage to buy The Thrill of the Chase and Too Far to Walk?
            A~ There are hints in my TTOTC book that can help solve the clues in the poem.]
            ~difficult but not impossible. If it was easy anyone could do it.

            How do you compare fenn’s comments vs. yours; ‘Simple, basic, right in your face for the 1st clue and the second should be similar.’?
            It didn’t seem so – in your face for the first clue- two clues solvers, on site, telling fenn their process, and still he tells us they didn’t know they had those clues solved.

            “You have to find out, to learn where the first clue is.”
            That seems to me to be the whole premise of the challenge… What else do searchers need to learn about the first clue -?- if they can indicated the correct one, be at it, and still fenn doesn’t believe they knew it. Especially if it’s ‘simple and basic and in your face’ in the approach…

            Although, I guess it’s easy to say it is.

          • Included in the below link are editorials Forrest wrote for the Bozeman Daily Chronicle in 2008 (with a newer story sprinkled in)

            Stories resembling the chapters Flywater, the story about The Dude, Buffalo Smoke, & Looking for Lewis and Clark are included

            So yes, he was publically talking about these stories before his first book was released.
            https://www.bozemandailychronicle.com/search/?sd=desc&l=25&sort=relevance&f=html&t=article%2Cvideo%2Cyoutube%2Ccollection&app=editorial&nsa=eedition&q=forrest+fenn

          • Oz,

            Not trying to be nit-pickin here;
            Fenn’s comment; “When I said the treasure was not hidden in Utah or Idaho it was my plan not to narrow the search area further. But in the light of a recent accident, and in the interest of safety, I feel it necessary to alter that plan…” [not under water etc.]

            Unless I’m wrong or forgot something, most of what fenn has given, are place the chest is not.. not so much the idea of the clues themselves. With that said; the only level playing field comment was about WWsH is not a dam. It’s the only time I recall fenn mentioning what a clue is or is not, idea. [other-than the ‘possibility’ of Cynthia’s recalling of hoB]

            So, keeping with the topic… does WWsH have anything to do with all of the remaining states, and possibly why fenn’s plan, was not able-?- to narrow down the spot of the chest, because more than one [ possibly all four ] of the states are in play for one reason or another?
            I’m not saying the 9 clues are spread out over that vast area… but could what WWsH is [ the many, yet one thing ] be connected to the vast area? And we need to ‘learn where’ in that area the correct ‘part’ of WWsH we need to be at?
            LOL which raises the next question; when fenn said there are many WWsH in the RM’s, did he mean, of the same thing as the poem’s correct reference or in general of any waterS that meets the criterias of warm and halt and canyon down… [ for examples only, lakes, waterfalls, mud puddles ].?

            It raises the curiosity about the idea of what the big picture might refer to.

          • Seeker,
            “I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several.”

            Evidently more than several have identified the 1st clue.

            I agree everyone has the same info and again, I agree the treasure is nowhere near Ojo Caliente.

            This is for ken: “What surprises me is that so many ignore the first clue in the poem.”

            Do expect that people will somehow know for sure once they have found the first clue?
            “No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.”
            Or they might have found it without realizing it?
            “Yes”

            Many people have found the first clue but they won’t know for sure until they find the treasure. (paraph)
            No one has found the treasure so it’s safe to say on one really knows if their WWWH is the right one but I’m sure some of the many that have that place as their first clue are correct with their theory of WWWH.

          • Jake…I don’t come here to insult people nor their intelligence. I come here with the idea of sparking intelligent conversation about inconsistencies that seem to appear time and again about the things Fenn has said or commented on. There are always differences of opinion on most matters…but such is life in general. My hopes are always the same…that eventually the rehash will generate that missing thought for someone. It is not a one-way street.
            If it makes you feel any better…my wwh are and have been really no different than all of the rest posted on the blogs. Why post the same old tired stories as some of them are nearly identical…in general. Recently(last year or so) my thoughts have taken a different approach to the first clue and why folks can’t seem to paste the clues together. Again…it is the inconsistencies that stand tall to me.
            So give it a rest and don’t get personal when someone doesn’t agree with what you think.

          • Jake,

            It’s obvious no one is going to know they have anything exact / correct until their goal is complete / achieved. So, in answering those question you mentioned, it doesn’t seem fenn was saying we won’t know what or even where the first clue references is… only, so far he feels [by the information he has] those searchers who indicated them didn’t know they had them correct.

            YET, we have been told; If we don’t have WWsh [ the first clue ] nailed down… don’t go, we have nothing to go on, and looking for later clues is a folly. Nailing that puppy down implies we need to know we have it, right? And not so much a poke n hope, and had a good guess, cuz that isn’t working even when on site.
            I mean, we would need to know something about the first clue being ‘known’ to us to have that confidence to go on a search.

            By the way, ya have a couple of spelin errors in your post… but I don’t think “on one” will notice.

          • Seeker, that’s right. He had told someone about wwh not being a dam so he came out and made it public as not to give an advantage to some over others. Maybe at the moment he thought someone could fall, drown or else while looking around dams so he thought it was important to say it wasn’t and then gave the same info to everyone. Same thing with other comments for safety that you mentioned, and one can argue that eliminating Canada, Idaho and Utah could also be for safety reasons. The idea about leveling the playing field is that we all have the same information and he has been true to that. We only need the poem and the book where the poem came in (ttotc) for hints, but not a must. If we need to purchase another book to know where warm waters halt then that will not be leveling the playing field, I think.

            -does WWsH have anything to do with all of the remaining states, and possibly why fenn’s plan, was not able-?- to narrow down the spot of the chest, because more than one [ possibly all four ] of the states are in play for one reason or another?-

            I think the comments are pointing to a smaller location where the clues are interconnected and this may be another reason (my opinion) why he didn’t mind narrowing down to 4 states. So small that none of the clues are outside the search area nor across state borders. The small destination to a huge location comment is another thing to think about. Is it a section of the continental divide within the 4-state long CD? Is it one particular glacier within Glacier National Park? A small basin within a bigger one? Or just Rocky Mountain NP in Colorado out of the whole Rocky Mountains? Some make more sense than others but that’s the basic idea.

          • ken, LOL
            I don’t take anything personal here. It’s just a mixing pot for ideas. Some don’t contribute their ideas here and only say things about others. 😉

            I asked you a question about your WWWH and you may have taken it the wrong way but I didn’t expect a straightforward answer to the question anyway.

            I remember way back when XXX posted what he thought his theory of WWWH and I asked him a valid question as the one I asked you.
            His response was “Why are you attacking me?” I answered that I was just asking a valid question about your solve. He replied “When you attack my solve, you are attacking me”. Just remember this person attacked his own solve and changed it many times.

            I didn’t think I was attacking anyone or you for that matter. So maybe you need to chill.

            You said It was a simple question:
            Q- Three years after the launch…you believe he publishes TFTW just to try out/test your [obvious] theory?

            How and why in the world would Fenn publish his book in 2013 just to try out MY obvious theory when my theory came in 2019?
            Doesn’t seem like a simple question to me. LOL.

            You say: “Why post the same old tired stories as some of them are nearly identical”
            The only thing that is identical is the first clue and maybe the second but most people by far cannot agree on past the 1st 3 clues and on. There is still lots of room to expand on and after the first clue and this site is about sharing. So much for the glass of milk. Thanks!

          • Yup!
            On one. you can omit the “on”.
            Anyway, when anyone thinks they find WWWH they will not know for sure unless there is a sign posted by Fenn in this spot that says “THIS IS WHERE WARM WATERS HALT” or they find the treasure.
            That ain’t happening but you goto at least pick a spot or few based on a educated guess based on the book(s).
            You never know. It could be a big BAM in the face.

          • Oz,

            You highlight my point. If WWsH can be of a large area such as the CD, which is basically a narrow passage [watershed] through the RM range, A searcher could conclude this as what WWsH ‘refers to’ but we now need something to nail down a specific local on a specific place [the CD] in the RM’s. Could hoB give us that location that “nails down” WWsH?

            We’re not going to look for later clues, it’s the idea of how a later clues can assist in give us a starting point, by starting at the beginning [ what WW’sH ‘refers to’ ]… think about that.

            I would think, in this scenario, figuring out what WWsH is and how it works, line of thinking, would have a connection to the other clues… hence if we know hoB we’d go right to the chest.
            The question is; can we know what hoB refers to without ‘knowing’ exactly what WWsH is about-?- but not yet know where on this section of range we need to be. The first clue solved but not nailed down without the contiguous idea of how the clues mix, join together, line of thinking.

            Now just for the fun of it… could searchers indicated they were at a place on the CD and told of the correct canyon and not truly know they solved those clues?
            Sure, they might have got there for any number of reasons [aberration? a story?]… But if they didn’t understand how hoB relates [ In this scenario ] they might have simply went to hoB or went looking for it [ knocking the clues out of order, when they might have needed to go to NPFTM “from” hoB, the canyon and WWsH ]. Is hoB how we nail down WWsH by putting those clues in an understand of the big picture, idea… If so, wouldn’t WW’sH end up being a specific place on that big picture idea?

            How can we nail down the first clue, without guessing, and not use the rest of the or part of poem? Seems to me, we not not be able to.

        • Hear hear! I will add, the Firehole river is made of many named warm waters, creeks and spings, and in a way they end at the Madison river. He loves those two rivers. Now that Info and a hoB will get you …… close?

          • I can get to ‘your’ creek , you know, the one without a paddle, but did the smoke jumper land too soon? (Thats a reference to the blaze, just thought I would point that out) ( fyi smoke jumpers have a base in West Yellowstone and they are good at finding a blaze)

    • thanks for sharing some of the inner workings of your theory dal. anytime that a fellow searcher is willing to do that, it is greatly appreciated by this one here.

      your line of thinking inspires a couple thoughts of my own. firstly, i would never discourage anyone of thinking their starting point as being yellowstone, if thats where your theory has brought you. but i tend to think that forrest has ruled out the final resting place being located anywhere within the yellowstone caldera, and therefore yellowstone park with the following statement…

      I doubt that a volcanic eruption under Yellowstone Lake would blow the treasure chest to bits, no matter the odds, but it might spread a lot of beautiful cutthroat and and lake trout around the countryside. F

      the odds of an eruption are slim but he covers that with his reference to the “odds” part of his statement and with that covered, any eruption from that caldera would have global effects and certainly send a 10 by 10 bronze chest on the ride of its existence, hence the cutthroat and lake trout around the country side part of that comment.

      and the next thought that you spark is with the notion that the first stanza doesn’t hold any clues just merely hints, two words that are a perfect synonym for one another in their own right. we all know that forrest states, begin at the beginning, you need to find where warm waters halt and he goes as far as to say point blank that wwwh is where you need to begin. but i think we take these statements too far when we suggest that due to them, the first stanza and sentence is merely circumstantial. i think we can all agree that forrest is a bit cunning. i would even go as far as to say that he not only chose words that illustrated his point perfectly but also purposefully chose them in such a way that would give us our own variations of false certainty in what those words mean. with the redundancy of words and terms, the synonyms, the homophones that are most likely at play, i think that a majority can see these elements. but at the same time most of the community chooses to take forrest comments about beginning at wwwh as a way to disregard the value of the first stanza and sentence. for me that is not the case and considering the use of the phrase “my secret where” in the first stanza, its my position that others shouldn’t be so hasty in labeling it only a mere side piece to the conversation. i think that a lot of work must be done on this solve, obviously, and that a lot of the trigger words that get our minds moving are located further within the poem. i absolutely agree that wwwh is where we need to stand to start the sequence too, don’t get me wrong. but here we are looking for “where” warm waters halt as our starting point and in the very first sentence is the term “secret where”. just like forrest’s t.s elliot statement, i think a lot of the things that we find to be important happen along our journey but once we find the true value of these meanings, i think this whole chase is designed to loop us back to ground zero. both in how we evolve our theories and as well in the actual ground that we cover along our journey. there must be something to this that we are missing. forrest himself states that many people have figured out and been to the first clue, he mentions multiple people finding there way to the second clue and even surmises that someone may have solved the third and forth clues. in another instance he states that the longer people work on this thing the further they seem to get from it and yet the closest people have been, albeit unknowingly, 200′ and 500′. is the closet that searchers are ever to this thing in the very infancy of their solve? that would seem to be the implication. do we need to solve the 9 different geographical points or instructions on our movements from these places first and then at the end somehow realize how to put them all together and end up back at the beginning as mr elliot has stated?

      for me, i think so but who really knows? simply put, not me. but i do have two things that i draw from all of this in my own mind.

      firstly, i think that the first stanza has a vital clue, yes clue, within it that tells us exactly what wwwh is and gives us identifying features based on knowledge that is both new and old to the correct theory. that the first step is a synergy of the information we have learned and as well a new twist. and as a natural furthering along of that logic, i take the second stanza as instructions to our movements once we find that magical beginning. both in direction and distance to travel.

      my second thought on all of this is that if we are indeed circling back to the beginning, if the closest anyone has ever been to that ticket to freedom is in the first stages of their effort, yet missing vital pieces to the thought train, then there can be no way that beginning is located anywhere whatsoever within the yellowstone caldera.

      thanks for opening up the doors to your solve dal and as well as to all of the others that do the same.

      all in my humble opinion of course,
      double a

      • Imho the First stanza is or gives us the big picture. How you ask? Think about this, Old and New ? Read stanza 1 right now, then Add ”memories” to that line of thought of ‘giving hints’ as stanza 1 sez he will do.
        I think we all agree, he gives us info on many of his memories. TTOTC book a n d stanza one, put together gives me a big picture.

        • Not clear what you mean by “feed that dead horse”. However, I think you posed the wrong question. I believe you should have asked: “Is the horse still alive in the imagination of FF?” Just trying to help.

  36. Most of the Rocky Mountains are North of Santa Fe, so it could be referencing a geothermal feature, or snow caps. I think it was in an email, where Mr. Fenn told a woman, that there was nothing in the TTOTC book or poem, that identified the correct WWWH.

  37. For me, associating “treasures bold” with body parts is a bit of a stretch.
    I take the first stanza to be him, in effect, saying “The spot where I hid the treasure was in my mind from the time I first started thinking about the chase. It is special to me and there was never another consideration. I was going to make it work no matter what. In my reverie I often find myself stealing away to that place and I will always consider it to be mine alone.”f AND “It’s a place that I visited a few times … I have fond memories of that place …” So, he concludes with the point that he can keep the secret and give out hints.

    But, that does not mean (as some have pointed out) that WWWH is a place he only visited a few times. Might be, might not.

    But, that said, every time I start at a WWWH, I’m keeping that first stanza in mind as I move down the clues. Has not clicked yet, though.
    mBG

    • meBigGuy,

      Another alternative thought is; “As I have gone alone in there…” fenn as has been there before, and was for one last time to hide the chest
      “And with my ‘treasures’ bold”
      Doesn’t that sound like the “treasureS” are there to be with already?
      Fenn never says “treasureS” when talking about the chest [the trove]. It is either- the chest or the treasure chest or treasure -[ never plural ]… it make one think he wanted to die in a play he felt not only special to him … but possibly a place he considers to hold treasureS to him. or special can be one in the same as his treasureS to be with.
      Ya have to ask, why the use of treasureS in stanza 1, chest in stanza 4, and trove in stanza 5?

      • That’s interesting Seeker.
        TreasureS and how he has never mentioned as plural and makes me wonder why he used the word “MY” when in reality he already decided to hide it and give it away. So how could it be his (my)? And also plural?

      • Seeker;

        For me, treasureS = memories. I believe that not only did Forrest take the Treasure Chest into this place, but that he also took with him memories. Memories of his childhood. Memories of his young adulthood, and memories of past life’s adventures. In addition, I think that Forrest took the memories of the place itself. Memories of Mother Earth, going all of the way back to the earth’s formation. Memories of our most recent Ice Age that occurred 1.8 million to 11,700 years ago. Memories of a glacier carving out the valley that we will be in. Memories of a series of waterfalls that moved up the valley as the ice sheet melted. These memories, both Forrest’s and the Valley’s memories are riches beyond compare. Riches both new and old. – And, right now, only Forrest knows where all of these memories reside. Just how I see it – JDA

      • Perhaps treasures bold in stanza one is referring to the treasures associated with the geography that helps us find WWWH. Chest is associated with the physical chest that no longer belongs to FF. Trove has to do with his former collection within the chest. Stanza 1 and 5 has some mirroring with each other to make them both sound like FF and his journey to hide the chest. In reality, I believe it is meant to be only stanza 5 that does this.

  38. I’ve been approaching the poem as word play. I feel that if Forrest made a puzzle that was “difficult but not complex”, that’s how he’d do it. To clarify, I’m playing with the words and sounds in the poem directly (e.g. flutterby), as opposed to making indirect connections to others sources, historical incidents, ATFs, SBs, etc. Also I don’t think that there’s any complex use of numbers or coordinates in the poem. I know that I’m in a fairly small minority in using this approach, but I wanted to get a sense of who else on this blog I might be talking to. In the words of Pink Floyd, is there anybody out there?

    • Gone=gon
      And=+
      Treasures=gold=ore
      Bold=capitalize ore
      Ore + gon = Oregon
      There = T here = trail
      Treasures = T reasures

      This provides a secret where starting spot of considerable size. Research can lead one to the Begin location on the map, while looking for “Gone” can provide a start on a word search grid of the poem.

      Perhaps these methods appeal to you. JW?

      • Iowaengr,
        Thanks for the reply. I find a lot of it interesting, but I’m not following your connection from There to trail. From your previous posts I’d thought you were more interested in numbers.

        When I look at the first two lines I’ve thought a lot about the sounds, so I like your approach of using the phoneme of gon. But I’m a bit leery of then the type of word play in a single clue and mixing in the letters of ore as a synonym of treasures. I’ll think about it. I’d be more convinced if the solution used more of the words in those two lines.

        • Fair critique, JW. And if mixing solution techniques is an incorrect approach, then the place I’ve derived as a final answer for my Summer ’19 search will be just as incorrect as my Moon Lake and Cleve Mine searches from summer ’18. As you say, those searches were based primarily on mathematical solutions. But as I can not produce another pair of answers of similar scope or precision and I’ve proven those ideas incorrect to my personal satisfaction, I had to go back to the drawing board looking for new approaches.

          My current approach begins w hint provided by Line 21: hear me all and listen good, suggests homophones in play. But, I have used any and all creative reading skills possible to dissect each line, or pair of lines if And is in play, as shown in this example.

          I’ll give you another more general one that alludes to the same information from later in the poem.

          No paddle = Oar gone = Oregon

          There’ll be Oregon up your creek

          T (trail) here will be Oregon and it will be moving in a “V” around a critical low point such that your creek water flows into the “V” along both sides of the trail as it dips into the canyon and rises out the other side. If correctly interpreted, this provides a very nice general area confirmation for a critical map point determined previously.

          Same line provides a more specific point as the solution level onion gets peeled into deeper layers, as well, but I’ll hold onto those thoughts for another few weeks.

          In closing, I sent Dal a 20 page write up of my Moon Creek solution, but he declined to publish it.

          Regards, and good luck to you, JW.

          • Iowaengr,
            It’s taken me a while to digest things and think about them. One thing I like about your comment is it seems like you’re actively trying to adapt your approaches and try new things. I’d like to bounce an idea off of you. If you’re interested you can reach me at my username + “imber” (all lower case) at hotmail

    • JW;

      Here is what Forrest hadf to say about words:

      : “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times –STUDY EVERY LINE, EVERY WORD. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f

      • I agree, it’s just that the hints I see in the book are when Forrest plays with words. Flutterby being the most obvious example. I don’t see anything that says we should look in the book for locations. I base this on multiple comments from FF about hints not helping you get closer to the chest. There is one quote where he says “Read the hints from my poem and post them on the map of the Rocky Mountains.”, but notice that he says “hints from my poem”.

        “STUDY EVERY LINE, EVERY WORD” is also something I’ve advocated for. Every line has information we need, though once we’ve figured things out I think that some words will be there just to make the poem flow. But we need to study every word since won’t know which words those are until we’ve figured it all out.

        JDA, my previous comment is more of a fishing expedition to see if anyone agrees with me. I know that plenty of people don’t. Also I mistakenly thought I was on Odds & Ends when I posted this, so sorry Dal.

        • To answer your question directly. I have looked up almost every word in the poem. Today’s definitions, as well as archaic definitions, and a couple of others. Armed with this knowledge, I find it easier to determine which definition, among several, Forrest wants us to choose. All I can do is use a bit of logic, a bit of imagination, and a bit of luck – 🙂 JDA

          • JW, JDA… you might like this … not far but too far = far-far, Or as a child might say, ‘I went farier than you’ … or maybe … farrier,.. . one who makes iron horse shoes. Naw, probably means arf-arf.

          • Cute OS2 – Didn’t Forrest say to measure a horse’s hoof – front to back – double it and add one inch and that is the size of the horseshoe needed? Something like that anyway. Now if only we could figure out how to use that bit of info – 🙂 JDA

        • JW, that was a google translation from polish to English. It should be ‘…clues in my poem and marry to a location on a map’.

          I do agree with you, why else will he say ‘study every line, every WORD’. The riddle.

        • Thanks ken and oz10,
          When I go look where that’s from I see that it’s an odd source indeed. That came from me using tarryscant to see if I could find a quote where the word hint was tied in any way to finding locations. I’ll try to stick to the poem since I’m not well versed in the ATFs. But I’m going to stick to my idea that hints help with the clues in the poem and don’t point to the location until there is a clear indication otherwise.

