Home of Brown…Part Seven

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This page is now closed to additional comments. Please go to the most recent Home of Brown page to add to the discussion.

This is for a discussion about “the home of Brown” in Forrest’s poem.

Got an HOB that didn’t work out…or maybe you need an HOB for a certain area…or perhaps you have an idea that needs some fleshing out..

This is the place to discuss all things HOB…

dal…

609 thoughts on “Home of Brown…Part Seven

  1. Home of Brown !!! I know that there are many that discount Yellowstone being a viable location for the chest …. however we do know for a fact that Forest spent the majority of his (3 month summers) up in Yellowstone growing up …. we also know that Forest did in fact return there many times throughout life all the way into 2010 or so ….. that has been shown true from pictures and statements….. We know Forest loved his fly fishing …… loved fishing the Madison river …… The Madison is world renowned for its fly fishing and its (Brown Trout) !!! So many people make reference to actual places named after ranger Brown , the Brown put in etc etc …… I feel it’s quite logical that the Home of Brown would make reference to the Madison river ….. Forest speaks highly of his most fond memories of the Madison and hooking up to a nice Brown Trout …. he also stated in one of his interviews something about being able to ride a bike to where the chest is located ….. now we know Forest used to ride his bike all the time to his bathing hole from West Yellowstone….. and then back …. Forest has never mentioned riding a bike up and around the far northern part of the park near the Jim Brown put in etc ….. or near old ranger Browns place …… I therefore feel it’s more logical and reasonable that the Home of Brown would be on or near the Madison which would be the “Home of the Brown Trout” ….. Forest mentions that there is no man made trail where the chest is at …. However he does not say whether or not he walked a man made trail to get to the general area of the chest …. just some of my thoughts…. I am up in Yellowstone every July and August for the last 30 years now …… not necessarily for chest finding but rather for my relaxation and pure enjoyment of the splendor and wildlife plus some awesome fishing…..

    • Despite all of those who would disagree with you DKM, I too believe that West Yellowstone makes the most sense. I think some tend to make it overly complicated and should keep it simple. If nothing else, the area gives us all a glimpse of what life’s real treasures truly are. Thank you Forrest for opening so many peoples eyes.

      • there is a marker named Brown in the woods the creek is on the other side of the road I must return to it d some day soon it was exciting to find that but I could not put a blaze into play but the heart skipped a beat for sure oh this is to much fun ty Mr Fenn be safe you all.

  2. Here is a funny fact about brown.
    Brown light (like that you see on your monitor) is made from Red and Green (no Blue) so could be thought of as Red Black (noblue) Green. (tea anyone?)

    Funny part is that what you may see as yellow (as in Yellowstone) is the same combination of light. It just depends on what is around it. Look at this image: https://qph.fs.quoracdn.net/main-qimg-337dbec9fb0c86ea529d471367ec1f92-c (if it doesn’t load go to https://www.quora.com/Why-is-it-impossible-to-have-a-light-source-shedding-brown-light-since-both-purple-and-brown-are-mixtures-of-wavelengths-and-the-former-is-possible-and-the-latter-isn%E2%80%99t and look down the page)
    The brown square on the top is emitting exactly the same light as the yellow square on the side. Poke a hole in a piece of paper and look at it isolated. No Difference.

    Now, mixing colors is different. Yellow and purple paint mix to make brown paint. (like chamisa and mountain laurel). Hmmmm … now we have two kinds of Brown in Tea with Olga. And “One day she asked me to go to her” (strange wording, that). Made me think I should find the field where he scattered Olga’s ashes, but Forest said about the treasure site: “I was going to make it work no matter what. In my reverie I often find myself stealing away to that place and I will always consider it to be mine alone.f” Olga’s spot wouldn’t be his alone. (I know, don’t start in the middle)

    But, have no doubt, there is something going on with red black brown (other than 205).
    All IMO, of course.

    • yellow and purple… interesting.
      Could very well be a color connection on a cliff (caliph) blazing the way to the end of ff’s rainbow.

      • Smokybaer,

        Forrest wrote this once:
        “Why do the yellow and purple flowers flourish where no one is there to see? The answer is at last obvious to me. No one has to see what is there. The grass sees and the trees and rushing waters of the spring creek also see. What has made me think that I had to see the beauty that is there in order to confirm its existence?”

        Maybe there are those color flowers where Forrest secreted the chest. I’ve seen them in my search area.

        Good luck,
        Bur

        • I searched for purple flowers on my last hike. I found nothing. Maybe I went to early. It’s a good theory. Flowers would make for a nice blaze.

    • Purple Mountain in Yellowstone has been discussed. Anyway, might want to check out Jasper. The mineral, Big Red, other f book, you know. Kind of curious all the names for Jasper. Forrest fire rings a bell. Along with rainbow and alligator types. Bighorn area. Might find something interesting in that area.

  3. The Brown Trout was first introduced between 1893 and 1897 I believe into the Madison river of Yellowstone….. now the Fire Hole river warms approximately 30 degrees which promotes insects and facilitates the Brown Trout spawning etc …… begin it where warms waters halt !!!! Fire Hole river and subsequently the Fire Hole bathing spot of FF…. and take it in the canyon down …… the Madison river canyon came down in the 1959 Hebgen quake !!! Not far but too far to walk….. it is quite a long walk from the Fire Hole down to where the Madison river canyon came tumbling down ….. put in below the Home of Brown ….. meaning the Brown Trout…. the Brown Trout on the Madison river !!! There’ll be no paddle up your creek just heavy loads and water high ….. I believe that the water high refers to a favorite fishing hole that is deep which FF often fished at …. fly fishermen on the Madison do not use rafts or boats hence “no paddle” …… also fly fishermen refer to loads as in “the load on the fly line” …… given that FF was a very avid fly fisherman and also a fishing guide and had his favorite holes along the Madison river ….. it seems logical that this would make sense ……

    • When searching brown tout I found documentation that they were first introduced into the Nez Pearce creek in 1890. Not far from FF bathing spot. Theres a parking near the junction of the Firehole rive and Nes pearce creek. A nice place to park and put in. IMO

  4. No place for the meek …… meek can mean someone who does not do what someone else does …. a person that doesn’t go along with what others do …. drawing nigh can mean getting nearer or drawing to the left … the Madison river draws left just near Bakers Hole … which would also be where the Madison river canyon came down in the 1959 Hebgen quake

  5. I don’t believe HOB has anything to do with Brown trout. .IMO of course

      • What about the University of Wyoming in Laramie. They are brown, which is a little unique for college colors. Does FF have any association with UW?

        • El Dorado – University of Wyoming has a great little free art museum on campus that includes a small collection of Western Art. I didn’t see Forrest Fenn’s name show up anywhere inside, but it’s possible he may have dealt with some of the pieces at some point. Anyways, I recommend stopping by and checking it out if your travels take you through Laramie.

          • Neither has anything to do with “Brown” in Fenn’s poem.
            I wish it would be that easy but then again the treasure would have been found if it was.

          • I believe you forgot your “IMO” there, Jake.

            There are plenty of pieces inside and outside that museum that could easily be related to Brown in one way or another, and I’d say the school colors that El Dorado mentioned are fair game too. It’s also interesting to note that Highway 287 through Fort Collins and Laramie would have been the most direct highway route that the Fenn’s would have taken on their drives between Temple and Yellowstone before the interstates were constructed.

          • Ya, well, everything is fair game to you from what I read here.
            Spread yourself too thin in all directions with all and everyone.
            I got my limits with HOB and all the other clues.
            It’s possible that YNP will blow up within the year but will not.

          • It’s either or JAKE! Since your from Florida means you think your evaluation has no bearing. This chase has rules abide or get off. Holy heck you have been on here longer than most and you keep coming back with smart aleck BS responses! dude show up or calm ur jets!! IMO you have nothing to base your chase, lol you were looking at a tree on a hillside really dude Florida look for sunken ships your better off!

          • Evernigh…or should I say Travis, or Travis Brown or Randy Johnson… You too might want to refresh yourself with the rules before you run around accusing others of infractions..

          • All apologies EverNigh,
            We need to chat about HOB here.

            So, you’re going down a canyon and you need to change direction by – putting in below the hoB.
            If you – put in – before where you need to change direction again in the poem, then you should be OK.

            If you keep going down the canyon and go past the place where you were supposed to – put in – AND – draw out – I think you may not have the 3rd clue because I think some of the clues have a distance and/or a limit.

          • Who ever anyone thinks I am I have been Questioning anyone here not pointing but saying what Any one has done or where they have said that have been!despite who anyone thinks i am! There has been no harm and no foul.

  6. Home of Brown is the hardest part of the poem to figure out. But I do like the Madison most of all

    • there is a fish hatchery that releases browns below manby hotspring in arroyo hondo

        • Morning JDA,

          In the spirit of accuracy I provide the following quote; “…..the treasure is not associated with any structure” which he’s reiterated many times.

          Then he kind of confused matters IMO with this Q&A response because two questions were asked but his answer can be interpreted different ways, one of which would appear to support what you said above.

          “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits? Thanks, d

          Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information. f”

          My interpretation is that his comments apply only to the treasure and not hoB or any other clues for that matter. I suspect you may disagree with me and that’s certainly okay.

          Please take care…..pinatubocharlie

  7. HOB is probably the hardest clue. So what if it’s in there to throw us off? IMO the TC can be found without ever having to use HOB as a clue.

      • Luck Ryder,
        I’m on board with that new thinking. I recently sent Mr. Fenn an email after my last BOTG stating that very premise.

        “There are a few words in the poem that are not useful in finding the treasure” f
        1. Home
        2. of
        3. Brown

        • Here is another supporting quote for HOB not being a clue.

          Carol Off: “Well some of them seem…Some of the clues maybe are things that people would locally know. You say, Begin it where warm water halt and take it in the canyon down. Not fat but too far to walk. But in below the home of Brown. That seems like a couple of clues to me.”

          Fenn: “That sounds like three or four to me.”

          Uhm yeah? it’s three. Just a theory….

          • Jeff;

            Why would you say that “Here is another supporting quote for HOB not being a clue.?” If four things are mentioned 1) WWWsH 2) Canyon Down 3) too far to walk and 4) hoB, and Fenn says: “That sounds like three or four to me.” – Why would this exclude hoB. If only three, why wouldn’t you exclude NFBTFTW since that is not a place, and the other three are? I can’t follow your logic. Can you please explain.

            Seems that identifying hoB is important since it tells you where to exit the canyon. Sure sounds like a clue to me. JMO – JDA

          • P.S. despite this quote, I see only two clues.
            1) BIWWWsH, ATIITCD, NFBTFTW
            2) PIBThoB.

            Forrest said “That sounds like three or four to me.” Note the “Sounds like” -He did NOT say that there were three or four, only that it Sounded like three or four- JMO – JDA

          • Hi JDA,

            All theory to drive new conversation. Based on quotes it’s possible that’s really the point.

            Just got back from week long BOTG. About 5 BOTGs. So reflecting on that and trying to spark new thinking.

            How have you been? Hope all is well. Jeff

          • Hi Jeff – Glad you are back safely. Wish I could go on a week-long BotG. excursion. Sorry you didn’t find Indulgence – Hope you had an enjoyable outing though. All is good on my end – Thanks for askin’ – JDA

          • If Cleveland, NM qualifies as hoB, then you might also consider Mt. Jackson (Browne) near Madison Junction in YNP. (Or Mt. Cleveland near Glacier).

        • Hi Jeff,

          IMO these 3 words are most important in the poem.

          Reporter: In the poem, which you say has nine clues, there are references to water, there’s references to Brown’s house; who is Brown?
          Forrest: There is reference to wood.
          Reporter: But you didn’t answer my question, Who is Brown?
          Forrest: Well, that is for you to find out; If I told you that, you’d go right to the chest. (10:41) 4/21/13 World Report.

          At the same time we know that searchers that solved WWWH and CD couldn’t find the blaze and TC. Forrest said: “Searchers have come within about 200 feet. Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.”
          So, if you are within 200 feet from TC you already passed the hoB (maybe even without knowing it). It looks like that Forrest never get correct solutions for the hoB from searchers (he is not certain about clue #4 solving).

          • I agree that searchers may have been below home of Brown without knowing it, but FF’s comment doesn’t make it a requirement that they have. And he is not sure they knew what HoB was. They could have have walked through or by this below HoB area and not known the significance of where they were.

          • And most agree that ‘below the hoB’ is a location/ place and also not the last clue, which means that it should be found on Google Earth or a good map.

          • OZ10;

            The question is – “Will you recognize the hoB for what it is once seen on Google Earth or a topo Map?” My guess is “No”. JMO – JDA

          • JDA, I don’t know about that. Why would you even go on BOTG without having solved the poem? When did ff said it was ok to go on a hunch and see if something out there in the woods magically appears to match your guesses? If that is the case then you got the wrong solve. You have to be able to correctly solve, understand and match the clues to the correct places on the map or google earth. Except the last one.

          • OZ 10;

            I agree with you. I guess that my point was that the hoB may NOT be something that most people would recognize as a or “THE” “hoB”. My hoB certainly falls into that category. Unless one has picked up on a couple of hints scattered within TToTC, most people would walk or drive past my hoB and NEVER give it a thought – re it being the hoB. Locals MIGHT know, and a few “Old-timers” and a few people that have studied the area MIGHT know, but then again, might not. Just me Ramblin’ JDA

          • JDA, if only you and other ‘old timers’ like you said will be the only ones that could say “why didn’t I think of that?” but not the average searcher, again you have the incorrect solve. If he’d built the chase only for old timers then he would’ve hint to that important possibility at some point in the last 9 years. The redneck from Texas with 12 kids will have no chance at knowing what you and the other local old timers know about that place, doncha think???

          • What if the H.O.B. is not a “real” place? But one, that with an imagination, can be found.

          • JDA, your comments about TTOTC hints to choose your hoB seem to fly in the face of this ff comment:

            Mr. Fenn,
            You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze hinted at in the book.
            My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW

            No I don’t madam, sorry. f

            So, to paraphrase my interpretation, he does not, in even a subtle way, indicate which is the correct solution to Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze.

            Seems like an important point to me.

            mBG

          • mBG;

            Nowhere in TToTC does Forrest say, “This is what the hoB is.” (Nor any of the other clues) He has indicated that hints are sprinkled in TToTC that will help with the clues. For me, it is a matter or “Reading between the lines.”

            I have posted this quote so many times, most have it memorized: http://reportfromsantafe.com/episodes/view/144/forrest-fenn/

            “There are nine clues in the poem, and the clues are in consecutive order. If you want to find the treasure chest – you have my book there – I’ll tell you how to do it. Read the book just normally … the poem and the rest of the book, and then go back and read the poem 6, 8, 10 times – study every line, every word. Then after you do that, read the book again, slowly, with the idea of looking for clues or hints, that are in the book that will help you follow the clues. You can find the chest with just the clues, but there are hints in the book that will help you with the clues.” f

            These are Forrest’s instructions on how to solve the poem. It is my guide, and IMO, should be yours and all other searchers – JMO – Forrest is NOT going to say “Here is a hint to help solve clue #X, but he has said this:
            In your memoir, The Thrill of the Chase, after the poem, you mention there are subtle clues sprinkled throughout that book. You have said you hadn’t deliberately placed these subtle hints in your book; but have you done so in any of your other writings mentioned in Question two (scrapbooks, vignettes, etc)? Or, even if maybe not purposely sprinkled in those writings of Q2, would you consider some of those to contain subtle hints too, like in The Thrill of the Chase?
            I don’t want to broaden the clues and hints I’ve written about by pointing them out. What surprises me a little is that nobody to my uncertain knowledge has analyzed one important possibility related to the winning solve. – JDA

          • Lol, meBG, JDA is very much aware of that ATF. In fact, I’m pretty sure everyone is, since I beat it into the ground. My interpretation is also, there is no answer given by f for those particular things. Two of which we know are clues. He sure doesn’t come out and give the answer, and it’s not hidden, (to me means no answer given by f).
            Also, seems to support that hoB doesn’t have an answer, (meaning we don’t have the answer to what it looks like, where it is, etc…).
            I think too much time is being wasted on trying to solve clues. If you solve the poem, the clues will solve themselves. It’s the part that solving clues is not the same as solving the poem that searchers don’t get, IMO. They are too tied up in needing to solve clues, which yields a poem solve. Which is wrong, because of the ATF, you posted. But, to each their own, I guess.
            If searchers are okay with a different interpretation of an ATF, then there is nothing to say. Example, JDA shared his wwwh with me in an e-mail. Because I kept throwing this ATF in his face. I won’t go into it, but I had to say that it was very well thought out. Used the poem, and came up with a good reason for his wwwh. As much as I liked the way he came up with it, (and it’s the best, besides mine, that I’ve seen), I couldn’t overall say it was correct because of the ATF. He even used the word subtle to explain some points. But our discussion ended there, because the way he saw it, he was fine, and good with it. So in the end, if he’s good with it, I have no problems with his interpretation being different then mine. Besides, it probably gave him a little confidence when a vet searcher tells him that it is a good wwwh. He wasn’t guessing, used the poem, and didn’t throw some dart at a map. It was well thought out, but if you ask me, because of the ATF, it’s not how f intended for wwwh to be found. In fact meBG, most of the ATF’s can be interpreted multiple ways, the trick is to understand that and not hang your hat on just one interpretation, but to see all.

          • Hi Andy,

            I’m tracking with you 100%. I have studied those quotes dozens of times.

            What am suggesting is intended to be thought provoking. Imagine Mr. Fenn did tell us who Brown is and he said it’s not a clue. Should that take you right to the treasure.meaning suddenly the clues were easier to understand. Try to solve the 9 poem clues without HOB. You can still put in below, but ignore HOB and see if It changes your thinking. You never know, maybe this is the one thing that no one has thought of? Anyways, good luck to you – Jeff

          • This is all academic. But, to elaborate further:
            JDA says “Nowhere in TToTC does Forrest say, “This is what the hoB is.” (Nor any of the other clues) He has indicated that hints are sprinkled in TToTC that will help with the clues. ”
            I don’t get your point. If he did as you suggest, that would not even be subtle, it would be blatantly obvious. He said that he does not even subtly indicate the correct solution to hoB, etc.
            But, I don’t know your solution, so I don’t really know how you are using/getting/applying the hint. I stated my point, so that’s that. Maybe #40 will be the one.
            mBG

          • My belief is geography will play a huge role in identifying the correct HOB and the other end of the line… “no meek”.

          • Hi Smokybaer,
            I’m also 100% agree with your statement that “geography will play a huge role in identifying the correct HOB” (not sure about second part i.e. “and the other end of the line… “no meek”). “Forrest has said over and over to marry the poem to a map, and that the poem IS a map” (citation from JDA post). And maps are main tools of geography.

          • Can I toss a long shot out there….what if WWWH is really Aqua Fria and the home of Brown is Cleveland, NM as in Cleveland Browns

          • Andy,

            One other thought (again, i am trying to spark different/adjusted thinking). What if when you reach NFBTFTW (in this scenario clue #3), there is only one obvious place to PIB (Clue #4), and when you do that it is also obvious that FTINPFTM (Clue #5). At that point (all in theory) you are past HOB in the poem but could be in the correct position to continue forward to the next clue which could be TEIEDN (Clue #6). Just tossing the salad a little here.

            This actually happened to me during a recent BOTG. But, i would have never known this from google earth. It wasn’t until i got there that it became obvious and then it become painfully obvious where you must go and trust me it’s no place for the meek. Unfortunately, this was like theory solution #5 of a week long hunt and not as developed as the other 4 potential solves i had developed for this trip but after returning home and processing all of the BOTGs i now feel strongly about this possibility so wanted to throw it out for anyone else to consider.

            Good luck to you. – Jeff

    • Yup!
      The 1st time I read the poem, my eyes were drawn to the “B” in Brown.
      I’m sure it was done by design to get the most attention out of all the words in the poem. Now I don’t think it’s as important as most do.

      “B”egin is more important to me and “B”ut tells me where to cease.

    • Yes Jake, great point with the capital B. IMO a lot of time has been focused on the capital B and what it means when it might not mean anything at all. Maybe he capitalized it so that we focus on that and not on the fact that HOB is irrelevant.

      Kinda like Scrapbook 201. Don’t get me wrong, it’s a great story but I see so many people concentrating on what Mary said but no one on what FF said.

      • I have spent a few years on HOB, where it is or could be with different beginning spots WWWH and also tried what others are still trying to do now.
        Trying to look for HOB with old maps, new maps, labeled places, hundreds of people with that name in the Rockies, places like Brown Mtn, canyon, lake, river, you name it.

        Some say you need BOTG, GE, history, geology, a flashlight and sandwich, Native American knowledge, brown gravy, brown britches etc…
        I say you need imagination and skip this 3rd clue and move on.
        Go on to the next clue and see what you get.

        I will probably never know what Brown is but as I said before you can figure out where it is by skipping it if you’re in the right area.
        I know not many of you can’t fathom this but thats what makes us different.

        Brown is not what you think it is. Sound familiar?
        IMO

      • Luck Ryder, : “IMO the TC can be found without ever having to use HOB as a clue.
        I agree completely and will also say that PIBTHOB is a trap like a black hole that sucks all suckers in if they try to solve it before WWWH IMO.

        Yes I agree this is the only clue you do not need to find the treasure, but you need the other 8 and I can’t wait for the feedback by the Brownies.
        IMO

        • I don’t know Jake, everything else you wrote on the subject of Brown checks out except this notion of just skipping it, especially when we are supposed to decipher in consecutive order. Cap B or not, just keep it in order I think. No?

        • I’m with you Jake. In fact, I don’t even think it’s a clue. Too vague with no answer to, IMO.

          • “What if” home of Brown is considered a home, but is not truly the real home of this Brown.

            Without this clue solve your “put in” place is not so obvious, and you might just put in at the wrong area. Like the searchers that went right by the other seven clues.

            Again, just food for thought.

            Good luck,
            Bur

          • Bur ~ “What if” home of Brown is considered a home, but is not truly the real home of this Brown.’

            Can you elaborate a bit here? I’m not getting what your say about “this brown”

            While it is possible, not unlike – there many WWsH, there could be more than one hoB idea. So how are you interpreting “home”?

          • Seeker,
            What I’m saying is people might consider this place to be a home of Brown. But this Brown actually has their home somewhere else.

            Not sure if that is any better for you but if I say any more it might give away where I am talking about.

            Bur

          • Bur,

            I was curious if you were leaning that way… however, I wasn’t sure. { has you said- but is not truly the real home of this Brown.}

            At one time I thought the same. A hoB reference to be in another place [actually in another state other than the now 4 remaining states. ]
            The problem i see is that the hoB reference needs to have ‘use’ in the location of the actual search area. And can’t be ‘skip’

            Example; Browns-Valley Man was a thought of mine for hoB. It’s actual location is in MN. However, The remains [of Mr. Brown, a given name] sit on the 45th parallel.. so to “put in below” at the actual search area, my thoughts went to the idea of prior clues to be above, the 45th, are now sending you below it.

            I like the idea at one time because folks would be looking for something on location [ only to never be found ]. But if correct, does place a searcher in the correct spot [a spot that can be located on a map or GE, in the searchable area.]

            Now, with that idea in mind… can fenn’s statement; ~he followed the clues when he hid the chest~ work?
            Sure, the idea is more about knowing the 45th parallel, only never known of, IF hoB represent a clue that actually is out side the search area and not use as a “line” to get us back to the correct location [ difficult but not impossible to imagine ].
            The idea was, we needed knowledge the 45th, and not so much Brown, as the *deciphered clue.*

            LOL so , fenn could have simply used the 45th to guide a searcher to be within the 44th parallel on a map in the correct location, and he would have been as well, when he followed the *clues ‘deciphered’ references* line of thinking. [ is this part of the “learning curve for helping nail down WWWsH?]

            I’ll add for clarification… {if hoB is clue 3 or 4} clues 1 and 2 are on site ..so “NF” would be the idea of the parallels to be between, and “TFTW” would be where Brown is *located*.
            In this theory, hoB doesn’t help with what WWsH *is* or even a canyon, but as one moves through the poem [ if having the correct deciphering, and thoughts ] this idea of a clue *not* being in a search location does work, but is useless for the most part without the prior clues deciphered [hence needing the first clue or we have nothing to go on]… in the end… all the clues should * line up *

            In theory…. WWsH could be [example] a large area [lets say a lake] that sits on the 45th and into the 44th, so nailing down where WWsH *starting point* would need the canyon and hoB has confirmation of the correct WWsH out the the many *and* learn the starting point of that clues reference.

            But we still need figure out what warm waters halt *refers to* first and foremost… in this scenario, it is a guess as a lake just because one is in the area… imo, that would be simply force fitting only to make later clues look correct.
            If a searcher used [ lets say two merging rivers ] as WWsH, their solve is already off/wrong at the start just because there happens to be two rivers in the location, or a snow cap mountain etc. etc. All those ideas are still guessing… right?

            fenn made two comments [paraphrasing]
            ~ need to know where to start
            ~ need to start at the beginning

            While they seem similar or even the same… I think they are meant for two different idea/reasons.
            Need to know WWsH is the beginning
            and
            Need to know where to start [ starting point ] ‘at’ WWsH

          • Seeker,

            Let me say this. My home of Brown is really considered to be a home for this Brown, the one Fenn is referring to in the poem clue IMO.

            Now your WWWH idea I understand what your thought process was because I had that same idea in one of my beginning solves. But my understanding now is searchers are really not understanding how this process happens (halt), and where it happens, not just the place on a map where it is. Forrest gave a hint awhile back but I did not see anyone comment on it because the storyline was the topic for most.

            Of course what I said above is my interpretation and can be up in the air with other views.

            If your searching this year good luck.
            Bur

          • I’m with you all on this idea. Put in below is the clue, not HOB. Just my opinion. My next BOTG will use this logic.

        • Jake ~ ‘I say you need imagination and skip this 3rd clue and move on.’
          I’m not following how you can call hoB a *clue* and then say ‘ This is the *only clue* you do not need to find the treasure ‘

          “So I wrote a poem containing nine clues that if followed precisely will lead….” and the comment; the clues should be followed in order… there’s know other way to my [fenn] knowldge.
          LOL before we even read the poem we are told the whole point of this is to decipher 9 clues… not 8 or 6 or make up 10 or 12 clues.

          We also have the interview were fenn states [paraphrasing] if you knew hoB it would lead you right to the treasure… which I find Poison Ivy comment a bit strange as well, saying; ‘I don’t even think it’s a clue.’

          Regardless of *opinion* – How can hoB not be a vital piece of information when we are told, it is, by the guy who created the clues, designed the poem with/containing 9 clues?

          • Maybe I should have explained better.
            When you take your quest in the canyon down and you get to the end of that canyon, just “put in” and don’t try to look for HOB, just use your imagination and make it what you want because the real clue here is “put in” which in my solves would be the Madison.

            So your in the Madison River and let it take you down stream all in your imagination of course. You really don’t have to physically put a rubber dingy in the Madison just in your imagination.

            “From there” is the “put in” place for the next clue.
            All in my imagination.

          • Jake,

            How do you know where the end is exactly?
            IF the correct solve doesn’t have ‘water’ to ‘put in’… then wouldn’t hoB [ being a feature of sorts ] be ‘needed’?
            The idea of just having a river handy to tip your toe in, kinda forces hoB to be of water only.

            So while we’re talking about the “put in”

            It just seems you rely on water a lot.
            I find it interesting that “put in” with the use of water or water related; normally means to dock, or enter port. But many use as entering water.

          • The end of the Firehole Canyon or beginning depending how you look at it is obvious with Google Maps. It’s right where the Gibbon and Firehole meet to make the Madison and then from there it’s Madison Canyon (East) the other Madison Canyon is around the Heb dam area I think.

            Canyons are made from flowing water.
            Where warm waters halt.
            “put in” is a also a water term.
            Creek is water.
            I got water on the brain when I read the poem.

          • My comment comes from the ATF, no answer for, and just the overall guessing that goes with hoB. At that point of the poem, it isn’t so far fetched to say that the chest is put in below the home of Brown. Talking in a future tense. Who says that WE must “put in”? For us to have to “put in” does not sound very precise to me. Right when he says “not far”, he could just be looking forward and be referencing the chests’ placement. (a long distance to walk, below some hoB). Then, from where you are at, (canyon), you enter into no place for the meek. At this point, has nothing to do with what a searcher does, so no clue. Just an observation.

            Nowhere does f say this is a clue. In fact, he has said that he has not given an answer to that reference. So, if no answer, how can you think it is a clue to solve? If it is a clue, with no answer, then it is found BotG. That leads to the whole line just being too vague. If it is a “put in” thing, then where? Missing small at the start would lead to missing big at the end. It is too general, too vague, and not precise enough to be a clue, IMO. And, I know you were paraphrasing, but, the hoB does not lead anybody to anything. (I don’t have the ATF either, but don’t think it was lead, I could be wrong). No matter, the hoB would not be a clue if f is just making an observation at that point.
            If he is saying not far, but too far to walk, whether you think that is a long distance or not, isn’t he making an observation at that point? Which would lead to another observation?
            The strange thing is that searchers are not considering these things. Most are putting in somewhere, that’s fine, I just don’t get how, when they don’t have an answer for hoB, because f has not supplied the answer.
            Lastly, hoB must be some single object. Landscape, home, graveyard, whatever. How can it be considered a clue? It gets you no closer to where you are going. The clue would be “put in”. The thing is, exactly where? So, is hoB just a reference to let you know if you are on the right track? How can that be if we won’t even know we have the right start place until we have the chest? That would put the hoB as unnecessary. Is it a guide to let you know where to “put in”? Again, not a clue. It would be the “put in” and the “put out” that would be more the clue.
            Whatever hoB is, it will stand the passage of time, that leads it to not be something small that will not make it, right? Streams and rivers may dry up, houses cemeteries, buildings might not make it. Animals may not frequent the area 1000 years from now. Makes the landscape the most possible. That would be a large area, not a clue, IMO.

    • Lucky,

      You might want to check out a Q&A regarding ‘tomfoolery’ and fenn’s response…

      • Thanks Seeker. I have seen that question and I do find FF’s response interesting.

  8. Question: Do we know for a certainty that all clues in the poem are between 5000′ and 10200′? Or is it just the chest within those parameters?

    Often times I like to think ff saw his hiding spot from the sky and made notes to return to it. If that were true, HOB could be elevation on a sectional chart. Of course, this would probably fall below the 5000′ parameter, but since it’s entirely possible that the chest is ‘up a creek’ one could assume that a clue may fall outside of those parameters, but the chest does not.

    • There’ll be no paddle up your creek simply means that one does not need a paddle to get to the chest …. Remember that FF did this chest placement in two trips on one afternoon…… he stated he walked from the car ….

      • Well, I actually think ‘no paddle up your creek’ is important to finding HOB, but that’s not really my question here.

        My question is in regard to whether or not all the clues are on the map, or if all clues are within the elevation parameters. Perhaps the elevation parameters only apply to the chest itself? What if you’re going down a canyon and get to an elevation of 4800′, but then go back up to an elevation of 5000′ and find the chest? That’s all I’m getting at here. Or what about the ff quote regarding many places WWWH, most of them north of Santa Fe. Maybe people are reading that backwards, maybe what he’s really saying is focus on the WWWH south of Santa Fe because there’s fewer of them, then go not far but too far to walk (8.25 miles maybe?) and you’ll be back on the map within the parameters he’s given for the chest.

        • elpapa – The elevation at Baker’S Hole Campground is 6,600ft. Like ‘FF00’ or ‘Forrest Fenn Double Omegs’, maybe?