    • JW, iowaengr is close to how I would read the poem. Except for putting your own definitions into things. Example, when I see “there” I see “t” here, just like iowa. but, I don’t put anything into it. It’s just ‘t” here”.
      I say there are numbers, line 21 is a good wxample, so here is how I read that line:
      So hear me all and listen good.
      So “he” are “me”. This tells me to replace “he” with “me”. Which gives: Some.
      You then have all and l is ten. Which tells me a+l+l+l=10.
      Because we have the ‘some” all and l is ten.
      There are three possible answers: A=1, L=3 or A=4, L=2, or A=7, L=1.
      Lastly, you have the word “good”, or go odd.
      The word “good” tells me to only consider A=1,L=3, and A=7,L=1.
      So, in breaking down that line, I get: some all and l is ten go od. Which is A=1 or 7 and L=1 or 3.
      Since you don’t see numbers, this is just one way. Doing what the poem tells you to get an answer of a line. Most would think that the answer is A=1, L=3, because that fits the alphabet placement, A is first, L is 12 (1+2=3), but in working with the poem, you can find other numbers which will prove A=7, L=1. To me, I don’t care if there are numbers or not, I just break down the line and, in some, find numbers. It’s the solving of each line that counts.
      The odds of this occurring in something written are astronomical, might find 4-6 lines in something, but nothing so obvious. Here, in this poem, you get 24 lines that follow that procedure. That could only be done by design. Believe me, I’ve checked a lot, just this poem can be broken down like this line by line.
      Don’t believe in the numbers, just solve the poem, line by line, you will see. Nobody can say this isn’t a valid way to solve this thing. It follows what is being told, plain and simple. A lot may not see it, but it is a way to solve the poem, all 24 lines. It’s actually pretty creative.
      Now as far as Iowa saying “t” equals trail, that is where I would disagree. The poem would have to tell me somewhere that “t” equals trail. To me, that is the wrong thing to do. It is guessing at something where you were not told. For me, “t” here means just that, only “t” goes there. Unless something else in the poem is using that word as a reference. Case in point, as I have gone alone in there. To me, I see:
      As I have (“g” on e), (“al” on e) in there. “g” on the first e, and “al” on the second e of the word there. Now there are multiple answers to what that could be, but the one that makes sense is: As I have the grale. And breaking it down even more, the letter “r” being are, gives you,: As I have the ale. The first is read to reference that when he started this whole thing, when he was sick with cancer, As I have the ail. Or maybe it is when he had his first drink, or however you would like to follow. But since you are putting something onto another word, and being told to, and that word has two e’s, must be by design. Of course, unless you don’t feel this is correct, but in the end, it is a way to solve the poem. The hard part, the multiple answers that some lines give, and the fact that when you do find the letter values, the poem only gives about half of them. So there is a lot to figure out.
      You don’t have to see numbers or anything, just need to find a way to read the directions of the poem. There very well may not be numbers, but for me, and breaking down lines, it’s what I’ve found, and they opened up everything. Good luck.

      • So for all you big theorists that have complicated solutions here is a link to something that would be better suited to you:
        https://www.google.com/search?q=owl+treasure+france&oq=owl+treasure+france&aqs=chrome..69i57.6956j0j9&client=ms-android-sonymobile-rev1&sourceid=chrome-mobile&ie=UTF-8
        It’s more up your alley than Fenn’s search. THINK SIMPLE! Figure out the poem and find the hints in his book. Don’t fully deconstruct the poem hoping to find the solution. Fenn’s already said that won’t give you the answer.
        Think like you were a pirate, and the poem like a riddle which you have to solve. The book TTOTC would be a manuscript in which there are hints to help with the clues.
        Peasy

        • I don’t know what is easier than just following what the poem is saying. Don’t know where you are trying to go. I think f said to follow the poems instructions, and don’t mess with the poem. If you mess with the poem, you may miss the instruction. But if the instruction is to do something in any given line, then what? You just ignore? He never said that following the instructions would not give you the answers, or to think like some pirate. The book holds hints and clues, it has too.
          The “think simple” idea is not for any searcher. How is this simple? I just don’t get what you are saying…sorry…

          • Think simple. Not that hard. Stop deconstructing the poem, making Excel spreadsheets, pulling up complicated math solutions, etc. He said to think like a child (I added in pirate). Ex: WWWH = Icebox or Glacier Canyon…somewhere where the physical water present doesn’t halt being warm, but where the name might be the reference.

          • like warm spring creek?
            I agree with you to keep it simple. but it is not simple. Just for the fact of so many different ways to interpret. No spreadsheets, formulas, etc… I agree. Just solve the poem. It’s the different ways of solving the poem that each searcher must try to interpret. Not solving clues. The poem was not written in a way that explains solving clues. He gave clues within the poem, He didn’t even know how many initially, how could he put explanations on how to solve clues in a poem when basically the clues are just intended to get you closer to the chest? That is the hard part of interpreting the poem. Again, solving clues is not the same as solving the poem, IMO.
            If you really think about it, the poem is filled with clues, or a lot of words would not be needed. If the hints are what help solve for clues, then it’s the hints that need to really be looked at. There is nothing easy about this process.
            If you think I am deconstructing the poem, that would be messing with the poem, which I did not do. To mess with the poem means to change something without any reason to do so. That is a lot different then following the instructions laid out by the poem. Keeping it simple, or give it to a child is just simply foolish. I might as well just get a map, point somewhere, and start there. That’s simple. Solving this is about as simple as writing it. It only took the guy that knows the answers 15 years to do that.

  39. A New Way of Thinking,

    Warm waters halt……………Where????

    What “IF” we take all of the letters in WWH and see if “IT” describes a place???

    Warm Waters Halt describes the name of a stream, see if you can figure it out……….

    Warm Waters Halt = warwathl Stream

    (You have to figure out the first word)

    It is right there!!!

    BDM

    • Don’t have your answer as I can’t seem to make a full anagram out of “warwathl,” BDM.

      But if warm means: W are M
      Anagram becomes:

      Maters halt

      Maters = Stream

      Halt = H alt = H altitude or H alternative or both

      Applying H altitude with “Water High” could put one around 8978′, or some variant of that if one wanted to start playing around with “High” for alternatives like “Hy is” or other words that start in “H” like Hear, Here, Home, Have, etc.

      One can even start to spell out a name within the poem if “H alt(ernative)” is used this way . . .

      H alt
      to O
      put in B elow . . . and so on

      Huge number of possible permutations possible. Trick is to find one single place that allows for the successful use of a full tableau solution of singular focus! Therein lies the challenge.

      Regards to all.

    • Hey “New Way of Thinking”,

      Try taking all the letters in “Where Warm Waters Halt” and then delete any letters used more than once.

      You get: aehlmrstw

      Now rearrange the letters to get: Thermals W

      Is IT in a hot spring in Wyoming?….

      • Using all letters:

        Where warm waters halt

        Warsaw Thermals W There

        No clue if this could be helpful to anyone. Just playing around.

      • You would have to delete all the “e” unless you mean to delete just 2 of the e’s. So 2 duplicate letters get cancelled out as the W but you keep the 3rd. But this does not work because the H in halt and wHere, there are only 2 H’s so you would have to get rid of those.
        I’m confused but it doesn’t seem to work for me although….

        • Hi Jake,

          Take the clue:
          Where warm waters halt

          Organize thee letters alphabetically for example:
          aaaeeehhlmrrrsttwww

          Remove duplicate letters meaning keep only one of each letter in the list:
          aehlmrstw

          Rearrange the letters to get:
          Thermals W

          I’ll just say that I won’t use this for any of my searches. Just added a comment to “New Way of Thinking” with this oddity.

          • I just don’t like messing with the poem in that way.
            I’m fine with acronyms because your not switching or moving the letters around. I do like the thermal idea in Wyoming though.

            When I first started the Chase back in the summer of 2015 I read the poem and had no books or other info yet and was immediately drawn to WWWH as thermal features and at the time I thought they were in Yosemite National Park. I researched the internet to find out they are in Yellowstone National Park.

            I ordered too far to walk first for some reason and read the River Bathing Is Best story and had my WWWH by doing the math and the crappy directions to his bathing spot. He never names the place except on the Firehole River. Ojo Caliente is never mentioned and also thought it was up the Gibbon.

            I disregarded it in July and went to Cody WY instead to search in Colter’s Hell because I thought the hot/warm springs covered by the Buffalo Bill Dam was WWWH and quickly realized that I interpreted Google Earth wrong and knew I was in the wrong place for the treasure. After coming back home and finding out that WWWH is not a dam, I decided to go back to my first WWWH.
            His bathing spot and I will never change that and now it’s 2019 and I keep getting further and further away from his bathing spot to where I think the treasure may be.

            Spent a lot of time on the Firehole, Gibbon and Madison and find it hard to believe the treasure is anywhere on or around those rivers or creeks.

          • Hi Jake;

            Glad to see you tried a spot in Wyoming – at least you chose (at last) the right state 🙂 – DARN, but then you went back to Montana – Sorry 🙂 JDA

          • Ahhh JDA,
            But I do think the best starting spot is in Wyoming and the best end spot is in Montana. I think he liked Wyoming a little better when he was younger and was less crowded but it became evident to me, he liked Montana more especially when he got older.

            I’ve heard Fenn say and type “good”, “great”, “better” and “BEST”.
            Which is number 1? I paid close attention to when he has used these words and nothing is better than “BEST” it’s number 1, first, the beginning.
            River Bathing Is BEST. There is no #2 in this Chase except wiping up the mess and then flushing it.

  40. Follow up on anagram string.

    Looks like a rabbit hole to me.

    where warm waters halt
    warsaw thermal w there

    The movie “Thunderbolt and Lightfoot” centers around Warsaw, MT. There was a Post Office in Warsaw, but it is now closed.

    Closest town is Chester, MT. Both in Liberty County, far northern part of the state. Mount Brown is generally north of Chester. Sage Creek is east of Mount Brown.

    But land looks to be mostly private. there may be some BLM land around, but elevations are quite low, as well. Only the mountainsides would qualify as in range for the search.

    Could not find other possible links to Warsaw in other states quickly. I’m out on this one. LOL.

    Regards to all.

    • If you’re going to make an anagram from a poem, you need to use every letter of each line in the resulting anagram poem, I think. And contractions are cheating. Shorthand is right out.

      For a million dollars the puzzle is much more amazing, IMO.

  41. Posting this here as the thread above is too long.

    Seeker asked: “It raises the curiosity about the idea of what the big picture might refer to.”

    I just finished reading this and it might be relevant…..or not.

    Personal note: I am not advocating that the treasure chest is located in YNP.

    Anyways, here’s an interesting article (and a quick read) where Forrest has made an actual comment about a possible “big picture” idea.

    In the Cody Enterprise article, dated August 13, 2014, Forrest makes the following comment about searchers getting caught breaking a number of rules in the Park. Forrest says:

    “I think banning them from the park is going too far,” he said. “In the big picture of Yellowstone, how terrible is it to have a metal detector in your backpack?”

    Personally, I think it might help to have a general idea of what Forrest might think is a “big picture” kind of idea.

    Anyways, there’s lots of good info for those searching in and/or around the Yellowstone NP area. And other areas too.

    Just thinking the “big picture” comment might be worth a quick look. Could spark some fresh ideas, or not.

    I’m hoping this link works.

    http://www.codyenterprise.com/news/local/article_419d78f4-2341-11e4-99a2-0019bb2963f4.html

    All IMO,
    SRW

    • “He was diagnosed with kidney cancer in 1988. When he was told his life was in jeopardy, he started thinking about burying his treasure.”
      Nice article but he never said he buried it. (said that he did not say that it wasn’t buried either). Be weary of all articles and remember that Journalist don’t always get it right. IMO of course

      • Hi Not Obsessed:

        I too get “weary” of articles and journalists that do not pay close enough attention to what Forrest says or has said – 🙂 JDA

      • Hi Not Obsessed.

        Good reminder for the reporters not always getting it right. Thanks.

        These days I pretty much like spend much of my time over on Tarrscant for my primary research. I enjoy searching my own ideas. I prefer to get my information straight from the horses mouth if ya know what I mean.

        Good luck to you.

        All IMO
        SRW

      • Actually N O, he once did say he buried it. It is later that he said that he did not mean to say it is buried or not. He has since stuck with, and told us searchers, that he is not saying whether or not it is buried or not. And yes, reporters put in their own interpretations at times. Best to get it from f himself. (even though there will probably be two or three ways to interpret what he is saying).
        It’s like the coins in the chest. At one point early on, he said there were 254 coins in the chest. In the book, he just says hundreds. He has since stayed with 265 coins in the chest. Just saying hundreds would still prove his point, but to actually put in, and remember he put in 265, lol, means something.
        I think we all think the reason he cannot say it is buried or not goes with the time it will sit out there. He may have hidden it, but with the years, it surely may be buried of some sorts by now. Didn’t he say something to the effect that he knew where he would hide the chest? It seems that the chest was not at first intended to be buried, but he can’t say it isn’t because of the foliage.

    • SWR,

      In this article, it seem to imply and idea, rather than a place.
      Can the idea relate to the poem as well?

      For examples only;
      IF the CD [ being a large place of it’s own ] can it refer to WWWsH as a single idea of the watershed, line of thinking, as the big picture, yet still be consider a specific place ?
      Or
      Is the big picture an idea of the challenge itself, and/or possibly fenn “thinking down the road” a 1000 plus years-?- and how the clues could still be work the way fenn intended for future generations to come. { with the idea it would be a bit more difficult as time rolls on }

      When reading the article and fenn talking about the poem… I personally have to be careful of the subject matter and how the wording [ such as the idea of the phrase ] Big Picture is or might be intended to what is actually being talked about.

      Here’s an example;
      Fenn was asked about the sealing of the jar with his bio inside. The conversation [Q&A] is obvious… it talks about the mentioned of water / moisture protect of an item in the chest.
      In that Q&A fenn stated; Although i’m not ready to say the chest is not in water… he want to protect the contents within the olive jar.
      When he stated; … “not ready to say”… didn’t he actual do just that, only later to come out and state; the chest is not underwater? However, one can read into this Q&A, the conversation / ‘that line’ in the conversation, was about the idea of water damage, and not so much about the actual process of sealing the jar.

      Its a gray area, I agree. So I can see how you might think the big picture could relate to YS. But, they were talking about metal detectors and the act of prohibiting, rather than the park itself.

      LOL Welcome to my head. Space available for leasing… Just located in a high traffic zone.

      • Hey Seeker,

        I agree that context is important. But I also like to keep an open mind and consider the possibility that sometimes a subtle hint could be just that. A subtle hint.

        LOL…..We’re talking about Fenn here!

        While I don’t subscribe to YNP as the final location for treasure, I can appreciate that YNP is a very special region, for a very special reason, in a big picture kind of way.

        Does it connect to the poem? That is for each searcher to decide for themselves.

        Anyways, just another great big, thought provoking, ground breaking kind of idea…..all in the grand scheme of things.

        All IMO,
        SRW

        • Ha! yep,

          I thought YS could be involve, even the chest being within it’s boundaries… I’m just not so sure about now.
          My thought was about warm involved with a color, because Brown was capitalize for some reason.. maybe to emphasize Brown being a color and a place related to that clue.. like the mud pots in YS, for example.
          Which gave me the idea of “in love with Yellowstone” as comfortable color – YS lake… waters that are still/halt and partly fed by hot springs.
          Anyways, that was an attempt to hint the book to death.

  42. Ignore the nouns at your peril. Why are nouns more important than action verbs or descriptive adjectives? Has anyone dealt with this?

    • Hi Saun,

      Good point.

      For me, I focus on nouns as just places or things (I don’t have any people in my solve). But I also don’t disregard the verbs or the adjectives either (I don’t think we can). The adjectives are what tell me exactly what I’m looking for (places and things) and the verbs tell me exactly what to do when I get there.

      LOL…..I’m trying to use em’ all. Every last one of em’.

      That’s just how the poem seems to be working for me.

      Good luck,

      All IMO
      SRW

    • Hey Saun,

      I’ll add one more thing that does bug me about the nouns. As I’m sure you know, many of the words in the poem can be used in different ways. Some words can be used in the form of a noun, pronoun, verb, adverbs, etc. My biggest struggle is which way is the correct way to interpret those particular words. What definition does Forrest need us to understand in order to advance in the poem?

      Yea, That has been a tough one for me.

      Are you noticing the same thing?

      All IMO
      SRW

      • IF what I’m thinking is correct, and IF my botg plays out, there are double, even triple, entendres here. Head hurt getting to this point.

        • Saun M, I think you are exactly right about double and triple entendres. My WWH is a place where warm water does in fact halt (stop), but at that spot, there is warm water and a railroad halt (noun – train stop without a depot). Take it in the canyon down = go down AND south into the canyon AND take in the beautiful scenery Not far but too far to walk = not far (but synonym is butt (noun – archery term for target) butt (target) 24.2 walk. I think F is giving us very specific instructions. Nigh = near and left. Just = exactly and right. Does my solve sound similar to yours?

          • I got tired of being outstanding in other people’s fields and tried something different. Another dimension so to speak. To your question, a partial yes, and I MAY have gotten past the roadblocks of the hob and blaze. We’ll see.

  43. I have yet to see “merge” as a definition of “halt”, after spending a lot of time using a dictionary in the context of this treasure hunt. But I don’t have anyone’s chest in my hands right now.
    All IMO.

    • I would agree that merge and halt are not direct synonyms but the action of halting and taking it in the canyon down, could very well be describing a merger.

    • Tall Andrew,
      I doubt there is such a definition. I think the idea is more about one waterway that has a supple of ‘warm’ water [ a hot spring that empties in to it, idea] merging with another water that doesn’t, to mean WWsH as the merging of the two waterways.

      My biggest problem with this theory is… how far away would that hot spring be, from where the merging takes place, to be to consider a single waterway being warm. We don’t have a degree in temperature to go by, so I would assume the spring would need to be near by.

      I’m not thrill of about the idea or theory, but you can see how halt would simply be a waterway that has a heat source, having that warming affect stopped by a normally cooler waterway that doesn’t have a heat source. Hence the need for waters to be plural, line of thinking. But still, how does this idea narrow down any single place in the mountain range? It would still be a dart toss guessing game on where to start.

      So just for fun.. if this theory was the correct idea… we would still need to know the location of the all the clue’s references [not deciphered clues, just where we need to be to find them] to even start looking for this type of WWsH.

      Is that the riddle in the poem? a type of tenth clues… know the location, before even starting the deciphering, of the path we need to take?

      • I don’t think a dart toss is the way to go, but I also do not believe that we need to know the location of all of the clues to get to the right WWWH. The first stanza possibly outlines a big picture of what we need to look for. We find this and then find WWWH in the big picture of stanza 1, is my thought.

        • Aaron,

          I get it… But if stanza 1 doesn’t have a clues then stanza 1 might imply the – hint of riches new and old – are the help we get in the book.
          To clarify; the book helps the ideas of revealing the location for the hunt, rather than the idea of individual clues.
          This might be why so many readers of the poem cans see differently locations in the poem itself… the location of the clues may not actually be in the poem. Hence the book can help with the clues but the book itself can’t get you to the chest, and clues get you closer to the treasure.

          The idea might imply the same thing when fenn said;
          Need to know where to start.
          And
          Need to start at the beginning.

          Are those two comments of the same thing or is one saying;
          Certainty of the “location,” beforehand.
          And the other referring to;
          Begin your “path” with the first clue.

          Warning us the path would not be direct [ the clue’s references ] without certainty of the location beforehand [ where the clues are at ].

          Just more rambling and rumbling………

          • Not sure how you reach the conclusion you have regarding the book, knowing that we supposedly only really need the poem and a map.

            As far as “Certainty of the location, beforehand”, we have to ask if the first stanza gives us enough information for to solve the first clue. Can we find something that goes alone into something and has natural treasures (old)? If so could this thing be hiding the secret, or location of treasures new? If find something that matches that and then am able to find a place WWWH on this something, should that give us enough confidence?

          • Seeker…India girl has over a million miles on the odometer by now, however, she only had the poem and some map of the US Rocky Mountains and could get the first two clues.?
            Folks on the ground were at the first two clues and went past the treasure? WTH went wrong?

          • Ken,
            In one scenario, They left the poem… right? That could mean they left the locations of the clues. I think if falls to the idea of misunderstand NF,BTFT as ‘only’ a movement and distance, rather than, the idea of telling us what we need to see or know of is; not far, but if we go there… we walked too far away from where we need to be. [state in a poetic manner]

            Just because we can decipher a clue as a physical place doesn’t mean we have to go to that physical place. Again, where is the observational part, where does it come into play?

            In one scenario, anyways…
            Follow, lead, take it in, put in… physical movements or instruction?? [ all those words and phrasings have definitions and meaning usages for both a physical movement or an visual task.]

            Which one seems to work with what we know of [ searcher actions on site- as best as we can understand by the information we have ]?
            3rd and 4th clues stumbled at.
            Left the poem.
            Went by reaming clues.
            Walked past the chest.
            Marry the clues to A place on a map.
            Clues are contiguous.
            Plan and observe.
            A need to be on site to solve the poem…
            Note; for me a ‘solve’ is not retrieving the chest. That’s the lure and the prize for attempting the challenge. A solve is a completion of finalizing the clues as intended… fenn himself had to complete the poem… from clues he created. That alone speaks volumes on what kinda process we really need to examine ourselves.

          • Actually Seeker…my query/idea was in direct response to what you said above in response to Aaron…so related to both you and he. I believe that the *information* is all in the poem as Fenn has indicated directly. I also believe that the first stanza is not a throw away by any stretch of the imagination… as Fenn has also indicated[risky to discount]. The first Q that comes to mind is [where is IN THERE] ? Possibilities immediately jump out that perhaps this is related to the first clue? Keeping in mind that Fenn has said to figure out what the clues say, then [go to the first clue]… then they’re contiguous after that; the poem probably coughs up the starting place. I think little Indie needs a better[more detailed] map in the area of the first two clues in order work out where to go from there.
            Also…I’m not inclined to skip right into thinking [planning and observing] is all about having to be physically there to do that. Usually planning is *beforehand*… yes/no?

          • Agree with everything you said Ken. As far as the planning, my thoughts about this go along with the little indie quote. It is possible that we need to plan for searching a few different directions with BOTG. One may be more obvious and lead one to pass the remaining 7 clues. Plan, and prepare the possibility of different routes while on site based on what is found.

          • Ken,
            Shouldn’t we now what to plan for? I would gather it’s more about something about the clues, and if so does this knowledge help with the clues deciphering?

            Aaron~ ‘Not sure how you reach the conclusion you have regarding the book, knowing that we supposedly only really need the poem {maps}’

            Basically all I’m saying is, the poem is only designed to get us ‘through the clues’ to the finish line. The blue print idea.
            The comment of all you need is the poem says;“All of the information you need *’to find the treasure’* is in the poem.
            We know the staring line is WWsH.
            But do we really know where in the RM’s the clues are at?
            So the idea is the book helps finding the clue’s location… then clues get to the chest.

          • I get your point Seeker, though we shouldn’t need the book at all. What hints are in the book that help with the clues are anyone’s guess, and there have been plenty of guessing.

          • Aaron;

            You seem to be stuck on the “Use the poem only” theme. If Forrest thought that you should ONLY use the poem why has he published about six or seven versions of this quote?

            : “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f

            True he says – “You can find the chest with just the clues,” but then he goes on to say: “but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f

            If these “Book hints” are not important why is Forrest pushing searchers in the direction of using the book to help finding hints that will help with the clues?

            They MAY be hard to find (I am still finding a couple of them after 40 months at this game), but the ones I have found have been vital to understanding the clues. JMO – JDA

          • JDA, you cannot possibly know for certain if the hints you found are even hints without finding the chest.

            I’m bringing up the poem and a map comments because Seeker is talking about needing the book. Sure it will help if you can figure out the hints, but it is not needed, or so we are told. It will be interesting to know if the finder, if there ever is a finder, used anything from the book to help.

          • Aaron;

            Not trying to beat a dead horse, but let’s examine your last post:

            JDA, you cannot possibly know for certain if the hints you found are even hints without finding the chest. – and you cannot possibly know for certain if the clues you found are even clues without finding the chest. – but you believe that they are, and you keep searching.

            I’m bringing up the poem and a map comments because Seeker is talking about needing the book.

            As well he should since Forrest says to use the book.

            Sure it will help if you can figure out the hints, – Sure it will help if you can figure out the clues – how is this any different?

            but it is not needed, – My quote says this statement is false – Forrest says that it is needed.

            or so we are told. – As I pointed out – “but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f
            Why not use the help that is offered. One can go from point “A” to point “B”, but it sure is easier if one uses a map. Why NOT use the tools available to you? Seems foolish to me to not use them, unless you either can not read a map, or are afraid of trying.

            It will be interesting to know if the finder, if there ever is a finder, used anything from the book to help.- If “I” am the one to find it, I assure you I have used every tool available – EVERY tool. – JMO – JDA

            ken

          • JDA, I found it odd that you signed the end of your post – ken

            Anyhoot, this quote sums up my thoughts on the matter:

            Q~ “Does somebody need to read your book to find the treasure or all the clues exist within the poem?” A~ “they don’t need to read my book,, but they need to read the poem. The book will help them, ** But they can find the treasure if they can decipher the clues that are in the poem.”

          • Aaron

            OOPS – Ya’ caught me not proof reading. The “Ken” was left over on my “Reply” screen from a previous post to Ken, and I didn’t notice it when I erased the “ken” post – Sorry.

            You may not need the “help” of the hints – and I wish you the very best.

            I personally need ALL the help I can get – JMO – JDA

          • Not really a question of needing them. It’s clear everyone searching could use hints. It is a question of correctly identifying them. There are so many things in the book that could be hints and nobody will know for sure if they are till it’s found. If there is something you found that helps you then I suppose we will find out. To stick with the subject. Is there a hint that you believe helps you with WWWH?

  44. It’s always a hard decision.
    Either turn on other people’s flashlight, or let them continue to eat their sandwich…

    • Not in my vocabulary. One would halt a vehicle before parking it.
      Parking typically includes ensuring that the vehicle is “in gear”, shutting off the engine and ensuring that the lights, radio, air conditioning are all off, and setting/applying the parking brake. You don’t park your vehicle in a driving lane when you halt for a red traffic light, do you? All in my opinion. Thank you in advance for your answer.

  45. Seeker, your question: How can we nail down the first clue, without guessing, and not use the rest of the or part of poem? Seems to me, we not not be able to.

    That has to be the only way. There is some guesswork involved but not necessarily about a location but instead the interpretation of the clues themselves. That will be the ‘when all the lines cross’ moment, when the interpretation of the clues to the locations match one after the other. At some early point that process failed for those few who were close, hence ‘they left the poem’.

    What is your best guess as far as a ‘complete’ first clue? Should the 1st stanza explain what the beginning, the IT, the warm, the waters, or the halting is??? Or, do you still think it is the canyon down that completes the first clue? Maybe something else later in the poem?

    • Hi OZ10;

      I am not Seeker, but I will stick my nose in.

      For me, the first clue is:

      “Begin it where warm waters halt – a place
      And take it in the canyon down, – a direction
      Not far, but too far to walk.” – a distance.

      All three elements needed to make a complete clue.

      Where to find this location? Poem, TTOTC and VERY subtle hints in TFTW and OUAW. Also needed, a good map and/or Google earth, and a BASIC understanding of geography. Can I add, a bit of common sense and a bit of imagination? All of these elements together = (I hope) the correct WWWsH – Just how I see it – JDA

      • JDA,

        Allow me to stick my nose in for a sec.
        You said;
        For me, the first clue is:
        “Begin it where warm waters halt – a place
        And take it in the canyon down, – a direction
        Not far, but too far to walk.” – a distance.

        Umm, are they not all clues that could possibly give a single answer? I just keep thinking about; how many clues gives us a needed part of the puzzle?
        In a word; Synergy: the whole is greater than its individual part… how many parts do we need for a single reference to be workable?
        These are clues we read in the poem, not answers, right?

    • LOL, Oz,

      Your asking for a novel size response… but I like the question.
      ~What is your best guess as far as a ‘complete’ first clue?
      The simplest answer in my mind, without a whole lot of examples and comments etc.
      This whole thing might revolve tightly around how we understand WWsH.. meaning, I really don’t care if I can figure out what HLnWH might “refers to”… I need to understand how it “connects to” WWsH… and any/all other clue{s}.

      The above comment is full of it… opinions, I mean.

      I like the question, Oz. We truly do need to understand ‘completely’ what WWWsH is all about… or we have nothing. But we have been told that from the start, right?

      • Seeker – Another metaphorical theory:

        Forrest spent his Summers in West Yellowstone from a very young age until 1950, when he joined the Airforce. Well, there was that Summer just before, when he and Donnie Joe worked here in Sun Valley for the Union Pacific. I think their rail pass was free to get here and back there, btw.

        So the ‘warm waters’ of youth (making an umbilical connection), where dreams and fantasies played, came to an abrupt ‘halt’ for Forrest (common military term). Memories of fishing his favorite holes on the Firehole and Madison Rivers probably sustained him during his most terrifying moments, while serving in Vietnam..

        I imagine Forrest felt he must complete his endless missions, going ‘canyon down’, in that year prior to his rescue on December 20, 1968, ‘come Hell or high water’. His everyday existence was about dropping ‘heavy loads’ to stop the enemy in Vietnam.

        Maybe this is what Forrest meant by wanting us to understand? His ideal Summer world certainly did a 180° flip.

        I have tried to read the Poem both literally and figuratively, with respect to who I have come to know Forrest to be. Maybe that is what Forrest meant by suggesting we would have ‘nothing’ if we don’t understand WWWH ‘completely’?

        All IMO.

  46. I agree with JDA…. a clue consists of a place and a direction to go from that place to the next clue. The direction from WWWH (clue # 1) to Home of Brown (clue #2), then from HOB through No Place for the Meek to the creek where there’ll be no paddle(clue #3) that goes to the heavy loads and water high. But before water high you must have been wise and found the blaze (clue #4) and looked quickly down your quest to cease. Just take the chest (clue #5) and go in peace. Clues #6, #7, #8, and #9 have locations and directions to go but are much more complicated. They are also repeated more than once. All in my opinion.

  47. Curved Balls, Fast Balls, Knuckle Balls. Sliders, and Spit Balls have whizzed across the plate for ten years and nobody had hit a home run.
    The grammar geeks have been endlessly playing paddy-wack with the Kings english and searching for syllables and words that have double meanings. Maybe not in outhouses means KNOT in outhouses!.

    After many cryptologists have said that the poem to not a transsubstanchation cyper and consists of many uncommon colocial venakual references…..that the poem was written with not having a solve..

    The next ten years I hope people will invest as much time helping to solve global warmer / better relationships with others globally / helping to insure fresh drinking water to all the remote ends of the earth. / feeding the multitude who suffer hunger around the world. / Growing gardens to share with those in need.

  48. Let’s clear something up for everyone before this gets redundant quickly. It’s about needing the TTOTC book and not just using the poem. In the beginning, Fenn said all you need is the poem and a good map. He later said, many times, that the book has hints that can help decypher the poem.
    Now 9 years later, the treasure is still out there. You are looking for a million $ treasure and you are not going to buy and open a 35$ book to help you out? That costs less than the gas you will pay for just one BOTG (assuming the place you are looking for isn’t walking distance from you).
    Regardless of how sure you are about your solve, are you ready to go BOTG many, many times instead of pinning down solves, before heading out, that relate to the poem AND the hints in his book.
    My first solve fit like a glove to all clues and any comment Fenn ever gave, as do many other searcher’s solves. Unfortunately it was not there. I have ordered the book, since this is next logical step if you are serious at all.
    What will give you the winning solve is when you have pinned down “the” WWWH needed and followed it down. Remember there are hundreds of possible WWWH.
    Last thing: if you insist on not using the book, that is your own choice. 350000+ searchers and you think you’re gonna solve this with the poem only? Enjoy your nature walks.

    • Peasy, I have read the book more than once, like many others. It hasn’t helped me or anyone else yet, but who knows something might some day.

      • I can’t wait to get mine. I have combed Susie Fennhaven’s videos when she reads from his books and see hints right away. I might think differently than most. Poor Susie, she needs to compare with the poem more often.

        • Here is the problem with the “hints” in the book. They are buried in mis-directions and your ability to detect/parse them is clouded by confirmation bias. 6 cats, five squirts and Urracca Mesa; Red Black Green and trail 205; A Buffalo named Cody; Robert Redford DID write a book; Wrong Plot described; Postmarks; Borders with and without an apostrophe; and on, and on, and on. I had a 4 digit road number in mind, and I found it (not in the squiggles). I know the chest isn’t at the end of that 4 digit road (doesn’t fit in other ways), but, the number is in the book.

          I mean, really, how can the chest be anywhere other than NM with a hint like 6 cats, 5 squirts?

          To get back on topic, if WWWH is hinted in the book, and is a water feature, how can it be anywhere other than YNP? It then becomes “which feature?”, “which canyon?”, “which HOB?” lead you to Forrest’s special place, in that region, that is his alone.

          mBG

    • Peasy,

      I just came across the term “book purist”. I guess something different than “poem purist” which I see tossed around a lot. Apparently there are at least some (myself included) who believe you use the book to find the treasure. Personally, I do not believe you can find it without the book.

      Of course, the big question is how you use the book, what parts you use, and what you glean from it. I think there you will have searchers adamantly disagreeing.

      It seems to me the current rage is the idea that after the 1st two clues you must be BOTG to find the chest. I completely disagree with this and think the book helps to get much closer to the hiding spot. JMHO

      Have fun when you get the book. There is much to digest.

      TH

      • T. Hunter,

        Send those “after the first two clues you must be BOTG” searchers to me. I’ll poke a hole in their theory since no one that I have seen seems to have interpreted one of Fenn’s quotes the way it should’ve been. It’ll blow their mind.
        After all he is the king of double entendre.

        • Peasy;

          You are making “Factual” statements like you have found Indulgence. Since I have heard no such proclamation from Forrest, I can only assume that what you say is “Opinion” and not “fact” – and that is MY opinion – JDA

          • O.K. JDA,
            What single quote from Forrest has made searchers think that they needed to go BOTG after clue # 2?

          • JDA, one comes to mind: if you are walking long distances in search of the treasure, you are walking too far.
            This can be interpreted as to having a long distance to walk. If clue 2 is the canyon, wouldn’t you have already walked pretty far? To think after that you have a long distance to walk would be borderline impossible for an 80 year old man. Unless he had another form of transportation other than a car.
            Making searchers think they had to be BotG, well, not down then up then back down the canyon might make searchers think that they are walking from the first clue. Following all the clues, no shortcuts, take your pick. A lot can make a searcher think that they are to start at the first clue.

        • So poke… BotG is being on site. From first to last, what will you be poking? There are valid reasons to think that the actual BotG starts at the first clue. If forrest drove passed the second clue, then on his second trip, if done on the same day, he would take a shortcut. So I’m guessing you think that he took two trips on separate days. Nothing wrong with that either, it’s just very difficult, if not impossible to poke holes on someone’s solve if they are starting their walk from the first clue. There are just too many references to starting the walk at the first clue. So poke away, so we can poke away on your poking away.

  49. Aaron;

    The thread is getting too long, so I will reply here. You ask if I have found a hint(s) that tell me where the correct WWWsH location is. The short answer is “Yes.” I have had my same WWWsH location since the beginning. I used logic to find it. I also used an obscure definition of “in the wood” that sent me to a specific geographic feature in Wyoming. From there finding my WWWsH location was pretty easy – BUT – recently I have found “hints” in TTOTC, TFTW and OUAW that (to me) confirm that I am at the correct WWWsH. These same “hints” could have led me to my WWWsH location had I found them (and recognized them as hints) when I first started my search.

    As you say, I will not know for sure until I find Indulgence.

    The “Hint” in TTOTC provided me with a description of my WWWsH area, as well as a described distance from a known geographical feature. The TFTW hint gave a “General Description” of my WWWsH location. But, this general description could fit many places – not just mine. OUAW and TFTW both used the same two words to describe a specific geographical feature that is found at my WWWsH. This geographical feature is found at many locations, not just my WWWsH location, but it is important to my WWWsH location.

    Clear as mud right? Hope this helps, but at the same time, I hope that my answer is accurate, but not very revealing – Just like Forrest’s hints – Just how I see (read) it – JDA

    • I like your approach!!!

      I sit here wondering if you have the correct approach and what the two words are? How about giving those up for scrutiny since they can be interpreted to fit “many places.”

      I know you have said you are looking at word meanings, so I was interested to see what your take is? ff has said that every word was placed in the poem, so why start with “As?” This is what got me thinking because he could have left off the word “As” unless it is helpful. So if “As” was placed there specifically it either means something specific or it was needed for the overall word count, but wait ff could have still left off the “As” and left off the ‘ in “there’ll or you’ve.” ff said if you don’t know where indulgence is go back to the beginning of the poem. ff also wrote his last line in a story and said: “I wrote this someplace a few years ago and maybe you’ll think it is worth remembering, imagination isn’t a technique. it’s a key.”

      So I have used that story as a basis.

      I have taken the first stanza and looked at meanings of words, but not a single word but several put together. I will try to give you an idea because I know you have looked up every word in the poem. The first stanza says:

      AS (Why start with As) = At the same time or while
      I = I
      have gone = traveled
      alone = first
      in there = inside
      and with = accompanied with
      my treasures bold = my parents??????

      I think the only way to solve the poem is to be open and hopefully it will provoke a winning solve by someone.

      BDM

        • Peasy;

          Treasure = cherish
          bold = confident and courageous.

          Do we not cherish our confident and courageous parents? I did when they were alive – Just a thought – JDA

        • “My treasures bold” I was using my imagination. Think about it……..what is your biggest treasure? ??

          Really think about it?

          It is why ff wrote his TTOTC…………ThInK?///

          Did you figure it out???

          Think????

          ff alludes to it in the book TTOTC and in 100’s of comments and interviews. How did he survive cancer? Look at who FF is and his attitude toward the world. Before and after cancer. Have you ever known a flyboy???? This eats him to his core and is why this whole treasure chest was put in place and not because of his treasures, not a flyboy. Once ff had cancer he was mortalized!!!! Like a slap in the face.

          I have a whole bio, personal make up of what makes ff tick. There I go again giving my opinion, so remember two things: it is only MY OPINION and I HAVE NEVER BEEN WRONG!!! 🙂

          Okay I won’t give it all away……

          Did you figure it out?????

          So Treasures = Family (This is why “treasures” is plural)

          Bold = “Grand” parents

          I am almost 1/2 way through the poem and each line does not seem to get any easier. And WWH is not what you would think it was.

          I am getting closure,
          BDM

      • Hi New Way of Thinking;

        Thanks – It works for me.

        Two words = Fault Line Yes, fault lines are found everywhere in the Rockies – At my WWWsH site there is a fault line that is important. Were there not to be a fault line here, a major “theme” of my solve would not work.

        Why “AS”? As = Since. Since I have gone alone in there – You too should be alone. This is a warning. Also it is telling us (the searchers) to look for a very narrow place that only one person can enter. We do not yet know what or where this narrow place is, but we need to be prepared for it – both with knowledge, and possibly a “flashlight and a sandwich”.

        As you say, I doubt that it was word-county related. Too many ways to get around that.

        You said :”ff said if you don’t know where indulgence is go back to the beginning of the poem” – I do not believe that this is correct.
        Here is the quote you want:
        “If you don’t know where it is, go back to the first clue.” f – See the difference? You say to go back to “As I have gone…” Forrest says to go bact to : “Begin it where…” BIG difference (At least to me.)

        As = Since
        I have gone = past tense – Past action – In the past, I went somewhere
        Alone = Just me, no others – “My place alone”
        In there = inside a small space – a place that only one person will fit into
        and with = accompanied by
        my treasures bold = Memories – Memories of childhood, Memories of young adulthood, Memories of Peggy, Memories of Vietnam, memories of this place. This place too has memories dating all the way back to the creation of earth – Memories of the time this area was an inland sea, memories of when it was a desert, Memories of when a glacier carved this valley – Memories….

        “I think the only way to solve the poem is to be open and hopefully it will provoke a winning solve by someone.” – I agree – Thanks for posting and sharing – JDA

          • Ahh ya know me JDA, mentally starving. After a three year hiatus. I can now focus on finding Indulgence.
            Special Thanks to Forrest for encouraging me to follow a
            40-year-old dream. I am now the proud owner of a 2400sqft home in the Mojave desert. Still grabbing every banana. 🙂

      • A New Way of Thnking (and tangentially JDA)

        I have also been studying Stanza 1 recently with the hope of discovering something new to me. None of them really clicks so far, but perhaps they will for someone else:

        “As”–since, in the same manner as, while, in the role or guise of

        “As I have gone”–Since I am no longer here/there

        “gone alone”–in the sense that I have become alone, or been rendered alone (like “gone crazy”)

        Anagram fun: could “I” be the answer to a word game where:
        “gone alone” is found within the answer
        adding “my” yields something meaning “treasures bold”
        (with variations. I came up with “Monarch”, but so far it doesn’t help me much)

        I noticed that lines 3 and 4 of Stanza 1 could refer to a single word (“intimate”), and wondered if the same could apply to lines 1 and 2, and thus be used as a guide to solve more of the poem. Not coming up with much there so far.

        Since I’ve seen references to finding where all the lines cross, I’ve tried to come up with “line” words everywhere I can (this is where your “fault lines” caught my attention, JDA). Single file (alone in there) is a line, of course, but there’s also:

        For WWWsH: coastline, shoreline, alkaline, saline, waterline and similar
        TIITCD: decline, tramline, towline
        NFBTFTW: clothesline(?)

        Just thoughts and doodling, and all in my opinion and to the best of my knowledge.

        • Kate, I suggest you google “have gone”. You will see:

          You will find that it is a present perfect tense and refers to someone who has gone to a place but has but not yet returned.

          Forrest googled words and so should we.

          • Aaron—-

            it depends on how it is used. One could say “As I have gone alone in there I have often beheld my friend Smitty having a Coca Cola”.

            This infers he “has gone” in there several times. This implies he has returned each time also.

          • I’m still stuck on the fence about using [As I] to begin with. It seems awkward and draws attention to [I] right out of the gate. I’m no grammar expert that’s for sure. There are rules in proper grammar…however, this is a poem and there are no rules.

          • Ken,

            That’s the magic of a poem… it doen’t need to follow PC or Proper grammar. A poem is always for interpretation of the reader.
            In this poem, fenn need to add some elements… directions, instructions, points, call it what you will… to have someone follow his designing of clues.

            Begin it where, can be of time past and of present day result of that time past.
            Like; “Once upon a while” ago this took place where we stand today.

          • That’s true to a certain extent Seeker. I think in this particular instant that [I] is exactly what “Fenn” is drawing attention to. Notice my quote marks on Fenn. The double clause following kind of follows the rule…and then backed up by the next [I] beginning the third sentence affirms it again. My immediate Q after starting the poem with [As] is the phrase[in there]. *There* seems to be a noun preceded by the preposition *in*.
            Allowing that this is a poem and the rules don’t necessarily apply…these [things] do kind of tickle a bit, and I can’t really see jumping into the Time Machine right out of the gate because that’s what I may need to further prove an idea.

          • Hi Oz,

            “If you are brave and in the wood…(you get the title to the gold).” Is this an extremely veiled location???

            After all, we are told to read the poem over and over again, which to me implies that it is intended to loop. If it were genuinely a loop, (like a circle) it would have no beginning – or it would begin where you choose to start.

            I would say the poem begins at the end AND WWWH is still the 1st clue.

          • Hello ED, I mentioned that before, the looping I mean. That is what I get from the ‘effort will be worth the cold’.

          • Hi, Ethical…. I think if you get ‘brave & in the wood’ you also get a title to the poem. I think it might also serve as an epitaph for the two omegas…. and it some how relates to the last sentence on page 57.

      • NewWay ~
        AS (Why start with As) = At the same time or while
        I = I
        have gone = traveled
        alone = first
        in there = inside
        and with = accompanied with
        my treasures bold = my parents??????