          There are a couple of old time graves at Cozy Corners at the appropriate distance and altitude in relation to the shore of Hebgen Lake. I think Forrest considered the ‘water high’ and altitude at my hidey spot, when he originally planned to lay under a tree and quietly sink into the Earth (paraphrased). The “pillowed down and scented in” part in “Flywater” could have ‘something’ to do with the pine trees and Canadian geese I can see in pics, and that are mentioned on that interpretive sign with the Brown trout on “IT”.

          All IMO.

          • Jake – Thank you! I posted that pic in another comment. But I have one here, where I can read the text clearly. Like where the interpretive sign mentions the Brown trout are Loch Leven trout.

            Here is my REAL home of Brown:

            https://www.highlandtitles.com/blog/lochleven-castle-and-the-last-queen-of-scotland-part-1/

            Sadly, Mary Queen of Scots did not win that game of thrones. She lost to her head. To my namesake, QE1. Wasn’t there a Brown guy and an explosion involved? I will have to Google that story.

            Maybe that “put in” is a latitude thing? Gotta go check those coordinates in Scotland and compare them to Baker’S Hole.

            Love, Elizabeth

          • You wrote to Eaglesabound:

            “The walls keep getting higher and higher with no end in sight.”

            That was ‘keep’:

            ‘I Kincross keep my secret where…’?

            I give you the classic Medieval keep: the Tower House. And a reference to this home of the brave, saved by William Wallace of “Braveheart” fame. His last words in that movie were: “Freedom!”

            Note: Lots of Grey geese. Anser anser by name.

            ‘The Ansers I already know..’?

            And that Medieval siege scene on the bronze chest.

            No Brown with Mary Queen of Scotts. Just that Guy Fawkes with the Gunpowder Plot. And the latitude is about 8° too far North.

            But Loch Levin Island has features that remind me very much of my Double Omega Island hidey spot at Baker’S Hole.

            All IMO.

  9. All this talk about the Home of Brown not being a significant clue ….. but nobody states a logical starting point for where warm waters halt …… if anyone really studies Forest Fenns childhood and through his youth…. one would see that he was all about fly fishing….. and that he remarks many times on this Brown Trout he would catch in the Madison…. if the warm waters halt on the Fire Hole river ….. which was FFs favorite bathing spot….. then the Madison would be the most likely HOB….. remember that the Madison river canyon came down in the Hebgen quake…. take it in the canyon down …… FF also mentions that the clues themselves did not exist when he was a child but the area of the clues did exist

  10. its my opinion – that there is no home of brown that has that name on a map at least not the one ff is talking about – I think its a clue that ff seen- on GE or its something he saw while flying and yes its something that he him self has named – 1 – its not a real home its a place – and by that I mean its not a structure-2- brown- its a land formation that he has named brown and this place is his home

  11. Let’s imagine for a moment that we are a teacher introducing some kids to a new kind of jigsaw puzzle, and those children have done puzzles before, but we are going to start it with words, ok remember we first would normally introduce a puzzle with a picture of how it should look when finished. However not this time, just words. So Miss Ford introduces the puzzle this way:

    “Now children, today we will show you an experiment using your own imaginations, to see if the image (picture) of our puzzle can be seen, sorta like closing your eyes but seeing the apple tree in the school yard garden near the place where the former teacher’s grave is at, now how many of you children see an Apple Tree? Remember that this is spring time and the blossoms are white and pink petals, the leaves have just shown as buds so now imagine that you have never seen nor eaten an Apple before, not tasted nor understood the vibrant color or smell of apples. Now since I am teaching you how to use your imagination I will give you a hint, they are red and sweet like your mother, and smell like her jelly for the canning with a tangy, sweet spicy flavor. Can you make or draw me a picture of the tree? Now the best tree picture will be placed on a piece of wood and the old wood cutter, Dal has agreed to jigsaw it into 166 pieces. If you want you can include Mrs Brown’s grave marker, she was the former school teacher here at Leadville School House, she was so wonderful to me when I was your age. Now get started and make sure you color inside the lines”

    Sooo What have we learned from this? Helps to think like a kid, now what would we need to “show” in the beginning of our picture, the puzzle of the school yard garden? Teacher has shown us this with the words, defined as hints, at first and since WWWH is the first clue then it has got to be a WHAT? It rhymes with the order, as in the____ of the stars, and since our teacher was an orderly or straight line middlie, did I spell that correctly (her nickname) we might see WWWH as somethin besides a stupid old hot springs.

    Well its not raining our and all this is just too much like work, and I never really liked drawing pictures much so I’ll just sneak out the window and slide down the rusty old BANNISTER, to freedom, like that story in my favorite book about the kid who catches children and keeps them from falling off the cliff, you know the one, he saves kids yet cannot keep his own life straight long enough to get an education, think I’ll just bum around a while or join the Service, maybe the Navy or Air Force, that should straighten me out. TIME will tell.

    How difficult to described in 166 pieces what has been illustrated here but deeper yet is the numbers game, and that is the key, what do you imagine are the co ordinates of the blaze, the final clue that you will not get help from google earth on. Why did it take so long to see.

    Speakin of See, See you at the S 019 Fennboree! WoOpy eee!

    TT

  12. There’s a reason that no one seems to get past the first couple clues.

    And there’s a reason that HOB is in the middle of those clues.

    If the poem were straight-forward directions, you would think someone would have been able to find this TC. It’s not straight-forward, it’s a puzzle and IMO HOB is the catch to the puzzle. I’m not saying HOB isn’t a clue, I believe it is. What I’m saying is that I don’t think it’s a clue that’s needed to solve the poem. I think it’s a clue that’s meant to throw us off. I love that Jake said “you need imagination”….anyone with knowledge can figure out what the clues are but it takes imagination to understand the clues.

    • I believe I worded this wrong.

      I meant to say: There’s a reason that no one seems to get past the first couple clues and there’s a reason that HOB is in the middle of the 9 clues. To me, WWWH is the 1st clue and HOB is the 4th clue, which can be omitted if you know the location of the 5th clue. HOB is vague and meant to throw us off while still being a real clue.

  13. Lucky, Forrest would not add something to the poem to throw us off! He said straight forward………
    In order………no red herrings imo.
    Home of Brown? Important clue!

    • Lou Lee-

      He did it with the book.

      “Non-fiction writers don’t have to be right but 85% of the time.”

      Not everything in that book is straight-forward so why should we think everything in the poem is?

  14. Lucky Ryder, well said, the problem to focus IMO is on the one of “WHERE is the Home of Brown, not so much a “put in” in it longitudinal or other relationship/proximity it may only be expressed for its value as a co ordinate, for use at the creek where you put into water. Imagine if each clue moves you closer to Indulgence, does demand or infer that me it, Browns home sits close to WWWH or even halfway to the blzae?

    Perhaps not, because as you stated it is after all in the middle of some clues even ff admits so to speak. Just subtle as the blaze being espressed as past tense, HOB could be well away and is only a frame of coordinate, like a mountain top off in the distance, take a bearing and look at a put in BELOW, later it or this could prove important to navigation from the put in.

    It was 28 degrees this am at my house south of Santa Fe, NM, this might be a good day to sit and think by a juniper fire, too much wind to play golf so…shucks all I have are a bunch of dead Aspen Wood, smokey that. Burns quick just like a blade runner the fire cuts thru it.

    TT

    • Tom Terrific: “Perhaps not, because as you stated it is after all in the middle of some clues even ff admits so to speak”

      Tom, I find it difficult to figure out what you’re trying to say.
      What did Fenn admit to?
      Thanks.

      • Jake, my first reference for that comment comes from the Forrest Fenn interview at the Lure, IMO ff is insinuating that more than 2 clues may have been solved or disclosed, but not in the correct order, furthermore he is describing “The Blaze” (past tense) the same as he used to describe “Where Warm Waters Halt”: This very short interview and too the point.

        nhttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9czRin3Tas

        My second reference, or as I like to call them, my “camps for a new frame of reference” is from this, you must click on LISTEN (blue arrow) to hear it’s at 4:39 fenn says it. Interview was produced 03/05/13 only 7 min long.

        https://www.cbc.ca/radio/asithappens/monday-cyprus-crisis-retiring-prostitutes-muzzled-scientists-1.2942211/sante-fe-treasure-hunt-1.2942225
        Jake, I have been at this since 2011 and rarely does a scrap of kno a ledge get past me, I retired in 2010 but my wife still works in Santa Fe, NM not that it give me any insight, but time is closing in on Mr Fenn and I am amazed at the fact he seldom says this, which I have only heard once ” see 2:05 into this https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aJBakBqwQVs.” Now I know where you are searching Jake, and it is a picture perfect spot, good luck and good hunting.

        TT

        • OK, so I listened to the videos and audios and got this:
          We need to know “WHERE” the HOB is and I’ve also said that many times but I don’t think we need to know “WHAT” it is many times.

          “I don’t know that anybody” I’ll stop right there. He says he doesn’t know in the Lure video.

          The video at 2:05 he’s not saying anything. Could you give me a hint or say something like 2:05 – 2:32.

          Anyway, I was asking what Fenn admitted to what you said he did? Nevermind.

        • Not sure how those interviews make your point about HOB not being on the route to the treasure (which, BTW is a great idea). What about (paraphrasing, which is dangerous) the idea that the clues are contiguous and produce a map to the treasure? And that they get progressively easier? How about his statement that if you knew HOB you could go right to the treasure? Or am I missing another point you are making?

          • That’s right! Big Guy. It’s not only my logic but it’s what Forrest has said too.

          • If you knew where HOB was (and that it’s irrelevant) you could go right to the chest. Makes perfect sense to me. We’ve been foxing with HOB for 9 years and using it hasn’t helped a single person get to that TC so why keep doing the same thing. It’s a puzzle that just happens to contain directions too. PUZZLE.

    • TT-

      Sounds like a great day to sit by a fire and think. That’s how FF starts his book. Maybe you’ll find some of that “awareness” that he speaks about that a lot of us seem to be lacking lol 🙂

  15. HOB tells you where wwwh from there (hob) so you can double check that you are in the right place or going the right way – HOB tells you – from there its no place for the meek the end is ever drawing nigh there be no paddle up your creek just heavy loads and waters high this tells me (waters high) to go north where i will find the blaze in the wood your efforts will be worth the cold – hob tells me not to go south -east or west so there is only one way to go and that’s north – so I think that hob is the map to get you to the treasure chest

    • Perhaps so Frank, but I tend to think one can also be lead astray by this clue. Consider the searchers that got two clues right and went by the rest. Did they find something that was a more obvious HoB and headed to that? All the while the real spot, either the real HoB, or the real Put in below spot was a little more obscure. Double checking against the wrong HoB could send you the wrong way.

      • Aaron – maybe so Aaron but you cant go by what happened to other people – read the poem and try to understand it ff said the poem has all you need to find the TC – don’t let other peoples luck distract you that’s what leads you astray that is my opinion

        • I totally agree Frank, however it is proven to be easier said than done. All I’m saying is the most obvious HoB may be a fake! Perhaps if the poem is solved correctly though then the solver will know the difference.

          • Aaron- imo nothing about the poem is fake -there is a real wwwh and hob – why wait till the poem is solved to find out about hob – you are letting your self down by thinking that way – you can do it- you can find all the clues – don’t cut yourself short get in there and find it good luck

          • Frank, I don’t think you get what I am saying. I’m totally confident in my thinking abilities. All I am saying is, as way of learning from the close searchers mistakes, watch out for what you think might be clues leading you away from the treasure. Good luck to you.

        • if wwwh is below no place for the meek that’s where hob is which way would you go – north east south -or west from no place for the meek to get to wwwh

          • That’s a good question Frank. I had the same question when it came to my solve…what is above/below and what direction would I be going. Maybe North but down at the same time…I guess it comes down to perception of the location, elevation, which way the water flows and a million other things. IMO, the map is to get us to the spot and rest will be solved using imagination, therefore, IMO, North/South/East/West don’t mean as much as we might think.

          • Lucky Ryder- if you knew what below hob means you would understand that you have to go east to wwwh you don’t start going north till you get to hob where all the clues are
            hob
            – north
            wwwh
            that’s the way I understand it
            if it was any other way it would say put in south of hob or another direction . imo you have to go north from hob from there to get to the TC jmo

          • Hey Frank-

            If it makes sense to you and your solve (meaning HOB) then use it and good luck to you. I think my comments may have sparked some thought in a few people and after 9 years of not solving this poem, I think new ideas (right or wrong) is what may be needed. Our HOB may be different, but the passion searchers feel is across the board and in the end, that’s part of the treasure….IMO of course 🙂

          • Hey Lucky Ryder good luck to you to – my comment wasn’t meant to change their way of thinking or any ones for that matter – you continue your way and should others and I will go my own way right or wrong its still my opinion frank

      • Thanks Ken that’s nice of you to say that I didn’t think any one noticed I was gone lol – that made my day Ken thank you frank

          • Hi Clint – Thank you Clint – well im still here and still fighting it and thanks to all of you for your prayers – sometimes its painful and I want to give up and some days I feel ok and the fight continues – but im hanging in there Clint – thanks for wishing me well Frank

  16. Just like the clue WWWH we have two schools of thought that developed and still are, Home of Brown may have split in a similar fashion, those who believe it is in a closer physical distance, perhaps in the middle like 4th or 5th distance wise, and those like me who think it is someplace else, no place for the meek is similar, since the poem says FROM THERE it is no place for the meek, you do not necessarily have to GO in there, just a frame of reference to recognize, and it surely has a Latitude that could be important for navigation later.

    I think these split camps in our observations like the hot spring, and the other camp I am from exist in the secondary layer of dimension our imaginations create. SO me say patato some misspell po taato but we think of the veggie dont’s we unless some one sees fries, do we want ketsup with that? Perhaps the reason that not anyone to ff’s Uncertain knowlanedge has gotten more than a few and perhaps in the wrong order?

    Decide today which camp or dimension holds your knowlege hostage, now where is that backward bike video?

    TT

    • Tom Terrific – My “camp” is Brown’s Camp aka Baker’S Hole. What did Forrest write about “knowlege” and on which bronze figure or bell? And wouldn’t a Captain Kidd Island in the Public Domain of a Montana waterway be the very definition of freedom? Held hostage? A Maverick who dreams of pirates like Forrest? Hardly.

      “O’er the land of the free and the home of the brave.”
      – Francis Scott Key

      I See Skippy. And Fireworks.

      IMO.

        • Lisa, speaking of intentionally misspelled words, this one baffles me up to a point..But to Forrest it is umbilical, this. is sublime yet concrete to me, a fellow Vet…Knowlege is knowlanedge knowl noll land on the edge, listen carefully to a fennism on part of that word Knoll might mean: 2nd stanza the entire verse “Is it my Candy Ann” book “Once”. :

          “Or maybe it’s a desperate soul, an eager sort, standing on a woody knoll,
          Waiting for the whirling Candy Ann, who in her usual rescue chore,
          Will come to get the willing man, and bring him home forevermore.”

          Seems so odd to me that in 2008 this happened; https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Knol

          So why is that important you ask? Because to know a ledge like that one is to be umbilically tied to Candy Ann and that place forevermore.

          I know umbilical attachment are like your feeling toward “Yellowstone” and the attraction is strong, but fate and time may desert us from our attachments and a new love may find its way into our grownup self, so somewhere in the Rocky Mountians is a place where memories and dreams are so vivid and revered by Forrest that he invested a million to save it, like he got saved by Candy Ann.

          It must have felt like home to Fenn when he entered “Alone in There” and I feel the key has always been a place where he excavated, an ancient place, where you touch down and find contentment.

          Is it the key? Perhaps, but we shall see at Fennboree S 019

          TT

          TT

      • Tom Terrific – Was it you or OS2 who said Forrest put that upper X on the map on page 99 of TTOTC on the losenge of a quincunx?

        If you pinpoint Campsite #61 on this Baker’s Hole Campground map, then go to Google Earth satellite view, you will see that a perfect losenge-like tent site corresponds to that X placement in relation to my babkwards bike S blaze:

        http://lh3.ggpht.com/_3-PWZ861xD4/TIhX3yXjGoI/AAAAAAAAJkY/Lzg__Fq-Pzg/s1600/BakersHoleMap2.jpg

        Did Forrest and his Father camp in the Airstream at site #61, I wonder?

        All IMO.

      • Good luck with all that, Lisa. I hope you’re enjoying seeing the things you
        are seeing.

          • Lisa, I figured (from the frequency of your postings) that you either enjoy or are addicted to it, or both. Have you made any big plans for spending your time after this hunt ends?

  17. Jake Faulker,

    I too have been in the Madison River area. I want to share with you and everyone else, where I went, what I was looking for and what I found.
    My WWH is Madison Junction as there are no more geysers beyond the confluence. My map takes me down the canyon about 3.5 miles. HoB could be where the fall spawning trout come up out of the lake to make a nest for dropping their eggs, or Hob could be the nest of a Brown Creeper along Hwy 191. We may never know what HoB really is. My “put in” takes me across the river and up a creek that is strewn with down timber from the fires of ’88. You can see it on GE but you cant see water. A mile or more up the side canyon you can see water on GE. Around the side of Mt Haynes, way up high in the side canyon. The route up the creek is no place to take your fly rod with your Meeks reel as it is just too congested. The Blaze can be seen in the fall. It is a lone aspen tree in all of its golden glory on the hill side above. My look quickly down took me to 44° 38′ 35′ N 110°56’17″W which on GE looks like a cave. FF says its not in a cave but he didn’t say that it’s not in a Lava Tube. With the proximity to the cone shapes right in front of this hole I was convinced this was the place.
    My route of choice was to “jump off” at Seven Mile Bridge. Seven Mile Bridge is near the Omega created by the pull out to the picnic area which is off of the Omega shaped bend in the Highway. It is also right at the border of the county line. I hiked up the right side of the river following the Elk and Buffalo trails to the second island in the river. I then cut up through the new growth that replaces the forest that was burned in ’88. No easy way through this for about 100 yards. 10 years ago it would have been easy walking but now it is like forging through a Bamboo jungle or 12′ tall CRP grass…it’s thick! When I got to the bottom of the scree field it is easy walking again. Fields of boulders of all sizes are home for may small animals. There are countless places to hide, maybe even some large enough to hide a body, but I was headed to that hole. A last push through some downed timber and the creek comes close, that comes down from the canyon above. The spring water was definitely running high on this day, but so much timber down across the creek there would be no way to travel up it from the river. Another few yards and my destination would be about 20′ above the creek bottom, pointed at the cone shaped hill on the opposite side of the creek.
    There it was. 2.3 miles and 90 minutes from the truck I had left at the bridge. No human trails close by. But wouldn’t you know, some prankster had gone in there and put a 12′ round flat rock over the opening of my lava tube.
    I had a theory on everything. I’ve been looking at this spot on the earth since December. My wife and I tried a month ago to get to it and were turned back by snow in the new trees that made it impassable. 30 days later I made it, only to find that things aren’t always as they seem. Back along the scree field there are several old remnants of fire rings. Someone, many years ago, camped in that spot and no doubt warmed by a blaze.
    More questions than answers now but I still like the area. I started looking at NM in 2013 or so and then to YNP a couple years back. Three boots on the ground are enough for me. Tales of obsession have crept into my mind and my beautiful wife and I have better things to spend time on. Take this information if it helps, and forget it if it doesn’t. Good luck to all….I’m out!

    SJM

    • I love it!
      That was one of my old solves that brought me up that unnamed creek with all those trees down. Very difficult and decided to scrap it being so difficult.
      Yup, the cone shapes at the base, I studied this area extensively back in 2016?

      I didn’t make it that far up that creek, it was more of a recon mission to see how doable it was and didn’t take me long to scrub it. I also thought the paddle creek may have been one of the other creeks further down and up the Madison, the one by Three Brothers and the dry creeks way down.

      There were so many tourists and fishermen around on the Madison it made me think I was at the wrong spot to park to hide the treasure.

      Thanks for sharing, I feel better that I’m not the only one that liked those creeks on the other side of the Madison in the canyon.

      • If you don’t see the Home of Brown after going down the canyon. Than you took a wrong turn!

    • Thanks for sharing SJM. The dense forest growth after the ’88 fire is a fierce obstacle indeed. One that I wonder if Forrest could have truly anticipated? Anyway, good luck on quitting cold turkey…there are lots of treasures and explorations to be had in the 4 Corners region that pay off big time in experience and memories. I’m rather enjoying the winter that keeps on giving here in Durango. Imagine … Iron Horse festivities and another weekend of skiing at Purgatory on Memorial Day weekend – unprecedented fun!

      • Hey Sandy,

        You don’t have to tell me, I was born and raised there. Three time finder of the Silver Bullet. I moved to Idaho two years ago but coming back for the Blues Train next weekend. It will be a bittersweet visit. Cant wait to soak in Pagosa and eat some fish tacos at Kips.

        Take care and good luck. SJM

          • JDA,
            Eagle. I rolled through P town last weekend on the final search. I think you were out of town…..that’s what the billboard said! You are a legend there!!
            SJM

  18. Forrest talks about brown assaulting the senses in his book. And a brown stain on his pants. A brown bag when he had to run away from Texas A&M (not happy here either). So I believe HOB is something disagreeable to him. Not something positive.

    In that same arena we could tie in other situations that may have been disagreeable to him by using the color brown. For instance, Br. Own. Home of Bureau Owned. The area I was searching is owned by the Bureau of Land Management. They spent millions of dollars building a leaky dam and screwing up a creek. It basically operates like a sink drain. Now all that’s left of that creek is mud. He couldn’t go back there if he tried. It’s gone.

    • Copper… great observation and thanks for sharing. Gives me something intriguing to think about.

    • Sorry Copper;

      I just can not agree with you. My hoB is certainly nothing that is disagreeable, and it has nothing to do with the BLM – So, sorry, I can not agree – JMO – JDA

      • Well guess what. I don’t agree with you either! It happens JDA and you don’t need to apologize.

    • Good observation Copper. Can’t expect everyone to agree as some are married to their HoB, but it doesn’t mean you are right or wrong.

    • I agree with your 1st paragraph Copper.
      Some want HOB or Brown to be positive whether its an important person in Fenns life or a comfortable thought of home and others are sure what it is.
      Why can’t it be something negative where it may be a place to put in and get out of there going through the place of the meek?

      Who knows, maybe Brown is B-row-n down the stream.

    • Copper, ~ ‘So I believe HOB is something disagreeable to him. Not something positive.’
      I like the idea overall… however…

      There are many places within the search area that are natural and ‘assaulting the senses’ line of thinking. Such as the mud pots in YSP. A place that might be considered no place for the meek as well.

      I think BML lands is a bit of a stretch as you explain it;
      ‘Br. Own. Home of Bureau Owned’ as a single clue reference for Brown. The BML was established in 1946, YSP was established in 1872… what happens if another agency takes it [BLM] over [ lets say 2046] what happens to that possible clue “down the road” for searchers 200, 300 hundred years later.
      I mean seriously, do you know many of the government agency from the 1800’s that are no longer or change to the control of another department [ as an example ]? IMO, that would be a tricky clue to discover.
      But again, I like your idea of how brown is presented and might be subtle enough to consider an unpleasant type of place… at least for the majority.

      LOL If I was a driving out clues kinda guy i’d start with YS lake as WWsH {yellow in name to a warm color} canyon down, the grand canyon of YS. Obviously that distance and other clues are relatively far apart. hoB the Mud pots, FTINPFTM – Geyser Basin? The ‘end’ would be a ‘boundary line’ such as the end of the park’s property going in the same direction… It would be a nice drive, but I doubt if this is how fenn designed the clues; as a drive through tour.

      I’ll add: if a dam is involved with any clue… I personally get a little squeamish about man-made anything involved with clues. But that’s just me.

      Just rambling and rumbling…

      • All good ideas. BLM built the dam, and that won’t change. Although the governing agency might. What I was thinking was that they altered his valued place. So it went from one thing to another. The Dam is Anchor Dam if you’d like to read up on it.

        My solve didn’t pan out this summer…but I also didn’t go with complete confidence. I don’t know what home of brown is, I just have ideas from how his words in TTOTC resonate with me.

        Look at the dam on GE and tell me if you see any commonalities with his drawings. I’d be interested to hear more.

        Boy you guys are a smart bunch! This is fun! Thank you for the feedback.

        • Copper;

          If you just want to do some crazy thinking – – – When I read “home of Brown” – For some reason I think of “Home of the Brave” – I then think about the French soldier’s grave markers in “My War for Me”. My crazy mind then thinks about the “Brave men” that died in the Indo-China war, and then of all of those men that died in the Vietnam war. – – – Men in French = hommes. Mixing French and English – “Brave men” = Hommes of the Brave”. And we are back to ” home of Brown.” Rather convoluted, but that is just how my mind works sometimes. Weird huh? 🙂 JDA

        • Copper: “tell me if you see any commonalities with his drawings.”
          Who’s drawings? I don’t think Fenn drew any of those in TTOTC although 1 may be.

          • Jake, I’m in the camp that Forrest was heavily involved with the drawings even though he said he wasn’t. 🙂

          • Of course he was involved, it’s his book, I saw the video but he didn’t draw them as far as I know.

  19. Another thought I had is that you won’t know you found the home of Brown until the end. You end up at the rainbow, full of color, and then realize you had to walk through the brown to get there. Again, just an idea. Feel free to shoot holes in it.

    Speaking of color….I just noticed the emblem on Forrest Jeans in Tea With Olga looks like the center of a pansy. That’s interesting.

      • The argument of color vs a name is an interesting one. I wish I could justify the capital B. Has anyone thought of another reason this could be there other than a name? If there is no other reason, and it is not a name, it would mean it is just there to throw us off. We know that FF wanted to make it difficult but not impossible, yet at the same time with no subterfuge.

        • Aaron;

          Scroll up about seven entries, and you will see why I think it is capitalized – “Home of the Brave” sometimes denotes the USA .and is therefore capitalized.

          “Home of the Brave” is also a 2006 American drama film following the lives of four Army National Guard soldiers in Iraq and their return to the United States. In both cases, the “B” is capitalized. JMO – JDA

          • “The land of the free and the home of the brave” is found in our national anthem. That is why many refer to the USA as “The home of the Brave.”… and thus capitalizing “Brave” – JDA

        • Aaron;

          Hard to explain except that when I hear the words “Home of Brown” – My mind just automatically changes it to “Home of the Brave” – No “real” connection, except in my mind.

          It all makes sense if you are in my search area. It makes sense when you read “My War for Me.” It all ties in together.

          As a stand-alone piece of information, it seems like a far reach, I admit. Thanks for ankin’ – JDA

          • I see, well hopefully for you FF has the same connection in his mind. Though, if it there isn’t a connection in the poem alone, regardless of the book, it sounds questionable to me.

        • Hey Aaron… because the word(Brown) is in a poem, there could be alternative reasons. Poets have used capitalization in different ways for a long while. Or not…

          • Understood Ken. Emily Dickinson was one to capitalize random words that are not proper nouns. This is normally done so that the word stands out. One issue though is that shouldn’t there be consistency? Is Brown the only word in the poem that he wants to stand out? He has stressed not to discount any words. In a quote about trove: “The word trove is a very important thing.” Why not capitalize it so that it stands out as well if it is “a very important thing”?

          • Aaron… It was just one alternative to look at. I don’t believe that it is any coincidence that the capitalized word(Brown) happens to be very close to where it seems everything goes awry for searchers. Have a good one…

          • “I don’t believe that it is any coincidence that the capitalized word(Brown) happens to be very close to where it seems everything goes awry for searchers.” – Ken

            Wholeheartedly agree with this statement. Have a good one too.

          • Ken ~ ‘I don’t believe that it is any coincidence that the capitalized word(Brown) happens to be very close to where it seems everything goes awry for searchers.’

            Well, we know it’s the 3rd and 4th clue that they seem to stumble up on, Yet is Brown really either one of those clues?

            I could argue “Not Far” as clue 3 and “But too far to walk” clue 4. Yet, those two ideas [ clues 3 4 ] could represent a single thought. LOL so are they separate clues or a combination for a single though.
            To Clarify; “Not far” is a distance not to be known of, just seen / viewable. “BUT too far to walk” might be saying; don’t go there… just see what needs seeing. In this case; they could be clues of instructions rather than movement for the search… which could also indicate this is how hoB is found / discover.

            LOL so it could be a number of “clues” alluding to one reference location, line of thinking. Maybe this is why fenn counted the clues after he finished the poem?

            I’m still a strong believer there are not 9 different locations for each of fenn’s 9 clues… IMO, of course.

          • Seeker… Your comment is exactly why I used the words [close to where]. I figured there may be an end around idea in the making. HA !
            I liked your {symbol} reference and some other possibles for the capital B. If we can take Fenn at his word in terms of *straight forward* and other comments along those lines… it seems like simple logic that Brown is put right where it is, to bee noticed. The jury is still out on [why].
            You are correct when you say… ” I could argue “Not Far” as clue 3 and “But too far to walk” as clue 4″ and that is just fine by me really. Even with your clarification I can’t buy into that notion. Heck… I believe Fenn when he said [sounds like three or four to me]. Oh well…back to work for me.

          • Ken,

            LOL you know I know of how many clues in this or that line, comment… But for fun, How many is it- 3 or 4?

            I still have to ask the age old question; how many clues does it take to get to the center of the tootsie pop? How many “clues” represent a single answer or physical place on site?

            You remember~ “Most people called him JBB, but I called him JB for short. I caught a nice fish and with it he took my photo. I mean he took my photo with it.”~ SB 124

            And take it in the canyon down {clue 2}? or
            Begin it where warm waters halt and “take it in’ the canyon down {clues 1 n 2 being the same place}?.

            NFBTFTW a clue’s place, or instruction to understand how to locate hOB to “put in” below the hob of Brown?
            Are they two different clues Or clues that are needed for each other to achieve “one” thing…
            Is stanza two 4 different clues and their different places for a searcher to go, or is stanza two all the same place for the searcher to be?

            Regardless of the actual count… what is a purpose of a clue? To help figure out an answer… right?
            Well, again… how many “clues” does it take to decipher a “reference” / what fenn is actually alluding to be “known.”

            IMO..the clues can be referring different places, only they are observed from were we start. Hence- starting/looking for later clues is a folly. But we still need to know [ hopefully ] what they represent when looking at them.

          • I have to agree with Ken, that like FF said the first stanza has either 3 or 4 clues. So PIBTHOB is either the 3rd or 4th clue, which means people got NFBTFTW wrong or PIBTHOB. That being said we are basically told that finding the first clue is most important, and easier than trying to reverse engineer the poem.

            As to yellow being warm. Why not red or orange? Also both warm colors. Did the poem tell you to choose yellow? Is it because there is a Yellowstone and no Orangestone or Redstone. Sounds like a dart toss. Solve the poem and stop guessing.

          • Seeker… I hear ya loud and clear… but at the same time I have to keep in mind that Fenn has suggested in more ways than one(IMO) that the clues are quite likely… places. You know…[most of the places the clues refer to]… [try to marry the clues to a map] etc. etc. You seem to bypass these concepts when combining them to ring true together. I just can’t see how one is supposed to {take in the view} on a *good map* or GE for that matter. I don’t know man… 200 feet on GE is pretty fuzzy looking, and a 2 dimension flat map doesn’t provide much of a viewing. Good chat though…

        • Aaron,

          Not that my current solve is correct by any means, but in unlocking home of Brown, I first worked on it as a proper noun – which gave me a “lead”. I quickly learned that it led me to hundreds of locations in the Rockies. I then worked to reduce that number to something workable – I did that by finding a second meaning for home of Brown – completely unrelated to the first and not needing a capitalized “B”. I then looked for locations that met both understandings of the word.

          Subsequently, I reviewed ATFs and convinced myself that there are some confirmations (bias?) there.

          But what about beginning at WWWH? I reverse engineered. (Since this is the hoB page I won’t talk about that here.)

          In no way do I know if I am right. I won’t until BOTG. Just saying that method produced a result for me. Both a proper noun and also not a proper noun.

          TH

          • I don’t like the idea of reverse engineering. FF has repeated over and over that we have to find the first clue and we should play Canasta if we haven’t (paraphrased). We can’t just find a mud pot, Brown mountain, or Joe Brown put in and try to tie a WWWH to it. According to FF the poem doesn’t work like that.

        • Aaron,

          Colors could represent something other than color itself.
          Yellow for example is a warm color. Does anything pop in your head about what WWsH means?

          Brown capitalized could represent something other than a color or even a ‘proper name’. A symbol for instance, or symbolize something unrelated to the color.

          Gold is even a well known color, however, does it represent actual gold [treasure] in the poem or something else?
          Even the word ‘bold’ can represent different colors [primary colors].
          Blaze? ‘Bright’ colors; red, orange, yellow, green, blue, purple, pink, brown, gray, black and white.

          The point is; there are things / words stated in the poem that seem to be colors but could represent a clue that has very little or nothing to do with the ‘actual’ color.
          Example: is WarmWsH to be understood as yellowstone lake, line of thinking. {warm meaning comfortable… yellow being a warm color} Yet no color is mentioned in that line… it location is represented by “warm” for a specific WWsH out of the many [ for example only ].

          Might it be that stanza 4 is representing something of color{s} [but not actual colors] to linger a short time with marvel gaze?

          Does fenn suggest, in the intro line of the book; the words that seem to be about colors are more to the idea of clues references? His special place to find – ‘his rainbow’ – and where he secret the chest?

          More… Rambling and Rumbling

        • Aaron,

          What I have found is that Brown is both a proper noun and a color and resides at a place Forrest has hinted at many times and was discovered when running a ‘what if’. The big payoff is that HOB took me to other important places, while also serving to validate I was heading in the right direction.

          The funny thing is, I had unwittingly already been to the HOB many times in my research because I found places in the poem that took me there. Then one day that light popped on and sure enough, there it was, right where it should be.

          I shared this with my big brother but he was skeptical which was not unexpected. ‘Pure coincidence’ he said. Maybe, but I don’t think so.

          Finnally (don’t you love FennGlish? ), there’s another important relationship you’ll see as soon as you find the correct Brown.

          Pinatubocharlie

          • Hi Aaron,

            When I first began this thing, Yellowstone, like many searchers, was the place I gravitated to since I’ve been there a few times, once when a boy and again when my kids were young.

            Then I started putting things together which to be somewhere else. Then one day I found my key word in the poem and I’ve been focusing on that place ever since. 3 BOTG searches (last year) so far and I hope to do another one late summer early fall, weather permitting.

            Take care………..Pinatubocharlie

  20. Hi Aaron,

    I did not like the idea either to reverse engineer. But I was getting nowhere with the first clue.

    After I determined my WWWH through reverse engineering, I thought about what FF had said about there being several in the Rockies and most of them were north of Santa Fe. My WWWH fit this broad idea. I took a look at a number of the other WWWH locations – but they failed due to no canyon down, or the lack of other clues lining up.

    I really do not understand the idea of being about to solve WWWH in a vacuum – without any consideration for any other clues or broader concepts (big picture). I suppose “technically” I might have been able to reach my idea for WWWH this way, but given the way people think it simply does not seem workable. FF seems to suggest you can “solve” or “unlock” WWWH in and of itself. I don’t agree since we don’t really know we solved the first clue until we have solved the other 8 and found the treasure chest. If we really can KNOW what WWWH is before moving onto the other clues, that suggests there is either a built in confirmation (built in where?) or an answer. Did FF really supply us with everything we need to KNOW what WWWH is by just the poem, or just the poem and TTOTC, or those plus a good map — without considering any other clues?

    Most of us, I think, are trying to find a WWWH that is at a canyon, and down the canyon is a hoB. SOme, I know, believe WWWH may be as simple as a place named Warm Waters. But you cannot know you are correct without continuing to work on the other clues.

    JMHO

    TH

    • T hunter,

      If you can locate hoB.. why do you need WWWsH?

      Paraphrasing; we have nothing if we don’t have the first clue.

      So my question is; can we actually find hoB [ the correct fenn’s reference to that line in the poem ] without WWWsH?
      Can we simply find the ‘no place for the meek’ reference, and just go there-?- skipping hoB… What about HLnWH {regardless of how we / each of us deciphered a clue}

      I mean if we can actually find any later clue, what’s the point of having to follow the ‘9 clues in consecutive order’ ~ as fenn said, there’s no other way to his knowledge. And not to forget he stated; he followed the clues when he hid the chest…

      • Seeker, I think it’s more the path you take then anything. I don’t think you can skip wwwh, or the canyon to get to the next clue. Think of it as a one way in trail that does not allow cars. Start= wwwh, etc…
        The references of the clues out in the field will coincide with the poem.

        I like the idea of reverse engineering. F said the poem will give an “x”, a spot, also, some clues will be discovered, and in reference to wwwh, you need to find out. Makes perfect sense, but it comes from solving the poem which is not the same, IMO, as solving clue to clue.

        Even solving the poem, IMO, may not yield answers to some of the clues until you get BotG. I mean, we only know of two clues, we don’t even know what a clue is. So how could we, with confidence, solve each clue with the poem? Not likely. But, with confidence, we could solve the poem and get a spot, which we then can derive a start point.

        To answer your question, I guess a helicopter could drop you off right at the spot, foregoing all the clues, but not realistically. Plus, we couldn’t find later clues because we wouldn’t see them. Our path we must walk takes care of all that.

        Reverse engineering follows all the f comments, but if it is with solving clues, I don’t see it. I see solving the poem to get your spot and the path taken to reveal some of the clues un-answerable. (and coordinates help:)

      • Seeker:

        This all will depend upon your solutions for each clue. For example, if my hoB was the home of Molly Brown (which it is not) then I would not need to know WWWH at all. Assuming I was correct about my hoB, that is. There is only one Molly Brown home.

        My hoB is not unique. My solution for this one single clue can be married to a number of locations on a number of maps. Same with my WWWH solution. Not unique. But when I look on maps to find a WWWH within a certain proximity (NFBTFTW) to hoB (and all having a canyon down) I easily rule out many of the other possible locations.

        So I have a location that fits my WWWH and has a hoB down the canyon. And then I look to see if the instruction to “Put in below” makes sense, and if this location has my solution for NPFTM that is nearby Check.

        And so on.

        I do not vary my understanding of what WWWH is, or what hoB is, or what NPFTM is — etc. I have solutions for what these are. At present, I am very confident.

        This all seems obvious to me. You have to marry the clues to the map, says FF. That is what I did. Seems to me most people are still force fitting clues into locations they favor. They find ATFs or historical facts or some other such support that pleases them.

        Because we cannot know for certain whether we have the correct solution, until we go BOTG and find the treasure, it seems to me you want to make sure that you have really solved the poem, that you understand all nine clues and what they mean and how they get you right to the chest. (Unless you can afford to travel to the Rockies whenever you feel like it.) My solve does this.

        I know that is contrary to the present trend that you cannot get past the first two clues without being on the ground and seeing.Or that clues 3-9 are all within 200 feet of hoB. I don’t care about the trendy ideas about the search. Those come and go.

        The clues work together. Seems silly to me to assume you can know with certainty what any one of them is, in isolation. But as you string them together . . . . .

        JMHO

        TH

        • T Hunter;

          Seems like a good approach to me – Good luck with your methodology – JDA

        • T hunter ~ ‘This all seems obvious to me. You have to marry the clues to the map, says FF…’

          I can’t argue your approach. I can debate that fenn didn’t say the above. The comment was, in part; “… marry the clues to “a place” on a map.”
          Logically, one could say that the idea is knowing the “location” of ‘all’ the clues [ where they all are within an area “a place”]… even before attempting to solve them, might be the key point, and no so much each individual clue first.

          Some attempt this by a state, others by a type of WWsH only, others by a later clue that seems to apply to the previous clues… only we seem to found out, there are tens of thousands of location that we can do this.

          If we don’t have the first clue nailed down, we have nothing / stay home / out of the many possibilities for WWsH, comments, tells me we need to have a certainty of ‘where the hunt plays out’ and fenn seems to imply that in his warning comment. That’s how we can find the first correct clue. But even then it doesn’t seem to be a proof positive… something is alluding all… and it seems to be the process of how the clues themselves form / perform their rolls.

          I’ll go out on a limb and say again, I don’t think even fenn ‘knew’ the blaze, beforehand, while writing the poem.
          I think his personal memory=ies /knowledge of the place led him to a spot where he utilized an object there to be the blaze… hence completing the poem. And why he followed is own creation.
          Don’t get me wrong, he knew the spot, but he didn’t have a 10″ sq spot picked out or the blaze, up front. imo.

          Here’s another comment that might relate, paraphrasing; he could have wrote the poem before hiding the chest, but he didn’t.
          Well, he did to just that… right? Wrote the poem over a 15 year span [starting near 1988ish] and hid the chest later [ at age almost 80]. Ya have to ask yourself.. what did he need to actually do on site, after following the clues he created to “complete” the poem?
          I think he need to find a blaze to use and hid the trove, just like he tells us to be wise and find it ourselves [ the blaze ]

          We’re not looking for a buried / hidden chest that no one can stumble upon… we’re looking for ‘the blaze’ to reveal where it is. I think fenn did the same.
          LOL it would be a good question to ask;
          Did you know of and where, the poem’s blaze reference, before you followed the clues when you hid the chest?

          • Seeker,

            Thanks for correcting the FF quote. It is important to get those right and I was a little lazy.

            I generally agree with you that he needed to hide the chest before he finished the poem because to lead someone to the chest he had to scout out the final area in detail – perhaps to select a blaze, or to leave a blaze (if you subscribe to the mark on a tree or rock idea), or to do something else .

            I think the reason this is so hard to solve is that we do not know whether or not we are using the right method when building our solve. Then add to that the multitude of “hints” contained in TTOTC, other books, interviews etc etc. Then add searchers own rabbit holes. Then add all the blogs and vlogs and all that noise.

            My method may be dead wrong. But at least I have a code.

            TH

    • I believe that we can determine WWWH from the first stanza. I have come up with two locations in two different states based on the first stanza, and may search both this year. Using later clues to confirm WWWH? I don’t know about that, perhaps. I am not ruling out that some later clues need to be found via BOTG only though either.

      “Go to the first clue, and then the clues are consecutive after that.” Does this mean we need to physically go to the first clue to solve this thing? Difficult but not impossible.

      • Aaron, doesn’t it seems odd to you that recently Forrest has stated Six Questions with Forrest Fenn and The Thrill of the Chase Treasure Hunt: Double Charmed

        BY JENNY KILE · FEBRUARY 4, 2018

        “It helps to know something about Rocky Mountain geography when making plans to search for my treasure. Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve. Google Earth cannot help with the last clue.”

        Jenny said, “Are you aware of any more progress made past the first two clues? Have searchers homed into other clues or words in the poem? Have searchers been closer than 200 feet to the treasure?”

        “I am rarely told exactly where people are searching so I don’t know if they are getting closer or not. My gut feeling is that someone will find it this summer.f”

        This could line up with the following 2 video of https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=tQcLGRdSI38 at 1:15 he states somebody is What?

        https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=O9czRin3Tas
        more than 2 but not in the what…..ORDER, why it rhyms with that, Order…IMO

        TT

        • Now where or what does your imagination tell you when read this:

          As I have gone alone in there

          And with my treasures bold,

          I can keep my secret where,

          And hint of riches new and old.

          This might be bigger than WWWH if you were in a tight focus with the Order of Things to follow, Geographically speaking. IMO

          TT

          • Makes me think of bells, bighorn, and 265. Leads to at of year 12016, asterisk, page 15 and few in tight focus with that.

  21. Ramblings about Brown. I have no idea what any of this means. It’s just all been thrown into the mixing pot (pressure cooker?) that is my mind.

    1. Red Black Green makes brown which is really dark orange. It only appears brown in context (as I have posted before). It’s actually Red “no Blue” Green. It can appear as yellow in the proper context (the mind can strange things with colors). There has to be something about Red Black Green and tea (unless it really is 205)

    2. Yellow and purple paint mix to make brown (different than combining light). In tea with Olga we have her resting in the blooming chamisa and mountain laurel, which are yellow and (sometimes) purple. He mentions the yellow and purple flowers (or quotes containing references) in other places.

    3. Brown is capitalized. We capitalize specific things. Like the Brown Crayon. Like home of the Brave (which refer to specific brave). So, what is a specific brown that can be found on a good map? (think tribal)

    Again, I don’t know what any of it means. Tonight I’ll re-read the book and take notes. So many hints, so little information.

    WWWH and HOB are likely metaphorical and have nothing to do with water or colors and all the above is a waste of time.

    My wife insists the first clues are “suggestive” (well, TFTW doesn’t fit that solve) but I don’t know what that has to do with anything other than getting a chuckle.

    mBG

  22. Fly in the ointment: Following, I followed and that exact term defined, the or a path to the TC Question posted 6/20/2014:

    I have a question for Mr. Fenn:

    When you hid your treasures, did you take the same path that is described in the poem, or were you able to skip some of the steps because of your familiarity with the area?

    Thank you Curtis

    The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f

    If I said I followed Admiral Byrd to a place that had never been visited by man, but did not take the same route, did I follow or just arrive at Antarctica?

    Thoughts?

    TT

    • I would think your route would have to be different. I mean what are the chances of following an exact route especially on the sea with winds and all working on a sailing ship. I smoke cigars once in a while and often see how the wind blows the smoke all over the place.

    • Personally I would like to follow Fenn’s answer exactly as he said it. IMO you cannot go directly to the canyon down if you don’t start at WWWH. You cannot directly go to the home of Brown. You cannot directly go to the blaze unless you follow the creek not for the meek. You cannot directly go to the TC, never. If you want to get to the TC you have to start from WWWH, through canyon down, by putting in below the home of Brown, following the creek not for the meek, past the end which is drawing nigh, and the blaze and then to the TC (you have to be brave at the same time according to the poem), EVERY TIME. I mean it, you have to physically follow the same path every time if you want to get to Fenn’s hiding place and claim the TC, IMHO.
      — MK

      • Yes sir,
        I think it’s best to follow Fenn’s advice and start at WWWH and go from there.
        I’m not sure about “following the creek not for the meek” though.

        • Hi Jake,
          Sorry, I’m refering “From there it’s no place for the meek,” and I’m taking this place to be the same creek as “no paddle creek.”
          — MK

      • MK you say, “following the creek not for the meek, past the end which is drawing nigh, and the blaze and then to the TC (you have to be brave at the same time according to the poem), EVERY TIME.”

        But what if we are no longer searching for the TC but have located it, found the treasure, and are now looking for something else? – which we were not originally looking for, nor expecting, but were offered. Doesn’t it seem odd that we must continue searching? IMO

        • Joe;

          1) The search begins with stanza #2 right?

          2) You say the search ends at the end of Stanza #4

          3) Only three stanza’s out of 6 used.

          4) Why would Forrest have written Stanza’s #5 and #6 if you find the treasure at the end of Stanza #4???

          This just makes no sense to me.

          I see stanza #1 as a prelude, and you have to use the remaining 5 stanza’s before you find indulgence and get title to the gold. JMO – JDA

          • I actually think it makes perfect sense to end at stanza 4.

            Stanzas 2-4 give landmarks and vectors. These stanzas may give you all the clues you need to get you to the exact location of the chest; however, you may not see it. Hints like ‘cold’ and ‘wood’ might actually do nothing to get to to the physical location of the chest, but may assist in unhiding it. ff has said it’s unlikely that someone get within 12 feet and not find it, but then again, he’s also said that someone that gets that far will have gotten there with confidence. It’s unlikely they’d move with confidence, get to the spot, and not turn over a log and see what’s there.

            -L

          • elpapa;

            I am not sure that I understand your logic. A clue gets you closer to the treasure, and a hint can help with the clues – Am I right? You are saying that your last clue is in Stanza #4 – Just take the chest and go in peace… and yet you say that cold and wood from stanza #6 get you closer (closer than 12′) to the chest – but isn’t that the function of a clue – getting you closer to Indulgence? A hint only helps with the clue, but you are saying that this “hint” gets you closer, NOT helping with clue #9 – I am confused – JDA

        • Hi Joe,
          There is nothing else. You’ve already found the TC. What else are you looking for, I may ask?
          — MK

    • Trick question TT. If you followed him,, you were just behind him. So you took the same path. If you are saying you just headed north following his route, you thought, then you really didn’t follow but arrived at Antarctica. You didn’t use the exact route , so you didn’t understand his. Now, to find a 10x10x4 spot that he was at in Antarctica, you might not be where you need to be, because you didn’t fully understand his path. The real start point would be Antarctica, anybody could arrive there, just not able to figure out the next steps of the old captain. Like Christmas Columbus finding America a, he just found land.

    • TT , that it could correctly be said that you followed ,if the only pathway to Antarctica was a one person tunnel?

    • TT,

      Your question is too broad to consider.
      We are told we need to have a specific starting point… right?
      This seems to be the critical criteria needed.

      So, for example, if NY is where we start and we need to take I-95 south and need to end up in FL… do I need to do that if I was coming from CA? I mean, I would have followed the directions from NY, but took a different route to get to the ending location [say I-40 E to meet I-95 S].
      IN any scenario we can think of, coming from any direction.. there are clues physically skipped if we don’t physically start were we are told to. This is a big no no from what we have been told…”The clues should be followed in order Curtis. There is no other way to my knowlege.f”
      And fenn stating; he followed the clues when he hid the chest.

      The question that has itch my britches is; how is “followed” and “lead” to be reprieved?
      A physical position at each physical location a clue represents, or a visual sighting of those places from a single spot.
      We are told; if we can’t find the chest to go back to clue 1 [WWWsH] and we need that clue or we have nothing.
      Well, why would we have to IF we know we have the [ for example ] the correct hoB or the correct process to get to that point?
      Which raises the question; what is the correct process we need to take in this endeavor.. stomp out clue references, or observe from the place the first clue brings us to?

      I can get to Antarctica by any route from anywhere… but do I need to be there-?- or does the starting point give me all that is needed.
      Eliot Quote: We shall not cease from exploration, and the end of all our exploring will be to arrive where we started and know the place for the first time. { a subtle hint in my mind }.
      Yep, we also have the comment; paraphrasing, if you knew what hoB is, you’d go right to the chest. Well, can we really know what hoB is if we don’t have the first clue nailed down?

      Side note; It would not surprise me that some searchers possibly located / indicated hoB, NPFTM, HLnWH… but never did it the way fenn *may have* intended this all to unfold.
      I think many are target fixed [clue’s placements fixated] and might be skipping, misunderstanding [ call it what you will ] the instructions given.

      • Seeker, humor Mr Terrific here, who is in another camp, or frame of reference for this Puzzle, expressed as a Riddle, WWWH is the metaphor for the place in that other dimension, the one behind the geographical ref or In the truest sense the de·no·ta·tion which is IMO ff clever use of tears, memories and a place in time that was important to him.

        I think the treasure may be found this summer probably in late June, it will require understand two paths, one is geo. in nature and one is retro in nature.

        TT

  23. I believe –
    that it isn’t where you take off from nor where you land, but what you do when you get there.

    Just IMO.

    • Yes, precisely www. You and I are on the same page again. That is why I believe finding HOB may require BOTG. In my Army ROTC days we always focused on “actions on the objective.” I think they call it “actions on contact” now but… The reality is because of that training I always speak of and focus on actions at the objective. IMO

  24. Well, next week I’ll go to my third BOTG and as usually in my search “I know” what is the hoB (if I don’t know I don’t have my BOTG).
    I think all searchers want to know what is hoB and start to think about BOTG only when they solved this very hard clue. I’m not sure that I really solved ff hoB riddle but when I have tested the solution on my son (13 years old i.e. still a kid) he did it very fast – Forrest said that kids will solve it easy.
    I hope that he was right about it.

    • Many kids (of various ages) are being brainwashed into a state of almost total confusion. It would be a rare teenager who is capable of solving correctly for hoB. Good luck to you and your son, and please don’t ignore the nouns in the poem . . . (oops, I hope I haven’t said too much). As always, IMO.

      • Hi Tall Andrew,
        thanks for your wise advice!
        Unfortunately you are right about modern teenagers and their addiction to “virtual adventures”. If TC not found in next 20 years we will see significant decay in searcher’s number. Instead of real BOTG next generation will send long-range drones equipped with ground-penetrating radar 🙂 Recently Forrest said that such drones will help to find TC.

  25. Put in below the home of Brown.
    This circumstantial evidence may only be understood by those that think the pibthoB is on the Madison as the 3rd clue and the 1st 2 clues are up the Firehole and not the Gibbon.

    Brown
    Bro w n
    Bro – Three Bro thers Mountains
    3 letters – Bro – third clue
    4th letter in BroWn = W = West (towards West Yellowstone 4th clue hint.)
    5th letter in BrowN = N = North (head north up NIGH 5th clue hint)

    Put in The Madison River below Three Brothers Mountains and let the river take you down stream West till you get to the border of YNP and West Yellowstone, this is no place for the meek.
    1K ft away is North Intrastate Gallatin Highway = nigh.

    Does this make sense?

    • Kinda Jake, but why couldn’t lil Indi make it to Brothers Mountains? Something at the third clue makes it so a child cannot go on alone. Unless you interpret differently then all sounds okay to me. Just what other capitalized word are you going to use next to get clues 6-9?

      • I don’t give little indy any credence because Jenny conjured her up in her mind, therefore whatever answer Fenn gives is an answer to a hypothetical. Ask a stupid question, get a stupid answer.

        Throw the child comment out the window as well.

        As far as the 6th goes, just take the 1st letter of the 11th line and the last letter of that line before the word “creek”.
        You get “T” and “r” then the word creek. Fill in the space between the letters of the name of a creek that is between West Yellowstone and Bozeman or the 4 corners area. Lots of creeks but which one begins with a “T” and ends in “r” ? pretty easy to figure out – up your creek –

        I may disclose 7, 8 and 9 which is a doozy but not until I go there.
        If you email me, I will tell you.

        • I’m actually with you on the lil indi thing. She’s a little older now, makes no difference.
          Yes, I can see your possibles possible. Using the poem to solve for clues, why not. The write up would be different then the ol’ guess a wwwh and give the History lesson on why.
          Seeker might think you are force fitting the 6th clue to fit though, but, sometimes coincidences pan out. Especially if there are enough of them. When you headed out Jake? I’ll shoot you an email, need to do a little work first.

          • There are 3 movements in drawing a B.
            Straight line up or down – l
            Two arcs with the openings pointing left on top of eachother meeting the line top to bottom -3

            If you take the 1st 3 letters of the 1st 3 words in this line and overlay them: Put in below the home of Brown.
            You get a “B” P I b

            There are 3 words before “the” and 3 words after.
            There are 24 letters in this line and when divided by 3 = 8. This is the 8th line in the poem.

            After Brown is the 3rd period in the poem.
            There are only 3 capped B’s in the poem and Brown is one of them.

            This is how you stretch a tangent.

          • Jake,

            The reason little Indy can’t get by clue three hoB is because it’s not on a map, period. This place is not listed as hoB, but it is. To understand how it is you need to understand the place it’s at. This is what I have come to find.

            By the way did you pi_s Seeker off? I see you called him out on not having a search area.

            He had asked me a question and I replied today but haven’t seen him. Ok just messing with ya. I know you say what you think and that’s ok.

            You have caught me off guard a time or to but I’ve been at this to long to care what others think. I know what I know and believe what I believe and like who I like. Guess you’re one I like but don’t let go to your head, hell I like most people I meet until they really pis_ me off.LOL

            Good luck Jake.

            Bur

          • If I were to buy into the little indy statement just for argument sake, I would say you are right that PIBTHOB is the 3rd clue and is not *labeled* on any map as “Brown”.
            Do you agree with the extra detail I added?

            It’s funny how Fenn has the 1st 2 clues statement parallel the little indy statement. Makes you wonder how easy it is to figure the 1st 2 clues.

            Seeker is fine and won’t be the last time I pee someone off. Yes, I say mostly what I think and I think most people should be that way. I think the truth is the only way and unfortunately it hurts but I would rather have honest feedback than the phony ones any day. At least you know where that person is coming from 🙂

            I respect and like a person more for their honesty even if it’s at my expense as opposed to a phony.

            I like and respect you too Bur and others that speak their mind. I try not to take anything personal here seeing it’s all about the Chase and really doesn’t represent their lives and how they really are as a whole human sapien.

          • I myself think there is 2 HOB’S in the poem. The first
            one is irrelevant . Could be the big tree or something
            just it was Perfect for the poem. Why can’t you just go
            from the canyon to the put in the boats. clue 3 to me.
            At clue 6 it starts complication. with its introduction.
            Probably the reason it is a capital B. The rest is an
            odd arrangement to me. I think I understand the reason
            for it all. Or I just don’t . I still have questions if this is
            for real or not. I thought a first BOTG in September
            For me way cool vacation just to have an adventure.
            Decided not too. Not trying to cause trouble on the
            blog by posting again. I missed what happened.
            Plan on waiting a few more years and see what happens. Seems like every where has been thought of
            and most searched. I guess they needed to know they
            had solved it first rather than guessing about possibilities
            and unable to locate it.
            Any ways I think the HOB is really irrelevant. if he told
            you it would not help but if he told you the other one
            you may be able to work things out after months of
            trying to understand why.
            something different for the blog. Or maybe not after
            9 years. Just wanted to try and post again.
            Good Luck..

          • Jake, I can stretch tangents too.

            In 6 (or 1/4) of the lines in the poem the 9th letter is T.
            In three of those lines the letter before it is I.
            The 9th letter of the alphabet is I.
            Together I and T make up would could be the most important word in the poem.

          • Okay Jake, 24 letters in that line, “H” being the middle, or the 12th letter. “H” is the 8th letter of the alphabet. The next letter in the line is “E”. “E” is the 5th letter of the alphabet, 8+5=13, which “E” is the 13th letter of this line. Spells “HE”.
            “HE” put in below the home of Brown.
            It’s not us who need to “put in”, it was f. “HE” is observing from the canyon on what “HE” did, not telling us what we need to do, but just stating a fact.
            There are 24 letters in this line. 24th letter is “X” in the alphabet. Home of Brown is where “X” is. The chest. Since this is the 8th line of poem, this then cannot be a clue this early in the poem. (lol, worked out pretty good, first try).:)

          • I see you’re still in extended mod.
            24 letters. What number is between 2 and 4?
            3 as in the third missing clue that many have not gotten.

            I’ll bet the house this is the 3rd clue.

          • Put in below – 3 words
            home of Brown – 3 words
            “the” (3 letter word) seems unnecessary.

      • Hi JimB;

        Were you making a funny, and I missed it – Muddy water – Brown???
        Sorry I missed it at first – JDA

        • A little funny and a little jab at people not taking Fenn’s advice to simplify.

          • Simplify, Yes.
            I’ve had my PIBTHOB spot for 2+ years now and was just fooling around with some coincidences the other day to see if there is some sort of confirmation in where I think that spot is correct.

            What I have found out above is way after the fact of finding that spot and in no way led me to choose this spot seeing it was there years ago in my solve(s).

            My solve(s) are very simple and many have said too simple.

            I haven’t seen your HOB idea here JimB…..
            Clear the waters!

          • IMO, My HOB is a rustry brown structure (not a building) that has been around for over 100 years, and has had money earmarked for the preservation of it. There are also two other things next to it that could easily be considered a HoB, and still lead to the same location. The unpopular home of brown trout. The big rusty thing. and a cow camp home of brown (fawn) colored cow?

            All in an area that was discussed in the book, with some subtle and off the wall hints from the book confirming NPUYC. Of course I hope I am not having confirmation bias. I recognized my HoB after I remembered a picture of an extremely similar structure from his once upon a while book, in a story that he covered in two books.

            BOTG in June, and I will be flying my plane there

          • Thanks for sharing that JimB.
            I hope you came to that spot after solving the 1st 2 clues.
            I’m not particularly crazy about it being a structure unless it’s natural.

            Confirmation bias? I think most here had that at one time or another.

          • Yes, definitely after my first two clues were “solved.” I wasn’t either on the “structure” but when rereading The Totem Cafe Caper, and Looking for Lewis and Clark, I by happenstance found a “Good Map” that has the title of something Fenn directly stated in his book. On that map, is my HoB, NPFTM, NPUYC (with a hint in Totem Cafe Caper). That NPUYC / HLWH describes something that didnt exist when he was a kid- “The clues did not exist when I was a kid but most of the places the clues refer to did. I think they might still exist in 100 years”

            These next clues that I could tie to subtleties in the book lead me to believe this is the correct HoB. What I like most about these clues I Tie to the book… I wasn’t looking for them. I was looking for things to confirm my HoB

          • JimB;

            From the “Cheat Sheet” – There is this: “I said on the Today show that the treasure is not associated with any structure. Some people say I have a desire to mislead. That is not true. There are no notes to be found or safety deposit boxes to be searched. The clues can lead you to the treasure, and it will be there waiting when you arrive.”

            Regarding a structure, there is this:

            1)The ‘home’ of Brown might not relate to any structure

            In Cynthia Meachum’s book is the quote of her talking to Forrest:

            “When I discussed the CCC cabin as being the home of Brown, he immediately said, “don’t you remember, I said it can’t be associated with any structure.””

            This statement seems to confirm the ‘home’ is not a kind of structure to be looking for.

            Although the clue, “No need to dig up the old outhouses, the treasure is not associated with any structure”, was given on March 27th (2013) on the Today Show, it wasn’t clear all that Forrest was referring to. (https://www.today.com/video/new-clue…nt-23580739626)

            Cynthia’s statement seems to suggest Forrest was referring to all 9 clues in the poem (or at least the hoB). This can also be supported by a question/answer posted on MW:

            “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits? Thanks, d.”

            “Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information.f .”

            You should take note that Forrest says “ANY” structure – Just sayin JDA

          • JDA,
            I hadn’t seen that quote about no structure at all.

            I had always relied on “Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information.f .”

            Although like I told Jake the area has 3 things I could consider HoB, and only one is a structure.

          • Jim B

            Remember, Cynthias statement is second-hand, although many (including me) think that Cynthia is a very reliable source – JDA

          • I think your using the right materials and in a good way.
            TTOTC hints to help with the clues in the poem and a good map and I noticed you didn’t add any BS about SB’s which I think could muddy the waters further.

            I like Looking For Lewis And Clark, Flywater and In Love With Yellowstone as my hints seeing they give you a vast area and no pinpoint location of the treasure or any particular clue although there may be clues in these areas.

            Getting the first 2 clues before PIBTHOB is also paramount instead of just looking for HOB first then reverse engineering.

            I like the Gallatin National Forrest map as my good map.

            It’s nice to find something different that may be more relevant than what you were looking for. I think a tiny bit of luck (not much) may help in solving this.

          • Jake: ” I like the Gallatin National Forrest map as my good map.”

            My little mystery solved. I always wondered how you found benchmark EP30 since it doesn’t appear in any database and is not on the USGS maps. Well, turns out it IS on the Gallatin National Forest Map.

            So, when the treasure is found and HOB is the fourth clue, you lose your house and I can watch you eat your hat. 🙂

        • Jake-
          Agreed on SB’s and not looking for HoB first I think a generic HoB corn be made specific if you know the direction of travel and a an approximate distance. It’s interesting to read the book and see where he talks about things being near/not far when they are farther away than what the consensus on TFTW is. Regardless, I like this as my HoB and my NPUYC HLWH because you would pretty much have to follow the clues to the treasure IMIO I’d you started in West Yellowstone. There is no other way (unless you count a helicopter or bushwhacking)

  26. Has anyone considered Australia/New Zealand as the “home of Brown?”
    Put in below could be the “down under.”
    Just a thot……

      • “too far to walk” could pair up with “Walk About.”
        Anything is possible……

        • wwwamericana,

          I believe you are getting away a little to far from the Rockies north of Santa Fe.