        As can work in many manners of usage here.
        As can relate to the idea of many times before.
        *As I have done before,* line of thinking.

        As and I can also introduce another. ” i ” basically means knowledge of self. IF fenn was attempting to use another person as someone who went some where… the line could read, for example, *AS John as gone alone in there*… without actually telling the readers who. The idea here is “i” would be an ancestor or “our” descendant… The first of us [humans] to go alone in there. “Alone” means “first” in this idea.

        IF these meaning of word choices were used in a poem { the avenue fenn chosen to present the clues } interpretation is need just because it is a poem.
        With that said; the line “and with my treasures bold” can be of possession of who ever ” i ” represents… {i} treasures… thing that are important to that person.

        IF any of those meaning and Idea were to be true in solving the challenge, it might be that we are looking at this the wrong way believing the first stanza is about forrest fenn. This raises question of stanza 5. Why have this stanza at all IF fenn already told us he did something and now is telling us again what he did. The kicker might be the question its self; “So why is it “I” must go..”
        ” I ” now relates to fenn and he is doing the same as “i” did before him… leaving his trove.

        “AS” seems a need word and might have been very deliberate… I [ me ] personally would dismiss it at all.

        But for fun I’ll ask: does “AS” have anything to do with with WWsH-?- and “i” AS in the past?
        If we think about riches new and old… the idea might be about time past and time now, and even time in the future [ archeology time-set of learning, knowledge, of ourselves ] The past information we discover from “i” and that persons ‘trove” to “I” and his trove we seek, [the add bio]… down the road.
        **Knowledge of self**…. doesn’t have to be *self knowledge ~ [singular] alone ~ [ by itself ].*

        Just rambling and rumbling and analyzing.

        • Good points Seeker.

          I’m beginning to believe that there is personification going on here between FF in the 5th stanza, and something else in the first. In the 5th stanza FF could be saying that his path to hide the treasure is similar to the path of this thing in geography that went alone in there, and is still there. It is tricky because while it sounds like on the surface it is all about FF, he could have used a comparison along with personification in stanza 1 to help us find WWsH.

          • Aaron,

            I’d like to know your idea of; ‘his path to hide the treasure is similar to the path of this thing in geography that went alone in there, and is still there.’

            I have a few scenarios running in my thought, but the ‘still there’ you said kinda implies the same exact thing. I’m just curious because i can see that idea myself, but, I can see the remnant of that thing as something else… something other searchers indicated but may not have understood, why or, the next steps in the process of deciphering later clue’s references.

            In one scenario the entire poem is all about HLnWH being the result of “begin it where” as past time, and HLnWH now present day… the same ‘related thing’ only over time has changed.

        • I like the way you think. My opinion and yours are very closely related. So your “ramblings” helped me to think in new ways and that is appreciated. I differ with you at the very end. I believe no outside source of material is needed outside of your imagination. Every time I start looking at the poem, I immediately want to jump on the computer and flyby a specific location that seems to fit in my mind. I have spent years along with ten-of-thousand of others searching locations or material that I thought were shortcuts only to find myself right back where I started.

          Enough of me rambling, be safe!

          BDM

          ps good luck

      • I simply take AS to mean, SINCE or BECAUSE. A word is needed there, because he is essentially saying, **since i have acted alone, i can keep my secrets and give you hints**. Whether you can substitute SINCE or BECAUSE is a different story. Perhaps AS is needed for letter count, or meter or some other reason.

        • Yellowdog,

          Precisely.

          Forrest had said: To answer some questions and save others from being asked, I did follow the clues in the poem when i hid the treasure, but I hid the treasure before the poem was complete (completed). (paraphrased).

          What that statement seems to imply is that there were parts of the poem that were written after he returned from hiding the treasure. And due to the tense of the first stanza it may have been written after he had gone and returned from hiding the chest. As I have gone alone in there….I can keep my location a secret and provide you cryptic information to follow to its whereabouts.

          Seannm

          • Seannm, you said: I can keep my location a secret and provide you cryptic information to follow to its whereabouts.

            The question right after is what kind of cryptic information? If I say I have gone alone somewhere and I will keep that secret location to myself but will hint of -riches new & old- you need to ask, how is that going to help me find that secret location? what is riches new and old anyways? That may be a reason why ff said we have to ‘learn’ where warm waters halt.

    • I like your thought process. Thinking like this can lead to some answers. The words could have different meanings though too and can lead us to different answers. For instance “have gone” implies something or someone that is still there. Could “As I” point us to something else in the poem taking the same path, such as “it”?

      Keep thinking new things!

  50. You could be hearing from the lead dog, sometimes I can’t keep my mouth shut, OK look at it this way. Without messing with the poem do what the poem says and listen to what it says to, after this you tell me “WHERE” the secret hiding place is, begin reading where it says to, begin IT where warm waters halt……. Keep reading, at the point of says look quickly down your quest to cease. Now what quest do you want to finish? The poem right….. Now read the first part like he is talking to us, As I have gone alone in there and with my treasures bold, I can keep my secret where and a hint of riches new and old, begin it where warm waters halt……… Think you.

    • Hi JohnR;

      The answer is yes and no. To the best of my knowledge Forrest has never stated that a particular his would help with WWWsH – BUT – He says that there are hints in the book that will help with the clues (plural) and he has said that the first clue is BIWWWH – So in a round-about-way Yes, he has said that the hints help with clues and “A” clue is WWWH. You be the judge.

      Personal opinion – Yes, I think that there is at least one clue in TTOTC that helps with locating the correct WWWH – But what do I know? Probably nada – JDa

      • Hi JDA
        Thanks for your response and opinion. So which page do you think the hint is on? Jk lol.

        You’re probably right though.
        He said to start with wwwh, and it would be _____ to give hints to later clues and ignore the first.

        Just curious if most think waters means h20 or tears or rivers etc. I’ve been trying to find a definition of waters that means “life”. I swear it’s a meaning but can’t seem to find it. Kinda like “the waters fine” expression. Maybe. But I did find the boots definition. Anyways maybe tmi.

        • Waters – Wikipedia

          https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Waters

          Waters may refer to: A body of water · Waters (name), a surname; Waters (band), an American band; Waters (magazine), a financial technology magazine …

          WaterS can mean ANY body of water. To me it involves two water sources coming together.

          Maybe this will help: (Check Amazon.com)
          Water of Life-Water of Death: The Folklore and Mythology of Sacred Waters
          by Gary R. Varner (Author)

          Hope this helps – JDA

          • Perfect. Thanks. Begin the chase at the spot comfortable life stops for awhile (summer ends and back to school). So I was thinking an exit of Yellowstone. But we travel back into Yellowstone. Just start at the exit (or entrance).

          • But the entrance thing doesn’t work because Mr. Fenn said there are many places week and most are in the search area. So a few must be not in the search area and all the entrances to Yellowstone are in the search area. Rats!

          • JDA, if you click on the link in the wikipedia “waters” article to the “body of water” article, it contains this interesting statement:
            “Note that there are some geographical features involving water that are not bodies of water, for example waterfalls, geysers and rapids. ”
            I tried verifying this but could not. If this is true, waters would end (halt) whenever they came to a waterfall, a geyser or a rapids.
            I am not saying that this is true, or that Forest Fenn ever thought about it. Just another thing to muddy the waters.

          • Hi Bob;

            Thanks – Interesting. If this interpretation is correct it helps verify my WWWsH – JDA

          • If I had a dollar for every time your solve was verified by some wild theory I wouldn’t need the treasure (IMO of course)

        • JohnR, the operative word Forrest used when he said hints were/was SPRINKLED in the Thrill Book, so how many clues are in the poem….9 what was the weather like on Page 9?

          Why would Forrest Fenn, who according to Collected Books of Santa Fe, always and forever has been a loyal customer, yet he’s suddenly shopping at a big box store?, A big picture opens up when you know this, that store,which is no longer there was/is called what? Now get your hints in any ORDER, or perhaps Re order, or just call it a B-order, not back order, 2 days of rain were in order-ed sorta sprinkled in there, I would say “if it looks like a duck, quacks like a duck, waddles like a duck and it does not have lips it might be what…a hint. Where do ducks live, waters.

          Forrest has alluded to the idea that people over complicate the clues in his poem, and since we see that why would he over complicate the hints too, even the one that he insinuates are out on the edge or fringes, like sublime markers, they seem to be all wet IMHO. Even the tiny subliminal hints may be just itty bitty raindrops like tinny, tiny little biddies, like Miss Ford and the old iron fire escape rail…am I hope to get you on the right track? Now Tee this up for me what sign is Red Green and Black? Those signs could mean something in ff’s rainbow.

          TT Just messin wicha ….PS Stanza one Ask yourself why he said “As I have gone Alone, because he may have been there before with someone very special, his dad, Eric, Skippy and mom….who knows but if it is your last supper that may be where warm waters halt.

          • Thanks Tom – I appreciate your posts.
            I feel like I have been a “duck out of water” for a while.
            Time to get back on track, spread my wings, and paddle my silly web feet. Just gotta watch out for those dang hunters hiding out in the blinds waiting for me to take off.
            LOL – all IMO.

          • TT, you could be right and family could be involved in the poem. As one searcher stated, treasures bold could have something to do with family members. I tend to lean toward children or grandchildren more. I’ve noticed an interesting easter egg involving the SB’s and grandchildren.

  51. TT, if you all were playing pin the tail on the burro, I’d be yelling warmer, warmer, HOT!

    The family/grandkid thing is a revelation I had that was then confirmed by a location. It’s uncanny, I tell you…

    And once again, for anybody listening, I want to share that I believe WWWH is where ALL wwwh. Maybe think of it this way. There’s only one probability, not many.

  52. Why would one have to be bold in carrying that treasure? Perhaps it was not the ants ff had to face, maybe it was the ELEPHANTS?

    Forrest, You said you made two trips from your car to hide the treasure. Besides walking, did you use any other methods of transportation to get back and forth between the car and the hide? Thanks, Edgar

    Edgar, your wording of the question prompts me to pause and wonder if I can answer it candidly, yet correctly. Were all the evidence truly known, and I answered in the positive, you might say I was prevaricating, by some definitions of the word. And if I answered in the negative, you may claim that I was quibbling. So I will stay quiet on that subject. Thanks for the question anyway. f

    Hint, “Were all the evidence truly known,” Has any anyone ever said to you “In all honesty, I don’t want to answer and incriminating question that could come back to haunt me.” People who are under oath, do not say “In all honesty” why, because after that the answers to questions begin to look suspect, in hind sight Forrest is under an undisclosed oath, not to us but to himself…do not harm and do not mislead.

    Closely examine how ff states the deliverance of this statement, ” I said on the Today show that the treasure is not associated with any structure. Some people say I have a desire to mislead. That is not true. There are no notes to be found or safety deposit boxes to be searched. The clues can lead you to the treasure, and it will be there waiting when you arrive.”

    https://dalneitzel.com/2013/04/17/2071/

    I think luck has played a part in the real WWWH location simply because some had figured it out early, may be in 2011, as luck would have it, they did not recognize it in full color, the way that Halt was meant in Forrest’s Memoirs, a structure is what an Architect designs, so if he felt like an architect, how is this POEM not associated with a structure?

    I have IMHO found, as in past tense, as in this, the time of his memories and it works in my tinny tiny little brain, could be a terrific Idea to see it this way, then all the piece fit that structure,,,,,if we use time and have found the blaze.

    TT

    • TT,
      I think you hit the nail on the head…
      You said ~ ‘…in hind sight Forrest is under an undisclosed oath, not to us but to himself…do not harm and do not mislead.’
      Fenn used the words “Prevaricating” and Quibbling in response to Edgar’s question “… besides walking…”

      Should the idea of; climb, run, cross over something [ lets use stones in a small creek idea, being more like a hop then a walk], scale a small stone wall, or even crawl…etc. comes into play, and fenn attempted to be completely and fully clear [or even candidly]… folks would chew any answer to threads, regardless of the honesty intended of the answer.

      Both words are synonyms. Only the usages of one word to the other, would or could be meant as the opposite being a negative or positive answer.

      So, I agree with your analyzes of; ‘do not harm and do not mislead.’

      Is this why fenn chose to have this Q&A posted?
      I mean for example, when answering the kids [classroom] questions, he told them he would answer the question as they were presented.
      So, for fenn to answer Edgar’s question, how much elaboration would be needed, as an explanation for clarification, to a yes or no response-?- that fenn didn’t want to supply.

      Was this fenn’s point of posting this Q&A; politely saying; IF you try put me between a rock and a hard place, I can’t give a honest response?

      LOL I would love to ask fenn;
      Can the clue’s deciphered references be followed as intended on any given day of a year [any-365 days of a year] for a completed solve and retrieval of the treasure chest?
      But I’d think I’d have a rock or a hard dull bullet thrown at me, if I asked.

      • Seeker;

        You ask an interesting hypothetical question of Forrest :”Can the clue’s deciphered references be followed as intended on any given day of a year [any-365 days of a year] for a completed solve and retrieval of the treasure chest?”

        What do you gain by an answer?

        If Forrest says “Yes” – What have you learned?
        Answer – It is not in a place that gets much snow in the winter – MAYBE that it is at a lower elevation. These two bits of information might be helpful in eliminating a number of possible search areas.

        If he answers “NO” – What will you learn.

        It is secreted in 4 states 8.25 miles north of Santa Fe. A “NO” answer will not tell you very much in my estimation.

        I think that your “…and retrieval” is a critical part of your question. I MAY be able to find indulgence, even with a bit of snow on the ground, but it might be frozen in place, making retrieval difficult, if not impossible.

        Good question. One that will probably never be answered 🙂 – JDA

        • JDA,

          You seem to want an answer that narrow down an area the get you closer or how it’s possible to remove the chest. That’s not what I’m interested with this question.

          fenn has said a searcher need to be on site. I’m simply asking if a searcher can completely solve *the task* at hand *as the poem was intended to be followed* on any day…

          It doesn’t matter if it snows on July 4th, or sun shine and daisies and mud clear on December 25th [ on site ].

          The only note to date is; IF “*We Know* where the *Chest* is we can probably retrieve it in any weather”… is not the same as; getting through the correct solution on any given day of the year.

          • To add to that; fenn said; it won’t be a big job to retrieve the chest. So if there’s snow on the ground on any given searcher’s travel /hunt… retrieving the chest seem relatively easy in the rain, sleet, snow or maybe even the dead of night… but are we sure about the last part *while* we follow clues, line of thinking?

          • Hi Seeker;

            I am not sure I understand. you say: “… is not the same as; getting through the correct solution on any given day of the year.” What could there be in the poem that would “not work” on any given day of the year? Are you referring to “Closed off areas” due to snow in the winter – or something like that? Sorry, I just can’t see where there is anything in the poem that would lead you to a place that has no access – for any reason – during part of the 365 days of a year. Maybe I am being stupid this afternoon – 🙁 JDA

          • Seeker:

            OK – “but are we sure about the last part *while* we follow clues, line of thinking?”

            At my site. The most direct route to get to my WWWsH place requires that I walk around a slippery granite knob. It is Slippery if it has rained or there is snow on the ground. Is this “Most direct” route the only route? No, I can go down a little canyon and back up again to get to the WWWsH site. I am just getting to my WWWsH location. I have not yet started my actual way through the 9 clues to get to where I think Indulgence lies, so I do not think that this detour counts.

            Once at my WWWsH site, I start a VISUAL search.
            Since it is a visual search, I suppose that if it were VERY foggy, I MIGHT not be able to follow ALL of the clues with my eyes – So, this might be what you are talking about.

            I do not move from this WWWsH spot until I find my blaze. (Even if it is foggy, I will probably still be able to see it through the fog.) I THEN move, for the first time, to get to the base of my blaze, and to a very small area in which I think Indulgence rests. I can think of no point between going to the blaze, and finding Indulgence that would be restricted in any way, on any day, for any reason. That is just me … and my solve… So, MAYBE dense fog COULD restrict my going through the 9 clues – JDA

          • Hi Seeker,

            I totally get what you’re saying. The environmental conditions at the treasure site and the weather forecast for the day are two entirely different things. Yep, I believe that.

            All IMO.
            SRW

          • JDA ~’ What could there be in the poem that would “not work” on any given day of the year?’

            Forget weather altogether… not a factor to my question.
            To you question above… it also doesn’t matter “what” [ there’s no way fenn could or would answer that ] It’s more about; *can a solve be executed by any searcher any day of the years * as fenn intended the poem’s clues references as a completed solve*

            Just look at the question and leave out all the unknowns you are asking about.
            It’s all about the intended process of solve /solution as fenn designed it.
            Can it be done any day of the year [as fenn designed the blue print ]… it’s a simple question.

          • If Fenn answers yes to this Q… he opens the possibility of more folks taking risks and possibly getting into bad situations during the winter months or during other times of year when the weather patterns are not great. Tricky Q though…

          • Seeker;

            Sorry – I give up. You again say: “Can it be done any day of the year [as fenn designed the blue print ]… it’s a simple question.” My simple answer is “Yes”. Whether a visual search, or a point-to-point search, “Yes” I can follow my 9 clues – start to finish – any day of the year “IF” I can see at least two feet in front of my nose. – JDA

          • Even on “April Fools Day” – I could find and retrieve it, I just might not be believed if I said that I had found it 🙂 JDA

          • JDA, when did Fenn say you needed to be onsite, besides to find the chest itself??

          • Peasy;

            Not sure he ever said that exactly, but this is as close as I can come: :“Only the nine clues, in consecutive order, in the Poem, when understood and followed, leads a person precisely to the chest. The chest is a 10” x 10” x 5” antique bronze Romanesque lock box, and weighs about 42 lbs. The treasure consists of gold, valuable gems, ancient artifacts, and at least one surprise”. JDA

          • Peasy;

            Here is another that comnes close:

            Hi Fenn,

            I’ve read your wonderful books and they didn’t help me one iota. The poem with your precious 9 clues is ambiguous, which means absolutely worthless in my opinion. I don’t think the bronze box can be found using the information that is currently available. I have arm chaired this thing to death. Why don’t you give me something I can chew on?

            Thanks for nothing, Outta Here

            Well Mr. Outta There, I will give you something to chomp on.

            “Stop arm chairing that thing to death and get out in the trees where the “box” is, but before you go, look at the poem as if it were a map, because it is, and like any other map, it will show you where to go if you follow its directions. f Best I can do – JDA

      • SWR,

        LOL I may need to reword my question. I thought it was clear, but you and JDA seem to think it’s about weather.

        As simple as I can say it; Can following the correct solution be done on any day?
        Be it the first day of the calendar year through the last day of the same given year [12 months] [regardless of weather]

          • You’re the closest yet, Ken.

            I try to say to the others; rule out weather or anything else really- [bears, terrain, 8 dwarfs with pickaxes and shovels] but they seemed to be hung up on the condition of the site vs. the process of the clue’s.
            The original question doesn’t say anything about conditions of the site… it just talks about the clue’s workable, intended solve.

            To put it to a fine point on the matter… ‘Are the clues *only* workable on a certain day and/or couple of days, in a row, in any calendar year.
            Only fenn would never answer such a direct question, and my original question would probably be answered in the same manner as Edgar’s question.

          • Seeker,
            In MW there was
            “If I am convinced it has been found then I will announce it immediately to Dal and three major media outlets. It seems logical, that if someone solves the clues, they will retrieve the treasure immediately…”. I left out the rest which was some warnings and caveats about weather.

            That second sentence doesn’t seem to allow for a solve needing to be time specific. Maybe you can spot a loophole there that I’m missing.

            PS Bears and weather don’t scare me since they can be handled with appropriate precautions. But dwarfs are not to be trifled with. If you see one, immediately look behind you because the other 7 will be sneaking up on you.

        • If Fenn gave you a detailed map of exactly where the treasure is, I don’t think anything could stop you from retrieving it no matter what date in the year.

          • LOL Jake, If fenn gave us the answers [a detailed map of exactly where…] that would be very helpful.. right?

        • Seeker,

          That’s a trick question!

          Yes, you can follow the correct solution on any given day. Will you retrieve the prize? It depends on the day.

          Hope that helps.

          ALL IMO
          SRW

          • SWR,

            I was writing a response to your post above and then saw this on pop up…

            Maybe not ~ encounter *any number* of unforeseeable obstacles that could prohibit the full execution.
            But yes… an obstacle that might be hinder one or two clues of a full solve, line of thinking. Especially if this, in part, is an observational type of solve, or any part of it.

          • LOL I cut myself off… the last line should read; ‘or any apart of it that needs prior knowledge for planning.’

          • Seeker,

            you replied:

            “But yes… an obstacle that might hinder one or two clues of a full solve, line of thinking.

            Especially if this, in part, is an observational type of solve, or any part of it that needs prior knowledge for planning.”

            Yes. My thinking is that a searcher could potentially fall short, by just a few clues, due to possible circumstances beyond the searchers control.

            I think timing might matter. IMO.

            I’ll also add that these circumstances could probably apply to any one of the following types of solves:

            * an observational type of solve.
            * the planning portion of any solve
            * or even a closing the distance type of solve (your favorite, I know…..the stomp).

            The only other thing that I can think of that might factor into the concept we’re discussing is the difference between each searchers ideas of what the last few clues are.

            These are some good ideas, for sure.

            All IMO
            SRW

        • Seeker,

          I’d like to revise my answer to your question since your original question includes “retrieval of the treasure chest.” Still going with “regardless of weather”.

          You originally asked:

          “Can the clue’s deciphered references be followed as intended on any given day of a year [any-365 days of a year] for a completed solve and retrieval of the treasure chest?”

          My revised answer is as follows:

          No. The clues deciphered references cannot be followed, as intended, on any given day of the year.

          Here’s why. The possibility could exist where a searcher may or may not encounter any number of unforeseeable obstacles that could prohibit the full execution of a completed solve and/or retrieval of the chest.

          Yea…..that’s better.