          But if you feel like it’s a track to take, go for it. Just sayin.

          Good luck,
          Bur

        • 180 degrees – could be the “Outback”
          I don’t believe he says the clues are confined to the Rockies – only the treasure. So….why not look at the Big Picture???

          • You don’t seem to have any idea what the BIG picture really is, do you?
            — MK

          • wwwamericana – I did a 180°, also, when I read about Admiral Byrd’s Hollow Earth Theory and Lewis Carroll’s Gravity Elevator. And Forrest’s story about the mirror. And Forrest’s comment about a searcher using math to find the hidey spot, and digging down through Hebgen Lake to China.

            How deep is a hole, Forrest?

            Why I put the Chinese Yuan symbol across the bottom of a similar topic post: ¥.

            I am the Queen of going off on tangents, Jake, as was my namesake, Elizabeth I, but Charles I funded the circumnavigation of the Earth by Ferdinand Magellan, a Portuguese ‘tan gent’, who was the ‘lead dog’ for the discovery of many cultures of Brown people:
            https://mapofthemonth.com/site/wp-content/uploads/2013/08/world-explorers.jpg

            He sailed right through my -111,-44 degrees mirror coordinates for my hidey spot. And so did Scott, on one of his Antarctic expeditions.

            If you go off on a tangent to a circle, where to you eventually end up?

    • Yes, I have figured out what THE big picture Fenn is refering to long time ago.
      — MK

  27. I am still going with Picaris Pueblo.
    It is the only place with rainbows using the same colors as Olga’s tea.
    THAT is the end of Fenn’s Rainbow.

    On the other hand, I went up to Tea Kettle Rock yesterday.
    It was beautiful. The road was good for a compact car to travel on.
    The funny thing is that there was a nice crawl space beneath it.
    If it wasn’t next to the road it would have made a good hiding place for the chest.
    https://i.pinimg.com/474x/14/e6/75/14e6754aaec56e163431439c8e9f0ff1–travel-ideas-rocks.jpg

    • Michael,
      What a cool rock, thanks. I’m going to have to head out there to check it out next time I’m on the back road from Cuba.

    • I figured that driving up to Cuba was the fastest route. But driving down 126 from NM4 is more fun.
      From the McDonald’s in Cuba it is about 23 miles up to Tea Kettle Rock. From there you can go down to the Rio Puerco Gorge and marvel at all of the water falls. I Iinked it to my name above.

      • OT, but Michael – did you drive 126 from NM4 north/west to Cuba (or at least to FR 103, which I presume is what you took up to Tea Kettle)? When I drove 126 from Cuba heading east/south to NM4 two or three years ago, the packed dirt surface beyond Rio las Vacas Campground was deeply rutted and rather difficult to navigate in spots. Have they leveled those out? Thanks for any update.

        • 126 from 7 springs lake is hard pack dirt. It can get sandy in a couple of areas. Just be sure to travel in summer when it is dry.
          Always have a shovel when traveling in the mountains. I prefer to use a hydraulic floor jack when changing a tire.
          Over the years I have lost mufflers, oil pans and tires when going too fast on rutted roads. I have learned to drive them with caution, or avoid them.
          Anyway…126 is good, and most of 103 is good. I haven’t gone up from Coyote in years, so I can’t verify that route.

    • Beautiful country. But I hear that Forrest had to go all the way to Wyoming or Montana to find a special place since NM is just a barren wasteland. Nothing to see here folks, move along. 🙂

      • JW;

        Have you ever been to New Mexico? I would say “NO” – from your comment. New Mexico has some absolutely beautiful country.

        I do believe that the treasure chest (Indulgence) is in Wyoming, but I also believe that where it is (in Wyoming) might remind Forrest of some of the beauty to be found in New Mexico. JMHO – JDA

        • JDA,
          Unfortunately the emoji I put at the end only displayed as a square. It would have made my attempt at sarcasm a bit clearer. I’ve now had a few conversations on this blog with Michael about some of our favorite places in NM, and I really appreciate the pictures he posts from his travels in the area (click his links, it’s worth it). My tongue in cheek comment at the end of our conversation was a lame attempt to gently mock those who think that Forrest would have had to travel far to find a special place.

        • JW;

          Sorry I missed the emoji – and the tongue-in-cheek remark. I will try to pay better attention in the future. NM IS beautiful – JDA

          • It sure is! But I have to confess I thought the same thing, that it was a Barren Wasteland before I moved here. Now that I’ve explored much more of it, it’s absolutely stunning!

    • Thanks for sharing, Michael! I’ll definitely have to check out that route on a future road trip!

  28. Just a thought on home of Brown.
    The Old and Middle English name for Elk is El. El means brown. FF said he hid the TC in summer. The calving season for elk is in the summer. Many calving areas are at higher elevations, and off limits to humans in the summer during calving, so you could put in below the home of brown.

    • that is an interesting theory. Elk have a wide range in the rocky mountains. Based upon the most recent surveys, the New Mexico Department of Game and Fish estimate that there are approximately 70,000 elk in the state. Elk typically occupy the mountainous regions of New Mexico. Primary elk habitats include the north-central portion of the state along the Sangre de Cristo and Jemez Mountain ranges, the southwest region, and the southcentral portion of the State along the Sacramento Mountains. I know people that go into the mountains specifically to pick up antlers to make decorations with them. It would be tough to pin point a single place that would be the home of elk. But I will google it to find a place name.

    • That’s interesting. Thanks for the message. What do you think about the
      capital B in Brown?

  29. Thats interesting… so, if you are ‘taking it in the canyon down”… heading toward the canyon floor… maybe turnoff onto a ledge trail above the floor but below the El. Too simple?

    • Good luck with the understanding. Please emphasize safety in the mountains.

  30. Hello fellow searchers. My two cents.

    I was reading here as my HoB is my one worry spot in my solve. After reading some of your posts I am not quite so bothered by it now. Let me explain how I came upon it.

    I remember something I read in which FF had stated that it would take “boots on the ground” and a “knowledge of the area” to solve the clues as a map couldn’t solve them all.

    When I went to my WWWH and then took into the canyon down I stopped and read every little historical sign they had posted on the road. One gave me the story of an event that had happened that was a possible Brown. A little research and I believed it a good fit. What is bothersome is there is no exact place more of a line between two points where this event occurred somewhere.

    Now like I said I have solves for the rest. So I like the idea that HoB isn’t an exact spot. As far as my Put In, with HoB as a reference area per se No Place for the Meek gives me the solve for the Put In.

    Just my opinion.

    • I think you should find some citations for “I remember something I read in which FF had stated that it would take “boots on the ground” and a “knowledge of the area” to solve the clues as a map couldn’t solve them all.”

    • You said something that caught my attention…..
      Thanks for the post.

  31. I wish to violate one of Dal’s rules, just a little, but it might make a few people think about staying inside the box, not a cardboard box but a geographical box.

    This Brown Question seems to be the biggest crap shoot of the entire chase, now since Fenn has alluded that no one has got it right IMO and does not disclose it in his books etc, that leads me to think it is a co ordinate term, so bear with me here: the Longitude and Latitude of Too Far too Walk map has 4 boundaries or borders, the big picture, they are on the east, 104.0410 degrees, on the west 116.050 degrees in the south boundary 35.7500 degrees and in the north 49.0000 degrees at the Canada Border.

    It could be possible that below means south of say a place like Browns Canyon or Browns Mountain or many other B places, but if one has solved the co ordinate the proper WWWH latitude which could be an east to west dimension, a tangent line drawn to intersect a general solve, if you will that is near the blaze, you get the idea, its hard to see but possible.

    So as we all do anyway, lets take a guess for our location for WWWH then conclude that since the term Put in below was used, Forrest means down, just as canyon down means below, but add to that idea HOB is below and is down as in south ..right, therefore WWWH is or could be an east west tangent co ordinate, HOB a north south co ordinate.

    That stares us in the face because of this comment IMO from ff “It seems logical to me that a deep thinking treasure searcher could use logic to determine an important clue to the location of the treasure. Is someone doing that now and I don’t know it? It’s not what they say on the blogs that may be significant, it’s what they whisper. f”

    Logic, is the science of deduction, dialectics, expressed in geography and navigation by degrees of latitude and longitude, ultimately this location will it is determined by an position on a map of the Rockies, to the 4th digit.

    Some where in the construct of the poem there exists all the elements for the correct co ordinates and those numbers will be between 104.0400 degrees east, 116.50 degrees west and 37.7500 degrees south and 49 degrees north, that is not an opinion it is a fact.

    TT

    • That is assuming a lot there TT. I do agree with your evaluation of coordinates, but that is a huge area. I also don’t think “guessing” is involved to get wwwh. Here’s a thought. Do you think a detective would have every clue to find a killer? Maybe some, but not all. But could still find a killer. So, do you think you need every clue to find the chest?
      F said we will follow all the clues, that doesn’t mean we will solve every possible clue, right? Especially if the answer to some of the clues is not furnished by f, considering he is the only one that knows.
      The only important clue is the last, that’s not saying that the clues are not important, just that there will be no choice in your path you take and finding clues. We could figure clues out BotG, or at least some of them, they would be obvious. The main point being, with hoB so early in the chase, and if knowing hoB you would go right to the chest, then why not just stop there? If we could go right to the chest, then what do we need all the other clues for? Just the last, right? That alone tells me that hoB is not a clue. It’s more an observation of f seeing where the chest is.
      If you have the right spot, can find out, and find wwwh, and start at wwwh, the path you take will cover all clues. Important or not.
      It’s more likely that if you have found coordinates, then they would be for a spot towards the end. 7th, 8th clue area. So much could still go wrong from just the first clue, as we already know. If, and I think there is, there are coordinates put in the poem in a subtle way, then they wouldn’t be for the start but more towards the end. Not enough room in the poem to have all these coordinates all over the place, but that is my opinion.
      One definition to whisper as a “noun”, (best not to exclude any nouns), is “hint”. Could he be saying that it’s the hints that are the “tell all”? Maybe.
      With our path set in stone, and if it is correct, do we really need to care about hoB, the blaze, the third clue, how far we are walking, etc…? The path will cover all that, it’s the last clue, as he has said, that will find the chest. So, Back to coordinates, I would think that those will get you to clue 8. All, IMO.

      • I wonder if it would be possible to find the chest without even figuring out hoB and some of the other clues. If someone were in the right general area and just happened to find the blaze could they then find the chest?

          • Searchers have been within 200 feet without figuring out hoB. That means they were probably in the right general area. Is it possible that someone could stumble across the “blaze” and not recognize it as such without having solved the other clues.

          • If the blaze is not visible from 200 feet then perhaps the other clues are needed to get the searcher to travel that 200 feet. Otherwise they just wonder around, possibly looking for HoB.

          • MM;

            I think that it is possible for someone to see the blaze, and not recognize it. Let’s say, for example, that your blaze is a “Big Rock”. You may have seen this “Big Rock” a hundred times, and not recognized it as the blaze, when in fact it could be the blaze.

            I am postulating that it is not the “Big Rock” that is the blaze, but rather its shadow.

            Note that the cover of tftw shows the shadow of a man, and not the man himself, or even of the man AND his shadow. Is Forrest telling us that it is the SHADOW of the man that is most important? More important than the man himself. I think so – JMO – JDA

        • Hi MM;

          I think that Forrest said that you need to follow the clues in consecutive order for a reason. I have been in my area for 42 months (Search only during summer) Having the blaze alone, for me is not enough. JDA

          • JDA, your idea that that the blaze is a shadow of some big rock is very interesting. It remember me one very old western “Mackenna’s Gold” (1969). Forrest could catch the idea for “shadow blaze” from this moment of movie:
            “When the first beam of sunlight shines down, it sets off an optical reaction that startles the horses. Then the shadow of the pinnacle of “Shaking Rock” starts to move. Watching this, MacKenna for the first time believes in the legend. The shadow eventually ends at a hidden passageway cutting into a mountainside. They ride through it and emerge on the other side.”
            Well, if your idea of “shadow blaze” is correct we will need to know exact time when the shadow ends at TC location. This location pointed by the shadow end will also depends on seasons.
            JDA, recently you cited Forrest:
            “The blaze is a physical thing. It’s not theoretical. Boy did I give you a big clue (Forrest chuckles after making the statement). That’s not a clue. It doesn’t take a scientist to figure out a blaze is something you can look at … A horse has a blaze on its forehead here… ah, ah, there are rocks that have a white face that could be a blaze… ” f
            Do you think that a shadow is a physical thing? Of course, you can look at shadow but it’s continuously moving and can disappear any time because of clouds.

          • Hi Andy;

            I just looked up the word “Physical” – Here is some of what I got:
            relating to things perceived through the senses as opposed to the mind; tangible or concrete.
            “pleasant physical environments”
            synonyms: material, substantial, solid, concrete, TANGIBLE, palpable, VISIBLE, real,ACTUAL
            “everything physical in the universe”

            I put the important words in CAPS – these words seem to say that a shadow is a physical “something” it is Tangible, can be seen, and is an actual “thing”

            So, Yes, I think that it works – JMO – JDA

        • MM, we already discussed this many times here and main conclusion was that hoB is most important clue in poem. If you don’t know what is the hoB in poem it’s useless to start BOTG (IMO).
          Clues after hoB are also important but you there are just coded local road map i.e. Forrest coded direction to hide spot and obstacles/barriers between parking lot start and final destination.
          Blaze is a point where searcher must stop and look around for TC. Most likely you can’t find TC visually – as JDA suggested TC is “sepulchered” (other word for buried?). Thus, to find TC you need to do something like “turn rotten logs over to see what’s under them”.

          • Thanks Andy. I agree with JDA that the chest may be “sepulchered”. HoB is an important clue but I don’t think it’s the most important (or second most important since WWWH is the most important).

        • MM, very possible. I don’t think hoB is even a clue, so yes, possible to not know hoB and still find the chest. It may even be possible to not identify the blaze correctly and still find the chest, IMO. Especially if “marvel gaze” is actually a noun/thing. Since the blaze is a “way point”, it would figure that there are multiple ways of finding it. Meaning BotG, coordinates, or identifying marvel gaze, since you could look up from whatever marvel gaze is and find the blaze.
          If the poem solved gives the “x” on a map. And, the path I take to that “x” has 8 clues, then to me it is just getting to that spot that is important. I may or may not see all the clues or identify them, but I can still find the chest as long as my solve for the 9th clue is correct. The start point is then obvious, wwwh, but the spot is my destination. My path may lead to going south in a canyon, and consist of a long walk, and have some kind of border/barrier to cross, doesn’t matter. What matters is that “X” on my map I need to get to. If f didn’t give the answer to some clues, meaning there is no solve for them, then they would logically be observation clues, requiring BotG. All these scenarios are possible, so hoB, lol, just not that important as people may think. IMO of course.

        • According to my solve, it is. There are several steps and/or things in the poem that can be skipped. There are some things in the latter part of it that can be figured out if you get the first few things right. You don’t really even need the nine clues, but the starting and final spot will be much harder to figure out without them. And the Home of Brown is one of the things that can be skipped. I know everyone makes such a big deal about it, but according to my solve it’s the least important thing to figure out.

          • Although I have agreed in the past about skipping this clue, I think I used the wrong word. hoB may be less important than the – put in – place.
            hoB may never be known even if the person finds the chest.

            I think hoB is only known by Fenn but the – put in – place is known by some.

          • My *opinion* lies somewhere between Jake’s and Jojo’s. I believe home of Brown is determinable with reasonable certainty (only after solving WWWH and NF, BTFTW), but that’s not what’s important — the “put in below” is the critical part.

          • It seems logical to me:
            If we are walking waterways, rivers, streams etc, then we are already at -water level- and everything thing else around us is above us including hoB.

            Down a canyon – hoB is above

            Chances are, we are at the lowest point until we keep following the waterway.

            If it’s about a waterway…..

  32. Being a relative newcomer, can someone explain why Joe Brown Putin/Creek is not considered a good home of Brown? Just too well searched by locals? Tom Miner Basin, Rock creek, etc. Is that area just too “ranched”, populated to contain Forrest’s special place? Check out the view from Ferrell lake.

    • meBigGuy,

      Haven’t heard about any quest there, but it does have Banana Peel Dam near by. So to me “grab every banana” if you have solves for it.

      Good luck,
      Bur

    • meBigGuy – I don’t see any reason why it can’t be. If Joe Brown Creek is your home of Brown, then would that make Sphinx Creek be your next step in the sequence, since that is the next creek downstream from Joe Brown? I see that there’s both a Sphinx Creek and an adjacent Sphinx Mountain so that could be your heavy loads and water high?

      It looks like the areas along Joe Brown Creek, Rock Creek, Tom Miner Creek are all on privately owned & fenced off land (not a deal-breaker according to what Forrest has said, but I generally stay away from trespassing on private land as a personal rule), but Sphinx Creek area looks like open game, and it appears that there are some trails passing through the area. I would not be at all surprised if that area’s been searched before, but maybe it’s worth a look to see if anything was missed?

    • That entire area from Gardiner to Carbella has been extensively explored over the years. Of course, that doesn’t rule out a solve in that area. If you think you have a good solve, go for it.

    • meBigGuy, Are you just guessing or did the poem tell you that? If you are just looking at a map and matching up names, then I wouldn’t put to much into it. If solving the poem put you at that spot, then who knows, could be. Being a relative newcomer, I would say to try to find a way to solve the poem. Put any maps away for now and find your special way of solving the poem. That is the only way to find a spot. Any guessing, and you can police yourself in that matter, is just wasting time. All, IMO.

    • meBigGuy,

      I ran across some post from searchers from around 2013 I believe, maybe later, who talked about the Joe Brown put in as hoB and then built solves from that. But understand, the search area is vast, and even if others have gone up Tom Miner’s or other places it does not mean the chest is not there, just that they did not find it. Remember people have been within 200 feet of the chest and not found it.

      Good luck with your hunting.

  33. Does anyone think that HOB could have something to do with FF working in BRONZE ? I sure have a reason to think that .

    • It’s certainly possible. A home of bronze could be a place described as a foundry or furnace, or maybe a gallery that deals in bronze works … although I would think an *actual* gallery or bronzework business would not stand the test of time, so more likely a natural feature somehow connected to these ideas, or a place named in such a fashion; place names sometimes last long after the inspiration for the name has been forgotten.

    • I do, JPE. That capital B has never made sense to me except as a way to make the possessive “Brown’s”, which sounds kinda like bronze. Still doesn’t get me anywhere, hope you have a better idea.

      • Kate . i believe HOB to be a very large place , or i guess it is an object also , you just have to know where to PUT IN under it .

    • JPE – I must have missed this comment when you originally posted. I have considered this line of thinking as a possibility, but haven’t been able to come up with anything promising. I was thinking that the capitalization of “Brown” was an indicator to look for a named geographic feature (since proper nouns are supposed to be capitalized). Features with the name “Bronze” that I could find were scant. Nothing in New Mexico or Colorado, there’s a “Bronze Geyser” west of Shoshone Lake in Yellowstone NP, and a “Bronze Dam” in Northern Montana (neither of those features are labeled in GoogleEarth BTW). I couldn’t see anything with either of those locations that matched up with the rest of the poem (Bronze Dam also appears to be well outside of the Rocky Mountains).

      Since bronze is an alloy of copper mixed with other metals, tin being the most common, I also tried looking for features with “Copper” or “Tin” in their names (sort of translating “home of Brown” to mean “origin of Bronze”). There are several Copper Mountains (most well-known probably being the Colorado ski resort), but hardly anything for tin. I believe there’s a Tincup Creek up in Wyoming southwest of YNP and that’s about it.

      I also looked up a lot of information on copper mines as well. There are several famous ones from 19th & 20th century in Montana, and a few more scattered across the other search-states, but again I couldn’t really get anything to stick with these.

      I thought that this was a promising line of thinking at one point, but could never marry up the rest of the poem to anything compelling in any of these locations, so I gave up and moved on. I still keep this thought in the back of my head in case I happen to stumble across something that I’ve overlooked that might fit. I liked the prominence of bronze with regards to how prominent of a role that the material has played in Forrest’s life.

      • Blex , Hi , thanks for responding , try some research on Bronze forging , look at the different temperatures used when melting Bronze , and colors of the Bronze when heating up , you might SEE something .

  34. One of the best clues for HOB I’ve found is Chapter 1 of TFTW. Pay attention to part where he is searching for his old toys (treasures old) buried next to the remnants of his childhood home. It’s an analogy for both HOB and for the TC itself. He is acting out the search for us and giving some solid clues.
    He provides the direction of the TC in relation to your HOB.
    The whole poem is based around personal experiences and sometimes objective ones as well.

  35. about the home of Brown. Has any considered the possibility that Brown is
    an acquaintance of Fenn. Such as Sam Brown, who is also an artist/collector
    of about same age. Sam Brown Art, very close to Rio Chama , south of Abiquiu
    NM. They have to know each other being in the same business, big on Indian
    art and collectibles. Sam Brown Art House 189 Co Rd 155 Abiquiu NM 85710.
    That’s how acquaintances would refer to each other, by their surname.
    Plus interesting address, House 189. Whoever heard of that. Well house
    and home are of course similar. Looking at google earth there are Indian ruins
    across the river from his house. White rock also. I just started looking at this Saturday
    and my first thought was Fenn is saying that the Abiquiui dam is going to
    break some day and obliterate everything in its way. This high waters and heavy
    loads of debris. No more paddling upstream. Btw I believe it is quite a recreation
    area for rafting. Cliffs along river. Could have some reference to owls, either
    a rock formation or art on cliffs. Someone might want to check it out,
    Of course I saw the agreed upon facts that said the beginning point cannot be
    a dam, but I don’t know where they got that. Everything else falls into place.
    Canyon leading from dam, house of brown, river, distances from canyon to Brown.
    just got to find the blaze (owl). Well anyways that’s my two cents worth.

  36. I think FF is an acquaintance of Brown but was introduced many years ago , and though they never spoke a word , they occupied the same spot , as if WATCHING EACH OTHER .

  37. Could a pueblo/mission be the Home of Brown…? Franciscan friars were of the order Brown Franciscans (wore brown robes). It would qualify as a proper noun but would also be a place that would last 100+ years (historic site). Would also explain “no place for the meek” if the pueblo had been part of the revolts (late 1600’s). Would also satisfy ff’s archeology interest. Most of these sites are also located next to creeks, canyons, and hot springs.

    • mick- absolutely a puelo/mission can be the home of Brown IMO.
      that is, i mean, if it is treasure you seek.
      as for the chest though, the HOB would be the Byrd Naturalist cabin.
      and for the bronze box of goodies, well thats another matter entirely.
      i think.

  38. Using my imagination, I just had a major breakthrough but then the phone rang and I lost my train of thought. Do y’all think that possibly the HOB might be somewhere far, far away?

    • I imagine far, far away is too far for my solve IMO. I guess one would have to define “far” (at or to a great distance) if its distance we are actually talking about; However, my HOB is still too far away.

  39. We have been working hard on finding explanations for Forrest Fenn’s poem. During winter 18/19 we’ve got our solution – it is consistent and quite simple.

    We were (and still are) that conviced about it, that we planned and undertook a treasure-hunting-expedition in New Mexico in May 19. This was not a one-day-trip for us – we live in Switzerland! Four guys of us had some fun and exciting days in the Rocky Mountains. Our goal was to find the last clue (we know that it is necessary to be on site for that) – and of course – to find the treasure.

    Unfortunately we didn’t find it. We underestimated the weather in May in the mountains of New Mexico. There was still too much melting water in ‚our‘ canyon and we even got some snowfall. Althought we reached the place that we wanted, it was not possible to search there as intensive as it would have been necessary.

    We really would like to go back for another attempt. But for us it’s just too expensive and time-consuming to go for another searching-expedition.

    So we decided to share our solution with the community in this blog. We will add some Videos that describes it clue by clue – and parallel we complete our treasure map step by step. We hope to give some inspiration. And we hope to get a kickback from the one who finds the treasure due to our solution :-).

    We just published our solution about ‘Home of Brown’ on our site. Have a look on https://www.get-it-now.ch

    Be careful when you search along our solution at ‚our place‘. We think that the place is not really too dangerous, but there can obviously bee too much water after the snowmelt and after heavy rainfalls.

    • IMO, but it’s useless to publish your solutions here. No one real searcher will go to “revealed places” because for real searcher only one solution is correct – his/her own solution. Each time when I read these published solutions I have only one conclusion – it’s a wrong solution.
      Thanks for sharing but I will never go there.

  40. Brown house – how many versions have already been said, I’ve thought why the forest chose a house, a lot can be done for it, if for example he said a mountain, it would be obvious where to look, so it’s not casual that the brown house is, I’m more inclined what is Mount Browns

    • John;

      You indicated in one of your posts that you had a problem with translation. This may be the case here. The poem says HOME of Brown, not HOUSE of Brown. Maybe there is no difference in translation in your native language, so it may not be a big deal. Just thought I would mention it – JDA

  41. Because I do not feel like reading through the 1000 posts here, can someone say whether or not this has been discussed as the “home of brown.”

    Going from Cody, Wyoming due to his reference of the Buffalo named Cody and the Buffalo Bill Center heading west. WWWH being the warm spring in Cody, then the home of Brown being across Buffalo Bill Reservoir. Using his reference to many characters as well as Marvel in the poem, the Wheel of Wonderment is there. Wonderment, Montana was the fictional town in many marvel stories first originally appearing in…none other than…Blaze of Glory #1!!!! It is where Rachel Brown was from.

  42. I’m pretty sure that somebody has already posted something about the difference between a house and a home, but just for curiosity I tried and found this:

    “The main difference between them is that “house” is concrete. “House” refers to a building in which someone lives. In contrast, a “home” can refer either to a building or to any location that a person thinks of as the place where he lives and that belongs to him. A “home” can be a house or an apartment, but it could also be tent, a boat, or an underground cave.

    A home can even be something abstract, a place in your mind. When you say, “Let’s go home,” you are probably not talking simply about going to the physical structure where you live. You are talking about being in the special place where you feel most comfortable and that belongs to you.”

    In that sense the home of Brown may refer to the specific space or location that Brown once lived, whoever that particular Brown was. Or a specific “Brown” trout once stayed longer during its journey from a pond to a stream, maybe? Just saying.

    — MajinKing

    • MajinKing;

      If you think that it is related to something in nature, why limit yourself to Brown trout? There are tons of BROWN things in nature – Bears, Beavers, Buffalo,
      or Bison, Deer, Elk, Moose, Badgers, Eagles etc. The Rockies are “Home” to all of these, and countless others – And Forrest mentions sever of these in his writings – Just sayin’ JDA

    • Good analysis, MajinKing. It is consistent with my solution of the hoB.
      It looks like that many searchers become sceptical about hoB as very important clue but they are wrong.

    • I see what you did there MK. Are you certain that in your interpretation of what/who Brown is no specialized knowledge is needed?

      • Hi Oz10,
        Probably you can call that a specific or specialized knowledge, but you have to find out what is your own Brown (whether it is a trout, bear, bison, beaver, or buffalo or whatever) or who is your Brown.
        — MajinKing

  43. heading out to my solve area late summer; IMO home of Brown isn’t a location; it is a time of year. Brown trout come home to spawn September/October. If you put in after spawning season starts there much less water (snow melt has mostly ended), making it easier to go ‘up your creek.’

  44. The first NP is Yellowstone which IMO is hoB. Look at the signage for all NPs, the main color is brown. PIBTHOB could be below the boundaries or borders of YNP as a thought. Cinnamon is brown in color, and related to the spices ff had written about, so IMO Cinnamon Mtn could be another.

    Done rambling, this has been brought up before here at hoD and am leaning towards below the borders.

  45. Another definition:

    home

    verb
    1.(animal)
    To return by instinct to its territory after leaving it.

  46. Not too long ago I read that Forrest made a comment regarding a particular solution that involved the Lewis & Clark cipher. I then decided to try it out myself. I was able to write a program that allowed me to apply any keyword/password to the poem (coded message) which produced a string of letters making up the real message. I then searched the real message to identify sections that match words in the English language.

    Eventually, I applied the keyword “dinosaur” which produces the following https://imgur.com/aoNxaOQ . As you can see, this spells out “brown” and lies directly beneath “wise”. Is it possible that the treasure resides in Dinosaur National Park, making Brown’s Park the HOB, and that finding the correct HOB is in fact the blaze? Before making this discovery, there were many other aspects that attracted my searching attention to this area, but this certainly solidified it.

    I believe Forrest has been quoted saying something along the lines of hints being sprinkled throughout the stories. The pictures are certainly sprinkled throughout the book and it seems to me that it wouldn’t be unlikely for an art dealer to hide clues within the pictures. The following seems to align with above theory https://imgur.com/eyteqdp

  47. Hi Darvcus: it is difficult to support the notion that Brown is part of the second clue in light of the fact that the clues are contiguous, consecutive and sequential. While Forrest has not come out and said how many clues are in the second stanza, he did apparently feel the need to correct the reporter when she suggested the second stanza had “a couple of clues”:

    Relevant transcript: Host Carol Off: “Some of the clues maybe are things that people locally would know. You say begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down. Not far, but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown. That seems like a couple of clues to me.”

    FF: “That sounds like three or four to me.”

    Link: : http://lummifilm.com/blog/CBC2013.mp3 (3/5/2013) at about 4 minutes 20 seconds into the interview.

    Now before you seize on the “sounds like” part of Forrest’s answer, consider this:

    MW Q&A (7/4/2014): “You told a reporter that there are three or four clues in the second stanza. Were you telling the truth? ~Alison R”

    FF: “I don’t know what it is about girls but when I say something they automatically ask if I’m lying. Shame on you Allison R. I promise you that I get more things right than most reporters. If you were here I would make you take a dose of castor oil. Besides, if I lied to the reporter what makes you think I would tell you the truth?

    “Sorry Alison, I’m off my soap box now. No, I was not lying but I don’t remember a reporter asking me such a question.f”

    So you see, it’s very hard to accept that home of Brown is the second clue.

    • I agree Zap.
      The 3rd clue is somewhere in this line if not all of:
      Put in below the home of Brown.
      Not the 2nd clue but most likely the 3rd clue and I will eat my hat if it isn’t.

      Those interviews/questions speaks volumes of this for those that are paying attention.

        • Why don’t you bring your points forward why it’s the 4th clue as you ask.

          What ATF’s do you have to support that? Will you eat my hat when you have to?

        • Hi meBigGuy: I’ve been in the camp that “Put in below the home of Brown” (that whole line) is clue #4. Searchers who think it is clue #3 must either dismiss “And take it in the canyon down” as a clue, or dismiss “Not far, but too far to walk” as one.

          • So is there any “canyon” that would not lead to another canyon and maybe another canyon or plain drained by another creek/river/canyon? IMHO we get NFBTFTW as a -hint- used to define the distance to take the “canyon (clue) down,” NFBTFTW.

          • I agree, and both those are possible (well, not dismiss, but combine in some interesting ways). For example 1 and 2 can be combined to indicate warm waters halt and restart in said canyon. And, of course, if it is all metaphorical, who is to say how they might combine.

          • Hi Ethical Dilemma:
            “IMHO we get NFBTFTW as a -hint- used to define the distance to take the “canyon (clue) down,” NFBTFTW.”

            I have a problem with NFBTFTW being considered just a hint because IMHO it precisely constrains the “Put in” location. (My put-in location does not have a name.) By Forrest’s definition, a clue gets you closer to the treasure chest. WWWH certainly does that; so does “Take it in the canyon down” because it’s telling you which direction to go from WWWH. So that’s two. NFBTFTW is also a clue (the one the 2-clue solvers of 2013-2015 apparently couldn’t figure out, IMO), because it gives me a hard limit of how far down the canyon to go, and by doing so uniquely identifies my put-in spot.

            It seems logical that any element of the poem that guides you along the trajectory that Forrest engineered to lead you to the treasure should be considered a clue. And by that logic, the second stanza would seem to hold four clues.

            If a searcher’s clue count is only at 3 by the end of the 2nd stanza, and he/she believes the blaze is the 9th clue (I don’t, but it seems like many or even most do), then apparently that searcher must count “heavy loads” and “water high” as separate clues. Otherwise, I see no way to get up to 8 prior to the blaze:

            4: From there it’s no place for the meek
            5: The end is ever drawing nigh
            6: There’ll be no paddle up your creek
            7: Just heavy loads
            8: and water high

            (I don’t count “If you’ve been wise” as a clue because it’s past tense, and the clues are in sequential order.)

          • Zap, you said- “he/she believes the blaze is the 9th clue (I don’t, but it seems like many or even most do), “

            “Heavy loads and water high”, it just seems logical they are separate clues by the “and” in between.
            Not to mention they are at two different locations, about 300’ as the crow flies up or about 500’ as the trail curves up.

            Of course this is my findings.

            Bur

          • Bur: in my view, it could go either way — one clue or two. By counterexample, I’d point to the very next line in the poem: “If you’ve been wise AND found the blaze” — I don’t think that’s two clues, yet an “and” separates two things in that clause.

          • HLnWH as two clues?
            Possible.
            However, WhatIF “and” combines those as one?
            A quick [ and of the top of my head ] example; a water-tower. Is that not “heavy” by the weight of “water” it holds and a single object? Another example could be; a tire and rim… while they can be separated as two individual pieces… a tire, and a rim the tire is placed on… they can be as one for the purpose of “and” that combines them as a single object vs. two.

            So, as to the poem, my question would be; can HLnWH be of two separate clue’s references from earlier in the poem and now in stanza 3 act as one reference for some reason-?- creating a new clue reference utilizing ‘found’ and prior clues?

            Just a third option to ponder…

        • Jake,
          You seem positive it is the third clue and infer there are ATF’s to support that. You could be correct. I’m not saying it IS the fourth clue. I am sincerely asking what support you draw on for your “eat my hat” level of conviction that it is the 3rd clue (and not the fourth)? You did say you will eat your hat if it is not the 3rd clue, correct?

          My personal opinion is 1 clue per line (after begin) with the exception of the 9th (which is two). That’s the simplest to me, and I like simple. (begin, head down, go some distance, put in) But, of course, simple can be over-ridden to make a potential solve fit.

          mBG

          • Yes, I’m positive.
            The 3rd clue is in this line:
            Put in below the home of Brown.

            I’m not going to list all the evidence again here so you will have to research if you really want to see it.

            Couple tidbits:
            I don’t think you’re going to title your book after a clue in the poem and we know wwwh is the 1st clue.

            You begin at a spot – 1st clue
            Take it in the canyon down – 2nd clue
            Not far, but too far too walk. – Fenn has said this is a metaphor for his life.
            This line in the poem is very vague and does not have a direction or A to B type movement. No action whatsoever and possibly is a hint to both the 2nd clue and 3rd clue where you shouldn’t walk these clues.

            It’s not that difficult when you know the 1st clue is so close to the others in the poem.

            1 clue per line died out with Fenn’s quotes a while back.
            Do your research!
            This comment is my opinion.

  48. Put in below the home of Brown ,, ok , when FF dad got the job ob principal at school he got his own parking spot , right up front , where you go in and had a wooden sign . well , there is a parking spot below the home of Brown where we go into THE WOODS and there is a wooden sign there too. IMO

    • JPE – this is the SMARTEST thing that has been said on here for quite some time. At least in my opinion. Now think about the line “if you are brave and in the wood.”

      • ok wwwamericana , if you are brave and in the woods , lets just say that we drive to SOMWHERE and say “this is where I need to stop driving and start walking ” so we pull into the parking spot which is right up front where we go in [ the woods ] , and there is a wooden sign at the entrance where we go in , we most likely would enter the woods by walking a trail , but we must leave the trail at some time to be BRAVE AND IN THE WOOD . IMO

          • Well wwwamericana , i don’t think I want to spill the beans about that at this time , but i will say that there are searchers that have posted where they have been [ and not just years ago but resently ] and they walked by this sign but unforgenatly walked by the chest not once but twice

    • JPE,
      I will agree that there is a parking place below the home of Brown, but this is not the place you “put in” at. As far as a wooden sign, well there is one of those too but it at the beginning of the canyon down trail.
      Of course this is info I have come across, but a good way to look at it JPE.

      Good luck,
      Bur

  49. I’m just curious, if “put in below the home of Brown” is the 4th clue, what would make f say that he “thinks” a searcher may have 4 clues, he wasn’t sure? If f knows the 4th clue, and line 8 is it, then isn’t the searcher either correct in where they “put in” or incorrect?
    Meaning, f would know if that searcher was right?
    Why the “I’m not sure”?
    If you have to “put in below the home of Brown” then wouldn’t it be right or wrong, and not “but not sure”?
    If the searcher sent f an email saying where, they are either right or wrong. If they sent a pic, then as long as you were there, then that’s getting the clue right.
    If the clue is a spot, (the put in place below the home of Brown), then you are either there or not, no confusion. So no comment as if they may have 4 clues but not sure. It’s yes or no, right? Just a simple question, that’s all.
    When I think of the forth clue, it has to be something where f really doesn’t know if the searcher has it right or not. I would think if the 4th clue was just a “spot”, then f would answer that question differently. yes or no.
    Not trying to single you out Zap, I’m just curious, legit question that I know I’ll get a fair answer from you. I’m sure you have that covered, you know the ATF’s, I just feel if that line is number 4, (and I’m not saying it isn’t), then why would f not be sure?
    I can see the blaze as being confusing for him if someone took a pic, but didn’t describe the clue correctly, like I can see if someone took a pic of a hoB, but the “put in” part would leave no question.
    I don’t have the line a clue at all, so doesn’t impact me, but a lot of people do, and I’m just curious how those that do could explain how f would be confused with one of his clues. (and yes, my 4th clue is the blaze)…In fact, my clues:
    lines 5,6,9,13,16,17,20,22,24

    • One simple possibility: if a physical put-in location is indicated by the solution to the fourth clue, and a searcher mentioned parking their vehicle there, but gave no indication of why, did they solve 4 clues? Forrest may not know unless that searcher provided the specific clue-solving explanation for why they arrived at that spot. After all, people arrive at WWWH and don’t have a clue about the significance of the location; perhaps the same is just as possible with the solution to “Put in below the home of Brown.”

      • Zap, if they arrived at a correct below HoB parking spot, and it is a driving distance away from WWWH, how could one presume they got there other than getting PIBHOB correct? By accident?

      • Hi Aaron: there are a finite number of places that one can park a car within, say, 10 miles of a given starting location — far fewer as that distance shrinks. (Diggin Gypsy has probably parked in all of them, lol.) Considering how constrained the problem is if you’ve got the correct WWWH, it might not be that remarkable to park in the correct spot by happenstance.

        By comparison, consider all the potential WWWH’s in the Rockies. Yet some people still showed up at the right spot, oblivious to its connection to the poem. Which is less likely: accidentally picking the right WWWH out of hundreds of thousands of square miles in four states, or inadvertently picking the right put-in location when you “know” you’ve got the right WWWH? (“Know” in quotation marks for obvious reasons.)

        • Good point Zap. The chances of inadvertently picking the right put-in location when you have the right WWWH are greater than picking the right WWWH. It would seem to mean though that once at the right spot they would have to immediately walked the wrong direction, thereby not making it to NPFTM, if that is in fact a clue? If this is the case then the chest would need to be very close to the put in spot for a searcher to come within 200 feet without solving that clue.

        • Hi Aaron: I think it’s a mistake to conclude with certainty that the put-in location is closer to the treasure chest than is WWWH. The clues do not ~need~ to progressively take you closer (as the crow flies) to the treasure. The 500- and 200-footers may have only solved WWWH; or they may have solved no clues at all.

          • Zap;

            If I have solved no clues, then why would I have emailed or written Forrest and described where I was?

            Is it logical that someone would write Forrest, and say, “While on vacation I was at this spot” – and described it, or sent a picture? Forrest says wow – by accident, while on vacation you were within 200′ or 500′ of Indulgence – and you did it without solving a single clue, and you just happened to write ant tell me about it??? Sorry, just does not compute for me – JMO – JDA

          • Hi JDA:
            “If I have solved no clues, then why would I have emailed or written Forrest and described where I was?”

            Hah! 🙂 Up until recently, people were doing exactly that over 100 times a day, lol. 😉

            But more seriously, in the course of emailing Forrest — because they wanted to tell him about a (failed, obviously) trip — they naturally will describe where they went, and probably why. If they’ve got the wrong WWWH (for instance), but in order to get to where they searched they actually passed the correct one, Forrest would know they “arrived” at the starting point, but were oblivious to its connection to the poem. You know the quote I’m referring to from Forrest Gets Crazy Mail:

            “Dear Emily, Searchers continue to figure the first two clues and others arrive there and don’t understand the significance of where they are. f”

            Now, when Forrest says “others,” does he mean “other searchers” or just other people? And if the latter, how would he know since he never would have personally heard from such people? (Rhetorical question, really. If WWWH is in some sort of high-traffic area, then Forrest can know people go by it every day who have never heard of the Thrill of the Chase.)

            This same argument can apply to home of Brown, or more importantly — whatever Forrest is referring to when he says to “put in below” it.

          • Hi JDA: on re-reading your comment, I see you were specifically referring to my claim that the 200- or 500-footers might not have solved any clues. Let me respond with an example using a popular area.

            Suppose the chest is within 500 feet of the road that goes from West Yellowstone to Madison Junction, yet a searcher coming from West Yellowstone thinks Ojo Caliente is WWWH, and all his or her clues are in its general vicinity. In this hypothetical scenario, they have solved zero clues — and yet Forrest KNOWS they’ve been within 500 feet of the treasure because it was unavoidable for them.

          • Hi JDA,
            just want ask you: did you send any e-mail to Forrest about your solution?
            My answer is: no. My first e-mail to Forrest will be send only if I found the blaze and TC. Before I don’t see any reason and logic to disturb Forrest. Firstly, I know that even if I was 100 feet from TC he will never respond my e-mail. If I send him my solution for the hoB he will also never say that it’s wrong or correct. It looks like that Forrest never get correct solution for the hoB during these almost 10 years since the chase started. And searchers that were near “put in” never solved this clue i.e. just they just parked there and walked around this spot. Maybe they explained their solution for first 2 clues but never explained the reason why they parked near PIBOTHOB and started search there.
            Andy

      • Hmmm, that’s a tough one to swallow Zap. Only because to f, Solving a clue is getting the clue correct (whether you know it with surety or not).
        If they showed up, whether they knew or not, they are there, and to f, that’s solving the clue. So he would then know the answer, no confusion. To us, they didn’t know squat, but f would have to answer in the positive.
        It’s the ‘put in’ part of that line that makes it tough to see it as the 4th clue. Again, not saying it isn’t, just “put in” is such a specific place, (if I’m reading everyone’s definition of ‘put in’ as an action). To me, that line is just an “observation” of f looking forward from the canyon. The “put in” is just him recollecting the chest placement. Again, not saying that is correct either. Just that the 4th clue has a certain idea that it must follow.
        Like Bur said below, I’m in the camp that someone sent f a pic, described something in that pic as the 4th clue, but their explanation was referencing the wrong thing. So they explained it wrong, but the pic has the 4th clue in it. But even with that, f said, if you are there, whether you know or not, you got the clue correct. So, play with words and not something that needs attention, just go with it or, the 4th clue is so tricky, that even there, a searcher could still not understand it or see it. If that is the case, well, that sounds like the blaze to me.
        Below, I agree with you on the 200 footers as far as clues solved. Yes JDA, it very well could be possible that not one clue could be solved and you wind up within 200′. Only because of the comment almost every end of Winter that f makes. That it’s close to time when the chest will again hear footsteps of hiking boots. (paraphrasing). So I have to agree with Zap JDA.
        MM, what moody said, exactly.
        The hoB may be the 4th, it may not even be a clue, we don’t know. I know we can’t just rip everything f says to the bone, and he will and has made mistakes, I guess, in the end it’s to each of everyone’s own solve. I think we could all come up with a good write up of why it’s a clue or not, why it’s the 4th, or not, or that the second stanza has 3 or 4 clues. Are the remaining 5 clues then very close to each other? And, with knowing hoB means you can go right to the chest, is it possible that hoB is an area containing the rest? I think the “put in” part of that line is the big question. Action or observation?

    • poisonivey-
      I think you brought up a very good point. I might add that some people think each clue should refer to a different geographic location (I’m not saying I necessarily agree with this but it is a possibility). If that’s the case then “canyon down” can’t be a clue since it’s a direction rather than a location. If canyon down is a clue then that opens up the possibility that later clues don’t need to correspond to specific geographic locations. I think NPFTM is the clue f isn’t sure searchers got right. This is all in my opinion.

    • Poisonivey,

      I think most searchers think that a searcher was searching and emailed Forrest of their search. That’s how the 4 clue solve statement came about.
      But “what if” around that time of the statement a searcher sent a email of a area they maybe “planned on” searching hitting some key points in the area. Now let’s say they did this by mentioning in the email the names of wwwh, hoB, canyon down trail, put in area place, and other various places. Did they solve the clues to get those answers, maybe, but they didn’t say these were the findings they came up with for the poem clues. So that’s why Forrest may have stated – “Some may have solved the first four clues, but I am not certain.”
      Like you said, how can he not be certain, he knows all the answers.

      Now maybe those searchers stated, are the ones who are really close to the total solve now.

      Just thinking out loud.

      Good luck,
      Bur

  50. I really don’t think -home of Brown- is labeled on ANY map, new or old. I don’t think it’s a person, mountain, lake, river, ranch or private property.
    Bottom line is I don’t know what Brown is but I do want to know where it is because I think that’s more important.
    Do you have to know what Brown is to find out where it is?
    I don’t think so.

    • Something amorphous… my thoughts as well…. climate, biology, sound??? Or maybe something humorous.

    • Hello Jake. Is it just “home of Brown” that needs understanding? Is it possible that “Put in below the home of Brown” is the full clue, should it be a clue?

    • Hi Jake Faulker
      If you know where wwwh is it is easy to find home of Brown
      But if you don’t it will be hard,go back to the beginning.
      Clint

      • No, Clint. HoB is not a slam-dunk if you have solved WWWH. The proof is that hoB is almost certainly not the second clue, and the earliest solvers of the first two clues could not figure out the third clue after at least two years. Q.E.D.

        • Not to mention that f has not said anything about the third clue. It’s kind of weird, he’s not sure if someone has solved 4 clues, but, didn’t say they solved 3.
          Do we take it for granted that if someone may have solved 4 clues, that they must have at least solved 3? It’s easy to say that you are probably on a trail, and that to get to the 4th clue, you must have already been to the third. So, is hoB, (for the ones that think it’s a clue), is hoB the 3rd or forth?
          Since the start of this post was to consider the hoB as the forth, then the third being NFBTFTW, that would be accomplished already, and therefore solved. So, I good question would be to Fenn, has the third clue been solved?
          If yes, then the hoB may very well be the 4th clue, if no, then we are right back to the beginning of only two clues have been solved, and all these years, learned nothing.
          What does it mean if 4 clues may have been solved, but the 3rd clue has not been solved?
          It leads to the third clue has been solved and the forth we are not sure, or, the third clue isn’t something to solve. It’s just on our path to the chest. Or a distance from the second to the forth clues. If so, then that would need to be a clue that needs to be solved to continue on. But f said the minimum amount of clues you need to solve is the last one, not the third and the last. Just the last. So this would imply that the third IS NOT a solve clue.

          • Hi Pi, The third and fourth clue could be very close together, like if (no paddle creek), fourth clue, is right at HOB, (third clue). IMO

          • Hi PoisonIvey;

            There is another option.

            Clue #1:
            Begin it where warm waters halt
            And take it in the canyon down,
            Not far, but too far to walk.

            Clue #1:
            Put in below the home of Brown.

            This leaves Clue #3 as:
            From there it’s no place for the meek
            The end is ever drawing nigh.

            And Clue #4 then becomes:
            There’ll be no paddle up your creek
            Just heavy loads and water high.

            This way of slicing the pie gets one a lot farther along in the poem by the time they solve clues #3 and #4 –

            This is just another way of slicing the pie PoisonIvey -JMO – JDA

            P.S. I use ALL lines of the poem in my solves – Stanza #1 is a prelude, and then all lines thereafter are used. – JDA

          • lol, JDA. You could have just said to use the sentences of the poem. But I get what you are saying. In fact, my 3rd clue is the meek line. And, I was taking into assumption that “lines” are clue references, which I shouldn’t have done, so you are right, possible. I’m just still, after all these years, not so convinced of hoB being what everyone thinks it is. A lot of searchers depend on it to be a clue, maybe it is, but I’m not convinced. The oddity of the line, the vagueness, the searcher having to define “put in”, and of course- the obvious. It’s like the slight of hand tricks, distraction. “Here, look at this hand, (while my other hand actually does all the work).
            It’s like the poem saying, look at this part of the poem, while the rest of the poem tells you what to do.
            I do agree with you that all lines must be used. My last clue is line 24, that just seems to be logical. Or why waste the time with later lines if you stop at say line 14.
            But back to hoB, somewhere within lines 6-8, there must be something to solve to get the exact “put in” place. A distance, direction from the canyon or whatever. Or do searchers “put in” in a vague general area? That’s why I asked Zap. He has solved for a distance from the canyon to his “put in” spot. At least that’s what I gather. That, to me, requires a solve of the clue beforehand, which in turn means that f was misleading us when he stated that the minimum clues we need to solve is the last clue. If a solve to the distance between the canyon and “put in” spot is needed, then the minimum amount of clues would be 2.
            But there is an out. It’s just for Zap. he doesn’t have that out in his solve, so I was just curious and asked him.
            The only out I see, where a searcher would need to solve clues to stay in line with the ATF of just one needed, is that the whole story of the poem, up to clue 8, is that the searcher is looking for something else. That the whole poem gives you a path to the “x” on a map, and at that “x” is something else. Then, solving the 9th clue would get you to the chest. Then, solving of the clues would be needed to find this other thing, that once found, is the reference point from which the last clue must be solved to find the chest. That, from what I see is the only way to keep the ATF’s in line. The path of all the clues would be the same, but f would have his “plausible deniability” still available. It does take a minimum of one clue to find the chest- the last, all the clues must be followed, etc…
            If “x” is the final spot, and the whole chase is about only finding the chest, then clues don’t need to be solved, just the last one. Clues would then need only to be followed, which sounds ridiculous. It’s most likely that some form of numbers would need to be used to find a spot. That requires solving. But the “last clue minimum” ATF only allows for one clue to be solved to find the chest. Now, he never has said how many clues are needed to solve to find whatever it is at the 8th clue, if that is how the chase is designed. So, if say Zap’s method of solving sees that there may be two storylines, and that the first 8 clues lead to something other than the chest, then I could agree with his method of using/solving multiple clues. But if the idea is that only the chest is involved, and a solve of the third clue is needed along with the ninth, well to me that breaks the ATF.
            It is not so far fetched about finding a bell first. The book says he will tell of his secret plan, (pg.133, hiding bells and jars, Dancing with the stars), and line 3 of the poem, (I can keep my secret where). If his “secret” plan is to bury bells, and he is contemplating where to put his “secret”, then he would be referring to his secret as being a bell, and not the chest. Which would make sense as far as a story goes. Find a bell first, then ring it before you find the chest, to let f know. This way, you can “solve” clues 1-8, to find your bell, while the last clue, the minimum amount needed to find the chest would be the 9th. So, when I see that searchers need to solve clues 1-8, then I’m curious on if they know that they are then looking for something else, because it can’t be that way if not. I’m sure searchers will not be happy about that, but think about it, and don’t break the ATF.

          • Poisonivey pondered: “… f has not said anything about the third clue. It’s kind of weird, he’s not sure if someone has solved 4 clues, but, didn’t say they solved 3.” Yes, Forrest has never mentioned anyone solving the third clue.

            “Do we take it for granted that if someone may have solved 4 clues, that they must have at least solved 3?”

            I wouldn’t; yes, that’s the most likely scenario, but it’s not fool-proof. Forrest’s unwillingness to ever say that someone has solved three clues — even when uncertain about 4 — suggests to me that whoever Forrest thought this searcher was at the time, they may not have provided an explicit reason for why they were where they were.

            “But f said the minimum amount of clues you need to solve is the last one, not the third and the last. Just the last.”

            If the last clue is unsolvable without having the context of solving all the clues that preceded it, that “minimum number of clues” is a bit of a red herring. It would be like having a scavenger hunt where the last clue is “go in the Starbucks.” Which one? You’ll have no idea if you haven’t solved all the steps that lead you to the correct one.

        • Hi Zap
          The beginning is not the second stanza ,I start
          with the first stanza and HOB is the 4th clue.
          You will have to find wwwsh first to find Brown.
          IMO Clint

          • Clint: WWWH is the first clue. That is no longer up for debate, and it’s in the second stanza. That means there can be no clue in the first stanza. That doesn’t mean you don’t NEED the first stanza in order to figure out WWWH.

            But I’m with you that hoB (or more specifically, that whole poem line) is the 4th clue. And that it’s unsolvable unless you’ve solved WWWH.

            I wonder what the statistical breakdown is of searchers who think hoB is clue #2, #3, #4, or higher?

          • Or not at all…
            Zap, I agree about solving clues. It’s just there must be a difference between it all. The last clue solve has to be independent for finding the chest. Clues 1-8 have to get you to that reference point, but clue 9 must be stand-alone to find the chest. I’m saying that there is something else that we could also be looking for. That covers clues 1-8. Whatever the clues are, they are meant to find this something else. Only the last clue will give the chest, but, you still need to get to that 8th clue anyway. It’s the only way his ATF makes sense.
            In reality, all clues must be solved to find the chest, you still have to get to that 8th clue, but the clues you are solving are to find this something else. I wonder if searchers are aware of this possibility, because if you are just solving for an “x” on a map, that “x” may not be what you thought. Also, if a searcher is just solving for clues to find the chest, then basically, red herring or not, they only need to solve the last clue. If that is the case, doesn’t that raise the question about what the other 8 clues do?
            I think that some clues can be solved, and need to be. Some clues cannot be solved. In using the word “solve”, if the first 8 clues are to be used to find the chest, then only one of those clues needs to be solved. But if the first 8 clues are used to find something else, even if they still need to be followed to get to that 8th clue spot and then the solve of the last to find the chest, f can say that only one clue is needed for the chest, the other 8 were used to find something else.
            Like your analogy, the first 8 clues would be needed to find the Starbucks, but to find the exact table, well you only need to solve one clue to find that, the last one.

    • Jake,
      I agree with your first two sentences. But I think we have to figure out what HOB is.

      Forrest has stressed that you need to know where to start. One reason why the starting point might be so important is that there aren’t uniquely identifiable clues after the starting point, IMO. So that the directions we’re following start us out someplace specific but then are the Fenn version of -go past the post office, left at the dry cleaners and you’ll find it behind the second convenience store you pass-. None of those places are unique, but if we start in the right place the directions will work. If that’s the case then we need to know what a clue is to find it. We would also need to have correctly solved the poem up to that point since a mistake would put us on a wrong path, and we might not even realize it since we could still be finding non specific clues (like a dry cleaners) on our incorrect route. This is only an indirect argument, but that’s the reason I think it’s really unlikely to find HOB if you don’t know what it is.

      • JW, ~ *Forrest has stressed that you need to know where to start.*

        Agree. Knowing where to start [the location of the all clues] might not be the same as locating /nailing down the ‘first clue.’
        Simply picking a State, NP, NF, and/or manufacturing WWsH, etc…imo… is not “learning” where/what WWsH is or at.

        Question; Could hoB be above WWsH?
        Should WWsH be a relatively large reference [say a lake, just for example] does hoB’s location [example, above WWsH] puts a searcher in the correct spot on said lake and canyon’s down reference?
        In this scenario, many would look for a ‘down’ at the lake, idea, in the hopes to find hoB ‘down’ [directional] from the lake. But it’s possible hoB sits above and gives us the correct canyon down reference.

        • Seeker,
          Sorry for the late reply, insomnia turned me into a zombie for a couple of days. Could HoB be above WWWH? Yes it can be but I’m not the one to say one way or another what the clues mean. I was just throwing an idea out there that the solution is a bit like a maze. You have to figure out and take all the right turns, or you’re just lost. It might explain the folks that have figured out the first two clues then “left the poem”. If you can recover from not knowing the third clue by finding a later clue that is unique (or at least unique to that area) then wouldn’t some of those people have been able to get back on track?

    • I’m not sure why my ‘comment’ was not in the tread containing pdenver’s comment “Is it possible that “Put in below the home of Brown” is the full clue, should it be a clue?”, but my ⭐️⭐️ post was intended as a kudos to her.

      Pinatubocharlie

      • I think I understand what hob is in reference. For the explanation, I would have to explore the second line prior to explain the third line.

  51. My two cents is that I believe that the home of Brown needs to be identified before BOTG, so that a searcher can move with confidence by knowing where to put in. Whether or not a searcher needs to physically visit WWWH or the canyon down in order to follow the path to the hidey spot is up for debate, however I feel that there is a stronger implication in the poem that the home of Brown is a place that must be physically visited on a BOTG trip.

    I’ll also say that I think figuring out what the home of Brown is requires a healthy balance of imagination and logic.

    I have to agree that I believe we’re looking for neither a location with the name “Brown” in its title, nor are we looking for a place associated with a person named “Brown”. I feel like just about every possibility along these lines of thinking seems to have been thoroughly scoured by searchers over the years (just from what I’ve read on the blogs) and have come up empty. All just my opinion, for whatever it’s worth.

    • Blex ~*My two cents is that I believe that the home of Brown needs to be identified before BOTG, so that a searcher can move with confidence by knowing where to put in.*

      IF hoB is identifiable prior and on a map before a search… why is WWsH needed at all-?- or canyon down, of NF,BTFTW to be identified/deciphered?
      I mean, we’re told to have WWsH or we don’t have anything, stay home. So my question would be; can we actually find hoB on a map and ‘know’ it as hoB? or do we need to see/locate it correctly from WWsH?
      Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve.

      • Seeker – You may be correct, but I haven’t seen anything from Forrest saying outright that the home of Brown can’t be identified on a map.

        When Forrest was asked the question about if someone found the home of Brown could they work backwards to determine WWWH, Forrest just responded something along the lines of yes, but if you know the home of Brown, why bother with WWWH? I think the answer to Forrest’s question here would be that finding a good WWWH that makes sense in relation to a possible home of Brown helps give someone a little more confidence in their solve.

        Not saying that this is the only way to look for hidey spots; I look for possible WWWH’s just as much as I look for possible hoB’s, as well as other possible clues in the poem.

        As far as whether can WWWH been seen from hoB, I have no strong opinions one way or the other. Either makes fine sense to me as a possibility, though thinking back most of my past solves there is no visual connection.

        • Blex,
          Rocking chair idea can get us to the first few [couple, imo] clues from a map. Even little Indy “can not get closer that the first two clues” [or anyone else, imo] with maps. I guess depending on your order of which clues are 1 – 9, I could argue hoB is a later clue and as many as 4 prior.
          Although, I have to correct the “bother” part of your response with, be concern. The question is basically asking why we should, be concern.

          Ok lets try this; I find hoB on a map and travel to the “put in” – from my home. What is the reason I would *need* be there? Why, if possible to locate later clues on a map, just go to HLnWH, for example.
          I am of two opinions of how this might work;
          1. Only the first two clue “references” can be found on a map, knowing what they are from that map.
          And
          2. Most [7-8 ish] clue’s references might be able to be found on a map…. but the question is; will we be able to recognized them on a map?
          When exactly is that “physical presence” needed? Personally, we know if we don’t have the first clue, we might as well stay home, doesn’t say to me we can bypass it and physically start at a later clue, such as the “put in” idea. Something is missing….

          Just a thought……

          • Clint,
            There must be a reason you ask…. I have read the book…. So I’m curious to what you really want to know.

          • Seeker – I can’t argue with anything you said and you make some good points. I remember when Goofy was commenting on this blog a lot, he always seemed to believe that in order to solve the poem, you could only determine WWWH from a map, and then the rest of the poem needed to be solved while you are doing a BOTG search. Who knows? Maybe he was correct.

            Everyone has different comfort levels on when to pull the trigger to make a BOTG trip. Personally for me, I like to have at least a semi-confident idea of where to go having a solve that includes a hypothetical path from a reasonable WWWH to maybe a HL&WH where the pieces seem like they can fit into place enough to boost my confidence. (And I live here in Colorado, so I have a decent advantage on travel distance to begin with. Imagine what kind of confidence some of these other searchers must need who live on the East or West Coasts, or even in other countries!) But that’s just me, and I’m just feeling my way through the unknown like everyone else.

            There are plenty of other things that one can rely on like TTOTC and ATF comments, so I understand what you’re saying.

            I tell ya, when I do a BOTG search and I am able to hike out to a spot where I feel like I can finally start looking for a blaze, my mind goes into this weird mode that tries to be perceptive of any and all possibilities around me and I’ve noticed that it somehow quickly tires me, as if I am burning through a huge amount of energy trying not to miss anything. I can’t imagine being in a state of mind like that starting from WWWH and going all the way through the poem from the start on a BOTG trip.

            Have you done a BOTG trip and experienced a similar feeling from what I described? I’m curious if it’s just me.

          • Blex,
            To answer your question… I need confidence in knowing the search location of all the clues. I’m not talking about locations of individual clues but where the search area is.
            Imo… This is where the book helps with the clues, and what is needed to be understood in stanza 1 (at least the way I see it).
            The only way I can see WWsH being nailed down is having learned where the search is to be done.
            My question is; can hoB relate to understanding the area?
            Fenn did imply if we knew hoB it would lead to the treasure.
            So, my question stands; can we know hoB prior or can we only truly know it when found at ground level?
            So far no one that we know of has any clues correct beyond the first two… Seems to me if hoB is known of prior to botg… the Game is done before ever leaving the rocking chair.

    • blex- the proper name is Byrd. the Byrd naturalist cabin that sits at the EXPEDITION TRAILHEAD (put in) at 10,000 feet in elevation. and the chest of the poem is close by, Dodo bird has the photos on his fun, safe side trip.

      i think.

  52. Hi Zap
    Yes I know wwwsh is the first clue and i didn’t say there was a clue in the
    first stanza I just said you need to start there and the last clue is look down
    Clint

    • Hi Zap
      Forrest said when you find the last clue look down.
      VOA with Penelope and Del recording voices.
      I need to correct the last clue from above to (the blaze
      look quickly down)IMO Clint

  53. Hi Seeker
    To me TTotC book is a riddle figure it out,it will put you on the right track
    depending which way you look at it.look at everything.Clint

  54. Hi Everybody,
    Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you all searchers! I’m going to say IMO just once here, and I won’t repeat that word in my posting below.

    I think Fenn’s saying, that if you know what and where the home of Brown is you don’t need to know the location of WWWH, is absolutely right. You can start from WWWH but if you miss the HOB then you can never find the TC. I said several times about the solution to the chase before (of course I have not revealed 100% of my solve), but I’m going to repeat some of the key points about my solve.