          All IMO.
          SRW

        • Hey-O, Seek’ –

          “[regardless of weather]” begs the answer “No, you cannot successfully walk less than a few miles in a blinding snowstorm.”

          Did you mean your parenthetical to be [assuming okay weather]?

          If you’re trying to rule in or out a scenario like an archaeo-astronomical Brigadoon, I don’t see that as a useful question simply because I can’t see how such a scenario could possibly work here anyway.

          If not that, I’ll admit I’m not understanding what you’re really trying to narrow down with your question.

          JAKe

        • Seeker:
          Around and around we go. Can you give an example of one possible course of action that would be done differently or discarded due to his answer to your question. What specifically do you have in mind when you ask that? What path does it lead you down?

          mBG

          • One simple idea that a few have discussed in the past is the summer solstice… something planned for, something observed, line of thinking.

          • Seeker;

            I am confused – more-so than usual. You said:
            One simple idea that a few have discussed in the past is the summer solstice… something planned for, something observed, line of thinking.

            Earlier you said: Maybe not ~ encounter *any number* of unforeseeable obstacles that could prohibit the full execution.
            But yes… an OBSTACLE that might be hinder one or two clues of a full solve, line of thinking. Especially if this, in part, is an observational type of solve,
            or any apart of it that needs prior knowledge for planning.’

            Please explain how the Summer Solstice could be an OBSTACLE that might hinder one or two clues of a full solve…. How will prior knowledge or planning help. If it were an eclipse I could understand, but isn’t the Summer Solstice the longest day of the year? How will having more sunshine for a longer day be an OBSTACLE? I just do not understand.

            Thanks much for your help – JDA

          • Seeker;

            Wanted to make sure I was correct – I Googles “Summer Solstice”.
            summer solstice
            noun: summer solstice; plural noun: summer solstices

            The solstice that marks the onset of summer, at the time of the longest day, about June 21 in the northern hemisphere and December 22 in the southern hemisphere.

            Why the longest day? The summer solstice happens every year between June 20 and June 22 when the sun reaches its highest elevation in the Northern Hemisphere, making it the longest day of the year with a stretch of sunlight that lasts for 17 hours.

            How will the sun being at its highest elevation be an OBSTACLE? I would think it would be an advantage.
            Even if Indulgence is in a crevice, or under an overhang how would that hinder? MAYBE more in shadows, but I can not see where that would hurt.
            OKAY – If I go any time in June I will take a flashlight – I will be prepared – If that is what you are implying by your question.

            Thanks for the tip – JDA

          • I’m truly baffled this is so hard to understand, JDA.

            With an example of the Summer Solstice; it means the chest can only be located, using the clues in a manner that the sun’s angle on that day [ or days near that day ] can be utilized.

            One *thought* is the blaze itself. IF the blaze is used as a pointer, rather than a marker… a shadow cast from the blaze can be “observed” to lead one to the *10 inch sq spot.* This would require a certain amount of understanding how the poem might play out ‘beforehand’ a need to be on site, a need for planning a search, a need for observation of a clue or more.

            IF that could be the case.. then the solve can’t be solved correct any other day of the year.

            It also could be, in another scenario, A searcher needs to be at WWsH and something there need to be done on that same day to located hoB. { the same idea for the blaze, a shadow affect, or a sun rise even. }
            Example of a sun rise, idea:
            where the sun pops over the horizon on the more of the Solstice aligns with where hoB is, viewing from WWsH. Not far, but too far to walk might be saying, poetically…don’t walk, watch.

            SO, again, can the correct solve be done on any given day of a calendar year? { skip weather conditions. that is out of anyone’s hand.. be it fog, snow, or raining cats and dog…only nature has a say to what happens with that. }

          • I twirled that thought around in my head about using the sun to show the blaze or other clues back in 2016 and after further study I came to the conclusion that although it may be feasible, I think it is very unlikely because if your going to use a mountain top, ridge or peak as the shadow pointing to the blaze or other clues after a earthquake or landslide happened in that area, the sun shadow may no longer point the way and if you ever notice a shadow cast by a peak it is not a clean cut shadow line from a distance.
            Highly unlikely IMO.

          • Seeker;

            Thanks for the explanation. I see what you are saying, but I see that shadow, on Summer Solstice day (June 21) as an ADVANTAGE, not an OBSTACLE.

            So, if I can not make a search on June 21, but rather on (let’s say) June 15 instead; Are you saying that the shadow will have moved so much that it will not point in the “General Direction” of where Indulgence is secreted? The shadow has to be so precise that it works ONLY at 12:00 (noon) on June 21, or one will miss finding Indulgence? Sorry, I find that a wee bit of a stretch Seeker.

            But thanks for the explanation – I mean it sincerely – JDA

          • Jake,
            Earth quakes that can move a mountain can not be predicted, as much as, the idea of “the RM’s are still moving” and will have an impact a 1000 year down the road.
            This imply a more natural movement of up lift and erosion that is common because of where the range is located.

            I remember being asked a question from another blogger about the same idea… he asked what happen if a large meteor hits the planet? My answer was, who would care about the chest if a large meteor hits… I’d think that would be the last thing anyone would be concern about.

            However, IF the small movement of the range [ under geological norms ] can have an impact making it harder to solve /complete the total task… ya have to ask; why would a few inches, feet, even a number of yards have an impact?
            How precise is “precisely” needed to be?

          • These statement by Fenn doesn’t seem to suggest we need the sun to be in a certain position.
            “Second, I have not said that a searcher was closer than 12’ from the treasure. It is not likely that anyone would get that close and not find it.”

            “While it’s not impossible to remove the blaze it isn’t feasible to try, and I am certain it’s still there.”

            It’s impossible to remove the sun…. For us anyway.

          • Jake ~’It’s impossible to remove the sun…. For us anyway.’

            Where in my question, or better, where in any of my post is the sun called or implied the blaze?
            The blaze is an object [ on the ground ] that possibly cast a shadow. So the ATF [ the blaze is still there ] doesn’t pertain to the question.
            The 12′ ATF doesn’t imply as well. It was a correction a false quote to start with… and… IF the distance from the blaze to the chest is obvious, it could be [lets say] 50 feet away. We have no idea how far until the blaze is discovered. That 12′ leeway would or could imply any part of 50′.. so a searcher [ in theory ] be 30 or 40′ away and find the 10″ spot IF the discovered the blaze.

            Nice try, but no tootsies pop for you… Guess you’ll have to just enjoy your hat once more. Is there anything left of that poor thing?

          • Seeker: “where in any of my post is the sun called or implied the blaze?” — “that possibly cast a shadow.”

            You do need the sun to cast a shadow don’t you?
            You could possibly tie in the flashlight hint.

            Looks like that dumpster fire is burning bright enough to cast a shadow.

            None of you searchers have made me eat my hat yet and doesn’t seem possible considering the chest hasn’t been found and some of the possibilities get further and further away from reality.
            Advice: “Complicate if you can”.
            Doing a good job at it.

          • Seeker, there is also the equinox thing. In SB148 Fenn said this: “The autumnal equinox occurs on about the 24th of September. That’s when the sun is lined up with the center of the earth. Darkness and daylight are exactly twelve hours apart, and the sun rises due east and sets due west. The temperature begins a steady drop and the days start getting shorter. Those are the two changes I don’t like.”

            It’s weird he said the 24th? Certainly he knows it’s usually the 22nd or 23rd. The last September 24th equinox occurred in 1931, the next one will take place in 2303. Maybe you can only find it when the autumnal equinox falls on September 24th lol. That would suck…

          • I thought the days started getting shorter when summer begins, not ends.

          • Yep, it starts moving south again, but takes a bit for the length of the day to get perceptibly shorter.

            The sun does move more quickly on the horizon around the equinoxes, so when the fall equinox comes the days are getting shorter faster and sunrise and sunset are visibly farther south on the horizon every day.

            At the solstices, it’s moving slowest, so it kinda stays put for several days on either side of the summer and winter solstices.

        • Hi seeker,
          My answer is NO. If the chest is hidden at, for example, a certain part of the Yellowstone National Park, you can’t retrieve the chest (even if you wanted) because that part of the park is off limit since the roads are closed to the public due to snow.
          — MK

          • Good lord… no offense, MK… but can anyone think about anything else but weather?
            fenn can control weather, nor can we. But certain things/events happen through a given year that have been utilized by man, since the dawn of man.

            I don’t think the opening or closing of a tourist attraction as any bearing on how the clues play out in fenn’s blueprint. LOL even the driving solves can’t be done on every day if a bridge is closed for repairs… right? But those are unforeseen things that can’t not be consider, imo.

        • Can the clue’s deciphered references be followed as intended on any given day of the year for a completed solve and retrieval?

          Yes, if we know the precise location we can probably retrieve it in any weather or on most any day, but what is this question really asking? This posed question brings to mind two possibilities I’m now considering:
          is this question asking if a particular, specific day works or fits better than other days OR can the clues be followed and the treasure retrieved all in a day. Although Forrest took two trips from his car to hide the treasure in one afternoon, can we follow all the clues and retrieve it in one afternoon?

          • Stone ~ “is this question asking if a particular, specific day works or fits better than other days OR can the clues be followed and the treasure retrieved all in a day.’

            Ding Ding Ding… we have a winner!

            LOL Thanks. But the wording in your correct summery is too direct to ask fenn this question. That is why I word the question as I did.

          • Stone ~’Although Forrest took two trips from his car to hide the treasure in one afternoon, can we follow all the clues and retrieve it in one afternoon?’

            This is a good question. I think we can do it in a days time. The thought that pops in my head relates to “done in one afternoon”
            Does a time of day need to be figured out as well or used in the process?
            Scenario; A searcher [ and more than likely, an excited searcher ] gets to WWsH first thing in the morning [ one of the best times to fishing, by the way ] and executes the clues… by the time that searcher reaches the blaze, is this the time of day needed?… and basically before noontime hits? Might this involve being wise and found the blaze when it needs to be “found” or the more direct thought her is; use the blaze at the proper moment of the day… before noon-ish?

            My attempt here is about; why are we told to plan and observe. fenn said this is one of the few thing he ‘planned’ in is life, and tell us to as well…right? The finally says he followed is own created clues… well, it begs the question of why would he have to do *precisely* follow clues, as he tells us to figure out with the poem.
            It seems to me, planning is more about the clues, than asking for time off from work.

          • Hi again Seeker;

            I like this explanation much better – Or should I say, I understand it much better. So, two trips on one day – Might as well pick the longest day of the year to search, since it gives the searcher more search time. GOOD!!

            This makes sense – I can understand that.

            Noonish – to see the shadow that points in the general direction of where Indulgence is secreted – Logical. Precision??? YUP, Noon on June 21, 2019 would be the MOST PRECISE time – assuming a “something” casts a shadow that points to where Indulgence is secreted. Precision is always good.

            Thanks again for explaining 🙂 JDA

      • Seeker, ff said it could be retrieved in any weather, lol… Seriously, regarding the sun and its shadow it is not too far fetched thinking about it because he did say we need to prepare and observe like you said and the poem has the blaze and looking quickly down, which could be interpreted as follow its shadow.

        Plus, other treasure hunts had this feature in them like the golden hare I believe where the clues gave them an hour of the day and a statue in a park somewhere, that will point to a spot where it was buried. It was on the National Treasure movie as well, again there was a clue to a pointer and another one for the time of the day. We don’t have that in the poem, well maybe if we put the imagination to work overtime.

        So, if it is possible to find it in any weather, overcast, cloudy, rainy, etc. then the sun and its shadow can’t be part of it. Maybe the identification of some clue references will be affected by other things out in the field. I mean if it is a really foggy morning at the starting spot then it should be obvious to wait until it clears before moving forward. What I thought could be an issue will be foliage/ overgrowth. But ff has never mentioned this will be an obstacle.

        • Unfortunately Oz, you left out the most important piece of information in the ATF about retrieving the chest in any weather.
          ~IF you “know where” it is…
          The only way to “know” is to finalize the clues, if you can’t do that, you can’t “know” were it is.

  53. Afternoon folks,

    TT,
    pertaining to:
    ” I think luck has played a part in the real WWWH location simply because some had figured it out early, may be in 2011, as luck would have it, they did not recognize it in full color, the way that Halt was meant in Forrest’s Memoirs, a structure is what an Architect designs, so if he felt like an architect, how is this POEM not associated with a structure? ”

    I gave is some thought, and this is what comes to mind.
    An architect designs buildings on paper. in a way, you are correct in thinking the poem is a structure. Some food for thought; The poem imho is more akin to a literary construct.
    It is built with words, not boards. Unless you figure in how paper is made.
    Each word is meant to support the words to follow. All words interacting to form an image
    in the reader’s mind. Imho one needs to understand the underlying meanings of the words.
    And visualize the outcome.

    HDD

    • HDD/Chad…Are you the same Chad that posted the Q for Fenn in the now closed Perfect Question thread? The one about crossing borders or something to that effect…

      • Hi Ken,
        I may have?? if you can link it I will review it to deny or confirm.
        Sorry, I do not recall atm. To many honey-do projects. rofl.

    • Afternoon, er evening, Senor, High Desert Drifter, I like the way you are getting this IMAGE, it is actually back in the box kinda thinking we are doing, not every searcher will believe, but a clever expression is better than an obvious one, and as some are starting to see, WWWH may be a clever use of an old fishing term that represents what the keyword has always been, and if seen correctly might be that magic co ordinate we are all searching for, just tell me if it rhymes with homophone, techphone homealone?

      Halt and Walk at the red, green and black Tees. Am I teasin you, yes, I am.

      Therefore I am. Comments? Did I open up a can of fishing worms?

      TT

      • Greetings TT,

        Too early for me to say much at this point. What I will say is that at this time I am unsure if ” co ordinates ” are part of the solve. I.E
        Actual numbers giving an x on the map.
        I am in agreement with your observation ” a clever statement ”
        My brain is not really kicking over atm, inspite of having my morning coffee. So I await the ah-ha moment regarding homophone etc.
        Red, Green and black, ummmm. Al peas in a pod. Need I say more?

        HDD

        • IMO a number to the 4th degree is a co ordinates only disclosed at this point for the longitude tangent, not the latitude tangent, see my 3 comments on scrapbook 106, today, if I am right about where wwh, it is accurate to a general solve, but differs the conclusion of an exact to the 4th decimal, and so far I have not seen it..yet. See the difference between a longitude and latitude in space. and on planet earth.

          Gotta get smarter every day to see it in a new way.

          TT

  54. I think I can give a fresh thinking to all searchers about the WWWsH and the path from there to the TC. This is only IMO, of course.

    1. Think carefully why Fenn said what he said and how.

    a) He said “warm waters” not “cold waters”.
    b) He said “waters halt” not “water halts”.
    c) He used “halt” instead of “balk” even though it doesn’t rhyme with “walk”.
    d) He said “a little girl in India can only solve the first 2 clues”.
    e) There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts”.

    You have to figure out what is “where warm waters halt” and pinpoint the particular location of one of them in light of a little girl in India.

    2. If you are able to nail down the location of WWWsH, you have to physically follow the path laid out by Fenn all the way to the TC (in consecutive order). Because there are no other way, as Fenn said it, to get to the TC by not following the clues, i.e., you cannot bypass any part of the correct path.

    Also Fenn said that there are no short cuts. You cannot arrive at, for example, the put-in point below hoB directly from anywhere. That means that you have to follow the path from the WWWsH to the put-in point either by car or on foot, whether it’s the first time or hundredth times. If you can reach your put-in point from 2 different directions or paths, your put-in point may not be a correct one.

    3. Even if you were able to find the blaze first before you’ve nailed down the WWWsH, you have to start your journey from the WWWsH.

    That’s why Fenn said that if you nailed down the WWWsH you’re half way toward the treasure chest (paraphrased). The location of the WWWsH is that much important to the chase.

    — MK

    • 1st off, you’re wrong, like every other searcher on one of your #1 points. I’ll let you figure out which one.
      2nd Fenn never said you need to follow 1st clue all the way to TC. He said that’s how he did it but never said you had to. In fact he once said if you knew the exact location of the TC, you could go directly to it and retrieve it. By the sound of it, you’d have us enter a tunnel or cave…

      • Sure Peasy,
        You could go directly to the TC and retrieve it, but in order to get there you have to pass by WWWsH, CD, NFBTFTW, hoB, and Blaze. That’s the ONLY way. If you can go directly to your hiding spot without passing any other locations in the clues, I think, you’ve got the wrong solve. And I know where my hidey spot is, IMHO.
        — MK

        • MK, if you have been following the chase from the beginning, I think it is clear that you can’t find out where the blaze is if you haven’t followed the clues. That part I agree on, but I don’t think that ff has ever said or implied that there is no other path to the hiding place. I can give you direction from my house to another place. If you follow them you will arrive where you want to go, but there are other ways to get there from other places.
          The clues lead from the starting place to the final place. If you don’t know where to start how can you know where to go. Once you have figured out the nine clues you know where the end is. Get there any way you want. IMO the “put in” refers to a water craft, once in, you will travel down the canyon, etc. you will find the treasure at the end of your journey. FF clearly says that he made two trips from his car to the hiding place in one afternoon. I don’t think that he took the same course that the poem leads you on in a car. Just an old redneck’s view of the Chase.
          Any way get there any way you can and tell us when you find it.
          Good luck to all and all stay safe.

          • Not Obsessed;

            I am sure that you have seen this – but choose to ignore it, and that is your choice, but here it is again:

            Question posted 6/20/2014:
            I have a question for Mr. Fenn:
            When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?
            Thank you Curtis
            The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege”.f

            Good Luck with you decision to ignore what Forrest has said – JDA

          • This is in reply to JDA’s comment regarding the Curtis question. If you read what you wrote, which I am assuming to be accurate, my assessment is that ff doesn’t answer Curtis’s question. IMO, he sidesteps and, in so many words, is merely saying what we already know — that the searcher has to follow the clues in order to find the hidey hole.

    • Well MK,
      Your thinking and comment are not that fresh. It may be fresh to you but I have seen all these thoughts before.
      Good luck though!

      • Hi JF,
        I know that my thoughts are not fresh, but the very reason why the chest is out there is because most searchers think in “old” way, they need a FRESH thinking to get to the bottom of the real chase, that’s what I’m talking about, IMO.
        — MK

    • I’m sorry MK…. somehow I missed the ‘fresh thinking”…. like having figure out “where warm waters halt” and pinpoint the particular location. Or to follow the path once I nail it down.

      Can you put a little meat on that a-to-e list……. I am awfully tired of rubber chicken.

        • Then you are not really trying to inject fresh thinking. If you have fresh thinking on WWWH, then out with it or you don’t. This “post the sameold sameold stuff and say youI have an answer you can’t talk about” gets tiresome (as others are saying). I think the words “I know all but I can’t say more”, and the like, should be banned from this forum. Tiresome!!

          “oooh — I have a great idea — sorry, but I can’t tell you”

          mBG

          • Well, at least I gave you 5 points to ponder about. I think your point is valid enough. I will think about the way to explain them more without exposing my solve further. It will not be easy for me, but hang on just a bit more seconds……
            — MK

        • Think of how rediculous that sounds: must go from one spot to the other, absolutely… Did you look at any map yet? If you go up a canyon to start at WWWH then go back down it to reach HoB, couldn’t you of started at HoB and saved you the trip up? Without giving up your solve, if you’re saying you MUST go from one to the other, there is a special situation or something, otherwise it doesn’t make sense. And I agree with others, speak or keep silent, cause this “i know but can’t reveal too much is getting tiring”.

          • Peasy,
            Consider this: More than one way to the starting point.
            From there it is only one way to the chest.

            HDD

          • Hi Peasy,
            Nobody (Fenn included) or none of the lines in the poem said that you have to go up the canyon to start at WWWH and go back down it to reach hoB. I assume that it is your opinion. If it is then, please say it so. If it’s not, please state the source. Thanks.
            — MK

    • There is an old programmer/mathematician equation that “Garbage In = Garbage Out”, or GIGO. In your first point, item “d” is a glaringly inaccurate attempt at the quote so I give you GIGO.

      • JimB,
        With all due respect.
        My statement is based in fact. A look at the timeline and Forrest’s
        statements will verify this. Then again I guess it all depends on one’s perspective, Ummmm.

        • Your statement isn’t even close to factual. Forrest said the LGFI cannot “get closer” than the first two clues. That doesn’t mean the same as “can only solve” the first two clues (which is how you interpreted his statement).

      • Thank you Bowmarc,
        I think I previously posted the reason why a little girl in India can only get the first 2 clues. If you don’t like that reason, I understand. But if you don’t pay attention to the reason or understand the reason behind it, you may find it very hard to locate the WWWH or the chest. Good luck to you anyway in your search.
        — MK

        • And likewise to you if you don’t see a difference between “can’t get closer” as the actual quote goes, and your substitution of “can only solve”.

          • I just find the choice of words “cannot get closer” odd. What do those words mean? If the little girl is in India, she is no closer to the treasure chest having solved the first couple of clues than if she had solved none of the clues.

          • In the same quote he also hints to a physical presence needed when he says “There are many disabled people who are deeply into maps and geography, and they are having a lot of fun”

          • SuzyQ,
            If you look at the beginningnof the quote, he actually mentions regret over not having another treasure to bury in the Appalachians, which are east from the Rockies. That would put the search closer to the little girl. Now I haven’t heard anyone mention that WWWH and the canyon are separate areas. We all assume that WWWH is already “in” the canyon. So all this being said, I believe the WWWH and the canyon are east of the rest of the clues, making the first two clues “closer” to the girl in India. If your search heads west after clue 2, then you’re doing it right. If it heads east, start over. IMO

          • Of course there is a physical presence needed, you have to physically be there to get the chest. Never mentioned you need to physically be BOTG to find your way to the chest, IMO. Misinterpret can’t get closer than 2nd clue.