    1. You can clearly see the names of WWWH and the blaze on any maps.
    2. But you CANNOT find the name of the home of Brown on any maps, period. I’m pretty sure that “Brown” is a name of a person, not a trout. You have to guess the location. And I’m certain that “Brown” is also a word that is a key as Fenn refers.
    3. But if you guess it right, you don’t need the WWWH anymore, but in order to get there you have to pass the WWWH. Remember Fenn said that there is no short cuts.
    4. If you can identify what the “Big Picture” Fenn mentioned you’ll have a big a-ha moment and you will immediately understand the big picture of the chase solution.
    5. So as I have said more than a couple times, there are only three locations you need to identify to retrieve the TC, namely WWWH, HOB and the BLAZE.
    6. You can see HOB and BLAZE from WWWH. You can see WWWH and part of BLAZE from HOB. You can see WWWH and HOB from BLAZE through tree branches.
    7. You can solve every clue from your armchair except the last clue. As soon as you’ve solved the first 8 clues you can start your BOTG right away, but not before you do that. It will be a waste of your money, time, and energy.

    Good luck to all searchers! Only go out into the woods when there is no snow on the ground.

    — MajinKing

    • Hi MajinKing,
      thanks for sharing so many details of your solution. It’s definitely not even close to my solution. I can’t “see WWWH and HOB from BLAZE through tree branches.”
      I start BOTG when I have solved first 3-4 clues including the hoB. Other clues searcher should start to solve when he/she stay below of the hoB (IMO). And actually I can go there without passing WWWH.
      Merry Christmas and a Happy New Year to you and to all searchers!

      • Hi poisonivey,
        It’s because nobody knows the exact location of the HOB not even Fenn himself IMO. You can only guess the approximate location.
        — MajinKing

        • MK;

          I am sorry, but that is about the most foolish thing I have seen posted. Of course Forrest knows EXACTLY where (and what) hoB is. What makes you think that he doesn’t? If he can describe how to get there (“and take it in the canyon down, Not far but too far to walk. Put in below the home of Brown”) doesn’t it seem logical that he knows EXACTLY where hoB is, and what it is? Sure seems that way to me.

          Please explain your statement – I would like to know what and why you made such a statement – Curious – JDA

          • JDA,
            I won’t pretend to know what was on MK’s mind, but thought I’d chime in – hope you don’t mind.

            Though I’m sure Forrest knows exactly what geographically represents HoB, what I infer from MK’s comment is that it depends on a searcher’s deduction of each clue and whether it’s geographic representation is areal, lineal (but not necessarily a straight line), or a specific point.

            Presumig HoB is a clue, I am of the same opinion as MK; I happen to believe HoB – in and of itself – is NOT a specific geographic point; though I may be wrong in my inference.

            MK’s implication aside, this raises, IMO, an important question: Is “Begin it” the beginning of the poem’s path, or is it revealed elsewhere in the second stanza?

            A path exists for a reason: Typically, to allow ease of movement of people and things from point A to point B. All non-circular paths will have points at with they begin and end. In The Chase, the endpoint is the great mystery, but where does the poem’s path actually begin (not the same as the BOTG path, IMO)?

            A parting question: Does the poem reveal specific geographic points that MUST be deduced from two or more clues, areal or lineal in nature, and some number of poem phrases containing other information?

            This may have nothing to do with your response to MK – if so, please ignore.

            (original) Joe

    • MK: “5. So as I have said more than a couple times, there are only three locations you need to identify to retrieve the TC, namely WWWH, HOB and the BLAZE.”

      I disagree.
      You only need to know the last clue which I think is the blaze.

      • Hi Jake,
        The blaze is the last clue minus one. The last clue is the last two lines in the poem IMO. If you can locate the correct blaze without finding the WWWH and HOB first, go ahead and go to your blaze. But I say it again: you have to physically pass the WWWH, HOB, and NPFTM creek to get to the blaze. There are no short cuts. If you can get to your blaze without passing the above mentioned two locations and the path your blaze is not the right blaze IMO.
        — MajinKing

        • What if I know where the blaze is and drop in via helicopter?
          Then I don’t need to “physically pass the WWWH, HOB, and NPFTM creek”

          If you think about where the treasure is, I think there are a few ways to get to it. I thought at one time there is/was one way in and out but no longer think that way considering.

          BTW, you pass 3 not 2 locations. Contradiction?

        • MajinKing,
          You say there are no shortcuts as Fenn stated but you don’t think you need 9 clues or even 5???

          • Hi Jake,
            No, you need all 9 clues to find the TC. But you only need to identify 3 locations to get close to it. And you need the last clue to actually retrieve it. IMO.
            — MajinKing

          • MK,
            I don’t think you need all 9 clues to find the treasure and I think Fenn said something along those lines.

            I guess it depends on your 3 locations and how do you define “Location”?
            Could be tiny, small, medium, big, large.

            All locations are subjective to one’s perspective.
            Subjective thinking rules here.

    • Majin,
      Happy New Year to you too. How would you illustrate the ‘big picture’ as to what that is to ff? It is a broad term that could be understood in many different ways. Is it physical or metaphorical?

      Also, from your comment, you go from wwwh to the blaze by going through the hob. Though, hob is not on the map but the other two are clearly there, and then Brown is the name of a person. If it wasn’t on the map how do you guess it refers to a person between the other two?

      • Hi Oz10,
        Some believe that the “Big Picture” is metaphorical, but I think it is physical. You can physically look at the “Big Picture”. Brown is a person, but the home of Brown is not a man made structure as most searchers believe, IMO.
        — MajinKing

  55. The “big picture” is the map.
    That is why any two locations can be “not far” apart, but “too far to walk”.

    HOB is on the map. Yes, Brown is a person. A well-known person in that area (not a Forest Ranger named Gary). And Brown had a home in that area.

    Just my HO.

    • If HoB is a person, then the person’s name must appear on a map as a geographic name. (no local knowledge, no history, no toponymy, all you need is a map and the poem and a knowledge of geography)
      A “well known person in that area” violates the local knowledge ATF unless the name is on a map.

      mBG

      • Brown, as a color, would be an adjective. But FF made it a pronoun by capitalizing it. The person’s name does not need to appear on a map as a geographic name. We are not looking for the person, but their home.

        For example, one definition of “brown” refers to people of brown skin color, i.e. Hispanics.
        https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/brown

        Then we look up “Hispanic”, and wikipedia has an interesting sentence:
        “While originally the term referred primarily to the Hispanos of New Mexico within the United States”

        And click the link to “Hispanos of New Mexico”:
        “The Hispanos of New Mexico … are an ethnic group primarily residing in the U.S. state of New Mexico, particularly Santa Fe, Taos, Española, and throughout Northern New Mexico, …”

        So, could this not be an area on a map that is the home of Brown that does not have the word “brown” in the name?

        We have so many people that are analyzing every word, definition, nuance, and astronomical alignment that might possibly be somehow related to a word in the poem, or book. Yet they ignore the history of the area they are searching. FF’s favorite book was a journal of a local trapper. I think he knew about other famous people in the area who were involved in the history of that area.

        https://www.findagrave.com/memorial/61438728/joseph-bernard-brown
        https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jardine,_Montana
        https://geyserbob.org/gate-jardine.html

        • Nice thinking Lori…
          You forgot to list at least one…
          I think Lisa will jump in here with link to Brown’s Camp on the Madison.

          • Thanks, Dal.
            I have discounted the Madison due to two things FF has said.

            I will have to search for the exact quotes, but most of you are probably already aware of them.

            1. FF said he has not been back to West Yellowstone since 1950.
            2. (I think it is in the preface to TFTW?), he describes walking in the creek near Baker’s Hole, how much he loved that place… and he has never been back.

            I will look for and link the quotes when I find them.

          • I have two notes on the 1950 quote:
            Isaac Cole podcast 5/8/2017: “The last time I was up there (Yellowstone and West Yellowstone) was in 1950.” 13:06

            FENN: “Because I spent 19 of my first 20 summers – three months – in Yellowstone, or West Yellowstone, but the last time I was up there was 1950.”
            –On the Road with Charlie – Part One, 5/8/2017

            And the other is FF reading the preface to TFTW:
            Here’s my preface. “I put a small, rubber dingy in the Madison River a few miles from West Yellowstone Montana and fished downstream to Baker’s Hole. That part of the river was in the quietly forgotten western edge of Yellowstone Park. There were no roads, no trails, and no rangers to tell me that I wasn’t supposed to do that. The river distance was about ten miles, and the best fishing was in the bends where the water turned greenish deep and beautiful. The small boat containing my camping gear was tethered to my belt and as I leisurely walked in the quiet river, I spent three days there casually casting my fly and enjoying the solitude. The river experience, it cemented my connection to that special country and I promised myself that someday I would make that trip again. That day never came for me and my disappointment still casts a lonesome shadow across the Madison River. For me now, it’s just too far to walk.

          • Hi Lori: you misunderstood the context of Forrest’s answer in “On the Road with Charlie” about the last time he was in West Yellowstone. He’s been there plenty of times since the 1950s. What he hasn’t done is spend an *entire summer* there since those annual family trips when he was a kid.

        • Dal: Brown’s camp is on the map, so there is no issue.

          I’m only talking about Brown referring to a local person named Brown. The person named Brown, if his name is not on a map, is local knowledge or history, and therefore not a good solve.

          Lori said “Yet they ignore the history of the area they are searching” which I say they should do, for good reason.

          Lori said: “Yes, Brown is a person. A well-known person in that area (not a Forest Ranger named Gary). And Brown had a home in that area.” which I am saying is local knowledge if Brown’s name is not on the map.

          Lori: it is difficult to follow the logic you use when you switch from a person’s name to people who are brown. Those are significantly different examples. I specifically said that the HoB cannot be the home of a specific person named Brown based on local or historical knowledge only. The name must appear on a map. Brown’s camp is a classic example being a home of Brown on the map that is not a structure. I have made no comment on the validity of associating groups of people who are brown or other wordplay that Fenn may have used.

          Again, redundantly, I only commented on your use of a specific local person named Brown who is well known locally, but whose name does not appear on a map.

          mBG

          • The way that I found this Joe Brown was by finding the Joe Brown Put-In on the Yellowstone River on a map. There is also a Joe Brown Picnic Area, and Joe Brown Creek… all found on the map. So I asked myself, WHO is Joe Brown? My research, (all online from the far reaches of the Black Hills in South Dakota), brought me the links I posted.

            I also found a post by a fellow searcher who was BOTG and talked with a local ranger who told him that Joe Brown had built a cabin in Yankee Jim Canyon. And the ruins of a cabin can be seen on some maps of that area.

            My point is that you don’t need in-depth local history knowledge to find these things. Just keep your eyes open for things that might help, then do some research. FF loves history, so it makes sense to me.

        • Zap your post does give a plausible explanation to the first quote, however it does nothing to explain away the preface in too far to walk.

          It also offers no explanation for this gem from Forrest

          5/17/2015
          “I doubt that a volcanic eruption under Yellowstone Lake would blow the treasure chest to bits, no matter the odds, but it might spread a lot of beautiful cutthroat and lake trout around the country side. F

          Forrest is very specific with his words here and even addresses how remote the chance of an eruption actually is. Yet he still states his doubt that the explosion would have an effect on the chest. Logic, nature and science all day that an eruption would destroy the chase and the cheat. I’m sure Forrest is not only aware of this but also is the reason he is so specific with the quote. People can deny it all they want but the treasure is not in Yellowstone. Mark it down, bet on it and take it to the bank, whoever finds the chest at whatever time will not be in Yellowstone. But only time wins that fight, we shall see.

          • To put the Yellowstone caldera blast into perspective as it relates to areas that Forrest spent time in, I looked into the following info.

            The blast, however unlikely, is projected to destroy a radius of 60 miles from site of eruption. I’m going to work with just this smaller area instead of taking into account the entire fallout zone, as that could stretch for a thousand miles or more and would likely include the entire u.s. portion of the Rockies.

            The most likely blast would come from one of two resurgent zones that have been slowly building up pressure. The closest one to West Yellowstone is approximately 20 miles away and is what causes the phenomenon that is old faithful. This dome is only another 10 miles in the same direction from the lake. The second resurgent dome sits just north of the lake and itself is only 30 miles as the crow flies from West Yellowstone.

            Not only does west Yellowstone, the areas of the Madison Forrest speaks of, its confluence with the firehole and all of Yellowstone lake fall into the 60 mile radius, they actually fall within a 30 mile radius or a blast half the size of projection. A 60 mile radius brings one well into Montana and Idaho which are obviously both not in the search area.

          • Double a: you’ve lost me. What post of mine are you responding to? I’ve never said the treasure chest is in Yellowstone National Park. I think that would be as dumb a place to leave treasure as leaving it on Native American land.

          • Zap – I respect your posts here and you have lots of insight, but I have to disagree with your comment on Yellowstone being “as dumb a place to leave treasure as leaving it on Native American land.”

            I know there have been many debates on what type of land the treasure may be found on, private, BLM, Reservation, etc., but to me, it makes most sense to be where the least likely amount of “change” to the area could take place and of course the least amount of “legal” issues. “X” private, Indian Reservations, and maybe even BLM, etc. as I think that land can be “repurposed” when needed.

            That to me leaves a National Park as a very strong contender. Ah, but the legal issues. Knowing what you know about Forrest thru his stories about his life adventures, since when do you know him to play by the “rules”. Or at best, to play mostly by the rules. He’s a Maverick, remember.

            I think Forrest sees a National park, National Forrest or whatever as land “owned by the people”. So in his mind, “how dare you tell me I can’t leave a treasure here for someone to find.” I’m sure he would have everything in place to cover a find in such an area.

            Plus I don’t know about you, but if I did find the treasure on such land, I’m going to do EXACTLY what Forrest told us to do…tarry scant with marvel gaze, just take the chest and go in peace. Then after sitting with it for sometime, I can decide where to go from there. Something tells me Forrest may have just those “special” directions in place for us.

            But of course, this is just MO. You may very well be correct. 😉

          • Zap, your response to Lori seemed as though you were making a defense for Yellowstone. And now that you say you were not, I guess I’m just as confused by your post as you were by mine. So I still stand by what I say but if it doesn’t apply, disregard.

          • Gersey
            Nice logical land usage response. I like your explanation of thought process. But I think Forrest made it a lot easier for us to locate the specific type of public lands.

            If you own too far too walk, open it up to the map. On that map is a list of 5 types of public lands in ascending order. I do not think it’s coincidence that the first form, the very top word, is also written in gold lettering. When this is over, the chest will have been located on land controlled by The Bureau of Land Management.

          • Hi Double a: ahh, so you were referring to my response to Lori about Forrest not having returned to West Yellowstone since 1950. My only point for her was that YNP/West Yellowstone area couldn’t be ruled out based solely on the “On the Road with Charlie” quote. Dal provided a good link with a lot more in depth discussion on that subject.

            As you know, West Yellowstone itself is not in the Park, so my attitude toward hiding the treasure in or near that town is a completely separate issue from doing so within the Park. (But no, I don’t think the treasure is in or particularly near that town.)

          • Double a – I just ordered TFTW today! Interesting observation on the land listing. That’s what is both so fun and so maddening about this chase…..so much is up for interpretation. We shall see, we shall see, we shall see….. 🙂

          • Double a,
            BLM is not a word and the color is yellow not gold from my perspective.
            There is only one acronym that fits on that map.
            United States Forest Service.
            He worked for them and his 1st name is in it.

      • Hi meBigGuy,

        I might not be correctly understanding your position, but it seems to me that you think knowledge of local history is not required and a detriment rather than a benefit.

        I disagree completely. I think too many searchers are ignoring the history and the people of days gone by in their search areas.

        And anyway, Joe’s name is on the map right there and then again a little further below.

        Happy New Year.

        • Didn’t Forrest say ” if I told you What Brown was you would go right to it.” ?
          He didn’t say if I told you Who Brown was……….
          Right? Dal? I’m going by memory.
          I’ve thought about this alot. Not person… more Place. Thoughts?

          • I think the exchange was, someone asked “Who is Brown?” and FF said, “if I told you that you would just walk right up to the treasure.”

            or something like that, but I don’t think it was a “what”.

          • Hi Lou Lee: full transcript for you:

            Jennifer London (reporter): “In the poem, which you say has these nine clues, there are references to water, there’s references to Brown’s house. Who’s Brown?”
            FF: “There’s references to wood.” Jennifer: “But you didn’t answer my question. Who’s Brown?”
            FF, smiling, “Well, that’s for you to find … if I told you that, you’d go right to the chest!”
            Link, 10:40 in. Judge for yourself if you think Forrest is being serious:
            https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ipvIGaVt7C8

            Now, compare with Richard Eeds radio show exchange on (5/29/2015):
            Eeds: “Okay. Um, how much does it weigh?”
            FF: “The gold in the treasure chest weighs 20.2 troy pounds. And the chest weighs forty, uh, twenty-two pounds. So the whole thing, I think, is around 42 pounds. It was heavy enough that I made two trips to hide it. I took the gold in one time, and then I took the treasure chest in the second time.”
            Eeds: “What kind of shoes? What kind of footprints did you leave? What kind of boots did you have on?”
            FF: “Well if I told you that, you’d go out and find it.”

            Do you see a pattern?

        • First off, I’m the first to admit all of this stuff is debatable and the first to admit I’ll use what I need when I need it. I’m not trying to be difficult/critical, just trying to logically present my views in a positive way. Also, I’m quick to admit when I’m wrong and adjust accordingly.

          BTW, Joe Brown is all over the maps, so that’s not an issue.

          As for local knowledge and history I present the following ATF’s:
          ************************************
          Mr. Fenn, Is there any level of knowledge of US history that is required to properly interpret the clues in your poem. ~Steve R
          No Steve R, The only requirement is that you figure out what the clues mean. But a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help.f http://mysteriouswritings.com/featured-question-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase-treasure-hunt-toponymy-or-geography/
          ******************************************
          Is any specialized knowledge required to find the treasure? For instance, something learned during your time in the military, or from a lifetime of fly fishing? Or do you really expect any ordinary average person without your background to be able to correctly interpret the clues in the poem? ~mdavis19

          “No specialized knowledge is required mdavis19, and I have no expectations. My Thrill of the Chase book is enough to lead an average person to the treasure.f ” http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/
          *********************************

          Q. When you wrote the poem, did you start with the first clue or the ninth?

          A. ” I knew all along where I wanted to hide the treasure so I didn’t need a map or any information to write the poem. Everything was in my head. It took me a while to get the wording exactly how I wanted it. Counting the clues and hiding the chest came later. It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, at least in their mind.”
          https://thefenndiagrams.com/q-a-with-fenn/fourth/
          IMPORTANT NOTE:: He said he did not need ANY INFORMATION, it was all in his head.
          **************************************************
          Mulligan, “…I’m assuming that if an unemployed guy in a pickup truck is driving across from Texas to have a look you don’t necessarily need to have local knowledge… local geography knowledge.” Fenn, “no, …”
          https://youtu.be/XmRex5DRfCc?t=9m24s
          *************************************
          just sayin’

          mBG

          • In my opinion, you don’t need any specialized knowledge going in to find the treasure. You just need to be able to listen. I think that the poem is an extension of Fenn’s memoirs and he has us walk through a world he lived and has created for us to experience. I do think that these experiences do lead to learning some specialized knowledge tho. In essence he teaches you all you need to know. And just like the younger version of Forrest we meet through his stories, you don’t need to be the person who remembers the most they hear, you need to be the person who does the most with what they see and learn along the way. Take a chance, go in blind but maximize potential.

          • I think we might all have different ideas about what is or is not “specialized” knowledge. If all we need is the book, the poem, and a map, (and no other knowledge), then we should be able to see and recognize the “home of Brown”.

            To me, that would rule out brown trout, brown people, brown or grizzly bears, etc.

            You all have given me much to think about. Thank you!

          • Hello meBigGuy …

            Thanks for the quotes from Forrest. He said no specialized knowledge and no knowledge of history. He said that geography might help.

            It’s interesting to me that some posters are doing the exact opposite of what Forrest instructed.

            They’re using specialized knowledge and/or history, yet ignoring the significance of geography.

            As a group, searchers have been doing this for years.

            One of the reasons the chest has not been found, in my opinion, is that searchers use only those Forrest quotes that justify searchers’ predetermined solutions. Yet searchers act like they know more than Forrest when those predetermined solutions diverge from other specific quotes Forrest has made.

            Ken (in Texas) 🙂

          • mBG & Ken (in Texas),

            IMO Forrest has created a conundrum of sorts with his response regarding the need for US history to correctly solve the poem.

            Why?

            ge·og·ra·phy
            /jēˈäɡrəfē/
            noun
            noun: geography – the study of the physical features of the earth and its atmosphere, and of human activity as it affects and is affected by these, including the distribution of populations and resources, land use, and industries.

            This definition sure sounds like history is an active ingredient in geography.

            That being said, I should also point out that the question, like many others we have seen before, provided Forrest an opportunity, one that answers ONLY the question asked, which was U.S. history.

            What about world history? After all, he traveled the world in the Air Force and war in general has had a huge impact on GEOGRAPHY per the above definition.

            Pinatubocharlie

          • P.Charlie;

            Definition of history:
            his·to·ry
            noun
            the study of past events, particularly in human affairs.

            The definition of geography that you posted:
            noun: geography – the study of the physical features of the earth and its atmosphere, and of human activity as it affects and is affected by these, including the distribution of populations and resources, land use, and industries.

            History seems to focus more on specific EVENTS, whereas geography has more to do with the land itself, and the impact humans, as a whole, have on that land.

            Since Forrest likes geography and archaeology I can see where he would focus on geography vs. history. If he came across an old Native American village or camp site. He would be interested on the site, and NOT on a particular event that occurred at that site.

            To me, that is why I think that he says no to history, but yes to geography that includes the impact that humans have had on the land. JMO – JDA

          • F has expressed his love of history from what I remember.

            Here’s a quote that is similar to the history q&a…

            Forrest, What’s the minimum number of clues that we need to solve to find the treasure, assuming that we follow the clues in order? Serge Teteblanche Just one Serge, the last one. f

            I don’t think f is saying we only need to solve the last clue to find the tc. Just like he didn’t say knowing some history might help. Imo

        • Zap – “references to wood” sounds a bit like “Reverence for Wood” (Eric Sloane). “I took the gold in *ONE* time…” (not first). Thanks for the recent transcripts…quite helpful for clarification. Happy New Year!

        • Thanks Zap for posting the transcripts!
          Hopefully you will see this not sure where on the thread it will post?
          Really thank you again for all responses.

      • F has never ruled out some history knowledge of the correct geographical area would be helpful.

        • Being helpful and required are two different things.

          When f threw in a comprehensive knowledge of geography might help he opened the door to the possibility of history helping as they go hand in hand.

    • Hi Lori,
      As I posted to Oz10, the Big Picture is a physical entity that you can look at. But it is not a map. Even though Brown is person, his home is not on the map. You have to guess where Brown’s home is located from the Big Picture, IMO.
      — MajinKing

  56. TBNPUYC , JHLandWH , all have to do with the HOME of Brown , the poem don’t say we go up the creek or go to heavy loads or water high , it just say’s these things are FROM THERE [ below the home of Brown ] I believe i know what and where the poems HOB is but I will not see HOB or water high or even heavy loads when I go to look because the end is ever drawing nigh [ left ] just before I get to these places . so you ask , HOW DO YOU KNOW THEY ARE THERE IF YOU NEVER SEE THEM ? , Well , GE , a map is not much help . ALL IN MY HONEST OPINION

  57. What is a Brown animal that lives in a HOME? Not a buffalo, might be a BEAVER, AKA Brown Beaver home, he builds himself, and it must be where???, near WWWH IMHO.

    If ff repurposed/reused/recycled a term for WWWH from what it was originally, and that was a spot in NM Game and Fish regs, he probably mean to riddle the heck outa a stick and mud built place, actually an Adobe Home is made like the Home of Brown Beaver, and he live in one in Santa Fe, NM, in fact a lot of NM does too…we all need a little imagination now if a buffalo is ff’s favorite animal, what does a beaver paddle up? A CREEK find a place like that and warm waters..in a basin, or halt? When you woke up today did you not use a SC Book 237 to put Warm Waters in? Did you look in the mirror housing that basin? Heck a kid might get this before us…

    TT

    TT

    • Did anybody else read SC Book 219 and wonder why a requiem for a wreck? Mirror housing is what a basin sits in, but why a requiem? Perhaps it would help for us to take our Winter Thoughts and write em down, since we have been full of Chaos for so long, we need to stich er Embroider this picture back together. SC 209 comes into focus and each one of these SC books since are revealing to some here, SC Book 246 has a message about a Beaver which Cynthia’s video reveals, do kids like Brown Beavers? Lets take each SC Book and do a right click on the pictures and copy them, enlarge them, or rotate them and try to tell or make sense of these for Winter Thoughts. TT

      • My plan is to write a fowolling, a II to Winter Thoughts by Tom Terrific, maybe even use stick figures, like ff or BOX elder maple leaf stolen from the White House Lawn by John Charles somethin? Is there a family tree in my new II? Who or what wood this tree reveal? I will try in February 2020 because hind sight is always twenty/twenty and ever since Once Upon a While it is gettin better for Mr Terrific…

        TT

      • You reminded me of the movie “One Flew Over The Cuckoo’s Nest”.

        (sniff sniff) I smell confirmation, or at least a tease that is similar.

        And don’t get me started about beard(s).

        There may be some pearls of wisdom around here. Reminds me of
        June Cleaver. As always, IMO.

    • Hi TT
      Do you think a beaver home will be in the same place for 100 years?

      I like the “Adobe Abode” idea for “Home of Brown” (like saying “hair of gold” for blonde hair). But the warm water designation used by NM is not unique to NM Fish & Game. I found similar references in Pennsylvania, Delaware and Michigan. Just FYI.

        • Lori if I said my home was in Leadville, CO, my home could burn down, my home was or is Leadville still like ffs place in Temple..
          TT

          • I agree with you there. It is the place, not the structure, that is the “home”.

            Fun Fact: I used to hunt elk with my dad all around Leadville. It is the U.S. city with the highest elevation… 10,200 feet.
            (Well close, 10,156 to be exact).

          • Why would ff post 3 crosses, Spanish Crosses in SC Book 241? WHY call an antique Wash Basin a Spanish Bowl. WHy is a Beaver Creek in a Cruces Wilderness Basin? God put it there for the Beavers Ardi to build a Home of Brown.

            TT

          • TT: I’m sure you know there are basins in all four search states. And as I posted in chat on AGK last night while you were on the phone with Toby, Garfield is NOT the president on the dollar coin near the center of the chest in SB 241 — it is clearly 100% Ulysses S. Grant. So you can’t use that as supporting evidence for your theory.

          • Lori have you read Winter Thoughts by Tom Terrific on this blog? Pleased do and understand why I think in 1970’s when ff moved to Santa Fe this was the latest and greatest thing to see, https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=m-GD4vhA3No

            This is why I made the video above and why it had 3500 hits the day ff released SC Book 241, why is 880 yards to the target from where Mr T took the shots..

            TT

      • Even Montana has a warm water license and has required such a license for a long time.
        “The license, established in a law passed by the 1999 Montana State Legislature, is helping to fund a new multi-species fish hatchery near Fort Peck Dam. Resident and nonresident anglers (except resident youth under 15, resident seniors and resident disabled anglers) will need the license …”

    • TT;

      Why NOT a buffalo – “Oh, give me a HOME where the Buffalo roam”? Don’t Buffalo have a HOME range? Aren’t there two specific stories about B`uffalo in TTOTC and TFTW? Doesn’t he mention Buffalo skulls in at least two SB’s? Doesn’t Forrest use one of his famous alliterations to bring attention to Buffalo – “Big Buffalo Bulls…”? Just sayin’ – Aren’t there BIG Buffalo herds in Yellowstone Park and surrounding areas? So, why exclude the possibility that hoB COULD relate to Buffalo? JDA

      • Cause it doesn’t directly relate to my first clue possibility. Does it for you?

        • “Relate to your first clue possibility”? Yes, No. No direct relationship to WWWsH, but from WWWsH, I take the canyon down, and NOW I arrive at my hoB – So, WWWsH and my hoB are connected by my “canyon down.” JDA

  58. JDA, I like the way you are now seein this thread we might embroiderer this picture together but only one can have a correct solve and the place where we each see that this poem leads us is different, not wrong, just separated by geography, I want you to see a natural sculptured Bison, as large a a Buffalo, which in 2017 I showed to Forrest at Fennboree and he dropped down to look at my I Pad and with shock on his face told me something that I will not reveal here until Winter Thoughts II, I wrote Winter Thought in March 2017, how many SC Books did Forrest Post in March, April and May of 2017 Many but not as many as the past 3 months? Why? That too might have a stick figure logic thread running through it..If a river runs through it, and a Train Track runs through it why not a Border runs through it, see page 9 and check for ittty Biddie lines that run deep in it, it is wood in Spanish..

    There are only 3 latitude borders in 4 States we need to examine.

    TT

    • Can’t wait to read your next installment – sounds interesting.

      I have a “Running Buffalo” in my search area. Bigger than real life. Quite impressive when seen from one particular spot. The “wonder” of nature boggles the mind at times. Happy “ThiMking” TT – JDA

      • There’s no way of knowing with technology. Try as I might I haven’t been able to find a way to prove anything through a porthole. Although I think that’s a flawed method to begin with. Anything other than both is half measures and results in nil. I verify on the ground and in person, although I can see alot of people are going to spend the winter, spring , summer and fall chasing others tails.

  59. I think about the trail. I wonder if anyone else is going there. Unless there’s a newcomer I simply don’t see someone get there before me, not putting in the actual work. Imo. Either it’s real or isn’t either the solve I sent Fenn is right or isn’t.
    I know I’m just anxious to put the darn thing to bed and pull the rug on arm chair pundits and meeting quarterbacks talking about how it was. Fennborie, whatever. Never went, was busy actually hunting treasure. I think I can be excited and or selfish. I might not have been perfect but if I was a bomb I would have done the trick the first time put and my picture confirms it. I only didn’t go the length because I think something good and better then so treasure can come from treasure hunting, unlike the people trying to profit off others work. Yes I’d sell my work, but I’d half charity any day of the week. Because I know what it’s worth having done it.

    • Good Morning Seeker,

      I think it can, and should.

      My understanding is that we must solve the clues first, then walk confidently to the chest, take it and go in peace.

      In order to do that, we must be able to solve the clues before we leave the house. Therefore, I believe we MUST solve HoB before heading to the search site.

      I think the Blaze is the only clue that we may not solve until we get there and see it for ourselves. I think the Blaze will be our “X marks the spot” but we won’t see it, or maybe not recognize it, until we are there looking at it.

      This is just my guess. I reserve the right to be wrong.

      • Lori: 100% agree. I personally would extend Forrest’s Canasta remarks beyond WWWH to include hoB and the blaze — particularly if you live far from your search location. But that’s just me.

      • Correction — I guess I shouldn’t have said 100% agree, Lori, lol. I think you must solve all the clues before you leave home.

        • I agree with the premise that certain aspects and clues can be discovered from the comfort at home. However I completely disagree with the idea that you need to solve the entire poem before botg, if that is indeed what your saying zap. I think that perhaps the final formula that leads to the win can be put together at home. But beyond that I believe that Forrest has created a puzzle that actually requires multiple investigations on the ground before we are ever able to put the entire solve together.

        • Hi Double a: having been on physical searches every year since 2015, my opinion has evolved on the necessity to be onsite in order to discover the answers to clues. We all know that if you don’t have WWWH, stay home. But workable WWWH’s can be found easily in all four states, so that is hardly a sufficient excuse to mobilize.

          There is certainly value in making a reconnaissance trip (if budget allows) to get the lay of the land. You will obviously see things in person that you cannot discover sitting behind a computer screen. And you may even see something that doesn’t register with you at the time you’re there, but finally clicks (possibly much later) and ties in with a clue.

          But where I diverge in my thinking — probably from most searchers — is that I don’t think anyone will ever *solve* a clue in person that couldn’t have, or shouldn’t have, been solved from home. It’s like asking yourself, “Self: be creative. Solve this right now!” Those insights simply aren’t going to come while you’re in the field, staring at your latest failed solution. I think a period of failure acceptance has to transpire before your brain is freed to ponder new alternatives.

          How many of you searchers have had those “ahha!” ideas during their long journeys home? Haven’t you ever wondered why you can’t conjure up those breakthrough leaps while you are physically there?

          Anyway, Double a, I actually agree with your closing sentence: the chest is not going to be found by a searcher on their first trip out. Newbies (myself included) always think it’s going to be easier than it is (never mind the vanity of the unstated premise that they are smarter than the tens or hundreds of thousands of people that have preceded them). But multiple failures are a great teacher.

          • The ah-ha’s all come to me about an hour after arriving back home.. exactly.

            I agree with your comment. You see things that don’t mean much at the moment but make more sense later on when your brain lets go of the last failed general solve and you make adjustments. So it is important to notice as much stuff as possible on your trips.

            For me, it always turns out that the path is longer and I need to go further; but that is all dependent on having a solid anchor at wwwh.

    • Hello Seeker. I believe it is possible, as long as we have the correct starting point of “Where warm waters halt.”

    • Hi Seeker;

      For my “Big Picture Solve” – I once had a structure that could be found on a map – until Forrest said that hoB was not associated with a structure – I was then in a pickle. I found a land feature that became my hoB. I would NOT have been able to identify it as hoB without being on site. So, in this case, no, one need be on site to identify it.

      For my “Small Area Solve” I have a land feature that I spotted on Google Earth before I spotted it with BotG. I later found a land feature that COULD be hoB that is not visible from GE. So, another yes, no answer to your question. Just how it has worked for me – JDA

    • Seeker,
      It’s unclear what you mean by “known” but IMO, NONE of the clues or other information in the poem can be “known” with 100% certainty. We will KNOW we’ve guessed correctly the moment we have eyes on the chest.

      Joe

    • Seeker – I have given that a lot of thought thru the search, and I keep coming to the conclusion that yes, it can (and I think) has to be known in order to proceed with the rest of the clues to the chest.

      HOB is my cue that it’s time to park and get BOTG. I also believe it will not be very far from that point on and that some of the clues there after are reference points to “confirm” (ha!) your are at the right HOB and not necessarily places you have to be. So after HOB, you are looking for the Blaze.

      I always think about the comment Fenn made (paraphrasing) that he walked back laughing and asking himself if he really just did that. To me that implies “going” somewhere other then down a road and HOB seems to be the most logical place to start.

      Just my opinion. But what is yours?

      • Geysergirl,

        OK, Let me throw a scenario at you.
        You’re trying to solve the clues and you have a search area of interest. It just so happens you got that part correct.
        Now, you can’t figure out WWsH or some canyon of what the @!#%$ NF,BtFTW means, but you have something on a map that yells hoB, because its on a map. So you go to that place and continue on, and low and behold, you’ve discovered the blaze and found the chest…. without possibly 3 clues solved?
        I have a hard time with that process because we don’t really need many solved 9 clue references. And one of the reasons a point to point process has flaws. It allows the above scenario to be plausible… no need for WWsH or possible other clues solved.

        • I definitely see where you are coming from, but here is why that scenario does not work for me.

          WWWH….It is a fact that Fenn pretty much told us flat out that (paraphrasing) you must have that part correct or you got nothing. There’s a reason he said that and I believe it is because of clue 2 or 3 (depending on how you see that stanza) NFBTFTW.

          It is my belief that IF that riddle (I see it as a riddle) is solved correctly, it will give you a definite distance from WWWH to the “put in area” BELOW the HOB. I have a hard time thinking we are just suppose to “guess” at how far “too far to walk” is. We need something more precise and for that reason, I think it may even be more important then HOB. If you know precisely how far to go down the canyon from WWH, then maybe HOB is obvious at that point. I’m not even certain you need to BE at HOB, just know what it is in reference to and what is meant by “Put in below.”

          Does that make sense? And again, I could be WAAAAY off with my thinking. But that’s why we’re all here. To throw ideas off of one another. IMO 🙂

          • Geysergirl … Seeker is throwing at you (and other readers) a hypothetical scenario that contradicts Forrest’s statements. Seeker’s apparent objective is to justify his long, long held opinion that …

            “… a point to point process has flaws. It allows the above scenario to be plausible”.

            Since Seeker’s hypothetical scenario violates Forrest’s clear statement that we must find the correct WWWH before we can find the correct HOB and chest, the hypothetical that Seeker uses is bogus.

            How many times does Forrest need to remind searchers that the correct sequence is >>> first, solve WWWH, then solve the second clue, then the third, and so on …?

            Seeker doesn’t like point-to-point searches, and will go out of his way to try to discredit them.

            But Seeker’s argument here presumes that you can just accidently happen on to the correct “search area of interest”.

            So what? You still need to identify the correct WWWH. In this bogus “scenario”, what “yells HOB” to you is almost certainly not correct because you have skipped over WWWH.

            I wish I had a dime for every post Seeker has made to try to discredit a point-to-point search, a legitimate way of looking at the poem which is entirely consistent with Forrest’s verbal comments.

            Ken (in Texas)

          • Like it or not ken {TX}, If we can see on a map any or all physical clues in the correct area, the scenario stands.

            It would be capable of having a good idea of what a later clue might be [ be it whatever clue ] and not solve the prior clue{s} … and take a change on going there [on site] and continuing on. The point to point method is flawed for that very reason because the method itself violates fenn’s many comments… must have WWsH.

            You said; Since Seeker’s hypothetical scenario violates Forrest’s clear statement that we must find the correct WWWH before we can find the correct HOB and chest, the hypothetical that Seeker uses is bogus.

            The reverse engineering Q&A may imply just that scenario… *being sure of hoB without having WWsH.* IF that is what was meant; that in of itself violates the *must need the first clue* idea.
            ** However, I think fenn was emphasizing that we do need WWsH to even find hoB, by asking the question; IF you’re sure of hoB *why be concerned about WWsH?*

            The thing that has been consistent is; everyone leaves WWsH to go to another hopeful clue reference they manufacture from maps / GE [the point to point stomping method]. I have suggested the only place to be at is WWsH.. it might be where the entire poem plays out.. and possibly the only correct way to see hoB… ground view.

            You have said; WWsH and hoB can be miles apart. The Q&A scenario on reverse engineering suggested; *being sure of hoB.*
            Since, in your theory, hoB can be located miles away from the first clue with other clues in between [a point to point method / theory]… those clues can be eliminated IF hoB can actually be located, as the Q&A suggested, without WWsH…. that’s flawed theory in my book.

            My theory require the knowledge and being at WWsH. There is absolutely no other clue a searcher can be at for an observational solve / method to unfold. It won’t allow a searcher to look for later clues unless they are on site.

            I’ll leave on this note; deciphering a clue is great, but not very helpful… we have heard about the many who have been on site with the first two clues solve [possibly the first four] and gone by everything. The common factor that has been read about /talked about on the blogs, over and over again is; they all seem to use the precondition *traditional* point to point stomping method [some even driving out clues or use of alternative transportation] of 9 different places.
            How’s that working?

            So here’s my question; If and when a clue is deciphered for it reference fenn created it to be.[ be it a land feature or not ] what exactly does “follow” imply?

          • Ken and Seeker – I guess the bottom line to all this is what has been said over and over…..until someone has indulgence in hand, we will not know if any of our ways of going about understanding and solving the poem/riddle is correct. And that suits me just fine. After all, it is the “Thrill of the Chase!”

            I for one, really enjoy the thought process behind everyones “solve.” I find it fascinating that ONE POEM can conjour up so many different ideas. The way I look at it is at this point (even after 10 long years), we are all still equal in either being really close or really far from a solve because it is not in anyones hands (that we know of anyway). All IMO.

            Good luck to you both and remember, this is all suppose to be fun! 😉

          • Ggirl… thanks for the well wishes and right back @ ya’ !
            I’ve had a blast over the years and a good part of it is interacting with some of the participants. It’s fun tossing around some ideas… and who knows one thread may just bust it open for someone.

          • Above, Seeker wrote:

            “Like it or not ken {TX}, If we can see on a map any or all physical clues in the correct area, the scenario stands.”
            ……………………….

            Seeker …
            … not if the clues are unlabeled on the map.

            In my opinion, no map contains the label “Brown” as it relates to HOB; no map contains the label of any of the nine clues.

            Searcher must decipher the meaning of WWWH, and then find an unlabeled place on the map where this place could exist. Ditto every other clue.

            Ergo, searcher must, absolutely must, find WWWH first, as Forrest directed. Otherwise, there is virtually no chance of finding the correct HOB.

            And Forrest has said that searchers can in theory find all or nearly all such places, using a map at home.

            I find Forrest’s two statements here to be reasonable and logical.

            Ken (in Texas)

          • Ken {TX}

            I agree that nothing will be produced without WWsH. As you said; fenn made that very clear. In my mind that is rule #1.
            LOL as far as unlabeled maps [such as GE satellite pics before the option button of adding labels] Ya won’t get many who will agree to that concept of a mapping tool.
            But I see what you’re saying. Basic; the poem is your labeling after it’s been deciphered.
            One problem… Even if you can come up with the correct reference to WWsH, there are many of them throughout the RM’s. In which case you must know the location / area to actually match the correct one, first and foremost.
            Or spend a lot of time guessing, traveling, etc. and attempting to match the other clues to that same area / location.

            That still sounds like a poke and hope, and process of elimination [with very little confidence], even if many areas can be discarded beforehand. For this to happen [ to achieve the “correct path” ] a search must know of the “location beforehand” [of where the clues can be found].

            In this case [theory], what is more important? WWsH or the location of the search area?
            Now to the other point… is it still not possible to have the correct “location” to be at, have WWsH wrong, but discover another correct clue and finish the rest of the sequence?
            Scenario; you just happen to have “hoB” and your “put in” correct, even though you started at the wrong WWsH in that area. Yet, from hoB and on everything else is correct. Is that not a plausible scenario? Especially if the area of searching is rather large, being miles in dimensions on a geographical scale! That makes WWsH unnecessary should a later clue be correct and so on.

            This question has been offer before, but I think it’s worth asking again; Is the poem’s WWsH one of a kind, type [example only, a waterfall] or different types [ example only, how waters stop or change in some manner]?
            And is it the same for all clues; such as hoB. Is the poem’s hoB one of a kind or many of the same?

            I like the concept of an unlabeled map, thinking. Goofy, Logo, I and others bucked heads about this many times. I take the concept of seeing the land [even from mapping tools] as fenn would have on site, or how [ for example ] Meek or Russel would come to an area and need elevation to get their bearings for an passage through an area.

            ** fenn didn’t use a map in remembering the layout of the land he’s describing for his poem … my guess is, labels on a map don’t assist at all. Common sense tells us what woodlands, lakes, waterways etc. look like on a map / GE.

            Down below, Dal made a comment and posted a few comments from fenn. I agree with the concept that none of the clues refer to a structure. I’ll go as far to say, anything man-made… including roads, rails, dams, etc. { I just felt like adding that here because it kinda relates }.

    • Joe,
      LOL, I tried to keep the question simple…

      Sure, absolute (known) is not guessing or hoping… I get what you’re saying.
      So allow me to clarify.
      Can we predict correctly what hoB is from a map, birdseye, (GE)
      Or is hoB only known of when seen from ground level or maybe a better way of saying it is;
      is it the only way it can be seen property?

      The idea of confidence, imo, isn’t about deciphering the clues at home to what they represent in the field, as much as, having the idea of what is needed to be looked for and recognize when doing the field work.

      Example; can a clue, such as hoB, depict something that can only be seen while on site? However we should have some idea of what it is we are looking for, beforehand… Instead of manufacturing a land feature from a birdseye view.

      I mean, IF hoB would take us to the chest and seen on a map / GE correctly…. What’s the problem we all seem to be having at clues 3&4?

      • The problem seems to be that the clues up to and including 3 and 4 are not being deciphered correctly. That’s about as basic and clear cut as it gets. Just because folks figured out where to go and got close… doesn’t mean they had the clues 100% nailed down. Or not…

        • Ken,
          Sure… if we just stop there.

          But solved means solved. They may have not known [ for whatever reason fenn felt ] but the clues were indicated in order and “solved.”
          It seems clues 3 and 4 is what confounded all. Which brings me to my point, on many levels regarding the poem.
          Can clues actually be mapped out at home right up to the blaze-?- seeing them as fenn did in his mind?
          He said he didn’t use or need a map [ i assume that means GE as well ]… he recalls them from memory by being on site prior… ground level.

          • Seeker… thanks for the response. Most folks seem to agree that hob is a clue that should be known prior to botg and not something that a searcher learns after arriving at the starting point. I fall in that category as well.
            Fenn has repeatedly said that folks have figured/deciphered/blah blah the first two clues since early in the chase. Whatever that means exactly in Fenn’s mind is subjective at best. The fact is… folks read the poem and/or TTOTC and somehow ended up at the correct starting point… and he has indicated some of those folks seemed to not know it because they left the poem/went by the treasure. Short story…. they did not get the 3rd or 4th clue because they did/do not correctly know what the poem says in regards.
            To argue that the 3rd clue probably needs to be deciphered in the field vs. at home based on an assumption of Fenn comments and the glaring failure rate is just as, if not more shaky than the popular trend. There are many quotes/comments from Fenn that seem to imply that a searcher must figure out what the clues say and subsequently a searcher can then go right to the treasure… starting at the first clue.
            There are very few comments that seem to counter that premise… but they do exist. To me that indicates that the path is best followed more precisely in person than navigating strictly on paper either with a map or using GE. When Fenn said that GE cannot help with the last clue… was he saying that it could help with the other 8 ? Good question… however, he did not say it would not. Kind of similar to the *not ready to say* mindset isn’t it?
            Here’s the thing… **Sure… if we just stop there**. That comment pretty much sums up what I think the major problem is. Folks are not digesting completely [using imagination] as to what the importance of that particular starting point is… and then correctly deciphering what the next clue says before dancing off into the sunset on a wild goose chase. Heck…. according to Fenn, many folks have been there[first two clues] and have had ample opportunity to do exactly what you are implying. Have they? I would say that a good number of folks that actively search don’t Segway through their supposed solution without analyzing, observing and thinking about it while they are present. Maybe some are that pressed for time or so sure of themselves… but I bet most backtrack and look around for something that may further their ideas. I think in essence folks are already doing what you are suggesting… but nobody has known what to do next or look for after the second clue because they have not deciphered that next clue correctly.
            There is that *maybe* 3 or 4 clues comment. To me… that just keeps it real for me in terms of Fenn’s integrity. He has always implied that most folks do not tell him where they are searching [exactly]…

          • Ken,
            Again we agree on a lot of speculations and ideas…. The one thing that seems to be ‘overlooked’ is the process of continuing from WWsH. As you said; folks scanned around, backtracked, etc… however, what was there mindset?
            I harp on the solves presented over the last ten years and all have the same process [stomping].
            In a response to Oz about “move with confidence” most are physically moving through a maze like set of land features. If that one doesn’t work, try another one and go to it, line of thinking.

            Does *move with confidence* mean walking out different places / points?
            Or as Loco pointed out; a Geographical place{s} can be 5 feet apart.

            I’m simply using Move as;
            2~*make progress*; *develop* in a particular manner.
            I’m attempting to developed a manner that doesn’t use the precondition notion that some / if not all searcher are seemingly thinking the challenge is a traditional point to point follow the dots exercise.
            Now to hoB… I never stated we can’t have an idea of what it is… my full point is, can we see it correctly on a map-?- and know it for what it is, beforehand?
            The concept is simple… its the same if you look at a cloud while sitting in a field vs. seeing from above in an aircraft.
            We know it’s a cloud [as a hypothetical clue example], but what exactly is it we need to see it as?
            Land features do the same… IF someone is look for that type of idea and looking at it from the right spot.
            Is this where imagination kicks in?

            And I hate rubbing salt…. when it is seen properly, do we go to it, or *develop* in a particular manner.
            Basically, do we use the architectural design and *build a solve,* or just walk by it’s pieces and hope we find a blaze later.

            later; doesn’t sound like having “been wise and found”

          • Seeker;

            You say, “I harp on the solves presented over the last ten years and all have the same process [stomping].”

            I can agree that “take it in” can mean to view. And that “Put in” can mean to stop looking (restrict your view somewhat)

            I can even agree that “From there it’s no place for the meek, the end is ever drawing nigh” can be a
            “Seen” area, and even that the end is ever drawing nigh COULD mean the end of the viewing is about to end…and MAYBE the “Sloggin” begins?????

            My question is – At what point in your visual process do you actually put boots on the ground? Hasn’t Forrest said something about the need to physically be at the site of Indulgence in order to retrieve it?

            This seems logical to me. I can’t “Wish” it to come to me, I HAVE to go get it.

            So, again, when in your process do you put BotG to go get the treasure. As you say, no need for point-to-point slogging, but somewhere between the WWWsH viewing spot and Indulgence, you MUST go to it. When do YOU go to it? Just askin’ JDA

          • Funny stuff Seeker ! I think the overall mindset has to be a resounding sense of … uh oh. Again… a searcher can’t know what to DO or where to GO next if they don’t know what the next clue means as Fenn intended.

          • JDA,
            One part at a time;
            ~I can agree that “take it in” can mean to view. And that “Put in” can mean to stop looking (restrict your view somewhat)

            Restricting, Nope. Been there.
            Think of “put in” as the same as “take it in” [ a view ] or “take something in” as to view it …keeping the perceptive of observing as to where you “look” to. If the poem is meant as; being observing in a direction, we need to know that direction { canyon down }. Then we need to know what it is we need to see that is “not far” away, “but too far to walk” to… {hoB}

            At this point you have to ask, do I go there or not? I think stanza 3 says not to. [ in an observation solve, “from there” is still at WWsH. And, I think the actions of searchers going by everything and the chest tells me we may not want to physically leave the clue fenn says we need or we have nothing.

            Sure, I guess you could go to that idea of a physical place to ‘physically put in’ But would it be reasonable to think others with the correct first clues would have done the same? So, if we stay contestant in the method of observing… “put in” means to [by one of it meanings and usages] to look [ below ].

            LOL but now we need to know why fenn may be directing / instructing us to do that… well, are we not supposed to be looking for the blaze?
            My thought is; we just found it by seeing it from WWsH. Not to mention the old comment; if you knew [hob] blah blah blah…
            The next thing is to ask; how the blaze shows us the where the chest lays in wait? do we go over to it?
            Ok say ya do and you don’t find the chest. is it the wrong ideas, or the wrong blaze, or a screwed up solve… or did you literally leave the poem by going there, before the blaze can show you where to go? [this involves stanza 3]

            If the latter, you may find yourself reading stanza 3 a bit differently than you have been. The problem is; this idea only produces 4 or 5 places [not far apart], with the rest of the clues being instruction. But that is only a problem if you personally want 9 different places to go to.

            You asked; My question is – At what point in your visual process do you actually put boots on the ground? Hasn’t Forrest said something about the need to physically be at the site of Indulgence in order to retrieve it?

            Answer is two folds for this theory and method;
            1. The above explains the process. known [ hopefully correct ] beforehand.
            2. Being at the correct WWsH… [botg only get you to get to where that is at.] the blaze does the rest.

            LOL while ya’ll might have your favorite first clues, I’m still trying to figure out what it refers to… I’m not budging until I have the “location” pin pointed.

            The path will not be direct for those who have no certainty of the location beforehand.
            It’s not a matter of trying, it’s a matter of thinking.
            People figured the first couple clues and unfortunately walked past the treasure chest.
            They didn’t quit, they left the poem.

            Ok JDA, I’m thinking your blaze idea is only known/concluded of much later than the second stanza, is that correct? And in your theory you need to move through places in stanza 2, right? And in stanza 3 you now still think you have to traverse more places to “find” the blaze, correct?

            Then why is; “If you been wise and found the blaze” past tense-?- compared to present tense in stanzas 2 3?
            Followed by present tense of “Look quickly down” for your quest to cease?
            That jump in tense should give pause for thought… it did for me anyways.

          • JDA,

            I’ll add… the theory and ideas I present are nothing more than the attempt to “best adjust” My idea is, fenn doesn’t seem too traditional to me… why would his challenge be?
            I think the idea of the reverse bicycle is saying just that; to “think the right thoughts” you have to leave common / traditional behind and adjust what you see in the poem.

          • Ken,

            What something means doesn’t always reflect what you do with it.
            Those three little “take it in” have basically two meanings… I’m just using the other one.
            I see the poem as having to build from it, what makes it tick, how does it show us anything… other seem to see it as a hop skip and jump action.

            I’m really ok with either method… I just see one falling apart with no one knowing anything even when clue are indicated and on site { imo, that is a method problem }. What I’m really looking for is the dang “location” this all takes place at.

          • Seeker;

            You say,”Ok JDA, I’m thinking your blaze idea is only known/concluded of much later than the second stanza, is that correct?

            Yes.

            And in your theory you need to move through places in stanza 2, right?

            No – As I stated stanza #2 is all visual – Lookin’

            And in stanza 3 you now still think you have to traverse more places to “find” the blaze, correct?”

            No, Stanza #3 contains meek place (can be seen – no need to walk there)
            The end is ever drawing nigh – Seen, no need to go there.
            No paddle up your creek – observed – no need to go there
            Just HL&WH – observed, no need to go there.

            Stanza #4 “If you’ve been wise and found the blaze”
            This involves your shadow theory – correct shadow seen only at sunrise on Summer Solstice day – shadow (the blaze) points to where Indulgence is.

            “Look quickly down” – Follow the path of the shadow.
            “Your quest to cease” – shadow will point to where Indulgence rests.
            “But tatty scant with marvel gaze” – Look quickly, the shadow will move away from needed spot./
            “Just take the chest and go in peace” – Go to the indicated spot.

            It is at THIS point that “I” move – not before.

            Stanzas #5 and #6 detail WHAT to look for at the spot that the shadow pointed to in order to get to the EXACT spot.

            Just how I interpret YOUR Small area solve idea.

            I could be WAY off – JDA

          • Hi Zap. I don’t always comment on posts anymore. I saw yours and thought it was on the mark and similar to some thoughts posted by others. At any rate… I like engaging with Seeker because it keeps me connected to the thoughts and ideas that have taken a long time to mature in my theoretical viewing of Fenn’s poem/challenge in general. I can see both sides as clear as mud! It truly becomes a matter of personal choice in terms of how we each perceive the logic in our decisions.
            Once again… I don’t think a searcher can base any theory on how to carry out anything until they decide on what/where they believe the first clue is. It all hinges around that *important possibility*. And almost certainly… I believe the reason everything has gone afoul after the second clue… is because the 3rd clue has not been correctly solved. Have a good one Zap….

          • So, what is up with the 1st 2 clues where several have got.
            Are those clues linked together geographically? I think so.

            PIBTHOB may not be linked to the 1st 2 clues.

            Home of frown… 🙁

      • Seeker,
        Thanks for the added context. I’ll add some comments but probably succeed in only muddying the water, but here goes.

        During the winter following my first search season, I formed the opinion we needed to resolve the entire poem before any BOTG search – until this comment from Forrest (2/4/2018 MW Six Questions):

        “It helps to know something about Rocky Mountain geography when making plans to search for my treasure. Rocking chair ideas can lead one to the first few clues, but a physical presence is needed to complete the solve. Google Earth cannot help with the last clue.”

        I was actually very encouraged by F’s response, because I always had nagging doubts with my deductions relative to the latter part of the poem. I still believe most of the poem should be resolved and that only some information in the last stanza requires BOTG to fully understand.

        IMO, we CAN achieve some level of confidence in our discernment as we progress through the poem, and the poem’s non-clue information is as significant in building that confidence as the clue information. I hope the following fortune cookie axiom is a decent conceptual metaphor for the interaction of information within the poem:

        One hand washes the other, both hands wash the face.

        In any case, I doubt any two searchers even come close to ‘Seeing’ the poem in the same light. Clear as mud – right?

        Be well.
        Joe

        • Joe,
          I can agree with most of your assessment…
          I like that comment you posted and will summarize a few more.
          …(situ) In theory, but not in practice…
          …can not get closer than the first two clues…
          …IF you’re sure of hoB….why be concerned about WWsH…

          Yes, *why be concerned*? of the clue we need or we don’t have anything, might as well stay home, right?
          So, to my point; it seems apparent the first two clues can be found on a map… so why can’t Little Indy or anyone else not get closer, IF in theory the clues reference can be found on a map [ seemingly all of them ]
          Why can we, in physical practice, locate the 8 – 9 clue and be that close on paper [map] AND in the field IF we can actually find them correctly from a map?

          I’ll add, and not unlike clues 1 & 2, fenn combined the idea of 3 & 4 stumping all, right?
          Why not just 3 or all of the remaining clues? Is clue 3 related to clue 4 so closely, they are inseparable?

          So, if several, more than several, many, have indicated the first two clues [ regardless if they knew or not, they went there for that reason, they surmised the location of those clues / clues… what stumped them all?

          This is my concerned about your posted fenn’s comment and related others… they all seem to imply a need to be at WWsH [ and more than likely the canyon down reference ] possibly for the reason we need to see the next physical clue properly as fenn seen it when *thinking* about the location~ without using maps.

          With those comments and others, does hoB appear on a map? It just might… maybe… possibly…
          IF we knew what it represented from the angle fenn remembers from being there himself.
          Hence the question; can it [hoB] be seen correctly from mapping tools-?- *known before proceeding to the search site?*

          Most so far have answered in the affirmative.
          I have to wonder why we need to be on site at the first clue if clues that have physical mapping references and found prior from home…
          That would mean clue references 7 – 8 and maybe 9 can be found as well [IF they refer to anything in the physical world as a land feature] LOL why would we need hoB at all, IF, we could get lucky and find HL and /or WH just by knowing the search location?
          Something is not making sense at clues 3 plus 4. And stanza 3 doesn’t seem to be any easier in finding anything on Maps / GE correctly.

          ~A physical presence is needed… and apparently early on in the clues [clues 3 plus 4]
          WHY?
          In theory…. but not in practice…

          • Seeker,
            Regarding LGII, what if the value in Forrest’s response is not relevant to what she can’t accomplish, but relevant to what she can? What if we simply consider that she CAN solve the first two clues with ONLY the poem, a good RM map, and good english skills, and use that non-poem information to guide our thoughts as we ponder only the first two clues? This alone may give us some level of confidence as we deduce only those clues. After all, if the LGII can get the first two clues with limited resources, it would seem to be a slam dunk for those of us who aren’t limited in resources.

            Regarding incorrectly deducing the other clue(s) in the first stanza and/or the reason searchers get the first two clues correct but go past the others (paraphrased), I believe there are a number of possibilities. The one reason I happen to believe is most probable has to do with the post to which you responded.

            Let’s use a specific example (note: this example does not explain the issue limiting the LGII): A searcher correctly deduces the first two clues but misses the following clue(s) in the second stanza – why? Let’s assume no BOTG at this point, so the perspective is entirely virtual/armchair. My best guess is the searcher is incorrectly deducing one or more non-clue phrases in the first two lines of the second stanza, and that places them in a virtual position that makes it impossible to correctly deduce the next clue. IMO, proper perspective is another critical element required to derive the “correct solve.”

            Here is an alternative way to consider the axiom in my previous post: I like to think of the poem as a puzzle, but I don’t think of it as a puzzle with only nine pieces, I think of it as a puzzle with many more than nine pieces.

            Of course, like every searcher, I’m just best-guessing here, so FWIW.

            (original) Joe

          • Regarding my 1/3/20 1:15PM post, the second paragraph pertains to the poem’s second stanza, not the first. Sorry.

        • Hi Seeker,

          “…IF you’re sure of hoB….why be concerned about WWsH… Yes, *why be concerned*?”

          You wouldn’t be — because you already solved it. If hoB can ONLY be solved if you have previously solved WWWH, the question becomes moot.

          “So, to my point; it seems apparent the first two clues can be found on a map…”

          Yes. Even on the map of the entire U.S. Rockies that Jenny specified was the only map Little Indy had. (Per Forrest’s recent interview with Kpro, Mike and Cynthia: “I take you literally!” Jenny was specific about the type of map Indy had.)

          “… so why can’t Little Indy or anyone else not get closer, IF in theory the clues reference can be found on a map [ seemingly all of them ]”

          Little Indy can’t for the reason specified above: her inadequate map. Nothing stops the rest of us.

          “Is clue 3 related to clue 4 so closely, they are inseparable?”

          It’s a good question to ponder, since Forrest has never said anyone solved 3 clues — he jumped right to ~maybe~ 4. Personally, I think figuring out #4 once you’ve got #3 is much easier than figuring out #3 if you’ve got 1 & 2.

          “So, if several, more than several, many, have indicated the first two clues [ regardless if they knew or not, they went there for that reason, they surmised the location of those clues / clues… what stumped them all?”

          Obviously clue #3. Which is a helpful discriminant: if a searcher has a solution where the 3rd clue is easy and obvious, it is almost certainly wrong.

          “With those comments and others, does hoB appear on a map? It just might… maybe… possibly…”

          IMO it does.

          “I have to wonder why we need to be on site at the first clue if clues that have physical mapping references and found prior from home…”

          You don’t, AFAIC. But: “It is not likely that anyone will find it without following the clues, at least in their mind.” In effect, that’s what we’re all doing when trying to work through the clues from home.

          “That would mean clue references 7 – 8 and maybe 9 can be found as well [IF they refer to anything in the physical world as a land feature]”

          If they do, then yes — by that same logic.

          “LOL why would we need hoB at all, IF, we could get lucky and find HL and /or WH just by knowing the search location?”

          I believe Forrest purposefully designed it so you can’t — to prevent shortcuts. That’s the whole point. If I tell you the search location is Los Angeles, and “heavy loads” is a bridge, how does that help you? The clues work together — in sequence. One leads to another leads to another. If you break the chain at any point, it’s like missing an ingredient or an instruction in a cake recipe: will you achieve your goal?

          • “Begin it where warm waters halt and take it in the canyon down…” Let’s use the “Take it in” to mean “VIEW” rather than physical travel.

            From the WWWsH spot – look down canyon.

            How far do I look? Answer: “Not far, but too far to walk.”
            “Not far” can mean a short distance – say, less than two miles.
            “But too far to walk.” “Far” can mean deadly or dangerous – So, Not deadly, but too dangerous to walk… so drive this short distance – Walking on the road might be too dangerous.

            Again, how far do we drive/walk? “Put in below the home of Brown.

            As we look down our canyon (less than two miles) we spot something that could be a hoB – park just below that spot.

            “From there it’s no place for the meek, the end is ever drawing nigh.” Find a place a meek person might now want to go, and you will be nearing the end of your quest…”

            “There’ll be no paddle up your creek,
            Just heavy loads and water high.”

            Find a small creek – maybe littered with big boulders. The creek originates higher up a hill.”

            That is how it works out for me through stanza’s #2 and #3 – Kinda. Can’t give away too much – 🙂 JDA

          • Meant – .” Find a place a meek person might NOT want to go, and you will be nearing the end of your quest…”
            Sorry – JDA

          • What if hoB isn’t a clue? I know he indicated that the blaze is a clue (something about people driving down the road looking for the blaze because it was one of the clues) but did he ever say that hoB is a clue?

          • MM: no, as far as I’m aware Forrest has never confirmed that home of Brown is one of the nine clues. In my own solution, home of Brown actually isn’t a clue — but “Put in below the home of Brown” is.