  55. I think I could give all the searchers something to ponder: If any one of us had just one clue nailed down for certain we could probably retrieve Indulgence, that trick will not be know for sure because apparently, the ones who got lucky and figured out WWWH did not understand the Hints very well and walked ….walked right on past the other how many? 7 how many colors are in a rainbow? 7, mathematically, the numbers 9 and 7 are so unique, that in this chase no one has a clue, but it might help to understand how a kid might see this unique hint, it borders on choosing the right pieces in the correct order, perhaps a little UNIQUE humor https://www.wikihow.com/Catch-a-Leprechaun ,,,,, you neak up on him and take his pot o gold.

    TT

  56. Make the trap shiny. Since leprechauns are drawn to shiny things, you could wrap the top of the leprechaun trap with tin foil.
    You could also paint it gold. Sprinkle it with glitter and other shiny decorations that will appeal to a leprechaun.
    Some people paint their leprechaun traps green in honor of the leprechauns’ native Ireland. Decorate the trap with Irish symbols the leprechaun will like. Four-leaf clovers and rainbows may attract the leprechaun.

    Forrest has a bunch of them trapped in his TC and when we find it, that will be his secret surprise! That is how he will know when it is discovered. Little People will tell him.

    I love treasure hunting humor, well I did get you to look inside the box, now where does he hide his gold, a Tuatha Dé Danann at the end of a rainbow, but what does he work on? Shoes. does that remind you of anything like double horseshoes?

    TT
    TT

  57. Above, poster MajinKing posted this comment:
    ” … you have to physically follow the path laid out by Fenn all the way to the TC …”
    ————————————————————————–

    The phrase “physically follow” is incorrect, in my opinion. Searcher does not necessarily have to drive or walk from the first clue to the chest.

    And I have responded to MK’s comment in the current Odds-n-Ends thread, rather than here, because my response is more general, in that it applies to Fenn’s verbal comments [i]in toto[/i] rather than only to WWWH, which is the subject of this thread.

    Ken (in Texas)

  58. Ohhh this tangent has my head hurting. Please pass the aspirin.

    If a 79-80-year-old man hides a treasure wouldn’t stand to reason that the treasure
    was hidden in decent weather? Why risk a search in inclement weather?
    How long has it been since it was hidden? It will still be there through winter, awaiting
    the searcher with enough imagination to sort out the correct solution.
    So imho this conversation is moot.

    As a side note: Although some posters are new to the chase I need to be aware that I was there once. And refrain from being aloof of their statements, never can tell when a nugget of inspiration may fall upon these pages.

    HDD

    • Same…my head is hurting. I totally agree with Drifter it was hid in summer weather. Fall has animals getting ready for hibernation so not best time to get out. Winter is winter and fall has floods and such.
      Stop thinking like there is some ancient mechanism from an Indiana Jones or Lord of the Rings movie that a beam of light will come down on a certain day of the year and shine through the amulet you are holding up to show the chest. Comon now, he thought this would be found back in 2014.

        • “All you need yo find my treasure is the poem, a map, a calendar and a portable sundial. GTFO people comon. Let’s piss on this right now: what if it’s cloudy on your one day a year??? Stop this rediculous way of thinking. You can retrieve it any time of day and any day in the year. Seriously making this soo hard for yourselves and Fenn NEVER SAID or even hinted to any of this.

          • Hi Peasy,
            Why does Fenn have to say everything we needed to know? He can say anything he wants to say. It may be helping or hurting the searchers. It’s each searcher’s job to decide which hints or words he says should be correctly interpreted or understood to find the chest. Are you going to follow or believe 100% of all what Fenn says and has been saying until now? I find it very naive to act like that. Sorry to say this, but IMO it’s not sensible action at all.
            — MK

  59. Jake, you made a comment about topographical features changing over time or due to natural events. Wouldn’t this be the case for any topographical feature?

  60. As I said earlier, one never knows when a nugget will land on these pages.
    Thank everyone for the new tangent.

  61. Hi MK,
    I have no idea what you are talking about. Yes most searchers believe what Fenn said. And there is no way a “certain time of day on a one day a year” is even feasible. If so, then this will never be found.

    • I wholly agree that solar solution proposals are non-starters (same for lunar, stellar, and planetary astronomy). Only a single year of naked-eye astronomical observation practice really needed to know that. Maybe less.

      For one thing the poem would have to contain so much more data to map time as well as location, and the window (both of time and of place) for a successful search would be unworkably small.

      If the chest were found and other seekers discovered that they’d been at the exact right place a week too soon or too late, or on the right date but three hours too late or too early . . . . I don’t think “what took me so long?” would be a common response.

      ‘ . . . several parties figured the first two clues, but an untimely thunderstorm obscured the sun and, unknown to them, rendered the chest unfindable for the rest of that summer . . . . ‘

      JAKe

      • JAK,

        Dear Mr. Fenn,

        Q~ If the treasure goes undiscovered for another 1000 years, do you feel the person that discovers it in 3018 would have followed the poem precisely to do so, or might they have happened upon it? ~Cricket
        A~ That question is too hypothetical for me to answer accurately, especially since the next few world wars might destroy the treasure site. f
        This says to me, while he can try to think of everything, he can’t have control over everything… including a cloudy day.

        “I’m looking at 100 years down the road, 1,000 years down the road, maybe 10,000 years down the road. It took me 15 years to write the poem, I’ve changed it so many times, I’ve said before, I didn’t write that poem, it was written by an architect. Each word is deliberate.”
        This speaks for itself.

        “No one is going to find that treasure chest on a Sunday afternoon picnic or over spring break.” Backpackers interview.
        Well, why not??

        “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic. I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. People don’t understand that.”
        Hmmm, what don’t understand about “down the road”
        Why again is spring break and a Sunday picnic mentioned.

        When did you hide the chest?
        Summer.

        “I followed the clues…. before the poem was complete (completed?)”
        How did fenn himself {the clues creator} Complete the poem??

        “Craig, there is no substitute for thinking and *planning and observing* and looking at maps, **unless it’s the desire to keep it simple**. f”
        What did fenn observe when following his clues he made from memory? What did fenn have to plan for?

    • Hi Peasy,
      Even though nobody finds the chest that’s ok with me. I haven’t spent any money yet, but my spare time to entertain myself and other posters on this site. Thank you.
      — MK

    • MK,

      Why?

      ~Difficult but not impossible.
      ~if it was easy anyone could do it.
      ~thinking down the road, a 100, 1000, maybe 10,000 years.

      LOL Heck, even a 100 years is more than most of have in the attempt… right?

      fenn has only said; We all have the same information, and opportunity… And we need to be precise… “contains nine clue *that IF followed precisely…” A poem he worked on for 15 years [has we are told]
      Yet again, fenn seemingly had to do the same to complete (completed?) the poem. HIS own clues…

      You said ~ ‘And there is no way a “certain time of day on a one day a year” is even feasible. If so, then this will never be found.’

      I ask, why?
      Could it be we just don’t see the poem the way fenn does?

      “I’m not flippant about this. It’s not something somebody is going to be able to do on spring break or a Sunday afternoon picnic….”
      “No one is going to find that treasure chest on a Sunday afternoon picnic or over spring break.”
      “I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road. *People don’t understand that.*”

      Have you truly asked yourself why-?- fenn might says we can’t?

      • Seeker – Awesome posts!

        Read the preface of TFTW again. Forrest did that trip in late Summer, IMO. Is that what he meant by, “followed the clues…”?

        Baker’S Hole Campground didn’t open until early May this year. No Spring Break Sunday afternoon picnic. Spring Break is in late March.

        Forrest wrote:

        “I’m looking a hundred years down the road, maybe a thousand years down the road.”

        Maybe ‘Eye•M’ from my/his hidey spot with the GOLD, in Montana, the Treasure State? And “not flippant” could mean to ‘not flip’ that M upside-down to W, for Wyoming, where the treasure is not.

        And Forrest does not say whether he is looking at the future or at the past, when he wrote, “looking…down the road”. What if that is a backwardS bike reference to the view Forrest has from Baker’S Hole, where one can see the mountains of Madison Canyon, while standing at that suspicious Interpretive sign?

        In my mind’s eye, I could see Sheepeater, Shoshone and Blackfeet Indians using my hidey spot area for a protected shelter, with easy access to fishing and getting water and hunting Ungulates and Bison. And for making the formula with the brains to expertly tan those hides right there.

        There is a steep bluff behind, where they could climb up, and continue into what is now YNP, to head over to Obsidian Cliffs to make arrowheads. They could even chase Bison over that nearby bluff, I bet, to disable them during their hunt. And they had ‘brave and in the wood’ canoes to cross the Madison River.

        Does “looking…down the road” mean?:

        One hundred years ago (from 2010):

        Stagecoaches running through YNP, stationed at Riverside; today’s Barns Holes.

        One thousand years ago:

        Indians and scores of animals inhabiting what is now YNP. Like Mummy Joe.

        Ten thousand years ago:

        When were those Clovis points from the Fenn Cache hidden? When did Missoula Lake form in that Great Flood? When did the Woolly Mammoths go extint?

        What do you think, Seeker?

        All IMO.

        • Seeker –

          *and looking at maps, **unless it’s the desire to keep it simple**. f”

          ‘IT•S’
          ‘mapS’
          ‘d•e•S•ire’
          ‘keep IT’

          KISS KISS, Forrest.

          All IMO.

          • Lisa-
            No. I met them in the 70’s. They are long gone but their research and suggested practices live on in Yellowstone.

          • Seeker – But that “Craig” is more likely a reference to Craig Matthews, who literally wrote the book on the Madison River, quoted in this YNP excerpt:

            https://www.yellowstoneflyfishing.com/madison.htm

            A ‘good map’. IMO.

            When are you and Forrest going to get into that boat to float down the Madison with the “Gulpers” from Baker’S Hole, Dal?

            Sent Forrest a solve with him doing that, back in March/April of 2013, after reading that very excerpt. Awesome that I found “IT” again.

          • Seeker – You quoted Steve’s question and Forrest’s response:

            Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail? ~ Steve
            No, *if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence.* Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?
            Your question reminds me of another: You leave home and walk a straight line for a mile, turn 90 degrees left and walk a curved line for a mile and shoot a bear. Then you turn 90 degrees left again and walk a straight line back to your home. What color is the bear?f

            “I mean, there’s people driving down the street looking for a blaze, because that’s one of the clues, but you can’t start in the middle of the poem and find the treasure, I don’t think, I mean, it would be a miracle if someone did.”

            If that is Boundary Street, in front of the old Fennhaven cabins as “home”, and that “IT”-looking way of “making a cake” means ‘baking’ as in Baker’S Hole (missing an ingredient?), then starting in the middle of the Poem works for me.

            We walked to that Boundary Trail start on the Boundary Street end, with all those great maps at the trailhead, but then got back in the car to drive to get our ideal campsite at Baker’S Hole. Walking a little less than three miles with bear spray was certainly doable, but we discovered later that walking that lower section of the backwards bike ‘S-mile’ would have been dicey. Unlike the ‘miracle’ of Moses parting the Red Sea to escape Pharaoh. Lots of ‘rushes’ there, also.

            All IMO.

            Big S-mile.

        • Seeker – And in the preface of TTOTC, Forrest wrote, “many roads…paved with smiles and accolades.”

          And:

          “All of the stories that mingle among these pages are as true
          to history as one man can average out that truth, considering
          the fact that one of my natural instincts is to embellish
          just a little. Nevertheless, the story about my treasure chest is true,
          and if it doesn’t stir your spirit then I hope at least it brings a smile
          in one of your dreams.”

          I Spy that ‘smile’ and ‘that ‘smileS’, Forrest. You seem to like that word. And talking about following a curve in the road, after going straight, and turning left, heading 90°, to go shoot a bear. The color of that bear is Brown, Forrest. And I think you meant in YNP, at Baker’S Hole.

          All IMO.

          And thanks again for making the excerpt from TTOTC available on your website. I still do not own any of your books.

  62. Get back in the box…thoughts flow freely. While studying old rail lines I came across a stop identified only as ‘water box’. Is that a fresh observation or is that old news? Might help fit a piece to someone’s solve. Still working on my own.

    • “Water box” is probably a reference to a tank at a water stop where steam engines would take on water. That has been offered before as a possible WWWH because steam = “warm”, water in engine and water in tank = “waters”, and stop = “halt”.

      I was working a railway-based solve for a while. It occurred to me that the old mailbag stands are very much like banana trees. If you work for the railway post then your job is to grab every bag as the train passes the stands and not leave any behind. I also had an idea about the signal semaphores as banana trees because of the way the semaphores sometimes hang.

      I’ve moved on to other ideas, so I leave this here for whomever it might help. 🙂

  63. JDA you are misconstruing what Fenn said. He said you “have to take point 1 to 9, in order” for you to find the treasure AND NOT go find the blaze before you have found a WWWH or a HoB, like many were doing.
    And yes Fenn followed his clues from 1 to 9 the day he hid it (IMO he followed the road that lead close to it) but he never said that was the only way to get there. No wonder this thing isn’t found yet.

    • Peasy;

      You just said: “He said you “have to take point 1 to 9, in order”” Please provide a source. You said “He said you” then you put a statement in quotes. This means that Forrest said exactly what you put in quotation marks. I have never seen this quote. I would be happy if you can provide a source – Thanks

      You then say: “but he never said that was the only way to get there.” – I re-post this:
      Question posted 6/20/2014:
      I have a question for Mr. Fenn:
      When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?
      Thank you Curtis
      The clues should be followed in order Curtis. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO MY KNOWLEDGE “f Seems like he just said what you say he didn’t. JDA

      • Hi JDA,
        Thank you again for making it clear that there is no other way to take from the beginning to the end without any short cuts either. There is only one way, and also the last stretch of the journey should be traced back to the put-in point (after you retrieve the chest) following the same creek. (I know you don’t agree with this last sentence.) But according to Fenn that was my only interpretation.
        — MK

        • MK – Just saw your post. You are welcome, and yes, I do not agree with you last sentence, but that is OK – 🙂 JDA

  64. “The problem searchers make is that they don’t dwell long enough on the first clue. If you can’t find the first clue you don’t have anything. People driving down the street looking for a blaze, because THAT’S ONE OF THE CLUES, but you can’t start in the middle of the poem and find the treasure.”

    • @Peasy — Above, you accuse JDA of “misconstruing” what f has said. Then you claim f said something (“have to take point 1 to 9…”). And then you claim that f “never said that was the only way to get there”.

      JDA asked you for the source for your “take point 1 to 9” quote by f, then provided an ACTUAL quote by f to dispute your “never said” comment.

      Instead of replying to his request, and either acknowledging or rebutting his quote refuting your assertion that f “never said”, you simply move on to another post.

      Poor form, Peasy. Horribly poor form.

  65. this is from Moby Dickens around 47 minutes

    Forrest, did you have 9 clues before you wrote the poem, or did 9 clues appear after you wrote the poem?

    they’re contiguous. i knew where i wanted to hide the treasure chest. so it was easy for me to put one foot down and then step on it to get to the next foot. thats what i did.

    • Peasy;

      What you posted above bears NO resemblance to what you put in quotation marks yesterday: “have to take point 1 to 9, in order”. You can say ANYTHING that you like, so long as you “OWN” it by saying something like – It is my opinion, and NOT putting your interpretation of something in quotation marks – making others believe that what is in quotation marks words that Forrest said – especially if you precede those remarks by saying “JDA you are misconstruing what Fenn said. He said …”

      I am NOT misconstruing what Forrest said. It is my opinion that you are the one who is misconstruing and misrepresenting – JMO – JDA

      • Peasy; IF I am misconstruing what Forrest said, please post what I said, and then tell me, or show me by posting actual quotes from Forrest how I am misconstruing his EXACT words. IF I have misconstrued anything that Forrest has said, show me where I erred, and I will gladly apologize to you, to Forrest, and the blog-es-sphere as a whole – JDA

  66. “The clues should be followed in order Curtis. THERE IS NO OTHER WAY TO MY KNOWLEDGE “f
    You take this as 100% meaning you have to take clue 1 to 9 and there is no other way to get to chest.
    I take this as meaning, like Fenn has stated on many different occasions, that people can’t go looking for the blaze without having their WWWH locked down.
    Different views.
    IMO

    • Are you then saying, according to your interpretation that once you get your WWWsH location, you can then jump to looking for the blaze? Do I understand what you are saying? If so, what about Forrest saying:
      “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely, will lead to the end of my rainbow and the treasure.” f and: “Only the nine clues, in consecutive order, in the Poem, when understood and followed, leads a person precisely to the chest. The chest is a 10” x 10” x 5” antique bronze Romanesque lock box, and weighs about 42 lbs. The treasure consists of gold, valuable gems, ancient artifacts, and at least one surprise”.

      Forrest seems to be saying that the clues are consecutive, and need to be followed in that order. Am I wrong? Just askin’ JDA

      • Not wrong, just if you go looking for any of the other clues, like HoB, meek, paddle, blaze, etc. before you find your WWWH then you are wasting your time. Then once you have a decent WWWH go to next clue.

          • He’s repeated many times and with different words my way of thinking. Besides that one vague quote we are debating, I have never heard him say there is only one physical path you can take to the treasure.

          • Peasy;

            I can’t count the number of times that Forrest has said that the clues are consecutive, and that one must follow the clues and that we need to marry the clues to a map. All seems conclusive to me, but that is just me.

            Good luck to Ya’ JDA

      • Re: the first reply in the link… Forrest’s mentioned being re-united with his silver bracelet several times… do you suppose that is a subtle hint? … Could be related to something or someone or someplace in the story about how he acquired the bracelet in the first place? Makes ya think.

        • OS2…I’ve traveled that road a few times…row bracelet, 22 turquoise disc beads, Fred(again) Harvey etc.
          Off the top of my head the #22(which just came up again recently) is the number of yards in a chain, f/22 is the smallest aperture(tight focus) on a single lens camera, Catch-22 was hugely popular during the age of the Viet Nam war. The list is long and the rabbit holes were absolutely a blast…and I still pay attention when that number rears up.

          • The autobiography in the chest has 32,200 words in it. Maybe another 22 in there somewhere.

          • Ken, I’ve also wondered about the 22, the most interesting (maybe rabbit hole) to me is Not Far, But Too Far To Walk, it sounds like he is saying somewhere is too far to walk obviously but what if that is a trick, maybe he is saying not FAR, so leave out the word FAR and you have But Too To Walk, but 22 walk, it is not messing with the poem if the poem says not far lol. Anyway just a thought from somebody that thinks too much. There is a Hwy 22 in Wyoming through the Tetons to Jackson…

        • Ya’ll jumped on the number 22. My thought were Navajo, Chaco Canyon, Harvey’s restaurants & train dining, honoring the bet = paying the debt (won the pool game), turquoise, archeology…. funny, the number never entered my mind.

  67. First, some review:
    ——————————————–
    THE FIRST CLUE IS: BEGIN IT WHERE WARM WATERS HALT

    “The first clue in the poem is ‘Begin it where warm waters halt’. That’s the first clue. If you can’t figure that clue out, you don’t have anything.”

    “The most common mistake that I see searchers make is that they underestimate the importance of the first clue. If you don’t have that one nailed down you might as well stay home and play Canasta.”

    “Those who solve the first clue are more than half way to the treasure, metaphorically speaking.”

    WHAT IS WWWH?

    Q: If someone said to meet me WWWH, could they find the place?
    A: You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no shortcuts.

    “Not related to any dam”

    HOW MANY HAVE FOUND THE 1ST CLUE?

    “There are several people that have deciphered the first two clues. I don’t think they knew it, because they walked right on past the treasure chest.”

    “I cannot tell you how many searchers have identified the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several.”

    “Many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it.”

    “Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know a few have identified the first two clues. Although others were at the starting point I think their arrival was an aberration and they were oblivious to its connection with the poem.”

    “On Dec. 30, 2014, FF said: “I know of a few searchers who have been reasonably close to the treasure, but there is no indication that they knew it. No one has given me the correct solve past the first two clues.f”

    On May 20, 2015, FF said: “There have been a few people within 500 feet. I think there have been people within a couple hundred feet. They figure the first two clues, but they don’t get the third and fourth and they go right past the treasure chest.”

    On Nov. 2, 2015, FF said: “Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.”

    Q. Do you expect that people will somehow *know* for sure once they have found the first clue?
    A. No, many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it. Until someone finds the treasure they will not know for sure that they have discovered the first clue.

    HOW TO FIND WWWH:

    Q: Imagining that we haven’t seen the rest of the poem, and all we have to go on is: a. “begin it where warm waters halt” and b. “somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe” Do you think that we can confidently determine the starting place for your treasure trail?
    A: No, if all you have to go on are those two clues you cannot proceed with confidence. Look at it this way. If you were making a cake and you left out a few ingredients, would you achieve your goal?
    ———————————–
    I took a long break from this, and am back, but I am focusing solely on one thing: Trying to figure out WHAT “WWWH” IS. Forget “which one”, I’m not even going there. I just want to know what the hell it IS!

    So we know there are “many” places WWWH in the Rockies.
    We also know that MANY people have solved the first two clues, and amazingly, MANY of them DID NOT KNOW IT!

    So the question I have is, how can you be near WWWH and not know it? To me, this means it’s not ANYTHING obvious like…WARM WATER!

    • Best write up of the WWWH comments ever.

      And I am one searcher who believes WWWH is not about finding warm water, it is something else.

      – Schrodinger’s Treasure
      (formerly T. Hunter, until I discovered someone else out there is using this moniker.)

      • What Aaron said. And many people go searching “knowing” that they have the first couple-few clues right.

        But ff kinda tells what he means by “didn’t know” in this KOAT (Channel 7) interview from 27 April 2015 –

        FENN – “People have been within two hundred feet. And I know that because people send me e-mails and they tell me exactly where they were. The people that were two hundred feet from the treasure didn’t now that they were there.”

        LAURA THOREN – “They weren’t searching . . . .”