          • “I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map.” ff

            Forrest has said that there are 9 clues in the poem. Whether or not in the quote above Forrest was referring to all or some of clues, I think that it is at least clear he is referring to more than one clue needing to be married up to a place on map. That is, only finding WWWH on a map and then stomping your way through the other 8 clues on a BOTG trip seems to go against what he’s saying in this quote.

            Could he be only referring to the first two clues that Little Indy could find on a map of the Rocky Mountains? Maybe, but I don’t think so. I get the impression from this quote that a good portion of the clues, but not necessarily all, can be found on a map before a BOTG trip. I’ll call it a majority of the clues, say 5/9 at least, but that’s just my opinion.

          • Blex,

            I agree overall. I agree because I don’t think all clues [9] are physical references of a place, spot, feature, etc. [call them what ya will]
            An example; the last clue can’t be found on GE { I assume any mapping tool }
            Too small?
            Or is it a direction or instruction?
            Or something needing to be viewed from the ground? [another-words, an aerial view doesn’t depict it as the same, as fenn may have wanted it as a clue]

            So, IF only a majority of the clues could be found on GE/ a map… it’s quite possible hoB might be one clue that needs to be seen while on site. At the very least, seen as intended to be seen… the way fenn remembers the special place in his memories of it.

            Of course these opinions come from many comments and logically thinking how searcher can be on site and walk by the seven remaining clues… I think they did exactly what many, most, have stated here thus far… they found something on a map and went to it. They may have even indicated what they were looking /hoping for… but did they see it properly?
            When looking down from GE or a paper map version, the landscape / features are not the same as viewing it from ground level, right?

            I’d like to ask another question; We have been told there are many WWsH in the RMs, told there are billions of blazes, and somewhere in-between lays the CD HOB Meekville, something about a creek, HLnWH…
            How many of those are there in the RM’s?
            Featured Question with Forrest Fenn on The Thrill of the …
            Feb 23, 2018 – No Jill, there is only one home of Brown in my poem. f …

            So if there is only one… can it be seen on a map from a birdseye view properly, or only proper at ground level… Not Far from WWsH and the CD?
            I still have to keep in mind fenn remembering this location while creating the clues with no use of any mapping tools… ground level, as it was, when he visited the location he knew of, and later where he wanted to be at and hide the chest.

            I’ll say it again; It’s possible that there might only be 3 places /features with two of them repeated later in the poem for different reasons. That would still make 5 different clues but of the same prior clues… because we may need to understand something different about them.
            Knowing the place for the first time, idea?

            Some of you guys are coming back with great reasoning… but the confidence idea doesn’t seem strong enough of an argument that hoB must be known of beforehand on a map / GE.
            LOL How can we really measure confidence? IMO the confidence is more about where the search is at, than the clues themselves… especially IF there are many of all the clue’s references.

          • Seeker – You bring up a lot of good ideas and I can’t confidently make a argument against your idea that the home of Brown can’t be found on a map, or that some of the clues may be separate references to the same geographic location on a map. I personally tend not to hang my hat on either of those ideas, but I can only offer gut instinct as my reason, which we all know isn’t worth a whole heck of a lot standing on its own.

            Forrest’s “analyzed and moved with confidence” comment has always been one of his quotes that I’ve held a bit at arm’s length, simply because Forrest is biased by the fact that he knows exactly where the treasure is hidden and probably believes that he has given ample hinting for a searcher to go right to the exact spot. The best level of confidence I can ever seem to drum up is confidence in a small enough area that I can head out and look around for a blaze, and I suspect that may be the best level of confidence any searcher can reach before a BOTG trip (but I could be wrong).

          • “The best level of confidence I can ever seem to drum up is confidence in a small enough area that I can head out and look around for a blaze, and I suspect that may be the best level of confidence any searcher can reach before a BOTG trip (but I could be wrong).”

            Blex – I agree with you on this. The line ” If you’ve been wise and found the blaze.” I know a lot of people are questioning the past tense here and I think some interpret it as meaning you had to have been “smart” and found the blaze before BOTG, as in another solved location if you will in order to move with confidence. Perhaps. But I always interpreted that line as meaning “if you’ve been “smart” enough to get the previous clues correct and now are at the right location to start looking and consequently have “found” the blaze, look quickly down……But as always, I may be incorrect in that thinking.

          • Seeker, you commented above:
            “I still have to keep in mind fenn remembering this location while creating the clues with no use of any mapping tools… ground level, as it was, when he visited the location he knew of, and later where he wanted to be at and hide the chest.”

            If this was indeed a special place from his childhood, then who’s to say he didn’t first discover it by way of maps? I think he may have spent many hours as a kid looking at maps and exploring the Yellowstone area. And in doing so for so long, he had a “mental” map of many places to recall at will. This is just speculation, of course. But I think a very feasible scenario.

      • Seeker, I responded to your message above. But the message was posted as a response to Fundamental Design.

        Once again, the message board is lacking a “Reply” option under some responses.

    • Seeker I think it should be known, otherwise how to move with confidence when knowing some got the first two and didn’t find the chest. Has anybody figured it out yet? Fenn said some MAY have figured out the 3rd and 4th clue but he wasn’t sure, that sounds like they didn’t know what the home of Brown was with certainty but only by proxy.

      • Oz,
        You bring up a very good point. The way I can try explain it is with the word “move”
        Not unlike the word{s} follow, or take it in, or put in below or place….etc.

        Move;
        1~*go* in a specified direction or manner; change position.

        2~*make progress*; *develop* in a particular manner.

        Which usage of “move” [with confidence] do you adhere to when you read the poem, Oz?

        I have suggested that some may have, not only deciphered what hoB refers to, but may have actually be at it… here’s the problem [in this case]… are they supposed to ‘be at it’?
        Solving what a clue *is* might not be the only thing we need to understand. Folks have solved WWsH, But they didn’t know?
        What didn’t they know?
        LOL Hi, forrest, my WWsH is this and my CD is that… ok, but what do they/we do with that/those deciphered reference{s}? Just say Ha! found ya, and go to the next-?- or do we “follow” the clues in a different manner, than hide and go physically seek each one?

        We may see the same clue reference, but we may acting out the solve wrong.

        My last comment is not directed to you personally; but no one has shown me a solve that is not created by the idea of going physically from one point to another.
        All I’m saying [ with hoB, especially ] do we need to go to it, or use it-?- to make progress?

  60. My take Seeker.

    HoB can be figured out before going to botg search mode, but understanding the “below” part and the “put in” part is better understood by “seeing on sight” of it’s “actual” location. Now the location-(place it is at) of hoB is on a map, but there’s a but here also, the “actual hoB” itself is not worded with the name “Brown” on a map.

    Not sure if that helps, or helps in being confused.

    This is just what I have come across.
    Bur

  61. I picture, in my mind, a location that is very special to FF and is secluded enough that no one will accidentally trip over FF’s rotting carcass. Yet, the area has a road not too far away, and maybe a hiking trail that is 500′ away. People hike that trail regularly, but a few searchers have gone off trail and got within 200′. So what did they miss?

    The clues must be solved in order, there are no shortcuts. FF has said that there is no other way to his knowledge (and he knows the location better than we do!). I picture something like a box canyon with a hidden entrance. It is the only way in and out. Hidden doesn’t necessarily mean covered over with camouflage (although possible). It might just not be visible due to line-of-sight issues.

    So you find WWWH, the canyon down, and HoB and you are in the locale. Close, but not close enough. The Blaze will be the indicator to show the way to the entrance.

    So, again, this is just in my mind, even if you find THE HoB, unless you also solve the preceding clues you will be going in the wrong direction, and therefore won’t be able to find the Blaze. If somehow, you accidentally stumbled upon the Blaze, it would not be a neon arrow saying “Go HERE”. In fact, one might not recognize it at all. It could be something simple, but in the context of all the other clues and the area and path you have been led, then you could see it for what it is.

    Just my thoughts on it.

    • Hi Lori,

      I would agree with your first and second paragraphs.
      I see many searchers consider hoB as being right above the area of where you put in. “Below” is the key word for this line. I say this because you can put in below hoB, as far as elevation, and hoB can be anywhere from wwwh or anywhere along the canyon down trail.

      I for one have the hoB location not far from wwwh but at a higher elevation above it. So when you travel the canyon down trail the put in place is lower then the elevation of hoB.

      Lori, you do have it right about a secret entrance to a box canyon that you go “in”.

      Good luck,
      Bur

      • Hi Bur,

        I totally agree that below refers to elevation and not “south”.

        Another thought I had was in how we read that line:

        “Put in below the home of Brown.” sounds like a command to “Put In”.

        What if it is not a command, but just a description of a way-point? As though it is something you might pass as you “take it in the canyon down”.

        And as you stroll (or drive, row, fly ) past the “put-in” that is “below the home of Brown”, then you come to where it is “no place for the meek.”

        From this perspective, the first clue (per FF) is “Begin it….” and continues as one sentence until you reach the period. That sentence has two commands, “begin it” and “take it”. There are no more commands in the poem until you get to “Look quickly down” and “take the chest”.

        The secret entrance doesn’t have to be a box canyon. It could be a hidden ravine, a deer trail that winds around behind some rocks, etc.

        As a kid, I grew up in the California desert. There was a ravine like that and we called it “Lost City”. There were some small caves in the sides of the ravine and trails connecting the cave entrances, so we imagined natives may have lived there. Never found any arrowheads or relics. Just kids’ imagination, I suppose.

        There were several ravines clearly visible from the road, but if you didn’t pick the right one, you would hike right past Lost City and never find it. Even knowing that area very well, I missed my turn many times and would have to go back to the road and find the right entrance.

        One of the neighbor kids made a sign, a skull and crossbones on a piece of cardboard that we used as a flag (blaze?). We put it so finding the right ravine was a little easier, but not so easy that “outsiders” could find it.
        That experience is how I imagine the search area to be. So now it is trying to marry the clues to the map.

        • There are no more commands in the poem until you get to “Look quickly down” and “take the chest”.

          Lori, that is a wrong assumption.

        • Lori I think that – take it in the canyon down – means to start at the bottom of the canyon – begin it also means to start – where warm waters halt and its below home of brown – to me wwwh is south of hob at the bottom of the canyon where it all starts- and go west to hob—–frank

          • sorry lori I meant to say that wwwh is east of hob at the bottom of the canyon— my bad

          • Hi Frank,
            I followed what you were saying all the way up to “east/west”.
            I understand some people think “below” can mean “south of” and I don’t disagree that is possible. “Begin it” obviously means “start”, and I can see that “canyon down” could mean the canyon bottom”…

            But how did you get the east and west directions?

          • Lori – – I got east and west – by the word below because – south or north is not below so to me its got to be east and west —frank

          • OK… but you said “- where warm waters halt and its below home of brown – to me wwwh is south of hob …”
            That’s why I was confused where east or west came from.

        • Lori,
          Sure, it sounds like a command; but what it is that we’re being told to do?

          IT; pronoun; the situation or circumstances;

          Take it in; Take (something) In; include or encompass something….fully understand or absorb something heard or seen; observing.

          Put In; If you put in an amount of time or effort doing something, you spend that time or effort.

          From there: From; from that time, from then on…

          Place; being in a situation.

          The End; a final part of something, *especially a period of time,* an activity, or a story.

          Tarry scant; Tarry; linger….Scant; a short amount of

  62. Seeker: I’m replying at the top level since the comments were nested to deep to replay in context. I just wanted to reply to you use of Fenn’s little indy response to justify (incorrectly, IMO) that later clues cannot be found on a map. I’m giving away what, IMO, is a BIG clue. I want to point out that “closer than the first two clues” does not equal “only solve the first two clues”. Why do you think he mentioned the Appalachians? If you were in India, what would be different about the Rockies and the Appalachians?

    • If your talking miles difference, Big guy, the answer is obvious if I was in India to either Mountain range. [If that was where you’re heading. I’m not sure.]
      fenn could have pick just about any range in the eastern hemisphere to make that point…I have another thought. What do both mountain ranges have in common?

        • Blex….Mileage difference from India… I get it.

          What about the kid from fenn’s father’s home town in TX… he seems awful close. Closer than most in the hunt living in the USA and surely closer than little Indy, right?

          Blackriver ~ kinda. I was reasoning that both ranges have a watershed that diverts waters the same way… east and west water sheds.

  63. Seeker, I think you already know what ATF I’m going to post.

    Mr. Fenn,

    You have said to read the poem and read TTOTC to help solve for the 9 clues. We all know there are many options to choose from regarding, Brown, hoB, wwh,and blaze hinted at in the book.

    My question is, “In the book, do you also, in a more subtle way, tell which is the correct answer to one or all of the above?” ~BW
    No I don’t madam, sorry. f

    His answer pretty much sums it up. Unless you can show me in some “non-subtle” way where f has flat out supplied that answer. (which we all know isn’t out there). The same thing holds true for the two clues we do know of.
    And really, if you can solve for any of them, individually, then doesn’t that change the minimum amount of clues needed to be solved to find the chest?
    I don’t see where a searcher could possibly know what the answer to hoB is when f has not supplied the answer to it. We don’t even know if it’s a clue, and probably isn’t.

    There are some searchers that have line 7 as a distance, then line 8 the “put in” from that distance. I don’t believe in that, but I can see where that may be correct. (except for the fact that you would have solved more then the one minimum needed), but I can see that scenario because: The answer to hoB is not there, so the ATF does not come into play. They would basically be seeing some reference to hoB when they got there. Now, if they can see on a map their path, and they could get there distance to their “put in” place, and near that place is say a Brown’s cemetery, or a Brown’s home, or whatever, they can “GUESS” that the Brown in question is that, but they wouldn’t know unless they found the chest. As obvious as their answer would be, it still. at best, would be a guess.
    So Seeker, the answer to your question has to be “NO”. If you did, then this ATF would be B.S., or at best, you are just guessing, which in turn also means “NO”.
    There is no way that a searcher will know for sure what f means by hoB. Period. Everyone can give you their little scenarios of how they know or solved for it, but I think you know, as well as I do, that it’s just babble, because you cannot know for sure beforehand what hoB is, there is no answer to it. And that is fact.

    • The ATF just says that of all the HoB,’s etc hinted at in the TTOTC book, the book doesn’t give you a hint regarding which option (hint) is correct. But, HoB could be hinted at in the book, or not.

      More to your point, I don’t think ANYONE is saying you can know HoB beforehand in isolation. But, it might be possible to know it in context of the WWH,CD, NFBTFTW and NPFTM that fit around it.

      I’ll go so far as to say that if you don’t have an “on the map” geographical HoB in context with your other clue solutions/locations, then you should stay home (JDA will disagree). You better have a non-structure, named, map location that fulfills your interpretation of the HoB to put-in below (whatever that means to you).

      This ATF would not make sense if HoB were not on a map:
      “I would advise new searchers to look for the clues in my poem and try to marry them to a place on a map.” Forrest Fenn quote from Mysterious Writings Six Questions with Forrest Fenn Feb 4th, 2017.,

      and (paraphrased) that all but the last clue could (in theory) be solved before BOTG.

      mBG

      • BigGuy,

        Let’s have some fun… If others join in the answers will vary, I’m sure.

        How many physical references of features and/or places are clues… And… Is hoB a clue?

        I say 5, but two repeat for a reason.
        hoB is certainly a clue. I think its the clue we seek.

        • I would Hesitate To answer but I found this to be to intriguing And I would agree with HOB and it does repeat itself. The question to ask is how does HOB fit and what could it’s purpose be.
          Know I have to go pay my bill and my participation Will have to wait
          It’s cold out here.

        • I’d like to join in on this! Logic tells me that if each clue is a place on the map, then there would be 9 places/features. I’d like to ask my imagination, but it’s not ready to approach right now. In terms of HOB, I agree as well that it’s a clue.

        • Seeker: Being the opportunist I am, I’d say as many locations as are needed to make your solve work. I’ve not felt good about any duplicate location theories to date, though. To be honest though, I have never counted them. Rambling on, Forrest said to marry “the nine clues” each to “a place on a map”, which is difficult if you interpret the poem literally, and add the rule that locations must be points, not routes. For this exercise, I’ll choose to not require them to be points. I’m interested in whether routes should be considered locations (since it is difficult to get 9 points for 9 clues).

          Now, moving on, I get the following fuzzy results (Caution, I’m making all this up as I write):
          1. WWWH is a clue and point location.
          2. TIITCD is a clue, as is NFBTFTW but are they, literally, “locations”? Between the two you could say the canyon for the distance of not too far to walk is a route, so that is a location. (BTW, does that make 2 lines = 1 clue?)
          3,4 PITBtHoB is a clue (or is it 2?) and seemingly references 2 locations (the put in location below the HoB location), although you might not go to both). Or, it could be 1 location where HoB and the put-in are co-located/overlapping. Or, you could say only the put-in is a valid location as specified by HoB.
          5. NPFTM TEIEDN could define one route or two.
          I have one solve where , NPUYC (6, route) heavy loads (7, area), and waters high(8, point) are all separate locations on/near a connecting route you don’t take (because he said don’t paddle up that creek) or do take and search near waters high, depending on your mood regarding grizzlies.
          9. Then you get to the blaze (9), and look quickly down (10) (are those separate points)?

          Obviously my answer is logically inconsistent (all over the map, so to speak 🙂 and I cheated to get the blaze to be (9).
          Thanks for suggesting that exercise, it was interesting and I need to explore it further. Hopefully Dal won’t make this go away since it isn’t strictly HoB.

          mBG

      • I keep seeing references to this… and I think it is a misunderstanding… please correct me if I am wrong, but I do not believe FF said anything about HoB not being associated with a structure. He said the chest location is not associated with a structure, but I think the clues can be.

        • The following 2nd hand information is trusted by many:
          https://mysteriouswritings.com/mws-friday-five-forrest-fenns-home-of-brown/
          In Cynthia Meachum’s book is the quote of her talking to Forrest:
          “When I discussed the CCC cabin as being the home of Brown, he immediately said, “don’t you remember, I said it can’t be associated with any structure.””

          What he said was:
          “Mr. Fenn, when you said not associated with any structure did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits? Thanks, d.”

          “Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure. Google “structure” for more information.f .” http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

          To me, grammatically, “Yes … ” applies to the last phrase (“or just where the chest sits”) and not all 9 clues, but many others read it differently, and Cynthia’s quote supports their interpretation.

          mBG

          • MBG-

            I have a slightly different interpretation of that answer…

            Remember this was not a spontaneous answer from Forrest. Jenny collects questions and sends them to Forrest. Forrest chooses the ones he wishes to answer…He had time to think it through and write his answer out. It’s not likely he made any error or misspoke.

            In relation to Forrest’s earlier statement that the location of the chest is not associated with any structure, our d is looking for clarification and asks”
            “…did that mean all 9 clues or just where the chest sits?…”
            Note that d asks two questions…not one…
            First question is: Did that mean all 9 clues?
            Second question is: or just where the chest sits?

            Forrest chose to answer both questions with one answer: yes.

            So the answer to the first question: Did that mean all 9 clues?…is yes.
            and the answer to the second question: or just where the chest sits?…is yes.
            Forrest had time to consider how to answer this question.

            The confusion we experience as readers is that there are two questions which we believe are opposing and Forrest provides only one answer..
            So we try to interpret that answer…to our own benefit. But what if we don’t have to?

            It’s very possible that Forrest responded to both questions with one answer because the answer to both questions is the same..

            How can that be?

            Well…it could be that the nine clues and the hiding place are all the same. If that were the case “yes” would be the correct answer for both questions.
            Yes, the nine clues are not associated with a structure
            Yes, the hiding place is not associated with a structure

            It is possible in this scenario that Forrest was hinting to us that part of the riddle of the poem is that all nine clues are describing the same general location…

            Just a thought…

          • and a less argumentative interpretation would be that he was simply answering both questions with yes…because both answers are yes…but not necessarily related…
            Yes, the nine clues are not associated with a structure
            Yes, the hiding place is not associated with a structure

            and that’s it…neither the chest nor the clues leading up to it are associated with a structure…

            I think it has to be either the theory above or this theory…because Forrest had all the time in the world to answer those questions and he could have easily answered each individually…but he chose instead to provide an answer that he knew would start a bit of a ruckus..

          • Dal, thanks for your input on this. It is VERY helpful to have experienced interpretations on what was said.

            I get what you are saying, but to me, it looks like he ignored the first question and submitted just one answer:
            “Yes d, it means the treasure is not hidden in or about a structure.”

            For my own solve, I keep in mind that structures may not be there 100 to 1,000 years from now and the clue must still be valid. That doesn’t mean a structure cannot be there, just that the clue means that spot and not the structure, e.g. Brown’s House vs Brown’s Hometown.

          • Dal: I’ll take it even one step further — I think it’s not that *either* of your interpretations is correct, it’s that *both* are. Addressing your first interpretation, in comparison with the vast overall search area extending from northern NM to the Canadian border, the area encompassing the nine clues is likely minuscule. (Note: likely, not guaranteed. Nothing Forrest has said or written requires WWWH to be within the 4-state search area, or even constrained to the U.S., but I still think the most likely scenario is that all the clues are in the same state.)

            So when you suggest “… it could be that the nine clues and the hiding place are all the same,” on ~that~ scale they may well be. We don’t know how large an area is encompassed by Forrest’s carefully chosen words “associated with.” But what we DO know is that the clues are contiguous with each other, which is another way of saying the clues are all “associated” with each other. By marrying those two thoughts, it seems like we have a pretty good argument for none of the clues being associated with structures. And really, that would have been the safest choice for Forrest if he wanted to ensure clue longevity.

        • Lori,
          Dal and BigGuy gave some examples and comments.
          I tried to keep it simple[er]? But agree with their assessments.
          Many moons ago fenn stated the treasure is not associated with a structure [2013]. We all know it well…
          My question is; is it not true that ‘all’ of fenn’s created clue are ‘directly associated’ with [finding of] the treasure? It’s their sole purpose of *being created,* right?

          Another thing to keep in mind is; the RM’s are still moving, comment… and how that can have an impact on the clues in 3009.
          IMO, this deals with natural movement of land and land features over long periods of time… thinking down the road, idea, 100, 1000, even 10,000 years.
          I personally don’t see how man-made anything would be involved with the challenge. Well, except the book, the poem, GE, maps…

          Just sayin….

          • Thanks, Seeker,
            I agree. I also saw a post where someone quoted someone who quoted, etc… I think it was Cynthia, that asked FF about HoB, and his reply indicated that she should have known it is not associated with a structure. So, although not canon, there is that indication.

  64. seeker – ff has told us what hob is- when he gave us a clue- that said – that the place is near and dear to him – so take the BS out of your comment and you will find hob

    • Please cite where Forrest Fenn said HoB was near and dear to him. I have never seen such a statement, or even any way to eek that out of anything he ever said.

      • Big Guy – im not one to keep records – but im sure that he said that where he wanted to die – was at the place that was near and dear to him – he did not say at hob – if im wrong I would like to know that im wrong that would help me too thanks frank

        • Frank & MBG-

          One of the places Forrest mentioned that the place he hid the chest was special to him was on Jenny’s “Questions” pages. The one below is from July 5, 2014

          “Mr. Fenn, Did you choose the hiding location purely because it was special to you, or were there other considerations? (I’m not talking about logistics like transporting yourself there, ease of access, not being spotted). ~Michael Monroe

          Thanks Michael. The spot where I hid the treasure was in my mind from the time I first started thinking about the chase. It is special to me and there was never another consideration. I was going to make it work no matter what. In my reverie I often find myself stealing away to that place and I will always consider it to be mine alone.f”

          http://mysteriouswritings.com/questions-with-forrest-fenn-and-the-thrill-of-the-chase/

          We also know that the place he hid the chest and the place he intended to end his life are one in the same. One of the places he answered that question is on the same page as the previous quote. It is from July 7, 2014.

          “Is the chest hidden in the (exact) same spot that you would like your bones to be found, or is it a short distance away for reasons beyond your control? ~ Phil

          The spot is the same, but in less than two months I’ll be 84 and that means many of the things to which I once aspired are no longer available to me. I still anticipate, but I may be unable to grasp such a transient pleasure before my trail shows signs of growing too weary for the journey. To make that success would be the boldest move I ever made and to that end I just want it all the more.f”

          • Thanks dal – it helped me and im sure it helped others – that was nice of you to help — frank

          • You’re welcome Frank…
            and just an aside note…
            The last sentence of Forrest’s response to the question about it being a special place…
            From the quote cited in my comment above:

            “In my reverie I often find myself stealing away to that place and I will always consider it to be mine alone.”
            Which seems to share some sentiment with the first line of the poem
            “As I have gone alone in there,”

  65. Consider the “what if’s”. What if even one of the clues in the poem is out of sequence. Like you weren’t confused enough already. LOL.

  66. ken on January 4, 2020 at 1:21 pm said:
    “… I don’t think a searcher can base any theory on how to carry out anything until they decide on what/where they believe the first clue is. It all hinges around that *important possibility*. And almost certainly… I believe the reason everything has gone afoul after the second clue… is because the 3rd clue has not been correctly solved…”

    I think this is right on the money. I have seen so many ideas for solves on blogs and YouTube and as I am watching/reading, the first thought in my mind is…

    HOW IS THAT PLACE SPECIAL TO FF?

    Even if the clues fit perfectly, if there is no evidence that FF was ever there, it fails (IMHO).
    We are told the only tools we need are the poem, a map of the RM, and TTOTC book.
    I think a correct solve will have supporting evidence in all three of these tools.

    • With due respect a person never knows about where another person has been or what he has done. Even family doesn’t have a clue sometimes unless they were there. I think that rules out weather you can prove he was there or not. IMO.

      • Woody B. you are certainly correct about where people have wondered in their lifetime, what they did, and what effect those actions might have, I know from living in Northern New Mexico all my life that Native Americans were everywhere, signs of ancient man are everywhere.

        What we must understand to see the big picture possibility are those seminal moments in Forrest Fenn’s life that allowed him to spin this web of a poem that we are so easily tangled in and captured by. I believe that Forrest Fenn has always set goals for himself, like all successful people do, if I were to look at a few fact that IMP were revealed in his TToTC and Too Far To Walk Memoirs, I see a few pivotal chapters of a time where he escaped death and where he lost loved ones dear to him, a Laotian Jungle Chapter when he escaped death is called Jungle Wisdom, page 106 in Too Far Book, also that is the same number as the longitude where that took place, 106 degrees Longitude East Hemisphere, and the center of the Rockies, at Leadville, Co is 106 degrees Longitude West Hemisphere the other side of earth, that is in 1968. Next in his event time line would be his move to Santa Fe in 1970 something, loss of Skippy in 1978, his mom, his father, and his cancer in 1987, all these events like the loss of friend Eric etc. etc these are all tantamount to what I would call life changing but we must choose when ff found the special place and why it was worthy of being the only place for him to want to commit suicide or die on top of his indulgence, that place to me must be remote, yet doable for an older man or an ill person, he intimated that we would not want to ever search or go where an 80 year old with 22 lbs could not, but he knew and may have even visited it with someone else, possible his father when his dad may have been 80, that information was given to me in 2013 by the film crew from Animal Planet, they said “Forrest Father would know where he hid the treasure” and if anyone wants to verify it contact Moon Shots Productions, Eric or Dave, owners and film makers..

        TT

        • Question! Verify that Forrest Father would know. yes I agree that he would know . Fathers tend to know for there sons are the very extension of themselves.

          • I have considered the number of times Forrest has referenced graves, memorials and memories that he cherishes might hold the best clue to his secret Where, they are not clues but may be hints, in the recent SC Books, since 209 and all this Chaos began of posting up to 247, there is a thread embroidered into and through each, it is a common thread of remembrance, a place in the Rockies where an unknown event to us gave him a feeling, or a sense of déjà vu. Find that place by knowing where he was and what he knows about it from the past and you might find WWWH and the other 8 clues.

            TT

      • Considering the only real evidence that we are allowed to consider are the poem, the book, and the map, everything else is just supplemental information.

        So, for example, I would never consider the chest to be anywhere in Colorado. Why not? Because, although it is on the map, FF does not mention Colorado or any place in Colorado in TTOTC. So even if I had a clue from the poem, and it is on the map, I have no evidence he was ever there (from TTOTC), so how can it be a special place to him?

        Just my line of thinking.

        • Many things he mentioned could be in Colorado. Just to be facetious and make a point, he mentioned cows. Heck, the book contains so many rabbit holes that I’ve said (tongue in cheek) that your solve can only be good if there is no confirmation in the book. That would make it unique! Oh, I have to mention HoB since this is the HoB thread.

        • Lori, I responded to your comment, not in this thread but in the Odds n Ends thread, since my comment did not mention HOB.

  67. Sorry lori – I have to answer you way down here.- you said that you thought that wwwh was or is south of hob . im not saying that you are wrong with your way of thinking. But this is the way I see it means . if you are going north from santa fe and you get to wwwh at the bottom of a canyon it seems to me that take it in to mean that you turn there at wwwh the bottom of the canyon- canyon down – its not far but to far to walk to from wwwh to hob leaving wwwh at the bottom of the canyon where its below hob. Below also means to me to go up to hob after you turn . sorry but I hope you understand what im trying to say cause I don’t lol . — frank

    • frank;

      I have never understood your interpretation of”Down” as being “UP” the canyon. You again say, “wwwh to hob leaving wwwh at the bottom of the canyon where its below hob.” Ignoring the word DOWN, as you go UP the canyon to get to hoB. Can you please explain – Thanks – JDA

      • JDA – if you are at the bottom of the canyon at wwwh – canyon down – and you are going from wwwh to hob and wwwh is below hob you have to go up in order for wwwh to be below hob. that’s the only way I can explain it . thanks for the question I hope the answer helped— frank please reply if it did or it didnt

        • Well frank, we all see it differently – Good luck to Ya.

          Seems to me that you are making the poem fit your location, rather than letting the poem lead you.

          The poem says, “Begin it WWWsH and take it in the canyon down, NFBTFTW.” Follow the clues consecutively. So, to me (and probably most searchers) You have to start at the Warm waters spot and THEN “Take it in the canyon down to the hoB spot – That means that the hoB spot will be BELOW the WWWsH spot.

          But you are you, and I am me, and it is OK to read the poem differently. Good Luck to Ya’ JDA

          • I think that’s the logical way to read those lines (clues imo) in the poem JDA, except HOB may be higher in elevation than wwwh but I do think the “put in” place is below HOB and WWWH in elevation.
            I’m not sure I understand frank and a ton of others here.

            To convey thoughts from your mind and type it out so others can understand it is obviously very difficult for some here. It shouldn’t be that difficult.

    • Hi Frank,
      No it wasn’t me who said wwwh is south of wwwh.
      I may have said that “below” could mean “south”, but I am more inclined to believe it is referring to elevation.

  68. I’ve considered “Put in below the home of Brown” as one of the nine clues. In one of my thoughts, it’s part of a riddle which may describe a place on a map in Yellowstone. Discussions have been made about “put in” as being a nautical term. Home may be considered as a place of dwelling, no matter what it is. Brown has been discussed as possibilities of a person, place, etc., especially being capitalized. The place I’ve considered in Yellowstone is Bridge Bay campground.

    “Put in” as the nautical term could support the marina at this campground, as well as, “Put in below” for the “bridge”. “…home of…” could support the campground which is our temporary homes (tents). Bay is a color of brown, which could support why Brown is capitalized in the poem.

    I do not claim this to be the correct answer, but a possibility of how the poem may be looked upon while figuring out the clues. This is an opinion, offered as a thought.

    • “Put in below the home of Brown” as one of the nine clues – I agree
      “Put in” as the nautical term – I agree
      Home may be considered as a place of dwelling – I agree
      In Yellowstone – I agree but I don’t think the treasure is in YNP
      Nice thought offered but I don’t get the “Bay'” part.

  69. This page is now closed to new comments. To continue the discussion please go to the most recent Home of Brown page.

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