        FENN – “They were searching, but *they didn’t know they were within two hundred feet.*”

        https://www.koat.com/article/full-interview-forrest-finn-dishes-on-hidden-treasure/4474384

        JAKe

    • If there are several people who have deciphered the first 2 clues but didn’t know it because they walked right by the chest, I believe that WWH must be a place where warm waters do in fact halt (as we would generally understand them to halt). I also think there is something else (a word that is key, perhaps) that allows one to nail down the first clue. It seems to me that there is a difference between people that have picked a particular WWH as their starting point (maybe because of hints in the book), but have not actually deciphered the clues in the poem. Once someone actually deciphers the clue of WWH and has it nailed down, then a searcher knows how to decipher the rest of the clues and will then walk with confidence to the chest. All just my opinion.

      • JBL;

        You say, “a searcher knows how to decipher the rest of the clues and will then walk with confidence to the chest. All just my opinion..”

        I do not believe that Forrest’s riddle is like solving a ribic’s cube – Once you know the secret, all “faces” fall into place.

        YES, the clues are consecutive BUT – “Not the same”. Just because a searcher figures out WWWsH, why do you think the searcher will then KNOW how to solve the remaining clues?

        Sure, if you figure out the correct WWWsH finding the correct “Canyon Down” is not a great big challenge. But how far do you go down the canyon? How does knowing WWWsH help you figure out what hoB is? How far past the hoB must you go before you “Put In? – How does knowing WWWsH give you this info? I could go on, but the words to the song would just repeat themselves.

        Sorry, to me, your statement is not logical – JMHO – 🙁 JDA

        • Hi JDA,
          For my solve, the generally understood meanings of the words could lead to the treasure, but the words are so vague that the treasure isn’t likely to be found with that method alone. I think that is why people were close yet didn’t know it nor did they go with confidence. My word that is key has led me to identify WWH, my creek, and the blaze. Once I understood how the key was used to identify WWH, I used the same word and method to then identify my creek and the blaze. So, my word that is key unlocked the whole poem. Just my opinion and my procedures – because I still don’t have the chest.

          • Thanks for your reply. So your “Word that is Key” helped with WWWsH, your creek (Which one – NPUYC or Water High {if WH is a creek}) and the blaze. How about hoB, meek place, end place, Heavy Load and Water High, tarry scant and marvel gaze place, the “listen place” and the Wood thing. Your “word that is key” helping with three clues is a bit different than what you posted: “Once someone actually deciphers the clue of WWH and has it nailed down, then a searcher knows how to decipher the rest of the clues and will then walk with confidence to the chest.”

            So, it only takes three clues to unlock the whole poem – Since you said “So, my word that is key unlocked the whole poem. ”

            What a waste. Forrest spent all that time – about 15 years figuring out how to include 9 clues, and all one needs is three – WWWsH, a creek, and a blaze. Darn, I sure have been wasting a lot of time working on nine. JDA

          • Wow, no need for such sarcasm, JDA. Now I remember why I don’t post very often. I was simply giving you an example showing that HOW one deciphers WWH could also help to decipher other clues. SMH

        • JDA doesn’t think JBL’s statement is logical. I think it’s logical/reasonable.

          Sure, if you figure out the correct WWWsH finding the correct “Canyon Down” is not a great big challenge. But how far do you go down the canyon? -Maybe as far as the canyon lasts. Then, you’re ready for the next clue to take over…that’s reasonable.

          How does knowing WWWsH help you figure out what hoB is? -Maybe they’re the same thing…that’s reasonable.

          How far past the hoB must you go before you “Put In? -Not far past because the dirt road forks at this point…that’s reasonable.

          – How does knowing WWWsH give you this info? – I’ve already payed out reasonable answers that sum up what you are asking about.

          I could go on, but the words to the song would just repeat themselves.

          Sorry, to me, your statement is not logical – JMHO – JDA

          • Well FD – I’ll give you an “E” for effort. Don’t see how WWWsH actually helped, but it is early and I haven’t had my coffee yet – 🙂 Sorry, just because the road forks doesn’t tell me how WWWsH helped with that – Just a coincidence. – JDA

          • Well, I answered your specific questions with reasonable possibilities.

            Maybe you shouldn’t ask those specific questions if you can’t understand reasonable outcomes.

          • JDA, you can’t figure out how if the correct wwwh is also hoB, that wwwh would help with hoB, or in between the canyon and hoB (possible road fork)? Really? I think you need some simple coffee…made from simple beans.

            Don’t forget the clues are continuous. Since the idea you guys are talking about starts with figuring out the correct wwwh. That makes what comes after that in the clue path able to be helped by that first correct clue. Of course that helps the next few clues.

      • JBL;

        Just for the fun of it, I tried to come up with a solve that USED a keyword, and minimal places/things related to that keyword. Here goes:

        Let’s say you are reading TTOTC – My War For Me – and see waterfall. You decide that “Waterfall” is your word that is key.

        You look on a map and find “A” waterfall – Let’s call it “Waterfall A”

        Now, let’s use Seekers Small Area Visual Solve. As we stand at “Waterfall A,” we see a Canyon Down. We then see a small lake – Let’s call it Brown Trout Lake (hoB) at the far end, we see water leaving, and a smaller creek meeting our Canyon Down creek as it leaves the lake – Let’s call it Meek Creek.

        We can see that Meek Creek has some rapids – “No place for the meek” – just up stream we see “Waterfall B” – NPUYC + HLnWH. It is BIG and also becomes our Blaze. We “Look Quickly Down” and see a “Catch Pool”

        “But Tarry Scant and Marvel Gaze” – don’t look at our Waterfall B very long, it is not here.

        Next stanza tells us something about go/leave and tired/weak – OK Go/tired = the waterfall plunging down and Leave/weak = the plunge pool. (Two more clues associated with our waterfall.

        “So hear me all…” The roar of our waterfall (another Waterfall clue)
        “Your efforts will be worth the COLD” – tells us we need to enter the COLD plunge pool – BRRR (Another waterfall clue)

        “If you are brave (Ya’ gotta’ be brave to enter these COLD waters)
        “And in the wood” – look under a log in the catch pool – Find Indulgence.

        OK what do we have? Waterfall A, a canyon, a lake, a creek with rapids, waterfall B. Waterfall B answers ALL of the remaining clues. Basically, three (maybe 4) “Places, ALL associated with your Word That is Key – WATERFALL. Phew! Havin’ fun – JDA

        • That is JDA, if that is the way a searcher is suppose to read the poem and go about solving it. What if taking the poem from the start at face value is not the way to solve the poem? What if trying to find some random wwwh that is next to some canyon, on a map, etc….etc…. is not what solving the poem is all about?
          You said: ALL associated with your Word That is Key.
          Again, I see the word being “that”. Your word “that” is key. Sounds to me like the word “that” is key. Isn’t that what you just wrote down? What if that is the way to read into what f is saying? Isn’t that saying exactly what he is saying and not corrupted by a searchers idea of what he is saying?
          Or, is it the word “that” does not compute into anything, the way you are reading into it? The thought of “what is the word “that” have to do with anything”?
          In what f is saying, the word “few” is in tight focus with it. These are f’s words, and not searchers wild guesses. “A few are in tight focus with a word that is key”.
          This is how searchers start guessing , and ending up in rabbit holes. “So hear me all AND LISTEN GOOD”, RIGHT?
          IMO, if searchers want the answers to these types of questions, they need to listen to f. In this case, focus on possibly finding out how the word “few” is in tight focus with the word “that”. And what they have in common, because the word “that” is key. Anything else is just simply a guess.

  68. Hi Corepuncher, I had this happen to me when I was first working on potential solves. I was at a place on the map but didn’t realize it was WWWH. Years later, I found myself at the same place on the map that I had previously dismissed but now with a solid solve and reason. In my own opinion, which is important to say, WWWH has nothing to do with a physical or topographical feature concerning water but it can be confused depending on your approach, meaning you could arrive at this location an not realize it is the definitive starting point or WWWH. Trying to explain this is almost as confusing as Forrest’s explanation but it makes logical sense in retrospect to my own evolution of solves.

    • Just curious Michael, if you realized the place on the map was WWWH, what then IS your “WWWH”? I don’t need to know where (since there are “many”), but what IS it? A warm stream ending in a cold river, a lake, warm spring, edge of cliff, bottom of waterfall, etc ?

  69. Hi JDA, my solve is related to water but it has nothing to do with physical water. I don’t think that is has been proven that the physical aspect of water is necessary, yes or no?

    • Hi Michael;

      Not sure what you mean by ” nothing to do with physical water” I guess that a mirage is not physical water, and I guess that Hydrogen and Oxygen gasses in a bottle that have not combined are the makings of water, but is not physical water, Snow, sleet, ice and fog I guess are not “Physical water”, although they are physical forms of water. Bottom line, you have me confused. Care to explain? Just askin’ – Could you be referring to a picture of a river or stream or lake? I guess that that is not Physical Water, but a representation of it – As I said, I am confused – but what’s new?? JDA

      • Hello JDA,

        In my current solve, WWWH does not refer to any physical or topographical feature that contains water in any form (solid, liquid, or gas). It does have to do with water regarding commonly accepted natural laws about it. I have found the 2nd clue closely tied to the first but also having nothing to do with a physical canyon of any sort. For me, currently, the first few clues are not related physically to what the words mention nor are they metaphor. They are tied directly to a specific location. While searching Google Earth and Maps, a couple other clues that occur later in the poem appeared in near proximity on a detailed map to the first few. I am hoping to put BOTG later this summer to search the area because I can find no other direct location correlations to the remaining clues. My approach for several years has been to disprove my own solves. My current solve is very simple and relies only on the poem and maps. I think I may have correctly solved the 1st clue many years ago by location but only because another solve methodology coincidentally brings one to the same location. I gave up that solve a long time ago but recently found myself back at the same starting point but for very different reasons. For me, yes, it’s about water, but it’s not physically water in any form.

        • Michael;

          All I can gather from what you say is you have found a dry creek bed, A dry creek bed CONTAINS no water but ” It does have to do with water regarding commonly accepted natural laws about it.”

          Good luck to Ya – Seems like a “Dry hole” to me – but what do I know? NADA – Be Safe – JDA

          • Hi JDA,

            Not a dry creek bed, nor any land feature whatsoever. You will only find my WWWH on a map and it won’t change for a quadrillion years. For me, the poem is a set of very specific, step-by-step, instructions. I don’t have all the clues solved, of course, because I believe some require one’s physical presence in the location to decipher. But, I do have some nailed down without question. The reason I know this is because, for me, there is only one possible geographical location for each of the first two clues and a few of the later ones. For me, there are not many possibilities but rather singular solves to each clue. Holding myself to the one unique solve rule has helped me greatly as well as only using the poem and maps.

            M

          • Now I am really confused. It is found on a map, and yet is not a physical feature, and will last a quadrillion years?????? The only thing on a map that is not a physical feature is a name of a place, and a name certainly will not last a quadrillion years. I give up – JDA

          • MM: I’ll assume you’re exaggerating with “quadrillion” for dramatic effect. The earth will be gone in only 5 billion years when the sun goes red giant. That’s 1/200000th of a quadrillion. 😉

          • Michael, I sorta thought TIME was your WATER metaphor … it flows, warm = the good times, & as buddha said, no man can step in the same river twice. Time is usually noted by words & numbers, but is also noted by images … suns & moons, shadows & rays. I wonder, is your WWWH an image, a number, or a word on your map?

          • OS2;

            Will a number or words on a map – “won’t change for a quadrillion years.” Mountains might last that long, but he says that it is not a physical feature. Same for a canyon, river bed etc. ?????? JDA

          • Directions – N – S – E – or W will last that long, but how can a direction be an indicator of WWWsH? If a direction how does that equate with – There are many WWWsH (a direction) and most are north of Santa Fe? I am still confused – JDA

          • Degrees will last that long, but how can a number of degrees be an indicator of WWWsH? If a number of degrees, how does that equate with – There are many WWWsH (a # of degrees) and most are north of Santa Fe? I am still confused – JDA

          • Intriguing discussion. Since Forrest says “there are many places in the Rocky mountains WWWH, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe”, why not divulge what your WWWH is (but not which one)? If there are not “many” of your specific WWWH, then according to the Forrest quote, it must not be correct.

          • Found an X on your map? …. The intersection is called WWH because out one leg are waters, out another leg is a halt, and out a 3rd leg is something warm. Where is the 4th leg.

            Think about it.

          • Well maybe Michael’s map has locator marks on the top and side. Like A,B,C….,1,2,3….
            So maybe B3 ( Brown 3rd clue) is where those lines cross for hoB?

            Oh well just guessing,
            Bur

          • Sector markings (like playing the game Battleship) would be different from map to map. My WWWH is universal across any map and will be forever unchanged. It’s very simple and really the only solution, in my opinion, that could be referenced without change 1,000 or 1,000,000 years from now.

      • Well Michael;

        You have us distracted from the “Real Search” – that is for sure. If it is found on ANY map, it must not be much of a secret, even though none of us can figure out your little riddle. Why the secrecy? Why the little game? Why not just tell us, so we can say how clever you are to have figured out what is in front of all of our faces, and can not see – Just curious – JDA

        • It’s no game, JDA, and inasmuch finding the one WWWH is the “Real Search,” it’s not something I’m trying to keep from anyone. I asked about this previously.

          • Michael – I find this discussion intriguing and am interested to know what you are talking about. I don’t think even compass directions could be considered constant over a long period of time with the magnetic poles constantly on the move. It sounds to me like you have an astronomical idea going on related to WWWH; is that correct? Maybe your idea of waters is the planetary orbit of Neptune or a specific star or constellation with an aquatic name?

            If that is along the lines of what you are thinking, it reminds me of this quote from Forrest:
            “Some searchers overrate the complexity of the search. Knowing about head pressures, foot pounds, acre feet, bible verses, Latin, cubic inches, icons, fonts, charts, graphs, formulas, curved lines, magnetic variation, codes, depth meters, riddles, drones or ciphers, will not assist anyone to the treasure location, although those things have been offered as positive solutions. Excellent research materials are TTOTC, Google Earth, and/or a good map.”

            He doesn’t talk about astronomy specifically, but “curved lines” call fall into the same category as celestial orbits. Also, the last sentence in the quote seems to recommend focusing on terrestrial features in order to solve the poem. That’s just my interpretation though.

          • Blex;

            Michael said that it has nothing to do with a compass rose, so I guess that that rules out the declination diagram that relates to azimuth and magnetic poles.

            It is on every map, so I don’t see the astrological connection. Well last a quadrillion years, but is not a physical land feature. Boggles the mind – JDA

          • Michael said that he asked about this previously – well, I (for one) am not going to research every post that Michael has made. He will tell us or he won’t. I have tired of the game – JDA

          • Stars and constellations change over time, and would certainly be different a ‘quadrillion’ years from now. I doubt that’s what Michael’s talking about. Not that I have any idea what he is on about.

            Only 5,000 years ago Thuban was the North Star, not Polaris.

          • J A Kraven;

            Now that is a fact (among many) that I didn’t know – Thanks – JDA

          • Nothing in the stars, Blex. I’m a pretty simple person and that would be way too complicated for me. Only the poem and terrestrial maps and Google Earth. I’ve held myself to only the sources of information mentioned by Forrest. I think one of the most notable things about Forrest is that he was and always will be a pilot so he is very comfortable with various sorts of navigation and also viewing things from the air. This is primarily why I asked about the distance between locations in the poem and if the starting point could be farther away from the chest than what is commonly put forth? In the same vein, can WWWH be south of Santa Fe while the chest is north? To confound things further, my second clue solve has nothing to do with an actual canyon, which seems way out I realize, but as a set of instructions, this line leads me to a very specific and singular spot on the map. For me, it’s all in how you read it, like Forrest suggested a few times. It’s all just my own opinion of course. By the way, is there a thread for “So, hear me all and listen good?” I found something I would like to discuss about that line?

          • Michael – I don’t think that there is a specific discussion thread for that particular line, but the thread about “the poem” in general would probably be the most appropriate location.

            As for your technique, you have me stumped! It sounds like you are working on something using a large scale. I’ll be interested to hear more when you are ready to share, but understand that you may want to pursue further yourself in the immediate future.

          • So michael, since there are (according to f) many places in the Rockies N of santa fe where WWH , what is it that f is referring to that there are so many of that have no water?

            I always like basins and sinks, or the vale of tears, or teapot dome or the like, but usually some water is required to form the canyon down.

  70. Good afternoon folks,
    After reading several posts and printing an email regarding the chase for future reference.
    Some questions came to mind.
    ” How does one determine the correct WWWH?. ”
    Followed by ” What identifies the correct state to start in? ”
    Yeah, backward thinking, which proves I still need to do more poem research and thought.

    I do have a good idea of what WWWH is, just a matter of getting it right the first time.
    The way I see it, I have one shot at this before my body says that’s it bud, no more walking more than a few blocks.

    Then again that may not be so bad, could be the catalyst which opens my mind up to more imagination.

    • Since there are “many” places in the Rocky Mountains WWWH, why not share with the class what you think WWWH “is” (not your specific place). IMO, if your WWWH is a unique entity, or there are only a handful of them in the Rockies, then it cannot be correct since Forrest said there are “many”. Curious if anyone disagrees with this logic, seems fairly solid to me unless I’m misinterpreting what Forrest said.

      • FF said there are many places WWWH and nearly all are north of Santa Fe. We have had this discussion before, but I sill do not understand why people think that the many places WWWH to be same type of warm water halting as the one in the poem. FF is very careful with his words and he did not choose to say anything to the affect of the version in the poem being the same as the many WWWH.

        • Aaron;

          You say: “he did not choose to say anything to the affect of the version in the poem being the same as the many WWWH.”

          If he is not saying that the many places, most north of Santa Fe are the same as the WWWsH in the poem, what do you think he is saying?

          How would you word it so that they mean the same thing? – JDA

          • “If he is not saying that the many places, most north of Santa Fe are the same as the WWWsH in the poem, what do you think he is saying?”

            I think he is saying that the action of warm water halting happens many places. We all know the different versions that have been brought up, and I think they could all be at play in this statement. He didn’t say – There are many places WWWH that are similar to the one in my poem.

            How would you word it so that they mean the same thing? I wouldn’t say it, and I don’t think he did either. If he were to however, then the above statement would be the most correct way to say it, in order to convey that he was referring to the version of WWWH in the poem. That is what I, probably alone, think.

          • Aaron,

            In a ‘general’ conversation, the idea; there are many WWsH in the RM’s… could be almost anything.
            However,
            fenn is answering a question about the poem itself. Would it be more than reasonable he was talking about the same types or related waters, rather than, a general aspect of anything we blogger can come up with?

            This reminds me when certain quotes are presented; such as words like others, people, some, etc. are mentioned about the first two clues solved; Bloggers want them to be about tourist, or folks not on a search or in search mode, just for the simple wording, and not using “searcher”

            But all those words were about the first two clues of the poem… right?
            For example; “People’ have figured the first two clues and unfortunately walked passed the chest”
            Who else is going to figure out anything in the poem other than someone involved with the poem/search/challenge?

            You asked JDA ~ ‘How would you word it so that they mean the same thing?’

            Personally I would word it as a response to the ‘topic’ of the question being asked. Why would we think fenn wouldn’t do the same. He has said, at least once that I know of, he will answer the question[s] as presented.

            Just sayin………

          • I agree with Zap that if the type of WWWH in the poem was the same as the one south of Santa Fe then it would be more than he wants to give away. Because he did not specifically say the clue or the one in the poem then we can’t assume that’s what he means. You guys have read enough FF quotes to be fooled by this one.

            Seeker, the difference between this and the quote you mentioned is the use of the word clue.

          • Someone unfamiliar with your poem receives a message that says “meet me where warm waters halt, somewhere in the mountains north of Santa Fe”. Would they be able to work out where to go? If they can’t, would they need the whole poem, another stanza, or just a line or word to help them on their way? ~Phil Bayman

            .
            There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure Phil, but it is risky to discount any of them. You over simplify the clues. There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts. f

            While the question starts out as “unfamiliar” it’s stated after, “IF Not ” would they need the whole “poem” etc etc.

            fenn responses if directly related to the poem; “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure” .. says.. “You over simplify the *clues*”
            The talks about the first clue directly.

            To read between the lines on this comment, [ which we all guilty of trying at some point in analyzing the crap out it all.. tip toeing through the tulips ]

            But one would need a jack-hammer to pry this comment apart.

        • Hi JDA: I believe what Aaron is getting at is that there is no requirement for Forrest’s WWWH to be of a type that can also be found *south* of Santa Fe. Forrest is simply making a statement that there are many, many things that people could conceivably label as WWWH — most of which are found north of Santa Fe. This isn’t all that controversial a statement, given that only a tiny fraction of the Rocky Mountains is south of Santa Fe. It would be a ginormous clue if Forrest was claiming that his WWWH was required to be of a type found both north and south of Santa Fe!

          • Hi Zap;

            You said: ” It would be a ginormous clue if Forrest was claiming that his WWWH was required to be of a type found both north and south of Santa Fe!”

            I think that that is exactly what Forrest is saying. – JMO – JDA

          • Well, I think that’s way too restrictive, JDA. But then, I’m of the opinion that WWWH is not a hot spring, warm spring, lake, reservoir, or glacier. 😉

          • Mr. Fenn states that the clue was oversimplified and it is risky to discount any of the words in the poem. He then responds by ignoring the same words and stating there are many places where warm waters halt…I wonder how many places in the Rockies BEGIN where warm waters halt?

          • As Yeti has pointed out and a glaring point that is deficient in most of the comments in regard to Phil’s Q, the question omits the words *begin it*. The focus seems to revolve around wwh and whether or not there may be some south of SF. While the latter may be of some importance, I believe that the significant tell may lie in the fact that Fenn’s answer seems to cleverly point out that those two little words are more significant than Phil gave them credit for. Or not…

          • Ken,

            Begin it…
            LOL the IT war, what does it mean, right?
            I get the feeling It is about how we proceed in not only learning about WWsH but about what the poem is relying.
            Some suggest; Our journey, Our quest, a simple starting point…some use this part of the poem for anagrams, crossword puzzling… and the list goes on and on.
            Let’s jump back to the basic.
            ~ There’s no substitute for analyzing, thinking, Planning and Observing, and looking at maps [ i’ll ad GE, because fenn added it ]
            What is IT-?- in attempting to finalizing the task?

          • To me we have to figure out the “I” riddle in the first stanza. The “I” is not a person but a thing, an “it” so to speak. Then it is a matter of beginning in the location that WWsH on or in this thing referred to as “it”.

          • Aaron,
            I kinda agree this could get us to WWsH…

            But does it tell us how to solve the poem?
            I think IT is attempting to make us think what process we must take.

            I don’t really like the word Illusion, but I think many create an illusion of the process… IT catches the attention of the reader [ as we all know by the many conversations of it.. I mean IT]
            IT might not be about a place, but more about why we need to plan and observe.

            Begin where warm waters halt, flows easy, has direct meaning… add the IT, and there’s a pause for thought provoked idea that seems to imply we need to know something.

            I’ll throw it out there again, The poem is full of words and phrases relate to ‘time’.
            So, how is time involved?

          • Seeker, your post makes me wonder if there is not a double, but triple entendre involved. Googling triple entendre brought up the rapper Jay-Z’s triple entendre. I’m not a fan of the lyrics or message but found it interesting how he was able to do it. FF could have pulled something like that off and probably would have felt like an architect.

        • Seeker, I understand what you are saying. All I’m saying is that FF has been a little elusive in the way he answers questions. Even if the question was related to the poem doesn’t mean his answer was. Put it this way, if the truth were known and it turns out that the WWWH is not the type that is south of Santa Fe would this statement hold up as true in the court of law? I say yes because he did not specifically say the WWWH in the poem.

          • I’m not worried about holding up in court..lol.. we all have seen how some of those cases turn out.

            I’m strictly talking about honesty. IF we start picking and choosing; this comment is not what is says… but this other comment fits my solve so it is what it says… why bother asking any questions at all?
            Grant ya, the answer might be clever in response, and we may not understand it in full because we don’t have the luxury of what fenn knows… Yet still, I think he is being truthful to the questions asked.

      • Good afternoon corepuncher,

        A strange thing happened this morning. I sat here and typed out What I thought would be my farewell to the chase. I hit the post button and for some reason beyond my comprehension, it did not post. I thought it did until I searched for it and found nothing.

        So maybe I am to continue my studies.
        You ask what my WWWH is, in a nutshell, it is a road. A very specific one. After this morning’s snafu, I have this feeling that my creator is encouraging me to continue my search. So please understand I can not reveal more. Naturally this is mho

  71. HDD;

    I know that it is not the answer that you want, but here is what Forrest says:

    “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f
    Sorry, best any of us can do – JDA

    • Getting the first clue(s) right did not help the folks that went right on past the rest. The key word was either not recognized, or it was of no help to the remaining solve. I’m working both angles.

    • That’s a good important quote JDA, thanks for posting it again. I have done this many times, although as I read TTOTC, my mind cycles through the entire poem, over and over again. This may seem like a tedius task, but my GOAL soon is to read TTOTC one time for EVERY LINE IN THE POEM. Repeating ONLY that line in my head as I read. Then write down all the obvious and abstract items that relate in any way to that line of the poem. Then on to the next line…

      That means I will have to read it 24 more times (not to be done on a Sunday picnic ha!). I think I have just challenged myself. Accepted. The hardest part will be to read the parts of the book I don’t feel are that important (and tend to skim over), while repeating the lines of the poem that I also feel are not as important. But, if it must be done, it must be done. I must turn over every stone in order to feel good about this.

      • corepuncher;

        I just did that for WWWsH. Various people had said there were hints in TTOTC that could help with selecting the correct WWWsH. I had had my WWWsH for 40 months, and had two good reasons why I THOUGHT that it was correct, but I had never found that “Confirming” information in TTOTC – So, I read TTOTC over for the nth time, but looking ONLY for something that would direct me to MY WWWsH – or prove my choice wrong.

        I found the confirmation I was looking for. This confirmation gave me both a distance, and a description of my WWWsH – They matched up VERY well.

        I then went to tftw, and again found confirming hints. I then found a “General” confirming hint in OUAW.

        I am now absolutely certain that I have the correct WWWsH – even though I do not (as yet) have Indulgence in my grasp. I feel that I can “Go with confidence” to where Indulgence lies – JDA

        • I got no confidence about nuthin’ re The Chase. But I still play along for fun. Hopefully something will get caught up in my brain on one of these readings…

        • JDA, thank you for your reply. Now I am excited to read TTOTC once again, and, as you did, looking for WWWH. I have been stuck on this clue for a while now, and with lazer focus. I don’t care about anything else at this point.
          FYI, through some of Forrest’s quotes, it leads me to believe that the treasure is definitely NOT in NM, and probably not in CO. Also not in Yellowstone. That’s about all I can confidently weed out.

          If you are interested in info sharing, please email me @gmail , I am willing to make a good faith move and dump some data on you that I have been working on. Perhaps you can then weigh it against what you have, and reciprocate in kind.

    • Hi JDA,

      I did it exactly what Forrest suggested and it gave me an idea what is the hoB in the poem. As I said before my recent BOTG to the area that is located “below the home of Brown” was not successful. Maybe “put in” spot was not correct or I was in correct spot but failed to find TC because was sure that it can be discovered visually i.e. without metal detector. The blaze that I found can definitely withstand many centuries or even several thousand years.
      I don’t have possibility to do more than 1 BOTG per year so will wait for next summer to re-visit this spot with metal detector.
      Still thinking about several strange contradictions. First one is that TC “could be scorched in a forest fire” and at the same time “nobody is going to accidentally stumble on that treasure chest”.
      We know that TC contains some wood parts inside and surface bronze sheets are not very thick. If TC is located near trees forest fire can easy heat it to high temperature. Melting point of bronze varies depending on the ratio of the alloy components and is about 950 °C (1,742 °F). Even before melting the wood inside of TC should start to burn. It will happen if TC is located on the surface i.e. can be visible by naked eye.
      If Forrest “sepulchered” TC (as JDA suggested) forest fire should not touch it directly and thus it will not damage TC. Even if TC is located in the wood but covered by thin layer of stone(s) it will not be damaged by forest fire.
      Also we know that TC is wet so it is also some protection from short-term exposure to fire.
      These contradictions are very strange. Maybe Forrest specially created them to misled TC searchers?

      • Andy S.

        I agree, it is an inigma. When you look at the recent forest fires in California and other places, even if septultured, I can easily imagine that Indulgence would not escape unscathed. The heat generated in a forest fire can exceed 2192 degrees fahrenheit. That is HOT!!! JDA

      • Hi Andy,
        Another possible contradiction is that Forrest says the treasure is wet but then he also says there’s no mildew in the chest. I think this has been discussed before but I’m not sure where.

      • Hi MM: mildew needs three conditions to form: moisture, a food source, and the right temperature. IMO, the chest is perpetually in a wet environment, so that’s one check mark. The inside of the chest is wood-lined, so there’s your food source: check #2. And finally, mildew thrives in temperatures in the 70s and 80s, but can still form in temperatures from just above freezing to nearly human body temperature. So no matter where the chest lies, for at least some portion of the year all three of these conditions are met.

        But there is a fourth condition: mildew prefers slightly acidic pH conditions. So if the moisture source at the chest’s location is alkaline, mildew won’t form. Conundrum solved, and an important clue revealed!

        • Thanks Zap. Unless there’s some other reason mildew won’t grow in the chest the higher alkalinity kind of points to the Yellowstone area.

          • MM wrote: “the higher alkalinity kind of points to the Yellowstone area”.
            —————————

            I’m afraid that’s not the case, MM.

            You can Google the soil pH levels of different areas of the U.S. Their U.S. map shows that Yellowstone is more acidic than other areas of the Rocky Mountains.

            Ken (in Texas)

        • Maybe he was just having fun with words as in he didn’t put his hat “Mildew” in the chest.

          It seemed to me that many of his “Weekly” and “Surprise Words” offered over at Jenny’s were playful, but not overly meaningful to locating the chest.

          Many, but perhaps not all.

        • Zap,
          Aren’t there certain types of organic material (wood) that inherently resist mildew? If the wood was stained or saturated it would also deter mildew growth. I do like the Alkaline theory though.

          • Jake: no doubt there are other loopholes. I just went with the simplest explanation. Fens are alkaline.

        • Zap;

          I am guessing that Indulgence will have a temperature below 70 degrees, so the chance of mildew is much less. JMO – JDA

          • Hi JDA: since caves are ruled out, and I don’t believe Indulgence is shovel-buried, I think the chest undergoes a fair amount of thermal cycling each day, offering plenty of opportunity for mildew growth — if it weren’t for some other factor prohibiting its growth.

          • JDA

            I believe you are Brave and in the Cold with that comment my Friend! 🙂

            I believe that indulgence is in an area, during the summer time, with a cooler temperature and the chest may quite possibly be hidden in a very small rock cairn. Rock cairn is a new theory of mine, just my opinion of course.

            That mildew comment sure is a mystery, I do like the theory about alkaline though, very interesting.

            Enjoy your travels Mr JDA!
            Peace to you.

        • Wet can mean many things (additional rabbits to chase or not). Is all of the chest wet, is it wet inside, or is it just wet on the seat of it’s britches with dry contents? Is it rarely wet or always wet?

          Is it in a protective jacket of some sort preventing most contact with moisture?

          But leapfrogging back to WWWH, if there are many of them in the Rockies then logic tells me the poem will/must allow me to narrow it down to just one. Which is how I choose to interpret what he said.
          The deceptive vagueness and deceptive simplicity of the poem’s word choices requires a closer look. The architect investing lots of time in all those word choices.

          Or maybe I am now stringing together another tangent built on speculation. I better get back in the box.

          • Meadowlark,
            I don’t think he put in a protective case or jacket on the chest since he wanted just the sight of it to get people excited, even before they opened it and got the look on their face they he wished he could have seen.

            I don’t put to much weight on the quotes about the chest being wet though. He said he tried to think of everything. The wood in the chest would have been susceptible to not only moisture, but insects that crawled through the seam. If he taped it or put an obvious sealant on it that would affect the visual appeal he was trying to achieve. One solution would be to coat the joining lips of the chest with something like petroleum jelly to seal out insects and moisture without affecting the look of the chest very much. Petroleum jelly is commonly used as a protective coat on a variety of metals. And since it contains a liquid component putting it on the chest would wet it. All IMO, for all I know the chest could be sitting in a puddle but I’m not going to hang my hat on those quotes, especially the one that says physics told him so (that seems like a way to hint that it’s not wet in the ordinary sense).

  72. Upthread, corepuncher did a good job of summarizing Fenn’s comments about WWWH. Read carefully the following four Fenn comments; I have put in CAPS the important points of each of Fenn’s comments …

    “There are several people that have deciphered the first two clues. I DON’T THINK THEY KNEW IT … ”

    “I cannot tell you how many searchers have IDENTIFIED the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several.”

    “Many people have found the first clue BUT THEY DIDN’T KNOW IT.”

    “Searchers have routinely revealed where they think the treasure was hidden and walked me through the process that took them on that course. That’s how I know A FEW HAVE IDENTIFIED THE FIRST TWO CLUES.

    —————————————————————————

    Consider this possible interpretation of what Fenn is actually saying >>> to Fenn, searchers have MENTIONED two places (place A and place B) that correspond to the first two clues. But … those searchers never realized that those two places (A and B) were the first two clues.

    Perhaps those searchers had some other locations as the first clues, and considered A and B as someplace they might search, but of course never found the chest because neither A nor B is where the chest is at.

    To identify the first two clues correctly is not the same as saying they identified the first two clues as BEING the first two clues.

    What they DIDN’T KNOW was that although they had identified 2 geographic places that were important in the treasure hunt, they never considered those places as representing the first 2 clues.

    This tells me two things. First, it’s not good enough to find geographic places that are part of the treasure hunt and try to work the clues forward or backwards. Searchers must be certain that their WWWH is correct, period. Then, proceed ever so slowly to clue 2, then to clue 3.

    Second, it tells me that the number of searchers who correctly identified A and B as Fenn’s actual first two clues is probably smaller than most searchers seem to assume.

    Most searchers I think take it for granted that those searchers that Fenn talks about were aware that they had identified the first two clues. I don’t think that is correct.

    Ken (in Texas)

    • Hi Ken, It would be easy to agree that the number of folks that have successfully identified the first two clues is probably less than thought. It is confounding that something in the poem got folks close…or in the correct area, and they did not know it. That in itself hurts my brain a bit. Let’s not omit other statements with Fenn saying; New Zealand Radio 2013… “There have been two different parties that have figured out the first two clues but the, they went right past the treasure chest and didn’t find it.”
      This is pretty much the same thing really…only worded a bit differently. I tend to focus on that one as a strong indicator that folks can/have figured out the first two…and in 2013 he is putting a very low number on who has. Thanks for sharing…

      • Ken, Ken and etal.
        Anyone who has mentioned a specific (named) waterway to Forrest and the contiguous spillway (named) could have qualified for the “two/several/many” quotes. Since Forrest can not possibly read, evaluate, track and score ALL of the volumes of emails, posts, blogs and comments, he could probably very accurately say “hundreds” instead of “two/several/many.” The point remains, that the chest remains…and there is a reason, IMHO.

    • Hi Ken (in Texas);

      You say: “To identify the first two clues correctly is not the same as saying they identified the first two clues as BEING the first two clues.”

      How does Forrest break down stanza #2? How many clues does Forrest see in stanza #2? = 1? – 2? – or even 3 or 4? We just do not know. I see it one way, you another and Forrest – who knows. I think that this has helped lead to the confusion as to how someone could have identified clues #1 and #2, and yet Forrest not recognize then as clues or not in the right order. Just a thought – JDA

    • Ken,

      “Many people have found the first clue but they didn’t know it.”

      So this statement kind of makes you wonder why there has been a “few” or “several” stated by Fenn. So this “many” statement is for the first clue only. So is the “many” just “people” in general, not searchers? Can a hint to the answer of the first clue be that it’s in a well traveled area that “many” travel by?

      So WWWH can be passed by without one knowing it is the first clue answer in Forrest’s poem? Is it maybe because the “many” knew nothing about the TTOTC. Because for a searcher it would have been obvious, or would it have?

      What brought those few/ several searchers to that “area” of the correct first two solves? Was it something in the poem alone? Or a hint in the TTOTC book? Or was it a guess or something, to them, that was obvious?

      “My god, why didn’t I think of that?”

      Now you would think those few/several searchers thought they had more then two clues solved, or why even go there, right. Because if they only had the first two solved and were flying by the seat of their pants they would have been looking for anything along the way on their canyon down trek that might fit the poem clues and thus had found possibly the “put in” spot that helps lead to other clue solves. That goes to show you that when you search with blinders on you can miss the obvious.

      There is a lot more info and thoughts now a days then that was presented back when these statements few/ several were first made. Don’t get me wrong there were some “deep thinkers” back then and they brought up many topics that most our conversations repeat about in these days. It’s good to refresh now and then but for veteran searchers it’s old news. Although new eyes sometimes see things at a different angle and thanks for the topics this helps generate.

      Just remember your solve is right until you prove yourself wrong, why not think that way. But with that said we are wrong until we have the chest in our hands.

      Good luck Ken,
      Bur

    • The problem is, IMO, you can have (or THINK you have) 5, 6, all the clues figured out. But unless you have a bronze chest in your hands, you don’t KNOW that you even have the fist clue figured out with 100% certainty. IE I could have a very strong solve IMO, but until I find a box, I don’t really know if any of it is correct with 100% certainty. I think this really is an all or nothing game, winner take all. Anyone who says they know there WWWH with 100% certainty is (IMHO) fooling themselves, or just a fool. I don’t think anything in the poem or book says, START HERE at POINT A. I think there is some trail and error involved, riddles, clues, and hopefully everything aligns. But I have found several places that meet all the clues. So the thing is, how do you know which is correct? Go look.

  73. Ken in TX wrote: “I cannot tell you how many searchers have IDENTIFIED the first clue correctly, but certainly more than several.”

    I’m fairly certain that “certainly more than several” means many. Fenn has said before that the definition of several means “more than 2 but not many”. So if you are MORE than several (the top bounds being < many), then you are many.

    So:

    MANY SEARCHERS have IDENTIFIED the first clue (not just showed up or passed by).

    Geesh, I'm not even to the point of getting the correct one, I just want to be confident (nailed down, as Fenn said) of what IT IS.

    • Core,
      Every time you see the poem mention “it” substitute “The Thrill Of The Chase” (IMHO) and you will see that “it” is not something to even be concerned about and there are better uses for your TTOTC time. Unless you are disregarding an “it” because “it” is still important for those who ignore “it.”

  74. EthicalDilemma;

    Let’s see how that works:

    Begin (TTOTC) where warm waters halt – So, are we to start reading TTOTC at this spot?
    And take (TTOTC) in the canyon down – Gotta take the book with us???
    From there (TTOTC) is no place for the meek – Will the book curl up in fear?

    Sorry, doesn’t seem to work for me – but what do I know? – Probably NADA – JDA

  75. JDA,

    Don’t sell yourself short. You have a great many gifts and only (1) more – most essential point to realize. (Don’t bother to ask.)

    If you accept that TTOTC is the adventuresome title for the untitled poem, then it makes perfect sense, IMHO.

    As for “needing” the book to solve, I am not in that camp. I look forward to reading it -for the first time- in retrospect, as a final personal treat and conclusion to…The End.

    • OK EthicalDilemma;

      Let’s see how that works:

      Begin the poem where warm waters halt – Makes sense
      And take the poem in the canyon down – Makes sense
      From there the poem is no place for the meek –Well, maybe

      Seems to make a lot more sense – Thanks for clarifying – JDA

  76. I promised to post the explanations about my points about the WWWsH a few days ago and here it is. Sorry about the delay. Again all of this is only in my opinion.

    —— Part of my previous post ——————
    1. Think carefully why Fenn said what he said and how.
    a) He said “warm waters” not “cold waters”.
    b) He said “waters halt” not “water halts”.
    c) He used “halt” instead of “balk” even though it doesn’t rhyme with “walk”.
    d) He said “a little girl in India can only solve the first 2 clues”.
    e) There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts”.
    You have to figure out what is “where warm waters halt” and pinpoint the particular location of one of them in light of a little girl in India.

    ———– Now my explanations ——————-
    Now I’ll try to explain about 5 points I listed above.

    a) He said “warm waters” not “cold waters”.

    The temperature of the body of waters is warm, not cold. If the temperature is cold now where they halt, the waters must have been warm where they were originated. Immediately I think the waters near the geothermal regions in the Rocky Mountains.

    b) He said “waters halt” not “water halts”.

    If these waters represent a river or a stream, there must be more than one secondary river flows into this river. Or if these waters represent a lake, the water from more than one stream consist the body of waters in the lake. If Fenn used “water halts” in his poem, then the water definitely represents a single stream or a river. Or there may be a lot of water but cannot be represented by a body of water as a definition from Wikipedia states, as one poster pointed out, “there are some geographical features involving water that are not bodies of water, for example waterfalls, geysers and rapids.”

    c) He used “halt” instead of “balk” even though it doesn’t rhyme with “walk”.

    Now this is the only place in the entire poem that the rhyming is not observed by Fenn. Why? What made Fenn do this even though he could use a word like “balk” which has similar meaning as “halt” and rhymes with “walk” two lines below. How about an alternate definition listed above? Don’t you think he tried to convey the idea that “waters” he used in his poem is referring to one of the other definitions? “Halt” means to me that the waters may temporarily stop their movement at that location and maybe change direction.

    d) He said “a little girl in India can only solve the first 2 clues”.

    I’m paraphrasing Fenn’s answer to the question here. The actual Fenn’s quote is “The little girl in India cannot get any closer than the first two clues”. The girl must have only a row resolution (maybe an old, and not used these days any more) map of the US which only shows the first two clue locations, namely the WWWsH and the Canyon down. No other small and/or unimportant location names may not be shown on this map, and therefore there is no way she could find out about other locations mentioned in the poem since these locations may not be as prominent or important as the first 2 clues.

    e) Fenn said “There are many places in the Rocky Mountains where warm waters halt, and nearly all of them are north of Santa Fe. Look at the big picture, there are no short cuts”.

    If this WWWsH is a river, there are many rivers in the RM. If this is one of other bodies of waters, of course there are many of those in the RM. And nearly all of them are located north of Santa Fe. If you want to see the forest as a whole, not the individual trees, you should look at a relatively large area in the RM as Fenn pointed out as a big picture. And if you want to focus on the small area in the RM in spite of Fenn’s saying, you can look at the small areas where one of these waters halt. “No short cuts” usually means that there is no easier way, but it can also mean literally that there is no “short cuts” from other directions or paths to any of the locations in the poem. It means that the actual path you have to take (once you’ve solved the poem) is just only one which continues all the way to the chest from WWWsH.

    — MK

  77. I thought for a long time about the first clue where warm waters stop, as many people think and write about geothermal sources, no, I don’t think so, my assumption that this is a beginning source originating at the foot of the mountains, a small stream, no oars in it.

  78. Or else such a statement, when the snow melts in the mountains, it turns into melting water tending downwards, what stops it? correctly horizontal surface namely near the foot of the mountains. How do you like the idea? In this case, of course, the water is not quite warm, but no longer ice.

    • I am not sure that it is original. If it is melted snow, how is this WWWsH spot different that a million other little streams in the Rockies? I would think a bit harder before I commit to this one but that is just me – JDA

  79. I can assume that the FF riddle should not be easy, the picture as a whole should be collected from the rest of the clues, so the first clue only determines what should be the place and not where it is, there is no exact hint of a specific place in the whole poem, since there can be thousands.

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